The recent two year anniversary of the Game of Thrones finale got me thinking about how the fandom’s relationship with the world of Westeros has changed since HBO first announced that they would be producing spinoffs … and how that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
Are you excited for House of the Dragon? Tell us your thoughts below.
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Holy crap, Petra – this is so well put together, and such a great and astute analysis. I expect nothing less! Bravo!
I have similar thoughts as well. If the story can stand on its own merit, create compelling, complex, and interesting characters with engaging stories that result in viewer investment, it can form its own audience who are here for this particular story (even though we also know how HotD itself going to end — the story itself and how the writers flesh it out can be compelling, especially because the source material provides space to add and fill out characters into human beings). I think that it happens 200 years prior to the events of ASOIAF may help as well.
I think my favourite prequel idea is Nymeria because it deals with a lesser known area of this history but still a legendary story. Still, again, I think HotD has a lot of potential to be done well and allow for fleshing out of characters described in the fairly dry terms of in-universe history texts. While the bare bones of the narrative are available for all to see, there’s creative freedom as well.
Thanks Petra. First, I enjoyed watching your video format instead of reading an article. I enjoyed the animations.
Regarding knowing how it ends, I think I’ll be able to separate the events in GOT from what we see in the prequel. There have been many movies with alternate time lines (the Chris Pine Star Trek for example). Because I’m a sci-fi geek, I know I won’t be tied to thinking about how it ended on the show for Dany and the Targaryen line.
I thought introducing the Crows early in Shadow and Bone was brilliant. What hooks people in are good characters. The Crows were well developed in the show and my favorite part of the 1st season. I did not read the books, so it definitely worked for me. I read some of the novella’s related to HoTd, but I haven’t delved into GRRM’s Fire & Blood. It’s hard for me to get into that style of narration. And I’m bad at remembering history details, which is why I wasn’t a history major. So I think I will be coming from a non book perspective as the show introduces the characters.
I have delved into many other fantasy sci-fi shows since GOT, and I can say GOT is by far superior in dialogue, special effects, music, character development, and more. I just finished watching Cursed (for example). I enjoyed many aspects of the show, but many others were just laughable compared to the level of expertise offered by the GOT team. I’m hoping HoTD does keep all of those elements, such as costume design, music, writing, acting, battle sequence attention to detail, and so much more. When you look at how battles were staged in shows like Cursed, it makes you appreciate GOT so much more. I hope these elements get carried over. I think they are off to a good start with the main cast. I agree with you that the show is more likely to stand on its own, since there was such a backlash. I’m looking forward to anxiously awaiting the next episode like I did with GOT.
I am exited, yes.
I always saw the threat of fire being represented by revenge. We already saw the consequences of revenge in ASOIAF. We will see it pretty well when “fire will reign”.
As for the rest, I am sure the story is not quite as the maesters wrote it in the history books. It never is.
(Here was my reaction after watching Petra’s video essay but before reading your comment):
Wow, Petra, brilli*nt video essay! Fantastic speaking voice; perfect diction. (Petra… you ought to narrate audio books. I’m serious.)
So, before I watch your video I have to admit that I’m a little worried already because this show has to accomplish two things in order to survive:
1. It has to stand on its on, in an era of constant remakes and reboots and such, HoTD desperately needs to prove the audience why this amazing storyline has to be told, that it isn’t another “cash grab”.
2. And yet, at the same time, it has to, somehow, redeem seasons 7 and 8, which is gonna be hard because…well, they were not good (I’m being really diplomatic here lol).
The thing is, GoT was the biggest show on Earth, everyone adored it and then, after season 8, it kind of disappeared, now they need to rely on the show fans and book fans alike to have a strong fanbase and I already see that they are making a lot of changes with the storyline, some of them I find nice (Velaryons being black or the Velaryon sigil) but others… They made me scrath my head in disbelief, not gonna lie, like giving the role of a complex and dynamic 40 year old woman in absolute power -Alicent Hightower- to a twenty something year old (and surely extremely talented) actress, its agism at its finest.
Btw, Great video Petra, as always you bring really good points.
As you said, another one of the biggest issues they have to face is that…well… House Targaryen is fully gone so why does it matter? And I think this is good for HoTD because at the end, you end up hating the Targaryens so much that you just wanna see them gone for good, so HoTD may justify why the Targaryens needed to disappear.
Still mad about the agism though, that one still hurts, but nothing against Olivia Cooke,I’m sure she’ll be outstanding.
OberonYronwood,
While I believe Petra addresses your concerns in the video essay, I think HotD needs to set itself apart as a separate show with hooks of its own rather than trying to make up for anything or rely on an existing audience. In treading carefully so I don’t start a GoT fight, I don’t think it can (or should) make up for anything. I think it can, though, establish itself as an individual show so the audience is there for these stories and are invested in these characters. How the stories of Alicent, Rhaenyra, etc. conclude are already known since that’s already published but I think the journey, making these characters human, and stories compelling would be what counts.
I don’t know if it’s agism, I don’t believe we know how old Alicent is when we start the show? Born in 88 AC, I think she is 23 when she and Rhaenyra wear their respective black vs. green clothes. Perhaps they may jump back and forth throughout the timeline, showing a younger Alicent? I think it may be easier (via make-up) to age up a younger actress than to age down an older one.
I’m sorry to reply to another message! It’s not only Targaryens who behave badly (and not all Targaryens do in this story, such as Helaena and Rhaenyra’s kids), other families and non-Targ individuals do in this world do as well. Like some of the
and noble families (namely the Hightowers), who
All these families are in the struggle for power and dominance while I’d argue the responsibility for starting this conflict in the first place is on
Alicent wasn’t exactly a peach 🙂 For instance, when her son Aemond, ambushes a city, her reaction is, “Good!”
The biggest issue is, will there be any story? A huge problem with prequels (as Star Wars illustrated beautifully/horrifically) is that they are constrained by plots that were created as backdrop for a completely different story. So, instead of having the beginning & end of the plot(s) constructed around some story, they will have to try to shoehorn a story into some constrained beginning & end.
Nobody has successfully pulled this off yet. That doesn’t mean that it’s impossible, but good old Bayesian priors are heavily in favor of this being all-plot-and-no-story.
OberonYronwood,
It was the most in demand show of 2020 HBO just released it’s top ten watched shows and GOT was number 3. Just because you didn’t like season 7 or 8 doesn’t mean they need saving. Both those seasons killed it wth viewers. Season 7 is in the high 90s on rotten tomatoes. Both season 7 and 8 won best drama of the year.
Wimsey,
Well, there is a full narrative already published — which I think goes to one of GRRM’s strengths in world-building (and weaknesses because he seems to get sidetracked expanding his world and the stories of secondary/tertiary/etc. characters, which he’s spoken about in a few SSMs). GRRM isn’t the most… well, efficient writer… and I don’t know if there’s that same kind of constraint. Constraint doesn’t seem to be a GRRM issue 😉
He has written out histories and gone off on many, many tangents, which I think contribute to him being sidetracked — but they don’t seem to be simply backdrops but to give real history to the world he’s building, something he seems to enjoy doing and exploring in its own right. He appears to really like bringing in new characters and developing/looking at their stories/motives/feelings/traits, etc. I think there’s a lot of potential for that in HotD. Even as written, Dunk & Egg became its own thing too and that was written from character POVs.
When fully fleshed out, I think the prequels can work on their own. Some speak to specific interests GRRM has had (like that Fleabottom spin-off). I don’t think it’s all plot and no story but I think it’d be up to these writers to put meat on the bones of this story. What we have, currently, are in-universe textbooks told by characters with their own biases and preferences. As Iul said, some events may be a case of “the story is not quite as the maesters wrote it in the history books. It never is,” which could also provide story.
Adrianacandle,
Regarding going off on tangents, I think GRRM does a great job in the novella format writing concise stories. I just finished another Dunk and Egg novella. He tells wonderful stories, and they have a definite beginning, middle and end all within less than 200 pages. Characters are well developed, and I feel immersed in Dunk’s hedge knight world. I know they are working on a Dunk & Egg prequel series as well. If they only want to stick to the novellas, each novella could be done in three episodes (for example). If they find decent writers, they could take the Dunk & Egg premise and write self contained episodes each week where Dunk visits a new town and situation.
Since this thread is on HoTD, I do think it helps that the basics of the story have been mapped out by GRRM. But as you said, the Maester’s view of history may very well be distorted from reality. So the writers still have freedom. I do think having a roadmap will avoid the pitfalls of what occurred in GOT when they had to go it on their own after they ran out of book material. We can debate whether GRRM gave them a roadmap for GOT. But since GRRM is a gardener, roads taken can change as the writing process continues.
That’s true and I recall the stories being more focused and limited in characters. I think Dunk & Egg is a good example of GRRM developing these stories as narratives that one can get invested in on an individual basis with developed characters, motives, and storylines while being part of that ASOIAF world.
I agree regarding HotD. I was able to get into the novellas themselves but I do understand that kind of social studies history text is quite a bit drier. However, yes, because of Maester Yandel’s bias and events being told from what is reported/perceived (which is different from the truth) and different accounts of the same event conflicting within these texts, there is opportunity for that creative freedom and exploring what “really” happened 🙂
Yes, as for GRRM being a gardener and being swept up in the details/secondary/tertiary characters, he said:
This may explain both why GRRM’s world is so full with such extensive histories and characters but also his challenges with completion.
Correction!
The Princess and the Queen and The Rogue Prince were both in-universe documentations written by Archmaester Gyldayn, not Maester Yandel 🙂
However, not to get too far off topic from HotD but something that can work in its benefit: while GRRM has said that he and D&D went over his plans for each main character extensively in a three-day story conference, what that looks like, we don’t really know. ASOIAF is a very involved and complex story and while GRRM knows the more major things that have happened and where he wants to go, he explains being swept up with details/secondary/tertiary characters along the way and adding more in between points — things that are harder to adapt because of medium/time constraints but details that may make a bigger difference later on (“butterfly effect”). Yet I don’t think he’s got all the in-between stuff figured out per his gardener style.
However, with HotD, the opposite may occur — what we have is a dry, matter-of-fact account with a fully laid out narrative, yet with some disagreement between the maesters over what actually happened. A bit like real-world history books. I think this provides the writers creative freedom and opportunity for fleshing out characters/details, exploration of the truth, and further development. Giving characters their own senses of humour, what kind of humour they have, how they react and arrive at decisions, quirks, traits, the stuff that makes individuals… individuals… rather than simply historical figures.
This is something that really confuses me… when S7 came out, it was loved by majority. Episodes all had high ratings on IMDB and I don’t think there was any controversy circling around among the fandom… but since S8 ended, S7 is now hated among firm portion of fandom. There’s some “general consensus” among certain fandom now that GoT “got terrible” with S7 and I don’t get how is it possible then that S7 was so well-recepted when it got released but then reception made 180 turn after the show wrapped up.
As for me, I loved both S7 and S8 and HotD doesn’t need to “redeem” them in any way at all for me because I had very little issues with them. In fact I actually look at S7/S8 as one 13-episodes long season and the pace flows much nicer for me that way (especially considering S7/S8 were originally meant to be one 10-episode season). S7/S8 combined are my 3rd favorite season overall (S6 being my favorite and S4 my second favorite).
Something I do hope HotD will “imprint” among audience is firmly showing the darker side of the dragons and of course Targaryens. In GoT, dragons were “magical”… the way they were shown on screen for majority of the time, there was always this “otherworldly” atmosphere and heroic soundtracks… a contrast to the horror-toned White Walkers. Even when they burned antagonists and ships, there was usually this “triumphant feeling”, this feeling of admiration sparked among audience. It was not until last two seasons when we started truly seeing the darker “mass destruction” side of the dragons when they’re under people’s control. “The Spoils of War” already had a different tone when it came to burning Lannister army than Battle for Meereen for example and of course, The Bells took it to next level. I feel HotD has more chance to imprint this in audience’s minds how dangerous can the use of dragons under powerful person’s hand be and it may be “easier to swallow” because the characters may not be as heroically portrayed as Dany was from get-go.
Many of the characters in HotD (Targaryen or no) do pretty atrocious things in HotD (with the exception of Haleana, her children, and Rhaenyra’s children, and perhaps Nettles, who faithfully and loyally served Rhaenyra).
Yet, I think it’s important to note that it is not only the Targaryens who warred for power and utilized dragons in battles — the Hightowers are the driving force behind the Greens and their goal is power. They too utilized dragons with Alicent’s sons, with Aemond being particularly cruel. I’d also argue the Hightowers are responsible for kicking off this entire conflict because they wanted power for themselves, ignoring the King’s will since it no loner suited their purposes (Otto switches from Team Rhaenyra to Team Aegon because that would consolidate power to his family line). Many non-Targs in this story perform cruel actions to get power or influence those in power. There are also Targs who are innocent and victims.
I don’t think this is so much about showing the darker side of Targaryens specifically but individuals warring for power regardless of name — and hopefully fleshing out these motive and making them into relatable characters with some sympathies.
But I think it’d be a mistake to generalize Targaryens. Of generalizing families, GRRM has said this:
And I’d say this is true of the characters in HotD too: Targaryen, half-Targaryen, lowborn, highborn, and of all families.
Right: but my point is that this is the problem, not an advantage. GRRM created a faux history in which the big events are not outcomes of culminating choices of protagonists. That is the heart of post-18th century storytelling. Now, you can make a faux documentary out of a faux history: but documentaries are not stories.
Criticisms of the final season ran the board. Obviously, a lot of the criticisms from fans were the spoiled-grapes variety: long held conspiracy-theory level beliefs about Littlefinger or Varys or Winterfell or Azor-Ahai or dragons or Dominion Voting or whatever didn’t happen. But the biggest criticisms from the general public centered on the arbitrariness of it. Visually spectacular though the Battle of Winterfell was, the conclusion and motivations were divorced from the story just as the conclusion and motivations of major battles in real wars would be from any story in a historical fiction encompassing those wars. As much like Nagasaki or Dresden the Battle of Kings Landing was, it still was divorced from (or at best loosely linked to) the story as those Nagasaki or Dresden would be from any story in a historical fiction encompassing those events. And when we cut the chaff on the myriad ways that people tried to phrase their dissatisfaction, it all came back to the same things: 8 years of dynamic development and story were just ignored.
(This almost certainly ties in the the other issue being discussed here: GRRM’s turgid writing pace. GRRM himself almost certainly has not connected these important plot points to the story, or has long-ago realized that the ways he intended to do so do not actually work.)
Color me skeptical, but I cannot think that this will be any more successful. At the end of each season & the whole series, there will be major plot culminations just as there was in the original series. However, unlike the first 7 seasons, the prequel events will be like those of the last season: just things that happen rather than major points of clarification or asymptotes in how the protagonists are evolving as individuals. After all: we already know (or can learn if you want to read GRRM’s faux-histories) what those events are!
Adrianacandle,
I know it’s not just the Targaryens who commit terrible stuff. In fact, I’m happy that HotD actually explores Great Houses that weren’t prominent during War of the Five Kings like Hightowers and Velaryons… I think I even mentioned that once. But I’m glad that with House of the Dragons, Targaryens and dragons alike will be part of this “wheel” for majority of the story and I hope no “character worshipping” will form, like it (either unintentionally or intentionally) did among large part of the audience with Dany and I’m sure dragons and “badass speeches” combined with Ramin Djawadi’s soundtrack contributed a lot to that. Being a secret Targaryen (Jon) ended up being a “badass thing” among audience, a big step towards “hype for Targaryen restoration” like Targaryens indeed had some “divine right to rule”… well, until being a secret Targaryen became a big reason for the events leading up to The Bells and the pill became hard to swallow. This is something that I hope HotD won’t fall into even though having a twisted ensemble cast of characters is a risky move in terms of having “casual audience”.
Of course like you said yourself, we only have a “history book” as source material here and we don’t know which characters will turn out to be more sympathetic when actual story takes place on screen. I definitely think Hightowers will be quite dark and power-hungry… when I saw first image of Alicent, she gave me Anne Boleyn vibe from The Tudors TV show and that kind of makes me think the character might be quite “twisted”.
I truly don’t want to get into a s8 fight so I’ll focus on HotD: I have read these faux histories and the mini novels. I’m not sure if you have but they don’t feel like things that just happen or simply a backdrop for another story or faux history created for the sake of faux history. They feel like its own story with characters who do make choices influencing and creating the narrative that bring about a conclusion/conclusions. I would argue that there certainly is development within this particular story as well as a narrative that includes big events which are the outcomes of the protagonists’ culminating choices — Alicent, Otto, Viserys, Rhaenyra.
As for us knowing what these events already are, I don’t think that’s a problem. I think that makes this an adaptation into another medium and may be a good thing because there’s a road map. The story itself is written as a few in-universe texts and I think it would be up to the writers to flesh out the characters and make them compelling characters. Even as it is now, there are arguments and disagreement over which characters were responsible for what in this story.
I can’t speak to the certainty of anything. I do think GRRM’s focus on side-plots, secondary/tertiary characters did get away from him though and blew the story up into something overwhelming with even more plotlines and characters to resolve, more things to tie together into a cohesive narrative. And with his writing and rewriting and writing, it feels to me he may be a bit of a perfectionist. Yet with this, I don’t think there’s that issue. The basic narrative is established with some mystery over what really happened.
Wimsey,
”…Nobody has successfully pulled this off yet. That doesn’t mean that it’s impossible, but good old Bayesian priors are heavily in favor of this being all-plot-and-no-story.”
I tried looking up “Bayesian” in the context of your comment, but I’m not sure I understand what “Bayesian priors” means.
(Google says “Bayesian philosophy is based on the idea that more may be known about a physical situation than is contained in the data from a single experiment.” I’m not sure that applies…) 🤥
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I for one never anticipated a Targaryen restoration (I didn’t care who ends up on the Iron Throne) but I think there’s a good chance there are going to be fans of any character/group if the story does its job and audience members get invested in the story and characters’ struggles. In HotD, it depends on how relatable and sympathetic they make these characters to the audience, which would result in investment. If they can be made relatable, fans will probably root for one over another. Even the Starks brutally conquered the North, forcing (and eliminating) entire lines into submission in the process and warred for thousands of years. That’s kind of the trouble with this system of monarchy — those struggles for power and the devastation these wars bring. The smallfolk who get hurt most of all but whose POV seems the be the most limited in ASOIAF and Fire & Blood both.
And as I said above, I don’t want to get into another s8 fight — I know you liked it and I respect that. There still may be those speeches, epic music, etc. However, unlike GoT, HotD’s entire narrative is known for those interested. And yes, the characters are twisted — but I also think they need to be made human to for the audience to invest in.
For instance, Breaking Bad has quite the ensemble of twisted characters — but characters who one can get really invested in still.
I got those same vibes! 🙂
Tron79,
“Thanks Petra. First, I enjoyed watching your video format instead of reading an article…”
• As a general rule I prefer reading a written essay or printed transcript instead of watching a video. (Part of the reason is that audio is often faint or garbled when listening on headphones or earbuds; also, some narrators of podcasts and reviews seem to “wing it” instead of thinking through and scripting their commentary in advance.)
I’ve got to say, Petra’s videos are an exception. They’re always a pleasure to listen to.
• I appreciated Petra’s reference to the Dr. Who episode “Vincent and the Doctor,” i.e., Petra commented how Dr. Who’s companion, Amy, was distraught to learn that Vincent van Gogh was doomed despite their efforts to convince him of the value of his life. (As 3ER might say, van Gogh’s future was already written, the ink had already dried, or something like that.)
Anyway, I really liked the scene [link below] when Dr. Daemon Targaryen and Nebula … I mean Dr. Who and Amy… take Vincent van Gogh for a visit to a Paris art gallery in the future – where Vincent sees an exhibition of his paintings and listens to the curator describe van Gogh as the greatest artist who ever lived.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubTJI_UphPk
It’s a short scene and enjoyable to watch, and doesn’t require familiarity with Whovian canon.
(I think that’s character actor Bill Nighy as the exhibition curator, and Tony Curran as van Gogh: both familiar faces from lots of other TV shows and movies.)
I was going to say something about this but I forgot — I agree. You’ve got a great voice and speaking style, Petra 🙂
Ten Bears,
Touching scene. I haven’t seen many episodes with Matt Smith as the Dr.
Adrianacandle,
As you mentioned Breaking Bad, there’s this interesting bit from my own first watching of that TV show that I was actually keeping in mind when I was writing my upper comment… I first watched BB in late 2018, so years after the show stopped airing and I was already familiar with various twisted shows like GoT and The Sopranos and such. And when I was in… S2 or S3 I think, I thought to myself: “Oh, that’s very interesting way of portraying characters… they made a character who is on wrong side of the law sympathetic for the audience, but his wife, who is on right side of the law, was made unlikable for the audience. It’s very unique way of storytelling” – I was 100% sure this was all on purpose. And then after I already wrapped up the show, I was very surprised that this actually wasn’t the producers’ intention at all and that they were themselves surprised because they thought the audience would be mainly sympathizing with Skyler from get-go while despising Walt from relatively early on. And I really thought it was all done on purpose in order to “trick” audience into siding with Walt until he becomes so too far gone that it becomes impossible to do so. So I don’t know whether I should congratulate the producers for their unintentional set-up of such character tone or feel disappointed it actually wasn’t planned to unfold like that. I was thinking of exactly that when I was talking about “intentional or untentional character worshipping” above. Up to this day, I’m trying to figure out how BB producers managed to achieve such general reception of characters while planning pretty much the opposite.
🐴 ⚰️ (Beating a dead horse?)
• I’m one of those GoT fans Petra described who has expressed concern that it may be difficult to get emotionally invested in The House of the Dragon because of the way House Targaryen ended up on S8 of GoT: extinguished.
– The aspiring Breaker of the Wheel that crushed innocents instead turned into Flying Hitler, incinerating a city full of a million people for no reason – before getting shanked in the gut by her nephew/boyfriend and expiring without a whimper.
– The secret “heir to the Iron Throne” and presumed Prince that was promised, Aegon Targaryen, never claimed his name or birthright, and disappeared into exile and anonymity. His lineage meant nothing. The secret of his Targ legitimacy; his birth father’s purported kidnap & rape vs. actual true love & elopement; the Tower of Joy R+L = J reveal; and everything else about Jon’s Targ ancestry and destiny … were all insignificant when all was said and done. To borrow Wimsey’s description: “it all came back to the same things: 8 years of dynamic development and story were just ignored.”
– Although I dread baby dramas, the hints about a magic ice + fire Targ baby fizzled out too: The S7 Dragonpit chatter about Dany’s fertility? Jorah telling Jon to keep Longclaw to hand down to his children? Tyrion’s insistence that Dany needed an heir? The hot and heavy boat sex during the S7 closing montage?* And (in the books, at least) the recurring theme of the union of ice and fire? All went nowhere. No Targ scion. No Targ restoration. No renewed Targ dynasty.
*The way they left it in S8, it’s more likely that eight or nine months after sailing off in her direwolf ship, Captain Arya will join the Baratheon + Stark houses when she gives birth at sea. After all, “the seed is strong.” Jon’s seed? Not so much, apparently.
• They may as well make a prequel about the Reynes of Castamere, or House Hollard (RIP Ser Dontos.) They’re all gone. Who cares about them or their ancestors? They too were wiped out.
Personally, I’d rather see a prequel about the backstory and mysterious family history of a survivor of S8.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeK8ixPBvzY
at 2:57: “I’m a survivor.”
• One other thing: If, as I understand it, the “Dance of the Dragons” is
about a civil war between a Targ Queen and a Targ Princess, each resorting to ever-more gruesome ways of torturing and murdering each other’s families and followers, I’m not so sure I have an appetite for that kind of story. I already had my fill of families killing each other on GoT. More of the same would be overkill. (No pun intended.)
I’m not saying HotD won’t be excellent TV. Just as with horror and suspense movies, and films about serial killers and heinous murders, a show with characters pursuing revenge and retaliation
and killing each other may not be my preference. There are plenty of lighthearted shows on my Too-Watch List, like “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel” and other comedies I’ve heard that are really good. Plus, I still haven’t watched “Star Trek: Picard” or “Stranger Things.” I’ve yet to see a single episode of “Breaking Bad” or “The Wire,” each of which has been praised as a great TV series that “stuck the landing”
Besides, as another commenter noted, there are so many shows on so many platforms vying for audiences’ attention.
And yet… I’ll surely be tuning in to watch S1e1 of HotD. I just hope that the series premiere is engrossing enough to entice short attention span, cranky viewers like me. 😠
Well, I think both you and I can anticipate the response from pro-s8ers about this 🙂
But here’s my issue with Jon’s lineage. I don’t think Jon’s true parentage will actually play a political role in the books. I don’t see how it can. But I think it will play out in different ways, such as in the mystical realm: the show heavily toned down the magical aspects. But in-universe to most people, Jon’s parentage would be a ridiculously hard sell. There’s no proof. Jon is widely accepted as Ned Stark’s bastard son. He has Ned’s look. The story Ned came up with is far more believable. Bastards are heavily stigmatized, viewed to be wanton, unworthy of trust, and wanting to usurp trueborn claims. If anybody claimed Jon was this secret prince that nobody ever knew existed, it would very well look like a bastard’s trick. Plus, Jon has a bad reputation in-universe: is a bastard son of an alleged traitor and he let in the wildlings. Is also known as an oathbreaker to the Watch.
I think this speaks to Varys’s “Power resides where men believe it resides,” and in the books, Varys is raising…. Young Griff. He’s claiming to be a prince who was known to exist (Rhaegar’s eldest son), he has the right look, he’s arriving with a fresh slate, he was raised to be Varys’s ideal king.
Instead, I think this is Young Griff’s storyline from the books. He’s way more believable as Rhegar’s elder son, has the right look, is the right age, can rally Dorne as Elia’s son, and is a fresh slate.
In the books, I do think Jon is meant to disappear into anonymity and exile. There are a few passages that hint at it. I don’t think his parentage was ever supposed to be this victorious political thing but rather, I think it’s meant to make an impact in the mystical realm in regard to the Others.
But with GRRM’s books, we don’t know where all that is leading to. But with HotD, as Petra mentioned, people have the ability to compartmentalize. HotD is set far enough before the events of GoT/ASOIAF and even then, HotD itself has a bleak ending.
I understand this criticism myself — which is why I’m hoping for the writers to flesh out everything and make it more human, kind of vis a vis Breaking Bad in a way. However, this is also a reason why I find a Nymeria prequel more interesting :/
And speaking of Breaking Bad, I must reply to Erik about that!
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
However, I think they were surprised at the backlash over Skylar. I started to really like her once she started working with Walt and she was really considering the practicalities of their situation, how to hide this from Hank, the DEA, everything. She made sense as an accountant who’d know what to look for and I really appreciated the writers allowed Skylar’s accounting skills to play such a critical role.
However, my favourite was always Jesse 🙂
But I think, for the most part, audience sympathies are unpredictable and uncontrollable. If they mine the humanity behind each character, something to draw sympathy from viewers, one can understand horrible deeds like in Walter White’s case while Skylar can look like the irritating nagging wife. But whatever they did for Walter White, I hope they do for Rhaenyra, Alicent, and the rest.
Not-Really Musical Interlude
“The Starry Night,” arguably Vincent van Gogh’s most famous painting, is shown at 1:13 of the Dr. Who video clip [link embedded in my 2:41 pm comment above].
That painting, and van Gogh’s struggles, were the subject of this song (audio and live versions follow):
• “Vincent (Starry Starry Night)” 1972 – Don McLean [audio; 3:58 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxHnRfhDmrk
• Don McLean “Vincent (Starry Starry Night)” live 1972 [3:57 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wrNFDxCRzU
Though it’s not on my Perpetual Loop of songs I like to listen to, I thought I’d mention it before leaving the subject of Vincent Van Gogh.
I have read them, or parts of them: they were all plot and no story. Sure, characters made choices that led to things: but in the way that Churchill chose to bomb Dresden or Truman chose to bomb Nagasaki. But that’s not enough for a story: a story requires that there be some aspect of self-discovery/self-realization/self-actualization to such decisions, and that this moment be the culmination of parallel experiences earlier on. The TV series (seasons 1-7) did this superbly: the protagonists were stuck in “damned if you do / damned if you don’t” situations where the options were bad choices, worse choices and even worse choices. In all cases, to gain or hold on to one thing, they had to sacrifice something else.
Now, ideally this would be a different story, and there would be some other commonality in the big life choices. (There are innumerable possibilities from which to choose.) However: instead of devising the events and outcomes for some set of story about X, they have a bunch of events and outcomes and now have to hope to find some X that fits into those events/outcomes.
Adrianacandle,
”Well, I think both you and I can anticipate the response from pro-s8ers about this 🙂”
Arggghhh! I screwed up the spoiler coding on that long comment. I intended to cover that reference to what I felt was
precisely to avoid reigniting the fan war; and to cover the description of
though it’s not really a “spoiler” at this point.
Tron79,
6:26 pm follow-up reply to you (re: van Gogh) is stuck in Moderation Purgatory, probably because I linked two videos.
Adrianacandle,
”But with GRRM’s books, we don’t know where all that is leading to.”
Neither does he, apparently. 😬
Or, as we do with historical dramas, they can take the dry in-universe texts and flesh them out with all of these things that you’ve described. Make these characters human, give them those conflicts that wouldn’t be documented in historical texts. Usually, those kinds of emotions/internal conflicts/etc. don’t make it into the history books. Plus, these accounts were written by two maesters based on perception of outside observations rather than being in these characters’ minds and seeing them up/close/& personal.
I don’t think that’d be shoehorning though. I think that’d be breathing life into what is otherwise a historical account. Dramas flesh out the Tudors, Marie Antoinette, the Tzars, etc. I think this could be something similar.
Ten Bears,
In fairness to you, spoiler code or no, people would still click 😉 So I think all we can do is brace ourselves! But I think we can anticipate what will be said.
I honestly think he does know where he’s going! But so much is in the way. Per the above quote, he’s been swept away by side plots, secondary/tertiary characters, adding too many characters and plots, that it makes it that much more difficult to tie everything together so — and I know I’m a broken record at this point — I think he’s totally stuck.
Adrianacandle,
(Off-topic comment)
Regarding Skyler, my opinion on her was that I obviously understood why she acted the way she did but I can say I didn’t really “like” her… whenever she was on screen, the character was causing me some sort of negative emotions and thus I really couldn’t sympathize with her. It was impossible for me to do so with the vibe this character was giving me. As for Walt, I can say I was kind of “on his side” for 4 seasons but in 5th (final) season, I realized how far gone he was and how he’s firmly in antagonist zone… so in S5, Walt became a character I really enjoyed watching his story unfold, but I was not on his side anymore then and I knew that sooner or later, things NEED to backfire on him if there’s any “justice”.
(End of off-topic)
D’oh, that really is my bad: that really is pretty obscure term. But to extend on what you looked up, what we need to look at here are prior attempts at prequels. There have been a handful, and usually in SciFi or Fantasy. The Star Wars prequel trilogy is the best known example. I’ve never seen/read one that did a good job of telling a story
There is another aspect of priors that’s not in the Google definition, which is based on mathematical or logical models. For example, a lot of the research on COVID that you’ve seen summarized (usually pretty poorly) in the media includes mathematical priors based on “birth rates” of new strains, “death rates” of strains going locally extinct and “sampling rates” of expressed illnesses.
Here, we’ve got something very different: literary theory. (The same theory applies to plays, TV series, movies, etc.) Modern literary theory, which dates back to Austin, Tolstoy, Hugo, etc., derives stories from character evolution, and thus creates plots that put protagonists into a series of situations that are analogous in that the put the protagonist(s) in situations where they have to go one way or another in some general sense. GRRM has talked about this: he’s particularly fond of the Faulkneresque theory in which protagonists who want to be Person Who Does A and B, and then have to do A at the expense of B or vice-versa. (For example, Daenerys is the magnanimous liberator who will stand up to her enemies: but she couldn’t be both in the end.)
And here’s the problem: literary theory says make the story first and then the plot; so, when you do the opposite, then it’s like doing COVID research using inappropriate transmission / mutation models.
(Incidentally, whenever you use odds to bet on which team will win a game, you basically are using a ratio of the prior probability of either team winning. To an extent, my first example is like this because prequels have a losing record compared to books & TV shows that are stand-alones or even sequels.)
Would love to write a response for this if it wasn’t almost 1 am here. And as you know, my answers are always long and detailed so it takes significant time for me to write them… I guess tomorrow.
Erik, with all due respect, because this argument has been done again and again and again with identical points being traded back and forth, I don’t think anyone is going to change anyone else’s mind on these topics. I’ve read your thoughts on this and I appreciate them! But lines in the sand have been drawn, nobody is budging.
That said, it’s totally up to you of course.
Wimsey,
There was nothing arbitrary about the final season. Everything that happened within the season, from the Night King’s defeat to Danerys burning down King’s Landing, to Jon stabbing Danerys in the heart, was properly set up and executed perfectly.
Ten Bears,
I don’t see why House Targaryen’s fate should stop you from connecting with some of the characters. Characters are not their House, after all.
Adrianacandle,
Some of us don’t mind continuing to discuss season 8. If it bothers you so much, you can just skip past our comments. It’s no big deal.
I’m not referring to general discussion but to the same season 8 arguments had over and over, trading the same points back and forth, which can take over threads. I’m only expressing how I feel about these repeated debates that don’t really go anywhere new — occurring even in threads about the prequels. You can disregard my comments on this if you like and I wouldn’t at all be offended.
I could be wrong but they don’t seem to bring much enjoyment but more frustration. That said, it’s not up to me of course what people want to discuss which is why I said it’s totally up to Erik.
I suppose the same goes for the KotV stuff as well, in addition to some other topics (like the rape debates), which others have expressed exhaustion over. I try to drop the stick on those as well.
Sometimes, I do feel compelled to join in if I feel there’s an inaccuracy, but I try to avoid doing so because of my own frustration over these same debates. That’s a me thing though.
Nonetheless, I feel I can express frustration with these discussions as others have expressed frustrations with certain things. Another commenter expressed frustration with my off-topic chitchat that I’ve since made a serious effort to cut back on in consideration. You express objection and frustration yourself with people’s criticisms of season 8. You told Wimsey, “There was nothing arbitrary about the final season.” Well, people (including myself) can feel differently and it’s frustrating to be told we’re wrong or have an opinion pushed as fact. Yes, I’m very very glad you enjoyed season 8! But not everyone does and sometimes, it feels like there is a hair trigger response anytime somebody suggests they didn’t like season 8 or something about season 8.
And then it goes into the same repeat cycle.
“Could the divisive ending of Game of Thrones benefit House of the Dragon?”
That’s a good question, and has spurred some lively debate here.
If I may interject a bit of premature whining, from the set photos so far I’ve found the costumes for Alicent and Rhaenyra somewhat underwhelming.
Here’s Alicent (Olivia Cooke in costume):
https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/f5c/c38/e319d69dfd88b77e56ffaf09c99dc61bc8-house-of-dragons-2.rsquare.w700.jpg
And here’s Rhaenyra (Emma D’Arcy in costume), similar to the image at the top of Petra’s article:
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/emma-d-arcy-matt-smith-1620258602.jpg
To me, they both look like they’re dressed in drab housecoats. Queen Alicent doesn’t look “comely.” (It’s hard to tell that’s even Olivia Cooke.)
The Targ Princess doesn’t look very regal.
Don’t get me wrong! I’m not complaining that they’re not dressed in skintight catsuits and stilettos like Marvel supervixens.
Are my sensibilities warped? Am I the only one who wasn’t bowled over by the long-awaited photos of the two actors in costume?
Ten Bears,
I think I agree with you to an extent on Rhaenyra’s dress, which looks a little (to use a Project Runway term) “home sewn”. It feels too… too much like it’s been made from materials I could pick up at Fabricland or Michael’s. The richness isn’t there, nor is the medieval feel. It looks like it wants to be medieval ala Halloween fabric but isn’t authentic.
But maybe how it moves in motion will totally transform it?
I actually like Alicent’s styling though. Feels very Anne Boleyn and I like the colouring for her as well as the headwear.
It’s because their legacy is empty. I’ll let Tywin explain. (From S2e7; at 1:14 – 1:32):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OTOiMQchKw
Tywin: “Do you know what ‘legacy’ means? It’s what you pass down to your children. And your children’s children. It’s what remains of you when you’re gone.”
For me, knowing that the Targaryens will have no legacy – nothing will remain of them – makes it difficult to care about their feuding ancestors.
Not to mention that I already reached my DSP (Dragon Saturation Point) sometime around mid-S7 of GoT. Dragons, and people riding them, have lost their novelty.
Adrianacandle,
⚠️ Off-Topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8X-JAJ7CBw
Thanks for this great video essay, Petra! (And I raise Ten Bears’ statement about how you should narrate audiobooks: you should seek employment as professional voice talent in any number of fields.)
To everyone who thinks that “knowing how it ends,” takes all of the fun out of it, I suggest you look at some actual history. Most Americans have some idea of what our Founding Fathers did, but few appreciate, say, just how nastily Jefferson and Hamilton hated each other*, or that the clause of the U.S. Constitution which requires the President (alone of all federal elected officials) to be a native-born citizen was written, in part, to keep Hamilton (who had been born on a Caribbean island) out of the top job.
The devil is always in the details, and just because we know how it all ends does not necessarily remove any of the enjoyment from the tale. At least to this reader/viewer.
——
*This caused their boss, President Washington, no small amount of heartburn. At one point, Secretary of State Jefferson thought he’d finally obtained information sufficient to get Hamilton fired from his job as Secretary of the Treasury: the husband of Hamilton’s mistress was extorting money from Hamilton to keep the affair secret. Washington, upon learning this, asked Hamilton if this personal issue had affected his performance in office, and Hamilton replied he had neither made nor changed any decisions based upon his need to keep paying blackmail money. Washington believed Hamilton, and dropped the matter entirely, much to Jefferson’s exasperation. (Jefferson’s own sexual relationship with his slave, Sally Hemings, was exposed by Hamilton, and subsequently denied by Jefferson and his white descendents for 200 years — until DNA evidence conclusively showed Jeffersonian genes in Hemings’ descendents.)
This is a great post. For me at least we need to just HOTD on it’s own merits and not back to GOT. The reality is it will not have the same success, simply because GOT was the biggest show of all time. We can be optimistic because HBO know they need to get this right but I am expecting something like Better Call Saul i.e. plenty of nostalgia and head nods to the original show but something good that can stand on it’s own two feet.
Ten Bears,
Thanks, TB! 🙂
When I love something, I love to respond in a way to express my appreciation, even more if there’s certain negativity surrounding it. And when I do, I love to answer in detail so there’s explicitly stated why. I love doing so and I know from my own experience from that LOST group that it can very much have an effect… not necessarily on person I’m responding to, but definitely on site/group itself. And I’m sure I WILL respond to the upper comment as soon as I get time and energy to do so. As long as I can counter something with something positive, I’ll keep doing it… over and over and over again as long as there are these kind of discussions sparking. If discussions die out, then I imagine I’ll stop doing it.
Ten Bears,
“For me, knowing that the Targaryens will have no legacy – nothing will remain of them – makes it difficult to care about their feuding ancestors.”
I like to think that perhaps in the future when he had mourned Dany, Jon would find a Wilding lady to his liking though whether he would ever reveal his Targaryen ancestry is anyone’s guess. My fanfic is going to stay in my head – I’m not writing it down.
Dame of Mercia,
I think it’s more that the Targaryen name has died. There is still Targaryen blood floating around this world (especially in ASOIAF where you have Blackfyres, Baratheons, Velaryons, etc. — the Targaryens didn’t just marry other Targaryens but married into different branches like the Daynes, Arryns, and Blackwoods, etc. Dany has bits of all these bloodlines in her own blood). For me, I don’t think Jon would want a third go around after Ygritte and Dany (or at least not for a long, long, long time), which would haunt and grieve him, but I think being with the wildlings and Tormund is the best thing for him. They’d just let him be — not force him into positions, into battles, let him rest, give him company when he wants, leave him alone when he wants. I think Tormund is the ideal buddy for him at this point 🙂 But of course, this looks different to everyone and I guess everyone can decide it for themselves.
That aside, while there may not be as significant a ration of Targaryen blood, there is still Targaryen blood floating around. The name itself probably would die though if Dany dies in the books and Jon is exiled (although, I don’t think Jon will hold the Targaryen name in the books either — R+L=J would be a difficult thing to swallow for Westerosi). Though… perhaps there would be more people popping up, claiming they are Targaryen ala Young Griff. And there are still probably Blackfyres around in ASOIAF too!
The blood will always still be around but the name? That may die.
On the topic of Targaryen blood and dragonseeds, I think this may be of interest. Before King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne ended the First Night custom, it was practiced on Dragonstone to create bastards known as “dragonseeds”:
From The Princess and the Queen:
Dragonseeds were believed to have a greater chance of taming a dragon:
However, not all dragonseeds could tame a dragon and not all dragonriders (such as Nettles) are known to be a dragonseed at all. Nettles’ parentage is uncertain.
Anyway, there you go about Targ blood floating around in Westeros 🙂
There are major parallels between the trajectories of GoT and the Battlestar Galactica reboot. Both of them were hugely successful and influential shows, they emphasised intelligent realism in their earlier seasons (one of the reasons for their original acclaim), they eventually went off the rails because of issues with their showrunners, and they had very divisive and controversial finales.
One of the main lessons from this: Given the widespread disillusionment with GoT, HOTD will need to hit it out of the park fairly early on, otherwise it’ll have the same fate as BSG’s cancelled-after-the-first-season prequel Caprica.
I have to politely disagree with the comments about nobody having successfully pulled off a high-quality prequel; Rogue One and Black Sails were prequels that turned out to be superb. Apparently The Mandalorian and Better Call Saul are very good too, although I haven’t seen them yet. But I do agree that prequels are tricky to pull off and can go badly wrong if they’re not in the hands of the right showrunners and writers. In the *right* hands, of course, they can turn out to be suprisingly good and sometimes even extraordinary.
As for the supposed downsides of already knowing a prequel’s overall story and the ending, the key here is a mixture of “filling in the blanks” and/or including things that challenge existing preconceptions and perhaps even completely change your perspective on those events and *future events that you already knew about*. Again, tricky to do, but fantastic when done right.
Well said, TB. I agree with you. The legacy of the Targaryens is already known, and it’s not good. It doesn’t matter what they do. They’re beholden to the “Targaryen Madness” label no matter what happens. It’s just a matter of time. Whoopdie freakin do.
Let me fix this for you.
Young Dragon:
Wimsey,
IMO, there was nothing arbitrary about the final season. IMO, everything that happened within the season, from the Night King’s defeat to Danerys burning down King’s Landing, to Jon stabbing Danerys in the heart, was properly set up and executed perfectly.
This is precisely why talking about the final season with certain people is a nightmare.
Adrianacandle,
Yes, I disagreed with Wimsey’s statement, but that’s all it was. A disagreement. I wasn’t frustrated in the slightest. I, for one, rather enjoy discussing season 8. I feel I’m in a strong position and have absolutely no problem sharing my opinion.
I believe you’re referring to the poster who claimed that you and TB were turning the comment section into your own personal Facebook page. Well, I’m not that poster. To be clear, I don’t really care for your and TB’s off topic chit chat, or for TB’s musical interludes, but they don’t effect me in the slightest, so I just skip past those comments, the same advice I’m giving you. I won’t suggest you you can’t comment about something. That’s not up to me.
Young Dragon,
See, this is the problem. You’re not framing your opinion as an opinion. You’re framing it is a fact.
You don’t seem to have any sense of self-awareness about this.
Young Dragon,
I didn’t say you were that commenter. Regardless, I have taken efforts to cut back on off topic talk since the commenter made their feelings aware.
By the same turn, you can skip over my comments when I express frustration with these same debates repeating identical points if you don’t care to read those comments or disagree. I don’t mind. I may find some repeated discussions cringey but I can only control what I do. I can express my feeling on something like this but regardless, others may decide differently and I won’t try to stop them. People are free to choose what they do, just as they are free to express an opinion — whatever that is — and ideally, it should be civil.
Yes. You see it on this very thread. There’s been things said on both sides, but some of the pro season 8 fans on this site are lunatics and really have a hard time handling a different opinion.
For example, we have Erik saying that he feels the need to rub in how much he loved the ending whenever he hears a differing opinion. There are few things more childish than that.
Then you have young dragon, who cannot simply say his opinion of season 8 is very high. He has to tell everyone else who feels differently that they are factually incorrect. Not only that, but he never comments here UNLESS someone says something negative about season 8. It’s like he receives text alerts anytime something negative is said about season 8 in the entire galaxy.
It’s insufferable and feels like overcompensation. It really makes any discussion about season 8 impossible.
That is not what I did. I expressed concern wherein this would lead into another debate trading the same points back and forth, expressing my view on that but left it up to Erik. I finished with, “That said, it’s totally up to you of course,” and didn’t continue to push when Erik made his response to me.
Mr Derp,
It does feel a bit like a hair trigger response and navigating word landmines where I try to avoid triggering arguments which have repeated themselves for years at this point. Of course, people will do what they do but I’m hopeful new material will help freshen up discussion and debate.
There are plenty of debates I like on this site — like fancasting, stuff about the world books, the ASOIAF books themselves, the prequels, weird book theories, etc. 🙂
I think these are some really nice points, Jai 🙂 I have seen Better Call Saul and while it has a different feel from Breaking Bad, I really like it.
I wouldn’t call GOT’s finale “divisive”. I daresay there’s a widespread consenus that it was unadulterated crap.
Adrianacandle,
I agree that it’s possible to have a good prequel, but there are so many more bad examples than good ones that it always makes me shudder a bit when I hear about a prequel coming out.
I also think it’s possible to keep an audience engaged even when the outcome is already known. It can be compelling to watch characters try to stop the inevitable from happening. For example, we all knew the outcome of Robert’s Rebellion, but it was still compelling to see the details unfold.
Another example, I love Ken Burns documentaries. I already know what’s going to unfold, but hearing HOW it all unfolded can be compelling tv.
Mr Derp,
Yeah, all good points! Plus, it does kind of feel like HBO is throwing everything at the wall, hoping something sticks, but I have hope this can be a compelling story — and maybe that’s due to my own desperation for something new in this world 🙂
Yes! I’m actually rewatching The Tudors at the moment and while I know it took a lot of, erm, liberties with history, it’s still entertaining despite knowing what happens to all of these people. I was watching a documentary on Mary I and Elizabeth I. I know how each of their lives end and how their reigns go but the documentary is still so engaging..
Some liked it and some didn’t. Considering the statements on this very thread, I’d say “divisive” is pretty accurate.
Adrianacandle,
As long as the story is engaging and stands on it’s own then I think any prequel can work. The problem is that too many prequels feel like box-checking to me rather than an organic story with it’s own flow. It’s merely “content” rather than a story.
I want these prequels to stand on their own and not feel like “content”.
Endings are obviously important, but sometimes the journey can be more satisfying than the ending, which was the case for me when it came to GoT. Sometimes one can overthink the ending and spend too much time trying to subvert expectations rather than make a coherent, sensible ending.
I’m just hoping for stories that stand on their own and are also not influenced by the perpetually offended in the Twitterverse. That would make for one bland, boring story.
Those are my feelings exactly and I’d say these prequels standing on their own would be crucial to their success because while they take place in the same world, they are essentially different shows. New characters, plotlines, backstories, narratives.
However, I get what you’re saying about too many prequels/spin-offs feeling like “box checking” rather than an organic narrative all of its own apart from predecessor shows.
I myself know several people who loved GoT finale, including my father, my former coworker Nina, my online friends Ryan, Irene, Ege and Stacey (two of them being BIG Dany fans btw), several members from LOST FANS UNITE group, several people here on WotW, from what I know critics’ opinion was certainly divisive otherwise it would have 0 % on RT, and I daresay that even a lot of people who weren’t satisfied with the finale or S8 don’t outright consider it “unadulterated crap”. Because newsflash, you can not be satisfied with episode but still not hate it with passion or you can like an episode, but not be crazy about it or you can be neutral about an episode, not really liking it but not really disliking it. But considering I don’t even remember you commenting here on WotW, I think your comment is just meant to spew negativity.
Mr Derp,
Here you are moralising but at same time calling me a lunatic because I love to express my appreciation for TV shows I love? Wow, that’s certainly very constructive…
Adrianacandle,
The recent “Cruella” film is a perfect example of a needless prequel.
Some characters simply don’t need an origin story.
She’s mean, hates animals, and wants to kill them for fur. That’s her entire schtick. Disney completely took all of that out of the prequel to make her more palatable.
Another one of Cruella’s trademarks was to have a cigarette holder (Quellazaire), which Disney removed because they literally removed all smoking from their films (This is no joke, look it up).
What you end up with is a neutered character that doesn’t remotely resemble the character people have become familiar with. It’s “content”.
Don’t give me your bullshit about being “constructive”. You’re the guy who came here and told everyone they weren’t worthy enough of being a GoT fan, so please take several seats.
You also admitted you like to rub it in people’s faces when they don’t like something that you like. Hardly “constructive”.
Your entire schtick is to come here and claim you’re being Mr. Positive when you’re spewing more negativity than anyone. You’re such a fraud.
Mr Derp,
Just proving my point… hypocrisy at its highest
Aw, jeeze. RIP opera-length cigarette holder 🙁
But yeah, I agree with many of your concerns. Instances of the pendulum swinging too much the other way into over-sanitization. And sometimes, yes, said prequels are just not… needed… but are clear cash grabs.
I guess I would be interested in The Life & Times of Cruella De vil — just like The Life & Times of the Wicked Witch of the West was made into a novel (it was done well but it was very much an adult novel that was more than a little bleak). But it’d have to be done right, well, and for its own purposes.
You have no point and I don’t think you even know what hypocrisy means considering nothing I said is hypocritical. You. however, the hypocrisy is astounding.
You loved the ending to GoT and have no tolerance for any other opinion. We get it. You love to frequently advertise how “positive” you are despite the fact that you’ve called everyone here not worthy of being a GoT fan and you like to rub it in every chance you get when you disagree with someone. This is negativity, not positivity, and these are the actions of a child.
If you want to actually address any of this, then, please, by all means. So far, all you’ve done is deflect.
Dame of Mercia,
I like to think that perhaps in the future when he had mourned Dany, Jon would find a Wilding lady to his liking though whether he would ever reveal his Targaryen ancestry is anyone’s guess. My fanfic is going to stay in my head – I’m not writing it down.”
• Yeah, I liked to think Jon would find a nice Wildling lady*, or a fiery redhead. 👩🏻🦰 That’s why I thought Meg Parkinson was cast (as Alys Karstark I think). But she had maybe one line (“Now and always!”) and apparently died with Theon’s crew defending Bran. As I recall, she had a death scene but it wound up on the cutting room floor.
* What was it that Ygritte told Jon when she first met him and tried to induce him to blow off the NW and live with the Free Folk?
• My fanfic – before S8 – assumed Dany would die a heroic death after or during childbirth, leaving Jon to raise a daughter as a single dad. And I did write it down. Too bad S8 obliterated my fanfic scenario.
Ten Bears,
Well, I feel very differently. I know absolutely nothing about the events surrounding the civil war or the characters involved, so I’ll have to speak hypothetically. Let’s say Rhaenyra Targaryen is a sympathetic character that you can’t help but fall in love with. Knowing the fate of House Targaryen won’t stop me from connecting with that particular character, because she’s more than her House. I would want her to succeed and live a happy life, and I’ll be gutted if she didn’t make it through the series, because a promising life has been cut short. The people involved in the Dance are long dead by the time the events in GOT take place, so what happened in GOT will not effect how I view House of the Dragon.
Young Dragon,
”To be clear, I don’t really care for… TB’s musical interludes, but they don’t effect me in the slightest, so I just skip past those comments, the same advice I’m giving you.”
Oh good! I’ll dedicate the next Musical Interlude to you, Young Dragon!
P.S. I’ve been pretty vigilant in trying to cover off topic stuff and musical interludes with spoiler coding and a ⚠️ warning icon. It’s easy enough to scroll through and skip over greyscale-covered text, and that way you don’t have to read it inadvertently.
Mr Derp,
That’s funny. You didn’t have a problem with Oberyn Yronwood stating seasons 7 or 8 weren’t good and you didn’t have a problem with Wimsey stating that season 8 was filled with random events. I’m guessing you don’t mind people stating opinions as if they’re facts so long as their opinions line up with your own.
That being said, I didn’t call them out either, just like no one called me out, before you. That’s because the rest of us know that on this site, when people comment about something, that they are merely giving their opinion goes without saying.
Speaking of going without saying, throughout my commenting history here I’ve spoken with all three of you many times and read numerous comments from Oberon, Wimsey, and you. Oberon and Wimsey are very easy to talk to and are open to other opinions despite having strong opinions of their own. You, however, are a completely different story.
No. See below. You specifically went out of your way to tell Wimsey he’s wrong in the most rigid of ways.
This is not a comment that describes an opinion. This is you trying to pass opinion as fact in a particularly insufferable way.
Mr Derp,
Really, clean up before your own doorstep first. You’re doing exactly what you’re accusing me of and yet pretend you’re somewhat “better” than me. You called me a fanatic, a child, a lunatic, possibly something else…you’re obviously annoyed or maybe feel even threatened that some of us are able to enjoy entirety of GoT and you can’t, otherwise you wouldn’t keep bringing me and Young Dragon and probably someone else in your comment, even when I’m not interacting with you or speaking about you at all and you even admitted recently that you want me banned here… and don’t think I didn’t notice the “GTFO!” which you edited shortly after you made your comment. But I guess you have every right to harass me to no ends while I must keep my mouth shut, right? Please, get off your high horse. If I’m such a terrible person that you’re trying to portray me, then you’re not trying to be any better. If you think you’ll drive me off this site with all this, I’m sad to inform you that you won’t! In fact, I’ll probably feel even more pleasure now expressing what I like about S8 and GoT.
Young Dragon,
This
Possibly something else?
I’ve made it pretty damn clear what my issues are with you, yet you constantly either ignore, deflect, or pretend that it’s something else. You WANT this to be about something that it’s not. You WANT this to be about season 8 “haters” trying to rain on your parade because you like it, but this has nothing to do with that, as I’ve said many times over. You don’t seem to get it.
Probably someone else?
This is a site to discuss GoT and HoTD. Every comment is fair game. Especially, ones where you put others down all under this fake guise of “positivity” and then claim the opposite. You have not once addressed anything I’ve actually said to you. You just deflect.
There is no “harassing” going on here. I’m simply calling out your bullshit. You have a habit of being able to dish it out but not able to take it. And no one ever said you have to keep your mouth shut. You’re making this all up.
Strange. I’m not trying to drive you off this site. You’ve actually done that to yourself NUMEROUS times. You’ve gone out of your way to post some overly dramatic “I’m leaving this site forever” crap and then proceed to come back 2 days later saying the same crap.
I also don’t care that you liked season 8, no matter how much you seem to want me to. Again, you’re a hypocrite, and I’m going to continue to call you out on it until you stop.
Ten Bears,
Not necessary, but I thank you. And I’m sorry for calling you out.
I always have spoiler coding off in order to catch book discussions, so I didn’t know that. But yes, I am able to scroll past your off topic posts. I didn’t mean to imply you were doing anything wrong.
Young Dragon,
Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment.
(I’m still going to dedicate a Musical Interlude to Young Dragon.) 😎
Mr Derp,
The Cruella movie
On on unrelated note, you might be pleased to learn that I couldn’t pull the trigger on Alanis Morissette concert tickets. $399 -$999 per ticket ($800 – $2,000 a pair) for seats in the first ten rows ?
Nope. No Thank U, Alanis.
Ten Bears,
I love Emma Stone too. She’s terrific. Unfortunately, Disney spares no one from the wrath of it’s evil empire.
Damn, $400-$1,000 just for an Alanis Morissette ticket? Is she owned by Disney too?
Mr Derp,
Whatever… keep harassing me as much as you want but it won’t do any difference except that you’ll probably only make your own experience even more bitter here. I don’t feel a thing when hearing anything from you and I’m certainly NOT going anywhere!
Mr Derp,
You clearly lack the self awareness to realize this, but the only one who’s being difficult right now is you. Everyone else was having a pleasant discussion. There were disagreements, to be sure, but that’s all they were. Disagreements. Then you came in and cranked the hostility up to eleven. You have only yourself to blame.
You misunderstand. I’m saying I didn’t call Wimsey out for not putting “imo” in front of their comment. That’s because I knew full well that they were only giving their opinion, just like everyone knew I was only giving mine. Everyone except you, apparently. You still haven’t explained why you singled me out. Those two other posters also didn’t clarify they were only giving their opinion, yet you didn’t say anything to them.
Adrianacandle,
😔 Jon will never be sliding in anonymity! He’ll get a FB page like a proper brooding future boomer and he’s going to be LC of the Nightswatch, AdrianaCandle!
You better watch yourself. Talking about Jon like that! ☺️
In all seriousness I expect like you that politically he won’t be motivated to rule absolutely nothing. It’s just that we haven’t yet seen ambition from him, only duty. Of course that may change but I have a feeling in his mind, (or Martin’s) he will still be a Ned so to speak. Walking in KL and not taking the IT for himself when he steps in the throne room and opportunity is there, simply because that’s not who he is. 🤷♀️
Loved the parallel you’ve made with the Six of Crows duology, Petra. I did not read the books in that universe but I knew that the TV series plot that involves the thieves crew is sort of a prequel from friends who did read them and thus I got the point.
If season 8 critics are willing to give this new series from Asoiaf universe a chance I’d say it’s a win. As you say, Marie Antoinette still has movies and stories written about her, and some are told in a fascinating manner.
Personally I still watch every Titanic movies, even though historically I know how it ends. I also rooted for Spartacus’ rebellion against the might of Rome and hoped for a miracle survival story in that particular Starz’ series. 😈
In the end it might be that show Tyrion was Right and it really is about the best story!
Hi TormundsWoman! 🙂
I think Jon has some differences from Ned but during book 5, when he’s gotten a taste of leadership, he finds it miserable, isolating, and lonely. Before, he did used to yearn to lead (his hero is a 14-year old Targaryen conquerer 😉 ). However, like most of the characters in the series, they find that the dream is very different from the reality.
I also don’t expect Jon will be a claimant for the throne simply because R+L=J will be such a difficult thing to believe for the average, non-magical Westerosi in-universe (but I think his parentage will serve a different purpose). He can’t really undergo a DNA test, he has Ned Stark’s look through and through, he’s widely accepted as Ned’s bastard son, bastards are stigmatized as wanton, untrustworthy individuals seeking to usurp a trueborn’s claim, and Jon is already viewed negatively in-universe. If people were to hear Jon is being pushed as the secret child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark who was never known to exist, I imagine it’d be viewed as a bastard’s trick.
Young Griff though — with his Targaryen looks, upbringing by Varys to be king, and arriving in Westeros as a fresh slate — would be more believable with his claim to be the known son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell.
I think that speaks to Varys’s line: “Power resides where men believe it resides.” It doesn’t matter so much about the truth but what people perceive to be the truth.
There’s this passage in Jon’s chapter from AGOT which I personally think may hint at his anonymous/exiled fate:
and from ACOK:
I’m reacting to the back and forth. I was going to ignore it, but I did my best to read through some of it anyway. Perhaps a trial by combat is in order to let the gods decide. All joking aside, whatever is going on with this back and forth has real feelings involved and it’s hard to read. It’s been 2 years, and many of us still come to WotW because something about the show and/or books brought out passion and feelings. I’m still working on my writing, and I feel awkward finding the words to express what I’m feeling and why I wanted to respond to your back and forth. I guess I’m accepting of family arguing, and I do think WotW is like a family. Family members call each other out, but in the end they are still family and have to get past the issue. I’m amazed at the passion GOT created. Whether it’s passion and anger about the show ending, anger about GRRM not finishing, acceptance that GRRM may never finish, idolizing favorite actors, amazement at the artistry, amazement with the costumes, amazement with the special effects, wonder at the talent of people like Petra who can create awesome video essays… I’ll stop that thought for a moment. It gets tough when it seems to get personal, and that’s what gets harder to read.
I can see how people say they’ve had enough and won’t return and then return later. The passion is still there and we have to talk to someone about it!! What better place than here? It has been 2 years. But I keep coming back. I envy others here who have had complex and insightful discussions. There are some in this thread. I barely know how to respond, so often times I don’t. I am impressed by the depth of knowledge of the books, including Fire and Blood and GRRM’s other works. You have inspired me to read the books. I haven’t delved into Fire and Blood, but I did read the Princess and the Queen novella to give me a little background in HotD.
Anyway, even if you guys don’t resolve your arguments, I hope you keep coming back. Feel free to yell at me if you wish or yell at each other. Families do that. Just recognize we are still family, a family that is passionate about a show that ended 2 years ago. A family that is still passionate about waiting 10 years for the next book. Some are angry about it, others have given up, and yet others are still hopeful. I don’t mind hearing about season 8, but many do. I was mostly disappointed that the show had to end. That was the hardest thing about season 8. It all had to come to an end. Now we have a chance for a new show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I’m really excited to see where it goes.
Tron79,
That was a really nice post, Tron 😊
Tron79,
“I don’t mind hearing about season 8, but many do. I was mostly disappointed that the show had to end. That was the hardest thing about season 8. It all had to come to an end.”
I’ve reconciled that some aspects of S8 were disappointing and some were satisfying. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Many say the ending was bad. Others say it was beautiful. It was both. But that’s not something everyone would understand. They just don’t like endings.
It was bad. And it was beautiful. And now it’s over.
at 0:54 – 1:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAAc6qBty8g
Ashildr: “We know summer can’t last forever.”
Arya: “…And winter is coming.”
Young Dragon,
At 6/7/21, 3:56 pm I replied:
”Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment.
So… are you ready?
On 6/6/21 at 5:39 pm, I wrote:
🐴⚰️(Beating a dead horse?)
• I’m one of those GoT fans Petra described who has expressed concern that it may be difficult to get emotionally invested in The House of the Dragon because of the way House Targaryen ended up on S8 of GoT: extinguished.
(S8 showed them the “B.A.D. Principle”: They were “Beaten. Annihilated. And Destroyed.” I forget where I heard this…)
Now I remember.
Adrianacandle,
I agree on the bastard angle and him being probably viewed by and large by the Westerosi as a upstart should that become common knowledge, trying to trick the world into a a possible Targaryen position of power and inheritance.
Martin is definitely playing fake Aegon for that plot though and I think you may be right and he won’t use Jon against Daenerys that way a second time.
“Secret Targ” may come in when Jon and Dany meet as an emotional obstacle for Dany (just as it was in the show) to deal with the fact there’s another, a true born, that’s either more deserving or more entitled to the IT. Never mind that I’m curious how the incestuous relationship truly plays out in Jon’s mind. Dany may be just fine with that one.
In regards to the second quote: to me it always seemed that it is Robb that he’s envious about. Robb’s the oldest legitimate son of Ned Stark and King in the North by virtue of that specific heritage. I truly believe that Jon is envious about a very specific someone else being deemed worthy AND getting Ned’s full benefit of the name and legitimacy. A double coronation that at his age he’d have liked himself to have, that type of approval and acknowledgement. But I don’t believe it’s ambition and him being troubled because of the satins and titles and ladies and so forth.
And obviously he’ll do his duty. Which will be not exile, but being LC of the Kingsguard! Because he chose that life. Mind you he didn’t know there might be a different option at the time, because Ned was an ass and didn’t tell him.
And before anyone chimes in letting me know Ned was right in doing so because he was protecting Jon as per his promise to Lyanna, let me preemptively say: ok, buddy…
Just adding that It’s good to read everyone even though I see all are just as combative as ever. Some things don’t change and sometimes that’s good. Though obviously it may not seem like that to some.
Adrianacandle,
Thanks, and I’m responding to Ten Bears too.
His reference to Maisie’s DR. Who scene about endings reminded me, and because he also does lots of musical interludes, it reminded me of a line from Almost Famous.
RUSSELL
Look. Nobody’s feelings are getting
hurt here. She already knows Leslie’s
coming To New York tomorrow. They all
understand. This is the Circus.
Everybody’s trying not to go home.
Nobody’s saying goodbye.
I think when I wrote the post I realized how excited I was that a new show was coming. The fact the GOT had to end was the hardest part for me. That’s why I cried during “A Knight of the 7 Kingdoms”. It wasn’t just because I thought many of my fav’s would surely die in episode 3. It was because we wouldn’t get to see our fav’s anymore at all. It was coming to an end and there was nothing I could do about it. And with Jenny’s song it hit home that I was like Jenny, and after 2 years even more so!
Thanks so much for your posts. Speaking of “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”, that’s also the name of the Dunk and Egg compilation I’ve been reading. I’m almost done with the last novella “The Mystery Knight”. I don’t think I would have started reading ASOIAF at all if it wasn’t for reading your posts and posts from other book readers here at WotW. I’m glad I did, and the books gave me new insights to characters I only knew from the show. I’ve also never really read many novellas, and I quite enjoy GRRM’s. It’s a welcome change from 1000+ page installments and for those who like to have endings, you get them with the novellas!
Wimsey,
Having watched every GoT episode multiple times, I still cannot understand your claim, “… the conclusion and motivations were divorced from the story.” I also do not see any “arbitrariness” in the final season(s). To this viewer, at least, all of the story arcs and character arcs reached conclusions which felt richly earned. In the opening sequence, we see how easily trained soldiers are overcome by a single whatever-it-is. During the series, we learn what this threat is, how to defeat it, and how the characters who will defeat it come to do so. Their literal and metaphorical journeys to the battle progressed appropriately, at least for this viewer. I’m genuinely interested in knowing why you saw the same story much differently than did I.
I’m more referring to Mormont’s words and Jon’s response as indicators of where he end up 🙂 More a hint at exile and how he may be viewed by the Westerosi.
As for the “secret Targ” stuff, I don’t think it’ll be a problem in that way because a) people would have to buy R+L=J in universe for it to be something worth worrying about and I don’t think it will be believed by the common man and b) he’d have to want the Iron Throne, which I don’t think he will. That’s never been something that he’s yearned for. I think its purpose would play out in a different way and obstacles could also be different.
I honestly don’t think his fate will be different between the books and the show. I don’t think Jon is meant to be celebrated but unsung, per Mormont’s words to him, and “condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name”. I think Jon’s purpose is as a shield and ultimately a bridge — he’ll play a major part in ushering in a new era but won’t be part of era. Further, with Jaime, the scorn he faced was very much his Start of Darkness when he stayed in Westeros and dealt with the people’s derision, which had a corrupting influence on him. With Jon, he’d face an even greater scorn because in addition to the kingslaying if he kills Dany, there’d also be the bastard prejudice, letting in the wildlings, etc. Jon’s already got a bad reputation in-universe among the Westerosi and I don’t think Westeros is the best place for him. I think Jon beyond away from Westeros is a good thing in the end.
As for Ned agreeing to let Jon join the Night’s Watch, I don’t think that was ever Ned’s plan but Robert arrived, Ned hadn’t made plans for his kids and had to make hasty decisions, Catelyn refused to have Jon stay in Winterfell with Robb as Ned had hoped, and Castle Black — while hard — is viewed as an honorable calling in the North. It’s where Benjen was and while it had some very unpleasant people, it also contained an assortment of good people (nothing a trained guy like Jon couldn’t handle) and placed Jon beyond Robert’s reach. I get Jon’s resentment, which Jon did have, but I think it was best choice considering.
Tron79,
I hope you’re enjoying the Mystery Knight and I’m glad this whole world had been opened up to you! 🙂 I was thinking of giving myself a refresher as I had with the novellas for HotD and Fire & Blood. It’s so easy to get all the names mixed up with the similar roots (the Ae’s, the Rhae’s, and so on) but when they’re attached to a personality and visualization of the character in your mind’s eye, I think it’s easier to keep them apart 🙂
Adrianacandle,
I know what you’re saying about the names. Some have very similar roots as you say. We need nick names like Dany for the blacks and greens.
Tron79,
Yeah, especially considering there
Exiled North of the Wall, you mean? I’m not even convinced that happens in the show to begin with. I’m of the belief he’s in the NW. And if he truly kills Dany after she burns KL, I have difficulty believing that anyone would exile him. Especially Bran, Sansa, Tyrion or any other Westerosi POV with power in the books. I found GW asking for him to be exiled sort of awkward and out of place in the series and I just binge watched the whole series again. I seriously cringed.
Mormont may be right about John not speaking out his true name that if Aegon Targaryen. And you may be right about him being a shield but beyond the wall he’s not really a shield to anyone.
With the Others gone, I can see him resuming the NW duties simply because of self punishment and not knowing other duty he can be at peace with, assuming he was truly in love with Dany and he’s suffering for killing her. In the end that’s what I believed Mormont to be saying to him.
Many argued when the series finished what good is a NW now? but wildlings will still be wildlings. They were the natural enemy of the Westerosi North even when no one believed anymore that a supernatural threat existed that can arise in the Lands of Always Winter. It’s hard to believe that they simply will stop raiding the North just because they fought on the side of the living with Jon for a while.
^^ And all of this why I’m in the Jon will remain LC in the NW camp.
Oh I remember her and her refusal to allow Jon to stay. I also remember her thinking NW will be perfect for Jon to have no children and thus not threaten in any possible way Robb and her other children’s inheritance and Stark legacy.
To that point if I recall correctly that little shit master Lewin gave Ned the news that Jon to NW may be a good road the 14 yr old was “inspired” to take. More likely disappointed and disillusioned to take but who cared about that.
Never mind that Ned knew exactly what it meant and as an honorable person he hesitated for a minute to take away Jon’s possible future fam should he choose to have one at some point. But then, it wasn’t really his son so I guess it was ok.
I will now take my little #JusticeForJon soapbox and let you people discuss more important things than BookJon and BookCat and BookNed.
TormundsWoman,
Well, Jon being in the NW or not — I’ll leave that up to each individual viewer 🙂 People have their own ideas on that. I think he is serving the spirit of his NW vows and is on an extended ranging.
As for exile, kingslaying and oathbreaking are up there with the most serious and forbidden crimes you can commit in Westeros. No matter the reason or what it prevented, this action would be met with scorn — as it was for Jaime. Aerys was not a beloved king, he was hated and feared but Jaime was still derided and scored for killing his king. The Westerosi, their ways, and prejudices…. :/
As for the rest, I’m going to side-step because I seriously don’t want to get into a season 8 fight! But I don’t think GW requested exile, it was decided by Bran as a compromise for peace.
I more meant Jon’s role in the story itself, not really after. However, the Others may come again or whatever defeated them (or whatever truce they may reach with the living) could be finite. There is a deleted line from the 8×06 script in which Tyrion says, “Winter may come again”. But as for Jon, I think Jon isn’t an Aragon but more a Frodo and per the scripts, he did love Dany, and I think killing her would haunt him and stay with him forever — and the losses of other loved ones would follow him as well. I don’t think Jon is set up for a happy ending — but I think being away from Westeros is the best place for him.
I think that goes to how the Others are dealt with in the books. They’re quite a bit different from the show’s iteration. The conflict with the Others may end (for a time) with negotiation. I have my own tinfoil on that. However, given GRRM’s own views on unity vs. separatism, I don’t think he’d have the wildlings be excluded as enemies again but I think how to manage the wildling goes to what GRRM wondered about Aragon’s tax policy — how do you deal with these intricacies and more mundane aspects of ruling? What kind of conditions do you impose on the wildlings if they wish to say in Westeros?
GRRM’s comments on this subject:
(Tuscon 43, November 15, 2016)
Source
Also, the reason the wildlings raided was for survival because they lived in such a harsh landscape where, like, nothing grew and food was of short supply but if the Lands of Always Winter thaw, they may not have to do that anymore. Natural food sources may become more plentiful where nomad wildlings can hunt and gather instead of raid.
Well, Jon did express a desire to join the Night’s Watch to do some hero-ing and to earn his own honor. It was also one of the few places a bastard could rise. Jon was also told it meant giving up the chance to marry and have kids — he and Benjen have that conversation in Jon’s first chapter of AGOT.
But I don’t think Ned was thinking this way (“it wasn’t really his son so I guess it was ok”). Ned had to make fast decisions in an extremely limited amount of time (two weeks), which wouldn’t really be enough time to set up a fostering considering how slow communication is in these days. One can fault Ned for not preparing for the future but he didn’t have a lot of great options and time was extremely finite.
TormundsWoman,
Oh! I forgot to include Aragorn’s tax policy quote from GRRM for reference 🙂 Maybe, for wildlings who choose to stay in Westeros (if they do in the books), such conditions would need to be looked at so their practices don’t impose on others who don’t observe their culture. Tricky things :/
I had another thought on this in addition to Aragon’s tax policy and the wildlings’ way of life being impacted by the harsh lands they were forced to survive.
In the books, Val tells Jon that there are good apples and bad apples with wildlings and Westerosi both. Even within Westeros, there are people who raid and reap — the Ironborn. Conquerers also raid and reap (even Robb did during his conquest of the Westerlands). Jon comes to adopt Val’s view himself — they all have good, bad, and everything-in-between people, no matter where they come from but they’re all people. The wildlings aren’t so much the “natural enemy of the Westerosi North” — the Northerners and wildlings descend from the same ancestors. The First Men. But the wildlings are the ones who were excluded and left on the wrong side of the Wall, forced to inhabit and survive incredibly harsh terrain and lifestyles, which is what their customs developed around (encouraging and prioritizing strength and endurance). Not to mention the Northmen fought amongst themselves for dominance over thousands of years so it’s not like the wildlings were the only source of conflict 🙂
The true purpose of the Night’s Watch was never to fight wildlings but to guard the realms of men — all men, as Jon realizes in this passage:
This is a major turning point for Jon, his character, and it reflects what GRRM said here:
I have a hard time seeing GRRM go back on this and having Jon head a NW to fight so as to keep out the wildlings again. Unity seems to be an important theme in ASOIAF. It’s difficult to achieve, super tricky to maintain, and hard to navigate — but it seems to GRRM, it’s an important part of a better world.
Jai,
The show runners did nothing wrong. Just became you dislike it doesn’t mean they did anything wrong.
Adrianacandle,
“I think HotD needs to set itself apart as a separate show with hooks of its own rather than trying to make up for anything or rely on an existing audience.”
You are absolutely right here, I think it should rely a little on the nostalgia but clearly mark itself as something different from GoT, like GoT did at the beggining by marketing itself as a “fantasy show for those who don’t like fantasy”.
It would be SO funny if the show’s intro was the same as the one of the Tudors, maybe with the actress playing Rhaenyra sayng “you think you know a story, but you only know how it ends, to get to the heart of the story, you have to go back to the beggining”.
“I don’t know if it’s agism, I don’t believe we know how old Alicent is when we start the show? Born in 88 AC, I think she is 23 when she and Rhaenyra wear their respective black vs. green clothes. Perhaps they may jump back and forth throughout the timeline, showing a younger Alicent? I think it may be easier (via make-up) to age up a younger actress than to age down an older one.”
So Alicent was born in 88 ac and got married in 106 ac, meeaning that alicent was 18 when she married (is that right? I’m awful at math lol), anyway, the infamous tourney happened 5 years after which would have made Alicent 23 yes, however, a while ago we speculated that the still images that we saw corresponed to
[SPOILER] Laena Velaryon’s funeral [/SPOILER]
That event takes place in 120 ac making Alicent already 32 years old, already 6 years older than the actress, and, 9 years later its when the Dance actually begins, and that’s When we see Alicent’s true nature, who she has become, her range, complexities and emotional core, clearly one of the most extraordinary and dynamic characters in ASOIAF, a much much more competent Cersei / Margaery.
The only reason why I would accept this approach is if the show actually focused more on Alicent’s POV so we see her in KL during her adolesence, then it would completely make sense to have casted a 26 year old.
[SPOILER] Maybe the show starts with a teenage Alicent attending to an old King Jaehaerys, we see glimpses of her wit and resourcefulness, we may even root for her [/SPOILER]
Adrianacandle,
Oh honey, Don’t apologize for replying “too much” I love to read your thoughts on the matter!
The thing is, as awful as the other families are, which I’m not gonna deny, they are the only ones who have weapons of massive destruction and that makes them even more dangerous,it literaly puts them on god tier level, and thats scary.
Yeah my Highties (Hightowers lol) are quite bad, but you understand their motives, its not that they are twisting their moustaches and speaking with an awful russian accent, they are deep rich characters and their cause is more than justified by the law, the culture and their own inner character traits.
OberonYronwood,
My speculation is that the series may be filming out of order — which is common — and we’re not sure whose funeral that is (but I imagine you’re right!) I speculate that they will be showing some of the earlier parts of the story,
But should the series be showing the earlier parts of the story as well as the later parts, it might be more efficient to employ a 26-year old actress who can play her teenaged self as well as have make-up applied to make her look older.
And now The Tudors theme song is in my head 😉
Fire blood87,
Well, the fact that something is succesfull doesn’t mean is good though, Doesn’t it?
But hey, if you liked them that great for you, I enjoyed them (otherwise I wouldn’t be in this website) but I personally think the writing could have been so much better.
OberonYronwood,
You’re right about motives — which would go for all characters too (well, most characters). However, the Hightowers did have access to weaponizing dragons themselves through Alicent’s sons and
Likewise, not all Targaryens put themselves on a god-tier level. Some did but I don’t see that attitude so much in HotD.
There’s also the fact that non-Targaryens flew dragons too
So I think it goes beyond family name but to individual character. I quoted this passage above but I’ll include it again here 🙂
GRRM once said:
(Btw, I love hearing your thoughts on these stories as well! 🙂 )
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
“This is something that really confuses me… when S7 came out, it was loved by majority. Episodes all had high ratings on IMDB and I don’t think there was any controversy circling around among the fandom… but since S8 ended, S7 is now hated among firm portion of fandom. There’s some “general consensus” among certain fandom now that GoT “got terrible” with S7 and I don’t get how is it possible then that S7 was so well-recepted when it got released but then reception made 180 turn after the show wrapped up.”
Well, I ‘m not an authority myself on anything so I’m just gonna talk about my own experience: I LOVED the first three episodes of season 7, the pacing was great, the characters were as vibrant and as complex as always, and loved every single scene, honestly, the queen’s justice is one of my favs in the entire series, however, the writting became messier towards the end of it.
I just brushed off my concerns thinking that everything would have a HUGE payoff in season 8 and everything would be great and… nope not even close, and it was specially frustating given that my absolute favourite character Sansa ended up as Queen, I should have been over the moon with the ending but I didn’t I hated the rushed and nonsensical way we got there.
Mind you this is my personal experience, I’m not trying to be edgy or cool or whatever, and It genuinely makes me happy to know you enjoyed the last two seasons the most, but it’s not my case.
“Something I do hope HotD will “imprint” among audience is firmly showing the darker side of the dragons and of course Targaryens. In GoT, dragons were “magical”… ”
I completely agree with you, they need to show that whilst being great and all, dragons are extremely dangerous creatures, especially if they are controlled by terrible tyrants like Daemon or Aemond one eye.
Jon Snowed,
I LOVED the Better call Saul reference, that is precisely what I want this show to become, clearly based on nostalgia but good enough (outstandingly good in fact) that it can rely on its own.
I feel like we are always the same people commenting, we should honestly do a podcats with the people from the comment section and the people in charge of Watchers on the wall or something hahaha, Petra, Sue Luka, what do you think??
Adrianacandle,
Oh absolutely, what I find thet most fascinating about the Hightowers is that they are..well, nothing tbh, they Don’t have inmense fire breathing dragons, the Targaryens have, they Don’t command the biggest fleet the world has ever seen like the Velaryons, heck, they don’t even rule over their own hourse, Otto is just the second son, his brother, and then nephew, is the actual ruler.
What what they DO have is their cunning, they are able to control half of the dragons, a huge army and basically rule an entire continent by themselves, that takes a huge amount of talent and an equally big amount of ambition which
[SPOILER] of course, will be their downfall [/SPOILER]
Adrianacandle,
Yeah, you are right, and please guys, Don’t take what I said about the casting as an attack towards Olivia, I’m sure she’ll be outstanding in the role and I cannot wait to see her portraying my fav character.
Adrianacandle,
YOUNG GRIFF FOR THE THRONE. ARIANNE MARTELL QUEEN OF THE UNIVERSE YES PLEASE.
AT LEAST UNTIL THEY GET BURNED BY DANY WHEN SHE GOES CRAY CRAY
Look, I’m dornish, I cannot help myself haha and I truly think my sweet Aegon would make a great king with Arianne by his side.
OberonYronwood,
Yes, re: the Hightowers but while these qualities and choices led to their demise, I’d argue it also led to this entire conflict in the first place.
Not that Rhaenyra isn’t responsible for her choices and actions in turn — she is!! But the Greens seemed to want to kindle those sparks and set the world on fire for their own interests so long as they get what they want — power (well, I’m referring to Alicent, Otto, Aegon, and Aemond — Helaena was an innocent casualty of this war, in addition to her children, who suffered unimaginable cruelty from Team Black).
As for the books, I don’t know how it’s going to go with Young Griff and all that but I do think he will win the approval of Westeros and Dorne and appear to be an ideal ruler. Although, there is a difference between perception and reality. However,
Fully agree, if anyone has read Fire & Blood then they should appreciate all those connected with the show gave absolutely everything and some of hthe criticism of D&D is widely inaccurate and wrong.
Unfortunately, I have a quibble with this and can’t entirely agree.
I agree the Hightowers have human traits and motives — just like anyone else but…
Otto and Alicent defying this so as to get Alicent’s son on the throne, I don’t know any other motive than power? They didn’t really earn Rhaenyra’s ire until they took the crown and defied the king’s will — and the king is who makes the law.
Otto was the one who initially pushed Viserys to make Rhaenyra his heir because he thought Daemon (who’d be Viserys’s heir per the Precedent) was The Worst. But then, that all changes when his daughter marries Viserys and has sons with him, making the Precedent appealing to Otto now because under the Precedent, it’d be his grandson on the throne — consolidating power for his family line. However, prior to Alicent marrying Viserys, Viserys ended up doing as Otto initially wanted and made Rhaenyra his heir in a very public ceremony for all to see. Rhaenyra didn’t have any alarm bells going off at this time, what the Hightowers did wasn’t for the good of the realm, Rhaenyra was raised to be queen under Viserys and had the proper education. She was celebrated as the “Realm’s Delight” as a girl.
So I don’t think the Hightowers hijacking the throne in defiance of Viserys’s will was actually justified. That doesn’t mean they aren’t human characters twirling mustaches. Alicent, for one, had a deep deep love for her children. But I can’t call their action in kicking off the DoD justified… :/
OberonYronwood,
“….. Alicent’s true nature, who she has become, her range, complexities and emotional core, clearly one of the most extraordinary and dynamic characters in ASOIAF, a much much more competent Cersei / Margaery.”
———-
Really? That’s quite an impressive description. Then I’ll reaffirm…
https://funart.pro/uploads/posts/2019-11/1575025257_instagram-olivija-kuk-15.jpg
…She is my Queen.
https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/6064e0685e531a46c84d7e7f/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/0421-Olivia-Cooke-Beauty-001-Lede.jpg
Now and always!
💚
Jai,
Mando is very good, but it’s very safe. They dont take many chances to piss off the die hard star war fans. i enjoy it but it does sometimes become very fan fiction at times. I’m worried that house of the dragon might go this route and i would enjoy it as much as i enjoyed the original series.
Stew,
Bob Odenkirk is great. Even his cameo appearance in Waynes World 2 back in the day was funny.
He comes in around the :25 second mark.
Adrianacandle,
”I agree the Hightowers have human traits and motives — just like anyone else but…
So I don’t think the Hightowers hijacking the throne in defiance of Viserys’s will was actually justified … But I can’t call their action in kicking off the DoD justified…
:”/
That’s kind of like how I felt about Ned Stark disregarding King Robert’s will – actually forging Robert’s Will – and essentially “plunging the realm into civil war.”
One might even say the Dance of the Stags was set in motion by Ned’s ill-advised decision to override the express last wishes of his supposed best friend and monarch. If Ned hadn’t presumed to reconfigure the orderly ascension of Robert’s heir upon his death, there would’ve been no Stannis B. vs. Joffrey B. vs. Renly B. civil war.
Thanks Ned.
Ten Bears,
Ned did inadvertently play a role in kicking off the war but there are some crucial differences.
Cersei lied about her childrens’ parentage. Robert didn’t know this. He didn’t know Joffrey wasn’t his son. Robert named Joffrey in his will based on false information.
Ned didn’t write “lawful heir” instead of “Joffrey” for power or to consolidate power for himself, he was following the line of succession — which was the established law Robert was following. Ned knew Cersei’s children weren’t Robert’s but Robert didn’t know this. This is why Robert expected his throne to go to Joffrey, because he thought Joffrey was his son. Had Robert known the truth, Cersei and her children may have been put to death. Ned didn’t intend to withhold the truth from Robert — he did intend to tell Robert but Robert was then fatally injured. He only does so on Robert’s death bed so as not to hurt him in his last moments.
Cersei lied, in part to secure power for herself and because she refused (in the books) to bear Robert’s sons due to her hatred for him.
Otto first pushes Viserys to disregard the Precedent so as to disinherit Daemon but then when Alicent has sons by Viserys, he switches teams again. For power. They defy Viserys’s will to consolidate power for their own.
Haha! Hilarious.
Also true! Martin uses Ned horrendously. Stannis B being next in line to Bobby (who by all accounts was a disastrous king and he realizes that himsef) was perfectly acceptable over Lannister kids, but any other Targ being in rightfully in line to rule after Arys the Mad King was a no-no if it interfered with his Bobby’s rule.
Basically what we notice with Ned is: lines of succession are really super important only sometimes.
TormundsWoman,
I’m really sorry if I’m misunderstanding but Ned wasn’t pushing for a Targ rule or inheritance. The Targaryens were overthrown so they no longer had the right of succession. Under Robert, with Cersei’s kids not being true Baratheons, Stannis was Robert’s heir. That’s who Ned was supporting for the throne per the line of succession.
I think they are. Wildings and Westerosi may have the same ancestor it doesn’t mean their ways of life haven’t diverged to the point where they are the natural opposites from a societal and economic point of view. TWOIAF goes into some detail on how they are enemies for thousands of years. It’s not only the raiding and raving across the Wall it’s their whole system of beliefs, like that land belongs to no one in particular, that there are no kings unless you chose them and you definitely do not owe allegiance to none, unless you chose to bestow it unconditionally.
The several times in the last 3000 yrs when they DID chose a single leader, they marched in force to take the Wall and the North. It was the North with the Umbers and the Starks that opposed them. These are not things that go away just because Jon realizes there are bad apples in any society.
Well, in the TV series, Jon himself chose to oppose Mance when he asked to let him cross the Wall because the winds are rising in the North and the Others are coming. He eventually relented but only because he finally realized there’s a bigger threat. A threat to humanity.
In the books Jon goes to assassinate Mance and this one asks the same things as in the TV series, offering the Horn of Joramund but the important thing in the negotiation is that Mance says the wildings will keep to their way of life if let south of the Wall.
Extremely important: There will be no kneeling, no abiding by Southron laws and as a little shoutout to Aragorn tax policy issue, Martin says no taxes :D. I say Martin because Mance is also a bit of Martin’s voice.
Honestly, I fail to see how Jon the way he was written so far, can sit at the Wall without doing anything to prevent what wildings were doing for thousands of years. It may also take generations for the free folk to change their ways and not attack the Wall and the North. Nevermind that the North is Sansa’s apparently now…
Just to be clear. I love the free folk. I love their chaos, their unruliness their fearlesness and their liberty. I am not sure I would like living between them though.
Maybe with Tormund. After all his my fave.
Lol I love that. Extended ranging. 😀
Could be, after all that’s what his heart was set on when he joined the NW.
I wasn’t fighting or looking for one. I would never! Cringing is a natural way of expressing displeasure and disbelief at what one perceives as a bad thing.
You are correct about GW not asking specifically for NW punishment. I consolidated the whole scene from the start to finish. GW just simply says Jon cannot go free or some such and there will be punishment. Tyrion points out that it’s not up to him and then I simply stopped paying full attention because I was busy cringing…
That was sarcasm, Adriana. Of course Ned didn’t think that. We are after all in his head and even if we wouldn’t be, one can tell from Ned’s ways of trying to be honorable that he’d be horrified should that type of thought ever cross his mind.
We leave that type of thinking to someone like Cat. /sarcasm
TormundsWoman,
The wildlings weren’t fighting the Westerosi for nothing or because they don’t have anything better to do, they were doing doing all this for survival. The Wall was erected, leaving the wildlings in a harsh, barren landscape where resources are extremely limited. This is why the wildlings raid and reap (but not all clans — the Thenns don’t, for instance). And then vulnerable to the Others.
They also unified under Mance to breach Westeros in order to survive because the Others were after them. They wanted to get on the other side of the Wall.
With the threat of the Others gone, the Lands of Always Winter thawing, these aren’t really issues anymore. The wildlings can be permitted to stay in Westeros — but, of course, under conditions. And if they break those conditions, they face the consequences — like any other people. The wildlings can adapt if they want to be south.
The wildlings aren’t the only cultures who raid and reap. The Ironborn do too as do leaders participating in conquest.
Well, Jon’s primary goal there was because the wildling were people — men, women, and children — who are also deserving of protection. They are part of the realms of men, of humanity. Jon also wants to embark on a suicide mission to save the wildlings at Hardhome and plans on settling them in the Gift — and not temporarily. He also creates a new House — House Thenn — in order to integrate the wildlings into Westeros via the marriage of Alys and the Sigorn of Thenn.
I believe Mance says the wildlings will not bend, which is different from saying they will not abide by conditions set upon them. Jon isn’t requiring the wildling to pledge fealty but, as he says, he needs them to obey. And if they don’t and proceed to raid and reap, they face consequences. This is why Jon takes the 100 hostages to keep the wildlings in line. From thereon, wildlings can learn to adapt or after the threat is dealt with, return to the thawing Lands of Always Winter. It’s up to them. But as long as they abide by the conditions and only practice their customs amongst themselves, there should be no problem. For those who break the laws, they are subject to the punishments of the king.
Also, I believe Jon is sent to assassinate Mance to end his attack on the Wall — this attack being done because the wildlings are trying to escape the Others.
Jon’s arc is about unity and GRRM has impressed the importance of unity — in his own thoughts and through Jon’s arc. Plus, the wildlings were only doing what they could for thousands of years to survive in a hostile land. That may no longer be the case after the threat of the Others is over. I don’t see why they’d have to be enemies again, especially since Westeros has its own raiders and reapers they put up with as it is (the Ironborn).
In ADWD, Jon has also imposed conditions on the wildlings so they abide by southern laws in order to prevent bloodshed. In a similar vein, laws can be applied to the wildlings by the ruling king after the Others are defeated for any wildlings willing to stay in Westeros. Some may not. The Gift is land belonging to the Night’s Watch so I don’t think Sansa — if she is QitN in the books (and I’m not sure about that) — has dominion over that parcel of land.
I don’t think ASOIAF is going to end with the wildlings becoming enemies of Westeros again, I think that would be contrary to GRRM’s themes. However, I can see how GRRM’s thoughts on Aragon’s tax policy would apply here to wildlings wishing to stay in Westeros. They may not though if the land beyond the Wall proves habitable.
Plus, Jon — much like the Others — is a misfit who doesn’t really belong. It’s that empathy and understanding that I think makes Jon more of a bridge and negotiator. His experiences as a bastard and outsider are, I think, one of the reasons why he gels with certain views the wildlings have (merit-based leadership) and certain members of the freefolk.
Correction: I mean after decimating the wildlings in droves and killing the Giants in the first wave of attack when Mance comes with the biggest fire and army the North has ever seen. Anyway Sannis took care of that problem by taking the rest of the free folk prisoners.
And when I say he finally relented, it was really the Hardhome fallout.
I make this correction because I consolidated the whole thing in my head again. I don’t think it’s good to post on large issues for me, looks like I tend to mush things together 🙁
OberonYronwood,
Funny, I was actually the other way around with S7… I was the most unsure about it BEFORE it was released but with its release and S8 release, I grew to love it even more than I assumed I would (now I firmly treat them as one 13-episode season though). I absolutely LOVED S6 and it’s still my favorite GoT season up to this day, additionally brightened by my participation here on WoTW in 2016. But as soon as S6 ended, I started to some sort of… alienate (?) myself from hype for S7 because I was worried we’ll be dealing with very “fanservice season” that would be made with intention to elevate Dany into worshipping clouds while Cersei would be straight “mad queen” who would be no match for Dany. Immense hype started to appear about Jon and Dany meeting and numerous comments surfaced regarding how they’re actually “the story” and everyone else is just supporting characters in their stories – that was kind of “bothering me” because I always saw GoT as ensemble cast story and I was never really into “worshipping” characters above others. And on top of that, some “dark Sansa” theories started to emerge after S6 (the season that firmly solidified her as my favorite character), including something that Arya might kill her and so on and so on so as much as I loved GoT, I ended up being “worried” about S7 instead of eagerly expecting it.
But when S7 aired, my fears were soon put to rest because I realized we’re not following this typical fantasy story flow. Some of the major points that made me put my fears to rest:
1) Cersei was not really “mad queen evil” and actually managed to deliver a heavy blow to Dany in early season, obliterating majority of her Westerosi allies
2) Jon and Dany met early on and their meeting was tense with both characters being “deconstructed” to some extent
3) Dany burning the Lannister army was not really shot in “worshipping manner” but in much darker tone, even ambigous tone if we’re at that
4) Sansa remained a protagonist and there was no villainous plot from her side
5) White Walkers came into heavy play this season, including killing Dany’s dragon and evening the odds immensely – no “fantasy future” of three dragon riders facing White Walkers with entire force of Westeros behind
6) The temporary “truce” between Dany and Cersei made me firmly think that S8 won’t be typical “heroic story” but something more complex and possibly darker because if that wasn’t the case, Cersei would have been dealt with this season
So with all these ticked off (and some more I didn’t list) my appreciation for S7 ended up being very strong, with my least favorite episode being Eastwatch (my no.53 out of 73 episodes – also my lowest ranking among all S7/S8 episodes) which simply wasn’t anything special to me. Two episodes climbed into my top 10 (with S8 release, one of them is now no.11), two more into my top 20 (still there after S8)… all in all, I appreciated it a lot and I think if I singled out my least favorite part of S7, I would probably say Sam’s Oldtown detour which I felt was a bit too “sped up” considering he kept traveling there for entire S6.
And with S8 release (which I loved) and my subsequent “conjoining” of these two seasons, my fondness of S7 grew even higher as now S7 became the “build-up arc” to the twisted and dark climax in form of S8 and with the way how S8 ended (or to be more exact, how it resulted in The Bells) I started seeing S7 as darker than before and I already said numerous times I LOVE if TV shows get truly dark in its endgame stages. So pieces fell into place for me, knowing where and how it all ends, and combined S7/S8 became my third favorite season behind S6 (my favorite) and S4 (my second favorite). Any part from S7 or S8, from the least controversial to most controversial ones, I KNOW why I love it or am satisfied with it and I can always firmly answer that in long essays. I won’t go into details here but if someone askes me, I’m always happy to answer… from Dany’s downfall, to Cersei’s death, to Bran’s coronation. There are areas of improvement of course but all in all, I have very little actual issues with these two seasons, even less now when I know where the story is headed.
The only “piece” that remains for me now is for me to rewatch the entirety of GoT for the first time with knowledge where it ends because regardless of TV show, first rewatch is crucial for me and so far in any TV show I rewatched, the emotional impact and “insightfulness” only deepened for me and I’m sure I’ll feel similar with GoT and discover stuff that I didn’t pay much attention first time around but will make more impact on me when knowing where the story is headed. But considering I’m currently watching “Supernatural” and “The Office” for first time and rewatching “The Sopranos” for first time and I rewatched LOST last year (4th journey), GoT rewatch is not on my schedule yet but I’m hyped when it will happen.
TormundsWoman,
Oh, no! I’m sorry for the misunderstanding! I didn’t say you were looking for a fight! I am expressing my own wariness and caution in order to avoid one because I find the s8 ones exhausting — it was not meant to be a comment on you! I’m sorry!
I’m sorry for my mistake of your meaning, TormundsWoman — I sometimes can’t tell sarcasm from text 🙁
Anyway, I did reply to your post re: the wildlings but our gracious and loving Lord of Light has held it back for moderation so it may be released later today! I made the post at June 9, 2021 at 12:32 pm WotW time 🙂
OberonYronwood,
”Well, I ‘m not an authority myself on anything so I’m just gonna talk about my own experience: I LOVED the first three episodes of season 7, the pacing was great, the characters were as vibrant and as complex as always, and loved every single scene, honestly, the queen’s justice is one of my favs in the entire series, however, the writting became messier towards the end of it.”
—
Until S7e3? What about S7e4? I thought the Loot Train battle scene aka Field of Fire 2.0 was edge-of-your-seat thrilling. And for those of us who were partial to a certain
character, there was this delightful scene in S7e4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mWKRXV7gFk
I think for many fans, the show started going off the rails in S7e5
Still lots to love about the show. It’s just that some aspects of it started feeling slapdash and dumbed down.
Adrianacandle,
“Well, Jon being in the NW or not — I’ll leave that up to each individual viewer 🙂 People have their own ideas on that. I think he is serving the spirit of his NW vows and is on an extended ranging.”
That last scene of the last episode with Jon escorting the Free Folk out of Castle Black was one of the few times I liked that things were left open-ended and ambiguous.
(“Where’s he going? Is he coming back? Is he gonna be the new King Beyond the Wall? Why’d they need him to ride on horseback with them?”)
One thing I thought was pretty clear is that the Free Folk adored King Crow. After all, he fought for their very survival. Those young Wildlings accompanying him seemed pretty happy.
An “extended ranging” sounds nice. In my mind, I’d like to imagine there are plenty of unattached spearwives and war widows who’d like nothing better than to soothe his heartache.
Mr Derp,
thats awesome he is great i didnt realize he goes that far back acting. i loved his role in how i met your mother as well. very good under rated actor for a long time.
One of the items not included in Game of Thrones appears in the final chapter of the fourth book, when
I’m hoping this becomes part of the story of the decline of House Targ’.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Funnily enough I also got incredibly nervous about season 7, and my nerves soothed when I watched the first episode, I said “wow, this is absolutely great”, well done, and episodes 2 and 3 were amazing too, especially episode 3 with Jon and Dany meeting, Sansa ruling the North, Ellaria’s prison scene and Olena’s death, sure, they sacrified a lot of logic during this episodes for the sake of the narrative (like the greyjoy fleet attack or Highgarden being stupidly armed and patheticaly weak) BUT the pay-off clearly compensated for it, just like in season 6, logic in some capacity was thrown out of the window but it was still amazing.
then episodes 4 – 7 came and there was not emotional pay-off anymore, Yes, Daenerys and Jon were quite sweet and LF was finally killed but they way we got there was so incredibly messy I just didn’t enjoy the result anymore, I just got slightly annoyed but I justified it by thinking that season 8 would be worth it.
Don’t get me wrong, this is not me saying “well, I’m clearly right and you are wrong”, I love the fact that you enjoyed the last two seasons I really do, I just dont share the sentiment.
I agree with seasons 7 and 8 being one total final season with two parts, that’s a smart way of looking at it, I just think 13 episodes was nowhere near enough to finish this many plot lines, which is excatly what’s happening to George, there is no way he is gonna finish the plot in just two books.
I wanted more time to see Daenerys’ descend into madness, Cersei’s awful rule as Queen, Sansa’s schemes for power, Bran’s…welll, doing something?, Arya’s doubts on what her place was gonna be, I wanted the show that took its time to let its characters grow and evolve, make mistakes and clearly pay for them, I personaly didn’t get that,
It only took Daenerys one episode from going to badass queen savour of Westeros in episode 3 to go full genocidal madness, she was ruthless before but never to that level of killing innocent peasants, again, this is the same Daenerys that was risking her own life two episodes ago, fighting on the battlefield to save the entire world.
I’m not saying the ending was awful on itself, in fact, I enjoyed most of the things happening (primarily Sansa getting crowned as QiTN) but I truly believe the show would have benefited from having more time, it felt rushed and borderline nonsensical, and that’s not what GoT used to be, I think thats what offended people the most, is that GoT presented itself as a serious fantasy story, where the characters will be flawed and complex and will suffer from the consequences of their actions, just as humans do in real life, I didn’t get that feeling anymore when I was watching the last two seasons, it felt like a completely different show.
We could spend hours and hours talking about this tbh, and I personaly pride myself on not one of those who will insult the people who enjoyed seasons 7 & 8 (seriously, some people need to get a life) but I’m afraid I will not agree with you on this one.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I would also like to say how sorry I am that people attack you online, its one thing that you Didn’t like (or even hated) seasons 7 & 8 but to attack other individuals and even calling them stupid? I mean, come on!
And now that we have opened Pandora’s box, I would very much like to know you opinion on Daenery’s downfall, I’m not being sarcastic or anything, I genuinely wanna know what you think.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
I believe that’s the claim and theory but it’s not quite confirmed or understood yet. The thought is put into readers’ head by Marwyn though.
It’s thought that the maesters didn’t only want to get rid of dragons but magic altogether as they don’t trust or like magic:
Yet:
* Most of the dragons were killed in The Dance. Those that weren’t vanished. Only one dragon remained.
* Aemon himself says he choose to serve in the Night’s Watch while the A World of Ice and Fire (app) explains he went to Castle Black so as not to be used against his brother, Egg (Aegon).
There is the fan-developed giant Grand Maester Conspiracy Theory surrounding this and Alt Shift X explores what might be going on but concludes there is no actual evidence.
Wrt dragons, it’s theorized that the maesters may have used their position to manipulate the Hightowers (who are largely responsible for The Dance) into starting this war that killed all the dragons. Maesters wield great influence over the powers in Westeros — they are teachers, advisers, healers. Dustin tells Theon:
But still, no evidence of that the maesters manipulated the Hightowers or other powers into starting this war. The Hightowers had their own believable motivations — power. Otto wanted Rhaenyra on the throne to disinherit Daemon until Otto’s daughter has a son by the king and that’s when Otto flips. And Otto’s grandson is who the Hightowers place on the throne. Otto’s line through Alicent would rule Westeros with Aegon on the throne — Aegon is half Hightower. The Hightowers don’t really need maester manipulation to start this conflict. Families have warred for power and dominion for years to get their blood in the seat of power, including the Starks and their conquest of the North.
The maesters also don’t show much fondness for magic either. Several passages have maesters talking about how magic was once a mighty force in the world but is no longer. They also don’t trust magic:
But there’s no proof for these conspiracies — which is what makes Marwyn’s statement so interesting. Marwyn also is a bit of a rogue maester too who practises magic himself, I believe. Something probably is going on but we don’t know exactly what or what went down 😉
Yeah, this is why I wonder if two books is a bit optimistic (for a number of reasons — we’d be lucky to get one book) but I don’t think two books is enough to finish everything he’s got going on either. ASOIAF was originally meant to be a trilogy but that turned into five books and now seven books… going by that pattern, maybe our final number is nine? 🙂
It makes sense he wanted a trilogy since GRRM is such a fan of LOTR. I had estimated about 3000 pages were needed to finish the story so that really is three books or two 1500 page books. I was just looking at the pacing of the other books as my guide. Of course he could just wrap it all up on one page if he wants with a brief cliff note outline but I would think he’ll keep the same style and follow the characters where they lead. He also did build up to faster paced action at the end of each book which I enjoyed.
I think — given how much GRRM has going on, how many characters, plots, and side-plots he’s introduced (I can’t even remember them all off the top of my head) — more than 3000 pages would be needed. I’m hoping he doesn’t add more to that but he has talked about getting swept up with side-plots and characters which he now needs to resolve. Each book has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and GRRM talks a bit about that here:
I feel, where ADWD leaves off, it’s largely at a precipice for so many characters, plots, and stories that he now needs to start weaving together into coherent narratives, which would be tricky. ADWD still feels like a mid point. I think at least one more book would be needed. GRRM seems to really enjoy the exploration and journey between points. His editor may pull him back from his inclination to add more and more but he’s given himself a lot on his plate to deal with as is.
I agree he wouldn’t be up for a Cliff’s Notes version — for reasons he explains why above and here:
I think this is largely why a) GRRM has taken increasingly longer to get each book out and b) why this story has expanded so much. I think he does have his bare-bones outline but the journey between points has expanded beyond what he’s anticipated.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you for the background material! I’ll respond with some general points, so we won’t need to cover our comments in greyscale.
+ You are of course correct: maesters do not decide, they advise. However, there’s nothing to stop them from advising for courses of action which could also be really convenient to advancing a general policy the Citatel may have, and likewise slanting their advice against courses of action which are inconvenient to any policy from the Citadel.
+ You’re also right, the topic I covered in greyscale is not as definite as I made it sound in my comment. Then again, in Martin’s world, nothing is definite, so (as you noted) we speculate on what hints Martin drops for us.
Still, I hope some material like what I mentioned makes it into House of the Dragon — even if it contradicts my speculation!
Again, thank you for your informative response.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
Of course! It’s a topic I find really interesting because Marwyn’s comment there is…. thought-provoking at the very least 🙂
I do think there is something to it — it’s just hard to know what exactly but I also hope we get more information on that too. I think the maesters have a bigger role in what goes on than how it appears, definitely.
Oh yes, definitely, which I think goes to Dustin’s comment: “And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.” The maesters have great influence over the most major powers in this world. They advise, they teach, they heal, they council, they receive communications, they assist in the raising of the children. That’s a lot of access and power they have.
In a way, it reminds me of this one position I had heard about in a podcast I was listening to: The Groom of the Stool. He was a guy who was basically responsible for assisting the king with his — outputting — activities. Cleaning the pot, wiping, all that fun stuff. While it definitely sounds (and is) gross, this guy would often have the king’s ear and while the king was on his porcelain throne, he’d talk to the groom and sometimes ask his advice. It’s that access which gave this position power and made this position one that was quite sought after. Taking care of the king’s waste was an appealing position 🙂 (Also, it reportedly came with high pay and great benefits)
You betcha!
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNDQzNDI0OGItMWY3Yy00N2Y1LThjOWQtNWQxOWUxZDc5NjM2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjk4ODk0NDQ@._V1_.jpg
💚
OberonYronwood,
Nobody should be offended by a TV show
OberonYronwood,
I disagree with almost all of this especially the Offended part that’s ridiculous
Fire blood87,
“Nobody should be offended by a TV show”
Well, you of most people should understand that people have strong feelings about books, movies and definitely TV shows, for the same reason you are defending seasons 7 & 8, as it is your right, people also have the right to be offended or mad or whatever they feel about the show and express it accordingly.
“I disagree with almost all of this especially the Offended part that’s ridiculous”
You are more than welcome to respectfuly express your disagreence with me.
Agreed. For people to be straight offended and make statements they wasted X years of their life because they didn’t like a certain TV show’s ending, that’s straight toxic and in no way justifiable in my eyes. Worst of the worst when it comes to fan toxicity in my opinion For example, LOST finished 11 years ago and people are STILL berserking on official page and acting enraged if the page dares to even post something LOST related. Not to mention that more than often, these same kind of people will try to embitter first-time-watchers’ journey.
OberonYronwood,
”then episodes 4 – 7 came and there was not emotional pay-off anymore, Yes, Daenerys and Jon were quite sweet and LF was finally killed but they way we got there was so incredibly messy I just didn’t enjoy the result anymore…”
Back to my defense of S7e4 (6/9/21, 4:44 pm above):
I only had a few minor quibbles with “The Spoils of War”:
• I loved the Brienne – Arya sparring scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mWKRXV7gFk
It was especially nice to see Arya in a spiffy new combat suit, instead of the drab Arry outfit or dirty HoBW shmata.
However, as far as “emotional payoff,” it would have been more satisfying if Jon rather than Sansa had been the one to witness the reveal of Arya’s swordfighting skills. That would’ve been an appropriate bookend to Jon’s S1e2 scene (giving Needle and advice to Arya). The sparring scene could have waited until Jon’s return to WF in S8e1. Sansa and LF witnessing the match didn’t really lead to any payoff (for me).* Again, this is a quibble, not a criticism.
• Bronn or Jaime should have fried and died, or drowned at the end. It was a little too unrealistic that both made it out alive. (How they both washed up on dry land far from the battlefield at the beginning of the next episode was never explained.) No big deal. It’s just that surviving kind of detracted from that last shot of Jaime, in full armor, slowly sinking to the bottom of the river.
* More fitting for Sansa could have been something like … [To be continued]
OberonYronwood,
Nicely said, Oberon 🙂
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
“For people to be straight offended and make statements they wasted X years of their life because they didn’t like a certain TV show’s ending, that’s straight toxic and in no way justifiable in my eyes… For example, LOST finished 11 years ago and people are STILL berserking on official page and acting enraged…”
I know you’re a LOST aficionado. I’ve never seen a single episode. I’m conflicted whether I should even consider taking a deep dive into that show.
On one hand, I’m aware that GRRM likened the ending to a fecal surprise being left on his doorstep. (Not that he should be one to complain about the ending of a series, especially with an end to the books (still) not in sight, and an ending to GoT that crashed and burned on the runway instead of “sticking the landing,” in many fans’ eyes.)
On the other hand, after I gushed about Jack Bender’s direction of GoT S6e5 “The Door,” you pointed out that Jack Bender directed the series finale of LOST.
What say you?
Ten Bears,
Here’s some of GRRM’s ironic thoughts on the Lost ending:
“We watched [Lost] every week trying to figure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This better pay off here.’ And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion.” Martin also cites the Lost ending as the type of mistake he fears making with his own show, saying, “I want to give them something terrific. What if I f— it up at the end? What if I do a Lost? Then they’ll come after me with pitchforks and torches.”
Damon’s response to fan criticism of the Lost ending:
One of the things that I think I’ve evolved on is, I started from a very petulant place of, “If you didn’t like/get the Lost ending, then you’re not a true fan of the show.” And I began to realize, “Hey, wait a minute, there’s [other] stuff that I took issue with, but I still consider myself a fan of that.” Wasn’t crazy about the last Harry Potter movie, but I’m a huge Harry Potter fan, and a fan of most of the other movies, and I would be bummed if J.K. Rowling tried to strip me of my fandom. I’ve come around to saying, everybody has a right to saying that they didn’t like the finale, or even if the finale retroactively destroyed the entire series that they loved.”
IMO, this is a very mature mindset from Damon.
His workaround? Dont Finish the books at All lol.
First of all, I couldn’t disagree more about what GRRM said about the LOST ending because for me personally, LOST ending is the most beautiful and emotional episode I’ve ever watched. While it’s my 2nd favorite episode from the series (S5 finale being my favorite), it’s unrivaled in terms of my emotional reaction to it and this comes from a person who quickly gets emotional. Another thing is that there’s a big misunderstanding of LOST ending circling around which also contributes to a lot of people hating it and as I said several times before, these people won’t even want to listen to correct explaination (I was called dumb when I tried to explain the ending on official LOST page). I for one know a lot of people who absolutely loved the ending and the show as a whole. From pretty much everyone I’m still in online friendship contact from LOST FANS UNITE! group, to my father, to my highschool friend Lovro… I know majority of Youtube streamers who watched LOST in recent years loved the ending too. Not to mention “The End” won one of my episode elimination contests in LFU and scored third in another one. So if it’s mere GRRM statements that are turning you off from watching, I would say go for it. LOST ending is far from “universally hated”, divisive at worst and majority of people who “hated” it are the ones from original run while those who watched it later usually ended loving it or maybe only needed a bit of help explaining it (at least those who were on their first watch in LFU group). I would say appreciation for it is growing with “newer generations” of LOST audience.
Then again, I can’t firmly say if LOST would be your taste. That, you would need to decide by yourself. I would say that if you feel you’re not invested in the show after 4 or 5 episodes, it’s not for you. But if you decide to watch it, I would give you this bit of “wisdom”: LOST is the story about the characters. The characters who are “broken” in their lives and are given a chance to start over. Big part of the early seasons are flashbacks to characters’ lives prior to the beginning of the story and it’s important to pay attention to that. The show is heavy on mystery elements, especially in early seasons, mysteries that audience would desperately want answers to and to many people, mysteries are what got them invested to the show in first place… most of the mysteries indeed get explained, some very directly, other more implicitly, and some CAN be explained by what we’re given through story even though we don’t get an outright answer on screen. But mysteries are NOT the story. The story are the characters! The “overaching mythology” is there to serve the characters and not the other way around. That’s something I would tell anyone who would want to watch LOST for first time… so they don’t get into the show relying on mysteries alone because characters are the one that most attention should be paid to in order to get the full meaning of the story.
I’ll post my tribute video here again:
Ten Bears,
In order that I’m not talking only about my own appreciation, here’s also what my girlfriend had to say about LOST and its ending the day after she finished the show herself for first time, way back in August 2016 before we even knew each other (interesting fact, it’s this post where we made our first online contact)
LOST helped me in so many ways. What a spiritual and emotional journey it was! It helped me realize that we are all damaged in some ways. Many people are carrying traces of a horrible past, a past that is forever a part of their conscience. But we all have to learn to let go of that past and move on, however hard it may be. To go past our fears and obstacles. I have always believed that we meet people for a reason. I really think that each person I came in contact with, taught me something. There were many ”black and white pebbles”. The black ones teach us how important the white ones are. I realized that I need the black ones too. Without them, I would have never experienced that feeling of joy and proving them wrong. Proving them that I CAN.
Characters in LOST were very complex and layered, every scene was so detailed. I found myself emotionally attached to them. I felt like I was there. Every episode left me in deep thoughts.
Maybe it is all planned and we are all candidates. We are supposed to be protecting this planet, our only home. Maybe it is all a web of tangled threads. I really hope that each of us chooses the right one. LOST opens up so many philosophical questions. I had so many ”accidental” small encounters that led me to most meaningful and wonderful friendships. It’s just like I was following an ”invisible thread”. When I think of that, ”maybe” disappears and I know that it is all part of a greater plan. It must be. And the final episode? It left me in tears. When Christian said to Jack: ”This is the place that you…that you all made together, so that you could find one another. The most…important part of your life, was the time that you spent with these people. That’s why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone, Jack. You needed all of them, and they needed you.” – that was the part that got me the most. I had immediate flashbacks of my dear family members and friends. And the music… Absolutely brilliant. It brought so much to those final scenes. The episode was over, I turned my laptop off and cried for another 15 minutes… I have never seen a more emotional ending in my life. People that I loved and lost will always be the most wonderful memory. They are the part of me, and their life stories are engraved in the eternity of universe. I am still a bit lost in many areas of my life, but that’s fine. Life is a journey. We spend years and years in search for something, but life often finds us when we least expect it.
If you are reading this now, it means that you came to the very end of this long post! Thank you for reading! It means so much to me. Thank you for being a part of my life!
Let’s spend the time with our loved ones. Because they need us and we need them… And let’s enjoy the unpredictability of tomorrow together, because every tomorrow is unknown and every second is a countdown to something out there – big or small, that is going to happen to us…
Greetings to all of you, my dear fellow LOSTies!
Jovana
Emilia Clarke is apparently making a comic about a single mom whose secret weapon is her period.
No, I am not kidding.
https://cosmicbook.news/emilia-clarke-comic-book-menstruation-arm-pit-hair-powers
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I somewhat agree, Look, I didn’t like season at, at all, at least from a narrative /character perspective (on a technical level it was superb, as always), and I do undertand why people got really upset in the heat of the moment, and even I understand that some of them might still being slightly annoyed by it.
However, wishing D&D the worst things you could possibly imagine or already hating on House of The Dragon is straight up petty and childish, even if I had many many issues about the last bit of the series, I still love the show dearly and I’m incredibly excited for HoTD, to see Westeros again, to go back.
Mr Derp,
That is…. a choice, there is no doubt about that.
Ten Bears,
I completely agree with Arya and Brienne’s scene, it was a nice touch, also, yeah, Sansa was the only Stark sibling who had good reunions with her siblings, which is ironic given how much she wanted to escape from the north.
“Bronn or Jaime should have fried and died, or drowned at the end. It was a little too unrealistic that both made it out alive. (How they both washed up on dry land far from the battlefield at the beginning of the next episode was never explained.) No big deal. It’s just that surviving kind of detracted from that last shot of Jaime, in full armor, slowly sinking to the bottom of the river.”
You perfectly pinpointed the moment where I lost my faith in the old GoT and I knew the new GoT had been born, in earlier seasons both Jaime and Bronn should have died for their actions but nope, the writers sacrified all inner world logic for a cliffhanger.
“* More fitting for Sansa could have been something like … [To be continued]”
Well, now I’m intrigued!
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”Then again, I can’t firmly say if LOST would be your taste. That, you would need to decide by yourself. I would say that if you feel you’re not invested in the show after 4 or 5 episodes, it’s not for you…”
That’s my problem. I’m impatient. I have a short attention span. I doubt I’d make it to the 4th or 5th episode unless the first episode hooked me in within 15-20 minutes. (I’ve written here before that I was seconds away from clicking off the remote about fifteen minutes into S1e1 of GoT … when the 🎯 scene piqued my curiosity.)
Is the Lost pilot episode really good?
Mr Derp,
Awn, thats very bittersweet to read, Although, to be completely honest, the ending points were fine, it was just the way we got to the finish line that I find “not well executed”.
LOST pilot is actually split in two episodes “Pilot part 1” and “Pilot part 2” and are in fact universally acclaimed episodes. I can say for myself that “Pilot part 1” is incredibly intense episode in my opinion, “Pilot part 2” is a bit more character-focused but no less good in my opinion…. both episodes well introduce us to the “mystery atmosphere” and I think they’re excellent opening episodes in order to make someone invested into the show. But I would say episodes 3 and 4 are truly the ones that introduce us to the “formula” of the episodes in terms how how characters get explored. But if you’re worried Pilot episodes would bore you… they’re certainly very intense episodes and if you would find them boring, then I think the show would simply not be your taste. For me personally though, it was episode 4 that truly gave me “chills” and that one is very character-focused without a lot of actual story.
If you are interested in taking the plunge, I personally found the pilot episodes pretty engaging — especially for the time. I got into it circa 2007 because my best friend at the time described the pilot to me as “like a movie”.
Albeit, Lost premiered in 2004 but there you go 🙂 I think they did have a solid start and it was innovative for the time.
OberonYronwood,
I wrote. “Sansa and LF witnessing the [Brienne + Arya] match didn’t really lead to any payoff (for me).*
….
* More fitting for Sansa could have been something like … [To be continued]”
—————
You replied: ” “* More fitting for Sansa could have been something like … [To be continued]”
Well, now I’m intrigued!”
———————-
• In general, I thought the show was setting up Sansa and Arya’s reunion and eventual reconciliation in S7, to include some comparison of their common or parallel experiences. Even though they’d been separated ever since Ned’s blunder in KL in S1:
-They both had been protected and saved from death by the unKnight, Sandor Clegane.
– They both got beaten and punched in the stomach by Meryn F*cking Trant.
– They both had been traumatized by witnessing their father’s beheading, and their brother and mother’s murder at the RW – Arya from witnessing Frey goofballs parading Robb’s decapitated body, and Sansa from learning the details about what happened. [See the Sansa & Tyrion S4e1 scene linked below.]
• In particular, I really thought the show was going to tie in the cold open to S7 (Arya’s wine-tasting soirée with the Freys) with Sansa’s S4e1 scene and her S7 discovery of Arya’s facemask satchel, not only to show how Sansa was initially freaked out by her little sister’s lethal new hobbies, but as a means of demonstrating Sansa’s powers of deduction, i.e., that she was “smart.”
…………..
S4e1 Sansa & Tyrion
Traumatized Sansa distraught over the murder of her mother and brother at the Red Wedding and the desecration of their corpses
at 1:12 – 1:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw5CJ0VX4U4
Lemme find another clip and try to explain what I mean. (Sorry for the delay.)
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I’ll watch your Lost tribute video – assuming it’s not full of “spoilers.”
Ten Bears,
My tribute is mostly a compilation of hugs and emotional moments between characters themselves. It shouldn’t be spoilerish because it doesn’t really focus on story.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
All I really know about “Lost” is that
Oh, and two of the main cast members were Terry O’Quinn, who was also in one of my favorite movies “The Cutting Edge;” and Evangeline Lilly, who I liked in “Ant-Man.”
I’ll have to check to see how many total episodes of “Lost” aired before I even think about “binge watching” it.
“House Of The Dragon” will more than likely have to coast on GOT brand recognition to get off the ground. But it has to stand on it’s own two creative feet. It needs its own narrative voice, character development and storyline. If it doesn’t…crash and burn is one possibility we may have to entertain. This will be especially relevant once Warner Media is sold by AT&T to Discovery Inc., a parent company with a very different philosophy and mentality. Underperforming, overly-expensive shows, maybe a thing the new would-be overlords might not take kindly to or tolerate for long, especially in the now cutthroat streaming wars.
So how about the “divisive” GOT ending stays away from “House Of The Dragon” which will need to find it’s own way…GOT made it’s own path and carved it’s own place into the very selective pantheon of great fantasy.
Ten Bears,
There’s 114-121 LOST episodes overall… depending on whether you get season finales and S6 premiere in their original 90-minutes form or if you get them in split form (two 45 minutes long episodes). I have 116 of them because I have S3 and S4 finales in split form, while having S1, S2, S5 and S6 finales and S6 premiere in their original 90 minutes form (S6 finale is actually 105 minutes long though)
Ten Bears,
In general, I thought the show was setting up Sansa and Arya’s reunion and eventual reconciliation in S7,
Why? Martin has said he created Sansa to have conflict within the Starks, who would be otherwise too altogether too perfect in their agreement. It would be hard for Arya to ‘reconcile’ with a character to whom she’d never been conciliatory, especially as said character had been created especially to be in conflict with her. (Arya and Sansa had ever exactly one point of agreement: that Father should let their family stay in King’s Landing. How’d that work out for everyone?)
Still, it would be fun to imagine them comparing experiences:
“No one had any respect for Sandor, but he saved my virtue from a mob in King’s Landing.”
“Yes, it was important for a Northern Lady like yourself to go pure to her marriage-bed with her proper Northern husband, so he could show her our ways, unbothered by Southron knowledge.”
“Still, he was a valiant knight after all. He should have had our respect.”
“After Brienne beat him half to death, he begged me to give him the other half. I refused and walked away, leaving him to die alone in as slow, painful, and hopeless a death as the Old Gods and the New could muster.”
[…]
“I avenged our House by killing Walder, and every other Frey involved in the Red Wedding.”
“Tyrion told me old Walder Frey wouldn’t even use his own chamber-pot without prior written permission from Tywin Lannister. Did you ever have a chance to kill Tywin?”
[…]
“I use magic to kill our enemies.”
“Father always said all magic belongs beyond the Wall. When are you leaving for Castle Black?”
😉
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
85.5 total hours of “Lost”?
5,127 minutes = 85.45 total hours of Lost.
3 1/2 days of binge-watching straight through with no sleep or interruptions….That would be quite an investment of time.
Maybe at some point I’ll check out the series premier and see if it reels me in before my itchy trigger on my remote clicks off the TV.
I hate to admit it: I will probably give HotD a short fuse as well. If I’m restless halfway through the pilot episode (e.g., if it’s coming off like a note-for-note, The Force Awakens-style retread of GoT), I may change the channel or do the dishes.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
”Why? Martin has said he created Sansa to have conflict within the Starks, who would be otherwise too altogether too perfect in their agreement…”
Forgive me. I wasn’t clear. I imagined the sisters would have conflict, before resolving it in a way that reflected Sansa’s intelligence and a new-found appreciation for her sister’s…unique skills.
It would not have involved that ridiculous LF stolen letter “plan.” And for that matter, it would not conclude with a trial by ambush of LF, facing “charges” he should have easily talked his way out of instead of folding like a cheap suit.
I’ll try to explain what I had in mind…
Yes, that’s the starting point for the characters’ relationships, but them being changed by their experiences and reconciling is the dramatic endpoint of that (hence Ned’s “sun and the moon” comment in the first book).
The show flubbed this completely and had all the character stuff happen offscreen, but that’s a whole other matter.
More fun with Arya & Sansa “reconciliation” dialog:
“Aunt Lyssa told me what happens … when a person … goes through the Moon Door. Then she accused me of betraying her, and dragged me by my hair to that door. I thought she was going to throw me through it, but at the last, she relented. And then — and then — she … she went through herself! I prayed to the gods for weeks, for her and for me, but nothing could take from my eyes the sight of her just … just … falling and falling and falling (sobs). What did you do when you heard Aunt Lyssa had died?”
😉
Ten Bears,
I think the problem between LOST showrunners and the TV network that you’re refering to is that the showrunners eventually wanted to set up a firm end date so they could properly outline the story for the rest of the seasons while the ABC network wanted the show to go on for as long as it would be popular without an end date being set in place. This happened during early S3 run when the wrters really wanted to have an exact number of remaining episodes set in place. They even intentionally made a very filler-like episode “Stranger in a Strange Land” in S3 (which is deemed least favorite episode by majority of the audience, myself included) as a warning to ABC network that if they don’t allow them to set up the end date and number of remaining episodes in order for them to firmly plan the rest of the story, these are likely the kind of episodes that would keep emerging. So they eventually negotiated for 48 more episodes post-S3 but instead of making two 24-episode seasons like S1, S2 and S3 were, they opted for three 16-episode long seasons that eventually became S4, S5 and S6. Then another minor complication came in S4 when writers’ strike happened and they had to shorten the season for 2-3 episodes. Instead of 16 episodes, we got 13 episodes with 90-minutes long season finale in S4, with story being a bit condensed in second half into 5 (or 6 if you count the finale as two) episodes. Due to S4 being shortened to writers’ strike, they managed to extend S5 and S6 by the amount of lost episodes, making S5 finale, S6 premiere and S6 finale double-sized episodes.
loco73,
““House Of The Dragon” will more than likely have to coast on GOT brand recognition to get off the ground. But it has to stand on it’s own two creative feet. It needs its own narrative voice, character development and storyline. If it doesn’t…crash and burn is one possibility we may have to entertain.”
I could have not said it better myself
Ten Bears,
“Forgive me. I wasn’t clear. I imagined the sisters would have conflict, before resolving it in a way that reflected Sansa’s intelligence and a new-found appreciation for her sister’s…unique skills.”
Exactly, We all understood that there should be confict between Sansa and Arya, they never saw eye to eye with each other and time and distance could only agravate it, however, at the end of the day, by season 7 both Arya and Sansa had become the extreme versions of who they were in season 1:
– Arya wanted to be a knight and fight like the other men, have a life of adventures and she got that, after being through hell and back, suffering inimaginable pains she became an extremely skilled assasin, capable of the highest level of ruthlessness and sadism.
– Sansa on the other hand wanted to be the Queen for the beauty and glamour of it and yet, as we all know, was already the epitomy of the perfect little lady, well, after being through hell and back, suffering inimaginable pains she became a true Lady, cunning and power hungry, desperate to avenge her family and stablish house Stark as the royal family in the North, with herself being the power behind the Throne as power for Sansa means security, even if sometimes it meant to undermine her brother’s own power, she would scheme and plot as much as she has to (or wants to) to keep the northern crown.
This laid the ground for such an interesting dynamic between both sisters, and we saw glimpses of that, but I feel like the conflict never reached it’s own potential, mostly due to the lack of time, which meant that we watched Arya and Sansa bicker like little girls whilst being manipulated by a cartoonish shadow of what Baelish used to be. quite sad tbh.
Just looking at this talk-back here, the problem is pretty clear: This is a dying franchise and a dozen and a half hardcore nerds posting here spritzing off here won’t change that. The Zeitgeist for GRRM has come…and gone. At best, 2 seasons for any spin-off – then oblivion and some sort of sweet remembrance of the good ole times.
TWoW? Who gives a sh*t?
I thought for a second you said “Who gives a SHIRT”. I love my WotW shirt(s), and I thought maybe you were announcing a giveaway, but no such luck.
I will definitely read TWOW if it comes out one day, but I’m not anxiously waiting anymore. And it doesn’t seem to bug me that much. I’ve enjoyed some of GRRM’s other works. I hate to think of all of the book characters stuck forever, but I rarely think about The Winds of Winter now. I’ll jump all over it though and binge read it, if it does come out one day.
I agree the endings seemed fine although I was disappointed Jon never became king it was fair outcome. I’ll probably spark controversy but most of the hate comes from the staunch Dany fans who felt she would become Queen. I think some of this is purely down to individual bias, I mean go back and watch the entire series and the set up is there and I’d argue well established that she would eventually go mad. People were even predicting this on other forums back around S3 – I read it online and spoke with others at the time. I was also heavily predicting this in S7 and got knocked back by some of the mods on this site (who are extremely knowledgeable) that it wouldn’t happen.
But I agree the ‘how’ had some faults, particularly after the long night there were a number of plot holes and poor execution for Dany’s final descent (the way Missandei was captured and the second dragon killed especially). This was below par for GOT but in my opinion still not as bad as say Dorne in season five or the Beyond the Wall episode.
You said criticism of the final season is based on hate, but then you proceeded to criticize the final season yourself, so it’s obviously not just limited to staunch Dany fans. I personally was never a Dany fan. I always found her entitlement off-putting and I thought she was a hypocrite. You can’t be all about freeing people and ruling people at the same time.
No doubt a lot of Dany fans were probably pissed about the ending, but the majority of the criticism of the final season on this particular site that I’ve personally read has been based on the “how” not the “what”.
Correct and I stand by my statement most of the “hate” has come from a certain segment of the fan base – largely those who expected Dany to win/claim the iron throne. Personally overall I enjoyed S8 more than S7/S5 however I do recognise it had some faults.
I also feel like a lot of the criticism started after the show surpassed the books – see the Shireen burning which many people swore would not happen and yet even GRRM confirms Stannis will decide to burn her.
This site is definitely a safer place where contributors can largely debate the pro’s and cons where as a certain forum dedicated to the books became over ran with negativity some time back – just as one example.
Jon Snowed,
Look, we all had our own predctions and theories for the ending, however, I personally was fine with the ENDING itself, the Starks won and thats fine by me.
It was just the way we got there, it was incredibly rushed and borderline nonsensical:
– Jon went from being a good honrable man trying to do the right thing to Dany’s pet to then murdering her, Mind you, Jon wasn’t my favourite by any means but everything was taking from him as a character, his parentage meant absolutely nothing nor did his previous encounters with the NK.
– Daenerys went mad which would have been fine if it happened throught seasons to make some sense, not ONE episode, heck, two episodes ago she was risking her own life in the battlefield trying to save the entirety of westeros and then boom, she goes full Stalin / Hitler on KL.
– And I would have never thought that Bran, a character that the writers left for one entire season and was hugely underdeveloped would be king but okay, I accept it, but EXPLORE WHY he should be king.
I fully agree there were issues with the execution of the ending (I would call out how everyone but minor characters survived the long night for starters). I’m not in agreement on Dany though the build up is there from the very early seasons and becomes increasingly obvious. She simply didn’t turn on one episode it was building slowly up to that point then it became quick on the final sprint. Look back at her time in Essos for numerous teasers to suggest this was how she was going to end up. Over the last few episodes the last remaining embers which held her madness were removed one by one until there was nothing left to stop it – remember she wanted to burn kings landing in S7?!
Also on Bran it was clear this was communicated to the show runners by GRRM, it was always leading to this, most people don’t seem to like it and I do agree there are some plot holes (if he knew he was going to be king why did he want Sam to tell Jon about his heritage?!) but I don’t feel the execution was that bad.
Jon Snowed,
I think this is pretty limiting. I’ve seen criticism and lack of enjoyment come from various segments of the fanbase, even the casuals — not just from one segment. I, for one, did not care who ended up on the throne and — without wanting to get into it — my issues still stand.
Yes, but I think criticism started even before this — around season 4/5 when the issues surrounding adapting AFFC and ADWD arose. AFFC and ADWD are essentially two sides of the same book and posed significant challenges in adaptation compared to AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS — which were not only far more straight forward (ie. linear) but also far shorter and less complex. I think the book fandom started to turn around this point.
OberonYronwood,
Well, Jon has been willing to sacrifice honour for the greater good before. But he didn’t kill Dany out of the blue or for no reason. I think J kills D does happen in the books as part of the most significant iteration of “the human heart in conflict with itself” — killing a loved one would be probably among the worst things one would face. That said, again, Jon didn’t kill Dany out of the blue — he didn’t want to do it at all because personal feelings were seriously conflicting with his duty to the realm. He couldn’t even bring himself to feel it was right after because of those feelings. However, Dany felt the destruction she did to King’s Landing was justified and wanted to keep it up all over the world. Jon didn’t have a lot of good options — he tried giving Dany another chance, he wanted Dany to take that chance, but (in my best estimation) she became an extremist idealist (utilizing destruction to bring about a “good world”). He also can’t let her burn the world.
And I say “my best estimation” because Dany did seem disconnected from reality in 8×06 with a desire to do what she thought was good but utilizing and justifying mass murder and destruction to get there. I’ve probably spoken my issues on this enough though and people are set in their opinions over this. I wasn’t happy.
I think Young Griff will take on the political rival part in the books. He would be more believable as a Targaryen and he’s claiming to be somebody who was known to exist. I think Jon’s parentage will mean something different in the book and will play more a part in the mystical arena. I don’t think it’ll have much political impact because who — in-universe — is going to buy R+L=J? It’ll sound like totally fake news — especially coming from a known bastard with an already crappy reputation. I think a version of AA/NN will be going on. Not quite like that but I think some key factors will line up.
I feel the same for Dany’s dark spiral and Bran becoming king. Both will still happen but how we get there will feel more organic, I think.
Jon Snowed,
I disagree about Bran, they even took the character out for one entire season, and then they brought him back completely fine but the next season he was an emotionless robot who knew everything and did nothing, at least that’s my opinion.
I don’t know, I was fine with Bran throught the first 4 seasons but it feels like the writers (and George) didn’t know what to do with him).
Adrianacandle,
Oh I completely agree with you when you say Jon will kill Dany, its a full on greek tragedy, just as our dear George likes it, but I wish we had seen a little bit more of that heart in conflict with itself that you brilliantly pointed out.
Also, you mentioned my boy Young Griff and I already got teary eyed, look, I know he and Arianne are soon gonna be a barbecue but I cannot help but LOVING THEM!! I think they will act as the perfect fuel for Daenerys to finally snap: she has been to hell and back, conquered an entire empire and crossed tha narrow sea to just see how her supposed fake nephew sits on her throne, if you add that to the fact that Arianne is not gonna be particularly happy with Quentin’s death, thinking that it was Dany’s fault… we are in for some DRAMA people.
Adrianacandle,
Sometimes it hard to put feelings into words in a way that adequately represents my thoughts. All I know is that I felt a lot of emotion over the deaths of many characters throughout the show, but I have to admit that I felt nothing when Jon killed Dany in 8×6. No emotions whatsoever. I was just happy it was over with. I am genuinely glad it worked out better for others, but that was my instincts telling me that Dany’s descent into madness didn’t work.
I felt genuine emotions over Tyrion discovering the bodies of Jaime and Cersei in the final episode though, so it’s not like I hated everything in the last episode.
I didn’t entirely dislike Jon’s final season, but I do understand why others felt like he was sidelined and turned into Dany’s lapdog. Jon gave as good as he got from Dany in season 7, yet all of a sudden in season 8 there’s this sentiment among their advisors that Dany would eat him alive and Jon wasn’t strong enough to handle her.
Mr Derp,
And that’s fair (re: J&D) ! Honestly, I hate this topic and broached it with hesitation but I think this is one of the bullet points that will be approached differently in the books. I mean, I felt something but I’m only me. I have my own ideas on it and how it’ll go in the books but I guess for me, s8 especially felt like a grocery list of items D&D were checking off as they went.
I’d agree with this.
I agree that Jon felt sidelined especially wrt the AotD. I know we’ll face resistance and arguments on that probably, which is why I try to leave all of this alone for the most part, but these are my feelings too. I sort of felt with the amount of toning down of the magical elements D&D did in the show, this impacted a lot of things, including Jon’s part to play in the story. I feel they shoehorned him into the Young Griff story when I don’t think it really worked.
OberonYronwood,
I think we did get to see some of that conflict because he really didn’t want to do it, he grieved tried rationalizing her actions, but it could have used more fleshing out — like a lot of things. As I said above, I think it’ll be done differently in the books.
And this is where I’ll get into a bit of book spec!
This is how I think Dany loses Dorne. And how I think Young Griff starts winning Westeros. I don’t think Dany will just snap (or I’m hoping she doesn’t) — but I’m hoping she faces her own human heart in conflict with itself. A choice with compelling factors on both sides — and for the reader too. Not her just breaking. Not just her getting angry over power or loss. But sympathetic and relatable reasons on both sides over her choice to burn KL or not.
OberonYronwood,
…[Jon’s] parentage meant absolutely nothing nor did his previous encounters with the NK.
His parentage (and his having been raised by the dim and inflexible Ned and Cat) meant everything. It meant he could not bring himself to marry Dany, even though that would have been the best outcome for everyone. His parentage directly caused Dany’s first despotic act: she ordered him not to tell anyone he was Aegon VI, even though, according to her own logic, she did not have any authority to give him orders.
At Hardhome, the NK watched (ha!) Jon kill a WW with one swing. During the Long Night, the NK made sure Jon stayed far away, and the NK attacked Jon with the one undead asset which could attack Jon from beyond sword’s-reach. This kept Jon occupied, and should have won the battle…
Ten Bears, can you please take it from here? 😉
I personally don’t feel that Jon’s parentage meant nothing, but I would say that Jon’s parentage affected Dany much more than Jon, and I think that’s where some of the criticism comes from.
This was built up for 8 seasons. When the revelation happened in season 8, it wasn’t really something that changed Jon or made him evolve as a character. It was more about Dany’s reaction to it.
So I know somebody else who really enjoys Young Griff and I’ll ask him too — but what draws you in about Young Griff? 🙂 I also know you love Alicent as well and I wonder if I can ask you the same question about her character for you? I just like hearing these kinds of thoughts and I enjoy your posts! In my head, I kind of consider you the resident HotD expert since you’ve brought so much to the boards on that story! 🙂
In the promo shots, I feel Alicent sort of has some Anne Boleyn vibes going on with her costuming and she is a second wife to a king who wants to improve her status but unlike Anne Boleyn,
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
I’m actually quite surprised by my own love towards Jon, I never truly cared for him but I have this feeling that he got deprived from his two key character plot points:
– Killing (or at least fighting) the NK, it was him who knew about him, his sworn enemy (I guess it was Bran but he was too occupied doing… I don’t know, his sister getting raped or something), but then, his sister, who had nothing to do with the NK killed him in a very anti climatic way. I guess you could argue that she had experience with the God of death and such but that to me was a ver weak explanation.
– His heritage, it seemes to be a big deal for everyone until it was time to choose the new king, then they just forgot about him, so much build up for, well, very little.
And again, I’m fine with the ending points, I just don’t happen to like the way we got there.
Adrianacandle,
Oh, well that’s a really really good question. I guess it’s because, for me, Young Griff works as the perfect fuel for both, Daenerys and Jon, as they all have the narrative of the long lost prince who had nothing but came to claim his throne.E
Griff is Young, inteligent, cultivated and has been bred to rule as king, he has been raised to accept that being king is his DUTY instead of his RIGHT, unlike most characters in the series and he seems to be goos hearted, albeit a little impulsive.
Also, his storyline with Arianne and that of his role as a possible King of the Seven Kingdoms seems that it will bring them all nothing but tragedy coming his way, and that makes me quite sad but I’m a sucker for those kind of narratives lol.
I see Griff succeeding in his conquering of both the Stormlands and KL, the Tyrells are overthrown and mostly killed and he takes his place as the Ko7K only to be burned by Daenerys when she comes. I obviously Don’t know how it’s gonna go but I expect something T R A G I C.
In addition to Young Griff having the traditional Targ look and arriving in Westeros as a blank slate, I think this is where his advantage lies.
I think Young Griff works well as Varys’s “power resides where men believe it resides.” Young Griff may well not be a true Targaryen but I imagine people will believe he is this long-lost prince who was hidden away and raised in secret. He looks the part, was raised to act the part, and I believe that’ll win people over. Varys has fashioned Young Griff into the ruler he wants and he probably has been raised with those people skills but yes, in private, I feel he’s kind of immature for his age. Well, relatively speaking in comparison to other younger characters who have lived and seen some serious stuff. I think once, GRRM described Arya as being “older” than most 40-year olds in the story when it comes to emotion. I’d have to find that quote though.
Found the quote! It was from an archived SSM on westeros.org, a report of a November 2000 book signing:
OberonYronwood,
Oh! And thanks for answering these questions 🙂
OberonYronwood,
…his sister, who had nothing to do with the NK killed him in a very anti climatic way. I guess you could argue that she had experience with the God of death…
Not all of the characters in the story were on-screen. The Lord of Light kept Beric alive to save Arya. The Many-Faced God (who may also have been The Lord of Light) had Arya trained to kill the NK. The Faceless Men give ‘the gift’ (i.e. death) from the Many-Faced God. The NK takes this gift away from his victims, forcing them into a form of slavery. Braavos was founded by escaped slaves, and the Faceless Men originated in a secret society which killed slavers in Valeyria. (Jaqen Hagar clearly allows Arya to leave Braavos, even though the Faceless Men could have killed her.)
Arya is also a Stark, and the Starks defend The North. Starks served honorably at The Wall, and in a way, Arya becomes the greatest Stark of them all.
[Jon’s] heritage, it seemes to be a big deal for everyone until it was time to choose the new king, then they just forgot about him, so much build up for, well, very little.
They didn’t forget about him; his status as Dany’s killer was their main problem. After Dany’s short reign in King’s Landing, nobody wanted another Targ’ ruling them, so there was another reason to send him into an ‘exile’ he welcomed anyway.
Yes, I agree with this. They couldn’t elect Jon as ruler otherwise it would’ve started another war. It wasn’t a viable option.
It does beg the question why Greyworm took Jon prisoner at all after Jon killed Dany. Jon’s Plot armor is one thing, but that was a bit of a stretch to this viewer.
I honestly didn’t mind that Arya was the one to take out the NK. That worked for me.
I did find it strange that the White Walker generals did absolutely nothing during the Long Night though.
This! I would always disagree with the statement that it took Dany one episode to “get mad”. While I believe there’s certain “hero gone bad” element in her story, I think big element in her story, which I imagine is “much harder to swallow” for audience, is that she was never as good as we were led to believe. I believe there’s a bit of “unreliable narrator” present in her story… not literally but the way her story conveniently unfolds in Essos, dealing with almost cartoonishly evil characters and such, I think we’re kind of “manipulated” into rooting for her in these circumstances but as she comes to Westeros, it now becomes harder because she’s dealing with characters we got attached to. I firmly believe the character was always darker than we thought, more messed up… a character who desired power and who had this need to be loved by people… or to be more exact, a character who believed was entitled to power and love, entitled for everyone to bow to her. I think a lot of this supposed “her caring for people” originated from this aspect of her. Something I recently got to know for example is that when Daenerys delivered that speech to Dothraki in S06E06, director Jack Bender compared that speech to Hitler’s… and I even remember when episode aired, there was portion of fandom that felt this speech was… unnecessary because it didn’t really advance story or anything like that, it was just Dany showing off. Back then, I thought it was simply a “service to Dany fans”, now knowing Jack Bender’s comment, I’m seeing the scene differently.
I won’t go into details on why I believe Dany was always “less heroic” than we were led to believe because that would require me to write an essay but that’s my firm interpretation of the character.
Mr Derp,
It does beg the question why Greyworm took Jon prisoner at all after Jon killed Dany.
We don’t know exactly how Jon became Grey Worm’s prisoner. Drogon took Dany’s corpse, already at the great height of the throne room, and flew away into a sky filled with ash and dust from the destruction of King’s Landing. (During Dany’s victory speech, which seems to have happened mere hours before her death, parts of King’s Landing are still burning.) Her death might not have been obvious to anyone on the ground. We do know that the presence of the Northern Army was stated as a deterrent to killing Jon. (I doubt the Unsullied were spoiling to fight the Northerners in the ruins of a city none of them even wanted.)
I did find it strange that the White Walker generals did absolutely nothing during the Long Night though.
They were controlling their wights. The wights had the humans completely overwhelmed, so like the senior officers in any competent army, the WW had nothing to do but observe the slaughter. But this fight wasn’t going to be won by soldiers…
(Anyone? Anyone? Ten Bears? Anyone?) 😉
And let’s not forget the White Walkers knew at this point that humans have weapons that can kill them. Why would they unnecessarily expose themselves which could result in destruction of many wights if one of them died?
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
Greyworm knew that Jon had killed Dany (as did Yara) so I’m pretty sure Jon confessed. He did have Dany’s blood on him, was crying, and I doubt he’d lie about something like that.
But I agree with Mr Derp that it is strange Greyworm just opted to take Jon prisoner instead of killing him outright — which is one reason why I think it may go down a bit differently in the books if the books ever see the light of day. Jon seems to be meant to survive the ending.
I also agree with you both that it wouldn’t make sense to try and make Jon king at this point for a number of reasons. Kingslaying is viewed as one of the most vile crimes in Westeros and his exile was a compromise for peace. I think exile was the most merciful option for Jon considering everything. I don’t think his emotional state at this point would make for the best ruler as it was.
As for how the Long Night ends, I have my own speculation on that… if we ever see the books 🙂 But I don’t think Arya will really be involved. Not that I object to her involvement but I also have reservations over how it was done in the show.
Sure, but one could argue their lack of involvement got their NK killed. They’re supposed to protect him too, but they just stood around and watched. It felt like a lot of buildup just for them to fall asleep at the wheel.
But by…. Hot Pie? 🙂
The heat of Hot Pie and the power of his baking melted the ice core of the Night King, turning him into a puddle and with him, all his minions… WF was flooded with demon juice in the months to come. So much water-damaged wood…. Only the crypts survived. Some people drowned off-screen. Very sad 🙁
Adrianacandle,
Hey, that information is only on a knead to dough basis…
I know, that was terrible, but couldn’t resist 🙂
*files away in fun pun box* …. For later + special baking occasions 🙂
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
“At Hardhome, the NK watched (ha!) Jon kill a WW with one swing. During the Long Night, the NK made sure Jon stayed far away, and the NK attacked Jon with the one undead asset which could attack Jon from beyond sword’s-reach. This kept Jon occupied, and should have won the battle…
Ten Bears, can you please take it from here? 😉
—-
… except then the Starship Enterprise beamed down Arya to NK’s precise coordinates, and with one blast from her Valyrian Steel phaser she disintegrated the NK and his entire zombie army.
Then she went on a voyage to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where No One has gone before.
Bran could just tap into his superpowers to tell her what’s West of…oh, nevermind 😉
Have you read Blood of the Dragon by James Hibberd? It confirms in there that GRRM told the show runners that Bran would be King during several days when they planned for when the show will over take the books. They also talked about (may not be in the book) about why Bran initially goes full robot – something along the lines of how he has a ton of information and is trying to come to terms with how to process it.
None of this explains how Bran can see the future however.
Mr Derp,
Really because every single person who hated I read claimed the change they would make is Dany accidentally burning down the city and becoming Queen which takes away the entire point of her story.
Here is a kind of by proxy movie recommendation here…relevant because of the cast…this is “Official Secrets” (2020), starring one Matt Smith, Rhys Ifyns aaaand someone called Conleth Hill aka Varys…oh yeah Keira Knightley and Ralph Fiennes are in it too…
Mr Derp,
Sure, but one could argue their lack of involvement got their NK killed. They’re supposed to protect him too, but they just stood around and watched. It felt like a lot of buildup just for them to fall asleep at the wheel.
The Fist of the First Men, Hardhome, and the Frozen Lake had all been completely one-sided affairs, and at the last, the only reason they didn’t simply slaughter the Magnificent Seven was because they were waiting for Dany to arrive with the dragon they wanted. From the cold open of Winter Is Coming through to the climax of The Long Night, there had been just two minor blemishes, and both because the humans involved didn’t even know how powerful their weapons were; there was no way the White Walker involved could have known, either. A group of White Walkers had, well, just walked unopposed through the great fortress of Winterfell, and right into the Godswood, the humans’ spiritual sanctuary. Bran’s last surviving defender posed no threat, and was easily dispatched. They were on point of witnessing their greatest victory. Why should they believe they were all about to be destroyed?
For a real-life example, the trench line of the Western Front had been static from September 1914 through most of March 1918, when suddenly the Germans punched through, at the juncture of the British and French armies. The British Fifth Army collapsed, and lost a large number of senior officers, as the German infantry over-ran HQ positions in the British rear areas. These German soldiers were ordinary human beings, each carrying ~60 pounds of equipment, running through the blasted open country of No-Man’s Land in the bright morning sun. Yet, they exploited the element of surprise to the extent they were halfway to Paris by the time the Allies stopped them. (The joke, and it’s actually close to being entirely true, was that after years of wartime privation in Germany, the stocked wine cellars and bulging cheese storehouses of the French countryside posed the largest impediments to the German advance.)
Agree on Jon’s parentage. I feel it was built up as one of the great mysteries of the series and was handled extremely well up until series 6 episode 10, after which it seemed to be a bigger topic for Dany rather than Jon – although they did give some insight into Jon’s dilemma it felt more like a plot device to speed up Dany’s descent than the fact Jon is actually the true air and had a big internal struggle on what to do (keep it quiet or claim the throne).
Jon Snowed,
Had R+L=J been revealed earlier in the story, it could well have been a huge dilemma for Jon. (He confesses to Sam that Stannis’ offer of legitimization is sorely tempting, but as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, he can’t get involved in southern politics.)
As the story did actually go, by the time Sam (motivated by spite against Dany) reveals Jon’s true name and lineage, Jon no longer cares. He’s been an elected commander of men, he was murdered for his performance in that role, and once the Army of the Dead have been defeated, he’s ready to be done with it all. In particular, he hates leading men into battle, and that is one of the major elements of a feudal monarch’s job description.
Had he not been raised as a Stark, and not been Dany’s nephew by blood, he might well have married her, both for love and for politics, and given us the “happily ever after” ending which Martin despises. That’s why R+L=J was central to the story; it prevents this, and does indeed precipitate Dany’s latent despotism.
Minor quibble. I’m sure Sam was happy to tell Jon the news, but didn’t Sam reveal this because Bran told him to and not necessarily out of spite? I honestly don’t remember.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
Well, I think R+L=J being revealed to Jon would go deeper than roles and inheritance. Yes, I think it makes sense that Jon would no longer care for being king or for any leadership roles at this point given what you said. I’m not even sure how he’d feel about leadership in the books due to his misery over the position. Marriage (ie. a formal negotiation to enter a legal union per medieval times) was never actually discussed by the two parties it most concerned or brought to them by their advisors but discussed by others around them, with it being written off by Varys. Maybe because it would solve too many plot problems. Incest issues notwithstanding, if it was presented in such a fashion, I can’t see really Jon saying no since it would prevent more war for a claim he doesn’t want but YMMV.
Yet, back to the main reason I wanted to reply: I think this goes down to Jon’s core identity. Everything he’d ever been told himself had been a lie. He made major life decisions based on that lie. He joined the Night’s Watch because spots for bastards were so limited in Westeros and thought it was one of the only ways for a bastard to earn their own place and honour in this world. He withstood harsh, harsh Westerosi prejudice because of that lie. His self-esteem is impacted by that lie. The man he grew up idolizing and loving as his only parent (with some resentment mixed in) is the man who lied to him — for good reason, but that doesn’t change the pain this lie brought on. Ironically, this lie is the very thing that saved Jon’s life but altered his core sense of self since birth.
Yes, I think that’s right.
loco73,
Thanks for this!
loco73,
Keira Knightley…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONaPfzjl8qc
⚠️ Spoilers (Sort of)
I mean Game of Thrones will benefit House of the Dragon in the sense that it was the biggest show in history. Even if only half of GoT watchers watch this show it will be the biggest HBO show by far and probably in TOP 3 biggest shows in the world right now. That’s how huge GoT was.
I think new material will bring new energy to fan base, because we are talking about the same things for more than 2 years now. Nothing happened and nowdays 2 years in pop culture is a lot. No new GoT shows, no new ASOIAF books, no new projects from Benioff & Weiss or Cogman, or someone from the cast… Anything to bring new topic.
But I think things will change in the next months.
Adrianacandle,
Well, I think R+L=J being revealed to Jon would go deeper than roles and inheritance.
I agree, and your second paragraph shows how it would affect him. He doesn’t care to rule Westeros, but he did care very much about being a trueborn Stark, and R+L=J makes him that. He shared his lineage with Sansa and Arya specifically because he was now their trueborn cousin, not their bastard half-brother. (And he clearly meant for them to keep that information within their family.) It’s Martin’s twist on the “secret king” trope: Jon doesn’t care about R+L=J because it makes him the rightful Targ’ heir to the throne, he cares about R+L=J because it makes him a trueborn Stark; that is what his lie-filled upbringing conditioned him to want.
But that’s all private, and has no effect upon the other characters. (Looking back on it now, he could have had a conversation with Tyrion about it, harking back to their first conversation about how dwarves and bastards share some common traits. I don’t know if it would have served the story, or been just fanservice, though.)
He joined the Night’s Watch because spots for bastards were so limited in Westeros and thought it was one of the only ways for a bastard to earn their own place and honour in this world.
And it was also a way for him to demonstrate his Stark blood. His uncle Benjen was a trueborn Stark, and served honorably at The Wall, just as other trueborn Stark men had in generations past. Lord Waymar Royce also went to The Wall, as a younger son who would (presumably because Westeros, like England, has primogeniture) not have an inheritance at Runestone. (I assume Waymar was the NW Ranger giving orders in the opening sequence, although his name does not appear in dialog.) So, families with enough martial spirit might also send trueborn sons to serve honorably at The Wall.
I think that HOTD will bring back a lot of people to fan base and with casual fans returning discourse will be more postive. We already have a lot of those “it wasn’t that bad” takes. Which is just the first step. Also HOTD will bring new watchers to GoT, people who never watched the show will start watching because of marketing hype for HOTD.
I know that a lot of us watched Snyder movies for the first time thanks to the hype around his JL. Or Star Wars back in 2015 thank to The Force Awakens.
I followed those who binge watched the entire show both online and in real life and in general they have a much better response to the show. If HOTD is big enough in the next couple of years those who watched GoT after 2019 will become a huge part of fan base. Not the majority yet, but huge part. And combined with us, old fans, who liked every season, as I said the % of postive people in the fandom will be much higher.
Future is bright for Game of Thrones I feel.
When it comes to the fact that House Targaryen will be destroyed I don’t think that matters. Showrunners Condal and Sapochnik have a job to make us care about these characters not the ruling dinasty. Since this show starts almost 200 years before GoT, we already know that every character will die, but how and when and why is unknown.
So making interesting characters is the major task showrunners have.
I also think that major difference between this prequel and Star Wars and The Hobbit for example is that here we have a completely different cast of characters and different conflict. So this is not about young Cersei or Robert or Ned, it’s about these new people.
So again, characters will make or break this show.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
Well, I don’t remember Jon wanting his sisters to know because this makes him a trueborn “Stark” ever being stated or supported as his motivation. I remember Jon feeling that he owes his family the truth because he said this, just as he felt he owed Dany the truth as Bryan Cogman stated that Jon didn’t feel he could lie to Dany about this either. There’s a part in that scene where Jon looks pained when they refer to him as ‘brother’ and them believing something he now knows to be false. Arya is careful to clarify her brother, not her bastard brother. And I remember him only allowing Sansa and Arya to know on the condition that they never tell another living soul. I don’t think proving he had a trueborn name was driving him here though but rather, a feeling of obligation of honesty to those closest to him. Jon has long accepted his bastard status — thus Tyrion’s words to him in book 1/season 1, as you pointed out.
In the books, and I think this is a theme for all of the characters, I believe part of Jon’s story is about moving beyond that childhood dream to be a trueborn Stark. He turned it down. He finds a different purpose as a unifier. He finds found family. Additionally, R+L=J doesn’t make him a trueborn Stark. It makes him trueborn but with a different name.
And the end of the day, I don’t think Jon is either Stark or Targaryen. I think he’s ‘other’, which is why he may fit in so well among his “found” family — other misfits (like Arya, Sam, his friends in the Watch), other outsiders who he connects with (Tyrion), free folk, etc. And I think this ultimately serves Jon’s role as a unifier, not as an either/or.
Well, in the books, it being something some Starks did wasn’t really stated as Jon’s motivation either. It was so he could earn his own place. His own sort of honor. It’s also noted as one of the few places bastards could rise:
But it’s only really seen as a place of honour in some parts of the North. It’s considered a joke by the rest of the realm. When Jon sees what it really is… that’s where some of his resentment toward Ned seeps in. Jon joined to be a hero, a hero ranger like his uncle but thanks to lack of funding and it being also used as a dumping ground for mistfits and criminals, it’s also serving another purpose as a penal colony. Something Jon was never told about.
There are good men there too (Donal Noye, Jeor Mormont, Aemon Targaryen, Benjen Stark) but it’s mostly the unwanted and criminals populating the grounds now.
I agree with this. The characters and their stories need to made engaging and into fully fleshed-out roles the audience cares about enough to invest in that’ll be a major factor in this show becoming a success or not.
I mean even for me (a hardcore GoT fanatic) talking about GoT became almost boring. Maybe not talking, but arguing. After more than two years since finale I just don’t have energy or will to try to convince someone in something.
I stand by my opinion that 90% of criticism is BS, that people who hate the end points of characters in S8 never understood the story and that they completely missed the point the show and the books were trying to make.
So if it’s boring for me to argue I can only imagine how boring it is for more casual fans, especially since a lot of really bad things happened in real life in the last 2 years so wasting energy online to talk about fantasy show that is finished long time ago is pointless.
That’s why I think having new material makes fandoms better. Next year we will finally have something to talk about.
mau,
”I know that a lot of us watched Snyder movies for the first time thanks to the hype around his JL. Or Star Wars back in 2015 thank to The Force Awakens.”
I stopped watching Star Wars thanks to The Force Awakens. It blew.
I look forward to this! 🙂
Typo fix! Good lord, my missing word errors (keyboard is having major issues but that can apply to my brain as well):
*I agree with this. The characters and their stories need to be made engaging and into fully fleshed-out roles that the audience cares about enough to invest in and that’ll be a major factor in this show becoming a success or not.
What a word salad 🙁
Adrianacandle,
Yeah. People won’t watch this because they care abut history and lore, they will watch to see what happens next with Daemon, Alicent and Rhaenyra. If they make the show right.
Just like in GoT audience watched because they cared about Jon, Arya, Dany and the rest. 90% of GoT audience finished the whole show without knowing almost anything about history, lore, geography… I am sure that 90% of people wouldn’t be able to show Winterfell on a map. That’s why general audience loved 706 and S7 in general. They don’t care about geography.
I think what people in fandoms often forget is how unimportant we really are.
The only fandom that I saw that has this level of self awareness is Eurovision Song Contest fandom lol They know that they are like 5% of the whole ESC audience, maybe even less.
But TV and movie fandoms don’t get this. They don’t understand that 90% of GoT watches don’t even know what Benioff is. City in Denmark?
I am not sure that majority of GoT watchers understand much that happened before S1. That was my experience with every causal fan I met in real life. And I met a lot of them. Even now my good friend is watching the show with her boyfriend for the first time and some of her takes are hilarious. She understands the characters and their relationships and she cares about that. The rest is not important.
I started because of that movie. Hype was everywhere lol
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
I’ve always wondered what would have happened with the reveal of Jon’s true parentage if he had accepted Stannis’s offer to legitimize him:
S5e2 Stannis offers to legitimize Jon Snow as “Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWWOfI4MYes
Would his legitimization be retroactivity voided? I’m not sure how that would work. After all, he never was in fact Ned’s son.
I imagine that not many GoT watchers, especially the casual ones, are aware of the pre-ASOIAF lore and history. Then again, I had only briefly heard of ASOIAF from my friend Kelty years before 2011. Even then, when I watched the GoT pilot, it didn’t register right away that this was the book series Kelty had once told me about. I started the books the following day but it wasn’t until years later that I got into the pre-story stuff 🙂
So I don’t think it matters if the average fan is aware of the story or not. As long as the story and characters are engaging enough to pull viewers in, I think that’s what matters most.
Ten Bears,
I know this isn’t directed at me but it’s boiling outside and I’m in hiding from the evil UVA-emitting sun 🙂
I think this depends on what the public knows or doesn’t know/believes or doesn’t believe. As long as the public either remains unaware or if they don’t accept it, Jon would remain a legitimized bastard. If the public does know and accepts it, then I think it would change Jon’s identity. However, practically, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think R+L=J would be a hard-sell in-universe.
Talking with causal fans is always eye-opening. Because like it or not, the show was made for them, they are the reason why GoT was what it was in terms of popularity.
And whenever I mentioned HOTD to someone in real life(they first heard about this show from me lol) every single person was interested in the show.
And I spoke with a lot of them. So my prediction is that ratings for the first episode will be insane. I think almost everyone who watched GoT combined with new fans that came after 2019 will check out at least the first episode. Then I expect drop for E2 and then it depends on the quality of this show how many people will watch.
mau,
I’m obviously interested in HoTD but I think Nymeria is my favourite candidate for spin-off series 🙂
I agree. If it’s strong enough, it’ll gather its own audience.
The story is written in a way that it’s not hard for this show to stand on it’s own. It’s hard for Star Wars PT to stand on it’s own with younger versions of OT characters and set up for conflict in OT, but here it is really easy.
Connections with GoT are thematic, because this is also show about family and power and civil war for the Iron Throne, but it’s a separate story.
Adrianacandle,
Actually, it was intended as a reply to you. 😉
Oh! Awesome! 😀 I feel better that I didn’t hijack an answer 😉
⚠️ Off-Topic
With the news of the passing of the great character actor Ned Beatty two days ago, I thought I’d re-recommend (his best role, in my view):
“Hear My Song” (1991)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO4rjO4Vl-g
… which co-starred a young Tara Fitzgerald (Selyse Baratheon) in her film debut.
It was both. Bran said they must tell Jon, but Sam didn’t do it until he’d learned Dany had executed his brother and father. In the scene where Sam tells Jon, he’s livid at Dany; much of their conversation is actually about her and the Tarlys.
After telling Jon who his parents were, and how he is therefore the true King, Jon says, “She is our Queen,” and Sam spits back, “She shouldn’t be!”
My own minor nitpick 🙂 The sequence of events went Sam learns Dany executed Tarly Sr and Tarly Jr. Sam leaves and goes outside where he runs into Bran. Bran tells him he must tell Jon about his parentage.
Sam didn’t really decide when to tell Jon. He went to find Jon when Bran directed him and showed hesitancy when Bran insisted he be the one to tell Jon.
Adrianacandle,
Why was Bran so insistent that they (well, Sam) tell Jon?
Thanks for this recommendation!
Adrianacandle,
“Here My Song” is one of my Top 5 All-Time favorite movies. P.S.
Well, the best I can do is pull up those interviews from Isaac Hempstead Wright where he said:
As for Bran’s powers:
Otherwise, I have no answer. To get the plot moving would be my best response.
Ten Bears,
Thanks!
mau,
That is true 90% of people have no clue who the writer or director is they just want to enjoy a show. People like us that consume everything about the show are a very small percentage.
Adrianacandle,
I still can’t figure out why Benjen going to the wall unless he helped Lyanna ran off with Rhygear. The Starks were all but extinct. just my thought that grrm will have him go to the wall cause benjen blames himself for the war.
I think that’s still one of the books’ mysteries yet to be uncovered (why Benjen went to the Wall, what Benjen knows and doesn’t know). According to the ASOIAF wiki, Benjen was born around 267 AC. And according to this timeline, Jon was born in August 283, so I’m supposing that Rhaegar took off with Lyanna around 282 and Ned returned to WF around late 283. Benjen would be around 16 when he joined the Watch, which is undoubtedly young but an adult in their world (Robb was a 14/15-year old king, Jon is a 16/17-year old LC, Dany is a 15/16 year old queen).
However, by that time, Ned had a healthy heir (Robb), pushing Benjen further down the line of succession. Of Ned’s own family, he and Benjen were the last children of their generation. However, Ned and Catelyn do produce five healthy children together — three of which are sons.
I had never seen this before, and thought it was fun! Sarah Millican with Finn, John, and Kristian, must have been about season…4 or 5ish?
You are welcome. I also realized while watching that Indira Varma, aka Ellaria Sand, is in the movie as well. Quite a few former and about to be GOT/HOTD alumni in this film…LOL
Adrianacandle,
I don’t know if Benjen going to the The Wall constitutes a mystery, any more than Waymar Royce going there does. Benjen was neither the first nor second in line for Warden of the North/Lord of Winterfell, and as you noted, after second-in-line Ned had children, Benjen was out of the running. If the Starks couldn’t find a suitable wife for him amongst the other Great Houses of Westeros, then The Wall was an honorable option for a Stark.
Adrianacandle,
”…But here’s my issue with Jon’s lineage. I don’t think Jon’s true parentage will actually play a political role in the books. I don’t see how it can. But I think it will play out in different ways, such as in the mystical realm: the show heavily toned down the magical aspects. But in-universe to most people, Jon’s parentage would be a ridiculously hard sell. There’s no proof. Jon is widely accepted as Ned Stark’s bastard son. He has Ned’s look. The story Ned came up with is far more believable. Bastards are heavily stigmatized, viewed to be wanton, unworthy of trust, and wanting to usurp trueborn claims. If anybody claimed Jon was this secret prince that nobody ever knew existed, it would very well look like a bastard’s trick. Plus, Jon has a bad reputation in-universe: is a bastard son of an alleged traitor and he let in the wildlings. Is also known as an oathbreaker to the Watch.
I think this speaks to Varys’s “Power resides where men believe it resides,” and in the books, Varys is raising…. Young Griff. He’s claiming to be a prince who was known to exist (Rhaegar’s eldest son), he has the right look, he’s arriving with a fresh slate, he was raised to be Varys’s ideal king.
Instead, I think this is Young Griff’s storyline from the books. He’s way more believable as Rhegar’s elder son, has the right look, is the right age, can rally Dorne as Elia’s son, and is a fresh slate.
In the books, I do think Jon is meant to disappear into anonymity and exile. There are a few passages that hint at it. I don’t think his parentage was ever supposed to be this victorious political thing but rather, I think it’s meant to make an impact in the mystical realm in regard to the Others.”
• As you’ve effectively pointed out, it would be hard, in-universe, for the world at large to give any credulity to a claim that Ned Stark’s bastard Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryen, trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and his wife Lyanna Targaryen. The show didn’t address this at all – even the reveal of his paternity to his sisters in S8e4 was cut off, so we didn’t see their reactions (e.g., some amount of skepticism, and curiosity about the proof for such a wild claim – in addition to Bran’s hallucinations… I mean visions of the past).
As I recall from discussions here, there are all kinds of book theories about the existence of some kind of artifact in the WF crypts, or speculation that Howland Reed or Benjen could verify Jon’s true lineage. I don’t know if GRRM has ever hinted – in the books or in interviews – if there will be some proof that R + L = J = AT.
It just seems to me that unlike the show, after all the buildup about Jon’s true parentage it will mean something more than a reason for him to feel that scr**ing his aunt is icky.
• Another thing: As you point out, book! Young Griff will have the “look” and established backstory to contend he is really the secret Targ heir.
For Jon, or an advocate for Jon, to also claim that Jon is really the secret Targ heir would be laughable. It would remind me of the scenes from “The Fifth Element” where an imposter tries futilely to board the space cruise ship by claiming “I am Korben Dallas” (after Korben/Bruce Willis has already checked in).
• You wrote: ”I don’t think his parentage was ever supposed to be this victorious political thing but rather, I think it’s meant to make an impact in the mystical realm in regard to the Others.”
What kind of impact did you have in mind? (Tinfoil answers accepted) 🥶
Fire blood87,
There are some truly famous directors like Nolan that became almost a brand but in general people don’t know and don’t care who made shows, movies or songs that they like.
Benioff and Weiss are more known than average showrunner but far from some real recognition in public. I am sure no one even notices them on the street.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
”If the Starks couldn’t find a suitable wife for him amongst the other Great Houses of Westeros, then The Wall was an honorable option for a Stark.”
Correct me if I’m wrong: I thought becoming a Kingsguard meant you had to give up claims to lands and titles, and forget about having a wife and kids. Yet, everybody (e.g., pre-free fall Bran) seemed to aspire to be a member of a Kingsguard or Queensguard.
I suppose that was considered “honorable” such that celibacy (?) and relinquishing hereditary rights were worth it. (Hard for me to understand. Then again, I don’t live in that fictional universe.)
Perhaps joining the NW wasn’t really considered such a sacrifice?
I don’t have exact specifics figured out but I think it’ll make a difference in the magical arena — which was largely toned down in the show. He’s the child of two powerfully magical bloodlines and as Melisandre tells Jon in ADWD, “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.” I think the conflict with the Others will be resolved much differently in the books, perhaps through negotiation, but I think pertaining to prophecy and the Others, Jon being the child of two magical bloodlines may make the big impact in his role there. Politically, I don’t think Jon was ever meant to embody GRRM’s “The Return of the King” but I think he’s meant to be unsung, a Snow, as I think several passages in the books indicate.
I know that’s not the best answer but I’m not good at theory crafting 🙂 I think I did share my one tinfoil with you that there was a resolution made with/against the Others eons ago but this resolution was finite, which may be why the Others are coming again.
Jon’s also a powerful warg in the books — as are Rickon and Arya both. Arya can warg cats even. They weren’t wargs in the show (only Bran) but I believe GRRM said Nymeria’s large pack would pay off somehow but I’d need to find that quote 🙁
I suppose. I sometimes think aloud in my answers 🙂 It is a mystery for some over why Benjen went to the Wall. As a trueborn, Benjen did have some more options. He could have had a family and held a castle in his brother’s name but yet, opted to go to the Wall at 15/16. You’re right that the Wall is seen as an honourable calling among the Stark family though.
But I guess this goes to Ten Bears’ comment:
I think images of honour and glory played up the appeal of these lives — being a brave knight or hero from the stories (and for kids and young teens, they don’t really know what they’re giving up by opting out of having families, as Benjen had said in the books). I believe Jaime joined in part so he could be near Cersei and wouldn’t have to be betrothed to another as he would have been otherwise because he’s Tywin’s heir.
Adrianacandle,
”I think the conflict with the Others will be resolved much differently in the books, perhaps through negotiation, but I think pertaining to prophecy and the Others, Jon being the child of two magical bloodlines may make the big impact in his role there…”
• For a while, I thought maybe Jon would volunteer to become a book! Coldhands/show! Benjen half-human, half WW/Wight hybrid as a means of communicating with or assuaging the WWs. That didn’t pan out – on the show at least.
⚠️ (Tinfoil alert) Re: negotiation. What if the Others’ peace proposal = Annual Craster Baby Exchange? Let’s say, 100 male babies a year? Does Jon the Conciliator make the deal?
I was aware of sort-of-similar theories positing that Jon himself becomes the new Great Other in an exchange.
As for negotiation, yeah, maybe something like that but perhaps not requiring 100 babies a year (that may be too bleak even for GRRM’s “better world”) but yeah, something like that! Maybe Jon is an prophecy figure but instead of a flaming sword, his half and half magical bloodline enables him to be that bridge between the Others and humanity — as he has been a bridge between various, disparate factions of angry humans.
I don’t know — just spitballing here 🙂
Oh cool! Thanks for this too!
Hey, Young Dragon? You still around? I’ve got your Musical Interlude teed up and ready for you. 😄
Young Dragon,
”I know absolutely nothing about the events surrounding the civil war or the characters involved, so I’ll have to speak hypothetically. Let’s say Rhaenyra Targaryen is a sympathetic character that you can’t help but fall in love with. Knowing the fate of House Targaryen won’t stop me from connecting with that particular character, because she’s more than her House…”
Rank speculation on my part about Rhaenyra in HotD:
I’ve been thinking that Emma D’Arcy must have blown away the casting director and showrunners in her auditions, and she may very well turn out to be one of the breakout stars of the show.
• I would imagine that HBO and the producers would have wanted a recognizable name with a substantial resume to attract fans. Olivia Cooke has such credentials. Emma D’Arcy didn’t.
• With so many young actresses who would have likely been vying for a lead role on a GoT prequel, would have been easy to select an actor in the appropriate age range (someone like, for instance, Anya Taylor Joy) to play a Targ Princess. On the other hand, it would be quite a risk to cast an “unknown” with just a few credits to her name.
• Therefore, I have to assume Emma D’Arcy knocked the socks off the casting folks and showrunners to snare such a significant role.
There are times when unknown actors are preferred over known names. Many of those cast in GoT were unknowns (or not well known), especially the child and young adult actors. The only name I was familiar with personally was Sean Bean (but I admit I hadn’t heard of Olivia Cooke before HotD either).
One advantage is that, if the series is successful, the association with the show that was the actor’s “big break” is more likely to stay with the actor’s name (getting free mentions in articles and write-ups as the actor progresses through their career). Another advantage is the casting show doesn’t have to compete with existing preconceptions the audience may have of that actor due to previous, well-known roles.
Just say season 8 was rushed and not fast paced. He’ll be here in a heartbeat.
Adrianacandle,
All true. But isn’t there more pressure on HBO for HotD to be a hit right out of the gate as compared to GoT? (Again, I was just speculating about Emma D, with nothing to back it up. 😁)
I don’t know about more pressure (I don’t have anything to back up how much pressure is on HotD so I don’t feel I can make an adequate comment on that) — all shows have money invested in them and pressure to be successful — but I think they have higher hopes due to a previous association with GoT.
GoT may be enough to get people curious about checking its spin-offs out but I don’t think big names in and of themselves would be enough to keep viewers around if the story is not engaging enough. That’s what I think it really comes down to — fully fleshed out characters and engaging storylines viewers want to invest in. If people aren’t pulled in, they’ll leave — big names or no :/
Ten Bears,
…it would be hard, in-universe, for the world at large to give any credulity to a claim that Ned Stark’s bastard Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryen, trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and his wife Lyanna Targaryen.
Sam got this information from the High Septon’s diary, originally kept in the Citadel. If it was returned to the Citadel, then the Maesters would give credulity to the claim, and Maesters are trusted advisers to every Great House.
Once this information becomes known from a trusted source, it can be used to mobilize support around Jon against Dany, even if Jon does not want to be king. So long as Jon lives in the Kingdoms, he’d be a focal point for opposition to Dany. (And Dany wasted no time in ensuring she’d have plenty of opposition to her rule.)
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
Jon’s birth (or that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child) was never documented in the diary, only the annulment and (I believe) the marriage.
Even if a child was documented, it’d be a hard sell on Jon being that child. His birth was not witnessed, he’s widely accepted as the bastard son of an alleged traitor, Jon looks nothing like a Targ but a mini Ned (per book description), bastardy in Westeros comes with severe stigma – one of those stigmas being that bastards are liars and seek to usurp trueborn claims. I think it’d look more like a “bastard’s trick” than legit.
Plus, a high septon’s diary in the books may be open to speculation and mistrust as well. Maesters don’t really accept documents as fact without speculation. There are quite a few obstacles to R+L=J being accepted as a truth in-universe.
P.S. Ten Bears, I’ll reply to your comment re COVID from the other thread in an email later! 🙂
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
<em?”Sam got this information from the High Septon’s diary, originally kept in the Citadel. If it was returned to the Citadel, then the Maesters would give credulity to the claim, and Maesters are trusted advisers to every Great House.”
That’s only half of the equation. (And as much as I hate to mix and match show! canon and book! canon, let’s assume the books follow the show’s High Septon’s diary story.)
The diary only established Rhaegar’s quickie annulment + marriage to Lyanna. It did not say anything about Rhaegar knocking up Lyanna or her giving birth.
Plus, the Jon Snow = Aegon Targaryen revelation would presuppose that the “honorable” Ned Stark scammed his bff Robert, his wife, and the rest of the realm by claiming that Jon was his bastard son from a wartime dalliance. So the public at large would have to accept that Ned Stark pulled off the second-biggest hoax in history.
If the only “proof” of Jon’s true paternity is BirdBrain’s hallucinations, he’d really have to demonstrate to everyone’s satisfaction that his powers of time travel are genuine, and that he doesn’t have some personal agenda in designating his half-brother or cousin as presumptive (Targ) heir to the throne.
After all, supposedly Jon has “Stark” physical traits, and none of the Targ characteristics, eg silver hair and violet eyes.
So, what acceptable evidence could there be that Jon Snow is in fact the offspring of Rhaegar & Lyanna – both of whom are conveniently dead? Would the realm accept the word of Ned’s buddy Howland Reed?
I don’t know the answer.
Adrianacandle,
Oh sh*t! I see you beat me to it. (That the HS diary only establishes half the equation, and nothing about a pregnancy or a baby.)
I don’t think one man’s word would be enough, especially considering the amount of marks Westeros has against Jon.
I’ll be talking mostly books here 🙂
It’s been observed by some characters that maesters aren’t exactly pro-Targaryen in the books. And said characters (like Dustin) also have suspicions of the maesters’ agenda. Either way, I don’t really see the maesters (or Westerosi nobles) being inclined to support Jon Targaryen, even if (by some miracle) they did believe it.
Jon’s a known bastard, oathbreaker, the individual who let their thousands-year-old enemy through the Wall (and who had given the appearance of breaking NW neutrality and trying to rally the wildlings to defeat Westerosi lords — the Boltons), a warg (magic, which the maesters hate). All would be grave marks against Jon and I think would make R+L=J extremely difficult to swallow for the Westerosi.
As it is, the Blackfish believes Jon being elected Lord Commander was a Lannister scheme and Jon is known as “The Black Bastard of the Wall” as far as Braavos. His rep isn’t… stellar.
The accepted story is Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and raped her before she was killed. Ned’s own story about his newlywed self finding comfort on the road as a young man and bringing the resulting child home is not only widely accepted but I’d also say it’s more believable than a bastard son suddenly being claimed as a long-lost Targaryen prince who has conveniently popped out of nowhere. Especially when another — Varys’s claimant Young Griff — is already claiming to be a long lost Targ prince and YG has the Targ look while also claiming to be a child who was known to exist with a documented birth.
Further, I think it’s hard to change societal preconceptions and beliefs, even if they aren’t the (actual) truth. Jon has a terrible reputation dogging him in-universe and it may get worse. We as the reader know better but his actions do appear to play into the stigma of bastardy to other characters in this world. He lets the enemy in, appears to rally them to not only break his vows but usurp Winterfell from a Westerosi house’s hold (where the Boltons were granted WF by the crown), he’s known as an oathbreaker and if he leaves the NW, a NW deserter.
Unfortunately, it’s not just Dany and Jon’s reputations that have suffered in Westeros due to prejudice and unflattering reports, we know Jaime’s has — and even Sansa’s has as well. It’s believed she’s a kingslayer who killed Joffrey via sorcery — two bad marks against her as kingslaying is considered the most vile crime in Westeros and sorcery is viewed with deep mistrust. She’s married to a hated Lannister, Tyrion. Her association with Littlefinger is getting deeper and deeper. Robb names Jon his heir specifically to avoid WF from going to Sansa for fear it’ll fall into Lannister hands (and he also believes Bran, Rickon, and Arya are dead — which we know isn’t true).
I think this kind of is a theme in GRRM’s stories, it appears. Perception vs. reality.
So that’s a really long answer, needlessly long I suppose 🙂
I myself didn’t see this message until after I posted!! ^^;;
Ten Bears,
I wrote: “Another thing: As you point out, book! Young Griff will have the “look” and established backstory to contend he is really the secret Targ heir.
For Jon, or an advocate for Jon, to also claim that Jon is really the secret Targ heir would be laughable. It would remind me of the scenes from “The Fifth Element” where an imposter tries futilely to board the space cruise ship by claiming “I am Korben Dallas” (after Korben/Bruce Willis has already checked in).”
Here’s that scene…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blzmPZ7ZNJc
“I am Korben Dallas!”
Adrianacandle,
There are quite a few obstacles to R+L=J being accepted as a truth in-universe.
Thanks for the corrections; you’re right, only Rhaegar’s marriage to Lyanna was recorded by the High Septon in his diary. Just that much throws the entire “abduction and rape” story into doubt, which has long been the accepted version of events, so R+L=J would have an even tougher time getting accepted as the correct version. But that’s not really the issue.
As Varys noted, power resides where men think it does. (As you know, in the books, he’s prepping Young Griff to be the “true” Targ’ heir.) It the story as told by the show, it really doesn’t matter if anyone truly believes R+L=J. In Westeros, as with most feudal systems, there is no peaceful way to transfer power from a living monarch without that monarch’s consent. It has to be a fight, and for that, the dissenters need someone with a claim to the throne, even if that person is a mere figurehead. That is the danger R+L=J poses to Dany, and it remains a threat to her rule, whether it is true or not — or if Jon wants the throne or not. His very existence can be used by anyone who seriously opposes Dany’s rule.
The best way out would have been for Jon to marry Dany, a personal and political union which could have brought lasting peace to Westeros. But Jon was raised as the son of the dim and inflexible Ned, and thus Jon was unable to commit what he saw as incest, not even with a woman who probably can’t bear children anyway. Like Ned, he put his inflexible personal beliefs ahead of the well-being of pretty much everyone else. In Ned’s case, the War of the Five Kings rained ruin across huge swaths of Westeros, right when everyone needed to prepare for the longest Winter in memory. In Jon’s case, almost every civilian in King’s Landing died horribly, and only Arya’s off-Westeros education enabled her to escape alive. This is somehow better than marrying Dany, being a good adviser to her, and going on long ‘hunting expeditions’ beyond the Wall whenever he wanted?
Those Starks, they ain’t all that bright. 😉
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
I think it does matter because why would they support Ned Stark’s bastard son?
This will be an issue in the books with Young Griff as the claimant but this is why R+L=J needs to be believed. Jon also abdicated, which is a thing he can do. Sparking a claimant war wasn’t exactly a wise thing for Sansa to do, especially after the North’s forces had been even more depleted.
I don’t think this is quite fair. First, Jon didn’t know what was going to happen but more importantly, marriage (ie. a formal negotiation to enter a legal union per medieval times) was never actually brought to Jon or Dany by their actual advisors or discussed as a solution. There was a conversation by everybody else about this topic except for the two parties it actually concerned. And even there, it wasn’t thought of as a solution.
It was then written off by Varys — which seemed to be the writers dismissing the possibility. Jon isn’t Dany’s advisor, he’s her Warden of the North and commander of the Northern forces. Tyrion is Dany’s advisor, Varys is Dany’s advisor, Davos is Jon’s advisor, they all brought it up — but it was dismissed between Tyrion and Varys without even coming to Jon and Dany about it.
So no, I don’t think what ended up happening or a claimant war was more appealing to Jon than marriage. He was hesitant to resume their lovers-lovers relationship — that’s not the same thing as saying no to a marriage, which is far more like a business arrangement per medieval times. Jon has sacrificed far more (ie. his life) for the good of the realm. Incest issues notwithstanding, if it was presented in such a fashion, I can’t see really Jon saying no since it would prevent more war for a claim he doesn’t want but YMMV.
The reason why I think marriage wasn’t presented as a solution is because I think it would have solved too many plot problems needed to push Dany to the edge by 8×05.
D&D had certain points to hit in a very limited timeframe and I think they needed those problems to bring about the end with the adaptation they had included.
I’m not entirely blaming D&D, they had a limited amount of time to get a ton of stuff done and hit certain endgame bullet points in a specific timeframe. They don’t have the freedom to add more and more time — the practical constraints of television, the needs and desires of actors and crew, their own needs — GoT is a very demanding, intense show to do and they had been doing it for 10 years at this point. And GRRM also kind of left them twisting in the wind. They were good at adapting material and that’s what they signed up for. However, I don’t think either D&D or GRRM anticipated they’d be writing the ending to Game of Thrones which is a horse of another colour entirely from adaptation.
Further, it’s not like what happened is at all what Jon wanted. Per Kit Harington and the scripts, a part of him is destroyed by killing Dany. Being exiled to the Watch is not a joyous thing for him. Jon can’t see the future. Bran can… well, kind of… and seemed to have put pieces in place so certain events can unfold. Jon didn’t do that.
Tensor the Mage, Enjoying All The New Material,
”Jon was unable to commit what he saw as incest, not even with a woman who probably can’t bear children anyway.”
Did he ever profess any repulsion over the “incest” thing? I don’t recall that.
He could’ve just had her put on a red wig and tell him he knows nothing…
Adrianacandle,
”Sparking a claimant war wasn’t exactly a wise thing for Sansa to do, especially after the North’s forces had been even more depleted.”
Yeah. Not only that, but it put Jon at (greater) risk, and in “the fog of war” you never know how things will turn out. (I still say that if Jon considered Dany “his queen,” he should have abided by her wishes and kept his big mouth shut. As it turned out, Dany was right. He was wrong.)
Ten Bears,
I think Dany knew incest was the issue when Jon stopped their make-out session in 8×04 because when he stops, she says: “I wish you’d never told me. If I didn’t know, I’d be happy right now.”
There’s also this from a longer version of the 8×05 script:
So I think Dany was supposed to know but it could have been better vocalized on screen. Per the writers and KH, incest was Jon’s issue:
Dany was right and Jon was wrong, you’re right, and I think Jon’s mistake was trusting Sansa. Jon kind of has blinders on when it come to those he cares for (which is probably why Dany could see the situation far more objectively where Jon was naive) and he was certain he could trust Sansa with the truth and in her vow made in the Godswood to keep his parentage secret. In the finale script, it’s revealed he can’t truly forgive Sansa for breaking that vow. I think Jon’s other mistake was that he thought there was a third option — he thought he, Dany, Arya, and Sansa could all live together with the truth, as he told Dany. He also trusted Dany with this information as well.
But I wish Jon had kept silent too. Dany ended up being right.
Adrianacandle,
”…but it could have been better vocalized on screen. Per the writers and KH, incest was Jon’s issue.”
Thank you for the quotes by the showrunners and KH. You’re right: It could have been better vocalized on screen. I did not sense any squeamishness on Jon’s part based on the dialogue and the acting. Oh well. 🤷🏻♂️
Ten Bears,
I did sense some incest issues on his part but I also thought incest might be an issue for Jon going into season 8. In the books, though, I’m divided over how much of an issue it’d be for him. Avuncular marriage isn’t forbidden by the Faith or Westeros per The World of Ice and Fire:
But it is denounced as vile in the site of the Old Gods as far as the wildlings are concerned, which is why they steal mates from afar because even going for members of their own clan is considered too close for comfort.
And it depends on how Ned raised the kids. In treating them all like eternal tamagotchis and not making any future plans for them until Robert waltzes his way into Winterfell, Ned wasn’t exactly setting up suitors for any of his kidlings — blood related or otherwise.
Adrianacandle,
…”I think Jon’s other mistake was that he thought there was a third option — he thought he, Dany, Arya, and Sansa could all live together with the truth, as he told Dany. He also trusted Dany with this information as well.
But I wish Jon had kept silent too. Dany ended up being right.”
Ned kept his trap shut and told no one for how many years? I’ll bet he was tempted to confide in Catelyn and hope “they could all live together with the truth.”
Jon should’ve emulated Ned. Wasn’t there a book quote by Ned – an internal monologue – something about how “some secrets are too dangerous to [something]’?” I think there’s also an old saying that “discretion is the better part of valor.”
How could he not realize that opening his yap meant the “secret” was no longer a secret?
Ten Bears,
No, never. He never thought telling Catelyn was an option — and this was Jon living a lie, not Ned. Jon bore the major brunt of this lie. Ned’s lie put a stain on his honour and caused some strain in his marriage.
And this was a different situation.
Unlike Ned with Catelyn (who was still a stranger to him when he came home with Jon), Jon was certain he could trust Sansa with the truth and in her vow made in the Godswood to keep his parentage secret. He grew up with her. Meanwhile, as Ned got to know Catelyn, he didn’t know if Catelyn would sell out Jon to protect her kids. There’s a passage saying he hoped he’d never find out. Conversely, Jon trusted Sansa not to betray his secret or sell him out. That’d put Jon in danger, as well as the entire North.
Ned never thought there was a third option and it’s Jon, not Ned, who had to carry the brunt of that. I’m never going to argue that Jon should apply for Mensa but he truly — due to emotional attachment — thought he could trust Sansa to keep his confidence secret and her vow to him made in the Godswood. If Jon could see ahead and see that Sansa would beak her vow, I doubt he’d tell her.
I’ll search for that passage but the show isn’t the books. I think they needed to fire this gun though since they merged the Jon Snow/Young Griff plotlines in the adaptation. I think the merge was awkward for many reasons.
Well, if I trust the person I’m confiding to and they make a vow to me in the most sacred part of their faith, yeah, I trust it will be kept a secret. I won’t tell my sisters something and swear them to secrecy in anticipation that it won’t be a secret anymore.
But again, nobody is arguing Jon should apply for Mensa 🙂
Adrianacandle,
…marriage (ie. a formal negotiation to enter a legal union per medieval times) was never actually brought to Jon or Dany by their actual advisors or discussed as a solution.
Jon’s parents did none of that, either, even though one was Heir to the Throne and the other was a very eligible young lady from a Great House. Dany didn’t do any of that before her betrothal to Hizdahr zo Loraq. As you have eloquently shown, it was Jon’s reticence alone which precluded the marriage.
Sparking a claimant war wasn’t exactly a wise thing for Sansa to do, especially after the North’s forces had been even more depleted.
I agree completely, but Sansa had learned her whole art of ruling from Cersei and Baelish. The former reacted emotionally to everything, forever piling up a larger body count and longer list of enemies, and the latter was a resentful, sadistic pyromaniac who got lucky for awhile. Sansa hit the jackpot on the very first try, and then sensibly retreated to the safety of The North.
I don’t think this is quite fair. First, Jon didn’t know what was going to happen…
You’re right, it’s not fair, but then, neither is real life, either. We all have to make decisions, sometimes big and irrevocable ones, often on insufficient knowledge, and with not enough time. Ned and Jon were each given a simple course of action, which, if followed, could have brought peace to the realm. Instead, “The Honorable Lord Eddard Stark” betrayed the final request of his dying friend, the King because he believed a story that Cercei (for all Ned knew) could simply have fabricated out of spite*. Jon could have married the young blonde hottie who was in love with him, and spent years touring Westeros on dragonback. But, like his supposed father, he was too ‘honorable’ (i.e. narrow-minded) to make it work.
*You gotta love Ned’s incredibly insightful deduction that Joffrey wasn’t Robert’s son because all of the Baratheons have “hair of black,” and all of the Lannisters are golden. Hey there Ned, how many years did you just spend, raising your dark-haired Targ’ boy?
Adrianacandle,
“Jon was certain he could trust Sansa with the truth and in her vow made in the Godswood to keep his parentage secret. He grew up with her.”
Cue KotV concealment debate. (Just kidding.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
The topic of marriage never came up between Jon or Dany, nor was it ever presented as a solution to them by their advisors (or by the writers). We can speculate on what Jon’s response would be to that but he was never presented with this option canonically.
As for what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, we have none of that story. We only know they got married and had a kid. We don’t even know how that all came about.
Marriages in and of themselves in this world aren’t necessarily intimate or even loving. They can be done for love but it’s very rare. Love would be far, far from typical and marriage resembled more of a business contract and negotiation, not an intimate or loving union. Jon was hesitant to return to their physical relationship, which had no political impact — but marriage was never brought to him as a way to stave off war. That never happened in the show. Marriage is quite different because it does have significant political impact. It wasn’t brought to Dany either.
And the reason for that, I believe, was because it solved too many plot problems needed to drive Dany to the edge.
It’s like saying Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the KotV because she knew Jon would say no. Well, Jon wasn’t given that chance — just like he wasn’t given the chance to consider a marriage since the writers didn’t permit the topic to come up between Jon or Dany. And they didn’t present it as a solution either.
The characters can only think so far as what the writers want them to think or come up with. Marriage wasn’t considered a solution for them as decided by Varys. That’s more on the writers.
Ten Bears,
Well, Jon urged Sansa after that, “We need to trust each other.” :/ So it seems his trust in her wasn’t broken at that point but based on the finale script, where Jon can’t quite forgive Sansa for breaking her vow, I think it is broken now. But too late.
Also, Chekov’s gun 🙂
Eh, I think this (and the KotV) were examples of needed plot contrivances from Sansa’s part of the story to keep the story moving to where it needed to go. That’s not me trying to be unduly critical but when I think through these plans… they kind of fall apart.
Adrianacandle,
”The topic of marriage never came up between Jon or Dany, nor was it ever presented as a solution to them by their advisors (or by the writers).”
• Didn’t Tyrion present the advantage of a marriage alliance to Dany (though not specifically to Jon Snow) before leaving Mereen, when she blew off her boy toy Daario?
• Gendry sure didn’t waste any time hearing wedding bells after his tryst with Arya. Why wouldn’t Jon think of marriage, at least from a political standpoint, to benefit “his people”?
Ten Bears,
It wasn’t mentioned since 6×10, after which it seemed forgotten about.
Well, that’s a question for the writers. I think it was a plot contrivance.
Gendry wasn’t doing it for political reasons and… that was an odd thing for Gendry to do considering the times. Meanwhile, both Jon and Dany are quite comfortable with having sex outside of marriage. Dany didn’t think of it either and she’s the one who mentioned it in 6×10. As I said above, it never came up between them, nor was it brought to them. It was written off by Varys, which I think was the writers dismissing it.
The characters can only think or generate ideas so far as what the writers want them to think or come up with. Marriage wasn’t considered a solution for them as decided by Varys. It wasn’t even mentioned in writer commentary. I think they just wanted it off the table.
And the reason for that, I believe, was because it solved too many plot problems needed to drive Dany to the edge.
Jon’s story as a political threat to Dany’s claim is, I believe, an adaptation of Young Griff’s story. Marriage wouldn’t solve the issue between Young Griff and Dany. Neither wants to be each other’s consort.
Adrianacandle,
”Jon’s story as a political threat to Dany’s claim is, I believe, an adaptation of Young Griff’s story. Marriage wouldn’t solve the issue between Young Griff and Dany.”
So… it’s kind of like the Jeyne Poole-Sansa merger: Maybe it seemed like a good idea on paper, but left too many logical loose ends in its execution.
Yeah, I think this is essentially it. As GRRM warned, these changes can result in a “butterfly effect”. Eliminating Young Griff leads to some problems, I think. And while the Sansa-Jeyne Poole created a more dramatic and expanded story for Sansa, the merge led to story problems for LF and Sansa. LF came up with a fairly nonsensical plan to marry Sansa to her family’s enemy, the family who betrayed the Starks, to take them down from the inside. And Sansa agrees. But how would Sansa do that? LF and Sansa both seemed to think this was the way at the time though. Yet, the North didn’t seem to care that she was there.
Probably worked on paper, especially from a dramatic point of view, but… there are some plot holes with it in practice. I do feel for D&D here because they had more constraints they had to work within in a television series than GRRM has with the books. GRRM can go wild. D&D needed to simplify, merge, and distill a series of very complicated and intricate books.
The Visual DNA test 🙂
David Rosenblatt,
Thanks!
Ten Bears,
Awww, thanks so much. Narrating audiobooks sounds like a fun gig tbh
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I apologize, I forgot to address the Hizdahr/Dany situation. In the show (ep 5×05), marriage was actually addressed by Dany herself and she states the reasons why. She says, “And in order to forge a lasting bond with the Meereenese people, I will marry the leader of an ancient family. Thankfully, a suitor is already on his knees.” [indicating Hizdahr, who is before her] This was Dany’s peaceful solution after the discord between herself and the Meereenese nobles — but it was presented and stated on-screen as a peaceful resolution to Hizdahr himself.
In the books, it’s done a bit differently. Dany agrees to marry Hizdahr as part of an agreement that he promise her a prolonged period without bloodshed and as one of the terms for peace between herself, Yunkai, and the Harpy.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but most of the Westerosi aristocracy is actually pretty inbred; the extended families comprising the leaders of the Houses have been marrying mainly amongst themselves for a very long time (not *within* the families, I mean, but between those same networks of Houses over and over again). So it’s not surprising if negative personality traits and underlying medical conditions have built up over the generations. Not as much as the Targs, but there’s still stuff that all the Houses would have to deal with, including the Starks.
Children resulting from Robb’s “mixed marriage” with Talisa would actually have given a much-needed genetic boost to the Stark clan.
Jai,
I don’t think these traits are supposed to be the result of incest, especially since they’re limited to in-universe perception (Ned wasn’t that inflexible with his honour in actuality) or show portrayal/adaptational choices. And in the books, Robb marries a fellow Westerosi girl (Jeyne Westerling).
I think there are only three instances of incest in the Stark family, but none breaking the Faith’s rules. The Targaryens also marry outside the family quite a bit — Dany has Dayne, Martell, Arryn, and Blackwood blood in her background — while there have only been a handful of mad cases (six, I think) among the many generations of Targaryens.
Because Westeros and Planetos are fictional places, I’m not sure how much real-world science would apply to how their incest works. As I understand it, it’s not the act of incest which causes genetic problems but because relatives are more likely to share recessive genes for genetic issues depending on how close in blodline they are, if they mate, those recessive genes manifest.
*I think there are only three instances of incest in the Stark family[…]
In one of those cases, I think it’s a pretty far enough removed blood relation — first cousins once removed between Rickard and Lyarra Stark. To try and explain what that “once removed” means to those who don’t know, Lyarra isn’t Rickard’s own first cousin but the cousin of Rickard’s father Edwyle. Their common ancestor would be Rickard’s great-grandparent, who would be Lyarra’s grandparent.
Adrianacandle,
They’re obviously a result of local cultural factors/traditions too.
Yes, but I was referring to GoT, not the books.
Robb marrying Talisa: A healthy injection of Essosi genes into the Stark family (and into the Westerosi aristocracy in general).
Jon marrying his aunt Taylor Swift, I mean, Dany: Not so much. (I bet Dua Lipa would never nuke a city or bonk a nephew. Be more like Ms Lipa, Dany!)
Yes, but Dany’s non-Targ ancestry still involves *the same group of families who had been marrying amongst themselves for many generations*.
It’s more complicated than that. The recessive genes don’t just manifest in the cases of close-relatives marriages; they can also manifest when the same groups of extended families (or any other form of endogamous in-group) keep having children within the same in-group network over and over again for generations. The problems increasingly manifest the smaller that network is and the more times the marriages have happened within that network over the centuries/millennia. Harvard geneticists actually have a major medical research project underway focusing on exactly this issue.
Someone would need to ask GRRM, but I’m guessing it’s the same as the real world. Humans on Planetos seem to reach adulthood sooner and live longer than us, but as far as I know they’re not meant to be literally aliens 🙂
Petra,
Excellent video, Petra.
I’ve just replied to Adriana’s recent comments to me, but my post has disappeared into the “awaiting moderation” queue. Could you please take a look and rescue it.
Adrianacandle,
”I think they needed to fire this gun though since they merged the Jon Snow/Young Griff plotlines in the adaptation. I think the merge was awkward for many reasons.”
You Got Me Thinking, Part 1:
• I never understood, and the show never explained, why Lyanna (and Rhaegar?) chose “Aegon” as the name for their baby, when Rhaegar’s older son (with Elia Martell) was already named Aegon.
(My far-fetched tinfoil theory
• Now that you’ve articulated how the show (awkwardly) sought to merge the Jon Snow and Young Griff (Varys’s imposter Aegon?) plot lines, I guess that would explain why show! Lyanna said baby Jon’s real name was Aegon T.
Still, it would have been nice if the show had given a reason for recycling the name.
Petra,
Excellent video, Petra.
I’ve just replied to Adriana’s comment to me, but my post has been diverted to the “awaiting moderation” queue. Could you please take a look and rescue it?
Jai,
Don’t worry, Jai! That happens sometimes to all of us! 🙂 Can take a few hours or days for the post to be approved and then it’ll appear! The real bummer is when posts disappear into the ether entirely.
That’s my own speculation as well because it’d be strange if Rhaegar sought to use the same name twice. That is, if he was involved with naming Jon — but I think he was. It’s my suspicion Jon’s book birth name will be different because we’ve already got an Aegon, son of Rhaegar, bouncing around. I mean, I know Aegon is like the Targaryen’s version of Michael but yeah, I don’t know many parents who use the same name twice.
Jai,
I’m not sure about that. I’d say most characters’ show counterparts made some strange decisions and underwent varying drops in intelligence — per what the plot required and what D&D were going for. Even Littlefinger, Varys, and Tyrion.
Of course, book counterparts aren’t immune to this either but it’s just D&D had more constraints placed on them considering the medium.
Well, Talisa is Valyrian. She’s not really bringing terribly foreign genes into the pool — it’s better than mating with a blood relative but Valyrian genes are already in the Westerosi aristocracy. For instance, anyone who has Martell/Targaryen/Velaryon blood has a healthy dose of Valyrion genes. The thing is, GRRM’s world is intricate but fairly contained and relatively small.
Also, First Men (who the Starks, many Northman, and the wildlings are descended from) are from Essos. When they invaded Westeros, First Men came from grasslands of Essos per The World of Ice and Fire.
Some humans are magic though — specifically the Starks and Targaryens. Deformities aren’t common in these families, nor are diseases. The cause of madness is unknown and is never stated in the text. There have been six confirmed cases in the multitudes of generations of Targaryens and each case has come about differently. Plus, instances of madness aren’t limited to the Targaryen family. Toward the end, after Robb is killed and Catelyn believes all her children are dead, she goes mad and starts tearing off her face. This is the same kind of madness that is induced in Helaena Targaryen, who closes in on herself and commits suicide.
This is also a world with indeterminate seasons, magical substances, magical bloodlines, those who can ride and tame dragons, those who can’t, wargs, direwolves, sorcery, 700ft tall ice walls, ice zombies, tree wizards so… it’s not exactly playing by real-world science’s rules.
Adrianacandle,
It wasn’t forgotten. A marriage between Jon and Danerys was mentioned in season 8, but after Jon’s parentage reveal, it was no longer an option.
Ten Bears,
What logical loose ends did this storyline, or the Sansa’s marriage to Ramsay, create?
I was referring to the characters it involved. It wasn’t forgotten by the writers or J & D’s advisors but it never came up between J & D. Varys had written it off.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, I’m here. Just had to step away for a few days.
Adrianacandle,
Well, their relationship had only begun when Jon found out, so they didn’t bring it up yet.
For starters, see June 16, 8:13 pm reply by Adrianacandle:
”And while the Sansa-Jeyne Poole created a more dramatic and expanded story for Sansa, the merge led to story problems for LF and Sansa. LF came up with a fairly nonsensical plan to marry Sansa to her family’s enemy, the family who betrayed the Starks, to take them down from the inside. And Sansa agrees. But how would Sansa do that? LF and Sansa both seemed to think this was the way at the time though. Yet, the North didn’t seem to care that she was there.”
It would take days to catalog all of the absurdities of LF’s ridiculous Bolton marriage “plan,” and Sansa’s assent to it. My biggest gripe – confirmed by GRRM himself – is that there is no way in the world LF would ever give away the virtue of his Catelyn 2.0 to anyone, for any price.
I also did not enjoy yet another season of Sansa treated as a human pin cushion. It was just awful.
Ten Bears,
I’m not saying Littlefinger’s plan was a good one. I’m saying it was consistent with his previous behavior. A lot of people seem to see Littlefinger as some master strategist, but he’s not. He’s someone who simply throws a wrench into the works, steps back, and sees what happens. Take his plan to poison Jon Arryn, for example. That was a pretty dumb plan. It relied far too heavily on certain characters acting in certain ways that was outside of his control. And to top it off, his plan relied on Crazy Lysa Arryn keeping her mouth shut. No, his plan was nonsensical. The only reason people see him as a genius was because his plan appeared to be working, and that’s the problem. Sometimes, bad plans succeed. Sometimes, good plans fail. The success or failure of a plan doesn’t necessarily determine the merits of the plan itself.
I disagree with Martin. I think Littlefinger would have done anything to achieve his ambition, including pushing Sansa under the bus. Of course, everything Martin says now is irrelevant until he completes his story.
Young Dragon,
”I disagree with Martin. I think Littlefinger would have done anything to achieve his ambition, including pushing Sansa under the bus.”
Well, at least in the books and through S4 of GoT., LF was GRRM’s creation. It’s kind of hard to challenge his conceptions, to that extent.
Even later on in the show (S6e10 I think), LF’ expressly announced his ambition to Sansa: he pictured himself on the Iron Throne, with Sansa by his side. He also had a desire to compensate for the humiliation he suffered as a boy; no letter way to do that than to take the virtue of Cat 2.0 himself. Sansa’s take on LF in S7e7 (WF battlements scene with YMBQ – I mean her younger sister -was that in his own horrible way, LF did love her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGZaM9njtmo
Anyway, I guess we can all read different things into the twisted psyche of this malevolent, fictional villain…
Of course, everything Martin says now is irrelevant until he completes his story.”
Touché my friend! 😂
Adrianacandle,
GRRM: “…Some writers are architects and some are gardeners, and I am in the second camp.”
Hey, big G. Ask any horticulturalist what happens when you leave your garden untended for ten years.
I’ve seen pictures of his real garden from Twitter! It’s nice! … That’s one thing he’s tending I guess.
Le sigh.
Adrianacandle,
… to take them down from the inside. And Sansa agrees. But how would Sansa do that?
As Oleanna Tyrell herself demonstrated most admirably to Sansa, “Poison is a woman’s weapon.” (And, when Grande Dame Tyrell ultimately confesses to Jaime, she mischievously explains, “You see, I’d never seen the poison work before.”)
I also did not enjoy yet another season of Sansa treated as a human pin cushion. It was just awful.
As we all recall, after the broadcast of Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken, there were several internets’ worth of outrage spilled over Ramsay’s maltreatment of Sansa. My spouse and I, after hosting our watch party that night, wondered exactly what show these complainers had been watching. Yes, Sansa’s many sufferings were awful. That was because Ramsay was awful, the bastard son of an awful father and faithless bannerman. Westeros is awful, too: Roose Bolton was an exemplar of fatherly and feudal virtue compared to Tywin Lannister, one of the most powerful patriarchs on the entire continent. Craster’s victims were “liberated” by mutinous Night’s Watchmen, who proceeded to treat them worse than even Craster ever had. (As we all know, I could continue this tedious recital of atrocity for quite a few more lines, if anyone wanted me to; I certainly don’t.) My spouse and I remarked upon the obvious: it was all sadistically vicarious fun and games until a character many viewers cared about received similar treatment, at which point it became an outrage.
Young Dragon,
I disagree with Martin. I think Littlefinger would have done anything to achieve his ambition, including pushing Sansa under the bus. Of course, everything Martin says now is irrelevant until he completes his story.
And should that day ever come, Martin may well have decided B&W were correct. Were I a betting man, I would not place a wager upon us ever reading the answer.
I don’t agree that Baelish was abandoning Sansa, though. He’d conspired with Oleanna Tyrell to rid Westeros of Joffrey, and may even have supplied her with the poison. He may have just figured he’d soon return to Winterfell, give Sansa her weapon, and let Sansa end House Bolton herself. (What? A Stark girl, poison every powerful man of a Great House?!? How unbelievable…)
I’m not sure if it’s wise for me to pick this battle today but here goes 🙂
(Using the Ten Bears formatting!)
* Where would Sansa get a fatal poison? LF didn’t seem to leave her with any and poison didn’t seem to be part of his plan or this would have been revealed to the audience.
* What would Sansa do with Bolton loyalists? How does she protect herself alone? The Bolton family (including Roose’s Frey wife?) drop dead at the dinner table — Sansa is the only one who survives… it’ll look a bit suspicious.
* What happens if somebody is wise to what Sansa is doing? Sansa kind of makes things worse for herself.
I mean, LF left Sansa there alone with no protection and oddly, Sansa… agreed to this. I know why D&D merged Sansa’s storyline with Jeyne Poole’s and Ten Bears is probably right: it may have worked better on paper than in execution (in my estimation anyway).
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Actually, Tensor, I think I’m going to let the Sansa-Baelish battle go this time 🙂 That’s not a hill I’ll die on today! I have those reservations but… yeah, I’ll let this one go for now!
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“Oleanna Tyrell herself demonstrated most admirably to Sansa, “Poison is a woman’s weapon.” (And, when Grande Dame Tyrell ultimately confesses to Jaime, she mischievously explains, “You see, I’d never seen the poison work before.”)”
Sandor Clegane: “Poison’s a woman’s weapon. Real men kill with steel.”
Arya: “That’s your stupid pride talking. I’d have killed Joffrey with a chicken bone if I had to.”
Which begs the question: Why didn’t Sansa kill Ramsey with the corkscrew she filched?
For that matter, why didn’t LF arm Sansa with some of the poisons he used on Joffrey or Jon Arryn? He sent her, defenseless., into the den of Stark killers and left her there alone. Some “plan.”
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“(What? A Stark girl, poison every powerful man of a Great House?!? How unbelievable…)
I know! You have to mix it up a bit. Carve a couple. Slit the throat of another. And then poison the rest.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“As we all recall, after the broadcast of Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken, there were several internets’ worth of outrage spilled over Ramsay’s maltreatment of Sansa. My spouse and I, after hosting our watch party that night, wondered exactly what show these complainers had been watching. Yes, Sansa’s many sufferings were awful. That was because Ramsay was awful, the bastard son of an awful father and faithless bannerman…”
———-
– It wasn’t the maltreatment of a known character that irked me. It was that the Sansa-Jeyne merged plot line made zero sense.
– This scene from the end of S4e8 signaled Sansa’s character progression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxTrEb9U6o0
At 0:41 – 1:05
And that was all tossed away in S5 because the showrunners “loved” the Jeyne Poole storyline and didn’t want to keep Sophie and Sansa on the sidelines, futzing around in the Vale. (Really? But it was okay to disappear Bran for all of S5? And park Arya in Braavos for nearly two seasons?)
– S5, LF to Sansa: “Avenge them!”
Me to TV: “How?”
– Out of all the show-only divergences they could’ve thought of to keep Sophie & Sansa busy, that’s the storyline they chose? It didn’t even make any sense, in-universe or outside of it. (What was there to “love” about Jeyne’s story anyway?)
– Like Adrianacandle wrote:
I’m going to let the Sansa-Baelish battle go this time 🙂 That’s not a hill I’ll die on today! I have those reservations but… yeah, I’ll let this one go for now!
– Now, can we get back to Ned-bashing? 😀
Young Dragon,
TB: “Hey, Young Dragon? You still around? I’ve got your Musical Interlude teed up and ready for you.😄”
YD: ”Yeah, I’m here. Just had to step away for a few days.”
————
Ten Bears,
That may have been Martin’s intention, but the writer’s intention and my interpretation don’t always match up. I’m sure, in some sick way, Littlefinger cared about Sansa, but I don’t think he would allow his feelings get in the way of his goals. After all, his love for Catelyn didn’t prevent him from starting a war and putting her life in danger.
Ten Bears,
Looking forward to it!
Completely agree about Littlefinger. Since S7, I developed a firm opinion that Littlefinger is not some careful strategic mastermind… he’s a chaos-bringer and that’s pretty much his motivation in my eyes. Even if the kingdom got at complete peace and he would still be alive, I’m sure he would find a way to instigate chaos again. I even think his death was kind of a fitting one… chaotic and sudden just like he caused chaos himself. When I think of it overall, I feel Littlefinger was actually one of the most twisted GoT characters overall. We believe him to be a master schemer but he’s in fact worse… a chaos bringer, a man whose entire purpose is to drive world into disorder and misery. And I don’t know where GRRM will go with him but as far as I’m concerned about TV Littlefinger, I think he didn’t actually care that much for Sansa that he would prioritize her well-being above everything. Yes, probably in some twisted way, he had feelings for her but I only imagine what he could have been capable of if he fully realized he can’t claim Sansa. I’m sure he would have been capable of getting rid of her in most unpleasnat way.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
“I even think his [LF’s] death was kind of a fitting one… chaotic and sudden just like he caused chaos himself.”
His death was mind-numbingly dumb. He could have easily talked his way out of the “charges” against him at his trial by ambush, but instead he folded like a cheap suit and confessed for no damn reason. Cousin Orson could have mounted a better defense.
”When I think of it overall, I feel Littlefinger was actually one of the most twisted GoT characters overall.”
You got that right. He was a serial killer – and orphaned poor Robyn while pretending to be his steadfast Uncle Petyr. While he assassinated Joffrey, he orchestrated it to frame Sansa and Tyrion for the crime. (He tried to frame Tyrion for the assassination attempt on Bran too.)
“he’s in fact worse… a chaos bringer, a man whose entire purpose is to drive world into disorder and misery.”
While I don’t know if that was his purpose, he sure did cause a lot of anguish and misery. My only regret is he got off too easy in the end. For all the pain he caused, he deserved the Full Meryn.™️ Quick, surgical bisection of his carotid artery? Nah.
“Where’s the punishment in that?”
– S. Clegane
Professor of Criminal Justice
Ten Bears,
This scene from the end of S4e8 signaled Sansa’s character progression…
Yeah, she looked pretty badass, didn’t she? Guess what? Looking and feeling confident may or may not translate to actually knowing what to do when the time comes. Sansa had survived Joffrey and Cersei, but Ramsay was a whole ‘nother animal (almost literally).
(What was there to “love” about Jeyne’s story anyway?)
You’d have to ask B&W. It ties into Jon’s story, and is the reason he’s assassinated in the books. Maybe that’s it? I dunno.
Adrianacandle,
What would Sansa do with Bolton loyalists? How does she protect herself alone? The Bolton family (including Roose’s Frey wife?) drop dead at the dinner table — Sansa is the only one who survives… it’ll look a bit suspicious.
Well, if she was that obvious about it, sure. My speculation is Baelish expected her to ingratiate herself with her new husband, and once she had his trust, Baelish could get her poison(s). He was caught unawares by Ramsay’s savagery, which invalidated any plan Baelish may have had.
Ten Bears,
Why didn’t Sansa kill Ramsey with the corkscrew she filched?
Um, because Ramsay was very accomplished in hand-to-hand combat, and Winterfell was crawling with Bolton soldiers? She clearly was thinking about it, and that feeds my speculation Baelish may have had a poison plot in mind.
Ten Bears,
He could have easily talked his way out of the “charges” against him at his trial by ambush, but instead he folded like a cheap suit and confessed for no damn reason.
Sansa was his judge and jury, and she was well and tired of his antics, so I doubt anything he might have said would have made the least bit of difference. Lord Royce had wanted to throw Baelish out the Moon Door for quite some time, and thus Royce eagerly refused Baelish any protection when Sansa threatened “justice.” Politicking and scheming may have made Baelish powerful in his native South, but he lost his head for it in the North.
