Before the season began we asked you three questions to better prepare for the oncoming storm. Tomorrow, a podcast records part two of thoughts and feelings on this week’s titan of a Game of Thrones episode, “Home”. Leading into next week, there are things that must be discussed.
After the cut you’ll find three questions we’ve asked ourselves, and will be disputing as the show records on Wednesday.
What do you believe?
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Jon will be back for this. Sansa will be on the move.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
It is possible that a mystery born in 1996 could be revealed this SUNDAY.
That’s it. Let us know what and why in the comments below! (We’ll tally these together before recording) Make sure to listen for your thoughts, theories, and input once this episode is released.
I had heard the director of the ToJ was doing a later episode (5 or 6 or something). Obviously it’s happening next week, but am I crazy or was that rumor at some point?
HODOR
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Prayer and faith. No cost.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Sansa is recruiting, Jon is recruiting.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
RLJ is likely…but I wouldn’t be surprised by another twist…Meera?
Gahhh-Hodor, so close!
1. First of all, a resurrection always comes with a cost, otherwise it is cheap and underwhelming. Maybe something concerning Melisandre? Don’t think that she dies but maybe she loses her powers or turns old forever or something? Or maybe there is just a catch to the whole resurrection itself, like Jon can’t talk or has to drink blood or something lol idk
2. The crucial game player at this point is : Rickon. If Rickon is the “gift” to Ramsay, that could surely start the Battle of the Bastards. As for Sansa, for the first time I actually have 100% no idea what she is doing or where she is going.
3. Hate to be a hype killer, but I don’t think they are going to show the full Tower of Joy scene. Bran and the Three Eyed Raven will probably be introduced to the whole thing, but it is such a big scene, and I don’t think they would show the entire thing.
On a side note however, if they reveal to us the R+L=J theory or whoever Jon’s parents are this episode, it would match up nicely with his resurrection and give us some more answers.
No way they reveal all of TOJ Sunday. This is a two parter for sure I think.
If Jon can’t talk that will be horrible.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
The Lord of Light granted her request after her faith crisis. The cost will be some of Jon’s humanity. He will execute Olly. He might also lose some of his memories of Winterfell, which Sansa will remind him of once she makes it to the Wall.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
The Umbers will gift Rickon to Ramsay because they are pissed at Jon for allowing the Wildlings to settle next to them. Sansa will join up with Jon Snow at the wall, and once safe, will send Brienne south to find Arya. Ramsay will send a letter to the wall asking for his wife and Reek back. Sansa will convince Jon and or Davos to rally the North to march on Winterfell. Jon will make Ed the new Lord Commander and rally the Wildlings to the cause of marching on Winterfell too.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Ned and his group will fight with Arthur Dayne and their group until only a few remain and then the vision will be cut short. Bran will decide to revisit the vision on his own.
Why do people think TOJ is going to happen on Sunday? Is this a spoiler? That seems like something that would happen at the end of the season.
I just want to see the look on Allisters face when he sees Jon walking and talking 🙂
what happens to the Night’s Watch? 1st ep they said all the commanders took part in killing Jon Snow… like the first Builder etc…. Jon can’t leave any of them in charge of the wall. will give the wall to Ed or the wildlings while he goes to find more troops?
Also, who is really on the Bolton’s side -_- The Umbers make me nervous bc of their gift… ppl speculate that it’s Rickon and my heart cannot take another Stark death 🙁
Walda lives, I’m calling it. They never showed confirmation of the kill.
Agree. Hope you’re right. That’s what I want to see happen. Hoping Theon changed his mind to stay with Sansa and Brienne–he’s got Stark connections to help align the North that the other Greyjoys don’t have.
Wouldn’t they have to set up TOJ with some context for show-only folks? Book readers know the entire backstory but iirc, the show only speaks of the “kidnapping, rape, and death” of Lyanna. No mention of Ned tracking her down with friends, etc. or have they mentioned more than I recall and it needs no explanation?
I don’t know how to make spoiler tags but the preview for next week showed the TOW scene. The actor playing Arthur Dayne mentioned on twitter that he would be in episode 3.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
They showed the Tower of Joy in the Ep. 3 Preview. Also I don’t think Walda survived that attack. The dogs were def. tearing into meat, she turned around to protect the baby.
I think there is a chance we are shown ToJ in multiple episodes. Perhaps just the battle sequence this week and then Lyanna and Jon’s reveal in another. I do recall a rumor of the director of it being for ep 5 or 6.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
I believe a combination of factors: R’hllor’s intervention and some form of participation of the old Gods (Ghost)
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Ramsay will slowly find that what he did was really stupid: of the three houses that are “supporting” the Boltons, I believe that the only one that truly supports him are Karstarks. I believe the Umbers and the Manderleys (or at least one of them) are playing a double agent role.
Plus, killing the Fat Walda is going to come biting him on the ass: Freys are not going to be happy. Chances are that to keep people quiet he will have to kill WF household, because it only takes a crow and a small piece of paper to let others know what is going on.
Plus, Sansa on the loose and rallying other people to her cause will paint Ramsay’s psycho personality in full. “He’s a monster”… a few tears and she’ll have’em on her hand like it happened with the Tyrells and the people from the Vale, before.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
R+L=J possibly. I would love to have some kind of information about the Daynes… a family I’ve always been interested in since I read the books and who in every single book (and the show, as Ser Arthur Dayne was mentioned by Ned and Barristan Selmy in season 1 and by Joffrey and Jaimie in season 4, I believe). Anyway, this last part is not likely, but I would really like it.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
I’m not sure. Really, I don’t know. Was it the Lord of Light? Or was it something else? The cost of him coming back to life…. Not sure? There was no sacrifice that we know of, which is her usual MO for increasing her mana – I mean, magic. I have so many questions now that The Big Question has been answered.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
I think Sansa’s going to make it to CB, Bri and Pod will leave her there with Jon & Davos and head wherever they end up in the second half. Ramsay will get his “gift”, which I think will cause him to do the whole “Winterfell is mine, come and see.”, et cetera, SNOWBOWL FUCKING CONFIRRRRRRRMED. Whoops, sorry.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
I also happen to agree with someone else who posted before, the whole ToF sequence is going to be broken up, not sure how yet.
Being stabbed numerous times by his brothers would be enough to change a man. I don’t think the resurrection will change him in a bad way. Maybe make him more hard, more aware that he’s here for a reason.
Roose’s words will come back as prophecy to Ramsey. No one wants to be under the control of a rabid dog.
Sansa will be traveling to earn support. I honestly don’t know what Jon will do. Will he even mention to folks that he was brought back to life when he leaves the Wall? He might have to if Mel is going to accompany him.
I think they can show all of Tower of Joy on Sunday. Why break it up?
6×03 opens in media res with Walda running through the woods to the same music as Sansa’s and Theon’s escape. She receives no aid and successfully reaches the Wall.
Whatever happens at TOJ, I think we find it all out Sunday. I can see them stretching it out over two episodes, but not 3, and episode 5 is the first that Bender directs and where some think it will be.
The price for Jon I think will be psychological. I don’t think Jon Snow gets a happy ending at the end of it all. I think he goes the way of the WW, dragons, and all that else. But there’s nothing shown so far that there’s an actual price for resurrection – just what the person himself has to bear.
And JS is already a mildly broody self-sacrificing bloke. 😉
Can you all add another question???
Does Sansa go to Castle Black and is she working directly with Jon?
R’hllor: and just like Stannis’ death or the handsome young man or any number of other things, this will never be explained any further.
The real price probably will be that Jon will feel some debt to R’hllor or be told that he has a debt, which could be a problem if Jon decides that the Red God is not a good thing.
Roose sends a red telegram demanding his wife back. No, perhaps a vermillion email. No, no: a powder blue postcard? Eh, whatever: the important part will be the words. While Jon goes out to meet him, 20 good men will kill most of the remaining brothers trying to find Sansa and Theon: and that is what is going to pave the way for the Walkers to get through. Jon will be elsewhere with Wildlings, who will be blamed for the deaths. That will help unite some of the Northerners behind the Boltons. (Some Young Turk takeovers might help this, too.)
Bran will learn that his half-brother is actually his full cousin. More important, we’ll learn what this really cost Ned; once Jon learns of this (how, I don’t know). We might get trivial details about Rhaegar and Lyanna, particularly if those are useful for making Ned feel really, really bad about himself as a human being….
Other things I see in the flames include Ted Cruz getting the Republican nomination and the Cincinnati Reds winning the World Series….. Wait: that stupid god always makes that prediction!
Well, keep in mind that Ned Stark survived his war: but one does not get the impression that he ever was living the “happy ending.”
And that is how the Wall collapses….
I’m kind of slow so I might just be misreading but I’m not really getting your answer for question 2. You think Ramsay sends the “I have Winterfell, come get it” letter, and then Ramsay shows up at Castle Black and kill the NWs? Where will Jon and the Wildlings be in this scenario?
If Ramsay has the rest of the NW killed and blames it on the Wildlings I guess this could be a reason why some houses join with the Boltons, though it wouldn’t really explain why the Umbers join the cause in episode 3, before this takes place.
If death always pays for life in the GoT scheme of things, the cost for Jon Snow’s revival was already arranged by Melisandre and more than horribly paid for by Stannis, his wife, his daughter.
The North will never follow the Boltons. It’ll be over once they hear Sansa and Arya are alive and Jon Snow marches on Winterfell. Ramsay will be put out like a mad dog, as his father predicted. The North remembers.
Tower of Joy episode will reveal Lyana (sp?) Stark was not a victim, and was in love with Rheagar, which the vain Robert Baratheon could never accept. She’s Jon’s mother, and possibly Meera Reed’s, too. There, again, death paid for Jon’s life.
This larger theme of death paying for life is being played out everywhere and points towards where the Song of Ice and Fire is heading. We see death paying for life everywhere: in the wages of slavery, war, and death that Dani must live with to rise; in the death of mothers paying for the lives of children (Jon, Dani, and Tyrion); in the deaths of Targaryan and Dornish and Baratheon children paving the way for lives of Kings.
What’s interesting now is that there is new resistance to death: the resistance of the sparrows and other commoners to their deaths paying for the lives of the privileged; the resistance of the Faceless men/women to Arya’s taking Death into her own hands; Jorah’s resistance to his disease; the dragons refusing to grill and eat Tyrion; maybe even Jamie not taking revenge on Trystane; and many characters overcoming death — Dani, Robert Strong, Beric Dondarrion, and now Jon Snow. All of this is pointing towards the larger resistance to Death that the humans are going to have to take on, collectively — the bigger war against Winter that will put all the petty human squabbles into place. Life will have to rally together to defeat Death, but first the characters have to resist their own petty death spirals.
Thinking this through from a mythological point of view, it never goes too well for humans when they defy death. It’s hubris. Death is part of life. But they are not fighting the natural order of things — they’re not pressing inappropriately for immortality. The living in GoT are fighting to put the order of things right again — for Death to stay dead. Death should not be allowed to overcome death. This is a battle that should be fought and is winnable because, at least according to Aristotle, is what heroes should do: try to put things right, however futile that might seem. The effort to do so is what makes us human.
I think Jon will be changed. A little less obviously. The truth is I don’t want to know. I want to be surprised. I think that sometimes our prognosticating leads to disappointment.
As to the North, I’m interested to see how Walder Frey reacts to having his daughter and grandson-who it should be noted was the new heir to Winterfell-offed it such a brutal way. Assuming he finds out. I also expect the Manderlys to trick the Boltons into thinking they have their support. Oh, and the fucking Umbers for some reason are going to give the Boltons Rickon. Mostly just to break our hearts.
I don’t know about TOJ. But I hope we get to see Lyanna eventually. And I’m dying to see young Ned. #Get ’em, Beanie!
Northern Lords gift for Ramsay will be Rickon. Giving Jon all the motivation he’ll need to take back Winterfell and put an end to the Boltons
LatrineDiggerBrian,
They never showed confirmation of the kill because they didn’t want to make people physically ill.
YES.
The price for Jon?
I’m guessing a combination of The Red God and The Old Gods paid for by Shireen (fire) and Stannis (blood at the base of a tree).
I don’t think he will go bad, perhaps he had visions while in the underworld and knows what’s comming and what needs to be done on a deeper level.
I have to think about the other two..
The
speculation has me confused. Why
I think there’s more here than a ball and tee.
Daegon,
My guess is that the price has already been paid by the death of Shireen, I know the snoe melted and Stannis could proceed, but one life for just some melted snow is way too cheap
Direwolf Lvr,
That’s actually not true. I have only watched the series but I know how Lyanna and Rheagar met, that they ran away together( Baratheon and stark story is that she was kidnapped and raped and that is what started the war), and about the tower of joy. It’s all been laid out in the series just in very small pieces throughout seasons.
Jack Bauer 24,
Would it, though??
Bringing Jon Snow back was a lame cliche move.
Its the dumb seekrit prince trope. I had expected more out of GRRM. On top of that as far as average TV audiences go its just another fake out death which they’ve seen two dozen times in the past year. Anyone who disagrees should google “Jon Snow back!” and “Glenn Rhee back!” There were literally hundreds of articles about TWD within a day of the Glenn reveal. It doesn’t seem like Jon’s return is making those kind of waves. Its old hat at this point and people are burnt on it. They shouldn’t have waited until this season too many other shows have stolen their thunder for it to have much of an impact outside of the core GoT fandom.
On a personal level I really do think that narratively it would have been more consistent and more original leaving him dead. If the resurrection theories are true that means a lot of Jon is the center of the universe theories are probably true as well. Meaning despite all his brave talk and sharp criticisms of other authors GRRM relies just as much on 50 year old cliches as anyone. Genuinely disappointed.
AzorAhigH,
This would make the most sense. That’s a lot of history to unpack in one episode. I think ep 3 will lay the groundwork for setting up the reveal so they can get more in depth later in the season as to what this means for Jon and his destiny going forward.
The North Remembers,
I just really want Ollie to become Ramsey’s new toy.
I subscribe to the theory that magic users in Westeros (and maybe Essos) just have the ability to tap into or channel some sort of ambient magic that is on the upswing during the “present” time frame. And any personification of said magic in the form of a god or gods, including such things as sacrifices required by said god or gods is just imaginings or at best speculation by said magic users and others.
I have too much to say on those other two questions so I had to tone it down. #1 I’m not sure yet. I have a kernel of doubt as to the how.
#2 Many awesome and terrible things-betrayals and true colors and a few more horrific Ramsay kills before someone finally gets the twisted hobbit and ends it.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy? Can I say this without spoiler tags? It MIGHT be broken into two parts in same episode, or two different episodes, but I really hope not. I want that whole thing all at once. The fight and what comes after.
They will be 7 against 3. We will finally see Jojen’s dad. There will be at least some amazing dialogue before that fight. There will be a bed of blood and a promise. And then we’ll know. Finally know…
…that I was right this whole time. *haha* (I hope so anyway, because if not my heart will break and I’ll owe people money)
1. Jon was resurrected when Mel said “please” after her prayer to the LoL. It might be different in the books, but that’s how it happened on the show.
As for after effects, he’ll be a bit “less” somehow. Maybe a bit more ruthless, a bit less naive. (I suspect Jon Snow will outright murder Ramsay Bolton after the latter surrenders at the end of BastardBowl.)
2. The “gift” will be Rickon Stark, given to Ramsay by the Umbers. Ramsay will consolidate his power by working his charm with the Karstarks, the Umbers, and the Manderlys, feeling that those three families will be enough to control the North.
Ramsay will either actually go to Castle Black, or he’ll send his Pink Letter. (Hence the Winterfell teaser promo … “Winterfell is mine … Come and see!”). He will demand his wife and his Reek, and taunt Jon with the fact he has Rickon. This is what will finally spark Jon Snow to become Jon Stark.
3. The more I think about it, the more I’m starting to realize that, despite how badly I wish otherwise, we’re not going to get the entire ToJ in E3, and R+L=J won’t be confirmed yet.
My speculation is based on two things. 1) Bran will need a conflict and things to do when he’s in that cave. Something will need to happen to cause him to leave the cave. 2) The casting call for “Young Stunner” (who I’m reasonably sure is Lyanna Stark) indicates that she has two scenes to act in.
So this is how I see Bran (and the ToJ) story playing out:
E3: The beginning of ToJ (the two groups meet. “Now it begins! / No, now it ends.” Maybe the beginning of the fight with Dayne killing one of Ned’s group.). Then TER says “enough” and forces Bran to leave the vision.
E4. Bran really wants to see more and is becoming more confident in his powers. He seeks out a vision and sees the kidnapping of Lyanna / the origin of Hodor. (Otherwise why hang the gun of Wyllis speaking normally if they’re not going to show how Wyllis became Hodor?)
E5/6. Bran is more emboldened after his successful solo vision and goes to see the end of ToJ. We get confirmation of R+L=J and “Promise me, Ned.”
E7. Bran starts to get serious hubris and decides he wants to end the War of Dawn himself and seeks out the Night King in a vision to find his weakness. This backfires as NK sees Bran, and figure out where Bran and TER are hiding.
E8. NK and his army finds the TER’s wierwood and burns it down. TER dies. Bran, Hodor, and Meera flee and are saved by Benjen Stark.
E10. Bran witnesses the Wall falling down as a result of magic being weakened due to the burning of TER’s wierwood. Winter is here, and the War of the Dawn officially begins.
