The question on everyone’s lips this year in regards to Game of Thrones has been, “Is Jon Snow really dead?” As hard as it’s been for us as fans, imagine how difficult it must be for the cast of the show, who have to field questions from viewers about Jon everywhere they go.
Entertainment Weekly has another video for us, as part of their season 6 special issue coverage, addressing the fate of Jon Snow and how the cast handles that question. In addition to the leading actresses (Sophie Turner, Natalie Dormer, Maisie Williams, Gwendoline Christie, Emilia Clarke, and Lena Headey) featured in the video, EW spoke with several other cast members.
Check it out:
Hodor portrayer Kristian Nairn says, “If I had one dollar for every time I’d been asked that question in the last year, […] I would be a very rich person.”
Meanwhile, our Kingslayer Nikolaj Coster-Waldau seems unbothered by the question. “I say, ‘He’s dead.’ It’s not hard — because he’s dead.”
Liam Cunningham is typically blunt: “I say, ‘Yeah, he’s dead, he’s f–king dead.’ And people get angry about it!”
Alfie Allen is more philosophical in his response to EW, saying, “He lives on — not physically.”
In addition to the video, Lena Headey says, “‘If I told you, I’d have to kill you.’ Or I just laugh.” As she notes in the video, her nanny has been especially persistent with questions about Jon’s fate. Headey says, “I can’t wait for season 6 to come out so I can actually have a rest.”
Visit Entertainment Weekly to read more comments from the cast on the subject!
Hodor!!!
Edit: 1st ever.. Glorydays..
Hodor!
Lena!! 🙂
it annoys me so much … THEY annoy me … I’m tired of this promo.
And Game Of Thrones is not interesting without Jon.
Maisie’s quote is troubling.
I love Maisie’s answer:
‘It’s very funny when people think they know a lot more about answers than they really do…..’ or words to that effect.
The premiere is going to have such interesting reactions from viewers all over! 😀 Truthfully, I am looking forward to the Season 6 as much for the show itself as also for viewer reactions. And at least two additional events in Season 6.
I still remember Star Trek and JJ Abrams and everyone saying Cumberbatch wasn’t playing Khan…
When we all knew he was Khan, but they had to lie for years about it. I’m sure all the actors can’t wait for Ep 1.
miss,
Yes but D&D know that Jon Snow is the heart of GoT,GoT without Jon is nothing and the audience for HBO is very very important….
Maisie is always so smug and it irritates me so much. Lena’s answer made me giggle. Queen!
I <3 the thrones ladies! 🙂
STOP ASKING I CAN'T TELL YOU is the answer I would want to give. But that would be twisted around to "oh so you're saying he's NOT dead then?!" So yah they can't win…
I didn’t believe it for the past 289 days but they seem really sincere this time guys.
Sike. 289 days since the s5 finale. 2=b, 8=h, 9=I.
B is for Brother.
H is for Hound.
I is for ITZ BOUT 2 GET HYPE!!!!!!!!
cleganebowl confirmed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RKo_u2l1Kw
my new trailer 🙂
BREAKING NEWS:
Water is now wet.
It’s not the first time Alfie has used that description. It’s an odd one, and one worth considering. Over the years, as we were just reminded yesterday, Alfie Allen is not good at keeping things under wraps. So if any member of the cast’s statements are worth at least considering at face value it’s his.
This is the best thing.
Yeah whatever.
DRINK!!!
Shame for HBO that pictures of
It´s becoming lame and hopefully it will be over in 25 days.
caliopesnow,
Love that dress!
I am repeatedly impressed with the costuming. These garments are gorgeous.
Gwendoline Christie’s response was interesting. She says something along the lines of “No one has presented it to me, other that in bold terms ‘Is Jon Snow Dead'”. Makes me think everyone’s been asking the wrong question…maybe not, “is he dead?” but, “will he be coming back?”. I’m sure I’m not the only one to surmise this, and I’m sure he is dead, but I’m also now more convinced that he’s coming back….but who isn’t, amiright?
Yes.
The Long Night,
I’m not a drinker so I’ve been eating cake instead and think I’ve doubled my body weight in the last month! Booked places for myself and HotPinkLipstick in a recovery clinic once this is sorted one way or the other (one with HBO obviously!). Anyone else who’s been doing the drinking/eating game is welcome to join us.
harma dogememe I’ve missed your always entirely scientific analysis. I didn’t have hype before you showed me the error of my ways 😀
Wonder why no one has asked them yet to bet on if he’s truly dead. I’d definitely bet with kit for 1 milion dollars that jon snow isn’t dead at the end of season 6.
If he disagrees then he survived.
The most exciting thing about the start of Season 6 is finally finding out about Jon so that the promos and cast interviews can be about someone else.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind Jon but everything seems to come back to him (clearly if he was truly gone they wouldn’t go on and on about it). I have nothing against the actors flat out lying about it – if they gave out spoilers I’d imagine people would be more annoyed and to be fair it’s probably only the hardcore fans who read most interviews.
I love how Maisie is in interviews it’s refreshing to see someone be honest about the fans they encounter.
What I really want to know is if they’ll address that the mutiny against Jon doesn’t make sense in the TV version without the Pink Letter from Ramsay Bolton:
Why would Thorne stab Jon for letting wildlings through the Wall (and not because of the Boltons)…the episode right after he let Jon and the wildlings through the Wall?
What possible benefit is there in stabbing him now? Proverbially locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.
This is just a massive plot hole – not something that can be casually waved aside. It relies on the characters behaving illogically, if not *absurdly*.
There are two possibilities:
1 – The scriptwriters were aware of the implications but didn’t care (or at least, consciously decided that production issues/pacing outweighed the problems it caused), or
2 -….the writers themselves genuinely didn’t see the contradictions and plot holes caused by drastically changing this.
For god’s sake, people: there are entire news columns out there devoted to analyzing Kit Harington’s hair length to try to see if he’s still playing Jon Snow….yet no one is ***analyzing the motivations of the men who attacked him?***
Shame.
Man everyone is really buckling down, I saw the spoilers and the leaked pics so I know what to believe until proven otherwise by the show and the show alone. Bring it, that’s all.
Still no episode names :/
Lulus Mum,
Typo, that should of course be “I didn’t GET HYPE!” 😀
Well guys, you can consider yourselves lucky: around here season 6 will premiere a month later than in the US.
I already feel sad about having to stop hanging around here after the 23rd of April…
Lulus Mum, I think I will be needing the address of this recovery clinic…
The Dragon Demands,
It made perfect sense to everyone but you. There is no ”plot-hole” that needs addressed.
Eck,
She is not really being honest per se. She is trolling pretty hard core actually
The Dragon Demands,
Jon Snow was stabbed because he sacrificed the lives of his Night’s Watch brethren to save wildlings. Thorne didn’t close the gate on Jon because there were a few men of the Night’s Watch with Jon who survived the attack. It would be against Thorne’s character to leave them to certain death simply for following orders. Besides, there were still Jon loyalists at Castle Black who wouldn’t have allowed Thorne to close the gate on their Lord Commander. So no, no plot hole.
My problem with the pink letter is:
A. It’s true, and this is a lame way to tell us about Stannis’s death.
B. It’s not true, and we can add Stannis to the growing list of death fake outs.
To me, it seemed to have been thrown in there to simply to make Jon’s stabbing more convoluted. However, I didn’t particularly enjoy how the show handled it either. I feel like one more scene between Jon and the senior officers of the Watch would have made the stabbing play out better.
I’ve never endured a more tiring and frankly stupider pre-season. It seems the show is revolving around just one thing now, and the worst thing is it’s the marketing team that wants it so. D+D should have not left it as a cliffhanger, they basically invited a year’s worth of the same question and answers being repeated ad nauseaum. But it seems that was the whole point. Free buzz.
Can’t wait until the resurrection so they and we can talk about other things.
Young Dragon,
Not to mention that Jon could have broken trough the gate. Quite easlly. Thorne knew he didn’t had enough man to fight all the wildling AND men loyal to Jon inside CB.
After Jon broke trough the gate, he would have executed Thorne for treason, no question.
Letting them in IS risky but it gives Thorne room to maneuver.
After sticking to the story that Jon is dead for the better part of a year, why would anybody expect the cast to suddenly go and spill the proverbial beans?
I am sure he is dead and going to be brought back to life, my only concern would be if they drag it on for too long.
To me, it only makes sense not to do the LSH story, if you are saving that card to be played with Jon.
The Cock Merchant,
Exactly. Even killing Mance was probaly for the same reason.
They want to make it special and suprise the fans.
We must remenber this cliffhanger isn’t directed at us hardcore fans, we are very, very few, compared to the total audience, it’s directed towards the millions of casual fans who don’t scoop every spoiler or leak.
Sou,
Oooh dilemma. Are you going to try and avoid spoilers and watch it as unsullied as possible or just carry on as normal here and know what’s coming? Personally I prefer to know what’s going to happen so I’m emotionally ready for it (and ready to shut my eyes/turn the sound off if ness). Let Pinky and I know so we can avoid spoilers if you prefer it that way. We can just stick to telling our fellow non-Watcher detoxees how GoT damaged our internal organs. Or inventing new drinking games, depending on how S6 progresses 😉
Sorry I didn’t read the second bit of your post. See you in May then? 🙂
Young Dragon,
On a different subject. I do think we’ll have a PL.
But it will be the catalyst for
D+D’s wives have also chimed in. They’re all going to milk it for all its worth. This is so cheap though, they’ve made it cheap with this pulpy mainstream buzz. It’s overkill. None of them know how to treat things with moderation or subtlety, neither the actors nor the showrunners nor the marketing team.
I’m just waiting for the resurrection with no hype anymore, they killed it. Just get it over with so we can hear the end of it and move on to more important stuff like Tower of Joy, White Walkers and Bastardbowl. The issue is so boring now. Dunno how they handle it in the show to make it interesting.
Sou,
Oh wow, not sure I would have the willpower not to check here for a month.
Guys …..
What if they’re right?
What IF Jon Snow really is and STAYS dead?
Ö___Ö
phantomstrife,
The buzz died when we got that
As I said this isn’t for us hardcore fans, but for the millions of casual fans who really have no idea if he’s coming back or not.
MsComandante,
Then it would take a miracle for the show not to lose it audience. So much of the story revolves around Jon’s true parentage. For all of that to be jettison out the window, it would be too much for a lot of people.
Lulus Mum,
What makes you think I actually want to recover? Maybe I’m angling to be the next contestant on “My 1000lbs Alcoholic Life?” A camera “follows” me around while I lay on my couch eating cake, drinking wine, occasionally shouting at my tablet after I read a comment. …It’s a life plan.
The Dragon Demands,
It may be a plot hole for you because you clearly follow westeros.org too much, you overanalyze stuff and you get too easily frustrated. When I first read ADWD, I never thought for a second that the pink letter was a sole reason for Jon’s assassination, just a final straw.
And I really wonder, how can’t you understand that not letting Jon through the Wall would portray ser Alliser as a traitor. You think that if he is acting lord commander, he can do anything he wants and everyone else has to obey him? Not letting Lord Commander through the Wall is an act of treason.
Also, the assassination was done in secret. Nobody knows, who did it (except Jon himself). I sometimes wonder what did Bowen Marsh and his men try to accomplish in the books? They stabbed Jon in the middle of the day, that means they would be immediately charged with treason and executed.
Really, I sometimes wonder how could a person, who clearly hates the show or at least dislikes it (your profile says so) and is so easily frustrated by changes, become a main administrator on Wikia. And what happened to “This is a site where anyone can contribute”?
MsComandante,
Did you stay away from all the things s6 filming gave us? If so then ok. If no, then I rest my case.
Ahh I love Lena, she’s always funny.
HotPinkLipstick,
Sorry honey, I was thinking along the lines of a quick detox so the body recovers enough to withstand the second onslaught of abuse when we get a new drinking game once S6 has started. You need to do what’s right for you. Of course the bigger the bra size the more pictures of NCW you’ll be able to stuff in it. And if you’re in the USA, where people seem to be able to sue each other for all sorts of things that would be laughed out of court here in the UK, you can sue HBO/D&D/GRRM/whoever because it’s their fault you became a 1,000lb alcoholic in the first place. Win-win I feel! 😀
The Cock Merchant,
I doubt it. The casual show fans don’t even know who Rhaegar or Lyanna is, they are touched upon so briefly.
You post this in every news report based on Jon Snow’s death. Many of us would appreciate it if you confined this largely nonsensical complaint to your wiki (Or, preferably, to your mind alone.) Though you deny it, the truth is simple: the circumstances of his death are different from the books, and that’s what makes it confusing for you.
I see you haven’t taken up on my offer of actually learning what a “plot hole” is. One day, one day…
As for the issue at hand, which is not a plot hole but has certainly not been fully explained, there are more than the two possibilities you offer; as you see it, either the writers didn’t care or didn’t realize we’d be left with a gap in knowledge as it regards to the mutineers’ trigger for carrying out the assassination then and not earlier. Which is funny, because even in the wiki you admit there are other possibilities. But oh well, honesty hasn’t ever been your forte. Other posters here have offered a few likely motivations, and there are even more, such as the fact that they learnt of Stannis’ defeat after the wildlings came through; and Stannis was very friendly to Jon. Now Stannis is dead, so… Yeah. I’m sure even you can figure that out.
B,
The fact that they are doing the Tower of Joy illustrates how important that back story is. Additional clues were dropped last season if you paid attention to Little Finger’s reaction after a particular line abut Lyanna being kidnapped. Why put all those clues in if they are not going to have a big payoff?
Actually, I was the one who wrote that. He immediately reverted my contribution but then changed his mind.
Lulus Mum,
Oh no, I am staying away! Just to be sure… Last season I managed to get spoiled about Jon’s death, can you believe that?
So if you come across me after the 24th just kick me out.
I gave him too much credit, then. Not particularly surprised.
It’s really impressive how many twists of logic he has to make in order to have his complain make some sort of sense. And he proudly accuses the writers of being illogical! It’s kinda funny and sad at the same time. Hopefully a few of the comments here will sway him, though I don’t hold my breath.
Mihnea,
Those millions of fans won’t even read those interviews. I’d bet many of them haven’t even seen the official trailer. They’re going into the season blind, like Aemon blind. The buzz is there despite the photo, oh man D+D must have been furious when it leaked. EW article confirmed they were (about this and ToJ set leaks). They took all the necessary precautions to avoid any leak from filming. Made sure to have the Castle Black, Winterfell and Saintfield sets guarded as if they’re effing White House, Pentagon and Kremlin. And yet one sneaky person managed to fvck them over. An A for an effort to the production team though.
phantomstrife,
I agree.
I know… and it is not a month, it is the whole season 6 + a month. So that is 3 months and a half?
Oh dear.
I think this is interesting as well…My thoughts and I know others have had them: Mild SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
Jon Snow is in fact dead, and will stay dead. Now Jon Stark, or something similar, is very much alive & will play a key role in S6 & hopefully into the future!
The Dragon Demands,
A common complaint from certain book readers that can be rather easily refuted with a more careful, not to mention open-minded, analysis. Let me offer a few plausible explanations:
– Thorne and the conspirators haven’t yet formulated a clear plan on how to deal with this eventuality
– They weren’t sure of the loyalty of all the Night’s Watchmen that remained at Castle Black and feared a mutiny if they moved against Jon in full view of everyone
– They didn’t want to forsake the rest of the black brothers that went with Jon to Hardhome
– Stannis was alive at that time and they didn’t want to get on the bad side of a king that was clearly in favor of Jon as Lord Commander.
Taken together, I would say these arguments paint a pretty convincing picture.
Sou,
So you won’t come here after it’s started in your country and only look at things which relate to episodes you’ve already seen? Woah, I applaud your willpower! Hopefully it’ll be worth all the effort – it does seem from what we’ve learned so far that it’ll be a fairly action packed series with plenty of surprises 😀
It’s all in the semantics, pay attention to the wording.
I no longer care about the manner of resurrection (whoever does it and in what way), what’s more important is what he wll be like after it. One thing’s for sure we are not getting the Jon from the previous 5 seasons. That character is dead and gone forever.
Luka Nieto,
Lord Parramandas,
I’ll suck it up and agree with you…I do not see a plot hole. In fact I see a seasons worth of heavy-handed set-up. Without the Pink Letter, my sympathies do not lie with the assassins and a bunch of other little things are obnoxious to me on the show (Boo – Olly)… but it’s certainly not a plot hole.
“For the Watch” in my mind would have eventually happened with or without the Pink Letter, even in the books. *shudder to admit* But it was less justified, less Jon Snow’s blind silly fault. I hope there is a small contingent of loyal Watchmen that defends Jon on the show (although there’s only 50 men left so meh). I want to identify with them, not Thorne’s men. Watching Wildlings go south of the Wall so they do not become White Walkers is something that can be understood, even by imaginary me, a stupid Black Brother peasant. Being asked to leave the Wall to fight some lord down south because of a written threat when I can’t even bloody read is a much bigger stretch.
I don’t need the Pink Letter now in Season 6… too late now…
phantomstrife,
I hope this doesn’t mean they’ll completely butcher his character and eliminate all the growth for the sake of sensationalism. I imagine they’ll drag the resurrection as long as possible though (they haven’t learned anything from The Walking Dead lol).
Budget for season 6 is over $110M, each episode cost about $10M with the Bastardbowl one most likely costing around $20M. This is immense. I expect the production value to be off the charts for a TV show.
We’re getting to the point when we should start seeing some of the cast on US late night talk shows. So far the only one I see scheduled is Liam on Conan the night of April 7th. He’s listed as first guest (primary) as well.
I think Maisie Williams knows that killing off her character would not create a fraction of the disturbance that Jon’s fate has caused among fans.
And – as she likes to point out – it’s Thrones – so why not kill off Arya next… that would be sooooo unexpected and therefore – again according to herself -so great.
Through her annoying comments she has managed to belittle my interest in Arya’s fate a lot – so much, that i would be way more concerned if Grey Worm were to be killed off instead of Arya….
Jon is my favorite character. I’m more interested in what is going on in his storyline and the stuff in the North than any other part of the show/books, but these ‘Is he dead’ questions are beyond tedious at this point. Of course he’s dead. He will be resurrected somehow, perhaps not the way we all expect, but it will happen. We’ve seen the pictures. We know the Tower Of Joy is happening. And we know that the Boltons are fighting an army of wildlings and other Northmen who fly the Stark banner. There is only one character who could be leading that army into battle, and it’s not Rickon or Sansa. It’s not some newly cast Northern Lord. It’s Jon fucking Snow. End of story.
….I spoke in haste before:
I fully hope that this was just a case of the writers wanting to shock the audience, but they fully intended to later Season 6 premiere) have Thorne say “the tipping point was actually when we heard the Boltons defeated Stannis”.
….in which case we’re arguing semantics between “plot hole” and “what currently seems like a plot hole”.
And yes, to those specifically arguing, “wait until we hear the rest of it in Season 6”, this may have been getting ahead of myself.
HOWEVER, what I’m reacting to are those who insist that Season 6 won’t even need to mention Stannis’s defeat as a factor at all.
That’s what we’re talking about here.
In and of itself yes, some may have wanted to kill Jon or at least hated him over the wildlings in the novels, but the tipping point was when he said he’d fight the Boltons. So in and of itself, changing the motivation to “Jon got men killed trying to save wildlings” isn’t actually a bad idea — if, for example, NO wildlings were saved from Hardhome, Jon just returned with a tenth of his men, and he was later stabbed for his failure. That’s at least internally consistent. But that’s not what happened.
” the truth is simple: the circumstances of his death are different from the books, and that’s what makes it confusing for you.”
No one is disputing that they’re different; obviously I’m pointing out that they’re different. What I challenged was to come up with an explanation of how the changed version is logically consistent with itself. “The show is simply different” is a conversation-ender; you’re being asked to defend the new version as consistent with itself.
Look, the only explanations I’ve heard that don’t involve Stannis at all are (so far, anyway):
1 – Jon and the wildlings advanced to the Wall publicly, and enough of the rest of the Watch remained loyal to Jon that Thorne actually couldn’t just lock the gates to them.
2 – Thorne wouldn’t close the gates on the other Watch members with Jon and the wildlings.
3 – The wildlings would storm the gate anyway.
Of these, 2 and 3 are easily dismissible: there aren’t 100,000 wildlings as there were in the Battle of Castle Black, these are 5,000 ragged refugees and the episode doesn’t portray or hint that they were in a position to storm the Wall again.
If the reason for Thorne being angry about letting the wildlings through the Wall was “they’ll kill us all once they’re south of it”….yes, he would have sacrificed the handful of men Jon took with him by locking them out; either way they’re dead, in this line of reasoning.
…the only one that I won’t dismiss out of hand is “maybe they’ll say that Thorne didn’t feel he could lock the gate because many other Watch members are still loyal enough to Jon that they’d have opposed him”.
I still think that strains the entire point though, and that taking out the Pink Letter causes a lot of problems.
But fundamentally, Luka, your exact words on the subject were that it bluntly didn’t even “need” to make logical sense….that we shouldn’t even be looking for an explanation like “well he didn’t lock the gate because he didn’t think he could get away with it”…..instead, you said that it “created drama” and therefore didn’t need more “over-analysis”.
Nonetheless, I accept the criticism that I’m getting upset about a *potential* plot hole and the other half of the cliffhanger has yet to air — indeed, I hope that the next half can somehow provide a logical explanation. So I won’t keep bringing it up at such length ***until new footage airs and we have more new stuff to analyze***.
Flayed Potatoes,
Well they won’t turn him into Ramsay or Lady Stoneheart-type character so it won’t be jarring and devolving for his new persona.
ladywolfsbane,
Something has to happen for him to decide to move against the Boltons. Some incentive that hadn’t been there previously. I doubt it will be for reasons similiar to those in ADWD though (with Sansa instead of Arya mind you).
There is no evidence for that. Lord Beric was still Beric after six or seven resurrections, even if he lost something of himself every time. Jon may be a tad darker and stranger, but he will still be the character we’ve been following for five years, or else what’s the point? His character arc won’t just stop to make room for a practically new character inhabiting the same person.
john,
Nicely done. Allow me to share my own 🙂
Not very long, but I hope you guys like it nonetheless 🙂
Well, GRRM said there is consequence.
I mean….is Theon “the same Theon”, in personality, as we saw in Season 1?
Everytime I get asked, I quote Monty Python:
“He’s passed on! This crow is no more! He has ceased to be! He’s expired and gone to meet his maker!
He’s a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed him to the perch he’d be pushing up the daisies!
His metabolic processes are now history! He’s off the twig! He’s kicked the bucket, he’s shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-CROW!”
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE
Oh please. The wildlings had a freaking giant to open the gate and at least hundreds of fighting men. The Night’s Watch had… what, 30 to 40 fighting men inside Castle Black? 50 int total, but you have to account for the wounded and old and the ones that went with Jon. It was at least an immense risk.
But please, keep believing that nonsense. You and a few others are the only ones who think it’s a plot hole; it made perfect sense to everyone else. It’s just like when you said Tyrion killing Tywin didn’t make sense in the show, because they omitted Tysha. The reality is the show fucked up with your expectations, so it confused you. But in the context of the show, it made sense. Just as this does.
Consequence implies continuity. Which is what I said; the same person we knew, but darker and stranger. Others are acting as if the resurrected Jon Snow will be a completely different person. That would make no sense dramatically.
The Dragon Demands,
If I’m reading your post right, it seems that you’ve accepted that there is a possible reasoning for Thorne opening the gate for the wildlings. Now, plot holes are inconsistencies that contradict the logic present in the story with no logical explanation. Since, by your own admission, a possibility exists, it automatically negates the scene from being a plot hole.
Yeah, I tried to explain to him that he keeps using the term “plot hole” in the wrong way. Repeatedly. Like, half a dozen times. He doesn’t care. “Plot hole” sounds harsher than “unexplained plot point”, so he will keep using it, even though it makes no sense. As you said, for a “plot hole” to exist there has to be a explicit logical inconsistency or contradiction (such as two logically contradicting events that couldn’t possibly happen in the same universe).
Oh well. Let’s try again. The Dragon Demands, for the hundreth time: A gap in our knowledge of the plot is not a plot hole.
Luka Nieto,
Theon from season 5 is no longer Theon we were introduced to and he didn’t have to go through a death stage. Even temporary death has grim consequences in GOT/ASOIAF. There are changes and never for the better. This is why the resurrection isn’t that much of a cop-out as it usually is in the narrative.
In the show it seems they’re not going for the warged into Ghost subplot as they haven’t set it up. So unless they include a shocking new development in deus ex machina style, Jon has no way to protect his mind until he gets back.
And that’s exactly your problem. You get frustrated too easily and you don’t accept others’ opinions, at least not on the Wikia.
After rewatching the premiere of season 3, the scene where Tyrion asks Tywin for Casterly Rock, I can’t fathom why some book readers continue to insist Tyrion didn’t have any other reason to kill Tywin.
Luka Nieto,
He’s not alone. Many purists either don’t know what a plot hole is or know, but use it anyway because it sounds more critical. I’m leaning towards the latter.
This will go down as the biggest circle jerk in the history of mankind
Only in the sense that for all we know, Season 6 could have Thorne say “because of Stannis”
I wouldn’t mind if he kept his opinion to himself. But the whole Wikia is full of his subjective criticism and because he is an administrator, he simply reverts any change he doesn’t like. The “notes” sections are now twice as long as the episode summaries and are mostly filled with comparison to the books even though there are “Differences” pages (which I started to write way before he came to the Wiki).
You still don’t get it, do you? If there is space for an explanation, it automatically makes it not a plot hole. It’s a gap in our knoweldge of the plot, an unexplained plot point, or however you want to say it. But not a plot hole.
I didn’t know we have you to thank for the “Differences” pages. It’s a pity that TDD has turned the “Notes” sections in the episodes’ pages into his own personal blog.
I don’t find Maisie’s quote troubling. Who’s to say she knows much more than any dick off the street, i.e., me? If they are as secretive with stuff as we’re led to believe, she should be as nothing-knowing as ol’ Jonny Snuwww himself.
When it finally happens, and Kit Harrington comes back as… whomever, they will all smirk and squeal and say tee hee we told you JON SNOW was really dead!!! as if we haven’t all seen that very thing coming for 289 days.
Off-topic: there is a YouTube link to an interview (this may be the Indonesian interview?) Ellie Kendrick and Isaac Hempstead Wright. Past AND future visions are coming, and it sounds to me that Meera has an action sequence that Bran doesn’t (though I may be mistaken). Also, Meera’s duty is to protect Bran, and that gets tested “to its limits”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_1ALZtqJ0
GoT Power Play marathon begins Monday on HBO.
…Whatever else, the reasoning wasn’t “obvious” in the TV version. Even if there is a perfectly logical, even fitting reason, it wasn’t made clear on-screen in Season 5.
They never played it as “maybe Thorne will close the gate and we’ll have to attack” but “maybe he’ll close the gate and leave us to die”
You think you’re own internal rationalizations are obvious to everyone — when in fact a large portion of viewers were confused at the lack of clear explanation (even if there WAS an explanation).
I’d even accept rationalizations the scriptwriters gave in interviews but….they’ve done maybe two interviews in the past two years. Even when they change things, I don’t mind as much so long as they later discuss it and show that “thought” went into it.
No, there wasn’t an obvious trigger to outright kill his own father without Tysha…or rather, maybe in the TV version it was his anger over Shae, but the real question is: “what reason would he have to go back to the Tower of the Hand and confront him?” —-the bigger question is really “why would you leave out something with such dramatic punch to it?” other than the fan theory I’ve heard that they’re saving Tysha as a reason for Tyrion to kill Jaime or something. But that’s a separate discussion. Again more unfuriating is that the showrunners made such a massive change and then hid from any questions about it.
This is the possible reason I was talking about. You said that it was possible that Thorne wouldn’t keep the gates closed because other members of the Night’s Watch loyal to Jon would oppose him. This possibility makes it not a plot hole.
You and a few of the other people in your bubble are not “a large portion of viewers”.
I see you’re not going to answer the relevant accusations. That you misuse the word plot hole. That you misuse the wiki itself, as Lord Parramandas pointed out! See, now you’re the one avoiding questions. Should we demonize you, as you and your pals do with D&D?
Jack Bauer 24,
A new line from Tyrion: “I understand the way this game is played.” He sounds as if he means BIZNESS!
Maybe he was already determined to kill him after he sentenced him to death? I doubt show-only fans were as confused as you. Hell, they probably weren’t confused at all.
Jack Bauer 24,
I know what I will be doing until the 24th.
The Dragon Demands,
Your comparison/attachment to the books gets old.
As an Unsullied I did not see any problem in the way this came about.
Lighten up.
Edit.
Kay,
That is from season 2.
Well, you joined in October 2011. As I explained on an older version of my profile page: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User:The_Dragon_Demands?oldid=74211
I made my *screenname* in April 2012….but I’d been regularly contributing as an anonymous (albeit recognizable) IP address since June 2011. So it wasn’t “way before I came to the wiki”, I was already there.
But this is irrelevant. What matters is that we’ve *always* compared the TV series to the books, they don’t exist in isolation.
You always answer with that. The comparisons are not only welcome but needed! We all agree on that! To say otherwise is a strawman argument. We’re discussing the places in which you discuss the book, and the way in which you do it (your poor showing here is a good example).
BTW, you keep ignoring the main stuff. I guess you’re even worse than D&D in terms of answering difficult questions! Should I start an absurdly wiki page demonizing you because of it? You would.
What I hate more than anything….
…more than anything….
….is when during live Q&A people blurt out to cast & crew, “IS JON SNOW REALLY DEAD?”
I mean…what’s the mentality to that? Do they really think they’re going to randomly answer that in public?
I mean the same thing happened with “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”….that’s not how “questions” work. Ugh.
I have said this many times in the past – as a show-only fan, I wasn’t confused AT ALL. 😀 I was, however, extremely tired of some fans going on and on and on about Tysha and how Tyrion’s motives didn’t make sense. That was when I started to realize that some fans were really NOT watching the show, but watching to see their expectations from the books unfold onscreen. I expect to see more of this sort of reaction in the new season just around the corner. 😉
Kay,
That’s a sweet interview; it’s nice to hear from those two. The interview seems to confirm bits and pieces we’ve put together for Bran’s storyline. The more I find out about his story, the more excited I get for it.
I will participate as well… in any shape or form!! I wanted to see if there was a fan base in Tampa FL that is having a season premier party?
That sums up The Dragon Demands, basically.
Luka Nieto,
I believe in the books Beric makes some comment to Thoros about not even remembering who he was supposed to marry or where he lived … whether that was hyperbole or not I don’t recall.
Beric died six times or so. Jon only once, and presumably only relatively briefly.
Kay,
Thanks Kay. Yes, it’s the same interview. However I don’t think necessarily Bran will not be involved in the sequence of action. I think Isaac just didn’t want speak about it.
Yes, but in those early years, the comparison was sidelined and the Wikia was actually about TV show. I remember when “In the books” sections were just a few sentences. Now it is more about comparison than the show itself, not to mention your harsh and subjective criticism and also your rude responses. How many times do I have to tell you, that you do not own the Wikia. Your edits are not worth more than those of the regular users. And considering that you openly dislike the show…
Thankfully there won’t be as much ‘source material’ aka books to cling to.
And no Elio-and-Linda reviews to quote.
I would have to break my computer, my phone, and abandon my friends for a month… that is about the extent of my will power to stay away from this site …. 😉
Ember,
Exactly. Was just going to write that myself. The next question is if he does come back who will he be? Or will he stay dead and function like Cold Hands? Surely the term “dead men cannot die” has to mean something other than we are tough bastards.
Flora,
Flora,
Truth is, even though i believe in Jon’s resurrection due to evidence both from the books and show, Game of Thrones could very well go on without the character. There are much more depth to this story than you seem to grasp.
MsComandante,
You mean like cold hands?
It doesn’t matter if he stays dead. There’s enough wriggle room either way.
Luka Nieto,
Here’s the thing: Beric was slowly chipped away because he came back often but quickly after his death (so there weren’t drastic changes, but they were significant to his own self). On the flip side,
Jon will probably be somewhere in between maybe in terms of time. Is Jon going to be like a nicely warmed bowl of porridge in Goldilocks and the Three Bears? (You know, like “This resurrection is too cold, this one is too hot… but this one is just right!”) Lol. Seems a little strange. Do most people agree he’s going to be worse than Beric but not as bad
? Or do people generally think he’s going to be better than both? I’m conflicted.
Bing,
I am impressed that you can tell that she has gone out of her way to “troll” fans (which some people seem to think everything is some form of) instead of just deciding to give a slightly different response than “he’s dead/I only read my own scripts”.
Each to their own though, if you think she’s trolling fair enough but I disagree and think she’s just putting her own spin on the question.
Luka Nieto,
Don´t get your hopes up. The dude is a pathological attentionwhore.
Ah…. thanks! Now I remember. I was too eager for a teeeny morsel from the new season!
Very true. But I do fear that there will be decades of expectations built up and much throwing out of toys from prams type tantrums! 😀
Love it! Nothing wrong with cake. I’m on antibiotics right now, so technically I’m not drinking either.
The trailer has 60 million views…
Me too, to be honest. But I think too much of a departure in LSH territory would undo five seasons of gradual character development. Although I think a drastic change works with Catelyn’s LSH arc, I’d have my doubts about a main character that has to stay a main character going through something that fundamentally. So I’d say, Jon would be more on the Beric side of things, but with a twist that we haven’t figured out yet 🙂
(Btw, in contrast to Jon, neither Beric nor LSH have any connection to the White Walkers. So, I can see Jon, having been to „the darkness“, convert to R’hollorism in a way (maybe even decide to become Mel’s champion) because he has actually seen in Hardhome what it would mean for Westeros if the WW broke through the Wall. If that were so, I ask myself why he would opt to fight the Boltons instead of – I don’t know – not have a battle with thousands of dead people who could all be resurrected by the Night’s King…)
Nero Martell,
While I disagree with the premise, the use of Monty Python in your execution had me laughing hysterically….down to the John Cleese sounding “he’s an ex-crow!”
Red Carpet premiere is in 10 days. Hopefully we get the premiere title soon. Isn’t the premiere title always known before the Red Carpet?
Well I most certainly hope so!
oh oh people… I think Jon Snow will come back as champion of the white walkers raised by night king and fight for starks ( Kid playing in season 6 only the death body, another actor will play him as champion of white walker), Bran will see that Jon is now a champion of white walkes…
and somehow after season 7 he will be killed by needle (Arya) to come back as song of ice and fire=kit harrington again ( probably Arya dies in this phase as bittersweet?)
Reply
Luka Nieto,
Agreed.
Young Dragon,
Right? Or the fact that Tywin was going to gleefully have him executed and was diddling his one true love.
kit_hepburn,
Unknown, but I agree with Luka that it will not be as significant as Beric “I held a castle once …, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman’s hair. Who knighted me? … It all faades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest.” That’s pretty bad memory-wise even if his character’s ethos did not change like the other. And maybe the manner of death affects the resurrected?
kit_hepburn,
We didn’t really know Beric before, so it’s tricky. I think we may see a darker, stranger Jon in terms of personality, but he’ll largely retain his memory and sense of who he is.
Some of you nerds are actually mad at Maisie lol. She’s just fooling around. Projecting “smugness” onto her isn’t very mature.
Kay,
Thank you for posting the interview! They are both of them so nice! Especially Isaac. He was such a sweet child and now he is a lovely teenager.
Completely made of speculation, but I do NOT believe Jon will be resurrected by Mel. I think she will try and I think she will fail, (and we’ll all have a WTF moment where we doubt he’s coming back). When they give up and they resign themselves to burning his body on a pyre, that’s when the Azor Ahai miracle will happen, mirroring the Dany miracle at the end of S1. This won’t be something akin to what was done to Beric Dondarrion (though Mel will try), it will be a true miracle.
Lena knows her 80’s bands! 😀
I had exactly the same thoughts months ago and then I was convinced of the most popular theory in which it’s Mel alone who does it, with no other prophetic magic event involved. If I was right to begin with, I will feel somewhat vindicated…
Luka Nieto,
I hope you were right! 😉
Actually, he put in a potential explanation, I removed it, then he said that it would be more fair to at least list some possible explanations, I agreed that it was biased to remove what he put in, so I added it back.
Really I’m facing a no-one situation here: If I say something doesn’t make sense, I’m criticized for being biased against it. If I say something doesn’t make sense *but list possible explanations that fit within the TV continuity*, I’m criticized for groundless speculation.
Fundamentally….do you just want a basic plot recap and casting list? In which case….why bother? Wikipedia.org already does that, without any further analysis.
It seems that *everything* that happens on the show just “makes sense” to you because they can do no wrong on general principle. And I’m not talking about faithfulness to the novels, I mean basic internal continuity stuff.
I mean I once saw you remove a minor note that “Theon’s gloves disappear and reappear between alternate camera angles in one scene” because you said it was needlessly biased criticism 🙂
Anyway, part of me really really always hoped that they’d explain that the “because they heard Stannis lost” explanation was in fact *always planned* and they just wanted it to be a surprise. But *as presented*, until then, it doesn’t really make sense.
And yeah there is a difference between a “gap in knowledge” and an outright “implausible plot hole”, but if you leave too many gaps in knowledge they kind of add up — i.e. things that don’t necessarily have *implausible* solutions, but which as presented don’t explain enough.
Like….bad example: What if Season 2 presented it as Theon purely having a choice between surrendering Winterfell and being executed by Robb or going down fighting? This might strike some viewers as implausible, given that they’ve established that “announcing that you’ll join the Night’s Watch” is always a viable option. But the actual episode has a scene of Luwin imploring Theon to do that, but he explains he won’t because he thinks Jon Snow would kill him if he came to the Wall. Was this “unnecessary exposition”? No. Was it a “physically impossible plot hole” if left unsaid? Not exactly. But it’s not a “gap in knowledge” that could easily stand.
Fundamentally I think that on a sour grapes level you just accept anything the TV series has the characters do and just bend your mind to explain whatever happens. But bias goes both ways: “criticism” that a show didn’t explain something, or the dreaded “fan speculation” to fill in gaps which isn’t objective either.
I don’t know.
I always,find it interesting that when questioned the cast always answers with ‘Jon Snow’ is dead. Not ‘Jon’ or Kit’s character is dead, or he will no longer be in the show, or Kit is no longer with the cast. Which of course opens it up to interpretation. Yes, ‘Jon SNOW’ may be dead, but perhaps ‘Jon Targaryen’ isn’t. Just me thoughts my lords!
Sou,
The internet is you friend sue.. showbox app popcorn time app watchseries.to . Streaming is not illegal. No excuse to be a month behind. These site’s are updated a couple of hours after the show air’s.. see you here in april. I watch on those even though got comes out the day after in uk.
Eck,
If you assume that Jon Snow is indeed coming back based on multiple reports and then re-read what she says it becomes clear that her tone is definitely one that seeks to “troll” fans. She is basically saying “Fans should listen to me because I know what’s going to happen and they don’t and Jon Snow is dead.” You don’t see that as taking a trolling tone if he’s alive?
Jon did not get stabbed because of the Pink Letter in the books, either. His assassination had been planned for some time: if nothing else, then Bowen Marsh is much too meticulous to do anything so impulsive. However, the last two Jon chapters in Dragons show Marsh and Yarwyck becoming increasingly hostile towards Jon: and Marsh did flatly accuse Jon of committing treason by letting the Wildlings through.
