George R.R. Martin addresses the Jaime & Cersei sept scene, in depth

George R.R. MartinGeorge R.R. Martin chatted with The Daily Beast recently, post-San Diego Comic Con, and the conversation centered on the controversial and much-analyzed sept scene from “Breaker of Chains.”

Since the episode aired in April, the scene between Jaime and Cersei in the sept had been often debated, with some calling it a complicated but ultimately consensual sex scene, and some viewing it as rape. The episode director Alex Graves, writers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, and the actors themselves have all weighed in on the subject, conveying their intentions for the scene. But the debates continue.

In speaking with The Daily Beast this week, Martin agrees the scene is “written somewhat different in the TV series than in the books” but having experience writing for television, he does understand the need to adapt, with the show being unable to go into Jaime’s internal monologue. He explains:

I can go inside the head and show exactly what he’s thinking and if you just look at the dialogue, if they’d included all that dialogue it would have been a considerably longer scene. Virtually any scene, there’s always economy. You know the scene would be five minutes long and we have to get another scene that’s one minute long or half a minute long. In that case, I do wish they’d included my dialogue from the books because I think that would have been seen in a different context.

Martin also acknowledges that by the show altering the timeline to have Jaime arriving in King’s Landing before Joffrey’s death, that it affected the overall depiction of the scene.

The only person she ever truly loved besides her children may be lost to her forever and suddenly there he is before her—but shockingly maimed and transformed. There is a mutual passion for each other. And it’s like if you get a cable that your husband has been killed in war, and then suddenly there he is—he’s not killed in war. That triggers something. When they changed the time frame, they changed the context of that scene.

For the full article and to read Martin’s thoughts on where he sees Cersei and Jaime’s relationship headed, visit The Daily Beast.

Sue the Fury says: It’s good to get George’s input. You can’t deny he knows the characters inside out, since well, he created them. It’s an interesting situation. Once you create something, you can’t control how it’s interpreted.

68 responses

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    1. Actually the best part of the article was :

      Q: When do you think the sixth book will be finished?

      A: When it’s done.

      Pretty sure he just politely gave you the finger, Daily Beast.

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    2. Once you create something, you can’t control how it’s interpreted.

      We as the audience are so different; to think we all interpret that scene exactly the same is very strange. You can explain all you want but frankly, unless you plan to explain away all your life something like that, I think you need make sure it comes out the way you intended it, especially when it is such a delicate subject to begin with. Otherwise be prepared to have that as filed under “controversial” with many not agreeing it was consensual sex.

      I remember the Viggo Mortensen/ Maria Bello stair scene from “A History of Violence”. I have the feeling of debating that. Strangely enough they wanted it to come accross as controversial. Good twisted scene too. Excellently acted.

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    3. I was surprised people got upset at the sept scene. Have people forgotten how messed up Jaime and Cersei were? Just look back at season 1 episode 3 when they make love after Cersei slapped Jaime and Jaime has her in a bear hug.

      For all we know their sex life has always been one with shadows of violence and never a healthy one.

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    4. The truth is that the show screwed up in depicting that scene. George is right, they shouldn’t have Jaime return to King’s Landing so soon. That’s why they should avoid making those minor changes that screw up something in a future storyline.

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    5. LOL at the Pope Julius II vs Michelangelo Q&A exchange there at the end!

      Pope Julius II: When will you make an end?
      Michelangelo: When I am finished!

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    6. I always found the scene in the book disturbing. There, Jaime makes advances, Cersei rejects him and fights him off, and then she gives in when he doesn’t knock it off. That’s not consensual, it’s capitulation. I don’t quite understand why fans are fine with that. It’s not a romantic moment, but one when pain and frustration and lust and some odd mixture of love all coagulate. As someone pointed out, I can see that they already set up in the show that their relationship was somewhat animalistic and rough, and sister, lover, or both, women are still almost chattel in this world. W

      It’s frustrating in the show because they could have avoided the controversy completely by adding in a couple of lines or letting the shot linger for a few more seconds. I love season 4 but there were a couple of scenes that really let things down all due to being cut short (Yara’s attack on the Dreadfort being another.)

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    7. I actually find George’s thoughts on the scene kind of irrelevant. He is of course, the foremost authority on the characters as written in his books. But on the show, as he freely admits, some changes to the narratives have completely changed the context of some of the interactions. He can’t comment on that scene with any kind of certainty because Jaime’s early arrival in King’s Landing and his previous interactions with Cersei alter the dynamic of this scene dramatically.

      Really, the only people who can comment on the scene with a degree of authority are Dan and Dave and they choose not to talk about it. Everyone else (including the director) is just guessing at motivations and that’s probably not a good way to analyze anything.

      As a fan, interpret it as you choose to interpret it and move on. This topic has sucked the life out of the fandom. I appreciate a good discussion as much as anyone but this has been wrung clean of anything resembling insight long ago. If you didn’t like the way it went, chalk it up to 1 minute of the show that didn’t make you happy and enjoy the many, many other minutes that did.

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    8. King Tommen:

      As a fan, interpret it as you choose to interpret it and move on. This topic has sucked the life out of the fandom. I appreciate a good discussion as much as anyone but this has been wrung clean of anything resembling insight long ago. If you didn’t like the way it went, chalk it up to 1 minute of the show that didn’t make you happy and enjoy the many, many other minutes that did.

      Agree. I dread what is to follow in this thread…

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    9. I don’t understand how people who have seen the scene can call it something other than rape. Cersei is struggling against him and keeps saying “no” while Jaime forces himself on her, adding “I don’t care”. What else could you possibly call it?

      George has said earlier that the scene was supposed to be disturbing in the books but not in the context the show has created. And I think that’s a fair point. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is already disturbing, the fact that it’s consensual being one of the factors. You don’t need to add rape to it.

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    10. Arkash,

      Seconded.

      King Tommen,

      I feel the same way.

      The scene has become the go to “evidence” that D&D have ruined a character or the show in general and it is coming up in posts completely unrelated to the scene itself.

      I can understand why it is posted since GRRM himself commented on it, but…. I think all minds are made up on this point and it may just be time to move on.

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    11. Really, the only people who can comment on the scene with a degree of authority are Dan and Dave and they choose not to talk about it. Everyone else (including the director) is just guessing at motivations and that’s probably not a good way to analyze anything.

      The scene has become the go to “evidence” that D&D have ruined a character or the show in general and it is coming up in posts completely unrelated to the scene itself.

      What about Lena Headey?

      “I was kind of shocked by the reaction, actually, because the show is full of crimes against humanity. I found that scene really tough to watch, but I like that—I like my mind being challenged, even if it’s set in this world of Westeros—but the Jaime/Cersei moment, we discussed it and with people losing people that they love, and mothers losing their children, she’s in deep loss and Jaime returns and she loves him, but at the same time she doesn’t want to be near him, but they have all this history and she wanted him. She wanted him. She’s saying “no” for many reasons. She’s saying “no” because of the fucking pain of her loss—she can’t bear what she’s feeling. She was saying, “No, no… not here,” but a lot of stuff was about how, right in that moment, she couldn’t bear to feel what she was feeling and wanted him to take some of that away.”

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/17/game-of-thrones-lena-headey-on-cersei-lannister-s-future-and-that-controversial-rape-scene.html

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    12. The only shocking thing was that people didn’t think the book scene was rape, she only protested and protested and banged her fists against his chest… but this is not a can of worms that should be opened again

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    13. Satele:
      I don’t understand how people who have seen the scene can call it something other than rape. Cersei is struggling against him and keeps saying “no” while Jaime forces himself on her, adding “I don’t care”. What else could you possibly call it?

      George has said earlier that the scene was supposed to be disturbing in the books but not in the context the show has created. And I think that’s a fair point. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is already disturbing, the fact that it’s consensual being one of the factors. You don’t need to add rape to it.

      Seconded. Very well said.

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    14. I do wish they’d included my dialogue from the books because I think that would have been seen in a different context.

      Like when Cersei says “Yes!”? That would’ve cleared up, like, everything. I, like many of you, am done to death over this one, but I think it irresponsible to just watch it and move on when what so clearly on the screen was rape when it was clearly not intended to be (also, never REALLY got to say my piece on this when it came up, I was too busy schooling Reddit Feminists on choosing better battles. Yay. Fuckin Fansided. Anyhoo…). It doesn’t take much more than acknowledging that, and checking/educating oneself about consent if they seriously don’t see that as rape. And the show runners just need to be more careful in the future. There’s a tightrope difference between violent sex and rape, but it all hinges on consent. If you’re trying to portray rape, leave it out, otherwise, one fucking YES isn’t going to ruin the dialogue.

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    15. Mormont:
      The only shocking thing was that people didn’t think the book scene was rape, she only protested and protested and banged her fists against his chest… but this is not a can of worms that should be opened again

      It was not rape in the book. Did you even read the article? GRRM clearly states that he wish they would have included the dialogue in the book which means his version is consensual

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    16. I’m not quite sure I want to get into this again, but what always struck me as funny was, that the scene was almost exclusively discussed in terms of what it supposedly did to Jaime’s character, and there was almost no attention paid to Cersei’s role in it.

      Basically, what happened in that scene was: Her older son had just been murdered, with her believing her youngest brother to be the killer; her younger son was pretty much abducted from her side by her father; and finally her brother/lover begins forcing himself upon her.

      Now which scenario would have left her looking weaker as a character? Her giving in and eventually consenting – if that is even possible? Or her being physically overpowered?

      I think if you actually put the focus on Cersei, the show scene is much stronger than the book version. Her whole world collapsed within that scene and I think it will make her story from there on onwards all the more believable.

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    17. Some of my casual friends thought it was rape, some didn’t and most didn’t care…so I guess not all of us intrepreted the scene exactly the same way

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    18. Turncloak,

      I don’t quite see how that “kills” my argument. I was mainly talking about how that scene seemed truer as far as Cersei’s character was concerned without her consenting under those particular circumstances.

      The fact that she later, quite some time after the events of the sept, once again chose Jaime as her lover or ally – the scene you mention did seemed quite cold to me, although that might simply be due to the characters involved – doesn’t really change anything about the dynamics of that particular scene.

      In fact, her choosing him after he raped her seems like a rather irrational thing to do. And isn’t that exactly where Cersei’s going?

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    19. I don’t know ,to me i didn’t seem like rape but not really consensual either, remember that scene in season 1 with Jaime and Cersei where they talk about Bran and Jaime kinda forces himself into Cersei and she didn’t really want it but she kinda did too, that’s how i saw this scene too so it definitely isn’t out of character at least not in the tv show canon like some people say it is, i see it as a complicated relashionship between two complicated characters,nothing more,nothing less .

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    20. Strider,

      What a load of garbage. These kind of “speaking for us all” comments are utterly ludicrous. Speak for yourself man. I never interpreted the scene as a straight-up rape, and never will, because that’s not what I saw. I saw very forceful sex with lots of power-play erotic dynamics. If you can’t see that then clearly you don’t understand the games that are played between people on a daily basis, and which Game of Thrones depicts constantly throughout.

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    21. Arkash:
      Dammit, not that again… let’s get over it.

      Hear, hear.

      It wasn’t well done in a lot of people’s opinions but come on let it go already. It’s getting boring.
      A child had his parents killed and eaten in front of him in the same episode and no one batted an eyelid!

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    22. Here’s the thing: if you don’t want to talk about it, then you don’t have to. For many people, the subject of rape is more difficult than murder because well- they’ve never survived being murdered. And Thenns are pretty over the top. I think the horror movie vibe made it easier to detach from their stuff. The Jaime/Cersei scene might’ve hit very close to home for a lot of people, with its ambiguity.
      That’s one reason I made sure the topic was right up there in the headline, so no one got tricked into reading what I know was either a rough subject or just an annoying subject for some who are tired of the debate. But George discussing it in detail is news.
      As much as I would myself prefer good casting news. Never fear, I never stop hunting for that!

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    23. Rien,

      I’ve read your comment. Compared it to Strider’s. Read your comment again. Read Strider’s.

      Yours doesn’t make any sense, it’s like you meant to reply to someone else’s post.

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    24. Sue the Fury,

      It’s clear what the post is about so I don’t think anyone who is likely to be triggered by the topic will venture in here unknowingly. While I don’t care to discuss the issue any more, I think you’re right to report the story and let those who want to debate it do so.

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    25. Sue the Fury,

      Wasn’t having a go at your reporting of it as it is a legit news story. It’s just that it’s like Dracula. Just keeps coming back when you think it’s finally been laid to rest! Hopefully now George has made his position clear people can start letting it go.
      At the risk of contributing to something I’m sick of, I get that rape is a horrible ordeal for people who’ve suffered it but this is a TV show designed to tell a story. In this rather vicious fantasy world where the more powerful take what they want then rape is par for the course, as is the killing of men, women and children, backstabbing, cannibalism, manipulation, mutilation and child abuse. I think most people get this and have more of an issue with how it differs from the books. The books are different from the show as everyone is now fully aware so the only thing that can be moaned about is how it’s not portrayed the way in which you would have liked it to be (sure we’ve all got scenes/plotlines like that).
      Personally, I heard the furore about the scene before I saw the episode and went in angry about it. When it got to the scene it was nowhere near as bad as I thought it was going to be. In my opinion , I don’t think it was rape. I’m happy to accept that some people think it was and I wouldn’t argue as it’s a very ambigious scene. I don’t think Graves is a great director and the scene itself was badly done whatever it’s intentions.
      GoT is never going to be PC as that’s not the world it is. I don’t think applying values that we have as a society to a medieval fantasy world is doing anyone any favours.
      ….I’d like to think I’ll now follow my own advice and not speak of it anymore!

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    26. The scene in the book was rape too. He forced himself on her while she was saying no. I’m pretty black and white about this, that’s rape, no matter what the history between the two, or if it was the first time they saw each other in months, or the reason for the no, or if she eventually “consented” (or submitted). I find defenses of the book scene more offensive than the version in the tv series, honestly.

      The only thing they changed was Cersei’s reaction. Personally, I think her saying “yes” to the person raping her is more troublesome than her consistently resisting his advances. So I prefer the show version of the scene.

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    27. Sue the Fury,

      Hope it will not sound too offensive but when i am hearing that rape is something much more worse than murder, my blood actually boils.
      I am from Poland and my stepfather was killed during the martial law. My brother was always remembering him very well. In late 80’s he was sentenced and put to the maximum security prison for mutilation of one of ZOMO officers. He got several times raped during his sentence. After he went out he was always telling that he would like to be raped much more times if that would bring his father back to life.
      I think that a lot of mothers who lost their child had the same way of thinking.

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    28. mariamb,

      I agree as well. It was a bad scene. My least favorite scene of GOT.

      BUT- for crying out loud can we move on? Every single bit of media coverage since has been “The final White Walker invasion of the Wall episode happened last night, six seasons after the controversial Jaime rape episode.” It has become “Game of Thrones, that show where Jaime rapes Cersei”

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    29. I thought the book version was completely disturbing (as was the show). People get so upset because they want to have this great version of “redeemed hero” Jaime but the reality is that Jaime goes up and down in his approach to things. He still tends to be an asshole jerk off and on — just because he met Brienne doesn’t change that.

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    30. People are still talking about this? Geeze… Look what the internet has come to: white-knighting over Cersei Lannister, from all fictional female characters, for months…

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    31. Patchy Face:
      I thought the book version was completely disturbing (as was the show).People get so upset because they want to have this great version of “redeemed hero” Jaime but the reality is that Jaime goes up and down in his approach to things.He still tends to be an asshole jerk off and on — just because he met Brienne doesn’t change that.

      What? Jaime is SOOOOO REDEEMED. Redemption is spelt Jaime backwards. He was a jerk before, after his journey with Brienne, he’s our perfect redeemed hero.

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    32. DILLAN,

      I’m so sorry for what your family has had to endure.

      I don’t think anyone is suggesting that murder isn’t a horrible, grievous crime, or that it is in any way correct or fair to draw comparison with another awful crime. It’s never a matter of measuring who suffered more as it’s all simply beyond reason and comprehension.

      I think Sue was more pointing out why this issue has resonated with so many, to the point of cropping up in nearly every post in which Jaime, Cersei, D&D, or Alex Graves is mentioned. Her comment was in response to earlier comments expressing frustration with the seemingly endless discussion of the sept scene.

      The reason why the discussion continues is a complicated one. The truth is that many rape victims do survive to tell the tale, and so are alive to engage in debates about scenes like the one in the sept, as are those who know them or those who have been affected by rape in some way. I think we can agree that rape is a heinous, monstrous crime and that for many of those who have experienced it, it’s the absolute worst thing to have happened to them. They have no other points of comparison, and even if they did, it remains completely subjective because different events impact different people in very different ways. I think many of us know someone who has been impacted by rape, and so topics like the sept scene hit a nerve and demand response.

      Murder victims do not survive the crime, so can’t turn out in droves to respond to something that reminds them of the event. Additionally (and this is where it really gets hazy, so I’ll keep it to a few clumsy words), murder registers as less ambiguous than rape for many people, so doesn’t invoke such fierce debate as to what happened, how and what it means. Clearly, the crime of murder affects more than simply the deceased, as you and your brother experienced after the loss of your stepfather. It is so awful and sad that your family has been affected by both rape and murder. I really, really don’t think that there’s anything to be had by trying to compare the two crimes, as both are just unthinkably evil.

      Again, I’m so sorry for what you’ve had to go through. I won’t pretend to know anything of how to respond, but hope that you have someone to talk to about what’s happened, some sort of outlet. Wishing you all the best.

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    33. Cumsprite,

      Yes, I think I misunderstood the “intention” of his post, I think the bolded “exactly” is the stickler here. I initially read his post as yet another person claiming that “everyone” except the show’s creators “saw” a rape. My interpretation was wrong! SHIT!!! Haha. Apologies to Strider if I came off a little brutish. 🙂

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    34. DILLAN,

      I have no idea how you extrapolated that from what I said. Nowhere in the post does it says that rape is worse than murder. I was speculating as to why people have such an extreme reaction to this topic. That is all.

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    35. The sept scene reminds me of the first sex scene between Dany and Drogo. In the books it is written as if it were consensual, and I’ve read many fans who view it that way; but Dany has been sold off to a man she doesn’t know, is operating under a threat of violence from her brother if she doesn’t make Drogo happy, and for all she knows Drogo may hurt her himself if she doesn’t submit. The show clearly portrayed that it was rape. Likewise in the sept scene, Cersei resists but Jaime continues until she eventually “consents,” and many readers apparently consider this consensual as well. It is rape, however, to force yourself upon someone in the hope that they’ll eventually say, “Yes,” at some point. This is exactly what Jaime did to Cersei, and like the scene with Dany and Drogo, the show clearly portrays it as rape.

      I think this is a good fix to the original book scenes which, intentionally or not, work to cover up what is actually going on. They present a malformed understanding of consent that many readers seem to have bought into. Also problematic, though, is that the people responsible for the show version don’t seem to have a correct understanding either. The end result that we see in the show gets it right, though, so I think the show versions of these two scenes, considered on their own, are an improvement.

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    36. Rien,

      Since Strider is not man enough to accept your apology, I will do so on Strider’s behalf. Holds some serious grudges, that one.

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    37. TaviColen123:
      Wait why was my comment deleted ?

      This is a sensitive topic, and your post was offensive to the point of trolling. We’re not going down this road that we went down all the time at WiC. This is a new site, let’s make a fresh start.

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    38. Rien,

      Just a misunderstanding. No biggie! 🙂

      Cumsprite,

      Not man enough, eh?! You might be right there! And you obviously know all about my black list so I’ll give you the grudge thing too lol

      Don’t want to contradict you, you see Mr. Sprite? Your galloping around the thread righting the wrongs and everything was a thing to behold! You lack excercise, and you are a bit rusty, but I think we might make a true knight outta you yet!!!

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    39. I’ll just use this as another excuse to assert that Lena Headey is awesome, and she does so much to make Cersei amazing, and Season 5, methinks, is going to belong to her.

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    40. Sue the Fury: But George discussing it in detail is news.

      Not really. He said the exact same thing 3 months ago.

      ““I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

      The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

      Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

      If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

      That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.””

      And you know that very well, since it was reported on WiC.net back then, and you made several comments about it.

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    41. Rien:
      Strider,

      What a load of garbage. These kind of “speaking for us all” comments are utterly ludicrous. Speak for yourself man. I never interpreted the scene as a straight-up rape, and never will, because that’s not what I saw. I saw very forceful sex with lots of power-play erotic dynamics. If you can’t see that then clearly you don’t understand the games that are played between people on a daily basis, and which Game of Thrones depicts constantly throughout.

      Exactly my thoughts…things in life are faaaar more complicated

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    42. They digitally altered the George Bush head-on-a-spike for the re-release of the blu-ray of season 1 when the controversy erupted. Why don’t they just have Lena rerecord some dialogue for the sept scene for the DVD by adding in her moaning “yes” or something to clear up the confusion.

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    43. tormond thunderdome giantsbain,

      Yes, it is incest, which makes the relationship disturbing in the fist place. But it is also portrayed as a consensual relationship. Both in the books and on the show up to this point. That’s one of the factors why it’s so wrong. They trust each other and they love each other. Rape just shouldn’t be a plausible thing to happen between them.

      Look, what I’m trying to say (very badly, probably) is that even if you willingly choose to sleep with your twin hundred times, you still don’t deserve to be raped by them.

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    44. zod: Not really. He said the exact same thing 3 months ago.

      And you know that very well, since it was reported on WiC.net back then, and you made several comments about it.

      It wasn’t the exact same thing. And you can’t seriously expect me to remember all the quotes from months ago, considering how many article posts I handle and moderate.
      Like I said, if you don’t enjoy the topic, don’t post in it. I don’t really see why it’s a big deal for some people.

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    45. Turncloak: It was not rape in the book. Did you even read the article? GRRM clearly states that he wish they would have included the dialogue in the book which means his version is consensual

      I’ve read what GRRM said, and he is wrong. By modern standards, it definitely counts as a forced encounter, as she only said something akin to yes AFTER Jaime had already assaulted her. Just because GRRM says something doesn’t make his interpretation completely correct; otherwise, it would be extremely hypocritical to say that Alex Grave’s comments on the scene were incorrect, since he’s the one that directed it.

      I personally didn’t view it as assault in the context of their relationship and the setting, but I can see why some others can. I wasn’t a fan of both versions, though, but view the show’s version to be slightly better due to it being more in-line with Cersei’s character, in my opinion.

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    46. Pau,

      Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions. However, you might want to be careful of using the term “garbage” and Lady Strider in the same context. I assume that was an accident on your part and it won’t happen again. 🙂

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    47. The biggest problem for me is that even the people responsible for the scene (director, writers,producers, actors) don’t seem to agree on what was depicted in the scene. I remember the director saying it was NOT rape, Nikolaj saying Jaime did try to force himself on Cercei, and Lena saying something along the lines of “it’s complicated”. The producers haven’t said anything so far, IIRC. So, my interpretation of all this it’s that the scene was poorly made, and that the director shot a rape scene without even realizing it.That is what is disturbing to me. If it was meant a rape, we haven’t seen any consequences at all to suggest so. The right thing for me would be for them to admit it was badly made and do something to fix it in the DVD. I wouldn’t mind them editing out some of that disgusting rapesploitation stuff at Craster’s Keep, although Of course it’s not going to happen. These scenes almost put me off the show.

      Congratulations on the new site. May it always remain free of misogynist trolls.

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    48. TheTouchOfFrost,

      TheTouchOfFrost: A child had his parents killed and eaten in front of him in the same episode and no one batted an eyelid!

      We’re not comparing atrocities here. The problem is that no one doubts or disputes that those villagers were killed and eaten whereas people doubt and dispute that Cersei was raped despite the clear, obvious, undeniable evidence before them. People seem to think that rape is a complex, ‘shades of grey’ thing when really it’s anything but. If one person makes it clear that they don’t want sex (as Cersei did, multiple times) and the other person continues to have sex with them, IT IS RAPE. And what gets people upset about this is not the depiction of rape, but the fact that not only fans but the director and actors responsible for the scene didn’t realise that what they were depicting was clear-cut, unambiguous RAPE, and even claim after the fact that the scene depicted consensual sex. What kind of message does that give to those at risk of being raped, or those who have been raped and are already scared about coming forward?

      This is just so, so typical of the culture of rape denial / minimisation that exists throughout the entire world and it sickens me. I sincerely wish this hadn’t been bought up again as it upset me enough the first time.

        Quote  Reply

    49. tormond thunderdome giantsbain:
      Satele,

      well….call it what will …i call it incest which imo trumps all the petty stuff..pretty certain thats next level

      Incest isn’t a worse offense than rape, in any way whatsoever. An incestuous act between two consenting adults is far, far less morally wrong and damaging than rape. The idea that lots of people think otherwise makes me despair at how messed up people’s values are.

      The fact that you’re referring to rape as ‘petty stuff’ is disgusting, by the way.

        Quote  Reply

    50. I know them both are kinda weird and crazy (even tho jaime change a lot in the book after his time with brienne, i like him so much more after it too. i kinda wanna know if they’re gonna make this and how he stops having sex with cersei… tho in the book was after this scene, idk…) but i do think these story-writers, director and all are kinda rape entusiast. i mean, dani and drogo scene, ramsay and sansa…

        Quote  Reply

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