We expected to hear more news of Game of Thrones filming in Iceland sometime in February, but the fun has kicked off already, with two main cast members sighted at the close of January. Yesterday reports surfaced on social media of Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington being spotted arriving together at the Reykjavík–Keflavík Airport.
Just talked to Kit Harington in Iceland … not impressed 💔😢 #brokemyheart
— Kylie Murakami (@KylieMurakami) January 28, 2018
One fan apparently snapped a photo (Update: thanks to @yeahclarke for providing the source of the original pic!) . Here are Kit and Emilia arriving:
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UPDATE: And then the pair were spotted again today by the same Instagrammer!
Do you ever get the feeling you’re being followed…
A post shared by Ailsa Barrow (@ailsabarrow) on
With crew members arriving in Iceland as well, we can expect filming to begin any moment. It’s a cold and tough environment for shooting, and the show has to work quickly. There’s not a large amount of info about this year’s filming in the country, so we’re left to speculate as to what Jon Snow and Daenerys could be doing in such a snowy, icy locale. After all, wintry Iceland usually serves as places beyond the Wall for Game of Thrones. Could the duo be going back, as dangerous as that is? Or is it possible that with the advent of winter and the march south of the Night King, the frozen landscape we associate with beyond the Wall is coming closer to Winterfell? Just a thought. We’ll keep an eye out for more cast sightings and shooting, as location filming is always an exciting time, and Iceland is a gorgeous place!
If Cersei is attacking WF it makes sense that Daenerys and Jon are beyond the Wall at that moment.
This is around the time of year Iceland starts to have more daylight in the winter so they can shoot more hours.
Jon and Danny arriving in the Icy Winterfell meet with the others or in the Last Heart fighting with their dragons the NK in the first two episodes[before Danny realize that she is prego] …i think The North l =now who the Winter has come for well will look like Iceland in the Winter..icy and very beautiful ..Maybe also there will shooting some fighting scenes on the ice ..who knows..Also there maybe to see some Brans visions with the far North and the Lands of Always Winter ..and the home of the NK [+his past also and how he got defeated in the First Long Night]..Too many possibilities..Kit and Emilia together..such a lovely duo..Jonerys bitches ..all the way.
Its a possibility..but im afraid of this possibility..I hope the bitch does not attack Winterfell..Better the NK going in KL and makes her another one icy zombie[NQ?Thats cool] than the bitch comes to the North..
Artemisia,
Maybe cool it with calling women bitches?
Interesting thought with it being possiblly not Beyond the Wall and just a reflection that winter is stronger now in Westeros proper.
Wouldn’t that mean though they would need to be doing a lot more external shots there and would take a longer time and involve more of the main cast?
My bet is on:
– David Nutter directing;
– this bit being from Episode 4;
– and the general idea being that after some initial kerfuffle, Bran directs Dany and Jon to go Beyond the Wall to the Land of Always Winter (we have to visit it again before the end, don’t we? We only saw it briefly in that one S4 episode…) to search for more information/some McGuffin necessary for the war.
House Monty,
Not if they didn’t have a ton of outside scenes. Most things can be handled on a studio set. Usually it’s the landscape of Iceland itself that’s of interest, though- the lakes and mountainous backdrops along with the snowy grounds, which is why I would still lean more towards it being beyond the Wall. But it’s fun to consider all possibilities.
Artemisia,
I think the NK will take KL early in the season and that will force Cersei to leave. At that point she will be completely mad. Without Jaime, children or the Iron Throne.
She will have an option to go to CR, but she will choose to march on WF to make sure humans won’t win. She won’t care for her life at that point. She will want revenge again the whole world.
I’m not so convinced these scenes will be NOTW… what would the purpose of visiting here be? All the WWs are now in Westeros, unless there’s some key to their downfall there. I’d certainly love to see their lair mind you.
I reckon they’re filming scenes of their travels to WF from White harbour, as the terrain/weather will surely be very similar in the North now. Although, I imagine those scenes would require many extras (and some other key cast members), so it’s really anyones guess…
Please. No more quests beyond The Wall.
I expect this.
I really can’t think of a (good) reason for anyone to go beyond the Wall for the rest of the series. As far as we know on the show the cotf are now all gone so seeking their assistance wouldn’t be possible. If there were a city/home of the NK and the Walkers that could be a reason but we’ve not seen or heard of such a place. Any “key” should have been shared with or seen by Bran previously and/or not requiring a physical presence. North of the Wall is just a frozen, empty wasteland.
I’d say filming in Iceland would be for areas of The North that will now look like beyond the Wall due to the NK bringing the storm.
To refresh everyone’s memory … perhaps Jon & Dany go to the place where the Night King creates White Walkers a la Craster’s baby?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhyLKJgd8Zw
We did. In S4E4.
Dark Sister,
mau,
Yeah, I’m cool with seeing that place in a little more detail I suppose. Maybe this is when WF gets attacked?
Apollo,
If Cersei finds out Dany and Jon are not there (and the NK has taken KL from her) that would be a perfect moment for her to strike.
mau,
I don’t know what I’d call that but it didn’t seem like much, certainly not much of a ‘home.’ It looked more like just a specific location to bring the babies to the NK. Anything is possible… I just don’t foresee another trip beyond the Wall considering the time remaining and the present danger south of it.
Weren’t they checking some Scandinavian countries last year? http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-producers-decide-sweden-norway-play/
Any news on that front? Or are they going to film all those snowy locations in Northern Ireland and Iceland?
mau,
Clob,
Possibly, but I imagine a short round trip NOTW (presumably) on dragonback won’t take too long, so I can’t see Cersei getting wind and mobilising her forces that quickly.
Jon will have scouts all over the North too, so he surely won’t leave WF if he knows they’re coming- this all adds to the uncertainty around this WF siege for me.
I’m feeling tinfoily… I wonder if they’re trying to understand the baby exchange thing. And… we know they may just happen to have a baby on the way… 😝
There are still questions for the viewers (and readers) about the Walkers/Others. There should be many more of them for one. Where are the juveniles? We haven’t seen any half grown Walkers. Is there a goal other than just eliminating all of the living? I have accepted the good possibility that the show will skip showing and answering a lot of it and we’ll have to hope George covers it in the books to come.
There is one excellent reason (and I do mean excellent, no snark here). We’ve only seen the lands of the WW’s *once* in the entire show, in that S4 episode. To have it finish without even once revisiting the place would leave a major gap in the mythology. What’s this place like? Is there, like, a frozen city? A Night Queen, maybe, similar to an insect queen (think bees or ants or the xenomorph from Alien(s))?
I don’t really give a damn about ice dragons under Winterfell or dead Starks or krakens or any other fan theory based on vague ‘hints’ from the books. But this is a piece of the *show’s* lore that has never been revisited again. And it really ought to be.
Apollo,
oh i hope not…Lets give in the NK Cerceis baby for exchange ..you know someone to switch babies and to give the wrong baby to the NK for sacrifice..Cerceis baby instead Dannys baby.
This touches on a problem my Northerner self has with the series, which is that the “winter” scenes always look like a Southern Californian’s notion of winter: The ground is colored white, but otherwise just as flat and passable as ordinary ground. People and horses and wagons stroll along at their normal pace. In the books, Stannis’ army, once it gets to the North, is moving less than a mile a day, floundering through hip-deep snow, abandoning its wheeled vehicles early on and losing dozens of men and animals every day just to the cold and the hardship. That’s what real winter in snowy northern climes is like. If you haven’t ever had to try to walk THROUGH snow rather than ON snow, you won’t get it. I would’ve loved to have seen a scene or two where the North, or north of the Wall, truly present those sorts of exhausting obstacles.
Even though I still think the idea of Cersei marching her army north right in the middle of the “worst winter in a 1000 years” is pretty nonsensical, it would be funny if Cersei were to arrive at Winterfell, only to see Jaime and Tyrion in charge of Winterfell’s defences lol.
Apollo,
Well I certainly hope the story doesn’t go that route. The whole prince who was promised thing ending up the prince who was promised…to the White Walkers. Meh.
Apollo,
You’re not thinking what I think you’re thinking…are you?
That NK already has one of Daeny’s “children.” And now he might want the bun in the oven?
