Why Game of Thrones passing the books shouldn’t be a bad thing

dany dragons

The following is an opinion piece from guest contributor and WoTW reader Morgoth. The opinions expressed below do not necessarily reflect those of Watchersonthewall or its staff.

By Morgoth

This is probably going to sound rather cliché, but here we go: I’ve been a fantasy fan for most of my life. It all began with J.R.R. Tolkien’s book The Hobbit. My father got it for me during a time in which I had given up reading books in favour of television and video games. I couldn’t pick up a book to save my life.

But the story of a hobbit whose life suddenly changes when a wizard and a bunch of dwarves take him on an adventure changed my life as well. For the better. After finishing with The Hobbit, I was left hungry for more. I tackled The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion and other Tolkien stories, and developed a taste for epic fantasy.

I’ll admit that at first I was sort of a purist –I wanted film or TV adaptations to be as close as possible to the source material. Deviations or new content added by the screenwriters annoyed me, as I couldn’t understand why they would want to change that, it is perfect the way it’s described in the book.

Peter Jackson’s film adaptations of The Lord of the Rings were like a dream come true for me. Sure, things were changed, some characters were cut (poor Tom Bombadil) and some chapters were also gone, but the source material was mostly respected and taken to the screen with love and care. Now, The Hobbit adaptations arrived to the screen after years of expectation, waiting and more waiting. I was at first confused and nervous about the decision of splitting it into three movies, but after watching An Unexpected Journey and The Desolation of Smaug, I was pleasantly surprised. It’s the story I know, but it’s also a new one. Instead of feeling aggravated, I was excited to see new elements and finding myself wondering what could happen in the next film.

Now, regarding A Song of Ice and Fire, many people are considerably (and understandably) nervous about the show overtaking the books, but even if it happens (which is a sure bet for many fans), it shouldn’t be something bad, and here’s why:

  • Knowing how it ends doesn’t make the journey any less fun.

This is perhaps the most important of my points.

Sure, not knowing what the final destination is can be part of the incentive to board this train in the first place. But knowing it doesn’t have to ruin the whole thing. Knowing that the Titanic sank didn’t make Titanic any less successful. The same could be said of Frodo’s journey: most of us knew the outcome of that story, but reliving it in the big screen was an amazing experience.

Same could be said of many, if not most, movies, books or tv shows. Before reading the books we can be certain that Harry Potter will defeat Voldemort, and before watching the films it’s a safe bet that Luke Skywalker will triumph over the evil Empire. Action heroes save the day at the end, superheroes save the world and defeat the villains, the monsters and serial killers are destroyed and the underdog team always finishes in first place. The detectives solve the mysteries and the oppressed peasants manage to overthrow their abusive tyrant of a king. Very few stories end in a different note, and yet we keep enjoying and consuming the very same tales over and over again.

Some of these stories are as old as humankind itself, and the reason they’re still around is because they are good. There’s no such thing as an original story; the key lies with the characters, their dialogues and the way their journey is told.

Now, I’m not saying A Song of Ice and Fire is a predictable story (I can’t even imagine how it’s going to end), but rather that the destination is never as important as the journey itself. Think about it and you’ll see it’s true.

If you’re a book fan, are you really giving up on the books because another form of media reached the conclusion first? Is the whole story ruined forever? Don’t you think that’s a little bit too dramatic? Instead of focusing on the final twist (if there’s any) or in how it all ended, people should focus on the story, on how it all led to that end result. The ending isn’t the be all and end all of a work of fiction.

  • Don’t forget it’s an adaptation

Red WeddingWhile (obviously) there are similarities between the two, I’d say it’s safe to assume the show is its own thing now. The books are the books and the show is the show, as the author himself said. There are enough differences to tell them apart, many of them clearly the result of budget or time constraints. The show’s battles are impressive and exciting, but not as big as in the source material. Lots of characters were cut because the cast is already too big, and adding more people would be counter-productive. Important events, such as the Red Wedding, were handled in a different way in the show.

That said, there’s no way the show’s ending is going to be a carbon-copy of the book’s ending. They may share a general idea, and it’s likely that the fates of some characters are going to be the same, but the already mentioned limitations will be present as well. I don’t mean to knock on the show, as all the people behind it have been doing a terrific job so far (and I can’t wait for the following season), it’s just the reality of filming a live action adaptation. Not every detail will be present on the screen.

I’m sure the books will have lots of things (perhaps a turtle or two as well) that will be worth reading, and you can bet the final battle with the Others will be far larger on the page. There’s nothing more powerful than your imagination, and the best version of the story will probably be the one you’ll imagine while reading the remaining books.

  • Some fans just want to reach a conclusion

As we all know, GRRM is a slow writer. Many people who picked up the first book back in 1996 have been waiting for 18 years now to see how it all ends.

Don’t worry– my intention isn’t to bash the author or to tell him to write faster. He’s aware people are waiting for the last two books and those who decided to wait will get their books eventually. There are fans, though, who are tired of waiting and have given up on the books. I understand them, and they deserve as much respect as people who are willing to see the remaining volumes in book stores one day.

The show’s ending will give them closure and an idea of how the travels of their favorite characters ended. And with that, they’ll be finally able to move on.

  • In conclusion

There are lots of reasons to love “spoilers” or to know how a story ends in advance. But sometimes the fear of spoilers is justified.

In this modern era, with the internet, social networks and many other ways to constantly communicate with people everywhere, there are some who think spoilers grant them power, the “power” of knowing things other people don’t, and so they take pleasure in inflicting such spoilers on people who don’t want to be spoiled. For some weird reason, they think it is fun to ruin the twists and surprises of a story to readers or tv watchers. For years now, many of these people have been spoiling the show to people who haven’t read the books or have no interest in reading them.

Arya StarkI don’t feel that spoilers ruin the experience or my desire to keep consuming movies, books or other forms of entertainment. They often make me feel even more excited or curious about how the filmmakers or authors will pull something off, or rekindle my interest in subplots or characters I stopped caring about. They allow for discussion and speculation, and create expectation about an upcoming movie, or in this case, book(s).

I suppose getting spoiled is an inevitable thing and the best way to avoid spoilers is to take obvious precautions, such as taking a break from the internet or show-related websites. There’s not much you can do if you have a relative or a friend who loves to spoil things for you, but that’s not the fault of the books or the show themselves.

In the end, what makes the prospect of the show passing the books more exciting is that finally tv watchers and book readers will be in the same boat, sailing towards uncharted territory. We all will be unsullied for once, and I’m sure it’s going to be an exciting adventure.

 

Do you agree/disagree? What will you do when the show starts portraying The Winds of Winter material? Have you been massively spoiled on anything in ASOIAF/GoT? Leave it in the comments!

210 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. What blasphemy and heresy is this? Someone needs to be burned at the stake tonight! Mel shall do the honors.

      Hodor!

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    2. This is what I’ve been trying to say for a while now in response to the die-hard book readers who want the show to be a direct word for word adaptation. Couldn’t agree more!!

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    3. Very few stories end in a different note, and yet we keep enjoying and consuming the very same tales over and over again.

      ASIOAF just might be one of these few. We all know that most characters in other fantasy stories would be dead by page 4 if GRRM had anything to do with it. That is why I’d still prefer to read the ending before watching it.

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    4. One positive that the show will have is that you won’t get irritating sullied spoileing things for the unsullied (most of whom have just read wikis). It is an interesting discussion though. I hope to add a few thoughts of my own, but too busy just now, so I will pop back later.

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    5. I am so glad the TV show is keeping the ball rolling and the story flowing, thank you HBO! Otherwise we would at least be 5 years away from knowing what happens to these characters.

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    6. If retellings of source material showed absolute fidelity to that source material then we wouldn’t have much in way of literature or storytelling. Shakespeare adapted most if not all of his works from other sources and provided a different take on them: in particular he gave King Lear a grislier ending than what people were used to and for almost 300 years the play was not performed because people didn’t like his changes to an already popular legend. Same with the King Arthur stories: everyone added material not present in prior ones – the Welsh created him in poetic and oral tradition as a foil for saints, then he became an ubermensch in later stories; the French added Lancelot and Camelot; the Normans created the Round Table, and so on. An adaptation especially does not need to show complete fidelity and because books and movies are two different mediums they can never be the same.

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    7. I agree that the journey is the most important thing to consider. The show is taking us down a few of the possible paths to the ending. But like I was discussing with Wimsey on the other thread, I believe the books will dutifully explore all known threads, not just a subset, and hopefully resolve all known red herrings, Chekhov guns, foreshadowing and twists thrown at us by the previous books and episodes. Heck, the show may only take us to a contractually-acceptable false summit, while the books will take us to the tippy-top of the Frostfangs.

      I have enjoyed and will enjoy both plotscapes immensely.

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    8. Well, that GoT will almost certainly run to completion with regular, timely installments is a good thing. I’m more or less indifferent to whether or not that means it passes the books.

      I’m not too sensitive about spoilers as long as they’re general. I saw a couple of season 2 episodes before I started the series from the top, so it was pretty clear Robert and Ned weren’t going to survive Season 1. But I’m a lot less interested in the “what” than I am in the “who, when, where, why, & how.”

      So, “Ned Stark dies” didn’t bother me. “Ned Stark is beheaded at the end of episode 9 at Joffrey’s command” probably would have.

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    9. Very interesting piece, Morgoth. It’s nice to see someone address the general anxiety that a lot of aSoIaF AND GoT fans feel now (myself included) given that the adaptation has reached the point it’s currently at.

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    10. I’m just worried that when it comes to reading the new books, I’ll be like “Well I’m bored of this now cause I saw it on the show.” Yes, I watched the first 4 seasons before I read the books, but if the show spoils the ending of the books first, I’m worried I may feel like the books aren’t worth reading unless there are some VERY different changes.

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    11. Some of us love ASOIAF simply because it isn’t like every other story ever told. We don’t know exactly how it will end. There is no equivalent to knowing from page 1 that Harry will triumph over Voldemort or Luke over the Empire.

      I mean, I doubt the Others will destroy all life, but other than ruling that out I sort of doubt the ending will be “….. and Jon and Dany were married after the Others were defeated. They ruled wisely and justly and had many children, and everyone lived happily ever after.” Which is exactly the ending you’d expect if Tolkein or J.K. Rowling or whoever else wrote it.

      There is a story for the ages and it has been told many times. You can read all about it in Joseph Campbell’s analysis of the Hero’s Journey, “The Hero with a Thousand Faces”. It’s more interesting than the actual stories themselves for some of us. I don’t want to read another Hero’s Journey. There is an unlikely hero, a scoundrel with a heart of gold and a mentor who always dies before the happy ending, I get it. I want something different for ASOIAF, and I’m fairly certain we are going to get it.

      So I’m kind of bummed that the ending is going to be “spoiled” for me by the show, but there is nothing I can do about it. So I’ll watch it unfold for the next three years and then read it in 16 when ADOS is finished. Even though “A Time for Wolves” was a better title for the final book. But whatever.

