News is trickling out of Northern Ireland from WotW sources and it involves some BIG news regarding the area around Winterfell, and a photo has turned up on Imgur from the Northern Westeros storyline supporting this information. We also have a fun bit of info on the new character of Euron.
MAJOR SPOILERS after the jump!
As we’ve reported recently and as the new image above confirms (update: original was from Imgur but has since been taken down), there is going to be a battle sequence for control of not only Winterfell but the entire North. WotW sources are indicating that this battle will occur in episode 9 and it will be massive! They are also saying that many in the production crew are calling it the “Battle of 6 Armies”. Yes, you read that right. Game of Thrones is going to stage an epic battle heretofore unseen on either the big or small screen (eat that Hobbits!).
The photo shows several banners in this group and we have been able to identify at least two with speculation on a third one.
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The banners that we can identify are Stark and Mormont and we think the orange and black one is Hornwood.
As you can see in the close-up above the Direwolf and Mormont Bear are pretty clear. The orange and black one not only fits Hornwood colors but appears to have two thin legs that would match with the legs of the bull moose on the Hornwood sigil (see left). The Hornwoods are among the Stark’s principal bannermen and their land borders House Manderly and House Bolton. One can be fairly certain there is no love lost between Bolton and Hornwood so their siding with the Starks in the battle to defeat House Bolton and regain Winterfell makes sense. |
What are you thoughts on how things are shaping up in what appears to be an epic battle sequence? How do you think the other Northern Houses will line up? Let the speculation begin!
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And in other news, WotW sources have an interesting tidbit about the Iron Islands. As many of you know, there has been quite a bit of speculation on our discussion boards about the proper pronunciation of Theon’s uncle’s name–the new character Euron (original casting reported here). Sources are confirming that it is officially pronounced “your-on” and not “ur-on” as in urine.
UPDATE: Original Imgur photo taken down, we have replaced it with our copy of it.
Hodor!
HODOR!!
Edit: DAMN, maybe next time.
hoder!!
Nice to see that they have budget for this. Let it rock !
Urine!
Six armies. Holy fricking cow. The Starks and their Bannerman have to count as one, right? So that’d be the Loyal Northeners, the Wildlings, the Boltons and their bannermen… and? The Vale?
As for Euron, it had to be pronounced Your-on or You-ron, right? Did people pronounce it in any other ways?
Luka Nieto,
Not the vale, the WW will show up and the rest will have to unite against them
Hopefully someone will be able to identify the other sigil. It’s truly a mysery! Checkered white and blue, with yellow or golden circles inside the blue squares. Who the hell is that?
RobOSevens,
It still doesn’t add up to 6 armies. I guess each bannerman’s army will count as one…?
Luka Nieto,
The Wolves are coming!!!!
It’s about damn time! The Northern storyline seriously suffered without the other Northern lords so this is excellent news. And yeah, we haven’t seen any of this epic battle yet but I know that it’ll be better than anything seen in those shitty, shitty Hobbit movies. It’ll be refreshing to see a battle with actual stakes and where I actually give a shit what happens to the characters.
Great scoop and love how you guys have even gone to the extent of trying to identify the banners! Two things I noticed… That Mormont banner on the grounds is pretty bad quality (though maybe they’re not such great artists so far north). Also- there’s someone wearing a red garment on the right hand side…
So who are the 6 armies? I think the North will count as one (except Boltons). I think we can be fairly sure of:
1. Boltons
2. Starks (incl Mormonts, Hornwoods, Umbers…)
3. Wildlings
then we get speculative…
4. Freys?
5. Vale?
6. Tullies?
Some wild speculation on alternates
white walkers????
Daenerys’s troops????
Night’s watch???
Krakens???
I don’t think we have seen any evidence towards any, but somehow I doubt night’s watch will have much of an army left, it only has 100 men or so now anyway, does not count as an army to me…
Quiet weekend news wise, but amazing start to the week!!
This battle sounds incredible. Surely it will be better than The Hobbit’s due to that film’s excessive use of CGI.
Also it’s good (from my perspective) that they are going to pronounce it “your-on” as that is how I imagined it. the other way just doesn’t sound right.
Luka Nieto,
I pronounced it Oy-ron. And I still will.
Hmm six armies eh? (1) Boltons, (2) Anti-Bolton Northerners, (3) Jon Snow/Stark/Targ and his wildlings, (4) The Vale?, (5) maybe some force from the Riverlands?, (6) WHITE WALKERS?!?!
Honorable mentions: The Ironborn, Arya and Nymeria’s super pack, Children of the Forest?, Rickon-Shaggy Dog-Osha mini army? 😛
Freyjoy,
The funny thing is, there has always been a debate about who exactly the 5 armies in the Hobbit’s Battle of the Five Armies were (Are the eagles an army?). Good to know the tradition keeps going with Game of Thrones!
If we count the Starks and their allies as a single entity, and the Boltons and their possible bannerman as one (Freys, Karstarks?), then there are the wildlings that we know of and that’s about it. Three armies left? Maybe some bannermen of one or both of the sides arrives late, so they’re counted as another army. It could be the Vale and the Tullies for the Starks, the Freys and the Karstarks for the Boltons… Then there are other possibilities, of course, as you said: if it is relevant that Asha ends up in the North (instead of just a flimsy excuse to have a POV inside Stannis’s camp, which is what it looked like in ADWD), maybe it’s Yara and the Greyjoys. Or maybe the White Walkers come and change the meaning and sides of the battle very quickly.
Revealing the name of the battle is not so much a spoiler as an incredible mystery we aren’t likely to decipher unless we get pictures from each and every army. And deciphering mysteries is always fun!
SWEET!! Imaging Disney’s Thumper; being all excited, that is me right now….
Not just the banners, but the shields have symbols on them. Clearly a direwolf on one. Sorry…on mobile and can’t circle. There is also a green, grey and cream wood shield at the bottom of the photo, with a bear on it.
Omg!!! The Hype is real!! This woman. Needs 6 season right now!!!
RobOSevens,
No too early for the WW to breach. Jon, wildlings, loyal Stark banner man, Boltons, Vale, and maybe Iron Islands
Freyjoy,
The Karstarks, perhaps? Remember that they made up “half” of Robb Stark’s forces and returned North after Robb executed Lord Rickard.
I’m still wondering where Littlefinger comes into this exactly. Does he side with the Boltons? Will he pretend to side with the Boltons, then turn his cloak during the battle? Will he join the Starks instead? Or will he show up at the last second and wreck whoever is left standing at the end of the actual battle?
He’s a major wildcard and I worry he might spoil a potential Northern victory.
It’s too soon for White Walkers to show up. The Wall has to come down first, and that seems like it should be a season-ending cliffhanger.
My money’s on the Starks/bannermen, the wildlings, Boltons/banner men, the Vale, maybe Freys/their bannermen if they’re not wiped out yet, and a wild card. Maybe Blackfish with what’s left of the Tullys? Maybe Asha/Yara with her loyal Ironborn.
The metal shields, although turned oddly are all direwolves.
Luka Nieto,
You-ron. Thats how I always tought it’s said.
Don’t know where people came up with the other ways.
Hey, I’ve just realised something. If the Starks win, what will they do to Fat Walda and her baby?
Oi. They weren’t THAT bad. *whimpers*
But I do expect this to be an epic battle….six armies. Just mind blowing images at this moment.
Time to leave the Crannog and fight for your liege lords. Stark! Winterfell!
Could Tommen (Kevin, Jaime and Mace) send the entire faith militant North? SIX armies?!!!
Trying to get to six assuming bannermen count as part of one army… Stark, Bolton, Wildling, Vale… Could one of the Armies be Skagosi-return of Rickon? R’hllor fanatics behind Melisandre? Ironmen?
1. Stark (and loyalists)
2. Bolton (Frey’s, Karstarks?)
3. Wildlings
4. Vale
5. Nymeria (and co.)
6. White Walkers
JB,
In the show Rickon is most likely with the Umbers, not on Skagos.
JB,
Rickons not on Skagos.
ColdPie,
Most likely the bannerman count as an army. So we should count them too.
You guys realize the “6 Armies” thing is a reference to the Hobbit movie right? It won’t literally be 6 armies fighting. It’s just saying it will be a bigger battle than the one in The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies movie…
Hmm, I hope Cersie is still around at this point to receive the news of the return of the Starks.
“We’ve sacked Kingslanding before, and we will do it again.”
This could happen at the end of episode 9 or the battle could last 2 episodes like in season 4.
Maybe there aren’t really six armies in the battle… could be they are just using that name to “one-up” the Hobbit. Either way, it’s going to be huge! The needle has already snapped off my hype-meter.
exciting! I wish we had at least one battle sequence for the starks when Robb was still alive :/
Brandon,
I don’t think its too early for the Wall to fall. For all we know the Widlings may riot and wreck the NW leaving it even weaker.
Jon wakes up wildlings and remaining NW join him. Umbers/loyal north also on Jon’s team. Theres 3 they are definitely going after the Boltons so we are at 4. I don’t see the Vale unless LF hears whats goin on with Sansa and decides he wants her back. The Greyjoys will be going way off book if Euron is going North (they should be messing things up down south) Plus what motivation do the Greyjoy’s have in going north?
I know I’m still short an army if the WW show up so possibly they are counting the northern houses separately? We have new north lords being introduced this season.
It could be Umbers, Manderly’s, NW, Wildings, Boltons and then the WW.
Mihnea,
If the bannermen count each as an army, we’ve already got them all confirmed, through these pictures and the casting news… in fact, if each bannerman counts as one army, we’ve got too many armies:
1. Starks
2. Umbers.
3. Mormonts.
4. Hornwoods.
5. The unidentified sigil.
6. Wildlings.
7. Boltons.
8. Karstarks.
In my opinion people are reading way too far into the whole “battle of six armies” thing. It was stated that is what the crew is calling it so I took that to mean its just going to be massive and didn’t literally think there would be six armies. Either way, I guess its fun to speculate who the six will be!
Hm, you might not remember, but last we saw Littlefinger, he was about to invade the North with the Knights of the Vale, with the Crown’s permission.
The first 4 are easier to guess at (Boltons, Nothern Army, Wildlings, Vale), the last two I’m not sure.
-Iron Islanders?
-The Frey’s?
-The Tullies?
-Perhaps some southern army that makes an alliance with the Boltons, Little finger, or the Northerners?
-White Walkers? I doubt it. (Gods I hope not, for their sake. They aren’t ready for that)
With 2 seasons left after this, we can all but count out Dany being there. Way too early for that, and her story will more than likely deal with the Dothraki and a war in Mereen where she’ll show up with the horde to save the day. Probably a bit too early for White Walkers as well, but more likely than Daenerys
I am pretty sure it won’t be battle of the 6 armies. Just the Boltons vs Stark loyalists plus Jon. Maybe LF and KotV too, but I hope not.
The extras are just calling it that because of all the bannermen.
And it’s not Battle of the Bastards. It’s SNOWBOWL.
This makes no sense at all, urine is pronounced your-ine not ur-ine.
It feels like too big of an event to take place in the middle of a battle. Like we need the winners to think they have time to rest/regroup, then the Wall falls, and everyone has other problems. So end of episode 9 or the end of 10, sure.
The War of Five Kings
The Battle of Six Armies
The Seven Kingdoms
Making the Eight!
The Nine what?
This is huge news. Somehow I doubt that all Northerners would neatly line up to support the Starks. Which Starks? I wouldn’t be surprised if they split into three groups, some behind Rickon, some with Sansa as their figurehead, Jon with his own Wilding army. Then we have the Boltons. That would make four. Perhaps the Vale people and Tullys regrouping? It sounds like it will be a free-for-all mess! 😀
– Northen Army
– Boltons (with the help of the Karstarks maybe)
– Wildings
– Stannis’ sellswords (I remember the first report said they will be in the battle, maybe Davos will command them)
– Freys?
– Vale?
That’s six armies.
Six armies, wow.
Stark, Mormont, Hornwood vs Bolton and (maybe) Manderley, who betray them?
Vale has to be there somehow. I can’t believe Littlefinger doesn’t act. I just don’t know whom he would side with; probably with the ones most likely to win. That would be the Starks.
Anyhow, I see a red banner with a black bird of prey on it, which I can’t tie to any northern house. There’s also a weird blue-white one with gold circles.
Has anyone been able to identify the banner in the middle, blue, white and yellow disks? I could be some variation of House Tarth sigil. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Tarth
Are you sure about that?
Ramsay might take care of that even before the battle. :/
The Water Knight,
Ha! It could very well be House Tarth. It also has similar imagery to House Egen of the Vale, which makes sense if Littlefinger unites the Knights of the Vale with the Northern army against the Boltons. At any rate, I’ve looked at all the sigils (I think) and I’m pretty sure they just invented a sigil, or at least modified it so much that it’s not very recognizable.
RobOSevens,
If the WW breach the Wall and get South that fast then everything in the south would feel pointless. Dany still has to to try and win the Iron Throne, if the Wall is breached before she even steps foot in Westeros then she would just go North right away. I think you need to rewatch season 5 episode 7 and you’ll see what LF/Vale is doing
Why would they care about Fat Walda and her baby? If the Stark boys are alive, then the Boltons never had any claim on the North.
Maybe LF & the Vale will arrive to support the Boltons because he thinks Sansa is still in WF.
I thought this might be helpful…..maybe:
http://randomcelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Game-Of-Thrones-Wallpaper-House-Sigils-12.jpg
went to the wiki site- Heraldry – Game of Thrones. The description is closest to the banner of House Payne, from the Westerlands. Vassals of the Lannisters.
My options are 8 or more for the ´´6 armys´´: (can be some other northern houses)
1-Boltons
2-Wildlings
3-Umbers
4-Karstarks
5-Vale
6-Mormont
7-Hornwood
8-Freys
Im sure
1-Nights watch
2-White Walkers
3-Iron men
are out.
Seven Hells! So much new info all at once, and it’s killing me. I need something, anything, to tide me over until Season 6 starts. I know it’s too soon, but I’m *jonesing* for a teaser trailer, right now.
Quick guess: I’m betting the Vale is involved, with Riverlands/House Tully as a longshot inclusion.
igorcarvalho,
cut out the Vale and the Frey’s and you have your 6
Definitely all of the round shields are Starks. And of course, the one shield sitting on the ground is Mormon’ts bear, as well as several Stark and Mormont banners. The orange banners I’m not so sure are Hornfoot. The guy holding a banner who’s leg is partially obscuring the bear shield just does not look like a moose to me. I’ve zoomed in pretty close on the pic, and there’s just no way the edges of whatever the sigil is, is a moose– not even the rough outlines of antlers. Also, there’s a guy on a white horse in the middle background– to his left you can see a simple round shield with no house sigil on it. There’s just a simple round hand guard of different colored metal. Curiouser and curiouser…
Brandon,
This battle will probably be end of the season, hopefully Dany has made her decision/is about to come west by then.
Dany doesn’t need to win the IT it will be her’s once she shows up with an army and dragons to aid Jon and fight off the WW.
Cersei will destroy herself the south will be a mess when Dany arrives. The WW are coming there is no way they don’t make a major play or advance in someway this coming season.
Hibernate for two or three months and that should be more than enough for the first trailer to arrive 😉
Also, we may —may— get some very brief season six footage in HBO’s customary end of the year video. We did for season four, though I’m not sure about season five.
serum,
Or maybe you just can’t handle that this will be another thing spoiled from the next book and you are in denial .
The Water Knight,
Could it be a Vale banner? Pale blue and white are Vale colors, and the gold disc without sun rays could be the moon. No falcon, though.
The green and white one could be Manderly. I can’t see if there’s a Merman on it as it hangs straight down but I don’t see why not.
And yes, GoT, you let it rip! Fuck yeah, six armies. 😀
OMG … we are being spoiled with so much awesome news regarding season 6,
and there are still 2 – 2 1/2 months left of filming!!!
The next six months can’t pass soon enough!!! Aaaarrrgghhhh ………
The North Remembers!!!
No. But Bilbo counts for the Army of the Hobbits. Really, it was more of a commando squad. OK, a vigilante. But, you know, 4 armies and a vigilante just doesn’t fit many meters….
😀
Luka Nieto,
We got 2 scenes in HBO’s ”this summer” video. Cersei after her talk with Marg and Tyrion in Volantis looking at the red priestess.
red viper,
The time between the end of filming in December and the premiere in April is always the worst. The only thing to do is wait for trailers 😉
Well, the Boltons are granted Winterfell by the Crown: after all, it is the Crown’s to give and take. So, in the legal eyes of Westeros, the Boltons do have that claim.
Obviously, some people take issue with this: but that’s why revolutions and counter-revolutions happen.
Still, in principle, one would expect Tommen and his heirs to support Walda’s child in the future. That principle suffers from one key problem: Tommen probably does not have a future that includes any heirs!
People should really just let Mandarly go.
But it doesn’t suprize me, for goodness sake some people still hope for LSH
Hm, my guess:
1. Boltons
2. Karstarks/Bolton allies (approaching from another side most likely, so I’m guessing they’re a separate army)
3. Wildlings/NW/Jon Starkgaryen
4. Stark Loyalists/Umbers (perhaps with Rickon and/or Sansa)
5. The Vale
6. BwB/giant wolf pack/another army like the Tullys
By the way: is the same as the Battle of the Bastards?
From what I remember, we got Tyrion from the scene where he’s listening to the priestess, Jon in the boat either arriving at Hardhome or leaving Hardhome, and either something with Cersei, I think. So we’ll likely get something this year, unless HBO really doesn’t want to spoil things.
The more I look at the orange banner in the middle of the pic, the more I’m convinced it’s not a moose. It honestly looks like some sort of bird with its wings outstretched. The frizzy, upside down triangle-shaped thing would be the tail, and then on either side of the curves of the banner are the wings. Anybody remember which house has an eagle, phoenix, etc on an orange field?
RobOSevens,
I never said she had to win it, but she has to at least try for the story to make any sense. The Wall might come down this season, but that’s ep10 not ep9 and the WW are not getting that far South that quickly.
Luka Nieto,
I dread those months…
Wimsey,
Yes.
Hmm, six armies, that’s interesting.
So, it’s clear that there is 1.) Stark loyalists (Mormonts and Hornwoods confirmed and probably Umbers as well. 2.) Boltons and 3.) Jon + Wildlings.
What could the rest be? Vale forces is a good guess. Maybe Karstarks are allied with the Boltons, but come late to the battle. I wouldn’t rule out Freys either. That would already make six.
I don’t think WW army will be part of this battle, but it’s not impossible. What else? Someone mentioned Stannis’ sellswords, but I’d think if they are present they are part of Bolton army, dunno. Night’s Watch? Not much of an army. And I’m skeptical that the Ironborn would be interested in the North anymore.
So my guess would be: 1.) Stark loyalists 2.) Wildlings 3.) Boltons 4.) Vale army 5.) A Northern house coming late to the battle (Karstarks or Umbers) 6.) Freys
Wimsey,
Yes. Snowbowl. Bastardbowl. The Battle of the Bastards. The Battle of the Six Armies. It’s all about this battle currently being filmed in Saintfield.
Brandon,
RobOSevens,
It really is not too early, particularly if it is an end-of-the-year sort of thing. We are drawing to the end, after all.
Bolton
Northerners
Wildings
Night Watch?
Ironborn?
The Vale?
Mercenaries/Sellswords?
Called the “Battle of the _ Armies” earlier this month when first reports of the Saintfield battle emerged with Kit & Iwan present. Give me a cookie!
Fienix,
It’s not the whole moose, just the head and the antlers. Like this, from season one. They’ve kept the same design. So yeah, it is the Hornwood sigil.
Six armies fighting for WF? For the show, won’t it be just the Boltons & Freys vs everyone else? Will the ironborn really play a role? Wow, I’m gonna enjoy seeing the convergence of forces from all directions! However, there’s bound to be some casualties, possibly from “friendly-fire”.
I also doubt there will be Freys going north, especially with the Vale already on its way.
Luka Nieto,
Newbietothegame,
It’s Pod’s personal banner! 🙂
e: ohgod, Pod=Bilbo?
Hodor’s Bastard,
Most likely the banerman count to the numbers. Like Umber/Mormont,..etc.
I highly doubt any Frey will go north.