But as for Thorne letting the Wildlings through, there are some obvious explanations for that. Thorne is not popular with the rest of the Watch whereas Jon was: and he probably could not count on their support at that time. However, seeing thousands of hated Wildlings come through would have changed things greatly for the rest of the Watch: and although Thorne probably was not any more popular, Jon would have become much less so. So, given time for people to grumble and for them to “group think” holes into the story about what happened at Hardome (remember, very few if any of them were on Mormants ranging), and the discontent would have fomented, fermented and gestated. (That has to be a mixed metaphor!)
In short? If Thorne tries to shut Jon out when when he turns up, then he does not know if the Watch supports him or not. After Jon returns and makes the hypothetical discussion a real one and fans that hatred of the Wildlings, then Thorne knows that he can do it.
Whoops!
Mr Fixit summarized it pretty well. (My browser must have only loaded a cached version of the page: your comment was one of the newest ones on my loading, but it was from hours ago!)
Again, Thrones simply is not that kind of story. It never stoops to Deus ex Machina. M,B&W hang guns on the wall and then fire them. The red-gun has been hung.
This will be just like everything on the show has been: a small proportion of the viewers will go “I knew that was going to happen!” and most of the rest will go “Oh! I should have seen that coming.”
I didn’t read all the posts…but to the people talking about plot holes:
I agree it makes no sense to let the wildlings through with Jon and then stab him. He’s the one that can keep them under some form of control. Maybe it makes sense that they want to off him…but then do it right at the gate before the wildlings all come through.
They would have had lots of time to think about whether to open the gate or not…they know they hate the wildlings…saying sure, come on in and then saying…oops, wait a tick!
How are they going to fight them now…the wildlings outnumber them and are past the wall already.
If Jon doesn’t come back I don’t know how they can write night’s watch stories. No one else in the seven kingdoms gives a damn. Wildlings will fook off and plunder southward and the nights watch will be overrun by the white walkers.
If the armies in the north kill off the wildlings they’ll be weaker and the WW will have a cake walk…where’s the drama in that?
So I asked my Unsullied wife, “Why did Tyrion kill his dad?”
“Because he was a bastard and was fucking that whore Tyrion loved.”
Seems as if Tyrion’s motivation for killing Tywin was clear enough for my Unsullied wife to understand. No Tysha needed.
Wylie,
There’s absolutely something funny (as in strange) about this I think. I sometimes get the sense, as you said, that there’s something we’re missing about where Martin is going with Jon, and this point is definitely part of it. Hmmmm.
The Dragon Demands,
Well, there are some other possibilities:
1) Aliser Thorne and the others are seriously stupid. After all Jon told the to freeze the tunnels to prevent the wildlings and their mammoths and giants from entering the Wall and they said no. Thanks to that the NW lost half its members at Castle Black in one night.
2) AT and the other mutineers are not stupid; they just think that by taking Jon out of the picture they can create chaos among the wildlings and force them to disband or fight among them, making it easier to attack and control them. This was Jon’s plan when he went to parlay with Mance after the fight. Wildlings are well known for not being able to agree on anything. Thorne and the others know this. Divide and conquer. Or as a Spanish saying goes: kill the dog, and the rabies is gone.
3) They are doing this to create a big commotion to get the Northern lords (at least) and other houses in the South to understand they need to send reinforcement to the Wall, because a band of widlings are on the loose South of the Wall.
4) The mutineers know there is not enough food for all the people who are in and around Castle Black, so they decided to take drastic measures. And the only way to get rid of Jon was by letting him pass and dispatching him later on, when no wildlings were not around. Sure, they could have shot him with an arrow from the top of the Wall, but we all know its not that easy to achieve. Furthermore, they know the wildlings can climb the wall… They could just do it at some point and later atack CB from behind. The small group with Tormund and Ygritte did a lot of damage and they were just a few (albeit it was a surprise). But if hundreds go against them things could get nasty.
5) A combination of some of the above??
Maybe I’m the stupid one, but when I read the books the Pink Letter made no sense to me, specially with the evolution Jon had in the fifth book. I did not appreciate the twist.
I preferred the solution they found in the show.
I am expecting that this will follow the common “messed up after a major trauma” motif. One show that uses this every few years is Doctor Who. If you do not watch that show, then I’ll quickly summarizes: whenever the actor playing the Doctor leaves the show, the Doctor dies a dramatic tragic death, usually saving the planet, the universe or even the space-time continuum. Except that, thanks to the fact he’s a Time Lord, he does not quite “die”: he regenerates into someone who looks like a some other British actor, and spends an episode dazed and confused and unsure of who he is until some set of events jolts him back into himself.
Of course, lots of shows and films have used this: and I expect that Jon will follow suit, as he’ll be a bit of a mess for a a couple of episodes before things “jolt” him back into remembering how to be Jon Snow again. (My bet is that it will either be Ghost or Sansa that does it.)
Lulus Mum,
Sorry, I passed out and woke up in a pool of cake vomit. Dammit. Now it’s RUINED.
But I think the drinking game will be pretty close to the same damn thing.
Does this detox place have massages? And cabana boys?
Pigeon,
But Stannis’s sword wasn’t really Lightbringer, now was it? If it had been, he’d still be alive and waiting to save the world.
I thought that Jon’s response made sense. Ramsay had just declared war on the Wall: basically, Jon had to surrender people he had no right to surrender PLUS people that he did not even have (his sister and someone called “Reek”). As Lord Commander, Jon is supposed to defend the Wall from attack: although the assumption always was that meant attack from Wildlings, not Westerosi. Of course, in classic GRRM style, it’s a moral conundrum: Jon is both supposed and not supposed to do this!
What puzzles me more was why Jon did not take Marsh’s comments more seriously: but perhaps that was because I did when reading them. Of course, I took Melisandre’s warnings more seriously than Jon did: Jon seemed to consider “almost right” the same as “completely wrong,” whereas I took it as “something like this is going to happen.”
Sou,
I’m sorry … I can barely wait till the 24th. But, because of the Season Premiere on April 10th, I’ll try to avoid coming here too.
This has already been discussed. Thorne was only acting commander, and if he gave the order to shut the gates, Jon loyalists would have viewed it as treason. This would have led to a civil war in the Night’s Watch, weakening their position. Killing Jon under the cover of darkness is much cleaner. As for the wildlings, we’ll have to wait until season 6 to find out Thorne’s plan for them.
While I appreciate the support, I’m really starting to feel guilty that this discussion is eating up a lot of the thread and putting a burden on the moderators…yeah I guess it’s probably “on topic” to the thread but…..
….it was right to point out that even I have said there is hope the writers *always* planned to more fully explain why the betrayal happened when it did in Season 6, so there’s not much more use arguing about it now.
So let’s put this “on hold”, rhymeswithreek, I don’t what to make more work for Sue, Axey, etc.
The Dragon Demands,
Hey, no worries…the explanation makes some sense…its just that AT is kind of smart…and trying to cleanly dispatch Jon pales in my mind to having way more wildlings than nights watch on the wrong side of the wall.
To stay on point with the post topic…my main point is that the cast has to deal with these questions because it really makes no sense to me if Jon isn’t coming back.
D&D have done this to themselves…I cant envision good story lines without Jon.
I know Maisie knows more than me…and if Jon aint coming back she knows even more than I know she knows more than me.
But the Starks are the only house that gives a damn about the night’s watch and the wall. Sansa, Arya, and Rickon are Starks that don’t give a damn about the wall…that leaves Jon and Bran. How much can Bran do though really? Prolly some cool stuff but I think we need Jon.
Me neither… Jesus H Christ, its just got so bloody ridiculous. Here’s my perfect scenario – Picture this? A bit of light entertainment for you… 🙂
The camera slowly pans across the room to the body of Jon Snow with his big furry ‘woof-woof’ Ghost standing beside and guarding him.
The camera then zooms in on Ghost, now growling and showing his teeth. To everyone’s amazement and as if by magic, the direwolf slowly speaks out in strong northeast English accent… “Winter… Is cumm’n!” The door suddenly flies open and in rush Thorn and his cronies to seize and destroy the body, but in an instant, Ghost jumps up attacking them in the groin biting all their balls off – LOL !!!
At least we’ll all know where Jon is now? He’s fucking warged into his woofer, hehe 🙂 😀
Well, strictly speaking, they just followed what GRRM wrote. Now, they could have done it differently: for example, they could have had it done like Bran’s fall so that it happened at the climax of one episode, and then had Bran return at the end of the next episode in the same season. That would have given us one week of “cliffhanger.”
However, there is always story to consider. The “kill the child, let the adult be born” ended the same for almost every primary character: in some sort of trauma. Blindness, assassination attempts followed by captivity, leap-and/or-die, walk-of-shame, daughter-dying-in-arms. Jon had to have this, too: and particularly because his story so strongly parallels Daeny’s. Both tried to walk a tight rope between traditionalists and the greater good: and both get stabbed in the back (figuratively: Daeny never quite gets stabbed, and Jon is stabbed in the front) by the traditionalists for trying to include too many in a “greater good.”
But as for the marketing, never confuse what dozens and dozens (even hundred and hundred) of hardcore fans are doing with what Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber are doing. Sure, they are wondering if Jon is going to pull through (or they will when they remember that that last saw him dying), but they are not obsessing over it. After all, up-and-coming young actors have a long history of ditching TV shows for a shot at films, so it’s hardly too surprising that the guy playing Jon Snow would leave.
Actually, both the show and the books make it pretty clear that the Northerners do care about the Wall, as it keeps out Wildlings. Sansa probably never thinks about it: but, then, the list of things about which Sansa has never thought is an extremely long one. (Reaching menarche before reaching sentience has that sort of effect.) Arya probably thinks that the Wall is swell: but it’s not exactly an issue for her of late. And as for Rickon, well, who knows what he thinks? He’s hardly developed at all.
At any rate, as for what Bran can do, the answer is: probably not too much. The Old Gods are reputed to whisper through the trees, but never do we here tell of them doing anything miraculous through the trees.
At this point, the majority of the cast just seems completely over and annoyed with the Jon Snow question. I don’t blame them, I’m tired myself of just reading about it.
Wimsey,
I do think northerners are told about the wall growing up…and probably think it has value…but the Starks are in charge and always have been until now. Ned personally beheaded a night’s watch deserter…and I’m sure did every one while he was in charge. He told us as much in the first episode.
Roose Bolton is not doing that.
Not the same level of concern for the importance of the Night’s watch.
No Pyp, no Grenn, no Sam, no Aemon, no Mance, no Janos, no Jon
Alliser, Oly, Edd, Davos, Melisandre, Tormund, Wun Wun
…and whatever happened to Benjen?
I hope season 6 is amazeballs!
J Lee,
I believed this is what would happen too….until the first trailer came out, where it looked like Davos and the other people in that room were protecting Jon’s body from Thorne and co. It could still happen this way, I am not so sure now though.
Are you sure it is not illegal? If it is not, you may just as well have made my day Jake; even if I will have to check with you guys for I am not sure I will be able to understand 100% of those northern accents without subtitles!
Since everyone is complaining im going to throw in Stannis`s overlooking Mance Ryder as a Nights Watch deserter (what he is in fact) and offering him a chance to kneel and serve him.
It would made a lot more sense if the offer was for Tormund and then Jon like in the books would have the right to kill Mance himself for desertion.
GuestComment:
Sophie said she wants to see her own character get killed off. This is because she A. knows she’s safe and is joking around or B. knows she dies and might as well embrace it. Perhaps Maisie would be fine with Arya’s death. Some are happy doing the same role for as long as they can (soap operas etc.) They are probably older and/OR don’t care about making it big and for them it’s just a paycheck, and a very nice one too. Others are looking for personal fulfillment, to be challenged, they take roles that interest them, not necessarily the ones that’ll bring in the most money. Then there are the fame seekers looking for that breakout role and getting into as many films as possible gives them the visibility and popularity they crave. Who knows, maybe that is fantasy most every actor has at some point.) But don’t be under the allusion that they would get attached to characters and story lines like we the viewers do.
A just can’t wait for S6! Shiiitttttt
Nice strawman there. Never said that, never will. In fact, I said just the opposite in this very discussion!
Except Jon’s and Tywin’s murders are not actually continuity issues or plot holes, but you don’t know what continuity issues or plot holes are and seem unwilling to learn, so… How am I supposed to explain this to you, for the hundredth time?
That wasn’t the reason. It’s not needlessly biased criticism; it’s a continuity mistake. Except there has been no precedent for noting basic, meaningless continuity mistakes such as those in the wiki, so it did seem redundant. Other wikis have a section for continuity mistakes in each episode’s page, and I’d be willing to include that. But alone it made no sense to include such a trivial mistake.
Oh, you sly devil. You still don’t admit that a gap in our knowledge (a deliberate gap, most likely, since it was presented as a shocking event) isn’t a plot hole. You simply sort of admitted it’s not an “outright implausible plot hole”. All plot holes are implausible. This gap in knowledge isn’t a plot hole. Your wiki claims it’s a plot hole. Fix it.
I have plenty of criticisms of the show. I just don’t include my own subjective opinions on the wiki, as you do, so you don’t get to see them. You could learn from that. You won’t, but you could.
Like I said many times before, it is not comparison that is the problem. It’s your manner of writing. GoT Wikia is a fansite and the people who come to the site are usually the ones who like TV series. “In addition this wiki is meant for the enjoyment of watchers of the television series who do not have any knowledge of the books.”
In my opinion, the articles should be written in the way that attracts the visitors. It can be clearly seen in your articles, that you were annoyed by the change. Also, several of those (comparison) articles are way too long and possibly too detailed. I advise you to write the facts and let the visitors decide for themselves if they like the change or not.
For example, your article about Tysha is very subjective and filled with negativity, going even that far that you implicitly call Tyrion’s speech about Orson Lannister a bad scene. Not to mention being too long and detailed. Here is my example of the article (about the scene itself):
Tyrion’s motivation for killing Tywin is different in the books. In the books, as Jaime is saying goodbye to Tyrion in the tunnels of the Red Keep, he reveals the secret about his first wife Tysha, whose backstory was mentioned in Baelor. Jaime reveals, that Tysha was not a whore, but an actual peasant girl who trully loved Tyrion and their marriage was genuine. Furious and regarding this as an ultimate betrayal, Tyrion first struck Jaime, swore revenge to all three, revealed Cersei’s infidelity with Lancel and finally falsely confessed being guilty for Joffrey’s murder.
The reveal becomes Tyrion’s primary motivation for killing his father. When confronting his father, Tyrion made a similar threat as in the show and demanded to know about Tysha. When Tywin responded that he sent her to »wherever whores go«, Tyrion shot him in the bowels, causing him to die in agony.
Tyrion does find Shae in the Tower of a Hand but instead of attacking him, she pleads for her life and tries to talk her way out of it, saying that Tywin and Cersei forced her into this, falsely confessing her love for Tyrion and calling him »my giant of Lannister«. Furious, Tyrion strangles her with his father’s chain. Furthermore, in the books Tyrion never sent Shae away and continued having a relationship with her even after his marriage to Sansa. Thus she never actually loved Tyrion and betrayed him for gold that Cersei promised to her.
Because of Tysha’s omission, it isn’t clear why Tyrion decided to go to Tower of a Hand in TV series. There is a possibility, that he already intended to kill Tywin in his sleep, because he sentenced him to death. Finding Shae in his father’s bed may have just infuriated him further.
You see? I explained the basic difference, pointed out the possible element of confusion and provided a possible explanation. I removed most of the subjective words and also her backstory (which was already mentioned in Baelor). There is absolutely no implication, that the change is either good or bad. Let the visitors decide for themselves I’m sure there are grammar mistakes, because English is not my primary language.
You yourself once said: ” We don’t give a shit about Talisa as she’s a horribly written invention of the TV writers”. Thus every article about her is full of negativity (especially the “Characters significantly changed for TV series”) but that’s very unprofessional. I’m sure there are people, who liked her character or at least liked her more than Jeyne in the books. Even I am among them. But the “Characters” article is written in a way, that the change is certainly bad, same goes for “Catelyn Stark in season 2”.
Last thing, the GoT Wikia does not need a detailed description of every event that happened in the books, but not in the show. That’s why there is a link to that other site. Just a couple sentences would be enough. This is a site meant for TV show. It is right for the watchers to know the basic differences but if they are really invested into the details of the book story, they can easily visit that other site or the Differences page.
HotPinkLipstick,
If we’re paying for it, it can have whatever we want. Including limitless drink and cake if going cold turkey is too daunting 😀
For anyone with access to Sky Atlantic, there’s a 2 hour best of GoT programme tonight (thursday) at 9pm. It says this one’s new so hopefully not just a repeat of last year’s, good as it was.
Lord Parramandas,
Luka Nieto,
I appreciate your strength and will of arguing with him.
It’s pointless, but admirable.
rhymeswithweak,
Both books and show make it clear that it is a general death sentence for deserting the Watch. There is no reason to think that Ned did all of the executing. Indeed, the Boltons probably flayed the deserters first. Remember, all of the Northerners benefit from keeping Wildlings out of Westeros.
El-Bobby,
As are we all! However, keep in mind that “we all” are a tiny fraction of the viewing audience: most viewers have spent no time reading about the show. Any reading at all that they are doing is happening over the next 4 weeks.
Lord Parramandas,
I do sometimes wonder if TDD has ever taken a look at other wikis. He would realize what a wiki is supposed to be; it’s supposed to be encyclopedic. And YES, that includes a comparison to the source material, both in what was adapted and the differences; it does not include lengthy one-sided articles on any subject.
I think Jon will be pretty much the same when he resurrects, except that he’ll be like Jack Douglas from the ‘Carry On’ movies, so when he talks he’ll keep shaking his shoulder, turning his head sideways and shouting “Phwahay!”
Is it me or are we all getting a bit snappy? I think the long wait, the denials about JS AND the spoilers that got us hyped are taking a toll on us. I am seriously going to have an ulcer before the premiere on the 24th.
I have to agree with Minena. I know so many people that watch GOT, but have never read the books, don’t visit sites and just enjoy the show. Shouldn’t that be what we all do? Just enjoy the show for what it is and STOP comparing it? Stop complaining about it or the producers or anything else to do with the show? I mean, i don’t get it…if you aren’t happy with the show why would anyone continue to watch it?
Sorry for the rant (see snappy), I’ll slink back into my cave now.
Lulus Mum,
Cheers mum just recorded it
Molestown bastard,
You’re welcome er…bastard? Seems a bit rude, I’ll try again. You’re welcome Moley 😀
Lulus Mum,
We should discuss this massage and cabana boy situation further. 🙂
Hope you’ve had a lovely day…I’ve just been working.
Elizabeth,
Don’t you dare bring a reasonable opinion in here!!
Old Klingon proverb: “Long ago, a dangerous storm was heading for the city of Quin’lat. Everyone took protection within the walls except one man who remained outside. When asked what he was doing, he said: “I am not afraid. I will not hide my face behind stone and mortar. I will stand before the wind and make it respect me.” So the rest of the people honored his choice and went inside the city walls, leaving him behind….”
[Quizzically raises an eyebrow]
The Dragon Demands,
You have a serious ego problem mate.
Well, I am as constant as the northern star.
The Dragon Demands,
Thanks for proving what I just said.
Indeed, don’t we all do that for most of the TV shows or films we see, or most of the books that we read?
However, there is one huge fanboy conceit at play here: the hardcores always believe that this (Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Doctor Who, etc., etc.) is “not like other shows/films/books” and that the audience is using different criteria to evaluate it than they are using to evaluate other shows/films/books. Why? Because he/she uses different criteria to evaluate his/her favorite series than he/she does for other series.
However: the rank and file audience isn’t doing that. They are not watching Doctor Who keeping something that happened in a 1960’s episode in mind. They are not watching Harry Potter films holding plot details from the HP film that they saw 5 years before. They did not wonder how the Witch King died without Merry having a Numenorean sword. And they are not wondering why Thorne (Voted Ser Unpopular 15 years running) would not have been willing to risk shutting Jon out.
All 4 of you need to agree to disagree. The pissing contest is so strong in here that the place reeks of urine. Get over yourselves and stop feeling the need to constantly provoke each other and take up half the damn thread.
Pigeon,
*scooches over, makes space on her lounge chair, passes you some cake and orders you a drink*
HotPinkLipstick,
Don’t know what a cabana boy is, let me just check……blimey! I think if you’re gonna bother doing something at all you might as well do it properly, so I’m going for the Roman Emperor option with an entire army of flunkies waiting on me hand and foot. Mmm…never been even a bit rich, never mind the billionaire kind, but it’s a lifestyle where I would be willing to take one for the team and immerse myself in it. In the interests of science obviously!
My day’s been ok, I’m a civil servant which isn’t exactly known for its excitement, but having had a long Easter break I’m only in two days this week, then it’s the weekend, so not too bad. Hope all is good with you too (apart from the destroyed liver and that).
The Dragon Demands,
I guess you can come too if you promise not to argue about anything GoT-related. That’s how Pinky and I have ended up needing rehab in the first place (drinking game based on common Watchers’ arguments in case you missed that discussion).
Caesar, is that you? Or am I talking to general Chang from Undiscovered Country? If so, may I just say that you are one of my favorite Star Trek villains!
*stuffs cake in face-hole*….aaaah. Better.
Oh sure, but Liam can’t let on he knows that! 😛 Hee hee, good point.
Lulus Mum,
I know my username is terrible but I don’t want to change it now ( sue don’t like that) I’m not a bastard in real life. I’d prefer bastard as I’m from near Leicester and Moley is very Adrian mole round here lol
Wimsey,
Merry´s dagger was Noldorin,not sure it was supposed to be Numenorean…It was given to him by Galadriel and was told it had already seen battle … it came from a time before the Numenoreans had turned into a civilization
Damn, I’m glad all y’all finally figured out where I’ve been and decided to join me! 🙂
You know how it goes, sometimes guys just need to measure their dicks to see whose is the biggest, or conversely, which one has the teeny weeny peeny. 😉
Alex G,
That is knowledge unlucky wimsey
You have no idea what are you talking about…. They couldn’t have broke the gate. They didn’t have the tools and the Mammoths for such an operation. Stop defending the show with retarded arguments. You actually only make the show look worse. Do not make stupid excuses when there shouldn’t even be one. I mean, Throne opened the gate because jons loyalists would have been against and a war of factions would have started there. So no plot hole here.
You mihnea are stupid though. Can’t you just shut up? You try to defend the show but you make it only look worse. You really don’t have the IQ to defend it.
YES!
Wimsey,
I have to disagree, the Dany miracle was an example of exactly what I propose.
Molestown bastard,
Your user name is fine (mine was after my cat). Would a Molestown bastard be a Snow? You’d be in good company! I think the problem Sue has is people using more than one name at once, so if you really want to change it use a new one with something like “formerly Molestown bastard” included so people know it’s still you. I think A Touch of Frost is from vaguely around your neck of the woods, although probably a bit further north, Derby/Nottingham way? 🙂
Lulus Mum,
Maybe I should change my name to something a bit cleaner then!!! It must be GOT related and original so I’m going to have to get my thinking cap on. Yeah Nottingham is about a 30 minute drive for me I’m in between Leicester and Northampton but it’s nice to know I’m not the only fanboy/girl round here lol
I guess most of you already know, but if you don’t, Just look at the game of thrones IMDB. That should give you the answer to Jon Snow’s fate…
Kit’s new standard reply is he’ll be back as a corpse but he won’t say for how many episodes. If he is dead & not coming back, why does the number of episodes matter?
Please do not use “gay” as a term of insult here. Not cool at all.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3249408/EXCLUSIVE-SPOILER-ALERT-Kit-Harington-spotted-filming-Game-Thrones-set-Belfast-Jon-Snow-alive.html You can that Jon is in Stark outfit and near him on that set is a Bolton cross.Do you see it?This is evidence that Jon will not be a corpse for long :))