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    12. I see your points, and I’m sure that many people do feel that way, but I’m just not one of them. People can say what they will about making a big deal out of nothing, or being on a high horse about the books being the superior medium to first experience the story, but I would just point out that people are allowed to feel how they feel about things, and that people have a right to complain, particularly when they might feel very strong emotions about the situation. To be clear, I’m not saying that this article is trying to shut people up or say that a different viewpoint is wrong, but I have become somewhat exhausted by that mentality elsewhere. I know some people are bothered by what they see as negativity and unfair criticism of the show/showrunners, but I think people also need to understand how someone might feel cheated out of the experience they expected they’d have, which is to have read first (or to only have read). I know some would say that those people should just avoid the show and social media about it if they don’t like it, but we all know how difficult that would actually be.

      I think GoT is a solid adaptation, and that many things about it stand alone as elements of being great TV independent of that (casting, production design, acting, etc), but some of us are not able to do the “they’re separate, they can both be the best version!” thing, and I think that’s where the problem lies – if we see the progression of the story and the end on screen first, we are seeing what many consider an inferior version of the story, and that does take away from the experience. Add to that the fact that it’s not just the things that happen that are spoilers, but the things that are cut as well, and you create something that will leave a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth at best.

      People can say that’s elitist, and I don’t know that anyone would argue with that, but that doesn’t change how people feel, and it shouldn’t have to.

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    13. I remember that when I first started reading the first book I was spoiled almost every major twist and turn in the whole story. And yet ASOIAF is still my favourite book series. Like you said: Its about the journey.

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    14. I absolutely agree with your points. Besides, even though the books are surely better written I somehow enjoy the show more.

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    15. I like the show about as much as the books, so i don’t really care much who gets to tell the finale of this story. George had his chance to finish before the show, chose not to, so whatever. It’s inevitable that the show will finish first, and thats just fine with me.

      Besides – getting to watch a new episode not knowing what will happen. Wow, thats pretty darn exiting.

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    16. Here are my thoughts…

      In 1996 when people bought the book, I don’t think anybody could have imagined the phenomenon that it would become. After all, all that time a lot of people were assuming this would be a trilogy from an middling author without major success. If you had said we would be sitting here in 2014 still waiting for the series to finish, I don’t think anyone would have believed you. But then nobody would have predicted the sales of the books, that it would expand to four, five, and eventually seven (and possibly eight) books. and that it would spawn this fanatastic teleision adaptation, which is the most succesful HBO series ever in terms of ratings. So, those people who bought those books then can’t really complain as they have got so, so much more from the series tan they could have possibly imagined, even if they don’t like some things. Of course, in a way it is easy for me to say this; I was only three or four years old when AGOT was published, and didn’t start reading the series until I had seen the first two seasons of GOT so I haven’t had to wait that long.

      However despite not having to wait too long myself, it is inenvitable that the books will not be finished by 2019 at the very earliest. I don’t want to criticise GRRM for writing too slowly, curating a theatre, travelling to numerous cons, or whatever the hell he does, because he has created the most fantastic series ever, but he is a slow writer. Fact. Even assuming he finishes TWOW next year, I highly doubt he will start writing again until mid-2016 because I’m sure he will want to publicise, and rest. I can’t see him writing that quickly for the seventh book either (hey, who can blame him, he’s an old man now), so by that time the TV series will be long gone.

      After we have established this fact, you have a choice: you either drag out the TV series until the books are finished, thereby risking the chance that it will be drawn-out, loose, and fillerific, or you decide to only do a limited number of seasons, but ones, which are much more action-filled, strong, with less chance of a cancellation. Given that D&D are exhausted (who can blame them?) from the show, and the fact that showrunners changing never really works, I think that seven or eight seasons seems about right.

      Once you limit the number of seasons you are doing, plotlines have to be cut, and ideas streamlined. This might mean that hard decisions have to be made, but then at the end book readers will have the chance to read those plotlines for the first time once the books are released. Even the details that do make the show will have far, far far more details and intricacies in the books. Therefore, we get the benefit of having a good finish to the season in a decent frame of time, and the fact that we will get more details when the books are released. The majority will be happy with this scenario, and only a few will be disappointed. It is not ideal, but it certainly is the best given the situation.

      Wow, this is quite a bit longer then I was aiming for, so I will cut it short.

      Few more brief thoughts
      Agree with your LOTR point, but The Hobbit is so much of a bastardisation of the source material that is barely the same thing. Even the most ardent show-criticiser can’t say that the show, up to this point, has been more faithful than The Hobbit
      I also really love opinion pieces, especially as they are written by members of the community, and not external writers. More please.

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    17. SamJam199:
      Dragonslayer,

      I’m not sure how anything in AFFC or most of ADWD is considered good writing but whatever,it’s your opinion,doesn’t mean it’s true .

      I would say AFFC and ADWD have some of the best writing in the series (e.g. Reek chapters

      walk of shame, Meribald’s speech

      ) but these books also have the worst storytelling. I’m totally fine with every change the show makes as long as the make sense – in the show continuity!

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    18. There is one suprisingly common complaint which I consider very strange. It’s people claiming that “The show ruins the books”.

      I just don’t get it…

      I understand that some people hate the show but I don’t understand what it has to do with the books.

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    19. “The Others” are a MacGuffin.

      On the subject of the books vs the show, Martin is going to deliver WoW in 2015, what he does after that is anyone’s guess, but I am thinking that his love for the spotlight will actually become a motivator to get DoS done in time for a motion picture release in 2019. He claims he can riff 500 pages in a good year, and with an actual end in sight, he may write more quickly.

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    20. Rafael,

      Near the end of his life, and long after his greatest novels were written, James M. Cain agreed to be interviewed by a student reporter who covered culture and the arts for his college newspaper. This young man began his time with Cain by bemoaning how Hollywood had changed books such as The Postman Always Rings Twice and Double Indemnity. Before he could properly get into his rant, the old man interrupted him by pointing to a shelf of books behind his desk. “The movies didn’t change them a bit, son,” he said. “They’re all right up there. Every word is the same as when I wrote them.”

      Stephen King
      June 27th, 2013

      😉

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    21. How do we even know that the series completion will be anything like the book ending? D&D cannot completely read George’s mind though they have a basic understanding. We may be in for bigger surprises than we now suspect.

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    22. I’ve been invested in the ASOIAF world for so long, I’m really rather desperate to find out what happens to each character, and it’s genuinely starting to distract from my reading experience. Keeping it completely real, having an endpoint in sight would be a godsend!

      And if anything, my reading experience has been enriched by the sights and sounds of the show. If something is at odds with the image in my head? Well. It doesn’t take too much in terms of mental gymnastics to keep book and show separate.

      Great article Bex!

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    23. Stannis the Mannis:
      “The Others” are a MacGuffin.

      On the subject of the books vs the show, Martin is going to deliver WoW in 2015, what he does after that is anyone’s guess, but I am thinking that his love for the spotlight will actually become a motivator to get DoS done in time for a motion picture release in 2019. He claims he can riff 500 pages in a good year, and with an actual end in sight, he may write more quickly.

      There won’t be a movie. HBO owns the screen rights to all of ASoIaF, and GoT is their biggest hit since The Sopranos. They would lose many subscribers *raises hand* by putting the ending in a movie two years after the last season. I won’t even begin to address casting issues. Face it, GoT ends in 2017.

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    24. Bring on the answers. It won’t ruin the books for me. I read the first two books having already seen seasons 1 & 2. And loved having things fleshed out.

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    25. Biscotti Knight: There won’t be a movie. HBO owns the screen rights to all of ASoIaF, and GoT is their biggest hit since The Sopranos. They would lose many subscribers *raises hand* by putting the ending in a movie two years after the last season. I won’t even begin to address casting issues. Face it, GoT ends in 2017.

      HBO owns the option… which will run out if they don’t use it. Movies will happen. Some day.

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    26. Valaquen,

      An adaptation especially does not need to show complete fidelity and because books and movies are two different mediums they can never be the same.

      No matter how many times this is stated, there are people who just don’t get it. Not sure if explaining it again will do any good. I loved the books (for the most part) enjoyed the show (usually) and will more than likely read whatever Martin comes up with no matter what D&D decide to show us. I actually can consider two takes of a story at a time without my head exploding. So I agree with all of the above.

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    27. ColdFeet: want the show to be a direct word for word adaptation.

      … which means that it’s not adapted in the slightest! We only need to look at the first two Harry Potter films to see how badly that goes.

      To use my prior analogy, B&W’s job is to turn a shark into a T. rex. The mistake that fans make is to compare the dinosaur to the fish: compare the fish to other fish and the dinosaur to other dinosaurs. Neither is inherently superior to the other: it’s just as different as living in the sea vs. living on land.

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    28. Yeeeah.. that’s nice ‘n all, but I’m still completely tuning out of the show as soon as it starts to officially and primarily cover brand new material.

      I’ll admit I watched the show before reading the books (and have to thank the show for it), but once I read them all, I was way more sold on the original telling; that’s just my personal preference. I want to see the story unfold and end the way GRRM tells it. Once that’s done (in about another decade) I’ll get around to finishing the show.

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    29. Renly’s Peach,

      I have heard this argument before, and at first I could understand, but, and it’s a big but, it isn’t realistically going to happen.

      After the red wedding, news of it was all over the internet, and even the news, and in places completely unrelated to the show. At the end of GoT I can guarantee that who is sitting on the Iron Throne will be big news, and will be unavoidable. Will you know all the details? Of course not, but you will know some of what happens. Despite this I can see ypur point of view, but I can’t see it working.

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    30. ffiferoo:

      I think GoT is a solid adaptation, and that many things about it stand alone as elements of being great TV independent of that (casting, production design, acting, etc), but some of us are not able to do the “they’re separate, they can both be the best version!” thing, and I think that’s where the problem lies – if we see the progression of the story and the end on screen first, we are seeing what many consider an inferior version of the story, and that does take away from the experience.Add to that the fact that it’s not just the things that happen that are spoilers, but the things that are cut as well, and you create something that will leave a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth at best.

      Simple solution: Just don’t watch the show.

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    31. Jeb: After the red wedding, news of it was all over the internet, and even the news, and in places completely unrelated to the show

      That is true. And it is also true that the vast majority of people don’t know about it. The entertainment news borders on pointless: it essentially is talking to the choir in that the vast majority of people who read articles about shows, movies or books after they are released are people who have seen/read it. At most, people know that the show killed off a lot of “good guys” in that episode: but unless they’ve watched the show, then anything else that they might hear slides right out of their brains because it lacks any context.

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    32. I’m one of those who just wants a conclusion already. I’m not the type who can obsess forever on the same thing, and I tend to move on after a while. I like the story a lot, but I’d rather get an ending while I still care about it.

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    33. sj4iy: I like the story a lot, but I’d rather get an ending while I still care about it.

      Indeed, between all of the years and the mediocrity of Crows, I had almost completely forgotten about SoI&F! The TV series rekindled my interest hugely. (Dragons being a big step back up in quality helped, too!)

      Indeed, I remember watching the 3rd or 4th episode, where Ned says farewell to Jon, with something clawing at the back of my mind:

      and then I announced to my wife: that’s right! Jon’s Ned’s nephew, not his son!!!!