Luka Nieto,
Has LF ever participated in combat? Could an inexperienced individual all of a sudden lead an army in battle? I understand LF will probably send Vale troops North to cause havoc but surely they won’t be lead by LF? He would be cut in half in a few minutes. I expect Yohn Royce to lead the Vale troops and surely he would side with the Starks. How I hate LF, I don’t want to see him walk out behind the trees when the battle is over and pretend the victory is all due to him. And Sansa, she wouldn’t really trust him again, would she? She seemed to understand that LF had betrayed her by leaving her at the mercy of the Boltons. Surely, she will choose to remain with Jon if given the choice. I don’t foresee a Stark civil war, the siblings love each other and the pursue of power won’t change that. They are a pack and they know it.
Exit81,
Why couldn’t the Wall come down sooner in the series? That would definitely provide a good reason for Jon to be south in Stark gear.
So i’ve been pronouncing his name correctly all the time. Yay!
The battle is interupted by White Walkers, all armies unite to have a small chance against WW.
They finally realize that the real battle is not between humans, but between humans vs ww.
End of episode 9.
Imagine if all these armies meet up to battle each other and then the white walkers attack. Complete chaos would follow. Some men would probably stop fighting each other and charge the white walkers. Some would drop everything and run. Some would continue fighting men and white walkers alike. Oh boy make it happen.
Danny,
Littlefinger won’t lead them in battle, and he won’t fight himself, surely. Who said that? But he’s leading the Vale into the North, that’s for sure. Not all generals fight personally, and especially not Littlefinger. As Cersei pointed out when Littlefinger suggested she send him to retake the North, he is “known as a brothel keeper, not a military man.” Yet, she still gave him command.
igorcarvalho,
And which one of these armies will Jon Stark-Targaryen (f/k/a/ “Snow”) lead (given that the Stark sigil is clearly in view)?
Also why do people count the Starks in this army? They have no army. I would not count them here. Most likely it’s Umber/Mormont men flying stark banner.
My guess:
1. Wildlings
2.Umber.
3.Karstarks
4.Bolton
5.Mormont
6.Hornwood
There 6 armies.
Combine 2 armies, like the Mormonts/Hornwood or Umber/Karstark. And you have room for the misterious house.
This battle killing me… OMG! I can’t! 🙂
All I want during this battle is to see Ghost by Jon’s side and really f**k some people up
Mihnea,
That will probably be it.
1.Stark loyalists
2.Bolton loyalists
3.Wildlings
4.Littlefinger
5.Greyjoys
6.White Walkers
This sounds much more logical though.
A man needs this to be a two hour episode.
davy,
Greyjoys in the north sounds logical too you?
Or WW? I doubt there will be a full invasion this season, or earliest possibility is in EP10.
But I have little doubt there will be no WW in THIS battle.
But even with that list, it is still Boltons vs everyone else, right? It’s not like each army has their own agenda.
Lisa0527,
Because the Wall falling negates everything going on in the South. There’s no sense in the show destroying the Wall that early, it changes the priorities of the show and we’ve still got one or two seasons left.
People are making some weird predictions… when we know there are two more seasons coming. No way we’re going to get some big battle that results in some kind of happy ending. Whatever happens in this battle, the outcome is going to be terrible… somehow.
What house has Golden Discs on a Blue Field? Left center banner, I’ve looked thru heraldry wiki and nothing as of yet.
HQ large imgur image
Hodor’s Bastard,
They are still armies. I don’t think on wich side they fight counts.
The only major battle in the North that doesn’t involve the Walkers would be the battle of the bastards. Late in the season makes sense, as Jon needs to be resurrected, the situation at Castle Black has to be solved, and Jon has to put his forces together. So imo this is that battle.
The Hornwood sigil is not the bull moose with legs, it’s just its head.
That’s how the show has made their sigil previously as you can see here:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/e/ef/House_Hornwood_tourney.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130102174908
And the unidentified sigil looks a lot like House Payne, the house of Podrick Payne and Ser Ilyn Payne, bannermen of the Lannister. Which is quite odd:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37200000/Game-of-Thrones-game-of-thrones-37280405-1600-1200.jpg
This is the perfect opportunity to bring the crannogmen into play. How come no one thinks the Reeds are one of the armies? If Ned taught Robb the worth of Howland Reed than he taught Jon too.
Robb Snow,
He’ll play each side off against each other as he always has. I see him sort of like Lord Stanley at the Battle of Bosworth – he’ll wait at a distance with his army then sweep down to finish off one side or the other.
I do have a feeling that with the North presumably being regained for he Starks (and Sansa or Jon’s possible installation as Queen/King in the North?) his plans will finally begin to unravel, though.
What about House Lefford for the blue and yellow banner? That would be very interesting indeed, as it would mean the Lannisters have joined the coalition.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/7/71/House_Lefford.PNG
The lack of snow nags at me, regardless of Shireen’s sacrifice. The Long Night approaches! Winter is coming! It’ll probably be a post-production thing…maybe?
RpCola,
Because the battle wil most likely be fought north of WF? And the Cranongman are not know for their fighting capabilites, especially in open field. They are more like guerrila fighters, so I wouldn’t count them as an ”army”.
I would want the Frey’s punished first before the battle begins.
Hodor’s Bastard,
we saw snow in the north last season, we will see snow this season.
So… basically all against the Boltons. (Why the Freys could be there? We were talking about Walder, the last of the last man and one of the most cautious…).
I just hope they create a proper set up to all this, (not forgetting to do some politics too). If not, it will felt a bit weird if suddenly all northern (where were this people all this time? Including the Karstarks, who “betrayed” Robb)/Vale/wildings troops just get along after a lot of killings and animosity to each other to massacrate the Boltons when Jon pops out like “I’m the Chosen One Messiah, follow me to die! #Yolo (**add epic music, epic speech, epic sword and epic Ghost in epic snow scenary**).
PS: I don’t imagine any scenary with the Greyjoys involved, unless is some kind of “we’re going to sack the death people”.
Maybe the 6th army is Brienne with Podrick LOL. Gwen said she was on a battle or something like that…
Wimsey,
Yes it is too early. The WW reaching Winterfell before Dany even steps foot in Westeros is too early. Plus if the WW show up to this Battle everyone would be absolutely slaughtered. How many VS swords are involved in this battle? 2 with Longclaw and Lady Forlon if it’s even in the show. How many Obsidian weapons? 0 because people don’t use them since they are very brittle. Everybody involved in the Battle would die by the WW and that’s just not happening. Plus we know that Jon will most likely win the Battle.
I think we need to keep an open mind to the possibility that this isn’t the battle for Winterfell. It may be a battle of the (6?) united armies of Westeros against the Others. Boltons, Starks, Wildlings, Vale, Lannister, Nights Watch (remnants of). In this scenario I would guess the Wall has already come down, making it crystal clear that the real threat is the Others, not each other.
Heh, really, it sounds like the “Battle of More Armies than Tolkien Had: nyah nyah!”
The Lannisters sacked King’s Landing, not the Starks.
Probably. Actually filming in snow is pretty damn difficult, or so I always have read. At this point, I suspect that it is easier to “winterize” later than during filming.
Osentalka,
Depends on where you are from. I’m from the southeastern US and the u is very pronounced there. We don’t say ‘your-ine’ we say ‘yeur-ren”.
Lisa0527,
Well that could be it. On the other hand we still have 2 more seasons to go, after this one.
So no the WW geting trough the wall this season is ver, very unlikely
Mihnea,
Sorry but yes they do,otherwise like others have said it’s only really 2 factions: The Stark Loyalists and Bolton Loyalists and the Wildlings which you could argue they would fit in the first .
I want that Bolton X removed from the WF model (top pic, that we see during the opening credits) by the end of S6. My blood boils when I see it.
Fedejru,
Great find! No memory at all when this sigil was presented in the show before, but with this Info one can very much verify the identity of the orange banners. What looked like the wings of an eagle first is very likely part of the moose antlet:
HORNWOODS CONFIRMED!!!!
Brandon,
I really don’t think Dany has to try and win the throne before dealing with the OThers. If she shows heads for the west at the end of next season and the others make it south of the wall.
Then season 7 Dany intends to take over but when she shows up there are more important things than wining the throne, like fighting the evil ice zombies. When she joins Jon in leading the fight against the Others then people will follow her and the throne will be hers (and Jon’s maybe) after they win.
This is the same reason Jon’s potential Targ heritage won’t matter to most people he will come to lead and rule by merit. He saves the day fights the Others etc people will follow him, only a few will know of his true heritage.
There is no reason why it cannot happen after this, particularly in the last episode. The Walkers will not sweep south on some blitzkrieg: they have been very slow and methodical so far.
All of that written, I wonder if the Others know that most of Westeros denies their existence? Of course, petty things like humans might be beneath their interest, so they simply might not care anymore than most people care about how other primates organize and behave.
Osentalka,
Think of it as “Yoor-on” vs “Yiur-on”
Marcus,
If they don’t have the same chain of command. If they don’t arrive at the same time, does it really matter who they fight for?
They would still be 6 individualle armies.
There’s no point in debating this tough, in my opinion this makes more sense then the Freys or Greyjoys….
I always read it as ‘Oy-ren’ in my head 🙁
The one reason to think that Daeny will be Queen is Melisandre. She has seen that the Chosen One is a monarch. She put one and one together, and concluded that this meant that Stannis would be King. However, as the clues pointing to Stannis being AA actually fit Daeny much, much better, and as this is the crown that Daeny would wear, then it is very possible that Mel has seen that Daeny has this crown before the end.
I do wonder if Jon will have his own Crown of some sort: particularly if he will be acclaimed King (Formerly) Beyond the Wall by the Wildlings or something like that. This would be a nice ironic answer to the clues with which R’hllor has taunted poor Mel.
Sue, is this pilot script legit?
http://goodinaroom.com/wp-content/uploads/Game-of-Thrones-pilot-script-Winter-Is-Coming.pdf
Wimsey,
I don’t want to argue with you story-wise. Alltough I find myself agreeing with you prety often.
But do you really think we will get 2 Seasons, S7-S8, with the WW already south?
For me the WW breaking through in S7 seams more likely.
You could have Buckets and Wulls and so forth as a separate northern army fighting alongside the noble North army.
thremnir,
That makes no sense to me,why would Eu be pronounced Oy all of the sudden . Then again i guess it depends which country you are and what language you speak .
Gravemaster,
Thats from S1, why would it matter?
Kosis,
Too much. I don’t know a soul who would look at that name and pronounce it as “urine”. Such a weird thing to write!? You just brought it home & made me laugh, thanx.
Well the large black animal appears to be a rampant variant of the Mormont bear, and that’s Hornwood (they tend to use a moose head and not full animal in TV series)
probably a Vale banner but can’t tell…
Gold circle on blue, quartered, with white escutcheon….who could that be?
Marcus,
I also find it strange… It never crossed my mind that ”Eu-” can/should be pronunced as ”Oy-”
Anyway, I’m glad I got it right. You-ron sounds better, in my opinion.
Although those wights were definitely “blitzkrieging” at HH! They were trained by the zombies from World War Z!
Seriously, I fear that Sam will learn about the WW -Wall relationship/spell via Oldtown material at about the same time the WWs reach/breach the wall. It will be interesting how that sequence is done and how any sort of preventative/helpful info reaches the north from that point onward.
Gravemaster,
It’s from the original pilot that didn’t air i think,the one which had a different Dany and Catelyn .
Lannister (and Lion-loyal) armies are a wildcard here. Didn’t LF tell Cersei last season that the Bolton’s were taking control of the North via Sansa? If I recall correctly that did not sit well.
If news of additional Stark(s) resurfacing reaches KL that might be enough for Cersei to send soldiers north
Lisa0527,
It is too early for that. My bet is that some of these groups (e.g, the Lannisters) will be pretty much extinct by then. One of the big issues that should come up this year and next is the southerners flat out rejecting the stories about the White Walkers returning.
Now, the Wall might come down to close the season. That would make much of next year the Walkers slowly taking over the North while the rest of Westeros settles its civil war and wakes up to the real problem. But this is not the Fields of Morannon yet: that will be near the climax of the series.
Dany would absolutely has to deal with problems in South and making progress towards Irone Throne, before turning her eyes to North and WW. Like it was in the Hotu scene. So close to the throne but at the last minute she goes to the Wall.
It’s not going to be that easy. I don’t expect a clean victory for Daeny, Jon , Tyrion and their coalition against the Others. Some sort of a compromise might be reached. The ending is supposed to be pretty much the same. And with IT again pretty much everybody expects Daeny to end being THE Queen, but i’m not so sure. As good, as it sounds…something tells me that we will witness an unlikely winner at the end (if being Queen or King of a devastated Westeros count as a victory).
Luka Nieto,
No, I still completely disagree. Look the fuzzy upside down triangle shape… that would appear at the bottom of the sigil, so unless they added a beard to the moose head, I still don’t think in any way it can be a moose, period.
Where did she seem to understand that? And according to the writer and actors, Littlefinger didn’t betray her, as he didn’t know about Ramsay (and by that same logic, otherwise the plan made sense, which I don’t agree with, but that’s the show’s view).
As far as the Vale’s participation, I agree that, assuming the show remains consistent with what we’ve already seen, Lord Royce and co. would not be interested in fight Stark-aligned armies. I would assume, for that matter, that Littlefinger would have to give them some kind of spiel about how the Boltons (or whoever) kidnapped Sansa to explain why she isn’t with him anymore, assuming the show explains that.
As far as the Vale’s participation in this battle goes, we don’t know of any actors that might be involved in the Vale plot filming at Saintfield. Vansittart isn’t filming again until December. But it’s also possible that the Valemen will be the last-minute cavalry in this fight and any subsequent scenes with actual characters (since Littlefinger and Royce aren’t combatants) would be filmed separately later.
Wimsey,
I do believe that Dany will be Queen just that its not necessary for her to win the throne before she fights the Others.
Mihnea,
South of the Wall and South are 2 very different things. The North itself is almost as large as the rest of the 7K combined. If the WW breach the Wall there is a ton of territory to get through before they get to the real South.
Plus look at how long it has taken them to make moves, so far 5 seasons and only 2 major engagements, so even if they breach the Wall they will not be in King’s Landing super fast.
I think they could be one of the armies, like Frodo&co in LOTR, and the mysterious banner be a mix of payne and tarth…
I’ve always thought that the North is basically destroyed in S6, and S7 is Dany and her dragons bringing the battle to the WW. This battle is the end of S6. So 2 seasons to defeat the resurgent WW doesn’t seem too long to me. S8 will need some “aftermath” time.
Fienix,
It’s definetly a moose head with antlet, check the link above.
He might: but how will learning about it help prevent anything being done about it?
Ultimately, there are a couple of openings here. One, Thorne’s group clearly does not buy the Hardhome story: yes, Thorne might accept that the Walkers are out there, but he (and others) clearly reject the idea that they are a greater danger to Westeros than are the Wildlings. Now, I’m not sure how they could prepare for what is coming: but it’s pretty clear that they will be even less prepared than they could be. Two, the loyalists vs. nationalists might so decimate the NW that even if the Loyalists win and try to prepare for the Others, there will not be much that they can do.
The fact that Jon is with the Wildlings makes me wonder what is going to happen. This suggests that the Wildlings do not linger by the Wall, and thus no alliance with the NW against the Others is forged. That would suggest that the Wildlings do not eradicate the Nationalists. Some hints about what Ben Crompton is doing might provide some major hints: have we heard anything?
I do still wonder if, somehow, Ramsay winds up being responsible for doing something that lets the Walkers through in his quest to get back his bride and his Reek.
Six armies? Stark, Bolton, vale-men, wildlings, white walkers. The last one could be either Greyjoy, Frey or Nights Watch i guess.
Luka Nieto,
I guess what I was trying to get at is that given the impossibility of LF actually leading the Vale troops, then those troops respond to and are obliged to their commander in the field. I’m guessing Yohn Royce here whose liege lord is not LF but Robin Arryn. Robin Arryn who is related by blood to Sansa, Rickon, Bran and Arya. The Vale wanted to declare for Robb and Lysa wouldn’t let them. If the Vale continues holding that position, then their support is for the Starks and LF has nothing to do in that case. By supporting the Starks, the Vale is already declaring its region against King Tommen. Littlefinger ‘acquired’ the Vale by marrying Lysa but the heir was always Robin and even Sweetrobin’s possible death would not make LF Lord of the Vale. All this to say that I don’t see how LF could waltz in there and take control of Winterfell, not without Sansa’s cooperation. The North will not allow a non Stark in Winterfell. LF is playing a dangerous game there. Sansa has to be his undoing.
Where do people get this idea of Greyjoys in the North??
Sean C.,
I have a question for you. Is Sansa the only character you care about in the whole series,because it seems everytime someone mentions her you jump right in with your complaints and grievences about what the show has done to her or whatever ? Anyway,let’s say if she dies in the future,would you continue watching the show or reading the books,i hope you don’t get upset because i was simply curious about this .
I think I’ve found it:
It can’t be Tarth because we’ve seen that before in the TV version and it has pink in it. And it isn’t checkered like House Payne but quartered (the colors are wrong anyway).
Now consider that the TV series doesn’t always use the exact same design as in the novels, but often simplifies them (the Tully heraldry actually has alternating red and blue lines in the novels).
Also consider that when they use war banners the TV series has invented escutcheon colors for some of them (Stark banner doesn’t have a green “tail” on it in the novels). So at the very least it’s gold on blue, MAYBE with white as a third color – sometimes they’ve swapped the colors though (they inverted the Frey colors). And other times they’ve simplified the images.
The only heraldry scheme from the novels that *even remotely* matches this one is House Musgood.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Musgood
Quartered with gold pavillions on blue squares alternating with white squares that have green wreaths in them.
I propose that this is a simplified House Musgood banner: with the wreathes taken out and the pavillions turned into just circles.
*****What increases my suspicion of this is that House Musgood *is* a House from the Stormlands, and was *mentioned by name* in a previous episode as part of Stannis’s remaining army, back in episode 4.3 “Breaker of Chains”:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Musgood
the Season 5 finale also said that half of Stannis’s army simply fled, so they’re still remnants around somewhere in the North who can be rallied.
this…this seems the best explanation so far. What does everyone else think?
No: but the story is not going to go back to “small potatoes” such as who is King/Queen of Westeros after Ragnarok is done. Settling the small issue and then the large issue would provide much more drama. The Others vs. R’hllor vs. humanity vs. who knows what else plot should be the climax of the whole series, I think.
I just Googled those colours for fun and the closest thing I could find was an Argentinian polo shirt (2nd row). I doubt anyone would be expecting them to show up and they’d bring well trained horses and some nifty maneuvering skills. Plus a polo mallet over the head would be a pretty effective weapon 😀 Also, not a White Stripes fan but surely someone can work their song “seven nation army” into this somehow? Need April NOW!
Dipshit,
War of the Ninepenny Kings.
RobOSevens,
Let’s just agree to disagree. IMO the chances of the WW being involved in this battle are 0 as it just doesn’t make any sense. I would put money on this statement. There’s still 2 more season after this, so there’s plenty of time.
Brandon,
Fully agree with you here.
I’m going to Northern Ireland in a week. Any idea what town they’re filming near? Not wanting to crash the set, just thought it would be cool to take a peek while passing through.
Marcus,
I responded to the point because it’s relevant to the discussion about armies and sides in this thread. There hasn’t been any indication in the show that Sansa blames Littlefinger for her situation, and the writers and actors have indicated that in their view he is not to blame. I didn’t say anything more about the story than that. And no, she’s not the only character I care about, nor would her death mean I wouldn’t watch.
Unrelatedly, on the subject of the armies (assuming, as we’ve tended to, that each of the six armies is a distinct faction), it’s possible that the Karstarks will be a quasi-uncommitted faction at the start of the battle, akin to the Freys prior to the Battle of the Trident, or, to cite an historical example from the war that inspired GRRM to write the series, the Stanley family at the Battle of Bosworth Field.
The Dragon Demands,
That’s certainly an interesting possibility, though I think that would raise an obvious problem, that being, if the deserted elements of Stannis’ army are a continuing part of the story (as opposed to one of those armies that wanders off and is never heard from again, a la Rodrik’s army in season 2 or the Karstark army in season 3), then the other characters should learn what really happened with Shireen, which I’m pretty sure the whole scenario was laid out to prevent — simply because it would probably make Melisandre’s continued participation in Jon’s story untenable.
Im upset – I want grand ice spiders!!
