The Fall of Viserion

Viserion

In Westeros, dragons are the end all and be all of power. Aegon the Conqueror only is known as “the conqueror” because he and his sisters landed in the Blackwater Rush with three dragons. Aegon’s ground forces were puny in comparison to kings like Harren Hoare, Torrhen Stark, Mern Gardener and Loren Lannister. But Aegon and his sisters’ dragons Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar burned away armies and fortifications and forced kings to surrender their crowns. At the end of Game of Thrones season 7 the White Walkers and the army of the dead have acquired that same overwhelming power through the fallen dragon Viserion. But Viserion is not a normal dragon, he’s been raised into the ranks of the White Walkers and gained their own inherent strengths. How can the living ever hope to stop this fantasy Voltron of ultimate power?

Dragons are incredibly powerful and extremely difficult to kill. Their scales and hides are extraordinarily tough once they are full grown. They resist arrows, swords, fire, and are bristling with razor-sharp claws, teeth and of course their ability to roast armies alive on the counterattack. How could they ever be taken down by mere humans? The books give us a few hints from the history of Westeros and beyond about how dragons in the past have been slain.

The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as tough as those along a dragon’s back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. “Death comes out of the dragon’s mouth,” Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, “but death does not go in that way.” – A Dance With Dragons, Tyrion XI

A unique problem with Viserion is that he has been changed into a White Walker himself which grants him additional protections. White Walkers are immune to normal forms of death. They freeze blades until they shatter, move with inhuman speeds, and have no need for breathing or food.

Fire doesn’t seem to deter them either; as we see from the show the White Walkers have strolled through blazing fires unfazed. There’s a possibility that the intense heat of dragon flame would kill a White Walker, although Viserion himself breathes fire after being raised and doesn’t seem harmed by it own flames, nor is the Night King.

They really are only susceptible to two things: dragonglass and Valyrian steel. Being touched by the metal or volcanic glass makes the Walker shatter and melt away almost instantly, their version of kryptonite. So we really only have the weaknesses to dragonglass and Valyrian steel, which are magical in nature, and maybe being shot through the eye as our options. Keeping these weaknesses in mind, let’s go through some ways you could take the beast down.

drogon

1. Other dragons

Overwhelmingly, the most common way the named dragons have died is at the claws and teeth of other dragons. Of the 29 named dragons, 11 of them died that way and in brutal fashion. Wings ripped off, necks torn open, stomachs opened by claws, and more. Dragon on dragon combat reduced the number of living dragons at the beginning of the Targaryen civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons drastically. The enormous loss of dragon firepower began the slow decline of Targaryen power into the current times.

George R.R. Martin has previously written dragon on dragon combat in the past, and it is brutal. From his novella The Princess and the Queen, we get this,

The attack came sudden as a thunderbolt. Caraxes dove down upon Vhagar with a piercing shriek that was heard a dozen miles away, cloaked by the glare of the setting sun on Prince Aemond’s blind side. The Blood Wyrm slammed into the older dragon with terrible force.

The combat is terrible, and shows us exactly how Viserion, the smallest of the three dragons, could easily be overwhelmed by its larger older siblings. But Viserion, according to the show, has been turned into a White Walker meaning that superior size and numbers may not be enough. Especially since Viserion destroyed the Wall in one long breath, its powers and strength may have increased dramatically. There’s a better example we can look at though. In the 1980 novella The Ice Dragon, GRRM gives us almost this exact scenario. One ice dragon fighting against two normal fire breathing dragons.

The blood-colored dragon flew too close, and the breath of the ice dragon blasted the rider. His bare chest turned blue before Adara’s eyes, and moisture condensed on him in an instant, covering him with frost. He screamed, and died, and fell from his moun, though the harness had remianed behind, frozen to the neck of his dragon. The ice dragon dragon closed on it, wings screaming the secret song of winter, and a blast of flame met a blast of cold. The ice dragon shuddered once again, and twisted away, dripping. The other dragon died.

This could be how it ends up going down. All three siblings killing each other in one final battle that leaves the world without the song of dragons once again, maybe for good. Although, they may be ineffective against the White Walker version of Viserion. Ripping out the throat of a being that no longer needs to breathe or blood to stay alive isn’t a great strategy. They could perhaps pull off Viserion’s wings or dismember him so that he is unable to fly or move effectively and then a brooding hero with a Valyrian steel sword stabs the beast ending it.

It is only because we see the dragon through the eyes of a little girl who is possessed by cold and winter itself that we see it as beautiful and majestic. In Game of Thrones we are lacking that perspective, how the White Walkers see Viserion, and that creates the expectation that Viserion is a villain that must fall. In The Ice Dragon, the death of the dragon is met with sadness from the main character Adara but also relief, that her strange connection with the dragon and winter has ended. Much like Adara, Danerys will surely feel complex emotions if she sees her “child” die again but perhaps similar relief that the nightmare is ending.

King's Landing Dragonpit 7x07 (4)

2. Enclosed spaces

The second most common way that dragons have died was in one night near the End of the Dance of the Dragons. The Dragonpit, that large arena last season where the summit of the various kings and queens in Season 7 was held, once was the home of the Targaryen dragons. Riots broke out in King’s Landing and a man known as “the Shepherd” led a mob thousands strong into the Dragonpit. He had whipped them up with religious fervor, proclaiming that the dragons were demons and the Targaryens the heathens that worshipped them. The mob went into the pit and with pitchforks, spears, swords, and whatever else they could find they killed every dragon inside for their Shepherd. How you ask? Because the pit used to have a dome over it and these dragons were smaller. With no escape route and lacking the strength to fight off all the people at once, the dragons were cut down one by one.

In principle, this could work for Viserion as well. If for whatever reason the dragon found itself underground again like in Meereen or prevented from flying away, conceivably you could stab it in the eyes. However, you would need specifically obsidian or Valyrian steel weapons for this to work. And there’s the complicating factor of the foot soldiers of the White Walkers that would make such a trap very dangerous. While you’re charging Viserion, the undead wights charge at you as well. And there may even be a silent blue King hurling spears your way. In the past of Westeros this tactic has been incredibly successful at slaughtering dragons, so it’s something to keep in mind as Viserion begins assaulting places like Winterfell with it’s large crypts and halls that could trap a dragon maybe long enough for a heroic sacrifice.

Bronn Scorpion Drogon Spoils of War 704

3. Qyburn’s Scorpion/Crossbows

In the Loot Train battle of last season, the power of Qyburn’s scorpion weapon was showed off. Drogon took a serious hit from the siege engine in the side and very nearly fell to its death with Dany. This is a way that in the past humans have killed dragons as well. Rhaenys, wife of Aegon the Conqueror and rider of Meraxes, was shot down out the sky in the same way.

It was at Hellholt where the Dornish had their greatest success against the Targaryens. A bolt from a scorpion pierced the eye of Meraxes, and the great dragon and the queen who rode upon it fell from the sky. In her death throes, the dragon destroyed the castle’s highest tower and part of the curtain wall. Queen Rhaenys’s body was never returned to King’s Landing.

There’s also the dragon Vermax ridden by Prince Jacaerys Velaryon who is rumored to have died by crossbow bolt in the Battle in the Gullet. The dragon flew too low to the fleet of the Greens, and then unexpectedly fell into the sea taking its rider Jacaerys into the deep with it. While it’s unknown what exactly killed Vermax, an arrow or scorpion bolt into an eye would fit the bill.

This is possible for Viserion as well as long as you replace the normal heads of the bolts with dragonglass or Valyrian steel. As discussed above, normal weapons won’t kill Viserion anymore.

The problem comes in actually hitting a flying dragon. As we saw with Bronn, firing these weapons under duress with pinpoint accuracy is incredibly difficult. If the White Walkers or Viserion see what you are up to you may be dead before you even get one shot off. They may even throw ice javelins impossibly far right back at you.

