Carice van Houten shared photos on Thursday, confirming the actress’s presence on the Game of Thrones set in Northern Ireland. What little we can see of the muddy location is reminiscent of the grounds of Magheramorne Quarry, where GoT films Castle Black, among other scenes.
This weekend, Los Siete Reinos provided more info about what’s happening on the set. Light spoilers and speculation ahead!
L7R’s sources report that the scene Carice is filming is a scene which she is having some sort of argument or confrontation with Davos (Liam Cunningham).
They also say that the scene takes place in one of the earlier episodes of season 6.
There’s no word yet on what the argument was about. The two characters have butted heads regularly since season 2, the Onion Knight never comfortable with her fire magic and burnings. Will Davos learn of Melisandre’s part in Shireen’s death? Or is he confronting her over some other new secret, like say, Jon’s resurrection?
Either way, the two characters are due to have it out.
Hodor!
I’d be more surprised if they didn’t fight at some point.
If it’s early in the season, I’d say the situation with Jon (whatever it is) is more likely than anything to do with Shireen (also, if Davos found out about that, he’d probably just straight-up try to kill her, not argue with her).
The closest I’ve been to it so I’m a say it anyways:)
Hodor!
Hodor!
I feel like Jon is going to be inheriting not just House Stark and all of its problems, but also Stanis’s faction and likewise his issues.
I like how she interacts with fans. Has anybody else from the cast done this sort of thing? Don’t have twitter so I’m in the dark.
Not sure if so little information warranted its own article, but I’m not bitching, happy to receive more set reports and looking forward to see S6.
Morgoth,
In the next couple of months you will beg for this kind of news.. 🙂
Morgoth,
Dude it’s our website. We could open up a post about the weather if we wanted to.
i think its about shireen’s death and jon’s ressurection….
Sue the Fury,
Well, the weather report’s easy: Winter is coming ?
Stirring things,
I admit, I luaghed.
Yeah, right. No need to be dickish about it, I think I wasn’t being rude or anything. I even said I wasn’t trying to bitch. But whatever, Sue.
Perhaps he will try to kill her…but I bet the argument will encourage Mel to make a life-giving decision after her past life-taking decisions. Davos is probably due to exit CB after that, regardless of the outcome.
A forecast of snow in Kings Landing? Cool!
I could see this happening in the very first episode. Would like to see these characters branching out as soon as possible. More individual focus in different arcs. It hurts to think about how sidelined Davos got in season 5.
Or maybe they both stay right where they are and get killed by White Walkers, who knows. Is it April yet?
Stirring things,
Correction: Winter has already arrived.
Perhaps Sue does need to post the weather for those who know nothing 🙂
Morgoth,
Nice tactic, make a “bitchy” statement about a fairly interesting post and then claim you’re not “bitching.” At the main admin no less! You’re going to have a rough early 2016 my sweet summer snarker! But whatever. Whatever. What; Everrrrrrrr
Well, that sounds like your normal conversation between Davos and Melisandre ! ^^
All I can say is I’m glad Carice and Liam get to share more scenes together, they really work great with one another and have huge chemistry !
If it’s truly early on in the season, how about a conversation about Stannis, Azor Ahai, etc, which leads to the realization that he was the wrong man?
Then Jon v2.0 in 3….2….1….
It will be interesting to watch them without Stannis. For the first time.
Someone posted possible leaked scripts for Episodes 1&2 awhile back on one of the comment sections here. A lot of which involved melisandre. Was that shown to be a hoax? I can’t even find them anymore but could have some insight on this Melisandre/Davis debacle
Khal Daniel,
It is fake.
Maybe it has been explained before and I missed it, but how on earth Los siete reinos get to find all these things out? I mean I get it when they were filming in Spain, but on set in N. Ireland, how do they do it and why do we accept it as accurate or even possible?
Why? We should be getting the HBO Year Ender in a couple weeks, which should have Season 6 footage and then January/February the trailer.
I sadly expect Ser Davos to die this season. I hope I’m wrong but what use has he left? Anyone major who has no use to the story is dead. I can’t see Davos siding with Jon after he refused to let the wildlings and the night’s watch fight for Stannis. He might blame Jon a little for Stannis’ death. Without Stannis, where does Davos go? Although he was taught to read…that could come in handy sometime. Might be it he takes old Sam’s place at the wall.
Dunno.
Anyway, April cannot come fast enough.
You know it’s a slow news day when two characters who don’t like each other are reported to have a scene where they argue about something.
Davos:
And then he stabs her.
Ygritte,
Our winter hasnt started yet in the U.S. I think it normally starts around Dec. 22nd
The same way I find out information when I live in USA and not in Northern Ireland, basically. We have sources in those area and so do they. L7R has been around for years and are trustworthy. You can gauge a webite’s trustworthiness by their track record and L7R has proven their consistency.
Morgoth,
Make a dickish comment, you get a dickish response. Them’s the breaks. 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
a trailer in January and then one more later, its nice but nowhere near the volume of spoilers and casting news we got this past months.
Perhaps Stannis lost the battle because Shireen wasn’t his daughter, but Davos’s.
That would give them something to disagree on.
Sue the Fury,
I guess you have a point there… To be honest, I thought you were based in the UK!
Amen. I love their interactions, in the books and show. What great portrayals by both actors!
Cathair,
I hope you’re wrong too! I love Davos’ character. I think there’s been enough investment in him as a character to *hope* for more of a role for him. Hand of the King, maybe, at the end of it all? Maybe even a happy ending. And butterflies and rainbows. Yup. Seems likely. :/
Well, despite his suspicions, Davos can’t prove that she did anything to Shireen so he’s unlikely to harm her.