Luka Nieto,
The Water Knight,
Newbietothegame,
Lisa0527,
Well, I first thought Tarth but then with the mention of Payne, I thought maybe that too. However, here’s what we know. Brienne is there with Pod–so both are a potential. But Pod’s family lands are in the Westerlands and Brienne’s family lands are in the Stormlands, neither close to the North. Pod is a squire to Brienne and so they wouldn’t use his banner. Brienne is sworn to Sansa (through her mother) sooooo my best guess it is Tarth, Brienne being the head of that house in that situation and a true knight (sortof?). Although unless that’s Pod holding the Tarth banner, how would Tarth be able to get men to the North that fast to carry her banner UNLESS they are survivors from Stannis army–House Tarth originally declared for Renly but then would have thrown their support to Stannis after Renly’s death…. But if not actual troops from Tarth and if not Pod carrying it for her, then I suppose she could honor someone from another house to carry it for her….I don’t know enough about the rules of who gets to carry ones banner.
More questions than answers it seems! 🙂
Not sure if anyone mentioned it but maybe the stark army will be led by or in name of Rickon or Sansa, and Jon’s army is the wildling army, making those already 2 different armies
Luka Nieto,
Like the post says some people pronounce it like you-r-in (said quickly) however thats sounds like urine so its a pretty terrible name.
I don’t remembere where but in a rumor-spoiler post somewhere I thought I read somethig about Asha-Yara running away from kingsmoot…Could be that she go back North… and by the way I think that if WW were involved they’d come up with somethig other than “six armies” or “battle of the bastars”.
If we had only 7 season I’d say yes but with 8 is too soon for the wall to go down.
“Oy” is the German pronunciation for “eu.”
Freyjoy,
)everyone keeps forgetting Stannis sellswords. I think Davos will lead them. That will be one army.
Wimsey,
And the problem with childish taunting is…… 😉
SlayerNina,
I don’t see the Frey’s being there either. They’ll hole up in their twin towers and wait until the victors emerge as they’ve always done. AND I think
The Dragon Demands,
Well, Tarth is a much bigger house name, they supported Renly originally, would have put their support behind Stannis once he was dead and would be in that area just as much as Musgood would. And since Brienne is there, it makes sense to use Tarth and not Musgood. So my bet is still on Tarth.
darksianna,
We really don’t have much information on the Greyjoy plotline after the Kingsmoot. Asha is in the North post-Kingsmoot in the books, but the way the storyline has been shuffled around means that her presence in the North in the books occurred prior to the events being depicted in the current storyline, which has largely moved on past that part of it. So I’m not sure, if she ended up back in the North, why she’d be leading men to this battle. It seems like she’d be better served staying out of it and letting everybody else kill each other.
Ser Pounce The Puss Who Was Promised,
Why would Stannis’ sellswords join Davos? They deserted, and Davos has no money to pay them. Probably they’d seek to commandeer Stannis’ ships and leave. Plus, like I said above, the sellswords having interactions with the rest of the cast would be a potential problem in that it would get word of Shireen’s burning out, when I expect Melisandre probably has to be kept around a while longer (per past predictions, at least long enough to meet Arya, which definitely won’t happen this season).
Wimsey,
I don’t see who ends up running the 7K after the war with the Others is over as small potatoes. But even if it is it will be a nice wrap up LotR style to see who ends up ruling post the battle good vs evil
Yeah, there is not much Sam could do…normally. But I have a feeling that contained in the Oldtown vaults is some “Hail Mary/SOS” info that may link with the weirnet, allowing info to travel quicker (weirwoods = ansibles?), in order to spread urgent msgs across the kingdoms.
I hope Dolorous Edd does get some daunting “Prep the Wall” tasks after the nationalists are dealt with, but I am more concerned with how the northern houses will deal with the WW threat (after this assuming 6 army battle)! If Jon is victorious in this 6-army battle, then the WW threat may be credibly accepted and the 8000 year-old tales of how the First Men, CotF and giants defeated the Others (without dragons) will be revisited with vigor.
Sean C.,
UNLESS the Stannis deserters presence is reintroduced as a way to set up Melisandre’s downfall.
I think this is going to be the real battle of ice that has not happened yet in the books. They pulled up Stannis’ storyline to get rid of him and now they will likely spend all season working up to this battle positioning all the various armies of the North. I don’t expect we will see Dany or the Lannister/Tyrell armies as the North will deal with the Boltons. Last we heard Littlefinger he promised Cersei to take the Vale armies North to deal with Sansa/Roose so I expect them to be a part of this battle. With a whole extra season I agree we won’t see WW in this battle. Either way it sounds epic!!
Funny you’d say that.
Sean C.,
It could be my interpretation of her actions. She of course doesn’t have a soliloquy in which she laments LF’s betrayal. But she plans to escape. Even before the Myranda splash incident, her plan is to escape. To seek Brienne’s help. Brienne whom she told to go away in front of LF. LF asked her to wait for him, Sansa was not willing to. She had already survive the rape which was the worst thing to endure given her value to the Boltons. Ramsay was not going to kill her or mutilate her, not until she produced an heir. She could have waited for LF, she chose not to. That is why I think she felt betrayed by LF. I don’t care what LF knew or didn’t about Ramsay. The ahole forced, yes forced, Sansa to surrender herself to the very people who murdered her mother and brother. Sure, he told her it was her choice but really was there a different choice for her? Sansa is, I think, smart enough to understand that LF put her carelessly at grave risk.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Excellent theory and along the lines of what I was thinking too. Sam FTW! (for the win, not watch, hehe)
Dame Pasty,
We know that Arya has to meet Melisandre, and since that seems highly unlikely to happen this season, I don’t think she’s done with the Northern story yet.
Danny,
Sansa didn’t know it was Brienne. It was some random Northern lady who promised her unspecified aid. And while she departed from Littlefinger’s plan, his plan had already gone off the rails, since she was clearly unable to have any influence with the Boltons, so her only bet was to get out and join Stannis (or whoever).
I agree that in reality there was no meaningful choice, given the situation, but the writers and actors have said otherwise (Gillen, in particular, said that he thinks that had Sansa said no, Littlefinger would have abided by that).
The guy who posted the pic on reddit also posted these comments:
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/3mdr09/jon_snow_lives/cveow4l?context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3mdoto/all_spoilers_huge_spoilers_come_with_the_newest/cvers37?context=3
So Starks/Mormonts/Vale vs Boltons/Karstarks/Umbers then ?
Sue, is there any indication there are literally 6 armies?
Because while that seems cool, it almost sounds like a one-upping of the Battle of 5 Armies, ie ours is much bigger than yours Tolkein! Not that there are literally 6 distinct armies.
Also, 6 distinct armies doesn’t make sense. More likely, 6 groups who have particular, if aligned interests.
Starks – Jon/Sana?
Umbers – because they’re sheltering Rickon
Boltons
Wildlings
etc
Literally getting to 6 distinct armies requires factors that make no sense – like why the hell would Littlefinger allow himself to get involved in a massive ugly battle for Winterfell with Vale forces? He’s must more likely to sit it out and see how to manipulate the remains/what happens.
Sean C.,
That doesn’t mean they can’t hang that gun on the Wall this season though. The Tarth soldiers (who I think are the white with blue background and yellow circle banner) could tell Brienne and/or Pod who will keep that knowledge until next Season. In the meantime Brienne would probably show great distaste for Mel and therefore distrust of Jon, which he won’t understand the reason for….until next season.
I think it is Boltons,Wildlings,Umbers,Karstarks,Mormont,Hornwood. The first three from the spoilers here seem to be sure and the other three make sense reading the comments above. Although i am not sure that sworn houses to a house count as an individual army…..
If according to the spoilers the 10th episode has Jaime and Arya in Riverlands, then the Lannister army stays there with Jaime and i believe Nymeria’s pack stay with Arya….. Logically Freys doesn’t move either….. although i believe that if Boltons are going for a big fight.. they would ask for Frey and Vale help…..
I don’t think we will see any WW in this… an actor said season’s end is very shocking so this is either a big death ( i hope not again) or WW coming out in the last episode and not earlier.
Tom,
So they had The One True King of Westeros become a daughter burner only to give Lord Snow something to do this season? I wanna punch something.
Doesn’t make sense. If they fight openly the Boltons, then they clearly don’t give a shit about the Crown and who they might or might not support. And Fat Walda and her baby don’t matter at all.
Nadia,
That’s just what I was thinking. Bot6A is just a cool name for the extras, so that they can talk about the battle without having to spoil anything.
Just a thought:
Normally it is considered army when follows one leader or come separately to the battle so:
1: Jon and some Night Watchmen
2: Tormund and the Wildlings
3: Roose and the Boltons
4: Umber (Rickon) and some other bannermens
5: LF and the Vale
6: SheBear as a separate Army or Ironmans or common people from inside/outside the castle or Brienne leading wat’s left of Stannis Army
Apollo,
That is probably a crew person in a red jacket on the right hand side. They still look to be setting up a shot. Good to have them in bright colors, I imagine, so they don’t end up in it. Could that be Jon Snow on the horse in front with his man-bun?
I think they will use Fat Walda and her baby to remind us how evil Ramsay really is before his time on the show ends.
WTF: According to this insider leak, HBO is doing a GoT movie, and could be just a one shot, with some of the GoT characters. Testing the waters film?, to see how successful GoT films might be.
GoT movie leak?
Nadia,
I’ll answer your questions and Sue can chime in if she so desires. I personally think the 6 army thing is a metaphor–there are six or more Houses involved. I think the crew probably meant it as an homage to LOTR and not a “nyah nyah” type of thing. I put the “eat it Hobbit” thing in the article because I thought it was funny. It was just a joke because I am a big Tolkien fan.
Now as for Littlefinger….The most important incident that determined his path in life was being rejected by Catelyn and being cut almost in half by Brandon Stark in a duel. It makes perfect sense that he would head north to take WF–it’s the ultimate revenge, isn’t it? I think he thought he could have Sansa marry Ramsay, he’d do away with Ramsay at some point and then marry Sansa himself and take WF that way. Now that she’s gone and his alliance with the Bolton’s ruined, he will think he needs to take it by force. However, I don’t think he will necessarily join in the battle. At least not initially. There are three possible scenarios. 1) I think he’ll get there and see the ongoing fight and wait until it becomes clearer who is winning and then join in on the side of the winner so he can make the best of a bad situation. 2) He gets there and has to argue with Yohn Royce as to wether to join the fight or not. Royce will want to join on behalf of the STarks thinking he’s helping Sansa (who may or may not be there). LF will advise that they wait and Royce won’t. 3) Barring 1 or 2 happening, he might while they’re all fighting, go around them and take WF on his own. BUT since we know Mel sees herself on the battlements and Bolton banners burning, then we can assume Jon will return to WF and LF won’t take WF behind everyone’s back. So it will be something like 1 or 2.
Nadia,
Well, hypothetically, the Valemen have minds of their own. Seeing as Littlefinger is posing as a Stark ally with them, it would be difficult to keep them away from the battle if they heard about it once they arrived in the North.
The Vale’s participation would pose other problems, though, especially numerically. The Valemen alone should easily outnumber the Boltons, even if it was only a fraction of the region’s armed forces.
Tywin of the Hill,
I also believe that is what its called by the crew. Maybe tongue in cheek after the Hobbit movie. I don’t expect 6 different armies.
Few more pics from Riverrun set
http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/whats-on/film-tv-news/game-thrones-filming-brings-touch-10151829#ICID=sharebar_twitter
I’m really wondering who will be leading the Stark family. If Bran is still beyond the Wall, that means its either Sansa, Rickon, or Jon. I can’t see Rickon doing it to be honest. I can see Jon leading the forces for Sansa but I honestly don’t know if he’d be the head of the house because he did state that Sansa was next in line. I don’t know who is next in line for that house – assuming there is no will from Robb hidden somewhere – since the show is not even pretending that the boys are thought to be dead. I’d like to see Jon and Sansa united to fight for the Stark family but I honestly don’t think Sansa can unite the North enough to lead them considering that she married a Lannister and a Bolton – would the Northern families hold that against her? Or would they be more loyal to her than Jon as he is a bastard? Bran & Rickon are still children and unlikely to return to Winterfell this season. And who knows if Arya will return this season. Now that Stannis isn’t around to legitimize Jon, its going to be a case of who the North will follow.
The important thing is THE WOLVES WILL COME AGAIN!
I hope that my girl Brienne is there to fulfill her oath to Catelyn and not still waiting on that candle! Honestly I hope she and Jaime reunite and help the Starks conquer the Boltons. I want to believe that no matter his loyalties to his sister – Jaime will fulfill his oath to Lady Stark finally as well.
Marcus,
hahahahah, thats good stuff! I honestly don’t care about spoilers and thats why I visit this site every day. Good try though!
Fienix,
Regarding the eagle you theorize: There’s a Dornish house with a sigil of an eagle grasping a baby in its talon, established in show canon. I think it might have been house Blackmont, but I’m not sure. Actually, when I first saw the orange banner, I thought Martell.
Tywin of the Hill,
So it was okay when he burnt his brother-in-law and other loyal follows over a disagreement of religion, but burn his daughter?! That’s a step too far. That’s some pretty shaky reasoning there.
All that aside though….the truth is that Stannis will die in the books and so will Shireen and she will probably die by burning. Directly by Stannis hand? Maybe not. But certainly as a result of his actions (domino effect). And then with his absence, someone needs to consolidate the North and GRRM always meant it to be Jon. In which case the story shortened that storyline. That’s all. I’m okay with that. You as a big Stannis supporter are not. But saying it was only to give Jon something to do? That’s like saying GRRM did it to give Jon something to do–one of his main protagonists. The story is always supposed to give the main protagonists something to do otherwise there is no story. Stannis role in furthering the story is essentially done in TWOW and done in S5 on the show and the other main protagonists have to continue the story. It’s as simple as that and not some vast conspiracy to besmirch your hero.
tyjon,
What the hell? That’s a crazy scoop if it turns out to be true. So eight seasons and then a movie to end it? I’m okay with that, as long as the movie comes out the next year after season 8.
Matt,
Not to end it, to show back story
Oh, I really enjoy your lines of thought on the matter as well! I simply cannot wait to read/see what Sam will uncover in Oldtown/Citadel…if he survives “Pate”! 🙂
Tywin of the Hill,
Are you for real? Please tell me you’re just being facetious and aren’t as creepily obsessed with Stannis as your posts on this site suggest.
Tom,
I hope something causes his plans to unravel… preferably Sansa driving a dagger through his heart.
Why do you think that? The crown gave them the north – not Winterfell. In the books, they had to marry Ramsay to fakeArya to inherit Winterfell and gain the loyalty of the Northern families but it seemed clear that the Boltons didn’t automatically get Winterfell. In the show, Ramsay married Sansa for the same reasons. For some reason, the crown didn’t give them Winterfell outright but they gave Riverrun to the Freys. I don’t understand the logic behind that. Maybe because the Freys were legally family to the Tullys through the marriage of Edmure and Roslin but that still doesn’t make much sense. I think mainly they went to war to conquer the Blackfish and Jaime negotiated a truce using Edmure – the true heir – was the only reason Riverrun was given the Freys.
Luka Nieto,
That’s why it was so great to have the IMAX experience in January … I really hope they do it again this year!
Stannis fans are a different breed. I used to think they were just pretending, but it seems they actually take this stuff seriously… {shudder}
Still confused as to why people think it sounds like urine! Must be American pronounciation.
Simeon,
I know what sort of shenanigans Stannis, err… fans can get up to. I just like to think at least some of them are being facetious, or exaggerating their admiration somehow. Perhaps I’m being too optimistic.
Dame Pasty,
Oh, I see. Well I’d prefer the show’s story to conclude on the small screen anyway.
Matt,
The way the article reads, it appears to me at least that the movie is a one shot anthology film similar to the structure of the upcoming Star Wars Rogue One.
I’m with everyone who says this is not a 6 army battle and the WW will not be present. It will be Jon +Wildlings +Stark loyalist vs Boltons + their loyalists. The Vale will probably come in at some point and join Jon’s side. Remember, Mel said she’ll walk the battlements of Winterfell and watch the Bolton flags be lowered. If the WW show up you’re either fighting them and losing or you’re retreating. Walking the battlements and lowering the flags is cleanup duty after victory. the WW aren’t being defeated in S6. Jon’s side wins and the WW come in S7 or 8.
You mean like Glass Candles?
Robb Snow,
Well in the books we see Alys Karstark at the wall. Jon helped her and on the end of his chapter when she is going back home with Sigorn Magnar of Thenn I remember her saying something like “The North remembers”. That might prove correct later in the books again we havent seen any of this on TV show yet. So that is something to consider when it comes to Karstarks
Gravemaster,
Reptilian Cersei confirmed
Sean C.,
The problem with LF saying “Sansa was kidnapped” will fall in the moment they meet Sansa. Because LF was the one who brought her in the first place (and everyone knows that, even the people at the inn), so he can’t say something like “she was kidnapped on the street, we were heading to…”. Even LF can’t deny something like “well, I left her here alone, I didn’t knew someone accused of regicide could be married with a Lannister vassals”.
She can accuse him easily of a plan going bad, ulterior motives or being a bad mentor and at least make him being imprisoned, because and arranged marriage needs at least the approval of the others (given the fact Sansa was intended to marry Robin and is Lysa’s niece). But who knows what they’re gonna do with Sansa next season. I see her being killed for Jon’s resurrection.
What interests me is when Jon arrives with the wildlings. Before the battle or in the midst of it ala the Rohirrim charge in LOTR II and III? And who commands these armies into battle? Who do they rally behind? Who oversees the strategic management? Will we see the Lords in a kind of brainstorming, pre-battle session before launching the operation ‘Winterfresh’?
Luka Nieto,
http://io9.com/5939921/the-game-of-thrones-house-sigils-redesigned-as-corporate-logos
http://unrealitymag.com/television/the-full-game-of-thrones-family-crest-line-up/
Better link is second one i think that could be the aryn house (led by little finger or robin)
could be this? http://31.media.tumblr.com/2c7687c58c61bcbdc437ebbbc6ae2481/tumblr_n5z3si6mB51rfbu4fo4_r1_250.gif the two gold parts match but not the blue?
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Heraldry info on soem of the variations
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Tarth.PNG could it be a variation of house tarth?
could not find one that matched closeer then the ones i posted could it be a new flag? like of the
if it was red blue red blue(alternating patter) that would be house tully
I have a question:
I have read several posts on here that imply that Arya will be in the Riverlands at some point this season – I read every article on this site and I don’t recall any indication of that – did I miss something?
red viper,
Yes
Violence against a nice character? And female? Murdering an unborn child in a gory manner to show how crazy Ramsay is? And to take away inheritance problems and other plots? Shocking the audience? Do you think the showrunners would do that? ¬¬
I didn’t like that either. Or that he tried to burn Gendry without waiting to see if the leeches took effect (they didn’t). Or that he didn’t give his “I don’t want to be King, but it’s my duty” speech
But yeah, it’s way different to kill a middle aged man than to kill your own 9-year-old daughter. Would you feel the same as when Ned Stark beheaded that deserter if, for example, he decided to push Bran out the window?
With Jon Wearing Stark colors i would assume that maybe someone ( Umbers ) have Robb’s Will that gives Jon ” King of the North “. Since he already believed that Bran and Rickon were dead. And if they really mean 6 Armies you have Boltons, Northerners, Wildlings, Night Watch ( Edd and some members will join Jon ), Wolves, and i think the Vale will show up at the end. I don not think Frey’s will be involved Nor WW. ( if White Walkers are at Winterfell without anyone knowing Westeros is screwed if Dragons are coming or not lol )
Simeon,
Robb Snow,
I’m as real as it gets. If you don’t like it, don’t read.
Perhaps…but we could debate the purpose of obsidian candles. They may be beacons signaling the re-appearance of magic (dragons/WWs) in the world but are they comm/visionary devices, as implied by Alleras/Sarella? If so, the weirnet is going to be used to communicate Sam’s discoveries, imo.
Awesome awesome awesome.
Boltons, Wildlings, Mormonts, Umbers, Karstarks and Hornwoods? What about Littlefinger?
Why has the main image been deleted? :/
SlayerNina,
Oh, so you think book Ramsay wouldn’t (or won’t) kill Walda and her unborn children (even though book Roose himself thinks he would)? Of course it’s only something “Dumb and Dumber” would do in their terrible show, right?
Tywin of the Hill,
Don’t worry, I won’t.
Tywin of the Hill,
No, of course not but it’s apples and oranges. Ned was an honorable man who would never do that, not in the shows or the books. Stannis burnt innocents in the books. It’s not a stretch that he did it in the show. That was my point.
Grenouille,
Those comments were deleted. What did they say?
dkd,
Looks close to Darin Crescenzi’s version of House Tarths sigil. GRRM uses it on his web page. It’s just above the “musings” link.
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~kehelves/Redesign/musings.html
Every time I see an angry Stannis fan, I just feel so good.
After all those ”Stannis will take WF” comentaries. And after being called stupid for beliving that the pink latter is real.
It feels just so damn good, too see all these people in denial.
I don’t get the difference between “you-” (iú) and “eu-“(iú) .. so to me it’s just the same: “iúron”
Anyways, I don’t think they’re calling it “The Battle of the Six Armies” because they are really 6 armies, but just to joke around with The Hobbit.
But, if you still want 6 armies, there you got:
1-Jon Stark’s
2-Northern Lords
3-Wildlings
4-The Vale
5-Remainings of Stannis’s army
6-Bolton
What,
Owner of the original took it down. I’ve replaced it with our own copy.
Does anyone believe the gossip that a Stark dies in battle?
Dame Pasty,
Which innocents did he burn in the books?
Tywin of the Hill,
EDIT
Sorry forgot you’re on my ignore list. This won’t repeat!
Nadia,
Nope. No way in hell will Jon die a second time (or won’t this soon at least) and there’s no good reason for Rickon and Sansa to even be present at the battle.
Jeb,
What did I miss? Details!!
Robb Snow,
I could see Rickon being there because Shaggy Dog can protect him. He doesn’t have to be in the thick of the fighting. Sansa, on the other hand, has no business being at a battle whatsoever.
OtherAndrew,
Basically, it said :
-The Umbers are siding with the Boltons
-we will find out what happens to Rickon in that scene…
-The battle is Starks ,wildlings, Mormonts, Vale vs Boltons , Umbers, Karstarks, Sellswords
-A stark die during the battle
-Sansa and Littlefinger with the army of the Vale arrive in the end to save Jon and his allies
Grenouille,
Confirmed to be true?
Highly doubt it. If anyone will side with the Boltons it would be the Karstark.
Tywin of the Hill,
He burned his brother-in-law in the books. And now you’re going to say that he his b-in-law was a traitor. Davos didn’t think he was.
The rest were criminals or something I believe. So the use of plural innocents on my part was incorrect. However, there are other things I believe he did that were just as wrong. He wanted to burn Edric Storm and would have had Davos not helped him escape. He killed his own brother. And I know, you’ll come up with excuses for all of this as well. It’s still wrong. Anyone can come up with good excuses for murder and it will never be right.
igorcarvalho,
Could the Brotherhood without banners be a possibility? No one is mentioning them…
Just wanna throw in my vote that this probably isn’t literally “six armies”. I could be wrong but it’s likely just a tongue-in-cheek crew name indicating how massive the battle is and playfully riffing on the Hobbit’s “Battle of the Five Armies”.
At any rate it’s gonna be glorious to behold. Sapochnik/Harington 2016!
Dame Pasty,
I agree with you on the Stannis stuff. While he may not be present for Shireen’s burning in TWOW, he has basically given Mel carte blanche to burn anyone she wants whenever she wants. Maybe he doesn’t think she’d burn Shireen, but if that’s the case, I’m sorry, he must not have been paying attention.
Looks like there’s a House Cerwyn banner towards the back of the line. Kind of makes sense they’d be unhappy with the Boltons. After all, Ramsey did skin Lord Cerwyn, his wife and one of their sons for not recognizing the Boltons (High Sparrow episode).
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Cerwyn
Mihnea,
OtherAndrew,
Grenouille,
I believe the Reddit poster was the same person who was pushing that false script making the rounds not long ago so I wouldn’t put too much store on what he/she said.
I agree with you if we must put a number to the armies. I could see Davos leading the remnants of Stannis’s army… where are they gonna go anyway Winter is Coming?!
Matt,
I hope nothing happens to Rickon (or Sansa, although I’m pretty positive that she’s not at risk). Enough Starks have died in the series. Time for the tide to start turning.
Grenouille,
Now I know for certain the Reddit stuff is fake because the Umbers are already semi-confirmed to be fighting the Boltons, on top of having absolutely no reason to side with the Boltons storywise whatsoever.
Sansa leads the 5 armies.
Grenouille,
So fake. I don’t see how the’d make Boltons even more powerful that the Stark loyalists need the Vale’s help to defeat them. And there’s no way Sansa does anything with Littlefinger after he basically fed her to Ramsay. Also the Umbers will be fighting the Boltons, not siding with them.
Dame Pasty,
Stannis’s fans are people not worth entering a debate. Because they don’t look at the story/characters/events,..etc. In a objective manner, but rether from the perspective of a ”fan”.
They will try to find excuses or say that Ranly was a traitor or something like that.
They are unable, so it seams at least, to aknowladge, that this man killed his litle brother. And no amout of trying to justify this, will ever make it right.
P.S. Don’t want to insult all of his fans, I’m sure there are resonable minded ones out there….Or so I hope.
Dame Pasty,
Thanks.
I have my doubts about the hints he posted about Rickon’s fate, myself.
They would bring him in the storyline again just to kill him?
Dame Pasty,
To me, Stannis’s biggest crime was killing Ser Cortnay Penrose, who was only trying to save an innocent boy.
Oh my goodness my mind is racing thinking of all the things that have been set up in order for a battle of SIX ARMIES!
1) Jon Stark and his bannerman
2) The Wildlings
3) The Boltons
4) Littlefinger leading the Vale to slaughter anyone left.
5) Euron leading Iron Born scum to kill anyone in their path (yeah we keep hearing about him in the Reach but I’m thinking that’s a REACH) and convincing Theon to blow a certain horn…bringing down THE WALL and letting in…
6) THE WHITE WALKERS
To think we’ll finally see those flayed men come to life!
Yeah the only way I’d buy that is if the Umbers “appear” to side with the Boltons… but then turn on them in the midst of the battle.
Young Dragon,
Damn! forgot about poor Penrose.
That guy had honor! he declared for Renly, and he didn’t change sides the next day he died,…Like the Florents.
Quick FYI to Dame Pasty. You might already be aware of this, but just in case, the banner for House Hornwood has already appeared on-screen back in Season One at the Tourney of the Hand http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/e/ef/House_Hornwood_tourney.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130102174908 and http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/8/80/Hornwood_heraldry_in_episode_guide.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/185?cb=20150503200326 also see in the background of this behind-the-scenes segment about Jim Stanes, the graphic designer who created all the sigils for the show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaLzC91ty7Q I mention mostly because you wrote about legs in the House Hornwood sigil, but the one used in the show doesn’t have one.
Mihnea,
I forgot about him too!
Sunfyre,
Which, to be fair, would make some sense. The Umbers may already take the Manderly’s place in the matter of Rickon, so why not in this too?
Dame Pasty,
Since when is Davos an expert on law? Not treason? Then how would you call someone who tries to marry your only child to a bastard born of incest without your permission and against your orders? What do you think Robb would have done to Roose Bolton if he had found Arya and he had tried to marry her to Lancel, for example?
I don’t care what he “considered” to do. When he actually kills an innocent, we’ll speak.
Tywin of the Hill,
We could argue forever on this and not come to agreement. Let it go.
Absurd! You believe Stannis from the books wouldn’t kill Shireen, yet you ignore the fact that he was willing to burn an innocent child, Edric Storm. Yes, he didn’t do it, but not because he decided otherwise; he was willing to do it, and Davos took the opportunity from him. If your belief that he wouldn’t kill Shireen is based on his sense of morality and justice, then how do you figure he was willing to do it with Edric? Well, because he’s a “the end justifies the means” kind of guy; you wouldn’t wanna hear that, though.
yer-ON
I hope that there’s some double-crossing twist in the form of a frey pie or similar leading up to a huge battle rather than just army vs army defeating the boltons.
comeuppance!
rhymeswithweak,
Presumably the Boltons will do something this season. They are part of the main cast, after all. They’ll have to give them something to do until the climactic battle. Dealing with the Northern Lords could well be it, as a mix of ADWD and TWOW material. Or maybe they don’t appear much after (hopefully) failing to find Sansa, until the battle.
But will there be eagles?
HornwoodSigil,
Oh, good catch! That doesn’t mean they won’t redesign a minor house like that though. Plus what other house uses black and orange?
I think the Boltons will start falling apart from within first, with Ramsay perhaps turning on Roose at some point then declaring himself Warden of the North.
As I mentioned above, what about the death of Ser Cortnay Penrose?
Luka Nieto,
Not to mention that he allowed the poor girl to be shut away with only a Maester and slack-witted fool for company. I never liked Stannis and the show didn’t have any effect on that. But you’re probably wasting your breath joining this argument. 🙁
Luka Nieto,
Right. Also it could add a little bit of complexity to the battle itself. Not to mention giving others beside Jon decisive moments in the fighting. Would love to see the Smalljon giving the Boltons a taste of their own traitorous medicine.
If this battle is going to be the biggest ever we do need to see some reversals and tactics being employed. Regardless of whether the reddit spoilers are accurate or not I like the idea of the Umbers betraying the Boltons. Might take some of the sting out of losing much of the Manderly plot in the show.
Mihnea,
As a former Stannis fan, I supported him because he was the least bad option of the surviving claimants and because I always saw him through Davos’ eyes.
Grenouille,
I can’t see bringing Rickon back just to kill him off. They would have just done that way back instead of sending him off to a safe place for a while.
Young Dragon,
He refused Stannis orders. According to all laws of inheritance, Stannis was both his King and the Lord of Storm’s End.
Ned killed Arthur Dayne and no one says anything about that.
You and I and we and everyone all knows that nothing good will come from this and we’ll all regret being excited about this battle but I am HYPErventilating anyway. Even just a whiff off the decaying Stark carcass is enough to excite me these days.
Technically, it’s the flayed man, but I share the same sentiments. The thought of those Westerosi Buffalo Bills (think silence of the lambs) holding Winterfell makes me seethe.
Maybe Shagga leads the Hill Tribes out as well?
No mention of them in recent years I know, but in the books Jon suggests Stannis/ Davos use the Northern mountain clans to bolster their army. Could the show replace the Northern clans with the hill tribes? Meh… Probably not…
I guess I’m not surprised at Euron’s pronunciation at all…
Tywin of the Hill,
The hand that passes the sentence, should wield the sword. Penrose was
burnt to death andnot given a clean execution. It wascruel beyond what was necessarynot a proper execution for an honorable man, even if you excuse it as being lawful. Ned and Arthur fought man-to-man. That’s honorable. That’s what makes Stannis’ killing of Renly even worse….he did it with black magic and subterfuge, not honor and dignity.Edited: because I mixed Penrose up with another character, argument remains, however
Tywin of the Hill,
Stannis had no proof that Joffrey was a bastard and was not the established king of Westeros. At that point, his claim was no better than Renly’s, only Renly never asserted he had a rightful claim. He was going to become king by right of conquest. Penrose was under no obligation to follow the man who murdered his king. Besides, Penrose offered to fight Stannis one-on-one, but Stannis was too cowardly to kill Penrose the honorable way and resorted to dark magic.
I’m not sure that this makes much sense. We know that Melisandre will burn Shireen in the books as well, and we think that she is going to have a participation in Jon’s story in TWOW.
So, clearly GRRM find a way to do both things, and D&D can use that in the show, if they want.
FYI: this hyperbolic crap is why y’all are so annoying to us non-Stannis fans. 😉
Robert’s sons inherit before his brothers. Since the realm accepts Joff and Tommen as his true sons, Stannis gets nothing. By even stricter laws of inheritance, the Targaryens are the rightful kings, and again Stannis gets nothing. By the rule of “might makes right” used by Aegon the Conqueror (and Robert as well), Stannis lost the war and so, yet again, gets nothing.
Stannis was a fascinating fictional character played almost perfectly by Stephen Dillane. But he wasn’t even one of the principal charaters of the story – nor even a minor POV in the book – and now his role in the story is done (and likely soon will be in WoW).
Dame Pasty,
As my namesake Tywin Lannister would say “why is it more honourable to kill 5,000 men in a battle than one with a murder?”
I never said he’s honourable. He’s not. He’s dutiful.
When I first read the books, I pronounced Euron as
‘Your-on'(think of how Europe is pronounced, just replace the ‘ope’ with ‘on’). On subsequent reads, I have come to pronounce it as ‘Oo-rahn’, though.
Because those men (soldiers!) are meeting in the field of battle. That is how battle was conducted: by two armies composed of knights and professional soldiery. There’s no chivalric component to murdering your guests at a wedding.
The second set of flags from the left, in the background a black figure on white (and to the left of the flag with gold disc on blue) it looks like the giant of House Umber. The gold/ blue flag could be a play on House Kastark’s bursting sun…or, some other minor house (flint, waterman, Poole are the ones that have sigils that could fit). Also, I think you got the moose right, it’s hornwood, though there is a chance the moose is actually a horse of House Ryswell, which would make sense considering the flashback.
Young Dragon,
He had his investigation with Robert’s bastards and the execution of Ned Stark. How much evidence do you need?
Plus, Stannis didn’t accept “right of conquest” as an excuse to betray your king and do whatever the hell you want. He only rebelled against Aerys because his brother ordered him to. Renly had no such excuse.
Penrose was under the obligation of following Renly’s heir, who according to the law was Stannis. Stannis had no obligation to gamble his birth-right to a simple castellan.
Stannis fans are the worst. They are just like him. Unreasonable and impossible for discussion.
Valaquen,
Well, I’m not an expert in honor, but I think killing peasants, burning crops and raping women ain’t “chivalric” stuff either. Or maybe they’re, and that’s why every army does them.
Anyway, as I said, Stannis is not an honourable man. Never said he was. I wouldn’t like him as much if he was.
mau,
We have no idea of the timing of those things, though.
Let’s just stop talking about Stannis. He’s dead and has nothing to do with the show going forward. If Stannis fanboys wanna keep whining about The One True King™, let them do it alone in the corner while the grownups discuss other more important things.
Sean C.,
We don’t, but D&D do know.
Look, folks, this is getting tiring. I’m not going to change your minds about Stannis and you sure as hell ain’t gonna change mine. Why can’t we leave it like that?
Yes, Stannis had proof that Joffrey was a bastard. The problem is that he has no evidence to show the people of Westeros, and yet, he assumes that they’ll take his word for it.
If Bran killed Robb, would you have expected Robb’s bannerman to follow him?
Robb Snow,
Please!
Robb Snow,
I understand why people like him in post-ASOS period.
He is the only character that is actually doing something in the last two books. But that’s not because he is a great character, it is because GRRM stopped being a great writer.
Ha! Okay.
It’s getting really annoying that we can NEVER stay on topic.
We spend hours talking about Stannis or The Sand Snakes in topics where they not belong.
I enjoy refreshing the page to see everyone comment, better than Reddit most of the time, but here we don’t have a dislike or downvote system so everything pile up and gets really frustrating for everyone who want to see if there are real updates on the subject or meaningful speculation.
There are other better places to discuss “I like/don’t like Stannis/The Sand Snake” like…well…Reddit
Sorry for the rant but is the third time in a week that i stop following a thread because I get frustraded with off-topic discussion and sorry If I made any mistake cause English is not my first nor second language.
Tywin of the Hill,
But the main difference is that Stannis is not a real main character,oh wait sorry did i hurt your feelings ? It’s just that i love to slap Stannis fanboys with reality checks .
Where do you folks think Davos will be during all of this? I think he’ll join Team Jon of course, but at some point he has to figure out that Melisandre killed Shireen. The big question is when, and how he’ll respond when he does.
That’s going to be a ton of wights.
darksianna,
First of all, I’m always amazed at those of you who apologize for your English when your English is quite good! In terms of going off-topic, and I know there are times I’ve contributed to it, if we could start getting in the habit of, when something starts to veer off-topic the way this has, starting a topic about it in the forums and posting a link to it on the thread where the discussion is happening, it could help keep the focus of the topic at hand, and increase the traffic in/raise awareness of the existence of the forums.
I tend to agree with some above that some in the crew making reference to “6 armies” maybe should not be taken as formally as some of us are. Sounds like they were having some fun and taking a bit of a poke at The Hobbit.
That said, I don’t think I’ve seen a reference to House Reed / The Crannogmen as one of the possible “armies”. Maybe they could be a specialized force – much the same way as I think the Welsh provided bowmen for the English armies for awhile.
But they can’t show up at Winterfell…
Unless…
Uh oh…
dizzy,
That’s what i was thinking as well,the Night King and the WW will throw a party once they finally cross the wall and see how many fresh recruits for their army they will have. When it’s all set and done they will probably reach close to a million or so soldiers .
Robb Snow,
I have NO idea. Been wondering that, too. Have we even had a Liam Cunningham spotting at all since filming began?
If I had to guess… ugh, I honestly don’t know. He could follow Jon Snow wherever he goes or maybe he goes somewhere that’ll require a ship. That’s all I got lol
Well this pretty much confirms what most of us already knew.
HBO is going all in on these last seasons.
GoT is one of those rare, once in a lifetime series, that warrants such a high price tag.
It is a rating monster, a cash cow and now an officially critically acclaimed series.
And on top of that it’s a continuous free advertising for that “Only on HBO” type agenda.
HBO is Happy, D&D is happy, GRRM is happy and we will be happy….
Wins all around!
Well said. I agree, somehow these posts always get hijacked by someone. I wish we could stick to the topic at hand. The promise of an awesome battle.
Matt,
He was in NI when filming began, we saw some photos.
6 armies, mhm… What about “LSH leading an army”? 😀 Just kidding…
I don’t think that there will actually be 6 different armies. An army is not defined by the House but by the CAUSE it is fighting for. Soldiers from different Houses or regions fighting for the same cause would be one army. So I can only see 3-4 fractions involved:
– House Bolton and everyone who is loyal to them (possibly including the Karstarks, Freys,…)
– Jon and the Wildlings: We don’t know why the Wildlings take part in this battle, but if they do, it is safe to say that they are fighting for Jon’s cause.
– The other Northern Lords who are still loyal to House Stark (including the Houses Umber, Mormont, possibly Hornwood and Karstark…). We don’t know if they back Rickon’s claim or if they team up with Jon and the Wildlings (in which case these two fractions would count as only one army)
– Possibly the Vale forces fighting for Sansa’s rescue or for whatever LF told them, but I can’t really see them siding with the Boltons.
Of cause there are some other possibilities including:
– The remains of Stannis’ army (lead by Davos), who are mostly sellswords. Even if they are still around somewhere in the North, why should they take part in the battle? They would not fight the avenge the king whom they deserted when he was still alive. Sellswords are loyal to gold. Who should pay them?
– The Ironborn (but why?). We know Theon is back on the Iron Islands this season, why should he (or Asha) return to the North with Ironborn forces?
– Forces loyal to the Blackfish and House Tully (but why?). If these forces even exist in the show they will be sieged in Riverrun by the Lannisters/Freys at the end of the season.
– Lannister forces, which is very unlikely since Cercei already sent LF and the Vale army to deal with the Boltons
I think the White Walkers won’t make it through the wall before the season finale.
Robb Snow,
I don’t think Book!Roose will approve it. Even if he doesn’t want to have “children lords”, he wants to pass as “invisible and respectable” for the northern lords. Murdering Fat Walda is some sort of kin slaying, very noticeably and maybe make Lord Walder being angry for the matter. And Roose is pretty fond of Walda.
Show!Bolton gives the advice of invisibility and seems to enjoy Walda too, but he doesn’t care at all when Ramsay tortures Sansa… When it’s empatised (by him and LF) how their legitimacity came precisely of Sansa “Starkness” and some day (soon) she will rule as Wardeness and has some claim in the Vale/ Riverrun… I will be a bit worry if some who hold such power is angry at my family. That’s why say it’s a bit inconsistent.
Marcus,
How will the WW cross the Wall, though? Doesn’t the Wall have to come down, first?
Dame Pasty,
Florent send a letter to KL saying Stannis had surrended and accepted Joffrey as king. That’s why it’s labelled as “traitor”.
Fine to punish him, but is an extreme move to go on BBQ route, tough.
The real question is, does this mean that Jon is leading the Stark forces? That really significant.
Also, with the Umbers there, it means Sansa has gone to them, found out about Rickon, and rallied them to reclaim Winterfell?
But is all this being done in Rickon’s name?
SlayerNina,
Roose won’t have time to worry because I’m pretty sure Ramsay will kill him as well. Roose gave Ramsay a lot of rope by legitimizing him, and Ramsay will end up hanging himself and the rest of his house with it.
Nadia,
I’d say it’s being done more in the name of House Stark as a whole. It will be payback for the Red Wedding of course, and I also imagine Sansa relaying her tale of how the Boltons treated her while she was at Winterfell will further inflame the Northern lords. And of course to install Rickon as the rightful Lord of Winterfell.
Jon would make a great leader for the battle because… well, he’s a commander who has led men into battle before. And he’s a Stark, by blood if not in name.
Robb Snow,
LC just gave some interviews.
http://www.melty.fr/game-of-thrones-saison-6-liam-cunningham-a449124.html
This is interesting: And when asked how he believes Davos react to the death of Stannis, he replied: “I will not tell you what happens in Season 6 This is something we will explore in the season, unless I did not discover it and I discover in a next season, “the real question to ask now is” who will inherit his loyalty? “. For Liam Cunningham, Davos is not a leader, he is there to assist someone, so it will have to find a new “King” or a new cause.
SlayerNina,
I think that is why it is happening in episode 9 lol. There will be plenty of time for the political and emotional aspects to be leveled out.
Yaga,
It also almost guarantee that Davos will live to see season 7 🙂
Now I admit I never liked stannis but I think it is a testament to GRRM’s brilliant character writing that after ASOS I found myself interested in him succeeding to at least take winter fell from the boltons, Theons sample chapter from Winds of Winter is a classic example I don’t want the man to lose to the boltons, i would not mind even if he burned them all. I think Martin dropped enough hints to convince me that he was not actually Azor Ahai, however I admit that is a conjecture based on my opinion. I know this he doesn’t really get me to root for him in battle or as a character until he goes north and that’s because he in my mind willingly or not is seemingly to be helping the STARK cause, but I acknowledge its fiction and everyone will root for who they want, I don’t like him as a character though.
And why are people taking this six armies so literal? I think they were just trying to describe the scope of the battle in comparison to another big battle in the hobbit films.
I’m the only one who thinks Rickon commanding anything (or being in the battle) is impossible? The actor has grown up, of course, but being in the middle of the battle pretending his direwolf could protect him of everything it’s pretty extreme.
Unless you’re part of the “Rickon the Savage riding an Unicorn after an intense training” meme-theory 😀
one army must be made of the esssosi soldiers paid by Stannis with the money of the iron bank. They can not disappear
Yaga,
Sansa or Jon.
Matt,
Yeah, I’m also wondering about Michael McElhatton. Don’t think he’s been spotted near a GoT set. Wouldn’t Roose be present for the battle? I want to see him command even though I doubt he would actually get involved in the fighting. Then again, he did take the time to stab Robb himself and that flayed man sword is too bad-ass to not be used.
One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches,
My guess is he’s already dead at that point. Which pains me to say because I love the Roose-man. But my bet is Ramsay kills him an episode or so before the Snowbowl.
Dame Pasty,
Thanks for the reply.
I agree that the smart money is on that being a banner for House Hornwood and I wouldn’t even think it’s redesigned. I’m unsure what you thought were legs, but I can totally see the far tips of the antlers and a bit of the moose’s chin plus the dark shade of orange and black are a total match to one on-screen in Tourney of the Hand.
I think the screencap of the House Hornwood banner from Season One strengthens your case that it’s the same banner we might see in Season Six more than the picture in the post from the Wiki of Ice and Fire.
Yaga,
The most logical option would be Jon, but other options Sansa or simply to serve Starks. Although I’m interested to see if he will eventually find out about Shireen’s death. Mel could be in a big trouble.
On the show – Catelyn believed they were dead. Robb didn’t. She had a a conversation with The Blackfish at Riverrun and he told her that Robb doesn’t believe they are dead and he needed to hold on to that belief to keep hope. Plus he thought he was having a heir soon. They (the showrunners) left the will out and I think that’ll be a mistake on their part. In fact, they didn’t show Cat and Robb finding out about Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion so in Season 3, Robb had no real reason to believe the Starks would lose the North or Winterfell except if the Lannisters killed him.
Book!Robb covered his bases. Show!Robb left them to chance.
mau,
ita that he’s actually doing something, while Tyrion, Dany, Jon dawdle, and that this says a lot about the quality of Dance. However, he was interesting before. See his decision to keep Davos as Hand even after Davos sends away Edric (Gendry). In Game, Clash, Storm he is the one true king after Robert’s death, which makes his position different from Joffrey’s or Balon’s. He’s an atheist bringing in a different religion. He carries a “magic” sword but doesn’t believe it’s magical.
He’s odd, which makes him fun to read.
Yaga,
He’ll end up joining Team Jon for sure, even if he struggles with it at first like Liam seems to be suggesting. He knows that Stannis saw something in Jon, and he’ll also wanna stop Mel from sinking her claws into him the same way she did Stannis since she’ll surely be all about Jon when the Lord of Light resurrects him.
Greenjones,
It will happen for sure! They’ve already sown the seeds for Ramsay to turn on his father. Sansa and Theon escaping will just pit them against each other that much more.
In the real world, you’d pronounce it Oy-ron if it were German, but not if it were English. I don’t see why GRRM would have the name spelled in a German way rather than an English one.
Alikat,
GRRM would have told them if leaving out the will was a mistake. Moreover, he wrote the episode where it would have made the most sense to introduce it. Moreover, GRRM did not touch on the will in Dragons or Crows. If it was going to be important in Winter or Dragons, then he should have reminded readers of it in some way in those two books.
Remember, B&W know what happens in Winter and Spring. If they are not setting up things that you or I thought were going to be important, then we should take this as evidence that that thing will not be important.
It either means they changed the story so that they don’t need the will, or that the will was just a MacGuffin to begin with.
Simeon,
You mean a red herring, not a MacGuffin.
Yeah, I kinda mixed that up. Oh well, I’ll leave my mistake as it is so that your reply will still make sense. 🙂
Yaga,
Only other notables stuff from that interview is :
Liam would like to direct episodes some day, but thinks it’s unlikely.
“Sansa is on one hell of an arc”.
Nothing else interesting, other than that comment about Davos loyalty. Which is the real meaty stuff of what he has to say there.
Nadia,
Probably. Remember, Sansa’s little brother is a Tree God and that will carry some benefits. He can probably nudge her in the correct directions whether Sansa realizes it or not.
At this point, it should be time for lead characters to start coalescing their plot lines. This could be uniting Jon, Sansa, Davos and Theon. Moreover, it is time to start the finale plot lines, such as putting Ned’s last son by Catelyn back as Lord of Winterfell.
Simeon,
The will was not a Red Herring or a Maguffin. It was a Mount Molehill: that is, a molehill turned into a mountain by the fans. The will was basically a backdrop for re-raising the issue of Jon’s maternity. It might also have been there to introduce the Blackfyres, although that might well prove to be gratuitous world-building.
However, as GRRM has not raised the issue other than one time, we cannot accuse him of misleading us. Books need details and it is not his fault that some fans blew a detail out-of-proportion.
uff,
But why would they randomly get involved in a battle if it doesn’t benefit them ? Do you even know what a sellsword aka mercenary is ? They are hired man who fight for whoever pays them the most but they aren’t stupid to kill themselves for no reason which is why they abandoned Stannis and presumably went to the Boltons .
Starks
Boltons
Wildlings
Tullys
Greyjoys
Vale
Maria,
Ok,Stannis being called an atheist is legit one of the most hilarious things someone said in a while. You were trying to be funny,right ?
What was he supposed to do? Bend the knee to Joffrey and let him have his way? Stand idle while the Lannisters did whatever they pleased?
No, but if Bran had tried to usurp Robb’s title, I would expect Robb to kill him, and for the treacherous bannermen to follow Robb (if he didn’t execute them first).
Don’t worry, this is the last comment I make about Stannis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BVKsOehXGg
About 8mins in Liam talks about this battle, I suppose, so he is indeed going to be a part of it.
Also says it’s bigger than anything they’ve done before, can’t wait 🙂
It cant be the Tullys because they would have to come through Moat Callin to get into the North and Roose defiantly won’t allow the Tullys access to the North because he knows they would be staunchly Stark supporters… Besides from what we have seen they are in the middle of building a Riverrun set which indicates that they are doing the Siege of Riverun story arc concerning Brydan Tully & Jamie Lannister. Anyway people need to get super hype for the new season with so many things that can happen!
1. The North Remembers Storyline
2. The Siege Of Riverun + Walder Freys Return
3. The Tower Of Joy
4. Jon Snows Reserection
5. Gleganebowel
6. The Tarlys
7. Iron Born & Greyjoy Story
8. More White Walkers + Brann & Three-Eyed-Raven
9. Arya In Bravos & Maybe Back In Westeros
10. Faith Milliant & The Royal Family
11. Dany & Her Dragons
The amount of things that can happen in Season 6 is awesome!!!
GeekFurious,
You are half correct. There are at least two more battles ahead for seasons 7 and 8 (Danny conquering Westeros, possibly fighting the Lannisters/their supporters and the final WW showdown) but the north finally regaining its power has been in the making for quite a few seasons now, its about time.
tkk,
Awesome. Mel should be part of it too in some capacity.
Art Parkinson was spotted in Belfast during the filming of this sequence or not? I thought I read it here in comments section but not 100% sure.
Luka Nieto,
I think the 6 armies thing is either a codename or nickname. They would never call it that on the show. It’s far too on the nose. There are likely several different houses that converge, with at least one group of combatants showing up unexpectedly (the Vale or the Wildlings led by Tormand or something). It’s going to be,JMO, a crazy make of a battle that will be epic and full of twists. This also might be why House Tarly is finally necessary in the show. They could make use of the family sword..,
Let the Boltons die in pain and degradation. And at the end of the battle, Melisandre offering Littlefinger as a sacrifice would be the iceing on the cake. The realm has paid the price for his manipulations and it’s about time they concentrated on the apocalyptic threat that is imminent.
tkk,
So Davos is definitely confirmed for the Battle of the Six Armies! Cool! He also says it’s the longest sequence they’ve shot in the whole show.
He – in a way – confirms he’s part of that battle !
Damn, I love Liam’s accent… I could listen to him talk all day… just like Rose Leslie !
Geralt of Rivia,
Art tweeted about going to a restaurant in Belfast about a week ago (Sept. 20 I think), not sure if there is any more recent evidence floating around. Either way, I can’t really see Rickon being involved in the battle. Surely Jon would keep him out of harm’s way, if they have even met up at this point (I hope so!).
Ok…wild guess…just for fun
what if “six armies” is a way of moking LOTR in more than one way and one army is a parallel to the eagle army? Like … a pack of wolf? what if all of the living Starks dogs get reunited with Nymerya’s pack?
I know, I don’t fully believe it myself but it would justify even more the long shooting because of the amount of CGI needed for something like that.
Ha, Liam also says he stole the stag Davos carved for Shireen and gave it to his daughter ! And she fell in tears the whole burning scene holding the stag. ^^
(Around 13 minutes of the interview)
It does not seem like there will literally be 6 armies, it seems more like 6 or so factions within this battle. The main factions will most likely be the Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers, Wildlings and the Mormonts.
I am starting to think that Littlefinger and his Vale army might end up fighting in the Riverlands. It will be very difficult for any Southern army to go North at this stage, and they would very likely struggle. Littlefinger might command the Vale but I dont see Yohn Royce listening to his every command. Strategically it would be much easier for the Vale to fight in the Riverlands, and Littlefinger could still try to lay claim to the Riverlands through Sansa.
Roose Bolton also isn’t an idiot he would not just trust Littlefinger, he would be wary of Littlefinger after losing Sansa. The Boltons currently holds Moat Cailin, the Vale would have to pass through Moat Cailin first.
Arkash,
That’s both hilarious and so sweet. Such a lovable man and a great actor. He’s the main reason Davos is one of my favorite characters.
The Brotherhood Without Banners???
Marcus,
No, not kidding at all.
He doesn’t believe in gods. He knows Mel has power, and he uses that, but imo not because he believes that a specific god is giving her that power. For him, magic is not a spiritual thing; magic is just a weapon.
First, I wish people would stop comparing the adapted visualizations of Tolkien’s and GRRM’s work. Both are the greatest accomplishments within their own media type. PJ and D&D and their crews all worked tirelessly for very long periods of time on projects that they were extremely passionate about in comparison to other makers and it clearly shows within the results. Each of are unique and should be celebrated for the boundaries they have pushed within the filming industry and for increasing the recognition of the fantasy genre as a more serious player within the industry. These people have made it so we really can visually escape into the types of worlds we are interested in and love.
Second, I am so excited for what we’ve been hearing about the latter parts of season 6 but I also can’t wait to see how everything got to that point. Jon being brought back to life and in what manner, how the norther armies were brought back together and by which of our beloved Stark characters, reunions of any of the Starks, etc. It really seems like this season could end up being the best yet in my opinion 🙂
Thoughts – I wonder if they might save the big WW battle till season 7?
– I can’t remember if the show made any mention of the ship building
between the Manderly’s and the Umbers as was mentioned in ACOK.
Haha… Are you German? Even though I’m a German speaker, it never occurred to me to pronounce it that way.
I always read it with the eu as English Europe, not German Europa.
My bet is:
Definite/most likely:
Remaining Stark men
Boltons
Wildlings
Umbers
Karstarks
Mormont
Hornwood
Possible:
Nights watch (if led by Benjen/absolved of vows by Northern Lords)
Manderleys
Cerwyn (mentioned last year)
The Vale
Reeds
There’s another possibility that none of us have considered:
A huge pack of wolves…..boom!
Tom,
I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me before, and perhaps everyone else already assumes it – but if Jon’s parentage is true, they wouldn’t be related and could indeed be king and queen!
with Jon dead( or stabbed or to be resurrected) there are a couple of events I think will take place: 1) willidlings vs what’s left of the nights’ watch. Tension could be cut with a knife and Jon’s dead is going to break the camel’s back. The black brothers are likely to try and drive the wildlings back or kill them but since they outnumber them by quite a bit I am thinking that it will be the crows feeding the crows or at least destroying the order of the night’s watch. According to the books there are some clans on the Wall and due to Jon’s little matchmaking session-marring Alice Karstark to a Wildling lord the clans might take this as a step towards building an alliance and probably some peace. Jon had a dozen southern lords on the wall but he chose a wildling instead signalling that he will go with savage northerners rather than cultured southern lords and hiding behind Melisandre and the red god was a poor excuse of who was calling the shots. Alice came to Jon, he gave her away and he chose her husband. Stanis might have went to the clans but it was Jon who sent him there playing at politics. He never did kill the boy and remained the wannabe hero till the end, so it was his older brothers that had to do it for him, kill the boy that is. 2) Jon waking up and uniting wildlings and northerners. His biggest mistake was his rashes, implementing big changes takes time and a lot of talking to, even if your audience isn’t so hostile.3) Ramsy pushing Jon into the leadership role. The other Snow of the show is just is rash and has a lot of personnel problems and picking a fight with Jon out of pure spite is likely to give those left on the Wall a conmen enemy to unite them and make them march towards Winterfell. I think it be the wildling pointing out the bastard or not Jon still belongs to the family the have pledge loyalty to and help rise him as a king of the North or at very least a regent, since Rickon is too young and too wilful to be the king even if Davos manages to smuggle him back but if he has the powers of dreams he might come willingly knowing what is going to happen.4) I agree that the photo above is of the battle for Winterfell. Jon and probably Sansa will be the wolves these banners stand for. As for the armies-Jon is likely to bring one with him from the Wall, lord to fat to sit a horse’s fleet is probably bringing the remains of Rob’s army back north, there will be the remains of Stanis’s army, the Bolton’s army and those in the castle will probably switch alliance.5) Taking the castle back for the Starks and starting to rebuild and fortify the north with the help of some giants hopefully. at some point Jon will probably address the Falcons and the trout since he needs to feed his people and these places have a lot of food stored in. What’s more Sansa is the niece of the river lord and cousin to Robin with the Blackfish’s help that might open some doors, even if doesn’t like Jon he will have to recognize that for the time being he is the best option the north has.
Arkash,
Doesn’t sound like Sansa dies, unless because M is there.
I didn’t hear the Sansa comment in the youtube vid, is it in there?
My guess
1. Old north alliance – starks’s loyal bannermans(mormont,umbers hornwood).
2. Wildlings
3. Remaining Baratheon forces – swears loyalty to jon vs the boltons.
4. Boltons
5. New north alliance – loyal to the boltons ( karstarks, freys?)
6. The vale – The wildcard.
Oh wow, WotW is on fire these days, going to be really irritating when production stops and we are waiting for trailers…
Six armies…
My guess
1. Starks led by Jon on behalf of Rickon
2. Wildlings (featuring Bran warging Wun Wun)
3. Mormonts
4. Umbers
vs
5. Boltons
6. Karstarks
Makes most sense, Vale armies will be caught up in the Riverlands against the Freys with whatever Sansa + Brienne + Jaimie is doing
The First Crickets chirp: Rickon! Rickon!
…….(Rickon! Rickon!) (Rickon! Rickon!)
…………..(Rickon! Rickon!) (Rickon! Rickon!) (Rickon! Rickon!) (Rickon! Rickon!)
(The First Crickets are, like all northerners, very hardy beasts.)
Are there actually any remaining Baratheon forces? Seems like everyone but the sellswords died at Winterfell. If there are any left, it’d be a handful of stragglers at the most.
I’m not talking about what Stannis should do, I’m talking about what Penrose should do. You say Penrose should have allowed Stannis to take Storm’s End because Stannis is his rightful king. Stannis has no proof of this, so Penrose shouldn’t have to take his word for it.
Renly wasn’t trying to usurp Stannis, because, to Renly, Stannis had no right to the throne. Renly was trying to usurp Joffrey.
Agree. I think it’s just an on set joke or short hand.
The mystery sigil…
In the book “The World of Ice and Fire”, the only sigil that bears any resemblance is that of House Lefford, Lannister bannermen.
This makes NO sense.
Well, PJ & Co. did a brilliant job with Lord of the Rings. Despite the claims of some Tolkien fundies, they really nailed the story and did a brilliant job of making a generally engaging film from a tale that is really hit or miss with people.
However, The Hobbit turned into a Fan Wank. PJ & Co. bent so far over backwards to include all of the Appendix material related to the Hobbit as well as even follow some of Tolkien’s letters about what he wished that he (Tolkien) had done differently in the Hobbit. And it just was not necessary.
Almost certainly until Season 8: The Battle for the Dawn probably will be the climax of the story. That’s when we’ll see all of Jon’s, Daeny’s, Tyrions, Arya’s & Bran’s evolution pay off in some way. (How? Dunno!)
I wonder if it was intentionally set up in S510 that Sansa was able to see how the Bolton army marched on Stannis’s forces. She had a view of their marching pattern, etc.
Whatever happens, she can’t die. She needs to be declared the Queen of the North. The pairing of her rise with Cersei’s fall in the south would be sweet justice, especially when you recall all that dialogue that GRRM wrote in the “Blackwater” episode.
Wimsey,
I could stomach the first two Hobbit films because when they were good, they were really good (particularly Riddles in the Dark and the introduction of Smaug). The third one though is just bad, bad, bad. Seriously, it’s Star Wars prequel-tier awful.
It really won’t be much of a challenge for GoT to outdo that film and its ridiculous “battle”, and in fact already has several times over. Even the Battle of the Fist of the First Men that we never actually saw is superior to the battle in the last Hobbit movie, by virtue of the fact that it didn’t waste three hours of my life (or any of my time at all really) like BoFA did.
I agree. House Lefford is the closest to the mystery sigil. It’s intruguing to wonder what a Lannister bannerman would be doing there.
ash,
They’d be cousins
ash,
But they grew up together as half brother and sister. It wouldn’t be something strange to Westeros or Starks in particular (marriages between cousins happened), but it would be very weird and creepy. Emotional incest. It’s like Ned and Cat 2.0 in a way with these new pictures of Jon looking a lot like Ned and Sansa looking like Cat (paying tribute with her necklace). Jon and Cat uneasy relationship is very well known. Although there never were any kind of scenes between Jon and Sansa. Maybe for some future purposes, but sincerely doubt that. Sansa in the books was sort of meh to Jon, but over the period of time gained a new respect for him.
If Jon is to be King of anything, think Queen will be Daeny. I feel like it’s the only option, but then again I doubt right now that Jon will ever be a King of anything.
By the time the entire saga unfolds, I doubt the concept of King and Queen will even survive.
I honestly do think Sansa is going to be Queen in the North – and I think she’ll die before the end of the series, and Rickon (older Rickon) will be Lord of Winterfell. But something about how they sent Sansa to the North implies that she’ll be important there, and she’ll lead, at least for a time.