However, the show did give us this explicit possibility for a reason beyond wounding Drogon in battle. Planting a “Chekhov’s gun” or scorpion like this is a classic storytelling device where the writers inject in the minds of the audience an idea. To quote Anton Chekov,

If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired.

For our purposes, the gun is the scorpion technology. And now that a dragon is the explicit enemy of our heroes, that introduced technology looms large as a glaring possibility waiting to be fired.

Night King Beyond the Wall

4. Kill the Night King

The simplest one may just be killing the Night King who converted the dragon into a White Walker. As we saw last season when Jon killed a White Walker with Longclaw, killing a White Walker also kills their servants, as the wights collapsed without their master. The very same may happen if you kill the Night King: all those he raised into his service and undeath die with him. Although since getting to the Night King likely means going through his dragon first, this may be a theoretical and not proactive practical plan.

bran weirwood tree

5. Weirwood arrows

This last possibility is one hinted at in the books and not shown to work, but an option that shouldn’t be ignored. Aegon the Conqueror, after taking the Southern kingdoms save for Dorne, marched his army and dragons North to meet the King of Winter, Torrhen Stark, at the Trident in battle. Torrhen heard ahead of time of the massacre known as the Field of Fire where Aegon and his sisters from dragonback roasted 4,000 men of the Reach and Westerlands alive then killed another 1,000 in combat in victory. He also saw the army of the Conqueror, now 45,000 men strong along with the three dragons, and rethought meeting them in combat. Some of the Northern lords urged him to surrender, others wanted war anyways against the dragons to die in a blaze of glory, but it was Torrhen’s bastard brother Brandon Snow who had the most interesting option.

The king’s bastard brother Brandon Snow offered to cross the Trident alone under cover of darkness, to slay the dragons whilst they slept. – TWOIAF. Reign of Dragons: The Conquest

How could one Northerner think that they could slay three dragons on their own without being stopped? Certainly not by running up and stabbing them, after the first one went down the cry would go up and Brandon would be caught. There’s not a good way of poisoning them either, as it’s unlikely that the Starks would even know what the dragons ate. And being at night, the dragons would be sleeping so their eyes would be closed. So how could he do it? The hint comes from Bran’s weirwood vision.

A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. – A Dance With Dragons, Bran III

Three branches, three dragons. This vision’s place in the scenes shown place it right in the correct time frame for the pale, dark-eyed youth being Brandon Snow. Brandon may have planned to fire off the three weirwood arrows at once at the dragons, and expected them to kill the beasts. This isn’t the only time arrows from weirwoods would kill a “dragon” either. At the battle of Redgrass Field, Daemon Blackfyre and his sons were also cut down by a shower of arrows fired from weirwood bows at the command of Lord Brynden Rivers, the man who would become later Bran’s teacher in the cave.

And there was his mortal error, for the Raven’s Teeth had gained the top of Weeping Ridge, and Bloodraven saw his half brother’s royal standard three hundred yards away, and Daemon and his sons beneath it. He slew Aegon first, the elder of the twins, for he knew that Daemon would never leave the boy whilst warmth lingered in his body, though white shafts fell like rain. Nor did he, though seven arrows pierced him, driven as much by sorcery as by Bloodraven’s bow. Young Aemon took up Blackfyre when the blade slipped from his dying father’s fingers, so Bloodraven slew him, too, the younger of the twins. Thus perished the black dragon and his sons. – The Sworn Sword

For some reason it is being repeated for us that weirwoods are thought to slay dragons. Certainly Brandon Snow bet his life on it with his offer of assassination. And it may work even better on Viserion, given the origin of the White Walkers. The White Walkers are made by the Children of the Forest, who draw their powers from the weirwoods. Perhaps, a piece of that power could kill a White Walker dragon dead with one shot. This is the most speculative of the possibilities for sure, however it is the one I would personally like seeing on the screen the most. The Old Gods slaying their own out-of-control creations with a sacrifice of their own trees would be a poignant ending.

Sadly though, Brandon never shot any arrows at the dragon and Torrhen knelt and gave up his crown. So this is by far the most tinfoily and speculative of the options presented.

I expect the combat from the Ice Dragon will be most likely how we see Viserion fall. It’ll be the most visually impressive, the most heart wrenching as the siblings rip each other apart, and gives the most opportunity for our heroes to show off their skills and knowledge. Danerys on Drogon, Jon or Tyrion on Rhaegal, and the sword Longclaw featuring prominently. George has even given us an example  for how the dragonrider combat may go in the battle above the Gods eye between Prince Daemon Targaryen and Aemond One-Eye.

And it was then, the tales tell us, that Prince Daemon Targaryen swung a leg over his saddle and leapt from one dragon to the other. In his hand was Dark Sister, the sword of Queen Visenya. As Aemond One-Eye looked up in terror, fumbling with the chains that bound him to his saddle, Daemon ripped off his nephew’s helm and drove the sword down into his blind eye, so hard the point came out the back of the young prince’s throat. Half a heartbeat later, the dragons struck the lake, sending up a gout of water so high that it was said to have been as tall as Kingspyre Tower.

While Aemond, Ceraxes, and Vhagar all died afterwards, there are rumors that Daemon survived the fall and lived a quiet life out of sight with his lover. Should our heroes fall similarly with their dragons into a lake or the ocean, don’t be surprised if there is a Dark Knight Rises style post credits sequence.

 

Which of these possibilities do you favor and why is it Brandon Snow? Which other possibilities have you thought of how Viserion falls?

94 responses

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    1. I thought that Vierion was a dragon Wight and not a walker. I mean he was raised after he was dead like the wildlings at Hard home. Whereas the White Walkers are created by sorcery from living humans like the NK and Craster’s babies.

      Wasn’t also Aegon III dragon killed at the Battle of the Gullet?

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    2. Eonwe,
      It is kind of hard to distinguish isn’t it. His flesh was decaying (seemingly more quickly than it should) which doesn’t happen to WW, but then again, if he was truly just an animated dead dragon wouldn’t he be unable to produce the icy flame…? One thing I won’t agree to is that he’s the same as an Ice Dragon since they were a separate, larger species than the Valyrian dragons.

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    3. Eonwe: I thought that Vierion was a dragon Wight and not a walker. I mean he was raised after he was dead like the wildlings at Hard home. Whereas the White Walkers are created by sorcery from living humans like the NK and Craster’s babies.

      The script that they submitted to the Emmy’s describes Viserion as an Ice Dragon. And that the Night King has done to Viserion the same thing he did to Craster’s sons.

      Source:
      https://imgur.com/a/F76aXjO
      The Script:
      http://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/collateral/118%20Game%20Of%20Thrones%20-%20The%20Dragon%20and%20the%20Wolf.pdf

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    4. Viserion is a wight. How else do you explain his rotting wings as he and The Night King are flying towards The Wall? If the dragon is now a White Walker, his body would be intact. Also, as far as we know, White Walkers are living beings. If the Night King was turning Craster’s sons into White Walkers (we still don’t know if that is the case), they needed to be alive for the transformation. Wights are re-animated dead and Viserion was quite dead.

      Sidenote: In an interview quite some time ago, someone asked Martin how White Walkers control the dead and were they somehow warging into the bodies. Martin refused to answer the question. I imagine if that is the case, and the Night King is over 8,000 years old, he would be a pretty powerful warg. Now if we can just figure out if the man who became The Night King was already a warg, or did he receive the power through his creation…hmm. 😉

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    5. It looked like he was raised like a wight but for one difference. The night king touched his hand to Viserion to rise. At Hardholme, he just raised his arms and the wights rose up (i.e. not physical contact). We saw the Night King touch the baby and turn it’s eyes blue previously, so maybe physical contact is different.

