Good lord (of light), Game of Thrones episodes are lengthy these days, aren’t they? That was the first thing that ran through my head during the almost hour and a half of Westerosi politics to which we were treated this week. In what felt distinctly like two different episodes merged together (to me, at least), we were treated to a whirlwind of emotions. Join me, as we dive in together.
Spoiler Note: This is our book reader’s recap, intended for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section may contain spoilers from the novels, whether or not that material has appeared on the show yet. Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you have not read the books yet, we encourage you to check out our non-book-reader recap, by Oz of Thrones!
Secondary Note: Sue is off this week, and has entrusted this week’s recap to me. You are cordially invited to tell me why you disagree with me, albeit your civility would be preferred!
Expectations, like power, are curious things, are they not? One day you expect a certain character to be in as position of power, and by night’s end you weep as their forces are decimated. But I’m getting ahead of myself. The first 45 minutes of the episode were contained within the walls of Winterfell. In a truly serene montage, we watched as the many casualties of last week’s battle were honored as true heroes.
Everyone has someone to mourn:
- Sam mourns Edd
- Jon mourns Lyanna
- Arya mourns Beric
- Sansa mourns Theon
- Dany mourns Jorah (as do I)
- Davos mourns his lack of resolution with Melisandre
It is a very somber opening, with a speech by Jon, in which he puts on his very manly adult voice, because that did not sound like the Jon I know? Just me? It all segues into an initially quiet post-funeral feast. No one seems to be able to say much of anything until Daenerys calls over Gendry. To everyone’s surprise (his most of all), she proclaims him Lord Baratheon of Storm’s End. And Dany gets to prove to Tyrion that she has some clever tricks up her sleeve same as he does (I quite liked that). As I see it, this newly made lordship does two things:
- Gives those not entirely loyal to her a reason to believe in her, as she shows herself to be a fair and just ruler, and, most importantly:
- Gets a possible claimant to the Iron Throne the HELL outta the way.
Gendry of course runs to Arya and without any plan in place just drops and proposes – ah, to be young and in love one-night stand. While flattered, Arya couldn’t help but throw a callback to season 1’s “That’s not me” and shuts it down. I’ve long said that Arya is not one for Westeros, and will go her own way once the fighting is done. As to where, your guess is as good as mine.
With the mood improved, the feasters proceed to play Game of LooksTM. Name a character who was present, and they give a sassy or surprised look at someone else in that room: Sansa, Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Davos, Tormund, Podrick, The Hou – nah, he’s too busy not caring and eating his damn chicken. Truth be told, I could have hung out at this joint for hours. We have another callback, with Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime, and Pod playing Guess the FactsTM which hearkens us back to season 1 when Tyrion, Bronn, and Shae first played on the eve of battle. Understandably, the question about Brienne’s virginity embarrasses her and she vacates the premises. And on this night of firsts, Brienne makes love for the first time, while Jaime makes love for the first time with someone who isn’t his own sister. It is beautiful, and to all those Tormund and ‘The Big Woman’ shippers, I extend to you my sincerest apologies. Jaime and Brienne have been on this path for 6 seasons now, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. If episodes 2 and 4 don’t earn Gwendoline Christie her Emmy nomination, so help me…
We have a quick little moment between Tyrion and Davos, exchanging pleasantries more than anything, and reminding us all why Davos needs to just buy his own piece of land in Westeros, settle down, and open a bar. But the real highlight for me of this whole set piece has to be the one that sets San-San fans aflame. The Sansa and Sandor of the show never had the relationship or as many interactions as they did in the books, but there was just enough for us to really connect with the characters in this moment. It seems there’s always destined to be a Stark girl in The Hound’s life. Rory McCann’s gruffness and Sophie Turner’s practicality mesh so well together. Their characters come alive so vividly and we think back to the Battle of the Blackwater when Sansa was rightfully afraid of the idea of leaving with The Hound. Houndsight is 20/20, of course, and she’d likely have been far safer with him than she would have with Littlefinger, but they are where they are because of the experiences that have shaped them.
Focusing on The Hound in particular, I cannot wait for more scenes between him and Arya. Of all the two-man quests the show has put forth, none has ever shined brighter than these two. We see them ride off together, presumably on their way to King’s Landing. Should he survive the seemingly impending #Cleganebowl, I kind of hope these two go off together. Not in a romantic way (gods no), but in a symbolic way, perhaps. TBD…
The most central plot, if you will, throughout the episode, is the question of who should rule the seven kingdoms? Dany makes sense as the last living Targaryen, and she tries to make Jon see this as they gather for some after dinner romance…but he cannot shake what he now knows. While he promises Dany he does not want the crown, and will serve her unconditionally, Dany gives him an ultimatum: Do not tell his sisters, or anyone else, what he knows. But, as we all know in the world of TV, no secret ever remains that way for long…
Amidst absolutely stunning cinematography, “the last of the Starks” gather in the godswood, for what might be their final family meeting. Words are exchanged but shade doesn’t come just from the trees in this scene; Bran tells Jon that it’s his choice. For Sansa and Arya, it would seem that the choice he faces is whether to stand with Sansa and hold the North, forgoing his newly sworn allegiance to Daenerys, or stand alongside Daenerys as she takes on Cersei. Of course, Jon knows the subtlety of Bran’s meaning, and while we don’t see it, we know that Jon comes clean to his sibs cousins. The lesson here is never, ever tell someone a secret you don’t want to get out. Naturally, Sansa told Tyrion, Tyrion told, Varys, and we were just off to the races…but more on that in a sec.
If you thought the the episode was slow and boring at first, boy howdy were you mistaken. As the gang moves south (at season 7 pace, not season 3 pace), RHAEGAL IS KILLED LITERALLY OUT OF NOWHERE OH MY GOD WHAT IS HAPPENING? I gotta hand it to the editors, if ever you are going to do a surprise death, that is the way to do it. Neither Dany nor we had any time to remotely process what was happening. There was no music, nor indication that the characters were going to be enmeshed in a battle until it actually happened. I guess while the rest of humanity was fighting for existence, Cersei kept her minions working day and night on making many Scorpions. With the fakeout death of Tyrion via fallen ship mast – nice try show, we’ve seen Jon climb back up from under a sheet of ice, and Jaime resurface miles from battle with a full suit of armor, so you aren’t fooling anyone with your water-based fake deaths – behind us, we learn that Missandei has been captured by Cersei. This one really hurts.
While Dany plots how best to storm King’s Landing, Cersei smartly fills the Red Keep with the common people, knowing Dany would need to become a butcher to win, which would certainly not help her solidify her rule. But Dany’s incensed desire to win whatever the cost (she literally says ‘whatever the cost’) does not sit well with her advisors. In scenes that are sure to send Twitter a tumblin’ (or is it Tumbler atwitter?), Varys and Tyrion debate what must be done about Dany. See, this is why Jon should have kept his stupid Targaryen mouth to himself. Arming Varys, who has only ever wanted to serve the realm, with information, is the most dangerous thing you can give a Spider. This gives him the confidence to suggesting overthrowing Daenerys, who he believes is rapidly spiraling downward toward madness. I will make this very clear: I do not agree with him. Tyrion, thankfully is on my side, and begs Varys to reconsider. I gotta say – going into this final season, I’d never have thought Varys capable of regicide, but it looks like this might be his path (for which he will likely die trying).
The final 10 minutes of the episode contain so much tension that my neck is still straining from all the blood coursing through it. Tyrion does his best to appeal to the human he believes lives somewhere amidst the shell of Queen Cersei. And here’s where I give Cersei some credit, but please hear me out, before you @ me. For Cersei – one track, one mind, pure evil Cersei, acting impulsively is one of her stronger attributes. But here, she did something very cold and calculating amongst greater pressure. She had three options: Surrender, which was never going to happen, kill Tyrion, or kill Missandei. We all know which one she took, but it’s the why she took that way about which I am so fascinated. Cersei has always been petty, and prone to put her own self-interests above others. Tyrion is the person she probably hates most in this world, and killing him would bring her extraordinary satisfaction. Yet, she believes hurting her enemy is more important than rewarding herself, and so she opts instead to go for Daenerys’ (and by extension Grey Worm’s) jugular. You could hear a pin drop in my viewing party. Unfortunately, we know how it turns out. As a white guy, I’m going to leave the discussions of representation to people better suited than I am, but I’ll say her death felt meaningful, and her character felt important. Nathalie Emmanuel poured her heart and soul into this show, and I am forever grateful. She is a treasure and I’m so glad she made her mark.
Stray Thoughts:
- Get it, Podrick!
- I don’t really get you, Tormund, you spurned man, but get it all the same!
- That scene with Bronn bursting in on Jaime and Tyrion did NOT go how I thought it would. I completely assumed that Bronn would head north, using Cersei’s edict as an excuse to escape King’s Landing. Was this scene out of character for Bronn? Yes, he is a sellsword through and through, but after 8 seasons, I do not feel confident that this is the character we know. I don’t know what else to feel. Help me feel things, commenters.
- Who is going to be Lord of Winterfell? Tyrion and Bran exchange brief words over this but it doesn’t seem too resolved at the moment. Sansa seems like the easy option, but as we know, nothing is obvious on this show.
- There’s a new Prince of Dorne? Huh? What? Details, please. That was pretty glossed over, though I suspect that was intentionally so.
- I seriously don’t get why Jon HAS to tell his sisters. If he swears unconditional love to Dany, then who cares? Telling other people only makes her more vulnerable to enemies. His commitment to being as honorable as Ned is going to get people killed!
- Jon had so many goodbyes! First with Tormund, then with Sam, and finally with Ghost…? Huh? It seems like the show just decided that CGI and FX are cool when it comes to dragons and leveling cities…but not when it comes to just kinda enhancing dogs to make them look bigger? What? Jon just writes Ghost off like that? That seems unlikely.
- I feel like the show just doesn’t know what to do with Gilly so they decided, “Hey, let’s make her pregnant!” with a Little Gilly.
- I don’t think it was out of character for Jaime to leave hastily in the middle of the night. He’s obviously very conflicted about his feelings for Cersei, and just hearing the news is enough to give him the jitters. It is not out of place, though. I think he has always been building to this moment. The timing of it does suck for Brienne, though.
RIP:
- Rhaegal
- Missandei
Final thoughts:
This episode is sure to be divisive. My biggest problems were character inconsistencies and the episode length. There were basically two complete episodes stuffed into one, which makes this all very frustrating. The first 45 minutes of this episode was very strong, if you ask me. And then, the second half was so different in tone. It could have added 10 minutes of fleshing out, and been its own episode. Still, the show found ways to impress me, whether in the incredible feast scenes early on, Brienne and Jaime love, or the blood-pumping suspense of the episode’s harrowing final moments. Game of Thrones is a mammoth undertaking and you can’t please everyone, but I do think this episode has a couple cracks. However, it was largely very exciting, both in its small character moments, as well as its action setpieces.
What did you think, friends? Let us know in the comments below.
SO the endgame for Sam and Bran were to tell Jon about his true parents? And to have Bran as bait. Thats it. What was in those books Sam stole? Great episode but expected more for these two characters in the final season
It was indeed Shakespearean and I loved it for that–the Bronn scene, though, I did have some misgivings about the way it was presented at first, but it helps to contextualize it a bit. To be fair he isn’t wrong when he says that both Tyrion and Jaime have made him countless promises that haven’t truly been delivered on (and he’s frequently put his life on the line for them), but at the same time he’s clearly looking for an excuse not to kill them, he doesn’t want to carry out Cersei’s orders even if he knows he would benefit from it, so instead he effectively threatens Tyrion into bribing him with a better deal. Being a relatively minor character I’m sure Bronn is one of the characters who didn’t have an ending described by Martin, which likely explains this.
But that said, I personally predict that he will ultimately end up choosing friendship over wealth for perhaps the first real time in his life, and could quite possibly end up paying for that as a result.
Great episode. I like how Dany always dreamt about coming home, but then when she finally landed in Westeros and defeated the major threat, she is realizing that it isn’t her home at all, but rather a place completely alien to her.
I’m not ready to say goodbye to all of the characters about to die next week. I fully expect Jon to be one of them. Gods, it’s gonna suck!
This felt like the cliff notes version of the ending GRRM told them about. Thematically it was spot on. However, have they mishandled the characters so much that the story loses meaning? I feel like people don’t like where it is heading with Dany, but it seems like it has been stated plainly in the books that this was coming. And to be honest, it is the most complex and tragic story of any character in the show, and I didn’t think I’d feel that way about the character.
Jaime’s words to Brienne was 100 percent his way of saying he is on a mission to kill Cersei and he doesn’t want Brienne following him, IMO. “I’m hateful too!” It’s come full circle. He has to kill another monarch to save KL again.
I can’t help but feel Arya and the Hound are riding to yet another Red Wedding. If Jon dies, please let him have one last moment with Arya.
Speaking of which, not showing Arya and Sansa’s reactions to the big identity reveal was weak. Super weak. Yes, let’s not allow the actors to play off of such a dramatic moment and make it all the more memorable.
Sansa, speaking of coming full circle, you just betrayed your family again! I don’t blame Jon for telling his sisters, I suppose. Not everyone has Ned’s strength. But my gods Sansa! You want to protect Jon? Okay, so let’s thrust him into a Civil War, if by chance he even survives this one! Which he won’t. He’s dead. Super dead.
Bronn never really intended to kill Jaime and Tyrion, he was just getting some longstanding revenge on 2 friends who had jerked him around for a long time.
Fuck Cersei. Die, bish.
Anyway, Sandor and Arya always make me happy. And he’s happy, in his own curmudgeonly way, which makes me happy.
Missandei of Naath telling Dany to burn this shit down, wow. Really love Missandei, and losing her hurt.
Losing Rhaegal, like any animal, ALWAYS hurts. Ow.
JORAH, I AM NOT KIDDING, WE NEED YOU BACK. SERIOUSLY.
I honestly thought this was the best written episode D&D have done since season 4. It’s sure to be divisive since it appears that Dany will indeed turn into the Mad Queen, after all. Ouch.
As I noted in the other thread… Top 5, maybe top 3 for me.
I’m exhausted and emotionally devastated, more than I was last week.
MISSANDEI.
Arya and the Hound understand each other more than any other pair of people on this show, despite (or perhaps because of) their surliness and emotional guardedness. I’m not surprised by their heading off together, and won’t be surprised if they wind up on a ship together to find what’s west of Westeros.
Little Bird. Oh, my.
Brienne. Oh, my heart breaks for her.
Tormund and Ghost!!! Fuck.
Gendry. You poor, simple, besotted boy.
Varys. My favorite arachnid is going to meet his end soon, and I’m distressed.
Fuck.
Not enough Scotch.
I can’t help but feel disappointed. I’ve been a fan for so many years and I hoped this final season would be a great conclusion to a great story. But I feel robbed of the high standard of storytelling. Everything feels so rushed, dialogues are nowhere near close to the quality of previous seasons (anyone else finds some of the banters so cheesy?). Characters act illogical or just plain stupid (how could they not see Euron’s ships? How did they forget about this massive weapon machine against dragons? Why did they think they could negotiate with Cersei about Missandei when she has currently has the upper hand?).
I don’t even care about Dany going full mad (I think the tendency was pretty visible during the show). Ep 3 was a pure “popcorn blockbuster” fan-service with many dumb parts but I was willing to not let it change my mind and not lower my hopes for a great final season. But with this episode, I’m really afraid about the whole thing. I don’t see any intelligent development, clever characters are continuously dumbed down, all logic is thrown out of a window for a sake of some wannabe epicness and grandiosity…
And I repeat, I love the show! But I just don’t understand how so many fans don’t see the mistakes and cheer, even though this season is turning the whole show into something none of us would have ever wanted it to become…
Or what do you guys think?
The magic of the show is gone, destroyed, ruined. I even do not longer want to point out all the stupid things they did. I hope GRRM will finish the books so we might get the magic of the story back. I do not need just another average action movie with stupid unlogical plots.
I loved this episode, just finished watching and I am SHOOK, not sure why Varys thinks Daenerys is going mad, she makes rushed decisions but I wouldn’t call her mad, I’m more with Tyrion on this.
the things I do wish we had was figuring out what Bran is really doing, I mean what has his arc led to? just living in the past? and I wish we learned more about white walkers, it may be that showrunners don’t have more information on them?
so basically at this point every hype we had about this season was a red herring to what actually is the endgame, conflict between the characters, morality,loyalty,…
the humans could save each other from the white walkers and magical beings, but they can’t save themselves from themselves..
also all the goodbyes to Jon had me worried, I don’t think he and Daenerys are gonna make it. not ready to say goodbye..
The time of the episode was fine with me, almost wish it was longer.
That’s not what “illogical” means. And what exactly were they meant to do about the massive weapon machine? Furthermore, last time that weapon was used it barely did shit
I felt Bronn acted in character. He knows that Cersei pays her debts, so despite his liking of the brothers, he wants to make sure he gets his castle. But I guess Sam will reappear to gather the Reach, and Bronn will get his “reward”. Jaime didn’t promise anything (true to his word) and Tyrion is able to turn.
Daenerys her arc is tragic. I think it’s unfortunate that she doesn’t want to share power with Jon (even while being in love). Luckily, now that Rhaegal’s gone, we won’t see D and J fight (thank the gods) and because Euron shot Rhaegal, him proposing to Daenerys is also out of question (thank the gods). As Tyrion somehow says, she became self-entitled, but she did a lot of good. I now fear she will die while taking KL, and Drogon too.
Hope Sansa doesn’t go for Lady MacBeth. Btw, I suppose she’s aware that Arya is heading for Cersei, but why don’t they tell Daenerys/Tyrion etc? It seems like the Stark girls think that they can better solve the problem of Cersei themselves and simultaneously be independent of Daenerys and have a better claim for independence. Otherwise, it would be weird that Sansa, who always mentioned “the enemy to the south” wouldn’t be happy for support of Daenerys against Cersei. Now Jon is finally doing what she told him in S6.
I understand Jon wants to tell Arya and Sansa. Ned is their father and they have a right to know. But the timing could have been better. Jon saying goodbye to Ghost could have been more emotional, but he’s right setting his wolf free in the north with the wildlings. Notice that he doesn’t want the wildlings to fight for Daenerys (they wouldn’t help much anyway, but that’s not their fight)
Jaime is an asshole. But Brienne’s response to this drinking contest is too “modern”. I think a Ser/Lady Brienne from the middle ages would have been proud of her virginity (even though she doesn’t want to be a lady, but that’s in other respects).
Cersei killing Missandei seems to be that she either wants to provoke a quick fight from Daenerys, or that she wants to carry out her treats notwithstanding the consequences. In the former case, it could be her better option because the Golden Company costs money and she has no lands. Personally I do think they had way too many scorpions though, and the technology is a bit too evolved. How much money did the Iron Bank loan to them? And why didn’t Daenerys roast them from the side while they shot at the ships?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
To me it feels like they’re just checking off the boxes to get it ended. Seven seasons (much more for book readers but I can’t speak for that) of speculating, reading everyone’s fully fleshed out theory crafting and opinion on characters and why they are good/bad or getting reamed over why you believe one or the other will turn bad and defending our idea of these characters.
We must have watched different episodes? Action movie? LOL. This episode was virtually all dialogue except for about 10 minutes. And very good dialogue too.
And if you think that if in THIS episode specifically there aren’t a bunch of spoilers for the books, you’re deluding yourself.
fdr,
To my own comment, maybe Jaime is actually travelling south to deal with Cersei (talking or otherwise) to prevent KL from being destroyed, and he doesn’t trust Brienne to be silent about it. But then he wouldn’t feel the need to hurt her (despite giving the audience on the wrong idea). And also, why doesn’t Sansa send her guards after a lonely Knight who is going to help the enemy?
Edit: I just see Tyrion Pimpslap had a similar idea and already came up with a good explanation why Jaime’s hurting Brienne: he wants to make sure Brienne doesn’t follow him.
https://twitter.com/UberKryptonian/status/1125277431399682048
Pumpkin spice latte 😃🤦♂️
It’s happening pretty much as I expected given the reaction to last episode. People aren’t going to give these last 3 episodes a chance, they’ve decided they’re bad in advance. The fact that this has the lowest rating by far of any episode on IMDB is just absurd, and like 2000 people gave it a 1 before it it had ever aired
I didn’t get to finish my thought cause I ran out of time (trying to formulate the right words, which don’t always come easily for me) but yeah, I was going to end with after all that I know some are going to feel like they invested a lot of time and emotion into character/story line that in the end feels rather all for naught in some ways.
For one I don’t see this having a happy ending for any of our faves.
I am really quite upset by the Jaime/Brienne thing. I can’t believe that he would sleep with her then leave her after everything they have been to each other. I am hoping that he is planning to end Cersei, but am also prepared for a massive disappointment.
cosca,
Maybe because it
Thanks for the recap 🙂
My heart broke for Grey-worm.
And Brienne.I wonder if D & D are going to make Brienne pregnant, and when Jaime dies (idiot!) her child will be acknowledged by Tyrion as the Lannister heir? It sounds fan servicey but the writers made sure Tyrion knew about the relationship…
George,
Yes. As I stated before, this episode was the closest they’ve come to GRRM’s story in years. It felt like the themes explored, particularly with regards to Dany/Jon, was straight from George’s mouth about how he envisioned the ending. We can focus on how we feel about Dany all we want, but we are not those characters. They each have their own reasons for questioning her, particularly after they learn about Jon. It’s just a shame there aren’t more episodes to explore this development.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
> But my gods Sansa! You want to protect Jon? Okay, so let’s thrust him into a Civil War, if by chance he even survives this one! Which he won’t. He’s dead. Super dead.
She wants to be Queen of an independent North foremost, or know that the Kingdom is ruled by someone she trusts, but yes, she’s playing with high risks for her family. But if Jon was really going to die, I would have expected that D&D had let him kill the NK. If he dies now, his purpose was to bring the realm together to defeat the NK and then be one of the straws that lit Daenerys her pyre?
Somehow it’s not unimaginable that most men have a better opinion of Daenerys than women, who are less taken by her looks (except Yara). I actually also like that now, when all the powerful men are gone, it’s the now the powerful women who create problems, and the men trying to keep it all together.
Btw, anyone who knows who told Dany about Gendry? Was it Davos or Jon? I couldn’t really get the right answer from their looks. Jon would be more closer to Dany (and actually it would maybe also show he can be intelligent), but from the looks it seems it was Davos who took the initiative to tell Dany.
cosca,
We knew this was coming. It is rather sad. I have my problems with the show and the way it has handled many characters. I don’t think they are good at imagining battle plans. They make characters do foolish things for the sake of a surprise. But I did enjoy this episode a lot. It’s not perfect. But it could crack my top 10, or at least be on a level with my top 15-20 favorite episodes. It’s certainly in my top 5 since they surpassed the books.
