George RR Martin explains writing delays & GOT prequels; Maisie Williams admits playing Arya affected her body image

georgerrmartin

In a recent interview at The Chicago Way w/John Kass, A Song of Ice and Fire author George R.R. Martin didn’t just discuss Jane Goldman’s prequel pilot, which has just finished filming, and how The Winds of Winter is coming along, but also provided a fascinating insight into his writing process. As any writer knows, much of the writing process doesn’t involve ‘writing’ at all, and it turns out that’s true for Martin as well.

“If my writing is going well, and I’m really ‘in Westeros,’ it does haunt me day and night, and one of the times when it’s most common is when I go to bed at night. I’m laying there in bed; waiting to go to sleep; the lights are out; and the scenes that I’m gonna write tomorrow are in my head. Or maybe the scenes I’m gonna write next week, or maybe the scenes from a different chapter. I don’t know–I can’t control it, but something starts filling my head and the characters start coming alive, and I start hearing snatches of dialogue, and I drift to sleep with Westeros and Ice and Fire in my head, haunting me.”

“When I was still living in Chicago,” Martin continues, “I’d take the L [Chicago’s elevated train system] every day to work. It’s not the most exciting ride in the world, so I’d sit there, staring at the window, and stories would fill my head. Not necessarily [because of] the things that I was seeing on the rooftops of Chicago–but other planets, imaginary realms, and all of that. So it’s almost a case where you’re zoning out; you’re riding on the L and it’s boring or you’re drifting to sleep and you’re not quite asleep yet, but you’re not awake [anymore] either, and then the stuff comes to you.”

As many suspected and the author has intimated before, this crucial ritual of reflection is not exclusively reserved for the world of Westeros and The Winds of Winter -his sixth book in the series- anymore, as other projects have come to divide his attention:

“Of course, what’s happened in my life recently is that there’s so much else now,” Martin admits. “The success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and I’m not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want to–I’m thinking about some other problem I’m having; one of the other shows I’m involved with; or a deadline on an anthology I’m editing; or something that’s happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thing’s that’s delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; I’ve really have to put myself on a state where I’m not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.”

The show coming to an end has freed his mind a fair bit, but as we know new projects have sprung up to take its place: “There was a period where the show caught and past me, and I hadn’t anticipated that happening, so there was a tremendous amount of stress on me a few years ago when that was about to happen but hadn’t happened yet, and I was desperately trying to finish Winds and stay ahead. And it didn’t work. The amount of stress that was on me at the time slowed me down rather than speeding me up. Now that the show’s over, any stress in that regard is done, but of course, we have five successor shows in various stages of development–and one of them’s just finished shooting the pilot episode in Northern Ireland; another one’s very close to getting a pilot order. I’m involved with those as well. Game of Thrones, that particular story, may be over on TV, but it’s not over for me–I still have these two more books to write. And there’s other stories in the world of Westeros, which is an entire world, and I’m still deeply involved with those. So there’s still plenty to keep me busy.”

At the beginning of season three, Williams had literally outgrown her character.

By the beginning of season three, Williams had literally outgrown her character.

At Vogue, on a fashion-centered piece, Maisie Williams discusses how playing Arya, a tomboy had to often pass for a boy, affected her self-image, and how she got past it:

“A couple of seasons in the middle, maybe around season two or three, my body started to mature, and I started to become a woman. But Arya was still very much trying to be disguised as a boy, and I had really short hair, and they constantly covered me in dirt and shade my nose so as it looked really broad and I look really manly. And they’d also put this strap across my chest to flatten any ‘growth’ that had started”.

“I don’t know–that just felt horrible,” Maisie admits. “And I felt kind of ashamed for a while. So we’ve got this new phase of my style. It’s nice to look more feminine, and have a real waistline, and embrace the body that I have.”

370 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. For those waiting for your books, I hope you get them. I’ll always be grateful to George for creating this world, but Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss took control and gave me the rest of the story. The ending is out there and it was a marvelous and magnificent ride. I’ll never know how they did it, but they did the near impossible and wrapped up this behemoth. What an amazing feat.

        Quote  Reply

    2. I can’t imagine how hard it was for Maisie to grow up in front of the whole world.

      I think it was easier in a way for Sophie because her character was written as atractive. But they did their job to make Arya unattractive, especially in S2-4. And for a young girl or boy to be intentionally made unattractive in front of millions of people was frustrating for sure. No matter the amount of money she earned.

        Quote  Reply

    3. In other words, as long as there is any interest at all in Game of Thrones prequels, sequels or side books or any other franchises of GRRM’s, he’s not going to finish this book series.
      And as that’s not going to happen for at least 10 years in the current climate of safe choices and remakes and sequels/prequels, and as there are at least 2 books to go, this basically confirms that he is never going to finish the books, ever.

      I’ve know this, deep down, for a while now, but it’s still painful to be reminded.

        Quote  Reply

    4. dee,

      At least now that the show is over that popular conspiracy theory that HBO is forcing him not to finish his books can finally die.

      No more excuses, no more blame games.

        Quote  Reply

    5. Many Faced Goddess indeed, Ten Bears!

      mau,

      I completely agree with you. Much was made of Sansa looks and desirability in a marriage contract while Arya was overlooked and then forced to travel as a boy for safety.
      I’ve read that both girls suffered from negative comments which were quite painful as young teens. I’m glad they had each other to lean on and have come out on the other side with professional help. Both young women deserve accolades for continuing to bring us their characters.

      George may never finish the books but we know, basically, how this epic story ends. Then there is always fanfic or our own personal versions. It is what it is.

        Quote  Reply

    6. dee,

      Looks like you’re right…

      According to GRRM: Of course, what’s happened in my life recently is that there’s so much else now,” Martin admits. “The success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and I’m not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want to–I’m thinking about some other problem I’m having; one of the other shows I’m involved with; or a deadline on an anthology I’m editing; or something that’s happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thing’s that’s delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; I’ve really have to put myself on a state where I’m not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.”

      Translation: “I’m preoccupied with other things. I’m not writing TWOW.”
      [GRRM interior monologue: “I’m cranky. Jets are 0-4. Got blown out yesterday by the Eagles, 31-6. Now go away and leave me alone.”]

        Quote  Reply

    7. mau:
      “…But they did their job to make Arya unattractive, especially in S2-4. And for a young girl or boy to be intentionally made unattractive in front of millions of people was frustrating for sure….”

      And yet, by S7…

      “I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!”
      – Hot Pie

        Quote  Reply

    8. Ten Bears,

      Yeah. But by the time she did S7 she was older and had more confidence. I think it would have been easier for Maisie if she was pretty in the first half of the show. In the second half I think she would have handled it much better.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Ten Bears:
      dee,

      Looks like you’re right…

      According to GRRM: Of course, what’s happened in my life recently is that there’s so much else now,” Martin admits. “The success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and I’m not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want to–I’m thinking about some other problem I’m having; one of the other shows I’m involved with; or a deadline on an anthology I’m editing; or something that’s happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thing’s that’s delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; I’ve really have to put myself on a state where I’m not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.”

      Translation: “I’mpreoccupied with other things. I’m not writing TWOW.”
      [GRRM interior monologue: “I’m cranky. Jets are 0-4. Got blown out yesterday by the Eagles, 31-6. Now go away and leave me alone.”]

      You’d think that Jets fans would be used to this by now.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Ten Bears,

      Oh, and although it was all too brief*, I thought Arya/Maisie looked especially beautiful in this S8e4 scene (riding away from WF; at 0:15 – 0:19 + 1:12 – 1:19 [end]).

      * This scene of Arya riding off with Sandor was barely a minute and twenty seconds long. They should’ve extended it to a full one-hour episode. Or an entire season. Or a spin-off show.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Mr Derp:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      D&D’s burner account confirmed!

      Ha ha! 🤣
      You know, I’ve been a steadfast defender of JB when some folks get on his case. Still, I can understand how repetitive comments fawning over D&D shoehorned into comments sections can raise hackles after a while.
      It does seem like the effusive praise could be coming from a “D&D burner account.” Or maybe the work of a bot army in a Russian troll farm.

      At the same time, I’m the last one to complain about injecting off-topic commentary: I’ve been guilty of more than my fair share of Arya Thread Derailments. ⚠️🚂👸🏻🗡

      #ASNAWP

        Quote  Reply

    12. I think someone needs to plant some hidden voice boxes in GRRM’s bedroom..whispering….Ghost says, “Jon….wooof wooof….wake up Jon….wooof…ayooooooo…You’re not dead….get up I need to go out…” Arya says, “Help, get me out of Bravos I want to go home already…it’s been 8 fn years…….” Other words of encouragement to get those voices back in his head…

        Quote  Reply

    13. Ten Bears: Ha ha! 🤣
      You know, I’ve been a steadfast defender of JB when some folks get on his case. Still, I can understand how repetitive comments fawning over D&D shoehorned into comments sections can raise hackles after a while. It does seem like the effusive praise could be coming from a “D&D burner account.”Or maybe the work of a bot army in a Russian troll farm.

      At the same time, I’m the last one to complain about injecting off-topic commentary: I’ve been guilty of more than my fair share of Arya Thread Derailments. ⚠️🚂👸🏻🗡

      #ASNAWP

      🙂 Yea, I’m just poking fun at it at this point. There’s only so much unnecessary ass-kissing I can handle before I need to make light of it. I’ve reached the saturation point.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Mr Derp,

      JB was always the best at being the first with awesome news links before anyone else. I remember many times he had a great link to an interview or something else before anyone else saw it.. He also was right on about certain predictions, such as when a trailer might be dropped…I hope he finds some pre-quel news for us too.

        Quote  Reply

    15. Tron79,

      Eh, stalking people’s twitter accounts all day can definitely provide a lot of information, but I don’t know how much credit is deserved. Anyone can do that. I’m sure others were thankful though. I have nothing personal against Jack. He’s generally a nice guy. The repetitive statement in every thread is starting to get obnoxious though and feels a bit like trolling, so I’m just poking fun of it at this point in as lighthearted a way as possible.

      Were you around WOTW a year or two ago though? Dude was driving everyone crazy around here for months. He was obsessed with telling everyone that the latest season (season 6 I think?) was going to be cancelled simply because there was no official announcement of a red carpet premiere date. It was brutal. Just giving him a dose of his own medicine 😉

        Quote  Reply

    16. I can understand the reasons behind the delays. And I will wait patiently until the next book comes out. And I’m still hopeful winds will be on the shelve next year, and I’m probably be made fun of for even thinking it. But if it’s later then its later.

      But I can’t understand if he knows what keeps him from writing his main story, his main project. He keeps on adding multiple projects to the list. I can understand that HBO doesn’t want to wait, but then let them just work on it on themselves.

      And I’m happy Maissie has found the confidence she deserves, she is by far ugly, and she shouldn’t think that about herself. Just be yourself, she seems sweet and fun girl to be with.

      Ten Bears,

      I always love your videos.

      Iul:
      #WoW2020
      First half of 2020 even…

      Personally I still hope winds will be out before July 2020. Not only for reading the books, but more to show the ones constantly pulling GRRM down for his delays. It starts to get annoying when people are always negative about things. At least the people who suspects winds to be out before July 2020 are having a positive look at it. And it’s not even realistic when stating he won’t finish his books before that time. Because nobody knows how far he is with winds. He states in this interview why he is delayed. Not how far he is with winds.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Tron79:
      I think someone needs to plant some hidden voice boxes in GRRM’s bedroom..whispering….Ghost says, “Jon….wooof wooof….wake up Jon….wooof…ayooooooo…You’re not dead….get up I need to go out…”Arya says,“Help, get me out of Bravos I want to go home already…it’s been 8 fn years…….” Other words of encouragement to get those voices back in his head…

      hahahahaha, or let the captain of the jets make a helping tape that he can play. “George the faith of the jets is in your hands. We can’t win any matched until you have finish Winds of winter and Dream of springs. You are our only hope.”
      Winds of winter released on November 1st 2019. Dream of springs announced to be released on Christmas in 2020.

      Still I’m 100% behind the big Kahoona (write it that way Ten bears?).

        Quote  Reply

    18. Maisie always looked cute to me, muddy make-up and matted, short hair notwithstanding. It was those beautiful eyes, and the prodigious cheeks – you could see she would mature into a pretty woman. She’ll probably age better than any of the other women in the cast, except, perhaps, for Nathalie Emmanuel and Lena Heady.
      Such success early in life is a two-edged sword, and hopefully she will not only survive it, but also continue to build on it.

        Quote  Reply

    19. Mr Derp,

      I don’t remember that, but yes I’ve been around since many blood moons ago…
      I remember that year there were awesome shots of Maisie filming in the water (when later on we found out that’s when the waif stabbed her and Maisie jumped into the water). WOTW definitely kept me going that year with lots of great filming shots. It was harder for me when they got better with their security. I didn’t think seeing those filming shots were huge spoilers. I still didn’t know what was going to happen, but I loved seeing them.

      Here’s one of the articles I remembered…
      http://watchersonthewall.com/new-photos-of-maisie-williams-filming-today-in-northern-ireland/

        Quote  Reply

    20. Tron79,

      The problem is, even with hidden voice boxes whispering pleas from Ghost, Arya and Jon, they’ll be drowned out by all the other sounds and images swimming in G’s head.
      From his own description of his creative process [excerpted below], I don’t see how he can hope to have the ASOIAF characters “come alive” again so long as his attention is diverted by other shows, anthologies, his non-profit organization, and other projects that seem to excite him more.
      It doesn’t sound like he can “force” himself to finish TWOW, and his muse won’t return unless he jettisons all of these other projects that compete for space in his head.
      Maybe he ought to shelve all of those other projects, and eliminate distractions. (Aren’t there medications to treat attention deficit disorders that would help him focus?)
      So long as there are other “shiny objects” that command his attention, it’ll be too easy to keep putting off work on the books.
      I still say he should just throw in the towel and announce to the world that he’s not finishing the books. Then, if somehow the inspiration returns and he finishes writing them in a few weeks in a frenzy of creativity, it will be an unexpected surprise.
      _______
      GRRM:
      ”If my writing is going well, and I’m really ‘in Westeros,’ it does haunt me day and night, and one of the times when it’s most common is when I go to bed at night. I’m laying there in bed; waiting to go to sleep; the lights are out; and the scenes that I’m gonna write tomorrow are in my head. Or maybe the scenes I’m gonna write next week, or maybe the scenes from a different chapter. I don’t know–I can’t control it, but something starts filling my head and the characters start coming alive, and I start hearing snatches of dialogue, and I drift to sleep with Westeros and Ice and Fire in my head, haunting me.”
      ****
      Of course, what’s happened in my life recently is that there’s so much else now,” Martin admits. “The success of the show and other things has injected a lot of other aspects into my life. So sometimes I lay in bed at night and I’m not thinking about Westeros, even thought I may want to–I’m thinking about some other problem I’m having; one of the other shows I’m involved with; or a deadline on an anthology I’m editing; or something that’s happening with the non-profit organization that I started. All of these other things are filling my head and that is one of the thing’s that’s delayed me. I really have to get Winds done; I’ve really have to put myself on a state where I’m not being distracted by other stuff, and that period at night is filled with the voices of Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark and the other fictional characters who live inside of me.”

        Quote  Reply

    21. 3eyes:
      Maisie always looked cute to me, muddy make-up and matted, short hair notwithstanding. It was those beautiful eyes, and the prodigious cheeks – you could see she would mature into a pretty woman….

      Yes. Those beautiful eyes…

      “You have very expressive eyes, Mercy. Wonderful eyebrows.”
      – Lady Crane S6e6:

        Quote  Reply

    22. kevin1989,

      Sadly, no, JB couldn’t help me find my keys. But he did nail the trailer release date, and the S8 premier date as well, I think.
      He also frequently was the first to find new cast interviews, articles and other show updates.

        Quote  Reply

    23. I would get so excited upon seeing JB’s comments, because they so often included something new about Season 8… oh, January to March… that was a sweet, sweet time of hype… so thank you for that, Jack Bauer 24! 🙂

      Yet now, it almost seems (a word that rhymes with litterwheat).

        Quote  Reply

    24. I feel for Maisie.

      Even now, at age 22, and even after her partially nude scene in the last season, the internet is rife with people who say she still looks 12 to them.

      Some people are just incapable of seeing her as anything other than a child. And god forbid someone dare to say they find her attractive, lest they be branded “pedophiles” by mobs of angry internet “villagers”.

      Must feel very toxic and embarrassing for her.

        Quote  Reply

    25. 3eyes:
      Maisie always looked cute to me, muddy make-up and matted, short hair notwithstanding. It was those beautiful eyes, and the prodigious cheeks – you could see she would mature into a pretty woman. She’ll probably age better than any of the other women in the cast, except, perhaps, for Nathalie Emmanuel and Lena Heady.
      Such success early in life is a two-edged sword, and hopefully she will not only survive it, but also continue to build on it.

      I agree with every word you wrote. 👍

        Quote  Reply

    26. 3eyes,

      I thought she did too; a little rough between the edges but it was a disguise to make sure no one knew who she was (so in a sense, she was always No One!) but she always looked good. I can imagine her having trouble with body image; it looks like shes confident now, and she should be (and can we please have a law telling all child actors to stay off social media!!!! There are so many damn trolls and horrible people that just want to through filth around matter how much it might hurt another.

      I suspect she is not the only child actor who has to be wrapped – usually its to keep them from looking older. I do wonder how if there was another way to approach this (thinking of how I was growing at that age, the very thought of it makes me hurt!)

        Quote  Reply

    27. Oh, and at this point, I care not a bit about GRRMs trouble with his writing. Im grateful for what he created, but he didn’t finishe the job and keeps talking about it – just don’t want to hear about it anymore

        Quote  Reply

    28. ash,

      ”Oh, and at this point, I care not a bit about GRRM’s trouble with his writing. I’m grateful for what he created, but he didn’t finish the job and keeps talking about it – just don’t want to hear about it anymore.”

      ______
      Yeah. He really ought to consider refraining from explanations and excuses. I’m a “pre-books” fan, and I can’t imagine how frustrated book readers must be after… how many years has it been? (Didn’t the most recent book – the fifth book – come out in 2011 or 2012? If so, that’d be a 7 or 8 years and counting as of 2019.)

      That’s why I say he should throw in the towel and just tell everyone, including himself, that he’s given up. Why beat himself up or endure further haranguing from disappointed fans?

      Forgive the sports metaphor: A little over a month ago, the Indianapolis Colts’ star quarterback Andrew Luck shocked Colts fans by announcing his retirement at age 29, citing a recurring cycle of injuries and rehabbing from injuries.

      Here’s how Andrew Luck explained his decision to walk away in his prime:

      “I’ve been stuck in this process. I haven’t been able to live the life I want to live. It’s taken the joy out of this game. The only way forward for me is to remove myself from football. This is not an easy decision. It’s the hardest decision of my life. But it is the right decision for me.”

      Substitute a few words and George could borrow that speech.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Ten Bears: Yes. Those beautiful eyes…

      “You have very expressive eyes, Mercy. Wonderful eyebrows.”– Lady Crane S6e6:

      It was so satisfying to hear Lady Crane say it! I maintain that Arya should have her own Anime series. So sayeth 3eyes.

        Quote  Reply

    30. 3eyes: I maintain that Arya should have her own Anime series. So sayeth 3eyes.

      Yes! I feel that way about non-Daenerys Emilia Clarke too! They both should have their own anime series, they are both so naturally expressive!

        Quote  Reply

    31. Ser Creighton Longbough,

      How kind, Ser

      ash: (so in a sense, she was always No One!)

      Truly, she had to become No-One as soon as she left Syrio’s protection.

      ash: I suspect she is not the only child actor who has to be wrapped – usually its to keep them from looking older.

      I’m reminded of what Judy Garland had to go through to look young enough to play Dorothy.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Adrianacandle: Yes! I feel that way about non-Daenerys Emilia Clarke too! They both should have their own anime series, they are both so naturally expressive!

      Agreed – Emilia’s interviews are fun to watch because of this.

        Quote  Reply

    33. I honestly think he should just give up, admit he can’t finish it the way he wanted and have a full Q&A describing what his plans were.

        Quote  Reply

    34. 3eyes: So many in the cast were great at acting with facial expression and body language. We’ve been spoilt, haven’t we?

      Absolutely! I think we got very lucky with this cast! 💖 🙂 💖

        Quote  Reply

    35. Mr Derp,

      Yep, during S7 JB was a pain in the ass! So many questions and complaints regarding episodes and scenes that he wasn’t happy with. I didn’t give a second thought as to where the WW’s got chains from to pull Viserion out of the frozen lake or how did Jaime and Bronn manage to escape wearing armour from the river. I had a go at him several times as did other posters in the group 😉
      However, JB was very complimentary about (and during) S8 and I never saw any posts asking silly questions. I’ll give him credit though regarding his predications regarding trailer release dates, etc leading up to S8. He was pretty much spot on.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Good interviews. My patience with GRRM is at its lowest ebb. He said some months ago he would lock himself in an isolated cabin to finish WoW. But he’s still haring about, from signing up for new projects, to discussing more prequels to attending cons, to considering Fire and Blood Part deux. I hold a D Phil in Creative Procrastination, but our George is the God of Procrastination. Get on with it, man!

      Ten Bears,

      “This scene of Arya riding off with Sandor was barely a minute and twenty seconds long. They should’ve extended it to a full one-hour episode. Or an entire season. Or a spin-off show.”

      Cheers, that’s the spirit. That scene is a joy–those two are like an old married couple. They know each other’s mind and finish each other’s sentences. As Sandor pointed out in Series 8 Episode 2, Arya doesn’t talk much now. But she always sings her terse duet with HIM.

      Maisie has previously mentioned the wrapping and her adolescent reaction to it. Does anyone have an easy time with puberty? For her to be busting out and having to hide it must have been hard. And she was in the international spotlight to boot. She’s over it now, and rather a fashion icon. What she needed then was a real-life Sandor:

      So it hurts? And so you can’t look pretty? F**k pretty. Lots of c**ts look pretty. Only you can be Arya Stark of Winterfell. You’re alive, aren’t you? Your father’s dead, your mum is dead, your auntie in the Eyrie is dead. Be a cold little bitch and you won’t join them! And FFS, stop whingeing.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Nick20,

      That’s because she’s small and has a young face. I have that same problem. When I was 20, I looked 12. Now I am 39, I look 20. People always say it’s a compliment, but the problem is noone takes you serious.

        Quote  Reply

    38. 3eyes: Agreed – Emilia’s interviews are fun to watch because of this.

      Non-Cersei Lena Headey is also a joy to watch in interviews.
      And she’s also the best narrator in the Episode Commentaries. (I love how she fangirls over Maisie Williams, e.g., the S4e10 Episode Commentary: “Brillianr. She’s just brilliant.”)

        Quote  Reply

    39. More like “What does the God of Procrastination say?” ;p

      XD I’m laughing at a lot of those comments. No idea whether this’ll go through, though, since my “Best Quote” choices absolutely refused to on all platforms. A few others wouldn’t either.
      It just stinks because not only doesn’t George seem to truly prioritize ASoIaF over all the prequels and side stories and all this other stuff he’s always doing, but he’s apparently unable to even give a WoW “progress report” or approximate percentage of where he’s at. That’d be cool. Better than just another of these “nothing to report”-type interviews. Worst-case scenario, I guess, is he eventually realizes he’s got to state that the books aren’t getting finished, and just release an outline/synopsis of what was going to happen next. (So much for the “lock me in an isolated cabin” thing?)

      Of course I’m suitably super-grateful to him and to everybody without whom we wouldn’t have Westeros/GoT (or we’d have a lesser one.) I’m particularly thankful to have been introduced to the cast. So easy to find your new favorite among those ranks. Mine is Carice, the biggest little bundle of beautiful talent I’ve ever seen and the cutest sweetie I’ve ever “awwww”‘d at. She also looked like a baby-faced teen in her 20s and has continued to look way younger than her age.

        Quote  Reply

    40. shelle,

      ”More like “What does the God of Procrastination say?” ;p”

      _____
      I know! That was my first thought, and I was going to edit my Comment…but didn’t want to complicate the play on the Syrio/Arya Q & A.

      What does the God of Procrastination say?”
      “Not today.”

      … doesn’t have quite the same ring to it, though it would be more a more accurate rhetorical Q & A for the Big Kahuna, i.e., putting off ‘til tomorrow what he should do today, every day for 2,000+ days.

      (And now back to Arya/MaisieTalk. 👸🏻🗡)

        Quote  Reply

    41. shelle,

      ”… Of course I’m suitably super-grateful to him and to everybody without whom we wouldn’t have Westeros/GoT (or we’d have a lesser one.) I’m particularly thankful to have been introduced to the cast. So easy to find your new favorite among those ranks…”

      _____
      So true!
      • There were so many accomplished, brilliant Irish and British actors I never would have seen (I’m in the U.S.) were it not for GoT.
      • For me, it’s no secret that Rory McCann and Maisie Williams were my co-favorites “among those ranks.”
      • I was also impressed how the show was able to cast big name actresses and actors in brief, supporting roles or one-off cameos, e.g.:
      Essie Davis as Lady Crane
      Richard E. Grant as Izemborro (sp?)
      Birgitte Hort-Sorensen as Karsi
      Max von Sydow as 3ER
      Ian McShane as Brother Ray

      I’m sure I’m forgetting many more.

      • Reading that you’re “particularly thankful to have been introduced to the cast” made me think wistfully about George’s palpable excitement back in 2010 or 2011 during the process of casting actors to play his characters on the show. I’ve read some of his old blog and “LiveJournal” posts. He would pose clever riddles for his readers about the identity of actors who’d been cast. He was intimately involved in the production. He was super-psyched about his books coming to life on the screen.
      It’s kind of sad that he’s “lost that lovin’ feeling.”

      • P.S. It’s particularly entertaining to revisit G’s old blog posts that introduce the unknown child actors chosen to play Bran, Sansa and Arya. The passage of time has confirmed that G’s predictions about MW, IHW and ST were right on the money.
      It’s particularly interesting to read his book reader fans’ comments about the casting of the then-unknown child actors (e.g., how they looked just like the readers imagined based only on tiny head shot photos).

        Quote  Reply

    42. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      God, I’ll miss the Sandor-Arya Snarkathons.

      Even in that brief S8e4 segment (Sandor leaving WF headed to KL, joined by Arya), these two snippets make me smile every time:

      • At 0:10 – 0:15 (Sandor notices Arya coming up behind him, throws down his beef jerky, and exclaims…)
      Sandor: “For f*ck’s sake!”

      • At 1:08 – 1:18 (After both talk about going to KL for “unfinished business”)

      Sandor: “You going to leave me to die again if I get hurt?
      (Pause…)
      Arya: “Probably.”
      (They both chuckle)
      [*TB chuckles*]

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wb6w177bGk

      Misc. thought… I sometimes wonder if the showrunners skimped on the Arya + Jon relationship after they realized how they’d struck gold with Sandor/Rory + Arya/Maisie.

        Quote  Reply

    43. So for those following my book journey, I made it to Arya II today.
      And it was worth it. What was my true reaction. I litterally was in tears. I can’t remember that happening when reading before. It’s not really a spoiler since similar things happen in the show, but the way GRRM takes you through Arya having to give up her possessions is making me tear up now while writing this. So for Arya fans, it’s definitely worth it. There were also several other things I won’t go in to that could have been done in the show… In the show she was mainly sweeping, and she was doing a few other things as well in the book. I don’t consider this a major spoiler, so I’ll mention it that in the book the Jaqen character from the show (kindly man in the book) has her practice making faces (like moving her eyebrows, sticking out her tongue..just getting used to how her face works in the mirror). Can you imagine letting Maisie do this? She’s so expressive with her eyes and face, this would have been amazing to watch.

      Maybe it’s because I’m doing the boiled leather experience, but I’m loving these books so far. They don’t seem bogged down at all. I’m getting some great twists and surprises. Coming from someone who knows the show really well, I am constantly getting surprised by story twists and strategies that weren’t in the show…

      Another WHOA OMG moment was when Cersei plots to kill Jon by sending 100 of her people to the Night’s Watch to secretly plot to kill Jon. She is sleeping with Osney Kettleblack (I think that’s his name). And after seducing him again, she convinces him to first sleep with Margaery and then get sent to the Wall for his crime. He would then kill Jon for her with her promising herself as his reward… Jaime is also alot more jealous of Cersei’s bedmates in the book constantly naming them off in his head almost like Arya names off her list! I know from book readers and the show that Jon will get killed in the last book just like the show, but it sounds like the reason may be very very different in the books!! It’s much more interesting and intriguing to follow all of the various strategizing.

      I also thought about Cersei’s show line to Joffrey about the truth being whatever you say it is. There were scenes where people actually spun the red wedding to blame Robb for killing their bannersman after he turned into a wolf and attacked them! The legend went on that if the wolf bit them they might turn into a wolf (like a werewolf legend).

      (also the many faced god explanation makes alot more sense in the books too with explaining how all that came to be…)

      There’s a ton happening that’s not in the show, and I’m really enjoying it. It’s like a new world I’m discovering. I’m trying to take notes in my phone notes app to remember all the differences and my reactions at the time. In the books, there is a similar scene with the Iron Born on the campaign stump campaigning for the Salt throne (Seastone chair in books). It’s much much better in the books. The show abbreviates the scene. In the books, there are more funny characters with their followers who try to convince everyone that they are worthy of the throne. It reminded me a little of the Edmure scene in the show finally when he said he was experienced in “State craft”… Just so many great Iron Born character names that I can’t remember now without going back to the text. Loved it!! Yara is Asha in the books…

      So, I have plenty more to talk about, but I have to get ready for our choir with another Jewish holiday with Yom Kippur starting tonight and going all day tomorrow… Once that’s over I will be back to my journey…. Only 28 chapters to the next Ayra chapter though…but I can make it… This Arya II chapter will stay with me for a very long time…OMG I’m starting to tear up again..I’m not kidding… So great…

        Quote  Reply

    44. Tron79,

      ”So for those following my book journey, I made it to Arya II today. And it was worth it. What was my true reaction. I literally was in tears. I can’t remember that happening when reading before. It’s not really a spoiler since similar things happen in the show, but the way GRRM takes you through Arya having to give up her possessions is making me tear up now while writing this. So for Arya fans, it’s definitely worth it.”

      _____
      • Yes! I am following your book journey.
      • Life Goals: “Making it to the next Arya chapter.”
      • From your description of the passage that brought you to tears (“Arya having to give up her possessions”), it sounds like you’re referring to the famous “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue. That is one of the handful of book passages I’ve read, and as I’ve said before, I thought Maisie Williams brilliantly captured the emotions of that passage with facial expressions alone.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”So for those following my book journey, I made it to Arya II today. And it was worth it. What was my true reaction. I literally was in tears. I can’t remember that happening when reading before. It’s not really a spoiler since similar things happen in the show, but the way GRRM takes you through Arya having to give up her possessions is making me tear up now while writing this. So for Arya fans, it’s definitely worth it.”

      _____• Yes! I am following your book journey.• Life Goals: “Making it to the next Arya chapter.”• From your description of the passage that brought you to tears (“Arya having to give up her possessions”), it sounds like you’re referring to the famous “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue. That is one of the handful of book passages I’ve read, and as I’ve said before, I thought Maisie Williams brilliantly captured the emotions of that passage with facial expressions alone.

      Sorry for my use of “literally” in my post btw. I was emotional at the time and didn’t catch myself.

      Yes you are correct. My life goal is to make it to the next Arya chapter!

        Quote  Reply

    46. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      So it hurts? And so you can’t look pretty? F**k pretty. Lots of c**ts look pretty. Only you can be Arya Stark of Winterfell. You’re alive, aren’t you? Your father’s dead, your mum is dead, your auntie in the Eyrie is dead. Be a cold little bitch and you won’t join them! And FFS, stop whingeing.

      Hell yeah!!! Hee, wonder if Rory actually said that to her; woulda made her laugh if nothing else

        Quote  Reply

    47. Ten Bears,

      You two made me tear up but in a good way.
      This scene is so moving because of Maisie’s wonderful face. Her eyes have always drawn me to Arya’s scenes.
      We truly were lucky to have such a talented cast who were capable of relaying so much emotion with a lip twitch, a raise of an eyebrow or the merest hint of a smile.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Tron79,

      I agree that chapter was just great. Beautiful how she puts it there. And in the books the waif is much nicer, so I wonder which path Arya will take to get home.

      And agree the books are not bogged down, there’s a lot happening in the books, and what I love is the mystery in those books and that plans are revealed, but only a little. Cersei’s plan is amazing. Then we have Tyrion who is having a plan but somehow the chapters cut before he things off it. And of course LF plan. And the seastone chair. What’s your opinion about that, should the plot to the kingsmoot only have been through Asha’s view or how GRRM did was better with Damphair and victorion (if I’m not mistaken) also having a chapter? And what do you think of book version of Euron. That guy scare me more than Ramsay or Joffrey.

      I would also suggest too read the released chapters of winds, they are amazing, one had me shad tears of happiness. (not the Arya chapter another one).

        Quote  Reply

    49. Tron79,

      For the Day of Atonement:

      (S6e7 – Sandor & Brother Ray)
      Sandor: “You didn’t know me back in my time. You don’t know the things I’ve done.”
      Ray: “I’ve heard stories.”
      Sandor: “If the gods are real why haven’t they punished me?”
      Ray: “They have.”

