HBO recently released the PDF of the final script for the season seven finale, “The Dragon and the Wolf”, as the episode was nominated for its writing at the 2018 Emmys. Interestingly, the description of Tormund and Beric’s escape from the Wall more or less confirms that, yes, those two did indeed survive the Night King’s attack.
The action for that scene reads as follows:
Specifying that Beric and Tormund “run for their lives” makes it pretty clear that we’re supposed to assume that those two survive, which I’m sure is a relief for some viewers.
While many assumed that Beric and Tormund wouldn’t be relegated to off-screen deaths, controversial decisions in the past, such as the abrupt cut away (pun not intended) from Brienne’s execution of Stannis and Brynden “Blackfish” Tully’s out-of-sight, Samurai-style demise were enough to make many worry that we’d seen the last of Beric and Tormund. But from the wording in the script, it seems safe to safe that they did, indeed, escape the destruction of the Wall and will live to see another season.
Even if the fate of Beric and Tormund never struck you as particularly ambiguous, there’s quite a lot of fun to be had from reading the episode’s script. The narration is concise but dryly witty.
For example, here’s how Jorah Mormont’s reaction to Daenerys’ decision to travel by boat with Jon Snow is described:
The script is peppered with little descriptions that bring the story to life all on its own and it’s a testament to the show’s cast that these character details are so affectively present in the final product of the episode.
When Brienne says “fuck loyalty” to Jaime in the Dragon Pit, for example, the description doesn’t merely inform us that Jaime stops and turns to her. It reads:
This extra detail gives the action so much more weight and character than it might have had otherwise (though I don’t doubt that Nikolaj would have known exactly how to react to that line regardless).
We’re also given some insight into the beach brawl between Theon and Harrag. Turns out, the headbutt that Theon gives Harrag is “the single greatest headbutt in the history of filmed headbutts.” So, if you had ever questioned how that move alone was enough for Theon to turn the tide of the fight … well, there you go.
Lyanna and Rhaegar’s wedding is also given a beautiful description, most notably this poignant line:
You can read the entire script for yourself at Emmys.com. It’s well worth your time.
What scene from Game of Thrones would you love to read in script form? Tell us below.
The Lightning Lord! ⚡️
I wonder what they meant in the Tyrion/Cersei discussion when Tyrion says “No not that but you must have hoped for something”, and then the subtext says ‘He is more right than he knows’.
Now we have a firm grasp of the obvious 🙂
Fun read! I always enjoy getting a chance to read the scripts.
Reading the scripts is always a joy. You can tell that D&D like to have fun with them and put in little jests that help the actors delve into the context of the scene. Perhaps that’s why the cast is so consistently engaging.
Love reading the scripts – it would be great if HBO could release a full collection of all 73 after season eight ends.
I hope they will release a promo of season 8 so soon!!
about The Hound checking if the zombie in the box is ok: “satisfied that their precious cargo is undead and well, The Hound walks away.”
as if “undead and well” wasn’t good enough, the cargo is really “their precious”. i cannot wait to read the remaining 58 pages of the script.
Has there been a show that’s done that before? I’m pretty sure I’d buy a hardcover book form containing the series scripts. That’d be neat – maybe add in some notes from D&D, directors and cast. Sort of like a written episode commentary thing.
Jon “little shitburger” Snow 😂 what a hilarious description. And the last one, of course, is so tragic. I still think they were probably so hopeful because they placed their trust in the wrong person and SOMEBODY was supposed to send word to their respective families and did not – similar to Rome &Juliet. Ugh, I’m also hoping we get some teaser or “Long Walk” type promo soon.
Dark Sister,
Yup, and my guess is still Varys and it will come back to haunt him.🤔
Did anyone noticed that the script reffers to Viseryon as an “ice dragon”?
what a fun read that was! i’m through, and i’m left with questions. especially about some details of the Dragon Pit scripting.
first, Brienne and Pod being accompanied by Lannister guards makes them “guests of the nation”? is this a friendlier expression for prisoner or hostage? and second, when Bronn takes Pod away for a drink, this “is not a request”? what then? an order?
i’ve been pretty naive not to think about the status of Brienne and Pod in KL, as it seems. for S8, i there must be a BBP escape plan! i couldn’t stand seeing Brienne and Pod being hold captive but on the other hand, this would probably lure Jamie and/or Tyrion into some rescue stunts that could give Cersei a big time smile… i expect the worst to come.
third thing mentioned in the script i did not notice when watching irritates me much more: when Tyrion comes back into the pit from the talk with his lovely sister, Varys also returns.
dafuq, where has he been? having a nostalgia walk? “how are the little birds doing, mister Qyburn?” or something like that?
I think this proves that a the way a scene is directed and shot means everything. Different directors will each have different interpretations of how a scene should look – and how it should be edited. Thankfully Season 8 is chock full of our favorite directors!
As for a trailer, we usually get a poster first. If we are getting a Spring release, then we hopefully will get a poster any week now.
Wouldn’t that be nice! Some explanation for the (in)actions of Rhaegar and Lyanna other than “he was a selfish philandering perv and she was a bubbleheaded teenage groupie.”
Wow… just got to the end of the script. Maybe the most intriguing and important detail I’ve come across:
“Emerging from the frozen coastal forest, the ARMY OF THE DEAD comes in force. All of them, 100,000 strong, with hundreds of WHITE WALKER officer corps on their dead horses”
Hundreds of White Walker officer corps on their dead horses… looks like they actually will be showing all 99 of Craster’s sons-turned-White-Walkers, and not just the 12 or so that they have been showing.
This will make season 8 much more epic, if they do go this route.
Yes… where was he?
I believe Brienne and Pod were simply being escorted and kept in sight until the meeting since they are members on the enemy side. As Bronn told the others when they walked up, “Your friends arrived before you did. I’ve been sent to escort you all to the meeting.” They weren’t prisoners and it can be assumed they departed with everyone else. Bronn taking Pod for a drink was simply their way of getting Jerome out of the scene with Lena. 😉
It’s hard to say what was in mind with the Varys bit. Perhaps it was mislabeled and was suppose to be Qyburn. Maybe it was something scrapped during filming. In either case Varys was there in the background with everyone when Jon and Daenerys were talking and still there when Cersei returned.
I agree. Hopefully they do show more than the eight or nine that would be left (of the number they’ve shown). They’d been taking babies from Craster for years and who knows if they’d gotten others elsewhere during and before. It would be far more frightening to see several score of WW than about ten.
I hate to be a buzz-kill, but since when does “run for their lives” imply survival? They could still run for their lives, but fail to get away in time. Just because they attempted, does not mean they succeeded.
Don’t get me wrong, I NEED them both to be alive, but I don’t think we can assume that they are just based on that one phrase alone.
Very confused about what Viserion is. Viserion died, and was then brought back. This should make Viserion a wight.
But the script says “He’s done the same thing to Viserion that he did to Craster’s sons”.
As we saw in Episode 4.04, the Night King didn’t kill the baby, but merely transformed him into a White Walker. So what is Viserion ? A wight dragon (dead but reanimated) or a white walker dragon ?
The script describes him as an “ice dragon”, but that’s yet another thing.
I will say that Viserion’s eye at the end of 7.06 definitely looked like a white walker eye, not a wight eye. The shade of blue that it was and the fact that the whole eye became blue is characteristic of the white walkers’ eyes. Wights only have blue irises, and it’s a much lighter blue.
The question becomes, if the Night King can turn corpses into White Walkers, what’s the point in using the wights at all ? They are inferior in every way.
It just seems like the writers aren’t really clear on the White Walker “lore”. They’ve muddied the waters to no end, especially when they decided to give dragonglass and Valyrian steel the ability to kill Wights too.
I know they said they only changed it for dragonglass, but if you watch 7.06, you’ll see Jon cutting down lots of wights with just one slash of his sword, after which they completely stop moving.
So either Valyrian steel now kills wights too (even though it didn’t at Hardhome), or it’s just massive sloppiness when filming Episode 7.06.
Either way, this is all very confusing.
Damm. That is a good catch
I wasn’t one that has really thought they died. Sure, there was some small doubt, but at this stage of the game with so few main characters left and considering how big of a presence they had in the season, I’m pretty sure they’d have made it clear if they died. Not clearly showing them LIVE is something they would do though.
All the confirmation I needed we already got during filming when Kristofer was seen in Belfast with other cast members.
Clob,
Well, one or both may have been wightened. I sure hope not, though I’m bracing myself for at least a few of our favorite characters turning into zombies.
Nick20,
I agree with your comments and question the same. They also made Viserion appear to be in a bit of a decayed state. One thing it shouldn’t be is a true Ice Dragon since that was a species, but so many are calling it that… so whatever.
I’m going to stay with my opinion or guess that they’ll (super fast speed luge) run along the Wall to Castle Black to warm them and get ravens out that the NK has broken through. I’d say it could be the opening scene of the season.
“Our” favorite directors wtf? Ugh assumptions
That would be a great cold opening, IMO.
I wonder if they’ll run to Castle Black or to Winterfell. I can’t wait to see to see Edd’s reaction when he finds out the wall has fallen.
Clob,
It would kind of suck if after all of Beric’s introspection in S7e1 and conversations with Jon in S7e6 about the Lord of Light bringing him back six times because for some reason he wants him alive, that Beric could die … by being buried alive under a pile of ice boulders.
On the other hand, in the books
Any thoughts?
As for Tormund, he’s kind of the “representative” of the Free Folk. Without him, there’s no emotional connection to the Wildlings. So I can see why he would have to make it out alive.
All that reading that script highlights to me is how little it appears to contribute to the finished product in terms of characterisation and detail.
This reads like what you’d end up with if you asked a member of the audience to summarise the episode as they were watching it.
I’d love to read a written description of what Jon’s face was supposed to look like when Dany hugged Jorah at the clifftop. Lol.
Aside from an off-chance that season 8 would cold-open with a wighted Tormund, I never had much doubt that him or Beric would survive the wall collapse. Beric himself has to serve some sort of purpose given that he’s still around contrary to his book counterpart.
Ten Bears,
Totally agree about Tormund. As for Beric’s purpose, I honestly have no idea.. There is some popular theories about him giving the Last Kiss to resurrect Jon again, but I hope not. We’ve already gone through that with Jon so it would be super redundant and take the punch right out of such a major death. Sandor is another possibility that’s been tossed around, but I have trouble seeing this, so.. Yeah, I got nothing.
Enharmony1625,
After the somewhat hurried Jon>Dany “I don’t know you” in S7e3 to bostsex just four episodes later, I’m in no mood to watch Beric kissing Jon in S8. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…
Enharmony1625,
Hmmm. I could see Beric giving his “last” life to resurrect Sandor. After all, both Beric and Ray told Sandor the Lord of Light or the gods have plans for Sandor Clegane. He was left for dead once before and the god or gods (not “hate”) kept him alive.
And after all, he is the Lord’s Chosen – the “Warrior of Light” prophesied by Melisandre.😄
*removes tinfoil hat*
Alba Stark,
Yes!!!! I would love that too!!
Ten Bears,
That’s definitely a good point. To me it just feels like on GoT, resurrections have to have a real weight behind them — full of meaning and purpose. This isn’t some normal TV show or comic book movie where resurrections happen willy-nilly. Perhaps there is such a purpose with Sandor Ahai or someone else, but if not, I would prefer no resurrections next season.
Nick20,
> But the script says “He’s done the same thing to Viserion that he did to Craster’s sons”
It could mean the more literal “NK puts the hand on the forehead of the dragon and the eyes turn blue” instead of “NK raises his arms and the dragon starts to flap his wings”.