Biggest wtfs:
How noone saw Eurons ships, especially Dany, Drogon or Rhaegal from the air. That really was a stretch of suspended disbelief. And Dany not flanking them and then torching them… yeah we get it, but honestly not believable.
Dany and her compliment of unsullied looking to be more than in range of the dozen or so wall scorpions. Cersei could have taken her out easily at the end.
The plot armor is too strong in both of these scenes. Loved the episode otherwise.
… and this can be seen, in some way, as rather beautiful
cosca,
That makes me sad, if I were working on the show I’d probably be depressed by the amount of backlash if I’d spent the last 8-10 years of my life on it, but the haters are always the loudest. (by haters I don’t mean people who have valid criticisms)
Tyrion Pimpslap,
As I’ve written before (and countless others have as well), the last two seasons have been inexplicably rushed.
Tonight my heart broke for Daenerys. A descent into darkness seems inevitable, and the reasons for it are all too understandable, all too human, all too predictable for any student of history. And while they are true to GRRM’s unflinchingly clear-eyed vision of fiction that honestly reflects reality, I did so desperately wish that D&D would have given it enough time to play out onscreen.
I’m far more shattered by this episode than I was by Ep3, in all the “good” ways. But I simply can’t imagine how it’ll be satisfactorily concluded in the time left.
I mostly liked the episode, except for 1) Jaime backsliding, if that is indeed what is happening, and 2) the intensity of Bronn’s anger and resentment, which seems overblown given what we know of his past relationships with both Lannister brothers.
I disagree with the OP about the Varys/Tyrion discussion of Dany’s behavior. I think Varys has the right of it and is giving Tyrion a badly needed reality check. I’m sorry to know that Varys is almost certainly toast in the next episode. And it pains me to see supposedly brilliant Tyrion still clinging to his faith in Dany no matter what she does. It’s not grounded in reality. Dany just wants to be a conqueror, regardless of who has a better claim. It’s tiresome.
I hate being cut off from character’s POV just for shock value. Arya and Sansa not reacting to the parentage reveal? Not getting real insight into what Jon is feeling about all of this? What the hell?! I thought it was going to be THE biggest relevation…also for the Stark family. I’m almost certain it is only executed this way for some kind of twist. *Sigh*
But this episode showed me one thing (dare I say it?) : Sansa is in love with Jon. Her dislike of Dany does not only stem from a political rationale or from her doubts about Dany’s abilities as queen. It goes beyond that, it’s irrational. It comes from a deep emotion she can’t quite control and maybe wasn’t/isn’t even aware of.
Wow that fleet of Euron’s really snuck up on them. Pity that they didn’t have a way of scouting out the enemy from the air before they got there… Oh, they did? Maybe they just didn’t think that the enemy having a fleet of ships more powerful than theirs would be an issue.
About as dumb as sending the Dothraki army to their deaths in a screaming, unsupported wave. There has just been so much DUMB in the last two weeks! Why did Jon tell his sisters? What on earth did he think that making them pinky swear would do?
I really don’t care if they massacre thousands or not. Since they had no real plan that didn’t involve the sacrifice of the Unsullied and the Dothraki I have lost interest. They have the worst generals since WWI.
Great episode!
– I liked how the North is still frosty towards Dany because they should be.
– I loved how tragic it is to see Dany unravelling (even if I don’t like the character it was really well done.
– As someone who believed Missandei should have died last week in the crypts, her beheading seeing the body fall to the ground was so brutal and definitely the better option. Greyworms reaction was amazing acting.
– Glad Gendry was legitimised but again does this stand if Dany never becomes Queen which seems likely at this point?
– I loved Arya turning down Gendry it was so in her character.
– I loved Varys switching to team Jon, it was expected but done with solid rationale. Sadly I really feel for him and Tyrion in the next episode. Dany may execute them both as she will scapegoat them.
– I loved the mass funeral in the beginning minutes.
– I loved Tyrion trying to do the right thing throughout yet slowly realising that Dany may not deserve his loyalty.
There were a couple of things I was less keen on as follows:
– Euron killing Rhaegal was a surprise and felt a little odd to happen so suddenly and with such accuracy, where does he go after that too? Also how did the survivors swim to Dragonstone so easily?
– Gendry proposing to Arya so quickly felt odd and rushed.
– Mixed feelings on Jamie/Brienne then him leaving at the end to deal with Cersei.
I don’t know how “satisfying” people are going to think the ending is. (Which is probably why George has had writer’s block for years.)
My Predictions:
Jaime kills Cersei, dies in the KL fire.
Arya gets sidetracked in her Cersei quest and ends up helping the Hound in his fight with The Mountain. Mountain defeated, The Hound gets mortally wounded and Arya mercy kills him.
Dany roasts Euron and his fleet, along with most of King’s Landing.
Dany goes full Mad Queen (Think Rhaenyra in George’s The Princess and the Queen) and Jon Snow ends up killing her.
Jon Snow ends up on the Throne, establishes a Ruling Council to limit the power of the monarchy. (Davos, Tyrion, Sansa, Sweet Robin (LOL), etc.)
Flashforward:
Old Sam writes A Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe we see Old Jon as King, brooding into the distance. FINIS.
I don’t think people will like it. LOL.
Uh…the dragons basically were the scouts? And the fleet was prepared for them to an extent the heroes couldn’t really have anticipated?
I swear that the standards people have begun applying to the show have no real bearing on reality or even what has gone before in the show or books. Things like scouting and so on have pretty much NEVER been a major part of the series. How many times have massive armies crept up on people? The Tyrells and Lannisters at Blackwater, Stannis with the Wildlings. But this never bothered people becauae they were willing to go with it because they enjoyed the series. Now people want the show to fail, it couldn’t be more obvious!
So let me get this straight: Jon letting his sisters/cousins learn the truth about his parents is somehow worse than Sansa revealing the big secret to Tyrion moments after she promised she wouldn’t?
How does that make any sense? If Jon dies as a consequence, will it also be his own fault?
S8E4 – the Day the Ships Died
RIP Arya and Gendry
RIP Brienne and Jamie
RIP Dany and Jon
RIP Missandi and Grey Worm
RIP Sansa and Sandor
RIP Sansa and Tyrion
Sansa is no longer a Stark. More a Bolton or Baelish!
Cannot even keep her word in the Godswood. That is why Ned never told anyone about Jon even his wife.
Loved the episode, by the way. I tend to find battles and strategy kind of boring, and quieter moments are far more interesting.
Dany seems to be flagging right before the finish line. Which is a shame, since we’ve followed her journey all this time. I’m not sure Jon would ever agree to betray her. In fact, this episode showed that beyond Grey Worm and Tyrion, Jon is her main supporter now.
Admittedly, if she does go all fire and blood on King’s Landing, that might change.
George,
Jon wouldn’t kill Daenerys in battle, and he can’t get to her unless Drogon is shot first. So either he gets roasted (which I don’t believe) or they capture Dany, but then I still think they won’t execute her, at least Jon won’t do that, even when duty is the death of love. He will plead for mercy. I guess she dies in battle, and he finds her a la Ygritte when he arrives with the troops.
Arya helping the Hound in his final moments is foreshadowed, and I prefer that Jaime takes out Cersei storywise.
Btw, I am also wondering, if Euron knows that Tyrion knows that Cersei is pregnant, doesn’t he then also know that the child isn’t his, even when Cersei is pretending that? Any repercussions here?
Redx,
But Sansa has suffered so much. She’s just guarded. She’s just being a political mastermind. She was just a little girl when she wanted to be Queen and betrayed her father to Cercei but ya’ll hold that against her still. I’m tired of all the Sansa haters./s
No, you’re right. She’s not to be trusted.
I still mostly enjoy watching this, but honestly the show has been lost since offing Tywin Lannister. It had a plausible means back then of making the task faced by our heroes in the war seem impossible. This was a man of such far reaching power and influence that they could fight the battles of their lives and still lose. It was heartbreaking, but deserved. The better team won. It doesn’t feel like that any more. It feels like the good guys have the better team but the league wants a close game, so they’re calling a bunch of nonsense fouls or some bettor is paying the good guys to miss on purpose and shave points. It’s suspense drummed up to hold interest, but it doesn’t feel organic.
This started all the way back in season 5 when they had Stannis completely implode out of nowhere and go from defeating an army of 100,000 without breaking a sweat to having his entire force broken by a sneak attack from 20 guys. And it continued into the next season with the Umbers turning heel with such poor motivation basically just because the plot needed some extra suspense so the Knights of the Vale could stroll in and pick up a last second win.
It got so much worse these past two seasons because they overpowered Daenerys but don’t want her to just stroll in and win because they need conflict, so they turn Euron and Cersei into genius masterminds when they need to and Tyrion into a bumbling idiot. They use the Army of the Dead as a plot device to give Cersei an assist. Euron is stupid enough to leave his prize prisoner guarded by six mutes so Theon can complete his redemption arc, then he’s a dragonslayer a few hours later because they need to push Dany over the edge.
They turn Jon’s parentage reveal into just a source of conflict. The two greatest triumphs of the entire story, defeating the dead and finding out Rhaegar and Lyanna were married to bring together ice and fire and have their child of prophecy to end the long night and bring the dawn, and what do they do? They just make our heroes weaker.
This no longer feels like Ned Stark, an honest man who understimated his friend’s abused wife. It doesn’t feel like Robb Stark, who fought valiantly and bravely and smartly, but was simply not ready for the stage and faced too great of odds stacked against him. It doesn’t feel like Jon Snow doing the right thing at all costs but dying for it because his brothers just weren’t ready to make peace with a historic enemy. It just feels now like writers determined to keep the good guys down by any contrivance imaginable.
You can amass the greatest army the world has ever seen. You can finally unite those historical enemies. You can vision quest to become a mystical entity of unknown but great purpose. You can overcome war and captivity and rape and even death itself, but you still can’t win.
It just feels like we’re watching characters predestined to lose no matter what they do by an impossibly cruel god, and they are, because their world is literally controlled by a man with a pen who has effectively preordained that it makes no difference what they do along the way. We need to sustain the drama, so we need to even the odds. Every plot development no longer feels driven by inevitability or character. It feels motivated by the need to keep the suspense alive a little bit longer even though a continents spanning alliance that just defeated death itself is facing an enemy hated by everyone who controls literally one castle. We know she isn’t going to win, but the writers are determined not to depict a blowout and we can’t have happiness at any cost, so here we are.
Sansa is little finger incarnate she will betray anyone to become queen in the North Arya saw through her once when she discover how Sansa had betrayed her father and family for her silly dream of becoming the queen of the seven kingdom, her telling Tyrion Jon’s identity just put a target mark on Jon she may pretend but we all know she has no love for anyone but herself and power ,she is Cercei & Littlefinger combined. It sucks that she wont die as she is far away from the war but i believe she deserves to die
Daenerys is no mad queen anyone who has just suffered her tragedy would react the same … her mistake was making Tyrion her hand and letting him fill her head with this saving the people nonsense, she should have stuck to her initial plan and burnt the red keep from the start now she will lose everything… She deserves better but unfortunately she fell in love with a truthful idiot and trusted schemers and now that Jorah is gone she has no one in her corner which is the saddest part no matter how they paint her as evil in my opinion she will forever be the hero of this series.
As for Cercei well played , she deserves the most painful death ever and i hope they don’t give her a quick death , her tyranny has went on long enough and its about time for it to end
‘Basically, it’s okay to give your readers nice things to look forward to in your stories.’
GRRM: ‘Well…’
‘No George, it really is okay.’
Redx,
True i think i dislike more than Cercei , Cercei no matter how even never betrays her family .. Sansa is Judas!!! Her word means nothing even to her family
Everyone is saying that sending Ghost to the North is a budgetary thing but I saw it as a very emotional moment where Jon says goodbye to his role as a wolf. Although Lyanna was his mother, he now feels that he is a Targaryen, what I find really sad though is that he’s lost his dragon and the only way he will ever ride on again is if Dany dies because dragons can only have one rider.
Also, is it just me or did Tyrion rule out that the WW brought the Winter? He said something about the smallfolk of KL turning on Cersei in season 2 and “that was before winter came” or something like that which seemed to imply that winter is here now and here to stay (so the seasons still go on as normal then? winter may come to KL still?).
I found this episode truly terrifying because I was NOT ready to see Rhaegal die and I’m not ready to say goodbye to Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa or Tyrion. Lil disappointed that Sansa was the one to break the word of Jon’s parentage, I would have preferred if Varys had little birds in WF or something and caught word of it instead.
fdr,
Brienne will not follow Jaime .. she is sworn to protect Sansa.
cosca,
I don’t want perfection, I just want somebody to have a plan that doesn’t involve the equivalent of rushing at the enemy going aargh! We saw them in the north discussing the fact that half of the armies had been lost, we saw them discussing the Golden Company and how this evens things up. They knew that Euron and his fleet were at King’s landing. So what is the point of trying to land ships at King’s Landing???
Again, what was the point of sending your cavalry riding into the dark against the enemy? Did they expect the Dothraki to beat all of the undead? Was it just a suicide mission? What was the point of spending a huge effort making f%*ing trebuchets that got one shot off each?
At Helm’s Deep there was a sense of a battle plan, even if it was likely futile. When the battles are this dumb I lose any interest.
Daenerys, my Queen… you’re not long for this world, are you? ;_; The madness is justified, which makes it all the more tragic… please surprise me. Please live. But if you don’t… hug Jorah.
A really good episode for me in that it had me riveted without the need for big action sequences. Missandei’s execution left me feeling like I did after the red wedding. Gutted, horrified and heartbroken for Greyworm.
My interpretation of Jaime leaving was that having heard the bad news from down south, he felt he had to play a part in taking down Cersei. I didn’t get the impression at all that he was going back to Cersei, rather that he felt honour bound to do something about her. Was I wrong?
The promise has always been that the majority of the audience will find the ending “satisfying” After watching this episode all I can see it death and heartbreak for almost all the main characters. I can’t see how that is satisfying. It’s depressing. No Disney ending please but at this rate they are all going to end up dead or miserable. Or am I wrong again lol.
I don’t see Jon dying somehow, but Dany? I think Varys is going to kill her. That’s my prediction. That exchange he had with Tyrion made me feel that was going to happen.
cosca,
I think you make a good argument. Overall, I think it’s not only the logic behind things but the sloppy execution. The way it was done it just looks stupid as if everybody thought they could just get back to Dragonstone and it crossed nobodys mind that Cersei might have taken over the island during their absence. They could have avoided that if they had just showed a glimpse of the men who were left there in charge to hold the island. Idk maybe an Unsullied lieutenant/ Dothraki bloodrider could see Euron’s flagship approach and inform the men. Maybe show them ambush Euron while he takes the island. That way they could have instilled a bit of “realism”. Show Euron beat the small garrison of Dothraki/Unsullied and sit on the Dragonstone throne symbolically to make him a bit more menacing. This doesn’t need to take up a whole lot of time, a few poignant character centric scenes with maximum effect. It would set up believable suspense because the viewers would know Dragonstone wasn’t a safe place anymore but Dany & Co would not. The suprise attack on the Dragons could still have happened. Have the ballistas fire on Rhaegal from land as he gets to close to the ground and Euron attack them on sea. Show Team Targaryan’s flagship get hit severely but fight back with their other ships and have Euron subsequently retreat. The outcome would be the same but narratively more grounded and not just for shock value.
Suitably Ironic,
They were at Dragonstone when Euron ambushed them, not Kings Landing.
lmao I live
That bugged the hell out of me with the scsne in front of King’s Landing, too. We just saw Euron take Rhaegal from at least two kilometers with a direct shot to the center of the chest. Then Dany, Grey Worm, and Tyrion are about what? 500 meters from the castle wall with 15 ballistas aimed dead at them and Cersei doesn’t just off them right then and there? Even Drogon was within the range they’d just established five minutes earlier.
I know they don’t shoot scenes in order, but is it really that hard to be consistent? It just felt like another instance where it works one way when the plot needs a surprise dragon death it works totally different when we need a cliffhanger. Even right after Rhaegal was downed with two perfect shots, Daenerys moves toward them to get even closer, then 16 of them all miss her at the same time. Like someone offscreen is paying these guys to miss on purpose so the game can go down to the last second.
Once a very long time ago I was madly in love – then when I noticed it was coming to an end I started saying all the worst things and having the most hateful thoughts towards my partner mostly because I was in pain and didn’t know how to deal with someone I’d loved so much coming to an end
THIS IS WHATS HAPPENING IN THE GOT FANDOM RIGHT NOW
People are hating because they honestly don’t want to say goodbye but it’s coming – we have 2 episodes left AND THEN ITS OVER – ENJOY IT WHILE IT LASTS YOU IDIOTS BECAUSE AFTER THIS ITS DONE
Just now read your review David, I’m surprised you say this episode is divisive as I’ve seen largely overwhelmingly positive comments (a few exceptions and those largely strong Dany supporters). I do agree on it feeling like two episodes merged together though, I wonder if this should have been a seven episode season and these split to give the second half more time to breath as you rightly state. Otherwise not too much to be critical over – I really don’t like people bringing skin colour to Missandei’s death, it feels cheap to me given it’s a fictional show, although warranted in the real world.
Adam,
While there are indeed more contrivances than ever before to manufacture drama, at the end of the day this is a drama, and some of what you said (and certainly a lot of what other people are saying) kind of sounds like you’re complaining about a drama being a drama just as much if not more than the actual contrivances. Drama requires conflict, poorly contrived or otherwise. You might not like the way they’re accomplishing that, and that’s fair (especially with the structure of these last seasons), but it’s still necessary. It’s a major part of why most people were drawn to the story in the first place.
Most of your points are at least valid, but of course Jon’s parentage reveal was going to be nothing but a source of conflict, that’s been pretty clearly laid out since Day One. No one should seriously have been expecting it to result in a “Jon marries Dany and they live happily ever after” scenario, but nowadays seems like a lot of people are projecting their own personal desires for happy endings into something that has actually always been pretty honest in the fact that it simply isn’t that kind of story. Yes, some characters will have fairly happy endings (the revelry early on in this very episode wasn’t just for show), but a lot won’t. This was always inevitable, and I think that’s what really happening is that the specifics of that weren’t what people expected and they can’t reconcile that with what they were hoping for. After all, this story has been in the process of being told in one form or another for over 20 years.
Adam,
Why did you keep watching then?
Dude. Dany is gearing up to slaughter tens of thousands of innocents in the pursuit of power and under the guise of revenge. If Varys is true to his word that he serves the realm then he’s every right to be calling this out, especially as he now knows of a more just and liked potential heir to the throne.
The fact that Dany has been pushed to do great horrors – which is surely going to come next episode – is just great writing and set-up by GRRM/D&D.
Summer,
Sansa is not in love with Jon, she’s in love with power and so bent on revenge that she doesn’t she see is becoming the same as those she seeks to depose. She has twice now put Jon’s life at risk for her own selfish purposes. People just refuse to see it but she is a child of Cersei and LittleFinger and she’s playing the game the way they taught her too.
This show is about power and what people will do to get it, love has nothing to do with it. Jon, I hope, will end up back with Tormund and Ghost — away from all the machinations of the game players. He’s the only decent one of the bunch and he has refused to play their game from the start.
The episode was OK. I don’t love it, but I didn’t hate it. After last week’s bonanza, I knew nothing would live up to it.
The visuals were great, some of the more character driven scenes were well executed too, but there was too much comedy (Tormund crying, seriously?).
It felt somewhat rushed in places, like they’re just in a hurry to get on and finish the show. Although that’s been the case since season 7.
Am I the only one who didn’t want to see Brienne and Jaime get it on? For me, the agony of unrequited love was always what attracted me to their story. Now they’ve bumped uglies that magic is gone and their parting scene seemed a little soap opera like. Although it’s clear he’s being a douche to go do the right thing.
On the other hand I AM pleased Arya told Gendry to take his ladyship and stick it up his bung hole. Totally faithful to her character.
Jon never even ruffled ghosts ear to say goodbye??! WTAF?! Ghost’s sad whine really kicked me in the guts- more than anything this episode! Very badly handled D&D!
Rhaeghal’s death was a cheap shot-although shocking it came way to easily. How the hell did Dany not see a great fleet of frickin Ironborn when she was flying?
And then we have Varys, master of whispers. Basically plotting to kill his queen in a great bloody throne room with his echoes bouncing off the walls.
I see Kings Landing has teleported from being on a narrow peninsula shouldered by hills, to a wide flat plain. Huh.
Poor Missandei- I see a lot of rants on twitter about using a POC as a pawn in the plot- puhlease. Have these guys seen how many non POC have been massacred?
So there we have it folks, we can see the endgame clear as day:
Varys is executed for attempted regicide.
Jaime kills Cersei, and she stabs him at the same time. Brienne follows him south and finds him dying, which he does in her arms.
Dany goes on the rampage, everyone thinks she’s mad (she’s not- but she’s pissed) and she either dies in battle or (more likely), Jon kills her- either a mercy killing or as her foe. This is the Nissa Nissa moment. It may result in Drogon going dragonshit on their asses- lightbringer (though I don’t think the prophecy needs to occur in the right order to work).
Jon dies as his destiny through the LOL is possibly linked to the above. So once that’s fulfilled, he’ll die (like Beric and Mel).
Sandor kills The Mountain, and Arya gives him mercy.
Arya possibly dies too.
Sansa will be QOT7Ks and Tyrion will be her King consort. All the while they’ll know it was because they hadn’t kept silent, like Ned had all those years ago. And the 7 kingdoms bled as a result.
Bittersweet ending and then some. Fade to black.
There is no way Jon will continue to support her if she kills tens of thousands which is very likely. Not sure I see him killing her though unless she turns on him next and he feels forced to. I thought Arya may kill her though but that was used on the Night King, not sure I see her leaving to live in exile but that’s another possibility or her ruling over the ashes which feels way too bitter at this point.
If helping defend Winterfell from an undead army isn’t enough then nothing, it seems, will ever change people’s( read Sansa’s) minds about Dany. I just feel so so sad for Dany. Dany is the character I looked up to when life gave me a shit beating.. back in 2011.. if she can come back from that with three dragons.. I sure can live one more year and see if things will get better.. ( I know it’s foolish to invest in fictional character this much- but I did.. in a desperate pit of depression..it felt like hope).. and it just makes me sad… that she has to be this tragic character in the end.. 🙁
Cosca,
I wouldn’t go as far as barely do shit, it pierced Drogon and nearly caused Dany to fall off. Had Bronn’s shot hit the dragon in the neck it may have died.
Nick Hartley does not sow!
Dany will execute Tyrion of course. How else will viewers turn against her? Not even burning the city will stop fans from wanting her to win. But kill our favourite Lannister- there is no mercy for you.
I keep watching because I still enjoy it. Season 6 was actually my favorite season, in spite of the general backslide of the plot. So many big payoffs to things set in motion decades ago. I love these characters and I love this world. I go to Con of Thrones and dress as Khal Drogo every year. My cat is named Rhaegal. No matter how disappointed I may be by the ridiculous contrivances the writers come up with to make the ending they know has to happen happen, I still want to see it.
In BTS video Dan and David said that Dany “forgot about Euron and his ships.”
Sad that the show I loved will come to an end with writing like this.
One of the best written TV episodes of all time…
The Internet: “Well, it had a lot of problems and I’m mad about XYZ. It sucked!!”
When a show gets too big…. haters gonna hate.
We are getting a proper conclusion to a great show. Can’t ask for anything more.
My general feeling this whole season is just that almost everything needs a bit more time to get the feels right. Aside from episode 2, so much just doesn’t have time to simmer and get the right texture and depth.
I really really liked the funeral and the feast in this episode. I also very much liked Euron’s attack on the fleet. That felt like an earned surprise.
But Dany’s arrival outside the walls didn’t feel developed. A bit of time with her processing her state of mind about the loss of Missandei and another dragon first would have helped. Maybe a scene with Grey Worm, and an attempted strategy session with Tyrion.
Also I get that they are showing Sansa as guarded and keeping her schemes to herself but she needs more TIME to show that she is THINKING. Her reaction to Jon’s news mattered, as did Arya’s and we needed to see something even if it left us guessing about what they might do. Now we know that Jon said he was not a Stark, and Tyrion mentioned to Sansa that he had said that in the past to him. Maybe she thinks that means he can be safe in the South while other Starks were not, or maybe she thinks that means he doesn’t feel like one of them. Either way he has proved his is bone-headed strategically, and she can’t confide in him what her plans are, even if her plan is to make him King of Westeros.
I think the episode would have been much better if 10 minutes or so were cut. This didn’t seem like an episode that needed to be so extended. Seems like they just extended it because it is one of the finale episodes. That finale scene was one of the most intense scenes GoT has ever had.
Here Here! She is my hero too
Couldn’t they just……..
starve Cersei out??? Why do none of Danys advisers offer any advise? Cuz shes just gotta go crazy at the 11th hour? Every single plot development that has weakened her since season 7 has made no sense.
George,
This is almost identical to how I feel/hope(?) it plays out. Arya mercy killing the hound is a great theory.
Someone (Varys? Sansa?Arya?Bron?) will assassinate Cersi and Dany. Tristan has probably become Prince of Dorne and has a grudge against Cersi for breaking up his wedding plans thus causing the death of Myrcella.
EasyEams,
Just saw that. I’m kinda shocked actually. Surely, seeing as they took so much extra time on this last season, the writing should not be that sloppy. I feel like we’re missing something here.
I can’t say it’s exactly book canon ,GRRM does say dragons can be brought down, but he also says it’s harder than the show depicts.
Supposedly weapon makers are more savvy since the time of Aegon the Conqueror could be.
One lesson not learned , after the Battle North of the Wall, is battle tactics for dragons.
Rhaegal’s loss seemed too easy, I thought HBO had an open pocketbook this season for VFX? Sure helped out the billing department , got rid of Ghost too.
I guess at this late date Dany has had no time to consult about the military use of dragons , I am guessing a history existed , Sam would of had access?
Dany goes into battle dressed for the Met Gala Ball and no thought is ever given to dragon barding at all.
I shared my initial thoughts on the live stream at 4am and I haven’t really changed my mind about any of them. I loved this episode. I actually enjoyed the shift from the good tidings at Winterfell to the sudden carnage in the south and as sad as I am that Missandei has died (as I was so desperate for Missandei and Grey Worm to realise their dream and sail to Naath at the end of 806 – to be a part of the sweet part of the bitter), it did feel very much like the Game of Thrones of old. We haven’t had a death like this in several seasons – one caused by human treachery that was executed in cold blood that will have long lasting ramifications. Oddly, I didn’t see Littlefinger’s death in the same light. That felt like it came after a season’s incomprehensible behaviour from the Stark sisters and felt forced. Missandei’s unfortunate demise felt different. It felt raw, meaningful, shocking. It has also solidified Cersei’s villain role and taken her beyond the realm of any redemption because now she has killed a character who was so very good and loved. There’s no coming back from this for her.
I am most concerned for Jon and I am worried that I am going to be desperately sad in two episodes time. Inconsolably sad. I don’t think he will die next week in the battle. I actually don’t know if we will lose a lot of our main characters next week because there is still a near 80-minute finale to come after next week’s episode and if you kill the main sources of the human drama before the end then what will they fill all that time with? I imagine most main characters and many secondary/tertiary characters will make it to the last episode (including Cersei, Jon and Dany) but that’s not to say I don’t expect deaths next week. I am sure there will be shocking deaths, but if you remove the main chess pieces for the throne, what is the final episode going to be filled with? George may have an extended appendix detailing the aftermath of his game of thrones, but for a TV medium, a near hour and a half of endings isn’t terribly compelling if all the action and intrigue is over in the penultimate episode.
In terms of Jon’s chances, I’m now 99% sure he will die, but only because I need to protect myself and am telling myself he will die. There are actually some thoughts that keep reading their heads and I am trying to shut them down to stop myself getting too hopeful.
1. Jon has been in the sacrificial hero arc from very early on. George likes to subvert tropes and expectations. Most people surely now expect Jon to die? What if Jon doesn’t get his wish? He couldn’t sacrifice himself to kill the NK. Maybe he won’t get to sacrifice himself fighting for what he feels is right. Maybe he outlives them all (you’ll be fighting their battles forever), be it north of the wall or in KL. Maybe Jon’s hidden king identity will be subverted too and he remains true to his word that he doesn’t want the throne and disappears north of the wall for the remainder of his days?
2. It felt a bit too neat – tying up his loose ends in the north. It felt like they are trying to get us to think he is going to die. They may have been misdirecting.
3. Ghost is going to live on, which implies Jon might. What if Ghost is a foil for Jon? Ghost gets to go north and be free, but Jon has to live on serving as king and feeling trapped by his duty and honour.
4. There has to be some sweet part to this ending, unless they have been lying and the ending is just mostly pain and misery for the characters they have made us love and throw our lot in with for the past 8 years (linger for books-first fans). You could interpret this as a fair and just ruler taking the throne to rebuild the seven kingdoms who is beloved and takes his duty to his people more seriously than any other. I do think Jon is the realm’s best chance at reconciliation and he is loved as shown by the feast scene. Maybe this is too sweet.
I am clearly in the stage of grief where you try to argue/barter your way out of the inevitable heartbreak. Like I say, I’m 90% convinced he does.
Filming news spoiler:
WhiteSparkle,
That is what I am also talking about.
It is noticeable, so far, that Bruce Cogman and Dave Hill have written better episodes than D&D…. the prime showrunners showing impatience to get the story over with and are not as careful as they were in seasons past? It it the absence of GRRM’s story?
Jon Snowed,
It’s pretty divisive if you read people’s comments on YT and Reddit platforms.
I rather enjoyed the episode, hard to believe there is so much hate and 1 votes on IMDB today. Yes it had some flaws and contrivances which shouldn’t be ignored but I was surprised how quickly 80 mins went. Plenty of very involving and some intense scenes even if clearly not up to the standards of earlier seasons.
cosca,
Wow, your not joking, a 7.7 on imdb. It is not the writing that has gone off the rails, it is this fandom. It is sad that this great show is clearly judged in a different manner than all other entertainment. It is kind of depressing but I tell myself that when future viewers discover this show it will be more fairly judged without this toxic fandom influencing peoples perceptions of the show.
The whole tragedy with Rhaegal being shot down / fleet decimated / Missandei captured and killed could have been easily avoidable. Bran can see the past and present clearly, he was present during the war council. I understand that he is detached most of the time and needs someone to focus his attention on specific topic to find out detailed information, but come on! By this time most of the key characters are familiar with his power! Why none of them tried to do a ‘google search’ right then and there about: what are the assets / forces under Cercei control? Where are her armies located? What weapons do they have? etc. The fact that they failed to utilize their most reliable source of information is beyond me.
I still have questions….
Did Gendry go with John then?
Did Sam and Gilly return to Castle Black or did they go to Sams family home ?
Seeing as Arya and The Hound left 1st are they already inside Kings Landing .
Will Ghost and Nymeria team up ?
Tyrion should have said to Celesi “ To think about your baby And Jamie’s “ out loud in front of Euron letting him know it’s not his….Just to see his reaction
So many questions to answer in such a very small space and time.
Che,
I remember that. Now I’m recalling after last season an interview with the show runners and Lena + Kit were part of the convo, or maybe just one of them, where the former said they wrote a sexy scene for the latter they would like. I can’t find it now but I distinctly remember it being talked about online about it being an odd comment and what it could mean and then months later we saw what you are referring.
WhiteSparkle,
They didn’t. Remember the dialogue, Dany wanted the people to know she attempted a peaceful resolution so when she rains fire down on Kingslanding they should blame Cersei for not submitting.
I only read this site and twitter, largely my perception is that’s been widely positive but with a few haters on twitter like yeahclarke who are angry that Dany could turn out to be a villain. Indeed most criticism is aimed at the likely arc of Dany rather than anything else in the episode other than one of two haters complaining that killing Missandei was somehow racist. Reading people like Kim Renfro, Luka Neito, Jo Robinson they are complimentary and that reassured me also.
fdr,
I think it was Jon. He even gave her that look in the beginning of the celebration, as if he was urging her to do something they had agreed previously. And it makes sense: Jon or at least Sansa should have noticed that there was something beween Arya and Gendy, so they should have been working on creating preconditions for Gendry to propose. I meen, Jon should have seen him as a worthy guy and Arya’s own choice, so he would have wanted his little sis to be happy and Sansa would have wanted her to mary at least a formal “lord”.
Unfortunately, Arya… I don’t even know where to start. I had a feeling that Arya’s tomboyishness won’t go unpunished, but I didn’t expet it to happen in such a gutwrecking way. Girl! You broke your vow: you promised to be a family to Gendry! Doesn’t matter, whether it’s “you” or “not you” – you gave your word. And you broke it. And what is this “I don’t need allies”? You survived, cause someone was always looking after you. Ned’s poor bones should rise from the crypts for the second time and give a proper flogging to his younger daugther (and don’t even let me start on Sansa). In general, the last of the Starks are toning into new Cesrseis: anyone who isn’t us is an enemy and all that jazz. Now I can only hope that House Stark gets ripped out route and stem along with the whole Northern independence idea, as those who don’t take responsibility for their allies dezerve zero independence and only compromitate true independence seakers in both fictional and real world. Wildlings are the only ones who have erned independence in my eyes at this point.
Someone posted on reddit a picture from the episode that has starbucks coffee cup in the winterfell… lols 🙂
Toxic Nerd Culture. They hate anything that gets too popular. Sort of mimics their real lives.
The standoff outside King’s Landing at the end is one of the show’s dumbest setpieces. There is no reason whatsoever that Cersei couldn’t just kill them all right there (between the ballistas that we’ve just seen shred ships and the fact that Dany has maybe forty people with her and Cersei has tens of thousands), and she’s explicitly being characterized as bound by no regard for norms such as parlay. Missandei’s final word was pretty cool, I will admit.
Even accepting that the rudiments of this plot could have worked, things are proceeding at such a blinding pace that the plot has no time to breathe. This is epitomized by Jon’s parentage reveal, which basically nobody treats as anything other than a plot device in the game of thrones. We don’t even get a proper reaction from Arya. The show feels like the abridged version of itself at this point.
I know some people are getting very upset that the signs are pointing to Dany becoming the “mad queen” and probably not making it through the end of the series as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Meanwhile, attentive book readers have seen this coming for a decade.
You can’t possibly expect to be seen as the “savior” when you invade with good intentions and execute your enemies by setting them on fire. Dany is done. And Jon will not sit the Iron Throne either because HE DOES NOT WANT IT. This episode set up the clear heir to the throne (if there even is one) and that is Gendry.
And while Gendry wants to marry Arya, he will likely marry Sansa (who knows what makes for a good political move), ending the series on the promise Ned and Robert made to each other, marrying their kids to each other and having them rule the kingdom.
All I want to say is that I think Daenerys being on a road to full-blown vengeance madness is in character and so is Jaime returning to Cersei. Bron, same thing.
I’m good.
It seems Dany forgot Jorah’s words of wisdom:
“The common people pray for rain, health, and a summer that never ends. They don’t care what games the high lords play.”
I’m liking the season so far but it is also disappointing. Everything is just so condensed, it’s like this happens and that happens but what about the why and how?
It feels like they are ticking off GRRM’s bullet points to reach the end. That is if they are still going for his ending.
She knows if she kills Dany, that the dragon kills her. Hence why there was a standoff. Cersei doesn’t want to die. It makes perfect sense.
This felt like Game of Thrones of old. Great episode.
David Rosenblatt I enjoyed your refreshing take/views of things.
I cannot believe the treatment Dany is receiving…from Jon, the North and the writers.
Jon refused the entreaties of the woman who passionately loves him.
Arya refused the youthful entreaties of a Lord who loves her.
Jaime Lannister finally proved (what I’ve known all along) that he is worthless and rotten to the core by refusing the entreaties of the woman who loves him.
So Kit Harrington was obviously alluding to ‘A Lover’s Complaint’ when he termed the episode “Shakespearian?” Indeed it was.
Poor Rhaegal and Messandei! I weep just as profoundly as Dany and Grey Worm, respectively. What a tragedy.
Now from the sublime to the ridiculous. I have never laughed so much as at this video!
“Let me explain something to you now. Who the real enemy is; Cersei. Let me tell you something Cersei: You better pull out your BEST mean outfit BITCH, cause if we fought THESE MOTHERFUCKERS? we finny tare yo ass up! SHAME! HO! SHAME!”
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDz5lro_hrM&w=560&h=315%5D
Agree on the above points.
I love Jaime and Brienne but I was surprised when they started ripping off each other’s clothes. THAT aspect of their relationship needed more time to develop. Her “knighting” scene played out beautifully because there was a subtlety in their unspoken love for each other.
Jon not giving Ghost a proper good-bye really bothered me. Direwolf vs dragon; Stark vs Targaryen…whatever. Hug your gorgeous, sad, brave puppy dog!
The entrance to Kings Landing confused me as well. It took me a minute to figure out where they were.
Overall, I enjoyed the episode, despite being heartbroken about lovely Misandei’s death. Glad that Tormund gets to live free and wild in the North with the other wildlings.
Unless George intends to write another series of books about the next civil war that would break out across Westeros should Gendry, a legitimised bastard with no proof of his parentage, be sat on the throne, then I don’t see this happening. The lords of Westeros are not going to allow that to happen without challenging it. Cersei is tolerated because she is absolutely insane and they’re all afraid of her, but Gendry, a good character with no proof to back up his birthright, wouldn’t have such an easy time sitting on that iron chair. He wouldn’t have the realm behind him. Varys is worried about Dany not having the support of the lords (when compared to Jon) because she’s a woman – can you imagine how they would feel about the bastard son of a prostitute/peasant (can’t remember if she was a prostitute)? Legitimised or no, there is no proof of his birthright and the lords of the realm are too proud and bigoted to allow the son of a prostitute/peasant to sit on the throne.
Inga,
> I think it was Jon.
Finally some politics from Jon. I like to think he rather told Dany for political reasons than because he wanted to find a match for his independent sister (if for anyone he did it for Daenerys).
Anyway, it makes it all the more ironic that he expects his sisters to keep his parentage secret while he doesn’t with Gendry (true, he didn’t promise and Gendry didn’t ask so either, but Davos clearly said “he was meant to keep that to himself”)
WhiteSparkle,
I totally agree. I also love the show, but it seems like the writers have just been in a hurry to wrap things up for the last couple seasons and have the characters doing all sorts of stupid things they would never have done in the books. My biggest problem with this episode was Euron’s ambush. They have (had) two dragons, did it not occur to any of these now seasoned warriors to, you know, do some aerial reconnaissance before approaching an island super close to King’s Landing? And did they seriously just forget about the dragon-killing crossbows? Did they not think Cersei would build a whole lot more of them? That whole part, with the deaths of Rhaegal and Missandei, was lazy and seemed super contrived to push Dany into turning into the mad queen.
You’re dead right about that. With a normal show you’d judge it against the quality of other shows. But for some reason, Game of Thrones can only every be compared to a) itself or b) the books, and thus always comes up lacking
Its sad seeing Danys final tragic character trajectory happening so fast.
The seeds of her violent ruthless nature were planted for a long time.
But to wake up one morning and see seeds as full grown oak trees?
Che,
I agree, Gendry can maybe hold the Stormlands because his overlord gives him support and he’s a Baratheon, but no way that the rest of Westeros would accept him as their King. Similarly for those who predict Tyrion and Sansa in the end: Sansa could have the support of three kingdoms, but Tyrion has not even the support of the Westerlands, and why would e.g. the Reach or Dorne follow them? And from Sansa’s own perspective, the Reach and Dorne should have all reason to claim independence. I find it even hard that Dorne would follow Jon, when they know he’s the son of Lyanna.
It’s either Daenerys, Jon, Jon with Sansa (a policial union!) or Jon with Yara 😉
(or no throne at all and 7 independent kingdoms founding the Economic Community of Westeros)
It would be funny if Jon and Sansa had to tell Arya and Bran to finally grow up because someone of these two will have to do their duty as lord/lady of Winterfell.
No matter what happens next, Dany can’t be happy.
Jon can’t be happy.
Bran can never feel happiness
Arya can’t be happy. And I’m wondering where the hell is sweet in this ? Sam surviving ? As much as I like the guy, his ridiculous plot armour is too thick to neglect . Also Missandei died. Let me go and cry again
Dany threatened to burn cities to the ground during season 2. During seasons 5 and 6 they continued to showcase that he tenancies were more evil.
Not sure how that makes the turn “fast”. It was always there. It got triggered by her friend getting killed in front of her.
It has been well established that Missandei is a very good translator but has no real tactical abilities in war. And yet it is her last word that Dant will cling to to justify burning innocent people.
Eurons ships has scorpions only on one side, so just fly behind them and burn them all. I am not upset on how the story is going, only on the stupid things they show us how it is happening like we all saw the north is defeated, nearly no human left and now they only lost half their armies. There are too much points that are just not comprehensive so I understand why a lot of people are upset and disappointed.
DCM,
Good point. So Jaime is an asshole to hurt Brienne, regardless whether he’s going to take care of the Cersei problem.
Ha ha! Very good!
I’ve gotta admit, they shocked me with Arya and Gendry. Once he got legitimized at the beginning, I thought it’d be clear sailing for the Arya + Gendry ship. (So now what happens if she’s preggers?)
Best thing now seems they should have flown Bran south on a dragon, snuk him into KL, and put him in some hidden place in KL, and let the NK come for him there.
fdr,
“Btw, I am also wondering, if Euron knows that Tyrion knows that Cersei is pregnant, doesn’t he then also know that the child isn’t his, even when Cersei is pretending that? Any repercussions here?”
______
Moon tea. Bye bye incest bastard baby.
RIP Tyvek Lannister
Way way too chick flicky for me. I can do without all the romantic angst and emotion.
They said Dany FORGOT about Euron and his ships????? *headsmack*
COME ON.
Yes, I suspect that many are right, that we all have notions of what we want for our characters, and as they don’t seem to work out, we will lash out. But also, some of the complaints are valid.
And count me in the EWWW corner for Jamie and Brienne’s love scene. I couldn’t even watch it. LOL It was no surprise to me that he left, he’ll never be free of Cersei, they are intertwined, I expect to the death.
Yes, you are right – Euron, if he is not as dumb as the the showrunners seem to think the fans are, must know, that when Tyrion knows Cersey is pregnant, it must have been already before he had a chance to do that.
But I do not longer trust the showrunners to take care of this although Euron gave a weired look when he heard it.
WhiteSparkle,
You have to remember Dany’s attempted negotiation was not because she thought it would be successful it was so she could say to the Lords and Commoners that hey I tried but Cersei is not reasonable. Also if you still need character development in what we knew was the final season then you were never going to be happy with the final season…just saying
I would say you have some of it right. The Mountain is on Arya’s list, so I don’t think she gets sidetracked. Both Cersei and the Mountain are the only ones left on her list.
I think you are right that she will come to Sandor’s aid with the mountain and then finish Sandor with a mercy kill. I’m not sure if they will let Arya be the one to kill Cersei. It’s a bit like letting Jon kill the NK; it’s the expected choice. I think if she would have been in Dany’s corner, then she would have volunteered to help take care of Cersei while the troops and Rhaegal had time to recover. With her FM skills, she can read people and she couldn’t trust Dany.
So what is Dany’s tragic flaw then? Was her one huge mistake burning the Tarley’s? She made a similar mistake executing the boy in Meereen. I think her biggest flaw is her desire for the IT above all else. She did snap out of it for a time when she came to Jon’s (and the world’s aid), but what did that get her? She lost 1/2 her army and now Jon won’t put her first. Jon still puts his family over her. As Sam asked, would she be as willing to give up the crown for her people as Jon did? She reminds me a bit of Stannis at this point. Stannis started off with a huge powerful army which ended up dwindling down. Dany really has been left isolated. At least Tyrion is sticking by her side. Everyone else has died or turned against her. I would have at least re-called the 2nd sons and waited to attack KL until they arrived. I don’t know if I agree that Jon will be the one to kill Dany though.
I have a feeling we have seen the last of Sam and Gilly. It’s also possible we’ve seen the last of Sansa unless they just show some final shots in the episode 6 to wrap things up with all of our characters. I was really sad during the Jon’s goodbyes, because I think we were seeing the last of many of our favorite characters (at least in regards to any contribution to the end game). I think Brienne, Sansa, Bran, Sam, Gilly, Tormund, and Ghost may have all finished their arcs. I hope I’m wrong and they still have something in mind for Bran with his 3ER, but I have a feeling the show has left most of the magic behind now as they focus on the human drama.
I think, on the main, the reaction to fans depends on who they “like” among the POV characters on the show.
Dany lovers are salty today. Sansa haters continue to hate. The shippers — all the shippers, everywhere — are both happy and upset.
I thought the episode was great and felt much more like GRRM than anything we’ve seen in a while. The divisions between Jon and Dany seemed real. The way out of the mess – a marriage – is foreclosed by Dany’s lust for power (she is plainly a power hungry usurper now, there’s no spinning out of that) and Jon’s squeamishness over not wanting to marry his Aunt.
Characters act based on their motivations and nature, everything rolls out logically. Conflict happens and drama results.
By the way, the scorpions on the walls of KL are mounted to guard against an air attack. They can’t depress and lower their angle of attack to hit Dany that close to the wall. And they are beyond arrow range.
Jon’s goodbye to Lyanna absolutely broke my heart. After seeing the preview, I’d wondered which pyre he’d be setting alight and Lyanna was the perfect choice: named after his mother, niece to his Lord Commander, the fierce little bear who’d made him king, defended his home and in the end gave everything for the protection of the North. RIP House Mormont.
Loved each and every one of the moments between Tormund and Jon. If they couldn’t give us some nice fuzzy moments between Jon and Ghost, at least we got these – the friendship between Tormund and Jon is so genuine and tender. Tormund’s reassurance to Jon that he’ll always have the North inside him was touching. I’d have loved to see how Tormund got on in the South, but it’s time for him to go home.
Daenerys looked so lost and unsure at that feast. I’d hoped Jon could reassure her, but even if she believes him, she can’t trust what others will do. That fleeting glimpse at Jon’s room made me wonder – it’s not the Lord’s chamber as he’s given that to Sansa, and it looked too nice a room for Catelyn Stark to allow a bastard. Robb’s room perhaps? That’s my headcanon now, anyway.
I wish they’d included Sansa, Arya and Tyrion’s reactions to the news of Jon’s parentage. I know those scenes can get repetitive, but the omissions felt sloppy, considering the build-up. And come on, we live for reaction shots – just look at all the YouTube videos devoted to that purpose!
While she did break her word to Jon, I understood why Sansa did as she did. She doesn’t trust Daenerys and as she put it to Jon last season, “you’re good at this.” That Jon is focused on something other than Winterfell must also have crossed her mind – he wouldn’t ever take it from her, but their bannermen would eventually try to seat him.
Could have done without setting it on a rocking boat about to be attacked, but glad Tyrion and Varys had a moment to start scheming over the succession, setting the stage for their later conversation on Dragonstone. I’d argue that Jon’s already proved that he can temper Daenerys’ worst impulses (talking her out of attacking KL last season), but I could understand their fear that his desire to prove he’s not out to steal the throne from her would lead him to submit on more issues than he’d usually.
Dragonstone transforming from the site of Dany’s joyous, triumphant return to Westeros to one of pain and sorrow following Euron’s attack was so haunting. I wonder how many scenes we’ll watch back after the series is done with heavy hearts, knowing what’s to come.
Missandei’s death was devastating – beautiful performances by Nathalie Emmanuel, Jacob Anderson and Emilia Clarke. Given the reception they’ve had in Westeros, I don’t blame Missandei one bit for wanting to take every one of them out. Exquisite job (as usual) by Lena Headey – she manages to portray Cersei as both human and monster so effortlessly. That jibe about the “Breaker of Chains”!
Rhaegal’s not dead until I see his corpse mounted on Euron Greyjoy’s ship. I refuse to believe it. Supremely irked at Daenerys for flying him out even though he was still healing – no wonder he couldn’t dodge as readily.
My MVP remains Kit Harington. Jon’s not particularly emotive, but he feels as much as any of them (probably more, the ball of broody angst he is) and Kit had so much to convey this episode, from the tribute at the start, where he had to communicate somehow that what they’d been through and the people they’d lost would mean something, to going from relieved celebration with his friends and wanting a good night’s sleep after everything to reassuring his aunt/love that he’s not out to get her, to standing up to his family on Daenery’s behalf (“if you only trust the people you grow up with, you won’t make many allies”) to telling his family he’s not one of them (I repeat, wish we’d seen Arya’s reaction as she’d tell him not to be so stupid!), to the delighted joy at Gilly and Sam’s news, to bidding adieu to Tormund and Ghost. I wish he’d give Ghost a snuggle, but perhaps he didn’t want to make it more painful than it was. In many ways, Jon was the emotional centre of this episode, if not this season so far. He’s got an uphill battle now that the Army of the Dead no longer compels his friends and allies to work together. I don’t envy him the wars to come, though I am so curious where he goes from here, especially as his name remains on everyone’s lips.
This. In the end people do what they want to do and Bronn wanted his castle AND his buddies. He also knows Cersei’s not one for honouring promises to people she doesn’t think anything of – she only honoured repaying the Iron Bank because she would get something out of it.
ChoppinBroccoli,
It wasn’t moments. It would have taken time to organise the army before they marched to Winterfell. And yes, Jon does share a greater blame. Dany asked him not to say anything – especially to Sansa and she gave him the reason why he shouldn’t. And he did it anyway. If there’s lots of blabbing going on, let’s not forget who started it. Jon.
GeekFurious,
Meanwhile, attentive book readers have seen this coming for a decade
I haven’t read the books but a certain poster who has read them used to call out me and a few others repeatedly for stating the possibility of Dany turning “mad” in the end. At length he would describe how we are so wrong because we don’t know her like from the books. It made me question my comprehension of characterization and foreshadowing clues. I feel bad for this poster right now because they are heavily invested in Dany having a good ending replete with a sense of belonging and family.
Adam,
While I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment, it was extremely well-written and well-argued, and I loved the sports metaphors. 🏀
On a semi-related note… I wonder how much lower the total body count would’ve been if Dany had simply nuked the Red Keep at the beginning. Yes, maybe a bunch of people would’ve been fried, but how many people have died in the battles since the initial invasion plan failed?
I’m with Missandei: At this point Dany should go full Dracarys! while she still has a nuke left.
Sean C.,
I agree. What makes it even more disheartening is how they essentially told us it won’t be rushed (taking two years to do it right) but will come off as being adhesive as there’s not that much more story to tell.
Have Jon show affection for Ghost? Something so simple but meaningful? Nope.
Show a Stark family reaction after big reveal Jon true parentage? Something fandom has looked forward to for a long time? Nope.
Destroy all love matches or potential pairing that fans would feel warm fuzzies over? Yep.
The nihilistic story of the human characters is just as fantastical as the dragons, faceless men, and a 3 eyed raven.
I do hold small hopes for next 2 episodes to have some upturn.
PromiseMeNed,
I am trying hard not to come off as a Sansaphobe… but couldn’t she keep her promise longer than ten minutes? She swore to keep the secret that poor Ned kept secret his whole adult life despite much greater pressures.
Varys and Tyrion are right: Now that 8 people know the “secret” it’s no longer a secret.
Why, Sansa, why?
Ten Bears,
Per the Inside the Episode, she gamed out that Tyrion would tell Varys and the wheels to depose Dany would start turning.
Sure, Jan.
Dyanna,
Varys may very well try to take out Dany. And as she promised, she will roast him alive with dragonfire.
Dany is really getting shafted this season. After all she did to save the North, she’s being treated like an interloper.
P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?
WhiteSparkle,
I totally agree with you – the show is disappointing in comparison to the books by way of character development and dialogue
Because she is a power hungry usurper with no right to the Throne, you mean? And she doesn’t want people to know she has no claim? Because then they might support the man who does?
I see.
Steel_Wind,
Jon doesn’t want the throne, as he repeatedly says. Dany is completely correct that if that’s the case he shouldn’t tell anyone — she specifically predicts exactly what Sansa will do, while Jon denies it.
ygritte,
I am concerned at the moment for the ending of this story. I am also worried that GRRM (and as a result D&D) wanted to break the wheel so badly himself, that he has come up with an ending that is just bleak and hopeless. I wonder if the bulk of audience members are ready for a story where most, of not all, the characters they most care about are either killed or have a deeply unhappy ending to their stories. It may be more realistic and it may be unexpected, but I feel for most, it would be deeply unsatisfying.
I feel so nervous. If this goes as bleak as I am expecting, I may have to write my own fanfic ending for my peace of mind!! I haven’t written fan fiction in ages, not since my early twenties Harry Potter obsession days.
ygritte,
I wasn’t that particular poster and I haven’t read the books, but I also felt that Dany would still choose “home” above “throne”, a.k.a. Jorah’s statement “you have a gentle heart”. Also Tyrion and Jon seemed to think so, as well as the Essosi like Missandei or Grey Worm. But maybe Jon was right and the people will “see her for what she truly is”. Also the Mad King was “such a charmer” before his malady, according to Pycelle.
I have the impressing that Daenerys becomes more agressive/paranoid when she gets singled out (like in the Winterfell Hall) and that is not going to get better, especially because she also likes to be more special than the rest. I can accept it’s going the other way than I had hoped, after generations of incest the apple shouldn’t fall far from the tree. After she reacted so negatively to not being the last Targaryen anymore in E2, I changed my mind.
The way Jon spoke at the ceremony and was not mentioned by name when all cheered for their victory, gives me courage he will make it in the end. If he were a goner, they would have given him more spotlight.
I understand. Humans do more damage than death itself.
This episodes combines great storytelling with rubbish though…
Dany lost so many forces because Euron snuck 3 times in a row. On Yara, on the Unsullied at Casterly Rock, and now he hides behind a mountain. From there, he shoots “smart” crossbows and kills Rhaegal. After that, Dany does not turn to burn the ships from the back (the ballistas were on the front).
Why do you ruin smart things with nonsense like this ???
B,
If D&D took 5+ years to write every season, the writing would probably be better. But by the last season the child actors would be retired and the older actors would be dead.
Che,
There’s no coming back from this for her.
I think it’s safe to say, that there wasn’t a coming back for her since she blew up the sept of Baelor and her last remaining son committed suicide. But I get what you mean. To be frank, I admired Daenery’s self control in this moment. And I am fully behind her: Fire and blood!
This season has been such a disaster, I don’t even know where to start. Normally I wouldn’t really care, but this show was so good through six seasons (contrary to others, season 6 was my favorite) I cannot believe how much the showrunners quit on it. Ever since D&D were announced to run that Star Wars show, it’s like their time was divided and they basically handed over the reigns to an intern. That’s what it looks like on the screen.
They’ve basically ignored every prophecy, clue, backstory, etc. Jon has been utterly useless this season, Sansa is still whining since the middle of season 6, Dany’s huge army was dismissed entirely, Tyrion and Varys are basically statues, Bran has done absolutely nothing, it’s a complete mess. To top it all, the characters that do have screen time this season are the ones I never liked in the first place – Cersei and Euron. It’s like they met before the season and said whatever the audience wants to see most, let’s do the opposite of that. With the story they are giving us now, they easily could have made season 7 10 episodes and fit this season into the last 3.
What books?
WhiteSparkle,
didnt realise You speak for everyone lol
Benioff cameo https://twitter.com/WightsKing/status/1125330391538257920
Am I the only one who doesn’t think Cersei is pregnant?
Can anyone answer these questions?
What did Dany do to Sana’a to have her distrust?
What did Dany do to Arya to have her distrust?
Why can’t Dany see the iron fleet from hundreds/thousands of feet up in the sky?
Why wouldn’t the ruthless and always opportune cersi kill everyone or tried to have killed everyone and the terms meeting.( I can understand the dragon pit due to the disadvantage)
Why is Gendry acting like a 14 year old virgin?
Was Jaimie drunk enough to hit that?
Why would Bronn play either side so badly?
Where is pod now?
Why does Jon not care about ghost so much to even say goodbye?
Why was Dorne even brought into the show just to be an afterthought?
Why hasn’t bran done anything meaningful at all to help?
I feel the same way. We haven’t seen him show any real reason for being brought back from the dead. I find the reason some give, that he was the one to unite the armies to fight the NK, too nebulous and feel there needs to be something more specific. Beric was brought back time and time again for one fight scene where he saves Arya’s life. Jon is brought back for the over-generalised reason to unify allies and armies. Couldn’t the Lord of Light simply find someone else? Why pick the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen as the messenger boy. It feels he hasn’t yet served his ultimate purpose for being brought back from death. If his story ends with him dying in Dany’s war or even worse, in Cersei’s hands as a hostage, then his arc will feel incomplete and utterly without ending. Rewatching his parts of the show will be bloody difficult if that’s how he’s destined to go out.
Its crazy because at one point I truly felt the death and heartbreak would come in the war of the Long Night
Why would Sansa tell Tyrion about Aegon now? Wouldn’t AeJon/Dany and everyone else being distracted by that revelation put AeJon in danger as he heads to battle with Cersei? Everyone’s focus should be on the battle and now there will be divided focus.
Sean C.,
It also means Daenerys is well aware that she’s not taking the throne anymore because it is her birthright or to save the people, she is taking it because she can (or thinks she can), echoing back to Jorah’s description of Aegon the Conqueror. Stannis also claimed it was his duty/birthright to be King of Westeros (being a bit hypocritical, in my view, he wanted it, and duty is a welcome excuse) but Daenerys cannot claim that anymore.
The parallels between Stannis and Dany and Mance (7 wildling tribes) and Jon are also strong. After saying that, Jon did bend the knee though.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I totally agree. It was Tyrion and Shae all over again. But Brienne isn’t Shae and I don’t think she will stay put in WF.
I definitely see what you mean and I think I am struggling to explain myself, but I was talking more from the audience point of view. Her blowing up the sept, while terribly evil, made her a bit more likeable as a villain (to me). She outsmarted then all and took a terrible risk and choice, all for power and she took out the High sparrow, who was pretty hated. The collateral damage of Margaery and Tommen (less so) losing their lives would have upset some fans, but I think people still liked her being on screen because she was a fun and intriguing villain. Now she has absolutely burned her last olive branch – has sent Bronn to kill her beloved (to the fan base) brothers and has killed one of the few wholly good and likeable characters in the show, she’s lost it with the audience – I loved to hate her before; now I just hate her.
Ten Bears,
You know what I just realized: Cercei has brown eyes. Sansa has green. Uh oh. Call backs to season 1. Hmm.
JamesL,
Yes, these are the fans that since 2011, when ADWD came out, have been imagining a specific ending for this story and are now pissed off that it isn’t going their way.
6.54 rating on Tower of the Hand, that’s the lowest I remember for any episode.
The only way I see Dany coming back from here is she realises she is pregnant but that feels very remote. This feels like the perfect storm to go fire and blood, get in touching distance of ruling over the ashes and have one our hero’s take her out. Cersei will die before Dany so my money is on either ARya or Jon killing her.
ygritte,
Sophie/Sansa’s eyes are grey (in the show).
Azor Asshai,
This episode was chock full of losses, heartbreaks, and disappointments. I felt so bad when Arya blew off Gendry’s proposal. I was distressed that Sansa broke her promise so quickly. I felt so bad for Dany that she was being treated like an outsider by the Northerners after sacrificing so much to save them; at the victory party she looked so forlorn. The only saving grace….
Arya & The Hound Road Show – The Sequel!!!!
👸🏻🐕
What was his line? Something like…
Sandor: “If I get hurt, will you leave me to die again?
Arya: “Probably.”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If nothing else, I pray S8e6 ends with these two riding off together, insulting each other.
Sandor: “You may have saved the world, but you’re still one cold little bitch.”
Arya: “And you’re still the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms… Hey, you hungry?”
Sandor: “Always.”
Arya: “There’s an inn up ahead. Let’s get some ale and chicken. Maybe Hot Pie’s still there.”
Sandor: “What the f*ck’s a Hot Pie?
[Fade to black. Roll credits.]
I too thought “is this episode ever ending?” Not because I was complaining – I love lengthy episodes – but because it really felt like two episode in one.
I’ll go straight to the major issues:
Dany: I’ve never been a fan of hers. I’ve never been a hater neither. Actually, I’ve always wanted to like her, but I just couldn’t. I couldn’t help but to think she was pretentious, impulsive and, sometimes, way to merciless. I don’t deny her good side and the good she has done, but I’ve never been entirely sold on her “goodness”. So this turn of events doesn’t really look to me like a change of behaviour, but more like an escalation of behaviour. She thinks she’s the good one, the one who will save everyone and she would do horrible things in order to accomplish what she thinks it’s her destiny (she already has, when she crucified all the masters just out of revenge, without knowing anything about them).
The last of the Starks: I agreed with Jon in telling his sisters/cousins about his real parents. I mean… they’re his sisters. It’s not just about Jon, it’s also about them. Now they know that their father was never unfaitful to their mother. They’ve been apart from each other for so long, and they’re his family. Of course he has to tell them.
Sansa: she doesn’t like Daenerys one bit. She’s no fool, she knows Dany saved the North. And yet, she can’t like her. It’s not just girls’ rivalry. Something just doesn’t feel right to Sansa. Can’t really blame her. As Arya said, she’s trying to protect her family. She’s scared for Jon and she doesn’t trust Daenerys. Yes, she bretrays Jon’s sectret and tells it to Tyrion, but I think she does for a greater purpose. She’s seen her father die for honesty and loyalty and she doesn’t want to see Jon do the same. This doesn’t mean she isn’t loyal or honest. But she doesn’t want to be so to the point of being blind. She doesn’t like the situation and seeks for Tyrion’s help (someone who she trusts and appreciate).
Tyrion and Varys: can’t really blame them either. Varys has always served the realm, not a ruler in particular. And if he thinks Daenerys is threatening the people of the realm (and at the moment it look like she is) it’s perfectly normal that he turns his back on her. Tyrion desperately wants to believe in her but can’t help to consider all the signs that show her as a tyrann, especially after what Sansa and Varys told him.
Cersei: I’ve never believed her pregnancy, even more so after her scene with Tyrion. She probably (and smartly) used her false pregnancy to keep Jamie – and now Euron -bound to her, and to make Tyrion understimate her.
Poor sweet Missandei. After Grey Worm survived the great war, I thought that, after all, they really could’ve had an happily after. Stupid me.
Predictions: If Arya is heading south, that means she’s on a mission. We know she has still Cersei’s name on her list. If she doesn’t kill Cersei, then leaving winterfell alone (well, now sheìs with the Hound) makes no sense. So I think she will kill Jamie and take his face and then she will go for Cersei (this makes also sense with the Valonqar prophecy)
Jon will probably have to kill Dany (another fulfilling of a prophecy: the prince that was promised killing his Nissa Nissa). He’ll either sit on the Iron Throne or die, leaving a vacant throne. At this point, Tyrion could sit on the throne as the last of Cersei’s heirs. Maybe there’s a third possibility for Jon. He kills Dany and he’s so broken at this point that he goes away, maybe to join the free folk and be reunited with Ghost (“You have the North in you” – Tormund.)
Interesting recap. I have to say that I did not experience your Pacing concerns, although I do see that this could’ve been broken up into two episodes.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
I agree – I loved this episode and was even okay with no one seeing Euron. The scene of Grey Worm and Missandei holding hands and smiling being the only signal that the attack was coming (This is Game of Thrones after all). Although I knew something bad was going to happen, it still was all quite shocking, which is Of course what Nutter was going for. I found myself screaming at the TV that Daenerys should circle around and flame Euron from the rear. Still, I get that D & D wanted to see his demise until at least episode five. All in all I thought this episode was brilliant!! more after I rewatch.
In the show, Danaerys’ eyes are more green than blue. That may be meaningless as in the books she has purple eyes – then again, that scene between Mel and Arya doesn’t happen in the books…. 🤔
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Presumably, the weapons are on swivels and can swing around. Swivel guns were used on ships from long ago. It would be foolish to have a weapon that can’t swivel, and Tyburn isn’t foolish, just creepy. That’s my guess.
Reading your post makes me more certain Jon will be the one to take out Dany after she has delivered fire and blood. This way he can still be the Prince who is promised.
Euron knows the game, he would know that the detail of Cersei being pregnant would be known. What is it Davis said “Lord Varys knows what you had for breakfast”.
kathy,
That Sansa didn’t tell Jon she didn’t/couldn’t keep her promise to him put him at greater risk.
I always envisioned Aerys II as being Bug F**king Nuts, vs Dany being Able Sugar Angry… which would be different.
Not time to give my thoughts, but I will say that I’m truly amazed by the reaction to this episode. Read into that what you will.
Maybe she will face her duty vs love moment and surprise us all.
Jade,
Ned promised to keep a secret and kept it – Jon couldn’t. He is ultimately a pretty boy weakling, I think. He pledges that Dany is his queen, then does what he pleases because his loyalty is just words. Bad husband material, bad leader material.
Apollo,
“On the other hand I AM pleased Arya told Gendry to take his ladyship and stick it up his bung hole. Totally faithful to her character.”
________
While I felt bad Arya blew off Gendry, I chuckled when I read what you wrote. 😆
Knight of the Walkers,
I wanna know!!!!
Ten Bears,
P.S. Sansa, what is your problem?
Long answer short: She learned a great deal from Cersei.
GRRM and the showrunners used her storyline as a template to mirror and explain how Cersei turned out the way she did. To create empathy so you as a watcher or reader are enabled to feel with the characters.
As for me, I have to say: My empathy and compassion for Sansa was used up, when she snarked about how she should feed the armies and the dragons. While that was a reasonable question, the way how she asked it, was way out of line. Yes, tone matters.
And after she betrayed Jon – again, I might add! – for me, she changed to the dark side. This betrayal – of a vow she gave in front of a weirwood tree – was not driven by love for her family, not even by fear for their security (Because Sansa is not stupid. She sure as hell knows how dangerous this information is!). This betrayal was driven only by hunger for power. Sansa is a new Cersei in the making, and while the old game of thrones is not even finished yet, she started a new one. Guess who will be a major player in it…
Jon didn’t promise Dany he would keep his birthright a secret. In fact, he outright told her he had to tell his sisters. She pleaded with him, but he held firm. That’s hardly weak. Weak would have been putting aside his own wishes to do the honourable thing by his family to satisfy Daenerys’ desperate pleas.
Summer,
Well we actually don’t know if behind the scenes they had sent a Raven to Dragonstone to see if things were ok there or not. Maybe they had and that’s why they proceeded with confidence. We don’t know since we aren’t being provided with behind the scenes details and actions. In my opinion if Dragonstone was overtaken by Euron they would have known. Tyrion and Co would have to have left a small contingent on the island who would have informed them.
What’s with the low score on imdb? I am truly shocked.
