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Apologies for the tardiness my Lords and Ladies! A man stayed up late partying with the Starks and found himself in bed with a Knight. No, wait! That was someone else.
The Unsullied recap is here and yours for the taking. Do with it as you wish but beware… there’s sadness at the front, amusement in the middle, dissention in the back and tragedy in the end.
I’m not even sure what to say about this episode, so let’s just get into the recap. We’ll ponder the meaning of life later.
The Death Toll
As we could see, the number of “insignificant” deaths were catastrophic. Of course, they weren’t insignificant to the people in Winterfell, especially Dany and Sansa who almost made a grown man cry just from standing over Jorah and Theon respectively. Good Lord.. the emotion in their faces. That was a fine job of acting on both Sophie and Emilia’s part.
And “insignificant” my ass. Jorah F’ing Mormont? Theon F’ing Greyjoy? Edd? Lyanna? Flaming Lightsaber Man?
I thought Jon’s eulogy was fantastically well-written and delivered. Whether he wanted it or not, he is truly the leader in the North. And I’ll miss you, Beric Dondarrion. You WERE significant to me.
Candlelight Dinner
Jon not knowing what to say to Dany…. Epic relationship plight.
Gendry goes strolling looking for Arya when he is stopped by Dany and officially named Baratheon and granted Storm’s End, much to the delight of the Northerners. Funny how everyone was looking at each other fearful of what Dany was about to say when she called Gendry out. Nice move Dan! And a well-deserved honor for Gendry. Now, all he needs is someone to share it with.
Semi-interesting dialogue between Tyrion and Davos. See quotes below. Will we hear any more about the Lord of Light?
Ain’t No Party Like a Winterfell Party ‘Cause a Winterfell Party Don’t Stop
Bran and Tyrion exchange pleasantries where Tyrion exclaims that he envies Bran for not really wanting anything. Bran tells him he pretty much lives in the past. Bran is quick to get his aid to push him away, but at least he is semi-acting like a human again.
Crazy-ass fraternity brother Tormund tries to peer-pressure Jon into funneling some wine and then toasts are made. Another good one for Dany as she calls out Arya for being the hero! Dany making friends!
Meanwhile, the famous Tyrion “lie or drink” drinking game is underway with Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion and Pod. All is well with it until Tyrion guesses that Brienne is a virgin. She excuses herself with Jaime closely behind and Tormund comes to the harsh realization that making giant babies with Brienne is not in his future.
Then things go sour for Dany as well as she realizes that regardless of what she does, she may never be as beloved as Jon. Varys takes notice.
The Hound literally runs off a flirting girl by barking at her (LOL) and is then approached by Sansa. Clegane states that none of the bad things that happened to Sansa would have taken place if she had left KL with him. She responds that if those bad things hadn’t happened, she would’ve stayed a little bird all of her life.
My favorite part of the final season may very well end up being the reunions and the what-ifs. And yes, the Hound still has feelings for the Little Bird.
Gendry finally catches up with Arya who is celebrating her latest kill with target practice. He explains what just happened and asks her to be the Lady of Storm’s End. Arya tells Gendry that she is not a lady, never has been and that it’s not her. This is about what I expected, but still hate it for Gendry. He almost hit the trifecta… a name, a castle, and a wife. But as Meatloaf says, two outta three ain’t bad.
In better news, Brienne is no longer a virgin and Jaime/Brienne shippers rejoiced! At least, temporarily.
Finally, Dany would tell Jon that she has never been looked at favorably the way he is since her arrival in Westeros and asks him never to tell his family or anyone else about his true heritage. She seems to realize that if word ever got out, the Lords would likely run with his claim and that she would have no shot at ever ruling the Seven Kingdoms.
And she is right. However, asking Jon to lie to his family is a pretty unreasonable request. Jon tries to comfort Dany by making her believe that they can all live together. And Dany agrees, so long as he does not tell Sansa and Arya the truth.
Did she really believe that Jon would keep it a secret from his sisters, especially when his brother already knows?
And is Jaime lying in bed with Brienne thinking about Cersei? Probably.
Strategically Strategizing by Forming a Strategy
The minds regroup to count their losses and assess what lies ahead. And Sansa and Dany still don’t like each other.
Sansa makes the point that everyone is exhausted and may do better with rest. I can’t disagree with her. But for some reason, Dany takes it as the North not reciprocating. Except, that’s not what she was saying, Dany!
Look… I don’t know why exactly they are painting this unpleasant characterization of Dany but based on fan feedback both from a local standpoint and social media level, it is working. There’s just not much faith left to go around for Dany, and at times this episode focused on it.
Regardless, Jon steps up to back Dany which prompts a family meeting. When Arya says, “we’re the last of the Starks,” Jon spills the beans. A wise man once said that when the beans are spilled, they’re hard to get back in the can (I made that shit up). But the sisters swear to keep the secret anyway.
Ser Bronn of the How the Fuck Did You Get in Here with a Crossbow
If you watched episode one, or just the previews, you knew this was coming. My question is, how the hell did Bronn just walk into a room within a castle within walls with guards with two of the leaders of the free world with a crossbow and threaten to kill them?
Although I don’t like the way it went down, Bronn had a point about cutthroats… kill a few hundred, they make you a lord. Kill a few thousand and they make you a king. Tyrion promises Highgarden to Bronn to save he and Jaime’s asses. But Bronn is going to kill someone “significant” before he dies.
The Stark and the Hound, Pt. 2
Clegane and Arya meet up on their way out of town and discuss their plans including not ever coming back to the North. The Hound states that he has unfinished business. Let the CleganeBowl Pre-Game ceremonies commence. Arya’s got something on her mind too.
The Beans Sworn to be Kept in the Can Falls Out
A wise man once said that if you swear to keep beans in a can that have already fallen out, you must reseal the can with whatever the equivalency of glue is in Westeros to keep them in (I made that shit up too). Sansa spills them with Tyrion setting up a mess of beans on the floor, reoccurring issues between Jon and Dany, and that potential betrayal by Tyrion that many have been speculating about for over a year.
Side note: “Rhaegal needs to heal.” – Jon. Had Dany taken Sansa’s advice regarding rest and recuperation, would Rhaegal still be alive? Just asking.
Tormund decides to take the rest of the Free Folk back North which is somewhat surprising. I assumed he would be riding to help Jon finish the war. But even more surprising was the decision to send Ghost with Tormund. Huh??
And Sam and Gilly are preggers! Congrats Sam! You know where to put it too!
The Beans Spill on a Boat
A wise man once said that spilling a can of beans on a boat is like pissing into the sea: once it gets in the water, everyone is swimming in it (made that shit up as well). Now that Tyrion has told Varys, how long is it until everyone knows? As Varys states, it’s not a secret anymore. They’re now informational beans.
And then Varys says it: “I’m worried about her state of mind.” What happened next won’t help…
ScorpionStone/The Fall of Rhaegal
You saw it, so no need to write it out. It seems the only issue with the scene is how Dany could not see the ships waiting to attack while flying above; why she wouldn’t be more careful with the dragons as they are her most important assets; and why they couldn’t foresee Cersei strategically waiting to ambush them upon her return to Dragonstone after the NK was defeated.
The first didn’t bother me as the ships seemed hidden between two mountains. But it did bother Ozzette immensely.
The one that got me was Dany and company not recalling how strategic Cersei was in Season 7 which should have made them be more cautious upon their return to Dragonstone.
At the end of melee, Missandei is missing, kidnapped by Euron and taken back to Cersei in KL. Upon his return, Cersei informs Euron that she is pregnant with their child.
The Spider and the Dragon
Varys tells Dany that she is making a mistake to attack. He explains that Cersei is bringing the people into the Red Keep on purpose so that she will have to kill thousands of innocent people to take KL. Dany agrees to offer Cersei terms so that the people can see who the real enemy is. That’s good. But then she says that they need to know who to blame when the sky falls down upon them. That’s bad.
Tyrion still believes in his queen (or at least tries to convince himself he does) but Varys does not. Exactly what this means we don’t know. But Varys is about to make a move. Will Tyrion follow?
Jaime learns what happened with the ambush and that Cersei is about to be attacked. He then decides to leave either to go try and protect her or to kill her himself. I’m not sure which. But regardless, it breaks Brienne’s heart which was incredibly hard to watch.
The End of the City?
Dany, Drogon, Tyrion, Varys, Worm and the Unsullied stand at the gate of KL with Missandei held captive above with Cersei, Euron and the Mountain. For a moment, it seemed Tyrion’s words to Cersei were going to be effective as she teared up thinking about her children and her unborn child. But Cersei is who she is and obviously feels like she has the upper hand (which she does). Missandei exclaims, “Dracarys” and is beheaded by the Mountain.
The shit is about to get real. Ugly.
And just in case you were wondering, Rhaegal and Missandei’s deaths were both incredibly SIGNIFICANT.
Episode 804 Personal Awards
Favorite Action Sequence: Rhaegal getting scorpioned was as surprising as it was dramatic, regardless of how it was set up. We’re down to one dragon, and I don’t like Drogon’s chances.