(Also, I believe your cliche is off. A cheap card table folds easily; a cheap suit clings uncomfortably.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Forgive me, Tensor. I’m afraid I’m getting caught up in this convo again but I’ll try to leave it soon 🙁
Well, that’s part of the problem with this storyline because they took that stuff from Jon’s book storyline out in season 5. He doesn’t face the temptations to break neutrality in the show as he does in the books. His assassination happens under different circumstances. Sansa’s storyline doesn’t tie into Jon’s until after he’s assassinated, not before. Plus, that Jon believes Jeyne to be Arya is key.
The thing is, and I’m honestly not trying to be contrary for contrary’s sake, I don’t see any support that this was LF’s plan. No discussion or indication of poison is ever mentioned. Plus, if Boltons conveniently drop dead of unknown causes (that could easily be figured to be poison), giving Sansa control, that will look suspicious. I don’t know how Sansa could achieve this without looking suspicious. The first suspect in a Boltons dropping like flies case would be… Sansa. She has more than enough motive, well-known motive, and is associated with LF. It’s not a great look.
Adrianacandle,
…I don’t see any support that this was LF’s plan.
It’s my speculation, labeled as such, based on Baelish having conspired with two very different women to kill two very powerful men.
No discussion or indication of poison is ever mentioned.
Oleanna Tyrell did not mention poison when she reminded Baelish (and informed us viewers) that she had conspired with him to murder Joffrey.
Plus, if Boltons conveniently drop dead of unknown causes (that could easily be figured to be poison), giving Sansa control, that will look suspicious.
It sure would. Then again, if she waited until Roose died, and after Ramsay had spread the blatantly false story Roose had been “poisoned by our enemies,” well then, she might’ve gotten away with Ramsay dying sometime thereafter.
Also, although the story doesn’t dwell on this point, there are many different types of poisons, with many different modes of action. Some act quickly, some take a long time, and all can be mistaken for disease. (“A fever took him.”) Given the large number of illnesses common to a society with poor sanitation, irregular diet, and no understanding of germ theory, death was not necessarily a suspicious event. We’re talking about a setting where even educated persons believed in “humours,” divine retribution, sorcery, and the like. Sansa and Baelish could’ve gotten results simply from the common belief in the North, “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell,” and how the Boltons were being punished by Fate for expelling the Starks from there.
…not trying to be contrary for contrary’s sake…
Of course not. We never do that here. 😉
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Poison was mentioned numerous times by multiple characters in regard to Joffrey’s death.
In ASOIAF, these educated people — such as maesters — do suspect poison when there’s no apparent cause. In ASOIAF, the maesters both dislike and aren’t willing to put much trust in magic or divinity. They will look for the practical answer, especially when it comes to the strange and convenient deaths of members Sansa would be motivated to kill. For instance:
If the members of House Bolton start dropping, I doubt it’ll be shrugged off as being punished by fate — especially when it comes to Bolton loyalists. I can’t remember unexplained deaths of Westerosi nobles being dismissed like that. When characters are poisoned in ASOIAF or GoT, these deaths are not typically shrugged away. I think that’d be its own suspension of belief. There are suspects, like in Joffrey’s death — and Sansa would be an obvious one in this case as she was in Joffrey’s. That she is suspected of Joffrey’s death wouldn’t look good for her if Boltons also start dying from poison.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I don’t know what the Northern houses believed/didn’t believe in the show. But if Ramsay dies as well, I think that would raise some eyebrows in Sansa’s direction since the Boltons took part in the murder of her family.
LF leaving Sansa there alone with no protection or support and gambling on a plan like this doesn’t sound particularly wise or strategic. It sounds like a good way for Sansa to become a prime suspect in another murder again, especially when she was present for Joffrey’s death after which she mysteriously disappears and pops up again in a second marriage to have that husband and his father die. Another family who took part in the downfall of her own.
Maybe LF’s death was dumb for YOU but obviously not for me because I’m satisfied with it and it makes sense to me and I can easily list more than one reason why… the same as when you made a statement “What’s there to love about Sansa’s S5 story?” and I gave myself a brainstorming task to list at least 10 reasons why I enjoyed that story and I ended up listing 12. I can do that for Littlefinger’s death, I can do that for Dany’s downfall, I can do that for Bran’s Coronation, Jon’s Exile… I can do that for pretty much every single thing people disliked but I liked and I don’t think anyone can take that away from me.
Roose and his wife each died violently, and her death followed soon after his. Had Ramsay sickened and died after that, the judgement of the Old Gods and the New could have sufficed as an explanation. As Roose warned Ramsay, the longer Ramsay used sadistic violence to get what he wanted, the more enemies he would make. The number of persons with motives to kill him would get ever larger.
It’s really a matter of what Sansa might’ve been willing to do. Ramsay raped her and beat her, after the faithless Boltons had taken her home. As you’ve noted, that’s quite an incentive. She also could have waited until she and Ramsay had traveled to a castle of non-Bolton loyalists, and killed him there. Baelish could have had all or none of this in mind.
Poison was mentioned numerous times by multiple characters in regard to Joffrey’s death.
Because his death was so sudden and violent, it shocked even Oleanna Tyrell (who implied she’d used that poison before). Jon Arryn’s death was officially attributed to disease, and nobody said otherwise until characters mentioned it in private conversations, years later.
(And, now that you mention Joffery again, I recall Tyrion Lannister was publicly tried and convicted for poisoning Joffrey, after which he actually did murder his own father. Those events might have made Sansa less of a suspect.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I could be misrembering but I’m not aware of any Westerosi deaths being attributed to “the judgement of the Old Gods and the New” by maesters in the story. I guess I just don’t think multiple Bolton deaths would be dismissed as such.
And Sansa would be #1 on that list of enemies. Not only because of the personal abuse, but because of how the Boltons betrayed her family in the slaughter known as the Red Wedding. That’s well known. And as his wife, she’s in very close proximity to him.
If Ramsay sought to make that trip. That’s a pretty big gamble as well. The family Sansa would be trying to frame would also have cause to point the finger back at her to save themselves.
The difference with Jon Arryn is he didn’t exactly have a notorious reputation or known enemies with well known motives to kill him. The Boltons had just betrayed Sansa’s family in a legendary brutal fashion. However, Ned and Catelyn are suspicious from the outset as soon as they learn of Arryn’s death — that’s part of the reason Ned agrees to go to King’s Landing, to investigate Jon Arryn’s death.
I don’t think that makes Sansa less of a suspect. She still was a suspect as Tyrion’s wife — but they could only get their hands on Tyrion.
Is someone trying to take that away from you?
Adrianacandle,
I could be misrembering but I’m not aware of any Westerosi deaths being attributed to “the judgement of the Old Gods and the New” by maesters in the story.
Maesters neither sit in judgement, nor do they enforce laws. Boltons and their soldiers did, when the Boltons ruled in the North. And Northerners might so attribute misfortunes suffered by violent rulers.
I guess I just don’t think multiple Bolton deaths would be dismissed as such.
Sansa did not have to wait very long, nor take any action, to have “multiple Bolton deaths” become “one Bolton’s death.” (And that death would come to someone who had long been rapidly creating enemies.)
And Sansa would be #1 on that list of enemies.
Not necessarily. Ramsay’s methods of ruling were so pointlessly brutal and needlessly provocative, even Roose — hardly a stranger to employing great violence! — rebuked him for them. The longer he did that, the more Northerners would shrug off his demise as deserved.
The difference with Jon Arryn is he didn’t exactly have a notorious reputation or known enemies with well known motives to kill him.
We don’t know that. He was Hand of the King, the official executor of Royal policy, to a sovereign who was famously uninterested in actually ruling. Thus, Jon Arryn was the actual ruler of the Seven Kindgoms. There’s no way he, or anyone else, could have done that job for a long time without making enemies. (Robert himself said the Seven Kindgoms were ruled by fear.)
The Boltons had just betrayed Sansa’s family in a legendary brutal fashion.
The Freys had done that. Roose wisely kept his own role secret until the moment of execution, and neither he nor his House ever seems to have been named as a culprit.
However, Ned and Catelyn are suspicious from the outset as soon as they learn of Arryn’s death — that’s part of the reason Ned agrees to go to King’s Landing, to investigate Jon Arryn’s death.
The moment Robert makes his request, Ned kneels in front of Robert and takes the job, no questions asked. Ned and Cat talk later about whether their going to King’s Landing is a good idea. They had ties of friendship and marriage to Jon Arryn, and reacted emotionally to his sudden death; even in our society, the death of an old man who had lots of responsibilities does not surprise us.
I don’t think that makes Sansa less of a suspect. She still was a suspect as Tyrion’s wife — but they could only get their hands on Tyrion.
True, but the only people who matter here are persons who could get their hands on Sansa: Northerners, who have been loyal to the Starks for generations.
The Northerners were blatantly disloyal to the Starks until they took back Winterfell for themselves. The only ones who came to the Starks’ aid were the Mormonts.
The rest of the Northerners only became loyal again once they had to answer for their disloyalty.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
As you’ve pointed out earlier in this thread, maesters do wield influence and power. They’re not likely to dismiss the unexplained death of a noble. And I can’t remember any Northerners simply attributing such deaths to fate.
The problem is how it looks:
a) Ramsay claims his father was “poisoned by our enemies” after Sansa arrives.
b) Sansa’s already been present at the death of a poisoning and is a suspect for that death.
c) Ramsay drops dead of unexplained causes with Sansa around.
d) Sansa has the most access to Ramsay’s person, far more than any of his other enemies.
Per the text, though, he didn’t have publicly well known enemies with well known motives. He did have enemies — but that information wasn’t well-known. I think Ramsay’s death would be looked at closely, especially considering Ramsay’s enemies, age, and his wife Sansa’s history. The Starks aren’t universally popular in the North and Sansa doesn’t have protection.
The Boltons’ role in the Red Wedding is known about in the North in both the books and show. Off the top of my head, Lyanna and Sansa both talk of it in 6×10 for instance. In the book, this is one of the reasons factions of Northern houses are gathering anti-Bolton rebellions. However, in the show, the Northern lords didn’t seem to care Sansa was married to Ramsay.
I did misremember a bit because they suspect foul play when Lysa sends Catelyn a note saying Jon Arryn was murdered. In a change from the books, it’s Luwin who urges Ned to go south after this news. In the books, it’s Catelyn.
From the show:
And Ned does investigate Jon Arryn’s murder, this is how he comes upon Gendry.
Not all Northern houses are loyal to House Stark. Some defected to the Boltons: like Umber and Karstark. The rest…. didn’t seem to care Sansa was married to Ramsay at all.
Yup. Season 6 showed that the Northerners love for the Starks was a bit of a myth, except for the Mormonts, and even Lyanna was openly disrespectful to the Starks. The Northerners will generally bend over to anyone who’s in power.
They could handle being ruled by the sadistic and cruel Boltons, but a “foreigner” who wasn’t even a foreigner in the first place was apparently too much for them to handle?
Mr Derp,
I think even Sansa calls them “bloody wind vanes”.
In the books, not all Northern houses are pro-Stark either but the pro-Stark houses (except for the Karstarks because of Robb executing Rickard Karstark) generally stay pro-Stark and are secretly forming an anti-Bolton rebellion.
It would’ve been nice to see this on screen. It would’ve gone a long way in showing Northern loyalty to the Starks even when the Boltons were in power.
The show made it clear that the North was pretty much done with the Starks because Rob married a foreigner. It oversimplified things, IMO, because they wanted to tie in the whole “Northerners rejecting a foreign woman” thing later on with Jon and Dany.
I understand that there just wasn’t enough time for the show to articulate this, but they could’ve made time if they really wanted to. It would’ve made an intriguing side plot.
Mr Derp,
I think part of the issue is adaptational changes. For one, Robb’s wife in the books is not Talisa from Essos but Jeyne Westerling. However, more significantly is maybe how much D&D changed Sansa’s storyline going forward in order to showcase Sophie Turner and expand Sansa’s storyline because they didn’t feel Sansa played a large enough role in the books:
Having Sansa going it alone in WF with her only help being Theon probably does make for a more dramatic storyline for one of their leading ladies, I suppose.
But you’re right. It is what it is.
I didn’t know that! That’s interesting.
It makes it feel even more so that D&D went out of their way to tie in the North’s reaction to Robb/Talisa with Jon/Dany later on…even though Dany wasn’t really a foreigner at all. I mean, really, did any of Dany’s advisors or her lover think to clear this up with the Northerners? If it was that big of a deal then “Hey guys, Dany was born in Westeros” could’ve taken like 5 seconds.
The more I think about it, the more it feels like Sansa is basically queen of a bunch of racist nationalists.
Mr Derp,
I believe Dany’s birth story is actually well known and it’s common knowledge. She is known as “Stormborn”. Dany was born in Westeros but she grew up across the Narrow Sea.
As Tyrion tells her:
The well-known downfall of the Targaryens happened in living memory, as did Robert’s well-known hatred for Targaryens and Dany and Viserys’s exile so I think all nobility at least know Dany was born in Westeros but was smuggled away as a baby.
I believe she’s considered “foreign” because she did not grow up in Westeros.
Adrianacandle,
I wasn’t all that down on Sansa’s storyline with the Boltons. Not as much as TB. I thought it was ok.
When it comes to Sansa, I just didn’t like her storyline with Arya in season 7 and I never thought the show did a good job articulating how exactly Sansa became so smart.
Defenders will say that she learned from the best. Littlefinger is used as the primary example. However, as some have noted in this very thread, Littlefinger wasn’t smart.
Some say she found herself in season 6, but I just found her to be obnoxious and petulant. Everything she did that season didn’t work other than taking advantage of Littlefinger’s obsession for her. Then, suddenly early in season 7 she’s telling the metal workers how to properly make armor. Um, ok? No idea where she would’ve learned that, but, yea, ok. She knows how to make armor apparently.
Mr Derp,
I agree! I remember as far back as late 2016 when you made a post articulating your issues with how they executed Sansa’s intelligence which perfectly explained my issues as well. I’ve kept it in the back of my mind since. I remember an article written about the Sansa Problem here.
It feels the show was trying to have their cake and eat it too. Per the article’s subtitle, “Is Sansa Stark dim and virtuous or evil and cunning? She can’t be all those things.”
Sure, but if everyone knows that she was born in Westeros and had to flee due to no fault of her own then I find it disingenuous that people couldn’t see the nuance there, but then again, racist nationalists aren’t always looking for logic, so I guess it makes some sense.
This all paints the Northerners as a people in a pretty dark light, IMO.
Mr Derp,
Westeros — canonically — is a prejudicial society. They blame people for all manner of things that aren’t their fault: born to unmarried parents, doesn’t fit gender norms/conventions appearance-wise, born to wrong parents, born to wrong family, not the right family name, from the wrong place, forcibly married to the wrong guy, etc. It’s kind of an awful place 🙂
This actually opens up an interesting question, at least for me.
Had Dany been accepted by the Northerners and citizens of KL with open arms, would she still have gone full Hitler when she took power?
It seems like the catalyst for her heel turn was rejection, but the show sort of made it seem inevitable that she would go bad at the same time.
Can’t argue with that 🙂
Mr Derp,
She showed up and basically said I’m in charge now of course the might not like her. She has a massive messiah complex.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
As great as his speech about Chaos is it’s actually a dumb strategy because eventually all that chaos is going to catch up to you.
Adrianacandle,
”It’s kind of an awful place 🙂”
“On second thought, let’s not go to Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQCArh_R9dY
🏰
Adrianacandle,
From the article you linked:
“It’s as if we’ve been saddled with Schrodinger’s Sansa: she’s either Dim and Virtuous or Evil and Cunning. Right now — to everyone’s confusion — she’s both.”
🤣 “Schrodinger’s Sansa” 🐱
Ten Bears,
I think I enjoy “Schrodinger’s Sansa” more than “Schrodinger’s Theory” — the idea that every ASOIAF theory is both correct and incorrect as long as there are no new books 🙂
And on the topic of Monty Python:
Thank you to Petra for a thoughtful video. I can’t come down one way or the other on whether the end of GoT the show will be beneficial to its prequel. I’ve been – and still am to some extent – under the weather this last week. I pulled a muscle in my lower back trying to get to grips (not very successfully) with the weeds in the garden and also was bitten by a horsefly (I think) and had a really swollen, red arm though that’s subsiding now. I’ve not felt like doing much – not that the good folk who visit WOTW need to hear about my moans and groans. You’ve already mentioned them, Dame, do I hear you say. Anyway, having a bit of a problem getting the old brainbox in gear (no rude remarks, you can think ’em but not say ’em).
Mr Derp, I can’t remember whether you’ve read the books or not. ADWD wasn’t the book I liked best in ASOIAF but without going into detail Dany wasn’t always little goody two shoes there. Book Dany is very young of course and is in a difficult position where not everybody likes her. I felt sympathy for book Daenerys in the first book where she was ill treated by her brother and had to overcome adversity but by ADWD I was finding her a less appealing (to me) character. That said, I didn’t necessarily pick up that she would go to the dark side from that book.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”(Also, I believe your cliche is off. A cheap card table folds easily; a cheap suit clings uncomfortably.)”
The idiom is the right one. LF didn’t even try to defend himself; instead, he folded like a cheap suit.
A variation is “folded like a cheap suitcase.” I prefer “cheap suit.” Less syllables.
F*ck! Where’s King Stannis when you need him?
Mr Derp,
”Season 6 showed that the Northerners love for the Starks was a bit of a myth, except for the Mormonts, and even Lyanna was openly disrespectful to the Starks.”
Really? I didn’t perceive Lyanna Mormont as “openly disrespectful to the Starks” in S6.
I assume you are referring to the visit to Bear Island by Jon, Sansa and Davos (in S6e7 or e8). I’ll have to rewatch that scene again.
Frankly, I thought Sansa, who made the first overture, was a bit condescending. Paraphrasing: “Hey, aren’t you cute! You’re going to be so pretty when you grow up. Oh…Where’d you get those shoes? I wonder if they have them in my size?.” Jon kind of talked down to her too. with his “What you have to understand, my Lady” shtick.
Lyanna wasn’t disrespectful to the Starks. After reaffirming her loyalty to House Stark (as she wrote in her note to Stannis, that Bear Island knows no king but the KitN, whose name is Stark), she correctly reminded her visitors that none of them were Starks:
Jon was a “Snow.” And Sansa was a Bolton. Or a Lannister. (“I’ve heard conflicting reports.”😎)
After reminding them that she was responsible for the lives of her people, and needed a damn good reason to sacrifice one more Mormont life, she did listen and consider what was at stake, and pledged her support.
That is how I remember the scene. There was a bit of snark sent Sansa’s way, but not undeservedly so.
Of course, I assume you can’t be referring to S6e10, when Lyanna gave her big “You refused the call/He’s my King!” speech.
P.S. Pardon me for the “Clueless” callback.
Adrianacandle,
“And on the topic of Monty Python” & The Holy Grail, and inevitable comparisons to GoT (which practically write themselves):
• If I recall correctly, in an interview about S1, the showrunners were cognizant that with the show’s medieval setting, if they didn’t present the story as a serious drama they’d veer into MP territory. (I don’t have the exact quote.)
• When you mentioned speculation or a theory that in the (future) books, the WW/Others threat might be resolved through some kind of negotiation,
• In light of the discussion here about the fickle Northerners and their dubious pledges of loyalty only after the battle against the Boltons was won,
I was going to go off on a Lord Robett Glover-bashing tirade,
Ten Bears,
I recall them speaking about this too. I’d have to find the quote.
And cutting down the mightiest tree in the forest would be the real challenge 😉 Sadly, it is not a swordfish — only the Chosen Conciliator could do it! And the fish would light up in mighty fiery bioluminescence…..
*farts*
Mr Derp,
”When it comes to Sansa, I just didn’t like her storyline with Arya in season 7 and I never thought the show did a good job articulating how exactly Sansa became so smart.”
We had Jon and Tyrion on Dragonstone in early S7 talking about Sansa being smart, and then in S8 Arya announcing “She’s the smartest person I’ve ever met.”.
Why should the show articulate his Sansa became so smart, when we’ve got two characters telling us she’s so smart?
Just kidding. Arya’s declaration that Sansa was “the smartest person I’ve ever met” made me cringe and groan, because:
(a) There was nothing – nothing at all – that we had seen or that Arya had seen that would justify that assessment. It came from out of left field.
(b) Arya had met Tywin Lannister, Syrio “Watching is not seeing” Forel, Jaqen H”Ghar, and even the dying farmer in S4e7, all of whom showed they weren’t intellectual slouches. They were observant and able to make deductions from limited information. [At their first meeting, Tywin quickly saw that Arya was a girl dressed as a boy, and commented that her reason (“safer to travel, my Lord”) was “smart;” later, at the end of their one on one meeting when she was a little too bold, he asked if anyone ever told her she was “too smart for your own good.”]
Characters she’d met like Yoren, Lady Crane, and Thoros showed how they were world wise, and had street smarts. Even Melisandre had demonstrated in the previous episode (S8e3) that her S3 premonitions about Arya had proven to be correct, e.g., that they’d meet again, and that Arya would close lots of eyes forever).
So, out of all of these people Arya had “ever met,” her sister Sansa was the very smartest???
(c) Arya’s declaration to Jon about Sansa’s intellect in S8e1… ⚠️ Whinge Alert
And one would have thought that in the beginning of S8e1, upon seeing Jon riding into WF, Arya would’ve immediately left the crowd and rushed over to embrace him, but I let that go, figuring their private reunion would be better. It wasn’t. It quickly turned into a talk about…Sansa.
(d) The column linked by Adrianacandle (about “Shrodinger’s Sansa”) or another column by the same reviewer, identified and described several (important) “Conversations That Took Place Off-Screen,” that prompted all kinds of fan theories but were never revealed or explained for the viewer. [I’ll try to retrieve and link that column. It was an incisive analysis and good reading, and wasn’t just the typical “D&D suck” critique.]
How Sansa got so “smart” was one of those elided conversations. For example, S7 could have but did not show Sansa unraveling LF’s stupid “plan;” reconciling with her sister; or deducing why LF should face charges (i.e., “You stand accused of murder, you stand accused of treason”).
(e) As the “Shrodinger’s Sansa” column suggested, it surely did not help that there was never an explanation for 🐴⚰️ Dead Horse Alert!
. No knock on Sophie. The show left her twisting in the wind, with no clarification of her character’s motives.
Sure, in retrospect, one could say Sansa was justified in not trusting Dany. At the time, however, there was nothing to support Sansa’s personal hostility towards Dany – especially with an existential threat knocking on their door. (The Northern Independence angle could wait until later, if they were able to survive the AotD.)
It all left some viewers to speculate that Sansa was selfish and devious, or naive and stupid,
neither of which was not the showrunners’ intent.
If the objective was to demonstrate that Sansa was “smart,” there were several missed opportunities to do that. Lining armor with insulation? That throwaway line didn’t do it for me, or for you.
(f) In all fairness, I have to assume that scripting scenes showing characters are “smart” must be very challenging, and the showrunners did not have the luxury of coming up with scenarios and fine-tuning them with re-writes and revisions, like a certain author could do.
Even so, I thought there is a narrative principle that instructs: “Show me. Don’t tell me.” Off-hand comments by Tyrion, Jon and Arya telling us how smart Sansa was didn’t do the trick. /spoiler]
Oops. Omitted a spoiler code somewhere in my last comment.
I assume this was D&D ATTEMPTING to show how Sansa was just so doggone smart that she saw everything playing out in her mind before anyone else did, but I can’t say for sure.
I think Sansa asked Dany “what about the North” because Dany said she only wanted to take back what was hers. The North was never hers, although Jon pretty much gave it to her because he was thinking with his cock and not his brain. That certainly complicated things.
However, Sansa also wanted to take back the North’s independence from KL. Sansa was trying to show that they both wanted to “take back what was theirs”. Sansa wanted to see how Dany would react to making the North independent.
Dany obviously did not react well.
Ten Bears,
It was jarring how quickly Dany granted the Ironborn their independence as long as they stopped raping and pillaging, but refused to do so with anyone else.
Equally jarring was how quickly Yara seemed to forget about Ironborn independence when King Bran was acceding to Sansa’s demand for Northern independence.
True.
When Sansa declared the North independent during the dragonpit meeting and Bran went along with it without objection, I still find it strange that all of the other kingdoms didn’t demand the same thing outright.
“Hmm, we can rule ourselves independently or take a gamble and have Big Brother dictate all of that for us. Well, I’m a sucker for a good story, so I’ll take the ladder!”
This show was all about families seeking power, yet, in the end when there’s a power vacancy, all of the major Houses just sheepishly agree to be ruled by someone they’ve never met or heard of? Especially when one just declared their independence outright without a fight?
Ten Bears,
I’d also like to see Yara try to sell this to the rest of the Ironborn.
“Hey guys, so we had independence with Dany, conducted our own democratic elections (Kingsmoot) and could’ve continued independence if we pushed for it, but I decided it would be best for us to be ruled by someone we’ve never heard of. He’s got a good story!”
(For prior and upcoming comments): Link to August 28, 2017 article by Lili Loofbourow about crucial “Conversations That Must Have Happened”
https://theweek.com/articles/721097/why-game-thrones-become-incoherent
I think I misidentified this online article as the different one by the same author that Adrianacandle linked (re: Shrodinger’s Sansa).
If the link I embedded works, you’ll see that despite its title, the article is evenhanded in its praise and criticism, while discussing the recurring problem of critical conversations that must have happened offscreen but were never revealed or explained to the audience.
“…And Theon and his valiant Ironborn crew all died for no reason trying to protect this weirdo you never heard of from White Walkers, as part of his half-baked bait plan. Nice story, huh?
So yeah! He’s our guy!”
Ten Bears,
That article by Lili was a terrific read and I agreed on most of the points raised.
There’s a couple other articles that I enjoyed from Lili:
https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-daenerys-unfit-to-rule-plot-trap.html
https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/game-of-thrones-ends-wanting-to-be-what-its-not.html
Ten Bears,
I don’t agree with everything, but I enjoyed these passages from the Dany article:
“Daenerys’ ambition, which was once celebrated, functions now as brittle hubris. The awe she once inspired in people plainly isn’t working on the Northerners, the show’s current audience surrogate. She seems more jealous than benevolent, issuing veiled threats to Jon about Sansa not respecting her, and she seems to be vaguely aligned with male relatives (like her father the Mad King, or her brother Viserys, whom she cites approvingly) whose flaws she once frankly admitted.
And her pretty understandable questioning of Jon’s claim to being Aegon Targaryen—that it comes, rather conveniently, from his brother and his best friend—is made to seem a little ungracious and desperate because we know that Jon’s intel is correct.”
“It used to be that almost everyone except slave traffickers and corrupt kings kept talking about how extraordinary and correct and wise Daenerys was. These days, the plot is side-eyeing her choices, and characters are chafing under her command. Sansa doesn’t like Dany, for one thing. Then there’s Daenerys’ scene informing Samwell Tarly that she executed his father and brother.
That incident, which has been effectively re-litigated, has been cited—by fans and commentators and Sam himself—as evidence of her cruelty and unfitness to rule. (I will confess here that this particular decision—in which Daenerys gave defeated enemies a choice to serve her and keep their estates, or die—didn’t strike me as that egregious in a show that features, among other things, a beloved character feeding a man his own children.)
Mr Derp,
I think Sansa asked Dany “what about the North” because Dany said she only wanted to take back what was hers.”
• I know Cersei, in her conversation with the Iron Bank loan officer, said something about using the Golden Company to “take back” what belonged to her. I didn’t know Dany had said something similar, i.e., wanting to take back what was hers.
Eh. It’s not important…
• What I found more interesting was your comment about Sansa’s inexplicable, immediate hostility to Dany:
”I assume this was D&D ATTEMPTING to show how Sansa was just so doggone smart that she saw everything playing out in her mind before anyone else did, but I can’t say for sure.”
Oh Mr. D! You may have solved the Shrodinger’s Sansa Dichotomy and identified a critical “Conversation That Must Have Happened” offscreen!
to be continued…
Mr Derp,
Hey thanks! I read a few more columns by Lili Loofbourow in theweek.com after the column linked by Adrianacandle. Then the website cut me off with a popup telling me I’d read the four article limit, and asking me to register for a “free” trial subscription.
Ten Bears,
We’ve all debated the accuracy of the “inside the episode” featurettes. This sums up my feelings very well:
“I started to note the developing gap between what Game of Thrones said it was showing us and what viewers themselves saw on screen around Season 4. It started with Jaime and Cersei’s scene by Joffrey’s body, which fans saw as a rape and which the episode’s director insisted was “consensual by the end.” This mismatch between what viewers saw and what showrunners and directors said they were showing us only got worse as the show went on.
By the end, as Phil Maciak argues at the Los Angeles Review of Books, those “inside the episode” featurettes became odd little power displays wherein Benioff and Weiss contradicted what they’ve told us in their own show (like Daenerys “forgetting” about the Iron Fleet despite being reminded of it in a previous scene). And because they get the last word, set in what Maciak calls a “documentary frame,” we are supposed to believe their words over our own responses.”
Ten Bears,
I like this one on Bran too:
“Tyrion’s case for Bran hinges mostly on his “brokenness.” Yet Bran, not unlike Daenerys, is a character with rare and worrying powers: He can see the past and some of the future, take possession of people and animals, and spy on literally anyone. He doesn’t need a master of whisperers.
At least Bran is innocent, you might argue, but this too is wrong: One of the greatest tragedies on this show was Hodor’s death staving off the undead—and now we know Bran sacrificed Hodor so that he could survive to become king! Bran not only warged into the gentle giant, he also traveled in time to ruin Hodor’s life years earlier. Did Bran know then that he would become king? And what does this say about his not wanting it?”
Ten Bears,
I think you’re taking Arya’s words too seriously. I sometimes call people “the nicest person I’ve ever met.” That isn’t necessarily true, that’s just my way of saying that they’re a nice person. Regardless, the point of this scene was to show solidarity between the Stark sisters and that there will be no more feuding. That’s it.
Courtesy has never really served Sansa in the past, so I’m not sure why she would use it on Danerys, particularly because Danerys stole her kingdom away from her and stripped them of their freedom. Ironic for someone called the Breaker of Chains. Not to mention that Sansa was in the right not to trust her. The assertion that the North should feel grateful for Danerys bringing her army to fight the White Walkers has never made sense to me. The White Walkers were not a northern problem. They were an everyone problem. Danerys was fighting for herself and her people, not the North. If anything, she should be the one who should be grateful. Jon told her about the Army of the Dead, their strengths and weaknesses, Bran came up with the plan to put an end to the threat, and Arya carried it out. If it wasn’t for the Starks and North, Westeros wouldn’t have stood a chance. The least Danerys could do was give them back their kingdom.
Regarding Northmen, I actually like that S6 deconstructed them to some extent regarding their supposed “unwavering loyalty to Starks” and showed that’s more of a thing for stories than grim reality. Even more, I liked the idea how both Robb’s and Jon’s actions backfired in terms of Northmen as Karstarks and Umbers sided with Boltons exactly because of what they did. It feels very much in tone with GoT for me as as I often said, GoT has always been a grim and “messed up” story. . Robb’s beheading of Karstark was justice… but resulted in Karstarks siding with Ramsay, contributing a lot of army power, especially cavalry. Jon’s actions of letting the Free Folk past the Wall was a noble one… but it pretty much caused Rickon’s capture and eventual death and again, whole lot of army power for Boltons. I really liked this deconstruction of the Northmen because I too often felt that they’re a bit “idealized” compared to other kingdoms, not counting the Boltons. In fact, I think some northern deconstruction was already present in early seasons… such as those three soldiers who hanged those women from the tavern and eventually got killed by Brienne, and same with the change of Vargo Hoat to Locke… instead of vicious and sadistic sellsword company that originally worked for Tywin and switched sides, Locke and his men were simply part of the Northern army that actually originally fought for Robb’s cause but as Jaime got captured and we see scenes from his perspective, we see how brutal these men actually are and that not every northman is honorable like Ned was. And that’s all before Roose’s betrayal. So all in all, I like that S6 (and beyond) kept deconstructing the Northmen so they fit into this messed up world of GoT. But I very much like the idea that they wish to be an independent kingdom. I believe they’re way too different from the rest of the realm that they should be under rule of King’s Landing. In fact, I can say that the North, the Iron Islands and Dorne are the three kingdoms that I feel “should” definitely be independent in potentially bright future. The Stormlands, the Westernlands, the Crownlands, the Riverlands, the Vale and the Reach… for these I more imagine they can function as one joined kingdom. But for the North, Iron Islands and Dorne, I think the “right” way for these kingdoms to exist is being independent. Independent, but not hostile.
Young Dragon,
I think you’re taking Arya’s words too seriously. I sometimes call people “the nicest person I’ve ever met.” That isn’t necessarily true, that’s just my way of saying that they’re a nice person. Regardless, the point of this scene was to show solidarity between the Stark sisters and that there will be no more feuding. That’s it.
• Good point about the hyperbole. Okay, perhaps Arya overstated Sansa’s intelligence. Yet, didn’t she emphasize family solidarity in the same conversation when Jon said something like “I’m a Stark too” and Arya replied “Don’t forget that”?
• Anyway, after 7-8 seasons and however many years apart (since the last time they saw each other in S1e2), I guess I was hoping for a better, higher thread count, bookend scene for Jon & Arya. I was a bit disappointed that their reunion scene was truncated and quickly turned into a Sansacentric conversation.
• I think I mentioned a few days ago that since the last we saw Jon and Arya together, he was encouraging her to develop her fighting skills, e.g., in S1e2, giving her Needle, telling her how to use it (“First lesson. Stick ‘em with the pointy end” – ”I know how to use it”) and advising her she’d have to work at it every day; and in the first episode, he watched Arya showing up Bran at archery by zinging an arrow into the bullseye, it would have been more appropriate for Jon to be the one to witness Arya showing off her fighting skills in the sparring match with Brienne instead of or in addition to Pod, LF and Sansa. Likewise, it would have been meaningful or Jon to watch Arya slice and dice wights with her specially designed double-ended dragonglass-tipped spear. (What narrative purpose did it serve to have Davos look on? None that I could discern.)
• I admit that after watching the pre-S8 WF Crypts teaser, I was psyched to see Jon and Arya fight side by side. That could have and should have happened during “The Long Night.” It never did. I felt snookered by that teaser.
Jon didn’t even get to see Arya shank the Night King. Instead, Jon was hiding behind a rock and ducking out every now and then to yell at an undead dragon.
In the show – and I believe in the books as well – Jon is the one who encourages his little sister to pursue her interest in the martial arts.
. With the understanding that screen time was limited,” I just felt a little shortchanged by the S8 scripts that gave such short shrift to their relationship.
* To be clear, I’ve accepted the diminution of Jon & Arya’s relationship in S8 as the price to pay for the well-done conclusion to the Sandor & Arya story – with the exception of Sandor’s meaningless death in “Cleganebowl” in S8e5.
Mr Derp,
”Bran not only warged into the gentle giant, he also traveled in time to ruin Hodor’s life years earlier. Did Bran know then that he would become king? And what does this say about his not wanting it?”“
About as much as unhesitatingly accepting the offer of the crown with the answer “Why do you think I came all this way?”
Mr Derp,
Well Benioff said it wasn’t consensual when he gave a long interview for Dartmouth college.
Mr Derp,
Yea anything that writer writes I won’t take swro
Ten Bears,
Mr Derp,
Yea I disagree big time with all of that but ite written by Lili who I disagree with almost everything.And for every article like that I can find others saying the complete opposite.
Ten Bears,
Really because Lili the writer has said some really nasty things about D&D on social media she deleted most of it but she did say it and she’s not even a TV critic she writes about modern politics mostly.
Ten Bears,
Why didn’t she kill Ramsay then? Did you want her to march out to the battlefield where Ramsay was and kill him?
Adrianacandle,
I have read dozens of articles all saying it was wrong for the show to have Dany do what she did because they all claimed it was sexist and D&D are sexist.
Ten Bears,
The whole point of his death was that it was meaningless and that’s why it’s sad. He told Arya she still has a chance but he thinks he doesn’t. It’s sad but a fitting end.
Mr Derp,
I misspelled what I was saying I meant I don’t take that writer seriously because not because of those articles but when that same person takes to social media and says really nasty things then deletes them I tend to be turned off by anything they write even if it’s respectful because they then go on social media and are very disrespectful.
Yeah, I get it. It was too late for Sandor because revenge had consumed him.
I still wanted him to go out in a literal and figurative blaze of glory, maybe, for example, braving his fear of fire to save Arya, Sansa, or both at the expense of his own life.
⚠️ SanSan Fanfic Warning.
For me at least, considering Sansa & Sandor’s history together in KL in S1 & S2 (not to mention Sandor’s role in protecting her sister in S3 -S4, and then heeding the call that “cold winds are rising in the north” in S6 and joining Team Jon in S7 and Team WF in S8) their brief reunion in S8e4 was underwhelming.
Like the abbreviated Jon & Arya relationship in S8, I’ll chalk up the brevity of the Sansa-Sandor reunion to time constraints.
• So I suppose you’re right that it was a “sad but fitting end” for The Hound. Throwing his life away for nothing – Gregor wasn’t even Gregor anymore – wasn’t really even revenge.
• I had reconciled myself to the likelihood that Sandor wouldn’t make it out alive. He had sort of cheated death already, or to be more precise, he had been granted a temporary reprieve by the Lord of Light or “the gods” to fulfill their plans for him [per Beric in S3 and then Ray in S6) as well as the chance to “help more than you’ve harmed” [per Beric’s S6e8 assurance that “it’s not too late for you,” echoing Ray’s message that it wasn’t too late to start helping people).
For me, then, it was telegraphed pretty strongly that Sandor was living on borrowed time. Maybe he was right that it was “hate” that had kept him going, and therefore it was hate that consumed him and doomed him despite ditching his misanthropic world view and trying to help humanity.
Ten Bears,
Right but to me his comments to Sansa are very in character. It’s him deflecting how he actually feels. It’s like he masks this macho mentality to cover up his real feelings and it’s actually pretty sad. And I will say I saw very many survivors of abuse and rape defending that line Sansa said. I know others hated it and claimed the show was saying rape made her strong but for every person who said that there’s another person and survivor of abuse that loved the line. Everybody copes differently neither are right or wrong in how they viewed that line. However when people scream D&D think women need to be raped to be strong that’s I think taking it way too far.
Ten Bears,
With Brother Ray in season 6 saying it’s never too late to change you can see The Hound is thinking about it but then what happens the one guy who he might start viewing as a friend is brutally killed. So he then reverts back to all that hate again. It’s an endless cycle of violence that once your in it it’s almost impossible to escape. There’s a great paragraph from a critic I read about GOT that I think sums it up really well.” You can’t win a war. You can’t leave violence behind once you’ve held it, done it, sought out meaning through it. You can’t build a better world with fire and blood. The revenge Arya forsakes chases her into the streets of King’s Landing like a living thing, tearing buildings apart and boiling innocent people alive all around her. The childhood trauma the Hound confronts in the person of his towering brother is unkillable, shrugging off countless wounds as they fight over a childhood grievance on a staircase shattered at both ends and leading from nowhere to nowhere. That’s the whole story, I think — the pain of growing up and what we do to ourselves when we can’t get away from it”.
Young Dragon,
“Bran came up with the plan to put an end to the threat, and Arya carried it out.”
Huh?
• Bran’s wight hunt-level silly “plan” utterly bombed. Neither the two dragons or their riders defeated NK. Bran’s defensive line (Theon and a bunch of guys in raincoats) were wiped out. WF was overrun. Defeat was imminent.
The “bait” plan never made sense anyway. Why would NK care about erasing Bran’s “memories”? Folks could go to libraries and read books and scrolls written by people in the past.
Now, the show could have justified targeting Bran by hinting that Bran was on the verge of finding something in the past that would reveal the WWs’ fatal vulnerability, and NK knew Bran might find it. Nope. That never happened. Nor did Sam’s intellect or stolen books yield any clues. (Why did Sam even bother dropping out of school to go to WF? Jon didn’t “need” him. And it’s not like Sam was an indispensable asset on the battlefield.)
It made no sense that NK would personally stroll into the Godswood and lackadaisically saunter over to Bran. If getting hit by an errant Valyrian steel weapon or a lucky shot with dragonglass-tipped projectile could pulverize NK and his entire army, there was no reason for him to be anywhere near the battlefield.
Besides, at that point, if taking out an unarmed paraplegic in a wheelchair was an objective for whatever reason, QB NK could have handed off the ball to any of his lieutenants or a gaggle of wights to punch the ball in from the 1 yard line for the winning score. Instead, he throws an ill-advised pass that’s intercepted, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? WW fans watching at home or gathered at the Night Club getting ready to pop the champagne must have been devastated.
• Arya did not “carry out” the plan. She was never part of it.
She could have and maybe should have been a fail safe option: Had Arya made it known that she had successfully infiltrated House Frey, carved up Walder’s damn moron sons, cut Walder’s throat, and then snuffed out the rest of his treasonous brood, perhaps she would’ve been included in the bait plan. However, nobody knew of her exploits.
Similarly, had she divulged that she put on the hungry little girl act to whack the Frey doofus sitting around the campfire, with the Hound easily dispatching the other four Frey campers, maybe the WF battle council would have armed Sandor with a big f*cking Valyrian Steel sword* to go along with his dragonglass axe to back up Arya if she had to make a last ditch stealth assault on NK. That wouldn’t have been a bad contingency plan.
*(It’s not as if any of the Valyrian steel swordfighters really needed those weapons. As far as I could tell, Brienne/Oathkeeper, Jaime/Widow’s Wail, Jorah (Heartsbane) and Jon (Longclaw) didn’t use their swords to kill any WWs.)
In any case, Arya’s charge was not part of the bait plan. Melisandre, with a big assist from Beric (RIP) and Sandor (and lousy defensive play by the WW front seven) get the credit for the success of the Hail Mary play with 0:00 on the clock.
• I still don’t understand why Bran himself just sat there and spaced out, without ever trying to use his powers to help defend WF: At one point he warged a flock of birdies for some reason. I am still not sure why. He announced to Theon “I’m going to go now,” rolled back his eyes, and zoned out.
I thought it have been cool if Sam or someone at the WF aviary attached razor sharp dragonglass talons to ravens’ claws so Bran could send them tearing into wights and WWs. At least it would have given Bran and Sam something worthwhile to do.
Fire blood87,
”With Brother Ray in season 6 saying it’s never too late to change you can see The Hound is thinking about it but then what happens the one guy who he might start viewing as a friend is brutally killed. So he then reverts back to all that hate again. It’s an endless cycle of violence that once your in it it’s almost impossible to escape…”
I’m not saying you’re wrong, and I liked the paragraph from the critic you quoted (about cycles of violence).
However, I did think Sandor tried to change and did change, insofar as he accepted that violence was part of his world and trying to avoid it (e.g., by joining a pacifist commune) was impossible, but he could fight evil instead of perpetrating evil.
Here’s one of the scenes I was referring to:
S6e8, BwoB recruits Sandor
at 3:08
Sandor: “I tried joining. It didn’t work out for me.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMieq1tcBLg
at 4:29
Beric: “You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane. It’s not too late for you.”
Then, of course, there was that scene on the WF battlements in S8e2 when Arya can’t (yet) understand why Sandor joined the Brotherhood, went with Jon beyond the Wall, and was now in WF on the eve of the battle – since the “old” Sandor didn’t fight for anyone but himself.
Turning the other cheek just wasn’t an option. Similar to the critic you quoted, Brother Ray said
violence is a disease, and you don’t cure a disease by spreading it. As Sandor replied, you don’t cure it by dying either.
Mr Derp,
Continued from 6/21/21 at 2:45 pm
(My reply to your 12:13 Comment, in which I wrote):
TB: “What I found more interesting was your comment about Sansa’s inexplicable, immediate hostility to Dany:
(Mr. D) ”I assume this was D&D ATTEMPTING to show how Sansa was just so doggone smart that she saw everything playing out in her mind before anyone else did, but I can’t say for sure.”
TB Reply: “Oh Mr. D! You may have solved the Shrodinger’s Sansa Dichotomy and identified a critical “Conversation That Must Have Happened” offscreen!”
“to be continued…”
➖➖➖➖➖
Continuation from 6/21 at 2:45 pm:
As I imagine it, the conversation between Omniscient Bran and So Doggone Smart & Cunning Sansa that must’ve happened offscreen* went something like this:
Bran: “From my visions I can see that if I sit back and let things play out, when the dust settles I’ll be king. I’m just not sure how that can happen.”
Sansa: “But we’ve agreed that I’ll be Queen in the North, and you’ll be King of the remaining six kingdoms.”
Bran: “Right. Except I already told Jon he’s the heir to the Iron Throne.”
Sansa: “Don’t you worry about Jon. I’ll take care of everything. He’ll be gone.”
Bran: “What do you mean, ‘gone’? Exiled? Or executed?”
Sansa: “Who cares?”
………………
* For context – the June 21, 2016 article linked by Adrianacandle was titled:
Game of Thrones has a Sansa problem
Is Sansa Stark dim and virtuous or evil and cunning? She can’t be all those things.
June 21 2016
by Lili Loofbourow in The Week.com
Ms. Loofbourow posited: ”It’s as if we’ve been saddled with Schrodinger’s Sansa: she’s either Dim and Virtuous or Evil and Cunning. Right now — to everyone’s confusion — she’s both.”
In her case for “Evil and Cunning Sansa,” to explain Sansa’s actions at the Battle of the Bastards, Ms. Loofbourow reasoned:
“…Her arrival on the battlefield is not, in the Cunning Sansa timeline, a Proud Feminist moment. It indicates, rather, that Sansa is willing to sacrifice most of an army and both her surviving brothers in order to achieve her aims. Jon could have died 100 times before Littlefinger arrived, and Sansa would have been crazy to expect any other outcome. No, if this was a plan, then for Sansa, the death of two of her brothers was the price she was willing to pay. If this is what’s happening, then this isn’t even the beginning of Sansa’s descent into villainy; she’s been headed this way for some time and we missed it.
In another article, Ms. Loofbourow wrote about crucial Conversations that Must Have Happened (but were never shown or explained).
Adrianacandle,
Getting back on topic (HotD) – sort of – here’s a tidbit about Olivia Cooke:
Excerpts from
Review of “Ready Player One” by
Lili Loofbourow,
March 28, 2018
Summarizing the plot of “Ready Player One,” Ms. Loofbourow described the hero and his obsessive quest to solve a riddle posed by the inventor of a virtual reality world:
“In this, he is eventually joined by…his rival and love interest Art3mis (Olivia Cooke, who will win every Oscar someday — really, have you seen Thoroughbreds?).”
I have not seen “Thoroughbreds.” I just found it interesting that three years ago this critic was describing the actor who will soon be playing Alicent in such glowing terms.
Ten Bears,
But your basing everything on that what a person says before that means they must follow through with that.
Ten Bears,
But the show and the show runners have never once claimed it was a proud feminist move they were trying to project. The writer is projecting what she wanted it to be without stepping back and trying to understand the character isn’t her. It’s not about heading into villainy. Sansa is paranoid and wasn’t sure if she could trust the army would show up and if Jon would even be ok with it. She’s broken that’s why she was weary of Dany in season 8. Could she have been nicer to Dany absolutely but I understand what she’s doing. The writer is implying we missed her decent into madness? What madness? Did she also forget the scene where Sansa begs Jon to hold off on the battle. The writer is trying to have it both ways. The writer wants Trauma but doesn’t want the confusion that comes with it. All the trauma Sansa has been through made her skeptical and paranoid and I don’t blame her. It’s a terrible way to live life but I can understand it with what she’s been through.
Fire blood87,
Hey, I’m sorry. I should have posted the entire article instead of just an excerpt. Adrianacandle first linked the article in a Comment about two days ago. I’ll find the link and re-post it tomorrow.
The author was providing varying interpretations of what we saw on screen. I only excerpted one of them.
(Whether you agree with the writer or not, I thought the article was good reading.)
Fire blood87,
”But your basing everything on that what a person says before that means they must follow through with that.”
I am not sure what you mean. I thought we were talking about if and how Sandor had changed. What did a person “say” that he or she did or did not follow through with?
Ten Bears,
I wouldn’t have said no to more Jon and Arya screen time and I also wanted them to fight side by side at Winterfell. However, I don’t take points off the show for not giving me what I want, especially since what they did end up giving us was still fantastic.
I liked Jon’s and Arya’s reunion fine enough. It wasn’t as emotional as Jon’s and Sansa’s, but it was never going to be. The first Stark reunion was always going to be the best, so I tempered my expectations.
I agree that the Hound’s and Arya’s relationship was very well done, but the Hound dying for revenge was the point. At that point, he was consumed by revenge and was willing to die to achieve it, and he didn’t want Arya to suffer the same fate.
It’s the “do what I say, not as I do” approach, which was really the only issue I had with the Hound’s ending. I thought he went out with a blaze of glory, which was great, but part of me did think that it was a bit disingenuous to say one thing to Arya while doing the exact opposite himself.
I suppose it was already too late for the Hound. He was consumed by revenge by the end. Although, Sandor seemed to let it all go for a time while he was with Brother Ray.
Ten Bears,
That’s another thing about Bran. Why didn’t Bran use his powers to help out a little more?
He could’ve told Tyrion what Daenerys would do. Or spy on Cersei with one of his ravens and figure out her strategy. Or warg into a dragon and kill Daenerys. Or do something useful other than be bait.
Since the throne basically went to the person with the “best story” it would’ve been helpful to makes Bran the Blank’s story a little more interesting.
Ten Bears,
Are you kidding? If Bran didn’t use himself as bait, Westeros didn’t stand a chance. Because of Bran, the Night King was out in the open for Arya to knife him. The dragon fire plan wasn’t his. It was Jon’s, I think, and Theon volunteered to defend Bran.
Libraries and books can burn, but as long as Bran remained alive, the world’s memory would still exist. The Night King targeting Bran is consistent with his previous behavior. We saw him personally going after the previous Three Eyed Raven.
Thanks for this! I think this bodes well for HotD! 😀 Alicent would be quite a complex character and I’d love to see Cooke give her nuance and layers! I think Lena Headey did that for Cersei. Michelle Fairley warmed me up to Catelyn 🙂 Olivia Cooke can do great things for Alicent, I think.
Mr Derp,
I remember a interview with Isaac Hempstead Wright where he said Bran doesn’t exactly see the future but has inklings:
But of course….
There’s always the Evil Bran Mastermind theory where he wanted contenders for the throne to perform actions that would lead to their elimination so he’d get chosen king in their place but I truly don’t think that was the intended idea… 🙂 Admittedly, I have no idea how King Bran is supposed to work, even in the books but I’m doubtful he’ll get the throne after winning Best Story.
Adrianacandle,
It obviously was not the intended idea. I certainly agree with you there. I refer back to one of the articles I read yesterday:
“A generous interpretation would be that Bran is narrating destiny more than confessing that he wants the crown, but … haven’t we just been taught that rulers who believe they’re destined to rule become monstrous?”
It just feels a bit contradictory to me.
And yes, it’s not really clear what exactly Bran’s powers are. As far as I know, he can see visions of the future, he can literally travel into the past, and can see the present.
Mr Derp,
Oh yes, I agree.
Adrianacandle,
Now, when it comes to the future, that’s where Bran’s powers are particularly unclear.
I don’t entirely blame D&D for not going into specifics there. It would get complicated quickly. There’s already so many movies with different interpretations on traveling to the future:
“Terminator”, where it’s a one-way portal and no going back
“Back to the Future” rules where you can easily go back and forth as long as you don’t change anything
Or “Timerider” rules, which are just plain silly.
etc…
Mr Derp,
Yeah, anything exploring the mechanisms of time and working with that in any way but the natural linear-forward progression gets messy quickly. I know time travel is believed to be possible by some scientists but not within the same timeline, where you can only go forward in real-time. But it’s believed you can jump to any point on another timeline but once you’re at that point, you can only go forward from there. Also, it’s believed that traveling in space beyond the speed of light where you age much slower than everyone else on earth is a possible form of forward time travel as well. Works better than applying tretinoin every night 🙂
Mr Derp,
I was fine with it. The Hound had taken on the role of surrogate father, and it’s natural for parents to want their children to avoid making the same mistakes they did. The Hound was consumed by revenge. It was too late for him, but it wasn’t too late for Arya.
The time-traveling approach I’ve always loved is the “whatever happened happened” approach. The time-traveling when you can’t change any event in the past, present or future because this time traveling has always been part of the universe. For example, the character travels into the past, tries to change something but eventually realizes it was exactly their time-traveling that shaped the “present time story” (now being this character’s “past”) the way it always happened to them. Nothing gets erased, nothing gets changed… it happens exactly the way it always did.
Young Dragon,
Yea, I get that’s what was being conveyed. It generally worked ok for me too.
The only issue I had was that sometimes it felt like it was too late for Sandor while other times it didn’t.
For example, Sandor seemed consumed by revenge all the way through the point Brienne “killed” him. However, he seemed to have found some peace with the hippie commune. His unwavering need for revenge appeared to kick back in after Ray was killed.
I assume the need for revenge was there all along, but it did seem to peter out a bit to me in season 6. I wonder if Sandor would’ve felt the need for revenge had Ray not died. That seemed to be the catalyst for Sandor to seek revenge again.
Musical break 🤪
Mr Derp,
Exactly he ever referred to him as his friend after he died. I think that sent him spiraling back into anger and hate.
loco73,
Miley Cyrus again?
Yuck
Billy Ray Cyrus’s mullet?
In all seriousness, yea, I do.
You know, Cyndi Lauper was a pretty cool lady back in her day. She was involved with the WWF (now WWE). I think she used to be a manager for one of the female wrestlers during the ’80’s.
I just can’t stand her music.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”The time-traveling approach I’ve always loved is the “whatever happened happened” approach…”
Me too! (I suppose we can call it the 3ER “ink has already dried” approach). Traveling into the past to tweak something and thereby change the future can be interesting, but always felt like…cheating. Time travel movies that deal with what’s already happened and will always happen are more… [what’s the right word? “realistic”? “consequential”? “challenging”?]. Otherwise, you can conceivably go back and undo anything, and there are no stakes or consequences to any action.
As you indicated, the two approaches are the difference between one immutable timeline and various alternative timelines.
I still like the “Back to the Future” movies even though the premise was you can travel into the past to change the future…
• If you haven’t seen it yet, a movie that I liked that employed the “whatever happened, happened” approach you like is
. Good time travel movies establish “rules” and stick to them. This one did. For a loose GoT/ASOIAF connection,
Another movie I liked that didn’t involve actual time travel but was more like Bran’s avatar listening in as an observer of past events, rather than actually visiting and interfering in past events, was
Sorry this was so long. 😔 I had one more recommendation. Maybe later…
Hodor might tend to disagree with the 3Eyed Raven’s assessment that the ink is already dry. Didn’t Bran change things when he went into the past?
Mr Derp,
”You know, Cyndi Lauper was a pretty cool lady back in her day. She was involved with the WWF (now WWE). I think she used to be a manager for one of the female wrestlers during the ’80.
I just can’t stand her music.”
I used to feel the same way. Sort of. Until I found myself going down musical rabbit holes with the proliferation of music videos and live performances on YouTube over the past couple of years, coupled with the unforeseen spare time during the pandemic lockdowns. I wound up listening to songs I barely remembered, some I’d never heard, and some I’d only heard on a crappy car stereo.
Of course I remembered Cyndi Lauper’s bouncy song, “Girls Just Want to Have Fun.” I recognized her distinctive voice in a few seconds of “We Are the World.” I vaguely recalled a snippet from another bouncy song (that she “can’t stop messing with the danger zone.”) Combined with her wild orange and yellow hairdos, punk makeup, and mix-and-match wardrobe, I kind of dismissed her as a flash- in-the-pan novelty act from the 1980’s.
I was so wrong.* She’s an amazingly talented singer. The thick New Yawkaccent, professional wrestling shtick, and zany outfits and makeup all distract from her music. I had thought she disappeared after her mid- 1980’s heyday. I was wrong about that too. Plus, she’s one of a handful of performers who sound just as good if not better live than on their studio recordings.
It’s understandable that your initial impression was that you “can’t stand her music.” Indulge me, won’t you? Allow me to try to change your mind:
* “A man can only admit when he was wrong, and ask forgiveness.”
– Lord Glover, GoT S6e10
”That f*cking weather vane. Chickened out again.”
– Thoughts of Sansa Stark about Lord Glover, S8e2.
I thought Bran was always destined to fry young Hodor’s brain.
That may have been why 3ER took Bran back to past WF, and why 3ER told him: “Listen to your friend,” i.e., Meera’s voice. Past Wyllis’s brain had to be scrambled so present Hodor would carry Bran to the 3ER cave and sacrifice himself to “Hold the door!”
P.S. In light of Bran’s negligible contribution to the defeat of the AotD, I still wonder why it was so important for Hodor, Leaf, Summer, et al. to sacrifice their lives (and poor Meera had to pull ingrate Bran’s sorry a*s for miles) to ensure Bran could escape.
P.P.S. The Lord of Light provided real time visual intel on the AotD’s movements to the Lord’s Chosen – I mean Sandor Clegane – so who needed Bran and his surveillance birdies?
I’ve heard her stuff. I’m just not into pop music.
It’s all pretty confusing to me. It’s like a cyclical loop. Hodor wouldn’t have been affected by any of this had Bran not traveled in the past, no? Or would he? I feel like the only way to to turn Wylis into Hodor was by Bran traveling into the past?
Ten Bears,
Yes, I love “whatever happened happened” approach because it makes me feel everything that happens in life “matters” in some way. For better or for the worse. And that there’s no undoing of any past actions… everything somebody did, it’s part of their life and will stay with them forever. That’s why I love this approach. Entire 5th season of LOST focused on time-traveling and it followed the “whatever happened happened” principle (I actually got the name from one of its episodes) and my favorite episode from LOST actually deals with main character trying to “wipe out” their story but of course the whole plan massively backfires because they couldn’t change anything and with their attempt to prevent it, they actually caused what was always meant to happen. I think GoT dealt with this sort of time-traveling principle too considering it was Bran himself who caused Hodor losing his mind although in Bran’s case, he didn’t really physically travel back into the past. But the principle was similar.
I haven’t watched that movie yet but I may in near future. I usually enjoy anything that involves this time-traveling principle. Thank you for your suggestion!
Yes, Hodor lost his mind because Bran traveled back to the past. I believe it always happened this way. If Bran didn’t travel into the past, it would have never happened but the point is that Bran did travel into the past and it did happen and Three-Eyed Raven knew that it was going to happen, that’s why he took Bran to this point of the past. It’s like some sort of self-fulfilling loop. I
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That’s exactly what I mean. This seems like a case of traveling to the past to change the future…or present…I don’t know. It doesn’t seem to follow the “whatever happened happened” style of time travel. Bran’s actions specifically changed the course of history. At least, that’s how I interpreted it.
I would go to the “inside the episode” to get some better insight, but those tend to create more confusion rather than clear it up.
I don’t think Bran’s time-traveling “changed” the past. I think it was always part of this “universal timeline” (timeline that starts at point zero in the past and moves in linear manner into the future). Looking at it chronologically, Hodor/Wyllis lost his mind in youth because of Bran’s time-traveling to that point from the future. He grew up as Hodor and eventually died in Three Eyed Raven’s cage. That’s how the events happened to him in his life. In universal timeline, Hodor losing his mind happens chronologically earlier than Bran traveling back to the past. Same from Hodor’s character perspective because he never time-traveled himself. But from Bran’s perspective, causing Hodor to lose his mind happens “later” in his (Bran’s) life because he jumped back into the past from the future and caused it (or present, however you want to name it). In Bran’s life, these events happened later but in this universal chronological order, Hodor losing his mind happens multiple years before Bran was born and it happened because Bran would at one point in his life time-travel to that point and cause it. That’s how I see the “whatever happened happened” time-traveling. Any time traveling that happens, it was always part of the timeline.
No! My goodness, how silly of me…I once again inadvertently insulted your musical tastes! Oh yeah, I forgot…I don’t care…
loco73,
Usually the point of posting random off-topic songs on a GoT message board is for other posters to actually enjoy.
Otherwise, not only is your post off topic, but it’s completely pointless.
I don’t like TB’s musical interludes either, but we still manage to have a laugh about it. If you don’t want the criticism then don’t put it out there for others to consume.
• I do try to give an alert ( ⚠️) and use spoiler coding so anyone who’s not interested can skip them.
• Also, I do make an effort to connect the lyrics or title to a character or event on GoT.
• Yeah, we do manage to have a laugh about them. 😜
• In all seriousness, if there are bands and songs you really like, I’d be interested in recommendations. I try to keep an open mind. I listen to whatever loco73 posts for that reason.
• As for Miley Cyrus…
Here is more insulting music so that Mr. Derp De Derp can spew his mindless drivel… sorry”criticism”, because “reasons”… yuck and all that…
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Yes! I think that explains it. (I did not realize until you laid it all out that “Hodor losing his mind happens multiple years before Bran was born.”) Strange though that Hodor’s backstory was unknown to Bran – i.e., that Hodor used to be able to talk – until he “visited” past WF in S6.
Perhaps nobody wanted to bring up that young Wyllis had suffered an unexplained seizure that left him brain damaged?
P.S. I’ve said before and I’ll say again: “The Door” was a f*cking great episode. Plus, for once, a big reveal caught book readers by surprise just like the rest of us. 😩 (I don’t count the Shireen BBQ.)
Wah, wah, wah…
And the insulting yucky music continues…oh no…
loco73,
You sure are acting awfully petulant and passive aggressive for someone who claims to not care about my opinion.
At least you finally posted a good song! (Queen)
Mr Derp,
”I’ve heard her stuff. I’m just not into pop music.”
• Have you heard “Memphis Blues”?
• What do you like?
Oh no! Not again!
Sorry where you saying something?! All I heard was blah, blah…oh yeah and I still don’t care…
As far as my personal musical tastes or do you mean Cyndi’s catalog?
I recall the song in Goonies was kinda funky that she did. I don’t claim to have heard ALL of her songs, but I’ve heard a lot of it. It’s just too much “bubble gum pop” for my tastes. I do have a lot of respect and admiration for her as a human being though.
My personal tastes are a little heavier, but I do enjoy all kinds of music other than pop. Hell, I’m sure there’s a few guilty pleasure pop songs that I’d never want to admit to liking, but it’s just not my thing in general.
I used to hate Country Music until I saw Ken Burns’ documentary on Country Music. I still don’t like most of it, but I’ve grown to appreciate some such as Waylon Jennings, always liked Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, etc…
If I had to pick a favorite band it would be Tool. They have a unique style. It’s mostly heavy, but with a lot of melody. I play bass, so I tend to gravitate towards bands with really good bass players. Justin Chancellor from Tool is incredible.
I enjoyed the Queen and Pearl Jam selections above, too.
I won’t be IGNORED, Dan!
https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o6ZsZdSYO2P4rvUOc/giphy.gif
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”I haven’t watched that movie yet but I may in near future. I usually enjoy anything that involves this time-traveling principle. Thank you for your suggestion!”
• I assume you were referring to
I won’t reveal anymore.
• 🚨 Tinfoil Alert: I believe that “future time travel” will someday be possible, not by traveling close to the speed of light or through wormholes, but
Lots of sci-fi space movies (e.g., “Aliens” and “2001: A Space Odyssey,” I think) have used the suspended animation/deep sleep trope to enable their fictional crews to travel to faraway planets without aging during the fifty or more years it’d take to get to their destination and back again. For the crew members it’s equivalent to time travel into the future.
Along those lines, if you’re interested, there was a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, the S1 finale, that had an entertaining take on cryonic (by freezing) preservation.
(to be continued)
Mr Derp,
Thanks! Off the top of your head, can you name the top 5 Tool songs (studio or live) you suggest I should listen to?
Event Horizon is another example. Underrated movie, IMO.
That’s tough. Here’s 6 and I could barely narrow it down to 6:
46 & 2
Eulogy
Aenema
Pushit (Live Version)
Lateralus
Pneuma
If you want something on the softer side:
Wings for Marie/10,000 Days
If you want something on the heavier side:
Hooker with a Penis
They’ve also done a cover of Led Zeppelin’s “No Quarter”, which is amazing.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
(Continued from earlier…)
FYI re: Time Travel/Cryonics
Star Trek: The Next Generation, S1e26 “The Neutral Zone” (Season 1 finale)
aired 5/16/1988
(Three cryonically preserved people from the 20th century wake up 370 years in the future)
Premise:
The Starship Enterprise discovers a disabled 20th century earth satellite containing three people placed in cryonic stasis immediately upon their deaths centuries earlier: a wealthy Wall Street fatcat who died of advanced cardiomyopathy; a young mother who died suddenly of an embolism (and had no idea her husband would have her frozen); and a party animal musician (played by character actor Leon Rippy) who died from “massive chemical abuse,” i.e., he went out the way King Robert wanted: drinking, drugging and whoring himself into an early grave.
The three cryonically preserved bodies are brought aboard, their diseased organs are repaired, they’re revived, and they woke up in the year 2,364 – for them, 370 years in the future.
The episode was an entertaining character study of how each one reacts to traveling hundreds of years into the future.
The rich fatcat/control freak is proud of himself for buying his way out of death but then is disoriented to find himself in a world where people no longer strive to accumulate material possessions and money. The young mother is distraught that her two sons and everyone else she loved died hundreds of years earlier.
And the party animal musician takes it all in stride: “It’s the same dance. Just a different tune.”
Following are three brief spoiler-free clips:
• “Welcome to the 24th century”
[1:57 long] (three survivors revived)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUnjRZNurNs
• Crew explains things to the three people
[3:27 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg9eyqAp9yg
🚀
Third clip to follow…
(Continued from 7:57 pm)
Third clip
• Data & Sonny (Leon Rippy) compilation [5:03 long] – (Ignore YouTube poster’s irrelevant commentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPM5NqkCMPY
🍸
Mr Derp,
Thanks! I’ll check out the six you selected: 46 & 2, Eulogy, Pushit (Live Version), Lateralus, and Pneuma; and the seventh “on the softer side,” Wings for Marie/10,000 Days.
Adrianacandle,
And the fish would light up in mighty fiery bioluminescence.”
Something like this, but in red?
[1:23 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ08UJ8QNtg
🐬 🐬
Ten Bears,
(and yes!)
The Hodor/Bran thing is known as a “causal(ity) loop”, sometimes also called a “predestination paradox”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop
Bran’s psychological time-travelling didn’t change the course of history. His actions caused history to take the course it always had.
If thinking about this stuff gives you a headache…well, a certain female Star Trek captain famously made a similar comment 😉
A few points in response to earlier comments on this thread about Bran’s role in the “big picture” sequence of events: Some of you may remember a conversation I had on this site a while back about GoT’s parallels with real-world mythological epics. GRRM hasn’t drawn on just Western sources of inspiration; the story has strong parallels with India’s Mahabharata epic too:
+ “Good and evil on both sides”.
+ A family of 5 heroic-but-flawed aristocratic male protagonists, one of whom is an invincible warrior.
+ The secret parentage of one of the most noble guys.
+ Lengthy exile from their own kingdom (during which a member of the extended family who will be lethal in combat has to remain disguised).
+ A female relative who is humiliated by the family’s adversaries, which acts as a major catalyst in broader events (she eventually exacts a very, very bloody and horrific revenge upon the main culprit).
+ This parallel is key to understanding Bran’s role: An omniscient semi-divine male relative who mostly remains detached but occasionally nudges things along, controversially doesn’t stop the carnage despite having supernatural knowledge about the massive bloodshed on the horizon, had a childhood in an idyllic woodland area (re: godswood), has a detailed “private conversation” about himself with a major character before one of the main conflicts, is one of few “good guys” left alive at the end, whose own lineage is effectively wiped out (at least in terms of male relatives and potential patrilineal descendants), and basically withdraws from the situation at the end in order to let the surviving good guys rule without any further direct involvement from himself.
That’s from Hindu mythology. Bran’s “spiritual development” arc draws considerably from Buddhism too, in terms of a “chain of enlightened and detached Buddhas”, the whole “third eye” thing, major enlightenment at a tree, etc. So GRRM seems to have based Bran’s story to some extent on a combination of myths about Krishna and Buddha.
This doesn’t necessarily mean Bran’s actions are always entirely correct or rational. Perhaps they’re not supposed to be interpreted as such, or perhaps it’s just a reflection of the mythological sources GRRM has drawn from. There is plenty of questionable behaviour on the part of supposed heroes and divine/semi-divine figures in the Trojan War myth too, of course — but again, the reader isn’t meant to accept all that uncritically. I think GRRM has tried to create his own version of those epic stories, and that’s reflected in aspects of Bran’s characterisation too.
A more unusual break, one of the best scenes in “Star Trek”. This particular scene is from what still remains my favourite of the Trek shows, “Deep Space Nine”. From the episode “In The Pale Moonlight”. Captain Sisko’s ending monologue about the ends justifying the means in a time of war. “In The Pale Moonlight” is considered by many to be of the finest episodes from all the Trek shows (and television in general).
loco73,
Ooh. That was good. (I’m a Trek fan, but didn’t watch the entire run of Deep Space 9.)
“But the most damning thing about it is…
I think I can live with it.”
Captain Sisko
loco73,
The best scene from the best episode of the best Star Trek show.
Absolutely.
Jai,
I don’t know about that. ”The best scene from the best episode of the best Star Trek show”?
I liked
Spoiler Alert! 🚨
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLc-esesJFE
Speaking of spoilers, I recently saw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHMti7u9TBE
It’s as if Game of Thrones did a sequel series picking up twenty years or so after the events of S8, with that ol’ rascal/frenemy the Lord of Light making a guest appearance.
But could Bran really see the future? I thought he could only really see the past and then only through what the Weirwood trees could see? So much clarification/ambiguity which opens up a lot of possibilities but I am for now at least assuming he could only see backwards and even then he couldn’t immediately access everything in his database.
Jon Snowed,
Yes, Bran can see the future. At least, portions of it. He saw Dany flying over KL. I mean, he also knew he’d be needed at the dragonpit to be named king.
He does not need a weirwood tree. He was seeing visions of the future without one.
loco73,
Semi-On Topic/Off-Topic Question
(re: “Divisive” Ending of Season 8 of Got, and
Star Wars sequels)
I stopped watching the Star Wars sequels after the dreadful “The Force Awakens” (TFA).
Q: The last time I saw Emperor Palpatine, in one of the first Star Wars movie twenty or thirty years ago, he was electrocuting Luke Skywalker on the precipice of a landing or scaffolding high above a furnace or power plant, when Darth Vader/Anakin had a change of heart, grabbed Palpatine, and threw or pushed him off the scaffolding and down into the blazing inferno.
I thought I saw Palpatine falling and falling until he was consumed by the ball of fire at the bottom. No doubt about it. He was vaporized.
That was the end of Palpatine.
And the decision to immolate his master or lord had (to have) permanence to be consequential.
Yet, from my second-hand understanding of the story lines of the post-TFA movies, Palpatine somehow returned.
[Aside from the “it was all a dream” or “I faked my own death” or “that was my imposter or evil twin who died” cliches]:
Is it narratively acceptable to bring back to life a character the audience saw fall to his fiery death with their own eyes?
Or, like some of the Stannis lives! hype, is a character never conclusively dead unless and until: (a) his lifeless corpse is shown onscreen; and (b) it is expressly confirmed that the Lord of Light declined to resurrect him?
Can any presumed dead character therefore be brought back for a sequel if the studio deems it profitable?
Asking for a friend
Mr Derp,
Yeah, my impression was that Bran got glimpses, fragments and hazy premonitions of the future. I wish the show had articulated this better.
