The Game of Thrones cast interviews are piling up with ONE DAY (!) left to the premiere so let’s cut the small talk and get right to it!
First up:
Peter Dinklage talks to Entertainment Weekly in a great new article about Tyrion’s motives in season 5, and whether he thinks Tyrion will ever wind up on the Iron Throne. (Check out the whole interview at EW.) He also names his all-time favorite scene and it’s something of a surprising choice- the much-debated Orson Lannister beetle-smashing scene from “The Mountain and the Viper.” Peter’s thoughts on it:
I loved the scene with [Nikolaj Coster-Waldau in season 4] when we’re talking about our cousin. There’s so much in the show that’s necessary to push the story forward because everybody is just trying to stay alive. And so many of those scenes last year in the cell really defined all these different relationships in Tyrion’s life. I loved the lines about their cousin, who’s a bit thick and smashing the beetles. Because it was about something from their past. It’s like Tyrion’s in shock, or something. He doesn’t know why he’s telling that story and he just wants to know what it was about, and what life is about, and it had such an abstract non-f–king King’s Landing feel to it. It was such a fresh breath. I loved that monologue. Whether I serviced it or not is a matter of opinion.
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau appeared on Live with Kelly and Michael yesterday, charming the audience with tales of growing up in a teeny-tiny town in Denmark, hitting the gym with Toby Sebastian, and what TV show is he obsessed with.. Nikolaj turns up 27 minutes into the video.
Sophie Turner is in the Telegraph talking about growing about in the country, her teen life with dating and love of fashion, and the in and outs of filming. Turner talks about her parents becoming aware of the occasionally frightening scenes Sophie would be filming, such as the attempted rape in the riot scene. When asked if they were shocked, Sophie says:
I think in the beginning they were – there were so many sex scenes in the first series – but after that they got used to it. They knew it was a good-quality show. If it hadn’t been I don’t think they would have been happy. But they appreciated that it was all necessary.
Sophie says “I think the stunt guy felt worse than I did” when it came to the difficult scenes. And in a funny bit-
Amusingly, Turner says, her mother still sat her down aged 16 to talk about sex. ‘I said, this isn’t necessary, I know everything. I know every single thing that a person can do – and more. The show is very inventive.’
In the L.A. Times, Lena Headey discusses Cersei’s thoughts behind her life and choices, like confessing her affair with Jaime to Tywin and her character’s dedicated love of Joffrey. Of Cersei existing in a male-dominated world, the actress says:
She feels very much like she’s stuck. I don’t think she knows why, because it’s all she’s known. I think she envies her brothers, even Tyrion, because he’s just given more respect for a guy, and undoubtedly Jaime is. I think that’s part of her rebellion with her father with that conversation. “This is the only thing I can do to make you give me some actual genuine attention for more than four seconds.
As for where Cersei and Jaime are headed this season, Headey says:
They’re not in the best of places. I think the honeymoon period is really over. They’re at that point of having been together for a couple of years now, and there’ve been a few too many trips to IKEA, you know what I mean?
Gwendoline Christie is in the new edition of Style discussing her lengthy training for the epic Brienne-Hound fight last season, her obsessions with fashion, growing up tall and the similarites between her and her character.
I’d read the book first, and I hadn’t come across a character like that before which so thoroughly explored the inner life of a very tall woman who felt marginalized from society just because of the way she looked. That is pretty much how I grew up feeling. Things have changed hugely over the last 10 years in terms of acceptance, and the Internet has broadened our frame of reference enormously, but when I was at drama school 15 years ago, things were still very homogenized in terms of what you saw on screen: average height, pretty, very, very slim. That was it, really. Convention would bring you work, because if you looked conventional, you could be more interesting in your acting choices. It wasn’t the other way round.
Of beauty conventions and her relationship with the ideas of it:
I was 12 when I saw On the Waterfront, and it electrified me. I wanted to go through some kind of transformative process. And because I’ve always been so conscious of my height, I’ve always been consciously feminized. Because if you’re always told you’re not attractive, you go the other way when you have the liberty and the means, to make yourself as conventionally attractive as you can. Of course, a classic archetype of that is Monroe, who I’ve always been fascinated by. But in answer to your question: I was born 36 years ago and I grew up in the countryside with a certain set of preconceptions about the way women should look, so when I look at Brienne, I don’t want to feel shocked by how different I look, but that still happens, because I don’t always feel comfortable immediately. And it was even harder in the beginning because I didn’t know if the show was going to work, if my performance would work, or if playing that part would create other opportunities for me.
Gwendoline says she’d love to play “a very destructive narcissistic character,” a character that’s a “sexual predator, a lawyer, a politician, a salacious journalist,” and notes that she’d especially like to work with directors Paul Thomas Anderson, Christopher Nolan, Jane Campion and David Lynch.