Favorite Quotes:
“You can still smell the burning bodies and that’s where your head is at?” -Hound
“See.. you’re not the only one who’s clever.” -Dany
“Lord of Light. We play his game for him. We fight his war and win, and then he fucks off. -Davos
“We may have defeated them, but we still have us to contend with.” – Tyrion
“And after all that, this fucker comes North takes her from me.” – Broken-hearted Tormund
“If it’s a boy, we want to name him Jon.” “I hope it’s a girl.”
“So much for the Breaker of Chains.” -Cersei
“I will act in their interest no matter the personal cost.” -Varys
Favorite Sequence: Varys and Tyrion dialogue, Sansa and the Hound, the Starks at the tree.
The “Ow, That Shit Hurts Award” goes to: Rhaegal through the neck.
Jackass Award: Bronn, although he is a sell sword, and funny as hell.
Overall Thoughts: I liked it, and then I didn’t like it so much, and then I loved it, and then I questioned it, and then I loved it again. And that’s what you get when you have four episodes in one. Not heeding Sansa’s suggestion that everyone rest came back to bite Dany including Qyburn even mentioning how battle-weary they were to Tyrion. I’ve always been a fan of the dialogue-heavy eps just to try and figure everything out. This one left plenty of room for speculation, and I’m already ready for next week.
What say you, Lords and Ladies? Speak up.
Until next week, hang out and stay awhile. Invite an Unsullied to join us. And may there always be peace in your realm. –Oz
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**SPOILER NOTE: The Management of this fine site would like to remind you that spoilers (book or leak) are not allowed in Unsullied posts. This includes spoilers covered by code or otherwise. Personally, I appreciate feedback from Sullied and Unsullied alike, so long as they do not include any type of hinting or conversation related to the written verse. However, spoiler coded comments do tend to lead to further Sullied conversation and for that reason, we ask that you please refrain from posting any SPOILERY content whatsoever in Unsullied posts. Thank you for the coop. -Oz
I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!!!
OK, gonna go read now.
” as Meatloaf says, two outta three ain’t bad”
that and the beans spilling all over the damn place had me laughing. I needed a laugh after this heavy, heavy ending.
Bronn, Tyrion and Jaime were in an Inn, not inside the walls of wintefell. Anyway, lovely recap Ser Oz. I really enjoyed this episode greatly the second viewing way more than when i first watched it.
I don’t think we’re done with the Lord of Light, whatever Davos says. Also: I’m devastated this week, far more than I was last week. My heart is breaking for Daenerys, who made immense sacrifices only to be rebuffed by the people she helped save; for Arya and the Hound, who seem to have accepted death and are riding towards it together; for Gendry, who was just told “no” by the girl who once said, “I can be your family”; for Brienne, who really should have gone for Tormund; and for Grey Worm, who I think might turn out to be the valonqar.
I don’t understand wtf is up with Sansa. I understand why she undertook the difficult task of addressing Northern independence, but I don’t understand her continued contempt for Daenerys after having seen the AotD and what it took to defeat it. I’m also shocked by Arya claiming that she doesn’t need allies, given that she wouldn’t have lived long enough to kill the NK if three of the people formerly on her list hadn’t a) saved her ass or b) clarified her mission for her.
I’ve never been as deeply steeped in a fictional world as I am in this one—I went to Con last year and cosplayed, the first time I’ve ever done such a thing—and I’ve loved much about this season, but I must confess: I’m terrified that D&D aren’t going to stick the landing. These last two seasons have felt rushed and overly simplified, and there have been far too many lapses in logic in the writing for me to simply write off. I’m awaiting the last two episodes with bated breath, but I’m also anxious.
Well I always know where to turn to make me laugh after the emotional episode last night! Oz, like always, you found humor in the midst of sadness and despair for me. I especially like the beans stuff!😂 And I loved the Meatloaf reference! Loved your recap, as always! I don’t quite know how to feel about the episode, it’s like this is a different show to me now. I guess I never really thought about all the political stuff if/when they defeated the NK? It makes me sad to see all the distrust and side taking going on. But that is what would happen in real life I suppose. That is the first episode ever that I don’t think I will watch again. Now to see what is next and I must say I am fearful of what it may be!😔
I did like the episode. The character interaction was the strength of it. The strategy and tactics of the Good Guys were just as weak as they were in Ep.3.
If it were not for story-telling time constraints, the Good Guys could have taken a page out of the Night King’s playbook and worked their way down Westeros to Kings Landing, recruiting everyone they could and “liberating” every town along the way. The Freys had already been eliminated. Dany and Drogon burned up most of the Lannister army. The Golden Company is holed up in Kings Landing. Dorn has new leadership. Point being that they could have taken their time, worked their way down to Kings Landing, resting, regrouping, and reloading all along the way.
That all being said. I was still was well entertained and enjoy the show as it is.
Thanks!
On Bronn and the Castle – there was an establishing outside shot of a small building, I thought the Lannisters were drinking in an Inn?
Thanks Oz, that was good reading!
I like your image of beans scattering all over the floor because I feel like the possible options for how this story could end are all over the place too. Sure, some options are more likely than others but twists happen as sure as gravity helps the beans spill! But it is that anticipation and surprise (good and bad) that keeps us entertained.
I have very mixed feeling about this episode. Putting it mildly…
Questions/Issues:
Wasn’t it awfully convenient that the one person Euron managed to take from the water was Missandei?
If Varys is such an expert at gathering intelligence info, why the HELL didn’t he know that Euron’s fleet had sailed?
Doesn’t Cersei’s emotional manipulation of Dany remind anyone of Ramsey Bolton’s emotional manipulation of Jon just before the BotB?
I’m praying we get 2 final episodes that don’t make me regret my extreme emotional investment in this show…
So far I’ll give season 8 a provisional B-
Beans, beans, they spill for a lark
The more they spill, the worse for Stark
The worse for Stark, the worse we feel
So hold the beans and never squeal!
Direwolf Lvr,
Clever!
Reminds me of a saying: until you speak, you own your words, once you speak them, your words own you. Or something like that.
What do you mean that Dany didn’t head Sansa’s point? Do you know how much time passed between scenes? Jon seemed to suggest a compromise (time not specified) which all seemed to agree on.
It’s amazing what people can assume if they don’t think that time passes between scenes. Just sayin’…
Not that working with someone who is actively working on undermining you is much of a deal in the first place. Especially when that person undoes a promise at first opportunity. (a promise made in the holy Godswood of all places) I dearly hope that Sansa eventually gets a taste of her own medicine in the next two episodes. But I don’t expect so, this is GOT after all. For good and bad! 🙂
Ummm. Are we really gonna question the resourcefulness of the man who said “gimme 10 good men and I’ll impregnate the bitch. ” when speaking of infiltrating the Eyrie???
I am sad.
The story is going the predictable and really terrible path. Here I was hoping for a clever twist to save us from this madness. I am sad…
Ser Tane-Lee Confused,
Being that Qyburn flipped Varys little birds to his side with candy, I assumed any info coming to him from KL would be limited and unreliable.
And yes to the Cersei emotional manipulation part. My first though is that she’s doing what Ramsey did to Jon with Rickon. Eliciting and emotional but irrational response
from Dany to get her to look like the mad queen Cersei has been “warning” people about and say “told ya so” when Dany burns Cersei’s prop audience.
It’s a cliche now, but with all it’s narrative faults this show this episode entertains me more than almost anything else I see on TV.
“The Hound literally runs off a flirting girl by barking at her (LOL) and is then approached by Sansa. Clegane states that none of the bad things that happened to Sansa would have taken place if she had left KL with him. She responds that if those bad things hadn’t happened, she would’ve stayed a little bird all of her life.”
________
Excuse me if I’m over sensitive: I thought this exchange was horrible. What kind of message is it that being tormented, framed for murder, sold to the family that killed yours, and subjected to brutal, repeated rape by a psycho is some kind of female empowerment mechanism?
Nothing wrong with being a “little bird” as a pre-teen and maturing naturally, in a safe, secure environment. That’s what would’ve happened if she’d left KL with Sandor when he offered.
In a weird way, this reminds me of a tee shirt I once saw someone wearing: “Hard drugs made me what I am today.”
Ok then lay out some detailed predictions for us?
I am feeling the exact same way for the same reasons. (Though I still haven’t given up on my tinfoil theory that Jon will be the valonqar, every other one of my theories has been shot to hell so who knows what will happen.)
PS I must’ve missed Arya saying she/they didn’t need allies. What did she say and when did she say this?
So will we ever see Pod again?
Are we done with Bran?
Ten Bears,
Seems like the Stark default reply lately. Bran pretty much says the same thing about all of his past circumstances making him who he is today. Instead of seeing themselves as victims, they see themselves as survivors and now with more wisdom for better or worse.
Boojam,
I am so with you. You can totally see where the show runners started taking over and losing all essence of what the book and the strength of the characters he has made. They have made all the females into useless sidelines. They destroyed Brianne and Danny, Made Sansa a bitch, what women says the past interactions with horrid men makes her the strong women she is today? “Without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest, I would have stayed a little bird all my life,” she says. Worst writing ever!
Ten Bears,
It was in the Godswood, the “last of the Starks” scene. They were talking about family, how Dany was not, and Jon said something like if we don’t go outside of our family how are we going to have any allies. To which Arya said she (they?) didn’t need any.
Ten Bears,
I’ve only seen the episode once (tbh, for the first time ever I’m not sure I want to watch again), and I’m pretty sure that was her response to Jon in the godswood. He says something to the effect of “If you only trust the people you grew up with, you’ll never be able to make allies,” and her response is something akin to “I don’t need allies.”
I’m sure other viewers can clarify or correct me.
Agreed with you on the Sansa/Sandor interaction. After all this time, I don’t think he would have been that rude or hurtful to her, and while it’s true that she wouldn’t have become quite so hardened and strong without LF and Ramsay, crediting them with her maturity is a bit much.
I’m really worried about the ending. Not because it doesn’t jibe with my headcanon (I don’t really have one, and I’m not good at tinfoil), but because so much of what’s happened in the last two seasons has been illogical or struck me as false to the characters. There’s still a lot that I love, but it’s very hit-and-miss now.
Having recently rewatched the whole thing, I’m still bothered by the amount of gratuitous female nudity in the first two seasons, but the writing was far stronger. As I opined in another post a few days ago, I think D&D did a far better job of adaptation, trimming away the existing source material, than they’re doing of completing the story, fleshing out the skeleton that GRRM provided them.
I don’t want to sound ungrateful for the incredible gifts all these people have bestowed on us for the last eight or nine years. GoT has meant a lot to me, for many reasons I won’t bore you or others with (I wrote a little about them on Petra’s fandom post). But I’d be lying to myself if I didn’t admit that S7, despite its entertainment value, was a disappointment to me—and that S8 has been as well. There have been far too many plot holes and lapses in logic, and with only two episodes left there will be a lot left unaddressed. And that breaks my heart. We deserved better writing to conclude this incredible odyssey, and the characters—the ones we love and the ones we love to hate alike—deserved it as well.
/end sorrowful rant
I’m still going to eagerly watch this season through to the end, but agree the writing is becoming more difficult to justify.
Feeling now that GRRM was right that more seasons were needed to complete it properly. So many story lines quickly had to be cut short and meshed together. Generally I prefer film over book, especially with fantasy… and then of course with these particular well-loved characters. But, kind of thinking now that I’ll get into the books and enjoy GRRM’s way of properly maintaining the narrative, history and human motives and failings. He seemed so upset the show was ending and he’d not done the book, but it’s going to work out fine this way. He’ll get to correct errors in judgment once the show got its huge budget to cram everything into one banging ending.
I still loved episode 4. So many heart pulls. I’m rooting for Dany more than before, and Tyrion’s loyalty. We’ll see….
And then Arya promptly decided to leave WF for good. I expect the magic characters to exit but I was surpised when she said so.
Wolfish,
Yes their adaptation was far stronger. Although they added scenes like Booby & Cersei & tywin arya taht were excellent.
But given the lack of a book they must be really working hard. I am thinking they needed to hire a bigger writing team. Some of their current writers like Bryan Cogman really do an excellent job.
Mango,
If they had expanded the writing team, maybe things would have been different. That is a missed moment, with the work increase all the department increased except the writers. Basically the same number over 10 years while the work increased.
Wolfish,
I thought season 8 would have been the best. The team has worked really hard and put in the effort. They had the endgame mapped out, and choose the end it now. As payment for the emotional investment, you want to see the series end high. But sadly that is not gonna happen.
For the few that have been discussing what Arya said when the Starks were talking, she didn’t say she didn’t need any allies, she said she didn’t need many allies.
Jon has always been about trying to bring everyone together and helping each other whether they want to or not. He’ll try either way and his view can be summed up as the more the merrier. Arya and Sansa are much more practical and see alliances as a worthwhile endeavour only when to them it makes sense, and only once you already trust the other side.
Ser Tane-Lee Confused,
During the attack on the ship, Grey Worm ordered Missandei to get into the skiff. Euron captured her because she was in a small boat.
Couldn’t Jon give ghost a hug or a pat at least? Poor, loyal doggo, deserved better.
Solar,
That reminds me of something else I couldn’t quite shake. During that scene Arya seemed to still be the most passionate about family, even giving the episode its title. Yet later, when off with the Hound she says she doesn’t plan on ever coming back North either. I can see her on a mission to finish her list in KL, maybe travel about, but never returning? I don’t think it was because she expected to die but rather that she didn’t ever want to return. Why would that be, if she feels so strongly about her family? Did the news about Jon not being her true brother leave her empty? We don’t know because they didn’t show us what had to be a huge emotional gut-wrenching event for her. Just seems strange that just when it appeared she was getting back her humanity, and reconnecting with everyone she loves, she’s lost it again. Maybe I’m just reading it all wrong.
Part of my problem is I don’t even know who to root for now.
Jon? Craigslist ad: “Northern warrior rehoming 8 year old direwolf because I got a new job, and apartments in Kings Landing don’t allow pets.”
Dany? “The throne is mine. Mine mine mine MINE! I am the Last Dragon! You just pretend to be a bastard, okay? We can still hook up, right?”
Sansa? “I can keep a secret, I swear. Can I glare at your girlfriend some more?”
Arya? “I missed my family so and saved the world, but hey, I’m going to break this nice boy’s heart so I can go kill more people.”
Bran? “Someone said I’d be more human this season but I prefer being a database of knowledge that doesn’t tell anyone anything important anymore.”
Jaime? “I thought I might be a nice guy but oops! Turns out that’s not so fun. At least that big red-haired dude didn’t get the girl heh heh.”
Tyrion? “I used to be smart and witty but then I stopped drinking.”
Varys? “Flip, flop, flippity flop.”
Sam and Tormund? “Peace out, have fun fighting amongst yourselves for a useless throne. You all suck.”
Bronn? “I’m out too, but whichever side wins, I will get my castle or I’ll kill you.”
Hahaha – Very clever 😀
I know the: “Beans, beans are good for the heart – the more you eat, the more you fart” version, but yours is just as good 😛
Direwolf Lvr,
Yes, I would have loved to see their reactions to the news, which makes me hope they left it out for a reason.
As for Arya’s reaction, I think that more than thinking she is going on a suicide mission, she thinks that no matter what happens her family will always be apart from that point forward. Sansa is set as the Lady of Winterfell, Bran is barely human, and Jon, who was the closest to her is unlikely to ever be back at WF.
If he doesn’t die in the coming war he either becomes King or stays with Dany. But no matter what all outcomes for him point at him never coming North again.
So there is not much left for Arya there, but I do think she decided to go South not purely for her personal kill list, but as a means to protect Jon.
Wolfish,
I am loath to judge the show’s “writing” because I’m not qualified to render an opinion. I can’t imagine the pressures the showrunners were under, especially after passing the source material. All I can say is that from a viewer’s perspective, I have to agree with you that:
“…I’d be lying to myself if I didn’t admit that S7, despite its entertainment value, was a disappointment to me—and that S8 has been as well. There have been far too many plot holes and lapses in logic, and with only two episodes left there will be a lot left unaddressed. And that breaks my heart. We deserved better writing to conclude this incredible odyssey, and the characters—the ones we love and the ones we love to hate alike—deserved it as well.”
I keep harping on S4e7 because it had dmart, emotionally evocative dialogue and exposition that felt natural; characters’ motivations were embedded in their words, and their actions made sense – even their miscalculations.
I just got the feeling starting with Sansa’s concealment of KotV in S6 and continuing through the S7 Arya vs. Sansa vs. LF fiasco, that we were left trying to figure out why characters were behaving in inexplicable ways – filling in the blanks, so to speak.
This does NOT erase all of the memorable scenes and stellar episodes. It’s just that these gaps in logic seemed to increase as the “rush to the finish line” accelerated. I have a hard time accepting the NK “mothership”* vulnerability – after all, he was a showoff at the Hardhome dock, and could’ve sent his lieutenants after Bran if one lucky shot at NK with a DG arrow could pulverize the entire AotD. And I don’t know if we’ll ever learn why Bran’s survival was so important. (NK’s targeting Bran to erase “memory” of humanity still perplexes me, along with the silliness of the Bran Bait Plan.)
Despite or because of my tinfoiling, I have to believe there was supposed to be more to the WWs and 3ER than what we wound up seeing. I admit I thought I had a theory that explained it all – but that went up in smoke in one episode. (I loved that Arya killed NK with the dagger flip move, though I have no idea where she came from.)
My enjoyment of S8 is being tempered by what I see as a series of contrivances to undermine Dany. She sacrifices her armies to save WF and the North, and they treat her like sh*t? Her navies get ambushed three times? She follows all of these “clever” convoluted plans to avoid nuking the Red Keep, yet tens of thousands of soldiers (including conscripts) have perished? It’d be enough to drive anyone mad. It just doesn’t feel — right. Except for the Tarly burning, she can’t be faulted for listening to (in retrospect) bad advice.