I had thought Bran was supposed to be a “greenseer” like Jojen Reed. Jojen told Locke he “saw” Locke’s bones burning in the (near) future. Jojen saw a clear vision of the 3ER cave. And I thought 3ER confirmed that Jojen knew he’d die on the mission to help Bran, but decided to go anyway.
Bran’s “slide show” of future images didn’t seem to have much value: They apparently depicted, among other things, wildfire raging through a tunnel, and the shadow of a dragon flying over KL. but nothing that Bran ever interpreted or divulged to anyone.
For all of the negligible contributions of Bran the Useless to the fights against the AotD and Cersei, 3ER should have chosen Jojen as his successor and let the screeching wights turn Bran into confetti.
⛔️ Caveat: Bran-Bashing to follow.
Bran was best qualified to be chosen as if king because he supposedly had the “best story” and yet:
• He disappeared entirely for all of S5.
• In S6 his juvenile unauthorized joyriding deactivated the Cave shields, caused the deaths of Hodor, Summer, Leaf et al., and got Bran a wrist stamp to drink alcohol at the Night Club.
• In S7 he used his time- and place- visions to (a) perv on his sisters; and (b) parrot other characters’ catch phrases back to them (e.g., “chaos is a ladder” and later, “the things we do for love”). He let LF run rampant in WF, without ever uncovering LF’s shenanigans (until the last minute, apparently, in a deleted scene).
• In S8 he warged a flock of birds.
• As others have pointed out, he did nothing to warn of Cersei’s ruses or strategies; he did nothing to forestall the mass incineration of KL’s civilians; and his silly “bait plan” was a fiasco.
The best story? Really?
Under that standard, Hot Pie was more qualified than Bran the Useless. After all, had it not been for Hot Pie’s intervention at the literal and figurative crossroads in S7e2, Arya would have headed south instead of going north to Winterfell to obtain her VS Dagger in S7 so she could pulverize the AotD in S8. Hot Pie survived more perils than Bran, and unlike Bran did not sacrifice any of his companions along the way. In S4e7 Hot Pie showed more courage sticking his neck out to try to help his friend by divulging key intel – something Bran never did despite his purported omniscience. Come to think of it,
Jai,
”I think GRRM has tried to create his own version of those epic stories, and that’s reflected in aspects of Bran’s characterisation too.”
Interesting analysis of Bran’s characterization. However, with the understanding that I’m a pre-books, show-only fan, doesn’t the Zen Bran characterization factor in Bran’s show-only passivity? I thought the books left off with Bran starting his tutelage with the 3ER, so his resultant powers have yet to be revealed. Am I wrong?
Was a disinterested “let sh*t play out without getting involved” attitude on Bran’s part ever hinted at in the books?
On a trivial semi-related note, early on in GoT when we were shown Bran’s “slide show images,”
Was there ever any “purpose” for the image of Ned?
I think that’s right. We don’t really know what 3RBran will look like in the books. As of ADWD, Bran has only just met the Three-Eyed Crown/Brynden, who begins to teach Bran and feeds him Jojen- er, weirwood paste 🙂
Ten Bears,
Adriana is far more familiar with the books than I am, so I suspect she’s (again) the best person to ask about this stuff.
Ten Bears,
Imagine that you see your own future, including the part that you don’t do a thing in this future and at the same time, you know you can’t change anything and that everything you see must happen exactly as you saw. Predestination paradox and I’m sure that Bran as Three-Eyed Raven knew about predestination more than anyone. That’s why predestination and “whatever happened happened” time traveling can be very controversial among audience… because it develops the idea that the events are “decided beforehand”. Living in a present, it’s easy and likely even comforting to believe we make our own journey with our own choices and I believe it’s good we don’t have any access to seeing the past or future, because we may end up doing the best about ourselves exactly because we don’t know where our life journey is taking us. What’s the actual truth… is our life predestined or not, that we don’t know and will likely never know. And it’s very good that we don’t know I believe.
My own theory: Bran obtained the mind and power that is “too much” to be an active part of life itself. Just like White Walkers were too destructive force to be allowed to exist and had to be eradicated, just like dragons were too powerful beings in the arms of a human and had to disappear from Westeros, Bran’s Three-Eyed-Raven mind is too powerful to be shared with people in Westeros and with us as audience. I believe that what he is is beyond our understanding and the only reason he can exist in the world without completely disrupting the balance of life is that he keeps powers to himself for majority of the time and doesn’t get involved. I believe being a Three-Eyed Raven is a big deal, so much of a big deal that we’re not allowed to understand it. This is just a theory of mine though.
Ten Bears,
First, thanks Jai 🙂 I admit, though, that I don’t think I have a great answer to this I’m afraid 🙁
As far as I can recall, I don’t think there’s anything hinting at a disinterested robot-like character for Bran. Brynden, the current 3ER, isn’t emotionless or disinterested. He does warn Bran that he cannot change the past though.
Here are some passages you may find relevant:
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”Imagine that you see your own future, including the part that you don’t do a thing in this future and at the same time, you know you can’t change anything and that everything you see must happen exactly as you saw.”
Right. I get it. If the show had at least hinted at that with respect to Bran, I could buy into his disinterested, non-involvement attitude, e.g., “King’s Landing has to burn, and there’s nothing I can do to stop it.” Perhaps a callback to 3ER 1.0’s “the ink has already dried” mantra would have helped. I don’t know.
There was a very brief moment in S7e4, when Bran gave Arya the VS dagger, that it looked like he had some kind of premonition that this was a momentous event. (It looked like he recoiled, as if the knife was red hot.) If he had said something like “you were meant to have it” rather than “it’s wasted on a cripple,” I could more readily buy into Bran’s prescience.
”My own theory: Bran obtained the mind and power that is “too much” to be an active part of life itself…Bran’s Three-Eyed-Raven mind is too powerful to be shared with people in Westeros and with us as audience. I believe that what he is is beyond our understanding and the only reason he can exist in the world without completely disrupting the balance of life is that he keeps powers to himself for majority of the time and doesn’t get involved. I believe being a Three-Eyed Raven is a big deal, so much of a big deal that we’re not allowed to understand it.”
I like your theory. The writers should have consulted with you.
Still, the show gave us something similar with the Lord of Light, e.g., Kinvara insisting to a dubious Varys that things “happen for a reason”; Beric telling Sandor in S6e8 that “the Lord of Light gave you the power to defeat me for a reason,” and “we’re here for a reason” but then when Sandor asked in S7e1 why the Lord kept bringing him back, Beric admitted “I don’t know.” (That was followed by Sandor’s classic retort: “If he’s so all powerful why doesn’t he just tell you what the f*ck he wants?”)
A few lines by Bran or a brief scene illustrating that he was aware his 3ER-powered knowledge was beyond human understanding and that it was imperative that he not get involved (to avoid disrupting the space-time continuum or something like that), aligning with your theory, would have been better (in my view) than portraying Bran as a non-factor in the key events and inexplicably failing to use those powers we knew he had (e.g., real time, world wide surveillance, and tripping into the past.)
That he was still developing his powers and had to learn how to focus them was a decent plot device. Even so, if he could bother watching Sansa’s horrific wedding night, and Arya chatting with Hot Pie at the Crossroads, it’s strange that he didn’t devote his time and energies to “big ticket” items, e.g., what Cersei was scheming or what LF was up to right under his nose. (LF lied to his face in S7e4, denying any knowledge about who the dagger belonged to, yet Bran never exposed him.)
If the knowledge of Bran nka 3ER 2.0 is beyond human understanding, and his function is to sit back and watch predestined events play out without saying or doing anything… well, that’d make him a sh*tty king, and a waste of screen time.
Whinge Alert:
Adrianacandle,
Brynden to Bran: “… a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.”
Well then, one would think Brynden/3ER 1.0 would gaze into the distant past to find out how the (alleged) first Long Night ended, and impress upon his designated successor the importance of using their access to the “gates” to learn how humans overcame the Others the first time around since a new invasion was imminent.
Unless of course there never really was a first “Long Night”…
👨🚀 (Me in Tinfoil helmet)
You know, I think Isaac Hempstead Wright gave his thoughts on that if it’s any help (but he also says it’s conjecture on his part):
____
Maybe that’s meant to come in the continuously promised unpublished books that we’ll never get 🙂
Oh, I actually need to buy tinfoil at the grocery store tonight! I nearly forgot! And then I would have been pissed because 36+C temperatures are coming and I’m not going out in that. Regardless, thanks for the inadvertent reminder, TB!
Mr Derp,
”I used to hate Country Music until I saw Ken Burns’ documentary on Country Music. I still don’t like most of it, but I’ve grown to appreciate some such as Waylon Jennings, always liked Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, etc…”
Well then, I’ll let you choose the musical interjection I’ll use when debates get a little too heated, or it seems we’re all beating a dead horse.
In the past I’ve used “Let It Go” – Maisie Williams’s 2020 Audi Super Bowl Commercial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB2RwDokNMY
In light of your new-found appreciation for Country Music, would you prefer Willie Nelson singing the Gershwin tune, “Let’s Call the Whole Thing Off” (live, 2016)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJq1NCCvICU
🍅 🥔
Adrianacandle,
As long as the tinfoil you buy
There’s an easy method to form a “half funnel” out of heavy duty tinfoil with a vertical channel running down the middle. You spray some paint near the wide top of the half funnel, and in a few seconds it starts to drip down into a small jar you place at the bottom. It takes two minutes, and is simpler than it sounds. (It helps to first wrap the rim and outside of the jar with foil, paper or plastic to keep them free of errant paint.)
The other alternative, affixing one end of a short length of a bendable straw or tube to the spray can nozzle, and placing the other end into the mouth of a glass jar, takes a lot more time – and unless you leave the lid off the jar for several hours to let the aerosol bleed out when you’re done, you can get an unpleasant surprise when you open the jar: exploding paint and splatters everywhere. (I think I mentioned this a while back.)
Adrianacandle,
“Well then, one would think Brynden/3ER 1.0 would gaze into the distant past to find out how the (alleged) first Long Night ended.”
”Maybe that’s meant to come in the continuously promised unpublished books that we’ll never get 🙂”
I’m still sticking* with my speculation that the reveal in S6e5 that the CotF created the White Walkers/Others – along with the origin of “Hodor” – came straight from GRRM. There was really no reason for the showrunners to throw in this detail on their own, was there? It had no bearing on the outcome of the WW story on the show, and was never brought up again after S6e5 as far as I recall.
Ten Bears,
There could be quite a few reasons. We’re missing so much information. We’re neither in the writers’ heads, GRRM’s head, and don’t have both stories containing the origins or “why” of the Other vs. the WW to compare and contrast as we’re missing the book counterpart. As discussed prior, they did change some aspects of this story from the books. For one, it was made more corporeal and action-based to provide a more tangible enemy. In the books, the Others are elusive, mysterious, unknown. The Others also aren’t dead but alive. GRRM said we’d be learning more in the next book. That’s pretty much all we know. The magical aspects of the series were greatly toned down from the books to the show.
I just don’t think it’s likely that there was never no Long Night v1, I’m sorry. I’ve given you my reasons before and I can again but I’m not sure how much good that’ll do. I think many details and pieces of the first Long Night have been lost due to time, distorted, etc. but entirely different cultures around Planeteos report the same event as happening around the same time and they’ve come up with their own legend for it. Something significant happened back then to result in these legends, similar reports, and the erection of the Wall — another magical event not quite understood. If you read the books, Ten Bears, I think you’d have a nice time coming up with theories based on the book details. I understand why you don’t want to but I think missing this material can hinder book speculation.
I’m afraid we keep circling on this topic though :/
Ten Bears,
Wow!!!! Thanks for this!
I believe GRRM has indicated that while one of his twists involved Hodor, he plans to do it a bit differently from how it was done on the show:
Adrianacandle,
Yeah, I was surprised when I first read that someone just sprayed paint on tinfoil.
I’ve never understood why
Maybe it’s economical to buy large drums or cans of brush-on paint e.g., for painting entire rooms, as opposed to “hobby size” bottles. I wouldn’t know.
Adrianacandle,
You quoted GRRM… “In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to ‘hold the door’ is more like ‘hold this pass’ — defend it when enemies are coming — and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.”
Hmmm. That sounds like GRRM plans to have Bran actively warging Hodor to fight off wights at the door, rather than on the show when Hodor pushed against the door with his body to keep the door closed. In the show it wasn’t entirely clear if Hodor was consciously sacrificing himself; I thought he was. I didn’t see his eyes rolled back in his head like he usually looked when Bran took over his body.
I bring this up because if book! Bran takes control of Hodor to use him as a puppet for Bran’s swordfighting, that would mean Bran would be overriding Hodor’s free will. That in turn would detract from show! Hodor’s heroism – and feed into the Evil Bran characterization.
If book! Bran does pull such a stunt, he’d better have a better justification for commanding Hodor to “hold the door” than for Bran to save his own skin simply so he can become king at the end.
It was already tempting to label show! Bran a selfish pr*ck for endangering his comrades, zoning out while they died fighting – even his puppy for god’s sake !!! – and then sledding off while Hodor got torn to shreds to enable Bran to escape. It didn’t help when he could offer only an insincere, half-hearted expression of gratitude when Meera called him out for being a heartless jerk. [Bran: “I’m not Brandon Stark anymore. Not really.” Meera (thinking): “That’s your excuse? F*ck you.” Meera’s spoken reply: “You died in that cave.”]
If book! Bran
– End (This Installment of) Bran-Bashing Rant –
Adrianacandle,
Sorry about that. I will try to lay out my multilayered ultra-thick tinfoil theory for you, and why it’s consistent with the books’ historical accounts, e.g., similar stories in different cultures. I didn’t mean to prompt you to repeat yourself.
(Geez, I wouldn’t want to slag myself with 🎶“Let’s Call the Whole Thing Off”.)
It’s hard for me to say either way because I’ve yet to read what GRRM has in mind. I don’t know where Bran’s head will be at, where Hodor’s will be, or the exact circumstances. Bran’s also only 8 or 9 at this point too and may not understand the extent of the impact this has on Hodor — but an incident like this may clue Bran in.
That said, it’s already noted Hodor doesn’t like being warged by Bran and while Bran has noticed this, he doesn’t seem to understand why Hodor reacts the way he does or how much of a violation it is:
Warging into another person is also considered an abomination:
I’d also like to point out that Bran has likely eaten people too 🙂
_____
Similar discussions are bound to happen, especially with the books
and book spec 🙂
This isn’t to put you off your own theory but these are some of the reasons I have trouble with it and why I have trouble buying into it. At the risk of annoying you, I also really encourage you to read the source material — maybe your theory does have legs that I’m not seeing but I think reading the source material may help develop those.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for these tips!
As for the price disparity, might it be due to a difference in formulation? How far the paint goes? Concentration of pigments? Hobby paint (like the Folk Art brand you find at Michael’s) is pure crap and even $1 is too much to pay for it. However, I’ve spent $20 on an itsy bitsy tube of watercolour paint and it was worth every penny 🙂
Adrianacandle,
You no longer
Ten Bears,
Adrianacandle,
”The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do.”
Evil Bran confirmed.
Ten Bears,
Warging into Hodor may come with consequences, as it is a huge no-no among skinchangers in the books.
I’m partly posting as an experiment to see if I can link a different email.
Prequels SOMETIMES work – all the Dr Syn books after the first are prequels. Dr Syn died at the end of the first book and the writer only intended for there to be one novel at first.
Hello, ’tis I the Dame of Mercia. I tried to change the email address linked to my name but my post went into cyberspace so I’m re-joining with another ID. I had said that some prequels work and gave the example of Dr Syn. Russell Thorndike originally intended the first book to be standalone and killed off Dr Syn at the end. When the story proved popular and people wanted more the subsequent books had perforce to be prequels.
Milady of the Midlands,
I’m not familiar with Russell Thorndike or the Dr. Syn novel(s). I assume Dr. Syn was the hero or protagonist.
Question: Did the fact that the author “killed off Dr. Syn at the end” [of the original book, intended to be a standalone] dampen the fandom’s enthusiasm for the prequels?
I’m a sucker. I don’t like it when the hero dies at the end of a movie or book. He or she should ride off into the sunset as the credits roll or the next page reads “The End.” The only permissible exception is if the hero knowingly sacrifices his life to save the planet. I’m sure I‘ve missed out on lots of good literature, films and TV shows because I learned the hero gets killed off at the end.
The worst thing is when an otherwise enjoyable movie is ruined when the hero dies for no reason in the last five minutes. Worst Offender
Personally, I’d rather rewatch
for the 50th time than dive into a book or TV series that ends with the killing off of the protagonist.
(I’m sounding like the angry book reader Kathy Bates played in “Misery,” aren’t I?)
Adrianacandle,
• That passage you quoted (Bran’s internal monologue about borrowing Hodor’s body) is written by GRRM as if in the twisted mindset of a pedophile, excusing his own brutality while objectifying his traumatized prey (”the child-man whose flesh he’d taken” because he “just want[ed] to be strong again for a while.”)
That choice of images and words had to be deliberate on GRRM’s part.
• You also wrote: “Warging into Hodor may come with consequences, as it is a huge no-no among skinchangers in the books.”
That would be nice. In the show, Bran didn’t face any consequences for violating Hodor’s mind and body. He didn’t express even a twinge of regret or guilt, as he demonstrated in his farewell scene with Meera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtI3mxhZNy0
He fried an innocent boy’s brain, and then years later skeedaddled while imploring (or commanding ?) that grown up boy to stay behind to get torn apart by ghouls.
Assuming book! Bran becomes 3ER 2.0 and then king, if he’s as devoid of empathy and compassion as show! Bran, and treats people like animals (e.g., book! Bran likening warged Hodor to “a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him”), I wonder how that will make him monarch material?
At the very least, one would expect that in the books we’ll never see, there would be some price to pay for the “huge no-no” committed by Bran.
Ten Bears,
I believe Bran has already committed two of the three abominations of the skinchanger…. law(?) He’s warged into another person and he’s eaten people flesh. So that’ll be interesting on what kind of consequences befall that. I think there need to be consequences.
Bran is around 8-9 years old at this time. I don’t think he really understands what he’s doing to Hodor yet and has no guidance around warging. Regardless, it is still a violation — both of Hodor’s body and of the skinchanger code. I wonder if these descriptions of Hodor’s behavior when Bran wants to warg him are meant to illustrate why it’s the worst abomination of the three (warging into another person, cannibalism, mating with a wolf while warged into a wolf) considering what a violation and how traumatizing it is.
I honestly have zero ideas on how this is going to happen, just that it’s supposed to happen in the books too. Of course, I’m no theory crafter 🙁
Milady of the Midlands,
Hello Milady, formerly Dame 🙂
Hi everyone, just thought i’d pop in to see how everyone is doing? Has anyone managed to fill the hole left by GOT yet? I’ve been catching up on fantasy novels, I stopped reading them for 10 years or so (ASOIAF got me back into them). Battled my way through Dune recently, although that’s maybe more sci fi? I’ve been reading a lot of Brandon Sanderson as well. He’s not a florid writer like GRRM, but he comes up with some incredible concepts, really interesting to read his books. And there are a lot
Actually the Dame may be okay. In brief I’d left one of my real life email addresses on a forum which pertains to conspiracy. The lady who co-ordinates it has kindly deleted the comment and the email address but I think I went into panic overdrive in case in case I got unpleasant emails from people holding a different opinion.
About Dr Syn, the original story was told by Russell Thorndike to his sister, Sybil. He later wrote the tale as a novel (circa 1915). In the book Dr Syn is a somewhat dark – grey at best – character but the Disney adaptation made him less so. Russell Thorndike may have been surprised by the popularity of the book and the only way to write more was to write prequels. I wouldn’t say book Dr Syn was a ‘hero’, certainly not in the conventional sense.
I can’t find the details of how the late Russell Thorndike (actor and writer) came to tell the story to his sister. Of course pre the internet and TV people were left to create their own amusement. I found a site about the Dr Syn novels which isn’t too spoilery. (I rather liked the idea of real life Dymchurch having a “day of sin” every two years. https://theromneymarsh.net/drsyn
And here (a few minutes into the clip) is a clip of Dame Sybil Thorndike in ‘The Prince and the Showgirl’ https://youtu.be/49_QRU7NSYs Dame Sybil was positive about her impressions of Marilyn Monroe but I couldn’t find anything with decent sound quality.
So the GRRM has a new (hmmmm) interview out:
https://www.indiewire.com/2021/06/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-ending-winds-of-winter-1234647104/
One of the old…but familiar refrains, is here as well:
“Looking back, I wish I’d stayed ahead of the books,” Martin said. “My biggest issue there was when they began the [TV] series, I had four books already in print, and the fifth one came out just as the series was starting in 2011. I had a five-book head-start, and these are gigantic books, as you know; I never thought they would catch up with me, but they did. They caught up with me and passed me.” (Via Uproxx.)”
Yeah…that again…what could have been and should have been, regrets and roads not travelled. I’m sorry but at this point I hardly care anymore. Make of this what you will…
Also this…
https://uproxx.com/tv/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-books-show-ending-different/
loco73,
Does this mean that GRRM is actually rewriting his ending? I find it interesting how mere days before GoT S8 aired, he stated how TV show ending is pretty much his ending in terms of main characters, but different endings for recurring characters. But now his interviews are becoming more and more that that’s not his ending at all. So weird…
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I don’t think he’s rewriting any of his plans but my impression is that there will be differences with his ending due to the existing differences and deviations between the show and books already, some of which are significant. GRRM had warned of these adaptational differences, calling it the “butterfly effect”. He’s made similar statements before since the show finished. GRRM also hadn’t seen season 8 or its scripts before it aired. I think some of the broad strokes can be similar but arrived at differently.
I find it weird because one of these articles is citing that GRRM has an opportunity to rewrite the ending and I also notice the pattern that with every interview that comes out, GRRM seems to be more and more distancing himself from TV ending. Which makes me think he’s rewriting stuff or that he may not even have a firm definite ending in mind. He himself admitted he’s a writer who likes to jump back and rewrite stuff.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That’s the article writer making these assertions — I don’t see anything from GRRM himself saying this. The above links aren’t to the original interview.
GRRM seems to be a perfectionist in that he will rewrite and revise passages but that’s pretty normal and different from changing his overall plans/where he wants to go. Over the years, he has spoken a few times about not changing what he has set up because he’s already planted the seeds, hinting at certain plot points and conclusions.
For example, in reference to people figuring out certain things about his books before they’ve been revealed, GRRM has said:
And he’s said:
Dame of Mercia,
1. So the moral of the story is do not kill off your protagonist. because if your book is a success the fans will want more.
2. In the movie, “The Gauntlet”
That’s the way you do it. Wound, don’t kill.
3. There’s a reason I thought of this movie in connection with the increasing uncertainty GRRM will ever finish the books: “The Gauntlet” played on the theme that there are betting lines on just about everything in Las Vegas.
I am wondering if Vegas sports books, or offshore online betting sites, have begun fixing the odds that TWOW will be released by certain date(s), or ever.
loco73,
Yeah. A familiar refrain from Big G. When I read his quoted statement, in my mind I heard: “It’s the same old song.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKJy4UaPHM
🔝 🔝 🔝 🔝
Ha!
Before S8 aired, I commented that GRRM had the luxury of sitting back and waiting to see how the show’s ending was received:
Fandom: “That was awesome!”
GRRM: “Exactly how I told it to Dan and Dave.”
– or –
Fandom: “That sucked!”
GRRM: ”Don’t look at me.”
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
It’s probably a case of Dany blowing up KL, and Jon killing her, but under very different circumstances. I’m convinced that Cersei will already be dead by this point for example, otherwise fAegon is literally pointless and book Cersei is not smart enough to take control like that. I’ll be shocked if some her ludicrous plans actually start working. The end of the WW will be very different as well, if I were to guess. So the bullet points are the same, but we may feel differently about them after a different build up and execution. I’d also guess that Dany destroys Meereen before going to Westeros, she will be very hard on them at least. One way or another, the characters who died in S8 will die in the books as well.
Its no secret that I didn’t buy Dany’s actions in The Bells, not that final snap anyway. I just didn’t believe in it. She could be brutal at times, but never ever against innocent children. I need to get inside her head at that moment, assuming it happens in the book. I’ve always really struggled with that decision, just one thing that fell flat for me and time hasn’t softened me on it. But that’s beside the point, I might not even like how GRRM handles it, and I am no great fan of Dany’s btw. It will happen in some way but not because of bells, its Jon Connington with PTSD related to bells. And Bran being King, that will be WAAAAY different
You know, I’m actually having similar thoughts. If the series finale was universally acclaimed (even though that’s a rare thing… majority of TV show finales end up being polarizing and divisive) I wouldn’t be surprised if he was more loud regarding how TV show ending is similar to his, pretty much like the statement he gave out shortly before S8 aired. In fact he has big advantage because he can keep subtly changing the ending and nobody would know. I’m still of an opinion he doesn’t really have the ending fully planned out and that it’s possible he already changed it from what he told the showrunners in 2013 to some extent even before S8 aired.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
…I’m still of an opinion he doesn’t really have the ending fully planned out and that it’s possible he already changed it from what he told the showrunners in 2013 to some extent even before S8 aired.”
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that he didn’t have the ending fully planned out.
After several rewatches of key scenes, and what I believe were mysteries posed, and Easter Eggs and clues planted, in the early seasons of GoT (when GRRM was involved in scripting and production), that were abandoned by S7, I’m convinced the showrunners had to come up with slapdash endings on the fly, that lacked the intricacies and moral ambiguities of a GRRM-devised resolutions.
• For instance, I’m convinced there is no way GRRM would resort to the cliched “mothership” device to resolve the WW/Others threat (i.e., killing the alien leader deactivates or destroys all of his minions). That has been used ad nauseum already, in movies like “Independence Day,” The Edge of Tomorrow,” and “Starship Troopers.”
In Got, the supposed fatal vulnerability of the wights (by taking out the WW who turned them) and the entire AotD (by killing their head honcho)
came out of left field in S7e6, “Beyond the Wall.”
• I suspect that GRRM intended for Sam to uncover in his research some tidbits of information about the WWs’ origins and motivations (perhaps aided by Bran’s fragmentary intel from reconnaissance into the past), and then use his powers of deductive reasoning to fill in the blanks to come up with a strategy to defuse the existential threat.
In the show, Sam became a non-factor. (Really? A front-line fighter? Pffft.) Apart from his unplanned slaying of a lone WW with a DG shard in a momentary freak-out when Gilly was threatened, it was established and emphasized that Sam was a liability on the battlefield, but an asset as an intelligence analyst. Plus, I assumed the character of Sam was fashioned, in part, as a stand-in for GRRM himself – and would demonstrate that brain power, rather than brute force alone, was essential to determining how to defend against or defeat an army of self-replicating supersoldiers who turned enemy casualties into new recruits.
However, because GRRM was unwilling or unable to impart to the showrunners whatever ingenious twist he had in store for Sam, the showrunners reached into the box of stock Hollywood sci fi devices and pulled one out to erase the WWs in a single episode. What a letdown.
• I also suspect that while GRRM may have conveyed in broad terms the conclusion of Dany’s story, i.e., that she would torch KL and be assassinated as a result, her actions will be the product of a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”-type quandary.*
I just cannot believe that even if GRRM intended to portray a flawed female heroine, he would have her decide on the spur of the moment to incinerate an entire city populated by close to a million defenseless civilians (after she had already defeated her professed enemy and after the city’s defenders had surrendered) because:
(a) she was triggered by the sight of the Red Keep as “a symbol” (per D.B. Weiss); or
(b) her boyfriend and the people she aimed to rule didn’t “love” her; or
(c) a genetic madness gene got switched on; or
(d) “fire and blood” was always her default setting; or
(e) In order to get rid of her, Sansa Stark manipulated her advisors to betray her; or
(f) folks all of a sudden felt she was too volatile and domineering, and a man would be a better monarch; or
(g) She opted to “be a dragon” and ignore her advisors like Olenna suggested; or
(h) She punished treason with execution; or
(i) All of the above; or
(j) None of the above; or
(k) F*ck if I know.
……
*(I’ve described such a scenario before, borrowing a line from “Aliens” when Ripley and Corporal Hicks were faced with an infestation of deadly creatures: “I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”)
……
• Without beating a dead horse, GRRM will not reduce the big reveal of Jon’s paternity into a merely a reason for Dany to get cranky. All of that buildup in pages in the books (and screentime on the show) could not have been for such a lame payoff. Moreover, after so much focus on Jon’s story, I cannot fathom that GRRM will reduce Jon himself to an ineffectual milquetoast for much of the end game.
• One last thing (for now)😉: I would bet that GRRM will not dilute or discard all of the books’ prophecies like the show wound up doing. It’s entirely possible that he had yet to articulate in clever ways exactly how they would be fulfilled, or had not finished fine-tuning the final twists – so the showrunners simply jettisoned them.
[🧑🏻🚀 Tinfoil Alert] I wouldn’t put it past GRRM to portray
I can also envision GRRM or Jon shielding his true identity or his deeds from the world at large, so that as far as the public (and recorded history) are concerned, those “prophecies” were a bunch of hogwash; or there never was a “chosen” hero/Prince with a magic sword as foretold by ancient prophecies, just some anonymous bastard in the NW who happened to be in the right place at the right time.
(As in the show, book! Jon could disappear into anonymity or exile in the far North at the end, with no glory, no recognition, no crown, and no titles.)
The big twist[spoiler], (somewhat reminiscent of the Greek (?) tale of Cassandra who was given the gift of seeing the future but cursed because nobody would believe her), all of the ancient prophecies would be realized but nobody would ever know or believe they did.
I can see GRRM fashioning that kind of bitt**sweet ending for Jon Snow, the Unknown Hero.
In any event, since GRRM will never finish the books, all of my speculation is a futile exercise.
Jenny,
” Its no secret that I didn’t buy Dany’s actions in The Bells, not that final snap anyway. I just didn’t believe in it. She could be brutal at times, but never ever against innocent children. I need to get inside her head at that moment, assuming it happens in the book. I’ve always really struggled with that decision, just one thing that fell flat for me and time hasn’t softened me on it.“
You stated more elegantly what I tried to say in my long-winded comment a few minutes ago. That “final snap” wasn’t really explained, either in the show or in the producers’ commentaries.
Ten Bears,
I think GRRM knows where he wants to go but I think he’s having trouble figuring out how to get there with all that he’s thrown in the air and the amount of characters he’s introduced — storylines that have taken on a life of their own.
Some quotes:
I think Jenny is right about Young Griff and he takes on that role of Westeros’s preferred monarch. Dany and Jon both have the worst reps in-universe. I think Lady Stoneheart makes a pretty big difference as well and D&D have spoken about how much they’ve changed Sansa’s storyline for that show. Plus, GRRM has spoken about important plans for Rickon when D&D wanted to cut him in the beginning. And Rickon wasn’t used much in the later seasons he was on.
I think it’s differences like these that will make the greatest differences to what GRRM plans to do vs. what the show did. The details, the cut characters, the secondary characters, the secondary storylines, and how the story meets these bullet points.
Adrianacandle,
(GRRM): “Essentially I know the big stuff, but a lot of little stuff occurs in the course of the writing. And of course some of the little stuff is very, very important. The devil is in the details. The devil is what makes the journey more than just an outline or a Cliff’s Notes kind of experience.”
I’d bet at this point lots of readers would also want to “know the big stuff” now. From book readers’ observations, it’s the devil in the details”of “the little stuff,” that has apparently bogged down GRRM and caused his “garden” to become overgrown with weeds.
I would also think that after waiting ten years and counting, many readers would be more than happy with “just an outline” or the Cliff’s Notes version of the completed story. They can go on the “journey” if he ever finishes the books.
GRRM: ”So I may know the ultimate fates of Jon Snow and Daenerys and Arya and some of the other principal characters. But I don’t necessarily know the ultimate fates of Dolorous Edd or Hot Pie, you know. Well, I have a few ideas about those, but still.”
Fair enough. I too would like to know now “the ultimate fates” of Arya, Jon Snow and Daenerys. Edd and Hot Pie can wait.
Oh, I’ve no doubt readers would want to know his plans in whatever format we can get, even if it’s just a rough outline on looseleaf photographed a 2007 iPhone 1. And I think GRRM has been bogged down by those details of the side stories and plots (which I think he admits in one of the above quotes).
Thing is — there are readers completely and wholly wrapped up in these details too. And we’re on GRRM’s cursed timeline. As long as he thinks he can get all the books out, I doubt he’ll consider releasing his plans if at all 🙁
Jenny,
I actually had zero problems with Dany’s downfall because “The Bells” exactly embodied 8 years of my fears and worries regardign Dany’s potential dark side that I couldn’t get rid of no matter how much I tried to warm up to her…. worries that emerged for me the first time as far back as in 2011 when I was reading about the Sack of Astapor for first time where she ordered a genocide of entire non-slave population over the age of 12… since then, I kept being subtly unsettled about the idea of Dany taking over the Iron Throne and “The Bells” put me at peace because I realized I was right all along and that my thoughts indeed had a real basis. But that’s another story and multiple-page essays if I wanted to fully describe my flow of thoughts in those years. Dany’s downfall almost certainly is coming from GRRM considering the showrunners themselves said they got to know about it in detail during their meeting with GRRM in 2013 (considering they pointed out “in detail”, I imagine they knew the plot point itself from get-go). ALthough yes, the way to get there may be different and as you pointed out yourself, it could be Aegon and not Cersei that she’ll be facing. Jon killing Dany… I’m fully sure that will happen in the novels and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is something the writers got to know from GRRM from get-go. GRRM supposedly did tell them the ending right at the beginning and then they had another sitdown with him in 2013 where they got to know more about the details because it was starting to become obvious they’ll surpass him. Just knowing about the ending probably wasn’t enough at that point… they needed big events for non-written novels and fates of prominent characters, not just POV characters. We also know Bran will become king in the novels too, Sansa becoming Queen in the North is very likely happening as well. I think Jon venturing beyond the Wall is also from the novels in some form… kind of resembling maester Aemon’s story. I’m not fully sure if Arya will go “west of Westeros” but I can firmly see her leaving in a way at the end of the story. Tyrion is the one that I’m the least sure about how his story is going to unfold because he’s a lot more of a pacifist in TV series but becoming Hand in order to “spend the rest of the life fixing stuff” – I can definitely see such ending for him. What I suspect may be different is his motivation to “screw up” things… I think Tyrion from the novels will be doing it more consciously while TV Tyrion more accidently screwed things up because he wanted to be a pacifist. Oh, and I’m fully sure White Walkers and Dragons will be gone at the end of the story. As for Davos, Brienne, Bronn, Podrick, Tormund etc., I can fully see that their endings might be quite different. That’s what GRRM pointed out himself that while major characters will have pretty much same endpoint on TV, recurring characters’ stories may differ significantly..
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I had those same thoughts about Dany, I had so many ‘debates’ with people about her lol. I knew that she’d never be Queen as well, she was always going to have a tragic end. She wanted the Iron Throne midway through S1, characters rarely get their life’s ambition, not when it involves gaining power and taking what they believe is theirs through war. More reluctant characters get power in fiction. I’m no writer but that’s how I felt. And she was a conqueror more than a ruler, she never successfully ruled anything, despite her good intentions. At the same time, she was shown to be incredibly selfless and caring, a really interesting mix if kindness and ruthlessness. The final moment didn’t work for me, but the descent didn’t come as a shock. With time and distance, i’m not sure if I like her ending. Her turning out like her father just leaves me a bit… I don’t know how to describe it… deflated? So many people in this story failed to escape their fates and its just a bummer lol. I might gain insight through her POV but I might still be left with that feeling, there’s no guarantee that GRRM’s version will be perfect. I’m not sure that having her killed by her lover has aged very well, it was obviously conceived in the late 90’s. It doesn’t feel very 2021, but that could be said about a lot of things in the books I guess
I’m endlessly fascinated by Bran, that’s the one plot that I need way more info on, i’m not sure about Arya and Tyrion either. I suppose in the book he could still be ‘punished’ by being forced to rebuild what her destroyed, because he is very into the idea of waging war on his family in Dance. Although, being faced with it may change his mind very quickly. Wanting something and actually doing it are very different things. Perhaps the show just condensed that character arc to the trial and his subsequent plot in S5. So the same, but different in many many aspects. He is clearly having trouble getting everything under control, he expanded too much in the last 2 books, quite the beast to tame
Ten Bears,
I agree with a lot of this, but GRRM might want that impactful moment too. If its too grey, that kind of let’s Dany off the hook. Say the WW get to KL, Dany goes postal and absolutely nukes the place, people may not understand, she may be killed because of it, but would that have the same impact as her making a conscious decision to punish the people of KL? I don’t know. Imagine a scenario where fAegon is in charge, the people like him and tell her to f*ck off. A fake Targ taking her throne and love, I can see her punishing them in that scenario. The problem is that Cersei having that power with no repercussions after blowing up the sept is absurd. The people didn’t love her, the people didn’t do ANYTHING to deserve what Dany did. All part of the condensed plot lines. I suppose that’s why they had to subject Dany to tragedy after tragedy in quick succession, they had to get her there somehow. This is where I have to give them credit for ending an incredibly complex and unfinished story at all
Whilst I totally agree there will be some differences between the books and the show, and likely GRRM only shared an outline from the time which can change people over look the fact they literally spent days together mapping out the arcs and end games of all key characters. We know some of the minor characters (for example the Hound it’s documented GRRM confirmed he comes back but hadn’t decided his arc) were not even discussed so D&D, plus Cogman must have got a good outline at the very least.
You see I think the Dany thing was built up gradually, go back and watch it again and it’s pretty clear. She had threatened to unleash fire and blood multiple times and she’d lost everything that had held those impulses previously. She was a deeply flawed character with some good intentions but countered by some extremely dark impulses which appear to be over looked by some in the fan base.
I could potentially see Young Griff taking the role of Cersei in holding Kings Landing but then the timeline doesn’t quite work for me. I totally see why D&D would do that however given how popular Cersei was versus introducing a new character but then it means the Lannister twins both likely die in Winds which feels a bit unlikely to me.
As for Dany sacrificing her life, I’m sorry and I don’t know how to say this without it appearing as sarcastic, that feels like extremely wishful thinking of a Dany fan. There is no way the show makes a change that big and it would throw out all of the set-up in both show and books that she will eventually turn ‘mad’. I feel the whole Nissa Nissa thing is coming but it will be Jon killing her for the good of the realm because she was a threat just like in the show.
Jon Snowed,
I did say YMMV. You don’t have to buy it but I don’t love being dismissed as “a Dany fan”. This is exactly why I hesitate to share my own theories. Nissa Nissa does give herself willingly, I think that’s a key component. You don’t have to agree but I’d appreciate not being dismissed as simply “a Dany fan” who is just doing some wishful thinking. I have put real thought into this. I also never said Dany wouldn’t go dark but I’d like some inner conflict going on with her too.
I think the fandom in general tends to either over-vilify Dany or they turn her into a saint (and I think the opposite tends to occur with the Starks). I think she can be all of her parts — good, bad, and everything in between. I think she can perform brutal actions, I think she can be selfish, rash, quick to anger, short-sighted, and I think she can also do selfless things and truly care for those she views as helpless and victimized.
Please do continue to share your opinions and theories:) I was struggling to articulate a response because I just cannot see how that would play out, it doesn’t diminish your right to believe it and I actually enjoyed reading an alternative theory. Certainly didn’t want to cause any offence.
I actually agree on Dany, she’s not one side of the coin or the other, definitely not black or white but bits of both and that’s what made her journey so intriguing because you were never totally sure how it would end.
Jon Snowed,
I’m sorry that I came on strong! It’s just an idea I’ve been toying with but I think that willingness is an important aspect. Of course, you don’t have to agree. That’s also not to say Dany will be a pure, wholly good character or even on the light side of grey, that she won’t burn down KL, go dark — but I think it’s a possibility.
I do try to avoid the whole Dany debate but the show has made significant, significant changes from the books. Sansa’s storyline post s4 for instance, as revealed by D&D. All we know is what GRRM/D&D/and others associated with the show have revealed about GRRM’s plans.
From GRRM:
I do think Dany does go dark but I’d like some more struggle, the various parts of her and her various desires in conflict.
Jon Snowed,
I think it will be the climax of Winds or early in Dream. I think of Cersei as the secondary boss in JRPG’s, she appears throughout the story and has to be fought multiple times, but there is always something bigger waiting. Honestly, if Griff doesn’t become King, I don’t know what the hell GRRM is doing, what is the point of him? I think Cersei slinks off and goes into hiding, perhaps reuniting with Jaime. Their reunion could be a good or bad thing for her (is he the valonqar? no idea) Jaime could get her and Tommen out of the city and they die together or one after the other somehow. Cersei has to have something to do with wildfire, perhaps the sept? Perhaps a plan to fend off Griff? I’d just hate to think that GRRM introduced a character for literally nothing, but others are pretty certain that it is exactly what he did. This is me having a little bit of faith in his later story telling
I have no doubt that Dany and Jon will reenact the Niisa Nissa prophecy, at least symbolically. Same with Cersei and the Valoqar. If not, it only serves to drive Cersei’s paranoia. It could be argued that the show did just that, Dany went to Jon willingly because she trusted him and he stabbed her through the heart. Jaime and Tyrion planned Cersei’s escape which ultimately led to her getting crushed and suffocating to death. I’d like something a bit more concrete personally though
Yes, I can see your point although I do feel like he did that to some extent with Quentin Martell too. Also if Young Griff does take Kings Landing I think somehow Tommen will need to die in that process, as his death I think will happen well before Cersei/Jamie. Perhaps they retreat to Casterly Rock and are killed by Dany early in ADOs?
Jenny,
I think it can work symbolically too. There may not be a fiery sword that vanquishes the Others in one fell swoop but may be an action that could result in saving the realm somehow. Or one of the actions. I believe NN does knowingly give up her life while, when Dany put her hand on Jon, he hadn’t made that decision yet and Dany doesn’t make that choice. Yet, there are quite a few ways it can go down.
I think I’d just like to see Dany struggle with equally compelling and difficult choices.
Me too.
Although, Younger Brick #34567801 is pretty concrete 😉 (bad pun).
But what if Young Griff is the younger, more beautiful queen who brings down Cersei, wins Jaime’s love, inherits Casterly Rock, and becomes the best step-dad to Tommen ever? 😉
(Fresh from my crackpot theory pile! Not even worthy of tinfoil.)
Jon Snowed,
omg, that was rough. Please don’t do it twice George! He only existed to be part of a prophecy, the sun setting or something like that. fAegon could be the same, simply the ‘mummers dragon’ that Dany was told of. Although that prophecy implies that they meet and she defeats him. If it happens in Storms End and he never takes the throne…. George… what are you doing? I suppose that Dany won’t be impressed if she thinks she has conquered the pretender, only to find that there is a real Targ right in front of her eyes
My theory is that Jaime initially goes back for Tommen, he dies and he and Cersei either escape the city or they die there when Dany/Griff take it. Jaime already said no to Cersei, but with an army on the doorstep he might be compelled to go for her and Tommen
I like the Cersei/Jamie escaping idea however it would leave them stranded at Casterley Rock and I’m not sure then how they would fit into the story conclusion, I still feel Dany will come North for the battle with the others. I can also certainly see a Dany vs Griff face off before heading north so perhaps that’s how it plays out rather than the battle of fire we saw in the show it’s a battle vs Griff and his troops.
Jon Snowed,
Yes, that’s likely as well. I suppose Dany will gauge the mood of the people when she is fighting Griff. I think she goes North as well, didn’t she have a dream about being at the Trident? The order is up in the air
Adrianacandle,
Yeah, i’d like to see a more conflicted Dany, she was on a one way train after Jorah died. I don’t find her decision to torch KL just because… to be massively compelling myself. As I said earlier, her turning out like dear old dad just leaves me a bit cold. But I’ll have to see GRRM’s version to see if I like it any better
Jenny,
I think Dany in some way resembles Aegon I. the Conqueror in terms of personality, with a bit of Maegor the Cruel. Aegon I. was deemed an enigma… because he was very nice and forgiving to everyone who submitted to him, but incredibly ruthless to those who opposed him. It was not above him to burn tens of thousands in order to get to the Iron Throne and his conquest resulted in extinguishing three Great Houses, even though he ended up a good king. I actually feel Aegon’s Conquest is “conveniently” written in a way that we see it as more heroic than it actually was… because who got the worst out of that Conquest? King Harren Hoare and King Argilac Durrandon who were cruel kings to begin with. King Mern Gardner whose house doesn’t even exist anymore in present time GoT story, and king Lorren Lannister. But the Starks were unharmed in the Conquest because they were so scared of Aegon that they surrendered without battle… the Tullys even sided with Aegon in order to take down king Harren, the Vale was unharmed, Dorne succesfully rebelled and so on. When I draw the line, the houses that are on protagonistic side in GoT story all got out pretty much unharmed so I think it makes it easier to see Aegon’s Conquest as more heroic and good for the realm. But what if it wasn’t the Gardners and Lannisters but the Starks that were burned on Field of Fire? What if it wasn’t Harren but Riverlords that were burned in their own castles? And even when it comes to Harrenhal, Aegon literally burned the entire castle with his dragon simply because king Harren didn’t want to submit to him. Doesn’t that mean that many innocent people were burned to death, women and children included? That doesn’t really seem that different from burning King’s Landing, only it happened on smaller scale. ANd when he couldn’t get Dorne to submit and eventually lost Rhaenys and Meraxes because he kept invading it, he kept burning its cities on dragonback.
Even though we only know little about Aegon, I see some big paralels to Dany in terms of his personality. This makes me ask a question, what kind of a person Aegon really was and why did he invade Westeros in first place? Was he really “good” or did he desire power above everything? Was the reason for his succesful rule the fact that he was a people’s person or that they were actually so afraid of him? Because after Aegon died, rebellions almost immediately started sparking around the entire Westeros.And the same I can ask myself about Dany. The more I think about it, the more I feel that while we’re still dealing to some extent with a “hero gone bad” storyline, Dany was also more “twisted” from get-go than we were led to believe in terms of her motivation and I very much consider the possibility that a lot of her actions originated from her intense need to be loved, including her supposed caring for people. At this point, it’s just my theory/personal explaination but I’m very much leaning in this direction.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Families/people in this story conquer wherein innocents die for the sake of dominion, conquering is not limited to Dany, Aegon, or the Targaryens. And from the text, she does care for those who she views as the weakest/victimized. She makes great personal sacrifices to bring about peace in Meereen — driven by guilt over what happened in Astapor after she left a council of slaves to rule the city. She opts to stay in Meereen over going to Westeros to heal the city. First, a former slave named Cleon (who is stylized as ‘the Butcher’) takes control and enslaves the former slavers, which Dany feels ill over, and then because Dany didn’t take Yunkai and left the slavers alive, the city returns to slaving the minute she leaves and Yunkai marches on Astapor. This results in Astapor refugees coming in droves to Meereen for help, especially when they get sick with the Pale Mare. Dany herself tends to them and refuses to let them starve. She only forces herself to close the gates because it’s either that or letting the Meereenese die too from infection.
ASOS, Daenerys VI
ADWD, Daenerys V
ADWD, Daenerys III
There’s no denying Dany has a dark side and dark instincts but the Starks, themselves, descend from invaders who came from Essos. Robb invaded the Westerlands and let his men raid and reap it. The Starks waged war for power and brutally conquered the North, they struggled to get Skagos to heel.
The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Kings of Winter
The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Stoneborn of Skagos
A Clash of Kings, Catelyn V
Jenny,
Yeah, I agree (being left feeling a bit cold).
Agreed. Even the folks who think everything about Dany’s heel turn made sense have to agree that she never targeted innocent children before “The Bells”.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
It’s an interesting comparison, but to be honest, I rarely side with the conquering army. I just think about colonialism, or even the crusades, they weren’t noble enterprises. I find it difficult to root for something like that. I haven’t read Fire and Blood, did the Targ’s invade to escape the doom of Valyria? With the dragons, they are so much more powerful than those in Westeros, they would probably feel that it is the natural order of things. Still not a great fan to be honest.
I have a different view of Dany, I didn’t start to doubt her until Meereen when she crucified the masters. I knew that she had made mistakes with the previous cities, she was actually too lenient, her previous experiences taught her to be hard. Seeing something so disgusting made her act (I feel) wrongly and even she regretted it later. She was brought up by a monster, its a miracle that she was so well adjusted. She saw brutality everywhere and she couldn’t stand to see people suffer. She probably did become accustomed to adulation and she tried and tried the diplomatic route in Meereen, which will again teach her to be hard. Being rebuffed in Westeros must have hurt, especially when she lost so much in the battle with the WW. I do believe that her intentions have always been good, but we can’t deny her ambition, Meereen just wasn’t enough, she wanted what was hers. Her decline doesn’t really start until midway through Dance, the ending is a turning point, I’m not sure what Dany will be like in Winds, less patient, more ruthless perhaps. But no more than other characters. In the show she wasn’t ruthless in the end, she was mad and that’s where i’m left feeling a bit cold. I’d feel better about it if she just took all the wrong lessons from Essos over to Westeros and they wouldn’t tolerate it, rather than the bonkers turn she had. She looked like Gollum in that throne room! lol
I don’t know, I’m so torn about it. She is so complicated, i’ve seen people retroactively paint her as a mad power hungry dictator from the start and I don’t buy it. Her reaction to Viserys’ death was perfectly natural to me, that’s one example people use now
Adrianacandle,
The main problem is that GRRM doesn’t seem to have sufficiently considered whether *the readers* would find those things “so interesting”. Or the impact those tangents would have on the quality of his writing and his ability to finish the books more quickly. The guy needs to (re-)learn how to prioritise what stuff is necessary and what is definitely not, regardless of how interesting he may personally find the latter. But at least he’s aware there’s a problem.
A few more thoughts about Bran etc: Like I said upthread, I think people need to look beyond Western history and mythology if you’re trying to predict where ASOIAF is ultimately headed (assuming GRRM finishes the books — usual caveats apply). For example, if the numerous parallels with India’s Mahabharata continue, Jon (not Tyrion) will eventually have a major “revelatory private conversation” with Bran, and Bran (not Tyrion) will persuade a reluctant Jon to kill Dany, possibly involving metaphysical rationale along the lines of “nobody ever really dies”.
The last point could be crucial; given Jon’s death and resurrection, plus Bran’s ongoing supernatural abilities potentially causing him to have developed a godlike awareness by ASOIAF’s climax, Jon and Bran are among the few major characters who could have a credible conversation on this subject based on their own experiences and insight. (One of the pivotal events in the Mahabharata story involves Krishna using lengthy metaphysical arguments about this to privately convince his invincible reluctant-warrior cousin Arjuna to kill a number of relatives for the greater good, including people Arjuna deeply loves, although there’s no romantic angle).
Another clue that Bran is partly based on Krishna has occurred to me: The whole thing with Meera Reed. In 16th century India, a princess called Meera was famously devoted in her worship of Krishna, sometimes taking it to extremes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabai . Meera’s story is still famous among South Asians today. Also, like Bran, the myths about Krishna’s childhood describe him as obsessively climbing tall places. GRRM is making his historical and literary influences very obvious, at least to some of us 😉
As for book-Dany’s reasons for nuking KL, perhaps look to mythology and real history again for major examples of supposed “heroes” burning conquered cities and their civilian populations. Mythological examples: The burning of Troy and (in India’s Ramayana epic) the burning of Lanka. Real historical examples: The Romans burning Carthage and Alexander burning Persepolis. So GRRM may base book-Dany’s mindset on some mixture of those; it will not necessarily be the same as it seemed to be on GoT.
Agree 100%.
Viserys deserved to die. Dany had no reason to feel bad about any of it.
Missed the Edit time, I just wanted to add. From my limited understanding of it, her decision in The Bells almost felt like road rage. She got what she wanted and it wasn’t enough to assuage her hurt and anger. It felt like pure rage. I expected to see her calm down and realise what she’d done, to feel bad. She’d still have to die for what she did, but instead she snapped, and the snap is what I struggle with
Then there’s the Tarly incident.
That incident, which has been effectively re-litigated, has been cited—by fans and commentators and Sam himself—as evidence of her cruelty and unfitness to rule. (I will confess here that this particular decision—in which Daenerys gave defeated enemies a choice to serve her and keep their estates, or die—didn’t strike me as that egregious in a show that features, among other things, a beloved character feeding a man his own children.)
Also, Dany had always acknowledged how awful her brother Viserys was, and she was nothing like him, but out of completely nowhere, she looked back on him in season 8 with a sense of fondness.
Huh?
Off topic, I watched “Death at a Funeral” last night for the first time and Peter Dinklage was great in it.
Jai,
Yes. However, at the end of the day, this is still GRRM’s story and his world. I do think he needs to pull back from constantly evolving his side plots and characters at this point since it’s turning into an overwhelming snowball of stuff he seems to be having trouble handling. Yet, as GRRM once said, “art is not a democracy.” I think he’s going to do what he’s going to do, regardless of whether or not the reader will like it or find it interesting — but yes, he does seem to be aware there’s a problem with these smaller stories and characters taking on a life of their own.
I appreciate your thoughts on how ASOIAF compares to other stories, like India’s Mahabharata, since I’ve never encountered these comparisons before. I personally prefer to stick within GRRM’s own writing to maybe try and pick up hints over what will happen since that’s the guaranteed place where he’d put them. ASOIAF — because it is ultimately a fictional fantasy story with tropes and such — shares parallels with multiple stories and for me, personally, I think going beyond ASOIAF for hints takes on the major risk that he may not be drawing from this other non-ASOIAF stories at all (unless he says so and even then, I don’t think he’s trying to mirror these plots but is picking and choosing what he likes and exploring those ideas). That’s why I, Adrianacandle, stick to ASOIAF itself for hints but that’s not me telling anyone else to 🙂 Foreshadowing and such “hints” are ultimately tricky regardless because they can mean different things to different people. Or something may not be a hint at all while another overlooked detail is. It’s almost like trying to solve a puzzle but we don’t really know what all the rules are.
Jenny,
Regarding her reaction to Viserys’s death, it were Benioff and Weiss themselves that brought it up as first direct sign of Dany’s darker side and that it was not meant to be a normal reaction. Then again, I don’t know whether they were refering to her outright coldness or the fact she proclaimed herself a dragon… I believe when Targaryens start labeling themselves as dragons, that’s a red flag on its own in my mind.
So if I ignore her genocide of entire non-slave population of Astapor over age of 12 in third novel in a Red Wedding-style betrayal, the first serious doubts I had about her in TV show is when she went to purchase ships from Spice King and had a serious tantrum there when he refused her. Like why would she be entitled to those ships in first place? That’s where I firmly made my mind that her big flaw is that she feels (too) entitled. WHen I came upon TV Sack of Astapor, even though the showrunners toned it down a bit compared to the novel (changing her order to “kill the masters, kill the soldiers but spare the children” instead of outright ordering execution of entire non-slave population and only sparing children under 12) I still found it unsettling and with every rewatch, I felt the same. Then there’s this “Breaking the Wheel” speech in S5… there was certain portion of audience that interpreted it in darker way… that instead of stopping the wheel a.k.a great houses being under her, she’ll pretty much “obliterate” them so there’s no chance there’s any opposition towards her. Of course, any predictions of such were totally shut down then by other part of fandom. But now with S8, it kind of feels exactly that. And then there is her S6 moment when she wanted to burn Yunkai and Volantis to the ground and Tyrion talked her out of it and resolve the conflict with surprisingly little causalities. But what if Tyrion wasn’t there at that time? She would unleash the dragons on Yunkai and Volantis and Grey Worm, Daario and Missandei would certainly fully support her in that, hundreds of thousands of people would have died. I definitely feel she was fully capable of doing that at that point.
I would say we already have a “root” of her inner darkness in S1… the fact that she fully embraces Viserys’s ambition to take the Iron Throne despite the fact that she despised him, including his desire to be king, and already feels very entitled to it in S2. “When my dragons are grown, we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!”, “The Iron Throne is mine and I WILL take it”, “I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen and I will take what is mine! With fire and blood, I will take it!”
Jenny,
BTW. Targaryens didn’t invade in order to escape the Doom. The Doom happened 100 years before the Conquest so Targaryens lived on Dragonstone for a century before Aegon decided to invade. But Valyria did pretty much obliterate three huge civilizations, first the Ghiscari Empire, then the Andal civilization and finally the Rhoynar civilization. Valyria is directly responsible for migration of surviving Andals and Rhoynars to Westeros and if the Doom didn’t happen, I imagine Valyria would eventually claim Westeros as well… entire known world probably.
Those “Inside the episodes” featurettes with D&D created more confusion than clarity, IMO. Especially towards the last couple of seasons.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Goodness, I thought I was hard on Dany! lol For me she didn’t really step out of line until Meereen, although your interpretation is probably what the show wanted from viewers.
I’m pretty sure that back in the day, D&D themselves said that it wasn’t a sign of madness and that she isn’t her father. So they were either lying or they had to play up that aspect to justify the turn later. I gave up trying to make sense of their comments on the behind the episode things. They contradicted themselves and even the things we just saw on screen. It can’t be easy to do those things while keeping things under wraps.
It sounds weird to say this, but 12 is practically a man. Dany herself was only 14 at the time, 12 year olds were a threat. So I don’t see that as an over the top reaction. How old was Robb in Clash? 14 or 15? I sometimes forget how young these characters are.
I didn’t like the breaking the wheel thing, but it was a show invention, a good way to illustrate her goal and perhaps rebrand it as more noble than ‘it’s mine and I want it’. But to me it further proved her lack of ability to rule because it felt like nothing more than a campaign slogan that meant literally nothing. It did pretty much mean that she was setting out to change the order of things, change the power balance. Everyone would be under her and she would treat them better than the other big houses. That was the intention anyway. But as I said, it felt very empty to me every time.
She wanted what she wanted I guess, she did at least have some claim to it. People can threaten a lot of things, she said some things after nearly dying of thirst, she was desperate, but even in her more rational moments, a threat is just that. I think her intentions were far more noble than Cersei’s for example. That’s the thing with fiction, people aren’t supposed to want power, they are supposed to be reluctant or forced into it. It never goes well for openly ambitious characters for some reason. That was my first clue, no way was she getting that throne
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Thank you, I wasn’t sure. So it really was just a case of them taking something just because they could.
Mr Derp,
Yeah, I think they were hampered by the need for secrecy, especially in the end. I thought the Lost writers handled it slightly better. They would answer questions and you could tell they were being purposefully vague, rather than having to mislead people all the time. At least from what I can remember
Yes, I think Robb was a 15-year old king while Dany was a 14-year old conqueror. In ADWD, 16-year old Jon considers 12 to be the age of maturity (where he’ll take boys 12 and over to help man the Wall).
Also, in the books, I believe Dany doesn’t threaten to burn any cities. I think they did soften some of her more gentle book qualities, like Dany helping the Astapori refugees, and added some show only content (when Barristan is murdered in the show, Dany doesn’t feed a Meereenese noble to her dragon to send a message to the Harpy in the books). The marriage she negotiates with Hizdahr is specifically because if they marry, one of Dany’s terms is accepting Hizdahr’s offer of a prolonged period without bloodshed given the current tensions between Yunkai, the Harpy, and herself. Plus all of the personal sacrifices she made for peace in Meereen were largely left out of the show.
Again, none of this is to say Dany doesn’t have her violent side, dark impulses, and doesn’t make terrible mistakes but I’d argue her good intentions and compassion were real even if some of her choices made things worse at times (which is precisely what happened, primarily with the way she conquered Astapor and handled Yunkai, making the situations for those she sought to help that much worse).
I don’t think 12 is practically a man. Even in Westeros world, there was a need of a regent if someone was aged under 16. But even if she considered those 12+ men, what she did in Astapor was condemn every single non-slave resident to death for the only reason that they were not slaves in a city that practiced slavery for thousands of years. And the whole thing was through Red-Wedding-style betrayal. There was no war to begin with, no negotiation… she met with Astapor in order to purchase an army, when she got it, she was like “OK, the army is mine now. Now let’s slaughter entire non-slave population”. Put a camera inside Astapor and we get The Bells no.2, Unsullied mercilessly hacking unarmed people to death. Men, women, even children over 12. Tens of thousands probably died on that day and who knows how many of them were actually “guilty”. This is the lesson she eventually learned in Meereen with Hizdahr’s father… that not being a slave doesn’t equal being evil.
Hizdahr’s father as one of the slavers Dany crucified isn’t a plot point in the books. However, in the books, Dany was willing to work with former slavers if they abide by her no-slaving-in-Meereen laws. The 163 people Dany had crucified are slavers and they were chosen by lot, I believe. It’s also something Dany has self-doubt over doing:
ASOS, Daenerys VI
ADWD, Daenerys III
ADWD, Daenerys I
Do you have a quote for this? From what I recall, I don’t think it’s under 16. Off the top of my head: Catelyn was not 14/15-year old Robb’s regent, Osric Stark became Lord Commander at age 10 without a regent. Joffrey didn’t act with a regent. Meanwhile, Tommen is aged 8-9 when he has the crown and Cersei is his regent. Yet, while 8-year old Bran had Luwin’s guidance, he had no regent when he was running Winterfell in Robb’s stead.
Well, only one of those three lines I quoted was said outside Qarth. The other two are from her conversations with Xaro and Spice King. If Dany ended up being on good side, then yes, I would interpretate these lines as her moments of weakness. After all, I said I made up my mind here that she possesses a flaw of being (too) entitled, not that she’s a villain. After all, I know from LOST (my favorite TV show) that even my most favorite characters can have moments when I utterly can’t stand them and feel uncomfortable watching. But knowing how Dany ends, knowing her speech from final episode, knowing Tyrion’s statements from final episode… subtle moments like these can have different meaning for me now. That’s why first rewatch is crucial to me with all the TV shows I loved… because second time watching is usually when I form firm opinion on the overall story (in TV shows I love, my appreciation usually only deepens with rewatch) that likely won’t change anymore with any subsequent watching. Knowing where the story ends, scenes or character moments that I may have never paid much attention before may now become very important to me.
Joffrey did have a regent in the novels… Cersei. I think Tyrion makes a remark something in a way that 3 years from now (Joffrey’s Wedding), Joffrey will rule on his own accord. This is from the novel Wiki:
For both boys and girls, sixteen is the age of legal majority.[67][68] From that point, there are referred to as a “man grown” and “woman grown”.[69][70]
However, for girls, there are exceptions. A girl who has had her first flowering (i.e. first menstruation) is considered to be fit for both marriage and consummation of the marriage.[71] Most highborn girls have their first flowering at the age of twelve or thirteen,[72] bringing them in a somewhat ambigious position. They are considered to be “part child, part woman”, and can be referred to as a “maid”[67] or “maiden”[73], and, even if she has not yet reached the age of sixteen, a “woman grown”.[28]
Young highborn boys can be sent away for fosterage to other noble families. While there are exceptions (e.g., Quentyn Martell), it appears that boys who have reached the age of majority are free to go where they like, thereby ending their fosterage.[74]
Ruling lords and ladies who inherit while still in their minority usually have a regent, who serves as the decision-making ruler until they come of age
Adrianacandle,
Oh now that’s interesting, I know that the speech outside Quarth was added but wasn’t sure about the others. With the condensed time, they probably had to make her harsher to make her turn remotely believable in the end. The problem was simple, she was killing slavers and the audience simply shrugged, who is crying over slavers really? That was always the problem they had, she wasn’t out there punishing innocents for nothing
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That’s a fair point, but I wouldn’t put it on the same level as the Red Wedding, which went against all known practices of Westeros. It was certainly a betrayal, very smart, it felt right tactically, not mad or brutal, not at the time anyway. Taking cities isn’t exactly a nice thing to do, no matter who is doing it. She conquered a city and made sure that they couldn’t retaliate, that was her plan anyway. Its difficult when we mix so much show and book things, she was harsher in the book, but she didn’t kill Hizdahr’s father in the book and she felt bad about crucifying the masters afterwards
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Yes, its always good to go back and watch a show after it ends. You really appreciate the subtle plotting leading up to things. In this case, for me it was showing that she could be brutal, that she was ambitious, not that she’d go mad. Its that final turn that doesn’t work for me, it would work better for me if she made a conscious decision like Tywin, this is for the greater good. But she had lost the plot, they didn’t really include any of the hints at her madness which are in the books. The fact that they had to show a little video about Targ’s and coin flipping before the Bell’s aired tells me something about their confidence it the turn. But I fully understand your opinion, i’m glad that it worked for you, it was a bummer for me. It’s been nice to talk to you about it though, I feel that we are on the same page about a lot of things, we both side eyed her at certain times but the final moment didn’t do it for me unfortunately
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Thanks for directing me to the ASOIAF wiki to find those sources. I think there is a bit of messiness here because while per that source, according to GRRM, 16 is the legal age of majority, vows said above 12 still count and they are still accountable for them:
From that source:
Dany’s orders were:
Daenerys III, ASoS
Jon considers the age of 12 for boys to be that of maturity as well:
ADWD, Jon V
If those 12-year olds disobey an order, they are subject to execution.
I’d have to look for this passage but there are leaders without regents who are 12 and under per my previous examples. However, I think Joffrey had final decision making power. I could be wrong though. I’ll look into it.
Adrianacandle,
Ah now, that would explain why I had no issue with Dany taking Astapor, she ordered the deaths of the soldiers, slavers, and the nobility (men) who no doubt profited from slavery, but no boys under 12 and no women. I couldn’t remember the exact words. Its perfectly reasonable, certainly more civilised than a proper sacking of a city
For me, it would feel right if for example after she purchased an army, she made a threatening statement first… demanding they release slaves and if they don’t, she’ll attack. It would feel right to me if she ordered them to conquer the city and destroy its army… that’s war. But ordering them to outright KILL every single non-slave resident that’s aged 12 or more, that’s overly brutal to me. I can only imagine the scene where Unsullied storm the noblemen’s apartments, find parents hugging little kids with potential older siblings being present and they drag kids from them arms and brutally stab them with spears. And unarmed scared people running through the streets while Unsullied and Dothraki stab and hack them to death. In my eyes, that’s cruel and brutal, even more because she attacked them out of the blue through a betrayal that gained her army.
Jenny,
Yeah, I’d agree. It is kind of a brutal world where children are taken hostage and held accountable for their father’s crimes, children are married off at 8+, we’ve got a 12-year old bride in Sansa and a 13-year old bride with Dany, Tommen marries Margaery at age 8, Jon can give up his entire life at age 14, there are 10-year old Lord Commanders, 14-year old conquerers, 15-year old kings….
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
As Adriancandle helpfully pointed it, it wasn’t quite so bad as we remember, Dany’s exact words were
“Unsullied!” Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” She raised the harpy’s fingers in the air…and then she flung the scourge aside. “Freedom!” she sang out. “Dracarys! Dracarys!”
So that is soldiers, slavers and the men who profit from slavery. No women or children under 12. It’s horrible to think about, but it’s still better than a normal sacking because the unsullied don’t rape and they wouldn’t destroy buildings, or steal, or hurt women. They did exactly as they were told. We are still talking about nasty stuff, but a Westerosi army is far worse in a conquered city
Jenny,
“Slay every man who wears a tokar” is already too much in my eyes to be honest… something I really can’t side behind. So every aristocrat was condemned to death… why? Because they’re not slaves? In fact I would have tolerated Sack of Astapor more if she didn’t outright give an order for a genocide… then the sack would have been “side effects” of a war. But giving an outright order for EXECUTION of potentially thousands of people with no chance at all of surrendering, of any form of mercy? No, I can never side behind that. Never. It’s straight brutal to me. This is what I like about Meereen… despite the crucifying of 163 noblemen which was very wrong in my eyes, there was no “mass execution”, no automatic condemning of aristocrats to death. ANd I like that the combined attack from Yunkai and Volantis was ended with no mass destruction either.
BTW. I well remember that the Slovenian translation of A Storm of Swords that I was reading had the “Slay every man who wears a tokar” translated in a way that it would reverse translate as “Slay anyone who wears a tokar!” I had no idea till today that the original specifies “…every man…” so this is probably the translator’s fault. Still, I feel very uncomfortable regarding Sack of Astapor.. it’s something I really can’t side behind and it completely alienated me from any desire to support Dany’s conquest and caused me 8 years of unsettling thoughts to the point that I started asking myself if I’m watching something wrong. I did realize from various TV shows I watched I’m way more sensitive to protagonists doing violent things or delivering some sort of vigilante justice than villains doing all sort of stuff to protagonists. 😕
A bit of unusual break. Footage from France, a day at the beach around 1899 (as per the video). This is enhanced footage.
And bit more footage…if you are bored…here is New York in 1911…
Something obviously didn’t work with Dany because some people felt like it came from nowhere however there were equally some (like Erik and myself) who saw it coming some way off. I remember reading a viral tweet along the lines of “REMINDER: there are only XX number of episodes for Dany to go mad” and this was in S8 I believe! The Dany going mad theory was around a long time though, I remember reading about it on Westeros.org back around season 2 or 3.
Jon Snowed,
I really wonder what my overall opinion on Dany (or certain other GoT characters) would be if I watched GoT in my own bubble with no access to any fandom, the way I actually watched LOST the first and to some extent second time… not knowing a thing what fandom thought of certain characters or episodes.
I don’t typically get involved in the fandom of a series unless I’m especially invested and am often ignorant of fan opinion until I investigate. I’ve watched and enjoyed a number of shows over and over but have only become involved in a few fandoms and sometimes, it can take a while. I’m still not sure what it is that compels me. I didn’t begin looking into the ASOIAF and GOT fandoms until partially through season 5 in 2015 and didn’t begin participating until maybe late 2016. I started watching the show in April 2011, which is when I read books 1-4 and then book 5 that July 🙂
I think I started reading the books after the show started, but I used to wait for the DVD’s and rent them. So I was totally behind and out of touch with the fandom. I distinctly remember reading about the crucifixion of the Masters in Meereen and heading straight to Google to look up theories about her turning bad. I read that essay and it pretty much confirmed my suspicions, things would go bad for her. I started seeing clues in everything, where perhaps other people didn’t. Once its in your head, everything takes on a different meaning. The funny thing is, the first 3 episodes of S8 had me second guessing myself because she did everything right, she was fair, she was selfless, she gave up so much. Her advisors turned on her for nothing really, what happened between her killing the Tarly’s and episode 4? Jon’s true parentage reveal, they started wobbling because they preferred a man. She had every right to be pissed and I found myself siding with her more than I had since S4. It really threw me right at the end. Maybe that’s why the snap didn’t work for me. I think I was actually annoyed on her behalf for the first time in literally years.
I’d have a different point of view there, I do not believe Dany deliberately targeted children, she lost empathy and didn’t care who got in the way, she was over ran by her impulses which had been evident since the start and were no longer held back by those around her.
Jenny,
Interesting… for me, it was actually early S8 that enforced my idea that she’ll go much darker. At the end of S7, I was about 50/50 in terms of her turning out as protagonist or becoming a villain (by the end of S6, I was way more leaning to protagonist side). Then after two episodes of S8, it increased to about…75% sure that she’s undergoing dark route. At the end of episode 4, I was already 90+% sure.
