Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 6 photos released, showing Daenerys triumphant and a worried Tyrion!

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Photo courtesy of HBO

We’re here, everyone. We’ve arrived at the far side of the epic tale we began eight seasons and nearly 10 years ago. I hope I’m not sounding too emotional, but knowing that this is the last-ever “official photos post” I’ll put together for Game of Thrones is making me a bit teary-eyed on this bright Wednesday morning.

Anyway, let’s dive in: the official photos for the series finale are here!

Not that there’s much to speculate on — they are being particularly secretive about this one, folks. Aside from the Daenerys screen capture above, HBO has only shared this Tyrion photo taken by official Game of Thrones photographer Helen Sloan:

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Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister. Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

So what do these images say to you? What will the final episode of our beloved Thrones entail? Let us know in the comments below!

425 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I dont wanna sound nit-picky but… could someone explain me how does danny still ave that many unsullied left? JK

      Guys, I am very nervous about this episode, GRR Martin / D&D / the cast promised us a bittersweet ending, and, for the looks of it Jon may kill Daenerys, or something crazy will happen where many people die, I just feel like this cannot end well, idk.

      I wanna see the sweet part!

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    2. They fckng ruined Daenerys, but alas, at least she looks perfect. I mean, if her character development was actually done instead of making her lose her mind in two episodes, I would have love this shot. She freaking rules!

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    3. Dany still needs to do the throne room scene from the HotU vision.

      Then it’s anyone’s guess.

      I suspect/hope that this will be a big Bran reveal episode.

      I wouldn’t be surprised to hear Dany claim that someone was talking in her ear when she paused on Drogon before burning the city.

      Dany is exactly where she is supposed to be.

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    4. AlvWaynwood: I dont wanna sound nit-picky but… could someone explain me how does danny still ave that many unsullied left? JK

      Every army lost about half of their men in The Long Night. They should’ve done a better job at showing this in that episode, because it did look like almost everyone was wiped out.

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    5. So, the conventional thinking would be Jon vs Dany in the endgame, right? But tickets this is a sorry that consistently defies convention, this would suggest Arya or someone else will be the one to stop Dany.

      But does that become the conventional thinking, especially after Arya’s defeat of the Night King?! Or maybe this will all go in a totally unexpected direction, also Door Number Three.

      Either way, I can’t wait to see how this ends. I understand all the emotions for the ending – people blowing their stacks over finales is nothing new, I’ve seen this before (Sex In The City – “no way she’d go with Big!”/The Sopranos “So Tony’s dead after my cable went out?”/Lost “Wait, they were in purgatory the whole time after all?”); peeps are allowed their viewpoints but opinions aren’t facts, no matter how strongly we feel them or how loudly we share them.

      I appreciate all the positive and critical thinking peeps, you are the reason this fandom may be dead but will never die!

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    6. Couldn’t agree more.

      She literally had 20 unsullied in episode 4, then around 500 in episode 5, now there looks to be a few thousand there. What gives?

      And while we’re on the nitpick train.. where in the HELL did that large open plaza come from? I don’t ever recall seeing that on any of the aerial shots. Did all those unsullied clear the ruined remnants of the Red Keep in the space of an afternoon?

      I know I’m being pedantic but the effort and detail they pour into these sets are just astonishing- and yet the VFX team can’t even get the continuity and city layout right after 8 seasons (not to mention the disappearing mountains outside KL and ruins of The great sept of Baelor). 🙈

      AlvWaynwood:
      I dont wanna sound nit-picky but… could someone explain me how does danny still ave that many unsulliedleft? JK

      Guys, I am very nervous about this episode, GRR Martin / D&D / the cast promised us a bittersweet ending, and, for the looks of it Jon may kill Daenerys, or something crazy will happen where many people die, I just feel like this cannot end well, idk.

      I wanna see the sweet part!

        Quote  Reply

    7. Ryan,

      Did you watch next episode? When they were in the war room, looking at what they were left with after the battle, and preparing for King’s Landing? Everyone got half their troops off the board. Again, this wasn’t shown properly during the battle (though, honestly, I thought from the episode that more Dothraki were left alive than Unsullied), but it was at least said next episode. So the fact that there’re still some around shouldn’t be a surprise.

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    8. At this point I feel the message of the series should be that absolutely monarchy is evil and must be destroyed if it can so completely corrupt a gentle heart like Dany.

      My hope is this is what Jon will realize, in the end, and he will turn down the throne and disappear into obscurity after Dany is dead. This will leave people like Sansa, Tyrion, Brienne, and Davos to pick up the pieces and move forward. This to me would be bittersweet… Dany will break the wheel, though not of her own choice.

      If it ends with anyone (even a good person like Jon) ruling as a king/queen on the throne I feel the message is just about as nihilistic as a night king wins end would be. That power corrupts but humans cannot find a way out of it, and it is a never ending wheel that will keep destroying innocent life forever.

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    9. Apollo: And while we’re on the nitpick train.. where in the HELL did that large open plaza come from? I don’t ever recall seeing that on any of the aerial shots. Did all those unsullied clear the ruined remnants of the Red Keep in the space of an afternoon?

      That plaza has been there all of the season. I can show you pictures if you want. Before, we never truly got a good look at the Red Keep from above.

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    10. Dany did not lose her mind in two episodes. This has been coming for a long time. Dany would have done this seasons ago if not for the stabilizing forces around her, who have kept her in check. If they had done anything else, I would have been shocked.

      I really believe that the underlying message here–and I believe it will be the same with the books, even if they take a different path or do it a different way–is that all this obsession with prophecy and destiny is foolish. You have to choose your own path. Azor Ahai was a huge red herring–and I love that. The valonqar–huge red herring, and I love that. GRRM said from the beginning that he wanted to tell a fantasy story that subverts the fantasy tropes. But the only way to do that is to set up those tropes and have us buy into them.

      If you are disappointed that Azor Ahai was a red herring, to quote Ramsay Bolton, “you haven’t been paying attention.”

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    11. I’m pretty sure Jon has to kill Dany, Nissa Nissa style in order to fulfil the Lord of lights plans. Then he’ll simply die like Mel and Beric.

      And I’m convinced there’s still a huge twist with Bran to come in the finale.

      Wonder what Sansa’s reaction will be when she’s sees the result of her Littlefingering ways. Still, it’ll likely win her the throne which beforehand I’d have been happy with. Not at the cost of thousands of innocent lives though.

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    12. Only two??? 😱

      I am worried about Tyrion, Jon, and Sansa b/c they are high on the list of “betrayers.” What’s to stop Dany from hopping on Drogon and flying up to Winterfell and laying waste to it?

      Hurry, Arya, hurry!

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    13. Apollo: She literally had 20 unsullied in episode 4, then around 500 in episode 5, now there looks to be a few thousand there. What gives?

      ITs’ confusing. Best I can tell here’s what happened:

      Lots of unsullied retreated in the long night along with the northmen – just 1 batallion was left to hold back the undead while the ditch was lit. However they didn’t appear again in the episode which is extremely confusing. Dothraki similar.

      In ep 4, there were only ~20 of them because those were the survivors of the unsullied who were on the boats. The bulk of the unsullied, apparently (?) were marching with the northmen because Dany didn’t have enough boats left to carry them all.

      In ep 5, then, the rest of the unsullied as well as the Dothraki have made it. They are mixed together with northmen, so not as obvious how many there are.

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    14. QueenofThrones: The bulk of the unsullied, apparently (?) were marching with the northmen because Dany didn’t have enough boats left to carry them all.

      Not only “apparently”. Tyrion said this would be the case in episode four.

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    15. JenStar Runner: I am worried about Tyrion, Jon, and Sansa b/c they are high on the list of “betrayers.”

      I mean. Tyrion is literally a traitor. The fact that he continues to claim to be “loyal” does not change what he did.

      We learned in the last episode that not only did he plot Cersei’s escape from King’s Landing and release Jaime, but that it now seems to be *extremely probable* that he has been purposefully preventing Dany from attacking Cersei since the start of season 7 because he wants Cersei to live.

      Tyrion looked troubled at the end of Season 7 because he knew an alliance between Dany and Jon would prove too powerful for Cersei to stop.

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    16. The Unsullied seem to multiply.

      Are they like worms: hack one in two pieces and you have two Unsullied, hack in four pieces and you have four.

      Grey Worm

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    17. Luka Nieto: That plaza has been there all of the season. I can show you pictures if you want. Before, we never truly got a good look at the Red Keep from above.

      Truth be told, Joffrey had Ned Stark executed in front of a large crowd in an open part of the city way back in season one. Might or might not be the same spot, but let’s not pretend Kings Landing has no open spaces for a city of a million people.

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    18. Raenarys,

      Because life (and stories) require many components to get to somewhere significant. I may not think of the airline when I reminisce about my enjoyment of a vacation, but the plane was still hugely important to my getting there.

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    19. QueenofThrones:
      At this point I feel the message of the series should be that absolutely monarchy is evil and must be destroyed if it can so completely corrupt a gentle heart like Dany.

      My hope is this is what Jon will realize, in the end, and he will turn down the throne and disappear into obscurity after Dany is dead.This will leave people like Sansa, Tyrion, Brienne, and Davos to pick up the pieces and move forward.This to me would be bittersweet…Dany will break the wheel, though not of her own choice.

      If it ends with anyone (even a good person like Jon) ruling as a king/queen on the throne I feel the message is just about as nihilistic as a night king wins end would be.That power corrupts but humans cannot find a way out of it, and it is a never ending wheel that will keep destroying innocent life forever.

      Joanna Robinson from Vanity Fair compared the throne to the Ring of Power, seems legit to me. That thing has got to go, and yes I think Jon will retire to the North and live out his days with Tormund.

      I agree about Dany as well, you don’t break the wheel by restoring an old royal family, her (inevitable) death will bring about the change she claimed to want. My theory is that Bran will pass on the story making her seem like a hero, the victors write history after all.

      Also, is that snow?

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    20. Most realistic scenario would be Dany executing the Starks and ruling for next 30 years providing stability. Obviously that is not going to happen, but in reality even Jon has no legitimacy in the South but take him out why would anyone accept Bran or someone else… The council is a recipe for conflict, ie weak central government, no clear succession, no standing army etc…and there would be war within months. of course they are not going to show that.

      Anyways glad the GRRM mentioned in all these interviews about Jon and Dany learning how to rule, Aragon tax policy etc… am glad jon was resurrected simply to kill his aunt, blah blah…. no question Dany burns KL but Jon not present and this is done before the Others so she is feared and hated when she goes north but she still does. Also maybe Arya witness carnage in an Essos city, i mean dany is going to sweep across essos first. No doubt Cersei ends earlier in books, it was evident they had no idea what Cersei was doing this whole season. No doubt Arya is not in KL for the burning etc…. so given they had changed/omitted so much, they should have played up ruthlessness and forgotten about Mad/snapping. She is as tyrion described Aegon reborn, a Genghis Khan figure and razing cities would not be out of character if you go that route, but then there should first have been the Surrender or die threat, not surrender and die. so am disappointed, very disappointed at all the gaps etc…

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    21. Cryptkeeper: Truth be told, Joffrey had Ned Stark executed in front of a large crowd in an open part of the city way back in season one. Might or might not be the same spot, but let’s not pretend Kings Landing has no open spaces for a city of a million people.

      That was in front of the Sept of Baelor. This is part of the Red Keep.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Luka Nieto,

      Yes I did. I also watched the Behind the Scenes for the Long Night where Benioff literally says “What they see is the end of the Dothraki, essentially” and Weiss says the Dothraki are “decimated”. And it certainly seemed like all of them during the actual battle. So again, just more bad writing or bad continuity to only lose “half” of them and have plenty left for the KL battle.

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    23. talvikorppi:
      The Unsullied seem to multiply.

      Are they like worms: hack one in two pieces and you have two Unsullied, hack in four pieces and you have four.

      Grey Worm

      I count about 50 rows of about 50 Unsullied each, perhaps up to 3,000. Dany started with 8,000 Unsullied. Some died even before reaching Winterfell. But if only 6,000 survived until the battle of Winterfell, half of that is 3,000. So no, this is not the same. But it was said in Episode 4 that most of the Unsullied would march south with Jon. Those were the same Unsullied that Jon referred to when speaking to Varys that were at the Trident. Dany only had the Unsullied she took with her on the ships that Euron destroyed.

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    24. David Thomas,

      While I’m not into people parroting Ramsey’s oft-cited like about paying attention, I have been highly amused at the amount of animosity people are displaying toward the show for doing away with the prophecies – as if that wasn’t something GRRM has been establishing in the texts, and as if this wasn’t the kind of story that was saying Fuck Prophecy to begin with.

      People are wrong, often and detrimentally so. In life and in this fictional universe. Once people cool off, maybe they’ll see the forest for them trees…

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    25. Tobias Umber,

      In the vision in the HotU the throne and floor are covered with snow. The directors have said so, even Emilia confirmed that detail. The actual throne, now, is covered with ashes…I’m not sure how the show writers would explain that?

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    26. Luka Nieto: That plaza has been there all of the season. I can show you pictures if you want. Before, we never truly got a good look at the Red Keep from above.

      Isn’t it the same plaza that Cersei “invited” the human shields into the Red Keep? They also showed Arya and the Hound walking through it briefly. And we also know from the teaser that Arya is hanging out in one of those breezeways on either the left or right side. I wish she had a bow and arrow.

      One of the shots I really liked in the last episode was an aerial view of the Red Keep and all it’s many enclosed open spaces. I never could get a sense of the geography of the place in previous KL-centric episodes.

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    27. AAuteur: the show for doing away with the prophecies

      But Cersei’s prophecy in the show did come true, in every aspect. There was no subversion. She was literally cast down (red keep fell on her head due to Dany attacking it) and all she held dear at that moment was taken from her. Her life, her power, the throne, Jaime.

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    28. QueenofThrones: I mean.Tyrion is literally a traitor.The fact that he continues to claim to be “loyal” does not change what he did.

      We learned in the last episode that not only did he plot Cersei’s escape from King’s Landing and release Jaime, but that it now seems to be *extremely probable* that he has been purposefully preventing Dany from attacking Cersei since the start of season 7 because he wants Cersei to live.

      Tyrion looked troubled at the end of Season 7 because he knew an alliance between Dany and Jon would prove too powerful for Cersei to stop.

      I don’t disagree, but he’s still on the side of the ever-changing “good guys” in my book. So, I don’t want to see her execute him.

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    29. Ryan,

      Technically, they were more than “decimated.” Half of them were wiped out. As for “the end of the Dothraki,” have you heard of hyperbole? Jeez.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Ryan,

      It doesn’t matter what the showrunners say, all that matters is what is presented in the show. The show is canon, D&D’s comments are not.

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    31. JenStar Runner: I don’t disagree, but he’s still on the side of the ever-changing “good guys” in my book. So, I don’t want to see her execute him.

      Nor do I. I was reacting to the use of scare quotes as if he didn’t actually betray Dany. He absolutely did. Many times over.

      I would be extremely surprised if Tyrion dies.

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    32. QueenofThrones: We learned in the last episode that not only did he plot Cersei’s escape from King’s Landing and release Jaime, but that it now seems to be *extremely probable* that he has been purposefully preventing Dany from attacking Cersei since the start of season 7 because he wants Cersei to live.

      I don’t understand what they have done with his character. So all his “mistakes” were just sabotaging Dany? That doesn’t make sense to me. Cersei sent Bronn to kill him and Jaime and they just ignore that? Tyrion turns in Varys for treason, but then commits it himself almost immediately? The only redeeming thing in all this is that Peter is a great actor and has done all he can with this nonsense.

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    33. This is a point that’s often made, and sure, we all understand that losing one’s support network can have devastating effect on a person’s mental health.

      But we’re talking about an incompressible degree of madness here- burning half a million men, women and children to death. I don’t get how that level of insanity could ever be kept in check by having some close advisors and a fan base.

      David Thomas:
      Dany did not lose her mind in two episodes. This has been coming for a long time. Dany would have done this seasons ago if not for the stabilizing forces around her, who have kept her in check. If they had done anything else, I would have been shocked.

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    34. JenStar Runner,

      If he has been conspiring with Cersei since the beginning, then he probably has to pay the price, but if he is only guilty of trying to help Jaime and Cersei out of the battle, then I don’t mind. Dany is the big bad now, and I don’t much care if she is upset with him, get rid of her.

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    35. I don’t even want to watch but after all these years, I can’t just let it go. I just hope that at the very least we get Dany’s POV now, even if it is too little too late. Give us something to at least try to understand why.

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    36. Ryan:
      Luka Nieto,

      And all of the Dothraki, yet they keep magically appearing.

      Yes, D/D literally said “basically seeing the end of the Dothraki”.

      Yes we saw the end of the Dothraki in Episode 3 and it was confirmed in the subsequent Inside the Episode at 2:04

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ1yC3yESLQ&t=45s

      Then they add dialogue to Episode 4 to claim half the Dothraki have been lost, which clearly wasn’t what was put over on screen in the previous episode. I’m not keen on being too nit picky but that was just really obviously going to make audiences start eye rolling.

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    37. Tyrion’s Cape: I don’t understand what they have done with his character.So all his “mistakes” were just sabotaging Dany? That doesn’t make sense to me.Cersei sent Bronn to kill him and Jaime and they just ignore that? Tyrion turns in Varys for treason, but then commits it himself almost immediately? The only redeeming thing in all this is that Peter is a great actor and has done all he can with this nonsense.

      I thought this reveal was kind of moving in a way. Tyrion loves his family after all and puts them first, before his queen, before anyone else. If it was a Stark saving a Stark none of us would blink an eye. The assumption is that the Starks should put each other first – and for the most part they do. But since it’s Lannisters, we don’t see it the same way.

      I don’t believe Tyrion would consciously see it as treachery. He sees it as “tempering the impulses of his queen.” And if that fails, working behind the scenes. He successfully rationalizes his actions as in Dany’s interest. He’s very good at rationalizing.

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    38. Tyrion’s Cape,

      First of all, we have never seen Cersei give the order for their assassination, that could have been Qyburn acting on his own because he may have feared her brothers may still influence her and therefore he would lose his power and second of all it’s clear you’s re still upset by the actions of a fictional character and like a spoiled child you cry about it because it doesn’t fit your vision of the character, spoiler alert: It’s not your tv series or world, you are allowed to not like it but don’t go around throwing bad writing and other reused terms just to throw a fit

        Quote  Reply

    39. Luka Nieto:
      Ryan,

      Did you watch next episode? When they were in the war room, looking at what they were left with after the battle, and preparing for King’s Landing? Everyone got half their troops off the board. Again, this wasn’t shown properly during the battle (though, honestly, I thought from the episode that more Dothraki were left alive than Unsullied), but it was at least said next episode. So the fact that there’re still some around shouldn’t be a surprise.

      I thought the opposite. The unsullied seemed to retreat in good order. (Also, that scene was probably my favorite scenes of a disciplined infantry moving like a well-oiled machine since the opening scene of Rome).

      The Dothraki was harder to tell. When it first happened I was hoping there were more who survived than the handful they showed, and it seems that there were. Good for them – I never could understand how they were going to send them into battle against the dead with steel weapons (at least Melisandre gave them a light at the last minute).

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    40. Luka Nieto,

      Ok, this helps a lot- thanks!

      Care to help a man with where Jon’s army were camped on the eve of the battle? Cos it can’t surely be outside the city, with all those scorpions and the Iron Fleet in Blackwater bay.. 😋

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    41. Young Dragon,

      Kind of like how the effects director says that Strickland’s horse is “annihilated” when the gate is blown out, while the show leads us to believe the horse yelled, fell down, got up and wandered back into the city.

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    42. Luka Nieto,

      Luka Nieto,

      Where was the other “half” of the Dothraki when they went charging into the darkness?

      Sorry. Forgot we’re not allowed to criticize writing here and should just ignore multiple continuity errors. Silly me.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Jack Nabble,

      Yikes this wasn’t really necessary.

      Calm down, people are allowed to have opinions. I found Tyrion’s actions understandable, if obviously treasonous, this poster did not. They aren’t a “spoiled child” for having a different opinion.

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    44. ANiceChianti,

      For the milionth godamn time, that is not the same horse, there can be more than one white horse in the world but hey let’s just ignore logic because i want to point inexistent plotholes !

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    45. It’s interesting that there only seems to be Unsullied and Dothraki in the picture.

      Where are the Northmen and Valemen?

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    46. Luka Nieto:
      JenStar Runner,

      It’s one of those plazas. The Red Keep has many layers. I just did a tweet about it HERE, showing just where that shot from the finale is taking place.

      Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Thanks for the screenshots.

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    47. I am looking for an image of Jon. He wasn’t in the trailer (unless that is he and Davos in the beginning). Daenerys better have all manner of search looking for Jon and Tyrion. I am already a little confused as to why she didn’t seek Jon and Tyrion out during the rampage. Those two are far more important to remove for her rule than some children.

      I suppose Arya avoided detection so she’s a wildcard. Although, she doesn’t look at all that hidden in the trailer.

      trailer

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    48. QueenofThrones: I mean.Tyrion is literally a traitor.The fact that he continues to claim to be “loyal” does not change what he did.

      We learned in the last episode that not only did he plot Cersei’s escape from King’s Landing and release Jaime, but that it now seems to be *extremely probable* that he has been purposefully preventing Dany from attacking Cersei since the start of season 7 because he wants Cersei to live.

      Tyrion looked troubled at the end of Season 7 because he knew an alliance between Dany and Jon would prove too powerful for Cersei to stop.

      That’s a great point. I had forgotten that look Tyrion had on the boat during the season 7 finale. He was a traitor to Dany since landing in Westeros. Only time Dany experienced some success is when she made her own decisions.

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    49. I wonder if we’ll get any resolution for the following characters:

      Yara
      Dario
      Tormund
      Gendry
      Brienne
      Ellaria
      Sam/Gilly/miniSam/miniJon

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    50. Jack Nabble:
      Tyrion’s Cape,

      First of all, we have never seen Cersei give the order for their assassination, that could have been Qyburn acting on his own because he may have feared her brothers may still influence her and therefore he would lose his power and second of all it’s clear you’s re still upset by the actions of a fictional character and like a spoiled child you cry about it because it doesn’t fit your vision of the character, spoiler alert: It’s not your tv series or world, you are allowed to not like it but don’t go around throwing bad writing and other reused terms just to throw a fit

      So, you’re upset that someone else is upset by the actions of a fictional character?

      This isn’t your show either, so you don’t have to feel the need to lose control of your emotions to defend a work of fiction. Get a grip.

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    51. Freddy Veloz:
      They fckng ruined Daenerys, but alas, at least she looks perfect. I mean, if her character development was actually done instead of making her lose her mind in two episodes, I would have love this shot. She freaking rules!