Perhaps there are two ways to raise a wight, but only one to raise a WW. Also, the NK was turned with the dragonglass, which wasn’t done for Craster’s sons, though for Benjen, who didn’t WWify, so I wouldn’t look for too much meaning behind it. Probably a dragon wight is by “heritance” automatically as fireproof as a WW, so there is not much difference 😉
Something that the script made me think about but didn’t answer is: did Harrag survive that fight with Theon?
It kind of looked like he died but I’m not sure.
Also this script seems to confirm that Viserion is a white walker and not a wight.
James Hibberd teased last summer that Beric and Tormund survived episode but may not survive episode 1 of S8. I’d guess they will be running for their lives again all the way to Winterfell.
i read it again, and i think you are right about why Brienne and Pod had guards on them. being a captive, Pod would not have been allowed to have a four eyes meeting with Tyrion for a second. “guests of the nation” just irritated me a lot as Cersei is not really known for warm hospitality…
and yes, it is clear that the script needed to write Jerome out of the arena to make room for Lena. still, Bronn’s invitation is commented like this:
However friendly Bronn’s tone, this is not a request.
here’s a better explanation at hand than in my first attempt, too. Bronn would have urged Pod out of the place of potential mayhem at any price because he likes him.
so thanks for pushing me to these sights. they give me more peace.
about Varys, i think i have to rewatch the scene. something in the back of my mind says “he never left the arena”, so a script typo may be the solution indeed.
I distinctly remember Jon one-shotting wights with his sword in Hardhome…
if they run to Castle Black it will be for one purpose only: to tell everyone they’re fired because the NK has just outsourced their jobs to the south.
actually, their options are somewhere at zero. running to CB takes too long and is useless. running to WF takes long too, but would make sense, if they make it there. still, a raven would make it somewhat faster, and there’s been a raven from WF watching the collapse of the wall. so i think news will get there pretty soon.
still, i see the possibility of an opening that would refer to S1E1’s opening by repeating it’s horror. just, multiplied by 1000 or so.
a dangerous climbing down the debris of the wall after the last undead is out of sight, and a march to WF in a safe distance behind the AotD which will confront Beric and Tormund with all the horror the undead leave behind. includes the chance of being trapped on their way… (and then, the opening theme comes in for a last season start.)
Ten Bears,
It’s probably a pretty good bet that Beric will be resurrecting somebody in S8 with “The Last Kiss,” or at least die saving someone very important. I agree that at this point Jon is a little redundant… especially because Mel (if alive) could just try to resurrect him again (or any other Red Priests she brings along with her).
My best guess would honestly be Dany… or Bran. I feel like him being resurrected SIX times means that he is crazy important, and will have to save one of the main players in defeating the Night King. Which, in my opinion, would be Jon, Dany and Bran.
If they are alive, which I am going to assume, I just have to believe the choice the show will choose is having them go to Castle Black along the top of the Wall. It would be the typical unrealistic fast travel of course with just the arrival seen. It may seem pointless to rush to warn people but they don’t know Bran can see what happened.
I’d say Tormund and Beric would take one look off the edge, see that Eastwatch is completely buried and realize nobody could have survived. With the stairs gone and not having any gear it would be impossible to climb down. Since both of them just recently barely escaped being surrounded by wights I don’t suspect they would be in any hurry to drop back into that anyway. If it were the books I’d say they’d go to the next castle, Greenguard, and get down there. The show is going to want to go to the familiar though and bring Edd back in. My guess is T, B and Edd, along with the remaining NW then ride for Winterfell (and beat the slow moving AotD), unless for some inexplicable reason the NK goes out of his way to attack CB directly and they’re all killed after sending ravens. It’s so far out of the way and does little for the NK that going to CB doesn’t make sense, but the show can do whatever pretty easily without reason or explanation.
Enharmony1625,
I admit I’m blinded by “confirmation bias” because I just love the Hound, and I’ve been excoriated (playfully) for suggesting that Sandor Clegane is a prime candidate for the show! Warrior of Light prophecy recited by Melisandre in S2e1 (worded slightly differently from the books! Azor Ahai prophecy).
Yet, from Brother Ray’s account in S6e7 of finding Sandor and loading him into his cart for burial, it really sounded like Sandor was clinically “dead” and even starting to decompose – when he coughed and “came back to life.” Although it wasn’t as sexy as Jon Snow’s on-screen body-washing and resurrection ceremony, Sandor’s mortal wounding and subsequent literal and figurative “re-birth” fit the books! definition of dying and being reborn.*
He has already expressed regret for his prior sins. Ray assured him the gods have already punished him for the things he’d done. Both Beric and Ray told him it’s “not too late” to help more than he’s harmed – and the misanthropic ex-Hound joined up with the Brotherhood to help save humankind, and since then Sandor has tried to atone for his past life. (That, in my mind, was the purpose of his scene in S7e1, when he expressed guilt and remorse for the deaths of Rabbit Stew Sally and her father, which he directly or indirectly caused by robbing them in S4.)
So I would maintain the Hound has already “died” and been resurrected as Sandor Clegane. I’m going to go back and find Melisandre’s recital of the “Warrior of Light” prophecy, which she mistakenly believed referred to Stannis because of her own confirmation bias.
Sandor and Jon Snow are the only viable candidates left who’d qualify.**
* I haven’t read the books, though I’m familiar with the passage in which Septon Meribald or the Elder Brother – I forget which – described his own prior life as a soldier and falling in battle and then being washed ashore, regaining consciousness and then finding purpose in devoting himself to the greater good – as “dying” and being reborn. Or something like that.
** I figure Jon Snow has got to be “The Prince Who Was Promised.” For everything else, including the Valonqar, Azor Ahai = Warrior of Light, and Last Hero, I still look for ways to shoehorn Sandor into the prophecied job descriptions. 🙂 (I found the “salt” at the end of S4e10; the “smoke” was a little more tenuous…)
Enharmony1625,
FYI: Here’s the show! “Warrior of Light” prophecy. Astute book readers might find clues in the changes made from the books! version. (I think we can extract clues from the adaptation process. For example, I’ve assumed that books! characters and subplots excised completely from the show are irrelevant to the end game or were red herrings, eg “fAegon”, etc.)
Anyway, here’s Melisandre’s recital of the “Warrior of Light” prophecy in S2e1 at the Dragonstone bonfire. For clarity, I deleted the background dialogue of Davos and Maester Cressen.
Melisandre: “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North. In the ancient books, it is written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer.”
“Stannis Baratheon, Warrior of Light, your sword awaits you. Lord, cast your light upon us! For the night is dark and full of terrors.”
————
If the prophecy is fulfilled, there will have to be a “warrior” to draw a burning sword from a fire. I guess Jon already did that when he pulled Longclaw from the fire when he saved Jeor way back when, so he’s already checked off that box.
Ten Bears,
Clob, et al
I agree that the question about Beric’s purpose in the show is important. I’ve got little intuition about who might be the prophetic hero to take out the Night King, although if I had to make a bet it would be either Jon or Bran. BUT I do wonder about Jojen’s explanation to Bran and Meera in S4e5 that “they’ll know” when the end arrives, as he stares in fascination at his own right hand, temporarily engulfed in apparent flames. I’ve read interpretations that this vision signals that Jaime Lannister will be the one to take out the Night King. Does that seem plausible to you guys?
Gwidhiel,
To add to this, I remember reading that in the dragonglass cave one of the paintings from the Children of the Forest depicted three humans, along with some Children. Coincidentally, one of these humans was carrying his sword in his left hand. I remember this also sparked some speculation that Jamie might be the one to end the Night King.
Personally, I don’t think that is his role to fill, but it could happen. The fact that there were three men in the drawing, and one of them was left-handed, could mean something. Maybe Jamie, along with two others (Jon and Brienne?), will come together in the very final showdown with the Night King to defeat him together (thus Jamie dying in Brienne’s arms, and Jon finally destroying the Night King).
Interesting – I’d read and then forgotten about the left-handed sword-bearer in the cave picture. And Jon, Brienne, and Jaime all have Valyrian steel swords, so a joint effort to take out the NK and his lieutenants would make sense.
it would not be completely impossible to get off the wall. i just rewatched the destruction scene, and it seems the breach has some steps. quite big steps, but there might be smaller parts of debris spread over them, and if there’s just a bit of non-ice material left on the top of the remaining wall, who know’s what an experienced climber like Tormund can make of that.
talking of Tormund’s alpine experience: maybe he has some knowledge of the unmanned fortresses of the wall as well. he’s been to the south more often than an average german tourist, so he might know about some stairs in the neighbourhood of Eastwatch he once used for a comfortable way down after a risky climb on the north side of the wall. that could save the guys some, i don’t even remember, how many miles without food or shelter?
if now, if the old gods and the new gods of scripting really need to send them to CB, i hope they take the chance to bring Edd back into the game by raven-mail from WF. something like “Eastwatch has just been levelled. two survivors are on their way to CB. how about some of you jobless guys head their way with some food and blankets?”
no matter which direction Tormund and Beric are heading, bringing CB back into the game is Bran’s task now. he’s seen all the shit happening, and he’s the only one who can coordinate the logistic efforts it needs for Edd’s comeback.
Jaehaerys,
I remember mentioning in a previous article about the theory that the left-handed person in the cave could represent Jaime. I never got a single damn reply!
Sorry, just a bit salty about that, but I think ill get over it 🙂
ASNAWP!!!
🙂
At least Tormund appears to be alive for now. I hope that being the last main wildling character standing gives him enough plot armor to make it through to help rebuild Westeros when the War for the Living is over.
Does anyone else think that a WotW dead pool is in order so we can all make our predictions in writing?
Or is there one and I’ve missed it?
Gwidhiel,
It would especially make sense taking into account book!Jamie’s weirwood dream. He is the only one who has ever dreamed of anything like this besides… Dany (I think?), Jon and Bran. So it must be really significant. I don’t think it is just supposed to represent him fighting in the War for the Dawn, but that he has a very important role to play. And this is how he will eventually fall, playing a very important part in them winning the war, while fighting alongside (at least) Brienne, and probably dying to protect Bran when he is in mortal danger from the Night King. At least that is my pet theory.
Mr Derp,
Sorry No One replied to your post! Always a bummer when you think you wrote something very intriguing and nobody hops on the bandwagon to discuss. At least I remembered it was mentioned 🙂
Oh this sounds very plausible to me! I hadn’t before considered Jaime fighting to protect Bran but now that you’ve shared it, I’m filing it away in my head canon. It makes such good sense for both of their narratives, particularly Jaime’s redemption and self-sacrifice arc (that I am convinced is a thing).
Boo. That’s always dispiriting when the conversation wanders and people miss a good post.
Jaehaerys,
Mega-Tinfoil Interlude: I think Jon completely misinterpreted the cave drawings. He saw what he wanted to see: CotF and First Men fighting together against their “common enemy,”
One of the yet-to-be fired hung guns of the show is how “history” inverts heroes and villains.
Of course! The left-handed fighter has to be the Warrior Princess!
I figure the only way Jaime gets in on WW action is if someone retrofits his golden hand with a Valyrian Steel prosthesis. Sort of like Wolverine. Left-handed, he’s just a middling swordfighter.
I recall Jaime’s weirwood dream, but not Daenerys’s. I agree that this is another point in favor of this theory about Jaime.
Very interesting. My own “tinfoil” about prophecies is that the show has pared down the prophecies and legends from the books (e.g. I frequently see people speculate about who will be Nissa Nissa, but I don’t think that concept was ever mentioned in the show, was it?), and that prophecies & legends that the show does include are likely to be significant, whereas I suspect some of the books’ will end up going nowhere. My tinfoil doesn’t preclude yours of course – it’s unlikely that the prophecies will work out exactly the way the characters think.