And I don’t get the Sansa vs Dany enmity. Surely if Sansa was so “smart” she’d befriend the Dragon Queen, and not antagonize her. And Jon’s pretty much been neutered this season. For that matter, during the pre-season hype we were told Ghost would have a big role – but all he did was run next to soldiers in S8e3 or stand around in the background, and now he’s being sent off with Tormund – without even a goodbye hug from Jon.
I can’t shake the feeling that so much more was being set up throughout the first six seasons, but it was abridged or jettisoned.
I also can’t get behind the idea that Cersei has turned into some kind of military mastermind. All of her moves have paid off. [I won’t get started again on Euron – I think Clob, Mango or another commenter articulated his unconvincing streak of magical successes. And I detest the character even more than Lord Glover – and for me that’s saying a lot.]
Can the show nail the landing in the last two episodes? That’s a tall order. I will only say that if Arya resorts to the face-peeling trick I am immediately clicking off the TV and giving up.
* E.g., the plot device used in “Independence Day”, “The Edge of Tonorrow”, Starship Troopers”, and lots of other sci-fi flicks and shows: take out the alien queen or king, and all of his or his or her minions are deactivated.
It especially irked me because I really liked “The Edge of Tonorrow” (2014) starring Emily Blunt – and co-starring the actors who played Locke (Noah Taylor) and Dontos (Tony Wey) on GoT.
It felt like GoT resorted to this tired plot device out of nowhere in S7e6 – and all the mystery behind the WWs, CotF, and 3ER got jettisoned.
Ten Bears,
Yes, I agree that we can see the cracks as they try to land this thing. Let us hope we do not crash land but we are clearly straining here.
I think that a part of it is they have to ramp up the melodrama as well as wrap up the storylines for a number of fairly complex characters.
I am still enjoying it but alas, I can see the issues.
After rewatching the farewell scene, I’d like to believe that Tormund and Ghost will be making a reappearance. “You never know” says Tormund when Jon says “This is farewell then.” He loves his brother from another mother too much to sit this one out.
Ghost tearing up Euron would be a sweet “twist”, haha. Or Qyburn, for that matter. Either will do.
I watched the episode again tonight with my better half, she somehow had the nerve to go to bed midway through Sunday.
A few things that I just can’t shake after the rewatch…
Tyrion’s hair, get that dude to a Supercuts already..
Brienne the badass knight gets all snot nosed cryey when Jaime leaves? Wtf was that all about
The Rhaegal bolt scene. you’re telling me Jackass Sparrow can hit a moving target from 1,000+ yards away with 100% accuracy in 3 out of 3 shots ? What are the odds? I’d have a better chance of out sparring Arya with a bag of Starbucks duct taped to my dominant hand.
Anyway, I digress. Loved the episode but am just a bit put off by the glaring wtf moments.
What role will the GC play? As Varys implied, Aegons claim will soon be common news. I’m starting to think the only chance they have is dragon armor and the GC supporting team Targ
I’m sad that the character Missandei was sacrificed to the needs of plot through a horribly dramatic execution. The actor who played her all these years made viewers care about her character and think about her character’s point of view.
I know it didn’t hurt and that the actors were probably telling each other jokes before, during and after the execution so that they were relaxed enough to pretend to be experiencing what they were depicting. That’s actors. That’s their business, talent and deep personal drive to pretend and understand the art and science of pretending.
But still, it would have been just lovely for Missandei and Grey Work to go off to Naath (sic?) after the last war, live on the beach and live out their dream of happiness.
Jon and Dany could have visited with the kids, complained about middle age and wrestling with the meaning of life.
Jorah could have bought golf to Essos.
Sad about Rhaegel too. Lovely child of Dany. Adding to her sense of loss.
And, it would have been nice to see Jon say a proper goodbye to Ghost. He’s a Stark after all, half Northerner, and a beneficiary of so much love and loyalty from Ghost. I could never say goodbye to a dog of mine that way. It was like he was trying to forget he was a Stark and only answers to the name Aegon nowadays. Not the right tack to take if he wants to preserve his affections with Dany. It would be easier to love her and stay with her if he remained part Stark and a Northerner. Jon’s sheer honesty and values will get Dany over the hump that Jon has a better claim to the throne but that he wants to support her and her vision for a better world, and rule together.
Well, at least that’s the happy ending I’d like to see happen.
So the Lord of Light brought Jon back to life so he could finish his mission. What do you think that mission is?
I hope that after Jon has served his role he will not die but be allowed to retire to the North with Ghost and Tormund.
To hide from and yell at Undead Viserion while Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised brings the dawn.
A nice review Oz. I always look forward to your ‘extras’ at the end of your recap 😉
As for being the ‘Unsullied’ review (of which I’m one), I would have thought that would apply to all of us these days? If GRRM had completed the novels years ago it would be different matter? I believe his source material ran out around Season 5… when Jon Snow was killed by his NW brothers and was left to D&D to continue the story from that point? I presume with input from GRRM for key events from The Winds of Winter which still hasn’t been published.
I often see on this group posters complaining about the show. Saying that GRRM wouldn’t have done it that way or gone into more depth fleshing out the story, the characters and so forth. I’m sure that is true, but the show runners can’t sit around on their asses for years whilst George procrastinates on getting the novels finished! Likewise, it would have been impossible to make the show correct to ‘book canon’ in any case simply because of their size, the huge numbers of named characters, etc. If so, the show would have gone on for too many years and IMHO, 8 years with 73 episodes has been more than enough.
Whether I will decide to read the ASOIAF novels after the show finishes is debateable also. I can’t see the point of reading a book if its missing an ending? Even if ‘The Winds of Winter’ is nearing completion (or maybe even has been finished), there still the final ‘A Dream of Spring’ novel which has to be written.
The bottom line is the story both in the TV show and in books have to come to the same conclusion? It would be a mockery if the endings were different? OK, the events and paths taken by the characters will sure to be different, but the end result has to be the same?
My personal take is that no one will sit on the iron throne and rule the 7 kingdoms. The Red keep will be destroyed either by dragon or wild (green) fire. Dany saw the throne room was destroyed in the House of the Undying in Qarth when she was looking for her dragons that time. What looked like snow falling could well have been ash?
I reckon each area of Westeros will be divided up with their own Kings or Wardens governing over those regions? We’ll all know the oucome after Ep6 – So bring it on I say 🙂
About Sansa the way I see it at least, if you think about it Sansa has more first hand experience with power hungry people and rulers than anyone on the show, she has been a victim of it, has seen it face to face and has learn from it, now in one way or another “team Daenerys” has asked her what is the deal with her and she hasn’t answered and i don’t think she CAN, not with a bulletproof point and evidence other that… it’s her gut feeling, after joffrey, cersei, littlefinger and Ramsay she knows what someone so focused on power looks like and more important what they are willing to do to get it and keep it and there líes the problem, is not that she doesn’t see what Daenerys did for the North, but she knows what Daenerys could do if she is not happy with her control of the North (remember the tarly’s) and that makes Daenerys a threat
In the latest episode it’s like none of the characters learned a thing. Tyrion still being jerked around by Cersei? Come on! Loved the Craigslist ad😁
That question has me wondering if he ends up a tragic hero dead or alive.
Why the hell did he not even pat Ghost.
Otherwise this was a good episode. I’m not buying criticism about the naval battle. Euron is literally the best pirate in the world, of course he knows how to set up a stealth ambush. Other naval commanders in history have done the exact same thing, hiding in the right cove for the right moment.
It is questionable why nobody in Team Dany bothered to wonder if Cersei had booby trapped the whole place because of course she would. But Dany is actually very short on bona fide military commanders just now. Grey Worm is the only one she has left, and I don’t think the Unsullied have any prowess at sea. Strangely, the person Dany needs most right now might actually be Daario.
Ten Bears,
My enjoyment of S8 is being tempered by what I see as a series of contrivances to undermine Dany. She sacrifices her armies to save WF and the North, and they treat her like sh*t? Her navies get ambushed three times? She follows all of these “clever” convoluted plans to avoid nuking the Red Keep, yet tens of thousands of soldiers (including conscripts) have perished? It’d be enough to drive anyone mad. It just doesn’t feel — right. Except for the Tarly burning, she can’t be faulted for listening to (in retrospect) bad advice.
She has been listening to Tyrion and all of his plans are failing, she’s losing left , right and center. And Tyrion says she’s mad when she lashes out and shows frustration… If she’s mad, show me that she is mad, make her try to kill some one.. not just as a frustrated or desperate woman.. then again I guess they will show It in the next episode. Also, whats the point of having Varys, when the guy literally doesn’t get any important intell these days..?
Actually Sansa, didn’t mention any time frame for this. When Dany asks how much time do you propose, she says “as long as it takes” that’s not really an advice or counsel. It looks like a Diss. Here Sansa might seem right for the third person, and that’s what she has learnt, being disrespectful but being politically correct and making Jon/Dany ( or who ever else is incharge look weak- from Season6 till now)
Frokkie,
This woman says that. In my early twenties I was weaker, naive, and believed people were as honest as I was. Several traumatic experiences taught me to gather my strength, take control , and vow “never again”. I’m not alone in this.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
You could still root for Brienne. Or Davos or Pod or Gilly. 🙂
Northstar,
Yep. Tyrion and Jamie were in an inn outside Winterfell. You can see Winterfell in the background (far in the background) in the outside shot of the inn.