Excerpt from my own reivews that I wrote on the day I watched the episodes:
8.1 So if I maybe touch Jon and Dany at this point… they both gave me very mixed feelings. They’re two good people overall but they’re just as flawed as everybody else. Now their »mistakes« are coming to the scene. Jon is losing support of Northern lords and Dany doesn’t even seem to be trying to earn their support at this stage. She believes everyone needs to follow her as she’s the queen and with Jon being her lover, apparently that seems a good reason enough. In my eyes, I feel Dany needs to prove herself being worthy of bending the knee to, like she did to Jon in »Beyond the Wall« when she rescued Jon and co. from the army of the dead. The way she arrived to Winterfell… the »smug« face expression when people got terrified of dragons… why was that necessary? I feel she would suceed by making people love her, not fear her. If she means to rule, people need a reason. Jon on other hand, I generally like him but at this stage, love is showing its flaws. I often say falling »too quickly« in love can result in too harsh decisions and too narrow-minded perspective. And I believe Jon is dealing with this grip at the moment… if he loves Dany, that doesn’t mean everyone will follow him. So on overall scale, I wish these two find a way to make the people happy and don’t rely on »I am your ruler!«
And from “THe Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”
8.2 SPeaking of Sansa and Daenerys, I so liked that they finally had a sit-down and talked as two grown ladies should have. Certainly better than just throwing sharp stares to each other. I enjoyed both through that scene as they both raised valid points… such as Daenerys pointing out how her love for Jon brought her to the north, and Sansa pointing out how men do stupid things for love (and I believe that so do women). But the seemingly peaceful resolution got really tense after a short line: »What after? What about the North?« and Dany’s face so tightening up. The hints that were thrown regarding her in past episode kind of not give me the good vibe. But on other hand, I absolutely love the writers paid attention to this side of Daenerys. After all, she’s a flawed person herself like everybody else and who knows where her journey is headed. Regarding the attitude I saw from her, it can go both ways. Sansa might be too blunt on other hand, not warm enough in these moments, but at the same time, I love how she stands for herself. Definitely a true northern lady. BTW. I love her outfit this season
But there was another dark shadow lying over the castle… the truth. »My name… is Aegon Targaryen«. Yes, Daenerys got this hard truth that her life was a lie all along… she’s not the last Targaryen and even worse, she’s not the next in line for the throne. And the look in her eyes meant nothing well. Was that anger? Disbelief? Fear? I truly hope she pulls out of this in good manner . It seems the romantic love days between her and Jon are over. But before they could talk this through… three blasts. We all know what that means.
(I don’t have any reviews written post Long Night because negativity started to spread over WotW and I lost my passion for writing them, even more when after 6 hours of night-writing Long Night review, almost nobody seemed to notice it and the only comment I got in response was “I think the piano music was really tedious”)
You spent 6 hours writing a review of The Long Night?
D&D made a specific point to show women and children being killed.
Yes, to show that they were killed in the process of unleashing fire and blood, she was warned this would happen in S7 and Tyrion managed to talk her out of it but by S8 she no longer cared. However my point still stands she didn’t deliberately target children she no longer distinguished between who she killed.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
`It’s quite funny how we took different things from the opening episodes, it was also Episode 4 that wound me up re: her advisors. She helped to defeat the WW and lost her closest friend/advisor, but people were treating her like she was nothing. There was still the matter of Northern independence to sort out but they could have been a bit more grateful. Varys in particular annoyed me, shooting her worried glances because she was sad and lonely. I was kind of like ‘f*** them’ by that point. So annoying lol. For me she had proven herself worthy at that point and I was behind her for the first time in a long time. But then of course the snap came
This.
Varys was so fickle he might as well have been one of the Glovers.
On the one hand, he believed she was the best hope for Westeros, but on the other hand, he was constantly side-eying her, and never tried to help her at all. He abandoned her at the first sign of trouble.
When the topic of marriage between Jon and Dany was brought up, Varys dismissed it outright claiming that Dany would eat him alive or something like that. It’s amazing how poorly he thought of the “best hope for Westeros”.
These are not the actions of a good advisor. Especially if said advisor believes the One they serve is the best hope for Westeros.
Jorah was probably the only good advisor she ever had. Everyone else was beyond awful for her.
Mr Derp,
He was worried after the Tarly incident, but as far as I can remember, that was the only time he showed concern for her tendencies. Having been present at some of good old dad’s burnings. So I understood him being cautious, but he picked some really weird moments to get concerned. After the `battle was not the time, I didn’t understand that reaction at all. Also his opposition to Jon and Dany getting married as if incest was a problem for them. I suppose in the book he’s all Griff and will switch straight to Jon, I doubt he ever supports Dany
Jenny,
Yea, and certainly, Varys may not have known she would turn out to be so evil, but she was still a conqueror from another land who had dragons and a massive army. Why did he think this would bring peace to Westeros?
I honestly don’t recall the reason given. Was there one?
Varys even admitted himself that the Gods flip a coin with the Targaryens and he already served the Mad King, yet he thought the best idea for the realm would be to have a Targaryen with dragons take over? WTF?
I don’t think Varys will be switching to Jon in the books. I think Jon’s story as a claimant to the throne was an adaptation of Young Griff, who was obviously removed from the show. Varys did raise Young Griff himself and fashioned him into the qualities he values in a good ruler. Meanwhile, even if Jon is trueborn in the books, his parentage and getting anyone to believe his parentage would be a hard sell. Jon also doesn’t have a good rep in-universe and I think trying to claim this Ned Stark lookalike who is widely accepted as Ned Stark’s bastard son as the secret, undocumented child of the former crown prince would play into the anti-bastard stigma Westerosi already has (trying to usurp a trueborn claim, a basatard’s trick). Jon is not popular in Westeros, is already known as the “Black Bastard of the Wall” as far as Braavos, and the Blackfish even believes Jon becoming LC was a Lannister scheme because Jon — to the Blackfish — is an untrustworthy bastard. Jon also let in the wildlings and is known as a turncloak among the Watch.
Even if Young Griff is a Blackfyre in truth, he has the traditional look of a Targaryen, was raised to be a king, and would be arriving in Westeros with a blank slate claiming to be a Targaryen who was known to exist.
I think this goes to Varys’s saying: “Power resides where men believe it resides.” Perception of the situation vs. the truth of the situation. Perception often wins out if the truth is too unbelievable.
Edit timer:
As I recall, Varys was also scheming to put Viserys and the Dothraki in power in season 1. This is when the Dothraki were known for raping and pillaging.
How would this have been good for the realm?
Adrianacandle,
Varys noticed how the Northerners preferred Jon over Dany. I think Varys realized that Jon had all of the positive attributes that Dany had, but none of the bad. It seems like by Season 8 episode 4 Varys thought Jon would’ve been the best choice for Westeros.
HOWEVER, Varys dismissed the idea of Jon and Dany ruling as husband and wife because Jon would be a pushover for Dany. How can a pushover be a good king? It doesn’t really make much sense.
Also, IMO, it was out of character for Varys to telegraph his intentions so obviously as to basically commit suicide in season 8. He used to be more cunning than that.
Mr Derp,
I think much of that was an awkward adaptation and shoehorning of Young Griff’s plot onto Jon when I don’t think it makes sense to have Jon as a choice ruler. I mean, look at how Jon would appear to Westeros: he let the wildlings in (their enemy for thousands of years), he’s a bastard son of an alleged traitor, he appeared to have deserted the Watch… Even in the show, the Northern lords were ready to overthrow him for Sansa in 7×05 just for going south. They’re about as dependable as a paper bridge in the rain. I think these adjustments (Sansa’s story from s4-onward and putting parts of Young Griff’s story onto Jon) led to adaptational awkwardness.
I think there’s a good chance Jon may become KitN in the books for a brief time due to Robb’s will, which was also left out of the show, but the Northern lords in the books are characterized differently. There are also different factions too. But of course, this is getting into repeating the same debate as we had on the 16th in this very thread 🙂
Puppet time! Young Griff, if I remember correctly, was fairly malleable.
Adrianacandle,
*Puppet time! (But I don’t think that was the indended idea) Young Griff, if I remember correctly, was fairly malleable. I think the adaptation of Young Griff’s story and applying it to Jon led to some plot holes, including odd characterization for Varys as you pointed out. Or short cuts with the script.
(Edit timer timed out and on a thread this large, things are going far more slowly on my system in terms of loading and even lag time with typing)
I wasn’t part of that debate, but ok.
Adrianacandle,
Yes, I agree about Jon taking Griff’s role in a lot of ways. It depends on the timeline, if Griff dies earlier than anticipated, Varys could choose Jon. But you do point out some major setbacks. It begs the question though, why is Jon a Targ? What plot relevance is there? Other than prophecy stuff, that’s why I think he will get mixed up in the succession debate at some point.
Mr Derp,
Show Varys is such a messy bitch, no consistency whatsoever post KL escape. He wants what he believes is best for the realm and will do anything to make it happen. Far more ruthless in the book. Poor Kevan 🙁 It’s extreme really, he didn’t want Kevan to fix Cersei’s clusterf*ck because that would make Griff’s invasion harder. He’d have Westeros tear itself apart before things got better with Griff’s rule. I guess he’s a messy bitch in the book too lol.
I can’t remember now, but does Varys want Griff to marry Dany? Because Illyrio knows all about her and they are working together
I’m sorry. I also got the date wrong — it was the 19th. I think we discussed the issues with the Northern lords.
I think Jon’s parentage would have relevance in the mystical part of the story. I don’t really see what would convince Varys that Jon’s parentage is real. Even if he did believe it, Varys would know he’s facing a steep, steep uphill battle with getting the Westerosi to support Jon, a country who already hates Jon, hates bastards, hates wildlings, where oathbreaking and deserting the Watch are among the worst things you can do in this country, and a country who doesn’t think much of the North or believes that the threat of the Others exist. They view the Others are just some silly Halloween story nonsense. Backing Jon as a contender would be a political nightmare, I imagine.
I addressed this before upthread so I’ll use that answer here as well 🙂 The mystical and magical aspects were toned down greatly in the show. Jon’s the child of two powerfully magical bloodlines (perhaps the only two magical bloodlines) and as Melisandre tells Jon in ADWD, “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.” I think the conflict with the Others will be resolved much differently in the books, perhaps through negotiation, but I think pertaining to prophecy and the Others, Jon being the child of two magical bloodlines may make the big impact in his role there and I think that’s ultimately Jon’s purpose. Politically, I don’t think Jon was ever meant to embody GRRM’s “The Return of the King” but I think he’s meant to be unsung, a Snow, as I think several passages in the books indicate. He’s never really fit in anywhere — I think he’s always been somewhat of an “other” himself, like his fellow misfits.
I know that’s not the best answer but I’m not good at theory crafting 🙂
Jon’s also a powerful warg in the books — as are Rickon and Arya both. Arya can warg cats even. They weren’t wargs in the show (only Bran) but I believe GRRM said Nymeria’s large pack would pay off somehow but I’d still need to find that quote 🙁
Adrianacandle,
That makes sense, it has to be prophecy related. Dany would believe him and perhaps feel threatened but yes, you are probably right, he is unlikely to be a legitimate claimant to the throne, he wouldn’t have the support.
Jenny,
Yeah, I think Dany may very well believe Jon’s parentage especially because she’s magical herself and has visions but for the average noble, I don’t imagine so. Mel can already sense something about Jon that she can’t put her finger on. I could be wrong but I sort of think Jon’s parentage is GRRM’s exploration of the hidden prince trope — maybe an actual hidden prince is written off as a derided bastard while the fake hidden prince is celebrated as the true king returning for some. Because the fake prince looks real and knows how to act while lacking Jon’s baggage.
k
Well, I think episode 4 of S8 is the point where Dany’s overall ambition becomes “problematic” from a protagonist perspective. Her ambition is that everyone bows down to her and accepts her as queen. If they don’t do that, they’re enemies to her like she stated herself. That’s huge ambition, too huge ambition for a “hero protagonist” I would say. If I assumed she ends up as a hero, my natural way of thinking would be that at one point, Dany would need to become more humble regarding her ambition… not actively pursuing such position of power anymore, more believeing in free will and if she would have eventually still become queen, it would be because people chose her and not because she would still actively want it. That’s how “hero” stories usually go, as you pointed out yourself above. Heroic protagonists usually don’t have THIS kind of ambition and even if they do, they usually need to humble themselves at one point. But Dany’s ambition for the Throne actually grew bigger and bigger. Early seasons (with exception of S2) made me think her primary goal is to help innocent people and be kind and good-hearted while her conquest to the Throne is not actually her priority… her decision to stay in Meereen even more made me think that. But the more her storyline of Meereen started coming to an end, the more it became obvious again that Iron Throne is her ultimate desire. By the time when she arrives to Westeros, her statements are already like that her entire life existence is based on her ultimate desire to get the Iron Throne and rule Westeros. This is when red flags started popping up all over the place for me again because to me, it seemed she wasn’t humbled at all and that the more powerful she got, the more intense her desire for the Throne was.
Now to me, the Long Night was the last chance to see Dany humble herself a bit and sadly it didn’t happen. As soon as the war was over, she rushed to defeat Cersei and suffered a terrible blow exactly because of this hurrying… losing both Rhaegal and Missandei and here, I think her downfall was set in place. I believe it’s partially her own fault that Rhaegal and Missandei died… a result of a poor decision that was sadly directly influenced by her huge ambition.
And regarding early S8 episodes, I think she already had some, for the lack of better word, problematic moments. First, she labeled the war against the White Walkers as Jon’s War and that she only came to help because she loved him… that’s not really true. because she landed in Westeros, proclaimed herself queen, wanted everyone to serve her so the war agains tthe White Walkers was very much her problem too because without defeating them, Westeros would be a continent filled with the undead. If she expected unconditional northern gratitude, I feel the Northmen would deserve the same back from Dany because they fought beside her against the White Walkers. I don’t think any side was in debt to the other, they were all in this together, they all helped each other save the world.
The second moment… well, her face expression after “What about the North?” line. To me at least, she looked very unsettled, even triggered by such suggestion. Maester Wolkan’s arrival interrupted the scene but who knows how it would have ended if Sansa and Dany continued conversation. Being outright unsettled by the idea of independent North, especially in moment when Dany and Sansa seemed to have initially found common ground… that was certainly a very worrying moment for me.
This is where I think her ambition becomes a big problem… she can prove herself as much as she wants but I don’t think this automatically makes her entitled to everyone bowing to her and I don’t think not wanting to submit to her makes someone a bad person. There was no alternative to Dany… she will rule no matter what in her head and if people would refuse to submit to her and accept her as queen, I imagine she was fully capable of proclaiming them traitors and destroying them. In Slaver’s Bay, it wasn’t hard to support her because not submitting to her pretty much equaled supporting slavery which is straight wrong. But in Westeros, there’s no such “pure good” goal in wanting the Great Houses submit to her… she wants them to submit because she wants to rule them and that’s it.
Mr Derp,
Shortest “Long Night” in history.
I admit I was disappointed. I was hoping the AotD would make it to KL Then there would’ve been real stakes: Breach the city walls = a million new recruits = Game over, man!
I was also kind of hoping Qyburn would use his FrankenGregor technology on some Flea Bottom “volunteers” to create a SuperZombie Regiment to defend against the AotD. (Harry & The Golden Company sure didn’t live up to their billing, did they? Poof! Wiped out in a matter of seconds. Should’ve brought the 🐘 🐘🐘.)
.[/spoiler]
Ten Bears,
Spur of the moment? She has a massive messiah complex and constantly threatened to burn cities to the ground. If ya ask me what Dany did in season 8 is something I totally see George doing.
Fire blood87,
Yes. Spur of the moment.
“Inside the Episode” S8e5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W8j6wOvxuo
Starting at 3:24
Adrianacandle,
About your “personal tinfoil” –
(a) had something to do with a negotiated truce to end the first Long Night?
(b) are going to have something to do with a negotiated truce to end the upcoming Long Nighf Redux?
(c) a + b
(d) Something else.
• On a related note… Do you have any thought about why 3ER, with his apparent ability to see all over the world and into the past through the tree network, hadn’t scoured the past to find out how the WW/Others threat (the alleged first Long Night) was resolved?
• Or… maybe he couldn’t get good reception in the area because cell phone towers … I mean the weirwood trees – had been chopped down?
• It does seem kind of strange that there were legends or accounts of the first Long Night and the hero(s) who dealt with it, and yet, there’s nothing about how he or they did it. (That info would sure come in handy now that the monsters are apparently making a comeback and getting ready to take their show on the road.)
Ten Bears,
Yeah, I speculate that
Well, we only meet the 3ER toward the end of ADWD. I think GRRM has said he’ll be wanting to reveal more about the Others in the next book.
Absolutely.
Not much is known about the first Long Night because it happened in ancient history — 6,000 or 8,000 years ago — but all that’s known is something major happened then world-wide. The most well-known tale — shared by a few cultures w/ their own version of it — about the end of the first Long Night came with Lightbringer in the Azor Ahai legend. I can include others if you like. I think it’s likely we’ll find out more about it and what truly happened between the living and the Others the first time around in the unpublished books.
Ten Bears,
But how much realistic chance would there be for White Walkers advancing past Winterfell and the protagonists still winning? In Winterfell, the protagonist had the army that was the most prepared against the White Walkers as it could be… combined forces of the North, Vale, Unsullied and Dothraki with two full grown dragons and everyone carried a dragonglass weapon, they were all in position for White Walkers’ attack and yet even so prepared army didn’t stand a chance of defeating them. White Walkers overpowered them and pretty much won at the end if Arya didn’t manage to sneak up on Night King at that exact right time. So imagine that the few survivors manage to escape battle of Winterfell and go to Dragonstone for example… White Walkers would reanimate everyone who died at Winterfell, adding tens of thousands to their army, then they would advance south, exterminate every human settlement they would find on the path, adding more and more undead warriors to their army. By the time they would have reached King’s Landing, their army could have been millions strong, the most prepared army would not exist anymore and entire Northern and Riverlands’ population would have been wiped out. Even if by any extreme chance the protagonists still managed to defeat White Walkers at KIng’s Landing, it would have been for the price of entire population of the North and Riverlands at least.
Of course everyone wanted a season-long war against the White Walkers after they crossed the Wall but with the TV show depiction of White Walkers, I don’t think that would be possible because White Walkers would have needed to be designed differently from get-go… certainly not as powerful and I guess also not as a weapon designed to wipe out humanity which eliminated every option of reasoning with them. Although I would say the actual war against the White Walkers started in episode 1 and lasted for 70 episodes… from their first appearance, they were already a direct threat to humanity, only for significant time, they weren’t a threat to entire continent but only to the lands beyond the Wall. By the time they crossed the Wall, it was already the beginning of the end in terms of the world.
If Jon does become King in the North in Winds – and I’,m almost certain he will via Rob’s Will and after over throwing the Boltons – then we should also presume he goes south and bends the knee to convince Dany to join the fight just like in the show. Do we all agree on that or does anyone have an alternative theory?
I’m just wondering then how that impacts other story lines, because I think Dany and Young Griff are probably battling it out and the Lannisters still hold Kings Landing at that point.
What I really wonder is how long will it take for Dany to even arrive to Westeros. GRRM said it will take a long time in book 6 before Tyrion and Dany meet which makes me think it takes a long time before Dany returns to Meereen. At best chance, I think Dany leaves at the end of 6th novel, if we assume that S6 adapted it to some exent. But now the big question comes… how will GRRM be able to wrap everything in 7th novel? We got a 13-episode season (S7/S8) for that, actualyl 16-episode season if we take into consideration there were five 80-minutes long episodes that add up runtime for 3 additional normal length episodes and there were still numerous complaints the story was rushed.
My assumption is that Dany arrives in Westoros at the end of Winds, probably in her last POV. I’m assuming her arc in WoW will be gaining leadership of the Dothraki (slightly different to the show), reclaiming Mereen, meeting Tyrion and setting sail. If memory serves Tyrion met Young Griff so that could be an entry point for him and Dany but I am clueless how he will first meet her given he’s still with Penny under the fighting pits and Dany is with the Dothraki, any ideas?
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I think she was quite diplomatic in the North, she could have conquered them in about 3 minutes but she was allowing them to treat her like crap most of the time. Personally, I think she should have given the North their independence, she did the same for the Iron Islands. I can’t decide if that’s inconsistent plotting or her drawing a line. If she lets the North go, what’s to stop other Kingdoms demanding the same? It’s a tough one for her, but I agree that she was getting more and more single minded by this point. She had already lost so much, I suppose she was desperate for proof that it was all worth it. That’s how I interpret her actions in The Bells now. She got what she wanted but it didn’t make up for what she’d suffered, so she went into a blind fury and snapped. D&D talked about her making it personal but I disagree, making it personal would be going straight for Cersei, what does Cersei care about the people? She set up a meat shield!
I agree about the WW being her problem but she could have gone back to Essos, do we know that the WW can cross the sea? It was her problem because it was happening in her Kingdom. A lot of people probably called it Jon’s war since he pulled everyone together and was the face of the thing. I can kind of see what she means there.
Initially I blamed Dany too, but thinking about it, if she’d waited a week, 2 weeks before going South. Euron would have ambushed her anyway. He’s not the smartest but if he had any sense, he’d camp out right next to DS until she got there. I think people sometimes forget how close DS is to KL, you have to go right past it to enter the bay at KL. That’s the whole point of fortifying it. Euron would have been chilling in that bay no matter what she did. Its easy to blame her for rushing, and the intention can’t be ignored, but it didn’t actually lead to many losses that she wouldn’t have suffered anyway
According to The World of Ice and Fire, some of the seas did freeze and darkness descended upon the world, making its way to Essos. In Yi Ti legends, the Five Forts were reportedly erected to “to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men”, which sounds to me like the Wall and the Others in the far North of Westeros. I’d imagine they’d be able to make it to Essos as well, perhaps after wiping out Westeros:
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
From word and page count, more can happen on one page of text vs. one page of a script (based on a random page — 400-450 words vs. 150-200 words) and a book may have 1500 pages vs. a script’s 45. The books are pretty involved with more plots, characters, etc. which is why the show had to adapt and simplify as it was. That said, GRRM can add a book if he needs to — he has that option and isn’t so limited by the needs of a cast, crew, writers, and production, who can only work on an intense series like this for so long. Like with Tolkien and even his own AFFC/ADWD, GRRM may need to split a particularly large volume into two. ASOIAF originally started as a trilogy, and then that expanded to five books and now the current estimation is at seven. If the books are ever released, it may be more than seven.
Well, the bold part is exactly the problematics I mentioned above and in fact my worry all along regarding Dany. As in if one kingdom doesn’t want to be under her rule and wants to exist in independence from her, does it give her the right to forcibly submit them to her rule simply because she wants to rule? For example, she manages to defeat Cersei and Euron without burning entire King’s Landing and she has the support from Crownlands, Reach, Dorne, Stormlands, Iron Islands and let’s say potentially from Westerlands after Cersei is defeated. But let’s say the North, Riverlands and the Vale don’t want to be under her rule. They won’t be hostile, they won’t mind if she rules the kingdoms that support her, but they don’t want to be part of her kingdom. In my eyes, they have every single right to not want to be part of her kingdom and she doesn’t have the right to force them into it. I was actually worried for entire time watching GoT that the TV series is pushing this mentality on me that everyone must submit to Dany, that she has every right to rule anyone she wants. And I’m so so glad it wasn’t the case and that Dany’s massive ambition was actually her undoing.
Well, I mean, that’s what the Starks did to the North. They weren’t elected into power:
The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Kings of Winter
Skagos didn’t want to be ruled by the Starks and rebelled against them. The Starks still “put them down”:
The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Stoneborn of Skagos
Independence needs the forces to enforce it, as well as an adequate defense and food/supplies to support themselves as a single nation. The North didn’t seem to have that so independence seemed pretty impractical. Dorne could probably support independence, Dany was open to the independence of the Iron Islands on conditions, but the North was struggling in just about every area. I’m not so sure the books will end with Northern independence, especially considering there’s a Stark king on the throne.
Plus, GRRM himself appears to value a unified kingdom over separate nations.
From his LJ:
I think their paths have already just about nearly crossed because Dany is at the fighting pits before Drogon arrives. In the fighting pits, Tyrion and Penny are forced to fight into a mock joust. Dany already disapproves of the fighting pits and the mock joust but forces herself to go along with this for the peace deal. However, she draws the line when she learns from Hizdahr that they are planning to set lions on the dwarves:
From Tyrion’s POV:
Adrianacandle,
But the TV show ended up by abolishing hereditary monarchy a.k.a no more birthright, no more divine right to rule, no more guaranteed throne. For me, it looked like the kingdoms are gaining more of an independent status from that because they’re now more equal and there’s no family ruling all of them from above but in fact the person they choose. Yes, they need to work together and cooperate in order to preserve peace, name right people as king/queen and such… just like in modern world, we have independent countries but the way to avoid wars is cooperation. So I think the TV show is definitely giving out some message that something was wrong with hereditary monarchy.
With a hereditary monarchy, yes, into a semi-elected monarchy under Bran Stark — but that’s still a central monarchy. That does not really mean the kingdoms will start breaking off or the North itself will be independent. I’m not even sure how that’d be feasible, considering the North is struggling as is and the monarchy would be required to look after its own kingdoms first.
What GRRM is talking about are unified countries, not separate countries with an amicable truce. And I’m not sure how long that truce would last until they start fighting again. Only leaders from a unified Westeros would be able to vote on a king, not the separate countries. Those separate countries would hold their own laws, not the laws of King Bran’s domain. They go by a hereditary monarchy — and it seems like the North is still doing that with Sansa — but they wouldn’t get a vote with who would succeed Bran.
Adrianacandle,
Hmmm, I don’t know… the ending really makes me think that this hereditary monarchy is not right at all and it was my interpretation that naming Bran as king was the king/queen of Westeros becoming more like a symbol of unity than an actual power-figure. ANd anytime North became independent during GoT (Robb, Jon and eventually Sansa) I was like “Yes!!” on inside because I absolutely loved the idea of getting free from the grip of Iron Throne and the idea of kingdoms needing to bow to Dany just because she wants to rule was extremely unpleasant to me. Then again, maybe real-life stuff is reflecting in my opinion.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Well, he’s still their king. He still holds that power, is the final word, and makes the final decision. I don’t think he’s just a symbol of unity. In the dragonpit scene alone, they elected a king to make these decisions — like what to do about Jon. And once elected, Bran made the call on exiling Jon as a compromise between the North and Dany’s supporters. He also granted Sansa’s request for Northern independence.
Robb and Jon were chosen but we don’t know the circumstances of Sansa’s crowning or if the North still abides by a hereditary monarchy (ie. the Northern crown would go to Sansa’s descendants). But also, the Starks themselves brutally conquered the North because they wanted to rule. Not every Northern house wanted the Starks as their monarchs. The Starks had to fight a brutal war, in which they ended many lines, to get that power. The surviving Northern houses had to bow to the Starks — even Skagos because the Starks put down their rebellion against Stark rule. Wanting to rule, conquest, and/or wanting to take back a family’s domain isn’t really unique to Targaryens/Dany. It’s just about the story of every empire/country/ruling family.
Mind if I take a contrarian stance, with the understanding that real-life stuff is affecting my opinion?
Naming Bran as a “symbol of unity” or for any reason is a non-starter in my book. Someone with a (supposedly) entertaining story but no experience, no empathy, and no compassion, who claims magical powers enable him to see things better than anyone, hardly inspires confidence. He sounds like a budding autocrat.
It should be a red flag that he installs his own family members in positions of power; has a Small Council composed of a criminal, a mercenary, and an unlicensed maester; has a history of sacrificing his companions to save his own skin; and does nothing to avert crises. Plus, his communication skills suck.
I’m doing a great job. Greyscale’s under control. It’s as harmless as diaper rash. It’ll disappear like magic. And those stories about White Walkers? Fake news!”
– King Bran the Broken
Adrianacandle,
”Well, he’s still their king. He still holds that power, is the final word, and makes the final decision.”
“Well I didn’t vote for you.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng
(at 2:05)
Yeah, neither did this viewer :/
Ten Bears,
Well, for me, naming Bran king works very well as I already said in my comment from October 30th 2020. For me, it represents a lot of hope, the whole ending represents a lot of hope for me and it gave me a very peaceful feeling. I seriously doubt the overall purpose of “The Iron Throne” episode was to give us gloomy feeling.
My own comment:
So when Bran was made king, it was very much hopeful in my eyes. Hopeful because I feel naming him as king and abolishing hereditary monarchy made the position of king not as being »overlord« but only as a symbol of unity while the actual fate of the Seven Kingdoms is in hands of the people. And I think that’s well symbolized in a scene where Bran leaves the council. Like »I took the position for you but now it’s up to you to prove people right. The power is in your hands«. So when I see the question, what’s the point in naming someone a king who is detached from everything? In my eyes, that’s exactly the point… that he’s not power-hungry, that he doesn’t approach the situation as someone who wants to hold people in his grasp but that he’s there as a symbol of unity, that he’s the symbol of »non-corruption« but it’s actually the people themselves that hold the power. In my eyes, Bran’s naming gradually lessens the impact of seat of power and with non-hereditary monarchy, the seat of power is now not guaranteed, but will need to be earned every time and it’s earned through values, not power. Bran’s ascension can serve well for the transition of this mentality, especially after such blow that Dany’s short ascension left in place. And in hopeful scenario, the new symbolic position of king will aspire hope in various kingdoms around Westeros so they don’t fight amongst ourselves for more land, power, and influence, but rather focus on what they have, what good they can do for their own people… in short, that the idea will spread that they have a choice and that they don’t follow whoever is above them for the sake of unconditional loyalty. Could the scene be more polished? Of course, I definitely feel so. But the idea behind it, I think it’s very much the right one.
I firmly stand by these words of mine and this is why naming Bran king is not controversial to me at all, like pretty much every other controversial point from S8 finale.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Okay, I apologize in advance for my overly confrontational tone here… I guess I’ve been commenting too much here in past couple days and I’m in need for a break. 😕
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I don’t know, at a certain point we might as well just say that she was wrong to want it at all. Conquering continents isn’t polite. If they refuse to show fealty, they get destroyed, same as every other conquest really. She was giving people an awful lot of time to debate it when she could have said ‘yes or die’. That at least would put her on the same level as her ancestors, not all of whom were mad.
Obviously the takeaway is that ruling by birthright is bad, since we saw sooooo many bad rulers in such a short time. That wasn’t the case before so I don’t really want to retroactively say that she was wrong to want it before that, that’s the way it was done at the time. D&D themselves said that under different circumstances, the Bells would never have happened and she would have been a good Queen.
Reply to Lord Parramandas:
Hey! You haven’t been overly confrontational at all! Your comments have been well-reasoned and your tone civil.
If I disagreed with you it’s because our perceptions differed and the “filters” we have from our own life experiences affect how we judge things. No need for you to apologize.
“There’s nothing to forgive, my Lord.”
Adrianacandle,
”From Tyrion’s POV:
…Nurse was paying out some silver to a pit man on a lost wager when he spied Penny leading Crunch.”
Thank heavens GRRM has assured us we’ll find out what happened to Penny and her pig!
The interminable wait for TWOW will have all been worth it!
/s
(/s = the symbol for sarcasm, right?)
Yes 🙂
Brief OT whine:
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I know we disagree on multiple topics and I can relate to how you feel when it comes to tone (more than once and at points in this very thread, I’ve felt my tone get too firm, terse, or strong and have regretted it) but I want to also assure you that you’ve been very civil. I think your tone has been just fine 🙂 Sometimes, I think it is nice to take a break from these discussions but I myself have noticed nothing wrong with your tone 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Re: Off-Topic Whine
(Before I thought better of it I was going to “joke” that 100 degrees is sweater weather down here. If accompanied by high humidity, going outside feels like you’re breathing in wildfire.)
Ten Bears,
OT whine about heat dome in Western Canada:
The first time I was in Florida (Pensacola area), I had flown straight from Calgary and the moment I got off the plane and was outside (because Pensacola’s airport was among the smaller airports), I swear I felt like I was breathing water. It felt sooooo strange! So I can see the wildfire comparison!
Jenny,
Well, that’s why an ambition for conquest is quite controversial topic I would say when it comes to protagonists… as you pointed out yourself, “heroic protagonists” rarely if ever have such ambition that wouldn’t be their “undoing” in at least one way if they don’t humble themselves a bit. It’s like revenge… revenge will never be idealized and glorified when it comes to “good guys”. That’s why I was waiting for Dany to get more humble about her ambition and when it never happened and in fact (in my eyes at least) grew stronger and stronger every season, to the point she was at odds with other main protagonists, I just knew it won’t end well. At the end of the day, I think Dany was a grey character like majority of GoT characters. I don’t think she was a “villain” all along but I don’t think she was a “heroic character” either when it came to her ambition. Liberating slaves, sure. Conquering Westeros? No, grey area at best in my opinion.
Ten Bears,
Adrianacandle,
Well, I’m glad you feel this way because after I wrote that response, I really felt drained and stressed and I keep feeling “frustrated” when I think of GoT fandom and all the negativity that surrounds it and for multiple days in a row, I can’t get those thoughts out of my head, that’s why I keep coming here, and it’s annoying as hell because GoT is one my my “golden trio” TV shows but instead of giving me pleasant feeling, I feel turmoil any time I think of it… sometimes I wish I started watching it after it was already over and that I had no access to any fandom, like I did with LOST back in 2011. Who knows, maybe it’s the time when I would need to rewatch it in order to experience all the feelings again and it would probably make me forget about the fandom for a while. Not counting the few episodes I watched together with my girlfriend, I haven’t watched it since it ended. But considering I’m rewatching Sopranos at the moment and watching Supernatural and THe Office for first time, I can’t fit GoT anywhere.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I get it. I think I felt similarly about the end of Buffy because its final season(s) and finale were also divisive. Lots of people weren’t happy (and that included me, which caused me no end of distress) and Buffy was my one-and-only for a time, my first real fan investment. Fandoms can sometimes enhance the experience — or just all out ruin it. I’ve experienced some of that with Harry Potter too. I was part of the early fandom as the original “Potter generation” and 2003-2011 was great! All my offline friends were into it, a great deal of my online friends were into it, I share a birthday with one of my close friends Jenna and we always made our birthday parties Potter themed
but then the (online) fandom turned…. odd. Add to that, my friends started moving away after finishing school. We scattered all around the world. One went to Japan, another to Germany, to the Netherlands, to Brunei, to England, Africa, just all over. And I just left the fandom altogether. For me, the feelings of distress fade over time, especially when I’d get re-invested in a new series, but I had to stop exposing myself to the negativity of the fandoms that turned sour.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
P.S. I love The Office and Parks and Rec is great too! Along those lines, you may want to give The Good Place and Superstore a try if you like The Office 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Yeah… from my own experience, I can sadly say that fandoms more than often stained my experience of something, especially stuff I love. With a lot of fandoms in my case is like that that they’re enriching my experience until they don’t anymore and then the feeling gets awful for me. I thought LOST FANS UNITE was an example of fandom where I could comfortably stay… it was for 3 years until it wasn’t when our admin grip on the group (and especially our admin-friendship bond) started falling apart. For most of the time, I’m able to share my TV show enthusiasm with my girlfriend because she’s a big TV show geek like myself… LOST, The Walking Dead, Supernatural, The Office… we can have endless enthusiastic talks about these. Even GoT was a big topic between us when she started watching it herself for the first time in summer/fall 2019 and was immediately in love with it… but only until our differences grew so big, especially opinions regarding Dany and Sansa, that it reached the point when I said I never want to talk about GoT with her again so we ended up pretty much erasing GoT from our talks. It’s now been just about a year since she finished watching and we barely said a word about GoT 😕. In fact, I try so hard that GoT never gets mentioned in our talks and the mere thought of that triggers me, even more because I remember how enthusiastic conversations we used to have, including watching certain episodes together when I was able to visit her.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Yeah, it’s that way for me with some friends too because our opinions are so polarizing that we just won’t talk about certain subjects anymore (not just with fandoms, but there is some of that too! But with some RL stuff as well). There is that loss but ultimately, I feel it’s for the best to preserve an otherwise fulfilling friendship as long as we respect those boundaries. I think what helps me cope when I’m feeling distressed is being able to privately vent to willing likeminded friends who do feel the same as me (and I feel the same as them) so we provide that mutual fulfillment with one another. When it comes to fandom stuff, some of my own friends are great with that stuff and enjoy the Tasha Rants (and vice versa!) Others are better for helping me get through tricky real life situations and letting me vent off steam before helping me honestly assess a situation and how to go forward. And I have other friends who are great for intense fandom debates over ramen and those ramen magical eggs 🙂 For me, I guess it comes down to the individuality of that person in my life. Some friends are great for helping to cope with fandom stuff and related wank 🙂 Others, not so much but they can help in other ways (especially with real life drama). That’s my look at things I think!
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
It does seem that there are a handful of “hot button” topics that divide the fandom, and characters like Sansa & Dany that fans (like
you and your gf, apparently) seem to perceive wildly differently.
Plenty of things about the show that were awesome to more than balance it all out. I try not to lose that perspective.
Adrianacandle,
“The dwarfs were herded off, pig and dog and all, as the spectators hissed their disapproval and pelted them with stones and rotten fruit.”
Att’n: Young Dragon
⚠️
During the mock jousts involving Penny and her pig in the Fighting Pit,
.
Adrianacandle,
”When it comes to fandom stuff, some of my own friends are great with that stuff and enjoy the Tasha Rants (and vice versa!).”
“Tasha Rants.” Good name for a podcast.
Ten Bears,
Oh, if only I had Petra’s voice for it!
Well, this is me… actually, this was me 4 years ago to be accurate. 😅 If I made a video these days, my voice would probably be a bit deeper than here and I would speak in more relaxed tone. It’s so far the only video review I made for GoT but who knows, maybe I will do Memory Lane videos in future like I did for LOST when I was still in LFU group.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Ten Bears,
Something that had occurred to me to mention — Penny and her brother Oppo rode Penny’s pig and dog in the mock joust with the dwarves at Joffrey’s wedding. Penny rides the dog, Oppo rides the pig.
When Oppo is later killed in ADWD and upon Tyrion and Penny being sold into slavery, Tyrion does ride Penny’s pig in acts.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you! I take that as a compliment!
Adrianacandle,
My apologies…
You wrote:
My comment and question was directed to Young Dragon
. (I’m just waiting for him to resurface again.)*
I should have made that clear for your sake. I can see why what I wrote made little sense.
* I think it had to do with my concern, as touched on by Petra, that my potential enthusiasm for HotD’s portrayal of Targ history might be tempered by the outcome of GoT, in which we learned of the eventual extinction. of House Targaryen. As with House Reyne and House Hollard,
Who cares about them?
Likewise, during Tywin’s (show-only) chat with Arya about “legacy” in the “blasted ruin” of Harrenhal, he told her how Harren the Black and all of his sons roasted alive in those walls.
There weren’t any Harren descendants running around in GoT as far as I recall. I don’t know if there are any Harren progeny among the thousands of book characters that were omitted from the adaptation, or if “Aegon … and his sisters” effectively wiped out that family.
If they too were beaten, annihilated, and destroyed, I wouldn’t be excited for a prequel series about Harren the Black or his ancestors.
Anyway, sorry again for the confusing Penny and 🐖 detour.
Ten Bears,
Oooh! I see! 🙂 Maybe you can post another musical interlude in the meantime if you were up for it?
As for the Targaryen name dying out, I think Petra also mentioned the ability to compartmentalize and I may have thought of another example to that end: I believe the Tudor line dies with Elizabeth I. Yet, stories about the Tudors are done over and over and over and over. Personally, I think this story of HotD has the advantage of occurring 200 years prior to the events of ASOIAF/GoT and it can be separated a bit in that way. Completely different era, setting, characters, stories, lives. I’ve never really been bothered by stuff like that when there is a degree of separation as long as it’s an interesting and engaging story but of course, this is all just speaking for myself and YMMV.
I think, if it were a good story, I would be interested — even knowing the end. I don’t know if there’s any progeny running around either actually.
Well, to add to the Penny detour a bit, I can give the names of Penny’s pig and dog: Pretty Pig and Crunch 🙂
Pretty Pig seems surprisingly “pink” for this story — it sounds like a name you’d hear in My Little Pony or Carebears…. Pretty Pretty Pig. Anyway, she eventually becomes Tyrion’s noble steed in acts: Pretty Pig.
If I remember rightly book Littlefinger had something to do with triggering Joffrey to hire the dwarves (mind you, I only read the books once and not multiple times). Also, in the books it is a character who plays a larger part (literally) than he did in the show who apparently put a couple of Lord Frey’s offspring into a pie and not Arya. Book Arya is still in Braavos.
Off topic, my computer updated a couple or three weeks ago and I haven’t been able to download files. Google hasn’t helped much – I’ve tried looking at the Windows settings and they are what they are supposed to be and have also tried temporarily disabling McAFee and have had no luck. I don’t suppose any of the more technically minded visitors to this site have any ideas? While I worked full-time I kept up to date reasonably with Microsoft software at least but not so much lately. I’ve been looking online – both at videos and technical sites generally but nothing has worked. There is a repair shop (where I bought the laptop originally) so I may have to go there eventually if all else fails.
I think you’re right. I think LF does arrange the employment of the dwarves and the mock joust to prompt a conflict between Joffrey and Tyrion so that Tyrion will look even more guilty when Joffrey is poisoned.
As for your Windows system, I haven’t used Windows in a long time — only Mac — but I can ask my dad?
Adrianacandle,
You can ask your fond papa if you like, Ariana. I’m still on Windows 7. I’ve got Edge and Chrome as browsers but I can’t download from either system.
Going back to GoT, the Frey pies plot point was more subtle from my recollection – as was Theon’s mutilation.
Dame of Mercia,
”Also, in the books it is a character who plays a larger part (literally) than he did in the show who apparently put a couple of Lord Frey’s offspring into a pie and not Arya.”
Yes, I read and enjoyed the passages involving
I understood he was a book! fan favorite and I can understand why. He had some memorable speeches and conversations
Manderly’s “the North remembers. Ser Davos” speech was well written. And of course the in-progress Frey Pies storyline is wickedly fun.
So it appears that not only did the show “take” the
To top it off, I recall reading that the showrunners were so impressed with Bella Ramsey’s portrayal of Lyanna Mormont in her scene in S6e7 (“Welcome to Bear Island”)
The corpulent character and the actor who played him were reduced to delivering an odd speech during Jon’s KitN coronation, crediting Jon for something he did not quite do: “Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding! He is the White Wolf…”*
I guess Lord Manderly hadn’t yet watched S6e10 and the S7e1 cold open, in which Arya Stark singlehandedly avenged the Red Wedding.
* [Note: At this point I pressed “pause” on my remote and thought “The White Wolf? Where’s Ghost? Shouldn’t the camera pan to Ghost for a couple of seconds? Then I pressed “Play” to resume watching..,]
I thought at least they might give a shout out to that character and White Harbor when Arya boarded her customized direwolf ship at thx end of the finale. (Someone had to have a shipyard and the expertise to build her a cruise ship.) But nope…
Adrianacandle,
“Oooh! I see! 🙂 Maybe you can post another musical interlude in the meantime if you were up for it?”
Sure! Stand by. I’ve got one with accompanying photographs…
⚠️ Musical Interlude
Dedicated to: Night King
From: Sandor’s Captured Wight 🧟♂️
Making me crawl in the dust again.”🎶
Caution! 🚩Risqué lyrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTOcUXDt4z0
– Chrissie Hynde & The Pretenders
• Here’s a black and white photo
https://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Photographer-Kate-Simon-and-performer-Chrissie-Hynde-lifting-the-front-of-her-mohair-jumper-from-Sex-London-1976.-.jpg
…continued in Part 2
continued from Part 1
• Here is a photograph of
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dwdhjv8UwAArTC-.jpg
And second from the right, next to Chrissie Hynde, is “Jordan,” who will be played in the series by Maisie Williams.
Because…
“All Roads Lead to Arya”
• Here’s a picture of
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NINTCHDBPICT000644622113.jpg
💉
Ten Bears,
Ooooh, nice song choice and I like the angle: captive wight to the NK XD
Dame of Mercia,
Okay! I will ask him this week-end if you can wait a day or two! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
”Ooooh, nice song choice and I like the angle: captive wight to the NK XD”
• a response to beating a dead horse and overheated discussion threads in addition to
“Let It Go” or “Let’s Call The Whole Thing Off”; or
• as a dedication to Gendry (from Sandor) to stop whinging in S7e6, Beyond the Wall:
🎶 “It is time for you to stop all of your sobbing.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTVqZNObw5o
– or –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J55m5awtEeI
Adrianacandle,
and Jai,
I had thought of the “I am become death” quote which comes from the Mahabarat (sp?) after the loot train sequence in GoT season 7 (I believe the inventor of the atom bomb referenced that saying when he saw what an atom bomb could do – at the testing stage). Peter Brooks’s (shortened obviously) version of the Mahabarat from circa the late 1980s/early 1990s can be seen on YouTube I believe. I liked it – with the international cast – because it made it accessible to me though I believe a number of people from the Indian sub-continent had reservations about it. I have also heard that the “I am become death” isn’t an exact translation but a near as possible translation of the original language in which the work was written. I don’t speak any Indian languages so I can’t judge.
Adriana, I won’t be doing anything about my laptop till next week anyway. I phoned up the shop that has done repair work for me on computers before and the man in charge said he’d had another client who had had a similar problem. If all else fails I’ll take the laptop there – they are decent; once I had a printer they couldn’t repair and they didn’t charge me for the labour they had done so that was kind of them.
Ten Bears,
I’m afraid by the time I got to ADWD the enthusiasm I had for the first three books of ASOIAF had waned somewhat. In the books Lyanna Mormont has so far only been mentioned as regards to her letter (which in the show was pretty accurate to the book – the letter that is). When Wylla Manderley appeared I thought – not another spunky Arya type girl. You can have too much of a good thing. I preferred show Davos to book Davos if I’m honest. I’m NOT saying ADWD is totally bad (in my opinion) but I didn’t like it as much as the earlier books, though there are some good parts to the book. I know a lot of people didn’t warm to show Euron but I loathed book Euron too. These were just my feelings and if people feel completely differently to me that’s perfectly fine (as long as we don’t start trading insults).
Dame of Mercia,
I was the same really. I really enjoyed Crows for the Jaime/Cersei/Brienne chapters, that little threesome is my favourite part of the books so it was never boring to me, though it was for a lot of people. I didn’t miss Jon/Dany/Tyrion that much and I only really liked Jon’s chapters in Dance. The walls were slowly closing in and it felt ominous. Meereen just isn’t that interesting to me, even though it mirrored Jon’s rule in a way. I don’t know what to make of book Euron yet, but I prefer him to the pitiful clown we got in the show, but he’s not a great character, I can only hope that he has a greater impact than the show version, maybe stealing a dragon with that horn. Victarion on the other hand. I HATE him
This is going back a little ways, but there was an interview with one of the cast members of HotD and the reaction was kind of strange to me. She said that there was less violence against women and people seemed mad about it. It made me uncomfortable to be perfectly honest. I assumed that she meant no more scenes like Ros having to beat another girl for Joffrey, or scenes like Crastors Keep where rape was literally set dressing. Neither was necessary. Honestly, some parts of GOT have aged really badly imo. I’m sure that woman is still going to get eaten by a dragon in HotD
For myself, AFFC and ADWD didn’t “age well” compared to first three novels when I started re-reading the novels in the order every year during early seasons of the TV show. I read the first novel for the first time back at the beginning of 2011 (or maybe it was late December 2010?), without knowing there will be a TV show… after I finished reading it and looked on internet if there’s any visual adaptation to it, I found out the TV show was set to come out in a few months. I read the second novel shortly after that and I read the third novel when S1 was already on air. In that same year in fall, AFFC was released in our country in my native language (they got released here quite late… AGOT in 2006, ACOK in 2008, ASOS in 2010, AFFC in 2011 and ADWD in 2012) so I actually bought it (a hardcover book) for 40 euros and still own it. I read it a few times then as it was the only ASOIAF book I firmly owned (the rest, I would have needed to borrow from the library). I actually didn’t mind it that much the first time but then in 2012, I started re-reading all the novels before and during S2 run and I eventually purchased ADWD (again for 40 euros) as it was released that year. I can also say that during first reading of first three novels, I wasn’t that invested yet but as the TV show came out, my interest in novels grew way bigger and my second read was way “deeper”… but that’s also the time when I saw how superior first three novels are to me compared to AFFC and later to ADWD. I repeated my tradition of re-reading the novels in 2013 and in 2014 but I kept more and more realizing that AFFC and ADWD are simply not entertaining to me… and then when S5 got released (which I enjoyed a lot), I dropped AFFC and ADWD from my reading schedule completely because I realized I don’t need to strain myself to read through all that bloated text, especially considering a condensed/modified visual version existed which I enjoyed way more than these two novels. I did re-read ADWD independently before S6 release (I wasn’t doing the full re-read then) but I pretty much haven’t touched AFFC for 7 years. Back in late 2018, I decided to do the re-read again of all novels again, for the first time since 2014. I really enjoyed reading through first three novels again (even though I’m generally more of a TV show person when it comes to my investment in GoT). I tried to start AFFC again but I felt so… for the lack of better word, alienated in that novel that I gave up after 6 chapters. I never got to ADWD as a result. I still own these two novels, both in hardcover form and it kind of makes me sad because they’re both still in such nice shape but I kind of don’t see any point in reading them again, unless TWOW comes out and ends up being entertaining to me. I actually wish I could purchase first three novels in hardcover form but they’re only selling papercover books which are way more annoying to read in my case and they so easily get damaged… the only advantage is that they’re waaaay cheaper than hardcover.
Adrianacandle,
(My apologies for not responding sooner. Had some fun times here in Seattle over the past few weeks.)
“…maesters do wield influence and power. They’re not likely to dismiss the unexplained death of a noble.”
Maester Wolkan watched silently as Ramsay stabbed Roose. That was not only death of a noble, it was patricide, the worst form of kinslaying. If any other Maesters ever learnt about it, it was never mentioned in the show.
I’m not saying Baelish had planned to have Sansa murder Ramsay, let alone it was a good plan if he did. I’m saying speculation along these lines fits well with what we know about Baelish.
Jenny,
“…no more scenes like Ros having to beat another girl for Joffrey, or scenes like Crastors Keep where rape was literally set dressing. Neither was necessary.”
The show keeps hinting that Joffrey’s problems include some sexual dysfunction, and this is a source of frustration driving his cruel behavior. (It also keeps Baelish from bribing Joffrey with women.) Craster is a cruel patriarch, and patriarchal culture is rape culture.
The horrible situation at Craster’s Keep, which the Night’s Watch could easily end, gets tolerated because of Craster’s supposed value to the Watch. But Craster’s practices are strengthening the Night’s King and Army, and the failure of the NW to understand this nearly gets them destroyed.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I hope you had a good time! And didn’t get caught up in the heat dome 🙁 Those were (are) some awful temperatures. It made its way here (to southern Alberta) too.
My problem is — how could LF be certain Maester Wolkan would dismiss a death, if he did at all? What about other witnesses, Bolton loyalists, castle workers? How can he be sure everybody would keep quiet? I feel there are too many problems with this plan with very little control — and I don’t think the showrunners actually had LF give Sansa a plan to work with. That’s part of my issue with this whole set up of LF arranging for Sansa to marry Ramsay and Sansa actually agreeing to it. There are too many holes and I don’t really see evidence for LF really thinking these issues through — which is odd for LF’s character.
Per Aiden Gillen, LF didn’t know about Ramsay:
It seems LF didn’t really do his homework on this.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Indeed, we knew that Joffrey had these issues, but did we need a drawn out scene depicting it? I’d say absolutely not. Did we need to see a naked Ros strung up with bolts in her chest? Absolutely not. I felt it was gratuitous. Re: Crastor’s Keep, I’m thinking about S4, when the deserters took over and held the women hostage. It was vile. These things don’t always need to be shown in graphic detail, even when they are part of the plot. Sexposition is one thing, I make fun of it because I find it juvenile, but it’s harmless. Graphic depictions of violence is less so. A little of restraint would have been nice.
Jenny,
I disagree about the need to tone down violent scenes. Even more because the source novels are very graphic in violence descriptions themselves. In my eyes, this intense graphic depiction of violence both on screen and on page was part of GoT’s “DNA”. It was present from very first scene when the NW rangers find massacred Free Folk and it lasted all the way to the end. I’m very glad the show didn’t tone down a thing regarding tone and scenes with seasons… something that usually pisses me off the most in TV shows is if the TV show starts on really dark note and eventually gets more tame in later seasons… if that happens in any TV show I watch, no matter how much I may initinally love it, I grow big resentment towards it. As uncomfortable as some scenes were, I wouldn’t want it any different because GoT wouldn’t be GoT for me then. In fact, I’m actually significantly worried regarding HotD in terms of its tone because of those latest statements, especially considering it’s even more twisted story than GoT. If I wanted clean fantasy story, I wouldn’t watch GoT in first place.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I feel differently about sexual violence sorry (for an obvious reason) there are better ways to handle such scenes imo. I nearly quit the show numerous times because of that. Hearing that HotD will handle things differently is a good thing imo. It can still be dark and brutal, it can still include sexual violence but not in such a gratuitous way. They handled Dany’s scenes with Drogo better, as a main character she got a bit more respect than poor Ros and other supporting cast/extras
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Sorry just wanted to add. TV shows normally go heavy on nudity and violence in the beginning to keep the audience interested. They don’t trust people to keep watching. Once they have the audience hooked they start to tone it down. Which is why I call it juvenile, they know exactly what they are doing. That HBO exec on set representing the pervert of the audience ugh. Besides, GOT absolutely did tone down its nudity and sexual violence. After Craster’s Keep in S4, there was Sansa’s rape, which was never shown. They were going to show the Mountain assaulting Unella in S5 but they didn’t because everyone hated Sansa’s scene so much. I can’t remember which Season had Theon’s castration, possibly 4? That was over the top as well. The violence, as in fight scenes remained the same all the way through. I’m just saying that they can choose what to show, when to show it, and how often. GOT didn’t always get it right.
Jenny,
GoT and “gratuitous” don’t exist in same dictionary for me, considering the source material. I always very much liked that GoT didn’t shy away from depicting all sorts of violence on screen and keeping very dark and more than often disturbing tone through it. ANd while I do think it toned down nudity itself from S4 onwards, I don’t think it ever toned down violence itself. On other hand, when I watched “The Leftovers” (which up to this day remains the only TV show I completed but didn’t enjoy), I completely despised when S2 made a big tonal shift from disturbing dark S1 and never returned to the roots that were the main reason why I even gave that TV show a chance.
Adrianacandle,
”I don’t think the showrunners actually had LF give Sansa a plan to work with. That’s part of my issue with this whole set up of LF arranging for Sansa to marry Ramsay and Sansa actually agreeing to it. There are too many holes and I don’t really see evidence for LF really thinking these issues through — which is odd for LF’s character.”
Yup. As you know, I disliked everything about the LF-Sansa- Bolton marriage “plan.” None of it made sense. (“Avenge them.” … Uhhh, how?)
It was presumptuous of the showrunners to think they could mix and match characters. and slot in Sansa for Jeyne Poole. (Why the showrunners “loved” the Jeyne Poole storyline so much that they just had to keep it in and transfer it to Sansa, I’ll never know.)
Sorry. There’s so much I loved about the show. But everything about the LF Bolton marriage plan was awful. No logic. This show-only divergence meant that LF had to be clueless and Sansa had to regress – again – to another season of being a punching bag.
I don’t buy the justification for shoehorning Sansa into the Theon – Ramsay WF plot in place of Jeyne: Supposedly, to give Sophie and Sansa something to do in S5.
In retrospect, it would have been better to have her sit out S5,. Future king Bran disappeared for all of S5.
Or, if they didn’t like Sansa’s Vale storyline in the books, then why not beef it up with a smart storyline showing Sansa becoming a “smart and savvy politician” instead of telling us? I would have enjoyed that, and it would have been a logical progression from one of my favorite Sansa scenes: (the end of S4e8, walking down the staircase in her new Cat 2.0 outfit, silhouetted in sunlight, as LF’s jaw drops. )
(Is it too challenging or time-consuming to write scenes demonstrating a character’s evolving intelligence?)
I thought her post S4 trajectory would show her gaining influence, allies and wisdom among the Vale lords and Robyn. That way, she could have “rejoined” the show’s storyline in progress, leading the KotV to help Jon: a triumphant return for Sansa, without the ambiguity and inexplicable behavior we saw on the show and resulting fan confusion (e.g., concealing the KotV. 🐴 ⚰️ )
Hell, as long as the show was screwing around with the butterfly effect, it would have been better to have Sansa:
(a) Hide out incognito in Winter Town;
(b) Meet up with the Hound; or
(c) Spend S5 at the Wall, hanging out with Jon, Stannis, Selyse or Melisandre; or
(d) Undermining LF behind the scenes; or
(e) Actually plotting to “avenge” her family; or
(f) Demonstrating leadership abilities and charisma to the Northern lords and Vale lords, to set up her eventual elevation to QitN; or
(g) Meeting up and traveling with Brienne;
(h) Just about anything other than the S5 WF rape and abuse/ victimization sh*tshow.
– End Part 1 of Unintended Rant –
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Interesting, i’ve only ever seen unanimous praise for The Leftovers. I don’t have access to it in the UK, I don’t really want to buy it without seeing it. I like Lindelof so I do want to watch it. Isn’t S2 dealing with the aftermath? A change in tone would make sense, but I don’t know much about this one.
I think GOT could be gratuitous. I don’t remember Littlefinger monologuing in front of 2 prostitutes simulating sex in the book. lmao, I remember watching that and praying nobody walked in, I was legit embarrassed to be watching something so stupid.
I think they probably learnt a thing or two while making the show and they are going to carry that forward into HotD. Even filming intimate scenes is different now, there were no intimacy coordinators on GOT, and plenty of sad accounts from uncomfortable actors. That is changing now thankfully.
I put violence and sexual violence into 2 categories. The violence was consistent throughout, the sexual violence wasn’t, I think it only happened once after S4 and they cut away. Which is exactly my point, a show can include sexual violence without long drawn out scenes depicting it. I only really mention nudity because it always seemed to happen in the over the top scenes. Sansa and Dany were fully clothed in their rape scenes and they were incredibly disturbing, even Sansa’s very brief scene is burned into my memory, they clearly had some idea of when it was and wasn’t appropriate. Cutting away can be more effective than showing it sometimes. Seeing Jon prevent an attack in The Bells tells us that it is happening all over the city, that’s grim even though we didn’t see it. Nudity itself isn’t a big deal, that was almost non existant post S4. It naturally petered out and became less relevant to the story, it became more and more fantasy focused before turning political again. The tone of the show changed a lot over time.
Adrianacandle,
It seems LF didn’t really do his homework on this.
Baelish was a creature of the South, not the North, and House Bolton had kept Ramsay’s, um, interests well hidden. (Even if Baelish had kept a brothel in the North, we saw Ramsay’s sexual exploits were never with sex workers, and always seemingly consensual.) I would put Baelish’s mistake in the category of, “well, it seemed like a good idea at the time…”
Jenny,
Indeed, we knew that Joffrey had these issues, but did we need a drawn out scene depicting it? I’d say absolutely not. Did we need to see a naked Ros strung up with bolts in her chest? Absolutely not. I felt it was gratuitous.
Those two scenes are related, and by more than the sexualized violence (only the results of which are shown in the latter case). Tyrion procured the women in the first scene, trying to buy his way into Joffrey’s good graces, and Joffrey sent Tyrion a clear message in return. Ros had been spying on Baelish for Varys, and Baelish’s cold and cruel narration to Varys (!) of how Ros would therefore die always sends chills down my spine. Everything about those scenes makes the audience uncomfortable, and for very good reason. The visuals you mentioned were, in the eyes of this viewer at least, key to making those scenes as nastily uncomfortable as possible.
Crastor’s Keep, I’m thinking about S4, when the deserters took over and held the women hostage. It was vile.
Yes, yes it was. Lord Commander Jorah Mormont and Maester Aemon had made a huge mistake in allowing Craster’s Keep to exist at all, and it got the former killed in a brutal manner. (The detail of the mutineers later using his skull for an ale horn was great! These characters are horrible.) The audience’s initial shock at seeing Craster’s behavior through Jon Snow’s innocent eyes gets compounded later, as the women suffer even more under the men who are supposed to protect them.
And to show I’m an equal-opportunity kind of Mage, I must here also plug for two other scenes which made viewers squirm. The Ramsay-Theon torture scenes are some of my favorites in the entire series, both for the quality of acting by Alfie Allen and Iwan Rheon, and for the impact they made. When I first watched Season 3, I thought each episode had a scene of Ramsay torturing Theon; in fact, there are just three such scenes.
The rampage of the Faith Militant (formerly Sparrows, until Cersei armed them) through King’s Landing in Season 5 features their destruction of one of Baelish’s brothels. One of the couples taken en flagrante by the Faith Militant are two men, a middle-aged customer and his younger, but still fully-adult, male sex worker. The local leader of the Faith Militant condemns their actions before gleefully torturing the client to death. Until now, the Sparrows have been seen feeding the poor and tending to the downtrodden; this punch in the gut to HBO’s modern, liberal audience makes very clear the evil inherent to the Sparrows’ fanaticism.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I’m glad it worked for you, I totally respect your opinion and people will have varying tolerance for this sort of thing. I hated those Theon scenes, specifically the one with the two girls when he was castrated (not sure if that’s the right word but it will do). It was so gross, and not in an entertaining way. I’m not generally squeamish, i’m a big fan of horror but sometimes GOT would just gross me out in a bad way, and I loved the show to death despite that.
I don’t recall any effort to keep Ramsay’s actions hidden. Yet this would be something LF would work hard to try and find out, especially if it deals with a piece of missing information. He tells Cersei, “Knowledge is power,” and this is Sansa. I don’t think LF would just leave things like this up to chance, especially when House Bolton has a notorious enough reputation as it is with their flaying activities.
Jenny,
”… I assumed that she meant no more scenes like Ros having to beat another girl for Joffrey, or scenes like Crastors Keep where rape was literally set dressing. Neither was necessary. Honestly, some parts of GOT have aged really badly imo.”
As for not aging well, a lot of unnecessary brutality (and “torture porn”) seems to pervade TV shows and movies. I don’t know why that became so common – and acceptable.
I’m reminded of a recurring scene in old black and white movies from the 40’s and 50’s I’d see now and then on Turner Classic Movies:
A man and a woman are arguing. He starts mansplaining and shouting. She becomes “emotional” (i.e., “hysterical” ). He slaps her face to “quiet” her.
Then they embrace and kiss passionately.
WTF? When was that ever normal human behavior? If a guy ever pulled that crap in real life and slapped my sister in the face like that, he’d get a well-deserved kick in the b*lls, or his eyes sprayed with mace.
My point – if there is one – is that unnecessary scenes of violence are normalized by showing them on screen. GoT went overboard sometimes, whether it was Joffrey and Ros, or the Ramsay sadism overkill. (Yeah. Okay. I get it. He’s a vicious sadist. Were all of those lengthy, redundant scenes of torture and mayhem really necessary to drive home that point?)
Ten Bears,
I think sometimes Is the important word. It was mostly very effective. I’m absolutely not asking for violence of any kind to be removed. It’s unfortunately part of everyday life. Although most people aren’t out there sword fighting and being burned by dragons, there is a disconnect there. Domestic and sexual violence is sadly very very common and effects too many people. So it deserves some care when depicted. It seems like HotD will do that
Ten Bears,
Yeah, I agree with many of these comments. I think there were better ways to go about these issues if they didn’t like what GRRM had planned for Sansa in the Vale post-book 4.
⚠️July 4 Holiday Musical Interlude
– Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers [audio]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhb-kNvL6M
1spoiler]“American Girl” live 2002
Tom Perry & The Heartbreakers[/spoiler]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqYZLNMDVJc
🤐 🐑 🐑
🦬 💵
⚠️ Holiday Musical Interlude, Continued
Linda Ronstadt live Apr. 24, 1980
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7xz-l9BQoc
– Linda Ronstadt & Chuck Berry,
live 1986
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWTKxIjZmfs
🇺🇸
Sorry to make the thread all serious. I respect that everybody will have a different opinion on this. I’ve said my piece so i’m happy to leave it alone. I’ve actually just started a S1 rewatch, its so jaunty! I’ve only seen the last 3 seasons twice at most, and never back to back. So it will be interesting to do a full run through for the first time before setting it aside
Well, I also heard nothing but praise for Leftovers, especially as during the time I watched it (early 2018), I was an admin in LOST group and everyone kept praising it there… all fellow co-admins, my girlfriend as well as she watched it herself in 2017. Everyone told me: “If you love LOST, you’ll love Leftovers too” and ironically, when I went to watch Leftovers with my usual one-episode-a-day pace, I actually really enjoyed the first episode and I was sure this would be an entertaining journey… until I started to realize about 4-5 episodes in I’m not really enjoying it… definitely not in a way that I thought I would. But as I was nearing the end of S1, there were some good episodes, especially 8 and 10 (the finale) and hearing from everyone it gets better from S2 onwards, I kept going. After all, it only had 28 episodes. But as soon as I entered S2, red flags started popping all over for me.. the tone completely changed for me. The subtle feeling of some “dread” from S1 was gone and all that I was watching now was characters being very messed up in the head while the world around them was functioning normally. Then again, late S2 got better and S2 finale was great to me, so I decided to keep going again, even more because I knew S3 had incredibly high ratings on IMDB. But when I entered S3, that’s when I became all “WTF am I even watching???” If I thought characters were messed up in S2, S3 elevated it to new level of absurdity for me. There were two episodes in that season that I actually enjoyed a lot, episode 4 and 7 (penultimate). But the overall story, whatever-it-was-supposed-to-be… I ended up being frustrated with the characters. While I more than often like seeing protagonists mentally struggle, Leftovers raised it to such absurd level for me that I ended up feeling no sympathy at all for them.
I don’t know where it went wrong for me with this show. By that point, it never happened to me I would take a “wrong gamble” with a TV show… that I would go watch something that I would eventually not end up liking it at all. EVen if the shows I decide to watch are not my ultimate favorites, I almost always end up enjoying it overall. I’m starting to feel now that I had a completely wrong premise in my head for Leftovers after watching the Pilot… I imagined something more… unnatural, more sinister. I thought it would give me the vibe like the island of LOST… a constant feeling of some unnatural presence, fully knowing from get-go it’s there and that the picture would eventually become more clear to us audience. But whatever I enjoyed LOST for, it wasn’t there for Leftovers to me.
And considering there’s again rant about Sansa’s S5 storyline above, I’ll repost my old comment why I DO enjoy that story:
(Originally written on March 14 2021)
So what was there for me to love about Sansa’s S5 WF story when I look at overall story:
– Her being one of the characters, I was attatched to from quite early on, I obviously appreciated her 9-episode presence this season with possibly most screentime so far compared to other seasons. In the 2000 page AFFC/ADWD, Sansa in total has three chapters where she’s (in my eyes) barely more than a passive walking camera when nothing big occurs around her, and the only two notable characters present are Littlefinger and Robin.
– The fact that despite the horrific events, Ramsay never broke her. That’s a BIG deal for me, especially for character I love.
– The fact that she planted a seed of doubt in Ramsay (and AFTER the abuse) which eventually led to Ramsay killing Roose, which automatically put Ramsay to more disadvantage in upcoming battle. I’m sure that conversation was there for a reason.
– The fact that she actively managed to penetrate THeon’s Reek personality. And again repeating the word, ACTIVELY. She tried more than once and her second conversation with Theon in “Hardhome” is very powerful to me. “Tell me you didn’t kill my brothers!” – I would argue this is probably the most intense that Sansa got in the entire duration of the show so far. This time exploding with emotions and anger and resistance and for a change, she was the one having the initiative in conversation instead of being the one to be talked down by someone more powerful. Was there any scene like that from her prior to this one? I really can’t think of any and while I obviously remember Hardhome the most by its… well, Hardhome sequence, Sansa/Theon confrontation is the second favorite scene that I connect with this episode.
– The fact that she plotted her own escape. SHe wasn’t successful, but we actually saw her do something on her own for the first time without any powerful figure pulling strings on her.
– The fact that a STARK is brought back to Winterfell. S5 is the first time Winterfell is featured after S2 and while it’s occupied by Boltons, seeing Sansa walk through its hallways was a ray of light for me in otherwise twisted season.
– The fact that THeon and Sansa reunited… possibly the first reunion after multiple seasons of protagonists not being in presence of each other.
– The fact that Theon’s awaited breakthrough was a direct result of an important character
– The fact that Sansa is never the same after this… she’s never a passive character again. THe old “little bird” Sansa is fully gone now because now she’s fed up with everything, full of anger, full of her own agency. Not saying this change always brought her to good places, especially certain coversations, but I hell of appreciate the person who emerged from all this. In the novels, she’s still very passive and in my eyes, she’s not much different than she was during her captivity in KL. Here, already starting DURING her captivity in Winterfell (in my opinion), she’s already different and I could very quickly see the contrast, even before she escaped. And I really don’t think she would have become this character at the end of S5 if she was still under Littlefinger’s strings, sitting in the Vale and doing nothing.
– THe fact that this story leads to her reunion with Jon, which I must have watched like 30 times in the same day because I was so immensely touched by that scene. Not to Littlefinger, to Jon! And while Littlefinger still has some influence over her, it’s in my opinion nowhere close to how it was prior to S5.
– THe fact that it’s her who sets in motion the events for reclaiming Winterfell. Jon was fully ready to just go away and live his life on his own. But Sansa convinced him otherwise and the wheels were set in motion for in my opinion second most positive moment for the story itself, second only to defeating WW and saving the world.
So I have 11 points now, I imagine if I thought more about it, I would have been able to dig up some more but this will do for now. If I’m given a choice between this and the written mess that I tormented myself too many times to read until S5 proved to me I never need to bother with that again, I take this hundred times over.
(Additional comment written a couple minutes later on same day)
– The fact that Brienne’s story moves to the North and has a payoff to the story set way back in S2 which is finding one of the Stark daughters and pledging service to her. Certainly better for me than her aimless wandering in Riverlands that the show thankfully condensed into S4.
(End of copied comment)
I don’t know if I have any firm purpose in posting this but if rants about this story keep getting posted, I’ll do the same with my appreciation for this story.
Jenny,
“”I’ve actually just started a S1 rewatch, its so jaunty! I’ve only seen the last 3 seasons twice at most, and never back to back. So it will be interesting to do a full run through for the first time before setting it aside”
My rewatch is a filleted version of GoT, i.e., all scenes with Ygritte & Jon; all scenes with the Hound, Beric Dondarrion, Oberyn, Qyburn, Meera and Jorah; S4e7 (the entire episode); pre-lobotomy Tyrion in S1-S4 (when he was still smart and witty) and pre-treason for no reason Varys; all scenes with Osha, Stannis, Barristan and Margaery before they were killed off; and brief though memorable appearances by Karsi, Karl “Fooking Legend of Gin Alley” Tanner, Maester Ebrose (Jim Broadbent); Kinvara (Ania Bukstein), Volantis Red Priestess (Rila Fukushima), Anguy, and Lady Crane.
And last but not least: All Arya, all the time.
That’s probably a good 30 hours of TV I can continue to enjoy in perpetuity.
Euron, High Sparrow, Ramsay, and Littlefinger overstayed their welcome. I didn’t like them the first time around, and I don’t need to see them ever again.
Adrianacandle,
”Brief OT whine:
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”And considering there’s again rant about Sansa’s S5 storyline above, I’ll repost my old comment why I DO enjoy that story:
(Originally written on March 14 2021)
***
… I don’t know if I have any firm purpose in posting this but if rants about this story keep getting posted, I’ll do the same with my appreciation for this story.
No need to do that. Why don’t we just drop it?
Let’s call the whole thing off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJq1NCCvICU
🍅
Ten Bears,
Adrianacandle,
I followed up in the Comments Section under the Con of Thrones postponement article
Ten Bears,
I’ve never done a full 8 season rewatch so I am going to do the full thing. I think i’ve only seen S6 twice, and S7 and S8 once. I’ve watched individual scenes but this is a first full rewatch. I might skip Dorne in S5 though, and some of the Theon torture scenes, I don’t need to see that again. I’m a big fan of S3 and S4 so i’m looking forward to getting there. I didn’t think i’d ever rewatch the show again, S7 and S8 soured me so much but I should at least do it once, and it’s been 2 years
Ten Bears,
I’m also in the midst of a full GOT rewatch (my first since it ended), I am currently up to episode “No One” in season six.