LadyGoodman,
“Does anyone else think that a WotW dead pool is in order so we can all make our predictions in writing?”
There have been some broad suggestions here and there. How do you propose it would work? By order in which they perish, or odds that character(s) don’t survive S8?
I’d like to see a Wow “Wight Pool”: Predicting who gets zombified. I for one would like to see treasonweasel Lord Glover get turned into an ice zombie in the first five minutes of S8.
I’d also like to see ZombieKarsi get turned back into a human, though that’s just wishful thinking.
Ten Bears,
Do we actually know how Brienne executed Stannis? Was it beheading? Because I suspect his body was just left to rot in the woods, just waiting to be recruited.
Thank goodness Sansa fed Ramsay to his dogs, because that motherf*er would have probably enjoyed being a wight.
I very much hope we won’t see wightified Hodor, but …
Gwidhiel,
I scribbled out an outline of my Double-Layered Ultra-Tinfoil Unifying Theory – based solely on “show canon” (except for Maggy the Frog’s books! prophecies, eg Valonqar, since she’s been 100% correct or close to it so far) . If I can ever find the time, I’m going to try to type it out. In its present form it’s ridiculously convoluted and laced with forked rabbit holes and detours.
I just figure that with 67 out of 73 episodes aired (roughly 92%), all of the clues and set-ups have already been embedded in the story. Ol’ Hsnging Gun Wimsey got me thinking about effective narrative techniques, eg “Chekhov’s Gun” (i.e., if a gun is hung on the wall in Act I, it’s got to be fired by the end of Act III or else it’s superfluous and should be discarded.) Then I flashed back to something I’d read in Stephen King’s book “On Writing”, in which he states the “reverse” of “Checkhov’s Gun”: If something is going to play a role at the end, it has to be introduced early on – or else it will come off as deus ex machina. (I think there’s a third corollary which – for want of a better term – I refer to as “Chekhov’s Conspicuously Empty Gunrack”…)
Anyway, I’m trusting that the showrunners have sprinkled clues and foreshadowings throughout the first 67 episodes so that the conclusion is satisfying and logical – and not just “because magic” or to pull the rug out from the viewer with cheap twists nobody could see coming. I’m also trusting that what may have looked like “throwaway” scenes of extraneous dialogue were included for a reason, just like books! characters and storylines excised from the show meant that they were inconsequential or red herrings.
(Where was I going with this??? Sorry for rambling. To be continued. Or maybe it’s better if it’s not.🤢)
Somewhat off-topic, but Daenerys is sending the Dothraki north via the Kingsroad, while the Unsullied sail with her & the dragons. Even if the Dothraki are well-behaved (but would they be?), they’re going to stir up a lot of fear in the regions they pass through. I imagine Cersei will take advantage of that.
Gwidhiel,
Hmm. Have we seen any headless wights? I assume Brienne lopped off daughterburner’s head. I remember Beric telling Arya that headless Ned couldn’t be resurrected; not sure that principle applies to zombies.
I really don’t mind “magic” as an element of fantasy stories. I consider magic to be the science of the fictional world, and I’ll go along with it so long as it has established rules and limitations.
Maybe a corpse has to have a head to be wightened? I’d have to go back and see if any AotD soldiers are headless. I don’t remember…
(I suppose if we see a skull on the ground gritting its skeletal teeth in S8, we’ll know whether Stannis was eligible for wightening.)
Gwidhiel,
That reminds me: In Dany’s pep rally speech to the Dothraki to convince them to cross the sea (I forget which episode…it was the last few minutes when theyre traveling through a valley; she rides ahead and then comes back astride Drogon and delivers a cheerleading speech in Dothraki), she tells them they can knock down the “stone huts” of her enemies and deliver on Khal Drogo’s promise to her.
So I’m not sure the Dothraki are expecting to serve as peacekeepers. If they behave according to their reputation, I very much doubt people are going to welcome their arrival.
And yes, common people watching hordes of Dothraki screamers tearing through their country is going to play right into Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter/Foreign Invaders” narrative.
Not to go too far off-off-topic, but I suspect this will be one of the reasons* why I think there will be an insurrection in progress when Dany & Jon arrive in WF.
* The limiter food supply will be the pretext for disgruntled Northerners to attack WF and raid the pantry. Dany recognized in S7 that the intended food source for her army, the Reach, is gone along with House Tyrell, and for whatever reason she decided to go full-Dracarys on the food wagon train in S7e4.
If you’re a Northerner who’s just contributed grain to WF’s stores to last you through the long winter, what are you going to think when you learn thousands of hungry foreign soldiers and their horses are heading to WF?
Yeah I honestly don’t understand why Jon didn’t just ask Dany to send her dragons and maybe some elite fighters to fight the AotD, along with the dragonglass. In addition to drawing upon the North’s meager food resources, the Dothraki and especially the Unsullied will need winter-appropriate attire if they’re going to survive the climate. The Dothraki won’t be able to deploy their typical cavalry tactics in several feet of snow, so will they really be an asset? I mean, yes, every single living body in the north needs to be ready to fight the AotD, but every living person who falls to the AotD joins them. So I’m not sure I see the sense in sending a bunch of fighters north whose fighting equipment and experience place them at a big disadvantage and make it likely that they’ll just feed the ranks of the enemy.
Also: I expect the Unsullied to face anything in their path. But have the superstitious Dothraki been briefed about what they’re going to fight?
Gwidhiel,
If I’m a Dothraki. I’m gonna think: “Wait a second. The Khaleesi gave a great campaign speech and said we were going to knock down stone huts and kill people, but THIS is not what I signed up for. Cavalry charges against part-time soldiers? Fine and dandy. Freezing my ass off against ice zombies? No thanks. I’m outta here.”
On the other hand, perhaps they’ll welcome the challenge. Problem is, if there’s no grain for their horses or for them, blind loyalty to their Khaleesi won’t matter.
I know food shortages aren’t “sexy.” However, the show has been mentioning this problem too often – especially in S7 – for it to be ignored. Or maybe the Dothraki and Unsullied will be nearly wiped out early on (like the Dornish, Greyjoy and Tyrell allies in S7) and it won’t matter.
Pet tinfoil theory remains: Lord Treasonweasel Glover will lead a revolt and raid WF’s grain stores before the Dothraki and Unsullied even arrive.
Gwidhiel,
“Yeah I honestly don’t understand why Jon didn’t just ask Dany to send her dragons and maybe some elite fighters to fight the AotD, along with the dragonglass…”
_________
I have a long-winded multi-part question about the whole strategy to begin with, which I tentatively titled: “Why Panic?”
The gist of it is. I can’t figure out why Jon didn’t just order a detachment of a few thousand soldiers with dragonglass-tipped arrows and flammable oil to man the Wall at Eastwatch.
My long-winded question kind of veered off track with references to Monty Python and The Holy Grail….
My apologies in advance if I do post it – particularly to anyone who hasn’t seen the movie.
death by chickenfire,
“….and there’s been a raven from WF watching the collapse of the wall. so i think news will get there pretty soon.”
——-
Ahh, that’s right! Bran’s been getting drone footage in real time, so he’ll know right away that NK’s got himself a dragon, the Wall has been breached, and the AotD has gotten through.
But if RoboBran doesn’t mention it to anyone because nobody asks….🤖
Ten Bears,
I definitely agree that there’s been quite a bit of setup for something important to come from Sandor, so you may be on to something here. I’m not sure I see him as AA or the Warrior of Light necessarily, but I think it’s at least plausible, particularly given your arguments.
My point on the resurrection side of things though, is that I don’t want it to feel cheap. I don’t want it to feel like a get-out-of-jail-free card. If there is to be a resurrection next season, it has to serve a real purpose in that characters’ arc.
e.g. Jon dies fighting the NK, but is brought back so he can rule. Why? What’s the significance of that besides just putting us through the grief of seeing him die again? Just don’t have him get killed by the NK.
e.g. Sandor dies but is needed in the fight against the WW/AotD. Again, why? What’s the significance of having him resurrected, and what does that add to his story? Just don’t have him die in the first place. I, personally, don’t care for that kind of flip-flop storytelling unless there’s a point to it.
And just to be clear, there most certainly is a point to Beric and Jon’s resurrections. Beric is the proxy for Jon, and Jon’s initial death & resurrection was full of purpose.
I’m definitely keeping an open mind on the matter, and I hope that D&D will handle any possible resurrection properly and with meaning!
Gwidhiel,
I can’t remember who said it, but they made good arguments for the clear candidate to be Jon. There’s just so much set up for it. Although I hope it involves more than just Jon v. NK. I really hope Bran would be involved somehow, and I think it’s pretty clear that he will be given all the foreshadowing by the CotF, Jojen, Bloodraven..
Of course, I’m holding out some hope that ASNAWP will be involved somehow too. 🙂 The whole shardectomy theory is pretty interesting, with ASNAWP guarding Sam with the help of Bran.
I’m not sure I see Jamie as a viable candidate though. His story is so wrapped up in Cersei that I don’t see him suddenly being the Night King-slayer. Especially since his fighting ability is rather compromised, and I would hope that the NK will be a beast of a fighter. Of course, if Bran is there to help in some way, I suppose that would help, but.. I’m still banking on Jon as the most likely one to take him down with the help of Bran.
Right? And if they were given explicit orders to take nothing and harm no one who hasn’t attacked first while on the road to Winterfell they are going to be disgruntled when they arrive.
I think Dany & the Unsullied will already be at Winterfell when the Dothraki arrive – it’s a thousand mile ride on unfamiliar winter roads.
I agree re the food shortage. I suspect, alas, that most of the Dothraki and Unsullied aren’t going to survive. The only one of those two groups that we know by name at this point is Grey Worm. Did any Dothraki in S7 even have a speaking role?
Yup. It wouldn’t have helped against ZombieViserion, but they couldn’t have anticipated that.
I suspect the real answer is the writers’ need for suspense and spectacular battles with high body counts.
Enharmony1625,
FWIW, I doubt Sandor is going to be resurrected. I believe he is fated to go out in a literal and figurative blaze of glory – likely braving an inferno to save the Wolf Girl or the Little Bird.
At the end of S4e10, he was ready to die: “F*ck it. I’m ready.” He’s been told twice, by two holy men, that it’s not too late to start helping people (Ray) and “You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane; it’s not too late for you.” (Beric)
He’s already been given a “second life” to make up for the sins of his first one. The good news is that he’s still the same irascible, foul-mouthed Sandor we came to know and love. 🙂
I don’t disagree with any of this, but I don’t think it precludes a role for Jaime, either.
But he has finally broken with Cersei, and his reason for doing it – the thing that finally proved to be the final straw after she has done so many terrible things – is to fight for the living against the dead.
I could overlook the cave drawing because their inclusion served another purpose in the story. But Jojen’s burning right hand was squeezed into an already action-packed and suspense-laden scene, so I can’t help but feel that it was significant. Perhaps it wasn’t signaling Jaime in the Great War, but I can’t think of anyone who fits better. I’m quite keen on this idea, so of course all the typical caveats attach about possibly being wrong but I’m going to hold onto the thought that Jaime’s fate is to play a part in the defeat of the Night King. 🙂
If, as the S7e7 script indicates, there are scores of White Walkers, not just a couple dozen, then they are going to need every fighter capable of wielding weapons made of Valyrian steel or dragon glass, because dragonfire won’t do the trick. I could totally see Jon, Brienne, and Jaime fighting back to back. Who will wield Heartsbane? I don’t think it’ll be Sam. Would he give it to Jorah, perhaps? Or Sandor?
