The most anticipated new arrivals of Game of Thrones season 5 are the Martell clan, the family of the recently and gruesomely killed Prince Oberyn (Pedro Pascal). His fierce bastard daughters, the Sand Snakes, are expected to take on a large role next season, and were spotted filming last fall.
Academy Award-nominee Keisha Castle-Hughes, who will be playing eldest Sand Snake Obara, sat down for a chat with New Zealand’s Sunday Star Times. The actress opened up about her extensive training for the physically demanding role, and discussed the world of Dorne.
“Obara Sand likes to think of herself as a warrior monk. Some of her favorite pastimes are murdering people with her spear and meditating and picking on her younger sister- oh, and riding her horses,” Castle-Hughes says.
As for her preparation, she reports, “It’s been very intensive, my character wields a 7-foot spear, the same as her father, so I’ve had lots of martial art training in the martial art of Wushu which has been really interesting and different for me. I’m more of a dramatic actress and I’ve never really done a lot physical or stunt-based roles before.”
On the expanding world of Game of Thrones, Keisha says, “We get to see in this new season a whole new world of Westeros, which is Dorne. It almost feels a little bit Arabic, it’s in the desert but it’s also seaside, everyone’s a little bit more tanned, they get a little more Vitamin D down in Dorne so everyone’s a little bit happier than their counterparts up in King’s Landing.”
The actress pursued a role on the show in part because she is a big fan of the books. Castle-Hughes explains that she found out she had won the role the night “The Mountain and the Viper” aired- the night Oberyn’s death was shown, and because of the connection, she had a very “intense emotional reaction” to the scene.
For the complete interview with Keisha Castle-Hughes, visit Stuff.co.nz!
Her being cast while the last season was still airing is interesting. I guess they do start that process for some characters even earlier than I thought.
Hodor!
It’s cool that at least some of the cast are fans of the books 🙂
Props to Keisha
Quite nice to have an interview from Keisha. As much as I don’t mind interviews from the old guys, like Kit, it is fantastic to have somebody different.
It is nice because these new actors normally have something new & different to say (like here). I know a lot of people are dubious about Dorne, but I’m optimistic.
A monk?! A meditating monk???
That’s, uh.. well, one way to go about it. I guess. So long as it works for her and makes her role better..
god this season scares the shit out of me
The video in the link looks like it contains new footage (around the 0:50 second mark. It’s mixed in with old footage, but some of it is definitely new).
Harry Lime,
I saw the video and I have some real doubts about that actually being GoT- it looks like some footage from another thing altogether- the costumes are all wrong. It looks like they wanted to add some desert stuff in as they were discussing Dorne, so they threw in stuff from a recent movie.
Hmm. Yeah, I considered that immediately after I posted it. I guess the Nickelback-y backing music is also suspect. I’m not sure what movie the footage is taken from (it has a definite Ridley Scott feel. Kingdom of Heaven? Robin Hood?).
hmmmmm it seems like Show Obara will have some of the “piousness” of Book Tyene
Harry Lime,
That’s not Game of Thrones. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that video; it’s a fan-made trailer, with footage from the show spliced with lots of footage from a number of different movies. Most of it doesn’t even fit in the GoT aesthetic, honestly. Silly mistake by the reporters.
Sue the Fury,
Yeah, half of that is footage from other stuff, for sure. There were shields with Christian crosses that couldn’t be from GoT, and I’m pretty sure one shot was Sam and Frodo from LotR.
This season is going to be weird, because I honestly have no idea how much of that profile of Obara is stuff the books just haven’t gotten to yet, and how much is stuff made up for the show.
I will withhold final judgment for now until I see the execution. But yes, a monk Obara does sound very strange.
Sue the Fury,
Some of its from Ironclad, I think. And Kingdom of Heaven too mayhaps? Anyways, I imagine shitty gossip sites will be claiming it’s GoT footage within the hour…
She also says Obara is a warrior who likes to pick on her sisters, ride horses and kill people with spears. I suspect she just threw in “monk” as a descriptor because they have a scene with her meditating.
King Tommen,
Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s the case. Also, a “warrior monk” can be understood as a kind of character archetype. Then again, that archetype is pretty far from the brash Obara from the books.
Luka Nieto,
Yea I think they are making deliberate changes to make Obara less unhinged than she is in the books. Maybe they plan on
As an ardent fan of Ridley Scott, I can tell you with certainty the extra clips are from “Kingdom of Heaven” and “Robin Hood” . Fun fact, NCW has a part in “Kingdom of Heaven”, although if you really want to see him, get the director’s cut.
Yes, it’s me.
The North Remembers
Sand Snakes so far:
Obara the stoic warrior
lost – her whip to Nymeria, her rudeness to Brienne and her strong body during the casting process
gained – piousness from Tyene, sort of calmness maybe?
Tyene the slutty poisoner
lost – her piousness, her blonde hair and a religious upbringing
gained – Arienne´s seductivness, Nymeria´s daggers and Ellaria as mother
Nymeria the exotic unknown
lost – her daggers to Tyene, her look and a city of birth to Talisa
gained – a whip from Obara
Scott4567,
Also, so did Iain Glen.
tbh I know it may scare you that they’re changing this character but the fact is that we’re going to see more of this character and that’s good. What could I tell you about Obara as a character? She’s butch, and she does butch things and is very aggressively butch about everything.
Maybe she’ll actually get some layers lmao
Interesting interview, especially Ms Hughes stating her receiving news about the role the night episode 8 premiered. When did that episode premiere in NZ?
Warrior monk? Definitely want to see her take on the character now.
They inter cut Kingdom of Heaven and Ironclad clips with GoT scenes, both great films, well the KoH Director’s Cut is, not the piece of trash other cut, still fuming over that studio decision, it’s like watching two separate films, a 5 star vs. a 2 star, don’t know why they cut the film into shreds like that, I read they fired the guys responsible for it.