Ravyn,
You mean like a monarch or simply independent kingdoms?
Speaking of King/Queen scenario. Maybe I’m a bit wrong with Jon. Maybe he could be King in a time that Westeros needs him (duty). Of course in post-resurrection era … his view could be different, but I think he will remain same Jon in this aspect. Duty above all else. Duty to protect Westeros from WW and later maybe duty to rebuild Westros. With Daeny if it wasn’t for HOTUI getthe impression she will die), I would believe she could end up there. Anyway.
To me Westeros would be in very bad shape after the battle. It would take someone strong to manage the whole thing. I feel like George would never gave fans us such a happy ending with them (Daeny/Jon picked by many fans as the ending) on the throne (it sounds like a happy, sweet ending), but then again their experiences with rulling…albeit not a very good one so far, personalities to match each other and stuff. It’s like preparing them not only to fight and eventually reach some sort of a conclusion with White Walkers (pact between force of Fire And Ice or something) but maybe to manage Westeros after the battle.
If I remember correctly George was kinda disappointed with LOTR/Tolkien that he never showed the fans the reign of Aragorn and Arwen. How it looked and what sort of problems they will deal with. Books will most likely touched on that subject in a way, but with show? Is there enough time to do that? Simply whoever will be on the throne, I think it would take two strong personalities as King/Queen to manage that mess. So it will remains.
I would love it if the Crannogmen finally get motivated to come pouring out of the swamp to retake Winterfell for the remaining Starks, toadstickers and poison darts at the ready!
Geralt of Rivia,
I just recall that great, long Rolling Stone interview GRRM gave a couple of years ago, where he said something like “Great, Aragon, you’re king. Now, what’s your tax plan? How do you plan to provide jobs for your people?” To me, that sounded like GRRM expressing his disdain for the entire concept of people being ruled over by a monarch ( I know Kit himself has expressed similar feelings about monarchies). Considering how hard the story hits on the idea of the powerful abusing the weak (and the misfit) in a very non – egalitarian society, I wouldn’t be surprised if Westeros post-WW/Dany looked very different.
In the books, Bronze Yohn Royce is supposed to be a legendary warrior, with bespelled ancient bronze armor that makes him invulnerable on the battlefield. It would be a shame if he ends up just sitting on a horse telling the Valemen go here, go there.
I’ve seen a lot of people mention a pack of wolves. I think Nymeria and Co. will have their paws (and mouths) full down in the Riverlands. I also want her to be there for when Arya gets there. I may start a thread about the direwolves, though, because I have a lot of questions, for instance, what will Summer do? Bran’s presumably becoming a tree. Does Summer stay with Bran? Does he get sent south? If so, what’s his ultimate destination (I think it would be kind of cool if he gets sent to Sansa)?
Also, regarding Jon’s resurrection, I’ve keep having this thought (at this time, it would be advisable to put the nearest tinfoil on your head)…what if Ghost is the one to bring Jon back? Yes, I know Mel saw Thoros do it, and they both serve the same god, but bear with me (I really do hope you have that tinfoil on)…based upon the descriptions of Ghost
, and the warg-thing, I believe both Bloodraven and Bran can see through ghost. What if Bloodraven is the one to sacrifice himself (if a sacrifice is needed to bring Jon back)? He’s been training Bran for as much time as passed during season 5. He can see the future. Maybe that’s why he needed to get Bran to him, so he could sacrifice himself, warg into Ghost, and pass his life through Ghost into Jon. There’s the added bonus of Bloodraven
I know, I know, it’s out there, but I’m trying to think possibilities other than Mel.
Some people are really really funny.
How can someone think this battle will have White Walkers????
Im pretty sure they will not even get in the wall this season, Just imagine they in winterfell in season 6 hahaha. so in season 8 they will be in meeren. season 7 they already have Westeros.
Well, they’d no longer be half-siblings, but they’d still be 1st cousins.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I’d like to see non-fire resurrection, too. Surely ice can resurrect. Bloodraven and Bran are powerful, and Bran is Jon’s kin.
I know people are sick of this debate, but I just want to say, not all Stannis fans are unreasonable. Personally, I LOVE him as a character, and the fact that he is willing to do so many horrible things just to do what he sees as his “duty”, is part of why I find him so interesting. But yeah, trying to justify his actions from a moral standpoint is ridiculous.
But on-topic – This looks awesome! I think the “6 armies” thing is just a joke at The Hobbit, as there will likely be even more, with the Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers, Mormonts, Hornwoods, Wildlings, Vale soldiers, and possibly more. (I find it highly unlikely that the WWs will break through the Wall this early though). I really can’t wait for this!
Season 6 is shaping up to be the best one yet! This battle, TOJ, Euron, OldTown, the Tarlys, Tyrion & Varys ruling Meereen, (possibly) the return of the Hound… It’s gonna be awesome!
I can see it now. Jon Snow slashes Ramsey in the leg, sending him down to one knee. Jon winds up to whack his head off, slips in the mud and falls and then Ramsey knifes him in the ear. It would be true to form for the Starks.
Ravyn,
I’ve suspected a breakdown of politics as usual as well…
I have never thought Dany would sit on the Iron Throne as anything resembling a long-term ruler. I think she and/ or her dragons will need to die for there to be peace of any kind on Westeros. Maybe she could sacrifice them in the end, maybe she could have them melt the Iron Throne….. I just don’t think she and her dragons will rule.
Maybe something more like severe destruction all over Westeros from the various House wars and the WW invasion leaving each realm with its own ruler. We have enough “main” characters to fill out many of the Seven Kingdoms if not all of them…
It was done in I, Claudius way back in the ’70s to reinforce how crazy Caligula was. In that scenario the pregnant woman was his own sister and the fetus he cut out of her his own offspring, whom he feared would become his rival one day. So there is already TV precedent for involuntary (and fatal) C-sections among family members, from a show that had a lot thematically in common with GoT.
(Yes, I do realize that you were being facetious, by the way.)
It’s not ridiculous at all. Kill one to save many? That’s standard Philosophy 101 stuff. And I really don’t get the “kinslaying” argument. That he was willing to sacrifice his own child rather than someone else’s is a merit, not a demerit. “Insufficiently biased in favor of his own kin” is an odd way to critique someone.
Of course, Show Stannis burned people for heresy while Book Stannis did not, and this was immoral. But burning three for heresy is certainly less bad than Dany’s crucifixation of 163 people as punishment for being members of the wrong class and gender.
In my opinion, the worst ethical choice Show Stannis made was to suicide his troops. Being suicidally depressed is one thing. Dragging thousands down with you is another. He should have let them flee or command them to take the black.
That’s exactly what they did with Myrcella.
Yes, that is an ethical question raised in Philosophy classes, but by no means does it have one standard, universally accepted answer. I can’t cite my sources because I read them so long ago, but there have definitely been studies that show that, when faced with an analogous ethical dilemma, men in general will tend to prioritize ‘the greatest good for the greatest number’ while women in general will tend to prioritize ‘do no harm.’ Justice versus mercy. There is no consensus that justice is better.
Arkash,
And from Sophie Turner, “In other seasons everything is a little separated, all the characters are on their side and there are some intrigues everywhere. In season 6 the puzzle is assembled, you can see the overall meaning of all this is exciting!” http://www.melty.fr/game-of-thrones-saison-6-sophie-turner-sansa-parle-de-la-suite-et-de-la-mort-de-jon-snow-a453953.html
I think we’re slightly edging towards the confirmation of Wardenness Sansa Stark, Leader of the Northern Rebellion!
LF will hold back the V till he sees or thinks he sees the S loyals losing and send a small chunk of his army to finish them and the Bs. But LF makes a grand mistake he doesnt notice the scouts that have been watching to the north. J and W intercept reinforcements and the Us turn on the BKFs so LF pulls his army and rides for the Twins with the sellswords while leaving Royce for dead. Thats where WunWun comes in and roars…and we dont find out would happens till episode10 or season7.
Yaga,
All I could see is Sansa being Regent for Rickon. Maybe she could have a role in convincing the Umbers,Mormonts, and other Northern houses to overthrow the Boltons, but I really feel like that will be mostly Jon, who is the far more significant character, and who seems to be taking over as the main protagonist of the story, if he wasn’t already.
Karstarks – The Sun of Winter
Boltons – Our Blades Are Sharp
Umbers – Arrrrgh!
Starks – Winter Is Coming
Hornwoods – Righteous in Wrath
Mormonts – Here We Stand
Knights of the Vale – As High as Honor
Wildlings – We Do Not Kneel
Battle of Ice wights – Hiss!
That blue banner looks like House Arryn.
ColdPie,
Stannis’s sellswords will be one army. He sent them away to lie in wait, or more likely to join the Boltons and slaughter his other men to get inside Winterfell. Even if Brienne has made him not return, they will.
Arkash,
Yaga,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
And, obviously, I missed the most important point. Why is Liam Cunningham talking about Sansa’s arc?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I think it’ll be Sansa fleeing to Last Hearth. Then the Bolton army attacks Last Hearth to try and get her back. They engage in battle with the armies of the Northern Houses, led by the Umbers (2 armies). Jon and the remnants of the Stark army (+/- remnants of the NW), and the Wildlings (another 2 armies) also approach Last Hearth, where they have discovered that Rickon has been in hiding. They come across the battle and join the Northern Houses in their battle against the Boltons. LF and the army of the Vale approach Last Hearth. They stand back, allowing the other armies to destroy each other, eventually swooping in and trying to win the battle for the North (5th army). As the armies of the North essentially destroy each other the WW descend suddenly upon Last Hearth, in a cool freezing mist/wight army Hard Home-ish kind of scene (6th army). The tattered remnants of the Northern armies (including Boltons) join together on the battlefield under the leadership of the only commander who has ever faced the Walkers…Jon Snow! That’s as far as I’ve gotten. I don’t think Ramsay or Roose survive. There’ll be a lot of deaths, a lot of new wights. Ramsay Wight? Petr Wight? It seems unlikely that the WW are defeated. If they were the series would be over. I predict S7 will be Dany and her dragons arriving in Westeros and battling the WW.
Another point we need to consider is GRRMs quote that as characters come together in the books, he no longer needs them all and can kill some off. So it’s entirely likely that we will lose at least one major character in the battle for the North next season.
Apollo,
At least one major character, and probably quite a few secondary characters that we’ve grown to care about, will definitely die. Or become wights. Which might be even sadder. Of course, characters we hate will also probably be killed. So there’s that.
Oh 7 hells I didn’t want to get into one of these discussions about stannis again, but the reference to Dany killing 163 masters is somewhat off. If you remember the scene, the masters were mocking her and her unsullied army – they dotted the road leading to the city with 163 dead slave children, nailed to posts with the index fingers of their left hands pointing toward the city. They were flaunting their disdain at her caring so much for the slaves. The 163 masters killed weren’t just because they were masters, they were killed in retaliation for deciding to treat 163 children in that manner, and as punishment for the mockery. Not that tit for tat is a good reason for death, but this was war.
In the meantime, I’m just so excited reading all these updates, imagining the frenzy the fandom will be worked up to by the time this battle scene airs. All the social media is going to be jammed with people commenting, it’s going to be so much fun watching and screaming at the TV then reliving it on here in the days that follow.
LOL, keeping the tinfoil on, I had a discussion with somebody on another thread about the fate of Meera and Hodor, with me commenting that it would be sad if they were stuck in the roots of the tree forever with Bran. It was suggested that they might make it back with the help of Summer; since Meera was the one who caught the food and defended the group on the way there, there’s a good chance they could make it back, with Summer serving as eyes and ears for Bran’s guidance.
It’s too late for tinfoil, going to sleep.
*wank, wank, wank*
Thronetender,
Maybe Meera will go to Jon, there is no need for her to stay in that cave. Summer and the children of the forest can help her.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It would be lame if they tried to make jon snow the all conquering hero lol. I don’t know if kit Harrington has the acting chops to carry the thing. I have no doubt he is important, but I enjoy the supporting role a lot of characters have, rather than the main protagonist stuff
Yaga,
He read the script. Talked about it in the video from Comic Con in Mälmo and probably thought it’s damn good arc and most likely he’s part of it too.
Funny, he talked about jaw dropping scenes earlier in the season and Emilia pretty much too. It’s not so slow start like in the last season.
So Jon will find out about his sister being in danger, harmed by Ramsay (maybe he wil share some details to antagonize Jon) and basically will threaten him about going to Wall and deal with him. Last season and the beginning of the next will set up Battle of Bastard rather nicely. Count on the fact that WW can’t be stopped with Widlings and NW (what will remain of it). He will ride South to help his sister (finally after attempts to help Ned and Robbb) and defeat Boltons. It’s funny because last season he refused to do anything about them, when talking to Davos. He remainded him that as long as Boltons rule the North, the North will suffer, and he needs them for the bigger fight. Nice bit of foreshadowing if it was intended by D&D.
utherthelowborn,
Your guess or ?
flintwielder,
Thank you far making me luagh out loud!
Big Mac,
Ha! I knew/hoped there where some normal Stannis fans out there.
Unafortunatly couple of crazy/angry/mad people give you all a bad name.
With Sam telling about the WW, could he possibly convince Randal Tarly to go North or to Kings Landing to convince the King to take this threat seriously if not the Lannisters will be there which side they fight for is questionable. The armies could be, Stark loyalists, Bolton loyalists, the Vale which side?, Nymeria & pack, by e. 9 the Iron Born’s Kings Moot should be resolved which side ?, If King Landing doesn’t get straightend out & Lannisters don’t make it, then possible Bran & the Children of the Forest. Who knows, we will just have to wait.
Hi-Fi,
That would be the easy way out, having an evil character do bad things so that the “good guys” don’t have to make any difficult choices.
The Starks have given the Lannisters shit for years for murdering the 2 Targaryen babies. It would be interesting to see them having too make that decision, too see if they can practice what they preach.
Imagine those Northerners faces when Wun Wun shows up with Jon….I’d say they may just start to entertain the idea of Wights, Walkers and the rest maybe?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It will be a bit disapointing (narratively speaking) if all the characters are pushed off to leave place to the “main character”. Like they did when they killed Barristan to leave Tyrion as main Dany advisor and then ruler of Meereen.
And Sansa’s character development will ruined again (and it will be repetitive) if she ends as the price wife and doesn’t has anything to say on her own marriage. Her claim to the North is stronger than Jon’s and she knows more about politics and life court than him, after all.
Jon has never been a supporting character.
Osentalka,
Not a supporting character, but not the Main Protagonist of Everything.
At this moment is the resurrected Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, Robb’s Heir, has a magic direwolf, is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Azor Ahai, the “savior” of the Wildings, the Hero against the Others, the “Lord of Winterfell” and you can add maybe dragon’s rider and Dany’s (or Sansa’s) future husband. That’s pretty impressive.
Damn I just can’t read this spoilers anymore, they’re gonna ruin the show for me. Just wanted to say that I am super-happy and those who know a bit about politics know why 😉
SlayerNina,
I know I am breaking my promise not to talk to you but…
Nina didn’t you say you will not watch S6? What are you doing on a thread…Where we disscuss S6..?
Pau,
Congratulations on your coalition winning! 🙂
Do you think it will lead to independence? It’s all a bit tense right now! We’re all watching intently —especially us Basques, understandably.
Barristan was a tertiary character most show-watchers couldn’t even name or knew anything about, even though the show had bothered to invent (or expand on) quite a few conversations from the books with Daenerys. Barristan’s two big conversations with Dany in Season 5 come from just a few lines of dialogue in ASOS! The books then, rather suddenly, turned him into a POV, which works because you already had his backstory and now you had access to his mind; but that wouldn’t work on the show, not by a long shot, because a visual medium is not that great at backstory or inner narration. It just makes sense to put in charge of Meereen the most important character currently located in Meereen, who happens to have experience running cities, and who happens to be one of the people’s favorite characters… instead of a tertiary character. They could’ve kept Barristan alive, I’ll grant you that, but they still should’ve and would’ve sidelined him and made Tyrion Hand / temporary ruler, just as they did. Because it makes more sense for the show. Since Tyrion was of course going to take up the mantle, they decided to give Barristan’s end some punch that it otherwise wouldn’t have gotten.
Luka Nieto,
Yes, is a tertiary character. Uninportant? Not at all. Why LF told Sansa the story of the tourney and not Barristan to Dany? It’s one of the few characters with a lot of information about the court and Westeros past, yet he remains on the background in silence. Daario sex toy has more dialogue in one season than Barristan in 5. They could had use him a lot more.
I myself am equally concerned about Jon’s swelling importance. What captivated me about ASOIAF/GOT in the first place was precisely the subversion of traditional fantasy narratives.
Yet the further into the story we are, the more I worry it may just end up as your usual underdog-turned-triumphant-hero trope, where the main focus is on the morally whitest of characters. Of course it’s possible Jon still dies in the end, but that’s not even the point – it’s about what type of character gets highlighted and given prominence in the overarching story.
It’s just that I’m so goddamn tired of traditional heroes and fantasy cliches, I was hoping this would finally be the time for a range of complex gray characters to take the spotlight.
And mind you, this is in no way a concern with the show exclusively, as – if Jon really does end up being nearly as important as I dread he might – it’s clearly down to GRRM’s vision.
Geralt of Rivia,
just a guess. I expect J will know all about what LF has done and will be J’s main target or rather I hope (other than the WW).
Amazing! I totally agree.
I was thinking about how Westeros resembles the Middle Ages while Essos and it’s city states are a lot closer to the Renaissance (except for the whole slavery thing).
Now we have a couple of “big player” characters in Essos getting familiar with “alternative governments”: Arya in Braavos, Dany, Tyrion, Varys of course…
My guess is they’ll bring back some ideas to Westeros. Heck, even the Dothraki and the Wildlings have a “more progressive”/ elected leadership, then the westerosi “first son gets everything” custom.
Kosten,
The first 3 books where quite good in breaking the ”cliches”
But AFFC/ADWD was your stereotipical fantasy story. And since then I knew the story will go more the magic/WW route rather then politics/game of thrones route.
So for me this is something I fully expected for quite some time. It does not bother me tough, but I can easly see why it would bother someone else.
Undead Ice Kraken,
Essos is more like the Roman empire/Greek city states/Persian empire/Ptalomaic Egipt, they are somewhat more advance then the middle ages, but they still have slavery.
SlayerNina,
Proportional to just how much dialogue there is in ADWD compared to Season 5, Barristan had way more lines and presence in the show than the books (until in the show they killed him and in the books he was made a POV, obviously.) In fact, they may be close even if you don’t take the proportional difference into account!
As I said, out of a few lines of dialogue in ASOS regarding Aerys’s madness and how great Rhaegar was, we got two extended scenes in Season 5 in which Barristan told stories of her father’s madness and her brother’s greatness, which were way more elaborate than in the books. He had similar moments in Season 3, too, both with Dany early on and Jorah in the mid-season; however, I do agree that he was sidelined too much in Season 4, in which his only great moment was the “answering injustice with mercy” speech early on.
Luka Nieto,
Selmy will very likely die in the battle of Mareen, in the books. Tyrion will take over with Jorah’s help. there you have it. What is missing? Selmy’s ridicolous plot against Hizdar, wich the show solved at Daznak. Simple. Not the overcomplicated, pointless ”conspiracy” we had in ADWD.
I may not be very objective here, as I absolutly hate Mareen in ADWD. But I enjoy the shows aproach, it’s more to the point, wich I love.
Mihnea,
Yeah i agree with you .
I think that it gets forgotten now, but 15 years ago “Who is Arstan?” was actually debated among SoI&F fans. Most people spotted him for Selmy: but there were a few other ideas (many of which were supported by “Selmy is too obvious and GRRM is too clever to go with the obvious!). Although we suspected, we didn’t know that Selmy was truly there until late in SoS: and that greatly diminished his actual presence.
It might be a subversion of fantasy narratives, but it’s very typical of normal literature. That’s what has made SoI&F stand out: it’s a “real” novel in a fantastic setting. Some of us had hopes that SoI&F could show that you could do modern storytelling in a fantastic setting. But that is also why Jon is not going to metamorphose into some messiah: it’s the gradual evolution of his character that is (and will be) important, not some arbitrary demi-god.
Because the audience had already heard it at a time when it was relevant to the story being told. Moreover, of what importance is this tale of the Tourney to Daenerys and her contributions to either the Season 4 or Season 5 stories? The time for us to see Daeny learning about it is either when it becomes important that we see she knows about it or when it is important for the audience to learn of it again and Daeny is the most convenient main character for doing that.
