Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 “The Last of the Starks” Recap

Jon Snow Sansa Stark Arya Bran Season 8 804

Good lord (of light), Game of Thrones episodes are lengthy these days, aren’t they? That was the first thing that ran through my head during the almost hour and a half of Westerosi politics to which we were treated this week. In what felt distinctly like two different episodes merged together (to me, at least), we were treated to a whirlwind of emotions. Join me, as we dive in together.

Spoiler Note: This is our book reader’s recap, intended for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section may contain spoilers from the novels, whether or not that material has appeared on the show yet. Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you have not read the books yet, we encourage you to check out our non-book-reader recap, by Oz of Thrones!

Secondary Note: Sue is off this week, and has entrusted this week’s recap to me. You are cordially invited to tell me why you disagree with me, albeit your civility would be preferred!

Expectations, like power, are curious things, are they not? One day you expect a certain character to be in as position of power, and by night’s end you weep as their forces are decimated. But I’m getting ahead of myself. The first 45 minutes of the episode were contained within the walls of Winterfell. In a truly serene montage, we watched as the many casualties of last week’s battle were honored as true heroes.

Daenerys Targaryen Funeral Jorah Mormont Season 8 804

Everyone has someone to mourn:

  • Sam mourns Edd
  • Jon mourns Lyanna
  • Arya mourns Beric
  • Sansa mourns Theon
  • Dany mourns Jorah (as do I)
  • Davos mourns his lack of resolution with Melisandre

Theon Greyjoy Sansa Stark Funeral Season 8 804

It is a very somber opening, with a speech by Jon, in which he puts on his very manly adult voice, because that did not sound like the Jon I know? Just me? It all segues into an initially quiet post-funeral feast. No one seems to be able to say much of anything until Daenerys calls over Gendry. To everyone’s surprise (his most of all), she proclaims him Lord Baratheon of Storm’s End. And Dany gets to prove to Tyrion that she has some clever tricks up her sleeve same as he does (I quite liked that). As I see it, this newly made lordship does two things:

  1. Gives those not entirely loyal to her a reason to believe in her, as she shows herself to be a fair and just ruler, and, most importantly:
  2. Gets a possible claimant to the Iron Throne the HELL outta the way.

Gendry of course runs to Arya and without any plan in place just drops and proposes – ah, to be young and in love one-night stand. While flattered, Arya couldn’t help but throw a callback to season 1’s “That’s not me” and shuts it down. I’ve long said that Arya is not one for Westeros, and will go her own way once the fighting is done. As to where, your guess is as good as mine.

Brienne of Tarth Podrick Pod Payne Tyrion Lannister Jaime Season 8 804

With the mood improved, the feasters proceed to play Game of LooksTM. Name a character who was present, and they give a sassy or surprised look at someone else in that room: Sansa, Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Davos, Tormund, Podrick, The Hou – nah, he’s too busy not caring and eating his damn chicken. Truth be told, I could have hung out at this joint for hours. We have another callback, with Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, and Pod playing Guess the FactsTM which hearkens us back to season 1 when Tyrion, Bronn, and Shae first played on the eve of battle. Understandably, the question about Brienne’s virginity embarrasses her and she vacates the premises. And on this night of firsts, Brienne makes love for the first time, while Jaime makes love for the first time with someone who isn’t his own sister. It is beautiful, and to all those Tormund and ‘The Big Woman’ shippers, I extend to you my sincerest apologies. Jaime and Brienne have been on this path for 6 seasons now, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. If episodes 2 and 4 don’t earn Gwendoline Christie her Emmy nomination, so help me…

We have a quick little moment between Tyrion and Davos, exchanging pleasantries more than anything, and reminding us all why Davos needs to just buy his own piece of land in Westeros, settle down, and open a bar. But the real highlight for me of this whole set piece has to be the one that sets San-San fans aflame. The Sansa and Sandor of the show never had the relationship or as many interactions as they did in the books, but there was just enough for us to really connect with the characters in this moment. It seems there’s always destined to be a Stark girl in The Hound’s life. Rory McCann’s gruffness and Sophie Turner’s practicality mesh so well together. Their characters come alive so vividly and we think back to the Battle of the Blackwater when Sansa was rightfully afraid of the idea of leaving with The Hound. Houndsight is 20/20, of course, and she’d likely have been far safer with him than she would have with Littlefinger, but they are where they are because of the experiences that have shaped them.

Sandor Hound Clegane Sansa Stark Season 8 804

Focusing on The Hound in particular, I cannot wait for more scenes between him and Arya. Of all the two-man quests the show has put forth, none has ever shined brighter than these two. We see them ride off together, presumably on their way to King’s Landing. Should he survive the seemingly impending #Cleganebowl, I kind of hope these two go off together. Not in a romantic way (gods no), but in a symbolic way, perhaps. TBD…

The most central plot, if you will, throughout the episode, is the question of who should rule the seven kingdoms? Dany makes sense as the last living Targaryen, and she tries to make Jon see this as they gather for some after dinner romance…but he cannot shake what he now knows. While he promises Dany he does not want the crown, and will serve her unconditionally, Dany gives him an ultimatum: Do not tell his sisters, or anyone else, what he knows. But, as we all know in the world of TV, no secret ever remains that way for long…

Tormund Jon Snow Daenerys Targaryen Season 8 804

Amidst absolutely stunning cinematography, “the last of the Starks” gather in the godswood, for what might be their final family meeting. Words are exchanged but shade doesn’t come just from the trees in this scene; Bran tells Jon that it’s his choice. For Sansa and Arya, it would seem that the choice he faces is whether to stand with Sansa and hold the North, forgoing his newly sworn allegiance to Daenerys, or stand alongside Daenerys as she takes on Cersei. Of course, Jon knows the subtlety of Bran’s meaning, and while we don’t see it, we know that Jon comes clean to his sibs cousins. The lesson here is never, ever tell someone a secret you don’t want to get out. Naturally, Sansa told Tyrion, Tyrion told, Varys, and we were just off to the races…but more on that in a sec.

Dragonstone Rhaegal Viserion Season 8 804

If you thought the the episode was slow and boring at first, boy howdy were you mistaken. As the gang moves south (at season 7 pace, not season 3 pace), RHAEGAL IS KILLED LITERALLY OUT OF NOWHERE OH MY GOD WHAT IS HAPPENING? I gotta hand it to the editors, if ever you are going to do a surprise death, that is the way to do it. Neither Dany nor we had any time to remotely process what was happening. There was no music, nor indication that the characters were going to be enmeshed in a battle until it actually happened. I guess while the rest of humanity was fighting for existence, Cersei kept her minions working day and night on making many Scorpions. With the fakeout death of Tyrion via fallen ship mast – nice try show, we’ve seen Jon climb back up from under a sheet of ice, and Jaime resurface miles from battle with a full suit of armor, so you aren’t fooling anyone with your water-based fake deaths – behind us, we learn that Missandei has been captured by Cersei. This one really hurts.

Drogon Daenerys Targaryen Euron Fleet Dragonstone Season 8 804

While Dany plots how best to storm King’s Landing, Cersei smartly fills the Red Keep with the common people, knowing Dany would need to become a butcher to win, which would certainly not help her solidify her rule. But Dany’s incensed desire to win whatever the cost (she literally says ‘whatever the cost’) does not sit well with her advisors. In scenes that are sure to send Twitter a tumblin’ (or is it Tumbler atwitter?), Varys and Tyrion debate what must be done about Dany. See, this is why Jon should have kept his stupid Targaryen mouth to himself. Arming Varys, who has only ever wanted to serve the realm, with information, is the most dangerous thing you can give a Spider. This gives him the confidence to suggesting overthrowing Daenerys, who he believes is rapidly spiraling downward toward madness. I will make this very clear: I do not agree with him. Tyrion, thankfully is on my side, and begs Varys to reconsider. I gotta say – going into this final season, I’d never have thought Varys capable of regicide, but it looks like this might be his path (for which he will likely die trying).

Missandei Season 8 804

The final 10 minutes of the episode contain so much tension that my neck is still straining from all the blood coursing through it. Tyrion does his best to appeal to the human he believes lives somewhere amidst the shell of Queen Cersei. And here’s where I give Cersei some credit, but please hear me out, before you @ me. For Cersei – one track, one mind, pure evil Cersei, acting impulsively is one of her stronger attributes. But here, she did something very cold and calculating amongst greater pressure. She had three options: Surrender, which was never going to happen, kill Tyrion, or kill Missandei. We all know which one she took, but it’s the why she took that way about which I am so fascinated. Cersei has always been petty, and prone to put her own self-interests above others. Tyrion is the person she probably hates most in this world, and killing him would bring her extraordinary satisfaction. Yet, she believes hurting her enemy is more important than rewarding herself, and so she opts instead to go for Daenerys’ (and by extension Grey Worm’s) jugular. You could hear a pin drop in my viewing party. Unfortunately, we know how it turns out. As a white guy, I’m going to leave the discussions of representation to people better suited than I am, but I’ll say her death felt meaningful, and her character felt important. Nathalie Emmanuel poured her heart and soul into this show, and I am forever grateful. She is a treasure and I’m so glad she made her mark.

Missandei Cersei Lannister Gregor Mountain Clegane Season 8 804


Stray Thoughts:

  • Get it, Podrick!
  • I don’t really get you, Tormund, you spurned man, but get it all the same!
  • That scene with Bronn bursting in on Jaime and Tyrion did NOT go how I thought it would. I completely assumed that Bronn would head north, using Cersei’s edict as an excuse to escape King’s Landing. Was this scene out of character for Bronn? Yes, he is a sellsword through and through, but after 8 seasons, I do not feel confident that this is the character we know. I don’t know what else to feel. Help me feel things, commenters.
  • Who is going to be Lord of Winterfell? Tyrion and Bran exchange brief words over this but it doesn’t seem too resolved at the moment. Sansa seems like the easy option, but as we know, nothing is obvious on this show.
  • There’s a new Prince of Dorne? Huh? What? Details, please. That was pretty glossed over, though I suspect that was intentionally so.
  • I seriously don’t get why Jon HAS to tell his sisters. If he swears unconditional love to Dany, then who cares? Telling other people only makes her more vulnerable to enemies. His commitment to being as honorable as Ned is going to get people killed!
  • Jon had so many goodbyes! First with Tormund, then with Sam, and finally with Ghost…? Huh? It seems like the show just decided that CGI and FX are cool when it comes to dragons and leveling cities…but not when it comes to just kinda enhancing dogs to make them look bigger? What? Jon just writes Ghost off like that? That seems unlikely.
  • I feel like the show just doesn’t know what to do with Gilly so they decided, “Hey, let’s make her pregnant!” with a Little Gilly.
  • I don’t think it was out of character for Jaime to leave hastily in the middle of the night. He’s obviously very conflicted about his feelings for Cersei, and just hearing the news is enough to give him the jitters. It is not out of place, though. I think he has always been building to this moment. The timing of it does suck for Brienne, though.

RIP:

  • Rhaegal
  • Missandei

Final thoughts:

This episode is sure to be divisive. My biggest problems were character inconsistencies and the episode length. There were basically two complete episodes stuffed into one, which makes this all very frustrating. The first 45 minutes of this episode was very strong, if you ask me. And then, the second half was so different in tone. It could have added 10 minutes of fleshing out, and been its own episode. Still, the show found ways to impress me, whether in the incredible feast scenes early on, Brienne and Jaime love, or the blood-pumping suspense of the episode’s harrowing final moments. Game of Thrones is a mammoth undertaking and you can’t please everyone, but I do think this episode has a couple cracks. However, it was largely very exciting, both in its small character moments, as well as its action setpieces.

What did you think, friends? Let us know in the comments below.

700 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. SO the endgame for Sam and Bran were to tell Jon about his true parents? And to have Bran as bait. Thats it. What was in those books Sam stole? Great episode but expected more for these two characters in the final season

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    2. It was indeed Shakespearean and I loved it for that–the Bronn scene, though, I did have some misgivings about the way it was presented at first, but it helps to contextualize it a bit. To be fair he isn’t wrong when he says that both Tyrion and Jaime have made him countless promises that haven’t truly been delivered on (and he’s frequently put his life on the line for them), but at the same time he’s clearly looking for an excuse not to kill them, he doesn’t want to carry out Cersei’s orders even if he knows he would benefit from it, so instead he effectively threatens Tyrion into bribing him with a better deal. Being a relatively minor character I’m sure Bronn is one of the characters who didn’t have an ending described by Martin, which likely explains this.

      But that said, I personally predict that he will ultimately end up choosing friendship over wealth for perhaps the first real time in his life, and could quite possibly end up paying for that as a result.

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    3. Great episode. I like how Dany always dreamt about coming home, but then when she finally landed in Westeros and defeated the major threat, she is realizing that it isn’t her home at all, but rather a place completely alien to her.

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    4. I’m not ready to say goodbye to all of the characters about to die next week. I fully expect Jon to be one of them. Gods, it’s gonna suck!

      This felt like the cliff notes version of the ending GRRM told them about. Thematically it was spot on. However, have they mishandled the characters so much that the story loses meaning? I feel like people don’t like where it is heading with Dany, but it seems like it has been stated plainly in the books that this was coming. And to be honest, it is the most complex and tragic story of any character in the show, and I didn’t think I’d feel that way about the character.

      Jaime’s words to Brienne was 100 percent his way of saying he is on a mission to kill Cersei and he doesn’t want Brienne following him, IMO. “I’m hateful too!” It’s come full circle. He has to kill another monarch to save KL again.

      I can’t help but feel Arya and the Hound are riding to yet another Red Wedding. If Jon dies, please let him have one last moment with Arya.

      Speaking of which, not showing Arya and Sansa’s reactions to the big identity reveal was weak. Super weak. Yes, let’s not allow the actors to play off of such a dramatic moment and make it all the more memorable.

      Sansa, speaking of coming full circle, you just betrayed your family again! I don’t blame Jon for telling his sisters, I suppose. Not everyone has Ned’s strength. But my gods Sansa! You want to protect Jon? Okay, so let’s thrust him into a Civil War, if by chance he even survives this one! Which he won’t. He’s dead. Super dead.

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    5. Bronn never really intended to kill Jaime and Tyrion, he was just getting some longstanding revenge on 2 friends who had jerked him around for a long time.

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    6. Fuck Cersei. Die, bish.

      Anyway, Sandor and Arya always make me happy. And he’s happy, in his own curmudgeonly way, which makes me happy.

      Missandei of Naath telling Dany to burn this shit down, wow. Really love Missandei, and losing her hurt.

      Losing Rhaegal, like any animal, ALWAYS hurts. Ow.

      JORAH, I AM NOT KIDDING, WE NEED YOU BACK. SERIOUSLY.

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    7. I honestly thought this was the best written episode D&D have done since season 4. It’s sure to be divisive since it appears that Dany will indeed turn into the Mad Queen, after all. Ouch.

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    8. As I noted in the other thread… Top 5, maybe top 3 for me.

      I’m exhausted and emotionally devastated, more than I was last week.

      MISSANDEI.

      Arya and the Hound understand each other more than any other pair of people on this show, despite (or perhaps because of) their surliness and emotional guardedness. I’m not surprised by their heading off together, and won’t be surprised if they wind up on a ship together to find what’s west of Westeros.

      Little Bird. Oh, my.

      Brienne. Oh, my heart breaks for her.

      Tormund and Ghost!!! Fuck.

      Gendry. You poor, simple, besotted boy.

      Varys. My favorite arachnid is going to meet his end soon, and I’m distressed.

      Fuck.

      Not enough Scotch.

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    9. I can’t help but feel disappointed. I’ve been a fan for so many years and I hoped this final season would be a great conclusion to a great story. But I feel robbed of the high standard of storytelling. Everything feels so rushed, dialogues are nowhere near close to the quality of previous seasons (anyone else finds some of the banters so cheesy?). Characters act illogical or just plain stupid (how could they not see Euron’s ships? How did they forget about this massive weapon machine against dragons? Why did they think they could negotiate with Cersei about Missandei when she has currently has the upper hand?).

      I don’t even care about Dany going full mad (I think the tendency was pretty visible during the show). Ep 3 was a pure “popcorn blockbuster” fan-service with many dumb parts but I was willing to not let it change my mind and not lower my hopes for a great final season. But with this episode, I’m really afraid about the whole thing. I don’t see any intelligent development, clever characters are continuously dumbed down, all logic is thrown out of a window for a sake of some wannabe epicness and grandiosity…

      And I repeat, I love the show! But I just don’t understand how so many fans don’t see the mistakes and cheer, even though this season is turning the whole show into something none of us would have ever wanted it to become…

      Or what do you guys think?

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    10. The magic of the show is gone, destroyed, ruined. I even do not longer want to point out all the stupid things they did. I hope GRRM will finish the books so we might get the magic of the story back. I do not need just another average action movie with stupid unlogical plots.

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    11. I loved this episode, just finished watching and I am SHOOK, not sure why Varys thinks Daenerys is going mad, she makes rushed decisions but I wouldn’t call her mad, I’m more with Tyrion on this.

      the things I do wish we had was figuring out what Bran is really doing, I mean what has his arc led to? just living in the past? and I wish we learned more about white walkers, it may be that showrunners don’t have more information on them?

      so basically at this point every hype we had about this season was a red herring to what actually is the endgame, conflict between the characters, morality,loyalty,…
      the humans could save each other from the white walkers and magical beings, but they can’t save themselves from themselves..

      also all the goodbyes to Jon had me worried, I don’t think he and Daenerys are gonna make it. not ready to say goodbye..
      The time of the episode was fine with me, almost wish it was longer.

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    12. WhiteSparkle: Characters act illogical or just plain stupid (how could they not see Euron’s ships? How did they forget about this massive weapon machine against dragons?

      That’s not what “illogical” means. And what exactly were they meant to do about the massive weapon machine? Furthermore, last time that weapon was used it barely did shit

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    13. I felt Bronn acted in character. He knows that Cersei pays her debts, so despite his liking of the brothers, he wants to make sure he gets his castle. But I guess Sam will reappear to gather the Reach, and Bronn will get his “reward”. Jaime didn’t promise anything (true to his word) and Tyrion is able to turn.

      Daenerys her arc is tragic. I think it’s unfortunate that she doesn’t want to share power with Jon (even while being in love). Luckily, now that Rhaegal’s gone, we won’t see D and J fight (thank the gods) and because Euron shot Rhaegal, him proposing to Daenerys is also out of question (thank the gods). As Tyrion somehow says, she became self-entitled, but she did a lot of good. I now fear she will die while taking KL, and Drogon too.

      Hope Sansa doesn’t go for Lady MacBeth. Btw, I suppose she’s aware that Arya is heading for Cersei, but why don’t they tell Daenerys/Tyrion etc? It seems like the Stark girls think that they can better solve the problem of Cersei themselves and simultaneously be independent of Daenerys and have a better claim for independence. Otherwise, it would be weird that Sansa, who always mentioned “the enemy to the south” wouldn’t be happy for support of Daenerys against Cersei. Now Jon is finally doing what she told him in S6.

      I understand Jon wants to tell Arya and Sansa. Ned is their father and they have a right to know. But the timing could have been better. Jon saying goodbye to Ghost could have been more emotional, but he’s right setting his wolf free in the north with the wildlings. Notice that he doesn’t want the wildlings to fight for Daenerys (they wouldn’t help much anyway, but that’s not their fight)

      Jaime is an asshole. But Brienne’s response to this drinking contest is too “modern”. I think a Ser/Lady Brienne from the middle ages would have been proud of her virginity (even though she doesn’t want to be a lady, but that’s in other respects).

      Cersei killing Missandei seems to be that she either wants to provoke a quick fight from Daenerys, or that she wants to carry out her treats notwithstanding the consequences. In the former case, it could be her better option because the Golden Company costs money and she has no lands. Personally I do think they had way too many scorpions though, and the technology is a bit too evolved. How much money did the Iron Bank loan to them? And why didn’t Daenerys roast them from the side while they shot at the ships?

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    14. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      To me it feels like they’re just checking off the boxes to get it ended. Seven seasons (much more for book readers but I can’t speak for that) of speculating, reading everyone’s fully fleshed out theory crafting and opinion on characters and why they are good/bad or getting reamed over why you believe one or the other will turn bad and defending our idea of these characters.

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    15. Frank:
      The magic of the show is gone, destroyed, ruined. I even do not longer want to point out all the stupid things they did. I hope GRRM will finish the books so we might get the magic of the story back. I do not need just another average action movie with stupid unlogical plots.

      We must have watched different episodes? Action movie? LOL. This episode was virtually all dialogue except for about 10 minutes. And very good dialogue too.

      And if you think that if in THIS episode specifically there aren’t a bunch of spoilers for the books, you’re deluding yourself.

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    16. fdr,

      To my own comment, maybe Jaime is actually travelling south to deal with Cersei (talking or otherwise) to prevent KL from being destroyed, and he doesn’t trust Brienne to be silent about it. But then he wouldn’t feel the need to hurt her (despite giving the audience on the wrong idea). And also, why doesn’t Sansa send her guards after a lonely Knight who is going to help the enemy?

      Edit: I just see Tyrion Pimpslap had a similar idea and already came up with a good explanation why Jaime’s hurting Brienne: he wants to make sure Brienne doesn’t follow him.

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    17. It’s happening pretty much as I expected given the reaction to last episode. People aren’t going to give these last 3 episodes a chance, they’ve decided they’re bad in advance. The fact that this has the lowest rating by far of any episode on IMDB is just absurd, and like 2000 people gave it a 1 before it it had ever aired

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    18. I didn’t get to finish my thought cause I ran out of time (trying to formulate the right words, which don’t always come easily for me) but yeah, I was going to end with after all that I know some are going to feel like they invested a lot of time and emotion into character/story line that in the end feels rather all for naught in some ways.

      For one I don’t see this having a happy ending for any of our faves.

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    19. I am really quite upset by the Jaime/Brienne thing. I can’t believe that he would sleep with her then leave her after everything they have been to each other. I am hoping that he is planning to end Cersei, but am also prepared for a massive disappointment.

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    20. Thanks for the recap 🙂

      My heart broke for Grey-worm.

      And Brienne.I wonder if D & D are going to make Brienne pregnant, and when Jaime dies (idiot!) her child will be acknowledged by Tyrion as the Lannister heir? It sounds fan servicey but the writers made sure Tyrion knew about the relationship…

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    21. George,

      Yes. As I stated before, this episode was the closest they’ve come to GRRM’s story in years. It felt like the themes explored, particularly with regards to Dany/Jon, was straight from George’s mouth about how he envisioned the ending. We can focus on how we feel about Dany all we want, but we are not those characters. They each have their own reasons for questioning her, particularly after they learn about Jon. It’s just a shame there aren’t more episodes to explore this development.

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    22. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      > But my gods Sansa! You want to protect Jon? Okay, so let’s thrust him into a Civil War, if by chance he even survives this one! Which he won’t. He’s dead. Super dead.

      She wants to be Queen of an independent North foremost, or know that the Kingdom is ruled by someone she trusts, but yes, she’s playing with high risks for her family. But if Jon was really going to die, I would have expected that D&D had let him kill the NK. If he dies now, his purpose was to bring the realm together to defeat the NK and then be one of the straws that lit Daenerys her pyre?

      Somehow it’s not unimaginable that most men have a better opinion of Daenerys than women, who are less taken by her looks (except Yara). I actually also like that now, when all the powerful men are gone, it’s the now the powerful women who create problems, and the men trying to keep it all together.

      Btw, anyone who knows who told Dany about Gendry? Was it Davos or Jon? I couldn’t really get the right answer from their looks. Jon would be more closer to Dany (and actually it would maybe also show he can be intelligent), but from the looks it seems it was Davos who took the initiative to tell Dany.

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    23. cosca,

      We knew this was coming. It is rather sad. I have my problems with the show and the way it has handled many characters. I don’t think they are good at imagining battle plans. They make characters do foolish things for the sake of a surprise. But I did enjoy this episode a lot. It’s not perfect. But it could crack my top 10, or at least be on a level with my top 15-20 favorite episodes. It’s certainly in my top 5 since they surpassed the books.

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    24. Biggest wtfs:

      How noone saw Eurons ships, especially Dany, Drogon or Rhaegal from the air. That really was a stretch of suspended disbelief. And Dany not flanking them and then torching them… yeah we get it, but honestly not believable.

      Dany and her compliment of unsullied looking to be more than in range of the dozen or so wall scorpions. Cersei could have taken her out easily at the end.

      The plot armor is too strong in both of these scenes. Loved the episode otherwise.

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    25. ygritte:
      For one I don’t see this having a happy ending for any of our faves.

      … and this can be seen, in some way, as rather beautiful

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    26. cosca,

      That makes me sad, if I were working on the show I’d probably be depressed by the amount of backlash if I’d spent the last 8-10 years of my life on it, but the haters are always the loudest. (by haters I don’t mean people who have valid criticisms)

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    27. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      As I’ve written before (and countless others have as well), the last two seasons have been inexplicably rushed.

      Tonight my heart broke for Daenerys. A descent into darkness seems inevitable, and the reasons for it are all too understandable, all too human, all too predictable for any student of history. And while they are true to GRRM’s unflinchingly clear-eyed vision of fiction that honestly reflects reality, I did so desperately wish that D&D would have given it enough time to play out onscreen.

      I’m far more shattered by this episode than I was by Ep3, in all the “good” ways. But I simply can’t imagine how it’ll be satisfactorily concluded in the time left.

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    28. I mostly liked the episode, except for 1) Jaime backsliding, if that is indeed what is happening, and 2) the intensity of Bronn’s anger and resentment, which seems overblown given what we know of his past relationships with both Lannister brothers.

      I disagree with the OP about the Varys/Tyrion discussion of Dany’s behavior. I think Varys has the right of it and is giving Tyrion a badly needed reality check. I’m sorry to know that Varys is almost certainly toast in the next episode. And it pains me to see supposedly brilliant Tyrion still clinging to his faith in Dany no matter what she does. It’s not grounded in reality. Dany just wants to be a conqueror, regardless of who has a better claim. It’s tiresome.

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    29. I hate being cut off from character’s POV just for shock value. Arya and Sansa not reacting to the parentage reveal? Not getting real insight into what Jon is feeling about all of this? What the hell?! I thought it was going to be THE biggest relevation…also for the Stark family. I’m almost certain it is only executed this way for some kind of twist. *Sigh*

      But this episode showed me one thing (dare I say it?) : Sansa is in love with Jon. Her dislike of Dany does not only stem from a political rationale or from her doubts about Dany’s abilities as queen. It goes beyond that, it’s irrational. It comes from a deep emotion she can’t quite control and maybe wasn’t/isn’t even aware of.

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    30. Wow that fleet of Euron’s really snuck up on them. Pity that they didn’t have a way of scouting out the enemy from the air before they got there… Oh, they did? Maybe they just didn’t think that the enemy having a fleet of ships more powerful than theirs would be an issue.