Can someone let me know what film is at the 1:05-1:06 sec mark, I love medieval movies and don’t recognize that one, would definitely want to check it out.
Probably. Moreover, martial arts training teaches the calmer one is, the more power one can generate, the more clearly one can see, and thus the more effective one can be when in a combat situation. I could see that being worked into her character, simply as a means of her constantly trying to become a more effective warrior. Additionally, just because one meditates, that doesn’t mean one walks around in some zen-like state at all times.
This is all conjecture, of course, but reading that comment is not making me expect Obara to turn into some female Dornish Mr. Miyagi.
GaiusB,
lol this is a good summary. thanks.
I’d prefer if they had spent more time in the video showing Keisha speaking rather than the Kingdom of Heaven/Thrones fanvid. Oh well.
I’m also worried about how they’ll adapt the Dorne storyline. Maybe we’ll get another offhand reference to Elia Sand. But who am I kidding? I want a reference to Sarella Sand and a surprise appearance by Arianne Martell. If only…
Dorne! Dorne! Dorne! I’ll take any and all Sand Snakes, any Dayne references, any Elia or Arianne mentions, any references to the Maester’s plot and Oldtown. I just want the story to move forward in whatever form (and by whatever author(s)) I can get. I cannot wait to see where this storyline goes!
Looking forward to more Sand Snakes in TWOW. 2 books in, and they are still underdeveloped characters, IMO. I think that will change soon. Looking forward to them
I wonder if Nymeria or Tyene will be more hot tempered in the show if Obara is more ‘monk-like’?
Nice.
I was actually an exchange student in NZ in the mid-90s. Awesome place. Love the accent too.
Maybe the SS’s travel to KL is not so formal? Given KCH’s comments, I can see the SS infiltrating the Faith Militant (or some other pious/devout organization) before causing vengeful mayhem in KL.
Can’t wait to see her on the show! Ubelievable that she is a grown woman…damn she was just a kid when I saw her years ago in “Whale Rider”!!!
Good looking out Keisha! Good luck!
GaiusB,
This really makes you wonder why the hell they rotated their weapons? Good summary btw
EDIT: Although to be fair, Obara still has her more notable spear.
Renly’s Peach,
I share your concerns. The problem with the Sand Snakes wasn’t the character designs, it was that they never bloody did anything and there were far too many of them! Not really sure what they’re trying to do here but I guess we’ll find out. With no Arianne I would have thought they could shift her ambition to Obara and things could carry on pretty much as they are in the books. Not sure why they’re trying to water them down and remove some of their uniqueness (they were struggling to get over in the readers minds in the books due to not seemingly having a purpose…yet).
Got pretty low expectations for Dorne with only Siddig tweaking my interest of the new characters. Was a potentially wise move to take Jaime and Bronn down there, just hope it doesn’t mess up their character development (mainly Jaime as Bronn is pretty much the complete article at this point) and things up in the grand scheme of things. As ever…we shall wait and see.
Dutch maester,
I think they needed to give Tyene some weapon for the fight scene. Daggers are suitable weapon for poison so they took them from Nymeria. Nymeria got a whip as it can be suitable weapon for noblewoman of Essos origin, because of existing slavery there.
I can only laugh at some of the comments here. I think the key thing that everybody ignored so far is that, as KCH said, Obara SEES HERSELF as a warrior monk, Seeing oneself is very different from “being”. Cersei sees herself as the best person to be on the throne, Tywin 2.0, political godess. She isn’t. Renly saw himself as the rightful king, even though he had an older brother, so, by westerosi law, he wasn’t. People’s impression of themselves versus what they really are or what others think of them are two completely different things. Obara can think of herself as a warrior monk while others may see her as a vengeful violent woman with thirst for blood. But ofc we will only know that for sure in 84 days.
Maybe they switched the weapons around because the actresses previously had specific training or felt comfortable with different weapons from their characters.
On the show, this makes a lot of sense as not only is Indria Varma an asset you want to use, she was introduced last season and the audience clearly understands her connection to Oberyn and her motivation for revenge that she would share with Oberyn’s daughters (at least one of whom is now hers on the show I believe).
They won’t have the heir to Dorne stuff as part of this transference from Arianne (and it’s unclear how exactly they’re interacting with Myrcella) but the Sandsnakes wanting to take action and Ellaria agreeing that they should is probably the most clear way they’re going to tell Arianne’s story. Along with Jaime being involved, this allows the show to weave in all these Dornish characters into the overall story with known characters as opposed to just dropping us into an unknown land with unknown people and spending a long time trying to explain why they’re important, how they’re connected to the main plot and what their feelings are.
King Tommen,
Vague, tiny spoiler for 0501 per Entertainment Weekly (sorry if already posted)…safe for Unsullied unless they want to be like Jon Snow and know nothing:
Second spoiler code thing speculating as to who:
What?!?! We all know that characters have completely objective viewpoints about everything. Otherwise, how else would we know that Martin pulled a “switcheroo” involving a prominent widow in his books???? 😉
Seriously, how Obara sees herself relative to how Arianne or Hotah see her is completely unknown to us. At any rate, I think that modifying the perceived character probably is a good idea: following the books could make her too much like a bad stereotype of the “ball-busting dyke” who should be running for the East German track team. (Man, I dated myself with that joke….)
https://www.etsy.com/il-en/listing/218978377/dragon-night-lamp-inspire-by-game-of?ref=shop_home_active_1
This is just one of the weaknesses of books relative to TV, film and stage. Enactments can do “Greek choruses” very well: nameless, nearly faceless groups with one or two recurrent spokesmen. (GoT has done that pretty well for the Northmen, the Westermen, Wildlings, etc.)
Books can easily get bogged down with the fact that there are no faces, only names: and not even mannerism, dress, etc., to distinguish character. The Sand Snakes are right at the cusp: they are a trio, which is less than a chorus, but more than a single individual. It’s sort of like the “other three” members of a popular band: everyone knows the lead singer, but the other three are a bit more vaguely developed in everyone’s minds.
So, basically a trio is just at the cusp before books have to resort to their analog of Greek choruses (a few names bandied about frequently attached to undeveloped characters representing houses, clans, nations, etc.) and where you can develop them individually. Add to this that the PoV characters (who do all of the developing for us) lump the three together, and this can happen.
However, on the plus side, the Sand Snakes themselves are not important characters for the story. They will set things up for or be used by the important characters. So, whether Obara matches what people think of her is unimportant just as long as she has one key trait: fierce devotion to her father’s memory.
Wimsey,
As I exemplified, I still think that characters do not see themselves the way they truly are and I completely disagree on the objective viewpoint thing. One of the most interesting things of ASOIAF is that we see the world through the lenses of these biased characters, and we are influenced by their opinions, so much that, for example, Jaime was viewed mostly as a “villain” (well, not villain, but you know, more black than white) until we got to his chapters and could see his view on things. When KCH says Obara sees herself as something it’s because she has to get into the character’s head, but seeing onself as a “warrior monk” does not mean she will behave like Dalai Lama with a spear, as Cersei feeling like Tywin reborn can still fuck things up in ways that her father would never do. I agree with you on the last part, if they are putting the character on screen they might aswell develop her more than in the books. Oh, and I did not catch the widow thing.
BTW: Sorry if my writing is messy and badly structured, english is not my native language.
James Rivers,
Link please?
aurane waters,
Dunno if it’s online. I get the print edition…I’ll upload a pic in a bit!
aurane waters,
I googled and didn’t find anything.
RandomSand,
I absolutely agree with you that how someone sees themselves versus how other people see them can be two completely different things. When applied to an actor creating and inhabiting a character, this also applies.
Wimsey,
I’m not sure I understand your assertion the Sand Snakes are not important characters, especially since GRRM has stated they’ll be stirring things up in King’s Landing. Perhaps it’s just that you define “important character” differently than I, or maybe you’re just speaking of where we are in the story, right now. I don’t think setting things up for or being used by important characters is mutually exclusive from being an important character.
Wimsey,
Dunno if it’s really that much of a weakness. Pretty much all the minor characters from the books are much better fleshed out than their show counterparts with the possible excpetion of Bronn.
I agree with the opinion that they are ultimately not going to be that important. Not sure why they didn’t featured Arianne and have the Sand Snakes replace her co-conspirators in the QM plot (who to this day I still can’t remember the names of). But at this point I have no idea what D&D are thinking especially if Jaime stays down in Dorne for more than this season.
aurane waters,
Here we go:
So rereading the item, they say it involves an
(oh and this is from a feature on how various shows make fake arms, fake vomit, fake cocaine, etc look convincing)
James Rivers,
I’m going to take a little issue with that statement. Characters I believe the show has given us more background and insight into than the books have (off the top of my head):
Bronn
Pod
Gilly
Tommen
Joffrey
Tywin
Edd
Grenn
Rast
Alliser
Tormund
Missandei
Grey Worm
Yoren
Olenna
Margaery
Shae
Talisa/Jeyne
Robb
Thoros
Gendry
I’m sure there’s more…
In other words, with some exceptions, pretty much everybody who isn’t a book POV.
aurane waters,
My guess is that that will be our first view of
in Season 5.
King Tommen,
Again, I would call this is one of the plus/minus aspects of written vs. enacted storytelling. TV & Movies have a really hard time developing characters as well as written PoV does (unless you use narrative voice overs). You get to read what Tyrion or Sansa or Jon thinks, and nothing gives you more insight to a person than that. Other characters’ thoughts are only spoken (and as the difference between the italicized lines and quote lines in the books show, there can be big differences!) and/or interpreted by others.
On the other hand, we all get the same view of every character’s thoughts, actions, etc., in one scene So, we don’t lose things because of subjective interpretation: say, relative vs. absolute width of hips! That also means that third parties get better relative development on TV & movies than they would in books or spoken story telling: at least if you are paying better attention than the PoV character was! The fact that we see, say, both Tyrion and Olenna in a seen talking without either’s thoughts “weighting” the narrative makes a big difference.
The other issue on this list is that the TV show elevated some secondary characters to protagonists (e.g., Robb, Margaery, Cersei), and given a lot more “face” time to some important secondary characters (Tywin, Olenna, Gendry, Missandei, Grey Worm, etc.) at the expense of others (particularly cut characters). Part of that was simplification: for example, having the roulette of people at Harenhall would have been confusing; having just Tywin there made it simpler AND opened up some great development dialog between him and Arya. Expanding Margaery and Robb opened the door for expanding Olenna and Talisa (relative to Jeyne) quite a bit: they now are supporting leads rather than supporting supports! Reducing Daeny’s entourage opened the door for making Missandei & Grey Worm much more prominent in the narrative, and thus much better developed than they are in the books. Essentially amalgamating Shae & Tysha would up with a more fully developed Shae.
James Rivers,
The vomiting should have happened at the end of S4 ep8. Any regurgitation in S5 will seem….just….forced and apologetic.
Hodor’s Bastard,
If the vomiting is what I suspect it will be, then it already has been shown in Season #2 Ep. 9. It’s a common cause, for which they sell a lot of over-the-counter medication! (I find that chewing ginger helps, myself…..) Or, in this case, perhaps the union of two very common causes…… 😉
King Tommen,
I disagree with Tormund being more fleshed out in the show, especially considering where the end of ADwD has left him. Bookwise, and considering he is not a POV and we only see him through Jon Snow’s trials and tribulations, Tormund is a well put together book character.
a friend to Mance, a fierce warrior and a respected adversary to the crows and especially Jon Snow. I think the show covers a part of that. Of course we haven’t yet reached the end of ADwD final stages on screen but we shall see if they can put all that up there. I hope they do, because if I love one secondary character in that big string of books you can bet it is him.
I think, like Wimsey pointed above, that not being a POV in the books combined with putting a face to the name in the show makes these secondary characters more vivid and their actions more personal to the audience. Probably the reason some of the characters you named look like more fleshed out, but I don’t think they really are.
Roose Bolton just posted a poster for season 5 on his Facebook page. It might be real, I don’t know.
https://www.facebook.com/RooseBoltonofDreadfort/photos/a.386970308025412.105136.386656531390123/768334626555643/?type=1&theater
Dogcheese,
Now that’s a poster, best GoT poster since the first season Iron Throne one.
I can see that tag line also working with the North (image of Winterfell), concerning the Stark’s, the Wall concerning the White Walkers (image of the Wall, with Ice white moon), and Kings Landing concerning the Martell’s (image of fiery sun with a spear smashing down into KL), take your pick
Keisha Castle-Hughes plays Joan in the Walking Dead episode “Slabtown”. Does anyone who watches the show know if she was any good in it?
I thought that came through pretty well on the show so far. I also think that adding his distaste for the Thenns rounded out his character. Tormund really is just a “face” for the Wildlings, but he helps show that Wildlings are not all alike: like the Westerosians, they are making otherwise distasteful alliances because of greater enemies: in particular, the White Walkers. (I’m not sure what else the first three books tells us about him that the show doesn’t, save that the size of his member is quite impressive!)
In a lot of cases, I think that they actually are a bit more fleshed out that in the book. Most of these characters get very little development in the books, after all: and just having them performed provides a level of development that the books often do not provide.
The key thing for both book readers and TV viewers is to not get too distracted by the secondary and incidental characters. The leads are the ones delivering the stories. At least in the first four seasons, the supporting roles have been used very well in that regard. (Season 5 is going to present some new challenges to this: I am curious to see how B&W handle it.)
Dogcheese,
Looks fake
Dogcheese,
Fan-made I think
https://twitter.com/GoT_Tyrion/status/555765122740658178
Wimsey,
Too bad the Thenns were basically the equivalent of Orcs on the show.
James Rivers,
Yea… It’s definitely fan made. Its still well done anyway.
Hodor’s Bastard,
The vomiting would be completely appropriate for S5E1. Tyrion vomiting over Oberyn’s death would have completely broken the mood and tension.
I don’t see Cersei throwing up after seeing her dead father.
Luka Nieto,
I think she meant “warrior-monk” in the sense of the archetype “stoic warrior”, not literally someone with holy vows.
Definitely fan-made. GoTTyrion does a lot of photoshop pictures.
Plus it just doesn’t look like the sort of poster HBO would make.
Renly’s Peach,
🙂 I rather enjoy this tasty topic. Dornish peppers, anyone?
I guess I disagree about the puke “effect” as you state. Hearing & seeing Ellaria scream, following by Tyrion going pale and ralphing up his breakfast, then the shot/pullback of RV’s brainy remains (with Tyrion still throwing up in the background) would have worked on many levels, imho. But, as you said, I guess it would also work to emphasize Tyrion’s pathos to kick off S5. Blllaarrrgghhh!
(Actually, I would argue that Ellaria’s resonating scream and reaction was the most effective part of that scene, and not RV’s brutal death)
King Tommen,
I’d agree with
Bronn
Pod (if you consider finding out he has a big ding dong as literally fleshing him out)
Rast
Alliser
Yoren
Olenna
Margaery
The others I found the book versions a lot more detailed and interesting.
Missandei especially has been terrible in the show. The book version was a lot more interesting and had something about her. The show one is pretty much Irri II.
Eh, not really. Remember, in the books, Jon really hates the Magnar. Oddly, I don’t remember exactly why: only that Jon hated him, and was quite happy to see him die. The show needed to make the Thenns (and their leader) hateable so that we feel about them the way that Jon does. The particular reasons are much less important that emotion is: it’s about Jon, after all, not about Wildlings.
Moreover, the show really benefits from making it plain that the Wildlings are uniting despite not liking each other: people only do that in the face of a huge threat, so that in turn develops just how big of a threat they consider the White Walkers to be. I also can see this becoming important next year, too. The NW vs. Wildling politics should be very important, and it will really help to tell the story if B&W can communicate that the degree and manner in which the different Wildlings hate the crows varies quite a bit, and that the Wildling groups are far from homogeneous.
I do not recall Missandei doing or saying much of importance before Dragons. She does step it up a bit in Dragons: but we cannot fairly compare the show to anything in Crows and Dragons. tvMissandei is certainly ahead of bMissandei through this point in the series, in part because she’s gotten bMissandei’s parts plus the parts of some cut characters.
At any rate, there are several other characters on King Tommen‘s list (Robb, Joffery, Tywin) that are more fully fleshed out on screen than on page, particularly through Swords. Cersei’s development is way ahead of the books so far. I would add Littlefinger and Brienne to King Tommen’s list, too. I have a better feel for what Littlefinger really up to doing from the TV show than from the books. (Of course, Littlefinger is far and away the most enigmatic of the book characters, in part because most of his possible development comes from the PoV of a character with very limited sense of character!) And Brienne already has become a focal character on the TV series, whereas Martin doesn’t elevate her to an important character until Crows.
Wimsey,
The Thenns eat people on the show, then tell a kid they are going to eat his parents. Sorry, they are Orcs.