The hype is too much to handle!
And Lyanna fucking Mormont is my hero <3
One, book Stannis did have people burned, although I don’t recall if it was ever for heresy. Two, people burn heretics because they believe it is moral to do so. (Thomas More is a paragon of morality: and he burned heretics because it was the “right” thing to do according to his morality.
Now, you might not think that it’s moral: but that has no bearing on anyone else’s morality. Unlike ethics, there is no universal morality. (And that is part of why so many moralities are highly unethical.) The big reason why Stannis is such an unethical person is that he adheres strictly to a general’s morality: it is right to do whatever you need to do to defeat the enemy.
flintwielder,
Did you think they didn’t have the budget?
Geralt of Rivia,
Undead Ice Kraken,
I think it has less to do with anti-monarchist sentiment from GRRM than it does with the lack of any reality in Tolkien’s world. Tolkien was telling a tale of good vs. evil. In Tolkien’s moral universe, Monarchy is good and republicanism is bad. Sauron, Sauruman, Smaug, etc., are all allegories for different aspects of republicanism. However, Tolkien never gives any reason why monarchy is good: it is just assumed that the reader understands this.
GRRM is much more interested in the politics of human nature. His stories are about the identity crises of a few people: and politics are extremely useful there because politics almost always forces some compromise between what you want to attain and what you can attain, or between attaining Goal A or Goal B. And I will bet every Kiwi Dollar in my wallet (and the Ozzie ones, too!) that GRRM’s Battle of the Morannon is going to be solved by a political decision (or series of decisions) concerning White Walkers, R’hllor and other things, not Valyrian steel, magic fire-quenching or other “Toss the Ring into the Fire” analogs.
But along these lines, I doubt that there will be an elimination of monarchy. There simply are no primary characters who are republicans, and none of the identity crises of the lead characters have concerned monarchy vs. republicanism.
Why has nobody mentioned the fact that if the wildlings do fight, WUN WUN! imagine how awesome it will be to see the boltons faces when wun wun comes charging in 😀
Lord of Bones,
Tbh I’m surprised anyone is still questioning Kit’s acting ability. From what I’ve seen so far he can carry the character in whatever direction it needs to go.
Wimsey,
If the end is about a big battle between the Others/the Winter and Dany’s dragons for the sake of the Humankind, Martin will fall in the tropes he was trying to avoid or deconstruct in the first place. Complex characters and politics aside.
And I don’t see any usefulness to have LF telling the story, it doesn’t has any impact on Sansa’s narrative (she grew up here, she knew the story, she’s a Stark… the only relation I find with her and her actual state is the bit about “kidnapped and raped”… and adds nothing else). Even if we assume R+L=J is false, it doesn’t change people can have Jon as Lord of Winterfell or King in the North thank to Robb’s letter and Sansa Lannister and Bolton previous marriages (she runned away, but she’s still Lady Bolton in the eyes of gods and laws and now they can’t anuly that unless she’s widow again).
I find more compelling to give it to Dany, since all her claim to the throne and motivations (defeating the Usurpers) came directly from Lyanna’s kidnapping. She’s now a conquering queen, not the end of the dinasty.
Robb Snow,
Don’t the numbers get a little nutty. if Kartstark left with half of Robb’s army and Bolton’s army lives and looks to be about 5 thousand strong with Frey’s, how many bannermen of Stark were actually Stark loyalists? Sometimes the #’s get a little messed up because once you start subtracting everyone elses bannermen it seems like the Starks actually don’t have an army only the armies of other lords who show fealty to the starks.
RpCola,
I like it, bring on Howland!
Firannion,
I quite like Rupert Vansittart’s portrayal of Royce, but he was clearly not cast with an eye to the “legendary warrior” aspect of his character, so I wouldn’t expect to see that on the show.
Geralt of Rivia,
With the Smalljon in only two episodes, I don’t think the Umbers are going to be arriving in the story until the end of the season.
Gatehouse Ami,
No, southern armies have never advanced pass the Neck. I doubt it happens now.
Luka Nieto,
Barristan just popped out when they decided to kill him. Same as Shireen or all of Jon’s friends.
They did something similar in the Walking Dead,
It’s quite obvious, specially in shows.
JB,
This is the show not the books. Rickon is not with the Skagosi.
Rygritte,
So true! Had not considered that, but her comeback was short-lived!
ash,
I just don’t see Jon and Sansa having any chemistry together. Their personalities aren’t right for each other or something. I could see him getting with someone like Karsi (sp) if she hadn’t died.
WynterEnd,
I don’t think you are correct in that assumption. I think there is a connection to the Hobbit battle of 5 armies. But I am sure the crew came up with th 6 armies because of 1. it beats the Hobbit’s 5 armies and 2. in some way there are 6 armies.
When I think of army I think of who commands them.
Jon – Wildings/Starks
Umbers – SmallJon
Boltons – Ramsay/Roose
Vale – Littlefinger
Frey’s – Hosteen?
Karstark’s – new KarStark Lord – Cregan?
1. Jon and Wildlings and Starks
2. Umbers – are not necessarily loyal to Stark because Frey’s have GreatJon they could be wishy washy at first which allows to count them as a separate army.
3. Boltons
4. karstarks – in the books they play both sides and could in the show which means their men would be their own army.
5. Vale? He said he was going to show up after the Boltons and Stannis battle
6. Frey’s? – they are there. They don’t owe fealty to Bolton they are only allies so their men would be considered an army.
SlayerNina,
I think it was kind of clear at the end of Book 1 that Jon and Daenerys were in fact the closest things to main characters that the series had. All you had to notice was the parallelism between their stories. I would imagine that they will be key in the denouement of the story.
The Tower of Joy scenes are being filmed today and tomorrow, aren’t they? I’m desperate for more scoops though I’ll chide myself for spoiling anything 😀
Sullied by Knight,
Rygritte,
So true! Had not considered that, but her comeback was short-lived!
Hopefully, as one of the last Stark sons, his arc will have more than returning and dying.
Stargaryen,
There’s no sign of the Freys in the North in the show, and at this point I’d say it’s unlikely they’re going to appear there.
There’s similarly no indication in the show that the Freys have the Greatjon as a hostage (or any such hostages). The Umbers have (presumably) been hiding Rickon this whole time; they’re Stark loyalists.
Tywin of the Hill,
I actually believe Stannis is Azor Ahai the warrior of light and like Azor Ahai he forges Lightbringer by sacrificing the one thing he loves to save the world…his daughter.
Mel’s vision led Stannis to the Wall to Jon and since we know through Mirri Maaz Duur that “life pays for life” The LoL doesn’t (or does It?) cause the snows to melt..Mel realizes with the desertion and Selyse’s death that Stannis has played his part.
So she returns to the Wall where Jon is dead, but no worries because Shireen’s sacrifice will be the transaction to forge Lightbringer that is bring back to life the one man who could possibly unite all Westeros against the White Walkers, the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he of the blood of old Valyria and the blood of the First Men…Jon.
Jon Snow is Lightbringer forged by AzorAhai reborn (Stannis) to save the World.
Remember the verse from the Night’s Watch vow: “I am the sword in the darkness”.
I believe at some point in WoW Stannis will give the command to resurrect Jon Snow when Mel convinces him he is Lightbringer/or to save his army from destruction which he believes will save Westeros. So Stannis orders Shireen’s sacrifice.
In the books this will give Jon’s resurrection the onus of killing a girl to bring him back. So in the show B & W clear Jon of viewer hatred by having Stannis sacrifice Shireen BEFORE Jon is dead.
Both instances in the show and book allows George to subvert the magic sword of destiny trope and the Chosen One trope by sullying it with the death of Shireen. It thematically fits with everything we have seen in ASOIAF.
Remember the conversation Stannis has with Davos in season 3 about whether to spare Gendry? Or the mantra repeated by Mel? One life to save tens of thousands? This is the statement Martin is making, you cannot save the world without spilling innocent blood.
Interesting. I’ll add it to my collection of possible rationales and ramifications of Jon’s return in TWoW. Personally, I agree that Shireen may be the sacrifice that will lead to Jon’s new identity, but I just don’t see Stannis ever communicating with anyone at the wall again. Mel will probably react based on the pink letter and her visions. A bit of Stannis reborn in Jon? Intriguing…
Thanks a lot!!
I always thought that all of this would end up in a new pact between us and the state, but now I think that is 50-50 in the short run, and 100% in the long, 40-50y run.
You have to understand that unlike the basques, the national conscience of the catalans was not something people would talk about. But once people has debated about a topic, any topic, for hours and hours, their positions solidify and it’s very hard to go back on them. So it will come, sooner or later 😉
And by the same token, if it ends with restoring a king or queen, then one could argue that GRRM is falling for the trope. As pretty much everything has been done by someone somewhere sometime, we can point and say “trope” if we want to do so.
However, there is a key difference between what GRRM seems to be doing and the traditional “trope.” The classic fantasy motif is for Armageddon to be decided by some analog of dropping the Ring into the fire. Some singular act (and often a very arbitrary act with respect to any dynamic character development of main characters) defeats the bad guys. If GRRM has the humans defeat the Others by finding troves of Valyrian steel swords or obsidian blades, or by just roasting them with dragons, then he will be falling for that trope.
Conversely, if GRRM has Jon, Daeny, Tryion, Arya and Bran (the five primary characters) work out the important resolutions concerning the White Walkers (and R’hllor, I suspect) based on what they have learned about sociopolitical behavior, then this could be colloquially described as a subverted trope. Basically, GRRM will have a device typical of the sort of books that get nominated for Booker awards in a general plot that is typical of books that get nominated for Hugos.
But that is also why I expect that War of X Kings and Queens to be wrapped up first. In a lot of ways, that is the “playoffs” for the championship game against the gods. And the lessons learned in those playoffs should (really, had better!) be very germane to the solutions in the end.
On the contrary, if Sansa is going to become a standard bearer for the Starks, then a reminder of past wrongs done to the Starks is important. We need to see that Sansa then and there that Sansa has a fire lit within her concerning wrongs done to her family. However, it has no bearing on Daeny just now: it is just world-building trivia.
SlayerNina,
Yeah, my brother is actually friends with the actress involved. (There is some connection due to the fact he’s a musician: I don’t know exactly what.) Basically, she was just a minor person who was there because, well, they needed background characters. She was never supposed to be on long: but they never got around to writing her out! And as she always had a line or two, they wound up developing her character (much more fully than shown on TV, evidently) just to establish what she should say. Then I guess that they realized that they’d kept her around too long to just ignore. (She wouldn’t say so, but my brother felt that they also decided she was a decent enough actress that they could use her character for a part: so, it turned into a break.)
Hodor’s Bastard,
Yeah the one flaw in my theory is how Stannis makes the sacrifice in WoW if he is not at the Wall with Shireen. No sacrifice = not Azor Ahai reborn.
So he must order it for my theory to work but how? Here we have all the pieces in play, a confluence of events beginning with Rhaegar and Lyanna culminating with Jon’s resurrection. Why have Mel at the Wall at the exact moment Jon is killed?
Why have a Macbethian downfall for Stannis and kill Shireen before Jon on the show if not to take the onus off of Jon’s return?
Armies can mean a bunch of different things. In the Game Of Thrones TellTale game Asher shows up with 15 to 20 people and that is considered an army. So with that said an army is a group of men lead by one man. So to determine what is exactly an army we have to determine the leaders
Jon – Wildings and remaining Starks (mormonts and hornwoods)
SmallJon – Umbers and clansmen. I separate Umbers and Jon because I am assuming the Umbers had to show some fealty because GreatJon is captive of Red Wedding.
Roose/Ramsay – Boltons
Karstarks – in the books they play both sides, I know secretly with Roose, but still play both sides because I think they just want to be on winning side so is the leader Cregan?
Littlefinger – one has to be the Vale right, in the show he said he will take the army and clean up the leftovers of Stannis/Roose battle
I claim the Frey’s are the 6th army. A couple reasons, one Walda is there and Walder doesn’t want to see Walda the one Frey who has reached high status, could potentially be a queen of the North get hurt. Her sons could be warden of the north, king of the north, lord of dreadfort/winterfell they are endless so Walder would send men to protect his and her interests. Also can’t be ironborn because I think their story is attached to Dany’s not the north.
Please delay the independence revolution and subsequent social/economic destabilization in Catalunya until after S6 finishes filming!
Jk…congrats, Pau.
Kosten,
How about the Chosen One being brought back only due to the sacrifice of an innocent young girl? No magic ring, no sword of destiny simply killing an innocent to save thousands? If that is not a subversion of the standard fantasy tropes than I don’t know what it is?
What if the one way to defeat Sauron was for Aragorn to sacrifice Arwen? That would out a dark pall over the final victory against Sauron wouldn’t it?
Hodor’s Bastard,
If shireen dies to bring Jon back then I really wish they would have showed its at way on the show. Feel like stannis gets a bad rap
Shane snow,
Well Shireen’s sacrifice still brings Jon back, as it allowed Mell to return to the wall.
Of course this is all speculation, as we have no idea how Jon comes back. I for one doubt Mell/Selyse will do it in the books. I still think Stannis will end up doing it, in the end.
Joshua Atreides,
I do like the idea of stannis sacrificing shireen to bring Jon back.. It has a feel of how of stannis killing his nissa nissa to reforge or rebirth Jon if you wilk
Sean C.,
Walda Frey is in the North. You never send a female noble family member without protection from loyal men. There are Frey retainers in the North. The show does not have to go out of it’s way to show that in season 5. No point. If the battle is not until episode 9 then they have 8 episodes to get men from the Twins to Winterfell. Which is not a long trip.
Watch Season 3 episode 10. We do know for a fact that Edmure Tully is a hostage of the Red Wedding. There is no mention that the GreatJon was killed either. If the GreatJon was captured (like the books) then that means the Umbers have to be good and loyal to Boltons or GreatJon dies. They get Rickon but not a huge army not enough to take on Bolton, if they had the GreatJon and nothing bad can happen the Umbers if they attacked what are they waiting for? Why not get with Stannis? There is a reason the northern lords still loyal to Stark have not attacked. Again, the GreatJon was not a major character and disappeared after season 1 due to scheduling conflicts so the show does not have to go out of its way to explain the GreatJon’s fate. It can easily be cleared up in a matter of 3 sentences in an early episode.
I am aware the Umbers presumably have Rickon. I am speculating that they haven’t been fighting the Boltons because GreatJon will be killed if they rebel. Also, the show is going back to the Riverlands in season6.
SPOILERS
it is speculated that the BWB will free hostages of the Red Wedding when Jamie wants them moved from Twins to KL. Which allows the lords of the north who couldn’t rebel due to captives of the Red Wedding to be able to rebel.
6 armies…
Jon Snow led Wildlings
Stark Loyalists
Boltons
Freys
Ironborn
And the Lady Stoneheart led Brotherhood
Don’t give up the dream people.
It would not be difficult to have Frey-garbed extras, if there were meant to be Freys there. There aren’t any, nor any mention of Frey soldiers being sent North, even when Roose is discussing the forces at his disposal. There’s simply not any basis to assume there are Freys there.
Per Bryan Cogman, the Greatjon was not at the Red Wedding.
Though I think they may retcon that he was killed there (or elsewhere), if he’s not going to be reintroduced into the narrative, which the casting of the Smalljon suggests.
If the Boltons had any leverage over the other Northern noble houses in the form of hostages, that would have been mentioned when Roose was discussing their (supposedly, seeing as we really see no evidence of that) precarious situation in the North.
Stargaryen,
Is that from the books, a website, or is it just random speculation about something that could *possibly* occur (when there are hundreds of possibilities)? Just curious if you have a source for this info.
The thing is that there are at least two banners with the blue-white checker and golden discs.
I’ve read The Hobbit long time ago and I’ve also seen the 3 movies, but I never understood which were the 5 armies. I really had to google it to know. Actually there were only 3 opponents: First 1) The dwarves against 2) the men and the elves. And then the dwarves, men and elves against the 3) orcs/goblins/wargs.
I guess it will be the same with the battle of 6 armies. There will only be 2 or 3 or maybe 4 opponents and the rest of the houses will follow the Starks or the Boltons.
1) Stark loyalists (with Umber/Mormont) & Wildlings
2) Bolton loyalists (with probably Karstarks)
3) The Night’s Watch and maybe The Vale if involved will choose 1) or 2)
4) Maybe also White walkers and Wights who are against 1) en 2)
Dipshit,
The War of the Ninepenny Kings (?)
In S1, definitely not. Nowadays they have.
The Tattered Prince,
You mean like Jon having to decide between killing Q’orhin Halfhand to assuage the Wildings suspicion and serve the NW as a spy? Or when he had to choose to betray the woman he loved for the NW he was sworn to? Or when Ned lied and said he’d committed treason to save his daughters? Or Sansa having to decide to tell Margaery the truth about Joffrey or keep silent to keep herself safe? Or when Jon had to decide whether to forgive Wildlings like Tormund who participated in raiding the Villages (like Olly’s) in order to make peace (this is a show only one)? The Starks have had to make quite a few hard decisions to hurt innocents (Olly is the perfect example really) in order to achieve a greater good.
You can certainly argue whether that constitutes good/ethical decisions but you can’t argue that they haven’t been faced with difficult ethical choices akin to what the Lannisters had done. Also realize the killing of those two Targ babies was for pure naked ambition and didn’t have to do with survival. Most if not all of the decisions the Starks have made have been either in order to survive, to guarantee the survival of humans or for vengeance (as is mostly the case with Arya).
Well, Stannis will always have that “bad rap” debate associated with him. On the one hand, he used magic to do his dirty work (Penrose/Renly); on the other hand, he killed one to save many. On the one hand, he was a great commander (defeating the ironborn, then stopping the wildling attack); on the other hand, he led his men into “all or nothing” suicide missions (KL and WF). On the one hand, he was determined and unbending; on the other hand, he was delusional and too extreme. Blah, blah, blah…
Regardless, all we have are his statements regarding “no more burning” and “Shireen is my heir” and “do not stop, even if you hear of my death” and his intentional distance from Mel/Shireen/Selyse on the page as compared to what happened in S5ep9. Personally, I don’t think book Stannis will make that show decision (and his “twist” from sharing with and hugging his daughter to his delusional decision to sacrifice her was fucking gut-wrenching) but there will be a never-ending debate regarding his historical place and reputation. He was simply designed that way.
Well, in my eyes no, not really – after all, it’s not even Jon sacrificing her. Had it actually been him doing the deed, then perhaps we’d be getting somewhere, yes. As it is, the sacrifice would/will only add to his feeling of guilt and perceived goodness.
Although, to be fair, I’m not sure there’s any variation of the trope I personally could possibly be content with as long as it still operates with the concept of “the chosen one”.
Sean C.:
The Smalljon will only appear in 2 episodes. Shouldn’t the head of House Umber appear in more?
Tywin of the Hill,
I just want to point out that if he dies, it isn’t retcon. He wasn’t at the RW, that’s all.
But him dieing now is NOT retcon. Retcon would be if it was known he died, and know they decided to change that, by briging him back.
And I know what Cogman said, but that matters little compared to what is shown in the show itself.
That is all!
Tywin of the Hill,
Only if the Umbers are going to be a big part of this season, which a lot of people are assuming, but since the only Umber character we know of is in only two episodes, I question the basis for that.
We don’t generally get nearly as much information about returning actors as opposed to new ones, but there’s been zilch indicating that Clive Mantle is back, and the casting for the Smalljon very specifically talks about him as a “lord” and as the head of his noble house.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Seven Hells! Say it ain’t so. No thank you. 🙁
Stargaryen,
The current situation notwithstanding, that is almost always the case in a feudal society anyway. They House family might have troops but the biggest part of their army comes from their pledged houses. And the show does hint that there are many in the community that still support House Stark and are simply waiting for a chance to help. They could simply throw in a single line about “rousing the local populace” to come and fight for the Starks and TV magic voila, they’ve got “Stark” troops.
Stargaryen,
That would be true for most families. However, Walder Frey has a million kids, trueborn and bastards, and even more grandchildren and great-grandchildren. He is selling them off like cattle. He probably doesn’t give two poops about Walda at this point. Plus, he’s probably the least honorable man in the whole story and that goes to show you just what a jerk he is. Add to the fact that it is well noted in the books and the show that Walder never, ever commits troops to anything while there is fighting going on. He always sits it out and waits to see who he should side with. I sincerely doubt there will be any Frey’s in the North.
