George R. R. Martin Gives Meaty Update on The Winds of Winter

George R.R. Martin

Calling all Game of Thrones fans and A Song of Ice and Fire fans: He’s done it! The Maestro has done it! George R. R. Martin has completed(!!!)…a blog post detailing his latest updates on the definitely-not-yet-complete but hopefully-further-along-than-it-was-prior-to-quarantine The Winds of Winter. Its predecessor A Dance with Dragons came out NINE years ago next month. Yes, readers, that is correct. Understandably, fans have been getting a little antsy for good news, what with the state of the world in constant flux and all. Hopefully, George’s latest post is a welcome relief of stress. Rest assured that he is, as ever, working, on it. How much so? Let’s check out what he says.

“I finished a new chapter yesterday, another one three days ago, another one the previous week. But no, this does not mean that the book will be finished tomorrow or published next week. It’s going to be a huge book, and I still have a long way to go.”

Oh, do you? Still a long way to go? How many ‘ways’ to go are we talking? 10 pages? 100 pages? 600 pages? We’ll never know! But one thing is clear. He would like those many websites speculating on his progress to simply stop. Martin says, “Please do not give any credence to any of the click-bait websites that like to parse every word of my posts as if they were papal encyclicals to divine hidden meanings.” Given the article I’m writing here, I’d hate for my name to show up on one of those lists. So I’ll make it clear that this is not speculating. Just commenting. And observing. And adding my thoughts. Is that speculating? Dammit.

With CoNZealand canceled, George’s plans to go there fell through, which means more time to rush and get the book out this year…right? “I can always visit Wellington next year, when I hope that both Covid-19 and THE WINDS OF WINTER will be done.” Next year?! Isn’t that what he said last year? Now, remember that we’re in a different place than we were in 2011 when the last book came out. Back then, we were only one season in to what would soon become the biggest show on the face of the planet. Now that the show is over, and everyone all over the Internet loved the ending unreservedly, we’re past all the hype. And yet, the fates of certain characters in the book are still in question.

Will their journeys unfold and conclude the way of the show? Will TV show conclusions that frustrated longtime fans conclude the same way or even similarly in the book? Will Stannis eat it? These are very important questions. One thing’s for sure – George is working on it: “Of late I have been visiting with Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah. I will be dropping back into Braavos next week. I have bad days, which get me down, and good days, which lift me up, but all in all I am pleased with the way things are doing.” We are thrilled that you are pleased. Now, we would also like to be pleased, so please please your way into the published pile!

But I digress. I know he’s working on it. And as someone who has at most written a short story two pages long, the last time of which was probably in 5th grade, I am definitely not one to speak or even rush him. I’d rather it take a long time and be good than be rushed and be bad. The only question is, how long will it take? “I do wish they would go faster, of course. Way way back in 1999, when I was deep in the writing of A STORM OF SWORDS, I was averaging about 150 pages of manuscript a month. I fear I shall never recapture that pace again. Looking back, I am not sure how I did it then. A fever indeed.”

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So what can I say? He’s working on it, and it will be completed at his own pace.  For the hot goss on what else George is up to in quarantine, including, but not limited to his latest book recommendations, check out his original post.

721 Comments

  1. IMO, there’s really no purpose in giving an update at this point. It’s either done or it’s not.

    Updates are just going to provoke nerd rage. Stop with the updates until it’s done.

  2. “Please do not give any credence to any of the click-bait websites that like to parse every word of my posts as if they were papal encyclicals to divine hidden meanings.”

    And yet.. that’s exactly what this article title is, not to mention the opening sentence 🤨

  3. Apollo:
    “Please do not give any credence to any of the click-bait websites that like to parse every word of my posts as if they were papal encyclicals to divine hidden meanings.”

    And yet.. that’s exactly what this article title is, not to mention the openingsentence 🤨

    Yea, I have to admit I’m surprised how click-baity this is.

  4. One can only hope.

    Ser Barristan (Selmy!) lives! Last we read, he was shouting “Sound the attack!” as infected corpses rained down upon his knights and soldiers, crazed dragons razed the city, and the battle of Meereen kicked into full gear.

    (hope)

  5. Apollo:
    “Please do not give any credence to any of the click-bait websites that like to parse every word of my posts as if they were papal encyclicals to divine hidden meanings.”

    And yet.. that’s exactly what this article title is, not to mention the openingsentence 🤨

    This author can only hope you read the entire article making fun of internet culture before jumping to conclusions assuming he induced “clickbait.”

  6. so was anyone else disappointed that GRRM wasn’t working on Arya’s scenes? He did say he will get back to Braavos next week..

    “George is working on it: “Of late I have been visiting with Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah. I will be dropping back into Braavos next week.”

    So does that mean that Arya is still in Braavos? Hopefully she has a major journey in Braavos to accomplish in the 1000 pages of TWOW. I’m hoping Braavos won’t be Arya’s Meereen (as it was for Dany in ADWD). I suppose it could be Iron Bank drama.

    At least he is writing chapters. So I think that’s good news. Hopefully his publisher won’t make him split TWOW into two books again like the last time. Just publish one 1000 page book instead of screwing things up again by splitting them…

  7. Tron79:
    so was anyone else disappointed that GRRM wasn’t working on Arya’s scenes?He did say he will get back to Braavos next week..

    “George is working on it: “Of late I have been visiting with Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah. I will be dropping back into Braavos next week.”

    So does that mean that Arya is still in Braavos?Hopefully she has a major journey in Braavos to accomplish in the 1000 pages of TWOW.I’m hoping Braavos won’t be Arya’s Meereen (as it was for Dany in ADWD). I suppose it could be Iron Bank drama.

    At least he is writing chapters.So I think that’s good news.Hopefully his publisher won’t make him split TWOW into two books again like the last time. Just publish one 1000 page book instead of screwing things up again by splitting them…

    In the last line of his blog post, he does mention Arya is calling 😉

    I agree, it’s good GRRM is writing chapters but I’m admittedly still more wary than hopeful at this point ^^;

  8. Adrianacandle,

    Yes I agree. I should have said one two thousand page book. I think it likely it could be 1500. I said awhile back I calculated at least 3000 pages to finish the story. Anyhow I am glad to hear that Arya was calling to him.

  9. Tron79: Yes I agree. I should have said one two thousand page book. I think it likely it could be 1500. I said awhile back I calculated at least 3000 pages to finish the story. Anyhow I am glad to hear that Arya was calling to him.

    Maybe that would be an interesting draw — guess how many pages TWOW will be? 🙂 To the digit!

    This part from his post made me laugh imagining the long emails he gets in response to the stuff he posts:

    So far, no rats at my cabin. Sid did catch a couple of mice last year, but she made pets of them. And Timmy and TomTom were no help whatsoever with WINDS. (Please don’t send me long emails about the dangers of mice, we know all that stuff).

  10. This is slightly more detailed than his former blog posts, but only slightly. As expected, we’re not seeing Winds any time soon, or ever. I’m disappointed, but only for those who are actually excited about reading it. I was perfectly satisfied with the show’s ending and accept that it will most likely be the only ending we ever get.

  11. Tron79: Ok. I want some of those GOT Oreos if I win. Perhaps Ten Bears still has a few he can spare.

    Oooh, that’d be a nice prize! (Although, if Ten Bears is anything like me, an Oreo would barely last 12 hours).

  12. Hodors Bastard:
    One can only hope.

    …. Last we read, he was shouting “Sound the attack!” as infected corpses rained down upon his knights and soldiers, crazed dragons razed the city, and the battle of Meereen kicked into full gear…

    Wait. Is that a review of the Tulsa rally?

  13. Tron79:
    so was anyone else disappointed that GRRM wasn’t working on Arya’s scenes? He did say he will get back to Braavos next week..

    “George is working on it: “Of late I have been visiting with Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah. I will be dropping back into Braavos next week.”

    So does that mean that Arya is still in Braavos?Hopefully she has a major journey in Braavos to accomplish in the 1000 pages of TWOW. I’m hoping Braavos won’t be Arya’s Meereen (as it was for Dany in ADWD). I suppose it could be Iron Bank drama…

    As someone who has only read the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter, I took that as

    Arya’s farewell to Braavos. Her last internal monologue thoughts made it sound like she was going to miss all of her theatre troupe friends. Unless, of course, like on the show, the FM punish her and give her a second chance…

    What do you think? Has our girl worn out her welcome in Braavos?

  14. Tron79,

    ”At least he is writing chapters. So I think that’s good news. Hopefully his publisher won’t make him split TWOW into two books again like the last time. Just publish one 1000 page book instead of screwing things up again by splitting them…”

    I still say he should release what he’s writing in serialized form, e.g., a chapter at a time, like Charles Dickens. Fans would gladly subscribe.

  15. Adrianacandle: Oooh, that’d be a nice prize! (Although, if Ten Bears is anything like me, an Oreo would barely last 12 hours).

    I must confess. I scarfed down the GoT Oreos several months ago. I didn’t intend to. They were in my GoT memorabilia drawer. I just went on a feeding frenzy one night…and they were gone.

    I did send a few packages to friends as gifts. Even if they still have them, I suppose it would be tacky to ask to buy them back…

    P.S. They weren’t that great anyway. I’d rather spend my money on more GoT Royal Mail stamps if they’re still being sold.

  16. Ten Bears,

    Ohhhh, I think this line

    “Now you will have to excuse me. Arya is calling. I think she means to kill someone.”

    is a wink-wink to you, TB!

  17. Ten Bears: I did send a few packages to friends as gifts. Even if they still have them, I suppose it would be tacky to ask to buy them back…

    P.S. They weren’t that great anyway. I’d rather spend my money on more GoT Royal Mail stamps if they’re still being sold.

    I did look on eBay and they’re still available there! I am a total sucker for that Oreo taste (it’s my favourite Dairy Queen blizzard and McFlurry flavour apart from Skor) so I doubt I’d have the strength to send a few packages to friends — even very very very very very good friends 😉 So that was very very very very nice of you!!

    (I also have a GoT Royal Mail stamp set – Jon Snow!)

  18. I wish we had more on the method of writing. If I were a journalist, I’d ask him about that.
    We know that he immerses in the world for being able to write, so distractions don’t help. But does he write his characters from beginning to end in a book, or stops at a good point of the story to come back later, or does he finish the chapters and then gets into another PoV?
    He says he had been visiting with “Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah”, does that mean that he finished Brienne, Jamie, Jon, Theon, Daenerys, Sansa?

    I know he wouldn’t want to answer such questions, but I’m really curious about the method, considering that I haven’t read any other book were structure is so careful, embroidering information in it is so meticulous, symbolism permeats the text from page 1 to the very last (a headache!) and words are chosen tortuously considering that none is there by chance.

    On the speculation level, a chapter per week is a good pace, because chapters can be very long (twenty or even thirty pages, depends on the character and the narrative). Very few chapters are less than that. Tyrion’s, Jon’s and Daenerys’ chapters tend to be the longest, and from his post it seems he’s not over with Tyrion. On the other hand, Areo and Barristan and Asha have very few chapters, and not that long.
    If the book is about two thousand pages (I suppose that’s where it’s going) then to have the book ready in a year (he started sometime last autumn) he’d need to write about forty pages a week, which would bring him a over his own pace in ASoS. That’s exhausting for an author even if one writes the first thing that pops up in his head!

    So all in all, yes, it seems that he’s in a good place, even if that means twenty pages per week. Not all chapters need a week to finish, which allows time for two a week, if he has “good days”.

    Keep up the good work, George! We’re not going anywhere, anyway…

    But we can make our fanfic, can’t we?
    How about speculating on our own preferred ending?

    Or, how about who is it that Arya kills next?

  19. Efi,

    But does he write his characters from beginning to end in a book, or stops at a good point of the story to come back later, or does he finish the chapters and then gets into another PoV?

    He says he had been visiting with “Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah”, does that mean that he finished Brienne, Jamie, Jon, Theon, Daenerys, Sansa?

    Somebody mentioned on asoiaf that he doesn’t write chronologically (and from what little I’ve gathered, I think that might be true) so he might be writing chapters he’s feeling at the time? I know he’s mentioned having to get into certain head spaces for characters so it could be dependent on that — what headspace he can get into on any given day…?

    If the book is about two thousand pages (I suppose that’s where it’s going) […]

    Care to make a guess? 😀 Tron’s is 1506, mine is 1542!

  20. Efi:
    Ten Bears,

    Ohhhh, I think this line

    “Now you will have to excuse me. Arya is calling. I think she means to kill someone.”

    is a wink-wink to you, TB!

    Well good! I hope Arya is roaming around Big G’s Brain. It’s time she snuffs out a[nother] bad guy and hightails it out of Braavos.

    I loved Mercy/Arya’s final scene in the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter.

    If Big G can pick up where he left off writing Arya, he’ll do just fine.

    Hey, I know he was toying with a five-year gap at one point before ditching it. Perhaps he should revisit that idea in light of all the time that’s passed since his last book. (Nine years ago, isn’t it?) Age up Arya five or ten years, and Maisie can star in the sequel as soon as G publishes the next book and a motivated screenwriter adapts it for TV.

    “The Continuing Adventures of Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess.” ™️

    ™️ talvikorppi (2018)
    ©️ HBO 2022

  21. Efi,

    ” But we can make our fanfic, can’t we?
    How about speculating on our own preferred ending?

    Or, how about who is it that Arya kills next?”

    Ooh! Ooh! Can I play?

    Let’s see…
    Well she just

    exsanguinated that Raff jerkoff and fed him to the canal eels, so maybe his fellow guard will come looking for him and Arya will have to terminate him too. Or better yet, the visiting emissary from KL (Master of Coin?) they were guarding.

    Wouldn’t that be fun? Lannister Secretary of the Treasury travels to Braavos to secure financing from Iron Bank. Returns with no head and no gold.

  22. Adrianacandle,

    ”I also have a GoT Royal Mail stamp set – Jon Snow!)”

    I think I may have mentioned once that I make my own Arya and Sandor “stamps” with a color printer and address labels. I don’t counterfeit the Royal Mail stamps; they’re not good for postage in the U.S. anyway.

    And that was an epic fail by the U.S. Postal Service: The USPS issued Star Wars stamps about twenty years ago. It often jointly issues stamps with other countries, e.g., Greta Garbo stamps with Sweden and fairly recently (I think) hockey stamps with Canada.

    How could USPS not issue GoT stamps??? They would have sold like hot cakes!

  23. Ten Bears,

    I think I may have mentioned once that I make my own Arya and Sandor “stamps” with a color printer and address labels. I don’t counterfeit the Royal Mail stamps; they’re not good for postage in the U.S. anyway.

    I think that’d be beautiful 🙂 One of the reasons I splurged for stamps I know I would/could never use to send mail was because I thought the design of each was so pretty. Ideally, I’d get them all but I had to settle for just one set 🙁

    And that was an epic fail by the U.S. Postal Service: The USPS issued Star Wars stamps about twenty years ago. It often jointly issues stamps with other countries, e.g., Greta Garbo stamps with Sweden and fairly recently (I think) hockey stamps with Canada.

    Yeah, that sounds about right with the hockey stamps! I would have loved if USPS issued their own GoT stamps too 🙁 I also really love stamp designs — the challenge of designing artwork for a ≈25 mm x 25 mm space, I love seeing what different designers/companies do with this tiny art board 🙂

  24. Efi,

    We know for a variety of reasons that he jumps from character to character: in particular, his different updates at different times document this.

    He’s been pretty open about his methods, too. It’s not just that he immerses himself: but he’s also working towards particular endings for the overall plot and the individual character arches. He’s known for nearly decades what endings Daenerys, Jon, Bran, Arya and Tyrion have: it’s the details of getting them there on which he works. (He’s obviously added numerous 2ndary protagonists since then: he’s never discussed how quickly their endings were cemented in his heads.)

    Of course, this might be one of the delays at this point. The world is and was, to put it mildly, highly unimpressed with how the show ended. GRRM has made it pretty clear that that was the ending he has had in mind: the “differences” that he’s promising are that minor characters cut by the show (or that got killed off early) might be around. Moreover, at this point, it is much, much too late to have anything more than cosmetic differences between his intended ending and his final one: after all, he wrote the first 5 books with that ending (those endings) in mind.

    My suspicion is that the TV series revealed another reason why it’s taken GRRM so long. Given the nature of the story, he clearly wants some “Catch-22” of the sort that Straczynski had for Babylon 5. Fans have been speculating about what that might be since the late 90’s at least. (And possibly earlier: but that is when I first partook in such online discussions!) And then the show delivered…. nothing. There is always the conspiracy theory “he withheld the choice bits for his books” but that means both that Martin has been lying to us and that Martin was very foolish: after all, even if he finishes the last book, then the show will still be the only way that most people ever witness his story. This is consistent with the idea that either his initial ideas didn’t work once he thought them through clearly or that he never really nailed down a good “gotcha!” for this. (I do think that the entire “Scouring of the Shire” calamity might have been more tolerable if there had been that Faulkneresque “We’re boned either way” lynchpin story-moment at the climax of Walkers plot line.)

    At any rate, I fully expect that I’ll make my annual “When are we getting our apology for no book this year?” in January 2022! (Of course, given how infrequently I visit this site anymore, and given how completely GoT has disappeared from general entertainment news, it’s entirely possible that one year I will make that post and then have someone point out that it actually came out already.)

  25. There were obviously things GRRM should have done differently over the past decade that would have resulted in ASOIAF already being wrapped up. But at least GRRM has confirmed that he’s forging ahead as best as he can. So that’s great news. Onward!

    Efi,

    How about speculating on our own preferred ending?

    Okay, based on some real-life world history along with more realistic storyline pacing:

    + Jorah survives the Battle of Winterfell and is present during the subsequent attack on KL.

    + Dany originally torches only the Red Keep.

    + Jaime strangles Cersei as a mercy killing (and turns out to be the prophecised Valonqar) in order to save her from an excruciating death-by-fire, shortly before Dany incinerates both of them at point-blank range.

    + Tyrion later finds only Jaime’s half-melted gold hand, buried amongst his siblings’ ashes.

    + Dany does not initially target KL’s civilian population, but her rule is heavy-handed and has a zero-tolerance attitude towards perceived threats.

    + Dany’s forces — especially the Unsullied — engage in an increasingly brutal and oppressive military occupation of KL. The other lords across Westeros observe events with mounting alarm, especially as Dany exhibits an increasingly high-handed “imperial” attitude towards them too.

    + There are repeated incidents of Dothraki raping women in KL and nearby areas. Dany is either unwilling or unable to stop this.

    + Some of KL’s population attempt to retaliate against the occupying forces, resulting in escalating tit-for-tat violence and eventually the murder of a number of the Unsullied and Dothraki.

    + Dany decides to “teach the civilians a lesson” and publicly executes the culprits. Perhaps this involves Dany deliberately crucifying them and then burning them as “human torches”, Nero-style. She also randomly crucifies & burns a number of other civilians in order to “send a message”.

    + Dany is becoming impervious to Jon, Tyrion and Jorah’s objections. She also reminds them of Lady Olenna’s advice to “Be a dragon”.

    + Some of KL’s civilians — possibly also surviving Lannister soldiers — decide to launch an outright rebellion. It takes a while for the conspiracy to unfold, but they try to assassinate Dany by igniting the Mad King’s stores of wildfire near/beneath wherever Dany normally holds court.

    + Dany survives the attack, but Grey Worm is wounded (not mortally), a number of his officers are killed, Jon is caught in the explosion but “mysteriously” does not suffer any burns, and Jorah is killed while trying to shield Dany with his body.

    + *This* is what finally convinces a griefstricken, enraged Dany to pull the trigger. She overrides Jon and Tyrion’s objections and proceeds to nuke KL.

    + The other lords of Westeros also realise this is what awaits them and their populations if Dany ever decides to “teach them a lesson” too. They find ways to make their concerns clear to Jon.

    + For her part, Dany also makes it clear that she now has no problem nuking cities across the rest of the world during a planned campaign of global conquest if she perceives any targets to be “rebellious” or “refusing to bend the knee”.

    + Jon’s agonising over whether to kill Dany is also partly driven by his own experience of death; as someone who was resurrected but found there to be no afterlife whatsoever for humans, he knows more than anyone else that he will be literally wiping Dany out of existence if he kills her.

    The rest of the story happens as on the show, except with better dialogue, more nuanced debating between Jon and Tyrion, and definitely a much better speech from Tyrion explaining why Bran should be elected king.

  26. Jai,

    […]a number of his officers are killed, Jon is caught in the explosion but “mysteriously” does not suffer any burns[…]

    In the books, I don’t think Targaryens are immune to fire — the funeral pyre during which Dany hatches her dragons was a one-time magical thing. Jon has already burned his hand when he grabbed a lamp to throw at a wight while Dany, herself, burned her hand wrenching a burning hot spear out of Drogon. So I think Jon would be toast in that scenario.

    GRRM from So Spake Martin, November 5, 1998:

    Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born — which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times.

    This snippet from a March 18 1999 chat transcript linked from a 1999 So Spake Martin on westeros.org:

    Granny: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they “bond” to their dragons?

    George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany’s dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn’t immune to that molten gold.

    For my part, I’m hoping Dany’s actions and choices are more nuanced and conflicted in the books. Likewise, I’m hoping the Bran as king thing is better set-up and not entirely dependent on a single speech :/

  27. So what he means to say is that the book will definitely be finished by 2023…well actually, 2024…well more than likely 2025-26… surely no later than 2027…

  28. Jai,

    I don’t really like the theory that Jaime will kill Cersei, because it seems to me that Jaime will be throwing his crimes under Cersei’s feet, blaming her for everything he’s done, but I can get behind it if it’s a mercy killing.

    I also like your idea regarding Danerys, but I don’t think it’s necessary. That would be extending the story for no reason. The set up for Danerys torching King’s Landing was already there, no need to drag it out. I feel that one of Martin’s problems in his later books is that he spends too much time on build up, not enough time on payoff.

    I disagree with you on the dialogue. It’s some of the best television has to offer. There’s a reason D&D received an Emmy nomination for Best Writing. In Season 8, we had Jon and Arya’s reunion, Brienne’s knighting, Podrick’s song, Arya and the Hound on the parapets of Winterfell, Sam finding out about his father and brother, Jon finding out about his parentage, Jon telling Danerys about his parentage, Arya and Melisandre reunite, Jon’s eulogy, Jaime says farewell to Brienne, Danerys begs Jon not to tell anyone about his parentage, Stark family meeting, Tyrion and Varys talk about loyalty, Tyrion pleads with Cersei to surrender, Tyrion turns Varys in, Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime, the Hound says goodbye to Arya, Dany’s victory speech, Tyrion quitting as Dany’s Hand, Tyrion’s speech to Jon why he should kill her, Jon talking to Danerys in the throne room, Tyrion tells Jon his sentence, Jon says goodbye to his family, among many others.

    Jon and Tyrion’s conversation was among the best scenes the show has to offer.

    I didn’t hate Tyrion’s speech regarding Bran, but I understand why others do. That wasn’t the point of that scene for me. It was the formation of a new system of government that will progress Westeros into the future.

  29. Jai: Jaime strangles Cersei as a mercy killing (and turns out to be the prophecised Valonqar) in order to save her from an excruciating death-by-fire, shortly before Dany incinerates both of them at point-blank range.

    I think the idea of Valonqar occurring to save Cersei in some form is a neat twist but I don’t think strangulation really fits the bill of mercy killing because it’s such a brutal, literally (sorry TB!) hands-on way of killing. With strangulation, you feel somebody choke to death under your palms for a prolonged period of time and the killer is required to keep that pressure for this period of time. It’s not a fast, sharp arrow/knife to the heart, a gunshot to the head, or even a pillow on the face. Strangling goes beyond that, I think.

    But is a cool twist though 🙂

  30. Ten Bears,

    Isn’t he already in Braavos with Raff? She’s not going to kill him, he’s Tyrell. Besides, and he’s not on the list and I suppose that the episode Martin is referring to is mid-book?
    My guess is

    Trant. Refugees from KL arrive at Braavos after KL has been taken by Aegon and Arianne. It’s Cersei and her sweet escorts, Trant, the Kettleblacks. Arya doesn’t know the Kettle idiots (LF’s men) but she knows the rest of them. She kills Trant but she fails to kill Cersei. When Cersei departs for the Riverlands, with Casterly Rock as her ultimate destination and her chests full of the Iron Bank’s gold, Arya decides to leave The House of Black and White. She has learned from them that the North has been re-gained for the Starks by Jon, Sansa and Stannis.
  31. Okay, first of all, THANK YOU David for such a fun and insightful article, it had me in stitches the whole way through, such a witty writing!

    And, let’s be honest, did anyone truly expect George to finish TWOW this year? Well, me tbh, but I will dramatically cry in a corner for an hour and get on with my “life”.

    I feel sad for George though, he must be very frustrated with his book, he is such a perfectionist that he will melt his brains thinking and programming and rewrite half a book if necessary just to give us the best he can, and I respect that.

    Do I want the book to be realised as soon as possible? SURE but I also want him to be in a good health, both mentally and physically, and the books will be finished, some day.

    when will that day come? I’m not entirely sure but what I do know is that I’ll be waiting as long as it takes, unless there is another awful pandemic, a Third World War or the world Explotes, because given the year that we have been having…

  32. As expected, another TWOW “update” like countless others in past years. Well to be honest, I pretty much forgot this book needs to be released in first place so it’s not really a difference for me 😂

  33. Wimsey,

    I don’t think that Martin withheld anything of importance from the producers. From what we know it’s not like he gave it to them in bulletpoints, they visited his house and stayed there for days, so they had lots of details and they discussed it through. But I do believe that at some point the show story diverged significantly since there’s the avalanche effect and since, and they have said it themselves, “they made the story their own”. And as I understand, Martin was at peace with that because he’s very experienced with TV and how it works and because this way he gets to guard some of his secrets for the book.

    For example, they kept Beric alive with the particular purpose to save Arya in the battle of the Dawn and made use of the early Arya-Melisandre scene in 8.3 which does not exist in the books. Arya kills the NK, but perhaps there will be no NK in the book either. This might imply that she kills someone else of equal importance. Cersei, or even Daenerys. And leaving Westeros for exploring? No way. In the chapter I was reading yesterday she contemplates that Braavos is not her home. Home is Winterfell. Arya is homesick, she won’t leave WF once she returns to it. She contemplates that her pack is dead; she has no brothers, she has no sisters. How will she leave them as soon as she finds them again? Not to mention that Arya, unlike other characters in the book (Tyrion, Bran), has no curiosity about the rest of the world. Braavos becomes her univerisity and she studies people, not places; she doesn’t want to see Asshai or sail through Valyria and doesn’t ever wonder “what’s west of Westeros”.

    So the show ending for Arya is significantly different from what book Arya is showing us. If they did that for Arya, who is a main, why would I believe that they didn’t do it for the other characters? The producers made choices for the ending that left much of the audience less than happy. I can believe that the broad strokes are there, as has been stated; this means that the Starks rule everything (which is turning the story on its head), Daenerys and Cersei are dead, Westeros is utterly destroyed shore to shore (which didn’t become clear in the show). But the rest? Imo there will be great differences even if Jon is exiled and Bran sits the IT. The show messed up the messages because de-characterization of the mains started veeeery early, but characterization in the books is very consistent.
    As you said, if there is a motive for Martin to write, it’s this, that the show left the audience with the feeling that saving the world is futile since you’ll be condemned by the establishment and damned by the gods, if you’re a savage criminal you’ll pay community service while actually getting to rule and Big Brother surveillance solely secures stability, if you’re a woman you can’t have both family and power, if you’re a misfit there’s no place for you so you must roam the world as an explorer.
    Whaaaaat? Is that the message? Eight seasons were all for this? I somehow doubt it. The ending may very well be the same (apart from Arya, because she’s too young in the books) but Martin will bring it about sweetly, even if its bitter.
    If we ever get that book ending though, I guess that it will become a nice trilogy or even tetralogy on the big screen within a decade of the publication of ADoS, so the non-book readers will get it. [I wish it would be Christopher Nolan to direct it]
    If ever….

  34. Efi,

    1658 of rather 1858.
    There’s lots of plots there!

    I’m hoping for a longer book myself! 🙂

    So the show ending for Arya is significantly different from what book Arya is showing us. If they did that for Arya, who is a main, why would I believe that they didn’t do it for the other characters?

    I don’t think this is evidence that the book ending for Arya will be significantly different (or other select mains). Arya leaving Westeros may be set up differently in the books — especially if Westeros becomes a significant source of pain for Arya or there’s a specific reason she’s sailing away. There might be another compelling reason for Arya to want to leave Westeros (at least for a time, maybe not forever).

    Arya has also felt restless and occupied an outsider role in Winterfell where she feels she didn’t quite fit in. She misses her family, of course, and they’ve become even more precious in hindsight but I don’t know if this alone is enough to keep her tied to Winterfell forever in a role she may not feel satisfied in or in a place that may have become too painful to be in considering all of her experiences — and there are at least two more books to go still, during which I think things will get even harder.

    The producers made choices for the ending that left much of the audience less than happy. I can believe that the broad strokes are there, as has been stated; this means that the Starks rule everything (which is turning the story on its head), Daenerys and Cersei are dead, Westeros is utterly destroyed shore to shore (which didn’t become clear in the show). But the rest? Imo there will be great differences even if Jon is exiled and Bran sits the IT. The show messed up the messages because de-characterization of the mains started veeeery early, but characterization in the books is very consistent.

    There are some things that I don’t think were set up all that well but I don’t think the endings for the mains (including Arya) were simply coming from the producers of the show. The unpopularity of these endings does more to convince me personally that they were coming from GRRM because D&D were making some very unpopular choices here. To me, it sort of feels like picking and choosing to say Arya’s end will be significantly different (and perhaps the endings for other mains) while the Starks ruling everything and Cersei and Dany dying will be the same.

    I think the show had some of the basic concepts down, concepts I think that will exist in the show too, but I’d say the execution was lacking.

    As [Wimsey] said, if there is a motive for Martin to write, it’s this, that the show left the audience with the feeling that saving the world is futile since you’ll be condemned by the establishment and damned by the gods, if you’re a savage criminal you’ll pay community service while actually getting to rule and Big Brother surveillance solely secures stability, if you’re a woman you can’t have both family and power, if you’re a misfit there’s no place for you so you must roam the world as an explorer.

    I don’t think these are the messages per say but more how some very unhappy viewers are taking the endings to these arcs. The set-up for these same endings may be different in the books and that might make all the difference in reception — or not. Over the past 20+ years, especially with the show resulting in this series becoming even more popular, people have become very attached to specific characters (and have come to hate other characters in equal measure) and I think that’s what makes some of this stuff difficult. A fan’s view of what is an appropriate ending for a character may not be the author’s view. One person’s sweet may be another person’s bitter.

    However, even when saving the world, there are consequences to choices and that’s a very Martin thing to implement and explore in-universe. One might not be rewarded for saving the world but subject to the consequences of the actions it took to get there (something Jeor tells Jon in ACOK).

    I don’t think Arya is leaving because she’s a misfit. I think it’s more that she wants to explore new lands and may not feel there is a role that is suited to her in Winterfell or Westeros (that’s the impression I got). Sansa can start a family if that’s what she wants — Ned, too, was left alone in Winterfell after the deaths of his father, older brother, and younger sister while Benjen left for the Wall. However, he was able to create his own family.

    The ending may very well be the same (apart from Arya, because she’s too young in the books) but Martin will bring it about sweetly, even if its bitter.

    I don’t know if Arya would be too young at approx. 13-15 (by ADOS) in ASOIAF, not with the experiences she’s garnered already. Kids can rule at younger ages, 12-13 year olds can be married off and made leaders in their clans. I think 13-15 would be acceptable, I’d say.

  35. Efi,

    Good point. in case of writing style, I remember George mentioned in one of his interviews that he starts with a character and writes his/her chapters one by one to the end, then goes to meet another character. moreover he does a lot of editing and rewriting. that’s one of the main reasons in my opinion that takes him too long to finish books. I believe he mentioned that he wrote 3 different stories for Quentyn on his journey to meereen, chronologically.
    as for number of book pages, martin has always mentioned that TWOW will be a very large book and probably 1500 pages of manuscript. but manuscript pages are different that published book pages. ASOS, I believe was almost 1500 pages of manuscript, but only 100 pages of book. So we can expect that we will get an approximately a 1000 page of a book.

  36. Adrianacandle: I think the idea of Valonqar occurring to save Cersei in some form is a neat twist but I don’t think strangulation really fits the bill of mercy killing because it’s such a brutal, literally (sorry TB!) hands-on way of killing. With strangulation, you feel somebody choke to death under your palms for a prolonged period of time and the killer is required to keep that pressure for this period of time. It’s not a fast, sharp arrow/knife to the heart, a gunshot to the head, or even a pillow on the face. Strangling goes beyond that, I think.

    But is a cool twist though 🙂

    • No need to apologize! You used “literally” correctly AND made a nice pseudo-pun out of “hands-on.” 😏

    • Allow me to interject a re-whinge of mine: I still say Jaime cannot be the Valonqar because the prophecy says the little brother will wrap his hands (plural) around Cersei’s pale white throat, and Jaime only has one hand (singular). Counting a prosthetic golden hand would be cheating, especially since (on the show, at least) Jaime cannot use that inflexible prosthesis to hold a shovel or grip a sword. How would he be able to “wrap” it around someone’s throat and use it to “choke” the life out of that person?
    Jaime only has one hand. In my book, while he may have started out as a 3-1 favorite among the betting public, I have downgraded him to a long shot in the Valonqar Sweepstakes* – or in horse racing parlance, I predict a DNF (“Did Not Finish”).
    🐎
    I expect GRRM to fulfill the prophecy with a twist upon a twist: Cersei thinks it’s Tyrion; the reader suspects it’s really Jaime; and then GRRM ultimately reveals it’s someone else.
    * (I had elevated a dark horse candidate, Jon Snow aka little brother Aegon T, to the top of the field right before post time. However, I had based that wager on S6 and S7 of the show (including Jon + LF in WF crypts in S7e2), which did not fulfill my prediction in S8. 🤦🏻‍♂️ Mixing and matching show canon and book canon is probably not a good idea anyway, particularly since the show omitted the Valonqar prophecy from the Young Cersei visit to Magy the Frog in the S5 cold open.)

    • Good observation about slow, agonizing death by manual strangulation vs. quick, mercy killing methods. As one noted criminal justice scholar would describe the latter:

    Where’s the punishment in that? All over in an instant.”

    – Sandor Clegane, PhD

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvILT4w8mOM

    at 3:15

  37. Ten Bears,

    Allow me to interject a re-whinge of mine: I still say Jaime cannot be the Valonqar because the prophecy says the little brother will wrap his hands (plural) around Cersei’s pale white throat, and Jaime only has one hand (singular). Counting a prosthetic golden hand would be cheating, especially since (on the show, at least) Jaime cannot use that inflexible prosthesis to hold a shovel or grip a sword. How would he be able to “wrap” it around someone’s throat and use it to “choke” the life out of that person?

    Ooooh, that’s a good point — and one I keep forgetting (that Jaime only has one hand). Yeah, I don’t think it’d be possible for Jaime to choke Cersei to death with only the one hand. He’s not Wun-Wun (is Wun-Wun a little brother? 🙂 )

    I expect GRRM to fulfill the prophecy with a twist upon a twist: Cersei thinks it’s Tyrion; the reader suspects it’s really Jaime; and then GRRM ultimately reveals it’s someone else.

    Right, I don’t think it’s Tyrion for these reasons either — or Jaime for the reasons you brought up above. I think it’d be unexpected to have Jon fulfill this and this does make him a good dark horse candidate since he also fits the bill… but I also wonder, in light of the show’s ending, if that’d be assigning Jon too much to do. Jon does hate the Lannisters, yes, but I’m wondering if Volonquar needs to be somebody who has a more personal history with Cersei since the method of killing is so personal and agonizing?

    For that reason, I’ve often thought of Arya as Volonqar — but does she have the physical strength and size to strangle Cersei? Ditto for Dany. Both would fulfill the younger sibling bit but they are also both anatomically small, slender young girls without a ton of muscle and (I’d expect) small hands. I know Dany mercy-smothered Drogo with a pillow but that can be done with small hands and Drogo wasn’t fighting back since he was in a vegetative state.

    I’d speculate Brienne but she’s an only child.

    So I’m stumped with Volonqar :/

    (And thanks for the clip! XD)

  38. Adrianacandle,

    “…Arya leaving Westeros may be set up differently in the books — especially if Westeros becomes a significant source of pain for Arya or there’s a specific reason she’s sailing away.”

    Hmmm. Pondering if Arya will sail away
    Was that a subliminal suggestion to post Track #1 on my Arya Compilation Album (counterpart to final scene in S4e10 + final montage in S8e6)?

    ‘Cause I was going to dedicate today’s Musical Interlude to GRRM himself, in keeping with the theme of the post and comments below it.

  39. Ten Bears: Hmmm. Pondering if Arya will sail away…
    Was that a subliminal suggestion to post Track #1 on my Arya Compilation Album (counterpart to final scene in S4e10 + final montage in S8e6)?

    Yes, it was a subliminal suggestion since the song is now stuck in my head, replacing yesterday’s ‘Psycho Killer’ c/o Heroes 😉

    But I am curious as to what you selected for GRRM!

  40. Adrianacandle:
    Efi,
    […]I don’t think these are the messages per say but more how some very unhappy viewers are taking the endings to these arcs. The set-up for these same endings may be different in the books and that might make all the difference in reception — or not. Over the past 20+ years, especially with the show resulting in this series becoming even more popular, people have become very attached to specific characters (and have come to hate other characters in equal measure) and I think that’s what makes some of this stuff difficult. A fan’s view of what is an appropriate ending for a character may not be the author’s view. One person’s sweet may be another person’s bitter.[…]

    I should amend this part of my post to include that I also share some of these feelings that the ending felt personally a bit more on the nihilistic side to me (I was also a viewer who wasn’t over the moon about the ending of GoT) — but in perhaps different ways than Efi does. However, I don’t think these are messages that the show was trying to send — or even GRRM’s messages should he proceed with these endings. I think there’s a sense in several of the endings (for example, I think it’s realistic within the established laws and customs of Westeros and the ASOIAF universe that there will be consequences to queenslaying, kinslaying, and oath breaking on a social, spiritual, and personal level, thus the exile — even though I don’t love it), even if some are more bitter than I’d like, make me sad, and despite my reservations over how these conclusions came about.

    However, I think there was intent to mix in some hope (or peace or release) among the bitter.

  41. Adrianacandle,

    ”Jon does hate the Lannisters, yes, but I’m wondering if Volonquar needs to be somebody who has a more personal history with Cersei since the method of killing is so personal and agonizing?”

    That is why I had Sandor Clegane as 4:1 runner-up in early odds for the Valonqar Sweepstakes.
    He’s the little Clegane brother, and grew up right next to the Lannisters in Casterly Rock.

    Like my tinfoiling of Jon aka Aegon 2.0 as Valonqar, I could envision Cersei capturing or threatening Sansa or Arya, enraging Sandor so much that he would not hesitate to give Cersei a slow agonizing death once he got his hands on her.

    The only glitch (aside from show! Sandor allowing Cersei to skeedaddle right by him in S8e5, to my great disappointment), is that Sandor would probably be able to choke Cersei to death with one hand while drinking her wine and eating her lunch with the other. 🍷 🐓🐓

    (Cue Arya coaching Sandor by channeling Syrio: “One hand is all that is needed.”) 🙂

  42. Ten Bears: That is why I had Sandor Clegane as 4:1 runner-up in early odds for the Valonqar Sweepstakes.
    He’s the little Clegane brother, and grew up right next to the Lannisters in Casterly Rock.

    Like my tinfoiling of Jon aka Aegon 2.0 as Valonqar, I could envision Cersei capturing or threatening Sansa or Arya, enraging Sandor so much that he would not hesitate to give Cersei a slow agonizing death once he got his hands on her.

    The only glitch (aside from show! Sandor allowing Cersei to skeedaddle right by him in S8e5, to my great disappointment), is that Sandor would probably be able to choke Cersei to death with one hand while drinking her wine and eating her lunch with the other. 🍷 🐓🐓

    (Cue Arya coaching Sandor by channeling Syrio: “One hand is all that is needed.”) 🙂

    I’ve been mispelling ‘Valonqar’ :(!!!

    I’ve entertained the thought of Sandor being Valonqar too (and he’s a speculated candidate on the westeros.org wiki!). Cersei does view Sandor as a “traitor and a brute”, wanting him dead — but not for fear of him being the prophesized Valonqar but for the treason of desertion (although, Cersei publicly claims she dismissed him rather than admitting Sandor ditched Joffrey and King’s Landing) so I don’t think she’d entertain Sandor as a possibility. Sandor barely grazes her thoughts. I think that makes him a good candidate. Cersei wouldn’t see that coming with her thoughts focused on her own younger brother who hates her (and who she hates) — Tyrion 🙂

    The only glitch (aside from show! Sandor allowing Cersei to skeedaddle right by him in S8e5, to my great disappointment), is that Sandor would probably be able to choke Cersei to death with one hand while drinking her wine and eating her lunch with the other. 🍷 🐓🐓

    True, but I’m sure he’d make a concession just to be sure 😉

  43. Ten Bears,

    Yeah. I think the valonqar might be Arya. The prophecy says “the valonqar” not “your valonqar”. It’s all about protecting the family, and Cersei’s obsessed enough to want to hurt e.g. Sansa or Jon Snow. Plus, Arya is Sansa’s sister who imo is the only one who has all the credits for being the younger more beautiful queen (supposing the two prophecies are connected).

  44. Efi,

    The younger more beautiful “queen” should be in quotation marks, because the prophecy doesn’t mention “queen”. So it might be “woman”, “girl”, “brother” (?! lol , this is what actually happened) or sth else entirely (Nymeria?).

  45. Efi: The younger more beautiful “queen” should be in quotation marks, because the prophecy doesn’t mention “queen”. So it might be “woman”, “girl”, “brother” (?! lol , this is what actually happened) or sth else entirely (Nymeria?).

    To this end, since it doesn’t mention gender or this person being a queen, I wonder if Young Griff (younger, who I think is said to be quite handsome), Dany (younger, described as beautiful, is a queen), or perhaps even Brienne (also younger and while not physically beautiful apart from her eyes, she may be more beautiful in spirit or may be seen as more beautiful in a way by Jaime?) might also be this “another” (in addition to Sansa).

    I’m also entertaining the idea that Brienne might be Valonqar. She has the ability to strangle Cersei and could find her motive via Jaime. While I didn’t get the impression that Valonqar was all about protecting family, it might be a motive (depending on who Valonqar is). However, strangulation is a very distinct way of killing so I’m hung up on that…

  46. On the topic of Cersei’s end (who will be the younger, more beautiful one to cast her down and take all she holds dear, who will be Valonqar), I remembered Alt Shift X did a video on this topic that I completely forgot about. It goes over several theories.

  47. Adrianacandle,

    ”…I’m wondering if Volonquar needs to be somebody who has a more personal history with Cersei since the method of killing is so personal and agonizing?

    For that reason, I’ve often thought of Arya as Volonqar — but does she have the physical strength and size to strangle Cersei? Ditto for Dany. Both would fulfill the younger sibling bit but they are also both anatomically small, slender young girls without a ton of muscle…”

    • I eliminated females from my Valonqar Sweepstakes only because:

    (a) As grammarian King Stannis would point out, the prophecy as worded specifically refers to “his hands” (masculine). GRRM could have easily phrased it differently if he intended to embrace both genders, e.g., he could have avoided using the pronoun “his.”

    (b) There is no indication that the Valyrian word for “little brother” is gender-neutral, unlike Book! Aemon’s and Show! Missandei’s translation of the PTWP prophecy to mean “the Prince or Princess” That Was Promised.
    Dragons may be genderless. I don’t think that extends to binary-sexed humans or to all Valyrian words for humans.
    Again, GRRM could’ve left this ambiguous if that’s what he intended. (E.g., in English, words like “doctor” aren’t gender-specific.) He didn’t. He used the masculine word “his,” and I assume the only in-universe translation of “Valonqar” was that it meant little “brother” – not “sibling.”

    (c) As much as I’d enjoy Arya dispatching everyone on her List – and in fact, wiping out every single villain and villainess 🙂 – I’ve always felt that fan speculation that Arya might steal Jaime’s face and kill Cersei masquerading as her twin brother would be a little cheesy. Besides, Arya would still be a “she” even if wearing a guy’s face.

    (d) Now, as I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), in the books Arya has not (yet) whacked anyone while wearing a face mask. On the show, she used that trick three times already. Doing it a fourth time would be [excuse the pun] overkill. I’m glad the show didn’t use that trick again; otherwise any time two or more characters were in a scene together I’d be wondering “Hey, is [Character X] really Arya in disguise?” If book! Arya was going to be Cersei’s strangler (and assuming D&D were aware of GRRM’s intended reveal), I would think the show would not have diluted the impact of Arya’s face-changing by using it, three times, first to enable Arya to exsanguinate Meryn F*cking Trant in S5e10; then to terminate Walder Frey and implicitly, his two “damn moron sons” in S6e10; and yet again to exterminate the rest of House Frey’s Red Wedding perpetrators in S7e1.

    (e) [Excuse the show! + books! conflation]: I would think the reference to “Dark Sister” in Arya’s show-only scene with Tywin would’ve been too enticing to pass up if “Valonqar” could mean a little sister, and Arya was meant to be the one to fulfill that prophecy. (Again, that would also be overkill, since show! Arya was already The Lord’s Chosen and The Princess that was promised who brought the dawn. I mean, she can’t do everything. Or can she? 👸🏻)

    (f) While Sansa certainly has the requisite personal connection to Cersei and every reason to want to snuff her out, I don’t believe (as you pointed out) that Sansa has been portrayed as
    having the physical strength to asphyxiate someone with her bare hands. (Hungry dogs as her proxy, yes. 🐕 🐶 Arya as her executioner, yes. 👸🏻🔪 Hands-on single combat…not so much. 🕊)
    And while Brienne would certainly have the physical strength do the job, I’m not sure she has the personal connection with Cersei or the personal animus to choke the life out of her. If anything, Brienne would execute Cersei in a swift, dignified manner – like show! Brienne did when she foolishly executed the One True King in the name of the treasonous would-be Usurper Renly.

    (g) Even if we assumed for the sake of argument that “Valonqar” could mean any younger sibling of either sex, rather than only the youngest* brother of two or more male siblings, are there any other female characters who’d even qualify as a candidate?

    * I’d also suggest that just like when Margaery told LF she wanted to be “the queen” and not just “a queen,” the use of the definite article in the term “the Valonqar” (as opposed to the indefinite article, e.g., “a Valonqar” or “any little brother”) identifies a specific person rather than a class of persons.
    That, to me, indicated that GRRM might be alluding to someone who’d be identified within a family as “the” little brother, and not merely any one of several younger brothers. (This could be a stretch though. It would, however, readily distinguish Aegon 2.0 from his older, deceased brother Aegon 1.0, e.g., Q: “Which Aegon?” A: “The little brother.”)

    • Oh, and another thing or two about my tinfoil elevation of Jon Snow aka Aegon T 2.0 from early 50:1 long shot to 2:1 odds-on favorite:

    – It was curious that Magy used a High Valyrian word in her prophecy. To me, that suggested that the Valonqar would be a member of a Valyrian family (or as Dany would say, someone who has “the blood of Old Valyria”), i.e., a Targ.
    Or else, why wouldn’t Magy just say “the Little Brother” or some generic English word, instead of using an esoteric Valyrian word that Young Cersei wouldn’t understand without a translator?
    (It’d be like addressing someone in an English-speaking country as “Frau” or “Fraulein”: you’d assume that person was a German or Austrian woman. There’s an old Ricky Nelson song that illustrates this. Maybe I’ll link it some other time. I’m digressing…. Sorry. 🤥)

    – Purely from a narratively satisfying perspective, I thought it’d be a delicious twist if:

    (a) The Lannisters assumed they’d already extinguished House Targaryen’s line of royal succession long ago during the tail end of Robert’s Rebellion, by Jaime Lannister’s assassinating King Aerys, and Tywin Lannister ordering the slaughter of toddler Aegon 1.0, at around the same time his father Prince Rhaegar was killed at the Trident. [I forget who died first: Rhaegar at the Trident or his son in KL?].
    And then of course nutty beggar prince Viserys – Rhaegar’s brother – later got himself killed in a far away land before he could even try to return home to reclaim the throne.

    (b) The Lannisters, first through Jaime & Cersei’s two incest bastard sons, King Joffrey and King Tommen (in furtherance of Tywin’s objective to establish a “dynasty”) and then through Queen Cersi herself, thought that all rival claimants had been eliminated [regicide-by-boar: very creative Cersei; and nice going, Kingslayer Brienne], firmly establishing themselves as the royal family.

    (c) After all that time, for a Targaryen heir – a “little brother” nobody even knew existed – to be the one who’d come along and end Cersei’s life, fulfilling the prophecy she’d been obsessed with avoiding and ending her and her family’s reign once and for all, could be a juicy “Oh, f*ck me!” shock to Cersei – and perhaps the fandom too, if GRRM sets it up that way.

    • Afterthought: I remain convinced that there is no way that Random Brick #235 will turn out to be the Valonqar. GRRM has got to have something different in mind. Besides, as other commenters have reminded me (thanks for the snark! 😎) I did not include Random Brick #235 or its little brother Ceiling Tile #428B in my Valonqar Sweepstakes scorecard.

  48. Ten Bears,

    Those are good speculations and some great points!

    Re: female Valonqar. As you noted, Maggie used a High Valyrian word in her prophecy. This from the wiki:

    As supporting evidence, a translation error discussed in A Feast for Crows is often cited. According to Maester Aemon, the prophecy about the prince that was promised, which thus far had been interpreted to indicate a man, could have been incorrectly translated. Aemon, because of this, comes to believe that the prophecy could refer to a woman, stating “The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.”.[33] Readers have taken this to indicate that the word used in the prophecy concerning the prince that was promised is gender-neutral, and thus, that there might be more gender-neutral words in the old Valyrian language, with “valonqar” being their candidate.

    David Peterson, who created the High Valyrian used on HBO’s Game of Thrones, has commented on the assumption, claiming that “[Aemon’s quote] says nothing whatever about the gender system of High Valyrian”. He stressed that Aemon, in A Feast for Crows, was speaking about biological gender (i.e., dragons being able to change their gender from male to female, or vice versa), not grammatical gender, and that grammatical and biological gender need not be tied to one another. To explain further, Peterson stated “English is a gender neutral language. We have gendered third person singular pronouns, but outside of that, English has no grammatical genders the way Spanish, French and Italian do. “Prince” is grammatically gender neutral. Semantically, though, it’s male, just as the words “man”, “bachelor”, “father” and “son” are. That these words exist says nothing about the grammatical gender system of English.” According to Peterson, the High Valyrian word originally used in the prophecy that was translated as “prince” in the Common Tongue (i.e. English) can refer to both men and women, with Aemon’s comment referring to the assumption, given the context, that the person prophesied must be male.[34]

    The use of “his” might point to a male, yes. However, it could be an assumption or interpretative translation on Maggy’s part (which is also noted in the show).

    It was curious that Magy used a High Valyrian word in her prophecy. To me, that suggested that the valonqar would be a member of a Valyrian family (or as Dany would say, someone who has “the blood of Old Valyria”), i.e., a Targ.

    Perhaps but it may be just the ancient language from which the prophecy originates in rather than the usage of Valyrian indicating the Valonqar must be a person who has Valyrian blood (sort of like The Prince That Was Promised, a prophecy I gather that also originated in the language of Valyrian(?) since Maester Aemon believed there was a translation error).

    I’d also suggest that just like when Margaery told LF she wanted to be “the queen” and not just “a queen,” the use of the definite article in the term “the Valonqar” (as opposed to the indefinite article, e.g., “a Valonqar” or “any little brother”) identifies a specific person rather than a class of persons.

    That, to me, indicated that GRRM might be alluding to someone who’d be identified within a family as “the” little brother, and not merely any one of several younger brothers. (This could be a stretch though. It would, however, readily distinguish Aegon 2.0 from his older, deceased brother Aegon 1.0, e.g., Q: “Which Aegon?” A: “The little brother.”)

    Yes, that may be what it’s indicating but I think it could also mean that there exists only one valonqar in all the world rather than pointing to this person needing being the youngest in the family.

    If the phrasing was a valonqar, it would make it seem like there are multiple valonqars running around when there is only one to fulfill this role.

    Or else, why wouldn’t Magy just say “the Little Brother” or some generic English word, instead of using an esoteric Valyrian word that Young Cersei wouldn’t understand without a translator?

    I’d imagine because a) sounds fancier, more ominous (to the reader) and b) it adds another piece for Cersei to suss out (the meaning of valonqar).

    [I forget who died first: Rhaegar at the Trident or his son in KL?]

    I think it was Rhaegar who died first because the Battle for the Trident occurs before the Sack of King’s Landing, during which is when Aerys gets news of Rhaegar’s death. This prompts Aerys to send his heir (Viserys) and wife to Dragonstone but refused to let Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys go as well to prevent Dorne from rebelling.

    (c) After all that time, for a Targaryen heir – a “little brother” nobody even knew existed – to be the one who’d come along and end Cersei’s life, fulfilling the prophecy she’d been obsessed with avoiding and ending her and her family’s reign once and for all, could be a juicy “Oh, f*ck me!” shock to Cersei – and perhaps the fandom too, if GRRM sets it up that way.

    Sure and while I’m not opposed to Jon being the valonqar, the only thing is that if Jon is killing Dany too, I think Jon killing Cersei as well would be a bit too much, even if the methods, manner, emotion, and circumstances of dispatch differ between the two. I’m not saying this rules out Jon as a possibility but I think it’d be a bit much narratively for the same person to be doing both these killings especially if they’re to happening within (I’m guessing) within the same/similar spans of time.

    Afterthought: I remain convinced that there is no way that Random Brick #235 will turn out to be the Valonqar. GRRM has got to have something different in mind. Besides, as other commenters have reminded me (thanks for the snark! ) I did not include Random Brick #235 or its little brother Ceiling Tile #428B in my Valonqar Sweepstakes scorecard.

    What?? But Younger Brick is my leading contender! (Joking, I agree with you XD)

    Watching that Alt Shift X video, there’s also another item which may bring Jaime back into the game. It’s possible that Jaime may use a chain of hands (the chain used for the Hand of the King) to choke Cersei to death. The westeros.org wiki, which also introduces this possibility, reminds me of this passage:

    “His natural daughter?” Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon. “You want a Westerling to wed a bastard?”

    “No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better.” Jaime would happily have strangled the woman with her seashell necklace. Joy was a sweet child, albeit a lonely one; her father had been Jaime’s favorite uncle.

  49. Efi:
    Ten Bears,

    Yeah. I think the valonqar might be Arya. The prophecy says “the valonqar” not “your valonqar”. It’s all about protecting the family, and Cersei’s obsessed enough to want to hurt e.g. Sansa or Jon Snow. Plus, Arya is Sansa’s sister who imo is the only one who has all the credits for being the younger more beautiful queen (supposing the two prophecies are connected).

    • Yes, as to the use of the term “the Valonqar” rather than “your Valonqar. As I speculated above,
    GRRM’s use of the definite article “the” rather then the indefinite “a” or “any” was deliberate.
    By the same token, as you pointed out, GRRM
    did not have Magy say “your” Valonqar or “your” brother (or sister).
    Assuming GRRM carefully phrased the prophecy, he likely intended it to be vague enough so that Cersei would readily jump to the conclusion that it had to refer to the little brother she despised so much, and had accused of killing her mom (thanks to the malignant influence of Father of the Year Tywin), when in fact if she’d thought about it dispassionately, she might have logically deduced that the prophecy probably referred to someone else’s little brother, i.e., someone outside her family. Or else – as you observed – Magy could’ve said “Your Valonqar.”

    Despite all of the other shaky or contorted prophecies in the books, which Tyrion described as [something like] donkeys who could suddenly kick you or whores that could bite someone’s member while fellating him*,

    * As you know, I have not read the books, though I am aware from discussions here that book! Tyrion had some colorful analogies to describe unreliable and misleading prophecies. I don’t recall the exact wording of Tyrion’s descriptions. I hope you know what I’m talking about.

    • However, as I also tried to explain above,
    I am not sure how Arya could fulfill the prophecy because she is not a “brother” and her hands are not “his hands.”

    • As poor little androgynous-looking tomboy Arya has had to frequently remind people who mistake her for Ned’s son: “I’m a girl!” Even dullard Polliver, in the Harrenhal scene, thought Arya was a boy until Tywin castigated him: “You idiot! This one’s a girl.”
    I don’t think GRRM would rely on Arya’s gender-defying clothing and physical appearance to shoehorn her into the masculine prophecy. I could be wrong. Perhaps the last thing book! Cersei ever sees – or thinks she sees – is a little boy crushing her windpipe. (“Wait, WTF? Who are you? Arry the orphan boy? I thought that malformed imp brother of mine would be … Get off me! … argh! .. gag … gasp gurgle .”)

    • [Ultra-Tinfoil Alert] Now, I know this will never happen, particularly because it’s unlikely GRRM could envision a way to portray it believably based on medical science decades ago, even if adopted as “magic” or as a mad scientist Qyburn experiment…. I’ll cover this with spoiler coding so as not to offend, though that’s hardly my intention.

    A far-fetched fulfillment of the prophecy would require a gender-fluid or transgender character: perhaps someone Cersei knew as a girl or had just assumed was a girl, who turned out to be a boy.
    For Cersei, who often bemoaned her treatment as a “broodmare” because of her sex, and mused that she should’ve been born a boy because she had more of the Lannister verve than Jaime, perhaps it would be karma to be choked to death by a girl or woman who had successfully navigated that tradition in a patriarchal, misogynistic world.

    That Brienne had often been derided as masculine-looking, or had proved herself more than capable in competing against men in traditionally masculine martial pursuits, could make her a viable candidate for this role of a woman perceived by Cersei to be a man, especially if her gender were obscured by armor and a helmet. However, I’m not aware that Brienne had any brothers or sisters. (I thought she was an only child. I could be wrong.)
    And if I recall correctly, the scene in which Cersei meets Brienne at Joffrey’s wedding party was a show-only creation, even though GRRM scripted that episode.
    Is there anything in the books indicating Brienne would have ample reason to administer to Cersei an an “up close and personal” death by strangulation? From the show, she struck me as someone who’d go about an execution in a business-like manner, without causing unnecessary pain to the condemned person. I also assume someone who aspired to be a knight would not torture a victim; if she had to kill an adversary she would do so with “honor.” Then again, if she didn’t have a sword, I suppose a rock (sorry Sandor) or her bare hands would have to do.

    • I was a little unclear. When you wrote: “Plus, Arya is Sansa’s sister who imo is the only one who has all the credits for being the younger more beautiful queen (supposing the two prophecies are connected)”, I hope you meant that Arya will turn out to be the Younger, More Beautiful Queen. 👸🏻

    If so, that had always been my impression from the show, and from my own two eyes: A critic once described Maisie Williams as “the Many-Faced Goddess” for her chameleon-like ability to change her look from boyish to glamorous. I concur. Even in her mid-S7 – S8 combat suit and pulled-back hairdo, Arya looked beautiful. If show! Lyanna (Aisling Franciosi) was the standard, Arya exceeded it. (I understand and appreciate that the show didn’t give Arya a cliche “makeover” scene, e.g., put Arya in a flowing white dress and take down her hair to look like show! Lyanna Stark in her S7e7(?) flashback wedding scene.)

    From my second-hand knowledge of the books, there are even more indications that horse face “Arya Underfoot” could blossom into a Lyanna Stark doppelgänger, i.e., a “wild beauty.”
    I thought book! Ned told Arya she looked like Lyanna; the “Kindly Man” told her she was attractive; and there was a passage – with Gendry? -in which she had to put on a dress, and looked rather fetching.

    For a reliable show-based assessment, I’ll refer to my go-to primary source for objective reporting:

    I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!

    – Hot Pie, S7e2

  50. A dance with Dragons should have included the big battle in Meereen. But because of the 5 years gap events there was no more room. The Winds of Winter will contain that battle and it’s safe to say that it was completed since 2011 or even before that.
    George already pre-released 9 chapters from TWoW.
    In this post he told us that he just finished 3 chapters in one month.
    So we know for sure that he already has completed 12 chapters and the battle in Meereen.
    Last year he said he will have TWoW in his hand in July 2020 or else, imprisonment. I think just as Jon Snow though us, “words stopped meaning anything”. What I think George actually says is: “it’s not the right time to publish The Winds of Winter.”
    And he’s right. It would have been a restricted event, with social distancing and so on. Not his heart’s desire.
    Although George, we would read TWoW in this isolation over and over.

  51. Ten Bears,

    However, I’m not aware that Brienne had any brothers or sisters. (I thought she was an only child. I could be wrong.)

    She had one older brother who died at age 8 — something I totally forgot but remembered after the fact.

    Is there anything in the books indicating Brienne would have ample reason to administer to Cersei an an “up close and personal” death by strangulation? From the show, she struck me as someone who’d go about an execution in a business-like manner, without causing unnecessary pain to the condemned person. I also assume someone who aspired to be a knight would not torture a victim; if she had to kill an adversary she would do so with “honor.” Then again, if she didn’t have a sword, I suppose a rock (sorry Sandor) or her bare hands would have to do.

    I don’t think Brienne is the strongest contender for this prophecy but I think she might be able to do so if she’s pushed by some extraordinary circumstances: she hits an emotional breaking point, if her relationship with Jaime is developed enough and something happens to him because of Cersei that drives her to this action in which she reacts out of fury, if she’s suffering exhaustion and at the mental end of her rope, and if circumstances push her to an extraordinary response like this whereas regularly, yes, she’d dispatch the target in a far quicker, cleaner way.

    It’s shaky no doubt and I’m not entirely sold, I have some reservations due to the manner of killing, but I’d say it’s within the realm of entertaining the possibility without knowing what she’ll be experiencing in the next books.

    I do like Jai’s idea of a twist on this (Jaime mercy killing Cersei to spare her a more brutal death) but I don’t think the manner of killing works for that. Strangulation, especially, feels like it’s being driven by a real hatred or an intense in-the-heat-of-the-moment emotion.

  52. Ten Bears: I thought book! Ned told Arya she looked like Lyanna; the “Kindly Man” told her she was attractive; and there was a passage – with Gendry? -in which she had to put on a dress, and looked rather fetching.

    With the dress, are you thinking of this passage? 😀

    It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides; the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it. So the next morning as they broke their fast, Lady Smallwood gave her breeches, belt, and tunic to wear, and a brown doeskin jerkin dotted with iron studs. “They were my son’s things,” she said. “He died when he was seven.”

    “I’m sorry, my lady.” Arya suddenly felt bad for her, and ashamed. “I’m sorry I tore the acorn dress too. It was pretty.

    Yes, child. And so are you. Be brave.”

    The other passages I think you’re thinking of?

    “It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.

    “You believe this is the only place for you.” It was as if he’d heard her thoughts. “You are wrong in that. You would find softer service in the household of some merchant. Or would you sooner be a courtesan, and have songs sung of your beauty?

    “Wear this when you are here,” the priest said, “but know that you shall have little need of it for the present. On the morrow you will go to Izembaro to begin your first apprenticeship. Take what clothes you will from the vaults below. The city watch is looking for a certain ugly girl, known to frequent the Purple Harbor, so best you have a new face as well.” He cupped her chin, turned her head this way and that, nodded. “A pretty one this time, I think. As pretty as your own. Who are you, child?”

    However, I don’t know if this makes Arya physically more beautiful than Cersei (in the way Sansa, Dany, and perhaps Margaery are) but a different type of beauty (I think Lyanna might be more striking than conventionally beautiful. I think Cersei, Sansa, Dany, Myrcella, Val, and Margaery, etc. all have conventional beauty while I get the impression that Lyanna is more of a wild beauty but less conventionally so).

    Yet that may not even matter. As noted in the Alt Shift X video above when he references theories suggesting Brienne may be the beautiful “another” to cast Cersei down, it may not be about physical beauty:

    But there’s also another cool possibility in Brienne, the one who takes Cersei’s dear Jaime from her. Brienne is younger than Cersei. But she isn’t more beautiful – in fact in the books, Brienne is very ugly — so ugly that she’s called “the Beauty” as a cruel sarcastic joke. But some fans argue that Brienne has a metaphorical inner beauty – her heroism, loyalty and kindness. Which does sound a bit lame and cliché, but it could make sense for Maggy the Frog.

    Maggy in the show looks like a sexy Halloween witch, but Maggy in the books is very ugly. Maybe she’d want to teach vain young Cersei a lesson by referring to a woman’s inner beauty. Also, Catelyn thinks that Brienne’s eyes are “beautiful”, and she thinks that just after saying she’d like to wrap her hands around Cersei’s “white throat” and choke her — almost the exact wording of Maggy’s valonqar prediction.

    So there’s definitely some connection here between Brienne and Maggy’s prophecy.

    Here is the Catelyn passage from ACOK that is being referred to:

    “You’re wrong,” Catelyn said sharply. “Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King’s Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister’s white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.”

    The Beauty raised her eyes, the only part of her that was truly beautiful. “If you dream that, why would you seek to hold me back? Is it because of what Stannis said at the parley?”

    Now, I’d still say this is kind of a reach (for both valonqar and the beautiful ‘another’)… but it’s fun to consider all the same 🙂

  53. Efi,

    Edit: (Timer ran out..)

    I meant to condense my last comment, AND to add that despite the in-universe warnings against accepting prophecies at face value, Magy the Frog has a perfect track record. Her predictions have always come true, even if the recipients, like Cersei, made incorrect assumptions and reinterpreted then to fit their own confirmation biases.

    By contrast, Melisandre and to some extent Kinvara, shoehorned prophecies into their own religious template, or simply misinterpreted visions. I also suspect that the “ancient” prophecies recited by Melisandre (e.g., the S2e1 “Warrior of Light” analog to the books’ Azor Ahai prophecy), must’ve been so embellished in their retelling over the millennia that they’re 10% accurate and 90% added-on window dressing.

    By S7e2, when Melisandre showed up on Dragonstone, even she had retreated from taking prophecies at face value. (Not surprising considering her disastrous conviction that Stannis was the Lord’s Chosen and her anointing Stannis as the PTWP, inducing him to doom himself and his family). In S5 she (inexplicably) seized on Jon as PTWP. By S7, instead of committing to a PTWP, Melisandre hedged, admitted prophecies were tricky, and merely said that Dany, like Jon Snow, “had a role to play.”

    Don’t get me wrong. I like it that “prophecies” are revealed to be 9 parts propaganda and misconception, and 1 part fact. I like it that just as in the real world, different cultures have their own iterations of the same prophesies. I like it that what were probably mundane historical events in the distant past involving regular guys, are transformed over time into mythic feats of legendary heroes. (The show had presented the recurring theme of how “official” accounts are often a fictionalized revision or even a total inversion of what really happened, but kind of abandoned this theme by the final two seasons.)

    I also like it that Magy the Frog kind of gives ASOIAF a MacBeth vibe: there’s a prophet who provides 100% accurate predictions, yet the character hearing them either: (a) ensures they come true by trying to prevent them from coming true, or (b) puts his or her own self-serving positive spin on them and doesn’t realize they’re about to come true – literally (apologies, adrianacandle) – until it’s too late.

  54. Ten Bears: In S5 she (inexplicably) seized on Jon as PTWP.

    (I’m sorry for replying to another response of yours!)

    I don’t think this was so inexplicable — I think the idea was that Melisandre realized she was wrong about Stannis, which shakes her faith to the core and she comes to believe the Lord of Light never spoke to her. However, when she is able to bring Jon back from the dead, something Melisandre views as a feat which shouldn’t be possible, this seems to restore her faith in that the Lord of Light is working through her after all and believes the Lord of Light brought Jon back for a reason.

    In the books, it seems Melisandre’s visions are correct but she’s misinterpreting/mistranslating them — all but for one, when she warns Jon about “daggers in the dark” and Jon dismisses this because Melisandre was wrong about Arya, who turned out to be Alys. And then, at the end of that same chapter, he’s shanked.

    When she asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai:

    Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

    And Melisandre talks about the trickiness of interpreting visions:

    Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, “Much and more,” but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

    But she does get things wrong and that may be due to seeing what she expects to see rather than understanding what she’s being shown.
    _____

    Don’t get me wrong. I like it that “prophecies” are revealed to be 9 parts propaganda and misconception, and 1 part fact. I like it that just as in the real world, different cultures have their own iterations of the same prophesies. I like it that what were probably mundane historical events in the distant past involving regular guys, are transformed over time into mythic feats of legendary heroes.

    Yes, it’s true that different cultures all have their own version of the legend Azor Ahai. However, I don’t know if these legends are totally all down to mundane historical events turning these guys into legends (especially because the original Long Night was a supernatural event with supernatural creatures and I’d think it’d need a supernatural aspect to combat it) — but I think there is a twist somewhere.

    Given the prevalence of magic and prophecy in the books vs. the show, in which the magical elements are significantly downplayed (and I’d say they are more an unpredictable force of nature than anything else), I think there is truth to these prophecies in some respect but they may be misinterpreted/mistranslated/unanticipated. I also think these prophecies would have a certain set of attributes to be met in order for a prophecy’s outcome to be realized as well or it’s a bit too loose — but perhaps under unexpected/unanticipated circumstances or with another unexpected feature/outcome/etc.

    GRRM described magic like this:

    Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical — something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it.

    This sort of sounds like trying to harness forces of nature but even there, in our world, there are things about our natural world (like outer space, the deep sea, theories over how life started on earth, what happened to the dinosaurs, etc.) we don’t totally understand, elements and aspects that are unpredictable, mysterious, and are out of our control.

  55. Adrianacandle,

    • Thank you for those excerpts and quotes!
    It looks like I might have been on the right track with some of what I postulated (e.g., that “Valonqar” wasn’t intended to be gender neutral), and barking up the wrong tree on other things.

    • I guess I shouldn’t realistically expect Jon to be the Valonqar. If that’s what GRRM intends, he’d have to set that up in the books – through a threat to Arya or Sansa, or something else that would cause Jon to confront Cersei, in anger, and motivate him to choke the life out of her.

    • I suppose I put too much tinfoil stock in things like the S7e2 LF + Jon scene in the WF crypts. I had thought that scene was in there to show how an otherwise laid-back Jon Snow would become enraged to the point of throttling someone who talked sh*t about his sisters.

    Now, in hindsight, I have no f*cking idea why that scene with LF was included at all.
    Jon never saw LF again after that. LF’s ability to piss off Jon (for no apparent reason) never figured into the story. If LF’s intention was to ingratiate himself with Jon, declaring that he “loved” Sansa just like he loved her mother did just the opposite. It only made LF come off as creepy and stupid. (Who in his right mind says that to a young girl’s older brother anyway?) It was no surprise to me that Jon reacted by throwing LF up against the wall, grabbing him by his throat, and threatening to kill him if ever touched his sister. But Jon then left, didn’t face a similar situation, and didn’t come close to choking anyone else.

    • I had thought Cersei might capture Sansa, triggering Jon’s rage buttons (as well as a frustration of his S6 assurance that he could protect her). I had thought that there would be a real justification for Tyrion’s statement in S7e2, when advising Dany to ally with Jon, that Jon Snow had “even more reason” than Dany to “hate Cersei.” (The reasons Tyrion gave at the time were flimsy: Cersei had no part in any of the murders of Starks cited by Tyrion).

    • I must have read too much into Cersei’s cryptic comments to the Iron Banker about using the Golden Company to take back something that was hers; Cersei’s continuing hatred for Sansa even after Jaime told her Olenna was behind Joffrey’s murder; Sansa’s warning to Jon that despite his focus on the impending zombie invasion from the north, Cersei posed a real danger from the south and was relentless in getting what she wants; Sansa (justifiably) declining Cersei’s “invitation” and sending Brienne in her stead; Sansa’s curious response (when Jon suggested that it almost sounded like Sansa admired Cersei) that she’d learned a lot from Cersei; and in general, a sense that Sansa and Cersei had unfinished business.

    • Q: Any ideas why that scene was in that episode? I suppose it could mirror Ned’s scene in S1 when he threw LF against the wall outside the brothel and started choking him… but so what?

    • I should also admit I’m a slave to my own wishful thinking, and my enjoyment of a well-deserved “oh, f*ck me!” type comeuppance for pompous bad guys, and similar dramatic twists and turnabouts that are meticulously set up.

    That could be why I felt that the “secret” little brother Aegon would work.

    • There are only three or four known characters that check off all the boxes for the Valonqar, assuming (as your quoted material indicates) that the the word is male gender specific.

    • I’d want Sandor to fulfill the Valonqar, though I do concede I am terribly biased.*

    Show! Sandor satisfied all of the requirements. He’s got a lifelong history with the Lannisters. He’s publicly announced “F*ck the Queen,” “F*ck the King,” enough times that he thought that’s why there was a bounty on his head. He’s killed Lannister soldiers. He abandoned Joffrey and the defense of KL during the Battle of the Blackwater in glorious fashion. On the show at least, he made his triumphant return to KL – in the retinue of Cersei’s adversaries. There’s bound to be bad blood between them.
    He’s the “little brother” of the two Clegane boys. He’s certainly got the physical strength to choke out Cersei, and the temperament to do so without hesitation or remorse – even if she’s bawling her eyes out.
    He too could be motivated to brutally strangle Cersei if she f*cks with either one of his surrogate daughters. I get the impression Sansa’s relationship with Sandor in the books is a little more nuanced than on the show, while his relationship with Arya was expanded upon in the show. Either way, even if the books left Sandor Clegane “at rest,” Cersei endangering either one of “his girls” could resurrect the violent Hound personna. (The show did that with the slaughter of Ray and his hippie commune. GRRM could conceivably reactivate the Hound via a threat to either or both Stark sisters. I assume GRRM didn’t hint that the Sandor was still alive as a gravedigger if he was just going to leave Sandor to hang out with a bunch of monks the rest of his days. The show repeatedly stressed, through Beric and through Ray, that Sandor was alive because the gods had plans for Sandor Clegane.

    He did serve as Arya’s protector and bodyguard until his incapacitating injury. He did later return to WF and safeguard Arya’s life at a critical moment.

    I do not know if there were such obvious hints and parallels in the books thus far. Nor do I know if there are foreshadowings that Sandor is destined to return to KL for a final showdown with ZombieGregor, i.e., Cersei’s bodyguard, or if Sansa or Arya might be in peril when that happens. Likewise, I don’t know if book! Arya, like show! Arya, will renain fixated on crossing Cersei off her List. (If certain fan theories are true, Sansa will wind up in KL for the final showdown against Cersei while Arya will remain in the North. I have no idea if these theories comport with the books.)

    * I liked show! Sandor so much that I’d want him to be the Valonqar, the Last Hero, the Lord’s Chosen, the Warrior of Light aka Azor Ahai. (If you look hard enough, the salt, the smoke, the rebirth, and most of the other prerequisites for these roles are in the show.)

    The only prophesied role I can’t shoehorn Sandor into is the Younger More Beautiful Queen. 😉
    Whether Sandor has the same prominence in GRRM’s telling as he did on the show is another story. I suspect not.

    • In any event, somebody’s got to strangle book! Cersei. I’d bet the farm GRRM is not going to kill her off in a cave-in. I’d also wager that Magy’s unblemished track record surely means her book! Valonqar prediction will come true. That the prediction was omitted from the show in the S5 cold open with Young Cersei and Magy gave the show leeway to craft its own means for Cersei’s demise. I doubt GRRM will simply blow off the prophecy that Cersei will die at the hands of “the little brother,” whoever that may turn out to be.

    P.S. I am sure I have been misspelling “Valonqar.” I’ll have to look up the right spelling and force feed it to Auto-Correct.

  56. Adrianacandle,

    Thank you for retrieving those Arya passages. Yes, they were the ones I remembered seeing somewhere.
    When I read the Lady Smallwood passage you excerpted, I thought to myself: “So Arya did get a makeover scene!”

    • The Brienne/Catelyn quotes are real interesting, i.e., Cat telling Brienne she’d want to wrap her hands around Cersei’s throat, in language almost identical to Magy’s prophesy.
    What could be the significance of that? It could not have been coincidental on GRRM’s part.

    Q [I cannot scroll back up to re-read your excerpts, so I apologize if the answer is in there]:
    Was there anything specific that provoked Catelyn to muse out loud about wanting to choke Cersei? Other than Cersei being Cersei?
    (Obviously, Catelyn’s gone. Perhaps whatever provoked her will also piss off the Valonqar..)

  57. Ten Bears,

    Q: Any ideas why that scene was in that episode? I suppose it could mirror Ned’s scene in S1 when he threw LF against the wall outside the brothel and started choking him… but so what?

    Bryan Cogman answers this in the commentary for 702!

    This was a scene [Jon in the crypts] that was not in the original outline. Usually the staff, David and Dan, and Dave and myself, we map out every scene and we outline it in great detail. Then we script the episodes from the outlines. Generally, it adheres pretty closely to it.

    But when I was writing the episode, it occurred to me that Littlefinger and Jon had never really spoken. There was obviously a lot of tension there. Littlefinger has been allowed to stay in the castle because Littlefinger essentially saved their lives at ‘The Battle of the Bastards’ but Jon’s well aware of Littlefinger’s role in putting Sansa in the horrible position she was put in, in season 5.

    So, I dreamed up this scene and I’m really happy that the guys didn’t do what they sometimes do when I dream up a new scene and go, “What the hell is this?” and throw it out. But they liked this one.

    So it seems like a scene Cogman wanted to put in because he wanted a LF and Jon confrontation since they had never spoken before and there were clearly issues between them Cogman wanted to play on. And it could also involved some dramatic irony — Jon is depicted to be a lot like Ned, though he’s not Ned’s son by blood.

    I had thought that scene was in there to show how an otherwise laid-back Jon Snow would become enraged to the point of throttling someone who talked sh*t about his sisters.

    I think it’s more than LF just talking sh*t about one of his sisters because Jon isn’t that trigger happy (like you said) — LF is one of Sansa’s abusers — a man who Jon was told by Sansa that sold her to a monster tormented and raped her. For that reason, Jon would reasonably hate Ramsay. Plus, as of season 7, Sansa is the only one of Jon’s remaining family who he knows for sure is alive and he has back. And now LF is perving on his abused sister in the crypts and Jon already hates the guy.

    In one of the clips promoting season 7, Kit Harington talks about Littlefinger and how Jon hates this man, doesn’t trust this man, and views LF as trying to manipulate Sansa. Kit Harington also talks about some discord between Jon and Sansa in this same interview — I saved this clip to one of my hard drives and if you’re interested, I’ll get it off. I just need to get to my other computer.

    I think, realistically, Jon could be driven to throttle somebody who is directly responsible for significant torment against a loved one and/or if it’s somebody who Jon already hates (and Jon does hate the Lannisters in the books) if the circumstances came together just right and Jon had had it. In the books, it’s Arya who Jon was willing to risk everything for, despite his misgivings, while he doesn’t really react to news of the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa (not to say Jon doesn’t love Sansa in the books but they’re missing that factor in the show where they were the only two Starks who managed to reunite and I think that informed a lot).

    In ASOS, Jon does briefly lose it against Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt when they would not stop insulting Ned and here, Jon knew Janos Slynt had a hand in Ned’s death. Jon nearly throttles Alliser Thorne. He was also pretty heavily injured, sleep deprived, exhausted, and had reached the end of his mental rope.

    Like Brienne, Jon doesn’t lose it as a rule but in this instance, everything came together to create a sort of perfect storm: mental and physical exhaustion, he despises Thorne and Slynt from his very marrow already, and they kept taunting him and trying to provoke him about his father — and Jon responded.

    I had thought Cersei might capture Sansa, triggering Jon’s rage buttons (as well as a frustration of his S6 assurance that he could protect her). I had thought that there would be a real justification for Tyrion’s statement in S7e2, when advising Dany to ally with Jon, that Jon Snow had “even more reason” than Dany to “hate Cersei.” (The reasons Tyrion gave at the time were flimsy: Cersei had no part in any of the murders of Starks cited by Tyrion).

    We know Cersei was not directly responsible for the murders of the Starks because we got to see those scenes but Jon may not. Cersei stood alongside Joffrey when Joffrey had Ned executed (and I think that might be why Cersei is on Arya’s list?) Plus, there’s whatever Sansa told Jon about Cersei, who had a hand in tormenting Sansa and putting her in some pretty awful situations in King’s Landing.

    Sansa (justifiably) declining Cersei’s “invitation” and sending Brienne in her stead; Sansa’s curious response (when Jon suggested that it almost sounded like Sansa admired Cersei) that she’d learned a lot from Cersei; and in general, a sense that Sansa and Cersei had unfinished business.

    I thought so too — but I didn’t think that manifest in putting Sansa in yet another victim role (which is a big problem I have with the Ramsay storyline) but a confrontation in which both were on fairly equal footing.

    He did serve as Arya’s protector and bodyguard until his incapacitating injury. He did later return to WF and safeguard Arya’s life at a critical moment.

    I do think Sandor would be a good candidate if valonqar is male. Arya may figure into it, perhaps Sansa, but we’ll have to see!

  58. Ten Bears,

    I do not know if there were such obvious hints and parallels in the books thus far. Nor do I know if there are foreshadowings that Sandor is destined to return to KL for a final showdown with ZombieGregor, i.e., Cersei’s bodyguard, or if Sansa or Arya might be in peril when that happens. Likewise, I don’t know if book! Arya, like show! Arya, will renain fixated on crossing Cersei off her List. (If certain fan theories are true, Sansa will wind up in KL for the final showdown against Cersei while Arya will remain in the North. I have no idea if these theories comport with the books.)

    I’m hoping if Sansa returns to KL in some fashion, which I’d like to see since I agree they do have stuff between them, that it’s not in a victimized role. Rather, I’m hoping it’s in a role where Sansa has more control, agency, and can use her wits (rather than having to rely on another party to for a rescue as she’s had to do throughout the books — through no fault of Sansa’s but I’m hoping she’ll learn some tools to grant herself more agency and control).

    With Arya, I have trouble foreseeing her crossing Cersei off her list but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. I just can’t see it happening at this time with the way the story is. But I don’t know when Arya returns North, she may visit KL first per some other theories and suggestions. But it’d be an interesting thing to look up and read other peoples’ thoughts about this!

    The only prophesied role I can’t shoehorn Sandor into is the Younger More Beautiful Queen. 😉
    Whether Sandor has the same prominence in GRRM’s telling as he did on the show is another story. I suspect not.

    Well, neither ‘queen’ nor gender is specified in that part of the prophecy and Sandor may have a beautiful spirit 😉

    In any event, somebody’s got to strangle book! Cersei. I’d bet the farm GRRM is not going to kill her off in a cave-in. I’d also wager that Magy’s unblemished track record surely means her book! Valonqar prediction will come true. That the prediction was omitted from the show in the S5 cold open with Young Cersei and Magy gave the show leeway to craft its own means for Cersei’s demise. I doubt GRRM will simply blow off the prophecy that Cersei will die at the hands of “the little brother,” whoever that may turn out to be.

    I agree, I think it’s too big a thing to overlook and chalk it up to Cersei dying under a pile of bricks.

    P.S. I am sure I have been misspelling “Valonqar.” I’ll have to look up the right spelling and force feed it to Auto-Correct.

    You’ve got the right spelling! (I double checked! Like with the spelling of ‘Daenerys’, I made an active effort today to memorize the spelling of ‘valonqar’ — no second ‘o’ and no ‘u’ after the ‘q’, which have been my common mistakes with word’s spelling)

    • The Brienne/Catelyn quotes are real interesting, i.e., Cat telling Brienne she’d want to wrap her hands around Cersei’s throat, in language almost identical to Magy’s prophesy.
    What could be the significance of that? It could not have been coincidental on GRRM’s part.

    The Alt Shift X video above noted the same thing in that it is nearly identical to the wording of Maggy’s prophecy, which leads me to give it a bit more credence that Brienne is the more beautiful ‘another’. I have some reservations but it’s an interesting possibility to consider.

    Was there anything specific that provoked Catelyn to muse out loud about wanting to choke Cersei? Other than Cersei being Cersei?

    I’ll get the full quote! Catelyn blames Cersei for Ned’s death and wants revenge. She’s sympathizing with Brienne over her desire to kill Stannis for Renly:

    [Catelyn to Brienne] “You mean to kill Stannis.”

    Brienne closed her thick callused fingers around the hilt of her sword. The sword that had been his. “I swore a vow. Three times I swore. You heard me.”

    “I did,” Catelyn admitted. The girl had kept the rainbow cloak when she discarded the rest of her bloodstained clothing, she knew. Brienne’s own things had been left behind during their flight, and she had been forced to clothe herself in odd bits of Ser Wendel’s spare garb, since no one else in their party had garments large enough to fit her. “Vows should be kept, I agree, but Stannis has a great host around him, and his own guards sworn to keep him safe.”

    “I am not afraid of his guards. I am as good as any of them. I should never have fled.”

    “Is that what troubles you, that some fool might call you craven?” She sighed. “Renly’s death was no fault of yours. You served him valiantly, but when you seek to follow him into the earth, you serve no one.” She stretched out a hand, to give what comfort a touch could give. “I know how hard it is—”

    Brienne shook off her hand. “No one knows.”

    “You’re wrong,” Catelyn said sharply. “Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King’s Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister’s white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.”

    The Beauty raised her eyes, the only part of her that was truly beautiful. “If you dream that, why would you seek to hold me back? Is it because of what Stannis said at the parley?”

  59. Efi: I don’t think that Martin withheld anything of importance from the producers.

    Sorry: didn’t mean to imply that you thought that! It was germane to other things I was writing. The sort of fan who held (and probably still holds) this idea are the same sort that were convinced that Martin had both of the remaining books done but was not releasing them yet for _____ reasons. (Usually these reasons were Martin sharing their hatred of the TV show!) We’ve seen how well that idea panned out! I think that a lot of it also stems from ignorance of how writers write stories. A lot of fans assume that authors are always just making it up as they go: and that the climax of the story occurs to them shortly before they start writing it. However, whenever authors discuss the writing process, they almost always emphasize that the climax of the story is one of the first things and often the first thing that jumps into their head. Martin has talked about this a bit. (Before him, Rowling did the same Other series authors might say the same, but very few series with over-arching plots have gotten anywhere near the attention that GoT and HP received.)

    The other things is that fandoms always attract a “conspiracy theory” crowd, and this fandom is no exception. Amusingly, I’ve heard equally goofy conspiracy theories in the opposite direction: particularly that Martin has never had an ending or an intention to provide one, but that he thought it would be wonderfully funny to provide an entertaining setup with lots of hanging clues, etc., and then crush people by never delivering it! Oddly, those particular conspiracy theorists tend to be fans of other franchises, and the sort of fan who hates all other franchises on principle.

    Ain’t entertainment entertaining? 😀

  60. Ten Bears: There are only three or four known characters that check off all the boxes for the Valonqar, assuming (as your quoted material indicates) that the the word is male gender specific.

    I forgot to add — I think the quoted material from the wiki indicates how the word for valonqar may not be gender specific, thus the reason why some fans are speculating about a female valonqar. It might very well be a male! But I think there’s room for some interpretation based on the quoted material from the wiki over these these High Valyrian words (“prince”, “valonqar”) possibly meaning male and female, introducing the idea that some mistranslation/miscommunication may or may not have not occurred. Maester Aemon is talking about TPTWP — but this may actually apply to valonqar instead.

    Just a theory 🙂

  61. Adrianacandle,

    Good lord, the amount of missing words from sentences in my post. Corrections!

    * LF is one of Sansa’s abusers — a man who Jon was told by Sansa that sold her to a monster *who tormented and raped her.

    * and they kept taunting him and trying to provoke him about his father — and Jon *rose to their bait (Note: Alliser and Janos were trying to get Jon executed here, using this as “proof” Jon is now a wildling. This was after his return to Castle Black from the wildlings).

    * I thought so too — but I didn’t think that *would manifest in putting Sansa in another victim role (*or at least, I hoped not. This is a big problem I had with the Ramsay storyline) but a confrontation in which both were on fairly equal footing.

  62. Adrianacandle,

    Thanks for ferreting out the origin of the S7e2 LF-Jon scene. So it wasn’t in the original script outline. If you ask me, Cogman shouldn’t have decided to add in that scene. It contributed nothing. It detracted from LF’s character. It went nowhere. It wasted precious screen time.

    They could have used those few minutes in S7e2 for… MORE HOT PIE! Or more Arya & Nymeria.

    Anyway, thanks again for solving that little mystery. Now I know why that scene confounded me.

  63. Adrianacandle,

    ”…We know Cersei was not directly responsible for the murders of the Starks because we got to see those scenes but Jon may not. Cersei stood alongside Joffrey when Joffrey had Ned executed (and I think that might be why Cersei is on Arya’s list?) Plus, there’s whatever Sansa told Jon…”

    Glad you brought that up: I do think Cersei made it onto Arya’s list because Arya (mistakenly) assumed Cersei must have been responsible for Joffrey beheading Ned, though as I recall Joffrey himself publicly announced that Cersei and Sansa had counseled him to show “mercy.” As I understood things, Cersei was prepared to follow through on the prearranged deal with Ned: his false confession for treason in exchange for exile to the Wall. Joffrey blew that up, and even Cersei was blindsided.

    I guess Arya didn’t know that???

    Arya was not aware of any of Cersei’s mistreatment of Sansa at the time Arya started composing her List. Besides, most of Sansa’s torment occurred after Ned’s execution and after Arya had already escaped KL, so Cersei’s abuse of Sansa didn’t earn her a place on the List.

    Or perhaps it was because Cersei demanded Lady’s death after Joffrey lied about tormenting a Mycah? Arya alternatively blamed Joffrey and then Sandor for Mycah’s death; I don’t recall her ever blaming Cersei. I know that after the Joffrey vs. Mycah fiasco, when Sansa played dumb instead of telling Robert what happened, Arya told her father she hated “all of them” – the king, the queen, Joffrey… and Sansa. But again, I don’t recall that Arya later placed any of them on her List because of that early S1 incident.

    I don’t know what to think. Cersei was wicked, alright and yet…is it possible Arya wrongly condemned Cersei, and even years later was laser-focused on her objective “to kill the Queen” all based on a mistaken assumption?

    If so, then Sandor unwittingly prevented her from killing someone who didn’t belong on her hit list to begin with.

    I mean, some folks (like Olenna and other Sept explosion victims’ families) had good reason to want to kill Cersei. Arya was not one of them.

    Am I overlooking something?

  64. GRRM says: “I finished a new chapter yesterday, another one three days ago, another one the previous week. But no, this does not mean that the book will be finished tomorrow or published next week. It’s going to be a huge book, and I still have a long way to go.”

    So now we know the book will be finished…someday.

  65. Ten Bears,

    I guess Arya didn’t know that???

    I found a quote that provides reasoning for the names on Arya’s list and it looks like Arya does blame Cersei for her father’s execution:

    Arya watched and listened and polished her hates the way Gendry had once polished his horned helm. Dunsen wore those bull’s horns now, and she hated him for it. She hated Polliver for Needle, and she hated old Chiswyck who thought he was funny. And Raff the Sweetling, who’d driven his spear through Lommy’s throat, she hated even more. She hated Ser Amory Lorch for Yoren, and she hated Ser Meryn Trant for Syrio, the Hound for killing the butcher’s boy Mycah, and Ser Ilyn and Prince Joffrey and the queen for the sake of her father and Fat Tom and Desmond and the rest, and even for Lady, Sansa’s wolf. The Tickler was almost too scary to hate. At times she could almost forget he was still with them; when he was not asking questions, he was just another soldier, quieter than most, with a face like a thousand other men.

    I think — because Arya wouldn’t have any way of knowing that Cersei was blindsided by Ned’s death since Arya was never privy to these conversations over what Tywin/Cersei/etc. wanted to do with Ned (ie. not execute him) — she’d have no way of knowing the truth. From her perspective, Cersei stood by her demonic son when he cut off her father’s head.

    Arya was not aware of any of Cersei’s mistreatment of Sansa at the time Arya started composing her List. Besides, most of Sansa’s torment occurred after Ned’s execution and after Arya had already escaped KL, so Cersei’s abuse of Sansa didn’t earn her a place on the List.

    I think Arya does become aware of Sansa’s beatings by Joffrey in ASOS via Sandor but that was well after she came up with her list (I think Arya first recites her list in Arya VI).

    I know that after the Joffrey vs. Mycah fiasco, when Sansa played dumb instead of telling Robert what happened, Arya told her father she hated “all of them” – the king, the queen, Joffrey… and Sansa. But again, I don’t recall that Arya later placed any of them on her List because of that early S1 incident.

    Yes, Arya didn’t come up with her list at this time but yes, she did blame all of those people for Mycah’s death:

    “Arya desperately wanted to explain, to make him see. “I was trying to learn, but …” Her eyes filled with tears. “I asked Mycah to practice with me.” The grief came on her all at once. She turned away, shaking. “I asked him,” she cried. “It was my fault, it was me …”

    Suddenly her father’s arms were around her. He held her gently as she turned to him and sobbed against his chest. “No, sweet one,” he murmured. “Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher’s boy. That murder lies at the Hound’s door, him and the cruel woman he serves.”

    “I hate them,” Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. “The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied, it wasn’t the way he said. I hate Sansa too. She did remember, she just lied so Joffrey would like her.”

    I mean, some folks (like Olenna and other Sept explosion victims’ families) had good reason to want to kill Cersei. Arya was not one of them.

    Am I overlooking something?

    Not for Ned’s death in any case, Cersei didn’t approve of that, but I’d think there’d be other reasons (Sansa’s torment, Arya herself being hunted, the hunt for Gendry — it’s Cersei who is hunting Robert’s bastards in the books rather than Joffrey, as portrayed in the show — Cersei gunning for the Starks… In AFFC, Cersei tries to have Jon assassinated for aiding Stannis but Arya wouldn’t know about that.)

    That word has more than one spelling in High Valyrian, Your Grace.

    😉

    And I’m going to hold to that! 😉

  66. Adrianacandle,

    I’m overtired and may be hopelessly confused about the chronology. Please bear with me…

    About Melisandre, I stated above that “in S5 she (inexplicably) seized on Jon as PTWP.”

    You replied:

    ”I don’t think this was so inexplicable — I think the idea was that Melisandre realized she was wrong about Stannis, which shakes her faith to the core and she comes to believe the Lord of Light never spoke to her. However, when she is able to bring Jon back from the dead, something Melisandre views as a feat which shouldn’t be possible, this seems to restore her faith in that the Lord of Light is working through her after all and believes the Lord of Light brought Jon back for a reason.”

    • I thought Mel jumped from Stannis to Jon as her designated PTWP in S5, long before she resurrected Jon in S6e2(?).

    • With the understanding that the following timeline is approximate and the dialogue is paraphrased:

    • S4e9: Nights Watch barely holds off Mance’s assault on CB.
    • S4e10: After Jon goes out alone to Mance’s tent to treat with Mance or try to kill him, Stannis & his cavalry arrive on the scene and subdue the Wildling army. At Jon’s suggestion, Stannis takes Mance prisoner. Thereafter, Stannis & Co. take up residence at CB. At some point Mel joins him there.
    • S5e?: Mel escorts “the Bastard of Winterfell” to confer with Stannis, who wants Jon to convince Mance to bend the knee and have the Wildlings join his army.
    • S5e?: Stannis offers to legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark to “give me the North.” [Great speech by Stannis/Stephen Dillane]. Jon declines.
    • S5e?: Mel gives Jon weird look through the flames of a funeral pyre; says nothing.
    • S5e?: Jon elected LC.
    • S5e?: Janos Slynt defies LC Jon’s order. Jon beheads Slynt. Stannis nods in approval. [Not really relevant. I just wanted to throw that in.]
    • S5e?: Mel tries to seduce Jon with lap dance + sex as LoL-sanctioned religious ritual spiel. She vaguely alludes to some kind of “power” in Jon.
    Hard to tell if she senses he’s got king’s blood or is somehow special; or if she’s (understandably) just drawn by his pretty hair and washboard abs to try to hook up with him, spouting religious mumbo jumbo as a pretext. (She had successfully used a similar routine to seduce Gendry and extract his king’s blood.) Mel opens her robe, Jon cops a feel, but then turns her down.
    •S5e5: Jon unchains Tormund; agrees to ask Stannis to borrow his ships to sail with Tormund to Hardhome.
    • S5e?: Stannis leaves CB for WF, never to return. Stannis’s forces are snowbound on their way to WF. Stannis sends Davos back to WF to facilitate Shireen’s immolation without Davos interfering.
    •S5e9: At Mel’s suggestion, Stannis roasts Shireen to melt the ice and snow, and free up his forces to continue their march to WF.
    • S5e?: Half of Stannis’s army deserts; horses are killed in Ramsay’s guerrilla attack. Selyse hangs herself. Meanwhile, Melisandre has abandoned Stannis, and rides off to WF.
    [Note: This is where my recollection of the order of events gets really discombobulated.]
    • S5e? or S6?? Mel tells Davos Stannis wasn’t the PTWP but “someone has to be.” Mel designates Jon Snow as (her new) PTWP.
    TB talks back to TV screen, asking: “Why him? Why not Edd? Why not Hot Pie? Why not flaming sword-wielding, 6x resurrected Beric Dondarrion?” Nothing suggests Mel believes Jon is a “Prince.”
    • S5e? [I think Mel makes another Jon = PTWP statement at some point. I am drawing a blank.]
    • S5e9 or e10? For some reason, Davos hitches his wagon to Jon Snow. The pretty hair and the abs?
    • S5e10: Stannis and skeleton crew march on foot to WF. They get wiped out. Brienne commits regicide and treason, executes the One True King in the name of the late treacherous would-be Usurper, Renly.
    • S5e10: Jon gets shanked.
    • S6e1: For some reason, Davos, Edd and a few others safeguard Jon’s corpse.
    • S6e2: Out of the blue, Davos asks Mel if she knows of some kind of magic spell to bring Jon back to life.
    • S6e2: Edd sneaks off to ask Wildlings (at the Gift?) for help against Thorne and his fellow traitors, who are now in charge of CB. Wun Wun makes dramatic gate-crashing entrance just as Thorne and his goons are about to chop down the door with Davos, DeadJon et al. inside.
    • S6e2: Though disheartened by her f*ck-ups, Mel begrudgingly agrees to take a shot at resurrecting Jon. It doesn’t look like it’s working. Everybody starts leaving the room.
    • S6e2: A few minutes later, Ghost wakes up from a nap. Mel proclaims Ghost as TPTWP. [Just kidding]. Jon gasps, sits up. End of episode.
    • S6e3: Resurrected Jon goes outside to greet his fans.
    • S6e3 or e4: Sansa and Brienne arrive at CB. Brienne casually mentions to Davos that she executed the One True King.

    – I would wholeheartedly agree that if Mel didn’t anoint Jon as PTWP until after she (well, the Lord of Light) resurrected him, then you’re right and I’m wrong: Mel seizing upon Jon as PTWP would not be “inexplicable.” It would make logical sense.
    I’ll have to go back and pinpoint when Mel started calling Jon TPTWP, and what exactly she said.

    – By itself, resurrection still wouldn’t explain why Jon would be considered a “Prince” – his true parentage had not been revealed yet – but I won’t quibble over such details.

    – In any event, on the show Jon didn’t turn out to be the Prince That Was Promised anyway.
    That honor was reserved for the Lord’s Chosen, ASNAWPTWP.*

    In show canon, the Lord of Light had kept bringing back Beric so he could give his last life to protect Arya. Likewise, the Lord of Light brought back Sandor after he was clinically dead because the Lord’s plans for Sandor Clegane were for him to join Beric in safeguarding Arya so she could do her savior of the world gig.
    I’m okay with that.😀

    (Incidentally, I’m glad the show kept Beric alive. I understand that in the books Beric had already given his last life to reanimate Catelyn’s decomposing corpse. I liked Richard Dormer’s portrayal, loved his voice, and enjoyed the way Beric laughed off Sandor’s insults. I also thought Beric’s speeches were well-written and well-delivered, especially in S6 – S8.
    I also genuinely appreciated that in a show full of violent religious zealots and hypocrites who used “the gods” as an excuse for personal aggrandizement and arrogating political power (hello, High Sparrow and your forehead-carving imbeciles) or to roast “nonbelievers,” there was a character whose faith compelled him to defend those who could not defend themselves, and fight the forces of evil for the sake of the greater good.)

    *👸🏻 Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised who brought the dawn and saved the world from eternal darkness.

  67. Adrianacandle,

    I figured GRRM and TWOW deserved their own musical tribute.

    Next up: Sandor Clegane. Not as easy as I’d hoped. I was gonna go with “Hound Dog” by Elvis, except the lyrics don’t fit and I’m not enamored with the song anyway.

    I don’t think I remember very many love songs or any other songs written about a gruff, foul-mouthed warrior – a misanthrope with “a face like a half-burned ham,” per Hot Pie.

    Hmm. I’ll have to try to focus on the “inner” Sandor, the one who despised knights and yet bravely rescued damsels in distress when “anointed” knights chickened out; spoke through his actions contrary to the hateful words he uttered; and on rare occasions briefly dropped the nasty facade (e.g., with Arya in S4e7, S8e2, and S8e5).

    Well, off to bed…

  68. Ten Bears,

    I would wholeheartedly agree that if Mel didn’t anoint Jon as PTWP until after she (well, the Lord of Light) resurrected him, then you’re right and I’m wrong: Mel seizing upon Jon as PTWP would not be “inexplicable.” It would make logical sense.
    I’ll have to go back and pinpoint when Mel started calling Jon TPTWP, and what exactly she said.

    I believe the times when Melisandre refers to Jon as TPTWP are in 6×03 and 6×04, after Jon is resurrected (but I can’t find a mention of her believing Jon to be this beforehand):

    6×03 (to a newly resurrected Jon, who returns to life at the very end of 6×02):

    Melisandre: The Lord let you come back for a reason. Stannis was not the prince who was promised, but someone has to be.

    6×04:

    Davos: Will you stay here at Castle Black?

    Melisandre: I will do as Jon Snow commands.

    Davos: You serve Jon Snow now?

    Melisandre: He’s the prince that was promised.

    Davos: Forgive me, my lady, I thought that was Stannis.

  69. Ten Bears: I don’t think I remember very many love songs or any other songs written about a gruff, foul-mouthed warrior – a misanthrope with “a face like a half-burned ham,” per Hot Pie.

    Hmm. I’ll have to try to focus on the “inner” Sandor, the one who despised knights and yet bravely rescued damsels in distress when “anointed” knights chickened out; spoke through his actions contrary to the hateful words he uttered; and on rare occasions briefly dropped the nasty facade (e.g., with Arya in S4e7, S8e2, and S8e5).

    My own mental music library is far far far more limited than yours so I’m afraid I can’t offer any suggestions 🙁 Except for this one, which just occurred to me:

    As odd as this is (and this may be totally out of left-field), what you described sounds a bit like Shrek XD;; Maybe that (first) movie would offer some suggestions? 🙂 Or Beauty and the Beast (I’ve seen it written that the relationship between Sandor and Sansa is supposed to be a play on that…).

  70. Adrianacandle,

    Looks like I was wrong and you were right. You found the lines by Mel that I was thinking of. They are in S6, post-resurrection.

    Particularly since Mel had such a dreadful history of interpreting visions in the flames and apparently had gotten only static or silence in response to prayers in the past, for the Lord of Light to actually listen to her prayer and grant her request by bringing a dead person back to life must have been a BFD for her. It would also be a pretty good indication that the resurrected person is super special.

    Great sleuthing! 🕵️

  71. Ten Bears,

    I think Arya blamed Cersei for the Trident incident, Mycah’s death and Lady’s killing. While she doesn’t know that many things, she knows that Sansa would never willingly marry a Lannister –but that is later; Cersei enters her list long before that, so it must be related to the Trident. Also, Ned “confides” in her by telling her that she must be careful in the court, because it’s “winter”. So Arya must have sensed that her father was worried for more things than she could ever imagine and that there was something wrong in KL, unlike Sansa, who is kept in the dark. A kid would be able to put two and two together, even though she doesn’t have the details.
    Arya also learns that Sansa was beaten at the court (Cersei is not responsible for that, hers is another type of abuse) and that she was up for raping (also indicated by what Sandor says about that). While Arya’s reasoning is not that explicit -she is only 11 after all- it’s the bits and pieces that she must put one after the other in her mind, that make the list very firm. I suppose we’re yet to see more about that in her future chapters (some day).

  72. Ten Bears,

    It’s really an over-reliance on the Cmmd+F function 🙂 You had Melisandre’s line right word-for-word.

    Efi,

    I think Arya blamed Cersei for the Trident incident, Mycah’s death and Lady’s killing.

    To amend an above comment I made about this (re: the quote showing Arya’s reasoning and why she put these names on her list), I think Lady specifically is one of the reasons why Arya blames Cersei, as well as her father’s death:

    Arya watched and listened and polished her hates the way Gendry had once polished his horned helm. Dunsen wore those bull’s horns now, and she hated him for it. She hated Polliver for Needle, and she hated old Chiswyck who thought he was funny. And Raff the Sweetling, who’d driven his spear through Lommy’s throat, she hated even more. She hated Ser Amory Lorch for Yoren, and she hated Ser Meryn Trant for Syrio, the Hound for killing the butcher’s boy Mycah, and Ser Ilyn and Prince Joffrey and the queen for the sake of her father and Fat Tom and Desmond and the rest, and even for Lady, Sansa’s wolf. The Tickler was almost too scary to hate. At times she could almost forget he was still with them; when he was not asking questions, he was just another soldier, quieter than most, with a face like a thousand other men.

    And it’s right after this paragraph that Arya develops her list and starts reciting it night after night (Arya VI, ACOK).

    And while Arya isn’t blaming Cersei here, I think it’s evident she does feel Lady’s death quite a bit:

    Arya was glad to hear that the castle of the Darrys would be burned. That was where they’d brought her when she’d been caught after her fight with Joffrey, and where the queen had made her father kill Sansa’s wolf. It deserves to burn.

  73. Adrianacandle,

    Musical moral dilemma!

    I was turned off by Sansa’s speech to Sandor in S8e4, i.e., that she’d still be a little bird were it not for LF, Ramsey and all the abuse she had to endure. Many fans and critics are divided on this. I for one thought it played into a horrible and overused “rape made me a stronger person” cliche. I also find the notion of empowerment through suffering to be boneheaded and lazy. (Girls and women can evolve in ways other than through surviving torture and abuse.) Enough pontificating…

    My problem is that I think I may have found the perfect song for Sansa, but it plays into that trope I find offensive. Maybe it is not even my place to criticize it. If a woman sings about it, who am I to question it?

    I’d better sleep on it. Or plan to post it with a disclaimer.

  74. Ten Bears,

    “Nor do I know if there are foreshadowings that Sandor is destined to return to KL for a final showdown with ZombieGregor, i.e., Cersei’s bodyguard, or if Sansa or Arya might be in peril when that happens.”

    There is foreshadowing in Bran’s chapters, among his visions in GoT.
    Bran sees his sisters in KL. Above them he sees three figures, one golden, shining all over (Jamie) one like a hound (definitely Sandor) and another whose open visor reveals sth very, very bad (the other Clegane).
    I took this from Wiki:
    “one as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound, one armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful, and one a giant in armour made of stone with only darkness and thick black blood in his visor looming over them”

    Now, one might think that this is about what will happen in the next months, Sansa’s attempted rape, the events in KL, etc. But there is the problem that Jamie has absolutely no role in the events in the first and second book with regard to Arya and Sansa. Also, Gregor Clegane has no interference with the girls either. He is sent by Tywin to the Riverlands and is absent from KL until a few days before the duel with Martell. For this reason I tend to think that this vision refers to the final events.

    I might be wrong though; I have reservations because I do not think that Sansa will return again in KL. Arya and Sandor might, but I do not find a reason for Sansa to return there before everything is over, meaning before the destruction of KL.

    Also, this vision might not be about one event either. What if it foreshadows the roles of these people in the lives of Arya and Sansa, or in general in the story? But again, I do not see why Gregor as dead and resurrected by Qyburn would have any relevance to Sansa, who has escaped in KL and -imo- won’t return for a long time. (I do believe that Arya will be in KL with Jon)
    Also, Gregor is not important politically. He’s someone to command, not someone who will by himself have any impact on the story. If he’ll pose a threat to the girls it’ll be via Cersei who commands him.

  75. Ten Bears: I was turned off by Sansa’s speech to Sandor in S8e4, i.e., that she’d still be a little bird were it not for LF, Ramsey and all the abuse she had to endure. Many fans and critics are divided on this. I for one thought it played into a horrible and overused “rape made me a stronger person” cliche. I also find the notion of empowerment through suffering to be boneheaded and lazy. (Girls and women can evolve in ways other than through surviving torture and abuse.) Enough pontificating…

    For myself, I agree with what you’re saying here because I felt the same way:

    With my own experiences, I had one counselor throw a similar line of reasoning at me — that I became “stronger” for these experiences but a) it certainly didn’t feel that way to me, I felt quite the opposite, b) this made me pretty angry, and c) this explanation upset me to the point where I dropped this counselor altogether.

    However, that’s not to say everybody feels the way I do because maybe there are some who do feel this way or maybe it’s more complex than this for some.

    I agree especially with this:

    I also find the notion of empowerment through suffering to be boneheaded and lazy. (Girls and women can evolve in ways other than through surviving torture and abuse.)

    While suffering does inform our views, development, and growth — for better or worse, I think you’re right in that it’s not the only vehicle for growth and (positive) development. Suffering can be but it can also do damage in many ways too. Ultimately, and speaking only for myself, I think it’s a pretty complex notion: strengthening through adversity. I think that’s quite possible, I think suffering certainly makes an impact and can stimulate a type of development (and can certainly provide a strong basis for empathy and an ability to relate to the suffering of others) but that impact can also be pretty complex and unwilling to be filtered into wholly good or wholly bad — sometimes, it just results in a… difference.

    However, I’m no psychologist, psychiatrist, MD, or anything else 🙂

  76. Ten Bears,

    “As grammarian King Stannis would point out, the prophecy as worded specifically refers to “his hands” (masculine). GRRM could have easily phrased it differently if he intended to embrace both genders, e.g., he could have avoided using the pronoun “his.””

    As the language geek that I am, I have to point out that for non-english natives who come from countries where nouns have three genders and accusative and pronouns all follow declination and gender, like mine, adjusting a neutral —the/a/one– to the possessive pronoun and vice-versa is a pain in the a**. As in:

    “One should choose math studies if it fits his intellect”

    See what I mean? Why “his” and not “her”? Why not “one’s”?
    You need to know this information in advance, which you don’t, because I did not give you that.
    One of my English Grammar books said that it’s wrong to follow with him/her/his/hers when it’s not indicated which gender is meant. The correct follow-up would be, technically, the same, meaning in this case, “one’s”.
    But the same author admitted that it usually doesn’t happen neither in written nor in spoken language. We tend to use him/her/his/hers without any justification, but admittedly it makes our lives easier.

    Which is why I don’t think that Stannis’ argument is correct. He’s a sophist in reality, set out to prove sth that’s not necessarily there.
    The correct in this case should be “the valonqar shall warp his/her hands around your throat”, since we don’t know what gender a valonqar is. 😁

    [of course Martin couldn’t write his/hers in the text!]

  77. Adrianacandle,

    On the show, I found it strange that during Arya’s table-stabbing argument with Sansa, she blamed Joffrey (not Sandor) for Mycah’s death, because Sandor only does what Joffrey tells him to do.
    Yet, in S3 in the cave with the Brotherhood Arya came right out and accused Sandor of murder.

    That was all complicated when Sandor prevailed in his trial by combat. Afterwards, when she still insisted he was guilty, Beric responded: “not in the eyes of god” or something like that.

    In S5 Game of Faces with Jaqen 2.0 Arya got whacked with his stick several times when she said she had left the Hound to die in the mountains because “I hated him! I wanted him to suffer!” … “That’s not a lie! I hated him!” Jaqen 2.0 retorted: “A girl lies to me, to the Many-Faced God,… to herself.” By S6 Arya admitted to the Waif she had taken Sandor off her list. She did – and she did not – want him dead any longer; she sounded confused because she was confused.

    What I’m getting at is Arya apparently absolved Sandor of slaughtering Mycah – which he had freely admitted, both in the Brotherhood’s cave in S3 and again in S4e10 when he tried to goad her into killing him.

    How then could she continue to blame Cersei for the Mycah incident? Or was suggesting that Lady be killed in place of the missing Nymeria enough to warrant the death penalty for Cersei?

    As much as I love Arya, I wonder if she went overboard in putting Cersei on her list and keeping her there for years, when others who had done far worse were let off the hook. I also wonder if she’d change her mind if she knew what really happened when Joffrey ordered Ned beheaded, scuttling Cersei’s deal with Ned.

    Another thought, based on the book excerpts: I can see how an 11 year-old girl would condemn everybody she saw on the dais without apportioning culpability. Wouldn’t the benefit of a few years of maturity dissuade her from assigning guilt by association? I mean, she did apparently accept that Sandor had killed Mycah because it was not his place to question the Prince’s story or refuse his command.

    Oh, I don’t know. It just seemed to me that Cersei remaining on the List was a function of the story designating Cersei as the Big Bad, more than anything else. Melisandre, Sandor, and Beric all got dropped from the List after a while, and arguably they all did worse things than Cersei.

    Final comment on this subject: Had Arya been assigned to carry out an assassination mission as part of the war effort, that would have been different – even commendable. A stealth infiltration and killing of the enemy’s ruler would have achieved the mitigation of collateral damage that Team Stark + Targ was trying to avoid all along by following Tyrion’s (not so) “clever plans.”
    But killing Cersei motivated by a purely personal and possibly misplaced desire for revenge wasn’t so admirable, was it? That’s why I’m glad Sandor talked her out of it. (Though he should’ve bisected Cersei when she flitted down the stairs right by him. I’m still not sure why they filmed it that way…)

  78. My brief suggestion about the Valonqar has really taken on a life of its own, hasn’t it? 😉

    Great debates everyone. A few more thoughts from me:

    + Jaime would have to strangle Cersei instead of stabbing her if he no longer has a dagger or sword at that point.

    + Without getting into distasteful details about the mechanics of it all, Jaime would only need one working hand to do it. He could use his gold hand to simply hold Cersei’s neck still from the other side.

    + Another explanation: ASOIAF’s Wiki page about Valonqar prophecies has an interesting alternative theory about what “Jaime’s hands” actually means in the context of killing Cersei.

    + Jaime mercy killing Cersei mirrors Cersei nearly mercy killing Tommen at the end of the Battle of Blackwater. You know how GRRM loves that kind of mirroring/foreshadowing etc, as we also saw on GOT.

    However, as Ten Bears has noted, GRRM also loves unexpected twists. So here are some other options:

    + “Younger, more beautiful queen” may refer to Dany overthrowing Cersei. And Dany being the sole surviving “younger sibling” in her family also fits “Valonqar” basically meaning “younger sibling”.

    + However, the prophecies may not refer to the same person.

    + So, while “younger, more beautiful queen” may still refer to Dany, the almost exact wording used in Maggy’s “Valonqar” prediction and Catelyn’s remarks to Brienne could mean that the person that ultimately strangles Cersei is…Lady Stoneheart.

    + This would partly explain why GOT didn’t make a big deal about the Valonqar prophecy; it was because the show completely dropped the Lady Stoneheart storyline.

    + Maggy also says “Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.”
    + Someone needs to check the books. Was a young Catelyn anywhere in the vicinity (either nearby or at least in the same kingdom) while Maggy was talking to the 10 year old Cersei?
    + Or, if you want to get time-bendy, was the adult Catelyn anywhere in the same kingdom as the adult Cersei when she was recalling that memory? Does that mean Maggy was actually talking to the future Cersei remembering that childhood experience?

    + It’s possible one of the final books in ASOIAF will mention that Catelyn originally had one or more older siblings who died when she was young (perhaps they were still alive when Maggy made her prophecy), so “younger sibling” could actually refer to Catelyn in that context.

    + But the “Valonqar” turning out to be Lady Stoneheart would be one hell of a twist. Not to mention yet more mirroring etc — Ned died because of Cersei, so Catelyn ultimately ends up being the person that kills Cersei. And you can imagine GRRM doing this.

  79. Ten Bears,

    What I’m getting at is Arya apparently absolved Sandor of slaughtering Mycah – which he had freely admitted, both in the Brotherhood’s cave in S3 and again in S4e10 when he tried to goad her into killing him.
    How then could she continue to blame Cersei for the Mycah incident? Or was suggesting that Lady be killed in place of the missing Nymeria enough to warrant the death penalty for Cersei?

    I would suspect the difference lies in that Arya was able to foster a relationship with Sandor and see him beyond what she thought he was. I don’t really have much to base this on other than my own views/interpretation of the matter but I’m wondering if the time Arya spent with Sandor enabled her to see him as a person with relatable motivations (ie. what he suffered at the hands of his brother) while Cersei remained an enemy to Arya, a stranger whom she had barely any contact with.

    Well, that and Sandor helped Arya survive 😉

    But again, I don’t have any sources to base this on — this is just speculation 🙂

    Another thought, based on the book excerpts: I can see how an 11 year-old girl would condemn everybody she saw on the dais without apportioning culpability. Wouldn’t the benefit of a few years of maturity dissuade her from assigning guilt by association? I mean, she did apparently accept that Sandor had killed Mycah because it was not his place to question the Prince’s story or refuse his command.

    Yes but even Catelyn blamed Cersei for Ned’s death and Catelyn was an adult. In Arya’s view, Cersei had a hand in Ned’s death and unless she is able to access the truth somehow, I don’t know that she’d ever reconsider this position (that Cersei was at the mercy of Joffrey) because by this time, Arya already hated Cersei (before Ned’s death).

    I wouldn’t call this fair but I’d call it a realistic reflection of emotions and sometimes mistaken perception.

    Melisandre, Sandor, and Beric all got dropped from the List after a while, and arguably they all did worse things than Cersei.

    I can’t remember why Melisandre was dropped from Arya’s list. She’s not on Arya’s list in the books simply because Arya hasn’t met Melisandre in the books.

    Final comment on this subject: Had Arya been assigned to carry out an assassination mission as part of the war effort, that would have been different – even commendable. A stealth infiltration and killing of the enemy’s ruler would have achieved the mitigation of collateral damage that Team Stark + Targ was trying to avoid all along by following Tyrion’s (not so) “clever plans.”
    But killing Cersei motivated by a purely personal and possibly misplaced desire for revenge wasn’t so admirable, was it? That’s why I’m glad Sandor talked her out of it.

    Yes, I agree with this :/

  80. Adrianacandle,

    I am not a shrink either. To me it’s common sense that enduring physical or emotional trauma is not a good thing. Surviving it and moving past it is laudable. Better to not have it happen at all.

    I don’t know any women who’d say abuse was worth it, or that all in all it was a positive experience.

    I have never heard an abuse survivor say she is thankful that it happened or else she’d still be naive and innocent. Unfortunately, that’s how I perceived Sansa’s dialogue in that scene.

    Other viewers have different perceptions and different opinions. I am speaking only for myself.

    Frankly, I had been expecting a more rewarding and much longer Sansa + Sandor reunion scene, considering their relationship in S1 and S2 before Sansa decided to stay in KL instead of taking up Sandor on his offer to take her home the night of the Battle of the Blackwater.