      I think Viserion meets his end with the death of the Night King. Maybe only after killing Drogon and Rhaegal as suggested/hinted at above leaving us with none.

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    6. Jay Targ,

      Well that sort of answer the doubts but the script telling us one thing while the visuals tells other certainly doesn´t help.

      Fire and Blood have to answer how Syrax died since the actuals accounts are murky at best.

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    7. Eonwe: Well that sort of answer the doubts but the script telling us one thing while the visuals tells other certainly doesn´t help.

      I think the visual effects department had different ideas about how Viserion should have looked. Joe Bauer, the VFX supervisor, said that the initial plan was to have him look more like the NK but D&D thought it was ‘too fantastical’ so they scrapped it.

      Sources:
      https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-secrets_us_5b9691d2e4b0511db3e4c8d4

      http://vfxvoice.com/from-fire-to-ice-season-7s-game-of-thrones-dragons/

      Eonwe: Fire and Blood have to answer how Syrax died since the actuals accounts are murky at best.

      Yeah, I think it will.

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    8. First, Neither the Others nor Wights can cross water. even in Winter, rivers still flow, and winter just started. Destroy the Kingsroad bridges at the Last River and Long Lake and you’ve cut off the 100k army from invading anything west of the White Knife….which they would need to do to get to the rest of Westeros.

      This isn’t a permenant solution, just one to stall them long enough to funnel them into the place you are going to wipe them out.

      get tons of Dragonglass and wildfire and use it on the ground like mines, hidden under snow, so when the wights/WW walk over them, they die, allowing you to funnel them into an enclosed space.

      use wildfire to set the adjacent forests on fire to deny them access. the heat might help funnel undead Visarion too.

      build a metric fuckton of scorpions firing dragonglass tipped weirwood bolts for the dragons.

      build a metric fuckton of catapults to hurl thousands of pieces of dragon glass, or some kind of cannon shot full of wildfire.

      forget the horses. you need infantry, either in Greek Phallanx or Roman Legion Manipular formation with long spears, or roman style shields and dragonglass knives like Jon’s.

      behind them, everyone else gets a bow and dragonglass tipped arrows.

      if they come down the Kingsroad, set all of this up at the spot between the Northern Mountains and Long Lake where the environment already creates a natural funnel. Maybe break up the forces of the Vale and the North into one army, the Dothraki, Unsullied and Essosi Sellswords in another. one group stays on the Kingsroad at the narrow point between mountains and lake, the other held in reserve to swing around long lake and assault from the flank.

      cut lots of holes in the ice of long lake to prevent the Dead from crossing, maybe mine it with Wildfire kegs you can light quickly from the shores.

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    9. I bet we see Jon Snow ride a dragon that his brother warged into… and Jon will be wielding Longclaw. As they get close, Jon stands up on the back of the dragon, unsheathes his sword, and waits for the perfect moment to leap.

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    10. Ian,

      I don´t think that cutting the roads is an effective tactic. The King´s Road may be the fastest way south but the north is so huge that they surely can take another path even if it took a longer time. They walkers have waited 8000 years. Surely they can wait a few weeks.

      The only true chokepoint is the neck.

      As for infantry tactics. I think that pikemen like the swiss or the spanish infantry with bows and crossbows forming squares would be more effective.

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    11. Eonwe,

      Eonwe,

      cutting the bridges doesn’t stop them, it slows them down and funnels them since they cannot cross liquid water. Once it’s frozen, all bets are off.

      Swiss Pikemen and Spanish squares are excellent ideas, but given Westerosi are supposed to be a mid-late medieval society, I chose to use older highly effective tactics. Swiss Pikemen and Spanish Tercios were Late Medieval/Early Rennaisance and require Musketeers and Grenadiers…Which would totally help slaughter the Dead, but as they don’t exist as far as we’ve seen on Planetos, not useful here.

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    12. Ian,
      So perhaps it could be possible to slow/delay the wights coming from the Wall. What’s stopping the NK from taking a couple of his generals on Viserion, flying south to unprepared population, killing tons of them and raising a second battalion?

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    13. Clob,

      You put the Last Greenseer, Bran Stark, in the middle of the army in between the Northern Mountains and Long Lake. The Night King will make a run for him.

      Thats why you set the Forests on fire with Wildfire and have metric fucktons of Scorpions, catapults, etc.

      On Drogon and Rhaegal you have several Bowmen each, with 150-200lb Weirwood Longbows, and weirwood arrows tipped with dragonglass.

      How do we interfere with the Night King’s Greensight? is there anything we can use to mess that up? Maybe Mellisandre has something she can use? Lure the Nightking to Bran, hit him and bran at the same time when they are close with some kind of anti-greensite ambush even if its just temporary, hit undead Visarion and NK with everything you have, wildfire, dragonglass, dragon fire, Valyrian Steel, even the toilet from the Stark privy at Winterfell.

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    14. Ian,

      the Reason we want to slow them down is so we can evacuate everyone and everything north of the Neck. probably want to send some dothraki cavalry parties to go set graveyards on fire with wildfire, stick dragonglass into any corpses, etc…..

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    15. Eonwe:
      I thought that Vierion was a dragon Wight and not a walker. I mean he was raised after he was dead like the wildlings at Hard home. Whereas the White Walkers are created by sorcery from living humans like the NK and Craster’s babies.

      Wasn’t also Aegon III dragon killed at the Battle of the Gullet?

      With the show canon about how wights and white walkers can both be killed by dragonglass and valyrian steel, in the end it doesn’t make a huge difference IMO. Both types of horror offer similar resistances to death. It would add maybe fire on the table as being able to kill Viserion, but even then he can breath fire so it seems unlikely.

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    16. GeekFurious:
      I bet we see Jon Snow ride a dragon that his brother warged into… and Jon will be wielding Longclaw. As they get close, Jon stands up on the back of the dragon, unsheathes his sword, and waits for the perfect moment to leap.

      I like it, like he’s surfing on a dragon. Flashbacks to the tsunami episode of Pokemon when they jump off a massive wave to plant a flag on the rock. Personally, Battle over the God’s Eye scenario makes the most sense to me especially as a visual medium.

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    17. Jay Targ: The script that they submitted to the Emmy’s describes Viserion as an Ice Dragon.And that the Night King has done to Viserion the same thing he did to Craster’s sons.

      Source:
      https://imgur.com/a/F76aXjO
      The Script:
      http://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/collateral/118%20Game%20Of%20Thrones%20-%20The%20Dragon%20and%20the%20Wolf.pdf

      Correct! That’s what I’m referencing. For better or for worse, that’s what the show thinks so I took that as my starting point. Wight or white walker doesn’t make a huge difference in the show anyway for physical weakpoints.

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    18. Hey guys,long time lurker here….first time commenting!!! Gosh the scene where poor Viserion falls outta the sky probably upset me more to watch than any of the other (many) tragic scenes in the series

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    19. Jay Targ,

      What the hell looked Vyserion´s discarded design like to be rejected as “too much fantasy”? We already have fire breathing flying lizards the size of a boeing. Did they make their own version of Syndragosa?

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    20. JoeMagician,

      Watching the stunts Jon Snow has been lately pulling, jumping from a flying dragon to another got high chances of happening. Bonus points for the whole Uncle/Aunt – Niece/Nephew incest. Extra bonus point if Jon says a killing oneliner like Daemon Targaryen.

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    21. Ser Ribald Japes:
      Hey guys,long time lurker here….first time commenting!!! Gosh the scene where poor Viserion falls outta the sky probably upset me more to watch than any of the other (many) tragic scenes in the series

      Welcome Ser Ribald! Dany may have to see that happen twice, or all of her children fall fighting each other. Heart breaking, perhaps she’ll let out a cry that will crack the moon.

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    22. Eonwe:
      JoeMagician,

      Watching the stunts Jon Snow has been lately pulling, jumping from a flying dragon to another got high chances of happening. Bonus points for the whole Uncle/Aunt – Niece/Nephew incest. Extra bonus point if Jon says a killing oneliner like Daemon Targaryen.

      Ahh I haven’t been keeping up with set news, I’m glad that lines up well with the scuttlebutt. Remember, as a wight even if Jon goes down with the dragons over water he probably won’t drown. Walk back out Pirates of the Caribbean style.

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    23. JoeMagician,

      After thinking about… I’d like the version of a fight between the three dragons best. Not only for great fuss, more because I think, this is a job for the likes of them.
      There will be too much confusion and chaos in mankind with fighting the AotD and each other simultaniously, they would have no time, no head, no idea, no suitable weappon to deal with blue-eyed Viserion. They are not used to magic anymore, have forgotten, how to deal with dragons at all; dragons were only fantasymonsters in Ol’ Nan’s fairytails. So are WW, wights and long lasting winters.
      And when mankind realise -: chaos and destruction.
      The dragons have to and will sacrify themselves, I think.

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    24. I kind of feel that the chances are fairly good that Drogon will end up killing Viserion somehow because Drogon killed Viserys.

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    25. Fashion Heartsbane into the tip of a Scorpion bolt and that sucker will shatter wight-Viserion upon contact. Get to it, Gendry!

      Whatever resistance the humans mount in the field will be overcome, because thematically the living can’t physically defeat the dead. (I’m hoping for a “last stand” at Wolf 359 — oops, I meant MOAT CAILIN!!! — which is swept away by blue dragon fire in a spectacular battle – by which I meant “slaughter”.)

      Bran needs to place his mark upon the NK in a greenseer visionary battle, so that Sam the Slayer can remove the shard of dragon glass from the NK’s chest. Poof, end of the WW and AoTD.

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    26. Eonwe,

      That’s what I thought – that Viserion was raised from the dead as a wight. Supporting this is his raggedy, torn wings. The White Walkers show no sign of physical deterioration or decomposition.

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    27. I can’t say I’m overly fussed about the dragons, I prefer the human characters, but at this point I fully expect Viserion to be killed by Drogon. Viserion may kill Rhaegal (assuming Jon never rides him) first though. Alternatively Viserion may die when the Nights King is killed then Drogon and Rhaegal fight each other assuming we get the second dance of dragons between Jon and Dany. I expect Drogon to be the last to die of the three though.

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    28. Enharmony1625:
      I kind of feel that the chances are fairly good that Drogon will end up killing Viserion somehow because Drogon killed Viserys.

      By melting Bronn’s spilled gold from S7e4, and pouring it on Viserion’s head?

      (I still feel bad that Bronn lost his gold just moments after getting it. On the other hand, I appreciate the “subversion of the trope”: 99 times out of 100, when a character delays his escape in order to retrieve the loot or pick it up when he drops it, he gets killed.
      PS Off-off-topic: I still wonder if that shot of Bronn’s bag of gold spilling open on the ground was an homage to Tuco’s bag of gold splitting open in the closing scene of “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly,” )

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    29. As far as the dragons are concerned, set photos we saw linked here (from Red Priestess and others)…

      at least one of the dragons appears to be alive long to attack KL, which I think we’re assuming is probably the final big battle location of the series. Do we think it’s likely that Undead-Viserion AND Drogon (and/or Rhaegal) make it through the earlier battles and both (or all) get to KL? Or, is it more probable that ONLY Viserion OR one of the living ones gets that far? I’d lean toward one or the other…

      I’m conflicted on which dragon I think will be the last remaining. It kind of makes sense in thought for Viserion to be the last with the living feeling overwhelmed with facing a dragon without any to oppose it. With that scenario of course one has to assume that killing the NK will render Viserion a corpse. ‘Neat and tidy’ the dragons are assumed to be extinct again. If Drogon and/or Rhaegal are the last then he/they would need to be killed in another fashion toward the end. Of course I’m one of those that would prefer the creatures like dragons remain at the end of the story. I’d like my thoughts of the future of their world to still have the fantasy elements within.

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    30. Ten Bears: I still wonder if that shot of Bronn’s bag of gold spilling open on the ground was an homage to Tuco’s bag of gold splitting open in the closing scene of “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly,”

      With Bronn getting up and screaming at Jaime, “Hey Blonde!! You know what you are!! Just a dang son of a b*%&#!!” wha wha whaaa

        Quote  Reply

    31. Clob,

      Martin´s dragons are like Tolkien´s dragons. Mass living destruction weapons (whithout Smaug charisma or Ancalagon size).

      PD: I forgot that sneaky bastard of Glaurung.

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    32. Eonwe,
      That doesn’t change my desire. 🙂
      Whether the remaining dragon(s) has a bonded rider and is then somewhat controllable or free of a bond and flies off to who knows where at the end, I’d like to leave the world with the thought that they still exist. If they’re all killed I’d accept at least seeing a clutch of eggs being found by someone at the end.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Clob:
      As far as the dragons are concerned, set photos we saw linked here (from Red Priestess and others)…

      I’m conflicted on which dragon I think will be the last remaining.It kind of makes sense in thought for Viserion to be the last with the living feeling overwhelmed with facing a dragon without any to oppose it.With that scenario of course one has to assume that killing the NK will render Viserion a corpse.‘Neat and tidy’ the dragons are assumed to be extinct again.If Drogon and/or Rhaegal are the last then he/they would need to be killed in another fashion toward the end.Of course I’m one of those that would prefer the creatures like dragons remain at the end of the story.I’d like my thoughts of the future of their world to still have the fantasy elements within.

      There’s a real chance Martin and the show are going for a Lotr style “End of The age of magic” ending. But rather a sad procession of elves leaving, it’s more like magical forces blowing each other out of existence.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Clob,

      There were wilds dragons before and after the Dance.

      The cannibal a nice dude who hunted his own species, specially hatchlings.

      Sheepstealer who kept doing to Dragonstone smallfolk what his name means.

      Silverwing, queen Alysanne dragon and supposed mate of Vermythor (Jaehaerys dragon) who turned quite wild and savage.

      What is really unsettling about valyrians dragons are Barth´s words. They are not natural. They are the mixing of two species. Southoryos wyrms and the fire wyrms of the depths of Valyria´s fourteens flame. And is quite possible that fire and blood magic were involved.

      And it would set the parllels between the Others/Ice and Dragons/Fire as magic weapons.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Viserion is part on my latest Azor Ahai Theory

      Jon Snow is Azor Ahai – To make Lightbringer – “The Princess that was promised”

      1 – Daenerys flew her dragons beyond the wall to save Jon (Azor Ahai). One of Daenerys children Viserion died and fell into the Water – 1st failure

      2 – Jon and Daenerys went to Kings Landing to convince Cersei The Lions Heart that the Night King and wights are real. Jon wouldn’t lie to make a deal… Everyone is ****ed – 2nd Failure

      3 – Jon Snow unwillingly stabs his future wife in the her heart by being Aegon Targaryen – Daenerys Targaryen was not “born to Rule the Seven Kingdoms”

      Jon Snow was

        Quote  Reply

    36. Clob,

      Apologies in advance: Now I’m stuck in a GoT/GB&U mash-up loop, picturing idiots about to hang Sandor for a crime he didn’t commit – when all of a sudden, an arrow zings through the air from far away, bisecting the rope and freeing Sandor. Camera zooms in to a point in the distance: It’s Arya, bow in hand, taking a bow.

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    37. joemagician,

      I think/hope it’ll be magic going dormant: not actively present, but not vanishing forever…though eventually becoming legends and fairy tales.

      Along those lines… F*ck the ice spiders. I wanna see Tyrion lead an army of grumpkins and snarks in S8!