The vomiting topic is hilarious to read ^^
That shows how desperate we are for some S5 footage 🙁
Turncloak,
I honestly don’t know where they can go with the show!Thenns. I thought they were a fascinating bunch in the books, but the show turned them into something unrecognizable and unforgiving. How Stannis and Jon will work sociably and progressively with Mance & Co with the show!Thenns in the mix is beyond me.
Although…even in the books, the so-called “semi-cannibalistic” ice river clans were a part of Mance’s army as well, which I never thought much about (nor did Jon & Stannis, apparently).
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’m guessing the show will just mention the Wildlings as a whole and not single out the Thenns anymore going forward. I don’t expect to see an Alys Karstark/Thenn marriage in the show
TheTouchOfFrost:
I really wish we’d gotten a child Missandei in the show. I can’t remember, has her past even been touched upon? All the languages she knows, her memories of Naath, etc? There was a weird sadness to her character in the books specifically because she was so young. In a way, she was a silent and constant motivator for Dany to keep doing what she’s doing. In the show she’s just.. “that one hot chick that stands there and translates.” But hey, at least we have Grey Worm angsty romance..
They seem to have an absolute aversion to casting children in long-term roles. And I can’t entirely blame them for it, seeing as Bran looks like somebody’s grandma now.
Renly’s Peach,
All I really know about show Missandei is she stands around with Dany a lot and she’s got her boobs out. I try and wipe the contrived GreyWorm love story from my mind.
The strong-willed and intelligent 10 year old from the books who has seen a lot and is one of Dany’s wisest advisors is a lot more interesting.
Should have been easy to cast a young-looking teen to play her especially as although an interesting character she is quite measured in her speech. They did well with Arya and Shireen so they could have found a good Missandei but apparently eunuch love stories are what the people want.
I don’t know about that. Jon’s chapters beyond the Wall in ASoS are rather peppered with Tormund’s doings and sayings (beyond the biting of his penis, which obviously is the only thing many remember LOL). The way the interacts with Jon, the dialog and stories he shared about his Munda or how Jon sees him work along his sons is pretty telling of what kind of a man he is. The care he shows for Ygritte and how he’s trying to make Jon understand the wildling ways and Ygritte’s is much more than what I have seen in season 3. I don’t expect all that to show up in the show, don’t get me wrong. But dismissing all of the above and saying that show Tormund is more complex shown, doesn’t seem fair to his book counterpart and to Martin’s writing.
Regardless of my partiality towards the character I am still waiting for the end of ADwD portion of the Wall to end on screen. Because with him being caught and the wildlings surrendering to Stannis, there’s a big portion of his storyline that will probably get cut. We’ll see.
Maybe I should have specified exactly which characters from King Tommen’s list I disagree with: Edd, Gilly, Thoros, Joff and Gendry.
I’m rewatching the GoT and I’m comparing them with the books because someone called me a hardliner, while I have never thought myself as one!!!
I’m watching my reactions: how much do I really hold GoT to the book canon. So obviously I am noticing the changes. None truly bother me so far except for Dany’s (I’m at mid season 3). But I am noticing them because that’s the purpose of my exercise.
For the ones mentioned I personally think Martin makes a better use of them in relation to the POV they are supporting. Edd and Gilly are more present as both have a strong supporting role for Jon and Sam, Edd in particular. I also think Thoros and Gendry look like more fleshed out because of the decision they made to have Mel exposed to resurrection, while in Martin’s books for example they only serve Arya’s. But otherwise I think both fade equally into the story and they don’t have really that much substance. I don’t know why you’d think they are more fleshed out in the show.
Boy, did I type a lot.
TheTouchOfFrost,
What wise advice did Missandei give to Dany on the books (specifically in the portions of the books that have been adapted so far?
I think she’s pretty good on the show and better than Irri for sure. Her translating of Kraznys’ insults made pretty clear how intelligent she is, and recently they went more in her backstory and the scars that slavery has left on her.
And making her younger wouldn’t have helped her at all. If anything, it would be really hard to see her as one of Dany’s “wisest advisors” in the show if she were in earlyteens
Tormund’s Woman,
Please tell what changes in dany’s story that made you bother
Hodor Targaryen,
The show has added nothing new to the character that wasn’t already there in the books. Other than her age and romance.
While we are voicing displeasures about the 50th or 60th most important character not being as good as the book version, I will add my frustration of the show’s version of Dagmer. Dude didn’t have no cleft jaw. What’s up with that? Totally ruined the character for me.
I wanted to add a thought to the vomiting speculations but I keep forgetting how to do spoilers mark up. There’s no button for it. At least not with my phone.
Sofia,
There are instructions in the block above the show/hide spoilers buttons. It says to use this.
[spoiler] Insert spoiler here [/spoiler]
Which should result in this. The Preview button will not necessarily show it as it appears when posted.
Arianeeeeeeee 🙁
So funny that you say that. While I would not have put it that way I totally know what you mean.
I think we are all Unsullied now. We have no idea how they’re going to take the next evolution of the books and put it on screen. Hell, I don’t even remember what happened in the last two books and when I see people talking about characters that I don’t remember or that have made no impression one me my head begins to ache.
If I may be allowed an excursion off topic here – did anyone see our Maisie in Cyberbully? As much as I have loved her in GoT, there has always been that nagging doubt that she may just be uncannily good in that one particular role. This puts it to rest.
Warrior monk? I love love love it.
Her scenes with GW were some of the most gloriously acted scenes yet in GoT. They were beautifully shot and I am grateful that they were included to give us something hopeful and pretty in a season full of vengence, repulsiveness, and dismay.
Touch of Frost,
Thank goodness. It may be different from your books, but the scenes were a marvel to watch.
Unfortunately I missed it, but knowing our dear old British TV it will be repeated again, and again and again…….so no doubt I’ll get a chance to watch it in the future. I did hear an interview she gave some months ago when she said it had been her mother who persuaded her to go for the GoT audition (which clashed with a trip Maisie’s class had scheduled to a pig farm) and the rest as they say is history.
Yep a couple of us mentioned it on another thread. Showed she has real acting presence alone on screen without the need for quality actors like Sean Bean, Charles Dance and Rory McCann to bounce off; and much more varied performance than the withdrawn and focused Arya she needed to be in GoT season 4.
Anyway, as for KCH and her comments I’ll wait to see how this all translates on screen before rushing to conclusions – and we already had Xena, we don’t need a carbon copy supremely confident take on all 20 and win kickass chick in GoT. I hope for something a bit more nuanced.
Kudos to WotW regarding the accurate GoT S5 countdown clock. So far, WotW is the only site (that I’ve visited) to consider DST (spring forward) in the countdown. Even GRRM’s website is off by an hour. I find that rather amusing.
….unless the Cocteau is showing S5 ep1 one hour ahead of everywhere else!!!
I don’t think that anybody is saying that tvTormund is more complex than bTormund; it is just that he’s not much less developed. Most of what we get for bTormund really is in Dragons. All of that stated, it’s not too important that we get the details for the sake of the details: what the viewers need to know is that the Wildlings are: 1) people, not orcs; and, 2) a very eclectic group of people that do not naturally get along any more than any other group of people.
The other thing to remember is that we are dealing with one big difference between books and TV here. In books, incidental characters like Tormund need some development in the minds of whatever protagonist(s) they encounter in order to: 1) develop the protagonist (how/what Jon, Daeny, Harry Potter, Pi Patel, David Copperfield or whoever thinks about other people tells us a lot about them) and 2) flesh out the narrative backdrop. Books don’t have sets, props, effects, actions, etc.: they just have words. So, they need more of them to communicate the same amount of information. That’s why we get more of people like Tormund: to tell us more about Jon and to make the narrative engaging.
Missandei doesn’t really give too much sage advice in Storms. She doesn’t turn up until halfway through the book, and she appears in only four chapters. We get to see her quickly paraphrase the Slaver’s insults because Daeny understands the Slaver all along: but what stands out much more is how well Daeny plays dumb. A quick word count shows that she’s mentioned 39 times in the whole book: mostly helping Daeny get dressed or providing Daeny with trivial details about the locals. Her one “cleverness” not televised was to quickly ask about how many sons Cleon had on his prior wives after Cleon took Daeny aback with a marriage proposal.
So, at this point, tvMissandei is way, way ahead of bMissandei.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I don’t: I hate losing that hour of sleep….
Hodor’s Bastard,
Don’t mean to sound rude, this is a genuine query rather than snarkiness, but I’m intrigued how someone can be “semi-cannibalistic”? (I’m not a book reader so I don’t know who the ice river clans are, although I do note you said “so called”.) Do you mean some of them are and some aren’t? Cannibalism seems a bit all or nothing, you either do it or you don’t, although of course the frequency and enjoyment may vary! Perhaps that’s the first bluuuurgh of S5, someone contemplating cannibalism on a full stomach?
http://insidetv.ew.com/2015/01/19/game-of-thrones-season-5-special/ Details on the February 8th featurette. Pretty much what we all expected. I’m excited for it though! Looks like it will indeed be half an hour!
Lulu’s Mum,
Hah! I actually didn’t know how to put it, since Jon/Sam only have heard indirectly that the ice river clans have engaged in creative cuisine. It has never been shown directly, only indirectly inferred in the text. Perhaps I should have used “speculated” instead of “semi-“.
Although, in my defense, I once had a girlfriend who told me she was “semi-pregnant.” 🙂
——
Regarding time zones: In the US, it is much more screwy than you imply. 9PM ET is supposed to be 7PM MT and 6PM PT but often there is a built-in delay between timezones so that folks don’t see the show too early. So those folks are even further delayed by an hour or so.
Balerion The Cat,
Awesome news! As you say, that’s about what we all expected once we heard that the title of the feature would be “A Day in the Life”, but it’s nice to have it confirmed. I’m glad to hear that it will be a full half-hour and that we’ll be checking in on multiple locations including Croatia and Spain rather than just Belfast. We should learn quite a bit!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Aaah I see. I’ve heard of people claiming to be “a bit” pregnant, which makes some sense as there’s a long time scale involved, but “semi” is an interesting use of the word.
Due to your lightning fast reply I thought I’d move my second question here but you’ve already replied to that too. What service!
In that case do your tv channels have “watershed”s where they only show ‘adult’ content after a certain time at night? We don’t have HBO here so not sure how they work, but I don’t think any of our channels, terrestrial or otherwise, would ever show something like GoT during the day, which is why the idea of it being on at 6pm was making me pull intrigued faces. Being a tall, thin country we only have one time zone here so it’s 9pm on monday nights for everyone.
Wimsey
I agree on why characters like Tormund need more development in writing vs show! Spot on analysis. I can own up to my weakness in liking some side characters better than some main ones at times, regardless of what their rather limited purpose is.
LOL I don’t know what you were responding to Wimsey, but I know the original comment to what I was posting said:
“Characters I believe the show has given us more background and insight into than the books have (off the top of my head): (…) Tormund (…)”
And you cannot type such things as “I don’t think anybody is saying”, you know. Not unless you know speak for everyone here! I mean you can, but: really?!
Lulu’s Mum,
Although I’m no expert in TV scheduling philosophy, “family hour” is usually between 8-9ET or 7-8MT/PT and “adult hour” is 10-11 ET or 9-10 MT/PT. GoT premieres are at 9PM ET but cable never follows the rules (thank R’hllor!).
I mentioned the screwy “built-in” delays between time-zones not only because of the post-dinner/darkness factor but the networks have been known to edit the feed of certain shows for non-east coast timezones, especially if certain national/world events supersede the show during the initial airing. Although it is rare these days, the eastern time zone does get the raw(er) stuff.
The wonderfully-maligned Aaron Sorkin-scripted show, “Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip”, had an episode that dealt with editing the show between time-zone showings due to an unfortunate event during the live east coast feed.
It looks like I’m not hardline enough or bothered enough to make an actual post about the show/book Dany changes! If only the rascal who called me that can see this now 🙂
Was anybody here saying that? It was implied that some people here were: but none of the posts above implied that.
One thing that the books did (particularly in Dragons) that would be nice is showed how much Tormund was driven by concern for his family. Now, it’s not too important that Tormund is shown doing that; but continuing to humanize the Wildlings as much as possible will be good next year, especially if there are NW members who demonize them (which in itself is a very humanizing trait: people love to demonize other people!) There are a lot of ways that can be done and they might or might not use Tormund for that. Given that he and Mance are now the real “faces” of the Wildling Chorus, however, it’s not improbable.
Loved listening to KCH’s Kiwi accent in that interview.
What I didn’t love – the video spoiling how grisly Oberyn’s death is. Yikes, TMI for the Unsullied!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Aaah hadn’t thought of the got enough time to edit stuff for viewing in the same country possibility. Then of course there are places with loads of time zones – I think Russia has 12 – or China were they apparently said “stuff that” and only have one for the whole country, even though it’s 5 zones wide. I’ve heard rumours some places have sneaky half hour ones too.
I’m used to time doing strange things when you go on holiday, but within the same country is a lot for my tiny mind to cope with. If I think about it too hard my head feels like Oberyn’s looks at the end of 4.08. It’s best summed up for me by the film Paul when the alien says “look, time travel” while jumping backwards and forwards over the border between two states where the zones meet.
Wimsey,
Ok, as an overarching though her age is always going to make her wiser than the TV one but that aside examples from the book where she has shown more insight and perception than others and much more than her TV counterpart;
She can speak four languages (perhaps more as there are many variations of low Valyrian… Braavosi for example), we have yet to discover if TV Missandei can speak more than two.
As mentioned she translates the slavers words in a more measured manner to avoid conflict.
She showed knowledge of healing by fixing up Strong Belwas’ wound after his duel.
She plays a part in saving Dany from Mero.
She suggests to Dany how to avoid conflict after taking Mereen with her knowledge of how to prepare Ghiscari bodies before returning them for burial.
She was the only person who didn’t dismiss the scratching she heard at night which turns out to be Viserion scracthing a hole into the wall.
She gives Dany advice on what she should or should not be eating.
There are man occasions where she counsels Dany, picks up her spirits and offers interesting interesting perspectives on events.
She tends and trys to ease the passing of QM.
She aids Ser Barristan in taking control of the court of Meereen. He uses one of her ideas in negotiations with the enemy, offering each man’s weight in gold ransom for the release of the hostages. While the Wise Masters neither want nor need the gold, their mercenaries are likely to support the deal, creating division in the enemy ranks.
Selmy himself even remarks that her strategy is reminiscent of both Littlefinger (bribes) and Varys (division in the enemy ranks).
“The little scribe with the big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She is brave as well. She had to be to survive the life she’s lived.”
– thoughts of Daenerys Targaryen
“She relied so much on the little scribe that she oft forgot that Missandei had only turned eleven.”
– thoughts of Daenerys Targaryen
“ Eleven years of age, yet Missandei is as clever as half the men at this table and wiser than all of them.”
– Barristan Selmy, comparing Missandei to the ruling council of Meereen
When has TV Missandei done anything even remotely intelligent/interesting?!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Only accept him because it’s amusing to imagine Finchy in the GoT universe!
Rygar,
Different strokes for different folks. Personally. I don’t think they’d have been out of place in Twilight or a soap opera.
TheTouchOfFrost,
“When has TV Missandei done anything even remotely intelligent/interesting?!”
Are you serious? You can argue she isn’t as interesting as book|Missandei —fine. But you cannot argue that Missandei on the show isn’t highly intelligent. Interesting… well, that’s subjective (tho I do agree with you.) However, intelligent? Of course she’s done plenty of things that are “remotely intelligent.” Come on! 😉
Luka Nieto,
Other than translate when has she shown any kind of nous at all?! I mean she’s not stupid but I honestly don’t see any difference between her and Irri other than the translating and the god awful love story.
TheTouchOfFrost,
In the Storm book, all Missandei does up to this point is translate, provide trivial details and show skill with languages. (All of these are in the show, albeit with different examples than in the book.) As for the love story, there is nothing wrong with it, and the fact that you dislike it does not mean that other people dislike it. Your subjective tastes are not other peoples’ subjective tastes!
Moreover, this romance emphasizes some important points: 1) the people that Daeny is liberating are people, not chattel, but 2) the institutions from which she is freeing people have consequences beyond Daeny’s ability to heal.
TheTouchOfFrost,
You realize that these quotes are from Dragons, don’t you? They haven’t televised Dragons yet, but you are criticizing them for not doing stuff done in Dragons. As for the rest of what you write, the show communicates analogous stuff. The problem is that you just cannot seem to recognize that pies and tarts are pastries: and if “pastry” is the point, the “tart” is as good as “pie.”
Missandei has gotten much more face time and speaking time on TV acting as a councilor to Daeny than she has through Storms. That is what develops the character: not the trivial details. Stop focusing on the trees and start paying attention to the forest: that is where the story lies.
Wimsey,
And at the same point in the book, I found the character much more endearing and got a sense of her being bright. At the same point in the show, I don’t care about her at all and get no sense of her being anything other than a translator.
If people like it then fine but I think it’s horribly contrived and really isn’t needed. You can show the liberated are people without a love story. The Missandei/Dany chats in the books were some of my favourite later Dany moments as they were some of the few times she was bearing her soul and not being giddy or trying to be stern. In turn Missandei’s stories about her past humanised her more than “this guy without balls fancies me”. The Unsullied could have been shown to be more human by making more of their honour and commitment despite being free. I hope it gets dropped this season as there’s more important things to focus on than this dirge!
Wimsey,
She has done absolutely nothing with that time though. She hasn’t got her character across or done anything memorable. She’s pretty much someone for Dany to recite dialogue to.
I wasn’t that interested in book-Missandei to be honest, whereas I enjoy show-Missandei. AND her romance with Grey Worm. Deal with it. 🙂
TheTouchOfFrost,
And the fact that Missandei is the one to whom Daeny talks is what shows the audience who Missandei is: the councilor. What TV and books have to do to communicate the same concept often is different: this is just another case of that. After all, for both book and TV, the important part of the exchange is what Daeny thinks and/or says: and that means that using Missandei for the same purpose requires using her in two different ways.
As for the other things, yes, there are other ways they could do it. After all, there are lots of ways to do the same thing. They chose effective ways. You might not like them: but my guess is that what you would like would not work for the general audience.
Sue the Fury,
Ditto!
The “child prodigy” element may be lost, which made her more interesting in a way, but basically everything else… show|Missandei FTW, including the romance… which is not Twilight-y at all.
RandomSand,
When did this happen? In the leaked auditon, Obara
The original post to which I was responding (King Tommen’s list of show characters that he thinks are more developed than in Martin’s books upthread) outright said it. Nothing implied about it. You must have missed that. It would look rather foolish of me to start disagreeing otherwise about Tormund if there was no one to disagree with!
You make an interesting point about humanizing the wildlings, showing their family driven side, fighting for their own and trying to protect them from the WW invasion. I will be honest I don’t expect to see it especially for Mance and Tormund.
For these wildling leaders to suddenly gain a family would be a bit too much and I think it would distract from the Jon/Stannis/Mel/Davos interaction at the Wall.
Sue the Fury,
Then I hope they both die horrible deaths…which is probably quite a realistic expectation!
Wimsey,
Can you honestly name one memorable conversation between Dany and show Missandei? She’s on the borderline of being a prop! I guess we’ll never know if the other way would have been more effective or not but I don’t think that MissandGrey has been a universal hit with the viewing audience.
TheTouchOfFrost,
My feelings for Missandei are entirely neutral (although I did love the you-are-totally-busted-mister face she pulled when it turned out Dany could understand everything the guy who had been insulting her was saying). But you asked if her show version could speak more than two languages. I could be misrembering but I’m pretty sure at some point, maybe in the episode when Daario v1 comes into the room when Dany is in the bath, but certainly one where M and Dany are talking, Dany incredulously says something like “you can speak nineteen languages?”. I’m not very good on exactly who says what when, but that really stuck in my mind ‘cos I thought at the time no-one speaks that many surely, even in pretend places. Unless you’re R2D2.
All I have to say about the ongoing Missandei debate is that Nathalie Emmanuel is the loveliest woman on TV goddamnit! And showMissandei speaks nineteen languages. So phooey.
Lulu’s Mum,
Quite possibly. There’s very little about her from the show I remember. I remember from the books she speaks Common Westerosi, High Valyrian, Ghiscari and Low Valyrian ( which could up her languages as different versions of it are spoken in the nine Free Cities). But yeah 19 is a little silly I think!
TheTouchOfFrost,
I am touched that the hottest woman in Essos is smitten with someone who is handicapped. GoT is so progressive and not afraid to deal with tough issues that face society. This show addresses such critical current issues as domestic violence/abuse, the ramifications of disease, and cross-cultural acceptance and tolerance with such amazing energy. It brings a tear to my eye each time I ponder the real emotion behind this series.
brandone jackson,
TheTouchOfFrost,
On the show Missandei has spoken: Westerosi, High Valyrian, Ghiscari Valyrian (may or may not be divided into astarpori and meerenese, they are more like different dialects) and Dothraki. All 9 free cities have different dialects (almost separating into different languages, because they are already mutually unintelegible), and even though some of them may be more alike if the cities are closer to each other they are all different from High Valyrian and very different from the slaver’s bay dialects. For more info on that check te GOT wiki, they have a very good article on the low valyrian languages. Sorry about the language nerd moment.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I call shenanigans! Unless you’ve been watching a show called Dany’s Creek?!
RandomSand,
Nah, it’s cool. Adds extra layers to the universe! So if we combine all of those we have 14! Wonder what the other 5 are?! Qarth have their own language I believe but would Missandei (show version) really have been that far afield plus even further for others. Ibbenese is a possibility. Summer Islands, Yi Ti and Asshai all seem long shots? Sothoryos, the giant’s language and that of the Chlidren of the Forest and White Walkers can all surely be ruled out.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Shenanigans would be correct, ser.
I am neutral on the Missandei debate (but I stand with Greenjones on his perspective). However, as I’ve mentioned before, given GRRM’s quoted inspiration regarding Osha because of Tena’s performance, I wonder what he thinks of the age-up/sexification of Missandei in the show.
Hodor’s Bastard,
The shows have been pretty faithful to the books with Osha and I think Tena herself can be given credit for really making the most of the role. I think she was always going to play a role with her being Rickon’s companion but I thik what he meant was he’ll probably make her slightly more prominent or has been inspired where to take her character a little bit more. Don’t think it will result in any massive changes.
Personally, I don’t think GRRM would be a massive fan of show Missandei as she’s deviated a lot more than Osha and hot or not she hasn’t exactly leapt out of the screen at anyone with her performance. But who knows?! Have to ask Santa of Death himself.