      About as dumb as sending the Dothraki army to their deaths in a screaming, unsupported wave. There has just been so much DUMB in the last two weeks! Why did Jon tell his sisters? What on earth did he think that making them pinky swear would do?

      I really don’t care if they massacre thousands or not. Since they had no real plan that didn’t involve the sacrifice of the Unsullied and the Dothraki I have lost interest. They have the worst generals since WWI.

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    31. Great episode!
      – I liked how the North is still frosty towards Dany because they should be.
      – I loved how tragic it is to see Dany unravelling (even if I don’t like the character it was really well done.
      – As someone who believed Missandei should have died last week in the crypts, her beheading seeing the body fall to the ground was so brutal and definitely the better option. Greyworms reaction was amazing acting.
      – Glad Gendry was legitimised but again does this stand if Dany never becomes Queen which seems likely at this point?
      – I loved Arya turning down Gendry it was so in her character.
      – I loved Varys switching to team Jon, it was expected but done with solid rationale. Sadly I really feel for him and Tyrion in the next episode. Dany may execute them both as she will scapegoat them.
      – I loved the mass funeral in the beginning minutes.
      – I loved Tyrion trying to do the right thing throughout yet slowly realising that Dany may not deserve his loyalty.

      There were a couple of things I was less keen on as follows:
      – Euron killing Rhaegal was a surprise and felt a little odd to happen so suddenly and with such accuracy, where does he go after that too? Also how did the survivors swim to Dragonstone so easily?
      – Gendry proposing to Arya so quickly felt odd and rushed.
      – Mixed feelings on Jamie/Brienne then him leaving at the end to deal with Cersei.

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    32. Wolfish:
      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      As I’ve written before (and countless others have as well), the last two seasons have been inexplicably rushed.

      Tonight my heart broke for Daenerys. A descent into darkness seems inevitable, and the reasons for it are all too understandable, all too human, all too predictable for any student of history. And while they are true to GRRM’s unflinchingly clear-eyed vision of fiction that honestly reflects reality, I did so desperately wish that D&D would have given it enough time to play out onscreen.

      I’m far more shattered by this episode than I was by Ep3, in all the “good” ways. But I simply can’t imagine how it’ll be satisfactorily concluded in the time left.

      I don’t know how “satisfying” people are going to think the ending is. (Which is probably why George has had writer’s block for years.)

      My Predictions:

      Jaime kills Cersei, dies in the KL fire.
      Arya gets sidetracked in her Cersei quest and ends up helping the Hound in his fight with The Mountain. Mountain defeated, The Hound gets mortally wounded and Arya mercy kills him.
      Dany roasts Euron and his fleet, along with most of King’s Landing.
      Dany goes full Mad Queen (Think Rhaenyra in George’s The Princess and the Queen) and Jon Snow ends up killing her.
      Jon Snow ends up on the Throne, establishes a Ruling Council to limit the power of the monarchy. (Davos, Tyrion, Sansa, Sweet Robin (LOL), etc.)

      Flashforward:
      Old Sam writes A Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe we see Old Jon as King, brooding into the distance. FINIS.

      I don’t think people will like it. LOL.

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    33. Suitably Ironic:
      Wow that fleet of Euron’s really snuck up on them. Pity that they didn’t have a way of scouting out the enemy from the air before they got there… Oh, they did? Maybe they just didn’t think that the enemy having a fleet of ships more powerful than theirs would be an issue.

      Uh…the dragons basically were the scouts? And the fleet was prepared for them to an extent the heroes couldn’t really have anticipated?

      I swear that the standards people have begun applying to the show have no real bearing on reality or even what has gone before in the show or books. Things like scouting and so on have pretty much NEVER been a major part of the series. How many times have massive armies crept up on people? The Tyrells and Lannisters at Blackwater, Stannis with the Wildlings. But this never bothered people becauae they were willing to go with it because they enjoyed the series. Now people want the show to fail, it couldn’t be more obvious!

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    34. So let me get this straight: Jon letting his sisters/cousins learn the truth about his parents is somehow worse than Sansa revealing the big secret to Tyrion moments after she promised she wouldn’t?

      How does that make any sense? If Jon dies as a consequence, will it also be his own fault?

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    35. S8E4 – the Day the Ships Died

      RIP Arya and Gendry
      RIP Brienne and Jamie
      RIP Dany and Jon
      RIP Missandi and Grey Worm
      RIP Sansa and Sandor
      RIP Sansa and Tyrion

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    36. Sansa is no longer a Stark. More a Bolton or Baelish!

      Cannot even keep her word in the Godswood. That is why Ned never told anyone about Jon even his wife.

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    37. Loved the episode, by the way. I tend to find battles and strategy kind of boring, and quieter moments are far more interesting.

      Dany seems to be flagging right before the finish line. Which is a shame, since we’ve followed her journey all this time. I’m not sure Jon would ever agree to betray her. In fact, this episode showed that beyond Grey Worm and Tyrion, Jon is her main supporter now.

      Admittedly, if she does go all fire and blood on King’s Landing, that might change.

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    38. George,

      Jon wouldn’t kill Daenerys in battle, and he can’t get to her unless Drogon is shot first. So either he gets roasted (which I don’t believe) or they capture Dany, but then I still think they won’t execute her, at least Jon won’t do that, even when duty is the death of love. He will plead for mercy. I guess she dies in battle, and he finds her a la Ygritte when he arrives with the troops.

      Arya helping the Hound in his final moments is foreshadowed, and I prefer that Jaime takes out Cersei storywise.

      Btw, I am also wondering, if Euron knows that Tyrion knows that Cersei is pregnant, doesn’t he then also know that the child isn’t his, even when Cersei is pretending that? Any repercussions here?

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    39. Redx,

      But Sansa has suffered so much. She’s just guarded. She’s just being a political mastermind. She was just a little girl when she wanted to be Queen and betrayed her father to Cercei but ya’ll hold that against her still. I’m tired of all the Sansa haters./s

      No, you’re right. She’s not to be trusted.

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    40. I still mostly enjoy watching this, but honestly the show has been lost since offing Tywin Lannister. It had a plausible means back then of making the task faced by our heroes in the war seem impossible. This was a man of such far reaching power and influence that they could fight the battles of their lives and still lose. It was heartbreaking, but deserved. The better team won. It doesn’t feel like that any more. It feels like the good guys have the better team but the league wants a close game, so they’re calling a bunch of nonsense fouls or some bettor is paying the good guys to miss on purpose and shave points. It’s suspense drummed up to hold interest, but it doesn’t feel organic.

      This started all the way back in season 5 when they had Stannis completely implode out of nowhere and go from defeating an army of 100,000 without breaking a sweat to having his entire force broken by a sneak attack from 20 guys. And it continued into the next season with the Umbers turning heel with such poor motivation basically just because the plot needed some extra suspense so the Knights of the Vale could stroll in and pick up a last second win.

      It got so much worse these past two seasons because they overpowered Daenerys but don’t want her to just stroll in and win because they need conflict, so they turn Euron and Cersei into genius masterminds when they need to and Tyrion into a bumbling idiot. They use the Army of the Dead as a plot device to give Cersei an assist. Euron is stupid enough to leave his prize prisoner guarded by six mutes so Theon can complete his redemption arc, then he’s a dragonslayer a few hours later because they need to push Dany over the edge.

      They turn Jon’s parentage reveal into just a source of conflict. The two greatest triumphs of the entire story, defeating the dead and finding out Rhaegar and Lyanna were married to bring together ice and fire and have their child of prophecy to end the long night and bring the dawn, and what do they do? They just make our heroes weaker.

      This no longer feels like Ned Stark, an honest man who understimated his friend’s abused wife. It doesn’t feel like Robb Stark, who fought valiantly and bravely and smartly, but was simply not ready for the stage and faced too great of odds stacked against him. It doesn’t feel like Jon Snow doing the right thing at all costs but dying for it because his brothers just weren’t ready to make peace with a historic enemy. It just feels now like writers determined to keep the good guys down by any contrivance imaginable.

      You can amass the greatest army the world has ever seen. You can finally unite those historical enemies. You can vision quest to become a mystical entity of unknown but great purpose. You can overcome war and captivity and rape and even death itself, but you still can’t win.

      It just feels like we’re watching characters predestined to lose no matter what they do by an impossibly cruel god, and they are, because their world is literally controlled by a man with a pen who has effectively preordained that it makes no difference what they do along the way. We need to sustain the drama, so we need to even the odds. Every plot development no longer feels driven by inevitability or character. It feels motivated by the need to keep the suspense alive a little bit longer even though a continents spanning alliance that just defeated death itself is facing an enemy hated by everyone who controls literally one castle. We know she isn’t going to win, but the writers are determined not to depict a blowout and we can’t have happiness at any cost, so here we are.

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    41. Sansa is little finger incarnate she will betray anyone to become queen in the North Arya saw through her once when she discover how Sansa had betrayed her father and family for her silly dream of becoming the queen of the seven kingdom, her telling Tyrion Jon’s identity just put a target mark on Jon she may pretend but we all know she has no love for anyone but herself and power ,she is Cercei & Littlefinger combined. It sucks that she wont die as she is far away from the war but i believe she deserves to die

      Daenerys is no mad queen anyone who has just suffered her tragedy would react the same … her mistake was making Tyrion her hand and letting him fill her head with this saving the people nonsense, she should have stuck to her initial plan and burnt the red keep from the start now she will lose everything… She deserves better but unfortunately she fell in love with a truthful idiot and trusted schemers and now that Jorah is gone she has no one in her corner which is the saddest part no matter how they paint her as evil in my opinion she will forever be the hero of this series.

      As for Cercei well played , she deserves the most painful death ever and i hope they don’t give her a quick death , her tyranny has went on long enough and its about time for it to end

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    42. ‘Basically, it’s okay to give your readers nice things to look forward to in your stories.’

      GRRM: ‘Well…’

      ‘No George, it really is okay.’

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    43. Redx,

      True i think i dislike more than Cercei , Cercei no matter how even never betrays her family .. Sansa is Judas!!! Her word means nothing even to her family

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    44. Everyone is saying that sending Ghost to the North is a budgetary thing but I saw it as a very emotional moment where Jon says goodbye to his role as a wolf. Although Lyanna was his mother, he now feels that he is a Targaryen, what I find really sad though is that he’s lost his dragon and the only way he will ever ride on again is if Dany dies because dragons can only have one rider.
      Also, is it just me or did Tyrion rule out that the WW brought the Winter? He said something about the smallfolk of KL turning on Cersei in season 2 and “that was before winter came” or something like that which seemed to imply that winter is here now and here to stay (so the seasons still go on as normal then? winter may come to KL still?).
      I found this episode truly terrifying because I was NOT ready to see Rhaegal die and I’m not ready to say goodbye to Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa or Tyrion. Lil disappointed that Sansa was the one to break the word of Jon’s parentage, I would have preferred if Varys had little birds in WF or something and caught word of it instead.

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    45. cosca,

      I don’t want perfection, I just want somebody to have a plan that doesn’t involve the equivalent of rushing at the enemy going aargh! We saw them in the north discussing the fact that half of the armies had been lost, we saw them discussing the Golden Company and how this evens things up. They knew that Euron and his fleet were at King’s landing. So what is the point of trying to land ships at King’s Landing???

      Again, what was the point of sending your cavalry riding into the dark against the enemy? Did they expect the Dothraki to beat all of the undead? Was it just a suicide mission? What was the point of spending a huge effort making f%*ing trebuchets that got one shot off each?

      At Helm’s Deep there was a sense of a battle plan, even if it was likely futile. When the battles are this dumb I lose any interest.

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    46. Daenerys, my Queen… you’re not long for this world, are you? ;_; The madness is justified, which makes it all the more tragic… please surprise me. Please live. But if you don’t… hug Jorah.

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    47. A really good episode for me in that it had me riveted without the need for big action sequences. Missandei’s execution left me feeling like I did after the red wedding. Gutted, horrified and heartbroken for Greyworm.

      My interpretation of Jaime leaving was that having heard the bad news from down south, he felt he had to play a part in taking down Cersei. I didn’t get the impression at all that he was going back to Cersei, rather that he felt honour bound to do something about her. Was I wrong?

      The promise has always been that the majority of the audience will find the ending “satisfying” After watching this episode all I can see it death and heartbreak for almost all the main characters. I can’t see how that is satisfying. It’s depressing. No Disney ending please but at this rate they are all going to end up dead or miserable. Or am I wrong again lol.

      I don’t see Jon dying somehow, but Dany? I think Varys is going to kill her. That’s my prediction. That exchange he had with Tyrion made me feel that was going to happen.

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    48. cosca,

      I think you make a good argument. Overall, I think it’s not only the logic behind things but the sloppy execution. The way it was done it just looks stupid as if everybody thought they could just get back to Dragonstone and it crossed nobodys mind that Cersei might have taken over the island during their absence. They could have avoided that if they had just showed a glimpse of the men who were left there in charge to hold the island. Idk maybe an Unsullied lieutenant/ Dothraki bloodrider could see Euron’s flagship approach and inform the men. Maybe show them ambush Euron while he takes the island. That way they could have instilled a bit of “realism”. Show Euron beat the small garrison of Dothraki/Unsullied and sit on the Dragonstone throne symbolically to make him a bit more menacing. This doesn’t need to take up a whole lot of time, a few poignant character centric scenes with maximum effect. It would set up believable suspense because the viewers would know Dragonstone wasn’t a safe place anymore but Dany & Co would not. The suprise attack on the Dragons could still have happened. Have the ballistas fire on Rhaegal from land as he gets to close to the ground and Euron attack them on sea. Show Team Targaryan’s flagship get hit severely but fight back with their other ships and have Euron subsequently retreat. The outcome would be the same but narratively more grounded and not just for shock value.

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    49. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface:
      Biggest wtfs:

      How noone saw Eurons ships, especially Dany, Drogon or Rhaegal from the air. That really was a stretch of suspended disbelief. And Dany not flanking them and then torching them… yeah we get it, but honestly not believable.

      Dany and her compliment of unsullied looking to be more than in range of the dozen or so wall scorpions. Cersei could have taken her out easily at the end.

      The plot armor is too strong in both of these scenes. Loved the episode otherwise.

      That bugged the hell out of me with the scsne in front of King’s Landing, too. We just saw Euron take Rhaegal from at least two kilometers with a direct shot to the center of the chest. Then Dany, Grey Worm, and Tyrion are about what? 500 meters from the castle wall with 15 ballistas aimed dead at them and Cersei doesn’t just off them right then and there? Even Drogon was within the range they’d just established five minutes earlier.

      I know they don’t shoot scenes in order, but is it really that hard to be consistent? It just felt like another instance where it works one way when the plot needs a surprise dragon death it works totally different when we need a cliffhanger. Even right after Rhaegal was downed with two perfect shots, Daenerys moves toward them to get even closer, then 16 of them all miss her at the same time. Like someone offscreen is paying these guys to miss on purpose so the game can go down to the last second.

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    50. Once a very long time ago I was madly in love – then when I noticed it was coming to an end I started saying all the worst things and having the most hateful thoughts towards my partner mostly because I was in pain and didn’t know how to deal with someone I’d loved so much coming to an end
      THIS IS WHATS HAPPENING IN THE GOT FANDOM RIGHT NOW
      People are hating because they honestly don’t want to say goodbye but it’s coming – we have 2 episodes left AND THEN ITS OVER – ENJOY IT WHILE IT LASTS YOU IDIOTS BECAUSE AFTER THIS ITS DONE

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    51. Just now read your review David, I’m surprised you say this episode is divisive as I’ve seen largely overwhelmingly positive comments (a few exceptions and those largely strong Dany supporters). I do agree on it feeling like two episodes merged together though, I wonder if this should have been a seven episode season and these split to give the second half more time to breath as you rightly state. Otherwise not too much to be critical over – I really don’t like people bringing skin colour to Missandei’s death, it feels cheap to me given it’s a fictional show, although warranted in the real world.

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    52. Adam,

      While there are indeed more contrivances than ever before to manufacture drama, at the end of the day this is a drama, and some of what you said (and certainly a lot of what other people are saying) kind of sounds like you’re complaining about a drama being a drama just as much if not more than the actual contrivances. Drama requires conflict, poorly contrived or otherwise. You might not like the way they’re accomplishing that, and that’s fair (especially with the structure of these last seasons), but it’s still necessary. It’s a major part of why most people were drawn to the story in the first place.

      Most of your points are at least valid, but of course Jon’s parentage reveal was going to be nothing but a source of conflict, that’s been pretty clearly laid out since Day One. No one should seriously have been expecting it to result in a “Jon marries Dany and they live happily ever after” scenario, but nowadays seems like a lot of people are projecting their own personal desires for happy endings into something that has actually always been pretty honest in the fact that it simply isn’t that kind of story. Yes, some characters will have fairly happy endings (the revelry early on in this very episode wasn’t just for show), but a lot won’t. This was always inevitable, and I think that’s what really happening is that the specifics of that weren’t what people expected and they can’t reconcile that with what they were hoping for. After all, this story has been in the process of being told in one form or another for over 20 years.

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    53. Stoneheart:
      I loved this episode, just finished watching and I am SHOOK, not sure why Varys thinks Daenerys is going mad, she makes rushed decisions but I wouldn’t call her mad, I’m more with Tyrion on this.

      the things I do wish we had was figuring out what Bran is really doing, I mean what has his arc led to? just living in the past? and I wish we learned more about white walkers, it may be that showrunners don’t have more information on them?

      so basically at this point every hype we had about this season was a red herring to what actually is the endgame, conflict between the characters, morality,loyalty,…
      the humans could save each other from the white walkers and magical beings, but they can’t save themselves from themselves..

      also all the goodbyes to Jon had me worried, I don’t think he and Daenerys are gonna make it. not ready to say goodbye..
      The time of the episode was fine with me, almost wish it was longer.

      Dude. Dany is gearing up to slaughter tens of thousands of innocents in the pursuit of power and under the guise of revenge. If Varys is true to his word that he serves the realm then he’s every right to be calling this out, especially as he now knows of a more just and liked potential heir to the throne.

      The fact that Dany has been pushed to do great horrors – which is surely going to come next episode – is just great writing and set-up by GRRM/D&D.

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    54. Summer,

      Sansa is not in love with Jon, she’s in love with power and so bent on revenge that she doesn’t she see is becoming the same as those she seeks to depose. She has twice now put Jon’s life at risk for her own selfish purposes. People just refuse to see it but she is a child of Cersei and LittleFinger and she’s playing the game the way they taught her too.

      This show is about power and what people will do to get it, love has nothing to do with it. Jon, I hope, will end up back with Tormund and Ghost — away from all the machinations of the game players. He’s the only decent one of the bunch and he has refused to play their game from the start.

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    55. The episode was OK. I don’t love it, but I didn’t hate it. After last week’s bonanza, I knew nothing would live up to it.

      The visuals were great, some of the more character driven scenes were well executed too, but there was too much comedy (Tormund crying, seriously?).

      It felt somewhat rushed in places, like they’re just in a hurry to get on and finish the show. Although that’s been the case since season 7.

      Am I the only one who didn’t want to see Brienne and Jaime get it on? For me, the agony of unrequited love was always what attracted me to their story. Now they’ve bumped uglies that magic is gone and their parting scene seemed a little soap opera like. Although it’s clear he’s being a douche to go do the right thing.

      On the other hand I AM pleased Arya told Gendry to take his ladyship and stick it up his bung hole. Totally faithful to her character.

      Jon never even ruffled ghosts ear to say goodbye??! WTAF?! Ghost’s sad whine really kicked me in the guts- more than anything this episode! Very badly handled D&D!

      Rhaeghal’s death was a cheap shot-although shocking it came way to easily. How the hell did Dany not see a great fleet of frickin Ironborn when she was flying?

      And then we have Varys, master of whispers. Basically plotting to kill his queen in a great bloody throne room with his echoes bouncing off the walls.

      I see Kings Landing has teleported from being on a narrow peninsula shouldered by hills, to a wide flat plain. Huh.

      Poor Missandei- I see a lot of rants on twitter about using a POC as a pawn in the plot- puhlease. Have these guys seen how many non POC have been massacred?

      So there we have it folks, we can see the endgame clear as day:

      Varys is executed for attempted regicide.

      Jaime kills Cersei, and she stabs him at the same time. Brienne follows him south and finds him dying, which he does in her arms.

      Dany goes on the rampage, everyone thinks she’s mad (she’s not- but she’s pissed) and she either dies in battle or (more likely), Jon kills her- either a mercy killing or as her foe. This is the Nissa Nissa moment. It may result in Drogon going dragonshit on their asses- lightbringer (though I don’t think the prophecy needs to occur in the right order to work).

      Jon dies as his destiny through the LOL is possibly linked to the above. So once that’s fulfilled, he’ll die (like Beric and Mel).

      Sandor kills The Mountain, and Arya gives him mercy.

      Arya possibly dies too.

      Sansa will be QOT7Ks and Tyrion will be her King consort. All the while they’ll know it was because they hadn’t kept silent, like Ned had all those years ago. And the 7 kingdoms bled as a result.

      Bittersweet ending and then some. Fade to black.

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    56. ChoppinBroccoli: ved the episode, by the way. I tend to find battles and strategy kind of boring, and quieter moments are far more interesting.
      Dany seems to be flagging right before the finish line. Which is a shame, since we’ve followed her journey all this time. I’m not sure Jon would ever agree to betray her. In fact, this episode showed that beyond Grey Worm and Tyrion, Jon is her main supporter now.

      There is no way Jon will continue to support her if she kills tens of thousands which is very likely. Not sure I see him killing her though unless she turns on him next and he feels forced to. I thought Arya may kill her though but that was used on the Night King, not sure I see her leaving to live in exile but that’s another possibility or her ruling over the ashes which feels way too bitter at this point.

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    57. kathy:
      Summer,

      Sansa is not in love with Jon, she’s in love with power.She has twice now put his life at risk for her own selfish purposes – people just refuse to see it but she is a child of Cersei and LittleFinger and she’s playing the game the way they taught her too.

      This show is about power and what people will do to get it, love has nothing to do with it.Jon, I hope, will end up back with Tormund and Ghost —away from all the machinations of the game players.He’s the only decent one of the bunch and he has refused to play their game from the start.

      If helping defend Winterfell from an undead army isn’t enough then nothing, it seems, will ever change people’s( read Sansa’s) minds about Dany. I just feel so so sad for Dany. Dany is the character I looked up to when life gave me a shit beating.. back in 2011.. if she can come back from that with three dragons.. I sure can live one more year and see if things will get better.. ( I know it’s foolish to invest in fictional character this much- but I did.. in a desperate pit of depression..it felt like hope).. and it just makes me sad… that she has to be this tragic character in the end.. 🙁

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    58. Cosca,

      I wouldn’t go as far as barely do shit, it pierced Drogon and nearly caused Dany to fall off. Had Bronn’s shot hit the dragon in the neck it may have died.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

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    59. George: I don’t know how “satisfying” people are going to think the ending is. (Which is probably why George has had writer’s block for years.)

      My Predictions:

      Jaime kills Cersei, dies in the KL fire.
      Arya gets sidetracked in her Cersei quest and ends up helping the Hound in his fight with The Mountain. Mountain defeated, The Hound gets mortally wounded and Arya mercy kills him.
      Dany roasts Euron and his fleet, along with most of King’s Landing.
      Dany goes full Mad Queen (Think Rhaenyra in George’s The Princess and the Queen) and Jon Snow ends up killing her.
      Jon Snow ends up on the Throne, establishes a Ruling Council to limit the power of the monarchy. (Davos, Tyrion, Sansa, Sweet Robin (LOL), etc.)

      Flashforward:
      Old Sam writes A Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe we see Old Jon as King, brooding into the distance. FINIS.

      I don’t think people will like it. LOL.

      Dany will execute Tyrion of course. How else will viewers turn against her? Not even burning the city will stop fans from wanting her to win. But kill our favourite Lannister- there is no mercy for you.

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    60. Reek:
      Adam,

      Why did you keep watching then?

      I keep watching because I still enjoy it. Season 6 was actually my favorite season, in spite of the general backslide of the plot. So many big payoffs to things set in motion decades ago. I love these characters and I love this world. I go to Con of Thrones and dress as Khal Drogo every year. My cat is named Rhaegal. No matter how disappointed I may be by the ridiculous contrivances the writers come up with to make the ending they know has to happen happen, I still want to see it.

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    61. In BTS video Dan and David said that Dany “forgot about Euron and his ships.”

      Sad that the show I loved will come to an end with writing like this.

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    62. One of the best written TV episodes of all time…

      The Internet: “Well, it had a lot of problems and I’m mad about XYZ. It sucked!!”

      When a show gets too big…. haters gonna hate.

      We are getting a proper conclusion to a great show. Can’t ask for anything more.

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    63. My general feeling this whole season is just that almost everything needs a bit more time to get the feels right. Aside from episode 2, so much just doesn’t have time to simmer and get the right texture and depth.

      I really really liked the funeral and the feast in this episode. I also very much liked Euron’s attack on the fleet. That felt like an earned surprise.

      But Dany’s arrival outside the walls didn’t feel developed. A bit of time with her processing her state of mind about the loss of Missandei and another dragon first would have helped. Maybe a scene with Grey Worm, and an attempted strategy session with Tyrion.

      Also I get that they are showing Sansa as guarded and keeping her schemes to herself but she needs more TIME to show that she is THINKING. Her reaction to Jon’s news mattered, as did Arya’s and we needed to see something even if it left us guessing about what they might do. Now we know that Jon said he was not a Stark, and Tyrion mentioned to Sansa that he had said that in the past to him. Maybe she thinks that means he can be safe in the South while other Starks were not, or maybe she thinks that means he doesn’t feel like one of them. Either way he has proved his is bone-headed strategically, and she can’t confide in him what her plans are, even if her plan is to make him King of Westeros.

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    64. I think the episode would have been much better if 10 minutes or so were cut. This didn’t seem like an episode that needed to be so extended. Seems like they just extended it because it is one of the finale episodes. That finale scene was one of the most intense scenes GoT has ever had.

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    65. PromiseMeNed:
      Sansa is little finger incarnate she will betray anyone to become queen in the North Arya saw through her once when she discover how Sansa had betrayed her father and family for her silly dream of becoming the queen of the seven kingdom,her telling Tyrion Jon’s identity just put a target mark on Jon she may pretend but we all know she has no love for anyone but herself and power ,she is Cercei & Littlefinger combined. It sucks that she wont die as she is far away from the war but i believe she deserves to die

      Daenerys is no mad queen anyone who has just suffered her tragedy would react the same … her mistake was making Tyrion her hand and letting him fill her head with this saving the people nonsense, she should have stuck to her initial plan and burntthe red keep from the start now she will lose everything… She deserves better but unfortunately she fell in love with a truthful idiot and trusted schemers and now that Jorah is gone she has no one in her corner which is the saddest part no matter how they paint her as evil in my opinion she will forever be the hero of this series.

      As for Cercei well played , she deserves the most painful death ever and i hope they don’t give her a quick death , her tyranny has went on long enough and its about time for it to end

      Here Here! She is my hero too

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    66. Couldn’t they just……..

      starve Cersei out??? Why do none of Danys advisers offer any advise? Cuz shes just gotta go crazy at the 11th hour? Every single plot development that has weakened her since season 7 has made no sense.

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    67. Someone (Varys? Sansa?Arya?Bron?) will assassinate Cersi and Dany. Tristan has probably become Prince of Dorne and has a grudge against Cersi for breaking up his wedding plans thus causing the death of Myrcella.

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    68. EasyEams,

      Just saw that. I’m kinda shocked actually. Surely, seeing as they took so much extra time on this last season, the writing should not be that sloppy. I feel like we’re missing something here.

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    69. I can’t say it’s exactly book canon ,GRRM does say dragons can be brought down, but he also says it’s harder than the show depicts.
      Supposedly weapon makers are more savvy since the time of Aegon the Conqueror could be.
      One lesson not learned , after the Battle North of the Wall, is battle tactics for dragons.
      Rhaegal’s loss seemed too easy, I thought HBO had an open pocketbook this season for VFX? Sure helped out the billing department , got rid of Ghost too.
      I guess at this late date Dany has had no time to consult about the military use of dragons , I am guessing a history existed , Sam would of had access?
      Dany goes into battle dressed for the Met Gala Ball and no thought is ever given to dragon barding at all.

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    70. I shared my initial thoughts on the live stream at 4am and I haven’t really changed my mind about any of them. I loved this episode. I actually enjoyed the shift from the good tidings at Winterfell to the sudden carnage in the south and as sad as I am that Missandei has died (as I was so desperate for Missandei and Grey Worm to realise their dream and sail to Naath at the end of 806 – to be a part of the sweet part of the bitter), it did feel very much like the Game of Thrones of old. We haven’t had a death like this in several seasons – one caused by human treachery that was executed in cold blood that will have long lasting ramifications. Oddly, I didn’t see Littlefinger’s death in the same light. That felt like it came after a season’s incomprehensible behaviour from the Stark sisters and felt forced. Missandei’s unfortunate demise felt different. It felt raw, meaningful, shocking. It has also solidified Cersei’s villain role and taken her beyond the realm of any redemption because now she has killed a character who was so very good and loved. There’s no coming back from this for her.

      I am most concerned for Jon and I am worried that I am going to be desperately sad in two episodes time. Inconsolably sad. I don’t think he will die next week in the battle. I actually don’t know if we will lose a lot of our main characters next week because there is still a near 80-minute finale to come after next week’s episode and if you kill the main sources of the human drama before the end then what will they fill all that time with? I imagine most main characters and many secondary/tertiary characters will make it to the last episode (including Cersei, Jon and Dany) but that’s not to say I don’t expect deaths next week. I am sure there will be shocking deaths, but if you remove the main chess pieces for the throne, what is the final episode going to be filled with? George may have an extended appendix detailing the aftermath of his game of thrones, but for a TV medium, a near hour and a half of endings isn’t terribly compelling if all the action and intrigue is over in the penultimate episode.

      In terms of Jon’s chances, I’m now 99% sure he will die, but only because I need to protect myself and am telling myself he will die. There are actually some thoughts that keep reading their heads and I am trying to shut them down to stop myself getting too hopeful.
      1. Jon has been in the sacrificial hero arc from very early on. George likes to subvert tropes and expectations. Most people surely now expect Jon to die? What if Jon doesn’t get his wish? He couldn’t sacrifice himself to kill the NK. Maybe he won’t get to sacrifice himself fighting for what he feels is right. Maybe he outlives them all (you’ll be fighting their battles forever), be it north of the wall or in KL. Maybe Jon’s hidden king identity will be subverted too and he remains true to his word that he doesn’t want the throne and disappears north of the wall for the remainder of his days?
      2. It felt a bit too neat – tying up his loose ends in the north. It felt like they are trying to get us to think he is going to die. They may have been misdirecting.
      3. Ghost is going to live on, which implies Jon might. What if Ghost is a foil for Jon? Ghost gets to go north and be free, but Jon has to live on serving as king and feeling trapped by his duty and honour.
      4. There has to be some sweet part to this ending, unless they have been lying and the ending is just mostly pain and misery for the characters they have made us love and throw our lot in with for the past 8 years (linger for books-first fans). You could interpret this as a fair and just ruler taking the throne to rebuild the seven kingdoms who is beloved and takes his duty to his people more seriously than any other. I do think Jon is the realm’s best chance at reconciliation and he is loved as shown by the feast scene. Maybe this is too sweet.

      I am clearly in the stage of grief where you try to argue/barter your way out of the inevitable heartbreak. Like I say, I’m 90% convinced he does.

      Filming news spoiler:

      We know Jon and Cersei meet in KL. his hair is messed up, he hasn’t got his sword. Cersei is flanked by her Kings Guard. That doesn’t look good for him. I think he is captured during the battle and the scene they filmed is from 806. It would make sense to keep something so grave and climactic till the end and D&D were on set, which might imply 806 as they are directing that one. She had better not kill him!!!! I will riot. Maybe Arya and Sandor can save the day by choosing this moment to rock up for Clegane-bowl, list crossing off? It would be the least satisfying end to Jon. I can’t imagine anything worse.

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    71. EasyEams: In BTS video Dan and David said that Dany “forgot about Euron and his ships.”

      Sad that the show I loved will come to an end with writing like this.

      It is noticeable, so far, that Bruce Cogman and Dave Hill have written better episodes than D&D…. the prime showrunners showing impatience to get the story over with and are not as careful as they were in seasons past? It it the absence of GRRM’s story?

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    72. I rather enjoyed the episode, hard to believe there is so much hate and 1 votes on IMDB today. Yes it had some flaws and contrivances which shouldn’t be ignored but I was surprised how quickly 80 mins went. Plenty of very involving and some intense scenes even if clearly not up to the standards of earlier seasons.

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    73. cosca,

      Wow, your not joking, a 7.7 on imdb. It is not the writing that has gone off the rails, it is this fandom. It is sad that this great show is clearly judged in a different manner than all other entertainment. It is kind of depressing but I tell myself that when future viewers discover this show it will be more fairly judged without this toxic fandom influencing peoples perceptions of the show.

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    74. The whole tragedy with Rhaegal being shot down / fleet decimated / Missandei captured and killed could have been easily avoidable. Bran can see the past and present clearly, he was present during the war council. I understand that he is detached most of the time and needs someone to focus his attention on specific topic to find out detailed information, but come on! By this time most of the key characters are familiar with his power! Why none of them tried to do a ‘google search’ right then and there about: what are the assets / forces under Cercei control? Where are her armies located? What weapons do they have? etc. The fact that they failed to utilize their most reliable source of information is beyond me.

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    75. I still have questions….
      Did Gendry go with John then?
      Did Sam and Gilly return to Castle Black or did they go to Sams family home ?
      Seeing as Arya and The Hound left 1st are they already inside Kings Landing .
      Will Ghost and Nymeria team up ?
      Tyrion should have said to Celesi “ To think about your baby And Jamie’s “ out loud in front of Euron letting him know it’s not his….Just to see his reaction

      So many questions to answer in such a very small space and time.

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    76. Che,

      I remember that. Now I’m recalling after last season an interview with the show runners and Lena + Kit were part of the convo, or maybe just one of them, where the former said they wrote a sexy scene for the latter they would like. I can’t find it now but I distinctly remember it being talked about online about it being an odd comment and what it could mean and then months later we saw what you are referring.

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    77. WhiteSparkle,

      Why did they think they could negotiate with Cersei about Missandei when she has currently has the upper hand?).

      They didn’t. Remember the dialogue, Dany wanted the people to know she attempted a peaceful resolution so when she rains fire down on Kingslanding they should blame Cersei for not submitting.

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    78. I only read this site and twitter, largely my perception is that’s been widely positive but with a few haters on twitter like yeahclarke who are angry that Dany could turn out to be a villain. Indeed most criticism is aimed at the likely arc of Dany rather than anything else in the episode other than one of two haters complaining that killing Missandei was somehow racist. Reading people like Kim Renfro, Luka Neito, Jo Robinson they are complimentary and that reassured me also.

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    79. fdr,

      I think it was Jon. He even gave her that look in the beginning of the celebration, as if he was urging her to do something they had agreed previously. And it makes sense: Jon or at least Sansa should have noticed that there was something beween Arya and Gendy, so they should have been working on creating preconditions for Gendry to propose. I meen, Jon should have seen him as a worthy guy and Arya’s own choice, so he would have wanted his little sis to be happy and Sansa would have wanted her to mary at least a formal “lord”.

      Unfortunately, Arya… I don’t even know where to start. I had a feeling that Arya’s tomboyishness won’t go unpunished, but I didn’t expet it to happen in such a gutwrecking way. Girl! You broke your vow: you promised to be a family to Gendry! Doesn’t matter, whether it’s “you” or “not you” – you gave your word. And you broke it. And what is this “I don’t need allies”? You survived, cause someone was always looking after you. Ned’s poor bones should rise from the crypts for the second time and give a proper flogging to his younger daugther (and don’t even let me start on Sansa). In general, the last of the Starks are toning into new Cesrseis: anyone who isn’t us is an enemy and all that jazz. Now I can only hope that House Stark gets ripped out route and stem along with the whole Northern independence idea, as those who don’t take responsibility for their allies dezerve zero independence and only compromitate true independence seakers in both fictional and real world. Wildlings are the only ones who have erned independence in my eyes at this point.

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    80. Someone posted on reddit a picture from the episode that has starbucks coffee cup in the winterfell… lols 🙂

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    81. JamesL:
      cosca,

      Wow, your not joking, a 7.7 on imdb. It is not the writing that has gone off the rails, it is this fandom. It is sad that this great show is clearly judged in a different manner than all other entertainment. It is kind of depressing but I tell myself that when future viewers discover this show it will be more fairly judged without this toxic fandom influencing peoples perceptions of the show.

      Toxic Nerd Culture. They hate anything that gets too popular. Sort of mimics their real lives.

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    82. The standoff outside King’s Landing at the end is one of the show’s dumbest setpieces. There is no reason whatsoever that Cersei couldn’t just kill them all right there (between the ballistas that we’ve just seen shred ships and the fact that Dany has maybe forty people with her and Cersei has tens of thousands), and she’s explicitly being characterized as bound by no regard for norms such as parlay. Missandei’s final word was pretty cool, I will admit.

      Even accepting that the rudiments of this plot could have worked, things are proceeding at such a blinding pace that the plot has no time to breathe. This is epitomized by Jon’s parentage reveal, which basically nobody treats as anything other than a plot device in the game of thrones. We don’t even get a proper reaction from Arya. The show feels like the abridged version of itself at this point.

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    83. I know some people are getting very upset that the signs are pointing to Dany becoming the “mad queen” and probably not making it through the end of the series as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Meanwhile, attentive book readers have seen this coming for a decade.

      You can’t possibly expect to be seen as the “savior” when you invade with good intentions and execute your enemies by setting them on fire. Dany is done. And Jon will not sit the Iron Throne either because HE DOES NOT WANT IT. This episode set up the clear heir to the throne (if there even is one) and that is Gendry.

      And while Gendry wants to marry Arya, he will likely marry Sansa (who knows what makes for a good political move), ending the series on the promise Ned and Robert made to each other, marrying their kids to each other and having them rule the kingdom.

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    84. All I want to say is that I think Daenerys being on a road to full-blown vengeance madness is in character and so is Jaime returning to Cersei. Bron, same thing.

      I’m good.

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    85. JamesL:
      WhiteSparkle,

      They didn’t. Remember the dialogue, Dany wanted the people to know she attempted a peaceful resolution so when she rains fire down on Kingslanding they should blame Cersei for not submitting.

      It seems Dany forgot Jorah’s words of wisdom:

      “The common people pray for rain, health, and a summer that never ends. They don’t care what games the high lords play.”

      I’m liking the season so far but it is also disappointing. Everything is just so condensed, it’s like this happens and that happens but what about the why and how?

      It feels like they are ticking off GRRM’s bullet points to reach the end. That is if they are still going for his ending.

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    86. Sean C.:
      The standoff outside King’s Landing at the end is one of the show’s dumbest setpieces.There is no reason whatsoever that Cersei couldn’t just kill them all right there (between the ballistas that we’ve just seen shred ships and the fact that Dany has maybe forty people with her and Cersei has tens of thousands), and she’s explicitly being characterized as bound by no regard for norms such as parlay.Missandei’s final word was pretty cool, I will admit.

      Even accepting that the rudiments of this plot could have worked, things are proceeding at such a blinding pace that the plot has no time to breathe.This is epitomized by Jon’s parentage reveal, which basically nobody treats as anything other than a plot device in the game of thrones.We don’t even get a proper reaction from Arya.The show feels like the abridged version of itself at this point.

      She knows if she kills Dany, that the dragon kills her. Hence why there was a standoff. Cersei doesn’t want to die. It makes perfect sense.

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    87. This felt like Game of Thrones of old. Great episode.

      David Rosenblatt I enjoyed your refreshing take/views of things.

      I cannot believe the treatment Dany is receiving…from Jon, the North and the writers.

      Jon refused the entreaties of the woman who passionately loves him.
      Arya refused the youthful entreaties of a Lord who loves her.
      Jaime Lannister finally proved (what I’ve known all along) that he is worthless and rotten to the core by refusing the entreaties of the woman who loves him.

      So Kit Harrington was obviously alluding to ‘A Lover’s Complaint’ when he termed the episode “Shakespearian?” Indeed it was.

      Poor Rhaegal and Messandei! I weep just as profoundly as Dany and Grey Worm, respectively. What a tragedy.

      Now from the sublime to the ridiculous. I have never laughed so much as at this video!

      “Let me explain something to you now. Who the real enemy is; Cersei. Let me tell you something Cersei: You better pull out your BEST mean outfit BITCH, cause if we fought THESE MOTHERFUCKERS? we finny tare yo ass up! SHAME! HO! SHAME!”

      [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDz5lro_hrM&w=560&h=315%5D

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    88. Apollo:
      Am I the only one who didn’t want to see Brienne and Jaime get it on? For me, the agony of unrequited love was always what attracted me to their story. Now they’ve bumped uglies that magic is gone and their parting scene seemed a little soap opera like. Although it’s clear he’s being a douche to go do the right thing.

      On the other hand I AM pleased Arya told Gendry to take his ladyship and stick it up his bung hole. Totally faithful to her character…

      …Jon never even ruffled ghosts ear to say goodbye??! WTAF?! Ghost’s sad whine really kicked me in the guts- more than anything this episode! Very badly handled D&D!

      I see Kings Landing has teleported from being on a narrow peninsula shouldered by hills, to a wide flat plain. Huh.

      Agree on the above points.
      I love Jaime and Brienne but I was surprised when they started ripping off each other’s clothes. THAT aspect of their relationship needed more time to develop. Her “knighting” scene played out beautifully because there was a subtlety in their unspoken love for each other.

      Jon not giving Ghost a proper good-bye really bothered me. Direwolf vs dragon; Stark vs Targaryen…whatever. Hug your gorgeous, sad, brave puppy dog!

      The entrance to Kings Landing confused me as well. It took me a minute to figure out where they were.

      Overall, I enjoyed the episode, despite being heartbroken about lovely Misandei’s death. Glad that Tormund gets to live free and wild in the North with the other wildlings.

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    89. GeekFurious:
      I know some people are getting very upset that the signs are pointing to Dany becoming the “mad queen” and probably not making it through the end of the series as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Meanwhile, attentive book readers have seen this coming for a decade.

      You can’t possibly expect to be seen as the “savior” when you invade with good intentions and execute your enemies by setting them on fire. Dany is done. And Jon will not sit the Iron Throne either because HE DOES NOT WANT IT. This episode set up the clear heir to the throne (if there even is one) and that is Gendry.

      And while Gendry wants to marry Arya, he will likely marry Sansa (who knows what makes for a good political move), ending the series on the promise Ned and Robert made to each other, marrying their kids to each other and having them rule the kingdom.

      Unless George intends to write another series of books about the next civil war that would break out across Westeros should Gendry, a legitimised bastard with no proof of his parentage, be sat on the throne, then I don’t see this happening. The lords of Westeros are not going to allow that to happen without challenging it. Cersei is tolerated because she is absolutely insane and they’re all afraid of her, but Gendry, a good character with no proof to back up his birthright, wouldn’t have such an easy time sitting on that iron chair. He wouldn’t have the realm behind him. Varys is worried about Dany not having the support of the lords (when compared to Jon) because she’s a woman – can you imagine how they would feel about the bastard son of a prostitute/peasant (can’t remember if she was a prostitute)? Legitimised or no, there is no proof of his birthright and the lords of the realm are too proud and bigoted to allow the son of a prostitute/peasant to sit on the throne.

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    90. Inga,

      > I think it was Jon.

      Finally some politics from Jon. I like to think he rather told Dany for political reasons than because he wanted to find a match for his independent sister (if for anyone he did it for Daenerys).

      Anyway, it makes it all the more ironic that he expects his sisters to keep his parentage secret while he doesn’t with Gendry (true, he didn’t promise and Gendry didn’t ask so either, but Davos clearly said “he was meant to keep that to himself”)

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    91. WhiteSparkle,

      I totally agree. I also love the show, but it seems like the writers have just been in a hurry to wrap things up for the last couple seasons and have the characters doing all sorts of stupid things they would never have done in the books. My biggest problem with this episode was Euron’s ambush. They have (had) two dragons, did it not occur to any of these now seasoned warriors to, you know, do some aerial reconnaissance before approaching an island super close to King’s Landing? And did they seriously just forget about the dragon-killing crossbows? Did they not think Cersei would build a whole lot more of them? That whole part, with the deaths of Rhaegal and Missandei, was lazy and seemed super contrived to push Dany into turning into the mad queen.

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    92. JamesL: It is sad that this great show is clearly judged in a different manner than all other entertainment.

      You’re dead right about that. With a normal show you’d judge it against the quality of other shows. But for some reason, Game of Thrones can only every be compared to a) itself or b) the books, and thus always comes up lacking

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    93. Its sad seeing Danys final tragic character trajectory happening so fast.

      The seeds of her violent ruthless nature were planted for a long time.
      But to wake up one morning and see seeds as full grown oak trees?

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    94. Che,

      I agree, Gendry can maybe hold the Stormlands because his overlord gives him support and he’s a Baratheon, but no way that the rest of Westeros would accept him as their King. Similarly for those who predict Tyrion and Sansa in the end: Sansa could have the support of three kingdoms, but Tyrion has not even the support of the Westerlands, and why would e.g. the Reach or Dorne follow them? And from Sansa’s own perspective, the Reach and Dorne should have all reason to claim independence. I find it even hard that Dorne would follow Jon, when they know he’s the son of Lyanna.

      It’s either Daenerys, Jon, Jon with Sansa (a policial union!) or Jon with Yara 😉
      (or no throne at all and 7 independent kingdoms founding the Economic Community of Westeros)

      It would be funny if Jon and Sansa had to tell Arya and Bran to finally grow up because someone of these two will have to do their duty as lord/lady of Winterfell.

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    95. No matter what happens next, Dany can’t be happy.
      Jon can’t be happy.
      Bran can never feel happiness
      Arya can’t be happy. And I’m wondering where the hell is sweet in this ? Sam surviving ? As much as I like the guy, his ridiculous plot armour is too thick to neglect . Also Missandei died. Let me go and cry again

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    96. HelloThere:
      Its sad seeing Danys final tragic character trajectory happening so fast.

      The seeds of her violent ruthless nature were planted for a long time.
      But to wake up one morning and see seeds as full grown oak trees?

      Dany threatened to burn cities to the ground during season 2. During seasons 5 and 6 they continued to showcase that he tenancies were more evil.

      Not sure how that makes the turn “fast”. It was always there. It got triggered by her friend getting killed in front of her.

      It has been well established that Missandei is a very good translator but has no real tactical abilities in war. And yet it is her last word that Dant will cling to to justify burning innocent people.

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    97. Eurons ships has scorpions only on one side, so just fly behind them and burn them all. I am not upset on how the story is going, only on the stupid things they show us how it is happening like we all saw the north is defeated, nearly no human left and now they only lost half their armies. There are too much points that are just not comprehensive so I understand why a lot of people are upset and disappointed.

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    98. Debbie:

      Did Sam and Gilly return to Castle Black or did they go to Sams family home ?

      I’m thinking Sam and Gilly returned to the Citadel as the “Maester Theme was playing as Jon talked to them and I’ve not heard that theme since season 6 when they arrived in Old Town just as the white ravens took flight.

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    99. viki:
      S8E4 – the Day the Ships Died

      RIP Arya and Gendry
      RIP Brienne and Jamie
      RIP Dany and Jon
      RIP Missandi and Grey Worm
      RIP Sansa and Sandor
      RIP Sansa and Tyrion

      Ha ha! Very good!

      I’ve gotta admit, they shocked me with Arya and Gendry. Once he got legitimized at the beginning, I thought it’d be clear sailing for the Arya + Gendry ship. (So now what happens if she’s preggers?)

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    100. Best thing now seems they should have flown Bran south on a dragon, snuk him into KL, and put him in some hidden place in KL, and let the NK come for him there.

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    101. fdr,

      “Btw, I am also wondering, if Euron knows that Tyrion knows that Cersei is pregnant, doesn’t he then also know that the child isn’t his, even when Cersei is pretending that? Any repercussions here?”

      ______
      Moon tea. Bye bye incest bastard baby.

      RIP Tyvek Lannister

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    102. They said Dany FORGOT about Euron and his ships????? *headsmack*

      COME ON.

      Yes, I suspect that many are right, that we all have notions of what we want for our characters, and as they don’t seem to work out, we will lash out. But also, some of the complaints are valid.

      And count me in the EWWW corner for Jamie and Brienne’s love scene. I couldn’t even watch it. LOL It was no surprise to me that he left, he’ll never be free of Cersei, they are intertwined, I expect to the death.

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    103. Ten Bears:
      fdr,

      “Btw, I am also wondering, if Euron knows that Tyrion knows that Cersei is pregnant, doesn’t he then also know that the child isn’t his, even when Cersei is pretending that? Any repercussions here?”

      ______ Moon tea. Bye bye incest bastard baby.

      RIP Tyvek Lannister

      Yes, you are right – Euron, if he is not as dumb as the the showrunners seem to think the fans are, must know, that when Tyrion knows Cersey is pregnant, it must have been already before he had a chance to do that.
      But I do not longer trust the showrunners to take care of this although Euron gave a weired look when he heard it.

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    104. WhiteSparkle,

      You have to remember Dany’s attempted negotiation was not because she thought it would be successful it was so she could say to the Lords and Commoners that hey I tried but Cersei is not reasonable. Also if you still need character development in what we knew was the final season then you were never going to be happy with the final season…just saying

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    105. George: I don’t know how “satisfying” people are going to think the ending is. (Which is probably why George has had writer’s block for years.)

      My Predictions:

      Jaime kills Cersei, dies in the KL fire.
      Arya gets sidetracked in her Cersei quest and ends up helping the Hound in his fight with The Mountain. Mountain defeated, The Hound gets mortally wounded and Arya mercy kills him.
      Dany roasts Euron and his fleet, along with most of King’s Landing.
      Dany goes full Mad Queen (Think Rhaenyra in George’s The Princess and the Queen) and Jon Snow ends up killing her.
      Jon Snow ends up on the Throne, establishes a Ruling Council to limit the power of the monarchy. (Davos, Tyrion, Sansa, Sweet Robin (LOL), etc.)

      Flashforward:
      Old Sam writes A Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe we see Old Jon as King, brooding into the distance. FINIS.

      I don’t think people will like it. LOL.

      I would say you have some of it right. The Mountain is on Arya’s list, so I don’t think she gets sidetracked. Both Cersei and the Mountain are the only ones left on her list.
      I think you are right that she will come to Sandor’s aid with the mountain and then finish Sandor with a mercy kill. I’m not sure if they will let Arya be the one to kill Cersei. It’s a bit like letting Jon kill the NK; it’s the expected choice. I think if she would have been in Dany’s corner, then she would have volunteered to help take care of Cersei while the troops and Rhaegal had time to recover. With her FM skills, she can read people and she couldn’t trust Dany.

      So what is Dany’s tragic flaw then? Was her one huge mistake burning the Tarley’s? She made a similar mistake executing the boy in Meereen. I think her biggest flaw is her desire for the IT above all else. She did snap out of it for a time when she came to Jon’s (and the world’s aid), but what did that get her? She lost 1/2 her army and now Jon won’t put her first. Jon still puts his family over her. As Sam asked, would she be as willing to give up the crown for her people as Jon did? She reminds me a bit of Stannis at this point. Stannis started off with a huge powerful army which ended up dwindling down. Dany really has been left isolated. At least Tyrion is sticking by her side. Everyone else has died or turned against her. I would have at least re-called the 2nd sons and waited to attack KL until they arrived. I don’t know if I agree that Jon will be the one to kill Dany though.

      I have a feeling we have seen the last of Sam and Gilly. It’s also possible we’ve seen the last of Sansa unless they just show some final shots in the episode 6 to wrap things up with all of our characters. I was really sad during the Jon’s goodbyes, because I think we were seeing the last of many of our favorite characters (at least in regards to any contribution to the end game). I think Brienne, Sansa, Bran, Sam, Gilly, Tormund, and Ghost may have all finished their arcs. I hope I’m wrong and they still have something in mind for Bran with his 3ER, but I have a feeling the show has left most of the magic behind now as they focus on the human drama.

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    106. I think, on the main, the reaction to fans depends on who they “like” among the POV characters on the show.

      Dany lovers are salty today. Sansa haters continue to hate. The shippers — all the shippers, everywhere — are both happy and upset.

      I thought the episode was great and felt much more like GRRM than anything we’ve seen in a while. The divisions between Jon and Dany seemed real. The way out of the mess – a marriage – is foreclosed by Dany’s lust for power (she is plainly a power hungry usurper now, there’s no spinning out of that) and Jon’s squeamishness over not wanting to marry his Aunt.

      Characters act based on their motivations and nature, everything rolls out logically. Conflict happens and drama results.

      By the way, the scorpions on the walls of KL are mounted to guard against an air attack. They can’t depress and lower their angle of attack to hit Dany that close to the wall. And they are beyond arrow range.

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    107. Jon’s goodbye to Lyanna absolutely broke my heart. After seeing the preview, I’d wondered which pyre he’d be setting alight and Lyanna was the perfect choice: named after his mother, niece to his Lord Commander, the fierce little bear who’d made him king, defended his home and in the end gave everything for the protection of the North. RIP House Mormont.

      Loved each and every one of the moments between Tormund and Jon. If they couldn’t give us some nice fuzzy moments between Jon and Ghost, at least we got these – the friendship between Tormund and Jon is so genuine and tender. Tormund’s reassurance to Jon that he’ll always have the North inside him was touching. I’d have loved to see how Tormund got on in the South, but it’s time for him to go home.

      Daenerys looked so lost and unsure at that feast. I’d hoped Jon could reassure her, but even if she believes him, she can’t trust what others will do. That fleeting glimpse at Jon’s room made me wonder – it’s not the Lord’s chamber as he’s given that to Sansa, and it looked too nice a room for Catelyn Stark to allow a bastard. Robb’s room perhaps? That’s my headcanon now, anyway.

      I wish they’d included Sansa, Arya and Tyrion’s reactions to the news of Jon’s parentage. I know those scenes can get repetitive, but the omissions felt sloppy, considering the build-up. And come on, we live for reaction shots – just look at all the YouTube videos devoted to that purpose!

      While she did break her word to Jon, I understood why Sansa did as she did. She doesn’t trust Daenerys and as she put it to Jon last season, “you’re good at this.” That Jon is focused on something other than Winterfell must also have crossed her mind – he wouldn’t ever take it from her, but their bannermen would eventually try to seat him.

      Could have done without setting it on a rocking boat about to be attacked, but glad Tyrion and Varys had a moment to start scheming over the succession, setting the stage for their later conversation on Dragonstone. I’d argue that Jon’s already proved that he can temper Daenerys’ worst impulses (talking her out of attacking KL last season), but I could understand their fear that his desire to prove he’s not out to steal the throne from her would lead him to submit on more issues than he’d usually.

      Dragonstone transforming from the site of Dany’s joyous, triumphant return to Westeros to one of pain and sorrow following Euron’s attack was so haunting. I wonder how many scenes we’ll watch back after the series is done with heavy hearts, knowing what’s to come.

      Missandei’s death was devastating – beautiful performances by Nathalie Emmanuel, Jacob Anderson and Emilia Clarke. Given the reception they’ve had in Westeros, I don’t blame Missandei one bit for wanting to take every one of them out. Exquisite job (as usual) by Lena Headey – she manages to portray Cersei as both human and monster so effortlessly. That jibe about the “Breaker of Chains”!

      Rhaegal’s not dead until I see his corpse mounted on Euron Greyjoy’s ship. I refuse to believe it. Supremely irked at Daenerys for flying him out even though he was still healing – no wonder he couldn’t dodge as readily.

      My MVP remains Kit Harington. Jon’s not particularly emotive, but he feels as much as any of them (probably more, the ball of broody angst he is) and Kit had so much to convey this episode, from the tribute at the start, where he had to communicate somehow that what they’d been through and the people they’d lost would mean something, to going from relieved celebration with his friends and wanting a good night’s sleep after everything to reassuring his aunt/love that he’s not out to get her, to standing up to his family on Daenery’s behalf (“if you only trust the people you grow up with, you won’t make many allies”) to telling his family he’s not one of them (I repeat, wish we’d seen Arya’s reaction as she’d tell him not to be so stupid!), to the delighted joy at Gilly and Sam’s news, to bidding adieu to Tormund and Ghost. I wish he’d give Ghost a snuggle, but perhaps he didn’t want to make it more painful than it was. In many ways, Jon was the emotional centre of this episode, if not this season so far. He’s got an uphill battle now that the Army of the Dead no longer compels his friends and allies to work together. I don’t envy him the wars to come, though I am so curious where he goes from here, especially as his name remains on everyone’s lips.

      Cosca:

      Bronn never really intended to kill Jaime and Tyrion, he was just getting some longstanding revenge on 2 friends who had jerked him around for a long time.

      This. In the end people do what they want to do and Bronn wanted his castle AND his buddies. He also knows Cersei’s not one for honouring promises to people she doesn’t think anything of – she only honoured repaying the Iron Bank because she would get something out of it.

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    108. ChoppinBroccoli,

      It wasn’t moments. It would have taken time to organise the army before they marched to Winterfell. And yes, Jon does share a greater blame. Dany asked him not to say anything – especially to Sansa and she gave him the reason why he shouldn’t. And he did it anyway. If there’s lots of blabbing going on, let’s not forget who started it. Jon.

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    109. GeekFurious,
      Meanwhile, attentive book readers have seen this coming for a decade

      I haven’t read the books but a certain poster who has read them used to call out me and a few others repeatedly for stating the possibility of Dany turning “mad” in the end. At length he would describe how we are so wrong because we don’t know her like from the books. It made me question my comprehension of characterization and foreshadowing clues. I feel bad for this poster right now because they are heavily invested in Dany having a good ending replete with a sense of belonging and family.

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    110. Adam,

      While I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment, it was extremely well-written and well-argued, and I loved the sports metaphors. 🏀

      On a semi-related note… I wonder how much lower the total body count would’ve been if Dany had simply nuked the Red Keep at the beginning. Yes, maybe a bunch of people would’ve been fried, but how many people have died in the battles since the initial invasion plan failed?

      I’m with Missandei: At this point Dany should go full Dracarys! while she still has a nuke left.

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    111. Sean C.,

      I agree. What makes it even more disheartening is how they essentially told us it won’t be rushed (taking two years to do it right) but will come off as being adhesive as there’s not that much more story to tell.

      Have Jon show affection for Ghost? Something so simple but meaningful? Nope.
      Show a Stark family reaction after big reveal Jon true parentage? Something fandom has looked forward to for a long time? Nope.
      Destroy all love matches or potential pairing that fans would feel warm fuzzies over? Yep.

      The nihilistic story of the human characters is just as fantastical as the dragons, faceless men, and a 3 eyed raven.

      I do hold small hopes for next 2 episodes to have some upturn.

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    112. PromiseMeNed,

      I am trying hard not to come off as a Sansaphobe… but couldn’t she keep her promise longer than ten minutes? She swore to keep the secret that poor Ned kept secret his whole adult life despite much greater pressures.

      Varys and Tyrion are right: Now that 8 people know the “secret” it’s no longer a secret.

      Why, Sansa, why?

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    113. Dyanna,

      Varys may very well try to take out Dany. And as she promised, she will roast him alive with dragonfire.

      Dany is really getting shafted this season. After all she did to save the North, she’s being treated like an interloper.

      P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?

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    114. Meg: Dany asked him not to say anything – especially to Sansa and she gave him the reason why he shouldn’t.

      Because she is a power hungry usurper with no right to the Throne, you mean? And she doesn’t want people to know she has no claim? Because then they might support the man who does?

      I see.

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    115. Steel_Wind,

      Jon doesn’t want the throne, as he repeatedly says. Dany is completely correct that if that’s the case he shouldn’t tell anyone — she specifically predicts exactly what Sansa will do, while Jon denies it.

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    116. ygritte,

      I am concerned at the moment for the ending of this story. I am also worried that GRRM (and as a result D&D) wanted to break the wheel so badly himself, that he has come up with an ending that is just bleak and hopeless. I wonder if the bulk of audience members are ready for a story where most, of not all, the characters they most care about are either killed or have a deeply unhappy ending to their stories. It may be more realistic and it may be unexpected, but I feel for most, it would be deeply unsatisfying.

      I am also concerned at what’s to cone with regards to a quote, I can’t which cast/crew member said it, that there is another red-wedding-esque WTF moment coming. We know from filming news that a lot of the cast gathered at the dragon pit. What if Cersei blows them all to hell with wild fire? Most of our cast gone. They couldn’t do that could they?

      I feel so nervous. If this goes as bleak as I am expecting, I may have to write my own fanfic ending for my peace of mind!! I haven’t written fan fiction in ages, not since my early twenties Harry Potter obsession days.

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    117. ygritte,

      I wasn’t that particular poster and I haven’t read the books, but I also felt that Dany would still choose “home” above “throne”, a.k.a. Jorah’s statement “you have a gentle heart”. Also Tyrion and Jon seemed to think so, as well as the Essosi like Missandei or Grey Worm. But maybe Jon was right and the people will “see her for what she truly is”. Also the Mad King was “such a charmer” before his malady, according to Pycelle.

      I have the impressing that Daenerys becomes more agressive/paranoid when she gets singled out (like in the Winterfell Hall) and that is not going to get better, especially because she also likes to be more special than the rest. I can accept it’s going the other way than I had hoped, after generations of incest the apple shouldn’t fall far from the tree. After she reacted so negatively to not being the last Targaryen anymore in E2, I changed my mind.

      The way Jon spoke at the ceremony and was not mentioned by name when all cheered for their victory, gives me courage he will make it in the end. If he were a goner, they would have given him more spotlight.

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    118. I understand. Humans do more damage than death itself.
      This episodes combines great storytelling with rubbish though…

      Dany lost so many forces because Euron snuck 3 times in a row. On Yara, on the Unsullied at Casterly Rock, and now he hides behind a mountain. From there, he shoots “smart” crossbows and kills Rhaegal. After that, Dany does not turn to burn the ships from the back (the ballistas were on the front).
      Why do you ruin smart things with nonsense like this ???

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    119. B,

      If D&D took 5+ years to write every season, the writing would probably be better. But by the last season the child actors would be retired and the older actors would be dead.

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    120. Che,

      There’s no coming back from this for her.

      I think it’s safe to say, that there wasn’t a coming back for her since she blew up the sept of Baelor and her last remaining son committed suicide. But I get what you mean. To be frank, I admired Daenery’s self control in this moment. And I am fully behind her: Fire and blood!

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    121. This season has been such a disaster, I don’t even know where to start. Normally I wouldn’t really care, but this show was so good through six seasons (contrary to others, season 6 was my favorite) I cannot believe how much the showrunners quit on it. Ever since D&D were announced to run that Star Wars show, it’s like their time was divided and they basically handed over the reigns to an intern. That’s what it looks like on the screen.

      They’ve basically ignored every prophecy, clue, backstory, etc. Jon has been utterly useless this season, Sansa is still whining since the middle of season 6, Dany’s huge army was dismissed entirely, Tyrion and Varys are basically statues, Bran has done absolutely nothing, it’s a complete mess. To top it all, the characters that do have screen time this season are the ones I never liked in the first place – Cersei and Euron. It’s like they met before the season and said whatever the audience wants to see most, let’s do the opposite of that. With the story they are giving us now, they easily could have made season 7 10 episodes and fit this season into the last 3.

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    122. Can anyone answer these questions?

      What did Dany do to Sana’a to have her distrust?
      What did Dany do to Arya to have her distrust?
      Why can’t Dany see the iron fleet from hundreds/thousands of feet up in the sky?
      Why wouldn’t the ruthless and always opportune cersi kill everyone or tried to have killed everyone and the terms meeting.( I can understand the dragon pit due to the disadvantage)
      Why is Gendry acting like a 14 year old virgin?
      Was Jaimie drunk enough to hit that?
      Why would Bronn play either side so badly?
      Where is pod now?
      Why does Jon not care about ghost so much to even say goodbye?
      Why was Dorne even brought into the show just to be an afterthought?
      Why hasn’t bran done anything meaningful at all to help?

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    123. fdr:
      ygritte,

      The way Jon spoke at the ceremony and was not mentioned by name when all cheered for their victory, gives me courage he will make it in the end. If he were a goner, they would have given him more spotlight.

      I feel the same way. We haven’t seen him show any real reason for being brought back from the dead. I find the reason some give, that he was the one to unite the armies to fight the NK, too nebulous and feel there needs to be something more specific. Beric was brought back time and time again for one fight scene where he saves Arya’s life. Jon is brought back for the over-generalised reason to unify allies and armies. Couldn’t the Lord of Light simply find someone else? Why pick the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen as the messenger boy. It feels he hasn’t yet served his ultimate purpose for being brought back from death. If his story ends with him dying in Dany’s war or even worse, in Cersei’s hands as a hostage, then his arc will feel incomplete and utterly without ending. Rewatching his parts of the show will be bloody difficult if that’s how he’s destined to go out.

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    124. Dyanna: The promise has always been that the majority of the audience will find the ending “satisfying” After watching this episode all I can see it death and heartbreak for almost all the main characters. I can’t see how that is satisfying. It’s depressing. No Disney ending please but at this rate they are all going to end up dead or miserable. Or am I wrong again lol.

      Its crazy because at one point I truly felt the death and heartbreak would come in the war of the Long Night

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    125. Why would Sansa tell Tyrion about Aegon now? Wouldn’t AeJon/Dany and everyone else being distracted by that revelation put AeJon in danger as he heads to battle with Cersei? Everyone’s focus should be on the battle and now there will be divided focus.

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    126. Sean C.,

      It also means Daenerys is well aware that she’s not taking the throne anymore because it is her birthright or to save the people, she is taking it because she can (or thinks she can), echoing back to Jorah’s description of Aegon the Conqueror. Stannis also claimed it was his duty/birthright to be King of Westeros (being a bit hypocritical, in my view, he wanted it, and duty is a welcome excuse) but Daenerys cannot claim that anymore.

      The parallels between Stannis and Dany and Mance (7 wildling tribes) and Jon are also strong. After saying that, Jon did bend the knee though.

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    127. Hanni:
      Che,

      There’s no coming back from this for her.

      I think it’s safe to say, that there wasn’t a coming back for her since she blew up the sept of Baelor and her last remaining son committed suicide. But I get what you mean. To be frank, I admired Daenery’s self control in this moment. And I am fully behind her: Fire and blood!

      I definitely see what you mean and I think I am struggling to explain myself, but I was talking more from the audience point of view. Her blowing up the sept, while terribly evil, made her a bit more likeable as a villain (to me). She outsmarted then all and took a terrible risk and choice, all for power and she took out the High sparrow, who was pretty hated. The collateral damage of Margaery and Tommen (less so) losing their lives would have upset some fans, but I think people still liked her being on screen because she was a fun and intriguing villain. Now she has absolutely burned her last olive branch – has sent Bronn to kill her beloved (to the fan base) brothers and has killed one of the few wholly good and likeable characters in the show, she’s lost it with the audience – I loved to hate her before; now I just hate her.

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    128. JamesL,

      Yes, these are the fans that since 2011, when ADWD came out, have been imagining a specific ending for this story and are now pissed off that it isn’t going their way.

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    129. The only way I see Dany coming back from here is she realises she is pregnant but that feels very remote. This feels like the perfect storm to go fire and blood, get in touching distance of ruling over the ashes and have one our hero’s take her out. Cersei will die before Dany so my money is on either ARya or Jon killing her.

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    130. Azor Asshai,

      This episode was chock full of losses, heartbreaks, and disappointments. I felt so bad when Arya blew off Gendry’s proposal. I was distressed that Sansa broke her promise so quickly. I felt so bad for Dany that she was being treated like an outsider by the Northerners after sacrificing so much to save them; at the victory party she looked so forlorn. The only saving grace….

      Arya & The Hound Road Show – The Sequel!!!!
      👸🏻🐕

      What was his line? Something like…

      Sandor: “If I get hurt, will you leave me to die again?
      Arya: “Probably.”

      🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

      If nothing else, I pray S8e6 ends with these two riding off together, insulting each other.

      Sandor: “You may have saved the world, but you’re still one cold little bitch.”
      Arya: “And you’re still the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms… Hey, you hungry?”
      Sandor: “Always.”
      Arya: “There’s an inn up ahead. Let’s get some ale and chicken. Maybe Hot Pie’s still there.”
      Sandor: “What the f*ck’s a Hot Pie?

      [Fade to black. Roll credits.]

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    131. I too thought “is this episode ever ending?” Not because I was complaining – I love lengthy episodes – but because it really felt like two episode in one.
      I’ll go straight to the major issues:

      Dany: I’ve never been a fan of hers. I’ve never been a hater neither. Actually, I’ve always wanted to like her, but I just couldn’t. I couldn’t help but to think she was pretentious, impulsive and, sometimes, way to merciless. I don’t deny her good side and the good she has done, but I’ve never been entirely sold on her “goodness”. So this turn of events doesn’t really look to me like a change of behaviour, but more like an escalation of behaviour. She thinks she’s the good one, the one who will save everyone and she would do horrible things in order to accomplish what she thinks it’s her destiny (she already has, when she crucified all the masters just out of revenge, without knowing anything about them).

      The last of the Starks: I agreed with Jon in telling his sisters/cousins about his real parents. I mean… they’re his sisters. It’s not just about Jon, it’s also about them. Now they know that their father was never unfaitful to their mother. They’ve been apart from each other for so long, and they’re his family. Of course he has to tell them.

      Sansa: she doesn’t like Daenerys one bit. She’s no fool, she knows Dany saved the North. And yet, she can’t like her. It’s not just girls’ rivalry. Something just doesn’t feel right to Sansa. Can’t really blame her. As Arya said, she’s trying to protect her family. She’s scared for Jon and she doesn’t trust Daenerys. Yes, she bretrays Jon’s sectret and tells it to Tyrion, but I think she does for a greater purpose. She’s seen her father die for honesty and loyalty and she doesn’t want to see Jon do the same. This doesn’t mean she isn’t loyal or honest. But she doesn’t want to be so to the point of being blind. She doesn’t like the situation and seeks for Tyrion’s help (someone who she trusts and appreciate).

      Tyrion and Varys: can’t really blame them either. Varys has always served the realm, not a ruler in particular. And if he thinks Daenerys is threatening the people of the realm (and at the moment it look like she is) it’s perfectly normal that he turns his back on her. Tyrion desperately wants to believe in her but can’t help to consider all the signs that show her as a tyrann, especially after what Sansa and Varys told him.

      Cersei: I’ve never believed her pregnancy, even more so after her scene with Tyrion. She probably (and smartly) used her false pregnancy to keep Jamie – and now Euron -bound to her, and to make Tyrion understimate her.

      Poor sweet Missandei. After Grey Worm survived the great war, I thought that, after all, they really could’ve had an happily after. Stupid me.

      Predictions: If Arya is heading south, that means she’s on a mission. We know she has still Cersei’s name on her list. If she doesn’t kill Cersei, then leaving winterfell alone (well, now sheìs with the Hound) makes no sense. So I think she will kill Jamie and take his face and then she will go for Cersei (this makes also sense with the Valonqar prophecy)
      Jon will probably have to kill Dany (another fulfilling of a prophecy: the prince that was promised killing his Nissa Nissa). He’ll either sit on the Iron Throne or die, leaving a vacant throne. At this point, Tyrion could sit on the throne as the last of Cersei’s heirs. Maybe there’s a third possibility for Jon. He kills Dany and he’s so broken at this point that he goes away, maybe to join the free folk and be reunited with Ghost (“You have the North in you” – Tormund.)

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    132. Interesting recap. I have to say that I did not experience your Pacing concerns, although I do see that this could’ve been broken up into two episodes.

      Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      I agree – I loved this episode and was even okay with no one seeing Euron. The scene of Grey Worm and Missandei holding hands and smiling being the only signal that the attack was coming (This is Game of Thrones after all). Although I knew something bad was going to happen, it still was all quite shocking, which is Of course what Nutter was going for. I found myself screaming at the TV that Daenerys should circle around and flame Euron from the rear. Still, I get that D & D wanted to see his demise until at least episode five. All in all I thought this episode was brilliant!! more after I rewatch.

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    133. ygritte:
      Ten Bears,

      You know what I just realized: Cercei has brown eyes. Sansa has green. Uh oh. Call backs to season 1. Hmm.

      In the show, Danaerys’ eyes are more green than blue. That may be meaningless as in the books she has purple eyes – then again, that scene between Mel and Arya doesn’t happen in the books…. 🤔

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    134. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      Presumably, the weapons are on swivels and can swing around. Swivel guns were used on ships from long ago. It would be foolish to have a weapon that can’t swivel, and Tyburn isn’t foolish, just creepy. That’s my guess.

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    135. Reading your post makes me more certain Jon will be the one to take out Dany after she has delivered fire and blood. This way he can still be the Prince who is promised.

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    136. Euron knows the game, he would know that the detail of Cersei being pregnant would be known. What is it Davis said “Lord Varys knows what you had for breakfast”.

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    137. I always envisioned Aerys II as being Bug F**king Nuts, vs Dany being Able Sugar Angry… which would be different.

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    138. Not time to give my thoughts, but I will say that I’m truly amazed by the reaction to this episode. Read into that what you will.

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    139. DCM:
      fdr,

      Brienne will not follow Jaime .. she is sworn to protect Sansa.

      Maybe she will face her duty vs love moment and surprise us all.

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    140. Jade,

      Ned promised to keep a secret and kept it – Jon couldn’t. He is ultimately a pretty boy weakling, I think. He pledges that Dany is his queen, then does what he pleases because his loyalty is just words. Bad husband material, bad leader material.

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    141. Apollo,

      “On the other hand I AM pleased Arya told Gendry to take his ladyship and stick it up his bung hole. Totally faithful to her character.

      ________
      While I felt bad Arya blew off Gendry, I chuckled when I read what you wrote. 😆

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    142. Ten Bears,

      P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?

      Long answer short: She learned a great deal from Cersei.
      GRRM and the showrunners used her storyline as a template to mirror and explain how Cersei turned out the way she did. To create empathy so you as a watcher or reader are enabled to feel with the characters.
      As for me, I have to say: My empathy and compassion for Sansa was used up, when she snarked about how she should feed the armies and the dragons. While that was a reasonable question, the way how she asked it, was way out of line. Yes, tone matters.
      And after she betrayed Jon – again, I might add! – for me, she changed to the dark side. This betrayal – of a vow she gave in front of a weirwood tree – was not driven by love for her family, not even by fear for their security (Because Sansa is not stupid. She sure as hell knows how dangerous this information is!). This betrayal was driven only by hunger for power. Sansa is a new Cersei in the making, and while the old game of thrones is not even finished yet, she started a new one. Guess who will be a major player in it…

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    143. Lady MarMar:
      Jade,

      Ned promised to keep a secret and kept it – Jon couldn’t.He is ultimately a pretty boy weakling, I think.He pledges that Dany is his queen, then does what he pleases because his loyalty is just words.Bad husband material, bad leader material.

      Jon didn’t promise Dany he would keep his birthright a secret. In fact, he outright told her he had to tell his sisters. She pleaded with him, but he held firm. That’s hardly weak. Weak would have been putting aside his own wishes to do the honourable thing by his family to satisfy Daenerys’ desperate pleas.

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    144. Summer,

      Well we actually don’t know if behind the scenes they had sent a Raven to Dragonstone to see if things were ok there or not. Maybe they had and that’s why they proceeded with confidence. We don’t know since we aren’t being provided with behind the scenes details and actions. In my opinion if Dragonstone was overtaken by Euron they would have known. Tyrion and Co would have to have left a small contingent on the island who would have informed them.

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    145. Ten Bears:
      Dyanna,

      Dany is really getting shafted this season. After all she did to save the North, she’s being treated like an interloper.

      P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?

      This is why I feel for Dany. She’d lost so much. I’d even say she’d lost the most. Despite everything she did, she’s not appreciated. If I were her, I’d feel bitter.

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    146. Overall, I enjoyed the episode. I don’t blame Jon one bit for telling Sansa and Arya who he really is but I do think we could have done with their reactions. I also feel Daenerys should never have asked him to stay quiet. I get that he threatens her ‘claim’, well now she has none, but he can’t keep something like that from the sisters he grew up with. I did like Arya being a mediator between Sansa and Jon in recognising what Daenerys did.

      Dany just seemed very isolated in this episode which I think was summed up when she said the people of Westeros have never looked at her like the people of Essos, as a saviour.

      Mostly, I was annoyed that Jon didn’t even give Ghost a hug and seems to be abandoning him. I can understand why Jon would think Ghost would be better off with Tormund but it just feels like a way to get Ghost off-screen. I could have done with a much more emotional scene. And poor Ghost from the battle!!!

      Cersei is trying play everyone but Euron can’t be stupid enough to think she is pregnant with his child, if she’s pregnant at all, which I doubt. I do think wildfire will be used and that it may take down Dany and Drogon.

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    147. Adam,

      Yes. I was waiting for Cersei to slaughter them all. Tywin would have and based on Cersei’s character and actions throughout the series it would have been more consistent to end it there. But they didn’t.
      Cersei must have other more devious desires. Like capture and torture…

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    148. This may have been noted but doesn’t flying on a dragon in the sky give you the perfect vantage point from which to see approaching ships?

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    149. Dee Stark:
      Sam,

      no its not reliable, but I am annoyed about it hahaha

      I know! Some here said there were people who gave ratings of 1 even before the show aired. So maybe a lot of them were just trolls.

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    150. Did Dany and Co. think they could go back to Dragonstone like returning from a Disney cruise? Geez, Cersei wasn’t going to sit around and knit baby booties, for fucks sake. And no snow in King’s Landing?

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    151. Sam,

      Well the episode leaked so people watched it before it aired

      But even on Rotten Tomatoes, the last two episodes S8E3 and S8E4 are rated at 74% which is lowest ever.

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    152. Che,

      I feel you could be right about the ending feeling deeply unsatisfying for most and maybe that could explain why D&D are setting it up this way like with denying us the more minor pay-offs we expected. Kind of trying to cushion the blow so to speak? That may sound stupid but I’m just trying to make sense of things 🙂

      I’m just as curious about the Red-wedding type event. It must be part of the 3rd shocking twist. Who will be gathered at a wedding, or at least some merry event at this point I wonder. I can’t envision one in these last 2 episodes unless it’s Jon/Dany, which isn’t set up, or Cercei survives to marry Euron which I highly doubt. There is one idea I got after just seeing a screen shot of Sansa from this episode but it’s really out of left field.

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    153. Jade,

      Cersei: I’ve never believed her pregnancy,

      Me, either. And I think that’s one reason that Tyrion’s plea fell on deaf ears. Cersei has something inside her, but not a fetus.

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    154. While there is a chance to be surprised, I think this episode – which was among the best in the series imho regardless of the few niggles which came mostly because of TV storytelling limitations than anything else – strongly hinted at the ending which is that Daenerys wins but dies in the process – whether she turns full mad queen and Jon kills her or she threatens Jon and Arya kills her, or she just dies in the final battle tbd, Jon renounces all claims and heads North (with Bran) to Tormund and Ghost, while the heir to the throne is clearly Gendry as he was legitimized and he will rule with Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Bronn etc as his ruling council.

      Tyrion will free Jaime (who will be captured on the way to KL, tried and condemned by Daenerys) to go die with Cersei, will get caught and tried but escape the sentence with Daenerys’s death, Euron’s ships are clearly to be burnt by Drogon as we see in the preview and possibly Euron will actually fatally wound Cersei while being killed by Jaime, Cleganebowl will end with the death of both, Varys will get executed for treason while Arya will leave Westeros and Sansa will rule the North

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    155. Game of Thrones is undoubtedly my favourite show of all time – it’s hard to imagine anything coming close to it in the future.

      I don’t disagree with the plot points of season 7 and 8. As sad as it is to see the unravelling and probable tragic end to Daenerys’ character arc, the signs have been there since season 2 when “I will take what is mine” became her motto. It’s unlikely that Sansa could grow up in the hands of cruel, manipulative, abusive and – in terms of Ramsay – evil people, and remain pure and good. If she had she wouldn’t have lived through it. She was right to say in the episode that all of those bad things that happened made her the person she is now. It’s not a shock that she’s cold, untrusting, and manipulating others at this stage in the game. Perhaps the only thing I disagree with in the most recent episode is Jaime potentially undoing his progress this season by returning to Cersei although I reckon it’s to kill her, not to be by her side again.

      The issue I have is that season 7 and 8 should not have been condensed into 7 and 6 episodes. Sure, asking for more seasons may have proved a mistake – I know I hate it when a show drags on to the point people are calling for it to end AKA The Walking Dead. But these last two seasons should have been full length. All of the plot points are so crammed together even if the content is good it isn’t being given the time it needs to allow the story to breathe and affect you the way it used to pre-season 7. Yes earlier seasons had some forgettable episodes where not much happened, but they had dialogue and intrigue that set up the key plot points and action-heavy episodes so that you didn’t need to constantly apply leaps of faith or assumptions that certain conversations must have happened off-screen.

      I love this show, and I always will, and I’m not one of these fans who just slams the show and bigs up the books (which we have to acknowledge may never be finished). I think the show-runners made a big mistake in condensing season 7 and 8. I don’t know why they did it, probably to be able to move on to other projects. But rather than sending off the show properly it feels as though we’re sprinting towards the end, and that any ending at this point will feel unearned because of that. If they were struggling to come up with content or dialogue because of a lack of source material I’m sure HBO would’ve footed the bill to bring in established screenwriters who could’ve helped flesh things out correctly. Weiss and Benioff did say in an interview recently that HBO would’ve gladly paid for more episodes and even seasons, so the decision to cut things lies solely with the show-runners. It has disjointed the storytelling and made it so that the plot is driving the characters rather than the characters driving the plot. It’s a real shame and could have been avoided.

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    156. The character moments were by and large good–some better than others.

      What pulled me out of the story was the idiocy of Dany not going batshit crazy over the dragon’s skewering and roasting all of those ships from behind (see Battle of Mereen). Also, the Kings Landing set piece doesn’t look like KL. Where is Aegon’s High Hill, the towers of the keep? Saving a couple bucks on not putting in the CGI background or extending the walls enough or properly building the road that would lead to the gates of such a city yanked me right out of the story. Very…not even B-movie. Downright tv-ish.

      I’m still along for the ride, but my immersion is being sorely stretched.

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    157. Che,

      Aah! I see. In that case you are of course right. And yes, Cersei is a brilliant villain, especially the way Lena Headey portrays her.

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    158. Lady MarMar:
      Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      Presumably, the weapons are on swivels and can swing around.Swivel guns were used on ships from long ago.It would be foolish to have a weapon that can’t swivel, and Tyburn isn’t foolish, just creepy.That’s my guess.

      This is my explanation to myself about why this scene made sense but they would have had to drop the sails pretty fast to get any type of shot!

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    159. GeekFurious,

      Gendry deserves better, than Sansa the Mockingbird (and better than Arya). Actually, I don’t think that he’ll ever become a real lord of the Storms’ End. Not excluded, but I can equally see him returning to the forge and making good and useful things. IMO, his dreams about a higher social position were very much related to Arya. Poor boy!

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    160. Dee Stark:
      Sam,

      Well the episode leaked so people watched it before it aired

      But even on Rotten Tomatoes, the last two episodes S8E3 and S8E4 are rated at 74% which is lowest ever.

      RT is horrible for TV.

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    161. Jenny:
      I am really quite upset by the Jaime/Brienne thing.I can’t believe that he would sleep with her then leave her after everything they have been to each other.I am hoping that he is planning to end Cersei, but am also prepared for a massive disappointment.

      Literally this.

      I understand that his arc has always been to go to KL and that from a story point of view, he had to do that.

      But what I needed was a confirmation of their love for each other that has been hinted in subtext for seven years now. I needed it to be sweet and like a confession. Instead, it started with talk of virginity and ended in an awkward sex scene. Not cool.

      Also, he JUST LEFT HER THERE SOBBING. HURTING. The Jaime Lannister of season 3-7 wouldn’t do that.

      First of all, nothing he can say or not say will stop Brienne from going to KL if that’s where she wants to be. If anything, the honour bound Brienne would have stayed in Winterfell anyway to protect Sansa so Jaime could’ve told her the truth instead of being all cryptic. So him not telling her the truth to protect her makes no sense. She’s her own woman, always has been.

      Secondly, I would have liked it more if he confessed his ACTUAL LOVE to Brienne USING THOSE WORDS and then explained that Cersei’s the monster he created. I would have liked it if Brienne understood (because she would have) that Jaime has to be the one to end Cersei and no matter how much Brienne loves him, this is his burden to bear. It would have been difficult , yes, but we know Brienne is a strong enough woman and has enough understanding of honour and duty to acknowledge and respect Jaime if he told her he had to go on this mission.

      Instead, they had him leave her there with her worst fears confirmed: that he never really loved her and that she’s too ugly for someone like him to fall for her. I mean, they didn’t even have him confirm that he came to Winterfell for her. It just got turned into this baseless sex scene with none of the beauty that their relationship possesses.

      If this is how they wanted to play it, then either have Jaime/Brienne get together earlier in the season or keep their relationship one of respect. Having him leave her like this after what seemed like a one night stand is just heartbreaking and cruel for her character, and a major step back for his progress.

      Jaime Lannister of season 1 would’ve still killed the evil monarch to save King’s Landing so I don’t see how the Brienne thing plays into anything if that is the sum of his existence. It’s not like he’s now killing Cersei because he loves Brienne and :. Brienne was important to the equation in any way. What a sham.

      Now, even if he survives all I’ll have in my head is the image of him leaving a brokenhearted Brienne behind after she begged him to stay. It felt like a betrayal to her. Now, she’ll go on believing that he never loved her and perhaps never can, even if Cersei is dead. Wouldn’t be fair to her character for her to accept him after all is said and done.

      In my mind, I can never see them being together. All those seasons of build up went down the drain. All bitter, no sweet.

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    162. Hanni:
      Ten Bears,

      P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?

      Long answer short: She learned a great deal from Cersei.
      GRRM and the showrunners used her storyline as a template to mirror and explain how Cersei turned out the way she did. To create empathy so you as a watcher or reader are enabled to feel with the characters.

      That’s very much a show thing. Sansa in the books is the anti-Cersei; the latter’s role in her story is as a big “what not to do”.

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    163. Sighing hard at the folks that think Arya must surely marry Gendry because, reasons, and because that’s the only thing that they can now contribute to the plot and because both their dead Daddies said so.

      What part of “that’s not me” are we not getting?

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    164. Loved the episode. However it had a few head scratching moments. Right off the bat. How are Lyanna Mormont and Edd Tollette still in one piece. The Night King reanimated then. When he died they should have fallen to pieces just as the rest of his newly reanimated corpses did.

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    165. The acting was superior in this episode, to a character.

      I loved this episode despite it’s flaws. The story has been rushed with so many loose ends, but we have two major issues behind the scenes. GRRM still needs to finish his books (if that ever happens) and the prequels are in works. Details about the White Walkers, Howland Reed, Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa etc – much of this lore IMO is being reserved for the books and future shows, which would be worthless if they did not promise some revelations to die hard fans.

      Jon: Jon’s goodbyes to Tormund, Sam and Ghost means Jon is toast. I don’t think we’ll see Tormund and Ghost again, but Sam and Gilly seem to be sticking around in Winterfell for now. Kit’s acting was aces this episode.

      Sam: A wedding for Sam and Gilly would not be out of order. And considering Jon’s speech about not forgetting, I believe Sam (and Bran) have some work to do recording people and histories. And Horn Hill is waiting for them.

      Sansa. I’m not sure what Sansa and Brienne will encounter now. IMO Cersei would absolutely send a contingency to finish them off. It’s looks like Gendry and Pod also stuck around, but I can’t be sure about Gendry.

      Gendry. Does his legitimization actually secure his loyalty to Dany, or does it hand him the throne? I think the latter. Arya was in character, though that scene was hard to watch. We all want Arya to be happy and safe but “that’s not her.” It is Sansa though. Perfect match. Endgame.

      Dany. I feel terrible for her and I’d understand 200% if she cracked and turned into a Mad Queen. We have two clues that something major is happening with the dragons, I think. There is the dragon skull beneath the throne room in the opener, and the carved dragon on the wall in the war room on Dragonstone. Was that carving always there? If so, it was never featured so prominently.

      Cersei. She is having the longest pregnancy since Maggie on Walking Dead. Heh. I still think there is something nefarious in the works there, far beyond what it seems. She knows the woods witch was correct about her three children dying… so I think she’s made other plans, with Qyburn’s help.

      Arya. Will be heading west of Westeros in the end. Like Nymeria.

      ETA I guess Alys Karstark is dead? They gave the poor girl one speaking scene ages ago, they used her as set decor, then they marched her off with Bran to the godswood, never to be seen again? I was hoping she would be given her wildling lover in Tormund.

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    166. Jon sending Ghost away wasn’t a budget thing. It’s symbolic. He’s sending his spirit animal away. It means he’s going to die.

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    167. I totally agree that this felt like two totally different episodes, first half and second. At the very onset I wondered what Dany whispered to Jorah. That she’d avenge him? Of the people left around her, he was the one with the best chance to keep her reined in. She’s suffered terrible lost. Two of her “children”, her Dothraki were decimated, her Unsullied were decimated, Missande, and even Jon. He may be with her, but he can’t love her back like she wants him too and he’s a threat to her throne. If that isn’t enough to drive her totally mad, she’s a better woman than most.

      Jon is following in Ned’s footsteps and I understand why he is, but I worry that that may be his downfall. I am fully prepared for Jon to die. I personally would like to see the iron throne melted down, but we all know that “someone” has to be in charge. We can only hope it won’t be a mad-woman. In the end I wonder if Tyrion will be the one to stop her.

      Jaime leaving upset me, but I can’t say I was shocked by it. He has and will always love Cersei, but I also think he may be under the mistaken impression he can stop her from being like the mad king..in other words “don’t burn them all.” She has a rested, bought and paid for army, a fleet and crazy man who loves to kill leading it, scorpions and wild fire. This does not bode well. In the end I also wonder if Jaime will be the one to stop her. I don’t think it will be Arya and I worry that Arya is trying to bite off more than she can chew. I also don’t think she should be the one to take out Cersei. She took out the night king, but Cersei too? If she can’t, then what will happen to her? I honestly don’t see her and the Hound riding off into the sunset.

      So, all said and done, it was a good episode (they can’t all be epic), and we are honestly on the road to chaos, madness and the loss of characters. THAT is saddest of all.

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    168. fdr,

      Jon just seems like a shell of his former self. I miss his old lively/cocky self like when he addressed the Night’s watch council after coming back from his wildling adventures. As for the books suggesting Dany just wants to plant roots and have love of family I didn’t really get any notion of that in the show version. Maybe in first episode or two they touched on it but my memory isn’t that good. But when her brother died I think something changed in her. I would have liked to see some acknowledgement that Jon is family. It’s really surprising we got nothing at all.

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    169. viki:
      S8E4 – the Day the Ships Died

      RIP Arya and Gendry
      RIP Brienne and Jamie
      RIP Dany and Jon
      RIP Missandi and Grey Worm
      RIP Sansa and Sandor
      RIP Sansa and Tyrion

      I’m pretty steamed about Jaime and Brienne and the utterly shite handling of what was supposed to be a beautiful romance into some weird one night stand, but the one that PISSED ME OFF was Missandei’s death.

      I understand that it is meaningful. I understand that this was so we could see Dany being pushed over the edge. But what this has done is made my fully support Dany to bring fire and blood upon all of KL. I don’t see her as a mad queen – I see her doing exactly what anyone would do if their friend and their child had been ripped apart from them in one day. It’s the things she is going to do for love.

      If they wanted to show us Dany descending into madness (as admittedly, they have been doing in portions over the past few seasons) then Rhaegal + taking down of her boats would have sufficed. Killing Missandei was just…cruel.

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    170. Ghostgirl:

      Mostly, I was annoyed that Jon didn’t even give Ghost a hug and seems to be abandoning him. I can understand why Jon would think Ghost would be better off with Tormund but it just feels like a way to get Ghost off-screen. I could have done with a much more emotional scene. And poor Ghost from the battle!!!

      After watching the episode a second time. I wondered if there’s significance to Jon asking Tormund to bring Ghost with him up north. Jon said Ghost would be happier up there and Tormund said, “so would you.” There’s an article/interview saying Ghost will appear again later this season, would Jon’s ending be him going up north to join Ghost and “be free and have room to wander”?

      As for Jon not hugging Ghost, I think it’s more because of the lack of CGI budget than Jon being an uncaring pet owner. 🙂

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    171. Ten Bears:
      Dyanna,

      Varys may very well try to take out Dany. And as she promised, she will roast him alive with dragonfire.

      Dany is really getting shafted this season. After all she did to save the North, she’s being treated like an interloper.

      P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?

      I have asked myself the same question. I could understand Sansa’s animosity up to now but having seen the sacrifices Dany has made and her losses in the Battle of Winterfell, what is it exactly that Sansa is so suspicious of? Just why??
      Or is it just that Sansa is simply driven by the need for Stark rule and nothing else will do.
      She’s turning into a little bitch.

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    172. This show is getting worse by the episode.
      Disappointing.

      However, what they should have done is have Tyrion and Jamie approach Arya to kill Bronn for his arrogance, steal his face and then announce the Lannister brothers dead.
      Arya returns as Bronn to King’s Landing to collect their rewards, and kills Cersei.
      Job done.

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    173. On the subject of avoiding the scorpion attack – yes they could probably have seen the ships from the air, but they have much better (and far too underused) way

      John: “Hey Bran, pop on over to Kingslanding and let us know what Cersei has been planning”

      Bran: Goes all white eyed for a bit….”right she’s covered all of the castle in a crap load of scorpions and is going to send Euron’s fleet to try and ambush Danny”

      Danny: “right well then, guess I’m not going to Dragonstone ”

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    174. Very frustrating episode.

      The cognitive dissonance required around Bran’s powers solely to create tension is mind numbing. And now twice Daeny has been surprised at sea while god knows how high up in the sky.

      Apparently there’s no time for scouting (maybe Bran could help with that) and dragons are blind. Daeny should have taken Euron’s offer. He’s obviously more useful than dragons imo.

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    175. Dee Stark:
      Sam,

      Well the episode leaked so people watched it before it aired

      But even on Rotten Tomatoes, the last two episodes S8E3 and S8E4 are rated at 74% which is lowest ever.

      Oh, I didn’t know it was leaked. Thank God it was not spoiled for me. I hate spoilers 😀

      At this point, it would be difficult to please everyone. As for me, I just want to savor every minute of these last episodes. Are they perfect? Definitely not but I’ll watch and re-watch these last season’s episodes for sure.

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    176. Dyanna,

      It’s a plot point to drive a wedge between the north and Dany … so they can strip her of all her allies and leave her feeling alone

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    177. Sam,

      After watching the episode a second time. I wondered if there’s significance to Jon asking Tormund to bring Ghost with him up north. Jon said Ghost would be happier up there and Tormund said, “so would you.” There’s an article/interview saying Ghost will appear again later this season, would Jon’s ending be him going up north to join Ghost and “be free and have room to wander”?

      Yeah, I noticed that too. I love how Tormund and Jon have become real friends when they were enemies I also wondered if Ghost wouldn’t go and try and get Tormund to go south to help Jon. I do feel Jon would get a semblence of happiness if he just went north and stayed away from the rest of Westeros.

      I took it for CGI budget too but still would have liked Jon to hug Ghost. 🙂

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    178. HelloThere,

      “Starving” out Cersei means starving the inhabitants of KL. That’s why I thought a siege was a self-defeating plan in the first place.

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    179. Summer,

      They didn’t show Arya and Sansa’s reaction to Jon’s parentage reveal for two simple reasons.

      1. The audience has already heard and seen the story multiple times.

      2. Arya and Sansa’s reactions are obvious, as would be Jon’s response to them.

      Sansa and Arya: First of all, we love you just the same. You’re our brother and a Stark. But yeah, that’s crazy, oh my God. You would so be a great King.

      Jon: No. I will not take the throne and don’t want it. Join me in supporting Dany. It’s best for the seven kingdoms.

      Sansa and Arya: come on.

      Jon: No.

      Sansa and Arya: OK, but we’re not happy about it.

      *Sansa tells Tyrion*

      You really, really don’t need that scene. You know exactly what happened. And there wouldn’t have been much emotion to it. If I found out my brother was adopted, it wouldn’t change a thing and I wouldn’t be emotional about it. I love him and he’s my brother.

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    180. The Bastard: Toxic Nerd Culture. They hate anything that gets too popular. Sort of mimics their real lives.

      It’s sad that you feel the need to insult people who don’t blindly praise everything the show does.

      I guess critical thinking is “toxic nerd culture” ?

      People who don’t believe in criticism are the reason why so many writers are lazy and don’t put any effort into good quality storytelling. They know that blind fans will love it no matter how dumb it gets.

      And by the way, 7.7 is not a bad score.

      Still means most people liked it. They just like it less than usual, because it’s become terribly sloppy.

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    181. Ten Bears,

      Yes, but the idea is to have her capitulate before they (and she) starves. And of course, a starving population could revolt and unseat Cersei themselves. It’s not at all self-defeating. It could work.

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    182. Yet again people see what they want to see about Sansa. How is she the new Cersei, when the first scene you see of her is genuinely mourning for Theon and giving him the Stark pin?

      Or later when she had a touching moment with the Hound and showed him respect and care? What about her worry and fear for Jon when he marched south and her obvious pain in having to break the stupid promise?

      Yeah, she broke it. So what. It was the right thing to do. She sees right through Dany and sees the destructive tyrant in her, the implusive one who’s charging the North’s exhausted armies into a battle despite them not being ready. Dany has been constantly ignorant to her and the one time she did try to make it right she tried to manipulate Sansa, which didn’t work.

      Also yes, Dany helped. But so did Sansa. She was the only person who gave a fuck about the North and wanting to take it back, even Jon wanted to retire south. She put Jon back on track and retook winterfell, which she then successfully prepared for winter. The WW threat steam rolls Bran and Westeros if not for any of that.

      Sansa has every reason to believe Dany is bad news. She has every reason to believe Jon would make a great ruler. She’ll never be like Cersei because she has empathy and love for people, more so than Dany, who’s completely ok with burning innocent people alive to conquer the realm, despite her claim now being moot. She’s the selfish one, the one more like Cersei. As for Sansa being power hungry? She refused the North the instant Jon offered it. Dany is begging Jon not to destroy her claim.

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    183. JamesL: It is sad that this great show is clearly judged in a different manner than all other entertainment

      Yeah, you’re right. It is judged completely differently than all other entertainment.

      For some reason people forgive this show for dozens of plot holes, logical inconsistencies, character assassinations, and stupid writing that they would never tolerate in any other TV show or movie of this caliber.

      GoT gets a free pass from mass audiences and most critics even when its writing descends into soap opera territory, or worse.

      People have blinders on, because the show used to be so good and because the production values are so amazing.

      Because of that, they shut off their brains and ignore how full of holes the story has become.

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    184. Team_Sansa:
      Am I the only one who doesn’t think Cersei is pregnant?

      The minute we saw Septa Unella tied up, with the Mountain poised to do Cersei’s bidding, I was positive Cersei and Qyburn were cooking up a plan to create their version of Tormund’s monster babies. I don’t think CERSEI was ever pregnant.

      And Cersei has “plans” for the dragon queen.

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    185. Will Bran’s story to Tyrion come out? Does Tyrion know the ending and trying to save someone? Can Arya wear the faces of the White King and army ….since she killed them ALL?????

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    186. fdr,

      Davos was worried about Dany’s possible reaction towards Gendry. Now it’s solved. Sure, we can see this move as political, too, but it might take a massive PR campaign to make the lords of the Stormlands to accept Gendry. So, I lean towards the thought that legitimization was mainly Jon’s response to his affair with Arya and maybe also general attempt to bring everyone together. Also, he might have thought that Gendry’s marriage to Arya will sort of compensate for his mother’s broken vows to Gendry’s father. Unfortunately, Arya decided not to go along and without any legit reason.

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    187. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      I’m not ready to say goodbye to all of the characters about to die next week. I fully expect Jon to be one of them. Gods, it’s gonna suck!

      Jaime’s words to Brienne was 100 percent his way of saying he is on a mission to kill Cersei and he doesn’t want Brienne following him, IMO. “I’m hateful too!” It’s come full circle. He has to kill another monarch to save KL again.

      I can’t help but feel Arya and the Hound are riding to yet another Red Wedding. If Jon dies, please let him have one last moment with Arya.

      I agree about saying good bye, it’s too soon.

      I feel for Dany, she listened to advice from people who know Westeros and she’s lost everything including Jon (they can’t be together). I’m hoping she is able to act with wisdom instead of rage.

      First Bronn tells Jamie that Cersei sent him to kill the brothers then gets bad news from the battle. He’s going to go try to stop Cersei. He may try to get her to leave with him to save the baby. And was anyone else thinking that Euron was counting weeks once Tyrion talked children with Cersei?

      Arya and the Hound are going to go all Pulp Fiction in KL. If anything they will create a Red Wedding…will there be pie?

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    188. Ten Bears,

      Remember the Botb when it was hard to discern the look on her face as she watched on the battlefield and noticed Jon was still alive and running after Ramsay? Some said she looked ambivalent or even upset about his survival. Now, she’s betrayed his secret and quite possibly putting him in danger. I think Sansa only cares about herself really.

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    189. fdr,

      They already have the Economical Community of Westeros: it’s called the Seven Kingdoms. How do you think a feudal country works?

        Quote  Reply

    190. WhiteSparkle,
      I totally agree.
      This whole season just comes across as poorly constructed fan fiction.
      It’s populist and appealing to all the things fans want to see, along with throwing in a few shocks by popping off secondary characters along the way.
      The production is exemplary and has never been better. The acting, the direction, the photography (notably beautiful this season), but dear gods, the scripts are dire.
      It’s become Dallas in chain mail.

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    191. The Bastard: She knows if she kills Dany, that the dragon kills her.

      Drogon is just sitting there. They have like 10 ballistas lined up on the walls right where the stand off is happening. What’s stopping them from just firing immediately and killing Drogon ?

      They were somehow able to shoot Rhaegal out of the sky with three shots in quick succession, and with stunning accuracy.

      Yet they can’t just shoot Drogon at the parlay ? Why not ?

      People need to stop making excuses for bad writing. Cersei easily could have had every single person there killed within seconds.

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    192. I think Gendry ends up on the throne, after Dany and Jon die. He’s the true Baratheon heir. So the show comes full circle back to the beginning with a real Baratheon on the throne again after a Targaryen is defeated. Both times, perhaps, by Jaime Lannister.

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    193. Jon and Deanerys could consider several options:

      One would think that Daenerys could make the Targ secret public, take the throne by conquest then make Jon king and then she (Deanryrs) become his Hand. Tywin ruled as Hand. Also make the north independent.

      Or let Jon become King, then he abdicates to return to the watch like Master Aemon. Surely they can reconstitute the watch as a far northern security post.

      The Targ line of succession has ended but they will take the throne by conquest it appears. No way Cersei wins. But it is unclear that if Daenerys is looking for a family, that she would so desperately tell her family to keep the family secret.

      Cersei is terrible but Daenerys has no right to the throne and she knows it. Whoever can keep it, it is theirs.

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    194. Meg: And yes, Jon does share a greater blame. Dany asked him not to say anything – especially to Sansa and she gave him the reason why he shouldn’t. And he did it anyway. If there’s lots of blabbing going on, let’s not forget who started it. Jon.

      Because Jon is responsible for what Sansa freely decides to do, even though she promised Jon she’d keep quiet and then broke that promise?

      I mean, I get it wasn’t a wise move on Jon’s part and I get why Sansa wants to press Jon’s claim and Dany was absolutely correct in her prediction but the only one responsible for Sansa’s choices is Sansa.

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    195. GodofTitsandWine,

      The corpses only fell apart according to the extent of their decay, the didn’t shatter like the WWs. A deanimated mostly-skeleton would appear to shatter, but a body only a half-hour dead would not. But I agree it was inconsistent, the Giant’s body seemed to decompose and fall apart more than it should have.

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    196. Inga,

      Why does Arya need a legit reason to turn Gendry down? There is no need for her to do that if she doesn’t want that. I would have found it out of character if she said ‘yes’.

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    197. BeardedOnion,

      Actually, I agree that Sansa has empathy for people. But I think her flaw is that her empathy is bound by the North. She only really has empathy for her in-group, and so she can’t extend her compassion beyond those boundaries to the people of Westeros and beyond. She’s the equivalent of a modern nationalist in that sense. So it matters not to her that Dany working together with the Starks as Wards could result in a peaceful and just kingdom. She demands Northern autonomy because her empathy is only for Northerners.

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    198. Nick20: It’s sad that you feel the need to insult people who don’t blindly praise everything the show does.

      I guess critical thinking is “toxic nerd culture” ?

      People who don’t believe in criticism are the reason why so many writers are lazy and don’t put any effort into good quality storytelling. They know that blind fans will love it no matter how dumb it gets.

      And by the way, 7.7 is not a bad score.

      Still means most people liked it. They just like it less than usual, because it’s become terribly sloppy.

      Nerd Culture is well documented as being cynical. It has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes.

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    199. Nick20,

      People cried about how bad Unbowed Unbent Unbroken was for weeks and it still has a better score. Hundreds of people were giving this latest episode 1 star on IMDB even before the leaks…how could it be more toxic lol

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    200. ShameShameShame:

      Dany.I feel terrible for her and I’d understand 200% if she cracked and turned into a Mad Queen.We have two clues that something major is happening with the dragons, I think.There is the dragon skull beneath the throne room in the opener, and the carved dragon on the wall in the war room on Dragonstone.Was that carving always there?If so, it was never featured so prominently.

      Cersei.She is having the longest pregnancy since Maggie on Walking Dead.Heh.I still think there is something nefarious in the works there, far beyond what it seems. She knows the woods witch was correct about her three children dying… so I think she’s made other plans, with Qyburn’s help.

      Dany has put her people and Dragons into this mess and how soon was that forgotten? She lost her most loyal friends. Her sons. Now they itch to toss her aside for a male. I hope they all find a way to trust each other as Cersei is using their emotions against them.

      Grow up Tyrion, your sister is an evil bitch. And her pregnancy should result in the most robust premature baby ever.

      Can a girl hope Ghost follows Jon?

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    201. Inga,

      I’m not an expert in feudalism, but I would say that in a feudal country there is hardly any direct management from the capital. There is hardly economy which is not local either, making an ECW basically non-existent. While the North looks really feudal to me in that the overlord has to keep his bannermen happy, the Targaryen dynasty looks less so to me, they did as they liked. I was joking, but the seven lords don’t call themselves independent sovereigns yet, nor do they meet biannually to solve common problems? They also don’t choose their new emperor as in the Holy Roman Empire (before that became hereditary in the late Middle Ages).

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    202. Nick20: Drogon is just sitting there. They have like 10 ballistas lined up on the walls right where the stand off is happening. What’s stopping them from just firing immediately and killing Drogon ?

      They were somehow able to shoot Rhaegal out of the sky with three shots in quick succession, and with stunning accuracy.

      Yet they can’t just shoot Drogon at the parlay ? Why not ?

      People need to stop making excuses for bad writing. Cersei easily could have had every single person there killed within seconds.

      Why do you continue to watch the show if you dislike it so much? And even if you just want to see it finish, why waste your time online posting about something you obviously don’t enjoy anymore?

      The story telling is fine. You just want to complain, just like you have all season. No matter what was put out, you would find something to complain about. You are “that guy”.

      To answer your question…. Rhaegal was hurt and wasn’t as mobile which is why it was easy to shoot him out of the sky. Drogon wasn’t as injured and could move out of the way. For somebody who can complain about the show so much, you really should pay attention more to the details. The same small details that show why the writing is so great.

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    203. I would’ve named S8 E4 – I am the Storm or

      The Things I do for Love

      I wish Jon Snow could grow as a character and change how predictable he is… do some thing that surprises the viewer… Take Daenerys advice – Take Tyrion’s advice… wake up and play the Game of Thrones..

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    204. BeardedOnion:
      Yet again people see what they want to see about Sansa. How is she the new Cersei, when the first scene you see of her is genuinely mourning for Theon and giving him the Stark pin?

      Or later when she had a touching moment with the Hound and showed him respect and care? What about her worry and fear for Jon when he marched south and her obvious pain in having to break the stupid promise?

      Yeah, she broke it. So what. It was the right thing to do. She sees right through Dany and sees the destructive tyrant in her, the implusive one who’s charging the North’s exhausted armies into a battle despite them not being ready. Dany has been constantly ignorant to her and the one time she did try to make it right she tried to manipulate Sansa, which didn’t work.

      Also yes, Dany helped. But so did Sansa. She was the only person who gave a fuck about the North and wanting to take it back, even Jon wanted to retire south. She put Jon back on track and retook winterfell, which she then successfully prepared for winter. The WW threat steam rolls Bran and Westeros if not for any of that.

      Sansa has every reason to believe Dany is bad news. She has every reason to believe Jon would make a great ruler. She’ll never be like Cersei because she has empathy and love for people, more so than Dany, who’s completely ok with burning innocent people alive to conquer the realm, despite her claim now being moot. She’s the selfish one, the one more like Cersei. As for Sansa being power hungry? She refused the North the instant Jon offered it. Dany is begging Jon not to destroy her claim.

      Nice post.

      Sansa looks really strong. Clear headed decision-making. Looking very “queenly”.

      I wonder what contrivance will get Sansa and Brienne the Banged down to KL. They have Bran so it will not just be a matter on heading down for a stroll.

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    205. Cosca:
      Nick20,

      People cried about how bad Unbowed Unbent Unbroken was for weeks and it still has a better score. Hundreds of people were giving this latest episode 1 star on IMDB even before the leaks…how could it be more toxic lol

      Exactly. GOT is popular enough now that it must be taken down by a small vocal group of online fans. This same thing happens over and over again with other major nerd phenomena.

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    206. Jack Bauer 24: Wouldn’t AeJon/Dany and everyone else being distracted by that revelation put AeJon in danger

      Sansa surely knows, that Dany knows. So in her understanding, that fact puts Jon already in danger (if Jon had an “accident”, Dany’s claim would be uncontested again). And she did notice, that Tyrion is afraid of Dany. Remember also that Sansa graduated Baelish University where you try to imagine every possible outcome, yada yada and so on. So, she basically said that she was afraid for Jon, so maybe she hoped that by telling Tyrion, Jon would have a possible ally in the south. She knows Tyrion has a good heart and is fond of Jon, so…

      Apart from that, I found that conversation all kinds of weird. Tyrion tried to read Sansa and failed to understand what was happening with her. He even made it clear to her that if Jon went south, she would rule the North alone. Did you notice any satisfaction there or joy? So, obviously, that wasn’t her problem at all. Tyrion could not get it out of her and when he asked her to look at him, she was trying to hold back tears. Wtf?

      Anyone who watched it closely, listended to the dialogue and looked in the actor’s faces, should really not come away with “Sansa wants power”. Do make an effort!

      Seriously, if anything, she’s extremely sad that Jon is leaving. She also came off as jelly, not because of power, but because Jon followed Dany and did not stay with her. I know it sounds all kinds of weird, but she was sooo emotional. I’m not touching the whole Jonsa business, but I must say, her anti-Dany stance makes much more sense, if we take a very personal issue into account. (Or the writers are just trolling.) You know, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck…

      Moreover, Sophie already told us in one of her interviews that Sansa would fight a passionate fight this season and that she has to go behind a few backs and risks tearing apart her family.

      I’m quite sure she would not do that lightly and surely not for her own selfish gain. That girl is long gone. There was character development the last few seasons, even if haters choose to ignore it. Get with the program!

      PS. Also I do agree with Summer’s post. The blocked POV is kind of annoying. They are going to pull the same crab, they did last season with LF. We’re not going to get to see the Stark’s kid’s scheme play out on screen (I assume Arya and Bran are be in on it), we’re only gonna get the TWIST. Which is sad, because it seems thta we don’t get Winterfell at all next episode 🙁

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    207. I’ve raged about Sansa my fair share – last season with the BotB, etc, I raged about her character – but how on earth are people hating on her here?

      1) It shows Dany to be power-hungry that she makes Jon swear to never tell a soul that he’s the real heir to the throne so she can have it. Her whole spiel has been that she is the rightful heir. Now she’s NOT – and she wants him to lie about it, to his own family?

      2) Sansa does love Jon – she even says quite clearly, he’s just as much Ned Stark’s son as anyone else

      3) She tries to stop him going south multiple times. She says she doesn’t want him to go. She says bad things happen when Starks go south. Why is everyone acting like she sent him to KL to maneuver?

      4) She thinks Jon is better than Dany. Not just for the North, although obviously that’s her consideration – and why the hell not. But she also thinks he’s better in general, that much is obvious in her conversation with Tyrion, because she KNOWS Tyrion must be questioning Dany too.

      5) I really do think it’s her way also of protecting Jon. If he’s just Jon Snow, Dany’s lover who bent the knee, it’s not as important that he be protected by her advisors. But if he’s Aegon, well isn’t there an incentive for people like Tyrion to watch out for him? Because Sansa knows that Tyrion is convincing himself Dany is better than she may be.

      This isn’t some evil deed. Ned kept the secret because of Robert Baratheon and the Lannisters. Jon is an adult now, a fighter and was King of the North, not an innocent baby that Ned Stark brought home to protect.

      The whole premise of Dany’s arc is that the Iron Throne was hers by birthright. It’s not anymore. The fact that she wants to hide that – does it make her any different than anyone else? One of the main points GRRM makes is that power also corrupts. It’s corrupted her, in a way.

      Dany has always shown the “fire and blood” tendency. Jon has not. If Sansa sees that, it makes her evil?

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    208. ygritte,

      That doesn’t really make sense based on what we saw. Tyrion already reassured her that she would basically hold power in The North. And she explicitly said that she doesn’t want Jon to go south because “the men in my family don’t do well in the capital” (I think that’s an understatement).

      She told Tyrion that she thought Jon would be a better ruler.

      I don’t think there’s been any hint that she doesn’t love and value Jon over the past few seasons. She spent most of Season 7 either begging him not to leave Winterfell or wishing he would come back.

      I don’t want to reopen the old BotB debates, but she clearly looked concerned, open mouthed and breathing deeply, when Jon went charging off after Ramsay. The notion that she was disappointed that Jon survived is completely baseless.

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    209. Sadly I saw the same on Westeros.org where people intentionally give a one star rating because they feel aggrieved by the direction show is going. Apparently there were 2000 one star ratings before the episode even aired. Most of the blowback seems to be coming from Dany fans this week, last week it was another section of the community.

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    210. I don’t really know how I feel about this episode. There were many great moments, it just felt so depressing seeing things fall apart so much after the wonderfully intimate 8×02 and the triumphant 8×03. I know, I know.. this is Game of Thrones, so it’s par for the course. It just makes me very nervous for the last two episodes, and I suppose that’s what they want us to feel, so good on them there I suppose. 🙂

      One thing I found very frustrating though is how we didn’t get to see the reaction of Arya and Sansa to Jon’s reveal. Like, really!?

      I don’t know if I’ll have a proper opinion on this episode until I see how this all ends. We’ll see..

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    211. Inga:

      Maybe, Theon’s room? Would be fitting for a highborn foster son.

      Yes! Oh that’s a great idea – and has broken my heart all over again! 😭

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    212. Jon Snowed:
      Sadly I saw the same on Westeros.org where people intentionally give a one star rating because they feel aggrieved by the direction show is going. Apparently there were 2000 one star ratings before the episode even aired. Most of the blowback seems to be coming from Dany fans this week, last week it was another section of the community.

      Having seen this in other fandoms, arguing with toxic types, or people with irrational agendas is pointless. The people who love a thing eventually determine its perception, even if it takes many years… anger is fleeting, love lasts far longer.

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    213. Is anyone else concerned about Winterfell and the remaining people there? I know we are supposed to think the WW threat is over. Personally I’m not sold that it is. Twists and all. But we just seen basically every fighter but a heartbroken Brienne leave Winterfell. Either it’s a huge obvious signal the fighting is over in the north or we are gonna get another surprise.

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    214. LeoraRufus: Dany has put her people and Dragons into this mess and how soon was that forgotten? She lost her most loyal friends. Her sons. Now they itch to toss her aside for a male. I hope they all find a way to trust each other as Cersei is using their emotions against them.

      Grow up Tyrion, your sister is an evil bitch. And her pregnancy should result in the most robust premature baby ever.

      Can a girl hope Ghost follows Jon?

      I also feel Dany has received an awful lot of scorn considering she has saved everyone with her armies. I do love her character, but also see the dark, impulsive parts of her nature. I don’t know if she would make a good ruler. I think Daario had the right of it, she is a conquerer, a saviour to many, but a good and steady ruler? I don’t think so. Her time in Mereen showed that. She wanted to impose her will on her new subjects because she felt she had the moral superiority to do so. We agree with her convictions coming from a 21st century perspective, but that doesn’t change that she wasn’t very good at ruling, in as much as she was at imposing her will, as conquerors do.

      The part I bolded is something I disagree with however. The male aspect shouldn’t have come in to play and isn’t relevant as Jon is the only surviving true-born child of Rhaegar Targaryen, who was the heir to the iron throne. That puts him ahead of Dany in the line of succession without even taking gender into account.

      I also don’t think Varys’ scheming and Tyrion’s begrudgingly entertaining the conversation is due to her being a woman, but more due to her impulsiveness and her ‘burn cities to the ground’ rhetoric that she often comes out with when threatened or angered.

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    215. Meg,

      Well, Jon started with a good intent: he basicly told his sisters, that Dany is family, too, assuming they would get the point. Unfortunately…
      So, I wonder what his attitude to Sansa will be after he discovers the treason. Not sure, whether he’ll be in a position to punish her, but I don’t think he’ll trust her again on any issue.

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    216. Bran was instrumental in defeating the NK. He laid out the plans to lure him to the Godswood, he knew how the NK would be defeated and gave Arya the blade to do the deed.

      He (and/or the LOL) likely set all or many of the wheels in motion to bring all the characters to where they needed to be, at the given time. He even says as much to Theon, in their scene at the Godswood.

      Bran also checks out to ensure all the others were in place and gives Theon a final nudge to distract the NK to allow Arya time to strike.

      My bet is we’ve not seen the last of Bran’s powers either; he could well warg into Drogon to bring him down during Dany’s rampage (you will never walk again but you will fly).

      Ten Bears:
      Sersis,

      So far Bran has been pretty useless. Why all the trouble and sacrifice to save him in S6?

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    217. From what I can tell the episode did not leak just certain plot points, thus would potentially explain 2000 people giving a strongbepisode a one star rating.

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    218. Ghostgirl:

      I love how Tormund and Jon have become real friends when they were enemies I also wondered if Ghost wouldn’t go and try and get Tormund to go south to help Jon. I do feel Jon would get a semblence of happiness if he just went north and stayed away from the rest of Westeros.

      Yes indeed. Jon did the absolutely best thing he could do for Ghost, sending him off with his trusted friend to the only place he could truly be happy and free. If Jon survives the next battle, I hope he can at least visit them one day.

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    219. Suitably Ironic,

      They have the worst generals since WWI.

      Considering that Tolkein wrote LOTR about the experience in WWI and GRMM emulates him, that pretty much is par for the course. So very stupid on so many levels, very much like WWI

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    220. Sersis:
      The whole tragedy with Rhaegal being shot down / fleet decimated / Missandei captured and killed could have been easily avoidable. Bran can see the past and present clearly, he was present during the war council. I understand that he is detached most of the time and needs someone to focus his attention on specific topic to find out detailed information, but come on! By this time most of the key characters are familiar with his power! Why none of them tried to do a ‘google search’ right then and there about: what are the assets / forces under Cercei control? Where are her armies located? What weapons do they have? etc. The fact that they failed to utilize their most reliable source of information is beyond me.

      Lest we forget that Bran said he lives in the past. I don’t remember the 3 Eyed Raven being able to predict the future. Am I forgetting something?

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    221. Jenny:
      I am really quite upset by the Jaime/Brienne thing.I can’t believe that he would sleep with her then leave her after everything they have been to each other.I am hoping that he is planning to end Cersei, but am also prepared for a massive disappointment.

      Well, he could not just stay in WF doing nothing for the two biggest GOT episodes.

      That said, he may not survive this trip and leave Brienne in WF wondering forever.

      They did not just have a one-night stand, they were basically living together for a few weeks at least. When he was leaving and Brienne held his face and spoke with him -that whole exchange said she was a woman very emotionally intimate with Jaime. Jaime has always had lots of layers in him – Brienne knows it.

      I hope they do not go with Jaime dead, Brienne pregnant. If Jaime dies (and he might!) then I hope she leaves for Tarth with no baby.

      As for the virginity, well Brienne was whipping his shirt off so fast – I think she was willing to bed Jaime for some time. And of course, he did wiggle into her bedroom.

      I suppose it could have been a candlelight seduction bear rug with a marriage proposal then a solemn promise of return when he left for KL – but this is also fun too.

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    222. I’m a bit surprised about the negative reaction and low rating for this episode. I really liked it. I knew something bad was going to happen when everyone was so happy at the feast. It all felt very logical and typical GOT for me and everyone acted in character.

      I hadn’t expected Missandei to die this episode, but I knew one of them was going to die this season because they were too happy. I only wonder what is going to be the sweet part of bittersweet.

      From what I read here, a lot of people expected the remaining dragons to die this season, only not this episode. I don’t think there were many other ways to kill off Rhaegal. And I guess Drogon will somehow die in the fight next episode.

      Euron is very good in surprise attacks, he already proved that last season. I think Dany and co were a bit over confident after destroying the Nigh King. They must have thought: if they can defeat dead, they sure can defeat the living. Since Dany hatched her dragons she really believed she was destined for the Iron Throne, but that belief is going to destroy her. It’s like those very rich/famous people who think no-one can harm them, but they end broke, alone without real friends, or meet an early death because of their own doing.

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    223. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I agree with your comments. I’m angry at the show for not okaying more episodes to flush out these characters and the story. This episode felt odd, disjointed and rushed at times. I’m not sure Dany would have disregarded all of the advise and endangered her wounded dragon to rush off literally the next day to fight the “last fight”. Game of Thrones has held my interest because of the rich character developments, the world and wild storylines. (Thank you George RR Martin.) I never jumped out of an episode for plausibility the way I did in this episode. I feel a lot of the work from George RR Martin was undermined with this rushed episode. Jon and Dany felt out of character and Sansa’s slanted change this season seems too abrupt and not true to her character. However, Arya and the Hound seemed true to themselves and the story. Also, boo to the amateur writer who again decided in episode 2 to knock Jon’s height, Dany: “Someone taller”. I’m so sick of writer’s “clever” hobnobs that bounce me out of the story. These dialogue hits remind me of immature teenager comments made to try and sound clever.

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    224. Che,

      I am right behind you! Bleak and hopeless are exactly my feelings right now.
      This is not “bittersweet”. This is not anywhere near “bittersweet”. This is just gut-wrenching, heart-ripping tragedy of the darkest kind. And I can only speak for myself, but you are right: I am neither ready nor willing to read/watch a story ending so utterly, utterly hopeless.
      I don’t give a f*** if it is more realistic this way. I have enough “real” everytime I watch the news. Thank you very much. And no, Sam and Gilly living happily ever after, sitting on a bench and reading books are no compensation. NOT.AT.ALL.
      So, yes. Please. Write fanfiction. There are already some really amazing ones out there, but I fear I will need all I can get to recharge my belief that love can be true, that honesty and honour are actually good things, that fate is not carved in stone and that coming together to fight a common enemy can actually lead into something new and good for everyone.

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    225. Che:

      I also feel Dany has received an awful lot of scorn considering she has saved everyone with her armies. I do love her character, but also see the dark, impulsive parts of her nature. I don’t know if she would make a good ruler. I think Daario had the right of it, she is a conquerer, a saviour to many, but a good and steady ruler? I don’t think so. Her time in Mereen showed that. She wanted to impose her will on her new subjects because she felt she had the moral superiority to do so. We agree with her convictions coming from a 21st century perspective, but that doesn’t change that she wasn’t very good at ruling, in as much as she was at imposing her will, as conquerors do.

      It’s extremely tough for her to be in this strange place saving all these people and having nothing to show for it. Each of her victories in Essos resulted in almost immediate gratification and adulation – not so in Westeros, a place she feels should be on their knees already due to House Targaryen’s “rightful” place as the ruling house. She’s a good person whose innate sense of right and wrong has led her to do incredible, incredibly difficult things like free as many slave cities as she could, but it may also be her downfall. Losing Rhaegal (supposedly!) and Missandei will make her want to burn the world down in her distress and self-righteousness. It draws a further contrast with Jon. He wanted to ride down south when he heard about Ned’s death, but stayed in the NW and did his duty. I’m sure he’s wanted to destroy Cersei and co a thousand times over for what House Lannister did to House Stark (Red Wedding, etc) but didn’t because he knew it wouldn’t get them anywhere. Cersei and Euron need to be removed from power, but what is the acceptable cost to do so?

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    226. THere lies the problem UUU, the Dance of Dragons, Beyond the Wall are significantly weaker than anything we’ve seen this season at least in my opinion. Yet people are trolling largely because their expectations are not being matched with the plot direction.

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    227. ygritte,

      I have to disagree. I’ve definitely picked apart Sansa’s character decisions in the BotB to death and I still have quibbles with some other stuff she decides to do, but I don’t think she’s out for herself and power. It’s clear to me that she really truly loves Jon, Arya, and Bran. This is supported by the showrunners and writers if you won’t take my word for it 😉 But seriously, I think Sansa’s love for her siblings is there, especially considering they’re all each other have left of the family they knew growing up.

      But I’m also surprised and disappointed at the direction the writers are having Dany take. I was so, so, so sure Dany would ultimately be happy she’s not alone, she’s not the last Targaryen, and this would mean more than the Iron Throne. You know, the whole deal in the books with the red-doored house and her happiest memories being there and with Drogo when she was pregnant. I’m super sad about how they look to be going the Mad Queen route. Also shows what I know X_X

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    228. Apollo:
      Bran was instrumental in defeating the NK. He laid out the plans to lure him to the Godswood, he knew how the NK would be defeated and gave Arya the blade to do the deed.
      As Sam pointed out in a previous episode, “Bran is the entire history of Westeros. History, indicating past. Not future.”

      He (and/or the LOL) likely set all or many of the wheels in motion to bring all the characters to where they needed to be, at the given time. He even says as much to Theon, in their scene at the Godswood.

      Bran also checks out to ensure all the others were in place and gives Theon a final nudge to distract the NK to allow Arya time to strike.

      My bet is we’ve not seen the last of Bran’s powers either; he could well warg into Drogon to bring him down during Dany’s rampage(you will never walk again but you will fly).

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    229. Thank you for the recap, David! I thought this was a great episode. For me, the one word that would describe this episode is foreboding. The Starks are separating again, Jon left his direwolf – which in the books is a huge thing. Cat literally felt dread because Robb put aside Greywind at the Freys. Arya leaving again with no intention of returning. Sansa becoming more and more of a conspirator. If you would allow me a moment of obnoxiousness, I totally called Bronn arriving in this episode, and I thought he would kill Tyrion but I was wrong about that. I don’t think it’s too out of character for Bronn at all. I expected it.

      Also, there is now more ominous music when there are shots of Dany and she does indeed have a one-track mind: instead of googly heart eyes, she has googly eyes with the Iron Throne at the core. However, I don’t want to claim she’s descending into madness, only because it is so obvious, and because it is obvious, I have to wonder if it is a red herring for viewers. In the trailer for next week’s episode, she looked more despondent – her hair is loose, she seems to be in a robe, and she’s leaning on a pillar looking out at sea. I assumed Missandei’s death would be a trigger for her to not hold back (even Missandei’s last words were a call to “light them up” as David said), but I wonder if this makes Dany question her one-track mind instead. Also Varys knows about the underground tunnels in King’s Landing – couldn’t he inform Dany of this and couldn’t they potentially strategise sneaking the common people OUT of the city? It’s only a matter of what tunnels are still in use after the Wildfire explosion. “The Targaryens built this city to withstand a siege….and provide an escape if necessary,” – Varys to Tyrion in Blackwater. Honestly, why hold out on this info?

      I will probably get some hate for this but honestly, I would rather it had been Tyrion who died instead of Missandei. But that’s my own personal bias because I loved her so. This death cut me deep. However, if it’s her death that would cause Dany to reconsider her one-track mind, I will very reluctantly accept it. And as always, I hope that Iron Throne does NOT exist by the end of the series. I honestly don’t mind if both Dany and Jon die, as long as that Iron Throne also perishes, I will be satisfied.

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    230. Hanni:
      Che,

      I am right behind you! Bleak and hopeless are exactly my feelings right now.
      This is not “bittersweet”. This is not anywhere near “bittersweet”. This is just gut-wrenching, heart-ripping tragedy of the darkest kind. And I can only speak for myself, but you are right: I am neither ready nor willing to read/watch a story ending so utterly, utterly hopeless.
      I don’t give a f*** if it is more realistic this way. I have enough “real” everytime I watch the news. Thank you very much. And no, Sam and Gilly living happily ever after, sitting on a bench and reading books are no compensation. NOT.AT.ALL.
      So, yes. Please. Write fanfiction. There are already some really amazing ones out there, but I fear I will need all I can get to recharge my belief that love can be true, that honesty and honour are actually good things, that fate is not carved in stoneand that coming together to fight a common enemy can actually lead into something new and good for everyone.

      Honestly, the thing that bugs me the most is it isn’t more “realistic.” The bad guys having every last thing break their way is no more realistic than the good guys having every last thing break their way. Realistic is the stronger force with the better claim and the love of the people actually winning, not well, they would have won but Cersei gets some last-minute help from a 10,000 year old ice demon hell bent on decimating the greatest army the world has ever seen and then dying at the last second so only the good will suffer. This is the allies are about to land at Normandy but aliens attack. The good guys beat the aliens but almost all die. Hitler wins. Oh wow, how gritty and non-Hollywood.

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    231. I have to watch the next episode on my tablet in Korea in a hotel room alone.

      Somebody help me

      Are we seeing a battle next week? Fire and Blood, I want it sooooooooooo badly

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    232. “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.”

      GRRM has often cited that Faulkner quote, and has explained it as sort of a guide for his own writing.

      If that quote means anything for ASOIAF and isn’t just a fancy quote from a famous author that George likes to trot out in interviews, the big twist from “The Long Night “will probably play out similarly in the books, should we ever be graced with them. The Long Night will probably not be nearly as long as we might have expected it be in that medium, as well. Why? Because when it comes to the human heart being in conflict with its self, a battle against the immutable and inexorable forces of death doesn’t really inspire much conflict, at least not within the human heart. The stakes are simple; victory is life, defeat is death.

      This episode makes one thing pretty clear. If you were expecting the ending of this story to include the struggle against the Night King (and I was one of them), you were wrong. They are, at this point, well and truly behind us.

      And this strong episode shows us that this isn’t a bad thing. “What were the White Walkers even about?” I have seen that question asked many times since last week. Well, my opinion, and Who knows if it is anywhere close to being correct, is that the White Walkers are another subversion of classic fantasy tropes. Tolkien made a stab at it with the Scouring of the Shire, but GRRM will likely lean even further into upending the classic “good wins, evil loses, everyone lives happily ever after” trope. The living won, but now what? The human heart will always be the human heart. Victory over inexorable death doesn’t mean the survivors will settle down into a Westerosi hippy commune. Jealousies and rivalries will reappear, conflicts put on the back burner will flare up, and peace will be as elusive and fleeting as it always is.

      To wit, the coalition that won the war against the Dead appears on the brink of permanent fissure. Daenerys is bent on claiming that uncomfortable iron chair from Cersei, because even after setting aside her desires and fighting in the literal apocalypse, she can’t accept settling for anything less than what she has set up in her head as her destiny.

      In this case, her destiny is leading her down a dark path. Dany has always had a ruthless side, and a temper to match it. She has endorsed murder, torture, cruelty, and indiscriminate forms of “justice” against those who wrong her. Tell me, Dany fans, do you really think that Astapor and Meereen are better off for her having been there?

      Dany has always felt isolated in Westeros, and there is good reason for that. She is not from Westeros. Her family ruled the Seven Kingdoms for hundreds of years, but it has been decades since the last Targaryen king, and she has spent her entire life in exile. The people of Westeros do not know her, and the thing they most remember about her family is the Mad King, who burned the innocent because the voices in his head told him to. She was always going to receive the outsider’s treatment, to be seen as an invading conqueror, because that is what she is.

      Instead of relying on the dragons being the manifestation of her power and ruthlessness, she has been overly reliant on displays of “my way or the highway” style leadership. Burning the Tarlys alive had no strategic or political value whatsoever, but she did it anyways because they spurned her and she could. Again, she demonstrated that her kind of justice is neither rational nor merciful.

      Now, she finds herself alone in a strange land, with almost all of her original advisors, the only ones who were ever capable of tempering her worst impulses, dead and gone. In their absence, she has let those impulses guide her. Her lover has become her greatest threat, at least as long as she clings to her own self-imposed destiny. Cersei Lannister has bested her at every turn.

      The roadblocks that once held her in check are all gone.

      Perhaps worst of all, she has now put herself in the position of asking a man she professes to love to deny his identity, an identity he has searched his entire life to get answers about, because it is inconvenient to her claim. She has lived her whole life with the belief that she has the best claim to the Iron Throne of Westeros, but now she knows that is not the case. Her response to that inconvenient truth has been revealing, and not in a good way.

      If you believe that GRRM and Faulkner are right about the human heart, there was a lot to like about this episode. One can only hope that something changes between now and the finale, otherwise our ending appears to be a lot more bitter than sweet.

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    233. Elizabeth,

      But Bran doesn’t need to predict the future (even if he can). Bran just needs to warg some birds (or a dragon) and scope it out ahead of time. Heck, Ser is pretty docile these days. Just warg into him and chop Cersei’s head off. Problem solved.

      The problem imo is Bran has a distinct advantage in this society with how slow information travels. He can “travel” long distances and see many things at once. IMO it feels that Bran’s power gets “forgotten” to cause tension and then anything that follows that tension feels illogical (ie Daeny being surprised attacked again by Euron, in like the same place as the first time no less).

      Perhaps Bran has some master plan but I don’t see the foundation for that and there’s a lot of explaining to do around why he hasn’t intervened more around Cersei.

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    234. Lady High Heart: Tristan has probably become Prince of Dorne and has a grudge against Cersi for breaking up his wedding plans thus causing the death of Myrcella.

      I’m just working my way through so maybe someone mentioned it… It sounds like you’ve forgotten that Trystane was killed by the Sand Snakes on the ship? You know, the spear through the back of his head and all that…

        Quote  Reply

    235. Che,

      Indeed. For the moment, I feel like I’ll be watching Chernobyl miniseries tomorrow just to recover my belief that there’s something good in this world and that our world (even when it comes to the Soviet Union) is much better, than this sick fantasy. But the night is darkest before the dawn, so I still keep hope that Jon (and Tyrion) will make it work somehow: Dany may not be the best person on the Planetos but she’s definitely worth saving.

        Quote  Reply

    236. HousePotterz:
      Tell me, Dany fans, do you really think that Astapor and Meereen are better off for her having been there?

      Did you not see the part where she ended slavery and a centuries-old system of oppression? Unquestionably Slaver’s Bay is better off for her having been there.

        Quote  Reply

    237. Sam: Me, too! Dracarys! Time for her to adhere Lady Olenna’s advice: “You are a dragon. Be a dragon.”

      Tho… that’s gotten to be “Be a smart dragon” .

        Quote  Reply

    238. Che: I also feel Dany has received an awful lot of scorn considering she has saved everyone with her armies. I do love her character, but also see the dark, impulsive parts of her nature. I don’t know if she would make a good ruler. I think Daario had the right of it, she is a conquerer, a saviour to many, but a good and steady ruler? I don’t think so. Her time in Mereen showed that. She wanted to impose her will on her new subjects because she felt she had the moral superiority to do so. We agree with her convictions coming from a 21st century perspective, but that doesn’t change that she wasn’t very good at ruling, in as much as she was at imposing her will, as conquerors do.

      The part I bolded is something I disagree with however. The male aspect shouldn’t have come in to play and isn’t relevant as Jon is the only surviving true-born child of Rhaegar Targaryen, who was the heir to the iron throne. That puts him ahead of Dany in the line of succession without even taking gender into account.

      I also don’t think Varys’ scheming and Tyrion’s begrudgingly entertaining the conversation is due to her being a woman, but more due to her impulsiveness and her ‘burn cities to the ground’ rhetoric that she often comes out with when threatened or angered.

      Daario is the one person that gets Dany as a conqueror not a Queen shut away in a castle. Her and Arya may have a bit in common with the need to be on the move. Dany does tend to verbally express her worst instincts and I’m still hoping everyone can get it together cause if Dany loses how many go with her. Crossing my fingers here.

      I do think that they are a bit in love with the idea of a male King.

        Quote  Reply

    239. Dark Sister,

      Yes, but Missandei death would mean more to both Grey Worm and Daenerys.

      Tyrion would just mildly bother Worm and give Varys a promotion.

      Plus it was time Missy served a purpose beyond decoration. It did reduce the speaking POC by 50% but it is an important part of the story.

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    240. Adam,

      Khal? I wonder if we’ve met! My daughter and I went to Con last year, and I have several pics of her with a couple of Khals. (She was Oberyn.)

      My husband came along for the trip, but he just hung out at the bar and admired the costumes. 😀

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    241. fdr,

      Let’s keep in mind that Jon is an apple from the same tree, and a pathological scheemer like Varys may drive crazy even the sainiest man: if Dany is too hard, Jon will be too soft; he might embark on Sansa just to decide that she is a scheemer and then to replace her with Gendry to find out that he’ll be like his father, etc. In other words, he will always be looking for a perfect ruler.
      But there are no perfect rulers – just people with their flaws. And they have to learn to live and work together: rulers, lords, adwisosrs, ets. Dany is a drastic situation, but someone must come up with a plan how to win and minimise bloodshed. Otherwise, there will be both defeat and bloodshed.

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    242. As a general rule….

      Targs are great conquerors but mostly bad rulers.

      Starks are slow witted but great rulers for their people.

        Quote  Reply

    243. Chilli,

      I don’t think it matters who Bran cares about. What matters is the power he has and the fact that no one seems to want to use it.

      I mean, have Daenerys ask Bran for help. Bran can A) reject, B) help, or C) say he can help and then not help.

      The part that doesn’t read is that Daenerys doesn’t ask and neither does anyone else. So if Bran has some ill will against Daeny, when it manifests, it (the betrayal) will have foundation.

      ^None of this explains why Daenerys is so horrible at recon while riding a dragon.

        Quote  Reply

    244. MattB:
      On the subject of avoiding the scorpion attack – yes they could probably have seen the ships from the air, but they have much better (and far too underused) way

      John: “Hey Bran, pop on over to Kingslanding and let us know what Cersei has been planning”

      Bran: Goes all white eyed for a bit….”right she’s covered all of the castle in a crap load of scorpions and is going to send Euron’s fleet to try and ambush Danny”

      Danny: “right well then, guess I’m not going to Dragonstone ”

      I totally agree. And speaking of Bran, I’m still puzzled by what exactly the previous Three Eyed Raven meant by “you will never walk, but you will fly.” Can’t have been just warging into ravens, as Mr Computer has also warged into direwolves, into Hodor… in short, into creatures that walked. So, what did it mean?

        Quote  Reply

    245. Points to ponder…
      1) Why the heck didn’t Dany go BEHIND Euron’s fleet an simply BBQ them? It’s not she couldn’t see the Kraken on the sails.
      2) Poor Tormumd. Better luck next time.
      3) Jon Snow SHOULDN’T know anything. He’s a blabber mouth.

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    246. Oh no Dee! I have a similar challenge that I am on vacation in the US for the final two episodes and hoping the place we stay has HBO. You may want to check you can still see from your tablet as I know there are region restrictions for example we cannot watch SKy GO (our version of HBO) outside the uk without using a VPN to trick the server.

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    247. BranStark:
      Someone posted on reddit a picture from the episode that hasstarbucks coffee cup in the winterfell…lols 🙂

      I just saw that. Funny as hell. All that production and they missed that!

      Jon went to STARKBucks!

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    248. Couple of my thoughts.

      – Overall I enjoyed the episode, tho it had a few head scratching moments.
      – How does a starbucks cup make it through editing on the world’s most expensive TV show?? Especially when the show was delayed by over a year.
      – Rhaegal is fish food people. The last bolt literally imploded his neck. He gone.
      – Their version of ‘Never have I ever’ during the booze-feast just felt, goofy.
      – Gendry, poor fella. At least he’ll always have that romp on the rice sacks.
      – Ghost, comeON Aegon. Give the pup a Milkbone and a pat on the head.
      – The comment about the Prince of Dorne was out of left left field.
      – WHAT DA FUQ DOES BRAN DO ON THIS SHOW? His character, I just don’t know anymore.
      -Cersei – Please make her death (and we better see her deader then hell) the most epic one on this show.
      – 2 weeks left. Holy cow

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    249. Hey Guys . I Have a Question.
      when tormond was praising Jon in the feast , he said “i saw him riding that thing and that’s why we all agreed to follow him”
      what is “That Thing” that Jon Rode ?
      does he mean a dragon ?
      because i can’t remember jon riding anything back in season 5-6 , except a horse .

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    250. Sam,

      I totally agree Sam. This show has been a big part of our lives for years now. That alone, without character deaths, makes me want to savor every minute.

        Quote  Reply

    251. Bor Mullet:
      Jon sending Ghost away wasn’t a budget thing. It’s symbolic. He’s sending his spirit animal away. It means he’s going to die.

      Arya also sent Nymeria away in season 1 and both are still alive and well. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    252. Apollo,

      I didn’t realize it was Dany’s dragons, my mistake and for the wildfire I thought it was from the sept. Good to know, I thought it was all about the history. Thanks for the clarification!

        Quote  Reply

    253. Joey,

      AGREED!!! I never knew the showrunners took the money bait of Star Wars and all but abandoned the chance for an excellent last season. Divided and pressured to make good on the incoming money and “oh well” attitude of the finishing show. SAD!!! I will not watch their Star Wars show! Yes I’m being petty but still.
      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I agree with your comments. I’m angry at the show for not okaying more episodes to flush out these characters and the story. This episode felt odd, disjointed and rushed at times. I’m not sure Dany would have disregarded all of the advise and endangered her wounded dragon to rush off literally the next day to fight the “last fight”. Game of Thrones has held my interest because of the rich character developments, the world and wild storylines. (Thank you George RR Martin.) I never jumped out of an episode for plausibility the way I did in this episode. I feel a lot of the work from George RR Martin was undermined with this rushed episode. Jon and Dany felt out of character and Sansa’s slanted change this season seems too abrupt and not true to her character. However, Arya and the Hound seemed true to themselves and the story. Also, boo to the amateur writer who again decided in episode 2 to knock Jon’s height, Dany: “Someone taller”. I’m so sick of writer’s “clever” hobnobs that bounce me out of the story. These dialogue hits remind me of immature teenager comments made to try and sound clever.

        Quote  Reply

    254. Brandon:
      6.54 rating on Tower of the Hand, that’s the lowest I remember for any episode.

      “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” still remains as their lowest rated of the series (for now) at 6.21. That episode of course has gotten to carry the worst rating on every site. As I’ve written on this site before, I think UnX3 is a pretty solid episode that was downgraded to oblivion due to two very short scenes (mainly the one).

      No episode of this show is worthy of a 1 vote from anyone. Viewers may not like what the characters do and say but it’s still a very well presented program with great acting and visuals. A 1 rating should be reserved for productions that are awful across the board.

        Quote  Reply

    255. I’m hoping that Jon doesn’t die in this war against Cersei (I’m resigned that he will). It isn’t really his fight. Daenerys lost Rhaegal but so did Jon. Jon sent Ghost away. I’m wondering if that means Jon is still a bit unsure who he is, but he has been wearing Stark armour again. (Btw, how did he find his cloak in all the mess?)

      I’m pretty sure Jon and Arya will meet up in KL but whether he sees Sansa and Bran again, I don’t know.

      I did find it interesting that Jon lead the funeral and not Dany or Sansa. I honestly thought Jon’s influence in the North was over but maybe it was just that Dany and Sansa were too upset.

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    256. Brandon:
      Super cool of Bran to give that heads up about the iron fleet waiting for the ambush. Worthless character.

      Sorry to pick on you but this post is a perfect example of a criticism of the show from somebody who has not been paying attention enough.

      This episode he mentions how he is in the past mostly. Last episode he says to Theon: “Everything you did brought you to where you are now. Where you belong. Home.” what if messing with Dany’s future would have a worse outcome for the overall future? He sees purpose for things happening.

        Quote  Reply

    257. HousePotterz:
      “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.”

      GRRM has often cited that Faulkner quote, and has explained it as sort of a guide for his own writing.

      If that quote means anything for ASOIAF and isn’t just a fancy quote from a famous author that George likes to trot out in interviews, the big twist from “The Long Night “will probably play out similarly in the books, should we ever be graced with them. The Long Night will probably not be nearly as long as we might have expectedit be in that medium, as well. Why? Because when it comes to the human heart being in conflict with its self, a battle against the immutable and inexorable forces of death doesn’t really inspire much conflict, at least not within the human heart. The stakes are simple; victory is life, defeat is death.

      This episode makes one thing pretty clear. If you were expecting the ending of this story to include the struggle against the Night King (and I was one of them), you were wrong. They are, at this point, well and truly behind us.

      And this strong episode shows us that this isn’t a bad thing. “What were the White Walkers even about?” I have seen that question asked many times since last week. Well, my opinion, and Who knows if it is anywhere close to being correct, is that the White Walkers are another subversion of classic fantasy tropes. Tolkien made a stab at it with the Scouring of the Shire, but GRRM will likely lean even further into upending the classic “good wins, evil loses, everyone lives happily ever after” trope. The living won, but now what? The human heart will always be the human heart. Victory over inexorable death doesn’t mean the survivors will settle down into a Westerosi hippy commune. Jealousies and rivalries will reappear, conflicts put on the back burner will flare up, and peace will be as elusive and fleeting as it always is.

      To wit, the coalition that won the war against the Dead appears on the brink of permanent fissure. Daenerys is bent on claiming that uncomfortable iron chair from Cersei, because even after setting aside her desires and fighting in the literal apocalypse, she can’t accept settling for anything less than what she has set up in her head as her destiny.

      In this case, her destiny is leading her down a dark path. Dany has always had a ruthless side, and a temper to match it. She has endorsed murder, torture, cruelty, and indiscriminate forms of “justice” against those who wrong her. Tell me, Dany fans, do you really think that Astapor and Meereen are better off for her having been there?

      Dany has always felt isolated in Westeros, and there is good reason for that. She is not from Westeros. Her family ruled the Seven Kingdoms for hundreds of years, but it has been decades since the last Targaryen king, and she has spent her entire life in exile. The people of Westeros do not know her, and the thing they most remember about her family is the Mad King, who burned the innocent because the voices in his head told him to. She was always going to receive the outsider’s treatment, to be seen as an invading conqueror, because that is what she is.

      Instead of relying on the dragons being the manifestation of her power and ruthlessness, she has been overly reliant on displays of “my way or the highway” style leadership. Burning the Tarlys alive had no strategic or political value whatsoever, but she did it anyways because they spurned her and she could. Again, she demonstrated that her kind of justice is neither rational nor merciful.

      Now, she finds herself alone in a strange land, with almost all of her original advisors, the only ones who were ever capable of tempering her worst impulses, dead and gone. In their absence, she has let those impulses guide her. Her lover has become her greatest threat, at least as long as she clings to her own self-imposed destiny. Cersei Lannister has bested her at every turn.

      The roadblocks that once held her in check are all gone.

      Perhaps worst of all, she has now put herself in the position of asking a man she professes to love to deny his identity, an identity he has searched his entire life to get answers about, because it is inconvenient to her claim. She has lived her whole life with the belief that she has the best claim to the Iron Throne of Westeros, but now she knows that is not the case. Her response to that inconvenient truth has been revealing, and not in a good way.

      If you believe that GRRM and Faulkner are right about the human heart, there was a lot to like about this episode. One can only hope that something changes between now and the finale, otherwise our ending appears to be a lot more bitter than sweet.

      Very good post!

        Quote  Reply

    258. Lady MarMar:
      Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      Presumably, the weapons are on swivels and can swing around.Swivel guns were used on ships from long ago.It would be foolish to have a weapon that can’t swivel, and Tyburn isn’t foolish, just creepy.That’s my guess.

      Yeah, but it looked like it would have been pretty hard to shoot them toward the back with the masts and sails in the way. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    259. I feel bad for showrunners who have to account for every last person trying to find a loophole to their story.

      Man the internet stinks sometimes. Lol

        Quote  Reply

    260. Jon’s speech made him sound like a king, I really liked that scene. Brianne and Jaime, finally, we have blue cubs, but then he does what??!! Doesn’t make any sense for his character arch. I expect Arya, the Hound, Daeny, Drogon, and all of Daeny’s army to die in the next episode. I don’t know what the hell the writers are doing, but they don’t seem to be giving much of a damn about the character’s arch’s, or the viewer’s time and emotional investment. And people need to get off Daney about going crazy. She is not crazy she is alone. She just watched another one of her children die in front of her, her relationship with Jon is shaky, to say the least, and she is mourning Ser Jorah, give her a break.

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    261. Rasool Sharifi,

      I think Tormund was just drunk hyping a buddy 🙂 He wasn’t the most coherent there, as shown in this exchange:

      Tormund: I saw him riding that thing.
      Davos: We all did.
      Tormund: No. No. I saw him riding that thing.
      Davos: That’s right. You did!
      Tormund: I did!

      Sort of reminds me of times when I get stoned with friends 😉

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    262. Adrianacandle,

      Yeah Tormund was so completely drunk there. I actually liked the levity of that scene. Jon saying ‘vomiting is not celebrating’. It showed the difference between Jon and Dany though. He is approachable but she is not. That was sad for Dany.

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    263. WhiteSparkle,

      No you are 100 percent correct. I’ve been resisting coming to terms with it for a few Seasons now, but this has now gone far beyond my worst fears of how much they could mess things up. I honestly don’t even know where to begin. And I’m not even a book-reader!

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    264. julia:
      Jon’s speech made him sound like a king, I really liked that scene.Brianne and Jaime, finally, we have blue cubs, but then he does what??!!Doesn’t make any sense for his character arch.I expect Arya, the Hound, Daeny, Drogon, and all of Daeny’s army to die in the next episode.I don’t know what the hell the writers are doing, but they don’t seem to be giving much of a damn about the character’s arch’s, or the viewer’s time and emotional investment.And people need to get off Daney about going crazy.She is not crazy she is alone.She just watched another one of her children die in front of her, her relationship with Jon is shaky, to say the least, and she is mourning Ser Jorah, give her a break.

      Isn’t that the problem? That Dany views her dragons as children. We all know that person who treats their dog as a child. It is weird.

      Both Dany and Cersei will have lost 3 of their “children” by the end of this. Both will have cause their deaths by being reckless with their handling of them.

      GRRM…. Women go mad.
      George Lucas…. Women are reason why men go evil.
      Tolkien… oh that is too long to unpack.

      And yes Dany is crazy. In season 2 she threatened to burn cities to the ground when somebody didn’t give her ships. She is the definition of crazy.

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    265. Jon Snowed,

      No I know, I do have restrictions for my streaming services with CRAVE TV for regions but I have another way 😉 lol

      When I was in China for work a few years ago they had HBO Asia, but in China they remove violence and nudity…. I don’t think it is the same in Korea… but who knows. I think my hotel will have HBO ASIA so I will have to see.

      If you are going to be in the USA and you are staying at a hotel, most likely there will be HBO!

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    266. The Bastard,

      Talking about bastards :
      Am I the only one bothered by the fact that Gendry doesn’t know is name ?
      Isn’t he supposed to be Gendry Waters as a bastard born in KL ? Before he propose to Arya, he tells her that he is not Gendry Rivers no more??? WTF !!
      Did I missed something ? Was he born in the Riverlands ?

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    267. A maybe minor point for the episode as a whole, but I don’t see Jaime as leaving Brienne because he’s just a jerk and is going back to Cersei because he loves her so.

      He initially made his decision to stay in the North with her, and seemed perfectly content and (as Tyrion noted) happy with his decision. Then, two things happened: Bronn pops up and tell Jaime and Tyrion that Cersei wants them both dead – nothing new to Tyrion, but Jaime didn’t seem to be expecting it. Then after that, he finds out that Daenerys has lost a dragon and that Cersei holds one of her advisors hostage.

      So Jaime now realizes that Cersei wants him dead, AND she appears to be winning the battle. If she wins and remains Qot7K, his life would always be in danger – and by extension, so would Brienne’s, if he stayed in the North with her. Because he knows Cersei, and knows the lengths she will go to in order to get revenge on someone… and man, if she found out that not only had Jaime walked away from her, but was with another woman, she would go completely ballistic.

      I suspect he’s either on his way back to her with the intention to kill her, or maybe (because I’m not sure he would murder her with the baby and all) just to get away from Brienne to keep her safe from Cersei, because staying with her would put a huge target on her. And knowing how Cersei would hurt her, he deploys the old Tyrion tactic of “drive her away by being mean”, just to try and make sure Brienne doesn’t follow him and potentially get herself captured and tortured.

      In short, although the scene made him look like a callous ass, I’m pretty certain he is trying to protect Brienne because he loves her.

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    268. Ghostgirl,

      I agree, I really loved the levity there – with Tormund and Sansa encouraging Jon to chug a horn-full of wine (that feels familiar!) and them all just palling around. I also liked the smiles Jon and Dany exchanged in that scene before, as Dany would say later, she remembered the sobering reality of their situation and she was witnessing what she once experienced much of across the Narrow Sea – Jon being beloved by the people around him, because they know him and like him, while Dany has yet to experience that in Westeros. It was kind of heartbreaking.

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    269. TR,

      I agree, as a viewer I felt very cheated by last nights episode. Sadly this whole season has felt rushed and like the writers just want to get it over and done. They don’t seem to be staying with the character’s arch’s that they have built for the past 7 seasons. If they don’t pull a rabbit out of the hat with these next 2 episodes, I will be done with HBO, and NOT be buying the box set.

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    270. This episode, like much of this season and last, feels too rushed. I feel like, as others have said, that we are getting the Sparknotes version of the story. I also feel that D&D are twisting characters and motivations in order to fit specific plot beats they want to hit, rather than doing the work to have the story develop organically. Making the characters wilfully stupid or OOC so that you can have contrived drama or have a reason to get a character from point A to point B, is the reason I stopped watching The Walking Dead several years ago. It’s simply hard to stay vested, when the characters with whom you are connected, behave in ways that are nonsensical. It’s disappointing, to say the least. So many things that are now, not going to pay off. A once complex and beautifully layered story, that seems to be on it’s way to an ending that is too condensed.

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    271. Adrianacandle,

      Dee Stark,

      I really did feel for her. She rode a dragon as well! I think it does show how Jon can fit in with people and Dany struggles. She is always ‘Your Grace’, ‘my Queen’ etc. I can see why that scene made her truly worry about her claim to the IT. If it became a choice between Dany and Jon it would seem that Jon gets a lot of support. I just wish they had shown a scene where she seemed truly happy not to be the last Targ.

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    272. WhiteSparkle,

      I feel the same. It’s strange that a show can bring out so many emotions, but following it from the beginning and being so invested, IDK, maybe we just expected too much from the writers.

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    273. I think I’m a bit shocked that some people are so sure that Dany dies, or that she goes Mad Queen, or that she isn’t in charge by the end.

      Does that not, er, completely negate eight years of story?

      I’m all for surprising the audience and such, but honestly… the entire purpose of following Dany’s storyline for eight seasons was to see a young woman grow to become a power, set to use that power judiciously, even with a few bumps along the way. What narrative purpose does it serve for Dany to become a villain at the end? That all power corrupts? Fine, but then her lessons on how to be a queen are just a waste of time.

      And wasting the time of the audience is NOT time well spent.

      Since I’m sure that the story is still GRRM’s and the producers are merely following his outline on how things shake out, I can’t believe that George would fail on such a monumental level as to allow Dany to end up a total failure. But then, I’m pretty certain that if this does end up “more bitter than sweet,” the audience is going to rage. Yeah, again, keep the audience in suspense… but there has to be SOME rewarding payoff. Killing Dany would not be that.

      The only thing that keeps me hopeful is that we were in this same predicament in season 7, everyone wondering how they could do something so monumentally stupid as pit Sansa against Arya and it ended up okay at the time. I really, really hope that’s the case here.

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    274. ygritte,

      Cersei has to wed Euron, because she must have a legitimate child. Afterwards she may kill Euron, but not before.
      And that said, I wonder, whether

      this alleged Red Wedding type event could be Red Wedding reverse?

      In fact, Cersei is very vulnerable: she depends on the GC, and the GC is paid by the IB who’s also its long-term customer. In other words, the IB can finish Cersei with a single word. And I assume Davos could convince the IB to do so, if the throne is claimed by Jon instead of Dany (or if they present a joint claim).

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    275. Reek,

      True, but he has also said that he thought the show could/should go for on several more seasons, in service of telling the story.

        Quote  Reply

    276. Che,
      For several years I have thought that Jon will survive, but disappear in the real North with Ghost. Now I think he will leave the Seven Kingdoms to be reunited with Ghost.
      I usually don’t predict anything, but this ending seems suitable for him, without being actually happy.

        Quote  Reply

    277. Mango,

      Obviously, you are correct and reasonable. It’s the same rationale D&D used in the featurettes. I just want to mourn Missandei and hate on the existing characters right now. Only for a bit. 😂😭😭

        Quote  Reply

    278. The Bastard,

      The reason people are upset is because the writing is actually quite disappointing from a character perspective. When you’ve watched a show for seven years, you’re going to remember dialogue and choices that it almost seems like the writers want us to forget to make this season plausible.
      Example:
      Season 7 Sansa: give the northern houses to the lords that were loyal to you.
      Season 8 Sansa: looks appalled when Dany does exactly this and gives Storms End to Gendry.

      I’m in it until the end because I’ve been here since the first episode aired…but that doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to be disappointed that a show that was so incredible because of the complex characters is now making those characters incomprehensible for the sake of rushing to the finish line.

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    279. Is it full circle if Varys is the reason for Dany’s death?
      He was the reason she was almost assassinated in season 1.

      Guys im stressed

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    280. Shy Lady Dragon:
      Che,
      For several years I have thought that Jon will survive, but disappear in the real North with Ghost. Now I think he will leave the Seven Kingdoms to be reunited with Ghost.
      I usually don’t predict anything, but this ending seems suitable for him, without being actually happy.

      I can’t see that happening. The Lord of Light giveth, and taketh away: Beric was brought back repeatedly just to make sure he was in the right place at the right time to keep Arya alive to battle the Night King. Jon *has* to have been given new life for a specific, yet untold reason. I really don’t think he’ll survive to the end, and I’m okay with that.

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    281. ShameShameShame: Arya was in character, though that scene was hard to watch. We all want Arya to be happy and safe but “that’s not her.” It is Sansa though. Perfect match. Endgame.

      I’ve seen you write the Sansa& Gendry thing multiple times and haven’t commented on it until now. I just want to know what about their characters makes you think they’re a “perfect match?” Is it simply like most of the Jonsa people that at the root of their desire is just wanting the best available man for Sansa? For starters they haven’t said one single word to each other yet. Gendry is in no way the type of man that Sansa has ever taken notice of – books supported as well. Gendry may now be (sort of) legitimized but he’s still not a lordly type of man in his mind or persona. If it continues to the point that he will be after the war I actually wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up relinquishing his seat as Lord Paramount of Storm’s End realizing and stating, “That’s not me.” If he and Arya both live through to the last I still think they’ll be together in some fashion.

      I won’t say that the S&G pairing isn’t a possibility, but what I wouldn’t like is them just sticking them together out of nowhere in the last episode. That’s what they’d have to do now and that to me does not say “perfect match.”

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    282. Adrianacandle,

      thank you .
      i thought that maybe i missed something before , despite watching the show at least hundreds of times .

      I Love that part when he talks about Jon fighting everywhere and gets very drunk/exited and spills his drink .

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    283. Ghostgirl,

      Yeah, and she has nobody to drunk hype her exploits (Greyworm and Missandei are new to wine!). However, that stuff takes time. Tormund and Jon have 6 years of very intense, significant history and became deeply bonded Fire Forged Friends after facing death personified together and working toward a common goal of saving his people. Dany could get something like that too! She has some significant disadvantages working against her in way of reputation and being viewed as a foreigner, which so sucks, but I wish the writers would have had Dany realize this is in her wheelhouse if she was patient and worked on having a relationship with the people of Westeros.

      But I totally understand how hurt she must be. It’s sort of like going to your boyfriend’s party after participating in a big school project with them: they’ll formally acknowledge your efforts like Tormund did with Dany but she’s not yet one of the gang.

      And I also wish the writers had Dany being happy, if conflicted, she’s not the last of her line.

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    284. Inga,

      I think the episode title, “The Last of the Starks”, may be prophetic. Since Bran won’t father a Stark child, there won’t be anyone with the Stark name after this generation dies.

        Quote  Reply

    285. Adam,

      Jon’s true identity was ALWAYS, I repeat ALWAYS, going to be a source of conflict. Internal conflict for someone who always defined himself as the son of a particular person, and who grew up to accept his bastard status then suddenly is told that everything he believed made him who he was was simply a lie. Gotta say that Jon is handling this as well as anyone could have hoped and in character too.

      It was always going to create conflict with Daenerys. Daenerys has been proclaiming to be a true dragon (to the point that she let her husband murder her brother) and the true heir to the Iron Throne since season one. She has never deviated from the belief that the Throne of Westeros belongs to her, as if she created it/bought it and someone came a grabbed it from her hands and ran away, and that anyone who sits on it is simply an usurper. So now she knows that there’s someone who has a stronger claim for the Targaryen inheritance. Someone who was likely born into his crown (Aerys and Rhaegar having died before his birth) and the only person who can actually claim the crown was taken from him. In theory, Dany can claim she wishes for a family, but she grew up without one so she doesn’t truly appreciate the value of one. It is rather tragic for her but she still has time to temper her dragon and reach out for happiness. Her visions in the HOTU, showed her future. Kingslanding will be left in ruins with Snow on the throne, she reaches out but never gets her hands on the throne because she’s distracted. She goes past the Wall and finds her family there but she also turns her back on that to dracarys someone. She does not need to turn her back on her family now. Jon is not making a claim on his rightful inheritance and that should be enough of an olive branch to Dany so that she in turn, let’s the North be independent but an associate if need be.

      And of course it would create conflict for those surrounding Jon and Dany. Like most elections in most countries, everyone has a favorite candidate, very rarely is there anyone with the full support of the majority of the citizenry.

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    286. Ghostgirl:
      Adrianacandle,

      Dee Stark,

      I just wish they had shown a scene where she seemed truly happy not to be the last Targ.

      This! Before the start of the season, I hoped that Dany would feel happy about the news that she’s not the last Targ, that she’s got family. Alas, that’s not so GOT-y though, I guess. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    287. Cosca,

      All Dany had to do was fly around Euron’s Ships and attack them from the backside where the Scorpions were not placed. That’s aeronautical tactics 101.

      Dany’s biggest problem is that she has no military commanders to give her basic advice. Tyrion has been outsmarted by his sister at almost every turn.

        Quote  Reply

    288. Man, the direwolves. I was sure we’d see Nymeria and her pack save Arya. I was also sure Ghost would be dead, so at least there’s that. But leaving him in the North?

      They could have just had his injuries so severe he couldn’t walk, or something like that. Would have been pretty emotional to see him try to stand up and follow Jon south.

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    289. The details of plot and world mechanics are certainly of declining significance in these last seasons. The end must be near as I’ve seen the telling sign. Not a red comet but rather a coffee cup.

      Don’t get me wrong I still get value and get enjoyment from the show, but the fate or destiny of the characters are the bread and butter now. The means of learning their destinies will be as predicable and sensical as a lord of light prophecy however.

      Just two episodes left, writers forge your blades. Yes it will kill.

        Quote  Reply

    290. How to decimate the entire series in 2 weeks.

      That’s how I’ll look back upon episodes 803 and 804.

      I sat through 7 and a half seasons of Dany’s arc only for it to be rendered meaningless as she goes Mad Queen in the final 3 episodes. Okey dokey guys.

      I’ll also never be able to get over the fact we never got to see the reaction of Sansa and Arya to learning who Jon is. What the hell kind of nonsense is that?

        Quote  Reply

    291. Had there been no books to go by, ‘The Rains Of Castamere’ would have been universally panned. I’m convinced of it. The fact that this episode is so lowly rated is proof of it, IMO. This amount of hate isn’t because of fans feeling like the Euron ambush didn’t make sense and that they should have been aware of him. Or that Cersei should have just killed Dany outside of the gates. Those are reasonable criticisms. But logistical stuff doesn’t drive the majority of fans nuts.

      The hate is because of the direction of Dany’s character and where it is headed. The book stans refuse to believe this is straight out of George’s mouth to D&D’s ears. It’s amazing.

      And I’m not knocking legitimate criticisms. I’m just claiming that those wouldn’t drive thousands of people to rate it a 1 out of 10. This episode was far better than any episode in season 7, and IMO , the best this season. For it to be regarded as the worst in the show’s history is insane.

      I’ll predict next week will probably be rated lower, because some truly crazy Red Wedding-esque shit is about to go down.

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    292. Sundancer,

      There’s a couple ways to get around that. Sansa could marry someone from a smaller House that agreed to take the Stark name (see also; the original Joffrey Lannister), or have a bastard legitimized by Queen Dany/King Aegon. I suppose the King/Queen could probably pick anyone, and name them a Stark, but the first two options keep the bloodline and House.

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    293. Wow. What an episode!… (though it almost felt like two). I loved it.

      I like it that they took their time with the funeral scene = grief, mourning, respect for the fallen. Sansa placing that direwolf pin on dead Theon’s body had me bawling.

      And who can forget that magnificent, haunting picture: map markers, armies, turned into funeral pyres.

      My second most favourite scene in this episode was the long Great Hall scene.

      It starts quite quiet, respectful, funeral like but gradually turns more and more noisy and cheerful. I loved all the mini-dramas in it. Even in the background. I’m sure many noticed Pod chatting up not one but two serving wenches.

      Dany makes clever political moves, legitimising Gendry and making him Lord of Storm’s End. Toasts Arya Stark, the hero of Winterfell. Sansa observes her. Later Dany (alone at her end of the table except for Varys) observes the goings on. The Lannister brothers and Brienne laughing, drinking, having a grand old time. Jon surrounded by northmen and wildlings, drunk Tormund accidentally calling Jon a king (though he earlier raised a toast to the dragon queen).

      Gotta love drunk Tormund – and I’m sure Kristofer Hivju had a lot of fun with that magnificent drinking horn! Gotta love heartbroken Tormund. The penny drops and he chooses the exact wrong person on whose shoulder to cry on, haha.

      It was such a great scene. We even got Bran showing some emotion about Tyrion’s callback to the saddle he designed back in S1. We got “SanSan” closure, the Hound even giving a chuckle when he heard how Sansa had dealt with Ramsay.

      My absolute favourite scene of this episode, and perhaps all of GoT ever is, of course BRAIME!!!!

      It went down just as I’d imagined. So wonderfully awkward! Neither of them very experienced in flirting or seduction, hahaha!
      Jaime: Phew, it’s hot in here. Let me take off my clothes.
      Brienne: Oh, FFS, let me do it for you!

      I must say “I’ve never slept with a knight” sounds a hell of a lot better than “I’ve never slept with anybody but my sister.”

      I love it how Jaime comes in and tries to be all snarky and light, his usual (outward) persona, but he can’t quite hide his insecurity and jealousy, and Brienne twigs onto that. She knows at that moment that he cares, loves her. From then on, it’s very much Brienne’s choice.

      OK, I had a Braimegasm watching that scene. Brienne besmirched her honour with Jaime. Bliss.

      !!!! PEAK BRAIME !!! PEAK BRAIME !!!

      Because of course it can’t last, no long honeymoons in Winterfell, running hand-in-hand through the… uhm, snowy fields. Even in the “afterwards” scene we see Brienne sleeping, Jaime looking at her, then turning to look at the ceiling, not looking blissfully happy, more like troubled.

      Add the Bronn scene, his assessment Cersei is good as dead. Add later scene when Jaime sees Sansa and Brienne, hears the news about Euron’s attack. Cue next scene. Brienne’s bedroom, then outside.

      Jaime doesn’t look exactly conflicted when staring into the fire, more like thoughtful. Looks over to Brienne sleeping in the furs. Camera pans to her, she wakes up to door closing, sees Jaime’s chair empty.

      Now, the courtyard scene. Jaime trying to act and look all nonchalant, like he doesn’t care, like it doesn’t matter, just saddling his horse. Brienne talks sense, then all but begs Jaime to stay. Stay with her. He’s not like Cersei, he’s a good man.

      afjrvskjvkm the way Jaime looks into Brienne’s eyes. Even nods (gods, NCW was sooo perfect in that moment!). Looks to the side, down… and then launches into his speech about the bad things he’s done – for Cersei. “She is hateful. So am I.” Sobbing, crying Brienne is left in the courtyard while Jaime rides away.

      OK, people’s opinions might vary, but what I take away from that scene was Jaime being deliberately cruel (especially in evoking Cersei all the time) to make sure Brienne does not try to follow him, to a needless death. He was protecting her.

      I don’t know what Jaime’s plan is, what might happen to him. Valonqar? I’ve always thought Cersei would be the death of him, directly or indirectly. He’s on that path now. Backsliding? Hmnn, maybe not to Cersei, but there’s that unborn child. Protect the innocent, all that.

      Talking about the unborn child… Cersei manipulates Euron with her pregnancy, like she did first Jaime and then Tyrion in S7, classic Cersei. But is there even a pregnancy? She’s not showing much, considering Gilly must’ve got pregnant around the same time or later in S7, and she’s pregnant enough for Jon to notice it when gently hugging her.

      Good segway to the Jon leaving the North scene. They piled it on. Tormund using phrases like “home” and “where we belong”. Jon actually saying “A direwolf does not belong in the south, he’d be happier up there”, Tormund “So would you.”

      [Ghost: Fuck this shit. I lost an ear for my human. Now he’s giving me away to his pal because he’s got a newer, cooler pet. I’m outta here.
      D&D: Hooray, we’ve finally got rid of the direwolf budget. Hm. Now, what can we do to the dragon budget…]

      Sorry to have gone on for so long, I got distracted by all the Braime stuff.

      I liked the Hound/Arya scene, even though it seemed a bit fan-servicey and repetitive. Oh, and poor Gendry! 🙁 But never say never, maybe that ship hasn’t quite sunk yet. Speaking of which, what is Arya’s problem with being a “lady”? Is it her childhood resentment of Sansa? The patriarchical society that Westeros is? (In which case she should use her status as a highborn lady to push against narrow gender roles.) Or her traumatised and brainwashed personality? Or – dare I say it – internalised, stereotyped, slightly misogynistic idea of what a “lady” should be? C’mon, Arya! Look at LADY Lyanna Mormont! She was younger than you are, did all you wanted to do as a child. Hm?

      Oh, and waxing all high and mighty and guilt-tripping Jon about family in the Godswood, only to leave them all and apparently not intending to come back the next day. Lone wolf – pack… Are D&D showing, telling us something here?

      Sorry, this post is too long already.

      Missandei and Grey Worm have a happy love moment (never a good thing in GoT) and Tyrion and Varys have a political moment. I’m so glad we’re having the Spider back! Tyrion and Varys aren’t exactly on the same page in the later Dragonstone scene. It was a bit ominous.

      Anyway, the last scene, the parley was so intense! The music! Such suberb acting from all. Cersei raised her hand and looked triumphant… but she couldn’t bring herself to do it, have her brother killed (Book!Cersei would’ve done it in a heartbeat. But I think D&D did well to make her more nuanced than the foolish, stupid cartoon villain she is in the books). Euron side-eyed her a bit for that.

      Also, I was half expecting Tyrion to accidentally spill the beans “… if not for yourself, then for your and Jaime’s baby…” Cue Euron side-eyeing even more! lol!

      Poor Missandei. Her final defiance, her futile “Dracarys!”. But sending a message that will reverberate with Dany. Fire and blood it is.

      The saddest thing is that Missandei died in chains. A life she thought she had escaped, been freed from thanks to Dany. And Evil Queen Cersei puts her right back there and is just as bad as any slaver.

      Oh, and great props to Jacob Anderson’s (Grey Worm) acting when he saw Missandei, his new life, his love, all his hopes and plans so summarily executed by Evil Queen Cersei.

      OK, I don’t care who kills Cersei. Fire and blood dragon Dany, super ninja assassin Arya, valonqars Jaime and Tyrion, anybody! Mad pirate Euron, some prophecied hero, Jon Snow, anybody! Ectopic pregnacy gone wrong, fast advancing liver disease. Anything! Just, please. She’s got to be destroyed.

      Sorry for stupidly long post.

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    294. Sean C.:
      Steel_Wind,

      Jon doesn’t want the throne, as he repeatedly says.Dany is completely correct that if that’s the case he shouldn’t tell anyone — she specifically predicts exactly what Sansa will do, while Jon denies it.

      I disagree. He must tell and let the cards fall where they may. He can not control what people do, and he musn’t try to. If people die because of it then that’s tough. He didn’t give the order to kill anyone, and he wouldn’t want anyone killed. But, nor should he set himself up as a censure. He needs to be honest, and if their are dishonourable people around who will use the information to their own ends and hurt other people by doing so then they should identify themselves by doing so, so people know who they are. It is sad that people would be hurt by it, but as Bran would say, it is those actions that brought us to where we are now. So, put your cards on the table and at least keep yourself clean. The others can fight over the scraps if that is their go.. If Jon is marked to die because of his actions, then I am sure he will be the first to put his neck on the chopping block just as Ned did. This kind of thing is not about self preservation first. This type of thing is about keeping your honour intact and retaining your memory in good standing. If infants were involved then you would lie for them, and in so doing, you would still manage to keep your honour intact. But, lying just for the sake of your own hide? there is no way to keep your honour intact once you start doing that.

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    295. orange,

      Thank you, I said the same thing last night, why did they cut that? It would have made for such a great scene, but the writers just half assed it again.

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    296. orange:
      How to decimate the entire series in 2 weeks.

      That’s how I’ll look back upon episodes 803 and 804.

      I sat through 7 and a half seasons of Dany’s arc only for it to be rendered meaningless as she goes Mad Queen in the final 3 episodes. Okey dokey guys.

      I’ll also never be able to get over the fact we never got to see the reaction of Sansa and Arya to learning who Jon is. What the hell kind of nonsense is that?

      So you didnt pay attention properly and are now mad that the show is not going in the direction you predicted.

      Dany was showing signs of madness in season 2. The last 2 seasons they kept on saying how she needs to be held in check because her impulses are poor.

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    297. OK, now I’ll go and see what the recap actually says, and all the other commenters. I might be some time… 🙂

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    298. Lady MarMar,

      It is Dany who asks Jon for the impossible -to deny his own (superior) birthright in favour of her own self-centred idea of her destiny. Bad wife material…

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    299. Jon Snowed,

      I’ve been wondering if the pregnancy foreshadowing was just misdirection after all. Since there only seems to be a day passing between episodes, there doesn’t seem to be enough time for her to know she’s pregnant, if she is.

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    300. Cameryn,

      Daario was right in assessing that Daenerys was a Conqueror not a Ruler/Queen. A dragon is not slave nor a ruler, a dragon destroys, kills and maintains power by implementing the seed of fear. Daenerys more often than not, especially when she encounters resistance, gives herself to her dragon instincts. She was always commenting on Viserys’ ‘wake the dragon’ threats, she never realized that she too fell into that trap. Look, Daenerys is the perfect example of becoming what you always fear you would become. And she’s always been aware that this is the route that her life could go: If look back, I am lost. Sometimes it pays to look back, only to see where you have gone wrong and avoid the mistake in the future.

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    301. Jack Bauer 24:
      Why would Sansa tell Tyrion about Aegon now? Wouldn’t AeJon/Dany and everyone else being distracted by that revelation put AeJon in danger as he heads to battle with Cersei? Everyone’s focus should be on the battle and now there will be divided focus.

      One point that bothers me is the fact that Tyrion has always been presented as clever, a reader, good memory, and obsessed with Dragons. So how can he have seen Jon ride a dragon and not immediately wondered how he could be doing that without being a Targaryen? (Operating under the premise that D&D have stayed not the books that only Targa can ride a dragon)

      The Tyrion from early seasons would have recognized that and began to unravel how that was possible. But he had to wait for Sansa to tell him and he had no clue. For that matter, I would have thought Varys would have started piecing that together as well.

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    302. BeardedOnion,
      Your comments are spot on with your usual stance, narrowed to mainly two characters with predictable words. You focus on everything Sansa does is accurate and proper and everything Daenerys does is evil without basis and then bitching about people pointing out any flaws in Sansa’s actions. Plenty of people do the same against Daenerys but you’re just fine with that huh. I think many to most are seeing how they’re both doing things in a rather poor manner that includes anything from anger, jealousy, personal desire, etc.

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    303. orange,

      I sat through 7 and a half seasons of Dany’s arc only for it to be rendered meaningless as she goes Mad Queen in the final 3 episodes. Okey dokey guys.

      Dany’s arc has had hints of Mad Queen since the first season. Since the very first episode she has always been shown as someone who has always lived surrounded by only a handful of people, and her attitude has always been shaped by those closest to her. However, when left to her own impulses she has always been someone who has no problem threatening with destruction anyone who will not get her what she wants or do as she says, innocents be damned.

      It just happened that since she came into power she always had people to temper those worst impulses and to her credit she usually listened. However, one by one she has been losing those better angels in her shoulder, which is why now she seems on the brink of going full Mad Queen.

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    304. Joey:
      This season has been such a disaster, I don’t even know where to start. Normally I wouldn’t really care, but this show was so good through six seasons (contrary to others, season 6 was my favorite) I cannot believe how much the showrunners quit on it. Ever since D&D were announced to run that Star Wars show, it’s like their time was divided and they basically handed over the reigns to an intern. That’s what it looks like on the screen.

      They’ve basically ignored every prophecy, clue, backstory, etc. Jon has been utterly useless this season, Sansa is still whining since the middle of season 6, Dany’s huge army was dismissed entirely, Tyrion and Varys are basically statues, Bran has done absolutely nothing, it’s a complete mess. To top it all, the characters that do have screen time this season are the ones I never liked in the first place – Cersei and Euron. It’s like they met before the season and said whatever the audience wants to see most, let’s do the opposite of that. With the story they are giving us now, they easily could have made season 7 10 episodes and fit this season into the last 3.

      Joey, I think you have missed something 🙂 this is the best season by far. This is a terrific season. They could have made this season 40 episodes long and I would remain enthralled with it all the way through. 😀

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    305. I don’t know why anyone thinks Jaime has gone back to Cersei out of loyalty or love or whatever. I never once thought that – it’s clear his intention is to go back to KL to kill her. He is repulsed by himself and all of the things he did for love of her and wants to end it. He knows he doesn’t deserve Brienne and that is why he left her to try and make amends for his part in enabling Cersei to become what she has.

      Jon not saying a proper goodbye to Ghost was bullshit!!!

      I picked up on the after the episode recap with D&D, they said so many times people have underestimated Dany and she’s always come up with something amazing that nobody expected. I think they have set it up to look like Dany is going mad and doesn’t have much of a shot against Cersei, but we will have to wait and see… some of Dany’s most amazing moments have come from her grief and when people have underestimated her. I think she might surprise us all next week.

      I don’t think it’s Sansa’s plan to put a target on Jon by giving away his secret, I think she genuinely can’t stand Dany and doesn’t want her to be queen – she wants people to know about Jon in the hopes that they will take up for him instead of Dany because she knows Jon won’t put himself forward.

      I did find it very puzzling that after Euron’s ships just took out a dragon and decimated Dany’s ships, they didn’t finish them off. Just allowed them to swim to the shore and recuperate while they sail back to KL… ok…

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    306. Direcat,

      That confused me too. If anything shouts TARGARYEN! it is riding a dragon. (R.I.P. Rhaegal) Why didn’t Varys and Tyrion start piecing it together?

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    307. Elizabeth,

      Bran is a warg and a greenseer, like Jojen, hence he has prophetic dreams. He can see glimpses of the future. Remember his dream of the sea washing onto Winterfell (Ironborn).

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    308. There was just something not right about the Missandei execution scene. Particularly Tyrion’s speech, the whole set up and the way it was shot. I am smelling a twist with that.

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    309. Down with my ships
      I think part of this is the whiplash of a shortened story line, because things that have been building (including ships) for years in the show and longer in the books are coming to fruition and being set aside for the next thing too fast for us to process on first viewing.

      Jon-He is introduced as being one of the most important characters in the beginning, and his identity is the undercurrent of so many story lines. The Bastard. Cat’s treatment of him which guided Sansa’s treatment of him. Ned’s pained silence at his treatment to keep his secret safe. Benjen’s conversations with him and attempt to dissuade him from NW (because Benjen knew). R+L=J stands between Ned and Robert for most of their adult lives. And in the show, the only visions Bran are shown with the exception of NK is of Jon’s parents and his birth at the Tower of Joy.

      Now we’ve had the reveal and we don’t see his sister’s reactions and it feels like it’s just being used as a wedge between him and Dany. Worse, it makes her look bad.
      I can understand Dany being upset that Tyrion and Jaime are huddled and that people are praising Jon riding a dragon when she does it all the time, she saved his ass and lost Jorah in the process. (PS I can also understand why she’d be upset because every time she tries to help or listens to her advisors she loses someone. Jorah and Missandei and Rhaegal…those were her last straws)

      I can’t understand why Dany would say she loved Jon more than Jorah, then take something so profound for Jon–discovering who his mother was, that he isn’t a bastard, that Ned suffered to protect him, that he mattered–and ordering him to keep it his dirty little secret, despite his stated and proven loyalty to her and her awareness of his character and connection to family. She didn’t even suggest they marry. She didn’t even say, this must be hard for you, or I know you’re a Stark and a Targaryen, or I thought I was alone in the world. Just throne stuff.
      (I do feel a little bad for her because he’s clearly not the kind of guy who can get over the “you’re my aunt” thing, so she’s losing him emotionally as well as thinking of him as a threat)

      And btw Sansa did put him in danger by telling Tyrion. Because Dany has a dragon and Jon is not fireproof, and Cersei would focus on him more than she is right now. Hopefully Arya will watch his back while she’s on her new mission.

      Basically Jon’s two very important story lines that made his character so pivotal have been either abruptly ended or are being used by others in a way that is not conducive to Jon having a satisfying…anything. I hope I’m wrong, but when he left everyone who was loyal to him-apart from Davos-behind in Winterfell, it didn’t bode well.

      I’m still hoping for Gendry and Arya. Sandor even gave his grumpy blessing. Sure, he jumped the gun a bit, but everyone was drinking and he’d just gotten a name, so maybe he can rethink things a little. Baratheons are stubborn as well as dark of hair.

      Jaime and Brienne has been my one true ship in books and show from the start. They faced death together, more than once. And I’ve said this before, she knows him better than Cersei does and loves him. She knows where he’s going before he tells her, but I do think it was a misdirect (her sobbing broke my heart).

      Granted, book Jaime left Cersei long before show Jaime did. And I was so surprised he stayed after she used the wildfire, because it went against even his show character, so I’m not 100% sure what he’ll do now. But regardless, I think he finally sees what he never let himself see before about himself and the things he’s done. And that’s because he experienced what he did with Brienne (which was more than one night stand btw, since they were in bed twice-which with the fast time frame currently in place implies weeks or months) Sometimes to know how wrong something is, you have to experience something right. He was finally fighting on the right side, for something truly worthwhile. And he finally got to experience pure, honest unconditional love.

      I really really hope he ends Cersei and comes back to my girl. More than Sam and Gilly have to have a happy-ish ending with a potential future, or else it’s just a tragedy, and people are using the word bittersweet incorrectly.

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    310. Sundancer,
      Grayven Reyne,

      Also, it could become a matrilineal House as House Mormont had become (both in the books and show). There is no reason why Sansa could not carry on the Stark name in her own right, other than House Stark being traditionally patrilineal.

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    311. Liked lots of things about this episode –
      Jon’s speech, the strength and emotion in his voice were spot on.
      Dani’s feeling of isolation at the dinner. Her “I just told you how,” to Jon later on was whoah! very mad queenish!
      The tension in the ‘war’ room between Dani and Sansa!

      What I did not like: Jaime and Brienne. It was clunky, brusque and unromantic. Also, Bronn’s scene, it made no sense. “I’ll shoot you with this bow, if I don’t get a castle!” A ridiculous threat.

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    312. Joey,

      To top it all, the characters that do have screen time this season are the ones I never liked in the first place – Cersei and Euron.

      You may want to reconsider the logic of your whinging if you think this, considering that Cersei and Euron have had about 5 minutes of screen time out of about 4 – 5 hrs of show so far.

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    313. orange:
      I sat through 7 and a half seasons of Dany’s arc only for it to be rendered meaningless as she goes Mad Queen in the final 3 episodes. Okey dokey guys.

      This is the same trouble I’m having with the show. Let’s take the best possible option to become ruler, the most powerful female character on the show, the one who wanted to ‘break the wheel’ and protect humanity from itself, and sacrifice her because she can’t control her temper or is somehow descending into “madness”.

      If that is the direction they’re going with Dany, then I’ll consider the last eight seasons to have been a waste of time.

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    314. Didn’t need to see Sansa and Arya facial reactions, not necessary. Only what they do with the info is important.

      Is Tyrion foolish enough to not know that Sansa is playing him with the info?

      Tyrion not becomin