I expect him to discover the truth about what happened to Shireen further down the line. There’s got to be a revelation moment, e.g. he encounters one of the sell-swords who witnessed Shireen’s death. And then he’ll seek revenge.
In the meantime, I think he’ll follow Jon in seeking revenge against the Boltons. As well as having no proof that the Boltons didn’t kill Shireen, he’s under the impression that they killed Stannis too. They did destroy his army, at least, so it’s not like he’s totally misguided in wanting to see the Boltons defeated.
Plus, if Melisandre is going to start declaring Jon Snow to be Azor Ahai, after having championed Stannis and led him down the wrong path, then I’m sure Davos will have quite a lot to say about that.
That’s another reason why I think he’ll stick with Jon. He won’t want to see Melisandre lead another good man to his destruction.
Alternatively, though, might they have Davos make an attempt on Melisandre’s life then decide to take the black as punishment? Therefore leaving Davos as a point of view character at The Wall while Jon, Melisandre and the Wildlings go off to battle for the North?
Forgive me if anything I’ve written has already been disproved by any of the spoilers. I’ve tried to avoid as many of the major spoilers as possible, while still trying to enjoy updates and speculation.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Interesting idea about him taking the black, but I think he’s got a family. Would he leave them? Will there even be a Watch to join, at the end?
Sue the Fury,
Sue while we’re talking whether, northern Ireland had a month’s worth of rain in the last 24 hours any chance you can check with HBO if this has caused them problems?
Jack Bauer 24,
But Jack, what if it is delayed!
Mihnea,
Last year the 1st trailer was in mid-February, and Season 6 is probably getting a later release. I wouldn’t bet on getting trailer in January.
you snow nothing,
Well, if he lost it and tried to kill Melisandre he might not have much choice but to take the black.
It’s a very long shot. I’m just wondering if they’d do something like that to try and maintain a point of view character at the Wall until the White Walkers overwhelm it (as I’m assuming they will do at some point).
I personally think he’ll end up in Jon Snow’s company, but if Melisandre’s there too it might just seem like a retread of the Stannis/Mel/Davos dynamic.
I’m just wondering if they might throw us a curve ball.
One last lovers’ spat for the road? Count me in. ?
I think it’s either about Stannis’ record as king or about Jon and the future, not about Shireen. Mostly because I think Davos would try to kill Mel if it was about Shireen.
e: also because Shireen is so last season.
I think people are forgetting how hard it is to harm Melisandre. I don’t think Davos is going to be able to just up and kill her because he’s mad at her. Especially since
I do think they’re going to end up taking Davos back to where he is as of the end of ADWD. About to look for Rickon. This might take place after the first few episodes given that there’s been some evidence posted on the site that Rickon will be in season 6.
My speculation is that Melisandre will have a vision of where he is and talk Davos into going. He’s not too comfortable with anything supernatural, so after seeing her resurrect Jon and hearing all the WW talk, he’ll be all too happy to have a mission away from the Wall.
Well Nathalie tweeted that she’s flying back to Belfast today http://i.imgur.com/seD3dTF.jpg
I keep forgetting to bookmark that website!
Jon is gonna wake up, look at all the people arguing, and lay back down and pretend to still be dead.
The first trailer for Season 5 was at the end of January, not mid February. They’ve also confirmed an April release twice now with the poster and the teaser, so even if Season 6 premieres late April the trailer shouldn’t be later than February.
Maybe Davos will confront her over Stannis and Shireen or something she will want do with Jon’s body, his future if he’s alive then. Davos saw what she did with Stannis. I would bet on Shireen, but since it’s in the earlier episodes, Davos could find out about Shireen later on. Mel need some signals or motivation to do something with Jon. She lost her keing and hero. R’hllor might help with that. Maybe she will try to show him something in the flames and Davos doesn’t believe in magic. He could kill her after all. Davos is likely to be at Snowbowl with Jon.
April!
Thanks for this post, Sue! I was really starting to get the jitters without spoilerish news. Truly, over the next couple of months, I’ll take whatever tidbit you’ve got.
Addicted? No! What are you talking about? 🙂
WOW!!!! Mel and Davos (And Kit at Belfast..) Great news, thanks! 🙂
Kit’s there too?
caliopesnow,
Kit too? Where did you heard or read it. I guess he find out some maneuver to escape paparazzi. 😀
Well … I can’t think of much reason they’d be joyfully having a freaking picnic together at this point in the story!
Geralt of Rivia,
Well there’s this:
https://twitter.com/Lozza_Mag/status/672736156967174144
So he was around last week when Carice was in Belfast. We haven’t heard anything about him being involved in her scene though so it may have been for another one.
mau,
Awesome, thanks. They were well written still
Jack Bauer 24,
Geralt of Rivia,
No paparazzis, friends! Social media(Twitter, Facebook, IG…) the sign of the times!! (Go Kit!!! 🙂 )
That’ll probably lift his already cheerful spirits!
Morgoth,
No, it’s bitching. If it wasn’t there was no need to even comment. And this comes from Queen Bitch.
And Yesterday…A guy had a funny chat with him 🙂
Davos and Mel already have things to disagree on, we don’t need a theory about Davos being Shireen’s father :
– Mel burned Shireen,
– Mel is responsible for Stannis death.
I don’t get why some of you are surprised, I thought everyone knew that they would begin season 6 with a confrontation…
Stirring things,
lol that one was left wide open. XD
It’s going to be so heartbreaking to see Davos super upset about Shireen. I hope he gives Mel what for.