      Kinda, they have flipped things on its head because people are somewhat setup to expect Dany the Wheel Breaker vs Cersei the Sept destroyer etc

      I don’t have an issue generally, there’s something about unconditional love for family in what Jaimie did despite their faults – this holds for Cersei as much for the much despised Tyrion, and as I said elsewhere listen closely at S1E7 which I think is Tywins first scene and the Holdfast scene with everything collapsing (as the Targaryens did) only this time it’s the Lannisters, with the Unsullied + Northerners sacking KL instead of Tywin and things makes a fair bit of sense

      In terms of book lore, the whole thing is a form of reference to Roba and Ned hiding at Stoney Sept, the ringing of those Bells telling the populace to hide as Hand of Aerys Connington went door-to-door in “Battle of the Bells”.

      Connington muses from memory that if he had burned the City then they would have won the battle and stopped Ned and Robert from escaping. In this case burning Red Keep stopped Jaimie and Cersei from escaping and forming an insurgent rebellion

      As does Dany when you consider Rhaego onwards. There are signs there but I think a number of arcs have been a bit rushed so any question relates to execution

      Also the fact we have a visual medium, so while I am baffled by apparent Military tactics, and seemingly re-spawning Armies, I understand they have put Psychological impact on the viewer at the forefront which is why we get 30 minutes of burning terror in the streets and silly charges but with lights slowly going out so fair enough

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    52. King in the North East,

      Not a chance for Daario and he’s not even a character important enough to deserve one, besides i think the actor confirmed way back that he wasn’t returning . I’m more curious about Edmure since someone should rule the Riverlands . And Ellaria is dead, even if she wasn’t before she really is now after the burning .

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    53. Ryan: Where was the other “half” of the Dothraki when they went charging into the darkness?

      Just because we saw the fire go out doesn’t mean they all died. Some died, some retreated, some fled.

      Though I agree with Luka. They really should’ve shown the surviving Unsullied & Dothraki during ep3.

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    54. Jdmgreg,

      I don’t think Tyrion was a traitor. He just wanted to have his cake and eat it too. In this case, Danerys takes the throne without killing his family.

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    55. Mr Derp,

      Wow, you sure told me there/s . You know you don’t receive some points or money for being an internet lawyer right, i’m sure the guy could defend himself if he truly wants !

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    56. Mr Derp: So, you’re upset that someone else is upset by the actions of a fictional character?

      As far as that whole thing goes Jaimie irritation at Cersei sending Bronn after them is probably overridden by concern for his unborn child?

      There’s a reasonable enough explanation for it without delving into the notion there’s been character regression

      Show didn’t delve into filling empty pages on a White Book or Valonqar, though it would have been nice to see a quick scene of Jaimie writing his deeds re battle against White Walkers etc into the book because that was talked about with Joffrey

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    57. The fact that it’s only two photos this time is exciting haha!! I am intrigued ever since reading that Hibberd article about being on set when they were filming the finale and him trying to keep his cool regarding what he was seeing and finally putting the pieces together.

      Of course, my main theory since reading ASOIAF is that there will be no one sitting on the Iron Throne as it will not exist. After The Bells, I wonder if Jon’s role in this finale will to 1. Refuse to rule and 2. Either destroy the IT (if it hasn’t already been destroyed by Dany), or implement something akin to the Kingsmoot, or the Night’s Watch voting (as mentioned by Tyrion in S7). Or maybe a Great Council will be enacted to vote in the next monarch/ruler? Or perhaps the Great Council will be enacted to rule together rather than one monarch. Either way, I hope more power is given to the masses. #AlwaysSupportTheBottom

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    58. King in the North East: Just because we saw the fire go out doesn’t mean they all died. Some died, some retreated, some fled.

      Though I agree with Luka. They really should’ve shown the surviving Unsullied & Dothraki during ep3.

      Yeah on second viewing I noticed some running back around Ser Jorah, so we can presume that across the entirety of the line it adds up to comparatively small yet a fair amount to be able to have a small Cavalry auxiliary unit.

      Some may have been in reserve on Dragonstone too perhaps?

      Unsullied is murkier but common sense wouldn’t have had them all outside in the first place

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    59. QueenofThrones: Nor do I.I was reacting to the use of scare quotes as if he didn’t actually betray Dany.He absolutely did.Many times over.

      I would be extremely surprised if Tyrion dies.

      Maybe. The word betrayal implies a measure of intent to harm or some kind of treachery for the person who perceives she is being betrayed. I don’t believe that Tyrion ever had any intention of harming or outwardly undermining Dany. I think everything he does is for the larger common good, which includes Dany.

      I don’t think he was plotting all along to save Cersei in a way that prioritized Cersei over his duties to Dany. I think he probably thought he could have it both ways. If Cersei could have found it within herself to be more reasonable, he might have succeeded.

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    60. Jack Nabble,

      I disagree. Daenerys seemed very unconcerned with Cersei in the last episode.

      The idea of Daenerys digging through rubble looking for a Cersei rather than finding Jon is laughable. Daenerys knows Jon is her biggest threat. Daenerys should have already torched him. There’s even less reason to delay now.

      GW should have locked Jon up or killed him, along with any other Northerners, as soon as the battle ended.

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    61. Dark Sister:
      The fact that it’s only two photos this time is exciting haha!! I am intrigued ever since reading that Hibberd article about being on set when they were filming the finale and him trying to keep his cool regarding what he was seeing and finally putting the pieces together.

      Of course, my main theory since reading ASOIAF is that there will be no one sitting on the Iron Throne as it will not exist. After The Bells, I wonder if Jon’s role in this finale will to 1. Refuse to rule and 2. Either destroy the IT (if it hasn’t already been destroyed by Dany), or implement something akin to the Kingsmoot, or the Night’s Watch voting (as mentioned by Tyrion in S7). Or maybe a Great Council will be enacted to vote in the next monarch/ruler? Or perhaps the Great Council will be enacted to rule together rather than one monarch. Either way, I hope more power is given to the masses. #AlwaysSupportTheBottom

      Yeah people are irritated but the HoU vision in season 2 foreshadows destruction of Red Keep and by extension KL

      I personally expect Jon to do the whole “just wanted to be a Ranger” thing as he said in S1 when made Steward and in this case go along with what Tormund said and ghost all of Westeros and live beyond the Wall with the Free Folk alongside Ghost (which is why he didn’t say goodbye properly and sent Ghost North in the first place, not to give him away but to meet up later)

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    62. Ghost’s Lunch: Unsullied is murkier but common sense wouldn’t have had them all outside in the first place

      Well, we did see some Unsullied retreat, but then they disappeared from the episode.

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    63. QueenofThrones: ITs’ confusing. Best I can tell here’s what happened:

      Lots of unsullied retreated in the long night along with the northmen – just 1 batallion was left to hold back the undead while the ditch was lit. However they didn’t appear again in the episode which is extremely confusing. Dothraki similar.

      In ep 4, there were only ~20 of them because those were the survivors of the unsullied who were on the boats. The bulk of the unsullied, apparently (?) were marching with the northmen because Dany didn’t have enough boats left to carry them all.

      In ep 5, then, the rest of the unsullied as well as the Dothraki have made it. They are mixed together with northmen, so not as obvious how many there are.

      Yeah it was confusing, because at the end of episode 3 , even in the dark, it looked like only some principals and a dozen or so others left. O well in the DARK it’s hard to tell. Then Grey Worm says “half” the Unsullied in the next episode , we know that number would be 4000 from the show history. So that’s ok.
      The Dothraki, we do see some returning through the lines in Ep3, I can’t tell from the photo above , it could be only a few hundred , some maybe it’s ok, after all she seemed to have brought more Dothraki than Unsullied, tho we never got a count. In fact we did not get a ‘chief’ Dothraki character like Drogo or Khal Moro … Qhono was a tertiary character…. tho I sort of expected him to survive Ep 3. Numbers are one of those details the show plays fast and loose with.
      (I mean in Ep 4 Winterfell seemed more intact than the last images in Ep 3 showed!)

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    64. Tycho Nestoris,

      I meant more in the sense that she was burning all of KL to make sure Cersei would have no way to escape ! As for GW, i think he’s obviously grieving and is very angry but i don’t think he means any ill intention towards Jon yet, sure he was annoyed that he was trying to stop the massacre but i don’t think he was his main priority at that moment, just like Dany .

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    65. Tycho Nestoris:
      Jack Nabble,

      I disagree. Daenerys seemed very unconcerned with Cersei in the last episode.

      The idea of Daenerys digging through rubble looking for a Cersei rather than finding Jon is laughable. Daenerys knows Jon is her biggest threat. Daenerys should have already torched him. There’s even less reason to delay now.

      GW should have locked Jon up or killed him, along with any other Northerners, as soon as the battle ended.

      Tbf Jon wasn’t present in Dragonstone Throne Room, so while Grey Worm understood Dany wanted full Fire + Blood after the Bells sounded unlike Tyrion, Jon just turned up with the Northern Army, got told that Bells were a signal to surrender by Tyrion then was in wtf mode when crap went down, he was still fighting Lannister soldiers afterwards and the Northern (and Vale?) Army followed the Unsullied cue in the sacking so while there is a lack of enthusiasm it doesen’t count as treason

      Order of withdrawal comes at a time to not get caught by collapsing buildings

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    66. Raenarys,

      No, it wasn’t, i just rewatched the scene yesterday with young Cersei ! The witch only said she is going to lose all her children .

        Quote  Reply

    67. Jack Nabble,

      Daenerys very easily could have burned Cersei to prevent escape. Daenerys’ method of preventing Cersei’s escape was curious.

      My point is why not include “Jon not escaping” into the city burning mission? Two birds one stone.

      Daenerys has/had to know Jon is the bigger threat.

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    68. AlvWaynwood,

      I don’t think it’s especially nitpicky. It just goes to show how this show has degraded to the point of D&D simply making things up as they go along. A lot of disrespect for the viewers, HBO, GRRM and the entire genre of Adult Fantasy has been shown over the past two seasons. GoT has been giving us bread and circuses (and little else), for awhile now.

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    69. I’m not exactly sure how Tyrion would be allowed to walk around freely. I would think Dany would imprison him after finding out he let Jaime free.

      Also, I’m wondering if prison may be a busy place. Since there have been so many callbacks to season 1, will Dany imprison Jon? (Just like what happened to Ned). Ned told the truth about Joffrey just like Jon told the truth about himself to his family. Will Dany just allow Jon to walk free for much longer?

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    70. Does it annoy anyone else that the final cast list for The Bells on IMDb has seemingly every actor listed as ‘Lannister Soldier’ or ‘King’s Landing Citizen’ when the actor’s resumes say something completely different? Maybe it’s just the perfectionist in me.

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    71. Jack Nabble:
      Mr Derp,

      Wow, you sure told me there/s . You know you don’t receive some points or money for being an internet lawyer right, i’m sure the guy could defend himself if he truly wants !

      I’m not defending him, I’m defending this site. It’s supposed to be a place where fans of the show can come on here and discuss the show intelligently, calmly, and respectfully without resorting to insults. You would agree with that, yes?

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    72. So essentially, Daenerys is Frodo if he didn’t have a Smeagol to swoop in at the end and unintentionally destroy the ring..
      She looks gorgeous though, apocalypse Dany!

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    73. Apollo,

      My tinfoil: Bran wargs into Drogon and makes him kill the Unsullied and Dothraki. They have to get rid of the soldiers without a blood bath and probably won’t just let them return to Essos. Then, Bran makes Drogon burn or eat Dany. To make it even worse, they reveal she’s pregnant before killing her. Maybe even Jon finds out.

      Alternatively, they could let Dany live until she gives birth and then kill her and give the child (maybe little Ned) to Sansa to adopt and raise as a Stark.

      I see them destroying House Targaryen root and stem, just as Dany said she would do to Cersei.

      Ryan,

      What they say is garbage. They once said quite clearly that Dany isn’t mad.

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    74. Tron79,

      I think this shot is at the beggining of the episode, right after the massacre has ended, Tyrion will probably be captured the next scene .

      SunDancer Do you have any evidence of them saying that ?

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    75. Zen-Face:
      AlvWaynwood,

      I don’t think it’s especially nitpicky. It just goes to show how this show has degraded to the point of D&D simply making things up as they go along. A lot of disrespect for the viewers, HBO, GRRM and the entire genre of Adult Fantasy has been shown over the past two seasons. GoT has been giving us bread and circuses (and little else), for awhile now.

      Entitlement runs deep in this one.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Maybe this photo doesn’t even make it on the screen and it’s hype. Symbolic of dead Dany, all her dead unsullied and all her dead dothraki…. I’m pretty happy with the writing and to those saying Dany went mad in 2 episodes, as a few others have pointed out… she has always said she would take the throne with “Fire and Blood”, and she did.

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    77. They stated bittersweet. I am quite curious how that happens at this point. Because as of now all I am seeing is a nihilistic dystopia. Total and complete misery with little hope for the future for these characters, with all of them being in a far worse emotional place than when the story began.

      Even if something miraculous happens it’s difficult to imagine there being much ‘sweet’ in this equation with only 80 minutes of story left to tell. There has to be some level of hope here though, otherwise what was the point of these 70+ hours and 5000+ pages if the theme of the story turns out to just be nihilistic dystopia?

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    78. Jack Nabble,

      I know, but generally for shows and movies once it has premiered IMDb will add the full cast. Which I’m guessing they get from the studios. For example John Wick 3’s full cast was added last week despite the movie not premiering until Friday. For Game of Thrones it’s more difficult because it’s one of the few HBO shows that only list the actors and not the roles, so unless their name is mentioned in the show or the actor has the role listed on their CV it’s impossible to know the specific role they were cast in and it becomes a guessing game (which is why if you look at some older episodes the roles will be blank because the info isn’t available anywhere).

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    79. Ghost’s Lunch,

      he was still fighting Lannister soldiers afterwards and the Northern (and Vale?) Army followed the Unsullied cue in the sacking so while there is a lack of enthusiasm it doesn’t count as treason

      Oh I get that it wasn’t treason. But Daenerys still has to know Jon is THE threat after torching the city and that he can’t be allowed to live.

      It was a little vague, but I understood that Daenerys and GW planned to sack the city. If so, they should have also planned to remove Jon once the sacking began. Daenerys and GW have to know that Jon wouldn’t stand kneel for that and needed to be killed, right? Am I crazy? Daenerys’ only real threat once the bells ring is Jon.

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    80. So…..is Bronn coming into play this episode? It not, there was ZERO point to have him back this season.

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    81. I hope they bring some aspect of mysticism back to the story that has been missing since episode 3 and the Night King defeat. It will be very disappointing if the show ends without any discussion about beyond the Wall and the White Walkers. I’m hoping for some twist where the White Walkers are not truly gone but will eventually return like they always do. They were defeated before and returned so why not again?

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    82. Tron79:
      I’m not exactly sure how Tyrion would be allowed to walk around freely. I would think Dany would imprison him after finding out he let Jaime free.

      Also, I’m wondering if prison may be a busy place. Since there have been so many callbacks to season 1, will Dany imprison Jon?(Just like what happened to Ned).Ned told the truth about Joffrey just like Jon told the truth about himself to his family.Will Dany just allow Jon to walk free for much longer?

      In the minuscule teaser, we see Jon&Davos walking around in one clip and Tyrion in another. I would not be surprised if we get a sequence of unsullied rounding all of them up shortly after we see them walking around freely.

      I also have a feeling we’ll get a reprise of Ned’s beheading (Drogon style), only upon the steps will be Jon, Tyrion, and Davos. Arya is there, just like before, only this time she’s not a little girl anymore and there is no Night’s Watch friend to drag her away. She’ll do what she couldn’t the last time. *fingers crossed*

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    83. wandering gal,

      He will appear but i’m not sure he’s going to do anything important, he will get his castle and maybe a seat on the new Small Council of whatever king or queen that may be .

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    84. As bleak as every s/l seems right now, my odds on “Finding out the punchline to the honeycomb and jackass joke” are looking pretty sad!

        Quote  Reply

    85. Jack Nabble,

      It’s near the beginning of a YouTube video from IdeasofIceandFire this week. D&D said she’s not insane and not like her father, but instead is one of the good Targaryens (though ruthless like all good Targaryens).

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    86. I am sure someone (or maybe many) has already pointed it out, but the Unsullied look far from being depleted – actually it seems like they have wondrously multiplied.
      Weren’ t they supposed to be 8,000 to begin with?

      And: I guess if I am the only person that thinks of Scar and the hyenas looking at this photo. Yes, I really am referencing the Lion King.

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    87. Jack Nabble,

      I don’t! I want to see if he’s immune to dragon fire.

      I think Daenerys should kill Jon for political reasons.

      ETA: I just gave up, that Cersei character was never on time with payments.

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    88. Sundancer,

      That guy is known to take things out of context and he has hated the show since forever, so i’m going to need a less biased example, sorry ! Otherwise you might as well give me quotes from The Dragon Demands as well .

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    89. Tycho Nestoris,

      Well he was already shown to be burned way back in season 1, so if he’s not immune to normal fire why would he be to dragon fire ? Jon is not a full blood Targ like Dany is so no, i don’t think he is immune to it .

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    90. Very few retreated. Grey Worm pulled the rope to close the bridge and the vast majority of his troops were trapped on the outer side of the trenches.

      At the time I gasped in shock at him abandoning all his troops like that. A few moments later we see the AOTD waiting on the other side- so all of those Unsullied perished, with the exception of a few who retreated with GW- but nowhere near as many as we are seeing in that shot.

      King in the North East: Well, we did see some Unsullied retreat, but then they disappeared from the episode.

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    91. Tycho Nestoris:
      Jack Nabble,

      Daenerys very easily could have burned Cersei to prevent escape. Daenerys’ method of preventing Cersei’s escape was curious.

      My point is why not include “Jon not escaping” into the city burning mission? Two birds one stone.

      Daenerys has/had to know Jon is the bigger threat.

      That only works if you assume she’d kill someone she (likely) still loves.

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    92. Tycho Nestoris:
      Jack Nabble,

      I don’t! I want to see if he’s immune to dragon fire.

      I think Daenerys should kill Jon for political reasons.

      He’s not immune to fire. He burned his hand saving Jeor from the wights that were trying to kill him in Castle Black. In the books, the burned hand practically becomes its own character Jon broods over it so much.

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    93. Luka Nieto,

      I did hear that in ep4 (and thought “yay!”,how naive I was…) but still, there seem to be more than six thousand just on the part of the photo we are able to see.
      Doesn’t matter though, the picture is great and at this point I don’t really care about discrepancies.

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    94. This is how I see the Unsullied numbers situation. In episode one, in one of early shots as they were marching towards Winterfell, there was a panning long shot to the horizon and there were 3 or 4 wide columns of Unsullied that stretched over the hill. Visually it looked like an extraordinary number of Unsullied. So, I figure Dany is starting out with a huge number so that even half of that (that survived the Long Night) would make the numbers in the image above make sense. Plus, why should we see all of them at one time? At WF or KL. Some are guarding other locations around KL, sleeping, hunting for food, etc. No matter, she had enough, with Drogon and other soldiers, to take KL.

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    95. While people argue over whether or not Jaime should have died with Cersei, they miss quite an ironic twist of fate with Jaime’s character and arc. He is present, back in the Red Keep, 20+ years later when the daughter of the man he killed to protect innocents, finishes the job her father wanted to start and this time there is nothing he can do about it. Some will say this renders Jaime an utterly pointless character whose arc meant nothing, but I think it’s just the opposite of that. I think it’s quite symbolic of human existence. Perhaps atrocities in life are sometimes just delayed but never prevented.

      However, this is also why I think Jon will kill Dany. They intentionally mirrored Jon and Jaime from almost the very beginning with that handshake scene in 102. That was a show invention not from the books and one that NCW said in the commentary for that episode the showrunners wanted to do. Both wound up Lord Commanders of their respective groups, both wound up taking lifetime vows and giving up a right to a wife and family, both broke those vows and had regrets about taking them. They’re quite similar, intentionally so I think, and this is why I believe Jon will do to Dany what Jaime did to her father. And probably like Jaime, Jon will have a stigma attached to him for it, even if not deserved.

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    96. The point is, if someone kills their queen will the Unsullied and Dothraki shrug it off or will they rampage through what remains of Kings Landing and the northern army. That’s without considering what Drogon might do. There isn’t another battle planned. A way out but its a bit Deus ex Machina: Bran wargs into Drogon (as to the 3eyed raven saying he will fly) and kills Danaerys, so her troops cannot blame the people of Westerosa and go home to Essos. Since Jon doesn’t want to be king, Drogon/Bran takes him to the far north where he remains. The remaining great lords of Westeros: Gendry Baratheon, Sansa Stark, Samwell Tarly, Yara Greyjoy, Robyn Arryn and the unnamed Prince of Dorne decide from now one there will be an elective monarchy where a king is elected for life (like the lord commander of the night watch), and a council of Lords to advise him. They select as the first one Tyrion Lannister…

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    97. Apollo:
      Very few retreated. Grey Worm pulled the rope to close the bridge and the vast majority of his troops were trapped on the outer side of the trenches.

      At the time I gasped in shock at him abandoning all his troops like that. A few moments later we see the AOTD waiting on the other side- so all of those Unsullied perished, with the exception of a few who retreated with GW- but nowhere near as many as we are seeing in that shot.

      No, you clearly see hundreds of Unsullied retreat behind the trench, just before it’s lit.

      That’s still not anywhere near the numbers we see in the picture here, but definitely more than just a few.

      What’s more problematic is that they are never seen again, except for the 20ish Unsullied that protect Mel.

      Best I can do apart from that is suggest they were guarding other parts of Winterfell.

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    98. Tycho Nestoris,

      I don’t really think Dany is in any clear mental capacity anymore ! Whatever, we only have 4 days to find out anyway, after that we have nothing to speculate anymore !

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    99. JenStar Runner: “In the minuscule teaser, we see Jon&Davos walking around in one clip and Tyrion in another. I would not be surprised if we get a sequence of unsullied rounding all of them up shortly after we see them walking around freely.

      I also have a feeling we’ll get a reprise of Ned’s beheading (Drogon style), only upon the steps will be Jon, Tyrion, and Davos. Arya is there, just like before, only this time she’s not a little girl anymore and there is no Night’s Watch friend to drag her away. She’ll do what she couldn’t the last time. *fingers crossed*” .
      .

      Arya can’t take out Daenerys, Drogon, and the unsullied/Dothraki forces all by her lonesome

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    100. AlvWaynwood,

      Yeah I am with you too. Not to nit pick but it looks like there are way too many dothraki and probably a few too many unsullied based on how we saw the battle of Winterfell turn out.

