Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 “The Last of the Starks” Written Recap Round-Up

Daenerys Targaryen Funeral Jorah Mormont Season 8 804

The Last of the Starks’ appears to be amongst the most contentious episodes in recent memory. Some people have claimed it’s the greatest episode ever, while others seem to say it’s the worst episode ever. Then there are some (me) who think it’s the most 2 episodes ever. But don’t let me be the one to tell you this. Let’s gather up some critics’ thoughts and see what’s going on over in Westeros.

Every week, I’ll be deconstructing the multitude of reviews out there, boiling them down to one short summary sentence that will perfectly encapsulate what the original author was saying, no questions asked…and by that I mean that I will deconstruct whole essays down to one sentence apiece. What I will do is attempt to summarize the original review as best I can, and if my tease whets your appetite for their style of review, you are encouraged to head over to their site and let them know…after of course letting us know your thoughts in the comments below. All squared? Jolly good, let’s dive in.

Here at Watchers on the Wall, we encourage you to ‘Always Support the Bottom.’ This typically extends to your support of our editor-in-chief Sue the Fury, in which her background knowledge of the books informs her perspective on the episode for her recap…but I ended up writing this week’s recap, so please go check it out when you get a chance! Never fear – Sue will be back next week. Once you’ve done that, you would do well to support our peerless Oz of Thrones’s ‘Unsullied recap,’ in which his fearless determination to avoid reading the books has outlasted all others, continuing on for 8 full seasons. After this, you can check out what these Internet critics thought of ‘The Last of the Starks:

Alan Sepinwall, Rolling Stone – In which he does a deep dive into the Varys/Tyrion scene and what does not work for him.

Alyssa Rosenberg, The Washington Post – In which in the moment, she is delighted to see all of these characters loose and wonderfully, vitally alive — and very much aware of it.

Caitlin PenzeyMoog, The A.V. Club – In which she dubs it a transitional episode that feels perfunctory, a cursory going through the motions of wrapping up the Battle of Winterfell, and the lining up of somewhat boring logistics to get into the Last War.

Danette Chavez, The A.V. Club – In which he feels like the episode contains another example of Thrones’ long history of underdeveloping female characters or using sexist tropes as shorthand.

Daniel D’Addario, Variety – In which he thinks the episode was proof of GOT’s ability to toggle between plotlines and tones elegantly even as the story winnows down to a few key characters.

Dave Gonzales, Thrillist – In which he argues that Cersei is the best player in the game.

David Malitz, The Washington Post – In which he laments the lack of celebration for Arya’s great victory over the Night King.

Hillary Kelly, Vulture – In which she admits delight over the unexpected nature of Rhaegal’s demise.

James Hibberd, Entertainment Weekly – In which he wishes Missandei and Cersei would have had a scene together before the big moment.

Jeremy Egner, New York Times – In which he was not amongst those clamoring for Jaime to end up with Brienne, as he believed their mutual admiration was far more interesting when it was without sex.

Joanna Robinson, Vanity Fair – In which she writes up multiple articles covering different areas of the episode.

Josh Wigler, Hollywood Reporter – In which he recaps from an objective standpoint, neglecting to inject his subjective opinions.

Julia Alexander, The Verge – In which she thinks the feast scenes in the beginning played out like fan fiction and what goes down in the episode was bizarre.

Kathryn VanArendonk, Vulture – In which she believes the show has fundamentally betrayed Brienne, Sansa, and Missandei.

Kelly Lawler, USA Today – In which the clumsy and overlong episode tried to do far too much with far too little.

Kim Renfro – Business Insider – In which she goes into detail on details you caught and details you missed.

Laura Hudson, WIRED – In which Game of Thrones doesn’t need to be kind or crowd-pleasing, but that it has to feel earned, and it is no longer earning its shit anymore.

Laura Stone, Hey Don’t Judge Me – In which the Hound and Arya are her favorite Buddy Cop duo since Pod and Brienne.

Lauren Sarner, New York Post – In which Sansa is on a path to be the one to take down Cersei.

Lindsey Romain, Nerdist – In which Sansa did the right thing in telling Tyrion about Jon’s heritage.

Mark Perigard, Boston Herald – In which he feels cheated by our lack of witnessing Sansa’s and Arya’s reaction to the Aegon reveal.

Melanie McFarland, Salon – In which she decides the saving grace is David Nutter’s skillful direction, which makes sense out of an episode that begins soundly enough but iss soon shot to pieces in a barrage of bad decisions.

Michael Schick, Hypable – In which the women of Game of Thrones are the points around which the action and drama revolve, like markers on a map, directing the story — and the men — through its sometimes moving, sometimes maddening motions.

Michael Rogeau, Gamespot – In which he went into the episode figuring his bar was so low that there was no way it could be that bad.

Mike Bloom, Parade – In which the aftermath of the Battle of Winterfell, and the ambush at King’s Landing is reported in the Westeros World News.

Neela Debnath, Express – In which the Machiavellian scheming of Game of Thrones is just as much of a draw to the series as the Hollywood-style production values, incredible characters and epic storylines with twists no one saw coming.

Rob Bricken, io9 – In which he believes the conversation between Tyrion and Varys is one of the best conversations in recent GOT memory.

Ron Hogan, Den of Geek – In which during the showdown sequence, Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage do more with just their facial expressions than most actors could accomplish with pages of speech.

Sarah Hughes, The Guardian – In which this is an epic episode in the true sense of the word: raw with emotion and high on intrigue, filled with a sense of impending doom and featuring a final scene that was both heartbreaking and inevitable.

Sean T. Collins, Rolling Stone – In which he delivers a resounding set of praise, saying the show hasn’t missed a step thematically, moving from humanity’s need to stop killing itself and face a common threat to its compulsion to annihilation even after seeing what it can accomplish as a united front.

Soumya Srivastava, Hindustan Times – In which the episode takes a turn for the boring and the dull.

Tim Surette, TV Guide – In which he is unsure of whether he is supposed to love or hate the episode, even though he liked it, except for when he didn’t.

Todd VanDerWerff, Vox – In which he looks at the four winners and six losers of the episode.

Tori Preston, Pajiba – In which she thinks it is a long, frustrating episode that seems designed to grind everything you enjoy about the show straight into the dirt.

Verne Gay, Newsday – In which this is an episode somehow better and even richer than the brilliant ‘The Long Night.

Thanks for joining this week. Whose reviews did you love/hate, with all due respect of course, and as always?

252 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Thank you so much for the roundup, David.

      I’m still digesting. It’s been a helluva day. Maybe I’ll start with Rolling Stone and see if I can make myself feel better.

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    2. I just watched this episode. Her eis my written review.

      My response to this episode
      VARYS CAn SUCK A BAG OF DICKS
      Jaime is a LIAR!!!!!
      This is all Tyrion’s fault
      (i just watched it)
      But seriously, Tyrion you should feel VERY BAD about Missandei because if you hadn’t fucked up everything last season, Cersei would already be dead
      UGH

      ….

      Finally, I love this show. I just have feelings about it. Which is a good thing. right?

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    3. There was no way the series could be wrapped up in 6 episodes with all the character arcs involved. D&D have done their best but its clear they are speeding towards the end. Im not sure how this can all be neatly ties into a bow in 160 minutes.

      Perhaps yes, they are covering the broad strokes and eliminating filler exposition but that is what is driving people nuts is they are speeding through different scenarios often times leaving out how things happened or forgetting about characters in the process.

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    4. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface:
      There was no way the series could be wrapped up in 6 episodes with all the character arcs involved. D&D have done their best but its clear they are speeding towards the end. Im not sure how this can all be neatly ties into a bow in 160 minutes.

      Perhaps yes, they are covering the broad strokes and illuminating filler exposition but that is what is driving people nuts is they are speeding through different scenarios often times leaving out how things happened or forgetting about characters in the process.

      Endings always have to go at a faster speed or they fail miserably.

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    5. Seriously though I always HATED Varys in the books for jumping from ruler to ruler, no matter the cost in lives or treasure. I’m sorry but you can’t claim to be “for the realm” or “for the people” when your actions have literally caused a neverending war for the last 30 years and literally millions of lives. F YOUUUUU

      (i’m secretly pleased that this Varys I hated from the books has resurfaced. So I’m angry but also happy. This makes sense right? Right???)

      Also did anyone catch that Jaim eliterally said the same thing to Brienne as he said to Edmure. ITS A F-ING LIE BOTH TIMES.

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    6. Sure there have been flaws but I can’t understand the barrage of criticism towards season eight. Is it any worse than seasons five, six or seven? Want to criticise something then try elements of season five (Dorne, no Davos at Hardhome, no siege of Meereen) or the crap that now constitutes the Star Wars film series.
      D&D were always struggling after they ran out of book material, their writing never had the crafted dialogue or political machinations of the books. Perhaps GRR Martin should have played a greater role in assisting the series.

      I don’t think any television programme currently or in my memory has matched GOT, I look at the current glut of television series and not one of them has come close to GOT. Soon it will be gone and frankly I don’t feel particularly drawn to the prequels, so from someone who has had issues with the series at times – it deserved perfection, the criticism feels undeserved.

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    7. NICOLAI COSTAR WALDAU IS THE BIGGEST TROLL WHO HAS EVER LIVED aND GweNDOLINE CHRISTIE IS #2

      “YES THEY HAVE FEELINGS BUT THEY COULD NEVER ACT ON IT – Too Stoic amirite?”

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    8. QueenofThrones:
      Seriously though I always HATED Varys in the books for jumping from ruler to ruler, no matter the cost in lives or treasure.I’m sorry but you can’t claim to be “for the realm” or “for the people” when your actions have literally caused a neverending war for the last 30 years and literally millions of lives.F YOUUUUU

      (i’m secretly pleased that this Varys I hated from the books has resurfaced.So I’m angry but also happy.This makes sense right?Right???)

      Also did anyone catch that Jaim eliterally said the same thing to Brienne as he said to Edmure.ITS A F-ING LIE BOTH TIMES.

      His speech about illusions of grandiose ( for Dany) made me think .. but dude .. you thinking that you can make a ruler or break them is just as grandiose and serving the realm? Really? He could have done that by releasing Ned ? Why didn’t he choose him? Why choose Tyrion ? Killing certain people will bring my reign which is good ( is Dany’s line) Betraying my current ruler and getting in a new ruler will bring a good reign is another dellusion and you know thinking of his own greatness !

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    9. 2 episodes left but feature lengths should be quite satisfying.

      My take is that there’s no way they didn’t mention the prince of dorne for no reason, I think Dorne will join the fight because of Aegon/Jon to take the capital probably deus ex machina style, Varys has this information to spread the word that s true heir to the iron throne and a war hero as he added to band together to overthrow the tyrant.

      I am probably wrong about all this too lmao

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    10. QueenofThrones,

      Dany’s gonna roast him anyway. Then you can hate Tyrion when that drives him over the edge.

      Seriously, though, Varys was never team Dany, IMO. The show tried to shoehorn him into being all about her when they cut out the Faegon plot. Even in the books I thought his idea of what would make a good ruler fit Jon more than the Blackfyre pretender he was grooming. Maybe this is a way of circling back around to his book counterpart? Either way, his fate has already been foreshadowed in season 7.

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    11. OT, but I hear that the Starbuck’s cameo cup has gotten so much free press that Boeing is offering D&B $3 billion to show a 737 crashing landing into King’s Landing International Airport in next week’s episode.

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    12. BranStark: His speech about illusions of grandiose ( for Dany) made me think .. but dude .. you thinking that you can make a ruler or break them is just as grandiose and serving the realm? Really? He could have done that by releasing Ned ? Why didn’t he choose him? Why choose Tyrion ? Killing certain people will bring my reign which is good ( is Dany’s line) Betraying my current ruler and getting in a new ruler will bring a good reign is another dellusion and you know thinking of his own greatness !

      aCCURACY!!!!!

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    13. I’m totally fine with Varys dying. He was warned out loud by Dany. After being the one to start persuading Tyrion to follow her, he decides to switch teams…again. Ugh, he’s gotten as screwed as Littlefinger, just have him hanging around doing nothing for a few episodes and then ooh drama!

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    14. QueenofThrones,

      In total agreement, and I feel much the same about Varys — though for such a smart cat (and one of my two fave characters in the show and the books, the other being Tyrion), I don’t think he’s so smart bucking the Mother of Dragons. Whatever happens, it should be interesting. My guess is the little birds will come into play, but my prediction success rate over the last eight years is currently at .0000000001, and that was only because I bet that Theon and Sansa would survive that jump, which was an easy call. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    15. BTw.

      why can’t these characters have discussions in private.

      because it would seriously help

      last time we saw it was tyrion + dany last season

      sansa is really bad at it.

      don’t get me wrong i love sansa.

      but come on.

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    16. Catspaw Assassin: my prediction success rate over the last eight years is currently at .0000000001,

      yes im having some problems at the moment as well although #braime aint one.

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    17. What does this have to do with the TV series GoT? A reader might ask, and not wrongly so, this very question. Maybe something, maybe nothing, but I’m posting it anyway, because that’s just me. I may even post this link here again sometime, and that’s just me too.
      For your amusement, edification and general interest. A fourteen page essay on the nature of Fantasy writing from the mind of Ursula LeGuin, 1973.
      https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzA5KaXxLuv6YjI2M2M1ZTMtOTYwZS00MjNiLTgzNWUtMGUyYWZmOTJkOTUy/view?hl=en&authkey=CIfm6_MP

      Cheers!

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    18. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      QueenofThrones,

      Just wait until next week. They’ve been warning us.

      i don’t think my heart can take it. i’ve cried 3 times from this episode alone.

      WHICH isa bitodd because i know a lot of others cried for Brienne getting knighted, or Jorah, or Theon.

      But no. For me, this episode.

      Because it’s almost what we wanted.

      But then reality.

      Complication.

      humanity.

      UGHHHH

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    19. I don’t get how last years “Beyond The Wall” Episode has a 9.2 rating on IMDB despite all of its flaws. The fact that episode got such a high rating shows just how much the fanbase has changed. Those who are highly critical of the show writers of course hated that episode and loved to pick apart all of its flaws but that wasn’t the opinion of the general fanbase.

      There have always been the D&D haters but it seems a shift occurred after “The Long Night” episode. In the days following that episode those haters became the dominate voice in the fandom. All over youtube and various other social media areas were top comments hating the writers and claiming the show is ruined. Many people will find entertainment in nerd raging and trying to present themselves as smarter than Hollywood writers and I believe the prevalence of these comments after that episode cause many more to jump on board the hate the show and writers bandwagon.

      This also explains why The Long Night episode has seen such a drop in its IMDB ratings. It was actually rated good after it aired but as the negative voices grew louder in the days following its airing the rating collapsed. No episode has ever experience such a fall from its original rating like The Long Night. Twitter is another example. After The Long Night aired twitter reaction was very positive(other than darkness issue) but now after this weeks episode there is noticeably a lot more hostility to the show and writers. It clear to me that the D&D haters rise to dominance among the voices in the fandom after “The Long Night” caused many to also shift their view of the show.

      To put it more simply, there is no way hell if an episode like “Beyond The Wall” were to air today it would be getting a 9.2.

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    20. Wolfish:
      Thank you so much for the roundup, David.

      I’m still digesting. It’s been a helluva day. Maybe I’ll start with Rolling Stone and see if I can make myself feel better.

      A man serves.

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    21. If they were going to this route, perhaps they should have made season 7 the normal 10, and had episodes 8, 9, 10 be what 801, 802, 803 were. Then this season start on what 804 was and work your way from there into 6 episodes. Less rushed, more time to tell whatever this endgame story is about to be, and if Dany is going to suddenly morph into something brand new at the last moment, have an entire final season to build it. I think the complaints (some of them justified in my opinion) would not have been as bad or as loud.

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    22. BranStark,

      Based on your apt description of Varys acting like a self-entitled Kingmaker and other characters’ actions, they could have titled Episode 4 “Oathbreakers”

      Varys: Preparing to forswear the queen he swore to serve.

      Sansa: Swears to keep a family secret; blurts it out to a blabbermouth ten minutes later.

      Jaime: “I’m an honorable man now; you can trust me.” A few episodes later: “I’m a hateful man, and I’m abandoning you.”

      Jon/Ghost: S1e1: “This one’s yours, Snow.”
      S8e4: “F*ck off Ghost.”

      Sam: “I’d like a pardon for stealing all of these Citadel books that were supposed to be so important to defeating the WWs…..
      …. Forget it. I never even used them. I’m splitting. My girl’s knocked up.”
      Arya S7e2: “I’m heading north girl. Back to Winterfell. I’m finally going home.”
      Arya S8e4: “On second thought, I don’t want to be back in Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”

      I know I missed some….

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    23. Catspaw Assassin,

      Varys doesn’t make sense to me. Remember it was Varys who Jaime said was the only one trying to protect the mad king at the end. Telling him not to open the gate to the Lannisters. Pycelle convinced him to let Tywin in, which lost him the throne.
      Varys had been planning with Illyrio for Viserys or Dany to take back the throne. Varys even freed Tyrion to bring him to Dany, believing he’d been hurt so much by his family he wouldn’t be loyal to them anymore.

      It’s Tyrion I worry about
      With all the people riding him about supporting Dany-
      Jaime “Are you sure about her?”
      Sansa “Why her? What if there’s someone better?”
      Varys “There’s totally someone better” might be testing Tyrion’s loyalty to Dany by simply telling a few truths. Jon is a Stark and a Targ, more balanced in leadership style, he’s the male heir and the North likes him etc.
      Tyrion has always genuinely liked Jon but he’s sticking atm. “I believe in her. She’ll make the right choice.”
      But he doesn’t sound that confident anymore and he’s drinking a lot lately so…
      I’m just saying if I were going to pick the guy who might fall off the Dany bandwagon, it might be the one with the evil “pregnant” sister on the throne he can’t seem to quit giving chances to instead of the one who whispered in the Mad King’s ear, all the while swearing it was for the realm.
      Of course I’ve been really wrong before. Especially recently lol

      P.S. Another person acting out of character? Bronn. I guess he’s just tired of being put in the middle of the Lannister drama, but that’s years of relationship building to just toss out the window. Maybe him not killing them is how he says I love you? 🙂

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    24. It seems that Arya rules the character arc competition, according to many reviewers. I’ll agree with that and relish what’s to come for her. There are so many fun faces in KL. Yay! The Catspaw and Needle will be busy.