I cannot help but wonder how the news about Stannis, Shireen, and Selyse is going to come out. What I wonder even more, though, is how Melisandre is going to…for lack of a better way of putting it…deal with it. Of the 3, the only death we know Melisandre knows about at this point is Shireen. How do those, including Melisandre, learn of Stannis’ defeat? Does she see it in her flames? Does a messenger or raven deliver the news? Most importantly, does Melisandre tell the truth regarding Shireen? Is she such a true believer she says what she did and then tries the ol’ “R’hllor works in mysterious ways?” I know there are a number of other factors, but I’m really curious to see how Melisandre deals with what she did. I don’t get a feeling she’ll feel any sort of real guilt about Shireen or Stannis, and certainly not Selyse. I’d guess she can even justify her errors, her misinterpretations, since true believers can justify anything.
Morgoth,
During weekends, it’s best to keep expectations low for GoT news. Besides, this is enough for some fun speculation.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I imagine the Boltons will be pretty happy to tell the world about having seen off such a formidable opponent in Stannis (although we viewers all know his army was down to the bare bones). It’d be a pretty good show of strength/authority.
The show’s version of the Pink Letter, possibly? Ramsey can’t find Sansa or Theon for whatever reason, figures they’ve gone to the wall, sends the letter also bragging about killing Stannis. Actually, possibly claiming to kill the entire family because why not. Which sparks Jon & Co. to march south.
I highly doubt that Mel is ever going to admit to burning Shireen, so if Davos ever finds out just what happened to her, then someone else is going to have to do it. Possibly if Ramsey is eventually defeated, he admits to not actually killing anyone and Davos can make some assumptions. But I doubt the argument in this post has anything to do with Shireen. Much more likely it has to do with Jon and his resurrection, whether it’s happened already by this point or Mel is just talking about doing it.
I suppose a big part of Mel’s story going forward is how she deals with Stannis’ death, and where she finds a purpose. She’s already got Jon pegged (at least insofar as having power in his blood – whatever’s left of it) so maybe he is her key to “redemption”.
Say what you want about Mel, she’s one of the few who know and recognize the real threat, so I hope she gets her resurrection on, ASAP. 🙂
Cathair,
Well if he finds out that stannis burned his daughter alive i don’t think he will care what Jon did or didn’t do. He might also see the ressurection and finally see good in melisandras magic, and without stannis what else will he do, if Jon is going to fight the Bolton’s Davos the Dubliner will go with him.
I think it’s going to be a cool start to Castle Black, with Melissandre and Davos as these two kind of lost, abandoned children, who are obviously at odds with a lot of things, but will probably find some sort of kinship in their shared grief and self-doubts. In the style of Jane and Charlie Utter in Deadwood after Bill dies.
I wonder what will happen to the half of stannis army that deserted, did they all just go home to there families, are they close by, will Davos regain their trust and aid in the battle at winterfell. Just a thought.
Phil Necro,
Nothing more than that.
caliopesnow,
Great. 😀 Hoping of a good screen time for Kit this season. His performance last season really hyped me about his arc and what he’s going to do next.
Sue the Fury,
Great, thanks for this.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I agree they would be happy to tell the world, and I think, as Exit81 said, a version of the Pink Letter would work quite nicely. Many of the same elements are in place
. It still leads me to the question about Melisandre and Shireen’s death, though. If, as Exit81 guesses, Melisandre does not come clean about her role in Shireen’s death, what does that tell us about her? Why would she lie? She strikes me as very much a “the end will justify the means” type, even if there’s some trial and error (and it seems to me she’d view Shireen’s death as an…oops, got that wrong, no biggie, moving on) involved. She’s admitted fallibility in terms of R’hllor always sending truths through the flames, just sometimes she misinterprets them. I guess I think if she tells the truth, that doesn’t tell us much about her, but if she lies, while I’m not sure exactly what that would tell us, I think it would tell us something which may be important. I don’t know…maybe I’m just spinning my wheels.
Cathair,
With Sam heading for the citidal Davis becomes the trusted voice of reason. As such he is more important and will be Jons defacto hand. Just imagine him becoming the eventual hand to who ever becomes ruler of the 7k’s. Rising from highest from lowest on merit and with honour unlike PB who nude red and schemed himself to the top)
Mel I think will head south to tell the faithless the savior is Jon only to find others think it’s D.
Hahahaaa, you tell ’em Sue. That was funny.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I think if she lies about causing Shireen’s death it may confirm she realises she has backed the wrong horse and that Stannis is not Azor Ahai. She is such a ‘means to an end’ person that if she believed burning Shireen was necessary for Stannis to be the prophesy-guy she wouldn’t care who knew what she had done because she was doing it for R’hllor/Azor Ahai. But if she realises she was wrong and has just burned an innocent girl…would that bother her? Enough to lie to Davos about what she’d done? She’s been pretty upfront in the past about shadow babies etc because she was sure she was in the right…not quite sure what I am getting at here, other than I agree that whether or not she admits to Davos what she did to Shireen is important for her character.
Bran wargs into jon, you heard it here first
Regardless of what exactly they’re arguing about, it will be very interesting to watch how these two each react to the loss of their liege-lord and find some new raison d’etre. Jon is the obvious alternative, but maybe the resolution won’t be quite so simple. I’m looking forward to how this plays out, and hope very much that Davos goes on to bigger and better things.
Cathair,
remember that davos has a family down in the stormlands somewhere, maybe he gives jon the nod and rides off to hang up his sword.
Now I have to explain to my mother why I’m staring at Kona and LMAO.