Hodor’s Bastard,
It’s a feature, not a flaw? LOL, probably true. GRRM and D&D know how to jerk our chains, fer sure.
Dame Pasty,
Yes
I can’t see book Stannis sanctioning this at all. And in the books Selyse is clearly fond of Shireen. My bet is that Mel burns her with the aid of some wildlings (after all they see her as accursed and better off dead anyway). Patchface has a role to play in all of this too I’d say- otherwise what’s the point of including him at all?
Thanks!! The plan is 18 months from January so it will be right in the middle of S8 filming, quite adequate if you have to believe the disaster prophets out there 😉
Apollo,
Same point as puting Quentyn in, or Nimble D*ck, all the people in Mareen, or all of the other pointless character. Patchface is another one of those pointless characters that the fans turned into some big mistery, with ”well tought” theories.
I’m not going to enter a debate on this tough. I’m not 100% sure he will do it, myself. More around 65-70%.
Also it is what D&D said, and I for one, belive them. I’m not in denial like other people, and I fully expect Martin told them exactly what happens.
But frankly I don’t care who burns her. I loved Stannis’s end on the show, so for me it doesn’t really matter what happens in the books. I won’t even read them before the show is done.
EDIT: Here is my theory. Mellisandre goes to Stannis’s camp with Shireen/Selyse. The Boltons would have already beaten Stannis quite badly, he acceps to burn her. Then things happen like it did on the show.
It could hapen this way, it could happen a very diferent way. I frankly do not care, as I won’t be reading any of these books until at least 2018. Thats if, they ever come out.
The only problem is that Stannis does not really have much of a connection with Jon. There is actually another theory with the same premise as this one, where the chosen one is already dead. It is a theory about Rheager actually being Azor Ahai, and that Jon is Lightbringer.
Wimsey,
What actress are you talking about? I’m lost.
World building shouldn’t mean “has a character lecturing another”, at least, not being so obvious, like the famous Obara’s speech.
5 main Martin’s characters have shifted a bit with the passing of time… I would add Cersei and Sansa maybe to that ensemble.
I’m not really ok with such amount of awesomeness in just one character, that’s all (same for Arya, Tyrion and Dany -Bran is out because visions aside, he can’t do anything else, like change the politics of the realms or go to the toilet on his own). The most awesome, the most boring or predictable they become. Personally, it kinda ruins the “realism” and Martin’s plot twists, I think.
Podéis añadir unas cuantas banderitas… Camufladas entre las del resto de ejércitos seguro que no se nota XD
Be careful what you wish for, my friend!
Regarding S8, they should be filming in northern Canada or Siberia at that point, so I doubt there will be a conflict. 🙂 Arriba l’hivern!
Apparently we will see the Wights climbing the Wall as early as episode one. We will then see them rebuilding the Night Fort before fading luxuriously down the Wall into the Haunted Forest where we will see a White Walker in fancy robes closed eyes concentrating, it will be implied he is controlling the Wights and needs to be in relative close quarters to do so. He will have two primitive looking White Walkers accompanying him on chains. Similar to the White Walkers we saw in season one.
I get the gist that the Nights King will effortlessly retake the new and improved Nights Fort in the final scene of episode 10.
Calling it now! One army is the BwoB led by LSH and Blackfish. Another reveals that Brienne did NOT kill Stannis but instead they forged an alliance and are now leading what’s left of Stannis’ army, Pod, Sansa and Reek in tow.
I don’t even care who the other 4 armies are. GET HYPE!!
The Pot,
I have no idea what you are smoking…But I want some of it too.
The Pot,
Meow?
Mihnea,
Haha. I was thinking the same thing!
I can see it now – it’s going to take me several hours to watch this episode as I’ll be busy pausing to look for clues, and too nervous to continue. And there will be only one episode left. Bring on season seven!
Robb Snow,
And what do think about Sansa ? , every time I think about her and her rule in this battle I get a headache ? ! , In the books she’s almost have the Vale army in her hands or at least she’s trying
But in the show ? She has nothing, really nothing at all
There was no sense to delete the whole Vale storyline, I hoped they keep the Game-of-Thrones-conversations between Petyr and Sansa , just that little part ? , do you think (in the show) she’ll be back in the Vale? Or she’ll go to the Wall ?
And here is another question : if Jon is the one who will lead the Northern army against the Boltons and the one who will bring WF back then what the point of Sansa’s character in this series? , I always thought that Sansa is the one who lead the Northern/Vale army and Jon who lead the Wildings , not Jon leading them both, I mean bring WF back from the Boltonts would be the point of Sansa’s character in the series and why she’s still alive till now , because otherwise she’ll be just a good written character with a Disney dreams and wasting lines like “I’m not your daughter…” line ?
MeeraReed,
There are only 2 posibilities here:
1. She won’t watch S6, just like she said. But she will come on S6 threads just to remind us how much she hates this show. What I find absurd, if you don’t like it, and stopped watching it, then what are you doing on a thread, about a season you claimed, you won’t watch.
2. She will watch the season, but proceed to hate it, wich is also absurd. Why watch something you hate? I stopped watching The Walking Dead when I didn’t enjoy it anymore. But you don’t see me on TWD FAN-SITE (I’m stressing out this word, as a fan-site means you like the show/movie. ) reminding people that I don’t like the show, that they enjoy.
Both possibilities are equally absurd.
blood of winterfell,
Sansa will most like;y team up with Rickon/Umber to take back WF, thus gaining a northern army, I expect Jon to arrive with the wildlings later. Also I find it ver unlikely for Sansa too ever ”lead” some army, she isn’t a fighter, nor has any knowladge about such things.
Same in the books, if she marries Harry and actoully gains the Vale, it would be Harry who leads it, or LF/Royce,..etc. Also Sansa has no army in the books. She is what she always was, a puppet. And she will continue to be one as long as she is in the Vale, either to LF or Harry.
Here in the North she has an actualle chance of doing something. She knows Rickon/Bran lives. She knows that they both come before her. So I expect her story to be in restoring the Starks/helping Rickon.
If anything, she will be a victim for longer in the books until she gets away from LF/Harry.
Matt,
?
Have I been pronouncing Europe (Yer-up) wrong for 50 years?
Is is actually You-rup?
Stranger’s Pooper Scooper,
Well that is how I say it…
TheTouchOfFrost,
Sorry, posted before I saw your comment. Guess it is a You-rup-pee-on way to pronounce Yer-up and Yer-on. Learn something useless every day…
Kosten,
Ha, you really cant please everyone. Every fan that wants characters to behave their way 🙂 Its George’s vision and so far he’s been able to deliver a solid story full of complex characters. Even the prototypical good guys like Ned and Jon, are full of bad judgements. Dany, who is being poised as the saviour is hardheaded and constantly makes mistakes. All of these “heroes” are hotmesses.com. It will be fun to see this bittersweet ending that George has promised. I only hope fans will be able to appreciate the sweet part as much as the bitter (and vice versa).
Tropes, tropes, tropes… such an overused word. Why must “tropes” now be a bad thing that should be avoided? Would any of you even know or care about what a “trope” is if you hadn’t read or heard someone else say tropes are bad first? I have my doubts.
blood of winterfell,
Sansa will probably be escorted to the Wall by Brienne and reunite with Jon, and she’ll hopefully compel him to think beyond the Night’s Watch and actually get involved in Northern politics like Davos tried to get him to do last season. She’ll also get the ball rolling on locating Rickon at least since Bran has gone beyond the Wall and is pretty much inaccessible at this point.
I actually foresee Jon and Sansa’s reunion being somewhat bitter. They’ve never been particularly close, and I think Sansa has cause to scold Jon for abandoning his family for the Night’s Watch in the first place, not taking any action against the Ironborn and the Boltons, and not searching for Bran and Rickon even though he knew they were alive.
I also think some of you expect too much from your self-insert… err, I mean Sansa. The writers aren’t just gonna flip a switch and have her go from being a victim to suddenly being a conqueror… and it would be bad writing if they did. Sansa has come far in her development, but she still has far to go before she’d ever be what some of you want her to be. So temper your expectations.
He really is the main protagonist of everything though, or at the very least as close to one as this story is ever going to get. I think most people agree the story is ultimately about the White Walkers and their ancient race waking and attacking once more. Jon from the midway point of the first book is the main and for a long time only POV character that is in that sphere and giving us information about what is happening in that general direction. All the other stories of war and politics is going to wind up secondary to that story in the end.
Robb Snow,
Very well said!! Fully agree with you, people have way to big expectations of what Sansa will do/should do.
Boudica,
But what does Rhaegar sacrifice? Who is his Nissa Nissa? Is it Lyanna and her death from sepsis after birthing Jon who is therefore Lightbringer? Possibly but what if Rhaegar obsessed with prophecy knew he must cause a war to fulfill the AA prophecy?
By kidnapping/eloping with Lyanna and creating Jon the Prince that was Promised? This sets off a chain of events that end with Jon, Stannis and Mel at the wall. Jon doesn’t need to have the connection to Stannis. Because Stannis sacrifices his daughter to save his army which he believes is essential to the Battle for the Dawn.
So if “death pays for life” than Mel must have been told the LoL to go back to the Wall. Shireen’s death isn’t to merely cause the snow to melt it’s to create the blood magic necessary for Mel to raise Jon
from the dead, thereby forging Lightbringer.
Heck with this theory maybe R+L doesn’t have to = J. Jon is
the one person who knows the WW menace and can unite the Wildings with the loyalist NW
and the Northern bannermen, especially if he is brought back
to life as a saviour. He can be Lightbringer and still be Ned’s bastard! Whereas R + L
need only be the catalyst to the forging of Lightbringer.
Since people’s thoughts about the ending of the series have been trickling through these posts I just wanted to offer my thoughts.
I really do think the biggest battle will be at the end of the series, and by the sounds of it, with GRRM wanting to share the aftermath with people, we will get to see how the realm settles and what it will settle to. But the TV series itself may just end for the most part with the battle as other fantasy series, simply to end it with a bang. HBO seems to be the type of company that wants shock, and uproar and what better way to do that then with the final climax. This leads me to my next thought.
I’ve heard GRRM say that the ending of the series will be “bittersweet.” Everything in me says
Whatever D&D decide as an appropriate ending to the TV series, I’m sure it will be respectful to the source material they are adapting, and will be visually and emotionally stunning to the point we will need to turn this site into a withdrawal, grief counselling and therapy device 😉
SciFiFantasyGirl,
I don’t even want to imagine how it will be to have no GOT.
As corny as this sounds, GOT has been part of my life for the last 5 years. Summers will feel very ”empty” without it.
I wonder if they’ll cast a little girl to play Lyanna Mormont. They specifically mentioned her as “the lady of Bear Island” last season rather than Alysanne. Not for the battle, but if the heads of the Northern houses get together to plot/argue, there must be some representative of House Mormont present, right? I mean she could send someone but what a missed opportunity that would be, she sounds so feisty!
She and Jon could have a chat about how she’s named after his “aunt.” Lol.
thornofhighgarden,
They could combine Lyanna and Alysanne, into one character.
Oh my gosh THANK YOU for coming out and saying this. It’s the same as what I said about comparing literature to the point of saying “this is better than that” etc. Everyone can have their own opinions on material; preferences on direction ect, but don’t shut down what you simply don’t like. The impact of the stories aren’t always about the endings. LOTR may have had a “happy” ending but for goodness sake, the journey to get there was incredible, filled with tragedy, courage, loss, friendship, and so much more.
Every story has a climactic ending, something that is the reward for watching everything that came before it. White Walkers have been clearly laid out as the greatest foe to all of Westeros. What we are watching now is not just a battle for a throne but the gathering of the realm to get to the point that they can beat such a foe. A foe that is “almost” impossible to kill. Label it as “trope”, but other than the annihilation of the entirety of Westeros, there isn’t really any other way to go in regards to an ending, lol.
I felt the same way with LOTR and and though a bit less, the Hobbit as well. I just want Tolkien’s world to visually keep going and going and I know it will be the same when GOT ends. Add me on facebook and twitter and we can cry together, lol.
I’d love for GRRM to write some prequel stuff though I can’t see him living long enough with how long it takes for him to write. Tolkien wrote right from the very beginning of the existence of Middle Earth. (what was in pieces his son put together and released). I wouldn’t expect GRRM to go that far but it would be great to have a prequel series based on the many dreams, flashbacks and historical information he littered throughout ASOIAF. From everything I see on the net, the interest is definitely there.
SciFiFantasyGirl,
I still hope/pray that HBO does a ”Robert’s Rebellion” prequell, after GOT ends.
I don’t see why they wouldn’t. It’s easy money.
Like two chimps grooming eachother.
Stranger’s Pooper Scooper,
English is a harsh mistress! Glad I’m a native speaker as it must be horrific to learn. Even more so when English-speaking nations have a habit of adding and adapting words at an astonishing rate! Speaking for England, the amount we play with the language is ridiculous so I apologise for anyone trying to learn it!
Mihnea,
Holy shit…somehing we agree on! Although I hope money isn’t the sole motivation. I think it would really add to the current GoT and add new layers to existing stories and characters.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Thank you for insulting me!
You know, while I didn’t agree with you on most things, I tought you better then the likes of Chad Brick.
For me, I’d like to see how Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya conquered Westeros originally, or some Dunk & Egg adventures.
Flora Linden,
I never expect a ”Aegon’s conquest” series, it seams a bit to hard to make.
But I could totally see a ”Dunk/Egg” miniseries.
I’ll happily relieve you of those. And yes, to someone who wants his literature, series and movies to be complex, thought-provoking and stir up some ambivalence, tropes are bad.
I’ve no doubt there are plenty of people with different expectations when it comes to entertainment, and that’s perfectly fine – I’m just pointing out that there is an awful shortage of … uh, different narratives and alternatives – in the fantasy genre especially. Now, GRRM/David & Dan certainly set out to improve on that – judging by the material released thus far – which is precisely why the disappointment would be that much bigger.
And again, this is no critique of any actual fault, merely an expression of concern about the potential future developments. Both D&D and GRRM may still very well deliver.
Mihnea,
I’m sorry but condoning Flint’s childish insults makes you no better than them. Chad sticks to his opinions and can be a little narrow-minded with them but I’ve never seen him post a post that is purely name-calling and designed to be offensive. I’ve yet to see Flint make a post that isn’t designed to insult someone. Their oversuse of “book wanke” suggests that they’re either about 11, have a severly limited vocabulary or an unhealthy obsession with masturbating…posssibly all three.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Chad has insulted many people, many times. Including me. By name-calling and looking down upon those that didn’t agreed with his opinions.
But no point in talking this anymore. It apears I’ve had a wrong opinion about you.
Lets not engage with one another anymore, I belive this to be the simplest and best way to enjoy this site.
So taking out a large final battle trope, and a peaceful happy ending style trope, what would you enjoy? What are you expecting to give the series closure?
After all of the unmitigated death, suffering, and destruction in this series, I would actually really enjoy having a “trope” or two at the end to make it all feel at least a little worth it.
Really, if you try too hard to subvert every single little trope or convention in your stories it will start to feel forced and pretentious. It’s okay to stick to convention a bit.
Mihnea,
Sounds good to me. I’d seriously think if you want to encourage people like Flint, though. No idea how he’s not been banned yet and continues to linger around like an unpleasant smell.
TheTouchOfFrost,
The same reason why no one banned Chad when he started insulting people.
Actually, neither a large final battle nor a happy ending are by default a problem.
There’s been no indication that anybody thinks he abandoned them by joining the Night’s Watch; they all know the Watch is meant to be neutral. Seeing family again has been the thing pretty much all the Starks have wanted most.
It was the writers who dropped Sansa into this plotline, so yes, there had better be a spectacular payoff for her out of it. If they wanted to do a story where Sansa gradually learns to play the game, well, GRRM wrote that story, and they cut it.
Then I’m not really understanding. What is it that you hope to see then that you wouldn’t consider to be in line with “trope?”
Sean C.,
I don’t want to enter a long disscussion with you, so I would appreciate a short answer.
Have you ever tought, that perhaps, you and Martin have different view, on what ”playing the game” entails?
Sean C.,
Robb Snow:
I actually foresee Jon and Sansa’s reunion being somewhat bitter. They’ve never been particularly close, and I think Sansa has cause to scold Jon for abandoning his family for the Night’s Watch in the first place, not taking any action against the Ironborn and the Boltons, and not searching for Bran and Rickon even though he knew they were alive.
There’s been no indication that anybody thinks he abandoned them by joining the Night’s Watch; they all know the Watch is meant to be neutral. Seeing family again has been the thing pretty much all the Starks have wanted most.
I agree with your reply. There should not be any hard feelings. It has been a while since I watched Season 1, but I am pretty sure Cat told Jon, after Ned left for KL, that she wants him to leave.
Mihnea,
My view on what “playing the game” entails is based on Martin’s books. I certainly don’t know the contents of his mind, but I don’t see how my view of what it is is inconsistent with anything he’s written.
Obviously the Sansa at the end of ASOS (or AFFC) is not ready to march into Winterfell and singlehandedly bring down the Boltons (even if that were possible to begin with). That’s why GRRM didn’t send her to Winterfell to try to singlehandedly bring down the Boltons. When the writers chose to cut her training story and tossed her back into the deep end of the pool immediately so that she could almost drown worse than ever and then get rescued again, they were creating their own expectations for how this storyline in season 6 would have to go in order to have anything like an adequate payoff for what they’ve put the character through.
Sean C.,
That wasn’t a short answer but ok.
I hope you get what you want in TWOW, I doubt it, but I hope you get the story you want. I already got the story I want.
Well of course we know that as the audience, but Sansa might not see it that way at first. When you’ve had extremely traumatic experiences like Sansa and are overcome with emotion, you can lash out at people for things that aren’t really their fault or that they had no way of knowing or doing anything about… and I could definitely see Sansa lashing out at Jon a bit. I’m not saying she will do that, but it wouldn’t be unexpected and no one could rightly fault her for it.
It could also be part of what motivates Jon to see beyond the Night’s Watch, to get out and “wade in the muck” like Davos suggested.
SciFiFantasyGirl,
Perhaps we misunderstand what Kosten is looking for in the ending specifically.
Mihnea,
I expect a story where Sansa continues to learn her applicable skill set, like her siblings, and faces myriad obstacles and moral quandries, also like them. Anything beyond that is speculative.
Sean C.,
Whatever you want, mate. I hope you get.
Robb Snow,
She seemed quite heartened to hear about his success from what little we saw last season (which is akin to her response in the book, in a very different context). Obviously if she got there and he refused to help her she might have different thoughts, but that seems pretty unlikely since if she gets to the Wall he’ll have come back from the dead and probably be putting down mutineers — and he certainly didn’t refuse to help, e.g., Alys Karstark in the books, and he barely knew her.
Sean C.,
Well I wouldn’t expect her to feel that way about Jon forever! I just mean she might initially lash out at him for not “being there” and perhaps for not looking more into Bran and Rickon’s whereabouts if he already knew they were alive (which might even be a valid criticism depending on your view), then of course calm down and move on.
I think we’ve all done something like that before at least once in our lives, and Sansa would have more cause to lash out than most.
Mihnea,
Never seen them insult anyone. Yet everytime I’ve seen Flint post he’s spitting abuse at someone. Everyone can get a little heated at times but most people here at least try and have a reasonable debate along with it. Your buddy is only interested in flame wars.
Mihnea,
I look forward to having this conversation again in a week, and every week for the next 8 months. ?
Wardenness/Queen of the Riverlands IMO
Luka Nieto,
There’s no debate at all to the five armies. Humans. Elves. Dwarves. Monsters of evil (eg orcs). Eagles.
If you zoom in on the shield on the soldiers you can clearly see the dire wolf. OH YES!
serum,
HODOR?!
Erik,
Stop Hodor, no more Hodoring.
Blurry,
May you slip and fall in a Puddle of Mudd, which will taint your vision and cause much derision!
“Everyone is changing
There’s no one left that’s real
So make up your own ending
And let me know just how you feel”
🙂
Luka Nieto,
I don’t think they literally meant six separate armies. What they mean, I believe, is to say that this fight scene will be larger, more spectacular, longer, etc. than the fight scene in “The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.” The reason for the comment (eat that Hobbits!)
Just what I gathered anyway…
I know this is really late in the convo, but that looks like House Wull, which is in the northwest. Theo Wull was slain at the Tower of Joy fighting with Ned Stark. House Wull’s banner has wooden buckets on a blue field. We might meet Theo Wull in the tower of Joy flashback next week.