NK: “Gimme your baby, and we’ll call it a draw.”
Firannion,
I’m totally with you on this one. Here’s hoping S8 gives us more realistic wintry scenes.
I mean, the whole cast should’ve really lost their noses and ears to frostbite by now- wear a damn hat, people (I do get why they don’t, of course) 😝
Ten Bears,
Well I’m just being mischievous…but lets sit back and watch this one take shape…😂
Past battles on the show have shown that no one in Westeros believes in basic strategies like having scouts around anymore. That strategy seems to have died along with Tywin and Robb!
Firannion,
I agree.
mau,
The night king is going to skip everywhere else and go straight to kingslanding? Not.
It is possible they are going to where it all started. Maybe there they get the means to kill iceman.
Clob,
“…we’ll have to hope George covers it in the books to come.”
________
I wish you good fortune there will be books to come.
Yaga,
Yeah, those are among the questions we have that we WANT to see and find out. I assume we’ll get those in the books. At this point I’m just not very positive that we will get them all on the show. If there is any kind of “visit” it seems more likely that it will be done through Bran-vision as opposed to other characters physically traveling there. Otherwise, they can finish the story without answering a lot of questions, much to the dismay of some viewers.
ghost of winterfell,
True, also from a strategic point of view- I’m guessing that Tyrion/Davos/Sansa etc. will be having kittens if they both decide to fly off on their own – especially after their last venture NOTW.
I’m assuming things get so desperate for them that they have no choice..
Look, at some point we have to see Baby Wight Daycare, with a bunch of lil zombie tots sitting and smashing dolls and saying “KHUU!!!! KHUU!!!!”
Maybe they’ll just switch. The living escape north of the Wall and let the NK have the south. 😛
Apollo,
I feel you are probably on the right track. I can’t think of any other reason they’d head up there, presumably just the two of them on their own as well. I can’t say for sure that it would be offspring related, but it’s as good a guess as any at this point.
Clob,
But, once again. That’s not a book-vs.-show issue at all. What we saw in S4E4 isn’t in the books. It’s a piece of *the show’s* lore. And we know that DnD are actually excellent about addressing issues they started *on the show*. They tie up all the arcs. They went back to Rickon, to the Hound, to the Blackfish, to Gendry, to Nymeria – sometimes just to kill them off, of course, but they went back to all of them. Always provided closure. They went back to the Iron Bank plot.
I imagine that ever since S4 until the writing of S8, “return visit to the Lands of Always Winter” was in one of their “unfinished plot” docs/folders, and that they left it until S8 to make it something truly special. Because that’s the natural way to do it, to give a teaser and then leave something like this for the last.
Chilli,
Yah, I’d love to learn more about other Scandinavian cinematography too. I always took that report, though, as a 2nd unit collecting background “plates” to be used as vfx composition, and not actual location shoots with actors. So maybe Iceland for limited location shoots and elsewhere for those additional backgrounds. Almost all final shots onscreen are, of course, composites of live actors, physical fx, vfx and cgi. The wider Scandinavia and Nordic countries certainly have an embarrassment of wintry visual riches as can be enjoyed from a comfortable sofa 😁on good nature doccies like the NatGeo Wild series, Nordic Wild.
Yaga,
I agree.
Pigeon,
ABSOLUTELY!
… can we call them Indigo Babies… No? How ’bout GooGoo Dolls👶
ghost of winterfell,
The Lannisters had an inability to scout effectively in S1 when Jaime was captured by Robb Stark.
Yet. We haven’t read about it, yet. Still, what they did on the show was visually clarifying what was happening to Craster’s sons. Craster was a big portion of the Night’s Watch story and they couldn’t really just show them sacrificing his sons for an unknown reason. With that one scene they answered what was happening to them as well as showing how the NK was building/replenishing his cadre of Walkers. They don’t HAVE to show any more despite how much we would like to see more. I am with you and everyone else in wanting more… I just don’t think it’s absolutely required for them to finish the show.
Now, I want to see this ! 😀
I know you’re joking but I have wondered about this, actually… We saw the Night King turn a human baby into a White Walker baby so it would stand to reason that White Walkers have a human-like growing process (even if their “life” expectancy is much longer). Where are the White Walkers children ? And why does the Night King only want male babies ? We know he can turn women into wights so why not turn baby girls into White Walkers too ? Double the numbers, double the fun ! Is the Night King sexist, on top of all his other shortcomings ?
The quest for the McGuffin is a theory I really like indeed. However, one thing puzzles me : why would both Jon and Daenerys have to go ?
I understand using the dragons to get there because it is faster and I understand Daenerys going for she is the one person who has the most experience “piloting” said dragons but Jon seems somewhat superfluous in this scenario. He does not know the geography of the Land of Always Winter better than anyone else so he could not serve as navigator. What would his purpose be, if he did join the ride to the Night King’s “icehenge” ?
Jon and Dany’s trip north of the Wall would also give them more time to be alone and further develop their relationship or to discuss it after they find out the truth about Jon’s parents.
ACME,
“Is the Night King sexist, on top of all his other shortcomings ?”
————-
Yes. Yes, he is. And maybe that will be his undoing, eg, when he ignores that little girl running around on the battlefield thinking it’s no one he has to worry about…
…until her VS dagger blade is slicing through his throat and it’s too late to do anything about it.
Because, as one commenter said recently, nobody expects No One….
Going to Eastwatch
A Certain group of characters may need a Uber ride off the wall
Clob,
I disagree. That scene opened a far bigger can of worms than it closed. If they wanted just to explain some things, they could have had Sam *assume* (say) “he probably gives them to the WW” and leave it at that. That’s roughly where the books are, and what the book readers accepted at the time.
Instead, we were treated to a several-minute journey that was one of the first show-only scenes to appear on screen. Do you remember the uproar that it caused? I do. Of course DnD also do.
Not to mention, they have been steadily building up the WW mythology on the show ever since. What’s the proper way to crown it? Of course with a return visit up North – this time by our heroes.
ACME,
‘Redundancy’ would be a good excuse, I guess? ‘It’s an important mission, we have to make sure that this thing is retrieved, and with two dragons/two riders, we double the chances that it is.’ Also, Dany, for however I love her, has never learned to fight. Chances are, they may have to infiltrate some place that can’t be burned/melted down (heresy, I know).
Not his throat. The back of his knee, in that little gap in the armor – just like Merry Brandybuck. Perfect shout-out to the master of 20th-century fantasy,
Dark Sister,
I hope they do that. I would love to see more details/explanation about the white walker’s lives.
Clob,
Nothing is absolutely required, but if Jon and Dany are going beyond the Wall, it seems that D&D want to tie those loose ends.
I can’t believe that in the 6 remaining episodes people actually want to see Dany and Jon fly off into the icy wastelands beyond The Wall to chase a macguffin or learn more about White Walker society.
Maybe if we had three more seasons remaining, there might be some merit to finding out more about the genocidal ice zombies. But with 6 episodes remaining their purpose should be to threaten mankind, kill some people, then die themselves.
If the producers decide that they’re going to use precious minutes of the 6-9 remaining hours of this fabulous TV show to send the main characters flying off north of The Wall on an infuriatingly contrived and condensed quest, then I think I’ll weep.
Wasn’t Beyond the Wall farcical and illogical enough for everybody? Do we really need a sequel?
I just figured she’d go for the throat because especially after Sandor taught her about the futility of targeting the torso of a man in armor (and he reinforced it with a smack to the face because “every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”), Arya has favored the exposed neck area when inflicting mortal wounds e.g.: Meryn F*cking Trant [sliced throat]; Walder Frey [sliced throat]; and Brienne of F*cking Tarth [practice; dagger to the throat]. Even before that, Polliver and the rude Frey soldier got their necks/throats pierced.
But you may be right. Didn’t Arya strike the exposed back of Brienne’s knee as well? (I don’t think that sparring scene was included in S7e4 just because it looked awesome. I suspect Arya’s signature moves, e.g., the dagger flip, will be shown again in a real battle.)
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I’m with you. How could they justify another beyond the Wall clusterf*ck? Jon: “Uncle Benjen’s still alive! I know he is! I have to go back and save him!” ???