      . She looked at me quizzically and then got a shocked “geez, how did I forget about that?” look! (She couldn’t read Crows, and hasn’t read any of the books since Swords came out 14 years ago; at this point, she remembers almost nothing about them.)

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    34. jentario:
      Fuck my tits. I wrote a pretty long and on-topic post and it took me to an error page. Gone.

      This happened to me as well. If it happens again, here’s what worked for me:

      Click the back arrow. It should take you back a page and to your comment, pre posting. Try “post comment” again. Copy and save your comment before you do so, just in case. Do NOT hit refresh.

      I’m sorry you lost the post–one of the most frustrating things!

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    35. Isabelle,

      Credit where credit’s due! I don’t have the patience to craft thought pieces such as this one, so I’m glad there are members here who do it so well!

      I’m the last person you have to explain errant Halloween internet activities to 🙂

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    36. Of course its a good thing. Theres no way in hell it wont at some point in time. GRRM is to blame in the sense “his fame” has distracted him and took him out of his creative zone he had before the HBO series. The first 3 books came out 2 years in between each other and the story was so rich and epic. Once a buzz began he was travelling making appearances interviews etc the next 2 books (AFFC/ADWD) took 11 years between them and now EVEN IF TWOW miraculously drops by 2016 IT WILL BE ATLEAST 2021-2022 before A DREAM IF SPRING sees the light..years after HBOS series finale. I honestly think hes stuck and all the theories and fan questions day after day has had an impact on his story in some sense or the other. So fans sullied or unsullied should be happy when show passes books cuz it will be at least 6-7 maybe even 8 years before the ending is published

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    37. FOR THE WATCH:
      Of course its a good thing. Theres no way in hell it wont at some point in time. GRRM is to blame in the sense “his fame” has distracted him and took him out of his creative zone he had before the HBO series. The first 3 books came out 2 years in between each other and the story was so rich and epic. Once a buzz began he was travelling making appearances interviews etc the next 2 books (AFFC/ADWD)took 11 years between them and now EVEN IF TWOW miraculously drops by 2016 IT WILL BE ATLEAST 2021-2022 before A DREAM IF SPRING sees the light..years after HBOS series finale. I honestly think hes stuck and all the theories and fan questions day after day has had an impact on his story in some sense or the other. So fans sullied or unsullied should be happy when show passes books cuz it will be at least 6-7 maybe even 8 years before the ending is published

      Granted, not everyone is an infant-minded adult suffering from terrible upbringing which makes them so impatient they have to belittle the genius who made the thing they claim to love enough to crap all over its god.

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    38. The journey vs the destination. Mmphhh. You can take a 747 or you can drive. You can take the Interstates or the federal highways or the county roads. Or the train. Which will provide you with a better sense of the journey? The view from 30,000 feet or driving through small towns or cutting through neighbourhoods in a domed observation car.

      The visual adaptation is fine for getting the story told, and 70 hours to tell what will be close to 10,000 pages is the 747 view at worst or the I-80 view at best. Where the adaptation lacks is in the colour commentary. Would you want to watch a sporting event on TV with no colour commentary, or Kyron graphics? Same thing, showing Dragonstone, for example, with only Stan and Mel and Davos rattling around that huge castle on their own, without normal folk bringing it to life. Ditto the Dreadfort. You’re zipping through at a breakneck pace without the ability to stop in the town diner or wander off to see that waterfall a half-mile down the dirt road. You get there faster but poorer for the experience lost.

      I also think the show will end nicely enough. The BigBad(s)™ will surely be defeated, the overall forces of “good” (for lack of a better term) will ultimately prevail but it probably won’t be a true happily ever after. Westeros, after all, is a complex and huge place and one king or queen on a prickly chair will never make everybody happy.

      I tend to think George will write the Iron Throne out by the end and we’ll probably see local or regional rule, but the end result will be the ending of the threat from the far North, and I’d wager that we’ll see the end of the dragons and magic at the same time as the Wall falls, and I have no doubt it will.

      The Starks that live will be changed but there will once again be a true Stark in Winterfell. The Dreadfort will be razed, houses Bolton and Frey will die out or be wiped out, and house Lannister will go to either Tyrion or A Player To Be Named Later. I’m hoping for Good Things for Sandor, Arya, Tyrion and especially Davos–(or at least noble and powerfully meaningful deaths).

        Quote  Reply

    39. Jeb,

      You can avoid spoilers if you’re smart about it and know what to watch out for. It’s really not too hard.

      Reinier,

      So much for Dany being alone and taking charge of the situation by herself. Seriously? Even Missandei is in on it?

        Quote  Reply

    40. Reinier,

      [It seems like you and Cami discovered this simultaneously on different threads.]

      Geez, the show has gathered a few moles this season. Me no likey the implications of this peek. Are they all going to hop on D’s back? Are they escaping from the mass Harpy attack thru the Pit’s battlefield? Will Jorah get his kiss? Is that Tyrion’s leg in the background? Waat da fook? I must avert my eyes!

      D&D have gone nutters!

        Quote  Reply

    41. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I highly doubt it means they are all going for a ride…. Could simply be that Daario and co ran down after Dany to defend her (or run for cover? Notice the people in the background), but she steps forward ultimately and, well you know the rest.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Nicely written and thought provoking but I disagree with your main point namely

      Knowing how it ends doesn’t make the journey any less fun.

      To me, GRRM’s writing strengths are a) his plotting and b) his dialogue. Which is why they make for great tv. But it isn’t the best writing in the world. It’s first and foremost a very compelling story. A lot of the thrill comes simply from finding out what happens next. Once you remove that, it does tarnish it for me. I watched season one and then read the books. I had more enjoyment from the tv season one compared to the book, and then conversely the other books compared to the subsequent tv seasons because they told me the story first.

      On balance I’d rather find out the story through the books as it is a richer medium and presents GRRM’s true vision. If I find out through the adaptation it will spoil the books – for me.

        Quote  Reply

    43. ColdFeet:
      This is what I’ve been trying to say for a while now in response to the die-hard book readers who want the show to be a direct word for word adaptation. Couldn’t agree more!!

      I just can’t understand people who say things “the show has ruined the books for me”. Have the published books had dialogue and narrative changed within? NO. Have the published books had characters/stories removed or new characters/stories inserted? NO. Is anything stopping you reading the published books and enjoying them as they are written? NO. Is anything forcing you to watch the show? NO.

      The books are a great work of literary fiction and I enjoy reading them; the show is great and I enjoy watching it: the fact that the two diverge perhaps ever more worries me not. I look forward to the resolution of both and how the books may (assuming they are published before I shuffle off this mortal coil) arrive at their destination in a different way to that seen in the show I find intriguing not a disgrace that the show will “spoil” it.

      Honestly I think some would only be happy if the show consisted of the camera pointing at the book pages with someone turning them over every so often.

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    44. Renly’s Peach,

      We’ve already seen a few pictures indicating that in the show the Sons of the Harpy will attack directly instead of just trying to poison her, causing a massacre (hence the dead but not charred bodies in the back.) It seems Dany’s people will try to escort her out of the Pit to safety, but Drogon will come, maybe in this version not just because of the noise but because of the attack, and… well, we don’t know, but presumably it’ll go like in the books.

      It also means Jorah wins whatever fight he has to win to get on Dany’s good graces before the Harpy attack happens! That’s the biggest spoilers of that picture for me, honestly. It probably means Jorah will also get on Dany’s good graces somehow in TWOW.

      So, what’s the deal? The attack happens, Dany is going to be escorted out of the Pit and then Drogon comes? The scene is starting to take shape. I like it. Now, I would only ask where Tyrion features on all this, beyond what we already saw.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Hello to WOTW- I want to report a problem. It seems that whenever I try to post something long (or at least about half of the time) on the mobile site, I get this message “your request times out, please retry the request”. When I press back, the comment is gone. As you can imagine, that’s pretty annoying. I’d appreciate it if you would investigate the problem 🙂

      GeekFurious,

      And not everyone is an infant minded adult who has to belittle everyone who disagrees with him, either.

      GRRM used to be great at his job, and then something happened. We don’t exactly know what, but something clicked. He’s now completely disregarded timelines, and has become completely dellusional about the show’s pace (3 seasons of AFFC and ADWD, George? Really? And then the movie crap?). I know that if I shat over the timelines in MY job, I’d have gotten fired for it long ago, no matter how good the finished product is (and it’s safe to say AFFC and ADWD are much less liked than the first three novels, so it doesn’t seem like the long development time actually improved the books).

      At this point, TWOW will come out late in 2015 if GRRM works a miracle, but most likely in 2016 and quite possibly after the show spoils most of TWOW’s major events. ADOS is at least 6-7 years away, that’s 3-4 years after the show has told the ending already. How many people will stay interested? I think I will, but I don’t think many others will too. The minority that surfs these forums and is wholly devoted to talking about the show and the books? Absolutely. But I am willing to bet that a large portion of the less faithful book readers won’t bother with ADOS, let alone the very likely 8th book (which will come out a DECADE after the story would be finished in the show).

      At this point, it’s not a matter of patience anymore. GRRM failed big time by not giving a shit while the show plowed along. That will have a major impact on his sales, which would have reached a new peak if he’d have finished first, no doubt; and it will have a major impact on his fanbase as well. People will stop caring and they will watch the show to sarisfy their needs and they will give up on the books, all because GRRM decided he’s too good to work a job like a normal human being and actually try writing.

      What I like about having the show, is that no matter how far the books get (because they may never get finished) and how long it takes (in my opinion it’ll be 8 books, if GRRM can manage to finish the last one without Elio and Linda pitching in- which I would never read, btw), I’ll always know I have the ending right here. The ending to the story that the old GRRM, the one I still admire, wrote and planned in the first place and that D&D are committed to- even if the journey is a little bit different, even if some characters are cut, even if whole storylines are cut. With the show, there is an end in sight- something that should be true about every series that has passed its mid point, IMO- and that would make the wait for the books much less stressful. As far as I’m concerned, now that we have the show, GRRM can even not finish. He can do whatever the fuck he wants, and I won’t care.

      Peace.

        Quote  Reply

    46. jentario,

      I don’t know how to do a bowing emoticon on WOTW, but pretend I posted one. Having an end in sight is very important. Good that you touched on that. Also your mic-drop ending helps in making the whole of what you wrote all the better.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Luka Nieto,

      Indeed. When you write something and know the mechanics of it all you treat it much more like work than scripture. Of course his hangers-on will hear none of that…

        Quote  Reply

    48. Hoyti Von Totiy:
      Theresa bigger chance of a sequel to the Holy Bible beeing written by Stephen King then GRRM finishing ASOIAF.

      Of course the show will pass the books.

      I concur with your second statement – I wouldn’t completely discard any possibility of the book series being finished, but if that happens it will (I believe) be some considerable time in the future. I’ve said on other threads (or maybe it was when I used to regularly visit the site that shall not be named) that not being in the first flush of youth need not preclude a writer from bringing out works of worth. Two (whose work I like – though what I like other people may not) I can think of that write/wrote despite having entered into senior citizenship are P D James (British thriller writer) who is in her 80s and the late James A Michener (American writer) who wrote epic (usually historical) novels; he was still writing in his 90s when he died. I’m sure there are other decent writers who have brought out/are bringing out work despite being “full of years”, albeit I don’t know them. By such criteria, being a mere slip of a lad in his 60s, GRRM is in with at least a fighting chance of finishing ASOIAF.

      I’m adding an “edit” to clarify that James A Michener was not literally writing on his deathbed – on re-reading the post what I had written was ambiguous.

        Quote  Reply

    49. I don’t agree with your opinions about GRRM. Nor with most people’s opinions about D&D. Have some sense of nuance. These rants about how either or both of these parties “obviously don’t give a shit” about this or that are just tiresome. You spend too much energy writing off frustrations about something you obviously take very seriously. If that makes you feel entitled, good for you. Feel proud. Don’t bother us with your opinion over and over.

      Vagina penis.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Lollius Palicanus,

      I think it’s pretty clear that GRRM hasn’t devoted himself to the books in the last few years. I remember him confessing to have only written 200 pages since ADWD in a pre-season 3 interview (that’s 200 pages in two years). He’s been delaying writing ASOIAF, and instead taking up a hoard of lesser projects like the many anthologies he edits and like TWOIAF. He’s also been going to way too many conventions all around the world for a man that says he can’t write while traveling… It seems like he really tried his best to put himself out of a work environment with regards to TWOW. If that’s not a lack of care for his fans and for his own series (considering D&D will be finishing his story first), then I don’t know what is.

      But I agree on the vagina penis thing

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    51. I am sullied and I have to say, what I care about most is that both the show and the book are well done. I’m no purist, the books and the books and the show is the show, but the show has done a great job overall with quality, so I think that’s the most important aspect rather than faithfulness. I think D&D understand some of the core characters from the books quite well and the casting and production values are outstanding such that their stories and character development is portrayed well onscreen.

      It’s true that ASOIAF is different from other stories in that nothing is predictable. That being said, knowing the ending on the show is not going to stop me from reading the books because they are so much more that just a plotline.

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    52. I’ve probably read a total of 5 books in my life. I watch a lot of TV and then still have plenty of time for intercourse. Tis a good thing that the show will finish first.

      Penis enters vagina.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Isabelle,

      Click the back arrow. It should take you back a page and to your comment, pre posting. Try “post comment” again. Copy and save your comment before you do so, just in case. Do NOT hit refresh.

      Yup, I discovered that the first time I got that error message. Its weird, have no idea why the message appears, but this works, every time.

        Quote  Reply

    54. jentario,

      He’s a person, not a corporation. And he’s 66 years old. So I don’t mind him having enjoyed his popularity and his life, especially because he doesn’t do it in an obnoxious way. That being said: a couple of things.
      I personally think that GRRM was himself a bit surprised by the intensity of all the stuff he was doing. If you’ve been following his blog and interviews over the past years, he describes a lot of his travels a bit like chores. As obligations towards his editor and HBO. This is especially clear when he has a good interview, which is an obvious relief to him. The only side-project he seems to enjoy really is his movie theatre, which is his right. Also, as far as I know, he hasn’t really taken on any new side-projects since ADWD finished. The World of Ice and Fire had already been promised, for example (http://grrm.livejournal.com/219080.html, also see http://grrm.livejournal.com/283248.html). So Lowball will still come out soon, and then there’s not much he still has to do except TWOW.
      George not doing an episode any more confirms his priority at the moment is TWOW. It may still be in the distant future. Look at his latest interviews, he seems a bit distraught by the prospect. It may indicate we will have to wait for a long time, but it also indicates he does care.
      Those 200 pages were probably ‘finished pages’, it doesn’t say anything about the drafts for instance. Re-writing is often the hardest part of writing.

      Vagina bones down on penis.

        Quote  Reply

    55. jentario,

      People will stop caring and they will watch the show to satisfy their needs and they will give up on the books, all because GRRM decided he’s too good to work a job like a normal human being and actually try writing.

      If you are talking specifically about this audience right here, you might be right. Might be. But otherwise I doubt it, Jent. I seriously doubt that the books Martin comes out with 7 yrs from now will be less read just because the show spoiled them. You are talking about TV generations here. TV shows have a rather short time expiration stamp on them.

      7 yrs from now, let’s say 2021 for example, most won’t bother with re-runs of shows that were good a decade ago because they will be flooded with new good shows. But Martin, if he pulls good writing, which I believe he can, Martin can still make the NY Times best-seller list. New nerds that joined the adulthood will probably pick up the books curious to see what this is all about. They won’t necessarily be spoiled as GoT hype will die down and the net won’t be full with articles about who lived and who died on GoT.

      That’s not to say I agree with GeekFurious,’s ridiculously belittling and rather offensive statement towards someone who disagrees with his opinion about the writing and work ethic of a public figure.

      OFF TOPIC: I get the same message as several posters mentioned above. Not only from the mobile, but from my laptop too.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Ser Osis of Liver,

      Would you want to watch a sporting event on TV with no colour commentary,

      Actually the reason why I stopped watching the Olympics on tv was the obnoxious color commentary. When I read I have a movie running in my head, I see the images that I am reading. I expect to be shown that story, not told it. Good movies and tv shows do the same – they don’t rely on constant chatter, but show me the story unfolding. While I think George is a fantastic story teller, sometimes he takes this too far, and i end up skipping pages till he’s done. The beauty of the show is that they have cut a lot of this ‘non story’ from the book and made it tighter and cleaner, so the story could be shown. And if in doing so it becomes its own story, well so much the better, two stories in one!

      Jaime’s girl,

      I am sullied and I have to say, what I care about most is that both the show and the book are well done. I’m no purist, the books and the books and the show is the show, but the show has done a great job overall with quality, so I think that’s the most important aspect rather than faithfulness. I think D&D understand some of the core characters from the books quite well and the casting and production values are outstanding such that their stories and character development is portrayed well onscreen.

      Yes, this.

        Quote  Reply

    57. I’m going to add a plus one to people who have had comments time our; back works as well.for me

      Also with regards to whether the show woukd spoil the books, you could find.out what happens reading the wikipedia articles, but actually reading the books will give you more depth, detail, on and more enjoyment.

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    58. Mine is the Furry,

      Lord of the Rings is a trilogy, I’ve got also Blood Meridian down for you and 5 ASoIaF books. But penis DOES enter vagina. I think you just saved yourself there, Ry or I’d have called you a liar LOL

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    59. Strider,

      It’s not just because of the TV show though, the show will just contribute to the already frustrating wait by giving readers a simple, short alternative. That’s not to say that the book won’t sell truckloads, it will, but I think that it could sell a lot more than it will. I am willing to bet that when GRRM is still working on book 8 seven years from now, a lot of people will lose interest. Talk to me ten years from now and compare the TWOW (which will be selling at the peak of the story’s interest, with the show still going on) and the book 8 sales figures. I’m willing to bet ten thousand Dolans.

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    60. LJA: Simple solution: Just don’t watch the show.

      I’m sure you read the sentence before what you quoted: “I know some would say that those people should just avoid the show and social media about it if they don’t like it, but we all know how difficult that would actually be.”

      This is what I mean by people trying to get people to stop complaining when they have a valid reason to be unhappy. Here’s my simple solution: if you don’t like the unpopular opinion, ignore it.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Strider: Lord of the Rings is a trilogy

      Actually, it is one story divided into three volumes by the publisher (and not with the author’s blessing.) Strictly speaking, a trilogy is three distinct stories with over-arching plot elements: the last two are sequels to the first two.

      /pedantic.

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    62. I reread all the LotR books, before the first movie came out, which led to detailed obsession with all the changes they had made to the books. When the second movie came out, the books were not so fresh in my memory, and, as it turned out, I discovered I enjoyed the film much more that way.

      It would probably be better just to let the tv-series just be its own thing and enjoy it on its own terms, but then people who do obsess with the series/books/story are the ones who are best represented on boards like this 😉

      As for the show passing the books, I think it is inevitable. There is no way in hell is GRRM going to get ADOS out before 2017 with his gardening speed.
      The only question is whether he will get WOTW out before season 6 or not and whether the major spoilage will take place S6 or only S7.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Rygar,

      Canon says different. Horn is not involved. It’s the flute and it’s the other way around.

      Wimsey,

      Strictly speaking Lord of the Rings is comprised of three volumes, physical books published at different dates, yes. Bet Ry read three different tomes. His total of physical books read count is still up to 9. LOL

        Quote  Reply

    64. Hodorkovski: I reread all the LotR books, before the first movie came out, which led to detailed obsession with all the changes they had made to the books.

      And this is sort of key. The movie didn’t make changes to the “book”: the book wasn’t a movie script. It couldn’t be: like all books, it was a horrible TV/movie script.

      The important issue is, did it make changes to the story? Tolkien wrote that Lord of the Rings was a story about Death and Immortality. You can sort of see that: but others have said that he really wrote a story about Preserving and Restoring Natural Order. At any rate, Jackson & Co. certainly thought that: because that was the story they told.

      To that end, they cut a lot of stuff that was irrelevant to the story (and, yes, Tolkien himself admitted that Bombadil was irrelevant to his story), and they streamlined unimportant details to make the visual presentation more cohesive (and, yes, Glorfindel was unimportant to the story).

      The films succeeded so well commercially and critically because they told a story very well in a very entertaining fashion. We can contrast that with the first two Harry Potter films, which used the book as a script, and got very tepid audience response & critical reactions. Whereas Rings saw ticket sales go up over three films, HP saw a 35% drop in sales following the first two “let’s use the book as scripts” films. (The audience rebounded only after they used adapted scripts: which also got much better critical marks, too!)

      Now, I don’t know if there are any full-fledged Bombadils in SoI&F. I do know that there are a lot of Glorfindels. I also am quite sure that although Martin has written 4 solid books (and Crows), he’s written 5 awful TV/Movies scripts.

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    65. Wimsey,

      Yes but that’s kind of saying that critical and mass appeal = s better quality. I don’t think the story was told well. It was about three hours too long. The films have atrocious directing. I can’t name one non fantasy reader or non Token enthusiast who has watched them multiple times. Anyone care to see another far away shot sweeping the landscape or dramatic hair blowing techniques? Not I, I’d rather pull out and ejaculate on his ass.

      Ps I accidentally used Rygar.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Tori Targaryen,

      I guess it all comes down to who in that photo survives Drogon’s zesty breath and/or the Harpy’s wrath? Imo, it doesn’t look good for Jorah. Maybe his last act will enable Dany to reach Drogon? I hope he gets that kiss though. I’m welling up already….

      Selmy? He’s missing all the fun! Where is he? My mind seems to be focused on this issue more than the obvious S5 ending sequence.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Kind of puzzled about why GRRM’s book sales are even a topic of concern. Are you profit sharing with him? He doesn’t need the money. If you need some kind of objective validation like sales numbers to confirm that you like something, there are plenty of objectively better books, like Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey. You can read them while listening to One Direction and Taylor Swift, and feel extremely validated that you have chosen the best things in the world to be a fan of.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Wimsey: I also am quite sure that although Martin has written 4 solid books (and Crows), he’s written 5 awful TV/Movies scripts.

      I thought S2: Blackwater and S4: The Lion and the Rose were quite well written for the screen. 🙂

      “Awful” is an awfully strong word. “Difficult to adapt” is more like it.

      Mine is the Furry,

      The “lighting of the beacons” scene in RotK is one of my favorite scenes ever. That was well adapted and extremely well-conceived. No actors were necessary. I believe that scene alone won the oscar for RotK.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Mine is the Furry:
      Wimsey,

      Yes but that’s kind ofsaying that critical and mass appeal = s better quality.I don’t think the story was told well.It was about three hours too long.The films have atrocious directing.I can’t name one non fantasy reader or non Token enthusiast who has watched them multiple times. Anyone care to see another far away shot sweeping the landscape or dramatic hair blowing techniques?Not I, I’d rather pull out and ejaculate on his ass.

      Ps I accidentallyused Rygar.

      Are you talking about the Theatrical release or the extended edition? If the latter then it was about 4 hour too long 😛

      And I hate Token enthusiasts, it’s Political Correctness gone mad.

        Quote  Reply

    70. All Hail the Wolf Girl: Are you talking about the Theatrical release or the extended edition?If the latter then it was about 4 hour too long

      And I hate Token enthusiasts, it’s Political Correctness gone mad.

      They have an extended edition? Is that gun loaded? I’m about to off myself.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Thanks Reinier for the Osuna pics! I almost missed the link reading this thread.

      Hodor’s Bastard:

      Selmy? He’s missing all the fun! Where is he? My mind seems to be focused on this issue more than the obvious S5 ending sequence.
      I cannot imagine where the hell he is. Selmy and Grey Worm. Selmy is Dany’s Queensgard. There has to be something extremely important to keep him away. He could be in some mission with Grey Worm, trying to bring the some mercenary company on Dany’s side (maybe the Golden Company since they did name dropped that in previous season) . I don’t think he’s dead. Which brings me to my next speculation question: will we see a mercenary company or is that out of the window too?

      I looked a full minute at that pic. Enlarged it too. Read your previous comment and I see the foot, but if I take into account who sat on the pit’s dais that should be Hizdar, no?

        Quote  Reply

    72. Strider,

      Hmmmm…

      I think show!Hizdahr is serving as the book!Shavepate as well. He has enough motive to align with those nice Harpy folk. He will be Dany’s undoing. I hope Drogon/Jorah/Tyrion takes him out first.

        Quote  Reply

    73. ShockMeSane,

      Where in my post did I say that I give the smallest shit about GRRM’s sales? I don’t. It was just my little guess of how GRRM will suffer from the mess he put himself into. I’ve already made my opinion.

      Granted, GRRM still has the power to change it (by writing good books in a reasonable time), but I think all the motivation will run out of him the moment the show overtakes him, and then he’d just slow down even more. Which is saying something.

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    74. ShockMeSane:
      Kind of puzzled about why GRRM’s book sales are even a topic of concern. Are you profit sharing with him?

      Yes, both Jenatrio and I are profit sharing with him. So obviously, since this is a topic about how the show passes the books we decided to come and discuss how our financial future will be affected by that.

      No, not really. We were discussing if the books will be less read if the books passes the show. Discussions evolve, you know. But you can definitely stay puzzled as far as I’m concerned!

        Quote  Reply

    75. Just wanna say i agree with everything Jent said and i’m doubling his bet to 20.000 donals.

      F/M/K Lotr edition
      Fuck Galadriel
      Marry Liv Tyler
      Kill Strider

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    76. Btw, i know Morgoth is obviously a fan of Lotr i want to know what he thinks of the Lotr comparison, if he reads this comments.
      Also, im having the same error message and can’t edit my previous comment, that’s why im making a new one. I’m on mobile.

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    77. Season 5 will help me decide whether the show is a good adaption or not for me.
      I think people are pefectly entitled to worry about the adaption and whether it’s a good (if not accurate) depiction of what happens in the books. Of course the show can spoil the ending as unless D&D go completely off the farm then the key endings are going ot be the same. So it’s unavoidable that the show is going to spoil the major storylines endings for the books.
      Also, Desolation of Smaug wouldn’t be my choice of an example of how an adaption can work well with a few changes! The first Hobbit film was very good but the second one really needed to ditch a lot of the elf stuff and the silly love triangle!

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    78. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
      As you say, at least you are guaranteed an ending, which the dragging out of the book releases makes increasingly unlikely( I’m not speculating on Martin’s health, just not too sure he actually is able to wrap it all up, judging by the filler in the last few books).

      On the minus side we’ve already had a certain amount of book-spoiling done already, via character omissions. We know the plotlines of LS, AT & JC, and EG & VG will not amount to anything much, so there’s not any point looking forward to their next book appearances. They’ve been omitted from the series and as the ending of both book and series are apparently going to be roughly the same, it’s a fair conclusion to draw. If you liked those characters, it’s a bit of a kicker.

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    79. TheTouchOfFrost,

      I honestly think the whole “Hobbit trilogy” the most cynical piece of behaviour I’ve seen from the movie industry for quite some time. Even more than splitting the last Harry Potter movie into two for no real reason.
      You could probably read the book, which was meant for children so is a pretty easy read, in less than the three hours the movie takes.

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    80. Hodor’s Bastard: “Awful” is an awfully strong word. “Difficult to adapt” is more like it.

      No, “awful” is the right word because even the best novels are awful scripts. The best novels also are awful poems. Now, if Martin were writing this as a TV/Movie script or a poem, then he would have written them very differently: and then the scripts or poems would be awful novels. It is not just that you need to do different things to make the same story a good novel, a good script or a good poem: it also is that you need to do fundamentally contradictory things (“X, not Y or Z” for one; “Y, not X or Z” or another; “Z, not X or Y” for the third). This is why adaptation is always necessary to successfully transfer a story from one medium to another: each one has “gills” and “fins” that need to be replaced with “lungs” “legs” or even “wings” to tell the same story in that different medium. A shark, a tyrannosaur and a bird-of-prey are all great predators: but the shark makes for a lousy terrestrial or flying animal, the tyrannosaur makes for a lousy marine or flying animal, and the bird-of-prey makes for a lousy marine or terrestrial animal. The same logical construct holds for stories (predation!), novels (marine living!), TV/Movie (terrestrial living!) and poetry (flying!).

      Now, how difficult it is to adapt a tale from one medium to another is a completely different beast. Often adapting the story (!predator!) is easier than adapting the plot for one reason: even if a complex plot is not detrimental to telling Story X in a novel**, then it almost always is in a script. Plot and character development should serve story: and therefore if there are plot lines or characters that would hinder storytelling in a new medium to which you are adapting a tale (e.g., SPEW from Harry Potter, or Scouring in Lord of the Rings), then they should be cut. SoI&F definitely is a case where adapting the story(yes) is a lot easier than adapting the plot(s).

      **: and it sometimes is: the entire “which was worse: Dorne or Iron Islands?” debate that so often resurfaces can be rephrased as “Martin introduced needless complexity with the Dorne or/and Iron Island plot lines: which one was more needless?”

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    81. Fall_Of_Byzantium: I honestly think the whole “Hobbit trilogy” the most cynical piece of behaviour I’ve seen from the movie industry for quite some time.

      I don’t know how it is “cynical” in any way. I did wonder if it was necessary, but I have come to suspect that after Rings, it was either this or nothing at all. Tolkien himself wrote more than once that he’d write the Hobbit very differently if he could write it again after he had published Rings. After all, Bilbo just found a magic ring, not The One Ring, Gandalf was just a wizard, not one of the Istari, the Necromancer was just an excuse to get Gandalf out of the way for a bit, not Sauron the Great, etc., etc.

      PJ & Co. do what Tolkien partially does in his appendices to Rings: draw the Hobbit into the Big Picture. Now, people might say: “but the Hobbit works fine without the Big Picture,” but that’s because almost everyone reads it before they read the Big Picture story. (The usual order of progression is The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and three failed attempts to get past the first chapter of the Silmarillion…..)

      For me, the Hobbit represents a great example of “enjoy” vs “appreciate.” These have not been good films: they have badly over-told the story, and in making a film that the Rings audience would appreciate, they have wound up heavily exposing Tolkien’s tendency to recycle general arcs. (He just cannot help but to return Kings, can he!) And yet, I really enjoy them: a guilty pleasure to be certain, but a pleasure nonetheless! (I am looking forward to the extended edition: I’m sure that: 1) it will be bad and 2) that I will love it!)

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    82. Fall_Of_Byzantium,

      I didn’t mind it initially as thought it could be interesting but they’ve focused on the wrong things/made up things (Would have preferred more time with Beorn than Legolas’ girlfriend) that has detracted from the story which should be about Bilbo and the dwarves. Still, will see how the last film pans out before I completely write it off as did quite enjoy the first one.

      jentario,

      We shall see. Confident the Arya, Kings Landing and The Wall stuff will be good but still have some question marks over the North and Mereen and feel as though I’m going to struggle to give a shit about Dorne even though they’ve drafted in two of my favourite characters to help out down there. Not to mention Brienne and Sansa which could get very messy! Hopefully they will continue to make sensible changes (which for the most part they have so far) and streamline in the right places.

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    83. First of all, I want to thank you, Bex, and the staff of WOTW for giving me this opportunity and for posting it on the site. It’s truly an honor, and I feel really happy for contributing to one of my favorite sites.
      Also, thanks to everyone for commenting and giving your sincere opinions. My main goal was to inspire conversation, and to see 100+ comments, it’s really gratifying. I couldn’t feel happier.
      Cheers, and all the best. 🙂

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    84. Rygar:
      Wimsey,

      This is true. As is the fact that Boromir penetrates Aragorns anus with his horn.

      I was about to be disappointed by the lack of anal in your posts…
      And hail to king Morgoth (good job monsieur) who i met on a subversive site, so gross that no one can type it’s name (writing it would have made Caligula blushed).
      Feel the need to be spanked by Geekfurious for this (yummy yummy, i got love in my tummy).

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    85. Reinier,

      Nice!

      It’s kind of hard to tell but

      I’m pretty sure that Tyrion is next to Missandei. You can see his feet and his yellow outfit the he’s been wearing in the Meereen pics.

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    86. Wimsey:
      **: and it sometimes is: the entire “which was worse: Dorne or Iron Islands?” debate that so often resurfaces can be rephrased as “Martin introduced needless complexity with the Dorne or/and Iron Island plot lines: which one was more needless?”

      “Needless”? I don’t see how we can assume anything is needless at this point in the tale.

      My responses and comments seem to inspire interesting lectures from you, all of which are taken quite well. As others have inferred, directly and indirectly, S5 will truly be the season that will inspire many debates regarding what is selective pathtaking vs. Sullied spoilerdom. We will all react differently to each show path taken, that is for sure, for better or worse.

      OT: As I was reading your response and other’s take on things, this rough-legged hawk with a 3ft wingspan landed on a tall fence post about 15 ft from me. It surveyed the ground for about 2 minutes, often looking directly at me as if challenging me to move, its sharp eyes implying “Watch this….” Then it suddenly took off, immediately dove and snatched up an unfortunate chipmunk right before my eyes. Totally surprising yet perfectly puzzled out with logic and chaos…sort of how I want to see ASoI&F culminate. 🙂

      Cheers!