Dunk the Lunk!
Thick as a castle wall!
I always thought the backlash to the “beetles” dialogue was insanely over-the-top, though it would be nowhere near my favourite scene of the show.
God, I hated that Tyrion seen about the beetles and the cousin. It went on far too long IMO. By the way, here’s a terrific new Q&A with Carice – she mentions Mel’s reasons for wanting to get Jonny boy in the sack: http://www.thenational.ae/arts-lifestyle/television/game-of-thrones-qa-with-carice-van-houten
Sean C.,
If the scene were placed somewhere else in the episode or season, it wouldn’t have been as much as an issue, but I think it killed the momentum leading into the duel and a lot of people felt like that time could have been better used to reinforce Jaime and Tyrion’s relationship- about to be split up- or even cover Tysha somehow- making it reasonable for Tysha to be brought up in the finale. (Since they couldn’t bring her up in the finale after not really discussing her for years.) Or they could have spent time with Oberyn, about to die.
The scene felt rather masturbatory, in the writer and the actorly sense. Like, I’m glad they enjoyed it but it didn’t do a whole lot to push the story forward and it slowed down the duel.
Sue the Fury,
I think the speech has good sentiments but you could probably cut out half of the dialogue and still get tthe same effect. It doesn’t really bother me, but I do wish it were trimmed down.
Sue the Fury,
What momentum? It’s not like all the scenes were building to the duel, they were wholly unconnected. And the episode had already had very slow scenes, like the Missendei-Grey Worm stuff.
Neither do I understand the complaint that it didn’t push the story forward. Tons of scenes in the show don’t do that. Like almost every conversation in King’s Landing in Season 3, which most people enjoyed very much.
Sean C.,
I rather enjoyed the beetles monologue although it is easy to criticize given that it didn’t lead into something darker between Jaime and Tyrion. But that is water under the bridge. It made sense given the context of the show…an extended metaphor of the pathos of Westeros existence, so to speak. In another light, I can’t help but think that the scribe of the monologue didn’t have a certain highly-GoT-critical author of “Ender’s Game” in mind for Orson. A bit of insider jibjab, perhaps? 🙂
It was a horribly & self consciously acted monologue about the beetles & retarded cousin. It kind of demonstrated to me why I think that actor and character is overrated. He loves the sound of his own voice. I wish he was off this season, not Brandon Stark. We now have to endure his self congratulatory drunken monologues on the road to Daenerys. I’d rather see what Bloodraven’s all about, frankly.
Well apparently
makes it to S6. Damn!
The beetle scene reinforced the relationship between Jaime and Tyrion. ImO. It gave us a glimpse into their past, their shared memories, being part of the Lannister family, their relationship etc. It showed us Jaime spending the last moments before the trial with Tyrion because he couldn’t leave him alone, thus reinforcing their relationship. And it also spoke of the arbitrary of life and death. Which I think it was a nice touch. Personally I liked the scene.
The beetle scene felt awkward for me, and didn’t really come across as particularly meaningful, or even genuine.
My main problem with it really is that to me it was a scene that just didn’t work, and therefore a waste of screen time. If the time had been spent with Tyrion and Jaime talking about past and present troubles in love, say, it could have made it more possible to include some later conversations that the finale missed out on. (I think a Tysha tie in could have been made logically, given Shay’s recent betrayal.) Of course really my ideal version would have been an hour and a half finale- they just had so much great material. (I did very much enjoy the season overall- I just was so looking forward to seeing Peter’s performance of a certain argument).
Inb4 book purists say the Tysha scene would been his favorite if they shot it.
Pigeon,
Not sure why anyone would have thought otherwise.
Sean C.,
Not sure why anyone assumes anything, for that matter.
It made me very happy to hear that NCW is a Louie fan. That show is really one of kind. I’m sure the fact that Louie has complete creative control over it helps immensely.
I can relate to Lena’s IKEA comment haha. Its all too real.
Always enjoy hearing from Gwendoline. Imho, her portrayal of Brienne is fantastic.
Happy 1 day ! (GoT eve?)
The lack of Tysha in the finale was due to the decision to make Shae love Tyrion.
Could they have made Tysha work? Yes if they replaced the beetle dialogue with Tyrion thanking Jaime for the kindness he never did.
However, I understand why they removed it. They spent so much time developing Tyrion and Shae’s relationship and they didn’t want Tysha distracting from it.
It would seem weird if Tyrion just killed Shae, and then moved on to asking about Tysha in the show. He did that in the books because Tysha was the only woman who truly loved him.