A few thoughts on my rewatch:
– Seasons 4 & 6 remain my overwhelming favourites, I consider these Peak GOT.
– Season 3 is still outstanding and only fraction behind the above.
– Season 5 although derided is by no means bad, it’s dark and has few character win moments but other than Dorne I really did enjoy it on rewatch; Hardholme still blows me away and remains one of the best ever episodes.
– Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken remains the weakest episode for me however the wedding with Sansa/Ramsay is actually well done given the circumstances.
– Season 1 now feels dated and looks distinctively low budget versus everything that comes afterwards.
I used to rewatch the show before every new season. I haven’t done a full rewatch yet and I’m really looking forward to it. For me, it will be interesting to see the story unfold again by knowing where the characters all end up at the end, especially for Dany (I remember reading a comment from some GoT fan on Quora how they were big Dany fan and initially weren’t satisfied with her ending, but when they went to rewatch the show, they almost couldn’t believe how many darker moments of Dany were there for early on and how ruthless she could be in certain situations). First rewatch is always crucial for me because that’s when I form a pretty much permanent opinion on characters and such and several scenes that I may not pay much attention the first time around may become more significant to me, knowing where the story ends. So yes, I’m really looking forward to rewatching it… I think GoT will become another LOST for me, my treasured show which I rewatch every three years in order to experience the journey and all special feelings again in fresh way.
I agree with a lot of your own impressions too.
– S6 and S4 are definitely my favorites (S6 is my favorite, with S4 following closely behind), I think combined S7/S8 (as a 13-episode season) is my third favorite (rewatch will likely confirm that for me).
– S5 actually benefited a lot on rewatches for me. I think first two episodes are a bit weak, and certain scenes from episode 6 (Dorne mostly) but the span of last 4 episodes is absolutely amazing for me.
– As you said yourself, S1 also feels dated to me… it’s obviously more low budget and the colors and scenery are different. Even though it was S4 when the budget got significantly increased, S1 feels dated even compared to S2 and S3 to me and I can admit I’m not as entertained during it on rewatches as I am in following seasons. It even reflects on my ranklist because my highest S1 episode is on no.22 spot out of 73, the lowest highest-rated episode from any season. Thankfully, it’s a first season so I more easily rewatch it knowing it will get only better for me.
– S3 is actually the one I keep changing my opinions, where to rank it because my episode ranking is probably the most polarizing in this season. Regarding individual episodes, there are 5 episodes in my bottom quarter, two more in bottom half, one just missing the top third (top third are all my 10-rated episodes), one just narrowly making it into top third and two more in my top 20 (15 and 12). But overall, I think S3 has a very nice flow overall and there’s very little moments I actually wouldn’t be fond of. So I keep struggling whether I like S3 or S5 more because S3 has better story flow for me, but episodes themselves don’t stand out to me as much, and S5 has more messy story flow, but more individual episodes stand out for me in terms of “special feelings” (S1 and S2 are below both of them for me, that I firmly know)
– As for my least favorite episodes, it’s episodes like “The Prince of Winterfell”, “The Night Lands” and “Lord Snow”… those feel kind of, for the lack of better word, dull for me. I get they’re just build-up episodes but as much as I don’t have problems with them, my entertainment level is kind of low during them.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Considering I’m rambling about my rankings here, I may as well share my GoT episode ranklist. I use a scale from 1 to 10 when it comes to rating episodes, but when it comes to my favorite TV shows, I almost never go below 6 and in case of GoT, I never went below 7 so I have GoT episodes rated from 7 to 10 (and then those additional zones of low/mid/high (insert the number) in order to even more reflect how the episodes relate to each other in terms of my enjoyment). I won’t post the ratings themselves here, just the order from the bottom to the top of my ranklist so you can speculate where the ratings change XD. I may make small movements up or down on rewatch but I think nothing big.
My GoT episode ranklist from my least favorite episode (no.73) to my favorite episode (no.1)
73 ( least favorite ) – The Prince of Winterfell (2.8)
72 – The Night Lands (2.2)
71 – Lord Snow (1.3)
70 – Breaker of Chains (4.3)
69 – The Ghost of Harrenhal (2.5)
68 – Dark Wings, Dark Words (3.2)
67 – The Bear and the Maiden Fair (3.7)
66 – The Kingsroad (1.2)
65 – The House of Black and White (5.2)
64 – Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken (5.6)
63 – Valar Dohaeris (3.1)
62 – Mhysa (3.10)
61 – THe North Remembers (2.1)
60 – Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things (1.4)
59 – Oathkeeper (4.4)
58 – Winter Is Coming (1.1)
57 – The Wars to Come (5.1)
56 – The Climb (3.6)
55 – The Red Woman (6.1)
54 – First of His Name (4.5)
53 – Eastwatch (7.6)
52 – The Pointy End (1.8)
51 – Walk of Punishment (3.3)
50 – Sons of the Harpy (5.4)
49 – Dragonstone (7.1)
48 – Fire and Blood (1.10)
47 – Blood of My Blood (6.6)
46 – The Broken Man (6.7)
45 – What Is Dead May Never Die (2.3)
44 – You Win or You Die (1.7)
43 – A Man Without Honor (2.7)
42 – Kill the Boy (5.5)
41 – Mockingbird (4.7)
40 – Valar Morghulis (2.10)
39 – Oathbreaker (5.3)
38 – Winterfell (7.8/8.1)
37 – High Sparrow (5.3)
36 – Garden of Bones (2.4)
35 – The Wolf and the Lion (1.5)
34 – The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (7.9/8.2)
33 – No One (6.8)
32 – Stormborn (7.2)
31 – The Old Gods and the New (2.6)
30 – The Last of the Starks (7.11/8.4)
29 – A Golden Crown (1.6)
28 – THe Gift (5.7)
27 – Two Swords (4.1)
26 – Second Sons (3.8)
25 – Home (6.2)
24 – Kissed by Fire (3.5)
23 – The Dance of Dragons (5.9)
22 – Baelor (1.9)
21 – The Lion and the Rose (4.2)
20 – The Laws of Gods and Men (4.6)
19 – Queen’s JUstice (7.3)
18 – The Dragon and the Wolf (7.7)
17 – Book of a Stranger (6.4)
16 – The Mountain and the Viper (4.8)
15 – And Now His Watch Is Ended (3.4)
14 – Mother’s Mercy (5.10)
13 – The Iron Throne (7.13/8.6)
12 – The Rains of Castamere (3.9)
11 – The Spoils of War (7.4)
10 – The Children (4.10)
9 – Hardhome (5.8)
8 – Blackwater (2.9)
7 – The Door (6.5)
6 – Beyond the Wall (7.6)
5 – The Bells (7.12/8.5)
4 – Watchers on the Wall (4.9)
(My golden trio)
3 – The Winds of Winter (6.10)
2 – Battle of the Bastards (6.9)
1 – The Long Night (7.10/8.3)
(Side note, I treat S7 & S8 as one 13-episode extended season, hence the numbering in brackets)
Questions? Shout them out
I cannot list them all but my favourites are Winds of Winter (hands down), Hardholme and Ep2 of S8. I feel like the Long Night should be in there but there are a few plot holes which slight degrade it (largely too many key characters surviving impossible situations).
Worst being Unbowed, Unbent Unbroke and Beyond the Wall (that felt so out of wack to me).
Jon Snowed,
I’m noticing that about S1, the sets do look a bit theatrical in places. Clearly very expensive but nowhere near the budget of the later seasons. Dany’s wedding looked like a stage play, I used to work at a Theatre in the round and it reminded me of that. I do like the first season, it’s almost like a whodunnit, a lot of mystery. But yes, dated, the amount of and use of nudity is pretty dated too.
I juggle 2, 3 and 4. Their ranking changes depending on my mood. 6 comes just after those. I love Dany’s plot in S3, it gives me Jaime and Brienne, Arya and the Hound go off together as well. I just like odd couples on the road. S4 has Watchers on the Wall, which is my personal favourite battle episode. It might not be the biggest or the best but I love it. Perfect television. It’s a shame that Neil Marshal never came back. He got it. He got replaced by Sapochnik, which is fair enough. I certainly can’t complain as he did excellent work too. Hardhome slaps. I watched S5 on DVD, so I didn’t have to wait for weekly episodes. I think my experience was greatly improved by that because I do find it a bit too depressing, so many characters at their lowest. The less said about Dorne the better, what a waste of one of my favourite characters (Jaime).
I’ve seen S6 referred to as fan service, but I don’t think that’s fair, S6 finally gives us payoff for seasons worth of plot lines. It does have some pacing and teleportation issues but the highs more than make up for those things. It also had that daft Arya getting stabbed plot. She’s on the run from the Waif and she’s just wandering around town, I remember when it aired and we were all trying to figure out if it was a plan to lure the Waif, maybe it wasn’t really Arya at all. Nope she just fancied a day out shopping. They did pretty much throw credibility out of the window in S6, but the rest was so good we can overlook it.
I found S7 incredibly dull, so I was less forgiving of the more silly aspects. I would personally rank Beyond the Wall as one of the absolute worst episodes they ever did. Silly plan, silly episode. It was beneath GOT and I HATED Littlefingers end. I like S8 far more than S7, S8 wasn’t boring at least. I still hate The Last of the Starks. I cannot for the life of me figure out why they smashed two episodes together like that. There is a clear break in the episode. very strange and badly paced imo. I naturally love Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, my girl finally getting her due. I quite like the finale aside from the Dragon pit scene, which I found silly again. That’s the problem with the later seasons for me. I too often found myself thinking ‘huh? why is this happening?’ or ‘… this is daft isn’t it?’
Tron79,
This is a late observation made in regard to your mentioning that GRRM excels in the novella format. For myself, I could have wished he had kept his backstories of some of the minor houses for possible side projects instead of weaving them into the main series of ASOIAF.
Going off topic I watched something on YouTube yesterday that a historian made last year about Ann Boleyn because of the lockdown. It’s a commentary with still photographs. I liked it so will link it – but then I don’t mind things which are produced in a subtle way. If you prefer biff-baff-boof it might not be for you. https://youtu.be/F0chsiwPxBw
Dame of Mercia,
I do like that Natalie Dormer played Anne Boleyn in the Tudors and Margaery in GOT. GRRM must have taken some inspiration from Anne. Both accused of adultery, even involving their own brothers and a musician, though that was mostly left out of the show
There was a lot of gratuitous violence towards men too in GoT (i.e. Theon). The fact that gratuitous violence towards men is apparently acceptable, but gratuitous violence towards women requires a statement of condemnation from the crew felt overtly political and just another example of using women as a political football.
If HOTD wants to eliminate all gratuitous violence then fine, but eliminating it with only one gender feels a bit patronizing for political points.
Also, the fact that they felt the need to make a statement about the gratuitous violence towards women for HOTD makes me concerned that this show is going to let the perpetually offended twitter mob dictate the show’s content, which is always a recipe for disaster.
Mr Derp,
Thanks for the reply, I addressed a lot of this in later posts. I hated those Theon scenes, but that is pretty much the only similar example. Violence in battle is a bit different, I had no problem with the Hound fighting Brienne for example. I’m mostly talking about sexual/domestic violence, and Theon is included in that. It is unfortunately a political issue, it’s all in the statistics, and I think they are just acknowledging that. In HotD they are going to be more careful about the way violence against women is depicted. Unfortunately an awful lot of people live with this, not many people are out there getting into sword fights and getting their hands chopped off. I fully acknowledge that men are victims of sexual and domestic violence and if those things were depicted in the show I would have the same opinion (as I do with Theon). It’s the most real world aspect of a grand fantasy show. I don’t know if I am expressing myself well, but that’s how I feel about it. I don’t think it necessarily had to be said in an interview/statement, but it’s fair to say that they might have learnt from past experience and it will not be removed altogether. They were (rightly) getting shit for years over it, so maybe they felt the need to address it now and get it over with.
Adrianacandle,
I don’t recall any effort to keep Ramsay’s actions hidden.
Our introduction to Ramsay comes via Roose telling Robb about how “my bastard” has some interesting methods. This implies that news of Ramsay’s violent cruelty hadn’t reached Winterfell. Theon grew up in Winterfell, and didn’t even know who Ramsay was. As far as effort to hide Ramsay, Roose did not legitimatize Ramsay until a few years later.
Yet this would be something LF would work hard to try and find out, especially if it deals with a piece of missing information. He tells Cersei, “Knowledge is power,” and this is Sansa. I don’t think LF would just leave things like this up to chance, especially when House Bolton has a notorious enough reputation as it is with their flaying activities.
In Dark Age Europe, torture was considered a reliable and acceptable way of obtaining information– Roose even references this at one point, saying the flayed man has no secrets. I believe Baelish did try to obtain all of the information he could on the characters with whom he dealt, but from a Southerner’s perspective, the Dreadfort is in a remote area of the faraway North. There may simply have been nothing he could find.
Jenny,
…I totally respect your opinion and people will have varying tolerance for this sort of thing.
Thank you, and likewise. It’s art; either it works for you, or it doesn’t. To be fair to the show, even before the first opening credits roll, we’ve seen an array of butchered body parts, and then two violent deaths, all in a creepily haunted forest. By the time the end credits begin, a child is thrown from a tower. The producers were very clear, right from the start, about what kind of show they were running.
I hated those Theon scenes, specifically the one with the two girls when he was castrated (not sure if that’s the right word but it will do).
To ‘break’ Theon into Reek, there had to be multiple torture scenes. Ramsay’s mutilation of Theon, and Ramsay’s taunting of the Greyjoys about it, were important story points. Not pleasant to watch, but then, I never found the Army of the Dead to be particularly photogenic, either. 😉
I don’t entirely disagree, but I’m not sure the visual of zombies is an apt comparison to sexual violence.
I think you’re expressing yourself very well and I agree with much of what you said.
It wouldn’t have made my bullshit meter go off if they said something like gratuitous sexual violence in any form against any gender will not be tolerated. Instead, they just made it all about one gender. We all know that women in particular are being used as political footballs more than ever nowadays.
Sexual violence certainly happened to women more frequently on the show than men (this is supposed to be loosely based on the Middle Ages when women were treated like broodmares), but out of all the gratuitous sexual violence that took place in GoT, IMO, Theon’s was by far the worst and most enduring yet that was never addressed in that statement (at least as far as I recall).
It just doesn’t sound like a legitimate gesture to me. It feels more like more political pandering and platitudes to get viewers and claim the moral high ground without actually having to do anything of substance to back it up. This is fiction after all. All one has to do is change the script. It’s not like reality where change takes actual effort, blood, sweat, and tears.
Mr Derp,
Thank you, sometimes I feel like I’m talking myself round in circles lol. I see your point, she could have made a more generalised statement, saying that they would be more considerate in future. I’m not sure that it needed to be said, we’d naturally notice it in the show, now we’ll be expecting it and judging it. I suppose we can only wait until the show airs. I can see why an actress would take a part based on that insider knowledge though.
I must say, the responses I got here are far more measured than some others I saw, some people legit sounded like they were going to miss out and it was a bit… odd. People here seem to think that it fits finally with the whole show and that’s a fair assessment too.
Jenny,
That’s fair and I also think it’s ok for them to come out and declare no more gratuitous violence. They want to assuage any viewer’s concerns. Nothing wrong with that from a marketing perspective.
It’s just that my bullshit meter tends to go off when they make it all about gender. We’ll see how it goes 🙂
I disagree a little bit on this one. This is all pretend…make believe. Actors are paid to pretend. They’re not going to actually get assaulted or sexually abused on set. If they prefer to not participate in make-believe stories where the character they play gets abused then I think that’s perfectly fine, but none of it’s real, so I think any concern on an actor’s part is a bunch of b.s.
I think it would be really weird for actors to start demanding their roles cater to their real life personal beliefs. That would be one step closer to the death of art.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I recall characters being aware of Ramsay’s sadism, as well as the sadism of House Bolton, and they likely would be as it occurred more and more. For example, Lyanna Mormont says in 6×10, “And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton, still, you refused the call.” In 6×07, Glover says, “I’ve heard enough. We’ve only just taken back this castle from the Ironborn. The Boltons helped us do it. Now you want me to fight against them? I could be skinned for even talking to you.” In 6×05, the non-Northern Davos says, “They’re more or less the same in any corner of the world and even the bravest of them don’t want to see their wives and children skinned for a lost cause.”
None of this seems to be new or shocking information and wouldn’t be with House Bolton’s reputation. The more Ramsay has been unleashed, the more people would be aware of his activities and Ramsay had already been on the scene for some time by the time LF arranges Sansa to marry Ramsay and Sansa agrees.
In the books, Ramsay has a notorious and well-known reputation.
Well, House Bolton’s reputation is well known but regardless, I think it’d be out of character for Baelish to take this chance with no information on Ramsay or the family, especially when it comes to Sansa. That would mean there’s nothing LF could anticipate, plan for, etc. and while he seeks to cause chaos so he has everyone fighting as he slips in to seize control, he uses his knowledge as power to create that chaos. Going into a situation blind would create more than a few hazards and loss of control.
Mr Derp,
That’s true, and the almighty $$$ would sway most people. How many people would *really* say no to Thrones now? She’s a fan of the show and knows all about it, perhaps it would be more accurate to call it an added incentive. I mean, it’s always nice when you approve of what you are making, but it doesn’t always happen. Good actors appear in some right shite. It actually reminds me of a recent Emilia interview, she talked about having to get on the same page as the writers and the character because she couldn’t turn up to work pissed off and phone it in. She was more connected to her character though, I know she found it hard but even she got on with the job
Mr Derp,
Even in terms of pure physical violence, zombie’s and the like rate quite low. If I were to compare some of the fantasy violence in Thrones to something like Saving Private Ryan’s intro, I know which one i’d be distressed by. It’s different for everyone of course, but when things can be related directly back to real life, it’s far more intense. Any type of abuse or torture is more upsetting to me than sword’s swinging. People on fire is worse for me than the WW, imagine melting in metal…
Jenny,
Yea, I suppose I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, actors should certainly be clear about their limits and act accordingly. We all should have that right.
On the other hand, sometimes it feels like the younger actors associated with big projects today expect all of the notoriety, fame, career boost, and $$$ that comes with the job, but none of the negativity or more difficult parts of the job. It comes off as a bit entitled and unrealistic to me…like having your cake and eating it too.
For example, if you’re a woman actor and agree to take a role set in a quasi-historic Dark Ages then you should probably expect that the character is going to go through some misogynistic stuff. You can’t act in a misogynistic world and then complain about misogyny and expect to be taken seriously, IMO.
Of course, If the setting of HOTD is 2021 then that’s a different story, but we all know it’s not. It’s even earlier in history than GoT!
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”Not pleasant to watch, but then, I never found the Army of the Dead to be particularly photogenic, either.”
Now that you brought that up…
With the exception of Sandor’s Captured Wight (who was one of my nominees for S7 Best Guest Actor), I had been thinking – without whinging -that there was a missed opportunity to make the Wights* more photogenic:
For emotional impact alone, during S8e3 I had expected to see some familiar faces in wightened form. (That’s one of the fringe benefits of having people turn into zombies in your show or movie.)
Call it fan service. I was hoping to see, e.g. Wight versions of:
• Lord Glover, who had “refused the call” to fight the Boltons, and then chickened out yet again, despite his apology and renewed pledge to stand behind House Stark in the “more fights to come.” [S6e10]
I really wanted to see that “bloody weather vane” get his just desserts for talking a big game, yet betraying his oaths when it counted. (I like the actor too – Tim McInnerny.)
• Littlefinger. Yeah, I know, he had his neck slashed by Arya in S7e7. (“It’s only a flesh wound.”)
– Still, I wanted to see his reanimated corpse show up among the wight hordes invading WF, if only to see Arya kill him again either by lopping his head off with her custom-designed double tipped dragonglass spear during her slice-and-dice fight scene; or by shooting a flaming arrow into him and watching him flail about as he went up in flames.
– Or, so Sansa could do something fun with the dragonglass dagger Arya gave her to use before the battle, by sticking LF with the pointy end.
– Or, have glowed up, handsome Robyn Arryn make a cameo appearance and show off the results of his archery practice by firing a DG-tipped arrow into Wight LF’s face. (Sorry about the graphic imagery. Smarmy “Uncle Petyr” made Robyn an orphan, having murdered both of his parents.
• Karsi. Because I loved Birgitte Hjort Sorensen in her guest starring role in “Hardhome” and wanted to see her again. A brief “reunion” with King Crow Jon Snow would have been fun; sadder still, a five second shot of Karsi’s two young daughters seeing their (now-undead) mom again. 🧟♀️ Discarded Tinfoil Alert:
• [Wight to be named later]. There was someone else I thought might be wightened. I forgot who I had in mind. 🤥
* P.S. I admit that mutilated Ned Umber as a wall decoration in a preceding episode was spooky as f*ck, and arguably “photogenic.”
Dead Lyanna Mormont’s blue eyes snapping open for a second at the end of “The Long Night” didn’t count.
Finally – without whining – I was not thrilled with the “surprise” of the reanimated remains of ancient Starks in the WF Crypts busting out of their tombs. They’d have turned to dust and maybe a few bone fragments centuries ago. and I did not understand how they could break through their stone tombs as if they were made out of cheap styrofoam.
I just figured a few scenes of wights with familiar faces might have been more impactful.
Now, having said that, the showrunners could have really come up with a Holy Sh*t! moment in the WF Crypts by framing a shot of Lyanna Stark’s statue, and then having Aisling Franciosi, as Wight Lyanna Stark, burst out of her tomb.
I suppose Headless Robb or Headless Ned weren’t an option. I forget the Rules of Reanimation…
Adrianacandle,
For example, Lyanna Mormont says in 6×10, “And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton, still, you refused the call.” In 6×07, Glover says, “I’ve heard enough. We’ve only just taken back this castle from the Ironborn. The Boltons helped us do it. Now you want me to fight against them? I could be skinned for even talking to you.” In 6×05, the non-Northern Davos says, “They’re more or less the same in any corner of the world and even the bravest of them don’t want to see their wives and children skinned for a lost cause.”
Those are all examples of House Bolton‘s cruelty when ruling. Their sigil is the Flayed Man. It’s not exactly a secret they employ such methods in governing. But we’re not talking about that aspect of their behavior.
Baelish was delivering Sansa to House Bolton, so Roose could wed Ramsay to her, and produce legitimate Bolton heirs to Winterfell and the North. Keeping Sansa healthy enough to bear children would therefore be a key part of that plan, and Baelish had no reason to believe Ramsay would behave in the manner most likely to cause Sansa problems in child-bearing. (In the show, did we ever see Ramsay mistreat one of his lovers? I can’t recall it, even though he seemed to enjoy rough, yet consensual, sex with at least one.) Baelish was therefore, in his mind, delivering Sansa to the protection of Roose Bolton — not a man to trifle with, and that’s putting it mildly — and returning her to her home. A win all around, or so Baelish thought.
Furthermore, if everything didn’t go perfectly for Sansa Stark in Winterfell, he knew she’d survived the court intrigue in King’s Landing well enough, and he’d even used her in his successful plot to poison the King. He might have held that idea as a back-up plan; it would be completely in character for him.
I’m not saying this was his plan; I’m just noting speculation along those lines is justified by what we already knew.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I think that aspect of their behavior would certainly count because it goes beyond typical methods of governing and into cruel and unusual. Skinning people alive isn’t treated as typical in Westeros but as blatant cruelty.
If LF did not have sufficient information about Ramsay, as you previously speculated, delivering Sansa to a family he did not research enough to know about Ramsay Bolton’s cruelty (he hunted women for example — and out in the open) would be out of character. It’s already known the Boltons typically employ torture and cruel means, there’s no reason for LF to eliminate the possibility that Sansa wouldn’t be tormented and very likely raped herself. What if Ramsay/Roose/or a Bolton loyalist sniffed out why Sansa was there? What if Sansa didn’t conceive? What if the Boltons viewed her as a failure in some way? What if the Boltons tortured for fun, as we know Ramsay did? LF is a character who is supposed to thoroughly do his homework before proceeding with a plan and for him to go on the assumption that the Boltons only torture other people, Sansa will be fine as long as she can bear children (and Sansa’s childbearing abilities would hardly prevent rape and other types of torture, like whipping one’s back) — would be pretty lacking. LF had ways of gathering information before, he could glean information from somebody who worked in the castle or plant somebody there himself before planting Sansa there.
Even GRRM notes that Littlefinger would never sell Sansa to the Boltons.
A court in which Sansa was regularly beaten and nearly raped several times. And that was with LF hanging around. Thankfully, for Sansa, she had Tyrion and the Hound to save her several times. That was not the work of LF though. Now he’s arranging a marriage with a family who Littlefinger knew betrayed her own, is known for their cruelty, and LF is leaving her alone without any help.
Sansa didn’t know she was used in a plot to poison Joffrey. Sansa didn’t come up with that. Sansa got away by the skin of her teeth because she was an unaware pawn who was smuggled away by LF while she became a target of Cersei. But LF left Sansa alone in a Bolton-run Winterfell. He wasn’t there hanging around.
Adrianacandle,
I think that aspect of their behavior would certainly count because it goes beyond typical methods of governing and into cruel and unusual. Skinning people alive isn’t treated as typical in Westeros but as blatant cruelty.
Ned chopped Wil’s head off, with his male children present, and with Jon Snow admonishing Bran not to look away, lest “their” father think less of Bran for being squeamish. Jon was making the point that ruling with justice can be hard to watch on Westeros. (Ned was legally allowed to execute Wil, but even in the very first episode, the audience understood this was a very foolish thing for Ned to do.)
And it can’t be emphasized enough that Baelish was delivering Sansa into the protection of Roose Bolton, and both Baelish and we knew that Roose intended Sansa to produce Bolton heirs to Winterfell. Baelish certainly knew that anyone who interfered with any of Roose’s plans in the slightest faced a very swift and painful punishment for so doing. We’d seen Ramsay torture Theon and kill Tansy, but we’d never seen him beat a lover, and certainly not when such a beating would imperil Roose’s plans. Baelish simply had no reason to believe Ramsay — or anyone else at Winterfell — would mistreat Sansa.
Let’s also recall that when Ramsay did rape Sansa, it shocked the audience to the point where there was a paroxysm of public outrage over it. Even the audience to the infamously violent Game of Thrones was surprised that Ramsay would behave in such a way, and we knew far more about Ramsay’s behavior than Baelish ever could have.
So long as Sansa was alive, of child-bearing age, and well enough to do so, Roose would protect her — even if she did try to poison him or Ramsay. Baelish knew this.
(And Ramsay did not kill Tansy ‘in the open,’ but rather under cover of the forest, with no one else but Myranda as witness. Hunting ‘accidents’ were a common way of hiding murder in actual Dark Age Europe, and as far as we know, no one cared about Tansy anyway.)
A court in which Sansa was regularly beaten and nearly raped several times.
So, is such behavior unusual on Westeros? You’re making it sound pretty common.
Also, whether Baelish as “hanging around” The Red Keep or Winterfell, or not, didn’t mean he could prevent anyone there from harming Sansa. As we know, in the books, he takes her to The Vale, where he can protect her, and he keeps her safe there. But D&D decided to do something else with the character and actress, and since GRRM hadn’t given them further story about her, they were free to do that.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Beheading per the law is pretty different from flaying somebody alive. One is an execution, the other is prolonged torture and cruelty. One is over in 20 seconds or less, the other can be drawn out for days.
As said in my previous post, the Boltons not only executed, they tortured. Sansa can still be tortured and raped herself while still being able to bear children for the reasons I stated above. Baelish, having worked in a brothel, would be awae of this — and why didn’t he take measures to ensure Sansa would not be harmed by a family who flays people alive? Why leave her alone without help in a situation that he didn’t thoroughly check out? And leave her alone with the family who betrayed her family in a brutal slaughter, marrying her to a legitimized bastard, against whom Westeros are already significantly prejudiced?
I’m talking about in-universe, where the Boltons are notorious and feared for their methods. They take it to the next level, far beyond typical methods. Ramsay took it to the next level — what he did to Theon, hunting women, skinning them alive, etc. is not usual behavior. Also, Baelish is known for gathering information. He could have easily taken somebody in his employ and planted one of his own in the Bolton-run WF. I mean, the Boltons did that with Locke and planted him in the NW to find Bran, Rickon, and take Jon out.
In a forest is out in the open where anyone can come across this happening and run away. Ramsay was hardly being quiet. This didn’t look like a hunting accident, this looked like a body of a girl that was mauled to death by dogs — and even if nobody cared about this girl, this would inform opinion about Ramsay’s character. And I’m sure castle inhabitants would know about Ramsay’s extracurriculars. Why not have LF check this out about Ramsay?
No, I was saying that Sansa didn’t simply survive. She endured significant abuse at the hands of a cruel family and a cruel king — the Lannisters. She also survived the Boltons — with no help from Littlefinger. Were it not for Theon and Brienne, Sansa may very well have died. LF took Sansa from one abusive situation and put her into another, even more abusive situation — which I maintain would be out of character for him. How could he expect Sansa to “avenge them” in such a situation without help?
Per GRRM:
__________
LF was the only reason Sansa managed to get out of King’s Landing at all. He’s the one who plotted to poison Joffrey, not Sansa. He smuggled Sansa out of KL, she didn’t do that herself. She couldn’t protect herself from being beaten and tormented — others had to do that for her. My issue is I have no idea why a) LF didn’t vet the Boltons and b) LF left Sansa alone with a family notorious for their cruel and unusual methods. Flaying people alive is viewed as monstrous in-universe, not the typical form of governing or justice.
D&D are free to do whatever they wish. That doesn’t mean their story decisions aren’t subject to criticism. As for GRRM not giving them further story, we don’t know that. From the way D&D talk, seems like GRRM did give them this story but they didn’t GRRM’s plans for Sansa were enough for Sansa or Sophie Turner:
Adrianacandle,
…Sansa got away by the skin of her teeth because she was an unaware pawn who was smuggled away by LF while she became a target of Cersei. But LF left Sansa alone in a Bolton-run Winterfell. He wasn’t there hanging around.”
Yeah, and didn’t LF then go to KL and tell Cersei that Sansa (on her own) had escaped to WF? As if there weren’t scores of witnesses who could verify that it was LF himself who escorted Sansa to WF and rode into WF alongside her, with the residents of WF assembled to greet them.
Nope. No matter how you look at it, LF’s “plan(s)” made no f*cking sense.
Oh, and in addition to the explicit show! canon examples you cited about Ramsey’s behavior being public knowledge:
– Didn’t Roose specifically scold Ramsey for the public backlash resulting from Ramsey flaying (and killing) people out in the open? I thought there was such a conversation… maybe about news that Ramsay had tortured and killed the elder Lord Cerwyn and his wife for not paying taxes…?
– Though I could be confused, weren’t there flayed bodies strung up in full view when LF & Sansa rode into WF? Or was that later?
– Ramsay’s misbehavior, lack of discretion, and alienation of Northerners were the source of tensions between Roose and Ramsay. His lunacy was no secret.
(I don’t even want to get into the nonsensical aspect of LF’s “plan” banking on a Stannis victory so that Sansa would become Wardeness of the North: How in the world Sansa as Mrs. Bolton would facilitate Stannis elevating her to Wardeness, rather than Sansa simply waiting safely on the sidelines unless and until Stannis prevailed, never made any sense to me.
Adrianacandle,
Benioff: ”There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”
Why did they “love” it so much?
Cogman: ”While this is a very bold departure, [we liked] the power of bringing a Stark back to Winterfell and having her reunite with Theon under these circumstances.”
Why did they “like” having Sansa reunite with Theon “under these circumstances”?
😡🤬
Ten Bears,
Yeah, that sounds familiar but I’d have to rewatch the scenes to fact check.
And yeah, nice point about Stannis and Lyanna. In the books, Stannis doesn’t want WF to go to Sansa as it is because of her marriage to Tyrion.
A good question for D&D. I think they liked the highly dramatic circumstances of it. Cogman goes on to say:
Didn’t GRRM himself say that Littlefinger would never give up Sansa like that? Have I imagined that? Anyway I personally never bought it. Why would Littlefinger give up his ‘prize’? Never in a million years
As long as these rants will keep emerging, I guess I’ll keep posting my appreciation comments for those story parts. The tactics that I know from the days I was an admin in LOST group, especially when it came to 5 protagonists or so that had some sort of “hatedom” inside the fandom… if rants calm down, I guess I won’t need to post these either.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Not sure if you’ve ever mentioned this or not, but were you an admin for a LOST group?
Mr Derp,
That’s the one things that worries me is I don’t want Twitter outrage to dictate the show.
Jenny,
Yes. GRRM said that. I think Adrianacandle posted that quote from GRRM, upthread.
Adrianacandle,
A good question for D&D. I think they liked the highly dramatic circumstances of it. Cogman goes on to say:
Cogman pointed out: “You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.”
No. The answer is: You already have “an incredibly talented actor” who the viewers love and adore (at least I do):
Charlotte Hope (Myranda).
As long as the show was diverging from the source material and making up its own storylines, they should have had Ramsay marry Myranda.
They made a cute, twisted couple, didn’t they?
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/images.linnlive.com/ddc3d468a8034d375670aa6508207f76/ad40246d-ee5e-4ff6-b731-94cc96ee56d0.jpg
Then, at least for a time, Myranda could have been Lady of Winterfell and QitN:
https://www.mordeo.org/files/uploads/2020/09/Charlotte-Hope-In-The-Spanish-Princess-4K-Ultra-HD-Mobile-Wallpaper-scaled.jpg
Anything would have been better than shoehorning Sansa into the Ramsay-Jeyne Poole storyline.
Ten Bears,
I believe the book storyline had the Lannisters forcing Jeyne to impersonate Arya so the Boltons can better solidify their hold on Winterfell. Conceivably, though, the Boltons could arrange for Myranda to pose as Arya since they have the same colouring and have somewhat of a resemblance to one another. I’d say the major differences would be less torture, rape, and Theon likely remains Reek. In the books, helping Jeyne allows Theon to slowly start to break out of his Reek mode.
Ten Bears,
Thanks, I thought i’d seen that. I never liked the Sansa/Littlefinger changes but I totally understand why they did it. GRRM finally commenting on it was basically case closed for me in terms of trying to explain it
Adrianacandle,
As said in my previous post, the Boltons not only executed, they tortured.
I agree completely. The difference is the Boltons were using torture as a method of public governance, not as private bedroom policy. What Ned did to Wil, with children present (an aggravating circumstance that was cited in the sentencing of Derek Chauvin for the murder of George Floyd, this very year!) was violent, shocking, and worse than pointless — but no one in the audience thus expected Ned to smack Cat around their bedchamber.
Assume Baelish had inflitrated Winterfell with very good spies, who saw everything Ramsay did, and reported it faithfully. What information would Baelish have received?
“He went hunting with two of his bedchamber wenches. At sunset, he and one of them returned, the other one didn’t. He said she ran the wrong way and fell down an embankment, lay there insensible and they couldn’t wake her. With night upon us, we waited until the next day to search for her. She was dead; some beast had got her.”
“The kennel-masters daughter, aye, she atimes cums out o’ his chambers wit’ bruises, ’tis trew; but always wit’ a big smile.”
Again, nobody had any real reason to believe Ramsay would be so foolish as to endanger Sansa’s chances of producing Bolton heirs to Winterfell and the North. Putting Sansa in the North, in her childhood fortress home, under the protection of Roose Bolton, seemed like a pretty safe bet for Baelish. He turned out to be wrong.
You know who else turned out to be wrong about what Ramsay could do? Roose, who knew far more about Ramsay than Baelish ever could.
Ned executed Wil out of duty. If a Night’s Watchmen abandons their post, it’s a death sentence. Pretty simple and understandable. It’s similar to Jon killing Janos. You could debate whether that policy should’ve been enforced in this particular instance or not, but this execution was not “worse than pointless”.
I really don’t know how one can compare Ned executing Wil to flaying people alive for personal amusement.
George Floyd was in 2020. GoT does not take place in our modern world, so not sure bringing up George Floyd is useful here.
It’s also a bit disingenuous to hand over Sansa to a family who loves to torture people and NOT expect something bad to happen. Just my opinion of course.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
The Boltons’ methods were not typical of this era. Ned was preparing his sons for having to execute men themselves per the established law by the sword, one of the typical forms of execution. An 8-year old child in modern times is not treated as an 8-year old child in medieval times, where one comes of age much earlier and may have to run a keep before they even are of legal age. This is not the same thing as flaying people alive. Governance or not, this method was considered sadistic in-universe.
If they were very good spies, they’d have Ramsay followed and see what he did. They’d also be able to glean information about his other activities as well, in addition to overhearing talk of them in Winterfell. It’s not like this stuff happened in secret. Other castle inhabitants were aware.
Sansa can still be tortured and raped without endangering her chances of having children — and it’s not like abuse doesn’t happen to women who are expected to have heirs in Westeros. Her back can be cut and whipped, as can her feet, Ramsay can have sex with her against her will, her limbs can be bruised and broken, her eyes taken out, her tongue removed, parts of her body can be removed or skinned.
Roose was well aware of Ramsay’s sadistic ways and of what harm he can do to Sansa. He was not in the dark about that. He didn’t expect he’d kill him but he chastised Ramsay for his “extracurriculars” and Ramsay wouldn’t listen. LF, apparently, was unaware as (presumably) he failed to do his homework here.
The point is, LF didn’t just put Sansa in a situation where her life was in danger, he put her in a situation without any help, tools, and where she was harmed with a family that helped slaughter her own and who are well known for their cruel methods. The Boltons’ reputation is notorious in the North. That LF didn’t do his homework on them is glaring OOC feature in this storyline.
I can say that to me personally, it would make more sense if Littlefinger knew about Ramsay’s brutality but didn’t really care. I don’t know how GRRM plans to portray him as character but as far as TV Littlefinger goes, I can easily see that. Even Sansa herself makes strong implications during confrontation of his that not knowing about Ramsay is stupid for Littlefinger’s standards. I wouldn’t be surprised if Littlefinger putting Sansa in Winterfell was just another one of his sick games to instigate chaos… after all, his first act was to travel to Cersei, protect his back there as well and then mobilize the Vale forces in order to defeat either Roose and Stannis and claim the North (and then Sansa escaping and going to Jon was an error in Littlefinger’s plan).
While this doesn’t relate to Littlefinger, TV Ramsay is different though I think… in the books, his brutality is already known over the North waaay before Boltons take over Winterfell and he doesn’t do a thing to hide it. He’s a terrible figher, he’s getting overweight, he has no manners when it comes to interactions and I don’t think he’s particularly intelligent. TV Ramsay on other hand, I think his sadistic side wasn’t public knowledge and it only started coming out after Boltons took over Winterfell and he got more power in submitting other families. He’s also a great actor, capable of many psychological manipulations, quite skilled fighter and also quite intelligent. Even Roose is described as “creepy” from his first novel appearance onwards and there are statements from POV characters over and over how he makes them uncomfortable… but the only thing about TV Roose that was “off” regarding the rest of the NOrthmen was in S2 when he wished to be more brutal with interrogations of Lannister soldiers but otherwise, he “seemed” loyal to Robb for majority of the time. So I think Boltons as whole are less infamous in TV continuity, at least in present time. But I was speaking from my head canon only, I would still say Littlefinger knew about Ramsay but didn’t really care that much what happens to Sansa.
There’s interesting thing about what GRRM said about TV Littlefinger in GoT’s very early seasons, pointing him out as the biggest difference from novel counterpart. He said something in a way that TV Littlefinger is established differently from get-go… a very shady person that even characters know as the man you can’t trust. “Nobody trusts Littlefinger” – there’s even that line in TV show. While his novel counterpart is a man that appears very trustworthy to majority of the people and there’s no such shady reputation to him. So, makes me wonder how different GRRM’s Littlefinger is as a character.
Show Littlefinger definitely didn’t know about Ramsey. Aidan Gillen (who plays LF) has also said it repeatedly.
“Meanwhile, for fans who wondered all season if Littlefinger understood who it was he was marrying Sansa off too, Gillen is pretty unequivocal. Those who think that Littlefinger knew exactly what he was doing are wrong. For the first time, Littlefinger misjudged, and that’s partly because he hadn’t done his homework.”
and here too:
EW: So what excites you most about season 6?
AG: “For me, this time out, there’s a level of atonement in relation to Sansa and my misjudgment of Ramsay Bolton. A lot of what I’m up to is atonement and really trying to align myself with the right people. I left Sansa married to a psychopath. It’s probably the one time we’ve seen Littlefinger slip up. He really didn’t know about him. He should have.”
My issue is that what on earth did he expect from a house known for treachery and torture?
I think show Littlefinger simply underestimated the Boltons and put very little effort into looking into things before marrying Sansa off to them. WHy I don’t know.
Littlefinger in the books is an incredibly devious man looking to climb the ladder for power. He’s underestimated because of his low birth relative to other lords. He still betrays Ned, he still organizes Joffrey’s death and Sansa’s escape, he’s got Sansa slowly poisoning her own cousin to death, and is behind several plots.
The Boltons were already publicly displaying flayed bodies and their betrayal of House Stark and part in the Red Wedding was common knowledge. As for Ramsay, Ten Bears was correct that Ramsay’s methods, lack of discretion, and inducing terror in the Northerners were a source of tension between himself and Roose. In season 4, he’s angry over what Ramsay did to Theon because it robbed them of a valuable hostage and later chastises Ramsay for his methods with the Northerners. From 5×03:
It seems like Ramsay’s methods were a building issue and not so secret. Per statements from Lyanna, Glover, and Davos, these actions were well-known.
Yes! Precisely! I like that scenario (Myranda taking over Jeyne’s fArya role.)
Myranda could start out as the devilishly wicked co-conspirator we saw on the show, and then turn away from the Dark Side with Theon’s intervention; or Theon could rescue her when
Ramsay started threatening and brutalizing her.
(On the show, in no uncertain terms, Ramsay threatened to kill her if she “bored” him. I wouldn’t find a woman wholly unsympathetic if she were under constant pressure by an abuser to “ratchet up the crazy.”)
I would have preferred watching Myranda jumping off the WF battlements with Theon into a snowbank, rather than seeing her tossed off the walkway and splattered onto the hard ground.
Besides, many other characters, e.g., Jamie, Sandor, Hot Pie, and to some extent Tormund, had started off “bad” and evolved, or showed they had redeeming qualities too. Or Theon, who had committed unforgivable sins, and was still able to somehow come back and become “a good man.”
A female character with that kind of trajectory would have been interesting.
Adrianacandle,
If they were very good spies, they’d have Ramsay followed and see what he did. They’d also be able to glean information about his other activities as well, in addition to overhearing talk of them in Winterfell. It’s not like this stuff happened in secret. Other castle inhabitants were aware.
OK, but you haven’t yet told us what information they would have conveyed back to Baelish. What did we see on-screen of Ramsay’s behavior which should have warned Baelish? As I mentioned, the great public outcry after the broadcast of Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken suggests Ramsay’s rape of Sansa shocked many viewers, and we viewers had far more information about Ramsay than Baelish could have.
I’m honestly curious — what did we see on-screen of Ramsay’s behavior, prior to the final scene of Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken, which should have told us Ramsay might rape Sansa?
I would say Osha sort of fits the bill.
Maybe Melisandre too.
Not sure Jamie qualifies as a good man by the end, but that’s another debate.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Hunting women down with dogs, how he tortures for pleasure: those who displease him, those who he decides to torture for his own amusement, enemies, and Northerners alike such as Lord Cerwyn. What he did to a valuable hostage (Theon) who was needed as leverage against the Greyjoys and their attacks. These methods all go above and beyond and into cruel and unusual. They don’t spell out great things happening to Sansa. This should have, at the very least, given Littlefinger pause over what would happen to Sansa.
I didn’t limit anything to rape — although it doesn’t look good on that front either. I also spoke of abuse and torture, which Ramsay’s actions clearly indicate.
I quite like your scenario as well — as we got to know those above characters better, we learned their motivations, what makes him tick, and they were more fleshed out into multifaceted characters. I think Myranda could have fit this role as well and perhaps, as Mr Derp suggested, Osha (although, she’s already become a sympathetic character by way of helping Bran and Rickon).
Ramsey’s violent sex with Myranda in season 4 would be a good place to start.
You’re really going to say that you had no idea Ramsey was capable of rape prior to Unbowed, Unbent, and Unbroken?
Being shocked vs. not seeing something coming aren’t necessarily the same thing.
Besides, isn’t everything on twitter shocking and requires a public outcry?
Mr Derp,
I know that behind-the-scenes explaination was that Littlefinger didn’t know about Ramsay, that’s why I specified “if I was speaking from my head canon only”… because if I didn’t have access to any behind-the-scenes stuff and watched the story unfold on screen only, I would have no second thoughts that Littlefinger knew about Ramsay but just didn’t care. My girlfriend, who watched it last year and never read the novels or saw behind-the-scenes stuff very much thought so.
Adrianacandle,
Sorry but I disagree about Ramsay already being widely known around the North regarding his notorious methods prior to Boltons’ betrayal in TV continuity. When Roose mentioned to Robb in S2 that he’ll send Ramsay to Winterfell, there was not one concern voiced which makes me think Ramsay’s sadism and cruelty wasn’t known to majority of the people. Neither in S3 where we actually saw Ramsay being an excellent actor in terms of manipulating Theon. The first time we see any of the Boltons display flayed men was in S4, and that came from Ramsay. Then again in S5 with the Cerwyns and then, Roose mentioned his concerns regarding the brutality, which makes me think that Boltons actually weren’t like that for majortiy of Roose’s rule prior to the betrayal or that if they were, it was kept way more hidden. I believe that at least prior to Boltons’ betrayal, Ramsay’s public figure was pretty much the way he presented himself to Sansa in 5.3, while he was actually very sadistic in secret. We did see how convincing he was to Theon in S3. So no, I don’t think TV Ramsay was nowhere as infamous in the North prior to the Red Wedding than book Ramsay was and as I pointed above, his demeanor is quite different in TV continuity.
Adrianacandle,
Hunting women down with dogs,
One woman, Tansy, who he no longer wanted. Disposing of one unwanted nobody is a looooooooong way from pointlessly brutalizing the Stark in Winterfell, especially when his Lord father was explicitly counting on Sansa to legitimize House Bolton’s rule of the North.
…how he tortures for pleasure…
Taking pleasure in doing something, and doing something just for the pleasure of doing it, are two different things. I would argue Ramsay always did the former.
…Northerners alike such as Lord Cerwyn.
As you yourself quoted, Lord Cerwyn openly defied the ruling House of the North. Some punishment was necessary. The argument between Roose and Ramsay you quoted was about exactly what that punishment should have been, not that punishment was needed. Roose was warning Ramsay that over-reliance on terror as a governing tactic was going to hurt them.
What he did to a valuable hostage (Theon) who was needed as leverage against the Greyjoys and their attacks.
Um, Ramsay used Theon/Reek to remove the Ironborn from Moat Cailin without a fight. That’s quite a triumph. As for the rest of the Ironborn in the North, Ramsay repaid them handsomely in their own coin. They pride themselves on taking what they want by force; he expelled them by greater force where he could, and by trickery where he couldn’t. He handled the situation very well. (And, as we saw, Balon actually didn’t regard Theon as a valuable hostage anyway.)
They don’t spell out great things happening to Sansa.
Again, “not great things” does not necessarily equal pointless brutality and rape.
This should have, at the very least, given Littlefinger pause over what would happen to Sansa.
Baelish was definitely taking a gamble, which he lost. That doesn’t mean he gambled foolishly, just that he lost.
Mr Derp,
You’re really going to say that you had no idea Ramsey was capable of rape prior to Unbowed, Unbent, and Unbroken?
Of course he was capable of it, as many characters in the show were. The question here is, did the audience expect it? As the public outrage showed, the answer was no. And if the audience didn’t expect it, why should Baelish, who knew less than did the audience?
Well, Ramsey’s violent sex with Myranda in season 4 would be a good place to start.
You’re really going to say that you had no idea consensual sex, even if violent, is different from rape?
I was part of the audience and I definitely expected it. Once Ramsey and Sansa got to their wedding night it should’ve been painfully obvious that Ramsey was not exactly going to make sweet love to Sansa down by the fire.
As I said in one of my previous posts, the public gets outraged over everything, so the fact that there was outrage in no way at all equates to it being unexpected.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
As I said in multiple posts above, there is quite a bit Ramsay can (and did) do to Sansa without damaging her ability to have children. Roose couldn’t rein Ramsay in. Ramsay brutalized the Greyjoy heir they needed as leverage against the Greyjoy attacks and made him unable to have children, rendering his value useless, which Roose chastises Ramsay for.
Well, I don’t consider hunting women for sport, all he did to Theon, castrating Theon, and execution-via-prolonged-flaying things Ramsay had to do.
Flaying somebody alive in front of their wife and children was a pretty disproportionate response and owes to the public nature of Ramsay’s brutal methods.
Not after Theon was castrated, Balon didn’t — but Theon, at that point, was Balon’s only son and only way to keep the name alive. Roose tells Ramsay:
__
I was understating my language to point out the brutality of Ramsay’s actions. Yes, Ramsay did practice pointless brutality and torture. Rape wouldn’t be too far off — especially to somebody like Littlefinger who has experience with Joffrey, his cruel methods, and ran brothels. Again, I didn’t limit what Ramsay could do to Sansa to only rape.
It seemed to me he gambled foolishly by not properly checking out the Boltons, who already publicly practiced brutality.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I’m talking about post-Red Wedding especially, after which Littlefinger arranges for Sansa to marry Ramsay and Sansa agrees. Roose’s rule of Winterfell started with season 4, when they were publicly displaying flayed corpses and Ramsay was terrorizing the Northerners, thus Roose’s chastising of him. Roose didn’t raise Ramsay from birth, he only took him in later in Ramsay’s life when Roose’s trueborn son perishes and Roose had no other options for an heir. His sadism wasn’t secret and was committed out in the open, which is why Roose tells Ramsay that they can’t rely on terror to control the North.
Lyanna knows what happened to Cerwyn (“And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton, still, you refused the call.”). The non-Northern Brienne also realizes the danger Sansa is in (“Better off with the Boltons who murdered her mother and brother? Sansa’s in danger even if she doesn’t realize it.”). Davos and Glover both mention how Glover and other Northerners are afraid to act against the Boltons for fear of being skinned alive (Davos: “They’re more or less the same in any corner of the world and even the bravest of them don’t want to see their wives and children skinned for a lost cause.”/Glover: ”The Boltons helped us do it. Now you want me to fight against them? I could be skinned for even talking to you.”).
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I’m actually surprised that the audience were so shocked to see it happen. The only way for that not to happen was that the wedding never happened in first place but given Ramsay’s brutal nature from previous episode, I don’t think how could anyone expect he would be gentle with Sansa on wedding night. If he was, I don’t think that would be true to Ramsay’s character, unless he would be playing some game with Sansa like he did with Theon in S3. I still think majority of people were outraged because it was Sansa being sexually assaulted… if this was some xyz character playing fake Arya who would only be introduced this season, I doubt there would be any controversy
Violent sex with a willing partner is more than obviously different than rape, but does Sansa seem like the type who wanted violent sex with Ramsey to you? You really thought that Sansa’s wedding night with Ramsey would somehow end up differently? That he’d be gentle?
When your husband-to-be combines violent sex, torturing for fun, having your house sigil be the flayed man, and on and on…that’s a pretty strong indicator that your husband is going to do terrible things to you. You really have to try hard to ignore that all of the indicators were there.
Adrianacandle,
Well, that’s what I actually said myself in the original comment… that Ramsay’s brutal nature only started becoming public after the Boltons took over Winterfell when he gained more power. But prior to that, Ramsay’s nature wasn’t really widely known in TV continuity, unlike in the novels when he’s already renowned psychopath in 2nd novel… at least I felt that way when watching S2 and S3. And I said above that if I didn’t have any access to behind-the-scenes stuff, I would have firmly believed that Littlefinger knew about Ramsay, but sent Sansa there anyway because it could have been one of his chaos games.
Agreed 100%
The problem is, I don’t know what LF would have to gain by sending Sansa to the Boltons by herself with no support. It’s only via Theon and Brienne — which LF had nothing to do with — that Sansa was able to escape. Conversely, LF orchestrated Joffrey’s poisoning and Sansa’s escape from KL.
Well, what did Littlefinger have directly to gain by poisoning Jon Arryn? I don’t think he had a long term plan there either, just causing chaos. There’s no way he could have predicted events unfolding as they did. By giving Sansa to the Boltons, he gained favor from the Boltons. At same time, he had a backup plan that if Stannis defeats the Boltons, Sansa would become Lady of Winterfell and at same time, he had the third plan to mobilize the Vale army and defeat whoever wins the Battle of Winterfell between Stannis and Boltons.
According to Littlefinger, “chaos is a ladder”.
He seems to believe that his only way of gaining power and wealth is by causing chaos.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I believe Littlefinger manipulated Lysa to poison her husband to spark civil war and destabilize the kingdoms, where he continuously worked feuding parties. The assassination of Jon Arryn is what starts this whole thing in the first place. Littlefinger works the Stark mistrust of the Lannisters, convincing Ned to act against Lannisters when Ned discovers the illegitimacy of Cersei’s children and that he’ll have Ned’s back with the goldcloaks as support. Then when Ned confronts Joffrey and Cersei in court with Robert’s will, LF betrays Ned, Ned is arrested and executed, and the Starks are set firmly against the Lannisters. Meanwhile, LF keeps advising the Lannisters as they fight the Starks while plotting Joffrey’s death and Sansa’s escape, where he whisks her off to the Vale and has Sansa and her claim in his pocket to use as a pawn in how he wishes. The thing is, LF still has to have Sansa believe he has her best interests at heart for the most part and won’t let harm come to her in order to keep that association.
The problem with selling Sansa to the Boltons and leaving her alone in that situation is that would and should incite mistrust of LF on Sansa’s part where she loses faith and trust in him. LF sold Sansa to the man who’d torment and rape her. How could LF expect Sansa to trust him again after that?
I think this is where Littlefinger not doing his homework on the Boltons comes into play. He didn’t expect that Sansa would be in such a bad situation, but again, as you and I have stated, this is somewhat hard to believe.
Mr Derp,
Yeah, that’s where the plot problems started for me with this storyline.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”I still think majority of people were outraged because it was Sansa being sexually assaulted… if this was some xyz character playing fake Arya who would only be introduced this season, I doubt there would be any controversy.”
You may be right about the majority. From my standpoint, the marriage plan was stupid. Sansa agreeing to it was ridiculous. It made no sense.
Nevertheless, what was really disappointing to me was that out of all the possible storylines for Sansa (and Sophie) the showrunners could imagine, they chose this one? Rape and brutalization by Ramsay? Because they “loved” the storyline from the books? 😠 This was the “romance” angle they were joking about?
They could have had Sansa stay in the Vale and have a romance with Mya Stone. The audience would have been tickled.
If one of the objectives was to give Sophie some meaty material to sink her teeth into, I don’t think getting “sold” by LF and tortured by Ramsay was the right recipe.
Mr Derp,
Don’t get me started lol. He could have been, but decided he’d rather not right at the end. He did make his apologies and face up to certain things, which counts for something. He also faced up to the fact that he didn’t deserve a better life and only cared about his sister despite her trying to kill him 15 minutes earlier. Ah, young love, so sweet
Jenny,
Yeah, don’t get me started either. Although Jamie reclaimed some honor along the way and did some noble deeds, he threw it all away because…reasons. And for me, his ending in S8 was underwhelming.
Not only that, but his “fight” scene with Euron was a pointless waste of screen time and defied logic.
What were the odds that Euron would survive his ship getting blown up and then appear on the beach at exactly the same time and same place as Jamie?
When Euron showed up, I could almost hear Jamie’s thoughts in Humphrey Bogart’s voice:
“Of all the shorelines in all the cities in all the world, he washes up on mine.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsTkC8OxpOs
at 0:30: “… Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”
– Humphrey Bogart in “Casablanca”
Ten Bears,
Since that cove was supposedly so easy to get to (Davos smuggled a boat and Euron just happened to get there) why didn’t Jaime sneak into the Red Keep that way instead of running around the city waving his hand for 30 minutes? He ended up doing that anyway. Beneath his dignity… and mine for that matter lol. That whole fight scene was dreadful. I know a lot of people love The Bells but oof, I really don’t like some of it
That’s one of the aspects about Tyrion that drove me nuts in the last couple of seasons.
He kept trying to appeal to Cersei’s good nature and convince her to do the right thing…over and over and over again.
Surely, Tyrion of all people should know that Cersei had no good nature at all. It’s one thing to try it once, but that was basically Tyrion’s entire strategy to remove Cersei from power for the last two seasons…keep asking her nicely and eventually some good nature that never existed in her would come out all of a sudden? FFS Tyrion!
He was also SOOOOOO worried about casualties in KL, yet his strategy to Dany was a siege?????? Did Tyrion know that a siege is all about starving people to death until they cave in and surrender? THIS was supposed to be the ultimate strategy to win the people of KL over??
Mr Derp,
Tyrion’s characterisation was puzzling in later seasons. But sometimes the writers didn’t do him any favours. Dany returned from the Dothraki to find Meereen in disarray. It was all supposedly Tyrion’s idea, but in the book it was all of Dany’s decisions coming back to bite her. I mean, why make him look so stupid? If that was a job interview he failed. And then he got everything wrong in Westeros anyway
Mr Derp,
”That’s one of the aspects about Tyrion that drove me nuts in the last couple of seasons.
He kept trying to appeal to Cersei’s good nature and convince her to do the right thing…over and over and over again.”
“Your baby, your baby, your baby.”
That was the essence of S7-S8 Lobotomized Tyrion’s appeals to Cersei. Ugh.
Jenny,
For old time’s sake, when Tyrion was still Tyrion:
Tyrion & Lancel S2e4 “Garden of Bones”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFdj7wPf2XI
(At 1:01 - My favorite part, when Tyrion looks up, knowing he’s snared Lancel.)
Ten Bears,
I think my favourite part is seeing Lancel drop to his knees shouting mercy lol. The actor has great comic timing, I think Cersei pushes him over during the battle of Blackwater and it still makes me laugh. I was never a great fan of pacifist Tyrion, it seemed to make him stupid
Ten Bears,
“Your baby, your baby, your baby.”
That was the essence of S7-S8 Lobotomized Tyrion’s appeals to Cersei. Ugh.
Although he had resisted mightily, Tyrion did indeed absorb Tywin’s propaganda, “Lannisters Uber Alles.” Hence his repeated attempts to make what the script for The Iron Throne called a bloodless revolution. If, upon arrival at Westeros, Dany had executed a precision dragon-strike upon Cercei’s bedchamber, the Targ’ Restoration project would have been completed as soon as it began. But, thanks to Tywin, Tyrion simply could not accept Lannister deaths as the price of his Queen’s ascension.
By any standard, but especially by the standards of Westeros, Tyrion Lannister was an intelligent, learned, curious man. But that does not necessarily protect a mind against the insidious effects of chronic and consistent propaganda, especially when that propaganda comes from a trusted source. During the long misery of needless violence that was 20th Century European history, intellectuals lined up, again and again and again, to defend the counterproductive atrocities perpetrated by their governments. The Bolsheviks were intellectuals, and their regime created mass graveyards across Eurasia, right up until their regime’s final collapse.
Tywin’s insistence upon preserving House Lannister failed. But it did get most of Westeros’ major city destroyed in the process of ending his family.
But Dany went mad because the citizens of KL did not accept her.
Had Dany executed a precision strike upon Cersei’s bedchamber, how would that have changed the common people’s reaction to Dany, and Dany’s subsequent reaction?
Mr Derp,
But Dany went mad because the citizens of KL did not accept her.
I disagree that “Dany went mad.” She did exactly what she had repeatedly said she would do, if circumstances warranted it. Tyrion’s refusal to allow Cersei’s quick death initiated a series of conditions which, in Dany’s judgement, justified her “Fire & Blood” approach. There were many more conditions than just “the citizens of KL did not accept her.” (Which I don’t agree with either.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I’d agree with you, I thought she basically had a bought of road rage. Winning the war didn’t feel as good as she hoped it would, it might not have felt worth it. So she went that extra mile, or 100 miles in this case. The circumstances did not warrant it, not by anyone’s assessment. However, I simply can’t watch her speech to the army or listen to her talking to Jon and conclude that she is sane. She was talking about liberating free people… from what? Life? Talking about counting the swords as a child as if nothing had happened. She was outside of her mind
The circumstances didn’t warrant it though. She had already won.
According to the “Inside the Episode” from the people who wrote this, Dany simply chose to torch everyone because the Red Keep reminded her of what was taken from her. Based on that logic, Dany would’ve torched KL regardless of what Tyrion did or didn’t do.
Jenny,
If this became personal as D&D say, then it’s strange that Dany targeted everyone EXCEPT Cersei, who belongs to the family that actually removed the Targaryens from power.
It would’ve made more sense to burn down the Red Keep before it became hers again. She literally waited until she won back the Red Keep to torch it.
Mr Derp,
According to the “Inside the Episode” from the people who wrote this…
Those people neither created Dany, nor did they create her motivations and judgement. They merely adapted a character and story created by someone else. They’re entitled to their opinions, but I base my opinion upon what they put on the screen, not upon what they say about it.
The circumstances didn’t warrant it though. She had already won.
Upon arrival on Westeros, she was the Mother of Dragons. By the time she had won, two of her ‘children’ were dead. One had been turned into a horrible undead ice thing, and that cackling clown Euron had easily killed the other.
Jenny,
Winning the war didn’t feel as good as she hoped it would, it might not have felt worth it.
There is nothing you could possibly give me that would, in my estimation, be equal to the life of my child. I’m sure many other parents feel the same about their children. Dany lost two of hers. I’m easily convinced she didn’t think Westeros was worth them.
Mr Derp,
Indeed, that made no sense to me either. This wasn’t about Cersei, this was rage, this was a punishment. Dany decided that the people of KL didn’t want her purely because they weren’t rioting in the streets against Cersei. That was enough for her to say fine, i’m done caring about you. But even then, when she was talking to `Jon, she blamed Cersei for using their innocence against her… somehow. Not making any sense, she had to have gone mad
You have to be kidding. What they put on screen matters, but not what they say? You do realize what they put on screen is a direct reflection of their thoughts and motivations for the character, right? Especially since there was no original source materials for them to use at that point. The last couple of seasons were pretty much all D&D.
If their thoughts and character motivations make no sense then that’s going to come across that way onscreen.
Mr Derp,
Well, if you want to go by what they say, fine, but the first comments about Dany in their “Inside the Episode” video are about her having lost, or having lost trust in, all of her advisors. Not that the people of King’s Landing gave her a sad.
They also comment that Jon’s having told of his true identity angered her, along with his inability to return her affections. As Weiss puts it, I think that when she says, “Let it be fear,” she’s resigning herself to the fact that she may have to get things done in a way that isn’t pleasant. And she may have to get things done in a way that is horrible for lots of people.
(Notice that he prefaces it with “I think…” He’s clearly speculating. I choose to draw my conclusions from what he put on the screen, not by what he speculated about it afterwards. You are free to do as you like.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”(Notice that he [Weiss] prefaces it with “I think…” He’s clearly speculating. I choose to draw my conclusions from what he put on the screen, not by what he speculated about it afterwards…”
And you don’t see a problem if there’s a dissonance between what concluded you saw on screen and what he said he intended to portray on screen?
Ten Bears,
And you don’t see a problem if there’s a dissonance between what concluded you saw on screen and what he said he intended to portray on screen?
There’s no dissonance between the quote I provided and Dany’s actions. Weiss speculated she’d prepared herself to use terrible means to reach her ends. In the show, she did just that. (Whether she used those terrible means appropriately or not isn’t the point, because deciding to use those means is a necessary precondition to actual use of them.)
As for Benioff’s off-cited quote about the sight of the Red Keep prompting her decision to burn the city, sure, that might have done it. (So could any number of other things.) Sitting atop Drogon on the city wall, she was clearly conflicted about what to do, and the slightest cue in either direction could have affected the outcome of the infamous coin flip. (Emerson warned us against over-analyzing history, as the causes can be quite superficial.)
Ten Bears,
You know, I find it funny that you’re telling me above that we should “leave this behind” when I re-posted my 12 brainstorming points why I enjoy Sansa’s S5 story and yet you keep going on with your cyclic rants about all that you hate…how much you hate Sansa’s S5 story, how much you hate Bran, how much you hate Tyrion in second half of the series, how much you hate Cersei in last season, how much you hate pretty much everything in late stages but Arya. So I’m the one who is supposed to move on because of what??? Is my appreciation of pretty much everything you hate a threat to you?
And I’ll tell you this… I kept my mouth shut about this because it’s a sensitive topic but I find your labeling of Tyrion as lobotomized very very unpleasant because Tyrion is extremely relatable to me in last couple seasons and I admire that he went from a schemer to a pacifist, that he wanted to be “good”, that he wanted a new chance for himself so he wouldn’t be the person he used to be, that he wanted to find a person he can believe in… because Tyrion’s ideology from later seasons has been my own life’s ideology for as far back as I remember! The idea there’s good inside people! The idea of giving people new chances! I was in dark place in my early teens, to the point I almost gave up on myself… not literally as in wanting to stop living, but I was becoming just an empty shell, with no wish at all to look forward to anything. And if I didn’t latch to this belief, I don’t know where I would have been now… it literally saved me on more than one occasion, saving me from falling into an endless black pit in my mind and the most beautiful moments in my life were those when this turned out to be true. I literally keep coming back to this site because of this belief even though I wanted to give up numerous times! Because I believe there’s still something good here for me, for my GoT enthusiasm.
I’m sorry for bringing up such sensitive topic, but at same time, I’m not sorry because it’s honestly very very very hard for me to look upon this character’s story where I see my own life reflecting in it, the core ideology of my existence, and at same time hearing it labeled “lobotomized” because a character tried to believe in peace and wanted to be “good”.
Not to speak for Ten Bears but it’s not personal, Erik. These are discussions about fictional characters and fictional stories. Though I’m not a fan of the same rants and season 8 fights myself because I find them tired at this point with nobody budging in their view, as I’ve expressed probably too much (though I did participate in aforementioned areas myself in this thread) and I try to limit myself there, that is my own choice and my own feeling. I can express said feelings but people are going to do what they’re going to do/feel how they feel/have differing opinions and they’re free to do so (and ideally, with civility).
Ten Bears is expressing his opinion about how fictional character(s) are written relevant to WotW’s subject matter with nothing personal about any other poster being said and I’d say he has a right to do so, critical or appreciative.
You are free to challenge him in turn. I have both agreed and disagreed with Ten Bears myself during the years I’ve been on WotW. And when I disagree, I respond with why I disagree. You are free to do so too. You are also free to mention how it is a sensitive topic, of course, but all Ten Bears is doing is expressing what he feels went wrong with a fictional character.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”..The idea of giving people new chances! I was in dark place in my early teens, to the point I almost gave up on myself… not literally as in wanting to stop living, but I was becoming just an empty shell, with no wish at all to look forward to anything. And if I didn’t latch to this belief, I don’t know where I would have been now… it literally saved me on more than one occasion, saving me from falling into an endless black pit in my mind and the most beautiful moments in my life were those when this turned out to be true.”
I was not aware of this. Forget about Tyrion for now.
There’s a song that’s become somewhat of an anthem for people going through rough patches in their lives. I was ready to post it as a Musical Interlude dedicated to the Greens 💚 – Queen Alicent and Ser Cristin Cole – because the singer debuted it on live TV dressed in green
Now I think I’ll post it here for you. Stay tuned.
Some of you may remember me writing a long bullet-point post a while back about Dany nuking KL — Tensor quoted/mentioned it a couple of times too — but here’s the short version:
Dany didn’t “go insane” and nuke KL. She went insane *because* she nuked KL. She became psychotic *after* nuking KL because of the cognitive dissonance caused by the contradiction between her self-image as a fundamentally good person (a “force for good”) and the horrific evil of her own actions. And the only way her mind could cope with being responsible for genocide was to psychologically blank out the presence of those hundreds of thousands of innocent victims in the city she’d nuked, as her weird dazed/confused reaction to Jon angrily reminding her of those victims revealed.
Dany’s actions also finally (and fully) unleashed her latent psychopathy, although she’d already been accelerating her path to full-scale psychopath earlier in the season, given her increasingly blame-the-victim attitude.
Along with all that, remember that Dany’s behaviour was a reaction to Cersei’s decisions too: Cersei had refused to surrender when directly offered the chance, she’d simultaneously beheaded Dany’s best friend (deliberately adding insult to injury), and she decided to use KL’s civilian population as human shields. In terms of pure military realpolitik, Dany subsequently had no choice but to carry out her threat and simultaneously send a message to potential future adversaries that hiding behind human shields wouldn’t save them from attack if they’d refused to surrender when offered terms.
However, I do agree that the on-screen depiction of the process was mishandled; Dany had been steadily accelerating from 5 to 60…and then she suddenly slammed her foot down and instantly went to 200. I’m assuming GRRM’s eventual books (usual disclaimers apply) will be much better in these areas.
The “rule over the ashes/queen of the ashes” thing seems to be inspired from an apparently fake quote attributed to Sun Tzu: “An evil enemy will burn his own nation to the ground to rule over the ashes”. Clever signposting about Dany’s true role in the story, though.
Tyrion’s eventual character arc also obviously suffered from the lack of ASOIAF books to draw from, but it’s not necessarily as “stupid” as some people may think. Again, I think there could have been better ways to portray it on-screen, but it involved some of Tyrion’s all-too-human flaws: Most of all, the fact that Tyrion’s judgement seems to be compromised when the situation involves a woman he loves (romantically or non-romantically). Pattern: The young woman he fell in love with as a teenager, then his obvious crush on Dany, and his (mostly one-sided) emotional connection with big sister Cersei.
The thing with Cersei also overlaps with Tyrion’s reactions to Tywin: In both cases, Tyrion seems to severely underestimate how much his close relative despises him and actually wishes him fatal harm. Unfortunately this is realistic too; it’s an all-too-common pattern among victims of domestic abuse, honour-killings, “battered spouse syndrome” etc, most of all when it involves close blood relatives. The emotional family bond can have that effect. There are also very well-known examples from medieval and ancient history around the world, involving various aristocrats finding it difficult to believe that their hostile close relative really has no empathy towards them and would be prepared to kill them in certain situations…and then it actually happens.
Sansa and LF…The to-and-fro discussion above was fascinating, but the reason LF’s behaviour made no sense was simply because GoT’s showrunners/writers hadn’t properly thought things through. GRRM also clearly agrees with this opinion.
Speaking of not properly thinking things through — and I don’t just mean the scene of Brienne slamming that heavy book shut while the ink was still wet, instantly smudging Jaime’s chapter — the final scenes included Tyrion’s Small Council, in what appeared to be Tywin’s old room. But Dany nuked the Red Keep, no? So where exactly was that meeting? Tywin’s room miraculously survived? Or did Tyrion and the gang rebuild the Red Keep, including a replica of Tywin’s office? In the middle of what is now a city of ashes? Okay, enough nitpicking. But if GoT fans didn’t nitpick, we’d have nothing to argue about. And then what would we do, hmm? Hmmmm? 😉
Jai,
Regarding Tywin’s old room in Red Keep, we already saw in opening scenes of the final episode that this room survived and suffered no cave-in because we see Tyrion walking through it immediately after KL destruction, before venturing into the dungeons. So in whatever part of the castle this room was, it wasn’t as damaged as some other parts. And considering there’s a multi-week time jump before the Dragonpit Great Council, and likely another time jump before Small Councill meeting, it’s not far-fetched to say that this room and some other parts of the Red Keep and King’s Landing were already repaired by then. We never really see the full shot of Red Keep after the dragonfire but considering Harrenhal’s stone structure survived the dragonfire of Aegon’s Balerion, it’s likely the main structure of Red Keep survived as well.