This is why I feel for Dany. She’d lost so much. I’d even say she’d lost the most. Despite everything she did, she’s not appreciated. If I were her, I’d feel bitter.
Sam,
Burn everything down. That is what I want her to do.
Dee Stark,
I don’t know if it’s a reliable metric. I loved this episode but I get why people were not overly ecstatic about it.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I agree Sana’a is the new Cersei
Overall, I enjoyed the episode. I don’t blame Jon one bit for telling Sansa and Arya who he really is but I do think we could have done with their reactions. I also feel Daenerys should never have asked him to stay quiet. I get that he threatens her ‘claim’, well now she has none, but he can’t keep something like that from the sisters he grew up with. I did like Arya being a mediator between Sansa and Jon in recognising what Daenerys did.
Dany just seemed very isolated in this episode which I think was summed up when she said the people of Westeros have never looked at her like the people of Essos, as a saviour.
Mostly, I was annoyed that Jon didn’t even give Ghost a hug and seems to be abandoning him. I can understand why Jon would think Ghost would be better off with Tormund but it just feels like a way to get Ghost off-screen. I could have done with a much more emotional scene. And poor Ghost from the battle!!!
Cersei is trying play everyone but Euron can’t be stupid enough to think she is pregnant with his child, if she’s pregnant at all, which I doubt. I do think wildfire will be used and that it may take down Dany and Drogon.
Sam,
no its not reliable, but I am annoyed about it hahaha
Dee Stark,
Me, too! Dracarys! Time for her to adhere Lady Olenna’s advice: “You are a dragon. Be a dragon.”
Adam,
Yes. I was waiting for Cersei to slaughter them all. Tywin would have and based on Cersei’s character and actions throughout the series it would have been more consistent to end it there. But they didn’t.
Cersei must have other more devious desires. Like capture and torture…
This may have been noted but doesn’t flying on a dragon in the sky give you the perfect vantage point from which to see approaching ships?
I know! Some here said there were people who gave ratings of 1 even before the show aired. So maybe a lot of them were just trolls.
WhiteSparkle,
I agree. The story and plot are just not the same. It’s been different for the last couple of seasons.
Did Dany and Co. think they could go back to Dragonstone like returning from a Disney cruise? Geez, Cersei wasn’t going to sit around and knit baby booties, for fucks sake. And no snow in King’s Landing?
Sam,
Well the episode leaked so people watched it before it aired
But even on Rotten Tomatoes, the last two episodes S8E3 and S8E4 are rated at 74% which is lowest ever.
Che,
I feel you could be right about the ending feeling deeply unsatisfying for most and maybe that could explain why D&D are setting it up this way like with denying us the more minor pay-offs we expected. Kind of trying to cushion the blow so to speak? That may sound stupid but I’m just trying to make sense of things 🙂
Jade,
Cersei: I’ve never believed her pregnancy,
Me, either. And I think that’s one reason that Tyrion’s plea fell on deaf ears. Cersei has something inside her, but not a fetus.
While there is a chance to be surprised, I think this episode – which was among the best in the series imho regardless of the few niggles which came mostly because of TV storytelling limitations than anything else – strongly hinted at the ending which is that Daenerys wins but dies in the process – whether she turns full mad queen and Jon kills her or she threatens Jon and Arya kills her, or she just dies in the final battle tbd, Jon renounces all claims and heads North (with Bran) to Tormund and Ghost, while the heir to the throne is clearly Gendry as he was legitimized and he will rule with Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Bronn etc as his ruling council.
Tyrion will free Jaime (who will be captured on the way to KL, tried and condemned by Daenerys) to go die with Cersei, will get caught and tried but escape the sentence with Daenerys’s death, Euron’s ships are clearly to be burnt by Drogon as we see in the preview and possibly Euron will actually fatally wound Cersei while being killed by Jaime, Cleganebowl will end with the death of both, Varys will get executed for treason while Arya will leave Westeros and Sansa will rule the North
Game of Thrones is undoubtedly my favourite show of all time – it’s hard to imagine anything coming close to it in the future.
I don’t disagree with the plot points of season 7 and 8. As sad as it is to see the unravelling and probable tragic end to Daenerys’ character arc, the signs have been there since season 2 when “I will take what is mine” became her motto. It’s unlikely that Sansa could grow up in the hands of cruel, manipulative, abusive and – in terms of Ramsay – evil people, and remain pure and good. If she had she wouldn’t have lived through it. She was right to say in the episode that all of those bad things that happened made her the person she is now. It’s not a shock that she’s cold, untrusting, and manipulating others at this stage in the game. Perhaps the only thing I disagree with in the most recent episode is Jaime potentially undoing his progress this season by returning to Cersei although I reckon it’s to kill her, not to be by her side again.
The issue I have is that season 7 and 8 should not have been condensed into 7 and 6 episodes. Sure, asking for more seasons may have proved a mistake – I know I hate it when a show drags on to the point people are calling for it to end AKA The Walking Dead. But these last two seasons should have been full length. All of the plot points are so crammed together even if the content is good it isn’t being given the time it needs to allow the story to breathe and affect you the way it used to pre-season 7. Yes earlier seasons had some forgettable episodes where not much happened, but they had dialogue and intrigue that set up the key plot points and action-heavy episodes so that you didn’t need to constantly apply leaps of faith or assumptions that certain conversations must have happened off-screen.
I love this show, and I always will, and I’m not one of these fans who just slams the show and bigs up the books (which we have to acknowledge may never be finished). I think the show-runners made a big mistake in condensing season 7 and 8. I don’t know why they did it, probably to be able to move on to other projects. But rather than sending off the show properly it feels as though we’re sprinting towards the end, and that any ending at this point will feel unearned because of that. If they were struggling to come up with content or dialogue because of a lack of source material I’m sure HBO would’ve footed the bill to bring in established screenwriters who could’ve helped flesh things out correctly. Weiss and Benioff did say in an interview recently that HBO would’ve gladly paid for more episodes and even seasons, so the decision to cut things lies solely with the show-runners. It has disjointed the storytelling and made it so that the plot is driving the characters rather than the characters driving the plot. It’s a real shame and could have been avoided.
The character moments were by and large good–some better than others.
What pulled me out of the story was the idiocy of Dany not going batshit crazy over the dragon’s skewering and roasting all of those ships from behind (see Battle of Mereen). Also, the Kings Landing set piece doesn’t look like KL. Where is Aegon’s High Hill, the towers of the keep? Saving a couple bucks on not putting in the CGI background or extending the walls enough or properly building the road that would lead to the gates of such a city yanked me right out of the story. Very…not even B-movie. Downright tv-ish.
I’m still along for the ride, but my immersion is being sorely stretched.
Che,
Aah! I see. In that case you are of course right. And yes, Cersei is a brilliant villain, especially the way Lena Headey portrays her.
This is my explanation to myself about why this scene made sense but they would have had to drop the sails pretty fast to get any type of shot!
GeekFurious,
Gendry deserves better, than Sansa the Mockingbird (and better than Arya). Actually, I don’t think that he’ll ever become a real lord of the Storms’ End. Not excluded, but I can equally see him returning to the forge and making good and useful things. IMO, his dreams about a higher social position were very much related to Arya. Poor boy!
RT is horrible for TV.
Literally this.
I understand that his arc has always been to go to KL and that from a story point of view, he had to do that.
But what I needed was a confirmation of their love for each other that has been hinted in subtext for seven years now. I needed it to be sweet and like a confession. Instead, it started with talk of virginity and ended in an awkward sex scene. Not cool.
Also, he JUST LEFT HER THERE SOBBING. HURTING. The Jaime Lannister of season 3-7 wouldn’t do that.
First of all, nothing he can say or not say will stop Brienne from going to KL if that’s where she wants to be. If anything, the honour bound Brienne would have stayed in Winterfell anyway to protect Sansa so Jaime could’ve told her the truth instead of being all cryptic. So him not telling her the truth to protect her makes no sense. She’s her own woman, always has been.
Secondly, I would have liked it more if he confessed his ACTUAL LOVE to Brienne USING THOSE WORDS and then explained that Cersei’s the monster he created. I would have liked it if Brienne understood (because she would have) that Jaime has to be the one to end Cersei and no matter how much Brienne loves him, this is his burden to bear. It would have been difficult , yes, but we know Brienne is a strong enough woman and has enough understanding of honour and duty to acknowledge and respect Jaime if he told her he had to go on this mission.
Instead, they had him leave her there with her worst fears confirmed: that he never really loved her and that she’s too ugly for someone like him to fall for her. I mean, they didn’t even have him confirm that he came to Winterfell for her. It just got turned into this baseless sex scene with none of the beauty that their relationship possesses.
If this is how they wanted to play it, then either have Jaime/Brienne get together earlier in the season or keep their relationship one of respect. Having him leave her like this after what seemed like a one night stand is just heartbreaking and cruel for her character, and a major step back for his progress.
Jaime Lannister of season 1 would’ve still killed the evil monarch to save King’s Landing so I don’t see how the Brienne thing plays into anything if that is the sum of his existence. It’s not like he’s now killing Cersei because he loves Brienne and :. Brienne was important to the equation in any way. What a sham.
Now, even if he survives all I’ll have in my head is the image of him leaving a brokenhearted Brienne behind after she begged him to stay. It felt like a betrayal to her. Now, she’ll go on believing that he never loved her and perhaps never can, even if Cersei is dead. Wouldn’t be fair to her character for her to accept him after all is said and done.
In my mind, I can never see them being together. All those seasons of build up went down the drain. All bitter, no sweet.
That’s very much a show thing. Sansa in the books is the anti-Cersei; the latter’s role in her story is as a big “what not to do”.
Sighing hard at the folks that think Arya must surely marry Gendry because, reasons, and because that’s the only thing that they can now contribute to the plot and because both their dead Daddies said so.
What part of “that’s not me” are we not getting?
Loved the episode. However it had a few head scratching moments. Right off the bat. How are Lyanna Mormont and Edd Tollette still in one piece. The Night King reanimated then. When he died they should have fallen to pieces just as the rest of his newly reanimated corpses did.
The acting was superior in this episode, to a character.
I loved this episode despite it’s flaws. The story has been rushed with so many loose ends, but we have two major issues behind the scenes. GRRM still needs to finish his books (if that ever happens) and the prequels are in works. Details about the White Walkers, Howland Reed, Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa etc – much of this lore IMO is being reserved for the books and future shows, which would be worthless if they did not promise some revelations to die hard fans.
Jon: Jon’s goodbyes to Tormund, Sam and Ghost means Jon is toast. I don’t think we’ll see Tormund and Ghost again, but Sam and Gilly seem to be sticking around in Winterfell for now. Kit’s acting was aces this episode.
Sam: A wedding for Sam and Gilly would not be out of order. And considering Jon’s speech about not forgetting, I believe Sam (and Bran) have some work to do recording people and histories. And Horn Hill is waiting for them.
Sansa. I’m not sure what Sansa and Brienne will encounter now. IMO Cersei would absolutely send a contingency to finish them off. It’s looks like Gendry and Pod also stuck around, but I can’t be sure about Gendry.
Gendry. Does his legitimization actually secure his loyalty to Dany, or does it hand him the throne? I think the latter. Arya was in character, though that scene was hard to watch. We all want Arya to be happy and safe but “that’s not her.” It is Sansa though. Perfect match. Endgame.
Dany. I feel terrible for her and I’d understand 200% if she cracked and turned into a Mad Queen. We have two clues that something major is happening with the dragons, I think. There is the dragon skull beneath the throne room in the opener, and the carved dragon on the wall in the war room on Dragonstone. Was that carving always there? If so, it was never featured so prominently.
Cersei. She is having the longest pregnancy since Maggie on Walking Dead. Heh. I still think there is something nefarious in the works there, far beyond what it seems. She knows the woods witch was correct about her three children dying… so I think she’s made other plans, with Qyburn’s help.
Arya. Will be heading west of Westeros in the end. Like Nymeria.
ETA I guess Alys Karstark is dead? They gave the poor girl one speaking scene ages ago, they used her as set decor, then they marched her off with Bran to the godswood, never to be seen again? I was hoping she would be given her wildling lover in Tormund.
Jon sending Ghost away wasn’t a budget thing. It’s symbolic. He’s sending his spirit animal away. It means he’s going to die.
I totally agree that this felt like two totally different episodes, first half and second. At the very onset I wondered what Dany whispered to Jorah. That she’d avenge him? Of the people left around her, he was the one with the best chance to keep her reined in. She’s suffered terrible lost. Two of her “children”, her Dothraki were decimated, her Unsullied were decimated, Missande, and even Jon. He may be with her, but he can’t love her back like she wants him too and he’s a threat to her throne. If that isn’t enough to drive her totally mad, she’s a better woman than most.
Jon is following in Ned’s footsteps and I understand why he is, but I worry that that may be his downfall. I am fully prepared for Jon to die. I personally would like to see the iron throne melted down, but we all know that “someone” has to be in charge. We can only hope it won’t be a mad-woman. In the end I wonder if Tyrion will be the one to stop her.
Jaime leaving upset me, but I can’t say I was shocked by it. He has and will always love Cersei, but I also think he may be under the mistaken impression he can stop her from being like the mad king..in other words “don’t burn them all.” She has a rested, bought and paid for army, a fleet and crazy man who loves to kill leading it, scorpions and wild fire. This does not bode well. In the end I also wonder if Jaime will be the one to stop her. I don’t think it will be Arya and I worry that Arya is trying to bite off more than she can chew. I also don’t think she should be the one to take out Cersei. She took out the night king, but Cersei too? If she can’t, then what will happen to her? I honestly don’t see her and the Hound riding off into the sunset.
So, all said and done, it was a good episode (they can’t all be epic), and we are honestly on the road to chaos, madness and the loss of characters. THAT is saddest of all.
fdr,
Jon just seems like a shell of his former self. I miss his old lively/cocky self like when he addressed the Night’s watch council after coming back from his wildling adventures. As for the books suggesting Dany just wants to plant roots and have love of family I didn’t really get any notion of that in the show version. Maybe in first episode or two they touched on it but my memory isn’t that good. But when her brother died I think something changed in her. I would have liked to see some acknowledgement that Jon is family. It’s really surprising we got nothing at all.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I think Jaime is leaving to kill Dany not Cersei.
I’m pretty steamed about Jaime and Brienne and the utterly shite handling of what was supposed to be a beautiful romance into some weird one night stand, but the one that PISSED ME OFF was Missandei’s death.
I understand that it is meaningful. I understand that this was so we could see Dany being pushed over the edge. But what this has done is made my fully support Dany to bring fire and blood upon all of KL. I don’t see her as a mad queen – I see her doing exactly what anyone would do if their friend and their child had been ripped apart from them in one day. It’s the things she is going to do for love.
If they wanted to show us Dany descending into madness (as admittedly, they have been doing in portions over the past few seasons) then Rhaegal + taking down of her boats would have sufficed. Killing Missandei was just…cruel.
Adam,
Well said Adam!
After watching the episode a second time. I wondered if there’s significance to Jon asking Tormund to bring Ghost with him up north. Jon said Ghost would be happier up there and Tormund said, “so would you.” There’s an article/interview saying Ghost will appear again later this season, would Jon’s ending be him going up north to join Ghost and “be free and have room to wander”?
As for Jon not hugging Ghost, I think it’s more because of the lack of CGI budget than Jon being an uncaring pet owner. 🙂
I have asked myself the same question. I could understand Sansa’s animosity up to now but having seen the sacrifices Dany has made and her losses in the Battle of Winterfell, what is it exactly that Sansa is so suspicious of? Just why??
Or is it just that Sansa is simply driven by the need for Stark rule and nothing else will do.
She’s turning into a little bitch.
This show is getting worse by the episode.
Disappointing.
However, what they should have done is have Tyrion and Jamie approach Arya to kill Bronn for his arrogance, steal his face and then announce the Lannister brothers dead.
Arya returns as Bronn to King’s Landing to collect their rewards, and kills Cersei.
Job done.
On the subject of avoiding the scorpion attack – yes they could probably have seen the ships from the air, but they have much better (and far too underused) way
John: “Hey Bran, pop on over to Kingslanding and let us know what Cersei has been planning”
Bran: Goes all white eyed for a bit….”right she’s covered all of the castle in a crap load of scorpions and is going to send Euron’s fleet to try and ambush Danny”
Danny: “right well then, guess I’m not going to Dragonstone “
Very frustrating episode.
The cognitive dissonance required around Bran’s powers solely to create tension is mind numbing. And now twice Daeny has been surprised at sea while god knows how high up in the sky.
Apparently there’s no time for scouting (maybe Bran could help with that) and dragons are blind. Daeny should have taken Euron’s offer. He’s obviously more useful than dragons imo.
Oh, I didn’t know it was leaked. Thank God it was not spoiled for me. I hate spoilers 😀
At this point, it would be difficult to please everyone. As for me, I just want to savor every minute of these last episodes. Are they perfect? Definitely not but I’ll watch and re-watch these last season’s episodes for sure.
Dyanna,
It’s a plot point to drive a wedge between the north and Dany … so they can strip her of all her allies and leave her feeling alone
Sam,
After watching the episode a second time. I wondered if there’s significance to Jon asking Tormund to bring Ghost with him up north. Jon said Ghost would be happier up there and Tormund said, “so would you.” There’s an article/interview saying Ghost will appear again later this season, would Jon’s ending be him going up north to join Ghost and “be free and have room to wander”?
Yeah, I noticed that too. I love how Tormund and Jon have become real friends when they were enemies I also wondered if Ghost wouldn’t go and try and get Tormund to go south to help Jon. I do feel Jon would get a semblence of happiness if he just went north and stayed away from the rest of Westeros.
I took it for CGI budget too but still would have liked Jon to hug Ghost. 🙂
HelloThere,
“Starving” out Cersei means starving the inhabitants of KL. That’s why I thought a siege was a self-defeating plan in the first place.
Summer,
They didn’t show Arya and Sansa’s reaction to Jon’s parentage reveal for two simple reasons.
1. The audience has already heard and seen the story multiple times.
2. Arya and Sansa’s reactions are obvious, as would be Jon’s response to them.
Sansa and Arya: First of all, we love you just the same. You’re our brother and a Stark. But yeah, that’s crazy, oh my God. You would so be a great King.
Jon: No. I will not take the throne and don’t want it. Join me in supporting Dany. It’s best for the seven kingdoms.
Sansa and Arya: come on.
Jon: No.
Sansa and Arya: OK, but we’re not happy about it.
*Sansa tells Tyrion*
You really, really don’t need that scene. You know exactly what happened. And there wouldn’t have been much emotion to it. If I found out my brother was adopted, it wouldn’t change a thing and I wouldn’t be emotional about it. I love him and he’s my brother.
It’s sad that you feel the need to insult people who don’t blindly praise everything the show does.
I guess critical thinking is “toxic nerd culture” ?
People who don’t believe in criticism are the reason why so many writers are lazy and don’t put any effort into good quality storytelling. They know that blind fans will love it no matter how dumb it gets.
And by the way, 7.7 is not a bad score.
Still means most people liked it. They just like it less than usual, because it’s become terribly sloppy.
Ten Bears,
Yes, but the idea is to have her capitulate before they (and she) starves. And of course, a starving population could revolt and unseat Cersei themselves. It’s not at all self-defeating. It could work.
Sersis,
So far Bran has been pretty useless. Why all the trouble and sacrifice to save him in S6?
Ten Bears,
It was Jon’s choice. He’s the one that will have to live (die) with it.
Yet again people see what they want to see about Sansa. How is she the new Cersei, when the first scene you see of her is genuinely mourning for Theon and giving him the Stark pin?
Or later when she had a touching moment with the Hound and showed him respect and care? What about her worry and fear for Jon when he marched south and her obvious pain in having to break the stupid promise?
Yeah, she broke it. So what. It was the right thing to do. She sees right through Dany and sees the destructive tyrant in her, the implusive one who’s charging the North’s exhausted armies into a battle despite them not being ready. Dany has been constantly ignorant to her and the one time she did try to make it right she tried to manipulate Sansa, which didn’t work.
Also yes, Dany helped. But so did Sansa. She was the only person who gave a fuck about the North and wanting to take it back, even Jon wanted to retire south. She put Jon back on track and retook winterfell, which she then successfully prepared for winter. The WW threat steam rolls Bran and Westeros if not for any of that.
Sansa has every reason to believe Dany is bad news. She has every reason to believe Jon would make a great ruler. She’ll never be like Cersei because she has empathy and love for people, more so than Dany, who’s completely ok with burning innocent people alive to conquer the realm, despite her claim now being moot. She’s the selfish one, the one more like Cersei. As for Sansa being power hungry? She refused the North the instant Jon offered it. Dany is begging Jon not to destroy her claim.
Yeah, you’re right. It is judged completely differently than all other entertainment.
For some reason people forgive this show for dozens of plot holes, logical inconsistencies, character assassinations, and stupid writing that they would never tolerate in any other TV show or movie of this caliber.
GoT gets a free pass from mass audiences and most critics even when its writing descends into soap opera territory, or worse.
People have blinders on, because the show used to be so good and because the production values are so amazing.
Because of that, they shut off their brains and ignore how full of holes the story has become.
The minute we saw Septa Unella tied up, with the Mountain poised to do Cersei’s bidding, I was positive Cersei and Qyburn were cooking up a plan to create their version of Tormund’s monster babies. I don’t think CERSEI was ever pregnant.
And Cersei has “plans” for the dragon queen.
Will Bran’s story to Tyrion come out? Does Tyrion know the ending and trying to save someone? Can Arya wear the faces of the White King and army ….since she killed them ALL?????
fdr,
Davos was worried about Dany’s possible reaction towards Gendry. Now it’s solved. Sure, we can see this move as political, too, but it might take a massive PR campaign to make the lords of the Stormlands to accept Gendry. So, I lean towards the thought that legitimization was mainly Jon’s response to his affair with Arya and maybe also general attempt to bring everyone together. Also, he might have thought that Gendry’s marriage to Arya will sort of compensate for his mother’s broken vows to Gendry’s father. Unfortunately, Arya decided not to go along and without any legit reason.
I agree about saying good bye, it’s too soon.
I feel for Dany, she listened to advice from people who know Westeros and she’s lost everything including Jon (they can’t be together). I’m hoping she is able to act with wisdom instead of rage.
First Bronn tells Jamie that Cersei sent him to kill the brothers then gets bad news from the battle. He’s going to go try to stop Cersei. He may try to get her to leave with him to save the baby. And was anyone else thinking that Euron was counting weeks once Tyrion talked children with Cersei?