In the show thi is not the case as Shae clearly loves him
I think the beetles set up a good sense of dread before the duel. It’s just a guy trying to find meaning before his fate is decided. If he can make sense of the beetles, then maybe he can believe that there is some sense to the universe, and maybe justice really will prevail. I think it was mostly frustrating to book readers who were just really eager to get to the duel, and then in retrospect once the season was over, to people looking for a place where Tysha could have been shoehorned in.
Personally, I thought the beetles scene was excellent. Has an almost philisophical air to it with the two Lannister brothers considering why people live and die and, ultimately, not knowing why. Thought it was the perfect bit of reflection before the subsequent fight in which more death ensues.
The critics who haven’t read the books loved the beetle monologue, if I remember correctly. I really understand the meaning of it, and I don’t think it went on for too long. The mistake wasn’t the beetle scene, it was not having another scene with Tyrion and Oberyn earlier in the episode. Had that happened, some of the backlash would have lessened.
Elio & Linda ( not surprisingly ) bash the show for changes
http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Season_5_Early_Impressions
I bet they were ecstatic they found a review that had something negative to say lol.
It’s funny that they felt a need to back up there purism with something GRRM said one time in an interview that happened 2 years ago
KrakenDaughter,
Considering they opine that these may go down as the best first four episodes of any season, it’s a bit much to bash them just because they debate and criticize some of the changes. Is any criticism of the writers’ adaptation choices verboten?
Lena and Gwendoline are totally my fem idols. Love the attitudes towards life as well as the fashion sense of both of them.
Sean C.,
The way they phrased it tells me they don’t share the same opinion.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I think the almost all the critics liked the scene, even the book readers.
I am somewhat confused by their take, to be honest. It reads as a rather negative review throughout and then suddenly ends concluding that these 4 episodes may be the show’s best opening yet. Weird.
Sue the Fury,
There is a typo in your bio
Occasionally known as a pirate and game show loser, Sue is a recent college (graduate?) who can be found somewhere in the American midwest, scribbling in notebooks and chasing after her offspring.
http://watchersonthewall.com/fury/
Sean C.,
Elio is always, at least from what I’ve seen, infinitely more measured/diplomatic in his criticism. Lindaaaa already commented elsewhere Elio put it more generously than she would have, which makes perfect sense, especially given her already well-known disdain for what they’ve done with Dorne in the show dating back to the casting announcement at SDCC. Moreover, just a week ago she posted the following observations:
“Dorne is a pathetic mess on the show. Ellaria acts like Obara, and so does Obara. Nym and Tyene are pointless wastes of time that come across as completely one-note and vapid.
No, they are a not the most fleshed-out characters in the books either, but that’s why its so baffling that they’d cast three of them, make them even more samey-samey AND make Ellaria act the same as well.
Oh well, they can go in the same bucket as Cersei and Margaery: fucking annoyingly written and poorly acted characters that need to die, asap.”
So, Elio’s review taken by itself is reasonable, imo. It’s his opinion, he certainly has a right to it, and seems to write from the perspective of trying to take the bigger picture into consideration, while critiquing that which he does not like.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
What I want to know, is how did she get all of that from the one short scene the sand snakes are apparently in?
Mr Fixit,
It’s classic passive aggressive Elio. You know he wants to rage like Linda, but he tries his best to be civil.
As far as the Jamie and Tyrion scene, I enjoyed it for a variety of reasons. There was the philosophical note, as someone already mentioned, but I also enjoyed seeing those two characters reminiscing about a moment in their childhoods the way siblings sometimes do. There was a simplicity and kind of sweetness to it…almost, dare I say it, a normalcy to it. That said, I do think it could have been trimmed just a little, and it would have worked even better. No, that’s not so they could fit something else in, but just because, imo, it went on just a teeny bit too long.
How can anyone claim Cersei is poorly acted…. Lena has MADE that character so much more than the one note psychopath she was in the books
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I personally think Elio and Linda have perfected a good cop-bad cop routine, but in all honesty I’d say they’re not that different. I’ve watched/listened/read a bunch of their reviews/thoughts and they almost never disagree on anything of import. Elio is a lot more diplomatic and civil though, which counts for something I guess.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I’d like to see a face-to-face between Linda and Lena Headey. I wonder if Linda would diss her to her face the same way she does on the internet? I can’t believe she still gets invited to events like the premier.
Mr Fixit,
They both don’t believe that Robert raped Cersei.
HelloThere,
Yeah, it’s pretty silly and nerdy (in a bad way) when people conflate an actor and their character. Disliking the show’s take on Cersei and Margaery is one thing; I don’t share that view, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. However, to constantly rag and whine how Lena and Natalie are terrible actresses… that’s just nonsense and reveals some people’s irrational need to “objectivize” the subjective: ‘it’s not that I don’t like the portrayal, it’s that it is provably bad’ which, I suppose, they think lends their nerdrage a veneer of objectivity.