Rickon is alive when he is gifted to Ramsay. A Stark alive in Winterfell gives Ramsay power, if he’s dead, you’re right it wouldn’t make sense
Only death can pay for life. I see three options, 1) Davos dies as he requested Mel perform the magic (and all those interviews Liam Cunningham did pre-season have me concerned this is his final season); 2) Shireen, bittersweet for Davos if he finds out Shireen being sacrificed has paid for Jon to be bought back; 3) TOJ in Epi 3 makes me wonder if they are going to imply Lyanna’s death has paid for Jon’s resurrection, though admittedly this is a long bow to draw given she died years ago.
Ramsay holding Rickon hostage will force Jon and Sansa into action against him.
I think we will get the whole flashback from TOJ this week, but like Cercei’s valonquar flashback, it will be an abbreviated version in some way. And surely they need some kind of connecting sequence for casual viewers about how Rhaegar and Lyanna actually met? And whether they eloped or he abducted her? We’ve had talk of both versions in the conversation between Littlefinger and Sansa in the crypts of Winterfell, and whilst I felt they were strongly implying in this sequence that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped, it will be interesting if they actually confirm it as Bran, like Sansa, would have heard the abduction version of the story from Ned.
I think Jon will be basically the same. For a while, confused and directionless and very uncomfortable with the Wildlings thinking he is some kind of god. Sansa’s arrival at CB, the updates they share, and whatever that freak Ramsay does will set Jon in motion. I think eventually, Benjen will return with Bran, Meera and Hodor and they will fill Jon in on who he really is. Viewers will know through the ToJ, but I think they’ll stretch that out for a couple of episodes. One inside, one outside. I hope not, because I really want to see Lyanna.
Do we know for SURE that the guys on horseback with Sansa watching the Bastardbowl from the hill are good guys? Someone had mentioned the fashion of the Karstark armour and the guy over Sansa’s right shoulder seems to be rocking the same. Sansa was at the Umbers. Why wouldn’t they have gifted Rickon back to her while she was there? Surely, they wouldn’t let her escape just to be recaptured. Theon’s gone. Brienne’s heading to the Riverlands. And surely they wouldn’t bring Rickon back just to kill him off.
Ramsay will implode in a big way, but not until they again remind us how vile he is.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
It seems there wasn’t a price for Beric’s resurrection, so why would there be one for Jon’s resurrection?. As Thoros said, they pray and god decides. I believe Jon still has a part to play in the war against White Walkers. It didn’t take more than a day, so I don’t think he changed so much. I suppose there must be a change in him though, maybe he lost some memories. There is a purpose for his resurrection. Mel will tell him he is the Lord of Light’s champion, Azor Ahai, the chosen one to lead humanity against the White Walkers, etc. As Lord Commander, I think he already felt that responsibility, but now it’s more clear for everybody else in Castle Black.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black? Jon will be back for this. Sansa will be on the move.
Sansa will arrive to Castle Black and tell Jon everything she and Theon have suffered at Ramsay’s hands. Also the Pink Letter will arrive: “Winterfell is mine, Come and See”. I hope Rickon isn’t the gift. If he is the gift, Jon and Sansa will have to move fast to gather support and go to Winterfell as soon as possible. Mel will tell Jon he saw him in the flames fighting in Winterfell. Davos will convince Jon to leave the Night’s Watch because he died. I suppose Sansa will stay with Jon, she is the legitimate Stark and they will go together to gather northerners support. Sansa will ask Brienne to look for Arya in the Riverlands.
Only Karstarks have a real reason to hate the Starks. I’m confused about the Umber’s support. I hope they are pretending and have a plan. It might go bad and the Umbers could end in the crosses.
How does the Vale takes part in this? Maybe Sansa will send a Letter to Littlefinger for support.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
It is possible that a mystery born in 1996 could be revealed this SUNDAY.
I’m expecting a great fight despite the changes. Arthur Dayne looks awesome in the preview. Then, I hope we finally have a scene between Ned and Lyanna and R + L = J.
I am REALLY hoping that the full Tower of Joy is this Sunday. But if it has to be cut into 2 episodes for a reason then it’s fine. But I am so eager to see it play out in full!
ToJ flash is definitely going to end before we find anything new out I think. I have HIGH hopes that maybe Ned will hear a baby crying before it cuts though!
1. Straight up Lord of Light action through Mel. Apparently for this to work you need a Red Priest or Priestess who’s recently had a crisis of faith and you need said Priest to say “please” during the ritual (since this is exactly how the first Thoros of Myr resurrection went down. Apparently no cost is needed, unless you think that residual magic from the sacrifice in episode 9 last year applies…the snow around Winterfell sure is remaining quite melty, given the shots we have seen of the upcoming battle there…) Oh, and I predict that quite a few Wildlings may start following the Red Woman’s religion? After all, in their minds she just proved her bona fides by resurrecting a dead man after praying to her “God”
2. Ramsey will send a “pink letter” to Castle Black demanding Sansa and Reek instead of Fake Arya and Reek, and the hostage in this case will be Rickon, not Mance. Mel sticks to Jon like glue ’cause in her mind now he’s “the one who was promised”. Jon will want to rile up his loyalists and go attack Winterfell, the Wildlings will want to follow Jon, who now they call King Crow (plus some of them may think he’s a “God” ’cause of the resurrection business) Thorne will accuse Jon of being an “Oathbreaker”, but Davos and/Ed will correctly point out that Jon died, so his Watch could be considered ended. Jon abandons the Black and puts on the Stark battle uniform. Davos points out that they don’t have enough men to attack Winterfell, even having a Giant and a Direwolf. Davos suggests that they need to rally the Northern Houses. Jon, a bit more reckless since coming back, still wants to go now… But is detained by the sudden arrival of Sansa, Pod and Brienne. Eventually Davos and Sansa go to Bear Island to start rallying the Banners, while Sansa sends Brianne and Pod to Riverrun for…reasons. I’m not so clear in what Jon is going to be doing at this point, unless he goes off to Bear Island too, presumably leaving Tormound and Ed in charge at Castle Black? Eventually Lord Manderly shows up to deliver his Mummer’s Farce speech (presumably not at Bear Island?)
3. TOJ will be divided in 2 parts; the fight will happen in episode 3 and the scene with Ned, Lyanna, the bed of blood and the “big reveal” perhaps happens in episode 5 or 6.
Oh, I don’t know about that. Wouldn’t the final shot of the premiere have been there to set us up for the price Melisandre is about to pay for the resurrection?
1. Mel didn’t resurrect Jon,
Bran and The 3 eyed Raven are at the Tower of joy and see Young Ned battle Arthur Dayne. Ned wins and finds his sister, who has given birth. She gives the baby to Ned, having him promise to protect the baby. The baby is Jon.
The 3 eyed raven then explains to Bran that Jon is a critical player in the future of the world. And he tells bran they have something very important to do and must leave.
Cut to Castle Black, Jon has not resurrected yet. Davos exits the room, same shot as previous episode. As the door closes, Bran and the 3 eyed raven appear in the room next to Jon’s body. This was what Ghost is reacting to. Bran is told to lay his hand upon Jon and as he does we see a fast forward flashback of the tower of joy and jon’s life and then Jon’s eyes open and we again see the scene from the previous episode where Jon gasps for breath. He then sits up knowing who he really is .
As a lover of the show adaptation and a book reader (and I read them first when they were published so it has been a loooong wait for TWOW), I feel strongly that D&D had no choice but to resurrect Jon since he (and his resurrection) is central to the entire GOT fire and ice world. He is GOT’s Christ figure – he died and rose from the dead and now will judge etc. He has to live because he IS one of the primary leaders of the fire forces (in fire v ice) – D&D did not have the option of removing him from the story. I agree that Christian parallels also imply he will eventually die again (and stay dead) but not before getting a dragon, raising and (co?) leading armies with his aunt (and uncle?) against the night’s king and saving at least some of the realms of men from necromancy. I also agree there will likely be a cost to Jon though I hope I am wrong – he was dead almost 24 hours vs Beric D’s few minutes which is a really long time to be dead and then resurrected in GOT (remember the very changed Lady Stoneheart anyone?)…Hopefully he warged into ghost while his body was dead and thus mostly preserved his sanity. Interestingly, by murdering Jon, most definitely A Thorne literally Killed the Boy who was Jon Snow and allowed Jon the man to be born as Maester Aemon had advised Jon before he died… On speculation about Ramsay’s gift – it seems like it is either Rickon or Theon. I would be surprised if the Manderlay’s truly back Ramsay given the Boltons and Freys murdered their family – book readers should recall Ser Davos’ visit the Manderlays hall where they fake hung him for the Freys and then sent him to find Rickon. Anyway, long story short I think Ramsay has made some serious miscalculations re his standing and how the North really feels about the Bolton role in the red wedding as well as the need to have a stark in winterfell when winter is coming! We shall see – I can’t wait!!!.
I guess you need to see the HBO preview for the episode…
Wouldn’t it be great to get a Harrenhall tourney flashback – would love to see the real L+R story live as well as the backstory re Lyanna’s defense of Meera and Jojen’s dad (and her disinterest in RB)… That should come before the toj mystery, right? Especially given RT was off at the Trident with Robert when the TOJ conflict occurs…
Starkinwinterfell,
Seems pretty clear they’re just following the outline that GRRM gave them which Jon is a significant part of. It’s amazing to me that people are now bitching that him being brought back is a trope and that GoT is selling out because this show made its mark by not following tropes. Why don’t we see how it plays out before dismissing it as a predictable move? I’ve said it before: If killing him/bringing him back is just a device to free him from his vows, then its much ado about nothing. But if it brings in deeper, richer elements of the story, then I’m totally on board.
Apologies for what you are about to read because I am just a fan fantasizing how the story goes based on what I watched so far and read so far. (but I am really into this show).
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
When Thoros of Myr resurrected ‘what’s-his-name,’ it did not cost him or the guy much except for maybe a slight change each time and since I think I heard Torment say something like “they think your are God,” which means Jon Snow (who will be told this type of thing) is sensible and make normal calls (I am not sure who Tormund is talking to but Jon Snow should be the one). So all these stand to reason that Jon Snow was resurrected without any cost.
How? Maybe by magic but I think Jon’s case is way more important and related to the “Gods’ design” so there are good chances that this may be left equivocal.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Now Ramsay Bolton will stick to the original plan he mentioned to Roose, his father. Karstark has nay in this because he wants a reckoning. What I predict is :
Jon will start to form a band of soldiers. Free folk, most of the remainders of Rob’s army (Karstark and some of his followers, together with banished soldiers of Castle Black like Alliser Thorne, will join Bolton’s side. Ramsey may even use fugitives as a pretext to attack Castle black. Frey will join Ramsay and the ironborn maybe split into two sides. There will even be altercations and the island may go into an uproar. I wonder what the scene in the teaser, the one where Theon is being baptized in the “way of” Iron islands means here. I don’t know what will happen but Jon and Sansa will survive till close to the end (if they are to die, it will be a game changer and a big sacrifice, at least the one that makes them the corner stones of the next empire) so at least until such time as they have to face white walkers or the “Westeros Game of Thrones Final battle,” Starks will grow strong over many conflicts and go into the final battle. So maybe this season will witness the epic battle between Team Bolton and Team Stark and Stark will reclaim Winterfell. At some point white walkers will appear. I think it will be toward the end of the season (they will come into Bran’s vision, though) and may even take the wall.
As for Arya, she may help Rickon. I can’t tell what will happen to Rickon and Osha (Sansa, Arya, Jon and Bran cannot die at least for a while) but if someone from the house Stark dies, it will be Rickon. Or maybe all the other members die to open a path for Rickon and he or Bran will rule like 1000 years or something. I kind of feel that Jon is Jesus and someone else will be the true king who will rule the kingdom for a good long time.
OBTW, my question is what role Lady Stoneheart will play in this and what role the house Tully will play in this.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
R + L = J theory makes a lot of sense to me. So there we will know that Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark and Raegar Targaryen. Lyanna tells Jon that she was in love with the king and leaves their son to Ned. To keep the secret, he will announce he is his son and maybe Hodor will lose his speech. Ben will decide to join Castle Black and maybe after this revelation, there will be an episode about Benjen Stark. He might even die and leave the show after he achieve something based on the promise he made with Lyanna like telling Jon the true parentage of him. (or remains by his side, I don’t have any clues. It just that if it’s his last words to Jon, it sounds cool but I want more of Ben, too, so I am at odds).
Thank you for reading my poor predictions and I want to add that I am really enjoying predictions by other people here.
I’d love this, too, but there’s no real evidence they shot it, at least that I know of. But I think seeing a bit of it might give the Tower of Joy some emotional context.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Have you seen the episode 3 trailer?
Q1)
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
ans- I think the red priests job during the ressurection is to connect the the person who is to be ressuracted to the Lord of light ….In belive it was Lord of light …who gave Jon his life back. But there is more to it then simple ressurection …. ….Jon must’ve seen what future beholds ….He must’ve seen the destruction that comes with the winter and the white walkers ..He was already aware but perhaps now he has seen the true massive destruction scale …… so perhaps comes out a more fire zombie man ……like we need an army …We need to hold them as long as we can …and perhaps he has seen dany and her dragons …
as per the cost ….whatever I said above tells me one thing ..Jon isn’t gonna live happily ever after….He will be a man without the soul like the TERMINATOR JON. ….and ultimately he will sacrifice himself in the end….
Q.2) What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
This one is a simpler question ….Ramsey will gather an army …He will have the help of some Lords of the north who don’t want the same old leadership …of the starks coz once already they followed a stark and it didn’t end so well for most houses …still there will be stark faithful houses in the north …If the gift is Rickon. ….depends on umbers ….then I see Ramsey blackmailing Jon ….I see northern leaders warning Ramsey against attacking castle black in winter….coz we saw what happened to stannis ….even if the Boltons are from north unlike stanis sacking castle black in such torrid conditions won’t be a good idea …so better …They will blackmail Jon ….Jon and sansa and Davos recuirt their army ,..Ramsey will have his army…and it will be a big battle….littlefinger is going to take part in this battle mark my words
Q3) What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
ans : we will see bran wanting to know more about her aunt …..so we might see some other scenes before tower of joy. ..
later in Tower of joy …stark and his team will try to reach lyanna. ..that’s when that scene from preview and trailer will happen ….and just before .ned enters blood raven will bring bran back to reality .He won’t and we won’t see all of it…
wow …….I wrote all that !!!!!!!!
Starkinwinterfell,
I would love KoTLT but I don’t think they have time to do it. Especially not if they’re being linear, since they’re starting ToJ in next episode. There is a chance though. Jojen didn’t tell that story on way to raven like he did in the books. Maybe they wanted to show it instead?
Jon Snow,
George,
The North Remembers,
Kamali,
Nah I try to avoid the trailers, but I might as well watch them as most people mention what’s in them in the comments. I agree if its TOJ it’s only going to be a snippet, the final outcome won’t be till the end of the season.
Shannon,
lol That would be a twist I did not see coming! If they sent Olly as “Rickon” lolololol
At the end though, it all falls on the Umbers loyalty…. are they truly siding with the Boltons because they’re upset about their new wildling neighbors OR is a double cross and they’re truly loyal to the Starks?
There is one piece of evidence from the trailer has me worried though. 🙁 🙁 🙁 I believe it was the 2nd or 3rd trailer that showed Ramsey cleaning his knife (the way he just did with Roose) while sitting at the foot of what appeared to be Brans old bed……. who did he just kill then? I had hoped it was Roose or Walda but now that they’re dead I have no idea who he stabbed 🙁
Ravyn – agree completely that the bitching re Jon’s resurrection as predictable/trope/cliche is idiotic given this plot line was set out years ago and is entirely central to the meta story. I think the resurrection is much more than the need to break the Night’s Watch oath and was GRRM’s plan from inception – both Jon and Bran are central to team Fire I think in Fire v Ice as is Dany and hopefully Tyrion. I recall stories (from Nan?) of an ancient Night’s King who may have been a Stark and a powerful necromancer Wizard and wonder if that is the identity of the current night king. Bottom line is it seems in the GoT’s verse trying to live forever like the night king is evil – All Men Must Die, right? So maybe it is permissible to be resurrected for a little extra time in the service of the greater good but not for thousands of years like the Night King and not without cost. So will wait and see what happens!
The North Remembers,
I’m really worried the Umbers are returning Rickon too. I’ve almost accepted that he’s going to die so if he doesn’t I’ll be pleasantly surprised. I’ve decided that’s the best tactic to take with this show. I’m loving this season because even though the stories seem to be converging, there are still so many wild cards.
Shannon,
I’m actually more worried about Osha and Shaggy Dog than Rickon, hahaha.
Starkinwinterfell,
I think what some people were cribbing about was not that Jon was brought back, but rather why was he killed in the first place if he was going to be resurrected in 2 episodes. Which is a fair question since the show has not answered that question yet. I think we will get that answer in the following episodes and then people will understand why it was necessary to go through the death/ resurrection route. I hope it is for a reason more than just to free him from the NW vows. Also I hope they spend some time examining the effects of this event on Jon. My guess is he will have come back more hardened, ruthless. He will be more focused about getting the job done even if it means having to compromise on his sense of right. He might not be so stringent about honor etc. I am really waiting to see how it plays out.
Regarding the ToJ, my guess is we will not get the entire sequence in one episode. It will be spread over a few episodes, mainly because of what the 3 ER said about not spending too long in a vision. I might be wrong though.
1.- He is not Jon anymore, he will be the Avatar of The Lord Of Light a cruel tyrant.
2.- Ramsay begins rallying his men, “Jon” does the same. Ramsay arrives very close to castle black and finds some of his allies being burned mocking his house sigil. The gift the Umbers bring to Ramsay is Shaggydog.
3.- R+L= J & M.
I’ve been mulling this one for a while….