Ten Bears,
How could they justife? Have you read comments before yours?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
It is not about what people want. It is about what they think possible Dany and Jon’s trip north of the Wall could mean.
And perfect time to find out more about the WW is now, not 3 seasons ago, since they are now part of the main plot.
mau,
Yeah I did read the preceding comments. And I am agreeing with Ramsay’s 20th Good Man’s well-reasoned comment at 1:42 pm.
Ten Bears,
You agree with what exactly? That the WW should only remain genocidal ice zombies?
If “winter is truly here”, the North should look like Iceland. And if the winter weather is realistic, as Firannion explained above, even mild snowstorms will make it impossible to travel through a few feet of snow. Unless they use one of the dragons as a glorified snow plow. Which would be boring – for us, and for the dragon.
Super tinfoil hat time BUT
What if Jon has agreed to sacrifice himself in a deal with the whitewalkers to take the role of the new night king.
This is Dany taking him by dragon to the land of always winter in an emotional final goodbye…final shot of heavily pregnant Dany flying away with tears in her eyes and Jon standing dejected as the snow swirls around his head.
*tinfoil hat off
You may very well be right about this; it is indeed a plausible scenario 😉
For my part, and it is an entirely subjective matter of taste, I am not too keen on such a narrative because it is too similar to Eowyn’s “But no living man am I!” (or “I am no man” for the movie fans ^^) in Lord of the Rings.
It is a type of resolution I always find “meh”, if I can be forgiven for the use of the onomatopoeia. The idea that the greatest evil on Earth could get defeated by what amounts to a pun feels thoroughly anti-climactic to me. As if prophecies were insurance contracts and could be “beaten” by using the fine prints at the bottom of page 38…
I remember reading the Eowyn “twist” as a child and disbelievingly telling myself : “so anyone/anything that is not a male human being could have killed the Witch-king ? Any animal, vegetal or mineral could have done the trick ? A bacteria or virus ? Had someone with the flu coughed on him, would it have worked ?”
An easily overlooked being leading do the demise of the big bad villain works in War of the Worlds because there is no prophecy in it and we can believe the aliens know very little of Earth’s ecosystem. But, in fantasy, I have yet to see an occurrence I did not find cheap.
That being said, Game of Thrones may prove me wrong and sell me on it. Who knows ? ^^
That is a very fair point !
However, we mustn’t forget that dragons do not just burn and melt; they can also smash, bite, tear apart and fricassé. All of which sound more intimidating than one man with a sword, even if it made of Valyrian steel. So I am still not certain of what Jon would add to the proceedings, aside from his beautifully coiffed self.
I understand your reluctance but we have to admit that our protagonists still know way too little to defeat the Night King…
We, and the characters, know what kills wights : fire, Valyrian steel and dragonglass.
We, and the characters, kind of know what kills White Walkers : Valyrian steel and dragonglass. Fire does not seem to bother them that much.
We, and the characters, are somewhat in the dark in regards to the Night King : dragon fire seems to leave him thoroughly unimpressed so it would not be bizarre for Valyrian steel (allegedly forged by dragon fire) to have no effect on him either. That leaves us with dragonglass but he already has a chunk of it lodged in his heart so who knows whether that would be truly efficient…
More information is required. Now, admittedly, a trip north of the Wall is not the only way such intel can be gathered (Bran-O-Vision could help a lot) but the idea that some time needs to be dedicated to figuring out the Others some more is not completely extravagant, I believe.
mau,
Actually, I do not agree that the White Walkers are merely “genicidal ice zombies.”
I just don’t think another excursion beyond the wall for our heroes is the reason for the Iceland filming. Like I said a few minutes ago, the entire North should look like Iceland at this juncture. Or else “winter is here” just means “it’s a little chilly; don’t forget your sweater.”
ACME,
“For my part, and it is an entirely subjective matter of taste….”
———–
I know, and recognize I’m being entirely subjective too. If it were up to me, Jon and Daeny would take a back seat to Sandor and Arya in S8. I know that won’t happen of course. Still, there would’ve been no reason to give Arya a Chekhov’s VS dagger in S7 unless she was going to “fire” it in S8.
That’s the thing… I’m not sold on filming being done in Iceland as proof that ANYone is going beyond the Wall. I think there’s a better chance they just need the climate to use for The North as it should be in similar condition with the NK invading. The discussion is simply about the reason why they could have scenes beyond. In my personal opinion there isn’t a reason (good enough to spend precious show time on) for anyone to physically go when they have Bran-vision. Certainly a reason could be introduced, but that’s just speculation. I feel like the NK turning a baby scene was an answer as opposed to wanting to create more questions. Intrigued minds like ours want more, but again, it’s not necessary to complete the show.
Logic, schmogic. I like my Tolkien homage scenario and, unlike Acme, rarely find those kinds of ironic verbal twists cheesy. They have an ancient and honorable history in folklore and mythology. Case in point: Odysseus – the original Noman/No One – and Polyphemus.
Consider, also, that the NK seems to favor the role of cavalry commander. If he’s on horseback when Arya gets her chance to sneak up on him, his throat may be way out of her reach.
Yaga,
ACME,
Beside the reasons already mentioned, I mean this is Jon Snow we are talking about. Do you really think he would let Daenerys fly without him straight into the lion’s den heavy with child on top of that? No way!
She “fired” that gun in S7E7.
Firannion,
“Logic schmogic.” I like that. 😋
And yes, good point about NK’s preference for the role of cavalry commander on the back of a horse – and now, aerial commander on the back of a dragon.
Perhaps his hubris will get the better of him, and he’ll dismount for another “Hey, check me out” moment like he did on the edge of the dock at the end of “Hardhome.” Though I’d also like to see (*dons Arya-centric tinfoil helmet 👨🚀👸🏻*) Arya scampering up behind him just as he’s about to hurl an ice javelin; slicing his hamstring; and plunging her VS dagger into his windpipe a la Polliver.
Sorry. I’ll stop now.
Thats why they have Cercei pregnant and not killed still..because Cerceis baby will turned by the NK to a WW baby instead of Dannys baby girl …It would be a dwarf baby boy that will give it by Cercei herself to him..when he arrives in KL ..because she will wants to avenge Jaime for leaving her with that way..and will make a deal with the NK to be allies and both defeat their enemies..but he also will kill her and resurrecting her as his NQ..He knows who is the real villain there..and knows that its Cercei..I cant wait for their shocking meeting..and Cerceis reaction to him..It will be fun to see it.
I don’t think the NK is the type to make deals with anyone.
I agree
ACME,
All we need to know is how to kill the Night King and, possibly, why the White Walkers have returned. This may also coincide with why the dragons are reborn and perhaps if/why they need to die too. Whatever.
But I really don’t think we need a contrived dragon’s-eye tour of WhiteWalkersville to get to the bottom of that.
As you say, that sort of knowledge can be garnered through Branipedia or a Sam Tarly research montage.
If four episodes into the remaining six, Bran suddenly pipes up with, “we need to destroy the Night’s Altar or something” and Jon and Dany go swooshing off up there faster than the speed of light, Beyond the Wall style, then that’ll really stink.
There are six episodes left out of seventy-three
If we’d learnt more about the White Walkers in the preceding 67-ish hours of TV, had the macguffin been lurking in the background the whole time or the story been building towards some type of ‘destroy the mothership’ quest, then I could tolerate it.
But if we get some contrived nonsense out of the blue in the final six episodes, I would be very disappointed.
It’s nowhere near confirmed though, so I still have hope.
I don’t get why people think Arya will kill the Night King. She’s not the only one with a valyrian steel weapon. Jaime and Brienne will both be North with the two parts of Ice. I guess that will be important too. And in the books there’s another important sword that might bring the Dawn after the Long Night. I think all the valyrian steel weapons will be important to kill the others.
Jon somehow has to do something important. Otherwise all the people who died in Robert’s rebellion have died for nothing. And otherwise the Lord of Light could have left him dead.
Seeing it play out is much better than a quick montage. We have directors this season that can make this excellent.
These nonsensical baby x night king theories are the worst.
Maybe it has been lurking in the background all along. Maybe we have already seen the pertinent Bran revelation: Insert dragonglass shard into human heart, activate Night King. Ergo, remove shard, deactivate Night King (also, presumably, his undead minions). If that sounds too easy and too obvious, check in with Brother Occam over in the Complaints Department.
Seems like Gwen, Kristofer, Iain, Joe and John are all travelling together, so seems more likely these scenes aren’t in fact NOTW, but in the North.
https://twitter.com/jorywea/status/958060167534399488?ref_src=twcamp%5Eshare%7Ctwsrc%5Eios%7Ctwgr%5Ecom.apple.UIKit.activity.Message
Me too ..but with Cercei everything is unpredictable ..
Chilli,
It’s possible that Jon was brought back for a reason other than killing the NK.
Personally, I’m not sure who I think will take out the NK, but I think the theory that Arya will do it comes from the fact that the NK has the dragonglass dagger in his heart, and Arya has been told repeatedly about “where the heart is”. I’m sure someone else can chime in if there’s more to it.
Firannion,
Yeah. Cool. I’d be fine with something like that. As long as the last minute contrivances are kept to a minimum and stretch credibility as little as possible.
So Kit and Emilia have arrived in Iceland then – Its a beautiful country for sure, but too bloody cold for me! They’re welcome to it 😛
I did consider that, except after LF’s various denials of and explanations for his possession of the dagger; his decision to bring it to WF and present it to Bran which would be inexplicable if LF had anything to do with hiring and arming the catspaw assassin; his professed ignorance when Bran asked who it belonged to vs. the false story he told to Cat that it was his dagger but he’d lost it in a bet with Tyrion; I could not understand LF’s connection, if any, to the attack on Bran. (I thought the Lannisters (Cersei, Joffrey or Jaime) had to be behind it. LF was too far away at the time, and the Lannisters had clear motives.)
Therefore, I didn’t view that dagger being hung of fired for killing LF. (I tried for a while to understand the “charges” against LF at his “trial.” None of them should’ve stuck, and the dagger lie accusation made little sense. In fact, the one demonstrable crime of treason they could’ve nailed him on wasn’t brought up at all.)
Besides, Arya could’ve taken out LF with Needle – through his eye and out the back of his skull, or a slice of the jugular.
I assumed and still assume that with the dearth of VS weapons, the dagger’s got to be “fired” against a WW. Plus, there’s still that unexplained illustration of the dagger in the book Sam and Gilly were checking out at the Citadel. (I’m thinking that book will reveal the dagger’s provenance from Old Valyria, including its ownership by Visenya Targaryen. (👨🚀🤖))
Besides. Arya’s blasé reaction to executing LF – as if she were merely switching on the dishwashing machine on her way out the door – didn’t seem commensurate with the VS weapon hype on the show, eg, disintegrating White Walkers into pixie dust.
Firannion,
“Maybe it has been lurking in the background all along. Maybe we have already seen the pertinent Bran revelation: ..”
—————-
Oh, I think we have already seen all of the pertinent revelations and information. Chekhov and William of Occam would tell us that with 67 out if 73 episodes already aired, all the guns have already been hung and all of the clues have been planted. To expect the answers to be waiting at the end of a Magic Carpet ride beyond the wall to WhiteWalkerville Nursery School would be condemned as a deux ex machina,
Having said that, if it turns out S1 – S 7 was merely a setup for IncestBabyBowl 3D in S8, aka Battle of the 3 Bastards, I will choke down my vomit:
Baby Sam (& White Walker Half-Brothers)
vs.
Baby Eddard Targaryen or Baby Visenya Targaryen (& parents Aegon 2.0 and Daenerys Targaryen)
vs.
Baby Tyvek™ Lannister (& Queen Cersei Lannister and Uncle Q)
So I once again register my despair over the possibility that the final season will devolve into unplanned pregnancies and baby dramas.
Someone at Freefolk just posted a photo of Brienne, Sam, Tormund, Jorah and Gendry – taken at an airport a few hours ago. No mention of which airport it is…heading to Iceland maybe?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
IMO, the explanation of the filming in Iceland is the most simple: at some point late in the season (Ep 5 or 6) the Night King will have no other way out but to flee (fly) back to his den and to hide under ice for the next millenia. Sure, Jon will chase him to pevent that and Dany may go after him. In other words, Iceland should see the final Jon vs the NK one-on-one. IMO, that will happen near the mountain shaped as an arrowhed: last season the showrunners made an emphasis on that but there was no real payoff (except of the fact that the nerds identified the mountain with the one seen at the location of the NK creation); therefore both the mountain as the location marker and the location itself should come into play in the last season. What I really wonder about now, is whether Vladimir Furnik aka the Night King can be spotted in Iceland, too, though on the other hand the actual fight will most probably be filmed agains the greenscreen in the studios and Iceland will be used only for “Jon&Dany searching for the NK” scenes.
As for Arya, I agree that she will play a pivotal role in the NK’s demise but hardly she’s gonna be the actual killer – she may play Howland Reed and wound the NK giving Jon the opportunity to finish him. Though it may be visa versa too: Jon will wear the NK to the limit and then Arya will grant him the gift of death.
Now you’ve done it. I’m going to have to go scour the appendices of The World of Ice and Fire for some obscure House Lannister scion named Tyvek™. There absolutely has to be one!
So filming in Iceland in the middle of winter is too California for you?
Geez.
I keep thinking the Hound will get Heartsbane since that Valyrian Steel went north too.
kathy,
It looks like Belfast airport to me
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Nope. Read the back thread. Jeez
Wait! Are you saying that we should buy at face value what LF, the Father of Lies, says? Of course he’s lying when he told Bran he ignored who owned the dagger! It’s certainly his and of course he’s going to lie about it! The Lannisters had nothing to do with the failed attempt to kill Bran… And it surely was LF the one that hired that assassin to further tense the relationship between the Lannisters and the Starks. He didn’t need to be at Winterfell. He could just hire the assassin and instruct him to try to kill one of the younger Starks once the royal cortege left Winterfell and left the dagger there. The assassination attempt failed but the it didn’t matter, the suspicion (seeded by the letter Lysa sent from the Vale) flourished.
And the rest is history: Cat travels to King’s Landind where LF fools her into believing that the dagger was Tyrion’s. Cat abducts Tyrion at the inn and the whole conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks sparks.
Why LF gives the dagger to Bran? Simply, to ingratiate himself with him (as Sansa remarks, LF is not a generous man and would not give a gift without wanting something in return). Bran is supposed to be the Lord of Winterfell and of course LF would want to fawn over him in order to gain some influence. Unbeknownst to LF, Bran is beyond the politics of Westeros and has no intention to resume his duties as Lord of Winterfell.
Needle doesn’t have enough blade to slice a throat nor is it strong enough to pierce a skull… Besides, there’s a “poetic justice” (for lack of a better term) in LF being killed by the same dagger that initiated the whole conflict (see my previous response). And also, the same way that Cat died, the woman whom LF claimed he loved and yet betrayed.
You might be better off checking Office Depot or Amazon under “Office Supplies.” I filched Tyvek™ from Tyvek envelopes. It sounded like a Lannister name. 🤓
Juri,
The timing and geography just doesn’t work for LF to have learned about the defenestration and crippling of Bran, and then sent his dagger with an assassin from KL to WF. Unless two laden ravens carried the dagger between them, in which case we get into Monty Python & The Holy Grail laden swallows & physics territory.
Besides. lying to Bran that he didn’t know who the dagger belonged to wasn’t a capitol offense. And the way the question was phrased, LF could’ve said “I thought you meant originally, or after I lost it to Tyrion; who knows what he did with it; that was years ago.”
If I missed something, please let me know. Because if LF supplied the (attempted) murder weapon he’d be a moron to stroll around with it at WF and give it to his intended victim as a “gift.” Anyone with half a brain would’ve sold it or tossed it in the ocean.
Hmmm. I figured Sam will give Heartsbane to his new buddy Jorah, and that Sandor will get one of the two swords reforged from stolen Stark ancestral sword Ice. But if Beric’s not around anymore to reach him the flaming sword ignition trick, then I’m not so sure.
It doesn’t matter whether LF knew about Bran’s defenestration or not… He could just have instructed the assassin to kill one the Stark boys once the royal cortege left Winterfell… The fact that Bran was unconcious was a freebie for the would-be assassin, it would be easier to kill him than to chase Rickon, for instance. But Cat and Summer were there and he was unsuccessful in killing Bran… LF was successful in creating more chaos though. Why would a hired assassin be given such expensive dagger if not to falsely incriminate someone else?
LF´s two-pronged plan: 1)- create suspicion by making Lysa send a letter to Cat warning about the evil Lannisters; and 2)- hire an assassin (attempt to) kill one of the younger Starks shortly after the evil Lannisters left in order to spark a conflict between those families.
May I be so bold as to unite both Arya and Sandor in a final twist and say that the reason why Arya was given the dagger could have been so that she would gift it to the Hound ?
She heard him say he always wanted a Valyrian steel weapon and they parted on “ambiguous” terms, to say the least; her gifting him something he always wanted would be a beautiful way to thank him for all his (harsh) mentoring.
Also, it would continue the “musical chairs” routine of this dagger : Littlefinger bought it, then Robert Baratheon won it on a bet, then Joffrey stole it to give to his assassin, then Catelyn took it from the assassin and brought it back to Littlefinger; a few years later, Littlefinger gave it to Bran who gave it to Arya who kinda gave it to Sansa who then gave it back and Aya used it to kill Littlefinger. I do not think any other weapon has gone from owner to owner nearly as often as this one. One last change would be fitting ! ^^
As for the subjectivity, that’s what we are all here for and it is awesome ! 😉
I, very much like you, would not mind someone other than Daenerys or Jon to kill the Night King just to change things up a bit. It would be odd, to be fair, for Jon not to do it given how intense his history with the Zombie Head Honcho is but why the hell not ?
My personal pick for unlikely world saviour would be Jaime, I have to admit. And yes, the reason why I would choose him is mainly the pun. Jaime has had to live in infamy due to his “kingslaying” for most of his adult life so it would be ironic for him to become celebrated and honoured for slaying another king.
It is to be noted that D&D do love a deus ex machina though…
So I once again register my despair over the possibility that the final season will devolve into unplanned pregnancies and baby dramas.
The Westerosi remake of Juno is upon us. Tremble, mortals !
If he does a little shoulder shimmy as well, I can get behind that 100% ! ^^
You are entirely right to point out that the “pun wins the day” idea is a time-honoured topos.
If I may qualify my “meh” feeling, I do not mind it when Odysseus does it because a) there is no prophecy so the gods themselves do not behave like they are bound by the letter of the law instead of its spirit; b) Polyphemus is a very secondary villain at best; he is uncannily dangerous to Odysseus and his men, it is true, but in the great scheme of things, he is just a big one-eyed bloke who takes care of his sheep (and eats people…) so him being conned by a pun does not devalue the all-mightiness of the gods’ dangerosity, and c) Odysseus ends up beind punished for his metis (and his hubris) with a ten-year series of tribulations.
So, to me, there is a scale :
– minor and none-too-bright villain defeated by a pun : no problem !
– “accidentally” pun-y resolution whose irony goes broadly unackowledged by the characters : no problem either !
– prophesy voided by a pun that is celebrated in-universe by the characters : meh (to me).
“Have you tried unplugging and replugging your Night King ?”
Joke aside, this outcome is indeed the most probable and I, for one, am perfectly fine with it. It adds an extra layer of difficulty to an already pretty tough task : managing to stab the Night King is pretty hard but getting near enough (yet safely enough) for long enough to rip something out of his chest… Now, that’s a challenge ! Especially considering that the Night King has never been seen without his armour.
Unless season 8 is the season when the Night King, delirious with hubris, decides to go full Putin (or Fabio without the hair) and rides an undead Viserion shirtless… I think I have just talked myself into loving this idea !
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
“…had the macguffin been lurking in the background the whole time”
————————-
It has been.
Um… I know what Tyvek is, you silly person. That’s why I left in the trademark. I built a house. Before they started making tearproof envelopes out of it, it was developed as a ‘house wrap’ vapor barrier.
My friend is adamant that in order to stop the Nights King Jon and team will need to go North of the wall to the land of always winter. Could they maybe find a solution under Bran’s guidance? Remember the scene where Crasters son was turned, in some sort of ice palace? What if they are going there for some reason?
I’m loving that none of us seem to know anything and nobody predicted this!
Thou shalt seek the Big Dumb Object (of Doom, preferably) !
That is a good point. After all, we already got a suprise “destroy the mothership” quest when we found out that killing a White Walker kills all his creatures. So now the whole plot is “kill the Night King” not just because he is the main meanie but also because dispatching him will eliminate every last one of his minions.
Littlefinger is one of my favourite characters so I am obviously biased here and my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt… That being said, I cannot subscribe to the idea that Littlefinger orchestrated Bran’s assassination attempt. The narrative beauty of the Lannister/Stark conflict is that, while it was entirely setup by Baelish, it almost immediately took a life of its own, beyond its architect’s control.
Baelish’s plan was for the Starks to hate the Lannisters, believing them guilty of Jon Arryn’s murder. Yet, the Lions and the Direwolves started hating each other for many other and more personal reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with Littlefinger’s apple of discord !
Ned hated and despised Jaime for being smug and a traitor; Jaime hated and despised Ned for being a holier-than-thou prick; Arya hated Joffrey for being a murderous toddler; Joffrey hated Arya and Sansa for knowing he was nothing more than a big crybaby; Arya hated Cersei for demanding the death of a direwolf…
On top of those interpersonal feuds, more collective animosities developed after Bran’s “accident” : the Starks knew one of the Lannisters had to be responsible for Bran’s fall and the Lannisters feared one of the Direwolves would figure out the incestuous affair between Jaime and Cersei.
In a beautiful and strange twist of fate, Baelish’s plan worked but not in the way he had necessarily planned it for the Starks and the Lannisters did most of the feuding for their own reasons.
Furthermore, I have to admit I like the idea of Joffrey ordering the hit on Bran (this theory is mentioned in the books but I think the show never used it). Joffrey’s main drive was to please his “daddy”; he was desperately eager to be like his illustruous father, to emulate and satisfy him. A paternal pat on the head was something he yearned for to a moving degree. So the notion of him overhearing a drunk Robert compare a crippled Bran to an injured horse needing to be put down and deciding, in his pettily cruel mind, that he is going to have Bran “put down” to please his piece of lard of a father figure fits.
It is utterly pathetic but that is precisely why it fits. Because Joffrey was, under all the layers of dangerosity, a fundamentally pathetic soul. Like Ramsay.
Firannion,
Geez. I am so sorry! I did assume you would know what Tyvek is, especially with the trademark symbol I affixed, and I should’ve clarified my comment to expressly acknowledge that you’d know.
My bad. 😟
ACME,
“So now the whole plot is “kill the Night King” not just because he is the main meanie but also because dispatching him will eliminate every last one of his minions.”
————
But when Beric proposed doing just that, Jon replied: “You don’t understand.”
I still have no clue why Jon said that.
Anybody know?
ACME,
You’ve made very eloquent arguments. Yet I remain unconvinced. I find it hard to buy the idea that Joffrey (pathetic as he was) would order the hit on Bran to satisfy his father. I don’t remember Joffrey craving his father attention (though I will admit it’s been a while since the last time I read the books). Furthermore, why would he lose his family’s only Valyrian steel weapon (neither the Lannisters nor the Baratheons possessed Valyrian steel swords.
ACME,
“Especially considering that the Night King has never been seen without his armour.
Unless season 8 is the season when the Night King, delirious with hubris, decides to go full Putin (or Fabio without the hair) and rides an undead Viserion shirtless… I think I have just talked myself into loving this idea !”
—————————-
Well, especially in earlier seasons some of the WWs were dressed like aging surfer bums or hippie refugees from Woodstock, with long silver hair and wearing just a loincloth. The WW Sam zapped and the cave drawing WWs had the same beachwear attire. I think the head- bowling WW series opening segment also went for the Putin look.
I’ve wondered if there’s a reason the Hardhome WWs and His Grace himself had fine leather boots, slacks, and shirts.
Juri,
I thought there was some veiled discussion between Jaime and Cersei about the assassination attempt. I’ll have to look.
ACME,
“May I be so bold as to unite both Arya and Sandor in a final twist and say that the reason why Arya was given the dagger could have been so that she would gift it to the Hound ?
__________________
The only way I would accept that is if Sandor overcomes his fear of fire and is horribly burned saving the world, or Arya and Sansa, and he begs Arya to put him out of his misery – assuring the girls they’ve given him some happy memories.
“F*ck it. I’m ready. Remember where the heart is?” Both girls bawl their eyes out, but Arya has the courage to grant him his wish.
So begins the legend of The Last Hero.
Anything other than that, and I won’t see it because I will have thrown a brick through my TV before she gives “the gift” to him.
A couple things I’m certain of is that there’ll be an aerial dragon fight, and a dragon attacks a city. We haven’t seen either of those two things yet.
It’s only a matter of deciding where and how it happens. Which city does the dragon attack? Winterfell or King’s Landing, or both. I know Dany’s got a beef with the Night King for killing her baby, Viserion. Wait ’till she finds out that it’s been turned into a walker. Dragons are not slaves, remember? Jon was really upset for Dany when the NK killed her dragon. So he’ll want vengeance for her sake.
We know from the vision that the Red Keep’s roof is burned off. Does Dany do that or does the NK and Viserion do it. As for the aerial battle, does it happen with people on the ground observing, or does it happen in a wilderness so there are not distractions to what will be a showstopper moment. But, if Dany prevails and the NK loses his mount, then what? He’s stuck in the middle of nowhere without transportation? Gee, I dunno. So I’m back to there’s definitely going to be an aerial battle and an attack on a city.
..and another thing, they’ve been teasing the ‘Great War’ for so long now. I expect to see a Great War, indeed. I expect a knock-down-drawn-out melee, with multiple factions battling each other with no decisive outcome until the very end.
And, can a ‘Great War’ be limited to a single location like Winterfell? That would be called a ‘Battle’ I think a ‘Great War’ is like a ‘World War’, something that is devastating to an entire continent. I think it has to ravage the entire landscape of Westeros with elements of Essos thrown in. I expect them to fight it out from North to South.
ACME,
I am sorry! Complete Freudian slip on my end! I misread your scenario about Arya giving Sandor the dagger as “a gift.”
You wrote: “‘May I be so bold as to unite both Arya and Sandor in a final twist and say that the reason why Arya was given the dagger could have been so that she would gift it to the Hound ?
I completely misread the words “she would gift it to the Hound” as “give the gift to the Hound,”
And having re-read what you wrote carefully, …I like it! He did always want some VS.
One of my ultra thick tinfoil scenarios would be fortified if Sandor is given one of the to swords reforged from Ice, but I need not harp on that.
My (uneducated) guess is that Beric’s proposal was all enthusiasm and no planning; he was in “let’s go guys, don’t stop believing !” mode and wanted to make a big push for it. Conversely, Jon was being cautious because he knew it would not be that simple, that he and his men would die before they could get within 500 feet of the Night King. Jon may not yet know how to kill the ZombieMaker but he knows him, so to speak : he knows he is powerful and, worse than that, he knows there is intelligence, intention and planning behind those neon blue eyes. The Night King resurrected hundreds of wildlings in front of him to taunt him !
The Night King is a glorified death machine, it is true. He does what the Children of the Forest engineered him to do, namely kill humans. But there is something cunning about him, something that is beyond the purely mechanical. He observes, he strategises and he adapts. So Jon knew that Beric’s “plan”, basically charging at the Night King with gusto, was not going to cut it.
They are getting ready to conquer the world ! They are on a date with destiny; they want to look spiffy ^^
Ha ha ! That is perfectly fine 😀
Though I think it has to be noted that, so far, each owner of the dagger only got one use out of it at most : Littlefinger only used it once, against Ned, and the assassin only used it once, against Bran… Now that Arya has used it once too, against Littlefinger, it may be time to pass it around.
In the books, Jaime addresses Joffrey’s desperation rather frontally by describing him as “a child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot (Cersei) let him believe was his father”. On the show, Joffrey’s sadness at Robert’s death and his “my father won the real war” tantrum served a similar purpose, I believe.
Now, I completely get why you are unconvinced. To the best of my recollection, the show does not mention the Joffrey theory in relation to Bran’s assassination attempt at all and, in the books, Tyrion deduces that Joffrey must have done it and Jaime reluctantly agrees but no hard evidence is ever given, aside from the fact that Littlefinger did seemingly lose the dagger on the day of the tourney (Jaime remembers Robert Baratheon holding the dagger by the end of it).
All my apologies for being flippant but… Because Joffrey is dumb as a bag of rocks ? ^^
Also, we have to take into account the fact that Joffrey never thought the assassin would get caught or killed. So he probably gave the bloke his daddy’s best (and snazziest looking) dagger thinking he would get it back once the deed was done. He did not plan on Catelyn and Summer putting up a fight.
Ha ha ! No need to apologise at all ! My turn of phrase was confusing anyway 😉
ACME,
I agree and just because they are going on the trip doesn’t mean it’ll take a entire episode like S7, we have to also remember GRRM has said before he doesn’t agree with stories that have a big battle that wins the day and saves everyone so whatever Mission their on could be vital to defeating the night King in a different manner than simply a sword in his heart
Ten Bears,
That was after Jon Arryn’s Death and they shared looks when Tyrion said Bran survived the fall but I don’t recall them talking about the assasination attempt on Bran
For the most part, you’re right. But the Wildlings did use Orell and his Eagle to do some scouting. And I think Robb mentioned scouts while discussing strategy-making in the early seasons. You could even say Jon was sent to observe the Wildlings with Quorin Halfhand.
ACME,
“Littlefinger gave it to Bran who gave it to Arya who kinda gave it to Sansa who then gave it back and Aya used it to kill Littlefinger. I do not think any other weapon has gone from owner to owner nearly as often as this one. One last change would be fitting !”
Good job you noticed that. I wrote an elaborate theory about that but have been reluctant to publish it. I believe Arya will probably give it to her beloved Jon, hopefully once she’s used it against WWs. I suspect this will happen when she learns he’s a Targ, because it is a Targaryen weapon. Unless there is another Lightbringer, with its history, unusual materials and strong Stark/Targaryen connections, Catspaw may have the magic necessary to kill the NK…which is Jon’s destiny, no doubt.
””Good job you noticed that. I wrote an elaborate theory about that but have been reluctant to publish it. I believe Arya will probably give it to her beloved Jon, hopefully once she’s used it against WWs.I suspect this will happen when she learns he’s a Targ, because it is a Targaryen weapon. Unless there is another Lightbringer, with its history, unusual materials and strong Stark/Targaryen connections, Catspaw may have the magic necessary to kill the NK…which is Jon’s destiny, no doubt.””’
We have pay to much attention on that Jon AA..kill the NK and everything OK..I doubt if there will be a real AA and a literal Lightbringer..They are metaphors..Jon is the Lightbringer of Rhaegar[AA] and Lyanna[Nissa Nissa].
People are criticising why a trip beyond the wall again may be needed but equally this could be something GRRM told them happens at the end, we don’t know. This could be them finding out about the origins or this could be them sacrificing their baby or one another to bring long term peace.
My guess given that we know Jon will return to kings landing at some point is this could be the baby being sacrificed by Jon and Dany near the end of the story in a desperate attempt to save everyone but it equally could be one of them.
I hope not…Jon or Danny or both will sacrifice themselves for that baby be live in the end..Still somehow i hope Cerceis baby get sacrificed for this purpose you said..Cerceis baby has also Targaryen/Valyrian blood [she and Jaime are Targaryen bastards]..Someone to switch babies and to sacrificed the wrong baby instead of Dannys/Jon..Danny already sacrificed one for Drogos life and for the Dragons ..Will not make sense if she looses another one baby as a sacrifice.Its better Cerceis baby to be sacrificed for this purpose.
ghost of winterfell,
Oh hell yeah, now you got me almost liking the idea of a seige on our most loved castle just to see Jamie and Tyrion Stark side and Cercei’s face when confronted by them 🙂
Ten Bears,
Hmm. Maybe the baby needs to grow up and ride the undead Viserion for…..reasons lol.