      Regarding Dany’s progression, I enjoyed Sara Hughes (The Guardian) take on it: In many ways (though it has not always been well-told) Dany’s journey is the most interesting. This is a drama fascinated by the puncturing of myths, those gaps between the hero stories portray and the bitter reality – and the flip-side of the all-conquering, chain-breaking mother of dragons is an increasingly lost figure, out of her depth in a country she has never known, lashing out first and thinking later.

      Her descent into madness is perfectly acceptable for me. She has seen so many devotees perish around her (Dothraki, Unsullied, Missandei, Jorah, Viserion, Rhaegal,…), I can’t see a hopeful outcome for her. Unfortunately, I believe she will take many others, including Jon, with her into that good/long night.

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    25. orange,

      I don’t believe you will find many that would argue the shortened seasons were a good thing. I’d say I would trade big battle episodes that took nearly 4 months to film for more total episodes with more focus on the characters.

      It’s easy to claim the show took a noticeable downturn once they ran out of books to adapt, yet season 6 was a critical success that featured arguably the two highest rated episodes of the series. It wasn’t until they shortened the seasons that it started to feel like a different show, IMO.

      I guess it could have been worse. D&D said they originally planned for season 7 to be the last. So we got 3 more episodes at least.

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    26. Ten Bears:
      BranStark,

      Based on your apt description of Varys acting like a self-entitled Kingmaker and other characters’ actions, they could have titled Episode 4 “Oathbreakers”

      Varys: Preparing to forswear the queen he swore to serve.

      Sansa: Swears to keep a family secret; blurts it out to a blabbermouth ten minutes later.

      Jaime: “I’m an honorable man now; you can trust me.” A fewepisodes later: “I’m a hateful man, and I’m abandoning you.”

      Jon/Ghost: S1e1: “This one’s yours, Snow.”S8e4: “F*ck off Ghost.”

      Sam: “I’d like a pardon for stealing all of these Citadel books that were supposed to be so important to defeating the WWs…..…. Forget it. I never even used them.I’m splitting. My girl’s knocked up.” Arya S7e2: “I’m heading north girl. Back to Winterfell. I’m finally going home.”Arya S8e4: “On second thought, I don’t want to be back in Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”

      I know I missed some….

      All of this!
      But especially Sam and those darn books. What the heck? I’m still holding out hope there’s something about the God’s Eye and restoring weather patterns or something lol-just so the magical story gets a little more closure after all that suffering and loss. Not over Hodor.

      I’m still hoping Jaime is staying on his redemption path, so that might have been a decision to keep Brienne from following him.

      As far as Arya, I’m thinking now that she must have been given an off screen mission. I hope so. Because saying “We’re the only Starks left we have to stick together” and five minutes later on her way out the door saying “I’m never coming back to Winterfell either” gave me just a touch of whiplash.

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    27. RG: I’m still hoping Jaime is staying on his redemption path, so that might have been a decision to keep Brienne from following him.

      I doubt it. KL and Cersei is his destiny. Brienne was his fantasy. (Maybe I’m too harsh because I did not like Brienne’s blubbery reaction)

      Bran to Jaime: “How do you know there is an afterwards?”

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    28. Hodors Bastard,

      It works for me too. I find myself feeling more sympathy for Dany than I ever would have expected. Not that I ever hated the character. She just never was one of my favorites. I was always partial to the Starks and Lannisters. But truly, her arc has become the one I’m most fascinated by. I think there still may be a twist left surrounding her character. Something that could alter her in a way that she could avoid falling too far down the path of paranoia and full blown madness.

      I don’t know. I’m just trying to think of a way the series could end with some sweetness. If both Dany and Jon die, that’s going to be tough to accomplish. I think it’s probably easier if just Jon dies, and that’s hard for me to say. For the show, I don’t believe Dany dying and Jon surviving and being king would work well. If Jon somehow survives, I believe Dany will too. But who am I kidding? Of course Jon will die.

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    29. can i just say

      that the Brienne / Jaime relationship has now graduated from a prolonged unresolved sexual tensiontr. (UST) stage to the plot-driven ANGST stage and i am still here for it.

      Jaime you are the worst and stupidest liar ever and if you survive y=u will be punished by mistress B and you will love it.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Hodors Bastard,

      To be fair, Brienne has been through a lot, and she’s one of the strongest fighters with the biggest heart on the show. They’d been building a relationship of trust and friendship and yes, love for 7 years before he came to Winterfell, fought by her side, knighted her and sought her out, even following her to her room where he clearly stayed for weeks on end and even Tyrion noticed Jaime was happy.
      Now he’s going back to a toxic relationship with a 99.9% chance of dying, either by Cersei’s hand, Euron’s hand or dragon fire.
      If you can’t cry then, I don’t know when it’s okay to.

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    31. Wow, its so astounding that 100% of comments here are praising the show or apologist of the show. I don’t know if my comment will be even approved; all of my negative comments about the episode 3 have not been shown. Seriously, if you are unable to see the huge problems of the last two episodes and the betrayal they done to the overall story of Song of Ice and Fire, then you are totally incapable of critical thinking or you are a new “fan” who only came to GoT for the cool battle scenes.
      Anyone who has a modicum of brain can understand that the books, and the shows for a while, was about how petty squabbling among humans is making them oblivious and vulnerable to the real threat of magic and death; the real enemy has always been the White Walkers. And you are really petty enough to label the people who has enough brain to notice that as haters when they get angry that their favorite show has betrayed itself.
      Try to process this to understand your brain capacity: If a ship (camouflaged) can see a flying dragon, how can that same dragon and its rider not see that ship from the air. The writers have no brains, and its clear from this; it was just played for a cheap shock.

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    32. Wow, I’m surprised at all the Varys hate here. What he said about a person who’s not really interested in the throne being the optimal choice for a ruler was the truest, most sensible thing I’ve heard anybody say on the show in ages. He’s the only one getting down to the real nitty-gritty.

      Tyrion, on the other hand, with his absurd faith in Dany, even while he watches her show one sign after another of a tyrannical default approach to exercising power…I am seriously losing all hope that we will ever see Tyrion’s famous intelligence ever again. I hate what the show has been doing to his character, turning him into a clown.

        Quote  Reply

    33. RG:
      Hodors Bastard,

      To be fair, Brienne has been through a lot, and she’s one of the strongest fighters with the biggest heart on the show. They’d been building a relationship of trust and friendship and yes, love for 7 years before he came to Winterfell, fought by her side, knighted her and sought her out, even following her to her room where he clearly stayed for weeks on end and even Tyrion noticed Jaime was happy.
      Now he’s going back to a toxic relationship with a 99.9% chance of dying, either by Cersei’s hand, Euron’s hand or dragon fire.
      If you can’t cry then, I don’t know when it’s okay to.

      *clapclapclapclapclapclapclap*

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    34. Tyrion Pimpslap: I think there still may be a twist left surrounding her character. Something that could alter her in a way that she could avoid falling too far down the path of paranoia and full blown madness.

      Honestly, I don’t know either. Jon’s Ice tale and Dany’s Fire tale are incredible journeys, but as the climax approaches, Jon’s allure has increased while Dany’s has decreased. As they have merged, Jon has become Ice and Fire while Dany remains Fire. Perhaps there is a fun twist regarding their ying and yang ahead (are Bran/3ER and the weirwoods listening?) but I believe a warped Romeo and Juliet scenario lies ahead for them. Will Sam’s “A Song of Ice and Fire” addition to the Citadel’s shelves be written as a magnum opus memoriam?

      For some reason, I see a crazy standoff near a destroyed/melted iron throne between Cersei, Dany and Jon (with some supporting characters lurking around) at some point very soon.

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    35. Rizwan,

      Sorry, but you’re just wrong. You believe you are more privy to how GRRM planned to end his series than D&D? You think he was lying when he said he admired ‘The Scouring Of The Shire’ in LOTR and always brings that up as an example of how he wanted to end his series? The dark lord Sauron was defeated, but Saruman was still left to cause trouble for the Hobbits. Sound familiar?

      This quote may interest you as well: [quote]“The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.”[/quote]

      Does that sound like someone who planned on the war against the Others and the fight for humanity to be the final battle of his series?

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    36. RG: To be fair, Brienne has been through a lot, and she’s one of the strongest fighters with the biggest heart on the show.

      Perhaps I am biased from Brienne’s Dante-esque journey through hell in AFFC, but I simply didn’t agree with her reaction. The show treats her very different indeed. As I said, I’m probably too harsh, but I believe she would be fighting back tears in that moment instead of the rainstorm we got. She knows his curse and his many atrocities…one does not simply walk away from that and embark on redemptive fantasy, imho.

      I actually thought the scene was going well until the rainstorm. Wouldn’t she feel slightly betrayed and used?

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    37. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Rizwan,

      Sorry, but you’re just wrong. You believe you are more privy to how GRRM planned to end his series than D&D? You think he was lying when he said he admired ‘The Scouring Of The Shire’ in LOTR and always brings that up as an example of how he wanted to end his series? The dark lord Sauron was defeated, but Saruman was still left to cause trouble for the Hobbits. Sound familiar?

      This quote may interest you as well: [quote]“The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.”[/quote]

      Does that sound like someone who planned on the war against the Others and the fight for humanity to be the final battle of his series?

      Yep, I agree. I read the first book when it came out in 1996 and I’ve read the books many times. Yes, you CAN enjoy both the books and series, people.

      Episode 1 was a bit meh for me, and episode 3 merely good (I think Battle of the Bastards is a better episode) but episode 2 and 4 are easily in the top 15 episodes of the entire series.

      This is why George will never finish the series; not only is he tangled up with a lot of extra plots that never made the show, but he really can’t win with his ending. All fandom is Toxic in the Internet Era. People build up expectations of how plots will go for years and then they get upset when the story veers in a different way.

      Ironically D&D are being accused of “fanfiction” and being “populist”…if they really were doing that, this Jaime returning to Cersei, Killing the “Big Bad” midseason, Euron killing a Dragon, and Dany as Mad Queen business wouldn’t be seeing the light of day; they just had to know this wouldn’t be universally acclaimed, but rather “controversial” and “divisive”. It all sounds like stuff George would do for the ending…because George told them.

      Of course it’ll be a bit different in the books…For one thing, Cersei in the show has absorbed a lot of the Fake Aegon Plot in the books in regards to the Endgame, for example (I’ll be him sitting in the Throne in the books probably, rather than Cersei; it sounds just like George to have a Fake Aegon vs. Real Aegon (Jon) and Dany in the books), but as George recently said in his 60 minutes interview, not all that different. And if you think that Book Euron is not going to kill and/or steal a Dragon in the books, well, you’d be wrong.

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    38. Rizwan,

      You have no idea what GRRM plans to with this story, hell we don’t even know if GRRM knows what to do with the story, especially the White Walker plot. If they turned the finale narrative of this story into humans vs White Walkers and zombies people would have been complaining about that too. If fact when this season began people were complaining that the show is all about White Walkers instead of human drama.

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    39. Firannion: I am seriously losing all hope that we will ever see Tyrion’s famous intelligence ever again.

      Has he made a significant strategic decision since leaving KL? Forgetting the silly wight demonstration from S7’s finale, I find it interesting that upon Tyrion’s return to KL, he used the baby reference to affect Cersei and Euron for different reasons….both possibly strategic.

      He saved KL during Blackwater. He’ll always be at his best to preserve it. Hopefully, he reignites in his favorite city.

      If only Varys operated as the sinister spider like at the end of ADwD…

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    40. Hodors Bastard,

      I hear what you’re saying. But beneath her knightly armor (literal and emotional), she’s shown how deeply sensitive she is, and how much honor means to her. Having Jaime cut chase and bail right after such intimacy cut to her core.

      If you ever know a woman who appears super tough and razor sharp, chances are the events in her past have left her so scarred that she’s simply buried her emotions. But if you can dig deep enough to expose them, then betray that trust, often those emotions are less mature and much harder for her to control. It’s all so raw and vulnerable and purely honest.

      I love Brienne and could relate to her reaction. Maybe that’s why I found it believable.

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    41. ThisGirlHasNoName: But if you can dig deep enough to expose them, then betray that trust, often those emotions are less mature and much harder for her to control. It’s all so raw and vulnerable and purely honest.

      Hmm. Well put. Between yours and RG’s reactions, I shall reassess. I thank you for that. Perhaps bitter divorce and death have stolen some empathy within and brought cynicism forward.

      Was Bran sitting nearby? Perhaps he would be able to show Brienne a moment of clarity between Jaime and Cersei in the sept next to their son’s rotting corpse…

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    42. I feel like this episode just destroyed a lot of the character. Jaime and Arya for example, reverting to selves from early seasons without any consideration for what they’ve learned and experienced about the world in the meantime. It felt like everything in the first 2 episodes was set up to be destroyed and I can’t think of a reason why. So Arya can parrot a line she said what she was 10? So Jaime can do his hateful line again? Wasteful

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    43. Personally, I loved this episode. I found it moving, tense (when you kept expecting Bronn to pop out with a crossbow), funny, emotionally devastating (Missandei’s demise) and shocking (Rhaegal’s demise). It really was a wonderful episode.

      I’m not surprised at how divisive it is turning out to be though and I feel since episode 3, this is going to be the new normal for GOT. The main characters all have passionate, vocal fanbases, so it’s no surprise that as things move into the endgame, each episode one or more of these fanbases are going to find massive faults when their respective favourite does something they hadn’t envisaged, or fails to do something they had.

      For me, it was last week, when Jon had no impact on the AOTD battle. I spent days feels disappointed and unsatisfied. I never wanted to criticise D&D, despite feeling the tactics and character portrayals were flawed. My opinions and dashed expectations didn’t give me a divine right to hurl abuse at the showrunners. I wish more “fans” would feel the same way. I can’t believe the abuse they are receiving for delivering the end of this story, George’s end to George’s story.

      This was never going to be an ending like Lord of the Rings where all the characters survive to the end (except Boromir’s early death) and remain “good” (except Boromir’s slight corruption by the ring). We all knew that huge numbers of named characters would die. We all knew that our favourite characters have always been portrayed as grey and may be driven to do unspeakable things by the horror that is Westeros. Yes it hurts, but to go into denial and start hurling abuse at the creators of this show seems so juvenile and to me represents people not fully understanding the nature of ASOIAF. George has not been writing a classic Good Triumphs Over Evil fantasy epic. His vision has always been muddier, less rudimentary. I will confess to feeling concerned about the ending now, but when all is said and done, I always knew what this story was and if My favourite, Jon, goes out in the least heroic, meaningful way (like being executed by Cersei after being captured in battle after doing something stupid), the I am going to cry buckets of tears and sadly, accept it, as I did his non-involvement with the AOTD.

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    44. Ten Bears:
      BranStark,

      Based on your apt description of Varys acting like a self-entitled Kingmaker and other characters’ actions, they could have titled Episode 4 “Oathbreakers”

      Varys: Preparing to forswear the queen he swore to serve.

      Sansa: Swears to keep a family secret; blurts it out to a blabbermouth ten minutes later.

      Jaime: “I’m an honorable man now; you can trust me.” A fewepisodes later: “I’m a hateful man, and I’m abandoning you.”

      Jon/Ghost: S1e1: “This one’s yours, Snow.”S8e4: “F*ck off Ghost.”

      Sam: “I’d like a pardon for stealing all of these Citadel books that were supposed to be so important to defeating the WWs…..…. Forget it. I never even used them.I’m splitting. My girl’s knocked up.” Arya S7e2: “I’m heading north girl. Back to Winterfell. I’m finally going home.”Arya S8e4: “On second thought, I don’t want to be back in Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”

      I know I missed some….

      Hahahahahaha!! True. I love the show. Even with all it’s flaws. But I have an objection with Jaime-Brienne love making.. I don’t know for me, knigting her felt more intimate, if they did make love, then Jaime shouldn’t be rushing to cersei like that, even to kill her.. I mean she should practically not exist for him.( what do I know.. but that’s how I navigate through relationships.. if I have moved on.. I have moved on for good.. I won’t ride a horse in the middle of the night no matter what)

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    45. Jon and Daenerys should ask Bran everything they need to know to kill Cersei Euron The golden Company and the Lannister Army…

      Bran knows everything…

      where everyone is

      where the scorpions are

      Tyrion wanted Bronn to help – Bran knows everything

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    46. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Hodors Bastard,

      It works for me too. I find myself feeling more sympathy for Dany than I ever would have expected. Not that I ever hated the character. She just never was one of my favorites. I was always partial to the Starks and Lannisters. But truly, her arc has become the one I’m most fascinated by. I think there still may be a twist left surrounding her character. Something that could alter her in a way that she could avoid falling too far down the path of paranoia and full blown madness.

      I don’t know. I’m just trying to think of a way the series could end with some sweetness. If both Dany and Jon die, that’s going to be tough to accomplish. I think it’s probably easier if just Jon dies, and that’s hard for me to say. For the show, I don’t believeDany dying and Jon surviving and being king would work well. If Jon somehow survives, I believe Dany will too. But who am I kidding? Of course Jon will die.

      I was always a Dany fan. But for me, when people say she is the mad queen.

      She listened to all of Tyrion’s advice ( casterly rock, getting her allies to siege King’s Landing)
      Listening to Jon to not burn the Red keep.
      Yes. It’s though for them to handle her, but she didn’t listen. Except for roasting Tarlys. Tyrion didn’t want her to go beyond the wall, yet she went. Until now, I see only the talk of the Mad Queen ( yes, it’s selfish of her to ask Jon not the reveal his parentage, I would have wished she declared him heir and stuff.. but I digress) If she roasts innocent people in the next episode I will say she’s a Mad queen. But, until now it’s just talk of her not having control over her impulses despite actually saving people and got no credit for it ( I accept she behaves entitled but when her beliefs are shaken she acted in a rather desperate way- begging Jon to not reveal his identity)

      But there was also no winning for her by coming to Westeros.
      If she uses Dargons, she’s a monster.
      If she uses Dothraki and Unsullied,she’s a foreigner.
      Help the local people, local people will snark at her and get credit for it , for making her come and help.