Jai,
In regard to Tyrion, I think the season 5 and beyond arc for him is a change from the books as well. Tyrion goes quite dark — raping prostitutes, lusting for revenge against his family. He has absolutely no love for Cersei, only hatred in book five, and doesn’t express much affection for his niece and nephews in his mind. Tyrion honestly doesn’t wish Tommen and Myrcella any harm but is willing to allow them to die in his pursuit of revenge against Cersei — grappling with this question since ASOS (“I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya,” he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. “How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?” But if I don’t, Cersei wins.) In ADWD, he is decided that he will allow his niece and nephew to die in pursuit of revenge against Cersei. He also harbours deep resentment toward Jaime for his part in what happened to Tysha while also missing him too. I think that’s where Tyrion’s feelings divide.
Some excerpts from ADWD:
I think Tyrion’s humanity is starting to trickle back in via his relationship with Penny but his hatred for Cersei is well set.
Just finished Episode 9 of Season 1. What a great episode, the build up to Ned’s death is immense. One thing i’ve always wondered, was Dany’s baby always a monster? Or did going into that tent turn him into one? As part of the ‘only death can pay for life’ thing. Seemed kind of weird for Jorah to take Dany in there, he could have delivered that baby, he only had to catch
Jenny,
I was always under the impression that MMD’s curse turned Dany’s unborn baby into what was later described to Dany as part of the cost MMD tricked Dany into paying. I don’t think MMD ever had any intention of helping Dany and Dany loses her child because of it.
Adrianacandle,
That makes sense, I wonder if that’s why she went into labour straight away. With the timing of it all, I half wondered if going into the tent did it but yes, it was a malicious thing she did. Bit out of order really! She makes a good point when she asks what Dany saved, but she didn’t deserve that
Yeah, that’s where the situation gets tricky for me. MMD is right that the damage against her people has already been done, nothing can ever make that right or bring her people back, but Dany is not the responsible party. I’d say Drogo deserves MMD’s wrath and those who took part in the slaughter of MMD’s village but not Dany and much less Dany’s unborn child. However, Dany’s the one who receives the brunt of the punishment with MMD making her partially responsible for the death of her husband and child by deceiving her into paying a cost Dany thought was Drogo’s horse.
Adrianacandle,
However, Dany’s the one who receives the brunt of the punishment with MMD making her partially responsible for the death of her husband and child…
I believe it’s less about justice and punishment for what has already happened, and more about preventing future atrocities by Dothraki. IIRC, MMD also believed that Dany’s unborn child could become “the stallion who mounts the world,” and so MMD decided to kill that stallion when she had the chance. (We might consider this event to be the very first entry in the ledger for ‘betrayed by advisors’ account, which Dany used to justify going it alone in King’s Landing…)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Yes, I recall MMD’s reasons but I personally cannot agree with them as I couldn’t in real life situations condemning an unborn child based on their parentage — and no more than I could Robert being pleased over the killing of Rhaegar and Elia’s children: Rhaenys and baby Aegon. Dany and her child both had done no wrong to MMD or to any villages at this point. Dany’s child hadn’t even had the chance to live and was innocent.
I know I’ve spoken about my feelings on Dark Dany and whatever the motivations may be for KL, etc. and they’ve been debated quite a bit in this thread too. It wasn’t something that worked for me but that’s not really going to be a battle I plan on picking today.
Adrianacandle,
I am finding Dany’s scenes so sad to watch now. This is my first full rewatch start to end and i’m already depressed by it. To start to so low, build herself up only fall again. It’s just so sad. I’ve also talked at length in this thread about my thoughts on her ending and why I have issues with it, but it happened and i’m watching it with that in mind for the first time. If only she’d been happy to rule Meereen 🙁
Jai,
That kind of fits with my interpretation, she didn’t feel the satisfaction she expected, she just felt the desperate loss of her children and friends and her anger took over. However, she had already decided that the people of KL had sided with Cersei purely because they weren’t rebelling in the streets. That’s not exactly rational thinking. So I can’t really pinpoint a moment. She looked ill in the opening of The Bells, they were clearly indicating that something had changed inside her. She was definitely ‘mad’ afterwards though.
I haven’t rewatched GoT yet but I know from rewatching my other favorite TV shows (LOST and The Walking Dead mainly) how different can it feel to rewatch certain scenes by knowing character’s death or downfall approaches. In my case, scenes that I didn’t pay that much attention to during original watch more than often become more heavy. That’s why first rewatch of ensemble-character-focused shows is so crucial to me when it comes to TV shows I love. I do think S6 will feel different in terms of Dany to me when I get to rewatch it… it already felt different rewatching it with S7 in mind but with S8, I think it will be even more. Season 6 was the only season where I was able to pretty much warm up to Dany as a protagonist but knowing the whole story now, sailing to Westeros is the beginning of the end for her… S6 is when her wish to conquer the Iron Throne becomes dominant (again?) and by the time of S7, she already labels it as her entire life’s purpose. There’s this interesting bit in S6 that I noticed way back in 2016… when Daario openly speaks against Dany going to Westeros, saying something in a way that she’s more of a liberator or conqueror than a queen. I very well remembered this line because I felt it wasn’t put there without a reason and knowing how it ends, this may have been subtle foreshadowing. In this same episode, episode 6 of S6, director Jack Bender made comparison of Dany’s speech to Dothraki to Hitler’s speech in Nurnberg – “At the end of the scene you should be somewhat roused by her…and a little horrified. She’s not Hitler at Nuremberg but she’s got the power.” – this makes me think he was hinting on darker side regarding her sailing to Westeros. Why else would he make an implication that we should be “a little horrified”? And there’s this detail too that this speech happens before war in Slaver’s Bay even ended… a bit of a turning point compared to S4/S5 when Dany was like “Slaver’s Bay first, Westeros second”. So bottom line, I think S6 marks the point where Dany’s “ascent” stops and eventual descent begins and I wonder how I will see it on rewatches.
Adrianacandle,
Yes, I recall MMD’s reasons but I personally cannot agree with them as I couldn’t in real life situations condemning an unborn child based on their parentage … Dany’s child hadn’t even had the chance to live and was innocent.
In our world, a world of democracy and individual human rights, you are (of course) completely correct. In Dany’s world, a world of bloodlines and hereditary monarchy, Khal Drogo’s child shares both his accomplishments and his atrocities. In that world, MMD was entirely correct in killing that child. (Or maybe not entirely correct; her doing so led directly to her own fiery death, which seemed conducive to hatching dragons…)
Jenny,
I am finding Dany’s scenes so sad to watch now. This is my first full rewatch start to end and i’m already depressed by it.
I have yet to embark upon a full-series rewatch (now that COVID is passing, I’m loath ever to sit indoors again!) but when I do, there are many scenes which will look much different with knowledge of How It All Ends. Robert’s attempt to kill her, Ned’s outrage over it, Jorah’s love for her, Barristan’s saving of her, her burning of the Khals — much to revisit there. If it helps, Dany’s story is the one closest to the foundational myths of Western culture: the Greek tragedies, where Character Is Fate. Oedipus tried to escape, and failed; so did Dany.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I cannot agree that MMD was correct for killing an innocent unborn child based on her fear over his parentage, no more than I can agree on Robert having Rhaegar’s children killed because they are Targaryens (or “dragonspawn” as he puts it). No more than I can agree with Sansa being beaten and tormented for Ned and Robb’s actions, for Westerosi prejudices against bastard children. For me, prejudice is never correct and that’s why MMD condemned that child. I’m not looking at it through the lens of what’s okay and what’s not okay in that world as far as in-universe characters are concerned (and Ned wasn’t okay with killing innocents for their parentage either). I’m looking at it through accountability and what individuals are responsible for rather than it being correct for condemning based on prejudice.
This isn’t a view that seems to be celebrated by the author either — that children are guilty for the sins of the father. He explores how those children suffer because of these prejudices (Jon for his bastardy, Dany for her parentage, Arya and Brienne for not fitting gender standards, Tyrion for being a dwarf and a Lannister).
GRRM also goes on to caution about generalizing families:
Generalizing and “shared guilt” is also the reason I have an issue with Dany’s slaver BBQ because the punishment may not have fit the crime. While all of the slavers she burned are guilty of owning slaves, not all may have been guilty for crucifying those slave children, the action for which she crucified them. What I view MMD having done is worse: Dany’s unborn child was guilty of nothing, not even his conception. He hadn’t even been born before being killed over his parentage.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Oh, I think I see better what you mean. If I do understand correctly, I think there’s a difference between legality, Planeteos morality, and morality. As far as Planeteos morality, that is also muddied, can be inconsistent, prejudicial, and variable depending on a wide variety of circumstances like location, the people, the people’s practices and customs, the stigmatized individuals involved, etc.
In regard to legality, King Robert made the law. He could legally kill whoever he wanted for whatever reason no matter the morality of the action. Same with Joffrey and Cersei. Robert could rape Cersei as much as he liked, Joffrey could have Sansa beaten as much as he liked for Ned and Robb’s actions, torture various civilians at his leisure, same with the Boltons. Yet MMD had no such authority over Dany and her child. Her fears were entirely based on that unborn child’s parentage. She had no evidence this would come to pass, this child was guilty of nothing himself that made him different from any other child, there’s no method that could determine this child would indeed be the Stallion Who Mounted the World. There’s not even genetic testing in this world to determine if this child would pose a threat in any way but was being condemned entirely on his parentage alone.
I don’t recall the text pointing to a universal view that it’s okay to have children killed for the sins of their fathers but, that said, depending on the parentage and the people’s relationship to the individual parent(s), some people in-universe may view it as okay. The people of MMD’s village may laud MMD’s actions for taking vengeance against Drogo, have zero sympathy for the Khal’s wife, and may celebrate killing his unborn son because that child was related to Khal Drogo — but this is still punishing two innocent parties because of their association to the Khal, much less killing a child over their parentage. But if MMD is correct for her vengeance against her people and killing an unborn child based on fears of his parentage and MMD’s belief that he’d become the Stallion Who Mounts the World, I’d say Dany is correct for executing MMD for something MMD is actually guilty of. That’d be okay among that culture.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I don’t know if I see it that way exactly. Dany is probably the character most connected to prophecy and visions, magical blood I guess. But nothing has ever pointed to her death, at least not that I can recall. Nothing has ever pointed to her madness either. There is a hint at the end of Dance, her hallucinations. I don’t know whether she failed to escape her fate, it may come in later books (if they ever happen) but at the moment it’s just guiding her towards the others and Griff/Jon. I feel like we’d know about any such prophecy by now, Cersei’s was introduced so late that I wonder if GRRM made it up on the fly. But Dany the Greek tragic hero would make sense in the grand scheme of things. The show presented it as a fluke series of circumstances which pushed her to the edge in S7 and 8, yes she could be hard and was flawed in many ways RE: her expectations, but I never expected her to become what she did in the end. I’m just rambling now sorry lol. Musing as I type
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
During S7 I kept going back to that line, ‘you’re a conquerer Daenerys Stormborm’ that’s how I often viewed her, given her struggles in actually ruling the places she conquered. That was confirmation that she’d never be Queen, at least not for long. S8 had me flip flopping as I mentioned before, I knew she wouldn’t be Queen but her going bad/mad was more uncertain for me because she was doing exactly what Jon wanted. She just wasn’t ready to hand over the North yet.
I just started S2, Stannis dictating that letter is so funny, the most pedantic man in Westeros
Jenny,
I did like the humour and moments of levity that Stannis brought to the series — both book and show 🙂 And what made it all the more enjoyable for me was he was never meaning to be funny 😉
Jenny,
Regarding your comment to Tensor, Dany does recieve the prophecy in the novels that she’ll be betrayed for the third time and that betrayal will be for love. Considering we’re talking about the THIRD time a.k.a “third time is the charm”, I always had an impression whatever this betrayal will be, it will be far worse than the first two betrayals, even more because it would happen not for gold, not for blood, but for love. Assuming this final betrayal is Jon killing her (something I’m sure came from GRRM) it’s pretty much the case. As for the TV show, I had speculations of Dany dying at the end because of the House of the Undying vision… the vision ends with her returning to Drogo which I firmly interpretated as her dying and returning to her loved one. Although my initial interperation was that she would die in the fight against the White Walkers because she crosses the Wall and snowstorm prior to reuniting with Drogo… although now, I could also make an interpretation that going from destroyed Throne chamber through SNOW signifies Jon Snow killing her.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Like many of the prophecies of the books, the three betrayals are never featured in the show (or mentioned in the show). We don’t know how they will manifest in the books, who does them, or what exactly they mean. There are already a number of changes from book to show, especially in regard to prophecy of which many have been cut. The only things confirmed from GRRM himself are what twists he revealed: who ends up on the Iron Throne, Stannis kills Shireen, and the origins of Hodor (which GRRM has also stated will occur differently than from how the show depicted it).
The show’s version of HotD can be interpreted to signify Dany’s death but there’s not really anything inherent in Jon actually killing Dany vis a vis snow on the throne. The more obvious conclusion was that Jon was a) the heir to the throne (which isn’t exactly true because the throne was under the Baratheon regime but the show treated it as true) and b) Jon Snow may sit the throne.Yet Jon can’t sit the throne. The throne is melted and Bran becomes king.
Adrianacandle,
Wanting to call Jaime the Kingslayer and then insisting he also be called Ser lol He’s still a Knight after all
Jenny,
LOL, I mean points to Stannis putting aside scorn for observing formalities 😉
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That’s true, Jon could be the betrayal for love. She has been betrayed by Jorah, Brown Ben Plumm and Hizdahr (assuming he is connected to the Harpy’s) I don’t trust Daario for one second and Dany is besotted with him. Urgh.
The House of the Undying prophecy gets a bit muddy, in the Season 2 script it is snow in the throne room, which could hint at Jon being the heir and also him killing her there. But in the Season 8 script, it has been changed to ash after Dany burns KL. I’m not sure that they were certain of the exact ending back then, its a bit of a retcon. At the time, I interpreted it as Dany turning her back on the throne to go beyond the wall, which she does in Season 7, I thought it was related to her fight with the others.
Well, the three betrayals may not be done to kill Dany but to get something from Dany or from a situation with Dany. “Third time’s a charm” doesn’t really feature in the books either. Because this book prophecy also foretells the future, these three betrayals may not have occurred yet. Jorah, Tyrion, or another character like Daario (who Dany is besotted by, as Jenny said, and I’ll also add he’s a bit of a monster who is only interested in Dany’s power) can also be the final betrayal. Or the one for gold. Or blood. Jorah has also been speculated to be the betrayal for love due to jealousy because he’s in love with Dany. In the books, Dany gets upset with Jorah for chasing all her suitors away as Jorah wants Dany for himself and Dany can’t return those feelings. These advances make her uncomfortable and she wants him to stop. To me, Show!Jorah appears quite a bit nobler and sympathetic than Book!Jorah, who (seen through Dany’s eyes) is kind of icky and controlling, making multiple marriage requests and not taking ‘cut it out’ for an answer. He’s sexually attracted to Dany, who’s merely 13 at the point he meets her as a 45-year old man.
I also remember he’d have sex with Dany-lookalike sex slaves after meeting Dany (but skinny blondes may be Jorah’s type: he fell in love with his second wife, Lynesse Hightower, because of her beauty and she’s another skinny blonde. It was to satisfy her expensive tastes that he bankrupted himself, took out loans from money lenders in Braavos, and traded slaves). It’s speculated he could betray Dany in a significant way — particularly since while Dany does value him personally, it’s not as a romantic partner and Jorah can do really crappy things for his own personal interests.
He could be the betrayal for gold because unknown to Dany, Jorah is still informing on her when she receives her House of the Undying visions in book 2. When Dany finds out, Jorah responds: ”I am no man’s creature. I took the eunuch’s gold, yes. I learned some ciphers and wrote some letters, but that was all—” He betrayed her for gold and a pardon via the (gold) Lannisters, working for them.
But the three betrayals are quite open at this point, especially with GRRM’s own story unfinished.
I am trying to imagine the twitter meltdown had show Jorah turned out to be just like book Jorah. D&D probably would’ve been destroyed faster than the Golden Company.
Mr Derp,
I don’t know, he’s clearly in love with her in the show, which is only slightly less creepy because they aged her up. If he was pushier, people would just hate him. Ageing up the characters slightly saved them a lot of headaches, nobody wants to see a 12/13 year old in that situation
No kidding. I don’t blame D&D for making these changes. They were right to do so. I’m simply saying if show Jorah ended up like book Jorah then twitter would have the melt down of all melt downs.
Pretty much everyone was in love with Dany on the show at some point. Even Yara.
Jenny,
The writers already got to know the ending way back when they were making S1 if I remember right, or when S1 aired at latest. GRRM himself stated he told them about the ending in case anything happens to him and he’s unable to finish the novels. So I’m sure the vision in the House of the Undying was not some xyz stuff by the time it was made. If the vision was only about her turning back from Iron Throne and venturing beyond the Wall, then I would assume it’s just her abandoning the quest for the Iron Throne in order to defeat WW. But considering she meets Drogo and her unborn sun, I’m very much sure that was foreshadowing of her death. And I’m still very much sure Jon killing Dany is a plot point from the novels, even more with the “betrayal out of love”. I just can’t shake the feeling that this final foreshadowed betrayal in the novels is something bad, really bad. Especially because it’s final.
I don’t remember D&D or GRRM saying anything like this before their story meeting in 2013. I could be unaware of the source. Do you have a source for this?
I do remember David Benioff saying:
GRRM would be writing book 5 between 2005-2010 when D&D went to visit him back then. It was published in July 2011. The making of season 1 happened in 2009, airing in spring 2011. As for “final” betrayal, it’s not stated as the final betrayal but as a third betrayal she will face. It may not mean her death.
Mr Derp,
I think it is good the show made Jorah less pervy, less skeezy or it’d probably bear resemblance to LF’s obsession with Sansa. In the novels, LF is about 32 while Sansa is 11-13.
Adrianacandle,
Well, I’m almost sure that there were words around way before 2013 that GRRM already discussed the ending or at least not-published material with Benioff and Weiss. They weren’t completely in the dark by the time of 2013. Here’s one statement I managed to find from GRRM shortly before S1 aired:
They asked a few key questions and I supplied them with some information. In that sense, David and Dan probably know more about where I’m going with this and what the eventual end will be and what some of the later revelations down the road are going to be than anyone else because they wanted to know, rightly so, where they were going. So, we communicated, had a number of phone calls and exchanged emails, in the early days. That first meeting of ours was epic. We met for lunch in the Palm Restaurant in Los Angeles and we were still talking when they were setting up for the dinner service. Our lunch went four or five hours there.
And here’s the one I remember (especially “Hit by the truck” part), stated in june 2011
I know the ending in broad strokes. I don’t know every little twist and turn that will get me there, and I don’t know the ending of every secondary character. But the ending and the main characters, yeah. And [Game of Thrones producers] David Benioff and Dan Weiss know some of that too, which the fans are very worried about in case I get hit by a truck
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I don’t say that as a criticism, sorry if it seemed that way, I can only go by the scripts and the snow was changed to ash. I get the impression that we are meant to believe it was always ash and it was foreshadowing Dany’s final scene in the throne room. There are a few things like that in show, all part of adapting an unfinished work. They knew the broad strokes but they had to bring everything round full circle and tie things up, would they know that Jon kills Dany in the throne room? That’s very specific. You could well be right about it hinting at Jon, it would definitely fit. Unfortunately I can’t remember the book version which was quite a bit different. I remember the mummers dragon bit, there was a lot going on in that whole scene
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
First, thanks for the interview excerpts. It does sound like GRRM didn’t have everything figured out at this point and told D&D a few key factors that he had figured out. It also sounds like GRRM trusted D&D to figure out stuff based on what information he had told them but with the use of “probably”, that sounds like speculation, not a certainty.
With Tyrion, he is quite a rapey bitterball of hatred and resentment in ADWD, intent on revenge against Cersei and Jaime both. However, Tyrion still loves Jaime despite himself. I think, when it comes to Dany and Young Griff’s conflict, he’ll be fanning the flames and setting them both against each other and Cersei to better his chances of revenge — but Tyrion may decide to save Jaime at the last minute because he can’t drop his love for his brother.
Jenny,
There was a lot of stuff going on in the book version of the House of the Undying. It takes up, if I remember correctly, nearly the entire chapter. Because I can’t quote the entire chapter, you can find the House of the Undying stuff in A Clash of Kings, Daenerys IV (or chapter 48) 🙂 I think Dany even has a vision of the Red Wedding at this point too.
No doubt. Any action to eliminate skeezyness (is that a word?)is always appreciated 🙂
We’d all be telling show Dany NOT to listen to her advisors had show Ser Friendzone been the same as the books, that’s for sure.
Mr Derp,
Off-topic but I consider skeeziness a word even if my spellcheck doesn’t 😉 I hope it’s a word anyhow x_x
Thinking of ‘skeezy’ – well there are some words which feature as regional words in the English language which might not be in the dictionary. In the UK ‘mardy’ is used as meaning roughly whiny and petulant in a spoiled child sort of way in the north and midlands of England. Of course I haven’t much clue about regional words in the USA/Canada/Australia/US unless they make their way on to a TV programme that gets aired in the UK.
Anyway, something in real life which made me think of AOIAF/GoT (no it wasn’t that dragon which flew over my house t’other day (joke)). A news item about women’s army cadets complaining about having to march in heels made me think about complaints from some of the fandom about the Sand Snakes’ battle armour and observations by some about the impracticality of book Asha’s ringmail bikini https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/world/europe/ukraine-military-heels.html
Adrianacandle,
I’m not sure about copyright rules so not linking but a YouTuber channel called hobani has a voiceover of the book House of the Undying (some of it anyway – it’s only 4:22 long). It’s called ‘The House of the Undying (the book version)” if anyone cares to look it up. It’s from 2013.
Thinking of it, the reader hasn’t as yet learned whether the woman with the baby when Rhaegar played the harp was Elia or Lyanna.
Jai,
Along with all that, remember that Dany’s behaviour was a reaction to Cersei’s decisions too: Cersei had refused to surrender when directly offered the chance, she’d simultaneously beheaded Dany’s best friend (deliberately adding insult to injury), and she decided to use KL’s civilian population as human shields. In terms of pure military realpolitik, Dany subsequently had no choice but to carry out her threat and simultaneously send a message to potential future adversaries that hiding behind human shields wouldn’t save them from attack if they’d refused to surrender when offered terms.
Thank you for this reminder, Jai. Dany was in a position to dictate terms, she did, and Cersei obstinately refused — despite having no other options (!). In Dark Age terms (heck, in Roman Empire terms) that justifies anything Dany does in response. Combine that with Dany’s other experiences (slaves rose for her in other places, while the ‘free’ people of King’s Landing simply cowered, Oleanna’s speech about dragons vs. sheep, etc.) and we get destruction of the entire city, not just the Red Keep.
I’ll have to disagree with you on the pace, though: I’m completely with Young Dragon on that. 🙂
Also, thank you very much for summarizing your excellent comments on how, exactly, Dany reached her final mental state. I tried to find your original post, but it eluded me.
To be fair, Dany didn’t expect the Unsullied to join her. She gave them the choice of freedom or joining her, and they chose to join her. She didn’t seem to have the same expectations that they would follow her like she did later on in KL. At least, in the show. I can’t account for the books.
Perhaps Dany’s expectations changed after the Unsullied chose to follow her? That might’ve led Dany to expect that everyone would follow her.
Edit timer ran out.
I think the best advice Jorah ever gave Dany was back in season 2:
“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,” Ser Jorah told her. “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.”
Ya know, the interesting thing is that, back in season 2, Dany was well aware that the common people in KL would not welcome her as a liberator:
Dany – “The people in Westeros don’t know I’m alive”
Jorah – “They will soon enough”
Dany – “and then what? They’ll pray for my return? They’ll waive dragon banners and shout my name? Something my brother believed in and he’s a fool”.
Perhaps her disposition changed as time went on and more people started believing in her while her popularity increased, but she seemed to be a lot smarter in season 2 than later on.
Jai,
She rubs her hand to check to make sure it’s dry before she closes it watch the scene again.
Jenny,
I watched it and it makes sense to me I understand what their saying.
I took your advice and watched the scene again. It turns out that you are wrong. Her hand comes close at 1:57, but never touches the ink.
Jai,
…Brienne slamming that heavy book shut while the ink was still wet, instantly smudging Jaime’s chapter.
When recording the great deeds in your Kingsguard Chronicles, you need the very best. Three-Eyed Raven Provisioners, purveyors of only the finest and most excellent scrivening supplies, offers their guarantee: When your history is written, our ink is dry.
(Offer available only on Westeros. Check your Maester for availability, else voyage Beyond the Wall not assured of success. )
😉
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Joking aside, the reason I noticed that stuff in Brienne’s scene was because I remembered a much earlier scene depicting Tywin quietly writing a letter while Cersei was ranting at him (I think she was complaining about Tywin not taking her as seriously as he takes her brothers because she’s a woman). The scene was beautifully shot and included close-ups of Tywin carefully sprinkling charcoal on the parchment to dry the ink. It turns out that medieval people really did do that. I’d had no idea about that until I saw that GoT episode and, out of curiosity, did some googling afterwards. It’s minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, of course, but it’s a great example of GoT’s attention to detail at the time (the cinematography in the scene was clearly making a point about it too), something I think the show lost to some extent during the final seasons in the rush to wrap everything up. The Brienne scene is indicative of broader issues, in a way, and not just regarding people smudging ink.
Thank you very much for your kind words about my thoughts on Dany’s mental state. The original longer bullet-point post I wrote a while back is here: https://watchersonthewall.com/nathalie-emmanuel-aiden-gillen-defend-game-thrones-ending/#comment-2149785
Mr Derp,
Not necessarily “smarter”, but Dany was comparatively less egotistical and narcissistic at that point (note the word “comparatively” — she still had issues). So what changed? Her increasing ego and sense of entitlement increasingly impaired her judgement and sense of ethics. This is exactly what happens with narcissistic personality disorder, especially when it escalates to malignant narcissism. Dany’s character arc is a classic example.
Jai,
“The scene was beautifully shot and included close-ups of Tywin carefully sprinkling charcoal on the parchment to dry the ink. It turns out that medieval people really did do that. I’d had no idea about that until I saw that GoT episode and, out of curiosity, did some googling afterwards. It’s minor stuff in the grand scheme of things, of course, but it’s a great example of GoT’s attention to detail at the time (the cinematography in the scene was clearly making a point about it too), something I think the show lost to some extent during the final seasons in the rush to wrap everything up. The Brienne scene is indicative of broader issues, in a way, and not just regarding people smudging ink.”
Thanks for that factoid about charcoal powder as an ink blotter! I learn so much here from my fellow commenters. 💡
.
Jai,
We’ll, Humble Dany was unsure the Northerners would accept her… until silly Sickbed Jon assured her they would once they got to know her.
#SheIsMuhKween
That White Book scene still depresses me, it’s so sad 🙁
Yea, Jon did absolutely nothing to try and make it work with Dany and the Northerners. He pretty much let her fend for herself. I thought she was his queen?
For the life of me I still can’t figure out why NONE of her advisors or herself ever thought about a P.R. campaign in Westeros prior to invading it. If they wanted the common people to rise up for Dany or get the support of the other Houses then they should’ve tried appealing to them. She already used this tactic in Meereen with great success. WHY DID THEY NOT TRY THIS IN WESTEROS?
Apparently, Tyrion thought it would be a better idea to appeal to Cersei’s conscience?…Jesus Tyrion. She had no conscience.
Dany’s advisors were great at telling her what NOT to do, but rarely ever gave her solid advice on what she SHOULD do. That’s one of the aspects that annoyed me in the last two seasons. Could someone give this woman a good idea for a change please?
Oh well.
Mr Derp,
Yea, Jon did absolutely nothing to try and make it work with Dany and the Northerners. He pretty much let her fend for herself. I thought she was his queen?
Now that you mention it, Jon wasn’t really that much of a Northerner. He’d been raised as an outsider in Winterfell (like his counterpart, Theon Greyjoy) and then gone to The Wall, spending almost all of his time outside the Seven Kingdoms. He really didn’t know The North all that well, and so we’ll never know what advice he would have given Dany about it — had he actually tried to give her any.
Apparently, Tyrion thought it would be a better idea to appeal to Cersei’s conscience?…Jesus Tyrion. She had no conscience.
He was trying to save the Lannisters. Problem being that (a) Cersei, having jammed herself into a hopeless situation, refused all offers of ways out, and (b) Jaime wouldn’t leave her. Tyrion’s efforts to save two people who didn’t want to be saved thus produced (1) farce, as he seemed seriously to believe a one-handed man and an unathletic woman were going to row a boat across the Narrow Sea (!), and (2) the destruction of King’s Landing.
Dany’s advisors were great at telling her what NOT to do, but rarely ever gave her solid advice on what she SHOULD do. That’s one of the aspects that annoyed me in the last two seasons. Could someone give this woman a good idea for a change please?
Thank you! They consistently let her down, didn’t they? The only one who might’ve had valuable knowledge of Westeros was Barristan, but he’d died in Meereen. Jorah was an outcast from a rock on the far side of the continent, and Tyrion knew little of relevance beyond his own family, and, as already mentioned above, he failed completely to understand them when it counted most. Tyrion’s poor performance as her Hand explains many of Dany’s bad decisions, including, in part, her final decision to burn Kings’ Landing.
I think there were certain things done to grease the plot wheels. The Northern lords present at the Great Hall meeting never actually interact w/ Dany or discuss her in s8. Or even refer to her in conversations of their own. The Northern lords send Dany and Jon a few scowls, unload all their fury onto Jon in the GH scene and then they’re just kind of populating the rest of the Winterfell scenes when needed without any lines. I believe Jon cautions Dany that the Northerners don’t much like outsiders — but of course, they don’t seem to much like him either. Five episodes after declaring him king, they’re ready to overthrow Jon for Sansa simply for going down south to get help against a zombie apocalypse coming for them all while Sansa says they’re very kind (???) but Jon is doing what he thinks is right. And had the wight hunt been revealed, the Northerners would have found out how the Night King got a dragon and got an expressway in and… well, yikes. Yet the writers needed everyone on the same side, fighting together, to wrap up the NK and Long Night storyline by 8×03 in this compressed window (and I think that’s ultimately the reason for the wight hunt as well — also, how does Jon survive a plunge into a freezing lake and then surviving in icy wet clothes in -40 temperatures and then riding in those same clothes on a horse for who knows how long…? But he needed to survive to the end per a plot point so plot grease). I had thought the Northerners may revise their opinion of Dany and soften a bit on her after seeing her for themselves be true to her word and fight with all she had against the Night King but no such luck.
There are other instances like this as well and I think it was due to time issues and to stir up drama: Sansa announces she didn’t plan for Dany’s armies and dragons but in 7×02, Jon said he was going down south in hopes of getting their help so they could survive the Long Night. Dany says she came North because she loves Jon and calling it “Jon’s war”, making her look impractical and wholly emotionally driven per the Mad Queen Plot. But in 7×06 and 7×07, Dany comes North because she realizes the threat the Night King poses to the realm and the realm she wants to rule. Also, the Night King killed her dragon. She tells Jon, “You have to see it to know. Now I know.” In 7×07, she recognizes this as a war she must fight as well. Tyrion presenting a siege as the more “humane” option. He knows a siege isn’t humane — he’s seen what a starving city looks like. Acting like Dany can’t use fire on the Red Keep or she’s a monster. Tyrion used wildfire in the Battle of Blackwater. Attacking the Red Keep is the quickest way to take the city — true, not great for optics but neither is a siege. Nobody can take a city gently.
And had Tyrion and Varys given Dany the advice to start a PR campaign, Dany would probably not have lost nearly has much with Tyrion’s repeated failing plans and fewer reasons to drive her to the edge.
And Bran — he was written out for all of season 5 and he is chosen king because he won Best Story. Because there isn’t a great reason for anyone to choose Bran as their king, I think they had to cobble something like this together because there just isn’t a great in-story explanation for why independence seeking Dorne and the Iron Islands elect some boy they’ve never met and a Northerner at that. Or — really — anyone else to choose Bran. Even Bran’s own sister objects.
But I’d again call this “plot grease” — contrivances to reach the predetermined endpoints (Dark Dany, drama, King Bran, etc.) Honestly, I’m not damning D&D for this — GRRM kind of left them floundering — and if it worked for you, great! But I think these contrivances were primarily done to speed things along to predetermined plot points.
Jai,
Joking aside, the reason I noticed that stuff in Brienne’s scene was because I remembered a much earlier scene depicting Tywin quietly writing a letter while Cersei was ranting at him (I think she was complaining about Tywin not taking her as seriously as he takes her brothers because she’s a woman). The scene was beautifully shot and included close-ups of Tywin carefully sprinkling charcoal on the parchment to dry the ink.
I’m not certain it was a production gaffe, and I can think of several reasons why it may have been intentional:
– Brienne was not the person of letters that Tywin certainly was, and her mistake would show this;
– There’s a much earlier scene where Joffrey mocks Jaime, saying no one has recorded Jaime’s great deeds. Brienne tries to record them, but her inexperience makes the result less perfect than it could be, just as Jaime was faulted his whole life (even by Brienne) as a less-than-perfect knight;
– And, as we read, Brienne’s account takes a few liberties with Jaime’s story as we saw it on screen. Fudging his story, smudging the ink. 😀
Mr Derp,
”For the life of me I still can’t figure out why NONE of her advisors or herself ever thought about a P.R. campaign in Westeros prior to invading it. If they wanted the common people to rise up for Dany or get the support of the other Houses then they should’ve tried appealing to them. She already used this tactic in Meereen with great success. WHY DID THEY NOT TRY THIS IN WESTEROS?”
Ah, yes! The Kinvara PR Campaign. Good question why Team Dany didn’t conduct a pre-invasion PR campaign.
Because the other side sure did. I thought Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” propaganda speech was well-written and well-delivered; and as it turned out, Cersei’s warnings about Dany and her foreign savages proved to prescient.
Unless Dany’s heroics at the Frozen Lake were broadcast to the populous (which seemed doubtful), all the folks down south would know is that Dany incinerated POWs, was bringing foreign invaders to their shores, and was going to lay siege to their capitol city.
(And they were supposed to spontaneously revolt against Cersei and lovingly embrace the Dragon Queen because… ???)
Adrianacandle,
”And Bran — he was written out for all of season 5 and he is chosen king because he won Best Story.”
Didn’t the Citadel Maesters laugh off that story as “a crippled boy talking to magic birds”?
How then did Bran win Best Story a season later? It’s not like he singlehandedly saved humanity when all seemed lost…
When I was little, they would give everyone trophies even if they did crappy — like I often did in gym. Bowling. I didn’t even use my voice in choir and relied on lip singing. I was only in choir because we got to go to Prince’s Island in June of every school year if we were part of choir and we got to miss a whole day of school!
But I still got a choir trophy even though I literally didn’t sing a note.
I view Bran’s win of Best Story like that. GRRM is going to make Bran king so D&D had to give Bran the trophy for some BS reason 🙂 Just like Mrs Blilea had to give Adrianacandle a choir trophy.
(1) Best story! Hahaha! Still a funny joke after all these years.
(2) And yes, Bran’s story in GOT draws on the basic elements in the creation of a shaman in Tungusic/North Asian traditions.
(3) Brienne and that book – establishing herself as the stupidest dumped woman in the kingdom. Low self-esteem lady.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I’m pretty sure it’s just artistic license. I don’t believe for one second that Brienne, a high born lady would not know how to write and not smudge the ink. Especially not Jaime’s entry in a priceless document, that would be very odd
Adrianacandle,
Adrianacandle’s choir participation trophy story is way better than Bran the Broken’s iron trophy story.
Well, I initially thought it to be snow as well and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was initially scripted that way. Although I remember theories about it being ash instead of snow emerging almost immediately although most people thought it would be because Cersei would blow up King’s Landing with wildfire rather than surrendering (remember, by the end of S6, pretty much everyone thought Cerse became the Mad Queen a.k.a new Aerys but it then proved not to be true with S7 in terms of her being really “mad”).
My initial (snow) interpretation back in 2012 was that by the time Dany would want to claim the Iron Throne, there wouldn’t be any Iron Throne in first place because White Walkers would have destroyed KL at that point (although now by knowing how WW are depicted on TV, it’s obvious to me that them reaching King’s Landing is impossible scenario for TV at least unless that would mean over half of Westeros population already being destoryed and reanimated). The whole vision really made me think she doesn’t get to rule and that she likely dies at the end of the story (hence reuniting with Drogo). I even considered her dying in childbirth due to Mirri’s novel prophecy (which was omitted on TV).
But however I spin it now, I’m sure the writers must have known something about Dany already at this point. GRRM did confirm in those interviews above that they were already discussing plots beyond published novels and considering Benioff and Weiss said that they got to know “the details of Dany’s downfall” in 2013, it makes me think they must have known about the downfall itself from even earlier. Even GRRM makes it sound up there that it makes perfect sense to me that the showrunners wanted to know at least some endpoints and directions when they decided to start making S1.
I actually had no idea till now that GRRM only knew about broad strokes regarding his ending by the time GoT started filming. Makes more sense to me now why is he so struggling with TWOW because I fully consider a possibility he still doesn’t have everything figured out. In my eyes, he does confirm that he discussed the ending/material from unpublished books with showrunners… I remmeber a lot of stuff regarding this circulating around by the time S1 aired, way before 2013 and their sitdown. After all, the showrunners must have already known something considering they already decided to bring Sansa to Winterfell in AFFC/ADWD part of the story by the time they were making S2.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I don’t know if that’s really confirmation though, especially considering GRRM didn’t have everything figured out and we don’t know what these key factors were that he spoke of or the “some information” GRRM supplied D&D with circa 2010/11. From the quotes you posted, he said:
We also don’t know which parts D&D adhered to per GRRM’s vision and which parts they modded or transformed due to adaptational differences.
Well, that does seem to be something D&D went kind of rogue with considering their statements here:
And GRRM commented with this:
Adrianacandle,
I suppose if the change (Sansa swapped with Jane P) had worked for more GoT viewers who were already familiar with the books it would have seemed quite a brave thing to do. I guess book Sansa will (hopefully) become the ‘smart’ person during her stay in the Vale. I’ve said before that the way I dealt with the changes was to think of the post-season 4 part of GoT, the show, was to consider it as two versions of a story – like the story of Tristan and Iseult has many different versions. I didn’t HATE the change but I realise it fell flat for many viewers. I’m not wholly* an apologist for B&W by the way but I think some of the rancidity and loathing they have had to put up with goes beyond the pale. I’ve said it before (and I hadn’t listened/read the books then) that “Talisa” jarred with me when first watching season 2, not that I dislike Oona Chaplin** as an actress, far from it, but the idea of a woman who was in a strange continent and to some extent on her own speaking smart-alecky to a king (Robb) jarred with me. I didn’t think Jeyne Westerling was an awful character though I didn’t realise there had been a change till I became familiar with ‘A Clash of Kings’.
* Though as I’ve mentioned before I do cut them some slack because GRRM hadn’t finished the novels.
** I always want to type Geraldine Chaplin, who of course is Oona’s mother and featured in ‘Dr Zhivago’ as the doctor’s wife though not the love of his life.
Dame of Mercia,
I think my own personal issues with Sansa’s storyline being merged with Jeyne Poole’s isn’t so much the rape but the motivations for this change (wanting to expand Sansa’s role because they enjoy the character and actress so much and opting to include a storyline D&D liked but swapping out the characters simply because the audience is more invested in/familiar with one character over another like characters are interchangeable). It didn’t seem so much character or plot motivated but more sensationalistic, for drama, and to give Sophie Turner acting opportunities. The storyline in the books is brutal but there’s a particular importance to Jeyne Poole impersonating Arya and what that does to other characters and other storylines. Yet, these impacts didn’t exist in the show because, for one, Sansa and Arya aren’t interchangeable and have different relationships to different characters. Also, D&D had opted to adapt most of these impacts out.
Another reason is that I think shoehorning Sansa into this role led to some characterization and plot problems that I saw, which I elaborated more on upthread. However, for the sake of trying not to repeat debates within the same thread and to avoid the dreaded KotV stuff, I’ll leave that alone in this post 🙂
Oh, I get that! And I agree. I think civil criticism of their writing and adaptational choices is perfectly fine but for some subsects of the fandom — especially now since primarily the most upset, the most devoted, the most passionate, or the most extreme of the fandom is left — it gets intensely personal against D&D and attacks who they are as people. That stuff isn’t warranted.
Adrianacandle,
“David and Dan know some of that too”
He doesn’t use any word “probably” here so it means they certainly discussed at least some parts and that Benioff and Weiss weren’t kept in the dark till 2013. I know it was a thing circling around in 2011 that GRRM “told the ending” to Benioff and Weiss, I well remember seeing it written more than once even on one Slovenian blogger’s site, only I didn’t know that GRRM only knew broad strokes of his own ending by that time, especially considering his statements that now he has ADWD out, TWOW and the final novel will be much quicker to write.
I do wonder though if 2011 release of ADWD was part of the reason why the writers decided to rewrite Sansa’s story for S5. I think they must have decided quite early on that AFFC/ADWD would have to be heavily modified for TV adaptation. I was actually worried myself when I was re-reading the novels for first time shortly before and during S2 air and noticed the change in “storytelling” from first three novels to fourth novel and consequently the change in my enjoyment…. I just felt that AFFC/ADWD won’t work on TV if they’re left as they are, especially in contrast to first three novels.
Some off-note, I kind of do feel that Bran was probably the major character GRRM revealed the least about to Benioff and Weiss during those various sitdowns… even GRRM himself said Bran is the hardest character to write so maybe he’s one of those characters he doesn’t really have the journey mapped out. I feel it even more because overall, Benioff and Weiss tried hard to not have major characters absent and more than often increased the screentime for them. Sansa would have in total of three scenes in entire S3 for example if they only copied the books, Robb and Jaime only one scene each in S2, Tywin barely appears at all in S2, Dany certainly wouldn’t appear in 8 episodes every season etc. So their decision to have Bran off-screen for entirety of S5 is a bit unusual and it makes me think that either they lacked info on how to include him into the story, or something was really off with book-to-screen. I remember that the actor playing Bran initially said he was in S5 but later, he changed the statement that the writers decided to not feature him at all in S5. So it seems scripts got changed at one point.
Dame of Mercia,
I may be one of the few but I actually like the change of bringing Sansa to Winterfell, compared to her three chapters in AFFC. As for why, there are 12 of my brainstorming points in one of my comments slightly above what I love about this change. Ironically, Sansa had way more screentime in S5 than she had in any season before and even in previous seasons, her screentime was increased for most of the time compared to the novels.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I never disputed that GRRM told them some information. I was pointing to that he told them some information, it doesn’t sound like he told them everything at this point, and there’s also that he didn’t have everything figured out. He says he told D&D a few key factors. We just don’t know what he shared with D&D pre-2013. And we don’t know everything that D&D know then or now. We don’t have the full scope of their adaptational choices because there are still unpublished books we may never see to compare and contrast. I think it’s fine to speculate but we’re missing a large, large amount of information.
Per D&D’s statements, that doesn’t seem to be the case and I’m not sure why it would be. They wanted to significantly expand Sansa’s role, not simplify it from a more complex book counterpart. They do seem to have some idea of what GRRM had planned and didn’t think it was big enough for Sansa.
All adaptations have to undergo some modifications because these are ultimately different mediums and there’s a far more limited amount of time to do everything when doing television and movies. Books can go on forever and ever. TV has a limited amount of hours and human limitations.
However, that doesn’t seem to be their reasoning for changing Sansa’s storyline — quite the opposite. They didn’t like that Sansa didn’t play as big a role as they wanted, they especially liked the character of Sansa, Sophie Turner’s work, and it sounds like they wanted to showcase Sophie Turner in an expanded role.
AFFC/ADWD do involve some pretty complex storylines and I’m not against adaptation distillation. It’s often very necessary because of the limitations TV poses. Even GRRM points to the challenges of converting from book to television — he’s done it himself and he knows the restrictions of each. But I wouldn’t call the change in Sansa’s storyline a case of adaptational distillation.
Well, I recall GRRM had said Bran was particularly challenging because he’s an 8-year old boy. But we can only speculate what GRRM and D&D shared. We have very little info on that.
I don’t think expanding a character’s storyline for the sake of giving them more screentime is a great motivation and in that, it can feel contrived. I know you like the changes they made to Sansa’s post-s4 storyline and I appreciate that. For me, I have significant problems with this modification.
They simplified Jon and Dany’s ADWD storylines greatly, as well as Dorne’s, and expanded Sansa’s. I don’t have a problem with simplification in and of itself — as I said before, it’s often necessary in adaptation but I think some of the choices D&D made led to plot problems.
I’m not sure about that because I don’t have all the facts but I do think, especially with all the adaptational changes and significantly toning down of the magical/fantastic elements of the book storylines in general (and Bran’s book storyline involves many of these elements), GRRM would be getting to King Bran differently, as well as to some of these other plot points.
I don’t know. It’s almost feels like if they don’t then said Dragon Queen will burn them all. What do you think?
Perhaps Dany would’ve had a better chance of taking KL with minimal casualties had she forced them out by blasting Cyndi Lauper music outside the city walls all day and night.
In all seriousness, I don’t think the civilians had any reason to risk their lives replacing one dictator for another. As Jorah once told Dany, “The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,” Ser Jorah told her. “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.”
However, if Dany was determined to not only rule over them, but be loved by them, then she obviously should’ve done something to win them over before invading. I just figured that was common sense.
Jenny,
I don’t believe for one second that Brienne, a high born lady would not know how to write and not smudge the ink.
I’m guessing the “ladylike” parts of her upbringing survived in her memory about as well as did Arya’s. 😉 Each had more important trainings to remember.
Especially not Jaime’s entry in a priceless document, that would be very odd.
I believe Jaime’s entry would have been the first she made in that book, and perhaps the first formal thing she had written in a very long time. With him already dead, committing his ‘great deeds’ to writing before they faded from memory would have been important to her. Her oversight at the end could have been completely innocent…
… or maybe not. She had loved him, and he had left her, to throw away his life with the woman he truly loved. Maybe some part of her, not necessarily conscious, wanted to smear the tributary ink she’d just written, as her final comment upon his life.
Mr Derp,
”However, if Dany was determined to not only rule over them, but be loved by them, then she obviously should’ve done something to win them over before invading. I just figured that was common sense.”
She could’ve airlifted the food she intercepted in the loot train attack.
Oh wait… 🔥
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”I’m guessing the “ladylike” parts of her upbringing survived in her memory about as well as did Arya’s. 😉 Each had more important trainings to remember.”
Yeah, I suspect Brienne had as much interest in calligraphy as Arya had for embroidery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uazzYl5brJg
at 0:00 – 0:45
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I don’t think it needs an explanation, you are free to draw your own conclusion of course, but sometimes the answer is simply ‘it’s a TV show’. Brienne would never smudge that book, she slowly and carefully writes the entry and reverently touches the page (specifically not the ink) before she closes the book. It’s her final goodbye to he man she loved. No oversight, never.
I don’t think writing is a particularly ladylike pursuit either, every child of a certain status is taught to write. She would have written to Sansa and her father at some point
Mr Derp,
”I don’t know. It’s almost feels like if they don’t then said Dragon Queen will burn them all. What do you think?”
I thought her “join my side or fry” ultimatum to her POWs in S7e5 was harsh. At least those Lannister soldiers were given a choice. The KL civilians weren’t. They were punished for not loving a foreign invader. Surrender wasn’t enough. (I guess?)
”Perhaps Dany would’ve had a better chance of taking KL with minimal casualties had she forced them out by blasting Cyndi Lauper music outside the city walls all day and night.”
You mean, all through the night?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW8qxUitG-Q
🌃
It could be interpreted in a few ways, snow/ash, others etc. But in the end I think you are right about this part. She would never rule and die at the end, D&D knew that for certain too. Some finer details may have changed over time but it was a growing living thing.
It’s interesting that you mention Cersei being the possible Mad Queen, I do believe that it is heading that way in the book. The woman is clearly a narcissist to begin with, but she is unravelling quickly and drinking heavily. Talk about someone with nobody to reign her in. She was practically aroused by that wildfire, to the point that even Jaime was disturbed by her. Two Mad Queen’s…. interesting direction GRRM lol. Nobody is fit to rule let’s be honest
Jenny,
Brienne would never smudge that book, she slowly and carefully writes the entry and reverently touches the page (specifically not the ink) before she closes the book. It’s her final goodbye to he man she loved. No oversight, never.
Not consciously, as I mentioned. Jaime’s callous abandonment of her could well have left some resentment, and if she suppressed it from her conscious mind, it could manifest itself by an unconscious act, such as slamming the book closed.
I don’t think writing is a particularly ladylike pursuit either, every child of a certain status is taught to write.
Yes, but she would have been taught to write specifically because she was to become “a lady in a castle.” (Indeed, we saw the Lady of Winterfell, Sansa Stark, sitting at a desk with papers.) Intentionally setting that training aside, to focus on sword and horse, would have been part of her rejection of her unwanted fate. Only much later in life, when she attained the pinnacle of her ambition, would she have needed to write formally again, and she simply forgot this long-ago aspect of her schooling the first time she sat down to write in that book.
I don’t think it needs an explanation, you are free to draw your own conclusion of course, but sometimes the answer is simply ‘it’s a TV show’.
“But if GoT fans didn’t nitpick, we’d have nothing to argue about. And then what would we do, hmm? Hmmmm? 😉”
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
She rejected it because it rejected her first, she tried to be a lady and was mocked. She felt insufficient and was ashamed, so she turned to the sword. She would have married a lord and lived in a castle, but he died, the other suitors treated her badly. She is not Arya. She left because she couldn’t stand disappointing her father. I see no evidence that she completely ignored her Septa’s teachings, she spends enough time thinking about them in the books and she was only away from home for a year or 2
Could you imagine the juxtaposition of “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” playing in the background while Dany torched KL?
Jenny,
I agree completely, Brianne tried to fulfill her role as The Maid of Tarth, but it rejected her. In the show, she says nothing about work with pen or quill, and if one season equates to one year (with S7 and S8 combined into a final year), then she hadn’t been home for (at least) the better part of a decade. That’s plenty of time to mislay the finer points of writing, especially considering what she endured.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Eh, it’s pretty tenuous to suggest Brienne forgot how to write. IMO, that’s a bit of a stretch. She seemed to be in pretty full control of her faculties at the end. It’s easy to forget a lot of things, but, IMO, some things are so basic and fundamental that they’re harder to forget, such as how to read, write, etc….
I think Jenny has it right. “It’s just a t.v. show” is probably the most accurate answer to why Brienne didn’t make a point to not smudge what she wrote. I doubt it’s any deeper than that. For whatever reason, D&D didn’t feel the need to be as detailed here as they were previously.
Mr Derp,
I didn’t claim she “forgot how to write.” I speculated she neglected one final point of writing on parchment, after many years of not having written on parchment. That does not seem like a big stretch to me, but YMMV.
If you prefer your version of “she mislay the finer points of writing” that’s cool, but you’re insinuating that she forgot how to properly write.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
This has got me wondering about the TL, she was 19 when she was introduced in Clash. Let’s say she left home at 18 and joined Renly’s camp. In the show she was maybe in her 30’s? She was 20/21 in AFFC, so away from home for maybe 3 years. Those first few books don’t cover a massive time span, the first book probably covers the longest because of Dany’s pregnancy. Is somebody more knowledgeable about this?
Mr Derp,
That and I think it’s symbolic, she was literally closing the book on that chapter of her life. It didn’t really need to be pin point accurate, a bit of artistic licence never hurt, and it might have taken away from the moment if we had to sit there an wait for the ink to dry lol
Jenny,
Yes, I doubt D&D were concerned with the minutiae of making sure the ink was dry in that scene. I guess the question is, should they have been?
I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, who cares, right? So they didn’t have Brienne specifically make sure the ink was dry. Is it really that necessary? Shouldn’t the scene be more about the symbolism of the act rather than the act itself? Do we really need to be THIS nerdy about it?
On the other hand, paying attention to detail was one of the aspects that I loved about GoT. It was one of the characteristics that separated GoT from other shows at the time, but the show felt much more like a typical brainless blockbuster towards the end. The lack of attention to detail was a symptom of this. I mean, a Starbucks cup made it into the final edit somehow.
Mr Derp,
If you prefer your version of “she mislay the finer points of writing” that’s cool, but you’re insinuating that she forgot how to properly write.
That would be a strange thing to insinuate, given that the scene shows Brienne writing. What I actually wrote was, “I speculated she neglected one final point of writing on parchment, after many years of not having written on parchment.” That’s a very long way from ‘she forgot how to properly write,’ which are your words, not mine.
Jenny,
That and I think it’s symbolic, she was literally closing the book on that chapter of her life.
Agreed, and the script makes that point as well. Immediately after Brienne finishes Jaime’s entry, the script says:
“Brienne takes a moment to think about a man she both hated and loved, often at the same time. Then she collects herself, her duty done. She has somewhere important to be. She closes The White Book.”
She’s closed the book, and moved on. The past is written, and maybe the ink is dry. 🙂
Mr Derp,
I can’t argue with that, they could have shown her doing a cursory sprinkle just to satisfy the more detail orientated members of the audience. Honestly most of my problems with the season happen in Episode 4, which also happens to be the infamous coffee cup episode. I will not get into the Euron of it all, never again! lol
Mr Derp,
”Yes, I doubt D&D were concerned with the minutiae of making sure the ink was dry in that scene. I guess the question is, should they have been?”
Of course not. They were devoting their creative energies to the intricacies of Tyrion rearranging chairs.
• “A Cursory Sprinkle”: Good name for a Sixpence None the Richer cover band.
• On the subject of S8e4:
Question though: In a scene I liked, Sandor, joined by Arya, left the WF festivities early to ride to KL. Didn’t Dany’s armies beat them to KL? If so, how?
Your carefully chosen words were “She mislay the finer points of writing”.
“Forgetting how to properly write” in the GoT world is not limited to the physical act of writing the words. You realize this, yes? It also involves taking care of what you wrote, so it can be legible in perpetuity, hence it’s basically the same thing. It’s certainly not the “very long way away” you’re claiming.
I think we’re arguing over minutiae at this point.
Sandor and Arya probably spent a lot of time stopping at an Inn or two to collect some chickens.
Mr Derp,
“I think we’re arguing over minutiae at this point.”
Not really. You keep harping on this point in service of your larger complaints about how the series ended. You want Brienne’s actions to be the result of sloppy, inattentive oversight by D&D. I’ve given several different in-universe reasons, each one of which alone would suffice to explain her actions. That you keep switching from one of my possible explanations to another, misquoting or taking quotes out of context as you go, shows you have an agenda beyond merely discussing the scene.
When there is a need for serious archiving of records, the Maesters do it. (We saw Ebrose assign Tarly the task of re-copying records from decaying books.) Given the generally low level of culture on Westeros, most of the previous White Books, if any, may be unintelligible garbage by now, for all we know.
This is a very common tactic that the season 8 police uses around here anytime there’s a criticism or a conversation that isn’t sycophantic over something in season 8 (no matter how miniscule).
I did say there might’ve been a lack of attention to detail, but I also said it could just as easily be a scene that was more symbolic than anything, so there wasn’t really a need to be as detailed in that instance. I think that’s a pretty fair assessment.
I “keep harping on this point” not out of any larger complaints regarding the show, but simply because your explanations sound more like grasping for straws than an actual explanation that can be taken seriously, so you only have yourself to blame.
This is a perfect example.
You can’t come up with stuff like this and not expect pushback.
#defund the season 8 police
Mr Derp,
[“Question though: In a scene I liked, Sandor, joined by Arya, left the WF festivities early to ride to KL. Didn’t Dany’s armies beat them to KL? If so, how?”]
”Sandor and Arya probably spent a lot of time stopping at an Inn or two to collect some chickens.”
Right. In the absence of any indication why two riders on horseback from WF with a considerable head start arrived in KL after armies that were still partying in WF when Sandor & Arya departed…
[Clip of S8e4 scene below]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnI0Nkcgi3U
… the gap is ripe for a Hound & Arya Road Show Redux spinoff. Who knows what adventures they had along the way in the time and distance between WF and KL?
Even if Sandor’s death is a fixed event in the universe, there’s still wiggle room for stuff to happen along the way.
“Wiggle room?”
“Yeah. Wiggle room.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2znUOjfwFE
(at 0:38 – 0:50)
Jai,
…and I don’t just mean the scene of Brienne slamming that heavy book shut while the ink was still wet, instantly smudging Jaime’s chapter…
As I had intended only a silly response to your comment, I failed to go back and watch the scene again before I commented on it. (Bad, bad Mage — no new pen for you, next name-day!) Here’s the scene again. Note one important detail, @ ~1:57 in the clip. She has just finished her account of Ser Jaime with the line, “Died protecting his Queen.” Then she puts her pen down, and runs the edge of her right thumb against the final characters in the line. They do not smudge.
Therefore, I now retract everything I wrote about this (non-existent) smudging, and all of my reasons why. I give my sincere apologies to everyone here, for not checking my source material before commenting.
(Now, with face ashen and head bowed, I go to empty all of the chamber-pots, a task I must diligently perform thrice-daily for at least the next week. Bad, bad Mage…)
This was already covered in this very thread back on July 15th. Brienne never touched the ink. Her hand comes close at 1:57, but never touches it. I even slowed the speed down to 0.25 to make sure.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”Bad, bad Mage — no new pen for you, next name-day!… Bad, bad Mage…”
Bad, bad Mage! Bad, naughty Mage!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMUnbNPCoSw
🏆
I’d like to send my best wishes to anyone from mainland Europe (or anywhere else undergoing extreme weather) who has suffered in the recent bad floods. At the moment it’s still hot in my part of the UK though of course that could change to thunderstorms/bad rain.
Perhaps the maesters had invented a new fast-drying ink the viewer never got to hear about.
Mr Derp,
Brienne never touched the ink.
The only point of her making that gesture was to check the ink. So, any gaffe here would have been on whether or not she actually succeeded in doing so. Everything else we mentioned, above, was based upon a false premise. She did know to check the ink, etc. (And, as that gesture was not in the script, either the actress or the directors added it in production –further proof they were detail-oriented to the last.)
I’ve written hundreds of pages with fountain pens on fine stationery. I have had plenty of experience, good and bad, with checking ink after writing, and to this viewer at least, her technique looked good. Again, YMMV.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
It’s really not a YMMV thing in this particular case though. It’s an objective fact that Brienne never touched the ink. It’s on video for all to see.
I think I’ve touched on the minutiae of this topic more than enough. I would like to get back to the important topics such as was Varys a merman?, was everyone a secret Targaryen?, were Daario and Jorah the same person?, was Bran the Night King?, etc.
If we can’t do that, then hopefully we can at least get back to the terrible musical interludes!
Jenny,
This has got me wondering about the TL, she was 19 when she was introduced in Clash. Let’s say she left home at 18 and joined Renly’s camp. In the show she was maybe in her 30’s?
It’s left vague in both show and books, perhaps because it’s not important to the story. For characters who exist in both media, most of them have been aged up considerably. (Jack Gleeson was 21 years old when he performed in Joffrey’s death scenes, but in the books, Joffrey is 13 when he dies.) So Brienne going from being a teenager to her early 30’s would not be outside of this practice. She’s skilled enough to defeat other fighters for a place on Renly’s Kingsguard, so she has to be talented and practiced enough for that.
Mr Derp,
It’s really not a YMMV thing in this particular case though. It’s an objective fact that Brienne never touched the ink. It’s on video for all to see.
The camera’s angle is from her right, and her right thumb rakes down the page. The viewer can decide either way. Checking the ink would use a light touch, so it might appear she didn’t touch the ink. Either way, she did try, so her lack of trying could not be the issue. If you want to see any of this as a flaw in the final season, then you will.
Oh, Lordy.
Mr Derp,
“…If we can’t do that, then hopefully we can at least get back to the terrible musical interludes!”
I thought you’d never ask. 🎶 😃
Mr Derp,
⚠️ Musical Interlude
Dedicated to Sansa Stark
S4e8, Sansa to LF (at 0:58):
“I know what you want.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csxai6vEoyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaYfca_zauY
The Waitresses (live, April 29, 1982)
Ten Bears,
Dear God, what have I done?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Lol, I actually don’t mind that song. It’s kind of a guilty pleasure.
Can we get Sophie Turner to do a music video to this song please? Preferably without Joe Jonas.
Mr Derp,
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Y’know, I really didn’t expect an offhand semi-joke that wasn’t even the main subject of my comment to snowball into “Michael and Fredo in The Godfather 2” 😉 (Ah, but which one of you is Fredo, I hear you ask. I’ll just leave that hanging…**)
I’ve gone over the Brienne video clip. Around 1:57, Brienne finishes writing, then pauses while thinking to herself (clearly considering if there’s anything further she can add), then the camera switches to a view of her fingers momentarily hovering *above* the page near her final sentences (she doesn’t touch the page), then her fingers slowly stroke the *blank* part of the page on the bottom right-hand-side (presumably a gesture of affection for Jaime), and then she immediately closes the heavy book.
So, no she wasn’t checking if the ink was dry, yes she probably would have smudged the chapter if this was real life and not a fictional TV show, no I don’t know if this was an oversight on D&D’s part or a very “GoT” cynical thing they deliberately sneaked in, and no there’s no need for a “Tensor walk of shame down KL” since the original premise was actually correct.
This thread is rapidly hurtling towards 900 comments. So, what do you think? 🙂
**”You broke my heart, Tensor…You broke my heart.” j/k
I’ve just finished re-watching season 7 and hardly noticed the Sansa/Arya plot line. I agree on first watch it kind of felt out of placed/forced and not one of the stronger plot lines. Overall season 7 reminds me a lot of Season 5 in that it’s largely positioning the pieces on the board for the pay offs in S8 and it suffers for that but quality in my view is still solid. The biggest issue overall I think is that it would have benefited with an additional episode to flush out some of the plot lines with more intimate character moments, this have helped Beyond the Wall too which in my view is one of the weakest of the while series.
Jai,
“Tensor walk of shame down KL” since the original premise was actually correct.
Whether it’s correct or not wasn’t the issue, it was me commenting on something without going back and checking it myself. Not Mage-worthy level of effort, that.
Y’know, I really didn’t expect an offhand semi-joke that wasn’t even the main subject of my comment…
I initially responded with humor as well. But if we want to discuss further, we can. That’s one of the great things about this site and these commenters, IMHO at least. Speaking of which…
… at approximately the one-minute mark in that scene, Brienne simply flips the page and continues writing on the other side, so if she smudged it, she did so well before she slammed the book closed. (Unless, as we have speculated, she was using special fast-drying ink…)
I just watched the Long Night again yesterday for the first time since 2019. I have to say I feel Theon’s redemption arc works really well within it. He dies protecting the family home and shows bravery for the family who raised him. Hard to say whether the books gothe same root but it’s plausible.
The episode as a whole though on re-watch is an absolute spectacle, easily the best battle within Game of Thrones. I recall at the time being disappointed by how many main characters survive but it’s similar to prior battles in that regard (Jon in BoB and Tyrion at Blackwater). The tension and fear our characters face is amazing and despite some minor issues the darkness (it is the long night after all) I honestly now feel that the criticism it got was well over the top.
Is there any evidence at all that Bran can see the future? I thought he had access to the past because he could see through the weirwood trees. So anything not near one he shouldn’t be able to see – although in the show they fudge that a bit.
I’m pretty sure Bran does not know he will be King at least when Hodor dies.
Yes, Bran can see glimpses of the future. One of the images he saw was Dany flying over KL, which didn’t happen yet at the time. Also, the “why do you think I came all this way” line suggests he knew how this would all play out. However, I think it was left pretty vague as to how much of the future Bran can see.
He also had a dream of Ned being killed in season 1 and saw the Sept explosion in season 6 well before Cersei put that plan into motion. He also foresaw the Greyjoys take over Winterfell in season 2.
I don’t think Bran needs Weirwood trees either. As far as I recall, there are no Weirwood trees in KL, so I hope for Bran’s sake he doesn’t need them to make his powers work.
I think it’s clear in the books that Bran doesn’t need a Weirwood tree at all, but I can’t say for sure. Miss Candle might have to confirm that one.
Miss Candle here! 🙂
I dug up the relevant passage from ADWD, Bran III:
And thus, Bran’s first book visions into the past begin 🙂 It seems Bran does need to slip into the tree’s “skin” but before that, he needs to eat a weirwood (coughjojencough) paste. It seems the paste and tree are needed to “activate” Bran but his ability is in his blood.
Reminds me of trips with weed. I had some of my best artistic revelations thanks to the leaf.
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for digging that up!
I think there’s also a passage where Bloodraven tells Bran that in time he will be able to “see beyond the trees”, but I can’t recall for sure.
Mr Derp,
You’re right!
Ah the vision, I remember discussing it with a friend at the time and we both felt it was Snow and reference to Jon sitting on the throne i.e. that she will desire it but ultimately Jon will sit there. It obviously turned out Jon was the rightful heir rather than Dany but he would never take the crown either.
Jon Snowed,
Speaking of the Long Night, I saw a comment from D&D yesterday. Apparently they considered having the Hound or Brienne kill the NK. How do you guys think that would have gone over? I suspect that people would have been ok with the Hound doing it, but i’m glad Brienne stayed well away from that ‘controversy’. They would have had to separate Brienne and Jaime during the battle, but that might have been ok since it was apparently Gwen’s idea to have them fight together in the battle. They could have been separated the whole time and she somehow gets the kill.
Jenny,
Honestly, it would’ve felt pretty random if Sandor or Brienne killed the NK.
At least with Arya, there was the “blue eyes” thing and the God of Death connection to have it make sense.
I’m trying to imagine how it would’ve worked with Sandor or Brienne killing the NK without feeling like it came out of left field or being reduced to some obnoxious “yaaaas queen” thing.
Mr Derp,
When I read it, I just envisioned them throwing darts at a bunch of pictures lol. They always knew it wouldn’t be Jon but they weren’t always sure about Arya. The uncertainty makes me wonder about Arya’s book ending, without that climax, I wonder where she is going. My guess is that she kills Stoneheart in the end. Which was obviously not in the show. Brienne would have been very random, they already gave her Stannis (I don’t believe she will kill him in the books either) this would have been a lot. Sandor would have been random too, I have no idea where his character is going, he is another who I believe gets a different end in the book. Just an fyi, I hate his show ending, dying in fire? No
Okay, I’ve been away for a week, visiting my girlfriend in Bosnia again (my CoVID vaccine finally paid off as it really eased my travel) and I have a lot to catch up now!
In a way I really wish D&D wouldn’t make comments like that as it just invites criticism. For me it would make little sense that Brienne would do it and from an old interview we know that GRRM told them that the Hound is returning but he didn’t have a plan for him at that point in the remaining books. So it just makes it feel like D&D are totally making things up within the story.
At the time it aired I was disappointed that Jon didn’t take out the night king however Arya at least makes sense given her skills and story up to that point.
I am the same in that I actually don’t mind they moved Sansa forward bringing her to Winterfell and not keeping her in the Vale. From what I’ve read in the books that plot line was going to be exciting TV and I feel the backlash is largely driven by the horrible actions Ramsay threw upon her but it would never have worked if it had been Jeyne Poole as the TV audience had no idea who she was.
Jon Snowed,
Yeah, I agree with you there. I’m not sure when they said it, it just popped up on my TL, they mentioned the Hound back in 2020. Cleganebowl was probably the biggest example of fan service in S8. I don’t think it’s happening in the books at all, D&D were free to do whatever they wanted with him, and people were asking for Cleganebowl for years. Brienne would have been so random, i’m glad it wasn’t her. I thought it should have been Jon as well, I still think that, but I wasn’t mad, Arya made sense at least and they needed some climactic moment for her character. Sansa got her coronation, Jon went on to kill Dany and Bran became King. If Arya didn’t kill the NK, I don’t know what they would have done with her.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
This just keeps getting worse! Tsk tsk, Brienne…:)
Jenny,
That’s interesting. It implies GRRM hasn’t told them how (or if) the NK will die in the books. As Adriana has previously mentioned (I’m taking her word for it, since I haven’t read the books yet), the concept of the NK is quite different in the books. I think we may have seen glimpses of the original premise in some of GoT’s earlier seasons — the NK’s surprisingly gentle treatment of kidnapped human babies made me wonder if GRRM’s intention is that the NK is not actually a villain in the story. A few years ago GRRM said that humans are the real monsters in ASOIAF, in obvious contrast to LOTR and other fantasy tropes.
As for GoT and the Long Night episode, a better alternative to the Hound or book-smudging Brienne killing the NK may have been Dany doing it — or, even better, both Dany and Jon simultaneously attacking and killing him — and in both situations, Jon subsequently receiving most of the glory, which would have made Dany even more disgruntled and resentful towards Westeros’s “ungrateful” people.
Jai,
iirc, there is no NK in the book, not even a leader. It’s possible that a NK of sorts will appear in the last books, because I do think there will be some communication between the Others and the living. Perhaps a negotiation. There was a Brother of the Night’s Watch who married an Other I think, i’m sure that has to come back into play at some point. He was called the Night’s King. It makes sense to give the enemy a face on TV, the concept of a ‘mother ship’ is a show invention as well. I don’t think GRRM told them an awful lot about the Others tbh, D&D had to do a lot of that leg work themselves, down to giving them a reason for wanting to kill Bran. Bran in the books is so much more complicated and is probably the character with the most development left to complete, very shady things going on with him North of the Wall.
GRRM has said himself that his ending will be mostly the same, for the major characters at least (I still think that Jaime and Cersei’s endings will be different and I will die on that hill lol, they are both goners though). But this is where the biggest differences will be.
Jai,
”…. made me wonder if GRRM’s intention is that the NK is not actually a villain in the story. A few years ago GRRM said that humans are the real monsters in ASOIAF, in obvious contrast to LOTR and other fantasy tropes.”
That’s been my ultra-tinfoil theory all along: The WWs/Others were the victims, not the villains.
(Hi 🕯!)
Semi Off Topic
For Bran fans, if any –
On July 30, 2021 the U.S. Postal Service will be issuing “Raven Story” stamps:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfzwlMFr6G7Elv4AHT_85b3LwdeBicL2oV3g&usqp=CAU
Because after all, Bran has “the best story.” 🙄
❤️🔥
• I really like your idea for Sophie Turner to do a music video to “I Know What Boys Like”! [Link to 1982 music video + copy of previously posted link to live version reproduced below under spoiler coding.]
• As “in distress/under duress” Sansa Stark, Sophie Turner didn’t really have many opportunities to show her effervescent, charming personality. In real life she’s a hoot, e.g., goofing around with Maisie Williams and singing rap songs on talk shows. I would love to see her hamming it up in a performance of that 80’s “guilty pleasure” song.
• I wouldn’t mind a callback to Game of Thrones
during Sophie’s video, specifically at 2:38 of the song in the Waitresses’ music video when lead singer Patty Donahue calls out “Sucker!” and at 2:45 of the live performance (”You sucker!”).
At that juncture, Sophie could intersperse a clip of Sansa & Littlefinger from GoT S7e7, e.g.:
– Sansa: “How do you answer these charges…Lord Baelish.”
[You sucker!]
Or…
– Sansa: “Thank you for all your many lessons. I’ll never forget them.”
LF: “Sansa! I…”
(Arya slices his neck)
[Sucker!]
Links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsneH0mOq-0
at 2:38 “Sucker!”
• 4/29/1982 live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaYfca_zauY
at 2:45 “You sucker!”