Jon Snowed,
Jon & Dany won’t be alone beyond the Wall: there is the whole Dream Team gathering in Iceland.
Thanks Inga, I wasn’t aware of that as I’m trying to avoid specific plot spoilers, sounds very interesting though and even more intriguing on where this will go!
ACME,
Didn’t MacBeth use a similar twist ? Something about a prophecy that gave MacBeth false confidence he’d be invincible because “no man of woman born” could ever defeat him? And it turned out the guy who did beat him had been delivered by C-section or something? (It’s been too long; maybe I screwed that up.)
Ten Bears,
Abso-bloody-lutely ! As Firannion pointed out, the “pun saves the day” idea is a trope as old as literature itself. And Shakespeare looooved his puns. He loved them with a passion and he put as many of them as humanly possible in his plays. It also happens that, for my taste, his puns rank from the utterly brilliant (“Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by the sun of York”) to the worst kind of dad jokes that make me groan audibly (Cassion : Doth thou hear, my honest friend ? / Clown : No, I hear not your honest friend, I hear you)
The prophecy in Macbethh, if taken literally, makes me roll my eyes. Hard. Not only because it implies that fate is defeated by a pun but also because no matter what he says, Macduff was born of a woman; passing through the birth canal is not the only way to be born.
Therefore, I very much prefer to interpret the Three Sisters’ prophecy as a self-fulfilling one : they tell Macbeth what he needs/wants to hear to give him the confidence to kill the king and they make him believe he is indestructible so he has no fear. To create more “double, double toil and trouble”. And Macduff’s method of birth is ultimately irrelevant, for anyone could have killed Macbeth in the right circumstances. But it is of course just my interpretation 😉
You should ! I am certain it is very interesting !
That intrigues me a lot. I do not recall it being referred to as a Targaryen weapon. It is dragon-y, so to speak, because it is made of Valyrian steel and has a hilt of dragonglass (dragonbone in the books) but I cannot remember any allusion to it having belonged to the Targaryens.
A drawing of the dagger appeared in the book Gilly was reading at the Citadel but, unless I am mistaken (which is definitely a possibility), the text did not state the dagger itself was a Targaryen weapon; it simply said that Targaryens enjoyed using dragonglass as decoration for their weapons and that Great Houses and rich people imitated them.
I was rewatching season 3 last night and stumbled upon some information that I had forgotten about. Not sure if they will ever discuss this again, but Craster told LC Mormont (when the Night’s Watch was retreating back to the Wall after the Fist of the First Men) that (right when Gilly’s baby was born) he just had his 99th son.
99 sons given to the Others… will we ever see these sons? Of course it has still yet to be seen how quickly these babies grow up, if at all, but it would be nice to see what happened to them. I know this has been discussed at length throughout these comments, but the actual number of Craster’s offspring given to the WW wasn’t presented.
I will require a tinfoil hat for this one… but what if this expedition Beyond the Wall does happen, after Bran figures out that the weapon to defeat the Night King was lost somewhere North? Perhaps the First Hero Azor Ahai lost it up there the first time? Or he never had it and that is why he couldn’t defeat the NK for good. Maybe the NK has this magical weapon to defeat himself, and he is being smart and left it behind in the Lands of Always Winter guarded by many other White Walkers (Craster’s kids).
After Bran learns of this, he tells Jon and Dany and they both head North to retrieve it. Jon accompanies Dany because he is a hero and why would he ever let his love go on this mission by herself? Well, turns out he’ll be pretty useful because he must use Longclaw to fight 99 or so White Walkers defending the end-all weapon. And maybe Dany will get to use a drangonglass dagger or the Catspaw dagger to help out.
Little chance of this happening, I’ll admit… I guess I’ll take off my tinfoil hat now.
Theoretically, if this happens I wonder if the horn they found in season 2 along with the dragonglass could be that weapon you speak of.
Jaehaerys,
I also did not read the next article that states a bunch of other cast members were seen in Iceland… well there goes my theory. I guess this is most likely just some Wintery scenes South of the Wall.
Or… Jon and a dozen of his best warriors are the only ones left to fight the war. Everyone else has been reanimated by the Night King. Just as Azor Ahai did 8,000 years ago, Jon, his remaining 12 disciples and his loyal Direwolf trudge through the Lands of Always Winter (maybe the entire continent of Westeros is now the Lands of Always Winter now that the Long Night has come?) to find and defeat the Night King. The Night King picks off his companions one-by-one until it is only Jon, and against all odds Jon triumphs and defeats him. He is truly the second coming of Azor Ahai.
Obviously this is even less plausible but something I could actually see happening in the books. The populous of Westeros probably won’t die, but I could see everything else happening as the books have discussed this legend in detail a couple of times.
Mr Derp,
I had totally forgot about that. The horn didn’t show up in the show though, right? I know it was described in the books, and my first thoughts were that this was actually the Horn of Joramund and they would figure that out eventually, especially because Mance supposedly had this horn but no one ever blew it so we weren’t positive that Mance was correct (speaking of Mance’s horn… where did that end up after Stannis attacked the Wildlings?). And then you have Euron’s Dragonbinder horn that may or may not actually be the right horn. So many horns, I’m thinking maybe some of them have the wrong horns and this will cause some unwanted outcomes.
Anyway, to get back to the show… were the dragonglass daggers that Sam found at the Fist wrapped up in the Night’s Watch cloak like they were in the books? If they weren’t, maybe they were left behind by the First Hero or one of his disciples.
Jaehaerys,
The shows seems to be eliminating both horns since there hasn’t even been a word about Dragonbinder nor the Horn of Joramun and we’re essentially at the climax of the story. Some were just guessing the horn with the dragonglass cache was the Horn of Joramun but nothing came of it.
As it concerns the Dragonbinder… GOOD! Stupid plot device in the books. The HoJ is pointless now since the Wall was breached already.
The dragonglass they found at the Fist was wrapped in a Night’s Watch cloak. (Sam pointed it out)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BejIBPYB9Zy/
What if Jon and dany killed nk in the process somehow they were changed into white walkers because of nk magic….
So after the war is over….the new king and queen of white walkers demolish all the remaining white walkers and go away into the far north away from all humans to live their immortal lifes forever and leave their child in care of sansa/ tyrion
Jaehaerys,
🎼Don’t bogart that tinfoil, my friend, pass it over to me. 🎵
Seriously now, why is everyone speculating about which person(s) and which weapon(s) will kill my boy NK?
Ten Bears,
Hey, he may be great at unifying a country… but damnit some diversity is a good thing #LetThePeopleLive
Clob,
Thanks for this. I thought I remembered it all being wrapped up in the Night’s Watch cloak but wasn’t certain. Now I’m recalling thinking it was Benjen’s cloak (when we first saw it), but this wasn’t true. I wonder who could have possibly left it there if the Night’s Watch wasn’t even established until after the White Walkers were defeated the first time? Unless the NW was created right after the Wall was put up and the first Lord Commander ordered the dragonglass be put there, or some Lord Commander did before the White Walkers were essentially forgotten. But this seems to be the only answer, and that cloak probably would’ve deteriorated over 8,000 years. Maybe they’ll answer this in S8! Bran-vision to the rescue.
I knew that these horns were only mentioned in the books and not the show, but I forgot: Did Sam actually find a mysterious horn with the dragonglass in the show? Sorry, I couldn’t tell exactly what you meant in the comment above. If he did, I wonder why D&D haven’t brought this back up– probably because the horn in the books is actually the Horn of Joramun and D&D didn’t want this horn mucking up their “Dead Viserion takes down the Wall” plan that they’ve had for a while.
Jaehaerys,
The DG Sam found: look at the markings on the hatch. 🌀
ACME,
As always, you provide the most stimulating comments, even allusions to the Bard. ASOIAF too has many non-literal prophecies, and one of the most significant is the books-only Valonqar prophecy. It may well lie behind some of Cersei’s attitude towards little brother Tyrion, though Jaime being some minutes younger than her is technically also a little brother. She’s probably blissfully unaware that “valonqar” may also be gender-neutral, which opens up that position to a wide range of other younger siblings. If anyone other than Tyrion kills her, she’ll be as surprised as Macbeth was when Birnam Wood camouflage came to Dunsinane.