      (S6e8 – Beric & Sandor)
      Beric: “You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane. It’s not too late for you.”

      (S4e3 [Clip below*] – After Sandor assaults and robs Rabbit Stew Sally’s father)
      ***
      Arya: “He took us in! He fed us! And you–“
      Sandor: “Aye, he took us in. He’s a good man and his daughter makes a nice stew. And they’ll both be dead come winter.”
      Arya: “You don’t know that!”
      Sandor: “I do know it. He’s weak.
      He can’t protect himself. They’ll both be dead come winter. Dead men don’t need silver.”
      Arya: “You’re the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!”

      (S7e1 – Sandor, joined by Thoros, burying the bodies of Rabbit Stew Sally and her father)
      Sandor: “We ask the Father to judge us with mercy. We ask the Mother to… F*ck it, I don’t remember the rest. I’m sorry you’re dead. You deserved better. Both of you.”

      (S4e10 – Brienne vs. Sandor)
      Sandor: “…There is no safety, you dumb bitch. You don’t know that by now, you’re the wrong one to watch over her.”
      Brienne (sarcastically): “And that’s what you’re doing? Watching over her?”
      Sandor: “Aye. That’s what I’m doing.”

      (S8e2 – Sandor & Arya on WF battlements)
      ***
      Arya: “…No, I mean, what are you doing up here? You joined the Brotherhood. You went beyond the Wall with Jon. You’re here now. Why? When was the last time you fought for anyone but yourself?
      Sandor: “I fought for you, didn’t I?”

      —-
      (S8e5 – Sandor convinces Arya to forego revenge)
      ***
      Sandor: “You think you wanted revenge a long time? I’ve been after it all my life. It’s all I care about. And look at me…
      Look at me! 
 You want to be like me?”
(He gently cups his hand on the back of her head and looks in her eyes)
 “You come with me, you die here.”
(As he walks away, Arya calls after him)
Arya: “Sandor! ….Thank you.”

      ————-
      *(S4e3 – Arya & Sandor meet Rabbit Stew Sally & her father)

        Quote  Reply

    50. Tron79,

      Oh no. I think you did properly use the word when you wrote “I was literally was in tears” reading that Arya passage.

      You would not be alone if you started tearing up simultaneously with Arya at the culmination of her internal monologue about what Needle represents to her and why she can’t bear to toss it in the water.
      (This is probably not verbatim…)
      ***
      “… Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. ‘He used to muss my hair and call me little sister’, she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.”

      That whole passage was powerful; almost poetic; and certainly, emotionally resonant.

        Quote  Reply

    51. kevin1989,

      ”I would also suggest too read the released chapters of winds, they are amazing, one had me shed tears of happiness. (not the Arya chapter another one).”

      ______
      Really? I shed tears of happiness reading the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter when

      Mercy/Arya slit that guy’s thigh vein and he bled out.

      😄

        Quote  Reply

    52. Ten Bears, great I used it right.
      It would be awesome if our Rabbi gave a Sandor themed sermon!!

      The scene teared me up partly because she has more personal items in the books than the show that she’s giving up and how much each one reminds her of her journey so far. (I was right there with her remembering each moment). Those were really hard to give up and then comes needle and it’s just too much as she remembers Jon (and her stark family).
      She tears up and i teared up with her.

      Gotta go. I’ll respond back to everyone in a day or so. Have to turn off the electronics. I hope our rabbi is a wotw reader and talks about Sandor! I do know he is at least a little bit of GOT fan so you never know!

        Quote  Reply

    53. Tron79,

      It was also because you can feel how alone Arya was feeling in the book. She quoted the lone wolf lines a couple of times and to her, her pack has mostly all died or abandoned her. When she also had to give up her identity you just can’t help feel for her.

        Quote  Reply

    54. MotherofWolves,

      I was looking for GRRM blog entries from 2010 or 2011 about casting the roles of Sansa and Arya (referred to in the “P.S.” at the end of my 11:25 am comment this morning), when I came upon this
      May 20, 2019 online article in “Daily Actor.”
      Parts of it may be quoting from a Rolling Stone interview of GRRM. I do not recall reading it before.
      I’ve reproduced the text of the linked article, below, for anyone who’s interested, because if you open the link to the article you may be assaulted by annoying pop-ups and ads that obscure your screen.

      https://www.dailyactor.com/actors-on-acting/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-casting-arya-stark/

      “Game of Thrones Creator George R.R. Martin on Why it Was So Hard to Cast Arya Stark”
      May 20, 2019
      by Chris McKittrick

      She’s saying the lines, she’s alive, she’s got Arya’s spirit, you know? It was incredible.” – George R. R. Martin on Watching Maisie Williams Audition Tape

      If anyone knows the Game of Thrones characters, it’s the creator of the series in which the books are based, George R. R. Martin. The A Song of Ice and Fire author recently did an interview with Rolling Stone regarding the final season of HBO’s television adaptation of Game of Thrones. At one point, Martin spoke specifically about the casting of Maisie Williams, who has played Arya Stark on the series since the first season.

      Reflecting on the pitch-perfect casting, Martin credits casting director Nina Gold and show creators David Benioff and D. B. Weiss for succeeding at the challenging task of casting a young actress in the part:

      “I have to give an immense amount of credit to our casting director, Nina Gold. The casting of Arya was particularly difficult, as I somewhat feared it would be; I think we looked at more potential Aryas than any other role in this show. I wasn’t physically present at the casting — I was back here in New Mexico working on the next book — but I was linked into it on the internet. So they would videotape these girls … I think we probably saw like a hundred girls. And at a certain point in the process I was really beginning to say, ‘This is a disaster, we can’t find anyone here.’ These are not parts that require the girls to be cute, and deliver clever little one-liners to put down their idiot father, like you do in a sitcom. These are girls that are gonna go through really huge personal traumas. They’re gonna see death and war. They’re gonna see people close to them beheaded.

      So after looking at all these tapes, particularly for Arya, I was saying, “We are so screwed.” Then I saw Maisie’s tape, and it was like, ‘There she is. There she is. Arya.’ She’s saying the lines, she’s alive, she’s got Arya’s spirit, you know? It was incredible. David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] and I said, ‘Yeah, we found her, hooray. Send up the skyrockets.’”

        Quote  Reply

    55. 8:13 PM
      Since this is a Comment Section under an Arya/Maisie Williams + GRRM post, I suppose I shouldn’t have to provide an Arya Thread Derailment Warning (⚠️🚂👸🏻🗡).

      I’m doing so anyway, just to give you all a head’s up that I’m going to try to post some entries from back in 2010 on grrm.livejournal introducing the unknown child actresses who’d been cast as Arya and Sansa.

      Even if you’ve seen these before, reading them again is like a trip down Memory Lane.

      #ASNAWP
      #QitN

        Quote  Reply

    56. I would like to know why we haven’t heard anything from HBO about the prequal, Blood Moon??? Are we ever going to get to view the pilot? Are they going to order a full season, they have had plenty of time to know if the are going to or not. They should let us fans know something !!!! Has anyone on this site heard or know anything ?

        Quote  Reply

    57. Ten Bears,

      Most excellent sermon for the day, thank you

      and looking forward to those entrees (Is it possible to pull up some of the posts that were running on the old site about this time? )

        Quote  Reply

    58. The writers should have Arya show up in the prequal, she could go through some sort of portal. She could meet Bran the Builder, those two hook up, she helps with the Long Night, tells all the stories of future events, this is where all the prophecies came from, the drawings in the books that Sam had at the Citadel. Her doing this would make sense and explain a lot of things. She could be the one who starts the Stark line, “There always has to be a Stark in Winterfell” think of all the possibilities of story lines they could work in with her. She could also be the one to go to Bravos and start the Faceless Men, wouldn’t that be awesome.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Gina M Flynn:
      I would like to know why we haven’t heard anything from HBO about the prequal, Blood Moon??? Are we ever going to get to view the pilot? Are they going to order a full season, they have had plenty of time to know if the are going to or not. They should let us fans know something !!!! Has anyone on this site heard or know anything ?

      Jack Bauer 24 is your Answer Man. He sees all. Knows all. Sort of a 3ER 3.0.

      (Hey Jack? Can you put on your weirwood goggles and help Gina?)

        Quote  Reply

    60. ash,

      I have not tried to pull up posts on the old site (n/k/a PopUpsAreUs.net) from the early days of casting for the show.

      However, I did retrieve three of the blog posts from grrm.livejournal that I was looking for. They’re from Aug 21, 2009, Aug. 24, 2009, and Apr. 11, 2010. There may be more. I may have to post the embedded photos separately.

      I think the fan comment sections are still accessible. I got a kick out of book readers squeeing over the tiny head shots of little Sophie and little Maisie, e.g., “OMG! She looks exactly like how I pictured her!”

        Quote  Reply

    61. #1 of 3

      Here’s a grrm livejournal post from August 21, 2009. [Link followed by text.]
      Hard to believe this was over ten years ago!

      8/21/2009 grrm.livejournal
      https://grrm.livejournal.com/102596.html

      As Arya and Sansa Stark…
      … we have Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner, respectively.

      These were the toughest ones to find clues for, since neither one can be found on IMDB, YouTube, Google, or any of the other places I searched. When you google Maisie’s name, however, you get a bunch of hits for Maizie Williams, a singer for an old pop group called Boney M. But of course THAT Maizie Williams was not our Arya, hence the clue that one player was NOT a boney pop singer.

      Here’s our Arya:

      [embedded photo]

      Sophie Turner was just as hard to find. No, she’s not the middle-aged actress who played in the DR. WHO episode. She’s not any of the other Sophie Turners that google will turn up, either. I thought about trying to cobble together some kind of “not Sophie Tucker” clue, but finally gave it up as a bad idea, and in the end I never did drop a hint for Sophie.

      Here’s Sansa:

      [embedded photo]

      (That’s not the best picture, I know. Sorry, didn’t have a lot to choose from. I am sure better pictures of both Maisie and Sophie will be forthcoming).

      You guys cannot possibly know how hard these roles were to cast. I’ve viewed dozens of readings for both girls. Sweet kids, some with great looks, all of them bright and eager and enthusiastic… but good child actors are rare. Maisie brought Arya alive in a way that none of the other kids could match, right from the first. Sophie read two scenes; the scene with Arya on the kingsroad, and a much later one when Joff is forcing her to look at the heads on the walls. Two very different sides of the character. She knocked ’em both out of the park.

      I think you’re going to love these girls. I know I do.

        Quote  Reply

    62. #2 of 3
      grrm livejournal post from August 24, 2009. [Link followed by text.]

      grrm.livejournal.com
      8/24/2009

      https://grrm.livejournal.com/103855.html

      George R.R. Martin (grrm) wrote,
      2009-08-24 13:29:00

      Arya and Sansa, Revisited

      Here, as promised, are some larger pictures of Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner, who will be portraying Arya and Sansa Stark, respectively, in the HBO pilot.

      MAISIE WILLIAMS

      [embedded photo]

      Maisie, I am informed, has some previous acting credits. Stage work, I gather, nothing in television or film. Until now. Sorry, I have no further details.

      SOPHIE TURNER

      [embedded photo]

      Sophie is brand new, David and Dan tell me. Well, maybe some school plays. She read for us at her school. Don’t confuse her with the DR. WHO Sophie Turner, please, or any of the other Sophie Turners that Google will turn up. (She should probably tweak her name to make it more distinctive. Maybe Sophie R.R. Turner. Worked for me)

        Quote  Reply

    63. #3 of 3 April 11, 2010 post –
      grrm.livejournal.com

      https://grrm.livejournal.com/146489.html

      Stick ‘Em With the Pointy End

      Filming on HBO’s GAME OF THRONES series will be resuming in June, in Northern Ireland.

      Maisie Williams, who will play Arya Stark, is preparing for her part by practicing her needlework. I though you might enjoy seeing these recent pictures of her that her mom was kind enough to send me.

      [embedded photos]

      Her sword, of course, is the full-scale replica of Needle produced by the good folks at Valyrian steel.

      [embedded photos]

      You can get a Needle for your very own Arya at http://www.valyriansteel.com/

        Quote  Reply

    64. ash,

      Obviously, clicking on the links to the three livejournal posts above (#1 – #3) is probably the easiest way to view the text and embedded photos, AND access the fan comments (which sometimes included replies from G himself).

        Quote  Reply

    65. Tron79:
      So for those following my book journey, I made it to Arya II today.
      And it was worth it.What was my true reaction. I litterally was in tears. I can’t remember that happening when reading before.It’s not really a spoiler since similar things happen in the show, but the way GRRM takes you through Arya having to give up her possessions is making me tear up now while writing this.So for Arya fans, it’s definitely worth it.There were also several other things I won’t go in to that could have been done in the show…

      I love reading the books, the variety of characters and POVs are really the special hook for me… so many complex and interesting characters that are all being tested and being pulled in so many directions and they all feel alive, at least for me. I can really tell how much GRRM really understands and likes his characters, even when they are horrible or doing horrible things, you can still understand (maybe not agree) why/how they got there.

      28 more chapters…lol
      I think the only time I looked ahead when reading the books was the Red Wedding Arya chapter… the way it ended was more or less suggesting that she was killed… I had to look ahead just to make sure she didn’t, lol

        Quote  Reply

    66. ash:
      3eyes,

      I thought she did too; a little rough between the edges but it was a disguise to make sure no one knew who she was(so in a sense, she was always No One!) but she always looked good. I can imagine her having trouble with body image; it looks like shes confident now, and she should be (and can we please have a law telling all child actors to stay off social media!!!! There are so many damn trolls and horrible people that just want to through filth around matter how much it might hurt another.

      I suspect she is not the only child actor who has to be wrapped – usually its to keep them from looking older.I do wonder how if there was another way to approach this (thinking of how I was growing at that age, the very thought of it makes me hurt!)

      This! I have always found Maisie damn cute in her boy disguise, they couldn’t make her look ugly. But I was happy to see her in her Bravosi outfit & hairstyle, it was then when I noticed that she had become a beautiful woman.
      Watching her interview was a bliss, I missed Maisie a lot. I haven’t managed to watch Then Came You yet and Early Man was not good enough (even for a Manchester United fan), because I could only hear her voice. So, I have enjoyed every second of the video and I particularly liked her outfit at the first show.
      I fully agree with you, ash, growing at that age was not easy for me either, and there was no fame and no social media involved!
      About TWOW… I’m not going there!

        Quote  Reply

    67. Ten Bears,

      Bwahaha…”What sayeth the God of Procrastination?” Lil’ better. xD And definitely accurate.

      YES! As a fellow American, I thank Nina Gold for bringing us the creme de la creme of British/Irish and other European actors whom we, dismayingly, might never have gotten to know otherwise.

      And Jim Broadbent as the uncreative maester…yes, it was remarkable that they were able to use recognizable people without taking you out of the world. Thank goodness they were so prescient regarding the child actors, too. We’re extremely fortunate that they were able to pull together such a perfect cast.

      How sad to know that George once had such enthusiasm; I didn’t become a fan until, I think, the gap between seasons 2 & 3. Somewhere around there. Seems the pressure of being overtaken by the series and then still unable to finish by its end sapped him of a lot of that excitement.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Tron79,

      I remember when posters used to call him out for being a troll because of the repetition on trailer questions I believe it was. It is interesting to see the things he says now that the show is over lol.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Jack Bauer 24,

      It can’t have been easy finishing an adaptation of uncompleted books. What will be will be and I’m not giving any predictions one way or the other as to books 6 and 7 of ASOIAF. There HAVE been writers who have carried on writing (and I mean writing worthwhile books) into their senior years.

      Regarding Maisie Williams having to grow up in the public eye. I remember reading that Judy Garland’s chest was bound when she played a younger than her calendar age girl in “The Wizard of Oz”.

      One of the more unpleasant aspects of the internet is when some folk (and I’m not just referring to Watchers on the Wall) call anyone who has a different opinion a troll or a shill. What would have happened with the ancient Greek philosophers if folk with an opposing opinion had said “Socrates is a shill” or “Plato is a troll”.

        Quote  Reply

    70. I read some interesting theories which some I believe can be possible, and it would be amazing if some would be true, I post them in spoiler tags. Don’t read tron till you finish whole of dance.

      1. Tywin killed Elia and her children.Why I think this is true is because Gregor would never know the secret passage to Maegor’s holdfast, but Tywin mind know. Tywin also has personal reasons. We don’t know 100% about, one is that the mad king fathered Cersei and Jaime. And didn’t Cersei not meant to marry Rheagar first but was changed to Elia because of a fall-out between Tywin and Arys?
      It also made sense if you read between the lines, there was a chapter with Tyrion and Varys talking about Elia’s last word. Varys seems to know more about it. But Tyrion claimed it was Gregor. Why would Elia call the name of her raper? But that was the story that was heavily told in Casterly Rock. Gregor is also the good dog of Tywin. So he wouldn’t mind lying for Tywin. Another thing that made sense that Tywin would have done it, was that Varys has spies everywhere, he knows things more than the rest. And when Pycelle told the mad king to open the gates to Tywin. Varys seems concerned and spoke against it. Why? He was already busy with getting the mad king of his iron throne. He was waiting for Ned because Ned would have made sure the children would survive. But why would Varys care about the children? He did horrible things to children in the books, even killed them when they were older because they couldn’t be his spiders anymore. But later on that. So Varys already feared that Tywin would kill Elia and her children, and maybe better he already knew it because of his spiders. The conclusion of point 1 I do I point 2.
      2. I think that Varys really switched baby Aegon, that story is legit. But has a twist I will tell later. I think Varys part is true. He needed to keep his cover so he couldn’t take out Elia and her daughter; they were too old and couldn’t be switched. We know baby switch works because of what Jon did in the north; nobody suspects a thing there, nobody here. Why Varys wants to switch the baby I tell later. Back to Tywin. What if Tywin knew? And smashed his face in? Only Aegon’s face was smashed not the daughter. Or maybe Varys did it himself to keep himself safe, but I doubt for his plan it’s better that people suspect a switch could have happened for the story that is happening in the present. But it comes together that Varys did it.
      3. Why does Varys wants the baby? Simple he wants to put a King back on the throne with a claim. The son of Rheagar is that claim. And the reason why he didn’t safe Elia and the sister is simple. He wants to be in control of his upbringing. Giving his karl-marx worldview onto the boy. Without interfering from his mother. He wants to put a king on the throne with the right claim that is being molded how Varys wants it to be.
      4. But when Varys got the baby to Pentos and stayed in KL. Illyrio told Varys that he went with the plan, but in fact killed the baby and put his son with Serra in place.
      5. Why I think this is important is that I think another switch has taken place. Ned+Ashara Dayne got a baby. And Rheagar and Lyanna got a baby. We all think Jon is the son of Rheagar and Lyanna but Ned went to the Dayne’s home after the tower of Joy before getting home. What if he switched the babies to raise his own son. Making Jon Ned and Ashara’s son. I’m not so convinced with this theory but it’s possible and falls in the line of Griff story. Because Jon is also put forth as king, but has no real claim. But the interpretation of the information they get gives the notion Jon is the true heir. Making it in the end that Daenerys was the only one with the true claim, but unworthy of the throne. Which also make what GRRM stands for come forth. The leader of a country should not be determined who you’re parent is.

      Ten Bears,

      That was of course wonderful. But it was in fact

      Her sister that I was referring too. That was such a peaceful chapter, and feeling that everything went well for Sansa at the moment. That felt uplifting. Of course that will change soon, LF stays LF.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ten Bears,

      It was delightful to read through those old posts from GRRM about the casting of Maisie and Sophie. Both were incredible finds, so I can see why he was so happy about them being cast as the Stark sisters. It would have been an unimaginably different show without them, or if those parts were miscast. Even with so many central/main characters in the story, GRRM himself has said that Arya, Sansa and Bran are perhaps the most central characters.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Martin will always have my gratitude for creating this wonderful world and characters, but he’s lost my respect. He’s been using GOT as an excuse as to why his writing has slowed for years, and now he’s gone and gotten himself involved with other shows. It doesn’t add up. If Winds was really his top priority, he wouldn’t even think about taking on side projects until it’s done. I’m lucky that I was highly satisfied with the show’s ending, as Martin is clearly a lost cause.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Young Dragon:
      Tron79,

      I’m glad you’re enjoying it! I wish I had a similar experience.

      So, I’m curious. It sounds like you had a bad experience reading them. Do you think it’s because I’m reading them as one big book that it’s different for me? I can’t imagine going that many years (5+ years between books) and not finding out what happened to Jon for that long (for example), since he was mostly in ADWD. I guess it was alot longer than that since it took GRRM a bunch of years to write AFFC and then another 5+ years to write ADWD. I’m not really half way through yet since I’m reading both books as one. Perhaps my experience will change later..not sure… What was your experience like and where did GRRM go wrong for you? When did you read them and did you have to wait for years to find out about Dany and Jon and the folks in ADWD who weren’t in AFFC.

      BTW, I survived Yom Kippur and have happily eaten again, and it wasn’t mutton….

        Quote  Reply

    74. viki: I love reading the books, the variety of characters and POVs are really the special hook for me… so many complex and interesting characters that are all being tested and being pulled in so many directions and they all feel alive, at least for me. I can really tell how much GRRM really understands and likes his characters, even when they are horrible or doing horrible things, you can still understand (maybe not agree) why/how they got there.

      I totally agree with you. I really feel like I’m right with the characters, and they are all being tested and pulled as you say. I’m seeing some interesting differences from the show, but coming from the show first, I always have the actors from the show in my mind. So my view is a bit different than if my imagination came up with what they would look like. But I like thinking about how the actors would have handled the book version of their characters, and I enjoy being surprised with the differences.

      28 more chapters…lol
      I think the only time I looked ahead when reading the books was the Red WeddingArya chapter… the way it ended was more or less suggesting that she was killed… I had to look ahead just to make sure she didn’t, lol

      Yeah, I have a link to the boiled leather order (shown below), so I pull up this image sometimes and count the chapters until arya comes up again! There are a couple chapters that are Arya POV that don’t use her name. GRRM started to use some other descriptions in these books instead of just the name of the POV. It really is a major motivator for me, cuz it’s the longest series of books I’ve ever read. I’ve been a TV streamer for most of the last 5+ years and I often write reviews for TV shows on IMDB and other places. So getting back to some serious reading and turning off the TV is a major change for me, so I need a motivator when staring at 2000+ pages. Arya chapters definitely motivate me, and there are only 5 in the last two books (but they are spread out somewhat evenly) The good news is that I really do get into the POV chapters from the other characters I love from the show too. Brienne gets alot of ink time in the books as compared to the show. She has a bunch of chapters in AFFC/ADWD. She is more layered than the show. I also love GRRM’s description of fight scenes. I like his description of valyrian steel in action and the ways the characters use their weapons. I hope for everyone’s sake that GRRM’s characters start keeping him awake at night again. From what I’ve read so far in AFFC/ADWD, I can tell that he’s going to get to the ending very differently from the show route. As folks have said, he may get to the same place, but in a totally different more developed way. After reading some of Cersei’s strategy in these books that wasn’t used in the show, I can already see that there is a 95% chance that GRRM will bring us to the conclusion using a very different path (even if some of the plot points are the same). D&D did a great job with doing what they could to get these POV characters together in a way that made sense without GRRM’s book to guide them.

      https://i.imgur.com/ZUltqPL.png

        Quote  Reply

    75. Tron79,

      For me, when I first read the books I loved the first 3, I didn’t like the fourth, for many reasons that people who disliked the books said. The many POVS that could be done with one. for instance Dorne just Arianne instead of that kingsguard and Areo should begin in winds with his first chapter. With Iron Island the same, Damphair could have been in Winds his first. Victorion only at the end of Feast but he was introduced to early. Too many new character at one time.

      I also wondered what the connection to the main story was, which didn’t help me either.

      Dance I found better than Feast and Clash but not as good as GoT and SoS. It still lacked something for me, I think the action. And the build up to 2 big battles that only happen in winds. (So I think reading sample chapters would help you a lot).

      Than I read Boiled Leathers from then on. It helped a lot for 2 reasons. 1. The story flows better. From Cersei to Tyrion, amazing. And the bigger picture is better. But why I really started to love boiled Leathers was that after reading the bigger version a couple of times, I saw what GRRM was going to, I saw the smaller hints in his first 3 books that this is what he was preparing us for. The return of a certain character in Tyrion’s journey. Won’t spoil it for you, was heavily told in the first 3 books. I already felt the bigger connection t the endgame better for those stories. And I understood them better after that.
      What also helped that after multiple reads, you see the underlying theme and hints better, it’s a pretty smart book. And smarter than SoS in my opinion, the hints are given more cryptic and better. SoS was more action and these 2 more character driven. It become my favorite book combined. And whenever I read I’m happy when I arrive at boiled Leathers, except the first chapters where you read Damphair and Areo and that kingsguard dude, the rest perfect. (Damphair I like his second chapter which should have been his first)

        Quote  Reply

    76. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      For me, when I first read the books I loved the first 3, I didn’t like the fourth, for many reasons that people who disliked the books said. The many POVS that could be done with one. for instance Dorne just Arianne instead of that kingsguard

      Wow, I love Arianne’s character. She is quite sexy and I’m surprised they didn’t include her in the show… But things didn’t turn out too well for her in the last chapter I read of hers so not sure how much story she has… I am liking Dorne much better in the books though than the show (but that’s not a very high bar to reach!). It’s true there are too many characters for me to remember without a re-read or going back and at least reviewing the text. I love all of the Iron Born characters that GRRM describes, but I just can’t remember them with one reading. That is great that fans like you have gone back and re-read to get all the clues… You’re right that there was plenty of action in ASOS (and 10 or so Arya chapters!), but I think I’m actually reading these combined books faster for some reason. I do enjoy the character drama and there are enough twists and fights and buildup for me to keep turning. I think it must be better as you say reading it as Boiled Leather. I can’t imagine the frustration of folks when both Jon and Dany were left out of AFFC!! Jon was mentioned briefly from Samwell’s POV. I guess GRRM was way too optimistic that he would get ADWD done in a year. He says this in his prologue somewhere that hopefully folks won’t have to wait more than a year to catch up with Jon and Dany and the rest. Wow. Wow…. I’m hoping for #TWOW2020. I’m hoping that’s not optimistic…I’m forever an optimist so that’s one of my flaws sometimes, but I’m still hopeful. It is hard to hear empty promises though. In the computer world we used to call it “Vapor Ware” when companies would come out with amazing promos but haven’t finished the software yet!

        Quote  Reply

    77. Tron79,

      Arianne is amazing, especially later. What chapter did you read of Arianne last?
      And true Dorne in the books was not that great. And it’s a shame, they wanted season 5 to be the exciting season but I rather would have had it that they focused on the character. For instance Arya in season 4 was brilliant, not because her plot moved fast, because I think it was her slowest season, she traveled a whole season towards the Vale to get on her boat. her plot-development was minimum, but still for me it’s her best season, because her character moments and development was huge. Her bond with Sandor was build perfectly.
      And season 5 wanted to get on with the plot. But personally I would have prefer less plot development in season 5 and more character development. Look at Daenerys. Her whole arc was plot-based to get her to the part that she could fly off with Drogon (I already give it away that for my little big project her going away with Drogon would not happening in the 5th season probably but depends of other character how fast I will progress her story) , and her character based storyline was put to the minimum, her struggle with her ideals against peace in Meereen, and I wish it would have ended with that. But who knows where I’m going with my project, I already understand better the struggle of D&D with time. I just finish roughly what Tyrion would have done per episode, and ended it where I wanted Tyrion to end minimum in the story, and I changed the storyline already multiple times or to dragging with some parts. It’s very close to the show version but I shuffled some things. But he did not reach Meereen yet in my version.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Tron79,

      I think boiled leathers is a huge reason that it works better. And why:
      Sam, Jon. The connection with the story is better. It’s fresh and you are fully in the baby switch. You understand Sam’s chapters better with the reading. We know how Gilly feels. With only Feast it takes longer till we know that. Same with Tyrion and Cersei. And even Kings Landing and Dany if I’m not mistaken words about Dany are in Feast but we don’t see why that news travels to those parts.

      And agree the character development is huge in those books.
      I stay optimistic too, and if it’s doesn’t arrive in 2020 than I reread the books again.

      kevin1989,
      Don’t read the spoiler if you didn’t read the lost lord chapter.
      It’s only version 1, so more synopsis based with some sentences. And with time frame that I think it takes. Tyrion and

      Lord Connington

      would be roughly 15/20% of season 5 is my guess with my project. Now I will write version 1 of Dorne. Because it’s easier to be done with that, because I will not give that story line that much time.

        Quote  Reply

    79. kevin1989: I think boiled leathers is a huge reason that it works better. And why:
      Sam, Jon. The connection with the story is better. It’s fresh and you are fully in the baby switch. You understand Sam’s chapters better with the reading. We know how Gilly feels. With only Feast it takes longer till we know that. Same with Tyrion and Cersei. And even Kings Landing and Dany if I’m not mistaken words about Dany are in Feast but we don’t see why that news travels to those parts.

      And agree the character development is huge in those books.
      I stay optimistic too, and if it’s doesn’t arrive in 2020 than I reread the books again.

      That’s a good point. I didn’t really get it when I read the books separately, I just remember feeling frustrated with both AFFC and ADWD but reading Sam’s chapters in AFFC alongside Jon’s chapters in ADWD does give it a fuller picture. We get the feelings and perspectives of all three characters involved and why the baby switch was done. And I wonder, based on some things that Jon and Aemon said in Jon II and Jon III ADWD, if Aemon had a hand in planning it.

      I was happy to get Brienne’s POV in AFFC. But I wish we would have gotten Robb’s POV — at least in ASOS. Especially when it came to Robb’s feelings about Theon’s betrayal, deciding his will, how he felt about Catelyn’s objections to his decisions, and Jeyne Westerling.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Adrianacandle,

      Robb’s character seemed like a very minor character in the books as compared to others and a lot of his action happened off screen. A lot of other characters were talking about what Robb was doing but we weren’t living that much with Robb. His entire relationship with Talisa wasn’t even in the books. He had a different wife with the marriage and Pre-marriage all happening off screen. I complained about things in the show happening off screen but GRRM does this with Robb in the book. I think in the show they wanted a steamy relationship for screen drama. It did work. I like some of D&D’s decisions but then they leave things out like how close Robb was with his direwolf. You could trace Robb’s downfall in the book by how things changed between him
      And grey wind. I wish they would have been more loyal to the books with the way grrm uses the direwolves. It’s hard to believe they were so much more expensive than those alladin dragon flights that weren’t needed. IMHO .

        Quote  Reply

    81. Tron79,

      That’s fair! But I feel Robb’s role in the books was pretty significant as one of the kings in the War of the Five Kings who made this choice that led to the ruin of a Stark-led North and the Red Wedding, resulting in the Bolton rule. And I would have loved to have seen Robb’s thoughts because they reveal so much about a character, like everything that went into his decision to marry Jeyne Westerling, which led to his own death, the deaths of his men, his mother, the Red Wedding, etc.

      We get a mother’s view of Robb from Catelyn, a sibling’s view from Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. We get a pretty interesting view from Theon (who really did love Robb but at the same time, Robb was also on the opposing side and at the end of the day, no matter how well he was treated, Theon was still a hostage of the Starks to ensure Baelon’s good behavior).

      I guess I would have really loved to have Robb’s POV in turn.

      I do also wish they included more of the direwolf stuff in the show! But I keep reading how the CGI was so difficult to do because of fur (which, when I did 3D animation, fur and hair is the most difficult) and dogs are hell to work with. So I think that was the reason?

        Quote  Reply

    82. MotherofWolves,

      I’m glad you liked the clips and photos.
      Although I’m a latecomer to GoT and haven’t read the books yet, I find it fascinating to read contemporaneous accounts from GRRM in 2009 about how “we found our Arya,” and book readers’ positive responses to the photos of then-unknown Maisie Williams posted by G in April, 2010, way before the first episode aired.

      Who could have predicted that the show would become a global phenomenon, and that G’s predictions about MW inhabiting the role of Arya would prove to be so accurate?

        Quote  Reply

    83. Ten Bears,

      I really loved reading the comments on those links! I went through and found all of the casting annoucements…. XD;;

      Also — livejournal. Nostalgia world. I used to be an icon maker for whatever show I was currently obsessed with then and followed along these ridiculously complicated Photoshop tutorials to make them in order to get the exact right fake authentic vintage cross processed look 😉 There was this 1 pt text trend to imitate mini fashion magazine layouts in 100×100 pixels. That actually was pretty fun… Fake real vintage and text you can’t read <3

        Quote  Reply

    84. Adrianacandle,

      Agree, even if it was just one chapter.

      And I think the adding of the pov’s was a huge problem. Clash added theon who was already a secondary character in game, Davos was new so only 1 new character to get to know. Storm only added 2 secondary characters no new characters. And Feast added 4 secondary character from previous books and 4 new characters. Same with Dance it added 2 secondary from previous books and 2 new. Feast added too much for one book. He should have sticked with his first plan, no deviding. Just add Yara and Arianne in Feast with of course Brienne and Cersei. And just break the story somehwere around 1000 pages in. Than Dance could have added Victorion as a pov, and maybe Areo Hotah, and Jon Connington, and Barristan who were already secondary in feast at that moment. And only Quentyn as a new POV that we never saw in another POV chapter. And in Winds which is revealed won’t give us any new POV. Would have been great if that added Damphair. And let it all crash down at the end of winds with killing POVs. (which I already suspect will happen).

      I think that would have been better.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Tron79,

      hahahaha Alladin dragon flight. Jon: What’s happening. Dany: I want to show you the world (singing)….

      And true, D&D did many things right, Talisa was one of them. But it’s a shame that back then I have a feeling they wanted to give us more information of Volantis because of Dance of Dragons. But it was left out in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    86. kevin1989,

      Oh yes, all the new POV characters. I kind of remember those driving me insane — I felt it was a lot to have to invest in all at once while I was just wanting to know what was happening with Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Theon, Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei, etc. I did enjoy getting a POV for Davos, Brienne, Theon, and Melisandre. I really found Theon and Melisandre’s POVs interesting, especially Melisandre and how she views other POV characters, POV characters who don’t like her (Davos, Jon) — especially because she really does believe in what she’s doing and that these heinous actions (burning people alive as a sacrifice) are for the greater good. For all her faults (burning people at the stake), she’s sincere. There’s no ulterior motive.

      Thanks for the Aladdin earworm btw!!

        Quote  Reply

    87. Adrianacandle,

      But that’s because we already knew them but we wanted that POV. Same with Asha, once her POV happened I was happy, we waited that long for it. We knew her already but now we got to know her from within instead of how Tyrion saw her. It was a nice addition. Same with Brienne or Cersei, we knew them. But with all those new characters, we didn’t knew one information about them. Yes we have heard Theon talk about his uncles, but that was it. For all those new character in Feast I didn’t even know they excised. And there they were. I wouldn’t mind 1 max 2 completely new characters, it’s easy to get into, fresh blood. But not overkill.

      One new character I though George did very well was in fact the lost lord (I use the POV name so Tron doesn’t get spoiled if he didn’t read it yet). The whole storyline of him was build with the 6 or 7 chapters from

      Tyrion

      . We already knew that character a bit, the storyline of the lost lord was started in that know character. And once

      Tyrion

      left that storyline, we really wanted to know how that storyline moved further so we really wanted the pov of the lost lord. It was done perfectly.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      That’s fair! But I feel Robb’s role in the books was pretty significant as one of the kings in the War of the Five Kings who made this choice that led to the ruin of a Stark-led North and the Red Wedding, resulting in the Bolton rule. And I would have loved to have seen Robb’s thoughts because they reveal so much about a character, like everything that went into his decision to marry Jeyne Westerling, which led to his own death, the deaths of his men, his mother, the Red Wedding, etc.

      We get a mother’s view of Robb from Catelyn, a sibling’s view from Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. We get a pretty interesting view from Theon (who really did love Robb but at the same time, Robb was also on the opposing side and at the end of the day, no matter how well he was treated, Theon was still a hostage of the Starks to ensure Baelon’s good behavior).

      I guess I would have really loved to have Robb’s POV in turn.

      I do also wish they included more of the direwolf stuff in the show! But I keep reading how the CGI was so difficult to do because of fur (which, when I did 3D animation, fur and hair is the most difficult) and dogs are hell to work with. So I think that was the reason?

      Yes, I agree it would have been nice to have Robb’s POV. I mostly remember his mom’s POV. As you say, everyone is talking about Robb…we’re just not hearing from Robb. That is odd that Robb didn’t have a POV chapter of his own, and I’m sure others have written papers on the subject somewhere. The birds certainly were able to carry news of Robb’s latest battle to the various power groups… The birds got around alot! Perhaps there should have been a Raven POV!

      I think they should have spent the money on the direwolves even if it was hard to do the fur. I was fine with how Jon’s reunion with Ghost looked. Perhaps the fur looked a little fake, but I liked the size of Ghost as compared to trying to just use regular wolves. I also liked the size of Nymeria in Arya’s big reunion scene. So I think they knew how to do it. The direwolves were just the very heart of GRRM’s story. GRRM says in his interviews how the very first thought he had was the scene with the 6 direwolves. That’s the genesis of GOT, so to not spend the money on the direwolves and to be loyal to the books is like leaving out the heart somehow. I guess I have a pretty strong opinion of that one. That’s one thing that has changed for me because of my book journey. I thought as a show watcher the direwolves were cool and I missed seeing Ghost, but I really didn’t see them as such a major part of the story and the heart of the characters as I do in the books.

      and Kevin I finished Arianne’s chapter when she…

      she just got captured after trying to get Myrcella out to be the new queen. Her plot was discovered… Darkstar was there. He was funny in an earlier chapter saying… why is it that the only Dayne people can remember is his cousin Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. I’m sure this is just the beginning of Arianne’s story then… It was really her first real POV chapter. She was mentioned earlier but not as POV.

        Quote  Reply

    89. kevin1989,

      I’m about to go to bed but just from a quick reading, I wanted to say those are my very same feelings re:POV characters. I loved getting the POVs of characters we kind of knew already but then we get their insight. With brand new POVs from characters we’ve never heard of before, it’s like starting from square one in a story where I am already invested in all these different people. You’re right, 1 or 2 is fine but I think the amount we got — yes — it was kind of overkill.

      Agreed about the Lost Lord!! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    90. Tron79: Yes, I agree it would have been nice to have Robb’s POV. I mostly remember his mom’s POV. As you say, everyone is talking about Robb…we’re just not hearing from Robb. That is odd that Robb didn’t have a POV chapter of his own, and I’m sure others have written papers on the subject somewhere.

      I recall one interview with GRRM saying he wished he had put in a Robb POV chapter — I’ll have to find it when I wake up but I like Kevin’s suggestion of even just one POV for him — like with Melisandre! It just adds soooo much, I think 🙂

      I think they should have spent the money on the direwolves even if it was hard to do the fur. I was fine with how Jon’s reunion with Ghost looked. Perhaps the fur looked a little fake, but I liked the size of Ghost as compared to trying to just use regular wolves. I also liked the size of Nymeria in Arya’s big reunion scene. So I think they knew how to do it. The direwolves were just the very heart of GRRM’s story. GRRM says in his interviews how the very first thought he had was the scene with the 6 direwolves. That’s the genesis of GOT, so to not spend the money on the direwolves and to be loyal to the books is like leaving out the heart somehow. I guess I have a pretty strong opinion of that one. That’s one thing that has changed for me because of my book journey. I thought as a show watcher the direwolves were cool and I missed seeing Ghost, but I really didn’t see them as such a major part of the story and the heart of the characters as I do in the books.

      Oh, they totally did know how to do the direwolves but I think the amount of work that went into them may have made it too much of a burden. But I did find it bizarre how little we had of them, especially in the later seasons. We don’t have to go to the extent of the books necessarily (yes, the direwolves and the connections between them and their Stark kid are much more significant — they all seem to be wargs, and I think Sansa might have been had she not lost hers so early) but they almost seemed to be like an afterthought in the show, which loses much of the story. I agree there.

      In general, GRRM’s books include far more magic than the show. The show seems a bit more “real-world” than the books, which include a lot of strange religion, magic, prophecy, the magic in Winterfell, its crypts, the old kings of winter, the Old Gods, the magic in the Wall, the mystery around the Others (who are alive?), Valyria, strange lands in the east, potential Jojen paste… 😉

        Quote  Reply

    91. Tron79,

      No, it wasn’t the wait between books. I started reading after all the books were already released. I have several issues. I didn’t like any of the new POV characters. I felt each and every one of them paled in comparison to the POV characters of the first three books. I didn’t like how a lot of the plots went nowhere and that most of everything that happened in the books was filler. I also felt like almost every storyline was incomplete. They were two books of build up but with absolutely no pay off. Combining the books may fix many of the pacing problems, but they won’t come close to fixing everything. Maybe my opinion of the books will change once Winds is released, but the fact that a third book is needed to make any sense of the first two is a showcase of bad writing, imo. My final problem with the books is that if Martin never finishes, Feast and Dance will be to blame.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Young Dragon:
      Tron79,

      No, it wasn’t the wait between books. I started reading after all the books were already released. I have several issues. I didn’t like any of the new POV characters. I felt each and every one of them paled in comparison to the POV characters of the first three books. I didn’t like how a lot of the plots went nowhere and that most of everything that happened in the books was filler. I also felt like almost every storyline was incomplete. They were two books of build up but with absolutely no pay off. Combining the books may fix many of the pacing problems, but they won’t come close to fixing everything. Maybe my opinion of the books will change once Winds is released, but the fact that a third book is needed to make any sense of the first two is a showcase of bad writing, imo. My final problem with the books is that if Martin never finishes, Feast and Dance will be to blame.

      Yeah I do know what you mean. I’m about 600 or 650 pages in so far now, and at 2000 pages that really not that far along yet. I read Sansa’s chapter not long ago titled Alayne, and I was totally confused for page or so until I finally realized ALyane was Sansa! I forgot she was using the name Alayne to hide out in the Vale. GRRM also uses more cryptic POV titles in these books instead of just saying the character’s name. With as many characters as he’s created I can see that it can get frustrating that you have a new POV and still can’t back to following your favorite’s story. I was that way in the show too. I think we all probably have favorites who we follow. And we hope that the other POV’s are leading us to some destination. We’ll see how it goes for me as I get farther along. I’m hoping to get another 100 pages in tomorrow hopefully, and Saturday afternoon is usually another lazy day so I can get alot of pages in…Most of the other days not so much right now… We’ll see if my opinion changes after another 500 pages or so…

        Quote  Reply

    93. Tron79,

      I think you should be Ok with it, I struggled with Dorne the most, and you seem to be enjoying it more than me. There is one other plot I didn’t like, but I wont say in case you haven’t got to it yet, it’s related to one of Dany’s would-be suitors.

      I see that you have read a few Cersei chapters, what do you make of her? I had Season 1/2 Cersei in mind when I got to AFFC, and I was shocked when I got inside her head, I had no idea that she was so…. nasty and delusional. She doesn’t even love her children as she does in the show (her one redeeming quality) they are just extensions of herself. She’s also a misogynist, some of the things she says about women are vile, though I understand her resentment to a point. It’s hard to imagine Jaime and Tyrion colluding to save her as they did in the show. It could happen in Jaime’s case, but she’s so so awful. I Still don’t blame her for offing Robert though.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Adrianacandle,

      Not to change the subject…
      I’m just curious: Are there any Sandor POV chapters in the books? Or is the character of the Hound portrayed through other characters with whom he interacts, e.g., Sansa and Arya?

      I can imagine that without getting inside his head to get a glimpse of his internal thoughts, the Hound could come off as a one-note. two dimensional character – like the mindless brute he’s intially portrayed as on the show, with dialogue like “killing is the sweetest thing there is”, and “the world is built by killers”; and slaughtering overmatched opponents in the S2e1 exhibition for Joffrey (“well struck, Dog!”).

      On the show, it wasn’t until S4e7 that we got to get inside Sandor’s head when he let his guard down and told Arya the story about how Gregor burned him when he was a little boy. LF told that story to Sansa and Arya in S1 – without conveying the lasting psychological trauma Sandor suffered, as he revealed in his scene with Arya in S4.

      For all the whinging from certain segments of the fandom about the show “butchering” Stannis, Jon and other book characters, and giving unsatisfying or inexplicable conclusions to certain character arcs, I thought the show did a fabulous job with Sandor Clegane. (The best part? Showing the evolution of his character and his joining up with the Good Guys without
      diluting his foul-mouthed, bad-tempered, confrontational personality. It would’ve sucked if they’d turned him into a touchy-feely, peace-love-and Frisbees, warm and fuzzy sidekick.)

      P.S. To be fair, I wasn’t happy with the brief Sansa-Sandor reunion in S8e4. I thought their early interactions in KL merited a better payoff. Plus, his his comment to her that she’d been “broken in rough”, and her reply that she’d still be a little bird but for LF and Ramsay, struck me as… inappropriate and out of character.
      Maybe I’m guilty of whining because their reunion didn’t play out the way I’d expected, and was all too short.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Jenny,

      In the show, Cersei came off as the victim of an emotionally distant, selfish father and an emotionally unavailable, abusive husband. It made her a somewhat sympathetic character.

      I guess Book! Cersei was different?

        Quote  Reply

    96. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      I think you should be Ok with it, I struggled with Dorne the most, and you seem to be enjoying it more than me.There is one other plot I didn’t like, but I wont say in case you haven’t got to it yet, it’s related to one of Dany’s would-be suitors.

      I see that you have read a few Cersei chapters, what do you make of her?I had Season 1/2 Cersei in mind when I got to AFFC, and I was shocked when I got inside her head, I had no idea that she was so…. nasty and delusional.She doesn’t even love her children as she does in the show (her one redeeming quality) they are just extensions of herself.She’s also a misogynist, some of the things she says about women are vile, though I understand her resentment to a point.It’s hard to imagine Jaime and Tyrion colluding to save her as they did in the show. It could happen in Jaime’s case, but she’s so so awful.I Still don’t blame her for offing Robert though.

      It might sound like I’m changing subjects, but it’s related. I’m excited to watch His Dark Materials. Old Bear Mormont shows up alot in the new trailer btw. But in HDM, they all have deamon animals that relate to them. I think this is a little similar how in GOT, the different clans have their own spirit animals like the direwolves and the snake in the case of Dorne. I got into GRRM’s description of the sand and the snakes and all of that. I could feel like I was in Dorne, and the ladies are pretty sexy so that doesn’t hurt either…We’ll see how the story goes though…But I think what drew me in was feeling like I was a desert person… It made more sense that they used poison with as much as they talked about snakes, etc..

      Regarding Cersei.

      I was blown away by her strategy to kill Jon. That came out of nowhere for me since I saw the show and didn’t expect it. Sending 100 men to the Wall and seducing Osney Kettleblack to be her catspaw took me by surprise. Cersei uses seduction alot more in the book than I remember from the show. Jaime is constantly thinking about all of the men she’s slept with or might have slept with. Yeah, I’m not remembering much about her thoughts about her kids in the books, so I’m sure you’re right that the show played up her devotion to her kids. I may go back and re-read some of the Cersei chapters at some point and look for how she talked about them. I think Jaime thinks less of his kids than Cersei though. That probably surprised me more. He doesn’t feel a connection to them at all so far and says he was never raised as their father. He seems pretty indifferent to them in the books so far. He may have even said a line about being able to replace them with a new child? I seem to remember something like that… There’s a lot in the books. I’m remembering alot of it because I’m reading it slowly enough and I feel really engaged with the characters and what is happening, but I understand why people re-read and go back to study them!!

        Quote  Reply

    97. Tron79,

      ”… GRRM also uses more cryptic POV titles in these books instead of just saying the character’s name.”

      _____
      I will say this: When I stumbled upon the TWOW sample chapter titled “Mercy”, I was delighted

      when the POV narrator started out in the internal voice of a seemingly new character Mercedane, and gradually revealed herself to be ASNAWP.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Ten Bears,

      Oh she is an interesting one, this is where her internalised misogyny comes into play, she resents being a woman, because she saw that Jaime was treated differently and she was sold off like a horse, she wanted to marry Rheagar and never got over it. She probably would have ditched Jaime if she had been married to Rheagar, but he was still useful to her once that fell apart. I think she did love Jaime, but only when she could control him and he looked like her, he was her ‘shadow’.

      She also thinks she is Tywin reborn, and only held back by her gender, unfortunately she is delusional, because she is an idiot. Her husband is abusive, so she is justified in hating him and I had no real problem with her killing him, but GRRM had her do things in her youth that made it clear that she was a nasty piece of work from the get go. I’d say what it is, but I don’t know how to put things in spoilers, do you know? She also abuses Tommen in AFFC, I’ll put that in spoilers if someone helps me out.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Tron79,

      Yeah, he is emotionally divorced from the kids, that’s how he deals with, or doesn’t deal with things, he just dissociates from it. I think he was even jealous of them, he wasn’t their father and they got in the way of his relationship with Cersei… so gross lol. Jaime actually thought Cersei was faithful to him, its a major blow to him and he obsesses over it for quite a while, but it does start to go somewhere as he reevaluates the relationship, he’s super bitter. I’ll let you read more, because Cersei really goes places in AFFC, and some things with the kids may not have happened yet, it subtly comes back into Jaime’s chapters as well.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Jenny,

      As for Cersei being “a nasty piece of work from the get-go”:

      On the show at least, when Oberyn told Tyrion the story about traveling to Casterly Rock when Tyrion was “just a baby”, and described how Cersei tortured him in his crib for “killing” her mother, my thought was that was all on Tywin – teaching his young daughter to be hateful and spiteful.

      Was she born evil – or was she raised to be that way?

        Quote  Reply

    101. Ten Bears,

      I don’t remember clearly, but I don’t recall her being raised to be cruel, she was expected to be a lady and get married, that’s about it, that’s pretty much the same as all of the other high born ladies. Nothing stands out in my memory, maybe somebody else knows? I do blame Tywin for pretty much everything though, father of the year….

      I think she is a narcissist to the point that she wants to have sex with herself (Jaime). Tywin was kind of a narcissist too, so perhaps the apple didn’t fall far from the tree, and she certainly felt the loss of her mother. I think in the first few books, we were meant to think that she is a product of her upbringing and her marriage, but once she becomes a POV character, you see that it’s not entirely the reason, and if it was, she has gone far beyond that. Although, in the books she orders the murder of the babies in S2, not Joffrey, so perhaps not.

      A lot of people prefer show Cersei who is more sympathetic, you can sympathise with book Cersei in some aspects, but its easy to forget while she is out there doing her thing (and its bad), some people think she is a bit one note in the book, a pure villain, but there are still things to unpack with her. GRRM said he had to take showers after writing her chapters, they do get quite dark.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Adrianacandle,

      Here’s what I mean when I asked if Sandor has any POV chapters in the books that parallel his “POV” recollection about Gregor burning him in S4e7:
      I admired that scene so much because Rory McCann seamlessly portrayed what I call a “Spectrum of Emotions” (just as Maisie Williams was somehow able to do in her S1e2 scene with Nymeria, Jon & Needle).

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0D_qFIiqLQ

      The S4e7 scene starts out with Sandor cursing as he tries to stitch up the bite wound on his neck, then barks at Arya (“No fire!”)when she approaches with a burning stick to cauterize the wound.

      First he lashes out at her:
      Shut up about it! Shut up about everything! ….Wish I’d never laid eyes on you!”

      Then he looks over at Arya cleaning Needle, and remarks: “You say your brother gave you that sword. My brother gave me this.”[pointing to his burned cheek]

      When she asks “why?”, he reverts back to the voice of his younger self in recounting what happened when he was a boy, and then reveals that it was the betrayal that scarred him more than anything:

      The pain was bad. The smell was worse. But the worst thing was that it was my brother who did it. And my father, who protected him – told everyone my bedding caught fire.”

      He then pauses, looks over at Arya, and empathizes with her:

      You think you’re on your own?”

      (Arya looks over and asks “Let me wash it out; help you sew it up at least”; Sandor, with his head down, barely nods and lets her minister to his wound.)

      I’ve probably overanalyzed this scene. I guess I’m just curious if there are any passages in the books that give insight into why Sandor Clegane assumed “the Hound” personna.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Tron79,

      You seem to be really enjoying it so far, though. And as I told you before, based on my experience online, I’m in the minority. I agree that the POV titles was an odd change, and I wonder why Martin decided to change his format. There are some things I preferred in those books. As you said, the kingsmoot was much more fleshed out. I did like Theon’s inclusion and his speech in the show, but other than that, I liked the scene better in the books. I also liked Dorne better in the books, but that’s not really saying much. I’m glad D&D axed it in the show, whereas Martin seems to be doubling down.

      I’ve been trying to keep up with all your posts about the books, but I haven’t exactly been successful. I know you’ve mentioned a few characters and storylines you wished the show included earlier in the article, but are there any others you wished the show included from the Boiled Leather and the first three books? Conversely, is there any show change that you preferred over the books? Sorry if I’m asking you to repeat yourself.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Ten Bears,

      Unfortunately, Sandor has no POV — but he’s a character who I’d love to get one from, especially in his interactions with Arya and Sansa.

      The Arya-Sandor road trip is adapted from Arya VIII (he captures her at the end of this chapter), Arya IX, Arya X, Arya XI, Arya XII, and Arya XIII in A Storm of Swords — so if you want to read only the chapters in which Arya and Sandor are traveling together, go for those ones! 🙂 I found them very good!

      I think Sandor is largely the same as his book counterpart. While Jon is dumbed down in the show (I think the broad strokes and motivations are the same but while he’s more strategic, he still makes fatal errors in the books) and Stannis has been turned into kind of a religious fanatic (his book counterpart doesn’t put much faith in religion and is entirely devoted to duty. He’s harsh, but dutiful), I think Sandor seems a bit rougher, his injuries are more grotesque, and he’s younger (27-28), but he seems about the same, particularly with Arya and Sansa.

      There’s this passage with a 12-year old Sansa that reveals why Sandor lets people call him the Hound:

      “Fools at the gate,” Ser Boros admitted. “Some loose tongues spread tales of the preparations for Tyrek’s wedding feast, and these wretches got it in their heads they should be feasted too. [Joffrey] led a sortie and sent them scurrying.”

      “A brave boy,” Clegane said, mouth twitching.

      Let us see how brave he is when he faces my brother, Sansa thought. The Hound escorted her across the drawbridge. As they were winding their way up the steps, she said, “Why do you let people call you a dog? You won’t let anyone call you a knight.”

      “I like dogs better than knights. My father’s father was kennelmaster at the Rock. One autumn year, Lord Tytos came between a lioness and her prey. The lioness didn’t give a shit that she was Lannister’s own sigil. Bitch tore into my lord’s horse and would have done for my lord too, but my grandfather came up with the hounds. Three of his dogs died running her off. My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse, and took his son to squire. The three dogs on our banner are the three that died, in the yellow of autumn grass. A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he’ll look you straight in the face.” He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. “And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it? I never got my song.”

      “I . . . I know a song about Florian and Jonquil.”

      “Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”

      “I will sing it for you gladly.”

      Sandor Clegane snorted. “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here… and every one better than you.”

        Quote  Reply

    105. Ten Bears,

      Re:Sandor and fire, these are passages you might like!

      Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. “Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you . . .”

      “Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing.” He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. “I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they’re all meat, and I’m the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers.” Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. “So long as I have this,” he said, lifting the sword from her throat, “there’s no man on earth I need fear.”

      Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters. “Not even the men across the river?”

      Clegane’s eyes turned toward the distant fires. “All this burning.” He sheathed his sword. “Only cowards fight with fire.”

      Sandor on Arya making a fire when he notices her shivering and when he finds Arya looking at his face:

      “By the time the rain stopped and the clouds broke, she was shivering and sneezing so badly that Clegane called a halt for the night, and even tried to make a fire. The wood they gathered proved too wet, though. Nothing he tried was enough to make the spark catch. Finally he kicked it all apart in disgust. “Seven bloody hells,” he swore. “I hate fires.”

      They sat on damp rocks beneath an oak tree, listening to the slow patter of water dripping from the leaves as they ate a cold supper of hardbread, moldy cheese, and smoked sausage. The Hound sliced the meat with his dagger, and narrowed his eyes when he caught Arya looking at the knife. “Don’t even think about it.”

      “I wasn’t,” she lied.

      He snorted to show what he thought of that, but he gave her a thick slice of sausage. Arya worried it with her teeth, watching him all the while. “I never beat your sister,” the Hound said. “But I’ll beat you if you make me. Stop trying to think up ways to kill me. None of it will do you a bit of good.”  

      She had nothing to say to that. She gnawed on the sausage and stared at him coldly. Hard as stone, she thought.

      “At least you look at my face. I’ll give you that, you little she-wolf. How do you like it?”

      “I don’t. It’s all burned and ugly.”

      Clegane offered her a chunk of cheese on the point of his dagger. “You’re a little fool. What good would it do you if you did get away? You’d just get caught by someone worse.”

      “You’re just afraid to die!” [Arya] said scornfully.

      Now Clegane did laugh. “Death don’t scare me. Only fire. Now be quiet, or I’ll cut your tongue out myself and save the silent sisters the bother. It’s the Vale for us.”

      Arya didn’t think he’d really cut her tongue out; he was just saying that the way Pinkeye used to say he’d beat her bloody. All the same, she wasn’t going to try him. Sandor Clegane was no Pinkeye. Pinkeye didn’t cut people in half or hit them with axes. Not even with the flat of axes.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Ten Bears: I’ve probably overanalyzed this scene. I guess I’m just curious if there are any passages in the books that give insight into why Sandor Clegane assumed “the Hound” personna.

      I also remembered this passage that might be relevant:

      The scorn in [Sandor’s] voice made [Arya] hesitate. “Back to King’s Landing,” she said. “You’re bringing me to Joffrey and the queen.” That was wrong, she realized all of a sudden, just from the way he asked the questions. But she had to say something.

      “Stupid blind little wolf bitch.” His voice was rough and hard as an iron rasp. “Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother. I’m done with their city, done with their Kingsguard, done with Lannisters. What’s a dog to do with lions, I ask you?” He reached for his waterskin, took a long pull. As he wiped his mouth, he offered the skin to Arya and said, “The river was the Trident, girl. The Trident, not the Blackwater. Make the map in your head, if you can. On the morrow we should reach the kingsroad. We’ll make good time after that, straight up to the Twins. It’s going to be me who hands you over to that mother of yours. Not the noble lightning lord or that flaming fraud of a priest, the monster.” He grinned at the look on her face. “You think your outlaw friends are the only ones can smell a ransom? Dondarrion took my gold, so I took you. You’re worth twice what they stole from me, I’d say. Maybe even more if I sold you back to the Lannisters like you fear, but I won’t. Even a dog gets tired of being kicked. If this Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he’ll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I’ll even kill Gregor for him, he’d like that.”

      “He’ll never take you,” she spat back. “Not you.”

      “Then I’ll take as much gold as I can carry, laugh in his face, and ride off. If he doesn’t take me, he’d be wise to kill me, but he won’t. Too much his father’s son, from what I hear. Fine with me. Either way I win. And so do you, she-wolf. So stop whimpering and snapping at me, I’m sick of it. Keep your mouth shut and do as I tell you, and maybe we’ll even be in time for your uncle’s bloody wedding.”

        Quote  Reply

    107. Ten Bears,

      Typo!

      *”Sandor on Arya making a fire when he notices her shivering and when he finds Arya looking at his face” should read “Sandor making a fire when he notices Arya shivering and when he finds Arya looking at his face.”

      This was another phrasing fatality due to my frequent decisions to rearrange sentences at the last minute…

        Quote  Reply

    108. Ten Bears,

      Sandor is not a POV yet. He may still become, if he’s alive as some people theorize (that would be very challenging for the author, if he begins writing him after his “reform”). In the books some of the characters who know him think of him as dead (e.g. Brienne).
      So we see Sandor so far only through others’ POVs. Sandor is important for both Sansa and Arya. He’s there to prove to them that there’s no black and white, that surface isn’t essence, that what they see may be false. And the girls are important to Sandor too. From Sansa he learns that there is kindness and compassion and that there’s still good people and beauty in this world. He protects her from the blows that Joffrey and others like to inflict on her and perhaps without her influence on him he wouldn’t have protected Arya. For Arya I guess he’s a hard test on justice: how far would Arya go to see that justice is served? He actually saves her life, so does he deserve to die?
      With Sandor, Bron and some other characters perhaps the Q-ratings are reason why they took as much screen time as they did. Also regarding Sandor perhaps they had a tip from Martin that he’s alive and under “reformation” (which is why he reappears suddenly building a sept).
      Narratively wise there was absolutely no reason for Sandor to meet Sansa in the show (or the books for that matter) and talk to her. It felt like the producers were answering the SanSan fandom, which is gross no matter how you see it. Sandor is frightening to Sansa and even in the show it’d be stupid to leave with him. They’ve had her apologizing to Sandor for not leaving with him, and to Tyrion for abandoning him, as if she existed only to satisfy men’s needs who happened to be the fandom’s favorites. (ok, I’ll say no more because venom slips out of me).
      The story Sandor tells to Arya in the show about his burns is told to Sansa in the books (quite early, in AGOT, Sansa II). If I’m not mistaken that’s the case for several of his lines. The show downplayed his relationship with Sansa but extended it with Arya, I think.

      Cersei’s a bitch. Pure and simple. Nothing to do with Tywin, even though legacies and upbringing are an important theme in ASOIAF (Starks vs Lannisters vs Targaryens). She wants to be a man in reality and she sees her children as extension of herself, a tool that will help her get the power she wants. She’d have them babies and herself queen regent forever, if she could. Unluckily for her, children tend to grow. She was smitten with Rhaegar because he was the prince and he was handsome, but she was also smitten with Robert for the same reason, but Robert never wanted her and she knew right away. She suffered everything that she did because she was waiting right that moment when her children would secure her the power she needed and she’d be able to get rid of Robert. Unfortunately Joffrey wouldn’t listen to her, but Tommen is still too young. Although he’s eight, she treats him like he’s four and keeps him away from the training that is suited for a king.
      Cersei also hates other women, which is something that really struck me in the books. She literally hates all women and all men and thinks that she’s better than them, smarter, more beautiful etc. She surrounds herself with idiots and mediocre ministers at best, because that makes her smarter in her head. In AFFC she has a woman lover who’s in it to gain things for her husband and Cersei knows.
      In sum, she’s a walking nightmare, lol. Good thing she doesn’t really exist.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Jenny:
      I don’t remember clearly, but I don’t recall her being raised to be cruel, she was expected to be a lady and get married, that’s about it, that’s pretty much the same as all of the other high born ladies.Nothing stands out in my memory, maybe somebody else knows?I do blame Tywin for pretty much everything though, father of the year….

      I think she is a narcissist to the point that she wants to have sex with herself (Jaime).Tywin was kind of a narcissist too, so perhaps the apple didn’t fall far from the tree, and she certainly felt the loss of her mother.I think in the first few books, we were meant to think that she is a product of her upbringing and her marriage, but once she becomes a POV character, you see that it’s not entirely the reason, and if it was, she has gone far beyond that.Although, in the books she orders the murder of the babies in S2, not Joffrey, so perhaps not.

      A lot of people prefer show Cersei who is more sympathetic, you can sympathise with book Cersei in some aspects, but its easy to forget while she is out there doing her thing (and its bad), some people think she is a bit one note in the book, a pure villain, but there are still things to unpack with her.GRRM said he had to take showers after writing her chapters, they do get quite dark.

      Yes, I agree with your thoughts on Cersei (and in your posts before this one too)! As for spoilers, if you surround your text with this code (but remove the spaces): [ spoiler ] text text text [ / spoiler ] , it’ll be hidden by the spoiler grey 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    110. Adrianacandle,

      ”he Arya-Sandor road trip is adapted from Arya VIII (he captures her at the end of this chapter), Arya IX, Arya X, Arya XI, Arya XII, and Arya XIII in A Storm of Swords — so if you want to read only the chapters in which Arya and Sandor are traveling together, go for those ones! 🙂 I found them very good!

      _____
      So, the “Boiled Chicken” version. I’ll have to check out those chapters from A Storm of Swords. 🐓🐓🐓
      Thanks!

        Quote  Reply

    111. mau,

      Your comment made me think back to my 3rd grade play. We were doing A Christmas Carol and I was lucky to get one of the lead parts, the Ghost of Christmas Past. I was so excited.

      But then came the costumes and the script. In our version, the Ghost of Christmas Past was basically an old crone with a big nose and an ugly hooded robe. I cried when I had to put it on for dress rehearsal and was ashamed to be seen on stage.

      Meanwhile, the Ghosts of Christmas Present and Future got the CUTEST outfits. “Present” was a Madonna look-alike girl with multi-colored hair (very 80s), and “Future” was basically a glowing, glittery princess.

      I was only 9 years old and I couldn’t understand why the other girls all got to look so cute and I had to be an ugly old crone. I remember wondering if I got the part because everyone thought I was ugly and unpopular (in reality I wasn’t any more of less popular than the average kid, but I didn’t know that at the time). But kids just don’t have that kind of perspective.

      It’s not some big traumatic moment in my past, haven’t thought about that in 30+ years. But your comment took me back. I can only imagine what little-girl-Maisie was thinking during those years.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Ten Bears,

      Yes, the dialogue was really nicely adapted! And there’s stuff with the Mountain too. I think the “your brother gave you that sword, my brother gave me this,” might be from:

      He doesn’t talk like he’s lost his belly for fighting. “I know where we could go,” Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair. It was a long way, though, and she didn’t think she could get there by herself. She hadn’t even been able to reach Riverrun. “We could go to the Wall.”

      Sandor’s laugh was half a growl. “The little wolf bitch wants to join the Night’s Watch, does she?”

      “My brother’s on the Wall,” she said stubbornly.

      His mouth gave a twitch. “The Wall’s a thousand leagues from here. We’d need to fight through the bloody Freys just to reach the Neck. There’s lizard lions in those swamps that eat wolves every day for breakfast. And if we did reach the north with our skins intact, there’s ironborn in half the castles, and thousands of bloody buggering northmen as well.”

      “Are you scared of them?” she asked. “Have you lost your belly for fighting?”

      For a moment she thought he was going to hit her. By then the hare was brown, though, skin crackling and grease popping as it dripped down into the cookfire. Sandor took it off the stick, ripped it apart with his big hands, and tossed half of it into Arya’s lap. “There’s nothing wrong with my belly,” he said as he pulled off a leg, “but I don’t give a rat’s arse for you or your brother. I have a brother too.”

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ten Bears: So, the “Boiled Chicken” version. I’ll have to check out those chapters from A Storm of Swords. 🐓🐓🐓
      Thanks!

      No problem! The inn scene happens in Arya’s final chapter in A Storm of Swords — but no chicken demands or Brienne encounter 🙁 Still a very good chapter!

        Quote  Reply

    114. Efi,

      ”…Narratively wise there was absolutely no reason for Sandor to meet Sansa in the show (or the books for that matter) and talk to her. It felt like the producers were answering the SanSan fandom…”

      _____
      From the show at least, I thought the scene when Sandor goes back to brave the mob during the KL riot to rescue Sansa was supposed to suggest that despite his insistence that he’s no knight, his actions spoke otherwise, e.g., rescuing the damsel in distress. (Though I’m still not entirely sure what he meant after he got back to the Red Keep: Tyrion said “Well done, Clegane”, and Sandor replied: “I didn’t do it for you.” )

      As for the SanSan fandom, if the showrunners wanted to cater to them, wouldn’t there have been some high thread count interactions in S8 instead of that one odd abbreviated encounter in S8e4?

        Quote  Reply

    115. Adrianacandle,

      Sandor’s laugh was half a growl. “The little wolf bitch wants to join the Night’s Watch, does she?”

      Well, now I know where they got Sandor’s sobriquet for Arya in S8e1: “cold little bitch.”

        Quote  Reply

    116. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Wait, WTF? No chickens??? Was that a show-only detail?

      Sadly, there are no chicken references (that I can recall) in relation to Sandor in the books 🙁

      There is another called the chicken-eater however…

      The earless man stared at Jon coldly as Mance turned to the white-bearded one. “Our ferocious chicken-eater here is my loyal Tormund. The woman-”

      Tormund rose to his feet. “Hold. You gave Styr his style, give me mine.”

      Mance Rayder laughed. “As you wish. Jon Snow, before you stands Tormund Giantsbane, Tall-talker, Horn-blower, and Breaker of Ice. And here also Tormund Thunderfist, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts.”

      “That sounds more like me,” said Tormund. “Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o’ wargs, as it happens, though not o’ Starks.”

        Quote  Reply

    117. Ten Bears: From the show at least, I thought the scene when Sandor goes back to brave the mob during the KL riot to rescue Sansa was supposed to suggest that despite his insistence that he’s no knight, his actions spoke otherwise, e.g., rescuing the damsel in distress. (Though I’m still not entirely sure what he meant after he got back to the Red Keep: Tyrion said “Well done, Clegane”, and Sandor replied: “I didn’t do it for you.” )

      That was my impression too… it felt natural to the Hound’s character. To insist he’s no knight, spout rough words, but still saves the girl — proving he might not look/sound/or act like a knight but he does what a knight does.

      (For the record, I am no fan of SanSan! Didn’t even know it existed until I sought out the online fandom. Because Sansa’s 11-14 and he’s…. not….)

        Quote  Reply

    118. Ten Bears: Well, now I know where they got Sandor’s sobriquet for Arya in S8e1: “cold little bitch.”

      Yup! XD I feel Sandor from the books to the show is a pretty consistent adaptation 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    119. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      If it’s any consolation, my junior high school German class staged “Snow White and the Seven Dwarves” for some kind of county-wide competition. The girl I had a huge crush on played Snow White. Her parents were German so she spoke the language fluently.
      I got the role of Mirror, Mirror on the Wall. I had to walk on stage wrapped in aluminum foil. That got a huge laugh from the audience, but I was mortified.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Adrianacandle,

      ”… That was my impression too… it felt natural to the Hound’s character. To insist he’s no knight, spout rough words, but still saves the girl — proving he might not look/sound/or act like a knight but he does what a knight does.”
      _______
      I don’t know how or whether GRRM will reintroduce Sandor in the books – if there ever is another book. All I can say is that I’m content with how the show completed Sandor’s story.

      I suppose a full-blown Sansa & Sandor story line in S8 would’ve taken up too much screen time; I’m glad they focused on Arya & Sandor, though I will always believe that it came at the expense of Arya & Jon.

      (I don’t know why I get choked up watching that S8e2 scene when Sandor turns to Arya and says “I fought for you, didn’t I?”)

        Quote  Reply

    121. Ten Bears,

      Arya and Sandor’s stories are the ones I feel content with. The others, I have varying degrees of issues with (flashback to being 15 and my friend sitting across from me on the train with this out-of-nowhere declaration, “I don’t have issues. You have issues. Everyone else has issues, I don’t have issues.” ;D It’s true… I will always have issues…)

      I feel a lot of relationship development and exploration got shortchanged in season 8. I think, even if we had two full seasons for season 7 and 8, it would have been so much better.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      ”he Arya-Sandor road trip is adapted from Arya VIII (he captures her at the end of this chapter), Arya IX, Arya X, Arya XI, Arya XII, and Arya XIII in A Storm of Swords — so if you want to read only the chapters in which Arya and Sandor are traveling together, go for those ones! I found them very good!

      _____So, the “Boiled Chicken” version. I’ll have to check out those chapters from A Storm of Swords.
      Thanks!

      So I will have to follow your Ten Bear’s Boiled Chicken journey for my first re-read! That’s awesome. I will definitely do that. I’ve already forgotten some of the exact dialogue that Adrianacandle pasted. It will be great to revisit those scenes again all back to back!

      It’s even possible that Sandor’s POV could be called “A Broken Man” just like the show. (It could be confused with Bran though) GRRM has been using those sort of POV titles in these last two books. “Cat of the Canals” is my next Arya chapter a ways down the reading road…. Thinking of show timeline, Arya just left the HOBAW on her first mission selling “Oysters, clams, and cockles!” She’s learned just enough Braavosi to say a few words like “Oysters, clams, and cockles!”

        Quote  Reply

    123. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,
      Arya and Sandor’s stories are the ones I feel content with.

      I would have to 100% agree with that (shocker, I know!), though I would give an honourable mention to Sansa since she had a strong arc throughout the series as well (in regards to main characters). For supporting characters an honourable mention would have to go to Brienne.

      With all this Arya & Sandor talk.. check out this amazing fan art of the two of them:
      Arya & Sandor, season 4
      Arya & Sandor, season 8

        Quote  Reply

    124. Efi,

      Yeah, I agree with yours and Jenny’s assessments of Cersei. But I really enjoy her still…

      This quote from Cersei when she reads a report that Theon killed Bran and Rickon. Tyrion reminds her she wanted Bran dead and hopes Catelyn believes Cersei had nothing to do with it.

      Cersei’s response:

      “Why must I suffer accusations every time some Stark stubs his toe?”

        Quote  Reply

    125. Efi:
      Ten Bears,

      Cersei’s a bitch. Pure and simple.

      lol, there’s me trying to tread lightly and you just come out with it, it made me laugh. I think she would have been raised by Joanna first and foremost, until she was 8-9 and I’ve never heard anything bad about Joanna, she bossed Tywin around at home apparently. As a young girl (Tron, don’t read to be on the safe side)

      she lied about a servant girl and had her whipped. The girl who went with her to see Maggy was named Melara Hetherspoon, Cersei killed her because she dared to suggest she would marry Jaime, and witnessed the prophecy.

      ‘The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted.’

      I remember breezing past that last line, and then it dawned on me pages later and I had to go back to double check. For all the talk of Jaime’s jealousy, Cersei is as bad if not worse, we just don’t see much of it because he never strays. She’d just have anyone involved with Jaime murdered.

      Re: Tommen

      When he tried to stand up to her (he is only 8 in the books) she forced Tommen to whip a boy named Pate until he bled from both cheeks, if Tommen refused or said one word of protest, Cersei would summon Qyburn and remove Pate’s tongue in front of Tommen.

      Mother of the year!!

      Adrianacandle,

      Thank you! That has been bugging me for ages.

      There must be some comparisons to be drawn between Cersei, Brienne and Arya, all 3 pushed back against gender norms for different reasons and with varying success. Although I don’t think Cersei would have gone down that route even if she had been allowed, she would probably find them both ridiculous, she hates being a woman, but she won’t stray from her role.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Adrianacandle,

      Oh so do I, her chapters are great, sometimes they are so outrageous I end up laughing, her favourite line, ‘as useless as nipples on a breastplate’ always amuses me. I think GRRM added a certain thing I mention in the post above to say ‘hey you thought she was alright before her horrible horrible marriage? Well, check this out’. He wanted us to know that she like that from childhood.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Jenny,

      That’s because Robert was a Vile man also, even when we only saw the farce that Ned saw in him.

      Ten Bears,

      She still has those, only difference is that show Cersei at least tried at the beginning to be a better version of herself for her kids, but in the books she doesn’t love her children as much as in the show, at least that’s how I perceive it. Maybe winds tells us that she indeed love her children very much. I think for a show, what they did was better for Cersei, difficult to bring book Cersei 100% to the screen. Still she is interesting in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Young Dragon,

      As for first 3 books, I only really wish that one scene from Arya in it, where she played in the mud, and tore that ladies dress, where the lady tells her in the end that Arya was beautiful. Maybe some other minor stuff I would like to have in it.

      As for Dorne and Iron Island storyline, I think I found the importance. And if that came true in winds I think those storylines have a huge pay-off, and I’m hope you will like those stories better then. I tell that in another post when I get back from work. Got to go.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Ten Bears,

      Yeah, it’s my overall impression that season 8 tried hard to answer all these fans out there and close all these talks about different theories (same with Theon for example). Things like that make me doubt that they really understood ASOIAF and its themes (and they are guys who studied literature), but in the end I believe that they did understand, they just simply chose to make a TV show that became out-of-proportion popular. And that’s to be respected because after all they’re not writers themselves, they’re in the TV business; perhaps if they had cut back a little on those things (which really bothered a lot of people, like that Sandor-Sansa talk) season 8 wouldn’t feel rushed, or forced, because that screentime would have been devoted to other things (in an imaginary universe not the Lannister boys again, lol).
      As for the SanSan fandom, if my memory doesn’t deceive me they did (one of them; David? Dan? Cogman?) answer a question about it and said it’s nonsense.

      Sandor is the one who shows Sansa the real world. She already has a bitter experience with the killing of her wolf pup. But Sansa has a fairytale version of reality in her head (she’s just a 12 y-o kid, who grew up very protected and safe). She thinks that princes, kings and queens and princesses are kind, beautiful, noble, and she is scared of people like Sandor who are seemingly cruel and indifferent to people’s suffering, and who are ugly. And yet it is Sandor who defends her over and over and in the bread riot incident actually saves her from being raped and perhaps killed.
      Between them there’s a version of the beauty and the beast trope. Sandor is truly a beast; he’s ugly, deformed, and Sansa is scared of him up till the very last moment (which is why she doesn’t leave with him). He puts a knife to her throat and forces a song out of her and his narration of the event to Arya actually sounds very sexual; and Sansa was afraid that she’d be raped that night. Sandor, like all beasts in her arc, (Joffrey, Tyrion, now Harry the Heir and of course LF) projects on her his view of the world, what he thinks, believes, likes. Sansa won’t trust anyone if mutual understanding is not reached, if there is no respect between them, if she doesn’t get asked what she wants, believes, likes (which is the original Cocteau version of the trope), even if Sandor saved her over and over, but she did learn that whatever shines is not gold and that there’s gold even in the mud (so to speak).

      Excerpt:
      “What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing. I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they’re all meat, and I’m the butcher.” ACoK, Sansa IV.

      (And for not taking credits for the excerpt, because I’m not one searching the books and copying them, nor do I have a full database like Adriana, I took it from the Wiki of Ice and Fire. You might want to check it out, it’s a very good encyclopedia on ASOIAF with Martin’s blessings)

        Quote  Reply

    130. Ten Bears,

      Forgot:
      “Damsel in distress” may work in the bread riot incident. However I’m not sure it’s this or still part of the BatB trope. It’s a very well-known trope, however Martin subverts it, since Sandor is not the beautiful prince, or knight, and Sansa is generally afraid of him. Sansa herself is the personification of the Damsel. But unlike the fairytales, she has to come down from her captivity tower herself. (no one comes to rescue her from the Lannisters).
      Another scene that has classic Damsel references is the one Jon sees Val at the tower window in Castle Black. Val is beautiful, long blonde hair etc, and the scene is almost the exact Damsel trope replica, but Val is far from “damsel in distress” herself, because she’s a warrior princess (not Ninja assassin however, lol).

        Quote  Reply

    131. Cross-posting from the Emmys thread – I meant to put it here originally.

      I’m not going to try and predict any ways the storylines will go forward in TWoW – though we know from the preview chapters how some of it will proceed. My predictions were usually way off – I’d caught on that Jon was probably Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son but that was quite a popular theory on the internet anyway, so maybe I saw one of those predictions. I’d thought about perhaps there being a Jaime and Sansa hook-up (in the books) because if Sansa was the younger more beautiful queen Jaime was one of the people Cersei held dear – Jaime and Cersei’s rift happened differently in the books to the show, but I was off in that speculation.

      One of the sidelines in the books that I quite liked was the implication that the cat Arya chased through the tunnels was possibly Rhaegar’s and Elia’s daughter’s kitten all grown up and wild. I have cats on the mind because my kitty died this morning. I was aware something wasn’t right three months ago but she’d really been ailing the last week. I’d tried (not with a lot of success) to try and get her to eat something over the last couple of days and of course I wonder now should I just have left her in peace. Still, “tout passe, tout casse, tout lasse”. In the books (I think I can say this without spoiling things) Margery gives Tommen three kittens and Ser Pounce was one of those kittens.

      I’ve had comments disappear in the past though sometimes they have rematerialised from the ether later.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Jenny: Thank you! That has been bugging me for ages.

      There must be some comparisons to be drawn between Cersei, Brienne and Arya, all 3 pushed back against gender norms for different reasons and with varying success. Although I don’t think Cersei would have gone down that route even if she had been allowed, she would probably find them both ridiculous, she hates being a woman, but she won’t stray from her role.

      Yeah, I had been thinking the same thing — and I think they react differently to their own femininity. As you said, Cersei hates femininity but won’t stray from her feminine roles (using her femininity to manipulate in some cases), despite her hatred for her gender. In contrast, I don’t get the impression Brienne or Arya hate being female and would rather be men, like Cersei does, but Brienne and Arya have different issues with feminity. And they don’t appear to hate other women just because they’re women.

      I think a difference between Arya and Brienne is Brienne may have some desire to be traditionally ladylike. But when she had tried, people mocked Brienne because she physically lacks traditionally feminine features and her own traits and talents made her suited to roles (like fighting) that don’t fit Westeros’s gender roles — and even then, Brienne was still met with mockery and rejection so she yearns for approval.

      Brienne’s own septa would tell her how slow, large, and “mannish” she was and the only reason a man would want her would be because of her father. And appears to view wariness of others a necessity:

      I was not always wary, she might have shouted down at Crabb. When I was a little girl I believed that all men were as noble as my father. Even the men who told her what a pretty girl she was, how tall and bright and clever, how graceful when she danced. It was Septa Roelle who had lifted the scales from her eyes. “They only say those things to win your lord father’s favor,” the woman had said. “You’ll find truth in your looking glass, not on the tongues of men.” It was a harsh lesson, one that left her weeping, but it had stood her in good stead at Harrenhal when Ser Hyle and his friends had played their game. A maid has to be mistrustful in this world, or she will not be a maid for long, she was thinking, as the rain began to fall.

      Meanwhile, Arya has some similarities — she struggles with traditionally feminine roles but I don’t think she has a desire to be anyone’s lady in a traditional sense, she’s drawn toward things like combat and horseback riding. Still, Arya is hurt that Sansa excels at all the traditionally ladylike boxes (beautiful, good at ladylike pursuits, met with praise) while the only things Arya is better at than Sansa are things like riding a horse, archery — activities that aren’t approved for highborn ladies. She is chided for her lack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuits and her looks are mocked by Sansa’s friend Jeyne Poole, who calls her “Arya Horseface and [would] neigh whenever [Arya] came near.” Catelyn seems frustrated with Arya’s refusal to comply and believes Arya needes refinement while Arya believes the only ones who ever thought she was pretty were her father and Jon (“Good.” She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon). But like Brienne, despite Arya’s inability (or desire) to fit traditional Westerosi gender roles, she doesn’t resent other women.

      Cersei is one of the most beautiful women in Westeros fulfills Westerosi’s gender roles but despises her own femininity for being limiting. She wants to be a man, resents other women, and resents that despite her and Jaime being twins, they are treated differently and have different futures because of gender, blocking Cersei from what she wants and how she views herself. But like you said, Cersei never seeks to depart from her feminine role and lets her resentment of her femininity fester.

      Or I could be wrong on all this 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    133. Adrianacandle,

      No, I think you are exactly right! You’ve summarised it really well. There was a scene in S3, when Jaime was dying, Brienne told him to stop whining, because he sounded like a bloody woman. I cringed, Brienne would NEVER say that, she has no dislike for women, she wishes she could be more lady like and admires Cat’s ‘woman’s courage’. She is the one who yearns for a nice husband and home (I think GRRM called her Sansa with a sword *cries*) but can’t have it, Arya can have it, but doesn’t want it, and Cersei is…. Cersei lol. Like you say though, Arya does feel inadequate next to Sansa when it comes to a lady’s accomplishments, but she enjoys other things, like Lyanna.

      I think they struggled with Brienne a bit in the show, they didn’t really show how much she was affected by this stuff, hence why people were shocked by her crying in S8. I wonder if it was due to the age, she’s 19 in the book and 30ish in the show, so more comfortable in her skin and position I think.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Efi,

      Yeah, it’s my overall impression that season 8 tried hard to answer all these fans out there and close all these talks about different theories (same with Theon for example). Things like that make me doubt that they really understood ASOIAF and its themes (and they are guys who studied literature), but in the end I believe that they did understand, they just simply chose to make a TV show that became out-of-proportion popular. And that’s to be respected because after all they’re not writers themselves, they’re in the TV business;

      At the time D&D and GRRM came to an agreement to adapt ASOIAF, they didn’t expect that the show would get ahead of the books. They signed up to adapt books, not to write the end of Game of Thrones. And all GRRM could give them there was what he had intended to do.

      But I have no idea why they had to have a shortened two final seasons…

      As for theories, these theories may truly not have been the story GRRM was intending to tell (although, I think the storyline with the Others will be resolved differently because as of yet, there is no Night King, and the Others are characterized somewhat differently. ie: they’re not dead and it seems they have their own motivations).

      He puts a knife to her throat and forces a song out of her and his narration of the event to Arya actually sounds very sexual; and Sansa was afraid that she’d be raped that night.

      Well, Sansa doesn’t actually sing for Sandor in that passage — not in the literal or metaphorical sense.

      It’s my impression that we’re not intended to view anything sexual between Sandor and Sansa. In that aforementioned quoted ACOK passage, Sansa doesn’t seem afraid Sandor will rape her and Sandor doesn’t give this threat. Instead, when Cersei brings Ser Ilyn in to defend them during the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Sansa wishes Sandor were defending them instead because:

      I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

      When Sandor talks about Sansa to Arya, it seems he is deliberately trying to get under Arya’s skin. Arya accuses him of lying about Sansa — and he is:

      “Didn’t you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?” He laughed again. “Or maybe a sister?” He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. “Sansa. That’s it, isn’t it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird.”

      “No,” Arya spat back at him. “I’d like to kill you.”

      “Because I hacked your little friend in two? I’ve killed a lot more than him, I promise you. You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister’s life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

      “You’re lying,” she said at once.

      “You don’t know half as much as you think you do. The Blackwater? Where in seven hells do you think we are? Where do you think we’re going?”

      The scorn in his voice made her hesitate. “Back to King’s Landing,” she said. “You’re bringing me to Joffrey and the queen.” That was wrong, she realized all of a sudden, just from the way he asked the questions. But she had to say something.

      —-

      “Damsel in distress” may work in the bread riot incident. However I’m not sure it’s this or still part of the BatB trope. It’s a very well-known trope, however Martin subverts it, since Sandor is not the beautiful prince, or knight, and Sansa is generally afraid of him. Sansa herself is the personification of the Damsel. But unlike the fairytales, she has to come down from her captivity tower herself. (no one comes to rescue her from the Lannisters).

      Another scene that has classic Damsel references is the one Jon sees Val at the tower window in Castle Black. Val is beautiful, long blonde hair etc, and the scene is almost the exact Damsel trope replica, but Val is far from “damsel in distress” herself, because she’s a warrior princess (not Ninja assassin however, lol).

      The thing here is, Sansa still needs and receives help in getting away from the Lannisters — but it isn’t from gallant knights. She is spirited away by Ser Dontos, who is definitely not the image of a fairytale knight, which is arranged by the slimeball Littlefinger.

      As for Jon and Val, while there is a princess-in-the-tower trope due to Val being viewed as a beautiful “princess” (the wildlings do not consider Val a princess, only Mance’s sister-in-law, as they do not recognize blood royalty) and Stannis holding her in a tower as his captive, it’s not how Jon views her. The scene you’re referencing happens after Val is the only one able to successfully find Tormund when she’s offering to help Jon further. At this, Jon thinks to himself that since Stannis’s and Selsye’s men view Val as a princess, Val would be a warrior princess, rather than a princess who needs rescue.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Jenny: No, I think you are exactly right! You’ve summarised it really well. There was a scene in S3, when Jaime was dying, Brienne told him to stop whining, because he sounded like a bloody woman. I cringed, Brienne would NEVER say that, she has no dislike for women, she wishes she could be more lady like and admires Cat’s ‘woman’s courage’. She is the one who yearns for a nice husband and home (I think GRRM called her Sansa with a sword *cries*) but can’t have it, Arya can have it, but doesn’t want it, and Cersei is…. Cersei lol. Like you say though, Arya does feel inadequate next to Sansa when it comes to a lady’s accomplishments, but she enjoys other things, like Lyanna.

      I think they struggled with Brienne a bit in the show, they didn’t really show how much she was affected by this stuff, hence why people were shocked by her crying in S8. I wonder if it was due to the age, she’s 19 in the book and 30ish in the show, so more comfortable in her skin and position I think.

      Yeah, I agree! It seems Brienne wanted to fit the role of a lady, or at least wanted to be approved of in that way, but was mocked instead so she found something that suited her talents and traits (…. and was mocked for that too but Brienne excelled in this area). And she had true admiration for Catelyn. Meanwhile, Arya had a “wildness” in her, something Ned recognizes is similar to Lyanna, but like you said, finds enjoyment in things that don’t fall under traditional ladylike norms. Arya’s never really seemed interested in being a lady but it seems like she feels it sucks to be unfavorably compared to Sansa all the time.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Efi,

      Typo!
      * “The scene you’re referencing happens after Val is the only one able to successfully find Tormund and when she’s offering to help Jon further.” (ie. I meant to say that the referenced scene happened when Val returns from finding Tormund. Jon and Val are talking and Jon is grateful for Val’s help with Tormund, whereupon Val offers to help more).

      I realized, without the ‘and’, my phrasing could come off as even more convoluted :/

        Quote  Reply

    137. kevin1989,

      Efi,

      Jenny: Oh so do I, her chapters are great, sometimes they are so outrageous I end up laughing, her favourite line, ‘as useless as nipples on a breastplate’ always amuses me. I think GRRM added a certain thing I mention in the post above to say ‘hey you thought she was alright before her horrible horrible marriage? Well, check this out’. He wanted us to know that she like that from childhood.

      Efi: Let’s say she’s still surprising after all these chapters, lol.

      Yup!!! She’s like a treasure trove of terrible character traits! XD

        Quote  Reply

    138. Adrianacandle,

      I would love a Sandor POV. If he lives in the books he should have a POV. A bit like Reek first POV only at the end you know it’s him. And call the chapter The Broken Man.

      Efi,

      But the still question is, is this nature or nurture. Is she born with it, or did she become it, because in the most important life-fase where such personalities bloom, she had a father who only show his children love when they got things done, was proud of Jaime because Jaime was the perfect son who could fight etc. Woman are only for marrying off, Tyrion’s hate that Cersei has for him could also come from how Tywin treated Tyrion. We also know that Tywin blamed him for his wifes dead from the start. She lost her mother at a young age, the only woman that showed her children kindness and love.

      So I think Cersei was born with the probabilities to become the woman she became, I still think Tywin influence brought her there. And I wonder what would have happen with Cersei if she would have grown up with parents like Ned, who let his children be free to be who they want, don’t force them into marriage they don’t want etc. Who showed her what real love is. I think she would have been different then. At least when it comes to the loving others part.

      It’s also a theme of GRRM. Nurture vs nature. That’s also the question with the Targaryen madness that will come into play. Is it their nature that drove them insane, or is it their life style.
      I think Theon is also a good example of it. In the end he is a man of family, who want to do the right thing but failed. But what would have happened if he didn’t grow up under Ned. He probably would have become a raping Iron Islander.

        Quote  Reply

    139. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      I don’t understand it, why not give you a cute dress like the present and future, but with old-mode clothes. That are things that teachers should know how children think. I can understand why it affected you.

      Adrianacandle: Yup! XD I feel Sandor from the books to the show is a pretty consistent adaptation 🙂

      I think D&D didn’t have the balls to tell Rory that they changed his character from the books.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Tron79,

      Or name it “The Broken Chicken man”

      Did you already read, the Lost lord? If you already answered that above, just ignore it. I want to debate something with you about a theory.

      Jenny,

      I think Cersei only loved Joffrey somehow in the books. And I wonder if the theory

      That she and Jaime are Targs

      is true, she has so much in common with

      Arys targ

        Quote  Reply

    141. Efi,

      I had forgotten, she did sing a song for Sandor in ACOK Sansa VII when he put the dagger to her throat and before that, she does wonder why he’s drunk in her room, on her bed before he reveals he’s going to flee. Sorry about that! Totally blanked! But there still wasn’t anything sexual or intimate between them that I can recall?

      And you might be referring to this passage too?

      His eyes opened. “You remember where the heart is?” he asked in a hoarse whisper.

      As still as stone she stood. “I… I was only…”

      “Don’t lie,” he growled. “I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse.

      Go on, do it.” When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” A spasm of pain twisted his face. “Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy… avenge your little Michael…”  

      “Mycah.” Arya stepped away from him. “You don’t deserve the gift of mercy.”

      The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said “said, “A real wolf would finish a wounded animal.”  

      Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they’ll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. “You shouldn’t have hit me with an axe,” she said. “You should have saved my mother.” She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

      Again, it seems like Sandor is trying to rile Arya up so she kills him. It doesn’t seem he’s talking about Sansa this way for any sexual purposes, it’s to get Arya to finish him off and of course, Arya refuses. Especially after he reminds her of Mycah and doesn’t even remember his name right.

        Quote  Reply

    142. kevin1989: I would love a Sandor POV. If he lives in the books he should have a POV. A bit like Reek first POV only at the end you know it’s him. And call the chapter The Broken Man.

      Me too. We have all these POVs assessing and narrating his actions, words, and expressions but I’ve love to know what’s going on inside his head.

        Quote  Reply

    143. kevin1989,

      I don’t know how I feel about it tbh, Tywin always suspected Tyrion, but it would be funny if

      his golden children were actually Targ’s. I just looked it up, and I think Cersei killed Melara when she was only 10/11, I thought she was in her teens, that kind of makes it worse. She seems to have a narcissistic personality disorder, would she have been a murderer no matter what? I don’t know, I’m leaning towards yes.

      I think its something that we will never find out, like fAegon’s true origin, unless he pops on a dragon.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Adrianacandle,

      Sansa: “I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.”
      ————
      And there we have the character of the Hound in a nutshell.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Ten Bears,

      Right!

      However, there is this moment in the books (in the chapter I had blanked on), when he’s drunk, and he does get pretty close to harming Sansa. I don’t know what he would have done if she didn’t sing for him:

      Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, please don’t. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

      Gentle Mother, font of mercy,
      save our sons from war, we pray,
      stay the swords and stay the arrows,
      let them know a better day.
      Gentle Mother, strength of women,
      help our daughters through this fray,
      soothe the wrath and tame the fury,
      teach us all a kinder way.

      She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking.

      Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.

      But when Sansa recalls that moment (the last paragraph) afterward, she invents a kiss (known as the unkiss), even though it’s not here in this passage and Sandor never mentions a kiss as having happened either. There are a lot of theories about the unkiss, what it might mean, and why Sansa is misremembering.

      I interpreted that moment as one of closeness as I, personally, didn’t see anything sexual in it, especially since Sansa’s still a fairly naive 12-year old here but this is one of the things people have interpreted in a variety of ways and something that SanSan shippers have run with.

      But I just noticed, what does “wetness” mean?? 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    146. Adrianacandle,

      In the books: ”Still, Arya is hurt that Sansa excels at all the traditionally ladylike boxes (beautiful, good at ladylike pursuits, met with praise) while the only things Arya is better at than Sansa are things like riding a horse, archery — activities that aren’t approved for highborn ladies. She is chided for her lack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuits and her looks are mocked by Sansa’s friend Jeyne Poole, who calls her “Arya Horseface and [would] neigh whenever [Arya] came near.” Catelyn seems frustrated with Arya’s refusal to comply and believes Arya needes refinement while Arya believes the only ones who ever thought she was pretty were her father and Jon.”

      ______
      Funny how the proverbial ugly ducking wound up as a swan on the show. (Do the comparisons of Arya to Lyanna portend a similar outcome?)

      “Lovely girl!” – Jaqen S2.
      “I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty! – Hot Pie S7e2.
      “All I know is that you’re beautiful and I love you.” – Gendry S8e4

      Meanwhile, what’d Lyanna Mormont say about Sansa in S6e7? Something like “As far as I know Lady Sansa is a Bolton. Or is she a Lannister? I’ve heard conflicting reports.”
      …Which would make her younger sister Arya the incumbent trueborn Stark princess.

      With the disclaimer that I’m aware this is subjective and I am biased: By S8 Arya was no longer the androgynous girl who could pass for a boy. Her looks could no longer be mocked and it was not just her father and Jon who thought she was pretty. By the final season Arya had arguably become more attractive than her so-called “pretty sister.”

      Notwithstanding Sansa’s hurried coronation in the concluding montage of the final episode, which didn’t allow for nuance, might there have been a contingent of Northerners for whom Arya’s “lack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuits” made her more, and not less, palatable as a leader? Without minimizing the importance of organizing grain stores, surely there had to be positive buzz after Arya Stark saved everyone in the North from being transformed into NK wall decorations or undead zombies.

      I’d suggest there would be a groundswell of support for the…

      Younger, More Beautiful Queen 👸🏻🗡

      (Yeah, I know, she’d probably pull a Jon and protest “I don’t want it!” and threaten “Do NOT call me ‘Your Grace’ or I’ll cut your throat.”)

        Quote  Reply

    147. Adrianacandle,

      From the scene in the show in S4e10, it seemed clear to me that the gravely injured Sandor was saying those nasty things to try to goad Arya into killing him, after asking nicely didn’t work. Finally, after he couldn’t piss her off, he pleaded: “Do I have to beg you?”

      I interpreted the book passage the same way.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Adrianacandle,

      Quoted passage = ”Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.”

      But I just noticed, what does “wetness” mean?? 🙁”
      _______
      A: Tears.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      From the scene in the show in S4e10, it seemed clear to me that the gravely injured Sandor was saying those nasty things to try to goad Arya into killing him, after asking nicely didn’t work. Finally, after he couldn’t piss her off, he pleaded: “Do I have to beg you?”

      I interpreted the book passage the same way.

      I LITERALLY interpreted it the same way!

        Quote  Reply

    150. Ten Bears,

      Yes! As time goes on, Arya is getting prettier and I think she is growing to look quite a bit like Lyanna, who is said to have been quite beautiful. I’ve also seen a few discussions on who is prettier — Sansa or Arya — but I think each have a different kind of beauty. I’d imagine Sansa is more “classically” beautiful while Arya might be more striking.

      Ned to Arya:

      “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.

      Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

      Kindly Man to Arya:

      “You believe this is the only place for you.” It was as if he’d heard her thoughts. “You are wrong in that. You would find softer service in the household of some merchant. Or would you sooner be a courtesan, and have songs sung of your beauty?

      “Wear this when you are here,” the priest said, “but know that you shall have little need of it for the present. On the morrow you will go to Izembaro to begin your first apprenticeship. Take what clothes you will from the vaults below. The city watch is looking for a certain ugly girl, known to frequent the Purple Harbor, so best you have a new face as well.” He cupped her chin, turned her head this way and that, nodded. “A pretty one this time, I think. As pretty as your own. Who are you, child?”

      Bran confusing Lyanna for Arya in his first greenseeing visions to the past of Lyanna and Benjen:

      Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

      But her beauty might be hidden under her lack of care for her appearance:

      Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface.

        Quote  Reply

    151. kevin1989,

      You wrote at 5:17 am… ”As for Dorne and Iron Island storyline, I think I found the importance. And if that came true in winds I think those storylines have a huge pay-off, and I’m hope you will like those stories better then. I tell that in another post when I get back from work. Got to go.”

      _____
      Alright Kevin, don’t leave me in suspense! 🙃
      What’s the importance of the Dorne and Iron Islands storylines you discovered? What are the “huge payoffs” going to be (in TWOW)?

      For me, the Dorne and Iron Islands story lines amounted to unnecessary and unfulfilling detours.

      (I did kind of like Tyene and her flirtation with Bronn… but that didn’t go anywhere. He should’ve tried to rescue her from Cersei’s dungeon. Seems like Bronn forgot about her, just like the showrunners decided to euthanize Doran Martell and pull the plug on the whole Dorne subplot.)

        Quote  Reply

    152. Ten Bears: Notwithstanding Sansa’s hurried coronation in the concluding montage of the final episode, which didn’t allow for nuance, might there have been a contingent of Northerners for whom Arya’s “lack of skill (and interest) in traditional feminine pursuits” made her more, and not less, palatable as a leader? Without minimizing the importance of organizing grain stores, surely there had to be positive buzz after Arya Stark saved everyone in the North from being transformed into NK wall decorations or undead zombies.

      That’s an interesting thing to consider and it reminded me that Arya still has some applicable skills she excels at over Sansa:

      It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse. Well, that and manage a household. Sansa had never had much of a head for figures. If she did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Ten Bears: A: Tears.

      That’s what I thought too! I was worried that I may have been reading it wrong.

      As for ripping cloth, I had assumed he was bandaging his injuries? Would that be right? He leaves right after so I’m not sure what other purposes he’d rip cloth for but it might be an off-day for me. (No, it already is. I’ve already forgotten that the hour of 11:00 comes right after 10:00 and there isn’t another hour in-between, meaning there aren’t actually three hours between 9:00 and 11:00. So much like Sansa, I don’t have a head for figures 😉 We only had Art Math at Art School…. the subjective kind of math…. Where 1+1=2 is only an interpretation ;D )

        Quote  Reply

    154. Ten Bears: From the scene in the show in S4e10, it seemed clear to me that the gravely injured Sandor was saying those nasty things to try to goad Arya into killing him, after asking nicely didn’t work. Finally, after he couldn’t piss her off, he pleaded: “Do I have to beg you?”

      I interpreted the book passage the same way.

      Yes, like you and Mr Derp, this was my interpretation of the book passages too.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Adrianacandle,

      “Or I could be wrong on all this”

      No, you’re absolutely right on every little detail, haha!
      Only to add that that Cersei believes it’s a huge injustice that she doesn’t have the power because she is a woman while all along she is Tywin’s first-born child. Jamie was the second twin to come into the world, holding her foot.
      I wonder if at some point it will be revealed in the books that the only reason Cersei wanted Jamie was for destroying her father’s dream of making Jamie lord. Jamie refuses to quit the kings guard for becoming lord of Casterly Rock because only this way he’ll be close to Cersei. (god, he’s so naive!)

        Quote  Reply

    156. Adrianacandle,

      Not fanboying here: Especially after looking at those old photographs of Maisie Williams on grrm.livejournal from 2009 and 2010, I’ve noticed how completely different she can look just with a different hairstyle. In recent years, just by changing hairstyles and makeup, she can look like a different person.
      It might have been interesting to take advantage of her chameleon-like qualities to demonstrate the Book! Catelyn’s quote that you cited:

      Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface.

      Then again, the fandom would’ve probably revolted if the show had done a Hollywood teen flick-type makeover scene (e.g., with glammed up Arya in a dress sashaying down a staircase).

        Quote  Reply

    157. Ten Bears: Then again, the fandom would’ve probably revolted if the show had done a Hollywood teen flick-type makeover scene (e.g., with glammed up Arya in a dress sashaying down a staircase).

      The ASOIAF Princess Diaries!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUjlBP5gUrQ

      I always felt that quote from Catelyn is such a mother thing to say. She means well but it’s like a typical mum-criticism/compliment balled into one. She’s right! And I think Maisie was the perfect person to play Arya! But to hear stuff like that is never fun XD;

        Quote  Reply

    158. Adrianacandle,

      ”As for ripping cloth, I had assumed he was bandaging his injuries? Would that be right? He leaves right after so I’m not sure what other purposes he’d rip cloth for but it might be an off-day for me….

      ______

      From the passage you quoted, I can’t figure out what the sound of “ripping cloth” could signify. Did Sandor come into Sansa’s room with open wounds from the battle that needed bandaging?

      That book scene takes place in the dark, right? (”The room was too dark for her to see him”)

      I have no clue. Since he can’t be seen, my first guess would be that he was tearing off a piece of his clothing to wipe the tears from his cheek. (I’d hate to think he was shredding her sheets or bedspread.)

        Quote  Reply

    159. Efi: I wonder if at some point it will be revealed in the books that the only reason Cersei wanted Jamie was for destroying her father’s dream of making Jamie lord. Jamie refuses to quit the kings guard for becoming lord of Casterly Rock because only this way he’ll be close to Cersei. (god, he’s so naive!)

      You know, I think she actually does love Jaime — but not in the pure selfless love way, but as an extension of herself, her twin, her mirror, they came into the world together. The totally narcissistic way!

      I do think you’re right that “Cersei believes it’s a huge injustice that she doesn’t have the power because she is a woman while all along she is Tywin’s first-born child. Jamie was the second twin to come into the world, holding her foot.” I think Cersei totally resents Jaime because of this (being Tywin’s heir and male, two things she wants) but I do think there’s love there.

        Quote  Reply

    160. Jenny:
      Ten Bears,

      I’ll have you know that ‘She’s all that’ was a cinematic masterpiece.She took her glasses off and everything.

      F*ck yes!
      I don’t care if it’s corny or manipulative, those kind of makeover scenes work on me every time.
      (As I recall, Rachel Leigh Cook’s descending the stairway scene in “She’s All That” was spoofed in “Another Teen Movie” two years later. )

        Quote  Reply

    161. kevin1989,

      “It’s also a theme of GRRM. Nurture vs nature. That’s also the question with the Targaryen madness that will come into play. Is it their nature that drove them insane, or is it their life style.”

      That’s exactly what I mean, yes. Nature vs nurture. But I’m not sure that Martin speaks for “nature”, I don’t think that he believes that nature defines who people are when they grow up. Tywin was a cruel man; this is why his son kills him in the end, and the other son sheds no tear as he stands guard over his dead body. Tywin only had roles to give to his children (social, political) and absolutely no love. So I guess they cling to each other in the books, Cersei and Jamie are together and Tyrion clings to Jamie to find some normality.
      The Targaryens were not inherently mad, I think. Incest of course means health problems for the offspring, and their children died early, those that survived married each other to bear more children like that. Their problem was the incest, which they believed was their prerogative. Their “exceptionalism doctrine” led to their social isolation from the rest of the Westerosi nobility, which is a fatal mistake if you’re the supreme ruler. They meant to rule like the gods of the Olymp (read: Valyria), not like normal kings and queens supported by the aristocracy and the people of their country.
      [this is partly why I think Dany’s burning of KL will be a political move, not because she simply “goes mad” like the show showed us; they tried to give a political context to it, but it was very superficial, and it failed]

        Quote  Reply

    162. Jenny,

      Re: Makeovers
      See also…
      Anne Hathaway in “The Princess Diaries”
      Michelle Trachtenberg in “Ice Princess”
      Mandy Moore in “A Walk to Remember”

        Quote  Reply

    163. Ten Bears: From the passage you quoted, I can’t figure out what the sound of “ripping cloth” could signify. Did Sandor come into Sansa’s room with open wounds from the battle that needed bandaging?

      That book scene takes place in the dark, right? (”The room was too dark for her to see him”)

      I have no clue. Since he can’t be seen, my first guess would be that he was tearing off a piece of his clothing to wipe the tears from his cheek. (I’d hate to think he was shredding her sheets or bedspread.)

      Maybe it is that! I know he had just been in battle (the Battle of Blackwater) and he is wounded but when he is commanded to hold the river, there is wildfire there and he refuses, having lost quite a few men already:

      “Did you think we hired you to fight in a tourney? Shall I bring you a nice iced milk and a bowl of raspberries? No? Then get on your f*cking horse. You too, dog.”

      The blood on Clegane’s face glistened red, but his eyes showed white. He drew his longsword.

      He is afraid, Tyrion realized, shocked. The Hound is frightened. He tried to explain their need. “They’ve taken a ram to the gate, you can hear them, we need to disperse them—”

      “Open the gates. When they rush inside, surround them and kill them.” The Hound thrust the point of his longsword into the ground and leaned upon the pommel, swaying.

      “I’ve lost half my men. Horse as well. I’m not taking more into that fire.”

      Ser Mandon Moore moved to Tyrion’s side, immaculate in his enameled white plate.

      “The King’s Hand commands you.”

      “Bugger the King’s Hand.” Where the Hound’s face was not sticky with blood, it was pale as milk. “Someone bring me a drink.” A gold cloak officer handed him a cup. Clegane took a swallow, spit it out, flung the cup away. “Water? F*ck your water. Bring me wine.”

      He is dead on his feet. Tyrion could see it now. The wound, the fire . . . he’s done, I need to find someone else, but who? Ser Mandon? He looked at the men and knew it would not do. Clegane’s fear had shaken them. Without a leader, they would refuse as well, and Ser Mandon . . . a dangerous man, Jaime said, yes, but not a man other men would follow.

        Quote  Reply

    164. Ten Bears:
      Jenny,

      Re: Makeovers
      See also…Anne Hathaway in “The Princess Diaries”Michelle Trachtenberg in “Ice Princess”Mandy Moore in “A Walk to Remember”

      My Fair Lady! The Ball! From street flower girl to convincing princess!

        Quote  Reply

    165. Adrianacandle,

      Lol. Pimple!
      He’s just been in a battle. He’s bloody and sweaty and perhaps he’s crying too but not from regret.
      But he’s pushed her on the bed and the whole scene happens on her bed.
      This is not to say that he intends to rape her, just that it’s terrifying for a 12 y-o girl.

      And no, I meant the first passage, not the second, where Sandor deliberately makes the whole thing too vile to induce Arya to kill him. But perhaps my reading was extreme.

        Quote  Reply

    166. Ten Bears,

      He tore of his cloak and left it on the floor.
      His cloak is the kings guard cloak; white, but now it’s dirty and bloody from the battle (a bit burned too?) I don’t remember. It’s a symbol of everything Sandor hates. Sansa takes it later and covers herself with it, and afterwards she keeps it in her chest underneath her silks.

        Quote  Reply

    167. Efi,

      Yes, she definitely terrified that he was going to kill her.

      But I didn’t read anything sexual from this Arya-Sandor passage where he talks about Sansa? I read a lot of irritation and an attempt to goad Arya after Arya brings up Gregor and Sandor figures out there are issues between Arya and her sister but not sexual yearning or anything like that:

      It wasn’t the first time he had talked of killing the Mountain. “But he’s your brother,” Arya said dubiously.

      “Didn’t you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?” He laughed again. “Or maybe a sister?” He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. “Sansa. That’s it, isn’t it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird.”

      “No,” Arya spat back at him. “I’d like to kill you.”

      “Because I hacked your little friend in two? I’ve killed a lot more than him, I promise you. You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister’s life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

      “You’re lying,” she said at once.

      “You don’t know half as much as you think you do. The Blackwater? Where in seven hells do you think we are? Where do you think we’re going?”

        Quote  Reply

    168. Efi: He tore of his cloak and left it on the floor.
      His cloak is the kings guard cloak; white, but now it’s dirty and bloody from the battle (a bit burned too?) I don’t remember. It’s a symbol of everything Sandor hates. Sansa takes it later and covers herself with it, and afterwards she keeps it in her chest underneath her silks.

      I know he removed his cloak and left it on Sansa’s floor — if the cloak requires tearing at something to remove it in a hurry, that would make the most sense for the sound of cloth ripping, considering Sansa finds it soon after. How are these cloaks attached? I don’t know how they’re actually attached D:

      Thinking about it, they would have to be securely fastened so a tearing sound would make sense if you’re not willing to fiddle with the fastenings…

      Cloth ripping = cloak removal, then? Mystery solved? 🙂

      It’s been a super off day for me….

        Quote  Reply

    169. Efi,
      I think the problem is that in the first 4 seasons the show was a politics show with character-building. That had 2 battle-sequences in it because they were needed. After that it become the other way around. the seasons were build around that battle sequence, and the action become the first priority and the politics and character building were second. I think that change was a huge problem, and I think that change was also the reason why GRRM didn’t work anymore on the show. I mean the whole “I’m working on winds” excuse doesn’t work, he is heavily working on the prequels. So I really think GRRM and D&D had a big disagreement about where the story was headed, that he just backed out completely, he gave them some things to work with and that’s it.

      And the Q-ratings is also a huge problem of season 5 and on-worth.

        Quote  Reply

    170. Dame of Mercia,

      I’m sorry for your loss. I hope he had a wonderful life. How old did he became? or was it a girl? Name?

      And about Jon=Rheagar+Lyanna. What I think will happen in winds that is of course the same as in the show, we will find out that Rheagar and Lyanna had a son that Ned takes but I think there will be one difference. The story is already heavily with baby swaps. I think the difference is that Ned really did cheat on Cat in the books. And he really got a child with Ashara Dayne. We know that after the tower of Joy Ned went to the Daynes (Can’t remember their home-name). I think Ned switched the baby’s. One to keep the son of Lyanna safe. And second, because Ned wants to raise his own child instead of the child of his sister, and he knew his nephew would be safe with Ashara. And I think Darkstar is really the son of Rheagar and Lyanna.
      And I still wonder if

      Aegon is real or not. I think Varys story holds and he did switch the bodies but I have a feeling that Illyrio killed that boy and put his own son as Aegon. That would explain his fondness towards Aegon. But my other guess is that Aegon is really Aegon and why Illyrio reacts this way is because he has lost his own son with Serra, or Serra was pregnant when she died. Illyrio also cried when Viserys died, and he was a ass, so Illyrio cares somehow.

      The second reason why I think this will happen is that GRRM told he has a big plottwist in winds a couple of months ago. That won’t probably be something small, but I think with the main-storyline, So Jon.
      The third reason is, GRRM is against monarchy. I think what he will do is show us Jon and

      Aegon

      not having a true claim to the throne but being good kings. And having Daenerys with her claim, turn mad. To show that monarch is not a good way.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Adrianacandle,

      Yup. Though I’m a pre-books fan, it does seem likely that Sandor ripping off his KG cloak was the tearing sound Sansa heard.

      From the quoted passages. I’m left to wonder why Sansa keeping that cloak as if it were a cherished artifact didn’t have some deeper meaning – one which the show didn’t delve into. In fact, I don’t recall Sansa ever mentioning Sandor once after the Battle of the Blackwater in S2. Whatever subtexts there may have been in the books (prompting the “SanSan” speculation?), any implied emotional connection between Sansa and Sandor in the books, e.g., the “unkiss” was omitted from the show.

      As I recall, the only mentions of Sandor & Sansa from the time of their parting until the wonky abbreviated “reunion” in S8e4, were Sandor telling a disbelieving Arya how he’d saved Sansa from gang rape during the KL riot (a fairly faithful adaptation of the dialogue from the books quoted above) in S3e9 (?); Sandor trying to goad Arya into killing him in S4e10*; and a brief mention in early S7 during a LF-Sansa conversation while watching Brienne, in which one of them commented that Brienne had defeated the Hound in single combat. (I found it a bit odd that Sansa expressed no emotion at the mention of Sandor’s fate, just as I found it conspicuously strange that in S6e2 Brienne related to Sansa that she’d seen Arya with “a man” instead of naming Sandor Clegane…)

      Again, I can only guess that the showrunners chose to focus on the Sandor & Arya relationship to the exclusion of Sandor & Sansa – as well as Jon & Arya. (I suppose one could also argue that the significant time devoted to the show-only Jon & Sansa story line from S6 through S7 came at the expense of a meaningful Jon & Arya story line in S8.)

      * When he brought up “your sister, your pretty sister” and said “I should have f*cked her bloody; at least I’d have one happy memory”, I found it awful – yet sad – at the same time. Kind of tragic to realize he was facing the end of his life without a single happy memory to show for it. 😢

        Quote  Reply

    172. Jenny,

      I think with Aegon it doesn’t matter in the end if he is real or not.

      Maybe we don’t even get the answer, but GRRM asks us a question instead. Does it matter who has the bigger claim, when the king you have, protect his people, give prosper to his people and all that a king should be. We are now so much, and the show is prove of it, how we reacted when Jon didn’t get the throne, on who is the true heir, instead of asking if that should matter. And in the end no matter if he is true or not, I think we will feel sorry for him if he dies by Dany’s hand. We don’t think, she is the true heir, he should die. We think, what gives her the right to feel acclaimed to be queen, when he was good for the people.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Dame of Mercia,

      So sorry to hear about your kitty. I’m still mourning my lovebird four months after she went to Rainbow Bridge. (If you’re not familiar with the “Rainbow Bridge” poem I can find it and post it.)

        Quote  Reply

    174. Mr Derp: I LITERALLY interpreted it the same way!

      Shame. *bells* Shame. *Bells* Shame. *Bells*

      From now on. Using the word Literally wrong, will be sentence to a walk of shame. Who is with me?

      Ten Bears,

      Well Dorne is much different in the books. So is Tyene, and the sand-snakes. You can’t compare book and show storyline of Dorne.

      To begin what I think should be know to understand why I think Dance and Feast are not fillers is that the story is not Jon and Dany. Look at most storylines from even the first 3 books, how everything starts, who hold the progression of those storylines. You can go back to 2 characters. One is Littlefinger, who is busy with creating chaos. But he has all the strings attached to that chaos. My guess is he doesn’t wants to be king. He wants to be destroy the monarchy in the way it is presented right now. Littlefinger worked himself to the top, he is the richest man in Westeros. But still he is a nobody when it comes to titles. And yes he has titles, but empty titles. What he does is destroying every house that is Warden in a kingdom. I think Littlefinger is trying to bring some kind of Capitalism to Westeros, not being king.

      As for Varys is the opposite, Varys wants order. To put the right king on the throne, that he controls. That executes the rules Varys wants in the country. A bit like Karl Marx. For the good of the realm/people. Peace over freedom.

      Both of these 2 has their strings. And if you count those strings, almost every storyline in the books is connected to it. Now my next post for fear of wotw purgetory, I put my connection.

        Quote  Reply

    175. kevin1989,

      I couldn’t agree more. At first I didn’t believe it, but then the story and especially season 8 was all about Q-ratings. I wouldn’t mind some Bronn here and there, but having him at the council was… just ugh! They totally invested on Dany, Tyrion, Bronn and Sandor. It’s as if they didn’t try at all. Minimum effort for the conclusion of such a big story.
      Anyway, I was really hoping that we’ll see the books. But Martin’s last interview ruined that hope too. Perhaps we’ll see WoW, but I doubt we’ll see ADoS. And I just don’t get it, to tell you the truth. Normally if there’s a story in your head and you’re so creative, you have this huge urge to get it out there. He knows exactly where the story’s going, because he planted the foreshadow so carefully from book 1. So why not just write it and get it over with? Or perhaps that’s the answer, that he knows every little detail now, he’s made it out in his head, so there’s no need to put it in writing. As if this urge blew out somehow.

        Quote  Reply

    176. kevin1989,

      ”Shame. *bells* Shame. *Bells* Shame. *Bells*

      From now on. Using the word “literally” wrong, will be sentence to a walk of shame. Who is with me?

      _____
      I’m with you 100%!
      Can we add the use of “bittersweet” for any reason as a violation punishable by a Walk of Shame?

        Quote  Reply

    177. kevin1989,

      First Griff/

      Aegon

      is already tied to Varys.
      Now we had Dorne. Which had a plottwist at the end of Feast. Somebody betrayed Arianne, but who is the big question. There are many ideas, but most of them suggest somebody that the character of Arianne or the readers won’t care for, and is not tied in to the bigger picture, so why put it in. No it has to be something huge, that will crush Arianne and also is connected to Varys. The one that betrayed Arianne is

      Tyene, the one Arianne sees as her best friend, as her own sister, and she shares everything with her. Strange because every other character views Tyene as manipulative, and the most dangerous of the sandsnakes. It’s the only sandsnake that Doran fears. But why would Tyene betray Arianne. What has she to gain. What is her bigger role in this. The answer is Varys. And Tyene mother, remember her mother was a septa. Now back to Aegon storyline. Didn’t Septa Lemore gave birth, that means she has a child. My guess is that Septa Lemore is Tyene’s mother. And that’s how Varys hold the strings in Dorne. Myrcella couldn’t be crowned because that would be a problem of Aegon’s invasion. And Tyene is working for that. And at the same time Tyene is going to Kings Landing and I suspect she will kill Tommen there. And probably fail to kill Cersei. That results in war with Dorne.

        Quote  Reply

    178. kevin1989,

      Now the tie with Iron Island is more simple.

      Euron is in some freaky godly shit. And he is getting a priests of every faith. He still misses the old gods, the others. He will be tied with the White Walker invasion. And Iron Island is also tied in with Stannis with Asha/Yara and Theon. And with Daenerys with Victorion. They will be the catalyst of all the bad things that will befall in dream of Springs.

      I think later today or tomorrow I post some theories I like.

      Efi,
      Agree. Aegon is a perfect example of it that’s why I believe he is the real deal somehow. To show that Nurture is more important. But what I meant was and I think GRRM sees that too. Nature is still a small part. Some things you are born with. But the nurture can push that to different places. Somebody who is very emotional can be pushed into a unstable person who destroys everything, relationship work etc. But can also be nurtured into somebody creative. Same with Cersei. I think she inherit the Targ genes. But Tywin push those genes into a place that Cersei became Cersei. And I wonder what Ned would have done with such genes. I think if Cersei had Ned as her father she would have become something different. Love is important.
      Agree about your view of the Targs. Their lifestyle. Because I wonder if Arys with his genes would just be a commoner if he would maybe bloomed more into the caring person he was before.
      About Dany I think her burning KL has connections with Euron. With his freaky shit he is pulling with his magic. I think he will push Dany insane somehow with his prohecy’s and warnings. Yes I think Euron is behind those paranoia visions she gets.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Efi,

      About GRRM (not) writing the books:
      ”…And I just don’t get it, to tell you the truth. Normally if there’s a story in your head and you’re so creative, you have this huge urge to get it out there. He knows exactly where the story’s going, because he planted the foreshadow so carefully from book 1. So why not just write it and get it over with?”

      ————-
      You pinpointed the reason. When he had the story in his head, he had the creative urge to “get it out there” – almost as if the story flowed from his brain to the page on its own.

      From his interview, I get the distinct impression that the voices of his characters used to populate his head, and he once had an abiding love for them. But he’s lost that feeling and can’t bring it back.

      And on that note, I offer this dedication to GRRM: “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feeling” by The Righteous Brothers.

      🎶You’ve lost that lovin’ feelin’,
      Whoa, that lovin’ feelin’,
      You’ve lost that lovin’ feelin’,
      Now it’s gone, gone, gone….🎵

        Quote  Reply

    180. Efi,

      Agree, strange after season 8 aired I was happy with the season. I still think that’s where the books also need to go, but different route. And now I’m busy with my project, and I read winds chapters that already are out. And I remember how the show handled those stories with action instead of drama, somehow my excitement for season 5 till 8 dropped a lot. The intelligent way the books told it (like season 1 till 4 told those stories, I didn’t mind those huge changed from season 4 because the essence of those books were there), to a story that it’s main goal was action. It became mainstream. Everything needs to be bigger instead of better. Did we dislike season 3 less than 2 because season 3 didn’t contain a huge battle sequence? And it’s a shame because making the story move faster, resulted also in a short battle sequence in Meereen which only was Dragonaction. Instead of what is happening in the books. They could have had the action in 3 episodes. 2 of 10 minutes. And one big final episode only about the battle of Meereen.

      now I rate the seasons: 4 > 1 > 6 (still high because this one focused on the characters not the plot) > 3 > 2 > 7 > 8 > 5.

        Quote  Reply

    181. Ten Bears,

      I first needed to look up, didn’t know what awfully nice meant I though, awful and nice strange combo.

      But I know how it feels to lose a pet, it’s horrible. For me they’re part of the family. When my dog died it took months before I could even pass by a bit. Still missing something in the house.
      And I’m a animal person. I love pet-stories. And the love people have for them.

      Ten Bears,

      Not really, that is coming off lightly, use of that word, is punishable by getting send to the wall, only real time you can use that word is when you’re talking about Bitter Lemon “That drink I had yesterday was bittersweet”. Any other use right to the wall. And for all the woman, that means dealing with Tormunds flirting. So be on you’re best behavior.

        Quote  Reply

    182. Ten Bears,

      Still for me that’s not a real excuse.
      Fist I want to say that I still love GRRM for putting these books on the shelf for me to dive into, to cherish these characters. So it’s not meant as an insult but more a view of me.
      Martin’s line of work is pretty privileged in my opinion. I’m not saying writing books is easy, and not stressful and that you don’t have problems with it. But in the end it’s a more privileged profession compared to what many people on this earth do. We all have to work (if you’re healthy), how many plumbers, house builders, nurses etc work at 60+ with health problems and back pains and still need to perform every single day for a little wage. And they don’t have the excuse that they don’t feel enthusiasm etc. They need to work for their food on the table, and their house. Some even work years without not wanting to work. GRRM has the privileged to not worry about it. His worry is finishing 2 books where he already have written 5 off. In which he earn enough of it, because of his fans paying for it, so for me that’s not much to ask for when compare to many professions.

      And I see it also as a project he started which he sold, but a project that isn’t finished. And then he goes to other project without finishing his first project (which is a also a huge problem for his concentration on the books, so I don’t understand his reasoning to start these projects with HBO). I mean if for instance a plumber has a project with somebody, and he doesn’t finish the first house completely and halfway through he goes to the next, he doesn’t get payed till he does. And for me that’s the same with GRRM. His first project is his SoIaF books and for me I don’t see every book as a single project because it’s a saga, I see all 7 as one big project. Everything next too it are his second and third and fourth etc project.

        Quote  Reply

    183. Reek,

      That’s not what he or she said. And if you look into what Q-ratings mean you understand what he or she meant.

      Simply put. If a certain actor/Character is put more on screen and given more money to the company, in this Case HBO. The story needs to be altered to give that actor/Character more screen-time.
      And that’s also happen with GoT a lot. The dragon score high Q-Ratings. The dire wolves not. So dragons are extended and the Direwolves put to a minimum.

      Look at it this way. What if with Harry Potter the Q-ratings were heavily in favor of Ron instead of Hermione . And they decide to minimize Hermione and maximize Ron. So they were forced to changed the story of 7.1 That Hermione walked away instead of Ron. Which wouldn’t make sense but it would helped the Q-rating.
      Q-ratings is very bad when it is use in TV-shows. It downgrade the artistic freedom, and more rules are added by the company that they need to implement. For instance in the past they always needed to have a funny sidekick to the boring main character, because that scored. Or the very macho-man who happens to be the main character, always got with the most beautiful woman. It are tropes that are used to maximize income, not perse maximize quality. In the past HBO was against Q-ratings. Now they use it. (But was expected when AT&T bough HBO, this was already feared then)

        Quote  Reply

    184. Reek:
      kevin1989,

      so who should they have focused on in season 8 then? just curious

      The one that the story was about. son(g) of Ice and Fire, Jon snow?

      But the Q-rating is a problem that already begin in season 5. Some storylines were move to the side, others got more screentime because of it. And as I stated this problem with Q-ratings is not D&D fault. It’s HBO itself who control the process too much.

        Quote  Reply

    185. Reek:
      kevin1989,

      so who should they have focused on in season 8 then? just curious

      Arya. Arya. Arya & Sandor. (Done) Arya & Jon. Arya & Beric. Arya & Hot Pie. Arya & Nymeria. Ghost & Nymeria. Jon & Ghost. Arya & Nymeria & wolf pack. Kinvara. Sandor & Sansa. Needle & Arya. More direwolves and less – I mean fewer -dragons.
      And most important: Ditch that cackling clown Euron. Good actor in a wasted role and wasted screen time.

        Quote  Reply

    186. Ten Bears: Arya. Arya. Arya & Sandor. (Done) Arya & Jon. Arya & Beric. Arya & Hot Pie. Arya & Nymeria. Ghost & Nymeria. Jon & Ghost. Arya & Nymeria & wolf pack. Kinvara. Sandor & Sansa. Needle & Arya. More direwolves and less – I mean fewer -dragons. And most important: Ditch that cackling clown Euron. Good actor in a wasted role and wasted screen time.

      That sounds nice.

      It’s such a shame what they did on screen with Euron. From the most terrifying character in the books (and one of the smartest one, to execute his plan you need to be smart), to what we got on screen. I can understand Pilou to be a bit disappointed and wanting his book counterpart story. Same as Alexander Siddig, DeObia Oparei and Ian McElhinney. I remember Ian being annoyed that they cut him and not given his book counterpart. He was not happy. Alexander Siddiq was less amused that they ditched the book counterpart of his story (which D&D promised him) and he got what he got. They even lied to him before he got the job. they offered him season 5 and 4 episodes in season 6. And then they changed his story line and told the lie that the first plan was to kill him off in season 5, which doesn’t make sense if you give a man already a contract of 2 seasons. It’s a shame Doran could have been that amazing character from the books.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Ten Bears,

      From the quoted passages. I’m left to wonder why Sansa keeping that cloak as if it were a cherished artifact didn’t have some deeper meaning – one which the show didn’t delve into. In fact, I don’t recall Sansa ever mentioning Sandor once after the Battle of the Blackwater in S2. Whatever subtexts there may have been in the books (prompting the “SanSan” speculation?), any implied emotional connection between Sansa and Sandor in the books, e.g., the “unkiss” was omitted from the show.

      I think this is for the same reason we don’t get the same development with the Arya & Jon relationship in the show as we do in the books, in which Jon and Arya are each other’s most cherished sibling and out of all their family, they miss each other the most: because with the show happening on screen, we have no access to these characters’ thoughts as these characters don’t voice these thoughts out loud. And that’s where much of this takes place.

      With Sansa’s thoughts on Sandor, they’re likewise internal, she doesn’t speak them out loud. She has memories of her family but doesn’t speak these aloud either. So, in this translation, I feel we lose some of this depth with our POV characters. Plus, there’s also the matter of Sansa’s faulty and unreliable memory when she recalls certain events (ie. the unkiss) and there’s speculation on why that is.

      There are things shown on the series that happen with Sansa and Sandor (Sandor saving Sansa from the mob, offering to take her with him when he leaves King’s Landing the night of the Battle of Blackwater) but I think it’s more to show Sansa being disabused of her former fairy-tale notions (the one who saves her isn’t a handsome knight. Instead, it’s Sandor Clegane and he is the only one who comes to her rescue) rather than whatever is going on with Sansa’s psyche and her unreliable memory after Sandor leaves. And I suspect Sansa’s thoughts on Sandor and why she keeps the cloak are things she’s doing out of trauma — in an effort to find comfort (the cloak) or to maybe build a narrative she can find meaningful.

      But I’m not sure! I’m no theory-crafter or psychologist!

      As to why Sansa keeps the cloak, this is speculated about but per the books, Sansa doesn’t know why she keeps it:

      The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

        Quote  Reply

    188. Ten Bears,

      Finally got to these, thanks for those links! Now I need to catch up, i missed three whole days! Oh btw, Boney M is that group that did the Christmas reggae song ‘Mary’s Boy Child’.

      BTW who put together Boiled Leather? That was a work of genius (or someone who knew the story very well and could figure out the order of the chapters!)

        Quote  Reply

    189. Ten Bears,

      I suppose one could also argue that the significant time devoted to the show-only Jon & Sansa story line from S6 through S7 came at the expense of a meaningful Jon & Arya story line in S8.

      Had Jon been reunited with Arya in season 6 and Arya was in the picture during the retaking-Winterfell storyline and the writers chose to devote more time to Jon and Sansa’s relationship over Jon & Arya’s, I’d agree. However, Jon and Arya’s reunion happened much later, in season 8, when character relationships and development were very limited and often shortchanged across the board — Jon/Arya, Jon/Sansa, Jon/Ghost, Jon/Sam, Arya/Sansa, Arya/Sansa/Jon/Bran, Jon/Dany, Dany/Missandei, Arya/Beric, Sandor/Sansa, Arya/MIA Nymeria, anything Cersei related as she spent most of season 8 at her balcony drinking wine, etc. (I think Arya and Sandor’s relationship is probably the only one I’m content with and I like the conclusion to Theon’s arc). To me, Season 8 felt like a grocery list of items to check off so they could reach the end while season 6, the last 10-episode season, felt like the last season before the rush started setting in.

      Season 6’s pace was quickened but there was still time for some character work. Even Arya was afforded that relationship she developed with Lady Crane during season 6. Yara and Theon had time to develop their relationship while Jon and Sansa had time to develop theirs in respective joint storylines (Yara and Theon working out how to escape Euron together and take back their home; Sansa and Jon working on trying to take back their home and butting heads over how to do so — and how to run the North). And this seems, unfortunately, like a startling contrast to season 8 :/

      When he brought up “your sister, your pretty sister” and said “I should have f*cked her bloody; at least I’d have one happy memory”, I found it awful – yet sad – at the same time. Kind of tragic to realize he was facing the end of his life without a single happy memory to show for it.

      Yeah. I think the Hound is a very troubled, but tragic character. I found it awful that he was that desperate to get Arya to kill him because, as Arya rightly identified, it’d be a mercy. And I think it really would have been. Sandor’s life seems comprised of pain.

        Quote  Reply

    190. Tron79,

      I agree about the direwolves; their relationships were a huge part of the story, as well as the warging. They should have kept more of that in. I agree about Robb POV, but the reader knows about him via Theon and Catelyn so by the time we get to know him we can sort of picture him.

      Ten Bears,

      Was she born evil – or was she raised to be that way?

      Ive always believed that each person is born with DNA that presents certain tendencies. They have a range, and can be influenced by the environment they are raised in. Certainly Tywin did a lot of damage, but also the way the society constrained her didn’t help

      Ten Bears,

      Although I’m a latecomer to GoT and haven’t read the books yet, I find it fascinating to read contemporaneous accounts from GRRM in 2009 about how “we found our Arya,” and book readers’ positive responses to the photos of then-unknown Maisie Williams posted by G in April, 2010, way before the first episode aired.

      OMG all of us in our online book group want crazy! We hung on every word every post every development. I think that was why it was such an international hit; the book already had fans from all over the world, so eager for it to come to life

        Quote  Reply

    191. Ten Bears,

      I guess Book! Cersei was different?

      YES huge! she was really paranoid and became batshit crazy, and really not very smart. Show Cersei is evil, but is smart, and cunning. Regardless her walk of shame in both book and show versions had me feeling lots of sympathy for her that I didn’t hvae before

        Quote  Reply

    192. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      Wait – its the ghost of the future thats supposed to be a crone. Someone got their ghosts big time messed up! (sorry that happened to you!)

      kevin1989,

      To show that Nurture is more important. But what I meant was and I think GRRM sees that too. Nature is still a small part. Some things you are born with. But can also be nurtured into somebody creative

      I teach kids with special needs, and see this all of the time! Im told that this child has this disability, and I see how having high expectations does a lot of good.Thats why I don’t like labels – knowing that someone is autistic or mentally impaired or deaf does not tell me what the child needs. But it can influence other to react differently to them

        Quote  Reply

    193. Adrianacandle,

      Trying to reply to your 8:46 pm comment about access to characters’ unspoken, inner thoughts in the books vs. the show… but the Lord of Light is sending my reply to the ether. I wish I knew why.

      If he’s so all powerful why doesn’t he tell me what the f*ck he wants?

        Quote  Reply

    194. Ten Bears: Trying to reply to your 8:46 pm comment about access to characters’ unspoken, inner thoughts in the books vs. the show… but the Lord of Light is sending my reply to the ether. I wish I knew why.

      If he’s so all powerful why doesn’t he tell me what the f*ck he wants?

      What brand of candle do you use for your Lord of Light worship candles when posting? If it’s a less expensive brand, he may prefer the ultra expensive, non-discounted Bed, Bath & Beyond ones. This is only a theory but I suspect the Lord of Light will know if we bought something on sale or if something’s from Walmart.

      Now, if they are Bed, Bath, & Beyond or another expensive brand like Yankee Candles and he’s still giving you problems (I expect my own turn with this is coming up), I think you have some tough choices (sacrifices) to make… 😉

      But in all seriousness, I wish we have the forum as an option but I’m still awaiting my activation there 🙁 But I think we’d have fewer problems posting.

        Quote  Reply

    195. Efi,

      What are your thoughts on why Sansa keeps the cloak and why she invents the unkiss? I know you’ve mentioned trauma in relation to this (I think it is from trauma and even though Sansa doesn’t know why she kept the cloak, I wonder if it’s an attempt to find comfort and with the unkiss, she may be attempting to develop a personally meaningful narrative?).

      I found this thread from 2011 which involves speculation over these topics if you want to peruse 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    196. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      I’m going to go top of the line for my Lord of Light pre-Post Comment prayers:

      Jo Malone candles.

      Holy sh**t.

      When two words make Caramel Pumpkin Swirl seem so inadequate.

      Okay, if the Lord of Light does not grant allowance for the posting of your comments with the sacred burning of Jo Malone candles, then our Lord is evil.

        Quote  Reply

    197. Reek,

      Well, Barristan is still alive in the books. I remember that the actor playing him protested to D&D even in writing (!) about how Barristan would have been a great addition to the show.
      We don’t know how much he’ll survive in the books though, now that Tyrion is close. Tyrion is dangerous.

        Quote  Reply

    198. Adrianacandle,

      Martin has said that the mismemory of Sansa is important. This means either that something has happened that she does not remember, or something will happen to her at the Vale or elsewhere that she will forget. When she finds her memory again I believe the things she’s forgotten will be important for the narrative and perhaps influence future events in-universe.
      So Martin in reality with the unkiss sets a narrative precedent, so when it happens again, we’ll know that it’s something she does because of her trauma. It’s amazing how well thought through the stories of ASOIAF are. I wonder how much one can read to do something as complicated, detailed, deep like that. Martin is actually right; mismemory happens to people. There’s bits and pieces of my past that I don’t remember, even though I know they happened.

      As for the cloak, I think that psychologically it represents her chance to be free of her captivity, which she rejected and she doesn’t regret it. I totally agree with you (disabuse –what a great word I didn’t know before, I looked it up at Glosbe, thank you, Adriana!), Sandor showed her how things are in reality and this hurts, but Sandor himself, the way he treated her, encapsulates this cruel reality from which Sansa chooses to distance herself. Even if the world is like that, Sansa maintains her kindness and compassion; by rejecting to leave with Sandor, she doesn’t just reject him, she rejects an entire way of living that preconditions cruelty and even violence and the absense of any compassion for surviving (which Arya experienced with him because she had no choice). So the cloak is a symbol of the “knightly” way of living that is anything but knightly and is a reminder of that reality.
      For Sansa this entire event was very personal: he had come to her room, pushed her on the bed, held a knife to her throat and forced her to do something (sing) which she didn’t want (and she’s only 12). And later, when he leaves, she takes his cloak, covers herself up with it, and curls on the floor, not on the bed (I think I remember it correctly). At this point, even the bed means bad things for Sansa.

      I hope it’s not a foreshadow of a future rape, but at this point I doubt how she can avoid it at the Eyrie, either by LF or by Harry. In this case the entire incident with Sandor may foreshadow that after this rape she will take refuge at Castle Black (from Snow -see below- to Black, hm?) where Jon is a (black) guard, just like Sandor was a gold (white) guard. There’s irony and literary geniousness here. And of course it’s all speculation of the wildest kind. (lol, I’m enoying this)

      And yes, well, of course you know what the Jonsa fam says about the cloak and Sansa covering herself with it. Could this be a Targaryen symbolism as the cloak is white, which alludes to Snow, and is burned (fire) and stained with blood? I don’t know. Martin planted enough foreshadow very early in his books, like Jon calling his wolf Ghost which alludes to his murder at the end of the fifth (!) book, but sometimes the Jonsa fam seems to stretch things as much as they can be stretched, even if in-universe the cloaking symbolizes marriage and protection.
      For me, some things are highly suspicious and betray Martin’s intentions; Sansa for example builds WF from snow at the Eyrie, so I have no doubt that Sansa and Jon will retake WF together; but I have no idea as to what the castle named Snow at the Eyrie means for example. It commands the entire passing from Stone to the Eyrie, and it is higher than Stone, leading to Sky castle. So Jon is a Snow and Sansa becomes Alayne Stone. And when Catelyn passes by that place and meets that girl who is a Baratheon bastard (if my memory doesn’t deceive me once again, Mya Stone?) she remembers that she has herself a bastard being raised at her house, and this entire description of Snow castle is in Catelyn’s chapter.
      I mean… Martin is messing with our heads. I choose not to think of such crap anymore, anyway WoW shall be published soon, I hope, so some of all this blur shall be answered.

        Quote  Reply

    199. Efi,

      Thanks for your thoughts, Efi!! 🙂

      I do agree that misremembering is a way some respond and cope with trauma, especially under a deep amount of stress and Sansa, at 12, is in a living nightmare with her situation — seeing her father suddenly executed right in front of her, isolated from her family, held hostage, beaten, learning about the brutal slaughter of her mother and brother, etc. etc.

      I liked these speculations too, from that westeros.org thread:

      (littlebird_) So good to find another place to discuss this because I was just coming to this conclusion, what we never figured out was why is the mismemory so important and its exactly what you said there. Sansa is very internal so its hard to see how she’s changing with her actions but in her subconscious she is changing and her changing descriptions of the kiss and the cloak are there to guide us with respect to that change.

      Since she was never about physical power we can not see her become a warrior by training, it was about losing ideals and replacing them with new convictions and the story of the kiss and cloak actually represent how her ideals about romance and knights have changed and it will be important because once she is able to return to being Sansa Stark she will return with these new convictions that have been developing subconsciously since ASoS.

      (brashcandy) The old Sansa Stark was an unkissed maiden who believed in knightly virtue. The new Sansa Stark has experienced a kiss and is now in possession of a bloody cloak that proves much of the lies behind knighthood and honor. She is not rebuking Sandor, but rather, by wrapping the cloak around her, aligns herself with this view. (We had also discussed how she also uses Barristen Selmy’s cloak to kneel upon)

      So the mismemory is the key which points to process of transformation/rebellion taking place in Sansa. If, as GRRM asserts, this is something of a habit with her, it is one which allows her to revamp her thinking and behaviour. The irony is that although she thinks that Sandor took a kiss and left a bloody cloak, she is now in possession of something more important: a more enlightened, mature perspective on life. A white cloak could not protect her, but a bloody one can. Real kisses lack meaning or value, but misremembered ones do.

      Re: Sandor/Sansa/LF/Harry: Maybe it’s because I tend to hate how rape is used in many stories (Outlander) and have a personal aversion, but I don’t personally see this Sansa-Sandor interaction as foreshadowing a rape because it’s not really sexual. It’s terrifying! But it’s not sexual in my view. However, I have no idea what’s going to happen. However, I share your hope that is not the case.

        Quote  Reply

    200. Efi,

      With Ghost, that is a way to read it, with the word ‘Ghost’ perhaps foretelling Jon’s death. I more read Ghost as representing Jon’s “otherness” in the Stark family — while Jon’s a part of the family, he’s a little apart too. Ghost is different from his siblings and all the direwolves seem to represent their Stark kids in a way. Ghost is found a little ways off from the other, he’s mute, and Bran notices that of all the pups, Ghost is the only one who has opened his eyes. Meanwhile, Jon is differentiated from the rest due to his illegitimacy and he is perceptive (although, he seems to lose this a bit in the fifth book because he doesn’t anticipate what his decisions will lead to and is completely blindsided by assassination).

      Most importantly, I think Ghost represents Jon’s connection to the Old Gods — the bone white and red eyes of the weirwood, which is part of the magic Jon seems to be deeply but unknowingly connected to (perhaps as much as Bran). There’s this quote from Melisandre which she says to Jon after she makes an unexpected connection with Ghost:

      “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

      And of the Stark kids. Jon is the most faithful to the Old Gods as the trueborn Starks follow both Catelyn’s faith (the Seven) and Ned’s fate (Old Gods) while Jon doesn’t have Catelyn’s influence and follows only Ned’s.

      Re: white cloak. There was a discussion on Targaryen colours earlier this year. I think white is sometimes seen as representing Targaryens because Dany and Viserys are platinum blonde in the show to represent the Targaryen silver hair, which is often portrayed more white than grey in artwork. However, the house colours themselves are black and red while white isn’t officially representative of House Targaryen so I’m not sure how much white would figure in, especially if Jon is a trueborn Targaryen — and I think he might be. I think Rhaegar took a second wife rather than an annulment. I mean, I don’t imagine the Martells would love that either, especially if Rhaegar abandons Elia and their two kids to marry and shack up with Lyanna.

      But, well, you’ve already read my objections to the idea of Jonsa… 😉

      Still, speculation is always fun and I think that’s one of the few advantages of still having to wait for the books.

        Quote  Reply

    201. Efi,

      Re: Sansa and Jon retaking Winterfell in the next book: while I loved their reunion in the show, I’m not so certain Sansa and Jon will reunite in the next book to take Winterfell together. I think Sansa may do so with the Vale forces on her own. I definitely think Winterfell is Sansa’s destiny but I don’t know what’s going to happen with Jon next. Sansa’s story went kind of off the tracks when her show storyline was merged with Jeyne Poole’s book story. If, in the books, Sansa is raped by LF or Harry the Heir, would she be able to flee to Castle Black? Would she be able to find help? It’s a long, long way from the Vale to Castle Black and the Vale is both hard to access and hard to leave.

      It’s not out of the realm of possibility! But I’m not confident she and Jon will meet up in the next book or they’ll take Winterfell together. I do think Sansa and Jon will eventually meet again at Winterfell.

      GRRM has so many threads going on without having developed a road map for himself (the architect vs. gardener characterization he talks about) that I don’t know if he even knows how he’ll bring it all together. And I think that’s why he’s stuck.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Efi: ould this be a Targaryen symbolism as the cloak is white, which alludes to Snow, and is burned (fire) and stained with blood? I don’t know. Martin planted enough foreshadow very early in his books, like Jon calling his wolf Ghost which alludes to his murder at the end of the fifth (!) book, but sometimes the Jonsa fam seems to stretch things as much as they can be stretched, even if in-universe the cloaking symbolizes marriage and protection.

      Oh, I see! You’re not saying white is representative of Targaryens, but of Snow. I personally think this is a bit of a stretch, I don’t think we’re going to see a marriage between Jon and Sansa, but I only know as much as anyone else and all we can do is speculate! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    203. Efi: And when Catelyn passes by that place and meets that girl who is a Baratheon bastard (if my memory doesn’t deceive me once again, Mya Stone?)

      Yes, Mya Stone! I find that connection interesting because Mya is Robert Baratheon’s first child and first bastard — the very child Lyanna referenced here, putting her off of Robert, and Ned recalled holding Mya as a baby:

      “Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

      And I found a lot of interest in Catelyn’s reaction to Mya, there’s so much in it:

      [Mya] sounded so cocky that Catelyn had to smile. “Do you have a name, child?”

      “Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady,” the girl said.

      It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard’s name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply.

        Quote  Reply

    204. Adrianacandle,

      I think they’ll reunite in the books and really take WF together. I don’t know how, but I believe that at least a reason why seasons 5 and 6 were so good (for me at least, sorry Kevin!) is because they still stepped on the book and the concrete story of what happens after Jon’s murder, which most probably Martin had figured out by that time. If my conviction that he had planned from the very beginning the outline of the complete story until the end is true, then the “girl in grey” is really Sansa. The first girl has already arrived (Alys), the second is on the way (Jeyne) and the third is about to depart for Castle Black. I expect this because of basic fairytale structure, where everything happens in threes.

      Sansa is the personification of the Damsel in distress that TB mentioned earlier. Subverting the trope, however, makes necessary that she saves herself, and she waits for no other to do that. So, Sandor, LF, even Brienne are out of the question. Sansa has to come down from the tower herself. Perhaps a traumatic event will help her finally reach that point where she tries to? As I said, I hope not, but the little devil in me thinks that it’s not by chance that D&D adapted Jeyne’s story to fit Sansa’s arc (I don’t think I’ve said this before, but I’ve been thinking about it since I read her released WoW chapter, and it’s a long time). If something like that is going to happen in Sansa’s arc in the books, it’ll be at the Vale. I’d really hope it would be something close to it, rather than an actual rape, but she has already been close to it (i.e. Sandor, Tyrion), so repetition would be pointless, and all the men around her look at her like she’s a fruit ripe for the taking –in this case it would be Harry and LF. In addition, her bastard status under which she is disguised removes the respect of people towards her. If she has escaped rape for so long it’s because she was a lady of the Starks, daughter of Ned Stark; now she’s only LF’s bastard daughter.
      So, speculation:
      Sansa has taken LF’s advice and treats Harry like a diva -making advances but retreating when he’s more open to her, which leaves him wanting and wondering. Harry is a dangerous person as regards women; he has a bastard already, and another one on the way, and his rich family covers up his mistakes. So he is not reliable when it comes to women and mothers would do well to keep their daughters away from him, lol. Harry is expected to either do something foolish at the tourney, which will cost either his life or his place in Robin’s guard. If he survives, he’ll turn against her and accuse her for what will happen with him, and what he does after that will be unpredictable. If he doesn’t survive, then LF’s plans will fall apart altogether, and he’ll be the one outraged with Sansa and thereby also become unpredictable with her.
      Or, perhaps, if she’s lucky, she’ll react to all this mockery, LF’s lies and Harry’s dishonesty and escapes her abusers once and for all, before anything irreparable happens to her.
      Alternatively, I’d like her to kill LF already at the Vale (because if he’s alive in this scenario it would be boring), reveal herself as Sansa Stark, take their army and march North. But this is more something that Daenerys would do, not Sansa. Also, it’s not very interesting narratively.
      Unfortunately, Martin has said that it gets darker and worse for everybody before their luck turns, and I don’t think Sansa has reached her point zero yet, actually in this first chapter of WoW she’s in a good place. Jon has reached that point though, so we’ll expect him to start rising in WoW.

      As for Ghost, I truly think it’s foreshadow. Ghosts are traditionally white, transparent beings in popular imagination. Foreshadow in this case is a Doylist explanation. But like the cloak everything in Martin’s universe can have multiple meanings and symbolisms. In-universe it appears to symbolise Jon’s connection to the old gods (this is Watsonian). Melisandre urges Jon to embrace this strength in him, but it’s not a good thing, because she means more than the old gods, she means magic. I’m really curious to see how/what will Jon be once he returns from the dead. More beastly, maybe? Having lived inside Ghost for who knows how long? The first chapter of ADWD (Sixskins) is already a foreshadow with respect to this.

      As for white as a Targ color. No, it’s not. Clapton has said that she used white for Dany to show her distancing from the reality around her. She said this about Meereen, where Dany felt uncomfortable and had trouble being accepted as a ruler.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Adrianacandle,

      I like the ones that talk about Little Finger with it, the cloak part. Meaning that book Sansa is a learning a lot and probably out-smart LF in the end. And I wonder when LF founds out he will reveal something about his motives. I don’t believe the “I want the throne” is the motive. He has nothing to gain from that. But topple the high class and implement a capitalism-like institute will.

      Reek:
      kevin1989,

      Barristan was not CUT though. He died early yes. But he was in the show for four seasons

      His storyline was cut. Now he was just the kingsguard of Dany, compare that to his book storyline where he had an amazing part to play. Finding out who the harpy is once Dany has left. Fighting and being the leader in the battle of Fire. It’s a very interesting storyline that Ian was exciting for. How could he not? They cut it, so Tyrion could be faster in Meereen, to make Tyrion useful. If they didn’t cut that storyline, Barristan would be in till least the end of season 6. So yes, he was cut. Like Doran was cut, and Areo was cut. And I can understand that those actors were not pleased with those decisions.

        Quote  Reply

    206. Efi,

      To start with why I think Tyrion is dangerous and how he will be dangerous I start by a sign of that dangerous in Dance.

      Aegon. Tyrion gave Aegon a plan. Going west. It all sounded as a good plan right then, and Aegon took it. Then we saw a glimpse in Tyrion’s evilness. His chapter after Aegon moved to Westeros. “He took the bait”. What? the bait? Going west was a bait by Tyrion. But why? Simple, if Aegon would have met Dany with his Golden Company, what use would Tyrion be, he would be useless and probably be imprisoned. Luckily for Aegon it helped a lot, probably not in the end when Dany comes to Westeros.

      Then at the end of Dance Tyrion set his second plan in motion.

      He will be the savior who turn the second sons back again to Dany’s cause. Which put him in good graces with Dany. But then his second part of that plan will set in motion. Ditching Baristan. Baristan is a danger for him. I think Tyrion will blame Baristan for the destruction that her dragons caused in Meereen. And Dany gives him the fire treatment.

        Quote  Reply

    207. Efi,

      If my conviction that he had planned from the very beginning the outline of the complete story until the end is true, then the “girl in grey” is really Sansa. The first girl has already arrived (Alys), the second is on the way (Jeyne) and the third is about to depart for Castle Black. I expect this because of basic fairytale structure, where everything happens in threes.

      That would be a lot of girls in grey on horses 🙂 But the Vale to Castle Black still seems way too far a distance for Sansa on horse — and by herself. By the time Alys arrived, she was in bad shape and that was from within the North. Not to mention how dangerous it would be for Sansa to travel that distance alone. While she has a bastard’s name as Alayne Stone, this is still indicative of nobility as only noble-born bastards have names — plus, she’s an overtly beautiful girl, not trained in survival skills or self-defense. Even Arya needs help to suvive Westeros and Arya has more skill in this area.

      Sansa is the personification of the Damsel in distress that TB mentioned earlier. Subverting the trope, however, makes necessary that she saves herself, and she waits for no other to do that. So, Sandor, LF, even Brienne are out of the question. Sansa has to come down from the tower herself.

      I think the subversion has already started when the wool was being torn from Sansa’s eyes and she starts realizing the reality of things vs. fairy tale notions. And I think an exploration here is happening with Sansa having to learn other kinds of skills to save and safeguard herself. Physically, Sansa can’t rescue herself, she’s always needed help there — in both the books and show. But she can sharpen her mind, listen and learn, and play to the advantage of gathering information.

      But I am hoping Sansa’s story goes in another way that doesn’t involve rape or assault. She’s already been through the ringer and, well, I really hate rape as a plot device :/

      I don’t know how it’s going to go down but I’d like to see a Sansa in transition rather than a Sansa who is in the company of another jerk heir and must figure a way to escape to seek another’s protection. While the development between Jon and Sansa was lovely, I wasn’t a fan of the story which led up to it. I’d like to see her story go a different way, for her to gain a sense of agency in her current situation but in a realistic way that uses her strengths. I really don’t think the show did a great job of playing to those as Sansa (among other characters) made some mystifying decisions.

      Oh, I think Sansa would definitely try to figure out how to take back her home once she figured out how — she was determined to do so in the show when she came to Castle Black. What would make Jon and Sansa taking back their home together different from Sansa taking it back herself with the Vale’s support?

      As for Daenerys, she and Sansa have a few similarities. They both start out gentle but must adapt to their changing situations, they both suffer abuse, they’re both used as pawns, they’re both forcibly married, and they both want to go home. All Sansa seems to want now is her family and Dany laments the loss of hers. They have these idealizations of their childhood: for Sansa, she builds a snow Winterfell. For Dany, she’s looking for that house with the red door.

      As for Jon, I have no idea how he’ll return but it’s my personal hope he resembles the character we know. There aren’t that many decent people to root for in this series who have genuine compassion and a drive to help others, which makes Jon a rarity alongside a handful of other character. I saw somebody once say this about the subject on the westeros.org forums, “I need a few lighthouses in this sea of sh!t,” and Jon’s been one of them so far. It would suck to lose that half-way through his story.

      With Melisandre’s quote, I interpreted that as neither a good or bad power, but a power that just is, something that’s in Jon’s blood. I think it speaks to Jon’s mystical destiny rather than something necessarily bad. Melisandre is sensing a power in Jon and yes, I think it is more than the Old Gods, I think she senses whatever magic the Targaryen line possesses. Jon does have quite a bit of magic in him, he’s already a powerful warg and resists that. He’s the child of two magical bloodlines — the Starks and the Targaryens., fire and ice, and that may play a part in Jon’s resurrection but moreso, in defending the realm against the oncoming darkness several characters are preparing for.

        Quote  Reply

    208. Adrianacandle,

      I think Sansa will not move to Winterfell in the books until the end. And I think it’s combined with Aegon and Dany. I think what will happen is that maybe Aegon and Dany got the romance (not Jon but Aegon), and they move to help Jon north fighting the others. I think the castle will be taken then, by Sansa and LF or Euron. And that will be the fire part. But that is in line with my other though that Aegon is the reason why Dany burn KL. But I think Sansa story will not revolve the north at least not in winds.

      Also I tink that Winterfell will not be re-taken by a battle. I highly convinced that Stannis as a brilliant plan together with Manderly, to defeat the Bolton’s from within. It’s also important for Mel that Stannis is alive once she performed her burning ritual in the north that resurrect Jon. She needs to believe that it works, that means that Jon’s death will probably not know by others in the books. Not until Mel and Stannis are reunited. Why I think this is important is that I believe that once Mel understands Jon is Azor Ahai, she will burn Stannis alive because of his kings blood. That’s a ending that Stannis deserve storywise, not killed by the Frey’s. (Not even Ramsay will attack Stannis camp).
      Jon will go south with Mel to retake his home, but it’s already in Stannis hands. But once Stannis is burned by Mel, I think Jon is crowned king in the north.

      As for Sansa she will be concerned south, with Cersei, Aegon etc. She will probably go north once the other’s defeated Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    209. kevin1989: I like the ones that talk about Little Finger with it, the cloak part. Meaning that book Sansa is a learning a lot and probably out-smart LF in the end. And I wonder when LF founds out he will reveal something about his motives. I don’t believe the “I want the throne” is the motive. He has nothing to gain from that. But topple the high class and implement a capitalism-like institute will.

      Yes, I agree! Sort of like how Dany did with Khal Drogo, I hope Sansa is able to figure out a way to take her situation by horns and get some control, get some power over the people who have been controlling her. Not through sex or anything, but in beginning to learn LF’s moves, anticipate his next action, and plan her own next action accordingly.

      I’d like to know what LF’s ultimate end-game is too XD;

        Quote  Reply

    210. Efi,

      I like your take, still I don’t think it will go that way, but I will like if it does.

      I also found other theories I like which I like very much. And the first I think is true.
      1. Tywin has been poisoned by Shae on the orders of Oberyn. That’s why Shae was with Tywin, and that’s why Tywin was on the shit-pot the whole day. There’s a poison the Martell’s use that dissolves your bowels.
      2. Less likely but if true I like it a lot. Oberyn had a son, who is working for Dany now. Daario.
      3. What did you think about who betrayed Arianne and who is septa Lemore. Another theory about Septa Lemore is

      She is Elia Martel.

        Quote  Reply

    211. kevin1989,

      Why I think this is important is that I believe that once Mel understands Jon is Azor Ahai, she will burn Stannis alive because of his kings blood. That’s a ending that Stannis deserve storywise, not killed by the Frey’s. (Not even Ramsay will attack Stannis camp).
      Jon will go south with Mel to retake his home, but it’s already in Stannis hands. But once Stannis is burned by Mel, I think Jon is crowned king in the north.

      I’m not quite clear on your timeline: why would Melisandre would burn Stannis?

      Personally, I don’t think Jon is becoming King in the North, nor did Linda Antonsson when she reviewed 6×10 but what would the motivation be for Jon to take Winterfell?

      As for Jon/Dany/fAegon, I’m pretty convinced the romance will happen between Jon and Dany. fAegon is claiming to be a trueborn Targaryen with a greater claim to the throne Dany wants, I don’t think Dany’s going to love that 😉 And there’s a lot connecting Jon and Dany in the books, as well as that Alan Taylor quote regarding GRRM talking about the significance of Jon and Dany.

      “[Martin] just sort of mentioned in passing, ‘Oh well it’s all about Dany and Jon Snow,'” Taylor said. “And at the time I thought, ‘Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?'”

      “But [Martin] knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition,” Taylor said. “We know that it’s circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, ‘fire and ice.'”

      When asked if Martin had been specific about Daenerys and Jon being romantically involved, Taylor didn’t elaborate.

      “I can’t say much more about what [Martin] said about where we’re going with Dany and Jon because that leaps ahead into the next season,” Taylor said. “But to me the revelation was that, at the time, we had a hundred characters and yet he knew it’s about these two.”

      Like, it’s not a guarantee but I think it’s heading this way.

        Quote  Reply

    212. kevin1989: As for Sansa she will be concerned south, with Cersei, Aegon etc. She will probably go north once the other’s defeated Winterfell.

      Perhaps. I still feel she’ll get to Winterfell sooner. I wonder how she’d view fAegon if she meets him?

        Quote  Reply

    213. kevin1989,

      lol, I was actually thinking of you and this explanation when I was writing that!
      I think you’re probably right. Or:

      Barristan will execute Hizdar, which will result in probably even worse rioting in Meereen, and when Dany returns she’ll find total chaos and Tyrion trying to put some order in it; and then she’ll have Barristan executed because he got the answer to the “who poisoned the locusts” question wrong and he’ll be responsible for the chaos. In any case, Tyrion’s doing from beginning to end; chaos in both sides of the Narrow Sea.

        Quote  Reply

    214. kevin1989,

      Her name was Pebbles. She was 16 and a rescue cat – I adopted her (from Cats Protection League – a British cat charity) on 13th October 2011 so had her just under 8 years. She was tortoiseshell and white – I think in the States people say calico.

      Ten Bears,

      I have heard the expression Ten Bears but don’t know the poem – you can link it if you like.

        Quote  Reply

    215. Adrianacandle: Holy sh**t.

      When two words make Caramel Pumpkin Swirl seem so inadequate.

      Okay, if the Lord of Light does not grant allowance for the posting of your comments with the sacred burning of Jo Malone candles, then our Lord is evil.

      Yup. I figure the Lord of Light demands great sacrifice to grant great requests. Burning a Jo Malone candle is the equivalent of burning an heir with king’s blood at the stake – except after the candle burns, it leaves a long lasting, pleasant aroma.

      Speaking of the Lord of Light: It was vexing (for me) that the show ended without ever elucidating His true nature. I don’t mean the common sense question posed by Sandor (”If your Lord is so all-powerful why doesn’t he just tell you what the f*ck he wants?”) I get it that the Lord likes to communicate via images in flames rather than engage in tedious conversations with puny humans.

      As presented on the show. there was a dichotomy between what I’ll call the BericLordofLight and the MelLordofLight.

      The Beric version was benevolent, life affirming, and life-giving (e.g., bringing dead people back to life). His disciples didn’t burn people. He provided accurate, static-free surveillance video
      to assist his followers – even an agnostic like Sandor Clegane. Through his adherents, He intervened to protect the living against the dead. (Beric: The Lord of Light “has brought us together all the same. This is His moment.” S8e2) And of course, on the show, He brought Beric back to life six times for the purpose of giving his life to protect ASNAWPTWP.

      The Mel version was malevolent, deceptive, and unreliable. He tricked or deluded his priestesses into becoming rabid, pyromaniacal loonies bent on roasting people alive – whether to “purify the souls” of “non-believers” or as sacrifices “demanded” by their Lord. This version of the Lord of Light is best described by Davos when he confronted Melisandre for burning Shireen (in S6e10):

      Davos: “You burned a little girl alive!”
      Mel: “I only do what my Lord commands.”
      Davos: “If he commands you to burn children, your Lord is evil!
      Mel: “We are standing here because of him. Jon Snow is alive because the Lord willed it.”
      Davos: “I loved that girl like she was my own. She was good. She was kind. And you killed her!”
      Mel: “So did her father. So did her mother. Her own blood knew it was the only way.”
      Davos: “The only way for what? They all died anyway. You told everyone Stannis was the one. You had him believing it, all of them fooled. And you lied.”
      Mel: “I didn’t lie. I was wrong.”
      Davos: “Aye, you were wrong. How many died because you were wrong?”

      ____
      So, was the Lord of Light some Janus-faced deity? A schizophrenic? Or a prankster who got his jollies watching the silly humans barbecue each other, only to come to their rescue when humankind was about to be obliterated?

      F*ck if I know. Did the books explain any of this?

        Quote  Reply

    216. Dame of Mercia,

      I’ll post a link to the “Rainbow Bridge” poem, or cut and paste the text if I have it. I think it starts with: “Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.” It was printed on a condolence card from my veterinarian’s office.

        Quote  Reply

    217. Ten Bears: Yup. I figure the Lord of Light demands great sacrifice to grant great requests. Burning a Jo Malone candle is the equivalent of burning an heir with king’s blood at the stake – except after the candle burns, it leaves a long lasting, pleasant aroma.

      Perhaps, through the Sephora gift card bestowed on me by my most irritating of sisters, will I find a more righteous salvation for my posts from the ether in the form of Jo Malone candles, the most luxury and sacred of burning vessels. And I can stop eyeing the damn cat…

      I would welcome this pleasant scent… Somebody in my building has been enjoying a fish phase.

      So, was the Lord of Light some Janus-faced deity? A schizophrenic? Or a prankster who got his jollies watching the silly humans barbecue each other, only to come to their rescue when humankind was about to be obliterated?

      F*ck if I know. Did the books explain any of this?

      LOL

      There is quite a bit on R’hllor here but religion seems more significant in the books, as does its associated magic (particularly the Old Gods and the Lord of Light). Still mysterious but I get the impression it’s up to the interpreter. Melisandre is interpreting genuine power but there’s a chance she might be coming to the wrong conclusions. Meanwhile, Beric is obviously experiencing real power but he’s interpreting it differently from Melisandre.

        Quote  Reply

    218. Efi,

      So you predict that in the books as well as the show, the once brilliant Tyrion Lannister

      will turn out to be a catastrophic failure from sea to shining sea

      ?

        Quote  Reply

    219. Dame of Mercia,

      I’m so sorry for your loss. It’s so hard because our pets make such a big impact, sometimes they are our closest companions, but we only have them for a fraction of our lives. It’s never, never enough time with them. The Rainbow Bridge poem Ten Bears referenced is beautiful, maybe you know it? I’m so sorry.

      I have a ragdoll cat and she’s been with me ever since I moved to Toronto for school, she’s often been my only companion when I had to move around so much. I know it’s going to come but it feels unimaginable. I’m so sorry. I wish I could say something more meaningful.

        Quote  Reply

    220. Dame of Mercia,

      So sorry for your loss. I have two cats too. And sometimes they really work on my nerves, but what noone understands is that despite my complaining I love them more than anything in the world. All my free-time is for them and I even adapt my vacations for them.

        Quote  Reply

    221. Adrianacandle,

      ”…There is quite a bit on R’hllor here but religion seems more significant in the books, as does its associated magic (particularly the Old Gods and the Lord of Light). Still mysterious but I get the impression it’s up to the interpreter. Melisandre is interpreting genuine power but there’s a chance she might be coming to the wrong conclusions. Meanwhile, Beric is obviously experiencing real power but he’s interpreting it differently from Melisandre.”
      ————
      For what it’s worth, during a dinner party some time ago I got into a lively discussion with a GoT fan who happened to be a biblical scholar. I questioned whether the post-Shireen thaw was the proximate result of the human sacrifice, or a mere coincidence, i.e., a naturally occurring weather phenomenon attributed to divine intervention.

      Our conversation turned to the biblical account of Moses parting the Red Sea to let the Israelites cross over on the dry seabed, and once they were safely across, the sea rushed back in and swamped the pursuing Eqyptians’ chariots. I suggested the biblical story described an actual event, with a little embellishment to emphasize the direct role of the Lord in rescuing the pursued people and drowning their pursuers.

      Long story short, after much debate I kind of agreed (compromised) that the Lord provided high tide/low tide nautical charts to Moses, who then timed the crossing during low tide when the water was ankle deep. Within minutes after that, the tide shifted and the seas started rushing back in. Even if the water level increased only a couple of feet, between the strong currents and the weight of the horses and heavy chariots, the pursuers toppled over or found themselves mired in the muck, unable to retreat.

      Back to Davos vs. Mel: As Davos observed, despite the sacrifice of Shireen at the supposed command of the Lord of Light, “they all died anyway.” Perhaps the overnight temperature increase of a few degrees was a coincidence, and not the work of the Lord of Light. Firebug Mel somehow got it in her head to torch Shireen – but maybe she was having auditory hallucinations, and Stannis, in his desperation, went along with her cockamamie princess burning solution. If so, the Lord of Light had nothing to do with it.

      (To be continued…maybe)

        Quote  Reply

    222. Dame of Mercia,

      Oh I am so sorry to hear that!!! Dealing with their loss is rough, and takes a while to heal. Have had cats all my life, all of them have made a place in our hearts and stayed. I have fond memories, all had such distinct personalities. We have three now; little ones after losing three elder ones within two years . Its rough, no matter what the age 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    223. Adrianacandle,

      One of my fave rags to riches stories, tho loved it when she stuck with her personality, singing ‘just you wait Henry Higgins!’ Actually all the songs were glorious, even with Rex talking/singing ‘Ive grown accustomed to your face’ (I have the broadway soundtrack with Julie Andrews. Sad that she wasn’t in the movie)

      speaking of rags to riches, just watched the video of Maisie in Paris – oh my gawd she is so adorable, and all grown up! Loved it when she says ‘ on the red carpet Im just still a shy little girl, wanting to go home’. Hoping and praying that she always keeps a little bit of that. I think its what grounds her, makes her seem genuine and mature, with just a touch of playfulness

        Quote  Reply

    224. Adrianacandle,

      I’m 90% sure that in the books, Sansa will come north with the KotV just in time to help Jon take back WF.*

      I believe that the show, by “prematurely” bringing Sansa to the North (i.e., shoehorning Sansa into the book! Jeyne Poole & Ramsay story line) caused a host of unanticipated problems (e.g. the Butterfly Effect). After that plot and character diversion, merging back into GRRM’s intended chronology wasn’t as easy as it may have looked on paper.

      I suspect that much of the strained logic and inexplicable character behavior on the show were byproducts of screwing around with the books’ timeline and the characters’ geographical placement.

      For example, Sansa concealing the KotV from Jon could never be adequately explained because there was no rational justification for it. In the forthcoming books, I’ll bet Jon won’t know about the possibility of reinforcements from the Vale because Sansa will remain in the Vale until she gets word of an impending offensive by the Boltons. She won’t have to conceal anything from Jon because she won’t be in his orbit until the much later as compared to the show.

      Also, Sansa (and Sophie) won’t be victimized by the ridiculous LF Bolton marriage plan. (Marrying into the family that slaughtered your family? Yeah, sure…) Sansa’s character development won’t regress by becoming a crash test dummy in WF. She won’t spend months brutalized by a psycho, or finally manage to light a candle in a tower to alert a rescuer who just happened to abandon her vigil the moment before. She likely won’t be an escapee seeking refuge at Castle Black.

      Sansa will have her moment of triumph in the books, but it won’t come at the expense of Jon’s intelligence or her own candor.

      * Caveat: What do I know? I have not read the books yet. All I know about them is what I’ve learned second-hand from commenters here. 🙄

        Quote  Reply

    225. Thanks to everyone who has expressed concern about the recent death of my cat. She was terribly weak – she went downhill very suddenly but it’s always kind when people express concern, especially on a forum like this where we only meet ‘virtually’.

        Quote  Reply

    226. Ten Bears,

      I think he will be quite successful in his current plans. That is the destruction of his family and Westeros, he wont be wringing his hands over it. I think he will change his mind somewhere along the way (perhaps when Dany goes apeshit) and ‘redeem’ himself, before undertaking clean up duty.

        Quote  Reply

    227. Adrianacandle,

      I want to know to, but I cling to the capitalism side. If you look at Varys and LF. Varys is all about extreme left wing, while LF is extreme rightwing. Anarchy. Order vs Chaos. Even Varys wants to control the way the king things. LF was always against the way lord-ship works. That it went down from father to son. His methods are also very capitalistic, working yourself from not much to the top. And I think it’s also not out of character if he wants a new system, where the richest has the most statue, he is the richest man in Westeros but still his statue is overshadowed by every lord who has less in the pocket.

      And agree, I hope Sansa will out-smart LF. And I wonder if LF comes clean after she did that. What his true motive is, which maybe will shock people, and maybe thinking, he is partly right.

        Quote  Reply

    228. Ten Bears,

      The Moses discussion reminds me of that A&E program I vaguely, vaguely remember — ‘Mysteries of the Bible’ — did you ever see it? That is a fascinated debate — the parting of the Red Sea, how Moses would know when to bring the Israelites across before it filled back in to drown the pursuing Egyptians.

      And the Israelites get a bit too party-hard and end up having to wander the desert for 40-years so the offending party generation dies off!

      Anyway, I wonder the same of Melisandre. Though, she does seem to be having genuine visions and appears to possess a genuine connection to the Lord of Light but misinterprets. She has a vision of grey girl on a dying horse in the books fleeing for Castle Black and believes it’s Arya. However, when the girl arrives, it’s not actually Arya but a girl who looks very much like her and is a few years older — Alys Karstark.

      In the books, Alys and Arya possess many of the same features, she’s not a redhead as in the show and in ADWD, she’s about a year younger than Jon. Alys and Jon remember each other from when Alys came to Winterfell and her father expected her to charm Robb. She had danced with both Robb and Jon and remembers Robb as charming while Jon was sullen 😉 I liked the relationship between Alys and Jon, it was comfortable and amicable.

      I’ve also seen theories where, while the burning of Shireen didn’t actually help Stannis and his army, it gave Melisandre the power needed to resurrect Jon. Maybe there is something to king’s blood.?

      Re: Sansa and the KotV in the show, I agree with your description of the logic/geographic problems. Despite the lengthy debates over why Sansa concealed the KoTV in which we go over Sansa’s motives for this choice, it seems done only to bring about that dramatic, surprising 11th hour save. Neither the writers or the character herself explain why she did what she did.

      I think it would make more sense if, as you said, Sansa comes riding to Winterfell with the KotV before she and Jon reunite, providing a reason for Jon not knowing about Sansa and the KotV. But I’m not sure what Jon will be up to post-resurrection or what the situation at the Wall will look like. It feels, at the point Jon is assassinated, all hell is about the break loose.

        Quote  Reply

    229. ash,

      Yes, tears!

      Ooh, I love My Fair Lady (it is a shame about Julie Andrews but I do love Audrey Hepburn. I think Julie Andrews did get a bit of a win when she won for Mary Poppins)! I LOVE Eliza’s personality (‘Just You Wait ‘Enry ‘Iggins, Just You Wait!’ starring Eliza’s revenge fantasies, utterly failing the h-test). And Eliza’s father:

      Doolittle: I’ll tell you, Governor, if you’ll only let me get a word in. I’m *willing* to tell you! I’m *wanting* to tell you! I’m *waiting* to tell you!

      Professor Higgins: Pickering, this chap has a certain natural gift of rhetoric. Observe the rhythm of his native woodnotes wild: “I’m willing to tell you. I’m wanting to tell you. I’m waiting to tell you.” Sentimental rhetoric! That’s the Welsh strain in him.

      Or this exchange between Professor Higgins and Eliza:

      Professor Higgins: Now, try it again.
      Eliza: The rine in spine sties minely in the pline.
      Professor Higgins: The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.
      Eliza: Didn’t I sy that?
      Professor Higgins: No, Eliza, you didn’t “sy” that, you didn’t even “say” that. Now, every night before you get into bed, where you used to say your prayers, I want you to say, “The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain,” fifty times. You’ll learn to get much further with the Lord if you learn not to offend His ears.

      And My Fair Lady earworms have all been successfully activated 😉

      speaking of rags to riches, just watched the video of Maisie in Paris – oh my gawd she is so adorable, and all grown up! Loved it when she says ‘ on the red carpet Im just still a shy little girl, wanting to go home’. Hoping and praying that she always keeps a little bit of that. I think its what grounds her, makes her seem genuine and mature, with just a touch of playfulness

      Yes!

        Quote  Reply

    230. Adrianacandle,

      That I don’t know, I just think that will happen. (Or Stannis kills Melisandre when he founds out she lied about Mance and the death of his daughter and he will die for real in the war against the others and find out that he is not the Prince that was Promised.)

      But the reasoning can be simple as: Giving the lord of light another sacrafice to strengthen the living against the dead. Or short, killing Stannis by fire will secure their victory against the others.
      But what I’m 100% certain of is that Stannis himself and the Northerns that follow him will survive the attack from the bolton’s, maybe not all but almost all. But his southern army will die 100%. But how that play out I still wondering. But Theon’s chapter gave it away that Stannis will survive that attack

      Theon states to Stannis that Stannis has lost the battle, there is no where to run and to go and that Ramsay outnumber him. And that he has no way to win, no way to trap Ramsay’s army. And Stannis states something: For now! With a tone that suggest that Stannis has already though of a plan, and Theon asks himself what that plan is. I will look up the theory now how many think how Stannis will survive the battle. But I post it in another post.

      I think Jon will also become King in the north, because Robb put that in his will.

      As for Jon’s motive. The motive is almost the same as the book, but a bit different. Depends if Rickon is back at Winterfell already or not.
      What we do know. Jon get killed comes back alive and can leave the nights watch legally. He will probably like in the show be done with the NW. So his focus will be the war against the others.
      What we also know is that Ramsay send a letter about that he wants Arya back. And that stannis is dead. Even when Stannis survives, that’s not the information Jon and Mel will have to deal with. They believe he is dead. And the letter states that Ramsay will come to the Wall if he doesn’t get his bride back and the Red woman etc. And he wants “Arya back”. How far will Jon go to Arya? Will he march to Winterfel for her?
      I also think Mel sees some vision that need Jon in Winterfel. So she pushes Jon towards it with the Arya thrope she also used in Dance.
      And Jon will probably live awhile inside Ghost. Meaning he will probably see something that makes him decide to go south.

      And even if Stannis takes Winterfell from the inside, doesn’t mean that that will not happen maybe a day before Jon and Mel arrives at Winterfell. Meaning they are already on the move south with the notion that they need to defeat the Boltons.

      Another thing that could happen is that Jon would only go south once the wall breaks. But I still think he will be “My duty is done.”

        Quote  Reply

    231. Ten Bears,

      Yep, there was an issue with Tyrion, he killed his father and lover, they showed his depression for a few episodes and then he wanted to build a better world. That’s basically the opposite of book Tyrion. They didn’t want to go down the dark dark Tyrion route, so it all fell flat. It wasn’t really a natural progression, book Tyrion wants everyone dead, and he will set it in motion (already has by sending fAegon west) before he reneges on it. I don’t think he will be a blundering idiot in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    232. kevin1989: LF was always against the way lord-ship works. That it went down from father to son. His methods are also very capitalistic, working yourself from not much to the top. And I think it’s also not out of character if he wants a new system, where the richest has the most statue, he is the richest man in Westeros but still his statue is overshadowed by every lord who has less in the pocket.

      I think I can agree with this in part, particularly Littlefinger moving up from bottom to the top and wanting to circumvent the lordship inheritance system. Littlefinger does thrive on chaos and uses it to his advantage (“Chaos is a laddah!”).

      And agree, I hope Sansa will out-smart LF. And I wonder if LF comes clean after she did that. What his true motive is, which maybe will shock people, and maybe thinking, he is partly right.

      I would really like Sansa to genuinely outsmart LF (rather than fall for LF’s tricks — again — as she did in season 7 when Littlefinger was kindling and fanning the flames of the Sansa vs. Arya war). Admittedly, I have a really hard time ever thinking LF’s true motive might be partly right but it’s not out of the realm of possibility?

        Quote  Reply

    233. kevin1989,

      Re: Stannis, victory, and the burning:

      I’m not sure. This seems to hinge on many certain events happening, which may not come to pass this way. I think that could be a motive for Melisandre to burn Stannis but Melisandre has already experienced failures with her visions and if she realizes Stannis is not the Prince that was Promised after all, I don’t know how strong Melisandre’s conviction in herself would be.

      Theon states to Stannis that Stannis has lost the battle, there is no where to run and to go and that Ramsay outnumber him. And that he has no way to win, no way to trap Ramsay’s army. And Stannis states something: For now! With a tone that suggest that Stannis has already though of a plan, and Theon asks himself what that plan is. I will look up the theory now how many think how Stannis will survive the battle. But I post it in another post.

      Sure but while Stannis may have a plan, he may not actually survive. I still have trouble seeing Melisandre burn him.

      I think Jon will also become King in the north, because Robb put that in his will.

      Yes, but that will’s whereabouts are currently unknown and it had only been witnessed by a scant amount of people, many of whom are now dead. I don’t know how much of a part it will have to play. I like the idea of the Grand Northern Conspiracy but it seems really really involved.

      As for Jon’s motive. The motive is almost the same as the book, but a bit different. Depends if Rickon is back at Winterfell already or not.

      I think Davos is still searching for Rickon, who is on the island of Skagos?

      What we also know is that Ramsay send a letter about that he wants Arya back. And that stannis is dead. Even when Stannis survives, that’s not the information Jon and Mel will have to deal with. They believe he is dead. And the letter states that Ramsay will come to the Wall if he doesn’t get his bride back and the Red woman etc. And he wants “Arya back”. How far will Jon go to Arya? Will he march to Winterfel for her?

      Well, from Ramsay’s letter, I’d think Jon would realize Ramsay doesn’t have Arya because Ramsay is demanding Arya back and Jon doesn’t have her either (but it’s not like there’s any universe in which Jon would ever return Arya to that monster). Jon is marching on Ramsay due to the moral depravity Ramsay demonstrates in the Pink Letter, Ramsay’s the guy who holds the seat of House Stark but is utterly debasing everything Ned Stark stood for.

      From Adam Feldman:

      Prior to the Pink Letter, Jon had to try to stomach a North ruled by “the Boltons,” with Roose in charge. Now, Ramsay has announced his own centrality and decided to rub his moral repulsiveness in Jon’s face, by bragging about flaying women. This is the monster who holds Winterfell, perverting everything Ned Stark stood for. This is the monster who wants his “bride back.” The solution now seems obvious. Ramsay is a monster — and heroes kill monsters. They don’t stand by and let monsters run rampant. They set the world to rights.

      Ramsay also demands that Jon himself commit a morally repulsive action. He demands Jon turn over a bunch of people under his protection to the Boltons, in hopes of avoiding Bolton retaliation against the Watch. Of course Jon doesn’t even have “Reek” or “Arya” to turn over, though they could well be headed to the Wall. But this hardly matters. Based on all of Jon’s previous actions in this book, the answer here is quite obviously “no” — just as he refused to kill the old man, Jon simply will not morally debase himself to please a monster, no matter the risk to the Watch, his peace, or the larger struggle. Though Jon says it’s not for the Watch to “defend [Stannis’] widow and his daughter,” Jon will — he won’t “let them die.” He won’t even lie about or deny Ramsay’s (true) accusations re: Mance — instead, he reads the Pink Letter aloud to all, clarifies things, and lets the chips fall where they may.

      ___

      I also think Mel sees some vision that need Jon in Winterfel. So she pushes Jon towards it with the Arya thrope she also used in Dance.

      Perhaps, but Jon no longer trusts Melisandre about her visions because she utterly screwed up the Arya vision.

      But it depends on where Jon’s head is at post-resurrection and what happens there. Marching on Winterfell may no longer be Jon’s primary concern — something else may happen, there’s already chaos breaking out at the Wall triggered by Jon’s assassination and what may lead to the breaking of the peace between the Watch and the wildlings (the alliance between whom was fragile and held together by Jon, who’s been killed in a mutiny by his own men while Tormund and other wildlings leaders respect Jon). Something else may happen to put the Winterfell march on hold.

        Quote  Reply

    234. kevin1989,

      https://www.quora.com/If-Stannis-is-not-dead-in-The-Winds-of-Winter-who-sent-the-letter-to-Jon-claiming-his-death

      Here are some ideas what could have happened. One is that the pink letter is not send by Ramsay but by Mance with a coded Message for Melisande. One is the big plan of Stannis. And in all the Bolton’s are defeated and Stannis survives.
      And a letter is not prove Stannis died. Davos died by letter. But he is alive.

      My favorite theory is (which I can’t find anywhere), is that Stannis will wait inside a cave (which has information about the WW), and he gave his sword to the Manderly’s. As prove Stannis is death. The Manderly’s take out the Freys after the Freys take out a big portion of Stannis army, making them the biggest army fighting against the boltons meaning Stannis needs them and he gets along with Wayman plan. Some of Stannis soldiers will take on the Frey armor and infiltrate the castle. And open the gates for Stannis army, Manderly’s. Rickon and Osha who brough their wildling army from Skyros.

      Adrianacandle,

      Forgot to answer to the Jon and Dany love. It could happen but I wonder how. And maybe it was more that D&D merged Jon and Aegon that that love was in the books. Problem is that we don’t know anything about dreams before winds has been released. We can all guess a bit the first steps in winds but after that it becomes muddier for us to guess.

      Adrianacandle: Perhaps. I still feel she’ll get to Winterfell sooner. I wonder how she’d view fAegon if she meets him?

      Maybe she will go to Winterfell after she hears that Jon Snow and Rickon are back at the Castle. And she feel safe again to go north. It would be nice if she would go back to Winterfell before the wall comes down and be part of the WW build up. But I don’t see it happen before. The defeat of the Boltons will happen in first 200/300 pages of the book. And I don’t see Sansa already back in Winterfell when her Harry the Heir storyline just started.

      And it would be strange if Sansa was left out that much in Feast and Dance, that she will become the character that had a huge amount of chapters in winds. Because it takes a lot of chapters before she gain the trust of the Vale before they will help her.

      And about Sansa and Aegon. (I call him Aegon because I’m still think he is the real deal and even if he is fake I don’t think that will ever be answered in the books, we have to take him as real). I always had a fan-fiction in my head that history will repeat itself. Aegon like his father, put his Martel wife to the side, to choose a Stark as his true love.

        Quote  Reply

    235. Efi,

      I agree, that sounds also possible, I’m not convinced that Hizdahr is the Harpy. He is too obvious, it needs to be somebody we don’t suspect. And I think the simplest answer is Varys and Illyrio to get Dany going west and leave Meereen. But that is strange because they don’t seem to know anything about it. Or the Green Graces herself. Or that Shavepate guy, don’t know that exotic name. And I think Dany answers the questions wrong. Another thing is that Belwas is working for the harpy, and his plan was to poison Dany, but got poisoned himself.

        Quote  Reply

    236. Dame of Mercia,

      Is that something like a animal shelter?
      And I like that you got yourself an older cat. Too many people only want a pup or kitten, but getting a older cat shows a lot of commitment to an animal and that you want to give a cat/dog a good life.

      I like the name, make me think of the flintstones. Was she a quiet cat or more “naughty and playful”?

      But cherish the good moments together, and the good life she got. Maybe a nice idea, we did that with our dog. Look up a nice photo you have of her, and get it to a artist who can make a drawing of it. We had a really nice on that was spot on. And we still treasure that drawing and had it framed.
      Or put a picture on a canvas. I like canvas a lot myself.

        Quote  Reply

    237. Adrianacandle,

      I still remember my companion. Her name was “Nala”, and when my parents divorced she was the one who I count on the most. Showing her love when I was down and get a smile on my face. Or I could tell her things I wanted to share, and she would never tell 😉 A dog or a cat is more than just a pet, as you state its a companion, part of the family.

        Quote  Reply

    238. Ten Bears:
      Jenny,

      After S6, all of Tyron’s jokes fell flat – and so did his clever plans.

      I think the blame is Dany, she told Tyrion straight forward: Enough with the clever plans.
      So he did.

      Adrianacandle,

      If his real agenda is toppling the power a few houses has (who are born with it) and want to install a system that is more “You work for it”. I think I will be partly on his side.
      Which would also be amazing if GRRM goes this route. Now at the end of book 5. We all choose Varys over LF. Varys wants to have peace in the realm, LF chaos. But what if in the end it will turn into LF wants freedom overall, our way of life with capitalism, it’s not perfect but people have freedom. And Varys will be the guy who put his puppet on the throne, who is made in the image Varys wants. Which is ultimate control. I think we maybe think Varys as the bad guy of the two, and that at least LF is trying to implement a more modern system.

      And what I would love is that Sansa would outsmart LF. The truth comes out and Sansa build on it further in some sense.

      And maybe in the books Sansa is the one that will suggest a more free way of living. And that they need a chosen King, and best somebody who can’t have children. So Bran.

        Quote  Reply

    239. Adrianacandle,

      I see where you’re coming from. That’s why I also have in my mind that maybe Stannis kills Mel for the killing of Shireen. And that Stannis dies in the battle with the others. Some even suggest that Dany will kill Stannis because Stannis was one Dany was warned about in her visions/warnings. But I’m very certain for 99% that Stannis is involved with the defeat of the Bolton’s, and I don’t think the Bolton’s will be defeated into battle, because that’s not how that storyline has been progressing for a whole book. The whole Manderly storyline is already about defeat his enemies (Which is also roose) in silent and from within. With his right he helps his enemy and with his left he defeats them. And that plan needs to go into fruition if GRRM wants that storyline to hold. And I hope personally the Bolton’s are defeated from within, in a poetic sense, instead of a battle. It feels more earned if it’s a big strategic plan. Like Trojan Horse. Ramsay takes in his enemies army when thinking it’s the freys. They open the gates of Winterfell, and the army storm the castle. Northmen, Manderly, more? And I would like that Stannis keeps his word with giving Jon Roose head if I’m not mistaken.

      As for the letter you’re true. I wonder who has it. Maybe for the books it’s more logical if Rickon would be crowned King in the north?

      As for Davos. Davos moved on both the same time Manderly moved to Winterfell on horse/Carriage. Do we know how? It’s safe to assume Davos will arrive much much sooner in Skagos than Manderly in Winterfell. And the question is how long does it take Davos to get Rickon. A week? 2 weeks max. I think we get 1 or 2 chapters of Davos in Skagos at the beginning of the book. Davos is at Skagos arround the time that Stannis is at deepwood motte. Lot of time passed there. We got time skips of many characters of more than a month after Davos last chapter.

      A big theory is that Manderly already has Rickon safe somewhere to await the right moment, that place is close to the weirwood tree Stannis will bring Theon his next chapter. And Stannis will meet with Rickon and that will safe Theon’s life. Theon confess he never killed the boys. And then the plan will be revealed how to defeat the Bolton’s.

      When I read that explanation about Jon going south, I could not disagree, that seems the Jon I know. But he is stabbed now, and we get probably first a couple of Jon is in Ghost chapter, or maybe even just one. And we know that GRRM didn’t skip a Jon chapter from Dance, but he put a lot of chapter from the battle of Stannis and Ramsay into winds that were supposed to be in dance. (Which is logical chronically). Which means that there are a lot of things that can happen around Winter-fell before Jon arrives. First the letter needs to be send, which is still I think 2 or 3 chapters away minimum and at least a day in world. Then the letter needs to arrive in Castle Black. Jon getting back to life. Going south. Which is enough time for Manderly to already destroy the Bolton’s.

      And to think off it, that also mean that there is enough time for Sansa’s chapters that were moved to winds to push her towards WF around the time Jon arrives.

        Quote  Reply

    240. Adrianacandle:
      kevin1989,

      I’ve replied but my post is currently being held in moderation — hopefully it’ll be cleared soon 🙂

      I will wait for your comment. I like this discussion. And I really hope we find out soon how everything turn out in winds. It’s very difficult because of the whole chronical changes in dance at the end.

        Quote  Reply

    241. kevin1989,

      Yeah, Quora… Quora does have a lot of theories but ones I tend to take with a grain of salt. I think you can get a really mixed bag on Quora and, well, most places really. There are a million ways this story can go and we only have the show (in which there are some divergences to the books but I think the broad strokes are the same, as is the ending), released chapters, and GRRM’s comments to go on.

      I do think Stannis is alive but I’m not so sure of his victory. We are speculating a lot and these speculations are quite involved, they hinge on many, many things, and I think that’s what happens after 8 years with no new book.

      Forgot to answer to the Jon and Dany love. It could happen but I wonder how. And maybe it was more that D&D merged Jon and Aegon that that love was in the books. Problem is that we don’t know anything about dreams before winds has been released. We can all guess a bit the first steps in winds but after that it becomes muddier for us to guess.

      Based on GRRM’s comments and Alan Taylor’s comments in Taylor’s interview, the Jon/Dany love doesn’t seem to be divergent from GRRM’s plans. In contrast, these comments indicate they’re going in the same direction with Jon and Dany as GRRM intends to.

      I don’t think it’s going to end well at all, no. But I don’t see it being fAegon’s story either, especially because fAegon is a threat to Dany and nobody knows Jon is a Targaryen — except Howland Reed, wherever he is, and he doesn’t appear to have told a soul.

      Like, I have no idea of the timeline either. I don’t know how it’s going to be with Jon after he comes back, I don’t know what Dany’s going to do post-Dance. But there seems to be quite a bit connecting them in the text. I can get you a compilation if you like? But it’s GRRM’s comments which seem most important to me. I think their romance will end badly, but I think it’s going to happen

      I always had a fan-fiction in my head that history will repeat itself. Aegon like his father, put his Martel wife to the side, to choose a Stark as his true love.

      I had wondered if Sansa and Young Griff (I’ll call him Young Griff as that seems to be a fairly neutral term ;D) might form a union? I don’t know. I haven’t thought too deeply about it.

        Quote  Reply

    242. kevin1989,

      ”… A dog or a cat is more than just a pet, as you state its a companion, part of the family.”

      A bird is too. Until we had one, I never realized a bird has a soul and has emotions.
      Having a bird is like having a baby that never grows up.” – Me

        Quote  Reply

    243. kevin1989,

      Yay!! My post was released! It must have been because I burned my finger on the curling iron!!

      I can’t refute what you’re saying re: Stannis but I can’t entirely be on board either since there are so many ways this story could go and I have no idea how it’s going to go or what GRRM’s intentions are. I’m really not good with speculation! I like to read it but I don’t find myself married to any one theory because I have no idea how things are going to happen so it’s hard for me to really comment.

      And I would like that Stannis keeps his word with giving Jon Roose head if I’m not mistaken.

      I don’t recall that passage? I know Stannis promises Jon that he’ll save Arya if he can and Jon finds that surprisingly tender for Stannis but nothing about Roose’s head.

      As for the letter you’re true. I wonder who has it. Maybe for the books it’s more logical if Rickon would be crowned King in the north?

      I don’t know either. God, I’m sorry. I’m not great at speculating because it’s beyond the realm of using commentary as support to explain my thinking XD;; I’m no theory-crafter!

      As for Davos. Davos moved on both the same time Manderly moved to Winterfell on horse/Carriage. Do we know how? It’s safe to assume Davos will arrive much much sooner in Skagos than Manderly in Winterfell. And the question is how long does it take Davos to get Rickon. A week? 2 weeks max. I think we get 1 or 2 chapters of Davos in Skagos at the beginning of the book. Davos is at Skagos arround the time that Stannis is at deepwood motte. Lot of time passed there. We got time skips of many characters of more than a month after Davos last chapter.

      I think, for us to correctly assess this, we’d need to know the distances between places. I found this . It doesn’t mention Skagos but it gives us an idea of how big Westeor is.

      As for the rest, I hesitate to fully agree or disagree because I have no idea what’s going to happen with Jon, what’s happening in the chaos as a result of the assassination between the Watch and the wildlings, if Stannis is successful, what happens with Theon and Jeyne, and what other events will be going on that will prove to be obstacles so I can’t commit to any one theory or buy into one 100%, unless it’s been confirmed by the author. It’s so hard for me to be sure of any future events beyond what GRRM has commented on.

      But I enjoy reading speculations!!

        Quote  Reply

    244. kevin1989: I still remember my companion. Her name was “Nala”, and when my parents divorced she was the one who I count on the most. Showing her love when I was down and get a smile on my face. Or I could tell her things I wanted to share, and she would never tell 😉 A dog or a cat is more than just a pet, as you state its a companion, part of the family.

      That’s so true! And what Ten Bears said too!

      It’s harsh they don’t live nearly as long as us. They can be the ones who are most there during times of need — they don’t judge, they’re present, and they seem to sense emotion, even my cat. She gets the hell out of dodge when I get angry and start angry crying (pounding on keyboard, screaming at phone, …. throwing phone… contemplating throwing entire laptop… remembering I can’t do anything without laptop… screaming resumes…. angry trampolining) but when I’m sad or sick, she’s by my side.

      And a pet can be your one true companion during times of difficulty in the way people can’t always be because people have their own stuff to deal with.

      I love the name “Nala” — Lion King??

        Quote  Reply

    245. Adrianacandle,

      ”Based on GRRM’s comments and Alan Taylor’s comments in Taylor’s interview, the Jon/Dany love doesn’t seem to be divergent from GRRM’s plans. In contrast, these comments indicate they’re going in the same direction with Jon and Dany as GRRM intends to.”

      ________
      If -and that’s a big if – the Big Kahuna ever gets around to finishing his story, I hope he is able to craft a credible Jon & Dany love story, so that if Jon is ultimately compelled to put her down. his decision will have tragic weight (and as GRRM likes to say, it will show “the human heart in conflict with itself.”)

      I didn’t quite get that from the show. Perhaps it was “the race to the finish” in S7 and S8. It felt like Dany and Jon had a tryst, and then before you knew it they were marching into WF and their budding romance began fraying.
      ……….
      ”I had wondered if Sansa and Young Griff (I’ll call him Young Griff as that seems to be a fairly neutral term ;D) might form a union? I don’t know. I haven’t thought too deeply about it.”

      As a non-book reader speaking from ignorance, would it be wrong for me to assume that Young Griff’s absence from the show signified that he was irrelevant to the big picture, and won’t factor into the endgame?

        Quote  Reply

    246. kevin1989: And maybe in the books Sansa is the one that will suggest a more free way of living. And that they need a chosen King, and best somebody who can’t have children. So Bran.

      Oh, I see! In a twisted way, LF has gotten everything on his own steam — even if it’s by his slimy, duplicitous, jerkface means, these did come from his mind. But I think LF wanting this meritocracy and freedom for all of society seems a bit too altruistic for him 😉 It creates competition for him.

      I don’t know how Sansa’s going to develop but it’d make sense for Westeros to come away from blood-succession governance into something more elected, gradually.

        Quote  Reply

    247. Adrianacandle,

      About Alan Taylor, he states it was all along about Dany and Jon, but that’s true even if they won’t form a couple. Both storylines became the center of the story, and also in the books we’re heading that way. But when Taylor was asks if that meant that they also become a romantic couple in the books (instead of a union), Taylor didn’t elaborate. And the reason they are the center of the story is because Jon=Ice and Dany=Fire at least that’s what Taylor said. But even that is a mistake because Jon=Ice+Fire. Dany=Fire and the others are probably Ice.
      But for me the interview Taylor gave, gives me more that Jon and Dany are going to work together to defeat the other’s. Not perse that George will go towards them being a couple, he seemed to avoided that question on purpose. And I only see Talyor talking about it, and not George. Can’t find a source where GRRM himself states it to be true, not on his blog or an interview with the man himself.

      At least I’m happy Martin and GRRM changed this love triangle:
      https://www.businessinsider.com/jon-snow-arya-stark-romance-2016-7?international=true&r=US&IR=T

      And you’re right it seems more likely Dany will be mad at Aegon, especially with her visions.

      Well it was a fan-faction in my head on the two. Maybe because I liked Griff somehow. And I started to like Sansa in Feast and Dance. And I loved the Lyanna Rheagar love theory, which came true. So I combined them.

        Quote  Reply

    248. Ten Bears: If -and that’s a big if – the Big Kahuna ever gets around to finishing his story, I hope he is able to craft a credible Jon & Dany love story, so that if Jon is ultimately compelled to put her down. his decision will have tragic weight (and as GRRM likes to say, it will show “the human heart in conflict with itself.”)

      I didn’t quite get that from the show. Perhaps it was “the race to the finish” in S7 and S8. It felt like Dany and Jon had a tryst, and then before you knew it they were marching into WF and their budding romance began fraying.

      Per our conversations about this before, I felt conflictedness and Jon’s anguish, I saw what the cast/crew and scripts were saying, but I think it was rushed needed more development. Unfortunately, this relationship happened in the rushed season 7 (which also contained the inexplicable Sansa-trusts-LF-believes-Arya-wants-to-be-Lady-of-Winterfell-considers-killing her and the expedited season 8, where very few relationships got any development whatsoever).

      But I think this is an advantage the books have over the show: the books have no time limits, we’ll have access to the character’s thoughts, and I think there will be more time to do what the story needs to do.

        Quote  Reply

    249. Ten Bears:
      kevin1989,

      ”… A dog or a cat is more than just a pet, as you state its a companion, part of the family.”

      A bird is too. Until we had one, I never realized a bird has a soul and has emotions.“Having a bird is like having a baby that never grows up.” – Me

      Sorry, didn’t want to dismiss you. You’re right, and birds are very loyal. And If I’m not mistaken, many times a bird sees one of their owners as their partner? I read something like that. That they choose one partner for life and have a big bond with that partner. And if another bird is not there to fill that role, they most of the time have that bond with their owner.

      What kind of bird did you have? We had budgies in the past. (right word right in English?)

      And I think we can all agree, pets are the greatest companion you can have. No matter what kind of pet.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Ten Bears: As a non-book reader speaking from ignorance, would it be wrong for me to assume that Young Griff’s absence from the show signified that he was irrelevant to the big picture, and won’t factor into the endgame?

      I think he will have a significant impact but this is one of the divergences GRRM was referring to, because characters who have been killed in the show and are still alive in the books, characters that exist in the books and not in the show, will cause plot divergences. So while I think the broad strokes are the same, how they may get to these places may be different.

        Quote  Reply

    251. kevin1989,

      About Alan Taylor, he states it was all along about Dany and Jon, but that’s true even if they won’t form a couple. Both storylines became the center of the story, and also in the books we’re heading that way. But when Taylor was asks if that meant that they also become a romantic couple in the books (instead of a union), Taylor didn’t elaborate. And the reason they are the center of the story is because Jon=Ice and Dany=Fire at least that’s what Taylor said. But even that is a mistake because Jon=Ice+Fire. Dany=Fire and the others are probably Ice.
      But for me the interview Taylor gave, gives me more that Jon and Dany are going to work together to defeat the other’s. Not perse that George will go towards them being a couple, he seemed to avoided that question on purpose. And I only see Talyor talking about it, and not George. Can’t find a source where GRRM himself states it to be true, not on his blog or an interview with the man himself.

      At the point Taylor was commenting, Jon and Dany hadn’t become a couple and Taylor wasn’t able to spoil that yet — that’s why he couldn’t elaborate. He’s also recollecting what GRRM had told him so you won’t find a source on a blog, just via Tyalor’s own words.

      His comments:

      We were in Malta shooting episode ten of the first season, and the show wasn’t a big deal yet and we weren’t being very secretive because nobody cared yet, and [Martin] just sort of mentioned in passing, “Oh well it’s all about Dany and Jon Snow” and at the time I thought, “Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?”
      But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it’s circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, “fire and ice.”

      What came after this interview was Jon and Dany becoming a couple before the revelation tears them apart.

      I didn’t say this was a guarantee but it indicates they’re both going in the same direction as Taylor knew what was next for Jon and Dany (7×06 and 7×07). This interview was done just before 7×06 and was released the day after 7×06 aired.

        Quote  Reply

    252. Adrianacandle,

      ”Re: Sansa and the KotV in the show, I agree with your description of the logic/geographic problems. Despite the lengthy debates over why Sansa concealed the KoTV in which we go over Sansa’s motives for this choice, it seems done only to bring about that dramatic, surprising 11th hour save. Neither the writers or the character herself explain why she did what she did.

      I think it would make more sense if, as you said, Sansa comes riding to Winterfell with the KotV before she and Jon reunite, providing a reason for Jon not knowing about Sansa and the KotV.”
      ______
      In retrospect, I thought it was really unfair to Sophie Turner to leave her twisting in the wind trying to explain her character’s motivations.
      And as I recall, the KotV concealment ignited a raging fan war between pro-Sansa and anti-Sansa factions, with all kinds of theories why Sansa either brilliantly – or stupidly – withheld critical intel from Jon and the soldiers fighting and dying for Team Stark.
      I don’t mean to dredge up old controversies. I just figure that not every adaptation decision can be successful. For me, merging Sansa with Jeyne Poole to give Sansa/Sophie something to do, created insurmountable problems and left logical gaps too wide to fill. I’m not sure why the showrunners felt that it would’ve been so bad to let Sansa hang out in the Vale and do whatever she was doing in the books. Was it that boring?

        Quote  Reply

    253. Adrianacandle,

      We all need to wait on the man to release his book till we know for certain.

      And it seems I probably got 2 things intertwined. I could remember he said something like that. But I think I got it mixed up with the Renly stating giving Cat Joffrey’s head.

      I like to speculate, and some theories I like to think off. But I’m not that great at it either. Sometimes I see a connection. But most of the time I read them and I am, this one is the most reasonable. And I’m pretty well into connecting multiple theories to give a bigger picture. But still that’s difficult and even then I’m stuck sometimes with saying something I later disagree with because another theory contradicts it.

      Adrianacandle,

      Skagos is east of Eastwatch. And it seems my distance was way off. White Harbor/Skagos is 4/5 times longer than White Harbor Winterfell. And I don’t know how much faster ships are than being on foot. But I think that means I was wrong and Manderly could get to Winterfell faster than Davos towards Skagos.

      Adrianacandle,

      Yes, our favorite movie when we were young. So that’s easy when you get a female puppy.

        Quote  Reply

    254. Ten Bears,

      Big speculation is that he will be the reason Dany burn KL to the ground in the books. (Not Cersei), so he will be important for the endgame.
      the reason it was cut was because the show already had too many characters. GRRM understood why D&D cut some characters out, but he had urge this character to be in it, same as Lady Stoneheart. He was not happy when those 2 were cut. Same with Arianne. I think that’s one of the reasons why he distance himself from the show in season 5 and beyond. Not because writing his books, because he still like his projects and helping with them. But because they failed too listen which characters are important for the endgame.

      He has spoken of it in interviews that those characters had important storylines in his books.

      And Young Griff is already given hints of in the first book. And every book after that had hints of him until he was shown in book 5. George always planned to introduced that character.

        Quote  Reply

    255. Ten Bears: In retrospect, I thought it was really unfair to Sophie Turner to leave her twisting in the wind trying to explain her character’s motivations.
      And as I recall, the KotV concealment ignited a raging fan war between pro-Sansa and anti-Sansa factions, with all kinds of theories why Sansa either brilliantly – or stupidly – withheld critical intel from Jon and the soldiers fighting and dying for Team Stark.
      I don’t mean to dredge up old controversies. I just figure that not every adaptation decision can be successful. For me, merging Sansa with Jeyne Poole to give Sansa/Sophie something to do, created insurmountable problems and left logical gaps too wide to fill. I’m not sure why the showrunners felt that it would’ve been so bad to let Sansa hang out in the Vale and do whatever she was doing in the books. Was it that boring?

      I think it was done to streamline two storylines — one storyline, which didn’t exist yet, and another that did but it was a story with Theon and a minor character (Jeyne Poole). However, this story was important to Theon’s arc and the storyline in the North. with the Boltons. Although, had it not been for Theon’s storyline, I don’t know if it would have been necessary to send Sansa to marry Ramsay in lieu of Jeyne Poole/fArya. In contrast to the books, the North didn’t seem particularly motivated to save Sansa, nor did Stannis.

        Quote  Reply

    256. Adrianacandle,

      True but still that system is a system LF could easily be the master of. The backstabbing, scheming way to make yourself richer and more powerful.

      Adrianacandle,

      And another thing the books have that works better for it, is that not every character needs a certain screentime per season. For the characters that mean most of the time 6/10 episodes a season. But for the books George could think off, this character only needs 3 chapters. Next book will get more for them and others less. He has more freedom for that.
      And of course, the thoughts of the characters.

        Quote  Reply

    257. kevin1989,

      Yes. Birds bond. They consider “their” human(s) to be their flock.
      And yes, “budgies” is the right word in English. It’s short for “budgerigars” I think. Most people call them parakeets but “budgies” is the accurate term to sprcify the popular pet bird species.

      (There are lots of different kinds of parakeets. For example, colorful green “Quaker Parakeets” seem to adapt well to cityscapes; it’s my understanding that a few escaped pet Quaker Parakeets multiplied in the wild, and they have now established communities all over the U.S.)

      PS I had a budgie. My first bird. He’s been gone thirty years. I still miss him. 😢

        Quote  Reply

    258. kevin,

      Yeah. ASOIAF really gives a lot of opportunity for theories — all kinds of theories — but because there are so many theories, you can find one that you agree with more than the other or another contradicts it in a convincing way. Which is why I find it so impossible to anticipate what’s going to happen next!

      We all need to wait on the man to release his book till we know for certain.

      That’s very true. While it does seems to me they’re heading this way in the books or I don’t think Taylor would have been able to say, “[Martin] knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition [with Jon and Dany],” as the show had them becoming romantically involved right after this point and it’d be a major divergence for something as significant as the nature of Jon and Dany’s relationship, this isn’t a guarantee. And I think some plot details will be different.

      Skagos is east of Eastwatch. And it seems my distance was way off. White Harbor/Skagos is 4/5 times longer than White Harbor Winterfell. And I don’t know how much faster ships are than being on foot. But I think that means I was wrong and Manderly could get to Winterfell faster than Davos towards Skagos.

      I think it also depends on the timeline of Winds and what Rickon is like/what state he’s in/how wild he is when/if Davos or Manderly finds him. Like, there’s so much that could happen.

      Yes, our favorite movie when we were young. So that’s easy when you get a female puppy.

      Omg!!! MINE TOO. And “A Little Princess” (which stars a WWI Davos!!)

        Quote  Reply

    259. kevin1989: True but still that system is a system LF could easily be the master of. The backstabbing, scheming way to make yourself richer and more powerful.

      That’s true. Making a system that could benefit himself as LF can’t make himself have the right blood, right history, or right name.

      And another thing the books have that works better for it, is that not every character needs a certain screentime per season. For the characters that mean most of the time 6/10 episodes a season. But for the books George could think off, this character only needs 3 chapters. Next book will get more for them and others less. He has more freedom for that.
      And of course, the thoughts of the characters.

      Yes, GRRM has more freedom when it comes to the books, it’s not so constrained, and he’s not limited to 10, 7, 6 hours of time per season. He can write on forever. If he manages to get the next book out at all.

      Speaking of which! I was on Wikipedia and found this article about the ASOIAF fandom!

      I liked this part XD;;

      GRRuMblers

      While Martin calls the majority of his fans “great”, and enjoys interacting with them,[19] some of them turned against him due to the six years it took to release A Dance with Dragons.[7] A movement of disaffected fans called GRRuMblers formed in 2009, creating sites such as Finish the Book, George and Is Winter Coming?.[7][20] It is not uncommon for Martin to be mobbed at book signings either.[1] The New Yorker called this “an astonishing amount of effort to devote to denouncing the author of books one professes to love. Few contemporary authors can claim to have inspired such passion.”[7]

      When fans’ vocal impatience for A Dance with Dragons peaked in 2009, Martin issued an angry statement called “To My Detractors”[18] on his blog to stem a rising tide of anger.[21] Author Neil Gaiman backed Martin on his own blog, replying to a fan’s inquiry about Martin’s tardiness that “George R. R. Martin is not your bitch.”[7][22] Martin sees it a right to withdraw anytime and enjoy his leisure times as he chooses.[19] Martin believes of himself as being bound by an informal contract with his readers; he feels that he owes them his best work. He does not, however, believe that this gives them the right to dictate the particulars of his creative process or to complain about how he manages his time. As far as the detractors are concerned, Martin’s contract with them was for a story, their engagement with it offered on the understanding that he would provide them with a satisfying conclusion.[7]

      “After all, as some of you like to point out in your emails, I am sixty years old and fat, and you don’t want me to ‘pull a Robert Jordan’ on you and deny you your book. Okay, I’ve got the message. You don’t want me doing anything except A Song of Ice and Fire. Ever. (Well, maybe it’s okay if I take a leak once in a while?)
      —George R. R. Martin on his blog in 2009[18]

        Quote  Reply

    260. Adrianacandle,

      I won’t mind if they become a couple, if it at least is better build in the books. Or at least have a feeling time has passed. It could just be one chapter of both where maybe 2 months pass in that moment but at least hear their thoughts about each other.

      Ten Bears,

      I agree with you fully ten bears. And no, her book storyline is brilliant. She will become the smart one in the books there. Out-smart LF etc. Her storyline is very interesting. I think just one reason the stories merge was: To make it easier storywise. Having one storyline less. Having storylines merge sooner. And no need to worry about the Jeyne Poole switch.

      Which I think is a shame because Jeyne Poole could have been a nice reminder of their past live.

      Adrianacandle,

      And maybe to get a stark reunion sooner.
      And I still think if they gave Sansa her Feast storyline in season 5 that that would have been enough. Let her make herself known in the Vale, make connection. Some powerplay with LF. And give her the amount of screentime that she had in season 2. Maybe less than what she got now but it would be enough. Let her story be about gaining power and insight and becoming smarter. Having control over Robin. Gain connection with Myranda Royce. Leaving the Eyrie because of the weather.
      They threw the build up from 4×08 out of the window.

        Quote  Reply

    261. Adrianacandle: In retrospect, I thought it was really unfair to Sophie Turner to leave her twisting in the wind trying to explain her character’s motivations.
      And as I recall, the KotV concealment ignited a raging fan war between pro-Sansa and anti-Sansa factions, with all kinds of theories why Sansa either brilliantly – or stupidly – withheld critical intel from Jon and the soldiers fighting and dying for Team Stark.

      I agree it was pretty unfair for Sophie Turner. There were quite a few wars over Sansa, turning her into even more of a divisive character, and I really think it was primarily done as a Plot Device to get the dramatic arrival of the Vale when all hope seemed lost and Jon was nearly re-killed.

        Quote  Reply

    262. Ten Bears,

      We had a green and a blue budgie. One was a frigid female, and the other was Tyrion in his earlier seasons. So that was a problem.

      Which color did you have?

      Adrianacandle,

      There’s also a theory Manderly is being a dick, and he has Rickon all along, and sends Davos on a wild goose chase, only there is no goose to be found. And his reason would be that Davos is too important for Stannis, and he needs Stannis weak for better wording so Manderly can be the one that decides what’s going to happen. But if that’s true, I wonder what Davos storyline will hold. Maybe his role is finding something about the WW. Still I stick with Davos will find Rickon in winds.

      Which version do you prefer, the 90s version or the 2019 version?

        Quote  Reply

    263. kevin1989,

      I agree re:Jon/Dany and better development. To that end, I’d like the same for Jon and Arya. Let them come to grips what has happened to the other since they were separated, let Jon see just how well Arya took, “Stick ’em with the pointy end,” to heart.

      And maybe to get a stark reunion sooner.
      And I still think if they gave Sansa her Feast storyline in season 5 that that would have been enough. Let her make herself known in the Vale, make connection. Some powerplay with LF. And give her the amount of screentime that she had in season 2. Maybe less than what she got now but it would be enough. Let her story be about gaining power and insight and becoming smarter. Having control over Robin. Gain connection with Myranda Royce. Leaving the Eyrie because of the weather.
      They threw the build up from 4×08 out of the window.

      I would have preferred for Sansa to have stayed in the Vale and focus on strengths and apply her knowledge in clever ways, gaining a sense of agency on her own. But I’m not sure what they would have done with Theon as it seems Sansa was shuttled to the North to take Jeyne’s place, which was a big part of Theon’s storyline.

        Quote  Reply

    264. kevin1989,

      Still I stick with Davos will find Rickon in winds.

      Me too….

      Which version do you prefer, the 90s version or the 2019 version?

      I haven’t seen 2019 Lion King yet! But I think my bias will always be toward the 90s version, I had Lion King, Little Mermaid, and Beauty & the Beast everything! And we’d play Lion King at recess during school! ;;

      I had a My Little Pony lunchbox and a Nala thermos ;0; <3

        Quote  Reply

    265. Ten Bears,

      My October 12, 2019 at 7:18 pm comment is meant to ascribe your quote to you, not me (re:Sophie Turner having to explain Sansa’s KotV choice) — I’m not treating myself as two different people, one of whom I reply to as a separate entity, just yet 😉 And I know plagiarism is bad!

      Sorry about that!

        Quote  Reply

    266. kevin1989,

      Our zoo has a memorial for pets, with several of the vets in the valley. You make a contribution to the memorial or to the vet, you get a lovely card, along with a few tickets. We’ve done that for a lot of our friends who lost their pets.

      kevin1989,

      Nala? Hee thats the name of one of our current cat. Shes a beautiful orange long hair tabby. We also have a male Manecoon that of course we had to name Simba. Anyway, good choice ( yes Lion King is one of our fav m ovies, and musical. Refuse to see the new one….)Anyway our latest is named Lovey, cause thats the first thing i thought of when we saw her

      Adrianacandle,

      I am embarrassed to admit how old I was before I realized they were talking about a plain, and not a plane…..

      And a pet can be your one true companion during times of difficulty in the way people can’t always be because people have their own stuff to deal with.

      I always had at least one cat who was that way with me. I’d be depressed, in tears, and they’d jump up to me and let me hold them and cry. And yeah sometimes they can be pains but they are so good (always surprised when people say their cats aren’t all that friendly, the ones we have always have been)

        Quote  Reply

    267. Adrianacandle,

      hahahaha, well you know what I told this week. I still think GRRM owe his fans a conclusion. He started it, got famous for it, and got a lot of money from it. As with every job, start something finish it. But still I’m in GRRM corner. I can understand him not getting in writing mode, and I know it bothers him a lot. That makes a difference for me. It’s not that he doesn’t try. And the way those fans express their frustration is something I dislike a lot. The insults they gave him. Yikes. And it’s ironic, they love his books and want an ending but they insult the big man a lot.

      The only thing I’m not agreeing with is that GRRM got himself busy with all his other projects like with HBO and his prequels while his first project is still busy, but that problem lies with his publisher. They are the ones that don’t put deadlines in their contracts, what happens mostly with sagas that they got a certain amount of time before the next book needs to hit the shelves. (so my problem is working 2 jobs when the first is not done).
      But like every job, GRRM deserves his spare time, his freedom, let him watch the jets, or any other thing he loves. We love reading his books then, he loves something else.

        Quote  Reply

    268. kevin1989,

      ut cherish the good moments together, and the good life she got.

      Our vet always reminds us that our pets know they are well loved, and we have cared for them and loved them. We were both lucky to find each other. Helps to remember that

        Quote  Reply

    269. kevin1989,

      The only thing I’m not agreeing with is that GRRM got himself busy with all his other projects like with HBO and his prequels while his first project is still busy, but that problem lies with his publisher. They are the ones that don’t put deadlines in their contracts, what happens mostly with sagas that they got a certain amount of time before the next book needs to hit the shelves. (so my problem is working 2 jobs when the first is not done).

      Always pointing fingers, never at himself. I have problems with the last two seasons but those might have been better if he finished the damn books! Yes we do love reading his books. And i think he had an obligation to complete them. But I no longer expect it or care.

        Quote  Reply

    270. Sue, is there a reason that the blockquote link has disappeared? I’d like to use it; yes I can type it out but it takes longer and sometimes I mess it up. Just asking

        Quote  Reply

    271. Adrianacandle,

      Just give the book counter-part. Just explain this woman play’s Arya (which is even a nice putting next to Arya becoming No-One. She becomes no-one and Jeyne becomes her.)
      That story was about seeing the horror Ramsay could do, and about the whole lie that is being made by the Boltons. And I think they should have gone with the saving Jeyne part because the beauty is that somebody from Theon’s past made him feel a bit like a hero again and safes her.

      Adrianacandle,

      Same here. I’m not a big fan of that “realistic movies”, it pulls away the magic for me. Same with 101 Dalmatians. They made a remake of that with real dogs. Yikes. I love dogs, but how will they put in those conversations while feeling real. Having a dog talk would feel fake.

        Quote  Reply

    272. ash: I am embarrassed to admit how old I was before I realized they were talking about a plain, and not a plane…..

      That would be a soggy airplane!

      But you’re in good company. For years, with complete earnest, I thought this boy in my kindergarten class came up with the word ‘cool’ so when celebrities said it on TV, I thought, “Wow, Jessie is REALLY famous!” For years, I thought that! Yikes……..

      always had at least one cat who was that way with me. I’d be depressed, in tears, and they’d jump up to me and let me hold them and cry. And yeah sometimes they can be pains but they are so good (always surprised when people say their cats aren’t all that friendly, the ones we have always have been)

      Yes! They always seem to know the nuances of how you’re feeling. And I don’t know how they do that. Animals, in general, seem to sense it.

      I really like cats because they do offer that companionship but they’re also convenient! No walks! No using the living room as a toilet if you don’t let them outside! No barking! 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Dogs are great too! But they’re a level of work and commitment beyond me.

        Quote  Reply

    273. kevin1989,

      I think, legally, GRRM has already fulfilled his contract with us — we haven’t prepaid for future books and have received the books we paid for but I feel he’s stuck. And so his mind goes to things he’s not stuck on, things that are new and fresh and maybe don’t pose a million and one problems with enormous pressure, becoming knots he has to untangle and bring together into something cohesive.

      Just give the book counter-part. Just explain this woman play’s Arya (which is even a nice putting next to Arya becoming No-One. She becomes no-one and Jeyne becomes her.)
      That story was about seeing the horror Ramsay could do, and about the whole lie that is being made by the Boltons. And I think they should have gone with the saving Jeyne part because the beauty is that somebody from Theon’s past made him feel a bit like a hero again and safes her.

      I am wondering if they’d have enough time to allow for that in the show though because I think a big part of combining Sansa’s storyline with Theon’s was streamlining two major stories into one.

      Same here. I’m not a big fan of that “realistic movies”, it pulls away the magic for me. Same with 101 Dalmatians. They made a remake of that with real dogs. Yikes. I love dogs, but how will they put in those conversations while feeling real. Having a dog talk would feel fake.

      Yeah, that’s my issue too. Ironically, it feels more “real” when it’s a cartoon. Or more natural? I wonder if that’s the better word? Maybe because an animator can draw the animal in a way that it makes sense for them to have human expressions and move their jaws in a way that allows for it to look as if they’d have human speech?

        Quote  Reply

    274. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      ”Omg!!! MINE TOO. And “A Little Princess” (which stars a WWI Davos!!)”

      “Papa! Papa!”
      ……
      SARAH! SARAH!

      (Me: 😭😭😭😭😥)

      YESSSS!!!!!

      I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Pogo but he made this plunderphonics piece out of the Little Princess, which I love:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4jmB9fdZc8

      From Wikipedia, Pogo “is a South African-born, Australian electronic musician whose work consists of recording small sounds, quotes, and melodies from films, TV programmes or other sources, and sequencing the sounds together to form a new piece of music (a genre also known as plunderphonics). A number of Pogo’s works consist almost entirely of the sounds he samples, with few or no additional music or sound samples.”

        Quote  Reply

    275. kevin1989,

      Tried to post reply to your question. The Lord of Light diverted it to “That Page Not Found.” I’ll try again later or tomorrow. Gotta go to a family birthday party.
      PS My budgie was violet blue.

        Quote  Reply

    276. Adrianacandle,

      Six Degrees of Game of Thrones:

      Voice of Nala in “The Lion King” = Moira Kelley
      = figure skater Kate Moseley in “The Cutting Edge” co-starring Roy Dotrice as Russian skating coach
      Roy Dotrice = Pyromancer Hallyne in S2 GoT and ASOIAF audiobooks narrator

        Quote  Reply

    277. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Six Degrees of Game of Thrones:

      Voice of Nala in “The Lion King” = Moira Kelley= figure skater Kate Moseley in “The Cutting Edge” co-starring Roy Dotrice as Russian skating coach
      Roy Dotrice = Pyromancer Hallyne in S2 GoT and ASOIAF audiobooks narrator

      You have a true gift, Ten Bears!

        Quote  Reply

    278. kevin1989,

      (Re: Sansa Jeyne S5 merger)
      ”They threw the build up from 4×08 out of the window.”
      ____
      That’s exactly how I felt.
      I thought that scene in S4e8 when she came down the stairs silhouetted in sunlight, dressed in her Cat 2.0 outfit and exuding confidence (“Shall we go?”) signaled the emergence of the new and improved Sansa. (Or to use a familiar metaphor, I thought the little bird was finally going to spread her wings and take flight.)

      But nope. Back to being another psycho’s punching bag for yet another season.*

      * I mean, if the LF plan was for Sansa to infiltrate WF and poison all of the Boltons, I would’ve been on board with that.
      Oh wait. That’d require the skills and chutzpah of a Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess. 👸🏻🗡

        Quote  Reply

    279. kevin1989,

      Pebbles was the name she had when I got her. Maybe
      for the tortoiseshell on white marking. The Cats Protection League is a charity that co-ordinates the rehoming of cats and has shelters and foster homes. They inspect your home before they say it’s okay for you to have a cat and try to match you up with one. You are also expected to give a donation when you adopt a cat.

        Quote  Reply

    280. Dame of Mercia: Pebbles was the name she had when I got her. Maybe
      for the tortoiseshell on white marking. The Cats Protection League is a charity that co-ordinates the rehoming of cats and has shelters and foster homes. They inspect your home before they say it’s okay for you to have a cat and try to match you up with one. You are also expected to give a donation when you adopt a cat.

      That sounds like a really great, thorough system to make sure the right prospective adopter is matched up with the right cat and the prospective adopter is prepared for the responsibility 💖 I’ve seen several instances, even among my friends, where people surrender their pet because they’re no longer up for the responsibility or they find the animal to be more work than they expected.

      Which is why I could probably never have a dog.

        Quote  Reply

    281. Thank you all, Ten Bears, Adrianacandle, Tron, Jenny, Efi & Co. for the detailed books vs. show talk. I had planned to reread ASOIAF (I have read it only once), but I couldn’t find the time. Following your discussion helps me a lot!

        Quote  Reply

    282. Adrianacandle,

      Well personally I see it more as building a house, the books are the house. And we are the costumer, and GRRM is the house builder. And you pay per part of the house that is being delivered to you. And yes he did give us those parts of the house that we already paid for. But we still are left with only 5/7 of the house, if we knew beforehand that the house would never be finished, we wouldn’t have poured our money into that project, and would have chosen another project. We all started with the first book into the notion we would get the ending of it. If somebody had told his fans back then: You have only paid for the first book, so if I decide to stop writing the story and give you an open ending when I’m bored with it. He wouldn’t have had a single book sold and wouldn’t be living his dream right now, where he doesn’t need to worry about money, about choosing what he wants.
      That’s how a saga works, and even many saga-writers already state their opinion about it, and that GRRM is obligated to finish his story for his fans. Even Stephen King told that. Even in our country we had a amazing talkshow where writers, singers and actors come from all around the world, and is a pretty good talk-show (even when I don’t watch it often), but there was a writer there that stated that if you take the money of your readers, you should give them an ending to your story.

      Same with every other work-field where you poor money into. I know somebody who has a own small plumber company, they also get paid per part of the job they perform. (You can see that as paying per book). But in the end they need to finish the whole project (book-saga). If they do not, they need to pay every single penny back to the one that they had the contract with. Or else find another plumber that will finish the project for you. You can’t leave your customers where you get your money from with a half-baked project.

      Still I understand GRRM that he can’t get those chapters on paper if they are not in his mind, and living there. And luckily GRRM feels that he needs to give his fans closure, so I back GRRM all the way, and I believe he will finish the story. But I think instead of finding distractions (with all the new projects), focus on things that can get you’re muse back into the books. Old music, or other things.

      Because for me, if GRRM end up not finishing his books, I would feel cheated with the money he took from me, especially now that his first concern is the prequels and not winds anymore. He took my money and now he is ok with it, he got his due and got rich of it and goes to the next project.
      And the thing is, if he would be a dutch-writer. He could have been dragged to court for this. We have some laws stated (that count for every profession), that a project you start, you need to finish for you costumer. He could have been forced to finish his first project first before he could work on the prequels. Costumers are well protected in our country. And most publishers in our country when you go to them for writing a story that contains 2 books or more, you get a clause in it, that you can’t work for another “boss”/publisher/TV/Movie etc until the project your working on is finished. How that works I don’t know. But our country finds customer more important than the one deliver it. And a writer of a saga couldn’t work on side project until his saga is finished. Our publishers first concern is the reader, not the writer, because the writer gets his money, and the costumer pays for it.

        Quote  Reply

    283. Adrianacandle,

      Of course they had. They could just have a story-pace of the first 4 seasons. (4 was the slowest of them all, but the fan-favorite because we got to zoom in on every character moment). They decided to cut SoS into 2 books because it was better for the characters, their concern was the characters not the plot. With Feast and Dance they decided with, the plot needs to get moving, not what was needed for the characters. Look at Jon snow journey beyond the wall, took 2 years. In season 5 that needed to happen in 2 episodes.
      And explaining Jeyne play’s fake Arya could be told in just 1 scene of max 3 minutes. Theon’s story would be shorter because it would not concern the bounding with Sansa and all those scene. The focus would be different. With Sansa if she would have gotten her book counterpart it would have given a storyline of 25/30 minutes. Brienne needs to get her own storyline, which could be like season 4. Around 20 minutes. Theon could also be shorter, and have a different focus, and let the Jeyne story in season 6. (My project has it in season 6 probably).

      I still think it could be done. But it would have taken a lot more time writing because of the multiple storylines. They wrote season 5 in around 10 weeks max. With deciding the Storylines and what could happen per episode etc. But to bring a perfect adaption of those 2 books, that is a lot of puzzling, meaning that probably double the time is needed at least to bring the perfect adaption to the table. That’s why I still understand D&D with the timeframe they were in.

      And yes that about the cartoons. They could change the face a bit, and the talking is more realistic. And our imagination can work the magic. With the newer version the imagination is gone.

        Quote  Reply

    284. Ten Bears,

      Beautiful color. That was the color of the Tyrion-bird we had. The female was green/yellow.

      Ten Bears,

      Damn that would have been a brilliant way to deal with it. And combine those story-lines, and perfectly in line with the books, she would have gotten the Manderly storyline. She could have played the victim with Ramsay, but at the same time the smart one which takes out Ramsay with poison.
      But one problem, the show needed at least one big battle every season. (Personally I wished we got the Meereen battle of the books, damn that would have been awesome)

      Dame of Mercia,

      That sounds like a great charity. Especially that they look which cat match the best with you. They probably know all the personalities of the cats they have.

        Quote  Reply

    285. kevin1989,

      I still have faith that we will get them one day, and if not, someone will release the unfinished manuscripts 30 years from now, like the Tolkien estate (unless he legally prevents it). The other week, Brandon Sanderson announced on Twitter that he was 2/3 of the way through his latest novel, how cool is that? An actual real life update for the fans. I imagine GRRM is about 1/4 of the way through Winds.

        Quote  Reply

    286. kevin1989,

      If we are talking birds, I have to mention my Bob, he is a cockatiel and is now over 20, I actually can’t remember how old I was when I had him, I want to say 10/11 and that would make him 22. He’s an old man now, I’m actually really suspicious about him, he hasn’t come out of his cage in months because he lost the ability to fly, either he can’t see or he isn’t strong enough because he kept clattering to the floor and had to be rescued. He stays in his cage now, I’m convinced he’s on his way out, I’ll be gutted, I’ve had him for so long. 25 is max age in captivity.

        Quote  Reply

    287. Jenny,

      I like that. That he does that. Well I don’t mind if GRRM doesn’t finish it himself. I prefer it, the man is amazing when writing books. But else I hope he finds somebody who can help him with it. He could just write a written synopsis for every single chapter he wants to write and give it to one writer he trusts. But still I have faith GRRM will release them all.

      But I think GRRM has problems with saying how far he is. He writes per character. And once he is finished he writes another 200/300 pages for his next book to make sure his “endings” are as they should. Most of the time he switch a couple of chapters from one book to the next. So if he states I’m halfway through that means he has written half winds + 100/150 pages.

      As for how far I think he is, I think he is around 75% of the book. I think he finished a couple of characters he finds easy to write. He already finished his Dance chapters in 2011. But he is stuck with the last parts. But I wish he would give an update on it. The only update he has given that both the rumors he is finished and that he hasn’t written a single page (outside the Dance chapters) are both wrong.

      Jenny,

      Does he still give affection. And I hope he still feels happy and loved.

        Quote  Reply