Enharmony1625,
(Tinfoil Alert ⚠️)
Maybe there won’t be a “Night King Slayer.” The Night King is a victim, not a villain.
Delurking to air my reservations about Jon being resurrected again. He ordered Melasandre not to bring him back if it ever happens again. He didn’t order Beric tho. But that reduces his chances of resurrection by 50% or so.
Ten Bears,
I agree! It still won’t make it any easier to watch though.. 🙁
I can definitely see that. He sure looked like a victim in his human form when he was getting the dragon glass shoved into his chest. One way or another though, the current form of the NK has to be defeated.
Gwidhiel,
To be honest, I hadn’t really given Jojen’s burning hand much thought, so you raise some good points. I can’t think of anyone else either that would fit that imagery better. And it is indeed powerful imagery, no denying that. So.. great. Now you have me all turned around and second-guessing myself. 🙂
However, it still feels like a bit of a hard left turn for him considering almost none of his story has involved the WW or the NK, whereas it has been almost the entire focus of Jon and Bran’s story. But maybe there is room for Jamie in there as well to play a part, somehow relating back to how he was the one who crippled Bran? What if it’s Jon v. NK, Bran warging, and Jamie protecting Bran?
As for Heartsbane, that sword will absolutely be wielded by someone. Jorah or Sandor seem like good candidates. Or Podrick? Ha. I still think there’s a chance Gendry might reforge it into something else, even though it hasn’t been established that he knows how to rework Valyrian Steel. I suppose they could explain that with him being taught by Tobho Mott, though again, I don’t think the show ever specifically mentioned he knew how to rework Valyrian Steel either, only that he was the best smith in KL. It might be a bit of a stretch perhaps, but I would think Gendry’s smithing skills will be of some kind of importance/value.
It doesn’t imply that at all. It actually implies that Tormund and Beric turn into unicorns and fly away on a golden trumpet while singing the Beatles’ Yellow Submarine song.
Alba Stark,
From your lips to the ears of the old gods and the new. Bind them all nice and shiny like, and I’d drop a nice sum for it.
I saw the more tabloid style GOT website ran a dead pool and to be honest that site has rapidly gone downhill. Would love Watchers to do something I also prefer some of the articles which Morgoth has been doing in predicting the fates of more secondary characters.
Anyway for a bit of fun here is my Deadpool
Almost certain to die: Mountain, Qyburn, Euron, Cersei, Night King.
High probability but may make it: Jorah, Jamie, Grey worm, Beric, Yara, Melisandre, Varys.
Could go either way: Theon, Dany, Bran, Tormund.
Would be a shock but wouldn’t rule it out: Jon, Arya, Sansa, Missandei.
About as safe as it gets: Sam, Gilly, Davos, Tyrion
Did I miss anyone?
Jon Snowed,
“Did I miss anyone?”
🐓
🐓🐓
🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓
Extended for a few more characters I missed:
Almost certain to die: Mountain, Qyburn, Euron, Cersei, Night King.
High probability but may make it: Jorah, Jamie, Grey worm, Beric, Yara, Melisandre, Varys. Lord Voyce.
Could go either way: Theon, Dany, Bran, Tormund. Bronn.
Would be a shock but wouldn’t rule it out: Jon, Arya, Sansa, Missandei. The Hound. Brienne, Pod.
About as safe as it gets: Sam, Gilly, Davos, Tyrion
Gwidhiel,
Sorry, a bit behind from yesterday. Yeah, Jamie was the only one to have a specific weirwood dream, I just meant that besides him I think only Dany, Jon and Bran have had dreams about the White Walkers. I’m pretty sure Dany has had one… or maybe just visions in the House of the Undying? And I don’t remember Jon’s specifically but I assume he’s had to have at least one by now.
just rewatched two scenes: Jojen’s burning hand and, Jon Snow saving Jeor Mormont. and hell, did Jojen’s burning hand remind me of the zombie hand Jon burned at the Dragon Pit meeting!
i had three candidates in mind to whom Jojen’s burning hand may have pointed.
Jamie as a left handed guy would be a choice. before having hot fingers, Jojen realized footprints outside of Craster’s hut. footprints of the guy who has cut off Jamie’s right hand. and as Bran fell off the tower for a reason (as Bran explained to Osha some time before), this might be Jojen seing Jamie as part of the end Meera asked about.
the other idea of course was Arya. when Jojen says “this is not the end”, it invites for a look at the beginning of their journey together. when Osha stops Jojen’s approach to Bran by holding a spear at his neck he explains “my sister carries the weapons”. “just like mine”, Bran may have thought. a second later, Meera holds a dagger at Osha’s throat. just like Bran’s sister would do to other people on many occasions later in the show.
as much as mirroring pairs of siblings thrills me, i think Jojen’s burning hand didn’t point at Arya. neither at Jamie.
Arya’s left hand got “burned” by genetics. she’s left handed, and she’ll always be. Jamie’s right hand got “burned” by an asshole. none of these right hands out of service have any connection to the big cold scary end.
Jon’s right hand has this connection. he saved the lord commander of the NW from an undead whose name i forgot. Ozzy or so, wtf. Jon threw a lantern at Ozzy. End of Ozzy. he burned his right hand badly then, in the books even more than in the show. in a really satisfying act of revenge, Jon burns the cut off hand of a zombie at the Dragon Pit.
so here’s nr 1: it was Jon whose presence Jojen felt outside Craster’s. and nr 2: The Hound fucked up all my nice tinfoil when he cut off the zombie’s LEFT hand. damn you, Sandor Clegane, you had one job!
still, my vote is Jon.
and of course, arya’s RIGHT hand got burned by genetics! left and right is so complicated, isn’t it, Clegane?!
I tend to not have strong intuitions about specific details, so that certainly sounds like a possibility to me.
Re Heartsbane, I think that Jorah is the most likely candidate: he has a sympathetic connection to Sam already, and he turned down Jon’s offer to reclaim the Mormont family sword. But I’d wouldn’t rule out Sandor Clegane.
Oh wow – I hadn’t noticed that connection when I last watched that episode. I was just thinking about how clever they were to make me uncertain who to root for, as Locke was trying to ambush the renegade NW at Craster’s (who were just awful) but he himself was also awful. I hadn’t considered Locke’s connection to Jaime.
You make some good points,
death by chickenfire, but I’m sticking with Jaime F*king Lannister. 🙂
Jaehaerys,
Oh did Daenerys dream of the White Walkers or have a vision of them in the House of the Undying? I was unaware of that; I remember she had a vision in which she went north of the wall, but I didn’t recall her seeing anyone besides Khal Drogo & Rhaego in the tent. If she’d seen the NK or WW in a dream or a vision, you’d think she’d have more readily believed Jon when he showed up on Dragonstone seeking assistance to fight the AotD.
I can’t get over Melisandre’s equivocating response when Daenerys directly asked her if she believed that D is the PTWP. My takeaway from that (just mine!) is that Mel doesn’t believe that it’s Dany (I think that Mel believes, now, that it’s Jon). She said that Dany has a role to play and she directly suggested that Dany send for Jon Snow.
Here’s a bit of my own tinfoil 🤖, which I should say up front is premised on my own belief that Daenerys’s story is tragic, not triumphant: 🤖🤖 what if Melisandre has had a vision of Jon riding a dragon and fighting the AotD? 🤖🤖 –>The only way he gets a dragon is through Daenerys, so Melisandre did what she could to make that connection. I suspect Mel’s interpretation of whatever vision she’s had casts Daenerys in a supporting role at best – a supplier of a dragon, not the central hero.
Even if my guess about Melisandre’s beliefs about the specific roles that Jon and Daenerys will play is correct, Melisandre herself has a poor track record of accurately interpreting the visions that she has. But for all that Daenerys is being pushed to the North, to fight the AotD and also due to her feelings for Jon, and even though she’s currently the only one armed with two dragons that have a chance to take out sizable chunks of the AotD, I don’t think we’ve been given any sign that she has a direct role to play in defeating the Night King. Unless she’s had a vision or dream about him that I’ve missed (entirely possible).
I hope they keep some remnant of the final act of Beric’s book plot – just not to facilitate Sansa or Arya-Stoneheart over the real thing.
death by chickenfire,
Jojen’s hand burning is a vision of his own fate in 0410 when the Child of the Forest throws a flaming projectile unto his body to prevent him from rising as a wight.
That’s what I always thought anyway.
Good call on the Undead, Ten Bears. I was going to say the easiest is Living or Dead at the conclusion of the main story, but will amend that to Living, Dead or Undead (with the caveat that What Is Undead May Never Die).
Or we could go with a tiered score like Jon Snowed suggested:
1 – Will Die
2 – Will Most Likely Die
3 – Could Go Either Way
4 – Will Most Likely Live
5 – Will Live
In either format: 1 point for each correct answer. Tie breaks can be Dead in chronological order, then Undead in chronological order, or something else equally difficult, This scoring seems much easier than running it like a real-life dead pool where you get more points if younger, healthier (more plot-armored) people die.
Either way, I’m most interested in seeing it in a poll form, like the four part poll commissioned for Con of Thrones, so the data can be collected and presented in a more graphic fashion.
At least it will give us something fun to wile away a bit of time during the rest of The Long Winter.
I don’t know how the weather is where you are, but right now I feel stuck in a very Long Summer. 😉
Stray observations:
IMO, Jaime and Cersei’s fates are tied together. As Olenna said to Jaime in season 7 episode 3, “She’ll be the death of you.” If Olenna says it’ll happen I’m inclined to believe it. Her word is gospel 🙂
HBO2 has been airing season 7 this week. I was just watching “Beyond the Wall” last night and I couldn’t believe how much of a jerk Dany was being towards Tyrion when the subject of succession was brought up. She was so unbelievably insulting and defensive. To me, the closer we get to the end game, the more entitled Dany is acting. I really hope that changes in the last season.
The scene where Benjen saved the day for Jon towards the end of the episode is silly. Benjen arrives, gets off his horse, puts Jon Snow on it, Jon tells Benjen he should get on the horse too, but Benjen says “there’s no time” even though there was not a wight to be found near them for a good 30 seconds or so. I really wish they would’ve made that scene a little less silly.
Gwidhiel,
Yeah, I think I jumped the gun on Dany having dreams/visions of White Walkers… at least when I quickly researched on Google a second ago I couldn’t find anything substantial. I’ll point out that I was only talking about the books because she definitely has had no connection with them on the show prior to season 7.
The closest thing that I found that I might’ve been thinking of was in the House of the Undying, one of the visions she sees is a man with pale blue eyes and no shadow holding a burning sword. I guess many people think this is supposed to be Stannis, which would make sense with the burning sword, but the pale blue eyes and no shadow definitely makes me think of White Walkers. Anyway, I feel like I was remembering something else entirely; like she had an actual dream once where she saw White Walkers (or maybe just a representation of them as something else), but I can’t find anything on it so I’m probably wrong.
As to your tinfoil about Dany, I totally agree. Mel’s response to Dany definitely made it seem that Mel didn’t actually think it was Dany… and I fully believe Mel is on the Jon Snow train. Even in the books, she asks the Lord of Light to send her a vision, but all she sees is “snow.” And I imagine that having been able to resurrect someone for the first time definitely had an impact on her thoughts of Jon’s importance.
Certainly possible that Mel has already seen Dany’s fate… or, like you suggested, just Jon on a dragon. She is often wrong, and did see Jon fighting at the battle for Winterfell (which she thought was beside Stannis, but it was actually after Stannis’ battle) and misinterpreted that. Maybe she thinks Jon will take Dany’s dragon after she dies, but in actuality Dany gives him Rhaegal once she finds out he’s a Targ. I don’t know, food for thought, but I like where your heads at with this.
Jaehaerys,
Oh thanks for looking into the question of Daenerys’s visions -I’d also done a quick, fruitless google search but it’s a subtle enough thing that it could be there (especially if it’s book-only) and just didn’t surface immediately.
The thing about Melisandre, and visions/prophecies in general, is that in hindsight we can see that, sometimes, even though the person’s initial interpretation was “wrong”, by acting on their “misunderstanding” they actually do set up the circumstances through which the “real” prophesied outcome will be realized. E.g. with Mel specifically, she knows now that Stannis wasn’t the PTWP. But without her preliminary misunderstanding that he was, and that he therefore was the one to save the kingdom from the threat to the north, Stannis probably wouldn’t have gone north, thus not arriving in time to save the NW (and most importantly Jon Snow) from the Wildling invasion. And Mel wouldn’t have been on hand at Castle Black to bring Jon Snow back to life after he was murdered, had she not followed her belief about Stannis. (I am NOT justifying Shireen’s burning, btw!)
There are plenty of examples in literature about ironically self-fulfilling prophecies that are realized specifically because people were trying to avoid what was foretold. GRRM has also used that theme with Cersei. But I find the “you were ultimately right but not in the way you initially thought” theme more intriguing.
Besides Melisandre, there are only a few other people who have had prophetic visions/dreams that they’ve tried to parse, and/or had others deliver prophesies to them: among those few, Dany and Bran have had the most. Leaving Bran aside (because his visions are about everything and anything), Daenerys’s visions have seemed to be about things connected to her personally. And she has been warned by Quaith, and her own experience, about people wanting to take her dragons from her and/or use her for her dragons. If I’m right about Melisandre perceiving that Dany’s role in the Great War is more secondary/supporting I think that ties in neatly with the multiple warnings that Daenerys has received over the course of the story about being used for her dragons. I don’t even think it has to be someone deliberately using her, ala the warlocks in Qarth or Xaro Xhoan Daxos, to be true.
ETA: sorry this was a ramble. I think I’m trying to say that sometimes prophesies will unfold in stages and also that sometimes a prophecy an individual receives might actually be about a supporting step in a larger story, rather than the final outcome. That’s still pretty rambling, sorry.
Mr Derp,
You know, the Benjen scene with Jon does seem a tad off, but I was reading the chapter yesterday in which Bran finally arrives at Bloodraven’s cave and it definitely gave me some of the same vibes. Different circumstances, but GRRM gives us an image of Coldhands fighting off wights all around him with a flaming weapon, what I’d assume is the same thing Benjen uses in the show. Eventually Bran gets knocked out by a pile of snow, but when he wakes up in the cave and asks where Coldhands is, he’s told that Coldhands stayed behind because the magic didn’t allow him entry into the cave, just as the Wall wouldn’t allow Benjen entry.
Again, obviously different circumstances as Benjen could have rode with Jon to the Wall like he did with Bran and Meera and then left him… but what’s the point? Benjen’s part in this war is done, there isn’t really much he could do anymore anyway, and he isn’t really living. He probably thought dying there and taking out as many wights as possible was as good an ending as he could hope for.
And, you know, D&D didn’t need him anymore, so they tied up that loose end 🙂
So I guess my point here was that maybe D&D were trying to replicate that Coldhands scene in a way? Not sure, but if you read that chapter again it draws lots of similarities.
Mr Derp,
I agree that they way they’d handled Benjen in S7 was a disappointment. But for me it was a minor issue in the overall ludicrousness of what happened in that episode.
Gwidhiel,
I totally get what you mean! When I was searching for Dany’s supposed White Walker vision I read some of that stuff about GRRM’s take on prophesies. They can’t be straight up, because that would be boring and give too much away, but for a prophesy to be fulfilled in a way no one expects, well that’s cool. I think he gave an example of something that happens during the War of the Roses: one of the king’s was given a prophesy that he’d die at some castle, so he avoided the castle his whole life, only to die outside an inn or pub or something that had the castle on its sign. So the prophesy really did tell true in the end.
George definitely loves to play with these weird ideas of prophesy and fulfilling them indirectly (like the Stannis thing you mentioned above), and I bet we’ll have even more of this in the last two books. Which is crazy, because it must be so hard to write that stuff! I’m not so sure we’ll have too much of this in the last season of the show, except possibly with the PTWP, but it’s a very cool concept that GRRM is so good at implementing.
Gwidhiel,
Jaehaerys,
Daenerys has a dream in ASOS in which she fights an army “armored in ice”.
The script also heavily implies Melisandre believes Dany to be the PTWP.
https://imgur.com/a/ZQQOyIy
Jay Targ,
Thanks for pointing out Daenerys’s dream about fighting an army armored in ice. So that is definitely one connection she has to the Great War. Good to know.
I disagree that the script is telling us that “the princess that was promised” is a belief of Melisandre’s. The scripts are full of wry authorial asides, and I think that’s one of them. But your interpretation is certainly as plausible as mine.
I agree all around.
Jay Targ,
Thanks Jay Targ! I could’ve sworn she had this dream in one of the books but couldn’t find it for the life of me.
And that script line is interesting… she still seems all in on Jon to me, based on how she acts and a couple of book hints that make me think she’ll jump on the Jon bandwagon after Stannis is eventually defeated.
But that isn’t to say she can’t think they are both the PTWP. I don’t think it has to be mutually exclusive.
Jay Targ,
In addition to that, Dany has a vision of the Wall in ACoK. And in ADwD, Xharo (who’s still alive at this point) calls Drogon a “flaming sword upon the world.” It could be a red herring or it could be a subtle hint that the flaming sword/light bringer is a dragon rather than a literal sword. But if it is a dragon, the dream she had in ASoS could foreshadow her losing a dragon to the Night’s King (which happened in the show but not the books). I’m not saying she’s the PTWP, but the nearly back-to-back narratives of Jon and Dany in ADwD may suggest that they both fulfill this prophecy. But that’s just my Tinfoil theory.
As for Melissandre, I forget which book it is, but there’s an inner dialogue she has asking the Lord of Light for an image of Azor Ahai, and all she sees in the flames is Jon Snow. I think this excerpt was alluded to towards the end of Season 4. After the battle against the Wildlings at the Wall, they’re burning the dead Night’s Watch brothers and through the flames she spots Jon Snow *cue ominous Lord of light music*. Either way, I don’t think she’s jumping to conclusions about prophecy anymore after Stannis and the tragic Shireen incident.
Jaehaerys,
I agree that Benjen’s part in the wars to come was done and it was time for him to be killed off. I didn’t have any issue with that. What I did have an issue with was the cornball way they did it. It’s supposed to be an emotional scene, but every time I see it I can’t help but to chuckle a bit at the “there’s no time” line. All they had to do was make the wights close in on them faster than they did, and problem solved. There wasn’t anyone even around when he said it. It’s distractingly silly for me, but of course, ymmv 🙂
Thanks for posting this. People have been speculating about Tyrion’s last look in the episode; the script says “Looking troubled for more reasons than one”. Not disappointed, or anything like that. He’s worried about what the match means.
I don’t know why. Queen of the 7 Kingdoms and King in the North. It’s a very logical match from a political perspective. (notwithstanding that in reality he, I believe, has the better claim to the iron throne than she does)
Whatever Tyrion discussed with Cersei at their Helsinki summit caused alarm about Jon and Dany getting intimate with each other. Tyrion expected Dany to marry someone in Westeros, according to Daario.; so why would he be worried about her choosing Jon? Were there any other eligible bachelors available? No way could Tyrion expect Dany to marry Jaime or himself, right? Furthermore, he noticed that Jon was already in love with Dany, so why worry now? The intervening events are the revelation that Jon bent the knee, and the Helsinki summit.
Jon bent the knee and Dany didn’t tell her Hand! And, I wonder if that changed anything for Tyrion when he went to talk to Cersei. Tyrion likely thought he was shut out in the cold by Dany and Jon.
I think I got about the same mileage you did.
Every time I’ve rewatched the Benjen ex machina scene in which he shows up out of the blue with no explanation to rescue Jon six seasons after vanishing, only to give Jon his horse and send him on his way a few seconds later with just three words (“there’s no time“), I can’t help but visualize Uncle Benjen as Groucho Marx singing: 🎶”Hello I Must Be Going .”🎵
Groucho sang that song in the Marx Brothers movie “Animal Crackers” (1930). He played Captain Jeffrey T. Spaulding, an explorer who’d just returned from a long expedition in the African wilderness. A rich New York socialite hosts a lavish celebration in his honor. Captain Spaulding shows up (late) to a rousing reception, but immediately informs the guests he’s only staying long enough to say hello and announce he’s leaving – by launching into the song:
🎶
“Hello, I must be going.
I cannot stay, I came to say,
I must be going.
I’m glad I came, but just the same,
I must be going.” 🎵
Whatever emotional resonance the Uncle Benjen/Jon Snow scene was supposed to have, it will forever be rendered “distractingly silly” in my mind too. 😬
Wakaranai,
Like you say, it’s a logical match, so why is he worried for multiple reasons? Seems kind of farfetched that he’d want Jaime to marry Dany instead, I mean, he did kill her father. But Tyrion noted that Dany already married someone she abhorred for the good of the city, plus Tyrion thinks he can talk anyone into anything. Maybe he thinks he could persuade her to marry Jaime for the good of Westeros? If she disagrees, it’s death, dungeon, or exile for Jaime.
It’s clear Tyrion feels he owes his brother his life and he could have thought the way to save Jaime is by marriage once all Jaime’s children were dead and he was less bound to Cersei….then he finds out Cersei is pregnant again! Another complication! The absolute worst outcome is for Jaime to be reattached to Cersai on one side, while powerful Lannister enemies – Jon and Dany – are getting closer on the other.
Then Dany reveals her distrust by not telling him that Jon bent the knee.
Anon,
Thanks. I don’t know if I quite buy/understand the theory (not your fault, just me).
But the overall point that this throws a monkey wrench into an agenda Tyrion is pushing makes sense. I hope that it doesn’t turn into the Tyrion betrayal theories that are out there.
Whatever it is, I hope it doesn’t just come out of the blue (which is looking like it’s going to be). The show did that especially badly last season, to try to recapture Ned Stark death or Red Wedding level of shock. Like the turn against Littlefinger (the show spends the whole season insinuating, unpersuasively, there’s distrust between Sansa and Arya only to abruptly turn it around in the last episode – going simply for shock value rather than storytelling or any logical organic plot) or honestly the Benjen deus ex machina Ten Bears mentioned above (BTW Ten Bears I agree with you 100%).
Wakaranai,
It might once have been a logical match politically, but that’s not what Tyrion is witnessing.
Daenerys isn’t Queen and Jon is no longer King.
They aren’t getting married as part of a political alliance. They are romantically liaising in secret, behind the backs of their advisers.
And with Jon having just surrendered his crown and his kingdom to her, the perception that they are lovers is a potentially disastrous one politically.
With regard to Dany, Tyrion managed to convince her to ditch Daario because he would be a hindrance to her politically. Back then she was all about the business – “just impatient to get on with it”. Now she’s getting distracted by romance.
She already lost one dragon because she refused to abandon Jon (and Jorah) to their fate. What more would she risk for Jon now that they are romantically involved?
Tyrion is witnessing a ruler in whom he put his faith to be better than those that went before succumbing to the same self-interest that led the Seven Kingdoms to ruin – think Cersei, Rhaegar, Robb…
Jon is obviously not blameless either. He’s apparently making the same mistakes that got Robb killed. Risking rebellion and the downfall of a crucial alliance for the sake of his own desires.
We know for certain that Dany is infatuated with Jon and, unless there’s some hitherto unseen explanation for Jon’s reckless behaviour, then they are both rashly placing pleasure ahead of business.
That’s the most likely explanation for Tyrion’s unease.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
First of all, it was Tyrion who came up with the idea of this poitless suicide mission – one can be almost forgiven for thinking that he simply wanted Jon killed. What Dany did was simply a duty of a potential ruler to a potential subjet – she came to his aid and that earned her Jon’s allegiance. If she continues this way, earning allegiance of the North (and Westeros) won’t be a problem, too: because that’s what people expect from a good ruler – to fight for each and single one of them and take personal risks.
And going back to Tyrion he has no right to criticize Dany for anything: despite of his best intentions, he has been failing in every field since he began to serve Dany. He underestimated the masters, he underestimated Cersei, he has been irritating Dany all the time… In fact, Tyrion should have be worrying about himself.
Inga,
The suicide mission was a solution to the impasse all parties had reached.
Jon was ready to go home and fight the Army of the Dead alone. Dany refused to suspend her quest for the throne to assist him. And Cersei was never going to give up without a fight.
So Tyrion proffered a solution. A solution which, by the way, he risked his own life to try to facilitate. But obviously he never would have expected Dany to be a part of this suicide mission. That’s all on her!
And who was she flying north to save? Her loyal manservant and a man she has a crush on. Despite what you say, a queen risking their own life and the future of their kingdom to try and save one or two lives are not the actions of a good ruler.
It’s like if Robb had charged off to King’s Landing to try and rescue Sansa and Arya single-handedly. Would that have been the mark of a good king? What about Jon’s attempts to save Rickon, which compromised his battle plans and led his army to the point of slaughter? Of course we can sympathise with or even celebrate such actions, but they aren’t really the mark of a good ruler.
And we know in hindsight that Dany’s decision has already had disastrous consequences – gifting the Night King a dragon and causing the destruction of The Wall – for no positive gain. The truce they hoped to gain from Cersei has already been undermined.
Tyrion has every right to criticise Dany, especially since he was was obviously correct in his most recent advice for her not to go north of The Wall. Previous mistakes don’t automatically invalidate his assessment of Dany’s behaviour and the notion that he has no right to question her decisions because he’s been “irritating” her is absurd.
Yep, was good fun and most enjoyable reading the script. Not forgetting to mention those descriptive paragraphs D&D added to give the actors some idea of how to perform their parts. This one in particular:
“Jorah nods in deference. But he’s not smiling at all. Fucking punkass little shitburger stole my Khaleesi!”
I remember that scene well and could tell Ser Jorah was not happy with Dany turning her affections toward Jon and looking well pissed off at the time. I bet Iain Glen had a chuckle when he read the script 🙂 The expression on his face said it all…
I am fairly sure, quote or no quote, that they survived. Now, from the actual filming, they died; no question about that. They ran to the side of the wall that immediately collapsed. But regardless of what they filmed, the script will reverse it and do what they want.. just Arya survived a deadly stabbing, and Jaime floated in armor.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
It’s interesting how you see Tyrion as some flawless beakon of wisdom, although so far he has been the most selfish and stupid of the three. Let’s see. He was rather successful in dealing with petit cowards like Slynt or Pycel or Lancel Lannister but every time he encountered a more ruthless oponent he failed. And when it comes to sacrificing personal interests, when has Tyrion ever done that? He put Shae at risk and eventually brought her to the point where he had to kill her only because he wanted to have both Shae and the game (+ his family). He deveoped the war plan against Cersei so that she or at least Jaime could have an escape route, although such strategy was doomed from the beginning: Cersei wouldn’t have surrendered even with the aemies of Dorne and the Reach at the gate of KL. And Tyrion has admitted it himself: he never saught destruction of his house, although, when he presented himself to Dany, he presented himself as the most efficient Lannister-killer of all times. There was now talk about reaching some peaceful arrangement, was it? In other words, Tyrion is pretty much lost among his lies and conflicting interests, he is trying to accomodate them somehow, but people who put their trust suffer losses.
I don’t hate Tyrion – he is an interesting and tragic character but his judgements and worries have to be taken with a grain of salt to say the least.
Tyrion tried almost everything to keep Shae out of danger since they arrived in KL. in the end he even chartered a boat to get her out of KL, and it’s not his fault she did not use it. i still don’t know how Shae ended up in Tywin’s bed, but i know it was after she told a good bunch of lies against Tyrion at his trial. i also don’t know how Tyrion would have reacted to seeing her “my lion”-show in the bed of his father (who was obviously dealing Tyrion’s life for a peace with Dorne before), hadn’t she been so dumb to pull the dagger.
killing Shae was surely not an act of ruthlessness, neither was disturbing Tywin’s last shit. it was just necessary for Tyrion on his escape from death row.
Inga,
To say that Tyrion killed Shae because he selfishly wanted to have both her and a prominent position in the great game is just wrong. Tyrion actually went out of his way to break up with Shae prior to his arrest, telling her there was no future for them together. As a matter of fact, I would say a large part of his motivation for breaking up with her was to protect her. She was the one who wouldn’t listen despite the fact that Tyrion was hinting this to her for multiple seasons. Besides, he had to kill her because, well, if you watch the scene again, she went for a knife first, yes?
It’s kind of funny. I believe it’s the same episode that Dany tells Tyrion that she hates heroes because “heroes do stupid things and they die”, yet she basically contradicts herself later on in the same episode by going North of the Wall to risk everything. Apparently, it’s not ok for Drogo, Jorah, Daario, or Jon, but it’s ok for Dany.
Also, the way Dany treats Tyrion when he brings up a succession plan is horrible. Tyrion made his mistakes in season 7 too, but he brought up a completely valid point here. If Dany takes the Iron Throne, how does she guarantee that the wheel will stay broken once she breaks it? Especially since she “allegedly” can’t have children. Dany basically responds to him by insulting him, accusing him of wanting her to die, and intimating that he’s a traitor just for bringing it up.
death by chickenfire,
Mr Derp,
These are good and valid points but still knowing his family Tyrion shouldn’t have brought Shae to KL in the first place. The very least he should have fled with her to Pentos in the end of S2 or he should have broken with her the very moment he decided to choose the game.
Sure, I don’t blame him for acting irresponisibly and failing to realize all the risks in time. I just want to point that, when it comes to responsibility, Tyrion is no different from Jon or Dany or even Robb: he has a record of making wrong choices based on emotions just as they do and he’s still making them, though I have a gut feeling that eventually will be promoted by those stupid emotional choices and not rational calculations. One way or another, Tyrion’s judgement is just jis judgement, not some objective truth.
Can’t be that interesting… since I don’t.
I even acknowledged that he’d made previous mistakes in my comment.
You appear to be letting your dislike for Tyrion distort your interpretation of other people’s opinions.
Mr Derp,
Yeah, that comment about heroes seems pretty on the nose.
Her own contradiction both later in the episode and in previous episodes (“What kind of a queen am I if I’m not willing to risk my life to fight them”) may suggest that she’s eventually going to get herself killed doing something heroic.
The succession issue is clearly supposed to be a red flag for the audience. A ruler who wants to revolutionise the way a kingdom is governed shouldn’t be reacting so defensively to the idea of planning for its future, nor turning on one of their advisers for suggesting they do so.
This is another instance of her seeming to deviate from her stance before embarking on this conquest. She’s gone from confidently declaring “I’m going to break the wheel” to “We will discuss the succession after I wear the crown” (she says that exact line twice, by the way).
Bear in mind, this is also the scene where she says the, “That was necessary”, line about burning the Tarlys alive.
And a line about “Which war was won without deceit and mass murder?” and another about how “Aegon Targaryen got quite a long way on fear”.
Honestly, that whole scene feels like a massive red flag. Suggesting fear and mass murder as a route to victory and control over a kingdom. Justifying burning men alive as “necessary”. Paranoid accusations against one of her closest advisers. And an overly-defensive reaction to her own mortality and her non-existent plans for the future of Westeros.
Presumably we were supposed to be distracted by the “Yass, queenn!!! Slay!!!!” moment north of The Wall and the death of one of her “children” later in the episode, so as not to linger on quite how badly she comes across in this scene.
But it certainly sheds a little more doubt on Jon’s “They’ll all come to see you for what you are” line.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Sorry, if I misinterpreted your opinion but you have done the same mistake: I like Tyrion very much with all his flaws. He is what he is: a rational game-player who expects other players to act rationally, too. Sometimes it’s for the better, sometimes it’s for the worse. Same for Dany: she’s a revolutionary and most of the revolutionaries end up as tyrants, though there’s no change without them. And Jon is just an idealist and idealists never last long, etc. However, great challenges requre all types of people and that’s what GOT is about.
I think they’ve been foreshadowing this for quite a while. She so far doesn’t seem to consider herself vulnerable when she’s on Drogon – even though he’s been hit and injured while she was riding him, and despite the explicit concerns Jorah and others have expressed about her own vulnerability to arrows. If it’d be too difficult to develop armor for the dragons, or if it would be impossible to get the dragons to wear armor, they could at least get her some armor and a helmet.
Maybe that’s where Gendry will come in in S8? I mean, they can’t seriously let Daenerys continue to ride Drogon into battles while completely vulnerable to arrow-fire.
But Jon is in love with Daenerys. We know this because Tyrion said so, and his track record in accurately assessing situations in Season 7 was flawless. And there’s proof that Jon loves her, because they had sex on a boat. Men only have sex with women they are in love with. It is known.
That’s an interesting point. It’s frustrating to observe things that need fixing, and find that people aren’t picking up what you’re putting down. When you’re not in a position to impose your will on others, you can end up cynical about change, or in rare cases persevere and valiantly try to persuade others to your cause, perhaps not living long enough to see the fruits of your labor realized (if they are at all).
But if you are in a position to impose your will on others in pursuit of what you think will be an improvement on the status quo, you can ignore negative feedback and override resistance. This really does seem to be the crux of Daenerys’s story.
Oh come on lol. The show was pretty on the nose about it, especially with the match cut of “He loved her and she loved him”.
Besides, the episode script/summary that leaked makes it clear as well
Now that’s not to say it will remain that way, what happens in S8 is anyones guess, but the Jon/Dany romance was clearly something they were going for in S7.
History is full of people like this, thinking that they know better than everyone else, so therefore, they should be put into positions of power and prestige, so they can tell everyone else how to live their lives. It’s the excuse of every tyrant in history. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out for Dany in season 8.
I personally don’t see Dany as a tyrant, but she is walking a fine line these days.
Yeah, but Bran (the speaker) was talking about Jon’s parents being in love, not Jon & Daenerys. If that was the presentation of a love story – so short, no first kiss shown, no words except someone else narrating over the action while describing another couple’s relationship (which renders the one we’re watching incestuous) – well, I for one think they did a terrible job.
To me that scene presented sex with some creepy voyeuristic undertones thanks to Bran’s narration and the inclusion of Tyrion watching Jon enter Daenerys’s cabin. Jon and Daenerys weren’t even shown in half the scene’s runtime, because of the flashback and inclusion of Tyrion. If it was meant to show blossoming love – and perhaps you’re right, perhaps it was supposed to be love – then we can chalk that up as yet another S7 failure to show us what they intended us to take away. I received it as something the audience was meant to view with a lot of unease and apprehension.
And that’s kind of weird, because in that very same season, they showed us a very convincing love scene between Grey Worm and Missandei. It was reasonably touching, and it lasted nearly 3 minutes. As admirable as Grey Worm and Missandei are, I don’t think anyone would classify either of them as central characters in the story. Why present such a tender, extended scene between two secondary characters and so little time to an awkwardly presented encounter between the two main characters, if both were intended to be love scenes? You could of course be right, Jay Targ. But I definitely don’t see it that way.
Yes, Bran was talking about Jon’s parents, but the sequence is obviously match cut to Jon/Dany.
Sure, but as Podeswa put it, the viewers are supposed to question “what happens after this”.
Precisely because Greyworm and Missandei aren’t main characters, so the viewers aren’t really supposed to look forward to what comes after. One isn’t supposed to question the consequences of their romance.
Yet those are the questions that, we the audience, are supposed to be asking about Jon and Dany. What are the consequences of this? Is their love doomed as Rhaegar and Lyanna’s was? What will Jon’s reaction be to the info bomb he’s headed towards? What will be Dany’s reaction? Amongst various other questions.
I can see how that interpretation makes sense. It’s not how I viewed that scene, but it seems plausible. I tend to be suspicious when the show heavily hints about something (e.g. Cersei’s pregnancy) but never actually confirms it’s the truth.
To stay with the Cersei example, if she’d ever said to Jaime or Tyrion that yes, she was pregnant I’d tend to believe it, even recognizing that she could actually have been lying. But when I see her evade answering the question directly with words, allowing her brothers to believe that she’s pregnant without ever actually saying she is, I assume there’s a reason for the plausible deniability. That same logic makes me doubt that Melisandre thinks that Dany is the PTWP. And the fact that Jon has never expressed any affection for Daenerys, to her or to anyone else, makes me doubt that he’s in love with her. My reasoning for doubting any or all of these possible plot developments might be completely off-base. But the show has a history of heavily hinting at things that never actually come to pass.
Doesn’t she straight up tell Jaime that she’s pregnant? But regardless, that question will be answered early in S8.
Well isn’t Jon the one who initiates physical contact in cave? He is also the one who goes to hold Dany’s hand in 7×06, and the one who refuses to let go.
I’d say that the reason there isn’t such a focus on Jon and Dany showing affection to one another, is that at this stage it would be out of character for them. Both are so focused on their goals, that they tend to put their desires to the side. As Jon points out to Davos (when it’s revealed that Jon like Dany), “there’s no time for that”. It’s not till the finale that they give in to them.
I think Alba Stark may have put it in simpler terms in the other thread
http://watchersonthewall.com/alan-taylor-jeremy-podeswa-chat-dragon-deaths-tumbling-walls-incest-love-scenes-season-7/#comment-1250237
Perhaps they didn’t do an adequate job of showing a love blossoming between Jon & Daenerys for everyone to believe that was the intention. However, what they didn’t have is seasons worth of interaction and joint experiences between the two to build it. They had just a handful of scenes over four episodes to get “there.” Even as secondary characters they had more time to squeeze in things about a relationship forming between Missandei and Grey Worm. Brienne and Jaime has been building (behind their words) since S2 so many want or even expect them to get together.
When I first started reading the books and got a ways into it I started believing that the story was mainly surrounding them and heading toward the joining of Jon and Daenerys. As I’ve written before, it’s my opinion that A Song of Ice and Fire does essentially mean ‘The Story of Jon and Daenerys.’ The show has only strengthened that opinion, especially with Melisandre actually referring to the two as Ice and Fire. I don’t even entertain conversation with those that scrap Daenerys entirely.
Regardless of HOW the story ends, whether it’s happy, sad or BS, I’ve felt it would involve and go through the romantic pairing of J&D. I’ve thought it would be ‘romantic’ and it has seemed more and more likely as every obstacle that could prevent or impede it has been systematically eliminated; Drogo, Rhaego, Ygritte, Daario, other suitors, (probably) Daenerys’ infertility or curse, Jon’s NW vows. So for me I’ve expected actual love between the two so even if it wasn’t conveyed well enough (yet), that’s what I will see and believe as the intention, correct or not.
No, that was what I thought was so weird. They’d discussed in an earlier episode the fact that they had no dynasty to fight for since their children were all dead. Then in episode 5 Cersei berated Jaime for meeting with Tyrion and then gave him a pep talk about how they would fight “for ourselves, for our House. For this.” and gestured to her abdomen. After a pause Jaime asked, “Who would you say is the father?” and Cersei replied, “you.” By implicature, she confirmed that she’s pregnant. But she never actually said she was. And while there was an opportunity post-poisoning of Tyene for her to become pregnant (surely the poison or its antidote would have aborted a fetus?) that was a very short window of time to discover a pregnancy. Not impossible, but there’s enough evasiveness to make me question what we’ve been shown. I think I’m alone in that, and could very well be wrong. Just explaining my reasoning. As you say, we’ll find out in Season 8. Along with everything else we’re debating!
The relationship between Jon and Dany, whatever it may be, can’t fall apart fast enough as far as I’m concerned. I honestly find it to be one of the weakest elements of the entire show so far.
And if they build the conclusion of this show around the notion that Jon and Dany are madly in love, based on… that… well, then the conclusion is already lacking credibility for me.
I just didn’t buy it in the slightest. I cringed my way through that awful, “How about, my queen?” scene. I can’t even watch it. Especially since it undermined perhaps the most gratifying and joyous moment in the show’s history – the King in the North scene. Ugh!
Cat & Ned, Robb & Talisa, Jon & Ygritte, Jaime & Brienne… I know that they can convince me of characters’ feelings for one another in a short span of time. Whatever it says in that script about Jon and Dany’s relationship, I didn’t see it convincingly portrayed on screen. Emilia managed to convey Dany’s growing infatuation well enough, but I didn’t necessarily see any justification for it.
I cling to the possibility that there might be something more to their behaviour or that they’ve set up the relationship just to immediately knock it down again as part of a schism in their alliance.
If it turns out in Season 8 that Jon and Dany was just a red herring or simply the ignition for a powder-keg conclusion, then I’ll consider D&D geniuses.
If we get a load of melodrama all based on the notion that… that… was the show’s great romance, then it could turn out to be a torturous end to a once fantastic show.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yep!
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Couldn’t agree more.
Cat & Ned were a bit different since they were an old married couple with several children at the onset of the series. Even with very few shared scenes only one was needed to have the viewer understand and believe they were supposed to be a loving couple. Robb & Talisa had eleven episodes over two seasons to build and display their relationship. On the show their wedding was pretty darn quick, but they were given time after to show more. Jon & Ygritte – seventeen episodes over three seasons. The relationships for both of those pairs were focus points as well at that early stage in building the story. Jaime and Brienne have had five seasons of build-up to who knows where. Again, J & D have only had a handful of scenes in four episodes so far.
They’ve pretty much just started the relationship between J & D so being upset and condemning it already could be for several reasons I’d suggest, such as:
– A reader/viewer simply doesn’t want them together because they’re related
– It wasn’t expected and it goes against what was expected by the person (gets in the way of one character or the other similar to “it undermines KitN scene.”)
– It isn’t a books couple YET like Robb & Jeyne (Talisa) or Jon & Ygritte so it’s not believable.
Whatever the reason there has to be one to only give them such little time, as well as not waiting to give them the final season to build it further before basically spitting on the pairing and saying it’s weak. IF the ending of the series as well as the book revolves around their relationship then they have to build it during the most hectic and climactic part of the story, unlike those other relationships. George’s story is getting short to fit it in as well, although in writing he can cover a lot of things in few words. D&D should at least be allowed the final season to build on it if that’s where it’s suppose to go. Like I said, it’s just started so it’s premature to call it weak already.
Must the ending revolve around their relationship? Isn’t it at least plausible that their relationship is essential to the progression of the story but that it’s not necessarily going to endure for very long, let alone to the end of the story?
You’re right to point out that there was so little time for them to show a budding romance between Jon and Dany, much less time than was given to Robb & Talisa or to Jon & Ygritte. If they’d needed more time why not have Jon & Dany meet in S7e1? Even within the shortened season 7, they made time to show us the things they thought were important, including devoting 3 minutes of screentime to Missandei and Greyworm getting it on, although I’m pretty sure their relationship isn’t a crucial part of the story.
Clob,
Meh, you’re moving the goalposts on positions I’ve already stated.
I said that they have previously managed to convince me of relationships in a short span of time. It doesn’t matter if, for example, Ned and Cat were an old married couple. Their relationship was convincingly conveyed in just a handful of scenes.
Nor does it matter if the relationships of Jaime & Brienne, Jon & Ygritte or Robb & Talisa continued longer than Jon and Dany have shared so far. The point is that I considered their relationship convincing in a similarly short time frame.
I have no real issue with them being related.
Nor was their relationship unexpected. Was anybody not expecting it?
Nor would I have a problem with their relationship getting in the way of other characters or the way I expected things to go. But it helps if it makes sense and is compelling. Robb breaking his oath – bought it. Jon breaking his vows – bought it. Jon giving up his kingdom because he’s suddenly in awe of Dany – nah, not buying it.
Saying that it’s too soon to judge, at a point when characters are giving up kingdoms and risking murderous rebellion to embark on an affair, is rather generous.
I just didn’t buy it. At all. I felt Dorne levels of cringe.
OK we just watched S7e6 (my husband is nearly caught up!) and I noticed on the trek to find a wight that Jon had a short exchange with Tormund about the Dragon Queen expecting him to bend the knee in order win her aid, and Tormund scoffed that Jon had been with the Wildlings too much to like kneeling. Jon said nothing. Tormund then went on to reminisce about Mance, who was a wonderful leader and didn’t bend the knee … and how many of his people died as a result, Tormund wondered. Jon didn’t reply to that either, but the camera lingered on his face (… perhaps showing some thinking! 🙂 )
So a few … days? … and a lot of death-defying action and the loss of one dragon later, Jon bent the knee. It doesn’t seem so out of left field, to me, upon re-watching.
Gwidhiel,
It’s all a muddled mess, as far as I’m concerned.
Tormund tells Jon that Mance was too proud to bend the knee. Jon knows this is garbage because he challenged Mance on that exact point and Mance denied it and laid out his reasoning.
And since when was Jon’s pride an issue anyway? He stated that his people wouldn’t accept a southern ruler. Don’t give me that “they will if their King does” cop out. Jon got murdered because he accepted the Wildlings and his brothers didn’t. Robb got murdered because his men grew tired of his decisions, dubbing him “The King who Lost The North”. But, sure, let’s pretend that Jon’s suddenly realised that it’s only his pride preventing him surrendering his kingdom to the hated Targaryens.
Beric tells Jon that it doesn’t matter who sits on the Iron Throne and Jon concludes that perhaps being “the shield that guards the realms of men” is enough. Cool. Except that Dany pledged to fight the Army of the Dead before he bent the knee. So he apparently didn’t need to bend the knee in order to continue being “the shield”.
If anything, bending the knee compromises his ability to prioritise defending the Seven Kingdoms and fundamentally ties him to the conflict over the Iron Throne, since he’s now under Dany’s rule. If she says, “the Army of the Dead can wait” and orders Jon to send his men to besiege King’s Landing instead, then he’s screwed.
It simply doesn’t make any sense on the face of it.
And I cringed so hard at him saying she “deserves” his fealty and his kingdom. I don’t know how anybody can accept that Jon reasonably came to that conclusion based on what he saw of her in Season 7.
The only reasons any of this will make sense is if there’s something hitherto unseen going on behind the scenes or if it’s all just a cheap set-up for everything to dramatically go up in flames in Season 8.
I watched 6 seasons of this show and was able to accept or reconcile myself with pretty much all of the major events, characters, betrayals, fantastical elements, inconsistencies, etc.
But I really take issue with how tenuous and illogical and poorly conveyed this supposed romance of Jon and Daenerys has played out, along with its incumbent consequences.
I just…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y5hl9qpBms
Haha, brilliant clip.
I agree with you that (as with so many other aspects of Season 7) the logical, causal connections between what we’ve been shown don’t withstand much scrutiny. I mean, the wight hunt – come on. But I think we can generally see where the show intends to lead us, e.g. Tormund’s little observation about many Wildlings dying because Mance wouldn’t bend the knee leading Jon to re-think his position. We’re supposed to accept that as the justification for Jon subsequently bending the knee.
I do object to the contention that it’s premature to judge the #BoatSex scene in its own right. Clob’s argument above is predicated on the belief that Jon and Daenerys’s romance will be fleshed out in Season 8, that there simply wasn’t time in Season 7 to show us a developing, meaningful love. That could ultimately be correct, but right now that argument is a classic case of begging the question: We cannot question the nature of the emotions that led to or were depicted in #BoatSex or critique the scene as unconvincing, because the emotions haven’t been fully shown yet since there wasn’t time in Season 7 to show them (despite this being the central relationship of the whole story, as we’ll discover in Season 8). Hmmmm….
Nevermind that they found the time in Season 7 to show us secondary characters having a protracted, tender love scene, and even to show us other secondary characters (Ellaria & Yara) flirting heavily with each other. Hmmmmm…..
It could turn out that the show really did intend to show the start of a great romance between Jon and Daenerys. It’s just not the only plausible direction for the story, and I think it’s more reasonable to use the weirdness of #BoatSex to forecast what Season 8 will hold for Jon & Daenerys’s relationship than it is to use hopes/beliefs about Season 8 to explain the shortcomings of #BoatSex.
I’m going to wait and see how it all plays out in season 7 before ultimately judging the Jon/Dany romance.
The last time we saw them was the boat sex scene. We haven’t see anything after that yet, so, IMO, it’s a bit premature to judge where this is all going, but it’s fun to speculate in the offseason.
However, if the next scene involving the two of them goes something like this then I’ll be cringing with the rest of you:
(Dany looks out from the bow of their ship as they approach White Harbor):
“Wow Jon, I just thought the North was nothing more than a freezing pile of snow. I never realized how beautiful it can be.”
Jon turns and gazes into Dany’s eyes, taking her hand into his as a smile flashes: “Not as beautiful as you”
Ok, so if we go in that direction, I’ll be the first one to say how bad it is, but until then, I’ll try and stay optimistic that D&D know where they’re going with this.
Considering the characters we’re talking about and everything that is approaching on the horizon I get the feeling that some of the first conversation we’ll hear between these two will contain something like, “That was a mistake.” Jon already gave us the “there’s no time for that” stuff when Davos ribbed him about her good heart.
I do believe they’re (suppose to be) forming feelings for one another though and would want to explore it further under other circumstances. I just think the story is going to have them initially step back from it because there are more important things to deal with and it would be too difficult and convoluted to throw a relationship in the mix at the moment. So what I’m trying to say is that I don’t expect the “we’re suddenly a lovey-dovey couple now,” as the season starts, but more as close friends resisting anything further. IF the story is suppose to finish with them as a couple or finish with our understanding that they would have been then it will be mostly built through scenes/actions yet to come. As I wrote, it’s early in their relationship with them just realizing there are some feelings there and acting on it once so far… too early to automatically complain about how it will play out.
With the number of GoT actors claiming that season 8 will blow people’s minds, my personal opinion is that this will not end well for most of the characters, and it will certainly not end with any type of Jon/Dany romance. I fully expect that, whatever the ending is, will be completely devastating. Of course, they could all just be fucking with us, but I don’t think so. A lot of them have come out and said one way or another that the ending is unexpected. I’ll probably just be glad if somebody….anybody survives season 8 and gets to live out the rest of their days in peace let alone have a happy ending.
Stray Observation:
When we hear Tyrion dream about living out the rest of his days in a vineyard drinking his Imp’s Delight wine, or Arya talking about exploring to see whats West of Westeros, we tend to think of it as another example of foreshadowing by D&D, but what if it’s not?
What if they’re just pipe dreams? Perhaps they’re dreaming about such scenarios because deep down they know that it’ll never happen and they’ll die fighting either Cersei or the AOTD? Afterall, “if you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention”. I know that line is overused at this point, but it still rings true. At least, I expect it to.
Mr Derp,
So true, especially in case of Tyrion. He had a chance to retire to a vineyard twice: first, when Shae begged him to flee to Penthous and then when he fled to Penthos himself. Maybe, he started talking about that vineyard, because he regretted the posibilities he missed (living a quite life with Shae in particular). One way or another, Tyrion is quite aware that it’s the game that gives him the true taste of life and not the Imp’s Delight.
The same may be true for Arya: she may wonder how it could have turned, had she sailed west of Westeros instead of going to Braavos, but it’s not like she really wants that.
So, if Tyrion actually ends up in a vineyard, or Arya sails west of Westeros, it will in the result of some tragic ostracism rather than a happy retiremen. Though I would rather expect Arya becomming no-one and Tyrion dying while doing something heroic.
I’m calling it now Jon will defend Kings Landing against Dany and her armies in a second dance of dragons, this will be the big twist of an ending.
Jon Snowed,
I could go for that.
The broad alternatives are:
1. Jon & Dany defeat the Night King then travel south to defeat Cersei. (boring).
2. Jon & Dany are defeated in The North, travel south, team up with Cersei to fight the Night King. (not gonna happen).
3. Jon & Dany are defeated in The North, travel south, besiege King’s Landing, defeat Cersei, defend King’s Landing from the Army of the Dead. (I can’t envision two sieges of King’s Landing in six episodes or two identical good guys vs Night King showdowns).
4. Jon & Dany lose in The North, travel south, Night King catches up with them, cue three-way battle in and around King’s Landing. (I could see this one happening, but it doesn’t leave much room for shocks and twists).
They’ve teased Dany torching cities more than enough over the seasons for me to see it finally coming to pass.
Jon Snowed, Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
The possibilities you’ve listed seem plausible. Some others are:
a) Jon & Dany defeat the NK, Dany dies in the process, Jon then has to deal with Cersei. Or flip it so Jon dies and Dany faces Cersei (although I do think that’s pretty unlikely). This would be pretty dull, either way.
b) Daenerys flips out when she learns of Cersei’s betrayal and veers south again, leaving Jon (hopefully with Rhagel) to deal with the NK alone. This time Qyburn’s scorpions are effectively deployed to kill Drogon and Daenerys. Jon has to mop up in Kings Landing after narrowly defeating the NK.
c) Jon and Daenerys form a tense post-parentage-reveal alliance to defeat the NK. The alliance falls apart immediately after, with Daenerys streaking to Kings Landing on Drogon to take out Cersei. This general scenario lends itself to Jon Snowed’s prediction, above, or other variations. If Daenerys really does go over the edge (as some of Emilia Clarke’s recent statements suggest could happen), Jon could even end up having to team up with Cersei to stop her. A storyline in that direction would certainly be full of a lot of twists.
Emilia made statements suggesting this could happen?
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/05/emilia-clarke-cover-story
Gwidhiel,
Ah okay. That comment seems to be about what it was like for her to film Dany’s final scene, and not plot related.
Huh, that’s not how I read it, especially since she went on to say in that interview:
But yymv. Hardly surprising that we don’t see eye to eye on what she meant. 😉
Well it helps when the entire quote is quoted; as the context is about humor in Dany’s storyline, and it’s not related to the prior comment about filming her final scene.
Jay Targ,
Well, yes, they were talking about how in earlier seasons, when possible, they tried to allow Clarke’s natural buoyant humor to peek through in Daenerys. But as we were recently discussing in an earlier thread, that hasn’t happened much in general, it didn’t happen much if at all in S7, and the interview explicitly notes in the excerpt you’ve quoted that there might not be any space at all for her humor in S8. Clarke’s comment about Daenerys doing “weird shit” doesn’t sound at all like humorous antics, but rather things that Clarke herself found unsettling.
Gwidhiel,
Yeah, I should’ve written Jon and/or Dany since those alternatives still work if one of them dies.
Also we have the wildcards in Bran, the Golden Company and whatever Melisandre is cooking up in Volantis, which could supplement these theories.
I like theory b) but I think what undermines it is the structure of Season 8. I can’t picture a big dragon set-piece at King’s Landing happening at the same time early in the season as the battle in The North, only to then go back to King’s Landing for a second round as the climax of the season.
Nor do I think Dany’s going out that early. Not to Qyburn’s scorpions anyway. If Dany were to die early in Season 8, then it’ll be fighting the Night King.
The reason I like the idea of Jon ending up having to defend King’s Landing from Dany, or something similar, is because it’s something that most people aren’t expecting at this stage. However, it would be a solid twist and consistent with what the characters have said and how they’ve behaved / been depicted for many seasons.
Jon ‘the shield that guards the realms of men’ and Dany ‘the conqueror’, who’s only one adviser away from slaughtering those she considers have wronged her and burning their cities to the ground, clashing is not as far-fetched as some would prefer to believe. And the Dance of the Dragons concept has already been referenced.
What it would require is the appropriate spark(s). A spurned lover; lost children; family members’ safety; a million lives at stake; etc etc.
Personally, I see the Night King and his army and Dany and her army/dragons both having to be removed from the equation before the Westerosi can achieve peace.
To be honest I don’t think so either – I was just churning out some possibilities. However I do think that Daenerys’s apparent lack of concern about her vulnerability to projectiles while riding Drogon is worrisome and possibly foreshadowing an injury to come. It’s been mentioned multiple times by different characters, and we’ve been shown her being narrowly missed by arrows and one ice-spear. But we’ve yet to see her even discuss it let alone do something about it.
I agree on all points.
Gwidhiel,
Sure, that may be true for “Clarke-ish humor”. However, they still had humor within her story.
The examples that come first to me are,
Tyrion and Dany’s discussion about dragonglass
Or Dany and Missandei’s conversation about Greyworm
And I won’t try and convince you otherwise; I think the context in which that comment is made is enough.
Jay Targ,
Yup, I agree about those two instances of muted humor in S7. Do you think those were Clarke-style? I just re-watched both of them very recently and thought, as I had on the first viewing, that Clarke was very restrained – that even when she was gently ribbing Missandei with what should have been warm fondness and maybe some excitement or astonishment (since, uh, GW isn’t fully equipped) Daenerys merely smiled a bit and barely raised her eyebrows. Her voice was always Regal Targaryen. No stifled giggling, nothing at all girlish. Which would have been typical in an exchange like that between any two young women, let alone if one of them is Emilia Clarke. But they didn’t let her inject much of herself into that moment.
ETA: I’m not trying to persuade you, either, Jay. You seem to be firm in your views (as am I!) – I’m just explaining where I’m coming from.
Not a big point, but I agree with you here. Honestly, I’d be surprised if Dany doesn’t get injured in one of the battles while on Drogon. I kind of see her being taken out of the equation at some point this season; not die, but get seriously injured as you have mentioned, and unable to take part in the final battle. Maybe this will be the driving force for Jon riding Rhaegal… because Dany is unable to.
In my own fan-fic scenario, I can also see them fighting side by side against the Night King, each on their own dragon. Dany or Drogon gets injured mid-air, and Dany falls to her death… only for Jon to swoop by at the last minute on Rhaegal and catch her. I would also very much like to see Jon jump mid-air from Rhaegal onto Viserion to fight the Night King, which is reminiscent of some lore from the Dance of Dragons. There’s an awesome picture of this in the World of Ice and Fire book, with one Targaryen jumping onto the others’ mid-flight, and now I need to see it happen.