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    87. SamJam199,

      Nuance. It’s not like every book fan is a purist. It’s only that people with negative opinions tend to be very vocal and repeat their opinions often. Like I said before, this goes both for people with negative views on the show and those who don’t like AFFC and/or ADWD.

      Euhm, …, male motorboating.

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    88. SamJam199,

      I’m sorry, who is making you read anything? People are free to express their views, whatever they are either way. Why are people trying to manufacture a rift between book and show and labelling of each type of fan? I enjoy both but I’m entitled to be concerned about the show going forward as, personally, I find that when shows stray away from their source material they get worse. You need to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Some fans have a different opinion to you. They’re entitled to that. To hate a whole fandom for the views of some of it is pretty narrow-minded. The fact you’re online in a GoT community, discussing issues related to the show/books with like-minded individuals suggests you’re part of the fandom. If you don’t like the discussions then there’s nothing stopping you leaving. So, apologies for being blunt but put up or shut up.
      People profaning unreasonable and childish opinions are rarer then hens teeth on this forum as the Mods have cultivated a good community here. Be thankful that such a community exists for us instead of focussing on the minor issues present elsewhere.

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    89. Grey Worm and Barristan are dead, people. Let’s move on. Did you seriously think everyone was coming out of Meereen alive? No one of importance has died in Dany’s story since season 1 (Khal Drogo AND Viserys), it’s about time.

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    90. The thing I find disappointing about the fandom is that they don’t know how to pick their battles. They complain about every little change so when something comes that merits criticism our voices don’t carry weight.

      For example in season 1 people complained about Summer barking because wolves don’t bark. This was a seriously very effing petty argument. In season 2 people complained that Dany got her dragons stolen when it was obvious as *uck that she was going to get them back at the house of the undying. In season 3 people complained about the red wedding..for not being exactly like the book? This was strange as the adaptation was good and the episode hit me hard even though I knew what was coming.

      When true changes that merited critisim came such as Tyrion killing Shae in self defense and skipping the whole Tysha reveal despite it already having build up since season 1, our voices where nerfed thanks to all the other petty complaints.

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    91. ffiferoo: I’m sure you read the sentence before what you quoted: “I know some would say that those people should just avoid the show and social media about it if they don’t like it, but we all know how difficult that would actually be.”

      This is what I mean by people trying to get people to stop complaining when they have a valid reason to be unhappy.Here’s my simple solution: if you don’t like the unpopular opinion, ignore it.

      Nevertheless, it’s your choice. If you already know you’re going to be upset by what you see, yet choose to continue to watch, you are choosing to be upset. Just as you see your reason for complaining as valid, others may see telling you not to watch, however difficult it may be, as equally valid.

      Morgoth – I enjoyed your opinion piece. I happen to be one who can separate my enjoyment of the show from my enjoyment of the books. This is due, in large part, to what Peter Jackson did with LOTR. That helped me learn that characters can be eliminated and changes can be made, but I can still enjoy, even love, the adaptation, and that it takes absolutely nothing away from the books. Mind you, that’s just one person’s opinion. Speaking of opinions, I have to say that while I thought the first installment of the Hobbit was good, the second film started to upset me. I found myself almost wanting to scream at the screen that I didn’t want to see any more of Legolas and Evangeline Lilly-Elf chasing Orcs.

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    92. I personally will find it freeing when the show plot overtakes the books. There is something to be said for enjoying the story as it unfurls before you as opposed to watching with (understandably) an endless comparison to the corresponding scene in the books. Worse yet, taking your knowledge of future events in the book and having that influence your opinion of a difference occurring in something onscreen.

      The show is an amazing piece of entertainment and it will become that much more enjoyable once the book knowledge baggage is removed. Trust me.

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    93. Hodor’s Bastard,

      It’s not like these storylines didn’t converge in the books as well.

      The only difference is that, strictly in terms of uniting these characters, the end of ADWD in Meereen was a shameless tease —having them almost meet, meters away from each other, without actually interacting, for no reason at all. Remember: at the Pit, Tyrion DID intend to speak to Daenerys, and he only stopped himself because of Barristan, who in his opinion could sway the Queen against him. In the show Barristan’s not there, so the logic of the books is not betrayed (as it has been a few times in the past.)

      Anyway. Season 5 will fix that tease, making it properly climactic, so I will never complain about that change, unless they go absolutely bananas about it and do something weird. But I don’t think they will.

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    94. Luka Nieto,

      Exactly. That’s why I used the term “emphatic.” They were so close, yet GRRM gave us the ultimate tease in ADwD! And in a matter of a few minutes after they meet/re-meet, we’ll see who remains standing! Ep10 is going to leave us all dumbfounded.

      Young Dragon,

      Two words: Grey Wind. *still seething*

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    95. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I get the feeling that much controversy will arise from the climaxes of the fifth season, whether they are contained in episode ten or stretched along the last two or three episodes as in season four. I don’t expect anything to be wildly different from the source material, not more so than in previous seasons —the general framework always remains intact—, but the fact that there will be no TWOW by the time the season ends means that any little change in the climax will drive some book readers mad about what it could mean for the future.

      Until now, our foreknowledge allowed us to easily explain any change —nobody found it weird that Varys went away with Tyrion, since it was pretty easy to guess that he would share or take over Illyrio’s role. However, this time book readers don’t have the privilege of knowing the future —the mechanics of the story will be as invisible to them as they are to the Unsullied.

      Essentially, I don’t think the changes will be in any way greater than they have been in the past. It’s just that, as of now, the likely end of Season 5 marks the end of most (maybe all) of the source material, so book readers will be blind as to why certain changes were made.

      For example, I’m completely sure that nobody would have freaked out about Tyrion meeting Daenerys if “The Winds of Winter” had been released by now. Most of the same people who are now understandably up in arms about it would probably just shrug it off: “Oh, yeah, well —Tyrion meets Daenerys in X context, so it makes sense the show would want to bring this forward.”

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    96. Luka Nieto,

      In the book, not only is she left to fend for herself in the chaos, but she willingly jumps into the ring by herself and confronts the dragon alone. Then tames it. If she IS being escorted/protected by her entire entourage in the show, that would be a pretty different departure. Sort of takes away from her power, don’tcha think?

      Also seriously where the hell is Barristan Selmy? Why even introduce him in the show if you’re not gonna have him do anything important?

      People were clamoring for them to trim down all the “filler” from the book and make it simple. Well now this is starting to look too simple to me.

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    97. Young Dragon:
      Turncloak,

      People complained about the Red Wedding?

      Vehemently. Go look at the episode thread over at Westeros. It was a shitstorm of negativity and hatred because those hacks utterly and irrevocably ruined everything.

      Go figure.

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    98. Renly’s Peach,

      The Harpies will attack the Pit directly instead of just trying to poison Dany. See all the dead but not burnt people in the back of the picture? There was also a picture of armed men with Harpy masks overrunning the arena, which was by then full of dead people. So, Dany is being escorted out because of the attack. And probably Drogon will then —and only then— be attracted to the pit —in the book it was just the noise, maybe in this case it’s the attack. And then it’ll be like in the book. You have no reason to believe the show will take the power out of Dany’s actions.

      As for Barristan… okay, he’s been sort of underused, I agree —although, to be honest, his most relevant actions and dialogue are yet to come in terms of where the show is. If Season 5 has as little Barristan as it has till now, I’ll agree with you. But if they have him become as relatively relevant as he did in ADWD, I won’t complain about the slow build. Anyway, fine, he’s been underused. So what? Now you think he’s been demoted from secondary character to non-existent character? Flawless logic. If he’s not there, there’s obviously a plot-related reason for it. Or what? Do you think they just forgot to add him in the scene? Jeez.

      Part of the reason Barristan’s not at the Pit, I’m sure, is that he would recognize and denounce Tyrion immediately, as Tyrion himself feared in the book. As I said, Tyrion would have tried to approach Dany if not for Barristan, in the books. But that’s more plot-mechanics than story. Story-wise, maybe Barristan has been sent somewhere. Maybe he’s died by now. Who knows.

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    99. Luka Nieto,

      After reading ADwD (then re-reading it via Boiled Leather), I always thought GRRM didn’t have T meet D for a damn good reason (other than being a spiteful teasing fucker). Now I’m “flipping my shit” regarding how their meet is enabled in the show. This is a big deal for many. Around June 2015, the great Vesuvius will grumble to life again and there shall be repercussions!

      (Don’t cross the streams until you’re ready!)

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    100. Renly’s Peach,

      Maybe they are

      escorting Dany out of there, but the moment that picture was snapped, it looks to me like something happens which causes Dany to try and run toward someone, or something, and Jorah is trying to stop her.

      That’s just my interpretation, mind you, but that’s what I thought the first time I saw the picture, and what I continue to think now that I’ve looked at it a few more times. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’m correct.

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    101. Dolan:
      Just wanna say i agree with everything Jent said and i’m doubling his bet to 20.000 donals.

      F/M/K Lotr edition
      Fuck Galadriel
      Marry Liv Tyler
      Kill Strider

      Hahaha, yesss…Let’s kill Strider.

      jentario,

      Completely agree with you. Beautiful post.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Thanks for your comment! It makes me happy to know you enjoyed my little opinion piece. And I see your point, regarding The Hobbit. Some changes in DoS bothered me as well, tbh, such as the orcs’ attack in Bard’s house or the whole Necromancer subplot (commiting the heresy of destroying Gandalf’s staff…again!!), but all in all I really liked the film.

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    103. At the mention of “detective”, I immediately thought of Chinatown. It’s regarded as one of the best movies ever, to a substantial degree because the ending DOESN’T at all follow the expected pattern. I suppose “Memories of Murder” goes to an even greater extreme with police detectives rather than a P.I, but that’s because it’s based on a true story. Martin is famous for zagging when he’d be expected to zig, and I hope the ending is not too fantasy-cliche.

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    104. Morgoth,

      This really is good work. I am not merely saying that to make you keep coming back to thank yet someone else for their kind words. That’s just a bonus.

      Nice job.

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    105. Morgoth,

      I will let the slight go because: see below. But we shall meet again, dark lord and be warned: “I do not fear death!”

      Cumsprite,

      I know, right?! I cannot be more proud to be honest. I was reading the posts since this morning and realized that I haven’t even said to him how well written and thought out his opinion piece was! In this we agree Mr. Sprite!

        Quote  Reply

    106. Really good article, I have been reading the books since I started high school in 2004 graduated in 2008 and ASOIAF was still on hiatus. I can say that the show passing the books has been known ever since the first season but its not really a bad thing. The only fun parts about knowing the fates of certain characters was catching my girlfriends reactions to the red wedding and oberyns death on video. Next year will be season 5 of Game of Thrones, Avengers 2, and Star Wars VII, good year for us geeks. cheers.

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    107. Greenjones,

      This is the storyline I’m most intriguing about. Considering they went through all the trouble of showing us Theon’s torture, his failed rescue, and most Cailin, I thought they were ready to go all in on his ADWD arc. Want to see how they pull it off without

      fake Arya, Wyman Manderly, and Lady Dustin

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    108. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Nevertheless, it’s your choice.If you already know you’re going to be upset by what you see, yet choose to continue to watch, you are choosing to be upset.Just as you see your reason for complaining as valid, others may see telling you not to watch, however difficult it may be, as equally valid.

      You’re absolutely right, I am choosing to watch when I know there are things that will inevitably bother me, just as with just about any adaptation, because that’s the kind of person I am, and I can’t turn that off no matter how many times the point is made that “the book is the book and the show is the show”. Personally, if I have gripes that I think most people would find dumb, I take it to the nitpick thread on Westeros and don’t post about it here, because I do get that the majority don’t want to hear about it.

      The problem with just choosing not to watch is that it would then be choosing to be spoiled for major plot points just from being on the internet and entertainment websites, and thus losing all context completely (“the journey” being the important part, as many have pointed out). I don’t just go to TV/pop culture sites to read about GoT, and to stop visiting all of those sites in order to avoid plot points for *one show* is to me way sillier than letting myself sometimes be annoyed by that one show when they make choices I don’t understand. I can be an elitist asshole and still want to know what happens in a coherent manner, even if it’s not my preferred manner.

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    109. SamJam199,

      Why are knee jerk reactions any less valid than considered ones? I personally like to see how people react to things on an emotional level as well as a considered one. As long as it doesn’t become over the top (which it doesn’t in these forums as the Mods are very vigilant) then thre’s no issue.
      Again, if you don’t enjoy reading people with different opinions to you or opinions that you don’t agree with how they’re expressed then forums probably aren’t the best place for you. People are going to disagree and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Be nothing more boring than coming to a thread where everyone agrees and nothing is challanged.

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    110. ffiferoo,

      Great points and I respect them… But my answer to you is in this day and age of DVDs why not put aside the show going forward until all of the books are finished then pick it back up again? Can always binge watch it afterwards? Or is it simply too tempting or too all out there to do that?

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    111. ffiferoo,

      I can be an elitist asshole and still want to know what happens in a coherent manner, even if it’s not my preferred manner</blockquote.

      Hee, well there is an honest answer, and I do understand. Which means I won't try to argue otherwise 🙂

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    112. BrianAu:
      ffiferoo,

      Great points and I respect them… But my answer to you is in this day and age of DVDs why not put aside the show going forward until all of the books are finished then pick it back up again?Can always binge watch it afterwards?Or is it simply too tempting or too all out there to do that?

      I’m not sure which of my posts you’re replying to since I did touch on this earlier today, but it’s basically what you’re getting at- if I don’t watch, I will inevitably find out about major plot points from being on entertainment websites, and I’d rather see the show’s version first than just see out-of-context, major spoilers from going on AV Club, Grantland, etc, where I go to read about other things as well. Also I know I may not come off this way from my posts in this thread, but I do actually like the show in many ways and I try not to let my gripes about it ruin the whole thing.

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    113. I remember getting into discussions with fans two plus years ago about the show overtaking the books and the majority were in denial about it. Interesting to see so many people finally come to terms with reality now. Even two years ago you could do the math and easily figure out that the show would end first. The show was never going to be 10 seasons and GRRM was never going to start writing faster.

      I for one am happy that the show is finishing first. It is my preferred medium. A book can go into vivid detail for 100 pages about a battle scene and it can never match even 2 minutes of that same scene happening on the screen. Add in the music and great actors and there is so much more to like about the show. Books always have the advantage of internal character thoughts, but this is such a small positive compared to the benefits of movies or television.

      As of right now, there is about 950 days until GoT ends, unless they add more episodes then expected. That is a much more manageable time frame then then 7+ years we can expect from GRRM.

      GRRM’s writing speed and allowing the story get away from him was his undoing. Such a shame. The series had such a great start and then was hurt by filler books (AFFC) and long wait times between novels. GoT on HBO is doing the fans a service by giving them a credible ending within a proper time frame.

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    114. Some of the commentators here, on Westeroes, and WIC remind me of the people who wanted Venom in Spiderman 3 and convinced Rami to rewrite and showhorn it in. JUST MAKE IT WORK! DO IT ALL! MAKE IT FIT! VENOM!!!

      The fact of the matter is the set-ups have to be there for the pay-off to matter and the story to be compelling. GoT and especially ASOIF are great big old chess boards where the pawn move on page seven or season two leads to the final checkmate. The longer its strung out and the more pieces are involved – the better the end will be.

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    115. The Bastard,

      We were clinging to the hope that maybe, just maybe, the show’s progress would light a fire under GRRM’s bum and have him write faster. Looks like he’d rather burn.

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    116. BrianAu,

      The cast wouldn’t agree to that. You’d get a load of recasts. The Stark children would suddenly become the Stark middle agers. Older actors could be dead… No, I don’t think it would work 🙂 Also, if you’re waiting for GRRM to finish you may yet have to wait forever. It’s best to get it overwith.

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    117. Cami,

      Terrific stuff! You always deliver, Cami. The flame special effects are wonderful. And yes, I know those are real flames —pyrotechnics are special effects; visual effects —such as CGI— are another story.
      By the way, I’m pretty sure those are Sons of the Harpy, aren’t they? They wear the same Harpy masks we’ve seen previously, on the perpetrators of the invented terrorist attack on Daznak’s Pit. We also saw them months ago attacking an Unsullied soldier on the streets. So I guess my hypothesis was right after all, now that the scene is starting to take shape: the Sons will attack instead of just trying to poison Dany, and then Dany is about to get escorted out of the Pit, but Drogon is attracted to the Pit because of the attack (and not just the general noise of the event, as in the books), and then I imagine things go basically like they did in the source material.

      Dragonslayer,

      The Season 2, 3 & 4 Blu-Ray include short documentaries about the big “Episode 9” events in each season —The Battle of the Blackwater, the Red Wedding and the Battle of Castle Black—, so I imagine the Season 5 Blu-Ray will have something similar about Daznak’s Pit.

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    118. jentario,

      Even 2 years ago if GRRM had a “fire” lit under him it still wouldn’t have mattered. He was still too far behind. This has been obvious for years. He would of had to start writing at a faster pace during season 1 to make sure the show didn’t pass him out.

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    119. I’m really surprised by all the leaks from inside the bullring. The pictures were surprising enough, but a video, too? I’m going to try and exercise some self control and not watch the video. I love getting li’l spoilers from pictures, but videos may be too much for me.
      I don’t know how you find all this stuff, Cami, but keep it up, and thanks, yes, even though I’m going to try not to watch the video.

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    120. Btw Do you remember that casting call for a fighting pit announcer? I’m pretty sure he is the one in the top left of this photo: http://instagram.com/p/u2XLM8h6-h/

      … or at least he is an actor who was there all the days of filming. I don’t remember the actor name being announced athough I could be wrong:

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    121. Cami,

      Think I remember him being announced as someone, think it was a master but not certain. His face certainly looks familiar.

      Good to see they’re using real fire effects instead of CGI. Looks a lot tastier!

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    122. Greenjones,

      Could be.

      Some people talked in Osuna about a new character in the Pit who had long hair and a beard. I assumed they were talking about the fighting pit announcer but it could be anyone really!

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    123. Well, you’ve heard more than me, Cami, so I’ll take your word. You’re our Spain go-to source!

      If he’s not the Announcer though I wonder who Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje would be? I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

      Cami,

      Great finds again!

      Emilia and Nathalie of course look great. Iain Glen is being very gracious and kind and Dinklage is being somewhat surly (though he does smile in SOME of the pictures, so that’s an improvement, I guess). It’s cool to see David Nutter getting star treatment too.

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    124. Guys, this is supposed to be an Unsullied-safe post, so please spoiler-tag or spoiler-warn (like the photos) the bejesus out of everything.

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    125. (And Nicholas Boulton is playing the announcer in Daznak’s Pit. But that’s for another post I haven’t made yet. Sigh.)

      I would really appreciate it if people emailed these things rather than posting them in Unsullied threads.

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    126. Cami,

      Great job with these photos and videos, Cami!

      I haven’t been following some of the filming postings too carefully. Are there any photos of Ian McElhinney in Spain? If not, what does that mean?

        Quote  Reply

    127. Greenjones,

      Yeah, Actually If you go through the comments the Hotel staff even wrote about how nice

      David Nutter and Iain Glen

      were with them and all the fans. It is nice to read 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    128. Cami,

      No, actually, you didn’t tag the actor’s name up above right now. You need to tag EVERYTHING because people shouldn’t even know that that character is there at all.

      Seriously, I’m having to add tags to every comment in this post and it’s happening way too often lately. For everyone, I mean, and the Unsullied are complaining in emails. Please be generous with coding. Do not assume the non-readers don’t read posts or that they know some stuff already.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Sue the Fury:
      Guys, this is supposed to be an Unsullied-safe post, so please spoiler-tag or spoiler-warn (like the photos) the bejesus out of everything.

      I didn’t know this was supposed to be an Unsullied-safe post, and while I try to spoiler tag everything, no matter what the post, I do try very hard to be more vigilant about it on posts I know are supposed to be Unsullied.

      If it specified that somewhere and I missed it, my bad, but if not, maybe in the future, for all posts that are supposed to be Unsullied safe, maybe clearly marking them that way would prevent any potential confusion. I, for one, would be far, far more careful (like on Oz’s threads) to either not post anything spoilery, or make darned sure I use spoiler codes.

      🙂

        Quote  Reply

    130. This is a post where people can be posting spoilers in spoiler coding, so it’s not as rigid as an Oz post.

      But people should be using spoiler code. I think people understandably forget that simple things like which actors were- or were not- present can be in and of themselves spoilers but this was a little excessive.
      It’s time-consuming to add spoiler coding after the fact, and this topic wasn’t intended for this conversation at all. There are plenty of Osuna posts that can be used. We’re very loose about going off-topic here, and generally speaking, I really don’t care, but when there are spoilers uncovered all over the place, I care. So let’s just be a little more vigilant. Cover everything! There are even some book-readers who don’t want to know about major-book-change spoilers these days.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Sue the Fury,

      I really understand what you are saying, think you are right about it and as I said I’m really sorry about not properly tagging some post. But… I’m not really liking the vibe here and I’m not sure I agree or I’m comfortable about sending the findings via email… I mean… what I love about this community is having the chance to talk about the newest information when that information emerges , not days or weeks after everyone has already talked about it. The photos found on Friday have been all around the web for days and been discussed in every mayor GoT or ASoIF site… and the problem is that if you post the news in an old Osuna’s post literally nobody sees it…

      I don’t know, I’m a bit conflicted here and as I already said I really understand your possition but maybe this is not the site for me… and that’s fine! there are always places for everyone and this is a fantastic site anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Cami,

      Exactly. The comments are often the lifeblood of this site. If you’d emailed that info a lot of folks here and over at AFOIAF would’ve had less enjoyable days, I’ll tell you that! While it’s nice to have the news break in an article and I always prefer wotw to get the exclusive, with the comments you can get the news IMMEDIATELY instead of having to wait however long.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Maybe my point wasn’t clear- if someone emails us, we can make an entirely new post, with proper spoiler warnings. When stuff is just relegated deep into comments, then we (and other readers) aren’t necessarily aware of it until hours later (or days later, if real life is busy), but if we’re emailed, we can bring that info to people’s attention as soon as possible.

      But anyway, that’s just housekeeping details. The main issue here is simply using spoiler coding to avoiding affecting other people’s positive experience. If we’re all careful, it’s good. And I know people don’t forget the coding on purpose. It was just a reminder.

        Quote  Reply

    134. The set security in Spain did zero effort to makes sure extras have no cameras or cellphones on them but I am really excited after the seeing that footage.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Cami,

      I agree, at least you’re bringing news and not an opinion or poll article and like Greenjones said, we get it immediately which is a good thing for the comments section.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Sue the Fury:
      this topic wasn’t intended for this conversation at all. There are plenty of Osuna posts that can be used.

      Just some feedback from a longtime reader here. I come here to learn the great new information and details that come out from the set. I know that sometimes stuff gets out in the comments before you all have time to write an official post about it, and that works just fine and is one of the reasons I come to this site.

      But right now the posts on the homepage are for awards, halloween costumes, an essay, an arts and crafts projects, a news post on contracts, and then a press roundup. That stretches back 4 days. Where do I go to look for the filming news I care about? Certainly not going to go hunt back further for an old Osuna post.

      It feels weird to find a ton of great stuff in buried in the comments here when there’s no obvious place to look for it from the homepage. Perhaps if there were certain posts marked Latest filming news or something like that… I don’t know. But as of late I’ve found myself checking comments on this site less, and waiting for the news to trickle out on Westeros or Reddit before directing me here.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Sue the Fury,

      After all the recent spoilery threads initiated by WotW….really?

      Fuck spoiler tags!

      Ya gotta admit, this is getting fun. Only 5 more months to go til S5ep1!

        Quote  Reply

    138. The books are (at least so far) a masterpiece. The show is decent/good but far from being great. So many story and character changes that were made for the TV adaptation don’t make any sense when you think about them more deeply. I am not looking forward to the moment the show passes the books. I know, I know you will say then just don’t watch it before reading the books but unfortunately GoT has become such a mainstream media phenomenon that it is almost impossible to not get spoiled. I am by no means a show hater but I’d prefer to experience this amazing story in its original form first – the way it was intended from its creator.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Iron_Unbroken,

      After reading AFFC and ADWD I wouldn’t call this series a masterpiece. The show has the highest ratings so you saying it isn’t that good is just hipsterish. We all know you are holier than all of us plebian show watchers so please forgive us for enjoying a show that brought us all to reading the books.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I never differentiated in my posts but though I may have read all the books I would like what I see on the show to be new to me!

      I think a good rule of thumb in general is to always use the spoiler code unless the post actually contains pictures or, well, spoilers, that way an unsullied reader is less likely to get an unwelcome surprise

        Quote  Reply

    141. OtherAndrew,

      I don’t want to criticise this site too much as it is still amazing, but I do agree that quality has slipped over the past few weeks, and things that should have been full posts have never made it. It is alright having 200+ comments on an article, but I would much prefer fewer comments, alebit onew which are more closely related to the content.

      I have even found myself looking at WiC again, and although they have far too many ‘filler’ posts, they have closen the wide gap that existed between these sites back in September.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Daniel Lavender,

      By this point the picture showing (BIG SPOILER)

      Dany, Missandei, Jorah, and Daario on the ground in the pit

      has been discussed to death at other sites. But not only is there no post on it here (understandable, it came out on Friday, it’s the weekend, people are doing other things) — it’s not even clear where we should discuss it here given the lineup of posts on the front page right now.

      If there was a dedicated post every two days called “Spoiler Thread on the latest filming news” — even if there was no new specific news — this problem would be solved. People would bring the spoiler-heavy discussion there rather than searching for someplace, anyplace to talk about it and accidentally spoiling Unsullied in those other threads.

      There’s not too much filming left this year, but this is absolutely an issue that will have to be dealt with during filming next year when the spoiler frenzy over leaked set tidbits is sure to be unprecedented.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Big Bird Stark:
      Iron_Unbroken,

      After reading AFFC and ADWD I wouldn’t call this series a masterpiece. The show has the highest ratings so you saying it isn’t that good is just hipsterish. We all know you are holier than all of us plebian show watchers so please forgive us for enjoying a show that brought us all to reading the books.

      I actually do think the show is good but I also do think it is inferior to the books. I do think the books – including DwD and particularly aFfC are a masterpiece. But everyone has their own opinion and you are very welcome to disagree. However, my big problem with the show passing the books is being spoiled. So far, book readers – at least most of them – tried hard to no spoil first time watchers about upcoming story developments and plot twists so they could enjoy this wonderful story unspoiled. Unfortunately, the show has now become a public phenomenon and it is very likely, that major story developments and twists will be covered in most mainstream media as soon as they transpire in the TV show. So unlike unsullied TV viewers in the past once the show has passed the books I will most likely be spoiled of future events even if I would try to avoid sites discussing the TV show like WotW or WiC. I can’t help it but I am quite sad that I will likely not be able to experience the story unspoiled the way it was originally intended to be told from its creator first.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Iron_Unbroken,

      I personally read books because I enjoy reading and not for the sake of the plot twist, just like I watch the star wars original trilogy every year and I still feel shocked when Vader says I am your father. The tv show might spoil the major events but I’ll still buy the winds of winter when it comes out and probably finish it in a single day. AFFC and ADWD are not good in terms of payoff, the first three books were about power struggle, greed, war and the aftermath. In my opinion AFFC and ADWD would have been a lot better if the build up was for the the others to invade westeros and Dany going there, I hope thats the route the tv series is taking.

        Quote  Reply

    145. I think the main problem is not that they are making changes and omitting certain things, but it’s that they are making these sacrifices in order to shove shit that DOESN’T exist in the books down our throats; such as the ridiculous Missandei/Grey Worm romance, or Jamie and Bronn going to Dorne. Does some of the new material work? Yes, of course it does. Is all the changes and cuts justified for all the new material? Fuck no.

      It all literally boils down to two things: Money. and Contracts. They don’t have enough money to film everything, and they need to justify and/or fulfill contract obligations of the actors on the show.

      Case in point: “We can’t have Jamie just disappear for most of the season. He is one of the MAIN characters! also, in his contract we are obligated to give him X amount of screentime, so let’s just make some bullshit up, and in the process cut Stoneheart, Arianne and a bunch of other characters because now we don’t have enough time or money to include them.”

      Tell me thats not how it works.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Ser Matt the Sullen:
      Case in point: “We can’t have Jamie just disappear for most of the season. He is one of the MAIN characters!

      Well…yeah.
      I think it’s also a bit premature to call J&B in Dorne “bullshit” since none of us know exactly what it entails yet. If anything sending J&B to Dorne, as opposed to having three separate storylines, would create room for LS. She’s probably still out, but I don’t understand the logic that combining Jamie w/ Dorne somehow gives them less time to work with than if they did both Jamie in the Riverlands and a Dorne stand-alone plot.

        Quote  Reply

    147. It is obvious that the show will finish before GRRM does but why do people assume they are going to spoil the ending? Once the story gets to AFFC/ADWD material it becomes completely unfilmable(and of questionable quality), there are close to 20 different story arcs(some fans still fail to realize this considering the constant complains about changes from the books they continue to make). Because of this they are going to go off the books significantly in season 5 and future seasons. The show is going to be more inspired by the books than based on them. I don’t even think they would be able to tell the ending GRRM has in mind considering the changes and cuts they’re going to have to make in order to translate the story to TV.
      The finale season will most likely be mostly fan fiction with a completely different ending than the books. I don’t believe David and Dan would ruin the ending of the story GRRM has been working on for over 2 decades.

        Quote  Reply

    148. This article is really weak, and brings nothing new to the table. Of course, some people enjoy the ride even if they know the destination, and of course some people want to reach a conclusion.

      But you know what? Some people enjoy the ride much less if they know the destination. Some people have already been waiting more than ten years for this story to conclude and would be happy to wait much more, and are terrified that the ending is going to be spoiled to them by the show.

      Because, you know, there are different people with different tastes. And while for some people the show surpassing the books is excellent news, for others it’s an absolute nightmare.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Kate:
      This article is really weak, and brings nothing new to the table. Of course, some people enjoy the ride even if they know the destination, and of course some people want to reach a conclusion.

      But you know what? Some people enjoy the ride much less if they know the destination. Some people have already been waiting more than ten years for this story to conclude and would be happy to wait much more, and are terrified that the ending is going to be spoiled to them by the show.

      Because, you know, there are different people with different tastes. And while for some people the show surpassing the books is excellent news, for others it’s an absolute nightmare.

      I’m not offended, but a bit baffled. You say my article is weak and brings nothing new to the table, which may be true, but it generated discussion and a rebuttal from another reader, so I’d say it accomplished its purpose.
      Where’s your well-written contribution with new things to offer?

      Also, “there are different people with different tastes” -you don’t say? Stop the presses, breaking news here. And you say my opinion piece is weak.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Kate:
      This article is really weak, and brings nothing new to the table. Of course, some people enjoy the ride even if they know the destination, and of course some people want to reach a conclusion.

      But you know what? Some people enjoy the ride much less if they know the destination. Some people have already been waiting more than ten years for this story to conclude and would be happy to wait much more, and are terrified that the ending is going to be spoiled to them by the show.

      Because, you know, there are different people with different tastes. And while for some people the show surpassing the books is excellent news, for others it’s an absolute nightmare.

      I found this article really interesting and well written.

      And you know what? Those “some people” who would be happy to wait much more than other 10 years for the story to conclude (how many out there?) should have to deal with the fact that the show is going to let us know this conclusion.

      I think there are people fed up waiting for the books to come up, and there are even more people who certainly are not happy waiting 10 years to know how this story will end.

      Anyway, the article is far from weak, in my opinion, it’s not a bunch of obvious blahblah, unlike certain comments.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Hodor’s Bastard:
      What blasphemy and heresy is this? Someone needs to be burned at the stake tonight! Mel shall do the honors.

      Hodor!

      While most of of my family agrees that fire is cleansing to the spirit, I must
      disagree with your idea. Burning heretics at the stake rarely brings on positive
      Influences ( bad for moral , too ).

      A well written perspective by Morgoth ! On the other hand, whose to say that GOT
      writers simply choose to own the show and narrative for themselves. There’s been enough deviation to prove thus far, this an interpretative work. The outcome will depend on the mixed viewers from all sides. If the press critics continue to praise the
      show, along with healthy Metacritic scores, the vast majority will benefit. I really doubt
      George Martin will take offense of quality programming , or the considerable notoriety
      he’s gained by those unfamiliar with his work until now.

      I’ve come to accept and respect the merits of both book and screen versions. However the show continues to evolve . My hope is for improved acting and continuity among previous scenes. With strong cast members added for next season, Kit Harrington’s
      performance won’t distract me as it had before. .. If it does, there’s another scene coming up.

        Quote  Reply

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