Glass Candle Dialogue: Early Predictions for Game of Thrones Season Eight!

706 - Night King Frozen Lake

Season seven is just behind us and the eighth … well, it’s very far away ahead of us, but it will arrive someday. Now, before there are any production spoilers to ruin our baseless speculation, we bring you our early predictions for the last season of Game of Thrones.

Who will live and who will die? Is that a fair metric we should use to judge the show? How conventional or subversive should we expect the conclusion to be? Will our craziest theories come true? We try to answer all of that and more — below the cut.

Luka: Each year, before there are any spoilers, I dutifully write my predictions, and then modify them as information comes in, so I can piece together the story as best as I can. But my initial predictions are always fun to look back on. So this is an exciting time.

Petra: We get to put on our tinfoil hats! I’m horrible at making predictions, though. Let’s just get that out of the way. So, everything I’m about to say is going to be wrong.

Luka: Don’t worry. Maybe, out of all of your wrongness, we’ll get to triangulate the truth!

7x01 Jon Alys Karstark Ned Umber

Luka: The White Walkers have breached the Wall. In “Dragonstone”, Jon declared that Eastwatch, Last Hearth and Karhold must be manned because the Night King was last seen in Hardhome; these Northeasternmost strongholds will be the first line of defense. Eastwatch has fallen, so I’m afraid young Ned Umber and Alys Karstark and their respective ancestral homes will be the next casualties in this new War for the Dawn. I don’t necessarily think we’ll get to see the castles fall, but I bet we at least hear about it.

Petra: There could be a montage of these strongholds falling to the White Walkers and these minor characters dying at the same time, though it wouldn’t really happen that way. That’d be a pretty tragic way to open: poor little Ned’s and Alys’ last stand.

Luka: We might see something like that as part of a minor time jump of a few weeks, as we did with the taking of Casterly Rock and Highgarden. The showrunners might want to show these showdowns in some way, in a filmically interesting montage, though certainly not in expensive, elaborate battle sequences. After all, as unfortunate as the deaths of Alys and Ned would be, we can’t say these are characters we care about, beyond the fact that they are blameless children. But there are major characters in immediate danger as well. What fate do you believe awaits Beric and Tormund?

7x07 Tormund Beric Eastwatch

Petra: I think they’ll be okay… for a short while. They probably won’t make it to the end. But it’d be very silly if they narrowly survived the Wall falling at the end of season seven only to be killed off in the opening scene of season eight, wouldn’t it? They can die in the premiere, but not the first scene. Will we just open on Tormund and Beric’s dead faces?

Luka: They may survive the opening scene, but I’d bet they’ll die early on nonetheless. Soon after watching the finale I’d have thought they’d survive for a good while, because Beric and Tormund would be the ones to go to Winterfell and warn them about the Wall. Then I realized that, of course, Bran saw it all through the ravens. So there’s no need. There are six episodes left and they might want to start off with a bang, and here we have two relatively expendable characters who are already in quite a pickle.

Petra: I like both of them. It’s gonna be sad.

Luka: We’ll be losing two of the great voices, by the way.

Petra: Oh, yeah! Maybe they can still sing and play with the Brotherhood Without Banjos.

1x01 Jaime in Winterfell Joffrey Sandor

Luka: In this strange show, most of the cast has shared a location only three times: Winterfell for Robert’s arrival in “Winter is Coming”; the Red Keep for Joffrey’s wedding in “The Lion and the Rose”; and the Dragonpit summit in “The Dragon and the Wolf.” Yet another congregation of characters may be right around the corner, in the very next episode. The Stark children were the only main characters missing at the summit, but now all of its participants are heading to where the Starks live, except for Cersei and her ever-dwindling retinue. Speaking of whom: Jaime, of course, is heading North, having deserted his sister at long last. What do you think our oathkeeper will find there?

Petra: Some means of redemption, hopefully. It’ll be an interesting callback to season one if Jaime returns to Winterfell. It would add some poignant circularity to his story if becoming a better man entails returning to the site of his greatest crime (in addition to potentially having to kill his second mad monarch, but I’m sure we’ll get to that later.) Anyway, I don’t have a clear idea of what might ensue once he arrives in Winterfell.

Luka: As I see it, Jaime will offer his services to Daenerys, and probably be quite ready to admit the attempted murder of Bran and face the consequences. Plenty of people will call for his head, but Bran will declare some weird raven shit about his fall from the tower being crucial in his journey to raven weirdness, thus exculpating Jaime. And then Tyrion and Brienne will intervene on his behalf regarding his intentions going forward.

Brienne Jaime Season 6 No One

Petra: It could be a pretty powerful summation of Jaime’s arc if, in one scene, all these characters, particularly Brienne, come forth to testify to how much he’s changed.

Luka: Now that they aren’t on opposite sides of a war, hopefully Jaime can be more forthright about his feelings. A happy ending for them may not be likely, but I hope they get to be happy together, in some form, before one of them perishes — probably Jaime.

Petra: I’ve got a good sense of where Jaime is going, and but we’ll get to that later, but I’m not sure about a conclusion for Brienne. I love Gwendoline Christie’s idea that she founds a finishing school for “unconventional young ladies” but that’s unlikely to become canon. I can’t really think of a satisfying or else poetically tragic ending for her.

Hug

Luka: After all these years, Arya will reunite with Jon, Gendry and Sandor!

Petra: I’m excited to see how Arya reacts to them — or to human society in general. Arya’s ability to accept affection (or lack thereof) is something I expect the show will delve into as her arc comes to a close. Part of me wants a reprise of Arya jumping into Jon’s arms, as she did when they last saw each other, but that’s not going to happen.

Luka: I think it might! I believe the reunion will be exactly what you wish could happen. When Arya heard from Hot Pie that Jon was back in Winterfell as King in the North, we saw Arya’s Faceless facade melt, we saw little Arya return for a few minutes there. We’ll get that again times a thousand when she actually gets to see Jon. Later, it’ll probably get a bit awkward as Jon realizes Arya isn’t the little girl he remembered anymore.

7x02 Nymeria Arya 1

Petra: I like the idea of Sansa and Arya staying together, ruling side by side to the very end. But I’m thinking we’ll get something more along the lines of what was implied with Nymeria. She loves the people that she loves but her place isn’t with them anymore. In the books she might die, but in the show I think it’s more likely that she leaves to see what’s “West of Westeros,” as she told Lady Crane she wanted to in season six.

Luka: Something like that would be a nice, melancholic ending for a character like Arya. Sadly, as a fandom, we tend to discuss the possibility of characters dying or surviving as happy and tragic endings respectively, but there’s more nuance to it than that. Death isn’t the only sad outcome, not by a long shot. Arya being unable to adjust to civilized society and leaving her family once they’re safe would be a good example of that.

Petra: She’s been through a lot of trauma and killed a lot of people cold-heartedly. I don’t know how an ending in which she gets to live happily with her family can be earned.

Luka: To be fair, there’s a middle ground between leaving the known world forever and staying in Winterfell, perfectly adapted to the domesticity of what’s expected of a Lady. She may just turn out to be the strange but beloved relative in the family, you know? The “cool aunt” type who’s still around, who’s still home when it matters but, more often than not, is out hunting or exploring with her direwolf and pack of wolves. That’d also be a fitting end for Arya, in my view. By the way, do you think Nymeria will return?

7x02 Nymeria Arya 2

Petra: It depends on Arya’s fate. I don’t know. I like the bittersweetness of never seeing Nymeria again, but only if it ties in with Arya realizing she can’t stay with her family.

Luka: You’re picturing Nymeria’s return strictly as an endgame scenario, I see. That’s curious. Maybe this is a bit cliché, and one deus ex machina too many, but I’d love it if, just as Arya is about to be killed by a White Walker, Nymeria suddenly jumps in to save her, kind of like the eagles in The Lord of the Rings, or the creatures from the Forbidden Forest coming to the defense of Hogwarts in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows.

Petra: The wolves should play a more proactive role. Including Ghost, hopefully.

Luka: I mean, he has to return, right?

Petra: I’ve got to think he’ll at least have a cameo, just so we are reminded he exists. If there’s a battle in Winterfell, I’d love it if we had literal wolves fighting for it!

706 - Winterfell - Sansa, Arya 1

Luka: Jon has just bent the knee to Daenerys … in more ways than one. [Laughs] So, how do you think the Stark sisters will react to both of those things? We already saw that Sansa wasn’t particularly pleased to hear that Jon had pledged allegiance to Daenerys Targaryen, though of course it had a lot to do with not being consulted first.

Petra: They’re not gonna like it, at least at first. For some reason, when I imagine characters meeting for the first time, I always picture them eating breakfast together. It makes no sense, but I always picture them in a kitchen, at a circular table, eating cereal. So I have this mental image of Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya in that awkward setting, and Sansa or Arya being like “So, you’re my my brother’s new girlfriend?” I don’t think Sansa and Arya are going to be happy that Jon bent the knee to a foreign invader.

Luka: I think Arya will focus on trying to determine whether this Dragon Queen can be trusted with Jon. You know, the archetypal role that is sadly expected of older brothers regarding their sister’s boyfriends: “What are your intentions with my brother?”

Petra: That would be amazing! I would absolutely love that.

Luka: That said, I hope and expect Arya’s and Sansa’s suspicions are eventually defused. Daenerys will prove her worth to both of them in some way or another, I’m sure.

706 - Ship - Daenerys, Jon 1

Petra: When do you think Jon and Daenerys will find out they’re related?

Luka: If the first big meeting between the Starks and Jon and Dany is in White Harbor, there’s good narrative justification for leaving Bran behind — he’s not comfortable traveling, and “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” So the revelation to Jon could be delayed for a short while, even though that’s not my first instinct.

Petra: I’d love it if they found out while they’re spooning in bed, all sweaty. “Hey, I’ve got a message from Bran. Should I read it aloud?” There’s this 80’s fantasy novel, The Mists of Avalon, a retelling of the Arthurian legend from the women’s perspective, in which Morgaine and Arthur find out that they’re half-siblings immediately after they have sex, and it’s just this … chaos. I so want that to be how Jon and Dany find out. [Laughs]

Luka: I hope Sam is the one to break it to Jon. Bran’s not very sensitive right now!

Petra: [Laughs] Can you imagine Bran telling them, given how straightforward he is?

From "The Great Tourney at Harrenhal", an animated short narrated by Ellie Kendrick in character as Meera Reed, as part of the "Histories & Lore" feature in the Season 6 Blu-ray

From “The Great Tourney at Harrenhal”, an animated short narrated by Ellie Kendrick in character as Meera Reed, as part of the “Histories & Lore” feature in the Season 6 Blu-ray

Luka: As of now, we’ve only discussed things that I hope most people agree are reasonable and, to an extent, predictable. Now I’m going to switch gears and mention something I want to happen … even though I don’t particularly expect it too. But here it is: I want Bran to have a vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna meeting for the first time. I want this to happen in the context of Rhaegar being sent by his paranoid, mad father to arrest the Knight of the Laughing Tree, a mystery knight who fought in the Tourney at Harrenhal in defense of Howland Reed. We are told Rhaegar only found the vanishing knight’s shield by a tree but, if the very clever ASOIAF theorists are correct, that knight was in fact Lyanna, and he caught her. This would’ve probably been the first time they met properly, in private, and certainly the first time Rhaegar took notice of Lyanna; at the end of the Tourney, he chose her as the “queen of love and beauty” and gave her a crown of blue winter roses, as Littlefinger recounted to Sansa in season five’s “Sons of the Harpy.” A flashback to that meet-cute would be a great way to give us a sense of what Rhaegar and Lyanna’s relationship was like, beyond the fact that it produced Jon.

Petra: I would love that so much.

Luka: I’m aware that showing the Tourney at Harrenhal itself may be too expensive for a mere flashback that isn’t truly necessary. It’s been set up in the books so we’ll probably get a confirmation in either The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring, but this mystery hasn’t even been established in the show. There’s no real need to introduce it now, other than to contextualize Lyanna and Rhaegar’s relationship. But I still want it to happen!

rhaegar lyanna

Petra: It’s odd to hinge such a major plot point on a relationship we know nothing about. For the poor casual viewers, who haven’t read the books and aren’t part of the fandom hive mind, there was no buildup or explanation for Lyanna and Rhaegar’s romance. I do consider it necessary to show some context about this scandalous love affair.

Luka: I believe we are bound to see Rhaegar and Lyanna again in season eight, as their relationship flourishes. There’s very little doubt about that in my mind. But I’m just not sure whether it will be in the context of the Tourney at Harrenhal or not.

Petra: What other conversation could they have that would be half as interesting? It’s not just the romance. We’d learn a lot about Lyanna if she’s revealed to be this cool mystery knight, and we’d learn a lot about Rhaegar if he decides not to unmask her.

Luka: True! And if they don’t show the tourney proper, it could be an inexpensive scene that contains a lot of character development and context for Jon’s parentage.

1x02 Ned Jon

Luka: Speaking of Jon, how do you think he’ll react to the news? If Daenerys isn’t present when Bran or Sam reveal the truth, do you think Jon will tell Dany immediately?

Petra: They’re in a romantic relationship. I can’t imagine him delaying for very long.

Luka: And Jon is Jon. He’s too honest not to tell the truth, no matter the consequences.

Petra: True. I’m interested to see what strikes him the most: the fact that he is related to Daenerys, or the fact that he’s the heir to the Iron Throne. What do you think?

Luka: Honestly? I’d say neither.

Petra: Oh, of course! It will be the fact that his dad was his uncle and his aunt was his mom, right? I keep forgetting how much more I know than Jon.

Luka: I’m sure Ygritte would agree. [Laughs] Everyone else who learns about this, including Daenerys, will likely focus on Jon’s paternity and what it means politically, but I’d bet that what will strike Jon like lightning will be the identity of his mother, which he always wanted to know; the realization that Ned wasn’t his actual father; and, of course, the bombshell that Ned, Jon’s mentor in honesty, lied to everyone to save his life.

707 - Dragonstone - Jon, Theon 1

Petra: I picture everyone who knows arguing about the political implications, but when they turn to Jon, he’s not there. He’s down in the crypts, looking at Lyanna’s statue!

Luka: He must have passed her statue dozens of times. Now he’ll see it with new eyes. He’ll finally have a tangible connection to his mother. I could see him turning to Ned’s statue, too, and asking, like Luke in The Empire Strikes Back: “Why didn’t you tell me?” I’m sure Ned’s lie to the realm and Jon’s Targaryen nature will haunt him for a while before he can reconcile himself to the truth. I don’t think his conversation with Theon in “The Dragon and the Wolf” was just for Theon’s sake. Jon’s words that Theon can be both a Stark and a Greyjoy will be thrown back at him: “You’re a Stark — and a Targaryen.”

Petra: I’d love that.

Luka: Of course, Jon’s identity crisis may go deeper than that: Ned, whom Jon admired for his honesty and tried to emulate, lied to everyone, including Jon, and that’s likely to shock him to his core, much deeper than his parentage. Here is where Meera could come in, if she returns with her father Howland, the only person currently alive who remembers the events at the Tower of Joy. Maybe Howland will help Jon make sense of Ned’s decision to raise him as a bastard and lie to absolutely everyone about it, particularly since Howland was probably present when Ned made that decision.

Petra: Honestly, I just want to meet Howland Reed. As a book reader, the allure surrounding the guy is reason enough to bring him into the plot. And it could give Meera the opportunity for a more cathartic ending than she got in season seven!

7x07 Ship Daenerys Jon Sex 1

Luka: Let’s talk about this, because they laid it pretty thick: Dany’s so getting pregnant.

Petra: It certainly seems that way. Do you have any thoughts about where this is going?

Luka: Narratively, I see the pregnancy serving two purposes, one that is thematic and I’ll get to when we discuss the ending, and one that’s more plot-relevant: Daenerys getting pregnant will likely expedite their marriage, which has been an unspoken possibility since Jon bent the knee. Though the news that they’re related will surely create some drama, I believe they will still get married, for a number of reasons. For starters, it would legitimize their baby, as Jon would never let his own child grow up a bastard. It might also soothe Northern discontent if Jon marries the foreign Dragon Queen he bent the knee to and goes from being King of the North to King Consort of the Seven Kingdoms, rather than demoting him to Warden of the North. Hell, Jon and Dany could even sort it out in such a way that he may keep his original title too, I’m sure. Of course, this is only important in the long run if both of them survive, which seems unlikely.

7x07 Daenerys Cersei Dragonpit

Petra: Dany’s fate is a bit of an open question for me. It’s interesting they’re building more and more parallels between Cersei and Daenerys: they’ve both lost children; they’re both pregnant by a blood relative; they both have predilections for fire; and they’ve both been denounced as the Mad King’s true successor, by characters and fans alike. So, my predictions for Dany’s and Cersei’s stories are starting to overlap a little bit.

Luka: Do you believe these parallels are there to make the point that “they are not so different after all”? Personally, I see it as a subversion to contrast the characters.

Petra: I don’t know, because this Mad Queen thing with Daenerys needs to pay off in some way. They set it up, then defused it, then set it up again, and then defused it again. Much as I hate the idea of Daenerys becoming a villain, this has to be building to something but, short of tinfoil theories, I can’t think of what, exactly.

Luka: Come on, go crazy! Wear that tin foil hat!

Petra: Well … if you insist! I can imagine Daenerys becoming completely unhinged if she loses all three of her dragons and, in lieu of dragonfire, resorting to wildfire instead. That’d be the ultimate parallel between both her father and Cersei. It’d be interesting if the burnt down King’s Landing throne room from her vision in the House of the Undying was caused by her, instead of Cersei, as the usual theory goes.

Luka: Daenerys could ignite Cersei’s wildfire and destroy the Red Keep, but I can only see it happening unintentionally. Her first instinct has always been to attack King’s Landing with her dragons instead of taking the more indirect approaches that Tyrion suggests, so I can imagine Dany finally succumbing to her worst impulses — which aren’t madness or bloodthirstiness, despite what many might say, but a rigid sense of justice executed with fire and blood. Her intent would be to get rid of Cersei once and for all, but instead the Red Keep and perhaps most or all of the capital blows up by mistake.

Petra: That would be more in keeping with Daenerys as a character. The full-fledged Mad Queen mantle has never made sense for Daenerys, despite the foreshadowing.

7x06 Daenerys looking at Night King Frozen Lake

Petra: I wonder if Dany will be the one to kill the Night King.

Luka: Hmpf… the confrontation between Jon and the Night King has been set up so explicitly, at Hardhome and the Frozen Lake, that I can’t see it not taking place.

Petra: When I try to picture the actual showdown at the end of the series, it feels very conventional to me at this point: Jon kills the Night King in single combat and every White Walker and Wight falls dead, like the Chitauri in The Avengers or the Droid Army in The Phantom Menace. The one thing they could do to change things up would be to have Daenerys kill the Night King instead and perhaps die in the process. It would be poetic if our Fire Queen died from being stabbed through the heart with an ice sword.

cersei1

Luka: If there really needs to be a twist in the end, and I’m not completely sure there does, it could have more to do with the structure of the story than what actually happens. This might be too strange or anti-climactic for some people, but what if Jon and Daenerys defeat the Night King in episode four or five, and only then are they forced to face Cersei? What if the showdown with Cersei is the real climax of the story?

Petra: That’d be very unexpected.

Luka: I get why my suggestion has issues. Unpredictability is fine, but it can go too far. After all, the Scouring of the Shire was cut from Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings for very good reasons. In the books, the sequence made a crucial point but cutting it made structural sense for the film, as the story really was over by then. Even so, I can see Cersei surviving until the end, which I would have never predicted a few years ago.

Petra: What do you think Cersei would do? What’s the climax you have in mind?

Luka: First of all, we’d have a climax focused entirely on human characters in the aftermath of defeating the apocalyptic supernatural threat. As for what Cersei would do, my theories aren’t revolutionary: her madness will have reach such a self-destructive zenith by that point that all of King’s Landing will be in danger, and Jaime will have to kill his sister as he killed the Mad King, perhaps dying in the process. At some point, Sandor will face off against Gregor, who he may defeat using fire, thus overcoming both his fear of fire and the one who instilled that fear in him at the same time. And Daenerys could die around this point too, if she isn’t already dead by the Night King’s hand.

Petra: That’d be great. Despite our conversation last week about the underrated dramatic value of the White Walkers, it would be very Game of Thrones if the great threat is defeated yet the characters still have to deal with their own human shit.

Luka: The last episode of a Game of Thrones season has rarely included the climax — it’s usually in the second to last episode with the finale serving more as a resolution. In this final six-part season that we’ve got, we could have our battle for the fate of humanity in episode five. Then, for the first half of the series finale, Cersei’s story could come to a close, with at least another thirty or forty minutes left for a proper denouement.

Petra: That would be great!

7x05 Cersei Jaime

Petra: I think most people agree about Cersei’s ending: Jaime will kill her. I’ve been trying to think about how the “younger, more beautiful queen” will factor into it. I’d love it if her prophesied bane turns out to be “Brienne the Beauty,” if she’s the one who kills Cersei, perhaps in order to defend Jaime … though that’d compromise the Valonqar prophecy from the books. But Daenerys is the obvious candidate, of course.

Luka: In terms of predicting the end for these characters, Cersei has always been the easiest for us nerds, and I mean that in a good way: Cersei’s story is heading somewhere very particular, and if it’s well executed it’ll be somewhere very dramatically satisfying. It’s a beautifully tragic ending for her, isn’t it? Maybe they’ll surprise us, but if they do, I hope Martin or D&D came up with something just as fitting and emotionally resonant.

Petra: Aside from her ending, how do you think the rest of her story will go?

7x03 Cersei Euron

Luka: Euron will return soon with the Golden Company, because these mercenaries wouldn’t have set them up so explicitly if we weren’t going to see them on the field. There are believable ways for Theon to learn that Euron isn’t heading to the Iron Islands, but I can’t see that confrontation taking place before Cersei gets her shiny new army. Anyway, tragedy aside, I expect it’ll be a very fun season for Cersei. Assuming she loses the baby, she’ll be completely unhinged, vindictive and self-destructive. Moreover, with Jaime gone, she has no calming influences left. The few people still at Cersei’s side will only fuel her fire of madness: her Hand is essentially Doctor Mengele; her protector is a remorseless killing machine who already was a remorseless killing machine before becoming an obedient zombie; and, of course, her suitor and foremost military commander is a psychopathic pirate who happens to be just as mad as her, except in different ways. This Red Keep of Horrors will be a darkly fun watch, while it lasts!

Petra: If we’ve got a few episodes with Euron and Cersei together, and she gives him what he wants, that’s going to be a lot of fun to watch. Just imagine an actual sex scene between those two! I just enjoy watching those maniacs on-screen together.

Luka: I hope they develop a completely twisted, depraved relationship.

702 - Sea Battle - Yara, Theon 2

Luka: Speaking of Euron, how do you think things will go with Theon?

Petra: I’m not completely sure about Theon. His and Yara’s storyline is so divorced from the main plot at this point that I wonder if both of them are going to die. I can’t really see them integrating back into the main plot once Theon saves Yara. If Theon dies and Yara survives, for example, I don’t know what narrative purpose she would serve.

Luka: I believe Yara will be one of the endgame characters who represents the next generation of rulers, the ones who are eager to change things up for their people. Remember, Yara was quite critical of Balon’s pointless Northern conquest, and she agreed to Dany’s terms to refocus the ironborn way of life in a productive direction. Yara could do much good in the world to come, after this near-apocalyptic cataclysm.

Petra: I can see that. I’d like it! I have some ideas about how the rescue mission could go. I’d love it if, when Theon finds Yara, she’s delirious or semi-conscious, uncertain who this guy trying to her rescue is, much like Theon was in season four. So, to assure her that he’s her brother, Theon leans in and says, “Don’t die so far from the sea.”

Luka: That’d be beautiful! Though, to be honest, it could be a bit problematic, because, I don’t know about you, but I’m imagining all of this taking place in a ship, at sea. [Laughs]

Petra: Yeah, me too! [Laughs] I don’t know how they’d make the line make sense, but it’d be nice. Since they’re really emphasizing the parallels between Theon and Yara’s captivity, I’d appreciate it if, assuming they both survive, Yara’s torture has long-term consequences and she has to lean on Theon as much as he leans on her, that they have to help each other. Maybe Euron cuts out her tongue so Theon has to speak for her. I’d find it really moving if these two siblings who couldn’t stand each other in season two conclude the series broken but empathetic, dependent on each other to get by.

Luka: I really like that. I honestly hadn’t even considered the possibility that both would live, but I find your idea to be such a fitting end for them that you may have changed my mind completely. Whether Theon dies in the attempt or not, I do expect him to save Yara and kill Euron. Perhaps the kraken siblings could kill their mad uncle together.

7x03 - Varys, Melisandre Dragonstone

Petra: We know that Melisandre and Varys will die, because Melisandre told us so, but I cannot think of how that will happen for either of them. The only scenario I can cook up for Varys is that he confronts Daenerys, just as she told him to if he ever thinks she’s failing her people in “Stormborn,” but Mad Dany perceives it as betrayal, so she executes him via dragon fire. Now, this far-fetched scenario would depend on Daenerys going “bad” which, as I shall say for the umpteenth time, I do not want to happen.

Luka: I don’t think that’s how it’ll go down but, then again, nothing else has been set up. As for Melisandre, she prophesied she’d re-encounter Arya, who is very ‘murdery’; or the Red Woman could simply die of old age, as she’s supernaturally old and, once she believes she has done her duty to her god, she (or R’hllor) may decide it’s time to rest. Regarding the rest of her story, she went to Volantis and teased her return, and I cannot imagine it won’t be a glorious one, with not only other Red Priests but an army of faithful former slaves to back Daenerys and Jon as the Princess and Prince That Were Promised. In the books, the Red Temple of Volantis has a thousand fire-themed elite slave guards. The Fiery Hand would be quite a sight, even if they’re toned down. It’s funny that all our characters had left Essos behind as of season seven, but now Essos is coming to Westeros, with the Golden Company and whoever Melisandre brings back.

7x06 Daenerys Jon Frozen Lake

Luka: We’ve talked about the major players and their fates, as well as the general course of the plot. So let’s move on to discussing the actual ending! The climax and resolution.

Petra: Daenerys wanting to be the Queen of Westeros for so long only to become Queen of Westeros by the end may seem appropriate, but it could be trite too. That’s why I predicted her death. Jon never wanted to be the king, neither in the North nor of the Seven Kingdoms, so there would be a novelty to it, along with some nice dramatic irony.

Luka: Jon has been all too eager to sacrifice himself for the cause, as we’ve discussed. The signs are clear. Jon and Dany dying as they save the realm together would be fitting. However, you’ve convinced me that a subversion of that could work great: I could see Jon ending up as a reluctant king — perhaps not the kind of feudal king we’ve seen before, but a king nonetheless. Daenerys will probably still die saving the realm in some way or another, though. There is always the possibility that both of them survive and rule together, but it would have to be handled with much care. Endings can still be bittersweet without the characters dying. Both Jon and Dany could live so long as it’s not framed as an ending in which everything is solved by the sole virtue of their rule. That would be too much like The Return of the King, but not the mere fact of them making it through. That wouldn’t doesn’t necessarily make it like Tolkien’s “The correct bloodline has been restored to the monarchy and now there is peace in the realm.”

Petra: Yeah, I’d like the show to avoid a The Return of the King scenario. What about their child together, though? Do you think he or she has any future?

Tyrion and Daenerys Beyond the Wall

Luka: I could see the baby becoming a symbol for the next generation — the generation that, after this hard-won War for the Dawn, will get to actually live the “dream of spring.”

Petra: To be honest, I hadn’t even considered the baby coming to term. I like what you said about it becoming a symbol for a brighter future. That could be a cathartic ending. Still, a Targaryen heir — whether it’s Jon, Dany or their baby — surviving this story throws a wrench into our idea that we’ll see the development of a proto-democratic system inspired by the Night’s Watch and the ironborn in which the leader is elected, as Tyrion suggested in “Beyond the Wall.” I believe that will develop due to a lack of alternatives, not because of the goodness of the characters’ hearts.

Luka: I mean, I know you’re from the United States, which is a republic, but that’s not the only form of democracy. There are democracies with kings! I live in one!

Petra: I KNOW THAT!

Luka: [Laughs] My point is, regardless of whether the Iron Throne survives or not, and it probably won’t, I see Westeros maintaining its monarchy, whether it’s elective or it remains hereditary, with the Hand as the one who’s elected instead. Or, if even that position remains appointed, an alternative step towards the people’s representation could be to have a new kind of Small Council that isn’t so small anymore and is elected in some direct or indirect way — essentially, a proto-democratic parliament.

6x10 Jon King in the North

Luka: As for why I believe Westeros will continue being a monarchy in some form, regardless of the great political changes I expect, I just think it’s more realistic. If in this new system there isn’t a king at the center, at least nominally, every ambitious lordling with a single drop of Targaryen or Baratheon blood will fight for his flimsy claim to the throne, and the people will follow, because monarchy is the only system they know.

Petra: Oh, that’s true. There has to be a monarch, at least at first, to ensure stability. Still, why would the new monarch and their council revolutionize the rest of the system if they don’t have to? I know Dany wants to break the wheel, but what is the incentive for a completely new form of government that is untested on such a huge scale?

Luka: I get that. Despite the shitty “Great man theory” of history, which purports that it’s influential individuals who shape history, that’s not really how the world works. It’s an attractive idea, because it makes for satisfying stories, but these great societal developments usually happen because the environment — nature, technology, previous societal shifts — finally allow for it, and there’s someone there to take advantage of it. But I would argue there is plenty of environmental incentive for political change: the Seven Kingdoms will have just gone through a continental war and a near-apocalyptic conflict; half the Great Noble Houses are extinct, so if there is a time to meddle with the estates of the realm, it’s now; two new cultures have been introduced into the kingdoms, both of which have rather fluid notions of leadership compared to Westeros; the religious center of the country has been wiped off the map just as a new religion is making strides, in particular when Melisandre returns with what I’m sure will be an army of believers; and, of course, at the center of it all you have a monarch who wants to break the chain of injustice. Even if Dany isn’t sure about how she’ll go about it, and even if she dies, which seems likely, there are very clever people around her who will be willing and able to follow through with her dream in these very special circumstances.

702 - Dragonstone - Daenerys, Tyrion, Yara, Ellaria 1

Luka: Who do you think these clever people will be? When you picture one of the last shots as humanity prepares to move forward, who do you imagine sitting at the table?

Petra: Inexplicably, Missandei and Grey Worm are still there, in my mind. Yara and Theon, whichever one survives, if either of them do. I’m confident about Tyrion, too.

Luka: And Sam, of course, for reasons not too dissimilar to Tyrion. I would also add Sansa, for sure, even if she physically plans to stay up North ruling it.

Petra: Those last three —Tyrion, Sam and Sansa —are the only ones I’m 100% positive will survive. I like the idea of the cripples, bastards, and broken things being all there.

Luka: Exactly! The next generation of rulers will be the unlikeliest of people; in a way, those who didn’t “play the game of thrones,” or at least not in the same way the likes of Cersei or Littlefinger would (and did) describe it. It will be the Unlikely Small Council!

Petra: Yeah. I agree.

Luka: Just as the cripples, bastards, and broken things who survived the winds of winter prepare to become the generation of rulers who will break the wheel, they look back on all that was lost and look forward to the dream of spring. That is an ending.

Wall - Beyond Weirwood 6x05 (1)

227 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I’ve been waiting for such a thread. I’ve been meaning to write up my own story prediction (hopeful outline) for the final season… Unfortunately I haven’t yet. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    2. Dhruv,

      We didn’t mention Sansa’s reunion with Sandor and Tyrion, but I’m intrigued by how that will go, especially with her ex-husband. I’d like Tyrion to be pleased about how Sansa turned out, as she was when Jon mentioned Sansa is starting to show how clever she is; as for Sansa’s reaction to Tyrion, I’m not sure. She did like him, so she’ll be happy enough he’s alive and in a better place mentally (i.e. less drunk), but beyond that, no idea.

        Quote  Reply

    3. A minor quibble, but The Night King does not look scary. He looks like Jimmy Durante. I really hope they go back to the season 5 style more than the seasons 6-7 style.

      Carry on…

        Quote  Reply

    4. I don’t envy the writers in trying to structure the arrival of Jon and Dany at Winterfell that will presumably happen in the premiere, because there are so many character interactions and exchanges of information and reactions to deal with in a short span.

      As far as the overall structure of the season, there are, to my mind, two ways it could play out: the first would be that Jaime’s bringing word of Cersei’s intended treachery leads to some of the main cast going to deal with her immediately, and this plot runs parallel with the WW plot; the second is, as discussed in this article, the “Scouring of the Shire” option. There are pros and cons to each; the former, for instance, gives Cersei more to do through the season, whereas in the latter her main role would only be at the end.

      As far as the relation between the impending birth of Miracle Baby and the “breaking the wheel” stuff, the scene where Tyrion raises the succession issue is brought up, in my view, to remind people of Dany’s current heirlessness, a situation that will soon be remedied. There’s not going to be any birth of democracy or parliament; there’s no setup for that in either medium, particularly in the books, since “breaking the wheel” is a show-only thing. Dany will instead usher in a purer autocracy with a much stronger central government and weaker nobles, which was the common feature of European states progressing out of feudalism.

        Quote  Reply

    5. My theory is that the Night King won’t be killed in a duel as such, rather they will have to find a way to remove the dragonglass lodged in his heart. What I am interested in is Bran’s role in the war for the dawn. Dany will ride her dragon, Jon will duel with more white walkers or maybe even ride Rhaegal, what is Bran’s contribution? I hope he is the one who finds the way to end the White Walker threat, by finding out how they were defeated in the last Long Night. And maybe also find out why they were not completely successful in defeating them, since they have eventually come back. I also like the theory of him warging into undead Viserion, thereby incapacitating the Night King, but I am not sure how likely this is.

      As much as I would love to see it, I really doubt there will be a flashback to the tourney if Harrenhal, or even any flashback of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I feel like their purpose on the show is done.

        Quote  Reply

    6. Mr Derp:
      A minor quibble, but The Night King does not look scary.He looks like Jimmy Durante.I really hope they go back to the season 5 style more than the seasons 6-7 style.

      Carry on…

      HAHA!!!
      I very much agree though. There have many comments that Brake’s version was much more menacing than Furdik’s. Personally I see Furdik’s as almost emotionless, like “ho hum, I’m going to do (this) now.” Brake looked angry and confidently evil.

        Quote  Reply

    7. Great discussion once again. I loved your talking about what happens next after the conflict with the White Walkers and Cersei.

      Luka, I’m glad you brought up – and disagreed with – the “great men” theory of history, because, as you say, it’s not really the way things work in real life, but it is the way things work in fantasy so frequently (like Aragorn returning to be king and everything is better). Like you say, I think enough big-picture events have happened that the society in general is ready for a somewhat different form of governance. Robert’s Rebellion, the War of Five Kings, and the war between Cersei and Daenerys are all devastating consequences of the system that Aegon set-up, and the line of succession in particular. I can see future Westerosi historians seeing the “breaking of the wheel” as the inevitable consequence of the increased bloodshed caused by these rightful-ruler disputes.

      I’m not exactly sure what that new system will look like. Obviously if they start splitting Westeros into multi-member districts elected through proportional representation that would be a bit of a stretch. I honestly don’t see legislative elections coming so soon after a monarchy. I like your idea of a Hand being elected, even if the monarch is still there (like a Prime Minister). However, Tyrion’s suggestions in “Beyond the Wall” (which I think is the setup for what happens at the end of the series) was specifically how to choose a successor to Daenerys, i.e. getting rid of the hereditary line of succession. So I actually think a more democratic selection of the “monarch” is fairly likely.

      Your discussion and the thoughts it brought up made me look at Tyrion’s final moment of Season 7 a bit differently. I was a bit confused (though not in a bad way) as to why he would find the pairing of Jon and Dany so concerning, even if he would rather this pairing was a more conscious political choice. I think now, looking back, that Tyrion was kind of counting on there not being a son or daughter to succeed Daenerys, and that she would rule as a kind of Elizabeth I – unmarried and beholden to no ancient, noble house. For him, a new, democratic way of choosing a leader would have made the war he’s fighting in (against his own people) worth the devastating loss of life it has caused. If Dany gets married and plans to have children, or gets pregnant, he worries that she will refuse to accept his proposed plans in favor of ensuring her son or daughter takes the throne after her. In fact, if Dany gets pregnant, I think that does put his plans for a more democratic system in serious jeopardy. Maybe that’s why he’s concerned.

      This is already long, but my prediction, considering all of this, is that Daenerys will successfully conquer Westeros (I don’t see her going mad, per se, but I do think it is possible that she will do something very violent and problematic to finally win). However, I think her and her unborn child will both die during the season, and Jon will be in a position to take the throne that is his by right (according to the rules of succession). But he, I think, is far more likely to incorporate Tyrion’s plans for electing the ruler than Dany would be, and will ultimately reject the throne, maybe even melt it down (one Aegon Targaryen creates the Iron Throne and “the wheel” that goes with it; another Aegon Targaryen breaks down both). Then I think a “House of Lords” will elect their next ruler, kinda like the Lord Commander in the Night’s Watch, and Sansa ends up being elected. That way, a “queen younger and more beautiful” than Cersei replaces her, as the prophecy suggests, without completely undercutting all of this buildup to Jon being the rightful heir to the throne. His inheritance is important to the story, but not because he will be the savior ruling at the end like Aragorn, but only so that he can reject it and help form a new world. (I’m probably wrong though).

        Quote  Reply

    8. Luka Nieto,

      Re: Sansa’s reaction to Tyrion. She seemed to still think positively of him in “Stormborn,” but the big elephant in the room from my perspective is that Tyrion killed Shae, one of the only friends Sansa had in King’s Landing. I don’t know how Sansa would find out about that, other than Tyrion confessing it (and I’m not sure why he would), but I would appreciate him being called out on that, by far the worst thing he has done in the show, and Sansa is one of the few who could/would.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Great discussion.

      I personally hope we don’t get a one on one fight between Jon and the Night King. I understand it has been set up, but it feels unrealistic at this point that Jon could beat the Night King if he is strong enough to throw an ice javlin and kill a dragon. If the Night King was truly the weapon the Children developed to fight humanity, really makes no sense for a single man to be able to defeat him. I would prefer something where it literally took all the fire power humanity had to defeat the guy. Something like Bran taking back control of Viserion and having three dragons rain hell fire on him plus some Lord of Light magic by Mel.

      I would like some ending also where Dany on the throne recognizes that there is no breaking the wheel. The best she can do is make some reforms but that human nature will continue to be what it is and for good government to continue it will depend on future generations.

      Agree with you sean C. A more centralized less feudal state makes more sense than democracy from a historical perspective. Democracy feels too much like a fairy tell everything was perfect ending.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Tyrion will die guys, SORRY.

      House Lannister has to go down in History, Tywin´s legacy a Lie. That is the point of Castamere, that the Lannisters will die like the Reynes that defiled their rule. Lannisters defiled and betrayed the Targs and they will die.

      I bet you that this will happen:

      Jaime and Brienne will die fighting the WW- they have Valyrian Steel Swords after all, so it stands to reason Jon Snow will use those warriors to kill the White Walkers, while the rest will use Dragonglass.

      Their swords will return to House Stark.

      I bet you also the War for the Dawn ends by epidsode 4- Daenerys and Drogon kill Viserion- NK has to go down and face Jon Snow, who slays him end of episode 4 .

      Bittersweet: mankind was saved, but not as united front. They still have to go South so that not all that they had fight for is lost in the hands of Cersei and Euron.

      Qyburn has had access to wights; An Army is marching NORTH.

      Arya wears Jaimes mask and goes to kill Cersei and end the war; she was pissed she had the chance of asking for Tywin Lannsiter and end the war and she did not. She will not do it a second time.

      There she will see that Cersei has become a shadow of herself; Euron sits on the Iron Throne. It is a mercy kill in the end, and Cersei gets actually happy Jaime is doing it, except is not Jaime…

      The vision of the lone dragon flying over Kings Landing is Daenerys riding Drogon; Drogo would come back for her, as he was in life, the day she bears a living child. Drogo is inside Drogon. No other man will come after Jon Snow for Daenerys; she will be ” married” to her dragon forever, raising the kid.

      ** takes off tinfoil hat**

        Quote  Reply

    11. Sean C.: There’s not going to be any birth of democracy or parliament; there’s no setup for that in either medium, particularly in the books, since “breaking the wheel” is a show-only thing. Dany will instead usher in a purer autocracy with a much stronger central government and weaker nobles, which was the common feature of European states progressing out of feudalism.

      House Monty: Agree with you sean C. A more centralized less feudal state makes more sense than democracy from a historical perspective. Democracy feels too much like a fairy tell everything was perfect ending.

      Whenever the issue of a step towards a more representative system of government is brought up, some people always misunderstand it this way. I think we were pretty specific: we aren’t talking about a proper democracy (though we have thousands of years of history with systems that have been called democratic.) Yes, obviously, neither Petra nor I expect elected representatives throughout the land and a separation of powers. I explicitly said the depowerement of the nobility will allow for a central enlightened king who seeks to represent more of the people and not just his feudal lordlings, perhaps via some sort of elected position or body. Elective monarchies exist (which is what Tyrion suggested.) Or maybe the “Prime Minister” could be elected, or the ruling Council. Doesn’t really seem too dissimilar to what Sean C. said, doesn’t it? So what is the issue here? It may be a matter of semantics. “Democracy” can mean many things, though I should add that we didn’t even venture that far — we just called it a proto-democratic system.

        Quote  Reply

    12. Hodor Targaryen,

      Shae deserved every bit of that. Tyrion shouldn’t feel badly in any way, shape, or form. Shae actually reached for a knife to try and kill Tyrion before he did anything to her. Not to mention that she betrayed him in almost every possible way.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Varys will probably travel to King’s Landing similar to what Tyrion did in season 7 in order to either broker a deal with Cersei or arrange a meeting. He will never come back. That’s the vague prediction I have for how/why Varys will die.

      Either that, or he’ll die with magic in some way, since he’s all bout hating on that magic, but Im not sure in what specific way this would happen.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Totally agree with Clob and Mr Derp re: the new NK, above: I generally don’t like dissing the production-side of the show as the hard graft of a lot of talented sfx crew goes into it. But that shot really showcases how awfully fake and unconvincing the new NK makeup looks on screen.

      Basically at a loss at this point to understand how the showrunners and/or VFX guys have seemingly developed a blind spot re: the overall drop in quality from his look in season 5. It’s just plain … weird! Something to do with the nose/mouth giving it a very artificial rubber Halloween mask look. Either that or just emphatic proof that two different actors wearing the same prosthetic makeup can give wildly varying results!

      They’ll never bring back Brake as the increased physical performance a trained stuntman like Furdik can provide is pretty much where the role is going, heading into the endgame

      But if they DON’T make some adjustments? Or maybe just keep Furdik for body/longshots and splice in someone else for the closeups that’ll doubtless become more crucial in S8? Honestly, it’s started to make me think this could be the one recasting to really hurt the show, longterm.

      Much as I wanted to see her, it makes me glad they didn’t do Stoneheart. There’s a real uneven quality with the undead/Wights on GOT (e.g: dragonpit = amazing.)

      But the most important one of all currently looks as threatening as Squidward from Spongebob Squarepants …

      https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ILlQ709WfPo/hqdefault.jpg

        Quote  Reply

    15. Luka Nieto,

      But if you give the nobles the power to elect the king, the result will not be a government that meaningfully reforms Westeros, because the first and most important target of any such reform would be the privileges of the nobles. The landed elite has always been the most reactionary conservative force in the politics of European states until the industrial revolution rendered them essentially irrelevant (see, variously, the House of Lords in the UK; the First Estate in France; the boyars in Russia; the Junkers in Prussia/Germany).

      That’s what GRRM himself has depicted, in the reign of Aegon V, who implemented various pro-smallfolk policies only to see them dismantled by his successors to please the angry nobility. Or with Jaehaerys I’s abolition of prima nocta in the face of noble opposition. Making the Crown answerable to the nobles isn’t the sort of reform GRRM is building to.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Hodor Targaryen,

      Why would Sansa be elected as the ruler of Westeros? What has she done for the realm that would make the Lords select a 17 year old teenager to rule over the entire continent? Her being accepted in the North is understandable, she is the eldest true born Stark and the Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years. But even this acceptance is not something that she should be complacent about honestly, given the extreme fickle nature that the northern Lords have exhibited so far. She was absolutely right in comparing them to weathervanes.
      Her getting elected to rule all of Westeros would be an eye roll worthy ending, for me at least. I can see her on the small council, but not as a ruler. Personally, I think she will end up ruling the North as the Stark in Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Luka Nieto,

      I didn’t mean what i said as a criticism of the proto democracy idea. I could see moves toward having a parliament – something which started in England before 1500 – and a more centralized state. I just think the evolution will be more going from 1300s system of gov to 1500s and not 1300s to 1800s.

        Quote  Reply

    18. Sean C.: Making the Crown answerable to the nobles isn’t the sort of reform GRRM is building to.

      Riiight. I agree! That’s why I said exactly the following in the dialogue:

      Half the Great Noble Houses are extinct, so if there is a time to meddle with the estates of the realm, it’s now.

      House Monty: Agree. If breaking the wheel means anything it means reducing the power of the nobility.

      Which is what I said in the dialogue 😉

      It got cut in the edit, but I told Petra Daenerys sounds a lot like an enlightened despot, except she does want a little bit more direct involvement of the people. Yes, Sean C., “breaking the wheel” is just from the show … but it IS in the show, and it’s brought up repeatedly; you can’t just ignore it because you don’t like it. You always say there’s no setup, despite all evidence to the contrary. If something like this happens, I wonder if you’ll still maintain that position.

      An argument could be made that enlightened absolutism eventually brought about democratic movements, very much unwittingly; I could see something like this happening, except without the cluelessness, with a bit more intent.

        Quote  Reply

    19. The fake plots for season 8 end with Tyrion as a world weary regent caring a for a beautiful young Queen called Lyanna Targaryen.

      Tyrion is discussing her father and mother and how they loved one another and how they gave their lives in the great war.

      The thought if a scene of the dwarf holding the little girl’s hand as they walk out of the throne room together would be the most fittingly bittersweet ending.

      So at least on this, I hope the fake plots aren’t too off the mark.

      The parallels between Dany and Cesei are very obvious – both are pregnant, but where as one will not have a child and will die in madness and rage at the world, the other will bare a child and die protecting it and the world it will live in.

        Quote  Reply

    20. Luka Nieto,

      I like the idea of Dany as enlightened despot. Feels very historically grounded and also true to her character. She saved the world and nudged Westeros in a positive direction but everything is not perfect.

        Quote  Reply

    21. I have just posted a really long prediction post in the White Walkers thread.

      About the specific stuff mentioned in this post:
      Beric and Tormund: Beric will die, he’ll be the first casualty next season. Tormund will live. (The Karstark/Umber kiddos won’t show up again.)
      Jaime: He’s already gotten ‘amnesty’ due to the ceasefire, didn’t he? I dunno, I’m not really interested in seeing a court over him. Some conversations with Bran would be nice, though.
      As far as I’m concerned, his main purpose now is to provide Brienne with a child and then killing Cersei.
      Arya: She’ll live, as a ‘cool aunt’ and in a casual relationship with Gendry.
      The direwolves: We won’t see Nymeria again. Ghost is what will remain after Jon once he’s heroically dead.
      The Starks (and Sam) meeting Dany: I can see that being played a bit soap opera-ish. Dany and Jon arrive in Winterfell, no one likes Dany much! Then, it turns out that they are OK with her being the Queen, things are just weird because they know she and Jon are related and yet having sex together.
      Rhaegar and Lyanna: I want the show to make clear that Rhaegar was a religious fanatic, and Jon was specifically conceived to fulfil a prophecy.
      Dany getting pregnant: Boooring. A strong realm filled with the right people in power should be her and Jon’s child. Haven’t we learned enough that even if the parent is a good ruler, the child doesn’t have to be? You can’t trust genetic inheritance with the fate of an entire country!
      Dany’s fate: My personal preference is for her to, once she makes sure the fate of the realm is in good hands, take Drogon and ride off into the sunset, spawning a myth of a Once and Future Queen. In reality, going to the ruins of Valyria to serve a Yoda-in-Dagobah role in the sequel.
      Jon’s fate: I’d love this to be a ‘there must always be a Lich King’ type of stuff. Basically, he becomes the next Night King, with Bran returning to the trees to watch over him and await the next incarnation (of himself and Jon).
      Cersei’s fate: She should die at around the same time as Jon and Dany do their heroic thing. Jaime could leave Dany’s camp to return to King’s Landing to kill her at some point. Preferably taking the Hound with himself for the Bowl.
      Theon and Yara: I’d like both of them to live. No predictions, though.
      Preferred denouement: The latter half of the last episode is some sort of a Continental Congress. The result is a parliament, a federal army (no more wars between great lords!), and some sort of a founding document. Dany lives but leaves Westeros, Jon is already either dead or the new Night King. I still don’t care about their genes.

        Quote  Reply

    22. House Monty,

      Right! I still believe she will die, but also that her successors will follow on her footsteps — that is, that they will break the wheel, by leaving feudalism behind, actually spending resources in taking care of the smallfolk, and giving them a voice in government, as she did in Meereen with the former slaves.

      Yaga: The result is a parliament, a federal army (no more wars between great lords!), and some sort of a founding document.

      I like the sound of that. I guess Joffrey was right after all, about the one army 😛

        Quote  Reply

    23. Luka Nieto,

      I am holding out hope she dies in old age. A bias toward what I want to happen – more of an Augustus end than a Moses end for her – and George’s original outline still give me hope.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Creating change in the structure of Westerosi government isn’t really going to be the hard part when all is said and done.

      ENFORCING the change and new laws will be the hard part.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Mr Derp,

      This is the main reason i could see the dragons surviving. There is no changing the structure of the government if the crown is not overwhelmingly powerful vis a vis the nobility. Right now the only place i see that power coming from is dragons.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Remember that D & D said it would be a bittersweet ending. If Jon and Dany survive, it won’t be that bitter and if they’re both dead with Cersei on the throne, there’s nothing sweet.

      I think that Jon and Dany will die, possibly following the pattern set within the myth. They both fight fight the Night King and can’t damage him. Accidentally, Jon stabs Dany and then the sword works. Jon does the deed and then decides to take off and not return. Either that, or he is so badly wounded he dies.

      Cersei has been killed and I think it is by Arya who gets to see her pretending to be someone else. Sandor has her back on this, quietly, and has the CleganeBowl.

      As for Varys dying, well, he is Westeros. Where else would he die? But after setting up a scene like that, he probably will be gone.

      I think Sansa will raise the Targaryan baby, which is her cousin and Tyrion will be there and they get together.

      Jaime and Brienne actually have sex and then die fighting next to each other.

      Sort of a Candide ending. The hero warriors are dead and the rest carry on.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Violator,

      Even though they’re fake plots, I suspect the basic framework of these S8 storylines will be close to what actually happens in the show. I look forward to reading the online meltdowns and rants if any fake plot concepts appear in the final season. 🙂

      About Arya’s ultimate fate, I think she’ll kill Cersei as a Faceless Man assignment using Jaime’s face. Afterward, Arya will be killed by the FM as a penalty for using the skills on personal revenge (the Frey massacre).

      The last shot of Arya is Jaqen placing Arya’s face in the Hall of Faces to join all the other faces that will be used by other FM. Arya Stark is finally now a girl who has become No One.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Rabelais: Remember that D & D said it would be a bittersweet ending. If Jon and Dany survive, it won’t be that bitter and if they’re both dead with Cersei on the throne, there’s nothing sweet.

      Death isn’t the only way to make a story bitter. That’s too black-and-white. Certain ways of surviving can be much sadder than death. That said, I agree it’s unlikely that both Jon and Daenerys survive. But that’s because self-sacrifice is a part of their stories, not because that outcome would be “too sweet.”

        Quote  Reply

    29. Mr Derp,

      You might feel that way, but I doubt Sansa does, and I actually doubt Tyrion does either. It would be an interesting interaction is what I’m saying.

      And, I dunno, it’s not like he killed an innocent, but strangling her to death (and continuing to do so after she was disarmed) is at least in the grey area morally. I don’t think it was portrayed as completely self-defense. It started that way but then his anger took over. Plus, he must have known Shae was intimidated into testifying – in fact, he alluded to it in the S7 finale.

        Quote  Reply

    30. It might also soothe Northern discontent if Jon marries the foreign Dragon Queen he bent the knee to and goes from being King of the North to King Consort of the Seven Kingdoms, rather than demoting him to Warden of the North.

      The only way that works is if they never find out about his parentage.

      His parentage undermines his right to have ever ruled The North in the first place. He’s a Targaryen. Marrying another Targaryen would surely just exacerbate Northern discontent.

      Once he realises he’s a Targaryen he’ll surely do the honourable thing and acknowledge that The North belongs to Sansa.

      If he does end up marrying Daenerys then he’ll do so as a Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne, and The North should decide whether or not to bend the knee.

      If Jon remains King or Warden of the North after his parentage is revealed then I’ll be pretty disappointed with the show. It doesn’t make sense according to the characterisation of Jon or The North.

        Quote  Reply

    31. So many ideas on what could happen in the final season, I’ll only list a few. I really hope Cersei is dealt with first. With Dany and Jon, I feel like one of the two will die. I still can’t decide which one but if Dany is pregnant then there is a very good chance it could be her. Jaimie will also probably die in Brienne’s arms per his comment a few seasons back. Either the Night King will be killed once and for all or his numbers go down drastically and the wall gets rebuilt with him on the other side (I’m hoping for the prior). After it’s all over Arya will sail west of westeros and Tyrion will have his vineyard and will finally finish telling that one joke. Great read by the way!

        Quote  Reply

    32. Luka Nieto,

      Luka Nieto:
      Damien,

      They changed actors. It’s that simple. People really should move on…

      Thanks for the condescending reply, but others have noted the poor quality of the prosthetics work and him looking faker than before, irrespective of the actor change – a fact I already referenced so didn’t need to be reminded.

      Sarcasm and veiled accusations of immaturity in not moving on don’t make for great counter arguments, unfortunately.

      Will the production give a shit? No.

      Will I lose sleep about it? No. :^)

        Quote  Reply

    33. Mr Derp,

      Really? I think if anything she will relate to Share in that situation. th ey were both women in vulnerable positions having to make tough choices to survive. And she may also understand Shae’s anger at Tyrion for being discarded like a used object (Not saying that’s what happened, but Shae thought it was).

      It kinda depends on how Tyrion tells Sansa (if he even does). If he just says “She grabbed a knife so I killed her before she killed me” Sansa might be sad but not angry with Tyrion. But if he admits that part of killing her was because she testified against him, and because she was fucking his dad, then I don’t think she will be very sympathetic.

      No matter what, though, I would imagine her feelings towards Tyrion would get complicated, at least, knowing he killed one of her only true friends. If if she understands why he did it, I think she would have a hard time seeing him the same way as she did. A lot of interesting drama to mine there, so I hope something happens.

        Quote  Reply

    34. We have six episodes left. Six. Six. There is no way we will see more of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And, honestly, who cares. The average (meaning non nerd) viewer knows that he was the crown prince, met Lyanna at a tournament, got smitten by her as she by him, obviously found a way to keep in touch and decided to elope. What is more to know?
      And I don’t think we will be seeing the Reeds either. But I am not absolute about that.
      Jon will not care about the Iron Throne, but will mind the blood relation… until the pregnancy revelation comes along and he lets go.
      I do not see Daenerys dying and, honestly, I don’t understand this whole Mad Queen hypothesis. I never saw her as mad. She made some poor choices, but mad? She is not dying because a) she has to give birth b) try killing your female lead and keep the male alive and kicking. The audience will skin you alive.
      Plus, Daenerys’ purpose was to get to the Iron Throne. Jon’s was bringing Dawn. He does not need to survive to the end to do that. Still, I love him. You love him. Everybody loves him. He is not dying. This will be a conventional ending.
      Jaime will kick the bucket though. He will die in the arms of the woman he loves, but hopefully he will complete his redemption and well, just live a little happiness before. Yes, I totally ship that.
      Beric and Tormund won’t die so soon. Beric was brought back six times, dammit. I mean he must have a reason to be there. Do something great before dying. Standing on the Wall watching an ice dragon is not something great. So he will go on until he saves Jon’s life or something.
      Tormund is the only wildling we know. He may still die, but not yet.
      I hope the Hound does not die.
      Bronn will. And Varys. And of course Melisandre. I hope ser Davos stays alive. He doesn’t do much, but we all love him.
      I do not care if all the Dothraki disappear from the face of the earth.
      Speaking of faces, I would like to see the Faceless Men again. Though there would be absolutely no reason for that.

      Now, about strategy: if I were Jon, instead of reinforcing the Umbers and the Karstarks, I would have all houses abandon their castles taking their supplies, send the elderly, the sick and the young children to Bear Island (the wights don’t swim), and gather all my forces for a big deciding battle at Winterfell. Short of like Marathon. Or Thermopylae, but hopefully with a better ending. I can’t see the point in dividing forces in small castles allover.
      And if I were the Night King, I would just take my dragon, burn (or freeze) down every living soul south of the Wall and be quick about it. It’s a good thing the Night King will not prove himself a much better strategist than Jon et Co.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Hodor Targaryen,

      I’m typing while at work, so I don’t really have the time to counter any points right now. I just don’t see any potential for drama there. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree and there’s no shame in that 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    36. I predict a scene in the great hall of Winterfell. Dany is seated as a guest, the mood is apprehensive. Ghost who is sitting at Jons side quietly gets up and walks over and lies down beside her and all the lords and ladies of the great houses of the north decide, well she’s ok then.

        Quote  Reply

    37. i dont get this nissa nissa obsession and why so many people think it needs repeating in the show – has nissa nissa ever even been mentioned??
      . i doubt that john or anyone is going to forge a sword multiple times, and i very much doubt that anyone will get stabbed through the heart with it to make ‘lightbringer’

      if lightbringer is going to be in the show, it will be an existing sword, probably heartsbane. maybe the name is a clue

        Quote  Reply

    38. How come the bittersweet bit begins and ends at Dany & Jon for so many? No doubt they are the biggest characters but they aren’t the only main characters let alone majors. The Stark siblings and Lannister siblings are titanic characters in their own right who will very much define what the ending feels like. You can have both D and J die or live and still have the phase hold true.

      Hell…. technically speaking Bran is the biggest character…

        Quote  Reply

    39. NK will be defeated at Winterfell, and Bran will then give it the appropriate name “Winterfell” in one of his time travels.

      Jon will either die saving everyone, or BECOME the Night King and lead the dead away.

      Dany will survive and rule. They spent too much time bringing all the good guys to her side to have her die or turn mad.

      Baby will be Eddard Targaryen, future king.

      Sansa will rule the north. Arya will disappear into the great unknown. Cersei will be killed by Jaime.

        Quote  Reply

    40. LastKiss,

      I am in agreement with you. I find the Nissa Nissa stuff to be kind of silly, like too silly to actually verbalize. Hopefully a character won’t have to die just to create some ultimate sword. It sounds like 12 year old fan fiction to me, but meh, everyone’s different.

      It’s like the Sword of 1,000 Truths in World of Warcraft or something.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Luka Nieto:
      Dhruv,

      We didn’t mention Sansa’s reunion with Sandor and Tyrion, but I’m intrigued by how that will go, especially with her ex-husband. I’d like Tyrion to be pleased about how Sansa turned out, as she was when Jon mentioned Sansa is starting to show how clever she is; as for Sansa’s reaction to Tyrion, I’m not sure. She did like him, so she’ll be happy enough he’s alive and in a better place mentally (i.e. less drunk), but beyond that, no idea.

      I just happened to rewatch ep4 of season 2, where Sansa, after being beaten and publicly humiliated by Meryn Trant is asked by Tyrion whether she would like to end her engagement to Joffrey; wherupon Sansa replies cooly that she is loyal to her beloved Joffrey and Tyrion says “lady Stark, you might survive us after all”. Well, I expect she will (and what a subtle foreshadowing).

        Quote  Reply

    42. Sean C.:
      I don’t envy the writers in trying to structure the arrival of Jon and Dany at Winterfell that will presumably happen in the premiere, because there are so many character interactions and exchanges of information and reactions to deal with in a short span.

      As far as the overall structure of the season, there are, to my mind, two ways it could play out:the first would be that Jaime’s bringing word of Cersei’s intended treachery leads to some of the main cast going to deal with her immediately, and this plot runs parallel with the WW plot; the second is, as discussed in this article, the “Scouring of the Shire” option.There are pros and cons to each; the former, for instance, gives Cersei more to do through the season, whereas in the latter her main role would only be at the end.

      As far as the relation between the impending birth of Miracle Baby and the “breaking the wheel” stuff, the scene where Tyrion raises the succession issue is brought up, in my view, to remind people of Dany’s current heirlessness, a situation that will soon be remedied.There’s not going to be any birth of democracy or parliament; there’s no setup for that in either medium, particularly in the books, since “breaking the wheel” is a show-only thing.Dany will instead usher in a purer autocracy with a much stronger central government and weaker nobles, which was the common feature of European states progressing out of feudalism.

      Precisely. You don’t get to go from feudalistic Middle Ages to modern democracy, or even parliamentary monarchy. You have to pass by the absolute monarch first. The “Roi Soleil” period. Or at least the enlightened despot. I can very easily picture Daenerys as Catherine the Great.
      Although I have trouble seeing Jon as Louis XIV. It must be the tights. Or the wig.

        Quote  Reply

    43. I am thinking White Walker aspect ends in episode 2 or 3 at the latest, with the remaining episodes focusing on the Iron Throne. I mean how many episodes can focus on the White Walkers. Jon is not going to sit around and wait for them, so the battle has to be early.

        Quote  Reply

    44. I enjoyed the conversation and even though I have not read the comments yet, I must add Sir Davos to the list of small council representitives

        Quote  Reply

    45. Making the 8:
      I enjoyed the conversation and even though I have not read the comments yet, I must add Sir Davos to the list of small council representitives

      Shit, of course. I don’t know how I forgot about one of my faves. Davos, yes!

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Uh… Jon’s a Stark too, on his mother’s side. Of course, Bran, Sansa, and Arya would be first in the line of succession (in that order,) because they are Starks by Ned, but the Northern Lords already chose Jon, who they thought was a bastard, as King in the North, even though Sansa was there too; and she accepted it, too. As for Bran and Arya, they don’t want to rule; Bran said as much, and I hope we can agree about Arya. So I don’t see the problem here.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Mr Derp,

      Yes well… I have decided to rewatch the whole series up to now – I will only make an exception for Theon’s torture and Oberyn’s death. I will NEVER watch that again!!

        Quote  Reply

    47. Damien: Thanks for the condescending reply, but others have noted the poor quality of the prosthetics work and him looking faker than before

      The prosthetics actually look much better than they did back in season five, and certainly season four (where the Night King looked the fakest.) We can argue about the VFX, though; his face is very much edited with CG, it’s not just prosthetics. All the shadings and reflections and translucency that confer that icy quality to his face are 100% post-production. Maybe it just looks worse because we’ve seen more of him. It’s a very difficult effect to master.

      Also, the original actor’s slimmer and more skeletal features were better for the prosthetics and the shadows around the Night King’s eyes, which are added in post-production for the new actor. That doesn’t make the prosthetics or any other effect worse; they just work better on the original actor.

      Honestly, it’s rather insulting to the makeup, special & visual effects departments to imply they simply don’t care enough to make it look good.

        Quote  Reply

    48. By the way… why “Miracle Baby”? I mean, I don’t know how it goes in the books, but at least in the show it is just as possible that Daario is the one being infertile.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Luka Nieto,

      I agree; there is nothing wrong with the actor or the prosthetics, it is just that we got used to it. So it is not scary any more. Come on guys, I hate zombies and I nearly missed the show because I did not want to watch a show about zombies (no Walking Dead for me), but now I laugh at them. We got used, that is all.

        Quote  Reply

    50. I’ve been thinking about this a bit lately – at some point will Jaime offer Widows Wail/ Brienne return Oathkeeper to Jon and Ice will be reforged? Two things – 1) this would be reminiscent of Anduril in LotR and 2) Ice is the ancient sword of House Stark and could have some sort of magical property to fight the WWs – Lightbringer? Just throwing this out there…

        Quote  Reply

    51. Cersei’s Brain,

      Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper already have magical propertries to fight the White Walkers, as they are Valyrian steel; so why is there a need for the the sword to be an ancestral Stark relic? Better to have two swords than one, isn’t it? Especially when the one sword was a greatsword, which are a bit unwieldy.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Future hypothetical politics seems like an incidental topic, so I won’t delve too far into that. I doubt the show will go there at all. However, I must discuss the “Great Man Theory”. Whether or not you subscribe to that theory in real life, it’s rather obvious that GRRM’s fictional world is predicated upon it. The existence of prophecies alone proves it, but even ignoring those, we can see the author’s fascination with the Targaryens and their magic bloodline. Having dragon blood makes you exceptional, both for good or ill.

      Moving on, I also want Sam to be the one who tells Jon. At least the man still has feelings, and their friendship is one of the better developed relationships in the story.

      And I don’t need to see any more of Rhaegar and Lyanna, thank you very much. We already know what we need to know about them, and wasting precious screentime to develop this tragic romance seems like a poor decision to me. There are many other tragic romances in the present to satisfy this urge, so why bother with the past? We might get something more in the books, and I’d be fine with that.

      Finally, I don’t need to see characters dying to be satisfied. The only thing I need to be satisfied is the reunion between Arya and Jon. I don’t know why, but I’m way too invested in this fictional sibling relationship. Maybe it’s because their book versions keep thinking about each other, but I really need them to cry their eyes out when they meet again. Other than that, I’ll be happy to simply get some closure to this story.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Luka Nieto: The prosthetics actually look much better than they did back in season five, and certainly season four (where the Night King looked the fakest.) We can argue about the VFX, though; his face is very much edited with CG, it’s not just prosthetics. All the shadings and reflections and translucency that confer that icy quality to his face are 100% post-production. Maybe it just looks worse because we’ve seen more of him. It’s a very difficult effect to master.

      Also, the original actor’s slimmer and more skeletal features were better for the prosthetics and the shadows around the Night King’s eyes, which are added in post-production for the new actor. That doesn’t make the prosthetics or any other effect worse; they just work better on the original actor.

      Honestly, it’s rather insulting to the makeup, special & visual effects departments to imply they simply don’t care enough to make it look good.

      Luka, with respect ~ you just informed me that prosthetics can produce varying results with different actors as though this wasn’t a point I already raised.

      And if you’re going to end with the suggestion that I’m out to disrespect the SFX crew in a comment I specifically prefaced with:

      “I generally don’t like dissing the production-side of the show as the hard graft of a lot of talented sfx crew goes into it.”

      then there, sir, we shall leave it. :^) I didn’t say they dont care. I’m saying that despite them caring, the end result still looks substantially weaker/faker, IMO, than in S5 and they don’t seem to be aware of it. No SFX crew in their right mind goes out of their way to make a character look less believable than in previous seasons. I’m well aware of that fact, thanks.

      Oh, and great article, btw, even if your argumentation on this point doesn’t convince me, tbh! ;^).

        Quote  Reply

    54. Damien,

      I just think they’re doing the best they can with the actor they have. That’s it.

      Personally, I prefer the former actor’s face, which was scarier, but the new one’s body and physicality are much more menacing.

      Damien: Oh, and great article, btw

      Thank you! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    55. Petra“Maybe Euron cuts out her tongue so Theon has to speak for her. I’d find it really moving if these two siblings who couldn’t stand each other in season two conclude the series broken but empathetic, dependent on each other to get by.”

      Wow! Reading this immediately brought me back to the s2Ep 8 scene between Yara and Theon. Specifically when Yara recounts to Theon how he was a balling baby that wouldn’t shut up 🙂
      It would be fitting if that balling baby ended up being Yara’s voice.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBNJJvfqso

        Quote  Reply

    56. Luka Nieto,

      Agreed but what if more is required to down the NK himself? I could see great closure in Jon (Aegon) using Ice, reforged with actual dragon fire, to slay the NK & perhaps sacrificing himself as well.

        Quote  Reply

    57. I think right away we r going to get a battle in the north between the living and dead team Jon/Dany will come to the rescue with Jaime close behind everybody who is everybody, with the exception of Cersei, will be in Winterfell. I think oddly enough with the people in the north and those on the way have their shit together it might not be so bad Kingslanding is fucked I think. Here is why Dany’s vision from s2, mostly everybody is or has left KL to go north, really Sansa foreshadowed that people will make way to Winterfell when the war happens, Jon and Tyrion’s talk about how many people there r in KL, I believe that the Night King got the dragon not just to punch a large hole in the wall but to get his million man army in KL. no way he will that opportunity up. basically the south will be in his hands for a time though.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Cersei's Brain,

      Ice can’t be Lightbringer (at least, if you’re referring to the original); it’s only hundreds of years old, and was acquired from Valyria. It does have magical properties to fight White Walkers, but that’s because it’s Valyrian steel, which Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail already are.

      I don’t think they’re going to be returned to the Starks, either. Brienne tried to give Oathkeeper back to Jaime in Season 6 in a scene that makes no sense if the writers are keeping in mind that the swords properly belong to House Stark.

      Rabelais:
      Remember that D & D said it would be a bittersweet ending. If Jon and Dany survive, it won’t be that bitter and if they’re both dead with Cersei on the throne, there’s nothing sweet.

      Regarding the use of the term “bittersweet”, I think it’s important to keep in mind what GRRM means when he defines that term. GRRM has praised Tolkien’s ending of LOTR, and described it was bittersweet and the sort of ending he hopes to achieve with ASOIAF:

      6. As for the future of Game of Thrones, he has a somewhat clearer idea:

      Kind of. Although he’s more sure of GoT’s end, he’s obviously still being a little coy. “I think you need to have some hope,” he said, referencing the manners in which sagas end. “We all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end, like [J.R.R. Tolkien]. I think Tolkien did this brilliantly. I didn’t understand that when I was a kid — when I read Return of the King.” Now, however, he notes that Tolkien’s use of allegory to reveal life’s grittier truths (the tragedy of post-war Britain in the late ’40s and early ’50s, in the case of Lord of the Rings), even in the face of a well-earned victory is brilliant. You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect, he said. Life doesn’t work that way.

      LOTR has what a lot people would describe as a happy ending, certainly in comparison to other fantasy stories that have come later. Details like the Scouring of the Shire, Frodo eventually heading west, etc. are what make it bittersweet in GRRM’s words. But the climax of LOTR doesn’t kill any of what we would probably consider the story’s main characters, so that’s not a prerequisite in GRRM’s mind.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Luka Nieto,

      They named Ned Stark’s bastard their king. Not Rhaegar Targaryen’s legitimate son.

      I don’t know how discontent over their king surrendering their independence to a Targaryen could be soothed by him marrying that Targaryen, once it’s been revealed that he too is a Targaryen.

      Anyway, I don’t believe that Jon would accept a title that he had been given ahead of his siblings, partly on false pretences.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Sean C.,

      This is a great point. This plus the orginal outline lead me to believe at this point that it is more likely than not that the core characters survive – Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion and maybe Sansa.

      All the seconday characters are probably dead.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      The Northern Lords will accept Lyanna Stark’s son, whoever the father is, if they also accepted a bastard of Ned, ahead of Sansa. They are not surrendering the North to a Targaryen; he’s a Stark too. Jon would also accept it, as he did the first time; Sansa was there the first time too.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Luka Nieto:
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      The Northern Lords will accept Lyanna Stark’s son, whoever the father is, if they also accepted a bastard of Ned, ahead of Sansa. They are not surrendering the North to a Targaryen; he’s a Stark too. Jon would also accept it, as he did the first time; Sansa was there the first time too.

      Given the set up Sansa has with ruling the North, I can see Jon giving her it when he learns the truth.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Luka Nieto: Riiight. I agree! That’s why I said exactly the following in the dialogue:

      Okay, I guess I’m not quite following your meaning there. Are you suggesting that Dany is going to outright abolish the nobles in places where the ruling families are gone and institute something more commoner-oriented in replacement? Or remove the regional governments entirely and run things from King’s Landing?

      Yes, Sean C., “breaking the wheel” is just from the show … but it IS in the show, and it’s brought up repeatedly; you can’t just ignore it because you don’t like it. You always say there’s no setup, despite all evidence to the contrary. If something like this happens, I wonder if you’ll still maintain that position.

      I don’t ignore; I just don’t think it has much significance, based on how it’s been used and the way the narrative has been written. Indeed, this season explicitly indicated that Dany’s use of the phrase is really just a slogan (“Make Westeros Great Again!”), and that she doesn’t have any particular program behind it. The fact that it’s show-only is meaningful, as far as I’m concerned, because GRRM doesn’t just pull things out of nowhere, and if this story is leading toward major democratization/elective monarchy, we’d see some signs of that in the books. Now, maybe this is an element of the ending that D&D have decided to add on their own, in which case, fine. But even in that case, I don’t really see that based on the narrative choices they’ve made.

      I’ve seen it suggested that the way the Meereen story ends is foreshadowing of this, but to me the offhand mention of the Meereenese sorting out the government of the city under Daario’s supervision is just a slapdash way of shuffling the city offscreen now that the writers want to get Dany out of there as expeditiously as possible.

      The important part of that story is what we actually saw onscreen, since Team Dany spent two-and-a-half seasons in Meereen. In that time, there was no institution-building or constitutional process aimed at empowering citizens. Dany heard petitions, like any medieval monarch does, and sporadically asked for input from the governed in the form of representatives, but in both cases those representatives were individual characters introduced for specific narrative purposes who were not replaced after the characters fulfilled their story purpose and died. Mossador popped up out of nowhere as a representative of the Freedmen, but he only existed for Dany to execute him; once that happened, neither she nor Tyrion (when acting in Dany’s stead as viceroy) replaced him; the same with Hizdahr as a representative of the Master class.

      Moreover, neither of those characters were assigned any actual legal power, nor do any of Dany’s advisors have that (or Jon’s, to bring him into the discussion; indeed, Jon rather explicitly this season doesn’t give a damn what any of his advisors think, not even the noble body that elected him). Dany is an autocrat, who is fine with taking suggestions and hearing from affected parties, but expects to make the decision on her own and for everybody to fall in line with what she alone decides (as does Jon). To the extent that she empowers anybody in Meereen, it’s only because she’s not intending to govern the place herself anymore.

      Further, the characters of a story (particularly the main characters) are the biggest tell as to what a story is about. This is particularly true of the show, which generally views things only through the prism of main characters (e.g., Dorne effectively ceases to exist once Ellaria and her brood are wiped out), but it’s also true of the source material. There are no truly significant commoners in this story, and barely any side characters either (especially in the show). The kind of ending where the payoff is a real change in the role of commoners in society would, to my mind, necessitate there being some identifiable characters to illustrate this, but in neither medium are there such people. This is a story about nobles, and the conflict is between people like Cersei, for whom everybody is just a chattel, and people like the heroes, who are all noblesse oblige types.

      If something like the “break the wheel” suggested ending does happen, I’ll consider is very inadequately handled, for the above reasons.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Sean C.,

      I know people are quick to dismiss George’s original outline wholesale because of a few major plot points that were changed, but knowing how he originally envisioned this series playing out does tell you a thing or two about how subversive he actually is, which is what many people miss. He pretty much spelled out for the publisher that he planned to kill off a few decoy protagonists early on in order to distract people from the fact that his five central characters were safe. He planned an incestuous love story for two of his protagonists that was going to start off as a tortured forbidden romance and end on a happier note once Jon’s parentage came out. Regardless of what was cut, what stayed in, and what was re-purposed, it’s clear at this point that he isn’t on a mission to subvert every fantasy trope in existence. I’ve maintained for awhile that while GRRM readily subverted hero tropes for the Starks he killed off in Act 1, his Big 5 served as more of a deconstruction of various hero tropes. Through them, you get a strong sense of “be careful what you wish for.” Bran wanted to pursue a higher calling, Arya wanted to wield a sword and fight her enemies, and Jon wanted to be a hero and prove his worth. Seven seasons later, Bran’s tripping out on visions 24/7 and can’t even carry on a normal conversation, Arya’s target practice consisted of taking out people to avenge the deaths of half her family, and…say, how’s that fun task of being the (insert latest title here) in charge of saving the world from the ice apocalypse working out for you, Jon?

        Quote  Reply

    65. elybe,

      Agree completley.

      Although regarding Jon he had epic boat sex and I will quote Jon: “i am glad the end of the world is working out for someone”

        Quote  Reply

    66. Luka Nieto,

      He’s a true-born Targaryen. That’s a fact. Just like Daenerys, to whom he bent the knee.

      If you accept that there would be discomfort over him bending the knee to Daenerys, then you surely cannot conclude that that discomfort would be alleviated by the revelation that their king is also a secret true-born Targaryen.

      Sadly, I could see the producers glossing over the situation as well, just because they want to wrap things up neatly with Jon and Daenerys together.

        Quote  Reply

    67. There’s some very interesting discussion here.

      It’s very interesting to see the points made about how Westeros will be governed in the aftermath of the conflict. There seems to be disagreement about whether that “better world” will look like.

      I think they are a little bit in between a rock and an hard place in crafting this better world. Any weakening of the monarch means strengthening the nobility, and any weakening of the nobility means strengthening the monarch, and both are pretty important and repressive parts of the “wheel” that characters like Dany and Tyrion want to break.

      If they do a proto-democratic reform, like having a national kingsmoot, it would strengthen the nobility, who in turn want to preserve a status quo that hurts the smallfolk. However, an “enlightened despot” is only a temporary reprieve from the problems that have persisted throughout the series. The war and bloodshed caused by competing claims on the throne will only continue during or after the rule of Dany or Jon or whoever ultimately wins. Meanwhile, any systemic change which empowers a monarch like Jon will also empower a future monarch like Joffrey; not sure if that’s really better long-term.

      I also don’t know what kind of systemic change that could be made that would empower the monarch. A national army? I dunno, I actually find that kind of implausible. The nobility and the smallfolk would probably balk at making a king or queen even more powerful after surviving the reigns of the Mad King, Joffrey, and Cersei, and certainly to a Targaryen.

      I actually think the kingsmoot idea is more plausible, and more satisfying, to me anyway. Yes, it’s imperfect, but it provides nobles an alternative to warfare when there’s an opening for the throne, so it ends that particular “wheel” and improves the world in that way. And unlike the crowing of an “enlightened despot,” it would arguably be the first of many steps towards a better future, whereas the crowing of Dany and Jon would just be the same thing that has happened in the past: one good ruler replacing a bad one, who could very easily be replaced by another bad one.

      Asking us to believe that Westeros really has turned a new page in some important way just because the series ended with a good person on the throne would feel like a cheat; if the ultimate victor were to incorporate the reforms Tyrion discussed this season, however, it would feel more earned, even if the Westeros still has many of its imperfections.

        Quote  Reply

    68. ramses,

      I love that scene! I made a comment, that we had to omit, that if one of the Greyjoy siblings die, I’d like their final moments to evoke that memory of Yara’s, of one sibling looking up at the other and smiling. Potentially, saccharine, but not in Alfie and Gemma’s hands

        Quote  Reply

    69. My predictions for season 8:
      – Episodes will be much longer. We saw with season 7 that hbo doesn’t have a problem anymore with longer episodes. They give D&D what they needed.
      – the episode count will be the shortest of all seasons but the runtime the longest.
      – D&D already wrote every episode and they know exactly what will happen in every episodes, in past season they could shift some scene to a later season, not anymore. They also stick with the 6 episode count. Even when they didn’t knew exactly how they would fill in the scenes. That tells me, they aren’t concerned with how long an episode will be, they know what will happen in an episode and it’s to the director to decide how he will put that on screen.
      – even shackman (hope I remember the right director) stated that all episodes in season 6 could be longer than the final of season 7. And I think hbo is all in with the last season. A good last season means people will keep on watching hbo shows and other planetos shows.

      Next comment I will comment about what I think will happen in the first episode.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Petra & Luka – awesome read! It will be an interesting season. I hope Cersei’s final round is delayed until the end – only because Lena Headey is truly wonderful in this role. I can’t imagine the last few episodes without Lena. I think the NK on the other hand… well… there’s a lot of build up but we’re not as emotionally vested as we are w Cersei; a love & hate relationship and we know her death is certain because of the prophecy – everyone else is a crap shoot.
      Sansa may die or not, she’s not one of the survivors based on early GRRM drafts. I know writing drafts/paths change but nevertheless a clue. The story was initially about Jon & Arya. I read Arya, spelled Aria means a melody sung solo, hence, a song of ice & fire; GRRM said he wanted a rough sounding name for Arya, who knows – he’s a genius. I really don’t like the dark path Arya’s taken in s7, my least favorite moments. I would also love it if Jon & Arya have that same hug in season 1. I agree when Hotpie mentioned Jon to Arya, her expression did not fall short & it humanized Arya for that moment. As far as Sansa, the show’s really polishing her up for a political role; but I heard the dire wolves mirror the Stark’s death. I don’t know if this is true, but if this is so Lady dies as a result of Nymeria her dire wolf sibling. Sansa could die for Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    71. I think episode one will have an cold opening in which we see tormund and Beric running on the wall towards castle black. Once they arrived one of them shouts something like “the wall is down. White walkers has passed through. Ed will send out the ravens. We see one arriving at one of the northern castles. But it’s to late. The white walkers are already there. Killing everyone. End of cold opening.

      The first scene after the intro will be Jon and daennerys at white harbor.

      What we will see further is 2 scenes minimum at winterfell. At least one before the Raven arrives from castle black talking about jon = eagon. And one after.

      We will see theon taking on euron. Or at least we will see theon. We will see the golden company. My prediction is that theon wins and will buy the golden company for deannerys.

      We will see tyshoo at kings landing. Some hard to hard with cercei about losing Jaime and maybe his money.

      The episode will end with Jon and Dannereys entering winterfell. Reunion time. This can also be the episode 2 opener.

      The question is will jaime meet Jon and dany in the first episode. Or later?

        Quote  Reply

    72. Episode 2: preparation for white walker attack. Cercei will kill Tycho. She will lay preparation for any kind of invasion in kings landing. Doesn’t matter if it’s the dead, people or dragons. We will see visions of the past with Rheagar and lyanna. Jon finds out about his past and we find out dany is pregnant. End of the episode the white walkers attack winterfell. (As a Cliffhanger not the real battle)

      Episode 3. First half is about white walkers attacking winterfell and they escape halfway through. Second half is that they need to go south of the neck. People flee south. They end being safe with the reeds

      Episode 4: they are leaving the reeds. They need the help of the vale. We will see the vale. They decide to attack kings landing.

      Episode 5: battle of kingslanding. Ends with the defeat of cercei. The night king is at kings landing.

      Episode 6: battle with the night king. And the dead. Second half is about life after the war. Laying plans to rule, some kind of democracy. Who survives and what they will do for the rest of their lives.

      How it will end I don’t know, only that it will be a step closer to democracy. Who will survives? I don’t know.

      Who is azor Ahai? I think it’s Jaime.

        Quote  Reply

    73. I’m not buying that Cersei actually is pregnant. Given that she lied to everybody, including Jaime, in the last episode, it could well be only a manifestation of her madness.

      My other theory is that the baby, if real, is Qyburn’s. But I have to get really drunk to explicate that one.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Jackol:
      Any thoughts on the Azor Ahai story/prophecy specifically?

      I don’t think the show (or the books) will confirm it either way. Characters in the story will believe it was Jon and/or Dany, and who knows, there may be others, but there won’t be any ‘meta’ confirmation; it’s not like Martin or D&D will come out and say who it is in an book chapter or an episode of the show. Azor Ahai was important because of what he did; he didn’t have superpowers that marked him as the chosen one, really. Jon and Dany will save the realm, so they’ll be interpreted as the Princes that Were Promised.

      Catspaw Assassin: I’m not buying that Cersei actually is pregnant.

      She really is pregnant. That much has been confirmed.

        Quote  Reply

    75. I read all the comments (I need to get a life), and here are some stray thoughts.

      Why would Sansa care about Shae? I doubt she even remembers the name, to be honest. Or maybe it’s because I never cared about Shae. Seriously, I was rewatching the earlier seasons and she was the worst part of Tyrion’s journey.

      Wasn’t there a third Night King actor? I remember his first appearance in season 4’s Oathkeeper, turning one of Craster’s sons. He was so strange that I recall arguing if it wasn’t supposed to be a Night Queen instead. In hindsight, a Night Queen would’ve been much cooler. Imagine the theories!

        Quote  Reply

    76. landstander: Wasn’t there a third Night King actor? I remember his first appearance in season 4’s Oathkeeper, turning one of Craster’s sons. He was so strange

      It was the same actor was the one from a season later, in Hardhome. It’s just that the prosthetics and the VFX were comparatively very underdeveloped.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Hi,
      I’m from Egypt and I’ve been following your website for sometime now and I’m in love with what you guys do in terms of bringing us GoT fans inside information and analysis about the series. Really, well done!
      I have a theory about Jaime and I felt compelled to comment because your conversation was so interesting and eye-opening so I hope I might add to it.

      I think Jaime will not head straight to Winterfell. The scene in which Arya met with a group of Lannister soldiers in Riverrun served as reminder that there is still a lannister force in Rivverrun and most probably Jaime will gather this force before heading to Winterfell. We might actually see Edmure again as he’s most likely imprisoned there. What do you guys think

        Quote  Reply

    78. Luka Nieto: She really is pregnant. That much has been confirmed.

      Proving once again that my success rate for prophecy matches that of the average television evangelist. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    79. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: The only way that works is if they never find out about his parentage.

      His parentage undermines his right to have ever ruled The North in the first place. He’s a Targaryen. Marrying another Targaryen would surely just exacerbate Northern discontent.

      Once he realises he’s a Targaryen he’ll surely do the honourable thing and acknowledge that The North belongs to Sansa.

      If he does end up marrying Daenerys then he’ll do so as a Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne, and The North should decide whether or not to bend the knee.

      If Jon remains King or Warden of the North after his parentage is revealed then I’ll be pretty disappointed with the show. It doesn’t make sense according to the characterisation of Jon or The North.

      Jon is the kind of man who will tell the Lords the truth and will offer to step down and Sansa rule. Sansa has done a good job of managing things to prepare the North for the Winter, but she’s not equipped to deal with the Night King and his army and I’m guessing they will know that.

      I suppose it’s possible the Northern Lords are stupid enough to tell the Targaryens to take a hike but I doubt it considering the threat they are facing. I’m sure Glover and a few other Lords will be pissy about it for a bit, because that seems to be what they do. But this Targaryen is still an adopted son of Ned STARK and true born son of Lyanna STARK and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, born in Westeros and raised at Winterfell. He wasn’t elected King because he was a legitimate son anyway.

      Jon was elected because he fought in the battle of the bastards (and personally beat the crap out of Ramsay in single combat), reunited the North, made allies of their former enemies (Free Folk) and is trying to save the North from the existential threat from the army of the dead.

      He had the good judgment to name Sansa to manage things in the North while he went in pursuit of dragon glass and allies, a mission at which he succeeded.

      I guess to make some “drama” D&D can have the Lords call for the Targaryens to be booted out of Winterfell or for Jon to be dethroned, which would be incredibly stupid since they need the allied forces and Daenerys’ army and dragons are the main part of their forces.

      That said, I can see the Lords only being willing to bend the knee to their Targaryen, and not the foreign one. That could cause drama between Dany and Jon, not because he wants the throne but because it puts Jon in the position of spoiler and he has bigger problems to worry about.

        Quote  Reply

    80. I’ve been calling the recent Night King ‘Sad Muppet’ and half-expecting him to say ‘meep!’ at some point, but I have to say that Jimmy is a much better name.

        Quote  Reply

    81. oh my god so much to consider! Great article Haven’t read comments but I wanted to bring this up:

      I always picture them eating breakfast together. It makes no sense, but I always picture them in a kitchen, at a circular table, eating cereal. So I have this mental image of Daenerys, Sansa, and Arya in that awkward setting, and Sansa or Arya being like “So, you’re my my brother’s new girlfriend?” I don’t think Sansa and Arya are going to be happy that Jon bent the knee to a foreign invader.

      Heh, perhaps as uncomfortable as Ramsey’s dinner table scene or Sams with his father!

      You mention Mists of Avalon, one of my fav books of all time (I haven’t read it for decades suspect it a bit dated). But yeah that scene when they find out they are related was incredible and led to a very interesting take on the legend

        Quote  Reply

    82. Mr Derp:
      Hodor Targaryen,

      Shae deserved every bit of that.Tyrion shouldn’t feel badly in any way, shape, or form.Shae actually reached for a knife to try and kill Tyrion before he did anything to her.Not to mention that she betrayed him in almost every possible way.

      Totally agree. I’ll grant you that she perhaps was ‘persuaded’ to act as she did, but if she loved Tyrion as she said she did, she would not have betrayed him this way.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Lilian: I think Jaime will not head straight to Winterfell. The scene in which Arya met with a group of Lannister soldiers in Riverrun served as reminder that there is still a lannister force in Rivverrun and most probably Jaime will gather this force before heading to Winterfell. We might actually see Edmure again as he’s most likely imprisoned there. What do you guys think

      yes! I love this theory. Not only would we get another great scene w edmure and jaime but also Jaime would get North with somthing to offer Dany & co. Yeah it’s not Cersei’s whole army, but a small Lannister force would still be a big help. Plusit ups the stakes of all interactions between characters at Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Lilian,

      I also think that a Jaime in Riverrun scene in Episode 1 is likely, perhaps installing Edmure back in Riverrun and rallying the Riverlands with some of the Lannister forces to head North (or somewhere).

      My question is how the NK’s campaign will go. I see three basic possibilities:

      1. NK goes to WF and the Battle of the Dawn is there. The Stark/Targaryen alliance takes care of Cersei and KL at the end of the season. This seems like it evolves too quickly for a six episode season.

      2. NK goes to WF, is repulsed (dragon battle?), and goes to KL. Battle for Dawn is at KL. (One can imagine a reverse scene where Jon is standing in the battlements of WF and stares down the NK, who moves south to get more wights). Getting repulsed at WF seems a bit odd, but it could set up tensions with the Northern lords/Vale about whether to march South to save the rest of Westeros.

      — An alternative is that WF is bypassed in order for the NK to raise more wights, but this seems unlikely.

      3. NK goes to WF, WF is taken and the Champions of Life retreat with columns of refugees, perhaps heading to Riverlands. NK proceeds to KL and the Battle for Dawn is at KL. This seems like it could encompass a lot of storylines, but a retreat from WF in the midst of winter seems awfully messy.

      There are many variations of course, including a retreat to the Neck and the battle of the Dawn happens there. Will be interesting!

        Quote  Reply

    85. Lilian,

      I like that theory. Jaime being actually useful and would make Tyrion look like less of an idiot if Jaime shows up with an army versus by himself.

      David A,

      I like those options. I have no idea which way it goes but I have to think Winterfell is called Winterfell for a reason and will play some role in winter’s fall so had been leaning towards 1 but 2 or 3 seem more likely from a drama perspective as everyplot line converges into one final climax.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Pigeon:
      Red comet finally hits. Preferably landing on Cersei or Sansa. The end.

      Nice one – but that’s an ‘apocalyptic’ ending rather than a ‘bittersweet’ one! Perhaps not quite the idea that D&D (or GRRM) have to conclude the story 😉

        Quote  Reply

    87. My prediction
      The Whitewalkers are unstoppable and the more they kill the bigger the army and the more unstoppable they become – it’s basically a bloodbath – character after character will die. (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau has spoken about characters becoming wights in this season 8 and hopes its not him because the hours of makeup!)

      Cersei’s fall has to be connected with her greatest failure – her unwillingness to join the anti-whitewalker alliance – Kings Landing falls to the WhiteWalkers – this is teased in the “How many people in Kingslanding”. Then Dany’s remaining Dragon or Dragons torch the city – thus the vision of the dragon flying flying over Kings Landing and the burnt out Red Keep.

      It’s not going to end with a classic Jon vs NightKing – Martin (I presume we’re roughly getting Martin’s ending) wouldn’t end with such a cliche. If the fight happens the NightsKing kills Jon.

      All seems lost

      Why do we have a trained assassin, now with a Valyrian steel dagger, running around? Arya’s role is to take out the NightsKing. Game Over.

      Remnants of humanity begin to rebuild.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Interesting folks, very interesting. These are my thoughts.
      1. Dany is pregnant by Jon (Aegon). First, its the Targaryen way. Second, how better to carry on the legacies of Mihasa and the Khaleesi. My sense, given the usual outcomes of such things in most myths and legends, is that Dany does not survive the birth. And then since we are in high mythos territory, is it one child or two? My money is on twins, in mythos, its always twins. It would make sense for these children, to be reared by those closest to Dany and two characters who I suspect will become her most critical allies, the Sisters Stark.

      2. Jon/Aegon. Mr. Straightarrow aka the Westerosi Capt. America, is going to have some seriously dark nights of the soul. It’s true. All of his life he has known nothing, really run away from almost everything except getting his ass out of some seriously bad situations. Seriously the first ballsy thing Jon did was execute the men who had stabbed him to death and then use the technicality of having been dead to quit being Commander of the Night’s Watch. Now he’s going to have to marry a woman who is a blood relative and military rival and heroic character in her own right so that their child/children will be (a) legitimate and (b) unquestionably The Heirs to The Iron Throne. I have never been able to clearly see Jon or Dany on the throne. I can see their children as the next generation of rulers and, I see Jon not entirely disappearing from the scene. We have been shown how the White Walker were created. We have seen that something happened to Benjen that left him human enough but still somehow impacted by his encounter with the White Walkers. My sense is something similar could happen to Jon/Aegon making him the Prince That Was Promised and possibly the dragon-riding immortal Guardian of the North. Yes its a stretch, but it plays.

      3. The Last of the Lannisters. If she is actually pregnant, Qyburn probably had something to do with it. If that’s the case, what will probably drive Cersei over the edge is if the baby is something of a monster. My money is on Arya killing Cersei most likely wearing Littlefinger’s face. Varys dies helping Arya get to Cersei. Arya gets Casterly Rock. She so deserves it. Jamie is going to die redeeming himself after making his confession of guilt to Bran. I agree Bran will go all Three-Eyed Raven shaman/mystic “of course you are forgiven because I would never have gotten where I am without you.” But, and I know this is a big ask, could Jamie and Brienne, well you know. Its not like she’s that into Tormund (who might be dead anyway) and she and Jamie almost got there, what in Season 2 or was it 3? And no man deserves to go to his death without the love (at least once in his life) of a really good woman.

      4. Aegon v. the Night’s King. I’m forsworn as one of the Watchers, so I think I got this from some of the “read the books lore” but isn’t there a legend that the Night’s King was once a Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch? It would be totally romantic and perfect if Aegon aka Jon Snow fights the Night’s King in a duel on dragons. Dany will have died so Aegon will be fighting to protect his children, his family and all who have fought with him and died for Dany and her vision of a broken wheel.

      5. Final point: Sansa resumes her marriage to Tyrion.

      I’ll stop now.

        Quote  Reply

    89. ghost of winterfell,

      I do realize hundreds of people have probably written this by now (I’ve been woefully absent from WotW due to new job/getting re-accustomed to day shift/catatonia), but I think that a) you’re on the right track with dislodging the dragonglass, and b) the dagger now in Arya’s possession is going to have a major, major part in the endgame. Bran handed it over to her in a way that seemed almost careless, but imo it was (contrary to outward appearances) very calculated.

        Quote  Reply

    90. QueenofThrones,

      I agree! As much as I want Jamie and Brienne to have as many scenes together as possible, this makes sense.

      The show also showed Jamie talking to generals about the threat before he left, so there is potential there… a mutiny to join him later?

      Another poster suggested the Northern refugees could be blocked by Lannister forces, in that case Jamie may convince them to stand aside/join up.

      What would be bittersweet, is if Jamie has sneak back in and blowup KLs, after its taken by the NK to stop the spread of the NK army.

      I predict that some form of High King style leadership will be introduced, a vote by a restricted group to elect a leader from within themselves. Baby steps to democracy. And Tyrion already introduced the idea…

        Quote  Reply

    91. Black Raven:
      Pigeon:
      Red comet finally hits. Preferably landing on Cersei or Sansa. The end.

      Nice one – but that’s an ‘apocalyptic’ ending rather than a ‘bittersweet’ one! Perhaps not quite the idea that D&D (or GRRM) have to conclude the story 😉

      ….close up shot of desolate, ruined city. Further on, we see that some forest remains….

      *shifting of various small pieces of rubble. Out pops the face of Ghost. Nymeria. Ser Pounce. A couple of pissed off crows. A tiny kraken and a fish in a puddle. A stag and a lion play cards in the background. A bearded dragon and a snake skitter by.*

      The End.

        Quote  Reply

    92. ghost of winterfell,

      Yep, my thoughts also. Remove the dragon glass shard from the NK and he will lose his power and the entire army of the dead will crumble to bones and ashes.

      We saw a glimpse of this in Ep6? When Jon killed the WW leading the scouting patrol, all the wights disintegrated barring one (which perhaps was not under his control) which was the one they brought back to KL. So perhaps killing the NK (or removing the dragon glass shard from his heart) will destroy his lieutenants which in turn will take down the wights under their control?

      Perhaps with Sam’s help from the books he took from the Citadel and with Bran’s 3ER abilities such info could by passed to Jon and Dany to defeat the army of the dead? I’m sure there will be a few epic battle scenes and with the dragons doing their thing, but I reckon that’s how the Great War will be won?

        Quote  Reply

    93. Sou: Quote

      Sou:
      We have six episodes left. Six. Six. There is no way we will see more of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And, honestly, who cares. The average (meaning non nerd) viewer knows that he was the crown prince, met Lyanna at a tournament, got smitten by her as she by him, obviously found a way to keep in touch and decided to elope. What is more to know?
      And I don’t think we will be seeing the Reeds either. But I am not absolute about that.
      Jon will not care about the Iron Throne, but will mind the blood relation… until the pregnancy revelation comes along and he lets go.
      I do not see Daenerys dying and, honestly, I don’t understand this whole Mad Queen hypothesis. I never saw her as mad. She made some poor choices, but mad? She is not dying because a) she has to give birth b) try killing your female lead and keep the male alive and kicking. The audience will skin you alive.
      Plus, Daenerys’ purpose was to get to the Iron Throne. Jon’s was bringing Dawn. He does not need to survive to the end to do that. Still, I love him. You love him. Everybody loves him. He is not dying. This will be a conventional ending.
      Jaime will kick the bucket though. He will die in the arms of the woman he loves, but hopefully he will complete his redemption and well, just live a little happiness before. Yes, I totally ship that.
      Beric and Tormund won’t die so soon. Beric was brought back six times, dammit. I mean he must have a reason to be there. Do something great before dying. Standing on the Wall watching an ice dragon is not something great. So he will go on until he saves Jon’s life or something.
      Tormund is the only wildling we know. He may still die, but not yet.
      I hope the Hound does not die.
      Bronn will. And Varys. And of course Melisandre. I hope ser Davos stays alive. He doesn’t do much, but we all love him.
      I do not care if all the Dothraki disappear from the face of the earth.
      Speaking of faces, I would like to see the Faceless Men again. Though there would be absolutely no reason for that.

      Now, about strategy: if I were Jon, instead of reinforcing the Umbers and the Karstarks, I would have all houses abandon their castles taking their supplies, send the elderly, the sick and the young children to Bear Island (the wights don’t swim), and gather all my forces for a big deciding battle at Winterfell. Short of like Marathon. Or Thermopylae, but hopefully with a better ending. I can’t see the point in dividing forces in small castles allover.
      And if I were the Night King, I would just take my dragon, burn (or freeze) down every living soul south of the Wall and be quick about it. It’s a good thing the Night King will not prove himself a much better strategist than Jon et Co.

      Bearded Onion,

      Sou,

      I don’t understand why everyone assumes

      Sou:
      We have six episodes left. Six. Six. There is no way we will see more of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And, honestly, who cares. The average (meaning non nerd) viewer knows that he was the crown prince, met Lyanna at a tournament, got smitten by her as she by him, obviously found a way to keep in touch and decided to elope. What is more to know?
      And I don’t think we will be seeing the Reeds either. But I am not absolute about that.
      Jon will not care about the Iron Throne, but will mind the blood relation… until the pregnancy revelation comes along and he lets go.
      I do not see Daenerys dying and, honestly, I don’t understand this whole Mad Queen hypothesis. I never saw her as mad. She made some poor choices, but mad? She is not dying because a) she has to give birth b) try killing your female lead and keep the male alive and kicking. The audience will skin you alive.
      Plus, Daenerys’ purpose was to get to the Iron Throne. Jon’s was bringing Dawn. He does not need to survive to the end to do that. Still, I love him. You love him. Everybody loves him. He is not dying. This will be a conventional ending.
      Jaime will kick the bucket though. He will die in the arms of the woman he loves, but hopefully he will complete his redemption and well, just live a little happiness before. Yes, I totally ship that.
      Beric and Tormund won’t die so soon. Beric was brought back six times, dammit. I mean he must have a reason to be there. Do something great before dying. Standing on the Wall watching an ice dragon is not something great. So he will go on until he saves Jon’s life or something.
      Tormund is the only wildling we know. He may still die, but not yet.
      I hope the Hound does not die.
      Bronn will. And Varys. And of course Melisandre. I hope ser Davos stays alive. He doesn’t do much, but we all love him.
      I do not care if all the Dothraki disappear from the face of the earth.
      Speaking of faces, I would like to see the Faceless Men again. Though there would be absolutely no reason for that.

      Now, about strategy: if I were Jon, instead of reinforcing the Umbers and the Karstarks, I would have all houses abandon their castles taking their supplies, send the elderly, the sick and the young children to Bear Island (the wights don’t swim), and gather all my forces for a big deciding battle at Winterfell. Short of like Marathon. Or Thermopylae, but hopefully with a better ending. I can’t see the point in dividing forces in small castles allover.
      And if I were the Night King, I would just take my dragon, burn (or freeze) down every living soul south of the Wall and be quick about it. It’s a good thing the Night King will not prove himself a much better strategist than Jon et Co.

      I was thinking the same thing. Everyone keeps on saying that Jon or Dany have to die or both. I disagree, you would be doing a disservice to Dany’s story if she never sits on the iron throne or rules. That has been her entire story from the beginning. I understand that not everything goes as planned, Killing her before she even gets to sit on the iron throne will ruin her story.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Sou,

      I’m so glad you brought this up; it’s a splendid scene, and one in which Tyrion, in true Tyrion style, sees a person’s character and (hidden) gifts long before anyone else does.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Lilian,

      Given that Edmure was mentioned to Jaime by Walder at the end of S6, and that the conversation between Edmure and Jaime was (imho) one of the best of that season, my first thought when I saw Jaime “take the black” (so to speak) at the end of S7 was that he would encounter Edmure again on his way north. I just can’t imagine that D&D will leave that hanging.

        Quote  Reply

    96. I don’t know if we’ll have time, as I’m assuming Jon And Dany arrive winterfell right away and are greeted with the news. But a nice scene between them where they both acknowledged their first love, and have a conversation about that. Strengthening their relationship in open dialogue about loss of a loved one.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Scenes I’d like to see:
      1. Sandor the Hound Clegane finds himself in a fight with his older brother the undead Mountain who is of course by the side of Queen Cersei. Sandor kills Cersei during the fight, possible choking her while pushing her aside in an effort to get to his real objective, his brother. The Valonqar prophecy is fulfilled since Sandor is the little brother. Season 7 blatantly foreshadowed with great Cleganebowl fan service a meeting of the brothers so I think this it is plausible for Sandor to kill Cersei.

      2. When Jon and Arya finally reunite, Gendry is beside him, just behind in the shadows. Jon calls Arya’s name with an open arm gesture for a hug, but Arya with a proud smile looks as if she is going to bend the knee to him with her hand on Needle instead and starts to say My Lord (or Your Grace) just as she hears Gendry’s voice from behind say excitedly “Ari, My Lady) stepping forward into the light bowing slightly to her. Arya turns in amazement and delight “Gendry?” and jumps joyfully into his unexpecting arms flinging her arms around his neck in a mirroring of her childhood jump into Jon’s arms. Gendry says “That wasn’t very Ladylike!” mirroring his comment when she pushed him down back in the Night’s Watch convoy scene, but hugging her with great joy “I told you you would always be my Lady”. Jon smiles on this scene a bit miffed but clearly pleased.

      3. Bran 3Eyed Raven wargs successfully into Ice Dragon Viserion causing the fall or grounding of the Night’s King in the peak of a dragon and rider battle. He lands near Daenerys who has been brought to the ground beside a wounded Drogon. The Nights King grabs her arm and thrusts his ice saber toward her. Daenerys softly but firmly commands “dracarys” and Drogon bathes them both in dragonfire, joined by Rhaegal ridden by Jon. After the appropriate moments of tense “Who will emerge from the tornado of fire?” an unburned but naked Daenerys appears, looking faint, one hand gripping a bloody, mortal looking gash near her heart. There is nothing left of the Night’s King except the dragonglass shard that was in his heart lying on the flame blazed but still snowy ground. The army of the dead drop and dissolve. Jon has landed and runs to catch Daenerys as she starts to fall. Bran 3 Eyed Raven in his vision mode walks up to the couple and tells the sad and distressed Jon to pick up the dragonglass shard and press it into the dying Daenerys’ wound. They all know what it will happen if he does and Daenerys gives him a small nod of assent. Jon slowly presses the shard into her wound as he kisses her for the last time. She turns ice blue white, but her eyes are still dark. She tells Jon to take care of their child (born in a previous episode). Her eyes turn blue. She walks slowly to Ice Dragon Viserion whos eyes return from white as bran unwargs from him. Daenerys lays her hand on his cheek. He raises his head. She mounts him and flys off toward the North, the sky lightening and the storm settling noticeable as she fades into the Northern horizon. Drogon and Rhaegal roar forlornly. Jon mounts Rhaegal and flys the opposite direction, toward Winterfell on the Horizon.

      A few more thoughts…Ghost and Nymeria have a litter of Direwolves… Gendry discovers the secret to forging Valeryan steel… Melissandre sacrifices herself to a flaming pyre in order to hatch a dragon from an egg that was discovered (laid by Rhaegal just as Daenerys gave birth to Jon’s child and Nymeria gave birth to her pups).

      Are you entertained?

        Quote  Reply

    98. I don’t necessarily think Jaime will pledge his services to Dany, but to the Starks.

      There’s an interesting aspect to the way Jaime is positioned to the four (counting Jon) Stark children:

      The vow to Catelyn to protect Sansa and Arya (the Blackfish brought this up last season and reminded the viewers). It would make sense if he, like Brienne, offered his services to the Stark girls.

      The incident with Bran – Jaime can’t find real redemption for it but he can offer his services and life to Bran, to do as he sees fit.

      Plus, he promised Rhaegar to protect his children, but he failed (Jaime at least feels like he did – in truth, he didn’t realise what was happening until it was too late, but he is haunted by it in the books. It hasn’t come up yet in the show but it might…). Jon is his last chance to fulfill that promise. (Depending on when and how everyone finds out about Jon’s heritage. And depending on how clear they’re going to make it that Jaime is one of the last few people around who knew Rhaegar.)

        Quote  Reply

    99. These are my key predictions for what they are worth:

      1. Either Dany or Jon or both will die. The death may transform them into something else rather than fully removing them, but this is not a fairy tale and the idealistic heroic lovers are doomed. Jon may get Benjened or warg into Ghost, Dany may become a Night King opposite in the form of a Fire Queen. Who knows. But they will not rule Westeros together happily ever after, unharmed by the Great War.

      2. Either Jaime or Tyrion will die by way of Widow’s Wail. I strongly believe this will represent the “lion tempering”. Widow’s Wail will then be reforged by Gendry. This will be the final “shattering”. Tyrion may die because of whatever he does to get in the way of Jon and Dany, or Jaime may die because of his past crimes against the North. Either way, it will be quite early in the season with a strong impact on subsequent events.

      3. Arya will use the face of a main character. My guess is she will use the face of either Jaime or Tyrion, whichever one of them dies. She will use this face to get access to and kill Cersei, fulfilling the prophesy of Cersei’s death. In her mission South she will be accompanied by the Hound who will finally get his wish.

      4. Bran will be key in getting around the threat of Viserion and the NK via a key moment of warging. This might kill or seriously injure him if he deliberately wargs the beast toward its death.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Jackol:
      Any thoughts on the Azor Ahai story/prophecy specifically?

      Sandor = Warrior of Light = AA
      Check out Show!Melisandre’s recitals of the prophecies.

      (*removes tinfoil fedora.*)

        Quote  Reply

    101. Lilian:
      Hi,
      I’m from Egypt and I’ve been following your website for sometime now and I’m in love with what you guys do in terms of bringing us GoT fans inside information and analysis about the series. Really, well done!
      I have a theory about Jaime and I felt compelled to comment because your conversation was so interesting and eye-opening so I hope I might add to it.

      I think Jaime will not head straight to Winterfell. The scene in which Arya met with a group of Lannister soldiers in Riverrun served as reminder that there is still a lannister force in Rivverrun and most probably Jaime will gather this force before heading to Winterfell. We might actually see Edmure again as he’s most likely imprisoned there.What do you guys think

      Honestly, I hadn’t even considered the possibility … but I love it! We did mention Edmure initially, but it got cut on the edit; Petra and I agreed he was a loose end that needs to be tied, but we had no idea how. Since we didn’t have any proper theory, we cut it from the dialogue. But your theory works great! This way, Jaime may take control of the Lannister army stationed at Riverrun, free Edmure, and together they could take some Lannisters and Tullys North. I like that idea very much!

      Spring Child: I don’t necessarily think Jaime will pledge his services to Dany, but to the Starks.

      You’re right, of course. I said Daenerys because Jon bent the knee to her, so she’s the boss now, but you’re right. It’s much more meaningful if Jaime pledges his sword to the three Starks, both to redeem himself for Bran’s attempted assassination and to maintain his oath to Catelyn to keep Sansa and Arya safe.

        Quote  Reply

    102. I’m wondering if Bronn and Pod are done for. Both left the Dragonpit meeting together. Pod is closely linked to Brienne, and Bronn to both Jaime and Tyrion. Cersei is a vengeful bitch and Jaime just left her. I wouldn’t be surprised if 2 of our favourite sidekicks are goners.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Luka Nieto,

      Jaime never vowed to keep the Stark girls safe exactly. What he promised was that he would return them (safely). But now they are returned, and there is no obligation left on his part towards their protection.

      However the part of his vow that has not yet been fulfilled is the return of Ice. Yes, half of it returned North with Brienne, but not the other half. So returning Widow’s Wail to the Starks is the remaining thing he needs to do to fulfill his vow.

      However his return to Winterfell will not be easy. There is the remaining issue of what he did to Bran. Bran doesn’t remember right now, but will once he sees him based on how the three eyed raven process seems to work.

      There is also his murder of his guards while a prisonner to escape the Northern camp, and other crimes the North will have difficulty forgetting. It will be interesting.

        Quote  Reply

    104. I predict that the spin off that has been mentioned will be Arya and Gendry off to search “whats west of west”… a muderous buddy series set in Sothoryos. Maybe the Hound can go along for be ride!

        Quote  Reply

    105. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Disagree – I think Jon will still see himself as a Snow/Stark even though his surname is Targaryen and the Northerners will come around eventually too. He was chosen as King in the North not because of his surname but because of his leadership skills and achievements…those haven’t gone away just because his parentage is different to what we originally thought.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Pigeon:
      I’m wondering if Bronn and Pod are done for. Both left the Dragonpit meeting together. Pod is closely linked to Brienne, and Bronn to both Jaime and Tyrion. Cersei is a vengeful bitch and Jaime just left her. I wouldn’t be surprised if 2 of our favourite sidekicks are goners.

      I think you are making too big a deal out of the fact we didn’t see them again. They are secondary characters. No explanation is needed for how they get to where they go next but they are not stranded in KL.

      Pod will show up with Brienne when we see her next. An explanation of how exactly they joined up again is not needed.

      Bronn will either chase after Jaime, still trying to get his castle and bride, or he will leverage Cersei to get his castle and bride. Cersei has the backing of the Iron Bank and knows that Bronn is loyal to gold after all. And he is a soldier while she just lost the commander of her army.

      Either way I think he will get himself named the new lord of the Twins.

        Quote  Reply

    107. elybe,

      Thank you. I don’t know why so many GRRM fans practice selective comprehension of his words and intentions regarding this body of his many works.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Some more notes on characters mentioned in the article:

      1. Beric. I think you are wrong he dies by WW attack. Yes, his position is dangerous, but the narrative needs him to fulfill his pirpose, which he has not yet done. We don’t yet have a reason for his existence really, in particular his revivals and his flaming sword.

      He needs to “pass on” his final life to a character that matters more than he does at some point. And I genuinely believe he is supposed to pass it on to someone who has a connection to the mission Ned sent him on way back in season 1 which was to protect the smallfolk and bring the Mountain to justice. So Beric will make it to Winterfell not because he needs to warn anyone, but because he needs to pass on his life.

      2. Brienne’s narrative arc is a counterpoint to Jaime and her fate is tied to that. She will encounter an impossible choice of oath versus oath at some point. If she survives the series, IMO she has been set up to complete Jaime’s entry in the White Book, which implies she will become LC of someone’s King’s/Queen’s guard. Because it is the LC who does the entries in the White Book.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Lilian,
      QueenofThrones,
      David A,

      Yes. This was my initial thought when we saw Jaime ride off in his black cape. I love the idea that he heads to the Riverlands to rally whatever forces still remain before heading North. He has to show up in WF with something more than Widow’s Wail).

      And I would hope that there is a scene between Jaime and Bran. I have been waiting for it since episode 1.

      Scott:
      Cersei’s fall has to be connected with her greatest failure – her unwillingness to join the anti-whitewalker alliance– Kings Landing falls to the WhiteWalkers – this is teased in the “How many people in Kingslanding”.Then Dany’s remaining Dragon or Dragons torch the city – thus the vision of the dragon flying flying over Kings Landing and the burnt out Red Keep.

      I agree with the suggestion that Cersei’s fall has to be connected with her refusal to protect humanity. However, I don’t think that the White Walker Army will get as far as KL. They will be stopped in the North.

      I also don’t believe that Euron returns to Cersei with the Golden Company. He will try to seize power for himself (and ultimately fail). At the end of the story, Cersei will be without allies other than Qyburn and Gregor and will be desperate.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Riverhawk:
      4.Aegon v. the Night’s King.I’m forsworn as one of the Watchers, so I think I got this from some of the “read the books lore” but isn’t there a legend that the Night’s King was once a Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch?It would be totally romantic and perfect if Aegon aka Jon Snow fights the Night’s King in a duel on dragons.Dany will have died so Aegon will be fighting to protect his children, his family and all who have fought with him and died for Dany and her vision of a broken wheel.

      Just based on the accelerated pace of events we’re heading into now that the Wall has fallen, I don’t see any way that Miracle Baby is born prior to the resolution of the battle with the Night King. That would require not the pregnancy to be well over prior to the final couple of episodes, and Dany isn’t even known to be pregnant yet. So if you think the baby is going to be born, Dany won’t die in the fight with the Night King.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Spring Child,

      I too hope that Jaime offers his sword to TE starks. He has no use of it really – Ned’s sword should be wielded by a better fighter, a north man. however the vow he made and means to keep – to ride north and fight the threat – was to Dany as the leader of that group.

        Quote  Reply

    112. My predictions top 10 characters

      1. Sansa – Lady of Winterfell and warden of the North

      One of the few characters i’m certain will survive. She has survived all of her human enemies and seeing as her characters not a fighter, I see no satisfying death for her, being killed by wights would be so strange. She is truly the last real Stark and is the character most intimately tied to WF alive. Taking in account words such as “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell” and her story arc so far, this is the only natural ending for her IMO – Unless, wait for it, she falls in love with Gendry (a fast forward relation, such as Faramir and Eowyn in Return of the King) and becomes his lady. It would be fitting for Sansa to have a happy ending considering all the things that have happened to her (her conversation with Littlefinger about being happy is also a clue).

      2. Arya – traveller to the west

      Arya is my second 100% survivor. Seeing her die at the hands of the NK or a wight would be so unfitting, and Cercei killing her is plotwise near impossible (and wierd). She also said to Sansa “our stories aren’t over yet” in s.7. She will leave Westeros after the realm is saved and go west, like she told lady Crane. It will be a Frodo-esque affair. She doesn’t belong in Westeros anymore, she was born to run wild. Thats not her. Quite simple. (Also, George promised his wife she wouldn’t die).

      3. Bran – Dead or builder of the new world

      Bran is already dead. The three eyed raven has one purpose, to defeat the army of the dead. There is simply no room for him in the spring. He will probably die similarly to the last three eyed raven, being killed by a WW, magic or a horde of wights. – Or, Bran becomes somekind of Bran the builder character, reubuilding Westeros, possibly with magic, IDK.

      4. Jon – Dead

      Jon died in s.5, he was brought back for a reason (imagine Berics voice). He has overextended his stay, and when is mission is over he will perish, but not before securing his legacy in Daenerys’s belly. He will die as he lived, as a shield guarding the realms of men and his child will be the heir to the Iron throne.

      5. Daenerys – Queen of the Seven Kingdoms

      She won’t die in s.8, mainly because she needs to deliver her child first. I believe she will never get over Jon’s death but rule as queen nonetheless with their child as heir. But I am very uncertain. Maybe her becoming queen is to predictable? IDK, but I do believe that she will live, her pregnancy is a Dream of Spring.

      6. Tyrion – Dead or de facto Ruler of Westeros

      Another character I am very uncertain about. I do think people are to quick to put him in the “living” pile. It feels like there is a buildup for him doing something heroic, something no one expected of him. There is something going on with him, I felt it in ep 6 and 7. But otherwise him ruling as hand and finally getting his vineyard could be a great ending too. He is a lot gloomier than he was in s.1 (mainly because of events in s.4) but he isn’t a true cynic anymore, so that ending for him might be considered bittersweet.

      6. Jaime – Dead or Lord commander of the Nights watch

      Jaime really only has two choices to finally redeem himself, dying or joining the NW. Dying could be done in conjunction with an eventual slaying of queen, or in the arms of a certain large Beauty but him leading a new, reformed NW could be awesome. It would fit ironically with his first scene with Jon in s.1, mocking him for the choice to take the black, and also how he puts the black glove over his golden hand when he rides north in s.7.

      7. Cercei – Dead

      Without question she will die, most likely at the hands of Jaime. Only other person I could see killing her is Arya, but I wouldn’t like that.

      8. Theon – Dead

      As in the case with Jaime, some things just can’t be forgiven. Theon cannot produce heirs, has no personal want for a throne or any lifestyle at all for that matter, he just wants to save Yara. It’s pretty straightforward IMO.

      9. Jorah – Dead

      He has commited himself to Daenerys and has really nothing left to give but his life. Seeing her with a child that isn’t his would also be cruel for him. He is a troubled character with no intention of doing anything else in life but serving Dany. He will 100% die for her in s.8.

      10. Gendry – Lord Baratheon

      He wasn’t just brought back to die in the last season, he will do some awesome smithing, be naturalized and become a lord. Maybe marry Sansa? He will be one of the “new generation” characters though.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ok, tinfoil hat on:

      I think that we’ll get to see some preparations for the WW army – perhaps Gentry makes more dragonglass weapons, or /and – if Sam discovers the ‘how to’ – Valyrian steel. Same time Sam dives into the History of Westeros and finds some important info about how to defeit the NK or something like that and he shares with Bran, who has a relevant vision that finally answers what happened at the Long Night thousands of years ago, and why they didn’t kill NK off back then. (perhaps he can’t be killed as long as there is magic in the world, like dragons and etc)

      Jon and Dany arrive at Wintefell and Jon finds out about his parentage. Knowing a bit of Jon, he will likely be shocked by the truth. I don’t think he’ll share it right away with Dany, but more likely keep to himself until he has some actual proof of it. BUT with ALL that people gathered at Winterfell, it is likely someone learns about this and tells it to Dany, who knowing her a bit is likely to be furious that Jon didn’t share it with her and that there’s a rival to the throne.

      Dany will likely find out she’s pregnant. Whether she’ll tell Jon or not – I think that at least at first she’ll keep that a secret too. Getting pregnant is a big deal to her arc and if it changes her arc it’s important to the story as she is one of the main characters. Not only that changes all her internal make up which was build around losing her child and never getting another baby as a price for blood magic and investing all that emotion to her dragons, but also because her priority will be to save this child and its father. She’d give her life to protect them. And Dany had a vision of the IT in ashes or snow in a KL that seems eliminated. She went beyond the wall and found in that hat Drogo and child. That kind of gives a clue for her fate. That must be used in the narrative of the story – at least I would use it if I were writing the story!

      Jon and Dany eventually make up and fight together, until or if – according to my view, Dany somehow dies.

      Mel comes back to the North – hopefully with a good number of Red God followers ready to fight by the living side. She also brings her magic knowledge. She knows blood magic and she may propose using it. That would demand royal blood as we know which, I’m sure that at least Dany and Varys will reject that as a solution.
      Or perhaps Mel has had a fire vision, that tells something about the fate of a main character and tries to do something about it. We know she will die – she has seen it – and I don’t think that someone will kill her for revenge. More likely that she gives her life to achieve something essential for the war. Same for Beric who, like others have mentioned, may pass his firesword and its secrets to the Hound.

      Bran, will likely help with his greenseeing and search into the past for crucial information. He may try to warg into a dragon – 3 eyed raven told him he’d fly, and I don’t think he meant warging into simple ravens. Maybe he will literally need to ride a dragon, or warg into one when needed. I think that Bran is a key to the story, something he does or discovers will be of outmost importance. A meeting between Bran and Mel would be very interesting.

      Jamie as Lilian mentions could gather some Lannister troops and Edmure and join the rest at Winterfell – yes I’d love that too Lilian, it’s a brilliant idea that you had!
      He will tell of course Tyrion that Cercei has betrayed them and about hte Golden Co. so they will need to take measures about that. I think it would be a great redemption point for his arc, if he dies to save Bran.

      Jon will likely need to face the NK with his allies; Arya, Nymeria and rest of direwolves pack along with Ghost, stand to fight by the humans. But they can’t kill the NK. I don’t think (and definitely don’t want that to happen) Jon dies perhaps someone sacrifices himself to save him. I have mentioned before many reasons for that. More likely that he survives and he’s frustrated that he can’t kill the NK and and beat himself for all the casualties.

      That’s where Bran, Sam Mel and Dany might come in. The solution I think will be found between those characters. But while that’s happening they need to retreat to safer grounds and they lose Winterfell. I think their final stand might happen at another place.

      Meanwhile the Golden Company that never break their contract arrive and Cercei sends them to retake grounds and attack the others. BUT Golden company leader, realizes that they’re fighting for the wrong side (either due to WW threat or something else, maybe the Iron bank does something), and join Jon and Co in the North breaking their contract . OR Euron – who has hired them – uses them against Cercei and takes KL. (karma is a bitch Cercei!). (OR Arya uses LF’s face and kills Cercei off on the 1st episode. That would be awesome!)

      That’s about when I’d like to see an epic battle against the NK where he is finally defeited somehow, around episode 5.

      Euron- I’d like Yara to kill him.

      That’s as far as my tinfoiling – wishful thinking -goes for now!

        Quote  Reply

    114. I don’t want Dany or Jon to die. Period. I want them to have babies and rule in the end. I see Jon & Dany as rulers of Westeros, and Sansa as the Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

      I see Tyrion’s arc turning darker. I don’t see Varys betraying Dany. But I can see Tyrion trying to undermine her relationship with Jon.

      I kind of like the idea of Arya going to King’s Landing to kill Cersei. As the Series ends, Arya realizes she is out of place at WInterfell. I see Arya returning to Braavos to become a Faceless Man reuniting with her mentor, Ja’qen. Arya wouldn’t have to take Jaime’s face to kill Cersei. All she’d have to do is “become” a Lannister soldier with Lannister armour.

      I predict a bad ending for Bronn, Podrick, and Grey Worm. Hope you’re right about Beric whoever said he will live to save Jon and do something heroic. I’m thinking Ser Jorah will do something heroic too, and die in the process.

      I think we will see some of our most loved characters become wights, like Hodor, and who ever is killed during the battles with the NK.

      Ser Davos will probably execute Melisandre, but first I can see her helping along with Bran and Samwell, to figure out how to defeat the NK. I want Davos to live and be a father figure to Lyanna Mormont and spend his days on Bear Island.

      My final prediction: Daario. Yes. Daario who is ruling and who used to be a sell sword and probably will find out about the Gold Company and Euron. I’m hoping he comes back to add his forces to Dany’s and Jon’s and in some way help them defeat their enemies. Dan & Dave seem to like to tie up loose ends and Daario was left back in Mereen for a reason…not just because Tyrion thought it was best…

        Quote  Reply

    115. So after reading the article and comments, I figure I might as well put down my predictions…

      I see the overall plot being Jon and Dany alliance squished between attacks from the North and South. There will be 2 fronts to the war and our characters will split between them… Eventually perhaps the NK will evade the Northern army and head straight south to KL. I would not be surprised if the “Final Battle” takes place at the Trident (Dany has a vision about melting the Usurper’s army – actually the WW army – with dragons breath in Book 1).

      End game predictions:
      Dany will never return to the Red Keep – the HotU vision shows her aaalmost touching the throne, then going to the wall, then returning to Drogo (which in my opinion means her death while fighting the WW). Given there was a baby in that vision also, I think she will have given birth to her and Jon’s child before she dies. Dany is one of my favorite characters but for a long time I have thought her end will be as a wartime Queen and Savior, not a peacetime ruler.

      I think Jon will survive, but will decide to abdicate in favor of his and Daenerys’ child and make his home in the North. Tyrion will rule for the child until (s)he comes of age, and bring reforms to the govt’. I do think though Dany will die, her legacy of bringing up smallfolk will resume. Most of the nobility is dead and those that remain owe their survival to common people and the dragons. Smallfolk, Unsullied, Dothraki, they will rebuild Westeros and make it their own. Since Jon will live and presumably will have Rhaegal, he can be an enforcer if any remaining Nobility get uppity and will want to visit his kid from time to time of course. There’s this idea from the Lore and D&E that the reason summerhall happened is because Aegon V decided the only way to enforce his reforms and truly help the smallfolk would be to have Dragons. Well, we have dragons now and good hearted reformers in charge… along with a weakened nobility, so I think it’s possible.

      Stark Girls – I don’t really see how Sansa would die at this point (but I was wrong about Olenna Tyrell – maybe Cersei will kill her, finally spurring people to action). Sansa might marry Tyrion (again, lol). Or not, I don’t care. I just want it to be organic and not fanservicy. Arya will certainly be killing some WW and wights… Jon reunion will be awesome. I hope she doesn’t take Tyrion or Jaime’s face… though it would be fitting for her to kill Cersei I really don’t want the Lannister bros to die just for this “gotcha” kind of moment. In any case, I think the girls both live and we have lots of Starks in the end. Also I would love if Bran would warg like ALL of the wolves in the North and Rivrlands and have them come and fight zombies. Maybe he can just warg Nymeria. A Time for Wolves.

      Cersei’s end… I would like Jaime and Brienne to be the ones to end her reign. At the last moment, Cersei will see Brienne is the YAMBQ, not Dany, Margaery, or Sansa (Dany will be busy fighting the WW). Remember all the YAMBQ has to do is to cast her down and take all she holds dear from her (aka Jaime and the throne). Doesn’t mean Brienne has to take the throne herself. I do hope that Jaime doesn’t have to personally Valonquar (choke to death) Cersei though – It seems to me like that would destroy him, no matter how good a reason he has. Then they can live happily ever after, right guys?!?!

        Quote  Reply

    116. I think the Jon-Daenerys relationship is going to be extinguished almost as soon as he learns of his parentage. Not just because he’ll be uncomfortable with the incest (although he will be, despite his Targ heritage he’s steeped in Northern norms), but because the Northern lords will then insist that he assert his right to the Iron Throne over Dany’s. Arya, Sansa, and Bran might push for this, too. Jon might not want the Iron Throne for himself, but his people will not accept a foreign queen from a long-hated (with ample reason!) house when one of their own actually has a better claim to rule.

      Sansa has already expressed her irritation that, on behalf of the North, Jon bent the knee to Dany without even consulting Sansa. Season 7 showed Arya driven by jealousy and suspicion, particularly of those she thinks might undermine Jon. Jon is Arya’s favorite brother and she his favorite sister. I think part of her bizzaro aggression towards Sansa in Season 7 stemmed from resentment at the favor Jon showed Sansa by making her his warden, and by giving Sansa Ned and Cat’s bedroom. I think it would be an incredible shift if Arya just embraces Daenerys because Jon has fallen in love with her. In fact I think that’s more likely to win Dany Arya’s instant and enduring enmity. And who knows what Bran the 3-Eyed Raven is going to think of that pairing. But what we have seen is that he’s pretty keen for Jon to know the truth of his heritage. The 3-Eyed Raven has been remarkably dispassionate about the emotional concerns of the people around him, so I can’t help but think that in this he’s driven by bigger reasons than just solving a private personal mystery for his brother/cousin.

      Daenerys has been betrayed for blood and for gold; she has yet to be betrayed for love. I think Jon will be thrust unwillingly into challenging her as claimant to the Iron Throne, perhaps even pushed by his countrymen and Stark kin to demand that she bend the knee to him. I think that will be Dany’s 3rd betrayal – even if it isn’t truly a betrayal the way that the other two were, she will perceive it as one.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Lilian,

      Thank you for such lovely feedback!

      I like that theory. It would be an organic way to bring Edmure back into the story & it would give Jaime a more impressive entrance at Winterfell. However, since Jaime is a deserter, he probably doesn’t have any authority over the Lannister army anymore. It would interesting if he gave it a try anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    118. ash,

      So glad to meet someone else who’s read that book! With all the Arthurian parallels I couldn’t help but think of that scene when Daenerys invited Jon into her room

        Quote  Reply

    119. Petra,

      Hey Petra,
      Thanks for your feed back :)). I cannot really determine how the Lannister force at Riverrun would react to Jaime, but I’m more inclined to believe that they may prefer the commander who led them in battle to the Mad queen in Kings Landing, especially given that the group of soldiers Arya met in Episode One seemed horrified by Ceresi’s actions that led to her being queen

        Quote  Reply

    120. awol: I think you are making too big a deal out of the fact we didn’t see them again. They are secondary characters. No explanation is needed for how they get to where they go next but they are not stranded in KL.

      Pod will show up with Brienne when we see her next. An explanation of how exactly they joined up again is not needed.

      Bronn will either chase after Jaime, still trying to get his castle and bride, or he will leverage Cersei to get his castle and bride. Cersei has the backing of the Iron Bank and knows that Bronn is loyal to gold after all. And he is a soldier while she just lost the commander of her army.

      Either way I think he will get himself named the new lord of the Twins.

      I’m not making a big deal of anything, nor am I saying an ‘explanation’ is needed for their next potential appearance elsewhere. I was simply speculating that it’s a possibility that they may be targets due to their associations. I hope not.

        Quote  Reply

    121. So many people believe Dany dying is more likely than Jon. I have to question the logic/reasoning behind this. I wonder if its just favoritism that comes into play here, Jon is the more beloved character after all.

      Take off the tinted glasses and look at the story for what it is.

      Dany’s story has largely revolved around ruling-understanding the prevalent political system, its flaws, her desire backed by attempts to bring about changes, the struggles she faces along the way. Her experiences are geared around learning to be a better ruler, ‘Breaking the wheel’ is associated with her character.

      The fight with the Whitewalkers forms the smaller part, when you look at her arc as a whole. This is one of the reasons people can’t see her dying at the hands of the Night King. It doesn’t fit. Hence you get these ‘death in birthing bed’ predictions.

      But how would death serve her story? If she was always meant to die in the end, what was the point of three-quarters of her arc that had her learning to rule?

      Jon’s story, by contrast, has mostly been championing the Living in the Great war. Ofcourse he has had his share of experiencing leadership and ruling, but it is a small part of his arc as a whole. Mostly he’s been built up as the Hero that’ll face off against the NK. Will the Lord of Light keep him alive after he fulfills that destiny?

      But again if he was always meant to die in the end, what is the point of his secret Targaryen heritage?

        Quote  Reply

    122. BranTheBlessed: So many people believe Dany dying is more likely than Jon. I have to question the logic/reasoning behind this. I wonder if its just favoritism that comes into play here, Jon is the more beloved character after all.

      Dany is my favorite character and yet I think she will be much more likely to die than Jon. I find Jon to be rather boring if I’m honest (he’s a good guy don’t get me wrong just… boring).

      In my view, her arc has always been that of a Savior, Liberator, and Conquerer. She is a person who would like to rule wisely as well, yet she has little passion for it. Her passion is for helping the downtrodden. Even if Dany were to rule on the IT, I think she would find little joy in it – she would much rather be riding here or there, being directly involved in helping her people.

      I think Tyrion is a much better peacetime ruler than Daenerys. Now, Dany could be a figurehead queen and leave all of the ruling to Tyrion of course. Yet I think that will not be her fate, because the ultimate way for her to be a Savior would be to sacrifice herself for the good of all. Also we have the HotU vision. If that was meant to be prophetic I believe Dany will die north of the wall. Possibly while destroying the Heart of Winter where the WW live.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Petra,

      I mean technically Jaime’s Lord of CR right? He could give Lannister men the choice to follow the Throne or the ‘Rock… which means a risk since Cersei be crazy, but also a chance for glory and fighting for their homeland. I think even more likely Jaime would appeal to loyalty to him personally. It’s not like Cersei’s been out working with and commanding those men. I really like in ep 4 how they repeatedly (like 4 times) demonstrated Jaime’s unwillingness to be an asshole to his men, and putting his own life on the line instead of protecting himself.

        Quote  Reply

    124. QueenofThrones:

      In my view, her arc has always been that of a Savior, Liberator, and Conquerer.She is a person who would like to rule wisely as well, yet she has little passion for it.Her passion is for helping the downtrodden.Even if Dany were to rule on the IT, I think she would find little joy in it – she would much rather be riding here or there, being directly involved in helping her people.

      I think Tyrion is a much better peacetime ruler than Daenerys.

      I agree. While Dany showed interest in learning how to actually rule in Slavers’ Bay, she showed no such proclivity in Season 7. She took Olenna’s, and before her Quaithe’s, advice to be her true, dragon self. She has shown very little interest in learning anything about the people & history of Westeros, except insofar as it intersects with her family’s history and her right to rule. When it’s revealed that Jon has a stronger right to rule than she does (even if he doesn’t want it), she’s going to face an enormous crisis about her very identity and purpose. And what better way to resolve that than through an act of selfless heroism that results in her own demise?

        Quote  Reply

    125. QueenofThrones,
      If I remember correctly, in the HotU vision Dany doesn’t remain with Drogo and the baby in the tent–she reluctantly leaves them. Do you think this could mean that she nearly dies at the Wall, but is saved? Or she dies but is resurrected (perhaps by Melisandre, who still has a reason to return to Westeros)?

        Quote  Reply

    126. QueenofThrones,

      As I mentioned earlier, the Great War is a bigger part of Jon’s arc than Dany’s. If there has to be one sacrificial character, I don’t see how that can be Dany over Jon. The latter is a dead man brought back as R’hollor’s Champion ffs!

      The Khal Drogo scene in the HoTU is show-only. D&D have admitted they added that scene only to bring back Jason Momoa to the sets. You don’t want to make predictions based on that.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Lunaselene:
      QueenofThrones,
      If I remember correctly, in the HotU vision Dany doesn’t remain with Drogo and the baby in the tent–she reluctantly leaves them. Do you think this could mean that she nearly dies at the Wall, but is saved? Or she dies but is resurrected (perhaps by Melisandre, who still has a reason to return to Westeros)?

      I just re-watched that scene last night, and it looked to me like what drew her away from her vision of Drogo & their son were the cries of her baby dragons, who were magically chained up by Pyat Pree. I.e. Drogo & child vs. dragons, the past that could have been vs. the present reality.

      It could have also foreshadowed her walking away from death in the future, but I think that scene’s symbolism was already quite rich without that connection.

        Quote  Reply

    128. QueenofThrones,

      Is that true that Dany has little interest in rulling? For someone who had no interest she was very dutiful about hearing hundreds of petitions a day. She took her responsibility seriously as there were countless scenes of her in that throne room listening to her people and struggling with hard problems.

      BranTheBlessed,

      I agree with you. What was the point of Dany spending all that time listening to petitions if not to show how she was learning how to rule etc.

      Plus, i saw a great video that analyzed her music and so many of her music revolves around the idea of uniting people and bringing people together according to an analysis i saw. If that is a big part of her acr, the realization of it would be uniting Westeros after everything is said and done.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Dany’s HoTU chapter is some of GRRM’s best work. I have read it multiple times yet still tempted to go back and give it one more go to try and find more hints and clues. Red Wedding was foreshadowed in that chapter.

      D&D botched it up big time in the adaptation. Basically turned it into a test of resolve for Dany. The Iron throne and life with Drogo/Rhaego-Dany’s two precious dreams-against the cries of her dragons. Pffft.

      I wish people would stop basing predictions on that.

        Quote  Reply

    130. House Monty:
      QueenofThrones,
      Is that true that Dany has little interest in rulling? For someone who had no interest she was very dutiful about hearing hundreds of petitions a day. She took her responsibility seriously as there were countless scenes of her in that throne room listening to her people and struggling with hard problems.

      Of course. Daenerys takes her duty seriously. And I said she demonstrated she was interested in learning to rule and to be a good queen. However I argue what her time as Queen of Mereen demonstrated is that she has very little passion for it. She would much rather be making radical change than having to deal with difficult and intricate issues, it’s simply where she’s happiest. I also think Jon is pretty poorly suited to rule. He seems to have little interest in trying to create a consensus – he’s totally undone whenever anyone has a different opinion since for him the “right” action is always clear and simple.

      Tyrion is well suited to rule on the other hand. He instinctively understands that there are many conflicting perspectives. Look at him last season. While his plans failed by some measure (Dany’s), they were very successful in that all-out War in Westeros was prevented and his sister and brother yet live.

      I agree with you. What was the point of Dany spending all that time listening to petitions if not to show how she was learning how to rule etc.

      Plus, i saw a great video that analyzed her music and so many of her music revolves around the idea of uniting people and bringing people together according to an analysis i saw. If that is a big part of her acr, the realization of it would be uniting Westeros after everything is said and done.

      Westeros can be united behind her cause and legend instead of her actual person. I also think she will leave her child behind. I don’t want her to die in childbirth though, that would be super annoying.

      BranTheBlessed: As I mentioned earlier, the Great War is a bigger part of Jon’s arc than Dany’s. If there has to be one sacrificial character, I don’t see how that can be Dany over Jon. The latter is a dead man brought back as R’hollor’s Champion ffs!

      They both might die. I’m more ambivalent about Jon.

      The Khal Drogo scene in the HoTU is show-only. D&D have admitted they added that scene only to bring back Jason Momoa to the sets. You don’t want to make predictions based on that.

      They did no such thing. They said they were delighted to have the opportunity to bring Momoa back. That in no way precludes the use of that scene as prophecy.

      In any case the prophecy works even if you choose to ignore that scene. Dany aaaaalmost touches the iron throne, but then leaves to go beyond the wall. I don’t believe she’s going back to the red keep.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Lunaselene: If I remember correctly, in the HotU vision Dany doesn’t remain with Drogo and the baby in the tent–she reluctantly leaves them. Do you think this could mean that she nearly dies at the Wall, but is saved? Or she dies but is resurrected (perhaps by Melisandre, who still has a reason to return to Westeros)?

      It’s possible.

      It’s ambivalent because of the fact that it’s reality that pulls her away at that moment. There’s a similar bit in the book hotu when she almost goes back to her childhood home but is pulled away by hearing the dragons. The implication in both book and screen is that if she chose to, she could stay at the hotu in her paradise-dream forever, but she chooses her children (dragons) and the difficult path of reality instead.

      If Drogo/Rhaego were meant only to be a temptation to Dany then this reduces the likelihood it’s a prophecy. However I don’t see why it couldn’t be both a glimpse of a past that could have been and a future that could be (if being with Drogo means death).

      Finally in the books we have the full prophecy from MMD which implies that “Drogo will return to Dany” once, among other things, “her womb quickens and she bares a living child”. Possibly meaning that she will die & be with Drogo some time after she has her & Jon’s kid. I don’t think she will die in childbirth though.

        Quote  Reply

    132. QueenofThrones,

      I’m not sure Jaime is Lord of Casterly Rock.

      When Tywin died, Cersei inherited the lands and titles. Jaime was still in the Kingsguard at the time, so unable to inherit, and Tyrion was of course attainted. In the books, Jaime is still KG and Cersei is Lady of CR in her own right.

      In the show Tommen of course sacked Jaime from the KG but I’m not sure that would retroactively reinstate Jaime in the CR succession ahead of Cersei, who already was Lady of CR at the time.

      I agree that Lannister captains and soldiers could have loyalty to Jaime personally so maybe he’ll be able to bring some men north.

        Quote  Reply

    133. QueenofThrones,

      There was plenty of foreshadowing in the book HoTU but I’m sorry, the show version made no sense.

      Vision: Winter is falling heavy in KL, the Red Keep is destroyed when Dany enters the Throne room. After that she goes beyond the Wall where she finds the tent.

      Reality: Dany visits KL but there’s neither the heavy snow nor a ravaged Red Keep. This is AFTER she’s gone beyond the Wall and returned unharmed. Will she go beyond the Wall again? Why would she when the Wall is fallen and NK/armies have crossed over to the other side?

        Quote  Reply

    134. talvikorppi,

      It’s even more confusing in the show because Cersei is never stated to be Lady of CR. In fact there’s evidence to the contrary since Kevan seems to imply she has no title at all – just Queen Dowager.

      It appears (to me) in show-verse that Kevan was Lord of Casterly Rock upon Tywin’s death. Then, Jaime was removed from the KG. Then Kevan and Lancel are killed by Cersei, Tommen suicides, and Cersei claims the iron throne and control over the Lannister forces. If Kevan was lord, then where does the claim go? Is Jaime his closest male relation??

      I had hoped that the show would clarify WTF is going on with inheritance of CR but it’s really unclear, since until Jaime left Cersei they were treated as a unit by anyone who would care (and with cause of course) so it may have seemed irrelevant. People do refer to Jaime still as “Ser Jaime” not “Lord Jaime” so that would imply he’s not? I don’t know. Cersei may have intentionally avoided giving anyone Lordship over Lannister lands in order to keep control for herself as Queen.

      It still may not come up next season. I do hope some of Jaime’s men follow him though, whether he has a claim or not.

        Quote  Reply

    135. I have no doubt in my mind that Jaime is Lord of Castley Rock . He was the one who took the strategic decision to abandon the castle. He couldn’t have done that only in his capacity as Commander of the Lannister Army. He took it also as Lord of the Castle

        Quote  Reply

    136. BranTheBlessed,

      Well for one thing you’re being extremely literal about the specifics of the visions which is contradictory if you enjoyed the book hotu which was all figurative when it came to future events. The dwarves raping the lady is not a literal vision (instead it means that Westeros will be “ravaged” by war of the 5 kings) nor was the red wedding vision literal, and neither does Dany’s show hotu vision have to be.

      If it’s figurative it could mean a lot of things. First off it’s debated whether that’s supposed to be snow or ash. If snow, it could mean that Jon (Snow) will be king after Dany chooses not to take the Iron Throne. Alternatively it could mean literal winter will reach KL yet she will chose not to take the throne (in fact winter / snow did reach King’s Landing when she left KL and finally resolved to head north – so it’s pretty close to literal under this interpretation).

      If ash, it could mean that to take that throne, Dany (or someone) would have had to burn the red keep to ashes. That’s what Dany wanted to do in the first place. But, ultimately she chose not to do.

      You could interpret the fact that Dany went north of the wall already instead of burning down KL to mean the prophecy already is fulfilled. That was just a brief trip though. I think there’s something far north of the wall that must be destroyed to stop the WW and that’s what Dany will go and do, then die in the process.

        Quote  Reply

    137. QueenofThrones,

      I agree, the CR situation hasn’t been clarified in the show. But how could Kevan become lord before Tywin’s own children?

      In case Jaime was Lord of CR in the show, he won’t be for long! 😀 Cersei will view him as a traitor and attaint him!

        Quote  Reply

    138. talvikorppi,

      Some extreme forms of male preference would put Kevan (a brother) in front of Cersei (a daughter), maybe that’s what we’re meant to think happened…

      You’re right of course – as far as the iron throne is concerned, Jaime is a traitor. But if he already was Lord of Casterly Rock he can make a move to secede the Westerlands… Tullys were traitors in the eyes of the IT as soon as Robb was declared KitN, but it took a long time to bring the Riverlands to heel.

      If Cersei is Lady of Casterly Rock and Queen of the 7k, then it’s a harder case Jaime has to make since there’s no structure in place supporting his right to lead the armies of the Westerlands (he owes his authority to Cersei and is basically replaceable).

        Quote  Reply

    139. Lilian,

      If Jaime was Lord of the Rock, he’d be referred to as such, but he’s only ever called the commander of the Lannister armies. He wouldn’t need to be Lord to order an abandonment of the Rock, since the only plausible alternate contender for the ruler of the Rock is Cersei, and she approved of the whole scheme.

      Beyond that, I’m not expecting to see Jaime bringing any Lannister men with him. The visual of him riding out of KL solo is a pretty telling one; he’s just a lone knight now. Likewise, I wouldn’t expect to hear anything more about Edmure, who was at the Twins when last we heard; if the writers were going to bring him up again, that would logically have come up when Arya was there.

      QueenofThrones:
      Tyrion is well suited to rule on the other hand.He instinctively understands that there are many conflicting perspectives.Look at him last season.While his plans failed by some measure (Dany’s), they were very successful in that all-out War in Westeros was prevented and his sister and brother yet live.

      Tyrion’s plans failed by any reasonable measure, in that they did not achieve the things he wanted to achieve by them.

      Westeros can be united behind her cause and legend instead of her actual person.I also think she will leave her child behind.I don’t want her to die in childbirth though, that would be super annoying.

      The pacing of the show now is breakneck, and with the White Walkers through the wall, that will likely only continue. I don’t see how Dany could possibly have her baby before the final battle with the Night King.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Lilian,

      Jaime may have had Cersei’s approval for his plan. He clearly had discussed at least some of his plans with Cersei, as is apparent with his conversation with Lady Olenna (Cersei had wanted Lady Olenna to die a painful death but Jaime persuaded her to let Olenna take poison.)

      It is possible Jaime is (or at least was) Lord of CR (for instance, Cersei might’ve given it to him when she took the throne), but he’s never addressed as such. The situation just isn’t clear.

      I like the idea of Jaime doing something worthwhile in the Riverlands on his way north but I don’t know if there’s time for that in a 6-episode season. I think we’ll see him in the north, I’d like him to meet Bran again, and Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    141. QueenofThrones,

      OK, now I got the mental image of western lords unseathing their swords and shouting “The King in the West! The King in the West!” 😀

      (No, I don’t think that will happen.)

        Quote  Reply

    142. QueenofThrones,

      Her going north of The Wall in the vision doesn’t mean she literally has to go north of The Wall either.

      It could just be interpreted as predicting that something beyond The Wall holds significance in her future/destiny.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Sean C.:
      Tyrion’s plans failed by any reasonable measure, in that they did not achieve the things he wanted to achieve by them.

      I think Tyrion wants Dany to rule but he wants her to do it without burning down King’s Landing or committing other similar atrocities. I think that Tyrion was successful in the latter goal but not the former one.

      Less direct strategies like the one Tyrion proposed are more risky but have higher payoff if successful. A gamble failing does not mean it was a bad idea or Tyrion failed. Again he did succeed at preventing Dany from melting the red keep which was a goal of his. He also back channeled the alliance between Jon and Dany which is massive.

      The pacing of the show now is breakneck, and with the White Walkers through the wall, that will likely only continue.I don’t see how Dany could possibly have her baby before the final battle with the Night King.

      Maybe. It seems like 9 months pay have passed in s6. You may be right though. One issue would be would they really want to do a pregnancy prosthetic on Dany again?

        Quote  Reply

    144. I can see Arya becoming a type of Benjen figure in the Stark family (though not beholden to Night’s Watch how’s, obviously). A type who prefers to be off on a mission or expedition, yet is well-loved by all on the times she returns to her old home for a period.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Pigeon,

      I like that way of looking at it, yeah. The cool uncle / aunt, as I said.

      Queenofthrones,

      Yeah, just because the pacing is faster doesn’t mean that less time is passing in the show. A lot more time passed in season seven than in, say, season four, which must have taken a matter of weeks or very few months.

        Quote  Reply

    146. talvikorppi,
      Lilian,

      IMO, Jaime is being set up to lift the siege of Winterfell. Think of it. Jon & Dany and the Unsullied are travelling by the boats, and we can expect them to arrive to Winterfell, before the Ningh King does. Then there may be a short battle with dragons making both parties realize that it’s too risky or the Ning King will simply try to avoid a direct clash with Dany who still outnumbers him in the air 2:1; on the other hand, when Dany finds herself pregnant, Jon will try to keep her out of the fight. One way or another, the Ningh King will lay a siege, and Jon won’t be able to lift it on his own, which means that the last minnute aid will be required.
      Now, let’s look who could be capable of comming to that aid? The Dothraki were commanded to ride to Winterfell by King’s Road but I have the feeling that they won’t make it there before the siege begins – they are perfect to lift the siege, but not to fight durin it (that’s the job for the Unsullied). However, the Dothraki have no commander. If they are isolated from Dany, expect them to get lost – they don’t know the enemy, they don’t know the country, they are not used to fight in winter, etc. If Cersei spreads the word that Dany is dead, I think the Dothaki will stop somewhere in the Riverlands and start thinking about going back to Essos. And that’s where Jaime comes into play. Sure, he should be able to and will summon some men in the Riverlands, after he learns that Winterfel has fallen under siege. IMO, that will be both Lannister soldiers and the Tully loyalists: “Fuck loyalty, it’s about the survivor; if the North falls, we’ll fall too!” But I think that Jaime will manage to rally the Dothraki too: they beated his army and mocked it’s “inability to fight”, but this time Jaime will have a full righ to call them cowards, if they refuse to ride to Winterfell and eventually the Dothraki will follow him. Anyway, that would be something I would like to see.
      Tinfoil off.

        Quote  Reply

    147. Seeing as the writers are men, I imagine Jon will be the hero and the reluctant ruler of the seven kingdoms. In the same way they showed episode after episode of female nudity & only 3 seconds of Jon’s butt, they will kill Dany probably while she is giving birth.

      It will be so much better if they both survive the long night and defeat Cersi together. Or they both die and their baby-the prince that was promised- lives to bring the dawn and be the future King.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Personally, I’m reflective of the bittersweet of the ending to Jon’s story, he’ll only live as far as to see the end of his primary purpose in the show, defeating the Night King. I believe the battle for Westeros will come after this at which stage he will already be dead.

      I see it happening in the duel against the NK, he will be one of the heads of the dragon but there will be ‘complications’ in killing the NK using dragon fire and so Jon will jump from his dragon onto Viserion with the NK and they will duel it out. Jon will kill the NK at which time all of his army will fall and as Viserion dissipates Jon will fall to his death while Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran and the rest of Winterfell watch as he hits the ground and dies. This scene will also be the basis for the naming of the new government structure once those who survive kill Cersei and co.

      As a side note I’d love to see Cersei go to full-term and have the baby but the baby to be born with dwarfism so from its very first breath every time she looks at it she is reminded of the person she hates most, and this internal conflict results in her becoming ‘full mad queen’

        Quote  Reply

    149. I can’t believe no one has noted yet that Dany’s vision in he HOTU already called one to pass.

      She effectively forgoes her persist of the IT not she went BEYOND the Wall to save the Fellowship of the Wight. There she is forced to leave behind a dead child and an (un)dead future love in order to save her other dragons and the rest of the fellowship. Soon after she leaves King’s Landing snow begins to fall there, winter has arrive. The vision doesn’t necessarily need to be literal.

      As for her survival, I use to think she might die, but now I think the chances of her living are quite good. She can’t die until Cersei dies, she IS the YMBQ. This except from Cersei V AFFC should cement that:

      “One more thing. A trifling matter.” He gave her an apologetic smile and told her of a puppet show that had recently become ions grow greedy and arrogant as this treasonous tale proceeds, until they begin to devour their own subjects. When the noble stag makes objection, the lions devour him as well, and roar that it is their right as the mightiest of beasts.”

      “And is that the end of it?” Cersei asked, amused. Looked at in the right light, it could be seen as a salutary lesson.

      “No, Your Grace. At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions.”

      And I don’t think Cersei will die until after the NK is defeated. The war to depose Cersei will be GRRM’s Scoring of the Shire. That after everything that’s happened, humanity in the bring of extinction, the game of thrones still persist. The pursuit of power is endless. That’s the true bittersweet ending.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Sou:
      Jon will not care about the Iron Throne, but will mind the blood relation… until the pregnancy revelation comes along and he lets go.
      I do not see Daenerys dying and, honestly, I don’t understand this whole Mad Queen hypothesis. I never saw her as mad. She made some poor choices, but mad? She is not dying because a) she has to give birth b) try killing your female lead and keep the male alive and kicking. The audience will skin you alive.
      Plus, Daenerys’ purpose was to get to the Iron Throne. Jon’s was bringing Dawn. He does not need to survive to the end to do that. Still, I love him. You love him. Everybody loves him. He is not dying. This will be a conventional ending.

      I don’t know if it was done on purpose or not but I think part of the fandom has bought into the in-universe propaganda about the Targaryen Madness.

      Dany has never acted insane, her actions are on par with any other ruler and frankly, she’s behaved much better than most. She does have a ruthless streak but this is in line with her wanting to be just and punishing those who have caused a great deal of harm to others, especially children. Because her forces are so overpowering it might seem like she’s harsher but I defy anyone to find another ruler in universe who would use Dany’s forces in much the same way she has or worse.

      Going back to the Targaryen’s, in-universe the narrative of Targaryen madness has taken a hold, even though Rhaella, Dany’s mother and also a Targaryen wasn’t mad, neither were Aerys and Rhaella’s parent, great grandparent, great-great grandparent, etc. There have been but a handful of truly mad Targaryen’s in the 300 year history we have.

      Priscila:
      Tyrion will die guys, SORRY.

      House Lannister has to go down in History, Tywin´s legacy a Lie. That is the point of Castamere, that the Lannisters will die like the Reynesthat defiled their rule. Lannisters defiled and betrayed the Targs and they will die.

      I wouldn’t have thought this possible before but I don’t think it’s out of the question now. I watched this YouTube channel where the presenter analyzes the soundtrack of GoT. His name is Jordi Maquiavello, he’s from Spain so his video are in Spanish. Anyhow, he did one on the Reigns of Catamere and it got me thinking. The family sigil was also a lion, like the Lannisters and their story is not too unlike that of the Lannisters, in regards to the abuse of power.

      With the Reigns of Castamere playing such an prominent role throughout the series, is does make you think.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Petra:
      ash,

      So glad to meet someone else who’s read that book! With all the Arthurian parallels I couldn’t help but think of that scene when Daenerys invited Jon into her room

      Actually even read the two prequels….not as good as the original, but had some interesting premises

      Im loving all of the ideas people are coming up with. Such creative thought, I think everyone here could write their own book! There is one idea that someone suggested a few months back that still intrigues me. In the end, you see Sam finishing writing in a book, he closes it, and you see the title: A Song of Ice and Fire. He is the narrator and the writer of the history. If not, I at least want to see Sam and Gilly have a role in giving information from their reading that will help defeat the armies,and they live on thro the end.

      Also think Jon and Dany die, Cersei dies, Arya hooks up with a lannister soldier and has a happy life, Sansa hooks up with Gendry and they rule the north. Tyrion acts as regent for Jon and Dany’s child. And while life isn’t perfect in the realm, it at least the realm is alive and ready to march on to better times, whatever they are.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Moiaf,

      If you’re talking about the books, Cersei won’t be in any meaningful position in ASOIAF post-Long Night. Indeed, there’s a solid chance she’ll have been mostly defeated before Dany even arrives in Westeros. Book!Cersei is a fool descending into insanity, not the show’s evil genius.

      The general principle that there’ll be more to the books’ ending than defeating the Others, though, is certainly true. GRRM has talked often about the challenges of rulership that he feels traditional fantasy doesn’t focus on enough, and one imagines that governing a post-Long Night Westeros will have its own challenges.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Moiaf,

      That makes complete sense.

      Interesting you raised the treatment of children; it seems the poetic justice of this story demands any leader whose forces murder children dies. Including Children we were either told about being killed (Tywin , Drogo’s men) or shown being killed/ ordered killed (Joff, Boltons, Stannis) . Even Olenna and Littlefinger killed a child in Joff and are now dead. Lord Tarly was going to kill Sam to get his own way – and he’s dead now, too.

      If that theory holds…Theon will die. Jamie tried to kill a child, but he has lost everything he committed that crime to protect- and the hand that did it. I think he’s safe from this aspect of ‘poetic justice ‘.

      When Cersi blew up the sept, I think there were children shown outside. She fits the theory.

      Tormund ( leader of village raids) and Sandor (Butcher’s boy) ? Hmmm…

        Quote  Reply

    154. Northstar,

      Sandor was adjudged not guilty of murder of Mycah, as per Beric D. in S3e5 after Sandor prevailed in trial by combat:

      Arya: You can’t let him go! He’s a murderer! He’s guilty!
      Beric: Not in the eyes of god.
      Arya: You can’t!…
      Beric: Enough! The judgment isn’t ours to make.
      Go in peace, Sandor Clegane. The Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet.

      In S6e7, Sandor asks Brother Ray…

      Sandor: If the gods are real, why haven’t they punished me?
      Ray: They have.

      Therefore, Sandor has been legally exonerated and spiritually absolved of the death of the butcher’s boy.

      And he was correct in the first instance: it was not his place to question princes. (As Wimsey has observed, the “Nuremberg Defense”, i.e., “I was only following orders”, is not only condoned but commended in the GoT world.)

        Quote  Reply

    155. Ten Bears,

      Hi, ok, good!

      I wonder if another defence, successfully used by the Allies re WW2, could also be applied to the Planetos setting – if a child is in uniform its not a war crime to kill them…

        Quote  Reply

    156. QueenofThrones:

      I second that – yes very close to my view! 🙂

      I also believe that Dany wasn’t born to rule. Her dragons and magical abilities were given to her for a reason that has nothing to do with an earthly throne. I consider her the Savior of the Living. I think it’s time to leave all that gender driven discussion for who can be the hero or not, because it excludes any woman from being humanity’s savior because that might kill them. I believe that Dany will be the one to save people and she will be the hero that sacrifices her life.
      That, to me, would be the perfect pay off for her arc, not chaining her to the IT.

      That said, I would love if both Jon and Dany lived. I don’t mind a happy ending: I’d love to have the good guys win, the truly worthy rule, and live a happily ever after that we rarely- if ever- get in real life. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    157. KailuaStark:
      Scenes I’d like to see:
      1. Sandor the Hound Clegane finds himself in a fight with his older brother the undead Mountain who is of course by the side of Queen Cersei. Sandor kills Cersei during the fight, possible choking her while pushing her aside in an effort to get to his real objective, his brother. The Valonqar prophecy is fulfilled since Sandor is the little brother. Season 7 blatantly foreshadowed with great Cleganebowl fan service a meeting of the brothers so I think this it is plausible for Sandor to kill Cersei.

      2. When Jon and Arya finally reunite, Gendry is beside him, just behind in the shadows. Jon calls Arya’s name with an open arm gesture for a hug, but Arya with a proud smile looks as if she is going to bend the knee to him with her hand on Needle instead and starts to say My Lord (or Your Grace) just as she hears Gendry’s voice from behind say excitedly “Ari, My Lady) stepping forward into the light bowing slightly to her. Arya turns in amazement and delight “Gendry?” and jumps joyfully into his unexpecting arms flinging her arms around his neck in a mirroring of her childhood jump into Jon’s arms. Gendry says “That wasn’t very Ladylike!” mirroring his comment when she pushed him down back in the Night’s Watch convoy scene, but hugging her with great joy “I told you you would always be my Lady”. Jon smiles on this scene a bit miffed but clearly pleased.

      3. Bran 3Eyed Raven wargs successfully into Ice Dragon Viserion causing the fall or grounding of the Night’s King in the peak of a dragon and rider battle. He lands near Daenerys who has been brought to the ground beside a wounded Drogon. The Nights King grabs her arm and thrusts his ice saber toward her. Daenerys softly but firmly commands “dracarys” and Drogon bathes them both in dragonfire, joined by Rhaegal ridden by Jon. After the appropriate moments of tense “Who will emerge from the tornado of fire?” an unburned but naked Daenerys appears, looking faint, one hand gripping a bloody, mortal looking gash near her heart. There is nothing left of the Night’s King except the dragonglass shard that was in his heart lying on the flame blazed but still snowy ground. The army of the dead drop and dissolve. Jon has landed and runs to catch Daenerys as she starts to fall. Bran 3 Eyed Raven in his vision mode walks up to the couple and tells the sad and distressed Jon to pick up the dragonglass shard and press it into the dying Daenerys’ wound. They all know what it will happen if he does and Daenerys gives him a small nod of assent. Jon slowly presses the shard into her wound as he kisses her for the last time. She turns ice blue white, but her eyes are still dark. She tells Jon to take care of their child (born in a previous episode). Her eyes turn blue. She walks slowly to Ice Dragon Viserion whos eyes return from white as bran unwargs from him. Daenerys lays her hand on his cheek. He raises his head. She mounts him and flys off toward the North, the sky lightening and the storm settling noticeable as she fades into the Northern horizon. Drogon and Rhaegal roar forlornly. Jon mounts Rhaegal and flys the opposite direction, toward Winterfell on the Horizon.

      A few more thoughts…Ghost and Nymeria have a litter of Direwolves… Gendry discovers the secret to forging Valeryan steel… Melissandre sacrifices herself to a flaming pyre in order to hatch a dragon from an egg that was discovered (laid by Rhaegal just as Daenerys gave birth to Jon’s child and Nymeria gave birth to her pups).

      Are you entertained?

      Yes 😀

        Quote  Reply

    158. Predictions:

      Magic – all magic will go out of the world, the purpose of the dragons being to overcome the army of the dead. So…dragons will die, Melisandre and many red priests will die, Bran will die, Jon and Beric will die (resuscitated through magic). I say this because I just can’t imagine a role for Three-Eyed Brandon and dragons flying around in peaceful Spring.

      Generational renewal – Davos and Jorah Mormont are goners. We’ve never met Davos’ family so he’s expendable and Jora da Explora won’t have any exploring to do once Spring comes so he’ll have fulfilled his purpose.

      Three heads has the dragon – Dany to have triplets? Or maybe Jon does survive and gets down to baby making with Dany or some other likely lass. All I know is dat dragon gonna have three heads by the end of this story because they keep going on about it.

      Decimation of the foreigners – I don’t see there being much of a place for Dothraki and Unsullied in the 7K, I reckon they’ll be very zombied by the end. Those Dothraki that remain I can imagine living in the Far North, enjoying the wilderness and the remaining Unsullied on guard duty somewhere.

      Those I think will survive (but who knows, it’s GoT!) – Sansa, Dany, Tormund (last of the Free Folk, they’ll be all dead to us if he dies), Tyrion (don’t go leading any sorties buddy, you’re my fave), Brienne (LC for a worthy monarch), Samwell Tarly (maybe Hand of a King or Queen? I’m unsure), Gilly and little Sam (reading lots about Ragger), Gendry (I presume he’s got some strong ‘armour’ after smithying for 7 years or so), Ed Tollett (because the New World needs some dolorous jokes).

      Most likely all of this will be wrong but a Man most find a way to fill his time whilst daydreaming of Spring.

        Quote  Reply

    159. SiriuslyStark,

      Here’s an idea…. remember Jamie saying the Mad King thought he would survive blowing up KL? What if Dany has to blow up the caches of wildfire in a KL overrun by the NK to stop the army of the dead…

      She could walk through fire blowing stuff up, truly heroic because who knows if she could survive ? *tin foil moment passed*

        Quote  Reply

    160. Northstar:
      SiriuslyStark,

      Here’s an idea…. remember Jamie saying the Mad King thought he would survive blowing up KL? What if Dany has to blow up the caches of wildfire in a KL overrun by the NK to stop the army of the dead…

      She could walk through fire blowing stuff up, truly heroic because who knowsif she could survive ? *tin foil moment passed*

      I love this idea! And it would be such a great peak for her arc, using her magical ability to save the world! Absolutely love it!
      Keep that tinfoil going! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    161. QueenofThrones:
      Spring Child,

      I too hope that Jaime offers his sword to TE starks.He has no use of it really – Ned’s sword should be wielded by a better fighter, a north man.however the vow he made and means to keep – to ride north and fight the threat – was to Dany as the leader of that group.

      Widow’s Wail is not going to be wielded by anyone. It is going to “shatter” ie. get reforged.

        Quote  Reply

    162. Sean C.:
      Moiaf,

      If you’re talking about the books, Cersei won’t be in any meaningful position in ASOIAF post-Long Night.Indeed, there’s a solid chance she’ll have been mostly defeated before Dany even arrives in Westeros.Book!Cersei is a fool descending into insanity, not the show’s evil genius.

      The general principle that there’ll be more to the books’ ending than defeating the Others, though, is certainly true.GRRM has talked often about the challenges of rulership that he feels traditional fantasy doesn’t focus on enough, and one imagines that governing a post-Long Night Westeros will have its own challenges.

      I think in the books we’ll still see the alliance between Euron and Cersei, but unlike the show in the books, Euron will be the main human antagonist. He’s really being built up as a force to be reconned with and if Aeron’s TWOW chapter is anything to go by, what he has in store will have far reaching consequences throughout Westeros.

      There is that passage where Aeron has a vision of a tall and terrible woman standing beside Euron. I think Cersei will make it to the end but only because she’s allied herself with Euron. She’ll eventually get killed though, there is no doubt about that.

      For the longest time, I thought the War for Dawn would be the culmination of the story but I don’t think so anymore. Even with the real thread to the world marching down on them some people are still fighting for power and that’s the saddest part of this because it’s true in our world as well. In a recent interview GRRM compared the WW to climate change and if the last few months have thought us anything is that no matter how important it is for all of us to come together to fight for climate change because it disrupts the bottom line for some many people will ignore the thread and continue to do nothing.

      Northstar:
      Moiaf,

      That makes complete sense.

      Interesting you raised the treatment of children; it seems the poetic justice of this story demands any leader whose forces murder children dies. Including Children we were either told about being killed (Tywin , Drogo’s men) or shown being killed/ ordered killed (Joff, Boltons, Stannis) . Even Olenna and Littlefinger killed a child in Joff and are now dead. Lord Tarly was going to kill Sam to get his own way – and he’s dead now, too.

      If that theory holds…Theon will die. Jamie tried to kill a child, but he has lost everything he committed that crime to protect- and the hand that did it. I think he’s safe from this aspect of ‘poetic justice ‘.

      When Cersi blew up the sept, I think there were children shown outside. She fits the theory.

      Tormund ( leader of village raids) and Sandor (Butcher’s boy) ? Hmmm…

      Good catch! I think there is a real theme of the innocents who die in war and the innocence lost at war.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Northstar,

      “Here’s an idea…. remember Jamie saying the Mad King thought he would survive blowing up KL? What if Dany has to blow up the caches of wildfire in a KL overrun by the NK to stop the army of the dead…”

      I like this too. Particularly if it is confirmed that when the Mad King repeatedly said “burn them all”he was referring to wights seen in visions.

        Quote  Reply

    164. Sean C.: If you’re talking about the books, Cersei won’t be in any meaningful position in ASOIAF post-Long Night. Indeed, there’s a solid chance she’ll have been mostly defeated before Dany even arrives in Westeros.

      Sometimes, changing one’s book theories based on the show is not a bad idea. Sure, they make changes, and major changes at that, but do you really expect show-Cersei to outlive book-Cersei by that much? Aegon is much more of a dead man walking than even Cersei is. I see Cersei blowing up Aegon, the Faith, and any other enemies as a way more likely possibility than just Cersei… dying, and Dany being confronted by the non-character that is Aegon instead.

      Moiaf: I think in the books we’ll still see the alliance between Euron and Cersei, but unlike the show in the books, Euron will be the main human antagonist. He’s really being built up as a force to be reconned with and if Aeron’s TWOW chapter is anything to go by, what he has in store will have far reaching consequences throughout Westeros.

      There is that passage where Aeron has a vision of a tall and terrible woman standing beside Euron. I think Cersei will make it to the end but only because she’s allied herself with Euron. She’ll eventually get killed though, there is no doubt about that.

      There’s little doubt in my mind that Cersei is the “shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire” at Euron’s side. Their alliance in the show only strenghtens this theory. Now I can see what I could never do until Aeron’s The Forsaken vision and season seven; Cersei surviving until the very end (at which point she’ll die, of course.) She might die earlier, but not that much earlier, as I and most people expected for years.

        Quote  Reply

    165. I have questions about the Iron Bank. Are they aware of the WW threat yet ? Are they going to be at any point and how will it affect their involvment ?

      I mean if I was that Iron Bank guy, I would just stop investing on that continent until things settle down. Or I’d get in touch with the Night King somehow ! Traders are probably predicting a 90% chance of Westerosi Doom at this point…

      I don’t know. It’s probably not going to be an issue. They promised us a Golden Company, so I guess we’re getting one. But they made a big point, season after season, of showing us how the funding of wars depended on the banker’s gambles : is it suddenly not an issue anymore ?

        Quote  Reply

    166. Luka Nieto,

      I’ve modified my thinking based on the show any number of times (I was generally leaning in the direction of Bran as a sort of mystic king/lord, akin to Bran the Builder, but the show’s categorical ruling him out as Lord of Winterfell seems fairly definitive to me, and that’s the sort of endgame detail I expect to be the same).

      But do I think the writers would keep Cersei around as a major threat well past when she will be in the books? Yes, absolutely. They’re already doing that, in fact. That’s reflected in the vastly different approaches the two mediums have taken to House Lannister.

      In the books, House Lannister has already mostly collapsed. Their military power is mostly exhausted, and any chance of them recovering the situation died with Kevan. That’s why Varys killed him; the only reason Cersei is still alive is because she’s Varys’ useful idiot, much in the same manner he and Littlefinger have strategically kept her foolish head above water by times.

      The Lannisters have already entered their death spiral. I expect we’ll see her exact some bloody wrath on the Faith, but this will not, unlike in the books, lead to her becoming the boss queen of Westeros, because in the books there are consequences to the villains’ actions.

      I didn’t say that Cersei would necessarily be killed immediately, just that she’d be mostly defeated, and not some kind of Saruman equivalent. That would require her to have capabilities she simply does not have, and which the show has had to considerably change the character to bestow upon her (as well as kneecapping Dany in ways the book character wouldn’t be; Dany is coming out of Essos on a “fire and blood” kick, she’s not going to nibble around the edges of Westeros to avoid burning anything).

      She’s certainly not going to beat fAegon. That’s hard to imagine on a plot level, what with Varys watching her every move, and it doesn’t make much sense thematically either, because fAegon and the whole Varys mega-plot are clearly engineered for Dany’s narrative. Dany’s the slayer of lies, and it will be her who unmasks the mummer’s dragon and deals with Varys.

      As far as the potential Euron/Cersei thing carrying over from the show and being indicated by Aeron’s vision, I’m dubious, but were such a thing to happen, Cersei would become little more than a fly in Euron’s web, given how different both characters are between media.

        Quote  Reply

    167. Sean C.: I didn’t say that Cersei would necessarily be killed immediately, just that she’d be mostly defeated, and not some kind of Saruman equivalent.

      That makes more sense. I could see her falling back to Casterly Rock as Aegon takes King’s Landing, and then Dany arrives and deals with both of them.

      You’re right about Dany having to be “the slayer of lies.” Aegon has to survive at least until Daenerys either unmasks him as a fake or kills him (or both.)

      Sean C.: The Lannisters have already entered their death spiral. I expect we’ll see her exact some bloody wrath on the Faith, but this will not, unlike in the books, lead to her becoming the boss queen of Westeros, because in the books there are consequences to the villains’ actions.

      So you really believe the show invented Cersei becoming Queen Regnant? It surprised me in the show, I imagine as much as you, but it still doesn’t sound like the kind of thing they would make up. We’ll see, I guess. As for the consequences, we’re seeing them play out in real time; probably not as fast as expected, but still, Cersei is now without any ally who isn’t a mad man.

      Do you believe there are no consequences for the villains’ actions in the show?

        Quote  Reply

    168. Luka Nieto,

      I could well imagine Cersei declaring herself queen regnant, but in practise this wouldn’t amount to much more than one deluded woman’s statement — Hitler in the bunker moving paper armies around. Whereas in the show she’s Tywin on steroids, doing things like convincing the Tyrells’ own bannermen to join her and negotiating great deals with the Iron Bank, to the point where Dany ends up begging her for an armistice even when Dany is winning the war.

      Yes, overall I don’t think there are consequences for the villains’ actions on the show. They lose in the end, but that’s not intrinsically a consequence in the meaningful sense. How they lose matters. There’s already been plenty of argument about the show’s handling of Ramsay, so I won’t restate all that, but Cersei on the show just gets stronger and more plot-gifted, and never suffers any in-universe blowback of a sort that would logically follow (and in many cases did follow for the Lannisters or the heroes).

        Quote  Reply

    169. Sean C.: I could well imagine Cersei declaring herself queen regnant, but in practise this wouldn’t amount to much more than one deluded woman’s statement

      Oh, I can certainly see that being the case. Cersei is much more of a two-dimensional mad woman in the books. I don’t know about her lifespan, but her time with a grasp on power being shorter in the books sounds about right.

      Sean C.: Whereas in the show she’s Tywin on steroids, doing things like convincing the Tyrells’ own bannermen to join her and negotiating great deals with the Iron Bank

      I read Tycho’s comments comparing Cersei to Tywin as naked adulation, but I agree that such a deal probably won’t happen in the books. However, I suspect there will be some Westerosi resistance to Dany’s conquest, and they’ll have to ally themselves with Cersei, not unlike Randyll did in the show.

      Sean C.: Dany ends up begging her for an armistice even when Dany is winning the war.

      Is that really what happened? If anything, Dany and Jon should’ve showed up with a more enticing offer than merely “let us be, as we have a more important war to fight … and THEN we’ll come back and kill you.” They might have been negotiating in Cersei’s turf, but Dany’s armies were there, her dragons were there, and the only thing stopping her was morality. I didn’t see that as “begging.” She certainly didn’t act like a beggar, either.

      Sean C.: Yes, overall I don’t think there are consequences for the villains’ actions on the show. They lose in the end, but that’s not intrinsically a consequence in the meaningful sense. How they lose matters. There’s already been plenty of argument about the show’s handling of Ramsay, so I won’t restate all that, but Cersei on the show just gets stronger and more plot-gifted, and never suffers any in-universe blowback of a sort that would logically follow (and in many cases did follow for the Lannisters or the heroes).

      I still think there should’ve been more obvious consequences to Cersei burning down the Sept (I don’t necessarily mean Jaime; I just would’ve liked to see more of the smallfolk perspective on it,) but what do you mean about Ramsay? Killing his father? He lied to the realm about it, and died by disregarding Roose’s advice for a siege, so what’s the problem, plot-wise or thematically?

      Milie The Frog: But they made a big point, season after season, of showing us how the funding of wars depended on the banker’s gambles : is it suddenly not an issue anymore ?

      It was an issue in season seven. There was an entire scene of Cersei making an argument that gambling on her makes more sense than on Daenerys. As for the threat of the White Walkers, the Iron Bank, at least Tycho Nestoris, seem to be the kind of people who wouldn’t believe rumors of such a thing.

        Quote  Reply

    170. Luka Nieto,

      The whole armistice discussion is played like they have to convince Cersei and, in Tyrion’s (I think) words, “we’re fucked” otherwise. Whereas realistically Cersei should be the one begging for an armistice – indeed, she should accept without needing the meeting – because the continuance of the war is not in her interests. She desperately needs more time.

      About Ramsay, I mean that despite seasons of us being told (including by Roose himself) that Ramsay’s impulsive brutality and cruelty would be his undoing, his methods in fact consistently paid off, and he only lost because of the designs of another villain.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Sean C.,

      Cersei does want the armistice, as she admits to Jaime in “Eastwatch,” because she does need time (as we learn later, it’s to bring the Golden Company over to Westeros.) That doesn’t mean she’s just going to fall over and agree to anything; her pride wouldn’t allow her to beg, and it may also make Tyrion and the others suspect that she has something up her sleeve (which she does.)

      As for Ramsay, “acting like a mad dog” (as Roose put it) is what killed him; if he hadn’t recklessly killed his father, they’d both still be alive, Littlefinger or no Littlefinger. I know it’s not the anti-Bolton Northern Conspiracy some people were looking for, but the thread is there, thematically and plot-wise.

      Roose insisted on a siege, but got killed; then, later in the season, Jon’s war council correctly predicted Ramsay would be too much of a mad dog with things to prove to the North to hide behind the walls of Winterfell. Ramsay also angered the wildlings, which he didn’t have to. Don’t get me wrong, I also wanted a pre-battle betrayal of the Boltons by Wyman or some other Lord, but the thematic and plot thread of Ramsay’s demise still tracks, for me at least.

        Quote  Reply

    172. Love reading all of these!

      Kills good time at work on Fridays.

      After reading some predictions: One thing that we haven’t seen yet is a Dragon over Kings Landing. Bran has showed us that vision before. Could that be the Night King laying waste to KL? That could explain Dany’s House of the Undying Vision…? Just a thought.

      The Dialogue I am looking forward to the most is Jamie with everyone at Winterfell. It would be cool if he was on trial their. Would play well with Tyrion on Trial in S4.

      Bran also better play a bigger role next season. As well Jon (Aegon) better have a great arrival in Winterfell would reflect Robert’s arrival in the first episode.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Luka Nieto:
      There’s little doubt in my mind that Cersei is the “shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire” at Euron’s side. Their alliance in the show only strenghtens this theory. Now I can see what I could never do until Aeron’s The Forsaken vision and season seven; Cersei surviving until the very end (at which point she’ll die, of course.) She might die earlier, but not that much earlier, as I and most people expected for years.

      There was a Vanity Fair article a few years ago where D&D were discussing the series and Dave said something that I didn’t quite understand at the time and now it makes perfect sense:

      David Benioff: We feel the same way, about the danger of magic taking over the story. One thing that drew us to the books is that—even though they are fantasy books and even though there are dragons and white walkers and so forth—it feels very much a human story. George was careful, I think, in the use of magic. And we don’t want it to take up too large a role on the show. But, you know, it’s there. The white walkers are there. And we are building toward something with the white walkers. But what this series will not ever become is the epic conflict of good and evil. And that’s one of the very first things we said to HBO when we came in. Every fantasy we’ve seen, in the movies at least, has been that, where it’s good versus evil. It’s like the James Bond thing you were talking about, because, in the end, you always know who is going to win. There’s never been a fantasy movie of the epic battle of good versus evil that ended with evil winning. I mean, I’d like to see that movie, but…

      A lot of people took this to mean that the Others were more complex than they really are. However, now that we suspect where the ending of the series is generally heading towards, his words make more sense.

      It won’t end in some big fight between humanity and the dead, it will be yet another battle between humans vs humans, the Game of Thrones, will continue. I think this also helps clarify what GRRM is intended upon when he speaks about bittersweet, it’s the bigger picture. While we’ve been focusing on characters death as a quota for the bitter part of the ending, I think GRRM intends to be more philosophical than literal.

      In thinking about it, at least from the show’s perspective, it would be incredibly symbolic if Cersei (and probably Jaime) death are the last major death of the series as their actions lead to the first major death of the series, Ned. That conversation about the game that Cersei and Ned had in season 1 would also be very symbolic, I think.

        Quote  Reply

    174. Moiaf: While we’ve been focusing on characters death as a quota for the bitter part of the ending, I think GRRM intends to be more philosophical than literal.

      Yes, yes, yes, yes. Death is not the only way to add bitterness to an otherwise sweet ending; mere survival is not the only way to add sweetness to an otherwise bitter ending. That’s such an oversimplification.

        Quote  Reply

    175. Fred,

      As a side note I’d love to see Cersei go to full-term and have the baby but the baby to be born with dwarfism so from its very first breath every time she looks at it she is reminded of the person she hates most, and this internal conflict results in her becoming ‘full mad queen’

      I wouldn’t wish that on an innocent babe, but yes, Karma can be a real bitch

        Quote  Reply

    176. Luka Nieto,

      So hardcore. What I find plausible about it is that it connects the vision with the whole theme of choice and the human heart being in conflict with itself and brings KL into the Night King plot.

      What more heartbreaking choice could there be than having to decide to sacrifice a city in order to save the world? I don’t know if I like Bran making that choice though. In some ways he already is no longer human so it would be much easier for him to make that decision than Dany or Jon. Alternatively that means when the time came he is almost uniquely positioned to make the call.

      But who knows if it will happen. Would be very extreme. Do you think KL is doomed and/ or the NK makes it there?

        Quote  Reply

    177. House Monty: But who knows if it will happen. Would be very extreme. Do you think KL is doomed and/ or the NK makes it there?

      Whether Cersei, Dany, Bran or the Night King is responsible, I don’t know, but I suspect King’s Landing is doomed either way.

        Quote  Reply

    178. Someone may have already said this, but I can’t read the comments without the site jumping back up to that damn BBQ sauce commercial that I’ve been forced to listen to 12 times, but I have a theory on how Varys will die, and it doesn’t involve Mad Dany. That scene in season 6 when Kinvara came to call on Tyrion and Varys will have repercussions, I’m almost certain. Look at how freaked out Varys was by her and what she had to say. Everyone was wondering how Jaime’s army stayed one step ahead of Dany in season 7. I think, for whatever unknown reason, that Varys may be a double agent. If you recall, the last thing Kinvara said to him before the scene cut was something like “If you are a true friend to our queen, then you have nothing to fear from me.” He was still terrified at the end. Add this to the fact that Melisandre foreshadowed his death, AND is heading to Volantis, where Kinvara is based, and I suspect Varys may be unmasked for a traitor and most likely put to death. Add to this his early season 7 conversation where Dany mentions his past duplicitous leanings, and I think there is something there. But… I’m usually wrong, so… I would love to see Kinvara again, though. I loved her character.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Luka Nieto,

      If KL is doomed, then that could be a huge part of the bittersweet ending. THe main characters could survive, but them processing the destruction of the capital and the death of a million people they either had to kill or couldn’t stop from being killed woulad give the ending a very melancholic feel to it.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Fred,

      ” As a side note I’d love to see Cersei go to full-term and have the baby but the baby to be born with dwarfism…”
      ———————–
      ———————–
      I think you may be onto something here!
      I’m gonna go back and rewatch Euron’s dwarf baby euthanasia taunt at the Dragon Pit.

      I’ve always wondered about the part of the Valanqar prophecy that “….when your tears have drowned you.” I couldn’t think of anything that’d make Cersei cry uncontrollably. But what you’ve suggested may do it. How would she react? How would Euron react? (Kill them both?). Would the populace spread rumors that Queen Cersei must’ve been brother-f*cking Tyrion?

        Quote  Reply

    181. StringerBelle,

      I can’t read the comments without the site jumping back up to that damn BBQ sauce commercial that I’ve been forced to listen to 12 times,

      For me its the Dignity Memorial ad with the guy on the motorcycle. Ive done everything I can to block the damned thing, even calling the corporation putting the ad out. Its eased up a little bit, but if I am on this site for any length of time, it appears again. This never happens on any other site. Ah well, I will keep persisting…..

        Quote  Reply

    182. As many have said before I don’t think that “bittersweet” means “everybody is dead”. It would be deeply unsatisfying if Daenerys dies either giving birth (lets kill that trope please!) or sacrificing herself in any way. In addition, Jon dying would also be unsatisfying but more possible than Dany kicking the bucket. However, now that their arcs are tied together, if one of them dies (or both in any case) rules out the “bittersweet” ending and makes it totally bitter.
      Having clarified that, I believe that they will survive but neither of them will sit on the throne or at least they will help establish a new sort of monarchy and leave.
      I can’t stop thinking about the LoTR ending and I believe that while many beloved characters might die, the main ones will survive although marked by the effects of the war (loved ones dead, families lost) and ultimately, the loss of magic and dragons. That is bittersweet to me.

        Quote  Reply

    183. In the throne room, only the roof was burned. Only dragon fire can burn that selectively. If memory serves, the candle holders were intact, even with unlit candles still in them. I don’t know how much to read into that, though, as the whole thing was figurative.

        Quote  Reply

    184. Carolina,

      I concur.
      I think (hope) some people are overemphasizing the “bitter” aspect of “bittersweet.” Bittersweet chocolate is still a treat, but has more chocolate and less sugar than regular milk chocolate.

      In the context of a story, I take it to mean happy but tinged with sadness. Of course, the aftermath of any cataclysmic event is going to be bittersweet for the survivors.

      Nobody expects a Disneyfied peace, love and frisbees ending to GoT. But I don’t expect it to be a total bummer either, eg, the WW are defeated but everybody’s sad and miserable.

        Quote  Reply

    185. Sean C.:
      Luka Nieto,

      “About Ramsay, I mean that despite seasons of us being told (including by Roose himself) that Ramsay’s impulsive brutality and cruelty would be his undoing, his methods in fact consistently paid off, and he only lost because of the designs of another villain.”

      Well, Roose was right. Ramsay’s brutalizing of Sansa proved to be his undoing. If he’d at least pretended to treat Sansa well (while torturing and dog-hunting other victims in his spare time), and hadn’t threatened Jon and the wildlings, he wouldn’t have had to fight the Battle of the Bastards.

        Quote  Reply

    186. Ten Bears,

      I don’t think its from the site; I think its something local; for a while it was an obnoxious Target ad that did it, and now this. Tried everything to get rid of it; it seems to have slowed down a bit but I should be careful not to jinx myself!

        Quote  Reply

    187. Wow I feel this is my favourite article on Watchers ever! I’m so pleased you guys made predictions before any spoilers leak out and interestingly your predictions largely mirror those of Kim Renfro and James Hibberd so when such well respected GOT/ASOIF journalists believe it then I pay attention.

      From my perspective I expect the following to happen:
      – We will see the aftermath of the wall falling through Tormund and Beric, I expect both to die in episode 1 as it seems unrealistic they surivive then make it past to the army of the dead to reach Winterfell.
      – In the first two episodes we see Karhold and the Umber homes fall to the Night King, we may also see Castle Black fall if they want to tie up loose ends but it depends upon what the intent of the Others/White Walkers really is.
      – I’m assuming Jon/Dany will arrive in Winterfell in episode 1, it will be a frosty welcome for them both and Jon will hear about his parentage at the end of the episode.
      – I’m expecting the Dothraki to take heavy casualties against the Army of the Dead, either that or they return to Essos before the conclusion as I don’t see how they fit into any new political system in Westeros given they are essentially savages.
      – Like you guys the set-up seems to heavily infer that Jon will be the one to take out the Night King. He could sacrifice himself in doing that, it’s the only way I see him dying myself.
      – Like you guys, Kim and James I feel one of Jon or Dany will die and the Dragon Queen seems the most likely suspect. Jon as a reluctant ruler is something I thought would happen for a while and seems the likely option.
      – Tyrion will survive but I haven’t got a clue what his S8 arc could be and notice you guys don’t speculate there either.
      – Either Jamie or Arya will take out Cersei in the final episode, I’m convinced about that.
      – The Theon/Yara story arc really seems detached again and to be honest almost feels unnecessary now. Euron should kill her, I’d guess he does but Theon will either sacrifice himself to free Yara or kill Euron. No idea how though given the size of Euron’s fleet and the fact Theon has one ship.
      – I have no idea what Cersei will do most of next season it’s possible of course she goes mad queen but so far she seems only on the verge of that.
      – Regarding the golden company I suspect they will either betray Cersei and switch sides or they will take out a force in the North which helps the Nights King.
      – You don’t really speak too much about it but a Jamie/Bran reunion is going to make great drama, I suspect this is episode 2 turmoil with them dealing with this and Jon’s heritage meanwhile the White Walkers approach Winterfell.
      – We’ve got to lose a few characters this season and my money would be on Tormund, Beric, Jamie, Cersei, Greyworm, Euron, one of Theon/Yara, one of Jon/Dany.
      – I’m convinced the story will end with Sam talking or reciting from a book about the War for the Dawn.

        Quote  Reply

    188. ghost of winterfell: My theory is that the Night King won’t be killed in a duel as such, rather they will have to find a way to remove the dragonglass lodged in his heart. What I am interested in is Bran’s role in the war for the dawn. Dany will ride her dragon, Jon will duel with more white walkers or maybe even ride Rhaegal,

      I wrote the same in the White Walkers article, my take is Bran is here to see how they were defeated last time and to instruct Jon and Dany how to do it this time.

        Quote  Reply

    189. GRRM said the most important five and key characters that would survive until the end were: Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya and Bran. They all are going to the final season now.

      Of all of them, the end i care most about is Dany’s ending. She is (since the very start), my favorite character and i just want a end that will fit with all her journey in the series.

      Some people are thinking that Dany and Jon could probably die and this would be a tragic ending, and i don’t see happening. The producers will be very cautious with all the fan favorites ending. They will have spin offs after GoT you know. they will want people to watch the spin offs and they won’t risk to lose the audience with some very bad move.

      Dany won’t die in childbirth. That would be the lamest end ever. Dany is a fan favorite and lots of people would be furious and ready to fight if this could happen. I would be the first to fight. I also think the ending will not be shocking and for sure not tragic as some are thinking. It will be something in the middle. Sad but also happy in some ways.

      Dany will 100% sure get pregnant and Dany and Jon will very likely marry too. I think that Dany and Jon will know about the reveal very soon in season 8, and i don’t think this will change their relationship. They are in love. Of course a little drama will have to take place, but with so much happening and NK getting close to all of them, they won’t have time for too much drama. I think Jon will only have a conflict about the whole thing about ned don’t being his real father. I mean..it will be a lot to process. I’m more interest to see Dany’s reaction at first.

      Jon and Night King will for sure have a full big fight at the end, and i don’t know..i feel like everything could happen. Jon will kill night king (i mean, this is his mission now), but he could die in the process having to make a huge sacrifice, or he will for sure still kill the night king, but something very bad will still happen. I just now that Jon will 100% sure kill him.

      Jon and Dany will have to deal with nigh king first and then after i think they will deal with cersei. I think maybe cersei will really be the last big bad to be
      defeated. This will b interesting to see. Some think night kill will be the last big bad to die, but then it will be cersei. Jaime will for sure die making a ultimate sacrifice that will mark his redemption arc. It would be a amazing full circle to see jaime doing something to protect bran, and then dying just after. imagine that.

      Arya will 100% survive, i think. Clegane Bowl will happen, and the hound will have his victory.

        Quote  Reply

    190. I don’t believe GRRM said the characters would survive the story just that it will follow those characters to the end. That was also in the initial outline which had a love triangle between Tyrion, Arya and Jon so we cannot give it 100% credibility.

        Quote  Reply

    191. Kevin1989: This is already long, but my prediction, considering all of this, is that Daenerys will successfully conquer Westeros (I don’t see her going mad, per se, but I do think it is possible that she will do something very violent and problematic to finally win). However, I think her and her unborn child will both die during the season, and Jon will be in a position to take the throne that is his by right

      I suspect Jamie will meet with the others in episode 2, my rationale for this is to allow focus on Jon/Arya reunion, the northerners reacting to Dany and potentially everyone finding out Jon is the heir to the throne.

      Of course as he’s travelling alone it’s easy for him to miss the first episode or perhaps stop at the Inn at the Cross roads and meet another character like Bronn or Pod?

        Quote  Reply

    192. I’m incredibly late to the game here after being away for a few weeks but slowly trying to catch up as I would usually check this site daily!

      I don’t have any outlandish guesses as to what could happen but my one fear would be that either Tormund or Davos turns into a wight that Jon (or somebody else) has to then kill. I would find that incredibly sad – therefore it’s probably going to happen!

      Awol was right in an earlier post saying that Beric will probably ‘pass on’ his life to Sandor so that he can then kill the Mountain although how will Beric do this without Thoros?

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *