For most of us, the end of Game of Thrones isn’t coming for more than a year, so there’s still time to prepare for it, but the actors don’t have that luxury; instead, they have a luxury shared by few people in the world: knowing the end of Game of Thrones. But what’s their reaction to it? And how are they coping with the show coming to an end? In a new, very emotional interview, Sophie Turner opens up about all of this and more.
Instead of pointlessly asking about spoilers, The Hollywood Reporter asked Turner about how filming the show for the very last time feels. She describes a mix of emotions: “It’s exciting. Shooting these scenes, knowing how it ends now, finally, after years and years of being kept in anticipation … It’s getting incredibly emotional,” she admits. In particular, the first day of production with the read through of the last six scripts was “very, very bittersweet,” she says. “It was hard. At the end of the very last script, they read aloud, ‘End of Game of Thrones.’ As soon as they read that out, pretty much everyone burst into tears. There was a standing ovation for [showrunners] David Benioff and Dan Weiss. We were all clapping and cheering. It was amazing.”
“I’m getting goosebumps now thinking about it,” she adds, regarding that last table read. “It was a shock to the system. We actually realized, reading that ‘end of Game of Thrones line’, that that was it … It was really sad, but there was an immense amount of pride, too. We realized we had done it. We had created this amazing thing, and that’s it now. It was just a feeling of pride. I was proud of David and Dan, and I was looking around at all of the other cast members around the table, nodding at them, and saying: ‘Well done. We’ve done it.’ It was the craziest feeling. It’s the biggest project we’ll ever do. We’ve put our hearts and souls into it. Saying goodbye to it means putting parts of our hearts and souls behind. But we also know we’ve given it everything that we’ve got.”
Of course, this emotional out-pour isn’t just about the merits of the show, but about the relationships the cast and crew have built along the way: “We started hanging out a lot more often and realizing we shouldn’t really take this for granted. We’re having more dinner parties and making the most of it now,” she reveals. “The final scene we shoot on set could be the final time we ever work together. It’s really difficult and we’re all getting emotional now, thinking about it. The girl who’s done my hair since season one is like an older sister to me. The camera operator is like a father figure to me. It’s going to be very hard. We really are like one big family … It’s been my entire life, really.”
THR couldn’t extract any juicy spoilers from Turner, of course, but she did tease us a bit: “It’s definitely more epic this season,” she claims. “It grows and grows and grows. There are bigger and more fantastical elements, which have always been underlying throughout, but this time, it’s really emerging and there are very big roles this season. But we still very much managed to maintain those human relationships and stories that bring it back to reality and keep it resonating with the audience. The thing with Game of Thrones and the reason why I believe it works so well is we have these fantastic elements, which are balanced so perfectly with the real human elements … There are more relationships formed this season than any other, and more people meeting and more conspiracies and plotting and forming of alliances. We have had to parallel the two, just to insure we keep that balance just right. It’s a special, magic recipe.”
Before you comment, I’d really recommend you read the interview in its entirety, because Sophie gets into much more than the bits we included here. It’s really worth it!
”There are more relationships formed this season than any other”……………………………………………………………….Well…I hope just this doesnt take it seriously by the Jonsa fans..they are a bit crazy/ psychos and they like to make things so tragicomic
There are more relationships formed this season than any other, and more people meeting and more conspiracies and plotting and forming of alliances.
I thought we’ve done with that.
At the end of the very last script, they read aloud, ‘End of Game of Thrones.’ As soon as they read that out, pretty much everyone burst into tears. There was a standing ovation for [showrunners] David Benioff and Dan Weiss. We were all clapping and cheering. It was amazing.”
If only I could be a fly on the wall for that one time. That must’ve been incredible.
That is a good tease – minor spoiler for season 8…
I’d like to see Sansa use her experiences with Arya in season 7 and act like a Faceless Man while interacting with Jon and see Jon sorta freak out like Sansa did with Arya.
Mr Derp,
Hopefully someone filmed all or some of the final read though.
Clips of the final reading would be an awesome bonus on the season 8 blu-ray dics.
I’d love see the actors reacting to all the epic final scenes of the show.
I know it’s a stretch but Sophie saying that for the Wrap-up party “we” (not they) should invite everyone who died on the show says to me that she survives S8. If I come up with my own deadpool, I think I’ll be leaving her off that list. 🙂
Oh good catch. Similarly I noticed that when asked how far along in production they were, she said “We started in October, so we’re maybe like a tenth of the way through. [Laughs.] No, no, we’ve got six or seven months left.” Again, she used “we” – not “the production will go for six or seven more months” or similar language she might use if she was trying to obfuscate on that point.
Yeah, really. I too thought there’d be no time for any more “conspiracies.”
Anyway, I read the entire interview, and Sophie comes off well-spoken and thoughtful. Good for her.
Erica,
Speaking of deadpools… Is it time to start speculating? In particular, by my reckoning (list below) there are 12 characters + 2 direwolves who appeared in the very first episode in Season 1 and are still alive as of the end of Season 7.
Since we’ve got over a year to keep ourselves occupied👿, perhaps at some point we could have an informal contest to see who can predict the ultimate survivors.
Characters from S1e1 (Actors Hired in 2009) Still Alive as of the End of S7:
1. Jon Snow – Kit Harington
2. Arya Stark – Maisie Williams
3. Sansa Stark – Sophie Turner
4. Bran Stark – Isaac Hempstead-Wright
5. Sandor Clegane – Rory McCann
6. Jaime Lannister – Nikoloj Coster-Waldau
7. Cersei Lannister – Lena Headey
8. Tyrion Lannister – Peter Dinklage
9. Daenerys Targaryen – Emilia Clarke
10. Jorah Mormont – Iain Glen
11. Theon Greyjoy – Alfie Allen
12. Illyrio Mopatis – Roger Allam
13. Ghost
14. Nymeria
I know your list is only for S1 Ep1 but I think it would be remiss to leave poor Drogon and Rhaegal off this list….
Well, they did appear…. kinda.
Ten Bears,
From that list at this time I’m going to say everyone lives except Cersei, Jaime and Jorah (in some manner to protect Daenerys). We’ve seen the last of Illyrio I assume. Ghost and Nymeria will probably just not be part of the ending and essentially ignored as the direwolves have been for most of the series. Yeah, probably wishful thinking and against some stuck on that bittersweet thing and it meaning everyone dies, but I just don’t think it’s going to go out with that much carnage. I can see a good number of the other characters biting it though…
I imagine how difficult it can be to say goodbye to an eight-year venture, especially when said eight years were some of the most formative of one’s life… The little ducklings (^^) Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner and Isaac Hempstead-Wright must be very moved by the process.
I might be alone on this one but I am gleefully delighted we are not done with it ^^
A war, be it against a zombie army or human troops, is a political endeavour, especially when it requires several nations to fight alongside one another. The different factions have to agree to obey the same people, to coordinate their efforts, to organise and allocate their ressources. Who gets to decide who does what, where and when… That is intrinsically political.
In the specific case of the war against the White Walkers, the Northern lords have not given their approval to Jon’s decision to bend the knee (and throw away their newly-declared independence). Will they be comfortable obeying Daenerys ? After she burnt two Westerosi nobles who were, for all intents and purposes, defending their homeland against a foreign invasion ? After she lost one of her greatest weapons to the Night’s King thereby accidentally helping him in his endeavour ?
And then there is the matter of Jon’s real lineage…
Furthermore, we cannot forget Cersei. Cersei, in true Richard III fashion, does not really care whether she lives or dies as long as she does so as the monarch. That is why she reneged on the deal she made with Tyrion. And now that everyone is going to the North, she is free to re-conquer the other kingdoms : the Reach, Dorne, the Riverlands and the Vale (she mentioned the Company had elephants and those, thanks to Hannibal’s shot at the Alps, are generally associated with mountain-crossing conquests). So, plotting there shall be ^^
Erica,
I thought about including the dragons as appearing in S1e1 via a fossilized egg exception. (Daeny got the eggs as a wedding gift in E1, right?) But I didn’t want to stir a philosophical debate over when fictitious creatures’ life begins…
ACME,
With whom can Cersei conspire?
Though it’ll never happen (*dons tinfoil hazmat suit 🤖👨🚀*), I’d like to see Cersei, faced with 1,000,000 starving, rebellious residents of KL, conspire with my man Qyburn to institute a military draft to induct 200,000 civilians, or through a volunteer army with promises of all-you-can-eat buffets.
Except once the recruits report to boot camp, Qyburn turns them into Gregor-type superzombies.
Problems solved: She gets 200,000 obedient undead supersoldiers to take on the WW’s undead, or to conquer the seven kingdoms while Daeny and Jon are playing around with the WWs up north.
(*Takes off tinfoil suit*)
OK that’s the best Season 8 far-out speculation that I’ve heard. Scary without being macabre (unlike some that I have).
Those two Westerosi who you said…betray their own family and almost killed their own family member..in a hunting ..They deserved what they get
I’m going to continue to argue that the major political plot this season will be conflict in Winterfell about who is a threat – Cersei or the White Walkers.
After Jaime returns with news that Cersei has betrayed them all, there will definitely be conflict among the leadership about what to do (about both her and Jaime tbh). Jon, as always, will argue that exactly zero resources should be spent protecting their southern border because “I’ve looked into the night kings’ eyes”. I think Dany will probably side with him – she has seen the army of the dead too after all, plus the emotional attachment.
Meanwhile Tyrion and Sansa and others will have to figure out how to deal with Cersei / Euron since there’s no way in hell they are going to believe that Cersei will not take this opportunity and run with it. But given they will likely have no military to work with this is likely to occur through political machinations, maybe rousing the Riverlands / Westerlands, or working out a way to assassinate her (Arya?).
Then not to mention what will happen when the shit hits the fan and Jon’s identity is revealed. Given Jon Bradleys’ comments abotu Bran and Sam working together, they may wait awhile to reveal this, at least publickly. Whether they want there to be or not, some people will want to declare for Jon over Dany’s claim and there will be friction along those lines among her supporters. And meanwhile, there may be some A-hole northerners (Glover, etc) who try to use this as yet another excuse to get rid of Jon in favor of Sansa.
Anyway, there’s still plenty of time for politics, fortunately.
15. Gendry
16. Hot Pie
Ser Hogwyn,
I do not understand. Neither Gendry nor Hot Pie were in S1e1.
There’s already been potential foreshadowing for that, via Shireen’s fascination with The Dance of the Dragons; the civil war fought between Aegon II and Rhaenyra over the Iron Throne.
When Stannis asked who she would have chosen she says, “I wouldn’t have chosen either. It was all the choosing sides that made everything so horrible”.
It’s possible that Jon and Daenerys’ claims to the throne will buck the trend and they’ll reconcile them peacefully, possibly due to the circumstances of the oncoming war.
Or perhaps circumstances will develop where either/both of them feel obliged to press their claim.
As Stannis goes on, “Sometimes a person has to choose. Sometimes the world forces his hand”.
His next lines could easily end up applying to either Jon or Dany, “If a man knows what he is and remains true to himself… the choice is no choice at all. He must fulfil his destiny and become who he is meant to be. However much he may hate it”.
P.S. Lord Glover and co might be stubborn and fickle, but if Jon is revealed to be a Targaryen then they would have every right to champion Sansa’s claim to The North. Unbeknownst to everyone, they named Jon their king partly on false pretences. I’m not even sure if Jon would want to retain the title once his circumstances become clear. Even when he left for Dragonstone in S7 he was talking about how he never wanted or asked to be named king and that Sansa was the “only Stark in Winterfell”.
I felt like we were seeing a darker side of Tyrion emerging last season. So I have to wonder whether in the final season we discover that Tyrion conspired with Cersei and knew she wouldn’t really come to help. I also have to wonder if Tyrion is hoping to win the Iron Throne for himself, and was not happy Dany & Jon got together. Altho how could he, of all people not see that coming? If Tyrion does prove to be conspiring against Dany, who will Varys support? As for alliances, Jaime allies with the Starks seems like the most obvious.
A Question: Wasn’t Varys in Season 1 Episode 1?
Roz’s Ghost,
I don’t think we saw Varys until episode 3 when Ned reached KL. Same with Baelish, Renly, and Pycelle.
I love that episode (Lord Snow) because of the ending scene with Arya and Syrio. That scene is def top 10 favorite moments in GoT history for me.
Roz’s Mr Derp,
No, S1E3 is his first appearance.
I don’t agree. The Northerners already chose him because of who Jon is, and specifically not because he had the best claim to Winterfell. And even if that was the case given r+l got married, Jon’s claim to the North is possibly better now than it was since at least he’s a legitimate Stark heir on his mom’s side (and in Westeros claims can go through women who marry outside the family given all the fuss Tywin makes about Tyrion getting Sansa pregnant in order to control the North).
I, too, am curios as hell to know what deal, if any, Tyrion made with Cersei. While I don’t believe they ‘conspired,’ as you suggest, I do think that whatever transpired, it’s clearly going to backfire on Tyrion. We already know that Cersei lied, but when Dany finds out that Tyrion got played, well……..
Dany’s definitely been keeping score of Tyrion’s miscalculations. Hallway-dwelling Tyrion could definitely be concerned for his position as the queen’s Hand, now that Jon will be seemingly part of Dany’s inner circle. That is, until they all learn who Jon really is….but that’s for another time.
I believe Peter Dinklage even explained his presence in the hallway. He stated something along the lines of knowing how intimate relationships tend to complicate things. Dany risked her life, and the lives of her dragons, to save Jon & Co. Throw love and feelings into the mix and you can see that Tyrion seems to have a genuine fear that he could lose Dany to her own heroism and then everything, everyone is lost.
I don’t see Tyrion vying for the throne, either. I think he enjoys his role as it is and will be working to redeem himself in Dany’s eyes in S8. Someone suggested that Tyrion and Sansa may work together to destroy/diminish the southern threat posed by Cersei.
I like that idea.
Not necessarily, as Ramsay’s 20th Good Man mentioned, Lord Glover and the other Northern Lords are a fickle bunch and they have already suggested that they should have better supported Sansa’s claim over Jon’s… and that’s even before knowing that Jon had knelt… Those Lords’ loyalties will be tested when they learn that not only Jon has yielded the North to Dany, but that he’s a Targaryen rather than a Stark (yes, I’m aware that he’s a Stark from his mother side, but patrilineality is favored in the North.) A lot of politicking will be necessary to calm the North and Vale Lords anguishes, even in the presence of a monumental and supernatural threat.
QueenOfThrones,
They chose him in large part because they believed he was Ned Stark’s bastard son. “…the son of the last true Warden of the North” (Sansa, S6E4).
They considered him a Stark by default of being Ned’s son.
Yet Jon is a Targaryen. That’s a fact.
Lyanna Mormont said she didn’t care if he’s a bastard; not that she doesn’t care if he’s a Targaryen.
The reason Tywin saw Sansa as the key to The North was because Bran and Rickon were presumed dead, he had already arranged Robb’s murder, and Sansa would be next in line.