Various versions of Bran and/or BR being involved in Jon’s resurrection have been bandied about here for at least a few weeks, maybe even several. It’s always good to see others thinking along the same lines, though. 🙂
watcher in the brothel,
But I thought that he only had this son that died at battle and a wife he was estranged from.
I Dream of Spring,
We have already seen at the end of season 5 that Mel has had a crisis of confidence and faith. Davos maybe the one to make her act to help Jon whose resurrection I think will take everyone by surprise even Mel. It may be that she prays in desperation for an answer and what happens to Jon may be the work of the Red God but also of other forces coalescing together.
I also think Davos will blame himself as much as Mel but Stanis most of all, whose ambition brought death to all who followed him. Jon like D is not one to seek victory at the expense of human decency and so will win Davos’ admiration – again I don’t think he’ll do revenge.
In this vain risen Jon will stop Mel from shadow casting and sacrificing and instead send her to D pleading for her to come to fight the WW’s and the army of the dead.
In this way she we will win over the seven kingdoms, not as conjurer but as a savior alongside Jon and co.
Book Davos lost I think four sons in the Battle of the Blackwater, has another squiring for Stannis and two young ones at home with his wife, from whom there is no hint at estrangement. He misses his family but puts his sworn duty to Stannis first. The TV version smooshed all his grown sons into a single character.
watcher in the brothel,
Liam talked about finding someone worthy of following. Not much of options. One is currently dead and other just jumped out of Winterfell walls. He will follow Starks or at least that’s my take on this.
Should we talk about the weather? Should we talk about the government?
I don’t mean to call you out, but have you ever noticed how, when folks say, “I don’t mean to be bitchy, but,” then what inevitably follows is bitchy? “I don’t mean to be rude, but” prepare yourself for callous remarks. “I don’t mean to pry, but” I’m about to get right up in your business. “I don’t mean to cry, but” get out the Kleenex. “I don’t mean to be tacky, but” prepare to be wowed by my lack of taste. “I don’t mean to change the subject, but….” “I don’t mean to interrupt, but ….” “I don’t mean to offend you, but ….” “I don’t mean to nag, but ….”
Geralt of Rivia,
Carice is there as well. If someone don’t recognize her on that leaked picture with Kit, then he really should go to a ophthalmologist. That’s Carice. End of story.
I hope Davos stabs her in the head…after she brings Jon back, of course.
It was Stannis who burned Shireen. Mel doesn’t have so much to confess. She was just, in a way, telling Stannis the way the world works (as she sees it): sacrifice somebody with noble blood and good things happen. He acted 100% of his own volition.
Are we thinking April 24th premiere?
Love the site…best one around on all GOT news but boy the mods can be so thinned skinned. This was very mild criticism. Just let it go and move on. Expect an opposing view now and then.
All I want to know is……………………..will Melisandre be nude during the scene?
I am not a pervert! I just wanted Turbo Man doll.
Chump Force 1,
I concur.
I hope they give Davos more to this year, he was playing second fiddle to Stannis these past two seasons.
Off-Topic Otto,
True, it was Stannis who ultimately made the call, but it was Melisandre who suggested it and actually burned her. Given Stannis is dead, she’s the only one left to really be held responsible, I think.
Jack Bauer 24,
That’s my guess. Any earlier, and they’d have to either have to change what time GoT airs, or change the time Vinyl airs.
Off-Topic Otto,
Let’s put it this way: Cersei wanted to kill Lady, and Robert consented. Who’s to blame (or rather, who’s to blame more?)? Cersei or Robert?
Mel will ask Davos to smuggle Jon out of Castle Black because Davos was a famous smuggler. Jon will ask Davos to fetch his sword. While in Jon’s chambers, Davos will spot a sealed message from the Boltons. He’ll pocket it in case there is word of Stannis. Jon was reading his messages when he was interrupted. Mel will ask Jon who did this. Jon will be befuddled & mumble Olly. Mel will glamour Olly to look like Jon on the pyre as they escape. They will head south to the safety of the wildlings camp.
Jon will read the Pink Letter. Melisandre will remind him no one knows the castle, its hidden tunnels, its weaknesses, & its people as well as he does because it was his home once. Jon will inherit Davos’ loyalty because the Boltons killed Stannis & Stannis saw something in Jon & believed in him. Davos will remind Jon that Jon saved the wildlings’ bloody lives & if they’re gonna live in the Seven Kingdoms, safe behind the Wall, they ought to fight for the damn place.
Jon will ask Tormund to ask the wildlings to fight the Boltons for Winterfell, the Gift & his sister. Tormund “is more willing to compromise than Mance ever was” & will encourage the wildlings to march with Jon.
I’m very curious about how this will all play out as well, but I thought there was real guilt written all over her when she came back to Castle Black. Was I being far too optimistic? Am I giving her too much credit?
Ygritte,
Or for those sweet summer children who haven’t been paying attention and are now truly lost.
Yeah seems like that date has to be a lock since they confirmed April and Vinyl finale is the 17th.
Rygritte,
Much of this sounds pretty plausible to me. Maybe Mel rezzes Jon accidentally, thinking that she’s just regretfully kissing him goodbye, not realizing that she also has the power to deliver the “last kiss”? Could setup for this be the reason for the scenes where she’s trying to seduce him in Season 5, which otherwise seemed kind of unnecessary?
I think that you’re on the money about Davos or some other Jon ally finding the show equivalent of the Pink Letter unopened on his desk. I doubt that it’s coincidental that opening his mail was what he was in the midst of when he got called away on a wild Benjen chase.
I saw that too. She looked guilty, ashamed, despairing and depressed. What we don’t know is how much Davos read into that about her role in the deaths. This scene may be triggered when he buttonholes her to ask exactly what went down.
You saw guilt, and I saw a woman stunned because she/the Red God was wrong about Stannis being the Chosen One. I thought she looked lost and a little bit afraid. It’s very much a mileage varies situation, though, because I’ve seen people read it as Mel being cold and unfeeling in that moment.
Ginevra,
I would love to believe part of her looking so crestfallen was due to guilt over Shireen and Stannis, especially Shireen. Unfortunately, at least in my view, the only real loyalty she’s ever shown is to R’hllor, so I interpreted what we saw on her face as a combination of shame for letting down R’hllor (interpreting things incorrectly), and a calculated “this could be a dangerous moment for me, so maybe if I look so stricken I can’t speak, I can buy myself some time to figure out how best to proceed.”
Maybe I’m being too pessimistic, though.
Rygritte,
Ok, that theory’s enough to get me outta the shadows. I like it, especially redhead-fades-to-redhead! You lost me at Olly-glamour, tho I’m among those who’d like to see him burn.
The pink letter is just too good to be skipped altogether…
I would love for RisenJon to be the same compassionate, honorable man that Jon was. But Lady Stoneheart was a vindictive, unsympathetic bitch. Even though she wasn’t warm and cuddly before death, GRRM implied that this personality transformation was deliberately done to show the degradation that happens when someone dies. So I’m worried that Jon may forget his decency in lieu of vengeance. Lord Iceheart.
Rygritte,
Fun read! Thx. Love the Olly = Rattleshirt stuff. 😉 Would work for the show…maybe for the books as well, but I believe Bran/BR (passively) and Ghost (actively) will be involved as well.
Firannion, Edd will help them escape by opening & closing the gate. Alliser will appoint himself LC until an avalanche of wights rains down on his head in the finale.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Bowie was talking about you??
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I haven’t read all the comments so I don’t know if anyone has presented this idea, but I have a feeling Mel will “smooth out” the news of Shireen to Davos, by attributing Jon’s resurrection to her sacrifice. Initially, Davos will rage. But after Jon wakes, the Onion Knight may become a believer. Maybe this is just me projecting my own desire for Shireen’s death to have meaning, but I do think this is a possible scenario.
This is great news! Thanks for bringing it to us. I agree with the commenters above about the portrayals of these characters. So far in the show, every scene with either Davos or Melisandre has been well worth watching, and the scenes with both of them have just been amazing. A flat-out verbal brawl between the two of them would be a great treat.
Davos’ final interactions with Shireen made it pretty clear, at least to this viewer, that he didn’t expect to see her again. He’s heard enough about the Lord of Light and the benefits of burning royal blood, and he’s neither stupid nor naive. Even if he doesn’t receive word of exactly how Shireen died, he’ll blame it on Melisandre anyway, since he was loyal to Stannis, not Melisandre.
Bear in mind that we never actually saw Stannis die. We heard Brienne recite a long justification for killing him, which was effectively a parody of Ned’s speech in the first episode. Whereas Ned actually was Warden of the North, executing an oathbreaker in the name of royal justice, Brienne was kingsguard to a royal pretender, and she’s clearly trying to justify a revenge killing of a defenseless man. Perhaps Stannis’ telling her to “do your duty” causes her to remember how a real knight wouldn’t do such a thing, and so she swings high…
Ginevra,
I agree with your description of LSH, and I understand your concern about Jon.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Let us hope so!
3 days dead in a lukewarm riverbed tends to degrade a body and mind even more than normally when one is forced to “return”….and when the last image burned into the returned one’s retina is one of absolute madness and mayhem.
Jon’s return will be different (hopefully)…with several seen and unseen forces (relevant to ice and fire) providing the necessary input and support.
Rygritte,
Nice work! I like your thoughts here, and echo what others have said about the plausibility of the events unfolding much like this.
How would Mel get ahold of Olly? And would a child’s body serve as a convincing body double for Jon? Does that matter? Here’s hoping she does not use Tormund as a glamour! (Though, I’m not sure she will use a glamour anyway)
Hodors Bastard,
Let’s hope it’s a quick resurrection, in that case ?. I can’t help but think that GRRM portrayed the revived Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart the way he did as a kind if warning to readers not to expect a Jon that is too much like himself pre-stabbing. Both Beric and Stoneheart lost themselves, to greater or lesser degrees, via resurrection. But then, the show has no Stoneheart, and we didn’t see much of Beric, so D&D may go about things differently to what GRRM will in TWOW.
Sue the Fury,
Kit is back in London now at least. Yesterday someone took a photo with him at the airport and another person snapped a shot of him out in a pub:
http://iconosquare.com/p/1133489828448160414_283602801
https://twitter.com/KoraLee_Holmes/status/673247976966512640
Chump Force 1,
Are you new here? Morgoth snarked, she snarked back. Who has the thin skin?
I wonder how obvious any “change” or “degradation” to Jon will be to the viewer?
Edit: The GoT S6 teaser was just shown right before The Leftovers finale started…. So fucking cool!
Few seconds of new footage tonight before the Leftovers finale. Dany, Ramsay, and Cersei hugging Tommen. Yeeeeee! But now I gotta watch The Leftovers…
To which Mike Mills might counter: Get up!
Burning Shireen ended a blizzard. Melissandre got what she requested with this major sacrifice. What she also got was the destruction of Stannis’ army. However, that is always a trick when dealing with gods: be careful for what you wish, because they just might grant it.
I don’t know that it is a crisis of “faith.” In many ways, Melissandre cannot have faith in R’hllor: she has been given tangible evidence of it’s existence, powers and desires. She’s not seeing Jesus’ face in tortillas: she’s getting instructions and getting results from particular acts.
Instead, I expect something different. Mel has been sure that she has understood what R’hllor has been showing her. This will lead to one of two things. One possibility is a crisis of confidence: she might now be plagued with doubts that she ever understands R’hllor properly. Another possibility is that she will decide that this was all part of R’hllor’s plan to get her to the Wall and to Jon.
I am betting on the latter.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Nope. Been here since day one and visit every day.
What’s your point?
Hopefully not at all because hopefully it will not be there! It would greatly undermine the story if Jon “degrades” in anyway. Jon has to come back as more than he was, just as Daeny has to come back from Vaes Dothrak as more than she was or how Arya has to come out of her trials with the Faceless Men as more than she was. Story must take precedence over everything else: and few things would hurt a story more than having one of the primary protagonists degrade.
The circumstances probably will be very different. LSH was revived after several days of being dead. Her brain would have been badly degraded by then. Beric is revived multiple times.
Jon will be revived after having been “dead” for moments. It will be little different from someone who “dies” on an operating table, only to be revived moments later. Jon should be wisened by this – he now has learned the valuable lessons that good deeds will go punished, and that there are people who cannot overcome minor fears to face major fears – but all of the character evolution that we’ve seen up to this point has to be in place. Otherwise, MB&W will have ripped an icebergesque hole in the hull of the HMS Story.
There is the yearender !!!!
The Boltons will be advertising in far and wide: it is a great victory for their house, after all, and they will think that they can use this to their advantage with the Lannisters. Indeed, a leaked part of an audition script suggests that Varys has learned of Stannis’ defeat in Essos, and although his spy network is pretty good, that probably only means he got the news earlier than everyone else.
Moreover, I would not be surprised to see a variant on the Carnation Colored Card. After all, Ramsay is going to figure out fairly quickly that Sansa and Reek are not in Winterfell. Whither would she go? Well, he did go and tell her about Jon being at the Wall: and although he might have heard by then that Jon has been deposed and executed for treason, he still might assume that Sansa will not get that news and flee there. And, of course, that will boast of the defeat of Stannis, just as it did in the original incarnation.
None of this precludes Mel seeing it (or having seen it) in her fires. Indeed, her actions at the end of last season suggest that she knows what happened. However, failing that, she will learn soon enough about Stannis. (I doubt that most of the world will worry too much about Selyse or Shireen.)
Chump Force 1,
My point is the mods on here are not thin-skinned, they are just consistently present and interactive. They also take no shit, which is well within their rights. People don’t have to like that, but they also don’t get to wax passive-aggressive with impunity.
Now, back to what matters, which is any iota of information about season 6. Please and thank you!
Wimsey,
I agree that when Jon comes back he will not have degraded, but become ‘more’ . The question is, more what? LSH became more focused on something – revenge- and Beric on justice. I think Jon will be even more focused on something as well – presumably saving the world from the WW. But the viewer has to see some change in Jon, dying and being resurrected will leave their mark on him for good or ill, and the viewer needs to see that or what would be the point of his needing to die in the first place, narratively speaking.
I hope Carice gets some Emmy worthy scenes this season. It’s her time to shine.
Yeah, I believe we’re in complete agreement on this.
I that what Jon will be “more” capable of ultimately understanding what the White Walkers want and how they were wronged in some way (they have not come back just for hoots and giggles, after all), and more motivated to reach a solution that maximizes the greater good. I think that the situation will be like Daeny’s: one thing Jon will learn is that there are some people will not accept anything other than absolute right/wrongs, and that some diseases can be healed whereas others are cancers that must be cut.
Mel is and will remain a very secondary character. Her job is to put main characters (first Davos, now Jon) into predicaments that challenge their core identities. As such, she probably will not get the screen time to attract Emmy attention. (And, of course, there will be so much stuff vying for Emmy attention from other actors that it will make her toughest competitors her co-workers.)
Democracy wins! Oh, wait: this isn’t a democracy….
Why do people think it could be Mel helping bring back Jon? As I see it GRRM has painted the WW and Rhillior as similar enemies rather than good and bad. It would have to be the *old* gods/magic for consistency to Jon – most likely via influences from children, bran and the crow.
Is Azor Ahai even a thing on the show? I don’t recall him being mentioned. Unless AA is somehow important to the plot at large, it seems likely to be cut, IMO.
caliopesnow,
That sounds interesting. I want to read what the funny chat was about! Where can I find this?
On the show, Mel never even refers to Rh’llor by name, only as the Lord of Light; and Azor Ahai she calls the Lord’s Chosen. Typical dumbing-down for the TV audience. But I think we could do with some exposition early in S6 on the subject of who exactly this Chosen dude is and how he ties in with the history/mythology of the Long Night. Maybe that will be part of Bran’s vision grand tour guided by Bloodraven.
Cool. About the only notable factoid I can squeeze out of the three teensy shots from GoT S6 is that Dany’s elaborate braids are finally coming undone. So I guess that she has been living rough for awhile in that shot. I wonder if that body of water behind her is the sacred lake at Vaes Dothrak.
Ginevra,
I think he will be changed but the empathy and pain he expressed in the past will be exponentially increased just as LSH was driven by vengeance and anger.
ThinkCenter,
I agree the old gods will have something to do with this. As I’ve said before I’d like to see Jon’s body burnt in the weirwood grove in the old forest and for him to rise from the ashes alone.
They need to explain the prophecy somehow before it happens. I think (or hope) that Melisandre will explain it to Davos (or she will show him the written prophecy in some old book from Wall library), and why she was convinced that prophecy concerning Stanis.
Firannion,
Azor Ahai/The Lords chosen. Lord of Light/Rh’llor is the same thing. The exact same thing.
What you call it is not important as long as it fullfills the same purpose, wich this those.
Calling it AA would couse unecessary confusion. Giving it a direct tittle is much more resonable. This is simplification and it is done so people can understand with more ease the purpose of AA.
It isn’t done only for the TV audiance, there are many book readers who have problem with names. And I doubt they will start calling these anything differently in S6 if they called them like this for 4 seasons.
Giving it a simpler tittle is not ”dumbing-down for the TV audiance” it is common sense.
Exit81,
I fully agree with you. That beautiful, vibrant woman looked old and tired.
Sue the Fury,
I hardly think Morgoths comment was dickish…seemed like reasonable feedback to me. The news was a little bit underwhelming after all. Not too great at taking criticism?
Yeah, though that would automatically mean somebody slept with Selise out of free will. Not happening.
We think this because of Chekhov’s Inverse Rule: a gun fired late has to be hung early. Neither show nor books have indicated that the Children or the Old Gods have anything like this sort of power. Only R’hllor has been show to have it. If the Old Gods were to be behind Jon’s revival, then the show and books needed to show us that they had this (or some roughly equivalent) power long ago. Otherwise, it becomes Deus Ex Machina (no pun intended). And, no, the fact that it involves a “god” in R’hllor does not make this Deus Ex Machina: the “R’hllor can revive people from the Dead” gun has been well-hung in both show and book. (They should do a pre-episode flashback reminder for the general audience, as Beric has not been on the show in 3 or so years: and this audience is much too busy to remember things otherwise.)
I would go one-step further: simplifying the presentation is called good communcations. Remember, the audience is primarily made up of fairly intelligent, well-educated professionals who make their livings by communicating ideas. They, themselves, would have been fired for communicating ideas equally poorly: and they, themselves, would have “fired” the show by ceasing to watch it had the show made the mistake of having people in costumes recite lines from the book.
This can happen if and only if it is relevant to the story being told this year. Good communications means adhering to Chekhov’s Rule: if a gun is hung early in the season, then it has to be fired for later in the season. The show cannot hang guns in Season 6 for Seasons 7 or 8: the audience is much, much too busy with real life to remember those things.
Moreover, it cannot be exposition. Good communications in cinema adheres to a simple rule: show, do not tell. Speech is a highly ineffective form of communication on screen. Indeed, as people joke, the audience remembers only a small fraction of the character names. Fans always say: “Then they are dumb”: but, quite the opposite, intelligent people have a lot on their minds most of the time. And it’s not like fans do any better at remembering tertiary or even secondary characters from other shows.
Ultimately, if AA is important, then it will be because of something(s) that Jon and Daeny have to do. That will probably be at the climax of the show: and that means that Season 8 (or maybe the end of Season 7 if it is some sort of cliffhanger) is the time to do it.
Jaayyyzuzzz. Enough with this. If you or any of the other three new people sounding exactly alike defending Morgoth really have a beef, the place is the forums and start a thread for it, not on a “topic related article”. And it is BORING. It always amazes me the lack of respect that visitors have when well…visiting to the owners site. Is it okay to be rude to someone in their home you or Morgoth would be visiting? Not if you have any tact or class.
WRT the Mel question. What will she do, what are her and Davos arguing about, will she or won’t she be the agent of Jon’s comeback and more……
Maybe I am getting it wrong in the way I recall the seasons past, but I don’t recall that Mel defers to anyone except to Stannis a few times. Mostly she makes some cryptic remark and does what the hell she wants to do. She really tried to intimidate Shireen and her mother and to me treated Davos pretty much as if he didn’t exist, or as a mosquito orbiting around her to be swatted down. Jon she tried to seduce and then left saying what? “You know nothing Jon Snow”.
Even though it “appears” that she is looking very dejected upon arriving at Castle Black, I think she will rally fast. I also suspect that any arguing that is being done between Davos and Mel is mostly on the part of Davos, I hardly think he can say much that would really affect her. SHE might say something that would rock him back on his heels, but not the other way around.
Will she or won’t she be the agent for the come back of Jon? It is most likely to me that to some degree she will. I read many posters repeating the Bran/BR connection, which has never been established even one time and for ME it just doesn’t make sense, maybe if this happened NEXT season after we see what Bran/BR is capable of it would be more plausible. I do think that Mel will have something to do with the comeback.
/2 centavos
Oh, man. I wasn’t going to say anything more, but I don’t have any beef with Sue. Or with anyone else, for that matter.
All I said was that the article had too little content, and maybe it didn’t warrant its own article, especially if you’re going to click-bait it with titles such as “New details of a Melisandre scene”, and then it’s just “Mel and Davos argue”. I mean, come on.
But I wasn’t ranting or demanding anything. I even said I was happy to receive more GoT news. So, yeah. WotW is certainly not my site and the owners can report on the weather or corgis or whatever they want.
I apologize if my comment was taken the wrong way, k?
Hugs and kisses.
Morgoth,
Haha you got mobbed for one comment! It’s tough cause we tend to protect what we like. And not everyone here reacts well or takes some things in stride. Don’t worry, you’re still my fave Tolkien baddie.
JCDavis,
You got me. I’m all three of those people, Morgoth, and GRRM. My main account is “TormundsWoman”.
Morgoth,
I think we that post often have a soft spot for our site admins and well, yeah, the wagons will circle. But like TW said….you are still my favorite Tolkien bad guy. 🙂 Now….just give me back the silmarils and all is forgiven. ((hugs))
Mel will resurrect Jon, at least on the show. On the show, when she traveled to the Riverlands to retrieve Gendry, she met Thoros of Myr and he explained to her how he had resurrected Beric. I don’t recall this happening in the books, but the show not only deviated to show her how to do it (and show the audience that she has that knowledge) and had her arrive at the Wall just in the nick of time.
cosca,
It’s the bag of coal for ya.
I think that she is doing what (she thinks) R’hllor wants her to do. Think of Mel as a very obedient dog: she does everything that she understands her master to ask her, but she does not understand her Master all that well. After all, it’s a “god” or something that passes for one, and it’s mode of communication seems to be images and metaphors without much context to past, present or future.
Yeah, it was a pretty blatantly hung gun on the show.
Tywin of the Hill,
Good question! I like the way you think. Indeed, questions of moral responsibility greatly concern GRRM, particularly in light (or dark) of his vision of a ‘grey’ moral universe. Littlefinger is a psychopath (there’s no ‘subtle’ difference to a ‘sociopath,’ as some on various forums like to claim) who is responsible for most of what goes down. But, as he so succinctly puts it himself, sometimes the pieces don’t co-operate; they refuse to make the moves you plan out for them. Each ‘piece’ in the game of thrones has free will, and therefore each ‘piece’ has responsibility for the part s/he plays. On the other hand, the past (and, by implication, the future) is already written, ‘the ink is dry,’ so who knows..!
Ned
Exposition regarding ancient prophesies may be the one way GOT could lose its audience at this point. Unless explaining the AA myth somehow pertains to the story being told, none for me, thanks.
I agree the old gods will have something to do with this. As I’ve said before I’d like to see Jon’s body burnt in the weirwood grove in the old forest and for him to rise from the ashes alone.
Seems a bit too wizard of oz/ Harry Potter like magic and I can’t see GRRM doing it that way. I suppose they could do it on the show though.
You have a point and I agree that it might well be the way in show but not likely in the books. Along with Chekhov’s Gun he heavily favors the Agatha Christie style of writing wherein certain facts are hidden until during the reveal i.e. Not quite Deus ex machina but the stuff shown previously are designed to sell you down the wrong path. The odds are heavily stacked against the reader making any educated guesses – ‘cos the details are just not there until the final tell! I don’t quite know what dots in the past books he may use use to join but pretty sure we are missing something at this stage which will make it happen.
Take Tower of Joy for instance. I’m convinced that we know only 20% of the story there which BTW points heavily to Jon parentage. He is holding an apple to us showing us the juicy red side whilst hiding the green side. Having said that though, the show may just go with the 20%.
Of course it pertains, if Jon is going to fulfill the role of AA/Chosen One. The show-only plebs will be baffled and lost if the role comes with zero explanation of how it connects with the WW etc. I said “some exposition,” not “reams and reams of exposition.” Sheesh.
Firannion,
That’s a big “if”. For all we know, Jon may well be able to do the things he’s required to do without being the embodiment of some prophecy.
King in the North Carolina,
And if that happens they can easly say: the Lords chosen. No need too call him AA.
A title works very well here, no need of a name.
It’s confusing, not only for ”show-only plebs” as some like too think but too many casual book-readers aswell.
Having hundreds of names hurts the story, especially if you speak of something that we will never see like AA, it makes it difficult too convey the story when people don’t remenber the name of some person we have never seen or ever will.
Giving it a title like the Lords chosen, is perfect. It fullfils the same purpose and it makes it easy to convey what you want too.
But of course there will be those who will call it ”dumbing-down” so they can feel superior to ”show plebs” for remenbering one more name.
Rygritte,
And, let’s not forget Sansa..! Like Ned, she disavowed her family, preferring loyalty to Joffrey and Cersei, as Ned always preferred allegiance to Robert, above all others, except perhaps his sister. The consequences for this misplaced loyalty was that Sansa lost her wolf, and Ned lost his head.
It was fake. Written by creepy AngryGOTFan, the biggest delusional misogynistic, racist bigot in the entire fandom. I made the mistake of befriending him earlier this year because I thought he was sympathetic towards rape survivors. After a couple months of texting, I found that he is basically a HUGE misogynist with majorly racist undertones. He’s truly completely nuts, too. His obsession with hating the show goes far beyond satire. He’s not a good person. He basically admitted to me that he helped one of his friends write that crappy leak. When I found out he made up that rape survivor I blocked his number. So yeah, the leak was AngryGOTFan’s usual garbage. Not real at all. For someone who brags about being in naval intelligence, you’d think he’d have one or two actual sources on the GOT set. I wish Twitter had kept his obnoxious account suspended. Sorry for the rant, I just cannot believe how backwards his ideology is.
Anyway, I hope the Onion Knight burns Mel alive as retribution for what she did to Shireen. Retribution is coming and Mel is not long for this world, I think her death will be associated with Jon’s resurrection.
The direwolves will definitely be howling. Shaggydog, Nymeria, Summer and one we can no longer sense.
“The children of the forest could speak to the dead, it’s said.” – ACOK
Bran may try to communicate with him as Bloodraven had in his dreams. We don’t know if Jon dies. D&D said he’s dead. Is that a TWOW spoiler?
Another great thread…love the comments and ideas you all have.
Could do without the crying, bickering and admin ass kissing, but all in all a good read.
Sue the Fury,
please do it and say “Winter is Coming”!
Stirring things,
Haha!
Sean C.,
Speamur
Ygritte,
Do you think Jon could get the power to transform himself into ghost ?
Cathair,
Who’s left behind on Stark kids……Rickon? Davos=Rickon! Melisandre might learn this and send Davos to search Rickon!
Ygritte,
Good one 😉