Mea culpa for extrapolating from the Catspaw Dagger appearing on a page discussing Targs and their weapons. Saying it was one was over-reaching. Several YouTubers have theorised that Catspaw might be Dark Sister or a re-purposed fragment of it; some went so far as to speculate that it had belonged to Rhaegar. That’s the other reason I thought Arya might eventually give it to Jon.
But yesterday someone elsewhere asked if we’d ever see Dark Sister. IMO, if Catspaw really is Dark Sister, it should go to Jon as his heritage. But if he has another sword to be his Lightbringer, it might be destined for Arya. In the show Catspaw has come to her, the one person who even remembers about Dark Sister. She is herself a Dark sister and quite expert with a blade. In the books, its whereabouts are currently unknown, but at one point it had been found in the eye-socket of a body pulled from the Gods Eye lake, home of the mysterious and possibly magical Isle of FACES. Another potential connection between Arya and Dark Sister is that it had belonged to Visenya Targaryen, sister of Aegon Targaryen. Arya is the sister of the new Aegon Targaryen. Catspaw was given to her by her all-knowing other brother, the Three-Eyed Raven. These putative associations may all be no more than a load of codswallop, but they make for interesting speculation.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
re: Dark Sister
“at one point it had been found in the eye-socket of a body pulled from the Gods Eye lake, home of the mysterious and possibly magical Isle of FACES.”
—————–
“Someday, I’m going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull,”
– Arya, S3e9
Dagger = Dark Sister?
GoT: Make it happen!
Ten Bears,
I thought of that threat she had made against Sandor, but it seemed too ominous to bring up in any prediction-laden paragraph. I fervently hope the Catspaw is revealed as DS and that Jon does not need or want it, even though it’s from his Targ heritage. With its magical materials, he may need it to kill the NK. But based on my research, it may be inevitably destined for Jon, which is why I want her to give it to him. She’s not only generous, but in a sense she owes Jon a ‘sword’. Otherwise, it may be dangerous for her to keep it.
Firannion:
Ehrm, didn’t the NK trade in his horse for a slightly larger critter?
Juri:
Nope. No way in hell. She could have executed Littlefinger with anything. The purpose of a Valyrian-steel blade with a dragonglass handle, much less an ancient weapon worthy of recording in a book, was not simply to off some two-bit schemer.
ACME:
“We are the Borg. You will be wightified.”
Stark Raven’ Rad:
Intriguing, but it would go against canon. Even though it was a woman’s sword, Dark Sister eventually went to Bloodraven, who was sent to the Wall on the same ship as Maester Aemon, eventually became Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, was lost in a ranging mission, and ultimately became the Three-Eyed Raven. (That’s the super-short version.) Dark Sister should be in the cave of the CotF, hence the speculation a few months ago that it might be the sword Meera grabbed when fleeing the wights. Imho, it’s way too late to introduce the weapon now, but who knows?
mau,
But what’s the point dany and jon go beyond the wall? At season 7th finale we all know that NK and his army already pass through the wall.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“…. “valonqar” may also be gender-neutral…”
___________
I’ve assumed “his hands” in the prophecy limits “the little brother” to boys. (For that matter, the plural “hands” should exclude Jaime: a prosthesis isn’t really a hand, and the fingers of Jaime’s golden hand aren’t flexible enough to “wrap” around a throat….are they?)
Didn’t NK ghostwrite “The Art of the Deal”?
She could’ve and should’ve killed him with a chicken bone.
😀
Considering Bran has become Westeros’s Data, you are making me worried for the kid… Let’s just hope his resistance will not be futile ^^
Most kind of you to say so. And right back at you ! 😉
In regards to the prophecy, you are most certainly correct that Cersei probably does not think of valonqar as gender-neutral. That being said, given Cersei’s past and personality, I think she is now at a point where she could suspect anyone of wanting to kill her.
No mea culpa needed : the Catspaw dagger could very well be a Targaryen weapon. As far as we know, there is a 50/50 chance.
If it is indeed Targaryen, then it would not be stretch for Arya to give it to Jon. My sole opposition to this idea is, quite frankly, purely esthetic so to speak : I like the one Valyrian steel weapon per person “policy” and since Jon already has Longclaw, I would not mind Catspaw going to someone who does not have this kind of advantageous tool yet.
Jon, as you very rightly point out, will have to connect with his Targaryen heritage at some point. But I would prefer for him to do so through Daenerys and the dragons than through some of his paternal ancestors’ “hand-me-downs”, to put it extremely bluntly.
Jon is both Stark and Targaryen, unquestionably so, but he is not both in the same way as Theon is both Greyjoy and Stark. Theon spent his first years with the Greyjoys before he was taken hostage by Ned, he remembered his biological father and recognised his family’s tradition. He truly is a child of two worlds. Jon, for all intents and purposes, is not : the sole frame of reference he has ever known is the Starks’. Objectively, he cannot relate to his Targaryen identity in the same way Theon could to his Greyjoy one because Jon never met Rhaegar and will never get to know him.
Therefore, to me, when Jon decides to claim his Targaryen heritage, it can only be through something more tangible, more “alive” than objects.
If they go beyond the wall then I would speculate it’s to find a way to stop the Nights King, there is some speculation that Dany may be sacrificed there in order to do that.
ACME,
“Jon never met Rhaegar and will never get to know him.”
———-
I wonder….is this the right place for my Anti-Rhaegar rant? (Count me among the minority: I didn’t think Bran’s lovely observation in S7e7 that “he loved her…and she loved him” got him off the hook so easily.)
Ten Bears,
Rant away, my friend. I am not particularly keen on Rhaegar myself so it will not bother me one bit.
Ten Bears,
I hated that whole scene, to be honest. It’s a mystery to me how anybody could find it heartwarming or romantic.
Two of the most emotional moments in this show’s entire history occurred in the Season 6 finale, when Jon’s parentage was revealed in the heartbreaking scene between Ned and Lyanna and with the subsequent triumphant and heartwarming King in the North scene.
And then at the end of S7E6 we get that awful “my queen” moment to taint the King in the North scene forevermore. And then in the finale they taint the Ned/Lyanna moment by shoehorning it into this scene where Rhaegar dumps his wife and kids for a younger model and Jon shags his aunt. Yikes.
That’s one of the reasons I really didn’t like Season 7. It felt like they were constantly and ham-fistedly trampling all over what went before in their rush toward the conclusion.
That’s probably why I’m so eager for the events of Season 7 to actually have some consequences in Season 8. So that the final two seasons don’t feel like a kind of standalone, generic fantasy conclusion, that bears little resemblance to the show that existed for 6 seasons beforehand.
They’ve got a lot to do to redeem themselves in the final season, as far as I’m concerned.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
….”Rhaegar dumps his wife and kids for a younger model…”
_________
Yeah, that’s one of the grounds for my anti-Rhaegar rant. Lemme see if I can find it and post it….Because if I were Jon, I wouldn’t be so thrilled to learn what a perv my real daddy was and what he did.
To be fair to “anybody” (^^), the scene was filmed in a heartwarming and romantic way : the colour palette was warm, the lighting was soft, the sound design was ethereal and enchanting, the actors were handsome… It was meant to look beautiful which, at the time, I found utterly grotesque. These two started a war that caused thousands upon thousands of deaths because they could not be bothered to write a poxy letter but the show grants them the privilege of framing them like romantic icons ? If that is the perspective the show intends to embrace next season, I am not pleased. Not pleased at all.
However, I believe there is hope, a silver lining for us, cynics who do not take kindly to the monuments to selfishness and lack of consideration that are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bran’s face when he witnesses the wedding is not one of awe or tenderness; it is one of shock and confusion. He cannot believe that this is it, that the lie surrounding these two (a lie they never bothered to rectify, of course) led to the chaos and devastation that was Robert’s Rebellion.
So I am keeping my fingers crossed that we will get a more critical take on Lyanna and Rhaegar in the final season.
If I were Jon, I would not be all that ecstatic over my mother either…
ACME,
Oh good. I’m glad I’m not the only one. Now let me see if I can dig up that rant later today …