      So, there never was an absolute winning for Dany. She’s this sad sad character.
      When Tyrion used wildfire in war, it’s a tactic, but when Dany uses, it’s brutal.

      She can’t rule people well, govern people well is a great critic on her. Yes. but I still think that’s what small counsel is for. Varys has long stopped giving any useful info to the queen. Tyrion giving any meaningful advice. I don’t I am okay with her turning full villan, ( she has always been judged based on her father’s reputation -atleast in westeros)but her tragic story reminds me of “Karna” from indian mythology Mahabharatha, who almost had everything to win, but couldn’t win at the end of the day because of his and his ancestors previous deeds.

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    47. orange:

      Definitely agree with the first part. The story feels rushed, which results in scenes feeling either unearned and/or forced (e.g. Bronn/brothers, Tyrion/Varys, Brienne/Jaime). While I do not feel as strongly about Dany being a brand new person (her tendencies have been well illustrated throughout the seasons, see her fury after Barristan died), the lack of depth given to the Jon-Dany relationship, and the pace of the rollercoaster of Aegon-reveal, death of Jorah, Rhaegal, Missandei, Dothraki and Unsullied has resulted in a greatest-hits album, devoid of those necessary scenes in between. How would the Red Wedding have felt, if all we saw was Robb promising, Robb reneging, Robb reconsidering and Robb dying. Roose would have felt like Euron does at times. It also feels like the writers gave up on several characters (depending on what happens in the last two episodes), especially Bran.

      To be honest, I liked most of yesterday’s episode in itself, but as part of the overall story it feels like so much was skipped. It feels like a great story is in there somewhere, but we are given the cliff notes Martin gave B&W (both are at fault in my opinion). Shame, on my rewatch, the few stumbling blocks (Dorne, Theon’s rescue, cave paintings, Beyond the Wall) seemed minor issues, and I had some confidence the series would cement itself in the upper echelon of tv (story-wise). Barring some miraculous writing in the remaining episodes, I’m truly saddened the show’s final 1.5 seasons will likely damage its reputation significantly (which hopefully doesn’t affect the excitement for spin-offs too much).

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    48. On reflection, I’ve been wondering since they didn’t want to show Sansa’s and Arya’s reactions or Aegon revel what they might have been. Maybe they talked and decided that Arya would make sure both queens are dealt with, it is the only way to ensure their family safety. Arya becomes the lone-wolf, as it seems like she knows it is most likely a suicide mission cause she says she won’t be back. Lone-wolf dies, pack survives. Sansa’s agreed to this? maybe, she doesn’t seem concerned with an absent Arya.

      I also wonder if Sansa’s decision to reveal Jon’s true parentage to Tyrion has sealed his fate. It has effectively put a target on his back, and will guarantee a Aegon vs Daeny confrontation moment. I could see Daeny taking out Aegon before she dies, hell even Cersei if she finds out. Aegon will continue to trust and try and communicate and will put himself in dangerous situations one too many times. His sense of self-preservation is weak, he will be vulnerable and I think Ned2.0 will get himself killed because he don’t understand the Game of Thrones at all.

      Of course if anyone kills Aegon, Arya will try and take out… she is heading into dangerous territory, and has a lot of high-value targets, her luck is going to run out – even she thinks so… unless Sandor can save her, but he will have his own distractions…. I wonder if Aegon and company will even know that Arya and Sandor, or even Jamie will also be in KL, will Sansa inform them?

      If Sansa becomes Queen after this, essentially knowingly acting in a way that endangers her 2 family members heading down to KL, making the situation down there much more chaotic and unpredictable… I’m not sure I will like that at all, especially as she stays safe in WF… I guess it is smart, but it is so cold and unlikable.

      THANKS for all the article links, I don’t always hive time to read them all, but I do enjoy reading your captions and selecting a few that sound interesting.

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    49. Everybody I have talked to in person has loved all 4 episodes.

      Yet you come online and you would think it is the worst show ever.

      Stay classy nerds. Stay classy!!

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    50. And for the multiple people complaining about Sansa and Arya’s reaction to Jon not being shown….

      This was the 4th time the same story was told in the show. It gets redundant. Hence why the reaction wasn’t shown. That is basic story telling. Not some grand conspiracy of the characters.

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    51. The Bastard,

      So true! It’s the same reason no-one told anything about Littlefinger on screen, they are not going to show things we as a viewer already know unless it’s necessary for the plot.
      I didn’t miss their reaction, hadn’t even noticed they didn’t show it until I came to read here.

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    52. The Bastard,

      A co-worker of mine who is a casual but dedicated watcher is normally not picky at all and loves all episodes overall, even he ranted a bit when I brought up ep 4 lol.

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    53. RG,

      Varys wasn’t protecting the Mad King, he was protecting the people of King’s Landing, the sacking of the city by the Lannister army would have been a brutal event filled with rape robbery and murder.

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    54. In which Sepinwall finally just admits that he never particularly liked the show.

      This last season it really feels like critics want to get all their digs in.

      Sean T Collins tweet here was pretty prophetic RE people wanting the show to fail: https://twitter.com/theseantcollins/status/892081784321708036

      Personally while I thought Season 7 was rushed in places I haven’t at all thought that with Season 8. If anything they’ve been taking their time where they need to, I’m sick of bullshit travelogues and the exposition the fandom now seems to be demanding, every last bit spoonfed….

      JamesL:
      This also explains why The Long Night episode has seen such a drop in its IMDB ratings.

      All you said is true, but there are also people coordinating to make fake accounts on IMDB and give the most recent episodes multiple 1 star ratings.

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    55. Nikki:
      I feel like this episode just destroyed a lot of the character. Jaime

      Genuinely incredible that some people genuinely think Jaime isn’t going to kill Cersei.

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    56. The only thing I want in the next episode is for Arya and the Hound to check-in with Hotpie on the road to Kingslanding.

      This must happen!

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    57. Hodors Bastard: Perhaps I am biased from Brienne’s Dante-esque journey through hell in AFFC, but I simply didn’t agree with her reaction. The show treats her very different indeed. As I said, I’m probably too harsh, but I believe she would be fighting back tears in that moment instead of the rainstorm we got. She knows his curse and his many atrocities…one does not simply walk away from that and embark on redemptive fantasy, imho.

      I actually thought the scene was going well until the rainstorm. Wouldn’t she feel slightly betrayed and used?

      I’m feeling more like this also. Brienne is such a strong woman who has never wavered from the fighter she wanted to be. Now she’s a knight, a leader in battle leading the vanguard, and she sobs begging Jamie not to leave her? Fighting back tears perhaps, but imo didn’t fit with the fighter she is.

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    58. JamesL,

      I think the strong reaction to The Long Night is literally just nerd rage over so many fan theories biting the dust and will eventually die down, when people are able to put it in context of the whole of season 8 and the whole of the series.

      There have been overblown fan reactions before. I remember very well, how many people were complaining about the Mountain and the Viper immediately after airing. The reason was that all the book-reading fans kept staring at their watch and became frustrated when the episode devoted to so much time to Tyrion’s (non-book) story about a retarded cousin crushing beetles, when they felt it should have gone to the duel.

      On a rewatch, Tyrion’s cell scenes are pretty strong and the duel is just as long as it needs to be, not a second too long or short. Moreover, the dark of cell scenes works in nice contrast to the bright sunlight of the arena, when we get there.

      I think TLN was a good and tense episode in the slightly blockbustery Hollywoodey style of the last couple of seasons (much better than Beyond the Wall, which really was pretty ridiculous). When people get over their disappointment that the WWs were not so central to the story, I think its score will improve – especially if the series manages to deliver a satisfactory ending.

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    59. Direcat: I’m feeling more like this also. Brienne is such a strong woman who has never wavered from the fighter she wanted to be. Now she’s a knight, a leader in battle leading the vanguard, and she sobs begging Jamie not to leave her? Fighting back tears perhaps, but imo didn’t fit with the fighter she is.

      Brienne being “strong” when it comes to combat that means literally nothing about whether she is sensitive in other areas. She has always been sensitive about matters of the heart. She puts on a stoic exteriour specifically because she does not want to be wounded in this way. Then Jaime finds her most sensitive and tender feelings – about how no one can really love someone like her – about how she is hideous, a giant, a joke – and sticks in the knife. That taking her virginity is just a laugh or a game to cruel men like Jaime. Even that her knighting by him was just part of the game, just a lark, a laugh. Confirming her insecurities. Of course she is shattered.

      I do feel like some people have a weird relationship with female warrior. Like they can’t possibly be romantic figures, but are weird sexless, heartless robots. The entire point of Brienne’s character is that this is not the case. Even in AFFC, remember Brienne is heard by the brotherhood after her ordeal with Biter whispering Jaime’s name.

      cosca,

      Yes. I felt it wasn’t just subtextual, but actually textual here that Jaime was intentionally pushing Brienne away because he doesn’t want her to follow him when he goes to his doom / kills Cersei, which he is doing because he believes he is responsible for Cersei’s rise to power. He wants Brienne to be free of him. Do people honestly think that anything about what Jaime has done in the first 4 episodes – other than this obvious lie to Brienne – indicates he still *loves* Cersei and wants to be with her one iota?

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    60. The show’s constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash
      EXTENDED
      After the last episode I just don’t know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King’s Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they’re sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city – how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?
      Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about “compromising” with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it’s better to have hundreds die to save thousands.
      And it’s ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that “every life is precious” message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can’t bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What’s the message here- don’t bother fighting injustice because you’re going to have to make hard choices along the way?
      But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting – “Cocks do matter.” So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow’s cock so powerful he’s gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?
      Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that’s what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the “I’m sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you’re too hysterical after watching your best friends die.” argument. What a shit ride it’s been. There’s nothing bittersweet about this, it’s just plain nihilism.

      ~picked up from reddit

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    61. It is difficult to land a big show like this with so many grey characters. D&D are clearly struggling. GRRM has hundreds more characters and has been taking a lifetime to wrap up his books. However, we need to give D&D some credit – despite the clear cracks showing.

      My focus in the story has always been Jaime Lannister and his stunning storyline. I remain deeply interested in him. His storyline explores several things – identity mainly – Who is the man I meant to be? We are still working on that. Now he is off for a confrontation with his sister. He may not survive it but that would be a part of his story and that still interests me.

      Jaime loves Brienne both spiritually and carnally. I do not doubt it. Is that enough for them to find a future together? Truth is – at long as Cersei is alive and is queen, that will be difficult. Jaime has to address that. Either he goes back to live with Cersei or he has to help snuff her out.

      If he survives (and that is highly uncertain), Brienne should give him a major beat down with Oathkeeper when he comes back to her – which I think he will if he survives his trip south.

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    62. It seems to me most people are ignoring that Jon refused to be hair to the Iron Throne but want to follow Danny and only then Danny begged him to not tell anyone who is really is as this would make the people push him onto that throne and he cannot prevent it. I can’t see anything selfish in this. Danny will not go mad Dragon Queen.
      Further I think Bran saying, he is living in the past most time, or better I hope, this is a hint that Bran finally will take a huge role for the last big twist that is coming.

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    63. QueenOfThrones,

      Clearly she is sensitive. Saying she is strong doesn’t say she isn’t sensitive. Her entire life she has dealt with ridicule and hurt by cultivating a hard shell for protection and has dealt with her hurts in private.
      I have a difference of opinion from you in how I believe she would have instinctively reacted to Jaimes ultimate hurt and betrayal. She’s never been a blubbering person – penetrating hurt can be shown in other ways not just crying.

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    64. Alan Sepinwall analysis in Rolling Stone is well put.
      What I found odd about Tyrion and Vary’s discussion was the lack of mention of Cersei …. I mean her elimination from the equation has to take priority over who sits the throne. Maybe Varys was talking about the future?

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    65. QueenOfThrones: Brienne being “strong” when it comes to combat that means literally nothing about whether she is sensitive in other areas. She has always been sensitive about matters of the heart.

      People seem to be forgetting that she cried like crazy when Renly was killed, as well. I just rewatched that scene and she falls over his body, clinging to it and crying and screaming.

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    66. I love the show, and I love the books, but if you can’t detect a deterioration in the quality over the past 3 seasons, I just don’t know what else there is to say.

      GoT was exceptional television not because of CGI, or record-setting stuntwork, or IMDB ratings.. it was the first broadcast television show in the fantasy genre to let everyone be smart. Everyone had plans, and the plans made sense, regardless of whether the average viewer might be rooting for or against them. When things went wrong with those plans, it felt believable, and when things went right, it felt earned.

      Now? How much farther away from those ideals can a show get? From a plot perspective, Game of Thrones has become a parody of itself. I sometimes expect the camera to spin around, show the actors smoking cigarettes, and find out the whole season has been a very expensive Jimmy Fallon skit.

      Nerd rage? Hardly.

      I’m not mad, just disappointed.

        Quote  Reply

    67. FromReddit,

      This is so dumb it’s hard to know where to start.

      1) Varys has always been incredibly consistent in talking about the plights of the peasants and the poor.

      2) Of course they accept that some peasants will die. But there’s that and then there’s a firestorm consuming thousands of people!!

      3) Tyrion’s entire arc in the show has been moving towards him becoming a more moral person, THAT is why he now cares more about these things. Although you just need to look at his face during Blackwater to see he was far from happy burning people alive.

      4) When Tyrion made the deal with the slavers there was a total lack of other options. Without Dany, and with internal strife, there was no way for them to proceed with war. Here they DO have a choice.

      5) Yeah, Dany has a good history: that’s the whole point! They were attracted to that! And she’s starting to go back on it!

      6) When Varys said that cocks matter this was from a practical point of view, not that that is what is preferable!

      Reddit has totally abandoned any sense whatsoever. I bet that shite is from those freefolk geniuses

        Quote  Reply

    68. The Many-Faced Goddess: People seem to be forgetting that she cried like crazy when Renly was killed, as well. I just rewatched that scene and she falls over his body, clinging to it and crying and screaming.

      True. Brienne is a weeper and kneeler and a fighter. Best woman in the series though!

      I also think that Nutter said that he filmed Gwen Christie acting Brienne through hearing a different speech from NCW as Jaime than the one we heard.

      NCW (as Jaime) was instructed by the director to tell Brienne that he did not love her etc. So Christie’s acting is in response to that. Then NCW did a different take with the lines to be used in the episode. Yes, NCW knew what the final speech in the scene would be but not Gwen. (I think this is how it was done but of course, others may know more!)

      Gwen did a very nice job of a severely upset Brienne.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Juri: Juri
      May 7, 2019 at 8:37 am

      Thank you! Some people’s head cannon go so against the evidence it’s hilarious.

      It’s just… I don’t know where anyone would be coming from thinking it’s out of character for Brienne to cry. It’s exactly 100% in character. This is the second time she’s losing a man she loves (one to actual death, one to probable death) and both times she has reacted the same exact way – only last time she had Catelyn with her to force her to pull herself together so they could escape.

      ETA to Mango:
      That’s interesting! I didn’t know they may have filmed her reacting to a different speech, as well.

        Quote  Reply

    70. mau:
      cosca,

      Yeah. It seems that the show writing is still to “nuanced” for half of the audience

      It is even worse when reading people’s reactions to Westworld. That show went over 80% of the audiences head and the complaints were hilarious. People outing themselves at not being intelligent enough to follow the show is especially comical. There are some things I am not intelligent enough to discuss but I usually keep my mouth shut and listen to more intelligent men or women to educate myself more.

      I enjoyed some of the backlash Interstellar got when some internet fans complained about the science behind the movie. Yet the script was written with the best minds behind it.

      I don’t put much stock into the masses opinion. As GRRM says, art should not be a democracy… and this fandom is a perfect example why.

      There are some legit complaints. But a vast majority of the complaining I have seen has come from fans who then go on to give details which show they don’t understand what they are watching. And if you try to argue with them, they just double down on their ignorance instead of trying to learn more.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ten Bears:
      BranStark,

      Based on your apt description of Varys acting like a self-entitled Kingmaker and other characters’ actions, they could have titled Episode 4 “Oathbreakers”

      Varys: Preparing to forswear the queen he swore to serve.

      Sansa: Swears to keep a family secret; blurts it out to a blabbermouth ten minutes later.

      Jaime: “I’m an honorable man now; you can trust me.” A fewepisodes later: “I’m a hateful man, and I’m abandoning you.”

      Jon/Ghost: S1e1: “This one’s yours, Snow.”S8e4: “F*ck off Ghost.”

      Sam: “I’d like a pardon for stealing all of these Citadel books that were supposed to be so important to defeating the WWs…..…. Forget it. I never even used them.I’m splitting. My girl’s knocked up.” Arya S7e2: “I’m heading north girl. Back to Winterfell. I’m finally going home.”Arya S8e4: “On second thought, I don’t want to be back in Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”

      I know I missed some….

      hahahhahaa! All true, all true.

      We have to squint past some of these transgressions.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Grayven Reyne:
      I love the show, and I love the books, but if you can’t detect a deterioration in the quality over the past 3 seasons, I just don’t know what else there is to say.

      […]

      Nerd rage?Hardly.

      I’m not mad, just disappointed.

      I think there is some deterioration of quality. When left to their own devices the show runners tend to go for cliched Hollywood-logic and prioritize moving plot forward to character development way too much.

      However, I don’t think it’s so clear-cut. The earlier seasons had their weird decisions, which people complained about at the time (“Where are my dragons?!” S2). When the show devoted too much time to travel people were complaining about it as well (Bran’s travel scenes in S3).

      I rewatched the whole series before the beginning of Season 8. I thought S5 was very hit and miss. Season 6, which I had not rewatched since 2016, worked very well and had classic stuff such as Tower of Joy and Hold the Door. The final episode was excellent too.

      Season 7 I thought was when things took a deep dive with plenty of dialogue that felt like fan fic and some ridiculous decisions (Missandei has never heard of the concept of marriage? Hello? She knows dozens of languages, some of which probably have that word. She had watched her khaleesi getting married to Hizzdadakhf mo adsfasdlkjf earlier in the series).