Arya and the Hound are going to go all Pulp Fiction in KL. If anything they will create a Red Wedding…will there be pie?
The Bastard,
Okay good to know.
Im just protective over my favorite show. and biased lol
Ten Bears,
Remember the Botb when it was hard to discern the look on her face as she watched on the battlefield and noticed Jon was still alive and running after Ramsay? Some said she looked ambivalent or even upset about his survival. Now, she’s betrayed his secret and quite possibly putting him in danger. I think Sansa only cares about herself really.
fdr,
They already have the Economical Community of Westeros: it’s called the Seven Kingdoms. How do you think a feudal country works?
WhiteSparkle,
I totally agree.
This whole season just comes across as poorly constructed fan fiction.
It’s populist and appealing to all the things fans want to see, along with throwing in a few shocks by popping off secondary characters along the way.
The production is exemplary and has never been better. The acting, the direction, the photography (notably beautiful this season), but dear gods, the scripts are dire.
It’s become Dallas in chain mail.
Drogon is just sitting there. They have like 10 ballistas lined up on the walls right where the stand off is happening. What’s stopping them from just firing immediately and killing Drogon ?
They were somehow able to shoot Rhaegal out of the sky with three shots in quick succession, and with stunning accuracy.
Yet they can’t just shoot Drogon at the parlay ? Why not ?
People need to stop making excuses for bad writing. Cersei easily could have had every single person there killed within seconds.
I think Gendry ends up on the throne, after Dany and Jon die. He’s the true Baratheon heir. So the show comes full circle back to the beginning with a real Baratheon on the throne again after a Targaryen is defeated. Both times, perhaps, by Jaime Lannister.
Boojam,
I had hopes for such twist. Unfortunately…
Jon and Deanerys could consider several options:
One would think that Daenerys could make the Targ secret public, take the throne by conquest then make Jon king and then she (Deanryrs) become his Hand. Tywin ruled as Hand. Also make the north independent.
Or let Jon become King, then he abdicates to return to the watch like Master Aemon. Surely they can reconstitute the watch as a far northern security post.
The Targ line of succession has ended but they will take the throne by conquest it appears. No way Cersei wins. But it is unclear that if Daenerys is looking for a family, that she would so desperately tell her family to keep the family secret.
Cersei is terrible but Daenerys has no right to the throne and she knows it. Whoever can keep it, it is theirs.
Because Jon is responsible for what Sansa freely decides to do, even though she promised Jon she’d keep quiet and then broke that promise?
I mean, I get it wasn’t a wise move on Jon’s part and I get why Sansa wants to press Jon’s claim and Dany was absolutely correct in her prediction but the only one responsible for Sansa’s choices is Sansa.
GodofTitsandWine,
The corpses only fell apart according to the extent of their decay, the didn’t shatter like the WWs. A deanimated mostly-skeleton would appear to shatter, but a body only a half-hour dead would not. But I agree it was inconsistent, the Giant’s body seemed to decompose and fall apart more than it should have.
Inga,
Why does Arya need a legit reason to turn Gendry down? There is no need for her to do that if she doesn’t want that. I would have found it out of character if she said ‘yes’.
BeardedOnion,
Actually, I agree that Sansa has empathy for people. But I think her flaw is that her empathy is bound by the North. She only really has empathy for her in-group, and so she can’t extend her compassion beyond those boundaries to the people of Westeros and beyond. She’s the equivalent of a modern nationalist in that sense. So it matters not to her that Dany working together with the Starks as Wards could result in a peaceful and just kingdom. She demands Northern autonomy because her empathy is only for Northerners.
EasyEams,
I couldn’t watch the BTS. The beginning was frustrating. I think these guys are burned out like grrm.
Nerd Culture is well documented as being cynical. It has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes.
Nick20,
People cried about how bad Unbowed Unbent Unbroken was for weeks and it still has a better score. Hundreds of people were giving this latest episode 1 star on IMDB even before the leaks…how could it be more toxic lol
Ghostgirl,
The significance of sending Ghost away is that it means Jon is going to die.
Dany has put her people and Dragons into this mess and how soon was that forgotten? She lost her most loyal friends. Her sons. Now they itch to toss her aside for a male. I hope they all find a way to trust each other as Cersei is using their emotions against them.
Grow up Tyrion, your sister is an evil bitch. And her pregnancy should result in the most robust premature baby ever.
Can a girl hope Ghost follows Jon?
Inga,
I’m not an expert in feudalism, but I would say that in a feudal country there is hardly any direct management from the capital. There is hardly economy which is not local either, making an ECW basically non-existent. While the North looks really feudal to me in that the overlord has to keep his bannermen happy, the Targaryen dynasty looks less so to me, they did as they liked. I was joking, but the seven lords don’t call themselves independent sovereigns yet, nor do they meet biannually to solve common problems? They also don’t choose their new emperor as in the Holy Roman Empire (before that became hereditary in the late Middle Ages).
Why do you continue to watch the show if you dislike it so much? And even if you just want to see it finish, why waste your time online posting about something you obviously don’t enjoy anymore?
The story telling is fine. You just want to complain, just like you have all season. No matter what was put out, you would find something to complain about. You are “that guy”.
To answer your question…. Rhaegal was hurt and wasn’t as mobile which is why it was easy to shoot him out of the sky. Drogon wasn’t as injured and could move out of the way. For somebody who can complain about the show so much, you really should pay attention more to the details. The same small details that show why the writing is so great.
I would’ve named S8 E4 – I am the Storm or
The Things I do for Love
I wish Jon Snow could grow as a character and change how predictable he is… do some thing that surprises the viewer… Take Daenerys advice – Take Tyrion’s advice… wake up and play the Game of Thrones..
Nice post.
Sansa looks really strong. Clear headed decision-making. Looking very “queenly”.
I wonder what contrivance will get Sansa and Brienne the Banged down to KL. They have Bran so it will not just be a matter on heading down for a stroll.
Isabelle,
Maybe, Theon’s room? Would be fitting for a highborn foster son.
Cosca,
I loved “Unbowed Unbent Unbroken “!
Exactly. GOT is popular enough now that it must be taken down by a small vocal group of online fans. This same thing happens over and over again with other major nerd phenomena.
Tru dat.
Sansa surely knows, that Dany knows. So in her understanding, that fact puts Jon already in danger (if Jon had an “accident”, Dany’s claim would be uncontested again). And she did notice, that Tyrion is afraid of Dany. Remember also that Sansa graduated Baelish University where you try to imagine every possible outcome, yada yada and so on. So, she basically said that she was afraid for Jon, so maybe she hoped that by telling Tyrion, Jon would have a possible ally in the south. She knows Tyrion has a good heart and is fond of Jon, so…
Apart from that, I found that conversation all kinds of weird. Tyrion tried to read Sansa and failed to understand what was happening with her. He even made it clear to her that if Jon went south, she would rule the North alone. Did you notice any satisfaction there or joy? So, obviously, that wasn’t her problem at all. Tyrion could not get it out of her and when he asked her to look at him, she was trying to hold back tears. Wtf?
Anyone who watched it closely, listended to the dialogue and looked in the actor’s faces, should really not come away with “Sansa wants power”. Do make an effort!
Seriously, if anything, she’s extremely sad that Jon is leaving. She also came off as jelly, not because of power, but because Jon followed Dany and did not stay with her. I know it sounds all kinds of weird, but she was sooo emotional. I’m not touching the whole Jonsa business, but I must say, her anti-Dany stance makes much more sense, if we take a very personal issue into account. (Or the writers are just trolling.) You know, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck…
Moreover, Sophie already told us in one of her interviews that Sansa would fight a passionate fight this season and that she has to go behind a few backs and risks tearing apart her family.
I’m quite sure she would not do that lightly and surely not for her own selfish gain. That girl is long gone. There was character development the last few seasons, even if haters choose to ignore it. Get with the program!
PS. Also I do agree with Summer’s post. The blocked POV is kind of annoying. They are going to pull the same crab, they did last season with LF. We’re not going to get to see the Stark’s kid’s scheme play out on screen (I assume Arya and Bran are be in on it), we’re only gonna get the TWIST. Which is sad, because it seems thta we don’t get Winterfell at all next episode 🙁
I’ve raged about Sansa my fair share – last season with the BotB, etc, I raged about her character – but how on earth are people hating on her here?
1) It shows Dany to be power-hungry that she makes Jon swear to never tell a soul that he’s the real heir to the throne so she can have it. Her whole spiel has been that she is the rightful heir. Now she’s NOT – and she wants him to lie about it, to his own family?
2) Sansa does love Jon – she even says quite clearly, he’s just as much Ned Stark’s son as anyone else
3) She tries to stop him going south multiple times. She says she doesn’t want him to go. She says bad things happen when Starks go south. Why is everyone acting like she sent him to KL to maneuver?
4) She thinks Jon is better than Dany. Not just for the North, although obviously that’s her consideration – and why the hell not. But she also thinks he’s better in general, that much is obvious in her conversation with Tyrion, because she KNOWS Tyrion must be questioning Dany too.
5) I really do think it’s her way also of protecting Jon. If he’s just Jon Snow, Dany’s lover who bent the knee, it’s not as important that he be protected by her advisors. But if he’s Aegon, well isn’t there an incentive for people like Tyrion to watch out for him? Because Sansa knows that Tyrion is convincing himself Dany is better than she may be.
This isn’t some evil deed. Ned kept the secret because of Robert Baratheon and the Lannisters. Jon is an adult now, a fighter and was King of the North, not an innocent baby that Ned Stark brought home to protect.
The whole premise of Dany’s arc is that the Iron Throne was hers by birthright. It’s not anymore. The fact that she wants to hide that – does it make her any different than anyone else? One of the main points GRRM makes is that power also corrupts. It’s corrupted her, in a way.
Dany has always shown the “fire and blood” tendency. Jon has not. If Sansa sees that, it makes her evil?
ygritte,
That doesn’t really make sense based on what we saw. Tyrion already reassured her that she would basically hold power in The North. And she explicitly said that she doesn’t want Jon to go south because “the men in my family don’t do well in the capital” (I think that’s an understatement).
She told Tyrion that she thought Jon would be a better ruler.
I don’t think there’s been any hint that she doesn’t love and value Jon over the past few seasons. She spent most of Season 7 either begging him not to leave Winterfell or wishing he would come back.
I don’t want to reopen the old BotB debates, but she clearly looked concerned, open mouthed and breathing deeply, when Jon went charging off after Ramsay. The notion that she was disappointed that Jon survived is completely baseless.
Sadly I saw the same on Westeros.org where people intentionally give a one star rating because they feel aggrieved by the direction show is going. Apparently there were 2000 one star ratings before the episode even aired. Most of the blowback seems to be coming from Dany fans this week, last week it was another section of the community.
I don’t really know how I feel about this episode. There were many great moments, it just felt so depressing seeing things fall apart so much after the wonderfully intimate 8×02 and the triumphant 8×03. I know, I know.. this is Game of Thrones, so it’s par for the course. It just makes me very nervous for the last two episodes, and I suppose that’s what they want us to feel, so good on them there I suppose. 🙂
One thing I found very frustrating though is how we didn’t get to see the reaction of Arya and Sansa to Jon’s reveal. Like, really!?
I don’t know if I’ll have a proper opinion on this episode until I see how this all ends. We’ll see..
Nadia,
Agree 100%.
George,
This is what I think will happen as well, more or less.
Yes! Oh that’s a great idea – and has broken my heart all over again! 😭
Having seen this in other fandoms, arguing with toxic types, or people with irrational agendas is pointless. The people who love a thing eventually determine its perception, even if it takes many years… anger is fleeting, love lasts far longer.
Is anyone else concerned about Winterfell and the remaining people there? I know we are supposed to think the WW threat is over. Personally I’m not sold that it is. Twists and all. But we just seen basically every fighter but a heartbroken Brienne leave Winterfell. Either it’s a huge obvious signal the fighting is over in the north or we are gonna get another surprise.
I also feel Dany has received an awful lot of scorn considering she has saved everyone with her armies. I do love her character, but also see the dark, impulsive parts of her nature. I don’t know if she would make a good ruler. I think Daario had the right of it, she is a conquerer, a saviour to many, but a good and steady ruler? I don’t think so. Her time in Mereen showed that. She wanted to impose her will on her new subjects because she felt she had the moral superiority to do so. We agree with her convictions coming from a 21st century perspective, but that doesn’t change that she wasn’t very good at ruling, in as much as she was at imposing her will, as conquerors do.
The part I bolded is something I disagree with however. The male aspect shouldn’t have come in to play and isn’t relevant as Jon is the only surviving true-born child of Rhaegar Targaryen, who was the heir to the iron throne. That puts him ahead of Dany in the line of succession without even taking gender into account.
I also don’t think Varys’ scheming and Tyrion’s begrudgingly entertaining the conversation is due to her being a woman, but more due to her impulsiveness and her ‘burn cities to the ground’ rhetoric that she often comes out with when threatened or angered.
Meg,
Well, Jon started with a good intent: he basicly told his sisters, that Dany is family, too, assuming they would get the point. Unfortunately…
So, I wonder what his attitude to Sansa will be after he discovers the treason. Not sure, whether he’ll be in a position to punish her, but I don’t think he’ll trust her again on any issue.
Bran was instrumental in defeating the NK. He laid out the plans to lure him to the Godswood, he knew how the NK would be defeated and gave Arya the blade to do the deed.
He (and/or the LOL) likely set all or many of the wheels in motion to bring all the characters to where they needed to be, at the given time. He even says as much to Theon, in their scene at the Godswood.
Bran also checks out to ensure all the others were in place and gives Theon a final nudge to distract the NK to allow Arya time to strike.
My bet is we’ve not seen the last of Bran’s powers either; he could well warg into Drogon to bring him down during Dany’s rampage (you will never walk again but you will fly).
From what I can tell the episode did not leak just certain plot points, thus would potentially explain 2000 people giving a strongbepisode a one star rating.
Yes indeed. Jon did the absolutely best thing he could do for Ghost, sending him off with his trusted friend to the only place he could truly be happy and free. If Jon survives the next battle, I hope he can at least visit them one day.
Suitably Ironic,
Considering that Tolkein wrote LOTR about the experience in WWI and GRMM emulates him, that pretty much is par for the course. So very stupid on so many levels, very much like WWI
Lest we forget that Bran said he lives in the past. I don’t remember the 3 Eyed Raven being able to predict the future. Am I forgetting something?
Well, he could not just stay in WF doing nothing for the two biggest GOT episodes.
That said, he may not survive this trip and leave Brienne in WF wondering forever.
They did not just have a one-night stand, they were basically living together for a few weeks at least. When he was leaving and Brienne held his face and spoke with him -that whole exchange said she was a woman very emotionally intimate with Jaime. Jaime has always had lots of layers in him – Brienne knows it.
I hope they do not go with Jaime dead, Brienne pregnant. If Jaime dies (and he might!) then I hope she leaves for Tarth with no baby.
As for the virginity, well Brienne was whipping his shirt off so fast – I think she was willing to bed Jaime for some time. And of course, he did wiggle into her bedroom.
I suppose it could have been a candlelight seduction bear rug with a marriage proposal then a solemn promise of return when he left for KL – but this is also fun too.
I’m a bit surprised about the negative reaction and low rating for this episode. I really liked it. I knew something bad was going to happen when everyone was so happy at the feast. It all felt very logical and typical GOT for me and everyone acted in character.
I hadn’t expected Missandei to die this episode, but I knew one of them was going to die this season because they were too happy. I only wonder what is going to be the sweet part of bittersweet.
From what I read here, a lot of people expected the remaining dragons to die this season, only not this episode. I don’t think there were many other ways to kill off Rhaegal. And I guess Drogon will somehow die in the fight next episode.
Euron is very good in surprise attacks, he already proved that last season. I think Dany and co were a bit over confident after destroying the Nigh King. They must have thought: if they can defeat dead, they sure can defeat the living. Since Dany hatched her dragons she really believed she was destined for the Iron Throne, but that belief is going to destroy her. It’s like those very rich/famous people who think no-one can harm them, but they end broke, alone without real friends, or meet an early death because of their own doing.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I agree with your comments. I’m angry at the show for not okaying more episodes to flush out these characters and the story. This episode felt odd, disjointed and rushed at times. I’m not sure Dany would have disregarded all of the advise and endangered her wounded dragon to rush off literally the next day to fight the “last fight”. Game of Thrones has held my interest because of the rich character developments, the world and wild storylines. (Thank you George RR Martin.) I never jumped out of an episode for plausibility the way I did in this episode. I feel a lot of the work from George RR Martin was undermined with this rushed episode. Jon and Dany felt out of character and Sansa’s slanted change this season seems too abrupt and not true to her character. However, Arya and the Hound seemed true to themselves and the story. Also, boo to the amateur writer who again decided in episode 2 to knock Jon’s height, Dany: “Someone taller”. I’m so sick of writer’s “clever” hobnobs that bounce me out of the story. These dialogue hits remind me of immature teenager comments made to try and sound clever.
Che,
I am right behind you! Bleak and hopeless are exactly my feelings right now.
This is not “bittersweet”. This is not anywhere near “bittersweet”. This is just gut-wrenching, heart-ripping tragedy of the darkest kind. And I can only speak for myself, but you are right: I am neither ready nor willing to read/watch a story ending so utterly, utterly hopeless.
I don’t give a f*** if it is more realistic this way. I have enough “real” everytime I watch the news. Thank you very much. And no, Sam and Gilly living happily ever after, sitting on a bench and reading books are no compensation. NOT.AT.ALL.
So, yes. Please. Write fanfiction. There are already some really amazing ones out there, but I fear I will need all I can get to recharge my belief that love can be true, that honesty and honour are actually good things, that fate is not carved in stone and that coming together to fight a common enemy can actually lead into something new and good for everyone.
It’s extremely tough for her to be in this strange place saving all these people and having nothing to show for it. Each of her victories in Essos resulted in almost immediate gratification and adulation – not so in Westeros, a place she feels should be on their knees already due to House Targaryen’s “rightful” place as the ruling house. She’s a good person whose innate sense of right and wrong has led her to do incredible, incredibly difficult things like free as many slave cities as she could, but it may also be her downfall. Losing Rhaegal (supposedly!) and Missandei will make her want to burn the world down in her distress and self-righteousness. It draws a further contrast with Jon. He wanted to ride down south when he heard about Ned’s death, but stayed in the NW and did his duty. I’m sure he’s wanted to destroy Cersei and co a thousand times over for what House Lannister did to House Stark (Red Wedding, etc) but didn’t because he knew it wouldn’t get them anywhere. Cersei and Euron need to be removed from power, but what is the acceptable cost to do so?
George,
I wouldn’t be surprised by any of this, tbh.
Don’t we have one more shocker almost at the end?
Elizabeth,
Agreed!!! Even Tyrion knows about Bran’s power now so why wouldn’t he ask about what Cercei was planning?
THere lies the problem UUU, the Dance of Dragons, Beyond the Wall are significantly weaker than anything we’ve seen this season at least in my opinion. Yet people are trolling largely because their expectations are not being matched with the plot direction.
ygritte,
I have to disagree. I’ve definitely picked apart Sansa’s character decisions in the BotB to death and I still have quibbles with some other stuff she decides to do, but I don’t think she’s out for herself and power. It’s clear to me that she really truly loves Jon, Arya, and Bran. This is supported by the showrunners and writers if you won’t take my word for it 😉 But seriously, I think Sansa’s love for her siblings is there, especially considering they’re all each other have left of the family they knew growing up.
But I’m also surprised and disappointed at the direction the writers are having Dany take. I was so, so, so sure Dany would ultimately be happy she’s not alone, she’s not the last Targaryen, and this would mean more than the Iron Throne. You know, the whole deal in the books with the red-doored house and her happiest memories being there and with Drogo when she was pregnant. I’m super sad about how they look to be going the Mad Queen route. Also shows what I know X_X
Thank you for the recap, David! I thought this was a great episode. For me, the one word that would describe this episode is foreboding. The Starks are separating again, Jon left his direwolf – which in the books is a huge thing. Cat literally felt dread because Robb put aside Greywind at the Freys. Arya leaving again with no intention of returning. Sansa becoming more and more of a conspirator. If you would allow me a moment of obnoxiousness, I totally called Bronn arriving in this episode, and I thought he would kill Tyrion but I was wrong about that. I don’t think it’s too out of character for Bronn at all. I expected it.
Also, there is now more ominous music when there are shots of Dany and she does indeed have a one-track mind: instead of googly heart eyes, she has googly eyes with the Iron Throne at the core. However, I don’t want to claim she’s descending into madness, only because it is so obvious, and because it is obvious, I have to wonder if it is a red herring for viewers. In the trailer for next week’s episode, she looked more despondent – her hair is loose, she seems to be in a robe, and she’s leaning on a pillar looking out at sea. I assumed Missandei’s death would be a trigger for her to not hold back (even Missandei’s last words were a call to “light them up” as David said), but I wonder if this makes Dany question her one-track mind instead. Also Varys knows about the underground tunnels in King’s Landing – couldn’t he inform Dany of this and couldn’t they potentially strategise sneaking the common people OUT of the city? It’s only a matter of what tunnels are still in use after the Wildfire explosion. “The Targaryens built this city to withstand a siege….and provide an escape if necessary,” – Varys to Tyrion in Blackwater. Honestly, why hold out on this info?
I will probably get some hate for this but honestly, I would rather it had been Tyrion who died instead of Missandei. But that’s my own personal bias because I loved her so. This death cut me deep. However, if it’s her death that would cause Dany to reconsider her one-track mind, I will very reluctantly accept it. And as always, I hope that Iron Throne does NOT exist by the end of the series. I honestly don’t mind if both Dany and Jon die, as long as that Iron Throne also perishes, I will be satisfied.
Honestly, the thing that bugs me the most is it isn’t more “realistic.” The bad guys having every last thing break their way is no more realistic than the good guys having every last thing break their way. Realistic is the stronger force with the better claim and the love of the people actually winning, not well, they would have won but Cersei gets some last-minute help from a 10,000 year old ice demon hell bent on decimating the greatest army the world has ever seen and then dying at the last second so only the good will suffer. This is the allies are about to land at Normandy but aliens attack. The good guys beat the aliens but almost all die. Hitler wins. Oh wow, how gritty and non-Hollywood.
Elizabeth,
Bran saw the Wildfire explosions in Kings Landing and (presumably) Dany’s dragon flying over King’s Landing, all of which was in the future.
I have to watch the next episode on my tablet in Korea in a hotel room alone.