Davos has shown time and time again he is Stannis’ man through and through. He got sent back to Castle Black by Stannis, and now it seems very uncharacteristic of him to have forgotten about Stannis and cling on to Jon Snow so much that he would keep Jon’s body in hopes of asking Melisandre to do something about it…
Even if he knows Stannis is dead, that just seems off to me. Why so attached to Jon? Or is Davos serving a greater purpose ie serving as a plot device to get the ball rolling for Jon’s resucitation….
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost? I have a feeling he was in Ghost all this time, and maybe ghost was waiting for the right time? A possible result might be a shortening of his life, or maybe the loss of his warging potential?
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black? He’ll overstretch himself in trying to maintain control. He’ll be presented with his ‘gift’ which he will gleefully toy with before using it to goad Jon + Sansa. I think time and events are pretty much cyclical, so where Roose unleashed the dogs to kill Walder, he will be eventually by ripped to shreds by a pack of direwolves maybe?
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy? R+L=J. Ned will swear the secret to protect Jon, but maybe Hodor knows(or finds out), so is silenced so he cannot reveal the truth?
The man barely mourned his son. In the end he cared a lot more about the Princess than about Stannis. The man places a wise bet on Jon:
* He knows the army of the Death is coming very soon.
* His king is dead, defeated by the Boltons that can only mean trouble.
* Wildlings are south of the wall now meaning conflict is near.
* The Night’s Watch is upside down.
* Maybe he doesn’t care but by association he owes a shitload of money to the iron bank.
Davos is a true veteran, he has seen a lot of the world and has been around more than anybody else in the show, he is the best advisor in both Westeros and Essos. He knows what he is doing: at the center of all the upcoming conflicts Jon Snow is the only chance Westeros has right now plus there’s nothing left to lose. Why not give him a chance?
1. The cost of Jon resurrection was paid to the gods in the form of Balon Grejoys death. He was one of the three with Rob & Joffrey on Mel’s earlier ‘hitlist’.
2. Ramsey will unite the houses and send word to the wall that he has Rickon and unless Sansa & Theon are returned. this is when Sansa gets out of 3rd gear and raises an army with Jon…..
3. The TOJ seen will play out and that is the only place in the books where the term ‘oathbreaker’ is used. Referring to Jaime killing the mad-king. It could be in 2 parts?
Please don’t give us Jon MkII: wiser, better, stronger, faster. There has to be a real cost or else it just feels like a stunt by GRRM to make us want TWoW more…
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Errm in the trailer for episode 3 it was there!
Keep up lad.
Winter is coming
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Jon was resurrected by R’hllor through Melisandre. All the false pretenders from the War of Five Kings finally died (remember the leeches) and I think that also might have played a role. Jon was only dead for almost a day, so I don’t expect any drastic changes. He will be scared and confused upon resurrection, but he has learned his lesson: Kill the boy, and let the man be born.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Jon and Sansa will start recruiting Northern houses to their cause with the help of Davos. No idea what Mel will do….check out Kit’s back muscles?? jk
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
I think we will get the context of the fight from Bloodraven, as he walks with Bran to the Tower of Joy. We will probably only see the fight and Bran will want to know what’s inside the tower (behind The Door). Personally, I would have preferred the full reveal (open the episode with the full Tower of Joy vision, and then cut to that shot in the preview with Jon getting up). Oh well…. maybe Bloodraven will finally reveal his identity to Bran after the twist (and why he has shown him these visions).
1. I don’t like resurrections so I don’t really care. I would prefer Bran and/or Ghost to be involved in some way as IMHO Jon belongs to the North and the Lord of Light doesn’t. It would be amusing if the death that paid for Jon’s life was Roose and Jon now has some of Roose’s ruthlessness and cunning.
2. Ramsay will die in the end (of this season).
3. We might be in for a surprise. Lyanna was introduced watching her brothers fight and not sing. We will get introduced to Arthur Dayne as the most badass fighter ever. Jon Snow is established as a badass fighter. Rhaegar Targaryen has not been cast or mentioned in Season 6 so far. From a tv storytelling perspective it makes much more sense if Arthur Dayne is Jon’s father, Ned just killed him in an inhonorable way, and dying Lyanna tells Ned that he was Jon’s father and asks him to promise her to never tell Jon that Ned killed him.
When Beric got resurrected he was fine so Jon will be as well, other thing, TOJ is split in half, they told you that in episode 2 vision: “it is beautfull beneath the sea, but if you stay too long you will drown” so we will get a entering fight scene and when Ned enters TOJ he will stop the vision until episode 6
1. Jon was resurrected because Melissandre stopped trying to “cast” a spell and instead asked desperately for her lord’s help. That’s how Thoros described his state of mind when he managed to raise Beric the first time.
Jon may, as Beric, loose a bit of himself (or more than a bit, Beric was always raised directly after death, Jon had time to decay).
2. Ramsey made an alliance with the Kastarks, the Umbers and the Manderlys (the 3 houses he mentioned before stabbing his dad). The Umbers are supposed to hide/protect Rickon so he may have a role to play in the conflict (as a bargaining chip). I think that Sansa will recruit one of these houses and either make it betray Ramsey, or will be betrayed herself.
3. I don’t think we’re ready for the TOJ main revelation yet so the glimpse we’ll get next sunday will only be the first part of a sequence that will end later.
You’re right, they dropped the ball on this one. They needed to show us something that made Davos so desperate to bring back Jon, that he would ask the woman he hates with a passion to do it. And people can be like, well some stuff you just have to assume happens off screen. Nope. Not major stuff like that, like a character completely doing an about face about his relationship with another character that he has a strong history of hatred with, and one he barely even knew.
My only hope is the first scene of episode 1 where Davos stares for a long time at Jon’s blood in the snow. Maybe that made him realize something that will be explained later?
I intentionally don’t watch the previews so as to keep something as a surprise for the next episode.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Hopefully, it won’t be due to Melisandre. To land praise on her, and blow out all those doubts she’s had, for me it’s too soon. We should see her wrestle with her faith, or loss of it for a while longer. (No, it is not lack of faith. It is loss. Different things.)
What I’d wish for is linked to what’s been mentioned previously. Jon entered 2nd life inside Ghost. Surely, as Jon had kicked the bucket, it would’ve made sense for a wildling to try taking over Ghost. Direwolves are the most revered amongst animals, by wildlings. It is known.
From the trailer for ‘Oathbreaker’, something is said along the lines of ‘They think he’s a God’. If Mel says it wasn’t her (which I hope), then that opens the door for someone to try taking over Ghost. Wouldn’t a powerful entity, in 2nd life, be seen as a God, by most wildlings, particularly skin-changers?
If it is due to other outside forces, who would that be? Prime candidates would be Bran or Bloodraven, or Night’s King. But, what if…..? How close is Thoros of Myr? Isn’t he due to return?
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
When Two Tribes go to WAR, a point is all that they can score.
Ramsay is hot-headed enough to follow up hi threat. Now Jon’s here…..? A version of Bastard Letter, I think, would be plenty for him to become an Oathbreaker, after a fashion. He’d really be leading a force to defend Castle Black from attack, which isn’t, technically, oathbreaking. When someone interferes with running of NW, LC has to respond.
Somehow, I think this could be where either (f)Arya, or Rickon (probably fake) become Ramsay’s trophy to display, and have as his ‘guest’. That word could be used in this version of Bastard Letter, which would bring to mind the previous time Starks were guests of someone.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
“Not it begins” + “Now it ends” = Classic fight-starter! Given the KG oath, they’d not be keeping it when they fail to defend whoever’s inside.
“Ned! Promise me!” is the line I’m waiting to hear. Maybe this could be held over, if Bloodraven thinks Bran’s been ‘there’ long enough. It seems like it’s appropriate for ‘Book Of Stranger’ than ‘Oathbreaker’.
1. Jon will be like a zombie for a while. I recall Tormund saying I thought he is the one would lead us during the long night. Hopeless Tormund will attack Winterfell with wildlings and at the brink of defeat Jon will arrive after being “healed” by Bran.
2. No idea
3. R+L=J
Jon- brought back by Mel’s plea with help from the old Gods; effect on Jon, may be more like the old Starks as far as physical, it was quite cold so I think degeneration was slowed also, the other cost depends does it have to be paid before or after? it’s clear no sacrifice was needed for Dondariin, but if life pays for death and needs to be paid first it was Shireen, if after well there is a gift being brought to Ramsey.
At the wall: PL, Sansa letting Jon know they still have family, they splitup rallying houses.
TOJ: At least two episodes we learn Jon’s parents, now it ends, promise me, and returning Dawn.
1. Jon Snow was resurrected as a combination of warging and Melisandre’s prayer to the Red God, I think. It is uncertain if the show wants to delve into the warging business, but I hope so for Jon, Arya and Rickon.
The cost better be something, because of all that talk from Dondarrion. But I hope Jon will become a more ruthless version of himself, not a “bad” guy.
2. In the North there must be a lot of double play and misdirection. They can’t otherwise fill a season. Got my hopes up for Rickon and Osha too. Sansa should crush it this season (with Davos?)! Ramsey’s time on GoT is up I sincerely hope.
3. We get to see Lyanna. They have to show it! The battle will of course also be featured, and I vote for a Howland Reed name drop as a minimum. Always nice with connections. If he has a bigger role, all the better!
If this is serious, please never speculate again – the most ridiculous theory I have ever heard!
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
I’m not sure but somehow think that some of his memories will be impacted. There’s always a cost so it remains to be seen. A piece of his humanity gone?
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
I believe Sansa will make it to Castle Black, I also want to believe that the “pink letter” will arrive maybe after she and Davos leave for Bear Island? Somehow I think Jon won’t immediately leave for WF and that he will be torn in regards to his oath to the Night’s Watch.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
I hope we get the “entire” flashback, maybe an abbreviated version? I want to “hear” what Lyanna asks Ned to promise, but it would be a long scene to get all of that so not sure. I hope we are all right that R+L = J.
3. If we don’t get “Promise me, Ned” the nerdrage will be a joy to behold 🙂
1. When Beric Dondarrion explained to Arya that every time he was resurrected he lost a little bit of himself, I thought he meant physically, as in the wounds that killed him would always remain visible; therefore, I think Jon Snow’s stab wounds will always be there as a reminder that he was once dead. Also, in the book it is Beric who resurrects you-know-who, not Thoros, and the cost is that Beric finally loses his own life for real. I suppose if Jon is ever faced with the task of resurrecting someone else far down the road then he will truly die too.
2. What will happen in the North eventually I think is that the houses who seem to be supporting the Boltons now will ultimately betray Ramsay because of what he did to his father, step-mother and baby brother. However, Walda was pretty fat and when she turned she seemed to fall on top of her baby. Perhaps she saved him and one of the servants will find him. I like to hold onto the idea that despite the attempts to annihilate an entire family, i.e. the Reynes of Castermere, followed by the Targaryens, the Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, etc., there will always be at least one to survive in order to carry on that bloodline.
3. Popular theory about the Tower of Joy is R+L=J and I see no need to dispute this because there has been so much foreshadowing of this revelation that I’d be very surprised if something else happened. But I love this new idea that perhaps Meera could be a twin sister? That would be awesome if it hadn’t already been done in Star Wars and Heroes Reborn.
I think:
What do you think boys and girls ?
The show is different from the books. In the books Jon is a warg and this is clearly set up to allow him to come back without losing mental faculty or character. Maybe some physical flaws but that’s it.
The show doesn’t need that. They didn’t play up Beric Dondarions drawbacks, he mentions bits get chipped away, but that’s all and in general he is presented fairly normally. Lady Stoneheart doesn’t exist in the show. The show doesn’t need a loophole, they can skip over that.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Jon was resurrected due to Mel’s connection to the supernatural, either R’hllor or the Old Gods. She’s able to access some sort of fantastic force and used it to put life back into his body. Shireen’s sacrifice may have been the price she paid if we are to believe that “only death may pay for life” (there has to be some payoff for Shireen’s death, unless it was to show the futility of such an act).
Jon will return relatively whole due to his connection with Ghost. I think the “dehumanising” elements are due to a person being yanked from some sort of beyond, from some parts of them being “lost” on the way. They return pale imitations of themselves. Jon’s connection with Ghost allowed the core of him to remain safely tucked away, not in the sense that Jon’s mind was stuck into Ghost’s body, fully conscious and aware, but in the sense that some “pure” form of him was preserved. Melisandre breathed life into him and was somehow able to shove this back into his corpse. As a result, the Jon that returns won’t be as “hollow” as Beric was. Sure Jon’ll be jaded–his men, including his protege just stuck him full of knives–but I don’t think he’ll have lost as much of his personality/humanity/memories as have others.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
The North will be divided. There’s been enough groundwork laid to suggest that Jon’s acceptance of the Wildlings won’t be well-received by northern lords, particularly those in close proximity to the Gift. It’ll take some serious work to bring the Umbers round, if they do at all, and
Other houses will align with Jon and/or Sansa–the Mormonts, Cerwyns, etc. The Cerwyns have experienced Ramsay’s cruelty and the Mormonts have already declared their allegiance to the king named Stark. I don’t know if Jon and Sansa will reunite this early in the season, but it would be nice to see them to work together and pool resources. It will also be interesting to see what role Littlefinger plays–I feel like he’s lurking somewhere!
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Episode 3: Ned’s forces meet the Kingsguard, have an exchange, and battle it out. Ned and Howland Reed advance on the Tower. I’m really hoping for the full “I looked for you on the Trident” exchange, but feel that if we get it, there won’t be enough time for Ned and Lyanna this episode.
Bran wakes up and potentially discusses with Meera, who recalls what her father’s told her about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. This could be in episode 3 or later and lays the groundwork for Lyanna and Rhaegar being in love.
Episode 5/6 (if rumours are correct about TOJ scenes): Ned and HR find Lyanna.
R’hllor brought Jon back, trough Mel. It wasn’t the ritual but the sincere ”Please”. Just like Thoros did.
There will be no cost, perhaps you can count Stannis/Shireen here if you really want.
Jon won’t be different at all. Beric was changed only after 7 times.
He will only ”kill the boy” like Aemon told him. He will be more determined.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Just like with Thoros Melisandre gets to see her greatest miracle when her faith is shattered. It was R’hllor, the only god that really has evidence of existing in GoT (with a strong argument for the Old Gods as well). His body was healed by R’hllor through Melisandre’s prayer and his spirit, resting in Ghost, was returned to his body. Because of his warging we might not see a cost like with Beric but Jon is definitely going to be a changed man, colder and less trusting. He is free of his vows to the Night’s Watch and was legitimized by Robb, so technically he is the heir to Winterfell and the North.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
The minor houses such as Glover and Mormont are going to follow Jon and Sansa because of their hatred of the Boltons. The Karstarks and Umbers have apparently pledged their loyalty to Ramsay and will stand with him. With interest is the Manderlays, I feel that in the end they will betray the Boltons and reveal themselves to be loyal to the Starks in the end, they owe far too much to the Starks to betray them. Karstarks may be kin to the Starks but Robb burned that bridge, the Umbers won’t forgive Jon for his actions with the Wildlings but their betrayal is still stunning. Anyway next couple episodes will be a gathering the banners between the Starks and Boltons before the two eventually clash for Winterfell, the seat of the North. The winner will have to deal with the South though and that will probably hang in the back of everyone’s mind.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
The outcome of the deal we all already know. Ned and Howland will then enter the tower, find Lyanna on her death bed. She will hand Ned a child and make him promise her that he will raise the child as his own. The Stark theme will transition into the Targaryean theme as Lyanna gasps out the child’s name, Jon. Bloodraven will explain to Bran what he just witnessed, the birth of the son of Rhaegar Targayean and Lyanna Stark- a man Bran knows as Jon Snow. Real question is wheter or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed in secret so Jon has a claim to the throne or not.
There clearly was no warging involved. I’m a bit supprised people still insist on this.
I’ve never bought this argument and here’s why:
I don’t think either Jon’s character or his journey is as simple and stereotypical as you’re making them out to be. The “hero” may have been brought back, but I think Jon’s more likely to reject his “secret prince” identity than embrace it. Many of his core beliefs–about himself and the world around him–stem from his identity as Ned’s son and proud Northman. People take one look at him and think wow, you’re the epitome of a Stark. That’s something he’s immensely proud of, which has allowed him to endure much of the chaos he’s been through. Imagine he learns of his ties to Rhaegar, the Targaryens and the south of Westeros. Do you think he’s likely to give up everything he knows about himself? It’s going to cause immense inner turmoil, and he may just up and decide that he’s Ned Stark’s son no matter who fathered him, that he’s a Stark and that’s all that matters, and that that will be what continues to guide him.
Such a decision would be in frank defiance of the “he’s been a prince all along!” trope and that sort of rejection is absolutely in keeping with GRRM’s narrative. Typically the hidden prince is overjoyed as the news and fully embraces his new identity, that identity providing the pathway to achieving his goals. Jon may end up with an aunt and some fiery new friends, but there’s not much he’s looking for that his identity as Ned Stark’s son didn’t give him. Learning the identity of his mother wouldn’t be worth losing Ned as his father. He’s made peace with his bastard status and he’s still going to feel more kinship with the North. He has absolutely no interest in the Iron Throne. Suddenly he’s the legitimate heir to the kingdom? Not exactly on his Christmas list.
It may also cause potential allies to look upon Jon with suspicion because hey, granddad Targaryen was crazypants and murdered a bunch of Northmen. Dany wouldn’t look kindly upon another claimant to the throne and may resent any connection Jon might have with her dragons. In short, instead of being the solution to his problems, Jon’s princely identity/heritage is going to create new ones, complicate his life emotionally and politically. It wouldn’t surprise me if he turned his back on the whole thing.
Sorry to answer a question with another, everyone else pretty much covers any possible answer I’d have thought of. I’m wondering where Littlefinger fits into all of this. He was in a trailer and appeared to be in the northern woods.
Inquisitor1961,
Jon isn’t Stannis to let this happen.
The North Remembers,
Maybe Alliser will be saved by the Lord of Light when he sees the resurrection, and will lead Jon’s holy army at the Wall – hallelujah! Lol…
Blanche Holstein,
You want filming stuff or only speculations?
Inquisitor1961,
I’m leaning more on a pardon to be honest.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Jon will be changed. Not because he was ressurected, but because he was murdered. Sorry, for being crypric… I simply guess, I you experience treason, it makes you far more careful in life.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Obviously, Ramsay sends that letter with the content of the trailer: “Winterfell is mine. Come and see…” to provoque a war, which will happen in Ep. 9. Untill then we see Ramsay, Jon and Sansa calling the banners and preparing for battle. I am very curious to see Rickon’s return, but I fear for him at the same time… ’nuff said.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
It seems, that they will split the visions up to several episodes… But,… “what will happen?” Dunno… HYPE WILL HAPPEN!!! 😀
Yes he’s quite the unknown element! His storyline with Sansa remains unresolved –surely there has to be some post-Ramsay confrontation. I’m guessing that he’s either been lurking in the North somewhere or returned to the Eyrie. Perhaps he’ll hear rumours of Sansa gathering allies and come to investigate? If she/Jon lets him live, perhaps his penance will be to rally the Vale troops and join them later in the season. I can’t see him surviving S6, but who knows with Littlefinger!
After the deaths of Doran, Trystane, Balon and Roose the MFG was so in good mood that he brought one soul back. Or someone stole a soul, that wasn’t planned, and the death payed for life ?Maybe he could not recognize Sansa anymore
Isabelle,
He’s already doing that.
He said last year, that he intends to march on the North and take WF, with the Vale army.
Cersei herself gave him permission to invade the North.
Fair enough, though with Littlefinger you never know if he’ll actually do it ? I’m figuring that he meets with Sansa, it’s rather awkward due to his being responsible for her marriage to Ramsay, and she’s all “you had BETTER come through with those troops!”
He could also try to drive a wedge between Sansa and Jon. I don’t think it’ll work, but it would be up his alley.
Isabelle,
I don’t care if Ramsay’s mutts chow on LF, we need those Vale troops! 😀
Isabelle,
Im over him – time for LF to die.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
HBO released a preview of episode 3 and it had the TOJ scene in it 🙂
1.its melisandre..people really need stop looking every thing as a mystery.. And some of the things that people come up with like balon death or ghost doing it is ridiculous.
I think the cost will be personal one for Jon …he will be psychologically traumatized afterall he has seen and been in the darkness..
And for those who have been saying that the resurrection was disappointing and expected some grand event I was saying this over a year …Jon coming back will be a personal one and not a event that will be having an effect on the world like dragons being born ..even if he walks out of pyre it will not change anything in the world or have an impact .
3.I wish we get the whole TOJ in this episode and be done with it …I don’t like the idea of breaking it up ..I think there are bigger mysteries now being set up like HoDoR we can end this mystery now ..
And if bender was seen directing the fight scene which will be shown in this episode …its entirely possible that the indoor scenes was directed by someone else and could be in episode 3. ..
Another reason why I hope to see the complete TOJ is that if we just have the fight between KG and StarkMen then I believe next week will be full of people bitching and complaining about dual wielding Arthur dayne and absence of dawn .
1- i think the cost will be a large part of jon’s humanity. I can see him wake up and walk right into the cells and slaughter the mutineers. That would be a great way to show hes not the same, old jon wouldve probably pardoned them somehow and said they will be needed for the war to come.
2-i think ramsay is going to embrace a lot of what roose has been teaching him. If you notice ramsay has been getting the most advice out of any character, every time hes been on screen with roose hes been getting advice and lectures. I still think the ultimate twist will be ramsay wont die at all and instead there will be an alliance formed after the battle against the undead. We even had reports of them all meeting in winterfell.
3-tower of joy i have a feeling we will get a reveal of more than one theory. I think it will be more co plicated than just r+l=j
1. How will resurrection affects him? There will be price to pay. If we’re going to get same Jon as before, I would be really dissapointed. Otherwise whole point of killing his is to get him out of Night’s Watch and be a player. It needs to change but not much. Not on LSH level.
2. What will hapen i nthe North? Umbers will bring gift to Ramsay. Maybe Rickon or someone that valuable? But who? He’ll unite the Karstarks, the Umbers, the Manderlys and send a letter to Jon. He doesn’t know about mutiny. What is in the letter? Give me bck my bride, Reek, I got Rickon? Jon will try to bring some Northern lords along with Davos. Sansa too but depends where she’ll get. Castle Black is too obvious but oculd be.
3. Fight. Ned, Arthur and all that. We might get whole TOJ in one episode or not. Something tells me it’s not that simply we thought it would be. Promise to keep baby alive. Because othrwise Ned would’ve succeded and he failed. He remember is in his fever dreams. He kept him alive but what if something else was promised there at Tower of Joy.
#1. I am not sure we will have a definitive answer on how Jon was brought back, I think for now everyone will assume it was Mel’s words. I think the cost of the resurrection will be parts of Jon’s personality will be different. I can see him being much less diplomatic and more revenge oriented. Where previously he was more caring and used strategy and diplomacy to his advantage. I think Jon Stark will be more ruthless in his progression.
#2. I think Jon and Sansa will both have a single-minded approach to retake Winterfell. I think Ramsey will add fuel to the fire. I can see a scenario where Theon also figures into Ramsey’s ultimate demise.
#3. I believe TOJ will be what we think it to be R+L=J with a twist also. I think there will be 2 R+L babies. Howland Reed took the girl and Ned Stark took the boy.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Look, I’ve read the books and watched the whole series. I would like to find some parallels between Bran’s “coma” and Jon’s. I mean, at the first episode of S6, we saw and heard Ghost mourning, then, when he was brought near to Jon’s body, he was kind of sad but calm. Same thing occurred with Bran and Summer. It is just my guess. I want to believe that he was warging into Ghost. That being said, I think that would be great if the show doesn’t make that clear, I mean, Melisandre would take credit but Jon will have memories of wolf dreams.
About the cost. In the second trailer we hear the voice of Tormund saying: “I thought he was the man to lead us through The Dark Night. But I was wrong”. So, maybe he is talking to Jon about Mance, and telling Jon that now he has to fight the Night’s King or, he is talking to someone else, let’s say Davos, and complaining about what he thought was true.
I think that maybe Jon will come back a little lost about what is his porpouse, and I’m guessing that he might cast some of his friends away and join Melisandre. Davos and Tormund leave Castle Black. Davos will seek for Sansa and Tormund and the Wildings are going to clash against the Bolton’s and some other Northern houses, and then, at some point, Jon will take part and embrace his fate as a Stark and the one who will lead the army of the living against the army of the dead.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Sansa goes to Bear Island and the Mormonts proclaims her the Queen in The North. Ramsay gets his gift, which I think is Rickon and then he send the famous “Pink Letter” and we hear that line from the teaser: “Winterfell is mine”. I guess that he won’t march against Castle Black and eventually he will find out that Sansa is in Bear Island.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
I guess that we will finally see what most of us think is true. R+L=J.
1) Jon was resurrected by the Lord of Light. I don’t think it was meant to be a mystery whatsoever. Not everything is not what it seems. I hope it doesn’t change him much. I do think he will be slightly less nice. LOL. I don’t know. its hard to say. I feel like he may be more revengeful.
2) I believe that based on what Ramsay said in last episode, he will have the support of some of the major houses in the north, including the dumb Umbers, who MAY have Rickon if he did go there when Bran told him to. I am really worried about this. I do NOT want to see a child tortured, especially not a Stark 🙁 I am NOTTTTTT happy about this. But I hope Sansa hears of this and does something (???) I don’t know where she goes from here, but I guess it will be Castle Black. Thank fully she didn’t approach her father’s former allies because God knows where they stand. I really hope to see a Sansa Jon reunion (closest starks and most highly possible reunion). I think its time the North Remembers. And Sansa did say in the trailer that she wants revenge.
I don’t know what TOJ is.
Oh and May the Forth be with you!
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
I’m not so sure there will be a major cost as far as another characters life to save Jon’s. After reading the translated version of Mel’s prayer, it seems like pure hoping and wishing and praying, really. We did see Beric come back and all he appeared to lose was “part of himself”. He wasn’t the same man after the resurrections. So, if i’m to truly guess what he’s lost, it might be his innocence or what was left of it. I’m expecting a different Jon Snow, certainly.
EDIT: I don’t believe Ramsay knows that Rickon/Bran are alive, but if he’s now hanging with the Karstarks, he could learn this very quickly.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
This is one is certainly the most difficult to predict. Still so many players in the area that we know of and many we haven’t even seen yet. The hope is obviously for a Sansa/Jon reunion at Winterfell at some point. Clearly Ramsay and at least a couple of the bigger northern houses are going to have to be dealt with. If i’m not mistaken, isn’t Rickon supposedly at the Last Hearth? Perhaps Ramsay will attempt to get his hands on Rickon. I don’t see Ramsay holding Winterfell much longer now that Jon Snow is back with a horde of wildlings at his back.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Of course there’s the major well-known theories here, but I imagine that the showrunners/GRRM aren’t going to make it quite so simple that we see the fight and see Ned walk right in and talk to Lyanna. I’m guessing they only show us bits and pieces, maybe some now, some later. Then again, they may be getting this out of the way so Bran’s true mission can begin in earnest.
All very exciting no matter what! Loved the first 2 episodes and can’t wait for more.
Thanks WotW for your work!
1.
How Jon was resurected will not be explained. My bet is on gods of CotF i.e. nature gods (hence the Ghost behaviour).
The cost will be inhumanity. He will not be dead but he will not be alive either. He will become… a single-minded being, concerned only with defeating WW. He will not be good nor bad but will not be interested in revenge, regaining family castle etc. and because of that will be capable to make shocking decisions like giving command to Thorne or allying with Freys if this becomes necessary to beat WW.
2.
Freys will act against Ramsey as their rights to Winterfell are basicly gone with Walda’s death. They will ally with Lannisters who will step up to regain their dominance over the north. Ramsey actions will turn everybody against him which may lead to very unexpected alliances like Freys with Tullys and Starks. This will lead to battle in the snow. I don’t have idea why Jon Snow and wildlings will get engaged in this… Maybe eliminating Ramsey will be necessary to fight WW.
3.
ToJ will be shown entirely in ep. 3 but without context which will be presented in ep 5 or 6, through another flashback or story told by Meera.
Where else would she possibly go, and why, at this point? People were claiming that they were going to decide Castle Black was too obvious because Ramsay would guess it, but from 602 we know that’s not the case. The Umbers are clearly betraying the Starks, so she’s not going to Last Hearth; same with Karhold.
It seems like the only reason people think she won’t go to Castle Black is the assumption that the show is going to delay her meeting Jon until the end of the season.
And yet you frequent a website that deals in heavy spoilers and speculation based on trailers / filming spoilers / previews?
At this point, might as well go ahead and watch the trailers. It’s not like the trailers shows snippets of *all* the storylines anyway.
Glamorous,
2. They will engage in this because Ramsey will tell them that he has Rickon and Winterfell. That will unite Jon & Sansa in a war to save Rickon.
“what will be the cost of jon’s resurrection?”- this brings something in my mind. at the start of the second trailer we hear tormund say, “i thought he was the man to lead us through the long night. but i was wrong.” he was saying this over the shots of jon’s dead body. now we know that jon has been resurrected. and we still haven’t heard this dialogue from tormund. isn’t it a little weird? this dialogue was supposed to be towards a dead man. so now that jon is resurrected, what makes tormund say that line when he is around? has something happened to jon? isn’t he the man that he was before? i wonder if this is the cost.
Mihnea,
Arny,
Tormund isn’t talking about Jon there, he’s referring to Mance Rayder. The full line is going to be something like “I thought [Mance] was the one to lead us through the Long Night, but I was wrong: it’s you, Jon.”
1. The boy has been killed – now the man is born
The only thing I worry is that all that goodness and emotion that Jon has is not gone away – I do not nee any reason why it should – but a BOY he will no longer be. I think he’ll wake up all growed up.
I do believe the fact that we focused on that damn necklace for 2 episodes – that did not glow once during the ritual and the fact that Mels faith was truly depleted at that time…a simple “please” might have been enough for good ‘ol R’hllor to step to the plate. There was this whole “Jesus” like feel to the whole thing and resurrection by the sheer power of R’hllor as a humble servant begged would be sufficient. this was not just “magic” We are talking about a potential savior here people!
2. I think there are a lot of good outline out there
Would it not be a riot if that baby did survive while the dogs ate mama….would Ramsey have the patience to watch the whole feast or be cocky enough to think the job was done…But where is Littlefinger??? He has to step into this party in the next eppie somehow.
3. I dont think we’ll get it all this Sunday…that would be too easy…however….there has to be a little more to all this that we have not figured out – just no clue what?!
I do think that R+L did not have to have a legit son (maybe they did get hitched in secret – who knows) but JS is not for the throne – his purpose is higher than that so I think that is not necessary….
I do wonder…..our buddy HodorWilysWalder…. you think he was there? Or he was there when they took L??? 2 point were clearly made again – I bet ya he was in love with L – for sure – and he “does not fight” – despite his potential…hmmm
They waved those points way too obvious for me. Takes a BIG TRAUMA to leave you saying Hodor for the rest of your day…the kind of stuff you cannot talk about ever….is it guilt – was it trauma – and whatever it was it had loud noises associated with it ( i was thinking storm for a while but I think maybe the rockus of “soldiers storming in”….this is keeping me up at night for some reason
Now here is my other question…where the hell is Samwell Tarly??? Aint it time for us to catch up with him?? I have a need to know where his story is going to fit in the big picture….
Josh L.,
I like your thought for Q#1. I want to believe it was a lack of her usual arrogance and her humility that proved to the LoL that she was indeed worthy of his “gift”.
Promo pictures for “Oathbreaker” today right?
Or is it tomorrow? I always forget
What if Ned never kept his promise to Lyanna? That Lyanna made him promise something other than what we’ve thought all these years, and Ned actually did not keep it, for whatever reason? Looking forward to getting a definitive answer, finally, regarding this mystery.
ghost of winterfell,
But from the interview of Owen it seems like they will come to terms
AzorAhigH,
You may be on to something… IIRC there were outdoor scenes (this week?) and then more indoor scenes filmed in NI (later?).
1 – Payer. Jon will be very hungry and make himself a sandwich i’d imagine.
2 – Recruiting, pink letters and more sandwich making.
3 – Blood will be spilt, babies born and a nice picnic had in the country – sandwiches with Dornish fillings and a nice drop of red.
Joffrey’s Cunt,
Its on Thursdays .
Flora Linden,
Ned did thought about how he failed to keep the promises of lyanna
Josh L.,
The funny thing is for all the talk about not wanting to be spoiled he already knows about What is TOJ and I fully expect him to complain about how Arthur dayne meets his death and how predictable it was.
I prefer fans like Dennessfan who didn’t get spoiled and does not know about things like TOJ so that they can be surprised
Sean C.,
yeah that can be the case. i really hope that is the case. i want to see jon as he was before! in the trailer it was shown like that was being said about jon. that can be very much intentional.
This is way off-topic, but is anyone having problems with Gravatar? I’m trying to upload a new picture for my profile, but it’s not working, and the support department is closed, for some reason. Has Gravatar gone out of business or something?
In the books,
On the show, Ramsay has noted that Castle Black is undefended on the South side. If Jon and the Wildlings march out to meet Ramsay (which would make tactical sense, given that Castle Black is a bad position to defend), then Ramsay is going to have to resort to other tactics to try to get Sansa and Theon back. A commando team (i.e., the “20 Good Men”) could be used here.
Keep in mind that we probably need a mechanism for something else: the Walkers getting through the Wall. OK, they might whip out some secret magic: but why haven’t they already done it? It would be much more GRRM like if human machinations gave the Walkers their literal and figurative opening.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think that this was it. The ritual was all about beseeching R’hllor to return a dead person. The Valyrian translation we got yesterday basically was a paraphrasing of what we heard Thoros say. But Thoros did it without the ritual. Perhaps R’hllor is like the Great Pumpkin: it is all about the sincerity!
That would be a plot point, not a story point. The whole point should be to create another parallelism between the main characters: and dying is to Jon what blindness, enslavement, Widow’s prison, rape, etc., are to the other main characters. It’s not just Jon: all of the main characters should evolve considerably in response to the major traumas they have just endured or are still enduring.
(For myself, I don’t think that Jon will really leave the Night’s Watch: and “I died and came back” obviously will not fly as an excuse to any that deem him a deserter.)
At this point, the books and/or the show should have offered us some alternative. Moreover, we do need to remember that this is a story: whatever it is has to affect the character evolution of one of the primary protagonists. If it is not Jon, then it has to be someone else: but who else could it be?
My bet is that it will be about Ned keeping his promise: and all the promises that Ned had to break to keep it. Come crunch time, Jon is going to get the choice of keeping one set of promises and breaking another, or vice-versa. If Jon owes his life to Ned’s choice back then (and knows it), then this would have a huge effect on what Jon does. Davos’ line about how sometimes one boy is more important than everything else might wind up with some parallel then.
dragonbringer,
What interview? I must have missed it. Do you have a link?
Not quite: Ned thought about the costs of those promises. Whether the cost was living with knowing he broke them or living with knowing that he broke other promises to keep that one is not made clear.
However, this is GRRM: and he will never meet a promise that does not directly contradict another one! 😀
1.) How was Jon resurrected? I think the less people read into the method of Jon’s resurrection, the better. In this case, I’m thinking it’s the ‘what’ that matters far more than the ‘how.’ But to answer the question, I think Mel’s spell worked. She made a plea to the Lord of Light, and he answered. There was no warging or any Ghost related whizbangery. What will be the cost? This is the real question! How will betrayal and death change Jon? The only thing I can guess with relative certainty is that his death will absolve him, in his own mind at least, of his obligation to the Night’s Watch, and allow him to pursue other ways forward.
2.) What happens in the North? We already know a few things, one of which is that House Karstark is firmly in the Bolton camp. It seems almost certain to me that House Umber will be joining the fold in the next episode, sealing their allegiance to Ramsay with the gift of Rickon Stark. Sansa, Brienne, and Podrick will arrive at Castle Black by episode’s end, as will a provocation from Ramsay in the form of a letter. The letter will declare that he is coming north to get his Sansa back, and will affirm his possession of Rickon. Sansa will be able to confirm that Rickon is indeed alive. A plan should begin to form between Jon, Sansa, and their attendants: raise the loyal houses of the North to overthrow the Bolton hold on Winterfell. It may or may not happen in the next episode, but before too long, Sansa will send Brienne south with the task of finding Arya.
3.) What will happen in the Tower of Joy? Three words: “Promise me, Ned.”
I think we will see exactly what we all believe we are going to see. Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. The bigger question that arises from that is, what does it all mean? For Jon, and for Bran (who will be the only one to see it), and for the narrative as a whole. Will Jon ever find out who his true parents are? There has to be a good reason why Bloodraven is showing this to Bran.
TOWER OF JOY GETHYPE!!!
As much as I would like to believe R+L=J and M…. Wasn’t Meera a year older than Jon????
LatrineDiggerBrian,
because the trailer show it
With D&D knowing the end game is in sight. I think we are and should be starting to see clues as to what the end game will be. Jon of course is not going to be resurrected for no reason at all. So what will his story be going ahead. The theme being pushed in this entire series is Life pays for Death and vice versa. My theory
whatever the ending will be the clues should start revealing themselves. If the show holds to it’s ongoing theme.
I am very curious as to what promise did Lyanna ask of Ned. Maybe it is more than one promise? Because he seems to think both ways, in one of his chapters, he thinks about the price he paid to keep his promises and later when he is arrested, he starts thinking of broken promises.
ghost of winterfell,
Its linked in the post about iron born and translation of Mel prayer in one of the comments ..
And it should be in one of the early comments ..so it will be easy to find .
Wimsey,
I agree with you.
But its interesting that he thinks about that when he failed to stop the murder of dany and when in prison ..
I fully expect the promise to be that reveal his parentage toto atleast jon and rise him as targ at the same time as a stark and as one of his own son .
I want to see Jon changed somehow. He doesn’t need to be cruel or emotionless but being more focused on his mission and less compromising trying to appease every side. He experienced the threat of the white walkers first hand. So he sets out to do whatever needs to be done even if he has to make some morally questionable decisions along the way.
After all he has been brought back to life for a reason!
Who is Oathbreaker going to be?
Dee,
Well couple of possibilities.
Umber.
Jon
Thorne…
And frankly a lot of people in the other parts of the world…..
dragonbringer,
Okay got it, thanks.
Dee,
Multiple people, probably? The people who have taken oaths so far are Jon, Brienne and Jaime.
Dee,
Jaime. Arthur Dayne calls him one in the books for killing the mad king.
But knowing the series it probably refers to various plot lines. John Snow, Brienne, The Umbers…..
Redxgod,
Isn’t Hightower the one who says that?
Mihnea,
True.
Redxgod,
Havent read the books so not sure what you are talking about.
But you are both right I am sure it will refer to more than one person.
Are we so sure that Jon will be relieved of his NW vows? they didn’t say the words when he died.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/03/game-thrones-kit-harington-jon-snow?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link
haha Liam!!!!!!!!
Dee,
I don’t think he would’ve been anyway.
Does Jon really look like the kind of guy to break his vow because ”well technically I was dead”? I don’t think so.
Mihnea,
I agree. I have just read that a lot that why
But I mean.. so hes going to go back and be LC.
Dee,
That’s my guess. I don’t think he will ”resign” from being LC.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Melisandre resurrected him, maybe his connection with Ghost helped. He will be fairly different from his pre-death self, hopefully more dark and cruel character, just like the old Kings of Winter.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Ramsay gets the Karstarks and the Umbers to swear allegiance to him, but the other houses will decline. Smalljon probably gives him Rickon, like the promo for 6×03 suggests. Then at the end of the season, we will have Snowbowl.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Ned & his companions fight the Kingsguard and win. Lyanna gives birth to a baby, whom Ned names Jon Snow.
And just exactly how was this “clearly” indicated??
Jerkface,
With the subtle difference that the tv show presents events in a very different way. I’m pretty sure that NO ONE who has read the books would ever think that Jon coming back is the cliche argument described. It has a lot of building, I mean, why would we start the book remembering everyone that when a Warg dies his mind goes to his or her beast? And all the backup from previous books too… The eagle attacking Jon, the stories about Robb becoming his wolf in the red Wedding… everything is built to tell you yes, he dies, but he’s in Ghost, so let’s wait for him to be released of his vows and then we can have his body fixed for he to come back and as a whole, because that’s why we put his mind on the wolf, so he could come back as a whole and save his family. It was never a secret, never a miracle, never the Jesus Christ thing. Not for us readers at least.
The show otherwise, as most people see it (The show with dragons and lots of deaths and the witty dwarf), shows us the death of Jon as a shocking event and tells us that we should fear our favourite bastard could be gone for good, and then bam, red witch magic. Yeah, go red witch magic. And let’s fill it with Jesus parallels, so anyone can understand that he’s this series true hero and the one who will go against the white walkers.
He will be the book’s hero as well, but I’m looking forward to this “bittersweet” ending that Martin intends to write, if he ever does.
Rory,
why in the world would jon all of a sudden be able to warg?
McTheta,
I don’t believe Ramsay knows that Rickon/Bran are alive
He knows that Theon didn’t kill them. Ramsay planted the idea of using decoys.
Maybe Jon just will leave Edd as his replacement while he and Sansa are rallying people in the north and convincing them to ally with the wildlings.
Sean C.,
Some people claimed they’ll be reunited later on. It’s too damn obvious but where else? It’s just I think she might end up in some Northern stronghold loyal to Starks and let Brienne to find Arya in Riverlands where they still have family. Castle Black makes now most sense but what she has her own arc independent on Jon.
1. Dragon magic forced Jon awake. After Tyrion tamed Viserion and unchained Rhaegal, the latters life-force called out to Jon through Melisandre. Okay maybe I don’t actually think this, but it would be interesting. The cost will be the same as Beric, a piece of himself, though since dead for longer, a larger piece.
2. The gift will be Fickon. The Umbers will use this as a way to weasel their way into the good graces of Ramsay to eventually undermine him (sort of Manderly in books). They hope it as a way to free the GreatJon ala Wyman with Wylis as well (this will not be revealed until the last minute as well). Mel will see a grey woman riding a dying horse coming up the Kingsroad, only it is not Sansa, but Osha to warn Jon that the Rickon that Ramsay will inform him is at Winterfell is not the true Rickon. During the Battle of the Bastards, Jon will command the Wildlings with the Mormonts and the Glovers by his side. All but the Karstarks will turn their cloaks during the battle to finally wipe out Ramsay and the Bolton army.
3. The TOJ will be split into three parts. The battle first, next episode. The talk with Lyanna after that where she says Promise me Ned, but the Three-Eyed Crow will pull him away before seeing the baby. The third time, Bran will visit on his own, and see Lyanna give the baby to Ned and finally gasp her last breath.
Mihnea,
I think he won’t at the beginning but after he listens to Sansa and receives the Pink Letter, he will change his mind. He needs to reunite the North to fight against the Others. He won’t be able to do that if Ramsay is Warden of the North. It isn’t a technicality either. He died betrayed by Night’s Watch men…. Plus we know he’ll use Stark armour in the Battle of the Bastards, so…
What in the show’s history suggests they’re interested in putting Sansa by herself with some minor guest characters we haven’t heard anything about the casting of for most of the season? That sort of story would feature her interacting with fewer significant characters than her AFFC plot, which the show jettisoned in favour of giving her Jeyne Poole’s role.
Why would the Three-Eyed Raven pull Bran away? For what purpose was he showing him all this, then?
I’m not saying he pulls him away to shield him from it, perhaps letting his curiosity boil is part of his teaching technique. Perhaps its just a time thing. Perhaps it is just a way for D&D to make people wonder for a couple episodes. Why did he pull him from the one this last episode? Could be same reason.
1. The lord of light works in mysterious ways. He was likely resurrected because of Shireen’s sacrifice (cos only death can pay for life). Jon might come back as a more brutal and heartless person (Lord Commander Stone-Heart). He will chop off Alliser and Olly’s heads and mount them on spikes.
2. What happens in the North stays in the North. Think the battle for the north will be resolved by the northeners themselves. Ramsay will attack Castle Black to get Sansa back. The wildlings and other brothers will be caught in the melee, and this will cause them to rally together against the Boltons. Jon will lead the army and win the North in Sansa’s name.
3. The Tower of Joy will be the most epicest fabulousest raddest scene in the history of GOT. Jon Snow will be revealed as Jon Targareyn-Stark.
Borat Lannister,
The interview with Alister Thorne’s actor hints at maybe some kind of cooperation between them.
Rory,
Because he isn’t a warg. He never dd it, there is absolutly no indication that he can do it.
None at all.
Ignacio,
Can I get your copy of WOW?
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Just like Beric Dondarrion. And I fear Jon will be another walking dead… If I remember correctly, Beric’s new life wasn’t exactly life: he didn’t eat, he didn’t sleep and each resurrection cost him a piece of his memory… At least in the books. Maybe in the series he’ll just be a little confused but fine. 😀
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
What happens in the North, stays in the North… 😀
Well, I think Ramsay took a “sand snake” decision. I mean, a very stupid decision. The Boltons have a few allies, right? The Karstarks and… Who else? If Old Frey discovers Ramsay killed Fat Walda (and we know he’s not an idiot, I doubt he’ll buy the “poison” story), then Ramsay will lose the Freys. I don’t think the Freys will ever ally with the other houses of the North, of course, since the Freys killed their king, so it’s not possible. But we know Old Frey is a little bit vindictive… 😀 So, Ramsay, watch out!
I also think Littlefinger won’t let Ramsay drags him down with him… So I think Ramsay will be spanked soon by Jon and most of the North.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
A dying Lyanna will give her newborn Jon to Ned and she’ll make him promise to never reveal Jon is her son, but pretend he’s Ned’s bastard son instead… ’cause the baby would probably be killed if they know he’s the son of… Rhaegar Targaryen! :O
Rory,
Re warging.
Small sample size but Bran does not warg before his fall (I think). Any chance Jon’s close encounter wakes this power? I am genuinely curious not arguing for arguing sake. I don’t remember which D said it after the ep but he mentioned that Ghost and Jon had this special bond. IDK
Because there wasn’t actually any important information in that scene.
Except for all those times Thoros revived Dondarrion without sacrificing anybody.
Tycho Nestoris,
A special bond, that all wolfs have/had with their owners.
It doesn’t mean warging.
I think it’s time we put this to rest. There is simply no evidence.
Marlana,
huh?
This site is actually pretty good about spoilers, not just the article writers, but the posters too. I pretty much know people are going to be mentioning the previews in comments so not a big deal. I like to stay in the dark as much as possible though, haven’t even watched the preseason trailers.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
There should be a cost and this is one of the things I am wondering about it. I am doubting the Lord of Light is real at all and if it isn’t just the Old Gods with some mix of her powers that awoke at some point, but there should be a price on both Jon and Mel and if there isn’t then it is going to suck because that’s not how that show/book/story has ever worked.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Roose was the brains, but Ramsey is still strong, so I guess it will be all out fighting and madness until he gets struck down. I am wondering about that Umber gift, hopefully it is not Rickon, but I can’t imagine who else. It totally suck that after all this time he was just caught by the Umbers and delivered to Ramsey. It says to me they really didn’t think at all about his arc to care.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
We’ll see one of the best passages from the book splay out. I doubt it will be as good or have as much impact as it did for book readers. I hope it is good though and we get to see R+L=J play out. O am almost sure they are doing it here to connect everything Jon, BRan, Bloodraven, his parents their destiny etc. Frodo and Aragorn style-d
Jon himself is unaware of this ability to warg, (as are some other stark children), but I suspect/hope show watchers will discover, along with Jon and Arya, that they, indeed, can do this: Arya, while she’s blind and Jon at the instant of death.
Sean C.,
Its just to show the viewers what Bran will be doing through a simple light vision.
Showing us he will be looking at some historic events… introducing and reminding everyone of Lyanna…. Showing young Ned… showing us Hodor before he became Hodor
And then to explain to us that Bran should not be in the visions for a long time.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
He was resurrected by Mel. The slight delay was added for dramatic reasons.
Jon will be dazed and confused, sore from lying on that table, and cranky that Mel cut his hair. We’re not going to get Ser Stoneheart.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Where to begin … Jon hangs around Castle Black dealing with Thorne and co., the Umbers hand over Rickon and join the Karstarks in supporting Ramsay, Sansa makes it to CB with Brienne and Pod, Ramsay sends a version of the letter asking for Sansa back and uses Rickon as leverage, Sansa sends Brienne and Pod off to the Riverlands to find Arya, Jon makes Davos pair up with Sansa to the support of minor northern houses, before she goes Brienne makes Davos swear an oath to Sansa, Jon decides to leave the NW and take the wildlings south to fight Bolton, Ramsay does some pre-battle flaying …. big battle for the north which Ramsay ultimately loses. Littlefinger figures in all this but I have no idea how or when.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
It will be split over two episodes: the fight outside first, then inside the tower revealing R+L=J two or three episodes later. Bran will know, and the audience will know but Jon won’t.
rhymeswithweak,
the Meera theory is so farfetched, but I’m (not so) secretly hoping she’s part of the Tower of Joy twist. My face would just melt off.
Valyrian Lance,
He told him he cant stay there too long.
Couldn’t Bran’s vision include young Jamie killing the King? – Oathbreaker
Rory,
Yeah..No.
The time to explain Jon being a warg passed. He isn’t one. It doesn’t serve the story in anyway anymore.
The Lord of Light brought him back, that’s it.
Even Arya I doubt will be shown. She can meet Nymeria without warging just fine.
Love these question articles! Ok, so I have the 3 answers and more worries for the next episode:
How was Jon Resurrected? What will be the cost?
1. I feel like Jon was resurrected in the same way Beric was. If there is any cost, I feel like it might be confusion as to why Jon was resurrected, the fact that he was resurrected by Jon and everyone else (and that the magic exists,) and I also feel like there may be some difficulty with who he is and the release from his vows.
What happens in the North, now that Roose is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
2. Several things may go down here. As it pertains to Castle Black, I feel like some variant of the Pink Letter will be done. Jon and Co. will receive the letter, remaining Night’s Watch without too much loyalty to Jon might make him leave to protect the castle, and
will make a bee-line to Winterfell after gathering an army of support.
As for the Boltons, I feel like without Roose’s careful tactics, House Bolton might make some rash decisions.
What will happen during the Tower of Joy?
3. I feel like they will create a scene very similar to the book, but also one that translates well to the screen and respective audiences. We will likely see
But seriously, y’all.
Mihnea,
Only prediction based on what we read in ADwD and previous books, I wish I could have my copy too…
WillieBeans,
There was that shot in the trailer…..
Perhaps it was Jaime killing Aerys, perhaps it wasn’t as flashback at all and someone was killing Tommen.
Ignacio,
And in ADWD it clearly states Jon is a weak warg.
Let’s not discuss this though. It’s completely pointless at this moment.
I already got the resurrection just how I always wanted it.
I’m still holding hope that it wasn’t Mel’s spell that brought Jon back. I remember last year right after it happened, I was like nope, she’s not going to bring him back ala Thoros, this show + the books are too clever for that. And all I was thinking of during the offseason was every way it couldn’t be that. My prediction was the Night King was going to come to Castle Black and make Jon rise, and then we’d see the story from the White Walker’s perspective. So yeah, that’s why I was just bleh after “Home”. That coupled with odd Davos about face, and lackluster Roose death.
The first two episodes in many ways felt like the middle episodes of previous seasons. Just biding time until an explosion of stuff happens. I’m hoping, like many of the cast members have mentioned, that the final 8 episodes are a really fast sprint to the finish line, with fireworks going off everywhere. Or at least a lot of juicy stuff happening (doesn’t necessarily have to be someone dying or a big battle). We shall see.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
It really can’t be anything else then Mel/R’hllor.
Until I get WoW, I blame D&D for the death of our beautiful Shireen 🙁 I cannot see how Stannis nor George would do that. Unless… bringing back Jon wouldn’t have been/won’t be possible without that sacrifice. It’s the only way my mind can get around it (for now).
The debt has already been paid. Imo. The fire has already been fueled. And that is why Mel has more power right now than she gave herself credit for.
How that matches up to the Thoros stuff idk. My brain is a book one so it hard to filter that down into show stuff.
Maybe, The Lord of Light just needs an awesome invincible warrior dude to fight off the Ice. With Mel by his side, ready to bring him back when need be.
I have an awesome scene in my mind where Mel is bringing Jon back again again, again, on the final battlefield, and then she gets done, and we lose both characters in one blow. BOOM!! Her body laying draped over his.
😀
Assuming she can be killed ofc
Mihnea,
I don’t know. It looks like someone wearing a helmet. Or maybe that’s a crown and a beard 😀
He was “fine” but it was explicitly stated that he came back “less and less.” While I don’t think there will be a “cost” to Jon’s resurrection, he will come back less than himself somehow, and this will be important to the plot. Sansa is coming to Castle Black – will he remember her, for instance?
I haven’t watched the trailer, but when I saw the episode title, this is what I thought of. It makes sense because “Oathkeeper” the episode in season 4 was about Jaime keeping his oath to Kat through Brienne. It makes sense that “Oathbreaker” would be regarding Jaime as well.
The Meera theory seems way too much like Star Wars.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Could be.
I agree the timing is really good.
Question 2… War
Question 3… Dunno
Wimsey,
The handsome young man?
kit_hepburn,
Beric started to really lose himself after 7 resurrections.
I doubt 1 will affect Jon to the same degree.
As to the Night’s King resurrecting Jon, I think that if that were to happen, he would have to somehow do it well away from the Wall (and find a way to do his sort of magic within the Wall), considering there’s magic protecting the living from Night’s King and Co. I also can’t imagine the Night’s Watch and Wildlings being okay with Mr. Eldritch Abomination and his undead army coming in to make Jon rise. Granted, everyone would probably piss themselves into a corner, but after Hardhome, I can’t see it happening.
Because in the show, we’ve seen absolutely zero indication that Jon Snow can warg. We didn’t see anything from Ghost’s POV (which is what the show does to indicate that somebody is warging). Occam’s Razor says that if no warging is showed, then no warging happened.
Now, Jon Snow might or might not warg into Ghost in the books. There’s enough evidence there to suggest that it could happen (Jon has wolf-dreams, Mel sees a vision where Jon changes into a wolf, then back into Jon, Jon’s final word was “Ghost”). And the show might have left a nod to the book version as an Easter Egg of sorts. We won’t know until “The Winds of Winter” comes out in 2018 (or later).
But on the show, it’s fairly obvious that no warging happened.
Mihnea,
The time to explain Jon being a warg passed.
Jon only just came back. He was *dead* for a relatively short amount of time compared to Bran. That’s not evidence it just has me curious.
I think most agree with the Mel rez… I would still like to see the reaction and questions Jon gets (and has himself) in the next ep about coming back (if it’s even discussed at all, as you alluded to in a previous thread).
I had a strange thought, which May very well never happen.
SPOILER
If Rickon is indeed the gift, it is maybe possible that Shaggydog is still allive… Could Shaggydog become Sansa her direwolf, if Rickon won’t survive? That could be very important for Sansa her position as Stark I would say… Please share your thoughts…
That’s like when you’re playing an RPG. Fight the final boss, your medic dies, and you have no resurrection/health potions.
Tycho Nestoris,
No doubt there will be questions. No doubt Jon will ask himself how/why he come back.
I just disagree that warging will be one of these questions.
Mihnea,
Not to the same degree, but a) he was dead for longer, and b) writers have control over which statements they include in the final product of what they are writing. And they chose to include that. Add to it that in the books there is even MORE evidence that coming back from the dead wreaks havoc on the individual, and I think there is going to be something with Jon. I don’t know what, but there’s going to be something that’s important to the plot (and I don’t think it’s just that he’s absolved of his NW oath – too easy).
alienarea,
Jon *is* of the North. He is also of the dragon; and what is a dragon, but fire made flesh? We don’t know there’s not a Rhllor- dragon connection, but it’s not a huge leap to see why there could be.
PS If Arthur Dayne is Jon Snow’s real father I will cosplay as old naked Melisandre at SDCC2017.
Jon will put down the Black and wear Stark clothes, since his Watch is Ended. Ed will be elected LC with Jon’s blessing (this is why Ed has had more dialogue in the last two episodes than in the previous five seasons combined.)
kit_hepburn,
Will have to see. My speculations here are based on a big dose of hope.
I just don’t think he will be that different.
Will he try to ”kill the boy”? Sure but I don’t think he will lose parts of himself.
Well, well said – you have captured my thoughts (and the truth, dare I say it) perfectly.
Hawk,
I haven’t read the books so that’s one detail I didn’t know (about the Wall having magic in it to counteract the Night King). They haven’t mentioned it on the show so they could’ve made it happen. But I think with regards to Jon they are still following the books so I’m guessing George couldn’t have done it.
Rising from the dead as a Wight would’ve been more acceptable to me than Mel bringing back Jon. I think you go on a slippery slope when you start bringing characters back from the dead like that. I’m guessing Mel will be dead soon because you can’t have her sticking around because then she could resurrect anyone.
George,
Could be.
Or he could just get better armor for a fight. I’m not that sure, that just because he changed his armor he is no longer LC. He could do both.
Em, this is probably why George wrote the “And now his Watch is ended” bit into the vows. And, well, the episode name is “Oathbreaker”, after all.
George,
And no one said those words.
And I simply refuse too accept that a guy like Jon would break his vows over a technicality like this.
I think he can easly do both.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I don’t think it’s likely she will die.
She said she ”saw herself walking the walls of WF” I think she was just mistaken about who will take WF.
She said she will meet Arya again and so on.. I think, this season at least, she is safe.
I’m not saying that Jon won’t perhaps be reluctant; heck, he might even say “I’m no oathbreaker”, but I expect a bit of an argument from Davos and the arrival of Ramsey’s “Pink Letter” will perhaps change his mind.
Josh, I also frequent this site but I don’t do previews, so yah…it’s a thing.
George,
And I think he could do all these things and still be the LC.
Would he leave Edd in charge until he is done? Sure. But I believe he will still be the LC.
If Davos dies i’m gonna cry 🙁 We can expect casualties at the battle for winterfell.
Hawk,
Lol nice. She too busy scrolling through her menu to see what’s coming. 😀
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Why would you want the Night King to rise Jon? Why would you want him to be on the bad side? lol
This is the second time Bran has been warned about using his powers for too long. He was warned about warging for too long by Jojen and Meera back in Season 4. I wonder if this portends to anything that will happen in the future. Remember that Catelyn told him not to climb anymore, and you see how that went.
Jon
AND Lord Small Jon Umber, betraying the Starks and handing Rickon to Ramsey.
Maybe there is a flashback to Jamie and the Mad King
I think the whole point of Jon dying is to release him from Oath to the Nights Watch. He is now free to go about saving everyone else.
Dee,
Why is he bad? Do we know their motivations?
Mihnea,
I think his death released him from his oath to the watch.
The show and the book did this differently.
In the book, Ramsay (as “Reek”) is the one who suggests Theon use the farmer boys as decoys when Theon loses Bran and Rickon.
On the show, Ramsay did not appear in Season 2. However, when Ramsay fakes Theon’s release from his torture, then “rescues” him, a grateful Theon confesses to Ramsay that he never killed Bran & Rickon and that it was a couple of farmer boys instead. Immediately after this, Ramsay leads Theon back to the torture room.
In both mediums, Ramsay knows that Rickon and Bran are still out there somewhere. (On the show, Ramsay / Roose sends Locke up North to track down Bran & Rickon. Locke is then killed by Bran-warging-into-Hodor in Craster’s Keep.)
I kind of liked the idea of her being an older woman after resurrecting Jon. The idea of her coming to terms with her age and being a badass granny seemed cool. I feel like the show will address it later, but in one of the released photos (I think the time stamp was for episode 3-5) we see her as Young Mel instead of Badass Granny Mel.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Oh my god, you are such a broken record.
Enough already. It’s silly that you expect it to be some outlandish thing. THAT would be crazy, because there is ZERO precedent for that in the books OR the show.
The only reason the anticipation is so great is because GRRM has been making people wait for years and years, so people are bending over backwards to create some insane way for him to thread the needle. It could simply be that this is the way he’s coming back – Mel and the Lord of Light.
It’s especially ironic because you say you haven’t read the books but you somehow expect the books and the show to be more clever? Lol if you haven’t read the books, stop expecting absurd theories like the Night’s King resurrects Jon LOL WTF.
Ser Lurk of House Turnip,
I think that shes going to be sacrificed in the WOW to bring Jon back. Since she is there with her mother and the red woman, same place as jon… and Stannis and Davos are not there. so Shireen will not be sacrificed for stannis in the books, but for jon, by Mel’s choice.
I MUCH prefer the way the show went with it.
Isabelle,
Yes! I’ve been wondering lately whether Jon, who seems destined to rule, would actually reject that role. As you say, he has no interest in sitting on the Iron Throne. Dany does but he doesn’t. All he’s ever wanted is to be a Stark, and he is a Stark just not in the way he thinks. I’m reminded of what Cersei said to Ned: “You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King’s Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake.” I could see Jon doing the same. In doing so he’d be embracing the only father he’s ever known and choosing his own fate.
Mihnea,
There could be a spoiler about her real life that could give it away. But it also could be meaningless.
But you’re right about Arya, forgot about that.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
The same way Beric Dondarrion was. I bet he’ll be missing some memories – most poignant would be those of Ygritte. Maybe he’ll be single-mindedly focused on Winterfell and not really able to think beyond that. I don’t think he’ll survive long-term past the battle against the Others; unless it’s as the new Last Greenseer or Night’s King, sacrificed to save humanity.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Sansa rallies the northern houses – I’m not sure if she’ll meet Jon before this or not. If Ramsay really heads for Castle Black she may have to go the other way to avoid being recaptured. Once word gets around of what he did to her, I don’t see any of them staying loyal. I think the Manderleys and Umbers will turn against him. I really, really hope Rickon isn’t killed (maybe the “we have a gift” is him being handed over to Sansa?), but for a family as tragedy-ridden as the Starks, they’ve only lost one of their five children so far, so a character with really no skin in the game might be the one to go (oh, god, I really and truly didn’t intentionally put that pun in there but now that it’s there I have to leave it! please don’t hate me).
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Before “Home,” I would have said it wouldn’t all be in one episode, but I also never would have believed we’d have Tyrion meeting dragons, Roose & Walda being murdered, Wildlings taking Castle Black, and Jon Snow’s resurrection all in one episode. I think this season is the beginning of the end game, and getting Jon’s lineage in order is a key piece of that, so yeah, we could see the whooooole shebang in a few days.
Josh L.,
dammit
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Jon was resurrected through Melisandres ritual with the help from R’hllor.
He could be changed in someway, but I dont think we will have huge change in character like LS ( not in the TV-show at least). He will more feel like Beric, that something of himself is missing. I don’t think HBO wants to make him more “cold” or “evil” when he is such a fan favorite and considered a good guy and a hero. But it would be interesting if he got more “sinister” and hanged Olly and Thorne the first thing he did (LS style).
But if you take book in consideration, spoiler] your spoiler comments spoiler] Lady Stoneheart was dead in three days (if I remeber it correct) and she went totaly mad. But had that with the big, heart wrenching betrayal to do or the amount of days she remained dead? Where Jons betrayal by his night watch brother as heart wrenching? We don’t know how long in the books, but in the show Jon was dead in what? One day? Could that affect him? I think that in the books it’s a bigger chance that he becomes more changed and “cold”, but not on a Lady Stoneheart-level. spoiler
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Now when Jon don’t have the Night watch vows to care about (“It shall not end until my death”) he and Sansa will rally the northern lords that still are loyal to the Starks, and the wildlings, to fight against the Boltons. I also think that Littlefinger will aid with the army of the Vale in someway later in the season. I think in the books spoiler Sansa will play that role. If she gets married to Harry the heir and all those theories about that Robert Arryn is goning to die plays out, she will get influence over the Vale spoiler
And maybe, maybe we get a Pink letter that will get Jon a heads up.
I also think that Ramsay will get Rickon from the Umbers, and then spike him on a cross, for Jon and Sansa to see, and then maybe flay or burn him (or both). That will get Sansa the claim over Winterfell and the north, cause Jon is still a Bastard.
Even if R+L=J is confirmed and Jon get to know that he is a (possibly spoiler)spoiler Stark/Targaryen he will still be a bastard, with no real claim over either Winterfell or the throne (If he isn’t the only Stark/Targaryen alive?). It is possible that they had a rushed wedding at ToJ, but would that work? I mean Rhaegar was already married with Elia. spoiler,
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
They could go for R+L=J=Confirmed, wich they will reveal sooner or later (I mean all the build-up for it in season 5), but they can also go for the version that was in the first book and reveal it later.
I also think there’s a risk that they skip Dawn, and just make Arthur Dayne the dual wielding guy from the trailer. Because all the non-book readers have no idea about Dawn or how skilled Arthur Dayne is and the dual wielding would make him seem more skilled and a bigger threat.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Hmmmmmmm… I think Melisandre might die? But i dunno. Maybe Jon will just be a bit fucked up in the head. I’m a bit afraid there won’t be much of a cost TBH.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Jon and Sansa Power Duo. Sansa gets the Mormonts (and eventually maybe Manderleys and Umbers?) on her side and Jon has the wildlings and the 10 NW who are left. The armies unite and fuck Ramsey’s shit up. Brienne and Pod are in the midst of the battle and Stab a lot of people. I worry for Podrick’s life expectancy. 🙁 Finally, Jon cuts off Ramsey’s stupid head.
ETA: forgot to add, we have LF’s army coming up from the Vale under Cersei’s orders, in order to take Winterfell back from Ramsey! He’s the real wild card here. It’s gonna be epic.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
ALL WILL BE REVEALED! R+L=J BITCHEZ!
JonFookinSnow,
Based on what they have done in Hardhome, which is kill thousands of innocent people, to me, they are bad.
JonFookinSnow,
so far he’s just brought people back to life haha.
Dee,
It’d be interesting seeing the story from their perspective and how they formed etc. Otherwise the Wights are just like a natural disaster movie to me.
Maybe there were multiple promises?
The stuff in GOT says that Ned dreamt of “broken promises” (presumably made to Lyanna) and that he’s haunted by those dreams…well he kept his presumed promise to keep Jon safe and raise him as his own, no? So what exactly are the “broken promises”?
Damn, I sound like Preston Jacobs, dang it.
Dee,
I don’t like any version where Shireen burns. I love book Stannis and expected him to sacrifice himself in the hope of seating his daughter on The Throne. But yeah, show kinda exploded my hopes for that :/ I’d rather she be burnt to bring back Jon than to just melt some heavy(ish) snow lol. Idk!!! 😮
Dee,
Wouldn’t it be interesting if they are also only pawns in all this and have no other choice? Most people expect a epic big battle, but maybe there will be some kind of understanding between humans and the others.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Theres definitely a history there. And I am very curious to see it. But I am so glad Jon didn’t go to the dark side haha.
JonFookinSnow,
Maybe… its definitely interesting. But based on what I have seen…. they are bad and they are evil.
Nadia,
Calm down. Don’t be like the reverse of those book nuts i.e. a show nut that scoffs at anyone that has a different opinion.
The reason I said the books + the show is because I assumed Dave and Dan were still going off of the books for Jon’s story and how he was resurrected.
For someone who just watches the show, the Night King theory makes perfect sense. We saw at the end of Hardhome, the Night King makes the dead rise, and then he and Jon stare each other down as the boat drifts away. This is after he just saw Jon waste one of his top guys. Not inconceivable that I could think that the Night King might track Jon down, bring him back from the dead, and take him back with him because he thinks he’s Azor whatever or the chosen one.
And in my post I acknowledged that Mel bringing him back is the likely way, I just said I was holding out hope at the small chance it wasn’t because that’s not how I wanted it to go down.
Jerkface,
Don’t be a jerkface
Ser Lurk of House Turnip,
In a perfect world, yes, Shireen would not be burned at all.
BUT NO, wouldn’t be hard to read about the burning of a loved character to bring back a loved character.
I find that harder then what we got on the show — which was Stannis, who is cold by nature, burns his daughter and then dies as well. I would have HATED seeing Mel sacrifice Shireen for Jon.
Kind of off topic, but is there anyway to keep track of your posts and replies on this thing aside from doing it manually? The e-mail subscription doesn’t really work for me.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I think you have to use gravatar for that.
Dee,
Wow, that list could be long…
Umber’s
Manderly’s? (supposedly)
Jaime (broke his oath as a Kings Guard member)
Jon breaking is oath to the NW?
All-star broke his oath to the NW when he committed treason and killed Jon.
Probably so many more but I can’t think of them right now.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Mine don’t work 🙁
Elizabeth,
Yeah that’s true.
All-star? hahaha iphone I am assuming?
#1 How was Jon resurrected and the cost?
I think it’s going to be Melisandre’s “Please” that is going to be the clincher here. It seems sadness, loss of faith and desperation were all involved in Thoros’ first resurrection of Dondarrion so it seems likely to be the same here. Davos’ comment that all the Gods are the same could mean that “God”, whichever version, is responsible. This means that Jon will not have to abandon his Northman roots as I agree with the previous poster that Jon will not want to associate himself with anything other than his Northern, Stark lineage (whichever Stark he is descended from)
I don’t think it will necessarily cost that much, no “only death can pay for life” stuff but Im sure he will be very conflicted about his new status and how he will be revered. I also expect him to be a stronger leader, he will be more aware of the consequences of his actions and will respond to that accordingly. Owen Teale’s interview suggests that they will reach some sort of accord which supports this idea.
#2 North
I’m really torn on this one but my gut says Karstarks and Umbers will side with the Boltons, the Manderly’s will claim to support them but will betray them at the battle. I think the Mormonts and Cerwyns will side with Sansa, who will also have the support of Jon and the Wildlings. Ramsay, in his stupidity has not accounted for the largest, and untouched army that currently resides in The Vale. Sansa will also have their support and they will be the deciding factor in the battle. Perhaps Sansa even promises to marry LF (once Ramsey is dead) in order to ensure the Knights of the Vale involvement? She is getting wise and savvy about making such allegiances and there is something intriguing about the idea that she uses the wits taught to her by LF to use, outfox and possibly betray LF to get what she wants.
#3 ToJ
Why would the TER bring Bran to this vision, just to pull him out of it before he sees its conclusion? Because of this I do think (hope :D) we will see the whole scene. Bran, and by extension the audience, may not put 2 and 2 together right away though. This might come in a later vision where we see Lyanna’s ‘abduction’. I cant see why Ned would go on thinking well of Rhaegar after his death if he continued to believe he abducted his sister. The abduction must be a cover, whatever else that means…. 😀
Dee,
Nothing I read in the future will be as difficult as listening to those screams. I guess it’s more of a hope than an opinion/theory. I need to know she didn’t die for nothing D: but yeah, I can see your side too.
Was Stannis’ failure down to some funky Planetos karma? Or was it because of 20 good men lol. :/ I wish it had been made clearer tbh
Here’s hoping we get more context in the future. I want Davos and Mel to have a chat about what happened prior to Winterfell, but also I don’t lol, I like it when they are friends.
Just had a thought about some words Ramsay appears to say to his mystery ‘gift’. Why would he refer to his ‘gift’ as little man? Obviously, it must be Rickon. Isn’t that the reaction most would go for? Ramsay loses Sansa, and only another Stark will do, for whatever he plans to unleash on whomever?
Are we to see Howland Reed in this upcoming episode, during ToJ fight? We’ve heard about Howland, and met his kinder (Jojen & Meera). We haven’t seen Howland. Is it totally out of the question for D&D to be re-assigning a missed plot-line that feels like it’d work in the current show story-line? What if ‘Little Man’ refers to Howland?
Crannogmen don’t grow tall, apparently. They’re supposedly closer to Andals, First Men and Children of the Forest, compared to other Westerosi, aren’t they?
Did anyone else consider Howland?
Would the show take the route of another child being slaughtered, potentially being flayed then burned? I hope not, simply because it’s still fresh in people’s heads what happened with Shireen. I appreciate it could be something Ramsay would do, given chance.
JonFookinSnow,
Ah I’ll have to try that out. Thanks.
Dee,
Your e-mail notifications don’t? For me it just sends me every response to the thread.
Ser Lurk of House Turnip,
Stannis lives. Ramsey was bullshitting Daddy to try and impress him. Brienne stored Stannis in that Inn she was staying in and had the old bird from season 5 (male version) look after him while she adventured.
Now I will run out of this thread before everyone wants to kick my ass.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Ha!! I like it. He’s sat there grinding his teeth right now 😀 denial ftw
I love this effing show n this season is a rush but OMFG I NEED THAT BOOK
I think that Ramsey will NOT go to the wall after all. Next episode, he will receive Rickon as a gift. He will then send a pink letter to Jon saying that he has Rickon and that “Winterfell is mine. Come and see”.
Dee,
Of course!!..haha.
I keep on seeing people say that “only death can pay for life.”
Here’s the thing. That statement only applied to whatever magic that Mirri Maz Duur used. In that case, three deaths (Khal Drogo, Rhaego, and Mirri Maz Durr) paid for the lives of Dany’s three dragons.
The Lord of Light, however, uses a different magic system. Thoros was able to resurrect Bedric six times without using deaths to pay for those resurrections. Death is not necessary to pay for life in the LoL’s magic system.
What I am wondering about, however, is how important a king’s blood is to LoL’s magic system. We’ve seen how it works. Stannis’ semen was able to produce a shadow baby that killed King Renly. The blood leeches from Gendry (Eldric Storm in the books) was used to kill off three kings (King Robb,King Joffrey, and King Balon). Shireen’s death was used to create a massive thawing, which led to the death of King Stannis. It seems that if you use a king’s blood, another king will die.
If R+L=J is true, then Jon Snow has king’s blood in him. Will that come into play further down the road? Will Jon Snow’s blood be used to cause the death of another king?
I wonder if they will show the ToJ fight on Sunday, but then not what happens INSIDE for another few episodes, while having Bran wonder aloud why three kingsguard would have been guarding Lyanna.
I have a question!
Is anyone as stoked as I am, that we’re finally getting introduced to the only westerosi region that we havent seen yet in the show: The Reach?
– The North and The Crownlands feature heavilly each season.
– The Riverlands have had a big presence since the first season where it was shown (albeit shortly) when the freys were introduced. Aryas storyline in season 2 took place there and the Riverlands had several subplots running in season three, as that was where a lot of the war took place. Now in season 6, it looks like the region is coming back in a big way.
– The Vale had a subplot there in the first season, and one in the fourth. Sansas story started off there in the 5’th.
– The Stormlands was featured in the second season.
– The Iron Islands was introduced in the second season, revisited shortly around the end of season 3, and a subplot is taking place there in the 6’th season.
– Dorne was introduced in the sixth season and is still being visited this season.
BUT The Reach has yet to be scene, which Means we have a lot of good stuff waiting. The Reach holds som every important Places, among them Highgarden af Oldtown 🙂 looking forward!
Rexpage,
I don’t have any ideas that haven’t already been mentioned, except this. I really like this idea!
Ser Lurk of House Turnip,
totally agree would love to see Davos discuss things with her.
But I am hoping it wont come down to a situation where Davos wants to kill her and Jon would say no #annoying lol but I am sure he has every right since she brought him back.
Stannis was meant to die. He is not the saviour of everyone. He was the means to bring Mel to Jon, Save Jon and the NW from Mance and co In season 4 and even Davos to Jon (in the show)
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I don’t get any notifications 🙁
Masa Stark,
as we are all!
Why do people think Melisandre didn’t Res jon?
did I miss something?
As for Jon Snow’s Night Watch’s vows …
The vows don’t apply to him anymore. He died. His watch ended when he died.
I do suspect that Jon’s not one to look for easy loopholes. He’ll likely start out from the premise that he’s still a member of the Night’s Watch, and death didn’t change that.
However, I suspect that two things will sway him.
1) Davos will point out to him that when he died, his vows ended as well, and will urge him to think about what the best way to protect the North is. It’s not to stay with Night’s Watch and their remaining 48ish men (44 if you exclude the main mutineers). Rather, it’s to go and rally the North and gather a fighting force. That’s the best way for Jon Snow to protect the realm.
2) The Pink Letter. Jon will receive this letter, and much like what he did in the books he will realize that in order to unite the North and to defend Westeros from the White Walkers, he will need to remove the Boltons from power. However, as a bastard (whether R+L=J is true or not, and whether he knows about it or not, no one else will care), he won’t be able to do this by himself. Enter Sansa. Sansa will be the one to use her political powers to unify the lesser North families against the Boltons (and Umbers, Karstarks, & Manderlys), and Jon will be the one leading the army. However, to lead this army, he will have to leave Night’s Watch.
(Note: The Manderlys will switch at the last minute, and the battle of the six armies will be Boltons / Umbers / Karstarks vs. Manderlys / Wildings / Starks & Lesser North families.)
Do we think we are going to see resurrected Jon interact with other people in the next episode?
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Beric Dondarrion said it:
“Every time I come back, I’m a bit less. Pieces of you get chipped away.”
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Assuming Jon learns of Ramsay’s intent, I can’t see him being passive & just waiting around to see what happens, so I think he’ll want to stop him. On the other hand, he has bigger things to worry about (Whitewalkers, anyone?). (And I’m hoping Ramsay’s “gift” isn’t poor Theon.) I don’t think it will happen, but it would be great if Theon got home, then came back with Yara & big contingent of Ironborn to take Ramsay & co. down. (Leaving Jon free to deal with the bigger threat.)
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
We can only hope the identity of Lyanna’s child will be revealed and we’ll finally know what Ned’s promise was.
Damphairintheshowplease!,
You forgot the Westerlands. Good ole Casterly Rock. Wonder if we’ll ever go there. I bet if there is a future HBO spin off it will take place in the South as the North has been exhausted.
I think Jon will get a pink letter . . .
Replace Mance with Rickon, replace six whores with Osha . . .
Sigmakan,
But there’s no wife to steal. I do like this idea though.
Nvm I read that wrong:)
SO OT: Is outlander a good show??
Have you seen the preview for episode 3?
JonFookinSnow,
I only saw it once and I saw him getting up from the table…..
though that’s all I remember seeing.
I just wanna know if we think he may TALK and we will see peoples reactions.
I am going to china for work next week and I don’t think ill be able to watch GOT FOR TWO weeks so I need some MORE satisfaction before I leave LOL though I wasn’t expecting to get his REZ before I left LOL
Well Tormund says: They think you’re some kind of god! So i would presume that he will interact with people. And Mels faith will be restored like 200%.
JonFookinSnow,
I hope so
nm
1) We already paid the price, the cost was Shireen, sadly enough. And maybe part of Jon’s softness. I expect a much more darker/less conflicted Jon, meaning he will not feel much mercy towards those who crossed him or feel allegiance to the NW. This will allow his story to move forward…..
2) to the North! he, davos and sansa will make rounds recruiting the north against the Boltons. With Jon as a Jesus figure, I think NOW the North will be very much inclined to follow a bastard Stark.
3) TOJ flashback airing on Mother’s Day…….get HYPED 🙂 Viewers finding out the truth of Jon’s parentage is only the beginning. Its a long season and much has to develop, so yeah, I accept “promise me Ned” scene to either close out or open the show.
Thanks for these great discussions!
1. How was Jon resurrected and what is the cost?
It happened as we saw it – in the show, anyway. In the books it will involve warging.
It would be difficult for Jon not to be changed by being murdered; obviously he’d be naive and borderline idiotic to continue trusting to honor as much as he has in the past. I think he’ll be more of a realist, a bit more ruthless. I wouldn’t be surprised if he executes the mutineers.
I wonder if the cost might also involve the sudden adulation of hordes of people who think he’s a god. We’ve seen in King’s Landing how powerful and disruptive masses of devout people can be, and I could imagine the “Jon-is-a-deity” thing could spin out of control. (As an aside, and slightly crackpot theory, I also wonder if the Faceless Men might hear of Jon’s resurrection, decide that the God of Many Faces has been cheated of a death, and try to send Arya to kill him again, precipitating the crisis that sends her back to Westeros.)
2. What will happen in the North?
The setup for the Battle of the Bastards, with emissaries and alliances and Rickon as a pawn. Can’t add much to what’s been suggested above, but I hope that in the end, the Manderlys betray the Boltons, Ramsay is fed to the dogs, and Littlefinger ends up being sacrificed in the godswood. I’m worried for Rickon and Shaggydog.
3. ToJ would work better split in two. The pacing of this season is already so fast, and if Unsullied show watchers aren’t cued in and given a chance to put the pieces together themselves, I think the impact risks getting lost. Either way, though, it’s going to be amazing to see this play out.
The only thing I have to add is on the issue of an alternative promise. We all think that Ned promised to keep Jon safe and hide him. It would be a real twist if Lyanna asked Ned to fight for Jon’s right to the throne, and Ned chose not to.
Right now, though, I’m most curious to see how Hodor fits into all of this, since that is something completely outside of book-based fan speculation and I haven’t been mulling it over for years and years and years. Nice to have something new to think about.
fierce as a wolverine,
Right now, though, I’m most curious to see how Hodor fits into all of this
OT: Do you remember if Hodor
from the Winterfell crypt in the show?
I too am curious about Hodor. He feels like more than just a secondary character.
Ur just jealous you didn’t think of it first.
fierce as a wolverine,
Wow! I love the crackpot theory and the altered promise!!!!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
You’re right! Dammit! I forgot that region! But the story has already taken us to the Westerlands. That was where most of Robbs warring took place in the second season, mainly the battle of Oxcross and when he was negotiating with The Crag. Casterly Rock is yet to come though.
Any surprise the tower of Joy episode will air on Mothers day?,,,,,#mom
Now that we have some Hodor background (I can’t remember if the book went into detail yet, but I think a little bit of info), I hope to see what “Hodor” means. Easiest assumption might be, “the door,” but who knows if it’s a name, place, random thing, or expression upon seeing something.
Jerkface,
Your own bias on what YOU want to see happen is clouding reality and frankly, common sense. The Jon Snow cliffhanger happened in 2011, not 2015. So producers didnt have much choice but to play it similarly to the books. Keep in mind, at the time of filming (in 2014), Book 6 was scheduled to come out before Season 6. So yeah, even more reason to end Season 5 with Jon’s stabbing as in Book 5. Based on the mythology that has been built around Jon, most people knew he wouldnt be dead…BUT that didnt take away the suspense of how/when/why…especially after it didnt happen in Ep 1.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Its so obvious its a joke LOL
hehe
Hawk,
“the door”
Did you say that previously? I mentioned it in another thread but was to lazy to find the person to attribute it to. Someone else (not looking that up either) mentioned “hold ‘er” which sounds sinister but phonetically similar. I am really hopeful that Hodor’s name isn’t sad story. To me one of the most difficult scenes was the NW mutineers tying him up and hitting and stabbing him.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
I cannot shake this feeling that the John Snow death and Resurrection are a long con by GRRM and D&D. I do not think it was Melisandre magic that rose Jon. First of all, we know very little about magic, how it works, and what it is in that universe. In some instances, blood magic requires a sacrifice, “only life can pay for death.” In other circumstances it does not require a sacrifice. This must mean something. I think it means that the characters and the audience know nothing at all about the magic.
My tin foil hat theory is that the stories we are seeing in these first episodes are out of time- meaning they are weeks and/or months out of sync with each other. We have seen plenty of evidence for that, even though it has been a bit confusing (e.g. Jamie and the boat in KL versus Sansa and Theon at Winterfell, etc.). Thus, what is happening with Bran and Bloodraven is not at the exact same time as the NW/JS story.
Bloodraven will show Bran JS’s parentage and that he is important. Then, either Bloodraven along with Bran will be the ones to resurrect JS (which is what we saw), or Bran will have to worg into JS in order to “keep him alive.” Remember, power is where we believe it lies. Maybe all resurrections are just worgs taking over important figures.
It seems too crazy that this story would take such a tropey, predictable route as killing Jon snow and then resurrecting him in such a predictable way. On the other hand, maybe they are very anxious to get to the next step and this was just something to get through.
I cannot believe HBO and D&D thought they fooled the audience or even tried to under these circumstances. Hence, this whole thing feels like a red herring, a misdirect.
The real shocker will be that JS is, in fact, dead. But, Kit Harrington still gets to stay, and all still gets revealed. Have your cake and eat it too.
Of course, this too has been done before.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
well, last we heard Ramsey was planning on charging the NW. So, something is going to keep him from heading to the wall. But, his stupidity will finally get him. Big battle.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
It is possible that a mystery born in 1996 could be revealed this SUNDAY.
i think this will be doled out in little pieces until about episode 5 or 6. However, those who know the theory will be convinced a lot sooner, where as just show watchers will probably need it laid out explicitly.
I’m fearful that the price for Jon’s resurrection will be Melisandre’s own life ?
Just hoping the “gift” the Umbers bring is a caught Theon – not a soon to be flayed Rickon.
ash,
Thank you for your comment! Right, indeed, we are! 🙂
George,
He mentions wanting different things throughout the series, but not being able to have them because of his place in life as a “bastard” (e.g. to have sex with a girl, to be like Robb, to be legitimized as a Stark). I think being murdered by his own men is going to give Jon a very “gives no fucks” mentality. He died; he gets a second chance. He’s going to do what he needs to do to save the realm, and what’s left of his family.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Jon’s family
Tycho Nestoris,
What?
Dee,
I don’t mind if it is Melisandre’s doing. The way I see it, since Jon is the central figure of this whole story (obviously he represents “ice” of the title, “ice and fire”) and the story will be more dramatic, I figured it should be more than “one human being’s” doing. But, that said, the way I see it, it is not that important so I don’t mind even if it is just Melisandre’s doing or the God of light’s doing for that matter. I don’t know what other people think, though.
Mihnea,
1. I think Jon has always just warged into Ghost right before his human body died, and he was “called back” by Melisandre using her real-though-not-perfect magic and her old age. His death was the catalyst to awaken this ability and Melisandre’s enchantment was his tether to the human world. I don’t think she resurrected him – she literally just called him back. It needed to be Melisandre because she’s so old that one might argue she lives between the human and spirit world without her Glamour. I don’t think there’s a cost to his re-implantation back into his human body. None of the other Stark kids who would warg needed to incur a cost as a result of this ability.
2. The North should now be a 3 way fight amongst Ramsay, Sansa, and Jon, with the cousins allying with each other obviously. Sansa will get to the Wall to see the now-returned Jon, who’s no longer bound to the Wall. He can choose to either stay there or go back to Winterfell with Sansa. I can’t see him sending Sansa alone back to Winterfell after she presumably tells him all the abuse that Ramsay has put her through. If Jon returns to Winterfell, he will need to appoint someone to rule the Wall in his stead – that would logically be Davos and his allies from before his death. Melisandre will want to go with Jon since she’ll see him as Azor Ahai. At Winterfell, Ramsay (as a Stark in law) will be outranked by Jon (canonically presumed Stark on the dad side at this point) plus the eldest full-Stark daughter so he has no claim. I don’t think it’ll even result in the “battle of the bastards” because Ramsay clearly loses. He has no legitimate claim against Jon plus Sansa. I can see a civil unrest amongst the Boltons and Freys since gossip of Ramsay as kinslayer will spread. When Walder Frey hears that Ramsay stripped Walda the chance of being Queen of the North, he will be very angry as well.
3. I think we will see Lyanna death scene at the Tower and we’ll see her make Ned promise to treat Jon as his own, and to never tell him about his true parentage. I don’t think we’ll see young Rhaegar.
Xenite,
Your Ramsay comments got me thinking. He’s really stacking up the enemies and may figuratively and literally (sorry for the fiendish pleasure but I am over any redemption for him) be torn apart from all sides. Hopefully, Direwolves, Wun Wun, Tormund and Jon do the ripping.
I also like your Jon rez theory.
If Ramsey’s fate isn’t at the hands of a pack of blood-thirsty dogs, or Ghost, I’m going to be disappointed . . .
I don’t think this is tinfoil at all, and in fact, that the show has always done this with events that don’t happen in the same geographical location…I think this is the show’s way of mirroring the book’s use of time, since George’s chapter order has never been about strict chronological continuity either.
I think the show telegraphed Ramsey’s ultimate fate by way of Roose’s “prediction”: “If you act like a rabid dog you will die like a rabid dog”
Huh…
Well, that would explain why Ned is “haunted” by “broken promises” whenever he thinks of Lyanna, wouldn’t it??
Well, if you like historical fiction or shows, time travel and or romance, yep you’ll probably think it’s a good show.
Ha! the tinfoil hat part is that Bran/Bloodraven resurrect Jon, and possibly Bran worgs into Jon making it look like a resurrection. The out of time sync, you are right, is a fact. But it makes tinfoil hat theory possible.
Great parallel. I could honestly see Jon accepting a kingship–KITN or IT–if it were the quickest way to unite people to fight the WW, but he’d still be incredibly reluctant. If he’s still alive at the end of it, he might even hand it back ?
Hear, hear!
Dee,
Probably. D&D just don’t want to taint Jon’s resurrection with sacrifice of a little girl. Shireen
Tycho Nestoris,
I don’t remember if this happened on the show. Good question.
Someone out there must know. Anyone?
serum,
Thanks. 🙂
fierce as a wolverine,
Good excuse for me to go back and watch that episode. In the books
No one seems to be talking about a major plot reveal about Bran.
The Child of the Forest tells Meera Reed that Bran will need her ‘out there’. That he will be leaving the Three Eyed Raven’s tree.
1. Jon’s personality will be different. It took Mel losing her faith to be reminded.
2. War.
3. During the flashback in episode 2, Bran is in awe. He sees his father. His uncle. And the aunt he never met. When he tells Brynden Rivers, he’s only seen her face in the crypts, the three eyed Raven begins to speak, but Bran has disappeared. I believe the whole purpose of this flashback was to tell Bran about his aunt’s significance, but Bran is beginning to drown in the ocean of nostalgia. The Tower of Joy will be the second attempt at this.
Rexpage,
Jaime gave Brienne “Oathkeeper?” I wonder how that would fit in…
Also, where is Bron? I am getting frantic. 🙂
A Man with an extra nipple,
Or perhaps
Tootie,
Tootie and Isabelle: I agree completely. Jon will be Stark of the North, and that will frustrate those who want him to be otherwise. The Targ DNA /I am dragon viewpoint could facilitate a pathway which will not be his chosen path. Thwarts the trope while making sense and following past events.
We need to remember when thinking about this that the show is geared towards ‘casual’ viewers. They don’t pour over small details the way we do and things have to make sense to them from what they have seen. Book info which hasn’t made it to screen probably isn’t the answer because it wouldn’t mean anything to non-readers. The show and book versions of events may have the same result but get there a different way.
1. I’m with the same-way-as-Thoros-brought-Beric-back-the-first-time school of thought. Whether it was the total loss of faith, desperation, special words, a combination of those, or something else entirely, for whatever reason a powerful force kicked in to action and voilà, he’s back. Not sure if there is a cost? In the show I think warging is really unlikely as the few people we have seen do it had milky eye action going on, it was obvious something strange was happening, but IIRC both Jon’s and Ghost’s eyes looked the same throughout as they usually do? IMHO they wouldn’t do it very subtley.
2. Ramsay is clearly bat sh*t crazy and his preferred method is to either get rid of people altogether or rule them through fear. Perhaps he gets some of the Northern Houses on side by threatening to attack them unless they join him? Some may do what he says purely to survive rather than because they actually support him. As he pointed out to his father, the Cerwyn’s are now paying their taxes after some ‘encouragement’ from him.
3. Not interested in the ToJ itself (I hate fights), rather what it means to the story now. Whatever happened must be important or they wouldn’t include it, so why are we finding out now and what will the knock on effect be?
Lulus Mum,
both Jon’s and Ghost’s eyes looked the same throughout as they usually do?
Jon’s eyes did seem redder (like ghost’s), although that was likely from the stab woulds. I’m reaching I know.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
When Mel pleaded to ask the Lord of the Light, like Thoros of Myr did for Beric, to bring Jon back.
The cost will be like Beric who lost a piece of himself each time that he was brought back.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Which is why he kept it all a secret to make sure no one knew.
Irene,
I think Davos knows he is not a leader, but needs a leader to fight the wars to come and that man is Jon
Mihnea,
I thought there was a new LC this season, someone that we have known for many seasons? Doesnt mean Jon will give up his title willingly, maybe Davos or Mel will convince him to break his vows? Agree that it wont be as clear cut as Jon wanting to leave the NW, but signs (not just spoilers) are pointing to him being free of that title.
Tycho Nestoris,
Yeah, that seems to be a fan favorite.
He might very well leave and communicate with Blood Raven and the other times and parts of Westeros through the Heart trees. It’s a problem that GRRM hasn’t completely solved in ASOIAF. Bran has this potential to know a lot of things and be helpful, but other than whispering to Theon in the Godswood, he hasn’t been able to communicate that knowledge yet. I assume he is going to get better at this or Bran is destined to be a tool for exposition in the future.
By the same tokens, the books are aimed first and foremost at casual readers, just like every other book (or book series) is. If GRRM’s over-arching tale does not make sense to someone who reads through it once, then he will have failed as a storyteller. If you have to actually “study” a book to understand the plot or the story, then that is a very poorly written book!
I think that is a very good assessment. Davos needs a new Stannis: and the way Davos approached Jon last year hinted that he views Jon as someone like Stannis. Jon’s deeds since then might only enhance that.
Good call.
Did she say that Bran would need her while he was out there, or that Bran would need her out there? I thought that I heard the latter, but I might have misheard. That’s important because “I need you out there” or “he needs you out there” is what you say to someone when that person is being sent somewhere on someone’s behalf, as opposed to “I need you out there with me” if you want them as your lieutenant while you are out there.
However, that definitely means that Meera will be “out there” with or without Bran. Perhaps she will tell Jon about his parents.
Wimsey,
The Child of the Forest actually says, “He isn’t going to stay here forever”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtKPvjJxbNY
This promo pic begins to make sense now as well:
Ah, did she? I did not catch that: Thanks! (I was having problems understanding her.) Well, perhaps Bran will leave: I had assumed that he was going to stay as part of a tree!
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
It was through Melisandre’s crisis of Faith, and a combo of Shireen and Balon’s deaths. Both of them have King’s blood and therefore their sacrifice has to be repaid. In a similar way that Jaqen is testing Arya’s commitment to the Many Faced God, R’hllor was testing her’s to him and then will re-affirm it when she finally sees what she’s capable of. In other words, it was a resurrection for Mel as much for Jon. He will have a harder edge though. Thorne was right, in a way, about Jon’s good heart getting them all killed. He just didn’t anticipate that a less forgiving version of the man he murdered is probably going to heed those words and execute him and the other traitors.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
The Umbers are going to hand Rickon over to Ramsay, and he’s going to use him to demand Sansa and Reek back. Sansa and Davos are going to rally Northern houses, and Brienne will be sent to the Riverlands to get help from the Blackfish and maybe Littlefinger. Jon may well just be training the Wildlings until the final battle, and eventually deciding his death has freed him from his vow to the Night’s Watch.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
Like other people have said, I doubt we’re going to see all of it. In ep. 3 we’ll probably see the battle and then The Three Eyed Raven will once again pull Bran out of his Green dream. When we go back in ep.5 Ned and Howland Reed will finally climb the Tower and they’ll find Lyanna. I am starting to wonder if Hodor/Wyllis maybe squired for Ned, and his ‘Hodoring’ came about as a consequence of him seeing Lyanna in a pool of blood. They were seemingly close when Bran saw them. Also, and I know this is probably a really naff idea, but isn’t ep. 5 called ‘The Door’, i.e possibly relating to the moment when Ned swings open the door and sees his sister? Maybe Wyllis also saw the same thing and he was traumatised by it enough to be perpetually trapped, verbally, in that moment in time? In effect, he’s not talking gibberish, rather he’s been a clue to the show/book’s biggest secret all along.
Rexpage,
I really like your thinking
Yes!
Isabelle,
I quite like the idea of him handing it back. “Here Dany, you can have it. You want it anyway. I’m going back up North.” It really depends what Jon’s ultimate role is: to bring peace or to rule?
A Sandwich Free series of Answers.
Q1 – Jon was brought back by Prayer – it remains to be seen if other forces have combined to bring Jon back more whole than he might have been.
The consequences of bring Jon back other than a bit of disorientation are that he will feel the weight of his burden more than he did in the past, and that he will aslo be frightened that he could lose his humanity – especially if he dies more than once.
Q2 – Anything could happen in the North but in short I think Sansa will get to CB and help Jon connect with his humanity as well as giving him focus. Sansa will head off with Davos and Mel to Raise the North, beginning with Bear Island – as Davos knows they are loyal banner women. Crows will be sent out to houses they think they can trust including to the Vale. Sansa will have called on LF to rally his army and come north. She will also send Brienne to the Riverlands to seek out Arya and fruther aid, in particularly from the Black Fish. BF is important because of his long service in the Vale and I suspect Sansa will use these connections to help undermine LF. While Brienne is in the Riverlands she will also come across JAmie and try to convince him to fight with the North in the coming battle with the WW. She will fail initially but the seeds will be planted and Jamie will eventually come North.
Again the Bolton supporters are waiting for a chance to rebel with the exception of the Karstarks and a faction of Umbers.
Q3 – The tower of Joy will play out as expected. Perhaps there will be a new revelation about Hodor, Benjen or Jon outside of your standard R+J=J set up. What happens to Arthur and Ashara will probably be more interesting.
A question for WOTW staff,
I’ve noticed the site getting progressively slower in terms of load times. Oftentimes I can’t load a page, yet I have highspeed net. Any plans to get a faster server?
Anyways, thanks for the great site.
Jack Bauer 24,
LS couldn’t talk because she’d had her vocal cords cut when her throat was slit. No relation.
Oh, come on. When someone (someday when it’s all written) reads ASOIAF, they will understand the plot, even if they missed clues about Jon.
But to fully understand masterpiece stories, from ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ to ‘Hamlet,’ you do have to study them. And George’s series is a masterpiece in its own way. Nothing wrong with having to study something, for heaven’s sake. All true art deserves and necessitates examination!
Um…it’s soapy and boring at times. I’ve read the books and the show sometimes gets the intent of a scene very wrong…her acting is over the top. Silly contrived moments of tension. Brain and loin candy….
A Man with an extra nipple,
You bring up an excellent point about Bran being exposition only or actually able to affect things in the past. I thought BR (in the show) said something (like all time traveler teachers do) about not being able to change things. Well, I guess Doc Brown said you could change things but that could cause big problems.
I like the idea of exposition only for past events. Maybe if Bran sees the future he could try to avoid things but that to is a prickly power.
EDIT: Sorry I thought you were replying to a different comment (about Jon’s eyes being red). The one you were referring to may have been a (poor) joke.
GrailKing,
Yes!! Thanks, def gonna go back and watch that now. Maybe we can find out which one(s)…
1. I believe Jon’s resurrection was partly because of Mel, but I also think Ghost has a part to play in this too. “When asked about Ghost turning his attention to Jon right before he wakes up, Podeswa declines to give more information, but says, “I would say if you keep watching, all will be revealed.” Interested to find out that connection. And he has to lose something…maybe he loses a bit of his loyalty? Or maybe he just comes back a little bit more ruthless (death to Olly please)!!
2. I’m excited to see what happens in the North. I think Sansa will eventually get to Castle Black and tell Jon about all the things Ramsay’s done. I think Rickon will end up being Ramsay’s “gift” and when this gets back to Jon and Sansa, hopefully he marches on Castleblack with the wildlings and we finally get to see Ramsay get his head chopped off!!
3. TOJ scene is going to be awesome!! Although, I surely don’t think they will give us the whole truth in this episode. I think they will throw some twists in there that will get us thinking, but leave the complete truth for a different episode. I’m hoping they at least let us know what happened to Hodor!!
Josh L.,
I like your thinking. Maybe Jon’s blood will cause Tommen’s death?!?!
Wednesday you say…. And where is the fricking show?
In the preview it shows Smalljon Umber bringing a present for Ramsey, alot of people will probably think that he came across Theon, I think this is a present he brought from home. At the end of season 3 Bran sends Osha, Rickon, and Summer to Last Hearth, they are Stark bannermen and will keep them safe, Smalljon Umber, I presume they killed off his father, in the books it the other way around, and Smalljon is Lord of Last Hearth. It’s most likely one of 2 things, the Umbers showing their allegiance to the Boltons of Winterfell, or them sending a decoy Rickon along with Summer to trick Ramsey, with the way things go, I think it will be the first suggestion, looks like we will most likely see the death of yet another Stark this season.
A moment from “Home” that I initially missed on first watch was Leaf telling Meera that she and Hodor are important because Bran isn’t going to be staying in the cave forever. While I (as well as probably a lot of other people) had hoped he wouldn’t spend the rest of his life isolated in the corner of the world, this was (I think) the first time we got confirmation that he’ll be on the move. Maybe he’ll head south and make the crypts of Winterfell his cave:
“The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother’s milk. Darkness will make you strong.”
…or maybe he goes further north. Just glad like Meera that this isn’t their final destination.
Do we know when Littlefinger returns? I wonder if he gets captured by Ramsey and tortured. And is there no chance at all for Lady Stoneheart to reappear this season? Was the actress who played the mother spotted at all during the filming?
They showed in the previews that Jeoffry comes back to life. And presumably by Jamies “We’ll take back what they took” line they bring back the daughter as well. I think people return bitter like Lady Stoneheart was in the books. Jon will be back but his personality will be changed.
Tycho Nestoris,
No worries. My point about the warging is that there has been a lot of speculation on how Jon would come back. The easiest and laziest theory being that Bran would just inhabit him. Granted they haven’t dealt with much of the taboo of taking control of a human in GoT, but you only see Bran do it in emergencies and not for long. It’s fairly obvious that this is not a sustainable strategy, given the warnings Jorjen offered about staying in Summer too long. Especially since there are two other examples of people being brought back from the dead successfully with good (Beric Dondarion) and bad (Drogo) results.
My larger point was not so much about Bran being able to change history, but about his knowledge being useful to the other characters. In GoT, all of the information he is learning is really useless to the characters until he can disseminate it.
But, in GoT, it looks like they have decided to solve that problem by having Brandon leave Blood Raven’s cave and move around (supposedly moving south). Therefore he should still be able to communicate with Blood Raven through the Weirwoods and also see into the past and future using the tools Blood Raven is teaching him currently. He can then communicate this information to any character he is in contact with. This is not an insignificant plot development. It really gives Brandon an opportunity to affect the upcoming war let alone the political struggles of Westeros.
Blanks,
See my and Tycho Nestoris’ discussions above.
anon,
From last season Little Finger had offered Cersi the army of the Vale. With the idea that he would destroy the weekend army that was left over from the Stanis/Bolton battle. Retaking the North for what she believes is the 7 Kingdoms, but actually for Little Finger. Giving him control of the North and the Vale.
I expect he is currently marching the Army of the Vale North towards Winterfell.
Tootie,
Still a good show, and yes the female protagonist is all everything, but they do get a lot of things right, and I’ve read some of the books, have a few more to go.
1. How was Jon resurrected? What will be the cost?
Mel’s Red God. The cost will be a piece of his soul. He’s only been resurrected once, not six times like Beric Dondarrion, so he won’t be as affected as Beric was, but he may forget pieces of his past. Jon has already stated that he has seen the oblivion after death, that it puts the fear of God in Jon, making him want to live his life to the fullest and not want to die, but not wanting to be resurrected again if he does.
2. What happens in the North, now that Roose Bolton is dead and Ramsay is threatening Castle Black?
Ramsay may send a force to see what’s up at CB, but they won’t march on it once they realize there’s a Wildling army there. He will definitely send the pink letter, which prompt Jon and Sansa to begin recruiting Northern houses to their cause to culminate in the Battle for Winterfell in episode 9.
3. What will happen in the Tower of Joy?
I don’t think Bran will see the whole thing. I think he’ll witness the fight and then hear Lyanna cry out to Ned, then the 3ER will grab his shoulder and take him back to the cave, for the full reveal an episode or two later.
Tootie,
Thank you! That made my day ?
Yes, I don’t think he’s ever desired ruling as anything other than a means to an end, that end being peace. Sure he’s ambitious, but in the sense that he’s highly capable and wants to put his skills to use/have them recognised. He’s not power-hungry; if he were, he would have taken Stannis’ offer of Winterfell. If indeed he’s been named King in the North, I’m so looking forward to how he receives the news!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Lady StoneWalda
Can anyone translate this: