New deleted scene foretells Jon Snow’s fate

Tormund

Entertainment Weekly has shared an exclusive deleted scene from the Game of Thrones, Season Five premiere, which hints at Jon Snow’s eventual demise at the hands of the Night’s Watch.

Edit: Though EW reports the scene as being from S5E1, the scene appears to be from episode 5 of last season.

In the new footage, we can see Ser Alliser Thorne (Owen Teale) having a courtyard confrontation with Tormund Giantsbane (Kristofer Hivju).   The scene will be included on the Season Five DVD and Blu-ray boxsets, along with a host of other features, to be released on March 15th.

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    1. This is a rather distracting topic name. I would add in season 5 at least 🙂
      * Oh I didn’t read the first paragraph entirely, nevermind.

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    2. I saw this on twitter and thought it would be scene hinting at Jon’s revival. Totally misunderstood. Wishful thinking I guess 🙂

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    3. Newbietothegame,

      Totally off-topic, but your av brought it to mind. Do you know about the documentary made about the Vicktory dogs (the ones taken from Michael Vicks dog-fighting ring and rehabilitated)? It’s called Champions. I haven’t seen it yet, only read about it, but I thought you may be interested in at least knowing it exists.

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    4. Premiere ?

      Oh, I thought it was from the beginning of episode 7 (the departure for Hardhome) before reading the article ! (yeah, I watched the video straight ! ^^)

      Anyway, I kinda liked it, would have been nice to keep it, especially considering it gives some form of continuity to their “encounter” in season 4 ! ^^

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    5. Arkash: Premiere ?

      Oh, I thought it was from the beginning of episode 7 (the departure for Hardhome) before reading the article ! (yeah, I watched the video straight ! ^^)

      Right? I guess Tormund is referring to Stannis when he says Thorne is not in charge anymore…? When I first watched the scene I assumed he meant Jon. I thought this scene was located when Jon decided to parlay with Tormund.

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    6. The scene was meant for ep. 505. It was on that ep.’s page on FarFarAwaySite after it aired. It’s before Jon and Tormund’s meeting.

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    7. Greenjones:
      The scene was meant for ep. 505. It was on that ep.’s page on FarFarAwaySite after it aired. It’s before Jon and Tormund’s meeting.

      That makes more sense.

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    8. Arkash,

      I was very surprised when EW claimed that this was from the season premiere. If that were true and this scene was supposed to take place before Jon was elected Lord Commander, then it really doesn’t foreshadow his death in any meaningful way. In the premiere, the Night’s Watch has no Lord Commander, and Alliser is effectively the highest ranking member of the Watch at Castle Black, give or take Aemon and Ser Denys. He may not be officially in charge, but who’s telling him what do? (Stannis, I suppose). Furthermore, while Alliser suspects that Jon harbors sympathy for the wildlings, he has no idea that Jon is even going to be a candidate for Lord Commander – let alone that he’ll try to bring all of the wildlings south of the wall. His bad blood with Tormund, stemming from their duel in Season 4, shouldn’t plant the seed for his wanting to assassinate Jon. Not at this time, anyway.

      I don’t mean to dismiss EW’s reporting out of hand, but I think they got bad information here.

      Greenjones:
      The scene was meant for ep. 505. It was on that ep.’s page on FarFarAwaySite after it aired. It’s before Jon and Tormund’s meeting.

      Yeah, when I was watching the scene, I found myself intuitively placing it in either 505 or 507. That makes much more sense.

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    9. Jared: Commander, then it really doesn’t foreshadow his death in any meaningful way. In the premiere, the Night’s Watch has no Lord Commander, and Alliser is effectively the highest ranking member of the Watch at Castle Black, give or take Aemon and Ser Denys. He may not be officially in charge, but who’s telling him what do? (Stannis, I suppose). Furthermore, while Alliser suspects that Jon harbors sympathy for the wildlings, he has no idea that Jon is even going to be a candidate for Lord Commander – let alone that he’ll try to bring all of the wildlings south of the wall. His bad blood with Tormund, stemming from their duel in Season 4, shouldn’t plant the seed for his wanting to assassinate Jon. Not at this time, anyw

      This is a good summation, Jared.

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    10. Greenjones:
      The scene was meant for ep. 505. It was on that ep.’s page on FarFarAwaySite after it aired. It’s before Jon and Tormund’s meeting.

      Wait, which site is that?

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    11. Dragonslayer: Yes, I think we may get a trailer or another featurette soon. They may hold off the trailerfor a while (I’m convinced we’ll get one – most likely just one) but the marketing machine is slowly getting speed.

      I’m thinking a trailer late this month.

      JCDavis: Yuppers.That is where I got started on checking out GIF’s. I don’t know that I can actually do that….but I could watch 5 days on a weekend to keep caught up.

      I’m currently doing a rewatch. Halfway through Season 4 now, so yeah too late for me to do this now lol.

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    12. Huh, I hope this deleted scene does NOT foretell Tormund’s fate in Season 6! 🙂 When Alliser is in charge to begin with……

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    13. Having watched and rewatched this deleted scene…

      No, nothing in this scene “Foreshadows” Jon Snow’s fate at all, and it is misleading to title it as that.

      In fact it’s redundant. It changes nothing and adds no new insights into the storyline.

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    14. The Dragon Demands,
      You should probably stick to policing your wiki hell, instead of trying to do so here. You even put it in bold, your favorite thing!

      Anyway, you’re not entirely wrong. The scene DOES foreshadow Alliser’s conflict with Jon, I guess, but not more so than… well, the rest of the season, and previous seasons too! It doesn’t add anything new, so I understand why it was cut. It DOES foreshadow… it’s just redundant in its foreshadowing, which is what I’m gonna guess you were trying but failing to convey.

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    15. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Newbietothegame,

      Totally off-topic, but your av brought it to mind.Do you know about the documentary made about the Vicktory dogs (the ones taken from Michael Vicks dog-fighting ring and rehabilitated)?It’s called Champions.I haven’t seen it yet, only read about it, but I thought you may be interested in at least knowing it exists.

      Yes, I have heard about it, but have not seen it.

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    16. Luka Nieto:
      The Dragon Demands,

      You gotta be kidding! I assumed you knew about it, or else I would’ve mentioned it. It’s where everyone gets their HD promo pictures. Check it out, it’s worth it, and useful for the wiki

      I never knew that existed either.. don’t have a ton of time to spend online so the little bit I do have is just getting on here and a few other sites for about an hour a day.. doesn’t leave much time for perusing websites.. THANKS for the link!!!

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    17. The Dragon Demands:
      Having watched and rewatched this deleted scene…

      No, nothing in this scene “Foreshadows” Jon Snow’s fate at all, and it is misleading to title it as that.

      In fact it’s redundant.It changes nothing and adds no new insights into the storyline.

      This is the first time I will have to agree that this title is so way off the mark.. this doesn’t make me think of Jon’s fate at all… I have NO idea why they would label this as such unless it’s just a way to get ppl to read – which is totally not necessary bc without a trailer we are willing to read ANYTHING at this point just for new news. Could have just plainly titled it “Deleted scene with Tormund” and we would have watched it non-the-less. But oh well… in hindsight (edited) I can see how it might foretell the hatred Alliser feels towards JS and therefore show that he is going to get rid of JS so that he can be in charge..

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    18. ….Now I feel bad like it sounds like I’m yelling at the wonderful runners of WOTW; they just re-used the title Entertainment Weekly used, that isn’t their fault or anything.

      ….if it had just said “Tormund and Alliser deleted scene” I’d have been gushing over how nice it is to have another small character moment between the two, as a nice continuity nod.

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    19. I agree that it didn’t foretell anything about “Jon’s fate.” It simply added to the growing animosity. I wish they would have kept it in simply because Tormund and Alliser need to glare at each other more. Quite enjoyable.

      Unfortunately, the real travesty (and bizarre diversion) about the FTW scene is that they used Benjen’s name to initiate it. Shame! For that, I wish a thousand stompings by Wun Wun upon show!Alliser and Olly.

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    20. What, Aliser didn’t get enough of Tormund when the Hornblower beat his ass into next week during the wildling raid? Sorry…whatever happens in Season 6, they better lay off the chicken eater.

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    21. Wasn’t Thorne in charge for the last episode of S4 and the first two and a half episodes of S5? While the Wildlings were being fed and sheltered?

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    22. Luka Nieto:
      The Dragon Demands,
      You should probably stick to policing your wiki hell, instead of trying to do so here.

      You’ve been reading my profile page?
      http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/User:The_Dragon_Demands#Quotes

      “This wiki is my private, self-inflicted Hell. Rolling boulders up a hill only to see them fall down the hill again, time after time for eternity. Yet here I may reign secure, and in my choice: better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven. “

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    23. Hodors Bastard: I agree that it didn’t foretell anything about “Jon’s fate.”

      I agree, and it’s not really foretelling when you just boldly state what you would do. However, it might be a taste for what Ser Alliser is going to try to do to the Wildlings once he takes over.

      On this topic, I’ve been meaning to ask you a related question! You, I and others have speculated endlessly (or seemingly so) about the aftermath of Jon’s assassination. In particular, we’ve viewed Stannis’ skeleton crew as a big wild-card. But I don’t recall our ever discussing what the Northmen at the Wall will be doing. We seem to have left them out of the equation: and in the book, they seem to like Jon on one hand, but they do not also like having all of these Wildlings south of the Wall.

      The reason why I am wondering is that I have started to suspect that the Nationalists waited to act until they did on the show because they were waiting for reinforcements. After all, even if they are convinced that Jon and the Wildlings are lying about the events at Hardhome (and I suspect that most of them are so convinced), then they still would have to think that the Wildlings would not take kindly to their ally being killed. Moreover, and as we just saw: Ser Alliser (just like Bowen Marsh in the books) wants Wildling corpses, not Wildling allies. (Hell, I suspect that Aliser and many of the others would like the Wildlings coming back as wights: then they could kill each Wildling a second time! 😀 )

      Even if nothing comes of this in the show, then it still should be an issue in the books . And it would be a lapsus bordering on a plothole on the show if the Nationalists did this without any ability to defend themselves against the Wildlings.

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    24. Ice Spider: This is the first time I will have to agree that this title is so way off the mark.. this doesn’t make me think of Jon’s fate at all… I have NO idea why they would label this as such unless it’s just a way to get ppl to read – which is totally not necessary bc without a trailer we are willing to read ANYTHING at this point just for new news.

      This post is named for the EW article it references. The EW peeps, bless, probably didn’t even realize that ThorneyPooh held any animosity toward Snow, whatsoever. They must have missed every interaction between the two. Ever. ThorneyPants has always considered Snow to be a thorn in his side.

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    25. Wimsey: the aftermath of Jon’s assassination.

      Hi W,

      Well, I remember offering a scenario a few months back where Wun Wun and Edd would go on a fierce buddy adventure after introducing Alliser and Olly to Wun Wun’s sole, but that is probably not what you were requesting. 🙂

      I must admit that I care more for the magical mysteries of the Wall and how/why it was enabled (who – CotF/WW/humans/giants – are being segregated from whom?) than the diminished and warped role of the NW (which has been reduced to ranging for wildling agitators), but the fate of the presumed-divided NW in S6 is worth exploring. Thanks for asking.

      Immediate reaction: In the book, there are a bunch of witnesses to FTW, including Wun Wun. There will be immediate chaos. However, the show has implied more of an isolated assassination so the nationalists may lay low and feign ignorance…which may be thwarted by Ghost, Davos or Mel. But the tension will be thick. If Jon comes back immediately, the nationalists are goners (or they may flee in fear)…if not, they may gain the upper hand quickly. If/when Jon returns (if not immediately) then I can imagine everyone’s skepticism (even the wildlings), trying to distinguish him from a wight, which many have witnessed.

      In the latter scenario, I don’t see Jon gathering folks around him upon his resurrection. As we discussed before, he may actually have several forces at work inside his head (a combo of Red and Old god proxies!) that he needs to understand first. He will disappear for a while, and re-energize/learn/grow, possibly with the wildlings/Tormund/Mel, but may reunite/recommunicate with a select few later on and build his relations with the partial NW and the wildlings. As you have often stated…the big question is how will Jon convince others at the wall and beyond of his second coming and of the inevitable return of the Long Night. This is where Bran (and maybe Sam!) may be key.