Somebody help me
Are we seeing a battle next week? Fire and Blood, I want it sooooooooooo badly
“The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.”
GRRM has often cited that Faulkner quote, and has explained it as sort of a guide for his own writing.
If that quote means anything for ASOIAF and isn’t just a fancy quote from a famous author that George likes to trot out in interviews, the big twist from “The Long Night “will probably play out similarly in the books, should we ever be graced with them. The Long Night will probably not be nearly as long as we might have expected it be in that medium, as well. Why? Because when it comes to the human heart being in conflict with its self, a battle against the immutable and inexorable forces of death doesn’t really inspire much conflict, at least not within the human heart. The stakes are simple; victory is life, defeat is death.
This episode makes one thing pretty clear. If you were expecting the ending of this story to include the struggle against the Night King (and I was one of them), you were wrong. They are, at this point, well and truly behind us.
And this strong episode shows us that this isn’t a bad thing. “What were the White Walkers even about?” I have seen that question asked many times since last week. Well, my opinion, and Who knows if it is anywhere close to being correct, is that the White Walkers are another subversion of classic fantasy tropes. Tolkien made a stab at it with the Scouring of the Shire, but GRRM will likely lean even further into upending the classic “good wins, evil loses, everyone lives happily ever after” trope. The living won, but now what? The human heart will always be the human heart. Victory over inexorable death doesn’t mean the survivors will settle down into a Westerosi hippy commune. Jealousies and rivalries will reappear, conflicts put on the back burner will flare up, and peace will be as elusive and fleeting as it always is.
To wit, the coalition that won the war against the Dead appears on the brink of permanent fissure. Daenerys is bent on claiming that uncomfortable iron chair from Cersei, because even after setting aside her desires and fighting in the literal apocalypse, she can’t accept settling for anything less than what she has set up in her head as her destiny.
In this case, her destiny is leading her down a dark path. Dany has always had a ruthless side, and a temper to match it. She has endorsed murder, torture, cruelty, and indiscriminate forms of “justice” against those who wrong her. Tell me, Dany fans, do you really think that Astapor and Meereen are better off for her having been there?
Dany has always felt isolated in Westeros, and there is good reason for that. She is not from Westeros. Her family ruled the Seven Kingdoms for hundreds of years, but it has been decades since the last Targaryen king, and she has spent her entire life in exile. The people of Westeros do not know her, and the thing they most remember about her family is the Mad King, who burned the innocent because the voices in his head told him to. She was always going to receive the outsider’s treatment, to be seen as an invading conqueror, because that is what she is.
Instead of relying on the dragons being the manifestation of her power and ruthlessness, she has been overly reliant on displays of “my way or the highway” style leadership. Burning the Tarlys alive had no strategic or political value whatsoever, but she did it anyways because they spurned her and she could. Again, she demonstrated that her kind of justice is neither rational nor merciful.
Now, she finds herself alone in a strange land, with almost all of her original advisors, the only ones who were ever capable of tempering her worst impulses, dead and gone. In their absence, she has let those impulses guide her. Her lover has become her greatest threat, at least as long as she clings to her own self-imposed destiny. Cersei Lannister has bested her at every turn.
The roadblocks that once held her in check are all gone.
Perhaps worst of all, she has now put herself in the position of asking a man she professes to love to deny his identity, an identity he has searched his entire life to get answers about, because it is inconvenient to her claim. She has lived her whole life with the belief that she has the best claim to the Iron Throne of Westeros, but now she knows that is not the case. Her response to that inconvenient truth has been revealing, and not in a good way.
If you believe that GRRM and Faulkner are right about the human heart, there was a lot to like about this episode. One can only hope that something changes between now and the finale, otherwise our ending appears to be a lot more bitter than sweet.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Okay, you made some good points 🙂 I won’t label Sansa the worst but she did betray Jon’s confidence like right after he told her his secret just about, which will have repercussions.
Elizabeth,
But Bran doesn’t need to predict the future (even if he can). Bran just needs to warg some birds (or a dragon) and scope it out ahead of time. Heck, Ser is pretty docile these days. Just warg into him and chop Cersei’s head off. Problem solved.
The problem imo is Bran has a distinct advantage in this society with how slow information travels. He can “travel” long distances and see many things at once. IMO it feels that Bran’s power gets “forgotten” to cause tension and then anything that follows that tension feels illogical (ie Daeny being surprised attacked again by Euron, in like the same place as the first time no less).
Perhaps Bran has some master plan but I don’t see the foundation for that and there’s a lot of explaining to do around why he hasn’t intervened more around Cersei.
I’m just working my way through so maybe someone mentioned it… It sounds like you’ve forgotten that Trystane was killed by the Sand Snakes on the ship? You know, the spear through the back of his head and all that…
Che,
Indeed. For the moment, I feel like I’ll be watching Chernobyl miniseries tomorrow just to recover my belief that there’s something good in this world and that our world (even when it comes to the Soviet Union) is much better, than this sick fantasy. But the night is darkest before the dawn, so I still keep hope that Jon (and Tyrion) will make it work somehow: Dany may not be the best person on the Planetos but she’s definitely worth saving.
HousePotterz,
Nice post.
Did you not see the part where she ended slavery and a centuries-old system of oppression? Unquestionably Slaver’s Bay is better off for her having been there.
Tho… that’s gotten to be “Be a smart dragon” .
Tycho Nestoris,
I don’ think Bran cares much for what happens to Dany.
HousePotterz,
Very well written!
Daario is the one person that gets Dany as a conqueror not a Queen shut away in a castle. Her and Arya may have a bit in common with the need to be on the move. Dany does tend to verbally express her worst instincts and I’m still hoping everyone can get it together cause if Dany loses how many go with her. Crossing my fingers here.
I do think that they are a bit in love with the idea of a male King.
Elizabeth,
I don’t think your comment loaded.. 😋
Lady High Heart,
Did you forget that Trystane was murdered by the Sand Snakes on his ship in the first episode of season 6??
Dark Sister,
Yes, but Missandei death would mean more to both Grey Worm and Daenerys.
Tyrion would just mildly bother Worm and give Varys a promotion.
Plus it was time Missy served a purpose beyond decoration. It did reduce the speaking POC by 50% but it is an important part of the story.
HousePotterz,
Very well written 🙂
Adam,
Khal? I wonder if we’ve met! My daughter and I went to Con last year, and I have several pics of her with a couple of Khals. (She was Oberyn.)
My husband came along for the trip, but he just hung out at the bar and admired the costumes. 😀
Lady High Heart,
I don’t think that’s the case since he got a spear shoved through his face back in S5.
fdr,
Let’s keep in mind that Jon is an apple from the same tree, and a pathological scheemer like Varys may drive crazy even the sainiest man: if Dany is too hard, Jon will be too soft; he might embark on Sansa just to decide that she is a scheemer and then to replace her with Gendry to find out that he’ll be like his father, etc. In other words, he will always be looking for a perfect ruler.
But there are no perfect rulers – just people with their flaws. And they have to learn to live and work together: rulers, lords, adwisosrs, ets. Dany is a drastic situation, but someone must come up with a plan how to win and minimise bloodshed. Otherwise, there will be both defeat and bloodshed.
So Tyrion is the merman?
They missed an opportunity to show Varys the merman doing this waggle.
Super cool of Bran to give that heads up about the iron fleet waiting for the ambush. Worthless character.
As a general rule….
Targs are great conquerors but mostly bad rulers.
Starks are slow witted but great rulers for their people.
Chilli,
I don’t think it matters who Bran cares about. What matters is the power he has and the fact that no one seems to want to use it.
I mean, have Daenerys ask Bran for help. Bran can A) reject, B) help, or C) say he can help and then not help.
The part that doesn’t read is that Daenerys doesn’t ask and neither does anyone else. So if Bran has some ill will against Daeny, when it manifests, it (the betrayal) will have foundation.
^None of this explains why Daenerys is so horrible at recon while riding a dragon.
I totally agree. And speaking of Bran, I’m still puzzled by what exactly the previous Three Eyed Raven meant by “you will never walk, but you will fly.” Can’t have been just warging into ravens, as Mr Computer has also warged into direwolves, into Hodor… in short, into creatures that walked. So, what did it mean?
Points to ponder…
1) Why the heck didn’t Dany go BEHIND Euron’s fleet an simply BBQ them? It’s not she couldn’t see the Kraken on the sails.
2) Poor Tormumd. Better luck next time.
3) Jon Snow SHOULDN’T know anything. He’s a blabber mouth.
Oh no Dee! I have a similar challenge that I am on vacation in the US for the final two episodes and hoping the place we stay has HBO. You may want to check you can still see from your tablet as I know there are region restrictions for example we cannot watch SKy GO (our version of HBO) outside the uk without using a VPN to trick the server.
I just saw that. Funny as hell. All that production and they missed that!
Jon went to STARKBucks!
Couple of my thoughts.
– Overall I enjoyed the episode, tho it had a few head scratching moments.
– How does a starbucks cup make it through editing on the world’s most expensive TV show?? Especially when the show was delayed by over a year.
– Rhaegal is fish food people. The last bolt literally imploded his neck. He gone.
– Their version of ‘Never have I ever’ during the booze-feast just felt, goofy.
– Gendry, poor fella. At least he’ll always have that romp on the rice sacks.
– Ghost, comeON Aegon. Give the pup a Milkbone and a pat on the head.
– The comment about the Prince of Dorne was out of left left field.
– WHAT DA FUQ DOES BRAN DO ON THIS SHOW? His character, I just don’t know anymore.
-Cersei – Please make her death (and we better see her deader then hell) the most epic one on this show.
– 2 weeks left. Holy cow
Rodent,
He’ll warg and disable (possibly kill) an uncontrollable Drogon.
Hey Guys . I Have a Question.
when tormond was praising Jon in the feast , he said “i saw him riding that thing and that’s why we all agreed to follow him”
what is “That Thing” that Jon Rode ?
does he mean a dragon ?
because i can’t remember jon riding anything back in season 5-6 , except a horse .
Sam,
I totally agree Sam. This show has been a big part of our lives for years now. That alone, without character deaths, makes me want to savor every minute.
Arya also sent Nymeria away in season 1 and both are still alive and well. 🙂
Apollo,
I didn’t realize it was Dany’s dragons, my mistake and for the wildfire I thought it was from the sept. Good to know, I thought it was all about the history. Thanks for the clarification!
Joey,
AGREED!!! I never knew the showrunners took the money bait of Star Wars and all but abandoned the chance for an excellent last season. Divided and pressured to make good on the incoming money and “oh well” attitude of the finishing show. SAD!!! I will not watch their Star Wars show! Yes I’m being petty but still.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I agree with your comments. I’m angry at the show for not okaying more episodes to flush out these characters and the story. This episode felt odd, disjointed and rushed at times. I’m not sure Dany would have disregarded all of the advise and endangered her wounded dragon to rush off literally the next day to fight the “last fight”. Game of Thrones has held my interest because of the rich character developments, the world and wild storylines. (Thank you George RR Martin.) I never jumped out of an episode for plausibility the way I did in this episode. I feel a lot of the work from George RR Martin was undermined with this rushed episode. Jon and Dany felt out of character and Sansa’s slanted change this season seems too abrupt and not true to her character. However, Arya and the Hound seemed true to themselves and the story. Also, boo to the amateur writer who again decided in episode 2 to knock Jon’s height, Dany: “Someone taller”. I’m so sick of writer’s “clever” hobnobs that bounce me out of the story. These dialogue hits remind me of immature teenager comments made to try and sound clever.
“Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” still remains as their lowest rated of the series (for now) at 6.21. That episode of course has gotten to carry the worst rating on every site. As I’ve written on this site before, I think UnX3 is a pretty solid episode that was downgraded to oblivion due to two very short scenes (mainly the one).
No episode of this show is worthy of a 1 vote from anyone. Viewers may not like what the characters do and say but it’s still a very well presented program with great acting and visuals. A 1 rating should be reserved for productions that are awful across the board.
I’m hoping that Jon doesn’t die in this war against Cersei (I’m resigned that he will). It isn’t really his fight. Daenerys lost Rhaegal but so did Jon. Jon sent Ghost away. I’m wondering if that means Jon is still a bit unsure who he is, but he has been wearing Stark armour again. (Btw, how did he find his cloak in all the mess?)
I’m pretty sure Jon and Arya will meet up in KL but whether he sees Sansa and Bran again, I don’t know.
I did find it interesting that Jon lead the funeral and not Dany or Sansa. I honestly thought Jon’s influence in the North was over but maybe it was just that Dany and Sansa were too upset.
Sorry to pick on you but this post is a perfect example of a criticism of the show from somebody who has not been paying attention enough.
This episode he mentions how he is in the past mostly. Last episode he says to Theon: “Everything you did brought you to where you are now. Where you belong. Home.” what if messing with Dany’s future would have a worse outcome for the overall future? He sees purpose for things happening.
Very good post!
Yeah, but it looked like it would have been pretty hard to shoot them toward the back with the masts and sails in the way. 😉
I feel bad for showrunners who have to account for every last person trying to find a loophole to their story.
Man the internet stinks sometimes. Lol
Jon’s speech made him sound like a king, I really liked that scene. Brianne and Jaime, finally, we have blue cubs, but then he does what??!! Doesn’t make any sense for his character arch. I expect Arya, the Hound, Daeny, Drogon, and all of Daeny’s army to die in the next episode. I don’t know what the hell the writers are doing, but they don’t seem to be giving much of a damn about the character’s arch’s, or the viewer’s time and emotional investment. And people need to get off Daney about going crazy. She is not crazy she is alone. She just watched another one of her children die in front of her, her relationship with Jon is shaky, to say the least, and she is mourning Ser Jorah, give her a break.
Rasool Sharifi,
I think Tormund was just drunk hyping a buddy 🙂 He wasn’t the most coherent there, as shown in this exchange:
Sort of reminds me of times when I get stoned with friends 😉
Adrianacandle,
Yeah Tormund was so completely drunk there. I actually liked the levity of that scene. Jon saying ‘vomiting is not celebrating’. It showed the difference between Jon and Dany though. He is approachable but she is not. That was sad for Dany.
WhiteSparkle,
No you are 100 percent correct. I’ve been resisting coming to terms with it for a few Seasons now, but this has now gone far beyond my worst fears of how much they could mess things up. I honestly don’t even know where to begin. And I’m not even a book-reader!
Isn’t that the problem? That Dany views her dragons as children. We all know that person who treats their dog as a child. It is weird.
Both Dany and Cersei will have lost 3 of their “children” by the end of this. Both will have cause their deaths by being reckless with their handling of them.
GRRM…. Women go mad.
George Lucas…. Women are reason why men go evil.
Tolkien… oh that is too long to unpack.
And yes Dany is crazy. In season 2 she threatened to burn cities to the ground when somebody didn’t give her ships. She is the definition of crazy.
Jon Snowed,
No I know, I do have restrictions for my streaming services with CRAVE TV for regions but I have another way 😉 lol
When I was in China for work a few years ago they had HBO Asia, but in China they remove violence and nudity…. I don’t think it is the same in Korea… but who knows. I think my hotel will have HBO ASIA so I will have to see.
If you are going to be in the USA and you are staying at a hotel, most likely there will be HBO!
The Bastard,
Talking about bastards :
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that Gendry doesn’t know is name ?
Isn’t he supposed to be Gendry Waters as a bastard born in KL ? Before he propose to Arya, he tells her that he is not Gendry Rivers no more??? WTF !!
Did I missed something ? Was he born in the Riverlands ?
A maybe minor point for the episode as a whole, but I don’t see Jaime as leaving Brienne because he’s just a jerk and is going back to Cersei because he loves her so.
He initially made his decision to stay in the North with her, and seemed perfectly content and (as Tyrion noted) happy with his decision. Then, two things happened: Bronn pops up and tell Jaime and Tyrion that Cersei wants them both dead – nothing new to Tyrion, but Jaime didn’t seem to be expecting it. Then after that, he finds out that Daenerys has lost a dragon and that Cersei holds one of her advisors hostage.
So Jaime now realizes that Cersei wants him dead, AND she appears to be winning the battle. If she wins and remains Qot7K, his life would always be in danger – and by extension, so would Brienne’s, if he stayed in the North with her. Because he knows Cersei, and knows the lengths she will go to in order to get revenge on someone… and man, if she found out that not only had Jaime walked away from her, but was with another woman, she would go completely ballistic.
I suspect he’s either on his way back to her with the intention to kill her, or maybe (because I’m not sure he would murder her with the baby and all) just to get away from Brienne to keep her safe from Cersei, because staying with her would put a huge target on her. And knowing how Cersei would hurt her, he deploys the old Tyrion tactic of “drive her away by being mean”, just to try and make sure Brienne doesn’t follow him and potentially get herself captured and tortured.
In short, although the scene made him look like a callous ass, I’m pretty certain he is trying to protect Brienne because he loves her.
Ghostgirl,
I agree, I really loved the levity there – with Tormund and Sansa encouraging Jon to chug a horn-full of wine (that feels familiar!) and them all just palling around. I also liked the smiles Jon and Dany exchanged in that scene before, as Dany would say later, she remembered the sobering reality of their situation and she was witnessing what she once experienced much of across the Narrow Sea – Jon being beloved by the people around him, because they know him and like him, while Dany has yet to experience that in Westeros. It was kind of heartbreaking.
Ghostgirl,
That scene for Dany was heartbreaking.
TR,
I agree, as a viewer I felt very cheated by last nights episode. Sadly this whole season has felt rushed and like the writers just want to get it over and done. They don’t seem to be staying with the character’s arch’s that they have built for the past 7 seasons. If they don’t pull a rabbit out of the hat with these next 2 episodes, I will be done with HBO, and NOT be buying the box set.
Anyone else notice the Starbucks cup?
The Many-Faced Goddess,
You make a lot of good points, I hope you are right
This episode, like much of this season and last, feels too rushed. I feel like, as others have said, that we are getting the Sparknotes version of the story. I also feel that D&D are twisting characters and motivations in order to fit specific plot beats they want to hit, rather than doing the work to have the story develop organically. Making the characters wilfully stupid or OOC so that you can have contrived drama or have a reason to get a character from point A to point B, is the reason I stopped watching The Walking Dead several years ago. It’s simply hard to stay vested, when the characters with whom you are connected, behave in ways that are nonsensical. It’s disappointing, to say the least. So many things that are now, not going to pay off. A once complex and beautifully layered story, that seems to be on it’s way to an ending that is too condensed.
Sanrya,
Grrm will have to condense too if hes going to finish in two books
Adrianacandle,
Dee Stark,
I really did feel for her. She rode a dragon as well! I think it does show how Jon can fit in with people and Dany struggles. She is always ‘Your Grace’, ‘my Queen’ etc. I can see why that scene made her truly worry about her claim to the IT. If it became a choice between Dany and Jon it would seem that Jon gets a lot of support. I just wish they had shown a scene where she seemed truly happy not to be the last Targ.
WhiteSparkle,
I feel the same. It’s strange that a show can bring out so many emotions, but following it from the beginning and being so invested, IDK, maybe we just expected too much from the writers.
I think I’m a bit shocked that some people are so sure that Dany dies, or that she goes Mad Queen, or that she isn’t in charge by the end.
Does that not, er, completely negate eight years of story?
I’m all for surprising the audience and such, but honestly… the entire purpose of following Dany’s storyline for eight seasons was to see a young woman grow to become a power, set to use that power judiciously, even with a few bumps along the way. What narrative purpose does it serve for Dany to become a villain at the end? That all power corrupts? Fine, but then her lessons on how to be a queen are just a waste of time.
And wasting the time of the audience is NOT time well spent.
Since I’m sure that the story is still GRRM’s and the producers are merely following his outline on how things shake out, I can’t believe that George would fail on such a monumental level as to allow Dany to end up a total failure. But then, I’m pretty certain that if this does end up “more bitter than sweet,” the audience is going to rage. Yeah, again, keep the audience in suspense… but there has to be SOME rewarding payoff. Killing Dany would not be that.
The only thing that keeps me hopeful is that we were in this same predicament in season 7, everyone wondering how they could do something so monumentally stupid as pit Sansa against Arya and it ended up okay at the time. I really, really hope that’s the case here.
Ghostgirl,
yeah for sure
she also unburnt! now that’s BOSSSSSSS
ygritte,
Cersei has to wed Euron, because she must have a legitimate child. Afterwards she may kill Euron, but not before.
And that said, I wonder, whether
In fact, Cersei is very vulnerable: she depends on the GC, and the GC is paid by the IB who’s also its long-term customer. In other words, the IB can finish Cersei with a single word. And I assume Davos could convince the IB to do so, if the throne is claimed by Jon instead of Dany (or if they present a joint claim).
Reek,
True, but he has also said that he thought the show could/should go for on several more seasons, in service of telling the story.
Che,
For several years I have thought that Jon will survive, but disappear in the real North with Ghost. Now I think he will leave the Seven Kingdoms to be reunited with Ghost.
I usually don’t predict anything, but this ending seems suitable for him, without being actually happy.
Mango,
Obviously, you are correct and reasonable. It’s the same rationale D&D used in the featurettes. I just want to mourn Missandei and hate on the existing characters right now. Only for a bit. 😂😭😭
Apollo,
Exactly! Arya is being Arya, just as she should be. She will never be a lady.
The Bastard,
The reason people are upset is because the writing is actually quite disappointing from a character perspective. When you’ve watched a show for seven years, you’re going to remember dialogue and choices that it almost seems like the writers want us to forget to make this season plausible.
Example:
Season 7 Sansa: give the northern houses to the lords that were loyal to you.
Season 8 Sansa: looks appalled when Dany does exactly this and gives Storms End to Gendry.
I’m in it until the end because I’ve been here since the first episode aired…but that doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to be disappointed that a show that was so incredible because of the complex characters is now making those characters incomprehensible for the sake of rushing to the finish line.
Is it full circle if Varys is the reason for Dany’s death?
He was the reason she was almost assassinated in season 1.
Guys im stressed
I can’t see that happening. The Lord of Light giveth, and taketh away: Beric was brought back repeatedly just to make sure he was in the right place at the right time to keep Arya alive to battle the Night King. Jon *has* to have been given new life for a specific, yet untold reason. I really don’t think he’ll survive to the end, and I’m okay with that.