    I cringed when Sandor told Sansa he’d heard how she’d been “broken in.” That was nasty and unnecessarily cruel, even for foul-mouthed Sandor. When he tried to convey that he regretted she had not escaped KL with him when she had the chance because she never would’ve been abused by LF and brutalized by Ramsay, Sansa came back with the verbiage I found so offensive.

    And then their scene abruptly ended. That was it. Very unsatisfying, not enjoyable to watch, and no desire to rewatch.

  81. Jai,

    My brief suggestion about the Valonqar has really taken on a life of its own, hasn’t it? 😉

    It really did! And I’ve really enjoyed the valonqar debate! (And getting its spelling right!)

    Someone needs to check the books. Was a young Catelyn anywhere in the vicinity (either nearby or at least in the same kingdom) while Maggy was talking to the 10 year old Cersei?

    I’m pretty sure Catelyn was in Riverrun at the time, she doesn’t mention being in or around Lannisport during her childhood at any point (as far as I can recall. I did a quick check but I can’t see any mentions of Catelyn traveling to Lannisport as a child).

    Or, if you want to get time-bendy, was the adult Catelyn anywhere in the same kingdom as the adult Cersei when she was recalling that memory? Does that mean Maggy was actually talking to the future Cersei remembering that childhood experience?

    We learn about valonqar in AFFC and this is when Cersei is recalling that memory. By this time, however, Catelyn is already dead (having died during the Red Wedding in ASOS).

    It’s possible one of the final books in ASOIAF will mention that Catelyn originally had one or more older siblings who died when she was young (perhaps they were still alive when Maggy made her prophecy), so “younger sibling” could actually refer to Catelyn in that context.

    I don’t know… if that were the case, I think Catelyn would remember and it would have been mentioned in one of her POV chapters by now (like how we know about Brienne’s deceased older brother).

    Lady Stoneheart as valonqar is a really cool idea! She’d certainly have motive to strangle the life out of Cersei (and I think that’d be a gentle method of killing for LSH) but I don’t know that she quite fits. I really like the idea though.

  82. Ten Bears,

    I am not a shrink either. To me it’s common sense that enduring physical or emotional trauma is not a good thing. Surviving it and moving past it is laudable. Better to not have it happen at all.

    I don’t know any women who’d say abuse was worth it, or that all in all it was a positive experience.

    I have never heard an abuse survivor say she is thankful that it happened or else she’d still be naive and innocent. Unfortunately, that’s how I perceived Sansa’s dialogue in that scene.

    Yes, I did feel uncomfortable with this notion.

  83. Jai,

    If you know…

    Who exactly is responsible for the content of “ASOIAF’s Wiki”? Is it a recognized authority for book canon? Does the information come directly from GRRM?

    I ask because I seem to recall a commenter here questioning the manner in which the editor (or head writer, or whatever his title is) unilaterally dictates what’s in the “Wiki” and decides who gets to contribute.

    Also – and I may be mistaken – I thought I had started watching some long-winded, vituperative videos on YouTube by a fellow who said he’s in charge of the Wiki. I say “started watching” because after several minutes of D&D bashing, I couldn’t keep watching. I don’t mind criticism, even negative criticism. Some of it is enlightening. After a while though, a non-stop barrage of insults becomes annoying.

    I could very well be thinking of the wrong “Wiki.” I apologize if I’ve inadvertently confused “ASOIAF Wiki” with something else.

  84. Adrianacandle,

    ”…Someone needs to check the books. Was a young Catelyn anywhere in the vicinity (either nearby or at least in the same kingdom) while Maggy was talking to the 10 year old Cersei?”

    I don’t know about Young Catelyn. But Young Sandor was right next door, on property abutting Casterly Rock where his dad worked as kennel master.

    So perhaps we should ask ourselves: What families with at least two brothers would 10 year old Cersei be familiar with?

    “I’ve been looking at Lannister gold all my life.”

    – Sandor Clegane to Brienne of F*cking Tarth, S4e10

  85. Ten Bears,

    I think I can answer this! 🙂

    The ASOIAF wiki is from westeros.org, one of the earliest sites for ASOIAF on the internet. It’s run by Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson, two people who co-wrote The World of Ice and Fire with GRRM and GRRM has used them as fact checkers.

    Also – and I may be mistaken – I thought I had started watching some long-winded, vituperative videos on YouTube by a fellow who said he’s in charge of the Wiki. I say “started watching” because after several minutes of D&D bashing, I couldn’t keep watching. I don’t mind criticism, even negative criticism. Some of it is enlightening. After a while though, a non-stop barrage of insults becomes annoying.

    I think you’re thinking of the GoT wiki hosted by fandom.com? That’s a separate wiki run by some different people. That wiki is more for the show while the westeros.org wiki is almost entirely for the books.

  86. Ten Bears: I don’t know about Young Catelyn. But Young Sandor was right next door, on property abutting Casterly Rock where his dad worked as kennel master.

    So perhaps we should ask ourselves: What families with at least two brothers would 10 year old Cersei be familiar with?

    “I’ve been looking at Lannister gold all my life.”

    – Sandor Clegane to Brienne of F*cking Tarth, S4e10

    It’s true that it’s more likely Sandor would have been in the area but I’m not entirely sure of the likelihood that Sandor and Cersei would be in the same vicinity at the very same time when Cersei met Maggy the Frog — it’s possible though! I think it sucks that we don’t get a Sandor POV though :/

    That’s a good question to ponder 🙂

  87. Adrianacandle,

    I’m pretty sure Catelyn was in Riverrun at the time, she doesn’t mention being in or around Lannisport during her childhood at any point (as far as I can recall. I did a quick check but I can’t see any mentions of Catelyn traveling to Lannisport as a child).

    No mentions *yet*. GRRM may have avoided mentioning it in the books so far because it would give the game away too much. Same with any theoretical older siblings.

    Lady Stoneheart as valonqar is a really cool idea! She’d certainly have motive to strangle the life out of Cersei (and I think that’d be a gentle method of killing for LSH) but I don’t know that she quite fits. I really like the idea though.

    The Catelyn/Brienne quote is eventually going to turn out to be either a really blatant clue or sneaky misdirection from GRRM. But it’s fun to speculate about this stuff anyway.

    I think I can answer this!

    Thanks for answering Ten Bears’ question. I wasn’t entirely sure about the specific details.

  88. Adrianacandle,

    Long due reply -but not so overdue because I can’t catch up with this dialog over here! There’s so many things I’d like to comment and I can’t find enough time for it! This is turning out to be a very nice discussion and a meaningful one.

    I should perhaps clarify further what I mean by de-characterization, because in my opinion this is what gives the flavor of the show ending, not the ending per se. Of course the ending comes from Martin and a lot -perhaps most- fans are displeased with the straight-up-portrayed-as-hero of the story turning out to be an evil dictator that has to be assassinated by her ex-lover in order for the story to conclude.
    But for careful viewers like myself and many others who had seen it coming since season 2 it’s perhaps -I keep my reservation because not everybody thinks things as thorougly and deeply as I do- the characterization of the mains that does the trick. That said, of course that last “flavor” of the show -apart, that is, from the ending- can be different from individual to individual too. All estimates and evaluations of the viewers are accepted and appreciated so long as they don’t turn against the producers -because the producers in the process of adaptation have to take other things into cosideration: giving time to the actors (justifying their payments), showing things that exist in the book narrative (not in dialog), satisfy the fans (because there’s also the commercial factor) and, in this case, the minority of many of the mains which was very particular to GoT (and more things that I can’t even begin to think about).

    And so begins de-characterization, that in this case affected the “flavor” that the ending of the mains has given to the viewers (such as myself). I mean that in part de-characterization served to even out the difficulties of the adaptation; but in part it also served the take of the producers on the material, and with a view to the general audience, it also served making something hard on the audience somehow more easily digestible.

    I think that in this case the first is exemplified in the ending of Arya. You mentioned that Arya might be so traumatised that she won’t want to stay in Westeros when all this is done. This might very well be true, but she doesn’t only have negative thoughts about Westeros and home. The only reason she can’t return home is that the country is infested with her family’s enemies. WF is burnt and she trains herself to think that she has no more siblings in Braavos. This, however, is part of her no-one persona. This is a persona that she builds, one which has no attachments whatsoever. But I believe that Needle is not just “Jon Snow’s smile”. In that book abstract she condenses all her happy memories, and Needle, which she refuses to part with as instructed, becomes a symbol of home and family and happy time, before all the loss. She learns that death is part of life and learns to come to terms with that, to accept it. Yes, she has lost mother, father and a brother and forces herself to think that her entire family is dead. But the readers (and the viewers) know that this is not true. She still has two brothers and a sister. These are “her pack” -she calls them that more than once. How plausible will it be that she leaves them as soon as she returns? I’m not saying that she will never leave. At this point in the book she’s only 11 y.o. and will probably be 13 going on 14 by the end of ADoS. She’s far too young and has lost far too many things to leave just because she can. If Martin intends for her to leave, I suppose it makes better sense to have her leave after a few years. But for the producers, cutting that beautiful ending and showing what will be a few years after the events would be anticlimactic. So Arya leaves immediately after things are settled. There’s also other things one can point out regarding Arya’s de-characterization. She’s not becoming any type of Ninja in the books; she’s far older in the show; her love for Jon wasn’t that obvious throughout. And perhaps there’s more that escapes me. But all these things together affected Arya’s characterization in the show.

    I have more things to say. I’d like to speak about Sansa and Tyrion because it relates to the discussion above. But I have to leave now and perhaps I’ll do it later tonight.

  89. Adrianacandle: It’s true that it’s more likely Sandor would have been in the area but I’m not entirely sure of the likelihood that Sandor and Cersei would be in the same vicinity at the very same time when Cersei met Maggy the Frog — it’s possible though! I think it sucks that we don’t get a Sandor POV though :/

    That’s a good question to ponder 🙂

    I’m not sure what you mean by “the same vicinity.”
    Wasn’t Young Cersei in the woods on or near her father’s property (Casterly Rock)? Or did the books place her somewhere else? She’d be quite a rebellious 10 year old if she traveled far from home to seek out a fortune teller.

    I think I missed something in your discussion or theory: What would be the significance of Sandor being in ”the same vicinity at the very same time when Cersei met Maggy the Frog”?

    I was assuming that Magy was telling Young Cersei about a “little brother” she already knew, not a guy she wouldn’t meet until much later in life. The younger of the two Clegane boys fit the bill. He’d be close by, right next door, and likely on the Lannister property quite a bit. I was also assuming a pre-teen highborn girl like Cersei would lead a somewhat sheltered life, and wouldn’t be traveling all over the place meeting strangers.

  90. Efi,

    This is turning out to be a very nice discussion and a meaningful one.

    It is! 🙂

    I should perhaps clarify further what I mean by de-characterization, because in my opinion this is what gives the flavor of the show ending, not the ending per se. Of course the ending comes from Martin and a lot -perhaps most- fans are displeased with the straight-up-portrayed-as-hero of the story turning out to be an evil dictator that has to be assassinated by her ex-lover in order for the story to conclude.

    I think that’s one of the reasons but I don’t know if it’s the reason. From what I’ve seen, many people that I’ve seen are unhappy over how it was set-up and the limited time frame it had to occur in. However, there are fans of the character herself who hate that it happened — and among those, you get a variety: including stans (apologists who can’t accept any moral failings in Dany, deny the burning of KL even happened, cite it as purely D&D’s choice, and also deny any version of it will happen in the books — and I find stans of any character exhibiting similar tendencies) and fans who didn’t want to see this happen, feel this also sends a nihilistic message itself, but who can accept a version of this will happen in the books.

    I’d be interested in the responses of more neutral viewers and how they viewed it because significant bias for and against a character (particularly a stan and an anti) can really affect their reception of the storyline and what ideas/messages they take from it (and these are often the most vocal of viewers). Meanwhile, more neutral viewers may not be so affected by this bias and may view the story more evenly (for example, how would a new viewer without any pre-existing knowledge of the story/any loyalties to the characters prior to viewing receive watching Game of Thrones all at once from the beginning to the end? What would be their take on it?)

    But for careful viewers like myself and many others who had seen it coming since season 2 it’s perhaps -I keep my reservation because not everybody thinks things as thorougly and deeply as I do- the characterization of the mains that does the trick.

    I think other people can think as deeply about this story (I know I ponder it quite a bit) while not coming to these same conclusions. For example, Linda Antonsson — somebody who GRRM consults as a fact checker for his books — has come to some different conclusions which differ from other parts of the fandom who also spend quite a bit of time thinking about this story themselves. It’s the reason why fans debate so much 🙂

    I think this discussion we’re having about valonqar also demonstrates this: there’s a lot of careful assessment going on but people are coming to different conclusions.

    because the producers in the process of adaptation have to take other things into cosideration: giving time to the actors (justifying their payments), showing things that exist in the book narrative (not in dialog), satisfy the fans (because there’s also the commercial factor) and, in this case, the minority of many of the mains which was very particular to GoT (and more things that I can’t even begin to think about).

    I think some of these are definitely considerations (particularly how to transition from a book medium to a television medium) but I’d dispute the producers were doing things with the primary focus of satisfying the fans. D&D made some very unpopular decisions and knew these choices weren’t going to be popular but still stuck with them. Plus, I don’t know about the argument of giving time to actors to justify payments — Lena Headey was one of the top paid actresses and didn’t get a ton of screentime in season 8 😉

    I mean that in part de-characterization served to even out the difficulties of the adaptation; but in part it also served the take of the producers on the material, and with a view to the general audience, it also served making something hard on the audience somehow more easily digestible.

    I think I’d disagree that the choices the producers made softened the harsh aspects of the adaptation but I think there were definitely adaptational choices, yes! And that some content was streamlined, characters like Jeyne Poole and Sansa were melded together because D&D still wanted to incorporate Jeyne’s storyline while showcasing Sansa more — but I don’t think D&D made choices to make storylines easier on audiences. The Ramsay storyline was certainly rough, for example.

    I think that in this case the first is exemplified in the ending of Arya. You mentioned that Arya might be so traumatised that she won’t want to stay in Westeros when all this is done. This might very well be true, but she doesn’t only have negative thoughts about Westeros and home. The only reason she can’t return home is that the country is infested with her family’s enemies. WF is burnt and she trains herself to think that she has no more siblings in Braavos. This, however, is part of her no-one persona.

    Arya doesn’t have just negative memories of Westeros, that’s true. She misses her family and her home — but I don’t think this changes how impacted she’d be by her brutal experiences in Westeros and Braavos and I think the show’s ending can work well for Arya.

    In light of everything that’s happened since she was separated from her family and forced to go on the run in war-torn Westeros, I’d expect Arya to view Winterfell more favourably, and Sansa too. These experiences would put things in a special perspective. But that still doesn’t really change how she doesn’t feel she fits in within Westeros and Winterfell, how she can’t get comfortable with the gender roles these societies are trying to assign her. And it doesn’t really change the impact her experiences may have on her which could prompt her to seek a release from these painful places.

    I think these ideas can coexist: longing to return to a simpler time with her family all together and alive again while possibly needing a release from the painful reminders of her experiences and losses, as well as finding a place in which she feels comfortable, a role she can be satisfied with.

    There’s that saying, “You can never go home again,” and I think that’s true. One can go back to the physical place and the physical people but what it once was is no longer. So much as changed, the returning person has changed. It’s different. And Winterfell is also filled with the ghosts of lost loved ones, loved ones who never returned. Winterfell isn’t really the same place anymore.

    What home becomes may change.

    How plausible will it be that she leaves them as soon as she returns? I’m not saying that she will never leave.

    Maybe not as soon as — but I think after a time, yes.

    Even in the show, Arya didn’t leave home as soon as she returned. She was there for a while — at least half a year.

    At this point in the book she’s only 11 y.o. and will probably be 13 going on 14 by the end of ADoS. She’s far too young and has lost far too many things to leave just because she can.

    I don’t think that’s too young to leave home. For one, this is a universe in which adulthood starts at age 12-14 and secondly, Arya has already been on her own for quite some time. I don’t think she’d leave right away but I think it’s reasonable for Arya to set her sites elsewhere.

    But for the producers, cutting that beautiful ending and showing what will be a few years after the events would be anticlimactic.

    Between Arya’s return in 7×03 and her departure in 8×06, I’d say a minimum of half a year has gone by (for example, Jon’s imprisonment time alone spans weeks). Perhaps even as much as a year — but I think it’s hard to get that sense of time in the latter seasons because characters were traveling to places much faster as we weren’t spending time on those journeys as we did before.

    her love for Jon wasn’t that obvious throughout.

    I think there was trouble in adapting this relationship, yes. I think we definitely had moments of Arya showing her love for Jon, in particular, in the show (like that scene in which she struggles over throwing Needle away) but I do think the depiction of their relationship suffered in a visual medium because, in the books, so much of their relationship was revealed via each character’s inner monologue.

    I don’t know about Arya becoming a ninja but I think the skills she learns in Braavos will play a role somehow 🙂

  91. Ten Bears,

    I’m not sure what you mean by “the same vicinity.”
    Wasn’t Young Cersei in the woods on or near her father’s property (Casterly Rock)? Or did the books place her somewhere else? She’d be quite a rebellious 10 year old if she traveled far from home to seek out a fortune teller.

    Oh, I had meant the idea that Cersei and Sandor were both in the same woods and Sandor was in proximity when Cersei received her prophecy.

    I think I missed something in your discussion or theory: What would be the significance of Sandor being in ”the same vicinity at the very same time when Cersei met Maggy the Frog”?

    I’m sorry for not being clear/mistaken. I think this happened because I thought you were going off of something I said in response to Jai’s comment ([…]”was the adult Catelyn anywhere in the same kingdom as the adult Cersei when she was recalling that memory?[…]”) as part of the theory that Catelyn was physically around when Cersei received her prophecy, asking to check the books. In response, I said I didn’t think so because there’s no mention of Catelyn traveling to Lannisport as a child.

    I was assuming that Magy was telling Young Cersei about a “little brother” she already knew, not a guy she wouldn’t meet until much later in life. The younger of the two Clegane boys fit the bill. He’d be close by, right next door, and likely on the Lannister property quite a bit. I was also assuming a pre-teen highborn girl like Cersei would lead a somewhat sheltered life, and wouldn’t be traveling all over the place meeting strangers.

    I think I see more clearly what you mean! I’m sorry for the misunderstanding! I got my wires crossed 🙁

  92. Jai,

    The Catelyn/Brienne quote is eventually going to turn out to be either a really blatant clue or sneaky misdirection from GRRM. But it’s fun to speculate about this stuff anyway.

    Yes, I think that quote in and of itself is pretty suspicious because it is kind of easy to miss and forget about while, at the same time, it shares so much with the wording of Maggy’s prophecy. I have a feeling it does have something to do with valonqar but I don’t know how.

    Thanks for answering Ten Bears’ question. I wasn’t entirely sure about the specific details.

    No problem!! 🙂

  93. Efi:
    Ten Bears,

    “As grammarian King Stannis would point out, the prophecy as worded specifically refers to “his hands” (masculine). GRRM could have easily phrased it differently if he intended to embrace both genders, e.g., he could have avoided using the pronoun “his.””

    ……
    As the language geek that I am, I have to point out that for non-english natives who come from countries where nouns have three genders and accusative and pronouns all follow declination and gender, like mine, adjusting a neutral —the/a/one– to the possessive pronoun and vice-versa is a pain in the a**. As in:

    “One should choose math studies if it fits his intellect”
    See what I mean? Why “his” and not “her”? Why not “one’s”?
    You need to know this information in advance, which you don’t, because I did not give you that.
    One of my English Grammar books said that it’s wrong to follow with him/her/his/hers when it’s not indicated which gender is meant. The correct follow-up would be, technically, the same, meaning in this case, “one’s”.
    But the same author admitted that it usually doesn’t happen neither in written nor in spoken language. We tend to use him/her/his/hers without any justification, but admittedly it makes our lives easier.

    Which is why I don’t think that Stannis’ argument is correct. He’s a sophist in reality, set out to prove sth that’s not necessarily there.
    The correct in this case should be “the valonqar shall warp his/her hands around your throat”, since we don’t know what gender a valonqar is. 😁

    [of course Martin couldn’t write his/hers in the text!]

    Ooh, grammatical rabbit holes to burrow down into! 🕳 🐇

    • First example:

    “One should choose math studies if it fits his intellect”

    I don’t know why “his” was used. That’s kind of outdated. The correct pronoun ought to be “one’s” like you suggested or “his or her” but both of those sound awkward.

    It gets worse: Lately, more and more journalists and writers (here in the U.S.) are starting to use “their” as a substitute for “his or her” – e.g., when the gender isn’t known. So now a plural form is being used as a stand-in for a singular form. It makes sentences sound silly when read or spoken, and is f*cking confusing.

    🐇 Follow me down a little further if you’re so inclined … 🕳 🐇
    I am ultra progressive. I try to be sensitive to expressions of gender fluid self-identifications. Still, it’s a challenge because nowadays “their” is often the preferred pronoun for folks who transition, or who view the gender spectrum as encompassing multiple gradients rather than simple binary choice of male on one end and female on the other, with nothing in between. (I hope I’m making sense.)
    Adopting “their” as a universal pronoun and ditching “his or her” isn’t a bad idea in theory. I just wish some linguist would come up with a new pronoun so we don’t have to use the plural “their” when referring to a single person of any sex.
    (I remember when “Ms.” was introduced as an alternative to or in addition to “Miss” and “Mrs.” There’s got to be a new one-syllable gender-neutral singular pronoun we can all learn to use, instead of asking “their” to do all the work.)

    • By the way, isn’t “math studies” plural? If so, your sample sentence should start: “One should choose math studies if they fit…”

    Caveat: English is so f*cked up that some plural words are treated like singular words for grammatical purposes. I’m sure I’ve seen a list somewhere…
    A bigger problem is that a certain Twitter user who purports to know “the best words” consistently screws up his pronouns so that a bastardized form of English is infecting 40% of America.

    It’s a sh*tshow, I tell you, a sh*tshow!

    ——
    to be continued…

  94. Efi:
    Adrianacandle,
    Of course the ending comes from Martin and a lot -perhaps most- fans are displeased with the straight-up-portrayed-as-hero of the story turning out to be an evil dictator that has to be assassinated by her ex-lover in order for the story to conclude.

    I don’t understand why some people continue to push this false narrative when all evidence points to the exact opposite. And Danerys was never the hero of the story. She’s done heroic things, but she has also done terrible things.

  95. Ten Bears,

    “By the way, isn’t “math studies” plural? If so, your sample sentence should start: “One should choose math studies if they fit…””

    Yeees, but which does the pulling? 😂
    There is one phenomenon, in my language it is called “the pulling”. It’s about one word defining what follows in terms of plural/singular and declension, ignoring the context where this word is found.
    Although I have to admit that I didn’t think that much of it and the result above came out after lots of cut/pastes and corrections, lol.
    Meaning
    Mathematics is a word in plural (the -s- in the end) because it comes from Greek and there it is plural. However, is “mathematics are” correct in English? I think (🙄) I learned it in singular, because it’s one subject.
    I don’t know, I have to check. But for me it did the pulling. Is also “math studies” one subject, mathematics holding it together? (should it be “holding them”? –what a headache!)
    But I’m most probably wrong because “math studies are” also sounds good to me.

    As for other genders, I have absolutely no idea. I think linguists are picking up such things and there will be some new suggestion in the new books and there will dispute among them about such things.
    The spoken language tends to adapt many things to reality, but not all adaptations are correct and I tend to disagree with many of them. Language always followed nature but now there are those who seek to subject it to subjective perception. I don’t know if it’s right, but I do know that language will not heed the bidings of anyone (linguists included). It just evolves on its own.

  96. Young Dragon: I don’t understand why some people continue to push this false narrative when all evidence points to the exact opposite. And Danerys was never the hero of the story. She’s done heroic things, but she has also done terrible things.

    Dany was not the only character to threaten to burn cities to the ground though. Nor was she the only one to do both good and bad things. The only difference is that Dany was a Targaryen. I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but I think this is one of the factors that frustrated some people. Cersei threatened to burn cities to the ground and actually did it in season 6 episode 10, yet everyone was still cool with her ruling afterwards and no one was comparing her to Hitler.

    In the season four finale, Cersei has a tense confrontation with her father Tywin. She doesn’t want to marry Loras Tyrell, and she is terrified of leaving Tommen behind in King’s Landing with Margaery. Cersei bursts out: “I will burn our house to the ground before I let that happen.”

    Early in season five, Cersei receives a threatening message from Dorne regarding Myrcella. While telling Jaime that he has to go rescue her, Cersei says “I will burn their cities to the ground if they touch her.” This sentiment was very similar to the threat she gave her father just a few episodes before.

    Later in season five, Cersei has an emotional conversation with Tommen. He is worried because Margaery has been imprisoned and he feels powerless. When Cersei promises to help him, she explains the lengths to which she would go for his happiness. “I would do anything for you,” she says. “Anything to keep you from harm. I would burn cities to the ground.”

    Jaime told Edmure that Cersei would “burn cities to ash” for her children.

    In the end, the difference turned out to be Danys Targaryen genes, which, IMO, isn’t very compelling.

  97. Efi,

    ”…The correct in this case should be “the valonqar shall warp his/her hands around your throat”, since we don’t know what gender a valonqar is.”

    ————
    🐇🐇 🕳

    • Arghhhh! The dreaded slash! (E.g., in “his/her” and “and/or.”) I got reamed out for using it once and have never done it again.
    An expert linguist called it “execrable.” You can’t tell if it’s conjunctive, disjunctive, or both. It can render a simple sentence hopelessly ambiguous.
    Does “his/her” mean “his or her” or “his and her”? Sometimes it’s hard to tell.

    • Like you observed, GRRM couldn’t (and wouldn’t) write “his/hers” in the text. No decent author would write dialogue as if he’s a dime-store ambulance chaser, no self-respecting fortune teller would talk like that, and no fiction reader would stand for that ambiguity.

    Again, if we go back to using “his or her” in your sample sentence, it sounds just as awkward, e.g., “the Valonqar shall wrap his or her hands around your throat.”

    • Young Cersei would get bent out of shape if she heard that:

    F*ck off Magy! Which is it! Girl or boy! One or the other. There’s no middle ground.
    “Can’t say. It’s not gender specific.”
    ”Pffft. Magy the Fraud…”
    “Don’t look at me. It’s not my fau…”
    (Young Cersei impales Magy with stiletto)
    ”When you play the game of pronouns, you win or you die. There’s no middle ground.”

    [Sorry… So so very sorry .😬]

    • If GRRM intended to obscure the gender or leave it ambiguous, he could have phrased the prophecy without using “his or her” or “his/her” as in your corrected version: “the valonqar shall warp [sic] his/her hands around your throat”, since we don’t know what gender.”

    He could’ve written something like this (well, better than this):

    “And after you have drowned in your tears, you will choke to death with the Valonqar’s hands wrapped around your pale white throat.”

    or “…. the Valonqar’s hands will wrap around your throat and choke the life out of you.”

    – Final Comments:

    • GRRM described the Valonqar using “his hands.” Masculine. Nothing ambiguous or deceptive. Plain and simple.
    • The only in-universe translation of the Valyrian word “Valonqar” is “little brother.” Not little sibling. Not little brother or sister. Not little brother and/or sister. Not little brother/sister.
    • That an entirely different Valyrian word for “prince” is gender neutral and can therefore also mean “princess” does not mean that every Valyrian word can “go both ways.” Nothing remotely suggests this is the case.
    • That dragons have no specific biological gender has nothing to do with human beings.
    • Arya to Tywin S2: “Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had a Valyrian steel sword she called Dark Sister.”
    Visenya didn’t call her VS sword “Dark Brother or Sister” or “Dark Sibling.”
    Like virtually every language in every culture, there are distinct words denoting gender to describe a family’s male progeny and female progeny. There’s nothing to suggest that the Valyrians’ language or the Valyrians themselves were unisex.
    • From a pure storytelling standpoint, if this prophecy that on its face refers to one specific “brother” could be contorted, expanded and reinterpreted to encompass just about any male or female, how would that possibly be narratively satisfying?
    That’d make the Valonqar prophecy equivalent to a useless prognostication like: “You will be killed by someone who has or had an older sibling.”

  98. Young Dragon,

    Beats me! I have friends who don’t want to discuss any of it -actually none of them does.
    I say yes, but Daenerys has been threatening… –it doesn’t matter what she said! how could this happen! — but it showed… — nothing showed, not ever in 8 seasons! –end of “discussion”, lol.
    My friends are truly, genuinely hurt by the ending of GoT.

    It’s for laughs, actually. Everything was there, even the Nazi imagery (they didn’t even have to do that, but if they searched for imperial imagery, they’d do something very close to what we’ve seen). I suppose that most people don’t take well to the hero-turn-villain trope. To be fair, it’s a difficult trope designed to shock the reader/viewer. If it’s done well, it can be an excellent ride for a reader/viewer! It can be foreshadowed or not, but I think the bottom line is, people don’t generally like this trope (perhaps because it feels a bit like cheating).
    But if it’s satisfying, why not? It’s fiction after all.
    Also, lots of people tended to identify with Daenerys because they bought into the rhetoric of the victim (think of her speech to Jon in 7.3); Daenerys finally sitting in the Iron Throne would be the vindication of the victim, which is what we all want, right? Justice for the victims. That’s what we want.
    But in this many ignored the threats and the dragons and so many other sings (e.g. the dialog with Hizdar in season 5).
    Martin is telling a much more complicated story. It’s not just about the vindication of the victim, it’s about choice and method; his characters are shaped and forged through choice and method to end up where they will. Sometimes their methods define their choices and vice versa.
    This is why in the end I do not think that any of them will be innocent, I do not think that there will be black and white characters, everyone shall be grey. It works for me and I do like complicated narratives, but that’s just me.

  99. Ten Bears: The dreaded slash! (E.g., in “his/her” and “and/or.”) I got reamed out for using it once and have never done it again.
    An expert linguist called it “execrable.” You can’t tell if it’s conjunctive, disjunctive, or both. It can render a simple sentence hopelessly ambiguous.

    I will remember this (I am also a slasher…) — but would it be okay to use in our mini essays here??? D:

  100. Mr Derp,

    ”In the end, the difference turned out to be Dany’s Targaryen genes, which, IMO, isn’t very compelling.

    No, it wasn’t. Hereditary mental illness? Blah.

    Oh, and there was this supposed difference,
    [paraphrasing] S7e7 Tyrion to Cersei, about Dany:

    “The difference is that she has advisors who can rein in her worst impulses.”
    🤪🤣😂😁😄

    F*ckin’ Tyrion.

  101. Adrianacandle: I will remember this (I am also a slasher…) — but would it be okay to use in our mini essays here??? D:

    Hang on. Let me summon Stannis from the spirit world….

    A: Slashes are fine EXCEPT for “and/or.”

  102. Ten Bears,

    Respect!
    You’re a true sophist, TB!
    I don’t know. I just understand that the prophecies are meant to blur the waters.
    If there is such ambiguity left hanging in the text, it will become apparent in the next books. Someone in-universe will note what this Valyrian language is, and then we’ll know what was the catch! In fact, if Martin is vaguely aware of the debate his prophecies have triggered (I believe he is), he’ll probably make sure to dissolve such doubts by the end of the book (if he ever finishes the damn thing).
    Also, the highborn Westerosi are supposed to know a bit of high Valyrian. It’s like knowing Latin. Tyrion does, so does Arya. Does Cersei? I think she had to ask what “valonqar” was, but I might misremember things.

    However, I’d like the idea that a woman might fit the description -I suppose that’s because Cersei in the books loathes other women, and it’s very obvious in her own chapters. For her arc it would be very unexpected and a payoff to her own crimes against them -and I do mean Sansa and Arya.
    The Lannister brothers both are too obvious, not that I would mind.
    Euron might also fit the description. (just because he can, lol).

  103. Ten Bears: A: Slashes are fine EXCEPT for “and/or.”

    But that’s my favourite slash!!

    Would Stannis be open to hearing an appeal?

  104. Efi: However, I’d like the idea that a woman might fit the description -I suppose that’s because Cersei in the books loathes other women, and it’s very obvious in her own chapters.

    This is something I hadn’t considered and something I’d quite like about a female valonqar 🙂

    (Probably in the same way that I enjoy the idea of Brienne being the more beautiful “another” referring to inner beauty rather than physical beauty, as lame as that sounds, because it also uses Cersei’s own vanity against her).

  105. Ten Bears:
    Mr Derp,

    ”In the end, the difference turned out to be Dany’s Targaryen genes, which, IMO, isn’t very compelling.

    No, it wasn’t. Hereditary mental illness? Blah.

    Oh, and there was this supposed difference,
    [paraphrasing] S7e7 Tyrion to Cersei, about Dany:

    “The difference is that she has advisors who can rein in her worst impulses.”🤪🤣😂😁😄

    F*ckin’ Tyrion.

    🙂

    I think seasons 1-4 Tyrion would’ve pimp-slapped the heck out of seasons 5-8 Tyrion. They were like two completely different people.

    Of course, Tyrion killing his father would contribute to a major change in character development, but I didn’t think it would affect his intelligence and judgement as much as it seemed to me.

    Maybe Varys and Illyrio actually killed Tyrion between seasons 4-5 and we were left with an imposter Tyrion afterwards. Like the McCartney is dead rumors from back in the day.

  106. Mr Derp,

    My argument centers around how Danerys is not the hero of the story, and if you disagree with that, perhaps your best course of action isn’t to compare her to Cersei.

    You’re absolutely right. Danerys isn’t the only character that has done both good and bad things. That’s what makes the series so great! Other characters like this include Jaime, Theon, Stannis, and Arya. I don’t consider any of these characters heroes of the story either.

    Yes, like Danerys, Cersei threatened to burn cities to the ground, and ended blowing up a piece of King’s Landing, but I’m not sure what you’re point is. People most certainly were not cool with Cersei ruling, hence why most of the kingdoms turned against her.

    I’m not sure what you mean by “the only difference is that Danerys is a Targaryen.” Are you talking about why people are upset with her burning down King’s Landing, because that is definitely not the reason.

  107. Ten Bears,

    Re: Arya blaming Cersei for Ned,

    I just remembered a passage that kind of dissolves my argument. In the passage detailing the moments before Ned’s execution:

    A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey … no, King Joffrey … stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. “My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father.” He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!”

    The crowd roared, and Arya felt the statue of Baelor rock as they surged against it. The High Septon clutched at the king’s cape, and Varys came rushing over waving his arms, and even the queen was saying something to him, but Joffrey shook his head. Lords and knights moved aside as he stepped through, tall and fleshless, a skeleton in iron mail, the King’s Justice. Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit.

    So while Arya would not have had access to the conversations going over what Cersei and Tywin wanted to do with Ned, that they didn’t want him killed, she heard this declaration from Joffrey. If she hadn’t heard this, I think it’d make her mistaken perception a bit more understandable — however, I suppose it’s possible that Arya didn’t take this statement in fully when Joffrey said it due to the heightened emotion.

    But I think your point stands (that Arya blaming Cersei for this, at least, isn’t quite fair but I think it has less to do with what’s fair and more to do with some of the irrationality surrounding hatred).

  108. Mr Derp,

    I think the difference turned out to be the dragons. (method)
    Cersei had wildfire (method) and burned the Sept with all the nobility of KL in it. She did it for vanquishing her political adversaries. (motive-answers to the “why”)
    The rest is the producers’ effort to bring out that she was a loving mother, although I do not understand why loving mothers need to burn the world for proving their love for their children. I also do not remember those threats of Cersei coming from the books and I can’t bear to look into her chapters.

    But I do admit that Daenerys’ motive didn’t come through in the show. The method though -oh, what a method! She ploughed the city of KL with dragonfire, street by street.
    By wanting to show that she suffered, that her rage came from what she had been through, they meant to whitewash her -imo only- and soften the blow for her fans; that she didn’t do it because of calculation -which would prove that she was a villain- she did it out of pain, which means that she was “crazy” either because of trauma or because of genes, as you say, which mitigates the circumstances of her crime (the first she can’t cope with, the second she has no control over). Imputation of liability is considerably reduced if the perpetrator is “crazy” (which is why many criminals go for it in their defense).
    The final dialog with Jon made this even worse. Having her remember that she once was “a little girl” after the massacre only baffled the viewers more. Talking about a new world after having wiped out an old world -whaaaat!?

    I think these were unfortunate choices on the part of the producers. They could bring it about better, and I don’t think time was an issue.
    But I disagree when people say that it was unexpected. The difference has always been that Daenerys had dragons and as the dragons grew so did the damage they could cause. Many cheered in the field of fire II (7.4). If you notice, that’s mostly from Jamie’s PoV. Many cheered when she burned the Yunkai’i in 6.9. They also cheered with the “burn the castles” speech in 6.8. (I didn’t cheer any of these, tbh I was seriously at awe)

    Which is why the producers had the “we cheered for her” speech of Tyrion to Jon in 8.6. They meant to point that out too. It was about handling a weapon of mass destruction, not just about genes. Were the genes problematic or was it that Targs had access to that weapon for centuries? That they inbred for maintaining the magic of their blood, which basically means that they refused to mix with the Westerosi society, thereby keeping themselves above all others -pretty much like gods?

    By making it about Daenerys’ pain the producers softened her agency, while it should have been about her choices -choice to march on KL, choice to dracarys the city. For that to happen they needed to have an adversary that doesn’t just sit on a balcony sipping red vintage from the Arbor.

    In the books, Daenerys is a dictator already; she’s cunning, smart, devious, and even cruel. Proof of that is how she took Astapor and how she dealt with Yunkai. People will say “yes, but masters are evil, and she’s freeing slaves”. That’s true, but her reasons don’t change the methods and the deception that betray a very calculating and devious person that makes certain decisions.
    All that didn’t translate well on screen, but that doesn’t mean that it was totally absent. When the time comes, in the books, for Daenerys to burn KL, it won’t be because she’s crazy, or in pain, it will be because she has chosen it; she will have chosen to use the nuclear deterrent.
    However, I believe that they tried to include even this in the show, in her speech to the army after the catastrophe; not very successfully (its impact was again diminished by the “I am in pain”/”I am a little girl” effect), but the logic is “bent the knee or die”, which was said to the Tarlys in 7.5.
    Now the entire world knows what dragons can do, so it boils down to what the North -Jon- will do about this.
    Jon ignored the dragon, he went for its master.

  109. Young Dragon,

    ”…Danerys isn’t the only character that has done both good and bad things. That’s what makes the series so great! Other characters like this include Jaime, Theon, Stannis, and Arya. I don’t consider any of these characters heroes of the story either.“

    What you talkin bout YD!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6qeMe7-vM

    When has Arya done “bad things?”

    How can the Hero of Winterfell not be considered a hero of the story?

    Respectfully,
    ASNAWP Anti-Defamation League

  110. Young Dragon: My argument centers around how Danerys is not the hero of the story, and if you disagree with that, perhaps your best course of action isn’t to compare her to Cersei.

    I didn’t say or imply that Dany is a hero. I thought I was pretty clear with what I was trying to get across and I think you’re going a bit out of your way to misunderstand me. This is usually why you and I have problems having conversations.

    Efi seemed to understand me just fine even if there is a disagreement and responded without trying to belittle what I said or repeatedly saying “you’re not sure what my point is”. It’s just rude and initiates acrimony for no reason.

  111. Efi,

    In the books, Daenerys is a dictator already; she’s cunning, smart, devious, and even cruel. Proof of that is how she took Astapor and how she dealt with Yunkai. People will say “yes, but masters are evil, and she’s freeing slaves”. That’s true, but her reasons don’t change the methods and the deception that betray a very calculating and devious person that makes certain decisions.

    Well, Dany is a conqueror but this isn’t all that she is and there’s another side to these traits. Dany also feels deep guilt over what happened with Astapor, that’s one of the reasons why she rejects violence for much of ADWD because she doesn’t want to create another Astapor and spends much of ADWD making compromises and sacrifices that she finds painful on personally moral level. She also goes against Barristan’s advice to sail for Westeros right away because she feels she needs to help Meereen heal and this is her duty. Even Adam Feldman, who predicted a darker Daenerys, acknowledges Dany’s compassion, a genuine desire for peace, and a drive to right the world’s wrongs.

    Quotes to support the above:

    “Your Grace, may I speak frankly?”

    “Always.”

    “There is a third choice.”

    “Westeros?”

    He nodded. “I am sworn to serve Your Grace, and to keep you safe from harm wherever you may go. My place is by your side, whether here or in King’s Landing… but your place is back in Westeros, upon the Iron Throne that was your father’s. The Seven Kingdoms will never accept Hizdahr zo Loraq as king.”

    “No more than Meereen will accept Daenerys Targaryen as queen. The Green Grace has the right of that. I need a king beside me, a king of old Ghiscari blood. Elsewise they will always see me as the uncouth barbarian who smashed through their gates, impaled their kin on spikes, and stole their wealth.”

    “In Westeros you will be the lost child who returns to gladden her father’s heart. Your people will cheer when you ride by, and all good men will love you.”

    “Westeros is far away.”

    “Lingering here will never bring it any closer. The sooner we take our leave of this place—”

    “I know. I do.” Dany did not know how to make him see. She wanted Westeros as much as he did, but first she must heal Meereen. “Ninety days is a long time. Hizdahr may fail. And if he does, the trying buys me time. Time to make alliances, to strengthen my defenses, to—”
    “And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?”
    “Her duty.” The word felt cold upon her tongue.

    The Shavepate disagreed. “If you had taken the Unsullied south to Hazzat, the Sons of the Harpy—”

    “I know. I know. It is Eroeh all over again.”

    Brown Ben Plumm was puzzled. “Who is Eroeh?”

    “A girl I thought I’d saved from rape and torment. All I did was make it worse for her in the end. And all I did in Astapor was make ten thousand Eroehs.”

    “Your Grace could not have known—”

    “I am the queen. It was my place to know.”

    “We curse the rain when it falls upon our heads, yet without it we should starve. The world needs rain … and slaves. You make a face, but it is true. Consider Qarth. In art, music, magic, trade, all that makes us more than beasts, Qarth sits above the rest of mankind as you sit at the summit of this pyramid … but below, in place of bricks, the magnificence that is the Queen of Cities rests upon the backs of slaves. Ask yourself, if all men must grub in the dirt for food, how shall any man lift his eyes to contemplate the stars? If each of us must break his back to build a hovel, who shall raise the temples to glorify the gods? For some men to be great, others must be enslaved.”

    He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly. “Slavery is not the same as rain,” she insisted. “I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned.”

    D&D too acknowledges Daenerys’s empathy in the Inside the Episode for 4×05:

    Dan Weiss: This scene shows Dany learning a lesson that I think all revolutionaries learned at one point or another, which is that conquering in many ways is a whole lot easier than ruling.

    David Beniof: This is a pivotal moment for Daenerys because for so long, her sole goal was getting back to Westeros, conquering Westeros, sitting on the Iron Throne, and becoming the queen that she believes she has every right to be. And now she has the opportunity.

    Dan Weiss: She’s driven by a kind of a deep empathy — a much deeper empathy than probably anybody else on the show. It’s something that makes her as charismatic as she is to people because they can sense the sincerity of it. Her empathy allows her to look at the people of Westeros and say ‘Why the hell would they ever follow me if I haven’t proven myself through my actions to be somebody worth following? Why would they let me rule if I hadn’t proven myself to be someone who has ruled well somewhere else?’

    Not to say that Dany going dark and razing King’s Landing is impossible but she’s not just a cunning, devious, and cruel dictator who is driven by want for power. Her compassion for the oppressed is genuine, she has experienced it herself, and she’s also looking for a place in the world in which she feels she fits and can wield the power to right the wrongs of the world (as she seems them). However, the question may be who Dany views as the oppressed and deserving of help.

    When the time comes, in the books, for Daenerys to burn KL, it won’t be because she’s crazy, or in pain, it will be because she has chosen it; she will have chosen to use the nuclear deterrent.

    And I’m hoping in the books, it’s not just a matter of Dany choosing violence ala Cersei because she wants the throne. I think this would be making Dany a bit too one-dimensional and flattening her character. I’m hoping it’s far more nuanced and there’s some inner struggle and consideration if this is a decision.

    As Martin said,

    It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at.

    Now the entire world knows what dragons can do, so it boils down to what the North -Jon- will do about this.
    Jon ignored the dragon, he went for its master.

    Well, even here, Jon didn’t want to kill Dany and wanted to give her that last chance, still not feeling killing her was right despite it all. Which I think is another example of a terrible inner struggle. Doing what is right for the rest of the world may not feel right on a personal level.

    However, I believe that they tried to include even this in the show, in her speech to the army after the catastrophe; not very successfully (its impact was again diminished by the “I am in pain”/”I am a little girl” effect), but the logic is “bent the knee or die”, which was said to the Tarlys in 7.5.

    I thought Dany’s speech and her words to Jon afterward were more a case of Extremist Idealism or Utopia Justifies the Means since Daenerys truly believes what she’s done is good, that she has liberated the people, that destruction is necessary to build a better world.

    I don’t think the two scenes necessarily contradict because Dany seems to believe what she’s doing is right, which makes her all the more dangerous since she doesn’t see what she’s done as wrong — which I think adds another layer to this.

    I don’t think this was done to whitewash Daenerys or soften the blow for her fans (I think that ship sailed when she demolished King’s Landing and justified it) but to explore the idea of idealism taken to its most extreme, which might be an idea GRRM could be planning to explore with Daenerys’s storyline. However, I think the execution was kind of jarring in the show.

  112. Ten Bears,

    I figured that would catch your attention. Arya’s “crimes” were more about the execution. Killing Meryn Trant was understandable, but the brutality of it was way over the top. The same with feeding Walder Frey his own sons. She also threatened her sister at Winterfell. But yes, killing the Night King was certainly heroic, but the good doesn’t wipe out the bad, nor the bad, the good.

  113. Mr Derp,

    Like I said, my argument centered around how Danerys wasn’t the hero, and you tried to refute it by comparing her to Cersei. If I misunderstood something, I apologize and would like to understand your point, but you must take some responsibility in not making your message clearer.

  114. Young Dragon,

    ”Arya’s “crimes” were more about the execution.”

    • Okay. So to start with, it’s undisputed the culprits were guilty of grievous offenses and deserved their punishment. You just have a problem with how she imposed their sentences.
    Bear in mind that in her world, “there is no justice in this world unless we make it.”

    ”Killing Meryn Trant was understandable, but the brutality of it was way over the top.”

    Not really. All she had was a little oyster knife. She had to incapacitate him and mute him. She also needed to identify herself and explain to him why his pervfest was turning into his execution.
    In any event, MFT was a sadistic pedophile who liked to beat and rape little girls. He punched Sansa in the face and stomach. Sorry. I have no sympathy for pedophile f*ckwits. He got just and fair punishment.

    ”The same with feeding Walder Frey his own sons.
    Violation of Guest Right is such a grievous crime that you gotta eat your sons. Cut her some slack. They weren’t easy to carve. Especially Black Walder. Rewatch the Red Wedding and take another look at what Walder’s damn moron sons did to Catelyn Stark and pregnant Talisa and her unborn child, and then tell me their punishment didn’t fit their crimes.

    ”She also threatened her sister at Winterfell.”
    That was not Arya. I don’t know who that was.
    Must have been a clone.

    ”But yes, killing the Night King was certainly heroic…”
    Sure was!

    ”but the good doesn’t wipe out the bad, nor the bad, the good.”
    Who says so? That’s a bullsh*t platitude.
    Arya had no “bad” to wipe out anyway.

    👸🏻

  115. Ten Bears,

    Though he should’ve bisected Cersei when she flitted down the stairs right by him. I’m still not sure why they filmed it that way…

    As you of all commenters needn’t any reminding, in the previous Sandor scene he had told Arya — in blunt terms even by the standards of their dialogs!– that Cersei was certainly going to die, very violently, and very soon. He then admonished Arya to waste none of her own precious escape time on pursuing the good-as-dead Cersei.

    Furthermore, Sandor had made it very clear he was going up to kill his brother, and when he finally did lay eyes on Gregor, there was no way he would let his gaze wander. Breaking concentration, to kill a woman he already considered to be dead*, might have cost him his entire reason for going.

    For the audience, Cersei’s light-footed trot past Sandor made for a brief chuckle, at least for our viewing party. By that point, we’d had — what, twenty continuous minutes? — of rape, pillage, and mass slaughter of innocents, with more Dragon strafings in the background. That’s the darkest sequence in a series infamous for them, and we were just about to witness the long-awaited Cleganebowl, another gore-fest horror show of grunting, beatings, and bloodshed. Everyone needed a small laugh at that moment.

    *Thinking about it just now, that’s another great parallel: Sandor tells Arya not to waste her time killing a woman who is as good as dead, and then Sandor throws his own life away trying to kill a man who is already dead! The writing of this story continues to amaze me, a year after it ended.

  116. Young Dragon,

    I think Mr. Derp is saying that the execution of the burning of KL by Daenerys was not satisfying as it portrayed her burning an entire city for absolutely no good reason which could then be attributed to… well, to Targ genes.
    I think it’s a simple way of putting things but you might find that this interpretation encapsulates even though compressed the feelings and interpretations of many fans outside this site (because I think that we’ve taken our interpretations to higher levels).
    I generally agree that this part lacked courage on the part of the producers. They chose the line of “when a Targaryen is born, the gods cast a coin” for building the story on, or at least that’s what many fans might have understood. I will refer you to my post about it for the rest.

    But I have to say that the structure of the story is such, that each character is a foil or a parallel to someone else. The books take the heroes and put them in dire circumstances for the reader to see how they will react and the producers very consciously tried to show that on screen. With the rulers it’s how they will react to holding absolute power. Cersei, Stannis, Joffrey, Daenerys, even Robert in the beginning and certainly Jon are foils and/or (sorry TB!) parallels to each other, so they are bound to be compared.
    Cersei and Daenerys in particular have what others don’t have, power of destructive forces, wildfire and dragons respectively. While Cersei has been threatening to burn the city (I repeat I don’t remember such threats in the book -perhaps someone can enlighten me- and the producers here were obliged to show the author’s intent, meaning that she was that violent), in the end she didn’t do anything -didn’t activate the wildfire- while Daenerys who wanted to “save” it actually bombed it. This, I suppose, is a call on Aerys’ “burn them all” madness. Foils.

    The difference is that Targaryens always had dragons and relied on them for ruling. The country wasn’t unified with friendly negotiations, it was unified with dragons. It’s the nuclear deterrent that Martin has spoken about in his interviews. So Daenerys in the end decided to use that deterrent and show the world what she could do, unlike Cersei, who stood on the balcony sipping wine.

  117. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ” As you of all commenters needn’t any reminding, in the previous Sandor scene he had told Arya — in blunt terms even by the standards of their dialogs!– that Cersei was certainly going to die, very violently, and very soon. He then admonished Arya to waste none of her own precious escape time on pursuing the good-as-dead Cersei.”

    Ah, Tensor the Contrarian!

    Okay, I will look at that sequence again.

    The way I saw it, Sandor could’ve swatted her like a fly without averting his gaze from his lunkhead ZombieBrother. Sandor had just cut down three Kingsguard like he was carving a cake. Or as if they were three Meryn Trants.

    Yes, Sandor had just told Arya Cersei was “certainly going to die, very violently, and very soon.” Perhaps the fire would get her; or one of the Dothraki; or maybe the dragon would eat her. (None of which happened, by the way. Had the cave-in not blocked the basement passageway, Cersei might well have escaped.)

    Sandor could’ve quickly administered death to Cersei “very violently, and very soon” as he’d assured Arya.

    Come on now: It would have taken one second for Sandor to bisect her, and maybe two seconds to get off a snarky parting shot. (“The Starks send their regards” was a popular fandom prediction. I’d have preferred a S1 callback, something like “Remember that ‘filthy little animal’ who went poof?”)

    Arya had vowed “I’m going to kill her!” Sandor persuaded Arya – first brusquely (“Look at me!”) and then gently, to abort her mission, telling her “if you come with me, you die here.”

    Fine. He then had a chance to fulfill Arya’s objective on her behalf – with the added bonus of crossing two names off Arya’s List, and one off his own list, as he’d suggested when he first heard her reciting her nightly prayer in S3.

    I was not thrilled with “Cleganebowl” to begin with. I just felt that Cersei scooting right by Sandor unmolested was a head-scratching moment. Why would she even risk it? Why would he not take a shot? Considering the rather cheesy way Cersei later perished, don’t you kind of wish she’d had a more dramatic final exit on that staircase?

    However, I’ll take another look at the scene…

    ___
    P.S. Tinfoil Missed Opportunity:

    Sandor: “Hello, big brother.”
    UnGregor: “Hello, Little Brother.”
    (Cersei freaks. As she tries to run by Sandor, he grabs her by the throat and starts squeezing …)

  118. Young Dragon: I don’t understand why some people continue to push this false narrative when all evidence points to the exact opposite. And Danerys was never the hero of the story. She’s done heroic things, but she has also done terrible things.

    I think when it comes down to mass audience, a significant percentage of people watch TV shows just for their favorites, more than often not even caring about the “grand story aspect”. I generally try to avoid fandoms but I still saw enough comments and such on web in the period from 2011 to 2019 to conclude that. I can give you an example of three of my online friends Ryan, Irene and Monica… all three of them being big Dany fans and they all actively watched GoT. Two of them, Ryan and Irene, loved the ending and they loved “The Bells” as an episode, despite being big Dany fans. I remember having conversation with them about it and they both said they (sadly) felt how Dany’s downfall was bound to happen. But in grand aspect of the story, they appreciated this twist. My other friend Monica on other hand, she pretty much cared for only Jon and Dany… she believed them to be THE story. And at same time, she believes that at the end of every story, no matter how twisted and dark it is overall, there has to be happily ever after because that’s what audience deserves… that all top-tier characters need to survive and achieve firm happines for the rest of their lives while all bad guys, even if they redeemed themselves through the story, need to die because “they dont’ deserve to live”. If one of the main protagonists dies, she would label that “they deserved better” So her only way of how the story should unfold is Dany and Jon marrying and having kids and she’s pissed at writers for “betraying the audience”. ANd I believe there are a lot of people like Monica out there… people who cared only about “what” happens to their favorites.

    Efi,

    You summarized it well here regarding that there’s more than often “what” and not “how” that’s the usual reason for mass audience’s displeasure. Something I wonder about is if people, who were displeased with ending, were asked to rewrite these final chapters of the story to their satisfaction but under condition that Dany’s downfall remains in the story. I’m very much sure a lot of people would struggle or they would just label this as “not a good story”.

  119. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ”Breaking concentration, to kill a woman he already considered to be dead*….
    ….

    “*Thinking about it just now, that’s another great parallel: Sandor tells Arya not to waste her time killing a woman who is as good as dead, and then Sandor throws his own life away trying to kill a man who is already dead! The writing of this story continues to amaze me, a year after it ended.”

    Yes, he did throw his own life away trying to kill a man who’d already dead.

    My fanfic ending for Sandor would have been more meaningful, with an element of self-sacrifice, e.g., going out in a literal and figurative blaze of glory defending his surrogate daughters, followed by a tear-jerker moment when the dying Sandor utters his last words to them: “Remember where the heart is”.

    While I’m not sure I’d call the writing of Sandor’s
    wasteful death “amazing,” or that chopping down Cersei would require “breaking concentration,” I don’t necessarily disagree with you about the narrative decision. For me, Sandor’s final talk with Arya impressed upon her that he was too far gone; revenge had fully consumed him. It was too late for him to turn back – but not for her.

    On one hand, it kind of sucked that after his “second chance” at life, he ultimately threw it away in a senseless death. After all, it seemed that he had bought into Ray’s sermon that it was never too late to stop killing people and start helping people; and then was persuaded by Beric’s recruitment pitch: “You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane; it’s not too late for you.”

    On the other hand, if I can steal a line from a movie: “You know, sometimes there ain’t no forgettin’…” As disappointing as it was that Sandor was irretrievably consumed by his desire for revenge, the show made it clear in the post-battle party in S8e4 that Sandor just couldn’t let it go. When he turned down a comely waitress’ no-strings attached invitation to join her for a frolic, that was a signal that he had lost the capacity to enjoy life. Sansa questioned why he rebuffed the waitress: “She could have made you happy.” Sandor’s reply that “only one thing” could make him happy, followed by his pronouncement to Arya as they rode away from WF that he wouldn’t be coming back, pretty much sealed the deal.

    “You don’t want to be like me” was the message imparted to Arya. Sure, he could’ve aborted his mission too and embraced life instead of certain death. He could have helped Arya run through the gauntlet of Dany’s Inferno, and accompanied her on her seafaring adventures. I suppose that kind of Disneyfied ending would have been even more “fan servicey” than Cleganebowl.

    The show chose not to transform the Hound into a neutered puppy dog. Some might say that his fatal obsession with getting even with Gregor (even after Gregor wasn’t really Gregor anymore) made Sandor a tragic figure. I can’t argue with that narrative decision. Just as with Sandor’s attempt to join the peace, love and Frisbee hippie commune (“how did that work out?” – Beric 🤔), a violent death in a brutal fight against his asshat brother had already fixed a long time ago. (I take it that’s what he was referring to when he got in ZombieGregor’s face in the S7e7 dragonpit encounter (“you’ve always known” who (or what) is coming for you.”)

    Oh, to steal another line from a different movie: “People can’t escape their nature.” Even if they know it thwarts a happy ending (or may lead to their doom).

    So yeah, I suppose you may be right that on some level there was a deliberate parallel – or contrast – between Sandor’s “save yourself, she’s as good as dead” advice to Arya, and the contradictory, self-destructive decision he made for himself.

    P.S. I always figured Sandor, having cheated death or having been given a reprieve by the god or gods, was living on borrowed time anyway. His death was a pre-ordained event in-universe, and in his own mind.

  120. Ten Bears,

    The gender issue is moot, isn’t it? Even if it means “little sibling” and not “little brother” (and there is zero evidence to this effect), Cersei does not have any younger sisters. Ergo, a prophecy about little siblings is a prophecy about little brothers for her. And Cersei has two of those.

    How did the idea that “valonqar” meant “sibling” instead of “brother” arise, anyway? It is not from the books or the show. (I hope that people are not confusing “prince” with sibling: Martin got that from Latin, where the word for “prince” [which meant something a bit different than the concept for which it was co-opted] was neutral; Latin obvious has very well-known words for “brother” and “sister”!)

  121. Wimsey,

    Actually, I was wrong about one thing: there is not a Latin word for “Sibling”: you had a “brother” or a “sister.” (I had remember “propinquus” as sibling for some reason, but it just means “relative.”) Latin probably is the inspiration for making prince gender neutral in Valyrian; however, there is no reason to think that Valyrian did not have equivalents of frater and soror: that would be highly unusual.

  122. Wimsey: How did the idea that “valonqar” meant “sibling” instead of “brother” arise, anyway? It is not from the books or the show. (I hope that people are not confusing “prince” with sibling: Martin got that from Latin, where the word for “prince” [which meant something a bit different than the concept for which it was co-opted] was neutral; Latin obvious has very well-known words for “brother” and “sister”!)

    From what I’ve seen, the idea that ‘valonqar’ may be gender-neutral has been around for a long time in the ASOIAF fandom. In this debate, it was me (and I believe Efi) who were arguing the case that it might be possible for there to be a female valonqar.

    Of course, the idea that ‘valonqar’ is female could be totally wrong because it’s true (as Ten Bears brought up) that Maggy says ‘his hands’. If you go to this link, you’ll see the basis for the female valonqar theory if that helps out any 🙂 (This is a link to the westeros.org wiki but they require cookies. If you’d rather not go to that site due to the cookies issue, I can screencap the page for you if you’re interested. This page lists the main theories for valonqar, male and female).

  123. Adrianacandle: From what I’ve seen, the idea that ‘valonqar’ may be gender-neutral has been around for a long time in the ASOIAF fandom.

    I don’t remember that one: but, then, I basically dropped out of the fandom after Crows and didn’t return until the show started. Still, I wonder why “Martin lied in the text with Valonqar” idea arose: nothing in the books hints that this might be the case. And given Cersei’s lack of sisters, it’s still pretty moot! (This is also not like Jamie seeing Robb’s book-wife as having thin hips when Catelyn saw her as having good birthing hips: that is very subjective and Jaime’s idea of “good hips” was a middle-aged woman who’d given birth to 3 kids without the benefit of a C-section.)

    So, making it a woman requires both that the word not only not mean brother, but that it not even mean sibling! The only “out” on it would be if GRRM had provided some group for which the title that Cersei would use is “Brother”. Now, there are brotherhoods such as the Nights Watch and Brotherhood of Banners in which the word is used informally: but Cersei and others would never refer to a member as “Brother Jon” or “Brother Beric” in the way that people (used to) refer to monks as, say, Brother Joseph.

    If nothing else, then it’s not a very parsimonious idea: and one thing that we saw in the show over and over for the “big questions” that the books have not yet answered is that the answers tended to be very parsimonious with regard to the information that we already had. (Put another way, the show/books hung Chekhovian guns, and the show fired them. 😀 )

  124. Wimsey: I don’t remember that one: but, then, I basically dropped out of the fandom after Crows and didn’t return until the show started. Still, I wonder why “Martin lied in the text with Valonqar” idea arose: nothing in the books hints that this might be the case. And given Cersei’s lack of sisters, it’s still pretty moot! (This is also not like Jamie seeing Robb’s book-wife as having thin hips when Catelyn saw her as having good birthing hips: that is very subjective and Jaime’s idea of “good hips” was a middle-aged woman who’d given birth to 3 kids without the benefit of a C-section.)

    Perhaps but it’s just a theory. The idea of a female valonquar might be totally wrong. People reference something Maester Aemon saying in AFFC as possibly pertaining to a female valonqar — which may be the reason you missed these theories since you dropped out of the fandom after AFFC. Would that make sense?

    Anyway, I pulled the text from the westeros.org wiki page for your perusal 🙂

    As supporting evidence, a translation error discussed in A Feast for Crows is often cited. According to Maester Aemon, the prophecy about the prince that was promised, which thus far had been interpreted to indicate a man, could have been incorrectly translated. Aemon, because of this, comes to believe that the prophecy could refer to a woman, stating “The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.”.[33] Readers have taken this to indicate that the word used in the prophecy concerning the prince that was promised is gender-neutral, and thus, that there might be more gender-neutral words in the old Valyrian language, with “valonqar” being their candidate.

    David Peterson, who created the High Valyrian used on HBO’s Game of Thrones, has commented on the assumption, claiming that “[Aemon’s quote] says nothing whatever about the gender system of High Valyrian”. He stressed that Aemon, in A Feast for Crows, was speaking about biological gender (i.e., dragons being able to change their gender from male to female, or vice versa), not grammatical gender, and that grammatical and biological gender need not be tied to one another. To explain further, Peterson stated “English is a gender neutral language. We have gendered third person singular pronouns, but outside of that, English has no grammatical genders the way Spanish, French and Italian do. “Prince” is grammatically gender neutral. Semantically, though, it’s male, just as the words “man”, “bachelor”, “father” and “son” are. That these words exist says nothing about the grammatical gender system of English.” According to Peterson, the High Valyrian word originally used in the prophecy that was translated as “prince” in the Common Tongue (i.e. English) can refer to both men and women, with Aemon’s comment referring to the assumption, given the context, that the person prophesied must be male.[34]

    You can take it or leave it! But that’s the basis for this theory.

    For me, the idea of a female valonqar isn’t a hill I’m going to die on. It’s really just an idea I found intriguing but there are also good counterarguments to this idea as well.

    Other than issues with the wording of the prophecy itself, I would doubt that most of theorized female contenders possess the physical strength and hand size to carry out a manual strangulation with their hands (other than Brienne and perhaps the proposed Stoneheart, as theorized by Jai in the above discussion). While I’ve entertained the idea of a female valonqar, I’m more inclined to believe valonqar is likely male.

  125. Adrianacandle,

    Right, but that has nothing to do with the words for “brother” or “sister.” Extending the notion that one gender neutral word that is engendered in other languages means that a language has no engendered words is a classic logical fallacy: i.e., affirming the antecendent. (“If P, then q; q; therefore P!”) Moreover, this premise is easily falsified when applied to real languages: because Latin has “princeps,” either the words “frater” + “soror,” or “puer” + “puella” cannot both exist: there will be just one word for “sibling” or “offspring.” Either my Latin teacher lied to me, or the premise is false!

    At any rate, Cersei has no younger siblings. There is no class of people that she calls “brother.” Assuming that it’s not truly awful writing by Martin, then the statement has to apply to someone that Cersei will think of as “little brother” at the climax: her final thoughts shouldn’t be “I knew Tyrion would kill me!” or “That ‘Little’ brother??”, and not “Woo hoo! The prophecy was wrong. Oh, wait….. *gurgle*”

    That’s the other key: we can’t say “Wait, Cersei, don’t die just yet, and think about it: if we do a few contortions, add in that your translator was wrong about what Valonqar means AND that Maggie basically was wrong, then it makes total sense!” It has to make sense to Cersei and it has to make immediate sense to her. Preferably, it not only will make sense, but there will be an appreciation by Cersei that because she attributed it to the wrong brother, she actually created the circumstances that led to the other one killing her. (I do like my prophecies MacBethian!) Given the Faulknerian theory of writing to which Martin subscribes, that would be the most appropriate outcome.

  126. Wimsey,

    Right, but that has nothing to do with the words for “brother” or “sister.” Extending the notion that one gender neutral word that is engendered in other languages means that a language has no engendered words is a classic logical fallacy: i.e., affirming the antecendent. (“If P, then q; q; therefore P!”) Moreover, this premise is easily falsified when applied to real languages: because Latin has “princeps,” either the words “frater” + “soror,” or “puer” + “puella” cannot both exist: there will be just one word for “sibling” or “offspring.” Either my Latin teacher lied to me, or the premise is false!

    It’s only a speculation in that there has been a mistranslation of ‘valonqar’. There’s also that High Valyrian itself is a fiction language but I don’t know if it’s been as fully realized as other fictional languages have been (could be wrong there though). As a result, there isn’t really set system to rely on, reference, and parallel — High Valyrian isn’t Latin and I don’t know what Martin is basing the language on (unless somebody has information about this?)

    What you say could be true! But I don’t know enough about the language itself to give a strong debate either way.

    So I take it to mean you think valonqar is Jaime since Jaime would fulfill the requirements you are proposing (must make sense to Cersei and that Cersei only has younger brothers, not younger siblings).

  127. I’m not awaiting the next book impatiently anymore. I might wait to see what the critics say before I invest any money in it. Though critics might have a different opinion to me. There’s library loan but it’s not always easy to find the ASOIAF books there – which shows they are popular.

    I read a somewhat abridged version of Robert Jordan’s ‘The Eye of the World’ – first book of ‘The Wheel of Time’ series. I think I might be too old for that series. I didn’t loathe it but it didn’t grab me either. If there are any mega WOT fans I’m really, really not trying to be critical of other folks’ tastes in books (horses for courses and all that).

    Wimsey, English does have its idiosyncrasies indeed. Sometimes ‘they’ which is strictly speaking a third person plural pronoun is used as a singular pronoun in an informal setting where the gender is not known.

  128. Mr Derp: 🙂

    I think seasons 1-4 Tyrion would’ve pimp-slapped the heck out of seasons 5-8 Tyrion. They were like two completely different people.

    Of course, Tyrion killing his father would contribute to a major change in character development, but I didn’t think it would affect his intelligence and judgement as much as it seemed to me.

    Maybe Varys and Illyrio actually killed Tyrion between seasons 4-5 and we were left with an imposter Tyrion afterwards….

    • That’s the way it looked to me too. For whatever reason (maybe the lack of source material?), S1-S4 Tyrion and S5-S8 Tyrion “were like two completely different people. (For the sake of brevity, maybe I should adopt your descriptions and refer to them as Real Tyrion and Imposter Tyrion, respectively. Or Clever Tyrion vs. Faux Tyrion.)

    I’ve suggested in the past that writing witty, intelligent dialogue for a character; crafting jokes with punchlines that land; and constructing intricate plans and schemes for a character; must be among the most difficult and time-consuming challenges for a scriptwriter. GRRM had all the time he wanted to create Real Tyrion. The showrunners did not. Even so, the differences were glaring. It was as if “Varys and Illyrio actually killed” Tyrion, or arranged for a lobotomy.

    • I know some fans felt differently. Speaking only for myself, I almost felt embarrassed for Peter Dinklage, and I almost hurled, when I watched Tyrion drone on and on to Cersei about “Your baby, your baby, your baby.”
    I cringed while listening to that ridiculous “Bran the Broken has the best story” speech. Dinklage tried to make it sound dramatic. He couldn’t.

    I’m sorry. Those speeches were just awful. Real Tyrion would’ve fired crossbow bolts into Faux Tyrion’s bowels to shut him up.

    • Compare Faux Tyrion in those scenes with Real Tyrion in this S2 scene (possibly my all-time favorite Tyrion scene):

    Tyrion & Lancel, S2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HijFieJNH5k

    Real Tyrion transforms pompous Lancel into a quaking lump of pliable jelly over the course of a few minutes, flipping Lancel into a double agent.
    Vintage Tyrion.

    • I remember the truly clever Real Tyrion who came up with the Wildfire Ghost Ship plan.
    As for Faux Tyrion? Two words:

    Wight Hunt.

    JFC. I cannot believe that the Tyrion who recognized that Cersei’s wildfire pot-flinging plan was a disaster waiting to happen, would ever come up with a harebrained scheme to send a dozen or so men on foot against 100,000 killer zombies just to try to bag one for a show and tell presentation that turned out to be a waste of time.

    For that matter, I still don’t understand why the Tyrion who knew full well his sister despised him and was untrustworthy, would decide to trust her – over and over – only to be deceived each time, like Lucy yanking the football away from Charlie Brown. (Even Sansa called him out for being such a twit for believing Cersei would actually send the Lannister army north.) How could he actually think his appeals to her to think about “your baby, your baby” had changed her into a decent, unselfish person?

    • What I really missed were the quips, jokes, sarcasm and snark of the Real Tyrion. After a while, it seemed Imposter Tyrion’s “jokes” consisted of just saying “c*ck,” “c*ckless,” “no c*ck” – as if just saying it would make us laugh. It didn’t. It got tedious. (The same was true for post-S4 Bronn. Top prize goes to his “not without a c*ck” banter with Jaime in the opening scene of S7e7. Truly awful.)

    • Worst of all was the lame recycling of prior “jokes” – especially the punchline-less “jackass and honeycomb” story that Tyrion spouted again for a third time in the final episode – still without a punch line. I didn’t laugh. I grimaced. That was the best they could come up with for Tyrion’s final lines on the show?
    Maybe I don’t have a sense of humor: Was retelling the opening line of the jackass and honeycomb story and then cutting away without a punchline supposed to be funny in and of itself?

    • Come to think of it, I don’t remember any of Imposter Tyrion’s attempted jokes that made me crack a smile. Do you?

    • I suppose it’s possible Tyrion was dumbed-down on purpose so that when his “clever plans” failed and Cersei duped him, it would all compound Dany’s problems, piss her off, and help drive her off the deep end. Although his tenure as Dany’s Hand started off promising enough (aced the job interview in S5e8), after that it went downhill.

    • In all fairness, I should add that Imposter Tyrion did have a few good moments, including:
    – Going through alcohol withdrawal as Ser Jorah’s captive, and sailing with Ser Jorah past Old Valyria (their poetry-recital duet);
    – Initial scenes meeting and conversing with Dany;
    – Talking her out of exterminating the Masters’ armies and destroying their cities, in favor of a more surgical approach (S6e9);
    – Persuading Dany to let Jon mine dragonglass “Give him something by giving him nothing”)
    – Trying, though not succeeding, to talk her out of barbecuing Tarly father and son.
    – Tyrion and Varys reunion scene in Mereen (“if only….”)

    I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head.

  129. Wimsey,

    I found this Wikipedia article on High Valyrian and it looks like much of the system was created for the TV show by David Peterson because GRRM wasn’t much interested in the language creation:

    The producers gave Peterson a largely free hand in developing the languages, as, according to Peterson, George R. R. Martin himself was not very interested in the linguistic aspect of his works.[4]

    So I don’t know how much of the development Peterson did for High Valyrian applies to the books.

    But if it does and if GRRM himself adopts it, there’s this:

    There are four grammatical numbers in High Valyrian—singular, plural, paucal and collective. For example, vala “man” (nom. sing.); vali “men” (nom. pl.); valun “some men” (nom. pau.); valar “all men” (nom. coll.).[13][14] The collective can itself be modified by number as a new noun declension, for example azantys “knight, soldier” (nom. sing.) → azantyr “army” (nom. coll.); azantyr “army” (nom. sing.) → azantyri “armies” (nom. pl.).[15]

    I think this would indicate ‘valonqar’ is male due to ‘valo’.

    ‘Valar morghulis’ exists in the books and it appears to mean ‘all men must die’ in the books as well. The phrase ‘all men must die’ is spoken in Daenerys’s, Jon’s, Arya’s, Tyrion’s, and Jon Con’s chapters with Daenerys’s, Tyrion’s, and Arya’s chapters saying ‘valar morghulis’ means ‘all men must die’:

    ASOS, Daenerys III:

    “Valar morghulis,” said Missandei, in High Valyrian.

    “All men must die,” Dany agreed, “but not for a long while, we may pray.”

    ASOS, Tyrion IX:

    “Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true.” The Dornishman went to the window to gaze out into the night. “It is being said that you have no witnesses for us.”

    AFFC, Arya I:

    All men must die. That was what the words meant, the words that Jaqen H’ghar had taught her when he gave her the worn iron coin. She had learned more Braavosi words since they left Saltpans, the words for please and thank you and sea and star and fire wine, but she came to them knowing that all men must die.

    However, ‘all men must die’ may not be intended to specify all males must die (since females are mortal too) and can be meant as a term for ‘human’.

    But I don’t know enough about High Valyrian itself to make any certain statements :/

  130. Wimsey,

    ”Extending the notion that one gender neutral word that is engendered in other languages means that a language has no engendered words is a classic logical fallacy: i.e., affirming the antecendent. (“If P, then q; q; therefore P!”)”

    • If I’m not mistaken, Hot Pie provided an example of a “classical logical fallacy” when he was talking about “knights” and “battles” in early S2. I suppose his false logic went something like this [paraphrasing]:

    All knights wear armor. Anyone wearing armor must therefore be a knight.

    (Even after Gendry explained to him that “any idiot can buy armor,” Hot Pie still resisted abandoning his false assumption – which provided moments of levity in later seasons, e.g., assuming that Brienne was a knight because she had armor on.)

    • And yes, about gendered vs. gender-neutral words, in my previous comments I too have been exasperated that theories about a female Valonqar seem to be predicated on the assumption that because a different Valyrian word (for “prince”) is genderless, therefore all Valyrian words can refer to either gender.

    I shouldn’t repeat myself ….

  131. Adrianacandle: So I take it to mean you think valonqar is Jaime since Jaime would fulfill the requirements you are proposing (must make sense to Cersei and that Cersei only has younger brothers, not younger siblings).

    From the perspective of literary theory alone (both general and the one to which Martin subscribes), that would make the most sense. At the very least, it is classic irony: it meant what it said, not what it implied. It also could be very MacBethian if Jaime kills her in part because of things she has done to stop Tyrion from doing so.

    The usual argument against this is sort of reasoning is “But it’s too obvious!” That’s why Jon couldn’t be Lyanna’s son, Melisandre couldn’t be the one to revive Jon, the Pink Letter couldn’t actually be from Ramsay, etc. So, the “it cannot be obvious” idea has an excellent track record!

    (The big problem with that premise is that it assumes that authors set these things up thinking that their works will be group-analyzed for extended periods of time, or that authors even know of a way to write multistory plotlines that do not basically assume that the audience is not reading/watching the whole thing in one sitting!)

    That said, it could turn out to be Tyrion: but that would work only if goes the MacBeth route of the act coming solely from Cersei trying to avoid that fate. It seems that the plot has gone in a different direction from that, however.

    Ten Bears: I shouldn’t repeat myself ….

    I wouldn’t worry until you get to 300 pages of:
    “One gender neutral word does not mean all words are gender neutral.”
    “One gender neutral word does not mean all words are gender neutral.”
    “One gender neutral word does not mean all words are gender neutral.”
    ……

    If you do get there, then stay away from axes and snowbanks. Oh, and wave to any black swans that fly by! 😀

  132. Wimsey,

    From the perspective of literary theory alone (both general and the one to which Martin subscribes), that would make the most sense. At the very least, it is classic irony: it meant what it said, not what it implied. It also could be very MacBethian if Jaime kills her in part because of things she has done to stop Tyrion from doing so.

    The usual argument against this is sort of reasoning is “But it’s too obvious!” That’s why Jon couldn’t be Lyanna’s son, Melisandre couldn’t be the one to revive Jon, the Pink Letter couldn’t actually be from Ramsay, etc. So, the “it cannot be obvious” idea has an excellent track record!

    (The big problem with that premise is that it assumes that authors set these things up thinking that their works will be group-analyzed for extended periods of time, or that authors even know of a way to write multistory plotlines that do not basically assume that the audience is not reading/watching the whole thing in one sitting!)

    I think these are all good points and I agree 🙂 No argument here!

  133. Ten Bears: • That’s the way it looked to me too. For whatever reason (maybe the lack of source material?), S1-S4 Tyrion and S5-S8 Tyrion “were like two completely different people. (For the sake of brevity, maybe I should adopt your descriptions and refer to them as Real Tyrion and Imposter Tyrion, respectively. Or Clever Tyrion vs. Faux Tyrion.)

    I’ve suggested in the past that writing witty, intelligent dialogue for a character; crafting jokes with punchlines that land; and constructing intricate plans and schemes for a character; must be among the most difficult and time-consuming challenges for a scriptwriter. GRRM had all the time he wanted to create Real Tyrion.The showrunners did not. Even so, the differences were glaring. It was as if “Varys and Illyrio actually killed” Tyrion, or arranged for a lobotomy.

    • I know some fans felt differently. Speaking only for myself, I almost felt embarrassed for Peter Dinklage, and I almost hurled, when I watched Tyrion drone on and on to Cersei about “Your baby, your baby, your baby.”
    I cringed while listening to that ridiculous “Bran the Broken has the best story” speech. Dinklage tried to make it sound dramatic. He couldn’t.

    I’m sorry. Those speeches were just awful. Real Tyrion would’ve fired crossbow bolts into Faux Tyrion’s bowels to shut him up.

    • Compare Faux Tyrion in those scenes with Real Tyrion in this S2 scene (possibly my all-time favorite Tyrion scene):

    Tyrion & Lancel, S2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HijFieJNH5k

    Real Tyrion transforms pompous Lancel into a quaking lump of pliable jelly over the course of a few minutes, flipping Lancel into a double agent.
    Vintage Tyrion.

    • I remember the truly clever Real Tyrion who came up with the Wildfire Ghost Ship plan. As for Faux Tyrion? Two words:

    Wight Hunt.

    JFC. I cannot believe that the Tyrion who recognized that Cersei’s wildfire pot-flinging plan was a disaster waiting to happen, would ever come up with a harebrained scheme to send a dozen or so men on foot against 100,000 killer zombies just to try to bag one for a show and tell presentation that turned out to be a waste of time.

    For that matter, I still don’t understand why the Tyrion who knew full well his sister despised him and was untrustworthy, would decide to trust her – over and over – only to be deceived each time, like Lucy yanking the football away from Charlie Brown. (Even Sansa called him out for being such a twit for believing Cersei would actually send the Lannister army north.) How could he actually think his appeals to her to think about “your baby, your baby” had changed her into a decent, unselfish person?

    • What I really missed were the quips, jokes, sarcasm and snark of the Real Tyrion. After a while, it seemed Imposter Tyrion’s “jokes” consisted of just saying “c*ck,” “c*ckless,” “no c*ck” – as if just saying it would make us laugh. It didn’t. It got tedious. (The same was true for post-S4 Bronn. Top prize goes to his “not without a c*ck” banter with Jaime in the opening scene of S7e7. Truly awful.)

    • Worst of all was the lame recycling of prior “jokes” – especially the punchline-less “jackass and honeycomb” story that Tyrion spouted again for a third time in the final episode – still without a punch line. I didn’t laugh. I grimaced. That was the best they could come up with for Tyrion’s final lines on the show?Maybe I don’t have a sense of humor: Was retelling the opening line of the jackass and honeycomb story and then cutting away without a punchline supposed to be funny in and of itself?

    • Come to think of it, I don’t remember any of Imposter Tyrion’s attempted jokes that made me crack a smile. Do you?

    • I suppose it’s possible Tyrion was dumbed-down on purpose so that when his “clever plans” failed and Cersei duped him, it would all compound Dany’s problems, piss her off, and help drive her off the deep end. Although his tenure as Dany’s Hand started off promising enough (aced the job interview in S5e8), after that it went downhill.

    • In all fairness, I should add that Imposter Tyrion did have a few good moments, including:– Going through alcohol withdrawal as Ser Jorah’s captive, and sailing with Ser Jorah past Old Valyria (their poetry-recital duet); – Initial scenes meeting and conversing with Dany;– Talking her out of exterminating the Masters’ armies and destroying their cities, in favor of a more surgical approach (S6e9);– Persuading Dany to let Jon mine dragonglass “Give him something by giving him nothing”) – Trying, though not succeeding, to talk her out of barbecuing Tarly father and son. – Tyrion and Varys reunion scene in Mereen (“if only….”)

    I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head.

    I can immediately remember two Tyrion scenes I really liked in seasons 5 and 6. One was in 5×03, when he goes to the brothel, just before being captured by Jorah. I liked the conversation he had with that girl, assuming he couldn’t have sex with her. It was a rare moment of genuine honesty in a TV show where characters spend much of their time trying to outplay each other or being careful about what they say in order to survive. I think his behaviour was believable, since he was clearly troubled at that time.

    The other one was the deal with the slavers in 6×04. The scene was played in line with Tyrion’s views on politics and diplomacy. It would be a fine idea to deal with some Westerosi nobles. The deal didn’t work because he had never lived in Slaver’s Bay. He didn’t really know how things were in that corner of the world. Missandei and Grey Worm were concerned because they knew better. The cultural differences among the characters were well exposed.

    I wouldn’t differentiate Tyrion in two different characters. I would differentiate him in three, according to the acts of this story: there’s one Tyrion in seasons 1-4 (the first act), a different Tyrion in the second act (seasons 5-6) and the final version of him (seasons 7-8).

    Almost everyone enjoys Tyrion in the first four seasons. At the end of season 4, he kills his father and the woman he loved. He’s understandably shaken by those events. His arc in season 5 is about finding Daenerys. He isn’t in a context where he needs to be constantly witty to solve problems. In season 6, he returns to a place of ruling a city. I think he does rather well. But not so well as in King’s Landing, because he lacks knowledge about the society he’s in. There’s one or two boring scenes of him in that season, but I think he’s still the Tyrion we know.

    My main gripes with the character reside in seasons 7 and 8. His worst decision happens when Daenerys wants to go after Euron ships to burn them in season 7×03. Tyrion and Varys look at her like “you’re crazy”. Tyrion says the attack is too risky, which is not. She would burn the Iron Fleet like a hot knife through butter and gain completely control of the seas. That decision made no sense strategically. It made sense thematically maybe, based on the ending we’ve had.

  134. As for TWOW, I think we still have to wait some time before it comes to life. The book requires careful work in putting the characters ready to the endgame, sychronizing all the plot points and presenting a good narrative to the reader. And there’s the rewriting. He has characters and material to write more than 1.500 pages. I believe he’ll have to trim that to satisfy the publishers’ needs.

  135. Ten Bears: • That’s the way it looked to me too. For whatever reason (maybe the lack of source material?), S1-S4 Tyrion and S5-S8 Tyrion “were like two completely different people. (For the sake of brevity, maybe I should adopt your descriptions and refer to them as Real Tyrion and Imposter Tyrion, respectively. Or Clever Tyrion vs. Faux Tyrion.)

    I’ve suggested in the past that writing witty, intelligent dialogue for a character; crafting jokes with punchlines that land; and constructing intricate plans and schemes for a character; must be among the most difficult and time-consuming challenges for a scriptwriter. GRRM had all the time he wanted to create Real Tyrion.The showrunners did not. Even so, the differences were glaring. It was as if “Varys and Illyrio actually killed” Tyrion, or arranged for a lobotomy.

    • I know some fans felt differently. Speaking only for myself, I almost felt embarrassed for Peter Dinklage, and I almost hurled, when I watched Tyrion drone on and on to Cersei about “Your baby, your baby, your baby.”
    I cringed while listening to that ridiculous “Bran the Broken has the best story” speech. Dinklage tried to make it sound dramatic. He couldn’t.

    I’m sorry. Those speeches were just awful. Real Tyrion would’ve fired crossbow bolts into Faux Tyrion’s bowels to shut him up.

    • Compare Faux Tyrion in those scenes with Real Tyrion in this S2 scene (possibly my all-time favorite Tyrion scene):

    Tyrion & Lancel, S2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HijFieJNH5k

    Real Tyrion transforms pompous Lancel into a quaking lump of pliable jelly over the course of a few minutes, flipping Lancel into a double agent.
    Vintage Tyrion.

    • I remember the truly clever Real Tyrion who came up with the Wildfire Ghost Ship plan. As for Faux Tyrion? Two words:

    Wight Hunt.

    JFC. I cannot believe that the Tyrion who recognized that Cersei’s wildfire pot-flinging plan was a disaster waiting to happen, would ever come up with a harebrained scheme to send a dozen or so men on foot against 100,000 killer zombies just to try to bag one for a show and tell presentation that turned out to be a waste of time.

    For that matter, I still don’t understand why the Tyrion who knew full well his sister despised him and was untrustworthy, would decide to trust her – over and over – only to be deceived each time, like Lucy yanking the football away from Charlie Brown. (Even Sansa called him out for being such a twit for believing Cersei would actually send the Lannister army north.) How could he actually think his appeals to her to think about “your baby, your baby” had changed her into a decent, unselfish person?

    • What I really missed were the quips, jokes, sarcasm and snark of the Real Tyrion. After a while, it seemed Imposter Tyrion’s “jokes” consisted of just saying “c*ck,” “c*ckless,” “no c*ck” – as if just saying it would make us laugh. It didn’t. It got tedious. (The same was true for post-S4 Bronn. Top prize goes to his “not without a c*ck” banter with Jaime in the opening scene of S7e7. Truly awful.)

    • Worst of all was the lame recycling of prior “jokes” – especially the punchline-less “jackass and honeycomb” story that Tyrion spouted again for a third time in the final episode – still without a punch line. I didn’t laugh. I grimaced. That was the best they could come up with for Tyrion’s final lines on the show?Maybe I don’t have a sense of humor: Was retelling the opening line of the jackass and honeycomb story and then cutting away without a punchline supposed to be funny in and of itself?

    • Come to think of it, I don’t remember any of Imposter Tyrion’s attempted jokes that made me crack a smile. Do you?

    • I suppose it’s possible Tyrion was dumbed-down on purpose so that when his “clever plans” failed and Cersei duped him, it would all compound Dany’s problems, piss her off, and help drive her off the deep end. Although his tenure as Dany’s Hand started off promising enough (aced the job interview in S5e8), after that it went downhill.

    • In all fairness, I should add that Imposter Tyrion did have a few good moments, including:– Going through alcohol withdrawal as Ser Jorah’s captive, and sailing with Ser Jorah past Old Valyria (their poetry-recital duet); – Initial scenes meeting and conversing with Dany;– Talking her out of exterminating the Masters’ armies and destroying their cities, in favor of a more surgical approach (S6e9);– Persuading Dany to let Jon mine dragonglass “Give him something by giving him nothing”) – Trying, though not succeeding, to talk her out of barbecuing Tarly father and son. – Tyrion and Varys reunion scene in Mereen (“if only….”)

    I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head.

    You know, when I told my girlfriend (who is watching GoT for first time and is currently 6 seasons in) that people started disliking Tyrion after S4 and labeling him as “stupid”, she was actually very surprised to hear that and honestly even “pissed off” in some way as she loves Tyrion in these seasons (and I very much like him myself too). After our discussion, it turned out her interpretation of his character in these seasons is almost identical to mine… that after killing Tywin and Shae and especially after meeting Dany, Tyrion wanted to be a better person… he didn’t want to be the scheming cunning person he was before because meeting Dany (and eventually developing feelings for her as revealed in S8 finale) gave him new hope. She represented him something that he probably didn’t believe could exist in such world. But with his new perspective on everything, with his new pacifist attitude, he pretty much became “too good for this world”, resulting in his emotions starting to cloud his mind and thus in his plans not succeeding. I personally really don’t see him as dumbed down, I see him as someone who didn’t want to be who he was before… someone who really wanted to be good. At the end of the story, I feel he’s one of the most “good” people, along with Jon… the least corrupted in terms of politics and such. Yes, he may have not been the cunning witty person we knew from S1-S4 anymore, but I personally saw his attitude change as inner growth – finding belief in goodness in such corrupt world as GoT-universe is which is rare in my eyes, especially considering how deconstructed almost all protagonists were in final stages of the story. At least that’s how I interpreted it and my girlfriend seems on very much same route. I still live remember I had tears in my eyes during Tyrion’s conversation with Jon before Dany got killed… because I could feel his pain in that moment, I could feel how his belief in this “goodness” was shattered inside him during that moment and knowing my girlfriend and the way she gets emotionally affected during scenes (she said she cried during Dany/Tyrion scene when he gets appointed as hand), I feel she’ll feel similar.

    Also on side note, my girlfriend said she laughed so hard during the “telling the joke” scene in 6×8 and I laugh every time myself too when rewatching.

  136. Tiago: I can immediately remember two Tyrion scenes I really liked in seasons 5 and 6. One was in 5×03, when he goes to the brothel, just before being captured by Jorah. I liked the conversation he had with that girl, assuming he couldn’t have sex with her. It was a rare moment of genuine honesty in a TV show where characters spend much of their time trying to outplay each other or being careful about what they say in order to survive. I think his behaviour was believable, since he was clearly troubled at that time.

    The other one was the deal with the slavers in 6×04. The scene was played in line with Tyrion’s views on politics and diplomacy. It would be a fine idea to deal with some Westerosi nobles. The deal didn’t work because he had never lived in Slaver’s Bay. He didn’t really know how things were in that corner of the world. Missandei and Grey Worm were concerned because they knew better. The cultural differences among the characters were well exposed.

    I wouldn’t differentiate Tyrion in two different characters. I would differentiate him in three, according to the acts of this story: there’s one Tyrion in seasons 1-4 (the first act), a different Tyrion in the second act (seasons 5-6) and the final version of him (seasons 7-8).

    Almost everyone enjoys Tyrion in the first four seasons. At the end of season 4, he kills his father and the woman he loved. He’s understandably shaken by those events. His arc in season 5 is about finding Daenerys. He isn’t in a context where he needs to be constantly witty to solve problems. In season 6, he returns to a place of ruling a city. I think he does rather well. But not so well as in King’s Landing, because he lacks knowledge about the society he’s in. There’s one or two boring scenes of him in that season, but I think he’s still the Tyrion we know.

    My main gripes with the character reside in seasons 7 and 8. His worst decision happens when Daenerys wants to go after Euron ships to burn them in season 7×03. Tyrion and Varys look at her like “you’re crazy”. Tyrion says the attack is too risky, which is not. She would burn the Iron Fleet like a hot knife through butter and gain completely control of the seas. That decision made no sense strategically. It made sense thematically maybe, based on the ending we’ve had.

    I’m jumping into the discussion here. Since the article talks about GRRM’s books, I have to compare book Tyrion. I think there was plenty of source material for D&D, but they decided not to use it. They went their own route in Meereen. I’m not totally unsympathetic to D&D, because GRRM did seem to get bogged down in Meereen. D&D didn’t want to take the same path. (However after reading the Feldman essays recommended by Adrianacandle, I have changed my opinion about GRRM really being bogged down. ) Verging from book Tyrion starting in Meereen is where I see D&D took a wrong turn with Tyrion’s character. Yes, the show goes further than the books with Tyrion, but the shift in Tyrion’s cleverness shifts when D&D veer from book Tyrion.

    Tyrion hasn’t really met Daenerys yet in the books. His journey in Meereen is quite different. He doesn’t get kidnapped by Jorah and he ends up with a totally different cast of characters in Meereen, including Penny and others. He has yet to really meet Daenerys other than seeing her while performing in the pits with Penny. Dany gets very upset that they want to let loose the lions to eat the unsuspecting dwarfs. Luckily Tyrion and Penny live to talk about it. I find Tyrion still very clever in the books and I enjoyed where Tyrion was headed as the battle of Meereen was going into full force at the end of the books.

    You often hear about actors in daily soap operas here in the USA who get upset if the writers write lines that are “out of character”. I have heard actors rebelling with their writers and refusing to say lines that would destroy their character. I wouldn’t be surprised if Peter Dinklage was upset with D&D’s writing of Tyrion when D&D decided to make him “dumb and dumber”. D&D took Tyrion down an unfortunate path of being a horrible advisor. I really don’t see this happening in the books.

  137. Adrianacandle,

    – I don’t go to that site because it requires “cookies” and who knows what else you’re agreeing to when you click “Accept.”

    – I don’t think I’d want to see a fan page explaining the female Valonqar theory, but thank you for offering to screenshot it.

    As you probably know, if there were some basis for this theory I’d be fully on board with it.*

    From what I gather there is no textual evidence that “little brother” in Valyrian can mean “little sister” too. I’m guessing that the fansite theorists made the assumption that since the Valyrian word for “prince” is genderless and can also mean “princess,” the same should apply to the Valyrian word for “little brother.” (As Wimsey described it, that assumption is a logical fallacy.)

    * Aren’t there a whole bunch of books’ passages in which Jon reminisces about mussing Arya’s hair and calling her “little sister”?

    The handful of books’ passages I’m familiar with include Arya’s internal monologue on the Braavos dock (aka “Needle was Jon Snow’s Smile”).
    As I recall, in that internal monologue, Arya herself reminisces about the same thing: Jon mussing her hair and calling her “little sister,” and that’s when her eyes start tearing up.

    So, if there were even the flimsiest basis for it, I’d be the first to make the semantic leap and argue that Valonqar could mean “little sister,” and figure out some way to explain away the use of the masculine pronoun in “his hands.”

    I would gladly elevate Arya to the top of the field as my odds-on favorite to win the Valonqar Sweepstakes.

    Wishful thinking aside, I just don’t see this as a possibility.

    – The overall problem? Too many years (9+ and counting) + too many millions of fans = too much time for too many people to come up with every imaginable tinfoil theory.
    I suspect every possible future storyline and scenario has been extrapolated in one form or another. (Speaking of covering all conceivable permutations and combinations, where’s Kevin1989 been?)

    – Excuse the sarcasm: With all the theories out there about female Valonqars, four-legged Valonqars, one-handed Valonqars, someone’s “sibling” Valonqars, dead Valonqars, reanimated Valonqars, undead Valonqars, fValonqars, avian Valonqars, direwolf Valonqars, Craster Valonqars, half-dead Benjen Valonqars, White Walker Valonqars, headless Valonqars, paraplegic Valonqars, catatonic Valonqars, equine Valonqars, Unsullied Valonqars, shadow baby Valonqars, HotK chain-wearing Valonqars, prosthetic-handed Valonqars, hallucinated Valonqars, Lannister Valonqars, Greyjoy Valonqars, and faceless, face-masked, face-peeling, and face-changing Valonqars…

    …. We’d be better off speculating who cannot be the Valonqar. 🤯

  138. Adrianacandle:
    Wimsey,

    I think these are all good points and I agree 🙂 No argument here!

    Me too.

    What GRRM may have embedded* in thousands of pages of text as subtle clues and fragmentary factoids, have now been picked over and picked apart by so many book readers (and show fans) throughout the years that the obscure has become the obvious. Like Wimsey said, when GRRM wrote the books with clues that Lyanna Stark was Jon’s mom, he didn’t anticipate that millions of fans over so many years would parse every word. Though GRRM may have intended Jon’s parentage to be a surprise reveal, it became canon even before the show confirmed it in S6.

    * I read a GRRM interview a while back. He described how he deliberately “hid” important clues as mundane details within otherwise exciting passages. Or something like that. (I may still have that interview somewhere. I can look.)

    By now, I’m sure every one of those buried clues have been unearthed. In this regard, he’s the victim of his own success.

  139. Adrianacandle,

    ”However, ‘all men must die’ may not be intended to specify all males must die (since females are mortal too) and can be meant as a term for ‘human’.”

    • Interesting excerpt about the creator of the Valyrian language, and your analysis that the root “val-“ is used for masculine words, like Valor Morghulis (sp?) = All men must die.

    • However – and here’s where I may get in trouble conflating show dialogue with stiff from the books….

    On the show, Dany and Missandei had an exchange that went something like this:

    Missandei: “All men must die.”
    Dany: “But we are not men.”

    Was this a throwaway line? Am I making something out of nothing? Could be. 🤫

  140. Ten Bears,

    – I don’t go to that site because it requires “cookies” and who knows what else you’re agreeing to when you click “Accept.”
    – I don’t think I’d want to see a fan page explaining the female Valonqar theory, but thank you for offering to screenshot it.

    No problem 🙂

    This page from the ASOIAF wiki is not arguing for or against any particular theory, pushing the idea of a female valonqar, making assumptions to that end. Rather, it’s more a neutral documentation of the main (fan) theories for valonqar and listing the arguments fans use for and against each theory and referencing its sources. However, the wiki itself isn’t agreeing or disagreeing with any theory

    I find it a good resource for quick summaries of well-known theories because it provides links to sources I can cross-reference.

    – The overall problem? Too many years (9+ and counting) + too many millions of fans = too much time for too many people to come up with every imaginable tinfoil theory.

    Yep, I agree.

    I suspect every possible future storyline and scenario has been extrapolated in one form or another. (Speaking of covering all conceivable permutations and combinations, where’s Kevin1989 been?)

    I did connect with Kevin on Steam but real life has been pretty hectic. However, he has plans to come back when things settle down! I know he has ideas about valonqar 🙂

    What GRRM may have embedded* in thousands of pages of text as subtle clues and fragmentary factoids, have now been picked over and picked apart by so many book readers (and show fans) throughout the years that the obscure has become the obvious. Like Wimsey said, when GRRM wrote the books with clues that Lyanna Stark was Jon’s mom, he didn’t anticipate that millions of fans over so many years would parse every word. Though GRRM may have intended Jon’s parentage to be a surprise reveal, it became canon even before the show confirmed it in S6.

    Yes. And what seems obvious now didn’t seem obvious back then when fans were first receiving these books. But with the popularization of the internet and it becoming mainstream (starting around the mid-late 90s when the first books were being published), the growing numbers of fans connecting and sharing theories in shared virtual spaces, and the explosion of the show bringing more fans in yet, R+L=J had been figured out before it became show canon.

    I remember reading the books for the first time and it certainly didn’t occur to me. It wasn’t until a couple years later when another friend I had recommended the series to asked me, “Hey, have you heard this theory?” that I only became aware of it and thought it was really cool. But it certainly didn’t jump out to me as obvious then — it was only when I connected with other fans and really considered it that I did see stuff lining up for it.

    I think we’ve hit a point in the fandom where some theories themselves are even relying on other theories becoming canon (and treating them as canon) rather than sourcing from the books themselves. I think of those theories as sort of second-level theories in that their basis might be even shakier because they have that much more divide between its speculation and the source material.

    But no, I don’t think GRRM anticipated that every syllable of his text would be parsed over to this degree. Jaime as valonqar might seem obvious to a fandom that has spent 20 years going over every single possible outcome since AFFC (and I think it does make the most sense) — but perhaps not to a fandom which has only lived with the books for a few years and isn’t obsessively combing over every detail.

    It reminds me of GRRM’s response to a question about the outline’s Jon and Arya and how it relates to the published books:

    [question about Jon/Arya]

    GRRM: “Alright, you’ve thought about this more than I have. I mean it’s simple, Jon is very fond of Arya. They were the two odd birds in the Stark family nest, here. They didn’t quite fit in with the others, they look like each other, they both had the brown hair, you know, as opposed to the auburn hair of Sansa and Bran and Rickon and Robb. So there was always that closeness between them. And, you know, Arya didn’t mind that Jon was a bastard, and Jon didn’t mind that Arya was a tomboy, so there is that closeness there.”

    And I think some (myself included) might be overthinking some stuff.

  141. Ten Bears: However – and here’s where I may get in trouble conflating show dialogue with stiff from the books….

    On the show, Dany and Missandei had an exchange that went something like this:

    Missandei: “All men must die.”
    Dany: “But we are not men.”

    Was this a throwaway line? Am I making something out of nothing? Could be. 🤫

    I did search for that line (“But we are not men”) but couldn’t find it in the books. I think this is a show-only line.

    I believe that scene was sourcing the following from the books which happens (as in the show) when Dany frees Missandei:

    “Do you have a name, or must you draw a new one every day from some barrel?”

    “That is only for Unsullied,” the girl said. Then she realized the question had been asked in High Valyrian. Her eyes went wide. “Oh.”

    “Your name is Oh?”  

    “No. Your Grace, forgive this one her outburst. Your slave’s name is Missandei, but…”

    “Missandei is no longer a slave. I free you, from this instant. Come ride with me in the litter, I wish to talk.” Rakharo helped them in, and Dany drew the curtains shut against the dust and heat. “If you stay with me you will serve as one of my handmaids,” she said as they set off. “I shall keep you by my side to speak for me as you spoke for Kraznys. But you may leave my service whenever you choose, if you have father or mother you would sooner return to.”

    “This one will stay,” the girl said. “This one… I… there is no place for me to go. This… I will serve you, gladly.”

    “I can give you freedom, but not safety,” Dany warned. “I have a world to cross and wars to fight. You may go hungry. You may grow sick. You may be killed.”

    “Valar morghuhs,” said Missandei, in High Valyrian.

    “All men must die,” Dany agreed, “but not for a long while, we may pray.” She leaned back on the pillows and took the girl’s hand. “Are these Unsullied truly fearless?”

    Unrelated but Ygritte says ‘all men must die’ to Jon too 🙂

    Wildlings fought like heroes or demons, depending on who you talked to, but it came down to the same thing in the end. They fight with reckless courage, every man out for glory. “I don’t doubt that you’re all very brave, but when it comes to battle, discipline beats valor every time. In the end Mance will fail as all the Kings-beyond-the-Wall have failed before him. And when he does, you’ll die. All of you.”

    Ygritte had looked so angry he thought she was about to strike him. “All of us,” she said. “You too. You’re no crow now, Jon Snow. I swore you weren’t, so you better not be.” She pushed him back against the trunk of a tree and kissed him, full on the lips right there in the midst of the ragged column. Jon heard Grigg the Goat urging her on. Someone else laughed. He kissed her back despite all that. When they finally broke apart, Ygritte was flushed. “You’re mine,” she whispered. “Mine, as I’m yours. And if we die, we die. All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we’ll live.”

    (And so does Mance, who says it twice in ASOS — one time in a song, “The Dornishman’s Wife” but in these contexts, ‘valar morghulis’ is not mentioned.)

  142. Adrianacandle: but perhaps not to a fandom which has only lived with the books for a few years and isn’t obsessively combing over every detail.

    I should change this phrasing to, “but perhaps not to a fandom which has only lived with the books for a few years and *hasn’t had time to obsessively comb over every detail to the degree this one has.”

    (Other fandoms do this as well, and I’ve done it quite a bit too, but I think the waiting time in the ASOIAF fandom has kind of pushed it to the nth degree, resulting in some overthinking and some pretty convoluted theories. But even some of those, I think can be really interesting and cool! And would make great stories in and of themselves.)

  143. Adrianacandle:

    … (Probably in the same way that I enjoy the idea of Brienne being the more beautiful “another” referring to inner beauty rather than physical beauty, as lame as that sounds, because it also uses Cersei’s own vanity against her).

    Since we’ve drilled down pretty thoroughly into the Valonqar prophecy, maybe we ought to go off on a YMBQ tangent?
    Or is it well-settled among book readers that Dany is the one who’ll cast down Cersei and take all she holds dear*?

    * I’ve always wondered if Magy was referring to what Young Cersei held dear at the time, or what Future Cersei would hold dear at the time YMBQ casts her down. I assumed it was the latter…

  144. Ten Bears,

    Edit/addendum to above:

    … Just like I wondered if the “little brother” referred to someone Young Cersei already knew (which narrows the field to Jaime, Tyrion and Sandor), or someone Future Cersei would know (which expands the pool of candidates to include Jon aka Aegon 2.0 and others).

  145. Ten Bears,

    Since we’ve drilled down pretty thoroughly into the Valonqar prophecy, maybe we ought to go off on a YMBQ tangent?
    Or is it well-settled among book readers that Dany is the one who’ll cast down Cersei and take all she holds dear*?

    I think book-readers have many an idea and speculation on who the younger, more beautiful another can be! 🙂 Dany is certainly a popular candidate but there are others!

    For instance, I like the idea of Brienne being this person but that’s just me 🙂 I also think this theory comes with some interesting possibilities!

    * I’ve always wondered if Magy was referring to what Young Cersei held dear at the time, or what Future Cersei would hold dear at the time YMBQ casts her down. I assumed it was the latter…

    Would Jaime count for both Young Cersei and Future Cersei?

    (Yes, I’ve always interpreted this as meaning what Future Cersei would hold dear too as it’s a prophecy of things to come and the younger, more beautiful another would make taking those things from Future Cersei)

  146. Adrianacandle,

    Re: GRRM comments about Jon & Arya –

    • My speculation: The showrunners’ decision to expand Sansa’s role from second tier to first tier, and the significant changes to her storyline and chronology (e.g., “prematurely” heading north instead of hanging out at the Vale + merging Sansa into Jeyne Poole at WF + reuniting with Jon at CB and recruiting an army to retake WF) caused a significant “butterfly effect” or “avalanche” that, among other things, suppressed or cut into Arya’s show! storyline.

    • Just curious: Many book readers now say they visualize Maisie Williams when they read about Arya. Do you think GRRM can’t help but envision “his” Arya the same way?
    I know he was super excited – and relieved – when they found “our Arya” when casting Maisie Williams; and he was gushing over her performance in the S1 Episode Commentary he narrated. (There was at least one Commentary he narrated – with one of Arya & Syrio’s water dance lessons. I’m not sure if there were others.)

    It might be interesting to know if his conceptions and portrayals of his characters are influenced by the performances of the actresses and actors who play them.

  147. Wimsey,

    ”…At any rate, Cersei has no younger siblings. There is no class of people that she calls “brother.” Assuming that it’s not truly awful writing by Martin, then the statement has to apply to someone that Cersei will think of as “little brother” at the climax: her final thoughts shouldn’t be “I knew Tyrion would kill me!” or “That ‘Little’ brother??”, and not “Woo hoo! The prophecy was wrong. Oh, wait….. *gurgle*”

    That’s the other key: we can’t say “Wait, Cersei, don’t die just yet, and think about it: if we do a few contortions, add in that your translator was wrong about what Valonqar means AND that Maggie basically was wrong, then it makes total sense!” It has to make sense to Cersei and it has to make immediate sense to her. Preferably, it not only will make sense, but there will be an appreciation by Cersei that because she attributed it to the wrong brother, she actually created the circumstances that led to the other one killing her. (I do like my prophecies MacBethian!) Given the Faulknerian theory of writing to which Martin subscribes, that would be the most appropriate outcome.”

    • I’m confused. What did you mean that “Cersei has no younger siblings. There is no class of people that she calls “brother.””

    Aren’t Tyrion and Jaime her younger siblings? Doesn’t she call Jaime (proudly) and Tyrion (begrudgingly) her brothers?

    • Yeah, fan theories predicated on contortions that the translator was wrong AND that Magy was wrong, seem way too far-fetched. Cersei wouldn’t be able to go through those mental gymnastics, and besides, I figure that GRRM established that Magy’s got a perfect track record. She won’t be “wrong.” Whether Cersei will pull a MacBeth and misinterpret Magy’s predictions, or unwittingly make them come true by trying to thwart them, is another story.
    (Also, though I’m not a book reader, wouldn’t it be kind of late in the game to introduce the possibility that the translator f*cked up?)

  148. Ten Bears,

    Arya stabbed Meryn Trant half a dozen times, gouged out his eyes, and continued to stab him after he’d been neutralized, before cutting his throat. She certainly made her justice, but she took it to far.

    It was a story, not a rule that those who break Guest Rights must eat their children. Again, Walder Frey deserved to die, but typically heroes in stories don’t stoop to the villains’ level. They deliver justice the right way. A quick knife to the heart as payment would have gotten the same result. The look of pleasure on Arya’s face after slitting Walker’s throat was terrifying. She certainly was going down a dark path. Luckily, the Hound was able to steer her from it.

    Unfortunately, that was Arya. That was how Arya always talked to her enemies, who she believed Sansa had become.

    It was Stannis who said it, actually, and I agree. Good deeds don’t balance out the bad and make them magically disappear.

    Arya is my favorite character as well, and it’s understandable that you want to defend her, but you can’t deny she enjoyed mercilessly killing her enemies. That’s not a good sign, and her story could very well have played out much differently. Danerys fans also ignored the dark aspects of their favorite character, and look how that turned out.

  149. Ten Bears,

    My speculation: The showrunners’ decision to expand Sansa’s role from second tier to first tier, and the significant changes to her storyline and chronology (e.g., “prematurely” heading north instead of hanging out at the Vale + merging Sansa into Jeyne Poole at WF + reuniting with Jon at CB and recruiting an army to retake WF) caused a significant “butterfly effect” or “avalanche” that, among other things, suppressed or cut into Arya’s show! storyline.

    Oh, definitely — but I don’t think this suppressed or cut into Arya’s storyline but rather, expanded Sansa’s storyline and changed it quite a bit to give Sansa more of a role in season 5 and beyond (in giving her Jeyne Poole’s storyline, causing an avalanche — like you said). Had Arya been the one who was actually at Winterfell being forced to marry Ramsay, I’d agree but as of ADWD, she’s still in Braavos like she is in season 6 of the show.

    Just curious: Many book readers now say they visualize Maisie Williams when they read about Arya. Do you think GRRM can’t help but envision “his” Arya the same way?
    I know he was super excited – and relieved – when they found “our Arya” when casting Maisie Williams; and he was gushing over her performance in the S1 Episode Commentary he narrated. (There was at least one Commentary he narrated – with one of Arya & Syrio’s water dance lessons. I’m not sure if there were others.)

    It might be interesting to know if his conceptions and portrayals of his characters are influenced by the performances of the actresses and actors who play them.

    This is a great question! I’m curious to see how other people respond as well!

    This might be deviating from the topic you introduced but for me, some of the book characters in my head don’t resemble the actors and actresses on the show. They’re great and I love them, I wouldn’t have preferred any other cast but there are some differences between some show!characters’ appearances and the book!characters’ appearances in my mind’s eye.

    For example:

    Dany: In my mind, book!Dany is a bit more ethereal looking, shorter hair for the most part (due to it being burned off when her dragons hatched in book 1), and has more of an adolescent appearance.

    Sansa: Darker hair (a browner tone enriched with some tones of red to as per her book auburn hair, looking a bit more like Robb and Catelyn’s hair colour in the show), still a child/very young teen, darker blue eyes. I picture her more like this illustration (by Arantza Sestayo). In my head, I can see the resemblance between her, Robb, Catelyn, Bran, and Rickon whereas in the show, I thought Jon, Robb, (pre-season 4) Bran, and Arya all looked related.

    Jon: Dark hair, dark eyes like in the show but with a longer face, more adolescent, often beardless (quite a few of the ASOIAF illustrations of Jon depict him beardless).

    Robb: In my head, he looks a lot like Richard Madden but a bit more adolescent 🙂

    Arya: I can’t include a second link in this post without it going into moderation but there’s this illustration of her and Jon hugging good-bye (by artist Magali Villeneuve) and this is how Arya appears in my mind.

    However, the Lannisters look pretty much like their show counterparts in my head, and so do the Stark parents — although I know Catelyn, Ned, and Tyrion in particular are quite a bit younger in the books (Catelyn is only in her early 30s, Ned is in his mid-30s and Tyrion is about 25 in the first book).

  150. Young Dragon,

    ”Arya stabbed Meryn Trant half a dozen times, gouged out his eyes, and continued to stab him after he’d been neutralized, before cutting his throat. She certainly made her justice, but she took it to far.“

    Oh, alright. She got a teenie bit carried away. He did hit her with a stick and knocked the wind out of her though.

    Another thing: The show went out of its way to make the audience want MFT to face “extreme justice,” with his rejection of a procession of beautiful young sex workers as “too old.” You could say they “took it too far”, in order to make his enucleation and exsanguination palatable.

    (Pardon the e-words: my go-to euphemisms for Arya gouging out eyes + poking people full of holes so the blood leaks out … and they die.)

    👸🏻🔪 🩸💉

  151. Ten Bears,

    It’s true that Tyrion’s dialogue was less sharp in the later seasons, which was most likely due to their running out of source material. Then again, it was less sharp in Book 5, as well, so maybe Martin ran into the same problem. Tyrion’s cleverness, however, has not changed. With that, I mean people tend to exaggerate his intelligence. You mentioned Tyrion turning Lancelot into a pile of jelly as an example of his intelligence. I mean, it was a great scene, but we’re talking about Lancel Lannister. It couldn’t have been that difficult. Don’t get me wrong, he possesses above average intelligence, but he’s hardly infallible.

    In the earlier seasons, the only times he displayed intelligence was during season 2, as Hand. He made some good political moves, and he managed King’s Landings defenses very well. In seasons 1, 3, and 4, however, he was more witty than intelligent.

  152. Ten Bears,

    I figured him wanting younger girls was a way for the show to set up Arya’s kill, but I see what you’re saying. It’s strange, but Arya’s butchery of the man made me scared for her, not happy that Trant was gone.

  153. Adrianacandle,

    I pulled up Magali Villeneuve’s illustration of Jon and Arya (link below)…

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/dd06324c45b237842864c2ee311ec631/tumblr_ofbjzhGtZC1u2n5cyo1_400.jpg


    I also noticed the same artist’s rendition of
    Cersei with dying Joffrey (link below). Although the backdrop is different from the show setting, the artist’s image of Cersei looks just like Lena Headey. I have to assume it was based on the actress, though none of the other GoT character illustrations looked like their show counterparts.

    https://external-preview.redd.it/L_hvowSN1YBVp3WQAmKhV9TRrtIaB1wnwtfMnVlANaE.jpg?auto=webp&s=981a1bc118321facf9f3bc45c43398aecc13f9ab

    About book! Sansa’s appearance, you wrote:

    ”Sansa: Darker hair (a browner tone enriched with some tones of red to as per her book auburn hair, looking a bit more like Robb and Catelyn’s hair colour in the show), still a child/very young teen, darker blue eyes. I picture her more like this illustration (by Arantza Sestayo). In my head, I can see the resemblance between her, Robb, Catelyn, Bran, and Rickon whereas in the show, I thought Jon, Robb, (pre-season 4) Bran, and Arya all looked related.”

    Nice illustration of Sansa & Sandor. The artist’s rendition of Sandor resembles Rory McCann.
    Sansa in the picture looks different from show! Sansa.

    And on that note, I’m going to segue into my Musical Interlude/Sansa Stark Tribute in a few minutes.

    🕊(Little Bird)

  154. Ten Bears,

    I pulled up Magali Villeneuve’s illustration of Jon and Arya (link below)…

    Yes! That’s the one! (This artist’s rendition of Jon also looks close to the one in my head as well, I also like this one a lot by Tim Teiiku)

    Cersei with dying Joffrey (link below). Although the backdrop is different from the show setting, the artist’s image of Cersei looks just like Lena Headey. I have to assume it was based on the actress, though none of the other GoT character illustrations looked like their show counterparts.

    Thanks for linking that image! Yes, this artist’s rendition of Cersei does have a resemblance to Lena Headey.

    Nice illustration of Sansa & Sandor. The artist’s rendition of Sandor resembles Rory McCann.
    Sansa in the picture looks different from show! Sansa.

    Sandor in this illustration looks identical to Rory McCann. And yes, for me, Sophie Turner’s Sansa never really resembled the one in my head. However, despite the age difference between show!Sandor and book!Sandor (in AGOT, Sandor is 26-27 years old), I didn’t experience such a disparity between my mental image of the Hound vs. the show’s. It’s kind of funny how that works and varies between each reader/viewer (what they imagine vs. how close a show’s/movie’s casting matches this mental image, which can change pretty dramatically from person to person).

    For example, Alan Rickman’s Snape was older than book!Snape as well (in the books, Snape is aged 31-38 throughout the series while Rickman was in his 50s-60s) but Rickman still became Snape to me in many ways. It was an odd case in which Rickman’s image sort of took over the original one in my head.

    And on that note, I’m going to segue into my Musical Interlude/Sansa Stark Tribute in a few minutes.

    🕊(Little Bird)

    Yay!

  155. Ten Bears,

    I don’t know if you’ve seen this or not but I got a kick out of it! 🙂

    Game of Thrones characters reimagined as Disney characters featuring:

    – The Night King channeling Frozen’s Elsa
    – Jon and Ghost (don’t know what Jon is planning on doing with that squirrel…)
    – Dany and Drogon
    – Bran, Hodor, and motivational chicken
    – Cruella deCersei
    – The Adventures of Arya and the Hound
    – Beauty and the Beast with Jaime and Brienne
    – Varys and his Little Birds
    – Oberyn and the Mountain
    – Melisandre and her shadow assassin
    – Tyrion and wine

  156. Adrianacandle,

    The Sansa Musical Interlude is in progress, along with the disclaimer arising out of the “dilemma” I described in my June 26, 2020 comments at 6:41 am and 8:28 am, arising out of my perceptions of Sansa’s scene with Sandor in S8e4. I’m also looking for the best audio track and live version of the song.

    In the meantime, I may post a follow-up musical dedication to GRRM & TWOW, to supplement “Someday Never Comes” (posted a day or two ago).

  157. Tiago:
    As for TWOW, I think we still have to wait some time before it comes to life. The book requires careful work in putting the characters ready to the endgame, sychronizing all the plot points and presenting a good narrative to the reader. And there’s the rewriting. He has characters and material to write more than 1.500 pages. I believe he’ll have to trim that to satisfy the publishers’ needs.

    Musical Dedication to GRRM + TWOW
    (Part 2)

    “Tired of Waiting for You” (1965)
    The Kinks (2:32 long)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZ335KtBIQ

    📆

  158. Ten Bears: Musical Dedication to GRRM + TWOW(Part 2)

    “Tired of Waiting for You” (1965)
    The Kinks (2:32 long)

    [link]

    📆

    Just in time before my melatonin kicks in for a few hours! 🙂 🌃🌙

  159. Ten Bears,

    (continued from above)
    Musical Dedication to GRRM + TWOW

    “Tired of Waiting” (1965) The Kinks
    Lyrics Excerpts

    🎼”So tired, tired of waiting,
    Tired of waiting for you.
    So tired, tired of waiting,
    Tired of waiting for you.

    I was a lonely soul,
    I had nobody ‘til I met you.
    But you keep me waiting,
    all of the time,
    What can I do?

    It’s your life,
    and you can do what you want.
    Do what you like,
    but please don’t keep-a me waiting,
    Please don’t keep-a me waiting,

    ‘Cause I’m so tired,
    Tired of waiting,
    Tired of waiting for you…”
    🎶

  160. Ten Bears: Melatonin gives you vivid dreams, right? Or does it help you go to sleep?

    Yes, it does a good job of helping me sleep (and the drowsiness is starting to kick in now!)

    I can’t remember if my dreams are more vivid but I’ll make a mental note to check 🙂

  161. Adrianacandle,

    “Would Jaime count for both Young Cersei and Future Cersei?”

    Cersei killed her friend Melara because her question to the witch was “will I ever marry Jamie Lannister”?
    The nerve! 😂

  162. Ten Bears,

    I definitely see an effort to have the actors resemble Martin’s imaginary characters. Arya in the books will probably become tall and slender. ST’s casting was definitely decided because of her high cheekbones which book Sansa has.
    But the showrunners have taken distance from hair coloring. All the Stark children are red-headed apart from Jon and Arya, which frustrates Catelyn; she’d like her children (in particular Robb, who is heir) to look like Ned. Not because they’re Starks, but she is deeply bothered by the fact that Ned’s illegitimate son looks like him, while she gave him three sons.

  163. Tron79,

    Tyrion did get abducted by Jorah, but he ended up in a different place by the end of ADWD. Did you get that

    he murdered that Yunkai’i master he was sold to? I suppose, apart from treating Tyrion horribly, his reasoning was that he arranged for the lions. I liked that part a lot because at first I didn’t understand what I was reading; it was implied that he used the poisoned mushrooms he keeps in his shoes although the master was dying from the pale mare anyway. This might be the second person he has murdered in the books. The other one was the singer, Shae’s friend. (I’m not counting Tywin’s murder; in total, three, that is. He’s out for revenge!)
  164. Efi,

    Cersei killed her friend Melara because her question to the witch was “will I ever marry Jamie Lannister”?
    The nerve! 😂

    Well, if Melara did indeed ask that… 😉

    But I was more counting Jaime as being important to both Young Cersei and Future Cersei — I think it’d be more a matter about not having him taken away from her in some form. However, I doubt she’d react positively to him being married off to somebody else D:

    But the showrunners have taken distance from hair coloring. All the Stark children are red-headed apart from Jon and Arya, which frustrates Catelyn; she’d like her children (in particular Robb, who is heir) to look like Ned.

    For some of the kids, yeah, the hair colour doesn’t quite align — I think show!Robb’s hair colour is the most accurate since it’s auburn (and looks the same shade as show!Catelyn’s) but show!Sanas’s hair is red-red instead of auburn while Bran is brunette and Rickon looked to be a dirty blonde to light brunette.

    I think Arya’s shade of brown is about right though.

  165. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

    “You summarized it well here regarding that there’s more than often “what” and not “how” that’s the usual reason for mass audience’s displeasure. Something I wonder about is if people, who were displeased with ending, were asked to rewrite these final chapters of the story to their satisfaction but under condition that Dany’s downfall remains in the story. I’m very much sure a lot of people would struggle or they would just label this as “not a good story”.”

    Thanks! I think though this would be an unfair question to put to the fans, for the reason that most of them are in it for their favorites. Not many have the interest or the skills to dissect a story into its components for reaching an ending that would closely resemble the ending of the author/producers (why would the even bother to do that? It’s not their job!). Many are displeased without even knowing what they are displeased about. It doesn’t make their protests any less valid; not being able to finger-point at the thing that makes you uneasy doesn’t cancel your sentiment altogether.
    Also people have a right to not like what they see even if the reason is as shallow as Jon-Daenerys not living happily everafter (or dying heroically saving the world for that matter); after all, why would anyone like an entire show with such a bitter ending? How does one’s life improve if real people’s deepest fears are confirmed in the end? Yes, there’s no happy endings, we already knew that, we don’t need a show to remind us of that. A good ending, on the other hand, either in the direction of the author/producers or the direction the fans wanted it, would make one at least smile, thinking of it fondly. This is why people who didn’t like the ending tend to be angry; they’re frustrated and after a year and more the distance hasn’t really helped them.
    As for me, I was in it for the story itself –with regard to the show, for the particular political story that is very well fleshed out at least in seasons 1-4; the rest somehow fell short. The books have a magic of their own, as they are very carefully structured; the author uses many literary motives and tropes, adapts them, reverses them, baits the readers only to pull the rug from beneath their feet, the language is amazing, there’s symbolism, foreshadowing, and deeper meaning hidden in dialogs that often seem superficial, there’s reason and consequence. It’s fun decoding the books.

  166. I hesitated to address this because I want to avoid the endless debate over whether Dany’s actions in King’s Landing were built up or not but I’d like to respond to proposed reasons of why some are unhappy with her ending.

    Efi: Not many have the interest or the skills to dissect a story into its components for reaching an ending that would closely resemble the ending of the author/producers (why would the even bother to do that? It’s not their job!). Many are displeased without even knowing what they are displeased about. It doesn’t make their protests any less valid; not being able to finger-point at the thing that makes you uneasy doesn’t cancel your sentiment altogether.

    Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: My other friend Monica on other hand, she pretty much cared for only Jon and Dany… she believed them to be THE story. And at same time, she believes that at the end of every story, no matter how twisted and dark it is overall, there has to be happily ever after because that’s what audience deserves… that all top-tier characters need to survive and achieve firm happines for the rest of their lives while all bad guys, even if they redeemed themselves through the story, need to die because “they dont’ deserve to live”.

    I don’t think viewer displeasure with Dany’s ending only has to do with these reasons and I think some do know why are they are displeased.

    It’s true that some would not accept Dany’s villainy under any circumstances, wanted Dany to die heroically if she had to die at all, wanted Jon and Dany to live happily ever after, wanted their faves to be happy.

    But this doesn’t apply to all viewers displeased with Dany’s ending. Some who are unhappy with how the culmination of her arc was done aren’t Dany fans, don’t believe the mains had to end up happy, don’t think Jon and Dany had to live happily ever after. Some think that the show’s choices for the final episodes of Dany’s arc just didn’t work.

    Some of their reasons share similarities with the reasons Efi cited for why she was displeased with the conclusions of the Starks’ storylines (Efi: “the show left the audience with the feeling that saving the world is futile since you’ll be condemned by the establishment and damned by the gods, if you’re a savage criminal you’ll pay community service while actually getting to rule and Big Brother surveillance solely secures stability, if you’re a woman you can’t have both family and power, if you’re a misfit there’s no place for you so you must roam the world as an explorer.”).

    Which is fair. I came away from the show with a few unhappy messages myself, I also felt the ending was more bitter than sweet. I don’t think this is what the show was going for but it doesn’t change the feeling all the same.

    But others had similar feelings over Dany’s end too. For example, Petra, in her examination of Daenery’s arc. Petra explains how Daenerys isn’t a favourite of hers and thought that potential for a villain arc was established early on (when Daenerys killed MMD because she felt this recontextualized Dany as the villain in MMD’s story). Petra also points out the rigidity of Dany’s worldview, moral superiority, and resulting entitlement, and the issues with imposing a personal worldview on another culture and the problems which come with it (adding that the show and the books were able to justify by making Dany’s opposers evil).

    However, Petra also felt there were problems with Dany’s decision to burn KL in the way she did (an inconsistency with the motives behind her decision to burn KL). And with Dany becoming the villain, questions the messages a villain conclusion to her arc might send:

    What meaning is there in turning Daenerys into a monster? That ambition is wrong? That wanting to help people is bad? That trying to break the wheel of injustice or indeed the cycle of abuse is futile?

    Moreover, Daenerys was a trauma survivor who took control of her own life, who rose from the ashes to carve a place for herself in a world that didn’t want her, and that meant a lot to a lot of people. Ending her story this way feels deeply deeply cynical.

    And I think this is valid too.

    She also had an alternative way for this storyline to go down which would have worked for her:

    Slavery and rape are technically illegal in Westeros, after all… except on the Iron Islands.

    Okay — what if, instead of relegating the Iron Islands to the background after Yara’s rescue, we found out that the reforms Daenerys demanded Yarra institute didn’t actually go over that well amongst the Ironborn. Iron Island history is full of failed reforms after all. What if, after Daenerys took the throne peacefully in King’s Landing, she found out that the people of this archipelago were still practicing a lot of the awful things she put a stop to in Essos, not only defying her authority but also her “correct” worldview.

    From there, events can unfold more or less the same way they did in episode 5. But on the Iron Islands, with Daenerys raining fire and blood down on the Ironborn because, well, they had their chance to change and they squandered it: maybe salt wives refused to leave when Daenerys gives them the chance because their children have grown into respected Ironborn whom Daenerys intends to burn — an indication that the values and practices Daenerys wants to eradicate are so deeply embedded in Ironborn culture, she can’t separate out the good victims from the bad oppressors like she used to. So she burns them all and we get a scene similar to ones we’ve had before in which Daenerys purges a land of bad people but this time, we’re seeing it from the perspective of those who don’t actually want it to happen.

    You can take or leave this however you like, I’m not saying this is the only right way to do this, and if the way the show executed Dany’s decision to burn KL worked for anyone, that’s awesome! 🙂

    But I’d say reasons for view dissatisfaction are varied and some do have valid points.

    For instance, I do believe the show endings of the mains will more or less happen in the books as well. And I think there are some solid concepts behind many of them — even Dany’s and the burning of KL, however much I may not personally like it because Efi is right, it doesn’t feel good. Yet that doesn’t mean there isn’t a viable idea being explored by Dany’s descent into villainy.

  167. Efi:
    Tron79,

    Tyrion did get abducted by Jorah, but he ended up in a different place by the end of ADWD. Did you get that

    Efi:
    Tron79,

    Tyrion did get abducted by Jorah, but he ended up in a different place by the end of ADWD. Did you get that

    Thanks Efi for reminding me just how much I need to do a re-read. I think doing a re-read of ADWD POV style is something I should do this summer. I’ll follow Tyrion’s chapters in order as well as Arya’s, Jon’s, etc….

    Yes, Jorah does eventually show up, but…

    Griff is the one that jumps in the water and gets greyscale in the books.
    You’re right that Jorah does eventually kidnap Tyrion, but Tyrion’s journey is far different. I guess I was thinking more that some of Jorah’s show role was really
    Jon Connington in the books. Tyrion’s path was more about deducing that he’s traveling with Prince Aegon (Young Griff) while playing cyvasse. Although Cyvasse is not the same game as chess, it reminded me that Tyrion was always strategic with his moves and was still very clever. I just thought D&D traded in some of Tyrion’s cleverness for plot points they thought might be better for TV. I quite enjoyed the way Tyrion ends with making a deal to fight with the Second Sons. I remember thinking it was quite clever.

    I believe it is “Nurse” that Tyrion kills with the mushrooms as payback for the lions, and also to aid in his escape. I think some have said that Nurse may have lasted longer than Yezzan. I hope I have the names right, but I think I do! If I messed up my memory, I really do think I will do a POV re-read this summer starting with Arya! But then going through each POV one at a time, and I might take my own notes this time as I do the re-read. I’ll have to treat it like being back in school which has been many many years, but I care a bunch about paying more attention to GRRM’s clues this time and seeing what I missed. I read both AFFC and ADWD as one big book, and with 2000 pages I think you don’t always take the time to let it all sink in and figure out the hints along the way.

  168. Efi,

    Adrianacandle,

    I mean, I remember there was this debate here and probably somewhere else how it’s “How” and not “What” that’s the issue with why people dislike the ending. But when it comes to mass audience, I’m very much sure Dany’s turn to antagonist would have always been polarizing to audience and that’s what I want to point out with that rethoric question. I personally haven’t been a big Dany fan and I had doubts about her character as early as when she burned Mirri Maz Duur – to the point that I started wondering whether I’m watching something wrong as everyone cheered for her but I kept questioning her actions over and over. Even more in sack of Astapor where entire non-slave population was put to the sword under her orders (honestly not that different situation than KL when I look at it now, only we were spared the ugly picture there). So maybe I was more “fond” of the ending than majority of fandom exactly because I was glad my doubts proved right. Also, I’m a big fan of dark stories in general… all my other favorite TV shows (LOST, TWD, Sopranos, Breaking Bad) deal with twisted stories and various descents and their endings are almost never “happy-happy” in full sense… so when I watched “The Iron Throne”, I saw the ending as this most peaceful as it could be in such twisted and traumatising story that GoT was. To be honest, the ending was more peaceful and more “light” than I thought it could be after “The Bells”. When I look overall, GoT was never a happy story and majority of seasons were quite traumatising for main protagonists, S6 maybe being an exception. Maybe I deep down felt that the tables can’t just fully turn at the end… it just wouldn’t be GOT-like in my head.

    I don’t know… maybe I already can’t and probably will never understand how it is to be actively disappointed by conclusion because out of everything I watched, the very only TV show I didn’t really enjoy was “Leftovers” (and ironically, I started watching it because my fellow LOST fans kept praising it to immense heights). Everything else I watcehed, rewatched or am still watching, I’m fully emotionally invested and can’t even see me getting “disappointed” with any of them. Yes, there are usually bits I’m less fond of (although GoT is pretty much devoid of them in my case as I’m fully invested in every episode here) but these bits usually barely affect my overall journey. So, I don’t know.

  169. Adrianacandle,

    I see that we basically agree here, rather than disagree. I’m also with Eric, thinking that the burning of KL in particular was a very polarizing ending.
    [and I see that. I was displeased with how the Starks were treated as protagonists, but most were in it for Daenerys, not the Starks, who seemed rather boring especially after season 6]
    I was just saying that people’s reasons needn’t be as complicated as ours, or even Petras’ who’d like it to be more explicit.
    Petra seems to be confounding books and show; in the show it is not said that the Ironborn engaged in slavery, so such a story at the end would have made little sense to the audience. But in general Daenerys’ attempt to harness the aspects of the civilization of Essos which she didn’t like was not included in the show, with the sole exeption of the fighting pits (there’s more, the floppy ears, dog eating, the tokar garment…). Slavery is sth like a “banner” for Daenerys’ fans, but they haven’t taken much time to think that the people freed by Daenerys in Essos had no choice but to follow her, just like -in the books- Victarion and perhaps even Asha think about their captives following them as “not being exactly slavery” because slavery is not accepted in Westeros. In other words, why is it that incorporating the Ironborn’s captives into the Iron Islands culture “slavery” and Daenerys’ freedmen are free?
    All in all, the questions posed during this discussion of decodifying show and books are very difficult to answer and the replies may vary according to individual perceptions.

    As for me, I think that what most people missed when they dislike the ending -Daenerys’ burning of KL and her subsequent death- was the vindication of the victim, as in my post above. Petra wrote this:

    “Moreover, Daenerys was a trauma survivor who took control of her own life, who rose from the ashes to carve a place for herself in a world that didn’t want her, and that meant a lot to a lot of people. Ending her story this way feels deeply deeply cynical.”

    We all sympathise with the victims and Daenerys was a victim herself. But in this most people missed that she came as a conqueror with the purpose to sit on a throne that didn’t belong to her in the first place, that she tended to confuse with “home”, swaying power over a nuclear deterrent, although she had chances to create another home for herself (in the Dothraki Sea, in Meereen, even in Pentos). But she decided to chase the chimaira that was Westeros and the throne/home.

    And also this (Petra’s again):

    “So she burns them all and we get a scene similar to ones we’ve had before in which Daenerys purges a land of bad people but this time, we’re seeing it from the perspective of those who don’t actually want it to happen.”

    With all due respect, but we’ve seen this already in the Field of Fire II. We saw this battle from the PoVs of Jamie and Tyrion, who didn’t want the country to burn; we saw Bronn struggling to reach through fire and Dothraki to the scorpion. How different was that from what Petra is proposing? Just because we hate the Lannisters? Don’t we hate the Ironborn the same, or are they suddenly sympathetic just because Yara offered alliance to Daenerys? Moreover, the effect of FoF II is discussed again in the presence of Bronn, although the unfortunate set up with all the nudity might have distracted people from the discussion about burns and burned eyelids. I don’t think a repetition of the FoF II in season 8 was needed.
    [and FoF II was carefully directed; at some point we don’t see Daenerys, the bomber, we only see the victims, which is the same technique applied to 8.5].

    Of course people felt cheated by this ending. But it was an ending Daenerys’ own choises brought her to. This is why careful watchers were not surprised. It was all there. Could it have been better? Sure. Would it make any difference if it was better? That’s a tough one, but imo rather not, because nothing would have softened the blow for those who expected the victim’s vindication.

    [I have to say that 8.5. was one of the best eps I ever saw on TV, ever. I don’t remember what I voted, but I left it out because it was so emotionally charged, but that doesn’t change my appreciation].

  170. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

    I mean, I remember there was this debate here and probably somewhere else how it’s “How” and not “What” that’s the issue with why people dislike the ending. But when it comes to mass audience, I’m very much sure Dany’s turn to antagonist would have always been polarizing to audience and that’s what I want to point out with that rethoric question. I personally haven’t been a big Dany fan and I had doubts about her character as early as when she burned Mirri Maz Duur – to the point that I started wondering whether I’m watching something wrong as everyone cheered for her but I kept questioning her actions over and over. Even more in sack of Astapor where entire non-slave population was put to the sword under her orders (honestly not that different situation than KL when I look at it now, only we were spared the ugly picture there). So maybe I was more “fond” of the ending than majority of fandom exactly because I was glad my doubts proved right. Also, I’m a big fan of dark stories in general… all my other favorite TV shows (LOST, TWD, Sopranos, Breaking Bad) deal with twisted stories and various descents and their endings are almost never “happy-happy” in full sense… so when I watched “The Iron Throne”, I saw the ending as this most peaceful as it could be in such twisted and traumatising story that GoT was. To be honest, the ending was more peaceful and more “light” than I thought it could be after “The Bells”. When I look overall, GoT was never a happy story and majority of seasons were quite traumatising for main protagonists, S6 maybe being an exception. Maybe I deep down felt that the tables can’t just fully turn at the end… it just wouldn’t be GOT-like in my head.

    I don’t know… maybe I already can’t and probably will never understand how it is to be actively disappointed by conclusion because out of everything I watched, the very only TV show I didn’t really enjoy was “Leftovers” (and ironically, I started watching it because my fellow LOST fans kept praising it to immense heights). Everything else I watcehed, rewatched or am still watching, I’m fully emotionally invested and can’t even see me getting “disappointed” with any of them. Yes, there are usually bits I’m less fond of (although GoT is pretty much devoid of them in my case as I’m fully invested in every episode here) but these bits usually barely affect my overall journey. So, I don’t know.

    I would agree that Dany’s turn would always be polarizing to the audience, no matter what, and for various reasons. For many, emotion does figure into it (and for me too). We’ve been living with these characters for years, we’ve developed feelings (good, bad, and everything in between about them), and with some characters, we’ve related to them on personal levels (maybe this would have a different impact for a view with no prior knowledge or experience of the series binge-watching all eight seasons in one go?) Other reasons involve more character-based or plot-related aspects not lining up for these viewers personally while for some viewers, like yourself, this did work.

    I think people are going to feel how they feel about some things and for different reasons. I don’t think it’s just a matter of people wanting a happy story. For some, like your friend, that very well may be the case. For others, there are different issues.

    Myself, I do love me some twisted stories (I couldn’t not watch The Human Centipede for instance and one of my favourite shows is Breaking Bad!). I definitely didn’t expect a happy ending for many characters in GoT/ASOIAF because I don’t think that’s what this story is. I think this is a story exploring fantasy types in more realistic settings and that may mean less-than-happy endings. I had the expectation that while the main characters would suffer to get to the conclusion, the ‘sweet’ part would be a hopeful turn for the world they’re living in (ie. hope for the world and its survivors, misery for characters on a personal level in order to get to that point).

    The show’s ending worked for you and I think you have reasons which make your feelings as to why just as valid as the reasons of one who didn’t like the ending. I think there are a myriad of reasons for this, probably too many to explain in this post, but it comes down to the individual.

  171. Efi:
    Adrianacandle,

    Of course people felt cheated by this ending. But it was an ending Daenerys’ own choises brought her to. This is why careful watchers were not surprised. It was all there. Could it have been better? Sure. Would it make any difference if it was better? That’s a tough one, but imo rather not, because nothing would have softened the blow for those who expected the victim’s vindication.

    [I have to say that 8.5. was one of the best eps I ever saw on TV, ever. I don’t remember what I voted, but I left it out because it was so emotionally charged, but that doesn’t change my appreciation].

    (The bold part) – This is exactly my point. In the midst of all reasons and arguments that people may have for liking or not liking the scene, I just don’t see how this story chapter would unfold without being polarizing. I can honestly say that I was 50/50 on Dany snapping or not snapping all the way to the Bells but I can say really alarming signs started to happen for me in “Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”, after me kind of accepting after S6 that she’s likely to end up “good”. I remember complaints from book readers in previous seasons that the producers are toning down Dany’s flaws too much… I’m not sure about that because I personally still saw scenes where her actions were questioned in my head.

    I still need to rewatch the show one day (I’m intentionally waiting in order for it to feel fresh again) and I wonder how will I see Dany’s story now, knowing where her story is headed. I definitely feel S6 will now seem more dark to me, regarding Dany’s decision to depart. Because that’s the moment when she was at her “peak” regarding her achievements… of course ignoring that she needed to be there for battle against White Walkers. That’s the beauty of rewatches for me – how scenes feel more meaningful, knowing the full story.

  172. Efi,

    (Part 1 — long due to quotes 🙁 )

    [and I see that. I was displeased with how the Starks were treated as protagonists, but most were in it for Daenerys, not the Starks, who seemed rather boring especially after season 6]

    I don’t know if that’s true — that most were in it for Daenerys. To me, this feels like a bit of an assumption simply because we don’t know that or have the data to back an assertion like this up. Yes, there are people who are in it for Daenerys and she’s among the most popular characters but I don’t think I’d boil it down to that alone or that this encompasses why viewers felt dissatisfaction over her ending. I don’t think it’s entirely fair to generalize, even with the more general viewership.

    Plus, Dany, too, was a protagonist as well. She was a lead character in this, somebody whose journey we followed along on day 1. People were drawn to her for varied reasons like people are drawn to Jon or Arya or Tyrion or Sansa. But I don’t think that Dany being a villain in the end discounts what messages they felt in ending her arc as a villain.

    I was just saying that people’s reasons needn’t be as complicated as ours, or even Petras’ who’d like it to be more explicit.

    I don’t think that’s at the heart of Petra’s argument, I think it’s a matter of motive and what Dany’s fatal flaw is:

    We could have had 10 whole episodes between Missandei’s death and those ill-fated bells and it still wouldn’t have worked because there’s no coherent narrative throughline connecting the Daenerys Targaryen of the first seven and a half seasons to the villain we got in the last two episodes.

    Episodes four and five lean heavily into the notion that it’s madness that Daenerys is succumbing to hereditary insanity but the final episode reframes the destruction of King’s Landing as merely an escalation from her practices in Essos. Some have argued that she didn’t actually go mad when she destroyed King’s Landing but rather acted out of grief anger and rejection, which might have worked except that in episode six, Daenerys reprises rhetoric from earlier seasons in such a way that makes her seem delusional. If the show had only settled on one fatal flaw for Daenerys and followed through on that to the end, things might have panned out differently.

    The other fatal flaw the show optioned for Daenerys — her sense of moral superiority and her consequential sense of entitlement had a lot more potential and not coincidentally, was the reason I could never join the Danny bandwagon, much as I wanted to.

    And I think there might be something to be said for Dany trying to impose her worldview onto others, trying to make the world into how she wants it to be based on what she views as moral and right, going to extremes to achieve her ideals in a Utopia Justifies the Means fashion (and I think this is what they were going for in 8×06). She’ll punish those who don’t ascribe to her worldview

    Petra seems to be confounding books and show; in the show it is not said that the Ironborn engaged in slavery, so such a story at the end would have made little sense to the audience.

    There is thralldom though. It’s not the same as slavery, thralls have more rights than slaves do, but they do represent a class of oppressed people, which Dany might very well be opposed to because they are captives. This also depends on who she views as the oppressed and what cultural practices she finds morally reprehensible like she did in Meereen (ie. the fighting pits).

    Slavery is sth like a “banner” for Daenerys’ fans, but they haven’t taken much time to think that the people freed by Daenerys in Essos had no choice but to follow her, just like -in the books- Victarion and perhaps even Asha think about their captives following them as “not being exactly slavery” because slavery is not accepted in Westeros.

    I’m not sure how these slaves weren’t given a choice. Not all the slaves entered her service, Dany did give them a choice. Some chose to follow her (like Missandei and the Unsullied) but not all the slaves have. These people weren’t Dany’s captives.

    In contrast, the thralls in the Iron Islands are bound to their captors and are required to perform tasks, some of which are not suitable for “free men”:

    From The World of Ice and Fire:

    The reavers brought more than gold and grain back to the Iron Islands; they brought captives as well, who would henceforth serve their captors as thralls. Amongst the ironborn, only reaving and fishing were considered worthy work for free men. The endless stoop labor of farm and field was suitable only for thralls. The same was true for mining. Yet those thralls who were set to field work counted themselves fortunate, Haereg writes, for many and more of them lived to grow old and were even allowed to marry and have children. Such could not be said of those condemned to work the mines—those dark, dangerous pits beneath the hills where the masters were brutal, the air was dank and foul, and life was short.

    Most of the male captives brought back to the Iron Islands spent the remainder of their lives at hard labor in the fields or mines. Some few, the sons of lords and knights and rich merchants, were ransomed for gold. Thralls who could read, write, and do sums served their masters as stewards, tutors, and scribes. Stonemasons, cordwainers, coopers, chandlers, carpenters, and other skilled craftsmen were even more valuable.

    Some, like Missandei and the Unsullied chose to follow Dany. However faulty her methods, Daenerys does have a genuine desire to free the oppressed and, in the books, it goes back to how she was once oppressed. This is also something Adam Feldman’s essays go over. Plus, Dany having to go back on her reforms for the sake of peace is a a contributing element which escalates Dany’s frustration and anger.

  173. Efi,

    In other words, why is it that incorporating the Ironborn’s captives into the Iron Islands culture “slavery” and Daenerys’ freedmen are free?

    Unless they’ve sworn themselves into Dany’s service, they are free. They aren’t be forced into Dany’s service unlike the Ironborn’s captives.

    We all sympathise with the victims and Daenerys was a victim herself. But in this most people missed that she came as a conqueror with the purpose to sit on a throne that didn’t belong to her in the first place, that she tended to confuse with “home”, swaying power over a nuclear deterrent, although she had chances to create another home for herself (in the Dothraki Sea, in Meereen, even in Pentos). But she decided to chase the chimaira that was Westeros and the throne/home.

    I don’t think people are missing this. For better or worse, I think some are sympathizing with this and her efforts to take back a throne that was taken from her family and relating to that struggle because we are seeing her journey from her perspective.

    With all due respect, but we’ve seen this already in the Field of Fire II. We saw this battle from the PoVs of Jamie and Tyrion, who didn’t want the country to burn; we saw Bronn struggling to reach through fire and Dothraki to the scorpion. How different was that from what Petra is proposing? Just because we hate the Lannisters? Don’t we hate the Ironborn the same, or are they suddenly sympathetic just because Yara offered alliance to Daenerys?

    No, it’s not about hating the Lannisters or feeling more sympathy for the Ironborn because Yara and Daenerys allied.

    The Field of Fire was a battle with soldiers vs soldiers. Dany hadn’t won the throne, she was battling for the throne as Cersei was, as Stannis was, as Renly was, and using all her might to do it.

    What Petra is proposing is different. She and Yara came to an agreement for the Ironborn’s independence (no raping, reaving, or raiding). In Petra’s scenario, the Ironborn don’t take this well and return to their ways regardless of these terms. This is what ignites Dany, the violation of this agreement (her authority) and the Ironborn resuming practices she told Yara that were not permitted because they conflict with (Dany’s) worldview — so Dany punishes everyone: the oppressors violating this policy and victims alike.

    Moreover, the effect of FoF II is discussed again in the presence of Bronn, although the unfortunate set up with all the nudity might have distracted people from the discussion about burns and burned eyelids. I don’t think a repetition of the FoF II in season 8 was needed.

    There are severe injuries incurred on the battlefield, yes. That’s always been true. People are maimed by all sorts of weapons, left to agonizing deaths on battlefields. But Petra’s proposal wouldn’t be a repeat. It’s not a battle on the battlefield. It’s the Ironborn rejecting Daenerys’s worldview by returning to the practices she does not approve of in spite of the terms she and Yara made and violating the terms of this agreement (Dany would allow them to remain independent and lend support in the war against Euron while Yara and her forcs would help Dany and abide by the terms of their alliance). It would be a failed reformation on Yara’s part, a rebellion on the Ironborn’s part, and an attempt to eradicate practices she doesn’t approve of on Dany’s part.

    Of course people felt cheated by this ending. But it was an ending Daenerys’ own choises brought her to. This is why careful watchers were not surprised. It was all there. Could it have been better? Sure. Would it make any difference if it was better? That’s a tough one, but imo rather not, because nothing would have softened the blow for those who expected the victim’s vindication.

    For some, no, absolutely nothing could have softened the blow — but for others, yes. It would have. A love for Daenerys and her character, wanting her to be a hero, isn’t only the reason why those who felt dissatisfaction with Daenerys’s ending were unhappy.

  174. Adrianacandle,

    Something a bit off-note: There’s been this random observation regarding storytelling that I made some time ago but I forgot on which thread… just like I feel S1 deconstructed fantasy genre and grounded the story in bleak cruel world where characters aren’t safe and such, I kind of feel S7/S8 did another deconstruction – deconstruction of protagonists. As much as the story initially seemed to be so not-fantasy-like, I kind of feel that at the end of S6, the story was very much at stage where it could unfold (or technically conclude) as this straightforward fantasy story. “Good guys vs bad guys”. Because at that stage we have Dany and the North as “good guys” and Cersei and White Walkers as bad guys. The story could have easily unfolded as Dany teaming up with Jon, possibly marrying and then causing Cersei’s downfall (I remember people were labeling Cersei as Mad Queen there and expected how she’ll be toast in matter of episodes) and then uniting the world against White Walkers. Yes, there would obviously be casualities in GoT spirit but this was shaping up as very “typical” conclusion. But what S7/S8 did was very much shake things up, mainly deconstructing protagonists and giving them a lot of tension towards each other despite being on same side and shifting several storylines around (compared to predictions). So it’s interesting when I look at it and I don’t really see it as that different than for example Ned’s beheading and Red Wedding – two occasions when I feel audience were forced to let go of fantasy-genre expectations and experience the harsh nature of GoT story. I really need to rewatch the show and observe characters’ behavior with their endpoints in mind… I think it will be additionally enlightening for me in order to understand their messed nature more.

  175. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

    Something a bit off-note: There’s been this random observation regarding storytelling that I made some time ago but I forgot on which thread… just like I feel S1 deconstructed fantasy genre and grounded the story in bleak cruel world where characters aren’t safe and such, I kind of feel S7/S8 did another deconstruction – deconstruction of protagonists. As much as the story initially seemed to be so not-fantasy-like, I kind of feel that at the end of S6, the story was very much at stage where it could unfold (or technically conclude) as this straightforward fantasy story. “Good guys vs bad guys”. Because at that stage we have Dany and the North as “good guys” and Cersei and White Walkers as bad guys. The story could have easily unfolded as Dany teaming up with Jon, possibly marrying and then causing Cersei’s downfall (I remember people were labeling Cersei as Mad Queen there and expected how she’ll be toast in matter of episodes) and then uniting the world against White Walkers. Yes, there would obviously be casualities in GoT spirit but this was shaping up as very “typical” conclusion. But what S7/S8 did was very much shake things up, mainly deconstructing protagonists and giving them a lot of tension towards each other despite being on same side and shifting several storylines around (compared to predictions). So it’s interesting when I look at it and I don’t really see it as that different than for example Ned’s beheading and Red Wedding – two occasions when I feel audience were forced to let go of fantasy-genre expectations and experience the harsh nature of GoT story. I really need to rewatch the show and observe characters’ behavior with their endpoints in mind… I think it will be additionally enlightening for me in order to understand their messed nature more

    Without going into my own issues with the plotting of season 8 since I think that discussion has been done to death (and I don’t think we’d get anywhere), yes, I never believed this story was one that was straight-up good vs. evil, no. I even think the war against the dead might not be so clear-cut either in the books. I think much of this story involves the struggle to do the right thing, to identify what the right thing even is in situations with more than one compelling side, to realize that it’s actually not quite-the-right thing, struggling with the “conflict of the human heart” and its impact on choices, the impact of trauma on choices and motivations, what power is and how to utilize it, the various ways its utilized and the consequences of that, and exploring actions (even heroic actions) and their various consequences both in-universe and to the story/character. And I think the story is meant to explore fantasy under more real-life circumstances.

    I don’t know if it’s really about deconstruction or subversion for deconstruction or subversion’s sake but about exploration of these traditional fantasy ideas. Like how GRRM talks about Jon getting shanked in book 5:

    When [James Hibberd] asked Martin what was Jon’s biggest “mistake,” the author thoughtfully replied, “Were they mistakes? I guess they were mistakes in some ways since they led to him losing control of part of his group. But it might have been wise and necessary decisions in terms of protecting the realm and dealing with the threat of the White Walkers. I’m a huge student of history, and all through history there’s always this question of what’s the right decision. You look back with benefit of hindsight at a battle that was lost and say, ‘The losing general was such an idiot.’ Was Napoleon a genius for all the battles he won? Or an idiot for losing at Waterloo? Partly I’m reacting to a lot of the fantasy that has come before this. Ruling is difficult whether you’re a Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch or the King of England. These are hard decisions and each have consequences. We’re looking at Jon trying to take control of Night’s Watch and deal with The Wildlings and the threat beyond The Wall, and we’re looking at Cersei and Dany in their kingdoms and their choices.”

  176. Adrianacandle:
    I hesitated to address this because I want to avoid the endless debate over whether Dany’s actions in King’s Landing were built up or not but I’d like to respond to proposed reasons of why some are unhappy with her ending.

    I don’t think viewer displeasure with Dany’s ending only has to do with these reasons and I think some do know why are they are displeased.

    It’s true that some would not accept Dany’s villainy under any circumstances, wanted Dany to die heroically if she had to die at all, wanted Jon and Dany to live happily ever after, wanted their faves to be happy.

    But this doesn’t apply to all viewers displeased with Dany’s ending. Some who are unhappy with how the culmination of her arc was done aren’t Dany fans, don’t believe the mains had to end up happy, don’t think Jon and Dany had to live happily ever after. Some think that the show’s choices for the final episodes of Dany’s arc just didn’t work.

    Some of their reasons share similarities with the reasons Efi cited for why she was displeased with the conclusions of the Starks’ storylines (Efi: “the show left the audience with the feeling that saving the world is futile since you’ll be condemned by the establishment and damned by the gods, if you’re a savage criminal you’ll pay community service while actually getting to rule and Big Brother surveillance solely secures stability, if you’re a woman you can’t have both family and power, if you’re a misfit there’s no place for you so you must roam the world as an explorer.”).

    Which is fair. I came away from the show with a few unhappy messages myself, I also felt the ending was more bitter than sweet. I don’t think this is what the show was going for but it doesn’t change the feeling all the same.

    But others had similar feelings over Dany’s end too. For example, Petra, in her examination of Daenery’s arc. Petra explains how Daenerys isn’t a favourite of hers and thought that potential for a villain arc was established early on (when Daenerys killed MMD because she felt this recontextualized Dany as the villain in MMD’s story). Petra also points out the rigidity of Dany’s worldview, moral superiority, and resulting entitlement, and the issues with imposing a personal worldview on another culture and the problems which come with it (adding that the show and the books were able to justify by making Dany’s opposers evil).

    However, Petra also felt there were problems with Dany’s decision to burn KL in the way she did (an inconsistency with the motives behind her decision to burn KL). And with Dany becoming the villain, questions the messages a villain conclusion to her arc might send:

    And I think this is valid too.

    She also had an alternative way for this storyline to go down which would have worked for her:

    You can take or leave this however you like, I’m not saying this is the only right way to do this, and if the way the show executed Dany’s decision to burn KL worked for anyone, that’s awesome! 🙂

    But I’d say reasons for view dissatisfaction are varied and some do have valid points.

    For instance, I do believe the show endings of the mains will more or less happen in the books as well. And I think there are some solid concepts behind many of them — even Dany’s and the burning of KL, however much I may not personally like it because Efi is right, it doesn’t feel good. Yet that doesn’t mean there isn’t a viable idea being explored by Dany’s descent into villainy.

    It’s remarkable how a year and a month after the end of Game of Thrones, fans continue to debate the fate of Daenerys. It seems all the comment sections in this site always end there one way or another.

    I gave my opinion in this site right after the end of the show. It hasn’t really changed since then. I was one of the fans who liked the character. In fact, I like all the main characters of this story and try to understand them the best I can. I was always puzzled by fans who skip scenes in the middle of episodes, just because they don’t like one character. The one exception might be Bran after season 4, as his humanity fades. One of the reasons I like GoT and ASOIAF are the very human struggles and dilemmas the characters fade.

    As for Daenerys, I don’t like her ending, because I think extermining an entire population, street by street, after the battle is won and the throne is ensured doesn’t fit her previous course of action. The most sensible explanation to what happened resides on her complete loss of self-awareness and declining mental health. For a character who was at the heart of the political dimension of this story, her being brought down like that isn’t very compelling, in my opinion. There’s a world apart between comitting genocide and flying straight to the Red Keep to kill Cersei, which would be the most understandable decision. Furthermore, Daenerys isn’t one of the most intelligent characters on GoT, but it was always one of those more resourceful in finding solutions to the problems she had to face.

    We see none of that in season 8. In my opinion, season 8 Daenerys looks like an entirely different character in comparison to the previous seven seasons. Her demeanor is remarkably different from 7×07 to 8×01. One of the most clear examples of that difference is, in my point of view, the first scene in the Winterfell hall: when the northern lords almost insult Jon for giving up the crown, what did Daenerys do? Nothing. She’s simply there, with straight face. In previous seasons, Daenerys had her speeches as a resort to win the hearts and minds of the people she wanted to convince. At Winterfell, that attitude is simply non-existent. I found it very strange.

    I understand Daenerys’ turn thematically and all the talk of having nuclear weapons that sooner or later would be triggered. That means she was doomed since the dragons were born. But her ending felt like something that the plot dictated, rather than an organic conclusion to her story. For example, it’s very convenient that everything goes wrong for her in season 8. It makes me feel like the writers are trying too hard to justify what will happen in “The bells”. They even put foreshadow in the preview just right before the episode begins, a thing I’ve never seen before.

    The other problem with her ending is how the other characters are bent to fit in Daenerys ending. It’s almost like they don’t have a life of their own. Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei are only there to make Daenerys goes wrong. We’re talking about characters we’ve followed for eight years, whose role is reduced to influence another character’ ending.

    It was created an idea that Daenerys’ fans don’t like the ending, because it didn’t feel good. That idea is true for some fans, but not all of them. On the same way, there are fans who are happy with the ending because they just hate the character. This emotional behaviour lie on the both sets of fans. It applies to all main characters, in fact. I’ve seen season 8 twice. I’ve tried to analyze how the characters endings fit in the stories told until that point, remembering all the scenes they were in. I liked Daenerys, but her ending wasn’t the only one I cared about. I didn’t like the ending of Sam and Gilly. I was bothered to see him dressed as a maester in the small council.

  177. Tron79: I’m jumping into the discussion here.Since the article talks about GRRM’s books, I have to compare book Tyrion.I think there was plenty of source material for D&D, but they decided not to use it. They went their own route in Meereen. I’m not totally unsympathetic to D&D, because GRRM did seem to get bogged down in Meereen.D&D didn’t want to take the same path.(However after reading the Feldman essays recommended by Adrianacandle, I have changed my opinion about GRRM really being bogged down. ) Verging from book Tyrion starting in Meereen is where I see D&D took a wrong turn with Tyrion’s character. Yes, the show goes further than the books with Tyrion, but the shift in Tyrion’s cleverness shifts when D&D veer from book Tyrion.

    You often hear about actors in daily soap operas here in the USA who get upset if the writers write lines that are “out of character”.I have heard actors rebelling with their writers and refusing to say lines that would destroy their character. I wouldn’t be surprised if Peter Dinklage was upset with D&D’s writing of Tyrion when D&D decided to make him “dumb and dumber”. D&D took Tyrion down an unfortunate path of being a horrible advisor. I really don’t see this happening in the books.

    I’m aware that Tyrion’s path in the book is different. I’ve read them long ago. I need to reread them to acknowledge many of the details usually discussed here that escape me at the moment. It remains to be seen what GRRM has in store for us on Tyrion.

  178. Tiago: I understand Daenerys’ turn thematically and all the talk of having nuclear weapons that sooner or later would be triggered. That means she was doomed since the dragons were born. But her ending felt like something that the plot dictated, rather than an organic conclusion to her story. For example, it’s very convenient that everything goes wrong for her in season 8. It makes me feel like the writers are trying too hard to justify what will happen in “The bells”. They even put foreshadow in the preview just right before the episode begins, a thing I’ve never seen before.

    The other problem with her ending is how the other characters are bent to fit in Daenerys ending. It’s almost like they don’t have a life of their own. Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei are only there to make Daenerys goes wrong. We’re talking about characters we’ve followed for eight years, whose role is reduced to influence another character’ ending.

    It was created an idea that Daenerys’ fans don’t like the ending, because it didn’t feel good. That idea is true for some fans, but not all of them. On the same way, there are fans who are happy with the ending because they just hate the character. This emotional behaviour lie on the both sets of fans. It applies to all main characters, in fact. I’ve seen season 8 twice. I’ve tried to analyze how the characters endings fit in the stories told until that point, remembering all the scenes they were in. I liked Daenerys, but her ending wasn’t the only one I cared about. I didn’t like the ending of Sam and Gilly. I was bothered to see him dressed as a maester in the small council.

    Yes, you’ve articulated some of my issues too. For those who felt this plot and these developments worked well, I think that’s great and I enjoy reading your reasons why. However, I had some issues.

    Tiago, I especially agree with your last paragraph. I think, for some, it’s a matter of emotion and preference on both sides (disclaimer to all: that’s not to say that all who felt satisfied with Dany’s end did so because they hate her or always saw her as this kind of monster, they can have other, non-emotional reasons for feeling the culmination of Dany’s arc made sense. But I think Tiago is right that this argument goes both ways for some fans).

  179. Ten Bears: Musical Dedication to GRRM + TWOW(Part 2)

    “Tired of Waiting for You” (1965)
    The Kinks (2:32 long)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZ335KtBIQ

    📆

    Great band.

    Since we’re discussing again season 8 ending, I answer to you with the following song (dedicated to all the critics and whiners of season 8, where I’m, in part, included, recognizing however that there were some good things in it).

    “You can’t always get what you want”, The Rolling Stones (1969)

  180. Tiago,

    Ah, very good! A Rolling Stones musical reference for S8.

    Then there’s also this for our Mad Queen and Episode 5…

    🎶 Ooh, see the fire is sweeping
    Our very street today
    Burns like a red coal carpet
    Mad bull lost your way.”
    🎵

    from The Rolling Stones, “Gimme Shelter.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbmS3tQJ7Os
    🔥

  181. Ten Bears,

    Considering the rather cheesy way Cersei later perished, don’t you kind of wish she’d had a more dramatic final exit on that staircase?

    I thought Cersei’s final exit was grand, romantic, and sadly inevitable, given that Jaime essentially chose to die with her. Finding her last exit blocked was the physical analog to her dead-end path of killing everyone to sit the Iron Throne, and thus having no way out when Dany & Dragons came a-callin’. Her death was thematically appropriate in multiple ways: with her twin brother (their incestuous relationship was the first step to them having “no way out”), in the city she’d refused to leave, with her title an empty farce.

    If any character had a ‘cheesy’ death on those stairs, it was Qyburn, dying of a very sudden onset of Creator-Monster Cliche Syndrome. (At what prior point in FrankenGregor’s miserable existence had he shown *any* hint of disobedience?) Having Qyburn escape, disguised as a simple laborer, would have been more fitting — even in the better Westeros, under King Bran and Hand Tyrion, corruption remains, hidden and lurking, awaiting an opportunity…

  182. Adrianacandle: Yes, you’ve articulated some of my issues too. For those who felt this plot and these developments worked well, I think that’s great and I enjoy reading your reasons why. However, I had some issues.

    Tiago, I especially agree with your last paragraph. I think, for some, it’s a matter of emotion and preference on both sides (disclaimer to all: that’s not to say that all who felt satisfied with Dany’s end did so because they hate her or always saw her as this kind of monster, they can have other, non-emotional reasons for feeling the culmination of Dany’s arc made sense. But I think Tiago is right that this argument goes both ways for some fans).

    Exactly. I think it’s perfectly fair that some fans have expected Daenerys to be a political leader who goes too far in trying to do something good. It’s a reasonable guess. Others predicted she would be a Mad Queen, based on her inheritance. I’m not a big fan of telling or showing her story from that perspective. Your family doesn’t determine your whole self, although it can be a part of it. If that was the case, the development that characters experience from their struggles wouldn’t be so relevant. They would be reduced to a mirror of their family values, traits or even stereotypes. All in all, I respect and enjoy reading any opinion favourable to season 8, if it is well reasoned.

  183. Ten Bears:
    Tiago,

    Ah, very good! A Rolling Stones musical reference for S8.

    Then there’s also this for our Mad Queen and Episode 5…

    🎶 Ooh, see the fire is sweeping
    Our very street today
    Burns like a red coal carpet
    Mad bull lost your way.”
    🎵

    from The Rolling Stones, “Gimme Shelter.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbmS3tQJ7Os
    🔥

    Oh yes! I love that song. Merry Clayton’s backing vocals are dope. Daenerys surely listened this song out of her vinyl collection in Dragonstone, before attacking KL. She thought angrily: “I will burn you all”.

  184. Tiago: Exactly. I think it’s perfectly fair that some fans have expected Daenerys to be a political leader who goes too far in trying to do something good. It’s a reasonable guess. Others predicted she would be a Mad Queen, based on her inheritance. I’m not a big fan of telling or showing her story from that perspective. Your family doesn’t determine your whole self, although it can be a part of it. If that was the case, the development that characters experience from their struggles wouldn’t be so relevant. They would be reduced to a mirror of their family values, traits or even stereotypes. All in all, I respect and enjoy reading any opinion favourable to season 8, if it is well reasoned.

    Yes, I agree (particularly about the inheritance bit — not to say it’s impossible. However, I have personal issues with the idea that blood /family defines who you are although, yes, it certainly can be part of one’s self). And one of my favourite ASOIAF bloggers predicted a dark turn for Daenerys in the books 7 years ago — this was something I wasn’t thrilled about, something I was hoping wouldn’t happen, but something that he made a good, strong case for all the same and he appeared to come at it from a pretty neutral, unbiased stance.

    And yes — I also enjoy reading a well-reasoned pro-season 8 opinion/argument too. I’ve read some good ones on Reddit/YouTube and I’ve guilded (gave a Reddit gold/silver/platinum to) a few posts. Like you, I respect those who enjoyed season 8 and I enjoy hearing their opinions as to why, I’m truly, truly glad it worked for some of us! I also think those who found problems with season 8 can make some good arguments and points as well.

  185. Adrianacandle: Yes, I agree (particularly about the inheritance bit — not to say it’s impossible. However, I have personal issues with the idea that blood /family defines who you are although, yes, it certainly can be part of one’s self). And one of my favourite ASOIAF bloggers predicted a dark turn for Daenerys in the books 7 years ago — this was something I wasn’t thrilled about, something I was hoping wouldn’t happen, but something that he made a good, strong case for all the same and he appeared to come at it from a pretty neutral, unbiased stance.

    Are you referring to Adam Feldman’s essay? He writes good stuff about ASOIAF. The dark path he envisions for Daenerys is understandable.

  186. Tiago: Are you referring to Adam Feldman’s essay? He writes good stuff about ASOIAF. The dark path he envisions for Daenerys is understandable.

    Yes! And I agree. I think he also wrote good stuff on Jon, Tyrion, Dorne, and made a good case for King Bran being set up from his first chapter.

    I don’t love the idea of King Bran but maybe it’ll be better set up and feel more organic in the books (should they ever come out).

  187. Just a note about the “valonqar” business. While I’ve enjoyed the dialogs here, we should mayhaps consider a wee thing or three:

    + The memory comes to Cersei in a dream, decades after she heard it from Maggy. Given that Cersei may well be an unreliable narrator in the first place, we have multiple reasons to doubt we’ve even read anything close to a true account of what — if anything — Maggy said.

    + Jaime could be her “little brother” in the sense he may have been born shortly after she was.

    + If he was born first, girls grow faster than boys, so Cersei could have been physically larger than Jaime at the time Maggy spoke; he would be her “little brother” in the physical sense.

    + Jaime mercy-killing Cersei as they are both about to die would satisfy the prophecy, and align with what we saw in the television version.

    + The dream of Maggy appears late in A Feast for Crows, the epilogue of which has Maester Marwyn schooling newly-arrived Sam on how prophecy is completely unreliable, warning Sam that even speaking of prophecy in The Citadel might get Sam some “poison in your porridge.”

    + “Prophecies coming true” in fantasy literature would make a BIG target for an author who delights in subverting tropes and confounding expectations of the genre.

  188. Off-note: my girlfriend started watching S7/S8 today after a few weeks of break since wrapping up S6 for first time (I told her to treat these two seasons as one 13-episode long season). She’s two episodes in (7.1 and 7.2) and according to her statements, she’s completely in love with the story and she loved these two episodes.

  189. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    + The memory comes to Cersei in a dream, decades after she heard it from Maggy. Given that Cersei may well be an unreliable narrator in the first place, we have multiple reasons to doubt we’ve even read anything close to a true account of what — if anything — Maggy said.

    Was it during a dream? I think we first hear about Maggy in AFFC, Cersei III during Tommen and Magaery’s wedding:

    Whenever Cersei looked at the old crone [Olenna], the face of Maggy the Frog seemed to float before her eyes, wrinkled and terrible and wise. All old women look alike, she tried to tell herself, that’s all it is. In truth, the bent-back sorceress had looked nothing like the Queen of Thorns, yet somehow the sight of Lady Olenna’s nasty little smile was enough to put her back in Maggy’s tent again. She could still remember the smell of it, redolent with queer eastern spices, and the softness of Maggy’s gums as she sucked the blood from Cersei’s finger. Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

    Or are you thinking of something else? (I think there is something to be said for unreliable narrator though)

    + Jaime could be her “little brother” in the sense he may have been born shortly after she was.

    Yes — I think Jaime is slightly younger than Cersei:

    She and Jaime were twins, but Cersei had come first into the world, and that was all it took.

    ____

    + If he was born first, girls grow faster than boys, so Cersei could have been physically larger than Jaime at the time Maggy spoke; he would be her “little brother” in the physical sense.

    This reminds me of that Arrested Development scene in which they suddenly put in “evidence” Lindsay is adopted and not Michael’s twin as everyone — except for the parents (who orchestrated the whole thing) — believed XD (And also unbeknownst to Lindsay or Michael, Lindsay is secretly three years older than him… so she’s about a foot taller and far more developed 😉 ):

    Young Lindsay: I’m a giant, fat pig.

    Young Michael: I don’t know why you say stuff like that. Girls just grow faster than boys.

    Lucille: Dinner’s ready. We’re having Lindsay chops. What? I want her to be prepared in case some bully at school is as clever as I am.

    Narrator: No bully ever would be.

  190. Adrianacandle,

    That’s probably not intention but Petra’s comments does sound entitled. Why is wrong for the story to be cynical? To say tha ambition is wrong and that trying to break the wheel of injustice or the cycle of abuse is futile?

    Because it makes her feel bad? I don’t get that. GoT and Benioff and Weiss have every right to believe that every revolution is wrong and that every person who wants to change the world with violence will inevitably become monster.

    We live in age when ideas and themes are wrong because they are offensive. But good art should be offensive and aks hard questions.

  191. Adrianacandle,

    Petra’s alternative version is not really good. Even if we ignore that climax of the story is on Iron Islands and no one cares about that place, just like with Stannis, every rewrite of Dany’s crime involes putting her in a situation where mass killing is almost justified.

    So it’s all about putting her in a position where people can continue to make excuses for her brutality like they did in the first 7 seasons. But the story refused to give any excuse. She doesn’t need to burn KL. Her violence is pointless and that’s the whole point of it.

  192. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

    I agree that it was always meant to be polarizing and to punch you in the face. But I don’t think that’s wrong.

    I find that creative choice to be very brave, powerful and meaningful. Especially now in the age of populism. The message is – notice the red flags around politicians you support because real life will smack you in the face.

  193. I think people waste too much time on the fact that KL surrendered. I don’t see why would Daenerys care about that, why would she even trust in their surrender after everything?

    And her war was much bigger than just taking KL. It was about ruling the entire world so destroying city to establish her dictatorship and supremacy is something conqueres do. And it’s also punishment. She was humiliated too many times by Cersei. Her enemies need to see what happens when you cross Daenerys Stormborn.

    Also I think her care for civilians is overrated. She wanted to burn cities and castles a lot of times in the past. I don’t see how you can do that without mass murder?

    If I have to compare her with someone from history it would probably be communists and Stalin. Very noble goals to help poor and oppressed working class but also using very brutal ways.

  194. Tiago,

    The other problem with her ending is how the other characters are bent to fit in Daenerys ending. It’s almost like they don’t have a life of their own. Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei are only there to make Daenerys goes wrong. We’re talking about characters we’ve followed for eight years, whose role is reduced to influence another character’ ending.

    I really like your way of putting that, and I agree, to a certain extent, with the “bent” feeling. Some of that comes from the structure Martin created, with the obvious existential threat of the Others/WW/Army of the Dead dispatched before the hidden and larger existential threat, Dany, even emerges from the false trappings of a hero in which he’d presented her. Once the undead are buried, the story simply must conclude relatively quickly, else the audience will wonder why they are still watching/reading.

    Martin also failed to provide Benioff and Weiss any actual story after the death of Jon Snow. They finally had to travel to his home and wrest from him an outline of the remaining story, and then figure out for themselves how to finish their version. If he’d produced another actual *book* (or two) after they’d produced Winter is Coming, they might have had enough material for the additional seasons HBO offered (or begged, more likely) them to have. The larger amount of story they had before dispatch of the undead could have allowed them to tell more story after it as well, by having more character’s stories, and longer arcs to conclude for existing characters, before reaching Dany’s Downfall.

    As for the rest of that “bent” feeling, well, take Jon Snow as an example. He joined the Night’s Watch to prove he was as good as a true-born Stark, and he succeeded in spades (ha!). He became the greatest Lord Commander the Night’s Watch ever had! He orchestrated the end of the threat the Night’s Watch existed merely to contain. Once he’d performed that godlike task, what else was there for him to do? Well, in the story, to end the other great threat to humanity. His arc actually was complete with Dany’s death, and as Tyrion pointed out, his killing her fit perfectly with his mission to guard the Realms of Men; thematically, his arc was complete. He feels “bent” only if you declare his arc was finished when the undead were buried, and that was not the case. Remember, Martin set the audience up all along to believe that ending the undead was Jon Snow’s main purpose in the story, so this “bent” feeling was to some degree intentional on Martin’s part.

  195. Tiago,

    ”It’s remarkable how a year and a month after the end of Game of Thrones, fans continue to debate the fate of Daenerys. It seems all the comment sections in this site always end there one way or another.”

    Has no one heard of the ancient Roman adage, “All Roads Lead to Arya”?

  196. mau,

    Why is wrong for the story to be cynical? To say tha ambition is wrong and that trying to break the wheel of injustice or the cycle of abuse is futile?

    I don’t think she’s saying it’s wrong, she’s questioning what meaning there is in ending Dany’s arc as a villain, how it feels deeply cynical, and explains why. I don’t think that’s entitled, I think that’s a fair question worthy of exploration.

    Maybe there is meaning in it… but it does feel cynical.

    You said, “GoT and Benioff and Weiss have every right to believe that every revolution is wrong and that every person who wants to change the world with violence will inevitably become monster.”

    Alright, it’s true Benioff and Weiss can believe what they want about revolutions and how to change the world, that it can’t be done with violence and this violence changing somebody into a monster. And in turn, I think people have a right to question these ideas, messages, and how they executed this with Daenerys.

    She also had this to say about Sandor and the Hound’s endings:

    I’m not saying every character has to end up as the best version of themselves. I see value in Jamie and Sander’s endings because they both demonstrate that redemption is ultimately a choice. The things that happen to you, the people you meet, they don’t redeem you. You redeem you. Sandor had the chance to turn away from his path of violence and revenge and live but instead, he chose to let his hatred of his brother destroy him.

    Jamie had the opportunity to stay with the person who brought out his best self but chose to return to his toxic sister.

    I don’t like their endings but they do have meaning. What meaning is there in turning Daenerys into a monster? That ambition is wrong? That wanting to help people is bad? That trying to break the wheel of injustice or indeed the cycle of abuse is futile? Moreover, Daenerys was a trauma survivor who took control of her own life, who rose from the ashes to carve a place for herself in a world that didn’t want her, and that meant a lot to a lot of people. Ending her story this way feels deeply deeply cynical.

    And I think that’s valid. You may not. (And I realize I also forgot to link the source of this essay here is the original post and thread).

    We live in age when ideas and themes are wrong because they are offensive. But good art should be offensive and aks hard questions.

    Okay, and people will still respond to these ideas: positively, negatively, critically, the whole gamut. When art is released into the public, it creates dialogue and it should. This is how ideas are discussed and explored. Often time, that involves criticism over the message a viewer/reader feels the work is sending and what problematic ideas they feel are arising from it. I think this deserves consideration as well.

    Petra’s alternative version is not really good. Even if we ignore that climax of the story is on Iron Islands and no one cares about that place, just like with Stannis, every rewrite of Dany’s crime involes putting her in a situation where mass killing is almost justified.

    So it’s all about putting her in a position where people can continue to make excuses for her brutality like they did in the first 7 seasons. But the story refused to give any excuse. She doesn’t need to burn KL. Her violence is pointless and that’s the whole point of it.

    Okay and that’s your view on Dany’s decision to burn KL, that her violence is pointless, and I’m glad this conclusion worked for you. You can take or leave Petra’s suggestion, that’s fine. Erik asked above, Something I wonder about is if people, who were displeased with ending, were asked to rewrite these final chapters of the story to their satisfaction but under condition that Dany’s downfall remains in the story. I’m very much sure a lot of people would struggle or they would just label this as “not a good story,” and I posted Petra’s suggestion in response.

    But from the video itself, I don’t think Petra is putting Dany into a position in which people can make excuses for her brutality — that’s not what Petra is about with Dany. She has found problems with Dany’s behavior and world views ever since Dany burned MMD in season 1:

    I stopped rooting for Daenerys back in season 1 when she killed Mirri Maz Duur because I was on Mirri’s side. I found Daenerys’s and, by extension, the fandom’s nonchalance at Drogo’s promise to rape Westerosi women disturbing and Dany’s horror at the rape of the Lazzarini women naive and her assumption that Mirri owed her loyalty for saving her from rape, absolutely infuriating.

    I thought Mirri’s speech in the season 1 finale did a great job at recontextualizing Daenerys as the villain of Mirri Maz Duur’s story and that recontextualizing Mirri Maz Duur as the heroine who killed her world’s baby. I actually planned to do a video essay before season 8 premiered about how Daenerys’s relationship with Mirri Maz Duur could have set up Daenerys as an eventual villain, which I didn’t think was ever actually going to happen because it demonstrated the rigidity of Daenerys’s worldview. She is right: if she wants to sack your village if she wants her son to take over the world — well, that’s her prerogative. If you oppose her if you resent her for killing your friends or you prevent her son from achieving world domination, then you’re wrong and subject to whatever punishment she sees fit. We see this rigid worldview put into effect throughout Daenerys’s campaign in Essos in which she imposes her worldview on other people by dismantling their bad cultures in order to fix them and considering the lives of those who oppose her forfeit. The show in the books both justify this by making the culture she dismantles and the men she kills cartoonishly evil (credit to the show for humanizing his doors of lorac) but it would not have been difficult to reframe this as a bad practice when Daenerys arrived in Westeros and thus reveal how problematic Daenerys’s moral justification for conquering has always been. But the show didn’t.

    So I don’t think it’s about putting Dany into a position where she can be excused again (even as it Dany’s destruction of KL was portrayed, it didn’t stop some stans from still excusing Dany by saying the people of King’s Landing deserved it or it was a blip). Rather, it seems to me that Petra is putting forth a proposed scenario that would make sense in continuing some of the behaviors she saw Daenerys exhibiting in the past (imposing a worldview on another culture from a rigid sense of moral superiority, punishing those who don’t/refuse to comply but this time, it would be oppressors and victims alike: “she can’t separate out the good victims from the bad oppressors like she used to”) .

    It seems to mean Petra doesn’t have an issue with Dany becoming the villain but with Daenerys’s motives in burning King’s Landing and how they lacked a consistency:

    We could have had 10 whole episodes between Missandei’s death and those ill-fated bells and it still wouldn’t have worked because there’s no coherent narrative through line connecting the Daenerys Targaryen of the first seven and a half seasons to the villain we got in the last two episodes.

    Let’s put this in terms of harmatia, a word I think I’m pronouncing correctly which, in dramatic literature, has come to refer to the protagonist’s fatal flaw, which leads to their downfall. Othello’s harmatia is jealousy, for instance. Hamlet’s is in action. Ned Stark’s is honor. So what is Daenerys’s harmatia?

    Episodes four and five lean heavily into the notion that it’s madness that Daenerys is succumbing to hereditary insanity but the final episode reframes the destruction of King’s Landing as merely an escalation from her practices in Essos. Some have argued that she didn’t actually go mad when she destroyed King’s Landing but rather acted out of grief anger and rejection, which might have worked except that in episode six, Daenerys reprises rhetoric from earlier seasons in such a way that makes her seem delusional. If the show had only settled on one fatal flaw for Daenerys and followed through on that to the end, things might have panned out differently.

    I can’t really imagine a scenario in which I would be okay with Daenerys becoming a villain by succumbing to madness as I am sick of stories using mental illness as a shorthand for evil. However, I thought Targaryen madness was dealt with in a really interesting way in season one, where it’s established that King Aerys was mentally ill.

    [Topic about the portrayal of mental illness and madness in GOT/ASOIAF]

    The other fatal flaw the show optioned for Daenerys — her sense of moral superiority and her consequential sense of entitlement had a lot more potential and not coincidentally, was the reason I could never join the Dany bandwagon, much as I wanted to.

    You can take this or leave this, you can disagree. I think these are valid points.

  197. Ten Bears,

    —-
    Part 2 of 2 [Cont. from 10:28 pm]
    Musical Interlude

    Arya Stark Tribute

    👸🏻🎼”Sunny came home with a list of names.
    She didn’t believe in transcendence.
    It’s time for a few small repairs she said. 🔪
    Sunny came home, with a vengeance.
    🎶

    Shawn Colvin, “Sunny Came Home” (1997)
    music video at 1:25 – 1:47

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfKKBDFCiIA

    ————————
    Shawn Colvin (live on The Late Show, 1997)
    at 1:44 – 2:04

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsWCjCX2vdA

    👸🏻🏰

  198. Ten Bears: Part 2 of 2 [Cont. from 10:28 pm]
    Musical Interlude
    Arya Stark Tribute

    👸🏻🎼”Sunny came home with a list of names.
    She didn’t believe in transcendence.
    It’s time for a few small repairs she said. 🔪
    Sunny came home, with a vengeance.🎶

    Shawn Colvin, “Sunny Came Home” (1997)
    music video at 1:25 – 1:47

    Wow! Nice job with this one and with making this connection to Arya! I remember this song from eons ago, it takes me back to my childhood, but I never made the linked this song to Arya until now!

  199. Adrianacandle,

    Corrections to errors in my transcriptions above (there may be other errors too but these are errors on my part in transcribing Petra’s comments):

    *“[…]I thought Mirri’s speech in the season 1 finale did a great job at recontextualizing Daenerys as the villain of Mirri Maz Duur’s story and that recontextualizing Mirri Maz Duur as the heroine who killed her world’s baby *Hitler[…]”

    *“Yarra” to “Yara”

    *“Danny” to “Dany”

    *“harmatia” to “hamartia”

    *“[…]Episodes four and five lean heavily into the notion that it’s madness, that Daenerys is succumbing to hereditary insanity, but the final episode reframes the destruction of King’s Landing as merely an escalation from her practices in Essos.[…]”

  200. Adrianacandle: Wow! Nice job with this one and with making this connection to Arya! I remember this song from eons ago, it takes me back to my childhood, but I never linked this song to Arya until now!

    Thanks! I was in the process of finishing up the “Sansa Dedication” and looking for the best audio and live versions of the song for that one, when the YouTube recommendations included Shawn Colvin’s song.

    As soon as that jogged my memory and I remembered the verse “Sunny came home with a list of names,” I couldn’t resist. 😋

    There are not many revenge ballads that win Grammy Awards for Song of the Year and Record of the Year.

    P.S. Upcoming Musical Interludes:
    – Sansa Dedication with Disclaimer
    – Sansa & LF S4e8 scene “soundtrack”
    (Sansa: “I know what you want”)
    – Sandor Clegane Tribute

  201. Ten Bears: As soon as that jogged my memory and I remembered the verse “Sunny came home with a list of names,” I couldn’t resist. 😋

    There are not many revenge ballads that win Grammy Awards for Song of the Year and Record of the Year.

    Definitely! And I liked this line in application to Arya: “It’s time for a few small repairs she said.” I think that works with the various motives for Arya’s list 🙂

  202. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

    I don’t think that they toned Daenerys down that much. What they did was that they gave the solutions to the men in her environment, while in the books it’s Dany that gives the solutions. And then -show wise- she has the bursts of “burn them all” to which the men around her must remind her that using dragons is generally not a very good idea. This choise was dictated by the fact that they needed to give more lines to the other actors. If the dialogs from the books are tampered, stripped down to their own essentials, her followers would have to have some of them for their screen time. In the books it’s different, as Dany listens to them and then decides, but the plans are all hers. How to move forward, what to do, how to take a city. She’s a clear-cut leader, not a little girl to be schooled.
    That said, a few more things from the books could be included in the show, i.e. the crucifiction of the masters, or the handling of the Astapori refugees. But I’m still not sure that it would have helped, because it was meant to be that trap for the viewers/readers. It was designed to deceive people from the point of the conception of the idea. Deceiving the readers/audience was part of the plan, and it was a successs in that respect.
    I suppose though that for the producers it took a life of its own; the fans were mesmerized by Daenerys, they cried “justice” with every enemy she removed and ignored all the rest. They expected to see the dragons triumph as if they were the RAF in WW II. Well, what about those below where the RAF is bombing? Enemies, right? What if they’re Lannisters though? What if it’s Jamie? What if it’s Bronn? What if it was that singer in 7.2? It was really disturbing to listen to Daenerys’ fans boasting about her accomplishment at the Blackwater Rush battle. It was seriously disturbing to applaude as she demanded the subjection of the kingdom whose leader and heir her own father cooked alive, believing that a brief “romance” would change everything.
    At this point I don’t think that showing anything else would have changed the attitude of the viewers after the show ending. But I do think that what was lacking in season 8 was, in the end, a serious opposition to Daenerys’ plans -because, let’s face it, Varys wasn’t enough and Cersei was drinking wine. Give her a real motive to bomb a surrendered city, because otherwise it seemed like it was her genes that made a difference.

  203. Adrianacandle:
    Adrianacandle,

    (Another correction to my transcriptions above):

    * “his doors of Iorac” should be “Hizdahr zo loraq” XD;;;

    I’ll have you know his doors of Iorac was the name of my Toad the Wet Sprocket cover band.

  204. Efi,

    That said, a few more things from the books could be included in the show, i.e. the crucifiction of the masters, or the handling of the Astapori refugees. But I’m still not sure that it would have helped, because it was meant to be that trap for the viewers/readers. It was designed to deceive people from the point of the conception of the idea. Deceiving the readers/audience was part of the plan, and it was a successs in that respect.

    The crucifixion of the masters was included in the show and it was something I did not wholly agree with since it was deciding the deaths based on class and title rather than executing people for crimes Dany was sure they committed. The show did question Dany’s actions here when Hizdahr came to Dany and said that his father, one of the men she crucified, spoke against the masters crucifying the slave children. This isn’t enough to make Dany question her crucifixion of the masters, but she is moved enough by Hizdahr’s pleas to bury his father properly despite her earlier refusal based on the masters letting the slave children rot in the sun.

    However, in the books, Dany does have an uneasy reflection over crucifying the masters in the books the morning after, whereupon the site makes her sick and she doesn’t feel like an avenging dragon anymore and she must convince herself it was right but she doesn’t sound very certain.

    She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood…

    Dany put the glass aside, frowning. It was just. It was. I did it for the children.

    As for the handling of the Astapori refugees in the books, what do you mean? Dany wasn’t being cruel there. She was helping the refugees, she wanted to let them into the city but she was advised against it because they carried the bloody flux, which would infect Meereen as well. However, she refused to stop helping or feeding them and when Yunkai was marching toward Meereen, it was greatly upsetting for her to have to close the gates to protect Meereen. She still couldn’t let the Astapori in because if she did, the Meereenese would become infected.

    I suppose though that for the producers it took a life of its own; the fans were mesmerized by Daenerys, they cried “justice” with every enemy she removed and ignored all the rest. They expected to see the dragons triumph as if they were the RAF in WW II. Well, what about those below where the RAF is bombing? Enemies, right? What if they’re Lannisters though? What if it’s Jamie? What if it’s Bronn? What if it was that singer in 7.2? It was really disturbing to listen to Daenerys’ fans boasting about her accomplishment at the Blackwater Rush battle. It was seriously disturbing to applaude as she demanded the subjection of the kingdom whose leader and heir her own father cooked alive, believing that a brief “romance” would change everything.

    I, for one, didn’t expect Dany to be triumphant. And to be honest, I didn’t love the dragons or feel much affection for them. But is the difference here that Dany was using dragonfire in battle (as she did against the Lannisters in 7×05) rather than limiting her arsenal to swords and other weapons? The Lannister soldiers who were defeated by Robb’s forces and the Bolton soldiers Jon was impaling on the battlefield didn’t seem to die gently or kindly either.

    The show made an effort to humanize the Lannister forces in Dany’s case by providing scenes of Arya coming across a group of gathered Lannister soldiers, in which Ed Sheeren talks about his character’s daughter and that he may not be able to return home to see her, as well as the scenes with Jaime, Bronn, Randyll and Dickon. Yet, are the Bolton forces who opposed Jon and Sansa, the Lannister forces who opposed Robb, are they less human? Don’t they have families too who they’d like to return to? The Bolton forces were fighting for Ramsay, a sadistic figure — but I wouldn’t say Cersei is much better either.

    Yes, Dany came to conquer the 7K. Stannis likewise wanted all 7K. It’s true that nobody needs a throne, Dany certainly felt the throne belonged to her, and I did find her to be lacking some self-awareness in that 7×03 scene — but she’s not who burned Rickard and Brandon alive so I’m not sure why she should make concessions for the North for that reason (but, by that turn, it shouldn’t be her expectation that Jon hold true to an oath made by his ancestor over which faith was broken by Aerys). Would it make a difference if Aerys was not Dany’s father? If she belonged to a different family but still wanted to conquer the 7K for her own?

    In regard to the idea that conquerors (or contenders for the throne) take their relatives’ crimes into account (ie. exempting the North from being one of the kingdoms she intends to rule from the Iron Throne because of her father’s crimes) when planning to take a crown or even keep a crown, I think there are two sides to this idea: unnecessarily brutal crimes were also committed against Dany’s family as well when her family was overthrown by the Lannisters/Baratheons/Starks. While we know Ned did not approve of this violence against Rhaegar’s family whatsoever and that Aerys was justifiably killed/overthrown, the crimes against Rhaegar’s family (Elia being brutally raped and murdered by her children were slaughtered) were committed under the orders of Tywin Lannister and were approved of by Ned’s best friend Robert Baratheon who Ned supported (but not in this). Robert also went on to hunt Dany and Viserys for Dany’s entire life (until mid-season 1). Would the Lannisters (under Cersei) and Gendry be expected to make concessions for Dany on this basis? Is it fair to blame Ned for Robert’s approval and attempts to eradicate all Targaryens, even the children?

    Admittedly, I did find it kind of odd that Dany was willing to accept the Iron Islands’ independence when it was requested by Yara (though under conditions) but she didn’t seem willing to consider Sansa’s own want for independence after the wars were finished. I wouldn’t say this was an impossible transition but it would have been nice to see what changed Dany’s mind between 6×09 and 8×02.

  205. Ten Bears: I’ll have you know his doors of Iorac was the name of my Toad the Wet Sprocket cover band.

    His doors of Iorac is a real thing? It wasn’t the transcription feature in Google docs making stuff up? (I was certain Google was just hearing the audio phonetically).

  206. Ten Bears: I’ll have you know his doors of Iorac was the name of my Toad the Wet Sprocket cover band.

    Oh god, I just reread your post — I’m a dumbass 🤣(Ignore my first response to this!) Also: LOL!

    Between this and my horrible typo above, I’m really doing well with reading and writing today 😉 Going to be a good day T___T

  207. Adrianacandle,

    I’m not saying she doesn’t have right to complain. I’m saying it almost feels like she is denying autonomy to the writers. If they want cynical story that’s what the story is. Show belongs to Benioff and Weiss and they can do whatever they want.

    And when it comes to execution it all comes to this false idea that Daenerys really cares about other people. She is like Stalin. She cares about oppressed. In an abstract way. But what she really cares about is absolute power. She wanted to burn cities and castles too many times for us to really believe that she cares what happens with common people.

  208. mau,

    I’m not saying she doesn’t have right to complain. I’m saying it almost feels like she is denying autonomy to the writers. If they want cynical story that’s what the story is. Show belongs to Benioff and Weiss and they can do whatever they want.

    I don’t think Petra is doing that. She’s pointing out problems she found with the plotting (and while I agree with many of them, there are some points I don’t entirely agree with) and offering suggestions — I don’t think that’s denying writer autonomy. Rather, I think that’s offering a constructive form of criticism, pointing out where she found weak spots in the writing, problems with the messaging, and offering suggestions for how she thought these problems could be improved.

    When I studied visual arts for seven years, this happened throughout. Sometimes, it was hard to hear and there were many times I had to start from scratch — but it was helpful. It’s how we got better and it’s how we learned to respond to criticism. Sometimes, the suggestions were not always taken but they were considered. It wasn’t blind hate. Petra isn’t getting personal with D&D, she’s not blindly hating. She’s pointing out specific issues she had, explaining them in the context of the show and in other forms of literature, and offers suggestions. She also points out what she did find meaningful.

    While Benioff and Weiss can do whatever they want, viewers — including Petra — can respond in what ways they want. And I appreciate Petra’s response because it was considered and I thought it was constructive.

    And when it comes to execution it all comes to this false idea that Daenerys really cares about other people. She is like Stalin. She cares about oppressed. In an abstract way. But what she really cares about is absolute power. She wanted to burn cities and castles too many times for us to really believe that she cares what happens with common people.

    Well, I’d dispute this idea is false and that this is people’s only complaint with the execution of this storyline. Yet, as I said above, I don’t want to get into another discussion over whether or not Dany’s actions in KL were built up or not. Maybe that’s a battle I’ll pick later but not at this time.

  209. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    That’s probably not intention but Petra’s comments does sound entitled. Why is wrong for the story to be cynical? To say tha ambition is wrong and that trying to break the wheel of injustice or the cycle of abuse is futile?

    Because it makes her feel bad? I don’t get that. GoT and Benioff and Weiss have every right to believe that every revolution is wrong and that every person who wants to change the world with violence will inevitably become monster.

    We live in age when ideas and themes are wrong because they are offensive. But good art should be offensive and aks hard questions.

    👏👏👏👏👏👍👍✌️ Thank you for that!

  210. Adrianacandle,

    But that’s the problem. There is only lack of consistency in what she thinks Daenerys is.

    The story is not even that complicated. You have character that wants to commit mass murder for 7 seasons and she never did it because people around her had to stop her and at the end there is no one around her and she does it.

    Her reading of the story is wrong. You don’t get to lecture writers what they can and can’t do in their stories. They can use madness if they want and I don’t think they should card if someone finds that offensive. Good. Be offended.

    They can write her decision to be emotional and not cold-hearted.

    And I fundamentally disagree with the idea that ideas can be problematic. Ideas can’t be problematic. That’s road to censorship.

    If you want to discuss execution then discuss it, but you can’t criticize the idea of madness or emotional reasoning because writers have absolute autonomy to decide that. If they want emotional decision it will be that. Everything else is fan entitlement and I can’t agree with that.

    Debate execution. But ideas can’t be debated. There are no wrong ideas.

  211. Adrianacandle,

    Yes she is doing that when she says that using madness is wrong. That has nothing to do with plotting. She is attacking the idea of madness.

    Also she is completely in denial over Daenerys. We are talking about character that had to be stopped many times from burning things and she says there is nothing in the first 70 episodes that suggested that? That even 10 more episodes after Missandei’s death wouldt be enough.

    Sorry but that’s ridiculous.

  212. mau,

    Her reading of the story is wrong. You don’t get to lecture writers what they can and can’t do in their stories. They can use madness if they want and I don’t think they should card if someone finds that offensive. Good. Be offended.

    So if we don’t like a story or have a problem with its messaging, what should we do?

    Ideas can’t be problematic. That’s road to censorship.

    Wikipedia defines censorship as, “the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or ‘inconvenient.'”

    Encyclopedia Britannica defines censorship as “the changing or the suppression or prohibition of speech or writing that is deemed subversive of the common good. It occurs in all manifestations of authority to some degree, but in modern times it has been of special importance in its relation to government and the rule of law.”

    I’m not sure how feeling some ideas are problematic is a road to censorship? Ideas themselves can definitely be problematic and they can be discussed/criticized/agreed with/disagreed with/explored, etc. but I’d say it’s the forbidding of these ideas from being expressed, presented, explored, discussed, criticized, etc. that is censorship.

    If you want to discuss execution then discuss it, but you can’t criticize the idea of madness or emotional reasoning because writers have absolute autonomy to decide that. If they want emotional decision it will be that. Everything else is fan entitlement and I can’t agree with that.
    Debate execution. But ideas can’t be debated. There are no wrong ideas.

    This was a discussion of execution…. And criticism is often part of that. Sure, the writers can do whatever we want and we can discuss these writers’ choices. If these ideas can’t be debated, how can we discuss them or the execution of a plot? Are we to be limited to discussing technical details?

    I think the idea of forbidding us from criticizing certain ideas (or debating ideas) on the basis that writers have absolute autonomy and can do whatever we want so it’s not our place to debate the ideas behind it… that does sounds a bit like censorship (unless I’m misunderstanding you!)

    Yes she is doing that when she says that using madness is wrong. That has nothing to do with plotting. She is attacking the idea of madness.

    But even if Petra was attacking the idea of madness, I don’t think that’s wrong. It’s a response. However, I think she was more focused on how it was portrayed. Because I can’t argue Petra’s POV for her, I can include what she says about the portrayal of madness in GoT:

    But in a world that didn’t understand mental illness, the topic of madness is difficult to address because insanity is no longer a medical diagnosis in our world but still functions as an informal umbrella term for a range of disorders none of which are moral failures to have but, of course, society hasn’t always understood this so many monarchs whom historians now theorize may have suffered from bipolar disorder and schizophrenia or mercury poisoning were mythologized into monsters in their time.

    Elizabeth Báthory, who likely suffered from a neurological disorder, is largely considered the historical inspiration for the idea that vampires need blood for sustenance. Caligula, who likely had schizophrenia, was depicted as the first vampire in Dracula Untold.

    This is what I thought Game of Thrones was getting at with Aerys: that people with a limited understanding of the world around them, who see PTSD as cowardice, who vilify young women for outliving their old sick husbands, and remember warrior queens as witches would surely view a man living with untreated schizophrenia or psychosis as just plain evil this was a poignant and insightful approach to Martin’s admittedly vague concept of Targaryen madness, which the show then completely dropped when it came to Daenerys.

    [7×04 scene of Tyrion and Dany on the beach — Tyrion: “If I’ve underestimated our enemies–” Dany: “Enemies? Your family, you mean!”] Ah yes the early signs. No, this is called anger. It is a perfectly healthy emotion to feel when one’s allies fuck up. Other characters have experienced it — it’s almost like those guys had something Daenerys didn’t that made their anger seem rational. Anyway, this conflation of anger and madness feels like a semantic mix-up. Anger has nothing to do with mental illness and as it is, it’s not even that dominant of a trait in Daenerys.

    [Tyrion to Dany: “And you’ve been known to lose your temper from time to time.”]

    No, she hasn’t. She’s been known to make controversial decisions. That
    was a decision, that was a decision, that was a decision. They weren’t always good decisions and I’ll get to that in a second but to cite these as examples of encroaching mental illness fairly, we’d have to make the same argument for every other character who ever did a mean thing.

    My point is that Game of Thrones never had a handle on what Targaryen madness was: mental illness, anger, pyromania, so it’s kind of hard to make that a character’s hamartia. The other fatal flaw the show optioned for Daenerys — her sense of moral superiority and her consequential sense of entitlement had a lot more potential and not coincidentally, was the reason I could never join the Danny bandwagon, much as I wanted to.

    You can agree or disagree but I don’t think it’s wrong to explore or question the show’s portrayal of madness either.

  213. mau,

    Also she is completely in denial over Daenerys. We are talking about character that had to be stopped many times from burning things and she says there is nothing in the first 70 episodes that suggested that? That even 10 more episodes after Missandei’s death wouldt be enough.

    No, she didn’t say that. She disagreed with the motives presented for Dany’s decision to burn KL and felt they were inconsistent. She offers what she thinks could have been Dany’s fatal flaw. If you read the transcription or go to the essay itself, you’ll see that Petra had issues with Dany since she killed MMD and thought this introduced the idea of Dany being an eventual villain.

    Her reasoning for thinking that even 10 episodes between Missandei’s death and the burning of KL wouldn’t be enough wasn’t about it being impossible for Dany to be the villain. It was about feeling there was no consistent motivation connecting her from her previous behaviors to her motives for burning down King’s Landing:

    We could have had 10 whole episodes between Missandei’s death and those ill-fated bells and it still wouldn’t have worked because there’s no coherent narrative through line connecting the Daenerys Targaryen of the first seven and a half seasons to the villain we got in the last two episodes.

    Let’s put this in terms of harmatia, a word I think I’m pronouncing correctly which, in dramatic literature, has come to refer to the protagonist’s fatal flaw, which leads to their downfall. Othello’s harmatia is jealousy, for instance. Hamlet’s is in action. Ned Stark’s is honor. So what is Daenerys’s harmatia?

    Daenerys is succumbing to hereditary insanity but the final episode reframes the destruction of King’s Landing as merely an escalation from her practices in Essos. Some have argued that she didn’t actually go mad when she destroyed King’s Landing but rather acted out of grief anger and rejection, which might have worked except that in episode six, Daenerys reprises rhetoric from earlier seasons in such a way that makes her seem delusional. If the show had only settled on one fatal flaw for Daenerys and followed through on that to the end, things might have panned out differently.

    My point is that Game of Thrones never had a handle on what Targaryen madness was: mental illness, anger, pyromania, so it’s kind of hard to make that a character’s harmatia. The other fatal flaw the show optioned for Daenerys — her sense of moral superiority and her consequential sense of entitlement had a lot more potential and not coincidentally, was the reason I could never join the Danny bandwagon, much as I wanted to.

    Again, you are free to disagree with this but I don’t think it was a case of denial.

  214. Sometimes I feel like crazy person because I would burn KL for less than what Dany had to endure lol.

    How much shit a person had to take before she can snap? I don’t know. Maybe I am a sociopath, but these people sound like monks with their endless tolerance.

    She is already brutal, she already had burning cities and destroying shit in mind for a veeery long time and she lost everyone and everything. People thought that Cersei would destroy KL once she looses everything and never had any problem with it. Why? Because she is villain?

    I mean Dany even before KL destruction killed far more people than Cersei ever did and in a more brutal way. Before Sept explosion Cersei only killed her abusive husband and yet no one said that Sept explosion makes no sense and that Cersei would never do something like that.

    It’s all about perspective and framing. The story plays with that. Daenerys is hero and Cersei is villain and that’s why no one cared when Cersei killed so many people “out of nowhere”.

  215. Adrianacandle,

    Ofc I’m going to disagree because what she is saying makes no sense. Danerys’ fatal flaw was her messianic complex and that’s why she could make excuses for every move she made.

    I mean we literally had

    606 – Dany to her army – let’s go and kill my enemies destroy their houses

    805 – They do that

    806 – Speech that is copy paste from 606 where she thanks them

    Some fans: Out of nowhere. No motivation. I don’t see anything here.

  216. mau,

    Or too explain this better. I believe there is a limitation in which audience can attack the story. In a age of petitions and angry twitter mobs autonomy of writers is in danger and everything will turn into MCU where no one will take any risks with the story.

    We saw that with The Last Jedi or right now with The Last of Us 2.

    Enough is enough. Angry mob will destroy art.

    Or to make it very simple. You can debtae the ways in which Dany becomes mad or extremely angry but I don’t think debating the idea and turning idea into something wrong and forbidden is acceptable.

  217. Also I think that writers who try to do something different even if they fail should be praised and not harassed and cancelled. We saw how mob works. We see that now with Last of Us creator. Final goal – destruction of personal and professional life and making sure that they never work again.

    That is what you get when you try to do something original and brave. And yeah GoT had flaws I’m not blind but just the ambition of Dany’s downfall is greater than any of that.

    Writing something different and unconventional is much harder and it’s much easier to fail and do something wrong.

  218. mau,

    “So if we don’t like a story or have a problem with its messaging, what should we do?”

    Write your own story.

    Okay, so:

    We can…

    Discuss some aspects execution (ie. the ways in which Dany becomes mad or extremely angry)
    Write our own story if we don’t like a story or have problems with its messaging (what if we like some aspects of a story and not others?)

    We can’t…

    Debate ideas
    Criticize ideas
    Think some ideas are problematic
    Can’t criticize the idea of madness or emotional reasoning because writers have absolute autonomy to decide that

    (If I’ve misunderstood you on any of the above, please correct me)

    I’m sorry, mau. I don’t think I can abide by this — for Game of Thrones or any other media. If that makes me an entitled fan who takes away writer autonomy, I accept that.

    Or to make it very simple. You can debtae the ways in which Dany becomes mad or extremely angry but I don’t think debating the idea and turning idea into something wrong and forbidden is acceptable.

    I think we are debating the ideas in which Dany becomes mass. However, you feel Petra’s ideas to this end don’t make sense. Okay. That’s your right. But she offers ways in which Dany can be led to her downfall and what can ignite her.

    And I still think people can disagree with ideas or their portrayal — but who is saying they are forbidden?

    Or too explain this better. I believe there is a limitation in which audience can attack the story. In a age of petitions and angry twitter mobs autonomy of writers is in danger and everything will turn into MCU where no one will take any risks with the story.

    I think that’s very different from questioning/debating ideas and feeling some messaging is problematic or offering suggestions on improvement. Nobody (here) is getting personal or gathering their pitchforks and torches to go after D&D. We are examining their work and that’s where the criticism is levied at. Not at D&D as people or demanding they rewrite the show due to viewer displeasure. I think we can question their ideas, what messages we feel we’re getting from some concepts/plots, and some of their choices.

    Even here, I’m not saying what D&D have stated and their intentions are not canon. I certainly consider D&D the ultimate authority on their work and consider what they have to say about the show as canon. However, I think I can still debate/question/examine their choices and the ideas behind some of the plots.

  219. mau: Angry mob will destroy art.

    I think the problems with new Star Wars trilogy was entirely the fault of the writers.
    They caved into PC Culture.

    Specifically, the character of Rey. Everything comes so easy to her. She never goes through any difficulties, there’s no real training that shows any progression of her character like we had with Luke in the original trilogy. She’s basically a boss with cheat codes because “the Force is Female” now according to the writers and everything has to be given to her with the greatest of ease. The entire thing is vomit inducing.

    I’m sure some of the nerd rage it caused went too far. There’s always somebody that has to take it too far, but those Star Wars films deserved every bit of criticism they got, IMO.

  220. Adrianacandle,

    I agree with you.

    Art is meant to not only be consumed, but it’s also there to be evaluated, analyzed, debated, and discussed. It’s not there to tell us what to think or how to feel. It’s simply there to suggest, and it’s up to us to do what we want with it.

    Stifling debate over an artistic choice is much more dangerous for society than having an open dialogue. Obviously, lines must be drawn and people should be able to state their opinions without getting personal. It should be kept respectful on both sides. I recall some of the writers for Star Wars were openly antagonistic to their own fans. Like that “force is female” comment. When that drew criticism with comments like “the force is genderless” the writers just accused those people of being misogynists without really thinking about the message being conveyed. It’s become an openly antagonistic experience for both the writers and fans.

    We can debate the ending and Dany’s downfall in perpetuity. Obviously, I didn’t care for the way Dany’s downfall went, but that’s not even my biggest issue with the ending.

    My biggest issue is that I’m honestly not sure what the writers are trying to say. Are they trying to say that the pursuit of power is too corrupt, so no one should even try? Power corrupts, so therefore the only solution for humanity is to have an omniscient Superman as king like Bran, which is completely unrealistic? I just…I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with that. IMO, it’s a deeply cynical ending without any real reason for optimism.

  221. Hey…it has been minute.

    What was I saying last time?

    Okey, Dokey…….Can we all agree that the writing for GOT Season 8 was poor, particularly 8.4, 8.5, 8.6? (Ok, 8.2 was good! and if you could see it, 8.3 looked like a lot of work!) If we can agree that, then maybe we would have made some productive use of 2020 to date? Yeah, I can feel a consensus forming. Really bad? Yeah? I see heads nodding.

    Good, I will be back soon. Other things to sort…

    Chili, are you OK?

    Ok peeps, Carry on!

  222. Mr Derp,

    Art is meant to not only be consumed, but it’s also there to be evaluated, analyzed, debated, and discussed. It’s not there to tell us what to think or how to feel. It’s simply there to suggest, and it’s up to us to do what we want with it.

    Yes and often, art is a comment on something: what’s going on around us, concepts, ideas, personal issues, social issues, political issues, spirituality, feelings, lifestyle, what is art itself, etc. (I know I’m missing a whole bunch)… and comments are replied to in some form. And those comments are replied to. And these ideas are discussed/debated/explored/even experimented with. And in this way, sometimes entire movements are formed and with it, progression (hopefully).

    Stifling debate over an artistic choice is much more dangerous for society than having an open dialogue. Obviously, lines must be drawn and people should be able to state their opinions without getting personal. It should be kept respectful on both sides.

    Exactly. And while there are times things go too far (there’s a debate raging on about cancel culture right now and how it can get pretty extreme and angry mob-ish), if we keep it about the work and debate respectfully without attacking anyone with accusations, assumptions, personal judgements, or mob-mentality, I think debate is good, as is respectful disagreement. And I think it’s important.

    We can debate the ending and Dany’s downfall in perpetuity. Obviously, I didn’t care for the way Dany’s downfall went, but that’s not even my biggest issue with the ending.
    My biggest issue is that I’m honestly not sure what the writers are trying to say. Are they trying to say that the pursuit of power is too corrupt, so no one should even try? Power corrupts, so therefore the only solution for humanity is to have an omniscient Superman as king like Bran, which is completely unrealistic? I just…I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with that. IMO, it’s a deeply cynical ending without any real reason for optimism.

    I agree. Alt Shift X, who I felt was fair to season 8 for the most part, said this, which also echoes my own sentiments.

    This whole story was about ambitious noble families fighting and scheming for power.

    But now, in one scene, all the great houses agree to give up their power to a weird psychic kid cause ‘he has a good story’. Maybe everyone’s just too tired and confused to argue right now. But Sansa set a precedent for kingdoms to secede, so there could be rebellions in the future.

    This brave new realm is delicate and uncertain, but there is hope. King Bran represents a different kind of ruler. Past kings have been bad because they’ve been proud or cruel or power-hungry. Bran doesn’t care about power. He has no pride or cruelty. He barely has a personality — so in theory, he’ll be fair and unbiased.

    He’ll be a good ruler because he’s inhuman — which is a very depressing message.

    Game of Thrones was always about the struggle between human good and human evil within each person. Bran being king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human.

    And with the failure of Jaime and Daenerys, this whole season feels deeply cynical about the very possibility of human good.

  223. Adrianacandle: This whole story was about ambitious noble families fighting and scheming for power.

    But now, in one scene, all the great houses agree to give up their power to a weird psychic kid cause ‘he has a good story’. Maybe everyone’s just too tired and confused to argue right now. But Sansa set a precedent for kingdoms to secede, so there could be rebellions in the future.

    Yes, and the kid who has a “good story” is one that pretty much every kingdom would find hard to believe, especially because they don’t know what a 3 Eyed Raven is or why it’s important. Since the WW story ended in the North, the rest of the kingdoms still believe it’s a bunch of b.s., right? If the story was consistent, then the leaders of the individual kingdoms would find Tyrion and Bran’s story laughable at best. Especially since Tyrion is also on trial for treason.

    Adrianacandle: He’ll be a good ruler because he’s inhuman — which is a very depressing message.

    That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’m not sure what to do with the message being conveyed other than to weep for our future. Or hope that Superman will emerge as contender for the U.S. Presidency this Fall. Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t expecting some type of Earth-shattering revelation. I was just hoping for something a little more substantial than “power corrupts unles you’re a Three-Eyed Raven”.

  224. Mr Derp,

    Yes, and the kid who has a “good story” is one that pretty much every kingdom would find hard to believe, especially because they don’t know what a 3 Eyed Raven is or why it’s important. Since the WW story ended in the North, the rest of the kingdoms still believe it’s a bunch of b.s., right? If the story was consistent, then the leaders of the individual kingdoms would find Tyrion and Bran’s story laughable at best. Especially since Tyrion is also on trial for treason.

    Yep and I don’t know how credible it is to choose a new king on the basis of how interesting his life story has been. And yes, why would they believe it? As you said, the WW didn’t make it past Winterfell and were defeated in a single night. A handful of southerners fought (like Jaime and Brienne) but not a single southern army showed up so it’s not like a bunch of Crownslanders can verify the undead’s existence. It remains another crazy Northern story, a myth, a legend that might have once happened and serves as the source for many scary children’s stories.

    That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’m not sure what to do with the message being conveyed other than to weep for our future. Or hope that Superman will emerge as contender for the U.S. Presidency this Fall. Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t expecting some type of Earth-shattering revelation. I was just hoping for something a little more substantial than “power corrupts unles you’re a Three-Eyed Raven”.

    Yes. And while I do think Bran will be king in the books, I can only hope that it’s set up better and it doesn’t have quite this same message — that we’re too corrupt to rule ourselves and that our best chance is somebody with supernatural powers.

    In this way, it feels a bit like a medieval dystopian message.

  225. Adrianacandle: In this way, it feels a bit like a medieval dystopian message.

    That’s a good way of putting it.

    Also, I understand that the move away from a Hereditary Monarchy is considered a good thing, but there’s no clear succession plan for Westeros anymore. Once Bran dies, if he dies at all, it’ll be up to the Patricians to choose a new king. That could get messy very quickly. Whose to stop any one particular family from a violent coupe? Then Westeros is right back to where it started. The show began with families fighting and squabbling for power. Once Bran dies, there’s no reason why this would change. Besides, what if Bran was lying the whole time? Not that I think he was, but no one in all of Westeros or Essos could stop him if he was lying and he’d be a bigger problem for Westeros than Dany ever was.

    IMO, the lack of a clear plan creates a power vacuum and nature abhors a vacuum. It’s going to be chaos once Bran dies.

  226. Mr Derp,

    Also, I understand that the move away from a Hereditary Monarchy is considered a good thing, but there’s no clear succession plan for Westeros anymore. Once Bran dies, if he dies at all, it’ll be up to the Patricians to choose a new king. That could get messy very quickly. Whose to stop any one particular family from a violent coupe? Then Westeros is right back to where it started. The show began with families fighting and squabbling for power. Once Bran dies, there’s no reason why this would change. Besides, what if Bran was lying the whole time? Not that I think he was, but no one in all of Westeros or Essos could stop him if he was lying.
    IMO, the lack of a clear plan creates a power vacuum and nature abhors a vacuum. It’s going to be chaos once Bran dies.

    I had wondered that if Bran dies, another Three-Eyed Raven is selected — in the way Bloodraven trained and selected Bran and transferred all his powers to Bran upon his death (is that right?). Then that Three-Eyed Raven becomes king.

    But then it’s not really an election in which anyone (from a small, limited, select group) can run. It must be a Three-Eyed Raven for the purposes of Three-Eyed Raven powers.

    And yes, these problems weren’t really addressed — it’s not an unlikely chance a house could feel marginalized or unhappy with a decision made by the council/Bran. I suppose the prospect of war could stop them from acting out but maybe they get to the point where they decide war is worth it? Or somebody from that house may try to assassinate Bran, which may very well start another war and they need to decide a new monarch again.

    Or can Bran foresee these problems and prevent them in advance? But then again, that may churn up more hostility…

    I know the road from a hereditary monarchy to democracy is messy, bumpy, long, and hard but I’m hoping there will be some sort of plan or preparation for such situations in the books. It doesn’t have to be perfect, I don’t think there is a perfect plan for this, but if it just involved some addressing and preparation for these issues you’ve brought up.

  227. mau,

    ”…606 – Dany to her army – let’s go and kill my enemies destroy their houses

    805 – They do that

    806 – Speech that is copy paste from 606 where she thanks them

    Some fans: Out of nowhere. No motivation. I don’t see anything here.”

    While we’re at it, let’s not forget:

    609: Dany’s plan (until Tyrion talks her out of it): Exterminate all of the Masters’ soldiers and return all of their cities to the dirt (with all of their civilians)

    705: Dany to Lannister POWs: Kneel or fry! (i.e., join my army or … Dracarys!🔥)
    [I mean, saying she wasn’t there to put people in chains was a lame excuse. Executing surrendered soldiers has still got to be a war crime, even if you give them the “option” of becoming turncloaks and fighting against their own comrades.)

    50? or 60? [Not sure if this qualifies, though I did find it shocking]: Feeds an arbitrarily selected Mereenese nobleman to dragons for a snack.

    Burn them all!” was kind of her default setting. That’s a problem when you give a nuke to someone with impulse control “issues.”*
    Just like cops with tasers and abusive spouses with handguns, there’s always a temptation to use your cool toy, particularly in a fit of rage.

    * Nice job Tyrion. You told the Mother of Madness you joined Team Dany because Dany
    had advisors who could “rein in her worst impulses.” How did that work out for you? 🤔

  228. Adrianacandle,

    ”…Or somebody from that house may try to assassinate Bran, which may very well start another war and they need to decide a new monarch again.

    Or can Bran foresee these problems and prevent them in advance? But then again, that may churn up more hostility…”

    It didn’t look like Bran could foresee problems, or if he could, he did nothing to prevent them in advance.

    The only indication that I saw that Bran could read the future was his own ascension to the throne, when he made that cryptic comment to Tyrion: “Why do you think I came all this way?”

    The other alternative was that he let a lot of bad sh*t happen without trying to prevent it.

    I don’t know. The show really didn’t provide much clarity about Bran’s (greenseer?) powers. We saw that Jojen was able to “see” future events. I don’t recall any vivid demonstrations that Bran was able to do that, beyond fragmentary images in his slide-show “visions.”

    Oh, and nothing I saw impressed me with King Bran the Broken’s leadership skills. In the last episode he seemed more like a disinterested figurehead than a wise, hands-on, concerned ruler: He got wheeled into the Small Council meeting, didn’t say or do much, and got wheeled right back out a minute later.

    I’d rather have King Robert. He didn’t care much for governing either. At least he threw good parties.

  229. Ten Bears:
    Tiago,

    ”It’s remarkable how a year and a month after the end of Game of Thrones, fans continue to debate the fate of Daenerys. It seems all the comment sections in this site always end there one way or another.”

    Has no one heard of the ancient Roman adage, “All Roads Lead to Arya”?

    When Ten Bears speaks, they surely lead 🙂

  230. Mr Derp</stro
    Mr Derp,

    ng>,

    Oh I’m not going to open nerd black hole know as Star Wars debate. But I wasn’t talking about Rey. Main problem for many in TLJ was Luke Skywalker.

    And I think Rian’s idea was really interesting and original, but mob destroyed it. And who will ever dare do do anything interesting with a character like that? Only role people wanted for him was old wise teacher.

  231. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending:
    Tiago,

    The other problem with her ending is how the other characters are bent to fit in Daenerys ending. It’s almost like they don’t have a life of their own. Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Cersei are only there to make Daenerys goes wrong. We’re talking about characters we’ve followed for eight years, whose role is reduced to influence another character’ ending.

    I really like your way of putting that, and I agree, to a certain extent, with the “bent” feeling. Some of that comes from the structure Martin created, with the obvious existential threat of the Others/WW/Army of the Dead dispatched before the hidden and larger existential threat, Dany, even emerges from the false trappings of a hero in which he’d presented her. Once the undead are buried, the story simply must conclude relatively quickly, else the audience will wonder why they are still watching/reading.

    Martin also failed to provide Benioff and Weiss any actual story after the death of Jon Snow. They finally had to travel to his home and wrest from him an outline of the remaining story, and then figure out for themselves how to finish their version. If he’d produced another actual *book* (or two) after they’d produced Winter is Coming, they might have had enough material for the additional seasons HBO offered (or begged, more likely) them to have. The larger amount of story they had before dispatch of the undead could have allowed them to tell more story after it as well, by having more character’s stories, and longer arcs to conclude for existing characters, before reaching Dany’s Downfall.

    As for the rest of that “bent” feeling, well, take Jon Snow as an example. He joined the Night’s Watch to prove he was as good as a true-born Stark, and he succeeded in spades (ha!). He became the greatest Lord Commander the Night’s Watch ever had! He orchestrated the end of the threat the Night’s Watch existed merely to contain. Once he’d performed that godlike task, what else was there for him to do? Well, in the story, to end the other great threat to humanity. His arc actually was complete with Dany’s death, and as Tyrion pointed out, his killing her fit perfectly with his mission to guard the Realms of Men; thematically, his arc was complete. He feels “bent” only if you declare his arc was finished when the undead were buried, and that was not the case. Remember, Martin set the audience up all along to believe that ending the undead was Jon Snow’s main purpose in the story, so this “bent” feeling was to some degree intentional on Martin’s part.

    You’re right that Jon’s arc in the show ends when he kills Daenerys. I also concede that it’s much easier to avoid that “bent” feeling in a book where you have the POV of the main characters. In a TV series, you can only induce what’s going on in the characters minds from the way they act. Thoughts aren’t described like in the books.

  232. Adrianacandle,

    At the end of the day you can do whatever you want but your criticism is not beyond criticism. And my opinion is that Petra’s opinion dances too close to censorship and “forbidden ideas” narrative where you can’t do something because it’s cynical or offensive.

    There is a backlash against backlash in popular culture debate in general right now. That’s why Cinema Wins is becoming more and more popular. People are just tired of negativety and toxic fandoms. People are just tired that whenever something is not popular it’s turned into crime againts humanity. People are tired of that sort of nerd culture way of looking at things because now with twitter and YT nerds are not contained in their online places they are everywhere with their screeching and people are just tired of it. Look at subbredits for The Last of Us 2. It’s beyond ridiculous.

    It’s like race in extremism. There is hysteria in Westworld fandom right now. Dramatic and over the top like every other drama. And problem is that these people don’t want to stay in their places. They will screech everywhere, attack people, reviewers, review bomb RT, IMDB, be in every comment section, invade every place and turn it into shit.

    There is no reasonable debate if someone is offended by art.

  233. Ten Bears,

    The only indication that I saw that Bran could read the future was his own ascension to the throne, when he made that cryptic comment to Tyrion: “Why do you think I came all this way?”

    There’s also a scene in 4×02 where Bran has glimpses of the future (including the shadow of a dragon pass over King’s Landing):

    But ultimately, yes, I think you’re right. I doubt Bran can see the future. Even Isaac Hempstead Wright seemed unsure (from Harper Bazaar, Did Bran Stark Know He’d Be King All Along?, July 19, 2019. Link not included to ensure post avoids moderation phase):

    “I don’t think Bran knows exactly what will happen in the future,” the actor said at San Diego Comic Con 2019 months after the finale. “His vision of the future is slightly cloudier.”

    Re: Bran telling Sam to tell Jon the truth about his parentage when Sam has just found out Dany executed Sam’s father and brother (from The New York Times, ‘Game of Thrones’: Bran on His Future and the Night King’s Ultimate Fate, May 5 2019):

    That might just be for dramatic tension. But yeah, good point. [Laughs] This is all conjecture on my part. I’ve never actually gone through a very detailed analysis of what exactly Bran’s powers are with [the showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss]. To be honest, I don’t think they really want to do that. It would become like a superhero movie, if we knew every way that Bran’s powers worked and what exactly he can do. It’s best to keep that sense of mystery and an unknown to it.

    Bran doesn’t care. It’s totally irrelevant to Bran that Samwell Tarly’s family has died, unfortunately. The Three-Eyed Raven doesn’t see things in terms of personal sadness. He just sees things in terms of the way things must unfold, or the way time goes. He’s not going to go, “Oh, I’m sorry, Sam. I hope you feel better in a minute.” He just sees things that have to happen next, and the importance of those things far outweighs any personal tragedies that might occur. It sounds brutal! But that’s been the role of the Three-Eyed Raven for millennia. To sit there, watching, carefully. He doesn’t sit there judging. He doesn’t sit there advising. He just sits there keeping an eye on history and time.

    ____

    Oh, and nothing I saw impressed me with King Bran the Broken’s leadership skills. In the last episode he seemed more like a disinterested figurehead than a wise, hands-on, concerned ruler: He got wheeled into the Small Council meeting, didn’t say or do much, and got wheeled right back out a minute later.

    We never got to see the leadership skills of King Bran the Broken either. But yes, he did seem pretty removed from human concerns anyhow. I saw a few people here posit (in past threads) that Bran might be acting as a figurehead/final judge while the council goes about the business of discussing what to do and bringing it to Bran.

    I’d rather have King Robert. He didn’t care much for governing either. At least he threw good parties.

    And he also let his council rule for him too, in which they came to him for the final say as king 😉

    I had the impression Robert liked the fighting/war bits but not so much the ruling part.

  234. Mr Derp,

    None of these things with Star Wars writers ever happened. But I don’t blame you. It is a goal of toxic nerds to repeat the same thing over and over until people forget the truth. Like D&D leaving GoT for Star Wars.

    That was Nike campaign. And writers of SW never attacked any fans.

    But toxic fandom needs to create these false narratives that these people in charge are not only bad writers but also horrible people so they can completely dehumanize them at then everything is allowed if you want to attack them.

  235. Mr Derp,

    ”Yes, and the kid who has a “good story” is one that pretty much every kingdom would find hard to believe, especially because they don’t know what a 3 Eyed Raven is or why it’s important. Since the WW story ended in the North, the rest of the kingdoms still believe it’s a bunch of b.s., right? If the story was consistent, then the leaders of the individual kingdoms would find Tyrion and Bran’s story laughable at best…”

    Right. I would expect “the leaders of the individual kingdoms” to react to Bran’s story the same way the Citadel Masters did in S7: getting a big laugh out of a story about “a crippled boy talking to magic birds,” and dismissing whatever he had to say as likely some kind of ruse.

    Particularly since the scene abruptly cut away when Bran was about to tell his “story” to Tyrion in S8e2, neither we nor the electors were shown why Bran had the “best” story, or why that qualified him to lead a war-torn kingdom.

    Frankly, I was disappointed that after all the sacrifices made to insure Bran’s survival (e.g., by Hodor, Leaf, Summer, et al.), and all the hints that he would be indispensable in the showdown against the AotD, neither Bran nor his powers really played any vital part in the big battle. (And no, I don’t want to hear about the silly Bran Bait Plan, or how important it was to preserve his database of “memories.”) I thought Bran would use his time traveling powers to find some critical information in the past. Nope. Didn’t happen. Nor did he provide any valuable reconnaissance information to the WF defenders in S8e3 (or to Team Dany for the assault on KL in the ensuing episodes). Telling people after the fact stuff like “You were exactly where you were supposed to be” didn’t cut it. Hot Pie could’ve come up with that pearl of wisdom. Or Kinvara (“everything happens for a reason”).

    Seriously, a one or two minute scene illustrating how Bran/3ER 2.0 would be a decent king would have been reassuring – to the viewer and to the people he was going to rule. Instead, he was an enigma. As you intimated, all they saw was a weird kid with a bizarre story relayed by an prisoner accused of treason. If there was a reason why they would all buy that story, it could have been shown on screen.

  236. mau,

    At the end of the day you can do whatever you want but your criticism is not beyond criticism.

    Yes, people are free to criticize my opinion too. I’ve never objected to that. I may respond and disagree but I’d never say, “You can’t disagree with me. That’s not allowed.” Discussion and respectful disagreement is what creates a dialogue.

    And my opinion is that Petra’s opinion dances too close to censorship and “forbidden ideas” narrative where you can’t do something because it’s cynical or offensive.

    Alright, and I’m disagreeing with your opinion in turn — I’m not telling you you’re not allowed to have it. I, myself, didn’t see anything where Petra was forbidding anybody from expressing ideas, but pointing out problems she saw in their portrayal. There, I’m not seeing what you’re seeing but I’m not saying, “You can’t say this or dispute this.” I think that would be censorship.

    There is a backlash against backlash in popular culture debate in general right now. That’s why Cinema Wins is becoming more and more popular. People are just tired of negativety and toxic fandoms. People are just tired that whenever something is not popular it’s turned into crime againts humanity. People are tired of that sort of nerd culture way of looking at things because now with twitter and YT nerds are not contained in their online places they are everywhere with their screeching and people are just tired of it. Look at subbredits for The Last of Us 2. It’s beyond ridiculous.

    I’m not part of The Last of Us fandom and I think the angry mob culture can go too far when it gets personal and I think people do make reaches.

    But I think, as long as people discuss and debate respectfully, avoid getting personal, avoid attacking the writers/actors/etc. and each other, as long as we don’t accuse, and don’t dismiss, we can discuss these ideas and good can come out of that.

    I don’t agree with all criticisms of the final season of Game of Thrones and I’ve seen some voice some opinions I, personally, think are reaching. But other criticisms, yes, I do agree with.

    It’s like race in extremism. There is hysteria in Westworld fandom right now. Dramatic and over the top like every other drama. And problem is that these people don’t want to stay in their places. They will screech everywhere, attack people, reviewers, review bomb RT, IMDB, be in every comment section, invade every place and turn it into shit.

    Oh, there is extremism no doubt and I think some on a certain subreddit for GoT go way too far because they do make it personal, they do attack the writers themselves, they do engage in angry mob mentality. And I think review bombing and attacking others (writers, actors, other reviewers/fans) is wrong.

    But I think this is a matter of crossing a line. It’s not respectful or healthy debate.

    There is no reasonable debate if someone is offended by art.

    I think there is if they’re willing to do so respectfully, explain their views, and engage in a dialogue in which their views are challenged (rather than ranting into an echo chamber).

    I do agree with Petra’s criticisms of how GoT portrayed mental illness. I’m part of the mental illness community and it was a focus of my grad thesis. It is also a stigma I’ve suffered myself. One of the supervisors for my thesis wrote a book entitled, “Remembrance of Patients Past: Patient Life at the Toronto Hospital for the Insane, 1870-1940” and taught a course called “A Mad People’s History”. It looked at some of the stuff Petra was examining (not with Game of Thrones specifically but in media and how mental illness was represented and portrayed).

    There are valid concerns over the portrayal of madness in media and I think Petra addresses those concerns. You don’t have to agree and nobody is telling you to agree, really! But I think that debate is an important one to have since mental illness is so stigmatized.

  237. mau: There is a backlash against backlash in popular culture debate in general right now. That’s why Cinema Wins is becoming more and more popular. People are just tired of negativety and toxic fandoms. People are just tired that whenever something is not popular it’s turned into crime againts humanity.

    I wanted to add — I think this, too, is an important debate to add because I think it asks a good question: “How far is too far when expressing anger?” Not just in fandom, but in real life too. For instance, when does cancel culture become toxic?

    There’s a debate currently going on with Jenna Marbles and she is being attacked for a video she did 9-10 years ago on her YouTube channel (and has been made private for quite some time by now). It’s been years since she’s done/said anything similar and has made quite a few apologies for it in the past. However, this latest round had Jenna leave YouTube altogether. It’s prompted a debate discussing when cancel culture goes too far (I’d say some YouTubers definitely deserve to be called out but if you’re interested in this debate, you can look up reactions to Jenna Marbles quitting and the video she is being attacked over).

  238. Adrianacandle,

    Sadly internet is not like this place, and if you use twitter or reddit it becomes obvious how debate around almost everything in pop culture that is not universally loved is ruined. Westworld, Star Wars, The Last of Us, Game of Thrones,… Whenever there is some controversy it becomes race in extremism as I said. Who will say something more extreme and who will be more outraged about something. If you listen to people talk about Westworld you will assume they just watched child pornography. That’s the level of disgust they express. And how you can have reasonable debate with someone who wanted to punsh TV and can’t watch a second of GoT anymore without emotional breakdown. These people had meltdown when D&D appeared in Westworld. Lol

    And they just lie all the time. Just now there is fake script of the Bells online, claiming that evil D&D changed the ending in post production to ruin Daenerys.

    Fun fact: The current nerd rage is abour the Last of Us 2 and Benioff appears there as well. At least his book does in one scene lol Last of Us is inspired by his book City of Thieves.

    And I DO think that last season and GoT as a whole has flaws. I think Bran as a character is the biggest fail in the show. I think S7 needed one more episode and S8 two more. But at some point I just want to talk about things that I liked about the show. Isn’t that the point of fandom of a show that is over? Nothing will ever be changed. I will never get those 3 episodes that last two seasons needed and I just don’t want this state of endless frustration where we just as fans talk about things we didn’t like.

  239. mau,

    Sadly internet is not like this place, and if you use twitter or reddit it becomes obvious how debate around almost everything in pop culture that is not universally loved is ruined. Westworld, Star Wars, The Last of Us, Game of Thrones,… Whenever there is some controversy it becomes race in extremism as I said. Who will say something more extreme and who will be more outraged about something. If you listen to people talk about Westworld you will assume they just watched child pornography. That’s the level of disgust they express. And how you can have reasonable debate with someone who wanted to punsh TV and can’t watch a second of GoT anymore without emotional breakdown. These people had meltdown when D&D appeared in Westworld. Lol

    Oh, definitely. I think parts of this fandom can get way too extreme and way too stannish and way too personal (and sometimes, when it gets really personal, it borders on downright scary). I’ve seen it — on Twitter, on Tumblr, on YouTube, on Reddit. And some of it is alarming.

    But at some point I just want to talk about things that I liked about the show. Isn’t that the point of fandom of a show that is over? Nothing will ever be changed. I will never get those 3 episodes that last two seasons needed and I just don’t want this state of endless frustration where we just as fans talk about things we didn’t like.

    You’re right — the dye is cast, the ink is dry (as far as the show goes) and I think you can still talk about the things you liked about the show! For instance, in the David Nutter thread, Ten Bears introduced a topic asking, “Just to balance things out, should we start nominating Best Ever Scene(s): a more difficult task because there were so many great scenes over the course of 73 episodes?” and people responded with their own lists 🙂

    Maybe that’s something we can do more of?

    But I also there will always be talk over the more frustrating aspects as well because people do care, this show was/is important to them. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t be here (especially not a year+ after the show’s ended).

    I think I get where you’re coming from. I can understand the exhaustion over the negativity, it’s something I feel too with certain debates — they’re endless, they get nowhere new. But I don’t think they should be put in a box and never discussed/brought up again either.

    But I think I understand where you’re coming from and I think there’s definitely validity with feeling frustrated by all the negativity.

  240. Adrianacandle,

    Yeah. I will research about that.

    But I do think this is a huge problem. They have this sense of power that is very dangerous. You would be shocked to see how many people still think that last season will be remade.

    We created a culture where if you whine enough online, if you review bomb games, shows and movies, write petitions and just in general create a lot of noise you will get what you want.

    And the biggest problem, these people lie all the time. And some of these lies are now accepted as truths and you can’t even debate them anymore.

    So when I see even this place turned into whine fest sometimes it is disappointing. Because no matter how respectful you are or nice or whatever I just don’t want to her D&D BAD no matter how eloquent or respectful it is.

    It’s been more than a year. It’s enough.

  241. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    I’m not saying she doesn’t have right to complain. I’m saying it almost feels like she is denying autonomy to the writers. If they want cynical story that’s what the story is. Show belongs to Benioff and Weiss and they can do whatever they want.

    And when it comes to execution it all comes to this false idea that Daenerys really cares about other people. She is like Stalin. She cares about oppressed. In an abstract way. But what she really cares about is absolute power. She wanted to burn cities and castles too many times for us to really believe that she cares what happens with common people.

    Writers have all the right to write a story that is or feels cynical in its heart. Fair enough. And fans have the right to say that a story like that is not for them. They can say that ending X made them feel the whole story is pointless. That’s rather trivial, if they express it politely, without crossing the line of civility.

    As for the idea that Daenerys doesn’t really care about other people, many of her actions are really strange, not to say stupid, if that’s the case. If she only cares about power, she incurs into unnecessary costs to her goals too many times. The sack of Astapor is one clear example. She doesn’t have any need to free the slaves. In fact, the decision of releasing had a lot of potential problems to her Westerosi goals. She did it anyway. Was she brutal? Yes, she was. But killing the slaves and starting a revolution in that region was more right than sealing the deal with Kraznys and simply go to Westeros as if it was business as usual. That attitude would be much more of a red flag to me about Daenerys having the Iron Throne as her only goal. The problem with slavery wasn’t just slavery in itself. Daenerys knew beforehand she would find a city of slaves. The main problem was that the majority of them were victims of a completely subhuman treatment. The effort of humanizing the dehumanized must be cherished, although with care, because Daenerys, as her dragons grow, has the potential to do great good but also great harm. The decision of staying in Meereen, after he hears the consequences of leaving Astapor behing with no solid system of government, is another example.

    Caring about common people and desiring power don’t have to be mutually exclusive traits. They are in this story, because it seems the writers want to highlight that as conclusion of the story. In fact, caring about people and desiring power are the mix that makes the best politicians in the real world. Politicians who only desire power, without caring by whom they rule are dangerous. People that care about common people, but don’t want power aren’t politicians. The political game inside a democratic party can be really harsh. Only people that really want it reach those forefront positions.

    I saw you have commentated that the ending of Daenerys was especially relevant at the age of populist politicians. But the majority of populist politicians we see today advocate ideas rather different to the ones associated with Daenerys. They are more in line with Cersei and her Mad Queen speech (7×02) and the philosophy of Randyll Tarly: see everything foreign as inferior or dangerous. In fact, if we analyse GoT characters and societies in a 21st century light, we conclude that all of them, more or less, suck.

  242. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    Yeah. I will research about that.

    But I do think this is a huge problem. They have this sense of power that is very dangerous. You would be shocked to see how many people still think that last season will be remade.

    We created a culture where if you whine enough online, if you review bomb games, shows and movies, write petitions and just in general create a lot of noise you will get what you want.

    And the biggest problem, these people lie all the time. And some of these lies are now accepted as truths and you can’t even debate them anymore.

    So when I see even this place turned into whine fest sometimes it is disappointing. Because no matter how respectful you are or nice or whatever I just don’t want to her D&D BAD no matter how eloquent or respectful it is.

    It’s been more than a year. It’s enough.

    While there’s no new ASOIAF book or news about the HotD, we still discuss GoT’s ending. People will eventuallly move on. I’m perfectly fine with the ending, even if, in my opinion, could be better. It doesn’t cause me any angry feelings. Even if we were all emotionally invested in this TV series, it’s important to remember that it’s just it… good entertainment.

  243. mau,

    Yeah. I will research about that.

    Here’s one video that I think does some thoughtful critique over cancel culture (in response to the Jenna Marbles debate. However, as a note, Jenna didn’t actually wear blackface ie. wear make-up to make her skin specifically darker for this video, it was the darker spray tan she was using regularly at the time from 2010-2011 and with the pastel wig she wore, it gave the impression of blackface) and if you’re interested, I’d suggest definitely looking up her own video in which she addresses this stuff and other reaction/response videos.

    But I do think this is a huge problem. They have this sense of power that is very dangerous. You would be shocked to see how many people still think that last season will be remade.

    We created a culture where if you whine enough online, if you review bomb games, shows and movies, write petitions and just in general create a lot of noise you will get what you want.

    Oh, yes, I know there are still quite a few people who are demanding the final season be remade! I don’t participate in these communities but I do lurk.

    But I think this is an example of when things going too far and I think it really reflects badly on fandom. I find it embarrassing — especially when it reaches the point of bullying actors (Sam Heughan recently came out about how he’s been cyber bullied and harassed by fans, and he’s has received death threats from fans, which I find mortifying. This behavior embarrasses me as a fan of Outlander), personally disparaging the writers/actors, and coming up with conspiracy theories blaming actors for certain storylines.

    I think this goes beyond simple whining though.

    And the biggest problem, these people lie all the time. And some of these lies are now accepted as truths and you can’t even debate them anymore.

    So when I see even this place turned into whine fest sometimes it is disappointing. Because no matter how respectful you are or nice or whatever I just don’t want to her D&D BAD no matter how eloquent or respectful it is.

    It’s been more than a year. It’s enough.

    I think I can understand this and empathize with it on a certain level (I remember feeling a similar way with Buffy, though I really disliked the last season of that show) but I don’t think we can ask people to stop voicing their frustrations, discussing them, or putting a time limit on them.

  244. Adrianacandle,

    I forgot to put this quote from mau’s post in quotation marks when referencing it in my above (June 29, 2020 at 7:08 pm) post:

    And the biggest problem, these people lie all the time. And some of these lies are now accepted as truths and you can’t even debate them anymore.

    I’m sorry, mau!! 🙁

  245. mau: It is all about balance I agree. This place is mostly great don’t get me wrong. I am speakig about larger problems.

    I agree (and I agree there are larger problems with fandom toxicity, like the ones we discussed in which it goes to extremes).

    Tiago: While there’s no new ASOIAF book or news about the HotD, we still discuss GoT’s ending. People will eventuallly move on. I’m perfectly fine with the ending, even if, in my opinion, could be better. It doesn’t cause me any angry feelings. Even if we were all emotionally invested in this TV series, it’s important to remember that it’s just it… good entertainment.

    I agree with this too (and I’m thinking these debates will eventually move on. I think that will be helped when we get new developments about HotD and perhaps TWOW).

  246. Adrianacandle,

    Let me throw in my two cents and say that:

    • You can critique aspects of the show and still love it. I have, and I do.

    • The suggestion that “art” is allowed to be offensive but the audience can’t criticize it “something because it’s cynical or offensive” or that expressing contrary opinions “dances too close to censorship” are self-repugnant:
    If a storyteller portrays something that some people may perceive as offensive in order to pose “questions,” push the envelope, or spur debate, then expressing disagreement is merely accepting that invitation.
    Otherwise, it would be reverse censorship to condemn a critique as “censorship.”

    • If Petra and others criticized the portrayal of mental illness, I’ve seen nothing that indicates these opinions were anything but civil and respectful.
    I for one didn’t think the manifestation of “Targ madness” was credible. I’m not an expert though. I’ll defer to others who have more personal experience or education.

    • I am still confused about Dany’s motivations and state of mind when she suddenly went on a carpet bombing rampage after the city had already surrendered. Was it because the Targ looney gene suddenly kicked in? Was it because people didn’t love her? Was it because she was sleep-deprived and strung out? Was it because Jon wasn’t in a frisky mood anymore? I thought I had a general idea why.

    However, then I saw D.B. Weiss on the “Inside the Episode” segment say something like “in that moment, she saw the Red Keep, a symbol of everything that had been taken away from her,” and that’s why she torched the city. Huh???
    I still have no idea what he meant.
    ( He had a similarly confounding interpretation of Needle as a “symbol” when discussing Arya’s Braavos dock scene; I’ll refrain from going into that for now.)

    • As you know, I recently went off on a criticism of what I perceived as a resort to the debunked “surviving abuse as female empowerment” theme in Sansa’s S8e4 scene with Sandor. I thought it was a tone-deaf, distasteful characterization. I also recognized other people may have perceived the scene differently, and that it’s possible that women who’ve actually endured emotional and physical abuse would feel differently.
    I wouldn’t want someone to condemn me or condemn anyone else because we disagree with the way the consequences of abuse are portrayed on the show, or if we explain why we found the scene offensive.

    • Lastly – and I think others have said this – if we’re all supposed to applaud everything in every episode as bri____nt and perfect, at the risk of being bashed as a hater or censor, then why bother discussing the show at all?

  247. Tiago,

    ”Caring about common people and desiring power don’t have to be mutually exclusive traits. They are in this story, because it seems the writers want to highlight that as conclusion of the story. In fact, caring about people and desiring power are the mix that makes the best politicians in the real world…”

    Caring for common people co-existing with ambition for power: R.I.P. Queen Margaery. 😥

  248. Ten Bears,

    I agree with much of what you said and I also think mau has a point where fandom upset can get to a point where it’s too extreme, where it’s no longer constructive (his cited examples review bombing, that petition, attacking people/other fans, attacking the writers, attacking reviewers, attacking actors). And I think that’s an important topic to examine too — at what point does backlash become toxic?

    And, for my part, I also don’t think criticizing the ideas/execution of plots/writing/plotting choices/etc. put forth by art and/or other media falls into toxic categories for some of the reasons you’ve stated. It’s a dialogue. And sometimes, an important dialogue (like portrayal of mental illness in media).

    However, then I saw D.B. Weiss on the “Inside the Episode” segment say something like “in that moment, she saw the Red Keep, a symbol of everything that had been taken away from her,” and that’s why she torched the city. Huh???

    And I thought in the next episode, perhaps they were going for an idea of tragic extremist idealism — believing (albeit delusionally) what she was doing what was right and good for the sake of a better world and employing any means to do it in order to achieve her personal ideals. But I’m not sure how that lines up with the decision to “make it personal” when she’s triggered by the Red Keep because it was a symbol of everything that was taken away from her family (I interpreted this statement as a final trigger representative of everything she’s lost — both recently and what her family lost 20+ years ago, resulting in a life of childhood hardships she’s had to endure growing up and some of the hardships she faced as a result, like being sold for an army. And in that way, it feels like vengeance).

    But this is an endless debate, one that I think won’t ever settle on a single answer :/

    As you know, I recently went off on a criticism of what I perceived as a resort to the debunked “surviving abuse as female empowerment” theme in Sansa’s S8e4 scene with Sandor. I thought it was a tone-deaf, distasteful characterization. I also recognized other people may have perceived the scene differently, and that it’s possible that women who’ve actually endured emotional and physical abuse would feel differently.
    I wouldn’t want someone to condemn me or condemn anyone else because we disagree with the way the consequences of abuse are portrayed on the show, or if we explain why we found the scene offensive.

    I agree. I have my own thoughts on that but I know my own feelings may not be reflective of everyone’s.

    Lastly – and I think others have said this – if we’re all supposed to applaud everything in every episode as bri____nt and perfect, at the risk of being bashed as a hater or censor, then why bother discussing the show at all?

    I agree. And I understand being exhausted by the negativity and it can be hurtful to hear. At the same time, yes, part of discussion is criticism.

    And if I didn’t love this show, I would not still be around — or in the fandom community at all. I’m not on the This Is Us subreddits and while I thought the first season was okay, I found myself growing increasingly annoyed by that show until I dropped it altogether.

    And, like you said, “You can critique aspects of the show and still love it. I have, and I do. “

    I also know when I put my opinion out there in a public space (especially a space meant for discussion), I am making the choice of opening the door to criticism and disagreement over my words. For that reason, I find the phrase “don’t @ me” (often used on Twitter and Tumblr) when posting public opinions quite passive-aggressive because it’s (unless I’m misunderstanding and if I am, please correct me!) another way of saying, “Don’t argue with me,” “don’t respond directly to me,” “I want to say whatever I want without being criticized.” I kind of think that if you’re going to dish it in public, be prepared to take it (but within reason — not resorting to personal attacks/accusations/assumptions/disrespect).

  249. Adrianacandle,

    ” You’re right — the dye is cast, the ink is dry (as far as the show goes) and I think you can still talk about the things you liked about the show! For instance, in the David Nutter thread, Ten Bears introduced a topic asking, “Just to balance things out, should we start nominating Best Ever Scene(s): a more difficult task because there were so many great scenes over the course of 73 episodes?” and people responded with their own lists 🙂

    Maybe that’s something we can do more of?”

    Yeah, I did write that, didn’t I? 😁
    And I’m still conducting that exercise: selecting each character’s best scenes, and identifying what I thought were the best overall scenes throughout the 73-episode run of the show.

    Let me make an observation and see if it makes any sense: It’s much easier to identify a “misfire” and articulate why it landed with a thud than it is to explain why a great scene was great.

    I know there’s a metaphor for what I’m trying to say. I forget the exact wording. It’s stated more elegantly than this: It’s something like how a protruding nail gets the hammer. Something that looks out of place or defects in something that is awkwardly assembled are more noticeable than something that is artfully constructed. In a TV show or movie, the immersion is unbroken. You don’t notice the separate pieces because they fit together seamlessly.

    (Am I making sense?)

    For example, the fandom will debate forever the unanswered question why Sansa concealed the KotV. One side will extrapolate her thought processes to interpret her silence as br____nt strategy to protect against Jon’s impetuousness. Others will say her omission of critical information was selfish and inexcusable. (Even Sophie doesn’t know why Sansa did this.) There’s enough ambiguity to keep this debate going in perpetuity.

    By contrast, we rarely see detailed analyses about why Oberyn’s S4e7 scene with Tyrion (“I will be your champion”) fired on all cylinders. That’s because, at least for me, I was engrossed in that scene from start to finish. The acting, the dialogue, the direction – all came together. At no point did I step out of the “moment” and ask the TV, “Wait, WTF?”

    It’s a real challenge for someone like me without a drama or screenwriting background to pick apart a great scene to figure out why it worked so well. A well-written, well-constructed scene doesn’t reveal the unseen Oz behind the curtain.
    When a director tweaks the script to create or amplify the “drama” (yes, I’m looking at you, Mr. Mylod for portraying Clueless Arya getting stabbed), the manipulations are more obvious.

    I guess what I’m saying is that (to latch on to the carpentry metaphor) if there are no nails sticking out of the surface and there are no spaces between the joints of interlocking pieces, it’s a real challenge to figure out how the finished product was designed and put together.

    Still, maybe it’s worth the effort to try to do that. The number of great scenes and great episodes far exceed the few that incite inordinate amounts of criticism. I for one am going to try to make the effort.

  250. mau:
    Adrianacandle,
    I mean we literally had

    606 – Dany to her army – let’s go and kill my enemies destroy their houses

    805 – They do that

    806 – Speech that is copy paste from 606 where she thanks them

    Some fans: Out of nowhere. No motivation. I don’t see anything here.

    This isn’t anything we haven’t seen before. It’s Stannis all over again. There was backlash then too when Stannis burned Shireen, his fans crying, “it came out of nowhere” and “he burned her for no reason,” many of the comments we saw after King’s Landing’s destruction. The only difference is that Danerys has a larger fan base, so the backlash was more intense.

  251. Mango:
    Okey, Dokey…….Can we all agree that the writing for GOT Season 8 was poor, particularly 8.4, 8.5, 8.6?

    I’m not sure why you would bother to ask a question you already know the answer to. No, it was not poor. The writing for Season 8 was superb, on par with the writing of the seasons that came before.

  252. Ten Bears,

    Let me make an observation and see if it makes any sense: It’s much easier to identify a “misfire” and articulate why it landed with a thud than it is to explain why a great scene was great.
    I know there’s a metaphor for what I’m trying to say. I forget the exact wording. It’s stated more elegantly than this: It’s something like how a protruding nail gets the hammer. Something that looks out of place or defects in something that is awkwardly assembled are more noticeable than something that is artfully constructed. In a TV show or movie, the immersion is unbroken. You don’t notice the separate pieces because they fit together seamlessly.
    (Am I making sense?)

    You are! And I agree.

    And I agree about feeling the engineering and strings pushing a plot to amplify the drama, it does sort of take me out of the moment sometimes too.

    Admittedly, when I first watched BotB, it was a goosebumps moment when Sansa arrived with the Vale at the very second all seemed lost but later, it was like, “Wait a minute… WTF?” And I haven’t been able to be in the Vale arrival moment since for the reasons you stated.

    However, you’re right, that conundrum in particular is an endless debate that I don’t feel the fandom will ever settle on.

    By contrast, we rarely see detailed analyses about why Oberyn’s S4e7 scene with Tyrion (“I will be your champion”) fired on all cylinders. That’s because, at least for me, I was engrossed in that scene from start to finish. The acting, the dialogue, the direction – all came together. At no point did I step out of the “moment” and ask the TV, “Wait, WTF?”

    Yes!

    And that is a great great scene — I also liked the show-only scenes of Arya and Tywin in season 2 and the season 3 scene with Catelyn talking to Talisa about Jon Snow. I know the latter is pretty controversial with book readers but I liked it (I did get teary). And I love Michelle Fairley’s portrayal of Catelyn so so much. I think the show did a great job with Catelyn. She warmed me up to Catelyn in a way I wasn’t when reading the books. She really made me feel for Catelyn, sort of like how Lena Headey made me really feel for Cersei.

    (And I think your carpentry metaphor is apt).

    I guess what I’m saying is that (to latch on to the carpentry metaphor) if there are no nails sticking out of the surface and there are no spaces between the joints of interlocking pieces, it’s a real challenge to figure out how the finished product was designed and put together.

    Still, maybe it’s worth the effort to try to do that. The number of great scenes and great episodes far exceed the few that incite inordinate amounts of criticism. I for one am going to try to make the effort.

    Absolutely! And I think some positivity would be welcome and add some levity to these pretty intense debates.

    And thanks for introducing this topic and asking us to list moments we loved 🙂 🙂 🙂

  253. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    Sadly internet is not like this place, and if you use twitter or reddit it becomes obvious how debate around almost everything in pop culture that is not universally loved is ruined. Westworld, Star Wars, The Last of Us, Game of Thrones,… Whenever there is some controversy it becomes race in extremism as I said. Who will say something more extreme and who will be more outraged about something. If you listen to people talk about Westworld you will assume they just watched child pornography. That’s the level of disgust they express. And how you can have reasonable debate with someone who wanted to punsh TV and can’t watch a second of GoT anymore without emotional breakdown. These people had meltdown when D&D appeared in Westworld. Lol

    And they just lie all the time. Just now there is fake script of the Bells online, claiming that evil D&D changed the ending in post production to ruinDaenerys.

    Fun fact: The current nerd rage is abour the Last of Us 2 and Benioff appears there as well. At least his book does in one scene lol Last of Us is inspired by his book City of Thieves.

    And I DO think that last season and GoT as a whole has flaws. I think Bran as a character is the biggest fail in the show. I think S7 needed one more episode and S8 two more. But at some point I just want to talk about things that I liked about the show. Isn’t that the point of fandom of a show that is over? Nothing will ever be changed. I will never get those 3 episodes that last two seasons needed and I just don’t want this state of endless frustration where we just as fans talk about things we didn’t like.

    I will admit I’m late to the discussion, but I’m jumping in because the rest of the world is depressing right now, and this is probably my favorite place to hang out. Adrianacandle and others included a wealth of material for me to go back and review. I do agree with you that I do want to talk about things that I liked as a fan, but I also seek out this community to help me understand. I often do this on the Internet in general when I watch a movie and experience an ending that didn’t make sense to me. I figure someone else might have caught what I missed. I think people have been too hard on D&D. Once the source material was used up, I noticed a major tone shift. It wasn’t all for the worse. D&D would throw in more comedy in their dialogue. Some Dothraki scenes come to mind right away. It’s not that GRRM doesn’t have a sense of humor in his books, but I found the dialogue loosened up once D&D went into uncharted book territory. I don’t think anyone imagined that the show would pass the books. I don’t think D&D signed up for that prospect, and I have to commend them. I do think they had to put a limit on the number of episodes. The kids were getting older, and their luck was probably going to run out being able to keep the major cast together for so long. So yes, I felt that they rushed to the finish as compared to earlier years. But again it’s not a deal breaker for me.

    Back to “The Bells” episode again, I was confused when I first saw it, because I didn’t get why she didn’t go straight for the Red Keep. I totally understood that she wasn’t going to let Cersei get away with it, but I didn’t understand why she did a serpentine maneuver burning down everyone on the streets along the way.
    In the end, I had to take this as more strategic than rage. D&D seemed to indicate in the behind the scenes that it was a tipping point for Dany. But to me, I heard her saying that she needed people to fear her and mercy would not be her weakness. Cersei could not exploit her “mercy”. So I felt it was more a strategic decision. Mercy is a major theme in GOT. It seemed that Mercy was definitely not a virtue for GOT characters. It sent Ned to his death. Arya was mentored by Sandor that mercy would get her killed. Arya’s name is Mercy in TWOW sample chapter and that was also her name in the show when she met Lady Crane. I think it holds together if you consider Dany’s motivation that she will save “mercy” for the next generation. I can accept Dany’s decision as both strategy and rage, but if it was totally rage, I think she would have gone after Cersei first and then burned down the city later possibly. It’s a tough one, but it’s just not a deal breaker for me that it ruins my enjoyment of the series as a whole. As a fan, I was absolutely mesmerized by The Bells. Watching Arya survive the firebombing was an incredible sequence of film-making. I knew for sure when Tyrion was going on and on about those bells that Dany wasn’t going to listen to him. That part didn’t come out of the blue. I am still blown away by the scope of work that was done to create their own Kings Landing just to destroy it. I consider myself a fan, and as a fan, those are things I truly appreciate.

    A problem I had is I never bought the chemistry between Kit and Emilia. Their romance did feel forced to me and yes I’ll use that term “rushed”. But I’m not sure if it would have mattered to take longer. It would never compare to the sexual tension between Jon and Ygritte. Since Kit married Rose, I guess they felt that chemistry too!

    I think Dany was too Queenly with Jon to make it romantic. The way she spoke was distant. She kept Jon at a distance not allowing him to approach her in the throne room. Jon couldn’t really flirt with her while pleading to the world that Death was coming for them all!! That’s not exactly a romantic conversation starter. Jon wasn’t all flirty and cocky like Daario. There just weren’t that many opportunities for them to get their romance on until the love boat. With Jon and Ygritte, they were thrown together with just the two of them for a number of episodes. There was a constant sexual cat and mouse game going on. So for me as a fan, I didn’t really buy Jon and Dany together, and that had a domino effect that wasn’t just one episode. Since I never really bought their relationship, I didn’t feel as much when Jon decided he had to kill Dany. Just imagine if it was Ygritte he had to kill to save his sisters. Would he have done it? Wow, that’s the first time I thought of that question. I wonder what others think.

  254. Tron79: Just imagine if it was Ygritte he had to kill to save his sisters. Would he have done it? Wow, that’s the first time I thought of that question. I wonder what others think.

    I think he would have, yes. And I think, ultimately, this is the decision this character is supposed to make — which is what makes it so agonizing. In the books, Jon was resigned to the possibility of killing Ygritte. He really didn’t want to, he hesitated, he willed Ygritte to leave because she’d only find death at Castle Black — but he did seem resolved. And he thought it was his arrow that killed her (he had to check. And in his nightmares, it’s always his own arrow that kills her).

    But I don’t think Jon’s decision was just about his sisters. I think that was the final factor that pushed him, but it was also about the people too and in some ways, I think he needed that final factor to push him into killing Dany, an action he fought against resorting to.

  255. Tron79,

    I know “you can’t always get what you want”, but I would have loved to have seen Arya take the burden from Jon and kill Dany herself. I could see her doing this for her brother even if Jon would hate her for it. She would have taken all that guilt from him. As a fan, I loved how Arya just popped out of nowhere next to Jon at the top of the steps in the finale.
    I think the show decided Arya already had her moment killing the NK. But I think it would have been totally in character, and she may have been able to go on the run much like “Kung Fu” and go on her Western adventure sequel as a fugitive. It worked great for Kung Fu. Following the Kung Fu formula, she would find someone new in each town to defend and have a major fight before the end of each episode… Oh well, signing off for now. I guess you can tell I’m a dreamer. I understand these things will never happen other than in fan fiction, but doesn’t stop me from dreaming!

  256. Mango,

    Okey, Dokey…….Can we all agree that the writing for GOT Season 8 was poor, particularly 8.4, 8.5, 8.6? (Ok, 8.2 was good! and if you could see it, 8.3 looked like a lot of work!)

    Q: How does one judge the “writing” when an episode doesn’t have very much dialogue? Does “poor” writing include action scenes that don’t seem to make sense, or sequences that have jarring edits and jump cuts?

    For me, if a speech is corny or dialogue doesn’t comport with a character’s established personality, that’s “poor” writing. I’d also include scenes that abruptly end, and long scenes of a character just walking around and grimacing, or rearranging chairs.

    Finally, there’s the problem when an episode has a few well-written scenes and a few that suck. What then?

    Anyway, tentatively I’d agree that the writing for S8e4 and S8e6 was not up to par.
    I can’t label S8e5 as “poor” because… “Sandor! Thank you.”

    Also, let’s not let the Big Kahuna off the hook. The showrunners signed up to do an adaptation of novels for TV, not finish G’s story for him. They never would’ve had to write an ending – and expose themselves to criticism – if G had gotten the books done.

  257. Adrianacandle: I think he would have, yes. And I think, ultimately, this is the decision this character is supposed to make — which is what makes it so agonizing. In the books, Jon was resigned to the possibility of killing Ygritte. He really didn’t want to, he hesitated, he willed Ygritte to leave because she’d only find death at Castle Black — but he did seem resolved. And he thought it was his arrow that killed her (he had to check. And in his nightmares, it’s always his own arrow that kills her).

    But I don’t think Jon’s decision was just about his sisters. I think that was the final factor that pushed him, but it was also about the people too and in some ways, I think he needed that final factor to push him into killing Dany, an action he fought against resorting to.

    You may be right, but I would have felt the pain much deeper if he had to kill Ygritte.
    In the show, Jon wasn’t going for the idea of killing Dany until Tyrion brought up Jon’s sisters. I was searching for the script to find the exact dialogue, but you may have it. As you said it was the final factor that pushed him. But I don’t think he would have done it otherwise. From what I recall, he was still thinking of Dany as his queen until then. Yes Tyrion was trying to be persuasive, but until Tyrion brought up his sisters, Jon wasn’t budging. In the end his loyalty to his Stark family was more than his loyalty to his Targaryen family. I felt his inner struggle was more about his Stark loyalties vs. his Targaryen loyalties and less about saving the rest of the world from Dany’s tyranny. I can understand if you saw this differently. I think GRRM wants to explore the tension between Jon’s Stark roots and new Targaryen family, so I wouldn’t doubt if this becomes part of the book scene where he has to decide to do the same thing as the show.

  258. Tron79,

    With Jon and Ygritte, they were thrown together with just the two of them for a number of episodes. There was a constant sexual cat and mouse game going on. So for me as a fan, I didn’t really buy Jon and Dany together, and that had a domino effect that wasn’t just one episode. Since I never really bought their relationship, I didn’t feel as much when Jon decided he had to kill Dany.

    I hear you. I was not invested in Jon & Dany’s “romance.” The difference? Ygritte & Jon developed through dialogue – the teasing, the banter, the arguing… It was more wordplay than sex play that made their romance believable – and her death heartbreaking. By contrast, Jon knocked on Dany’s door, she opened it, and then they started going at it without saying a word.

    I suppose there was source material to work with when scripting Jon & Ygritte?

  259. Tron79,

    In the show, Jon wasn’t going for the idea of killing Dany until Tyrion brought up Jon’s sisters.

    Well, Jon still tried pleading with Dany, tried getting her to change her mind. Kit Harington explains in one of the DVD specials that, “Jon doesn’t know he’s going to betray Dany — until right at the end,” and that his decision to kill Dany was fueled by a number of reasons but that final thing that pushed him over was his sisters.

    But I don’t think he would have done it otherwise. From what I recall, he was still thinking of Dany as his queen until then. Yes Tyrion was trying to be persuasive, but until Tyrion brought up his sisters, Jon wasn’t budging. In the end his loyalty to his Stark family was more than his loyalty to his Targaryen family. I felt his inner struggle was more about his Stark loyalties vs. his Targaryen loyalties and less about saving the rest of the world from Dany’s tyranny.

    I think this issue would have come to a head eventually and Jon would be forced to take action against Dany because I don’t think, under any circumstance, he can let her (or anyone) burn the world and not for the sake of loyalty or honor.

    I don’t think it was really a matter of loyalty vs. loyalty. Jon has been willing to break oaths before, commit taboos (break sacred guest right to kill Mance), forsake his own honor and commit betrayals — and for far less than what Dany did. I think Jon was balking because significant personal feeling figured into this — on both sides.

    Even if she agreed to spared his sisters, I think Jon would have had to kill Dany if she was determined to continue. I think the matter of Jon’s sisters forced the urgency of Jon’s choice and localized the issue but I think he really still had hope Dany’s mind could be changed. He wanted to believe the war was done, Dany had stopped, he wanted to find sense in Dany’s actions, that this was a one-time thing and she won’t do it again.

    However, when Jon saw Dany justifying her choices and her actions, he got more and more upset over the answers she was giving him. And he made his decision when he saw she wasn’t backing down.

    I can understand if you saw this differently. I think GRRM wants to explore the tension between Jon’s Stark roots and new Targaryen family, so I wouldn’t doubt if this becomes part of the book scene where he has to decide to do the same thing as the show.

    There might be tension Jon feels with this but I believe his final choice, the final test for his character, I think it needs to be more than that.

    Jon says in the books:

    “I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.”

    And he’s often faced with choices of loyalty to his family vs. loyalty to the Watch often. But it’s love that makes the choice particularly brutal for him, more than honor or loyalty. And if there’s love on both sides, I think that’s what will make it feel impossible moreso than loyalty can.

  260. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    With Jon and Ygritte, they were thrown together with just the two of them for a number of episodes. There was a constant sexual cat and mouse game going on. So for me as a fan, I didn’t really buy Jon and Dany together, and that had a domino effect that wasn’t just one episode. Since I never really bought their relationship, I didn’t feel as much when Jon decided he had to kill Dany.

    I hear you. I was not invested in Jon & Dany’s “romance.” The difference? Ygritte & Jon developed through dialogue – the teasing, the banter, the arguing… It was more wordplay than sex play that made their romance believable – and her death heartbreaking. By contrast, Jon knocked on Dany’s door, she opened it, and then they started going at it without saying a word.

    I suppose there was source material to work with when scripting Jon & Ygritte?

    Yes there is definitely great source material with Jon and Ygritte in the books. I even liked Ygritte’s crooked teeth 🦷 in the books. She had some physical differences to Rose but still had that fiery red hair.

  261. Tron79: Yes there is definitely great source material with Jon and Ygritte in the books. I even liked Ygritte’s crooked teeth 🦷 in the books. She had some physical differences to Rose but still had that fiery red hair.

    I agree 🙂 And that even though Ygritte wasn’t pretty in a conventional sense, Jon found her prettier as he fell in love with her more.

    “At a lord’s court the girl would never have been considered anything but common, he knew. She had a round peasant face, a pug nose, and slightly crooked teeth, and her eyes were too far apart. Jon had noticed all that the first time he’d seen her, when his dirk had been at her throat. Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn’t seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling… well, that stirred some things as well.”

  262. Adrianacandle: I agree 🙂 And that even though Ygritte wasn’t pretty in a conventional sense, Jon found her prettier as he fell in love with her more.

    Thanks for the quotes. I totally agree. These descriptions made Ygritte real and I could feel Jon falling in love with her. When GRRM would point out Ygritte’s crooked teeth several times it was almost a term of endearment.

  263. Tron79: Thanks for the quotes. I totally agree. These descriptions made Ygritte real and I could feel Jon falling in love with her. When GRRM would point out Ygritte’s crooked teeth several times it was almost a term of endearment.

    Yeah, or when Jon notices the warmth of Ygritte’s smile despite her crooked teeth 🙂 For me, that feels like even traits that aren’t considered so conventionally pretty fall away (or are made prettier) as one gets to know somebody for their character or spirit — like noticing Ygritte’s warmth or the way her hair lights up in firelight, despite it being a tangled mess.

  264. Part 1 of 2: Prelude and Disclaimer

    Musical Interlude
    Sansa Stark Dedication

    Caveat ⚠️

    Before I post the dedicated song, I thought I should disclose that it kind of relates to this scene in S8e4 which I found troubling:

    S8e4, Sansa & Sandor (2:11 long)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfFU1YmxQW4

    —-
    I wrote about my perceptions a few days ago. Here are some excerpts:

    (on June 26, 2020 at 6:41 am):

    “I was turned off by Sansa’s speech to Sandor in S8e4, i.e., that she’d still be a little bird were it not for LF, Ramsey and all the abuse she had to endure. Many fans and critics are divided on this. I for one thought it played into a horrible and overused “rape made me a stronger person” cliche. I also find the notion of empowerment through suffering to be boneheaded and lazy. (Girls and women can evolve in ways other than through surviving torture and abuse.)…

    “My problem is that I think I may have found the perfect song for Sansa, but it plays into that trope I find offensive. Maybe it is not even my place to criticize it. If a woman sings about it, who am I to question it? …..”

    ———————————

    (on June 26, 2020 at 8:28 am):

    “I am not a shrink either. To me it’s common sense that enduring physical or emotional trauma is not a good thing. Surviving it and moving past it is laudable. Better to not have it happen at all.

    “I don’t know any women who’d say abuse was worth it, or that all in all it was a positive experience.

    “I have never heard an abuse survivor say she is thankful that it happened or else she’d still be naive and innocent. Unfortunately, that’s how I perceived Sansa’s dialogue in that scene….”

    [cont. in Part 2]

  265. Ten Bears,

    I was wondering… do you take suggestions for songs? (I don’t want to step on your toes! I have a suggestion for a song that might suit Sansa… but I don’t want to interfere! I really enjoy your musical interludes, I think they’re kind of like a musical education for me, and I think they say a lot about a person’s interpretation of a character in pretty unique and creative ways 🙂 )

  266. Part 2 of 2
    ⚠️ See “Disclaimer” in 1:18 am Comment

    Musical Interlude
    Dedication to Sansa Stark (S8e4 + S7e7)

    Christina Aguilera
    Fighter” (2002) music video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PstrAfoMKlc

    ———
    “Fighter” (Live, 2010) 4:11 long

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmR2OTC0gfA

    ————
    Lyrics – Excerpts

    🎼 ”Well I thought I knew you,
    thinkin’ that you were true.
    Guess I couldn’t trust,
    called your bluff, time is up,
    ‘Cause I’ve had enough.
    You were there by my side,
    always down for the ride,
    But your joyride just came down in flames,
    Because your greed sold me out of shame.🎶

    🎶”After all of the stealing and cheating,
    You probably think that I hold resentment for you,
    But oh no, you’re wrong
    Because if it wasn’t for all that you tried to do,
    I wouldn’t know just how capable I am to pull through.🎶
    So I want to say thank you, because it

    🎼 “Makes me that much stronger,
    Makes me work a little bit harder,
    It makes me that much wiser,
    So thanks for making me a fighter.
    Made me learn a little bit faster,
    Made my skin a little bit thicker,
    Makes me that much smarter,
    So thanks for making me a fighter.🎵

    🎶”Never saw it coming,
    All of your backstabbing,
    Just so you could cash in
    on a good thing before I realized your game.
    I heard you’re going around
    Playing the victim now
    But don’t even begin
    Feeling I’m the one to blame
    ‘Cause you dug your own grave. 🎶

    🎶”After all of the fights and the lies because you wanted to haunt me,
    But that won’t work anymore,
    No more, oh no, it’s over.
    ‘Cause if it wasn’t for all of your torture,
    I wouldn’t know how to be this way now,
    And never back down….
    ”🎵

  267. Adrianacandle:
    Tron79,

    Well, Jon still tried pleading with Dany, tried getting her to change her mind. Kit Harington explains in one of the DVD specials that, “Jon doesn’t know he’s going to betray Dany — until right at the end,” and that his decision to kill Dany was fueled by a number of reasons but that final thing that pushed him over was his sisters.

    I think this issue would have come to a head eventually and Jon would be forced to take action against Dany because I don’t think, under any circumstance, he can let her (or anyone) burn the world and not for the sake of loyalty or honor.

    I don’t think it was really a matter of loyalty vs. loyalty. Jon has been willing to break oaths before, commit taboos (break sacred guest right to kill Mance), forsake his own honor and commit betrayals — and for far less than what Dany did. I think Jon was balking because significant personal feeling figured into this — on both sides.

    Even if she agreed to spared his sisters, I think Jon would have had to kill Dany if she was determined to continue. I think the matter of Jon’s sisters forced the urgency of Jon’s choice and localized the issue but I think he really still had hope Dany’s mind could be changed. He wanted to believe the war was done, Dany had stopped, he wanted to find sense in Dany’s actions, that this was a one-time thing and she won’t do it again.

    However, when Jon saw Dany justifying her choices and her actions, he got more and more upset over the answers she was giving him. And he made his decision when he saw she wasn’t backing down.

    There might be tension Jon feels with this but I believe his final choice, the final test for his character, I think it needs to be more than that.

    Jon says in the books:

    And he’s often faced with choices of loyalty to his family vs. loyalty to the Watch often. But it’s love that makes the choice particularly brutal for him, more than honor or loyalty. And if there’s love on both sides, I think that’s what will make it feel impossible moreso than loyalty can.

    You make some good points as usual. I think a big part is that I just didn’t feel his love for Dany enough in the show. As I said the chemistry wasn’t there for me. I did feel Jon’s loyalty to his queen. After she lost her dragon to save him, Jon made his pledge to her. It felt more like loyalty than love. I suppose Jon Understood Dany’s speech enough to know she was planning on liberating Winterfell. And yes, Dany did not answer Jon’s questions to his liking but did he need to kill her? Was there a better way to accomplish the same goals?. He could have claimed his throne. He could have built up a decent size army. I’m not sure if Drogon would have killed him in battle. He was the rightful king of the 7 kingdoms and he never staked his claim. His birthright could have saved Dany’s life, but Jon didn’t want any part of it. I still think Arya could have done it. She could see clearly that Dany had to die and Jon would have been tortured by having to do it himself.

  268. Adrianacandle:
    Ten Bears,

    I was wondering… do you take suggestions for songs? (I don’t want to step on your toes! I have a suggestion for a song that might suit Sansa… but I don’t want to interfere! I really enjoy your musical interludes, I think they’re kind of like a musical education for me, and I think they say a lot about a person’s interpretation of a character in pretty unique and creative ways 🙂 )

    Oh sure! I’d love to take suggestions. The challenge I’ve found is to find the best audio quality videos on YouTube; plus I like to include a live performance as well.

    And I’m always up for a good song in any genre. If it can somehow relate to GoT, so much the better.

    P.S. I’ve got a more…lighthearted song dedication to Sansa. Maybe I should wait til tomorrow…

  269. Tron79,

    You make some good points as usual. I think a big part is that I just didn’t feel his love for Dany enough in the show. As I said the chemistry wasn’t there for me.

    And I think that’s understandable. As discussed before, chemistry is subjective and I don’t think there was enough time spent on them being a couple to make their relationship feel as weighty as it needed to before obstacle after obstacle started hitting them (it was a major obstacle each episode). I sort of felt the same way about Jon and Arya: Arya just felt like another sibling to Jon, not his most beloved sibling — even though D&D talk about Arya being Jon’s closest sibling in interviews.

    I did feel Jon’s loyalty to his queen. After she lost her dragon to save him, Jon made his pledge to her. It felt more like loyalty than love. I suppose Jon Understood Dany’s speech enough to know she was planning on liberating Winterfell.

    I felt that it was love more than loyalty induced him into make the decision, per the script direction, but that’s totally YMMV. It seemed to me a decision driven by emotion anyway.

    Yes, I think Jon did understand the Winterfell part but that wasn’t really enough to push him to a decision still and I think that’s more than loyalty because again, Jon was been willing forsake loyalty, honor, the whole gamut for less in the past. He came up with the plan to assassinate Mance himself, a man he liked, and commit a violation against sacred guest right (which is pretty serious). A big part of his arc is about defending the realms of men… and how that conflicts with love.

    Jon still tried making excuses for Dany, trying to find sense in her actions, when Tyrion was trying to open his eyes as to what Dany had become. And Jon was saying stuff like, “The war is over now.” I think Jon really had hope Dany was done.

    This line from the finale script:

    Jon: You can. You can forgive all of
    them. Make them see that they made a mistake. Make them understand.

    [Looking at her, his need to believe is almost overwhelming.]

    I don’t think he’d be willing to do this for many others, especially after they demolished a city (and still feel killing her wasn’t right) — particularly since Jon had far more easily forsaken his own honor, his loyalties, his own life, all to protect the realm.

    And yes, Dany did not answer Jon’s questions to his liking but did he need to kill her? Was there a better way to accomplish the same goals?. He could have claimed his throne. He could have built up a decent size army. I’m not sure if Drogon would have killed him in battle. He was the rightful king of the 7 kingdoms and he never staked his claim. His birthright could have saved Dany’s life, but Jon didn’t want any part of it.

    Considering Dany thought what she did was right and couldn’t see the problem with what she did and wanted to do (redefining death as liberation), I think the idea that this was Jon’s only option. Dany had all the power — a full-grown dragon, armies, she had Yara’s loyalty and the Iron Islanders — Dany can kind of do whatever she wants. She was legitimately queen via right-of-conquest. And I don’t think Drogon (or Dany’s armies) would stand for Dany being imprisoned. And Dany could easily imprison Jon and carry on her merry way, burning the rest of the world. I don’t think the North would be able to match her.

    I still think Arya could have done it. She could see clearly that Dany had to die and Jon would have been tortured by having to do it himself.

    Personally, while I would have preferred that, I think her assassination was supposed to be a point of conflict. Arya really wouldn’t have much of a conflict — well, perhaps beyond the way it would impact Jon. But I don’t know if that’s enough?

    In some ways, and as much as I hope theories are true that this won’t be happening in the books, I think there are bits of foreshadowing hinting at this, like the nightmares Jon has of Ygritte:

    Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

    And I wonder if this is setting up Jon killing Dany -_-

  270. Ten Bears: Oh sure! I’d love to take suggestions. The challenge I’ve found is to find the best audio quality videos on YouTube; plus I like to include a live performance as well.

    And I’m always up for a good song in any genre. If it can somehow relate to GoT, so much the better.

    P.S. I’ve got a more…lighthearted song dedication to Sansa. Maybe I should wait til tomorrow…

    It’s a Broadway show song…. but what about Green Finch and Linnett Bird from Sweeney Todd? Has a bird and cage motif 🙂

  271. Ten Bears,

    Here’s another version of the same song (but it seems to be a different version, a longer version with more lyrics added).

    However, the audio isn’t great on this one (it seems to be a home recording without specialized audio equipment), resulting in the high notes playing as pretty piercing without proper recording equipment (the singer is very talented but her voice goes beyond the recording device’s capabilities).

  272. Adrianacandle,

    That’s a pretty song! I actually liked the second version better than the soundtrack album version.

    It’s also got some lyrics with a Sansa & Sandor night of the Battle of Blackwater vibe…

    🎵Have you decided it’s
    Safer in cages,
    Singing when you’re told?
    🦢

  273. Ten Bears: That’s a pretty song! I actually liked the second version better than the soundtrack album version.

    It’s also got some lyrics with a Sansa & Sandor night of the Battle of Blackwater vibe…

    🎵Have you decided it’s
    Safer in cages,
    Singing when you’re told? 🦢

    Yeah! And I prefer the second version too — it’s just the audio quality that sucks. However, I prefer the way it’s sung and I think it has a bit more emotion in it.

    On the other hand, the soundtrack version sounds more like what I’d imagine Sansa’s voice to be. She sounds a bit younger, sweeter.

    (I love Sweeney Todd’s songs in general — but I am a sucker for musicals 🙁 I spent 6 months remaking Glinda’s costume from Wicked and wore it out in freezing cold Banff weather.)

  274. Adrianacandle,

    ”Jon still tried making excuses for Dany, trying to find sense in her actions, when Tyrion was trying to open his eyes as to what Dany had become.”

    F*ckin’ Tyrion. What’d he say during his “confession” at the Vale? Something like: “I’m not good at violence, but I’m good at having other people do violence for me.”

  275. Ten Bears: F*ckin’ Tyrion. What’d he say during his “confession” at the Vale? Something like: “I’m not good at violence, but I’m good at having other people do violence for me.”

    Well… ultimately, Tyrion did get to live thanks to Dany being assassinated…

    (But I’d like to add his Vale “confession” scene to my list of favourite moments — and Catelyn’s reactions)

  276. Adrianacandle,

    Correction to previous post:

    * (But I’d like to add his Vale “confession” scene to my list of favourite moments — and *Bronn’s reactions)

  277. Ten Bears,

    Tron79,

    Off topic: While looking for the interview in which Maisie Williams mentions watching Jenna Marbles, I just came across this new interview (as of a day ago) with her about the new TV series she’ll be starring in that I’d think you guys would like to see 🙂

    No GoT stuff but some answers about how she’d fare as a survivalist and doing her own stunts.

  278. Adrianacandle,

    Argh! The linked site with the Maisie Williams interview has one of those “Accept Cookies” pop ups obscuring the page.

    I’ll have to wait until the interview appears elsewhere. I’ve been following the progress of Maisie’s new series, “Two Weeks to Live.” From the trailer posted a couple of months, it looks like it’s going to be fun.

    Only problem: Last time I checked, it will only be airing on SkyTV, and not in the U.S.

  279. “Way way back in 1999, when I was deep in the writing of A STORM OF
    SWORDS, I was averaging about 150 pages of manuscript a month. I fear I
    shall never recapture that pace again. ” –George RR Martin (georgerrmartin.com) –Not-A-Blog, “Writing, Reading, Writing”, June 23, 2020.

    Yeah…and whose fault is that?!

  280. Ten Bears: + Clip #2 S4e8 (1:07 long)
    Sansa appears at top of the stairs with sexy new look. LF geeks out. (at 0:37 – 1:07):
    Sansa: “Shall we go?”

    I think this is a great scene. When I first saw it, I was so excited!

  281. Tron79,

    The de-characterization of Jon Snow in the show is huge and it resulted in painting season 8 Jon Snow in bleak colors (before that the character was salvageable).

    Book Jon Snow didn’t sleep with Ygritte because he loved her, or because he couldn’t resist her, but because he was asked by Mance to display his loyalty; Ygritte stepped in, declared that she was sleeping with him for saving him from being executed as traitor to the Free Folk. They both lie that they sleep together and Jon that night truly does it because otherwise he’d blow his cover. He even thinks he was framed -or sth like that- and he was kind of angry and uncomfortable that he had to do it -he considers himself to be an oathbreaker and a turncloak but he never wavers as to where he belonged (hence his “happy exile” in 8.6 makes absolutely no sense). He stays with the Freefolk and enjoys Ygritte’s graces and the cave, which comes later (unlike the show where it was their first “romantic” time) while all the time he thinks of how to leave without dying; he never stops contemplating about it. Ygritte’s savage insticts and warlike nature are appaling to Jon and no matter how he’d like it to be otherwise, Ygritte would say something to remind him “of the wall between their worlds”. He wants to save her, but he knows she’s going to die if she attacks Castle Black. He suspects the arrow he got in the leg was hers, but he wasn’t even around when she died in CB and he didn’t see her die. Yes, he came to “love” her after they started sleeping together but that’s affection coming from s*x, not the other way round. He thinks that “it was wrong to love her, wrong to leave her”, because with the first he broke his vows, and with the second he could have saved her if he stayed with her. Jon’s first instinct is to save people, and this applies to Ygritte as well, and the line “he was wrong to love her, wrong to leave her” encapsulates his guilt, not his love (that’s my book reading). It’s hardly the epic romance displayed on screen.

    In the books it seems to be a preparation for Daenerys. Will Jon fall for another lady with violent instincts? Rather not, otherwise he’d really have learned nothing at all. Book readers and show watchers who want these both to be epic romances are swayed, I think, by the screen adaptation that didn’t know exactly what to do with the heros/villains of the story because they are so grey in the books.

    With Jon, they did another “mistake”, namely, they didn’t show on screen Jon’s refusal to Stannis “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa”. Not because of the partiallity it shows to Sansa -it doesn’t, at this point Jon believes his brothers are all dead- but because it shows, once again, his weakness for his family. Jon thinks that his little brothers stand to inherit Winterfell, Robb, Bran and Rickon, and then come the girls, Sansa and Arya, and he decides that he can’t take that away from them. The book will explore his attachment to the Starks much better, but I think -this is my opinion only- there won’t be much wavering when it comes to Dany. Daenerys shall be Jon’s duty because he will have pledged to her, and his family shall be his love. He even dies for FArya, so how is it to be expected that he will ever betray his family following Dany blindly? Ignoring his abhorrence for fire and what it does to people? Book Jon will never defend Dany for wiping out an entire city by sowing fire above their heads, neither will he discuss it, with Tyrion or with Dany. “Yes, honey, you just murdered half a million innocents; let’s forget all about it now, shall we? Let’s put the dragon to rest, he’s done enough”. Sorry, that’s a bad soap.

    I do believe though that they were going for a more complicated story in seasons 7-8. In the original plans two scenes were cut: Daenerys ordering Jon to come to her room after the council in 7.7, which takes away Jon’s agency (she’s a queen, he was laid down his crown) and her lamenting about the killing of Viseryon by his bed, which showed that she didn’t care to fight for the North, she wanted revenge from the NK for her dragon -hence Jon lays his crown on her lap realizing that this queen needs more swaying for fighting for them, for securing her help.
    Deleting these two scenes was a game-changer for the “epic” romance. First, because the audience understood that Daenerys “sacrificed” her dragon (everyone conveniently forgot that it was her resistance to help the North in the first place that caused the Wall to fall) and that she was that selfless person the audience perceived her to be (despite the distrurbing “burn them all” proclamations throughout GoT), and second, that Jon was so “in love” and swayed by the “sacrifice” that he actually did resign from office (inexplicably after she has pledged to fight for them), thereby betraying the North and his siblings; in fact, it was he who visited her in her room, because he was in love, not because he was a subject who was ordered by the queen. [the first planned sequence was she laments her dragon’s death-he lays down his crown-she promises to fight for them]
    I think that these changes happened late in season 7. Perhaps even the scenes were filmed and deleted pretty much like Cersei’s miscarriage that doesn’t exist in any DVD or on the internet.
    The problem was that the rest of the story stayed pretty much as it was.

    Would the guy who pointed out office by election against hereditary right deliver his title just because he was so “in love”? Wouldn’t he at least discuss it with the lords? And why would he say to the lords in 8.1 that it was “his crown or the North” when on screen so such dilemma existed?
    Loving the wrong woman (I remind Jaimie-Cersei, Robb-Talisa/Jeyne Westerling, Tyrion/Shae) amounts to nothing, it’s just something to be repeated by another protagonist? Are male figures of GoT/ASoIaF really that dumb? Loving the wrong woman over and over and over and over? [if it is so, then no wonder Westeros ends up being ruled by a woman and the 3ER; others are not to be trusted]
    Does Jon’s threat to Melisandre for the burning of Shireen mean nothing? He’d still fall in love for one with such violent instincts -such as those he experienced on the beach of Dragonstone (she threatens silently to burn KL and threatens Tyrion’s family)- forgetting his aversion to unnecessary violence?
    Would the guy whose’s weakness for Sansa as established in three (!) scenes (I remind “I’ll protect you I promise” scene, beating Ramsay’s head to a pulp, choking LF) feel conflicted about killing one who has been threatening Sansa in each and every episode of season 8?

    Hence, imho, this was no romance (or I’ll burn all my Jane Austen books). It was ambivalent at best, failed attempt at worse, depending on the viewer’s perception of the on-screen adaptation. I don’t believe that there will be a romance in the books (but there will probably be some s*x).

  282. Ten Bears,
    Tron79,

    I am still confused about Dany’s motivations and state of mind when she suddenly went on a carpet bombing rampage after the city had already surrendered.

    Back to “The Bells” episode again, I was confused when I first saw it, because I didn’t get why she didn’t go straight for the Red Keep. I totally understood that she wasn’t going to let Cersei get away with it, but I didn’t understand why she did a serpentine maneuver burning down everyone on the streets along the way.
    In the end, I had to take this as more strategic than rage. D&D seemed to indicate in the behind the scenes that it was a tipping point for Dany. But to me, I heard her saying that she needed people to fear her and mercy would not be her weakness.

    Earlier in S8 — I can’t remember exactly which episode — when Dany is discussing options, she says outright that she doesn’t want her enemies to think they’ll be able to hide behind human shields.

    Later, she gives Cersei the choice to surrender, making it clear that she will do some very nasty things if Cersei refuses. Either ignoring Dany’s threat or deliberately calling her bluff, Cersei refuses to surrender, and she immediately carries out her own threat by beheading Dany’s best friend.

    So, Dany’s decision to nuke KL is strategic. It was a deterrent to future enemies intending to use human shields. And for the sake of her own credibility, she also had to follow through on the threat she’d made to Cersei.

    Dany had exhibited psychopathy during a series of escalating incidents in the story, right from the start. But she didn’t nuke KL because she was psychotic, delusional, or generally insane. She was none of those things *at that specific point in time*. It was the cognitive dissonance caused by the act of committing genocide that finally pushed her sanity over the edge, because her horrific actions completely contradicted her self-image of being a fundamentally “good” person. So she was indeed visibly psychotic, delusional, and yes insane *after* nuking KL. Along with torching the city, Dany ended up torching her sanity too, with her own hands.

  283. I’d like to recommend a couple of recent TV shows starring GoT alumni:

    + “Gangs of London” is basically a mixture of the Godfather movies and some incredible Bourne-style action scenes. Really gripping and entertaining stuff if you like this sort of thing. Billionaire global crime syndicates and so on. It has an ensemble cast, but Michelle Fairley and Lucian Msamati (Salladhor Saan) are two of the main characters. They’re pretty meaty roles and the characters are, shall we say, quite different to Catelyn and Salladhor. The charismatic Msamati’s role in particular is much bigger than it was on GoT; as expected, the guy is fantastic here.

    You’ll also recognise David Bradley (Walder Frey) and Ian Beattie (Meryn Trant) in roles that are smaller but still play important parts in the story.

    I was a bit sceptical during the first two episodes, but from Ep3 it really takes off. It’s very cinematic from that point too; very picturesque London skyscrapers, luxury mansions etc. Some really unpredictable plot twists as well. Also keep in mind that the storyline isn’t entirely linear; events in some episodes are supposed to occur in parallel with things that already happened in previous episodes (including important characters that you may have only briefly glimpsed earlier), so you’ll have to stay really focused.

    Keeping this spoiler-free: GoT fans will recognise one particular scene later on that has some interesting “tweaks”.

    Some viewers have complained that aspects of the show are unrealistic. However, if you’ve read about real-life international crime syndicates operating in London, a lot of the things portrayed in the show are actually true to life (disturbing as that may be). Some of the shocking killings depicted in the show also happened to real-life shady crime-linked financiers/businessmen in London in recent years.

    The show recently finished its first season run in Britain; it’s available on Sky, so I’m not sure how those of you overseas will be able to see it, but I definitely recommend it if it ever becomes available there.

    + SyFy’s “Project Blue Book” is great fun for sci-fi fans. Aiden Gillen is one of the two main leads. It’s initially jarring seeing “Littlefinger” in a very different incarnation, but you get used to it. The show is a dramatised version of the real-life Blue Book initiative, and the primary regular cast is based on real people (albeit with some aspects obviously modified). It’s much harder-edged than you’d expect. There’s a distinct pre-Mad Men “noir” vibe too (it’s set in the early 50s). Acting, production values, cinematography etc are all really good. Plenty of charismatic regulars, especially the guy playing the other main lead. It’s pretty good from the start, but Season 2 is noticeably better in all aspects. And again without wishing to give away any spoilers, you’ll find yourself grinning and nodding approvingly when a certain real-life historical figure suddenly turns up near the end of Season 2. The show cleverly begins to hint at links to other alleged real-life conspiracies.

    The show hasn’t been renewed by its current network — because they’ve decided to focus on other things, not because there were any issues with ratings/audience numbers or the quality — but S3 will probably turn up on Netflix or Amazon or something if all goes well.

  284. Jai:
    Ten Bears,
    Tron79,

    Earlier in S8 — I can’t remember exactly which episode — when Dany is discussing options, she says outright that she doesn’t want her enemies to think they’ll be able to hide behind human shields.

    Later, she gives Cersei the choice to surrender, making it clear that she will do some very nasty things if Cersei refuses. Either ignoring Dany’s threat or deliberately calling her bluff, Cersei refuses to surrender, and she immediately carries out her own threat by beheading Dany’s best friend.

    So, Dany’s decision to nuke KL is strategic. It was a deterrent to future enemies intending to use human shields. And for the sake of her own credibility, she also had to follow through on the threat she’d made to Cersei.

    Dany had exhibited psychopathy during a series of escalating incidents in the story, right from the start. But she didn’t nuke KL because she was psychotic, delusional, or generally insane. She was none of those things *at that specific point in time*. It was the cognitive dissonance caused by the act of committing genocide that finally pushed her sanity over the edge, because her horrific actions completely contradicted her self-image of being a fundamentally “good” person. So she was indeed visibly psychotic, delusional, and yes insane *after* nuking KL. Along with torching the city, Dany ended up torching her sanity too, with her own hands.

    I find your analysis thought provoking when you said, “It was the cognitive dissonance caused by the act of committing genocide that finally pushed her sanity over the edge, because her horrific actions completely contradicted her self-image of being a fundamentally “good” person.”

    I agree that her actions were strategic and were setup by the scenes you mentioned. I hadn’t thought of her going over the edge because of the genocide she committed. I think most people have said said she went over the edge in a fit of rage and then committed the genocide. From my prior posts you know I don’t really agree with them. I’m not sure if I totally agree she every went over the edge at all. I think she began to believe in her own propaganda that she was the god figure and she knew what was best for everyone. I felt she was embracing her true fire and blood, and she truly believed she knew what was best for the everyone. Your interpretation is more hopeful that she had some humanity left in her. I do like the idea that it put her over the edge to see what kind of person she had become.

  285. Adrianacandle,

    In reply to one of your comments about Jon breaking his oath, it made me think of Ned not taking Renly up on his offer to overthrow Cersei. Book Jon has a way to justify his actions to break his vows. Why couldn’t Ned have had the same flexibility? When Renly offered to take overthrow Cersei, Ned just needed an advisor to tell him,

    “Just make it clear with Renly that he is just a placeholder and that he will give up his throne to Stannis once Stannis returns”.

    Of course Ned would know Renly may never actually give up his throne, but it would take Ned’s honor off the hook if Renly agreed to it. Without giving away spoilers in the book, Jon was thinking he wasn’t violating his vows because of an idea that Melisandre put in his head. It was just a different way of thinking about it that made it OK in his head.

    I’ll check back and respond more later. Gotta get off the computer for now…

  286. Jai,

    Tron79,

    Jai: Earlier in S8 — I can’t remember exactly which episode — when Dany is discussing options, she says outright that she doesn’t want her enemies to think they’ll be able to hide behind human shields.

    Are you thinking of the 8×04 war council scene? I think her exact quote is: “The longer I leave my enemies alone, the stronger they become.”

    I think she didn’t want to wait any longer before setting up her own attack, afraid Cersei would be accumulating power while she and her forces recovered from the battle against the dead.

    For my part, I didn’t get the impression that Dany’s decision to burn KL was strategic (especially based on what D&D said about her decision being spontaneous). It seems to me she had built up all this stuff inside her (from what she had to endure growing up as a result of having to live in exile, on the run from Robert’s assassins, and feeling the throne and the Red Keep were taken from her family — to all of the recent losses she’s experienced), part of her snapped, and she went to town on the city, taking it out on everything and everyone she could see.

    However, I do like this idea of cognative dissonance and the act of genocide pushing her sanity over and maybe that could be how her motives transition into her delusional belief that what she had done was good…

  287. Tron79,

    In reply to one of your comments about Jon breaking his oath, it made me think of Ned not taking Renly up on his offer to overthrow Cersei. Book Jon has a way to justify his actions to break his vows.

    In the books, I don’t think Renly makes Ned that offer. I think that’s a show-only thing. Renly is out of town by the time Ned fudged Robert’s will and revealed to Cersei that he knows the truth about Joffrey, Mrycella, and Tommen. The next morning, Ned calls the small council together to reveal the contents of Robert’s will: that he [Ned] is to act of regent until Robert’s heir comes of age. After this, they confront Cersei with Robert’s will, who tears it up.

    Or are you talking about the show?

    With Jon, I think he has more flexibility than Ned. He wants to be honorable but it’s not the most important thing to him. I don’t think Jon always had a way of justifying going against his vows in the book, he feels it pretty heavily and in his mind, knows he’s viewed as an oathbreaker and a turncloak as a result of undertaking the mission Qhorin Halfhand ordered him to in infiltrating the wildlings. And I think he sort of internalized it:

    Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

    But in relation to helping out Stannis, yes, I think there was some justification there but he knew he was treading in muddy waters:

    The Night’s Watch takes no part, a voice said, but another replied, Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder.

    With Arya, I think there was more of a struggle. Jon initially resisted helping Arya — much to his own anguish — because his vows demanded he put aside his blood kin but when Melisandre makes him that offer (he can keep his oath by allowing her to send Mance to rescue his sister), it was an offer Jon couldn’t resist.

    A choice that ultimately led to Jon’s downfall, risking the tenuous peace he forged at the Wall, and everything he’d done to prepare the defense of the realm against the Others… 🙂

  288. Jai,

    Thanks for the suggestions, views, and write-ups!!

    I’ve been watching Snowpiercer on Netflix and while it’s received mixed reviews so far, I’ve been really enjoying it (I look forward to it on Monday nights when I let myself get a small thin-crust pizza from Dominoes because it’s 50% off Mondays!). It stars Jennifer Connelly and I’ve been finding a lot of the plots pretty intriguing.

    For those unfamiliar with the premise of Snowpiercer: it’s a post-apocalyptic dystopian series (was also a 2013 movie and a 1982 graphic novel). From Wikipedia: “[it] follows the passengers of the Snowpiercer, a gigantic, perpetually moving train that circles the globe carrying the remnants of humanity seven years after the world becomes a frozen wasteland. The series questions class warfare, social injustice, and the politics of survival.”

    And I love dystopian series 🙂 I’d recommend giving it a try!

  289. I have a laptop which works now. Let’s hope I don’t do anything daft like I did with its predecessor (which I dropped). I’m a bit zonked out after a zoom meeting now but will probably return when I’m more alert and therefore more able to make an appropriate comment. Adriana, in the UK I feel as though I’m LIVING in a dystopian novel at present.

    Second edit – I put ‘it’s’ instead of ‘its’ at first. King Stannis would not approve.

  290. Dame of Mercia:
    I have a laptop which works now. Let’s hope I don’t do anything daft like I did with its predecessor (which I dropped).I’m a bit zonked out after a zoom meeting now but will probably return when I’m more alert and therefore more able to make an appropriate comment.Adriana,in the UK I feel as though I’m LIVING in a dystopian novel at present.

    Second edit – I put ‘it’s’ instead of ‘its’ at first.King Stannis would not approve.

    Living in a dystopian novel — that doesn’t sound promising 🙁

    As to your laptop troubles, you’ll find yourself in good company with me (and I believe I’ve made enough typos in this thread to make a good sized post on their own!). My dad doesn’t call me ‘Tasha the Destroyer’ for nothing (I’ve broken many laptops, many phones. He says electronics quiver in fear when they feel my presence looking…)

    Have a good rest!! 🙂

  291. Jai,

    Great comment. I’ve always felt burning KL was a conscious strategic move (this does not exclude that emotions can bear on decisions), but I was perplexed by the delusional “free the world” next stance. I really like your idea.

  292. Jai,

    + “Gangs of London” is basically a mixture of the Godfather movies and some incredible Bourne-style action scenes.

    Something for fellow Brits here: The show has some aspects of “Line of Duty” too, but with bigger implications and handled much better than LoD’s recent drop in quality.

  293. Tron79,

    I think most people have said said she went over the edge in a fit of rage and then committed the genocide. From my prior posts you know I don’t really agree with them.

    I don’t agree with them either. Immediately before Dany began torching the city, she was shown as obviously struggling with the decision to pull the trigger.

    It’s clear enough on the show, but I’m sure this will be much clearer in the books, as with much else.

    I think she began to believe in her own propaganda that she was the god figure and she knew what was best for everyone. I felt she was embracing her true fire and blood, and she truly believed she knew what was best for the everyone.

    Exactly right…but what’s being described here is classic “Malignant Narcissism”, a major psychiatric illness with significant psychopathic aspects.

    Adrianacandle,

    Are you thinking of the 8×04 war council scene? I think her exact quote is: “The longer I leave my enemies alone, the stronger they become.”

    It was one of those scenes, but that’s not the quote I was referring to. Dany pointedly says something about how she has no intention of letting her adversaries hide behind the civilian population. It’s a jarring statement because in hindsight it foreshadows exactly what Dany ends up doing to KL.

    AnnOther,

    Great comment. I’ve always felt burning KL was a conscious strategic move (this does not exclude that emotions can bear on decisions), but I was perplexed by the delusional “free the world” next stance. I really like your idea.

    Well, it all makes perfect sense, and in terms of real-world human psychology and behaviour it’s very accurate.

  294. One final point. As has been mentioned upthread, Dany’s POV chapters in the books depict her enemies as “cartoonishly evil”. The key thing here — even more so when you bear in mind Dany’s narcissism and latent psychopathy — is that Dany is an “unreliable narrator” in this context. Her adversaries in those chapters are not necessarily the way she perceives them to be at all.

    Assuming GRRM gets around to completing the final books, a writing “trick” he could use as we hurtle towards the climax is POV chapters involving (for example) Tyrion, Jon and Dany in exactly the same locations/situations and showing how much Dany’s perspective is distorted compared to the other two characters (especially during the attack on KL). It would be interesting stuff, especially as Dany’s psychological problems escalate, but potentially very dark too.

  295. I don’t think that we have to choose between emotional decision and conscious strategic move, because it was both.

    She said “let it be fear” which means she will rule using fear and terror, and we know that burnig cities and castles was always an option for her.

    But it is also clear that she was in a very bad emotional and mental state and that she would probably never make such a move if all those horrible things didn’t happen. Benioff himself said that.

  296. Ten Bears: “Tasha the Destroyer,” huh.

    (*Begins search for musical tributes*)

    😀 😀 😀 😀 :D!!!!!!!

    (*computer fan whirrs in trepidation*)

    :D!!!

  297. Jai,

    It was one of those scenes, but that’s not the quote I was referring to. Dany pointedly says something about how she has no intention of letting her adversaries hide behind the civilian population. It’s a jarring statement because in hindsight it foreshadows exactly what Dany ends up doing to KL.

    Ok! I can’t quite recall a scene in which Dany said she wouldn’t let her adversaries hide behind civilians but I’ll keep thinking/looking.

    One final point. As has been mentioned upthread, Dany’s POV chapters in the books depict her enemies as “cartoonishly evil”. The key thing here — even more so when you bear in mind Dany’s narcissism and latent psychopathy — is that Dany is an “unreliable narrator” in this context. Her adversaries in those chapters are not necessarily the way she perceives them to be at all.

    I hesitate to comment on real-world psychiatric disorders because I’m not formally educated in these areas so I could be wrong here. I’ll try to step cautiously into this arena (if there are any trained experts on this board, please correct me where I’m making inaccurate statements) As far as I know, as a layman, two traits of such disorders are lack of empathy and remorse as well as a tendency to lie. I don’t think these are true of Dany as she has demonstrated empathy, remorse, reflection, self-doubt (particularly in the books) and she doesn’t make it a habit to lie. Even with the show, D&D say this about Dany in Inside the Episode for 4×05:

    Dan Weiss: She’s driven by a kind of a deep empathy — a much deeper empathy than probably anybody else on the show. It’s something that makes her as charismatic as she is to people because they can sense the sincerity of it. Her empathy allows her to look at the people of Westeros and say ‘Why the hell would they ever follow me if I haven’t proven myself through my actions to be somebody worth following? Why would they let me rule if I hadn’t proven myself to be someone who has ruled well somewhere else?

    As a result, I don’t know if characterizing Dany as a psychopath would be quite accurate (but I don’t want to armchair diagnose because I don’t have formal training in this area).

    And could others be unreliable narrators too in their own chapters?

    Assuming GRRM gets around to completing the final books, a writing “trick” he could use as we hurtle towards the climax is POV chapters involving (for example) Tyrion, Jon and Dany in exactly the same locations/situations and showing how much Dany’s perspective is distorted compared to the other two characters (especially during the attack on KL). It would be interesting stuff, especially as Dany’s psychological problems escalate, but potentially very dark too.

    For my part, I think this would feel like a bit of a cheat to use a trick like this but I say that cautiously. It’s an interesting scenario you’re proposing but I’d rather this not be a “gotcha” scenario (if I’m understanding you correctly here).

  298. Adrianacandle,

    I do think D&D said things in inside the episode that are there to not spoil the show. I mean Benioff said that Dany will never be like her father, or something like that, and we know that wasn’t true.
    It’s interesting that they never talked about crucifixion of Masters in 4×04. Or her scene with Hizdahr in 4×06.

    They wanted to keep people in the dark.

  299. mau: I do think D&D said things in inside the episode that are there to not spoil the show. I mean Benioff said that Dany will never be like her father, or something like that, and we know that wasn’t true.
    It’s interesting that they never talked about crucifixion of Masters in 4×04. Or her scene with Hizdahr in 4×06.

    They wanted to keep people in the dark.

    But they also didn’t have to say these things, especially if they wanted to foreshadow and build up a path piece by piece to burning KL, even if it wasn’t obvious to most viewers. They could have not have said this at all and discussed the difficulties of conquering vs. ruling (challenges Dany was indeed facing) instead of calling Dany one of the most empathetic characters.

    Plus, in the books, Dany does feel genuine empathy and genuine remorse.

    I feel the problem with this argument is (not wanting to spoil the show, wanting to surprise us) is that I think it contradicts the idea that these things were properly foreshadowed and built up (asking viewers why they were surprised… if the idea was to surprise us?)

  300. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    I do think D&D said things in inside the episode that are there to not spoil the show. I mean Benioff said that Dany will never be like her father, or something like that, and we know that wasn’t true.
    It’s interesting that they never talked about crucifixion of Masters in 4×04. Or her scene with Hizdahr in 4×06.

    They wanted to keep people in the dark.

    And let’s not forget all those misleading statements how Sansa will be likely plotting against Jon in S7… then they had like two scenes and nothing more but clash of stubborn opinions that didn’t really “damage” their relationship.

  301. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    Yeah. I will research about that.

    But I do think this is a huge problem. They have this sense of power that is very dangerous. You would be shocked to see how many people still think that last season will be remade.

    We created a culture where if you whine enough online, if you review bomb games, shows and movies, write petitions and just in general create a lot of noise you will get what you want.

    And the biggest problem, these people lie all the time. And some of these lies are now accepted as truths and you can’t even debate them anymore.

    So when I see even this place turned into whine fest sometimes it is disappointing. Because no matter how respectful you are or nice or whatever I just don’t want to her D&D BAD no matter how eloquent or respectful it is.

    It’s been more than a year. It’s enough.

    This, this SO much! Complete summary why I actively avoid fandoms. Nothing, absolutely nothing healthy comes out of dwelling on negativity in my opinion.

  302. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: And let’s not forget all those misleading statements how Sansa will be likely plotting against Jon in S7… then they had like two scenes and nothing more but clash of stubborn opinions that didn’t really “damage” their relationship.

    I don’t recall D&D saying Sansa would be plotting against Jon, I think they said there’d be a hint of conflict and tension in their relationship — and there was. This was discussed in the commentary for 7×01:

    Jeremy Podeswa: Well, I think what’s great about these scenes too is that they give opportunities for these little character moments and there and also these scenes push the story forward in a very fundamental way so you’re tracking so many different things from out of last season and watching them progress into this new season. So chiefly here is the dynamic between Sansa and Jon and what’s going on between them and this slight power play and uh, a slight sort of questioning of Jon’s authority as King in the North.

    Gwendoline Christie: Well, it’s interesting as well, it’s a sibling relationship. To see that power shifting and to see that power shifting with a woman as well who’s younger. Often in those kinds of relationships, there’s often a sort of murderous quality hidden somewhere deeply in brother-sister relationships and I think it’s illustrated very well here.

    Likewise, there is tension between them with Jon being King in the North. From the script direction for 7×05 (via Vanity Fair):

    When Arya accuses Sansa of trying to placate the Northern lords to ensure they are on her side, the script explains: “Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.” Later, Sansa gets genuinely enraged by her sister’s constant accusations: “Now she grows angry, and when Sansa gets angry a steeliness enters her tone.” None of these fights are for Baelish’s benefit.

    It’s there. D&D weren’t lying about that. I think some fans sort of took this to mean there would be more of a Starkbowl thing though.

  303. mau: They didn’t, but they clear did these things to keep audience in the dark. There are a lot of examples there.

    Yeah, I think that feels a bit too contradictory for them to do if they’re supposed to be creating this path for her piece by piece if they were scripting Dany to be a psychopath and I don’t think they were. Then they’re blatantly contradicting their own efforts and I don’t think 1) that’s what they’re doing or 2) that’d be very good writing. This sounds a little too conspiracy-theory to me (again, if they were scripting Dany as a psychopath).

    I think they can still build up to Dany’s decision to burn KL without characterizing her as a psychopath, particularly since she does have the ability to feel empathy and remorse and, per their own words, intended for this decision on Dany’s part to be spontaneous Not planned.

    Plus, Dany having empathy is a characterization she has in the books as well so I don’t think that’s out of left field.

  304. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: This, this SO much! Complete summary why I actively avoid fandoms. Nothing, absolutely nothing healthy comes out of dwelling on negativity in my opinion.

    I don’t see anyone “dwelling on negativity” here. I see people respectfully and enthusiastically discussing why they weren’t entirely sold on the ending. There’s nothing wrong with that. However, I do see something wrong with stifling respectful opinion simply because you disagree.

    I also recall you previously stating on this very website that none of the commentators here deserved to be a GoT Fan because you didn’t think anyone was enthusiastic enough. It was basically a giant middle finger to everyone here. Those comments are part of the problem. Hopefully you realize that.

  305. Adrianacandle: I don’t recall D&D saying Sansa would be plotting against Jon, I think they said there’d be a hint of conflict and tension in their relationship — and there was. This was discussed in the commentary for 7×01:

    Likewise, there is tension between them with Jon being King in the North. From the script direction for 7×05 (via Vanity Fair):

    It’s there. D&D weren’t lying about that. I think some fans sort of took this to mean there would be more of a Starkbowl thing though.

    I remember various interviews from post-S6 about what Sansa was supposed to feel during Jon’s coronation scene and implications she’ll crave for more “power” in S7… I don’t remember the details though and I know several of those were from Sophie so yes, maybe the fandom took those interviews more seriously than it was meant to but I remember that that was a period when I started to kind of drift away from WotW because I was feeling the fandom was kind of splitting up… or maybe I was just lucky that during S6, the fandom didn’t seem split to me. No idea… it’s been a while.

  306. Adrianacandle,

    Also something I remember from before S8… but again not sure whether it was from Kit or the producers or somebody else. THere was this interview how Jon won’t be bothered by incest element in his relationship with Dany… but when he did realize of them being related, it played a big part.

  307. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: I remember various interviews from post-S6 about what Sansa was supposed to feel during Jon’s coronation scene and implications she’ll crave for more “power” in S7… I don’t remember the details though and I know several of those were from Sophie so yes, maybe the fandom took those interviews more seriously than it was meant to but I remember that that was a period when I started to kind of drift away from WotW because I was feeling the fandom was kind of splitting up… or maybe I was just lucky that during S6, the fandom didn’t seem split to me. No idea… it’s been a while.

    I think season 7 had scenes which did touch on Sansa’s feelings that she’d rather be Queen in the North instead of Jon being chosen on king (Arya confronts her about this in 7×05 and Sansa expresses frustration that she won the Battle of the Bastards, not Jon, and she won back Winterfell. She’s also unhappy with most of Jon’s decisions and feels he’s not really listening to her as much as she’d prefer). However, yes, I think the fandom kind of took those comments from D&D about tension and conflict existing in their relationship (which I think lasts until the end. Jon doesn’t really forgive Sansa for betraying his trust) and ran with them, anticipating a full-blown Starkbowl. This is something the book fandom speculates too, although I have my reservations about this 🙂

  308. Adrianacandle,

    ” With Arya, I think there was more of a struggle. Jon initially resisted helping Arya — much to his own anguish — because his vows demanded he put aside his blood kin but when Melisandre makes him that offer (he can keep his oath by allowing her to send Mance to rescue his sister), it was an offer Jon couldn’t resist.”

    Out of curiosity, someday I would really like to know why the showrunners jettisoned the Jon & Arya relationship that seemed to be established and nurtured in the books, even when they were physically apart.

    The S1e2 scene of Jon giving Needle to Arya, and Arya leaping into his arms as they say goodbye, was faithfully adapted from the books and so beautifully acted.

    And then… nothing. Even their “reunion” in S8 was abbreviated, and abruptly turned into a discussion about Sansa. After that, Arya jumped on the “we hate your girlfriend” bandwagon in e4, bugged out of WF, and then had a perfunctory five second scene with Jon in which Arya turned into Captain Obvious: “I know a killer when I see one.”

    Goodness, after all that time apart, the show ended with Arya declining Jon’s invitation to visit him at CB, telling him she was going to explore the uncharted oceans. (She couldn’t even join him for the boat ride to CB?)

    There had to be a deliberate deciding to torpedo the Jon & Arya relationship in the books. Maybe the showrunners decided to transplant Sansa into that role? (Sansa got a much better reunion scene, and then got to hang with Jon from early S6 through most of the rest of the show except for his S7 sojourn to Dragonstone to get dragonglass and a girlfriend.)

    Strange: There was rich source material for the Arya & Jon relationship. Book readers were enamored with those characters and their bond. The show started out with an iconic, memorable scene of the two of them. Both book! and show! fans were looking forward to their eventual reunion (after ~ 7 years apart), and to some meaningful, “high thread count” scenes of them together. (I for one was psyched for some side-by-side fight scenes, especially after the pre-S8 WF Crypts teaser trailer showed them drawing their swords together against an offscreen enemy.)

    Yeah, I know I’m an Arya fanboy. Still, it seemed like an odd adaptation decision to ditch such a prominent, popular aspect of the books. In my mind, I’ve reconciled the showrunners’ decision as a choice to apportion each character’s finite screen time, such that the last three or so seasons would highlight the culmination of Arya & Sandor’s storyline, while Sansa would be “assigned” to Jon.

    I should have figured this might happen when there were two conspicuous callbacks to the Hound during Arya’s scenes with Jaqen 2.0 in S5 and the Waif in S6 – and then Jon came out with that odd line, “I thought Arya was dead” in S7e5 even though she had been seen alive and well by Brienne, who reported it to Sansa in S6e2.

    I acknowledge that some fans insist that because Arya hadn’t been heard from since her encounter with Brienne*, Jon naturally “assumed” she was dead.

    This overlooks that Arya had been traveling incognito “dressed as a boy,” and until the Starks ousted the Boltons and retook WF, the Lannisters “held sway” everywhere she was going (as explained by Sandor in S4e7) and there was “nothing in the North but war and ice and pirates” (per ship captain in S4e10), preventing her from traveling north to the Wall. It should have been no surprise that Arya would not broadcast her identity, or try to make contact with her dispersed family members – even if she could figure out where they were.

    As soon as she learned from HPNN that “the Boltons are dead” after “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black and won the Battle of the Bastards,” she immediately headed north to WF.

    So even with the limitations of translating book! characters’ unspoken thoughts into dialogue on screen, I questioned why show! Jon, who had looked into Arya’s eyes and assured her “I’m going to miss you“ in S1e2, thereafter apparently “kind of forgot” about his beloved little sister, and never really mentioned her at all for over six seasons.

    I know I have whinged about this before. I’m now just speculating that the showrunners deliberately downplayed the Arya & Jon bond and abandoned what I assume was GRRM’s intended culmination of their storyline. I’d be curious to learn the reasoning for the showrunners’ decision. If, as I posited, it was because they realized they’d struck gold with Rory McCann/Sandor and Maisie Williams/Arya, I can live with that: After all, those two characters had an established, successful track record over more than ten episodes (with so many memorable scenes) from mid-S3 through the end of S4. With screentime at a premium as the show wound down, streamlining the multiple storylines might well have required choosing one over the other, i.e., Jon & Arya or Sandor & Arya. Or perhaps their elevation of Sansa to a first tier character, and detouring her from the Vale to the North to team up with Jon, necessarily displaced Arya.
    It’d be nice to know what the showrunners and what GRRM had in mind. I’m not holding my breath.

    * What I call Meryn Trant vs. Syrio Forel Redux: A stranger decked out in Lannister armor with a Lannister sword trying to forcibly take custody of Arya from her guardian, after claiming her parent had directed the interloper to escort Arya somewhere. Small wonder Arya rejected this successor Lannister agent’s demand to
    come with me.” Arya had wisely resisted the first Lannister goon’s demand, and on both occasions her heroic guardian was attacked and presumably killed while trying to watch over her.

    Brienne of F*cking Tarth = Meryn F*cking Trant 2.0 confirmed.

  309. Adrianacandle,

    I wouldn’t be surprised though if the producers “amplified” Sansa&Jon tension in interviews for the sake of trying to hide that Jon and Dany would meet early in the season. No idea though…. S7 turned much different than how fandom probably imagined it after S6 ended I imagine. Especially with White Walkers crossing the wall and obtaining a dragon before the War for the Throne would be completed.

  310. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: Also something I remember from before S8… but again not sure whether it was from Kit or the producers or somebody else. THere was this interview how Jon won’t be bothered by incest element in his relationship with Dany… but when he did realize of them being related, it played a big part.

    Are you thinking of this interview? In it, it says (re: Jon and his feelings on incest)

    And incest isn’t exactly straitlaced Jon’s style. Says Harington, “He’s not the kind of person who can [knowingly] jump into bed with a relative.”

    Or is there another interview you’re thinking of?

  311. Adrianacandle,

    Oh, then I remembered it wrong. I kept remembering he said that he IS a kind of person who can knowingly jump into bed with a relative. My mistake 😂 I think comments from one of my FB friends also additionally confused me as she was shipping them so hard and kept saying “I dont’ mind incest”

  312. Efi,

    They both lie that they sleep together and Jon that night truly does it because otherwise he’d blow his cover. He even thinks he was framed -or sth like that- and he was kind of angry and uncomfortable that he had to do it -he considers himself to be an oathbreaker and a turncloak but he never wavers as to where he belonged (hence his “happy exile” in 8.6 makes absolutely no sense).

    From the passage, Jon didn’t lie. Ygritte lied. Here is the exerpt:

    “Ghost padded beside their garrons as Jon and Ygritte descended the Fist. It was not until they were halfway across the Milkwater that Jon felt safe enough to say, “I never asked you to lie for me.”

    “I never did,” she said. “I left out part, is all.”

    “You said-”

    “-that we fuck beneath your cloak many a night. I never said when we started, though.” The smile she gave him was almost shy. “Find another place for Ghost to sleep tonight, Jon Snow. It’s like Mance said. Deeds is truer than words.”

    I don’t remember a passage in which Jon felt framed or angry? He tells himself he is only playing a part but thinks how playing that part was so sweet and wonders if this is how his father felt when he dishonored his mother.

    He also does waver on where he belongs and who he wants to be. There are more quotes to this effect but I think this comment will be a multi-parter so I’ll just include this one for now:

    Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want?

    However, Jon is pretty torn over leaving. He tries to distance himself from the wildlings because the more he gets to know them as people, the harder they are to betray and he grudgingly admits he is developing a genuine fondness for Mance and Tormund, viewing the prospect of having to betray Tormund as bleak.

    And I’d say the prospect of life beyond the Wall did have an appeal for him, not in any small part due to Ygritte, but he was wavering a little.

    When he returns to Castle Black, he thinks this:

    I should have stayed in that cave with Ygritte. If there was a life beyond this one, he hoped to tell her that. She will claw my face the way the eagle did, and curse me for a coward, but I’ll tell her all the same.

    Ygritte’s savage insticts and warlike nature are appaling to Jon and no matter how he’d like it to be otherwise.

    I got the impression that Jon admired the spearwives for their martial abilities, that he wasn’t appalled by Ygritte’s violent nature. He doesn’t approve of her killing an innocent man to have him prove his loyalty and he struggles with that — but not with Ygritte’s lethal aspects.

    Jon even reflects on his growing attraction to Val, “Lovely, lonely, and lethal.”

    He also thinks of Val, when she returns successfully from a mission to find Tormund when none of his men could:

    Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. “I must inform the queen of this agreement,” he said. “You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee.” It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth.

    _____

    He thinks that “it was wrong to love her, wrong to leave her”, because with the first he broke his vows, and with the second he could have saved her if he stayed with her. Jon’s first instinct is to save people, and this applies to Ygritte as well, and the line “he was wrong to love her, wrong to leave her” encapsulates his guilt, not his love (that’s my book reading). It’s hardly the epic romance displayed on screen.

    I’m pretty sure Jon did love Ygritte. And I thought this line was about the conflict in in himself — he had a mission to fulfill, to the Night’s Watch but duty to the Night’s Watch was conflicting with his love for Ygritte.

    [Part 1]

  313. Efi,

    In the books it seems to be a preparation for Daenerys. Will Jon fall for another lady with violent instincts? Rather not, otherwise he’d really have learned nothing at all. Book readers and show watchers who want these both to be epic romances are swayed, I think, by the screen adaptation that didn’t know exactly what to do with the heros/villains of the story because they are so grey in the books.

    I’m not sure what you mean, “Learned nothing at all”? I don’t know what damage was done to Jon as a result of loving Ygritte. She helped broaden his scope, expanded his world view, made him seem beyond preconceptions. Plus, per GRRM, Ygritte represents a type of woman that is Jon’s type.

    From my reading, Jon seems to admire some of these violent instincts per the quote above. Also, he respects the ability of a spearwife to slit the throat of any man who harasses her or the other girls.

    The book will explore his attachment to the Starks much better, but I think -this is my opinion only- there won’t be much wavering when it comes to Dany. Daenerys shall be Jon’s duty because he will have pledged to her, and his family shall be his love.

    If this is the case, I’m not sure how this would be exploring GRRM’s central theme — “the human heart in conflict with itself” — or how this would make his conflict any different from the one he’s already faced in the series so far. Especially if this is Jon’s final choice, his final test, and what I imagine to be his hardest decision — how would Dany simply being his duty vs his family being his love make this final conflict, Jon’s culminating decision, any different from the ones who came before? And especially if there’s no wavering:

    I’ve always agreed with William Faulkner—he said that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I’ve always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing. I mean, you can have a dragon, you can have a science fiction story set on a distant planet with aliens and starships, you can have a western about a gunslinger, or a mystery novel about a private eye, or even literary fiction—and ultimately you’re still writing about the human heart in conflict with itself. So that’s the way I try to approach this thing. And while I may work within a genre, I’ve never liked to be bound by them. I have a lot of fun in frustrating genre expectations, using a bit of this or a bit of that, and doing something that hasn’t been done before.

    Additionally, Jon also harbors some anger toward the Starks too and in how he was treated differently. He loves them, of course, but there are some issues and it’s sort of a complex dynamic.

    I think Adam Feldman asks a good question: “Who is Jon’s pack now?”

    He even dies for FArya, so how is it to be expected that he will ever betray his family following Dany blindly?

    Well, breaking his vows for Arya led to some pretty bad consequences… ie. risking the entire realm.

    However, Jon doesn’t die for Arya. He knows Ramsay doesn’t have Arya. He views Ramsay as a monster sullying the seat of House Stark, a monster who Jon feels must be destroyed.

    Ignoring his abhorrence for fire and what it does to people? Book Jon will never defend Dany for wiping out an entire city by sowing fire above their heads, neither will he discuss it, with Tyrion or with Dany. “Yes, honey, you just murdered half a million innocents; let’s forget all about it now, shall we? Let’s put the dragon to rest, he’s done enough”. Sorry, that’s a bad soap.

    Jon’s discomfort with the utilization of fire didn’t really stop him from supporting Stannis, who Jon viewed as fighting for the realm. And if love is involved, I think it’s natural Jon is going to have a really hard time with the prospect of killing Dany — creating the terrible inner struggle. If Jon just goes in there and kills her right away without any feeling or struggle, I don’t know what that’s exploring — especially in relation to what GRRM is talking about above.

    [Part 2]

  314. Efi,

    In the original plans two scenes were cut: Daenerys ordering Jon to come to her room after the council in 7.7, which takes away Jon’s agency (she’s a queen, he was laid down his crown)

    That was a rumored scene, I never saw the scripting of this scene. Are you referring to the outline? In the outline, Dany thinks to herself that she’d like to talk about something with Jon later but there’s no mention of a summoning.

    and her lamenting about the killing of Viseryon by his bed, which showed that she didn’t care to fight for the North, she wanted revenge from the NK for her dragon -hence Jon lays his crown on her lap realizing that this queen needs more swaying for fighting for them, for securing her help.

    Are you referring to the Jonsa Pol!Jon theory Kevin was talking about in April?

    In [Jonsa’s] idea Jon is only with Dany to manipulate her and steal a dragon for his lover Sansa so he can defeat Dany and take the seven kingdoms for her. (which I even have problems with see below).

    (I’m really sorry if you’re referring to something else! Please correct me!)

    This was a theory that never found a footing in canon or support from the writers/cast/crew. It’s a Jonsa shipper theory that I do have a lot of problems with, as you know, and I can elaborate on this in another post if there’s a need for it. I think it’s full of plot holes and doesn’t give Jon an exit strategy. And with all due respect (this isn’t directed at you but the theory), I find the theory deeply misogynistic and pretty problematic: it has Jon controlling a woman with sex to do the right thing and faking his feelings for her so she does what he wants.

    However, that aside, you’re referring to the script direction which, yes, illustrates Dany’s turmoil over Viserion’s death — but I think is understandable.

    At the same time (and forgive me if I’m misunderstanding you, please correct me if I’m not reading your post right), you’re also saying Jon only gave up his crown to sway Dany into fighting for them — when this same scripting direction says Jon is pushed to the realization that he loved her. Doesn’t that count too?

    and second, that Jon was so “in love” and swayed by the “sacrifice” that he actually did resign from office (inexplicably after she has pledged to fight for them), thereby betraying the North and his siblings

    Well, yeah. I think that’s it. For better or for worse with how it was done, this is what the writers wrote. It’s fair for people to have issues with it. While I don’t think it’s a betrayal of the North and I think it was within Jon’s rights to bend the knee as king, I understand the North feeling betrayed. Jon deserved every bit of anger they threw his way, I think it was a stupid decision that he should have consulted people over before making it — but I don’t think there was any nefarious purpose or secret plot suppressed by the writers.

    And I think it was done to bring about conflict in season 8 right off the bat.

    Just like how I don’t think there was any nefarious purpose on Sansa’s part when she concealed the KoTV. It was done to bring about conflict.

    [Part 3]

  315. Efi,

    I think that these changes happened late in season 7. Perhaps even the scenes were filmed and deleted pretty much like Cersei’s miscarriage that doesn’t exist in any DVD or on the internet.

    From what I’ve seen, there’s no evidence of these Pol!Jon scenes existing (if that’s what you’re referring to). There’s evidence of that Cersei scene existing, Lena Headey speaks out about it. But no scenes from an alt plot featuring Jon and Dany.

    And why would he say to the lords in 8.1 that it was “his crown or the North” when on screen so such dilemma existed?

    A writing inconsistency, I think (which has happened on the show from time to time, just like it happens on quote a few shows). I mean, Dany didn’t come North for love of Jon either. That wasn’t her stated motivation n 7×06. It was because she saw the army of the dead for herself, he had just killed her dragon, and she had to see the threat to know, “Now I know.” She realized the threat was real.

    I also kind of wonder if it it was done to demonstrate Sansa’s intelligence because she figures out that personal feeling was likely involved in Jon’s decision to bend the knee when she asks him if it was done for the North or because of his feelings for her.

    Loving the wrong woman (I remind Jaimie-Cersei, Robb-Talisa/Jeyne Westerling, Tyrion/Shae) amounts to nothing, it’s just something to be repeated by another protagonist? Are male figures of GoT/ASoIaF really that dumb? Loving the wrong woman over and over and over and over? [if it is so, then no wonder Westeros ends up being ruled by a woman and the 3ER; others are not to be trusted]

    Perhaps it’s about exploring a terrible inner conflict in different ways and what this reveals about a character. And they unfold in different ways with different comes and choices they’re presented with. None of these situations are quite the same. Protagonists do make mistakes, they do struggle. They’re often hampered by human feeling, that’s what makes doing the right thing so hard and sometimes, people fail at that. It’s not a matter of intelligence, it’s a matter of emotion many of us are subject to and how this can manifest in different ways — and what consequences this can bring about.

    While not every character falls for the “wrong” woman, I don’t even think all of these are examples of falling for the wrong woman but under the wrong circumstances — like Robb. Like Tyrion. If they had been in different situations, it could have worked out. For Cersei, she didn’t fall in love with the wrong guy. Jaime was addicted to the wrong woman rather than the one who brought out the best in him. But for Brienne, falling for a guy who’d be addicted to his sister for always led to incredible pain for her. Sometimes, love doesn’t conquer all.

    Plus, the alternative (if you’re referencing the Pol!Jon theory), faking feelings for Dany and manipulating her would also be pretty stupid too. It has no exit strategy for Jon because under this theory:

    1. Jon knowingly either submits the North to somebody he believes is an unhinged tyrant who could spark at any time forever , hoping sex is enough to control her and that she never catches on (which wouldn’t be likely since Dany isn’t stupid).

    2. Or, if he reveals that he’s been using her this whole time, he gives Dany a reason to go to war against the North, upon which the situation wouldn’t look great for the North.

    3. Or he actually plans on assassinating Dany after he’s done with her, knowingly causing a war with Dany’s armies and supporters from the first — rather than it being done as a last resort after she’s just demolished a whole city, wants to keep it up, and it’s evident that the cheese has slid off her cracker.

    This would also make Jon not only kind of stupid, but I think it would make him the biggest jerk. The proponents of this theory talk about how Dany was emotionally abusing Jon…. but they want Jon to emotionally abuse and manipulate Dany. And not just want — they have conspiracy theories over how D&D somehow imagined this as the original plan but ditched it because of Dany’s popularity, to please her fans, and because Emilia Clarke convinced them otherwise. Yet there are no indications of this in their outline/script materials or in their interviews. However, Jonsas claim these materials were tampered with.

    And I can’t imagine the criticism D&D would get over a plot like this.

    (Again, please know this isn’t aimed at you, Efi, but at the theory! Again, if I am misunderstanding you at all, please correct me!)

    [Part 4 — only one more to go!]

  316. Efi,

    Does Jon’s threat to Melisandre for the burning of Shireen mean nothing? He’d still fall in love for one with such violent instincts -such as those he experienced on the beach of Dragonstone (she threatens silently to burn KL and threatens Tyrion’s family)- forgetting his aversion to unnecessary violence?

    Or maybe Jon didn’t see Dany as a monster sacrificing kids to her god for the sake of blood magic — but as somebody who wanted to help people like he did and demonstrated that in 7×06, somebody who her followers said they chose, somebody who avoided the direct route of hitting King’s Landing right away to take it when reminded of cost to lives. Jon didn’t see Ygritte as a monster, Tormund as a monster, Stannis as a monster, etc. Jon can connect with people he doesn’t fully agree with.

    As for Dany’s anger at Tyrion, as Petra pointed out:

    This is called anger. It is a perfectly healthy emotion to feel when one’s allies fuck up.

    Tyrion’s family are the ones who are fighting against Dany, they are her enemies. They’re not just random family members of her Hand. Tyrion got on board with Dany, knowing they’d be fighting his family.

    Would the guy whose’s weakness for Sansa as established in three (!) scenes (I remind “I’ll protect you I promise” scene, beating Ramsay’s head to a pulp, choking LF) feel conflicted about killing one who has been threatening Sansa in each and every episode of season 8?

    I don’t think Jon’s weakness was Sansa, I think that’s kind of overstating it. Jon was reacting in a reasonable way as a big brother, who only managed to reunite with one sister from his mostly lost family, against two people who abused her, tormented her, and (in Ramsay’s case), raped her. I don’t think that’d demonstrating a weakness, I think that’s a reasonable response against two people who demonstrated significant abuse against a family member. This wasn’t before they had done anything.

    Additionally, Jon didn’t love Ramsay or Littlefinger. He hated them — and Jon didn’t just hate Ramsay for Sansa but for a myriad of crimes, including the murder of his younger brother Rickon. He viewed these two as monsters. Meanwhile, Jon definitely didn’t view Dany the way he viewed Ramsay or Littlefinger. Jon thought that there truly was a way he, Dany, Sansa, and Arya could all live together, that they just needed to get to know each other. And I’m not sure where Dany was threatening Sansa in every episode of season 8? And if she was, Jon kind of had blind spots on, he wasn’t viewing these words in the same way you are — he also had blind spots for Sansa too (believing she wouldn’t betray his trust), and probably the way he would have had for Arya if conflict arose there too. I think he has for people he cares about.

    As for feeling conflicted over killing her, I think it’s natural to balk at the prospect of killing somebody you love. Even if some people didn’t buy it for understandable reasons, the show scripted Jon to love Dany and that’s why he’s conflicted.

    Hence, imho, this was no romance (or I’ll burn all my Jane Austen books). It was ambivalent at best, failed attempt at worse, depending on the viewer’s perception of the on-screen adaptation. I don’t believe that there will be a romance in the books (but there will probably be some s*x).

    Per our conversations in the past, it seems to be the writers’ intention that this was a love story. I don’t think there was any hidden plot or theory that was never revealed. I think it was doomed, I think it had unhealthy aspects, and I think it had execution problems, but I believe this was meant to set up Jon’s final conflict.

    I think they needed to spend more time building them up as a couple before tearing them apart to make this feel more weighty, more significant. However, Jon-Dany weren’t the only plot with execution problems in season 8, I think. And I think D&D were exploring a solid concept behind the storyline.

    [DONE!!! 😀 Sorry for length ;;]

  317. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: I wouldn’t be surprised though if the producers “amplified” Sansa&Jon tension in interviews for the sake of trying to hide that Jon and Dany would meet early in the season. No idea though…. S7 turned much different than how fandom probably imagined it after S6 ended I imagine. Especially with White Walkers crossing the wall and obtaining a dragon before the War for the Throne would be completed.

    I don’t know if they did, though. They probably didn’t want people to know exactly when or if Jon and Dany would meet but I think, for the most part, they delivered the issues that were promised.

    Kit Harington talks about how Sansa gets under Jon’s skin and feels angry when she keeps questioning his authority in public, which she does and I think is reflective of what happened in the season. Meanwhile, Sophie Turner felt that Jon wasn’t listening to Sansa and promised there would be tension from the first scene between them and there was.

    Perhaps they did play it up? But I don’t think they were lying. I think there is tension and that has existed through to the end of the show, when Jon can’t quite fully forgive Sansa for betraying his secret. They love each other but I felt there was always that difficulty between them. They don’t get alone on every level.

  318. Adrianacandle,

    …”Sansa expresses frustration that she won the Battle of the Bastards, not Jon, and she won back Winterfell.”

    Ha! Sorry, Lady Sansa. That’s not what HPNN reported. “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling Army and won the Battle of the Bastards…”*

    I know Paranoid Sansa insisted to Psycho Arya in S7 that Jon had “lost” the Battle and that she (Sansa) won it because the KotV came to support her.

    Hindreds or thousands of fighters bled and died to take back WF. Jon almost died. Sansa… wrote a letter to PervyFinger to take him up on his offer to bring the KotV mustered down the road? That’s “winning the Battle”???

    Again, I feel the showrunners did a disservice to Sophie and her character. They kept telling us Sansa was becoming a “savvy politician” and wrote dialogue for other characters to remark how “smart” Sansa had become.

    I really wish the writers had shown her intellect in action rather than telling us, or having other characters tell us, she’s smart and savvy. (What’s that old adage? “Show me, don’t tell me.”)

    If I recall correctly, Sophie was left twisting in the wind without any insight into her character’s motivations provided by the showrunners. I think she spoke at a Con panel, and said Sansa wanted the “credit” for winning the battle and that’s why she didn’t tell Jon about the KotV?

    Surely there had to be a way to plot the intervention of the KotV so that Sansa it was undeniable that came out looking like the real heroine who saved the day – and not a self-centered, distrusting bystander. I genuinely wanted to see the little bird spread her metaphorical wings and engineer a victory by using her wit, charm, and powers of persuasion.

    At best, her motivations and machinations were ambiguous. Claiming that she “won” the battle invited derision (and fan wars). It certainly didn’t portray her as humble or gracious. (I thought book! Sansa’s noteworthy attribute was her ability to use “courtesy” as an interpersonal mechanism or something like that?)

    *I kind of had fun with all of the different characters taking credit for winning the Battle of the Bastards. A while back I think I listed them all, along with a few avian characters who could rightfully take credit.

    – In addition to Hot Pie reporting that Jon Snow won the Battle of the Bastards…
    – Sansa claimed Jon lost the battle and that she won it.
    – Jon Snow himself (magnanimously) announced that the Northerners, the Free Folk, and the Knights of the Vale “fought together, fought bravely, and we won.” (S6e10)
    – In S7e2, LF told Jon he was owed a debt of gratitude for winning the battle.
    – Robyn Arryn actually gave the command to mobilize the KotV to help Team Stark.
    – Ghost of Wun Wun [translation]: “What am I, chopped liver? No way you won without me.”
    – Lord Manderly S6e10: “Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding!”
    – Arya thinks: “He did?”
    – Sansa: “I wrote the letter to LF.”
    – Raven #25-3: 🦅 Squawk! Squawk!” (Translation: “I delivered Sansa’s letter. I won the Battle of the Bastards.”)

    All kidding aside, anyone taking credit for winning the Battle came off as petty. Many characters could make the semantic cause and effect argument that “but for me, we wouldn’t have won.” or “What I did won the battle.”

    Sansa deserved a breakthrough moment, one that didn’t rely on LF and his ulterior motives.
    Some commenters suggested – and I agree – that Sansa going around LF and dealing directly with Lord Royce and Robyn Arryn to persuade them to help would’ve demonstrated initiative and political savvy on Sansa’s part.
    After Sansa’s less than inspiring speech failed to motivate Lyanna Mormont, showing Sansa successfully persuading a different reluctant potential ally to join the fight could have shown her character learning from her mistakes and evolving into the respected leader she’d become at the end.

    Sansa could invoke her father and his upbringing in the Vale to spur Lord Royce, and her Tully kinship with her cousin Robyn to get him on board. Maybe throw in an appeal to “family, duty, honor” to inspire them.

    Writing a passionate, inspiring speech for Sophie to deliver would have been a highlight (for me). Jon got such a speech to impress the suspicious Free Folk in S5e8. Tyrion got one to rally the KL defenders in “Blackwater.” Thorne got one to inspire the NW before the Wildlings’ assault in S4e9. Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” propaganda speech to win over the reluctant lords to support her was really well written and nicely delivered.
    These are just a few off the top of my head. Surely there were others.

    I thought Sophie Turner did a fine job delivering her lines in LF’s trial by ambush scene in S7e7. I’m merely suggesting in retrospect that Sansa delivering a convincing speech or maybe some other dialogue-rich scene (that didn’t involve kowtowing to LF) could have illustrated why Sansa should be given “credit” rather than taking credit for herself.

    -End Meandering Musings –

  319. Adrianacandle,

    Yeah, maybe it’s fans who blew it out of proportion… I remember being several big theories here that went into very dark territory regarding Jon and Sansa. Including that Arya will kill her out of her love for Jon and such. Sansa becoming a villain became quite a big theme… possibly most controversial one post-S6 (which generally ended on quite positive note regarding protagonists). I don’t know… when I started watching S7, I was honestly quite nervous where the story would go, especially with Sansa being my favorite character. But then it all seemed much more tame than how I felt was stated in those interviews.

  320. Ten Bears,

    Out of curiosity, someday I would really like to know why the showrunners jettisoned the Jon & Arya relationship that seemed to be established and nurtured in the books, even when they were physically apart.

    I think that’s a good question to ask them because in interviews, D&D do acknowledge how close these two are in — but it doesn’t really come across on screen. It feels like Arya is just another sibling.

    And I wonder if the reason why Jon and Arya don’t reunite until toward the end is because maybe this happens in the books too? That Jon and Arya don’t reunite until ADOW (I hope I’m wrong on this thought).

    And then… nothing. Even their “reunion” in S8 was abbreviated[…]
    Goodness, after all that time apart, the show ended with Arya declining Jon’s invitation to visit him at CB, telling him she was going to explore the uncharted oceans. (She couldn’t even join him for the boat ride to CB?)
    There had to be a deliberate deciding to torpedo the Jon & Arya relationship in the books. Maybe the showrunners decided to transplant Sansa into that role?[…]

    I don’t think Sansa can be transplanted into Arya’s role because on the show, Sansa has a very very different sibling relationship with Jon than that between Jon and Arya in the books. Jon and Sansa were often at odds while Arya and Jon were often in sync (finishing each other’s sentences). Jon and Sansa are able to establish a bond due to them being the first to reunite in a very desperate time, a time when their family is mostly lost, whereas prior, they weren’t close because of Jon’s bastardy.

    However, Jon’s bastardy matter to Arya. It’s one of the things that bonds them so tightly. To reiterate this quote from GRRM:

    Alright, you’ve thought about this more than I have. I mean it’s simple, Jon is very fond of Arya. They were the two odd birds in the Stark family nest, here. They didn’t quite fit in with the others, they look like each other, they both had the brown hair, you know, as opposed to the auburn hair of Sansa and Bran and Rickon and Robb. So there was always that closeness between them. And, you know, Arya didn’t mind that Jon was a bastard, and Jon didn’t mind that Arya was a tomboy, so there is that closeness there.

    ___

    Strange: There was rich source material for the Arya & Jon relationship. Book readers were enamored with those characters and their bond. The show started out with an iconic, memorable scene of the two of them. Both book! and show! fans were looking forward to their eventual reunion (after ~ 7 years apart), and to some meaningful, “high thread count” scenes of them together.

    There is that rich source material and from what I’ve seen, their bond is pretty loved by the book fandom (but I can’t speak for everyone, this is just an assessment of what I’ve witnessed). Arya and Jon are probably one another’s most important relationship in the books. They have a bond few others have and that’s informed by both of them feeling like outsiders, which is pretty strong and hard to replicate.

    I don’t think it can be replicated with Sansa because Sansa hasn’t endured these same struggles and Jon and Arya bonded like this from early on. In contrast, Jon and Sansa developed their relationship in adulthood from a fairly distant childhood).

    And I think you pinpointed the reason right here:

    So even with the limitations of translating book! characters’ unspoken thoughts into dialogue on screen, I questioned why show! Jon, who had looked into Arya’s eyes and assured her “I’m going to miss you“ in S1e2, thereafter apparently “kind of forgot” about his beloved little sister, and never really mentioned her at all for over six seasons.

    I think there are translation challenges from books (where we can access the characters’ thoughts) to screen (where we can’t do the same unless we have a voice over).

    So the other option would be to have Jon say Arya’s name aloud. Jon doesn’t typically talk about his siblings or family, not unprompted and not often. And not in the books either. He only says Arya’s name a handful a times aloud in the books, even, but most of our access to that relationship lives in his thoughts (and Arya’s thoughts as well).

    (I for one was psyched for some side-by-side fight scenes, especially after the pre-S8 WF Crypts teaser trailer showed them drawing their swords together against an offscreen enemy.)

    Me too :/

    Yeah, I know I’m an Arya fanboy. Still, it seemed like an odd adaptation decision to ditch such a prominent, popular aspect of the books. In my mind, I’ve reconciled the showrunners’ decision as a choice to apportion each character’s finite screen time, such that the last three or so seasons would highlight the culmination of Arya & Sandor’s storyline, while Sansa would be “assigned” to Jon.

    And I think they needed that screentime, Jon and Arya. Jon wasn’t saying Sansa’s name aloud either until they reunited and were able to develop that relationship on-screen from seasons 6-8. Jon’s relationship with Arya never had that luxury and they were reunited in a compressed time frame where a ton of stuff needed to happen to get to the conclusion.

    Perhaps if the pace had been more like the one of seasons 1-5, yes, and maybe if there were just a few more episodes in season 8, we would have gotten more development to Jon and Arya (but I don’t know if it’d reach the level it was in the books since we don’t have access to these characters’ thoughts).

    This overlooks that Arya had been traveling incognito “dressed as a boy,” and until the Starks ousted the Boltons and retook WF, the Lannisters “held sway” everywhere she was going (as explained by Sandor in S4e7) and there was “nothing in the North but war and ice and pirates” (per ship captain in S4e10), preventing her from traveling north to the Wall. It should have been no surprise that Arya would not broadcast her identity, or try to make contact with her dispersed family members – even if she could figure out where they were.

    When Brienne last saw Arya, it had been over a year — and Westeros was pretty dangerous.

    I think this is one of those execution problems, probably starting from season 6. Show Jon and Sansa discuss Arya for instance — because he doesn’t say her name again until 7×05.

    I know I have whinged about this before. I’m now just speculating that the showrunners deliberately downplayed the Arya & Jon bond and abandoned what I assume was GRRM’s intended culmination of their storyline. I’d be curious to learn the reasoning for the showrunners’ decision.

    It’d be a good question to ask them.

    Or perhaps their elevation of Sansa to a first tier character, and detouring her from the Vale to the North to team up with Jon, necessarily displaced Arya.

    I think this did have an impact on Sansa and Jon’s storylines in particular but I don’t know if it displaced Arya. Arya is still in Braavos in book 5 and I don’t know how soon it’ll be until she’s coming home. Maybe this is a reason why D&D reunited them so late.

  321. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: Yeah, maybe it’s fans who blew it out of proportion… I remember being several big theories here that went into very dark territory regarding Jon and Sansa. Including that Arya will kill her out of her love for Jon and such. Sansa becoming a villain became quite a big theme… possibly most controversial one post-S6 (which generally ended on quite positive note regarding protagonists). I don’t know… when I started watching S7, I was honestly quite nervous where the story would go, especially with Sansa being my favorite character. But then it all seemed much more tame than how I felt was stated in those interviews.

    Those theories did come from fans, I don’t think this was necessarily misrepresented by D&D — but yes, I saw some theories go into some very dark places (and there are book theories about a Starkbowl too, which seem pretty dark). I didn’t think it’d go to the extremes some theories were positing it would go… but I totally thought there was going to be tension, yes.

    And I think some fans actually really wanted a Starkbowl for… various reasons. You’d probably have to google the term on the asoiaf subreddit to get their thoughts.

  322. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas:
    Adrianacandle,

    Yeah, maybe it’s fans who blew it out of proportion… I remember being several big theories here that went into very dark territory regarding Jon and Sansa. Including that Arya will kill her out of her love for Jon and such. Sansa becoming a villain became quite a big theme… possibly most controversial one post-S6 (which generally ended on quite positive note regarding protagonists). I don’t know… when I started watching S7, I was honestly quite nervous where the story would go, especially with Sansa being my favorite character. But then it all seemed much more tame than how I felt was stated in those interviews.

    And consequently, I started to alienate myself from discussions about S7 through that year. Because BOTB and TWOW are two episodes I absolutely loved, the two GoT episodes that by far charged me the most with special feelings and emotions up to that point in GoT and only two episodes that rival “The Incident” and “The End” of LOST in terms of how I feel when watching it. Both episodes are straight gems to me and with my rewatches, the impact only grew bigger for me. I still live remember last time when (re)watching BOTB… I took significant time to calm down from all the thrill, despite already watching this episode before. And TWOW… every single scene in that episode does it for me. From Cersei’s Godfather-like sequence to most subtle character interactions, it’s just whole package. But when these two episodes started becoming a source of controversy for my favorite character among fandom, I kind of started to alienate myself because in case if Sansa did descend into dark territory, I wanted to “grasp” it more on my own.

  323. Adrianacandle: Those theories did come from fans, I don’t think this was necessarily misrepresented by D&D — but yes, I saw some theories go into some very dark places (and there are book theories about a Starkbowl too, which seem pretty dark). I didn’t think it’d go to the extremes some theories were positing it would go… but I totally thought there was going to be tension, yes.

    And I think some fans actually really wanted a Starkbowl for… various reasons. You’d probably have to google the term on the asoiaf subreddit to get their thoughts.

    Yeah, no idea. I really followed the speculation for S7 at minimum… and then even less for S8. Especially as I was always afraid there would be some leaks and people would then present leaks as their “theories” like it started happening during S6.

  324. Adrianacandle,

    And ironically, S7/S8 indeed ended up deconstructing a lot of protagonists and presenting them as very messed up people. And honestly, I don’t even mind protagonsits taking dark routes… I almost always find it thrilling and interesting. It’s just that I felt everything was becoming too… tense? Heated up? No idea how to properly express myself.

  325. Adrianacandle:
    Ten Bears,

    I think that’s a good question to ask them because in interviews, D&D do acknowledge how close these two are in — but it doesn’t really come across on screen. It feels like Arya is just another sibling.

    And I wonder if the reason why Jon and Arya don’t reunite until toward the end is because maybe this happens in the books too? That Jon and Arya don’t reunite until ADOW (I hope I’m wrong on this thought).

    I don’t think Sansa can be transplanted into Arya’s role because on the show, Sansa has a very very different sibling relationship with Jon than that between Jon and Arya in the books. Jon and Sansa were often at odds while Arya and Jon were often in sync (finishing each other’s sentences). Jon and Sansa are able to establish a bond due to them being the first to reunite in a very desperate time, a time when their family is mostly lost, whereas prior, they weren’t close because of Jon’s bastardy.

    However, Jon’s bastardy matter to Arya. It’s one of the things that bonds them so tightly. To reiterate this quote from GRRM:

    ___

    There is that rich source material and from what I’ve seen, their bond is pretty loved by the book fandom (but I can’t speak for everyone, this is just an assessment of what I’ve witnessed). Arya and Jon are probably one another’s most important relationship in the books. They have a bond few others have and that’s informed by both of them feeling like outsiders, which is pretty strong and hard to replicate.

    I don’t think it can be replicated with Sansa because Sansa hasn’t endured these same struggles and Jon and Arya bonded like this from early on. In contrast, Jon and Sansa developed their relationship in adulthood from a fairly distant childhood).

    And I think you pinpointed the reason right here:

    I think there are translation challenges from books (where we can access the characters’ thoughts) to screen (where we can’t do the same unless we have a voice over).

    So the other option would be to have Jon say Arya’s name aloud. Jon doesn’t typically talk about his siblings or family, not unprompted and not often. And not in the books either. He only says Arya’s name a handful a times aloud in the books, even, but most of our access to that relationship lives in his thoughts (and Arya’s thoughts as well).

    Me too :/

    And I think they needed that screentime, Jon and Arya. Jon wasn’t saying Sansa’s name aloud either until they reunited and were able to develop that relationship on-screen from seasons 6-8. Jon’s relationship with Arya never had that luxury and they were reunited in a compressed time frame where a ton of stuff needed to happen to get to the conclusion.

    Perhaps if the pace had been more like the one of seasons 1-5, yes, and maybe if there were just a few more episodes in season 8, we would have gotten more development to Jon and Arya (but I don’t know if it’d reach the level it was in the books since we don’t have access to these characters’ thoughts).

    When Brienne last saw Arya, it had been over a year — and Westeros was pretty dangerous.

    I think this is one of those execution problems, probably starting from season 6. Show Jon and Sansa discuss Arya for instance — because he doesn’t say her name again until 7×05.

    It’d be a good question to ask them.

    I think this did have an impact on Sansa and Jon’s storylines in particular but I don’t know if it displaced Arya. Arya is still in Braavos in book 5 and I don’t know how soon it’ll be until she’s coming home. Maybe this is a reason why D&D reunited them so late.

    Yes, I think this is pretty much the case. I believe that if someone went to watch GoT for first time now on their own, having no access to online fandoms and such, I kind of feel that a lot of them wouldn’t even think Arya & Jon relationship is such a big deal. I’m sure a lot of it comes from book readers, as it’s really expressed through their thoughts there, and of course from people who went to read books during the course of the show, and people who got aware of this from book readers etc. And yes, screentime is very important and I think with Arya and Jon reuniting in such late stages of the show with only a few episodes left to go, there just wasn’t much potential for this to even be some big thing, based on one scene 66 episodes ago. I have no idea where GRRM is going with this and whether he has some major plans for them or did he change plans during the course of his writing.

  326. Ten Bears,

    I thought Sophie Turner did a fine job delivering her lines in LF’s trial by ambush scene in S7e7. I’m merely suggesting in retrospect that Sansa delivering a convincing speech or maybe some other dialogue-rich scene (that didn’t involve kowtowing to LF) could have illustrated why Sansa should be given “credit” rather than taking credit for herself.

    Me too!! And maybe a speech from Sansa (or a monologue to another character could have expanded on Sansa’s feelings over this further.

    Ha! Sorry, Lady Sansa. That’s not what HPNN reported. “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling Army and won the Battle of the Bastards…”*

    XD And your nicknames are A+.

    (And when actually, it was the raven who won ;D)

    (Also: maybe Sansa caught wind of this headline and that’s partially why she’s so frustrated? 🙂 )

    I know Paranoid Sansa insisted to Psycho Arya in S7 that Jon had “lost” the Battle and that she (Sansa) won it because the KotV came to support her.
    Hindreds or thousands of fighters bled and died to take back WF. Jon almost died. Sansa… wrote a letter to PervyFinger to take him up on his offer to bring the KotV mustered down the road? That’s “winning the Battle”???
    Again, I feel the showrunners did a disservice to Sophie and her character. They kept telling us Sansa was becoming a “savvy politician” and wrote dialogue for other characters to remark how “smart” Sansa had become.

    Yep. I think this was done to create drama and an opportunity for an 11th hour save — sort of like what Sophie Turner herself speculated, that it created this dramatic opportunity.

    I really wish the writers had shown her intellect in action rather than telling us, or having other characters tell us, she’s smart and savvy. (What’s that old adage? “Show me, don’t tell me.”)

    I think this is an issue in general with multiple things. As for Sansa, I think this will be done well in the books if we ever get them. But on the show…. I agree with you.

    If I recall correctly, Sophie was left twisting in the wind without any insight into her character’s motivations provided by the showrunners. I think she spoke at a Con panel, and said Sansa wanted the “credit” for winning the battle and that’s why she didn’t tell Jon about the KotV?
    Surely there had to be a way to plot the intervention of the KotV so that Sansa it was undeniable that came out looking like the real heroine who saved the day – and not a self-centered, distrusting bystander.

    Yeah, there was no real in-universe reason provided. Fans have their theories and some of them are very well thought out — taking Sansa’s trauma into account, using this as an opportunity to examine her trust issues vs her want to trust Jon, etc. But I don’t think that’s why the writers had Sansa make the choices she did. I think it was about her being a smart, savvy player but I found some of her character choices on the mystifying side.

    I genuinely wanted to see the little bird spread her metaphorical wings and engineer a victory by using her wit, charm, and powers of persuasion.

    Me too! That’s why I was so excited by that season 4 scene you posted with Sansa and LF! “Shall we go?”

    At best, her motivations and machinations were ambiguous. Claiming that she “won” the battle invited derision (and fan wars). It certainly didn’t portray her as humble or gracious. (I thought book! Sansa’s noteworthy attribute was her ability to use “courtesy” as an interpersonal mechanism or something like that?)

    Yes, it’s “courtesy is a lady’s armor” — in which she appears polite, amicable, etc. but underneath, she is taking this all in and figuring out her next move.

    I don’t even think Sansa’s motives were meant to be ambiguous, I think it was done to create that 11th hour save but from this, all sorts of theories popped up with regard to Sansa betraying Jon, plotting against him, etc. and I think that was unfortunate for Sansa’s character and opened her up to a lot of hate.

    *I kind of had fun with all of the different characters taking credit for winning the Battle of the Bastards. A while back I think I listed them all, along with a few avian characters who could rightfully take credit.

    Yes! I remember this! (And thanks for including it again!) And I think we settled on the raven! 😀

    Raven #25-3: 🦅 Squawk! Squawk!” (Translation: “I delivered Sansa’s letter. I won the Battle of the Bastards.”)

    This will be a super nerdy reveal but in DnD, my character has a raven familiar and my Dungeon Master often has to play him and she has an excellent “Squawk! Squawk” delivery!

    Sansa deserved a breakthrough moment, one that didn’t rely on LF and his ulterior motives.

    Yep!

    Some commenters suggested – and I agree – that Sansa going around LF and dealing directly with Lord Royce and Robyn Arryn to persuade them to help would’ve demonstrated initiative and political savvy on Sansa’s part.

    I thought that would have been a good option too. And I agree with your alternative to use this as an opportunity for Sansa to make a convincing proposal to Robyn (though I think Robyn was already willing to help Sansa out?)

    However, it would have been nice to see Sansa make an inspiring appeal vis a vis Jon, Tyrion, Dany, (and even Cersei when convincing Randyll to her side!) to demonstrate these skills. And I think I’d like to see Sansa make this kind of empowering monologue — not about her trauma but about her vision, what she wants to do and why, persuading people via word and charisma.

  327. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas: And ironically, S7/S8 indeed ended up deconstructing a lot of protagonists and presenting them as very messed up people. And honestly, I don’t even mind protagonsits taking dark routes… I almost always find it thrilling and interesting. It’s just that I felt everything was becoming too… tense? Heated up? No idea how to properly express myself.

    I agree there’s a lot of value in this idea. Our protagonists are human, they struggle, they make mistakes, the wrong choices, etc. and they are impacted by their past experiences, trauma, emotion, all of it — for better or worse. They don’t always make the right choice — and neither do we in our real lives. I think this is something that is worth exploring in that, is reflective of real life, and I think it’s something GRRM is about too.

  328. Adrianacandle,

    Oh I don’t think that Dany is a psychopath. I think she is narcissist and her care for other people comes from that perspective.

    If it fits her agenda fine, if not, then they can die. Example: people in the North before 706, people in Astapor, Yunkai and Volantis in S6, people of Meereen in S5, people of K and so on.

    So as I said I see her as those communist dictators, noble goals, but full of moral contradictions and ruthlessness.

  329. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas:
    Adrianacandle,

    And ironically, S7/S8 indeed ended up deconstructing a lot of protagonists and presenting them as very messed up people.And honestly, I don’t even mind protagonsits taking dark routes… I almost always find it thrilling and interesting. It’s just that I felt everything was becoming too… tense? Heated up? No idea how to properly express myself.

    I also liked challenging nature of the last season. I remember that Clapton said that Dany didn’t have crown in S7 because she didn’t earn it and a lot of people expected her to have a crown in S8. I expected that as well lol So I was happy that Jon and Dany on the throne never really happened.

  330. Ten Bears: “wrong to love her, wrong to leave her”…

    How did this line not make it into the show????

    I wish it was incorporated somehow and it’s my favourite line. I think it sums up so much with so little. Like really great visual design.

  331. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

    Yes, I think this is pretty much the case. I believe that if someone went to watch GoT for first time now on their own, having no access to online fandoms and such, I kind of feel that a lot of them wouldn’t even think Arya & Jon relationship is such a big deal.

    Oh, Erik. That breaks my heart 🙁 But I think you’re right. If they came into this without any previous knowledge of the books, I think they’d be able to suss out there is a bond there from their season 1 scene? But after that, they may forget…

    My aunt — who is the best aunt in the whole world, who calls herself my ‘acting mum’ (like an ‘acting dean’ because she’d have to take care of me and the other kids (my sisters) while my mum was working, and who would mistakenly refer to Dany and her dragons as ‘Kelsey and her dinosaurs’ (they looked more like dinosaurs to her)…

    Well, she didn’t really get the closeness of Jon and Arya either.

    During my supplementary lectures to her over GoT with family trees, plot maps, pie charts ( 😉 ), I would have to explain this to her.

    I’m sure a lot of it comes from book readers, as it’s really expressed through their thoughts there, and of course from people who went to read books during the course of the show, and people who got aware of this from book readers etc. And yes, screentime is very important and I think with Arya and Jon reuniting in such late stages of the show with only a few episodes left to go, there just wasn’t much potential for this to even be some big thing, based on one scene 66 episodes ago. I have no idea where GRRM is going with this and whether he has some major plans for them or did he change plans during the course of his writing.

    Yup 🙁

    (And I don’t have any idea where GRRM is going with this either)

  332. Adrianacandle,

    I do think that Sansa’s motives were meant to be ambiguous, because in 610 she apologised to Jon and he was like “we need to trust eachother”, so I do think she had lack of trust in him.

  333. Adrianacandle,

    I had experience of watching a lot of people react to GoT after S8 and they do like Arya-Jon reunion, because it’s a Stark reunion, so they react positively to every Stark reunion even if characters never had strong relationship before.

    I mean we as a fandom loved Jon-Sansa reunion in S6 and they never had any relationship. People love Starks and they love to watch them reunite lol

  334. mau,

    Also at the end Jon never responded to her question – will you ever forgive me? in 806. That was explicitly written in the script for The Iron Throne so I feel that relationship ended on a very complicated note.

  335. mau:
    Adrianacandle,

    I do think that Sansa’s motives were meant to be ambiguous, because in 610 she apologised to Jon and he was like “we need to trust eachother”, so I do think she had lack of trust in him.

    I think Ten Bears termed this the Knights of the Vale conundrum! (Re: Sansa’s motives) 🙂 It’s the name I call it in my head.

    I know people have come up with a great many theories, some of them quite good (and involving trust issues)! If the showrunners were going for something ambiguous, I wish they were more explicit with this.

    However, yeah, it may very well have been that Sansa didn’t really fully trust Jon (that’s the impression I got from their 6×09) to carry this through — but I wish they would have explored that more because I think there’s a lot of material there, especially given Sansa’s experiences (I think it’d be natural for her to have trust issues given everything ).

    (Btw, I am sorry if I missed any posts or messages and I’m sorry for all the typos in my posts!)

  336. mau,

    I mean we as a fandom loved Jon-Sansa reunion in S6 and they never had any relationship. People love Starks and they love to watch them reunite lol

    It’s a good scene! I was on a Sansa high because of that! XD

    I think there was a real cathartic value to this scene in that it was the first time two characters from this family found each other again since season 1. I was doubtful, after all the near misses, that Sansa and Jon were going to actually reunite. I was so sure Jon would be gone by the time she arrived — and when it happened? Oh 🙂

    Also at the end Jon never responded to her question – will you ever forgive me? in 806. That was explicitly written in the script for The Iron Throne so I feel that relationship ended on a very complicated note.

    I think so too. From the script:

    Jon stands in front of Sansa. He hasn’t entirely forgiven her for betraying the oath he made her swear in the godswood.

    I think it’s reasonable that their relationship departs the show on that kind of complex note. Not that they don’t love each other — but there issues, maybe issues that won’t ever entirely go away, and I find that pretty realistic (having three siblings myself).

  337. Adrianacandle,

    Ok! I can’t quite recall a scene in which Dany said she wouldn’t let her adversaries hide behind civilians but I’ll keep thinking/looking.

    Found it — It’s Season 8, Episode 4:

    https://genius.com/Game-of-thrones-the-last-of-the-starks-annotated

    INT: DRAGONSTONE WAR ROOM

    DAENERYS lays down the lion figure on the war map.

    GREY WORM: We will storm the city, my queen. We will kill your enemies. All of them.

    VARYS: Your Grace. I promised you I would look you in the eye and speak directly if I ever thought you were making a mistake. This is a mistake.

    DAENERYS: You saw my child fall from the sky.

    VARYS: (nods)

    DAENERYS: They took Missandei.

    VARYS: Cersei needs to be destroyed, but if we attack King’s Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die. That is why Cersei is bringing them into the Red Keep. These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, Your Grace. Do not destroy the city you came to save. Do not become what you have always struggled to defeat.

    DAENERYS: Do you believe we’re here for a reason, Lord Varys? I’m here to free the world from tyrants. That is my destiny and I will serve it, no matter the cost.

    VARYS is silent.

    TYRION: It could be a fortnight before Jon and the allied armies make it to King’s Landing. In the meantime, demand Cersei surrender. Offer her her life in exchange for the throne. If there’s a chance to avoid the coming slaughter, we should make the effort.

    DAENERYS: Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps it’s good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them.

    DAENERYS and GREY WORM exit.

  338. Jai,

    Okay. Thanks for finding that for me, Jai. I think I was looking for a scene in which Dany was saying word-for-word that she would not let adversaries hide behind civilians and as a result, my key word searches were unsuccessful.

    So yes, in that scene, Dany seems done with going the round-about-routes proposed by Tyrion (sieges, tunnels, distraction, etc.) and is prepared to wage war in the city this time and go for the Red Keep, despite the people-shield. And she doesn’t think Cersei will accept her offer.

    Although, this feels different from blazing the city street by street after it surrendered (after she’s won) rather than making a beeline for the Red Keep where Cersei is to take the throne (even when she’s razing the city after surrender, she’s not really narrowing her target to the Red Keep… setting the entire city on fire feels even worse).

  339. Adrianacandle,

    ”I think there are translation challenges from books (where we can access the characters’ thoughts) to screen (where we can’t do the same unless we have a voice over).

    So the other option would be to have Jon say Arya’s name aloud. Jon doesn’t typically talk about his siblings or family, not unprompted and not often. And not in the books either. He only says Arya’s name a handful a times aloud in the books, even, but most of our access to that relationship lives in his thoughts (and Arya’s thoughts as well).”

    Sansa’s extensive scenes with Jon from S6e3? on presented an ideal opportunity to “say Arya’s name,” reminisce about her, and remind the audience of their bond.

    What did he talk about instead? Old Nan’s soup.

  340. Ten Bears,

    Sansa’s extensive scenes with Jon from S6e3? on presented an ideal opportunity to “say Arya’s name,” reminisce about her, and remind the audience of their bond.

    What did he talk about instead? Old Nan’s soup.

    Maybe Old Nan’s soup was code for Arya?? 🙂

    However, we also didn’t get to see the entirety of that conversation, just the dinner + the wildlings owe you their lives + take Winterfell back portion, which is a shame. The off-screen portion would be when, I’d imagine, Sansa would share news with Jon over what Brienne told her about Arya.

    (Hey, did you get the screencap of Maisie William’s interview?)

  341. Adrianacandle,

    A couple of other quick comments about translating Jon’s unspoken thoughts about Arya to the screen:

    • (1) The writers showed they were adept at inserting callbacks to reveal a character’s thoughts and emotions about an absent character.

    • Example: Arya’s unresolved emotions about Sandor. In S5 she recounted to Jaqen 2.0 that she had left the Hound to die, insisting she hated him and wanted him to suffer. Jaqen 2.0 whacked her with the bullsh*t stick, because: A girl lies to me. To the Many-Faced God… To herself.”
    In S6, she confessed to the Waif that she had taken the Hound off her list, because she did… and she did not want him dead any longer: she was confused.
    These two callbacks took maybe a minute or two of screentime. The same kind of callbacks of Arya during Jon’s scenes could have easily been accomplished.

    • (2) Aside from the notable absence of any curiosity about Arya or any mention of Arya by Jon during Jon’s extensive scenes with Sansa from early S6 to S7e2, his feelings for his little sister and concern for her well-being should have been the natural topics of conversation with Sandor, Gendry, Beric, and Thoros in S7e5 and e6. Jon had to know that Sandor was “the man” watching over Arya whom Arya didn’t want to leave, until Brienne savagely beat him. (LF knew Brienne had beaten the Hound; Jon surely did as well.)

    • (3) Between Sandor, Gendry, Beric and Thoros, Jon’s fellow wight hunters had spent significant time and developed significant relationships with Arya almost continuously from the time she escaped KL in S1e10 through Brienne’s encounter with Sandor in S4e10.
    Yet, not once did any of them ask Jon about his “little sister” and not once did Jon ask Sandor or any of the others about her.
    These characters’ long conversations in “Eastwatch” and “Beyond the Wall” could have and should have included reminiscing about Jon’s sister, whom they all knew so well. What did we get? Not a single word from any of them to Jon or from Jon.
    That was not normal human behavior. It was also a host of bypassed opportunities to reveal Jon’s thoughts and emotions about his little sister.
    It was almost as if he didn’t give a sh*t.

    • (4) Despite the challenges of portraying book! characters’ unspoken thoughts in dialogue of their onscreen counterparts, the show was able to accomplish this to demonstrate Arya’s love and longing for Jon.
    – For example, after spotting Polliver with Needle in S4e1, she ignored Sandor’’s demands (“get back here!”) and kept marching towards the Inn full of soldiers because “My brother gave me that sword!”
    -In S4e7, Sandor reminded us again that Jon gave Arya that sword she was cleaning, while his brother gave him a disfigured face.
    – In S4e10, Arya was begging and pleading with the ship captain to take her to the Wall. In her S6 “Game of Faces” session in Braavos her recital of “Arya Stark’s family” named Jon as her brother, before a whack! prompted a correction to “half-brother.”
    – In S7e2, immediatedly upon learning that Jon had led an army from CB and and taken back WF from the Boltons, Arya dropped everything and headed north back to WF.
    – Book readers have lavished praise on Maisie Williams for capturing, with facial expressions alone, the emotion of the books’
    Needle was Jon Snow’s Smile” internal monologue (including the part where she reminisces how Jon used to muss her hair and call her ‘little sister’ and suddenly there were tears in her eyes).

    • (5) I’m perplexed why these reminders were one-sided: Show! Arya reminded us how she missed Jon and thought about him, yet it was as if show! Jon got amnesia and forgot all about his little sister.

    • (6) – Was there a logical justification for eliding Jon’s feelings for his beloved little sister?
    – Was there a reason why the show almost seemed to deliberately try to avoid the two of them being in the same scene together* in S8?
    – Was there really a time crunch that prohibited any meaningful scenes between Jon and Arya?

    *(Except for their abbreviated reunion in S8e1 and the “last of the Starks” gathering in the godswood in S8e4, I don’t recall Jon and Arya in any scenes together in WF.)

    • (7) (Caution: Brief whining to follow.)
    – They should’ve left all of Euron’s scenes on the cutting room floor, and used that time for Jon & Arya to spend a some quality time together.
    – They should’ve had Arya accompany Jon on his voyage to CB before she sailed away on her adventure to the uncharted west. They deserved, and we deserved, a bookend scene to mirror their beautiful farewell scene in S2e1.

  342. Adrianacandle,

    Just got the screencap! Thank you!
    I had watched the trailer and read a synopsis of “Two Weeks to Live” a few months back.

    The article you were kind enough to screenshot has more details and new photographs. I’m going to read it with my morning coffee, and then research on line to see if there is any studio executive with half a brain who’s realized that this series should be broadcast in the U.S. too:

    Maisie Williams has a built-in fan base. Her co-star Sian Clifford also co-starred in “Fleabag” which found a huge audience here and won lots of Emmys. The early reviews of “Two Weeks to Live” have been overwhelmingly positive.

    Last but not least, production of TV shows and movies has been suspended for months due to the worldwide sh*tshow. First run shows are at a premium. We don’t need more reruns.
    C’mon SkyTV! Take my money!

  343. Ten Bears,

    These two callbacks took maybe a minute or two of screentime. The same kind of callbacks of Arya during Jon’s scenes could have easily been accomplished.

    I don’t know what other answer I can provide that I haven’t given (in the form of speculation). Perhaps the writers felt it wasn’t suited to Jon’s character, that he and Arya are different in this regard (making this stuff seem natural). I don’t know. Jon’s not so talkative (he didn’t really do much talking about his siblings until the topic arose — like Sam telling him about meeting Bran, learning about the Red Wedding off-screen).

    However, I can’t answer these writing choices, I can only speculate and I don’t think that’s really enough. D&D are probably the only ones who can explain their writing choices because I don’t have a source to reference from. I mean, in interviews, they talk about the close bond between Jon and Arya but I don’t think that translated well to screen.

    • (2) Aside from the notable absence of any curiosity about Arya or any mention of Arya by Jon during Jon’s extensive scenes with Sansa from early S6 to S7e2, his feelings for his little sister and concern for her well-being should have been the natural topics of conversation with Sandor, Gendry, Beric, and Thoros in S7e5 and e6. Jon had to know that Sandor was “the man” watching over Arya whom Arya didn’t want to leave, until Brienne savagely beat him. (LF knew Brienne had beaten the Hound; Jon surely did as well.)

    Perhaps but it’s possible Jon doesn’t know about Sandor. We don’t know what Brienne shared or what Sansa shared. I expect they told him Brienne saw Arya was alive but I don’t know what other information was exchanged.

    I think it is odd that Arya was not brought up in these conversations but I think these would be good questions for the writers if you ever have an opportunity to ask them.

    To me, this felt rather glaring.

    That was not normal human behavior. It was also a host of bypassed opportunities to reveal Jon’s thoughts and emotions about his little sister.

    I think that’s a fair criticism of how these writers characterized their interactions (ignoring the topic of somebody important who connects them all) but I don’t know — if Jon wasn’t talking about Arya with Sam, I don’t know that he would with these guys.

    • (4) Despite the challenges of portraying book! characters’ unspoken thoughts in dialogue of their onscreen counterparts, the show was able to accomplish this to demonstrate Arya’s love and longing for Jon.
    – For example, after spotting Polliver with Needle in S4e1, she ignored Sandor’’s demands (“get back here!”) and kept marching towards the Inn full of soldiers because “My brother gave me that sword!”
    -In S4e7, Sandor reminded us again that Jon gave Arya that sword she was cleaning, while his brother gave him a disfigured face.

    Perhaps if Jon had a momento from Arya, this would help create some similar opportunities?

    I don’t know what I can say, dude. I’ve tried to speculate the best I can as to why the writers made these choices but that’s all I’ve got. I can’t add anything new to this :/

    I understand where you’re coming from and I don’t think they did a great job of translating their very tightly bonded relationship from the books to the show. I don’t know if they knew how to with Jon’s character without maybe it appearing kind of weird?

    I don’t know…. Maybe somebody else who felt differently can offer something to this?

    – They should’ve left all of Euron’s scenes on the cutting room floor, and used that time for Jon & Arya to spend a some quality time together.
    – They should’ve had Arya accompany Jon on his voyage to CB before she sailed away on her adventure to the uncharted west. They deserved, and we deserved, a bookend scene to mirror their beautiful farewell scene in S2e1.

    I definitely would have wished this 🙁

  344. mau,

    “I mean we as a fandom loved Jon-Sansa reunion in S6 and they never had any relationship. People love Starks and they love to watch them reunite…”

    The Sansa – Jon reunion is a perfect example of a great scene when the emotion, the cinematography, the framing, the timing, the acting, and the music all come together.
    My favorite part? After Jon hears the horn signaling visitors arriving and comes out to take a look, and then looks stunned like he can’t believe his eyes before rushing over and embracing Sansa. Nice build up and anticipation.

  345. Ten Bears,

    Oh good!! I’m glad you got it!! (Btw, have you seen The Marvelous Mrs Maisel yet??)

    Last but not least, production of TV shows and movies has been suspended for months due to the worldwide sh*tshow. First run shows are at a premium. We don’t need more reruns.
    C’mon SkyTV! Take my money

    Yeah. Quite a few series I’ve been looking forward to have been postponed, which is a huge bummer. I’m worried that it’s going to be eons until we see His Dark Materials season 2 (and now that Tron has read the books, we can discuss book details too with the show!!). For now, I’ve been watching a lot of home renovation shows, The Great Canadian Baking Show (I learned how important it is to blind bake a pie!), and I’ve been considering giving Gilmore Girls a rewatch for some nice light stuff while I sand and laser.

    So any new show to look forward to feels like… a gift!! 😀

  346. Adrianacandle,

    ”Me too! That’s why I was so excited by that season 4 scene you posted with Sansa and LF! “Shall we go?”

    Oh, that’s right! That clip is part of the prelude to the next Musical Interlude. I’ll try to get to that later…
    I like watching those two clips back to back: In the second, as Sansa appears in her new dress and sashays down the stairs framed by sunlight, LF practically drools – sort of a visual manifestation of her earlier statement in the first clip: “I know what you want.

  347. Ten Bears: Oh, that’s right! That clip is part of the prelude to the next Musical Interlude. I’ll try to get to that later…
    I like watching those two clips back to back: In the second, as Sansa appears in her new dress and sashays down the stairs framed by sunlight, LF practically drools – sort of a visual manifestation of her earlier statement in the first clip: “I know what you want.”

    Yeah! (And nice look at those clips!)

    And I look forward to the next part of your musical interlude! 🙂

    Since I’ve been awake for 32 hours at this point, I’m going to try and achieve a few hours of dormancy now (the world is dividing into several overlays by now and there’s a slight shake…) but I feel so wired.

  348. Adrianacandle,

    “Yeah, I think that feels a bit too contradictory for them to do if they’re supposed to be creating this path for her piece by piece if they were scripting Dany to be a psychopath and I don’t think they were. Then they’re blatantly contradicting their own efforts and I don’t think 1) that’s what they’re doing or 2) that’d be very good writing. This sounds a little too conspiracy-theory to me (again, if they were scripting Dany as a psychopath).”

    Forgive me to intervene here, but wasn’t the fact that she didn’t care about the consequences a little bit too problematic? Yes, she did have empathy, but she didn’t think at all what her actions would lead to, e.g. when she freed the Astapori (by slaughtering everyone with a tokar) or when she crucified the masters. That to me seems very egoistic too and egoism can be a source of various disorders. As you said, she believed in her own propaganda, or image, but she made the propaganda herself (especially in the show).
    Perhaps, the problem with Dany was that she was a queen in the eyes of her followers, and no one dared to openly refuse to carry orders out. She didn’t learn to be in the ranks. She only learned to pass orders around (especially in the books, the show downplayed this side).
    That said, I think all the elements of “crazy” Dany were there in the show. A quick temper, egoistic perspective (re: Hizdar: so their reasons are wrong and yours are right?), prone to violence especially with the dragons, but also with the Unsullied.
    So I think D&D’s question “why are you surprised” is a valid one.

  349. Efi,

    Forgive me to intervene here, but wasn’t the fact that she didn’t care about the consequences a little bit too problematic? Yes, she did have empathy, but she didn’t think at all what her actions would lead to, e.g. when she freed the Astapori (by slaughtering everyone with a tokar) or when she crucified the masters.
    That to me seems very egoistic too and egoism can be a source of various disorders.

    Are you talking about the books or the show?

    In the books, she does care about the consequences of what happened in Astapor and she doesn’t want it to happen again, that’s a big motivator for her decisions in ADWD.

    In the show and books: I don’t know if that’s so much a case of not caring, I think it’s lack of failing to consider, foresee, or plan for the consequences. And it might be (in the show), that she didn’t see these as consequences and that is a result of a rigid worldview and who she is defining as the oppressed. And this can also be dangerous.

    While I’d avoid diagnosing any disorder since I’m not formally trained and there are dangers to armchair psychology, this might very well be related to ego issues.

    As you said, she believed in her own propaganda, or image, but she made the propaganda herself (especially in the show).

    I think it was somebody else who said this but yes, I think this was more portrayed in the show.

    Perhaps, the problem with Dany was that she was a queen in the yes of her followers, and no one dared to openly refuse to carry orders out. She didn’t learn to be in the ranks. She only learned to pass orders around (especially in the books, the show downplayed this side).

    Are you talking about decisions or orders?

    With decisions: Oh, yes, she does have dark impulses but there are those who question her decisions/thinking that live to see another day (off the top of my head: Missandei, Jorah, Varys, Tyrion especially — it’s only when they commit treason that she has Varys executed and Tyrion imprisoned to await execution).

    With orders: Robb and Jon have executed men for refusal to obey orders.

    That said, I think all the elements of “crazy” Dany were there in the show. A quick temper, egoistic perspective (re: Hizdar: so their reasons are wrong and yours are right?), prone to violence especially with the dragons, but also with the Unsullied.
    So I think D&D’s question “why are you surprised” is a valid one.

    I’d also argue these qualities apply to some extent to others as well, especially in the books.

    However, I believe you’ve also said they presented Dany as a hero so, with that, I think it’s reasonable that many are surprised (or by how her decision to descend into villainy occurred).

    (Btw, never feel as though you can’t reply to my response to other people! When I put my opinions out here, they’re for anybody to reply to! 🙂 )

  350. Adrianacandle,

    Efi: ”As you said, she believed in her own propaganda, or image, but she made the propaganda herself (especially in the show).”

    adrianacandle: “I think it was somebody else who said this but yes, I think this was more portrayed in the show.”

    ——-
    If I may jump in…
    From my (cynical) perceptions of the portrayals on the show:

    – Dany had a bunch of grandiose campaign slogans and talking points like “Break the Wheel” [of rotating noble houses crushing the common folk] and “leave the world a better place” along with appealing nicknames like “Breaker of Chains.”

    Yet, I don’t think I ever heard any specific details about how exactly she aimed to achieve her lofty objectives – other than to depose the incumbent monarch on the throne.

    – And yes, a lot of her bluster sounded like self-created propaganda and self-crafted image that
    she may have started to believe herself. (In a way, her buzzwords and catch phrases reminded me of a self-serving politician boasting “I’m going to drain the swamp” and “Only I can fix it” with no actual plans, while labeling his predecessors and opponents as “corrupt” and “crooked.”)

    – I wasn’t sure if she had herself believing that she’d be welcomed with open arms as a savior by the people she claimed to want to liberate.
    (There was some talk early in the show – or maybe in the books? – that there was widespread grassroots support for a Targaryen Restoration. I was never really sure if Illyrio, Varys and their friends were just saying this to encourage Viserys to make a move to replace Robert because they thought Robert was a crappy king; because they were scheming to seize power themselves behind the scenes; or because they genuinely felt a regime change was needed “for the good of the realm.”)

    Anyway, I wasn’t quite sure why Dany seemed to assume that the people would cheer her triumphant return and spontaneously rise up against Cersei. Maybe the crowd-surfing “Mhysa” incident had her drinking her own Kool-Aid, or reinforced some kind of Messianic complex? I’m not sure. It’s one thing to free slaves from bondage and bask in their gratitude. However, as miserable as the “common folk” might be in their everyday lives, there were no slaves to free where she was going. The “breaker of chains” narrative kind of fell flat.

    • What really struck me was that she aimed to achieve her professed objective – the “liberation” of a supposedly oppressed populus – by a massive invasion, accompanied by foreign armies and WMDs. She ought to have foreseen that her invasion would be problematic, for several reasons:

    – First of all, her assertion that she didn’t want to be “queen of the ashes” when rejecting the option of simply nuking the Red Keep to bring about a swift transition of power (with relatively minimal collateral damage) was kind of shaky:

    For one thing, proceeding with Tyrion’s alternative “clever plans” wound up costing the lives of thousands of her own people, eliminating her allies, and decimating her navy. Hindsight is 20-20 of course, and even the best plans can backfire spectacularly in the fog of war, so I’ll give her a pass on that.

    However, Dany’s (well, Tyrion’s) supposedly kinder and gentler plans to mount a siege of KL to force Cersei to surrender and thereby spare the denizens of KL from suffering, were anything but humanitarian: The show repeatedly reminded us (e.g., Bronn’s pre-Blackwater explanation; and Stannis’s accounts of the Siege of Storm’s End) that a siege is no picnic. Sieges necessarily result in mass starvation, death and disease; rioting, violence and lawlessness; and general social and economic collapse.

    Meanwhile, so long as Cersei’s wine cellar and cupboards were well-stocked, the plight of her starving people would hardly persuade her to give up the throne and surrender the city.
    Even a beneficent ruler might be reluctant to throw in the towel: From what I could tell based on show! history, “peaceful” surrender is often followed by a violent sack of the city, mass rape, murder, and pillaging. (And yes, I’m looking at you Tywin and Gregor.) That Grey Worm and his crew, along with Road Rage Dany, wound up brutally executing surrendering soldiers and incinerating civilians after “the Bells” sounded, only reinforced that a siege is hardly an effective or humane way of capturing a city – or convincing the citizenry to rise up and revolt against their ruler.

    • Also, I don’t get how Dany expected the KL residents to revolt, and then punished them for failing to do so:

    -Even if they wanted to, were unarmed noncombatants – including women, children and the elderly – supposed to overthrow Cersei by throwing cow pies at her soldiers?

    – Dany kind of misread her audience, i.e., the receptiveness of the people for violent regime change. The continent had just been through years of wars and upheaval. Sure, Cersei was an unhinged, self-centered ruler who had just taken power by blowing up the Sept and incinerating her adversaries (and oppressors), but the last thing the common folk would want is to be conscripted to “fight in someone else’s war.” As nasty as Cersei might be, a population sick and tired of war, sacrifice and suffering would hardly be in the mood for a revolution against their home-grown queen, or to embrace a new wannabe queen spouting empty platitudes and promises to free them from “tyranny.”

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that Dany didn’t articulate how she was going to “make a better world” for her would-be subjects; or give them a good reason to love and welcome her – and risk their lives to forcibly evict Cersei from the Red Keep. If anything, the people would blame Dany for their misery, whether from a siege or from the newest war brought to their shores. They were f*cked either way.

    . [Excuse me if I’m boring you with a reference to a song lyric]:
    From the vantage point of weary everyday commoners and conscripts, the reaction to Dany’s arrival, with promises to oust the tyrant in power, would probably be something like…

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

    (from “We Won’t Get Fooled Again” by the Who.)

    P.S. Paraphrasing book! Stannis or book! Davos (I forget who said this and the exact wording), the best talking point Dany had was that she saved the realm to deserve the throne, instead of taking the throne to save the realm. Or something like that.

    She ought to have had surrogates disseminate the accounts of her heroics at the Frozen Lake and her defense of WF against the AotD, or allowed sufficient time for first-hand accounts to be reported throughout the seven kingdoms. (Just tell Hot Pie @ Crossroads. The news would be broadcast throughout the continent in a matter of days.)

    Dany’s rashness in insisting on heading south right away to take out Cersei didn’t endear her to her new allies, who counseled her to give their armies a chance to rest and recover after the big blowout. It also deprived Dany of the opportunity to let the facts persuade the people to embrace her, rather than rely on empty platitudes and propaganda. (After all, Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” propaganda speech was effective because in the absence of a counter-narrative, it allowed her to portray Dany as a “foreign invader” who’d brought savages to their shores to rape, pillage and murder.)

    It’s kind of tragic that Dany didn’t need to buy into her own self-entitled bullsh*t that she “was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms.” With a little humility and patience she might very well have attained the throne based on her merits instead of her family name, dragons, or “fear.”

    I don’t know if there was a message intended by Dany’s fall. (I do like your thoughts about self-image and propaganda. I’ve always perceived truth vs. propaganda and revisionist history as a recurring theme throughout the show, although it kind of fell by the wayside towards the end.)

    I’m tempted to think that in simplistic terms, the lesson could be:
    Don’t drink your own Kool-Aid.

    Let’s see if the Big Kahuna ever weighs in on Dany’s transformation from heroine to supervillain, assuming that nuking KL is the ending he has in store for her.

  351. Ten Bears,

    I wasn’t sure if she had herself believing that she’d be welcomed with open arms as a savior by the people she claimed to want to liberate.

    Anyway, I wasn’t quite sure why Dany seemed to assume that the people would cheer her triumphant return and spontaneously rise up against Cersei. Maybe the crowd-surfing “Mhysa” incident had her drinking her own Kool-Aid, or reinforced some kind of Messianic complex? I’m not sure. It’s one thing to free slaves from bondage and bask in their gratitude. However, as miserable as the “common folk” might be in their everyday lives, there were no slaves to free where she was going. The “breaker of chains” narrative kind of fell flat.

    I think Dany does question this in the show and in the books:

    From 4×05:

    Jorah: There’s other news. From Yunkai. Without the Unsullied to enforce your rule, the Wise Masters have retaken control of the city. They’ve reenslaved the freedmen who stayed behind and sworn to take revenge against you. And in Astapor, the council you installed to rule over the city has been overthrown by a butcher named Cleon who’s declared himself “His Imperial Majesty.”

    Dany: Please leave me. Not you, Jorah. It appears my liberation of Slaver’s Bay isn’t going quite as planned.

    Jorah: You could sail for Westeros and leave it all behind. A boy sits on the Iron Throne. A boy many believe to be a bastard with no right to it. They’ve never been more vulnerable.

    Dany: You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. That all worked out well. How can I rule seven kingdoms if I can’t control Slaver’s Bay? Why should anyone trust me? Why should anyone follow me?

    Jorah: You’re a Targaryen. You’re the Mother of Dragons.

    Dany: I need to be more than that. I will not let those I have freed slide back into chains. I will not sail for Westeros.

    This seems to line up with some of the content from this passage from ADWD (after discussing marrying Hizdahr for peace).

    “It is not,” she agreed, “but it is important to me that you should understand. My people are bleeding. Dying. A queen belongs not to herself, but to the realm. Marriage or carnage, those are my choices. A wedding or a war.”

    “Your Grace, may I speak frankly?”

    “Always.”

    “There is a third choice.”

    “Westeros?”

    He nodded. “I am sworn to serve Your Grace, and to keep you safe from harm wherever you may go. My place is by your side, whether here or in King’s Landing… but your place is back in Westeros, upon the Iron Throne that was your father’s. The Seven Kingdoms will never accept Hizdahr zo Loraq as king.”

    “No more than Meereen will accept Daenerys Targaryen as queen. The Green Grace has the right of that. I need a king beside me, a king of old Ghiscari blood. Elsewise they will always see me as the uncouth barbarian who smashed through their gates, impaled their kin on spikes, and stole their wealth.”

    “In Westeros you will be the lost child who returns to gladden her father’s heart. Your people will cheer when you ride by, and all good men will love you.”

    “Westeros is far away.”

    “Lingering here will never bring it any closer. The sooner we take our leave of this place—”

    “I know. I do.” Dany did not know how to make him see. She wanted Westeros as much as he did, but first she must heal Meereen. “Ninety days is a long time. Hizdahr may fail. And if he does, the trying buys me time. Time to make alliances, to strengthen my defenses, to—”

    “And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?”

    “Her duty.” The word felt cold upon her tongue.”

    As for a plan, I don’t recall one every being outlined. I think she had the notion to dismantle the system and remake the realm how she wanted — there’s definitely oppression in feudalism but no buying and selling of people like property, no slavery in that regard. There are thralls in the Iron Islands but they’re not bought and sold, they’re captured and forced to be in service. They’re also allowed to have kids that are born free. And there’s the system of feudalism itself, which is pretty oppressive to the common folk as they are at the mercy of their lords, but I hardly think Dany wanted to end feudalism.

    But I don’t know of any other character who came up with a real plan for how to make Westeros better. There’s talk of defending Westeros from the Others and repairing the Wall (this stuff is coming from Jon and Stannis). And while there was a whole lot of talk about being a good king/queen (or a benevolent one), I don’t recall any step by step plans from contenders for the throne on how to improve the conditions (however, there might very well be some chapters/passages/scenes that I’m completely blanking on and if there is and somebody remembers, definitely quote them! I’ll look into that myself.)

    —-

    However, Dany’s (well, Tyrion’s) supposedly kinder and gentler plans to mount a siege of KL to force Cersei to surrender and thereby spare the denizens of KL from suffering, were anything but humanitarian: The show repeatedly reminded us (e.g., Bronn’s pre-Blackwater explanation; and Stannis’s accounts of the Siege of Storm’s End) that a siege is no picnic. Sieges necessarily result in mass starvation, death and disease; rioting, violence and lawlessness; and general social and economic collapse.

    Yes. Alt Shift X noted in the review for 8×04, “Sure, maybe starving the people will motivate them, but that defeats the whole purpose of taking the city without hurting innocents,” and suggested, “A much better solution to the Cersei problem is standing right there. Arya is a highly trained Faceless assassin. Last season, she infiltrated the Twins, wore Walder Frey’s skin, and wiped out a whole house. Surely she could sneak in and kill Cersei.

    Even a beneficent ruler might be reluctant to throw in the towel: From what I could tell based on show! history, “peaceful” surrender is often followed by a violent sack of the city, mass rape, murder, and pillaging. (And yes, I’m looking at you Tywin and Gregor.)

    Well, Tywin didn’t sack a surrendered city (here is a link to a screenshot about this event on the asoiaf wiki page) — Aerys hadn’t surrendered. Jaime was urging Aerys to allow him to negotiate but Aerys refused. Tywin came to the city under the guise of loyalty and that’s when the sack happened.

  352. Adrianacandle,

    <“In Westeros you will be the lost child who returns to gladden her father’s heart. Your people will cheer when you ride by, and all good men will love you.”

    Who said this to her (in the books, I assume)?

    On the show, there didn’t appear to be any indication the people would automatically cheer her upon her return or that “all good men will live” her.

    On the show, after sickbed Jon (unnecessarily) abdicated his crown as KitN and “bent the knee” to Queen Daenerys, thereby subjugating the North to her rule, he reassured her that his people would accept her once they saw her for who she is. (Or something like that.)

    Jon completely whiffed on that optimistic prediction. The Northerners didn’t trust her or accept her. Sansa “Miss Courtesy” Stark gave her the stink eye upon her arrival eye, resented her from the start, and never wanted to get to know her. Even my dear Arya jumped on the xenophobic “we don’t like your girlfriend” bandwagon for no good reason.*

    Was there any reason (on the show) to suggest that the majority of the people, or any of the people, were giddy with anticipation for the return of a Targaryen? From that book! quote, I can understand Dany believing the hype that a warm welcome awaited her.

    * More on Arya’s reaction a bit later…

  353. Ten Bears,

    Who said this to her (in the books, I assume)?

    I’m sorry! It was Barristan who said that.

    Was there any reason (on the show) to suggest that the majority of the people, or any of the people, were giddy with anticipation for the return of a Targaryen? From that book! quote, I can understand Dany believing the hype that a warm welcome awaited her.

    On the show, with the people? Perhaps with Dorne (who did join Dany’s side) but the show Dorne storyline didn’t really follow the books. They allied with Dany to get their revenge against Cersei, which seemed to be the case for Olenna and Highgarden too while Yara wanted Dany’s help to get rid of Euron. Varys seemed pretty pumped about Daenerys initially. However, I don’t recall yearning for a Targaryen restoration though on the show.

    But this is something Illyrio told Viserys and Daenerys (in 1×01): “It won’t be long now. Soon, you will cross the Narrow Sea and take back your father’s throne. The people drink secret toasts to your health… they cry out for their true king.”

    However, Dany seems to doubt it in 7×02: “They cry out for their true queen? They drink secret toasts to my health? People used to tell my brother that sort of thing, and he was stupid enough to believe them.”

    Now, in the books, Oberyn and Doran seemed to support a Targaryen restoration of sorts (I think as revenge against the Lannisters?) but Oberyn is mentioned to have made preparations to raise an army under Viserys:

    ASOS, Tyrion VI:

    His father ignored the sally. “Prince Oberyn’s presence here is unfortunate. His brother is a cautious man, a reasoned man, subtle, deliberate, even indolent to a degree. He is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action. But Oberyn has always been half-mad.”

    “Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?”

    “No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn’s bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it.”

    But that’s the books 🙂 I don’t know if this is so much for the sake of a Targ restoration but to unseat the Lannisters and get their revenge. Kevin would be able to answer that since he knows much more about Dorne, I think it’s one of his favourite parts of the story.

  354. Adrianacandle,

    ”Alt Shift X noted in the review for 8×04, “Sure, maybe starving the people will motivate them, but that defeats the whole purpose of taking the city without hurting innocents,” and suggested, “A much better solution to the Cersei problem is standing right there. Arya is a highly trained Faceless assassin. Last season, she infiltrated the Twins, wore Walder Frey’s skin, and wiped out a whole house. Surely she could sneak in and kill Cersei.”

    For whatever reason (maybe humility?), Arya never publicized her FM assassin credentials. She downplayed her martial skills when reunited with Jon and he asked her if she’d ever used Needle. (”Once or twice.”) I was hoping she’d share her House Frey extermination exploits with Sansa after Sansa found Arya’s facemask satchel; that never happened.

    As far as I could tell, nobody was aware that
    a “much better solution to the Cersei problem [was] standing right there.”

    Arya did set out on that infiltration & assassination mission to “sneak in and kill Cersei.”
    She departed WF while the post-battle celebration was still in progress, apparently without telling anyone.

    While I’m not sure about distances and travel times, it looked like Dany & co. got to KL first despite Arya’s head start. Arguably, Arya would have successfully completed her mission had Dany arrived just a few minutes later – or not firebombed the city when she got there.

    Alt Shift X’s suggestion sounded elegant: No need for a drawn-out siege. Send in ASNAWP. Cersei problem solved. However, weren’t Tyrion & Dany screwing around with attempted sieges of KL and related clever plans in early S7, before Arya even made it home to WF in S7e4? I thought that by that time, Dany thought, “F*ck it. I’m going to hop on my dragon and go incinerate Lannister troops.”

    Maybe my chronology is out of whack. I thought Dany abandoned the siege idea, or at least put it on hold, to activate Tyrion Clever Plan #45 aka Wight Hunt to bag a live zombie to persuade Cersei to halt hostilities while they dealt with the WW threat.

    Or was Alt Shift X suggesting that Team Dany + Jon were mounting a siege in S8? If so, I did not realize that’s what they were doing when they got to KL in S8e4 or e5. I thought their approach had shifted to Tyrion giving a lame “Your baby, your baby, please surrender” speech to Cersei outside the city walls. When that understandably failed, Dany went with the nuclear option, and the rest is history.

    Did I overlook a S8 siege? I thought Dany had run out of patience for that kind of thing.

    Now, I suppose Arya could have volunteered to go on a commando mission when the alliance was arguing with Dany about giving their troops a breather before heading south. A siege was off the table at that point, wasn’t it?

    Plus, I suspect Dany wanted to go full-on shock and awe, and wouldn’t want to screw around with stealth commando operations. (Tyrion’s disastrous Casterly Rock assault scheme likely soured her on such stealth missions.)

    And I have to assume that if Arya had proposed going on a one-woman infiltration and assassination mission, Jon would have immediately vetoed it. (This is pure speculation: Perhaps this is one of the reasons Arya decided to leave WF and ride for KL without telling anyone.)

    Of course, as others have commented, from a storytelling perspective, after Arya had successfully terminated Walder Frey, his damn moron sons, the rest of the House Frey Red Wedding perpetrators, the King of the Zombies, and all of his WW lieutenants and 100,000 undead soldiers, it would be “overkill” if Arya also whacked the last Big Bad.

    Now, would I have enjoyed it? Absolutely. 🙂

    🗡👸🏻

  355. Adrianacandle,

    Thanks! It looks like you covered the Targ Restoration factions and and Targ “Welcome Home” hype in the books vs. show.

    From Dany’s quote in the show that you excerpted (S7e2?), it appears she didn’t buy into the homecoming hype like her “stupid” brother.

    (And so… Why then would she expect the people of KL to love her?)

  356. Ten Bears,

    For whatever reason (maybe humility?), Arya never publicized her FM assassin credentials. She downplayed her martial skills when reunited with Jon and he asked her if she’d ever used Needle. (”Once or twice.”) I was hoping she’d share her House Frey extermination exploits with Sansa after Sansa found Arya’s facemask satchel; that never happened.
    As far as I could tell, nobody was aware that
    a “much better solution to the Cersei problem [was] standing right there.”
    Arya did set out on that infiltration & assassination mission to “sneak in and kill Cersei.”

    Yes, Sansa was aware of Arya’s fighting skills and face… stuff (to some extent, Arya said she could switch faces), but probably not her ninja abilities. At most, Jon was only aware Arya killed the Night King.

    However, Arya herself might have offered this solution..? She was going to King’s Landing anyway to kill Cersei…

    While I’m not sure about distances and travel times, it looked like Dany & co. got to KL first despite Arya’s head start. Arguably, Arya would have successfully completed her mission had Dany arrived just a few minutes later – or not firebombed the city when she got there.

    Yeah, the timelines are super fuzzy in the show :/ They seem to travel at the speed needed for the plot. The distances between Winterfell and Dragonstone, as well as Winterfell and King’s Landing (a month?) are quite large.

    Alt Shift X’s suggestion sounded elegant: No need for a drawn-out siege. Send in ASNAWP. Cersei problem solved. However, weren’t Tyrion & Dany screwing around with attempted sieges of KL and related clever plans in early S7, before Arya even made it home to WF in S7e4? I thought that by that time, Dany thought, “F*ck it. I’m going to hop on my dragon and go incinerate Lannister troops.”

    I believe they settled on a siege plan in 7×01. However, after Cersei and Euron destroy Dany’s allies, Dany wants to attack the Red Keep because that’s where her enemies are. Tyrion advises against this and when Dany asks Jon for his opinion, Jon’s also against this. During the 8×04 during the Winterfell war council (the one Arya is present at), Dany is convinced again of the siege plan.

    Plus, I suspect Dany wanted to go full-on shock and awe, and wouldn’t want to screw around with stealth commando operations. (Tyrion’s disastrous Casterly Rock assault scheme likely soured her on such stealth missions.)

    I don’t know if it was about shock and awe but I did see discussion that perhaps attacking the Red Keep and getting at Cersei would have been the most efficient way to do this. I once heard a GoT reviewer say, “There’s no nice way to take a city,” (in regard to the expectation that Dany has to take the city through benevolent means) and Alt Shift X says, “This expectation that Dany has to capture the capital gently is unreasonable.”

    Which I think is true. I mean, revolutions are bloody things and a siege is not kind or peaceful. It’s pretty bad. It puts people into desperate and painful situations.

    And I have to assume that if Arya had proposed going on a one-woman infiltration and assassination mission, Jon would have immediately vetoed it. (This is pure speculation: Perhaps this is one of the reasons Arya decided to leave WF and ride for KL without telling anyone.)

    Well, Jon did let her fight in the war against the dead — which was certainly pretty dangerous because they really weren’t sure of the odds. In fact, they were pretty damn crappy odds since Bran didn’t even know if dragonfire would work on the NK. And he did allow Bran to use himself as bait. A Cersei assassination in comparison to that, particularly if Arya demonstrated her skills to Jon, seems to have better odds.

    From Dany’s quote in the show that you excerpted (S7e2?), it appears she didn’t buy into the homecoming hype like her “stupid” brother.
    (And so… Why then would she expect the people of KL to love her?)

    I don’t really know… maybe it was revisited to help fuel her anger (especially in the context of everything else) while demolishing the city after she made that decision upon the walls of King’s Landing. That the people didn’t rise up against Cersei as the slaves did in Essos against their masters.

  357. Ten Bears: Of course, as others have commented, from a storytelling perspective, after Arya had successfully terminated Walder Frey, his damn moron sons, the rest of the House Frey Red Wedding perpetrators, the King of the Zombies, and all of his WW lieutenants and 100,000 undead soldiers, it would be “overkill” if Arya also whacked the last Big Bad.

    Now, would I have enjoyed it? Absolutely. 🙂

    This is only a personal opinion but I think I would have preferred somebody else take out the Night King (maybe even Sam?) and leave Cersei for Arya. But I know that Arya killing Cersei would have been the more expected outcome and this is only a personal opinion. I also know there are those who liked Arya killing the Night King and seeing a sort of beauty in Cersei and Jaime dying together under a crumbling Red Keep.

  358. …I would have preferred somebody else take out the Night King (maybe even Sam?)…

    I had thought — and predicted — exactly that. Sam would remove the dragonglass from the Night’s King, un-making him back into a First Man, and the WW and wights would all de-animate. I was dead flat wrong. Arya is thematically a good choice — A Stark In Winterfell! — but I liked the idea of *Sam* being the Final Hero.

    …seeing a sort of beauty in Cersei and Jaime dying together under a crumbling Red Keep.

    Thus satisfying both foreshadowing statements Cersei spoke to soon-to-be-dead-Ned: “Jaime and I belong together,” and “When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die.”

    Yeah, the timelines are super fuzzy in the show :/ They seem to travel at the speed needed for the plot.

    Always have. Right from the start, In Winter Is Coming, we first meet the toxic twins in the Throne Room of King’s Landing. Half an episode later, they are riding into Winterfell. Robb Stark drags his armies hither and yon across Westeros, distances that would take months at the minimum per move, all in a half-dozen episodes. And, taking that thought in the other direction, it takes the Army of the Dead all of the first seven seasons (!) to reach Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, even though the Magnificent Seven (and specifically Gendry) cover similar distances in an episode or less. (All of that after we’ve been shown repeatedly that White Walkers were very near to The Wall — first, in the opening sequence to Winter Is Coming, then at Craster’s Keep.)

    Westeros is to GRRM and D&D what the galaxy was for Gene Roddenberry: really, really big enough for all of the stories he wanted, but still quite readily accessible for all of the stories he wanted. 😉

  359. Adrianacandle,

    • I too thought someone else should have taken out NK. From the showrunners’ explanation, they just “felt” it didn’t seem right that Jon should do it because that would be expected. I guess they wanted to go instead with someone who was unexpected??? Lots of folks have differing opinions, with many observing that NK was part of Jon’s story, not Arya’s. NK and Jon had a “history,” including glaring at each other in “Hardhome” and (I think also) “Beyond the Wall.”

    Others thought it would have been okay if Arya and Jon faced off against NK together even if Arya struck the fatal blow, instead of reducing Jon to yelling at undead Viserion and ducking behind a rock.

    • My grievance, if you can call it that, was the decision to have Arya materialize out of thin air, in mid-air. As I recall, the scene was originally scripted to follow Arya running or fighting her way into the godswood. I would have preferred that over a big out-of-the-blue surprise! moment, though lots of fans liked it.

    • However, the showrunners’ explanation that they decided on Arya as the unexpected choice and it “just didn’t feel right” to them for Jon to do it, coupled with their resort to the cliched “kill the leader, deactivate all his drones” device, indicates to me that GRRM has not even begun to formulate how humanity will repel the WWs.
    (I suspect Sam and Bran will play a significant role, and that GRRM intends to rely on his heroes using “brains over brawn” to figure out how to defend against the existential threat.)

    • That the showrunners were left to their own devices, and had to figure out on the fly how to come up with a way for the characters to deal with the AotD, suggests to me that the showrunners expected GRRM to supply an intricate and interesting reveal about the WWs and their vulnerability, but he did not come through.
    Therefore, Big G’s gotta shoulder much of the blame for any wonkiness of the NK/WW storyline and the way it wrapped up.

    • I agree with your opinion (“…I would have preferred somebody else take out the Night King (maybe even Sam?) and leave Cersei for Arya. But I know that Arya killing Cersei would have been the more expected outcome” insofar as somebody else should have taken out the NK.

    However, as I’ve previously stated, I was glad Sandor convinced Arya to abort her hit on Cersei because Cersei should not have been on Arya’s hit list. Killing Cersei out of a personal desire for revenge (as opposed to carrying out an assignment to achieve a military objective) wouldn’t have been an appropriate conclusion for Arya in my view.

    Incidentally, I’ve never been thrilled with the fan theories that speculate Arya would wear Jaime’s face to kill Cersei. Besides, Arya had already used the face-changing trick three times previously; going back to it a fourth time would have been hokey. (I’ll stop here before this Arya vs. Cersei subtopic drifts into redundant Valonqar theory discussions.)

    [ Oops. Can’t edit Screen’s sluggish. Sorry this was so long and meandering]

  360. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    I had thought — and predicted — exactly that. Sam would remove the dragonglass from the Night’s King, un-making him back into a First Man, and the WW and wights would all de-animate. I was dead flat wrong. Arya is thematically a good choice — A Stark In Winterfell! — but I liked the idea of *Sam* being the Final Hero.

    Yeah, I quite liked Sam as the one to give the killing blow to the NK! 🙂 He’s the first in the show/series to slay a White Walker, despite him being known as a coward and viewing himself as a coward, and I think it examines that whole notion of being more than you think you are and it being demonstrated in situations like this. Like of like Ned’s words, “A man can only be brave when he’s afraid.” Or maybe it’s too David and Goliath? I just really liked the concept of Sam being the one to take out the NK, this guy who so many believed was a coward and viewed him as such (with the exceptions being Gilly and Jon).

    Thus satisfying both foreshadowing statements Cersei spoke to soon-to-be-dead-Ned: “Jaime and I belong together,” and “When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die.”

    True, true — it does work in that way. I just wanted one last confrontation with Cersei and Arya (since Arya’s disappearance caused her some trouble and she had been looking for her for quite some time) or Cersei and Sansa. Or a one-on-one scene with Cersei and Dany.

    Basically, I wanted more Cersei (5% of me also kind of wanted Jon to have to marry Cersei for the sake of peace in a crack version of the story — just because I think it’d be hilarious and I’d love to see that for that reason alone. Not because it explores any theme, would have any significant messaging, or be this big story — but because I’m sick and terrible and I’d love watching those awkward family dinners. I had a whole scenario set up in my head and it makes me sometimes smile for no reason, which can be alarming if I’m on the train or something 🙂 )

    Always have. Right from the start, In Winter Is Coming, we first meet the toxic twins in the Throne Room of King’s Landing. Half an episode later, they are riding into Winterfell. Robb Stark drags his armies hither and yon across Westeros, distances that would take months at the minimum per move, all in a half-dozen episodes. And, taking that thought in the other direction, it takes the Army of the Dead all of the first seven seasons (!) to reach Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, even though the Magnificent Seven (and specifically Gendry) cover similar distances in an episode or less. (All of that after we’ve been shown repeatedly that White Walkers were very near to The Wall — first, in the opening sequence to Winter Is Coming, then at Craster’s Keep.)
    Westeros is to GRRM and D&D what the galaxy was for Gene Roddenberry: really, really big enough for all of the stories he wanted, but still quite readily accessible for all of the stories he wanted.

    That’s a good point. It’s also murky in the books too. I once found a timeline somewhere of when events happened, down to the specific day, and I have no idea how they figured that out but I was impressed. And I also realized how wrong my own sense of time with the stories had been.

    But I also think what distorted my sense of time was how fast people were getting places in the final seasons.

  361. Ten Bears,

    I too thought someone else should have taken out NK. From the showrunners’ explanation, they just “felt” it didn’t seem right that Jon should do it because that would be expected. I guess they wanted to go instead with someone who was unexpected??? Lots of folks have differing opinions, with many observing that NK was part of Jon’s story, not Arya’s. NK and Jon had a “history,” including glaring at each other in “Hardhome” and (I think also) “Beyond the Wall.”

    Yeah, I’m one of those who felt it was more part of Jon’s story than Arya’s (though I’ve seen the explanations that Arya’s story centers so much around death). I appreciate that this worked for people and that it played as such a moment of victory, and I can appreciate the reasoning some have come up with for Arya being the one to kill the NK. I like some of the ideas that have been brought up. However, myself, I (personally) have reservations.

    Others thought it would have been okay if Arya and Jon faced off against NK together even if Arya struck the fatal blow, instead of reducing Jon to yelling at undead Viserion and ducking behind a rock.

    I would have loved that!! I also like the idea of Sam killing the NK too but I also really like that 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • My grievance, if you can call it that, was the decision to have Arya materialize out of thin air, in mid-air. As I recall, the scene was originally scripted to follow Arya running or fighting her way into the godswood. I would have preferred that over a big out-of-the-blue surprise! moment, though lots of fans liked it.

    Yeah, I wasn’t the biggest fan of that part. It felt a bit too on the gimmicky side for me. I can appreciate Arya’s athleticism but where did she jump from? 🙂

    It does remind me how, in book 1, Tyrion did a few sets of acrobatics that were dropped for the remaining books XD

    • However, the showrunners’ explanation that they decided on Arya as the unexpected choice and it “just didn’t feel right” to them for Jon to do it, coupled with their resort to the cliched “kill the leader, deactivate all his drones” device, indicates to me that GRRM has not even begun to formulate how humanity will repel the WWs.

    I don’t think he has really either. I have my own theories, theories that I’ve discussed with Kevin on this board at length, but I think it’s going to involve a little more. I like the idea of negotiating with them after a long, weary battle, coming to some deal which may involve some unhappy terms but also give each side what they need.

    And yes, I agree D&D probably had to fill in a lot of the blanks themselves. D&D also had to come up with a way to resolve this and resolve it quickly within a limited amount of episodes so I don’t think it could have been as complex as what GRRM may be planning.

    With the WW vs. the living, it seems like a case of good vs. evil and I don’t know if that’ll entirely be the case in the books. But I don’t know.

    However, as I’ve previously stated, I was glad Sandor convinced Arya to abort her hit on Cersei because Cersei should not have been on Arya’s hit list. Killing Cersei out of a personal desire for revenge (as opposed to carrying out an assignment to achieve a military objective) wouldn’t have been an appropriate conclusion for Arya in my view.

    That’s true. And there’s also that Arya didn’t have to choose to take Sandor’s words to heart. She could have just continued on after Cersei, what she’s wanted for so long — but she didn’t. She chose to turn away from the path of revenge. And I think that’s really significant for her character. The easy thing to do would be to go after Cersei but the hard thing to do, which involved a sacrifice of sorts, was to turn away and I think that was the right thing for her.

  362. Ten Bears: Comment #400

    “From city to city, it’s 400 miles,”

    – Gerry Rafferry, “City to City”

    Congratulations, #400! (And lovely way to honour it!)

  363. Adrianacandle,

    “I don’t know if this is so much for the sake of a Targ restoration but to unseat the Lannisters and get their revenge.”

    They are related. They want their kin on the throne. You might argue that since the murder of Elia and the children no such relation exists, but Aerys’ bloodline is still the one Elia married into. Also, it is said that Targs have given princesses to Dorne and vice-versa, so Targs have dornish blood in them too. There’s also more marriages between Targs and houses of Dorne (e.g. the Daynes, who are blond). So there is a faction inside Dorne that wishes a Targ restoration.

  364. Efi: They are related. They want their kin on the throne. You might argue that since the murder of Elia and the children no such relation exists, but Aerys’ bloodline is still the one Elia married into. Also, it is said that Targs have given princesses to Dorne and vice-versa, so Targs have dornish blood in them too. There’s also more marriages between Targs and houses of Dorne (e.g. the Daynes, who are blond). So there is a faction inside Dorne that wishes a Targ restoration.

    Thanks 🙂 I know of three Targaryen-Dornish marriages: Elia and Rhaegar, Daeron II Targaryen and and Myriah Martell, and Dyanna Dayne and Maekar I Targaryen (who I think are ancestors to Aerys’s line). Can you recall any others?

    House Dayne itself involves a lot of mystery.

  365. Ten Bears,

    I don’t know if there was a message intended by Dany’s fall.

    Mainly “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions”, “Pride comes before a fall”, and “Satan has never thought of himself as a supervillain”.

  366. Re: Targaryen and Dornish marriages:-

    I seem to remember book Doran saying something about the reason the water gardens were open to the small folk of Sunspear was because a Princess Daenerys who was married into the Dornish at some time had felt sad that they were excluded.

  367. Dame of Mercia: Re: Targaryen and Dornish marriages:-

    I seem to remember book Doran saying something about the reason the water gardens were open to the small folk of Sunspear was because a Princess Daenerys who was married into the Dornish at some time had felt sad that they were excluded.

    Oh, you’re right! There was a Princess Daenerys (sister of King Daeron the Good) and she was married to a Maron Martell 🙂

    Is this the water gardens passage you’re remembering?

    “Beautiful and peaceful,” the prince said. “Cool breezes, sparkling water, and the laughter of children. The Water Gardens are my favorite place in this world, ser. One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of Sunspear. Daenerys was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms. The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron’s bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him. It was Daenerys who filled the gardens with laughing children. Her own children at the start, but later the sons and daughters of lords and landed knights were brought in to be companions to the boys and girls of princely blood. And one summer’s day when it was scorching hot, she took pity on the children of her grooms and cooks and serving men and invited them to use the pools and fountains too, a tradition that has endured till this day.”

  368. Adrianacandle,

    I believe that is it, Adriana. I haven’t re-read the books multiple times as some folk have but I remember that for some reason.

  369. Ten Bears,

    I suppose that in the show they needed to make some things explicit for the audience, and admittedly the book version is a very complicated story.
    There is no specific plan in Westeros about how to create a better world. From my reading, what I sense is that so far it is narrowed down to “enlightened absolutism”, that idea which aims at having good rulers but in reality never questions the system itself. The only one who -apparently- had a plan was Rhaegar, but he died early, and I suppose that if Martin intends to come back to this idea there will be more information about it later on. He wanted changes, and in particular he wanted a great council. Great councils had been summoned in Westeros in the past to decide who will rule next, but perhaps Rhaegar intended to agree on a reformation of a kind, which is not revealed in the book.
    The rest in spoilers because there’s too much from the books and it concerns Tyrion’s de-characterization in the show.

    Daenerys in the books is very clever. The show downplayed her role in the events and her shrewdness for giving more to the other actors around E.C. (but I put it very mildly). The idea that she will be welcomed with open arms in Westeros does not belong to her but to her followers, who hope for a regime change but not a change of the system. As far as I can tell, she is hesitant to accept this, not that she has refuted it on the basis of her followers’ wishful thinking, but it might come to that eventually. The book story is not a preparation for Daenerys’ happy arrival in Westeros; on the contrary, everything is set up to oppose her but for the North. She will have FAegon on the throne with Dorne, Stannis in the North, and the Iron Islands will be divided, probably in three parts (Asha-Theon North, Euron with FAegon -perhaps- and Victarion with Daenerys). That is a very complicated scenario and shrewd book Daenerys won’t consider this a welcoming.
    I don’t think this plot just “happened”. I think that Martin intended to put this to her, for facing the consequences of her choices. She was advised to leave for Westeros as soon as she got the Unsullied, and not to get involved in essossi politics. Had she left earlier and not wasted time in Meereen, she’d have arrived soon after Tywin’s murder. Instead, she chose to learn how to rule in Meereen.
    This is from her last chapter in ASOS:

    –That morning she summoned her captains and commanders to the garden, rather than descending to the audience chamber. “Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice. But all I have brought to Slaver’s Bay is death and ruin. I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on”.
    “There is nothing to stay for”, said Brown Ben Plumm.
    “Your grace, the slavers brought their doom on themselves”, said Daario Naharis.
    “You have brought freedom as well”, Missandei pointed out.
    “Freedom to starve?” asked Dany sharply. “Freedom to die? Am I a dragon, or a harpy?” Am I mad? Do I have the taint?
    “A dragon”, Ser Barristan said with certainty. “Meereen is not Westeros, your grace”.
    “But how can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city”? He had no answer to that. Dany turned away from them, to gaze out over the city again. “My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I’ve freed all over again”. She turned back to look at their faces. “I will not march”.
    “What will you do then, Khaleesi?” asked Rakharo.
    “Stay”, she said. “Rule. And be queen”. —

    So, there it is. Daenerys’ reasons for staying behind were 1/ saving the people she had freed, 2/ allowing for her dragons to grow, 3/ learn how to rule. Meereen was her experiment; like she brought chaos in Astapor and set the entire Slaver’s Bay on fire with her actions, she brought chaos in Meereen. I don’t think she will have many options when she returns with the Dothraki. But when she’ll finally arrive at Westeros, she’ll be an accomplished dragon and imo she will have no illusions as to whether she’ll be loved or not. She won’t be loved and she knows that already.
    [note from the above extract that Barristan is contempuous of Meereen and the entire Essossi culture].

    You might wonder where did all that about “the love of the people” came from in the show. Well, in my opinion the show in part expanded the idea that the slaves loved Daenerys because she freed them (the mhysa idea), and simply continued with this thread from her PoV. The problem with that was, as you noted, that there are no slaves in Westeros. And Daenerys, while she feels for the slaves and frees them, pays no consideration to the vast stratum that composes city population, namely merchants, artisans etc. By freeing the slaves in reality Daenerys overturned the foundations of an entire economic system and she had no alternative to replace it. My point is here, only the slaves loved her; the commercial stratum and others around it would hardly have any love for her, and neither would the upper social strata. No matter how they see it, with Daenerys they are losing money at best; at worst they have been reduced themselves to smallfolk, to almost “slaves” in her regime. Martin explores the upper social strata in Essos but does not bother, almost not at all, with the rest.

    But in part the show also merged her view with Tyrion’s view. Tyrion is hateful of the smallfolk of Kings Landing. This is an aspect of him that I haven’t seen discussed anywhere in the fandom. He actually hates them. He hates them because they jape for his dwarfism; because in his opinion he has been a good administrator for them but they do not see it; because he was forced to put a tax on whores’ intercourses with their clients to pay for Joffrey’s wedding with the Tyrell girl and it was mockingly called “the dwarf’s penny” (vilely connected with f*cking); because they foolishly believed that Renly’s ghost came back to save them from the enemy (Stannis), while this was Loras’ brother who wore Renly’s armor for confusing Stannis’ soldiers; because in preparation for Stannis’ siege he burned the shops and houses below the walls of the city (this is a better representation of the smallfolk/artisans than we see in Meereen).

    So Tyrion actually hates the smallfolk because in his perception he saved them but they do not recognize it. Tyrion actually wants to be loved, he wants to have the love of the masses, his father and family, his women, etc, because he believes he is worthy of it and that in reality he is gifted, charismatic, smart and so on, but they do not let him unfold all these gifts because he is a dwarf. This need is much more pronounced in Tyrion’s chapters than it ever is in Daenerys’, because already Daenerys enjoys the love of a part of the people and the men around her adore her, so she doesn’t have this type of emotional hung-ups. Tyrion does not seem to have any empathy for smallfolk, unlike Daenerys.
    (I don’t remember an instance where he shows this virtue, but if someone does, feel free to point it out to me; in reality the first time Tyrion comes close to smallfolk is when she meets Penny –compare with the show and the beetle scene with Jamie).

    So when these two meet, I suppose they’ll complement each other and I tend to believe that it will be Tyrion who will want to burn KL. I think that with Daenerys it will be different (I am not quite sure how, but I have already pointed out that she will need to have an adversary).

    Also, the line “I am not here to be queen of the ashes” is show invention, because Daenerys simply does not think of burning cities to the ground (so far; Tyrion plays with the idea, he liked the effect of wildfire and Tywin disturbingly compares him to Aerys).
    However, this line comes from the “let him be king of the ashes” from the book. In the books is was sth Aerys said to one of his hands (? I think). As I see it, the idea is that whoever becomes king after the catastrophe shall be ruling over ashes, which is the effect that Aerys intended to create. In short, the line refers to the aftermath and can be seen as foreshadow for whoever it is that comes to the throne after the event; it does not refer to the attacker.
    [as we know Tywin sacked KL and perhaps there was fire, but I doubt that the effect was the same, and Jamie acted to prevent this from happening].

    So, everything clicks and what we saw on screen was a merge of Tyrion-Daenerys’ traits with the same effect. Of course it will be much clearer and a lot more nouanced in the books, and someone (imo Tyrion) will look to the “people’s love” again and Daenerys will burn the city because she will be urged to do so.
    In the show Daenerys pointed out that the people turned against their masters, but in the books this happens with Unsullied backup, so it’s not that simple (they had armed forces to defend them, who were fighting against the masters too). Not that Daenerys will not grow such a need for the people’s love, after all there’s still two books to go so there’s room for that too, but I don’t think that it will be as important as it is for Tyrion.

  370. Efi,

    I was also wondering if you had remembered if any character had specific plans on how to better it. I’ll keep looking for one but I can’t remember anything either.

    Tyrion takes quite a dark turn in ADWD and I think what really prompted his ‘Then Let Me Be Evil’ turn is learning about Tysha. For anybody unfamiliar with Tysha, she was Tyrion’s first wife who Tyrion loved. But when Tywin found out about Tyrion’s marriage to Tysha, he forced Jaime to lie to Tyrion that Tysha was only a prostitute who was hired to be with him. Tywin told Jaime that Tysha was only with Tyrion for gold and that Tyrion needed to learn his lesson.

    Then Tywin forced Tyrion to watch as he had Tysha gang-raped and also forced Tyrion to rape her as well (however, Jaime did not know about this). Tyrion is haunted by Tysha, reflecting his time with her was the only time he was ever truly happy but believes she didn’t really love him when, if I’m recalling correctly, she did.

    When Jaime comes clean with Tyrion, afraid this will be his last chance to tell Tyrion the truth and he needs to confess, Tyrion learns that Jaime lied to him: Tysha wasn’t a whore hired to be with him, she chose to be with him.

    And it’s this what seems to destroy the only lifelong loving relationship Tyrion has ever experienced — with Jaime — and turns him for the worse.

    (Asha-Theon North, Euron with FAegon -perhaps- and Victarion with Daenerys).

    I’m not so sure Daenerys will be allied with Euron — Euron is probably the worst person to ever grace the ASOIAF universe: worse than Ramsay, worse than Joffrey, worse than Aerys — and for however dark Daenerys will get, I don’t think GRRM is planning to put her nearly on Euron’s level or turn her into a straight-up monster. Especially with GRRM’s POV characters, his main characters, that doesn’t seem to be his style (but I would argue Euron and Ramsay aren’t grey at all — though they’re not POV characters). And if Euron does steal (or kill) one of her dragons… I think that’s going to be a problem for her 🙂

    There’s this passage:

    Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes atangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone. She wanted to shake him, wake him, make him hold her, fuck her, help her forget, but she knew that if she did, he would only smile and yawn and say, “It was just a dream, my queen. Go back to sleep.”

    This seems to be talking about Euron (I think) and not in a pleasant manner. She seems really upset by this dream. There are theories that Euron was entering her mind at the time but yeah, I don’t know. It does seem to be super unsettling though.

    So when these two meet, I suppose they’ll complement each other and I tend to believe that it will be Tyrion who will want to burn KL. I think that with Daenerys it will be different

    I’ve seen speculation that it’s Tyrion who will fan the flames between YG and Dany — that Tyrion sort of wants to weaponize the best contender, whoever comes out on top in this conflict, to take out his family (who he does have some legit hate for — he even harbours deep deep anger at Jaime because of Tysha, certainly hates Cersei more than probably anybody else on the planet, and seems to lack the soft spot for his niece and nephew that he had in the show).

    Reading your post, I’m reminded of a comment you made wondering if Cersei said anything about burning cities. She has these passages:

    Jaime ignored that. “If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.”

    “Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

    The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their substance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts.

    It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse.

    “No need.” Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”

  371. Dame of Mercia: I believe that is it, Adriana. I haven’t re-read the books multiple times as some folk have but I remember that for some reason.

    I didn’t really remember either until you mentioned it and a vague, vague memory came up. However, I had to do a keyword search for the passage in my eBooks. I’m not nearly so familiar with the Dorne passages, I should refresh on those :/

  372. Adrianacandle,

    The Dornish conquest by the Targaryens effectively failed because the Dornish were too insubordinate. Hence, the Targaryens came to terms with the Dornish and gave them the first Daenerys. This is intentional on Martin’s part.
    There seems to be a mirror and a foil with the North. The North bent the knee, the South/Dorne did not. The Dornish compromised with the first Daenerys, will the Northern ever do the same?

  373. Efi: The Dornish conquest by the Targaryens effectively failed because the Dornish were too insubordinate. Hence, the Targaryens came to terms with the Dornish and gave them the first Daenerys. This is intentional on Martin’s part.
    There seems to be a mirror and a foil with the North. The North bent the knee, the South/Dorne did not. The Dornish compromised with the first Daenerys, will the Northern ever do the same?

    I don’t know if there’s a mirror or foil with the North specifically because most of the kingdoms bent the knee to Aegon, not only the North. Plus, Dorne has always been kind of the odd duck in Westeros with some of its views and customs being pretty different from the rest of Westeros, including the North.

    I know I’ve told you about my reservations with Northern independence in the books already — I think there are quite a few problems that would be posed by separatism, problems I don’t think the North can quite deal with in its current state — stuff the show didn’t really focus on (food/resources) but stuff the books devote a fair bit of time to. As a result, I’m not sure if the North will be independent when Daenerys arrives or if the Northern independence storyline will play out nearly the same way it did in the show.

    Perhaps parts but I suspect the Jon and Sansa season 6 storyline was an adaptation of what might happen with Stannis in TWOW as Stannis is the character waging war for Winterfell and working on ousting the Boltons while Davos has been sent to rescue Rickon so as to acquire more support for Stannis (plus Jon is currently dead, the Wall has descended into chaos, and Sansa’s in the Vale with her attention pretty focused on quite a few activities going on there).

  374. Adrianacandle,

    Yes, Cersei also loves the flames. She burns the tower of the hand (there’s a symbolism in there, related to the Starks who have inhabited the tower, but I need to think this through), but in the end she does not mention anything about the city in general -although she is contemptuous of smallfolk too- and I think that she will blow up the Sept as in the show. She needs to murder some Tyrells so that the Reach defects to FAegon’s side, lol.

    I don’t think that Daenerys will ally with Euron either, and the reason will be Victarion, who is a PoV and is set out to undermine Euron. I think it is unlikely that the visions Aeron has shall be fulfilled with Daenerys on the throne. This leaves Euron in the waters around Westeros by the beginning of WoW and Victarion in the bay of Meereen ready to blow the horn.

    The events with Tysha makes up a deeply disturbing narrative and is a huge trap that Martin set up for his readers with regard to Tyrion. In what follows, I have to say in advance that I did like Feldman’s analysis of ADWD. If it has one -major- flaw, it is that it doesn’t take into consideration the previous books, which pose a lot of issues (for all the protagonists that Feldman analyses), therefore he concludes that Tyrion’s fate is still to be determined.

    I don’t think this is the case. Tyrion’s fate in my opinion was sealed the moment he murdered his father and Tysha’s fate had a role in the murder -it was what triggered him, but not the ultimate cause for the kill.
    But what strikes me in the narrative is the complete lack of remorse and the complete absense of self-critique when it comes to Tysha.
    Someone he trusted (granted) presented Tyrion with a story which he believed through and through, without questionning , discussing, talking it over with Tysha and Jamie to find out the truth of the matter. Tywin had ordered that Tysha be given to the guard for their pleasure. Tyrion did not prevent this from happening, he allowed for this to happen not just to his wife, who could have been just anybody (including a high-born lady) but to another human being.
    I repeat this for clarity’s shake.

    Tyrion allowed for a girl to be gang-raped.

    This is a horrible crime in itself. He completed the act by raping her himself in front of others. (I imagine others cheering how the dwarf bangs the whore)
    There is nothing to exonerate him for his vile crime. He is a lord, a lord’s son, rich, powerful.
    She was only a girl, a cobbler’s daughter.
    Even if she had been a whore, as his father claimed, the punishment of gang rape is singularly cruel.
    He could have stopped everything with a word; after all Tywin wasn’t present in the act, it was beneath him to deal with “whores”. He’d be at odds with his father, but he could take it. He could have sent her away. He could even have her paraded nacked through the streets of Lannisport like Tywin did to his father’s mistress. But no; it had to be gang rape.

    I searched and searched, and I don’t think I can find a single word in Tyrion’s chapters indicating that he reflected on his own part in the crime. He regretted that it happened, yes. But in his mind, he wasn’t responsible for this, it was his father (and Jamie for conveying the lie).
    His line “where do whores go?” does not only encapsulate his trauma. Martin intends for it to hint at Tyrion’s part in the crime, his guilt. Indeed, where does one go when one has suffered such an injustice? Even if he did find Tysha, he’d have nothing to say to her, because he was responsible for it, but considering that there’s no hint of self-critique one thinks that he still loves Tysha, that he wants her back and that he intends to do right by her. But I think that there is a passage where he thinks that he’d have nothing to say to her even if he found her.

    I think, that what Jai (?) said above about confronting oneself with one’s true inner self happened with Tyrion when he learned the truth from Jamie. This was his breaking point, that he became like his father, and this is what he could not stand, which is why he killed Tywin. One part of Tyrion’s darkness in ADWD is due to the realization of who he was: a very, very cruel person, self-righteous, arrogant, a monster, and if I am not mistaken he calls himself that.

    So, is a human being for Tyrion worthy of respect and perhaps love when they (: he/she lololololol TB) love him back? This is a question that runs deep in Tyrion’s PoV.
    It’s not only with Tysha; it’s with the people of KL; his father; Sansa; even Shae. It’s about what he wants and how to get it, namely, their love. Tyrion begrudges Sansa for not loving him; he thinks that if he were handsome she might come to like him; he is aware that his family killed her entire family (so far as they know), and that does not speak in his favor with her, but still, he wants her for himself.
    Feldman touches upon his relation with his father, Jamie/Cersei and even Sansa a bit but he fails to notice that Penny in ADWD intrudes in Tyrion’s PoV as Sansa’s stand-in and foil, and that Martin intends to do sth with that. Tyrion’s women play with the theme of love for the villain/love of the villain and with the concept of the madonna-whore contrast.
    All in all in my opinion Tyrion’s chapters are generally masterful literature, but much of it is subtle and very complicated and we tend to stay on the surface because we see witty Tyrion, we see how clever he is and we tend to overlook all else. I’m really curious to see what happens next with him, but as I said above, if he is saved in the end I will be very surprised.

  375. Ten Bears: Missandei: “All men must die.”
    Dany: “But we are not men.”

    Was this a throwaway line? Am I making something out of nothing? Could be.

    Perhaps. Historically, most languages have used the word “men” and “people” interchangeably in some situations. It’s only been in the last 50+ years that feminism have made people realize that this is a really bad thing to do on a number of counts!

    And, let’s face it: although GRRM has called SoI&F a “rebuttal” to Lord of the Rings, he still professes himself a fan of it. Tolkien used this to set up Merry & Eowyn killing the Witch King: the WK would not fall at the hands of any man. This was interpreted to mean “mortal men (doomed to die)” and, oh, yeah, “men” in that context meant “people who were not Elves or Dwarfs”. (Hobbits were a “race” of men in Tolkien’s mind.)

    That said, I doubt that this is any indication of immortality for either character. GRRM has given general hints about what would be different: but he has not hinted that this might be one of them.

  376. Efi: There seems to be a mirror and a foil with the North. The North bent the knee, the South/Dorne did not. The Dornish compromised with the first Daenerys, will the Northern ever do the same?

    That is not the level at which this story works. It’s not about what groups do, but what individuals do: and, in particular, what Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Bran and Arya do. They are, after all, the 5 primary protagonists: and more than everyone, their personal dilemmas (which always parallel each others) drive the story. Show!Sansa was a 6th primary protagonist, and it’s possible that Book!Sansa might do that if GRRM begins the sort of dynamic character development for her that the show started about midway through.

    The mirrors for which to look (and that we basically got on the show) are: to what extent will Daenerys’ choices mirror those of Rhaegar? To what extent will Jon’s mirror those of Ned? We saw that in a big way on the show, particularly for Jon: his inability to recognize what Sansa had become and the fallout from his telling her about his true parentage mirrored Ned’s inability to see what Cersei was and Ned’s telling Cersei that he knew about Joffery’s true parentage. The exact details were different – Ned’s choice destroyed himself, whereas Jon’s choice destroyed Daenerys – but both “choose one value over another value” undermined not just their tactics, but their strategies. I expect that GRRM intends to have this and other comparable character mirrors in the final two book. (Again, not that I expect to ever read the final or even penultimate book!)

  377. Efi,

    Yes, Cersei also loves the flames. She burns the tower of the hand (there’s a symbolism in there, related to the Starks who have inhabited the tower, but I need to think this through), but in the end she does not mention anything about the city in general -although she is contemptuous of smallfolk too- and I think that she will blow up the Sept as in the show. She needs to murder some Tyrells so that the Reach defects to FAegon’s side, lol.

    Oh, I didn’t mean about the city but about how Cersei feels about fire 🙂 And she has that part in one passage where if the fire spreads, let the city see because it’ll send a message.

    I think symbolism is tricky. I think that we’ve gotten to the point where a lot of overthinking has occurred — and I suspect much of that is due to having 9 years — in which nearly the entirety of the show has started and ended — to think about this stuff. Consequently, we have every interpretation and theory that could possibly be thought out there.

    In this way, I think some are going to be disappointed. Some theory crafters have developed these really intricate, convoluted theories — when really, what might end up happening might be what a lot of fans who have engaged so deeply with theories would think too obvious (ie. Jaime as valonqar), as Wimsey talked about.

    And the thing is, this probably wouldn’t be obvious if the books were released on a few years apart and we didn’t had so much time to analyse and think and overthink.

    The events with Tysha makes up a deeply disturbing narrative and is a huge trap that Martin set up for his readers with regard to Tyrion. In what follows, I have to say in advance that I did like Feldman’s analysis of ADWD. If it has one -major- flaw, it is that it doesn’t take into consideration the previous books, which pose a lot of issues (for all the protagonists that Feldman analyses), therefore he concludes that Tyrion’s fate is still to be determined.

    I think Feldman did consider the previous books because he references Tyrion’s history when trying to analyse his ADWD story — particularly his pretty resentful feelings for his family and how he’s gotten to this really dark place now. But I also think it’s not a done deal that Tyrion will keep on this path of darkness forever. Tyrion’s story is also far from over too and I don’t think his character is quite set yet with at least two more books to go.

    I don’t think this is the case. Tyrion’s fate in my opinion was sealed the moment he murdered his father and Tysha’s fate had a role in the murder -it was what triggered him, but not the ultimate cause for the kill.

    With two books to go still, I don’t think Tyrion’s character is done developing yet or has reached his final form. Tyrion still has a lot to resolve with himself.

    Tyrion did not prevent this from happening, he allowed for this to happen not just to his wife, who could have been just anybody (including a high-born lady) but to another human being.
    I repeat this for clarity’s shake.
    Tyrion allowed for a girl to be gang-raped.

    There is nothing to exonerate him for his vile crime. He is a lord, a lord’s son, rich, powerful.

    I’d dispute this. Tyrion didn’t allow this to happen — he couldn’t have stopped this from happening. Tywin was doing this to Tyrion as a punishment, he was 13 years old and completely at the mercy of his father, who was a powerful man and lord while Tyrion was his despised dwarf son at a distinct disadvantage. The only power Tyrion had was what Tywin gave him.

    Here’s a thread discussing what you’re talking about but no, I don’t think Tyrion is to blame for this. I think this as example of Tywin abusing Tyrion.

    He could have stopped everything with a word; after all Tywin wasn’t present in the act, it was beneath him to deal with “whores”. He’d be at odds with his father, but he could take it.He could have sent her away. He could even have her paraded nacked through the streets of Lannisport like Tywin did to his father’s mistress. But no; it had to be gang rape.
    I searched and searched, and I don’t think I can find a single word in Tyrion’s chapters indicating that he reflected on his own part in the crime.

    Tywin was present:

    “After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she …” The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. “Lord Tywin had me go last,” he said in a quiet voice. “And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more.”

    “After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. “Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”

    Like Bronn said, this was done to Tyrion as well. Most adults refuse to stand up to Tywin Lannister — Tyrion has no money, no power of his own, much less so at 13 and a dwarf.

    His line “where do whores go?” does not only encapsulate his trauma. Martin intends for it to hint at Tyrion’s part in the crime, his guilt. Indeed, where does one go when one has suffered such an injustice? Even if he did find Tysha, he’d have nothing to say to her, because he was responsible for it,

    I don’t agree. I’m sorry :/ He’s responsible for marrying Tysha, he’s not responsible for how Tywin chooses to punish him for it. In my mind, Tyrion had no more agency in this situation than any other 13-year old at the mercy of their abusive parent.

    I think, that what Jai (?) said above about confronting oneself with one’s true inner self happened with Tyrion when he learned the truth from Jamie. This was his breaking point, that he became like his father, and this is what he could not stand, which is why he killed Tywin. One part of Tyrion’s darkness in ADWD is due to the realization of who he was: a very, very cruel person, self-righteous, arrogant, a monster, and if I am not mistaken he calls himself that.

    Tywin spent years mistreating Tyrion. With the exception of Jaime, Tyrion was despised and unloved. And he spent a large portion of his life believing the only girl he loved, his first wife, was paid to be with him as a prostitute, that she was lying to him. And then to learn that this girl had chosen to be with him, that it was Jaime who had lied — I think that’s that’s pretty significant. He trusted Jaime, Jaime was his only family member who loved him to learn Jaime had lied to him about this (Jaime, too, was forced to lie by Tywin and could he have refused his father?).

    Plus, even if Tyrion believes he’s a monster — that doesn’t mean he has to be one for the remainder of the series. I don’t think his development is done part way through the story.

    So, is a human being for Tyrion worthy of respect and perhaps love when they (: he/she lololololol TB) love him back? This is a question that runs deep in Tyrion’s PoV.

    I’m not sure what you mean here, can you explain?

    Tyrion begrudges Sansa for not loving him; he thinks that if he were handsome she might come to like him; he is aware that his family killed her entire family (so far as they know), and that does not speak in his favor with her, but still, he wants her for himself.

    Per our previous discussions on this, Tyrion was likewise forced to marry Sansa too. He feels lust for her but this was ordered of him as well.

    Feldman touches upon his relation with his father, Jamie/Cersei and even Sansa a bit but he fails to notice that Penny in ADWD intrudes in Tyrion’s PoV as Sansa’s stand-in and foil, and that Martin intends to do sth with that. Tyrion’s women play with the theme of love for the villain/love of the villain and with the concept of the madonna-whore contrast.

    Well, I don’t think Sansa is a foil or stand-in for Penny. I don’t think Sansa much figures into his situation with Penny. I don’t find much connecting Penny and Sansa. I think Penny is about finding the humanity in Tyrion again while Tyrion is in a very dark place because I don’t think Tyrion’s development is over.

    All in all in my opinion Tyrion’s chapters are generally masterful literature, but much of it is subtle and very complicated and we tend to stay on the surface because we see witty Tyrion, we see how clever he is and we tend to overlook all else. I’m really curious to see what happens next with him, but as I said above, if he is saved in the end I will be very surprised.

    I don’t think readers are overlooking these aspects — he is witty and clever but the other parts of him are pretty prevalent too. His resentment, bitterness, and efforts for approval are fairly overt, I’d say. There are quite a few passages reflecting Tyrion’s feelings about how he is treated, viewed, despised as a dwarf. His advice to Jon to wear his bastardy like armour comes from this — the stigmatization and disdain he feels from society is how he connects with Jon and why he had a soft spot for “cripples, bastards, and broken things.”

  378. Wimsey,

    That is not the level at which this story works. It’s not about what groups do, but what individuals do…

    But in a feudal system, the head of a Great House speaks for that House, and if that House rules a Kingdom, then that person controls, to a great extent, what that group (kingdom) will do. Having the fate of kingdoms bound up with the fates of families or individuals is one of the (very) many things bad about feudalism as a form of government, and it is also why a feudal setting is a wonderland for interpersonal drama and conflict on a great scale. Hence we find feudal settings in places as diverse as actual England, fictional Arrakis, and Westeros.

    We saw that in a big way on the show, particularly for Jon: his inability to recognize what Sansa had become and the fallout from his telling her about his true parentage mirrored Ned’s inability to see what Cersei was and Ned’s telling Cersei that he knew about Joffery’s true parentage.

    More immediately, we saw in Jon’s telling his family a reverse image of Ned’s not ever telling that same family (or anyone) about Jon’s true parentage. Jon’s reveal has sudden, irreversible, unintended, and malign consequences, which is why Ned had kept his own trap shut for all of Jon’s life.

    And, back to your mirror, Ned’s telling of Joffrey’s true parentage leads directly to the War of the Five Kings, while Jon’s telling of his own true parentage leads to the destruction of King’s Landing. In a feudal system, the personal gets political very fast, and in a big way.

  379. Ten Bears,

    I’d bet the farm Dany nuking KL is what’s in store for her. What’s more, I think the way it happens is going to be very similar in the books: bells ringing for surrender and all. There’s something very deliberate about the way it’s done in the show, almost like time slowed down for a while, like a boat stalling at the edge of a waterfall.

    A lot of attention has been drawn to the bells over the years, both in the books and in the show (in episodes GRRM wrote himself, namely Blackwater) and what they signify – horror, death, surrender (not surrender?). Before it’s all over in the books, they’re going to have a big spotlight on them, like everything is going to hinge on them somehow.

    It’s one of the biggest, most fundamental, and most important beats in the entire story, and it’s THE centerpiece of the story post-Walkers. D&D have openly admitted they’ve changed some things, especially in regards to some secondary characters and subplots. But the bells moment? No, I don’t see that being changed. That’s gonna be straight from the books, mark my words.

  380. Efi,

    ” Yes, Cersei also loves the flames. She burns the tower of the hand (there’s a symbolism in there, related to the Starks who have inhabited the tower, but I need to think this through), but in the end she does not mention anything about the city in general -although she is contemptuous of smallfolk too- and I think that she will blow up the Sept as in the show.”

    So, you think she may wind up somehow… burning down the house?

    🔥“Burning Down the House” (live 1983)
    – David Byrne & Talking Heads

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBUe_v6Mi70

    ———
    🔥“Burning Down the House”
    (live Sept. 2012) David Byrne w/ Annie Clarke

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IupfobUV118

    ——

  381. Oooookay, about that update in the OP, did anybody read the smallprint that followed after?:

    “And before anyone starts to panic, “oh my god he is making videos in place of writing,” OF COURSE I am still working on WINDS OF WINTER as well. That really should go without saying, yet somehow I need to say it, or someone might make stupid assumptions. I am also doing some editorial work on three new Wild Cards books, reading scripts and making notes on a couple of exciting Hollywood projects, texting with agents, editors, and friends about this and that, eating several meals a day, watching television, reading books, and from time to time using the toilet. Just because I do not mention it in every Not A Blog does not mean it is not happening”

    https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/06/30/rocket-time/

    Say Hello! to Wild Cards, suckers!!

  382. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ”…More immediately, we saw in Jon’s telling his family a reverse image of Ned’s not ever telling that same family (or anyone) about Jon’s true parentage. Jon’s reveal has sudden, irreversible, unintended, and malign consequences, which is why Ned had kept his own trap shut for all of Jon’s life.

    And, back to your mirror, Ned’s telling of Joffrey’s true parentage leads directly to the War of the Five Kings, while Jon’s telling of his own true parentage leads to the destruction of King’s Landing. In a feudal system, the personal gets political very fast, and in a big way.”

    Good observations and comparisons, Tensor! (E.g., about the wisdom of discretion vs. (unintended) consequences of disclosure.)

    If there’s an underlying message, maybe it would be: “Shut the f*ck up!”

    In all seriousness, in real life some people feel an overwhelming – and selfish – urge to purge themselves of their own guilt by confessing a transgression, when disclosure will cause disproportionate pain to the person they’ve betrayed. (Perhaps bearing the guilt instead of trying to assuage it, and trying to atone for the transgression another way, is the better course of action?)

    Similarly, all too often people are entrusted with a “juicy” secret or other confidence, and just can’t resist the urge to gossip about it.

    Ned had it right: (1) A secret shared is no longer a secret; and (2) Some secrets are too dangerous to share with anyone.
    “Coming clean” isn’t necessarily the best solution, even if silence amounts to deception. (See, e.g., Catelyn and Jon himself.)

    And you’re right: On the show, revealing family secrets (about parentage) invariably led to “irreversible, unintended, and malign consequences,” demonstrating that Ned was right when he “had kept his own trap shut for all of Jon’s life.”* Contrast that with Ned’s boneheaded decision to blab to Cersei that he’d discovered the secret of her children’s parentage, and Jon (ignoring Dany) yakking about the secret of his parentage.

    * Ned kept his trap shut for years and years. Jon blabbed about it within a few days. Sansa lasted 15 minutes.

  383. Hate to say it but at this pace he will never finish these books. I’m in my 40s and at this pace he won’t finish them in my lifetime so this isn’t ageism. I hope he makes plans to leave the story to someone else other than D&D. We know how bad that ending will be.

  384. Adrianacandle,

    That’s unsettling.
    Tywin didn’t DO anything to Tyrion.
    He DID IT to Tysha.
    Tysha was the innocent here. Not Tyrion. Tyrion allowed for this to happen and it haunts him.
    Note Bronn’s line:

    “Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”

    TO ME?????
    TO ME?????
    ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!

    Tyrion suffered a blow to his EGO, nothing more, nothing less.
    It’s similar to Cersei’s walk of shame, but in that case it was even worse, because it wasn’t just her ego that was hurt, it was her entire existence as a woman. Cersei escaped rape because she’s a queen

    That is far less than what Tysha suffered because LORD TYRION decided to marry beneath him, going against his father’s wishes and the society’s expectations. Tysha wasn’t as lucky as Cersei, or that important. She was tortured because she was a woman and one who dared to love a Lannister.

    Tyrion could have stopped this. He could have snatched Tysha away from the guards. What would his father do? What would the guards do? Kill a Lannister lord? That’s ridiculous.
    The worst that could happen to him would be that he’d be chained and made to watch, and that would have alleviated the burden of guilt completely. If Martin meant to exonerate Tyrion, he’d have made up something similar, for conveying just Tywin’s cruelty and Tyrion’s helplessness. But no, the author didn’t do that. Why?

    The way I see it, Tyrion received an order from his father to torture Tysha and he executed it.
    Later, he received an order to marry Sansa. He executed that too.
    He could have refused, and Sansa would be married to Lancel, a much kinder fate than being married to Tyrion.
    That order went with the sub-order “bed her once and then when she comes of age”. Considering that Tyrion has done all his father wanted, and that he basically has no objections to his orders, that’s disturbing, and even more so because the ultimate goal was to bed Sansa, and Lancel wouldn’t be capable of that.
    [he even wanted to be informed about the plot of the red wedding! he did have moral issues, like he did with his marriage to Sansa, but what bothers him the most is that his father didn’t trust him enough to let him in on the secret!]

    The book is much about agency and class distinctions that are interdependent.
    Tyrion may have been 13, but in-universe he was old enough to marry and old enough to go to the army as full-time soldier. He was also a Lannister lord. So he did have the agency to stop it.
    He just didn’t want to, because he bought the lie and he took it as a blow to his EGO. ME again.

    Everything that happens to Tyrion is about his EGO. When people treat him well, he is happy and satisfied. When they’re not, it’s the opposite.

    A case in point is the murder of the Yunkai’i master. The master was dying of the bloody flux. Why poison him then? The answer is, revenge. Tyrion wanted the master to understand that he was the one poisoning him, not the flux. Tyrion is that person at the end of ADWD. A vindictive monster. You may argue that there’s still two books to go, but it’s already four books behind.

    Sansa and Penny: Tyrion’s family has murdered their brother. They end up being at Tyrion’s mercy. Tyrion is in love with Sansa (“the wife he never knew”), but Sansa has no affection for him. Penny, on the other hand, despite the fact that she blames him for her brother’s murder, does show him affection (she kisses him, if I’m not mistaken more than once), but Tyrion doesn’t want her. Others, however, often tell him that she’s his “wife” and Tyrion always corrects them “she’s not my wife”. And note the foreshadow “Tyrion’s penny”, “the dwarf’s penny”.

    Feldman completely missed the parallel/foil here, or didn’t develop it as much. So what does the author want to show us here? Because this is not incidental, it was very deliberate. Imo it’s Tyrion’s chance to leave everything behind and make a new beginning with Penny away from everything that hurt him. Penny is one who wants him, unlike Sansa and Shae. Is he in a position to appreciate that? I think that’s the question that Martin poses to Tyrion. Often we tend to want what’s beyond reach (Sansa), but what if what/who we want is within reach and wants us back?
    [it’s a real life question that has bothered me a lot lately, lol]
    Feldman believed that Penny’s fate would determine Tyrion’s. I tend to believe it’s more than that. What happens to Penny will mirror what has happened to Sansa when she was married to Tyrion.
    In other words, it’ not about theories, it’s about literary structure and analysis and Martin is very deliberate about it.

  385. On a less serious note, I was in the university library these days.
    Libraries were the last to open here, along with international flights from specific countries.
    I was informed at my discomfort that the books I had used the previous day were not available to the visitors of the library because they had undergone disinfection and had be put to a three-day quarantine.
    I mean, whaaaaat?
    Not only did they reduce opening hours more than 50%, they quarantine the books!!!!!
    I’ll have to inform my editor that at that pace he isn’t getting the piece I promised him before Christmas!

  386. Wimsey,

    I agree that it works on the personal level for each and every character. It’s about choices and their consequences. But there’s also structure and hard questions posed to the reader and these are grander than the individuals themselves, i.e.:

    To what extent is maintaining a secret worth the trouble?
    What/who does maintaining the secret benefit? Who/what does it serve?
    Does maintaining a secret help to perpetuate conventions, beliefs and prejudices that hurt individuals, perpetuating along with them the maintenance of the status quo and supporting class and other distinctions?
    In the end, is all that hypocrisy to the benefit of individuals and society in general?

    Take for example Jamie. He killed a king he was supposed to guard. He broke his oath, but he did it to save a million people. He was forever condemned as kingslayer and oathbreaker. When Brienne asks him why he didn’t tell anyone, he simply replied that he had taken an oath to preserve the king’s secret, so telling everybody that the king was about to destroy the city with wildfire was not to be revealed in the morning paper.
    But in the narrative it seems clear that it was even pointless to do so. No one ever questioned his motives, so why bother? They named him “kingslayer and oathbreaker” from moment 1. No one asked why he did that, they just assumed he did it for his father.
    So what does the secret serve in this case, if not the notion that the king is a sacred person and his guards are supposed to guard him and save his life? Well, what if the king is a criminal? What if he beats his wife? (which he did) What if he cooked/burned his lords? Others stood by and watched (see my Tyrion posts) and did nothing about it.

    Well, at least Jamie did something about it, and so did Jon, which is one of the reasons why they’re parallels. [now that I think about it, Jon’s spilling the beans about his parentage might mirror Jamie’s spilling the beans about Aerys rather than be a foil to Ned’s secrecy -just saying]

    In short, one of the big questions posed in ASoIaF, is what will you do when another human being/group/entire people suffer for these hypocritical conventions that are designed to maintain the status quo. (there’s other questions too)

    And this question is part of the big scheme and permeats the entire structure of the book, hence the mirrors/parallels/foils in every page.

  387. Adrianacandle,

    “I don’t know if there’s a mirror or foil with the North specifically because most of the kingdoms bent the knee to Aegon, not only the North. Plus, Dorne has always been kind of the odd duck in Westeros with some of its views and customs being pretty different from the rest of Westeros, including the North.”

    The IT was made from 1000 swords of Aegon’s enemies.
    That doesn’t make a very friendly surrender. If there was a sword missing, it was the North’s and Dorne’s. That’s clear.

  388. Efi,

    That’s unsettling.
    Tywin didn’t DO anything to Tyrion.
    He DID IT to Tysha.
    Tysha was the innocent here. Not Tyrion. Tyrion allowed for this to happen and it haunts him.

    Personally, and I say this not to offend, but I find the notion that Tywin didn’t do this to Tyrion very unsettling and that Tyrion simply allowed for this to happen. Yes, I’d very much say Tywin did this to Tyrion. He was 13-years old, Tywin manipulated Tyrion to believe — via the only family member who loved him (Jaime) — that his wife was a whore who never loved him. He made Tyrion watch as he gang raped her before commanding Tyrion rape her last. And Tywin did this, per the text, to teach Tyrion a “sharp lesson”:

    “A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter’s daughter,” Bronn said. “How did you manage that?”

    “Oh, you’d be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. I dared not bring my bride home to Casterly Rock, so I set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father.” Tyrion was surprised at how desolate it made him feel to say it, even after all these years. Perhaps he was just tired. “That was the end of my marriage.” He sat up and stared at the dying fire, blinking at the light.

    “He sent the girl away?”

    “He did better than that,” Tyrion said. “First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

    “After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she …” The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness.

    “Lord Tywin had me go last,” he said in a quiet voice. “And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more.”

    After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. “Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”

    Tywin had all the power in this situation. The guards answer to Tywin, not Tyrion. Tyrion is the 13-year old unwanted dwarf son. Any power Tyrion had (which was zero, Tywin would even refuse to make Tyrion his heir) came from Tywin.

    Tywin put this in motion to teach Tyrion a “sharp lesson”. He set it up so Tyrion would believe Tysha never loved him, it was the gold she was after, and forced Jaime to make this claim to Tyrion. This was punishment for Tyrion’s defiance and to keep Tyrion in-line, to have him believe he’s unlovable — a notion Tywin reminds him of throughout the text.

    Note Bronn’s line:
    “Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”
    TO ME?????
    TO ME?????
    ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!
    Tyrion suffered a blow to his EGO, nothing more, nothing less.

    Yes, per what I said above, to Tyrion. And I’d say it was far more than a blow to his ego, considering how much Tyrion thinks on it, that he can never be loved, and he’s so angry at Tywin for it. It even results in Tyrion feeling sorry for Joffrey, a boy Tyrion despises:

    Even Tyrion as an adult notes that any power he has comes from Tywin:

    “Too true.” Tyrion would gladly have kept her with him, but his lord father had forbidden it. You will not take the whore to court, Lord Tywin had commanded. Bringing her to the city was as much defiance as he dared. All his authority derived from his father, the girl had to understand that. “You won’t be far,” he promised. “You’ll have a house, with guards and servants, and I’ll visit as often as I’m able.”

    [Part 1]

  389. Efi,

    It’s similar to Cersei’s walk of shame, but in that case it was even worse, because it wasn’t just her ego that was hurt, it was her entire existence as a woman. Cersei escaped rape because she’s a queen.

    I think the Walk of Shame was absolutely horrific, even without a rape. Being made to walk through the streets naked, having insults being hurled at you from all directions, with fruit being thrown at you — and I’d say that’d be terrible for a man too. It takes away every sort of defense and protection a person has — they aren’t permitted to even wear clothing — and force them to walk through a situation in which abuse is being thrown at them from all sides. That’s… pretty bad.

    That is far less than what Tysha suffered because LORD TYRION decided to marry beneath him, going against his father’s wishes and the society’s expectations. Tysha wasn’t as lucky as Cersei, or that important. She was tortured because she was a woman and one who dared to love a Lannister.

    I don’t think that because what Tysha suffered was worse (and it was) invalidates this being another piece of emotional abuse Tywin does to Tyrion as well to keep him in line.

    Yeah, I’d say Tyrion is responsible for marrying Tysha — but not for how Tywin chooses to punish Tyrion for it. And if one wants to blame Tyrion for not seeing through the lie Tywin had set up and forced Jaime to tell Tyrion, and if you want to blame Tyrion for not defying his father in this, okay. But myself, I’m pretty uncomfortable with that notion given the set-up, circumstances, Tyrion’s age, and that Tywin had all the power in this situation. He was manipulating Tyrion, having him put into this damaging sexual situation. If this were a situation in real life, I’d be hard-pressed to call the 13-year old responsible for this.

    Tyrion could have stopped this. He could have snatched Tysha away from the guards. What would his father do? What would the guards do? Kill a Lannister lord? That’s ridiculous.

    They could pursue Tyrion and bring them back, increase the torture. There are punishments worse than death. Tyrion doesn’t have to be killed or even physically harmed to make a consequence even more brutal and impactful.

    The worst that could happen to him would be that he’d be chained and made to watch, and that would have alleviated the burden of guilt completely.
    If Martin meant to exonerate Tyrion, he’d have made up something similar, for conveying just Tywin’s cruelty and Tyrion’s helplessness. But no, the author didn’t do that. Why?

    Because coercion and force doesn’t have to be done via threats and physical action. This is the very idea of emotional abuse. I know we’re slipping into some very difficult territory here and I say this with cautiously…. but I feel this is an issue in real life abuse cases: saying they should have cried out more, protested more, they weren’t physically restrained, they that they let this happen.

    And in these cases, in my very limited knowledge (I’m only going by the cases of emotional abuse that I’ve seen and have seen first-hand but I don’t have a professional background), the guilt these people feel over not doing more, that is a source of trauma. Tyrion feels he could have done more and this also tortures him.

    To me, what you’re describing — being chained and watched as one’s wife is gang raped — is pretty atrocious and goes beyond “the worst that can happen.” And I think it absolutely can get worse. Tywin can increase the torment on an emotional level and this already has left Tyrion messed up. Not all abuse has to be done physically.

    [Part 2]

  390. Efi,

    Later, he received an order to marry Sansa. He executed that too.
    He could have refused, and Sansa would be married to Lancel, a much kinder fate than being married to Tyrion.

    Well, Tyrion didn’t just accept this without objections and we saw what happens when Tyrion refuses Tywin — this above situation with Tysha happens (which I know you say Tywin didn’t do this to Tyrion, Tyrion did this but….).

    Also, Castamere happens:

    This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he’d heard “The Rains of Castamere” echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock.

    As to the rest, can you explain why, in your view, being married to Lancel is a far kinder fate than being married to Tyrion? They’re both Lannisters, both belong to the family holding Sansa hostage and who killed her mother and brother. Is it age? While — oh, yes — it would be very difficult to be married to a man 13-years older than yourself (as opposed to 4), I’m not sure this in and of itself defines a cruel fate, considering age itself does not determine how cruel a man is to his wife (see: Joffrey).

    That order went with the sub-order “bed her once and then when she comes of age”. Considering that Tyrion has done all his father wanted, and that he basically has no objections to his orders, that’s disturbing, and even more so because the ultimate goal was to bed Sansa, and Lancel wouldn’t be capable of that.

    Tyrion definitely did have objections, which Tywin himself notes — among them being that he doesn’t want to marry somebody who wouldn’t want him in his bed and Sansa’s age.

    Yes, it’s demanded that Tyrion impregnate Sansa so as to provide an heir… and Tyrion also refuses to bed Sansa until she wants it.

    I remember Tyrion having some lust for Sansa, finding her attractive, but I don’t remember anything about Tyrion doing this to bed Sansa. He balked when Tywin told him he’d be marrying Sansa, he was deeply unhappy at their wedding, he was uncomfortable that she was a child, knew he was the last man Sansa could have wanted, and yeah, that adds to his misery. He also feels uncomfortable with the marriage, won’t bed her without her consent, and gives Sansa distance. He also knows that because he is a Lannister, he may worsen Sansa’s grief over Robb and Catelyn and thus, he keeps away.

    I’d suppose you can say that an adult Tyrion could have outright rejected Tywin and dealt with the consequences, that he should have done more. But I’d disagree with the assertion that Tyrion was doing this so he can have Sansa all for himself. That’s not what the text demonstrates.

    And I also suppose you can hold Tyrion’s response to Sansa telling him she’ll never want him (His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. “Never?”) against him. Tyrion did wish that she’d want him and he also had a desire to be emotionally close with Sansa too (Tyrion having wished she’d confide in him, share her joys and sorrows with him, etc.). But he never forced this on her — and Tyrion didn’t marry Sansa to bed her.

    I don’t see anything about Tyrion doing all this…. just so he can bed Sansa. Especially given how uncomfortable he is with the notion of marrying her.

    Tyrion may have been 13, but in-universe he was old enough to marry and old enough to go to the army as full-time soldier. He was also a Lannister lord. So he did have the agency to stop it.

    Okay, but I don’t think this suddenly provides Tyrion the power or know-how to stop his father, to have the wisdom and agency of an adult. To overcome the emotional abuse Tywin heaps on him. These are some of the problems being explored in some of the scenarios in the ASOIAF universe — having child brides, child leaders, child soldiers — because they are vulnerable and lack the life experiences/knowledge of an adult, providing these characters with limited insight. This is explored with Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, Jon, Tommen, Joffrey, etc.

    I just don’t know where this power is that you’re talking about. Any power that Tyrion has comes from Tywin. Tywin is not only the most powerful lord in the kingdom — but who the Lannister household answers to.

    He just didn’t want to, because he bought the lie and he took it as a blow to his EGO. ME again.

    Yeah, I really don’t think it’s this simple or that Tyrion didn’t defy Tywin simply because he didn’t want to, especially given the impact it has on Tyrion.

    Everything that happens to Tyrion is about his EGO. When people treat him well, he is happy and satisfied. When they’re not, it’s the opposite.

    I don’t think this is quite the case. Tyrion’s issues of being unloved and hated run deep, that’s why he can’t ever be truly happy. The only time he was happy was, as Tyrion reflects, during his time with Tysha.

    A case in point is the murder of the Yunkai’i master. The master was dying of the bloody flux. Why poison him then? The answer is, revenge. Tyrion wanted the master to understand that he was the one poisoning him, not the flux. Tyrion is that person at the end of ADWD. A vindictive monster. You may argue that there’s still two books to go, but it’s already four books behind.

    Yeah… considering that this master captured Tyrion and was enslaving him and had the intent to feed him to a lion, I can see why Tyrion would want revenge.

    [Part 3]

  391. Efi,

    Sansa and Penny: Tyrion’s family has murdered their brother. They end up being at Tyrion’s mercy. Tyrion is in love with Sansa (“the wife he never knew”), but Sansa has no affection for him. Penny, on the other hand, despite the fact that she blames him for her brother’s murder, does show him affection (she kisses him, if I’m not mistaken more than once), but Tyrion doesn’t want her. Others, however, often tell him that she’s his “wife” and Tyrion always corrects them “she’s not my wife”.

    I don’t think Tyrion loves Sansa. I don’t really see Penny and Sansa as foils or parallels since there’s not a ton there — even with their brothers’ deaths. With Sansa, it’s hard for her because Tyrion belongs to the family who killed her mother and brother. With Penny, she falsely believes Tyrion to be the one who killed her brother when Tyrion had no connection to it whatsoever.

    In regard to the piece you’re referencing, Tyrion is thinking of those he misses — but I don’t know if Tyrion is referring to Sansa in this passage:

    Kem liked that. “Singer’s stew. I’ll ask for that next time I get back to Flea Bottom. What do you miss, Halfman?”

    Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew. “Wine, whores, and wealth,” he answered. “Especially the wealth. Wealth will buy you wine and whores.” It will also buy you swords, and the Kems to wield them.

    Given how much Tyrion refers to Tysha as his wife in the text and thinks at one point, “His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife,” I don’t know if Tyrion is referring to Sansa in the above excerpt. I think he’s referring to Tysha. I’m not sure why Tyrion would miss Sansa? He felt their marriage was a “daily agony” and a big part of that was because he knew Sansa disdained him and why.

    Plus, Tyrion thinks of Sansa all of twice in ADWD. Sansa has three mentions in Tyrion’s ADWD chapters, Shae has 10, Tysha has 15. When Tyrion thinks of his wife, he typically thinks of Tysha.

    I don’t think Tyrion’s relationship with Penny is a true inverse of his relationship with Sansa. Penny’s nature directly counters Tyrion’s cynicism, she is somebody he protects, tries to help, who he eventually tries to protect from cruel truths. Her idealism and optimism in spite of her dwarfism confuses and troubles him, making him angry, as Tyrion’s dwarfism is a source of agony for him and responsible for much of the strife Tyrion has experienced it. Tyrion is also troubled by Penny’s submissiveness, which Penny has engaged as a survival strategy. Penny lacks pride, which Tyrion has — where Penny will allow herself to be mocked without much issue, mockery angers Tyrion greatly.

    They also form a friendship and genuine rapport.

    None of this is really present in Tyrion’s relationship with Sansa.

    And note the foreshadow “Tyrion’s penny”, “the dwarf’s penny”.

    This could mean something! But I think it’s about Tyrion and Penny rather than anything to do with Sansa.

    Feldman completely missed the parallel/foil here, or didn’t develop it as much. So what does the author want to show us here? Because this is not incidental, it was very deliberate. Imo it’s Tyrion’s chance to leave everything behind and make a new beginning with Penny away from everything that hurt him. Penny is one who wants him, unlike Sansa and Shae. Is he in a position to appreciate that? I think that’s the question that Martin poses to Tyrion. Often we tend to want what’s beyond reach (Sansa), but what if what/who we want is within reach and wants us back?

    Well, as you said, this is your interpretation — but it might not be Feldman’s. And if it’s not Feldman’s, the idea that Penny is a Sansa stand-in, I don’t think he’s going to explore it. It’s not my interpretation anyway… :/

    Feldman believed that Penny’s fate would determine Tyrion’s. I tend to believe it’s more than that. What happens to Penny will mirror what has happened to Sansa when she was married to Tyrion.

    Yeah, I don’t think it has much to do with Sansa but more to do with Tyrion and choices he’s facing as he goes forward, who he’ll be. Penny is where Tyrion’s humanity and feeling start to trickle back.

    But also, Tyrion didn’t do anything to Sansa when he was married to her so I’m not sure what you mean? He didn’t force/coerce her, manipulate her, play games with her, he didn’t impose his presence on her, and he gave her space and distance — unless I’m totally blanking on something.

    In other words, it’ not about theories, it’s about literary structure and analysis and Martin is very deliberate about it.

    Well, I think how one sees this (if this is about what one perceives to be parallels and foils) is pretty subjective and open to interpretation. We’re trying to discern what will happen in future books based on published books but what we see as “clues” and a certain structure may not be what the author intends: ie. what one views as foreshadowing and what this piece is foreshadowing — when that may or may not be foreshadowing (or be foreshadowing what the viewer speculates). What one views as a parallel or foil — when that might not be intended to be a parallel or foil (or something that is acted upon, even if the reader feels it is).

    So I think this stuff also have a big overlap with theories because the perception of these pieces and structures are being used in support of that theory. What one views Martin being deliberate about… that’s also subject for discussion.

  392. Efi,

    When Brienne asks him why he didn’t tell anyone, he simply replied that he had taken an oath to preserve the king’s secret, so telling everybody that the king was about to destroy the city with wildfire was not to be revealed in the morning paper.

    I think it was more than that because Jaime laughs when he asks her, “Would you have me break my oath?” (As he had to break an oath to kill Aerys, condemning him as the kingslayer).

    More than that, it was about Jaime feeling pre-judged:

    “The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king’s secrets. Would you have me break my oath?” Jaime laughed. “Do you think the noble Lord of Winterfell wanted to hear my feeble explanations? Such an honorable man. He only had to look at me to judge me guilty.” Jaime lurched to his feet, the water running cold down his chest. “By what right does the wolf judge the lion? By what right?” A violent shiver took him, and he smashed his stump against the rim of the tub as he tried to climb out.

    ___

    [now that I think about it, Jon’s spilling the beans about his parentage might mirror Jamie’s spilling the beans about Aerys rather than be a foil to Ned’s secrecy -just saying]

    I’m not sure how these are mirrors. Jaime confessed the entire truth to one person, revealing the reasons why he took an action that condemned him from the age of 17 onward. People felt that Jaime killed Aerys to secure power for his family but Jaime kept the truth to himself, feeling people have already judged him anyway so they wouldn’t listen.

    He didn’t feel he owed it to Brienne or felt compelled to tell her because she deserved the truth. He was triggered by Brienne saying Robert “rode to save the realm” whereas Jaime‘s actions did save the realm, feeling Robert “did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face.”

    Meanwhile, Jon told Sansa and Arya because he felt he owed them the truth about who he really was and his true identity. He didn’t want to lie to them for the rest of his life. And he trusted Sansa to keep this secret. Yet Sansa broke her promise and this contributed to the fall-out wherein Tyrion tells Varys and Varys betrays Daenerys.

    Likewise, Sansa was sparking another civil war by doing so (which is another reason why I think Jon should have kept quiet). While I don’t think Sansa planned to break her promise when she swore to Jon she’d keep silent, she did break her promise with the intention to prevent Dany from becoming queen. And I think this was a foolish action as well because I see no good outcome: for Jon, for Sansa, for the North, for Dany.

    Sansa viewed Daenerys as a power-hungry tyrant who would stop at nothing to get the throne — and she makes Jon her rival. If Sansa viewed Dany in such a way, why put her own brother in this person’s path to the throne? This puts Jon at risk — if not from Dany, then from Dany’s supporters who want her on the throne. In a claimant war, contenders and/or their supporters work to take other contenders out (Stannis and Renly). Not to mention, this would subject the North to another war, when the North’s forces are already depleted and they’re currently struggling — a war against larger forces with dragons certainly wouldn’t improve things for the North.

    If Brienne told Jaime’s secret, it wouldn’t have this same fallout.

    ___

    The IT was made from 1000 swords of Aegon’s enemies.
    That doesn’t make a very friendly surrender. If there was a sword missing, it was the North’s and Dorne’s. That’s clear.

    I’m not sure I’m understanding. Does the text mention a sword missing? I can’t find an excerpt saying this. The North submitted to Aegon the Conquerer, like the other kingdoms except for Dorne.

    Yes, he conquered Westeros. But I’m not sure how what you’re saying creates a parallel between Dorne and the North.

  393. Adrianacandle,

    Personally, and I say this not to offend, but I find the notion that Tywin didn’t do this to Tyrion very unsettling and that Tyrion simply allowed for this to happen. Yes, I’d very much say Tywin did this to Tyrion. He was 13-years old, Tywin manipulated Tyrion to believe — via the only family member who loved him (Jaime) — that his wife was a whore who never loved him. He made Tyrion watch as he gang raped her before commanding Tyrion rape her last. And Tywin did this, per the text, to teach Tyrion a “sharp lesson”.

    Amendment since I don’t think I addressed this enough — this was definitely done to Tysha, too, who certainly suffered the most and definitely the worst in this.

  394. Adrianacandle,

    I agree that emotional and verbal abuse can be very hard on everyone.

    But I’d never think that being emotionally abused is worse than being, in any physical manner, beaten/raped/tortured/chained/maimed.

    What Cersei and Tyrion went through is not even close to what Tysha/Sansa/Pia/Jeyne Poole/Theon and many others have been through.

    Otherwise our own world collapses if we come to justify crime.
    By saying that Tyrion was blameless because he was lied to and because he feared his father is justifying the crime that was committed against his wife, because he was the only one who could have stopped it.
    Being in a position to stop it and choosing not to makes him complicit in the crime. That’s what I’m saying.

    By saying that he wasn’t responsible, like modern-day children aren’t responsible, is denying the fact that in-universe he was old enough to marry. If he was, then he was old enough to stop it.
    I don’t know any country where minors are married without parental consent today, but I’m guessing there must be at least one. So, in a modern scenario, this wouldn’t have happened anyway. [there’s countries where worse is happening to children with regard to marriage, but with parental initiative.]

    Perhaps it’s just me. I live in a country where crime is not justified for any reason. Carrying weapons is absolutely forbidden and if you don’t have a license you’re screwed. If someone attacks you and you kill him because you’re carrying a weapon, you’ll undergo charges of involutary slaughter and you’ll be found guilty but if the assault is proved you’ll be out on parole. Your record, however, will be blemished forever. [not such a big deal; it only counts if you’re working in the public sector, but not even the p.s. cares]
    The reason for this is that without weapons there’s no escalation. The fault is that it looks as if you are actually being denied a chance to save yourself, but fighting back and indeed with a weapon does lead to escalation and -in many cases- death. The purpose is to preserve human life, so if a robber comes, give the f*cking money. You can get money, but you can’t make life.

    I have a friend who had undergone a very difficult divorce. It was very hard on her. One Christmas Eve, she went out to celebrate and left the tree’s lights on. But there was defective circuit, the house caught fire. She was condemned for arson. Was she at fault? Well, there certainly were mitigating circumstances. Was she justified because of them to be so absent-minded? No. She was actually lucky that no one got hurt, because then she would be charged and found guilty for that, too.

  395. Efi,

    I agree that emotional and verbal abuse can be very hard on everyone.
    But I’d never think that being emotionally abused is worse than being, in any physical manner, beaten/raped/tortured/chained/maimed.

    I think it’s very possible for emotional abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse and rape. And I think it can mess somebody up just as much.

    But I’m not a professional. I don’t have any kind of formal education to speak about this with any authority.

    What Cersei and Tyrion went through is not even close to what Tysha/Sansa/Pia/Jeyne Poole/Theon and many others have been through.

    I’d disagree with this too. Having grown up with your father saying stuff like this to you:

    “You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

    Growing up unloved, hated, blamed for your mother’s death via your birth, having a father who feels this way about you…. I think that’s really bad.

    But more than that, I don’t think this is a competition — who has it worse, who has the more terrible trauma. It doesn’t invalidate anybody else’s suffering, like in real life.

    Otherwise our own world collapses if we come to justify crime.
    By saying that Tyrion was blameless because he was lied to and because he feared his father is justifying the crime that was committed against his wife, because he was the only one who could have stopped it.
    Being in a position to stop it and choosing not to makes him complicit in the crime. That’s what I’m saying.

    Tyrion was a 13-year old who was coerced, abused, manipulated, lied to, and he had no power in this situation. No, I don’t think he can just say the word and they’d stop. The guards don’t answer to Tyrion, they answer to Tywin — and Tywin can always make it worse. Tywin has the power. If you want to blame him for succumbing to the manipulations of his father (performed through his brother), not defying Tywin, and succumbing to Tywin’s demand that he rape Tysha… okay. I can’t stop you or demand you to change your thinking. All I can do is offer my view. But this, personally, does make me uncomfortable, given the circumstances of this happening re: Tyrion/Tysha/Tywin. I don’t see how — in any way — Tyrion was in a position to stop Tywin’s will, especially as a 13-year old.

    By saying that he wasn’t responsible, like modern-day children aren’t responsible, is denying the fact that in-universe he was old enough to marry. If he was, then he was old enough to stop it.

    I think I addressed this above. A law determining you are old enough to do something does not mean you are old enough to have the necessary power or wield it (in other situations), or to have the life experiences, knowledge, and agency of an adult. To overcome the emotional abuse and see through the manipulations Tywin is inflicting on him. Or to be successful with this choice.

    And if a modern day child was in this situation, the one Tyrion was in, yes, I’d say the same thing.

    If a modern day child just up and murdered somebody because they were angry and upset, there was no coercion, no manipulation, that would probably be a different situation requiring a different assessment model than the situation Tyrion was in.

    These situations would need to be examined on a case-by-case basis.

    Yes, Tyrion is responsible for marrying Tysha. I didn’t deny that. But no, I don’t think he is responsible for how Tywin chooses to punish him. And I don’t see how Tyrion could stop this since what power does Tyrion have? Who is going to obey Tyrion’s command over that of Tywin’s?

    I don’t feel I can comment on the real-life situations you’re bringing up as comparisons because I don’t see enough similarities to draw an effective parallel. The situations are pretty different.

  396. Adrianacandle,

    Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy.

    It occurred to me in a rewatch of GOT how richly the Lannisters deserved their destruction in “The Bells”. Under Tywin, genocide had become the Lannisters’ favourite sport. How many clans or houses had they exterminated? The Reynes of Castamere and the Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall were just for starters. At the finale of the rebellion against the Targaryens the Lannisters under Tywin in double treachery wipe out the inhabitants of Kings Landing.

    Remember that the Red Wedding is a genocide of sorts – a massacre of a significant percentage of the (unarmed) males of house Stark. Tyrion Lannister has lived through most of all of these genocides.

    So when Daenerys and Drogon torch the city filled with Cersei’s human shield civilians, then according to cold logic there is a justice and even a rightness to it. Symmetry at least. Yes, genocide is naughty, slap wrist or stab heart, whatever. But (sorry for saying this) MY GOD IT WAS SATISFYING. From the perspective of cinematography and storytelling at least. Just saying … ok I’m a bad person.

    This was a white-haired Targaryen with a big nuclear dragon. They kill a sibling dragon and behead Missandei in front of her. And the Targ true to form loses it. It’s almost as if Cersei wanted the holocaust of KL. With the Targaryen’s diminished responsibility I almost agree with Daenerys that Cersei is principally responsible, and deliberately so, for KL’s fate.

    It is somewhat analogous in earth history to the destruction of Kiev by the Mongolian army under Batu in the 10th century (I think). Mongolian emissaries are sent to Kiev. Their heads are thrown back over the city walls. So the Mongolian horde does what they do. (In some historical accounts of the Horde’s annihilation of cities it is written how fat would flow in the streets.)

    Thus, Tyrion’s moral browbeating and anguished attempts to avert the burning of KL and it’s inhabitants seems hypocritical, or merely tribal, even if morally right. OK he wasn’t to blame for the Lannister genocides and to his “credit” he slays the genocide perpetrator Tywin. But irony and contradiction remain.

  397. Dire guineapig,

    It occurred to me in a rewatch of GOT how richly the Lannisters deserved their destruction in “The Bells”. Under Tywin, genocide had become the Lannisters’ favourite sport. How many clans of houses had they exterminated? The Reynes of Castamere and the Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall were just for starters. At the finale of the rebellion against the Targaryens the Lannisters under Tywin in double treachery wipe out the inhabitants of Kings Landing.
    Remember that the Red Wedding is a genocide of sorts – a massacre of a significant percentage of the (unarmed) males of house Stark. Tyrion Lannister has lived through most of all of these genocides.

    Tywin definitely did (or arranged) a ton of massacring. I don’t think Tywin quite wiped out the inhabitants of King’s Landing the way Dany did — there was definitely a sack of the city, which was terrible (understatement) — he didn’t have the means to wipe out an entire city without a dragon (and would Tywin? No inhabitants means no subjects ;D I think he’d consider that!). However, yes, Tywin certain did (or orchestrated) some murder on epic levels.

    I don’t know if I’d call these genocides though. Genocide would be the deliberate extermination of an ethnic group, race, or tribe for that purpose. I’m not sure if a single house counts as a tribe? I’d definitely call it a massacre though.

    But maybe I’m wrong and somebody else can weigh in 🙂 I’m also no expert in genocide and democide and what constitutes either. I only have access to basic definitions of the words.

  398. Adrianacandle:
    Efi,

    Oh, I didn’t mean about the city but about how Cersei feels about fire 🙂 And she has that part in one passage where if the fire spreads, let the city see because it’ll send a message.

    I think symbolism is tricky. I think that we’ve gotten to the point where a lot of overthinking has occurred — and I suspect much of that is due to having 9 years — in which nearly the entirety of the show has started and ended — to think about this stuff. Consequently, we have every interpretation and theory that could possibly be thought out there.

    In this way, I think some are going to be disappointed. Some theory crafters have developed these really intricate, convoluted theories — when really, what might end up happening might be what a lot of fans who have engaged so deeply with theories would think too obvious (ie. Jaime as valonqar), as Wimsey talked about.

    And the thing is, this probably wouldn’t be obvious if the books were released on a few years apart and we didn’t had so much time to analyse and think and overthink.

    I think Feldman did consider the previous books because he references Tyrion’s history when trying to analyse his ADWD story — particularly his pretty resentful feelings for his family and how he’s gotten to this really dark place now. But I also think it’s not a done deal that Tyrion will keep on this path of darkness forever. Tyrion’s story is also far from over too and I don’t think his character is quite set yet with at least two more books to go.

    I’m responding to a number of your detailed posts about Tyrion, Tywin, and Tysha. It brings up many issues that I have with GRRM’s messaging about the world we live in, which I’ll get back to in a few minutes…

    I agree with both Efi and Adrianacandle on different points. I do agree that 13 in Westeros is not 13 in our world of 2020. I think that the Tyrion/Tywin/Tysha incident was mostly about Tywin having the power and putting Tyrion in his place. Tywin created a scene of torture for both Tyrion and Tysha. It’s a horribly sick thing that Tywin is doing, and in his own sick mind he’s thinking it’s a life lesson for Tyrion. It would be difficult for Tyrion to stand up to Tywin in that moment. I’m not sure if it’s just about age. He’s in shock from the revelation that his marriage was all a setup. He’s probably thinking as a dwarf that no one will ever love him since he looks like a monster, and he thought Tysha actually did love him. Then he has the father approval issues going on in his subconscious. I do think in the books in particular he is haunted that he couldn’t stand up to his father, which is why I think he keeps repeating the “wherever whores go” or “where do whores go” line. I can’t totally blame Tyrion for not being able to stand up to Tywin in that moment. It does lead to him standing up with his crossbow and killing Tywin. However, I have a very hard time getting past Tyrion killing Shae. GRRM is probably saying that in the real world, people do these horrible crimes of passion. I just don’t want to watch it happen and I think it’s irredeemable. I have no problem on the other hand letting Tyrion’s murder of his father go. I think that was when Tyrion finally was able to stand up to the powerful Tywin. That moment with the crossbow had it’s roots with the Tysha incident IMHO.

    The hard part of me to get past is that GRRM (and D&D) show a world that is broken, and that the people who value human kindness get their worlds destroyed. I’m back on the “mercy” theme again. I’m thinking of Dany’s world now. She sees the women being raped and she orders it to stop. What does her mercy get her? She loses her husband, the witch she saves turns against her, and Dany’s whole world is destroyed (for the moment). Humanity, kindness, and mercy doesn’t end well for anyone in Westeros. That is very depressing to me. I don’t want to live in Arya and Sandor’s world where the only way to survive is to be cold and to look out for yourself.

    D&D in The Bells episode show more horrible scenes of soldiers assaulting women. I don’t understand this “beast” that comes out. But GRRM and D&D want to show it to us. Thank G-d that Jon was there to stop that incident.

    I do think that Ramsey and Theon/Reek had a similar torture sequence where Ramsey forces Reek to watch Ramsey assault Sansa. I couldn’t watch it, but he made Theon watch. Just horrid, and it makes me sick thinking that this is our world and there are people out there that do these things. How do we get to a place where humanity wins out? What does GRRM say about that? I’m not as much of a scholar with the book references as both of you. Perhaps GRRM does gives us some hope somewhere. And perhaps that is what The Long Night is really all about. It’s the long night in our totally broken world where cynicism, violence, and power are what is valued. I would love to hear if you have found some hope in the 5000+ pages that someday we will be able to get past the darkness and people will be rewarded for caring for each other. We can live in a world where power isn’t G-d, and we can learn to take care of each other and care for each other. Of course, if I think like that, I won’t last long in Westeros.

    Sorry for the rant… I’ll end there for now. I had a few other thoughts..perhaps later…

  399. Tron79,

    Writing the last post made me think of one of my favorite obscure movies called “Tomorrow Ever After”. It’s made on a “micro budget” so don’t expect the best acting and production value. But the themes are profound. The main character is from 600 years in the future. Her world is a world where everyone takes care of each other. She is studying history about the time of the “great despair” (our time). There is an accident and she ends up in NYC in 2017. It’s profound to see her interact with people in 2017. She reaches out to hug them and they think she’s nuts. I Bought it on amazon prime. I’m not sure if it’s available anywhere else. I showed parts of it that didn’t have the F word to my class and the kids were taken aback by the low budget and acting. The star is not a Hollywood Star. Her looks would not be what people value as beautiful in our society. I found the whole movie fascinating, and I want to life in her world instead of in a world where people don’t even know their neighbor’s name. I think her world is the world we want when we dream of spring.

  400. OT: I was just looking at the image on the sidebar of Waymar Royce’s cut off head from the Twitter post and can’t help but think what an excellent Ramsey that actor would’ve made. He just had a certain viciousness / nastiness about him that was exuded in a very subtle way. Also had the perfect look. iirc, Iwan Rheon auditioned for the part of Waymar Royce and lost out to this actor. It’s too bad, though I thought much of the casting was spot on for the series, I was never a fan of Iwan Rheon as Ramsey. Always came across to me as very cartoonish and over the top (thought he did do a good job at the Sansa wedding). Not a good performance imo.

  401. Tron79,

    How do we get to a place where humanity wins out? What does GRRM say about that? I’m not as much of a scholar with the book references as both of you. Perhaps GRRM does gives us some hope somewhere. And perhaps that is what The Long Night is really all about. It’s the long night in our totally broken world where cynicism, violence, and power are what is valued. I would love to hear if you have found some hope in the 5000+ pages that someday we will be able to get past the darkness and people will be rewarded for caring for each other. We can live in a world where power isn’t G-d, and we can learn to take care of each other and care for each other. Of course, if I think like that, I won’t last long in Westeros.

    I agree with you here and I’m hoping GRRM’s message for his world isn’t totally cynical nihilistic.

    But I do think there have been examples where empathy has led to something good. I think this is demonstrated a lot in Jon’s story. Jon befriends the recruits he initially look down on, building his ability to connect with others that will be quite important for the theme of unity and connecting disparate groups in Jon’s story — which I think is needed to survive whatever is coming and to build a better world, being able to understand one another on some level.

    He reaches out to a boy everyone else looks down on, defending him, and befriends him. Plus, Jon encourages Sam’s scholarly skills, knowing that a castle needs all kinds of skills to run well. To save Sam from Alliser, he convinces Aemon to allow Sam to become a steward, pointing out his skill set — something that I imagine will pay off vis a vis with what Sam will discover. And if Jon didn’t connect with the wildlings or have any empathy for them, he would not have realized the true purpose of the Night’s Watch: it’s for the Watch to defend all the realms of men, including the wildlings, and with empathy comes a certain unity. And it (unintentionally) wins Jon the loyalty of some passing through the Wall, who pledge their weapons to him. And it’s these kinds of connections that I think will be needed to come together to survive the oncoming Long Night.

    GRRM says this:

    I’m not an “American First” (and maybe because I read science fiction) I’m a “Terran First”. I’m a human being first. And I have this sympathy for other human beings no matter what side of the giant ice wall they happen to be born on.

    And I think that’s an idea he’s trying to explore with Jon’s chapters. And Jon is punished when he opts for war, not peace, against Ramsay with a few knives to the gut.

    There certainly are times when compassion and caring are punished. But I think being able to understand somebody else’s point of view, I think that will have an important role because without that, we’re all divided.

  402. Adrianacandle:
    Tron79,

    Thanks for the movie recommendation!

    No Problem. Now something totally different popped up on Netflix just now “Warrior Nun”. Very intriguing so far About this girl who dies and gets some warrior nun power thing in her back. I don’t think it will have any far reaching themes But I like it so far!.

    Regarding Jon I can see your points. Tyrion is helps Jon begin his transformation to have empathy for the other men who were forced to take the black. But even Jon has his good intentions thrown back in his face. I’m thinking about Ollie in the show. Jon was good to Ollie grooming him as his steward. Ollie in turn kills him. But I will say that Jon and Sam both do have some examples of coming out OK even though they choose Mercy. Jon comes out fine after showing Mercy to Mance in the show. Jon sacrifices himself to hold off the WW so Dany, Drogon and company can get away and ends up getting rescued by Uncle Benjen. You are right that at least there are some incidents. Sam takes a risk and cures Jorah of grayscale. So yes i can see that at least there is a glimmer of humanity to hold onto to give us some hope. Thanks. But then again Jon’s mercy for the wildlings ends badly for him. And he wasn’t just being merciful, he was being pragmatic. Since the wildlings would just end up in the army of the dead it made pragmatic sense to let behind the wall. Even so, it doesn’t work out well.

    I saw the GRRM interview you quoted. I did love that was part of what he had in mind that we are all terrans no matter what side of a wall we were born on. I’ve been watching lots of NASA lately and the views of the one earth from the moon tell it all. I do appreciate that GRRM is communicating this message.

  403. Tron79,

    Regarding Jon I can see your points. Tyrion is helps Jon begin his transformation to have empathy for the other men who were forced to take the black. But even Jon has his good intentions thrown back in his face. I’m thinking about Ollie in the show. Jon was good to Ollie grooming him as his steward. Ollie in turn kills him. But I will say that Jon and Sam both do have some examples of coming out OK even though they choose Mercy. Jon comes out fine after showing Mercy to Mance in the show. Jon sacrifices himself to hold off the WW so Dany, Drogon and company can get away and ends up getting rescued by Uncle Benjen. You are right that at least there are some incidents. Sam takes a risk and cures Jorah of grayscale. So yes i can see that at least there is a glimmer of humanity to hold onto to give us some hope. Thanks. But then again Jon’s mercy for the wildlings ends badly for him. And he wasn’t just being merciful, he was being pragmatic. Since the wildlings would just end up in the army of the dead it made pragmatic sense to let behind the wall. Even so, it doesn’t work out well.

    Right (and I think I was reflecting more on the books). And you’re right that there is a practicality to Jon letting the wildlings through, but it’s also born of an empathy and getting past a preconception that they’re only enemies (thanks to his experiences beyond the Wall). Compassion and humanitarian motives are the primary driving forces behind his suicide rescue missions to Hardhome (which don’t go well so I think that damages my argument 🙂 ).

    But I think without empathy, without that recognition that they are people too, without Jon recognizing the wildlings are human and not simply the enemies he was told about his whole life, he couldn’t have made that connection — that the wildlings are part of the realms of men the Watch is sworn to protect.

    This from the books:

    “And saved the Wall, mayhaps,” said Bowen Marsh. “These are enemies we speak of. Let them pray amongst the ruins, and if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them.”

    Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. “Cotter Pyke’s galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands.”

    “Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings.”

    Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. “Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?”

    Above the door the raven muttered, “Dead, dead, dead.”

    “Let me tell you what will happen,” Jon said. “The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us.” He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. “You have my leave to go.”

    Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it. 

    “I am the sword in the darkness,” said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were changing, growing stronger, more certain. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.”

    The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse’s unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant’s overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men.

    [This, above, is my second favourite passage 🙂 ]

    And I think in this way, empathy opens the door to this realization, something that I think is crucial to surviving together. Otherwise, the wildlings would be lumped in as enemies from beyond the Wall with the Others.

    I saw the GRRM interview you quoted. I did love that was part of what he had in mind that we are all terrans no matter what side of a wall we were born on. I’ve been watching lots of NASA lately and the views of the one earth from the moon tell it all. I do appreciate that GRRM is communicating this message.

    Me too! (And I’ve also been watching a lot of NASA stuff! I went down a Chris Hadfield YT hole recently, learning why space smells like burnt steak 🙂 )

  404. Adrianacandle:
    Tron79,

    Thanks for the movie recommendation!

    You want movie recommendations?
    Somewhere I’ve got lists of my Favorite Movies of All Time; Top Guilty Pleasure Movies; Outstanding Performance(s) in an Otherwise Average Movie; Top Ten Comedies; and a whole bunch of other categories.
    (I’m partial to outer space movies, so I could make a long list of my favorites..)

  405. Ten Bears,

    I have never heard an abuse survivor say she is thankful that it happened or else she’d still be naive and innocent. Unfortunately, that’s how I perceived Sansa’s dialogue in that scene….

    I think you should watch it again. Sandor had wanted Sansa to leave King’s Landing with her after Blackwater, and she had refused. He claims that had she gone with him, none of her suffering would have happened, and she replies that without this suffering, she’d still be the helpless person he was offering to protect. She never says or implies she was in any way thankful for her suffering; indeed, she actually smiles when she recalls how she had tortured Ramsay to death with his own hounds.

    The Hound was reproaching his hostess (!) for not having gratefully accepted his offer of protection, and she replied that by not going along with him, she has become a person who does not need his protection. In both tone and content, his criticism of her was arrogant and condescending, and she wore her “Lady’s Armor” (courtesy) well when she riposted. It’s one of the very few scenes with Sansa where I actually admire her character. (No disrespect meant to Sophie Turner, of course!)

  406. Adrianacandle,

    Can I ask what may sound like a tone-deaf question about the books! Tyrion – Tysha incident you’ve been discussing, and specifically, the horrific gang rape ordered by Tywin and Tyrion’s participation in it?

    Let’s see if I can phrase this in a dignified way…
    How was Tyrion able to “perform” in such an emotionally fraught setting? He must have been at least a little distressed or upset. And then to have to copulate with Tysha after all of Tywin’s guards went before him? How awful.

    Sorry if this sounds crude. I just can’t envision any guy being able to “function” in that scenario,
    unless he was somehow aroused by what was happening – which itself would be kind of gross.

    Did GRRM explain how Tyrion’s emotional state enabled him to comply with his father’s horrible instructions? Even if he believed Tysha was a whore, did GRRM portray him as such a lecherous lowlife that he was able to get excited under those circumstances?

  407. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    P.S. You wrote that: ”It’s one of the very few scenes with Sansa where I actually admire her character. (No disrespect meant to Sophie Turner, of course!)”

    Give me a little time to finish putting together today’s lighthearted Musical Interlude dedicated to Sansa in S4e8, with two of the scenes in which I admired her character.

  408. Ten Bears,

    Sorry if this sounds crude. I just can’t envision any guy being able to “function” in that scenario,
    unless he was somehow aroused by what was happening – which itself would be kind of gross.
    Did GRRM explain how Tyrion’s emotional state enabled him to comply with his father’s horrible instructions? Even if he believed Tysha was a whore, did GRRM portray him as such a lecherous lowlife that he was able to get excited under those circumstances?

    Well, from what I’ve seen and read, arousal isn’t the same as consent, desire, or want and doesn’t necessarily reflect this. It’s a physical response to a number of stimuli, including fear. People don’t even have to be conscious to experience arousal. Male victims can have erections in the midst of abuse and being raped themselves. Female victims can produce arousal fluid and experience orgasms during rape. This often leads to feelings of being betrayed by their bodies in these cases. This link covers this topic (I’d recommend giving this a read-through).

  409. Ten Bears: You want movie recommendations?
    Somewhere I’ve got lists of my Favorite Movies of All Time; Top Guilty Pleasure Movies; Outstanding Performance(s) in an Otherwise Average Movie; Top Ten Comedies; and a whole bunch of other categories.
    (I’m partial to outer space movies, so I could make a long list of my favorites..)

    Yes, always!! 🙂

    And yes, please recommend space movies! I just rewatched Apollo 13 and if anybody has recommendations for similar movies, I’d love that.

    Speaking of which, here is astronaut Chris Hadfield reviewing space movies 🙂

    (GoT connection: comment on this video reads, “Chris dropped all his titles like a game of thrones character.”)

  410. Adrianacandle,

    I’m more interested in a list of movies that connected with you, Ten Bears and others, because of a particular character or theme. But here are my favorite space movies in the order that they came to my mind…

    Game of Space Thrones (sorry, that’s not a real movie, but it came to mind)
    Galaxy Quest (great to take the stress off….also great for Star Trek fans)
    Serenity (I only mention this because you said a movie, and I loved the TV series Firefly, which this comes from..)
    Lifeforce (1985). Well, this is definitely an awful movie, but maybe the most memorable for me. I went to see this with my wife back in 1985 and it starts off with a naked vampire in space and it goes downhill from there… Fond memories of bad date movies!
    Contact When I rewatch this, it always feels long, but there’s something about this movie that always gets to me. I love how arrogant us earthlings are in this movie with adding to the design of the craft with thinking they must need a chair.
    Prospect with Pedro Pascal with sort of an Arya and Hound trek through the jungle of another planet. It doesn’t come close to Arya and Sandor, but I really did connect with this movie, and it has a GOT tie in!

    There are so many, I’ll just list those for now!

  411. Tron79: I’m more interested in a list of movies that connected with you, Ten Bears and others, because of a particular character or theme. But here are my favorite space movies in the order that they came to my mind…

    Game of Space Thrones (sorry, that’s not a real movie, but it came to mind)
    Galaxy Quest (great to take the stress off….also great for Star Trek fans)
    Serenity (I only mention this because you said a movie, and I loved the TV series Firefly, which this comes from..)
    Lifeforce (1985). Well, this is definitely an awful movie, but maybe the most memorable for me. I went to see this with my wife back in 1985 and it starts off with a naked vampire in space and it goes downhill from there… Fond memories of bad date movies!
    Contact When I rewatch this, it always feels long, but there’s something about this movie that always gets to me. I love how arrogant us earthlings are in this movie with adding to the design of the craft with thinking they must need a chair.
    Prospect with Pedro Pascal with sort of an Arya and Hound trek through the jungle of another planet. It doesn’t come close to Arya and Sandor, but I really did connect with this movie, and it has a GOT tie in!

    Thanks for your list!! As for space-related movies that I really liked, the ones I’ve felt engaged in are more the ones that re-enact history related to space flight (Apollo 13 and Hidden Figures). Of the movies Chris Hadfield reviewed, I like those two, Passengers, and Wall-E 🙂 (Oh dude, there are some disturbing theories centering around Wall-E that I can send you! Think in the realm of Jojen paste…) I also admittedly enjoyed Gravity, though I think Hadfield’s criticisms are sound.

    I haven’t seen The Martian, First Man, or Sunshine.

    But a sort-of-related movie I really liked was Arrival (with Amy Adams)! (It’s about contact with aliens)

    I am interested in Contact — what year is that from and who is the starring cast? I looked up a movie ‘Contact’ and saw one starring Jodie Foster. Is that the movie?

    Lifeforce (1985). Well, this is definitely an awful movie, but maybe the most memorable for me. I went to see this with my wife back in 1985 and it starts off with a naked vampire in space and it goes downhill from there… Fond memories of bad date movies!

    This one sounds very, very intriguing!! XDDD That it goes downhill from a naked vampire in space!

    I’m interested in Prospect and I remember Serenity, yes! That was the movie for the Firefly series, done by Joss Whedon, back in 2003. I know it developed a cult following and that Fox didn’t treat the series all that well (airing only a portion of episodes and out of order at that). My dad really likes Firefly!

  412. Adrianacandle: Thanks for your list!! As for space-related movies that I really liked, the ones I’ve felt engaged in are more the ones that re-enact history related to space flight (Apollo 13 and Hidden Figures). Of the movies Chris Hadfield reviewed, I like those two, Passengers, and Wall-E 🙂 (Oh dude, there are some disturbing theories centering around Wall-E that I can send you! Think in the realm of Jojen paste…) I also admittedly enjoyed Gravity, though I think Hadfield’s criticisms are sound.

    I haven’t seen The Martian, First Man, or Sunshine.

    But a sort-of-related movie I really liked was Arrival (with Amy Adams)! (It’s about contact with aliens)

    I am interested in Contact — what year is that from and who is the starring cast? I looked up a movie ‘Contact’ and saw one starring Jodie Foster. Is that the movie?

    This one sounds very, very intriguing!! XDDD That it goes downhill from a naked vampire in space!

    I’m interested in Prospect and I remember Serenity, yes! That was the movie for the Firefly series, done by Joss Whedon, back in 2003. I know it developed a cult following and that Fox didn’t treat the series all that well (airing only a portion of episodes and out of order at that). My dad really likes Firefly!

    Contact was from 1997 with Jodie Foster. There’s something about that movie I really enjoy, but as I said, it does get slow moving at times. I have watched it several times though.

    I almost put Hidden Figures too, but I stopped listing… I didn’t put it because they weren’t in space. Yes it does have to do with going in space, but I was sticking to movies that were set in outer space. That being said, I love that movie. I watched it again recently. I was amazed with the real human “computers”. It’s a very timely movie now with what has been going on in the country. Those talented women were heroes.

    Re: The Martian, First Man, or Sunshine.
    I’ve seen The Martian two or three times, and I think it’s worth the watch. “Science the crap out of it” to get yourself back home! I haven’t seen First Man or Sunshine!

    I was one of those in the cult following of Firefly…. I find that Guardians of the Galaxy has a little bit of a similar feel.

  413. Tron79,

    I’ll look for my list of space movies.
    – I know “The Martian” is on it, and not just because Ned Stark co-stars in it.
    – “Enemy Mine” is probably on it, mainly because it took an unexpected turn. (After space dogfight, human and alien adversaries wind up marooned together on desolate planet. And then…) Plus, the actress who plays “Minuet” on Star Trek: TNG is in it.
    – I’m not sure if this movie is on my Space Movies list, my Guilty Pleasure list, or both:
    “Alien Resurrection.” Joss Whedon wrote the script, I think. And Sigourney Weaver, Winona Ryder, and Ron “Hellboy” Perlman were in it. I actually thought it was the best “Aliens” movie.

    I’ll have to look for my complete lists.

    P.S. I have “Serenity” recorded on my DVR. I have not gotten around to watching it yet.
    Also, while I’m not sure if “District 9” qualifies as a space movie, that was a real trip.

  414. Tron79,

    Contact was from 1997 with Jodie Foster. There’s something about that movie I really enjoy, but as I said, it does get slow moving at times. I have watched it several times though.

    Definitely interested now! I quite like Jodie Foster 🙂

    I almost put Hidden Figures too, but I stopped listing… I didn’t put it because they weren’t in space. Yes it does have to do with going in space, but I was sticking to movies that were set in outer space. That being said, I love that movie. I watched it again recently. I was amazed with the real human “computers”. It’s a very timely movie now with what has been going on in the country. Those talented women were heroes.

    Yeah! And you’re totally right — I thought about that, this wasn’t a movie taking place in space, it just covered the work being done on the ground in relation to space travel. So no, it doesn’t quite qualify as a space movie 🙂

    On the topic of real human computers, this isn’t related to space, but it reminds me of The Imitation Game — a movie I also really enjoyed (the first computer developed by Alan Turing during WWII). I think some consider this innovation to be the true start of the digital revolution (all the way back in the 40s!).

    Re: The Martian, First Man, or Sunshine.
    I’ve seen The Martian two or three times, and I think it’s worth the watch. “Science the crap out of it” to get yourself back home! I haven’t seen First Man or Sunshine!

    Definitely going watch The Martian now!!

    I was one of those in the cult following of Firefly…. I find that Guardians of the Galaxy has a little bit of a similar feel.

    Yes! I remember that time! Joss Whedon gave an interview and it had three questions:

    Q: Will Buffy be over this year?
    A: God, I hope so.

    Q: Will Angel be over this year?
    A: No.

    Q: Will Firefly be over this year?
    A: God, I hope not.

    (The above is paraphrasing! I can’t find this interview now, it’s been 17 years but I remembered Joss Whedon’s responses quite clearly! Exhausted by Buffy, still committed to Angel, and his new passion was Firefly).

  415. Adrianacandle,

    Here’s a scene from “Alien Resurrection” (1997). Semi-spoiler alert if you haven’t seen it. The scene kind of summarizes the premise.

    What’s inside me?… What’s inside me??… What’s in-f*cking-side me!!!

    🙂


    ——-

  416. Ten Bears,

    Oooh, is that the movie upon which all those parodies depicting a creature busting from somebody’s stomach are based on?

    The last line (“I’m that monster’s mother.”) 😀

  417. Adrianacandle,

    FYI: I just double-checked. Joss Whedon did write the screenplay for “Alien Resurrection.” (It wasn’t just another “space movie.” I thought it had some good high thread count moments, especially between

    Ripley 2.0 (Sigourney Weaver) and Call (Winona Ryder), and some freaky moments with the scientist played by Brad Dourif.

    )

    Trivia: Dan Hedaya (Cher’s father in “Clueless”) was also in “Alien Resurrection,” playing a general. He also co-starred in one of the movies in my Top Ten, the offbeat “Freeway” starring a young Reese Witherspoon.

  418. Ten Bears,

    Ahhh, Cher’s father:

    Cher: What’s up, Daddy?
    Mel: What the hell is that?!
    Cher: A dress.
    Mel: Says who?
    Cher: Calvin Klein.

    🤣🤣🤣

    Oh, Joss Whedon wrote it? 🙂 Definitely adding to my list! So I’ve got Contact, The Martian, Prospect, Alien Resurrection, definitely curious about Lifeforce based on Tron’s summary and I may want to see Guardians of the Galaxy 🙂

    I think the stomach bursting was first introduced in a prior Aliens movie, and then parodied by Mel Brooks in “Spaceballs.”

    Oooh, okay! That makes more sense!

  419. Part 1 of 2
    Prelude to
    Musical Interlude
    Dedication to Sansa Stark

    Sansa & Littlefinger (S4e8)
    Clip #1 (1:15 long)
    Sansa to LF (at 0:58):
    “I know what you want.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csxai6vEoyg

    + Clip #2 (1:07 long)
    Sansa appears at top of the stairs with sexy new look. (at 0:37 – 1:07):
    Shall we go?”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxTrEb9U6o0

    [As I posted a few days ago:]
    I like watching those two clips back to back.
    In the second clip, as Sansa appears in her new dress and sashays down the stairs framed by sunlight, LF practically drools – sort of a visual manifestation of her earlier statement in the first clip: “I know what you want.”

  420. Part 2 of 2 (Cont. from 9:40 am)
    Musical Interlude
    Dedication to Sansa Stark
    Sansa to LF: “I know what you want.”

    🎶“I know what boys like,
    I know what guys want
    .”🎵

    “I Know What Boys Like” –
    The Waitresses (live, April 29, 1982) 3:45 long

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaYfca_zauY

    (at 2:43 – 2:46): “You sucker!”😂

    ———
    “I Know What Boys Like” (1982)
    The Waitresses (music video) 3:14 long

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsneH0mOq-0

    P.S. The live version has better sound and audio quality than the music video, and showcases lead singer Patty Donahue better.

  421. Adrianacandle,

    Tron

    Contact is among my all-time favourite scifi, it could have been made for Jodie Foster, one of my all-time favourite actresses (can you still say actress?)

    If we’re naming sci-fi movies I have to mention Valerian and the city of a thousand planets. Despite its flaws and Clive Owen etc it’s sheer exuberance does it for me as well as GOT-like plot intricacy. And the effects. A classic OTT Luc Besson flik.

  422. Dire guineapig:
    Adrianacandle,

    Tron

    Contact is among my all-time favourite scifi, it could have been made for Jodie Foster, one of my all-time favourite actresses (can you still say actress?)

    If we’re naming sci-fi movies I have to mention Valerian and the city of a thousand planets. Despite its flaws and Clive Owen etc it’s sheer exuberance does it for me as well as GOT-like plot intricacy. And the effects. A classic OTT Luc Besson flik.

    I agree. Jodie Foster’s performance connected with me. I enjoyed Valerian (yes, I think I did take notice of the movie because of the misspelling of a certain kind of steel). But I did think the effects were great. I purchased it for my amazon prime library, so I may do a re-watch at some point soon.

  423. Dire guineapig: Adrianacandle,

    Tron

    Contact is among my all-time favourite scifi, it could have been made for Jodie Foster, one of my all-time favourite actresses (can you still say actress?)

    If we’re naming sci-fi movies I have to mention Valerian and the city of a thousand planets. Despite its flaws and Clive Owen etc it’s sheer exuberance does it for me as well as GOT-like plot intricacy. And the effects. A classic OTT Luc Besson flik.

    Thanks, Dire guineapig! (Also, I’ve always wanted to comment on how intriguing I think your usename is!)

    I plan to see Contact sometime this week! And thank-you for the other recommendations!

  424. Warrior Nun should have been Maisie!! Talk about ASNAWP
    I finished binging the 10 episode Warrior Nun original netflix series today. It kept my attention enough to watch all 10 episodes in two days, but boy would have this been the part for Maisie Williams! Think about seeing her as a super powered Ninja Nun fighting demons from hell along with her sister nuns who are all actual ninjas (who have a monastery in Spain).

    The premise of this show was totally bizarre. An angel gives up his halo and implants it in the back of the first Warrior Nun. A new secret order of Ninja Nuns is born as they fight back evil and send them back to hell. Not a bad premise! But the main character couldn’t pull off her role. She was just kind of bland most of the time. I kept thinking Maisie would have been absolutely perfect for this. There was a significant back story of the Ninja Warrior Nun. She lay helpless in an orphanage a paraplegic who has to put up with the whims of a psychopathic nun. She got a bad reputation while in the orphanage… .Anyway, I won’t go into everything, but Maisie could have completely hooked me on her backstory. And she would have been incredible as the Super Warrior Ninja Nun. No I’m not making this up!! So you probably have to watch just to see what I’m talking about, but some was pretty boring. It was a bit like Buffy the Vampire Slayer meets Arrow. But if Maisie was starring in it, it could have been a 10 year series!!

  425. Tron79,

    I’ve just started that series! I agree about the lead actress (Alba Baptista), I don’t know if she’s the strongest actress but she could get better over time (I sort of have similar reservations about Dafne Keen in HDM — I think she’s fine but not the strongest, most engaging actress. The movie, the Golden Compass which covered the first book of HDM, isn’t a great adaptation by any means but I thought the cast was great and its Lyra, Dakota Blue, felt more Lyra to me).

    Baptista sort of reminds me of Ellen Page looks-wise, which made me also wonder how Ellen Page would have handled the role in her Juno/Hard Candy days. But I’m biased — I do really like Ellen Page 🙂

    I think MW would have been great too!

  426. Tron79,

    The hard part of me to get past is that GRRM (and D&D) show a world that is broken, and that the people who value human kindness get their worlds destroyed. I’m back on the “mercy” theme again. I’m thinking of Dany’s world now. She sees the women being raped and she orders it to stop. What does her mercy get her? She loses her husband, the witch she saves turns against her, and Dany’s whole world is destroyed (for the moment). Humanity, kindness, and mercy doesn’t end well for anyone in Westeros. That is very depressing to me. I don’t want to live in Arya and Sandor’s world where the only way to survive is to be cold and to look out for yourself.

    D&D in The Bells episode show more horrible scenes of soldiers assaulting women. I don’t understand this “beast” that comes out. But GRRM and D&D want to show it to us. Thank G-d that Jon was there to stop that incident.

    I do think that Ramsey and Theon/Reek had a similar torture sequence where Ramsey forces Reek to watch Ramsey assault Sansa. I couldn’t watch it, but he made Theon watch. Just horrid, and it makes me sick thinking that this is our world and there are people out there that do these things. How do we get to a place where humanity wins out? What does GRRM say about that?

    I just finished a rewatch of GOT and there are times when the darkness seems unrelenting. GRRM pulls no punches (and nor do D&D) about human nature. One thinks also of the times when Cersei and Joffrey torment victims – they are helpless to resist or escape and it just goes on and on. Likewise with Ramsey.

    Goodness is punished a lot – think of the homesteader and his daughter entertaining Sandor and Arya. And evil not (immediately) punished. There is a long wait for justice and resolution.

    There are exceptions of course. Think of Sam Tarley – he is always good natured and honourable and seems to have a charmed life. Perhaps his talisman is humility – no claims to warrior status or leadership. He keeps a low profile and makes people underestimate him. As Al Pacino’s Satan in disguise advised Keanu Reeves in “The Devil’s Advocate” – “be the little guy, so they don’t see you coming”. But in a good way. One of the main themes of GOT is that hubris always has a bad ending. Especially desire for the iron throne was always fatal.

    I won’t philosophise any further. What my third watching of the whole GOT left me with is tremendous inspiration from the qualities of certain of the characters. Inspiration that I can apply to my own life.

    Sansa Stark – her astonishing endurace of abuse and humiliation, combined with shrewd survival wits. with intelligence, patience and dignity. And patient strategy. Which one of us does not need some of that Sansa Stark in our workplace?

    Jon Snow (Aegon Targaeryan): his sheer integrity. But smarter with lighter humour than that of Ned Stark. Doing what has to be done however hard, like killing Qorin halfhand. In the final episode Tyrion tells him what he has to do regarding Daenerys. He hates it but leaves the room and strides directly to the iron throne to do the deed – no delaying or prevarication. I need a dose of that.

    Brienne of Tarth: her dignity and integrity along with inner strength. The scene at the end where she weeps with bowed head as Jaime leaves Winterfell is so moving, there is no anger or rancour, just grief but with such dignity. If only that could be me.

  427. Adrianacandle:
    Tron79,

    I’ve just started that series! I agree about the lead actress (Alba Baptista), I don’t know if she’s the strongest actress but she could get better over time (I sort of have similar reservations about Dafne Keen in HDM — I think she’s fine but not the strongest, most engaging actress. The movie, the Golden Compass which covered the first book of HDM, isn’t a great adaptation by any means but I thought the cast was great and its Lyra, Dakota Blue, felt more Lyra to me).

    Baptista sort of reminds me of Ellen Page looks-wise, which made me also wonder how Ellen Page would have handled the role in her Juno/Hard Candy days. But I’m biased — I do really like Ellen Page 🙂

    I think MW would have been great too!

    Yeah, I stuck out all 10 episodes, but unfortunately Alba Baptista never really gets that much more engaging for me. She had an awesome back story, and I never felt that she was the rebellious orphan paraplegic who gives the Sisters the finger. Can you imagine Maisie doing that part with her attitude! Baptista never really showed much attitude. She was insecure and anxious to get the most out of the second life she was given, but I never felt that smart a*ss rebel thing that Maisie could have brought to the table.

    That being said, my favorite parts were her Nun Sister ninjas. I enjoyed Kristina Tonteri-Young as Beatrice (a real Ninja Nun!), and there were a couple other nuns that I enjoyed watching their scenes.

  428. Adrianacandle,

    Thanks, Dire guineapig! (Also, I’ve always wanted to comment on how intriguing I think your usename is!)

    We have guineapigs that our daughters dote on.
    Hard to think of them as dire though – thus the attempted irony.
    Changing their cage bedding can be dire if left too long.

  429. Dire guineapig:

    Sansa Stark – her astonishing endurace of abuse and humiliation, combined with shrewd survival wits. with intelligence, patience and dignity. And patient strategy. Which one of us does not need some of that Sansa Stark in our workplace?

    Brienne of Tarth: her dignity and integrity along with inner strength. The scene at the end where she weeps with bowed head as Jaime leaves Winterfell is so moving, there is no anger or rancour, just grief but with such dignity. If only that could be me.

    Thanks for your post. The are a few characters like Sam and Sansa who come out on top. I do agree that Sansa is a survivor and a strong character. However, Sansa gets ahead by learning how to play the game from Cersei and LF. She learns more about how to survive by being cold and calculating. She thinks through all of the twists and turns that could happen by telling Tyrion the truth about Jon. I would have rather seen Sansa stay loyal to Jon and have that loyalty rewarded. Instead, she plays the game by betraying Jon’s trust. Becoming Queen of the North with an independent North was her goal, and she reached it. The decision to tell Tyrion was the turning point. Was she going to go with her loyalty to her brother and keep her word, or was she going to win the game? I just watched Hamilton on Disney+ last night, and there is a song about taking your shot. Sansa took her shot and left Jon behind. So I guess I still feel sad about her decision and that she was rewarded with the throne for her betrayal. Cersei and LF would have been proud of her. Although, I absolutely loved her coronation gown, I can’t agree with the way Sansa won the throne at Jon’s expense. Arya certainly would have never chosen Sansa’s path of betrayal.

  430. Tron79: Yeah, I stuck out all 10 episodes, but unfortunately Alba Baptista never really gets that much more engaging for me. She had an awesome back story, and I never felt that she was the rebellious orphan paraplegic who gives the Sisters the finger. Can you imagine Maisie doing that part with her attitude! Baptista never really showed much attitude. She was insecure and anxious to get the most out of the second life she was given, but I never felt that smart a*ss rebel thing that Maisie could have brought to the table.

    That being said, my favorite parts were her Nun Sister ninjas. I enjoyed Kristina Tonteri-Young as Beatrice (a real Ninja Nun!), and there were a couple other nuns that I enjoyed watching their scenes.

    I totally agree (and yeah, MW would be the right age for this role! At the very least, it would have made the ‘ninja’ in ASNAWP literal ;D)

    I’m just on the second episode now! I got sidetracked because I noticed Netflix added quite a few Miyazki films to its library 🙂 🙂 🙂 <3

  431. Dire guineapig: We have guineapigs that our daughters dote on.
    Hard to think of them as dire though – thus the attempted irony.
    Changing their cage bedding can be dire if left too long.

    That’s the perfect username!

    I had wondered if you were trying to draw a connection to direwolves but I like this better!

    LOL, yes! Cage bedding can get really dire if left for too long!

    I know what you mean! I used to have hamsters as a kid — they’re probably not as much work as guinea pigs but the habitats required frequent cleaning or else the hamsters would succumb to diseases like wet tail. One of my hamsters experienced a rectal prolapse, despite my cleaning efforts, and it still haunts me (his large intestine had come out through his anus). The vet warned my 10-year old sister and I that an operation on a 25 g prey animal would likely be unsuccessful while a 10 pound cat would have far better odds but we still tried. Hammy died and I swore, “Never again,” to hamsters after that 🙁 And then my next pet was a 10-pound cat — who nearly died in her first year because she had picked up on some pesticide residue used in my Toronto apartment to keep the cockroaches at bay (they definitely lived in the concrete walls — a great motivator to clean up any food remains and not leave dishes out overnight). But unlike Hammy, she survived after a few blood transfusions! 🙂

  432. A YouTube video about female armour – or perhaps I should say armour worn by females. It doesn’t mention GoT (which is fantasy even if somewhat loosely based on history) but it seems that the fan art of Asha (book name for Theon’s sister) wearing the ringmail bikinis is inaccurate. Sorry lads. https://youtu.be/Et7l3Fjsjao

  433. Adrianacandle,

    Thanks for sharing about your pets. Their mortality is always distressing especially for children. I once worked in a Vet college and the topic of coffee room conversations was usually all the various and exotic ailments that their pets were suffering. Of course as vets, having their own animal put down would be an unacceptable admission of defeat to no medical intervention was deemed too extravagant, even to the extent of full blood dialysis for cats with renal failure – common among very old felines.

    I haven’t had a hamster but we have kept rats and mice. Once we had a mouse that got into difficulties giving birth. We took her to the vet and it cost more than 100 UK pounds to save her life (the litter were sadly lost). For an animal costing 1-2 pounds. The things we do for love!

  434. Ten Bears: No need for me to “watch it again.” Sansa-Sandor in S8e4 is one of those scenes where our perceptions were and will always be completely different.

    I’m sorry to read that. I find my perceptions change every time I watch a scene from the show, because there’s always something I didn’t see the first few times I watched it. So, thanks for the link to the scene; I always like watching those “high-thread count” scenes again. The more times I watch that one, the better I like that coda to the Sandor-Sansa story.

  435. Dire guineapig,

    ”…Once we had a mouse that got into difficulties giving birth. We took her to the vet and it cost more than 100 UK pounds to save her life (the litter were sadly lost). For an animal costing 1-2 pounds. The things we do for love!”

    I once spent $3,000.00 for surgery to try to save the life of my $14.99 parakeet (budgerigar). I had private nurses lined up for round-the-clock post-surgical care. I would have sold everything I owed and lived in a cardboard box under a highway overpass if it meant he would’ve lived. I was f*cking shattered when he didn’t make it.

    That was 22 years ago. I still haven’t really gotten over it. 😢

    The things we do for love, indeed. 💔

    🌈🌉 🦜

  436. Ten Bears,

    Post-script:
    The veterinary surgeon had said going in that my bird’s chances were 50%-50% at best, and even if he survived the operation he’d face a long recovery. In a compassionate manner, the doctor offered me the option of euthanizing my bird, suggesting gently that I consider whether I really wanted to charge $3,000 on my credit cards for a risky, delicate operation (and implicitly hinting that “letting him go,” and then spending less than 1% of that $3,000 amount to buy a new baby bird when I was ready, might be another option…)

    I also learned that the trade-offs for the inbreeding that produces vivid coloration (like
    my bird’s gorgeous iridescent purple-blue plumage and violet-indigo tail feather), are reduced life spans and susceptibility to health problems linked to genetic infirmities not otherwise present in wild birds with normal green colors. That’s the price I had unwittingly paid many years ago when I had chosen the prettiest, friendliest baby bird in the aviary to take home with me. (I like to say he chose me: He climbed onto the cage bars closest to me, looked me straight in the eyes, and telepathically instructed: “Take me home with you!”)

    Apparently, selective breeding also results in decreased longevity problems, cancers, and congenital illnesses that often afflict “miniature” dogs and other pets. I’m not sure if feline leukemia falls into this category. (Renal failure in cats, mentioned by dire guineapig, may be a consequence of old age?)

    ⚠️ Hey, sorry everyone for unloading like this in a GoT fan site comment section. The discussion about pet guinea pigs, cats, hamsters, and mice kind of triggered my memories – and got me silently reciting to myself the tears-inducing “Rainbow Bridge” poem printed on the condolence card the veterinary surgeon sent me many years ago.

    🦜🌈🌉

  437. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    Well, my dear Tensor, I had rewatched that S8e4 Sansa-Sandor scene a few times, which only reinforced my distaste for it. I’m glad you came to the opposite conclusion, and certainly won’t say your impressions were “wrong.”

    I did dedicate (with a disclaimer) a “Musical Interlude” to Sansa based on the empowerment theme you felt was conveyed in her dialogue. Plus, I liked the Christina Aguilera song, “Fighter,” that I linked.

    Anyway, no need to debate this any further.
    At this point, I’d just as soon we… let it go.

  438. Ten Bears: Ten Bears,

    Post-script:
    The veterinary surgeon had said going in that my bird’s chances were 50%-50% at best, and even if he survived the operation he’d face a long recovery. In a compassionate manner, the doctor offered me the option of euthanizing my bird, suggesting gently that I consider whether I really wanted to charge $3,000 on my credit cards for a risky, delicate operation (and implicitly hinting that “letting him go,” and then spending less than 1% of that $3,000 amount to buy a new baby bird when I was ready, might be another option…)

    I also learned that the trade-offs for the inbreeding that produces vivid coloration (like
    my bird’s gorgeous iridescent purple-blue plumage and violet-indigo tail feather), are reduced life spans and susceptibility to health problems linked to genetic infirmities not otherwise present in wild birds with normal green colors. That’s the price I had unwittingly paid many years ago when I had chosen the prettiest, friendliest baby bird in the aviary to take home with me. (I like to say he chose me: He climbed onto the cage bars closest to me, looked me straight in the eyes, and telepathically instructed: “Take me home with you!”)

    Apparently, selective breeding also results in decreased longevity problems, cancers, and congenital illnesses that often afflict “miniature” dogs and other pets. I’m not sure if feline leukemia falls into this category. (Renal failure in cats, mentioned by dire guineapig, may be a consequence of old age?)

    ⚠️ Hey, sorry everyone for unloading like this in a GoT fan site comment section. The discussion about pet guinea pigs, cats, hamsters, and mice kind of triggered my memories – and got me silently reciting to myself the tears-inducing “Rainbow Bridge” poem printed on the condolence card the veterinary surgeon sent me many years ago.

    🦜🌈🌉

    Thanks for sharing this! And I would have made the very same decision. When I was working as a TA, a friend I had made there told me that, “You can always make more money.” If I had any way to get the funds needed to pay for these operations/blood transfusions/treatment, etc. — even if it was in the form of a loan — I’d regret not trying far more than I would about taking the financial hit.

    Animals, like people, are irreplaceable so of course you tried 🙁 You can eventually save back that $3,000 but you’ll never get the chance again to save your bird.

    Hammy was just a hamster to most and I did not get along with my sisters but when Hammy died, I remembered my sister and I hugging each other and crying in the corner of her bedroom when our mum told us. We were pretty shattered, which was a big part of my reason never to get another hamster again.

    When my cat (who was then a kitten) was unwittingly poisoned by pesticide residue in my apartment, the vets didn’t know what was wrong with her. They thought she had leukemia, ran the whole gamut of tests on her, but nothing. And she received a prognosis of a 10% survival rate. I was stunned and called one of aunts who was temporarily in Toronto at the time (another aunt, not the Kelsey and her Dinosaurs aunt!), who (also gently) told me to let my cat go. That it wasn’t worth the costs to save her (however, when her dog got cancer, she did spend everything and more to try and save her so I think she understood then).

    As her only shot, the vets told me my cat needed a blood transfusion immediately or she’d be dead in 10 hours since she had become severely anemic (they opened her mouth and showed me that it had become bone-white). And the cost alone of the first blood transfusion was $1,500 and they were fairly certain it wouldn’t take. I was going to school at the time and on a scholarship but I had about $3,000 in my savings meant for supplies, school books, etc. so I ended up using all of that to pay for these treatments.

    In my case, I was lucky enough that it worked. But even if it didn’t, no regrets.

    (Btw, that is helpful information about birds!)

  439. Dire guineapig: I haven’t had a hamster but we have kept rats and mice. Once we had a mouse that got into difficulties giving birth. We took her to the vet and it cost more than 100 UK pounds to save her life (the litter were sadly lost). For an animal costing 1-2 pounds. The things we do for love!

    Yes! Hammy’s operation was $130 (while Lottie’s — the cat — her first blood transfusion was $1,500). Did your mouse make it?

    Also, thank you for telling me about the conversations at the vet college in the coffee room and how some professionals feel when they lose their own pets. I remember the vet working on Lottie’s case, he was particularly determined to find out what was wrong and provided me with free medical treatment due to the cost of the blood transfusions. Their receptionist drove me downtown to the emergency vet hospital because she would not have survived a bus trip (and I had no car). All that kindness saved my cat’s life, I was really lucky there.

  440. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ”…So, thanks for the link to the scene; I always like watching those “high-thread count” scenes again. The more times I watch that one, the better I like that coda to the Sandor-Sansa story.”

    Have you checked out the two S4e8 Sansa-LF scenes I linked in yesterday’s Musical Dedication? Those are among my favorite Sansa scenes, and in my mind nicely set up Sansa’s final confrontation with LF in S7e7, snookering that pompous, lecherous d-bag.

    That episode featured what I thought was Sophie Turner’s best acting on the show, i.e. in LF’s trial by ambush, and in Sansa’s lovely reconciliation scene with Arya on the WF battlements:

    S: “…You’re the strongest person I know.”
    A: “I believe that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.”
    S: “Well, don’t get used to it. You’re still very strange and annoying.”

    Empathy + Snark = Top-Notch Sansa Stark.

    🕊

  441. Adrianacandle,

    I never regretted the $3,000 credit card charge even though my bird didn’t survive the operation. (I was told upfront that anesthetizing little birds is inherently risky because of the dangers in slowing their respiratory systems.). I just didn’t want him to suffer – either from the discomfort that first alerted me something was wrong; the progressive worsening of his condition if left untreated; or from post-operative pain during recovery from surgery. Cost was never a factor.

    I only would’ve regretted not trying to save him, or subjecting him to unnecessary suffering. Foregoing the surgery and taking him home to live out however many more days or weeks he would’ve lasted, would have been unconscionable.

    I had never realized birds have emotions, personalities, and souls. Nor did I know that they will bond with humans, adopt human behaviors, and consider humans as part of their “flock.” I also came to understand how much they like playing games, and especially, how much they enjoy flying just for the sake of flying around. (Who wouldn’t?)) For that reason I could never consider clipping a bird’s wings, though some pet owners recommend it to prevent accidental escapes, e.g., through open windows and doors, and for the bird’s safety, e.g., to avoid crashing into mirrors and windows. (Though that’s a bogus reason: if left to explore their environment, they understand that windows and mirrors are boundaries, and don’t try to fly into them or through them.)

    Finally [segue to GoT], Sandor’s remark after the riot in KL about putting “the little bird back in her cage” reminded me that I think it’s cruel for pet owners to confine birds to cages. I’m convinced it causes them severe psychological damage. They shriek and squawk, bite people, and sometimes pluck out their own feathers. (Who could blame them? What a boring existence....) There’s nothing so delightful as a happy, chirping bird flying around the house…

    – End Unintended* Pet Bird Discussion –

    * I had intended to type out the “Rainbow Bridge”
    poem I had alluded to in my prior reply. 🌈🌉

  442. Adrianacandle,

    FYI: Here’s the “Rainbow Bridge” poem from the vet’s condolence card. As far as I could tell from the last time I checked, nobody knows for sure who wrote it. I’m going to cover it with spoiler-coding for anyone who may be irked by our pet discussion thread detour…

    RAINBOW BRIDGE

    Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

    When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine and our friends are warm and comfortable.

    All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing: they each miss someone very special, someone who was left behind.

    They run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; his eager body begins to quiver. Suddenly, he breaks from the group, flying over the green grass, faster and faster. You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into those trusting eyes, so long gone from your life, but never absent from your heart.

    Then You Cross Rainbow Bridge Together…

  443. Ten Bears,

    I only would’ve regretted not trying to save him, or subjecting him to unnecessary suffering. Foregoing the surgery and taking him home to live out however many more days or weeks he would’ve lasted, would have been unconscionable.

    Yup, exactly how I feel.

    I had never realized birds have emotions, personalities, and souls. Nor did I know that they will bond with humans, adopt human behaviors, and consider humans as part of their “flock.” I also came to understand how much they like playing games, and especially, how much they enjoy flying just for the sake of flying around. (Who wouldn’t?)) For that reason I could never consider clipping a bird’s wings, though some pet owners recommend it to prevent accidental escapes, e.g., through open windows and doors, and for the bird’s safety, e.g., to avoid crashing into mirrors and windows. (Though that’s a bogus reason: if left to explore their environment, they understand that windows and mirrors are boundaries, and don’t try to fly into them or through them.)

    I had no idea about any of this with birds. Thanks for this information! Before I got a cat, I didn’t know how emotionally needy they could be either or that they can suffer separation anxiety like dogs can. It sounds like it can happen to birds as well given their capability for forming emotional bonds with humans.

    And thank-you for the beautiful Rainbow Bridge poem <3 <3 <3

  444. Ten Bears,

    I’m glad you came to the opposite conclusion, and certainly won’t say your impressions were “wrong.”

    I never wrote — nor meant to imply — your impressions were ‘wrong,’ just that I did not see or hear evidence for all of them in the scene. You have exactly the same right to your opinion as I have to mine.

    Just as Arya’s opinion of Sandor changed over the time she knew him, my opinion of the show — and of many an element within it — has changed with multiple viewings. I had hoped yours could as well, but about this scene at least, you have declared your opinion fixed, and I shall not make any attempt to alter that. Thank you again for your link to the clip.

    (On that note: you might want to let a certain other clip ‘go’…)

  445. Adrianacandle,

    Somebody mentioned that poem to me when I lost my previous pet cat (the one that died last October). I think I mentioned before that I got a ‘new’ 10 year old rescue cat in February.

    Off-topic but a question about slang crossing the Atlantic. In the USA and Canada does the word ‘divvy’ ever occur for someone who is a bit of a twit. There is a really annoying advert I get sometimes if I watch YouTube videos about software for designing a website. An actress (presumably) says “Designing a website is kind of like painting a masterpiece only it’s nothing like painting a masterpiece” – absolute rubbish and it really rubs me up the wrong way. The name of the software is ‘Divi’. For all I know it could be a good piece of software but the ad makes me think of “D______ by name, d—– by nature”.

    Getting back to the subject of this thread I haven’t ready GRRM’s ‘Not a Blog’ for quite some time. I do wonder if he has his heart in continuing ASOIAF any longer.

  446. Dame of Mercia,

    Somebody mentioned that poem to me when I lost my previous pet cat (the one that died last October). I think I mentioned before that I got a ‘new’ 10 year old rescue cat in February.

    I remember you sharing the news of the death of your cat. I hope you are doing okay. I think Rainbow Bridge is the best-known consolation poem for the loss of a pet.

    How is it going with the cat you adopted in February?

    Off-topic but a question about slang crossing the Atlantic. In the USA and Canada does the word ‘divvy’ ever occur for someone who is a bit of a twit. There is a really annoying advert I get sometimes if I watch YouTube videos about software for designing a website. An actress (presumably) says “Designing a website is kind of like painting a masterpiece only it’s nothing like painting a masterpiece” – absolute rubbish and it really rubs me up the wrong way. The name of the software is ‘Divi’. For all I know it could be a good piece of software but the ad makes me think of “D______ by name, d—– by nature”.

    I know the software you mean and the ads for it are very annoying!

    I’ve never heard of ‘divvy’ being used to call somebody when they’re being a twit, I’ve only heard it being used to describing sharing or dividing something up. Like, ‘we divvied up the pie’.

    But perhaps the usage of the term that way (another word for twit) hasn’t quite reached me yet.

  447. Dame of Mercia,

    ”Off-topic but a question about slang crossing the Atlantic. In the USA and Canada does the word ‘divvy’ ever occur for someone who is a bit of a twit.”

    Interesting. In the U.S., I‘ve never heard “divvy” used to mean a twit. I’m only aware of it being used as an informal short form of divide, e.g., restaurant servers and kitchen workers might “divvy up” all customer tips at the end of the night.

    Along the same lines, I’ve often wondered why “bollocks” never successfully crossed the pond and caught on in the U.S. It seems like a common go-to pseudo-expletive in the UK. (What does “bollocks” actually mean anyway? Rubbish? Bullsh*t? I guess I should investigate this when I have some time…)

  448. Adrianacandle,

    Ah! I see we both replied about “divvy” the same way: You in 🇨🇦 and me in 🇺🇸.

    Perhaps we should consider using “divvy” to mean “somewhat of a twit” as Dame of Mercia defines it in 🇬🇧. Personally, I’ve always wanted to import “f*ckwit” from overseas. I have not heard it used here except by British and Australian visitors.

  449. Adrianacandle: Yay! Looking forward to it!

    Here’s a preview. (From the Prelude to the upcoming Musical Interlude – Sandor Clegane Tribute):

    S4e10 Ep Commentary
    Narrated by Rory McCann (Sandor “The Hound” Clegane), Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of F*cking Tarth) and Director Alex Graves

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gDqggrInk0

    at 4:11 – 4:20: When the Hound says “Aye, that’s what I’m doing” [watching over Arya], director Alex Graves explains:

    “You can see right there that he loves her. And he’s not doing it for the money.”

    🐶 💕👸🏻

  450. Ten Bears,

    Perhaps we should consider using “divvy” to mean “somewhat of a twit” as Dame of Mercia defines it in 🇬🇧. Personally, I’ve always wanted to import “f*ckwit” from overseas. I have not heard it used here except by British and Australian visitors.

    Yes! 🙂 I’d be up for adding this word as another word for twit to our board slang!

    I’ve always liked “f*ckwit” too — sometimes, it feels like the best word appropriate for a situation. I know I’ve used it in my head more than once — that and “f*cktard”.

    Also, congratulations #500! And thanks for the preview!

  451. Ten Bears,

    “Along the same lines, I’ve often wondered why “bollocks” never successfully crossed the pond and caught on in the U.S. It seems like a common go-to pseudo-expletive in the UK. (What does “bollocks” actually mean anyway? Rubbish? Bullsh*t? I guess I should investigate this when I have some time…)” Literally it means testicles. I don’t know how it came to have the slang meaning ‘rubbish’. In this traditional song at about 1:05 “frolics” is rhymed (??) with “jacket” but the listener of course substitutes another word for ‘jacket’ https://youtu.be/FSscla4VFR0 I had old-fashioned parents and f*ck was a word that ‘nice people’ were not supposed to use.

    TB and Adriana, thanks for your replies. My cat is jogging along okay. She has a heart murmur but is lively enough and eats healthily. The other day she’d jumped up (outside obviously) to where I had put some bird seed so I thought out of harm’s way.

  452. I’m too late to edit the comment where I referred initially to ‘divvy’ but of course I meant to say it was a while since I’d ‘read’ Not A Blog – not ‘ready’. Could have been autocorrect which does some weird and decidedly not wonderful things sometimes.

    Thinking about adverts, when a person downvotes an advert (on YouTube) YouTube say they’ll try not to show the advert again but they do, they show them again and again and again. I’d download AdBlock but as I’m on a laptop and AdBlock can be memory hungry I’ve decided to suffer the ads for the time being at least. When YouTube ask for feedback about how I rate their advertisements, up to the present I have given them the lowest rating possible. I have been truthful. I realise YouTube needs to have revenue to function and that is one of the reasons it runs the ads but thus far my experience with the ads has not been positive though if that changed I might be less negative when asked for feedback.

  453. Dame of Mercia,

    I had old-fashioned parents and f*ck was a word that ‘nice people’ were not supposed to use.

    ‘F*ck’ was a word that my parents tried to stop me from using too and I really try not to on a regular basis. There are some situations where only ‘f*ck’ (and its variations) can properly express what I feel and if I use it all the time, it loses that punch.

    TB and Adriana, thanks for your replies. My cat is jogging along okay. She has a heart murmur but is lively enough and eats healthily. The other day she’d jumped up (outside obviously) to where I had put some bird seed so I thought out of harm’s way.

    Good, I’m glad to hear that!!

    Dire guineapig,

    Yes she did, and lived for another year.

    And I’m glad to hear this! 🙂 I hope it was a good year for her!

  454. Ok folks, I’ve been out for a few days!
    I see this discussion is holding on well. I am sorry I didn’t take part in it. I was very suddenly and very horribly ill so much so that it is the first day I can look to a screen. I’ve had a set of medical tests including corona test (still waiting for the result, but I’m sure it’s negative).
    I have a lot of catching up to do it seems.

  455. Efi: I see this discussion is holding on well. I am sorry I didn’t take part in it. I was very suddenly and very horribly ill so much so that it is the first day I can look to a screen. I’ve had a set of medical tests including corona test (still waiting for the result, but I’m sure it’s negative).

    I’m sorry to hear you are ill 🙁 It is always a good idea to get tested for covid (I’ve been tested twice — both negative! Still, it’s definitely good to make sure in case something is up and you can receive treatment/take measures right away because you never know without those results).

    Discussion has become mostly about pets, which is always nice 🙂

  456. Adrianacandle,

    Thanks! As I understand taking the test was standard procedure for my situation.
    Unfortunately I never had a pet. I have fear of the responsibility that goes with it, I think. I always flirt with the idea though because I love them and I think it’s helping with stress. I like birds and cats the most.
    My parents both thought that having a pet was costly and not a big deal. That’s because having grown up themselves in villages they had a different appreciation for animals. They used them for food (sheep, pigs and chicken, even pigeons), for guarding the flocks (dogs) or chasing rats and snakes (cats). They took the milk from the cows and used horses and donkeys for carrying things. So they believed that city life is not meant for keeping animals close -why would you want to keep an animal if the idea was to escape from the obligations created by having animals in the village? (it involves lots of dirt and early-morning risings) 😂
    So we never had a pet as I was growing up but that didn’t stop my father from having dogs with his second wife. Now he’s on his third wife but he has no dog because they divide their time between (her) houses.

  457. Efi,

    Unfortunately I never had a pet. I have fear of the responsibility that goes with it, I think. I always flirt with the idea though because I love them and I think it’s helping with stress. I like birds and cats the most.

    Before I got a cat, I was very afraid of this too. And you never know what the pet will be like — what quirks, issues, habits they’ll have. But I found taking care of a cat easier than a hamster 🙂 With a hamster, I was always so afraid of not cleaning the cage well enough and they’d get wet tail or another disease from the bacteria. But with a cat, a cat is pretty self-cleaning and if you don’t clean their litterbox enough, they’ll punish you for it so they’re always there to remind you 🙂 (And with food and water too! They’ll remind you…)

    My parents both thought that having a pet was costly and not a big deal. That’s because having grown up themselves in villages they had a different appreciation for animals. They used them for food (sheep, pigs and chicken, even pigeons), for guarding the flocks (dogs) or chasing rats and snakes (cats). They took the milk from the cows and used horses and donkeys for carrying things. So they believed that city life is not meant for keeping animals close -why would you want to keep an animal if the idea was to escape from the obligations created by having animals in the village? (it involves lots of dirt and early-morning risings) 😂

    Yes. This is how my great great grandpa felt and I’ve seen (some) farmers express this view too around here 🙂 Other farmers understand an animal can be nice for companionship but I’ve seen the above view expressed. My cat would be of no use anywhere 🙁 I can’t imagine any wild Lotties flocking the prairies, forests, or catching anything. She’s so inept T_T

    So we never had a pet as I was growing up but that didn’t stop my father from having dogs with his second wife. Now he’s on his third wife but he has no dog because they divide their time between (her) houses.

    Ah, my dad loves dogs too! My dad’s first wife is currently his third wife (my mum) and it’s weird. She won’t let him have more than one dog though! Just like marriage #1!

  458. Adrianacandle,

    It’s nice though that your parents got together again. Now you don’t have to worry that much about either of them because they have each other.
    I remember whenever my father had violent fights with his second wife (he never fought like that with mom), there was always some weird talk about my parents getting back together. But then they both expressed opposite views and it was established then (for me at least) that they loathe each other. I hadn’t seen them change at all since they divorced, so it was pointless talk. At some point I even remember being angry at them for maintaining such thoughts and talking about it with me. Why do that if you’re not honest? Their feelings didn’t change, so it felt like pointlessly (and rather hypocritically) trying to get my attention.

  459. Efi,

    I remember whenever my father had violent fights with his second wife (he never fought like that with mom), there was always some weird talk about my parents getting back together. But then they both expressed opposite views and it was established then (for me at least) that they loathe each other. I hadn’t seen them change at all since they divorced, so it was pointless talk. At some point I even remember being angry at them for maintaining such thoughts and talking about it with me. Why do that if you’re not honest? Their feelings didn’t change, so it felt like pointlessly (and rather hypocritically) trying to get my attention.

    That sounds very very difficult and like they were maybe putting you in the middle? That’s not fair to you 🙁 I’m sorry you had to go through that. Experiencing your parents divorcing is enough without all that coming into it. That sounds like a very complex situation with a lot of stuff going on.

    It’s nice though that your parents got together again. Now you don’t have to worry that much about either of them because they have each other.

    Yeah, with my parents, that’s the main saving grace — that they have each other and they aren’t alone. It still feels weird because they’ve been divorced for most of my life and I barely remember them together the first time around. From that time, during their first marriage, I remember them having a very nice professional and respectful relationship as relationships between parents should be 😉 But then a bunch of stuff happened and yeah, divorce. But now, they change around each other and become a two-person hive mind: what one thinks, the other does too, and it’s maddening. You can’t get into an argument with one without the other chiming in and them forming one unit to fight you. It’s like they bought an upgrade in a video game. UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH. Divorce is something to be cherished! Honour it!

  460. Dire guineapig,

    “Yes, genocide is naughty, slap wrist or stab heart, whatever. But (sorry for saying this) MY GOD IT WAS SATISFYING. From the perspective of cinematography and storytelling at least. Just saying … ok I’m a bad person.”

    It was a medieval world after all. These things were meant to happen in medieval times with the honor codes they had back then.
    It doesn’t mean it was supposed to be evaluated on those terms. The logic “see what you made me do” is the reasoning of a killer/abuser, since there is always something that triggers it. The burning of KL was designed to be punch in the stomach of the audience (and it will be for the readers too, but an image is a thousand words), more like in the logic of “see how far punishment can go” (and be careful what you wish for).

    While 8.5 was a satisfying watch and incredibly well made (credits to all the makers) it does leave one with a bad taste in the mouth, and that’s because was also made to do that.

  461. Efi:
    Dire guineapig,

    “Yes, genocide is naughty, slap wrist or stab heart, whatever. But (sorry for saying this) MY GOD IT WAS SATISFYING. From the perspective of cinematography and storytelling at least. Just saying … ok I’m a bad person.”

    It was a medieval world after all. These things were meant to happen in medieval times with the honor codes they had back then.
    It doesn’t mean it was supposed to be evaluated on those terms. The logic “see what you made me do” is the reasoning of a killer/abuser, since there is always something that triggers it. The burning of KL was designed to be punch in the stomach of the audience (and it will be for the readers too, but an image is a thousand words), more like in the logic of “see how far punishment can go” (and be careful what you wish for).

    While 8.5 was a satisfying watch and incredibly well made (credits to all the makers) it does leave one with a bad taste in the mouth, and that’s because was also made to do that.

    These were two of the best comments I’ve yet read on 8.5, and I’ve read a lot of them. Dire G. described exactly the rush of conflicting emotions during Dany’s Inferno, and Efi showed why the episode felt so uneasy, even to a viewer (like myself) who thought Dany’s downfall was a satisfying end to the story.

    I would add 8.5 was a “Red Wedding” on a much larger scale. You had military forces who were allied until one suddenly turned on the other, and you had a large number of victims, most of whom simply had the misfortune to be present at the wrong moment. Both atrocities were meticulously set up beforehand, so each one felt shocking at the occurrence, but obvious in retrospect.

    The burning of KL was designed to be punch in the stomach of the audience (and it will be for the readers too, but an image is a thousand words),

    GRRM has no need to stop at KL. As we know, he wrote A Song of Ice and Fire as books, not screenplays, because he wanted to be free of any limits imposed by production costs. He can have a three-way dance with dragons (to coin a phrase) where Dany, Jon, and that Greyjoy dude with the horn nuke it out over the length and breadth of Westeros, laying waste to most of the population centers and grain stores (so that anyone who escaped incineration will likely starve to death). (I just made that ending up; who knows how/when/if GRRM intends to end this thing.)

  462. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: GRRM has no need to stop at KL. As we know, he wrote A Song of Ice and Fire as books, not screenplays, because he wanted to be free of any limits imposed by production costs. He can have a three-way dance with dragons (to coin a phrase) where Dany, Jon, and that Greyjoy dude with the horn nuke it out over the length and breadth of Westeros, laying waste to most of the population centers and grain stores (so that anyone who escaped incineration will likely starve to death). (I just made that ending up; who knows how/when/if GRRM intends to end this thing.)

    I know I’ve expressed my hope that if the burning of KL occurs in the books (and I think, it will), it comes with a bit more struggle on Dany’s part — but while I can see why Euron wouldn’t care if the population of Westeros goes to hell, I’m not sure why Jon would participate in the aerial destruction of Westeros? Or is this more expressing how, without the confines of TV, GRRM’s horizons are limitless with what he can do?

    In that, I agree. And I think whatever part magic has to play is less limited in this regard too.

  463. I tried to add to my forum thread about women who sometimes dressed as men. However I got the message about needing to log in four times when I tried to post when I was already logged in so looks like the forums are playing up again. I may have mentioned this lady before – but here is a link to an article about Julie d’Aubigny/Maupin (from around the time of King Louis XIV of Francce ) who was a duellist and opera singer to mention but two of her accomplishments. I’m providing a link to an article on the website partylike1660.com because I don’t think it would be right for me to take the writer’s content when she did all the work. https://partylike1660.com/julie-daubigny-mademoiselle-maupin/

  464. There was something on the UK news yesterday about a crane collapsing on a house in Bow, east London. I was in a flat share in Bow in the early 2000s for a couple of years and worked in that area for longer. However it’s a number of years ago and I’ve lost touch with people so I don’t know anyone I can ask to find out if people I knew are okay. It’s a horrible thing to happen whether I know anyone involved or not, of course. It does seem to have been more in the Bromley-by-Bow area whereas I was in the northern part of Bow.

    Thinking of our pets I was hand sewing (because it was quite thick fabric) a casing on to a skirt I’m making. I left it aside when I joined a Zoom meeting this morning and when I went back to it the cat had decided I’d left it for her to sleep on. I should have put the skirt on a clothes hanger

  465. Dame of Mercia,

    There was something on the UK news yesterday about a crane collapsing on a house in Bow, east London. I was in a flat share in Bow in the early 2000s for a couple of years and worked in that area for longer. However it’s a number of years ago and I’ve lost touch with people so I don’t know anyone I can ask to find out if people I knew are okay. It’s a horrible thing to happen whether I know anyone involved or not, of course. It does seem to have been more in the Bromley-by-Bow area whereas I was in the northern part of Bow.

    Like a construction crane? That is really horrible… Did it crush the house?

    Thinking of our pets I was hand sewing (because it was quite thick fabric) a casing on to a skirt I’m making. I left it aside when I joined a Zoom meeting this morning and when I went back to it the cat had decided I’d left it for her to sleep on. I should have put the skirt on a clothes hanger

    Cats are really great at finding the stuff you’re working on and deciding it’s for them to get their fur all over it when they make it their new bed. They don’t go for any of the other myriad of materials lying about, like the $100 bed that was purchased for them to sleep in, they go for the item you’re working on now.

  466. “There is writing and there is trying to write,” — J. Michael Straczynski

    Maybe Martin should pay attention to that and this…

  467. Adrianacandle,

    I’m not sure why Jon would participate in the aerial destruction of Westeros?

    For the same reason Jon knifed Dany in the TV adaptation: he knew he had no choice, and he stopped her however he could. If she escapes KL, and starts rampaging across Westeros on Drogon, he’d have little choice but to hop aboard Rhaegal and pursue her.

    Or is this more expressing how, without the confines of TV, GRRM’s horizons are limitless with what he can do?

    Yes. He can spend hundreds of pages setting up a scenario with a three-way dragon battle if he wants. D&D, who had the myriad concerns of big-budget TV production, had to take a faster and simpler way to the ending.

    (Also, if he had done his job and delivered books to them, we might now be re-hashing S9, and eagerly anticipating the final season.)

  468. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    For the same reason Jon knifed Dany in the TV adaptation: he knew he had no choice, and he stopped her however he could. If she escapes KL, and starts rampaging across Westeros on Drogon, he’d have little choice but to hop aboard Rhaegal and pursue her.

    In that case, Jon on a fire-breathing Rhaegal, killing scores of people and resources, would negate his efforts to try and protect the people (since he’d be killing them) in his story — to kill one. It’d be the opposite of what went down in the TV series and would this meet the theme of ‘human heart in conflict with itself’ or just be enemy vs. enemy?

    In contrast, when Jon killed Dany in the TV series, he saved countless lives by taking the life of one, somebody he loved, thus the assassination and activating Human Heart in Conflict with Itself.

    This is the only reason why I think Arya couldn’t be the one to do it (as much as I’d prefer that on a personal level because Arya killing Dany would spare both Jon and Dany the pain of Jon doing it) because to Arya, Dany would be another kill. To Jon, it’d be the source of great pain. Killing somebody he loved to save others (who he also loves) and to protect the world from Dany’s destruction. It wouldn’t be just about throwing away his honor or reputation (Jon’s been willing to sacrifice that for a while now — “I am the sword that guards the realms of men and in the end, that must be more than one man’s honor”), it’d be something more personal and terrible.

  469. In that case, Jon on a fire-breathing Rhaegal, killing scores of people and resources, would negate his efforts to try and protect the people (since he’d be killing them) in his story — to kill one. It’d be the opposite of what went down in the TV series and would this meet the theme of ‘human heart in conflict with itself’ or just be enemy vs. enemy?

    I was thinking anyone killed in their fight would be collateral damage, not intentional kills by Jon & Rhaegal. The dilemma for Jon would be the same as in the show — kill Dany to save many innocents — but now compounded with “destroy half of Westeros to save the other half,” and then have Greyjoy arrive and cut that surviving half down to very few. By the end, Westeros would have no more ice zombies or fire-breathing dragons, just as in the show.

  470. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    I was thinking anyone killed in their fight would be collateral damage, not intentional kills by Jon & Rhaegal. The dilemma for Jon would be the same as in the show — kill Dany to save many innocents — but now compounded with “destroy half of Westeros to save the other half,” and then have Greyjoy arrive and cut that surviving half down to very few. By the end, Westeros would have no more ice zombies or fire-breathing dragons, just as in the show.

    Okay but still (and especially if he’s having to fight Euron too, who is way scarier in the books), fighting two other dragons and their riders would seem like a fight Jon couldn’t win and he’d be the one dying, particularly with his limited dragon experience while taking out a ton of people with him. It’d also make killing Dany quite a bit less personal and that was something I felt made Jon’s choice even harder because it was by his own hand in an assassination rather than in battle (which is what Jon resigned himself to with Ygritte, killing her in battle, as much as he hated it).

    If GRRM spent so much time setting this up, wouldn’t he think of a better way to take down a dragon from the sky without having Jon go into a pretty hopeless suicide mission? This is what the show tried to do with the scorpions. The above scenario is interesting to consider but I feel like it’d be running into the same sort of criticism Battle of the Bastards faced with Jon charging head-on alone into an opposing army (for which Jon was called the Dumbest Ever and dubbed as being given the best plot armor for surviving).

    I don’t know how well Jon would be able to survive the scenario you’re proposing with 2 against 1.

  471. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    By the way, sorry for being a Debbie Downer with this 🙁 What you’re saying does make sense on one level! It’s Jon killing a loved one and sacrificing part of Westeros to save the other half and other loved ones. That would be a terrible and atrocious choice to be faced with, absolutely.

    But I don’t know if GRRM would justify masses of collateral damage in this way (innocents). Sacrificing one half of Westeros to save the other half in an ends-justifies-the-means kind of way. He seems to punish characters who decide on war and violence, even if the character thinks it’s for a worthy cause (Jon declaring war on Ramsay at the end of ADWD for instance and he gets a knife in the gut 🙂 ) and (from what I read) has a negative view of collateral damage. It’s not something GRRM appears to be approving?

    And with the TV show in 8×06, Dany thought what she had done was right — viewing destruction as necessary to rebuild the world anew — and this isn’t viewed positively. I know the situation you’re proposing isn’t the same thing (it’s sacrificing the many to take out the one). But I think it’s still in the realm of ends-justifies-the-means. I don’t know if that’s an idea GRRM would try to justify (but I guess somebody would have to ask him this question with this scenario in mind?).

  472. Adrianacandle,

    By the way, sorry for being a Debbie Downer with this 🙁

    Not at all! You’re taking my suggestion a whole lot more seriously than I did; I just threw out the wildest idea I had, off the top. You’ve paid me quite a compliment with your follow-ups.

  473. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Not at all! You’re taking my suggestion a whole lot more seriously than I did; I just threw out the wildest idea I had, off the top. You’ve paid me quite a compliment with your follow-ups.

    Oh, good! I’m glad! 🙂 It has been something I’ve been thinking about since you’ve introduced this scenario — you’ve definitely given me a something-something for my mind to munch on (creepy visual)!

  474. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    I think so too. It seems that Martin is heading toward a dragon battle over KL, but I’m not very sure about the specifics. As I see it, it depends on how will Viseryon go down. Will he die, like he did in the show? Will Euron die too? Will they be both resurrected? Or will Viseryon simply be under a spell, controlled by Euron? The only certain thing is that there are resurrected people all over (Beric, LSH, Patchface, Jon), so we don’t need to see undead/spell bound Viseryon beyond the Wall as it was in the show. (the Wall will fall with the Horn of Winter which figures on the cover of WoW)
    Or perhaps the big Kahuna has in mind something totally different. There is foreshadowing about a dance of dragons over KL in the book (vision style this time). We just don’t know if it will be three or two dragons dancing.

  475. Efi,

    Hey, Efi, how are you feeling? Any better?

    I think so too. It seems that Martin is heading toward a dragon battle over KL, but I’m not very sure about the specifics. As I see it, it depends on how will Viseryon go down. Will he die, like he did in the show? Will Euron die too? Will they be both resurrected? Or will Viseryon simply be under a spell, controlled by Euron? The only certain thing is that there are resurrected people all over (Beric, LSH, Patchface, Jon), so we don’t need to see undead/spell bound Viseryon beyond the Wall as it was in the show. (the Wall will fall with the Horn of Winter which figures on the cover of WoW)
    Or perhaps the big Kahuna has in mind something totally different. There is foreshadowing about a dance of dragons over KL in the book (vision style this time). We just don’t know if it will be three or two dragons dancing.

    I’m not sure there will be a dragon battle over KL per say — this seems to be a matter of debate. Perhaps but it might not be over that city or even lead to that city’s destruction. I think the best we know now is that KL is destroyed. But of course, I think foreshadowing is tricky 🙂

    I think Euron will manage to get a hold of a dragon. I don’t know what will happen to that dragon — but I doubt it’ll be good 🙁

    In some ways, I thought the ice dragon in the show was utilized to provide an expressway into Westeros and simplify access but a wightified dragon could happen in the books. I think all the characters you mentioned were resurrected in different ways under different circumstances. Based on this, I’d expect Viserion, if he does die and is resurrected, may come back in a different way with different consequences.

    But I don’t know how/if the Wall falls or if they even have the true horn. I think the horn is too much shrouded in mystery (it’s unsure if they’ve even found the true horn of winter, there is speculation about that). I do wonder if something possibly compromises the magic in the Wall, weakening its protective barrier and allowing the Others and their wights a path into Westeros.

    Or if the magic is already weakened and compromised after thousands of years. I have a tinfoil over a possible negotiation that may have happened which quelled the Others for 8,000 years 🙂

  476. Adrianacandle,

    Why does it have to be only one conflict? Why can’t it be more? E.g., deciding on the right course of action and acting against one who he (supposedly) loves and respects? Wouldn’t this make it even more complicated and interesting?
    There certainly was no conflict in Jon standing by and watching people being incinerated in a fit of rage and doing nothing to prevent it as we saw in the show. It takes away his character and it takes away his own agency. As I see it, he’s just a puppet in this case, and in the particular way it went down in the show, Jon was a puppet of Daenerys and Tyrion. That is not a better option, certainly not for one who opened the gates to the Free Folk, to be turned into the global idiot of Westeros because he loved (the wrong) woman. As I’ve said before, I think this is a very simple story; to some it was good on screen but I don’t believe it makes an interesting conclusion for a book.

  477. Adrianacandle,

    Ohhhh, thanks for asking, Adriana!
    I’m kind of better, still with a headache but no fever thank Gd (it was pretty violent) still on meds and I have my students’ papers to correct.

    Magic is so complicated in the books! But it’s all over, North and South, so it will happen somehow. And there’s so many horns… Honestly, what was the need for so many horns?

    I was thinking that… could it be that Cersei is still on the throne at the end? It would be an interesting twist if Aegon and Arianne didn’t make it, if the “mummer’s dragon” was just about the support he’d get (e.g. from the Reach), thus leaving Cersei with very little if any support. On the other hand, Cersei winning over Euron after he annihilated Redwyne is totally something she’d do (she did it in the show).
    Could it be that this detail from the show wasn’t just made up, but was book-based?

    Speculation, speculation, speculation…

  478. Efi,

    Why does it have to be only one conflict? Why can’t it be more? E.g., deciding on the right course of action and acting against one who he (supposedly) loves and respects? Wouldn’t this make it even more complicated and interesting?

    One conflict? What do you mean?

    And before Dany does something? I mean, Jon can’t see the future and Jon killing Dany before she’s actually done something monstrous to prevent her from doing something monstrous…. would feel pretty prejudicial to me. And that doesn’t seem to be Jon’s way. I couldn’t call that the right course of action, I’d call that condemning somebody to be guilty before they commit the crime.

    There certainly was no conflict in Jon standing by and watching people being incinerated in a fit of rage and doing nothing to prevent it as we saw in the show. It takes away his character and it takes away his own agency. As I see it, he’s just a puppet in this case, and in the particular way it went down in the show, Jon was a puppet of Daenerys and Tyrion. That is not a better option, certainly not for one who opened the gates to the Free Folk, to be turned into the global idiot of Westeros because he loved (the wrong) woman.

    People turn out to be wrong, even Jon. As it went down in the show, Jon’s faith in Dany was misplaced. And I think there is a true horror in that, one that leads to shock and denial. This wasn’t a monster doing this, this wasn’t Cersei, Ramsay, Joffrey, Euron, or any of those people. This was Dany — somebody he thought would protect the realm, who did help protect the realm when most other calls for help fell on deaf ears, who he felt for in a very personal way — and then she turns out to be the second threat? That’d be devastating, a living nightmare, and something very difficult to contend with.

    To kill Dany before she does this monstrous thing, I think that’d be prejudicial and not representative of Jon’s character. He can’t see the future. Jon would need a reason, a really compelling one, to take this course of action.

    When Jon opened the gates to the free folk, he also opened the gates to free folk who weren’t so good (like the Weeper). He wasn’t killing these people based on a fear of what they might do.

    But I wouldn’t say Jon’s agency was taken away. He is responsible for his choices, not Dany, not Tyrion. Jon. He misplaced his faith, he chose the wrong person — which happens. He’s not Superman. And he watched in horror as this all unfolded around him in shock, he tried to order his men back but they ignored him. And it’s Dany doing this, somebody he loves. That would be a hard situation to process and come to terms with, especially with the urgency the situation demanded.

    As I’ve said before, I think this is a very simple story; to some it was good on screen but I don’t believe it makes an interesting conclusion for a book.

    Oh, I don’t think it was simple at all. People turn out to be wrong, people are subject to human emotion, people put their faith in somebody who turns out to be the greatest threat, who they did (and do) share a common goal of making the world a better place — and then it turns out they want to… but will do it through the worst means possible. Dany truly believed what she was doing was right, she had come to believe this was the way to a better world. And Jon had to face that. I don’t think that’s at all simple — nor is the resulting conflict/choice of what he must do with this. It’s a condemning choice that comes with significant consequences — for Jon, for Dany. And love makes it all that much harder, love on both sides. I think that especially complicates the choice because whatever he decides, it’s not going to be the right one in one way or another. It’s not a celebrated choice, it’s not a clean choice, it’s a damning choice. It’s an impossible choice and it’s one that comes with a significant personal cost. But it’s a choice that saved millions and it helps bring about a need for change in the system.

    I think it’s them, Jon and Dany, who are part of the means to an end to bring about a better world. In their own ways, each wanted a better world but utilized different methods to get it and Dany went kind of delusional extremist in 8×06. And both must pay for their choices. And this better world, I think it’s a world that other people are meant to take up the reins for, not for either Jon or Dany to rule. Sort of like Frodo and Middle Earth. Frodo saved The Shire — but it’s not for himself, it’s for others, for Sam. He can’t stay. And I don’t think Jon can stay either.

    I don’t think that’s a simple story.

    I don’t know how this will go down exactly in the books but I can see the concept behind this in the show at least.

  479. Efi,

    Ohhhh, thanks for asking, Adriana!
    I’m kind of better, still with a headache but no fever thank Gd (it was pretty violent) still on meds and I have my students’ papers to correct.

    Headaches are among the worst things, I think 🙁 Especially when you have paperwork to do and masses of text to read. I wish I could offer you remedies but I’m almost constantly on IBUprofin due to my never-ending headaches and I know that’s not so good for your stomach…

    I think you’d know more remedies than me. I know sleep helps!!!

    I’m really sorry to hear of a violent fever but I’m glad it’s gone! When do you get your results back?

    I’m trying to make hand pies 🙁 It’s not going well. Already screamed and cried and broke down twice. Crust everywhere T____T

    Magic is so complicated in the books! But it’s all over, North and South, so it will happen somehow. And there’s so many horns… Honestly, what was the need for so many horns?

    It is, I think it’s like a force of nature. It can’t really be tamed, it’s unpredictable, and will do what it will…

    As for the horns… I wish Kevin were around. He’d have some theories 🙂

    I was thinking that… could it be that Cersei is still on the throne at the end? It would be an interesting twist if Aegon and Arianne didn’t make it, if the “mummer’s dragon” was just about the support he’d get (e.g. from the Reach), thus leaving Cersei with very little if any support. On the other hand, Cersei winning over Euron after he annihilated Redwyne is totally something she’d do (she did it in the show).
    Could it be that this detail from the show wasn’t just made up, but was book-based?

    If Cersei is alive at the end and on the throne, my crackship dream of Jon x Cersei will be revitalized 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 😉 Oh, the dinners…

    It’s hard to say. Euron is such a wildcard in the books, I think he’s like a force of nature himself. I think Cersei would doom herself in trying to tame him.

    Speculation, speculation, speculation…

    I saw a good video on Patchface… I was reminded of it in your message to Tensor.

  480. Adrianacandle,

    It’s been a while I wanted to comment Jon’s “declaration of war” to Ramsay.
    It’s a very schematic way of putting it. It don’t think that was it. A “declaration” is a very specific act (like Robb calling his banners, or being proclaimed king).
    I think the story unfolded this way on purpose. Jon didn’t set out to make war on Ramsay; he didn’t have any plans on overturning Bolton domination in the North at this time. He only meant to kill Ramsay (rather; it’s a bit blurred, isn’t it?), and perhaps rescue Mance -and whoever else needed rescuing. Of course the murder of Ramsay would then effect a declaration of war on the Watch either by Ramsay if he survived Jon’s murderous escapade, or by Roose Bolton himself.
    Ramsay in his letter threatened the peace with the Free Folk. He accused him for it. His reaction was outside his authority as lord of WF, because the NW is in reality independent of any authority and has lands to sustain itself. The NW is almost a separate dominion. The LC of the NW has absolute authority over the lands (the Gifts) and his men. The lord of WF has authority to execute deserters and can aid the repopulation of the lands if he wants but he also does not intervene in the Watch. The Watch chooses its own leader and no LC was ever appointed (as far as I remember) by any other authority. The only thing is, the Watch depends on the kingdoms for manning the Wall. Since the kingdoms remained deaf to the calls of Mormont and Jon Snow, Jon did what he thought was best by manning the Watch with Free Folk.

    I think that all this is somehow established in the book. Ramsay overstepped his authority as lord of Winterfell and his intervention as I see it has similarities to the Lannister attempt to make Janos Slynt LC. Both attempts failed. The Watch reacted in the second instance by electing Jon, and Jon was not to be bullied around by Ramsay.

    It is rather true that Jon didn’t explain enough to his men (like Feldman says) but I think it is a simplification. There’s other things going on here.
    First, in the extracts above he did explain sufficiently. The dead rise and will come against them.
    Second, the cospirators’ choice itself. They chose to not listen to the LC and they chose to murder him.
    Third, Bowen Marsh was a sympathiser of Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne. Despite the fact that Jon made him his second in command, Bowen had very little gratitude because he didn’t like Jon in the first place.
    Fourth, Jon didn’t -technically- involve the Watch in his escapade, since all his volunteers were Free Folk. If it went awry theoretically the Watch could still claim it was a one-man show, blame it all on him and that could be the end of it with Ramsay -if indeed Ramsay’s problem was Jon Snow.
    Fifth, in the meeting before his murder, Jon revealed the truth; he read the letter to his men. He could have kept it a secret, plan the rescue of the hostages and go on this mission without telling anything to anyone, but he didn’t. He was actually very open and the Watch was informed about what was going on -Ramsay keeping hostages, making demands, threatening to kill everyone.

    So while I think that “the NW takes no part” can be under discussion because it depends on how one interprets Jon’s decision to kill Ramsay, I do not think that the Watch was uninformed or that Jon had been holding back any information from the men. The men already knew that the dead rise, first, because it happened within CB, and second, because of the survivors of the Fist. Attempts against the LC are anyway condemned in this military establishment that needs to have iron discipline. Nothing a LC does justifies mutiny in the Watch.

    It was Bowen’s decision to turn against his LC despite having all information. I think that the episode with Janos Slynt shows that Bowen is susceptible to manipulation and that anybody could turn him against Jon. I’m expecting to see where all this leads in the next book, because the more I think about this particular context, the more something (all of the above) doesn’t feel right.
    Could it be Cersei’s doing, for example? We don’t know what happened to her order of Jon’s murder, but we do know that Jon did swear new recruits in the Watch.
    I don’t expect it to be that simple anymore, as in “Jon was wrong about sth and he paid for it”. From that to killing your LC in his attempt to save the Watch from Ramsay there’s an entire grey area that I expect to be illuminated in WoW.

  481. Efi,

    It’s been a while I wanted to comment Jon’s “declaration of war” to Ramsay.
    It’s a very schematic way of putting it. It don’t think that was it. A “declaration” is a very specific act (like Robb calling his banners, or being proclaimed king).
    I think the story unfolded this way on purpose. Jon didn’t set out to make war on Ramsay; he didn’t have any plans on overturning Bolton domination in the North at this time. He only meant to kill Ramsay (rather; it’s a bit blurred, isn’t it?), and perhaps rescue Mance -and whoever else needed rescuing. Of course the murder of Ramsay would then effect a declaration of war on the Watch either by Ramsay if he survived Jon’s murderous escapade, or by Roose Bolton himself.

    Oh, I think what Jon did was a war cry. I don’t think it can be anything else. Jon is calling for volunteers to join him, it’s not a covert operation:

    “The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words… but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

    “The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless…” Jon paused. “…is there any man here who will come stand with me?”

    The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

    This sounds like a rallying cry to war. And yeah, Jon views Ramsay as the Worst Thing Ever. He’s a monster sullying his father’s seat, he’s a monster rubbing his own moral repulsion in Jon’s face, who is demanding Jon commit morally repulsive acts himself.

    And Jon did bring this about himself but when the Pink Letter arrives, he has no good options over how to respond. He can give into Ramsay’s demands and hand over these people under his protection to a sadist, which Jon won’t do. And in that case, Ramsay will threaten the Night’s Watch himself. Or Jon marches to war against Ramsay and meets him at Winterfell.

    Ramsay in his letter threatened the peace with the Free Folk. He accused him for it. His reaction was outside his authority as lord of WF, because the NW is in reality independent of any authority and has lands to sustain itself. The NW is almost a separate dominion. The LC of the NW has absolute authority over the lands (the Gifts) and his men. The lord of WF has authority to execute deserters and can aid the repopulation of the lands if he wants but he also does not intervene in the Watch. The Watch chooses its own leader and no LC was ever appointed (as far as I remember) by any other authority.

    Ramsay made demands of Jon because Jon interfered in the politics of the realm — when Jon is supposed to be neutral. Jon interfered in Ramsay’s affairs by allowing Melisandre to send Mance for Arya, he warned Stannis about the Karstarks (who are Bolton men), he assisted Stannis in his war against Ramsay — these were all actions Jon took against Ramsay when Jon, in his position as LC, had no place or right to. Jon had no authority to take these actions, Jon is supposed to be neutral and he violated that neutrality. And now, Ramsay is retaliating.

    Ramsay is willing to leave the Night’s Watch alone if Jon concedes to his demands, demands Ramsay is making in response to Jon illegally interfering in the affairs of the realm. This is exactly what Bowen Marsh feared from the Iron Throne with Jon’s aid to Stannis. This is the whole reason why the Watch is meant to be neutral, so they aren’t involved in these wars, they give the kingdoms no cause to retaliate against them so they can focus on the threats to the North.

    I can’t believe I’m defending Ramsay here but I don’t know where he’s threatening the peace of the free folk? He’s demanding hostages of people Jon is sheltering at the Wall — the family of the king Jon is illegally supporting and the son of the man Jon sent to rescue Arya, as well as Arya and Reek.

    Ramsay’s not just demanding random wildlings to piss of the wildlings. He’s demanding specific people to use against Stannis and Mance.

    The only thing is, the Watch depends on the kingdoms for manning the Wall. Since the kingdoms remained deaf to the calls of Mormont and Jon Snow, Jon did what he thought was best by manning the Watch with Free Folk.

    That’s not why Ramsay is retaliating. Ramsay is retaliating because Jon interfered in his affairs.

    [Part 1]

  482. Efi,

    I think that all this is somehow established in the book. Ramsay overstepped his authority as lord of Winterfell and his intervention as I see it has similarities to the Lannister attempt to make Janos Slynt LC. Both attempts failed. The Watch reacted in the second instance by electing Jon, and Jon was not to be bullied around by Ramsay.

    If Jon didn’t take action against Ramsay by sending Mance and his spearwives for Arya, there’d be no issue. Ramsay wouldn’t be sending any Pink Letters. It’s the decision to send Mance to rescue Arya — who is Ramsay’s bride — and Jon’s support for Stannis that brought on retaliation from Ramsay, who is demanding Jon send to him the following:

    The family of the man (Stannis) who Jon is supporting against Ramsay.
    The son of the man Jon sent to rescue Arya.
    As well as Arya and Reek, who Jon doesn’t have but Ramsay believes Jon to be illegally holding since they’re missing (and Jon did send a rescue mission for Arya).

    Jon isn’t supposed to be taking part in the wars of the realm — but he assists Stannis in his war against Ramsay, which is illegal for a neutral LC. It’s taking a stance against Ramsay. Jon isn’t supposed to be sending rescue missions to save family members, he’s supposed to be putting blood kin aside to stay neutral — but this is another action Jon takes against Ramsay.

    Ramsay is responding to Jon’s action as LC against him when Jon had no authority or legal basis to take action in such a way. These were personal missions based on personal morality, they did not benefit the Watch since the Watch is a separate entity apart from the kingdoms.

    It is rather true that Jon didn’t explain enough to his men (like Feldman says) but I think it is a simplification. There’s other things going on here.
    First, in the extracts above he did explain sufficiently. The dead rise and will come against them.

    Jon’s communication wasn’t the best with his men. He explained the issue in mostly terms of humanitarian reasons — when his men didn’t see the wildlings as people. He gave the practical reasoning once (every wildling who dies beyond the Wall rises as a wight) — but mostly relied on the humanitarian reasons more, which was doing little to convince his men.

    He also wasn’t giving Bowen Marsh many great answers to his concerns (Bowen’s concerns over Jon’s support for Stannis, how they were going to feed and shelter everyone). He heard Marsh, knew Marsh’s concerns were valid, but didn’t (and couldn’t) reveal all he was doing because it’d validate Bowen’s concerns. With Stannis, it’d reveal Jon was partaking in the affairs of the realm and supporting him, which is exactly what Bowen Marsh feared. With the food, Jon didn’t tell Marsh about the loan he took out. Jon kind of left Marsh in the dark about a lot of stuff he was doing — and for good reason. Marsh would have a conniption because Jon isn’t supposed to be doing half the crap he was doing in ADWD. And Jon is growing frustrated by Marsh opposing him at every turn so he tries to avoid the fight altogether.

    So there were communication issues. Jon took all these efforts to build peace with the wildlings but he was letting his relationships suffer more and more with his own men. His attitude was kind of, “My way or the highway. Get on board.”

    Second, the cospirators’ choice itself. They chose to not listen to the LC and they chose to murder him.
    Third, Bowen Marsh was a sympathiser of Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne. Despite the fact that Jon made him his second in command, Bowen had very little gratitude because he didn’t like Jon in the first place.

    I don’t think that was it. I think the mutineers had some pretty valid concerns. Feldman lays out a pretty convincing POV they’d have of Jon when he makes his Shieldhall speech:

    From Jon’s own perspective, he is trying to defeat an evil monster, and rescue thousands of civilians. However, from the perspective of Bowen and other Watch men, Jon’s Shieldhall speech has some very different implications. Namely:

    (1) Stannis is apparently dead and the Boltons are angry (confirming the Watch has backed a failed rebel and may pay a price for it)
    (2) but Mance Rayder is alive despite everyone watching him burn (confirming Jon’s suspected involvement in sorcery)
    (3) and Jon had secretly sent the wildling king south (confirming Jon’s suspected conspiring with wildlings against the realm)
    (4) to steal the Lord of Winterfell’s bride (confirming Jon’s interfering in the realm for his family)
    (5) And now he’s sending the Watch on a suicide mission
    (6) Which will be commanded by its long-time enemy Tormund Giantsbane
    (7) While Jon himself rides south to attack the Lord of Winterfell
    (8) With an army of wildlings.

    For a Watch man, any one of these eight is a tremendously serious crisis. The combination of all eight together is world-shattering. All of the worst fears about Jon and his course of action have apparently been proven true at the same time. If Jon realizes this, he doesn’t seem to care very much.

    Marsh was willing to work with Jon. He was honest about his concerns, was forthright with Jon, and made no effort to hide his feelings. Even Jon notes this:

    A lord needed men about him he could rely upon for honest counsel. Marsh and Yarwyck were no lickspittles, and that was to the good… but they were seldom any help either. More and more, he found he knew what they would say before he asked them.

    Jon’s growing frustrations with Marsh and co’s naysaying attitudes prevent Jon from putting in more effort to foster a better relationship with his men, which causes even more tension, wariness, and mistrust between them. After he sends his friends away, the best relationships Jon has are now with the wildlings — which doesn’t look good to Marsh and his men, who don’t have the experiences Jon has with the wildlings, have only fought the wildlings as enemies, haven’t come to the realizations Jon has.

    Now, Marsh is a bigot — no doubt — but his concerns with food and Jon’s support for Stannis were valid and real. They didn’t have enough food for everyone Jon wanted to shelter at the Wall. Cersei did notice Jon’s support for Stannis and sent out an assassin to take him out (luckily for Jon, Cersei’s not very adept).

    [Part 2]

  483. Efi,

    Fourth, Jon didn’t -technically- involve the Watch in his escapade, since all his volunteers were Free Folk. If it went awry theoretically the Watch could still claim it was a one-man show, blame it all on him and that could be the end of it with Ramsay -if indeed Ramsay’s problem was Jon Snow.

    Jon is still Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, he’s supposed to be neutral. This is a Lord Commander declaring action against a kingdom he has no authority over, who he is supposed to be neutral toward. This, in turn, can invite retaliation against the Watch itself.

    Fifth, in the meeting before his murder, Jon revealed the truth; he read the letter to his men. He could have kept it a secret, plan the rescue of the hostages and go on this mission without telling anything to anyone, but he didn’t. He was actually very open and the Watch was informed about what was going on -Ramsay keeping hostages, making demands, threatening to kill everyone.

    Jon’s not going to rescue hostages, he’s going to confront Ramsay. Ramsay has no hostages with him. Here is Ramsay’s letter:

    Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

    Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

    I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

    I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess.

    I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

    It was signed,
    Ramsay Bolton,
    Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

    And more than that, this letter does not exonerate Jon or provide Bowen & co. a reason not to act against him because Jon shares all here. It condemns Jon. These are all actions Jon assisted (Stannis’s war for Winterfell) or initiated (Mance and his spearwives infiltrating Winterfell) — when Jon had no right to do so.

    As Feldman explained, the Pink Letter reveals just how far Jon interfered in the politics of the realm, inviting Bolton retaliation — which is an egregious offense of the Watch’s practices. This letter confirms all of Bowen’s fears about Jon.

    We know what Jon was doing. We know his internal struggles, We know he was trying to do right. Bowen has no such insight — and it’s still a violation which puts the realm and Watch at risk. And Jon is responsible for this — he stepped where he shouldn’t be stepping and now the Watch and all Jon has done to prepare a defense against the Others is in danger.

    So while I think that “the NW takes no part” can be under discussion because it depends on how one interprets Jon’s decision to kill Ramsay, I do not think that the Watch was uninformed or that Jon had been holding back any information from the men.

    Jon brought about the situation in which Ramsay send this letter. Jon is responsible for this. Jon had no right to interfere. It’s Jon who brought this on, not Ramsay, because Jon violated the Watch’s neutrality.

    The Watch was absolutely uninformed until Jon drops the Pink Letter on him, confirming their worst fears.

    The men already knew that the dead rise, first, because it happened within CB, and second, because of the survivors of the Fist. Attempts against the LC are anyway condemned in this military establishment that needs to have iron discipline. Nothing a LC does justifies mutiny in the Watch.

    Well, if they feel this LC is dooming the Watch to retaliation from the North, the South, from all sides and Jon did violate the Watch’s neutrality, putting it at risk, yes, this would be grounds for a mutiny.

    The thing is, it wasn’t a wise decision because Jon is also the only glue holding these tenuous factions together so with Jon gone, the Wall erupts into chaos.

    It was Bowen’s decision to turn against his LC despite having all information. I think that the episode with Janos Slynt shows that Bowen is susceptible to manipulation and that anybody could turn him against Jon. I’m expecting to see where all this leads in the next book, because the more I think about this particular context, the more something (all of the above) doesn’t feel right.

    No, I think Jon gave Bowen Marsh plenty of reasons on his own that had nothing to do with Janos Slynt. The Pink Letter confirmed all of Bowen’s fears, it didn’t exonerate Jon. Jon violated the Night’s Watch neutrality, set up as a protection for the Watch against the wars of the realm so they can focus on the threats to the North.

    Could it be Cersei’s doing, for example? We don’t know what happened to her order of Jon’s murder, but we do know that Jon did swear new recruits in the Watch.

    I wouldn’t think so. Jon provided plenty of reasons for mutiny on his own, as explained by Feldman. Cersei wouldn’t need to do anything for Bowen to feel that Jon was dooming the Watch and the realm with his actions.

    I don’t expect it to be that simple anymore, as in “Jon was wrong about sth and he paid for it”. From that to killing your LC in his attempt to save the Watch from Ramsay there’s an entire grey area that I expect to be illuminated in WoW.

    I don’t think it is simple but I do think ADWD carefully built up a story in which a great many of Jon’s actions, his inability to set the personal aside and his attempts to set the world to rights with every injustice he saw, culminated in the Pink Letter — threatening the very defense against the Others Jon had worked so hard to build. And this is the major consequence of Jon’s actions — not just for Jon but for the Watch and realm at large because this put Jon’s greater war at risk.

    And when Jon declared war against a human monster — somebody with whom Jon is also supposed to be setting aside past grudges and to whom Jon is also supposed to be extending peace to as a neutral party whose only concern is meant to be the defense of the realm against outside threats (as he did with the Weeper) — that’s the straw which breaks the camel’s back and his officers act against him.

    Jon isn’t trying to save the Watch from Ramsay. Jon is the reason why Ramsay is threatening Jon if Jon doesn’t give into his demands.

  484. Dame of Mercia: Adriana – yes, a construction crane. Here’s a link to an article about it. I don’t recognise any of the names mentioned in the article.

    Wow! That’s terrifying… how easily the crane can crumple these houses…

  485. Such long replies, so little time that I have! I have to make this brief.

    “The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone”.

    This line is no declaration of war. It rather reveals how Jon himself viewed what he was about to do, as a personal affair. Jon and his seven-eight volunteers couldn’t fight Ramsay and his army. He rather intended to steal his way in WF, kill him, free the captives.
    From the letter, the Free Folk in the hall learn that 1/ Mance is alive and 2/ he’s held by Ramsay. This causes an uproar. If Jon stayed inactive, he’d probably have problems with the Free Folk. That’s undermining the peace he has reached with them.

    Ramsay has at least one prisoner, and that’s Mance.
    But:
    How does Ramsay know about the wildling princess and the baby and all the rest? From the spearwives, whom he obviously interrogated. So Jon might at this point think that they might be alive too –it’s besides the point though; Jon is going there for Mance, and perhaps for Arya, who he knows that she has escaped.

    How does Ramsay know what Jon did? He can’t have any clue as to how exactly Jon helped Stannis. Karstark doesn’t come into consideration here, since Stannis is informed about the conspiracy in Theon’s first chapter of WoW and Ramsay still doesn’t know that Stannis knows (the battle hasn’t happened yet).
    Ramsay only knows that Jon put up some of Stannis’ men in castles of the Watch. He knows that Selyse and her daughter reside in CB.

    What does Jon know at this point? 1/ Stannis has been defeated 2/ Arya and a guy named Reek escaped 3/ Mance is captive 4/ spearwives might or might not be dead.
    Does he have any reason to trust what Ramsay is saying?
    Well, (imo) no, not much. Mostly because Ramsay’s reaction seems desperate.
    He’s too anxious to get Arya back; Arya’s escape undermines his position in the North. This means that this part of the letter is true.
    He’s also too anxious to get hold of weapons to use against Stannis, as you’ve noted.
    This speaks against the letter’s credibility.

    Jon made up a party of seven wildlings to save his little sister. That was his interference that Ramsay sees and is outraged -because it messes with the stabilization of the Boltons in the North.

    What does Ramsay want? He demanded the surrender of his “wife” (ugh!), of a guy named Reek, of queen Selyse and her daughter, of a baby, of a wildling princess. Since those who seek refuge at the Wall are under the Watch’s protection, Ramsay is not legitimized to raise such demands. Stannis does not reside at the Wall anymore, and Ramsay’s war with him is not Jon’s business.
    So Ramsay himself interfered in the affairs of the Watch by demanding prisoners to use in HIS war, effectively denouncing the Watch’s independence. The Watch is not at war with Ramsay but Ramsay is at war with Stannis.
    That’s major interference if you ask me and doesn’t compare to Jon sending wildlings to free his sister. Arya’s position had nothing to do with Stannis’ war and as you’ve said very cleverly Ramsay wants help with his war.

    Jon doesn’t have much control in the Watch if he gets murdered in the end. With him it’s that he trusted the wrong people. I don’t see how Marsh was willing to work with him, if he opposed him at every turn. Rather, Marsh’s murder of Jon is the culmination of a period in which his dislike for his commander and his disagreement with his policy got in the way of any communication with him and effort to understand him. The murder is proof of that, because it takes time to find other like-minded, it needs talking, planning, etc. No, Marsh wasn’t cooperative. I can’t find any mitigating circumstances for him.

    ——————
    PS. Of course the test is negative. It takes 24hs to get it.

  486. Efi,

    PS. Of course the test is negative. It takes 24hs to get it.

    Oh good, and great turnaround! I’m glad it’s negative 🙂

    “The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone”.
    This line is no declaration of war. It rather reveals how Jon himself viewed what he was about to do, as a personal affair. Jon and his seven-eight volunteers couldn’t fight Ramsay and his army. He rather intended to steal his way in WF, kill him, free the captives.

    I’d argue the lines following are a cry for war when Jon asks for volunteers and that he’s going to make Ramsay answer for his words. Even Jon’s own thoughts echo this (“I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.”) The wildlings volunteer to fight with him. And this is still far, far, far out of Jon’s authority to do so. This is highly illegal.

    From the letter, the Free Folk in the hall learn that 1/ Mance is alive and 2/ he’s held by Ramsay. This causes an uproar. If Jon stayed inactive, he’d probably have problems with the Free Folk. That’s undermining the peace he has reached with them.

    Ramsay’s not threatening the free folk’s peace as you said. This is the wildlings responding to Jon’s call for volunteers to face Ramsay.

    Now, yes, the wildlings may want to march south for Mance anyway, Jon or no Jon — and that would also be totally Jon’s fault because Jon’s the reason why Ramsay has Mance at all, why Mance went down to Winterfell. Jon is also the one who makes the knowledge known.

    The wildlings have been operating under the belief that Mance is dead for nearly all of ADWD — but they were still able to form a tenuous peace with the Watch sans Mance. Mance isn’t required for their peace, Jon is. But Jon sending Mance down to rescue his sister and revealing Mance is alive threatens all of that.

    Ramsay has at least one prisoner, and that’s Mance.
    But:
    How does Ramsay know about the wildling princess and the baby and all the rest? From the spearwives, whom he obviously interrogated. So Jon might at this point think that they might be alive too –it’s besides the point though; Jon is going there for Mance, and perhaps for Arya, who he knows that she has escaped.

    This remains to be seen but Jon going there for Mance isn’t reflected in Jon’s thoughts. Also, Jon knows Ramsay doesn’t have Arya because Ramsay is demanding Jon send Arya back.

    How does Ramsay know what Jon did? He can’t have any clue as to how exactly Jon helped Stannis. Karstark doesn’t come into consideration here, since Stannis is informed about the conspiracy in Theon’s first chapter of WoW and Ramsay still doesn’t know that Stannis knows (the battle hasn’t happened yet).

    Well, Cersei knows Jon has aided Stannis… so wouldn’t Ramsay? It’s the appearance of things: Jon is sheltering Stannis at the Wall while Stannis prepares for his war. And while Stannis marches on Winterfell, Selyse and Shireen and all of their men reside at Castle Black. That might look like taking sides.

    Additionally, Jon publicly marries Alys to a Thenn — which also goes beyond his capacity as LC and takes away the Karhold from the Bolton Karstarks. As gross as Cregan and Arnolf are, it’s still legal for Cregan to marry Alys (whether she wants to or not) for her claim and to take the Karhold — which would provide another base of power for the Boltons. Meanwhile, Jon prevents Cregan from claiming guest right at Castle Black and meets him on the road when they come to carry Alys off against her will. And imprisons Cregan.

    This does look like Jon is taking sides. It definitely doesn’t look like a neutral Jon (and Jon isn’t… and Jon knows it).

    And I think the most major thing is that Jon sent a team of wildlings to steal Ramsay’s bride though. And that’s certain

    Ramsay only knows that Jon put up some of Stannis’ men in castles of the Watch. He knows that Selyse and her daughter reside in CB.

    We don’t know what Ramsay knows, it’s still a matter of debate how he knows.

    What does Jon know at this point? 1/ Stannis has been defeated 2/ Arya and a guy named Reek escaped 3/ Mance is captive 4/ spearwives might or might not be dead.
    Does he have any reason to trust what Ramsay is saying?
    Well, (imo) no, not much. Mostly because Ramsay’s reaction seems desperate.

    Jon seems to believe it based on his response. He has no doubts over its authenticity in his thoughts and is prepared to confront Ramsay over it.

    He’s too anxious to get Arya back; Arya’s escape undermines his position in the North. This means that this part of the letter is true.
    He’s also too anxious to get hold of weapons to use against Stannis, as you’ve noted.
    This speaks against the letter’s credibility.

    I think this is another debate… whether or not the Pink Letter is true or if Ramsay really authored it. However, Jon seems to believe it’s real and that Ramsay is the one who sent it.

    But I don’t know how what you’ve said speaks against the letter’s credibility?

    Jon made up a party of seven wildlings to save his little sister. That was his interference that Ramsay sees and is outraged -because it messes with the stabilization of the Boltons in the North.

    And, as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, Jon had zero right to do this. This, in and of itself, is an act of war — it would be between any other two kingdoms (if one kingdom stole the bride of another kingdom) and a cause for war.

    Ramsay is a monster but that doesn’t change the law. The Lord Commander can’t go taking the Lord of Winterfell’s wife, no matter what kind of nightmare Ramsay is or who this wife is to the Lord Commander.

    [Part 1]

  487. Efi,

    What does Ramsay want? He demanded the surrender of his “wife” (ugh!), of a guy named Reek, of queen Selyse and her daughter, of a baby, of a wildling princess. Since those who seek refuge at the Wall are under the Watch’s protection, Ramsay is not legitimized to raise such demands. Stannis does not reside at the Wall anymore, and Ramsay’s war with him is not Jon’s business.

    Oh, I think this is Ramsay’s attempt at negotiation since the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch broke neutrality to take action against him. And the above people are not under Jon’s authority but Stannis’s. Mance’s son, Val — they’re Stannis captives, not refugees. Selyse and Shireen are also not refugees under the jurisdiction of the Watch, they’re there under Stannis. And Stannis is one of the people acting against Ramsay. If Jon had Reek (Theon) or Arya, it also wouldn’t be Jon’s right to keep them as a neutral party since Castle Black isn’t an asylum.

    As Jon said, “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words…”

    And it’s not for Jon to defend Stannis’s wife and family or his captives on Stannis’s behalf. That’s not the function of the Watch. Of course, there’s no way Jon will give them over but legally, these people aren’t Jon’s business or that of the Watch’s. They’re Stannis’s and Jon isn’t supposed to be supporting Stannis.

    So Ramsay himself interfered in the affairs of the Watch by demanding prisoners to use in HIS war, effectively denouncing the Watch’s independence. The Watch is not at war with Ramsay but Ramsay is at war with Stannis.

    Stannis’s family and captives aren’t Watch business. If Jon were to send them down, Ramsay would leave them alone. That would be the legal and neutral thing to do — but it’d also be morally wrong in another sense, considering the monster Ramsay is. Which is exactly why Jon has no good options in how to respond.

    That’s major interference if you ask me and doesn’t compare to Jon sending wildlings to free his sister. Arya’s position had nothing to do with Stannis’ war and as you’ve said very cleverly Ramsay wants help with his war.

    This whole situation came about because Jon interfered — in more ways than one. Arya is no longer Jon’s business, he has no right to send wildlings (or anyone) to rescue her. He has no right to take away the Lord of Winterfell’s wife, no matter who that Lord of Winterfell is. The Watch is not for fighting the personal wars or going on personal missions of their Lord Commander. They’re there to defend the realm against external threats. What Jon is doing with Ramsay and Stannis — that is taking sides and would invite retaliation under normal circumstances between kingdoms. This is exactly why the Watch is supposed to stay out of it.

    With him it’s that he trusted the wrong people.

    I don’t think that’s it. I think it’s that Jon made the wrong choices.

    Jon was right to argue on behalf of the wildlings, to include them in the realms of men. That is the Watch’s oath and the wildlings are men, they’re living, breathing people. He was right to do everything he did to build the Wall’s defenses. That falls under the authority of the Lord Commander.

    He was not in the legal right to support Stannis, to send Mance and his spearwives to rescue a family member he’s supposed to put aside, to take part of Melisandre’s schemes to do so, to marry Alys to Signorn and give her an army to take back her home, to aid in Stannis’s plan against the Boltons.

    These actions all have a sound moral reasoning… but they’re also endangering everything Jon is trying to do to defend the realm because they compromise the Watch’s neutrality, putting the Watch at risk from the southern kingdoms who may not like the sides the Watch (under Jon) is appearing to take.

    Marsh doesn’t know about everything Jon does but he does know about Jon’s support for Stannis, which worries him because it does put the Watch at risk. Bowen rightfully feared the wrath of the Iron Throne — and his concerns are proven true since Cersei was gunning for Jon because of his support for Stannis. As of the Pink Letter, Marsh also knows Mance is alive and wasn’t burned. And that Jon’s not surprised. Jon didn’t share this with Marsh — that the Mance they saw Mel burn was a glamoured Rattlebones. The Pink Letter is demanding Jon send Ramsay’s “bride back”, revealing Jon’s involvement in a plan to interfere with the realm’s affairs for blood kin. Jon is sending a Watch rescue mission to Hardhome, a mission that has proven pretty fatal time and time again under Cotter Pyke — and Jon has appointed Tormund to lead it, not a Watchmen. A wildling, one of the people Bowen views as an enemy. Meanwhile, Jon himself can’t go any longer (as he had told Bowen before receiving the Pink Letter) because he will be going south to deal with business Jon has no business dealing with.

    I agree with Feldman when he says of Jon,

    It would have been easy for Martin to design the arc so that Jon had a clear casus belli to justify war on the Boltons. Instead, he did the opposite, arranging the arc so that it’s the Boltons who have a clear casus belli against Jon. This, I believe, is Martin’s fascinating thematic point — that well-meaning and heroic people, for understandable and sympathetic reasons, can choose to risk and endanger a peace, and go down the path of war instead. And that the consequences of this behavior can be quite dire for the lives of the people they are charged to protect.

    _____

    I don’t see how Marsh was willing to work with him, if he opposed him at every turn.

    Bowen disapproved of what Jon was doing and would verbally oppose Jon’s actions when given the opportunity to provide advice — as is Bowen’s right and role as one of Jon’s men and advisors. It’s Bowen’s job to give honest council, as even Jon says: this is the role of an advisor — to provide honest council. He doesn’t have to agree with Jon to work with him. Bowen follows orders, he doesn’t refuse them. He does disagree with many of them but he still follows them regardless.

    Rather, Marsh’s murder of Jon is the culmination of a period in which his dislike for his commander and his disagreement with his policy got in the way of any communication with him and effort to understand him. The murder is proof of that, because it takes time to find other like-minded, it needs talking, planning, etc. No, Marsh wasn’t cooperative. I can’t find any mitigating circumstances for him.

    I disagree. I think Feldman laid out a pretty convincing case for why Marsh does what he does and how Marsh views Jon is dooming the Watch with his actions with the arrival of the Pink Letter.

    And Marsh does voice his thoughts and concerns to Jon honestly and often. That’s not stalling communication, that is communication — even if it’s not Marsh agreeing with Jon’s actions. Marsh isn’t refusing to talk to Jon, suppressing concerns, or faking approval. He’s open and forthright with Jon. And Jon does view some of Marsh’s concerns as valid, as things he needs to address, but doesn’t fully reveal to Marsh how he plans to do this. With Stannis, Jon explains that they are helping Stannis because Stannis helped them and he’s not so sure Stannis will lose this war. That doesn’t address that Marsh fears any appearance of support for Stannis will invite the Iron Throne’s wrath. That’s not Jon saying, “I get it. Here’s how we’ll distance ourselves from Stannis.” Jon is explaining why he feels he must help Stannis and has no apparent plans to stop. And indeed, Jon doesn’t stop. Jon gets more public about it, taking the Karhold away from the Bolton Karstarks, who planned to forcibly marry Alys for her claim, and giving Alys an army to fight them.

    Morally, that’s a yay! Go, Jon! …. If he were King in the North and had the authority to make these decisions. But he doesn’t. He’s supposed to be wholly neutral, turning a blind eye to these wars. So legally, that’s a huge yikes.

  488. Adrianacandle,

    Was it during a dream? I think we first hear about Maggy in AFFC, Cersei III during Tommen and Magaery’s wedding…

    The actual dream recalling the prediction happens in a later Cersei chapter. (My copy, the ‘2015 Special Boxed Bantam Edition,’ has no numbers for the chapters; her dream appears on pp. 768 – 772 of A Feast for Crows.)

    The old woman was not done with her, however. “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

    Aside from the question of how Maggy made it clear to Cersei she’d used a ‘q’ without the obligatory ‘u’ following it, it’s worth noticing the first and second clauses can be read literally, whilst the third clause is clearly metaphorical. Not even an adherent to the creed of the Ironborn would think of drowning in actual tears, so this seems to be a cliche for “after you have been overcome with grief.”

    Events as depicted in the show support reading the first two clauses literally: Cersei has three golden-haired children, and all three of them die before she does. If we read the first two clauses literally and the third one metaphorically, then that suggests (to this reader, at least), we should also read the fourth clause metaphorically. We have further evidence: ‘the valonqar’ cannot apply literally to Cersei, because she has two siblings, not just one.

    Reading the third and fourth clauses metaphorically, we get something like, “and after your grief overwhelms you, you shall lose all desire to live.” That would seem to be a very safe prediction for how a woman would feel after all of her children die!

  489. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    The actual dream recalling the prediction happens in a later Cersei chapter. (My copy, the ‘2015 Special Boxed Bantam Edition,’ has no numbers for the chapters; her dream appears on pp. 768 – 772 of A Feast for Crows.)

    Okay, thanks for this! 🙂

    I think I was challenging the idea that the Maggy the Frog prophecy may not have occurred in the real world based on the idea that Cersei’s first recollection of the prophecy comes to her in a dream (and I think her first recollection is during Tommen and Margaery’s wedding..?)

    But I think I may have totally misunderstood your point.

    Aside from the question of how Maggy made it clear to Cersei she’d used a ‘q’ without the obligatory ‘u’ following it, it’s worth noticing the first and second clauses can be read literally, whilst the third clause is clearly metaphorical. Not even an adherent to the creed of the Ironborn would think of drowning in actual tears, so this seems to be a cliche for “after you have been overcome with grief.”

    You can totally cry yourself 2 inches of water into a pan to stick your face and drown yourself in! 😉

    (Can you? … It may take some collection time but…)

    No, I agree. The third would be metaphorical (I mean, I guess Cersei can choke on or suffocate on her own phlegm as a result from copious sobbing but the prophecy doesn’t say Cersei will drown in her own phlegm… but what a prophecy that would be!) and I can see the first two being literal.

    Events as depicted in the show support reading the first two clauses literally: Cersei has three golden-haired children, and all three of them die before she does. If we read the first two clauses literally and the third one metaphorically, then that suggests (to this reader, at least), we should also read the fourth clause metaphorically. We have further evidence: ‘the valonqar’ cannot apply literally to Cersei, because she has two siblings, not just one.

    I’d interpret ‘the valonqar’ to mean there’s only one valonqar, only one who it could possibly be, and that it can be either of her younger siblings or somebody else. Not that Cersei only has one younger sibling.

    Reading the third and fourth clauses metaphorically, we get something like, “and after your grief overwhelms you, you shall lose all desire to live.” That would seem to be a very safe prediction for how a woman would feel after all of her children die!

    Well…. even show Cersei, who seems to love her children more than book Cersei, didn’t lose her will to live upon Tommen’s death. She was able to perform a successful wine-boarding and take the crown.

    And I think book Cersei loves her children to a certain extent (as an extension of herself) but I don’t think she does as much as show Cersei. So I’m not sure book Cersei would despair herself to death over the loss of her children…

    If we were talking about Catelyn, absolutely (and I think she does lose her will to live when she thinks all her kids are gone and Robb is killed, Catelyn completely gives up). But Cersei…? I don’t know…

  490. Adrianacandle,

    Yes, but Feldman in that extract says pretty much what I’m saying. Ramsay’s pink letter equals a declaration of war on the Watch (almost), not the other way round.
    Without doubt it’s Jon’s fault and the complexity of the situation, the threat from the North, Stannis’ presence, the Boltons in WF, invite no simple solutions for Jon, but Ramsay doesn’t know what Jon has done at the moment. He only knows what he sees, which he puts on the paper. If he knew about Karhold and Alys it’d be the first thing he’d put on that damn letter; the same is true for Jon’s aid of Stannis with the mountain clans. So I take it that Jon has seen through the lines enough of Ramsay’s insecurity to question the truthfulness of the letter. In Bran’s words, there’s few things that Jon wouldn’t see.
    So I take Ramsay’s letter as a gross interference in the affairs of the Watch. Ramsay’s demanding the delivery of women and children who are currently guests of the Watch (even though I think that Val and the baby are more in the category of refugees). Ramsay on his part has no right to interfere in the Watch. Jon is not under his authority, he is not his subordinate, so Ramsay has no authority to command him as if he were his captain.
    The wildlings are not Stannis’ prisoners. Stannis only has the prisoners he got in the battle, not the rest that Jon has brought over under treaty –the terms: deliver the gold and precious objects, surrender hostages to the Watch. Stannis wanted them to fight for him, but Jon averted that and gave him access to the mountain clans instead. (I might be misremembering; it’s been a while since my re-read of Jon’s chapters) Stannis using Free Folk in his war would have been worse and the Northerners wouldn’t forgive him for that. The Free Folk needed to remain in the responsibility of the Watch, and Jon needed them to man the castles. Tormund would bring the Free Folk from Hardhome from the route north of the Wall.
    Without doubt this is a situation that has escalated badly inside the Watch with everything that Jon has done, but the situation in the Watch doesn’t have much to do with Ramsay’s letter. The problem was, as you noted, the admission of the Free Folk south of the Wall; Stannis residing at CB and Selyse at Eastwatch; the manning of the castles with FF; Jon’s plans to bring more FF from Hardhome; Ramsay’s letter which seems to be the cherry on the cake.
    Ramsay on the other hand has to deal with a lot of suspicion and hostility inside WF; Manderlys and Freys are at each other’s throats; Stannis is a few hours away; Freys are dying like flies (lol, I like this part); there’s mountains of snow outside the castle. And that piece of sh*t Jon Snow has had the nerve to abduct FArya. It’s not going well for Ramsay, and this whole situation produces the pink letter, but Ramsay doesn’t know the rest.

  491. Efi,

    Yes, but Feldman in that extract says pretty much what I’m saying. Ramsay’s pink letter equals a declaration of war on the Watch (almost), not the other way round.

    I don’t think Feldman is quite saying what you’re saying. In that extract, he’s saying that Ramsay has just cause to attack Jon, not Jon having just cause to attack Ramsay. He also disagrees with the argument that Jon is declaring war on Ramsay for the good of the Watch:

    Some fans have made the argument that Jon only decides to march south against Ramsay because it is the only way to protect the Watch, and therefore the larger struggle, from a supposedly-imminent Bolton attack. The problem is that Jon never says or thinks this. What he does repeatedly dwell on, is Ramsay’s evil.

    He also argues that Jon has lost site of the bigger picture — it’s not for the Watch that Jon wants to attack Ramsay, it’s because Ramsay is a monster Jon feels he must take out. And that it’s personal.

    Without doubt it’s Jon’s fault and the complexity of the situation, the threat from the North, Stannis’ presence, the Boltons in WF, invite no simple solutions for Jon, but Ramsay doesn’t know what Jon has done at the moment. He only knows what he sees, which he puts on the paper. If he knew about Karhold and Alys it’d be the first thing he’d put on that damn letter; the same is true for Jon’s aid of Stannis with the mountain clans.

    Some of these actions on Jon’s part would be things Ramsay would reasonably be aware of — Jon publicly married a highborn girl to a wildling in which Ramsay’s Karstarks lost the Karhold. Jon publicly imprisoned a Bolton supporter. People already know Jon is aiding Stannis (including Cersei), and Ramsay also seems to know it was Jon who sent Mance to rescue Arya.

    Plus, Ramsay does know Stannis and his family have been residing at Castle Black. Castle Black can’t be used as an asylum so it does appear that Jon is taking sides.

    It’s uncertain what Ramsay knows exactly but it seems Ramsay knows enough and if Jon hadn’t taken these actions and remained neutral, Ramsay wouldn’t be sending Jon any Pink Letters.

    So I take it that Jon has seen through the lines enough of Ramsay’s insecurity to question the truthfulness of the letter. In Bran’s words, there’s few things that Jon wouldn’t see.

    But Jon believes the letter is from Ramsay and what Ramsay is saying. Where is it indicated that Jon doubts its authenticity?

    So I take Ramsay’s letter as a gross interference in the affairs of the Watch. Ramsay’s demanding the delivery of women and children who are currently guests of the Watch (even though I think that Val and the baby are more in the category of refugees). Ramsay on his part has no right to interfere in the Watch. Jon is not under his authority, he is not his subordinate, so Ramsay has no authority to command him as if he were his captain.

    The people Ramsay is demanding are not under the authority of the Watch. They are under Stannis’s. They are not part of the Watch’s business so Ramsay demanding them is not a interference in the Watch’s affairs. They have nothing to do with the Watch’s affairs.

    Val and Mance’s son are not refugees. They are Stannis’s captives. When Jon sent Val to go search for Tormund or when Jon switched the babies, he knew that if Stannis found out, he’d be subject to execution from Stannis.

    The wildlings are not Stannis’ prisoners. Stannis only has the prisoners he got in the battle, not the rest that Jon has brought over under treaty –the terms: deliver the gold and precious objects, surrender hostages to the Watch.

    These aren’t the wildlings Ramsay is demanding. The wildlings Ramsay is demanding are Val and Mance’s son — who are the captives Stannis took after defeating Mance’s host.

    The wildlings you’re talking about are Tormund’s band. Tormund and Jon had reached terms for Tormund’s band to pass through the Wall — they give up their valuables to help pay for the food to feed them (though it’s not enough, that’s why Jon has to take out the loan) and allow for hostages to prevent the wildlings raiding and raping down south. The hostages will be given light work to do but they are insurance that the wildlings don’t threaten and act against the southern kingdoms once they are past the Wall.

    The two wildlings Ramsay wants are not from Tormund’s band, they are captives of Stannis.

    The Free Folk needed to remain in the responsibility of the Watch, and Jon needed them to man the castles.

    Val and Mance’s son are not included in the wildlings Jon argued for, they’re not under the Watch. Val and Mance’s son specifically are captives of Stannis:

    “This had best not be some bastard’s trick. Will I trade three hundred fighters for three thousand? Aye, I will. I am not an utter fool. If I leave the girl with you as well, do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?”

    She is not a princess. “As you wish, Your Grace.”

    “Do I need to make you swear an oath before a tree?”

    “No.” Was that a jape? With Stannis, it was hard to tell.

    “Done, then. Now, where are these men?”

    “I will.” Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. “Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?” the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor. 

    “Val is the younger sister of Dalla, who was Mance Rayder’s wife and mother to his son. King Stannis took Val and the child captive after Dalla died in childbed, but she is no princess, not as you mean it.”

    [Jon to Val] “Freedom of the castle you shall have, but I regret to say you must remain a captive. I can promise that you will not be troubled by unwanted visitors, however. My own men guard Hardin’s Tower, not the queen’s. And Wun Wun sleeps in the entry hall.”

    _____

    Without doubt this is a situation that has escalated badly inside the Watch with everything that Jon has done, but the situation in the Watch doesn’t have much to do with Ramsay’s letter. The problem was, as you noted, the admission of the Free Folk south of the Wall; Stannis residing at CB and Selyse at Eastwatch; the manning of the castles with FF; Jon’s plans to bring more FF from Hardhome; Ramsay’s letter which seems to be the cherry on the cake.

    Ramsay’s letter is what confirms Bowen Marsh’s fears — that Jon has been interfering. Unlike how it was depicted in the show, Marsh and the officers were willing to live with the wildlings being brought south of the Wall. They hated it but once Jon laid out his arguments, followed orders. This was part of their growing discontentment but it wasn’t the dealbreaker. Ramsay’s letter is what confirms that Jon has been vastly overstepping and now has invited the Bolton wrath due his non-Watch-related activities.

    Ramsay on the other hand has to deal with a lot of suspicion and hostility inside WF; Manderlys and Freys are at each other’s throats; Stannis is a few hours away; Freys are dying like flies (lol, I like this part); there’s mountains of snow outside the castle. And that piece of sh*t Jon Snow has had the nerve to abduct FArya. It’s not going well for Ramsay, and this whole situation produces the pink letter, but Ramsay doesn’t know the rest.

    As I argued in this post and my previous posts, Ramsay certainly knows enough to know Jon has been aiding Stannis — as Cersei knows this. And this is the case, plus Jon has taken several public actions to indicate such. Actions that Ramsay would likely know about. Plus, Ramsay knows about Jon allowing Melisandre to send Mance on his behalf to take Arya, which is an act of war itself. It’s because of Jon’s interference that Ramsay is sending the letter at all — because Jon is illegally acting against Ramsay.

    If Jon had stayed neutral, didn’t fight his personal wars and focused solely on the defense of the Watch, there’d be no Pink Letter. However, his involvement in Ramsay’s affairs, taking sides with Stannis, and acting against the Boltons when neutrality is what protects the Watch from the wars of the realm — now the Watch loses that protection.

    The Watch isn’t simply an independent faction, they are a neutral faction. They’re not supposed to be in conflict with any of the kingdoms because its purpose is to focus on external threats, not deal with internal — both of which Jon was doing.

  492. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ”… The old woman was not done with her, however. “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

    Aside from the question of how Maggy made it clear to Cersei she’d used a ‘q’ without the obligatory ‘u’ following it, it’s worth noticing the first and second clauses can be read literally, whilst the third clause is clearly metaphorical. Not even an adherent to the creed of the Ironborn would think of drowning in actual tears, so this seems to be a cliche for “after you have been overcome with grief.”

    Events as depicted in the show support reading the first two clauses literally: Cersei has three golden-haired children, and all three of them die before she does. If we read the first two clauses literally and the third one metaphorically, then that suggests (to this reader, at least), we should also read the fourth clause metaphorically. We have further evidence: ‘the valonqar’ cannot apply literally to Cersei, because she has two siblings, not just one.

    Reading the third and fourth clauses metaphorically, we get something like, “and after your grief overwhelms you, you shall lose all desire to live.” That would seem to be a very safe prediction for how a woman would feel after all of her children die!”

    ➖➖➖➖
    Are we back on the Valonqar train again? 🚂

    If so, I do not understand what you mean by construing the third and fourth clauses metaphorically, or how you arrive at the interpretation, “....and after your grief overwhelms you, you shall lose all desire to live.”

    Lemme go find my tinfoil hazmat suit and see if I can retrieve a literal interpretation from my far-fetched theories junk pile… 🧑🏻‍🚀

  493. Ten Bears,

    If so, I do not understand what you mean by construing the third and fourth clauses metaphorically, or how you arrive at the interpretation, “….and after your grief overwhelms you, you shall lose all desire to live.”

    The fault is all mine. I left out an important point about “the valonqar,” “the little sibling.” Cersei does not have “the” little sibling, because she has two of them. So, to what “little sibling” does this refer?

    “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

    To drown in one’s own tears is a cliche for overwhelming grief. I had meant to claim “the little sibling” of such grief would be despair or depression, sufficient to render Cersei unwilling to live, or causing her to numbly live on as a mere shadow of her former self. Visibly alive, but emotionally dead.

    So, Maggy’s prediction has four parts, two literal parts followed by two metaphorical parts. All together, they claim Cersei will: (1) have three golden-haired children, (2) all of whom will die before she does, and as a result Cersei will (3) suffer overwhelming grief (4) to the point she won’t really care if she’s alive or dead anymore.

    In the show, we saw (1) and (2) come true, and we can argue if (3) led to (4) or not. As the valonqar prediction does not appear in the show, we can’t conclude from the show if any valonqar interpretation is valid or not. (Send us the books, George!)

  494. Tron79,

    It’s been a while I wanted to reply to this post while mulling it over in my feverish mind in the past few days.
    I think part of the bleakness that GoT has left us with upon the series finale is due to the de-characterization of the book characters. I don’t confuse the TV series with the book anymore therefore I believe that I can appreciate both for what they were. While the producers tried to keep close to the book and inserted things that can only come from the book (i.e. “hold the door”, Aegon’s dagger, Bran king, etc) they chose a much simpler narrative especially in season 8 (I still think season 7 was too complicated) and tried to depict on screen a classic but never failing good vs evil trope, which, however, in this case did fail, mostly because it wasn’t the story they were telling from the beginning anyway.
    Cases in point are Cersei and Tyrion. While book Cersei is a dumb power hungry bitch filled with contempt for others, show Cersei is far from that, so how can she be evil? Tyrion is the criminal that he is in the books, so how is he allowed to serve community service and Jon Snow, the “hero” (disputed) of the show is condemned to exile because he killed the invader with the nukes? Well, Cersei’s fate was dictated by the elimination of the FAegon-Dorne and Euron plot from the books; Tyrion’s was dictated by their (and the audience’s) preference for this character and PD in particular, and by the fact that his de-characterization was too far off to change suddenly in season 8. Jon’s was dictated by the “epic romance” which they tried to show because the audience was expecting it. Surely you can’t have the one who murdered the audience’s beloved heroine, the face on which the show built all its campaigns end up in any place other than exile! He needs to be punished for what he did (killing Daenerys; the genocide of KL doesn’t come into question with regard to his punishment).
    Some other things happened on screen for shock value, designed to make a point. Ollie found refuge in the Watch after his parents’ killing by the wildlings, but turned against the one who had trusted him; Jon killed a Northerner who tried to rape a woman during the fall of KL. The first is show invention only; the second is a call back to Sansa’s attempted gang rape scene (season 2?), and for those who’ve read the books, to a note that “Unsullied don’t rape”. Both are quite nasty and problematic, designed to disturb the audience: why did Ollie have to be a kid? Why did Jon have to turn against a Northerner?
    I think the producers invested a lot on such scenes for shock value, but that’s TV in the US I guess; it seems to favor such extremities more and more in the past few years. Shock value fed GoT to become what it was, while the heroes accomodated it even though it was out of their (book) character.
    It is only in retrospect that one can evaluate these things; and it becomes easier if one has read the books. Olly doesn’t exist in the book. Theon’s torture is described only in his memories; no other torture is described anywhere (e.g. we don’t know what Qyburn does to his victims). In the show they’ve had Sansa apologize to each and everyone of her abusers: Tyrion, Sandor, even for show-invention Ramsay, and thank G-d there was no scene with Cersei. As I said, when de-characterization is so advanced, these things are to be expected.

    But in the books there’s scenes of quiet resistance to the cruelty of Westeros in almost every chapter.
    Ned took baby Jon in, while he could have given him to some farmer’s family to raise, or even leave behind the Wall to be raised by the wildlings. Arya is the one who constantly fights against injustice in her own way. Sansa refuses to give up on her ideals; she intervenes for Dontos knowing that it might cost her head. Jon admits the Free Folk south of the Wall to save them and swaps the babies to guard them from Melisandre’s fire. Sam is the one who is supposedly a craven, and yet he is singularly brave when he has to be and saves Gilly and her baby. Daenerys does save the slaves although she f*cks everything up in Essos. Brienne sticks to her code of honor even though everybody tells her she shouldn’t; she achieves things through that code and sets the example for Jamie.

    So do I believe that the ending of the book will be the same? No, not really. If anything, the flavor will be completely different. In my opinion, while Jon might end up where he did, Tyrion is beyond salvation and that changes everything. The subject of choice-and-consequences that permeats ASoIaF will change everything in the books. The heroes while making choices also have redeeming qualities, such as sacrifice, which is very powerful. We see that in particular with Jon and Jamie, who are willing to sacrifice their reputation, their destiny, themselves in general, for something better, for saving people instead of killing. Ned in GoT admitted to treason for saving his daughter, just like he admitted adultery for saving Jon once, so it must count for something.
    Therein lies the hope, I think. It’s not as bleak as it seems, and I don’t think that the crimes will be rewarded; on the contrary, the conclusion will reveal everyone’s true colors and it will be the result of their own choices. And if the characters’ ending is is their own choice too, why not?

  495. Efi,

    Cases in point are Cersei and Tyrion. While book Cersei is a dumb power hungry bitch filled with contempt for others, show Cersei is far from that, so how can she be evil? Tyrion is the criminal that he is in the books, so how is he allowed to serve community service and Jon Snow, the “hero” (disputed) of the show is condemned to exile because he killed the invader with the nukes? Well, Cersei’s fate was dictated by the elimination of the FAegon-Dorne and Euron plot from the books; Tyrion’s was dictated by their (and the audience’s) preference for this character and PD in particular, and by the fact that his de-characterization was too far off to change suddenly in season 8. Jon’s was dictated by the “epic romance” which they tried to show because the audience was expecting it. Surely you can’t have the one who murdered the audience’s beloved heroine, the face on which the show built all its campaigns end up in any place other than exile! He needs to be punished for what he did (killing Daenerys; the genocide of KL doesn’t come into question with regard to his punishment).

    Well, Jon being exiled for killing Dany is following established in-universe laws though since Jon committed queenslaying and oathbreaking — these are considered two of Westeros’s biggest crimes in Westeros’s universe. I don’t think it was done simply because Dany is a beloved character (if that really dictated the story, I’d imagine D&D would avoid having Dany do what she did in 8×05 and 8×06 or at least make her actions less terrible by forcing her into that choice). Bran exiled Jon in the interests of peace and to avoid another war with those who were holding him: Greyworm and the Unsullied. What’s odd is that Greyworm didn’t kill Jon on the spot and instead, opted for imprisonment.

    Dany took King’s Landing by right-of-conquest and legitimately became queen. As Kevin pointed out a while back, what she did after she won the city is technically legal since she’s queen and decides the law. There’s no UN in the ASOIAF universe to hold anyone responsible for this. If that were the case, why not hold the Northerners responsible who actually did take part, ignoring their commander’s orders to not take part?

    I mean, the monarch decides the punishment, as Bran did in the dragonpit scene after he was elected and I’d say Jon being punished for queenslaying and oathbreaking makes sense since it’s been established those are two major crimes in Westeros.

    I agree that the elimination of Young Griff probably made a difference and she may be dead by the time it comes to this point in the books.

    Some other things happened on screen for shock value, designed to make a point. Ollie found refuge in the Watch after his parents’ killing by the wildlings, but turned against the one who had trusted him; Jon killed a Northerner who tried to rape a woman during the fall of KL. The first is show invention only; the second is a call back to Sansa’s attempted gang rape scene (season 2?), and for those who’ve read the books, to a note that “Unsullied don’t rape”. Both are quite nasty and problematic, designed to disturb the audience: why did Ollie have to be a kid? Why did Jon have to turn against a Northerner?

    I think Olly was meant to add some sympathy for the mutineering side when he killed Jon — so the mutineers don’t quite come off as so horrible (although, I’d argue — per my responses above — that the mutineers’ reasons fare far better in the books since in the show, Alliser allows Jon and the wildlings to pass… only to lead a mutiny in killing him for it the next day). I think Olly dealing the killing blow is about Olly being a kid. I think that was about adding ambiguity to the situation at hand.

    With Jon and the Northerner, I don’t think it was about Sansa. I think it was about showing the brutal realities of a sack on the ground. And I think this incident really demonstrated just how much things spiraled out of control, forcing Jon to take drastic measures and turn against one of his own because even his own men were refusing to obey him due to their bloodlust.

    But ultimately, I don’t think either of these choices were for shock value. I think Olly was about adding ambiguity and sympathy to the mutineers’ actions and I think Jon having to kill a Northerner to stop him from raping a woman was to show the realities of a sack and that the Northerners are subject to the same impulses for brutality as other soldiers.

  496. Efi,

    It is only in retrospect that one can evaluate these things; and it becomes easier if one has read the books. Olly doesn’t exist in the book. Theon’s torture is described only in his memories; no other torture is described anywhere (e.g. we don’t know what Qyburn does to his victims). In the show they’ve had Sansa apologize to each and everyone of her abusers: Tyrion, Sandor, even for show-invention Ramsay, and thank G-d there was no scene with Cersei. As I said, when de-characterization is so advanced, these things are to be expected.
    But in the books there’s scenes of quiet resistance to the cruelty of Westeros in almost every chapter.

    While I don’t think every action of mercy or compassion is doomed to be punished (some definitely are) and I think some of these actions have important gains, I would say every decision comes at a cost — which may make things pretty bleak in the books as well.

    But what GRRM views as bleak vs. what we view as bleak may differ.

    Some comments on this paragraph:

    I think Theon’s torture is more than just about recalling it in memory, he has become completely lost to the pain of it by becoming Reek.

    What do you mean by the show having Sansa apologize to each and every one of her abusers? I don’t recall Sansa apologizing to either Ramsay or Littlefinger when she was out of their power, she decided both their deaths.

    Ned took baby Jon in, while he could have given him to some farmer’s family to raise, or even leave behind the Wall to be raised by the wildlings.

    I recall this being a topic of debate — in some ways yes, it was good for Jon. He got to know one side of his blood family, most of whom he had good relationships with. On the flip side, he was exposed to Catelyn’s disdain, which impacted how Sansa treated and viewed Jon — and these are both sources of hurt for Jon (with Catelyn, it’s far more so). There is discussion over whether it would be kinder for Ned to keep him and raise him as a bastard, or sent to foster with another family.

    Ned raising Jon himself and as a bastard came with quite a bit of pain of its own. In addition to the deep stigma surrounding bastardy, Jon had to be raised without ever knowing the truth of who his mother was, something he yearns for and something that is very significant in Westeros. And ironically, Jon being raised as a bastard is the very thing that saves him and keeps him off society’s radar, which helps hide him. But it comes with a lasting impact for better (better enabling Jon to sympathize with other outsiders) and for worse (his own limitations in society, how he’s treated by society, how he views himself).

    Jon being raised by another family, like in a fostering situation, may have been the kinder fate in some ways — namely, Jon wouldn’t have to deal with Catelyn’s disdain and the pain that brought on. His siblings had a mother but his siblings’ mother hated him because of his bastardy. He’d miss out on the good relationships he had with his siblings, with Arya and Robb especially, and knowing his blood family. At the same time, this doesn’t mean Jon could not have also developed other significant relationships with the family he was being fostered by — and Ned could still see him.

    However, I can see why Ned would want to keep Jon close as the only son of his sister, a son who he knew Robert wanted dead.

    Arya is the one who constantly fights against injustice in her own way.

    I don’t know if Arya’s narrative is exactly about righting injustice or this being seen as a positive. Arya’s list and her killing these people is more a coping mechanism to trauma and something that is quite damaging. It has brought Arya to some very, very dark places.

    Sansa refuses to give up on her ideals; she intervenes for Dontos knowing that it might cost her head.

    Well… I think there’s a bit more to this.

    Sansa is already having to compromise and prioritize — she’s taking part in the poisoning of her cousin (I think it’s unknowingly or at least her knowledge of what it’s doing to Robert is quite limited. However, she is warned that sweet sleep is dangerous but Sansa reflects that she and LF have larger concerns) and lying for LF to cover for him in her aunt’s death.

    Meanwhile, Dontos happened in book 2 — and Sansa did save his life which ended up saving hers. So that compassion was rewarded and did help lead to Joffrey’s death, which in turn allowed LF to smuggle her out of KL.

    At the same time, Sansa is implicated in Joffrey’s death, despite her having no aware or voluntary role in it. She’s stuck with LF (but she also may learn a useful things from LF and since the veil is now being lifted from her eyes, Sansa may have the opportunity to develop her mind and wits). Also, when she objected for Dontos, Sansa was horrified when she hears herself make her outburst and thinks that she never meant to say it — because she knows what her outburst means. And then, Sansa is forced to justify it.

    It does save Dontos’s life and her own — but I don’t think this is simply a matter of Sansa refusing to let go of her ideals. I think it’s more complicated than that.

    Jon admits the Free Folk south of the Wall to save them and swaps the babies to guard them from Melisandre’s fire. Sam is the one who is supposedly a craven, and yet he is singularly brave when he has to be and saves Gilly and her baby. Daenerys does save the slaves although she f*cks everything up in Essos. Brienne sticks to her code of honor even though everybody tells her she shouldn’t; she achieves things through that code and sets the example for Jamie.

    These too come with consequences (as you pointed out with Dany). While Jon’s baby swap saves two kids, it may result in Shireen getting fried and it leaves Gilly with the torment of being without her baby. Sam still finds himself afraid and working on his own courage is a constant challenge, he still has no belief in himself. While Brienne sets a compelling example for Jaime, it may ultimately not be enough.

    There are areas of hope here and there, I don’t think all compassion and mercy is doomed — but I do think it all comes with a price of sorts.

    The fates for some of the characters themselves might be sad (I think Jon was always set up to have a sad fate) but perhaps not for all. What may be bitter to some readers may not be GRRM’s idea of bitter — maybe the sweet comes from the hope for a better future for the realm.

  497. Efi: I think part of the bleakness that GoT has left us with upon the series finale is due to the de-characterization of the book characters. I don’t confuse the TV series with the book anymore therefore I believe that I can appreciate both for what they were. While the producers tried to keep close to the book and inserted things that can only come from the book (i.e. “hold the door”, Aegon’s dagger, Bran king, etc) they chose a much simpler narrative especially in season 8 (I still think season 7 was too complicated) and tried to depict on screen a classic but never failing good vs evil trope, which, however, in this case did fail, mostly because it wasn’t the story they were telling from the beginning anyway.

    Tyrion is the criminal that he is in the books, so how is he allowed to serve community service and Jon Snow, the “hero” (disputed) of the show is condemned to exile because he killed the invader with the nukes? Well, Cersei’s fate was dictated by the elimination of the FAegon-Dorne and Euron plot from the books; Tyrion’s was dictated by their (and the audience’s) preference for this character and PD in particular, and by the fact that his de-characterization was too far off to change suddenly in season 8. Jon’s was dictated by the “epic romance” which they tried to show because the audience was expecting it. Surely you can’t have the one who murdered the audience’s beloved heroine, the face on which the show built all its campaigns end up in any place other than exile! He needs to be punished for what he did (killing Daenerys; the genocide of KL doesn’t come into question with regard to his punishment).

    I had forgotten to comment on other aspects of this. While I think the elimination of YG certain had an impact, most certainly in Cersei’s storyline, I don’t think some of these things were done just for the audience’s and D&D’s sake (Tyrion’s fate, J/D’s relationship). These things may very well happen in the books and I’m inclined to believe they are (I remember that Tensor and I discussed a possible scenario for Tyrion becoming hand in the books about three months back) but perhaps they may come about differently.

    Just as Bran becoming king in the finale didn’t really make sense (on the basis of who has the “better story”) and I’d argue the same for Sansa being granted Northern independence because she asked — while the other kingdoms are cool being the 6K (including the Iron Islands, who Yara negotiated independence for with Dany) — Tyrion becoming hand may also make better sense in the books. I think it largely depends on how it’s done and why — and the story leading up to it.

    Because I do find Tyrion becoming Hand in the show weird — and perhaps more so, that Greyworm is willing to accept this. If Tyrion’s not such a terrible Hand in the books, maybe Bran can make some real use of him — even if Tyrion hasn’t been exactly fighting on the side of the light and has done some terrible things. As monarch, Bran can decide the punishments — and maybe it’s not a matter of deserving but of practicality. Exiling Jon may be the only way to secure peace (as Feldman makes a case for being set up by the books here). Tyrion as Hand may provide use to King Bran if Tyrion is still able to maintain his intellectual sharpness (and I expect this will be the case for book!Tyrion) while also serving as a true punishment if Tyrion maintains his hatred for the realm… while being able to keep Tyrion close and contained (“keep your enemies close…”).

    I don’t know. It depends on how GRRM sets it up.

    BTW, I’m sorry to hear you’re still feverish 🙁

  498. Adrianacandle,

    Typo!

    *I think Olly dealing the killing blow is *more than Olly being a kid. I think that was about adding ambiguity to the situation at hand.

  499. Adrianacandle,

    “…I mean, the monarch decides the punishment, as Bran did in the dragonpit scene after he was elected and I’d say Jon being punished for queenslaying and oathbreaking makes sense since it’s been established those are two major crimes in Westeros.”

    How did Jaime get a free pass for kingslaying and oath breaking? Surely, just getting derogatory nicknames wasn’t “punishment.”

    Did King Robert pardon Jaime? If so, why couldn’t King Bran the Broken Modem pardon Jon…perhaps after the Unsullied and Dothraki have left town?

  500. Adrianacandle,

    …”I think Jon having to kill a Northerner to stop him from raping a woman was to show the realities of a sack and that the Northerners are subject to the same impulses for brutality as other soldiers.”

    Right! And I thought the “same impulses for brutality” was a callback to Brienne killing Northern soldiers (in S2 or S3) who had brutally hanged or otherwise murdered tavern girls.

  501. Ten Bears: Did King Robert pardon Jaime? If so, why couldn’t King Bran the Broken Modem pardon Jon…perhaps after the Unsullied and Dothraki have left town?

    Yes, Robert pardoned Jaime — and Bran exiled Jon as a compromise between Jon’s supporters and Dany’s supporters (like Greyworm). It’s up to the monarch at that time and if Bran wants to keep the peace, I think it’s best he keep the exile in place. Dany still has supporters among the Westerosi, as demonstrated by Yara. They may have a problem with Bran revoking Jon’s exile — even if Greyworm never finds out (and Greyworm finding out and returning because Bran broke this compromise would be a risk).

    Plus, when Robert pardoned Jaime and Jaime remained among Westerosi society, the scorn he received from the Westerosi society due to his kingslaying (even though they all hated Aerys and knew how terrible he was, it’s still a stigmatized crime and a severe crime in Westeros, like breaking sacred guest right) — this is what started his corruption. From this point onward, due in large part to the treatment he received afterward, Jaime became darker and darker until meeting Brienne.

  502. Adrianacandle,

    ”… Jon being raised by another family, like in a fostering situation, may have been the kinder fate in some ways — namely, Jon wouldn’t have to deal with Catelyn’s disdain and the pain that brought on. His siblings had a mother but his siblings’ mother hated him because of his bastardy. He’d miss out on the good relationships he had with his siblings, with Arya and Robb especially, and knowing his blood family.”

    Good question you raised: Why didn’t Ned leave Baby Jon with some other trustworthy family, and simply tell them, e.g., that the infant was a war orphan he promised his dying mother he’d protect? (Not untrue… just omit the part about the dying mom’s identity.) Why not have someone like Howland Reed raise Jon? Or even a local Northern family near WF (“Winter Town”?) so Ned could keep an eye on him?

    As you noted, Ned subjected himself and his family to a whole lot of blowback by bringing home a “bastard.” Jon himself suffered unnecessarily because of his mere presence in WF as Ned’s supposed illegitimate son.

    What advantage was there to be raised as “The Bastard of Winterfell” or “Ned Stark’s Bastard” vs. Jonny the Orphan Boy, or even Joe Shmo, Mikken’s apprentice? (He could’ve hung around WF’s forges without incurring Catelyn’s hate.)

  503. Ten Bears: Good question you raised: Why didn’t Ned leave Baby Jon with some other trustworthy family, and simply tell them, e.g., that the infant was a war orphan he promised his dying mother he’d protect? (Not untrue… just omit the part about the dying mom’s identity.) Why not have someone like Howland Reed raise Jon? Or even a local Northern family near WF (“Winter Town”?) so Ned could keep an eye on him?

    As you noted, Ned subjected himself and his family to a whole lot of blowback by bringing home a “bastard.” Jon himself suffered unnecessarily because of his mere presence in WF as Ned’s supposed illegitimate son.

    What advantage was there to be raised as “The Bastard of Winterfell” or “Ned Stark’s Bastard” vs. Jonny the Orphan Boy, or even Joe Shmo, Mikken’s apprentice? (He could’ve hung around WF’s forges without incurring Catelyn’s hate.)

    Those are good questions that I don’t really have an answer for — and they’re ones I’ve seen debated in the ASOIAF fandom over and over ever since I started looking things up in 2011/2012, with some raising the points you’ve raised here. I’d imagine it would be because Ned would want to keep his sister’s so close, that he felt an emotional need to raise Lyanna’s child himself as his son, as Jon was the only part of Lyanna left. Perhaps it’s because Ned felt uneasy about transferring the falsehood of Jon’s parentage to another, feeling it’s best he take on the lie himself since he’s the one who promised Lyanna.

    I’d go on but it’s my birthday today ( 🙁 ) and I’m being called to the car for a road trip but I’ll try to log on in the meanwhile while on the road 🙂

  504. Adrianacandle,

    ”I think Olly was meant to add some sympathy for the mutineering side when he killed Jon — so the mutineers don’t quite come off as so horrible (although, I’d argue — per my responses above — that the mutineers’ reasons fare far better in the books since in the show, Alliser allows Jon and the wildlings to pass… only to lead a mutiny in killing him for it the next day). I think Olly dealing the killing blow is about Olly being a kid. I think that was about adding ambiguity to the situation at hand.”

    If adding Olly was intended to engender sympathy, that failed spectacularly. See fandom’s collective “F*ck Olly” response and celebratory memes of blue-faced Dead Olly.

  505. Ten Bears: If adding Olly was intended to engender sympathy, that failed spectacularly. See fandom’s collective “F*ck Olly” response and celebratory memes of blue-faced Dead Olly.

    True but there are certainly Olly Defenders out there, I’ve seen quite a few of them…

    However, I think D&D have talked about sympathetic motives for Olly’s actions. I’ll pull up the interview where I think I’m remembering that from later today because I’m just about out the door, waiting for the car now. I think it might be the Inside the Episode for 5×10?

  506. Adrianacandle,

    Not sure what showrunners said about Olly in Inside the Episode. However, if they’d shown Olly on the gallows crying or showing some remorse – instead of sneering and scowling at Jon – it might have evoked sympathy.

    (I doubt Jon would’ve gone through with hanging Olly if the little Mini-Thorne had started blubbering…)

  507. Ten Bears:
    Adrianacandle,

    Not sure what showrunners said about Olly in Inside the Episode. However, if they’d shown Olly on the gallows crying or showing some remorse – instead of sneering and scowling at Jon – it might have evoked sympathy.

    (I doubt Jon would’ve gone through with hanging Olly if the little Mini-Thorne had started blubbering…)

    Yeah… Olly seemed sad in 5×10… but definitely less so in 6×03 since his face was pretty much like you described.

  508. Adrianacandle,

    ”The fates for some of the characters themselves might be sad (I think Jon was always set up to have a sad fate) but perhaps not for all…”

    As for Jon, I can envision GRRM “holding” him to his NW vows, and ending (like the show) with Jon exiled back to the Wall. After all, Jon did pledge his life to the NW. Resurrection shouldn’t release him from those vows, any more than the defeat of the WWs should release any of the other Brothers.

    What I’d be curious about is how Big G handles the secret of Jon’s Targ parentage. On the show, it seemed that was swept under the rug: At the S8e6 dragonpit summit neither Tyrion nor anyone else mentioned Jon aka Aegon as a candidate* (understandable) and even Arya referred to Jon as “my brother” when telling Yara to shut the f*ck up about executing him.
    * Which reminds me: How did the Hero of WF & Savior of the World not get any consideration for having “the best story”?

    Anyway, I would have to think G will make more of Jon’s parentage, after going through so much trouble to set up its importance in the books. Too bad we may never find out. (Does anyone really think ADOS will ever be published?)

  509. Ten Bears,

    As for Jon, I can envision GRRM “holding” him to his NW vows, and ending (like the show) with Jon exiled back to the Wall. After all, Jon did pledge his life to the NW. Resurrection shouldn’t release him from those vows, any more than the defeat of the WWs should release any of the other Brothers.

    Yeah, I’d think so too. Personally, I think Jon’s purpose is ultimately as a shield rather than as a king. The vows repeat quite a few times in Jon’s chapters, particularly, “I am the shield (or sword) that guards the realms of realm,” and I think it makes sense for this to be Jon’s fate. For me, this would fit thematically.

    What I’d be curious about is how Big G handles the secret of Jon’s Targ parentage. On the show, it seemed that was swept under the rug: At the S8e6 dragonpit summit neither Tyrion nor anyone else mentioned Jon aka Aegon as a candidate* (understandable) and even Arya referred to Jon as “my brother” when telling Yara to shut the f*ck up about executing him.

    For me, I suspect the importance of Jon’s parentage may tie more to the mystical/magical elements rather than the political — and I think that Jon being this hidden heir to the Targaryen dynasty (although, I wouldn’t say Jon is heir to the throne since the throne is now a Baratheon birthright) could be something explored in-universe as a consequence of circumstances that would occur in real-life (in a society without actual DNA testing). Rather than it being a Return of the King situation in which people just believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son with not much being able to corroborate it other than maybe somebody’s word (which I don’t think is enough…), I don’t think it will be something that people will readily buy in-universe. I think this is a scenario in which Jon will continue to be known as a bastard because that’s what people were told and believe — in contrast to Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen who are believed to be trueborn Baratheon royalty when in reality, they were bastard Lannister kids.

    In the absence of “proof” (the visual “DNA” tests, it being well-known that Lyanna married Rhaegar and together, they had a Stark-looking child who’d be the same age as Jon), I think R+L=J would be a hard-sell. While Jon doesn’t exactly fit with the Starks either, it’s emphasized how he looks like Ned and has the Stark look — he looks like Ned Stark’s bastard son. Plus, there is rampant suspicion and prejudice against bastards. If the Westerosi at large know Jon at all, it’s for being the bastard son of Ned Stark. Him being claimed as a trueborn Targaryen prince could look like a wanton, immoral bastard’s attempt to usurp a trueborn’s claim (Daenerys’s or even Young Griff’s if he is accepted as trueborn) — per their prejudices of bastard born children and one of the primary fears against bastardy.

    In contrast, Young Griff has the the Targaryen look, is the right age of Elia’s Aegon, is claiming to be somebody who is well known to have existed, was raised to rule, and could be somebody Dorne wants to believe in since Young Griff, as Aegon, would be Elia’s son (and Dorne does want the Lannisters off the throne). So I think Young Griff’s story, even if it is a falsehood, would be easier to buy in-universe.

    So in essence, I think Jon is a hidden prince — but a hidden prince without proof, who was raised as a bastard, was believed to be a bastard, but was never a bastard. Meanwhile, actual bastards were believed to be royalty — because people believe what they see and what seems real. I think there’s a sort of irony and sad unfairness to this (although, it’s not like sitting on the throne is the safest job in the world either).

    And I think Jon’s parentage has more to do with mystical/magical elements in the story.

    * Which reminds me: How did the Hero of WF & Savior of the World not get any consideration for having “the best story”?

    Well, to be fair, everybody there has a better story than Bran 😉

  510. Adrianacandle,

    “this is what started his corruption”

    No, this isn’t what started Jamie’s corruption. Jamie’s corruption was Cersei; that’s very clear in the books, that’s what he’s thinking. When Tywin took Cersei to Kings Landing to be close to Rhaegar, Cersei called Jamie and asked him to become kingsguard, for being close to her. They met at an inn in KL and they’ve had s*x (potentially for the first time). She said to him that Tywin wouldn’t openly object, because the king would request Jamie as kingsguard -she’d make sure that Aerys did that.
    And so it was. Jamie was raised a kingsguard at Harrenhall (having been previously raised a knight by Ser Arthur Dayne). Immediately after raising him, Aerys sent him to Kings Landing, to humiliate him (all knights and lords were at Harrenhall along the king and prince Rhaegar). Thus Aerys -the spiteful prick that he was- took away from Tywin his heir. Tywin resigned from office and returned with Cersei to Casterly Rock. Jamie got stuck in KL, which means that he was basically alone when the war broke out. Soon after Harrenhall Rhaegar “abducted” Lyanna.

    Cersei was responsible for Jamie’s corruption. Had she not had s*ex with him, manipulating with it, Jamie wouldn’t have been in that position, wouldn’t have unwittingly participated in his family’s humiliation by Aerys. She’s a stupid bitch.

    I also don’t think that in the books Daenerys will have any support from the Westerosi apart from the North. Asha and Theon shall be on her side only because of the North, not on their own. I think that’s clear the way ADWD ended.

  511. Ten Bears,

    “Which reminds me: How did the Hero of WF & Savior of the World not get any consideration for having “the best story”?”

    My estimate is they didn’t know what to do with him, because no matter how one sees it, it doesn’t make sense that only Tyrion was brought to the trial for abandoning Daenerys (not even for inciting murder) while the one who actually did kill her wasn’t called to answer for his crime. It was such a huge inconsistency which betrays their intention to sweep Jon under the rug as swiftly as possibly, as if he had been dirt the whole time. If there’s anything that f*cks up the finale, it’s this imo.

  512. Ten Bears,

    Update: if they had brought him to trial, then someone would have brought up who he was. Sansa? Why did she spill the beans if not for that? And then they’d have to address the issue of his parentage, which they didn’t want to do, because how else would they send him to exile if that was discussed there? They’d have to address the issue that Jon is not a monster for killing a monster. Horribly inconvenient, horribly!

  513. Ten Bears,
    Adrianacandle,

    What I’d be curious about is how Big G handles the secret of Jon’s Targ parentage. On the show, it seemed that was swept under the rug:

    So in essence, I think Jon is a hidden prince — but a hidden prince without proof,

    One would think that Jon flying around on the back of a dragon during the Battle of Winterfell exposed the secret and the proof in front of the whole of Westeros, or at least in front of everyone who witnessed/fought in that battle.

    But this was also swept under the rug on the show.

  514. Efi: Happy birthday!!!!! 🎈 🎂
    You’re a nice little 🦀!!!!
    I wish you all the best, Adriana!

    Thank-you, Efi!! And I think you’re a fellow crab too, aren’t you?? 🙂 🧡💛🦀🧡💛

    (Btw, you mentioned having curly hair, right? Have you ever used a Denman brush? If so, how did you find it? On the curly hair chart, I have 2a hair — it’s long, blonde, has a fine texture, and wave — and I’m hoping the Denman brush will accentuate the wave and define it rather than brushing it out into half-waves)

  515. Jai: One would think that Jon flying around on the back of a dragon during the Battle of Winterfell exposed the secret and the proof in front of the whole of Westeros, or at least in front of everyone who witnessed/fought in that battle.

    But this was also swept under the rug on the show.

    I believe it’s noted in ASOIAF that non-Targaryens can also fly dragons so this isn’t exactly proof, I wouldn’t think.

    They tended to be Valyrian but didn’t have to be Targaryens.

  516. Efi,

    Cersei was responsible for Jamie’s corruption. Had she not had s*ex with him, manipulating with it, Jamie wouldn’t have been in that position, wouldn’t have unwittingly participated in his family’s humiliation by Aerys. She’s a stupid bitch.

    Well, Cersei may have been a contributing factor leading up to events but I don’t think this was the catalyst for the change in Jaime. It seems that catalyst was the scorn he has — and continues to receive from society — for killing Aerys, transforming him into the person he’d become when pushing Bran out the window.

    “Aerys . . .” Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. “Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . .”

    “I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act. At Robert’s coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service. As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn the arse he found sitting on Robert’s throne. I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father . . . or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?” Jaime gave a drunken laugh. “Come, Lady Stark, don’t you find this all terribly amusing?”

    Jaime also bitterly reflects on how badly he’s judged for killing Aerys, by society, by Ned, by everyone.

    “Your crimes are past forgiving, Kingslayer.”

    “That name again.” Jaime twisted idly at his chains. “Why do I enrage you so? I’ve never done you harm that I know of.”

    “You’ve harmed others. Those you were sworn to protect. The weak, the innocent…”  

    “… the king?” It always came back to Aerys. “Don’t presume to judge what you do not understand, wench.”

    A gift you want desperately, wench, and can never have. “I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney melee at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me.”

    The look Brienne gave him then was full of loathing. She would gladly hack me to pieces, but for her precious vow, he reflected. Good. I’ve had enough of feeble pieties and maidens’ judgments. The wench stalked off without saying a word. Jaime curled up beneath his cloak, hoping to dream of Cersei.

    But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king’s door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well.

    When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin’s. “I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you’ll bring me his head, or you’ll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He’s gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?”

    “Rossart’s,” answered Jaime.

    Those purple eyes grew huge then, and the royal mouth drooped open in shock. He lost control of his bowels, turned, and ran for the Iron Throne. Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy. A single slash across his throat was all it took to end it. So easy, he remembered thinking. A king should die harder than this. Rossart at least had tried to make a fight of it, though if truth be told he fought like an alchemist. Queer that they never ask who killed Rossart… but of course, he was no one, lowborn, Hand for a fortnight, just another mad fancy of the Mad King.

    Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall and others of his father’s knights burst into the hall in time to see the last of it, so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame. It would be blame, he knew at once when he saw the way they looked at him… though perhaps that was fear. Lannister or no, he was one of Aerys’s seven.

    “The castle is ours, ser, and the city,” Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King’s Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin’s son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.”

    “Tell them the Mad King is dead,” he commanded. “Spare all those who yield and hold them captive.”

    “Shall I proclaim a new king as well?” Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar’s infant son Aegon, still in Maegor’s with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. “Proclaim who you bloody well like,” he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.

    You had no right to judge me either, Stark.

    In his dreams the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place.

    [After telling Brienne why he killed Aerys]

    The water had grown cool. When Jaime opened his eyes, he found himself staring at the stump of his sword hand. The hand that made me Kingslayer. The goat had robbed him of his glory and his shame, both at once. Leaving what? Who am I now?

    The wench looked ridiculous, clutching her towel to her meager teats with her thick white legs sticking out beneath. “Has my tale turned you speechless? Come, curse me or kiss me or call me a liar. Something.”

    “If this is true, how is it no one knows?”

    “The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king’s secrets. Would you have me break my oath?” Jaime laughed. “Do you think the noble Lord of Winterfell wanted to hear my feeble explanations? Such an honorable man. He only had to look at me to judge me guilty.” Jaime lurched to his feet, the water running cold down his chest. “By what right does the wolf judge the lion? By what right?” A violent shiver took him, and he smashed his stump against the rim of the tub as he tried to climb out.  

    Pain shuddered through him… and suddenly the bathhouse was spinning. Brienne caught him before he could fall. Her arm was all gooseflesh, clammy and chilled, but she was strong, and gentler than he would have thought. Gentler than Cersei, he thought as she helped him from the tub, his legs wobbly as a limp cock. “Guards!” he heard the wench shout. “The Kingslayer!”

    Jaime, he thought, my name is Jaime.

    Also, I believe Aerys had Jaime join the Kingsguard as a slight to Tywin as things between those two were worsening more and more, especially since Aerys rejected Tywin’s marriage proposal between Rhaegar and Cersei with Aerys reminding Tywin that he was only a servant.

    ______

    I also don’t think that in the books Daenerys will have any support from the Westerosi apart from the North. Asha and Theon shall be on her side only because of the North, not on their own. I think that’s clear the way ADWD ended.

    I think it’s true Daenerys will probably no longer have the support of Dorne, not after what happened with Quentyn, Rhaegal, and Viserion after Drogon took off with Daenerys and if they believe Young Griff to be Elia’s son. I don’t know who Asha and Theon will be supporting though. I’m not sure Asha will support the North and I’m divided on Theon — I’ll have to refresh myself on Theon.

  517. Efi,

    My estimate is they didn’t know what to do with him, because no matter how one sees him, it doesn’t make sense that only Tyrion was brought to the trial for abandoning Daenerys (not even for inciting murder) while the one who actually did kill her wasn’t called to answer for his crime. It was such a huge inconsistency which betrays their intention to sweep Jon under the rug as swiftly as possibly, as if he had been dirt the whole time. If there’s anything that f*cks up the finale, it’s this imo.

    I think Tyrion was being tried for treason (I don’t know if they’d know about Tyrion trying to convince Jon to kill Dany). However, where I think this part had difficulty was Greyworm’s decision to imprison Jon rather than killing Jon on the spot.

    I also don’t think Jon’s presence would ultimately change any decision of the council. I doubt Jon would argue on his own behalf and Greyworm and Dany’s other supporters (including Yara) wanted Jon dead, which comes into conflict with Sansa and Arya’s desire to free their brother. Westeros didn’t want more war. Exiling Jon as a compromise would be in the best interest for all as it’d avoid war.

    Plus, I doubt Jon would want much to do with Westeros or its kingdoms at this point and he’d be exposed to perhaps even worse scorn than Jaime received since Jon is believed to be a bastard to boot (and if he’s believed to be a Targaryen? He gets the stigma of Targ madness fear and the kinslaying label too).

    Update: if they had brought him to trial, then someone would have brought up who he was. Sansa? Why did she spill the beans if not for that? And then they’d have to address the issue of his parentage, which they didn’t want to do, because how else would they send him to exile if that was discussed there? They’d have to address the issue that Jon is not a monster for killing a monster. Horribly inconvenient, horribly!

    I doubt Jon’s parentage would change the outcome or the need for peace (Dany still had supporters in Westeros and it’s not like Greyworm would care) — nor would this change the severity of Jon’s crimes — oathbreaking and kingslaying. Sansa wanted Jon on the throne over Dany but at the time she was pushing for Jon’s claim, Jon hadn’t committed kingslaying, oathbreaking, or kinslaying, which would change things quite a bit in Westerosi society given how they view these acts.

    And if they somehow believed Jon was who Sansa was saying he was — kinslaying. That’s a triple whammy — not to mention how they’d view Targaryens in light of what Dany did. And they all know what Daenerys did — they saw it, they heard her speech. It didn’t change their stance (nor did it change Yara’s or Greyworm’s). I don’t think the truth of Jon’s parentage wouldn’t change Westeros’s view of him. It looks like it’d worsen things quite a bit for Jon because it adds another severe crime (kingslaying) to what Jon did and the stigma of Targaryen madness.

  518. Adrianacandle,

    Typo!

    *It looks like it’d worsen things quite a bit for Jon because it adds another severe crime (*kinslaying) to what Jon did and the stigma of Targaryen madness.

  519. Adriana, I’m late for your actual birthday so consider this as one of those belated birthday cards (well we have such things in the UK). TB seems to like some 1980s novelty type records so here is ‘Happy Birthday’ from ‘Altered Images’ circa 1981. https://youtu.be/xP5C6yW9XVs The singer Clare Grogan was also an actress – I think she still does some acting intermittently and has also been a presenter.

  520. Efi,

    Ummm… “The Hero of WF and Savior of the World” didn’t refer to Jon.

    #ASNAWPTWP
    👸🏻🔪🧟‍♂️

  521. Efi,

    ….”no matter how one sees it, it doesn’t make sense that only Tyrion was brought to the trial for abandoning Daenerys (not even for inciting murder) while the one who actually did kill her wasn’t called to answer for his crime. It was such a huge inconsistency which betrays their intention to sweep Jon under the rug as swiftly as possibly, as if he had been dirt the whole time. If there’s anything that f*cks up the finale, it’s this imo.”

    That is true.

  522. One last thing about Jon’s fate.
    The song that characterizes ASoIaF the most is Jenny of Oldstones. Which is why this song was heard in 8.2. There’s lots of songs in the book, all with Martin’s verses; the Reynes of Castamere, The Bear and the Maiden fair, the Dornishman’s wife, and more (there’s a nice one that characterizes Arya’s relationship with Gentry).
    So far, before 8.2. that is, we didn’t know the verses of Jenny of Oldstones (they’re saved for later in the book, imo to be sung by Sansa to Jon). As they are, the verses are about Jenny’s grief, since she experienced the tragedy of Summerhall. But what was the story?
    Well, the prince of Dragonstone, therefore heir to the throne, Duncan Targaryen, fell in love with a simple girl, Jenny of Oldstones. She came from Oldstones, an abandoned castle in the Riverlands which had once been the seat of house Mudd, where kings of the Riverlands are buried.
    So Duncan’s dilemma was: dragons or dragonflies? A prince or a man in love?
    Duncan resigned from his claim to the throne of Westeros for being with the one he loved; hence he became known as prince of dragonflies. Singificantly, Duncan wasn’t the classic silver-haired Targ prince; he was dark-haired, just like Jon.
    Also significantly, when Catelyn and Robb discuss Robb’s will by which he legitimizes Jon as a Stark and makes him his heir, they are standing in the castle of Oldstones, over the sculptures of the old kings.

    To me the connection is blatant. Jon will be offered the throne, but he will refuse. Refusing his rights in favor of his siblings is Jon’s thing in the book. He goes to the Watch to be out of Catelyn’s way in book 1. He refuses Stannis’ offer in ASoS/ADWD. He will be made king in the North (the show confirmed that) but he will abdicate in favor of Bran. Later he will be offered the throne of Westeros, and he will refuse. He will propose Bran as king of Westeros, as Aemon did with his brother Egg. I don’t think that he’ll be condemned to the Watch once again; it would pointless, boring repetition, and bad literature at that. He could take up reforming it, with the specific task to repopulate the Gifts.
    And his reasoning for refusing the throne shall not be that he has killed Daenerys, or that he’ll believe he’s unworthy or sth equally silly, but that he will be in love. Yes, with Sansa, who will be in the North. Sansa is the “snow maiden”. She’s the girl from the Riverlands, since her mother was from the Riverlands.
    See how it all fits?
    It’s the same ending, only it’s much sweeter and makes much more sense.
    Sansa, like Jenny, will be left in WF, mourning for her Ghosts (her mother, father, brother or brothers). Not just any Ghost; one in particular, but unlike Jenny, Ghost and his master will be close, perhaps as close as Queenscrown (nine days away from WF).

    You may doubt me. But remember who was wearing a dragonfly as a pendant in the show. Oh, yes, Sansa, from season 2 to season 4, until she escaped.

    The possibility that Jon will be ruling the North still exists. Aemon went to the Watch for not being used against his brother, but someone, somewhere (perhaps in Sam’s chapters?) argues that they shouldn’t have let him go, because after all Aerys came from Aegon’s descendants. At this point the political correlation becomes very complicated. On the one hand, Jon will not be able to rule the North without being married to Sansa, because he has no claim to it as a Targaryen -but on the other, he does have a claim as a legitimized (by Robb) heir (as pointed out by Catelyn). In both cases a marriage with Sansa becomes politically imperative.
    If Martin goes with the “political threat” factor then he’ll have to park Jon over to the Watch again, and Jon will do this willingly, because he will have many reasons (loving Bran and loving Sansa in particular, to be close to her). As I said though, I don’t see how this is not boring repetition. Jon sacrificing himself for duty -again- so what’s new?
    But before that the North will have been proclaimed independent. It fits, that the North, subjugated by an Aegon, is freed by an Aegon again.

    The most serious problem I see with this theoretical reconstruction is that it doesn’t fulfill Sansa’s fate. Sansa is not foreshadowed to be queen in her own right, but queen, married to a king. She is said that she will present her son to the king in the throne room. If Sansa is alone as queen, then this part will remain unfulfilled. As queen she could have a consort and the consort shall not necessarily be king, but if she is in love with Jon condemned to the Watch again, she will never marry and her children will be bastards –her first WoW chapter is about her bastards and she is supposed to escape from that destiny that LF builds for her.

    So, bottom line, if we accept that Jenny of Oldstones is the song that characterizes ASoIaF, the destiny it reveals is one that the characters are running to, or running from? Will there be an abdication and a great catastrophe, or will there be a great catastrophe and a redemption via service like the show hinted at? Will Jon lay down his claim to the South, or will he not? Will he -once and for all- lay down his claim to the North, or will he marry Sansa to become the king he is foreshadowed to be?
    The first options both are foreshadowed in Aemon’s and Duncan’s choices, but the last option would be a subversion in-universe.
    That’s a tough call, but it depends on Martin to chose the more logical path to the ending. All I see from a literary analysis point of view is that without a mirroring of the story of Jenny of Oldstones, the ending becomes only bitter, very bitter.

  523. Adrianacandle,

    Yes, I’ve had my birthday last week.
    Returning from one -of the many- doctors last Thursday I stepped by a patisserie shop while being 50-50 on buying. I was thinking “not a black forest, not this time”. Candles: maybe 14?
    But I did buy a black forrest cake in the end, one with a huge flower made of chocolate on top, because I fell in love with how it looked.
    I invited a couple of friends over to cheer me up. Didn’t blow up any candles in the end (I hate that), but it was funny. One of them lamented (or cheered?) how I have no wrinkles in my age.
    “Whaaaat? Why would I have wrinkes? I’m only fourteen!”

    And no, my hair is absolutely, totally straight, as straight as it can be (sniff!). And it’s dark blond (as the hairdressers say), or brown (as I say). Opinions are divided on this. Of course now it’s blonde because I have it dyed, but I never stick to blond for too long.

  524. Adrianacandle,

    I believe it’s noted in ASOIAF that non-Targaryens can also fly dragons so this isn’t exactly proof, I wouldn’t think.

    They tended to be Valyrian but didn’t have to be Targaryens.

    According to ASOIAF and Fire & Blood, the only people who have historically been able to fly dragons (or who the dragons have allowed to fly them) have been people with Valyrian heritage. So, Jon flying a dragon in front of thousands of witnesses at the Battle of Winterfell publicly exposes the fact that his own ancestry is at least partly Valryian. And for the past few centuries on Westeros, the only group that flies dragons and has Valyrian ancestry is a certain royal dynasty.

    So it would be very easy for witnesses to put 2 and 2 together, even if their conclusion is “The only way that can happen is for the answer to probably be 4” rather than “This is definitive proof that the answer is 4”.

  525. Efi,

    The song that characterizes ASoIaF the most is Jenny of Oldstones. Which is why this song was heard in 8.2. There’s lots of songs in the book, all with Martin’s verses; the Reynes of Castamere, The Bear and the Maiden fair, the Dornishman’s wife, and more (there’s a nice one that characterizes Arya’s relationship with Gentry).
    So far, before 8.2. that is, we didn’t know the verses of Jenny of Oldstones (they’re saved for later in the book, imo to be sung by Sansa to Jon).

    I don’t think I’d agree Jenny of Oldstones is the song that characterizes ASOIAF the most — it really only addresses one element in the story: tragic love and an idealized form of it. As you noted, there are so many songs… which makes sense, because there are so many elements. But why would Sansa be singing these verses to Jon? (Edit: Nevermind, just looked below and saw you believe Jon and Sansa will fall in love).

    And I think these additional verses were written by D&D, not GRRM.

    I don’t know if I’d quite agree with the connections you’re making since there are quite a few dark-haired people in Westeros and l

    So Duncan’s dilemma was: dragons or dragonflies? A prince or a man in love?
    Duncan resigned from his claim to the throne of Westeros for being with the one he loved; hence he became known as prince of dragonflies. Singificantly, Duncan wasn’t the classic silver-haired Targ prince; he was dark-haired, just like Jon.

    I don’t think this is quite the agonizing struggle GRRM is going for with Jon’s final choice. This sounds more like a romanticized, idealized struggle — and a struggle Jon has faced before with Ygritte (but not so romanticized because she shoots a few arrows into him and he must face the prospect of killing her in battle, carrying the weight of her death afterward).

    Plus… dark hair isn’t uncommon in Westeros 😉

    I don’t see much tying Jenny to Sansa and Duncan to Jon. I don’t think Catelyn and Robb’s location when discussing Robb’s will is enough…

    And technically, Jon isn’t exactly a prince since the Baratheons overthrew the Targaryens.

    To me the connection is blatant. Jon will be offered the throne, but he will refuse. Refusing his rights in favor of his siblings is Jon’s thing in the book. He goes to the Watch to be out of Catelyn’s way in book 1.

    Well, Jon doesn’t go to the Watch for this reason. He had limited options for advancement in Westeros, he wanted to prove himself by his own merit, and wanted to earn his own sort of honor. Jon doesn’t mention Catelyn at all as a reason.

    He refuses Stannis’ offer in ASoS/ADWD. He will be made king in the North (the show confirmed that) but he will abdicate in favor of Bran. Later he will be offered the throne of Westeros, and he will refuse.

    As you had once said, something happening in the show isn’t confirmation it’ll happen in the books. I’m divided on whether or not Jon does become KiTN in the books — Linda Antonsson seems to think this won’t happen and I’m not so certain myself.

    He will propose Bran as king of Westeros, as Aemon did with his brother Egg. I don’t think that he’ll be condemned to the Watch once again; it would pointless, boring repetition, and bad literature at that.

    I don’t think it would be pointless or boring repetition. Jon wasn’t condemned to the Watch in the first place for a crime. Jon had joined the Watch in part because he wanted a place to rise and prove himself, to be a hero. And also in part due to the urgency of the situation Ned found himself in, having to make fast decisions for all his kids since Catelyn would not have Jon in Winterfell.

    But, kind of like how I questioned things with Tyrion in the dragonpit scene, I don’t know why Jon would get a say in deciding Westeros’s ruler if he kills Dany. At best, Jon would be a prisoner. I did find it odd that Tyrion was the one leading the Dragonpit council meeting and proposing Bran when he was there for his punishment to be decided.

    And his reasoning for refusing the throne shall not be that he has killed Daenerys, or that he’ll believe he’s unworthy or sth equally silly, but that he will be in love. Yes, with Sansa, who will be in the North. Sansa is the “snow maiden”. She’s the girl from the Riverlands, since her mother was from the Riverlands.
    See how it all fits?

    I don’t really see any basis for Jonsa (Jon/Sansa falling in love) in the books. I also don’t remember Sansa ever being referred to a “snow maiden” and I’m unsure of the connection you’re drawing here. I don’t really see how this all fits?

    But I don’t know why Jon would even have the throne (and therefore, the decision to abdicate) after killing Dany:

    1) There’s no convincing evidence he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. He has the Stark look, looks like Ned, people believe him to be Ned Stark’s bastard son, and bares no Targaryen features. There’s no record of a third child even having existed for Rhaegar.

    2) Rampant suspicion and prejudice against bastards. If the Westerosi at large know Jon at all, it’s for being the bastard son of Ned Stark. Jon being claimed as a trueborn Targaryen prince could look like an immoral bastard’s attempt to usurp a trueborn’s claim — one of the primary fears against bastardly.

    3) Jon doesn’t have a wonderful reputation in-universe. While Dany is feared as the Mad King’s daughter who has a legion of “savages”, Jon has earned a not-great reputation himself and is also associated with a legion of “savages”. For example, due to Jon’s bastardy and Catelyn’s mistrust for Jon, the Blackfish falsely believes that Jon conspired to take the title of Lord Commander for himself (when, actually, that was Sam’s doing while Jon was unaware). It’s not unlikely others will believe the same.

    4) It’s also known that Jon let the long hated enemy of the Westerosi — wildlings (“savages” in the eyes of the Westerosi) — through the Wall, who the Westerosi will raid and plunder their lands. Not unlike the Dothraki. Add to that, Jon married a highborn girl to a wildling. We know the truth behind these actions but the Westerosi sure don’t. It looks bad.

    5) If Jon kills Dany and he’s sworn to her, it’s kingslaying and oathbreaking. If it’s known (and believed) he’s a Targaryen too, it’s kinslaying. All are severe crimes in Westeros.

    6) If Dany torches KL and people know and believe Jon is a Targaryen too, Dany just manifested the very fears the people have of her Targaryen instability and at least some of that is probably going to transfer to Jon too.

    So I’m not sure, considering all of this, how Jon would be in a position to acquire the throne… in order to abdicate the throne. And for love of Sansa, no less.

    If he acquires a position (king) that he’d need to abdicate and it’s due to his Targaryen heritage, he’s going to need something to support this. The best support for the truth of his Targaryen heritage that I could see would come from a known Targaryen — Daenerys.

    Otherwise, if the only support is coming from Sansa or a Stark supporter, it’d look like a ploy on the part of the Starks to push one of their own onto the throne who might go berserk and kill an entire city too.

    And if Daenerys is torching KL… and if people somehow believe Jon to be a Targaryen, that stigma (which will have gained additional support) is going to likely attach to Jon too.
    [Part 1]

  526. Efi,

    It’s the same ending, only it’s much sweeter and makes much more sense.

    For Jonsa shippers, sure. But for other readers? I don’t know, dudette 😉
    I mean, Jonsa certainly has acquired a hardcore and vocal fanbase, especially since Jon and Sansa’s season 6 reunion (before this point, the Jonsa fanbase seemed pretty quiet, respectful, and discussed their theories without forcing them on others or pretending they were canon but after…? That changed. I think shipping culture is The Worst, not in small part because it produces the most horrible stans and yikes theories but that’s a rant for another day!)

    Still, it’s not exactly well-loved in the ASOIAF fandom at large. And one person’s sweet will be another person’s bitter and I don’t think GRRM is writing this story for it to feel good to us but to explore themes he feels are significant.

    And, for the reasons above, I don’t think this particular story makes a ton of sense in-universe.

    I know I’ve said this again and again but I’ll… say it again 🙂 I think Jon’s final test is killing Dany and for this reason, given how these choices keep getting harder and harder for Jon, I expect this will be Jon’s cruelest test.

    Jon already feels unworthy because of his previous oathbreaking and the hard choices he’s already had to make to protect the realm, he understands why he’s viewed the way he is, but is still willing to sacrifice his own honor to this end. I don’t think that’s going to change after committing queenslaying, oathbreaking, and kinslaying.

    Sansa, like Jenny, will be left in WF, mourning for her Ghosts (her mother, father, brother or brothers). Not just any Ghost; one in particular, but unlike Jenny, Ghost and his master will be close, perhaps as close as Queenscrown (nine days away from WF).
    You may doubt me. But remember who was wearing a dragonfly as a pendant in the show. Oh, yes, Sansa, from season 2 to season 4, until she escaped.

    Admittedly, I do find the notion of Jon and Sansa odd. They’re raised as siblings — and they aren’t shown to have any kind of special or significant connection, much less secret signs that they’ll fall in love. It’s just the connection of siblings who aren’t so close — which is realistic. GRRM inputted Sansa to create conflict in the Stark clan because everyone else was getting along too well. Not to mention Sansa isn’t even the type of woman Jon is attracted to and she was raised as his sister. Just because they aren’t close doesn’t mean Jon views her as any less of a sibling. He refers to Sansa as his sister often.

    The possibility that Jon will be ruling the North still exists. Aemon went to the Watch for not being used against his brother, but someone, somewhere (perhaps in Sam’s chapters?) argues that they shouldn’t have let him go, because after all Aerys came from Aegon’s descendants.

    I’ll have to look up this passage but I’m not quite understanding this argument?

    At this point the political correlation becomes very complicated. On the one hand, Jon will not be able to rule the North without being married to Sansa, because he has no claim to it as a Targaryen -but on the other, he does have a claim as a legitimized (by Robb) heir (as pointed out by Catelyn). In both cases a marriage with Sansa becomes politically imperative.

    I don’t know, I think this would be politically redundant. Why would Jon need Sansa in this case if he’s legitimized by Robb? Robb’s will disinherited Sansa.

    If Martin goes with the “political threat” factor then he’ll have to park Jon over to the Watch again, and Jon will do this willingly, because he will have many reasons (loving Bran and loving Sansa in particular, to be close to her).

    I’m not sure how Jon would be a political threat after killing Dany, even if Westeros somehow believed R+L=J for the reasons I mentioned above.

    There’d be many reasons for Jon to want to willingly go into exile — but I don’t think a political threat or love of Sansa would be among the driving factors . It makes sense for Bran to exile Jon after killing Dany to keep the peace. And I don’t see how Jon wouldn’t agree to this, especially after killing Dany.

    Based on what I’ve seen from the Jonsa fandom, it feels like they want this to be a story in which Jon kills the Evil Dany for his true love Sansa, giving up everything for her.

    As I said though, I don’t see how this is not boring repetition. Jon sacrificing himself for duty -again- so what’s new?

    For me, that’s not my problem with this theory as this conflict can be escalated for Jon, as it has been throughout the series. The tests get crueler and crueler.

    But with the plot you’ve outlined here, I’m not sure where the conflict is — if Dany is just a monster to Jon and he’s killing her for love, where’s the conflict, the struggle, the war in himself? I don’t think it can just be about kinslaying, oathbreaking, or kingslaying because Jon’s now already been brought to a place where he is willing to break taboo and sacrifice his own honor for the realm (and has). And when he sacrificed duty for love of family (Arya), it was a disaster. I think the conflict needs to be escalated — and personal feeling is what makes these choices especially cruel. This is why I think personal feeling needs to be involved on both sides.

    However, if Jon’s just killing Mad Dany for his true love Sansa and giving up the throne out of love for her, that doesn’t feel like an agonizing conflict. This feels like a sacrifice Jon would make gladly with very little agony.
    [Part 2]

  527. Efi,

    But before that the North will have been proclaimed independent. It fits, that the North, subjugated by an Aegon, is freed by an Aegon again.

    Or it can be freed by a Bran? It’s not even confirmed in the books that Jon’s birth name was Aegon and what if it’s Young Griff (who is claiming to be Aegon) who frees the North? 🙂

    But I’m not sure if an independent North is a book thing… given the problems I see with the practicality of Northern independence at this time.

    The most serious problem I see with this theoretical reconstruction is that it doesn’t fulfill Sansa’s fate. Sansa is not foreshadowed to be queen in her own right, but queen, married to a king. She is said that she will present her son to the king in the throne room. If Sansa is alone as queen, then this part will remain unfulfilled.

    Perhaps this isn’t Sansa’s fate — to be a king’s queen.

    If people (in-universe) expect Sansa to only be a queen because she’s married to a king, maybe Sansa becoming a queen (or leader) in her own right is playing on that expectation.

    There’d be a poetic element to Sansa becoming this queen or leader herself. Plus, that Sansa was dependent on other people to protect her — the Sansa developing in AFFC looks like one who could develop defense and advancement strategies of her own with her mind and wits. She’ll still need the assistance of others, of course, she won’t be suddenly developing outdoor survival skills overnight, but I think Sansa’s story is about taking an idealistic princess archetype and making her a leader in her story, having agency in her own fate, might be the idea. Not being required to marry if she doesn’t want to, or not having to marry somebody she is told she must — having a choice in that.

    She still has her duties, of course, but she’ll have more of a choice in how she fulfills them.

    As queen she could have a consort and the consort shall not necessarily be king, but if she is in love with Jon condemned to the Watch again, she will never marry and her children will be bastards –her first WoW chapter is about her bastards and she is supposed to escape from that destiny that LF builds for her.

    Well, as you know, marriage in these times doesn’t happen for love… so I’m not sure why this would prevent Sansa from marrying somebody else or having children if she feels it is her duty? Marrying for duty and to have heirs seems like the standard in ASOIAF, not withholding for love — especially as queen.

    I don’t think the idea of Sansa’s story that she’ll die from ennui because Jon’s not around… :/

    So, bottom line, if we accept that Jenny of Oldstones is the song that characterizes ASoIaF, the destiny it reveals is one that the characters are running to, or running from? Will there be an abdication and a great catastrophe, or will there be a great catastrophe and a redemption via service like the show hinted at? Will Jon lay down his claim to the South, or will he not? Will he -once and for all- lay down his claim to the North, or will he marry Sansa to become the king he is foreshadowed to be?

    Perhaps this song is not what characterized ASOIAF alone, particularly since there are so many songs and the story itself is so involved, complex, with many elements at play here? This song points to one element in the series: tragedy. And there’s a ton of tragedy already. But the tragedy is never quite so beautiful as the tragedy in this song. It’s bloody and gross and more complex than what a song can sing. And I don’t think ASOIAF can be chalked up to one song alone.

    I don’t even think Jon’s fate in the show is about redemption. It’s about consequences for choices that he’s made. Jon may have saved the realm but at what cost? It costs him… everything. And he knew it going in but still made that choice. As Alt Shift X once pointed, it shouldn’t be easy to do the right thing. If it’s easy, how is it important? What does it show of one’s character? Everybody can make the right choice when it’s easy. Not everyone can make the right choice when it’s impossible or even when it doesn’t feel like the right choice. Not all heroes are celebrated or sung, as Jeor once pointed out to Jon. However, that doesn’t mean there’s not mercy in this ending. Jon is away from a place that was so brutal to him, that caused so much misery, with a people who chose him — not for his name or for his blood but for his merit and what he did for them.

    The first options both are foreshadowed in Aemon’s and Duncan’s choices, but the last option would be a subversion in-universe.

    That option would feel like a Return of the King scenario, which I don’t think GRRM is going for.

    But the thing is, and I know I’m a broken record at this point, I don’t see how Jon would be in a position to abdicate at all. Aemon didn’t kill his aunt and queen to save the realm, nor did Duncan. They’re not having the crown resulted from pretty different circumstances.

  528. Jai: According to ASOIAF and Fire & Blood, the only people who have historically been able to fly dragons (or who the dragons have allowed to fly them) have been people with Valyrian heritage. So, Jon flying a dragon in front of thousands of witnesses at the Battle of Winterfell publicly exposes the fact that his own ancestry is at least partly Valryian. And for the past few centuries on Westeros, the only group that flies dragons and has Valyrian ancestry is a certain royal dynasty.

    So it would be very easy for witnesses to put 2 and 2 together, even if their conclusion is “The only way that can happen is for the answer to probably be 4” rather than “This is definitive proof that the answer is 4”.

    While all Targaryens are Valryians, not all Valryians are Targaryens. There are also non-Targ riders too and riders who don’t descend directly from Targaryens — House Baratheon, House Celtigar, House Longwaters, and House Velaryon all have Valryian blood, for instance. Even if some mix pretty regularly with Targaryens (like Velaryon), it doesn’t indicate having a Targ parent but a parent with Targ blood somewhere.

    For this reason, this in and of itself doesn’t indicate Jon having a Targaryen parent. It would indicate whoever his missing mum is would have some Valyrian blood and that could have happened in a variety of ways — like having a bit of Targaryen in her without actually being a full-blooded Targaryen like Rhaegar or Valyrian blood from another source.

    And not all the riders who have flown dragons have been Targaryens: Addam Velaryon, Aurion, Hugh Hammer, Ulf White, etc.

  529. Dame of Mercia: Adriana, I’m late for your actual birthday so consider this as one of those belated birthday cards (well we have such things in the UK). TB seems to like some 1980s novelty type records so here is ‘Happy Birthday’ from ‘Altered Images’ circa 1981. https://youtu.be/xP5C6yW9XVs The singer Clare Grogan was also an actress – I think she still does some acting intermittently and has also been a presenter.

    Thank-you so much, Dame!!! I really enjoyed seeing this video!

    I’ve only ever heard this song on Gilmore GIrls (Rory’s 16th birthday!) but I’ve never seen the source until now!

  530. Yes, I’ve had my birthday last week.

    Happy birthday!!! 😀

    Returning from one -of the many- doctors last Thursday I stepped by a patisserie shop while being 50-50 on buying. I was thinking “not a black forest, not this time”. Candles: maybe 14?
    But I did buy a black forrest cake in the end, one with a huge flower made of chocolate on top, because I fell in love with how it looked.

    Black forest cake is the best. My mum made me a rum cake cake — which is an odd choice but I liked it! I usually opt for a Dairy Queen treatsa pizza but I think my mum wanted to try something new 🙂

    Before J and A left for other parts of the world (with many of our mutual friends following suit), we used to have giant combined birthday parties — usually Harry Potter themed. We were 16-23… but they were always Harry Potter parties. One year, when The Order of the Phoenix came out (Harry Potter book 5) and a certain character died (J’s favourite), our birthday turned into a funeral for this character. Tombstone on the door, an RIP cake (that my mum was embarrassed to pick up — she didn’t understand…), black balloons, black streamers, and a very morose J.

    (While mum never understood our mourning a fictional character, my dad would. He is a Snape stan and I wish he had a tumblr to record his St. Snape the First sermons — they are hilarious and very passionate… Oh, and how he despises James, Sirius, Harry, Lily… because of how they felt about Snape ;D)

    I invited a couple of friends over to cheer me up. Didn’t blow up any candles in the end (I hate that), but it was funny. One of them lamented (or cheered?) how I have no wrinkles in my age.
    “Whaaaat? Why would I have wrinkes? I’m only fourteen!”

    XD! Maybe it’s that you’re 14…? Or maybe it’s retin-a? 😉

    And no, my hair is absolutely, totally straight, as straight as it can be (sniff!). And it’s dark blond (as the hairdressers say), or brown (as I say). Opinions are divided on this. Of course now it’s blonde because I have it dyed, but I never stick to blond for too long.

    Oh, okay! I was totally misremembering!

    I’m blonde too! I have a more golden shade of medium blonde that has a bit of red in it? It’s definitely not red though, more golden-y… but still frizzes up 🙁

  531. Efi,

    Ah, I forgot to address my last post to you! (Happy birthday again!) My last post is to you!! 😀

  532. Efi: To me the connection is blatant. Jon will be offered the throne, but he will refuse. Refusing his rights in favor of his siblings is Jon’s thing in the book. He goes to the Watch to be out of Catelyn’s way in book 1.

    I forgot to address part of this!

    Jon didn’t go to the Watch for his siblings, nor did he exactly turn down Stannis’s offer for his siblings in ASOIAF. Not that Jon has any desire whatsoever to usurp his siblings’ rights, he doesn’t, but at this time, Jon thought they were all dead and was seriously considering the offer.

    It’s the Old Gods, the weirwood, and Ghost reminding him the Old Gods (since part of the deal involves Mel burning down the weirwood) which makes Jon’s decision for him to turn down Stannis’s offer. This is what Jon can’t abide since, while not a religious nutjob, he does have a deep faith in the Old Gods (as do the wildlings).

    So I’d say it’s more than it being a matter of lawful blood inheritance, the Starks, and his siblings’ rights. It’s about Jon himself and his beliefs — apart from his siblings. This is a facet of Jon’s decision that has nothing to do with them but about the Old Gods and Jon’s observance of them.

    Plus, if Jon has killed Dany at this point, he will have known he’d have committed kinslaying — a grievous crime in the eyes of the Old Gods. I don’t think Jon will be willing to go into exile just for the sake of his siblings (I’m not sure why Jon would have to go into exile for them? If Bran is chosen king by a council of Westerosi representatives from each region, blood inheritance doesn’t matter anymore and that’s the system I think the story is meant to slowly pull away from step by step), I think it’d be for a number of reasons.

    But then again, I don’t know how or why Jon would be offered the throne… but I promise, I won’t list my reasons again in this post 🙂
    I know I’ve done that a few times already here…

    I also had this piece in my post:

    I don’t know if I’d quite agree with the connections you’re making since there are quite a few dark-haired people in Westeros and l

    This was a thought I had started but forgot to finish — but I think I put it elsewhere in my multi-parter post. Please disregard -_-

  533. Efi,

    I’m sorry! I think I misread this part (and I wanted to elaborate on some of my thoughts from above):

    Efi: So Duncan’s dilemma was: dragons or dragonflies? A prince or a man in love?
    Duncan resigned from his claim to the throne of Westeros for being with the one he loved; hence he became known as prince of dragonflies. Singificantly, Duncan wasn’t the classic silver-haired Targ prince; he was dark-haired, just like Jon.

    [Me:] I don’t think this is quite the agonizing struggle GRRM is going for with Jon’s final choice. This sounds more like a romanticized, idealized struggle — and a struggle Jon has faced before with Ygritte (but not so romanticized because she shoots a few arrows into him and he must face the prospect of killing her in battle, carrying the weight of her death afterward)

    So I misread in part the struggle you’re proposing: that Jon’s final choice would be a prince or a man in love?

    For Jon, he’s never yearned to be a prince or to hold the Iron Throne. He has wanted opportunities to prove himself as good and true as Robb, to disprove the bastardy stigma, and this is also why he muses of his boyhood dreams of leading men to glory in conquest — but that about proving his worth, not about being a prince.

    Jon initially wanted to be Ned’s heir because it was Ned, the man he idolized more than anyone else. And this goes too to wanting to prove that he could be as good and true as Robb, to disprove the bastard stigma.

    Yet, by the end of ASOS, he realizes he’s already botched this up because Jon knows how he’s viewed:

    Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

    And in ADWD, Jon finds leadership a lonely and miserable experience:

    Sam, you sweet fat fool, you played me a cruel jape when you made me lord commander. A lord commander has no friends.

    When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those.

    He’s been willing to sacrifice his own honor and name time and time again. Being a prince doesn’t seem to be high on Jon’s list of desires or priorities, if it ever was.

    If it’s about duty, Jon has faced the straight-up struggle between romantic love and duty — with Ygritte. Not that having already faced this struggle eliminates it from being revisited in the future. Jon is faced with similar struggles again and again — but with twists, getting harder and harder with greater costs on both sides. Plus, with Jon and Ygritte, I’d argue was a harder choice for the character than having to chose between being a prince in peacetime and being with the woman he loved. For Jon in ASOS, it was between duty to protecting the realm vs. staying with the woman he loved. Jon did feel tempted to stay with Ygritte — but he ultimately fulfills his duty to the Watch.

    In this scenario of Jon having the throne after killing Dany (putting aside my reservations over why Jon would be offered the throne at all or why he’d be falling in love in Sansa), the throne doesn’t provide a way to protect the realm from threats to Westeros the way Jon’s duty to the Watch did. He’d be in King’s Landing, not at the Wall, and the throne can’t really tell the Watch what to do. And he’d be a king in peacetime — there’s no urgency or specific need for Jon to be king (as was the situation in the show for when Jon was chosen KitN).

    In comparison to this struggle, one that happens in book 3, being a prince and being with the woman he loves doesn’t seem like a terribly difficult choice for Jon. I think he’d easily chose love in this case (especially after everything that’s happened.)

    ______

    I also struggle to see any connection between Sansa and Jenny and other than being a dark-haired Targaryen, much connection between Duncan and Jon.

    Duncan and Jon lived very different lives — and Jon has never been a prince, given that the Targaryen dynasty was overthrown by the time Jon was born. In this way, Dany’s not really a princess either. Her story is about exploring the role of an exiled princess archetype the way Jon’s story is exploring the hidden prince trope and how that would manifest in ASOIAF but neither are truly royalty anymore (well, until Dany becomes the queen of Meereen).

    Duncan’s duty was to be king of the realm and further his family’s dynasty, it’s what was expected of him all his life. Jon never had any such expectations or duties because he had grown up a bastard and needed to be hidden from those looking to kill him for his true parentage, which is why Dany and Viserys found themselves on the run for most of their lives.

    Jon’s obligation to duty was different. It was for a practical, defensive purpose rather than for a political purpose of furthering the family line and upholding a family dynasty. Duncan was a known Targaryen prince, accepted by society. Jon is not. And upon the culmination of the series, if they’re deciding a new monarch, why would they want Jon for the throne? How would the people view him in-universe after all that’s happened, after what Jon has done (and may do)? Why would they treat Jon any differently from Jaime? And if they’re stepping away from blood inheritance and being a candidate for the throne only because of who their father was, electing Jon on the basis of his Targaryen heritage seems counter to this idea. And why would they want another Targaryen after one torched the place?

    When Duncan abdicated and rejected his betrothed, it spurred a war. It did not bring peace. In contrast, Jon being exiled might be what will bring peace between conflicting factions. Him being named king might bring about war with Dany’s supporters.

    As for Jenny and Sansa, I don’t see many similarities. Jenny was a low-born girl who was regarded to be unusual and “half-mad”. Duncan was not permitted to marry Jenny because of Jenny’s lowborn status — which isn’t an issue for Sansa. In contrast, Sansa is a highborn girl raised with a very noble education and whose hand in marriage has value in Westeros. Jenny was popular with the smallfolk while Sansa has very limited interactions with them and much of them are negative.

    As for Sansa’s dragonfly pin, it was a piece in the show and not in the books. Michele Clapton speaks of Sansa’s dragonfly pendant in Game of Thrones: The Costumes:

    Sansa also begins to wear a necklace with a pendant shaped like a dragonfly, which becomes an important motif in her costumes. I wanted to use an insect to symbolize her feeling trapped in King’s Landing; I saw Sansa as an innocent creature from a simpler place. She quickly becomes ensnared in the capital, facing danger on all sides and ill-equipped to navigate the politics that surround Westeros’s seat of power, the Iron Throne. That danger is amplified exponentially after her father is wrongly accused of being a traitor and executed on Joffrey’s orders.

    It doesn’t seem to have a specific connection to the song or Jenny and Duncan. Even if it does, I think it’d be a more in-universe connection rather than pointing to Sansa as Jenny and Jon as Duncan. Jenny and Duncan would seem to be exactly the song Sansa would fall in love with since it’s an idealized beautiful, romantic story Sansa would love. As a child, Catelyn herself would pretend to be Jenny while a young LF would pretend to be Duncan.

    However, these romantic notions are shattered as Sansa continues throughout her story (as most idealized notions do for the characters), even seeming to reject these romantic stories at one point in AFFC:

    But that was when she was a little girl, and foolish. She was a maiden now, three-and-ten and flowered. All her nights were full of song, and by day she prayed for silence.

    If the Eyrie had been made like other castles, only rats and gaolers would have heard the dead man singing. Dungeon walls were thick enough to swallow songs and screams alike. But the sky cells had a wall of empty air, so every chord the dead man played flew free to echo off the stony shoulders of the Giant’s Lance. And the songs he chose . . . He sang of the Dance of the Dragons, of fair Jonquil and her fool, of Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies. He sang of betrayals, and murders most foul, of hanged men and bloody vengeance. He sang of grief and sadness.

    No matter where she went in the castle, Sansa could not escape the music. It floated up the winding tower steps, found her naked in her bath, supped with her at dusk, and stole into her bedchamber even when she latched the shutters tight. It came in on the cold thin air, and like the air, it chilled her. Though it had not snowed upon the Eyrie since the day that Lady Lysa fell, the nights had all been bitter cold.

    The above is the only mention of dragonflies in Sansa’s chapters throughout ASOIAF.

    In short, I don’t see much connecting Sansa and Jon to being each other’s Duncan or Jenny, nor do I find much basis for Sansa and Jon falling in love. Sansa seems to regard Jon as only her half-brother and finds the notion of reuniting with him ‘sweet’ since, as far as she knows, he’s her only brother left. But she also has not thought of Jon in ages.

    Meanwhile, with Jon, Jon only looks at her like a sister — and a sister who differentiated him on the basis of his bastardy. Sansa’s the sibling who took most after her mother and this is why she regards Jon as less than her trueborn siblings. That and Sansa seems to embody what Jon has found painful about Westerosi society: she fits in because she has the right name, the right look, the right parents, she’s not supposed to associate with bastards because of their status and stigma, and (though I know she was a child) she has contributed to outsider characters feeling like outsiders (Jon and especially Arya, who she could be downright cruel to and Arya is Jon’s favourite person and the Jon-Arya bond is developed in part because they are both outsiders in the Stark family).

    And Sansa doesn’t seem at all to be what Jon finds attractive in a woman:

    Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

    All the same, the wildling princess was not beloved of her gaolers. She scorned them all as “kneelers,” and had thrice attempted to escape. When one man-at-arms grew careless in her presence she had snatched his dagger from its sheath and stabbed him in the neck. Another inch to the left and he might have died.

    Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father’s name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead he had chosen honor. A bastard’s sort of honor.

    And with Ygritte, Jon falls in love with her as he gets to know her more and more — not because she’s pretty, because of her name, or is a perfect highborn girl. Ygritte isn’t pretty, she;s a wildling, she has no name, and she’s certainly no traditional highborn girl. It’s her character, her bravery, and her determination which makes her prettier to Jon and what he falls in love with.

    Ygritte also knows what it’s like to be condemned for all of her life due to be born in the wrong place to the wrong people (on the other side of the Wall). She fights and is willing to die and put herself in harm’s way for what she believes in, she’s fighting for another group of outsiders who are being condemned to die because they’re wildlings, not Westerosi. This is something Jon can relate to and something he will come to do as well (his efforts to include the wildlings in the realms of humanity).

    GRRM commented on this and why Jon compares Ygritte to Arya (in reference to the outline in which he had Jon and Arya falling in love):

    [question about the hints for Jon/Arya in the second and third book, the comparing Ygritte and Arya, which wouldn’t be there if GRRM had made up the romance for the outline]

    “You know, I don’t think it’s a reference for that [for romance]. It’s a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It’s like someone who reminds you of, you know… Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn’t put him off because he is used to that.”

    Sansa doesn’t seem to fit this type at all. That’s not to say Jon doesn’t love her — but as his sister and maybe in a more dutiful “because she’s my sister” kind of way, as part of his family. They represent a more distant sibling connection — they’re not friends, just siblings — which is pretty reflective of real life. Not everyone is close friends or even friends with their siblings. But I don’t think it means that as soon as they find out they’re not as closely related, Jon and Sansa are going to fall in love. I don’t find any basis for this.

  534. Adrianacandle,

    I know we’ve talked about Jon misleading Daenerys when they meet, Jon somehow “cheating” her with the purpose to steal a dragon. That was a popular theory back then and it made sense with the political aspects of the story.

    But I have revised since then. I do not think that Jon will in any way deceive Daenerys. The reason is that GRRM’s foreshadowing is straight up looking into our face. The way he has announced Daenerys’ fate in her visions and Robb’s fate, the same way what will happen with Jon is looking into our eyes.

    Specifically, Jon (or Aegon; although I’d like him to be named Aemon, but…) will meet Daenerys, tell her the truth about himself, that he is her nephew, Lyanna’s son with Rhaegar, and will request a dragon, pretty much like Tyrion said Young Griff would do. Daenerys will ask for proof: specifically, that Jon ride a dragon. Once this is accomplished, she -and the rest of them- shall believe that Jon is who he says he is.

    There’s lots of reasons for me to think that this is more likely to happen than any other scenario. First, because Daenerys has been lied to enough; people want her dragons, she’s seen it and she has been warned about it, and she needs to see some honesty for a change. Second, because she often thinks of her brother and Lyanna, believing that it was true love between them, so she will be moved; narratively her thoughts, what troubles her, need to have a pay-off in that respect. Third, because she’s looking for dragon riders; it’s her ideal, a situation recreating perhaps Aegon and his sisters. So when people claim that they are Targaryens, riding a dragon shall be the best proof.
    Quentyn tried and failed. Perhaps she will ask the same of Stannis and Young Griff. [I’m not sure about that though].
    Also, although I am hesitant (more than you) to take the show as proof, I have to confess that such details have definitely caused an upgrade of D&D in my appreciation. Dragonriding may have been very awkward on screen, but it was exactly that: Daenerys asked Jon to ride a dragon. Out of the blue and for no purpose at all. Since they ommitted Young Griff and Quentyn, this seemed totally weird, but in the books it makes a lot of sense. Daenerys is on the lookout for dragon riders, and her ideal would be that she loved one of them [or both].

    So I don’t think that when Jon finds out who he is it will be kept a secret for long. And perhaps he’ll have Daenerys’ backup, just like you suggested. If/when it spreads, I doubt there will be much doubt left to other people about who Jon is, and everything will “click”. Lyanna’s kidnapping, the war, Ned’s bastard. I suppose that for Westeros, Targaryens will have reunited, making up a very formidable opponent with dragons. It will be interesting to see how that would play out in the book (after the war for the Dawn, I suppose it’s a plot saved of ADoS, if ever it comes out…).

    The danger for Daenerys is that she puts too much trust in the prophecies she has received, not that they don’t come true. But for her, it’s either she follows that path of conquest, or settles down somewhere and has a family. So far her ultimate goal is to reach Westeros, and with meeting Jon she will believe that her dream might come true -rule in Westeros, with a man she loves. But I don’t think that Jon will ever love Daenerys, regardless of whether he’ll sleep with her or not. So far as I see it, this love will remain unrequitted for Daenerys. This is also something she hasn’t yet experienced. All she knows is men who love her, literally adore her. I don’t think that Jon will lie to her, but as usual he won’t be very honest about his feelings.

  535. Efi,

    I know we’ve talked about Jon misleading Daenerys when they meet, Jon somehow “cheating” her with the purpose to steal a dragon. That was a popular theory back then and it made sense with the political aspects of the story.

    Pol!Jon was the popular theory among the Jonsa fandom and I think the reasons for that are obvious — because it’s exactly what the Jonsa fandom wants. But it was not popular among the general fandom. I find the theory itself has quite a few plot holes, contradictions, and I’d say the only character who comes out of it relative unscathed is Sansa. It also didn’t make sense in many ways either (see below).

    But with the general fandom, Pol!Jon did not make much headway as a theory. From what I’ve seen, the general fandom thought it was performing some mental gymnastics with very little support.

    There was even a version of this theory called Abortion!Jon — in which there were Jonsas who thought that yeah, Jon did get Dany pregnant — and was now slipping moon tea in with her food and drink to an unaware Dany to prevent any births. For Sansa.

    Originally, the Pol!Jon theory was developed by Jonsas on tumblr shortly after the season 7 plot details were leaked in November 2016 in response to leaks that Jon and Dany would be getting together. Jon and Dany had yet to share the same screen and the Jonsa fandom was already coming up with theories on how he was using her…. while really loving Sansa.

    This Pol!Jon theory is the very thing I’m talking about when I reference the problems with shipping culture — which Kevin talked about here in our April debates and why it is problematic (and the problems he points out in his series of posts are reflective of many fandom problems with extreme shipping culture).

    But as for this once I again I refer back to the Jonsa-theory. As you state what they also do is saying that the ending will be much different. In their idea Jon is only with Dany to manipulate her and steal a dragon for his lover Sansa so he can defeat Dany and take the seven kingdoms for her. (which I even have problems with see below).
    But here comes the thing that they also state is with all the differences, one thing for them is a true given and won’t change in the books. Dark Dany who burn down Kinglanding, it’s the only detail of season 8 that for them will 100% happen. But everything else will be much more different. They nitpick the shows events that only support their theory, the rest will be different.
    Why I have problems with Jon doing that is that he becomes a villain.
    He will take Westeros into another war that will lead to thousands of death only so he can please his lover Sansa.
    He will steal a dragon which make him a thief.
    The Jonsa theory ending makes Jon a villain.

    I also have problems of my own with the theory. Among them, it provides no exit strategy for Jon. Two, it turns Jon into the worst kind of manipulative, abusive bully. Three, it kept undergoing revision after revision when the characters didn’t do what the Jonsa fandom anticipated they’d do and major aspects of the final version of their theory ended up contradicting what they initially proposed. Four, it contradicts itself. Five, it relies on very very little canonical evidence but is treated as canon by Jonsas.

    I could elaborate and give details if you’re interested. In the interest of keeping this post at an acceptable length and reading that you say you’ve dropped this theory yourself, I’ll stop here unless asked for examples of the above.

    The Jonerys fandom has its own problems, god yes, and they can (and are) a pretty impossible, stannish culture too. With both Jonerys and Jonsa, it feels like they’re fighting over Jon like a piece of meat — with Jonerys often being Dany stans and Jonsa often being Sansa stans.

    A user on Reddit (who doesn’t seem to enjoy either Jonsa or Jonerys) wrote up this great post on shipping/stan cultures:

    Aragorn!Jon fans (aka Jon should be king no matter how miserable it makes him): Jon is the destined true savior of the story. He should retain that position of power no matter how hard he fights against it. Everything that went wrong in the show (post S5) won’t happen in the books because that Jon is smarter and braver and a political genius (despite that whole getting murdered thing). The Wildlings are ugly and savage and gross and there is no purpose in Jon helping them rebuild their way of life, willingly or not.

    Jonsa: All of the stuff said about Aragorn!Jon applies, except that he was never really attracted to Ygritte or Val and was subconsciously thinking about Sansa the entire time. He also would willingly boink Sansa whether she believed he was his sister or not (why he can’t openly fantasize about her instead of filtering it through his wildling love interests is unanswered, but OK). Sansa is waiting for a true knight to save her and Jon is the only option available. The whole Jonerys relationship possibly was a fake political ruse to gain Dany’s favor. Their destiny is for Sansa to rule and for Jon to be her subordinate and not ask questions.

    Jonerys: Jon’s true nature is as a Targaryen and it’s “bad writing” for him to not be okay with the incest. Dany’s track record if dealing with her enemies is justified and there were no bad signs because her cause was virtuous. They will take back their family destiny and rule justly. Jon’s distaste for politics is just something he will have to get over.

    Jonmund (disclaimer, I am Jonmund trash): All of Tormund and Jon’s love interests are a distraction to their bond, which was always simmering below the surface, waiting for the right conditions. Jon will be happy in the North amongst the Wildlings because um…he told us that’s what he wanted to do with his life. There will be some adjustment and a lot of healing from his emotional trauma, but ultimately he will be content with his new path in life.

    Gendrya: Legitimizing Gendry was stupid and ruined everything for them (where is Edric Storm when you need him?) Still, they are suited for each other and Arya should take some time and come to realize that being a lady in Storm’s End doesn’t have to be the same as it was in the North, and eventually she and Gendry will be content there.

    Sansan: It’s canon, bitches! GRRM said so (sort of) and he is writing them as a romance. No, you never saw this in the show because there’s no way to film it and not have it be extremely creepy, but that doesn’t matter.

    Braime: GRRM intended this as his central love story and the show all but ruined it by not focusing on Brienne’s backstory and not adapting the book storyline. Brienne has some sort of grand mystical significance to the story, and her title is of extreme importance. Jaime will prove his honor by leaving Cersei and staying by Brienne’s side: any existing children with Cersei he still has obligations to (whether born or unborn, depending on which version of canon you accept) are irrelevant. Jaime’s rejection of Brienne in show canon and Brienne’s decision to take up a position in Bran’s regime that (supposedly) forces her to remain celibate is tragic partly because her true destiny is marriage, motherhood, and the resumption of her title. Jaime’s rejection will cause Brienne to feel forever ugly and unloved, and he deserved a better fate than to die in the arms of the woman who sent him down such a twisted path.

    Stannis stans: The entire story revolves around him. He will be the savior of Winterfell, face off against Dany, defeat the Others, and end up with an important position in society after the wars, which he will then perhaps use to permanently subjugate the Wildlings. He probably won’t burn Shireen but even if he does no one will hold it against him. The Starks are side characters who pale in importance to him and the show killed him off because they hated him and wanted to pervert GRRM’s master plan.

    Which… yep 🙂

    I think people can ship who they ship but the problem is when these shippers start tearing down other characters to make their ships work and treating their theories as canon and/or going into conspiracy theories over why it didn’t happen. Blaming script tampering, wanting to please the audience, Emilia Clarke, etc. Or twisting narratives/passages/scripts to retrofit what they want to happen — ignoring context and cherry-picking. With the latter especially, I don’t think this just applies to the Jonsa fandom, I think it applies to all stans.

    So there are some of my feelings on shipper/stan culture and this looks to be a good point to separate my post 🙂 I will continue on with the spoil coded section in my next!

  536. Efi,

    Specifically, Jon (or Aegon; although I’d like him to be named Aemon, but…) will meet Daenerys, tell her the truth about himself, that he is her nephew, Lyanna’s son with Rhaegar, and will request a dragon, pretty much like Tyrion said Young Griff would do. Daenerys will ask for proof: specifically, that Jon ride a dragon. Once this is accomplished, she -and the rest of them- shall believe that Jon is who he says he is.

    Per my reply to Jai above, I don’t think riding a dragon is proof positive. Dany may believe it in another sense, via a vision, I don’t know. I think that’s a hard one to answer. For me, the problem is convincing the random Westerosi that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

    Also, although I am hesitant (more than you) to take the show as proof,

    I don’t take the show as proof, I know it’s an adaptation. It’s more the interviews that I’m going off of — with D&D, Alan Taylor, GRRM, and what they reference in GRRM’s plans. And what they reference as to having changed (ie. Sansa’s storyline from the books). They’re among the very few of us who actually know and I give that a lot of credence.

    Personally, I’d love for nothing of season 8’s ending to happen in the books. I suppose I’m okay with Sansa and Arya’s endings but I admit I didn’t think Sansa becoming QitN felt earned to me. I don’t think I’d have a problem with this in the books if it was set up well and should GRRM ever release ADOS, I have faith this will feel pretty satisfying! But in the show…? It was another instance of a flop for me because Sansa made decisions I couldn’t really quite understand beyond the writers needing Sansa to do this for plot purposes: causing conflict, drama, and this being required to get to point B. So I don’t think I can put that on the character but on seeing the strings behind the writing.

    Even with Northern independence either way, I think it’s fine if it happens, fine, if it doesn’t. My only criticisms are with the practicality of it but I don’t have a strong emotional response or investment.

    But what happened with Jon’s story and Dany’s story? I don’t like it and I very much wish it didn’t go down that way. Likewise, I found Bran being king confusing and Tyrion become hand… weird.

    But, despite my personal feelings about this stuff and based on the interviews D&D and GRRM have given us, I think it’s heading toward these approximate plot points. I don’t think D&D pulled this out of their a$s 🙁 I’d love to believe that but I don’t.

    So I don’t want to pick and choose in this way.

    I have to confess that such details have definitely caused an upgrade of D&D in my appreciation. Dragonriding may have been very awkward on screen, but it was exactly that: Daenerys asked Jon to ride a dragon. Out of the blue and for no purpose at all. Since they ommitted Young Griff and Quentyn, this seemed totally weird, but in the books it makes a lot of sense. Daenerys is on the lookout for dragon riders, and her ideal would be that she loved one of them [or both].

    Perhaps but I don’t know. It’s hard for me to say. She might be wanting somebody to ride dragons alongside her but I haven’t seen anything to support this so far.

    So I don’t think that when Jon finds out who he is it will be kept a secret for long. And perhaps he’ll have Daenerys’ backup, just like you suggested. If/when it spreads, I doubt there will be much doubt left to other people about who Jon is, and everything will “click”. Lyanna’s kidnapping, the war, Ned’s bastard. I suppose that for Westeros, Targaryens will have reunited, making up a very formidable opponent with dragons. It will be interesting to see how that would play out in the book (after the war for the Dawn, I suppose it’s a plot saved of ADoS, if ever it comes out…).

    If Dany supports Jon as a Targaryen, I think that would be the best “proof” of his parentage since Dany, should Jon be a rival claimant, would benefit the least from this information whereas with somebody else, it could look like a ploy. But I’m not sure Jon will want this information out at all because at this time, I can’t really see a reason for that. However, I don’t know if she’ll be convinced by dragonriding because non-Targaryens can ride dragons too. She may find it intriguing but I’m of the mind that something in the more mystical/magical realm will need to convince her — if it’s required Dany needs to believe this about Jon. I don’t even know if Jon himself will be convinced — and perhaps it’ll require the same thing to convince Jon (something mystical/magical).

    But I don’t know how the rest of Westeros will believe it. That’s my issue. It’s a story that looks pretty unbelievably and seems to feed into many of the prejudices people hold about bastards trying to usurp a trueborn’s claim.

    The danger for Daenerys is that she puts too much trust in the prophecies she has received, not that they don’t come true. But for her, it’s either she follows that path of conquest, or settles down somewhere and has a family. So far her ultimate goal is to reach Westeros, and with meeting Jon she will believe that her dream might come true -rule in Westeros, with a man she loves. But I don’t think that Jon will ever love Daenerys, regardless of whether he’ll sleep with her or not. So far as I see it, this love will remain unrequitted for Daenerys. This is also something she hasn’t yet experienced. All she knows is men who love her, literally adore her. I don’t think that Jon will lie to her, but as usual he won’t be very honest about his feelings.

    Well, if Jon isn’t being honest about his feelings, I think that’d fall under using and manipulating her. I also know I’ve explained why I think Jon will have love for Dany and why I think that’s important, especially if killing Dany is his final test. It may not have to be romantic! It may be platonic but I expect it’ll be strong because otherwise, if Dany’s nothing to him, where’s the conflict in his final tests? Love is what makes these tests agonizing for Jon, far far more than his own honor or reputation.

    But lying to Dany about his feelings would be pretty problematic. That would fall under manipulation and point to some of the problems Kevin talked about in his post.

    I’m also not sure Dany will be quite that naive either. She’s smart and she’s been through some sh!t herself. However, not all men have adored or loved Dany — Hizdahr doesn’t seem to feel this way about her. There are questions about Daario’s feelings for Dany. He may love the violent side of her and be excited by bloodlust but does he love the other parts? There’s some good questioning over that.

    Personally, I don’t think Jon and Dany’s relationship will be healthy… but I don’t think it’ll be one-sided as many Jonsas hope.

    Jon and Dany may bond on some very real things they share in common — and some ideals and longings they both share. Dany, for better or for worse, might still have a goal of trying to make the world better — even if she’s employing some ruthless and extreme methods to get there (which seems to be the case in 8×06). The wildlings are also pretty ruthless themselves and Jon certainly found a significant bond with some of them. And it depends on how Jon meets Dany and what connects them.

    They both have a deep, unrelenting hatred for the Lannisters that can colour judgement. They both want to see their enemies dead, they’ve both been influenced by these feelings against better judgement. They have both suffered from society’s cruelty and stigma. This has informed their compassion for other outsiders/oppressed as they view them. They both share some strong experiences (such as the deaths of their first loves, both of whom belonged to cultures viewed as savage), they’ve both been significantly betrayed. They’ve both longed for a place in the world to really belong. They both have a fire that drives them and they both may find the other is exactly who they need in a desperate time, bonding on that level.

    And they both have some pretty big differences as well.

    But I think there is stuff to form some strong feelings between them. No, one doesn’t have to become the other’s lapdog — I don’t think that’s the only way this relationship can come about.

    Again, I don’t think this will be a healthy relationship — and I think it may be an exploration of this kind of relationship within the setting of Westeros. How it can both damage and save and how it’s probably not sustainable. I expect it’ll probably burn hot, bright, and intensely… and have an impact (both negative and positive) on Westeros.

    Jon has died. Like Dany, maybe some of his kid gloves have come off too. That’s going to be one of his major struggles — and I don’t think the good in Dany has wholly evaporated either, I don’t think that’s GRRM’s way. I think she’ll become more extremist though, like Jon may become in some respects to do what he feels needs to be done, including the defense of the realm and of all peoples. Maybe he’ll be less tempered when dealing with those he views as enemies, less willing to put up with arguments and opposition to what he’s trying to achieve. Maybe future Bowen Marshes and bigots will face a far less polite and tempered Jon and will feel real wrath. Maybe Jon will take on some extreme measures of his own — in which case, he could relate to Dany on some level.

    But I don’t think Jon’s death will result in him becoming a glorified Stark bodyguard who will rabidly protect anyone named Stark, snarling at anyone who is outside of this “pack”. I think Feldman asks a good question: who is Jon’s pack now?

  537. Adrianacandle,

    This does not remind me of anything:

    “For example, due to Jon’s bastardy and Catelyn’s mistrust for Jon, the Blackfish falsely believes that Jon conspired to take the title of Lord Commander for himself”

    Can you elaborate? Is it from the show? Jon wasn’t lord lord commander the last time Catelyn met the Blackfish.

    You’re right that Jenny of Oldstones is not the only song in ASoIaF. There’s also another that we don’t know yet, and that’s the song(s?) connected to the story of Florian and Jonquil. That is very specifically connected to Sansa, as Dontos calls her Jonquil, and she calls him Florian. For some reason this story seems to me very complicated to reiterate here, but I think (the way I see it) the theme is what do fools in love do for the one they love.

    https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Florian_the_Fool

    Curiously enough, this story is compared to Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, Aemon the Dragonknight and Duncan the Tall, prince Duncan Targaryen’s of the dragonflies namesake. The connection in the last case has something to do (elusive to me) with a tourney. Aemon the Dragonknight was famous for being desperately in love with his sister Naerys, but he died saving his brother’s life, Aegon IV. Jon and Robb pretended to be they were the heroes when they were kids.

    Anyway, back to the main subject.

    As I’ve explained before, the book story is a very complicated one. The show was a simple “allies march against Cersei to get rid of a tyrant” story. But if Euron has a dragon and he is either with Cersei or Young Griff, the game changes completely. Perhaps Jon and Daenerys (or just Daenerys, if Jon has no dragon by that time) deal with Euron first; perhaps not. Perhaps it will be a three-way dance of dragons.

    But what seems plausible to me is that Daenerys’ position won’t be as powerful as it was in the show. First, because lots of her men will have died in the North; the Others are not as easily killed with dragonglass as they were in the show, and dragonglass is destroyed once used as a knife (it breaks). Second, because the dragons don’t like the snow and won’t go beyond the Wall (established in F&B); they don’t even like the rain, so I don’t know how effective it will be to take them North -not that they will be completely useless though.
    So whatever forces are left to Daenerys after the destruction of KL will not be in a position to dictate any terms to the Westerosi, especially after Daenerys’ killing. The remaining Unsullied/Dothraki will be headless in addition; they’ll be docile enough, especially seeing what their queen has done to civilians.

    Third, because I believe that Jon will withdraw his support the last minute. He won’t enter the city with Daenerys’ forces, and if he does he’ll turn against them inside the city. It will be a massacre, an unexpected one, and it will cost even more casualties to Daenerys. The detailed description of what an arakh can do or can’t do in the books needs to have a pay-off. The Dothraki will actually fight against armored knights and soldiers, and they won’t be as deadly as they think. [Barristan already knows this; Jorah too]

    This I believe because this line from the books:
    “he who kneels rises again, sword in hand”
    needs to have a pay-off in-universe. It is repeated multiple times, and if I am not mistaken it is repated also in connection with Robb. Since Robb and Jon are foils, I think if it comes to pass, it will concern the North under Jon.

    Bonus: the show did show Jon abandoning Daenerys in the middle of the attack.

    Bonus 2: the book does have this legend that Renly rose from the dead to defend the people of KL. We know that Renly didn’t rise. Jon will rise in WoW and will march South at Daenerys’ side. It might happen that he will become their champion, and the legend comes to pass this time.

    This development will leave Jon in a very different position than the one he was in the show.
    The show needed to send Jon to exile with good reason, leaving unsaid that it might be (imo) his own choice to leave. So they portrayed a powerful Daenerys (because she is the hero of GoT) and someone had to answer (figuratively, since Jon technically didn’t answer) for her murder. So they tucked Jon away like that (failed; it was a very unfortunate choice on the part of the producers and the most bitter aspect of the ending).
    In the books, however, Jon will have the backup of his army -whatever it is; Daenerys’ army won’t be much stronger. The Reach and Dornish armies will probably have been destroyed; we don’t know what will happen with the armies of Casterly Rock and Storms End (if any). All in all, I think that only Jon will be in a better position than the other lords.
    In this context Jon will be left South with the task to make sense of all this mess and to try to put some order; not as a king at this point, he will have abdicated from the Northern throne anyway. Jon will have to collect the remainder of Daenerys’ forces and to come to terms with them. He’ll also execute Tyrion for the burning of the city.
    Then he will be the one to call for a great council, and in the council he will be offered the kingship.

    And there it’s a trick; I think it can go either way. It might be that Jon chooses to return North and leave the kingship to his brother Bran, like Aemon did before him.
    But it might also be that Jon’s life is a life of service. At least some in ASoIaF lament the fact that they allowed Aemon to leave while they shouldn’t have because he’d be a good king.

    Isn’t it weird that in the show the option to pay “community service” was offered to Tyrion? What if they took that from Jon’s story? Tyrion has no foreshadow that he’ll be hand [unlike Jamie]. He has reached that point, he has served as hand in Tywin’s place, and he will become Daenerys’ hand. I don’t see how a repetition does any service to the story or to Tyrion as a character especially after supporting Daenerys till the very end.

    Aemon to Jon: “you will find little joy in your command”
    Aerys to his own hand: “let him be king of the ashes!”

    Yes, no joy. After all, there has to be a “king of the ashes”, and if anything, Jon is connected with destruction, ruling over chaotic scenery/situations upon entering office.
    But as I said, it also makes a lot of sense that he will refuse. The final decision is Martin’s.

  538. Efi,

    This does not remind me of anything:
    “For example, due to Jon’s bastardy and Catelyn’s mistrust for Jon, the Blackfish falsely believes that Jon conspired to take the title of Lord Commander for himself”
    Can you elaborate? Is it from the show? Jon wasn’t lord lord commander the last time Catelyn met the Blackfish.

    In the books, when the Blackfish and Jaime meet (AFFC, Jaime VI):

    “I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark’s bastard is the Lord Commander on the Wall.”

    The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. “Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both. No, ser, I think not. I’ll die warm, if you please, with a sword in hand running red with lion blood.”

    “Tully blood runs just as red,” Jaime reminded him. “If you will not yield the castle, I must storm it. Hundreds will die.”

    ____

    You’re right that Jenny of Oldstones is not the only song in ASoIaF. There’s also another that we don’t know yet, and that’s the song(s?) connected to the story of Florian and Jonquil. That is very specifically connected to Sansa, as Dontos calls her Jonquil, and she calls him Florian. For some reason this story seems to me very complicated to reiterate here, but I think (the way I see it) the theme is what do fools in love do for the one they love.

    Curiously enough, this story is compared to Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, Aemon the Dragonknight and Duncan the Tall, prince Duncan Targaryen’s of the dragonflies namesake. The connection in the last case has something to do (elusive to me) with a tourney. Aemon the Dragonknight was famous for being desperately in love with his sister Naerys, but he died saving his brother’s life, Aegon IV. Jon and Robb pretended to be they were the heroes when they were kids.

    By the same token, Robb pretended to be Florian… but I don’t think that’s setting up Sansa and Robb either. However, there’s nothing to indicate Jon is in love with Sansa. This connection seems tenuous at best just because Jon and Robb played heroes as kids.

    For some reason this story seems to me very complicated to reiterate here, but I think (the way I see it) the theme is what do fools in love do for the one they love.

    As I’ve explained before, the book story is a very complicated one. The show was a simple “allies march against Cersei to get rid of a tyrant” story. But if Euron has a dragon and he is either with Cersei or Young Griff, the game changes completely. Perhaps Jon and Daenerys (or just Daenerys, if Jon has no dragon by that time) deal with Euron first; perhaps not. Perhaps it will be a three-way dance of dragons.
    But what seems plausible to me is that Daenerys’ position won’t be as powerful as it was in the show. First, because lots of her men will have died in the North; the Others are not as easily killed with dragonglass as they were in the show, and dragonglass is destroyed once used as a knife (it breaks). Second, because the dragons don’t like the snow and won’t go beyond the Wall (established in F&B); they don’t even like the rain, so I don’t know how effective it will be to take them North -not that they will be completely useless though.

    I think it’s hard to say anything for certain at this point. I don’t know how it’s going to go down but I think Dany will probably end up North somehow, even if the dragons dislike it (and that may cause problems, as they lightly touched upon in the show).

    But it can go so many ways that it’s hard to say right now. So many people have their own ideas of the plotting.

    However, I believe Sam slew an Other with a dragonglass dagger.

    [Part 1]

  539. Efi,

    So whatever forces are left to Daenerys after the destruction of KL will not be in a position to dictate any terms to the Westerosi, especially after Daenerys’ killing. The remaining Unsullied/Dothraki will be headless in addition; they’ll be docile enough, especially seeing what their queen has done to civilians.

    I expect, if it goes down like it did in the show, they’ll still be in a position to create more war. I don’t think it’ll be a matter of MQ Dany dying and it just so happens her forces aren’t that much of a threat. That feels to easy. We don’t know how strong Dany’s forces will be. That’s an unknown.

    Third, because I believe that Jon will withdraw his support the last minute. He won’t enter the city with Daenerys’ forces, and if he does he’ll turn against them inside the city. It will be a massacre, an unexpected one, and it will cost even more casualties to Daenerys.

    But, assuming it goes down the same way on the show, I don’t know what would compel Jon to do this — plus that would cause problems for Jon because then Jon would be committing treason and oathbreaking. This wouldn’t reflect well on Jon or his armie and will probably mean not-good-things for the North and whatever remains of the Northern army.

    The detailed description of what an arakh can do or can’t do in the books needs to have a pay-off. The Dothraki will actually fight against armored knights and soldiers, and they won’t be as deadly as they think. [Barristan already knows this; Jorah too]
    This I believe because this line from the books:
    “he who kneels rises again, sword in hand”
    needs to have a pay-off in-universe. It is repeated multiple times, and if I am not mistaken it is repated also in connection with Robb. Since Robb and Jon are foils, I think if it comes to pass, it will concern the North under Jon.

    Why does it need to have pay-off and why does it need to happen in this way? I mean, GRRM goes into detail with clothes, food, and other weapons… but I don’t think there will be special pay off to that.

    I think that quote from Balon Greyjoy. The only instance I can find of this quote comes from ADWD when Asha surrenders.

    The full quote:

    “No man has ever died from bending his knee,” her father had once told her. “He who kneels may rise again, blade in hand. He who will not kneel stays dead, stiff legs and all.” Balon Greyjoy had proved the truth of his own words when his first rebellion failed; the kraken bent the knee to stag and direwolf, only to rise again when Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark were dead.

    And so at Deepwood the kraken’s daughter had done the same when she was dumped before the king, bound and limping (though blessedly unraped), her ankle a blaze of pain. “I yield, Your Grace. Do as you wish with me. I ask only that you spare my men.” Qarl and Tris and the rest who had survived the wolfswood were all she had to care about. Only nine remained. We ragged nine, Cromm named them. He was the worst wounded.

    The quote isn’t talking about bending the knee to rise in defiance. It’s talking about bending the knee to survive.

    Bonus: the show did show Jon abandoning Daenerys in the middle of the attack.

    Because Jon was witnessing Dany methodically strafing the city street by street and Jon (reasonably) is horrified by this. He tried to stop his men, they wouldn’t listen, he went into a state of shock, denial, and when he found the situation to be hopeless, he ordered a fallback alongside Davos. However, Jon still didn’t want to kill Dany. He tried to convince himself that the war was done with this.

    Bonus 2: the book does have this legend that Renly rose from the dead to defend the people of KL. We know that Renly didn’t rise. Jon will rise in WoW and will march South at Daenerys’ side. It might happen that he will become their champion, and the legend comes to pass this time.

    It’s not a legend… it’s a quote from Balon concerning why Balon bent the knee and agreed to Robert’s terms. It’s not a legend about somebody rising in defiance against their monarch.

    This development will leave Jon in a very different position than the one he was in the show.

    I think I’ve already made my “human heart in conflict” argument before in relation to Jon’s final choice (killing Dany) so I’ll avoid reiterating that again but I think that’s an important element to this.

    However, Jon committing treason and turning against his queen is still oathbreaking, a very serious crime in Westeros.

    The show needed to send Jon to exile with good reason, leaving unsaid that it might be (imo) his own choice to leave. So they portrayed a powerful Daenerys (because she is the hero of GoT) and someone had to answer (figuratively, since Jon technically didn’t answer) for her murder.

    But again, this followed the established laws of the universe: Jon had committed oathbreaking, kingslaying, and queenslaying. Those are among the worst things you can do in Westeros. And if Bran is about a corruption-free regime, Jon needs to answer for that. It goes to the theme of GRRM having people be accountable for their actions rather than this action being simply hailed as a heroic save. There are complications and an ambiguity to this action. It may have saved the realm… but it still comes with consequence in-universe due to Westerosi views, customs, and beliefs — as well as some of Jon’s own (kinslaying being one of the three worst crimes in the eyes of the Old Gods).

    I don’t think Jon was punished simply because it was Daenerys he killed. He, like every other character, is subject to the consequences of this — especially per the established rules.

    In the books, however, Jon will have the backup of his army -whatever it is; Daenerys’ army won’t be much stronger. The Reach and Dornish armies will probably have been destroyed; we don’t know what will happen with the armies of Casterly Rock and Storms End (if any). All in all, I think that only Jon will be in a better position than the other lords.

    Again, we can’t be certain of any of this. We don’t even know if the burning of KL will happen in the same way (especially if we can’t take the show as proof).

    [Part 2]

  540. Efi,

    In this context Jon will be left South with the task to make sense of all this mess and to try to put some order; not as a king at this point, he will have abdicated from the Northern throne anyway. Jon will have to collect the remainder of Daenerys’ forces and to come to terms with them. He’ll also execute Tyrion for the burning of the city.

    But why does it have to be Jon? Especially if he has become a queenslayer, oathbreaker, and if Westeros is somehow able to believe R+L=J a Targaryen kinslayer? These are reviled in Westeros and stigma against Targaryen blood would worsen. And if they don’t believe R=L=J, Jon is a bastard son killing their monarch, which I doubt will play so well either, especially given how Westeros views bastards. And I feel all this is relying on some pretty uncertain details.

    Plus, if Dany has won the throne at this point, what she will have done will technically be legal. There’s no UN to hold her to a greater law in which she must be tried and punished. She makes the law so what Tyrion has done… that wouldn’t be illegal or others would be executed for mass killings and murders… like Tywin.

    Then he will be the one to call for a great council, and in the council he will be offered the kingship.

    But again, why Jon? And how would they be able to get past everything I laid out in my post above? Plus Jon’s own less-than-great reputation in-universe.

    This hasn’t really addressed my questions beyond Jon somehow having a bigger army and somehow coming to terms with the remainder of Daenerys’s supporters. I mean, how would that happen? Why would they listen to the guy who turned against their queen?

    And there it’s a trick; I think it can go either way. It might be that Jon chooses to return North and leave the kingship to his brother Bran, like Aemon did before him.

    Well, and I know I’m a broken record at this point, I don’t think Jon is going to be in a position to choose if he does all this.

    But it might also be that Jon’s life is a life of service. At least some in ASoIaF lament the fact that they allowed Aemon to leave while they shouldn’t have because he’d be a good king.

    It doesn’t quite mirror Aemon because Aemon didn’t commit oathbreaking, queenslaying, and kinslaying — which is the major difference. He was able to abdicate of his own free choice without any of those crimes being attached to his name… and without a fellow Targaryen leveling the city, which will have worsened stigma.

    Isn’t it weird that in the show the option to pay “community service” was offered to Tyrion? What if they took that from Jon’s story?

    Community service for kingslaying, queenslaying, and oathbreaking? I don’t know… and I don’t know that Jon would think that’s enough in light of what he did, which he’ll certainly feel and will probably be pretty soul-scarring. Those are three major crimes in and of themselves. And it certainly won’t free Jon from the scorn of Westerosi society.

    Tyrion being a crappy hand and supporting a queen who ended up leveling a city… those things aren’t on quite the same level in the views of the Westerosi. Sacks of cities and mass murder happen multiple times in Westeros but still, things like breaking sacred-guest right, oathbreaking, kingslaying, and kinslaying are huge no-no’s. While they all hated Aerys, viewed him as cruel and mad — they still scorned Jaime for killing him. I think there’s some values dissonance going on in this universe but there it is.

    Tyrion has no foreshadow that he’ll be hand [unlike Jamie]. He has reached that point, he has served as hand in Tywin’s place, and he will become Daenerys’ hand.

    Tensor proposed a scenario I would find quite plausible for this fate for Tyrion:

    To quote his post:

    Instead, [Tyrion] will work, day after day after day, for decades, trying to solve all of the problems of re-building six kingdoms — and practicing foreign diplomacy with a Northern Queen who both knows him very well, and does not like him very much. He will work constantly, under the relentless eye of the most watchful boss who has ever existed, and who knows exactly what results Tyrion must deliver. He will work at this hard job of ruling, possibly for all of the rest of his days, knowing his previous failure destroyed the lives of a million innocent persons. And what reward will he get? As Jaime sneered to a prior Hand, “the King sh*ts, and the Hand wipes.”
    A lifetime of actual work in government could be a burdensome punishment indeed!

    And I think there’s some credence to this. This idea is touched upon as early as ACOK when after the Battle of Blackwater, in which it was Tyrion’s efforts and Tyrion’s ideas that really helped King’s Landing hold their own against Stannis (and Tyrion’s face is mutilated in the process), it’s Tywin who gets the credit when he rides in and saves the day:

    “Since the night of the battle. Lord Tywin saved us all. The smallfolk say it was King Renly’s ghost, but wiser men know better. It was your father and Lord Tyrell, with the Knight of Flowers and Lord Littlefinger. They rode through the ashes and took the usurper Stannis in the rear. It was a great victory, and now Lord Tywin has settled into the Tower of the Hand to help His Grace set the realm to rights, gods be praised.”

    “Gods be praised,” Tyrion repeated hollowly. His bloody father and bloody Littlefinger and Renly’s ghost?

    So in this way, I can see Tyrion becoming hand as a punishment. And it’s not exactly an awesome position either — especially if Tyrion despises the realm and is doomed to a thankless job, something Tyrion would absolutely have a problem with.

    I don’t know about Jaime becoming hand though.

    I don’t see how a repetition does any service to the story or to Tyrion as a character especially after supporting Daenerys till the very end.

    Well, an idea can be implemented and explored in different ways. Ned as Hand was different from Tyrion as Hand and these jobs were given to them under different circumstances. Plus, it depends on if Tyrion becomes Dany’s hand at all or is playing two sides of the field (Dany and YG) to fan the flames in order to provide his best chance at defeating his family.

    Aemon to Jon: “you will find little joy in your command”
    Aerys to his own hand: “let him be king of the ashes!”
    Yes, no joy. After all, there has to be a “king of the ashes”, and if anything, Jon is connected with destruction, ruling over chaotic scenery/situations upon entering office.

    I’m not sure how these two quotes connect? Aemon isn’t Jon’s hand. Plus, what Aemon told Jon very much applied to his experiences in ADWD — and I imagine they’ll continue to apply as Jon faces hard choice after increasingly hard choice, bringing him misery and isolation.

    But as I said, it also makes a lot of sense that he will refuse. The final decision is Martin’s.

    The final choice is Martin’s but I don’t think this will be a choice Jon makes. I think he will be punished and viewed negatively by Westeros.

    There are passages which seem to indicate the end he received in the show:

    Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man’s hand be raised against him.

    “Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother.”

    “And this too,” said Jon. “A vow.”

    The Old Bear gave a loud snort, and the raven took flight, flapping in a circle about the room. “Give me a man for every vow I’ve seen broken and the Wall will never lack for defenders.”

    “I’ve always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell.”

    Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. “A lord’s one thing, a king’s another.” He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. “They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You’ll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they’ll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I’ll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it.”

    Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. “And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?”

    “What will you do?” Mormont asked. “Bastard as you are?”

    “Be troubled,” said Jon, “and keep my vows.”

    Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

  541. It is hard for me to express how disappointed I am in GRRM. ACOK and SOS, each took two years to write and are arguably the two best books in the series. AFFC took four years, and was the weakest of the first four books and ADOD took seven years and is far inferior to the first four. Now WOW is going to take eleven years and given the track record we have seen so far it is not going to be that great of a book. How did GRRM lose his way so badly? The bottom line is that his publisher lost their power over him, probably due to the success of the books, and allowed him to dither and procrastinate to the extreme. There is is just no excuse for how long it is taking him to write these books. It is obvious that his focus is elsewhere, which is patently obvious given the length of time it is taking him to complete the books and the fact that the quality of the books has markedly declined. A lot of people want to blame Benioff and Weiss for the atrocious 8th season and they should take their share of blame, but I blame Martin just as much for not finishing books six and seven before the show ran its course. He had six years to get it done and he failed. Once the show lost the books to draw from the show faltered and ultimately crashed and burned in the 8th season.

    At this point it is hard for me to drum up any enthusiasm over books six and seven, for even if WOW comes out next year, which I highly doubt, how long until book seven will come out, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years? GRRM you have turned which was once one of the best fantasy epics going into an utter debacle.

  542. Efi,

    Crap, I’m sorry. I totally misread you here:

    Efi: Bonus 2: the book does have this legend that Renly rose from the dead to defend the people of KL. We know that Renly didn’t rise. Jon will rise in WoW and will march South at Daenerys’ side. It might happen that he will become their champion, and the legend comes to pass this time.

    Me: It’s not a legend… it’s a quote from Balon concerning why Balon bent the knee and agreed to Robert’s terms. It’s not a legend about somebody rising in defiance against their monarch.

    I was mistaken here. I thought you were referring to what Balon told Asha but I think this is the passage you’re referring to from ASOS:

    Grey-bearded Hamish the Harper announced that he would perform “for the ears of gods and men, a song ne’er heard before in all the Seven Kingdoms.” He called it “Lord Renly’s Ride.”

    His fingers moved across the strings of the high harp, filling the throne room with sweet sound. “From his throne of bones the Lord of Death looked down on the murdered lord,” Hamish began, and went on to tell how Renly, repenting his attempt to usurp his nephew’s crown, had defied the Lord of Death himself and crossed back to the land of the living to defend the realm against his brother.

    Now, this isn’t a legend but a song twisting actual events into things that are untrue. This shows how people can become the unreliable narrators of history.

    The song itself is playing on the perceived truth (without it actually being the truth) in an overly romanticized and idealized manner — and I think it’s meant to demonstrate how much real events can become completely twisted into stories which bare little resemblance to what actually happened. It doesn’t convey true details of what actually happened but of what people want believe happened (when, in reality, Renly’s ghost was a deception). It’s demonizing one faction (Stannis, who was fighting for the realm but lacked Renly’s good looks, diplomatic ways, and charisma) and turning another into a saint (Renly, who looked the part and acted the part, but hardly was hardly this savior figure — he was pretty superficial).

    I don’t think much is connecting to Jon himself here other than Jon probably being brought back from the dead and that he will probably defend the realm. And as you noted in this thread, Jon is hardly the only one who has been brought back from the dead.
    Now, I do expect that, like in the show, Jon may have to make the choice to defend the realm (as the song specifies rather than King’s Landing) from Dany or something having to do with Dany in some way and in that way, I can see a sort-of connection but the scenario you’re proposing is pretty different (Jon turning on Dany before she even burns KL).

    But more immediately, I think this plays into Tyrion’s bitterness over Renly’s ghost getting the credit for his efforts and this song just hammers it home — that Tyrion will never be recognized or loved, despite him having a huge role in saving King’s Landing from Stannis. Even those who weren’t there and died well before battle (Renly) will get credit while Tyrion will remain disdained and dismissed.

    He heard them cheering outside even before he reached the doors. The mob loved Margaery so much they were even willing to love Joffrey again. She had belonged to Renly, the handsome young prince who had loved them so well he had come back from beyond the grave to save them. And the bounty of Highgarden had come with her, flowing up the roseroad from the south. The fools didn’t seem to remember that it had been Mace Tyrell who closed the roseroad to begin with, and made the bloody famine.

    “Since the night of the battle. Lord Tywin saved us all. The smallfolk say it was King Renly’s ghost, but wiser men know better. It was your father and Lord Tyrell, with the Knight of Flowers and Lord Littlefinger. They rode through the ashes and took the usurper Stannis in the rear. It was a great victory, and now Lord Tywin has settled into the Tower of the Hand to help His Grace set the realm to rights, gods be praised.”

    “Gods be praised,” Tyrion repeated hollowly. His bloody father and bloody Littlefinger and Renly’s ghost?

    I wanted to address something with Dany too:

    [spoiler]

    Efi: The danger for Daenerys is that she puts too much trust in the prophecies she has received, not that they don’t come true. But for her, it’s either she follows that path of conquest, or settles down somewhere and has a family. So far her ultimate goal is to reach Westeros, and with meeting Jon she will believe that her dream might come true -rule in Westeros, with a man she loves.

    While Dany feels she can’t be free to do all that she wants (a simple, carefree life in a house), I don’t think that’s the same as settling down or being an absolute choice Dany is setting for herself (conquest or settling down).

    Dany wants home, a place to belong, and a connection to her family, an opportunity to rebuild her family’s dynasty, as well as a way to right the world’s injustices as she sees them because she’s been there herself — and it feels to me that she thinks she’ll get all these things once she takes the throne, which she feels is her destiny and the answer to everything, something she must do. Taking the throne seems to be how Dany thinks she can have it all — but no, it’s not a simple, carefree life that part of her longs for.

    Dany believes she can’t have children not because she’s a conqueror or a queen — but because of MMD’s prophecy. This is what she dwells on. I think, yes, Dany would love to rule Westeros alongside a man she loves. For much of her story, Dany does feel lonely and isolated, but I don’t think that’s her driving motivation. She’s also not incredibly trusting. While infatuated with Daario, Dany also doesn’t really trust him — or his feelings for her. However, though Dany does seem to yearn for a simpler, more carefree life, she doesn’t feel like this is an option for her because she’s a queen. But I don’t think this means Dany is eliminating a settled life — but a simple life of an ordinary woman.

  543. Eman: At this point it is hard for me to drum up any enthusiasm over books six and seven, for even if WOW comes out next year, which I highly doubt, how long until book seven will come out, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years? GRRM you have turned which was once one of the best fantasy epics going into an utter debacle.

    I was talking about this with a friend today, who brought up that she had pre-ordered TWOW in 2013 but Amazon cancelled her order and refunded her (we were first talking about CLAMP and how they can take forever to finish a series). She also brought up this very article and, unfortunately, while I expect GRRM is probably struggling and would like to get these books done, we sort of came to the same conclusion that talk’s cheap. I have my doubts too and at this point, I feel doubt is safer.

  544. Adrianacandle,

    • About “Jonsa” theorists…
    With the understanding that it may be unproductive to conflate book! canon and show! canon, I don’t see how there’s a basis for a serious romance between Jon and Sansa. At least on the show (paraphrasing):

    S6e10
    Sansa: “Sorry I didn’t tell you about KotV.”
    Jon: “We have to trust each other.”

    S8e6
    Sansa: “Sorry I breached your trust. Can you forgive me?”
    Jon: 😡

    Hardly a basis for a deep, abiding love and serious relationship.

    • On the other hand…
    Has there been confirmation from the Big Kahuna himself that he’s abandoned the Jon 💕Arya angle from his original outline? Because that conclusion would not be inconsistent with the show’s story line, or with the many book! Ygritte-Arya comparisons you cited.
    And after all, by the time Jon sees Arya again, she won’t resemble the little tomboy “Arya Underfoot” he left behind in WF so long ago.

    👸🏻

  545. Ten Bears: Has there been confirmation from the Big Kahuna himself that he’s abandoned the Jon 💕Arya angle from his original outline? Because that conclusion would not be inconsistent with the show’s story line, or with the many book! Ygritte-Arya comparisons you cited.
    And after all, by the time Jon sees Arya again, she won’t resemble the little tomboy “Arya Underfoot” he left behind in WF so long ago.

    In 2016, GRRM addressed these questions. He had said he was making a bunch of stuff up when he was doing the outline because for him to go forward, an outline was required by publishers — so he made one up on the spot. However, GRRM explains he was making stuff up and completely disregarded it when writing the actual books. that Ygritte reminding Jon of Arya wasn’t intende

    GRRM also says he didn’t mean to imply any romance between Jon and Arya but those comparisons were meant to point to traits Jon finds admirable:

    Here is a transcript of the outline discussion and Jon/Arya portion of the coffee talk:

    [question about Jon/Arya]

    GRRM: “Alright, you’ve thought about this more than I have. I mean it’s simple, Jon is very fond of Arya. They were the two odd birds in the Stark family nest, here. They didn’t quite fit in with the others, they look like each other, they both had the brown hair, you know, as opposed to the auburn hair of Sansa and Bran and Rickon and Robb. So there was always that closeness between them. And, you know, Arya didn’t mind that Jon was a bastard, and Jon didn’t mind that Arya was a tomboy, so there is that closeness there.”

    [question about Jon comparing his lover to his sister]

    GRRM: “If he did it, uhm… I began writing these books in 1991, and, uhm, I worked on it in 91 and then I got a tv play, so I put it aside to really work on ‘Doorways’ tv pilot and did a tv show in 92-93. In 94 I returned to it [the books] and worked on it. You know, up till then, in my career as a writer, I’d always written the entire book before I opted for sale. That’s unusual. Most writers do chapters and an outline. They write a few chapters, they outline the rest of the book, give that to the publisher and the publisher says ‘oh okay, I’ll take that’.

    “As some of you may have noticed, those who have been paying very, very carefully attention, I’m not good with deadlines. And, uh, and I’m not good with outlines, either. I always hated outlines. So with Fevre Dream and with Armageddon Rag and with Dying of the Light and all my novels, I wrote the entire book. I didn’t do chapters and outline. I sat down, I wrote a whole book, and I sent it to my agent and said ‘Look, here’s a whole book, and it’s finished’. That way I ran into no deadline, it was finished before it even went on the market. And it worked well for me. And my initial thought was to do this the same way, but what happened, you know, was in 1994, uhm, when I returned to it and I’m working on it and I’m very enthused about it and I say ‘I really wanna write these Game of Thrones books as the next part’. But I was still in hollywood and I’d just lost all this groundwork on ‘Doorways’, I was still in… The studios and networks still wanna work with me, so I’m getting other offers, like ‘We want you to write this movie’, ‘we want you to do another tv pilot’. And, you know, I took a couple of them and was ‘Oh god, I gotta have to put the book away again’. Cause I have no deadline [for the book]. You know, when you think hollywood, they will give you a deadline, you know, they say ‘here, son, write this movie, we want it in three months’.

    “So, I said ‘look, if I wanna get back to being a novelist, I’m gonna have to sell this even though it’s not finished’. So I had my 200 pages of Game of Thrones at that point, but they wanted outline. I said ‘I don’t do outlines. I don’t know what’s gonna happen, I figure it out as I go. And that’s how I always did it.’ No, we had to have an outline. So I wrote two pages, a two-page thing about what I thought would happen. It’ll be a trilogy, it’ll be three books, Game of Thrones, the Dance with Dragons, and Winds of Winter. Those were the three window titles. And, uh, it’ll be three books and this’ll happen, and this’ll happen, and this’ll happen. And I was making up shit.

    And I had thought that those two pages were long forgotten, because, of course, the books did sell. They sold in the United States and in Great Britain, both. They sold for enough money that I didn’t have to take any more hollywood games. So I was able to say ‘no’ around. I had a few less [?] to wind up in in 94 and 95. Once I had, I said ‘no, I don’t want any more movies or tv shows, I’m going to write these books now’. And I started writing the books. And in the process, I pretty much disregarded the outline. The characters took me off in entirely different directions. So, for 20 years I had forgotten that that two-page thing even existed. And then someone in my british publisher, HarperCollins, they got a new office building, uh, brand new offices, and new conference rooms, big conference rooms that they decorated with books and stuff like that. And they named the conference rooms after the writers, so one of the conference rooms [?], and they put up these plastic display cases, including the outline. The two-page outline, yes. [?], they didn’t ask my permission, they just put it up. And in that two-page outline, Jon and Arya become a romantic item.”

    [question about the hints for Jon/Arya in the second and third book, the comparing Ygritte and Arya, which wouldn’t be there if GRRM had made up the romance for the outline]

    You know, I don’t think it’s a reference for that [for romance]. It’s a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It’s like someone who reminds you of, you know… Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn’t put him off because he is used to that.”

    As the story had gone in the show and in the books so far, I’d personally find a Jon/Arya hook-up strange (but I think there’d at least be more basis for it than Jon/Sansa) because I don’t think the sibling feelings go away when two people find out they’re not as closely related or related at all (ie. finding out people are adopted). In the outline, sort of like Cersei and Jaime, I think there had always been romantic feelings between Jon and Arya and it didn’t just develop later on — but I don’t think these type of feelings were ever present in the books or the show.

    With Jon and Sansa, I think it represents another type of sibling relationship. People aren’t always close to their siblings growing up — but I don’t think closeness is required for a sibling relationship. You have your friends, sometimes those friends may be your siblings, and you have your siblings. The Jon and Sansa relationship in the show felt to be a fairly realistic representation of siblings who don’t often get along, who have issues between them, who clash — but can still love each other as siblings.

    But even there, I don’t think Jon and Sansa was the healthiest sibling relationship either because there were so many transparency and issues between the two.

  546. Ten Bears,

    Gah, my first paragraph leaves off with an unfinished sentence fragment (“that Ygritte reminding Jon of Arya wasn’t intende”) — please disregard!

    To add, whenever Jon finds that Ygritte reminds him of Arya, it’s in terms of some of Ygritte’s character traits — yet, the Ygritte-Arya connections aren’t framed in a sexy attraction light (in Jon’s head). Instead, they seem to be — per GRRM’s terms — what Jon finds admirable in somebody. Arya’s name is nowhere near their sex scenes or when Jon is describing what he finds sexy about Ygritte 😉

    I think it’s sort of like the notion of people falling in love with those who remind them of a parent — it’s not the parent they’re falling in love with and it doesn’t mean they’re in love with this parent. I think it’s just about a trait they like in people and are drawn to, have good (or familiar) associations with. For Jon with Ygritte, he’s endeared by Ygritte’s fierceness, willfulness and stubbornness and these traits remind him of Arya, Jon’s closest sibling, fellow outsider, and one of his most important relationships..

    Yet in the show, these Ygritte-Arya book connections aren’t made or vocalized.

    Though, it seems a dose of lethal is something Jon does find kind of hot based on his some of his Val passages:

    All the same, the wildling princess was not beloved of her gaolers. She scorned them all as “kneelers,” and had thrice attempted to escape. When one man-at-arms grew careless in her presence she had snatched his dagger from its sheath and stabbed him in the neck. Another inch to the left and he might have died.

    Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father’s name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead he had chosen honor. A bastard’s sort of honor.

    And I think Jon is attracted to action girls:

    Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

    But I don’t think it means he’s attracted to Arya or may become attracted to her, they’ve already grown up as siblings and view each other without a torrent of sexual attraction occurring underneath (vis a vis Jaime/Cersei). I think Jon’s close bond with Arya is a reason why Jon finds some of these traits admirable in the first place because they’ve been part of one of Jon’s most important relationships in the series and Jon has positive associations with them — sort of like how some people fall for people who share traits with a parent they’re close to.

  547. Adrianacandle,

    Another typo (deleting ‘so many transparency and’)

    *But even there, I don’t think Jon and Sansa was the healthiest (sibling) relationship either because there were *some pretty big issues between the two. (Some of which TB referenced)

  548. Adrianacandle,

    ”Though, it seems a dose of lethal is something Jon does find kind of hot…”

    “A dose of lethal.” I like that. I’m stealing it. 😃

    👸🏻🔪

  549. Adrianacandle,

    And I think Jon is attracted to action girls:

    “Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.”

    But I don’t think it means he’s attracted to Arya or may become attracted to her, they’ve already grown up as siblings and view each other without a torrent of sexual attraction occurring underneath (vis a vis Jaime/Cersei). I think Jon’s close bond with Arya is a reason why Jon finds some of these traits admirable in the first place because they’ve been part of one of Jon’s most important relationships in the series and Jon has positive associations with them — sort of like how some people fall for people who share traits with a parent they’re close to.

    ——
    1. But aren’t “admirable traits” a solid basis for falling in love?

    2. Just like with show! Gendry, who kind of dismissed androgynous tomboy Arya when she was a kid in S1e10 – mid S3 only to look at her in a much different light 5+ years later, Jon would understandably have no creepy attraction to the little sister he left behind. However, Jon nka Aegon Targaryen could conceivably have a different reaction to the grown up, Many-Faced Goddess he encounters many years later.

    I’m just spitballing here. 😋
    I figure Jon/Aegon 💕 Warrior Princess Arya makes as much sense as “Jonsa.”

  550. Ten Bears,

    1. But aren’t “admirable traits” a solid basis for falling in love?

    Sometimes — but it’s not that alone. Jon definitely has a type — it’s for action girls and the girls he is attracted to have all been action girls. Yet Jon’s not in love with every spearwife he sees and doesn’t develop an attraction to each one, despite them possessing these traits too (and some reminding him of Ygritte in the books).

    My mum is quite a bit like my dad’s mum, the parent with whom my dad was close and the parent who my dad admired (he didn’t really admire his own dad so much), but my dad was never in love with his mum. I know the traits he loved about his mother and found comfort in are ones he loves in my mum as well and that she reminds him of her — but the natures of their relationships are (thankfully) pretty different.

    (Although, I’d personally love to think of my parents as just a nice, professional business relationship and nothing more and I am returning to that place now!)

    2. Just like with show! Gendry, who kind of dismissed androgynous tomboy Arya when she was a kid in S1e10 – mid S3 only to look at her in a much different light 5+ years later, Jon would understandably have no creepy attraction to the little sister he left behind. However, Jon nka Aegon Targaryen could conceivably have a different reaction to the grown up, Many-Faced Goddess he encounters many years later.

    Unlike Gendry, who only knew Arya for about a year and dismissed her as a kid in that time (because he was), Jon grew up with and knew Arya as his little sister for his whole life and developed that relationship with her from the outset. He’s always been her big brother, ever since she was a baby. And he was raised as her sibling, always referring to Arya as “little sister” and viewing her as such.

    I mean, older siblings — when they find out they’re adopted or their little siblings grow up hot, even if they have traits that they find admirable — don’t typically develop the urge to bone them. Gendry never knew Arya as his little sister, he wasn’t raised with her as such. He knew her as a kid. With Jon, he knew Arya as his little sister and he was the closest to her out of all his sibling relationships, even more than Robb. They were two outsiders in the Stark family, they looked alike, they were in-sync, and the only ones who could best understand each other growing up. But they developed a close sibling bond, which I think would be hard to turn into a sexual attraction.

    I figure Jon/Aegon 💕 Warrior Princess Arya makes as much sense as “Jonsa.”

    I think it has more of a basis than Jonsa for the reasons you said — but I don’t think it means Jon is in love with or would fall in love with somebody who was raised as a sibling his whole life and who he regarded as such. That’d be pretty difficult to get past.

    Now, if Jon and Arya were raised apart (say Lyanna and Rhaegar lived, raised Jon in King’s Landing while Arya was raised in Winterfell, and they were raised apart without the sibling connection, yes), potentially so, yeah. Arya is a lot like Lyanna — but again, I don’t think that this would mean Jon is in love with his mother. It’d be why he has positive associations with those traits and why he finds them comforting/familiar.

    In contrast, I don’t see much that Jon would be drawn to in Sansa. She is the opposite of what he describes in that Val passage above. And she was raised as his sister too for nearly his whole life. That’s hard to get past.

    Add to that, Sansa resembles the woman who made Jon feel so much like an outside from his earliest memory, took after her and her behavior toward Jon, and Jon felt that differentiation (that Sansa regarded him less than her trueborn siblings). There’s no indication Jon feels any ill-will toward Sansa and she wasn’t nearly as disdainful to Jon as Catelyn was — plus Sansa was a child being taught to act this way in accordance with Westerosi views, mindsets, and behaviors (anti-bastard). And in ASOS, when Jon says he loved all his siblings, he lists Sansa too and he does have a good memory of her like he does with all his siblings. He doesn’t regard her as less of a sibling but they were never close due to his bastardy.

    Sansa fit into Westerosi society perfectly, she checked off all the right boxes, behaved exactly in ways Westerosi society approved of — and it’s this same society that rejected Jon because of Jon’s bastardy. And Sansa did look down on him for it. He does feel hurt that she’d only ever regard him as her half-brother.

    So I think Jonrya has more of a basis than Jonsa… but I think that sibling association would be hard to get past.

  551. Adrianacandle,

    Typos!

    * Unlike Gendry, who only knew Arya for about a year and dismissed her as a kid in that time (because *she was)
    * Add to that, Sansa resembles the woman who made Jon feel so much like an *outsider from his earliest memory[…]

  552. Adrianacandle,

    • Well, GRRM is the one who first brought up
    Jon 💕 Arya, albeit in an early outline.

    • I wonder: (a) If he might go back to it; and (b) If he might in any way have been influenced by the portrayal of Arya by Maisie Williams?

    • Semi-related question: Was the Gendry-Arya sex scene in S8e2 just “fan service” or thrown in for shock value? I wasn’t sure what to make of it. I was surprised they “went there.” I thought it was tastefully done, though I am still kind of curious about the decision to include it.

  553. Ten Bears,

    • Well, GRRM is the one who first brought up
    Jon 💕 Arya, albeit in an early outline.

    • I wonder: (a) If he might go back to it; and (b) If he might in any way have been influenced by the portrayal of Arya by Maisie Williams?

    Personally, I don’t expect GRRM will — while some things align between the outline and the published books, most of the stories have undergone significant changes (not just with Jon and Arya but with nearly every character in the outline). It makes sense to me that GRRM was simply making stuff up for an outline he didn’t want to write but was required to (the reasons for which I think sound very GRRM — he tends to figure things out as he goes along, he hates writing outlines, and he just needed to bang one out to get to the next step to win over publishers for ASOIAF). Even per D&D when they met with GRRM, they explained he still hadn’t figured everything out about his ending while he was writing ADWD:

    Benioff: Around season 3, we went to visit George R. R. Martin and he writes and he kind of figures things out as he’s writing. When we went to visit him back then, and this was while he was still writing book 5, he didn’t know yet where the story was going and he knew a few key things and one of those key things was that the final king at the end of the story would be Bran… only that Bran would be king.

    And it seems GRRM did totally discard the outline when writing the books. There’s zero indication Tyrion is in love with Arya either, per the Jon-Arya-Tyrion tortured love triangle scenario. Benjen is definitely not LC, there’s no Jaime-Cersei in the outline. Catelyn doesn’t seek Jon and Benjen’s help at the Wall, isn’t captured by Mance only to be killed by an Other later. Dany isn’t out for vengeance against Khal Drogo for killing her brother, Sansa isn’t willingly picking Joffrey and their son over her family, Jaime doesn’t go on a killing spree to become king himself (in which he does take the Iron Throne), Tyrion isn’t burning WF to the ground in a battle he and Jaime are fighting against Robb, etc.

    • Semi-related question: Was the Gendry-Arya sex scene in S8e2 just “fan service” or thrown in for shock value? I wasn’t sure what to make of it. I was surprised they “went there.” I thought it was tastefully done, though I am still kind of curious about the decision to include it.

    I don’t really know. I haven’t thought much of it. It seemed to me Arya wanted this experience before dying in battle against the undead and perhaps it might be something that’ll happen in the books too (and maybe under different circumstances?)… Then again, Arya is still only 11 as of ADWD while Gendry would be 15/16. If Arya is 12 in TWOW and 13 in ADOS and Gendry is 16/17 in TWOW and 18/19 in ADOS, I would think the age gap would still be a bit too wide at that point.

    But…

    Dany is a mere 13 when she’s sold to a late-20s Khal Drogo and that whole thing begins.

    Lyanna was only 15/16 when a 21/22-year old Rhaegar took off with her.

    So maybe a 13-year old Arya and an 18-year Gendry might not be so odd.

  554. Adrianacandle,

    Quote correction!

    Benioff: Around season 3, we went to visit George R. R. Martin and he writes and he kind of figures things out as he’s writing. When we went to visit him back then, and this was while he was still writing book 5, he didn’t know yet where the story was going and he knew a few key things and one of those key things was that the final king at the end of the story would be Bran.*

    (*Eliminated “only that Bran would be king.” These words weren’t said by Benioff, it was a left over sentence fragment from my own thoughts which got caught up in the quote coding)

  555. Ten Bears:
    Adrianacandle,

    “A dose of lethal.” I like that. I’m stealing it. 😃

    👸🏻🔪

    I just saw this! 😆♥

    In other news, I finally found an apartment and will be moving to a house (apartment) …. with a red door (ala Dany’s red door house!) 🙂 🙂 🙂

    But no lemon trees in Calgary though, just a brick building in my bedroom window’s view. There are lilac bushes though and a willow tree!

    (And an Ikea nearby!!!)

  556. Ten Bears,

    I was surprised they “went there.” I thought it was tastefully done, though I am still kind of curious about the decision to include it.

    I don’t know, but it did not surprise me at all. The two characters liked each other, had shared a perilous journey, gotten separated, and were now together for The Last Night On Earth, for all they knew. All of that is incentive for humans to mate.

    I liked they way the writers, director, and actors went about it, though. Gendry hesitates, and Arya makes it pretty clear he hasn’t much of a choice in the matter. It’s a great inversion to the usual patriarchal sexism of Westeros, in which a woman’s body belongs first to her father (or older males in her family), then to her husband. Arya’s a better fighter than Gendry is, and she’s not merely a highborn, but A Stark In Winterfell, whilst he’s a bastard nobody from the South somewhere. Not only can she physically force herself on him if she wants, there will be absolutely no negative consequences for her doing so; whereas if he dares to resist her at all, no one will defend him, either physically or legally. Gendry had no real agency to refuse consent, and he knew it. For those reasons, I hope the whole scene made viewers somewhat uncomfortable.

  557. Adrianacandle,

    In other news, I finally found an apartment and will be moving to a house (apartment) …. with a red door (ala Dany’s red door house!)”

    I knew it. You’re a secret Targaryen.

  558. Ten Bears: I knew it. You’re a secret Targaryen.

    Oh, I wish! To have that heat tolerance…

    But I have rage-destroyed art pieces with fire 😉

    (Or is that more an “artist” cliche? One’s own “art” pieces bring agony upon becoming testaments to one’s failures and lack of talent…. burn it. That is super hard to do with digital media though — USBs don’t burn well and there’s nothing violent about dragging a file to a virtual trash can.)

  559. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ”I liked they way the writers, director, and actors went about it, though. Gendry hesitates, and Arya makes it pretty clear he hasn’t much of a choice in the matter. It’s a great inversion to the usual patriarchal sexism of Westeros, in which a woman’s body belongs first to her father (or older males in her family), then to her husband. Arya’s a better fighter than Gendry is, and she’s not merely a highborn, but A Stark In Winterfell, whilst he’s a bastard nobody from the South somewhere. Not only can she physically force herself on him if she wants, there will be absolutely no negative consequences for her doing so; whereas if he dares to resist her at all, no one will defend him, either physically or legally. Gendry had no real agency to refuse consent, and he knew it. For those reasons, I hope the whole scene made viewers somewhat uncomfortable.”

    • Oh, I liked the way the writers, directors and actors went about it too. They could’ve cut away… but didn’t.

    • I did not sense that Arya made it clear that Gendry “hasn’t much of a choice in the matter.”
    I just thought she had him back on his heels and stammering, with her direct, forthright interrogation + seduction. Nor did I perceive that Gendry “ha[d] no real agency to refuse consent and he knew it.” He was way more than willing, as was made obvious in their S8e1 flirting. (“You look…good.”)

    • I don’t think her “highborn” status had anything to do with it. (Certainly didn’t stop Sandor from calling her “a cold little bitch” to her face. 🙂)

    • Now, what would have “made viewers somewhat uncomfortable” is if Arya had been a little more stern … like Game of Faces stern…. during her interrogation of Gendry. Something like:

    A: “Were you with other girls? In King’s Landing?
    G: “Y…Yes.”
    A: “How many? One? Two? Twenty?”
    G: “I…I didn’t keep count.”
    A: “A lie.” [Thwack! hits him with stick] “Yes you did.”

    – from S8e2, Fifty Shades of Gendry.

  560. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending:
    Ten Bears,

    I was surprised they “went there.” I thought it was tastefully done, though I am still kind of curious about the decision to include it.

    I don’t know, but it did not surprise me at all. The two characters liked each other, had shared a perilous journey, gotten separated, and were now together for The Last Night On Earth, for all they knew. All of that is incentive for humans to mate.

    I liked they way the writers, director, and actors went about it, though. Gendry hesitates, and Arya makes it pretty clear he hasn’t much of a choice in the matter. It’s a great inversion to the usual patriarchal sexism of Westeros, in which a woman’s body belongs first to her father (or older males in her family), then to her husband. Arya’s a better fighter than Gendry is, and she’s not merely a highborn, but A Stark In Winterfell, whilst he’s a bastard nobody from the South somewhere. Not only can she physically force herself on him if she wants, there will be absolutely no negative consequences for her doing so; whereas if he dares to resist her at all, no one will defend him, either physically or legally. Gendry had no real agency to refuse consent, and he knew it. For those reasons, I hope the whole scene made viewers somewhat uncomfortable.

    I thought I would check back on this thread, since nothing much was happening on the newest article…

    Well, D&D didn’t choose to have Arya hold her spear to Gendry’s throat. It wasn’t forced in my mind. When watching the scene, I thought Gendry had a choice in the matter. Their first kiss seemed a bit awkward, but Gendry quickly warmed up to the idea. As Arya said, she’s not the “Red Woman”. The Red Woman tied Gendry down. Arya pushed him down a bit, but Gendry just seemed more surprised and amazed at what was happening. She didn’t seem threatening to me.

    Arya/Gendry was definitely not going to be a talking relationship filled with hours of stimulating conversation about their common interests. Their banter was physical. Arya had her seductive walk. Everything was physical with them. Gendry could hardly put two words together. Arya was much less of a talker nowadays as Sandor pointed out just minutes before.

    Sandor taught Arya about the “way things are” in the world of Westeros. It was a cold world where people only survived watching out for themselves and plotting for power. Arya thought there was a good possibility she would die. She wanted to experience a physical relationship, and she always had an attraction to Gendry. I see their scene alot like Yara’s shore leave scene. Yara was even more aggressive than Arya. Yara was also a powerful woman who broke the stereotypes. Before going into battle, she was going to fully live life. She was hoping to influence Theon to embrace life again without success, but Yara was going to make the most of her situation and enjoy living one last night before her life may end in the morning in battle. I didn’t hear anyone getting upset with Yara’s shore leave scene.

    The backlash on Arya/Gendry had much to do with people watching Arya grow up. Many fans I believe still saw her as 11 years old from season 1. They saw Gendry/Arya more as brother and sister. (Well, being brother and sister never stopped Game of Thrones did it!). I always thought there was a good possibility the two of them could get together fulfilling King Robert’s desires to have a wedding to join two houses. Arya was not going to play into the role of a “Lady”, so in the end she decided to go her own way.

    It’s funny that in my mind, I don’t remember much about their sex scene. The image that is crystal clear is Arya’s cold stare during the montage. She was in bed next to Gendry, and Gendry seemed like the last thing on her mind. Her cold stare went through me as Jenny’s song played. I don’t know what Maisie was thinking at that moment. I could see the Faceless woMan she had become. I could see the “coldness” that Sandor said was keeping her alive. Her moment of comfort with Gendry had passed, and the reality of what was going to happen kicked in. When I think of the scene, I see her first awkward kiss, and then my brain goes right to her cold chilling stare. After her brief kiss with the living, she was ready to face death again.

  561. Tron79,

    ….Well, D&D didn’t choose to have Arya hold her spear to Gendry’s throat. It wasn’t forced in my mind. When watching the scene, I thought Gendry had a choice in the matter. Their first kiss seemed a bit awkward, but Gendry quickly warmed up to the idea. As Arya said, she’s not the “Red Woman”. The Red Woman tied Gendry down. …

    Right. That’s how I perceived it too. If there had been any coercion or physical restraint of Gendry, or anything reminiscent of his bondage + leeches encounter with the Red Woman, fans would’ve been howling about D&D turning ASOI&F into ASOS&M.

  562. Tron79,

    Arya pushed him down a bit, but Gendry just seemed more surprised and amazed at what was happening. She didn’t seem threatening to me.

    Arya/Gendry was definitely not going to be a talking relationship filled with hours of stimulating conversation about their common interests. Their banter was physical. Arya had her seductive walk…

    • Right. “Surprised and amazed.” Any normal guy in Gendry’s shoes, in any real or fictional setting, would be thinking to himself, “OMG. I can’t believe this is happening!”

    • I did, however, feel that enough banter preceded their hookup (e.g., joking about calling her “My Lady,” talking about weapons, complementing each other, demonstrating their respective skills), so that by the time Arya said “I want to know what it’s like before that happens” it didn’t come out of left field.

    • “Seductive walk” is right. And I thought Arya’s little spin move + mischievous smile as she walked away at the end of their S8e1 scene was quite alluring.

    • I’ve said this before: Although my inner fanboy would have enjoyed a “makeover” scene (Arya with her hair down, in a flowing dress) I’m glad the showrunners maintained the portrayal of Arya as Warrior Princess. She did not need a makeover to be beautiful- or to entice Gendry.

  563. Tron79,

    …It’s funny that in my mind, I don’t remember much about their sex scene. The image that is crystal clear is Arya’s cold stare during the montage. She was in bed next to Gendry, and Gendry seemed like the last thing on her mind. Her cold stare went through me as Jenny’s song played. I don’t know what Maisie was thinking at that moment.

    Yeah, I didn’t know what to make of Arya’s stare during the closing montage of S8e2; she was wide awake as Gendry snoozed contentedly next to her. What was she thinking at that moment? There have been many theories, e.g.:

    https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2019-04/25/17/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-02/sub-buzz-25095-1556229385-1.jpg?downsize=900:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

  564. Tron79:
    Now I’m curious. What were some of the other theories?

    The theories for Arya’s wide-awake stare while Gendry’s sound asleep range from the silly to the serious. Some that I’ve read include:

    (a) Despite his experience, Gendry’s performance was …. underwhelming. He didn’t get the job done, so to speak.

    (b) Along the same lines, Arya’s look meant: “Wait. That’s it? That’s what all the fuss is all about? Meh.”

    (c) Arya is preoccupied with her imminent face-off against Death itself. (Like she said [paraphrasing], “I know Death. He’s got many faces. I look forward to seeing this one.”)

    (d) Notwithstanding reclaiming some of her humanity and experiencing human emotions again, she’s still got some of the steely-eyed cold-heartedness in her.

    (e) Bad inside joke by showrunners playing on the stereotype of a post-coital man conking out like a beached whale while his partner stays wide awake.

    (f) Arya’s look coincides with the lyrics of the “Jenny of Oldstones” song playing as the camera lingers on her face. (I’d have to rewatch the scene to listen to the words; I forget where I saw this theory, and what the lyrics were…)*

    (g) Something about the significance of Arya under Gendry’s cloak?

    (h) Another theory (sorry, I forgot the specifics) harkening back to S1 Ned & Robert about joining their houses, only not by psycho incest bastard Joffrey & Sansa Stark, but Robert’s real son Gendry & Arya Stark.

    (i) Another theory – again, I forgot the specifics, though I really liked it – about Arya being revealed as “the pretty sister” after years of everyone describing Sansa that way. (Not sure what her stare had to do with this.)

    (j) Arya, apprehensive about losing more loved ones, is haunted by images she had previously been able to suppress, and now can’t sleep: A callback to her confessions to Yoren in S2 when she could not sleep. (Interesting theory, though I doubt that was intended.)*

    (k) Let me throw in another one: Arya’s death stare is meant to remind us that “a dose of lethal”™️ can be hot.
    ™️ arianacandle (2020)

    * I have not looked to see if the S8e2 script is available, and if it offers any hints.

  565. Ten Bears,

    Correction to 8:32 am comment:
    ***

    “• I did, however, feel that enough banter preceded their hookup (e.g., joking about calling her “My Lady,” talking about weapons, complimenting each other, demonstrating their respective skills), so that by the time Arya said “I want to know what it’s like before that happens” it didn’t come out of left field.”

  566. Ten Bears:
    Ten Bears,

    Correction to 8:32 am comment:***

    “• I did, however, feel that enough banter preceded their hookup (e.g., joking about calling her “My Lady,” talking about weapons, complimenting each other, demonstrating their respective skills), so that by the time Arya said “I want to know what it’s like before that happens” it didn’t come out of left field.”

    Ok the only theory that resonated with me was that her stare went with the Lyrics of the song

    “Sorrow and pain” I just watched the clip again.

    The spun her around on the damp old stones. Spun away all her sorrow and pain…. and she never wanted to leave. Perhaps Gendry helped her forget her sorrow and pain for a moment but now it’s back.

    My theory is that she’s not thinking about bragging that she’s seen death. She just knows she will be facing death very soon and she can see death’s face coming. She’s not thinking about Gendry at all at this point. Her time with Gendry has ended. Yes perhaps as the song said she’s remembering her father and all the sorrow and pain she’s gone through up to this point. But I think it’s more she knows who’s coming and she can see his face.

  567. Don´t know whether it´s funny or sad having to watch half a dozen die-hard nerds here obsessing over a series that never will be finished. To each their own, I guess.

  568. flintstonewielder,

    That’s a bit harsh FSW – maybe when the quarantine is over people will spend less time on the internet. If people are working from home a 5 minute visit here isn’t that much out of the 24 hours in a day (even counting the time we spend sleeping). Nobody’s pointing a gun at your head forcing you to visit this site.

  569. flintstonewielder:
    Don´t know whether it´s funny or sad having to watch half a dozen die-hard nerds here obsessing over a series that never will be finished. To each their own, I guess.

    Interesting comment… I will admit to obsessing, but aren’t you in the same boat since you’re interested enough to be reading this thread? Maybe you are just frustrated like the rest of us that the long night continues waiting for TWOW. That being said, I would like to see us delve into more areas of discussion. It’s tough for those running WotW since there is a dry spell of any hard news regarding the prequel or TWOW. But we do have some talented people here who know an incredible amount of information about the show and the books. Without hard news, we could have a month about each season and address topics related to that season… August could be season 1 month, for example, and there could be many topics related to season 1. There are some of us that are sci-fi/fantasy fans in general and like discussing other shows, but I like to always tie it into GOT somehow. HDM is a good example. I like to compare Arya’s journey with Lyra’s. Their names are even very close in spelling!

    I would say I’m more a 10 times a day person instead of 5 minutes a day… If nothing new is going on here, I may only check quickly… I will say that Ten Bears has lightened my mood when faced with the world we are living in right now.
    Ten Bears, did you ever use Paula Abdul’s “Cold Hearted” for any musical interludes? The lyrics don’t totally fit anyone, since it talks about a “Player”…but it’s still a good song..

    Oh, and I guess I’m a bit obsessed, but I just decided while writing this to make a cool Arya with the Alice in Wonderland Danny Elfman soundtrack underneath…(and maybe some good comparison Alice clips to go with some favorite Arya clips)… Stay tuned…. later today hopefully….

    Also, in this time of COVID, it’s nice to have a friendly group to talk to with some common interests and a shared love for the books and shows.

  570. Tron79,

    …did you ever use Paula Abdul’s “Cold Hearted” for any musical interludes? The lyrics don’t totally fit anyone, since it talks about a “Player”…but it’s still a good song..

    Never heard of it. I’m going to check it out now, though. 🎶🙂

    Oh, and I guess I’m a bit obsessed, but I just decided while writing this to make a cool Arya with the Alice in Wonderland Danny Elfman soundtrack underneath…(and maybe some good comparison Alice clips to go with some favorite Arya clips)… Stay tuned…. later today hopefully…

    An Arya/Alice in Wonderland mashup? I can’t wait!!!!

  571. Ten Bears,

    OK. So I guess I’m one of the obsessed people…. Here’s my Arya / Alice mashup video…
    My only regret is I didn’t have 1920 X 1080 for everything so I had to make it 640 X 480.. uggg… Maybe when I have another day I can find all the original clips… Alice and Wonderland is tougher to find online… This was a ton of fun for me to hear the Danny Elfman track behind the action… Sorry Ten Bears if you’re not as into the music part…

    Enjoy………………………………………….. Alice by the way ends sailing away.. That was the hardest clip to find… only one person took a shot of their TV…

  572. Tron79,

    I’ve got a new one coming… Part of the Alice soundtrack was bugging me during the Arya Night King sequence….. Hold on…a new link is coming…

  573. I haven’t changed my mind about what I *think* would be the best thing to do: Admit defeat, acknowledge that you can’t find a good way to the ending you decided long ago (We all know D&D didn’t, would have been better if they never got the ending and had to make up their own) and have an extensive Q&A outlining your thoughts.

    Obviously, it would be awesome to be proved wrong by two great books but I’m not holding my breath to put it mildly.

  574. schoolbook:
    I haven’t changed my mind about what I *think* would be the best thing to do: Admit defeat, acknowledge that you can’t find a good way to the ending you decided long ago (We all know D&D didn’t, would have been better if they never got the ending and had to make up their own) and have an extensive Q&A outlining your thoughts.

    Obviously, it would be awesome to be proved wrong by two great books but I’m not holding my breath to put it mildly.

    going with my Alice and Wonderland theme today….

    “Alice laughed: “There’s no use trying,” she said; “one can’t believe impossible things.” “I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”

    I don’t think finishing TWOW is an impossible task, so I do think he will finish it.
    I have less hope for ADOS, but I will be happy to see where he takes everyone in TWOW, even if ADOS is only a glimpse through the looking glass…

  575. Adrianacandle:
    Tron79,

    Wow! Great job on these, Tron!

    Thanks. It really gets to me at the end part. It’s funny that the only Alice ending with the butterfly clip on the ship was flickery, since someone just took it off their TV, but I absolutely love the flicker and the way that part looks.
    I still want to change some volume levels. The Night King soundtrack needs to be louder but I had to get up from my chair and leave it be for while.

  576. Tron79,

    It really gets to me at the end part. It’s funny that the only Alice ending with the butterfly clip on the ship was flickery, since someone just took it off their TV, but I absolutely love the flicker and the way that part looks.

    Sometimes, the best things are unintended like this — you worked with it well!

    I still want to change some volume levels. The Night King soundtrack needs to be louder but I had to get up from my chair and leave it be for while.

    I found balancing sound levels one of the most challenging parts when I was editing, especially when you have VOs — you want the bg music loud enough to be heard but not so loud it overcomes the other tracks.

    Sometimes, especially with music that isn’t intended to accompany a VO, that can be really difficult. My issue was the pitch of music box tracks being used with the animations I did under the narration. When those tracks hit the high notes, it would be absolutely ear-piercing. It was suggested I lower it by 7db but the drive I had my editing files on had been destroyed -_-

  577. Adrianacandle,

    Yeah I know what you’re saying about those volume levels with narration. My daughter is working hard on making sure nothing clips in all of those choir videos with 20+ choir members. She’s much more talented than me on all this editing but I know enough to have some fun with it. And I got to look at my Arya mouse mat the whole time my hand was hurting from the edits. It was nice seeing a lot of these arya moments together.

  578. Tron79: And I got to look at my Arya mouse mat the whole time my hand was hurting from the edits. It was nice seeing a lot of these arya moments together.

    I thought you made some great connections between Arya and Tim Burton’s Alice! 🙂

    Also, I love Danny Elfman’s soundtracks. I think my favourite one is this from Edward Scissorhands (“Ice Dance” — this is a live performance featuring The Metropole Orkest, Nederlands Concertkoor, and Noortje Herlaar as the lead vocalist):

  579. Adrianacandle: I thought you made some great connections between Arya and Tim Burton’s Alice! 🙂

    Also, I love Danny Elfman’s soundtracks. I think my favourite one is this from Edward Scissorhands (“Ice Dance” — this is a live performance featuring The Metropole Orkest, Nederlands Concertkoor, and Noortje Herlaar as the lead vocalist):

    Love this! Thanks so much.

  580. Tron79: Love this! Thanks so much.

    I’m glad you enjoyed it! I really love seeing all the instruments come together and things like when the cymbals crash or when the drum is being pounded 🙂

    I love all of Danny Elfman’s stuff.

  581. Hello fellow Nerds, are we sad or funny today (reference to a post slightly upthread)?

    Tron79,

    Tron, I never had kids but I swear the youngsters nowadays drink in technical ability with their mothers’ milk (or they come being tech savvy from the womb). I’m still trying to get fully to terms with the secondhand Android phone I bought last October. I saw something online where a lady was offering classes in ‘citizen journalism’ on a smartphone for a price (quite a hefty price). I think I’ll give that a pass. I had thought about trying to do an online resource for shorthand dictations (there are some out there but there’s a dearth because it’s a declining skill) but I still need the technical know-how and also to ascertain whether copyright would remain with Yours Sincerely or whether it goes to the people who make the website/podcast.

  582. Dame of Mercia,

    Sorry – regarding my previous post – I meant would copyright remain with me or the people who HOST the website/podcast. If I do ever get round to designing a website – or use a host’s template or whatever – I don’t think I’ll use Divi because I find their ads so irritating.

  583. Dame of Mercia:
    Hello fellow Nerds, are we sad or funny today (reference to a post slightly upthread)?

    Tron79,

    Tron, I never had kids but I swear the youngsters nowadays drink in technical ability with their mothers’ milk (or they come being tech savvy from the womb).I’m still trying to get fully to terms with the secondhand Android phone I bought last October.I saw something online where a lady was offering classes in ‘citizen journalism’ on a smartphone for a price (quite a hefty price).I think I’ll give that a pass.I had thought about trying to do an online resource for shorthand dictations (there are some out there but there’s a dearth because it’s a declining skill) but I still need the technical know-how and also to ascertain whether copyright would remain with Yours Sincerely or whether it goes to the people who make the website/podcast.

    You have such an amazing skill with shorthand! I’m not a youngster. I still feel a bit like one, but I’m almost hitting the big 60 (I still have about a half a year to go). When I was in high school, they offered typing. I can’t tell you how valuable that class has been to me. I’m using it right now, because I’m not looking at the keys while I type. My oldest had a class called “keyboarding”, but my 13 year old students say they don’t even offer keyboarding anymore… I remember in college using lots of whiteout…. I would probably take your “shorthand” online course or use the resource. I also always wanted to learn how to use one of those court reporting machines!

    I’m not a lawyer, so it’s hard to say about the copyright… I would think that if you created the content and published it online, then the copyright is yours. You just have to make sure to put a copyright statement on the site, and if you want to go all the way, you can fill out the copyright forms and send them in. In theory, your material is copyrighted as soon as you publish it in some medium and put a notice on it. I’ve written a number of songs, and you are supposed to send in the copyright forms as well as post your copyright on your sheet music. https://www.copyright.gov/forms/
    is the main site I think… and places like legalzoom may make things simpler…

    I don’t think the copyright would go with the people who make the website (or podcast) unless you give them “publisher” rights. There are different kinds of rights, and again I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve been through it a few times.. You actually want to be your own publisher, since publishing rights can be more lucrative. You can hire a web designer and just pay them for the job. Perhaps they may want rights on the design, but they wouldn’t get rights to the content. Also, the web host wouldn’t get rights, since they are just the platform, even though you may need to check out their Terms of Use to see what they say, and choose your web host accordingly…

    Of course, it would be a nice resource for people to have even if it didn’t generate alot of money for you. It’s hard to say on the Internet what gets noticed. You’re more likely to make money from a Cat playing piano unfortunately.

    Regarding tech, I was lucky because I started when computers first came out, and in those old days they had magazines with programming code written in them. One was called “Compute Magazine”, and the fun was that you would enter in 3 or 4 magazine pages full of programming code and then hit the button to see what it did!! What fun!!
    It was a great way to learn, and yes, I’m one of those nerds the poster talked about.. Speaking of “posters”, I had a poster in my old room growing up of a double floppy disk drive that I dreamed of buying one day, which I did!! So stick with it… if you are making some sense of your android phone you are halfway there. I’m still using my iphone, which is much simpler, but you do get some more advanced features with some of the new android phones. We’re doing a “virtual choir” project right now, and all my choir members with android phones have trouble sending me the highest quality file… We have some choir members who never used computers and never delved into the details of using their phone… They are getting better at it, and they stuck with it. We did lose a few choir members (I think 3 or 4) to the technology. They decided not to continue… It can get frustrating. Stick with it, and I hope to see your shorthand course/resource one day!

  584. FYI – EXCERPTS from Schedule
    Virtual Comic Con
    per EW.com

    “Schedule of Comic-Con 2020 Panels | EW.com”
    https://ew.com/events/comic-con/

    ——————

    on Thursday, July 23, 2020:

    His Dark Materials, 1 p.m.: Stars Dafne Keen, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Ruth Wilson, Andrew Scott, Ariyon Bakare, and Amir Wilson will discuss highlights of His Dark Materials season 1 and preview what’s in store for season 2 with executive producers Jane Tranter and Jack Thorne.

    ——-

    The New Mutants, 2 p.m.: Director Josh Boone’s long-(long-long-long-long-)delayed X-Men horror spin-off gets a panel with the filmmaker and stars Maisie Williams, Anya Taylor-Joy, Charlie Heaton, Blu Hunt, and Henry Zaga.

    #ASNAWP 👸🏻🔪
    #Wolfsbane 🐺
    #Dani 💕 Wolf Girl

    ——————————
    Friday July 24, 2020

    Zoom with Joss Whedon, 5 p.m.: A panel description is not available.


    on Saturday July 25, 2020

    Guillermo del Toro and Scott Cooper on Antlers and Filmmaking, 1 p.m.: Directors Guillermo del Toro and Scott Cooper in conversation.

    Family Guy, 2 p.m.: Seth MacFarlane, Alex Borstein, Mila Kunis, Seth Green, and executive producers Rich Appel, Alec Sulkin, and Kara Vallow celebrate 350 episodes of Family Guy with a virtual table read!

    ———-

  585. Ten Bears,

    Thanks, Ten Bears!! I’m curious about the HDM panel and the Joss Whedon zoom!

    Tron79: One was called “Compute Magazine”, and the fun was that you would enter in 3 or 4 magazine pages full of programming code and then hit the button to see what it did!! What fun!!

    Wow, so they had just pages full of code to copy and try out? That does sound really cool! Did it say what the code would do? Or was it a surprise?

    To jump in on yours and Dame of Mercia’s conversation…

    You have such an amazing skill with shorthand! I’m not a youngster. I still feel a bit like one, but I’m almost hitting the big 60 (I still have about a half a year to go). When I was in high school, they offered typing. I can’t tell you how valuable that class has been to me. I’m using it right now, because I’m not looking at the keys while I type. My oldest had a class called “keyboarding”, but my 13 year old students say they don’t even offer keyboarding anymore… I remember in college using lots of whiteout…. I would probably take your “shorthand” online course or use the resource. I also always wanted to learn how to use one of those court reporting machines!

    I remember growing up with typing classes from jr kindergarten onward (which would be age 3-4, jr. kindergarten preceded kindergarten in Ontario) and on super old Macs — the kind where you learned home row and everything, learning to type without “hunting and pecking” or looking down at your keyboard. By the time I was in high school, which would be in the 00s, there was talk about getting rid of the typing classes since most students came in already knowing how to type (we were tested for speed and accuracy and 99% of us passed, which gave us an easy credit) but at the time, the typing test was required for our Career Studies course.

    It was a great way to learn, and yes, I’m one of those nerds the poster talked about.

    Me too! 😀

  586. Tron79:
    Here’s the new link… I like this one better…

    I’m replying to myself on this one. I just wanted to comment on a couple spots in my video before it disappears into the ether never to be seen again… (as I said in my previous post, we can’t all post cats playing piano, so some videos only get a couple views where the cats get millions).

    My favorite parts are:
    5:23… the transition with the Alice theme playing over the long night sequence with the Sandor’s face and then the dead bodies falling into the flames… It works so well with the Alice theme and then you get to see my favorite Arya Warrior Princess spear moment that was way too short! Her look at Davos who was watching was classic.

    10:32… transition from the end of Arya killing the Night king to the two goodbye sequences.. Again, I love how the Alice theme seamlessly goes into Alice’s Goodbye with the hatter. I love both Goodbye scenes, even though they are different in tone for sure! Alice has a special relationship with the Hatter as Arya has a special relationship with Sandor. Their relationships are quite different, but both scenes pull at your heart as they say their farewells…

    13:31… the transition from the goodbye to seeing Alice on the ship and then Ayra on her ship… The blue flicker from the TV video someone shot with the butterfly makes me very happy, and then you see Arya…….. and her final smile on the ship is awesome and makes me very happy as well to watch it…

    I do have to give it to Maisie. Her fighting is at a different level than Mia Wasikowska’s.
    The actress that would give Maisie a battle is Saoirse Ronan in her younger days. Saoirse Ronan owns the “A” (assassin) part of ASNAWP from her awesome movie role in Hanna. The TV version doesn’t even compare…

  587. Adrianacandle:
    Ten Bears,

    Thanks, Ten Bears!! I’m curious about the HDM panel and the Joss Whedon zoom!

    Wow, so they had just pages full of code to copy and try out? That does sound really cool! Did it say what the code would do? Or was it a surprise?

    To jump in on yours and Dame of Mercia’s conversation…

    I remember growing up with typing classes from jr kindergarten onward (which would be age 3-4, jr. kindergarten preceded kindergarten in Ontario) and on super old Macs — the kind where you learned home row and everything, learning to type without “hunting and pecking” or looking down at your keyboard. By the time I was in high school, which would be in the 00s, there was talk about getting rid of the typing classes since most students came in already knowing how to type (we were tested for speed and accuracy and 99% of us passed, which gave us an easy credit) but at the time, the typing test was required for our Career Studies course.

    Me too! 😀

    Yes, the articles would tell you what the program did… It would describe the program and get you excited to want to try it! Then you would type in all the code and hopefully not get an error because of typos… I remember most being at least three pages or more of code to type in…

    I’m not sure if my kids learned touch typing. Alot of the kids get it done but don’t actually use touch typing where you don’t have to look at the keys….

  588. Tron79,

    Yes, the articles would tell you what the program did… It would describe the program and get you excited to want to try it! Then you would type in all the code and hopefully not get an error because of typos… I remember most being at least three pages or more of code to type in…

    Do you remember the page and font size? That sounds like a ton of code! And that you’d have to figure out where the error was if it didn’t work!

    I’m not sure if my kids learned touch typing. Alot of the kids get it done but don’t actually use touch typing where you don’t have to look at the keys….

    Is it more like the hunt & peck method rather than home row typing?

    I noticed that a bit too (like with Sister #4 and my cousins born in 98 and 00) but some other kids who were in my student teaching practicums knew home row and utilized it while typing.

  589. Tron79,

    …3:31… the transition from the goodbye to seeing Alice on the ship and then Ayra on her ship… The blue flicker from the TV video someone shot with the butterfly makes me very happy, and then you see Arya…….. and her final smile on the ship is awesome and makes me very happy as well to watch it…

    • That transition to Arya on her ship was excellent. It may also provide a nice segue to my next Musical Interlude/Arya dedication.

    • I really liked your editing of the Arya-Waif chase scene. So much better than Mylod’s.

    • When the monster was chasing Alice and she fell down, I half-expected her to get up and proclaim: “Not today.”

    • The CGI dragon in Alice’s scene really made me appreciate GoT’s far better CGI work.

  590. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    …3:31… the transition from the goodbye to seeing Alice on the ship and then Ayra on her ship… The blue flicker from the TV video someone shot with the butterfly makes me very happy, and then you see Arya…….. and her final smile on the ship is awesome and makes me very happy as well to watch it…

    • That transition to Arya on her ship was excellent. It may also provide a nice segue to my next Musical Interlude/Arya dedication.

    • I really liked your editing of the Arya-Waif chase scene. So much better than Mylod’s.

    • When the monster was chasing Alice and she fell down, I half-expected her to get up and proclaim: “Not today.”

    • The CGI dragon in Alice’s scene really made me appreciate GoT’s far better CGI work.

    Thanks..and oooooh… I just saw a new article posted on WotW about the prequel!!

    I did some editing on the GOT ending scene.. There was alot of Jon in the middle that I had to cut, and you can’t really tell, because it goes right back to the Wolf ship!! I did keep in a couple short things with Jon and Sansa cuz i got a bit lazy… and it was nice seeing them…

    I agree about the CGI differences.

    I was thinking of freezing on the oranges on the steps and breaking to a clip of the Mylod interview when he says he wanted to add some color… I actually cut it before the oranges just for spite i guess… and the jump went really well into Alice’s chase by her “hound” the Bandersnatch

  591. Adriana, the shorthand resource I was thinking of was to put up some dictation pieces for people who already know it because hardly any people learn it from scratch anymore. I hadn’t though of teaching it from scratch. I don’t know of any online lessons from scratch though for Pitman there is this site for people who want to teach themselves (but you’d have to be very dedicated). https://www.long-live-pitmans-shorthand.org.uk/ There’s teeline online https://www.teelineshorthand.org/ though I don’t know that system. This channel seems pretty new about Gregg shorthand and only has about 3 lessons thus far. https://youtu.be/ipAXVnNt9pE Another online beginner’s Gregg lesson https://youtu.be/zqACi8UZllI Stenotyping I don’t know so much about – I did a bit of a Palantype course in the early 2000s but the place doing the distance learning course stopped providing the lessons (and I was hiring the machine from them) and I stopped then because the machine was just to expensive for me to buy. Buying the machine is a significant factor for both stenotypers and palantypists. I don’t know if anywhere teacher Palantype from scratch these days.

    There is a software for speeding up typing called Note-Ed though it’s not applicable Macs and maybe not all Windows though I think it will work with most Windows versions. It isn’t maintained any more but it is free nowadays. The home site anyway http://www.note-ed.org/

    I learned typing on a typewriter of course given my age but I have heard of people learning to touch type by covering the computer keyboard and obviously their hands with a soft cloth so that they can’t see if they look down.

  592. flintstonewielder,

    Why do those people who write high-school textbooks keep including “Kubla Khan” by Samuel Taylor Coleridge? There are many other poems — which were actually finished! — which we could read instead, right? Funny or sad?

    Why does anyone listen to the symphony Schubert didn’t finish? He finished other symphonies, right? Funny or sad?

    schoolbook,

    GRRM eventually might get there, and I happen to believe D&D reached his ending by their shorter path, just fine. Would Game of Thrones been both longer and better if GRRM had provided a complete set of source material, through to the end? I believe so. But we take we we can get, as with the examples given above with other artworks.

  593. Tron79:
    Here’s the new link… I like this one better…

    I’ve got to ask: How did you make the sound (eg voices) come out so crystal clear? I’m watching the Syrio & Arya scene in your video, and I’m amazed at the audio quality. Not only that, but you didn’t drown the voices or sound effects with the background music.

    Really impressive. And from someone who doesn’t hear as well as he used to, I really appreciate it. Thanks again.

  594. Ten Bears: I’ve got to ask: How did you make the sound (eg voices) come out so crystal clear? I’m watching the Syrio & Arya scene in your video, and I’m amazed at the audio quality. Not only that, but you didn’t drown the voices or sound effects with the background music.

    Really impressive. And from someone who doesn’t hear as well as he used to, I really appreciate it. Thanks again.

    Thanks!! And I loved getting to watch the Syrio/Arya scene again. The best part of making these videos is enjoying watching those clips!! I am using Adobe Premiere for a synagogue virtual choir project. My daughter is doing the hard work, but I happen to have it loaded on my computer to do some pre-sound work before I send it to my daughter. It’s not too hard in the program to bring the sound up and down, and they do have some audio effects. I didn’t use any effects on the dialogue though. I just brought it up pretty high and dropped down the background music… Luckily GOT didn’t have any background music during the dialogue…

    I love when Syrio asks her…”Do you pray to the gods..” and Arya/Maisie says… “the old AND the new” as she raises her eyebrow…

    It was a great scene as she finally shows how much better of a swordswoman she’s become, and it’s foreshadowing in the “show AND the books” when Syrio says…”Be quick as a snake or as quiet as a shadow..”… I love that scene!!

  595. Tron79,

    • I wish I knew how to cut and paste scenes together, like the way you were able to splice together Arya’s shipboard scenes from the S8e6 concluding montage in the last minute or so of your video. (Again, with no disrespect to Jon/Kit H or Sansa/Sophie T, I much preferred your uninterrupted presentation of Arya’s scenes to the episode’s quick jumps between the three characters.)

    • Based on your top notch editing, and the rousing “Ice Dance” by Danny Elfman performed by The Metropole Orkest, Nederlands Concertkoor, with Noortje Herlaar as the lead vocalist (linked by arianacandle in her 7/19/20, 4:05 pm comment above), I am tempted to postpone my planned Musical Interlude dedicated to Sandor Clegane, and instead go with an Arya Stark Musical Interlude instead.

    • That Arya Musical Interlude included a link to the S8e6 montage with time counter references to Arya’s shipboard scenes as she prepares to sail away on her direwolf ship. However, watching the unedited montage I linked is kind of distracting from the theme of the Arya Interlude – which includes a song reminiscent of the choral music in the concluding scene of S4e10 as Arya sails away to Braavos, as well as the “Ice Dance” linked by arianacandle.

    I hope you won’t mind if I link to your video instead.
    If so, do you have a YouTube link? Your video is embedded in your posting. I’m sure there’s a way to “capture” the link; I’m not tech-savvy enough to figure out how to do it. 🤔

  596. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    • I wish I knew how to cut and paste scenes together, like the way you were able to splice together Arya’s shipboard scenes from the S8e6 concluding montage in the last minute or so of your video. (Again, with no disrespect to Jon/Kit H or Sansa/Sophie T, I much preferred your uninterrupted presentation of Arya’s scenes to the episode’s quick jumps between the three characters.)

    • Based on your top notch editing, and the rousing “Ice Dance” by Danny Elfman performed by The Metropole Orkest, Nederlands Concertkoor, with Noortje Herlaar as the lead vocalist (linked by arianacandle in her 7/19/20, 4:05 pm comment above), I am tempted to postpone my planned Musical Interlude dedicated to Sandor Clegane, and instead go with an Arya Stark Musical Interlude instead.

    • That Arya Musical Interlude included a link to the S8e6 montage with time counter references to Arya’s shipboard scenes as she prepares to sail away on her direwolf ship. However, watching the unedited montage I linked is kind of distracting from the theme of the Arya Interlude – which includes a song reminiscent of the choral music in the concluding scene of S4e10 as Arya sails away to Braavos, as well as the “Ice Dance” linked by arianacandle.

    I hope you won’t mind if I link to your video instead. If so, do you have a YouTube link? Your video is embedded in your posting. I’m sure there’s a way to “capture” the link; I’m not tech-savvy enough to figure out how to do it. 🤔

    I’ll cheat and leave a space before the DOT COM.
    so make sure you get rid of the space!! and then it will work.

    https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=nZOXGce37HE&t=140s

  597. Ten Bears: Based on your top notch editing, and the rousing “Ice Dance” by Danny Elfman performed by The Metropole Orkest, Nederlands Concertkoor, with Noortje Herlaar as the lead vocalist (linked by arianacandle in her 7/19/20, 4:05 pm comment above), I am tempted to postpone my planned Musical Interlude dedicated to Sandor Clegane, and instead go with an Arya Stark Musical Interlude instead.

    I was hoping you’d like ‘Ice Dance’! It’s my all-time favourite Danny Elfman composition 🙂

    Anyway, I’m looking forward to your next musical interlude, whether it be for Sandor or Arya! 🙂

    Tron79,

    Oh, that space in between the period and the ‘com’ is a creative work-around to reveal the text link (rather than the video itself being straight up included).

  598. Adrianacandle: I was hoping you’d like ‘Ice Dance’! It’s my all-time favourite Danny Elfman composition 🙂

    Anyway, I’m looking forward to your next musical interlude, whether it be for Sandor or Arya! 🙂

    Tron79,

    Oh, that space in between the period and the ‘com’ is a creative work-around to reveal the text link (rather than the video itself being straight up included).

    I’m looking forward to ten bears interlude too.

    Regarding the space method, I’m sure there is a better way using something fancier but I hate WordPress so I don’t know a lot of the tricks in making WordPress comments do what you want without googling a lot. (WordPress is the platform WotW uses). I despise it just about as much as I despise Microsoft programs and the way Microsoft tries to force you into setting up a Microsoft account just to install windows. There is an easy way around that too. Just disconnect your wifii or network cable before installing windows and Microsoft has to let you continue without a Microsoft account!! So I opted for something simple instead to fool WordPress wiry the link. Someone here probably knows the WordPress way. I just refused to research it. WordPress creates the worst code I’ve ever seen and it’s very slow. But it made a hit with the market. I will say I’m thankful WotW found something they could use but I still can’t stand the platform.

  599. Tron79: Regarding the space method, I’m sure there is a better way using something fancier but I hate WordPress so I don’t know a lot of the tricks in making WordPress comments do what you want without googling a lot. (WordPress is the platform WotW uses). I despise it just about as much as I despise Microsoft programs and the way Microsoft tries to force you into setting up a Microsoft account just to install windows. There is an easy way around that too. Just disconnect your wifii or network cable before installing windows and Microsoft has to let you continue without a Microsoft account!! So I opted for something simple instead to fool WordPress wiry the link. Someone here probably knows the WordPress way. I just refused to research it. WordPress creates the worst code I’ve ever seen and it’s very slow. But it made a hit with the market. I will say I’m thankful WotW found something they could use but I still can’t stand the platform.

    I had a boyfriend who felt the exact same way 🙂 And I agree with a lot of it.

    I think WordPress does have its uses and its functions (enabling people unfamiliar with coding to manage their own sites with a GUI) but sometimes, it can be very hard to get it to do what you want it to do since so many processes are automated (like converting YouTube videos into embedded videos). And when you want to change something simple or achieve something simple (which would be simple in another environment), WordPress can require some really complex word-around to achieve this very simple something. And it’s maddening.

  600. Adrianacandle: I had a boyfriend who felt the exact same way 🙂

    I think WordPress does have its uses and its functions but sometimes, it can be very hard to get it to do what you want it to do since so many processes are automated (like converting YouTube videos into embedded videos). And when you want to change something simple, or achieve something simple (which would be simple in another environment). WordPress can require some really complex word-around to achieve this very simple something. And it’s maddening.

    WordPress was marketed as something easy. But in fact, it’s not really that easy unless you just stick with the template and just want to do some simple editing… Also, so many sites began looking the same. That was aggravating to me. Well, I think websites will be a relic in a few years anyway. People will stop using websites the way we do today. I’m not sure if it will be 5 or 10 years, but the days of entering something.com will be history. I do think websites have a place. This fan site is one of those excellent uses for a website. But it could be replaced with a phone app or some other medium that allows you to immerse yourself even deeper. I have been using my desktop computer about 10 times as much since the stay at home. Before COVID, I maybe sat at my desktop for an hour total a week. I would use my phone for everything so I didn’t have to go back over to the computer, including WotW. Long comments are still more challenging on a phone, but that does keep the comment length down which isn’t all bad for others who have to read my rant… I’m at a desktop computer now, so I can rattle off another 100 words very quickly… Websites have changed to focus on mobile platforms, but many websites are still designed thinking people are sitting at their desktop computers, which just isn’t the case as much (unless everyone has to continue staying at home!) It will be very interesting to watch what happens over the next few years. My Alexa is getting better. She’s especially good at cooking advice and sports. She’s not so good at general google searches. I don’t particularly like saying everything I want out loud, so there still will be a place to quietly ask for what you want, but I can’t imagine how far AI will have improved in 10 years. I’m trying to think of a GOT tie in, and I can’t… so I guess I’ll stop here…

  601. Tron79,

    She’s not thinking about Gendry at all at this point. Her time with Gendry has ended.

    Her subsequent post-victory interaction with him confirms your point; she made it very clear she was indeed “one & done” with him. To me, her refusing his offer was another inversion of the usual sexist behavior on Westeros: this time, it’s the woman who takes what she wants, and then coolly departs.

    Social class counts for even more than gender on Westeros, an attribute Cersei found useful when taking the Iron Throne.

  602. Tron79,

    I guess I should have kept at it when learning Objective C…

    Although I use my phone for about half my uses, I still find myself sticking to desktop for other uses — not only for when I have to write stuff since a full-sized screen helps me edit and navigate more easily, I’m a heavy Illustrator and Photoshop user. For those applications, I often require a graphics tablet and a crisp clear screen, bigger than my current 13″ laptop screen.

    But I can see people migrating to their phones for more day-to-day uses. Although, with the idea of retiring websites in favour of apps, I find there may be a downside to that.

    For example, small businesses. If they required a customer to download an app rather than going to a website to find out more information/browse products, I’m not sure that customer would. I don’t think I would. An app takes up screen space and requires action on the user’s part to actively download it (rather than visiting a website just to check out that company’s products). A website would be easier in this case.

    But things may change in the future. Perhaps somebody will develop one app a small business could use and that small business can develop a “child-app” as part of that one umbrella app. Maybe this would require only a one-time download for users (rather than that user having to download one app per company they want to look at) which would include that small business’s “child app”. All a user would have to do is search for it to view that company’s products.

    Or I don’t know… 🙂 This sort of sounds like just looking up a company’s website in IOS Safari or something and viewing the mobile version of that website.

  603. Adrianacandle:
    Tron79,

    I guess I should have kept at it when learning Objective C…

    Although I use my phone for about half my uses, I still find myself sticking to desktop for other uses — not only for when I have to write stuff since a full-sized screen helps me edit and navigate more easily, I’m a heavy Illustrator and Photoshop user. For those applications, I often require a graphics tablet and a crisp clear screen, bigger than my current 13″ laptop screen.

    But I can see people migrating to their phones for more day-to-day uses. Although, with the idea of retiring websites in favour of apps, I find there may be a downside to that.

    For example, small businesses. If they required a customer to download an app rather than going to a website to find out more information/browse products, I’m not sure that customer would. I don’t think I would. An app takes up screen space and requires action on the user’s part to actively download it (rather than visiting a website just to check out that company’s products). A website would be easier in this case.

    But things may change in the future. Perhaps somebody will develop one app a small business could use and that small business can develop a “child-app” as part of that one umbrella app. Maybe this would require only a one-time download for users (rather than that user having to download one app per company they want to look at) which would include that small business’s “child app”. All a user would have to do is search for it to view that company’s products.

    Or I don’t know… 🙂 This sort of sounds like just looking up a company’s website in IOS Safari or something and viewing the mobile version of that website.

    You made me think for two terms “content creator” and “content consumer”. Before the stay at home I wasn’t doing much content creating so I didn’t need to use my desktop. I was a content consumer mainly and I could use a tablet or phone. I can type comments for sites like this but I wasn’t creating a site like this, if you see what I mean. With the stay at home I’ve become much more of a content creator again like you. I just have more time at home and had to do my work stuff here. So I do think for content creators there is still a big market for desktop computers. I would say the majority of users are now content consumers and they can use lots of other platforms instead of a desktop computer. I’m back on my phone btw. But for most of the day I was working on creating music and video content on my desktop. You are right about apps. I don’t think phone apps are the future either.

  604. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending:
    Tron79,

    She’s not thinking about Gendry at all at this point. Her time with Gendry has ended.

    Her subsequent post-victory interaction with him confirms your point; she made it very clear she was indeed “one & done” with him. To me, her refusing his offer was another inversion of the usual sexist behavior on Westeros: this time, it’s the woman who takes what she wants, and then coolly departs.

    Social class counts for even more than gender on Westeros, an attribute Cersei found useful when taking the Iron Throne.

    I agree. Arya’s character did turn roles upside down and she defiantly doesn’t see herself as a lady. However in the early seasons she wanted Gendry to be part of her family. Arya suffered the trauma of losing her family and she did want Gendry to stay with her early on. I don’t think she was thinking romantically back then. It was more that she is used to living in a wolf pack with a family and she was hoping Gendry wouldn’t just leave her. I really felt for Arya when Gendry turned her down and decided to stay with brotherhood. Later on Arya stood up for Gendry and was pissed at the brotherhood for selling Gendry. She felt for Gendry because she could empathize with him. Gendry thought he finally found a family for himself and then they sold him to the Red Lady.

  605. Tron79: You made me think for two terms “content creator” and “content consumer”. Before the stay at home I wasn’t doing much content creating so I didn’t need to use my desktop. I was a content consumer mainly and I could use a tablet or phone. I can type comments for sites like this but I wasn’t creating a site like this, if you see what I mean. With the stay at home I’ve become much more of a content creator again like you. I just have more time at home and had to do my work stuff here. So I do think for content creators there is still a big market for desktop computers. I would say the majority of users are now content consumers and they can use lots of other platforms instead of a desktop computer. I’m back on my phone btw. But for most of the day I was working on creating music and video content on my desktop. You are right about apps. I don’t think phone apps are the future either.

    Right, and I think these are things (technology becoming increasingly mobile to one’s person) that have been explored for some time now — perhaps since the 70s when the first cell phone was developed? (And I think this was a precursor to car phones, which I remember my Nana using throughout the 90s while I think my dad got his first cell phone in the early 90s — and he’s kept the same mobile number since!)

    I remember doing some research into this area around 2010 for school (since I was studying digital media) and I took out this book (Mobile Communications: Re-negotiation of the Social Sphere, circa 2005), which explored some of the ideas you’re bringing up now.

    People tend to keep their phones with them when they’re on the go — but they can’t take desktop computers with them. Even laptops, though designed to be portable, aren’t nearly as convenient for mobility like a phone is. You can’t whip out your laptop while standing in line, it’s awkward to use on a bus, and even though my laptop only weighs 3.5lbs, it’s 3.5lbs I’d rather be without in my backpack. But a phone can fit into a pocket or a purse, making phones more convenient to connect with and engage in content since most people don’t work from home and have to leave the house (barring quarantine times).

  606. Adrianacandle,

    So my new desktop computer fits in a backpack.
    It’s an Intel NUC that was designed for gamers to take it with them to a gamer party so they had all their gear. You have to plug it into a big monitor where you go to your party. Now I’m not a gamer. I just liked what was in that little box!!! So it’s not a laptop and it’s not a desktop and I’m probably boring everyone sorry. . To be serious I don’t know what’s next. But I can say it won’t be websites

  607. Tron79: So my new desktop computer fits in a backpack.
    It’s an Intel NUC that was designed for gamers to take it with them to a gamer party so they had all their gear. You have to plug it into a big monitor where you go to your party. Now I’m not a gamer. I just liked what was in that little box!!! So it’s not a laptop and it’s not a desktop and I’m probably boring everyone sorry. . To be serious I don’t know what’s next. But I can say it won’t be websites

    Oooh, I’d be interested in that! My poor Mac struggles with games — I can barely play Witcher 2 on it (it plays better on a Surface Pro, which I inherited from my best friend, who also played games on it).

    (You’re not boring me! I love this stuff!! :D)

  608. Tron79,

    You wrote:
    “l’ll cheat and leave a space before the DOT COM.
    so make sure you get rid of the space!! and then it will work.”

    https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=nZOXGce37HE&t=140s

    ————
    Damn it. I can’t get it to work. I get an error message that “Safari can’t connect to the server.”

    Maybe my modem or WiFi are f*cked up. Let me try some other YouTube links….

  609. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    You wrote:
    “l’ll cheat and leave a space before the DOT COM.
    so make sure you get rid of the space!! and then it will work.”

    https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=nZOXGce37HE&t=140s

    ————
    Damn it. I can’t get it to work. I get an error message that “Safari can’t connect to the server.”

    Maybe my modem or WiFi are f*cked up. Let me try some other YouTube links….

    Humm. It sounds like you still might have the space in there. Stay tuned. I’ll send it a different way later tonight.

  610. Tron79: I agree. Arya’s character did turn roles upside down and she defiantly doesn’t see herself as a lady. However in the early seasons she wanted Gendry to be part of her family. Arya suffered the trauma of losing her family and she did want Gendry to stay with her early on. I don’t think she was thinking romantically back then. It was more that she is used to living in a wolf pack with a family and she was hoping Gendry wouldn’t just leave her. I really felt for Arya when Gendry turned her down and decided to stay with brotherhood.Later on Arya stood up for Gendry and was pissed at the brotherhood for selling Gendry. She felt for Gendry because she could empathize with him. Gendry thought he finally found a family for himself and then they sold him to the Red Lady.

    Gendry f*cked up big time.

    • He should’ve listened to Arya when she warned him about the Brotherhood. He should’ve stuck with his loyal friend.

    • She saved his life – twice. That ought to have counted for something.

    • But proposing to her and asking her to be the Lady of Storm’s End was the biggest boneheaded move of all. How many times did she tell him “I’m not a lady,” “don’t call me ‘My Lady’,” and “I don’t want to be a lady”?

    • When he got down on one knee I wanted to reach into my TV screen, slap him across the face, and tell him to back off and play it cool.

    • Arya must’ve been a real savant in the sheets to make Gendry’s head turn to jello after one session. Well, Jaqen 2.0 did say “A girl has many gifts.”

    • While I know this was an inexplicable writers’ decision, I still found it odd that Gendry did not ask about Arya even once: when being introduced to Jon in S7e5; when bitching at Thoros and Beric in the Eastwatch cells; or when ambling out beyond the wall in S7e6 with Jon, Thoros and Beric.

    Really? No curiosity what became of his little friend? Not a single question asked of the last people he saw her with, or her own brother?

    All Gendry seemed concerned about was whinging about being sold to a witch who turned him into a newt years earlier. (He got better.) Or telling Jon he’d seen his dad once for five minutes – yet nothing about Jon’s little sister with whom he’d spent 2+ years. 😡

    At least Hot Pie expressed concern for Arya and stuck out his neck to try to help her out. And told her she was pretty. 🥰

  611. Ten Bears,

    Cool…but I added the link to my 73chickens.com page…so you can find it here too
    http://www.73chickens.com

    I may have to get back to programming the 73chickens site, but I have lots of distractions this summer and even an acid lake isn’t helping…

  612. Adrianacandle: Oooh, I’d be interested in that! My poor Mac struggles with games — I can barely play Witcher 2 on it (it plays better on a Surface Pro, which I inherited from my best friend, who also played games on it).

    (You’re not boring me! I love this stuff!! :D)

    Here’s a picture of what it looks like from another website… I could have lived without the lightup skull, but there is cool software you can download to change the colors!!!
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQTCb52ygZPkKdHyYhxRJmAdr8LhB4FBk9TIQ&usqp=CAU

    It can be pricey, but I got it used on Amazon for 40% off and I took a chance on it. It has a decent i7 chip but 8th generation, so there are better ones out there.. But I think it really flies… There are no moving parts other than the fan… It has a 1TB SSD drive and 16GB RAM, and it has two display ports plus two thunderbolt ports plus two HDMI ports…plus various USB ports and camera card ports, etc… all packed in this pretty small box you can put in a backpack…The graphics is OK for gaming with a Radeon™ RX Vega M GH. It’s not as good as a fully equipped gaming desktop, but it’s not bad either. It’s supposed to have some virtual reality thing enabled. I’m sure it will work great with Witcher…. It does work great with Adobe Premiere and just about anything else I’ve thrown at it so far… There is a newer model of this one, but I don’t think it came with the same graphics card built in, so I didn’t consider it… Being an old school tech guy, I take more chances with this kind of stuff… and it fit my own needs really well…..

    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/boards-kits/nuc/mini-pcs/nuc8i7hvkva-brief.html

  613. Ten Bears: Gendry f*cked up big time.

    • He should’ve listened to Arya when she warned him about the Brotherhood. He should’ve stuck with his loyal friend.

    • She saved his life – twice. That ought to have counted for something.

    • But proposing to her and asking her to be the Lady of Storm’s End was the biggest boneheaded move of all. How many times did she tell him “I’m not a lady,” “don’t call me ‘My Lady’,” and “I don’t want to be a lady”?

    • When he got down on one knee I wanted to reach into my TV screen, slap him across the face, and tell him to back off and play it cool.

    • Arya must’ve been a real savant in the sheets to make Gendry’s head turn to jello after one session. Well, Jaqen 2.0 did say “A girl has many gifts.”

    • While I know this was an inexplicable writers’ decision, I still found it odd that Gendry did not ask about Arya even once: when being introduced to Jon in S7e5; when bitching at Thoros and Beric in the Eastwatch cells; or when ambling out beyond the wall in S7e6 with Jon, Thoros and Beric.

    Really? No curiosity what became of his little friend? Not a single question asked of the last people he saw her with, or her own brother?

    All Gendry seemed concerned about was whinging about being sold to a witch who turned him into a newt years earlier. (He got better.) Or telling Jon he’d seen his dad once for five minutes – yet nothing about Jon’s little sister with whom he’d spent 2+ years. 😡

    At least Hot Pie expressed concern for Arya and stuck out his neck to try to help her out. And told her she was pretty. 🥰

    Yeah, Hot Pie actually really cared!!

    Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending referred to
    “inversion of the usual sexist behavior on Westeros”

    In that same line, I see Gendry taking on the sexist role but reversed of “All looks and no brains”. He really has no clue most of the time and can barely put a full sentence together. I’m thinking of Arya’s line.. “Really bad? Even a smiths apprentice can do better than really bad…”

    I could see that Gendry thought he found a place for himself with the Brotherhood. Hot Pie also found a safe place for himself baking those wolf bread things. Neither one of them were going to be like Arya and stay on the road. They both wanted to settle down. Again, that’s an interesting reversal in the usual stereotypical roles of men and women. Men are often seen as the wanderers.

  614. Tron79: It can be pricey, but I got it used on Amazon for 40% off and I took a chance on it. It has a decent i7 chip but 8th generation, so there are better ones out there.. But I think it really flies… There are no moving parts other than the fan… It has a 1TB SSD drive and 16GB RAM, and it has two display ports plus two thunderbolt ports plus two HDMI ports…plus various USB ports and camera card ports, etc… all packed in this pretty small box you can put in a backpack…The graphics is OK for gaming with a Radeon™ RX Vega M GH. It’s not as good as a fully equipped gaming desktop, but it’s not bad either. It’s supposed to have some virtual reality thing enabled. I’m sure it will work great with Witcher…. It does work great with Adobe Premiere and just about anything else I’ve thrown at it so far… There is a newer model of this one, but I don’t think it came with the same graphics card built in, so I didn’t consider it… Being an old school tech guy, I take more chances with this kind of stuff… and it fit my own needs really well…..

    Oh, this sounds 10000000% better than what I have for gaming (although the Surface has been really good to me. My Mac? Nope — but I’ve hardly been good to it either 😉 ) and now I have something else to ache for…. this…. (and a wrap-around desk that encompasses 3/4 walls + unlimited shelving… and a rose gold 2020 MacBook Pro with the latest specs and a Dyson supersonic hair dryer and a wholly renovated bathroom and a washer/dryer hook-up for newly purchased apartment and my own laser cutting machine and a trip to Europe and…).

  615. Ten Bears,

    Also, I was just thinking that I wonder if men even proposed in Westeros. As far as I know, all of the weddings are setup by those in power. King Robert setups a marriage between Sansa and Joffrey to join their houses. Jaime promises Bronn a bigger castle and a better wife. I don’t think Bronn is the one doing the actual proposing. Dany gave Gendry a castle as a political move, and she should have probably given him a wife as well, but certainly Arya wouldn’t have obeyed. That could have been risky to disobey the Queen, and it could have been an interesting twist. She could have followed her mentor and said, “F*k the Queen”. Were there ever any other proposals in Westeros? I have a feeling marriages didn’t really work that way in that world… They were all arranged one way or another by someone in power. This was probably something that D&D dreamed up, but it may not have really made sense in the rules of the world where they lived.

  616. Adrianacandle: Oh, this sounds 10000000% better than what I have for gaming (although the Surface has been really good to me. My Mac? Nope — but I’ve hardly been good to it either 😉 ) and now I have something else to ache for…. this…. (and a wrap-around desk that encompasses 3/4 walls + unlimited shelving… and a rose gold 2020 MacBook Pro with the latest specs and a Dyson supersonic hair dryer and a wholly renovated bathroom and a washer/dryer hook-up for newly purchased apartment and my own laser cutting machine and a trip to Europe and…).

    Nice list!! I was seriously considering a Mac, but they were so fricken expensive to get what I wanted!! I do plan on retiring one day and setting up my home music composer system. I have some of this at synagogue already, but it’s pretty old. But it’s a mighty hefty price tag for everything I want, but someday I may invest in it when I hang things up in the world of the working… But hard to hang things up when you need to build a fortune to buy your Mac Pro’s!! (and various music keyboards, etc, etc…)

  617. Adrianacandle,

    what do you think about the “proposal” issue I brought up in my last post. Do people really propose in Westeros? And Arya was also promised to the Frey’s but they had a pie problem didn’t they. I know in the books Arya is also promised. I suppose Gendry is a Lord after Dany un-bastardizes him, but the getting down on one knee seemed out of place for Westeros imho.

  618. Tron79: what do you think about the “proposal” issue I brought up in my last post. Do people really propose in Westeros? And Arya was also promised to the Frey’s but they had a pie problem didn’t they. I know in the books Arya is also promised. I suppose Gendry is a Lord after Dany un-bastardizes him, but the getting down on one knee seemed out of place for Westeros imho.

    Yes, Arya was promised (to Elmar Frey, I think) but that betrothal was cancelled when Robb married Jeyne Westerling. I think this passage is kind of funny because Arya (posing as a serving girl, unaware Elmar was her betrothed) and Elmar (unaware that this “serving girl” is actually his betrothed) are talking about how the betrothal was called off:

    Arya went, but not to her bed. When she stepped out into the darkness of the yard, the guard on the door nodded at her and said, “Storm coming. Smell the air?” The wind was gusting, flames swirling off the torches mounted atop the walls beside the rows of heads. On her way to the godswood, she passed the Wailing Tower where once she had lived in fear of Weese. The Freys had taken it for their own since Harrenhal’s fall. She could hear angry voices coming from a window, many men talking and arguing all at once. Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

    “What’s wrong?” Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

    “My princess,” he sobbed. “We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else, or be a septon.”

    A stupid princess, she thought, that’s nothing to cry over. “My brothers might be dead,” she confided.

    Elmar gave her a scornful look. “No one cares about a serving girl’s brothers.”
    It was hard not to hit him when he said that. “I hope your princess dies,” she said, and ran off before he could grab her.

    And that princess is unknowingly herself XD

    I don’t recall people proposing in Westeros but yes, it seems the primary purposes were arranging marriages for power or to join resources. Although, I think there were elopements against their family’s wishes. Don’t think that’s quite the same as a proposal though.

    With Dany, I imagine she’d know enough about Arya from Jon (given that Dany knows all about Sansa and what she went through, how Jon didn’t want to be king, etc. and this is information that she likely got from Jon) to know that she’d have a problem on her hands if she tried to have Arya marry Gendry. I think — if she wanted to tie Houses Stark and Baratheon together — she’d try with Sansa instead. However, I don’t know what benefit that would provide Dany with or why Dany would want a House Stark/House Baratheon union. I think it would benefit Dany to marry Gendry to somebody she knows is loyal to her to ensure House Baratheon’s loyalty further — Dany knows Sansa doesn’t like her and at best, Arya would be an unknown to her while Gendry is also unknown to her. If Dany were to give Gendry a wife, I’d imagine it be from somebody whose loyalty she was certain of to help better ensure Gendry’s to her.

  619. Tron79: Nice list!! I was seriously considering a Mac, but they were so fricken expensive to get what I wanted!! I do plan on retiring one day and setting up my home music composer system. I have some of this at synagogue already, but it’s pretty old. But it’s a mighty hefty price tag for everything I want, but someday I may invest in it when I hang things up in the world of the working… But hard to hang things up when you need to build a fortune to buy your Mac Pro’s!! (and various music keyboards, etc, etc…)

    They really, really are expensive — kind of outrageously so 🙁

    Have you looked into refurbished macs? You can usually get one for a few hundred dollars off 🙂

    And music equipment is really expensive too! And equipment eventually wears out so you find yourself having to replace everything eventually… and it is so so expensive, with Apple not helping at all.

  620. Tron79: what do you think about the “proposal” issue I brought up in my last post. Do people really propose in Westeros?

    Thinking about this further — it could be a proposal in the forms of offers and suggestions for a match but maybe not much between two people for purely personal reasons.

  621. Adrianacandle: Thinking about this further —it could be a proposal in the forms of offers and suggestions for a match but maybe not much between two people for purely personal reasons.

    Only 4 more comments to 700!

    I can think of Robb marrying for love (or lust). He was King but I think he would have asked her. He didn’t just order her to marry him. But that wedding was probably the worst mistake of Westeros. As King Robert admitted a king can’t just do what he likes. There are consequences. Robb should have honored his promise. Following his feelings had huge consequences for his family and the world! I guess the message is arranged marriages are preferred to following your heart. With arranged marriages you could keep the peace by joining rival houses (for example). Love comes later (maybe). The commitment was more important than emotional love.

  622. Tron79: I can think of Robb marrying for love (or lust). He was King but I think he would have asked her. He didn’t just order her to marry him. But that wedding was probably the worst mistake of Westeros. As King Robert admitted a king can’t just do what he likes. There are consequences. Robb should have honored his promise. Following his feelings had huge consequences for his family and the world! I guess the message is arranged marriages are preferred to following your heart. With arranged marriages you could keep the peace by joining rival houses (for example). Love comes later (maybe). The commitment was more important than emotional love.

    I think so, yeah. Probably because marriage (especially between nobles) was done for different purposes then and had different consequences when a betrothal was broken as it wasn’t just those two individuals marrying, it was those two houses.

    In the books, I think it was more a matter of honour why Robb married Jeyne rather than love. I think Robb was starting to fall for Jeyne but it was to protect her honour that he married her since he had slept with her and before that, she had been a virgin.

    “I took her castle and she took my heart,” Robb smiled. “The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of… of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she… she comforted me, Mother.”

    Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. “And you wed her the next day.”

    He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do. She’s gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife.”

    “Perhaps. That will not appease Lord Frey.”

    “I know,” her son said, stricken. “I’ve made a botch of everything but the battles, haven’t I? I thought the battles would be the hard part, but… if I had listened to you and kept Theon as my hostage, I’d still rule the north, and Bran and Rickon would be alive and safe in Winterfell.”

    But even here, yes, doing right by Jeyne on a personal level ended up not being the right thing for everyone else (and it didn’t turn out awesome for himself and Jeyne either). Like you said, marrying Jeyne (and in the show, Talisa) had huge consequences for himself, Jeyne (and Talisa), his family, the North, and impacted the realm.

    Only 3 until 700 now! 🙂

  623. Adrianacandle: I think so, yeah. Probably because marriage (especially between nobles) was done for different purposes then and had different consequences when a betrothal was broken as it wasn’t just those two individuals marrying, it was those two houses.

    In the books, I think it was more a matter of honour why Robb married Jeyne rather than love. I think Robb was starting to fall for Jeyne but it was to protect her honour thathe married her since he had slept with her and before that, she had been a virgin.

    But even here, yes, doing right by Jeyne on a personal level ended up not being the right thing for everyone else (and it didn’t turn out awesome for himself and Jeyne either). Like you said, marrying Jeyne (and in the show, Talisa) had huge consequences for himself, Jeyne (and Talisa), his family, the North, and impacted the realm.

    Only 3 until 700 now! 🙂

    I’m setting this up for someone to be 700!!

    Yes you are right about the books. The show decided the an onscreen steamy romance was the way to go for viewers. The book went a totally different way but it still ends horribly.

  624. Tron79: Yes you are right about the books. The show decided the an onscreen steamy romance was the way to go for viewers. The book went a totally different way but it still ends horribly.

    Yeah. In the books, Robb still loved Jeyne but that wasn’t simply the reason as to why he married her. And Talisa was also a different character than Jeyne — Talisa was assertive, challenging, and a badass combat nurse who was not afraid to tell a king off while Jeyne was more mild and gentle (and definitely not a combat nurse). Jeyne wasn’t anything very unusual when it came to highborn girls, not so much like Talisa was. Jeyne was pretty but not devastatingly beautiful (as Jaime notes) and her character wasn’t unusual.

    (Oh! This is 700! I miscounted!)

  625. Adrianacandle: Yeah. In the books, Robb still loved Jeyne but that wasn’t simply the reason as to why he married her. And Talisa was also a different character than Jeyne — Talisa was assertive, challenging, and a badass combat nurse who was not afraid to tell a king off while Jeyne was more mild and gentle (and definitely not a combat nurse). Jeyne wasn’t anything very unusual when it came to highborn girls, not so much like Talisa was. Jeyne was pretty but not devastatingly beautiful (as Jaime notes) and her character wasn’t unusual.

    (Oh! This is 700! I miscounted!)

    Congratulations on 700 Adrianacandle.

  626. Tron79: Congratulations on 700 Adrianacandle.

    Thanks! Although, you did set it up for me since you were #699 🙂

    And as of today, this thread has been going for nearly a month (June 23)!

  627. Adrianacandle: Thanks! Although, you did set it up for me since you were #699 🙂

    And as of today, this thread has been going for nearly a month (June 23)!

    I’ll take the assist. I love seeing others shine.

  628. Tron79,

    My quick two cents about “proposals”:

    • Yeah, you make a good point that Gendry’s marriage proposal (getting down on one knee and asking Arya to be his wife) was kind of an anachronism. I don’t believe that modern-day real world custom was ever part of the GoT universe – and I presume there’s nothing like it in the books either.

    • As you and arianacandle observed, arranged marriages were the general rule, especially among highborn families. Marriages were arranged by fathers to forge alliances and advance their families’ stature. Daughters were expected to honor and obey their fathers’ marriage contracts. On the show, Tywin erupted at stubborn Cersei when she tried to resist being “sold off like a broodmare” a second time. Tyrion didn’t put up a fight when Tywin ordered him to marry Sansa to solidify control of the North. Robert married Cersei because it was supposed to be a politically advantageous union. He was in love with a dead girl, never loved Cersei, and (in my view) was a major cause of her “hatefulness.”

    • The only instances I recall (on the show) when lovebirds disavowed marriage pacts to follow their own hearts did not work out well. At all:

    – Headstrong Lyanna Stark blew off her manwhore fiancé Robert, and ran off with her lovestruck silver-haired dreamboat. Their honeymoon didn’t last long. Their family members killed each other, the realm devolved into civil war, and the two lovers didn’t last very long before they died too. So that was a clusterf*ck.

    – Robb agreed to a marriage pact with a cranky old man in order to cross his bridge. Robb followed his heart too, and reneged on his promise in order to marry the hot field nurse who liked to loll around in her birthday suit. The cranky old man did not react very well to the insult.

    • Questions/comments:

    – (1) Was Gendry even within his rights to propose marriage to Arya aka Lady Stark? Wouldn’t such an engagement first have to be sanctioned by the head of Arya’s family (Jon, presumably)? And I thought it was established that a highborn girl couldn’t just get engaged to a any guy she fancied: in that oppressive, patriarchal society, her value to her family was as an incubator of future lords and princes.

    Did the newbie Lord of Storm’s End not know any better? Or was he too far gone in his post-coital rapture to think straight?

    (2) Life lesson courtesy of Gendry: When a great girl comes into your life and tells you “I can be your family” (and says it like “I love you” – see stage direction), the only correct response is: “I would love that.” You may not get another chance.
    [Seriously though: What guy in his right mind would want to hang out with a band of vigilante outlaws instead of ASNAWP?]

    (3) I suppose Gendry replied, “You wouldn’t be my family; you’d be My Lady,” because as a class conscious bastard boy from Flea Bottom, he felt inferior to her? Still, that should not have stopped him from staying with her, watching over her, and if necessary, fighting for her. [See Clegane, Sandor.]

    (4) Back to the topic at hand: Ned told Arya [paraphrasing], “You will marry a high lord, and your sons will be knights and lords and princes,” and she replied “No. That’s not me.”
    Was he just humoring her, or did he really accept that she wasn’t going to be a dutiful daughter/marriage material?

  629. Ten Bears,

    (1) Was Gendry even within his rights to propose marriage to Arya aka Lady Stark? Wouldn’t such an engagement first have to be sanctioned by the head of Arya’s family (Jon, presumably)? And I thought it was established that a highborn girl couldn’t just get engaged to a any guy she fancied: in that oppressive, patriarchal society, her value to her family was as an incubator of future lords and princes.

    Yeah, I don’t think it could be a decision just between Gendry and Arya, they’d have to seek approval from their families or Gendry would have to arrange it with them. However, at this point, I don’t see that anyone would want to force Arya into this (I don’t imagine Gendry would either). There wasn’t a great need or urgency for a Stark/Baratheon union.

    (3) I suppose Gendry replied, “You wouldn’t be my family; you’d be My Lady,” because as a class conscious bastard boy from Flea Bottom, he felt inferior to her? Still, that should not have stopped him from staying with her, watching over her, and if necessary, fighting for her. [See Clegane, Sandor.]

    I think it was more than Gendry feeling inferior to Arya (which I think you’re correct that he did), I think it was that Gendry wanted a place in the world where things were a bit different rather than serving just another lord again and he thought he could get that with the Brotherhood:

    Arya: What are you doing?

    Gendry: Just mending Lord Beric’s armor.

    Arya: Why?

    Gendry: I’m going to stay on and smith for the Brotherhood.

    Arya: Have you lost your mind? When the Lannisters find this place, you think they’ll spare the smiths? They’ll cave your head in with your own helmet.

    Gendry: The Lannisters wanted to kill me long before I joined the Brotherhood.

    Arya: You don’t have to do this.

    Gendry: I want to. They need good men.

    Arya: Robb needs good men, too. We’re leaving tomorrow. And then you…

    Gendry: What? Serve him? I’ve served men my entire life. I served Master Mott at King’s Landing and he sold me to the Watch. I served Lord Tywin at Harrenhal, wondering every day if I’d get tortured or killed. I’m done serving.

    Arya: You just said you were serving Lord Beric.

    Gendry: He may be their leader, but they chose him. These men are brothers. They’re a family. I’ve never had a family.

    Arya: I can be your family.

    Gendry: You wouldn’t be my family. You’d be ‘m’lady.’

    ___

    (4) Back to the topic at hand: Ned told Arya [paraphrasing], “You will marry a high lord, and your sons will be knights and lords and princes,” and she replied “No. That’s not me.”
    Was he just humoring her, or did he really accept that she wasn’t going to be a dutiful daughter/marriage material?

    I think it really illustrated to Ned that he was going to have a big problem with any future betrothals. I don’t know what he would have done, especially after Lyanna.

    As part of the Frey-Stark deal (river crossing, Frey men joining Robb’s army), Catelyn agreed to Frey’s terms, including Arya’s betrothal to Elmar Frey. Robb knew Arya would hate that but Catelyn takes this opportunity to tell him he, too, will be marrying a Frey daughter — which Robb doesn’t much like himself.

    However, I think Catelyn knows this will pose problems with Arya as she reflects that Arya has always been “harder to tame”.

  630. Adrianacandle,

    ”As part of the Frey-Stark deal (river crossing, Frey men joining Robb’s army), Catelyn agreed to Frey’s terms, including Arya’s betrothal to Elmar Frey. Robb knew Arya would hate that but Catelyn takes this opportunity to tell him he, too, will be marrying a Frey daughter — which Robb doesn’t much like himself.”

    I had hoped the show would do something with the Arya-Elmar Frey betrothal aspect of the bridge crossing deal.

    For example:

    • At the tail end of the S7e1 cold open Arbor Gold wine tasting party, when Arya walks off after her parting words to Walder’s stunned child-wife (“If people ask you what happened here, tell them the North remembers; tell them winter came for House Frey”), show Arya stepping over Elmar Frey in his death throes, then turning back to him and snarking: “Needless to say, the engagement’s off.”

    I understand that in the books, incognito Arya was the “Princess” Elmar was playing with and didn’t realize it. I think on the show Catelyn may have referred to her with that title once or twice.

    Anyway, how does that work? Arya was a “princess” because she was King Robb’s sister, right? Isn’t she now a Princess twice over as the sister of Queen Sansa, and the sister of King Bran?

    👸🏻

  631. Adrianacandle,

    Gendry: What? Serve him? I’ve served men my entire life. I served Master Mott at King’s Landing and he sold me to the Watch. I served Lord Tywin at Harrenhal, wondering every day if I’d get tortured or killed. I’m done serving.

    Arya: You just said you were serving Lord Beric.

    Gendry: He may be their leader, but they chose him. These men are brothers. They’re a family. I’ve never had a family.

    Arya: I can be your family.

    Gendry: You wouldn’t be my family. You’d be ‘m’lady.

    F*ck off Gendry. Sold you to the Watch? You would’ve been gored with a lance by Gregor and his goons when they ambushed the Nights Watch caravan, looking were looking for a “bastard boy named Gendry” – were it not for Arya’s quick thinking dead.

    Wondering every day if you’d get tortured or killed at Harrenhal? Gee, who was it that freed you from that horror show?

    Sorry. No sympathy from me. Your wonderful new “family” sold you out. Shoulda listened to Arya. Wouldn’t have had to deal Mel’s twisted leeches on the d*ck song and dance either.

  632. Ten Bears,

    But proposing to her and asking her to be the Lady of Storm’s End was the biggest boneheaded move of all. How many times did she tell him “I’m not a lady,” “don’t call me ‘My Lady’,” and “I don’t want to be a lady”?

    In quick succession, he had just recently (1) made love with her, then (2) fought a battle for his very life (3) which he was losing (4) until she saved his ass so that (5) the hot new queen in town could give his bastard, workingman self a title and lands. Any guy with *that* run of luck would certainly try to push it, methinks. 🙂

  633. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    As long as we’re talking about free spirit Arya turning down an overeager Gendry [S8e4]….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X5UGMNnr7w

    … Here’s a musical dedication:

    🎵 ”Yes and I ain’t sayin’ you ain’t pretty
    All I’m saying is I’m not ready
    For any person, place or thing
    To try to pull the reins in on me.”
    🎶

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAMDz4DDKg

    Linda Ronstadt “Different Drum” (1967)

  634. Ten Bears,

    It’s less “free spirit,” and more she’d already made her decision to murder Cersei. I believe we can reasonably infer that Arya, growing up in Winterfell with The Honorable Ned Stark, would have learned that even the scion of the mighty House Lannister had been permanently despised as a “kingslayer.” Arya already wanted to see what was West of Westeros, and so didn’t care if she received Jaime Lannister’s punishment for regicide on Westeros; she had no intention of staying on land anyway.

    As a Mage, I absolutely loved her portions of the series-closing montage. Even by the dismal standards of a Dark Age setting, Westeros is a violent, ignorant backwater, utterly devoid of any intellectual or exploratory spirit. Watching her roll up those maps, hoist her telescope, and get sailing westwards made my heart sing.

    Going into the series finale, I had only dared to hope the ending would reference the end of Season Four, The Children. The final minutes of that episode are amazing: from the start of “The Reynes of Castamere” theme, as Tyrion ‘screws his courage to the sticking-place,’ and finally commits a long-awaited patricide, through to the end of the credits. I have played that sequence many times, even using it for background music to housework. It ends with Arya sailing for Braavos, and that stirring music of the children’s choir. I find hard to put into words how well the end of The Iron Throne complemented the end of The Children, right down to the music. Now the last moments of the series finale has supplanted the end of The Children as my all-time favorite scenes in the series. I really cannot imagine any better ending to the series.

  635. Ten Bears: F*ck off Gendry. Sold you to the Watch? You would’ve been gored with a lance by Gregor and his goons when they ambushed the Nights Watch caravan, looking were looking for a “bastard boy named Gendry” – were it not for Arya’s quick thinking dead.

    Wondering every day if you’d get tortured or killed at Harrenhal? Gee, who was it that freed you from that horror show?

    Sorry. No sympathy from me. Your wonderful new “family” sold you out. Shoulda listened to Arya. Wouldn’t have had to deal Mel’s twisted leeches on the d*ck song and dance either.

    If Gendry had known what would happen with the Brotherhood, I’m sure he’d have made a different choice 🙂 But I see why Gendry would want to avoid serving another lord as just another servant, desiring a situation that was a bit different.

  636. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

    ”It [S4e10] ends with Arya sailing for Braavos, and that stirring music of the children’s choir. I find hard to put into words how well the end of The Iron Throne complemented the end of The Children, right down to the music…”

    Ah, my dear Tensor! I feel the same way. You may enjoy my upcoming Musical Interlude featuring these two complementary scenes of Arya sailing away. ⛵️

  637. Ten Bears,

    …And on a semi-related note, how come some HBO merchandise licensee still hasn’t come out with a scale model of Arya’s direwolf ship???

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6_KBr8WkAEcGG5.jpg

    I’d pay good money for a model of the ship with the direwolf prow and direwolf sail to perch on my bookshelf. I’d pay even more for a radio-controlled, motorized version that could navigate lakes, canals and marinas.*

    *[Detachable Scorpions with non-lethal bolts to fire at manatee-mutilating Jet Skiers sold separately.] 🏹

  638. Tron79,

    To: Maisie Williams Fans

    “New Mutants” Panel
    Comic-Con@Home 7/23/20
    (29:40 long)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGcU0JKAL5U

    1:42 Writer/Director Josh Boone
    1:53 MAISIE!!!!! 👸🏻
    2:57 Blu Hunt
    12:15 – 13:55 Maisie asked to compare playing Rahne vs. playing Arya
    21:10 – 23:50 👩‍❤️‍👩The “Maisie & Blu relationship”
    Dani 💕 Wolfsbane
    24:11 – 26:40 Opening scene of the movie

  639. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    To: Maisie Williams Fans

    “New Mutants” Panel
    Comic-Con@Home 7/23/20
    (29:40 long)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGcU0JKAL5U

    1:42 Writer/Director Josh Boone
    1:53 MAISIE!!!!! 👸🏻
    2:57 Blu Hunt
    12:15 – 13:55 Maisie asked to compare playing Rahne vs. playing Arya
    21:10 – 23:50 👩‍❤️‍👩The “Maisie & Blu relationship”
    Dani 💕 Wolfsbane
    24:11 – 26:40 Opening scene of the movie

    Watching now!! #NewMutantsWolfsBane
    Wish it worked here!

  640. Tron79,

    Have you seen the recently released music video directed by Lena Headey and starring Maisie Williams? I think I posted this in another Comments section a couple of days ago. Since we’re in the midst of an extended ASNAWP drought, I thought I’d re-post it here.

    Though it’s a little dark (thanks Lena), it was still nice seeing The Many-Faced Goddess doing some wordless acting again.

    ——
    Madeon, “Miracle” music video
    directed by Lena Headey, starring Maisie Williams

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrob8fwgoeo

    …..

    https://static-billboard-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/static.billboard.com/files/2020/07/Madeon-Miracle-2020-billboard-1548-1596056731-768×433.jpg

  641. This is is a never ending story, remember when he was frantically trying to finish Winds prior to S6 airing? He met with HBO and his publishers several times then missed 3 deadlines before updating his not a blog that he had tried but wasn’t able to do it. Four years later and still not out.

    The show ended last year, I suspect we will get this book in the next year or two but I’d be amazed if we see the final book in print sadly.

  642. George R R Martin aka George Raymond Richard Martin born 1948 is truly a corpulent lazy sloth pig that wallows in wealth and degeneracy and sin. all his fans ever asked of him was to write as he has done – nothing more, nothing less – yet he chose to make stuffing is fat mouth and licking the various orifices of the pedowood elite and ‘arp’ like a fat seal for fish from the limousine leftists that seem to now run everything.

    ‘GRRM is more interested in the darker corners of the human soul’ – many disagree with that statement, because it appears that GRRM doesn’t believe we have souls. One of the presiding messages coming out of ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ is the discernible lack of hope.

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