I think a big item was missed in this, at least for me. Missandei dies in chains. This broke my heart, I was aching for her. I wish she’d looked Cersei in the eye, yelled “Dracrys” and jumped to her own death, at least it would have been on her terms.
I respectfully disagree, because I am having the opposite problem with my other beloved book series/Premium TV Show. I am a huge fan of Outlander, both the book series by Diana Gabbeldon and the STARZ TV show. The first two seasons there were just a few writers, including show-runner Ronald D Moore. Moore has backed off in the past two years and they have added many, many writers. A lot of them are one and done–they write a script for one episode and are never heard from again. They don’t understand the characters, they are sloppy sometimes with the plot points, and the episodes they write become a mess! The actors, the production values, everything else is top notch and very close to Game of Thrones standards, except no dragons or direwolves. But, when they only had a tight-knit writers room, and the show-runner and series author were more involved, the series was much better. I can’t even imagine how badly a bunch of one-and-done writers would screw up our characters. Then again, the way they have turned my Dany into her mad daddy this year, maybe not. . .
It looks like the No Ghost Touching was due to CGI difficulties and working with the wolves. I think Ghost’s scenes were filmed separately here in Calgary.
David Nutter addresses the Ghost issue here:
Jack Bauer:
John Bradley:
Kristofer Hivju:
So it doesn’t seem like it has anything to do with Jon choosing Targaryen over Stark; it looks like it was purely budgetary 🙁
Ten Bears,
Excuse me if I’m over sensitive: I thought this exchange was horrible. What kind of message is it that being tormented, framed for murder, sold to the family that killed yours, and subjected to brutal, repeated rape by a psycho is some kind of female empowerment mechanism?
I so agree with you! I think (or hope) the writers were trying to convey that Sansa’s character and strength was such that she believes she not only survived the trauma but built on it – but the reality is that people who are traumatized, and that will include Sansa, don’t just “get over” being violated and betrayed. I was so angry when the writers had her raped by that Bolton; it was such an unnecessary and ugly plot device. I imagine that now, to maintain some level of consistency, Sansa (though apparently unaware that she has wounds from the trauma) will show them by over compensating in some way – such as, her excessive fear and distrust of Dany, who put everything she had into protecting WF.
@BranStark: Sansa didn’t say they should just wait “as long as it takes”. She said they should ask the officers how much time the soldiers would need to recover.
I have to say I agree with most of the posters here. Although, I’ll add that I am disappointed with where D&D are taking the show now that they do not have books to work off of. I mean… Is GRRM not there with them? Is he not part of the writing even if by some small degree?
I actually liked the last two seasons, and never felt the disappoint up until now. Why make Daenerys go mad in the last two ep? Why have Arya tell Gendry “I can be your family” only to tell him later that she doesn’t want to be with him? Why not have a heartfelt scene with Jon and Ghost!?!?
IDK guys. I’m sad.
Very nice recap! We are so lucky to have experienced this set of books and this fabulous series, so scrumptiously detailed. And the music, it’s genius! I’m going to miss this show very much.
One of the best things about the series is how flawed each character is. Just like real life! At this point, the only ones I’d invite for dinner are Brienne and Pod. Missandei, if her head weren’t detached.
The worst thing about the series is having the dragons and direwolves killed. I am crossing my fingers that Drogon is like a Komodo dragon and can self-impregnate. Or that a giant clutch of eggs is under WF.
Sansa is the worst. I hope this was her last episode. WORST! She has no credibility. None. Three seasons of contrived authority. Did I mention that she’s the WORST!!
Except maybe Cersei. Also the worst. She should have gone away 2-4 seasons ago.
Maybe both could be killed in the first two minutes of the next episode. Then we’d all enjoy the remaining 2:58 of episodes 5-6.
—– Rant mostly over —–
Does anyone think that Davis’ comments re LoL and Jon’s status of back from the dead may connect at the end?
There are some serious questions about Euron being able to see and being able to fire the required distance to hit Rhaegal yet being invisible to Dany, Drogon, and Rhaegal. However, I was able to look past that because the shock was so impactful. Definitely did not see dragon 2 dying. Now I’m curious if (1) Drogon will die soon; and (2) if the LoL could bring Rhaegal back.
Definitely expecting Arya no one to face swap in the next two episodes.
Lots of jet packs in this episode and next (e.g., dragon stone to KL, KL to dragon stone). But I’m ok with it. Have to move the story along to finish the series.
What was the point of the NK? What is the point of 3ER? If Bran goes away, that’s fine . But then it is even more pointless. Just a big ?
Maybe we will learn more re Mountain and what Qyburn did.
How does Cersei have money to pay GC? I thought Westeros broke. Maybe GC will switch sides if she renegs.
—– I said almost—–
Sansa is the antithesis of Lady Mormont. Boom roasted.
Seriously, the worst for three seasons in a row. (She was a fine character in seasons 1-5). Now, the worst.
E4 they clearly wanted us to ask that question – to note that Mel and Beric died when their purpose was served.
I doubt the LoL cares about politics, I.e. bringing down Cersei/Euron. Or who sits on the IT. Seems it has to be about Dany, perhaps restoring balance? Maybe the man who led the coalition to stop the “Ice” threat – who has ice & fire in his blood – now has to do the same for the “Fire” threat. Just thinking out loud here.
Despite E3, given Tormund’s words I still have a small fear of a fate worse than death for him…becoming the new NK.
“”When he sees YOU his heart will stop” – Sansa to Arya, S7E4
Johnny Utah,
All of this, I’m afraid…
Yeah, Jon is kind of whipped. Not so whipped that he won’t tell his sisters about his parentage but still pretty whipped. Whipped enough to make a good banana cream pie.
That scene with the war council and when Jon took Dany’s side against Sansa’s to prove his loyalty, it sort of reminded me of a husband trying hard to get in his wife’s good graces again:
Dany: I don’t like your sister. She’s going to make us go to Red Lobster!
Jon: She won’t!
Dany: She will! I’m allergic to Red Lobster!
[one hour later]
Sansa: You know, I’m kind of feeling like seafood.
Dany: I paid for the UV protected windows in your home. We’re going to Olive Garden.
Sansa: I get 50% off at Red Lobster!! You can get the-
Jon: WE’RE GOING TO OLIVE GARDEN, SANSA. See, Dany? We can live together!
Sansa and Arya: OLIVES ARE FOR LOSERS, JON. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?
😉
(I hate both seafood and olives and pasta can suck it.)
But on a serious note, if it comes to a choice between the realm and his love for Dany, I think Jon’s going to make the same choice he did with Ygritte and pick the realm. That’s going to be brutal for me.
Adrianacandle,
Like +1
Adrianacandle,
That’s where the nissa nissa prophecy comes into play, I believe.
If the writers decide to stick with that.
Johnny Utah,
😉!
Raenarys,
Yeah, that’s kind of been my fear all along. That Nissa Nissa will still happen but under different circumstances because obviously, the Long Night is over (or is it??? No, I think it is). I’m wondering if a version of Buffy killing Angel will happen, where she had to kill him to save the world (realm).
And then Sarah McLachlan’s Full of Grace will play…
But no, I think it’s super possible a version of Nissa Nissa might still happen, yeah.
Adrianacandle,
Wow! You took me all the way back with the BtVS reference 🙂 I dig it!
Yes, you may be right. Adding more writers has a downside of losing your characters. Not everyone is a Cogman. The main mechanism to control consistency with several writers is a story editor (?).
The question is really what is the best number/use of multiple writers. Too few means the story can go bad as enough options are not considered. Some options are subject to enough review and then deleted. Too many writers many means that too many options are considered and you lose control if the story editor cannot rein it in.
That scene still gets me!
Can you imagine Jon killing Dany at the same time Jaime is killing Cersei – all four die in the struggle. Then Sansa and Tyrion run the empire. (Yes, I know this would be overly dramatic! Nissa-Nissa and Nissa-Nissa – a double whopper!)
Mango,
Believe it or not, Tyrion is who I have my money on sitting on the IT on the end of it all…
Tyrion is not a bad bet!
I think that the throne will go to one of a small group of non-magic characters – Jaime, Tyrion or Sansa. I have Jaime (yep, you read right!) as favorite for the throne as I find him the most interesting character so I am keeping him as a personal quirk.
Oh god, then I’ll take a bus north of the Wall (Fort McMurray) and stay there to cry myself to death!! Dany, Jon, Jaime!… Well, Cersei I can deal with now after Missandei 😉
And didn’t John Bradley say something about the finale episode being like the Red Wedding? Well, f*ck!
Adrianacandle,
Oh no, did he!? Well seven hells… Now I don’t know what to expect. Which is, I suppose, what I want lol. I like surprise.
The finale or episode 5?
Raenarys,
I know!! 🙁 He sort of did and sort of didn’t but also sort of did 😭
Dee Stark,
I think he means the finale but I could be totally wrong. I’m getting used to be wrong these days ;;
Mango,
If Sansa takes the IT, there will be a class action lawsuit against HBO seeking refunds of all subscription fees.
Maybe Bronn foreshadowed his own ascendency!
hahhahaaa!
Lots of nice posts here – and many points I agree with.
I keep feeling that with some simple changes things would have worked so much better, and they aren’t changes that would cost money, only a few plot changes and maybe a few more minutes in running time.
The only thing that came natural from what we’ve seen so far was that, after all what happened Dany might lose her temper – she’s a fiery girl and I knew that eventually, if provoked to the max and without anyone to temper her, she might go on full dracarys mode. It’s been established that she wants that throne more than anything. That’s not bad in itself – it’s just a matter of how far she’ll go to get it and if her lower insticts will prevail, turning her into a shadow of what she was and what she could be
But generally, there’s the problem of characters acting out of character in some cases and the motives of others not justified.
For example, Sansa’s mistrust to Dany as a possible Queen – what did she see that others didn’t?
Dany didn’t show anything bad while at WF and on the contrary fought to protect everyone – something that Cercei (who Sansa knows very well), would never do. Even only for that she’d make a better Queen. Even if she thought Dany is power-hungry, that was not established in their relationship in the time they spend together at WF. And all that before she knows that Jon’s the true heir to the throne! It’s only Dany’s view of Sansa that has been established and justified (Sansa is clearly showing her mistrust and refusal to accept her either as Jon’s lover/wife, or as Queen) so one can understand why Dany doesn’t trust her. But not the other way around!
Another problem was Jaimie: the way he left and the reasoning he gave Brienne, was like he’s taking 10 steps behind in his own arc. Are we to believe that the only person he ever loved was Cercei and he’ll suddenly do anything to save her while he knew that Dany and Co were going for KL and Cercei would be punished for betraying them and DESPITE that, he had decided to stay in the North with Brienne?! So, what changed so suddenly after getting the news that dragon was shot and Missandei captured?
If his speech was only to make Brienne feel better in the long run (hey I’m an asshole so you’ll get over me soon), because he’s going in a mission to kill Cercei at the cost of his own life, that’s OK. But if not, that’s one anticlimatic arc story that doesn’t make sense.
I agree that Jon’s been neutered. I didn’t like the foreshadowning of him getting killed with all these goodbyes. Finger’s crossed, I hope he survives!
And the huge problem of Bran. No more visions? And why doesn’t anyone use his powers? He’s like this library that knows everyhing, that can tell them exactly what’s happening NOW everywhere in the world! They would have known about Euron and Cercei’s plans.
I have more questions about things than ever, and puzzled about many things. I hope they manage to finish the story in a satisfying and deserving way to the arcs and the story.
Every fan of every show ever during the final season, ‘yeah, it’s bad. It’s all bad. This season is the worst ever. It’s not even worth watching. I’ll still watch every episode several times over, and play Monday Morning quarterback with every character’s decision, but it’s terrible. When will I ever learn?’
Ok just testing how to post spoilers.
This is more actual filming info that I got off here rather than spoilers but I’ve covered it anyway.
Overreacting bit much? I think many would love that. At least it’s the GoT that we loved then, the one that we didn’t know what would happen.
I for once would praise them for it.
I enjoyed the episode. Thouigh the second half was somewhat rushed.
Man, I really wanna party at Winterfell! That was my favourite of the episode.
Didn’t really like that Jon letting go Ghost like that. I guess it symbolises Jon letting go of his Starkness, but it could’ve been handled better. Probably my biggest gripe this season. Though Ghost deserves some peace.
On Dany, I expected this to happen. She has a good heart and she does try to do good. But life can force someones hands. She lost Viserion, Rhaegal, Jorah and now Missandei.
I think ignoring Tyrions advice when they first met will come back and haunt her.
With Jaime, I don’t think it means he wants to go back to Cersei, actually quite the opposite. I think he only said those things to Brienne because he doesn’t want her to go with him. Like what Tyrion told Shae in season 4.
Overall I enjoyed the episode. I agree with you Oz, somehings I liked and somethings I didn’t like.
Great recap as always!
Lord Parramandas here. My full review will be posted on my designated forum thread but as for my short thougts, I loved this episode and was really positively surprised as I expected something more like episode 1 where there’s only build-up but nothing big happening. I’m glad I was wrong. I certainly didn’t see Rhaegal’s death incoming and Missandei’s capture and eventual death reminded me that there are more deaths to come. I have a feeling the last two episodes will be very dark in tone regarding the protagonists… I just don’t sense any “happy ending” regarding how the characters are now. But at same time, I’m really really intrigued. However it resolves, I know i’ll enjoy it no matter what the “fandom” says .
As for your review, Oz, it was an entertaining read for sure.
Also something I want to point out…. I love that Unsullied thread always retains the overall positive vibe towards the show.
I don’t know where to begin. I feel very similar to how you have stated that you feel. The North keeps claiming that the north remembers. but, if what has happened in the first 4 episodes since daenerys has arrived at winterfell is any real indication, then they don’t remember very bloody much. Because, nothing much ever seems to penetrate their thick skulls. To me it is pointless in saying “I remember!” If I never allowed anything to get into my head so that I could remember it. They just don’t seem to get it. That a woman that sailed to Westeros to claim the throne that her great ancestor created, had promises and pledges made to her by their king, and irrespective of their personal feelings on the matter, they are duty bound to uphold his honour. Their responsibility is to honour his pledges. Bottom line, they need to put on a smile and make her feel welcome, just like you do with any guest in your house.
One more thought.
Has there ever been a TV show with a better soundtrack? The music is sooooooo good in this show.
FOr me, the soundtrack only gets better and better every season. Even if a plot gets messy at times, soundtrack, epic visuals and the actors’ performances themselves are already a reason enough for me to love the episode.
Ghostgirl,
Oh dear, he’s doomed😉
A thought I’ve had is about the reconciliation of opposites. Mel kept going on about fire and ice having to be together. She may not have only been referring to the battle with the NK. She may have meant Jon and Dany joining together and being stronger for it in this final battle with Cersei. Jon could be the one to cool Dany’s worst impulses if he can resolve her insecurities about that stupid throne.
I’d call Jamie and Cersei the worst of what happens when the two together makes for an evil result. Though I think Jamie is a changed man who still loves someone who can’t love anyone else.
So, two pairs of opposites in a battle. Do we really have to think both will end up with the woman going bad?
Raenarys,
BTVS reference, was that the show with the premise that the tiny girl who would normally be the victim is subverted when it’s revealed that she is the hero?😉
The Wolves of Winter,
Sorry. I’m still struggling with what you can post on what and I didn’t really see it as a spoiler since the info I got came from this site. It isn’t book related or a leak. People were posting other theories so it wasn’t clear. I can’t delete it now. I think I got confused between threads as I’m new to this.
Sorry again.
LeoraRufus,
Ahh I see what you did there! Yep, it’s that very one! 😉
Ten Bears,
I agree with you Tenbears. I am not into this empowerment shit (if you need to empower yourself then you are quite simply not empowered. It is that simple.), but the inference is that she was proud to have come out of it and be the woman that she is. But then, I thought about it, and maybe she isn’t proud of the woman that she has become. maybe, just maybe, she was kind of claiming it as her excuse for why she is the cold hearted bitch that she feels that she is inside. That was the only logical conclusion that I could make of it. That she is making and excuse for herself, rather than empowering herself with her experience.
@ Ghostgirl
Its okay, it can be confusing. But I don’t think you’re allowed to post filming info either.
Someone mentioned the way he decided to leave the party when Tyrion started asking questions, and it reminded me of an interview with Isaac. Discussion came around to the way he could potentially impact things in the past – Isaac emphasized that Bran had really learned his lesson about the consequences (Hodor) and wouldn’t do that. That was with regard to the past, but maybe he feels the same about the present and future.
The show certainly hasn’t conveyed that well and in any case leads to other questions, but that would be somewhat of an explanation.
As for Jaime…self-loathing, and a fate that is inextricably linked with the person to whom he has been bonded since birth. Read the interviews…he didn’t leave with intent to kill her. I don’t think he’s necessarily trying to save her either, more like he can’t just walk away from it and pretend to start fresh; she is a part of him he can’t shake. He will go down with her.
I think it is Joanna Robinson from Vanity Fair who likened it to Theon jumping ship when Euron captured Yara…he couldn’t shake his past.
To clarify, there are “production spoilers” such as unauthorized photos. This site reports them but always notes “spoilers below” in those stories.
I have seen some people leaking those onto the comment threads following this episode though, and without spoiler coding. It’s easy to do when you have knowledge that “feels” common.
First time poster here. I have to compliment you on all the “wise man” “spilling beans” quotes-they had me laughing throughout-thank you!
My thoughts:
1) I don’t think Bronn confronts Jaime and Tyrion in Winterfell. The establishing shot before we enter the location shows that it’s probably a pub/inn in Wintertown?
2) Who is the new prince of Dorne? Does this not matter?
3) I was very upset after this episode. Upset over the deaths and the Jaime/Brienne departure, etc…but most, if not all of that was kind of cannon for the show and the characters. What I was most upset with was Jon dismissing Ghost the way he did-and not just because I’m a dog mom! It just didn’t feel true to the character and I don’t see it happening that way in future books. I just think it’s indicative of the rushed pace at the end.
I was in a dark place yesterday about the show, but I’m better today, thanks to some good comedy on posts like this one. I’m in it until the end and I hope that at the end of the series, D&D will prove me wrong about the mood I was in yesterday!
Lady MarMar,
What does not kill us makes us stronger. Trust me.
Because she has loved Jaime in secret for many years. She finally gets her heart’s desire, and for the first time in her life, is allowed to feel like a woman. Then, boom, Jaime is leaving her, and she’s certain that he’s going to die in KL and she’ll never see him again. That womanly part of her that she’s kept tucked down deep inside is heartbroken.
For me the only tv-shows that had better soundtrack are the shows that has music by Max Richter, GoT comes close second to him.
Pretty cool to think about those two pairs…for a brief moment I went with the happy thought that Dany/Jon could be the successful counterpoint to the Jamie/Cersei mess. Of course a segment of the fandom would go ballistic if Dany and Jon together (or even both separately) have anything vaguely resembling a “happy” ending, as if there is such a thing after 73 hours of death, destruction and deep trauma.
I do have another thought though…after saving the realm, and dying, the show leaves hints that Jon’s spirit lives on in Ghost in the north. With his pal Tormund 🙂
Side note…I was one of those extremely disappointed by the handling of Jon’s goodbye to Ghost…but I’m surprised people think Jon should have brought him with him. To probable death down in King’s Landing? No thanks. Letting him return to the north where he belongs is a gift of love. I do think we were supposed to get that it was like letting go a part of himself, but no direct interaction? They could have done better than that.
I am still not convinced about the choice to be done with the Walkers so soon and reserve the final episodes for Cersei’s smugness.
And I am disgusted by the turn Daenerys’ arc is taking. I mean, I never was a fangirl for Khaleesi, but still, so much ingratitude is making my skin crawl.
So, I did not like episode 4. But I keep my hopes up for the last two.
I do like this theory 🙂 As I’ve thought that when Jon was temporarily dead back in Season 6, he was actually in Ghost the whole time.
Lars,
I’m not that guy, but here goes…
Arya kills Dany, takes her face and declares Jon to be Aegon.
Johnny Utah,
Now that you’ve mentioned Rhaegal coming back from the dead, think about this: Davos said to Tyrion on this episode: “Lord of Light. We play his game for him. We fight his war and win, and then he fucks off.”
And what could possibly has surprised Euron so much in the teaser for the next episode, when he’s looking to the bright sky? I mean, he’s pretty familiar with Dany’s dragons, and he’s just slaughtered one not too long ago. He might be looking at Rhaegal in disbelief.
After devoting nearly 10 years of my life to this show, it finally dawned on me with Hodor’s final scenes, how much we don’t know, but every shot, every nuance counts. It’s what makes this show so good.
With that said, we have seen and heard quite a lot of Ghost in the past two episodes. I think Ghost will make up his own mind about where he lands, which would be by Jon’s side, regardless of where he is. Jon can be really thick sometimes. Does he think Ghost will just ‘stay,’ like a good doggie? Ghost may be smarter than Jon. I don’t think the showrunners would allot so much screen time to an incidental character.
While we’re on the subject of the animals (who are the only ones I really care about surviving), I hope upon hope that GRRM reads National Geographic and one of the dragons laid a few eggs somewhere on Dragonstone. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2009/01/07/when-the-heat-is-on-male-dragons-become-females/
Bigdjean,
I suppose there is a remote possibility that he’s watching Sansa jump off a cliff.
I don’t understand why anyone could NOT like this episode or would be in a bad mood about it!
It was absolutely amazing, very entertaining, had great dialogue and scenes that can be interpreted in two ways, such as Jaimie leaving Winterfell, Sansa revealing info to Tyrion, and Tyrion still believing in Dany. I think this is perfect television and the best series of all times!
I suspect the ending will be something like this: cercei is defeated, but before she is killed she has sent Quiburn to ignite the wildfire. Everyone dies except Daenerys , who is immune. Realizing that Westeros is a silly place afterall she flies back to Mereen and rejoins Dario. The end shows Bran shedding a tear. He knew all the time.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
LOL! If I ever need a personal ad, I will send you a raven.
I loved the scene with Jaime/Brienne parting – emotionally powerful.
But every time, I look at the photo above, I smile. Jaime looks like he is 5 years old and refusing to come indoors, put on his pajamas and go to bed.
Same. Especially from Sansa. And she says ” Arya killed the Night King” I was like suuuuuuuuuuuuureeeeeeee she did.. but you all have sacrificed Dany’s armies before your own armies girl… please get down the high horse..
Just go back to season 7 when viewers worried that Sansa would go after Arya who could use her deadly skills to fight back. In the finale, we got the Ned quote about the pack surviving because they work together. This season we have the truth about Jon’s mother and father. Dany has lost everything because she helped save Winterfell and the World for Jon. We have the pack of friends splitting up when it makes no sense. If Cersei wins she will tap dance over the entrails of the losers, Splitting up to supposedly live their own lives because it’s safe now is suicidal.
A few points:
It’s easy to say that Ghost is an obedient dog put in the care of a friend, but, he’s a Wolf and will do anything he wants to.
If Dany is destined to go Mad Queen then why make the point that she has a good heart?
Does Cersei have any more hostages? And, what will she do that could enrage Jamie?
Has Euron counted the weeks and figure out he’s been had.
Will The Hound and Arya stop over at Hot Pie’s for Chicken and wolf bread?
Winterkat,
Good points, though the situation is rather different than the case of Hodor. Just spying with his ravens, for instance, on Cercei and Euron, would just provide intelligence, he wouldn’t warg into anyone , or go into the past and change anyhing.
Perhaps you are right about Jamie, but I still don’t understand how that fits his arc, if indeed it does play out the way you mention and if indeed he goes there to be with her. From all that he has said about Cercei until now, he genuinely seemed to realize that she deserves whatever’s coming for her.
And he decided to stay with Brienne in the North, knowing that Cercei would go down and die. So, what happened suddenly and he changed his mind after he found out that Euron killed dragon and took Missandei? That wasn’t adressed in any way.
The only way I can interpret this sudden change of mind, is that either he thought that he’s the only one who can get close enough to her to kill her – or to protect his unborn child. Which, again, is rather irrational, since a) it was established in a grandiose way that Arya is the right person to sneak up to Cercei and kill her b)he didn’t think about the baby when he decided to stay with Brienne. It just doesn’t make much sense to me.
I understand that perhaps they wanted him to die by Cercei, that adds to the drama in the show, but if so they should have hinted that or addressed that in the previous episodes.
A few stray thoughts:
I’ve been thinking also lately what Ser Davos said about the Red God – and then reading some comments here as well about the matter-and I started to think/hope that perhaps there’s something there, but as always it may be just a line without any significance just to make us start theorizing. But if there was any significance, I wonder (wish) if we see Kinvara again – she seemed as strong as Mel if not more, and perhaps she can somehow offer her ressurection abilities for something ( a dragon for instance!). It would be nice, if she dropped by! 🙂
I also keep thinking that I’d much prefer Tormund and Ghost with Jon; he can trust them and they would protect him, while I’m not sure about anyone else doing that for him at this point (Ser Davos is not much of fighter). The South and especially KL is not a good place for either of them, I know, and they earned an early retirement to the wall where they can live free. But still, I wish Jon had more of his own trusted people (and the best boi) with him, since Arya left for her quest.
And the problem is that the more people know about who Jon really is, the more he’s in danger and he doesn’t even know it in order to protect himself. He doesn’t know that Tyrion knows the truth, and especially not Varys, which practically means anyone can find out at any point and try to kill him.
Lastly, I hope it won’t be the last we saw of Tormund and Ghost in the show. Even if it is just one shot of them roaming free around the Wall and hunting for dinner 🙂
This episode really depressed me. I haven’t felt that down in years. And no, it wasn’t because of Rhaegal and Missandei dying (although Rhaegal’s death was incredibly touching, surprising and well done – one of the sadly few ups of the episode), rather what disappointed me so much was the shortchanging od so many characters in the span of only one episode.
Sansa: Sansa continues in her unrelenting attacks on Daenerys. I mean sure, you could be caring for soldiers, then you ask for at least a couple days so they can stay warm and eat well before they get going again. But just saying what amonts to: “We should let the soldiers recuperate, but I don’t know how long. Let’s just adjourn the meeting till next week and deal with that then, if it’s fine with everyone, noone has anything important on the schedule, right?” Let’s not even go into the fact that anyone as clever as Sansa is constantly claimed to be would know that prolonged rest is awful for troop morale. They just survived in and won one war. Now they rest and are fine. Why would they need to go fight some foreign queen’s war down south, where northmen never do well?
And we also got the disgusting dialogue where Sansa basically defends being raped and brutalised. I can’t even…
Mind you, it’s fine when Bran blurts out that all past events lead to the present, for better or worse. It’s a whole other thing when Sansa insinuates that she changed from a naive girl to a leader of the North and lady of Winterfell because or even thanks to being brutalised and raped. That is just too much.
Daenerys: (before you cry I shit on Sansa because I am a Daenerys fanboy) Daenerys may have very good reason to feel down, unappreciated etc. But that’s no excuse for demanding Jon to lie to his “family” (not revealing who he is once he knows amounts to him lying – and Daenerys knows how much Jon values honesty, she saw examples of that the whole of last season, usually at a cost for him). At the same time she continues to be dead set on sitting on the Iron throne asap. Any compromise be damned, any reasoning be damned. The way I fault Sansa for bullheadedly undermining Daenerys, I can fault Daenerys for never really attempting to offer a friendly gesture. Something as simpe as saying “You know your men better than me. Fine, we’ll wait x amount of time before departing south” instead of directly attacking Sansa for wanting to not fulfill Jon’s promise.
All it comes down to is just another artificial “catfight” between female characters like we had between Sansa and Arya last season. I am dumbfounded as to why the writers constantly shove this nonsense in our face…
Of course as the episode progresses, Daenerys is bereft of anybody talking some sense to her and so is destined to becoming just another mad queen (does Westeros really need more than one?). It sure ends up making sense for Daenerys, she always had those dark impulses. But the fact she is basically left alone with the dark thoughts is because Tyrion and Varys once more couldn’t foresee an attack and tyrion once again couldn’t dissuade cersei from doing what she wants. No idea why Tyrion keeps failing time and again and Varys just never gets the actually useful information, only info that paints Daenerys in a bad light (she knows Cersei has innocent civilian body shields, wants to torch the place anyway). Like how many times will Euron’s fleet surprise attack Daenerys’ forces?!
Brienne and Jaime: Okay, so Brienne somehow heroically survived the great war just to go to bed with Jaime and be left in the dust. Awesome writing right there. Now don’t take me wrong, Jaime going south and somehow dealing with Cersei could be a decent redeeming end of Jaime’s storyline. But that happening is a BIG IF, sadly he might have just found out “after trying out Brienne”, that he still loves Cersei, no matter what and he wants to protect her and his child.
Either way this goes, plot moves at the expense of Brienne’s character. She did not deserve that. Best case scenario: Jaime redeems himself, Brienne is left in the dust. Worst case scenario: Jaime reverts to old Jaime. Brienne still left in the dust.
Somehow Arya became the best role model in GoT, most sensible and reasonable character. That is a lot to say about someone that gleefuly exterminated a whole clan (Freys). Frankly her convo about not needing many friends was a bit hollow after she got saved by the Hound and Beric last episode, but other than that, she was rational when talking with Jon, she was as kind as she could have been with Gendry (I bloody hope they don’t make Gendry mad as well afterwards!) and she just does what she thinks is the best (leaves Winterfell).
Minor gripes:
– Jon should have petted Ghost, but well, that’s the animal lover in me (also the reason Rhaegal’s fall hit me hard).
– Rhaegal somehow seems to get hit with all initially fired scorpion bolts, later Euron fleet fails hitting even one of the (seemingly) far more being shot at Drogon. But hey, moment of surprise and all.
What did make me happy:
– Overall Arya, though I wish her line about not needing many friends was cut and her leaving Winterfell after strongly arguing for staying together as the last Starks was explained.
– Rhaegal’s surprising and devastating death.
– Despite furthering the unpleasant “Dany goes mad and needs to be gotten rid of” storyline, it was a pleasure to finally hear Varys speak again. For two full scenes with Tyrion, no less!
Lars,
Sorry, I was too devastated after the episode to write more. What I mainly meant was how they were going (afterall) with the long gestating “Daenerys goes mad” path (first very obvious in Meereen) and the long predicted “Varys betrays her” with the added bonus of Tyrion and Sansa being in on the conspiring bandwagon.
That just feels very cheap, more so because of what I wrote above.
Wolfish,
There are a lot of people questioning Sansa and her motives – I understand her. (Yes, Deanerys helped them, but if Daenerys thinks she’s the one and only queen, it should be her duty to help HER people. I don’t like the attitude that the Night King was a problem of the Northeners – he was a threat to everyone. So it was also in Daenery’s seltinterest to save the North. So I don’t think what some people say, that Sansa should be on her knees. They all needed each other.)
I think Daenerys has changed – and I don’t like where the show takes her. Once her aim was to free people from slavery, the poor people seemed to be her priority, she even waited to go to Westeros. Now I think she reacts selfish. Her prior concern is the throne. If this means to burn a million innocent – so may it be. Yes, Cercei is a tyrant. But if she burns the city it is like Jon said in Season 7: She will be more of the same shit. I don’t want her to sit on the Iron Throne by burning Kingslanding. How can understand Jaime for killing a king who threatened to burn the city and when it comes to Daenerys burning the city – that’s alright?!
I guess Sansa sees Dany’s selfishness, stubbornness and her potential cruelty. Sansa made good points (let the arym rest for a while; how can we feed them all) – and Dany didn’t listen to this. She doesn’t want to share power. Yes, she made Gendry a Lord, but she did it to have an ally – not because she admired his efforts. She barely knows him.
As I said I loved the old Dany and I can understand why people love her still. Maybe the good old Dany is still there?! Sometimes you can get a glimpse of her. Until then I’m ream Sansa… I would rather be reigned by Jon than Dany (even if you can never be sure that Jon doensn’t give up his titles on the next best occasion).
Winterkat,
I agree. The warg side of Jon and actually all the Starks is not played up in the show, but if Ghost lives on in the (real) North, maybe Jon can too?
This is also why I am not at all upset about the goodbye scene everyone is up in arms about: he has a telepathic connection with Ghost, and they don’t need pets and kisses like we do with our dogs.
True.
Someone else suggested that Sansa’s taunt about witnessing Cersei’s execution hit him, made it very real. To be clear, my thought is that he doesn’t necessarily know himself what he is going to do, and that he will kill her if that’s what it takes. He just can’t walk away, like a captain that needs to go down with the ship (even though she was clearly the captain of their ship lol)
I hope so too! I mean, I really hope Jon is reunited with them and gets to live out his days in peace 🙂
I’ve only watched the episode once as I had to leave for vacation but I really enjoyed it. That said, I can acknowledge that it felt almost like two episodes in one and that it felt rushed towards the end with some plot holes. Clearly they are setting Dany up to slaughter thousands of innocents in pursuit of the throne so we will see how that ends next week. I like how they had Missandei executed to be the final straw for Dany.
Surely it’s not that predictable as despite all the foreshadowing since season 2 there are lots of fans complaining that Danys behaviour is out of character. This was never going to be a very happy ending.
I sigh very much at posts like theses which imply seximism or racism on the part of the writers just as much as I do those who claimed the show was a vehicle for feminism when they had Arya kill the Night King rather than Jon. It’s no more than cheap unfounded criticism.
Dany has not been dfestroyed at all in my view, this has been set up with plenty of foreshadowing since season 2 the fact some did not pick up on it is not the writers fault.
Well I have been saying years ago that Daenerys has a crazy side in her, same as Theon has a Reek side in him or Sansa hasn’t rebounded from her trauma or that Jaime, despite all attemps hasn’t managed to break free.
All those storylines have been in a constant yo-yo effect, bouncing from one side to the other. Any moment it started to look like the characters broke free from the spell (Darth Sansa, Daenerys postponing the invasion of Westeros to sort out Meereen, Jaime sending Brienne to find and protect the Stark sisters, Theon declaring Yara the Queen of the Iron Islands, etc), they later reverted to their previous traumatised selves or bad habits (Daenerys burning whomever she chose, Sansa falling apart despite having Littlefinger’s help (mind you this was understandable to a large extent, still, some plays could have been made), Theon running from Euron (once more, this one is understandable, he wouldn’t manage to defeat Euron anyway), Jaime ending up with Cersei again…).
This structure can work for a while, if the characters grow from this. Theon managed to grow and is the only one from this list I end up loving as a character. He got a good death (though a death it was still). Jaime ended up with Cersei anyway, despite all the abuse and Brienne suffered in all that as well. Daenerys really ended up the Fire&Blood queen, despite all the counsel by Tyrion, Jorah, Barristan, Varys, despite seeing how badly Meereen ended up.
Sansa may have grown somewhat, but was still incapable of empathic diplomacy, undermining publicly Jon and Daenerys alike (and engaging in a crazy sister drama with Arya last season).
Basically all of those points lead us to the penultimate episode of GoT, but these events ring very hollow because what lead to them never should have happened. You can clearly see things happening because the writers wrote so, not because the characters would organically behave that way after what they have experienced.
In the end these last seasons are epic, no doubt about that. No TV show has ever managed to film sequences so masterful and awe inspiring (the at times too dark to see Battle of Winterfell notwithstanding). But the character development suffered. Plot no longer makes sense.
Well, for me anyway, and that is making me very sad indeed. The show could easily have ended on a high note while still being bleak (I was personally expecting way, way more deaths in the Long Night). Instead it is rushing to some ending that has been setup in front of the writers yet makes not much sense in regards to the characters within the show.