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    101. Cryptkeeper: 50

      There’s a lot more than 50 unsullied per row: the number at the bottom of the hill gets harder to count exactly, but just look at how many just to get down there. Given the distance and perspective, I’d say it’s closer to 100 per row, times 50 rows, that’s 5000 unsullied, out of 13000 she “bought” on astapor, counting all the trainees as graduated.

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    102. Jack Nabble,
      JenStar Runner,

      video for ref

      Yes, in the books it’s a major plot point. In the show, Jon does scream but I don’t recall much of an injury from the lantern. Am I misremembering? Is there a difference between fire immunity and fire simply being painful?

      Yes, Jon is only part Targ. He is also part Stark, and we all know that the semi canon sources (Old Nan lol)

      said the book NK may have been Stark

      and that “show” NK was immune to Dragon fire.

      FWIW this was mostly a joke (testing Jon’s fire immunity for science).

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    103. Tycho Nestoris,

      I think the NK was immune due to his special magical abilities, he was also shown to walk through fire back in season 6 along with the other WWs, the WWs are only shown to be immune to dragonglass or valyrian steel while the wights can be killed by both .

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    104. It looks like there is snow covering the city – not just ash.

      I’m looking forward to seeing Daenerys’ throne room vision play out in real time. Who is going to send her to the afterlife with Khal Drogo? Or will she be expecting it and try to prevent it. As The OG EYR told us, the ink is dry. Of course, this means nothing to D&D, so who knows. 🤷🏻‍♀️

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    105. Apologies if this has already been quoted.

      ‘Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head’
      Tyrion to Jorah, ADWD.

      Don’t say you weren’t foretold.

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    106. ramses: Arya can’t take out Daenerys, Drogon, and the unsullied/Dothraki forces all by her lonesome

      I think there is a big chance she will die killing Dany (assuming it goes down this way. I’m not even remotely attached to my theories).

      Or, she kills Dany (Oh hey, look. Someone dropped their bow and their quiver of arrows is right here too) and she slinks away into the shadows (there’s also the face option). Drogon doesn’t freak out b/c his buddy Jon is right there. Jon climbs up on Drogon and threatens but doesn’t kill the Dothraki and Unsullied b/c Jon wouldn’t do such a thing.

      Davos jetpacks to Pike to get Yara to build 1000 new ships Euron-speed to ferry Unsullied and Dothraki back to Essos.

      LOL more sweet for the bitter. This is Emmy-worthy gold right here.

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    107. Jack Nabble,

      I don’t really think Dany is in any clear mental capacity anymore

      Are really supposed to buy that Daenerys thinks she and Jon are fine? When she said, “Let it be fear”, that was as much for Jon as anyone else. IMO there is no plausible explanation for Daenerys trusting Jon. Her mental capacity is wack so she should be especially paranoid of Jon.

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    108. Grrr… late lunch and then couldn’t get on for a while so now I have a ton of comments to read again.

      So, just the two pictures and STILL no shot of Daenerys’ face. I’m still wondering if they’re not showing her face for a reason. She probably looks like she always has but I have an active imagination. 😉

      btw, Bran is still EVIL! 😀

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    109. Jack Nabble:
      Tycho Nestoris,

      I think the NK was immune due to his special magical abilities, he was also shown to walk through fire back in season 6 along with the other WWs, the WWs are only shown to be immune to dragonglass or valyrian steel while the wights can be killed by both .

      The WW were not immune to valyrian steel or dragon glass. Sam killed a WW with dragon glass and Jon/Aegon killed 2 WWs with valyrian steel.

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    110. Raenarys:
      QueenofThrones,

      Well, except for the valonqar part. No one had their hands around her throat, even though that’s what most of us were hoping for.

      Maybe prophecy’s are a bit symbolic. Jaime had his hands (one was gold yes) around her throat, only for comfort. And maybe the life snuck out of her is more symbolic instead of that the volanqar does it himself.

      or maybe tinfoil theory crazy 100: They both survived, but are stuck in an area of maybe 10m3. They will suffer and Jaime ends Cersei’s suffer by the way is mention in the volanqar prohecy. But probably it’s more that the real Volanqar is 1. Not in the show (Fake Aegon) or 2. It’s somebody on the show, but his show version is not so dark to do that. Tyrion is darker in the books so maybe it’s really him.

      Apollo,

      I think it’s more like her father. One moment he was fine and normal. and the next day he was insane. The problem with mental illness like these is that most time it’s there in small doses very small, hints are there but not that you are concern. And then out of a sudden it’s in the open.

      How many times don’t we hear of a school shooter, or somebody else who snapped and we hear: We really didn’t saw this coming, he was such a sweet boy (or girl).

      Because illness like this is not like pooring a glass of water that builds up. It’s like pumping up a balloon and releasing sometimes some air (hints that it’s there) and at one moment the balloon just pops and it’s from 10% to 90/100%

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    111. Jack Nabble: No, it wasn’t, i just rewatched the scene yesterday with young Cersei ! The witch only said she is going to lose all her children .

      Indeed, thanks for the backup :p

        Quote  Reply

    112. Luka Nieto,

      Was that stated? Because D &D literally said the other characters were watching the end of the Doktratki in the after the episode for the long night? Now obviously he didnt mean every single one I would think, but to have a big enough mob to lead the charge cutting through the streets like butter is an oversight.

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    113. Apollo,

      She got 8 000 trained and 5 000 untrained unsullied in Essos. Say, she lost a few hundred in Mereen and a few hundred taking Casterly Rock, and arrived at Winterfell with 10 000. Gray Worm says then that half is gone, and the Dothraki say the same. And virtually none of the unsullied or Dothraki were killed during the sack of KL. So she would have about 5 000 unsullied and quite a few thousand Dothraki.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Tycho Nestoris:
      Jack Nabble,
      JenStar Runner,

      video for ref

      Yes, in the books it’s a major plot point. In the show, Jon does scream but I don’t recall much of an injury from the lantern. Am I misremembering? Is there a difference between fire immunity and fire simply being painful?

      Yes, Jon is only part Targ. He is also part Stark, and we all know that the semi canon sources (Old Nan lol)

      and that “show” NK was immune to Dragon fire.

      FWIW this was mostly a joke (testing Jon’s fire immunity for science).

      I cannot be bothered to go look up the next Jon scene post-wight killing, but my muddy memory suggests that we did get a brief moment of an injured hand. Meh. I dunno. I don’t think he’s fireproof, but I’m happy to be wrong about that too.

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    115. Apollo: Wonder what Sansa’s reaction will be when she’s sees the result of her Littlefingering ways. Still, it’ll likely win her the throne which beforehand I’d have been happy with. Not at the cost of thousands of innocent lives though.

      Are you somehow suggesting that Sansa is responsible for Daenerys’ actions? Because that is all types of wrong. You could make the argument that if Daenerys kills Jon, Sansa in a way contributed to his death but to lay the blame on her for what Daenerys chose to do in Kingslanding? Nope. What drove Daenerys to the edge was Missandei’s death but the idea of fire and blood and doing away with those who will not bend to her will has always been with her, Sansa has nothing to do with that.

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    116. Tobias Umber,

      Yeah, perhaps Dnerys will say it’s all Sansa’s fault once again lmao.

      Which makes me think that the conflict between Sansa and Dany still has to reach his climax. Now that Sansa is #1 on her list, she’ll maybe even think that Jon and her have been working together all along.

      Someone has to remove Dnerys now. Before 8.05 I didn’t like the idea of Jon killing his former lover, but now it’s kind of his duty to do it. I’d like a public execution.

        Quote  Reply

    117. onefromaway,

      We shouldn’t necessarily see all of the Unsullied at once at WF, but hunting and sleeping as the AOTD was set to engulf the place —— errrr no.

      The Unsullied started at 8000. There were losses in Meereen and Casterly Rock. A reasonable guess of 6000-6500 at WF and losses of at least half that in the battle there would result in something like 2500-3000 Unsullied at KL. That would actually be a high number and not accounting for losses at KL itself. From a more realistic POV, there are casualties and then there is death. i.e. how many were killed at WF and how many of the wounded were actually fit for duty at KL? Remember – Dany is rushing the army south, with no recovery time. Some may find this a case splitting hairs, but some of us appreciate attention to detail in matters such as this. Just how much suspension of disbelief does a given show ask of its viewer? Tolkien was fastidious in adhering to the plausibility of events occurring within the context of his ‘world’. (Jackson far less so.) GRRM is no less detailed in his approach than Tolkien. In short: even in worlds that are populated by dragons, wights and magic rings, a ‘reality’ must be observed and adhered to. Anything else is just pulling rabbits out a hat.

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    118. TheLannistersWin,

      Never mind I just saw you called it out as obvious hyperbole. I honestly cant tell because they always seem disinterested and look away from the camera in every after the episode, but that was a strange hyperbole, and certainly only a handful of stragglers returned from the charge and it was implied that at least a very large majority of their force was in that charge.

      But like someone else said, it doesnt matter at all anymore and I dont feel like there is a sneak battle so the armies wont even play a large enough role at this point to be concerned.

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    119. Were Varys and his little bird trying to poison Dany ……… or her dragon? Might this still happen? They had to show us that for a reason, didn’t they?

        Quote  Reply

    120. QueenofThrones,

      Jack Nabble,

      C: Will the king and I have children?

      M: The king will have twenty children. And you will have three.

      C: That doesn’t make sense.

      M: Gold will be their crowns. Cold their shrouds.

      Nothing about how she will die.

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    121. All I want to know is, what the fuck was in Dany’s Starbucks that made he lose her appetite and go batshit crazy?! I mean it is quite possible it was the Starbucks coffee itself. That shit is so bitter and gross.

        Quote  Reply

    122. TheLannistersWin,

      Just because they look away from the camera doesn’t mean they are disinterested, some people, me included, are not comfortable in front of a camera or even in public, they are writers and so they are more used being behind the scenes .

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    123. Dark Sister,

      To destroy all evil, the Iron throne must be thrown into the place from where he was made, thrown into the Volcano in old Valyria. We give you this task Aegon Targaryen of Winterfell. If you will not succeed, no one will.

      Tron79,

      Imprisoned? 2 problems here:
      1. Where?
      2. Imprisoned meant alive instead of burned alive, so not going to happen with Dany. If I were Tyrion I would run as fast as I can and hopefully he fly faster than drogon.

        Quote  Reply

    124. JenStar Runner: Maybe. The word betrayal implies a measure of intent to harm or some kind of treachery for the person who perceives she is being betrayed. I don’t believe that Tyrion ever had any intention of harming or outwardly undermining Dany. I think everything he does is for the larger common good, which includes Dany. I don’t think he was plotting all along to save Cersei in a way that prioritized Cersei over his duties to Dany.

      Tyrion rationalizes as “all for the common good” but that’s not his motivation. His reason is (at first) to protect Jaime (s7) and (later) to protect Cersei’s child by Jaime (late s7/s8).

      For example, let’s say that Tyrion’s plan works, Dany does not burn KL or the Red keep, but rather invades them on foot, freeing Cersei and Jaime to live another day as they are able to escape via the catacombs.

      Tyrion HAS TO KNOW that escape by Cersei will do nothing but bring more suffering to the people as Dany will not rest until Cersei and her child are dead. Yet he facilitates Jaime helping her escape.

      If he only cared about Jaime, he could free him without Cersei rescue as an option. Send him north with Davos and make him stay there. Tyrion doesn’t even try this because it’s not what he wants – Tyrion ultimately is loyal to House Lannister, and wants to save all of its members, including Cersei.

      This was 100%, absolutely a betrayal. He has intentionally undermined her rule by attempting to keep Cersei and her child alive. This will help no one but Jaime and Cersei. We just don’t want to believe it because “Tyrion means well” and because he keeps saying he’s loyal.

      I think he probably thought he could have it both ways. If Cersei could have found it within herself to be more reasonable, he might have succeeded.

      Tyrion knows his sister well enough to know this is not possible. He was unwilling to sacrifice 1 objectively evil person for the greater good of thousands, because she was his sister, and she carried a Lannister in her belly. It’s a fatal flaw.

        Quote  Reply

    125. Sundancer,

      They also said Jon snow was really dead at the end of season 5. So maybe they lie for a reason?

      orange,

      My feeling is that 40 a 50 minutes of the episodes is about Dany. I mean a story like that can be a season long or more like a movie around 40 minutes of story before the villain dies. So I think she will die halfway through, I mean we going to see who Dany is, what her plan is now, we see the Starks rising against her and it will end after that in a resolution.

      I think the last 30/40 minutes is about the sweet part, Sam maybe becoming warden of the reach. Finding out what the starks going to do. The rebuilding of Westeros.

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    126. King in the North East:
      QueenofThrones,
      Jack Nabble,
      C: Will the king and I have children?

      M: The king will have twenty children. And you will have three.

      C: That doesn’t make sense.

      M: Gold will be their crowns. Cold their shrouds.

      Nothing about how she will die.

      C: But I will be queen?

      M: Queen you shall be… for a time. Then comes another… younger and more beautiful… to cast you down and take all you hold dear.

      That’s how she will die, show version. Prophecy foretold Queen Cersei being “cast down” by Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Zen-Face,

      No, I agree, not at WF awaiting the AOTD. The sentence about sleeping and hunting referred to KL, as in the image at the top of this article/thread. The fight is over, the reality is an army has to rest and eat. Maybe they will find some of those rabbits you are talking about!

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    128. Tron79,

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Dnerys imprisons Jon – or put him in shackles. She only trusts GW now it seems, and he gave Jon a nasty eye when he called his men to fall back.

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    129. Danny,

      No, I’m not saying Sansa is responsible for Dany’s actions- so please do not put words in my mouth.

      The point I made is that Sansa did not “let slip” to Tyrion. She planned to tell him about Jon, and she knew it would have repercussions.

      She’s been tutored by LF for years, has been told to think about every possibility and how it could unfold.

      She knew the lengths her father went to keep that secret. She knew the impact it had on her mother and family. She knew that the 7Ks would bleed if the truth came out- because that’s precisely why her father kept the secret. So there is no way she didn’t understand that there would be consequences, and whilst nobody could’ve expected what actually happened-Sansa was cognisant of what Targaryens can do.

      To think otherwise would make Sansa out to be stupid. She is not. To quote Arya: “she’s the smartest person I know”.

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    130. Apollo: Care to help a man with where Jon’s army were camped on the eve of the battle? Cos it can’t surely be outside the city, with all those scorpions and the Iron Fleet in Blackwater bay.. 😋

      They camped to the North of the city. You could see the Northern walls.

      Ryan,

      Half of those survived, there was no other half hidden somewhere. We saw some of the survivors retreat. I agree with you we should’ve seen more.

      TheLannistersWin,

      Half survived, explicitly.

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    131. Sundancer,

      Strange that they didn’t want to spoiler the end of the show that soon in the series run, you would think they would have given that away right away.

      Danny,

      We finally learn that the only stark in the show not possessing some magical ability has one herself. Sansa stark, the puppet master, pulling everyone strings from far away.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Apollo,

      There’s a big difference in the consequences of disclosing that secret now and 20 years ago.
      It’s only when she realized how afraid Tyrion was of Dænerys that Sansa told him the truth. Her own advisor feared her! What was she supposed to believe, especially when Jon isn’t saying anything more than “she’ll be a good queen” in a not particularly convincing way? Of course she couldn’t just stand by and watch.

      So yes, Sansa would rather tell Jon’s secret (and risk Jon hating her) than seeing another tyrant kill him.
      And then there’s also the very huge factor of Northern Independence which motivate her too. Sansa has every reason in the world to want to see Dany gone. Why wouldn’t she act?

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    133. Clob: So,just the two pictures and STILL no shot of Daenerys’ face.I’m still wondering if they’re not showing her face for a reason.She probably looks like she always has but I have an active imagination.😉

      lol what are you expecting?
      https://imgur.com/j5uteKu

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    134. Cryptkeeper: Truth be told, Joffrey had Ned Stark executed in front of a large crowd in an open part of the city way back in season one. Might or might not be the same spot, but let’s not pretend Kings Landing has no open spaces for a city of a million people.

      The beheading of Ned was in front of the Great Sept of Baelor, which has been destroyed by wildfire. Anyway, when Cercei Looks down from the balcony, there is a lot of open space around the Red Keep. But Winterfell must be a damn huge Castle, when the hundreds of unsullied were able to hide effectively from cameras during the war. Or Maybe they were all fighting on the walls. Who knows… in the End it doesn’t matter. One more to go!

      Last words from Davos:
      This is Jon Snow, King of Westeros.

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    135. I Will love to see Jon killing Drogon rather than Daenerys. And diying as a result.

      Just to see Sansa arriving with a big army.

      Because she stands for absolute independence of the Seven kingdoms from the Iron Throne.

      And Dorne is delighted with that. And so the rest. Event the fuc**** krakens left

      And the wheel is broken.

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    136. Apollo: She knew the lengths her father went to keep that secret. She knew the impact it had on her mother and family. She knew that the 7Ks would bleed if the truth came out- because that’s precisely why her father kept the secret. So there is no way she didn’t understand that there would be consequences, and whilst nobody could’ve expected what actually happened-Sansa was cognisant of what Targaryens can do.

      Well said, I love Sansa but I can’t help but see LF parallels and I think we’re meant to. Specifically to LF making Lysa write the poison letter to Cat. In both cases the consequence (intentional, I think, in both cases) was to increase the likelihood of a war occurring between two major factions. Chaos is a ladder.

      The main distinction I see is that Sansa used the truth as her wedge, whereas Littlefinger used a lie. But, LF is not above using the truth, nor is Sansa, I think, above using a lie if she feels it’s necessary. She did lie to Jon about Littlefinger/the Vale knights in S6.

        Quote  Reply

    137. QueenofThrones,

      If it ends with anyone (even a good person like Jon) ruling as a king/queen on the throne I feel the message is just about as nihilistic as a night king wins end would be.

      Varys thought Jon would make a good king precisely because he is so thoroughly dis-interested in power. This way, it could be interpreted as sane and wise people having to take responsibility as only to prevent the psychopaths from taking over. How about Arya and Gendry on The Throne? 😉

        Quote  Reply

    138. Phario Forel,

      Very interesting idea that I could actually see happening but I don’t think they will have Bran warg into Drogon.

        Quote  Reply

    139. For everyone complaining about the number of unsullied and Dothraki, I just plugged my computer up to the tv for the biggest view possible for counting.
      This might not be exact because of the hazy condition, but I counted 45 deep by 32 wide. That adds up to 1440 unsullied, which doesn’t account for the rows not all going up the steps to Dany. Seems reasonable.
      The Dothraki aren’t in orderly rows and are also horsed, so this is just a guess, but there might be 700. If this seems unrealistic still, just go back to season 3 and look at the unsullied in the plaza of pride or whatever it was called. There were at least 10 times as many.

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    140. onefromaway,

      Which is, of course why the unsullied are in full formation in this shot at KL. Sorry, but having retired from a military career after 22 years, I can tell you that in a formation as seen in this photo, the full force would almost certainly be present, with absentees being a negligible number. Actually, according to your reasoning the total force would be greater than that shown. As for rabbits and hats, jetpacks and plotholes big enough for Drogon to fly through – I’ll leave that to D&D. I prefer chickens – and every one in this room at that.

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    141. You Do Know Something:
      QueenofThrones,

      Varys thought Jon would make a good king precisely because he is so thoroughly dis-interested in power. This way, it could be interpreted as sane and wise people having to take responsibility as only to prevent the psychopaths from taking over. How about Arya and Gendry on The Throne? 😉

      Dany has been a fair and just queen in the past, and could have been in Westeros too. Given enough time the even Jon could be corrupted, or he could be betrayed and undermined by those who DO want power. And even if Jon lives a long and glorious reign who comes next? It’s a flip of the coin (note I don’t mean just for Targs)

      The system is fundamentally flawed and must be destroyed.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Nkforever,

      Yeah, because if people are nitpicking Dany’s forces now they will definitely be delighted when Sansa pulls an entire army out of her behind in just a few weeks time and just after they lost a ton of the North forces .

        Quote  Reply

    143. If Jon and Dany are not together at the end of the series, there’s nothing sweet about this story. It’s their story! It was to much bitter last episode so I expect many sweets to compensate.
      Oh, and who else can’t wait for the first Dany close-up ?
      Also, anyone expecting a cold opening ?

        Quote  Reply

    144. Iul,

      If you thought the series was ending with SS Jonerys sailing, you haven’t been paying attention.

      QueenofThrones,

      Learning isn’t becoming. LF used secrets against others in order to get more power, not caring who he hurt in the process.
      On the other hand, not only Sansa doesn’t seek secrets, but she divulged Jon’s in order to keep her family safe from Dany by stripping away some of her power.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Netheb,

      Agreee with most of what you’ve said.

      Except: There’s a big difference in the consequences of disclosing that secret now and 20 years ago.

      The million citizens of Kings Landing would beg to differ.

      Any challenger to the throne results in bloodshed. When you add a Targaryen with two dragons into the mix, the “possible outcomes” become more sinister.

      I understand most of Sansa’s motivations. But my point remains she would’ve known there would be dire consequences.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Jack Nabble:
      Tron79,

      I think this shot is at the beggining of the episode, right after the massacre has ended, Tyrion will probably be captured the next scene .

      My guess is he’ll be saved by Bronn, who wants his goshdarned castle.

        Quote  Reply

    147. Jack Nabble,

      The valley of arryn and the rest of houses united under one goal: independence from the Iron Throne.

      Not so unlikely.

      But i was mostly kidding. Althoug Jon diying while killing the dragón would be really epic, and will complete the tragic hero arc he was developing till this season

        Quote  Reply

    148. Iul:
      If Jon and Dany are not together at the end of the series, there’s nothing sweet about this story. It’s their story!

      It’s a Song of Ice and Fire (Jon and Dany). Songs end, and not always happily.

      We know that Jon cannot deal with sex with Dany being his aunt. He had 2 chances to re-engage with her physically and could not do it. So there can’t be a happy ending for them. If Dany hadn’t burnt the city to ashes, maybe the could have ruled jointly as a platonic couple. But no, I don’t think that Dany was willing to do that unless Jon could love her the way she did him.

      Dany is entirely doomed now. As for Jon? He could die with Dany or at her command, escape into obscurity, or become king. None of these are particularly sweet…

        Quote  Reply

    149. Jack Nabble:
      Tycho Nestoris,

      Well he was already shown to be burned way back in season 1, so if he’s not immune to normal fire why would he be to dragon fire ? Jon is not a full blood Targ like Dany is so no, i don’t think he is immune to it .

      Maybe that will be the last Twist. He was awoken from Death by Mellisandre with her fire god power. That he burned himself while trying to take the Sword out of the fire could turn out to be another call back to season 1. Only this time, he does not burn, he will be the unburnt.

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    150. Zen-Face,

      Yawn, the jetpack joke hasn’t been funny in forever, because it never made any sense to begin with. When in the first episode we literally see Cersei and Jaime in KL in one scene and then the next scene they already arrived in WF it’s clearly something called passing of time but in this day and age with audiences being so spoon fed, they clearly had to write it on the screen 3 weeks later or something like that in every episode . The only time the “jetpacks” bothered me was in the wight hunt episode other than that i had no problem with it .

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    151. Netheb: she divulged Jon’s in order to keep her family safe from Dany by stripping away some of her power.

      There’s no reason at all for her to believe that sowing chaos in this way would help protect Jon. Indeed, it would be reasonable to expect the opposite – more discord between Dany and Jon = more likelihood Jon gets killed.

      Would it help protect “her family” beyond Jon? Maybe? If Jon is able to win in a war to dethrone Daenerys that is triggered by the chaos Sansa sows, and accepts rule of the 7k, then the North is in a more secure position. Conveniently, Sansa’s own power is secured as well, as Jon will be in King’s Landing, leaving rule of the north to her alone…

      I can’t see this as purely altruistic. It’s a power move in the vein of LF and cleverly played. Understandable for sure, given Sansa’s background. But as Apollo pointed out, she could have foreseen that what she was doing would increase the likelihood of all-out war, as opposed to continuing an uneasy alliance.

      Obviously none of this justifies what Daenerys did so no need to play that card.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Zen-Face,

      Thank you for your service! I can appreciate that certain military or logistical “fudging” or “suspended disbelief” situations would be far more noticeable to you. I hope in the next 2 books, George offers a more complete explanation of his version of how events play out.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Is it safe to say that voice Varys heard when they threw his twig and berries in the fire was a female saying “Dracarys”?

        Quote  Reply

    154. z4luvr:
      Is it safe to say that voice Varys heard when they threw his twig and berries in the fire was a female saying “Dracarys”?

      Ohhh, that is an interesting idea! Thanks!

        Quote  Reply

    155. Daveym4sk:
      Apologies if this has already been quoted.

      ‘Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head’
      Tyrion to Jorah, ADWD.

      Don’t say you weren’t foretold.

      Well, MMD was right, anyway. Dany will have no more children.

      Because the only men remaining with her have no means of helping her with that.

        Quote  Reply

    156. Apollo: I don’t ever recall seeing that on any of the aerial shots. Did all those unsullied clear the ruined remnants of the Red Keep in the space of an afternoon?

      Well, we did see a large open area last week where Drogon torched a large number of people. While I agree with your general feeling -+ it was there last week.

      The pics of KL are inconsistent over the course of the show. By a lot. We just need to overlook it. TIA.

        Quote  Reply

    157. Apollo,

      Oh, so you meant that it’s because Dany and her advisors are officially aware of RLJ that she burned KL? Sorry lol.
      I’d agree with you, but what does RLJ have to do with the citizens of KL who haven’t even heard about Jon Snow?

      Remember that Dany had to be talked down from destroying the red keep already in s7. Yes she was angry at what she saw as a betrayal from Jon, but she’s been looking for excuses to go full on fire&blood.
      She already knew that Westeros would never love her and that she’d have to rule through fear. She killed thousands of townspeople to punish them for not reacting with joy upon her arrival.

        Quote  Reply

    158. flintstonewielder,

      When a person expects a certain level of competence and respect it can be because they hold those qualities as values to which they themselves try to uphold. It’s not always “entitlement.” A boss expecting quality work, a parent expecting obedience, a parishioner expecting sound doctrine, a consumer expecting their new sweater will not start to unravel at the seams. If you have invested time and money into someone or something and you know it can, and should, deliver but it doesn’t, disappointment will ensue, trust it.

      Not saying that I have the same exact feelings in the post I am defending, maybe I do to some degree but that’s not the point. I reserve the right to explain the place they are coming from.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Diana:
      Tobias Umber,

      In the vision in the HotU the throne and floor are covered with snow. The directors have said so, even Emilia confirmed that detail. The actual throne, now, is covered with ashes…I’m not sure how the show writers would explain that?

      It’s only a vision. That’s how you explain it. In reality, it’s ashes.

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    160. Does anybody think we may not get a title sequence for the last episode?

      The title sequence always tells us the actors in that episode. I’m just thinking for the likes of Tormund, Brienne, Bronn and maybe even Gendry. It would just give away which characters we will see again and which ones we won’t. I know I would be waiting for certain characters to appear or sulking because we already saw their last scene. It could also help work out the plot.

      For example, seeing Carice’s name meant that I knew straight away that Melisandre would be in episode 3 so it wasn’t a surprise when she appeared.

        Quote  Reply

    161. Tycho Nestoris,

      lol! We got ourselves a mini Qyburn here. I would not have a problem with that, as long as Jon shows up Dany and doesn’t burn. I long for one more triumph for Jonny Egg-on.

        Quote  Reply

    162. Iul,

      Please no, them together is much more bitter. Having Jon being the mental punching bag of Dany. That relationship is abusive, and Dany is the abuser and Jon the Victim. Jon dare not to tell Dany anything instead of: Yes my queen.

      Sansa, Arya, Sam and Bran were right about her. And Varys also about their relationship: She will bend him to her will.

      I’m glad that abusive relationship is over, nobody deserves that.

      QueenofThrones,

      Perfectly put. Jon will never engage in an incestuous relationship, that’s not him. And as Gandalf stated, there can only be one ruler of the seven Kingdoms, and she does not share power.
      Or something like that 😛

        Quote  Reply

    163. Sundancer,

      Could Varys have already had her poisoned then? With something that makes one cray-cray? That’s the only way to explain it. Eh, what’s more likely is they’re just lying/misdirection.

        Quote  Reply

    164. Ghostgirl,

      The episode when the Hound returned was a cold open and I think it was for that very reason – to keep the Hound’s return a surprise and not show Rory McCann’s name until after we saw him.

        Quote  Reply

    165. AAuteur,

      Oh honey, I feel ya! Just don’t let GOT end with a quick cut to black while the surviving principle characters chow down on a basket of fries and frosty chocolate milkshakes! If they even come close to that, I will bash the flatscreen!

        Quote  Reply

    166. Iul: If Jon and Dany are not together at the end of the series, there’s nothing sweet about this story.

      It is not their story. “He is the Song of Ice and Fire.” He is Jon Snow — the true-born son of Rhaegar Targsryen and Lyanna Stark.

      ASoIaF does not refer to Jon and Daenerys. You are mistaken as to the meaning of the title of the book series.

      And yes, you are going to be disappointed at EP 6. Daenerys is certainly going to die. She killed thousands of innocents so that she would be assassinated and so that fans would accept it.

      The only question is who kills her, if Jon survives, and who ends up on the Throne.

      We already know Daenerys is going to die. That was Ep5 “The Bells”.

      Obvious candidates to kill Dany in Sunday night are Jon, Arya, Tyrion.

      Darkhorse assassin’s are Ser Davos, Gendry (both of whom should be murderously angry at Dany for burning the city they grew up in) and Bronn — who also grew up there and who needs Tyrion alive and in power to collect on his debt. Yes, there are others, too.

      Please your bets. That girl is dead. Hell, we already know WHY. She is such a criminal that the number of people with the motive to kill her now numbers in the Hundreds of Thousands.

      There is no “Myssa” scene with the great unwashed next episode. The only person on Planetos who now likes Daenerys is Grey Worm. That’s it. The list is over. A list of ONE.

      The only question is who?

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    167. Jack Nabble,

      Thank you, or the letters that Sansa send in 1×08. One minute she write it, next scene it arrives in the north and with cat and later we go back to KL just after the release of letters so we even got back in time, nobody was whinging back then about it.

      Sister Kisser,

      This make me chuckle XD

      —-

      About the house of the Undying scene. I think it is more like Snow is going to sit on the Iron Throne after KL has burned down.

      After that Dany walk north, I’m wondering what the meaning of that is. They could show Essos with her and Drogo, but it was North of the wall. Will she survive and put north of the wall.

      (Night Queen ending?)

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    168. Luka Nieto: Every army lost about half of their men in The Long Night. They should’ve done a better job at showing this in that episode, because it did look like almost everyone was wiped out.

      Didn’t Dany also keep part of her army in Dragonstone too? Otherwise I presume Cersei would have taken it.

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    169. Ghostgirl,

      It work well, too. It is an interesting idea. Since it is the last episode, they may still want to pack in all the surprises they can. I don’t expect to see Tormund again, but it would be a pleasant surprise, imo, if he did show up again.

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    170. ygritte,

      😬He’s one of my favorite characters. So many inappropriate laughs from he and Cersei’s interactions. Their personalities are so different it’s absurd. This one still gets me…

      “Is Lady Falyse still alive?”

      “Alive, yes. Perhaps not entirely … comfortable.”

      P.S. I do appreciate the show answered questions around the Others’ dragon-fire immunity and valyrian steel vulnerability.

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    171. QueenofThrones: Tyrion rationalizes as “all for the common good” but that’s not his motivation.His reason is (at first) to protect Jaime (s7) and (later) to protect Cersei’s child by Jaime (late s7/s8).

      For example, let’s say that Tyrion’s plan works, Dany does not burn KL or the Red keep, but rather invades them on foot, freeing Cersei and Jaime to live another day as they are able to escape via the catacombs.

      Tyrion HAS TO KNOW that escape by Cersei will do nothing but bring more suffering to the people as Dany will not rest until Cersei and her child are dead.Yet he facilitates Jaime helping her escape.

      If he only cared about Jaime, he could free him without Cersei rescue as an option.Send him north with Davos and make him stay there.Tyrion doesn’t even try this because it’s not what he wants – Tyrion ultimately is loyal to House Lannister, and wants to save all of its members, including Cersei.

      This was 100%, absolutely a betrayal.He has intentionally undermined her rule by attempting to keep Cersei and her child alive.This will help no one but Jaime and Cersei.We just don’t want to believe it because “Tyrion means well” and because he keeps saying he’s loyal.

      Tyrion knows his sister well enough to know this is not possible.He was unwilling to sacrifice 1 objectively evil person for the greater good of thousands, because she was his sister, and she carried a Lannister in her belly.It’s a fatal flaw.

      We will have to agree to disagree.

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    172. There are more Unsullied here than we saw lined up in Episode 3.

      Absolutely ridiculous.

      What was the point of the devastation of Episode 3 if her armies can respawn like this ?

      The WW were a completely pointless distraction. They didn’t even serve to thin her forces, as they multiplied off screen and she was able to take KL by basically using only Drogon. She didn’t even need her armies, or Rhaegal, or Viserion.

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    173. Jack Nabble,

      I fear your condescension is matched only by your arrogance. No one cares whether you liked it or not. D&D themselves are on record as stating that they were cutting out much of the jetpacking for s8. As for time spacing – you’re joking, right? If I go to bed tonight and the ground is clear and I wake up in the morning and look out my window to see snow on the ground- I can safely assume that it snowed during the night. But what if under the snow lie layers of ice and sleet? Can I know that with no other source of information, either experiential or through a medium of information (web, TV, radio?) Just sticking to TV, no other well made show of the 21 Century has taken the liberties with time spacing that D&D and the directors have in GoT over the past two seasons. As many reviewers have pointed out, S7-8 pretty much consist of one whiplash time jump to another with the jetpacking the least of miscues. Even GoT itself didn’t abuse time jumps like this in s1-6. There is a difference between not insulting the audience intelligence and outright abusing the privilege of assumption. In practice, it’s called story development.
      Be sure to cover those yawns, something a tad more offensive than a fly might make its way in there.

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    174. ygritte:
      Sundancer,

      Could Varys have already had her poisoned then? With something that makes one cray-cray? That’s the only way to explain it. Eh, what’s more likely is they’re just lying/misdirection.

      Wow. The level of denial among some of the fanbase of this show is truly remarkable.

      She and Grey Worm flew into a murderous rage and slaughtered tens of thousands of people. They did it because they were grieving, angry, and unbalanced.

      The ONLY person in the world who likes, trusts, or respects Daenerys now on that planet is Grey Worm. That is it; that is all.

      And because of that, on Sunday night, Daenerys will be dead.

      Cersei at the end had more allies than Daenerys does now.

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    175. Nick20:
      There are more Unsullied here than we saw lined up in Episode 3.

      No, there’s not. If you read the comments section, you will find that people did the math and discovered that there is 1500-3000 UnSullied left.

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    176. Zen-Face,

      Can you sound more condescending and smug please, i don’t think you nailed it that much as you think you did. Also love how you supposedly don’t care about what i think but you did bother to write back a long ass essay that i did not even bother to read it in entirety since it’s pretty much just regurgitated dribble that i’ve seen times and times again to the point that i’m bored by it .

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    177. Zen-Face,

      Time jumping has existed since season 1 and has been present in every season since, not just seasons 7 and 8. In fact, season 8 has probably had the least amount of time jumping than any season.

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    178. K. Elly: Maybe that will be the last Twist. He was awoken from Death by Mellisandre with her fire god power. That he burned himself while trying to take the Sword out of the fire could turn out to be another call back to season 1. Only this time, he does not burn, he will be the unburnt.

      Dany is the only Targaryen known to survive fire. In fact it is known that Targaryens have been killed by fire before. Aegon V, and his son Duncan, both died in the fire at Summerhall, which is mentioned in the show and in more detail in the books.

      Not mentioned in the show is that Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the day of the fire.

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    179. Tyrion’s Cape,

      QueenofThrones,

      QueenofThrones,

      I thought the whole point for Tyrion to free Jaime was so Jaime could convince Cersei to ring the bells and give up so that Daenerys wouldn’t roast the entire city. It wasn’t only because he wanted to save his family and he even said he was willing to give his own life to save a lot of innocent people

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    180. Over/under on the amount of people in this thread who signed the petition for HBO to remake the final season? I put it at 5.

      I’m ready for the show to end, if for no other reason than to escape all of the negativity. It’s everywhere, even in places that have nothing to do with the show.

      My prediction? People are going to hate the finale no matter what.

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    181. Luka Nieto: They should’ve done a better job at showing this in that episode, because it did look like almost everyone was wiped out.

      Maybe show part of the Dothraki swooping in toward the Wights, with the other half lagging a bit behind. Then, as the lights go out as the first fighters are quelled, we see the second half stop then turn around and hustle back to Winterfell. That would have made more sense.

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    182. QueenofThrones: There’s no reason at all for her to believe that sowing chaos in this way would help protect Jon.Indeed, it would be reasonable to expect the opposite – more discord between Dany and Jon = more likelihood Jon gets killed.
      If Jon is able to win in a war to dethrone Daenerys, then conveniently, Sansa’s own power is secured as well, as Jon will be in King’s Landing, leaving rule of the north to her alone…
      […] she could have foreseen that what she was doing would increase the likelihood of all-out war, as opposed to continuing an uneasy alliance.

      First I find the “Sansa sowing chaos” a bit too strong. Dany sowed chaos by burning KL. I’m not sure that can be said of Sansa revealing Jon’s secret to Dany’s Hand.

      Sansa’s point was NOT to have “more discord between Dany and Jon”. She did it to make Dany’s advisors doubt her even more than before and turn to Jon. As I said before, the more people know about Jon, the less likely it is that Dany just kills him in a quiet corner. Basically Sansa tried to make Jon’s legacy a deterrent against Dany: trying to kill the heir would cost her Westeros.
      If no one but Dany and Jon knew, then perhaps nothing would have stopped her from killing Jon to secure her claim, especially after seeing he’s loved from the people. Just in case. The uneasy alliance as you call it wouldn’t have lasted much longer.

      Another thing: It’s in no way certain that Sansa wants Jon on the throne, away in KL, not when she repeated many times in s7 that she “wished Jon were here”. You imply that Sansa is power-hungry enough to want rule the North on her own, but if that was so, why didn’t she accept the Lords’ offer in 7.05? Why would she offer her title to Bran in 7.03?

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    183. SerKnight:
      Tyrion’s Cape,

      QueenofThrones,

      QueenofThrones,

      I thought the whole point for Tyrion to free Jaime was so Jaime could convince Cersei to ring the bells and give up so that Daenerys wouldn’t roast the entire city. It wasn’t only because he wanted to save his family and he even said he was willing to give his own life to save a lot of innocent people

      You are 100% correct and the author of the quote was wrong. Tyrion was not trying to save Cersei. He was trying to save the city he loved. Getting Jaime to persuade her to run was Tyruon’s hope to get Cersei to agree to surrender and ring the bells.

      He did not count upon Daenerys the Mad Queen. Tyrion has now put a monster in power. This will have consequences. We will find out on Sunday what those consequences are.

      Tyrion is near the top of the list of those who now want to kill Daenerys. If you say “yes but how?”

      Well, there is a certain man with a crossbow looking for a castle. Current Queen isn’t going to make good on that; she’s not feeling too benevolent to Tyrion right now.. The next in line after Dany will look very well upon Tyrion though.

      So yes, Tyrion may have a card to play. That card is Bronn.

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    184. JenStar Runner: Maybe. The word betrayal implies a measure of intent to harm or some kind of treachery for the person who perceives she is being betrayed. I don’t believe that Tyrion ever had any intention of harming or outwardly undermining Dany. I think everything he does is for the larger common good, which includes Dany.

      I don’t think he was plotting all along to save Cersei in a way that prioritized Cersei over his duties to Dany. I think he probably thought he could have it both ways. If Cersei could have found it within herself to be more reasonable, he might have succeeded.

      I absolutely agree. Tyrion wasn’t betraying Dany all along. That’s nonsense. If he had been, he wouldn’t need to have bothered to snitch on Varys, one of his best friends. He could have just let his plans play out without getting involved. No, he told Daenerys because at that point he still believed in her (although he was beginning to have his doubts).

      All his seemingly bad advice to Daenerys in seasons 7 and 8 weren’t to undermine her, but to protect the innocent people.

      He didn’t necessarily want to see Cersei die, but he was resigned to it, UNTIL he found out that Jaime was captured and would probably be executed. It was only THEN that he hatched the plan for Jaime to get them to the skiff and escape. My point is, he only did this for Jaime, and he knew that the only way that Jaime would agree is if he could also save Cersei in the process.

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    185. Ghostgirl,

      There is going to be a title sequence. I remember the creators of the new title sequence said in an interview that the sequence will keep changing, indicating new events taking place and that they are really excited for the title sequence for the finale, because they could do something else (something special). That may be king’s landing burning or the Targaryen sigil above the iron throne or something like that.

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    186. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Over/under on the amount of people in this thread who signed the petition for HBO to remake the final season? I put it at 5.

      I’m ready for the show to end, if for no other reason than to escape all of the negativity. It’s everywhere, even in places that have nothing to do with the show.

      My prediction? People are going to hate the finale no matter what.

      Wow, people will start a petition over literally anything these days, won’t they? What a ludicrous thing to do and what an insult to the years of work put into these season by the crew and the cast. Perhaps those same people who signed it should quit while they’re ahead and not watch the finale lest it offend their crushed expectations.

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    187. Tron79:
      I’m not exactly sure how Tyrion would be allowed to walk around freely. I would think Dany would imprison him after finding out he let Jaime free.

      I don’t imagine he will be free much longer once Daenerys learns he helped Jaime escape.

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    188. People are calling her the mad queen, may I point out the Lannisters and Starks are responsible for far more deaths of civilians in the war of kings than Dany’s purge of KL. Therefore based on war crimes shouldn’t they be called mad Starks and Lannisters too.
      I’ve read that GoT actors are hurt and upset at many fan reactions, the internet can go too far, therefore fans need to apologize to the cast and crew of GoT.
      The problem has been fan theories, people read them attach a like to one or more theory and expect that to occur, if it doesn’t come to fruition they rage hate on the show for not meeting their expectations. Yes it was rushed and 7-8 should have been 20 episodes, but don’t rage because what you wanted didn’t happen.

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    189. Steel_Wind: And because of that, on Sunday night, Daenerys will be dead.

      Not so sure. I’ve been trying to think what the last twist would be. Maybe she stays on the throne, kills Jon and Tyrion, and everyone bows down and kisses her ass, the way they did when she killed all the Khals and walked out naked to Dothraki awe and adoration. At least that’s what it looks and sounds like she’s expecting. “Sansa must respect me.” blah blah blah

      She certainly gets off on awe and adoration, she’s become addicted to it, and has only ever had exactly that at the time of every conquest.

      Of course, all those conquests=awe episodes were on Essos. She’s not getting any of that adoration in Westeros. She did risk her life and her dragon at Winterfell, and notably did not kill Jon even though she already knew of his parentage, only to hear Tormund praise Jon for being able to ride a dragon. Tormund is a sweet dumbass, she could have handled that. But, you could almost hear her internal scream “I rode a dragon first!!” When you add grief and anger to adoration withdrawal, you get one shaky bitch, not necessarily madness. She just may manage to stay. That would be awful, but not impossible.

      That being said, I’m a bit annoyed there were only two pictures.

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    190. Young Dragon:
      Zen-Face,

      Time jumping has existed since season 1 and has been present in every season since, not just seasons 7 and 8. In fact, season 8 has probably had the least amount of time jumping than any season.

      Truth. Catelyn was all over Westeros like she had a Star Trek teleporter.

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    191. QueenofThrones,

      Yes I have been thinking since the last two episodes that probably Jon Snow gets the throne, abdicates and goes beyond the wall to reunite with Ghost and Thormund and the Free Folk that know no absolute monarchs. After what we saw in Ep5 he most probably even more fed up with the feudal system in Westeros than before. Also to me, that would be bittersweet. Other than that, I also have no idea where the “sweet” part could still come from. The Iron Throne needs to go.

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    192. I suspected we wouldn’t get any pictures this week (I’m surprised we got a preview), but surely no pictures are better than these two, one of which is taken from the preview and the other is very close to the image of Tyrion staring ominously/fearfully in the preview? It’s a bit of a tease.

      So I am going in to this finale with my mind open to absolutely any possibilities, even ranging to the utterly bleak – Dany keeps the throne and rules as a tyrant after flaming literally every other named character to ashes- to the ridiculous – Dany realises what a monster she has become and she rides to Valyria with Drogon to die in the home of her ancestors in a beautiful/traumatic/heartbreaking moment. Jon ascends to the throne, but as he doesn’t want it, he agrees to let a council run the kingdoms instead. He says he’s heading north, but on his way to his horse he comes across a flamed-haired young woman who reminds him of Ygritte. They go for a coffee in the ruins of the King’s Landing’s Starbucks outlet, realise they’re made for each other and skip off into the still-smoking sunset to go get married and have lots of babies. …….. back to reality. It’s going to be messy, upsetting and going to make me pretty angry when my favourite, undoubtedly, ends up dying for some awful reason. But hey, I love this show, and I’m ready for the heartbreak.

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    193. Thronetender: That being said, I’m a bit annoyed there were only two pictures.

      I wonder if that doesn’t mean that Jon is now a prisoner (GW did have an eye on him when he called his troops to fall back), and/or Sansa’s been brought south.
      She’s #1 on Dany’s list now, and we have yet to see the climax of their rivalry.

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    194. Tycho Nestoris:
      Jack Nabble,

      GW should have locked Jon up or killed him, along with any other Northerners, as soon as the battle ended.

      Still quite possible. It would be the right time for Dany to take out all of WFs defenses wherever they may be.

      If Jon kills Dany, the Dothraki and the Unsullied still need to be dealt with, and it’s clear that they overpower the Northern forces. This is a huge problem when considering Jon defeating Dany.

      Maybe all those scrolls Varys sent out come into play, but don’t we know the Dothraki and Unsullied won’t surrender? I’d also hate if armies from Dorne and other southern realms show up to save the day out of no where.

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    195. Netheb: First I find the “Sansa sowing chaos” a bit too strong. Dany sowed chaos by burning KL. I’m not sure that can be said of Sansa revealing Jon’s secret to Dany’s Hand.

      Sansa’s point was NOT to have “more discord between Dany and Jon”. She did it to make Dany’s advisors doubt her even more than before and turn to Jon. As I said before, the more people know about Jon, the less likely it is that Dany just kills him in a quiet corner. Ba

      Renly’s Peach: I absolutely agree.Tyrion wasn’t betraying Dany all along.That’s nonsense.If he had been, he wouldn’t need to have bothered to snitch on Varys, one of his best friends.He could have just let his plans play out without getting involved.No, he told Daenerys because at that point he still believed in her (although he was beginning to have his doubts).

      All his seemingly bad advice to Daenerys in seasons 7 and 8 weren’t to undermine her, but to protect the innocent people.

      He didn’t necessarily want to see Cersei die, but he was resigned to it, UNTIL he found out that Jaime was captured and would probably be executed.It was only THEN that he hatched the plan for Jaime to get them to the skiff and escape.My point is, he only did this for Jaime, and he knew that the only way that Jaime would agree is if he could also save Cersei in the process.

      And as someone else pointed out above, he wanted Jaime to go in and convince Cersei to ring the bells and give up. There was a lot going on in the scene, and the last moments seemed to indicate that he didn’t think Jamie was going to be successful.

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    196. Ghost’s Lunch,

      I’d like Jon to “ghost” Westeros and head North to become the de facto 1,000th Lord Commander. There is plenty of support for that to happen.

      But we unfortunately learned a lesson from Beric. Jon must have some important task to fulfill. Not sure if self-exile to the North is that task, sorry to say.

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    197. Renly’s Peach,

      Is your point that Daenerys won’t kill Jon because she “loves” him?

      No offense. This has argument no basis in any reality. People kill people they “love” quite often and it’s been done literally in the show before too (Stannis).

      You can pitch it any way you like, Daenerys not killing Jon undoes all her actions in ep 5 (which countless individuals on this site and others have adamantly defended as “set up”). So for her to just pretend all is good with Jon because she loves him is hollow and beyond ignorant. It’s moronic. And a lazy way to get to her downfall.

      Daenerys is paranoid, angry, and all powered up. If Jon survives KL, it better be explained in microscopic detail and “love”, at this point in the story, is not a satisfactory answer.

      Additionally, while Daenerys’ cruelty has been foreshadowed and nurtured (narratively speaking), her “love” of Jon has not. It certainly is not more important to her than the Iron Throne. That was displayed quite directly in ep 5 (“let it be fear”). In Daenerys’ mind Jon is not more important than the Iron Throne and that cannot have changed.

      ShameShameShame,

      I’m starting to think Dany will win.

      ^if she doesn’t, there better be a compelling answer to why not.

      ShameShameShame,

      Maybe all those scrolls Varys sent out come into play, but don’t we know the Dothraki and Unsullied won’t surrender? I’d also hate if armies from Dorne and other southern realms show up to save the day out of no where.

      Is there enough tv time and audience appetite for another battle though?

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    198. Apollo:
      Danny,

      The point I made is that Sansa did not “let slip” to Tyrion. She planned to tell him about Jon, and she knew it would have repercussions.

      She knew the lengths her father went to keep that secret. She knew the impact it had on her mother and family. She knew that the 7Ks would bleed if the truth came out- because that’s precisely why her father kept the secret.So there is no way she didn’t understand that there would be consequences, and whilst nobody could’ve expected what actually happened-Sansa was cognisant of what Targaryens can do.

      I agree with some of what you are saying here, but I don’t think that Ned kept the R+L=J secret because he thought the 7 kingdoms would bleed….I think he kept it to save the life of his beloved sister’s only child. It has been stated several times, that Robert would have killed Jon, if he knew of his parentage. I don’t think that equates to the truth of it causing wars and carnage….but I think it would have meant certain death for baby Jon. Ned dishonored himself to protect Jon, lying to his best friend and wife, because that was his sister’s dying wish. Personally, I think Sansa dishonored herself for the same reason…to protect Jon. She broke her oath of sworn secrecy, because she was genuinely afraid for his life. Jon, like the complete dolt he has been portrayed as this season, told the one person (Dany) in the universe he shouldn’t have told! I know, I know….he loves her, yada yada….but politically, it was a completely idiotic thing to do. Sansa rightly understands that Dany having this knowledge makes Jon a target. I felt like the statements she made (“I don’t want Jon to go South.” “Jon will be Warden of the North.” “You’re afraid of her.”) were indicative of her worry for him, rather than those of a shrewd kingmaker working the angles. But I know we all see different things, which is what keeps it interesting 😉

      Thank you, Luka, for the pics!

        Quote  Reply

    199. orange:
      While people argue over whether or not Jaime should have died with Cersei, they miss quite an ironic twist of fate with Jaime’s character and arc. He is present, back in the Red Keep, 20+ years later when the daughter of the man he killed to protect innocents, finishes the job her father wanted to start and this time there is nothing he can do about it. Some will say this renders Jaime an utterly pointless character whose arc meant nothing, but I think it’s just the opposite of that. I think it’s quite symbolic of human existence. Perhaps atrocities in life are sometimes just delayed but never prevented.

      However, this is also why I think Jon will kill Dany. They intentionally mirrored Jon and Jaime from almost the very beginning with that handshake scene in 102. That was a show invention not from the books and one that NCW said in the commentary for that episode the showrunners wanted to do. Both wound up Lord Commanders of their respective groups, both wound up taking lifetime vows and giving up a right to a wife and family, both broke those vows and had regrets about taking them. They’re quite similar, intentionally so I think, and this is why I believe Jon will do to Dany what Jaime did to her father. And probably like Jaime, Jon will have a stigma attached to him for it, even if not deserved.

      Oh, I like that! Very perceptive.

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    200. Young Dragon,

      Time jumping refers to time spacing without development. s1-6 was pretty religious about providing reasonable (embedded) cues and orientation points to indicate time passage. That would include character changes of attitude and POV etc.. s7-8 has dispensed with this approach almost entirely. Jaime’s arc pretty much sums it up.

      Jack Nabble,

      “Can you sound more condescending and smug please, i don’t think you nailed it that much as you think you did. Also love how you supposedly don’t care about what i think but you did bother to write back a long ass essay that i did not even bother to read it in entirety since it’s pretty much just regurgitated dribble that i’ve seen times and times again to the point that i’m bored by it .”

      I didn’t say I don’t care what you think – I said that I don’t care what you like. Using ‘what you like’ as a self-referential position of authority is little more than an example of pompous self-righteousness, regardless of how slack your posture is. Seeing that you didn’t read my post – pretty much anything you say about it irrelevant.

      Are you reading much e.e. cummings? Is that where the lower case i’s come from? Or is your attention span that well developed? Wait! You have heard of e.e. cummings?

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    201. Netheb: I wonder if that doesn’t mean that Jon is now a prisoner (GW did have an eye on him when he called his troops to fall back), and/or Sansa’s been brought south.

      You’re probably right. Gads, I hate even the thought of it, either thing, but if both happen, I will be in one sour mood next week.

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    202. z4luvr,

      Yes. And it seemed to me that Varys’ ring might have poison stones, similar to Sansa’s necklace. The camera lingered on it and practically hung it on the wall.

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    203. Tycho Nestoris: Additionally, while Daenerys’ cruelty has been foreshadowed and nurtured (narratively speaking), her “love” of Jon has not. It certainly is not more important to her than the Iron Throne.

      You’ve got that right. His parentage reveals his technical greater claim to the throne, yet she tells him to shut up about it and never mention it again because it will overtake her claim. Not love.

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    204. carbonUnit: carbonUnit

      Wow, lots of ashes on the ground. Must be the burned plot outlines from seasons 7 and 8.

      “Ding, dong!” You win…! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
      Love it!

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    205. Thronetender: You’re probably right. Gads, I hate even the thought of it, either thing, but if both happen, I will be in one sour mood next week.

      Will you? I’m super excited because Jon will finally be able to drop the pretence.
      I’ve kind of predicted that Jon has been afraid of what Dany might do ever since 7.04 when she already threatened to “melt castles and burn cities”.
      He had to follow her because he’s stuck with his promise, but now there’s nothing that could keep him from revealing he was never the love-blinded fool.

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    206. JenStar Runner: I cannot be bothered to go look up the next Jon scene post-wight killing, but my muddy memory suggests that we did get a brief moment of an injured hand.

      Jon was wearing a big-ass bandage on his hand in the next episode, indicating he had a serious burn.

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    207. Young Dragon,

      Netheb,

      I thought Sansa would be kidnapped last week, and we’d get a replay of Cersei/Missandei featuring Dany/Sansa. You are totally right we may see that this week instead.

      So how could that work? Dany demands that Jon bends the knee or Sansa eats it. Jon, who is only the second man whose word is golden to Dany, finally learns to freakin lie when a crazy Queen wants something from him, and she believes him. Could work, based on past show dialog.

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    208. QueenofThrones: Tyrion rationalizes as “all for the common good” but that’s not his motivation.His reason is (at first) to protect Jaime (s7) and (later) to protect Cersei’s child by Jaime (late s7/s8).

      For example, let’s say that Tyrion’s plan works, Dany does not burn KL or the Red keep, but rather invades them on foot, freeing Cersei and Jaime to live another day as they are able to escape via the catacombs.

      Tyrion HAS TO KNOW that escape by Cersei will do nothing but bring more suffering to the people as Dany will not rest until Cersei and her child are dead.Yet he facilitates Jaime helping her escape.

      If he only cared about Jaime, he could free him without Cersei rescue as an option.Send him north with Davos and make him stay there.Tyrion doesn’t even try this because it’s not what he wants – Tyrion ultimately is loyal to House Lannister, and wants to save all of its members, including Cersei.

      This was 100%, absolutely a betrayal.He has intentionally undermined her rule by attempting to keep Cersei and her child alive.This will help no one but Jaime and Cersei.We just don’t want to believe it because “Tyrion means well” and because he keeps saying he’s loyal.

      Tyrion knows his sister well enough to know this is not possible.He was unwilling to sacrifice 1 objectively evil person for the greater good of thousands, because she was his sister, and she carried a Lannister in her belly.It’s a fatal flaw.

      I don’t agree. It was only Jaime that Tyrion was trying to save. And he knew that to get Jaime to agree to save himself, he would have to save Cersei too. Had Jaime not showed up, Tyrion would not have tried to help Cersei escape on her own.

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    209. Tycho Nestoris: I’m starting to think Dany will win.

      ^if she doesn’t, there better be a compelling answer to why not.

      Because she literally does not have one single ally on the entire planet? Not one.

      Could Daenerys kill Jon? Yes. She might try to do so. She might even succeed (though I think it unlikely without getting killed by the event herself) But yeah, she could. Sure.

      So why can’t she win? Because if she kills Jon, she has a Faceless Man who will do anything to kill her. And Daenerys does not know Arya is a Faceless Man. And there is nothing Deanerys can do to stop Arya from assassinating her. We all know this. That’s Arya’s Superpower.

      So that means Daenerys will die if she kills Jon.

      And because of what she did after The Bells rang, she will die if she doesn’t, too. If Jon does not, Tyrion will get Bronn to kill her. Arya already wants to kill her given what she saw in the streets of KL. Ser Davos wants to kill her for the same reason — it was his town. He still had a wife and one son who lived there. Lord Gendry now wants to kill her, too. Same reason as Davos. Sansa already does – and took steps to see others might come to the same conclusion.

      It’s not who wants to kill her: the real question is, who doesn’t?

      Grey Worm and presumably the rest of the Unsullied and, perhaps, some (and only some, given their losses to date) of the Dothraki. That’s the list of people in Westeros who DO NOT want to kill The Mad Queen.

      Cersei had more allies than Daenerys does now.

      Which means she will die. That’s why the show writers had her burn thousands of innocents. Dany had millions of heavily invested fans. And they knew that. So as they are going to kill her they need to give fans a reason why she “needs killing”. Fans of dramatic television will need a reason why one of the heroes kills another.

      We now have it.

      We shall tune in to find out who. We already know all about the why.

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    210. SerKnight:
      Tyrion’s Cape,

      QueenofThrones,

      QueenofThrones,

      I thought the whole point for Tyrion to free Jaime was so Jaime could convince Cersei to ring the bells and give up so that Daenerys wouldn’t roast the entire city. It wasn’t only because he wanted to save his family and he even said he was willing to give his own life to save a lot of innocent people

      The whole point of Tyrion freeing Jaime was because he loved his brother and didn’t want him to be burned alive by Daenerys.

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    211. ShameShameShame:
      Netheb, So how could that work? Dany demands that Jon bends the knee or Sansa eats it. Jon, who is only the second man whose word is golden to Dany, finally learns to freakin lie when a crazy Queen wants something from him, and she believes him.

      There’s no way Jon could kneel again to this war-criminal queen.
      Because of her he already had to become complicit in KL’s almost genocide. If he still supports all the shit she’s doing then he can die with her lol. I hope that’s not what happens. You know I believe in political!Jon 😉

      Anyway, Dany will certainly be hell-bent on toasting Sansa now. And we’ve seen before that Jon’s trigger button *is* Sansa/his family. He’s been suppressing his reactions everytime Dany threatened them. He has to snap eventually.

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    212. Netheb,

      No he won’t ever truly bend the knee, but he may lie about it to save Sansa, or Arya, in the moment.

      That doesn’t mean the ruse needs to be a long term commitment. Just long enough to save them, or gain a small amount of trust, enough to get close to her. Similar to how Dany and Tyrion wanted Jon to lie and “bend the knee” to Cersei.

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    213. ShameShameShame,

      At this point even a ruse sounds unbearable lol. Jon’s been using them since season 7 😉 It’s high time Jon shows his true colours.
      In the moment I could see him lie again to save them, but Dany will still die on sunday. By whose hand? Jon’s? Arya’s? Her own?

      I don’t know. If I could choose I’d like a public trial and execution. The butchered people of KL deserve it.

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    214. Zen-Face,

      You know that in season 1 we jump ahead of time and then back in time going back to another scene. For instance 1×08
      Day 1: Sansa writing the letters
      Day 3 or 4 (don’t know how long a Raven fly to winterfell) : robb and cat reads letters
      Back to day 1 with sansa
      Day 10/12: Robb meets cat.
      Back to day 2/5: for the ending of the episode.

      Later season get bashed for it. The first season praised. It happens there a lot. They even stated it that some storyline per season is for someone a week and some a couple of months. Even in the earlier seasons.

      Another is season 3. 3×03 and 3×04 is just one day for dany in between. But for instance in kings landing more time has passed.

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    215. Dany, unfortunately, did not seem to grow up with much of a support system. Her older brother was a cruel little git who only thought about using her. Perhaps there was a nurse or nanny, but there is no real evidence of that.

      Drogo may, in fact, have been the first person who actually was kind to her and thought of her (not as a means to an end) but as an end in and of herself – the way people should treat one another.

      Others in Essos rallied to her cause as they beheld her righteousness, enthusiasm for justice, and undeniable magic. Among them: Jorah, Missandei, Grey Worm, etc. They became her support system.

      With all of them dead, except for Grey Worm, she lost it, plain and simple.

      Maybe a maester from the Citadel with a chain for expertise in anger management and trauma will show up and host an intervention for the purpose of providing some healing for this now supremely powerful Queen with the soul of a lost, damaged child. Dany’s sunken eyes at the beginning of Episode 5 were painful to behold.

      But that probably won’t happen.

      I expect Tryion to head to Jon’s camp to discuss what to do about the situation with the rest of the remaining Westerosi. Then more fighting. This time between the remaining Westerosi and the remaining Unsullied and Dothraki.

      I hope no killing of Dany by Jon even though that is the way folks from the North traditionally handle problems when sentence is passed. Killing your lover would be too horrible a fate to imagine for his character. He’s a gentle, dutiful lad, at heart.

      Maybe Brienne will do the deed at the last moment in her role as protector of the Stark children and suffer no psychological consequences for fulfilling her honorable role.

      Arya certainly doesn’t need to kill any more people. Sandor taught her that.

      Poor Drogon. He (or she) will fly off towards Essos alone to roam and lay eggs.

      The remaining Unsullied and Dothraki – repatriated uneventfully.

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    216. Tycho Nestoris:
      Renly’s Peach,

      Is your point that Daenerys won’t kill Jon because she “loves” him?

      No offense. This has argument no basis in any reality. People kill people they “love” quite often and it’s been done literally in the show before too (Stannis).

      You can pitch it any way you like, Daenerys not killing Jon undoes all her actions in ep 5 (which countless individuals on this site and others have adamantly defended as “set up”). So for her to just pretend all is good with Jon because she loves him is hollow and beyond ignorant. It’s moronic. And a lazy way to get to her downfall.

      No. I’m saying that Daenerys hasn’t killed Jon up to this point because she loves him. She thought that there might still be hope for their relationship until he spurned her a second time. As we saw in ep 5, love was clearly on her mind when she said to Jon, “Is that all I am to you? Your queen?” Then she went in for a kiss, and he turned away from her. That rejection certainly played a part in her giving in to her worst impulses.

      Now that she has no hope for their relationship, and will shortly pronounce herself queen of the seven kingdoms, Jon is fair game. Although I think Tyrion will get the brunt of her anger.

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    217. Thronetender,

      But if Jon is a prisoner and Dany gone mad, where would the bitterSWEET element come from? There aren’t any people left for whom any ending would be possibly go sweet. Would be a peaceful reunion of Sansa and Arya at WF be enough for this? There must be some meaningful heartening element in the ending to be able to call it bittersweet. Jon being killed by Dany who remains on the throne would smash any notion of that IMO….

      What does everyone think? What could be sweet in the ending?

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    218. Che,

      Yikes. Too keep in got ending terms. Those people are really bitter aren’t they.

      Tyjon,

      Not 20 16 was enough. 20 would be too much.

      As for social media. People are horrible. I read yesterday that Massie had a complex because of things posting online about her looks. Some are just scum. (and Massie if you read this, you’re a very beautiful woman, just be yourself and ignore the idiots)

      As for the casualties. Dany killed around half a million in short time. I can see the war of 5 kings exceeding that but that was years of fighting. But still I don’t think that exceeded the half million yet.

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    219. Kevin1989,

      I’ll have to go back to the items you cited to see what’s what, but I recall very little shifting of time and space in s1-6 without embedding some kind of orientation point or clue as to where the viewer is in the storyline. S7-8 jerks the viewer around so often as to our seldom having a chance to know where we or the characters are, either physically or emotionally/mentally. IMO this is a direct result of GoT not only rush truncating GRRM’s story, but of compressing and abridging itself.

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    220. Sansa doesn’t owe Dany anything, my god!

      The show has been true to their vision of a kinder gentler Tyrion so it’s not inconsistent but seeing people talk about Tyrion as caring about the common good and the everyday person just cracks me up, as a book purist. They have whitewashed him absolutely beyond reason. Does he have an occasional soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things? Sure. But he is also power-hungry and 95% focused on his own desire for recognition, control over Casterly Rock, and whatever other political position he can get. He very rarely gives a thought to the good of the common man and is often grossly indifferent if not actively callous to it.

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    221. Young Dragon: No, there’s not. If you read the comments section, you will find that people did the math and discovered that there is 1500-3000 UnSullied left.

      I said there are more than we saw in Episode 3.

      The Unsullied line up before the Battle of Winterfell looked to be smaller.

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    222. Sanrya,

      Im with you. All that we saw this season and last made it clear Sansa wants family. She didn’t name herself queen of the north when the lord chose her. She begs Jon not to go. Sees tyrion is afraid of her. And tyrion stated every ruler should show a little fear.

      Sansa even stated she didn’t want to leave her man in episode 3. She rather would have died with her people.

      She even gets love from others which dany is jeleous off.

      Personally I hope Sansa will be the one killing her. But I can’t seem to think of any logical way how. But else give it to Arya or Jon.

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    223. Colin Dougherty: Poor Drogon. He (or she) will fly off towards Essos alone to roam and lay eggs.

      Well, the books tell us how to deal with the Targ’s dragons. Sam would know, depending on the book he read. (Interesting point concerning what might be in the stolen books, which now seems to be a plot device D&D decided to dispense with).

      Anyway, in GRRM’s world, you poison them. That is how the conspiracy among the Maesters at the Citadel killed the last of the Targ’s dragons.

      So, in theory, you bait and poison Drogon. The Mad Queen’s power is now a few thousand Unsullied and an increasingly unhappy – and smaller – group of Dothraki screamers.

      All of that would be reasonable for the balance of 5 episodes, say. We have 80 minutes. I’m guessing it’s likely to be more direct than that.

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    224. Thronetender: His parentage reveals his technical greater claim to the throne, yet she tells him to shut up about it and never mention it again because it will overtake her claim. Not love.

      Well, Daenerys thinks she loves Jon, which in her mind is the same thing. We can see that her idea of love is very flawed, and that her megalomania takes precedence, but that doesn’t change the fact that in her mind, she loved him.

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    225. Steel_Wind,

      I disagree that 1) that she has no allies (Asha, Daario, Riverlands?, Highgarden?, Dorne?) and 2) that allies even matter to her safety as a person.

      Daenerys had physical threats. Now, she only has political ones (b/c drogon). Varys’ power quote in Daenerys’ context makes her the swordsman. Power’s balance lies in her mind. She need simply to think, and the threat is ash.

      The reason of “needs killing” is wanting and why this show is getting panned. A story outcome (“Daenerys must die”), based on the audience’s opinion of the character, has already been beat to death twice (Ramsay, Walder Frey, some might include Cersei and Euron). And both times the death had little significance other than to quell an artificial bloodlust (def include Euron here).

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    226. Poor Drogon.He (or she) will fly off towards Essos alone to roam and lay eggs.

      Here’s hoping for that.

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    227. Netheb,

      It’s the last week ever that I can try to piece together the script decisions of the past to tie up the story cohesively in the finale… and yeah I’ve scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point lol.

      Jon’s honor, and his word, has been a theme not only for himself but for so many other characters. If it doesn’t matter in the final episode, I just don’t know.

      He can walk away from the throne exile himself. He can die. He can decide he shouldn’t live because he has evil coinflipping Targ blood and get mercied.

      The only thing I’m sure is that he won’t sit the throne. But in the meantime we need to shoehorn Sansa, Bran and Arya into the endgame. Arya is easier to place, and I think her destiny is Nymerian, so that leaves Sansa in danger.

      Maybe both Bran and Sansa kidnapped?

      The pack survives, I’d like to think. Arya made a point or reminding Jon of that.

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    228. AlwaysWinter:
      Thronetender,

      What does everyone think? What could be sweet in the ending?

      Crazier endgame ideas aside?

      Ayra lives. I’d be good. Nymeria, end of.

      Sansa would be a remarkable ruler, that would be sweet for me but the fandom might lose it. I hold out hope for an implied future Sansa/Gendry pairing.

      Davos heads back to his wife, he still has a wife doesn’t he?

      Brienne is pregnant. I’d find that sweet.

      I guess that means I think the rest will be bitter.

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    229. Kevin1989:
      ShameShameShame,

      Who has his ring now?

      The camera followed, in close up, Varys removing his rings and placing them in a cup on his desk. One had stones all around like an eternity band. It was hard to see the color, not sure if they were the same color Sansa’s necklace (the Strangler).

      There were one or two other larger rings but that was the one the camera lingered on.

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    230. ShameShameShame: I hold out hope for an implied future Sansa/Gendry pairing.

      Why? I read quite a few people’s comments about how they’re hoping for a Sansa/Gendry pairing. Some of them before S8 started. But now?

      I get that it is not completely out of the picture. But the guy just fell head over heels in love with Sansa’s sister, proposed and got rejected. And some people think it would be sweet if he just tries it with the next Stark girl?
      https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6a/31/c0/6a31c0c285d3eccd7dae2eda208c199d.jpg
      😃

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    231. QueenofThrones,

      In the planning session in ep 4, it is stated (by Tyrion or Jon), that the bulk of the surviving Unsullied was marching to KL with the Dorthraki and the Northmen. Under the overall command of Jon and Davos. A smaller force was sailing back to Dragonstone with Dany and the dragons.

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    232. Cliohna,

      I get it, I know. I’m not saying they need to immediately hook up, I’m thinking long term. If they all survive of course.

      A Baratheon/Stark union brings us back to the beginning of the story, to Ned and Robert honoring their friendship by joining their families. I’m not a Sansa hater, she deserves a strong, young, whole, handsome man who would treat her kindly, and she does have a destiny as a Lady or possibly more. Gendry deserves a family and a Lady.

      But who else would Sansa marry, who is left of the noble houses? It can’t be her cousin Robyn. I suppose it could be the new unnamed Dornish Prince. I hope it’s not Tyrion. Sam is taken. Freys are gone. Tyrells are gone. Northern houses are devastated. There is no one else left.

      Are we really to believe that the only reason Dany/GRRM/D&D would legitimize Gendry is so he can either die or go wallow in Storm’s End? As the new Lord of SE (and possibly the heir to the throne) who would be a match for him? I suppose there are some Frey girls.

      Ideally sure, it would be poignant for Arya to go back to Gendry and accept his proposal, but it wouldn’t be true to her character. No fairytale ending there. Arya will be heading elsewhere and I think she’d give her blessing.

      Sansa’s worldliness and Gendry’s common touch would be an excellent match as rulers. I’m not sure the Iron Throne will survive the series though.

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    233. I have a vision of Robin Arryn finally manning up and coming to the defense of the North against Daenerys.

      I also admit to being a total eejit when it comes to visions.

      ¯_(⊙_ʖ⊙)_/¯

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    234. My thoughts on the ending (and I have thought this since before the season started) are:

      Dany dies (not sure by whom or how)
      Jon/Aegon ends up on the throne. He reluctantly accepts his duty after realizing he is possibly the one person to unite the country and give it peace. He will have support of the North (Sansa), Vale (R. Aryn), the Reach (Sam Tarly or Bronn), Westerlands (Tyrion), Stormlands (Gendry), Iron Islands (Yara) and Dorne (?).
      Davos is his hand.

      Not sure if Arya travels or settles down with Gendry. I didn’t think settling down was a possibility until she chose life over revenge.

      Not sure what happens to Bran. He seems to have served his purpose, but I could see him playing a role in the last episode.

      I think we have seen the last of Tormund and Ghost. If you think the fan base is upset now, I can’t even imagine their anger if Jon/Aegon decides to decline the thrown and go North (mainly talking about the casual fans, not necessarily the “hardcore fans”).

      * of course, as usual, I very likely could be completely wrong about all of this.

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    235. I think Sansa has to be involved in whatever happens to Dany.
      She’s been a large part of Dany’s season-set up as more of a nemesis than Cersei tbh.
      Dany has brought her up on multiple occasions, including blaming her for Varys burning last episode. And more time has been spent filming the glaring going on between them than scenes with Sansa and Jon or Jon and Dany kissing combined.

      Arya’s reunion with Jon-most awaited reunion in the series-contained conversation about
      1. Their two swords
      2. Sansa, and how smart she is and Jon needing to remember that he’s her family too.

      Sophie says she kept a raven scroll that was a huge spoiler, and we haven’t seen it yet.

      Sam, who is team Jon, and Bran are still in Winterfell with Sansa. That’s a lot of knowledge surrounding the student of LF who claimed knowledge was power. Also Tyrion used to say things like, “My mind is my weapon” and he has a connection with Sansa as well.

      We’ve just seen power is power in action with devastating results. Maybe we’ll see the other side of the coin the finale? Maybe Bran will have a helpful vision?

      Am I just reaching because I don’t want the story to end with Jaime cuddling Cersei and Jon stabbing Dany?
      Maybe.

      ShameShameShame,

      Everything you’re saying makes sense, and that could happen, because then every single romance people have been anticipating throughout the book and show series could be smashed by the finale. Jon and Dany, Jaime and Brienne, Arya and Gendry, even San-San lol
      Sam and Gilly can’t be the only people who find a small bit of happiness in all of Westeros right? And the truest love story is between a vile, shallow, sadistic woman and her twin brother who just can’t quit her?
      It’s a little too dark isn’t it? Even for this series.
      Also, are we sure Sansa will be with anyone? What Ramsay did to her, and the fact that she’s only shown her vulnerable side with Theon, might mean she’d choose to be Lady of Winterfell or whatever she becomes, without marrying at all. Or she could marry someone she could easily control and keep out of her bedroom.

      Gendry might throw us all for a loop and decide not to rule Storm’s End. To give it to Davos instead and head off with Arya on her adventures. Why not? They don’t have a typical relationship, and they always traveled well together 🙂

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    236. Jack Nabble,

      It’s clearly not supposed to be Harry’s white horse that Arya finds since his horse clearly died from a fatal spine twisting blast of dragon fire. HOWEVER, it is, in fact, the exact same horse used for the two scenes. The markings on its left nostril are distinctly identical. This took me aback at first and I had to rewatch Harry’s horse getting killed to be sure it really did die. Not a big deal. It’s a gorgeous, well-trained horse so why not use it twice.

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    237. Renly’s Peach,

      Here, here!

      There should always be magic in the world: beings, things, and processes beyond our control that allow us to encounter awe and wonder within ourselves and (by such discovery) begin (and forever continue) the constant labor of philosophical inquiry, discourse and becoming more fully human.

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    238. Steel_Wind,

      Lol. I’m not making excuses for her. Just trying to maybe make sense of the show runners words to the contrary. Speculation is fun. Don’t lump me in with the Dany superfans.

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    239. ShameShameShame: But who else would Sansa marry, who is left of the noble houses? It can’t be her cousin Robyn. I suppose it could be the new unnamed Dornish Prince. I hope it’s not Tyrion. Sam is taken. Freys are gone. Tyrells are gone. Northern houses are devastated. There is no one else left.

      I can’t agree at all. If Sansa gets married for a third (!) time, it will have to be 100% on her terms. I don’t think she wants a man in her life. She may feel a duty to continue the Stark line, but I don’t think even that’s enough. I think she’s confident enough to just get pregnant and tell everyone else to deal with it. Jon was a bastard Stark (supposedly) and was declared King, after all.

      The only person she has a genuine connection to at this point is Tyrion. There’s mutual respect there and potential for deep understanding. Someone like Gendry just isn’t on Sansa’s radar – he’s a simpleton and he’s in love with her sister, of all people. I think Sansa ultimately chooses to be alone.

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    240. Colin Dougherty: Maybe a maester from the Citadel with a chain for expertise in anger management and trauma will show up and host an intervention for the purpose of providing some healing for this now supremely powerful Queen with the soul of a lost, damaged child.

      Yes please. This is the ending we all truly need.
      (*sigh*)

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    241. I know it won’t happen, but would love to see a scene where Dany orders Drogon to burn Jon and he refuses, lol

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    242. Emily: I don’t think Sansa wants a man in her life.

      Honestly I’m not sure about that. I believe Sansa is being set up for a romantic storyline this season.
      In 8.04 during the feast she’s looking at couples and hookups with a look on her face that made me think she’s ready for this. She (dare I say it?) looked at Jon with heart-eyes during that scene too. And there is also this systematic reintroducing of potential partners for Sansa, at least ones that have been theorized about by the fandom. In any case, I don’t want her to be a second choice. The girl deserves happiness and love and a family.

      ShameShameShame: The only thing I’m sure is that Jon won’t sit the throne.But in the meantime we need to shoehorn Sansa, Bran and Arya into the endgame.Arya is easier to place, and I think her destiny is Nymerian, so that leaves Sansa in danger.

      I think the reason why Jon doesn’t want to be king is his self-worth issues AND the fact that he wants to be in the North with his family, in the place that is his home.
      He always wanted to be a leader: remember his nod when Jeor asks him if he wants to lead someday, or his smile when he was named Lord Commander and KitN.

      Of course he’s never had ambitions for the throne: he didn’t want to hear about titles because those don’t matter when humanity is at stake. But at the same time Jon doesn’t want chaos and war. He wants to build a world that is different from the shit one people have always known. So then, after all that shit is over and Dany gone, he’ll need some time to brood lol. But he’s not gonna stay in exile for the rest of his life. The IT is gone, he can rule from wherever he wants now.

      As for him holding the reins of the 7K on his own… No.
      As I said last week, Jon and Sansa ruling together makes a ton of sense for the realm.

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    243. I really can’t predict not even tinfoil about how the story ends, I only have a few stray thoughts:

      – After what happened it’s possible that Dany goes after anyone who knows about Jon/Aegon and can threaten her claim: Sansa,Arya, Bran,Sam,Gilly, Tyrion,Jon will be targets.
      -Someone will have to take Dany out, as they will never be safe -Sansa may have a plan on that.
      -Jon and Tyrion likely have a change of heart as Dany seems hellbent in her decision to install fear to all and doesn’t show any remorse for what she did.So, as hard as it is to accept that she’s gone dark mode, they will see it for what it is. And then they will realize they need to do something about it.
      -Now the big question is who takes Dany out, and how. These to me are the most important points for what happens afterwards.
      If they have Jon kill Dany there’s no way he’ll ever sit on the throne. That would damage him so deeply because he loves her and he will not be able to live with that, even if it was done for the greater good. So, in that case he either takes his own life, or exiles himself somewhere, like the Wall. Which, I really dislike, as an idea.
      So, I hope that this task is appointed to someone else, ideally Arya. Even if Jon hates the throne and melts it down and doesn’t accept it, I just want him spared of the burden of that.
      That said, it all seems to develop so dark and bitter, it’s depressing!

      The only way to have something sweet would be to see Jon become King, given his story and how everything added up to his true identity for which so many died, and of course he came back from the dead for a good reason! It would be a natural conclusion for his arc, at the least and give a sense of fullfillment to the entire story.

      I’ve read some comments about Sansa/Gendry and etc taking the throne, but really that doesn’t add up to any arc, and especially to the arc for Jon, which if things turn out like that, loses all meaning and purpose.

      Anyway, however the story ends, whether we find it satisfying or not, this is it. The very last Game episode. I’ll try to enjoy it no matter what happens – and have lots of tissues ready!

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    244. I wonder if Bronn will do something with his crossbow? If Dany kills Tyrion, he won’t get his castle. So maybe he will be the one that kills Dany? But what about Drogon?

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    245. Renly’s Peach,

      More then half the city was in flames, with a population of 1 milion. It could be lower but then they need to show that a big part of KL is not burned.

      Netheb,

      He doesn’t want to lead anymore because it has bite him in the ass already 2 times. And he wasn’t happy when he lead.

      ShameShameShame,

      Yes but I’m wondering if for instance Tyrion will find that ring.

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    246. Well I’m going with Jon now has dragon fire immunity, which then makes Dany’s army respect and bow to his Godlike properties, as they felt about Dany after her demonstrations. Leaving her imminent assassination more palatable.

      And why not develop it after the fact? New traits after his rebirth can explain it, especially after the rebirthing of Dany’s armies, I should think acquiring fire immunity post-season 1 seems a simpler thing to conjure up. And, did anyone notice how close Jon was to dragon fire during WW battle? Drogon saved him from the undead rising and he didn’t burn though he seemed to be in the middle of all that fire dousing.

      In this scenario, Jon stays in KL (poor duty-bound creature!) and saves Westeros from chaos, while inventing social democracy (with capitalism checked so it doesn’t become another form of oppression and imperialism).

      Sansa gets the north, Tormund the other north, Sam the West… etc. but mostly, Arya decides she’s done being an assassin, and heads to Storms End. All the local leaders have a vote in the running of Westeros by council. More like how England’s Magna Carta… or whatever?… made it so King’s power was checked by representative governance.

      I hope I’m right at least once this season!

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    247. QueenofThrones: But Cersei’s prophecy in the show did come true, in every aspect.There was no subversion.She was literally cast down (red keep fell on her head due to Dany attacking it) and all she held dear at that moment was taken from her. Her life, her power, the throne, Jaime.

      Actually, no! I rewatched all seasons before S8 and had totally forgotten about Cersei’s firstborn, son of Robert, who dies of a fever while in infancy. Well I remembered she mentions it to Catelyn when she visits her and Bran after his “fall”, but somehow I thought her showing maternal concern and “sisterhood” was to head off suspicions. But a few episodes later she brings it up during that brilliant conversation with Robert and he knows just what she’s talking about. So that kid really did exist, and even though he died quickly, this is enough to invalidate the prophecy.

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    248. GOT might not be ending the way I wanted, but man I’m enjoying the ride. Not least, everyone’s theories and opinions. What an amazing show to create such engagement!

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    249. All the kingdoms:
      – Gendry Baratheon: Lord of the Stormlands
      – Sansa Stark: Lady of Winterfell, warden of the North
      – Robbin Arryn: Lord of the Vale
      – Tyrion Lannister: Lord of the Crownlands
      – Yara Greyjoy: Lady of the Iron Islands
      – Tormund Giantsbane: Lord of North beyond the wall (or whatever is left of it)
      – Edmure Tully: Lord of The Riverlands
      – Prince of Dorne
      – Samwell Tarly(/Bronn of The Blackwater): Lord of the Reach

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    250. wandering gal,

      That is my crack pot theory! Bronn kills Dany with the crossbow. I think it was season 5? That Jorah told her that she shouldn’t be near the combat because some peasant with a crossbow would see her silver hair and would try to become a hero.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

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    251. Chilli,

      I agree totally. This whole season I’ve thought it’s going back to seven kingdoms. The moral of the story is that too much power in the hands of a single person is the problem. Once they legitimized Gendry and mentioned a new prince of Dorne I was convinced. The wheel Dany breaks is the one created by her ancestors.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

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    252. Tyjon: if it doesn’t come to fruition they rage hate on the show for not meeting their expectations.

      Yeah, and they can’t get how Daenerys chose full destruction. (And *she* had a life-long purpose of conquering a throne!)
      Eventually, this story ends up being the best metaphor of tv corrupting audiences.
      Black. Cut to the team forum: “Now there is only one question left for next week episode: who will actually kill the Mad-Crowd ? ”

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    253. RG:
      I think Sansa has to be involved in whatever happens to Dany.
      She’s been a large part of Dany’s season-set up as more of a nemesis than Cersei tbh.
      Dany has brought her up on multiple occasions, including blaming her for Varys burning last episode. And more time has been spent filming the glaring going on between them than scenes with Sansa and Jon or Jon and Dany kissing combined.

      Arya’s reunion with Jon-most awaited reunion in the series-contained conversation about
      1. Their two swords
      2. Sansa, and how smart she is and Jon needing to remember that he’s her family too.

      Sophie says she kept a raven scroll that was a huge spoiler, and we haven’t seen it yet.

      Totally agree with this! I really think that Sansa has to be involved in what happens in KL with Danaerys. There has been way too much set-up done this season, for there not to be some sort of payoff. It would be a coming full circle of the story, too, if Dany is threatening to burn Starks alive (Jon/Arya or Sansa), just as her father did. Only this time, I’m hoping that the pack is better prepared, and survives. Also, still not ruling out that Tyrion is a secret Targ, and may be immune to dragon fire 😉

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    254. Chilli,

      Does anyone feel like Sansa could end up queen of the first men, queen in the north, queen of the trident and queen of the mountains. having her reign over the north , the riverland and the vale? i mean they have to be doing something with bronze royce still around right to be her hand maybe

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    255. Chilli:
      All the kingdoms:
      – Gendry Baratheon: Lord of the Stormlands
      – Sansa Stark: Lady of Winterfell, warden of the North
      – Robbin Arryn: Lord of the Vale
      – Tyrion Lannister: Lord of the Crownlands
      – Yara Greyjoy: Lady of the Iron Islands
      – Tormund Giantsbane: Lord of North beyond the wall (or whatever is left of it)
      – Edmure Tully: Lord of The Riverlands
      – Prince of Dorne
      – Samwell Tarly(/Bronn of The Blackwater): Lord of the Reach

      And how do the history books refer to Dany at the end?
      Daenerys Targaryen, 1st of her name, Mother of Dragons, commonly known as Daenerys the Destroyer?

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    256. Stew,

      Only if Jon is killed or steps down. I thought Sansa would be the ‘power’ in the North after Jon bent the knee but it seems as though they are still following him. She could have stopped the armies if she wanted to (would have caused major issues, of course) but it still seems that they follow Jon.

      I also wondered about Lord Royce but so far there hasn’t been any sort of pay-off.

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    257. Nick Hartley: Bronn kills Dany with the crossbow.

      That’s not a crackpot theory. It may not pan out — but it is definitely not a crackpot theory.

      The three main POV characters who are motivated to kill Daenerys are Jon, Arya, and Tyrion. Jon and Arya can do the deed on their own. Tyrion would likely need help and would turn to the man who needs a castle – and won’t be getting one if The Mad Queen remains on the throne, as the current (former?) Hand of the Queen is on the outs with the about to be current administration,..

      Other Darkhorse Assassins include Ser Davos and Lord Gendry.

      Obviously, they can’t all be right – and most by definition won’t be. But that does not make any of the more obvious ones a crackpot theory.

      Someone is killing her. Bronn has a motive and a weapon we’ve been shown. He’s originally from KL and is no fan of the Mas Queen at this point either. Definitely not a crackpot theory.

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    258. Ser Whatever: and even though he died quickly, this is enough to invalidate the prophecy.

      A babe in Westeros that does not live long enough to receive a name is not a “person” in that fantasy kingdom. (Name Day – 1 year old in the South – even older north of the Wall). With such a high mortality rate among infants, they don’t share the same view as we do as to when a baby becomes a person. They simply don’t want to get attached to a child that is probably going to die. Name Days are the method they use to inhibit/prevent that. Name Days matter in such a society.

      So, no, prophecy still intact.

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    259. Ben Handley: I know it won’t happen, but would love to see a scene where Dany orders Drogon to burn Jon and he refuses, lol

      Hey – It might well happen. The creepy stare Drogon gave Jon is s8 Ep 1 may well have meaning with a payoff in the finale. That would signal to Jon clearly and unambiguously and would hopefully absolve him of any duty to follow “his Queen” . It would certainly be the clearest and easiest way to show that on camera — and with great dramatic effect in about all of 5 seconds. Sounds like an appropriate device for the television medium to me.

      As for whether this will/won’t happen? Who knows? But it’s not a crackpot theory, at all. It is far likelier than Jon being shown to be immune to dragon fire, for example.

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    260. Emily: Someone like Gendry just isn’t on Sansa’s radar – he’s a simpleton and he’s in love with her sister, of all people. I think Sansa ultimately chooses to be alone.

      Sansa would marry Gendry not because she cares for him, but because it would make her the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms in a Targaryen less Westeros.

      So yes, she absolutely would choose to do that. Love’s got nothing to do with it. He seems nice enough, attractive enough, and her children will rule and the North will be kept safe. Arya doesn’t want him.

      Most importantly, Gendry will listen to Sansa and do what she tells him to do. Indeed, he NEEDS the help and if Sansa does not marry him, the Seven Kingdoms might plunge into war again. She would be THE Queen and true ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.

      I have a horse in this race: I am predicting King Gendry and Queen Sansa as the ending, by the way. With Tyrion as Hand of the King if he lives. In order for that to happen under the Law of Succession, two things need to happen:

      1 – Daenerys dies (I think that’s a lock)
      2 – Jon dies or turns down the Throne (I think one of those two is also close to a given)

      So yeah, I’d put King Gendry and Queen Sansa at the top of the odds list to end the series.

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    261. AlvWaynwood,

      The finale will be devastating and I’m preparing to drink heavily throughout. I doubt that all of the Unsullied/Dothraki went north. I imagine she left some behind at Dragonstone to guard it.

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    262. Steel_Wind: Hey – It might well happen. The creepy stare Drogon gave Jon is s8 Ep 1 may well have meaning with a payoff in the finale. That would signal to Jon clearly and unambiguously and would hopefully absolve him of any duty to follow “his Queen” . It would certainly be the clearest and easiest way to show that on camera —and with great dramatic effect in about all of 5 seconds. Sounds like an appropriate device for the television medium to me.