      Nevertheless, I think Season 8 has largely been a return to form. The first episode compares favorably to almost any season opener (except Two Swords). Episode 2 was very atmospheric with plenty of emotional resonance and eps 3 and 4 work too even if they are pretty Hollywoody compared to things like the Red Wedding and Blackwater.

      Fortunately, D&D can do a perfectly good job when hitting GRRM’s plotpoints (“Hold the Door!”), so there is hope we will get a decent endgame.

      Also I think nerd rage over cherished fan theories definitely does play a part too 😉

        Quote  Reply

    73. Cersei knows the value of prisoners. Sansa needs better guards.

      As for Arya, just like Nymeria (both wolf and woman) was exiled by conflict, but went on to bring her people (pack) together in order to escape and build a new life and a new world – well. That’s Arya. The only question left is who is on the list of survivors who go West of Westeros in the end.

        Quote  Reply

    74. I predict that – The young girl in S8 E2 that looks like Shireen (more like Jon Snow) who talked to Davos and was holding Lord Varys hand in the Winterfelll Crypt is

      Jon Snow and Ygritte’s daughter – The Last Targaryen and future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms

        Quote  Reply

    75. So is anyone going to think Bran is going down to Kingslanding? Why have a saddle made for him? Something is amidst with this, might be a twist to think about

        Quote  Reply

    76. firstone,

      What?! When did Ygritte give birth? I did think she was pregnant when seeing Gilly and didn’t kill her. But if she would have had a child, Tormund would know that.

        Quote  Reply

    77. RG: All of this!
      As far as Arya, I’m thinking now that she must have been given an off screen mission. I hope so. Because saying “We’re the only Starks left we have to stick together” and five minutes later on her way out the door saying “I’m never coming back to Winterfell either” gave me just a touch of whiplash.

      I’ve been thinking this as well. Also considering that Arya left without a goodbye scene with Sansa and Bran? Just.. leaving? I’m hoping there is more to it, because it felt very abrupt. Not like the goodbyes Jon had with his friends.

      It does have me a bit worried though. I little while back, a YouTuber predicted that Arya would kill Dany. At the time, I scoffed at it, but now.. it might not be that farfetched. Is she going after both Queens? I still say that Arya won’t get Cersei, but would she kill Dany (especially if she sees her burning KL with Drogon)? That could be what she meant by not returning to Winterfell. She could never return home after that given how broken Jon would be, so she sails west.

      I said it before, but this last episode has me on pins and needles for where the story is going..

        Quote  Reply

    78. Enharmony1625,

      The only way I can see Arya (and Sansa) hatching a plan like that would be as a last resort if Dany turned on Jon. I just cannot see them resorting to murder to get rid of a queen they don’t trust or think is fit to rule (this seems to be the biggest problem they have with her). Aside from the fact that Arya doesn’t kill people who haven’t wronged her, Dany is also the woman Jon loves. I don’t think she could hurt him like that or go against her own principles. I think it’s definitely only a last resort if Dany tries to hurt Jon (which I can’t see happening either – anger and rage aside, I don’t think she’s “mad”).

        Quote  Reply

    79. Chilli:
      firstone,

      What?! When did Ygritte give birth? I did think she was pregnant when seeing Gilly and didn’t kill her. But if she would have had a child, Tormund would know that.

      I think it was a joke because nope, it would have been impossible. They were only together for a matter of weeks and didn’t have sex until they were heading to the Wall. She died not very long after they went over.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Clob,

      Time is so consistent in Game of Thrones and so easy to predict.

      The little girl is from the North… she will have support of Sansa and the Northern People and Kings Landing could be destroyed by Daenerys.

      A lot of people in S8 talk about babies and being pregnant… everyone but Daenerys

      Maybe the little girls name is Martha?

      Maybe Tormand unlike Sansa can keep a secret, maybe he doesn’t know?

        Quote  Reply


    81. Che:
      Enharmony1625,

      The only way I can see Arya (and Sansa) hatching a plan like that would be as a last resort if Dany turned on Jon. I just cannot see them resorting to murder to get rid of a queen they don’t trust or think is fit to rule (this seems to be the biggest problem they have with her). Aside from the fact that Arya doesn’t kill people who haven’t wronged her, Dany is also the woman Jon loves. I don’t think she could hurt him like that or go against her own principles. I think it’s definitely only a last resort if Dany tries to hurt Jon (which I can’t see happening either – anger and rage aside, I don’t think she’s “mad”).

      I was wondering about Varys’ line about ” She will bend him to his will”. So, by extension if Jon becomes King, Varys and Tyrion can technically do that to him right? ( bend him to their will) ” She is too strong for him” ( She is too strong for us – She won’t listen to us Aka we can’t control her) except, she listened to their counsel until now in the Westeros. I am just sitting here and thinking.. I know she did panic about Jon’s claim and stuff… but.. I am still not very sure of Varys and Tyrion’s moral high ground here.

        Quote  Reply

    82. OT: I saw a headline on daily mail website that the ending of the show leaked? Is that true? Is it real?

      Theres not really a spoiler in here but the headline says that

      the ending has fans livid and the worst ending on tv

        Quote  Reply

    83. I’ve said this before in other threads and elsewhere, but the way I see it, criticism of the show boils down to a few specific groups: book readers salty about the fact GRRM will never finish the series, folks’ favorite characters taking a negative but highly foreshadowed turn (ex. Dany), and the other is people who feel it isn’t as strong as the early seasons.

      The first group just need to get over themselves – it’s pretty clear GRRM at best has no idea what he is doing with the series and at worst just doesn’t care about it anymore.

      The second group of people simply have not been paying close attention as to where the story has been clearly headed.

      The third group of people is the one I can sympathize with to an extent, even though I disagree with them. I’ve read the books twice, and I think Season 6 was the best season of this show, with the first 5 episodes being great, the middle being solid, and the final two episodes being absolute masterpieces. I actually appreciate that the show really ramped things into high gear these last few seasons, as 10 seasons of this show would be overstaying it’s welcome, which is what other lesser shows (The Walking Dead) have fallen victim to.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Che,

      Yes, those are very good points, and I hope you’re right! Episode 4 just left me feeling so.. uneasy.

      I think you mentioned in another thread about where is the “sweet” in this bittersweet ending, and that’s what I’m wondering as well. I don’t want the ending to feel dour and tragic. Not to say there can’t be tragedy, but it has to be balanced with hope.

        Quote  Reply

    85. George,

      “This is why George will never finish the series; not only is he tangled up with a lot of extra plots that never made the show, but he really can’t win with his ending. All fandom is Toxic in the Internet Era. People build up expectations of how plots will go for years and then they get upset when the story veers in a different way.”

      GRRM is not likely to finish the series because he has allowed his appetites to inflate the scope of this story to an unmanageable scale. Unmanageable, in view of the multiple rods he keeps in the fire re: the sheer number of plotlines and characters in the story, maintaining his business interests, maintaining non-ASoIaF artistic interests and pretty much living, what many consider, an overly indulgent lifestyle. I’m 66 years old and keep several rods in the kiln going myself, but I’d be fooling myself to think that I’m as productive WRT volume of production as I was even 10 years ago. Or to put it another way, I don’t run a 5K as fast as I did 10 years ago and it takes me longer to recover even considering both the reduced speed and frequency of the runs.
      This is pure speculation, but I submit that GRRM would have Winds of Winter on the shelves now and might very well have ADoS well into the first draft had it not been for this TV series being made. OTOH WoW might be well into the second draft right now and, hopefully, undergoing review by a talented, independent editor. None of us knows where he is with this project, and when viewed from afar, it’s not clear that GRRM does either. Taking it a step further, GRRM may very well not even *want* to finish it.
      There is something to said for Alexander’s solution(s) when encountering the Gordian Knot.

        Quote  Reply

    86. So Dany is now “mad”? All the people She cares about and 2 of her dragons are dead. It is a pretty normal human emotion to have.

      Only a sociopath would not get angry and vengeful!

      The only sociopaths on the show are the Starks. Sansa is basically a Ramsey/Litllefinger hybrid now and Arya is a child blooded assassin. Bran is also long gone.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Mango:
      It is difficult to land a big show like this with so many grey characters. D&D are clearly struggling. GRRM has hundreds more characters and has been taking a lifetime to wrap up his books. However, we need to give D&D some credit – despite the clear cracks showing.

      My focus in the story has always been Jaime Lannister and his stunning storyline. I remain deeply interested in him. His storyline explores several things – identity mainly – Who is the man am I meant to be? We are still working on that. Now he is off for a confrontation with his sister. He may not survive it but that would be a part of his story and that still interests me.

      Jaime loves Brienne both spiritually and carnally. I do not doubt it. Is that enough for them to find a future together? Truth is – at long as Cersei is alive and is queen, that will be difficult. Jaime has to address that. Either he goes back to live with Cersei or he has to help snuff her out.

      If he survives (and that is highly uncertain), Brienne should give him a major beat down with Oathkeeper when he comes back to her – which I think he will if he survives his trip south.

      I did not see people complain on the story, only how it was presented. Everyone can be fine with e.g. Arya killing the NK, but not with her doing an impossible jump out of nowhere. And they recently did a lot of stuff like it.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Joseph Mobile:
      I’ve said this before in other threads and elsewhere, but the way I see it, criticism of the show boils down to a few specific groups: book readers salty about the fact GRRM will never finish the series, folks’ favorite characters taking a negative but highly foreshadowed turn (ex. Dany), and the other is people who feel it isn’t as strong as the early seasons.

      The first group just need to get over themselves – it’s pretty clear GRRM at best has no idea what he is doing with the series and at worst just doesn’t care about it anymore.

      The second group of people simply have not been paying close attention as to where the story has been clearly headed.

      The third group of people is the one I can sympathize with to an extent, even though I disagree with them.I’ve read the books twice, and I think Season 6 was the best season of this show, with the first 5 episodes being great, the middle being solid, and the final two episodes being absolute masterpieces.I actually appreciate that the show really ramped things into high gear these last few seasons, as 10 seasons of this show would be overstaying it’s welcome, which is what other lesser shows (The Walking Dead) have fallen victim to.

      Nice post.

      A lot to agree with here.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Redx,

      I was also thinking, if she has flown her dragons to red keep as soon as she landed, Only people in the castle and Cersei would have died. How is starving a city a better option? Will Cersei Starve? no She will be the last one standing, because Queen and all. So, people have to revolt and create a civil war? When it’s war, what’s the most peaceful way? Will unsullied Sack the city? or will they just attack soldiers and the golden cloaks if Dany orders? I don’t know.. What’s a good way to win War? if the other person is Cersei and she’s hell bent on killing as many people as she can before she dies , just in spite? Will Cersei come to battle field and fight? I don’t think so.. So, there is no cleaver plan unless they assassinate Cersei… Dany is all lose-lose here..

        Quote  Reply

    90. Hodors Bastard,

      Well, I think he said all these things to Brienne, so she won’t follow him.

      At least Sansa/Brienne scene suggests it.
      Brienne tells Jaime that Daenerys has been ambushed by Euron, and she lost the dragon, few ships and some crew; and on top of that Missandei has been kidnapped.
      Then Sansa says, that she always wanted to see Cersei executed, but it seems, like she won’t have a chance. At first I thought it’s about Dany being pissed so hard, that Sansa belives she will burn the city down. But I actually think she means, that Dany will not be able to conquer King’s Landing.

      Then, later in the episode we have a scene of Jaime thinking, and then he heads south leaving Brienne behind.

      It all feels like he took his final mission to stop his sister like he did with the Mad King, and complete the full circle.

        Quote  Reply

    91. firstone: Time is so consistent in Game of Thrones and so easy to predict.

      You’re right that much of the time it’s impossible to know how much time has passed. In this case though we know it’s not a matter of many months and definitely not long enough for Ygritte to be pregnant from not showing to full term and deliver between the time Jon left her and she died.

      On the show they had sex in the cave in “Kissed by Fire” and their very next scene was putting on climbing spikes in “The Climb.” After getting over the Wall their first scene in “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” they’ve just started the walk to Castle Black. Ygritte asks him how long it will take to get there and Jon says, “A week, I think.” When Jon makes it back they only have a couple days to prepare for the attack.

      In the books they have sex for the first time in SoS Jon II and he escapes from them in Jon V. It wasn’t a length of time even close to 9 months.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Episode 4 did an 11.8
      Second highest of the four. I’m curious to see if a lot of the po’d people actually do quit watching 😛 I don’t know how one can watch 71 episodes and stop with just two left though

        Quote  Reply

    93. How I think Jaime will die and how I hope Cersei is killed

      I think Jaime will die saving Sansa’s life… someone like Bronn will attempt to kill Sansa with a crossbow and Jaime will jump in front of Sansa saving her life but will be killed by the arrow. Sansa lets Cersei visit Jaime’s dead body similar to when she and Jaime visited Joffery and Tywin’s dead bodies… Jaime is lying in state, Cersei bends over to kiss Jaime goodbye, Jaime opens his eyes and strangles Cersei to death with both hands…. Arya rips Jaime’s face off and reveals herself… then Sandor Clegane decapitates Cersei’s head and it is mounted outside the Dragon Pit.

        Quote  Reply

    94. BranStark:
      Redx,

      I was also thinking, if she has flown her dragons to red keep as soon as she landed, Only people in the castle and Cersei would have died. How is starving a city a better option? Will Cersei Starve? no She will be the last one standing, because Queen and all. So, people have to revolt and create a civil war? When it’s war, what’s the most peaceful way? Will unsullied Sack the city? or will they just attack soldiers and the golden cloaks if Dany orders? I don’t know.. What’s a good way to win War? if the other person is Cersei and she’s hell bent on killing as many people as she can before she dies , just in spite? Will Cersei come to battle field and fight? I don’t think so.. So, there is no cleaver plan unless they assassinate Cersei… Dany is all lose-lose here..

      You know what? I actually agree with that. Cersei blew up a giant building in the center of town and people are still living in the city voluntarily. Dany should have swept in before all those scorpions were built and the human shields were brought in and she could have done a public relations clean up later.
      Although I do wonder what would happen if you combined dragonfire with wildfire…

      Now, however, it does kind of have to be an assassin situation if she doesn’t want to destroy the city entirely. Enter our candidates: Arya, Jaime, Sandor, Euron if he finds out she was lying about his prince, A FM from the Iron bank…
      Surprise Sansa?
      Okay probably not Surprise Sansa. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    95. Clob,

      What episode does it say Planetos women are pregnant for 9 months?

      Maybe it’s nine weeks? maybe two weeks? It’s a different Planet with Magic and Spells and a Night King and dead people

        Quote  Reply

    96. cosca:
      This latest episode now has a 7.0 on IMDB now lol. Just absurd. The next lowest has 8.1

      I think because it became a “trend” now to jump on a hate train. Suddenly all previous three episodes had a massive downvoting themselves. Seems that some people now completely turned against the show and in my eyes, that’s so damn immature and un-fan like. I’m honestly thinking to alienate myself from internet completely these days because I imagine it will be madness when the finale airs as people will be pissed. I know I loved this episode myself, more than the first episode and pretty much tied with second of this season.

        Quote  Reply

    97. firstone,
      Ha! You can’t let it go huh. 😛 I think it would have been made a point in the books and show if these humans have full term pregnancies of unusual length. Do you think she could gestate a baby in less than two days?? She wasn’t knowingly or visibly pregnant when she shot Jon with arrows and then she died at CB a couple of days later. Nobody else in the show has been pregnant and birthed a baby in an abnormally quick time, other than Melisandre. Still, even her magic smoke baby took quite a while to gestate.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Mango,

      This. I’ve always been just completely riveted to the Jaime and Brienne story line in the books and show.

      They are, in my opinion, the truest love story in the series (it’s very clear in their book POVs and the actors have really done a great job with it) And Jaime has the best character arc. I have to have faith that they won’t take it away from him. That he’s jumping in front of the bear again. For or in honor of Brienne.

        Quote  Reply

    99. cosca:
      This latest episode now has a 7.0 on IMDB now lol. Just absurd. The next lowest has 8.1

      Revenge Of The Nerds

      This pretty much proves it is a scam.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Rizwan,

      “…all of my negative comments about the episode 3 have not been shown.”
      Perhaps it is the manner in which you attempt to beat down fellow fans with your perfunctory wisdom that has caused moderators to limit your drivel in these threads….

        Quote  Reply

    101. RG:
      Mango,

      This. I’ve always been just completely riveted to the Jaime and Brienne story line in the books and show.

      They are, in my opinion, the truest love story in the series (it’s very clear in their book POVs and the actors have really done a great job with it) And Jaime has the best character arc. I have to have faith that they won’t take it away from him. That he’s jumping in front of the bear again. For or in honor of Brienne.

      I think and hope so given Jaime’s arc.

      However, this may not be the direction the story takes. Sometimes it turns out that life is bitter and random.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Rizwan,

      Nothing more pathetic than to beat down those who love the show. “Oh, look at me! I hate it and you all are dumb for liking it!” Seriously do everyone a favor and go trash it somewhere else.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Dee Stark:
      OT: I saw a headline on daily mail website that the ending of the show leaked? Is that true? Is it real?

      Theres not really a spoiler in here but the headline says that

      I have no idea about that but at the end of the day, it’s up to every individual whether they’ll end up liking or not liking the end. I know for myself that “THe End” from LOST is trashed left and right on the internet and it’s one of my very favorite TV episodes. The same thing can as well happen with GoT finale. I personally don’t think for a moment I wouldn’t like it though.

        Quote  Reply

    104. BranStark:
      Redx,

      I was also thinking, if she has flown her dragons to red keep as soon as she landed, Only people in the castle and Cersei would have died. How is starving a city a better option? Will Cersei Starve? no She will be the last one standing, because Queen and all. So, people have to revolt and create a civil war? When it’s war, what’s the most peaceful way? Will unsullied Sack the city? or will they just attack soldiers and the golden cloaks if Dany orders? I don’t know.. What’s a good way to win War? if the other person is Cersei and she’s hell bent on killing as many people as she can before she dies , just in spite? Will Cersei come to battle field and fight? I don’t think so.. So, there is no cleaver plan unless they assassinate Cersei… Dany is all lose-lose here..

      You never studied sieges in history, have you? From the 1st Punic war to Alexander’s wars of conquest to wars of the Spring and Autumn period in ancient China to the 1st Crusades siege of Antioch, the majority of the time, when morale gets low during sieges, there is always someone willing to open the gates for fair compensation.

      The other times, they sally out or just give up. Rarely do people fight to the last man when there are options on the table.

        Quote  Reply

    105. This is just me wondering… my info came from here months ago from what I remeber.

      I wonder what happens in the dragonpit. We know Emilia didn’t film. Kit arrived late and there is some debate whether he filmed or not. It seems Sophie and Peter were there along with Liam but we don’t actually know who shot any scenes. I do wonder if there is wildfire under the dragonpit and that is the last big twist?

        Quote  Reply

    106. Rizwan: Seriously, if you are unable to see the huge problems of the last two episodes and the betrayal they done to the overall story of Song of Ice and Fire, then you are totally incapable of critical thinking or you are a new “fan” who only came to GoT for the cool battle scenes.
      Anyone who has a modicum of brain can understand that the books, and the shows for a while, was about how petty squabbling among humans is making them oblivious and vulnerable to the real threat of magic and death; the real enemy has always been the White Walkers. And you are really petty enough to label the people who has enough brain to notice that as haters when they get angry that their favorite show has betrayed itself.
      Try to process this to understand your brain capacity: If a ship (camouflaged) can see a flying dragon, how can that same dragon and its rider not see that ship from the air. The writers have no brains, and its clear from this; it was just played for a cheap shock.

      You lost me as soon as I got to the first sentence of your post. What I thought was boy this person has issues. People can disagree with you that is fine. People have different opinions that is fine. But looking down on other people’s opinions that differ from yours — well makes you not a critical thinking person.

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    107. At this point, for all we know, it’s Jon who goes full Targ crazy after any number of unexpected personal losses. That could be the biggest twist of all, from the show writers perspective. Not that it would make sense, but he is a Targ after all. And the writers love their unexpected twists, “regardless of the personal cost”. I have absolutely no idea what’s coming, and I don’t think anybody else does either.

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    108. Lord Parramandas,

      There has always been a minority of fans who have wanted the show to fail, and they have done everything they can to make it fail. Unlike episode 3, I genuinely expected the reaction to the last episode to be positive, and was shocked at the reaction. People who moaned about there being too much screen time for Grey Worm and Missandei were suddenly criticising the show as being racist for killing her. That type of hypocrisy is awful.

      To be honest it is no longer fun to talk and read about Game of Thrones online in places like this. That is not the fault of the excellent writers of this site nor D&D. I can think of no ending that will have a positive reaction from this minority of fans. They’ve ruined it, but that was what they always wanted. I mean the glee from some of them at the lower imdb ratings is nauseating. Why do they want the show to fail?

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    109. Adam: It all feels like he took his final mission to stop his sister like he did with the Mad King, and complete the full circle.

      I completely agree. Jaime starts with the Mad King and ends with a Mad Queen. At least that’s the obvious perception of the scene’s intent. With Arya, Hound, Bronn and Jaime in the mix though, it may not be that straightforward.

      The Many-Faced Goddess: People seem to be forgetting that she cried like crazy when Renly was killed, as well. I just rewatched that scene and she falls over his body, clinging to it and crying and screaming.

      I disagree with this depiction. Brienne yelped when the ghost baby stabbed Renly (as anyone in her position would) then rushed to him and covered/protected him but did not lose it. She didn’t have time to blubber because she had to fight off the guards and escape.

      Like I mentioned before, I thought the Jaime-Brienne scene was well done except for the rainstorm…but as others have pointed out, maybe I haven’t considered the buildup of extreme intensity within Brienne over the years (and especially the past few episodes). The two men in her life disappeared too suddenly. I simply feel that she would have considered the maniacal/sociopathic tendencies of her lover and pushed back the welling tears.

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    110. One thing I liked about this episode is that moment when we’re inside Dany’s head, realising that nobody in the room truly has her back. She’s feeling very alone, no Jorah at her side.

      That was a moment we needed. It goes a long way to selling the “Mad Queen” line, but I’m still not buying. Dany feels isolated and there’s more than a note of desperation. That’s a very long way from insanity or whatever it is Varys is getting at. I will accept it is absolutely a flaw in her personality – she came to Westeros with nothing but sharp elbows, a ship on her shoulder, and no grasp of how to make friends. It’s unclear how she might develop from here, but Tyrion is right to point out that Dany has actual morals, in contrast to Cersei, who never had any. It takes an awful lot to get someone to turn against their own moral character.

      Overall, I thought it was one of the better episodes. Although it was strangely long.

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    111. Hodors Bastard: She didn’t have time to blubber because she had to fight off the guards and escape

      Nah she’s definitely crying for a while. She stops for a little crying after killing the guards, for one

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    112. BranStark:
      Redx,

      I was also thinking, if she has flown her dragons to red keep as soon as she landed, Only people in the castle and Cersei would have died. How is starving a city a better option? Will Cersei Starve? no She will be the last one standing, because Queen and all. So, people have to revolt and create a civil war? When it’s war, what’s the most peaceful way? Will unsullied Sack the city? or will they just attack soldiers and the golden cloaks if Dany orders? I don’t know.. What’s a good way to win War? if the other person is Cersei and she’s hell bent on killing as many people as she can before she dies , just in spite? Will Cersei come to battle field and fight? I don’t think so.. So, there is no cleaver plan unless they assassinate Cersei… Dany is all lose-lose here..

      I was wondering if at the end of the series we’re going to be asking if Dany should have taken Olenna’s advice in S7E2? In Season 2(?) Stannis described the siege of Storms End during Robert’s rebellion being brutal but ultimately unsuccessful. In Season 2, Bronn described what happens to a city during a siege. I’m not sure how a siege by the Northern Alliance would play out against Cersei. I don’t think she’d be sensitive to the suffering of the KL common people, so she’d have a high tolerance for them starving/dying. Also, if she has more Wildfire, she may try to use that on any Alliance fleet (like they did in S2E9). Qyburn presented her strategy of using human shields at the Red Keep in S8E4 as the common people being glad for protection and people seemed to be coming into the Keep willingly, so she may be willing to be performatively benevolent for awhile. Ultimately, I guess it would come down to how strong a hold she has over the GC with regard to using them to tamp down any siege induced rebellion…..

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    113. Rizwan: Seriously, if you are unable to see the huge problems of the last two episodes and the betrayal they done to the overall story of Song of Ice and Fire, then you are totally incapable of critical thinking or you are a new “fan” who only came to GoT for the cool battle scenes.

      A bit blunt, imho. I’m wondering if you have truly analyzed GRRM’s thoughts regarding his tales, during which he often borrows from Faulkner (“The heart in conflict with itself”). Back in 2015, during a discussion with Wimsey and others, I raised the possibility that the end game was not “Life vs Death” but “Life vs Life,” with the many facets of death (as depicted in this tale) as the subtext. Humanity vs the dead is too easy an endgame for GRRM. It has become suddenly obvious that it is better drama to depict a depleted “Life” (after the “Death” match) vs a substantially evil (and more prepared) “Life” as the endgame.

      Still, death lurks in the shadows and Bran may be closer to “death” than we realize (“I live in the past”). Death and the CotF’s revenge may still be in play with the living. After the KL standoff and possible twist, the wall may be rebuilt with him behind it…perhaps Bran the Builder built the wall to protect humanity from himself.

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    114. Nerd Rage

      Not sure collectively that is what is to blame as I am a closet nerd but don’t rage on many things unless I knock over my beer.

      However, in my 39 years, I think about some of the horrible just trashy movies/tv shows that I’ve watched and never in those 39 years did I ever feel compelled to go rate a show on IMDB or RT. I saw maybe 2 mins of Cavemen on ABC and just flipped the channel. Remember Dads or Stalker? They were the dumpster fire quality of TV but I never felt like going out to social media to rate the shows.

      When I watched The Happening I literally just felt like I wasted 2 hrs of my life and moved on. Halfway through Travolta’s Battlefield Earth I just turned it off and went outside.

      So what gives now? Is it millennial crybabies armed with a cell-phone and an agenda?

      All of it is rather perplexing.

      Not that anybody cares but my ratings for this season as follows..lol
      Ep1: 8
      Ep2: 9
      Ep3: 8.5
      Ep4: 7.5

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    115. Bobdole: You never studied sieges in history, have you? From the 1st Punic war to Alexander’swars of conquest to wars of the Spring and Autumn period in ancient China to the 1st Crusades siege of Antioch, the majority of the time, when morale gets low during sieges, there is always someone willing to open the gates for fair compensation.

      The other times, they sally out or just give up. Rarely do people fight to the last man when there are options on the table.

      I honestly don’t know about sieges. If a palace is under siege, then I understand. But siege on a city is going to hit the common folk first because the guards and the royals will still have enough storage to last for some time was what I thought

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    116. @Rizzo T

      Let me fix that for you:
      Ep1: 7
      Ep2: 10
      Ep3: 0
      Ep4: 8

      The only other 0 scorer I can recall is the entire Wight Hunt arc for being so inanely stupid I just couldn’t. Even Dorne got one point, because if nothing else, I could drool over that water palace and wish I were there.

      Anyway I actually came here with a question. Sansa smugly says to Jaime: “I was hoping I could be there when they finally execute your sister. Now it looks like I won’t get the chance.”

      What does she mean? Does she not rate Dany’s chances? Does that mean she isn’t concerned that Jon’s in big trouble too? I’ve been scratching my head and I just don’t get this. Sansa should not be happy that Cersei is winning anything, ever. And why taunt Jaime anyhow? He’s on the Stark side, why give him incentive to start doubting?

      …. I just don’t get it.

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    117. Random thought about Jaime’s move.
      When he says he has to leave because he’s hateful too, and everything he’s done is for Cersei, it got me thinking about all the things Jaime has done for the people he loves.

      For Cersei:
      Lifetime of lying and hiding their relationship
      joins Kingsguard to be near her
      Pushes Bran out window
      Kills his cousin to get home
      Attacks Riverrun against Blackfish he respects with Lannister army and Freys
      Sneaks into Dorne to save daughter
      Sacks Highgarden and offers poison to Olenna

      For Tyrion:
      Attacks Ned and company
      Goes to war
      Offers to leave Kingsguard and marry to save him
      Helps him escape death with Varys

      For Brienne:
      Loses hand while attempting to stop her rape
      Comes back for her and jumps one handed in front of a bear
      Shares his Kingslayer secret
      Gives her his very rare Valyrian steel sword, armor and Pod
      Allows into enemy castle during siege
      Allows escape from castle during attack
      Stares longingly at Tarth
      Asks to serve under her command
      Knights her, against tradition
      Stays close to her in fight where they take turns rescuing each other
      Sleeps with her and decides to stay in Winterfell with her, though he hates the North

      I prefer the things he did for love of Brienne.

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    118. BranStark,

      I always thought Tyrion’s move to starve out the city was dumb. It’s a city, not a castle. The peasants are gonna die from starvation instead of fire – yay, nice save there. Obviously Cersei is going to hoard the food for herself and be the last to die. Whereas if you just burn the Red Keep, she’s hopefully the first to die. Just be a dragon.

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    119. Rizzo T,

      Yes, I think it is a generational thing. Older generations, including Xers did not grow up in a culture where the belief was that your every opinion matter. If you had a strong opinion on something you said it to your inner circle and you’ll be done with it or if you truly wanted to shout it out you needed to find yourself a soap box and be ready to be very publicly ridicule. Newer generations feel the need to share everything and they are not shy about shouting out whatever random thoughts come into their minds because the internet provides them anonymity. There are no real consequences to their arrested development.

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    120. cosca: Nah she’s definitely crying for a while. She stops for a little crying after killing the guards, for one

      Hmm. Got it. There is a secondary kneel down in the scene when she does wail before Cat tells her to GTFO. I’ll take my nerf ball and go back to work now. It’s patently obvious that I completely misunderstood Brienne throughout the entire series. 🙂

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    121. Rizzo T,

      My S8 rating so far:

      Episode 1: A low 9
      Episode 2: A mid-to-high 9
      Episode 3: My favorite episode so far
      Episode 4: Similar to episode 2

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    122. Knight of the Walkers:
      Lord Parramandas,

      There has always been a minority of fans who have wanted the show to fail, and they have done everything they can to make it fail. Unlike episode 3, I genuinely expected the reaction to the last episode to be positive, and was shocked at the reaction. People who moaned about there being too much screen time for Grey Worm and Missandei were suddenly criticising the show as being racist for killing her. That type of hypocrisy is awful.

      To be honest it is no longer fun to talk and read about Game of Thrones online in places like this. That is not the fault of the excellent writers of this site nor D&D. I can think of no ending that will have a positive reaction from this minority of fans. They’ve ruined it, but that was what they always wanted. I mean the glee from some of them at the lower imdb ratings is nauseating. Why do they want the show to fail?

      Sadly, you’re right. I almost don’t even look forward to visit WotW anymore as much as I used to love it. The admins are great and the articles are interesting but the comments… not so much. I almost want to remain in my GoT bubble for the remainign episodes. I can so easily imagine comments of most awful nature how the show “ruined somebody’s life” or how they “wasted 8 years on this show”. Pathetic, really. Maybe not here, but everywhere else for sure.

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    123. D&D can’t win. If something happens that people like, then it’s “fanservice.” If something happens people don’t like, then they are betraying the fans.

      I suppose this is inevitable. I think back to the fan reactions to the final season of “Lost” and the final season (or two) of “Buffy” — both pretty controversial or disappointing in many quarters.

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    124. James Rivers,

      And ironically, “The End” from LOST is one of my favorite episodes of all time. But I still see people literally rage over the internet how they “wasted 6 years of their life” on the show… so immature.

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    125. Emily,

      I disagree on your assessment on Episode 3. It is an insult to ignore the amount of artistic endeavor that went on creating the episode. It is like the work of the actors, camera men, choreographers, audio technicians meant nothing only because you did not care for the writing. But film is a collaborative medium and as such every part should be acknowledge. While I had issues with how the Others’ arch was resolved (and I don’t mean the Arya solution), I still rate the episode as a visual impressive cinematic achievement with a number of memorable scenes. I would say this however, re-watching the episode with the correct brightness made an incredible difference in my level of appreciation.

      But onto your question, Sansa likely meant that Cersei will not be capture alive. There will be no trial for her. Sansa likely surmises that Daenerys will go all Dracarys on her and Sansa being so far from the Red Keep will not be able to witness her demise. For Sansa, the optimal outcome would be Cersei and Daenerys offing each other.

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    126. Emily:
      @Rizzo T

      Anyway I actually came here with a question. Sansa smugly says to Jaime: “I was hoping I could be there when they finally execute your sister. Now it looks like I won’t get the chance.”

      What does she mean? Does she not rate Dany’s chances? Does that mean she isn’t concerned that Jon’s in big trouble too? I’ve been scratching my head and I just don’t get this. Sansa should not be happy that Cersei is winning anything, ever. And why taunt Jaime anyhow? He’s on the Stark side, why give him incentive to start doubting?

      …. I just don’t get it.

      This was a main dafuq? moment for me as well. She said it and then walked off and I was wondering if she was secretly trying to incite him to action or something else.

      Perhaps she thought Dany was just going to nuke the Red Keep now and she wouldn’t be able to witness it until some peon threw it up on Youtube?

      it was odd

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    127. Lord Parramandas: I almost don’t even look forward to visit WotW anymore as much as I used to love it. The admins are great and the articles are interesting but the comments… not so much.

      What I’ve been noticing is that I’m still enjoying comments and discussions from nearly all of the people that spend a lot of time here throughout the ‘offseason.’ Several of us discussed things almost daily for the entire time since S7 for instance. There are also some that have always commented a lot during the season that are enjoyable to discuss things with. It’s great to have new and/or short-timers participate when they actually want to have thoughtful discussions. However, there have been quite a few that have come here seemingly only to rip on everything about the show. That’s not enjoyable and it doesn’t add anything to the site but discord.

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    128. Clob,

      I know for myself that I LOVED this site during the time of S6 (the months before and during the actual season). But when that season wrapped up, the overall positivity and enthusiasm was gone in my eyes. Suddenly. the comments became mostly about criticising the show and the “happy fans” were nowhere to be found. It hasn’t been the same for me since then… and these days, I almost dread to come here as I just find it toxic and not happy site anymore.

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    129. Lord Parramandas: It hasn’t been the same for me since then… and these days, I almost dread to come here as I just find it toxic and not happy site anymore.

      I can’t say that I disagree with your assessment, at least at times. It seems to be similar everywhere. I guess it’s one downside of the show becoming so big.

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    130. Hodors Bastard:

      I actually thought the scene was going well until the rainstorm. Wouldn’t she feel slightly betrayed and used?

      I’m sure she’s feeling quite a lot of things, all for the first time too. She’s extremely vulnerable in this moment. I think the tears stem from her feeling that Jaime will die in KL and she can’t save him. She thinks she’ll never see him again.

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    131. Lord Parramandas,

      In terms of television, LOST is my one true love. I don’t know what shows the future will bring but I doubt I will ever love another show the way I loved LOST in its entirety.

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    132. Clob: I can’t say that I disagree with your assessment, at least at times.It seems to be similar everywhere.I guess it’s one downside of the show becoming so big.

      I almost feel like an outsider now for loving the show. I used to be so thrilled writing my reviews, filling them with enthusiasm and everything… now I almost feel uncomfortable writing them anymore.

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    133. Clob,

      I post a Theory and try to have a discussion about it… You shoot it down… so predictable… and say “I can’t let it go” when I am trying to have a discussion. I don’t care what you think… never have never will. If I can get you to keep responding to my post telling me how wrong I am and then I am right… all the better. We’ll see if my theory is right next Sunday when the golden company kidnaps Sansa,, burns Winterfell to the ground and that girl who talked to Davos and held Lord Varys hand in the Winterfell Crypt survives the fire and is unburnt.

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    134. FromReddit:
      The guy was talking about “compromising” with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters.

      Seven years. Not twenty.

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    135. Lord Parramandas: I know for myself that I LOVED this site during the time of S6 (the months before and during the actual season). But when that season wrapped up, the overall positivity and enthusiasm was gone in my eyes.

      I guess I don’t really recall noticing during that period. I was pumped after S6, right after two of my favorite episodes of the series! Winterfell was won back, Arya took care of some business, Daenerys conquered the masters and finally set sail, Cersei went batshit nuts on High Sparrow and everyone… I was so excited for S7! I’m one of the few reader-first people I think that actually consider S6 their favorite.

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    136. The Bastard:
      And for the multiple people complaining about Sansa and Arya’s reaction to Jon not being shown….

      This was the 4th time the same story was told in the show. It gets redundant. Hence why the reaction wasn’t shown. That is basic story telling. Not some grand conspiracy of the characters.

      It is not the wat that Bran tells them that I am interested in. I am interested in the questions they ask him after they come to grips with their initial shock. This would tell me a lot about them and their state of mind. I would be very interested also in Jons facial expressions as he tries to read the ramifications of their questions. Just basic cause and effect stuff, but vital info if you’re looking to piece things together.

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    137. firstone: I post a Theory and try to have a discussion about it… You shoot it down… so predictable… and say “I can’t let it go” when I am trying to have a discussion. I don’t care what you think… never have never will. If I can get you to keep responding to my post telling me how wrong I am and then I am right… all the better.

      Geez…. Sorry, I didn’t think you were THAT serious about it! :/
      I felt like I WAS participating in a discussion with you about it. My part of the discussion was simply trying to figure out how the timeline was even possible, not as a straight out “predictable” shooting it down. How does one discuss that girl being Jon & Ygritte’s daughter without first looking at how it’s even a possibility?? I looked at it and came back with a response that it really isn’t. Simple as that.

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    138. Lord Parramandas,

      That’s not just this site and fandom though. Every fandom i see, it’s all about criticizing, discourse about this and that, people that just care about ships or certain characters and not about the overall story,creators are insulted, shipping is treated like some Kind of Religion and everything gets overanalyzed. You almost have to apologize if you’re only in fandom to have fun.

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    139. QueenofThrones,

      I’m guessing you’re a hardcore Dany-fan. Everything is the fault of somebody else instead of her.

      If Dany would have stayed in Esssos, her whole army would have been better off. I know this is a argument of nothing, what I try to say is, it’s not anybody’s fault, except for Cersei (And maybe them all including Dany for underestimate Cersei, the only one who is smart this season is Sansa which is very ironic how the show started, she would have seen this ambush coming for a mile away because she knows how much of a cunt Cersei is)

      Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      I think it needed one of the 2 options:
      1. 10 minutes for every episode more. Or 2. 1 episode more. which they could even lower the runtime of each episode.

      The Bastard,

      True, first build up, then the explosion that moves from one place to another. Only the last episode of a show should be slow paced again, by giving everything a proper goodbye.

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    140. Clob: What I’ve been noticing is that I’m still enjoying comments and discussions from nearly all of the people that spend a lot of time here throughout the ‘offseason.’Several of us discussed things almost daily for the entire time since S7 for instance.There are also some that have always commented a lot during the season that are enjoyable to discuss things with.It’s great to have new and/or short-timers participate when they actually want to have thoughtful discussions.However, there have been quite a few that have come here seemingly only to rip on everything about the show.That’s not enjoyable and it doesn’t add anything to the site but discord.

      I’ve noticed this 🙁 names that I am seeing for the first time this in-season frequently complaining. I love this community and it kept me going through the especially long night that was the season 8 off season. I’ve only been here since season 5, but I’ve never looked back since I started reading and posting. It’s a shame that there are more negative postings now than there have been in the past (beyond critical of the parts of the episodes they didn’t like – as in just full on negative about everything they are seeing), but there are enough positive wonderful people to keep this a great place to chat about GOT and ASOIAF.

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    141. Emily:
      @Rizzo T

      Let me fix that for you:
      Ep1: 7
      Ep2: 10
      Ep3: 0
      Ep4: 8

      The only other 0 scorer I can recall is the entire Wight Hunt arc for being so inanely stupid I just couldn’t. Even Dorne got one point, because if nothing else, I could drool over that water palace and wish I were there.

      Anyway I actually came here with a question. Sansa smugly says to Jaime: “I was hoping I could be there when they finally execute your sister. Now it looks like I won’t get the chance.”

      What does she mean? Does she not rate Dany’s chances? Does that mean she isn’t concerned that Jon’s in big trouble too? I’ve been scratching my head and I just don’t get this. Sansa should not be happy that Cersei is winning anything, ever. And why taunt Jaime anyhow? He’s on the Stark side, why give him incentive to start doubting?

      …. I just don’t get it.

      She thinks that Cersei will lose quickly, and that she won’t have time to get down there to see it. It seems contradictory, given Cersei’s triumph, but I think Sansa knows that Dany will go apeshit on KL. I thought it was quite mean, she knows that Brienne cares for Jaime, and she says that in front of her?

      That was obviously done to force Jaime to choose, but it was odd.

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    142. QueenofThrones,

      If you think Varys is the one wanting war you clearly don’t understand his character. What he wants is peace for the common people, the small folk, the poorest of them all. He doesn’t care if the high lords should swallow their pride and live miserable because they couldn’t overcome some feeling of vengeance or something.

      For him it doesn’t matter who sits on the throne as long as it results in one thing: Peace for the common folk.

      He followed Dany season by season. What made him change his mind is the way Dany acted last episode and made clear that she didn’t have a problem with 10.000 innocence dying as long as it results in one thing: her revenge.

      Tell me who is really wrong her, the one having no problems by killing 10.000 people because of her revenge, those 10.000 people who had nothing to do with the act of Rheagal dying or Missandei dying. Or the one trying to stop those deaths from happening and going after that person?

      Do you think somebody like Dany (even when she is good at heart and saved people) has the right to decide that 10.000 innocent people should die for her revenge? Or that she should swallow her revenge so those 10.000 could live? I think even you as a Dany fan should know that they could come up with a much much better plan.

      And Dany shouldn’t fall for Cersei’s trap. Cersei’s trap is not to kill Dany, she could have done that already, Euron could easily have slaughtered whole dragonstone and Dany and Drogon. Even at the end she could just point every scorpion to Drogon and our heroes and be done with it.
      Cersei wants to torture Dany. The torture is, letting go of the iron throne and let Cersei sit there. Or take Cersei down and be hated by the people and be cast down by the people. Cercei doesn’t care if she will die, she care that Dany will live and suffer.

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    143. the unburdened,

      I also felt cheated on that scene because I was so looking forward to seeing Arya’s reaction, more than Sansa’s. Jon was always the closest sibling relation Arya had, when she felt ostracized or left out she always ran to Jon for comfort. She always saw herself in Jon. I always expected her to shrugged the information aside because in her heart Jon was still her brother – but I would still have liked to see what they thought about the fact that Ned was able to pull something like that off. And I wonder what Sansa would have thought right after learning that the bastard brother she mostly ignored or took for granted was a prince/king in hiding. Completely ironic that young Sansa dreamed of chivalrous princes and knights and she never truly appreciated the one living with her.

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    144. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I agree fully with you, I rather had 2 smaller battles with the the NK of 20 minutes each then one big and other storylines get less time.

      But even that I think season 8 is amazing, for me it ranks second now. But I think people would have wanted it to be the best of all outranking the second by at least 200%

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Agree fully, Dany wasn’t really in my top of favorite characters. And now she is in my top. She become one of the most intrigued and fleshed out characters of the show. The beauty is for me I understand the reasoning behind Sansa, Tyrion, Varys etc how they react to Dany and trying to do, but at the same time I feel sorry that it is going to happen. Dany does not deserve this. It’s like pushing a cat to the corner of the room and then being mad that that cat sliced open your face with its claws. And that’s the GoT I like, the one where you understand both sides and the fans are conflicted which side they should choose, and no matter what, they are 50% wrong when they choose that side.

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    145. Danny: I wonder what Sansa would have thought right after learning that the bastard brother she mostly ignored or took for granted was a prince/king in hiding.

      Yeah, I keep wondering how she truly feels about it. She haaaates Daenerys and hated her or at least didn’t trust her before they even met simply because she’s Targaryen. She (and others) pointed out several times how Targaryens can’t be trusted and are basically awful people. Now she’s told that Jon is Aegon Targaryen, albeit with Stark blood. Does that change her feelings about him? Sure, he wasn’t raised by Targaryen parents in the Red Keep, but then neither was Daenerys. Eh, I suppose none of that will be addressed deeply.

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    146. Rizwan,

      Maybe you’re right, so please tell us what they should have done instead? And at the same time tell me how they are going to pay that.

      And second question: How could you know that the story was always about the white walkers in the end? Do you have a copy of WoW and DoS lying at your home? Explain to us how those books end so we know D&D were wrong and the books end with the white walkers?

      Or maybe we should held this in between, maybe the books end with the WW maybe it’s not and it will go the route of the show is taking now. So I don’t understand why you are high and mighty thinking your version of the books is the right way (which is high likely you’re wrong 50% you’re right 50% you’re wrong)

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    147. Okay, I finally watched the episode, rather apprehensive because of what seems to be dreadful reception.

      I can only say this: I must be living in a parallel universe. This was a magnificent character episode on all fronts, absolutely breathtaking. I have to agree with fellow poster Tyrion Pimpslap who thinks this mind-boggling negativity is a result of not having books to compare to and that a hypothetical show-only Red Wedding would be lambasted endlessly from all corners.

      I am also surprised by criticisms that the plot moves at breakneck speed and that characters don’t have room to breathe. Every plot point thus far this season has been clearly and carefully set-up. Out of four episodes, Eps 1, 2, and 4 (up to last 20 minutes) were entirely dominated by well-written and impactful character scenes. Especially 2 and 4: I can safely say that these two are easily TOP 10 episodes for me, brimming with emotional stuff that comes from established character truths. This season reminds me, in all good ways, of Season 1 — particularly of that season’s second half — with its fast-paced concentrated plot movements grounded in excellent character work.

      As far as I am concerned, Season 8 so far has been a triumph of both storytelling and character. If they stick the landing, a definite contender for the best season.

      I have to admit though that I am a bit saddened by all the negativity, even from people I usually agree with. Maybe I am blinded by my biases and am missing something? Or maybe parts of this fandom are missing out on some really great TV without even knowing it? Whatever it may be, I don’t think this show and D&D deserve such treatment. Peace! ☺

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    148. Firannion,

      As stated in the script of 7×07. He is in love with Dany. He know Varys is right (his mind) but his heart say something else. The conflict between the heart and mind. Which I’m having at the same time as a fan. My brain says Jon should be king, Dany should fall. My heart say’s I don’t want to lose Dany and she does not deserve this.

      And I want to praise Emilia Clarke, which I think is the MVP of the season. In the past I though she didn’t deserve a nomination because there were better acted scenes. This season I say, she should win that damn Emmy.

      BranStark,

      I think nobody can blame Dany for losing her shit. She came to Westeros as the savior of westeros. (Which as I stated she was, she was needed in the long night without her westeros would have been deadmansland). She lost so much in short time. I think even she is thinking, why did I ever left Mereen.

      There’s only 1 thing I don’t agree with. There’s a difference with killing an army who is at that moment trying to kill your people with Wildfyre. Or killing somebody who is unarmed at the moment and not a treat.

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    149. QueenofThrones,

      Varys’s commitment to the realm (the equivalent of, say, a Constitution) as opposed to adhering to a cult of personality, is refreshing. Particularly during this current period of our history, where would-be authoritarians are defying democratic norms.

      But it’s not surprising that in a day and age when people like Trump and Bolsonaro are voted into office, and people pine for autocracy, that some GoT viewers would pine for the same thing in this show, and deride the characters who refuse to enable it.

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    150. kevin1989:
      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Agree fully, Dany wasn’t really in my top of favorite characters. And now she is in my top. She become one of the most intrigued and fleshed out characters of the show. The beauty is for me I understand the reasoning behind Sansa, Tyrion, Varys etc how they react to Dany and trying to do, but at the same time I feel sorry that it is going to happen. Dany does not deserve this. It’s like pushing a cat to the corner of the room and then being mad that that cat sliced open your face with its claws. And that’s the GoT I like, the one where you understand both sides and the fans are conflicted which side they should choose, and no matter what, they are 50% wrong when they choose that side.

      So true. I love your cat comparison.

      What does it say about me that I love being conflicted? Which I guess is why I love GOT so much. 🙂

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    151. The Bastard,

      You’re right if they showed that story again I would have screamed to my screen:
      https://imgur.com/gallery/OywD6gX

      I think they tried to include the after emotion but I think it would have felt out of place to have a scene of 10 seconds after the cut.

      And maybe it is a directors cut, and it will maybe be available for a deleted scene.

      mau: Sepinwall

      True, many people saw this twist even back in season 1, so it’s not out of the blue. The beauty of the writing is that they throw in the freeing slaves storyline, which made it even more interesting. How to turn a savior into a unstoppable maniac (Don’t really know the right word that I’m trying to find because Dany is not a maniac but I hope people understand what I try to say). And I have to say, I understand Dany completely. The starks really did a number on her.

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    152. This episode was the first to ever make me question whether or not D&D can land this plane. I am hoping it was just a misstep and things are back on track for the final 2. I have to think that there was more to last episode than to use beloved characters (Brienne, Rhaegal and Missandei) to further our ire at Cersei and Euron and get on Dany’s side for the final battle. Oh, you didn’t want even one mad queen? Here, have 2.

      I have always trusted D&Ds love of the story themselves to get us over any awkward storytelling humps but now I’m not so sure. D&D have a huge problem with 2 things – killing big characters since end of season 5, unless it was something dictated by GRRM (Shireen, Hodor,etc.) and relying too much on fan-service to get the big cheer (Arya killing the Freys, nearly everything that’s happened this season).

      I’ve never even strongly disliked an episode before this one. Not Unx3, not Beyond the Wall, none of the previous contentious eps. It truly bums me out to feel this way right now and I can only hope they right the ship with this weekend’s ep.

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    153. The Bastard,

      Westworld is a master piece. Can’t wait where season 3 is heading. Brilliant show.

      But that is many times the case with TV and movies, I don’t understand it, it’s not stated in simple words. What a bad show. It’s easier to criticize something you don’t understand instead of admitting you don’t understand the brilliance of the story.

      Che,

      But Arya has the feeling that she is a master in the game of faces, meaning that if she doesn’t trust somebody, she automatically think she is right and the other is not to be trusted.

      I think there is a chance (maybe a very small one) that Arya will act on it to protect her brother, and don’t forget once arya arived (it was stated that Jon would arrived 2 weeks later than Dany) next episode there is a chance that Dany has showed her Dracarys on kings landing.

      And what if Varys will push Arya to it. I can see it happen:
      – Varys: I know you saw it too, you had your doubts with you’re sister. And I’m telling you are right. She is unhinged and should be stopped so you’re brother could sit on the throne and protect the north.

      That could push Sansa too it.

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    154. Dee Stark:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Its way worse outside WoTW!!

      I know and I honestly try to stay away from anything GoT related. Even in our LFU community (which is actually about LOST), we admins had to make a controlled weekly GoT post because it was madness to the point that non-GoT and GoT watchers started to complain… and I read so many awful comments there. Even one of my FB friends (also from LFU) keeps ranting all the time on her profile how terrible the show is (she’s a book reader though) to the point I actually set to hide her posts in my feed. It’s just awful. At the end of the day, WotW is still the most decent, at least Unsullied thread.

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    155. Laura:
      D&D have a huge problem with 2 things – killing big characters since end of season 5, unless it was something dictated by GRRM (Shireen, Hodor,etc.)…

      I find this a confusing viewpoint. The big characters have set end points in their stories. GRRM is the one who set them and according to both he and D&D, the main characters’ stories will end the same way in the show as they will in the books. So unless you think GRRM is lying or mistaken, then D&D can’t kill off big characters as they are needed for their respective endgames.

      Cersei’s endgame is the most likely one to be different in the books as it is unlikely she will be the final villain, but given that she has assumed much of Young Griff’s presumed role as the fake monarch figure to thwart Dany and Jon, there’s not much they could do about that so late in the game.

      Who do you think will be dead in the books at this point? Who could they have killed off without it affecting the very fabric of the story GRRM and D&D are telling?

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    156. Lord Parramandas,

      One of the few times I really think Imdb missed the shark (most of the time it’s max 1,0 points difference with me)

      Episode 4 is my favorite season 8 episode. and in top 15 overall (if I remember my top 71) and season 8 ended on being my second favorite season) I wonder if I post my top71 with my ratings now or later when I rewatched episode 4)

      Renly’s Peach: So true.I love your cat comparison.

      What does it say about me that I love being conflicted?Which I guess is why I love GOT so much.🙂

      I love shows where you are conflicted, that’s why Breaking Bad is my favorite. Walter white become one of the most evil man on the show but still I loved his character.

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    157. firstone,

      I’m around 90% Sansa will be kidnapped. Bronn is still in the vicinity, we may not need the entire GC to make that happen. Cersei definitely wants Sansa to suffer.

      Not sure about the little girl. It looked like the scars were from a burn.

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    158. Laura,

      Can you definitely prove it to be fan service? Are you one of the lucky few that have read the Winds of Winter and a Dream of Spring which as far as everyone knows are not finished? How can you know for certain that the main characters that are still alive will not be alive for the final showdown in the books? What if Jon is meant to kill Dany? How will he had done that had he died in the Battle of Winterfell? Same with Jamie and his own “mad” queen? And should the show runners kill everyone else if the main characters remain alive for the final showdown. If that happens, Westeros is left with no one recognizable after all is said and done.

      And very unlikely that the showrunners decided to kill Rhaegal and Missandei just so that fans could hate Cersei even more and side with Daenerys. They did it because in a war, 1) it is only natural that Cersei would try to retire her enemy’s main weapons if able to, before having to face them and 2) Cersei is obviously trying to goad Daenerys into attacking the Red Keep, killing in the process tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Which may get Cersei killed (or not, she’s sneaky enough that she could make her escape if needed. ) but it would also assure that Dany never gets the Iron Throne/never gets to rule the Kingdoms.

      The showrunners are not going for fan service – they are going for a tragedy of epic proportions.

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    159. Lord Parramandas: I know and I honestly try to stay away from anything GoT related. Even in our LFU community (which is actually about LOST)

      Yep, it’s not limited to GoT sites at all. I was just curious about any updates on The Witcher series so was reading on netflixwitcher reddit. Of course with that show being in the genre it is expected to have some chat about GoT. Some of the comments I read were basically about not making the mistakes on TW that they are with GoT. It’s “interesting” how everyone wanted “the next GoT” that can be as great and popular to now after a couple of episodes completely turning backs on it and considering it garbage. *shrug*

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    160. Che,

      And I don’t understand the complain about the deads in episode 3. GoT never killed a major character in battle.
      Blackwater: No major character killed. Davos returned in season 3.
      Watchers on the wall: No major character killed only tertiary characters.
      Hardhome: Same only tertiary characters killed.
      Battle of the bastards: Rickon wasn’t a main character, maybe secondary but I wouldn’t rate him that. He was important for the main characters. Same as Ramsay, he was a secondary character of the show.
      Spoils of war: No major death
      Beyond the wall: No major death
      The Long night: depends, is Theon and Jorah a major character, I would say more important than those who died in the previously battles.

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    161. Clob,

      Yes, really… anyone who suddenly completely turn their back on the show after supposedly being a “hardcore fan” before, I can’t take them seriously. It was and still is the same with LOST… whenever me and other admins recruit people into our community from official LOST page, I come across sooo many ridiculous comments when people actually act angry and say how they “wasted 6 years of life”. I imagine it will be very much the same with GoT when it ends.

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    162. Lord Parramandas,

      Even if the end of GoT will suck I will always think of an old saying:
      “It’s not the ending that counts, but the journey that leads to it.”

      A great ending is just a bonus on you’re journey.

      Joseph Mobile,

      True, but that will not happen in a battle fashion those deads, but more like a red wedding version. With less characters, more based on drama than action.

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    163. It’s enough about episode 4, what about the trailer for episode 5? It does not look like anyone got mad, only Euron got scared by something.

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    164. kevin1989:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Even if the end of GoT will suck I will always think of an old saying:
      “It’s not the ending that counts, but the journey that leads to it.”

      A great ending is just a bonus on you’re journey.

      Joseph Mobile,

      True, but that will not happen in a battle fashion those deads, but more like a red wedding version. With less characters, more based on drama than action.

      I know that in my case, GoT ending can only span from “very good” (which are my lowest ranked episodes) to “amazing”. There’s no “The ending s*cks” regarding my favorite TV shows.

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    165. RG,

      Nice list, thanks for compiling it. I did not do a series re-watch prior to this final season so certain details are foggy and this helps. Jamie’s arc has grown on me and I am anxious to see just what he ends up doing at KL, assuming he makes it there!. Thanks again!

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    166. I think episode 5 may see the worst of Dany, unfortunately. She’s threatened to burn KL to the ground (as has Cersei) and I can see it happening. I can see that being very bitter.

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    167. Lord Parramandas,

      It’s really saddening to see people get so negative about the show that they let those feelings manifest as hostility towards fans who are still enjoying watching. It’s so pointless and cruel and counterproductive and I’ve run into so much of it. Being called a simpleton and worse names for saying I personally am able to overlook some of the logical consistencies in the recent episodes (while still acknowledging their existence) has made interacting with the fan base a tiresome affair and it bums me out. There’s this weird gatekeeping mentality as the groupthink negativity makes people so quick to denounce anyone who isn’t being negative in fandom spaces and embrace hyperbole calling this season the worst tv ever made, and I’m just here trying to see where the characters I love end up.

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    168. Frank:
      It’s enough about episode 4, what about the trailer for episode 5? It does not look like anyone got mad, only Euron got scared by something.

      Really? What about that shot of Dany sitting in her Dragonstone throne, alone and in pitch darkness…that can’t bode well…

      I’m convinced that episode 4 is a setup for Mad Dany and for Jon to ultimately kill her for “the good of the realm.” Dany fans won’t be pleased and will scream to High Heaven. I can imagine what the reaction is going to be…This is something George would absolutely do, BTW, set up a character in a “Heroes Journey “ only to reveal them as a “Villain”

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    169. George: Really? What about that shot of Dany sitting in her Dragonstone throne, alone and in pitch darkness…that can’t bode well…

      I’m convinced that episode 4 is a setup for Mad Dany and for Jon to ultimately kill her for “the good of the realm.” Dany fans won’t be pleased and will scream to High Heaven. I can imagine what the reaction is going to be…This is something George would absolutely do, BTW, set up a character in a “Heroes Journey “ only to reveal them as a “Villain”

      I’m not convinced we will have a ‘mad’ Dany yet BUT if it does happen, there is no way Jon could kill her. Much more likely is that he ends up dead because of her.

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    170. George,

      Yeah, that shot on the throne in Dragonstone does seem ominous. I really hope it doesn’t end with Jon having to kill Dany. That would be tragic.

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    171. Ghostgirl:
      I think episode 5 may see the worst of Dany, unfortunately. She’s threatened to burn KL to the ground (as has Cersei) and I can see it happening. I can see that being very bitter.

      I think she may pull it back. Maybe it’s wishful thinking. Dany is not my favourite character, but I do like her. Sometimes I love her and other times she really irritates me. I don’t want to see her go ‘mad’, but I won’t freak out if they go that route. Right now I think she is justifiably incensed; what she does with that rage we will see next episode and whether that crosses the boundary into ‘madness’. One thing of note though; last week, Emilia was absolutely beaming about episode 5. She is, as I’m sure they all are, very invested in Dany. Would she be so hyped and genuinely happy about an episode where Dany goes mad queen on everyone and burns innocents? I don’t think she would.

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    172. Che,

      I don’t think Jon could kill her unless she did something beyond terrible. I hope he doesn’t die because she is jealous though, as his parentage is revealed. That would suck too. I’m convinced one of them will die but keep flitting between which one.

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    173. Che,

      One thing of note though; last week, Emilia was absolutely beaming about episode 5. She is, as I’m sure they all are, very invested in Dany. Would she be so hyped and genuinely happy about an episode where Dany goes mad queen on everyone and burns innocents? I don’t think she would.

      Lets hope so! I think it will be a BIG Dany episode.

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    174. Lord Parramandas: I know and I honestly try to stay away from anything GoT related. Even in our LFU community (which is actually about LOST), we admins had to make a controlled weekly GoT post because it was madness to the point that non-GoT and GoT watchers started to complain… and I read so many awful comments there. Even one of my FB friends (also from LFU) keeps ranting all the time on her profile how terrible the show is (she’s a book reader though) to the point I actually set to hide her posts in my feed. It’s just awful. At the end of the day, WotW is still the most decent, at least Unsullied thread.

      What’s this LFU community you speak of? Can someone get into it if they have the box set with the “New Man in Charge” DVD included and the “Lost Encyclopedia” oh and also the book “Lost Ate My Life”?

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    175. Lord Parramandas,

      The concept of “wasting your life” on a piece of media you were enthralled enough with to watch and enjoy for 6 years (or 8 years for GoT) is so ridiculous. I have loved this show and its 3-dimensional characters whose arcs have grown so naturally over the course of 8 seasons. I wouldn’t take back the time I spent watching it for the world. If anything people are wasting their time by spouting negativity on the internet.

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    176. James Rivers: What’s this LFU community you speak of? Can someone get into it if they have the box set with the “New Man in Charge” DVD included and the “Lost Encyclopedia” oh and also the book “Lost Ate My Life”?

      LFU is our LOST-themed Facebook group LOST FANS UNITE! We’re an active LOST community counting over 13k members at the moment. I’m one of the admins there. As I like to say on my recruiting posts, “we aim to keep the show alive and in good memory”.

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    177. I was disappointed with this episode, Especially how they handled things between Jon and Daenerys. Her insistence that Jon should hide who he is is so out of character for her. She is stern and has a strong sense of destiny, yes, but is usually very direct and straightforward with people. Scheming, lying and playing games is not her. I didn’t buy it. That was so beneath her. And she even told him she loved him! And after such an outrageous request, Jon reaffirms his fealty to her -spineless and unbelievable. Are they repeating history with Daenerys being the Mad Queen like her father and Jon being her Rhaella?

      They dealt Daenerys so many blows in this episode that I am fully behind Missandei’s words to burn them all, lol!

      This episode was the breaking point for me. The last two I will watch with next to no expectation to get the satisfying ending.

      IDK, I could expect anything from the show from now on: Daenerys killing Jon, Jon killing Daenerys, Cersei defeating them and Sansa congratulating her and getting her precious Northern independence in return.

      I fear the show is heading towards a dark, bitter and hopeless conclusion. I hope I ‘m wrong. I know this is the site for fans and that I should probably be somewhere else venting my fury, but I consider(ed) myself a fan and this episode just hit me hard.

      End of rant!

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    178. This is not episode-related but about 2 years ago, I recorded myself playing “The Rains of Castamere” on piano if anyone is interested. So far the only GoT related soundtrack I learned. Please take note that I’m an amateur when it comes to piano playing.

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    179. Young Iain Glen: The concept of “wasting your life” on a piece of media you were enthralled enough with to watch and enjoy for 6 years (or 8 years for GoT) is so ridiculous.

      Relating to this in the way of years of one’s life and watching this show… (and LOST) I’ve spoken with many non-watcher acquaintances during the series run and have gotten several to eventually watch it and the rest usually say they will eventually. There is one guy though at my usual bar that refuses to watch it. I lent my box sets to his friend three weeks ago and he and his girlfriend finished all seven season by this past Sunday. Loved it!! The two of us tried again last night to get him to start watching it. He doesn’t have a reason not to other than he’s tired of hearing about it and is being stubborn. He is a HUGE fan of LOST and says it’s his favorite show ever. My final piece of advise was that he shouldn’t watch GoT because people tell him it’s the best show ever or it will become his favorite show. He should watch it because it’s ‘one of’ the best shows ever made, whether it’s in his personal top 5, 10 or 20. If he lives 80 years or more he’ll see hundreds or thousands of shows so why not watch one of the best shows available just because he’s stubborn.?

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    180. Oh… I just remembered a minor thing from the episode that I wanted to comment on…
      When Daenerys & Drogon were diving at Euron’s ship that was one hellaciously epic scream that Daenerys let out!! You could even hear her when the shot cut down to Euron! I bet Emilia loved doing that, although she might have had a sore throat for a while afterward. 🙂

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    181. RG,

      Thank you. I truly appreciate your response here.

      I honestly think Brienne should hole up in her little lonely cottage and cry her eyes out for a week after all she has been through. But she would never do that.

      She’s always been a knight. I hope she survives.

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    182. onefromaway,

      You’re welcome 🙂 So much happens to these guys its easy to forget. And I obsess just a little bit lol

      StellaK,

      Same

      ShameShameShame:
      firstone,

      I’m around 90% Sansa will be kidnapped.Bronn is still in the vicinity, we may not need the entire GC to make that happen.Cersei definitely wants Sansa to suffer.

      Yeah. An attack/kidnapping is the most logical way to get all the main players into the end game, since Bran, Sansa, Sam, Brienne and Pod are all still at Winterfell. Not sure if Tormund has already left or not.

      But what that would prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt is there is a weak link. Cersei doesn’t have a Bran to tell her exactly when to hit these people. Someone has to be giving her intel. I don’t want to think about who.

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    183. Danny: I disagree on your assessment on Episode 3. It is an insult to ignore the amount of artistic endeavor that went on creating the episode. It is like the work of the actors, camera men, choreographers, audio technicians meant nothing only because you did not care for the writing.

      I understand what you are saying there. For the record, I can’t fault the actors, all of whom were doing the absolute best with what they were given. I also thought that the arrival of Mel and the charge of the Dothraki was visually stunning and a fantastic use of darkness on film.

      That’s pretty much where the episode ended for me though, because as you implied, I couldn’t actually see most of the action. Not that there was any true “action,” because all the episode did was fake us out with zombies crawling on people, cutting away, and then the zombies being suddenly gone. I mean, it’s my intelligence being insulted here when they absolutely left Sam in a situation he couldn’t survive, except then we cut back and he magically did make it. x20 and that’s the whole episode.

      It was a dark confused mess, and no, not in an intentional or good way. It had multiple problems that should not have passed a screen test audience.

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    184. Jenny: She thinks that Cersei will lose quickly, and that she won’t have time to get down there to see it. It seems contradictory, given Cersei’s triumph, but I think Sansa knows that Dany will go apeshit on KL. I thought it was quite mean, she knows that Brienne cares for Jaime, and she says that in front of her?

      That was obviously done to force Jaime to choose, but it was odd.

      Thanks for the response. I guess the most logical answer is indeed that Sansa just really wants Jaime out of Winterfell. Which does show a meanness to her character that I wasn’t expecting. Jaime fought for the realms of men and is Brienne’s guest… It’s like Catelyn sniping at Jon Snow, so I guess she picked up that mean streak from Mum.

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    185. Emily,

      Cat, LF, Cersei…she’s picked up a lot from all of them. But honestly, I was surprised that she’d let him stay at all after the battle, since he’s a Lannister and Cersei’s twin.

      I’m sad that fighting for her life against dead Starks in the crypt hasn’t changed her perspective on anything. You’d think if something was going to do it, that would be it.
      But after her family meeting, chat with Tyrion and the way she looked at Dany? Not so much.

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    186. RG:
      Emily,

      Cat, LF, Cersei…she’s picked up a lot from all of them. But honestly, I was surprised that she’d let him stay at all after the battle, since he’s a Lannister and Cersei’s twin.

      I’m sad that fighting for her life against dead Starks in the crypt hasn’t changed her perspective on anything. You’d think if something was going to do it, that would be it.
      But after her family meeting, chat with Tyrion and the way she looked at Dany? Not so much.

      I hated her saying that to Jaime in front of Brienne (or at all, for that matter). Brienne has been nothing but faithful to her, can’t she have something nice for once? If Sansa’s entire journey ends up with her just being another Cersei, it’ll be such a lost opportunity.

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    187. Emily: Jaime fought for the realms of men and is Brienne’s guest… It’s like Catelyn sniping at Jon Snow, so I guess she picked up that mean streak from Mum.

      A girl lacks honor, IMO. Yes, most of the time I like Sansa about as much as I liked Cat, which isn’t much. That’s okay though, Jaime will kill Cersei, everyone will love him for it, and he will be crowned king with Brienne as his queen. Sansa can stay in the chilly north with her chilly demeanor and do what she does best. Scowl. And sew. The End.

      A girl can dream.

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    188. A friend of mine posted this on FB, and I thought it was too funny to not share, especially with a lot of the toxic commentary coming from certain parts of the fandom:

      The internet watches Game of Thrones

      Magic lady births a shadow creature using the blood of royalty: “Neat!”
      Undead dragon with holes in its wings flies just as well as whole, living dragons: “Spooky!”
      Jon Snow is resurrected with no side effects: “GRRM, you rogue, you had us there!”
      Arya sneaks through a crowd of wights for the clutch save: “YASS KWEEN!”
      The show takes great pains to establish that the dragons are susceptible to basic ranged weapons, including freaking javelins, and also spends several seasons building up the mad scientist’s dragon-killing mega-ballistae. In an ambush a dragon gets killed by said dragon-killing mega-ballistae: “OH MY GOD THE SHOW JUMPED THE STARK. I have now retroactively been hate-watching the show literally only to compile a list of grievances that have been stacking up since we surpassed the infallible books written by our liege GRRM.
      This scene was completely unrealistic. Those ballistae completely failed to take into account wind speed, loss of terminal performance from firing at an upward trajectory, or the complications of firing from a less-stable ship-based mount. A four-armed bolt thrower does not provide enough kinetic energy to perform as depicted. Also, they rotate way too smoothly for medieval technology. COMPLETE BULLSHIT. No, more than that: the entire farm took a dump here. The show writers have completely given up and are just trying to cash a check and put this trainwreck behind them.”

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    189. Renly’s Peach: A girl lacks honor, IMO.Yes, most of the time I like Sansa about as much as I liked Cat, which isn’t much.That’s okay though, Jaime will kill Cersei, everyone will love him for it, and he will be crowned king with Brienne as his queen.Sansa can stay in the chilly north with her chilly demeanor and do what she does best.Scowl.And sew.The End.

      A girl can dream.

      Dreams indeed. Sign me up! Happy to smoke whatever you are smoking!

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    190. Anyone who writes a synopsis based on this

      Caitlin PenzeyMoog, The A.V. Club – In which she dubs it a transitional episode that feels perfunctory, a cursory going through the motions of wrapping up the Battle of Winterfell, and the lining up of somewhat boring logistics to get into the Last War.

      Is not a person who is ‘into’ the show. They are a person who does not even follow the show, given a portfolio and deadline to have it done by and is viewing an episode cold. with the intent (I need to break this down quick, logistics is a good angle for that) sad.

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    191. kevin1989: BranStark

      May be, I also have a tiny hope on Dany. Because I have been a fan like Missendai, with unwavering faith in her. I think she will come back. Dany always shines when she takes matters into her own hands. She might even find a way to not burn king’s landing and win the war.. A man can only hope for his beautiful queen

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    192. Chilli,

      I found a video on Youtube and learned the moves there. I honestly still don’t know how to read sheet notes.

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    193. Tormund is a lovable dude. I enjoy his and Jon’s friendship. I hope Brienne ends up with him now. He would love her much better than Jamie. But I know it won’t happen. I just did a re-watch. Looks like we saw the final farewell between Jon and Sam, but why are they acting like they won’t see each other ever again? I’m a little worried about Arya. After her speech to Jon about her not needing any allies cause she’s got family, and then calling Jon part of that family, only to be told by Bran he’s not as close family member as she thinks he is. Why is she leaving Winterfell for good? She told Hound she doesn’t plan on coming back. Before that she said she doesn’t like heroes.

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    194. Bor Mullet: QueenofThrones

      But Varys supports autocracy. He keeps the never-ending war going by supporting one autocrat after another (jumping ship time and again for a more powerful dictacctor to displace the previous one). That’s why I say he’s not “for the people” in any meaningful way. The people just want to be left alone. His actions ensure that this can’t happen because war never stops.

      If Varys was in favor of actual substantive change to the political system you would ave a point. But he isn’t.

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    195. George: I’m convinced that episode 4 is a setup for Mad Dany and for Jon to ultimately kill her for “the good of the realm.” Dany fans won’t be pleased and will scream to High Heaven. I can imagine what the reaction is going to be…This is something George would absolutely do, BTW, set up a character in a “Heroes Journey “ only to reveal them as a “Villain”

      I’m a fan of Dany and after the last episode I think this will happen. It breaks my heart and I don’t want it to, but I think it will and I don’t protest it as being “bad writing” or “out of character”.

      If you look at the last two seasons, it has been a slow march of taking everything from Dany, one step at a time. Slowly isolating her more and more. People she loves dying one by one. People who support her turning away. Others who should be grateful to her, refusing to show that in a substantive way.

      It could have been different, which is why it is heartbreaking. I’ve cried about Dany every day since I saw this episode. Incredible storytelling.

      I think there’s still a chance that things could take another turn, that Dany could pull back from this – that she’ll remember her humanity and gentle heart before it’s too late. We shall see.

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    196. Smoke the Conqueror:
      QueenofThrones,
      why the hate for Varys? He’s right.

      I explained in a post 2 down from the one you replied to.

      Varys ensures war never ends by continually jumping ship from one brutal dictator to the next. This harms the people.

      If he wants real change in support of the people he should stop supporting monarchs.

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    197. Mr Fixit,

      I’m in agreement with you. I would like to see a poll that compares book readers to show watchers in regards to criticism about this season. I feel lucky in a way to be a show watcher only at this point. I’m not invested in the prophesies and other wonderful details of what must be in the books. I do very much look forward to immersing myself in the books once the show is done.

      I have had my own fan theories over the years to explain what was happening only to be shot down by D&D. One such instance was when Arya was stabbed. I bought into a number of fan theories to what “really” happened, and they were all wrong. I’ve seen a trend that D&D usually go for the non magical route. It turned out that Lady Crane was an amazing surgeon! So, I haven’t been without my criticisms or disappointments over the years. I also get extremely invested in the characters and I don’t want to be jolted out of the GOT world by something that doesn’t seem to fit.

      That being said, I have a hard time criticizing season 8 too strongly at least until it’s over. I need to see the whole story first to get the entire picture of what D&D (and GRRM) had in mind.

      I have some fan theories now that I talked about earlier in this thread based on actor interviews that really gets me excited to see if it actually happens the way I think it might.

      I also appreciate getting to see all the behind the scenes stories. I think this is the first show that I can remember that gave me such a close up view of what goes into making a show like GOT. I am now invested in the actors and crew just as much as the story itself.

      Thanks for your post Mr. Fixit!

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    198. George: Really? What about that shot of Dany sitting in her Dragonstone throne, alone and in pitch darkness…that can’t bode well…

      I’m convinced that episode 4 is a setup for Mad Dany and for Jon to ultimately kill her for “the good of the realm.” Dany fans won’t be pleased and will scream to High Heaven. I can imagine what the reaction is going to be…This is something George would absolutely do, BTW, set up a character in a “Heroes Journey “ only to reveal them as a “Villain”

      I see Dany dying too I’m afraid but I don’t think it will be at Jon’s hands. Maybe Varys?
      Losing Rhaegal and then Missandei is going to push her over the edge. I don’t see that as madness, just rage and vengeance. So many times she has listened to those who want to temper her impulses, now she will ignore them. People can only take so much. And Greyworm will back her, having lost Missandei.
      Missandei’s death would arguably have more of an effect on Greyworm than Dany.

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    199. Che: I think she may pull it back. Maybe it’s wishful thinking. Dany is not my favourite character, but I do like her. Sometimes I love her and other times she really irritates me. I don’t want to see her go ‘mad’, but I won’t freak out if they go that route. Right now I think she is justifiably incensed; what she does with that rage we will see next episode and whether that crosses the boundary into ‘madness’. One thing of note though; last week, Emilia was absolutely beaming about episode 5. She is, as I’m sure they all are, very invested in Dany. Would she be so hyped and genuinely happy about an episode where Dany goes mad queen on everyone and burns innocents? I don’t think she would.

      🙂 Hope youre right.

      I keep seeing this, not just you… but why do people thing Dany is going “mad”. It is just revenge. Like I wonder, if she didn’t have a father nicknamed the “mad king” would we be calling her mad (after seeing episode 4?)

      hmm.

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    200. Laura: D&D have a huge problem with 2 things – killing big characters since end of season 5, unless it was something dictated by GRRM (Shireen, Hodor,etc.) and relying too much on fan-service to get the big cheer (Arya killing the Freys, nearly everything that’s happened this season).

      Omg.. lol

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    201. JamesL,

      This is so true! People are now just hating the show just for the sake of it.
      I can understand people saying it’s lazy writing that Daenerys didn’t see Euron’s fleet from the sky, but I’ve seen a lot of complaining of people saying how they are ruining Dany’s character by turning her into a mad queen.
      Do people honestly believe that that entire storyline is made up by D&D and not coming from George?

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    202. Clob: Yeah, I keep wondering how she truly feels about it.She haaaates Daenerys and hated her or at least didn’t trust her before they even met simply because she’s Targaryen.She (and others) pointed out several times how Targaryens can’t be trusted and are basically awful people….Eh, I suppose none of that will be addressed deeply.

      I think it’s hard for us as an audience, to remember that the characters (i.e. Sansa and Arya), aren’t privy to the same information that we are. We have been able to follow all of the characters on their disparate journeys, which has allowed us to develop an empathy for many of them. We have seen them at their best and their worst.

      I DO think it is completely believeable and in character, that the Starks and the North would be understandably distrustful of Daenerys. From their perspective, their last historical interaction with Targaryens resulted in their liege lord and heir being sadistically and ruthlessly murdered, and a princess of the North being kidnapped and raped (and eventually dying)…all at the hands of Targaryens. These actions also catapulted the region into a series of wars that have taken an huge toll on the North.

      There is also nothing that I recall to indicate that the Starks and Northern leadership have any idea that Daenarys agreed to help fight against the WW threat, BEFORE Jon bent the knee. From their limited perspective, Dany agreed to help save them, only AFTER Jon bent the knee. I could be wrong, but it would seem from what has unfolded on screen, that Jon used his need to secure Dany’s army and dragons, as an excuse/reasoning for giving up the northern independence.

      The same could be said for Sansa’s treatment of Jaime. She has not been a party to any of the redemptive actions he has taken of the course of the show. The last major action of note in which he was involved that she would have been likely aware of, was taking RiverRun away from her Great Uncle the Blackfish, and killing him in the process.

      To me, if would be extremely unrealistic if Sansa and the North, suddenly wanted to be BFF’s with Dany and the Lannisters, given recent history. I suppose that is what makes Jon’s contribution to the Battle of Winterfell, so incredible (and underappreciated). He was able to bridge all of these gaps between factions that hate each other, in service of the greater good.

      I wish the show had budgeted it’s time better, so that there would have been more opportunity to delve more deeply into these issues, and more fully flesh them out.

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    203. QueenofThrones: I explained in a post 2 down from the one you replied to.

      Varys ensures war never ends by continually jumping ship from one brutal dictator to the next.This harms the people.

      If he wants real change in support of the people he should stop supporting monarchs.

      It would have been really interesting to me as a viewer if this type of storyline had been a major plot point. We got brief hints from various characters of looking beyond the prevailing governmental/ economic structure in their world. Dany and her army began the process of abolishing slavery in Slaver’s Bay and even started dealing with the aftermath in Mereen. There was a hint that there may be a structural change in her conversation with Daario in S6E10 when she instructed him to protect the Mereenese while they choose who would lead them, but there wasn’t a deep dive into that process. Varys and Tyrion had several conversations about rulers, but never got to the point of asking the question “should there even be a monarchy in Westeros?” Dany talked about breaking the wheel, but there was limited dialogue on what that process would look like. I think lack of follow up on this potential type of governmental shift had more to do with lack of interest on the author and writers’ part, and that’s their narrative choice, but it ends up being a very prominent hanging thread for me as a viewer.

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    204. krupke: It would have been really interesting to me as a viewer if this type of storyline had been a major plot point.Wegot brief hints from various characters of looking beyond the prevailing governmental/ economic structure in their world.Dany and her army began the process of abolishing slavery in Slaver’s Bay and even started dealing with the aftermath in Mereen.There was a hint that there may be a structural change in her conversation with Daario in S6E10 when she instructed him to protect the Mereenese while they choose who would lead them, but there wasn’t a deep dive into that process. Varys and Tyrion had several conversations about rulers, but never got to the point of asking the question “should there even be a monarchy in Westeros?”Dany talked about breaking the wheel, but there was limited dialogue on what that process would look like.I think lack of follow up on this potential type of governmental shift had more to do with lack of interest on the author and writers’ part, and that’s their narrative choice, but it ends up being a very prominent hanging thread for me as a viewer.

      I think the only path towards a hopeful (the “sweet” in bittersweet) future for Westeros is some movement towards democracy or at least shared rule.

      For that to happen, IMO, we need all of the Targaryens (and Cersei) GONE. I think that will mean Jon and Dany both die. Or, maybe Jon or Dany could live normal lives.

      I think it will be Tyrion and Sansa who will make this happen, probably not all at once but gradually. They wont’ rule as monarchs but will act as the key representatives of a government run as a council of sorts.

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    205. Milutin,

      How is it spineless? Jon is a good dude and a dude that believes in keeping his word. He gave his word to Dany and now he intends to honor it. He’s trying to keep the peace and frankly he is caught in a horrible place emotionally. Maybe finding out Daenerys is family wouldn’t have matter much to him if he didn’t learn to love her prior to learning the truth. But he loves her and Jon is not fickle, when he loves he loves. So he is caught in a position of trying to keep peace between the woman he loves (and still believes in despite the slow creeping doubt) and the only family he has ever known. What Dany asked of him is unreasonable, selfish and self-serving and noticed he did not agree to keep his mouth shut. But Jon has forgiven a lot of injustices done to him over the years, you did not think he would forgive this? I would never called that being spineless. Spineless is someone like Jamie who knows his sister cheated on him repeatedly while he remained faithful and would crawl out of any hole to get back to her. That is my definition of spineless.

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    206. Danny,

      I agree. Jon was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Dany asked him not to reveal it because people would champion him over her. She seems to be right in this, but it’s Jon’s secret and who he really is, so I felt she was unreasonable to ask. If Sansa and Arya found out from Sam or Bran they would feel betrayed and he owed them the truth now that he knows it. I think Jon was damned if he did and damned if he didn’t.

      I was glad he told Sansa and Arya. Sansa seemed rather shaken when Tyrion appraoched her and I do think she told Tyrion to try and protect Jon. It remains to be seen how Jon takes that but Dany will only see it as a betrayal.

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    207. QueenofThrones,

      For that to happen, IMO, we need all of the Targaryens (and Cersei) GONE. I think that will mean Jon and Dany both die. Or, maybe Jon or Dany could live normal lives.

      I agree. I admit to hating Cersei and wanting her dead, but I was hoping for self imposed exile for Jon/Dany. It looks like things will end much more tragically for them though.

      I think it will be Tyrion and Sansa who will make this happen, probably not all at once but gradually. They wont’ rule as monarchs but will act as the key representatives of a government run as a council of sorts.

      I felt like Tyrion and/or Varys would be good transitional leaders but as I said before they didn’t seem particularly interested in actively pursuing a significant structural shift in how Westeros (or even KL) should be ruled. Also in retrospect, some of their advice and interpretation of events in S7 was suspect. Sansa…..I don’t know. I’m quite sure she’ll end up ruling the North as warden or Queen, but I don’t like her trajectory in getting to that place. From her withholding information about the Vale in S6 in the buildup to the BotB, to her openly undermining Jon during meetings in seasons 7 and 8, to her outsized (to me) dislike of Danarys, to her telling Tyrion Jon’s secret after Jon swore her to secrecy, her ascent has been problematic for me. Her becoming Queen or Warden of the North also leads to the same issue I have with there being a monarch of the 7 kingdoms in the first place. It’s too much power centralized under one person.

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    208. Danny,

      I really had a problem in this episode with how they portrayed Daenerys suddenly being at odds with everyone. Her behaviour towards Jon was inexplicably bad and out of character, as I said in my post.

      But his behaviour towards her is also puzzling and it doesn’t appear he loves her. While he had fun with his friends at the feast he left her sitting alone and didn’t try to include her in conversation. Then he suddenly breaks their kiss whan they are alone. She said she loved him. He didn’t. But then again her declaration comes with her request that he hides who he really is. As I said, I am confused with all this and from there comes my biggest problem with this episode.

      I would really like if anyone can provide a satisfying explanation for this: Presumably they love each other. They both have a claim to the throne. Is it so difficult to get to the conclusion that the best way forward is to unite those claims by marriage and present a powerful and united Targaryen front against Cersei? The show is obviously avoiding this route while at the same time not providing enough convincible reasons why it should not be so except hinting that Daenerys is a power hungry madwoman who suddenly forgot why she fell in love with Jon and treats him as threat and Jon being absolutely without initiative and not trying to explain to her why he is suddenly distant (we assume it’s because of the incest thing but it was never spelled out and I personally find that argument not so convincing in the medieval setting of the show where inter-family marriages were not unheard of). And we have all their advisors Davos, Tyrion and Varys not pressing this issue and some of them (Varys) even taking sides and actively stoking the flames of the conflict.

      I may be naive but I really would like to see some sort of stronger bond and trust between the two of them leading to a more hopeful conclusion and I don’t feel the show has done a good job showing us why it shouldn’t be so.

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    209. Milutin,

      Is it so difficult to get to the conclusion that the best way forward is to unite those claims by marriage and present a powerful and united Targaryen front against Cersei?

      There’s a way to get there plot wise from what we’ve been presented in the show so far. I think it’s just that the ultimate outcome the show runners (and possibly author) have planned for them as a couple and as individuals will be tragic. It’s depressing for me b/c I stan them individually and as a couple, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    210. Danny,

      When she said that it didn’t matter if he wanted the throne or not that there always would be people pushing his claim, he could’ ve suggested they rule together. Her argument would not be valid anymore and that would be the moment of truth for Daenerys: is she willing to share power or not? But, unfortunately, no one suggested that quite obvious solution.

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    211. krupke,

      Thank you very much for understanding. I didn’t want to come across as someone just bashing the show. I know this is a fan site and many people here would see my comments as out of place.

      To further explain my point I’m not against a tragic ending per se. Something bad can happen during the war against Cersei even if they did something similar to what I wrote earlier. I just didn’t like that this stage of their relationship was handled out in a way that it seems to me they are not in a relationship anymore.

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    212. Ten Bears:
      BranStark,

      Based on your apt description of Varys acting like a self-entitled Kingmaker and other characters’ actions, they could have titled Episode 4 “Oathbreakers”

      Varys: Preparing to forswear the queen he swore to serve.

      Sansa: Swears to keep a family secret; blurts it out to a blabbermouth ten minutes later.

      Jaime: “I’m an honorable man now; you can trust me.” A fewepisodes later: “I’m a hateful man, and I’m abandoning you.”

      Jon/Ghost: S1e1: “This one’s yours, Snow.”S8e4: “F*ck off Ghost.”

      Sam: “I’d like a pardon for stealing all of these Citadel books that were supposed to be so important to defeating the WWs…..…. Forget it. I never even used them.I’m splitting. My girl’s knocked up.” Arya S7e2: “I’m heading north girl. Back to Winterfell. I’m finally going home.”Arya S8e4: “On second thought, I don’t want to be back in Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”

      I know I missed some….

      Ten Bears I enjoy the heck out you, thank you. And YES Oathbreakers would have been perfect. Sigh……

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    213. The Bastard,

      Milutin:
      Danny,

      When she said that it didn’t matter if he wanted the throne or not that there always would be people pushing his claim, he could’ ve suggested they rule together. Her argument would not be valid anymore and that would be the moment of truth for Daenerys: is she willing to share power or not? But, unfortunately, no one suggested that quite obvious solution.

      I was going to leave this alone however, someone else hasn’t so I’ll kindly remind:
      (I stopped at page 5 of my Google search “GoT S7 EP4 Jon and Dany dialogue in the cave” trying to be able to copy a quote as I can’t recall word for word)
      When Jon requested Dany joins him in a cave on Dragonstone Dany actually stated/hinted strongly that the people of the north will follow/join Danys cause if their King will (just needed to kneel) or, was it just pride.

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    214. viki,

      This is all solid SOLID points. I hope Sansa isn’t turning into a Mad Queen taking out her fellow Starks… Nah… Team Stark for Life, I don’t believe Sansa, Arya or Bran will die, I think those kids are going to make it. I don’t know how, I don’t even know how (more) fucked up they’ll be in 2 episodes time but I think they’ll be there facing whatever decimation is left together in the end. I can see Arya and Sansa ruling fairly well… Oh I don’t know. I know nothing.

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    215. Wow the critics are clearly divided. I just watched Val from because Geek who is generally great and very positive and she even has mixed feelings. I went in with no expectations and enjoyed it myself.

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    216. The Bastard:
      Everybody I have talked to in person has loved all 4 episodes.

      Yet you come online and you would think it is the worst show ever.

      Stay classy nerds. Stay classy!!

      It’s the same for me, the casual fans are loving this season from what I can tell. The hate is coming from differing segments of the more avid fan base, noticeably this week it’s the Dany fans.

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    217. Dee Stark:
      OT: I saw a headline on daily mail website that the ending of the show leaked? Is that true? Is it real?

      Theres not really a spoiler in here but the headline says that

      I saw something on this too Dee, I am avoiding spoilers but have friends that aren’t. If it were true I think they would tell me that ending leaked but they haven’t, nobody else seems to be hinting at it either so most likely it’s bogus.

      Hope you are all set to watch tonight in Korea, think I have found a way to watch here in the USA.

        Quote  Reply

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