        Quote  Reply

    38. Ten Bears,

      Now that would be something!

      Off-topic/Arya derailment: According to this article, Sophie reveals that she took home a corset from the set, but that Kit and Maisie both took home swords (obviously Longclaw and Needle). Good on you, HBO, for letting them have their iconic weapons!

        Quote  Reply

    39. I’d like to think that this story is partially about the restoration of the Targaryen line. They and their dragons are the coolest elements in that world. I wouldn’t like if they they disappeared entirely. It seem that even when families are slaughtered, some small remnant remains…nobody else is as cruel as the Lannisters were to the Reins and the Tyrells.

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    40. I’d like to think that this story is partially about the restoration of the Targaryen line. They and their dragons are the coolest elements in that world. I wouldn’t like if they they disappeared entirely. It seem that even when families are slaughtered, some small remnant remains…nobody else is as cruel as the Lannisters were to the Reins and the Tyrells.

      firstone: Azor

      Don’t you find that Azor Ahai thing of stabbing a woman in the heart the save the world kind of sexist and macabre? It’s always an innocent woman, a virgin, sacrificed because her blood can purify the world and save everyone. That storyline would not make people happy, especially women and especially in this political climate. I think Jon would sooner die again than kill Dany. That would be a test of his devotion to duty, for sure! But the idea of killing her is so dark and perverse, I can’t see him doing it.

      And who would tell him to do such a monstrous thing? Only Bran and Mel, and maybe Sam come to mind. I cross Sam off the list, because he’s totally devoted to his own Gilly and little Sam, and can’t conceive of him telling Jon to kill Dany and their unborn child. Although Bran has been kind of cold, I don’t see him ordering the execution of a woman Jon loves and his only surviving Targaryen relative. It’s too cruel and would destroy Jon and any remaining familial connection with Bran, forever. Melisandre…well yeah, I could totally see her ordering something like that. The only thing is that she seems to be on side with the dragon queen now. But she does have that ugly history of latching onto leaders and misguiding them to sacrifice people, except, Jon is NO Stannis!

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    41. Enharmony1625: Off-topic/Arya derailment: According to this article, Sophie reveals that she took home a corset from the set, but that Kit and Maisie both took home swords (obviously Longclaw and Needle). Good on you, HBO, for letting them have their iconic weapons!

      I think she was robbed. She should have grabbed the doll that Ned gave her in King’s Landing. But she did adopt one of the dogs. The corset is kind of weird, though, and Sansa didn’t have anything iconic that I can recall.

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    42. Enharmony1625,

      “During a panel moderated by EW’s Tim Stack, Turner also revealed her costars Kit Harington (Jon Snow) and Maise Williams (Arya Stark) both took home swords (appropriately enough). Previously, Williams said she was able to keep her character’s brown jacket.”

      ———–
      Hmmm. I guess Arya will bury her VS dagger so deep into someone’s head they’ll have to bury him with it.

      But Needle… It would be a crime not to let Maisie Williams keep Needle.

      As for Sansa’s corset? I have no clue why Sophie Turner would want that.

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    43. Anon,

      You have clearly misunderstood what firtsone was saying. The stabbing of Nissa Nissa by Azor Ahai means the R+L=J being revealed to all characters. It will means that Jon claim to the IT surpass Dany and that she was never born to rule Westeros.

      As for this being a Targ restoration. George Martin has said that the Starks are the heart of the story. Bryan Cogman placed the Starks above the others families as main characters.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Anon,

      Pre-books fan here.
      Didn’t “Nissa Nissa” aka Mrs. Ahai willingly allow her husband to stab her through the heart to infuse Lightbringer with her life energy or something, since Mr. Ahai’s previous attempts to forge the sword had failed?

      If so, it wouldn’t be “stabbing a woman in the heart to save the world kind of sexist and macabre”; or an example of “it’s always an innocent woman, a virgin, sacrificed because her blood can purify the world and save everyone.” Giving one’s own life for the greater good can be heroic, not misogynistic.

      Still, overall I kind of agree: Enough with the killing of the wife, daughter, girlfriend, mother, fiancé, etc to “energize” the hero to hunt down and take down the bad guys. (I hate that cliche – just like, eg, the cop’s partner one day from retirement must be killed his last day on the job).

      Or in general, the trope that if the hero marries, meets or enters into a romantic relationship with a woman, she will get kidnapped or killed by his enemies. In fact, a recent “feminist” movie that I otherwise enjoyed was ruined for me by resort to that cheap device.

      “Atomic Blonde.” It pissed me off that the young French agent who helped Charlize had to get killed by the bad guys.

      It ruined the movie for me.

      How about for once instead of the innocent woman, it’s the villain who has to be sacrificed because his blood can purify everyone and save the world? How about instead of the girl or woman being the victim, she turns the tables on her sadistic captor without getting raped first? Oh wait, that was done and done beautifully:

      “Freeway”, Reese Witherspoon’s best movie. Such great lines and great delivery, especially when later encountering her would-be rapist, eg: “Holy sh*t Bob! Look who got beat with the ugly stick!” Or when she’s being interviewed by two detectives trying to catch a serial killer: “Well you can all take a big old f*cking cruise ’cause I took care of that piece of sh*t.”

      I’d better stop rambling….

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    45. Ian,

      don’t feel offended but: they shouldn’t give you the command in the defending of Westeros.

      first of all: rivers do freeze in winter. in Siberia, frozen rivers are used as highways. winter is the time local truck drivers have most work. (climate change will make that job a bit more… risky by the end of winter).
      i assume the winter the NK is bringing to be a little bit colder than average Siberian winter. let’s say, at least some do-not-pee-outside degrees colder. so of course rivers will freeze! they come with undead giants, mammoths, the cousin of Tobi the polar bear and maybe even with Siberian truck drivers. a NK who could not make the rivers freeze would be failure in leadership at it’s worst. i don’t think they let the guy fail that silly way.

      also, the idea of using Dragon Glass projectiles en masse has a weak spot: every piece of ammo that doesn’t hit is lost. and i don’t want to hear anyone scream “back to Dragonstone, we need to mine more of the stuff!”

      but i really loved the idea of Dragonglass mines hidden in the snow. it’s absolutely worthless as a defense tactic, because 1) it takes a lot of time to place the things on the ground, 2) maybe the snow will look a bit trampled after the preparation of the trap, so they could as well put up a warning sign “beware of Dragonglass!” – and 3), after the first few Wights have stepped on such spikes and kissed the snow, the White Walkers will know there’s something hidden in their way, and as it happens to be comfortable they have a huge flying snow melter at hand. Viserion will make the hidden obvious, and that was the trap.

      so, no plan with lots of hope for living mankind, as i said. BUT: the inspiration!! hell, i hope they somewhat felt you when filming. because your idea really makes me want to see a White Walker stepping on just one piece of lost Dragonglass.

      “OUCH!!!”
      lifts hurt foot.
      crackles standing on one leg.

      i hope they did this.

      a last one about Swiss Pikesmen: they have been popular as sell-pikes during the time you mentioned, but their beginnings go back to the late 13th century. so no need of musketeers, they’d fit Westeros perfectly. just ask the Boltons!

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    46. to anyone who saw Viserion’s body “decomposing”: nope. his wings have holes because he crushed through ice. that can do some harm to wings.

      i expect him to be a White Walker, ehm… Flyer. which promises interesting goodbye segments after he took down his brothers.

      “hey, sorry for biting your neck, Drogon. but you can still fly, bro. just look… how does that feel?”
      (nose poke)

      “ohh!?! that’s cool! where’s Rhaegal?”

      “over there. just wait, i’ll wake him up.”

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    47. death by chickenfire,

      Sam stole a sh*tload of books from the Citadel. He performed a difficult and dangerous surgical procedure just by reading instructions.

      Surely, Sam will come across some secret formula for weaponizing dragonglass or maybe even making Valyrian Steel. (Please, oh please… I wanna see Needle’s castle-forged steel transformed into Valyrian steel).

      Unless… those ancient books reveal that the WWs aren’t the bad guys after all….

        Quote  Reply

    48. Ten Bears:
      death by chickenfire,

      Sam stole a sh*tload of books from the Citadel. He performed a difficult and dangerous surgical procedure just by reading instructions.

      Surely, Sam will come across some secret formula for weaponizing dragonglass or maybe even making Valyrian Steel. (Please, oh please… I wanna see Needle’s castle-forged steel transformed into Valyrian steel).

      Unless… those ancient books reveal that the WWs aren’t the bad guys after all….

      d’accord. if Little Sam hasn’t already shred the book in which Samwell read about Dragonglass (the one with the picture of a certain dagger), we can expect Sam to be helpful in the development of either Dragonglass weapons or even the production of Valyrian steel.

      still, i wonder how much of the material can the living produce? enough to use it in pellet guns which have not yet been invented? hence my point about waste of ammo.

      the WWs standing in a different light by word of scriptures is a possibility, but don’t forget: they made dead children eat Karsi. don’t make anyone eat Karsi, you hear me bad dead hombres?

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    49. I have a feeling that in the books we’ll get a much different version of Viserion turning. We have Alleras (Oberyn’s daughter) at the Citadel with Sam. She’s supposed to be excellent with a bow. We also have Euron headed for Oldtown.

      I’m expecting that when Viserion has the dragonbinder horn blown that Viserion will fly directly to Euron in Oldtown. Could Alleras be the one to bring down Viserion like her Dornish ancestors brought down Meraxes?

      There’s also the vision of “a great stone beast rising from the ocean by a smoking tower” or something like that. Could this be dead Viserion being raised by the Night King at Oldtown? My personal tinfoil is that Euron is going to Oldtown to learn how to become the King of Kings (Night King)…

      He will find out about a ritual of stabbing someone in the heart with dragonglass and that person becoming the NK. Euron in the books is crazy enough to undergo this procedure to become the King of the largest army known to man. This scenario could also take place at Eastwatch or maybe even Hardhome in a situation similar to the show.

      Also, how unstoppable would Night King Euron be with his Valyrian steel armor that can’t be pierced by Valyrian Steel swords??? That would force our hero (Jon I’m assuming) to turn to another badass blade in Dawn (forged from the heart of a fallen star) to take him down.

      One last bit of book tinfoil is Dany’s vision of her facing a blue eyed king who cast no shadow at the trident (seems like a nod to Stannis). Could we see a scenario where Stannis is tricked into taking Theon to the little Weirwood Island on the lake to be executed but Asha or Theon (being controlled by Bloodraven or Bran) stabs Stannis in the heart with a dragonglass dagger thinking they killed him only to turn him into the eventual Night King (who still hasn’t been seen in the books by the way)? I can see either Euron or Stannis becoming the NK in the books and raising Viserion from either Oldtown, Eastwatch, or Hardhome. Similar to the show but slightly different. Thoughts?

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    50. death by chickenfire,

      • Ha! Wouldn’t that be something if Little Sam got his hands on Sam’s Citadel books and started ripping them apart, defacing them with crayons, making paper airplanes out of pages, tossing them into the fire, chewing them up and eating them, using them to line the ravens’ cages, and all the other things bored little kids do to valuable books.

      I can just picture Sam spending hours and hours poring over thousands of pages of ancient books, until he reaches a book with a 20-page chapter titled “How to Defeat the White Walkers.” He starts reading the first paragraph on p. 945: “The secret to defeating the White Walkers and Army of the Dead is…”, then excitedly turns the page and discovers that … there is no p. 946. Pages. 946 – 963 have been ripped out entirely. All that’s left of p. 964 is the sentence fragment at the top of the page: “…. to minimize the possibility they will ever come back again.” and underneath in the blank space, a stick figure drawing by Little Sam.

      • As for the dragonglass Jon mined at Dragonstone: I thought he said before he left that he had as much as he needed.

      • About dead children eating Karsi: That’s just bad parenting. Dead kids need discipline just like living kids. Those creepy little f*cks were walking around with no supervision.

      Seriously though, they didn’t quite eat Karsi. Though they messed up her face a bit, at the end of “Hardhome” when Wight Karsi sat up she didn’t look too terrible – relatively speaking.
      [I’m just waiting for the first commenter with an ex-girlfriend horror story that concludes “I’d take blue-eyed Wight Karsi over [ex’s name] any day of the week.”
      Oh wait… That would be me. 🤢]

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    51. Ten Bears,

      Will we ever come across wight Karsi or Hodor? Or even Summer? I think it’s admirable that the show hasn’t used any of them in some dramatic callback because it seems so cliche. But it’s still surprising that D&D haven’t used an important character returned as a wight in a more substantial altercation besides Karsi’s brief transformation.

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    52. Aegon the IceDragon,

      “Also, how unstoppable would Night King Euron be with his Valyrian steel armor that can’t be pierced by Valyrian Steel swords???”

      In order to allow movement and joint flexibility, even the best armor leaves some areas exposed. Like the arms-shoulders and helmet-breastplate junctions; or the hand-wrist and knee-leg areas.
      Any fighter has to be able to turn his head and look up and down, necessarily leaving parts of his throat and neck exposed at times. Bronn demonstrated that when he defeated that knight (Ser Verdis?) at Tyrion’s trial by combat at the Vale.

      Gee, I wonder who else we know who has the skill, swiftness and sleight of hand tricks to slice an armored opponent’s neck with a Valyrian Steel dagger? No One I know. 👸🏻

      #ASNAWP

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    53. Aegon the IceDragon,

      I loved Birgitte H-S (Karsi) in “Pitch Perfect 2.” Hard to believe that singing, dancing shade-throwing Kommissar was the brave, no-nonsense Wildling Chieftan in Hardhome.
      I’ve never seen “Borgen” but people rave about her performance in that show.

      I really hope they bring her back for S8. As I recall, for her 20-30 minutes in “Hardhome” Birgitte H-S won WoW Awards Best Guest Actress in a landslide.

      The show really ought to bring back a familiar face like that – along with Red Priestess Kinvara (Ania Bukstein?) who was in one segment of one episode – long enough to spook Varys. I’ve also wondered if we’ve seen the last of Jim Broadbent. I thought he did an excellent job portraying Citadel Maester Ebrose.

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    54. Ten Bears,

      I’m all for Karsi and/or Kinvara coming back. Both were excellent. Also, I’m Team Arya all the way. And she’s most certainly got the skills to find those “weak points”. She’s not the ASNAWP for nothing. When Arya finds out what the NK did to Summer & Hodor, his name is going on the list… And we all know you don’t want to end up on Arya’s (s)hit list. Imagine the NK getting the “Meryn Fucking Trent” with a certain Valyrian steel dagger? She’s known to be thorough in searching for those “weak points”. 😂

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    55. Aegon the IceDragon,

      Also, I’m Team Arya all the way. And she’s most certainly got the skills to find those “weak points”. She’s not the ASNAWP for nothing.”
      ————
      For you and other Team Arya members, you might want to check out this video of an Oct. 9, 2018 interview of Maisie Williams on BBC’s “The One Show.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35byWvShawE

      She’s effervescent and delightful as always. After a brief retrospective of her time on GoT, she talks about rehearsing for her stage debut in the play “I and You”, and of course, then fends off questions about Arya’s fate in S8 and how GoT ends.

      However, there is a nice bonus for Arya fans: At 11:34, she demonstrates the no-look hand-to-hand dagger flip from her scene with Brienne in S7e4.