      As for whether this will/won’t happen? Who knows? But it’s not a crackpot theory, at all. It is far likelier than Jon being shown to be immune to dragon fire, for example.

      Dragon fire aside, if they don’t show Jon turn against Dany after what she just did to King’s Landing’s innocent civilians, if that doesn’t absolve him of any duty he feels to ‘his queen’ then all is lost for his character and I hope Dragon does indeed burn him. Jon actually gave his life to save wildlings, his enemy, to stop the needless slaughter of ‘innocent’ people. If he stands by while scores more King’s Landingers are butchered and this isn’t enough to make him see Dany for what she is, then truly, the ending to his character arc will have been the saddest for me.

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    263. Steel_Wind,

      I also wouldn’t mind seeing if even for a short time Bran warg into Drogon. I know it’s a bit cheesy, but I’d like Bran to do something this season besides be bait and tell people things they already know they said.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

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    264. Ok, sure, maybe Sansa can be with Gendry now that Arya rejected him. That’ll do. Still Baratheon/Stark union. And Tyrion is then safe to be smart again, I guess.

      Until the season started and the sparks flew with Arya, I had predicted Sansa with Gendry. She needs to have babies as Bran, Jon and Arya don’t seem interested. It also seemed possible to by Tyrion for her. And that’s not bad choice either, but I don’t know what middle ages thought of dwarf parents.

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    265. Tycho Nestoris: Is your point that Daenerys won’t kill Jon because she “loves” him?

      No offense. This has argument no basis in any reality. People kill people they “love” quite often and it’s been done literally in the show before too (Stannis).

      No basis in reality?

      Seriously?

      Just because there are people that sometimes kill the ones they love, that’s no reason at all to think that loving someone is not a good reason someone wouldn’t be able to kill them.

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    266. Netheb,

      LOL, yeah, after what Daenerys did, I’m sure everyone will be very eager to put another Targaryen on the throne. Not only that, let him marry and have kids so that his madness-ridden Targaryen genes can be passed on to future generations!

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    267. Steel_Wind,

      I just don’t see Jon turning down the throne and duty at this point. He didn’t press his claim earlier because a) he believed in Daenerys and b) he didn’t want it. Now reason A is scratched and there really isn’t any better option. Every time he has been chosen for leadership (NW and KotN) he has accepted. I see the same happening here. Somebody gets rid of Daenerys and the remaining lords and ladys turn to Jon. It isn’t in his nature to turn his back on his friends and family, especially in a time of need, which this definitely will be.

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    268. Lunaselene:
      Netheb,

      LOL, yeah, after what Daenerys did, I’m sure everyone will be very eager to put another Targaryen on the throne. Not only that, let him marry and have kids so that his madness-ridden Targaryen genes can be passed on to future generations!

      Except Jon/Aegon isn’t full blood Targaryen. He is half Targ and half Stark and the leaders of the other kingdoms know this. He and Tyrion are the only two left with any real leadership experience. Gendry has none and although Sansa was very good at being Lady of Winterfell, I’m not sure the rest of the kingdom would see her as a viable alternative.

      Then again this is a fictional story, so they could do anything they want. It just seems to me that GRRM has more in mind for Jon’s story than defeating the others and causing Daenerys’ madness.

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    269. King in the North East,

      I gotta give you credit for how well you twisted what I wrote and ignored the context. The other commenter was the one who wrote that love explicitly meant she could’t kill Jon. I merely wrote that loves does prevent murder. Which you actually conceded in your reply.

      You also conveniently left out the last paragraph where I wrote Daenerys cares more about the Iron Throne than she “loves” Jon. I wonder if it negated your bad faith argument so you just ignored it?

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    270. Lunaselene,

      I would have to agree. I can’t see Jon taking the throne because no one is going to want another Targaryen on the throne after what Dany did.

      Plus, I just have a hard time seeing Jon sitting on a throne attending appointment after appointment. It’s not him.

      I can see Sansa and even Bran in that role more than I can envision Jon. They’ve shown Sansa to be a leader of Winterfell in the last couple of seasons and Bran already has experience taking appointments while Cat and Rob were gone in season 2.

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    271. Tycho Nestoris,

      I was about to apologize, but then I reread the conversation.

      Tycho Nestoris: The other commenter was the one who wrote that love explicitly meant she could’t kill Jon.

      Maybe I’m missing something, but I couldn’t find that part anywhere.

      All he said was that she might not have done it because she loves him. I don’t see how he meant that she couldn’t.

      You asked why not immediately kill Jon.

      He replied because he loves her.

      I don’t see a conflict here. It could be the case.

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    272. Raenarys,

      Jon didn’t want to have seks with Dany, but not only because they’re related. There was no wild Targseks in s8, not a single moment where Jon looks happy or shares of himself.

      Lunaselene:
      Netheb, after what Daenerys did, I’m sure everyone will be very eager to put another Targaryen on the throne. Not only that, let him marry and have kids so that his madness-ridden Targaryen genes can be passed on to future generations!

      Jon will stay a Snow or become a Stark, but will never be a Targaryen. And if he gets to rule, that will be because the Lords will give him their support. A name only wouldn’t be enough, not after the Dragon queen.

      kevin1989:
      Netheb, He doesn’t want to lead anymore because it has bite him in the ass already 2 times. And he wasn’t happy when he lead.

      What’s the second time? He was happy in the North at the beginning of s7, if you forget the fact that the AotD ate away at him.

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    273. JSchmeh,

      Sansa would have plenty of support. The North, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Reach, the Riverlands and probably even the Westerlands now that Tyrion is technically Lord of Casterly Rock.

      The only question marks are Yara, who I believe would side with Sansa considering Theon’s bond with the Starks, and once she hears Dany’s army horrible things she once lectured Yara against, and whoever the new Dornish Prince is.

      Gendry has Davos, and would be very popular among the common people. Robert was never hated by the common folk, I think they’d welcome his son after the hell of the Lannisters and Dany.

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    274. Mr Derp: I just have a hard time seeing Jon sitting on a throne attending appointment after appointment.It’s not him.

      Yes, attending meetings, planning ahead and thinking of the details is more Sansa’s forte. But like many she has shortcomings, which include inspiring people, being a hero and leading men. Guess who could fill that in 😉

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    275. ShameShameShame,

      Yeah, assuming that Jon steps aside. Which I can’t see happening. I agree if Jon is dead or does step aside, then yes Sansa is probably the likely go to. But as I said, I really don’t think it is in Jon’s character to turn down leadership when asked or nominated. I think if it was going to be Sansa or Gendry, we would have seen more people lining up behind them. As of right now, we have seen two camps forming. Everyone one is either behind Daenerys or Jon.

      Don’t forget Jon turned his back on his true love for duty. He left Yigrette because of his honor and his sense of duty to his brothers in the night’s watch. I really don’t see him turning his back on his family and friends at this point in his life.

      I probably have my hopes too much in Jon being the savior, for a show like this.

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    276. I think if Jon lives, he is probably going to wind up as king. The show’s portrayal of him made me think that was impossible, but it’s clear that they simply failed in that regard. By not wanting Jon to be perfect and seem like the obvious eventual king, they went too far in the other direction of turning him into a dolt whose two redeeming qualities were that he was brave and kind.

      Just going by the books, Jon was always the most likely endgame king, IMO. His assassination was the only thing that ever made me doubt it. And it still makes me question it. But at this point, he really is the only option, given the amount of time left in the show.

      Gendry is a non-entity in the books, as far as inheritance goes. He more or less has absorbed Edric Storm’s role in the show.

      The only other realistic scenario is Sansa and Tyrion. I’m assuming Tyrion would be considered Cersei’s heir. Still, it’s clear that if Jon lives, he will be king. He wouldn’t refuse what he would see as his duty, IMO.

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    277. JSchmeh,

      I’m afraid it’s not in the cards for Jon to be the King.

      If he didn’t want to create a bastard, imagine what he thinks about creating a monster? If he doesn’t die, he’ll insist on exiling himself, or worse.

      I think it will be Gendry, I should make that clear, he has the solid claim. But Sansa is the perfect partner for him, even if it’s just implied at the end.

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    278. Netheb: Yes, attending meetings, planning ahead and thinking of the details is more Sansa’s forte. But like many she has shortcomings, which include inspiring people, being a hero and leading men. Guess who could fill that in 😉

      Kings don’t usually play the hero once they are king though. They’re considered too important to actually fight in battle. That would kind of neutralize what he’s best at.

      Even still, if he was going to lead armies and play a hero, he’s still a Targaryen. He’ll never be able to get that stink off of him after what Dany did. I think Jon goes back up North, where he belongs. Maybe Tormund and he can adopt more direwolves with Ghost and start an iditarod team or something 😉

      I don’t think he’d make a good king anyway. Sure, he doesn’t want the throne, he’s just, and relatively kind. However, he’s easily manipulated. Think back to what Sansa said about Jon following Dany because he loves her, not because it’s what’s best for the North. Jon was also naive enough to think that telling Sansa the truth about his parentage wouldn’t cause any problems. He’s just too naive and trusting to be a good king, IMO. He’d be taken advantage of.

      Lastly, I just don’t see the Sansa/Jon pairing happening at all. The show’s made it clear that Jon is not comfortable having a relationship with his aunt. I doubt it would be any different with his cousin.

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    279. King in the North East,

      Tycho Nestoris: love does not prevent murder
      KitNE: Never? I highly doubt that.

      I didn’t write or imply “never”. Is my English broken?

      Love does not always prevent murder. Is that better? That’s all I mean. Based on the shortness of Renly’s reply, I assumed Renly’s point was Daenerys will never kill Jon (immediately or otherwise) because of love. Perhaps that assumption was wrong? IDK, Renly has not yet replied.

      My argument is around Daenerys’ actions. We all agree she wants the throne. We all agree she is ruthless. The idea that “love” of Jon (imo a strictly physical attraction in this case) trumps her aspirations and ferocity is just not satisfactory. It uses Daenerys’ “evil” to put her in power and then uses her “tender heart” to queue her downfall. I won’t call it sexist but it is def a stereotype projected onto women. I find it an extremely lame way to weaken Daenerys and it’s done so in direct contrast to the actions the character has made previously.

      How many times in either medium does Daenerys sacrifice her emotions and feelings to get closer to the Iron Throne? Too many to name. To then drop the throne itself for some guy she just met, who also just so happens to be her only political rival, is another heel turn. It’s jarringly poor writing and I really hope it doesn’t happen.

      I know for certain the show presented Daenerys’ desire for the Iron Throne to be far greater than her “love” of Jon (as recently as last episode this was presented).

      Even if love always prevented murder it wouldn’t matter here because the show has done very little to nurture Daenerys’ love of Jon. I would argue that their relationship was rushed (in terms of the character’s decisions) and almost entirely physical. If given the choice b/t the Iron Throne and Jon, Daenerys chooses the Iron Throne every time. Her actions should reflect that.

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    280. Mr Derp,

      I’m not sure there is anyone who has all the skills for being a good ruler. Perhaps that is the whole point and in the end we will get this fabled council of people with the combined skills to rule.

      One thing Jon would certainly be good at is unifying the disparate kingdoms. Was-ravaged, in the brink of starvation in many places, they need each other to survive the winter. The one character with the greatest track record in this regard is Jon. He inspired loyalty through his honourable act when he granted baby Ned Umber and Alyss Karstark their holdings and titles. Sansa urged him not to, but it proved to be the right move that resonated with the northerners, who cheered raucously when Ned and Alyss pledged themselves to Jon. He is learning (slowly, he and Sansa have that in common!) how to get people to be loyal to him instead of stabbing him in the heart. His ability to inspire loyalty (possibly through his own loyalty and his rigid honesty) and his ability to unify certainly mean that he has a good chance at being the king they need in this healing period following years of war, at a time when the kingdoms need to be brought together in the greater good of everyone making it through the winter.

      He isn’t a perfect candidate, but then again, I don’t think any of them are. If they all work together they might not hash everything up again.

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    281. ShameShameShame,

      I see it as he will see it as his duty to pick up the pieces after what Dany has done. Yes, he may blame himself initially, but I think people will talk him out of that view. I really don’t see the remaining characters rallying around anyone other than Jon. He really has been the only character that has inspired love and devotion from others at this point in the story. I know people think Sansa wants the throne and power, but I don’t see that at all. I think all she wanted was to protect her family and the North. What better way to do that than back Jon and make sure he sits on the throne.

      We can absolutely agree to disagree. I enjoy civilized reasoned discussions. That is why this is the only GOT I still visit. Most everyone here is rational and civilized. The good thing is we have only 3 days to wait, then we can debate the ending.

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    282. Che,

      I don’t think there will be an iron throne in the end. I also don’t think Westeros will be a democracy yet either. It’s a bit too much of a quantum leap to go from a monarchy to a democracy in one episode.

      I think there will be a small council of sorts, with at least one representative from each of the Seven Kingdoms. That’s how Dany will break the wheel, albeit inadvertently. I suppose Jon could fill that role for the North, but if there is a small council of sorts then Sansa would make more sense as the person representing the North over Jon, IMO.

      I’m also not sure how much he would be able to bring the Seven Kingdoms together at this point anyway now that his lineage is associated with the “mad” Targaryens. I don’t think anyone will want anything to do with a Targaryen after Dany’s reign.

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    283. Mr Derp,

      Maybe it’s just a shitty portrayal of the character in the show that gives you this impression? Because most of ADWD was Jon being in a leadership position. He had meetings with other leaders. He makes a deal with the Iron Bank to bring food from across the Narrow Sea to sustain the Watch through winter. He gives Stannis political and tactical advice. He orders Sam to go to Oldtown and become a maester. He threatens Gilly and makes her swap her baby with Mance’s son. He arranged a political marriage between Alys Karstark and a Thenn. He starts rebuilding the other castles on the Wall and manning them with Wildlings.

      It’s only in the show where he is portrayed as passive and having no desire to rule/lead.

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    284. Mr Derp,

      The ending for the show is supposedly the same as the books, right? So your concerns about the character not being a good king or having the desire or knowledge to be a good king would not fit the book character. It’s my contention that the show just massively screwed up his portrayal. Simply being brave and kind is enough to inspire loyalty and make him a worthy ruler in D&D’s minds.

      I’m not saying he winds up as king, he still has an equal or greater chance of dying, but if he does live, it would not fit the character to neglect his duty and foist it on his sister or some guy who probably can’t even read(Gendry) and is in no way prepared to be king, much less the Lord of a great House.

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    285. In a perfect world, I would vote Jon for king.
      Man has been betrayed as a character in every possible way and still managed to keep his moral compass on the right heading.

      Jeor, Aemon, Stannis, Davos, Mance, Tyrion, Sam all saw greatness in him. And he was a good brother, a good man, a good LC who did his best to save as many people as he could. He was also the love child of the true heir to the throne and a Stark-merging North and South in a way that they’ve tried to do throughout the history of Westeros.
      Pact of Ice and Fire etc.

      His brothers betrayed him, but he was right about saving the Wildlings
      His sister-despite arguments to the contrary-betrayed his trust on multiple occasions, usually to the detriment of him and causing unnecessary casualties. (sorry but its true)
      But he still protects her and supports her and accepts her input when he can.

      Sam and Bran pushed something on him he didn’t want
      Varys tried to do the same
      Still despite what Dany believed, he didn’t betray her.
      But now she’s betrayed his trust in her-and all the times he defended her-in one fiery swoop.

      He’s the only one in the series whose basic character trait is bringing people together. Not scheming, not survival, not personal gain, but compromise and compassion. Finding common ground. It was why, as I said before, I always thought his Targ name would be Jaehaerys.

      Do I disagree with most of the decisions they’ve made for his character this season and total lack of dialogue apart from “I don’t want it” and “You’re my queen” ?
      Hell yes.
      Do I know that he’s tired and he doesn’t want it and people have hurt him so much he’d rather hang out in the snow with crazy Tormund? Yes.
      But do I still think he would be the one to break the wheel and create a system that everyone can benefit from?
      He’d die trying.

      Which is why it probably won’t happen.

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    286. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      We shall see in a few days 🙂

      I don’t think Tormund dropped those lines about Jon belonging in the real North for nothing, but YMMV.

      Tormund: “I’m taking the Free Folk home. We’ve had enough of the south. The women down here don’t like me.”

      Jon: “This is the North, you know. And the Free Folk are welcome to stay.”

      Tormund: “It isn’t home. We need room to wander. I’ll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass. Back where we belong.”

      Jon: “It’s where he belongs too. A direwolf has no place in the south. Will you take him with you? He’ll be happier up there.”

      Tormund: “So would you.”

      Jon: “I wish I was going with you. This is farewell, then.”

      Tormund: “You never know. You’ve got the North in you. The real North.”

      Now this could be a conversation that ends up being meaningless in the end, but I don’t think so.

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    287. Mr Derp,

      Jon may be a Targaryen but he has something Dany never had: the love and respect of the people. If he gets to rule, that will be because the Lords will give him their support, not because of a name.
      Anyway, I don’t think he’s that naive anymore. I believe in the political!Jon theory, which explains why he’s been so closed to Dany, why he doesn’t really speak warmly of her, why he barely reacts when she threatens his family, why he’s so passive when she fried her own advisor.
      Jon is afraid of Danerys but he played along the romance because, as he keeps repeating, they needed her against the AotD. Now that they’re gone, he’s stuck with this relationship with no exit strategy. He knows what Dany would do to those she thinks betrayed her.

      Even if Jon doesn’t get to rule, there’s no way he’ll stay beyond the wall for the rest of his days. He will perhaps need to brood alone for a time, but there’s nothing there for him. He’s a family man, he wants to stay with his pack and maybe start one of his own. His conversation with Tormund was, imo, a reminder for the audience that Jon would never choose to live elsewhere than his home.

      Annnd lastly, for the reasons I explained above, it’s not because Dany is his aunt that Jon is uncomfortable with the relationship. 😉 and we’ve had quite a lot of clues hinting at a Jon/Sansa endgame ever since season 6.

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    288. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Mr Derp,

      I’m not saying he winds up as king, he still has an equal or greater chance of dying, but if he does live, it would not fit the character to neglect his duty and foist it on his sister or some guy who probably can’t even read(Gendry) and is in no way prepared to be king, much less the Lord of a great House.

      Unless they’re going full Frodo with Jon.
      He alerts world to great danger, makes sacrifice after sacrifice, and takes off at the end because he’s basically dead inside while his friends and family are free to live in the new, though devastated world.

      I’m not a fan of that ending for him-see previous post, but I’d rather he end up with Ghost than being completely no-coming-back-this-time dead.

      Oh and yeah. I would be so upset with a Sansa and Gendry marriage/throne ending. In no way is anyone happy in that scenario. I just want someone to be happy.
      Other than Sam-no offense Sam, I love ya, but come on.

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    289. Netheb: Annnd lastly, for the reasons I explained above, it’s not because Dany was his aunt that Jon is uncomfortable with the relationship. 😉 and we’ve had quite a lot of clues hinting at Jon/Sansa ever since season 6.

      It actually IS because they’re related that Jon isn’t able to continue the relationship with Dany. I think the show has been pretty clear on that. Jon continued to bend the knee to her after the reveal, so it’s not like he broke off the entire relationship with her. And it’s not like he’s holding back on sex because Dany and Sansa aren’t getting along or something like that. He just can’t get himself to have sex with her anymore because they are related.

      Based on that, I don’t know how anyone could support the idea that Jon and Sansa will be a thing. It makes no sense whatsoever.

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    290. Mr Derp: Based on that, I don’t know how anyone could support the idea that Jon and Sansa will be a thing.It makes no sense whatsoever.

      Yes! Thank you lol

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    291. Mr Derp,

      Did you actually read anything of what I wrote before the section you quoted, ie why Jon was never really in love with Dany? Doesn’t seem like it.

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    292. Netheb,

      Yes, I read it. You think Jon was using her to get her to fight the AOTD and now that it’s over he doesn’t want her anymore.

      The problem with that is the show has gone out of its way to be clear that Jon and Dany love each other.

      The other problem is that their relationship started going sour right before the Long Night happened, so if Jon was in a relationship with her for that specific purpose, he probably should’ve waited until the fight was over to reveal the truth to her.

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    293. Mr Derp,

      While it’s a nice idea for an ending that involves breaking the wheel and is a step away from absolute monarchy, it does leave the audience in the inevitable position of wondering how the hell it was all going to work out in the end. I know the books ending is supposed to be the same for the main characters and it’s also pretty much a given Martin will give us some kind of epilogue or appendix that explains how the aftermath went (he hates that he doesn’t know how Aragorn’s rule of Gondor went). However, even in the show verse, are we to believe that Sansa, Tyrion, Robyn, Gendry, Quentyn (who knows?), Sam and Edmure are all just going to get along and make the kingdom a better place? Like hell they will. The intelligent ones (Tyrion, Sansa and Sam) will all have their own ideas about how to help the people recover after the shitstorm that has been endlessly raining down on them for like 7 years. Sansa will be cold but pragmatic, Sam will be too sensitive and not decisive in decisions, Tyrion may make some controversial decisions that Westeros isn’t ready for yet. All the while, the less intelligent ones (Gendry, Robyn, Edmure, Quentyn placeholder *if he’s anything like his book counterpart*)) may build alliances between themselves to try to overpower the more intelligent ones in discussions/debates/votes. Everyone starts playing each other off against one another and the whole sordid game of thrones starts again (in which case Sansa will just win because she learnt from the best). At least with a monarch in the picture (but maybe not in absolute control), someone fair, just, interested in bringing people together, deserving of loyalty and fealty, I can see it all working. Should such a council form, a photo-government if you will, it could work beautifully alongside a king, who is no longer an absolute monarch, but perhaps a step below. Someone who works in tandem with the council.

      Another point is that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of lords in Westeros (though we rarely see them – read one chapter of Fire and Blood and your head will be swimming with their endless names for days). Varys wasn’t joking, they are going to need their support if whatever it is that they come up with is to be a success. The 7 respective leaders of their respective kingdoms don’t hold much sway with their lords.
      Tyrion – Their bigotry can’t see past his dwarf status (nor his whoring), he is a kinslayer (a grave sin in Westeros), they think he’s a kingslayer, and he was Dany the Destroyer’s hand.
      Sansa – Though it sucks that this stands against her, but, she’s a woman. Of all them, she is probably the most respected and loved by her own lords because she has ruled ably and is Ned’s daughter. However, that won’t hold much sway with others in the other kingdoms.
      Robyn – He may have respect (if you can call it that) from his own lords, but he’s a twerp and everyone sees it, none of the lords outside the Vale respects him.
      Gendry – An exceedingly low-born bastard of unproven descent (Robert never acknowledged him and it’ll be a while before DNA testing reaches Westeros) who was legitimised by the Mad Queen of all people. He is going to struggle with his own lords, let alone command respect with the rest of the kingdoms’ nobility.
      Sam – He has betrayed his night’s watch vows, is a failed would-be-maester and is married to a wildling. He will struggle with his own lords, not to mention others.
      Quentyn – who knows; he must be some distant relation, or just some kid they grabbed off the street, seeing as we haven’t heard of him.
      Edmure – he was hated, or at the very least mocked, by his own bannermen before. How are they going to feel now he betrayed their legend, the Blackfish, betrayed his own soldiers and has been a prisoner for years in a Frey dungeon. He will have a battle on his hands at home in the Riverlands before he can even cast his sights wider to command respect with the other lords.

      And then there’s the smallfolk, whom outnumber the nobility ludicrously so and may have just reached their limit with how much pain, death and destruction they can handle. If the lords are going to struggle with these 7 leaders, they aren’t going to fare much better with the non-nobility. None of them have been shown to inspire the loyalty or devotion of the small folk. None of them. They are going to need someone who inspires loyalty, who inspires trust; someone they know to be good, just and kind. Someone who will fight for their best interests; someone who gave his life to save wildlings (the only people in Westeros the very lowest classes of smallfolk feel stationed above) – if he cared about wildlings, surely he cares about absolutely everyone? Having a figurehead whom the people of Westeros love and admire would be a massive benefit for a new, reformed small council – their poster boy as well as their mediator.

      Any ending D&D give us will be GRRM’s ending, but tailored to the TV medium. Any ending will leave us wondering how long the peace lasted till another civil war broke out. Only in the books will we get a satisfying ending that doesn’t leave us making up our own fantasies or horror stories about what transpired as soon as those final credits roll. And this isn’t a dig at D&D; it’s just the weakness of this medium.

      Sorry to write such an enormous post!!! The thoughts just kept coming.

      *And for the record, this is a highly hypothetical exploration of thoughts seeing as I am 99% sure Jon will die on Sunday*

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    294. Netheb: It’s because he despises and fears Dany that Jon was such a bad boyfriend. He and Sansa have shared many tender moments before.

      Jon has never despised Dany until she burned KL to the ground and even then we haven’t yet seen how he’ll react when he speaks to her.

      Besides, Jon has shared many tender moments with other characters besides Sansa such as Sam and Arya, but I don’t think that means Jon and Sam or Jon and Arya will get together.

      Also, Sansa and Jon have indeed shared some tender moments, but they’ve argued more often than not. It certainly doesn’t seem like love is in the air there for that reason as well as the reasons that I stated above. If Jon can’t get himself to be with Dany because they are related then it makes no sense for Jon to suddenly accept being with Sansa.

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    295. Mr Derp,

      “Clear that Jon and Dany love each other”??

      Sorry, I don’t want to sound biased but I’ve seen absolutely nothing from Jon’s side. Dany tries repeatedly to get him to open up with no result. He always avoids flirting back (and Jon knows how to do it), and even when he says the L word in 8.05, surprise surprise, that was right after Dany threatened his family again.
      He’s telling her exactly what she wants to hear, in order to mollify her. Every Jon/Dany scene ever since they met is about a power struggle. Not about love.

      “He probably should’ve waited until the fight was over to reveal the truth to her”?

      Do you actually believe that if Jon told Dany he doesn’t want her, she would have been okay with that? No one walks out on the Dragon queen. Varys learned that at his own expense.

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    296. Kevin1989,

      No please, check again before stating something. He told Dany he didn’t enjoy what he was good at. You could say it’s vague but it’s clearly implied that what he’s good at is fighting. And he’s tired of fighting. They were not talking about ruling at all.

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    297. Netheb: Sorry, I don’t want to sound biased but I’ve seen absolutely nothing from Jon’s side. Dany tries repeatedly to get him to open up with no result. He always avoids flirting back (and Jon knows how to do it), and even when he says the L word in 8.05, surprise surprise, that was right after Dany threatened his family again.
      He’s telling her exactly what she wants to hear, in order to mollify her. Every Jon/Dany scene ever since they met is about a power struggle. Not about love.

      There is nothing in the show to back up what you are saying though.

      You speak as though Jon has some master plan in mind. Too bad the show has never treated Jon as a willing and skilled player in the game instead of someone who’s always truthful to a fault.

      If Jon has a master plan in mind to manipulate Dany, what is it exactly? To make it clear that he doesn’t want her anymore, but continue to call her his Queen for….what purpose exactly? To sit idly by as she destroys KL? If this is a Dany/Jon power struggle then Jon is doing a pretty piss poor job. How many thousands of people died last episode as part of Jon master plan?

      Netheb: “He probably should’ve waited until the fight was over to reveal the truth to her”?

      Do you actually believe that if Jon told Dany he doesn’t want her, she would have been okay with that? No one walks out on the Dragon queen. Varys learned that at his own expense.

      When I said “reveal the truth”, I meant the truth about his parentage. If he was trying to “mollify” Dany only to get her to fight the AOTD with him then this is pretty much the opposite thing he should say and do.

      Additionally, Dany was willing to ally with Jon to fight the AOTD BEFORE they had sex.

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    298. Mr Derp:
      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      We shall see in a few days 🙂

      I don’t think Tormund dropped those lines about Jon belonging in the real North for nothing, but YMMV.

      Tormund: “I’m taking the Free Folk home.We’ve had enough of the south.The women down here don’t like me.”

      Jon: “This is the North, you know.And the Free Folk are welcome to stay.”

      Tormund: “It isn’t home.We need room to wander.I’ll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.Back where we belong.”

      Jon: “It’s where he belongs too.A direwolf has no place in the south.Will you take him with you? He’ll be happier up there.”

      Tormund: “So would you.”

      Jon: “I wish I was going with you.This is farewell, then.”

      Tormund: “You never know.You’ve got the North in you.The real North.”

      Now this could be a conversation that ends up being meaningless in the end, but I don’t think so.

      I had to rewatch this scene https://youtu.be/5Isq9hl7Tz8
      after reading your post.

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    299. Tycho Nestoris,

      Thank you for falling into my carefully laid trap there. I was hoping you’d take the bait.

      You are completely right, you didn’t say love never prevents murder.

      That’s absolutely true.

      So if you understand this, how could you possibly have turned Renly’s Peach’s answer “because she loves him” into “love explicitly meant she could’t kill Jon”?

      He NEVER said love would stop her if she really wanted to kill him, he just gave a possible reason as to why she hasn’t yet.

      You did the exact same thing you’re now very arrogantly deriding me for (assuming context that’s not explicitly stated).

      So kindly get off your high horse.

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    300. Steel_Wind,

      ShameShameShame,
      You are forgetting Gendry. Sure, as I said, Sansa/Gendry is not totally out of the picture in general.

      Sansa might consider marrying Gendry. But there isn’t a whole lot of merit to “he deserves a lady”. Why would he want to be with Sansa? The sister of the woman he loves? This would feel too weird for me. Besides, that was the case even before S8, and Gendry falling in love with Arya.

      Gendry/Sansa has a lower chance of happening than Arya having an unconventional relationship with Gendry after choosing life in S8E5 (because nothing specific was set up for Sansa/Gendry). And that Gendry/Arya scenario gets, at the most, a 50% chance of happening from me.

      In an interview Joe Demspie said in regards to Gendry, it wasn’t about the title or the lands. He was happy about getting legitimized. He could do without the rest.

      Btw. Sansa’s story arc could end without a husband or with Tyrion or the Prince of Dorne (but that is not set up or likely either). Just because a character “deserves” something doesn’t mean he or she gets it. I thought GoT made that pretty clear.

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    301. Mr Derp,

      I just wrote the longest response only to have it swallowed by the ether when I pressed ‘post comment’. I shall try to recreate it, as I kept thinking of more and more reasons as to why a council of this sort would not be able to work in the Westeros we know. I’ll see if I can remember them. It came down to three big reasons for me.

      1. Failings within the council.

      A governing council made up of the leaders of the 7 kingdoms would, we can presume, include (I have no idea why I have 8…is Highgarden not a kingdom?):

      – Sansa
      – Tyrion
      – Edmure
      – Robyn
      – Sam (or maybe even Bronn!?)
      – Yara
      – Dornish Prince – who knows, let’s call him Quentyn
      – Gendry

      Can you imagine this group of individuals agreeing on anything? The more intelligent (Tyrion, Sansa, Sam, Yara) would disagree on the right courses of action to rebuild the kingdoms, conjure food for the masses to last them through winter and get the country running again. Sansa would probably be pragmatic, but may be callous, cold and misunderstand the mindsets of the lords of Westeros. Sam would most likely have some good ideas, but would utterly struggle to stand up for himself and would be batted down by more outspoken members of the council. Tyrion may be too unconventional in his plans. I don’t know enough about Yara to imagine what she’d be like in this scenario if truth be told. What is certain is they would never all agree. Then you have the less intelligent members (Robyn, Gendry and Edmure, Quentyn, if he’s anything like his namesake), who may be easily bribed to ally with other members of the council, or form a belligerent bloc that is difficult to reason with. What I think seems certain is that they would be impotent when it came to deciding on courses of action or implementing plans. They would soon fall to infighting, backstabbing and the whole Game of Thrones begins anew – except this is a the Game of Council Chairs and Sansa would undoubtedly win. Another slight side note – how many of these people actually have any experience of leading successfully? How do we know they’d actually be any good? Robyn…Edmure?!!

      Who might offer a stabilising nature to this proto-government? A measured, just, fair king of course. Jon made allies out of mortal enemies – he could be a peacemaker in this council too. With Jon as a separate entity, called in to sort out disputes, called in to agree on decisions made by the council, called in to sort out disputes when high lords come running to complain about actions taken by the council, it may just work. The members of the council are going to need the lords of Westeros and this brings me on to my next point.

      2. Terrible PR with the Lords of Westeros

      Though we rarely see them in the show, Westeros is awash with noble houses. Read one chapter of Fire and Blood and their names will swash around in your head for days. And Varys is… sorry… was utterly correct – they need the lords of Westeros on their side. Let’s have a look at how the seven (*ahem* eight?!) leaders of the kingdoms fare in this department.

      Sansa – may have respect from the northern lords after her more-than-successful turn as Lady of Winterfell, but the sad and regrettable fact is that misogyny seems to be the norm in Westeros and noble lords outside of the North may not respect Sansa’s position in the council.

      Yara – Ditto on being female. She has the support of her own lords it’s true, but the Ironborn are also pretty despised across the rest of Westeros and they may take issue with her for this reason as well.

      Tyrion – In the eyes of the lords of Westeros, Tyrion is twice a kinslayer (one of their gravest sins), a kingslayer and, seeing as they’re on a roll with their disgusting judgemental bigotry, he’s also a dwarf. Not to mention that unfortunate business of helping bring Dany the Destroyer to Westeros as her Hand. Tyrion will have trouble getting his own lords to rally around him, let alone the rest of the kingdom’s nobility.

      Sam – He is an oathbreaker, a failed would-be-maester and he is married to a wildling. He will struggle to get his own lords to respect him, let alone the rest of the kingdom.

      Quentyn stand-in – Honestly, who knows. He’s a nobody. He may be the next Oberyn, in which case WOOO! Day saved! More likely he’s just a nobody.

      Robyn – His own lords put up with him, but I doubt they respect him. Everyone else is going to see him for the twerp he is. They will have no faith in his sitting on this proto-government.

      Edmure – He was disliked by his own bannermen before all this began. Then he went and got himself captured, married a mortal enemy’s daughter, betrayed his uncle’s reformed army (his own house’s soldiers) and was responsible for their legend, the Blackfish’s death. I’d be surprised if he survives long enough to sit on a proto-government, but if he does, he will be hated by the nobility the kingdom over.

      Gendry – an exceedingly low-born bastard of unproven stock (Robert never acknowledge him). He was also legitimised by the mad queen herself; hardly a ringing endorsement. He will struggle with his own lords, let alone the rest of the kingdom.

      Just how is a motley crew like this going to gain the support of the Lords of Westeros – and let’s not beat about the bush, they need the support of the lords of Westeros (ain’t that right Varys?) – it’s simple, they don’t even seek it, they stand behind their figurehead, the King of Westeros, a measured, beloved man who saved their lives by bringing the armies of Westeros together to fight the NK, who may save them again by vanquishing the Mad Queen. They let him seek the support of the Lords of Westeros. They let him be their PR agent, because he seems to have a knack for it and they work hand-in-hand to overcome the trouble with the lords of Westeros and also, the trouble with the smallfolk. Onto my last point, I swear.

      3. If you thought the PR with the Lords of Westeros was bad, just think how the Smallfolk feel about them?!

      So at this point in the story, the smallfolk have been royally screwed for around 8 years or so. They are probably ready to rebel, mutiny, stage a revolution and get rid of all those fancy lads in silk (thanks Bronn). This would be a wonderful thing from our 21st century perspective but if they launch into a revolution now, on the brink of starvation, with winter rolling in, with a huge number of the population wiped out, it may very well be the end of life in Westeros. None of the smallfolk will have any faith left in the nobility. They’re not going to trust a council of nobles, but they may trust a man who is just, kind, fights for everyone, regardless of status, someone who seemed lowborn and was raised a bastard: King Jon. The fact that he risked all and gave all to save the lives of wildlings, the only people the poorest members of Westerosi society feel are a class beneath themselves, means that he would fight to save anyone! He died to protect wildlings, what would he do to protect them? Jon could build much more trust with the smallfolk than any of the others could. He could be their champion. Have we ever seen any of the others inspire the loyalty of common-folk? Ever? Jon could do it. He could unite rich and poor, north and south, bitter enemies, all with the guidance of a council acting as a proto-government alongside him.

      Right, I think I remembered everything. I am so sorry for the length of this essay, but once I got going, I couldn’t stop and it made me really explore what may lay in store for the ending of this story.

      The problem with the TV medium (and this isn’t a dig at D&D) is that the ending is going to feel false. We can be assured GRRM, should he ever finish the books, will give us chapters, if not a whole book, about the aftermath and the reign/rule of the victors. However, that can’t work in the TV medium. Instead, we will be left wondering if the next civil war was about to break out shortly after those final credits roll on Sunday (unless they do a time jump at the end). It’s going to feel highly unsatisfying (until A Dream of Spring comes out).

      *Again, sorry for the length!!! And this is all merely hypothetical, as I am 99% sure Jon will die doing something stupi….I’m sorry, I mean heroic, on Sunday*

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    302. Che,

      I can’t believe I read all that.

      😅

      I will be keeping this in the back of my mind while watching the finale.

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    303. Mr Derp,

      Do you want proof that Jon doesn’t love Dany?

      – the cave scene in s7: did it feel romantic? Jon shows vulnerability (= my people will most likely die unless you help us), and Dany starts believing in his weird story but says she’ll only help if he loses his pride and bends the knee already. He looks appalled that she uses his desperation to her advantage.
      – Jon leaving for the wight hunt? Dany says that she’s “grown used to him“ but unfortunately for her, Jon gives her the ”I wish you good fortune” impersonal line and gets away without turning around.
      – The “how about my queen” boat scene? When they talk about her loss, he keeps silent about his uncle dying to save him (=no mutual bonding). They’re both sad and hurt but she’s the one getting all the comfort, reassurance and care. He heaves a tormented sigh when she leaves. No watching her leave with longing.
      – The boatbang ? No first kiss. No talking. No confession of feelings.
      – 8.01? Dany threatens Sansa (=Jon’s trigger button) and yet he doesn’t dare say anything. Jon is uncomfortable during the dragon ride and afraid of Drogon. He doesn’t answer Sansa’s “did you bend the knee to save the North or because you love her”, why don’t we see his answer if Jon/Dany is real?
      – 8.02? Jon avoids her all day. In the council scene Dany opens her mouth and he has an instant negative reaction. Afterwards he tries to be gentle and kind when he tells her about RLJ but Dany immediately feels threatened and her paranoia immediately jumps out.
      – 8.04? Jon couldn’t care less that Dany sat alone. Not once did he try to include her. Afterwards Dany explicitly forbids him from being associated with her family. Yet he tells both Sansa and Arya– Dany explicitly didn’t want Sansa in particular to know and Jon told her anyway, thus choosing Sansa over Dany.
      – 8.05: does his “I love you” sound truthful when he’s just witnessed her murdering her own advisor?

      Mr Derp: Additionally, Dany was willing to ally with Jon to fight the AOTD BEFORE they had sex.

      They only bang after that stupid wight mission happened. At that point, Jon had seen the AotD and he was even more desperate to ensure her help because he knew for sure that they wouldn’t survive without her.

      (I’m off now. sy tomorrow)

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    304. Cliohna,

      The context of my posts was someone posing the question what we would consider “sweet” in the end, and that’s what I was explaining would be sweet, to me.

      It would be sweet to see some of the characters on a path to happiness, if some are finding happiness together, all the better.

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    305. Che: I just wrote the longest response only to have it swallowed by the ether when I pressed ‘post comment’.

      That could be my fault. I’ve previously heard from other posters that some of their comments to me have disappeared into the shadows. It seems to have something to do with my name, at least that’s what I’ve been told.

      Che: Can you imagine this group of individuals agreeing on anything?

      Can you imagine our current representatives agreeing on anything? Me neither, but it’s the best government we got 🙂

      Che: Just how is a motley crew like this going to gain the support of the Lords of Westeros – and let’s not beat about the bush, they need the support of the lords of Westeros (ain’t that right Varys?) – it’s simple, they don’t even seek it, they stand behind their figurehead, the King of Westeros, a measured, beloved man who saved their lives by bringing the armies of Westeros together to fight the NK, who may save them again by vanquishing the Mad Queen. They let him seek the support of the Lords of Westeros. They let him be their PR agent, because he seems to have a knack for it and they work hand-in-hand to overcome the trouble with the lords of Westeros and also, the trouble with the smallfolk.

      I just don’t think the lords and ladies of Westeros will have the stomach to support another Targaryen after Dany. Think about it. The last two Targaryen rulers both went berserk. I still think Bran is a possibility to be the ruler who makes the final decision for the small council, similar to a constitutional monarchy. I could be completely wrong, of course 🙂

      Che: 3. If you thought the PR with the Lords of Westeros was bad, just think how the Smallfolk feel about them?!

      “The common people pray for rain, health, and a summer that never ends. They don’t care what games the high lords play.”
      ―Ser Jorah Mormont

      Even if they did care, they really don’t have any power to do anything yet. Baby steps to a full democracy.

      Che: Right, I think I remembered everything. I am so sorry for the length of this essay, but once I got going, I couldn’t stop and it made me really explore what may lay in store for the ending of this story.

      No apology necessary 🙂 I admire your passion for the show and it’s a breath of fresh air after all the increased negativity going on in GoT land since the last episode.

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    306. Che,

      I agree with all of that. You could have a ‘council’ but you would still need someone fair to oversea it and help try and settle disputes.

      The only logical way this can go now (in my eyes) is Jon reluctantly ruling. His arc has been about uniting people (they took the AOTD arc away with Arya and he hasn’t done anything this season). Which is probably why it won’t happen.

      I get Jon’s had enough and could leave but he has never shirked his duty. I would love a scene where he talks about leaving the shit to everyone else and Davos (what has he done this season?) give one of his motivational speeches!

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    307. Netheb,

      D&D stated in the inside that he was talking about leading. So I think that make it clear that it was about leading.

      And if you look at the show it makes sense. He even said to Sansa that it was not his choice to be groomed as king in the north and that he didn’t want that.

      Tyrion varys talk about that Jon doesn’t want to be king etc

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    308. Netheb,

      Biggest bullshit about them. He didn’t need to do as if he was in love with her. Dany said she helped Jon no matter what with the aotd.

      Even the writers and the actors said they are in love. Even Jon defend dany with Arya and Sansa. If he had a master plan. Why not say. “he sis your right. I’m already on it”

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    309. Netheb,

      “– The boatbang ? No first kiss. No talking. No confession of feelings.”

      So, you were in the room with them when that happened? You really think he didn’t kiss her, or say anything to her? He just went in and put it in her?

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    310. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Absolutely right, the only part left of what Jon’s doing in ADWD is that he chops off that guy’s head (forgot the name) and allows the wildlings in. The way they show Jon in the show is one of the things that bothers me most – still think that it’s not illogical if he retreats beyond the wall after the war and fighting is over.

      I am amazed how much we all still discuss and think about this show, which of course I still like very much. Just all this guesswork is so much fun. This morning I woke up (I’m currently in Asia) thinking about why the show didn’t show Dany after she started the rampage in KL. Was it really just sloppy writing or for a purpose? Maybe another twist, which is that Drogon went nuts and she couldn’t control the beast? So it’s not she who’s totally mad but the Dragons that need to be dealt with? Would probably appear odd, but you could still argue that Dany’s anger was somehow affecting Drogon. I read Fire and Blood before Season 8 and the book shows clearly what harm Dragons can do, how muc the common people once loathed them, and that there were reasons to get them all killed. And why would Emilia Clarke have a tattoo of three dragons to be the Mother of Dragons for the rest of her life, if the character turns out to be a mad evil villain? Just thinking…..

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    311. ramses,

      Yes I agree with you, this conversation has been in my head ever since. May also be the only reason they brought back Ghost to the show after all.
      Maybe the show ends as S101 started, with the gate of the Wall opening, and someone riding out to the North. But this time it is Jon going up to join the Free Folk for real. In the books his connection to the north is stronger than in the Show, through his as-yet unused warging abilities etc. We’ll see

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    312. AlwaysWinter,

      Are we really at the point where we are trying to read things into the tattoos the actors and actresses get?

      It’s possible that even though Dany went mad for 2 episodes, that Emilia really enjoyed her time on the show and the character…

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    313. JSchmeh,

      This was very much only half-serious anyway – but, again, everyone is reading things into everything these days, right? A little irony and fun along the way doesn’t do any harm. And words and actions by the actors have been discussed here and elsewhere for clues. Some actors have even be criticised for things they’ve said (as e.g. “many people will hate Bronn this season”).

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    314. Che

      Thank you for taking the time to write this Che, this was a great post indeed! And I wholeheartedly agree with your train of throught.

      And also I think you are right, that no matter how the story ends we will have the feeling we were ‘robbed’ of something, since it’s impossible to show everyhing in a 80 min episode, on TV.
      I hope they conclude Jon’s story, in a way that stays true to his arc and everything we saw until now. A girl still hopes.

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