      I believe the nationalists will remain at the wall, in charge and still skeptical. Jon and his loyalists and wildlings/giants will find their adventure by gathering in the Gift and going south. I also believe Davos will learn of Jon’s fate, accept it and take his message southeast toward Last Hearth.

      Also, please note that regardless of any decimation that occurs in the north because of the WWs, all WILL change when grown dragons appear. Valyrian steel, obsidian and dragon fire will invariably change the outlook for the impending doom. BR (an adamant Targ) and the CotF (the original/debatable treaty organizers) may have hidden agendas as well that may or may not help Jon’s cause.

      Cheers!

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    26. I’m please this scene didn’t make it. It is far too on the nose. Deleting it gave Thorne more nuance. While he didn’t like what Jon was doing and challenged it he understood his reasons. When the betrayal finally occurred it came as more of a surprise for those who had not read the books and gave more weight to their deliberations and the actions , even if this largely occurred off screen – excluding Ollie’s and Throne’s questioning and challenging of Jon. It would also have been wrong to give Throne this type of a scene elevating him in the over all narrative beyond the primary and secondary characters. Good choice to axe it.

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    27. Hodors Bastard,

      You are all assuming Jon’s resurrection will happen in front of everyone. Perhaps it won’t. The body could be locked in the ice cells and mysteriously disappear or reanimate unseen. It might be that Ghost is the one to realise Jon is back and causes Mel or Davos to have the cell opened.

      The name Ghost would thus make perfect for Jon would in someways be a ghost.

      It might be that Mel is not the re-animator. Perhaps her “loaded gun” is not for Jon but as a tool to prevent white walkers reanimating those killed on the battlefield. Perhaps like Buffy she will impart this prayer and the breath of fire to other people (like activating all the slayers) so mass reanimation becomes a realisable objective on the battlefield. Again it might only take one reanimation to make the dead impervious to the WW’s powers as dead men cannot die.

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    28. aldeatcu,

      In the program they prayed. It would have been far more entertaining to see Thoros give Dondarrion a big hot kiss. Mayhaps they are holding off the fiery kiss for Mel and Jon.

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    29. If “Putting something in your belly.” was foreshadowing, then it must have foreshadowed 70% of GoT deaths.

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    30. Niranjan Pandit:
      If “Putting something in your belly.” was foreshadowing, then it must have foreshadowed 70% of GoT deaths.

      No, the foreshadowing part was Alliser walking away after Tormund saying “You must no longer be in charge then”.

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    31. Simon: You are all assuming Jon’s resurrection will happen in front of everyone. Perhaps it won’t.

      Actually I had both scenarios…an immediate rise to the occasion and a delayed rise (the latter scenario, which I prefer). Apologies if I wasn’t clear. In the delayed rise, Mel could be the conduit or Bran/BR or the Night’s King…nobody knows, although I prefer a combo situation where Mel resuscitates his body while Bran and BR work on his brain (red and old gods power combo!). Ghost may play a part too, but only in the books.

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    32. Dragonslayer,

      I have to agree with you. I was beginning to think all we were going to get was these little teasers, but I think now that they are doing these to build the hype for the actual trailer and Season 6. I guess they don’t realize so many of us are already hyped…lol.

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    33. Kit Harington: ‘Look, I’m not in the show any more. I’m definitely not in the new series.’

      It is remarkable how unequivocal he is with this. Not ‘Jon Snow is definitely dead’ (probably true) or even ‘Jon Snow is not in the new series’ (potentially true if he rises as ‘Jon Stark), but rather “I’m definitely not in the new series”. I guess he’s just having fun with it by now, but it must feel slightly uncomfortable having to lie that blatantly in interviews.

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    34. Name *,

      ‘I don’t have a clue. I know how long I’m a corpse for, but I can’t tell you that!’
      LOL he is just playing with people now…love it

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    35. Ginevra: This post is named for the EW article it references.The EW peeps, bless, probably didn’t even realize that ThorneyPooh held any animosity toward Snow, whatsoever.They must have missed every interaction between the two.Ever.ThorneyPants has always considered Snow to be a thorn in his side.

      Well IF this is true why write on something that you are not an authority on? To me that is just bad journalism (if what you are implying is true). IMHO

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    36. Simon:
      Hodors Bastard,

      You are all assuming Jon’s resurrection will happen in front of everyone. Perhaps it won’t. The body could be locked in the ice cells and mysteriously disappear or reanimate unseen. It might be that Ghost is the one to realise Jon is back and causes Mel or Davos to have the cell opened.

      The name Ghost would thus make perfect for Jon would in someways be a ghost.

      It might be that Mel is not the re-animator. Perhaps her “loaded gun” is not for Jon but as a tool to prevent white walkers reanimating those killed on the battlefield. Perhaps like Buffy she will impart this prayer and the breath of fire to other people (like activating all the slayers) so mass reanimation becomes a realisable objective on the battlefield. Again it might only take one reanimation to make the dead impervious to the WW’s powers as dead men cannot die.

      “IF” JS is brought back in any capacity- I simply can not fathom D&D keeping the resurrection “hidden’. I mean that is going to be the most amazing “resurrection” in all of Westerosdom. To deny it being seen by many or even a few would be so anticlimactic in my view. Kinda like when Samwell killed the WW and no one saw except Gilly. A tale is much more worth telling if its been witnessed by many. The different stories of how it came to be can be as fantastic as the person retelling the story and having multiple ppl recount it seems to me would be more “climatic” then NO ONE seeing it. I mean is he just suppose to magically reappear? Then ppl will really think he’s a ghost. And I hope that is NOT the way they would go with the story line.

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    37. Well, I didn’t see much foreshadowing regarding Jon. Maybe something is hinted at regarding Thorne and Tormund- although I hope not.

      For two guys each wishing they had recently killed the other when they had the chance… I’d say they’re doin alright. But damn, Alliser can hold a grudge.

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    38. Ice Spider: Well IF this is true why write on something that you are not an authority on? To me that is just bad journalism (if what you are implying is true). IMHO

      I know, right? EW should let us write their GoT articles.

      Seriously, I exaggerate. I am sorry if I didn’t make that obvious in the original post.

      However, the EW does act like Thorne’s animosity toward the Wildlings and Snow was new information:

      The scene, cut from last season’s fifth episode, highlights the Night’s Watch internal power struggle over how to treat the migrating Wildling army that leads to Thorne orchestrating the death of Lord Commander Jon Snow (Kit Harington).

      But we have these scenes that also highlight the animosity:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_9RukiZ8kI

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    39. Wow, I find it a little scary that the second I saw the title alone I already built an scene in my head where the NW is accusing the Wildlings of killing Jon.
      Tormund is burn at the same pyre they use to send Jon away on his last voyage.
      Since Tormund is the de facto leader of the remaining wildlings, he can be seen as a ‘king’ of sorts, and his death is added to the leftover magic from the last executions(Mance plus Shireen), so Jon is born again with superpowers to boot.
      And my tinfoil hat wasn’t even on.
      This is what happens when the eyes see deleted but the brain interprets it as leaked.

      And then I read the line about season 5 and I came back to reality. Although this one second fantasy shows how much I need my GoT fix before I join fanfiction and start writing my own version of GoT. I need a trailer!

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    40. Ice Spider,

      There is some literary precedent. I think there is a character somewhere in the bible who is dead and then goes missing from the tomb but turns up latter. And when he does runs into his side kicks, they don’t recognise him until he makes it clear who he is. One fellow has to even put his fingers in his wounds to really believe – anti Gnostic propaganda as far as I’m concerned.

      As for GOT and related texts, I still think there could be dramatic tension in having Jon’s bod go missing. It just depends on how they want to play it. There is the problem however that an out right resurrection might look naff. With Danny we saw her walk into the fire but not her transformation. The kiss of fire was not enacted between Thoros and Dondarrion. They didn’t even show us a proper drowned god baptism – sprinkling water instead of drowning and resuscitation. One reason they may not have shown these evens is because they didn’t have the budget, time or simply because making the scene look good may have just been difficult. Some times its best to leave these events to our imagination.

      Also by suggesting he is gone from the tomb I’m not saying there is no dramatic footage. Despite what has happened with BDD I think Jon will be lost in his own anguished liminal wilderness for some time and may not even be a coherent being for some time. It’s this stuff we’ll see, possibly from a POV angel or through wolf dreams. Drama yes but hopefully not cheesy spectacle.

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    41. Hodors Bastard: Thanks for asking.

      Ah, but you always have interesting takes! My own views have modified substantially in our back and forths. It did just occur to me recently that our back-and-forths had left out the northmen element.

      Your point about how BR might wind up pushing the Targ agenda is a good one. Indeed, this might be why he puts the Morning Tower memory into the Pensieve. (Wait, I mixed up something there….)

      But here is yet another alternate take that this puts into my head. What if part of the reason why Melisandre is at the Wall is that BR has somehow foreseen that one of the last scions of House Targaryen might be in danger at the Wall: and his whispering through the trees in the North is what has drawn Mel to stay/return there? That would be a compromise take: Mel does it with R’hllor’s power, but the Old Gods helped get her to where they needed her to be.

      That way, my criticism that they should not have the Old Gods revive the mortally wounded without first showing us that they had such power would be rendered moot, yet the possibility that the Old Gods are involved in Jon’s reviving would still be open.

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    42. Simon: One fellow has to even put his fingers in his wounds to really believe – anti Gnostic propaganda as far as I’m concerned.

      heh, when my Catholic parents tried to force me to be “confirmed,” I was supposed to choose a name for God to use when he told me to go kill infidels in his name (or whatever the heck God was supposed to tell me). I told them “I’ll take Thomas, after the only apostle with a brain.”

      I didn’t get confirmed. 😀

      That written, your example is from a much older storytelling tradition than the modern one to which GRRM adheres. Jon is one of the two biggest characters creating the story. It is not going to be his revival so much as how he reacts to it, and how he reacts to his assassination attempt. I think that MB&W are setting up heavy parallels for Jon and Daeny: both are going to be returning from presumed death at the hands of people that Jon and Daeny were trying to save from themselves. If this does not resonate hugely throughout the remainder of the series, then it’s a colossal waste of literary/cinematic opportunity. But that also means that Jon’s reviving has to be pretty “public” (for the viewer, not necessarily for the characters). Indeed, I am betting that Jon’s initial reactions to not being dead are going to be very, very telling.

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    43. Yes I agree this needs to resonate and yea the audience must witness this. That does not mean that has to be big. I was interested to hear ms Van Houton talking about Melesandra as suffering a crisis of faith. Again think subtle will resonate.

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    44. simon: I was interested to hear ms Van Houton talking about Melesandra as suffering a crisis of faith. Again think subtle will resonate.

      Well, at this point, that could point to a number of things. I doubt that it will be an inability to revive Jon: instead, I suspect she’ll be wondering how she could have misunderstood the flames so badly, and possibly whether her notion that R’hllor and only R’hllor is a “good” and/or “real” god is true.

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    45. Wimsey,

      Jon’s reaction to Mel and her God may also be interesting especially if Jon reiterates Dondarrion’s description of the dark. Unlike Beric Jon might be less inclined to attribute his resurrection to any god from a place of darkness. There is also a slight possibility he might do a Buffy and resent resurrection. Although an embracing of life foresworne previously may well be option aswell.

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    46. simon,

      I completely agree: the Jon that GRRM & B&W have developed will be very skeptical that he’s been recalled from the dead. He obviously will accept that he should be dead, and that Mel’s magic (whatever the source) saved his life. I think that you have the right of it, though: Jon will doubt that the source is some god, and he probably will be very worried that such powerful magic will carry a cost.

      The other upshot is that I really doubt that Jon will go around saying “My vows to the Night’s Watch are done, as I was dead for a bit.” Jon is not the kind of person to look for loopholes: in many ways, his policies and actions reflect someone who closes loopholes. I would not be surprised if Melisandre suggests this: but, then, I doubt that Jon will fully accept Melisandre’s version of events.

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    47. Wimsey,
      Yes Jon will probably see himself as bound by his vow however whether the watch want him to return is another question. I also wonder if a rejection would force him to take his own road. Again and again the conflict between love, duty and pragmatism is played out in this world. Perhaps being rejected by the world of duty will make him into something new.

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    48. Maybe tonight we’ll find out what happened to Ramsay’s bloodthirsty hounds, and their handler, after the Lady of Tarth showed up to save Sansa.

      (I have really got to stop obsessing over that little gaffe.)

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