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    56. Ten Bears,

      Nice! Thanks for posting. I laughed at the part where part of her wishes she could turn around and just spoil the ending for someone. Probably an irritating, obnoxious fan. That’s totally something I would do if I were in a similar position. 🙂

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    57. Ten Bears,

      Maisie is just the best. I can’t wait to see her and The Hound steal the show next year. Honestly, I don’t think Maisie has had a bad scene throughout the entire show. The material may be lacking put her performance is always on point. Just fantastic.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Enharmony1625,

      I was tempted to re-post the link to the Maisie Williams interview video in the Comments section under today’s article, “Kit Harington ditches part of Jon Snow’s signature look!”, about Kit shaving off his beard.

      Because really. if that’s newsworthy, then so is Maisie’s adorable new hairdo in that video.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Eonwe:
      Anon,

      You have clearly misunderstood what firtsone was saying. The stabbing of Nissa Nissa by Azor Ahai means the R+L=J being revealed to all characters. It will means that Jon claim to the IT surpass Dany and that she was never born to rule Westeros.

      As for this being a Targ restoration. George Martin has said that the Starks are the heart of the story. Bryan Cogman placed the Starks above the others families as main characters.

      Well, that’s a murky attempted clarification.

      The Starks are not looking so good on the restoration front, thanks to the Lannisters and Boltons. As of last season, if Bran doesn’t find a mate and procreate, the Stark name is finished. Mating is something Bran is unlikely to do, as he’s now the 3ER. I suppose there is more than one way to be the “heart” of a story, but unless something drastic changes next season, the Starks are in decline, while the Targaryens are ascendant.

      If the Starks want to continue their name, they’ll have to steal babies, like the white walkers do.

      Ned did manage to leave remnants of himself in two babies he sort of stole: Theon and Jon. Otherwise, the Stark name appears finished.

        Quote  Reply

    60. <a

      Ten Bears: Pre-books fan here.
      Didn’t “Nissa Nissa” aka Mrs. Ahai willingly allow her husband to stab her through the heart to infuse Lightbringer with her life energy or something, since Mr. Ahai’s previous attempts to forge the sword had failed?

      If so, it wouldn’t be “stabbing a woman in the heart to save the world kind of sexist and macabre”; or an example of “it’s always an innocent woman, a virgin, sacrificed because her blood can purify the world and save everyone.” Giving one’s own life for the greater good can be heroic, not misogynistic.

      href=”#comment-1571786″>Ten Bears,

      Of course it wouldn’t be misogynistic if people claim that the woman wanted the most gruesome death possible to solve her husband’s problem – which makes me wonder why isn’t SHE the hero for making the ultimate sacrifice, then?

      I sense that the author is warning us not to believe everything we read written by men with skinny arms….or by disgruntled husbands. I mean, who could have possibly known what the wife wanted, did she leave a statement? I think my presumption is that women don’t want to die gruesome deaths. And as for Azor Ahai, there was an easier way to get rid of his wife, it’s called divorce.

      Anyway, I’m not too deep into this Nissa Nissa nonsense. First time I got wind of the story, I averted my eyes and have not looked back at it since. If they pull that BS in the final season, I’ll be rolling my eyes with disgust.

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    61. death by chickenfire,

      Dude, no offense taken in the slightest. This kind of back and forth is how we design a battleplan, ripping ideas to shreds looking for weaknesses and coming up with ideas/perspectives others haven’t thought of yet.

      1) Frozen Rivers: this is a delaying tactic, not a permenent one. in the T.V. show it took a while for the lake to freeze over. you are trying to buy time so you can evacuate the North, possibly funnel them down the kingsroad..It was never going to be permenent solution or a guarantee. you are trying to make them go where you want them to.

      2) dragonglass projectiles: at the Battle of Crecy, 5,000 Longbowmen carrying 60-72 arrows each would fire around 3-4 arrows per minute (max rate for these soldiers was 6 per min., but they would tire out too fast in battle if they tried this) in volleys. this means they’d be carrying about 18 minutes woth of arrows. The rest had to be supplied to them on the front line during the battle.

      before the Battle of Crecy, King Edward had ordered the creation of 2.6 million arrows, which was accomplished within weeks.

      Dragonstone sits upon a ‘mountain’ of Dragonglass. I assume once Jon had permission, he waged an all out mine-the-fuck-outa-this stuff campaign to get ready for the NK, because anything short of making the island sink by 50ft. from obsidian loss would be worthless. the timelines are all fucked, but it wouldn’t be far fetched to think they would do this.

      3) Dragonglass Mines: you get a few wights, possibly Others killed, but the point isn’t killing them. Minefields are area denial;
      you are preventing the enemy from using that ground, and in this case, funneling them into your trap.

      4)Swiss Pikemen; yeah I wasn’t very clear in my posting; the comment about integrated firearms and mele weapons, i.e. halberds, spears, swords, ewtc. was more in reference to the Spanish Tercio, as they were the ones who innovated it successfully, and first.

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    62. Ian,

      Holy cow! Looks like you know about military history and strategy. (I’m not being facetious.)

      I think Jon said he got more than enough dragonglass from Dragonstone.

      Assuming the humans’ battle commander doesn’t abandon the plan and decide to run towards the enemy, how would you design a battle plan to defend against the 100,000-strong AotD currently marching south?

      Keeping in mind that every human casualty means a net gain of +2 for Team NK (- 1 human, +1 wight) how do you engage the enemy without inadvertently strengthening it if lots of your soldiers fall in battle?

      If it’s just a matter of making sh*tloads of Dragonglass-tipped arrows… that won’t make for much excitement. (Of course, if AotD makes a beeline for KL – where they may have wildfire but don’t have dragonglass – that could get interesting.)

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    63. Ten Bears: Keeping in mind that every human casualty means a net gain of +2 for Team NK (- 1 human, +1 wight) how do you engage the enemy without inadvertently strengthening it if lots of your soldiers fall in battle?

      That’s a problem they might have with those not properly equipped and/or not aware of the need to use dragonglass if the NK does advance and spread well into the southern regions. You’d think everyone would be notified via raven, but then again, most probably still aren’t going to believe the “stories” and not spread the word until too late. Those without dragonglass are essentially going to have to kill each wight twice in hand-to-hand combat; cut ’em down first and then light ’em up.

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    64. Clob,

      I’m just waiting for Bronn’s prediction about the perils of flinging pots of wildfire at the enemy (in the scene in S2e5, I think, when Bronn and Tyrion visit Pyromancer Hallyne and commandeered Cersei’s wildfire stash) to come true in S8. Bronn warned that in the confusion of battles, soldiers would wind up accidentally spilling pots of wildfire, so that [paraphrasing] “the poor c*nts trying to save the city end up burning it down.”

      To our knowledge, KL has no dragonglass. But it does have the Alchemists Guild and presumably, replenished stores of wildfire. (Cersei and Qyburn both saw that Captured Wight was highly flammable.) All it takes is one clumsy soldier, or one malfunctioning catapult, and KL (or at least the defenders on its walls) starts going up in flames.

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    65. Ten Bears,

      human casualties: wights are susceptible to dragonglass, right? so maybe we stick a sliver or two of it under our soldier’s skin, have them wear a necklace with sharp bits of dragonglass that lightly pierce the skin?

      seems better than dousing them all in wildfire. 🙂

      battleplan: if you just hole up in Winterfell with the 2 dragons and everything else, my guess is the Night King says ‘Fuckit’, sends his army to Winterfell while he flies south to…….The Isle of Faces? Kings Landing? we don’t really know his objectives. Is he coming south to undo what was done to him? if so, I’d expect him to go to the Gods Eye where the Pact was signed to do something to ‘undo’ his ‘Night King-yness’.

      if he’s just coming south to kill everything, I bet he goes to Kings Landing. He can raise enough dead bodies from the recent wars to storm KL, convert 1 million people, including Cersei.

      so I listed my plan in previous posts to use the terrain and area denial tactics like fields of dragonglass ‘mines’, setting the forests on fire with wildfire, and sowing the ground where I want to funnel the AotD on to at the beginning of the battle between the northern Mts. and Long Lake on the Kingsroad. Once we’ve got them there, we hit them with everything. dragonglass, wildfire, and an L shaped ambush consisting of an army marching up the Kings Road from the south, and an army attacking from the southeast and/or performing perimiter watch around the long lake if it’s frozen solid enough to support the AotD.

      I’d use Bran as Bait to lure the NK and his army to that spot. One of NK’s objectives is to kill bran, aka the LAst Green-Seer. In order to get them all at once we need to offer him/them tempting enough bait to draw them in. Bran fits that bill.

      we need to engage in Maneuver Warfare, not warfare by attrition. this will be difficult because of the extreme cold and possibly snow/ice, but the only way to win in this scenario is via maneuver, overwhelming surprise and violence of action. the objective has to be to throw everything at the Night King and the Others as fast and as brutally as possible.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_tactics

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    66. I believe the NK is a greenseer. If he is, then I think he could see all of this coming ahead of time and simply plan a preemptive strike, but I don’t know for sure. Haven’t really thought a whole lot about the ins and outs of battle tactics for season 8.

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    67. Mr Derp,

      If the NK isn’t pressed for time, his best strategy is warfare by attrition. He should spread his Others and Wights out evenly across the North just south of the Wall, and advance southward slowly, killing everyone/everything they encounter and raising them from the dead.

      Time is on their side. The Living will grow weaker, run out of food/fuel/water/medicine, etc. And the NK’s army will grow.

      With his forces spread out, there’s no one single place the Living can attack to stop them.

      Fuck, if I was the NK I’d ‘peace out’ while my minions did this and just build myself an ice palace on top of the Wall, wait 10-20 years as my eternal winter and Others/Wights slowly did my work for me.

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    68. Ian,

      Yea, I’d probably attack the most vulnerable people first while the lords hold up in their castles for protection. Keep picking off people and chipping away until you grow your army even larger, eventually forcing those in hiding to come out and fight or face a siege against insurmountable odds. If they stay in hiding, use Viserion to destroy their castles until they’re forced out into the open.

      I guess that’s what I’d do. I really have no idea.

      Plus, since the NK is apparently a greenseer, he can use that to anticipate the opposition’s moves and plan accordingly. This is where Bran vs. the NK is going to be important.

      I think if I was on the other side, based on what we know, I think my strategy would be all about finding a way to get to the NK and kill him. The WW and others are irrelevant if the NK dies. This is where Drogon and Rhaegal would be of the utmost importance. It’s going to be tough to get to the NK while he’s on Viserion without another dragon. Shooting Viserion with the ballista is a possibility too, but I wouldn’t count on that to work. Maybe if they built 100 of them and had each one fixed in the sky at a different location it could work.

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    69. Mr Derp,

      that raises an interesting question; have Danaerys fly Drogon and Rhaegal with Jon, Bran, and as many expert archers you can put on both drgons’ back,s armed with weirwood bows, firing weirwood arrows tipped in Dragonglass.

      Simple Mission; fly Recon with Bran using his greensight and future vision seeing to guide the way. Find, Close with, Maneuver and kill the Night King. Not Viserion, the Night King. give the non archers some wildfire incindiaries to throw once you’ve closed with the enemy.

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    70. Ian,

      Yeah, I’ve figured all along that NK might send a splinter force to WF to keep them occupied while he takes the bulk of his army to KL where 1,000,000 unarmed, unwitting recruits await. Why waste time wandering around the North where the people have dragonglass, dragons and VS weapons – when you can go south and shoot fish in a barrel – and turn those fish into a million undead soldiers?

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    71. Ian,

      I once did rough population density estimates of the North vs. KL based on the dimensions of the North as Roose described it to Ramsey, and Jon’s shipboard conversation with Tyrion comparing the 1 million people packed into KL with the population of the entire North.

      Based on those numbers, the North’s area and population density are comparable to those of Alaska; and KL’s are comparable to San Francisco’s.

      So hypothetically, if you’re NK crossing over a land or ice bridge from Siberia, do you spend months picking off the 1-2 people per square mile in the several small cities and wilderness in the vastness of Alaska (assuming the people haven’t all gathered in one place), or do you head straight for San Francisco where the city is packed with people?

      Or, does NK reach San Francisco, think “hey wait – the Airplane and the Dead used to hang here“, and keep going south until he reaches Los Angeles?

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    72. Ten Bears,

      THat’s exactly what I think the NK will do. He’ll ride Viserion to KL while his AOTD attacks Winterfell/the North.

      To me, no doubt the shadow of a dragon riding over KL that we’ve seen previously is the NK on top of Viserion, and not Dany/Drogon.

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    73. Mr Derp,

      I figure NK can deploy (sacrifice) 10,000 wights plus a couple of WW lieutenants to keep the Northern forces busy while he takes the other 90,000 with him to KL.

      The Northern Alliance prevails after a fierce battle against the AotD splinter force.

      And then, Jon faces a replay of the controversial decision he made as Lord Commander of the NW to implement his Wildling Resettlement Program: He will urge the Northern Alliance to head south to protect the inhabitants of KL, and like before, most of his followers will say “f*ck them and f*ck Cersei; who cares about them?”. Once again, he’ll have to (try to) convince his people that if NK turns 1,000,000 people into wights: Game Over. For everyone.

      Or better yet, how about if Dany and her dragons arrive in KL just as the AotD breaches the city walls and overrun the defenses. What does she do? Roast the AotD – along with all 1,000,000 people to prevent them from being wightened?

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    74. Ten Bears,

      It’s a good question. Somehow, I think the wildfire cache underneath the Red Keep is gonna blow it to smithereens though. Tyrion didn’t mention that wildfire caches still exist underneath the Red Keep for nothing.

      I know some people have said that the show already used wildfire a couple of times so it would be too much of a repeat to do it again, but I don’t feel the same way. It was awesome in Blackwater and The Winds of Winter, so a third time would be just fine by me.

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    75. By the way… fire…
      what about WightViserion’s blue fire?
      It destroyed the Wall somehow, but it didn’t melt it, it rather seemed to pulverize the ice in a kind, how Longklaw and dragonglas pulverized the WW.
      Blue fire seems to generate other effects than yellow or green ones.
      What could that mean, when it comes to breathe blue against living creatures?

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    76. cos alpha,

      Good question. Maybe it shatters people, or freezes them.

      I kinda hope it doesn’t freeze people because it would make me think of Mr Freeze from Batman too much. “Ice to see you!”

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    77. Mr Derp,

      But the pyromancers who were making wildfire for Cersei in S2 until Tyrion commanded it, should be back at work now that Cersei’s back in power. Even if there are still Mad King stashed under the Red Keep, if Cersei sticks to her original plan of flinging pots of (Alchemist Guild-mass produced) wildfire from the city walls, something’s bound to go wrong. Like Bronn warned, all it takes is one accidental spill…

      I’d find it hard to believe that Cersei and Qyburn wouldn’t have the Pyromancers working around the clock to produce wildfire. Someone’s got to burn the city to ashes before the show is over, right? Accidentally or intentionally. my money’s on the Mother of Madness.

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    78. cos alpha,

      I sure hope it means an amazing light show in the night sky: plumes of blue fire and orange fire, explosions of green fire, streams of flaming arrows and burning oil, and all kinds of other illuminated flying objects in the air and crashing to the ground.

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    79. I do think this is possible but if the Nights king does split his forces then you would imagine the big battle everyone expects in Kings Landing in episode 5 would be the humans trying to retake it from home him rather than Cersei? The only spanner in that is the filming we saw in Dubrovnik which shows humans are in control.

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