Turncloak,
I think it’s interesting that essentially the only scene where Tysha is mentioned is the one that introduces Shae. I haven’t read the books so don’t know if that actually happens on the page, but it proved a shrewd way to establish the precedent for the danger that would meet Tyrion and Shae as lovers. In this scene, and through the development of the loving relationship that follows, the showrunners essentially invested all of the importance of Tysha in Shae, making a character, who could by definition only appear in exposition, superfluous.
Mr Fixit,
Shes over compensating because lena is consistently praised for making Cersei a better character, which probably pisses her off. Shes obviosuly gonna also hate this season considerinh how 99% of thr reviewers glorify the cuts and changes in thewe four episodes
Turncloak,
A comment to the point of things. In addition the Tysha ommision makes Shaes overall presence in Tyrions life and consequently her death more dramatic. In the second episode of S4 Tyrion tried rather brutally to avert Shaes love. She immediately realised that he did it out of fear and tried in vain to find some common ground. But Tyrion’s response was stubborn and humiliating, a true Lannister behaviour in a moment of crisis. That infuriates Shae and leads her to Tywin’s hands. In my eyes the whole thing failed because Tyrion reacted hastily, under pressure and not estimating the consequenses of his action. It is the beginning of his downfall in a true Lannister manner. The last scene between them becomes all the more dramatic because their love has irreparably been crushed by the maelstrom of events. It is this desperate feeling of no return and it worked well for both Shae and Tyrion. A further analysis of a past love it would have diminished the Tyrion-Shae story with which we as viewers were so well accustomed and burden Tyrions finale with unnecessary dramaturgy to the verge of rendering to a soap opera.
Yivo,
It would appear she’s clairvoyant.
dothrakian raven,
Well said.
Yivo,
And their argument seems to boil down to “bad people can’t be genuinely raped.” It’s disgusting.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah, it’s a wonder they still get their privileged access, screeners, the whole thing. I don’t say this because they are critical of the show; it’d be wrong to give these things only to those who love GoT – censorship of the worst kind. But Linda constantly uses exceedingly foul language when talking about people involved with the production – idiots, hacks, don’t have a clue; it’s highly unprofessional.
I think I forget sometimes that I love Tyrion so much… but I don’t think I’d really like Peter very much, beyond him as an excellent actor.
HATE the beetle scene (understand the idea of babbling and terror before the contest – still hate the scene.
Peter is also a PETA person that thinks horses shouldn’t be ridden, animals shouldn’t be eaten and promotes PETA values… and that organisation is 100% against the idea of pets too. Boo….
I agree about the sense of dread. I was watching this episode again on HBO’s rerun this week, and once again, that vague sense of foreboding hit me as Tyrion goes on and on about his cousin and Jaime just sits there, unable to say or do anything, powerless. That said, I am still not 100% fond or sure of this scene. I wish it had been something about their shared younger days in Casterly Rock, and perhaps about Tywin’s treatment of them.
dothrakian raven
I agree about this “Tysha” omission. I’m a show watcher, and muddying the issue with Tysha would definitely not have worked for me. The breakdown of Tyrion and Shae’s relationship is quite well-done in Season 4 and it’s actually painful to watch (that is, if one is actually watching it and not continuously expecting something else). The end result is tragic and leads extremely well into Tywin’s death, in my opinion.
wtf!!!
where are the episode titles for 8-10????
That’s really what it is. Linda herself has an internal good cop, bad cop routine going on if you compare her appearances with Elio to her batshit tumblr.
Mr Fixit,
The lack of professionalism is what gets me. There are a variety of ways of expressing one’s discontent with, disagreement about, even abject loathing of something whilst still maintaining a hint of decency/professionalism. Elio seems to get that. Linda does not. I understand GRRM is a personal friend, so in some ways both of them may feel like they have to defend him, but Elio’s critiques don’t bother me, even if I don’t agree (and, of course, I don’t know yet, because I haven’t seen the episodes), simply by virtue of the way he expresses himself, especially in contrast to his counterpart.
Yivo,
I think slimchicken had a good answer to your question…hahaha.
The beetle scene is one of my favorite scenes of dialogue in the entire series tbh. I guess a lot of people have a problem with it because it’s not action-packed or it’s not in the book series, but I think it gives us a rare look into who Tyrion (maybe not book Tyrion, but this is the television series) is outside of his witty, sarcastic remarks. It’s also very universally thought-provoking and interpretive. Also, I don’t at all see how it killed any momentum leading up to the trial. The transition from the end of this really interesting moment into the bells ringing and Tyrion entering the arena was superb.
It might be nice to do a bit more research before you say stuff like this 🙂 Plenty of PETA officers have animals. They just encourage that you rescue animals rather than buy them from breeders or mills.
You don’t like Peter because he doesn’t think eating animals is healthy or humane? Interesting….
I liked the monologue and, more importantly, greatly appreciate the show’s decision to have Tyrion & Jaime part on good terms.
dob,
I don’t think we learned last season’s final few episode titles until well into the season, if I recall correctly.
JTargs,
I guess his feelings about animal cruelty aren’t that strong seeing as they filmed in a bull ring in Osuna this season!
Sean C.,
Yeah, it was through some Russian website and they were only confirmed by the HBO schedule weeks after that.
JTargs,
Crap, I was trying to avoid getting into this, but I will say this much…
If PETA was just about encouraging “that you rescue animals rather than buy them from breeders or mills,” I’d have no problem with them whatsoever. However, if you scratch beneath the surface, you will see PETA actually encourages the killing of some animals…feral cats, for instance. It has also been documented some representatives of PETA have been known to take animals under the guise of finding them homes, only to turn around and kill them. A quick google search will bring up a lot of evidence of these sorts of things. I’ve been a vegetarian for over 20 years (not vegan, just vegetarian) and have helped run a no-kill animals rescue program. I am a big proponent of kindness to/humane treatment of animals, but after learning about some of the dark underbelly of what PETA encourages, I decided any money or time I spent in that arena would go to organizations which were no-kill, and am only writing this lil tirade in hopes of informing people who may not have all the pertinent facts about some of what PETA does.
If someone deems this to off-topic and feels it should be deleted, I totally understand.
Some new season 5 footage in this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7gakTLbC_4
Sean C.,
Looking it up now, it seems we got them 2 days before the premiere
http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/03/game-of-thrones-episode-408-410-episode.html
JTargs,
Oh gosh.. Not GoT related. But I remember as a teen 20 years ago when PETA people were trying to recruit me by bragging about releasing chickens to starve into the wild… feel free to do research of your own. Animal Welfare versus Animal Rights. They haven’t changed. I’m a former Animal Cruelty Investigator BTW… and Peter has a dog I believe. The irony is not lost on me…
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
You rock. My fave easy video is Penn and Teller on those guys… although it’s very pro meat eating, it still lightens a scary topic. I’m so afraid someday I won’t be allowed to own pets because of extreme hate groups…
Brona,
“Red Weddingesque shocks” is a bit of a silly overstatement. I don’t think anything can rival that unless they really go off the deep end.
Some of that hits on one of my worries for this season. I hope the show doesn’t feel as though it HAS to kill characters now as the viewers expect it. If it makes sense then fine but it would be worrying if they had some sort of quota they had to fill per season. I’d happily go a whole season without anyone dying as long as the story is told well!
WTF!!!
Where are the episode descriptions/synopses for 4-10????
(The legit ones, of course)
Eek! Too late to fix it, but I meant “too off-topic,” not “to off-topic.”
TheTouchOfFrost,
I’ve wondered about the “red weddingesque” statements, too, but I think (hope) that may just be being used as a synonym for “jaw-dropping, mind-boggling wtf just happened” moments.
Messy Justin Massey,
We don’t usually get those before the season starts.
It simply went on too long, that was my main complaint. If they’d hacked out a quarter of it, that would have been perfect.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
If
that’s bigger than the Red Wedding, IMO. I certainly was more devastated when I first read the
scene than I was when I read the Red Wedding.
Greenjones,
I’ve been checking that russian site daily hoping that they’ll release the episode titles in advance like last year. They’ve only posted the episodes titles for 1-8 and episodes 8-10 are still titleless.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
This. Not that I liked the fact that
Okay, I already expected that. Just thought we’d maybe get one more through SpoilerTV before the season starts – but now I’ll simply wait for tomorrow and the next weeks 🙂
KG,
That beetle scene was awesome from being a fan of films. The acting was really good in that scene, you are probably one of the assholes who thinks NOT IN THE BOOK=BAD ACTINGS EWWWW.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It could be and I guess that the cast (if they’ve not read the books or aren’t fans like us) would assume that
Almost 1 day away from season 5’s premiere how cool is that!??? SQUEEEE (Well, 1 day and 11 hours for me, that’s almost 1 day too).
Tyrion Pimpslap,
You’re right, that is a huge moment, and could certainly be considered red weddingesque in terms of how incredibly fucked up it is. I guess I forget about the impact of it because
Pigeon,
I think Jon is more responsible for his
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
“Mostly dead is slightly alive” is good….
Stark Fan,
Not at all. But even good acting palls once the idea has been run into the ground, buried, dug up, and run back into the ground again.
You sound like someone who has trouble reading a cereal box.
Wasn’t that stuff about Peter Dinklage being into PETA a hoax or from a parody news site or something? I feel like we covered this before.
Lady Wolfsbane,
KG,
You sound like a little kid with no attention span who only wants to watch a fight scene. You probably didn’t like the fight scene because it didn’t have any lightsabers.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Oh, heck no, I agree with you they had their own reasons for doing it. But me, as a poor, uneducated random peon at the Wall – I’d have shook their hand afterwards…
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Sorry to go back to this, but this grates at me a lot. Yes, they deserve to get screeners (biggest ASOIAF fansite), but the disdain and the arrogance they display after attending premieres is quite frankly atrocious. This year they moaned that they were tired, and their attention wandered during the episode.
Now it’s fair enough to not like the premiere episode. But if I were invited to a premiere I would be so excited, and captivated by the experience, no matter how poor the episode was. It actually upsets me that they take seats away from people who would really appreciate them. I can only presume it’s their personal connection that gets them invited back, because the way they treat the show, and it’s staff, is down-right shameful.
It still would not have been “reasonable” as it would have violated a most basic rule of cinema: show, don’t tell. To bring up Tysha, the series would have had to show Tysha: otherwise, she’s just a name. People remember faces; they remember basic relationships (e.g., Tyrion and Daddy don’t get along); they do not remember specifics such as names or the list of reasons why Tyrion & Daddy do not get along.
Without an extensive flashback in Series 4, bringing up Tysha would simply have confused the audience who would not have remember who she was or how this affected Tyrion & Tywin’s relationship because the audience never saw it. They are paying $$$ to be shown the important plot and character points, so the criticism would have been entirely justified. Instead, the series showed them several other reasons why Tyrion would want to kill Tywin that also fit in with the plots and stories happening at that time: and as audiences remember the general emotions (Daddy wishes that Tyrion was dead; Son deeply resents Father’s lack of love), they had seen what they needed to see. But they never would have heard what they needed to hear, and it would have angered them that the storytellers did that: after all, the people paying for HBO subscriptions are not allowed to make those mistakes in their jobs, and they hold TV showrunners to the same standards as they are held.
Lady Wolfsbane,
??? How did you get that. Jon did NOT
Moreover, Jon was given the choice of defending the Wall against Ramsay OR fulfilling terms had had no power to fulfill. Jon did not have Arya. Jon had no idea who or what “Reek” was supposed to be. Jon had not authority to turn over Selyse, either figuratively or literally. Given Westerosian morality, Jon has moral duty to defend guests, and Selyse might have been an unwelcome guest, but she was still a guest. Moreover, Selyse’s men almost certainly would have eradicated the Watch had Jon tried to turn her over. As for turning over Melisandre, well, good luck on that: and Jon’s smart enough to know that.
Conversely, Jon had to have enough information about Ramsay to know that should Ramsay take the Wall, then Ramsay would carry out his threat to kill every Crow there in order to retrieve Arya and who/whatever “Reek” was.
So, Jon did the best thing possible to fulfill all of his vows. He successfully organized a counter-offensive defense of Castle Black that presumably would take place far enough away that if they fell, then the Castle could make other defensive plans. He did this with Wildlings and volunteers from the Watch so that he didn’t force anyone to break their vows who could not puzzle through the quandary. (Like, say, Bowen Marsh, who makes the term “thick as a brick” insulting to bricks everywhere.) And he leaves Selyse’s troops out of it completely, so he’s not taking anybody’s side: it’s just him vs. Ramsay at that point.
The problem here is that you are trying to enforce a black-and-white judgement on something that GRRM deliberately set up as very gray. Moreover, this is something that happens all the time in GRRM’s stories: to fulfill one vow, you have to break another vow, and thus every oath fulfilled is another oath broken. (Kings is a story entirely about that.)
Wimsey,
Jon’s actions after the Pink Letter are grayer in terms of his vows to the Night’s Watch, but let’s remember that Bowen didn’t suddenly come up with this plan; simply, Jon going away sped up the schedule. And the main reason for the assassination was Jon’s peace politics with the wildlings. And you know what infuriates me so much? The readers who insist that Jon wasn’t open enough about his intentions and reasons, that if he had been, Bowen Marsh would’ve understood. Are these people for real? Jon, once and again, explained the simple concept around which all of his actions revolved, and once and again Bowen Marsh refused to accept this reality. He didn’t even try to justify it. What simple concept, what reality? In the second season five trailer, Jon explains it clearly and succinctly, as he repeatedly did in ADWD:
In other words, even if, as Marsh, you believe the wildlings are all bloody savages that cannot be trusted, the reasonable thing to do would still be to let them south of the Wall, if only because if you don’t they will enlarge the wight army of the White Walkers.
Wimsey,
this exactly.
When I watched the beetle scene it felt like somthing that someone who is in shock and about to basically be sentenced would talk about. You wouldnt talk about something related to the duel, you would want to avoid the subject and think of something abstract and distance yourself from reality. The scene actually made me feel how nervous tyrion was, it captured the essence of someone thinking they are about to die and now they will never do the most trivial of things like solve the mystery of why the beetles were smashed. At the same time it was Tyrion reminiscing about his life in general and how many things he was never going to get to do. The scene also went on just long enough to build up the tension because we all knew what was about to happen but we wanted Tyrion to just keep telling the story so he wouldnt go to his death. I read the books and the scene made me feel nervous and for the entire scene I forgot that Tyrion would actually survive. I think it perfectly captured his emotions at that time and what anyone’s emotions would be.
Put the handbags down and walk away , you two!
TheTouchOfFrost,
D&D mentioned in an interview recently (red carpet) that they think the whole killing characters thing is overhyped. They said they don’t kill just for shock value, and they seemed a bit tired of the question.
I think Sophie is just saying stuff because she doesn’t really know what else to say, lol.
Luka Nieto,
The Feldman essays do a great job of giving us Bowen’s motivations. It’s more nuanced than you think. It gives you insight into what was going through Bowen’s head during the reveal of the Pink Letter. What’s also awesome about Feldman’s essays is that he clearly points out Jon’s flaws as a ruler. This is a particular theme in ADWD. It is damn difficult having power.
Suggest giving them a look as they are a great read.
1) https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-i-jons-noble-heart-and-greater-duty/
2) https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-ii-jons-support-for-stannis/
3) https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/other-wars-part-iii-the-mance-mission/
4) https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/others-wars-part-iv-people-wanting-help/
5) https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/other-wars-part-v-the-peace-the-pink-letter-and-the-shieldhall-speech/
6) https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/other-wars-part-vi-three-questions-about-jons-future/
Westeros.org gave their season 5 impressions. It’s about what you would expect them to say though they do give some insight as to something I didn’t know would happen.
Apparently there will be
. I wonder what the other two are?
Here’s there review: http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Features/Entry/Season_5_Early_Impressions
Turncloak,
HelloThere,
That’s slightly reassuring. It does seem to have become a bit of a sterotype of the show.
Luka Nieto,
Thanks! Gotta love Barristan. I hope he
Turncloak,
Luka Nieto,
Thanks, Luka, for the warning in your spoiler. As soon as I saw it, I stopped reading and re-covered the spoiler.
I inadvertently found out about something which happens in the first episode by uncovering a spoiler not realizing it was specific information about that episode, as opposed to a book-spoiler. I was pretty bummed.
Wimsey,
We’ve already agreed to disagree on this one I thought? I’ll edit this and and something more to this after work…
Luka Nieto,
I don’t think the reading comprehension one is necessary, I mean really? I don’t think Bowen March is justified. I do think there’s a good expectation for the Night’s Watch to try to stop Jon’s actions in some way. Again, I will try to add to this later..
KrakenDaughter,
The Sand Snakes probably will suck though so Westeros is most likely right about that. Westeros.org will blame the writers but I will blame the general concept of them for why they come across as cheesy on the show. They should have ditched the Sand Snakes and included Arianne but of course they had go for the cool kick ass warrior sisters. And before you label me sexist, I would consider the Sand Brothers just as lame. A character like Arianne would translate better to TV and make for far better storytelling possibilities than gimmicky characters like the Sand Snakes. The casting for them seems pretty weak too which isn’t going to help matters.
Arianne is Cersei-light, she isn’t needed.
I am not a bookreader. I enjoyed the beetles scene. That was where Tyrion’s head was at that particular time.
JamesL,
I am absolutely on the other side of this. I really look forward to seeing the Sand Snakes onscreen, and I’m intrigued by the casting. In the books, I was also much more interested by them than I was by Arianne. I found her to be a little too much like the heir who thinks their parents are going to screw them out of their inheritance, so they get angry and try to cause problems. The one thing I did like about Arianne had nothing to do with her, but with Dornish law of inheritance.
Luka Nieto,
I think I know why
Welp, it looks like Game of Thrones is already having piracy issues and it’s premiere still hasn’t even aired yet. That’s a shame
Turncloak,
I’d like you all to stop basically advertising for these people, okay? I’d appreciate it if you guys stopped posting screener spoilers.
Sue the Fury,
Sorry, please delete my comment if necessary
Yeah… count me as one who is tired of all these “shocking” death. I honestly don’t watch a show to watch people being killed. I understand the need to kill a character from time to time since it makes their fate uncertain and the sense of danger is more palpable. That said I have the feeling that D&D think they have a quota unexpected deaths to fill (I.e. Pyp and Grenn)
Josla,
Had Pyp and Grenn not died, there would have been no NW casualties in an episode that was dedicated to the battle. Someone the audience was connected to had to die, and it had nothing to do with simple shock value.
Sunday Times (UK) readers’ poll for favourite characters from the GoT show, unfortunately it’s behind a paywall so no link, and they don’t give a complete listing but:
1. 42.81% Tyrion
2. 20.13% Daenerys
3. 11.29% Arya
Ned Stark made the top 10 too.
Some others
3.42% Brienne
1.09% Cersei
0.71% Sansa
< 1% Littlefinger and Varys
Theon got just 2 votes!
Meh, work is crazy, and I don’t think anyone is much going to care on D-Day what my night-shift opinions are. But what I will simply continue to defend is….
I can stretch that the Night’s Watch should and can follow a
I might even bend so far as to say going to Winterfell might be the right thing to do – in the grand scheme of things. So what? As COMMANDER of the Night’s Watch,
to say what Jon said, the way he said it was just plain stupid. Stupider than Robb breaking his vow, at least he had teenage hormones to blame… 😉
Stark Fan,
Nice try 🙂 But you are going to need much, much better insults if you plan on starting fights around here. Like Ser Hugh of the Vale, you have no business riding in this company.
smh!
ep 5 & 6 are out!
this is messed up 4 hbo.
Was at the premiere in Oslo (Norway) yesterday! It was an exlusive HBO nordic thing, for just one night 🙂 Stood in line for 3 hours to get it. Anyway, got to sit next to Kristofer Hivju! And the episode was amazing! Really envy you guys in the US for seeing those eps in imax. GoT is made for cinema…
My GF (as Cersei) with Tormund
KG,
KG, I am in agreement with you in that there is no need to resort to figurative fisticuffs [albeit you phrased it differently]. Different people will have differing opinions but it is not beyond the wit of humankind to phrase one’s opinions in a polite way. I started off as a show watcher and then read the books (well they had some of the Roy Dotrice readings on YouTube – I’m not sure if that was with the agreement of GRRM’s publishers or not – so some of the books listened to rather than read). ADWD I got a REAL book out of the library and read it; though to be honest it is very difficult to get the ASOIAF books from my local public library. Mr Dotrice’s “Bryeen” for “Brienne” irritates me somewhat. But anyway, I am am to speed now and can say I appreciate both show and books in their different ways. You do get more back story setting the events in context in the books; my heart sank when there was the x-z-est description of a feast (though Medieval feasts were long and sumptuous events in reality to be fair to GRRM). In the show I thought was the “Pod the Stud” scene really necessary? (Of course book Pod is much younger than TV Pod).
Anyway to get back on point, I hope this site continues to be one where (for the most part) people with varying views continue to express their differing views in a polite manner.
All of this. This exactly how I felt about this scene. Well said.
Turncloak,
Also to go off on a bit of a tangent, I’m assuming Daario is still away in “Yunkai”? This may be the season that the
speculation is put to bed. Although I must admit that after being critical of the theory, I have warmed to it a bit (possibly as
) as this vid does make a good case for it
We shall see, we shall see…soon.
I agree. I’ve said before (may not have been on this site) that I disliked the 1968 version of “Far from the Madding Crowd” because I thought Julie Christie was miscast as Bathsheba Everdene (the fact book Bathsheba was raven-haired and Ms Christie is blonde didn’t help). However on the whole I liked Julie Christie as an actress (I think she’s retired now) in other things. You don’t have to hate a member of the acting profession just because they are cast in one role that you think they don’t suit. It’s true that Book Margery (thus far) is different to Show Margery but I don’t dislike Natalie Dormer’s portrayal (and I suppose it is possible Book Margery may turn out be more akin to Show Margery in the ASOIAF as yet unpublished books when they finally do hit the bookstands.
I haven’t subscribed to the Westeros site though I do read entries there occasionally (markedly less often than I visit here though). Some of the fandom there take it all VERY seriously. In a more light-hearted vein I will own up to reading the “Beautiful Males” in the show thread there from time to time.
I realise I’m coming to this discussion far too late. I just wanted to say that the two main reasons I’m not a fan of the Orson Lannitser scene is that it is (1) far too long and (2) it puts far too much attention on Tyrion. Heck Peter Dinklage has already gotten an Emmy and there’s a rather large number of actors that are playing as well as he is. I want to see more of Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, Master Aemon, Theon, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Melisandre, Davos, Selyse, Shireen, Tommen, Osha, Pycelle and so many more I probably couldn’t even think of at this moment. I just want more balance and variety. There’s been far too much Tyrion already.