The strength of Jon’s claim over Sansa’s relied primarily on the belief that he was Ned Stark’s son. Not Lyanna’s. And certainly not Rhaegar Targaryen’s.
It’s become obvious since the end of Season 7 that, for whatever reason, some people are eager to overlook the reality that Jon is a trueborn Targaryen. And perhaps the producers will too, since their commitment to consistency and consequences seems to be waning.
But if the Northerners find out that Jon is a Targaryen then according to their own reasoning when naming him king, they should be reconsidering that decision.
The fact that Jon just conceded the Northern crown and their independence to another Targaryen is unlikely to help matters.
Mr Derp,
All Arya + Syrio scenes are in my top 10. Amazing performance from a child actress. And I still get the “feels” when a terrified Arya implores Syrio, “Come with me! Run!”, and he calmly replies: ”The First Sword of Braavos does not run.”
Now back to our regularly scheduled comment thread.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
“But if the Northerners find out that Jon is a Targaryen then according to their own reasoning when naming him king, they should be reconsidering that decision.
The fact that Jon just conceded the Northern crown and their independence to another Targaryen is unlikely to help matters.”
………………………….
And that is why it should be up to the Stark sisters, “savvy politician” Sansa and ninja warrior princess Arya, to keep the Northerners loyal to Jon. With a little “convincing” from Sansa’s sword shield Brienne and Sandor “For F*ck’s Sake Will You Shut Your Hole!” Clegane.
Exactly.
I don’t think Jon would fight to be named “Warden of the North” once he knows who he is, though, so I see no drawn-out conflict there. I believe he would concede the North to Sansa (whether she accepts being Wardeness or Queen is another matter), as I believe that Jon would honor the history of a Stark ruling WF and the North.
If I may add:
I think the Wardeness/Queen question is what Sophie may have been alluding to when referring to conspiracies.
Will she accept the dominion of the Iron Throne, or should she push for an independent North, and thereby be named Queen?
She won’t hesitate to list off her accomplishments and she may, like LF would do, work the northern lords into backing her claim. Along with trying to merely survive, this certainly adds to the political conflict.
I thought Daenerys roasted them alive to punish them for refusing to bend the knee within a minute of her asking… Admittedly, that sounded odd considering Jon refused to submit just as adamantly for weeks on end without getting as much as much as a sunburn. I assumed the discrepancy in treatments was merely due to Jon having a face Daenerys enjoyed looking at but I may have been mistaken.
The Mother of Dragons burnt two men alive in an attempt to get justice for Samwell ! I am certain he will thus be delighted to hear of his relatives’ fate 😛
I am terribly sorry to disagree here but I am afraid the writers crafted Lyanna’s statement and pledge in such a way that it leaves little to no doubt as to why he was chosen as king : “Your son was butchered at the Red Wedding, Lord Manderly, but you refused the call. You swore allegiance to House Stark, Lord Glover, but in their hour of greatest need, you refused the call. And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton. Still you refused the call. But House Mormont remembers. The North remembers. We know no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark. I don’t care if he’s a bastard. Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins. He’s my king from this day until his last day.”
There are many things the writers could have chosen to insert into Lyanna’s rallying speech to justify her decision to back Jon’s claim. Jon is, after all, a very accomplished man : he served the North and Westeros loyally as a Brother of the Night’s Watch, he was elected as one of its youngest Lord Commanders, he was one of the first people to take the White Walkers threat seriously, he prevented some Wildlings from turning into Wights… All those deeds could have legitimised his accession to the northern throne with no ambiguity.
Instead, what does Lyanna (aka the writers) mention ? That Jon avenged the Red Wedding (he did not), that he defeated Ramsay Bolton (he did not) and that he has Ned Stark’s blood (he does not, he has Lyanna’s blood).
As Ramsay’s 20th Good Man very rightly mentioned, I believe Westerosi only recognise matrilinear filiation if the male line is extinct. Sansa’s position as “key to the North” was only valid because all her legitimate brothers were presumed dead. So Jon’s Stark connection, via Lyanna, is politically meaningless.
Furthermore, at the time of her death, Lyanna was not the last Stark on the board : she had two brothers, including an older one, alive and kicking. And she was a married woman. So she, and by extension her son, had no claim over House Stark itself, let alone the North.
I would share your cynicism if it were for how pointed Lyanna’s speech was. The Bear Cub basically shouted “blah blah Stark blah blah North blah blah Ned blah blah Stark… Oh, did I mention Stark Stark Stark ?”
It was almost comical in how on-the-nose inaccurate it was, especially given that the “King in the North” scene came right after the revelation that Jon was indeed Lyanna’s son and not Ned’s.
Though I thoroughly adore the idea of a zombie army fighting another zombie army (^^), I would think there are a few pieces on the board Cersei can move.
The Reach is the most obvious one : Daenerys’s “fields of fire” 2.0 basically proved Cersei right in the eyes of every last nobleman in the region. Since we saw no representative of the Reach at the Dragon Pit, it is entirely possible that they do not know of the White Walkers yet. However, Daenerys must have ordered them to follow her north, to support her Unsullied and Dothraki.
Cersei could convince them not to go, thereby getting the Reach back and weakening the northern efforts (Jon and Daenerys expect the Lannister forces to show up but they won’t; and now, they could also be waiting on Reach forces that may never arrive…)
A similar logic could apply to the Riverlands. Arya took out many Freys but there are still quite a few left alive. And, as far as we can tell, she did not free Edmure. So if Cersei ensures that Walder’s surviving sons remain in charge of the region, she can prevent a Tully resurgence thus a possible alliance between the Riverlands and the North.
Lastly, there is the matter of the Vale. The Vale is the North’s greatest ally and chance at the moment. Do not get me wrong, the Dothraki and the Unsullied are wonderful fighters but they have never been confronted with snow. Seven hells, many of them may not even know what it is ! So the idea that they are going to fare well in winter is, as far as I am concerned, a joke. Northerners have perfect knowledge of the cold but they are exhausted after six years of conflict, defeat and trauma.
The Knights of the Vale, conversely, can fight in winter and are perfectly trained and rested, having stayed out of all the War of the Five Kings… Getting the Vale is therefore a priority. Now, as far as Cersei knows, one of the main reasons (if not the only reason) why the Knights sided with the North is because of the family connection between Sweetrobin and the legitimate Starks. Were that connection to be severed (RIP Sweetrobin ?), what incentive would the Vale have to stay in the North instead of defending their own region’s border ? Why would they side with the Starks (and now the Targaryens !) instead of a Lannister ?
Sweetrobin is the last of his House. It is not a good position to find oneself in (we could ask Olenna about that but I think she is busy right now…). He is now the only thing standing between an ambitious new House willing to collaborate with Cersei and the title of Warden of the East…
A Dornish Tyrell,
Hello there, friend ! 😉
You are utterly right to say that the revelation of Jon’s true lineage will test the Northern lords’ loyalty. Furthermore, it will also test their sense of self, of identity. Northerners love to get misty-eyed over the Starks and they just declared their independence in the name of House Stark. Now, their newly-appointed king has bent the knee to an Essosi woman, or as Lord Glover likes to call them a “foreign whore”, and will be revealed not to be a Stark.
That is quite a lot to take in for the super jingoistic Northern lords. And tiny lady…
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
If the North starts reconsidering, first of all, they should start considering Bran: he is the only truebort male Stark. So, far he sort of abdicated on the grounds of being the Three Eyed Raven, but if the question arrises, he will have to give the nothern lords an extensive explanation, why he can’t assume his dutes as a political leader of the North. Moreover, we can legitly assume that Bran will support Jon and never go against him or let others do it. Withdrawn as he is, Bran is still a political player that cannot be neglected and his very existence blocks any potential conspiracy against Jon. If the writers neglect it, it’s going to be just a very bad writing. I just hope they won’t.
I disagree.
On the contrary, Bran hasn’t ‘sort of’ abdicated; he fully abdicated. He fully accepts that he is the TER.
I also think that LF’s trial proved that Bran doesn’t have to fully explain anything to the northern lords. It’s seems to me that it is accepted among them that he will never be “Lord Stark.” Remember, when Glover and Royce were telling Sansa that they should have chosen her to lead them, Bran was home by then.
Bran’s purpose will be to seek a way to end the NK. Period. Once completed, perhaps he can help Sam fill in some blanks while Sam writes ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’
Erica,
IMO, Lord Glover spoke without thinking twise and purely based on his emotions: he was upset about the news that the enemy might strike them in the commander’s absence, that’s all. Hardly he was making any plans, because any such plans would requre solving Bran’s problem. And Bran is fully on lean Jon, because Jon is to lead the living against the dead. Bran abdicated from his ringhts in his favor. Should anyone go against Jon forfeiting the only chance of victory, Bran will be forced to take a more active political stance the same way like Jon did in S6. In short, Bran’s voice should be enough to silence anyone, who might come up with the idea that the North should replace the king on the eve of the ultimate battle. And what other choice do they have? Sansa may be good at raising food supplies but they need a king able to defend his country with a sword. Therefore, the Northern lords may do some whinging but they won’t go against Jon, before the dead are defeated. And Jon may play an old trick – not exactly a trick, because Jon is too generous, but anyway he may propose to abdicate. Sure, everyone will be begging him to stay and lead them.
ACME,
“So if Cersei ensures that Walder’s surviving sons remain in charge of the region, she can prevent a Tully resurgence thus a possible alliance between the Riverlands and the North….”
———————
“Walder’s surviving sons” ?????????
I think not. Arya ripped them all out, root and stem.
#WinterCameForHouseFrey
ACME,
Dearest ACME!! Long time no read!! I fully agree with you that if Cersei, via the Golden Company were to attack the Vale, the KotV would be in the precarious position to have to choose between their liege Lord and their Northern allies… And eventually, they could be forced to leave the North, debilitating the Stark army by depriving them of an army that knows how to fight on ice and snow.
It would be very interesting, yet I don’t think that will be the scenario in S8. I think most of the “conspiracies and plotting and forming of alliances” will have to do with Jon’s decision to bend the knee and later on with the reveal of his true identity as a Targaryen. And it will mostly have to do with Sansa, Davos and maybe Tyrion having to do some damage control in order to appease the Northern Lords and the KofV.
I didn’t see it that way; I thought they were upset that he left them to consort with their perceived human enemies (Targaryen/Lannister)….a foolhardy mission, in their eyes. He already had done that with Wildings…now this? Yes, they’ve come to accept Wildings, but the Lannisters and Targaryens have a history far more ingrained in their minds, and it’s not been a positive history.
Bran wants to tell Jon who he really is; he made no mention of Jon being the one to lead them when the long night comes. That was Sam…and Sam’s diplomacy alone may be what prevents the northern lords from entirely losing sight of the real threat and make the case for Jon as their leader in this fight.
…and ensuring that their armor is well prepared….Sansa doesn’t need to be a warrior to lead them. She doesn’t need to be a field soldier. Her logistical maneuvers may be just what the North needs when/if WF becomes the north’s ‘last stand,’ as many of us suspect it will be….too much foreshadowing to think otherwise.
ACME,
“I would share your cynicism if it were for how pointed Lyanna’s speech was. The Bear Cub basically shouted “blah blah Stark blah blah North blah blah Ned blah blah Stark… Oh, did I mention Stark Stark Stark ?”
It was almost comical in how on-the-nose inaccurate it was, especially given that the “King in the North” scene came right after the revelation that Jon was indeed Lyanna’s son and not Ned’s.”
…………………
Yes, that sure was conspicuous throughout the episode. “Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins.”
Jon: “My father used to say, we find our true friends on the battlefield.”
(Me: “Uhhh, no he didn’t.”)
Sansa: “…Winter is here.”
Jon: “Well, father always promised.”
(Me: “Uhhh…..)
This is one of the “inconsistencies” we are going to have to endure in S8, I’m afraid… And I have already (almost) made my peace with it. However, I fully agree with you… Having the Unsullied and the Dothraki in the North would not only put pressure on the limited supply of food that Sansa ordered to provision but they should have no experience whatsoever in fighting on snow or ice, basically becoming cannon fodder for the WW. But I guess we will have them fighting like they were born there.
By the way… didn’t Stannis hire the Golden Company back in S5? And didn’t they just break the contract and fled after the burning of Shireen?
Speaking of inconsistencies….
As much as I loved (and look forward to) Miguel Sapochnik’s episodes, he is not one to catch continuity errors…and he’s getting 3 of the final 6 episodes.
Here’s what grinds my gears:
1. Hardhome: Karsi dies near the gate and is resurrected near the waterline.
2. Battle of the Bastards: Tormund talks about being concerned about Ramsay’s mounted soldiers because he watched Stannis cut through them like ‘piss through snow.’ Tormund was a prisoner at Castle Black when that happened.
3. Battle of the Bastards: Sansa reminds a captured Ramsay that he hadn’t fed his dogs in seven days….she had left the field before that. (I concede that someone could have told her offscreen)
There could be more I’m not remembering. It’s nit picky, I know; I still loved those episodes, but, you know…I noticed, and I hate noticing those things. Hahaha. I’d rather be like, oh yeah, now I see it or I’d rather never see it at all. I never watch field battle scenes too closely because I don’t want to see two characters in the background laughing or half-assing it.
You may be completely right.
However, if she truly killed all the Frey men, I am afraid I no longer understand what she was referencing when she said “the Freys who matter”. I took it to mean she had eliminated the Freys who had actively participated in the Red Wedding (though I am still intrigued as to how she would have managed to establish such a precise list).
Furthermore, the number of people she poisoned was suspiciously low considering Walder was famous for having many, many, many children, both legitimate and illegitimate. So even if we assume Arya killed all his legitimate sons, the Frey trueborn daughters and bastard children are still at the Twins, very much in charge, aren’t they ?
I believe it is important to note that Lord Glover was not the only person opposing Jon and showing a certain degree of disappointment in him. Lord Royce, the head of the North’s greatest military ally, was none too pleased about the King either.
There was also another person who was definitely not on board with Jon’s decision to go negociate in person with Daenerys when he could have sent an ambassador and I believe that one was as foreshadow-y as it gets…
Lyanna Mormont is clearly established as the “uncorrupted” Northern spirit, so to speak. She is the Northern lords’ leader, their moral compass (even though she is a tiny wee bit of a hypocrite herself) and their spokesperson. As long as Jon has her on his side, he is fine. If he loses her support, he is toast.
Lyanna was firmly on team “the King in the North stays in the North”. Furthermore, she was the one who decided to crown Jon thereby declaring the North’s independence. Now that the King is no longer King, that he abdicated the North’s sovereignty and that he will be revealed not to be even a Stark… What will Baby Bear do ?
Long time indeed, dearest A Dornish Tyrell ! And it is always an utter delight to read you, my friend 😉
I believe you are entirely right that the North will be the focal point of the political storyline. There is a lot to unpack over there and the stage has been repeatedly and pointedly set for a crisis in leadership.
However, I will keep my fingers crossed that the Vale will be addressed. Not only because Sweetrobin is now one of the very last trueborn, “able-bodied” male heirs of Westeros (as opposed to the bastards, the cripples and the broken things who shall inherit the earth ^^) but also because Cersei mentioned, à propos of nothing, the Golden Company’s elephants. That struck me as odd because, on the face of it, it was an entirely unnecessary precision. Now, it so happens that the most immediate cultural reference many people (self included, I admit ^^) have when hearing the words “war elephants” is the Second Punic War and Hannibal’s crossing of the Alps. And since there is only one region in Westeros famous for its “unbreachable” mountains, I cannot help but dream of an attack on the Vale.
It would not even have to be long : just a short scene of the troops at the Bloodgate, already depleted due to quite a few Knights having been dispatched to the North, witnessing in terror and incomprehension the charge of massive grey beasts they have never seen before, and then a shot of a dead or captured Sweetrobin…
But who knows ? The writers may forget about the Vale entirely 😀
I cannot deny, no matter how hard I try, the extremely high probablity of the scenario you depict. But I am far less wise and mature than you, my friend, and still struggle to reconcile myself with it.
As you so rightfully state, the Unsullied and the Dothraki, by all rules of logic, should end up as cannon fodder. Not only would it make utter sense, it would also fit in with the preestablished theme of Daenerys’s “family” being eliminated in this fight in the North : she already lost Viserion, one of her “children”, to the Night’s King; it would not be that much of a stretch for her to lose her “brothers”, aka the Dothraki and the Unsullied, to him too. Tragic but thematically coherent.
I think he may have. And I am sure they did 😛
Though, I have to confess my memory is at times, a complete and unadulterated disaster area… Davos certainly advocated for Stannis to hire the Golden Company and the last Baratheon did end up with an army of sellswords. However, I cannot for the life of me remember whether we were ever told, explicitly, that Stannis’s mercenaries were the Golden Company Davos had spoken of. It would absolutely stand to reason for them to be the same people but I cannot recall any specific and unquestionable confirmation.
Erica,
To be honest, continuity errors don’t bother me much… I remember all the fuss there was during S6E1 concerning some missing dogs or some complaints earlier on in S3E6 where Lady Olenna is talking to Tywin scene while holding her cup differently in each shot… I don’t think much of those continuity errors or the ones you’ve mentioned… But I get your point. Once you’ve seen them, it’s impossible to “unsee” them. Likewise when there some actor in the background behaving oddly… 😀
It would be awesome to watch elephants storming the Bloody Gate!! Fingers crossed we get that scene!! 🙂
A Dornish Tyrell,
They certainly don’t bother me enough to turn against this show. Cheers!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Look at you, being all logical and shit!
You might as well be trying to reason with total strangers on the Guardian’s Facebook page. 😜
ACME,
Acme dear..She didnt burn Jon ..because she sees in him a brave man who could do anything for his people..even and to sacrifice himself as she did for the Meerenese people ..Thats why she didnt burn him when he didnt still bend the knee[he do it later]..As for Sams daddy death i dont think that Sam will be so much sad for his death..Sam always hated his dad ..because he had humiliated him and had want to kill him on a hunting ..because Sam being born fat and has intelligence instead of fighting skills..For his brother idk ..because Sam loved him..Maybe he to realize that Randyll and Dickon Tarly they deserved their death ..because they have been too small minded and stubborn and betray their family choosing to switch side with the mad queen.
Ten Bears,
Could’ve sworn you just said season one, not specifically the first season. Oh well, shit happens, life goes along, and blah, blah, blah.
I’m still confused: “season one” = “the first season.” Did you mean to write “first episode”?
But no worries. You are eminently correct: “Sh*t happens, life goes along, and blah, blah, blah.”
Meanwhile…Got any “deadpool” predictions for the S1e1 characters still alive?
I’ve been thinking about aggregating commenters’ predictions to formulate each character’s odds of dying in S8. For example, I suspect “the wisdom of the crowd” would be that Cersei has at least a 1:1 chance [50%] of dying.
ACME,
“Though, I have to confess my memory is at times, a complete and unadulterated disaster area.”
__________
Mine is too. I know the sellswords Stannis hired with some of the Iron Bank loan deserted him. I don’t recall specifically if the sellswords were the Golden Company.
However, I suspect the Golden Company’s contract has tiny, fine print that says: “Grumkins, Snarks, White Walkers, and Zombies expressly excluded from coverage.” Even if it doesn’t, I think they’ll turn tail and run if they see wights and White Walkers. If not, as I’ve said before, we can look forward to…
Zombie Elephants! 🐘🐘🐘🐘🐘💀
Imagine Sweetrobin’s face… 😀
The Night’s King already has zombie mammuths, zombie bears, zombie horses and zombie wolves… He can take the elephants ! The man is turning into the ringleader of a ménagerie of the dead. I am lovin’ it ^^
Artemisia,
So Jon refuses to bend the knee even though it is Daenerys’s only condition to help him save humanity and Daenerys instinctively finds him honourable and heroic.
However, the Tarlys refuse to bend the knee because Daenerys is bringing with her living, breathing weapons of mass destruction as well as known rapists and pillagers, both of whom she just unleashed onto Westerosi troops and she finds Dickon (dear seven, that name…) and Randyll worthy of being turned into shish kebabs.
I truly wish I could agree with this logic but I am sorry to say I can’t.
Wolfish,
Been there, done that, nearly had the aneurysm. 🙂
Last night I started to write a comment that detailed the pros and cons of the situation Jon faces on his return to Winterfell, but I didn’t get round to finishing it.
But basically the only thing Jon has going for him right now is that he managed to secure the dragonglass and the support of Daenerys’ army, yet even that is tinged with problems/stigma.
Obviously, that was all that mattered to him. He wanted the dragonglass and an army to fight the Night King and he’s got them.
But everything else we saw in Season 7 leaves him in a dire position politically and when you see it all written down it’s hard to rationally conclude that Jon can retain rule over The North himself.
This.
I agree with every single word you wrote on the issue. However, I am tempted to believe that it was not so much Daenerys’s armies Jon wanted but her dragons.
The King in the North went to the South to get the means to kill the army of the dead; famously, Wights and White Walkers can only be killed by three things : valyrian steel, obsidian and fire. So the dragonglass/dragon combo Daenerys possessed was an irresistible magnet to Jon. Though I am certain he is not displeased with the two armies he gained in the bargain, I would be tempted to believe they were probably not that big a priority to him, especially considering that added troops against the Night’s King is a double-edged sword : on the one hand, it means more soldiers to fight them off; on the other appendage, if the troops do not perform well, it can result in a sharp increase in Wights…
So Jon wanted dragonglass and dragons. He has the dragonglass but only two of the three dragons with the third one now playing for Team Zombie. By his own standards, the intended goal is not reached. That should give an indication as to what the Northern lords are going to feel, given they did not even agree with said intended goal to begin with.
Wasnt only..Her exotic beauty and her selfless bravery make it him to somehow attracted to her..and that why they had sex…the look of each other during this scene make it me to believe that there is something emotion grown among them..Its passion..They will had a child in S8..so it could be physical Jon to fall in love with her[as she is with him] and to marry in the middle of the season..There is something more than the Dragonglass,the armies,the Dragons and the Valyrian Steel who make it Jon to bring her with him in Winterfell..You cant refuse the emotional paragon between them.
Yes, and … the Dothraki and the Unsullied soldiers aren’t experienced in fighting in winter conditions. The Unsullied will need to be given warmer clothing! And they’ll all need to be fed and sheltered. Unless they’re marching with their own supply wagons, their presence in the North is likely to be a liability.
about the conspiracies I think it’s about those characters:
1. Cercei with Tyrion. Maybe count Varys and GC with their side.
2. Sansa and Arya together as sisters conspiring against Dany.
3. Bran and Sam. Maybe they will keep Jon’s past for themselves and only reveal it later on.
4. illyrio and Varys?? What if they also knew the truth about Jon.
I don’t think Varys would have sent Tyrion to Dany if he’d known about Jon; he’d have taken Tyrion to the Wall. In fact, I think he’d have directly helped Ned, after Robert’s death, to prevent Joffrey from taking the throne.
true, but we know that in the books he know more than he let on, the ending of DwD
And the Dothraki need to be given clothing, full stop ^^
Artemisia,
Jon’s feelinsg are very relevant to him, to Daenerys and to anyone who cares for Jon on an emotional level. However, I am afraid this is not what we were discussing. As far as I am aware, we were debating the political ramifications of Jon’s (and Daenerys’s) decisions.
Northerners do not give a flying fig about Daenerys’s “exotic beauty” or “selfless bravery” *. Nor should they ! Their king’s emotions regarding the Mother of Dragons are his personal business and should not interfere with his ability to rule his subjects in a way they find satisfactory.
I am not, nor have I ever been, a big fan of the Northern lords or Northerners in general. I am more than willing to state that they are undeservedly self-important, grotesquely hypocritical and ridiculously jingoistic. However, they have every reason to be weary of a King in the North who ranks his feelings or perceived personal honour over his people’s greater good.
Not so long ago, there was another King in the North as well as another woman with “exotic beauty” and “selfless bravery”… The North remembers that duo particularly well, if Lord Glover is any indication. And they have an opinion about it.
* On a sidenote, I am not quite convinced someone who is so adamant to become the sole ruler of a land in spite of part of its population’s protests can be considered entirely selfless. But I may be cynical.
Yeah, but whatever it is that Varys knows in the books (and I’m very curious) I’d be surprised if it’s the same in the show. It does seem like they’ve given Jon some of Young Griff/Aegon’s storyline, but since (the general consensus is that) he’s a fake, it would be hard to transfer book!Varys’s involvement with YG/A to show!Jon, since the latter is a real Targaryen.
I’m very curious about what Season 8 has in store for Varys, although it doesn’t seem likely to be the result of him knowing all along that Jon is a Targaryen.
And the Dothraki need to be given clothing, full stop ^^
@Artemisia
Jon’s feelings are very relevant to him, to Daenerys and to anyone who cares for Jon on an emotional level. However, I am afraid this is not what we were discussing. As far as I am aware, we were debating the political ramifications of Jon’s (and Daenerys’s) decisions.
I think Northerners do not give a flying fig about Daenerys’s “exotic beauty” or “selfless bravery” *. Nor should they, to be honest ! Their king’s emotions regarding the Mother of Dragons are his personal business and should not interfere with his ability to rule his subjects in a way they find satisfactory.
I am not, nor have I ever been, a big fan of the Northern lords or Northerners in general. I am more than willing to state that they are needlessly argumentative, grotesquely hypocritical and ridiculously self-important. However, they have every reason to be weary of a King in the North who ranks his feelings or perceived personal honour over his people’s greater good.
Not so long ago, there was another King in the North as well as another woman with “exotic beauty” and “selfless bravery”… The North remembers that duo particularly well, if Lord Glover is any indication. And they have an opinion about it.
* On a sidenote, I am not quite convinced someone who is so adamant to become the sole ruler of a land in spite of part of its population’s protests can be considered entirely selfless. But I may be cynical.
Just once, before this whole thing is over, I would love to see a tongue in cheek interview with an ‘inside source close to the production’, reveal something like:
“Season 8 has been….well, I wouldn’t say it’s worse than other seasons, but it really seems smaller, more toned down. Less action, not quite as engaging dialogue for the viewer. No new relationships are formed, obviously, and we never find out the end of Tyrion’s joke, which was the whole reason I’ve been involved in this production.”
“There’s not really a sense of it ending, because we’re actors and we are doing our best to delude ourselves that the meal ticket will keep on going. Somehow, you know? Not to say the prequel is going to involve all of us, but….”
*at this point, our ‘source’ seems to realize that they may have given away something, and attempts to backtrack*
“I mean, if there was a prequel in the works. But there isn’t. I mean, there could be, but I’m pretty low on the totem pole and don’t know anything. I mean, I’m not actually on a totem pole. Not literally. But yeah, instead of coming together in a sad celebration of a beautiful thing ending, everyone is really just sleeping a lot and annoying the hell out of each other and phoning in their lines while they fuck about with apps on their phones and ignore each other.”
“CGI has been cut, too, because a hacker messed up a bunch of code, and so the dragons might look a bit different to the audience this year. What? Oh, like there’s a guy in Costume named Toby who is gonna pretty much be all the dragons, they’ll just green screen out his sneakers with the one sheet of green paper we’re using. They’ve had to cut the cardboard cutouts of the direwolves too, because painting them isn’t in the budget. Also everyone has Rhaegar’s wig from last year, so we all look like floor mops turned upside down. God, it’s as bad as forever NOT being known as just ‘that guy who was 999th Lord Commander’ or something, you know? And then they forgot 14 of us on a glacier in Iceland.”
The interview ends there, as our source was summoned by a cranky props worker with dark circles under their eyes, to help pick apart styrofoam into fake snow pellets.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Agreed, agreed, and agreed.
But I think you meant to write “Da Norf.” 😉
Pigeon,
😂😂😂
[1]i Disagree with Sansa/Arya conspiring against Danny..Sansa maybe [because she is jealous for Danny/Jon relationship] but Arya i dont think will give to much attention ..She is more focused on her revenge in Cercei and she will travel somehow back to KL for to finish her list..[2]Varys knows the truth about Jon ?..i dont think so ..Littlefinger may had knows about Rhaegar/Lyannas child..because he caused all this bloody stuff telling/lying in Brandon Stark that Rhaegar kidnapped/raped her..who wasnt actually true…[3] Cercei+Tyrion+Varys+GC ..i agree ..but i think GC will betray them too joining Euron or Jon/Danny in the end..Probably Jorah as their former member can help i this..[4]Sam/Bran keeping secret Jons parentage during all the season almost and decide to tell in him in the end ..it could be..but if Jon dies before that?..this non knowing of his parentage and dies without learn it ..would be bitter for him.
ACME,
i agree…The Lords of the North might not approve Danny in first place..but they should to see that she risked her life and her dragons life to save their King..without her he and his team would had been dead in the bottom of this icy lake in S7ep6 ..The Lords of the North they need to see her in action next season ..for to believe that she is help them..I think Jorah will convince his little niece..Lyanna Mormont to support /Jon/Danny telling in her that how Danny can be nice queen for their king ,how she helped/saving them in s7ep6 and how she is a selfless/brave woman who can fight along with her soldiers in the first line of the battle[she did in s7ep4]..while the other King/Queens they choose to stay in their castles safety instead to risk their lives into a battle ..Also ..you are talking for Rob/Tallisa right ?..There is a big difference ..Tallisa wasnt a noble woman with armies,dragons,strange beauty,diplomatic skills and a great name and a Royal family history behind her as Danny has ….she was just a nurse…that why the Northern Lords left Robb ..she wasnt a noble woman..He should to had marry Roslin Frey and to keep Tallisa as his mistress ..that was right..With Jon joining to marry Danny shouldnt to have this problem and they should to learn that Danny hasnt to do anything with the Mad Kings crimes against them..Childrens should not to judge/suffer for their parents crimes and madness
“Our source then stumbled away, holding onto their flask of gin for dear life”.
The “no f*ck given” interview is such a brilliant idea 😀
I may be cynical person but I doubt displaying Daenerys’s disdain for the very function of monarch would be great PR strategy.
Kings and queens normally stay away from the frontline because it is not their job to be there. They have to rule and ensure the continuity of the State, not endanger their own lives (thereby threatening said continuity) by fighting alongside their soldiers. Even generals are not supposed to join the mêlée. They are meant to supervise strategies and troop movements as the fighting unfolds, something that is mostly impossible to do from the heart of the battlefield (as proven by Jon during the Battle of the Bastards).
I believe Talisa was a doctor, unless I am hugely mistaken. And most Northerners despised her because she was foreign and because her marriage with Robb weakened the polical standing of the North. Furthermore, because Robb refused to compromise on the truth of his relationship with Talisa, he ended up insulting the Freys.
Daenerys is foreign and, as a direct result of her relationship with Jon, the North has now lost its newly-declared independence thereby weakening its political standing. Furthermore, because Jon refused to compromise on the truth of his relationship with Daenerys, he ended up insulting Cersei.
I doubt the writers inserted that many parallels by accident.
Daenerys claims a right to the Westerosi throne based on her lineage. She is adamant to state and reaffirm that she is neither conquering nor invading the Seven Kingdoms but “recuperating” them, because her father (and all her ancestors) were the previous monarchs. Her argument is based entirely on heredity which means that she cannot run away when said heredity becomes less advantageous to her cause.
Daenerys has to face the fact that, if she wants to claim the positive aspects of her family’s legacy, she has to shoulder the negative ones too. Otherwise, she will look like an unspeakable hypocrite :
Daenerys : I am the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
Northerners : Says who ?
Daenerys : My father and all of my ancestors. They were the Kings of the Seven Kingdoms.
Northerners : Your father and most of your family were crazy, murderous people.
Daenerys : My father and my family have nothing to do with this.
Northerners : Oh…
Daenerys : Yep
ACME,
i agree with the rest..But the Northeners should to realize that Danny has nothing to do with her fathers crimes..You shouldnt judge the kids based on their parents crimes..Still i think that Littlefinger was right..Notherners are slow minds/hot tempers…to stubborn for to realize the problem there.
Indeed.
Davos tried to point this out to Jon before he went on his suicide mission beyond The Wall.
“You can’t lead a raid beyond The Wall. You’re not in the Night’s Watch anymore, you’re King in the North.”
Even Tormund recognised that it was a “stupid f**king idea”.
I find it hard to believe that the Northerners will be particularly grateful to Dany for saving Jon from a mission that they wouldn’t have approved of to begin with; that he failed to inform them of; which was intended to ally them with a despised enemy (Lannisters), but ended in failure; and which succeeded in gifting the Night King the means to breach The Wall and threaten the existence of everybody in The North.
Frankly, once Jon and Dany realise that The Wall has been brought down with Viserion, they should both be full of contrition and eager to make amends for their mistake without demanding any added devotion.
Indeed.
Sansa begged Jon not to make the same mistakes that Robb and Ned did. And the Northern Lords all outlined their objections to him leaving The North to meet with Daenerys.
Yet Jon goes ahead and makes all the same mistakes that Ned and Robb did and ignores pretty much everything his lords warned him against.
This must have been done for a reason.
When Davos tells you you are wrong, that is when you know you are wrong.
Yes but aside from all of that, the whole thing was a complete success, right ? Right ?
What is the over-under on that one ? ^^
Jon may be a firm believer in “third time’s the charm”.
After all, doing the exact same thing over and over again expecting a different result each time is a perfectly reasonable, time-honoured strategy.
That’s just perfect!
Please don’t state fan speculation/theories as fact.
There’s nothing in the books or show to indicate that Littlefinger told Brandon Stark that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Some fans have come up with this hypothesis based on who and what Littlefinger had become 14-18 years later, so retroactively ascribing him adult Littlefinger characteristics, motivations and actions.
At the time of Lyanna’s disappearance Littlefinger was a boy of 14 or 15, the son of a very minor lord, utterly helpless and powerless, without connections or friends. He’d fought a duel with Brandon Stark for Cat’s hand and been gravely injured. He recuperated in Riverrun for a couple of weeks, then Hoster Tully sent him home in a carriage as soon as it was safe to do so. The book timeline is hazy. Was Littlefinger en route to the Fingers at the same time as Brandon was traipsing in the Riverlands en route to his wedding in Riverrun? It is possible. It is safe to assume Littlefinger resented Brandon Stark and, by extension, all the Starks, but it’s quite a leap to conclude that Littlefinger 1) got to know of Lyanna’s disappearance first (how?), before any of the main interested parties, 2) met Brandon along the way and 3) told him Rhaegar kidnapped her in a cynical ploy to start a war.
This hypothesis makes sense only in hindsight: Brandon rushing to King’s Landing, the Mad King’s moves, Jon Arryn raising his banners in rebellion etc. The boy Littlefinger could not have known all these future events at the time. If anything, he, resentful of Brandon, would’ve been more likely to say something like “Your sister is a whore, she ran off with Rhaegar.” Insulting Lyanna and House Stark. Why would he tell Brandon Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (thereby preserving Brandon’s sister’s honour)? To stir chaos so he could climb? I’m not sure the young boy Littlefinger had developed that creed by then. It is possible, I grant you that, but it is nowhere near confirmed fact in the show or books.
I tend to agree that Littlefinger guessed Jon’s parentage (but didn’t know for sure). He was an intelligent guy, and one thing that bugs me is that apparently nobody put 2 and 2 together. Rhaegar kidnaps and rapes Lyanna. Lyanna dies. Honourable Ned Stark turns up with a baby, ehm, his bastard son, you know. C’mon! Varys and Littlefinger at least should’ve been able to work it out!
ACME,
I really enjoy reading your dispassionate analyses and speculations.
As regards the Vale, I too would like to have more, some role played by Sweetrobin, Golden Company elephants, anything… But I’m afraid the show has plonked the Vale as allies to the North and won’t have time to explore their southron dilemmas. Storylines have converged so much that there really only will be 2-3: the northern zombie war, Cersei/Euron in the south and possibly Theon’s Yara rescue, which ties up with both other storylines. I think the Vale dilemma in S8 will be regarding Jon bending the knee to a Targ princess and the revelation of his true parentage. That said, I won’t mind being positively surprised.
I’d like to include all characters introduced in S1 and S2. That way we get Varys (dead), Melisandre (dead) and Brienne, Davos and Yara. Probably some others.
ACME,
I’m sorry, fighting on a frontline was a duty of every medieval king. Plenty of them did and many even died on a battlefield. As for the queens, they were supposed to perform at least as formal commanders and hand at the immediate backround. Again, plenty of them did. Sure, GoT is a fantasy story but as far as I heard (and saw) it was based on medieval precedents and codes of ethics. And as far as I understood the Northerners were respecting Jon and Robb and Ned and all the Starks exactly because they never hid behind their men’s backs. Moreover, it looks like the same applies to the South: Rhaegar, Robert, Jaime or Randyl Tarly were respected because they fought in person. Therefore, although taking personal risks might not seem wise, even modern soldiers despise commanders who stay away from battlefields.
I am terribly sorry but I disagree on this one. Even medieval kings were not expected to fight on the frontline, and very few of them ever did. They were present, of course, to boost moral (as Tyrion pointed out about the need for Joffrey to be seen by his men during Blackwaters) but also in their capacity as generals and they behaved as such, namely they devised battle plans, ordered troop movements while the fighting was underway and, possibly, joined the fray towards the end of the battle.
Staying behind to oversee the strategy is not the same thing as “hiding behind one’s men’s backs”. Tywin was never really on the frontline of the War of the Five Kings for he understood his role and position. He was there, with his men, and occasionally rode in battle alongside his cavalry but he never functioned as a soldier.
Robert Baratheon, as king, took an active part in the fighting during the Greyjoy’s Rebellion but he was an appalling king so it is coherent ^^. The same logic applies to Robb who led the charge on the Starks’ side during the War of the Five Kings mostly because he was fifteen and driven by rage and dreams of revenge.
Ned was never king and neither were Jaime, Rhaegar or Randyll so their direct and continued involvement in active battle(s) was logical and not politically unsound.
Staying away from the battlefield is terrible PR for a ruler, you are right. However leading the charge is terrible politics. So most monarchs go for the middle ground.
I think you are very likely to be proven right. But, until the very last second, I shall hold onto my elephants-filled hopes and dreams ^^
ACME</strong
Maybe our disagreement stems from a different understanding of "the front line"? Sure, wise medieval monarchs rarely engaged into combats at the initial stages of the battles: usually, they saved themselves for the ultimate attacks. But nevertheless, they fought with swords in their hands taking all the personal risks involved. It wasn't just about strategising – mostly because there were few means to convey any strategy, once a battle started. A banner was the only mean of signalling, so all the strategy went down to striking at the ringt spot in the right moment. And for that purpose, a monarch had to be in an immediate proximity of the front line to get engaged at the right time leading the reserve. And if battles went ill, monarchs often got killed. I could easily name you 5 or 6 late medieval monarchs who died on battlefields and a bunch of others who were injured and that's a pretty decent number taking into account that many others got out without a major scratch.
But back to GOT. So far, the kings in GOT have been supposed to fight in person. I have already King Robert and Robb. Now look at Stannis: we saw him fighting at the front line in three battles, including the Blackwater, when he led the attack on the Mud Gates (something extraordinary even for a medieval monarch), and Stannis was supposed to be a good king. Euron – the king of the Iron Islands – also led the charge against Yara's flagship in person. So, to sum up the kings in GOT, the kings/queens who fought include Robert, Robb, Stannis, Euron and Yara. I guess Renley would have fought too, handn't he been assassinated. Kings who didn't fight include the despised Joffrey and Baelon, though I guess the later also did some fighting back in his days. Therefore, how can Dany stay out of fight? Cersei (and also Sansa) has an excuse: they haven't been trained to wield weapons. But Dany has dragons, so she is supposed to figh in person, just like Yara. And when it comes to Jon, he does exactly what a good medieval king is supposed to do: defends his country with a sword in his hand.
talvikorppi,
i agree..but remember Littlefinger was in love with Cat then..she was ready to marry Brandon by love ..and Littlefinger was pretty jealous about this..He was always very smart and very cunning man .. He was the mastermind creator behind Roberts rebellion..He tell to Brandon that his sister was raped/abducted by Rhaegar ..then Brandon goes to the MK to say in him to stop the war and to tide up his son..then the MK forced him to watch his father burn and kill him too …Littlefinger should to have been very happy that Brandon ..his personal enemy..goes out with that way..Then it comes Ned ..the new husband of Cat…Littlefinger goes with the Baratheons/Lannisters..and conspires with Cercei to kill Ned because Ned really knows that Rhaegar never did rape Lyanna ..but he loved her/she him and because Ned did knows and about Cerceis kids parentage..He betray Ned ..saying this ”i told you not to trust me”..and the then Ned get beheaded by Geoffrey..and Littlefinger has done again his work..starting with this way the war of the 5 kings and conspires with Tywin Lannister ,Walder Frey and Roose Bolton ..the Red Wedding..for to wipe out the remaining Starks [Cat and Robb]..they know about his dirty jobs ..He killed also Jon Arryn with the help of his mistress Lyssa..poisoning him with Tears of Lys ..because he as Ned did know what started Roberts Rebellion and about Cerceis kids too..He killed Lyssa ..knowing that that bitch knows also all this stuff ..Then in his new target/love be Sansa..He manipulated her to marry Ramsay ..knowing that she cant survive with the Boltons Wardens of the North..She accept it ..Also he tries to manipulate her in S7 to go against Jon ..but she realizes how so wicked/dangerous he is..and then Littlefingers life/conspiracies stop there.I hope my answer satisfying you>.
I’m not a huge fan or Sansa or Sophie but she comes across extremely well here. Also I’ve not yet read the comments to this article however do we think this could confirm Sansa makes it to the finale episode considering she is reading the ending? I’d assume at the script reads the finale would still be need to know for now?
At this point I suspect Sansa is going to end up as Wardeness of the North in the end.
Jon Snowed,
No the table read for the cast included all scripts and the cast as a whole for the most part. Sansa could easily die and I predict she will despite her fanboys and girls wanting her to control the North. And with Jon–don’t think North will care much as they will be under siege right away and won’t have any serious complaints about who he is.
I don’t see Sansa pronouncing herself Queen of the North if Jon becomes King of the Seven kingdoms, she may do it if Dany ends up there though. I kind of fancy Sansa to end Wardness of the North right now and I don’t particularly care for the character either.
I fully agree with this, I think the Dothraki will be wiped out because they can’t logically survive the story – unless they return to Essos. Them being savages in the North and a big drain on food resources will add to the political drama. Some people were even speculating Winterfell will be attacked or under siege if so the Dothraki can’t logically be in side and we already know with the Knights of the Vale they were camping out side and therefore potentially lambs to the slaughter.
I think the Unsullied may fair better and survive the story if Dany ends up on the throne though.
If I were to do a Deadpool Cersei, Jamie are the most obvious deaths, certainly could see one of Jon or Dany dying too, most likely 60/40 in Dany’s favour as the shock death given Jon has technically died once already.
I’d wager Sam is the safest character and most likely to see the end.
I’d actually quite like Sansa to die as she is one of my least favourite characters but it just feels so unlikely given all she has been through and that she is in no direct peril at this time.
As for Jon, what makes you think they will be under siege and particularly immediately? For me first episode will be a catch up of characters with Jon finding out his parentage at the end of the first episode, I suspect we’ll see the White Walkers taking Castle Black or the Last Hearth in this episode with them reaching Winterfell – assuming they do but I think it’s very likely – end of episode 2 at the earliest.
Very much likewise ! ^^
When in doubt, blame Littlefinger. Especially if it can exonerate a Stark from responsibility in the process. 😉
Apologies in advance for going off-topic…
I loathe relying on others’ ideas without attribution. After I posted my crackpot scenario about Qyburn creating an undead ZombieGregor army, I wondered whether its inception was a vague black & white image in my subconscious from when I was very young: something about animating defectively manufactured toy soldiers to defend a town from invading creatures.
I couldn’t place it. I called my older brother, who controlled the TV in our room when I was little and used to replay the same old movies during holiday season. From my hazy description, he immediately recognized it as a scene from the 1934 adaptation of “Babes in Toyland” called “March of the Wooden Soldiers.” As he explained it, two bumbling idiots (played by Laurel and Hardy) working in a toy factory are fired for screwing up Santa Claus’s order: Instead of making 600 one foot tall wind-up wooden soldiers, they had made 100 six-foot tall wooden soldiers. When their defenseless town is overrun by the villain and his army of Bogeymen, the two bumbling idiots redeem themselves by activating the oversized wooden soldiers to fend off the invasion.
I should thank my brother for warping my young mind – or enriching it with endless replays of Monty Python and The Marx Brothers.