I’ve seen you write the Sansa& Gendry thing multiple times and haven’t commented on it until now. I just want to know what about their characters makes you think they’re a “perfect match?” Is it simply like most of the Jonsa people that at the root of their desire is just wanting the best available man for Sansa? For starters they haven’t said one single word to each other yet. Gendry is in no way the type of man that Sansa has ever taken notice of – books supported as well. Gendry may now be (sort of) legitimized but he’s still not a lordly type of man in his mind or persona. If it continues to the point that he will be after the war I actually wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up relinquishing his seat as Lord Paramount of Storm’s End realizing and stating, “That’s not me.” If he and Arya both live through to the last I still think they’ll be together in some fashion.
I won’t say that the S&G pairing isn’t a possibility, but what I wouldn’t like is them just sticking them together out of nowhere in the last episode. That’s what they’d have to do now and that to me does not say “perfect match.”
Adrianacandle,
thank you .
i thought that maybe i missed something before , despite watching the show at least hundreds of times .
I Love that part when he talks about Jon fighting everywhere and gets very drunk/exited and spills his drink .
Ghostgirl,
Yeah, and she has nobody to drunk hype her exploits (Greyworm and Missandei are new to wine!). However, that stuff takes time. Tormund and Jon have 6 years of very intense, significant history and became deeply bonded Fire Forged Friends after facing death personified together and working toward a common goal of saving his people. Dany could get something like that too! She has some significant disadvantages working against her in way of reputation and being viewed as a foreigner, which so sucks, but I wish the writers would have had Dany realize this is in her wheelhouse if she was patient and worked on having a relationship with the people of Westeros.
But I totally understand how hurt she must be. It’s sort of like going to your boyfriend’s party after participating in a big school project with them: they’ll formally acknowledge your efforts like Tormund did with Dany but she’s not yet one of the gang.
And I also wish the writers had Dany being happy, if conflicted, she’s not the last of her line.
Inga,
I think the episode title, “The Last of the Starks”, may be prophetic. Since Bran won’t father a Stark child, there won’t be anyone with the Stark name after this generation dies.
Adam,
Jon’s true identity was ALWAYS, I repeat ALWAYS, going to be a source of conflict. Internal conflict for someone who always defined himself as the son of a particular person, and who grew up to accept his bastard status then suddenly is told that everything he believed made him who he was was simply a lie. Gotta say that Jon is handling this as well as anyone could have hoped and in character too.
It was always going to create conflict with Daenerys. Daenerys has been proclaiming to be a true dragon (to the point that she let her husband murder her brother) and the true heir to the Iron Throne since season one. She has never deviated from the belief that the Throne of Westeros belongs to her, as if she created it/bought it and someone came a grabbed it from her hands and ran away, and that anyone who sits on it is simply an usurper. So now she knows that there’s someone who has a stronger claim for the Targaryen inheritance. Someone who was likely born into his crown (Aerys and Rhaegar having died before his birth) and the only person who can actually claim the crown was taken from him. In theory, Dany can claim she wishes for a family, but she grew up without one so she doesn’t truly appreciate the value of one. It is rather tragic for her but she still has time to temper her dragon and reach out for happiness. Her visions in the HOTU, showed her future. Kingslanding will be left in ruins with Snow on the throne, she reaches out but never gets her hands on the throne because she’s distracted. She goes past the Wall and finds her family there but she also turns her back on that to dracarys someone. She does not need to turn her back on her family now. Jon is not making a claim on his rightful inheritance and that should be enough of an olive branch to Dany so that she in turn, let’s the North be independent but an associate if need be.
And of course it would create conflict for those surrounding Jon and Dany. Like most elections in most countries, everyone has a favorite candidate, very rarely is there anyone with the full support of the majority of the citizenry.
This! Before the start of the season, I hoped that Dany would feel happy about the news that she’s not the last Targ, that she’s got family. Alas, that’s not so GOT-y though, I guess. 🙂
Cosca,
All Dany had to do was fly around Euron’s Ships and attack them from the backside where the Scorpions were not placed. That’s aeronautical tactics 101.
Dany’s biggest problem is that she has no military commanders to give her basic advice. Tyrion has been outsmarted by his sister at almost every turn.
Man, the direwolves. I was sure we’d see Nymeria and her pack save Arya. I was also sure Ghost would be dead, so at least there’s that. But leaving him in the North?
They could have just had his injuries so severe he couldn’t walk, or something like that. Would have been pretty emotional to see him try to stand up and follow Jon south.
The details of plot and world mechanics are certainly of declining significance in these last seasons. The end must be near as I’ve seen the telling sign. Not a red comet but rather a coffee cup.
Don’t get me wrong I still get value and get enjoyment from the show, but the fate or destiny of the characters are the bread and butter now. The means of learning their destinies will be as predicable and sensical as a lord of light prophecy however.
Just two episodes left, writers forge your blades. Yes it will kill.
How to decimate the entire series in 2 weeks.
That’s how I’ll look back upon episodes 803 and 804.
I sat through 7 and a half seasons of Dany’s arc only for it to be rendered meaningless as she goes Mad Queen in the final 3 episodes. Okey dokey guys.
I’ll also never be able to get over the fact we never got to see the reaction of Sansa and Arya to learning who Jon is. What the hell kind of nonsense is that?
Had there been no books to go by, ‘The Rains Of Castamere’ would have been universally panned. I’m convinced of it. The fact that this episode is so lowly rated is proof of it, IMO. This amount of hate isn’t because of fans feeling like the Euron ambush didn’t make sense and that they should have been aware of him. Or that Cersei should have just killed Dany outside of the gates. Those are reasonable criticisms. But logistical stuff doesn’t drive the majority of fans nuts.
The hate is because of the direction of Dany’s character and where it is headed. The book stans refuse to believe this is straight out of George’s mouth to D&D’s ears. It’s amazing.
And I’m not knocking legitimate criticisms. I’m just claiming that those wouldn’t drive thousands of people to rate it a 1 out of 10. This episode was far better than any episode in season 7, and IMO , the best this season. For it to be regarded as the worst in the show’s history is insane.
I’ll predict next week will probably be rated lower, because some truly crazy Red Wedding-esque shit is about to go down.
Sundancer,
There’s a couple ways to get around that. Sansa could marry someone from a smaller House that agreed to take the Stark name (see also; the original Joffrey Lannister), or have a bastard legitimized by Queen Dany/King Aegon. I suppose the King/Queen could probably pick anyone, and name them a Stark, but the first two options keep the bloodline and House.
Wow. What an episode!… (though it almost felt like two). I loved it.
I like it that they took their time with the funeral scene = grief, mourning, respect for the fallen. Sansa placing that direwolf pin on dead Theon’s body had me bawling.
And who can forget that magnificent, haunting picture: map markers, armies, turned into funeral pyres.
My second most favourite scene in this episode was the long Great Hall scene.
It starts quite quiet, respectful, funeral like but gradually turns more and more noisy and cheerful. I loved all the mini-dramas in it. Even in the background. I’m sure many noticed Pod chatting up not one but two serving wenches.
Dany makes clever political moves, legitimising Gendry and making him Lord of Storm’s End. Toasts Arya Stark, the hero of Winterfell. Sansa observes her. Later Dany (alone at her end of the table except for Varys) observes the goings on. The Lannister brothers and Brienne laughing, drinking, having a grand old time. Jon surrounded by northmen and wildlings, drunk Tormund accidentally calling Jon a king (though he earlier raised a toast to the dragon queen).
Gotta love drunk Tormund – and I’m sure Kristofer Hivju had a lot of fun with that magnificent drinking horn! Gotta love heartbroken Tormund. The penny drops and he chooses the exact wrong person on whose shoulder to cry on, haha.
It was such a great scene. We even got Bran showing some emotion about Tyrion’s callback to the saddle he designed back in S1. We got “SanSan” closure, the Hound even giving a chuckle when he heard how Sansa had dealt with Ramsay.
My absolute favourite scene of this episode, and perhaps all of GoT ever is, of course BRAIME!!!!
It went down just as I’d imagined. So wonderfully awkward! Neither of them very experienced in flirting or seduction, hahaha!
Jaime: Phew, it’s hot in here. Let me take off my clothes.
Brienne: Oh, FFS, let me do it for you!
I must say “I’ve never slept with a knight” sounds a hell of a lot better than “I’ve never slept with anybody but my sister.”
I love it how Jaime comes in and tries to be all snarky and light, his usual (outward) persona, but he can’t quite hide his insecurity and jealousy, and Brienne twigs onto that. She knows at that moment that he cares, loves her. From then on, it’s very much Brienne’s choice.
OK, I had a Braimegasm watching that scene. Brienne besmirched her honour with Jaime. Bliss.
!!!! PEAK BRAIME !!! PEAK BRAIME !!!
Because of course it can’t last, no long honeymoons in Winterfell, running hand-in-hand through the… uhm, snowy fields. Even in the “afterwards” scene we see Brienne sleeping, Jaime looking at her, then turning to look at the ceiling, not looking blissfully happy, more like troubled.
Add the Bronn scene, his assessment Cersei is good as dead. Add later scene when Jaime sees Sansa and Brienne, hears the news about Euron’s attack. Cue next scene. Brienne’s bedroom, then outside.
Jaime doesn’t look exactly conflicted when staring into the fire, more like thoughtful. Looks over to Brienne sleeping in the furs. Camera pans to her, she wakes up to door closing, sees Jaime’s chair empty.
Now, the courtyard scene. Jaime trying to act and look all nonchalant, like he doesn’t care, like it doesn’t matter, just saddling his horse. Brienne talks sense, then all but begs Jaime to stay. Stay with her. He’s not like Cersei, he’s a good man.
afjrvskjvkm the way Jaime looks into Brienne’s eyes. Even nods (gods, NCW was sooo perfect in that moment!). Looks to the side, down… and then launches into his speech about the bad things he’s done – for Cersei. “She is hateful. So am I.” Sobbing, crying Brienne is left in the courtyard while Jaime rides away.
OK, people’s opinions might vary, but what I take away from that scene was Jaime being deliberately cruel (especially in evoking Cersei all the time) to make sure Brienne does not try to follow him, to a needless death. He was protecting her.
I don’t know what Jaime’s plan is, what might happen to him. Valonqar? I’ve always thought Cersei would be the death of him, directly or indirectly. He’s on that path now. Backsliding? Hmnn, maybe not to Cersei, but there’s that unborn child. Protect the innocent, all that.
Talking about the unborn child… Cersei manipulates Euron with her pregnancy, like she did first Jaime and then Tyrion in S7, classic Cersei. But is there even a pregnancy? She’s not showing much, considering Gilly must’ve got pregnant around the same time or later in S7, and she’s pregnant enough for Jon to notice it when gently hugging her.
Good segway to the Jon leaving the North scene. They piled it on. Tormund using phrases like “home” and “where we belong”. Jon actually saying “A direwolf does not belong in the south, he’d be happier up there”, Tormund “So would you.”
[Ghost: Fuck this shit. I lost an ear for my human. Now he’s giving me away to his pal because he’s got a newer, cooler pet. I’m outta here.
D&D: Hooray, we’ve finally got rid of the direwolf budget. Hm. Now, what can we do to the dragon budget…]
Sorry to have gone on for so long, I got distracted by all the Braime stuff.
I liked the Hound/Arya scene, even though it seemed a bit fan-servicey and repetitive. Oh, and poor Gendry! 🙁 But never say never, maybe that ship hasn’t quite sunk yet. Speaking of which, what is Arya’s problem with being a “lady”? Is it her childhood resentment of Sansa? The patriarchical society that Westeros is? (In which case she should use her status as a highborn lady to push against narrow gender roles.) Or her traumatised and brainwashed personality? Or – dare I say it – internalised, stereotyped, slightly misogynistic idea of what a “lady” should be? C’mon, Arya! Look at LADY Lyanna Mormont! She was younger than you are, did all you wanted to do as a child. Hm?
Oh, and waxing all high and mighty and guilt-tripping Jon about family in the Godswood, only to leave them all and apparently not intending to come back the next day. Lone wolf – pack… Are D&D showing, telling us something here?
Sorry, this post is too long already.
Missandei and Grey Worm have a happy love moment (never a good thing in GoT) and Tyrion and Varys have a political moment. I’m so glad we’re having the Spider back! Tyrion and Varys aren’t exactly on the same page in the later Dragonstone scene. It was a bit ominous.
Anyway, the last scene, the parley was so intense! The music! Such suberb acting from all. Cersei raised her hand and looked triumphant… but she couldn’t bring herself to do it, have her brother killed (Book!Cersei would’ve done it in a heartbeat. But I think D&D did well to make her more nuanced than the foolish, stupid cartoon villain she is in the books). Euron side-eyed her a bit for that.
Also, I was half expecting Tyrion to accidentally spill the beans “… if not for yourself, then for your and Jaime’s baby…” Cue Euron side-eyeing even more! lol!
Poor Missandei. Her final defiance, her futile “Dracarys!”. But sending a message that will reverberate with Dany. Fire and blood it is.
The saddest thing is that Missandei died in chains. A life she thought she had escaped, been freed from thanks to Dany. And Evil Queen Cersei puts her right back there and is just as bad as any slaver.
Oh, and great props to Jacob Anderson’s (Grey Worm) acting when he saw Missandei, his new life, his love, all his hopes and plans so summarily executed by Evil Queen Cersei.
OK, I don’t care who kills Cersei. Fire and blood dragon Dany, super ninja assassin Arya, valonqars Jaime and Tyrion, anybody! Mad pirate Euron, some prophecied hero, Jon Snow, anybody! Ectopic pregnacy gone wrong, fast advancing liver disease. Anything! Just, please. She’s got to be destroyed.
Sorry for stupidly long post.
I disagree. He must tell and let the cards fall where they may. He can not control what people do, and he musn’t try to. If people die because of it then that’s tough. He didn’t give the order to kill anyone, and he wouldn’t want anyone killed. But, nor should he set himself up as a censure. He needs to be honest, and if their are dishonourable people around who will use the information to their own ends and hurt other people by doing so then they should identify themselves by doing so, so people know who they are. It is sad that people would be hurt by it, but as Bran would say, it is those actions that brought us to where we are now. So, put your cards on the table and at least keep yourself clean. The others can fight over the scraps if that is their go.. If Jon is marked to die because of his actions, then I am sure he will be the first to put his neck on the chopping block just as Ned did. This kind of thing is not about self preservation first. This type of thing is about keeping your honour intact and retaining your memory in good standing. If infants were involved then you would lie for them, and in so doing, you would still manage to keep your honour intact. But, lying just for the sake of your own hide? there is no way to keep your honour intact once you start doing that.
orange,
Thank you, I said the same thing last night, why did they cut that? It would have made for such a great scene, but the writers just half assed it again.
So you didnt pay attention properly and are now mad that the show is not going in the direction you predicted.
Dany was showing signs of madness in season 2. The last 2 seasons they kept on saying how she needs to be held in check because her impulses are poor.
OK, now I’ll go and see what the recap actually says, and all the other commenters. I might be some time… 🙂
Lady MarMar,
It is Dany who asks Jon for the impossible -to deny his own (superior) birthright in favour of her own self-centred idea of her destiny. Bad wife material…
Jon Snowed,
I’ve been wondering if the pregnancy foreshadowing was just misdirection after all. Since there only seems to be a day passing between episodes, there doesn’t seem to be enough time for her to know she’s pregnant, if she is.
Cameryn,
Daario was right in assessing that Daenerys was a Conqueror not a Ruler/Queen. A dragon is not slave nor a ruler, a dragon destroys, kills and maintains power by implementing the seed of fear. Daenerys more often than not, especially when she encounters resistance, gives herself to her dragon instincts. She was always commenting on Viserys’ ‘wake the dragon’ threats, she never realized that she too fell into that trap. Look, Daenerys is the perfect example of becoming what you always fear you would become. And she’s always been aware that this is the route that her life could go: If look back, I am lost. Sometimes it pays to look back, only to see where you have gone wrong and avoid the mistake in the future.
One point that bothers me is the fact that Tyrion has always been presented as clever, a reader, good memory, and obsessed with Dragons. So how can he have seen Jon ride a dragon and not immediately wondered how he could be doing that without being a Targaryen? (Operating under the premise that D&D have stayed not the books that only Targa can ride a dragon)
The Tyrion from early seasons would have recognized that and began to unravel how that was possible. But he had to wait for Sansa to tell him and he had no clue. For that matter, I would have thought Varys would have started piecing that together as well.
BeardedOnion,
Your comments are spot on with your usual stance, narrowed to mainly two characters with predictable words. You focus on everything Sansa does is accurate and proper and everything Daenerys does is evil without basis and then bitching about people pointing out any flaws in Sansa’s actions. Plenty of people do the same against Daenerys but you’re just fine with that huh. I think many to most are seeing how they’re both doing things in a rather poor manner that includes anything from anger, jealousy, personal desire, etc.
orange,
Dany’s arc has had hints of Mad Queen since the first season. Since the very first episode she has always been shown as someone who has always lived surrounded by only a handful of people, and her attitude has always been shaped by those closest to her. However, when left to her own impulses she has always been someone who has no problem threatening with destruction anyone who will not get her what she wants or do as she says, innocents be damned.
It just happened that since she came into power she always had people to temper those worst impulses and to her credit she usually listened. However, one by one she has been losing those better angels in her shoulder, which is why now she seems on the brink of going full Mad Queen.
Joey, I think you have missed something 🙂 this is the best season by far. This is a terrific season. They could have made this season 40 episodes long and I would remain enthralled with it all the way through. 😀
I don’t know why anyone thinks Jaime has gone back to Cersei out of loyalty or love or whatever. I never once thought that – it’s clear his intention is to go back to KL to kill her. He is repulsed by himself and all of the things he did for love of her and wants to end it. He knows he doesn’t deserve Brienne and that is why he left her to try and make amends for his part in enabling Cersei to become what she has.
Jon not saying a proper goodbye to Ghost was bullshit!!!
I picked up on the after the episode recap with D&D, they said so many times people have underestimated Dany and she’s always come up with something amazing that nobody expected. I think they have set it up to look like Dany is going mad and doesn’t have much of a shot against Cersei, but we will have to wait and see… some of Dany’s most amazing moments have come from her grief and when people have underestimated her. I think she might surprise us all next week.
I don’t think it’s Sansa’s plan to put a target on Jon by giving away his secret, I think she genuinely can’t stand Dany and doesn’t want her to be queen – she wants people to know about Jon in the hopes that they will take up for him instead of Dany because she knows Jon won’t put himself forward.
I did find it very puzzling that after Euron’s ships just took out a dragon and decimated Dany’s ships, they didn’t finish them off. Just allowed them to swim to the shore and recuperate while they sail back to KL… ok…
Direcat,
That confused me too. If anything shouts TARGARYEN! it is riding a dragon. (R.I.P. Rhaegal) Why didn’t Varys and Tyrion start piecing it together?
Elizabeth,
Bran is a warg and a greenseer, like Jojen, hence he has prophetic dreams. He can see glimpses of the future. Remember his dream of the sea washing onto Winterfell (Ironborn).
There was just something not right about the Missandei execution scene. Particularly Tyrion’s speech, the whole set up and the way it was shot. I am smelling a twist with that.
Down with my ships
I think part of this is the whiplash of a shortened story line, because things that have been building (including ships) for years in the show and longer in the books are coming to fruition and being set aside for the next thing too fast for us to process on first viewing.
Jon-He is introduced as being one of the most important characters in the beginning, and his identity is the undercurrent of so many story lines. The Bastard. Cat’s treatment of him which guided Sansa’s treatment of him. Ned’s pained silence at his treatment to keep his secret safe. Benjen’s conversations with him and attempt to dissuade him from NW (because Benjen knew). R+L=J stands between Ned and Robert for most of their adult lives. And in the show, the only visions Bran are shown with the exception of NK is of Jon’s parents and his birth at the Tower of Joy.
Now we’ve had the reveal and we don’t see his sister’s reactions and it feels like it’s just being used as a wedge between him and Dany. Worse, it makes her look bad.
I can understand Dany being upset that Tyrion and Jaime are huddled and that people are praising Jon riding a dragon when she does it all the time, she saved his ass and lost Jorah in the process. (PS I can also understand why she’d be upset because every time she tries to help or listens to her advisors she loses someone. Jorah and Missandei and Rhaegal…those were her last straws)
I can’t understand why Dany would say she loved Jon more than Jorah, then take something so profound for Jon–discovering who his mother was, that he isn’t a bastard, that Ned suffered to protect him, that he mattered–and ordering him to keep it his dirty little secret, despite his stated and proven loyalty to her and her awareness of his character and connection to family. She didn’t even suggest they marry. She didn’t even say, this must be hard for you, or I know you’re a Stark and a Targaryen, or I thought I was alone in the world. Just throne stuff.
(I do feel a little bad for her because he’s clearly not the kind of guy who can get over the “you’re my aunt” thing, so she’s losing him emotionally as well as thinking of him as a threat)
And btw Sansa did put him in danger by telling Tyrion. Because Dany has a dragon and Jon is not fireproof, and Cersei would focus on him more than she is right now. Hopefully Arya will watch his back while she’s on her new mission.
Basically Jon’s two very important story lines that made his character so pivotal have been either abruptly ended or are being used by others in a way that is not conducive to Jon having a satisfying…anything. I hope I’m wrong, but when he left everyone who was loyal to him-apart from Davos-behind in Winterfell, it didn’t bode well.
I’m still hoping for Gendry and Arya. Sandor even gave his grumpy blessing. Sure, he jumped the gun a bit, but everyone was drinking and he’d just gotten a name, so maybe he can rethink things a little. Baratheons are stubborn as well as dark of hair.
Jaime and Brienne has been my one true ship in books and show from the start. They faced death together, more than once. And I’ve said this before, she knows him better than Cersei does and loves him. She knows where he’s going before he tells her, but I do think it was a misdirect (her sobbing broke my heart).
Granted, book Jaime left Cersei long before show Jaime did. And I was so surprised he stayed after she used the wildfire, because it went against even his show character, so I’m not 100% sure what he’ll do now. But regardless, I think he finally sees what he never let himself see before about himself and the things he’s done. And that’s because he experienced what he did with Brienne (which was more than one night stand btw, since they were in bed twice-which with the fast time frame currently in place implies weeks or months) Sometimes to know how wrong something is, you have to experience something right. He was finally fighting on the right side, for something truly worthwhile. And he finally got to experience pure, honest unconditional love.
I really really hope he ends Cersei and comes back to my girl. More than Sam and Gilly have to have a happy-ish ending with a potential future, or else it’s just a tragedy, and people are using the word bittersweet incorrectly.
Sundancer,
Grayven Reyne,
Also, it could become a matrilineal House as House Mormont had become (both in the books and show). There is no reason why Sansa could not carry on the Stark name in her own right, other than House Stark being traditionally patrilineal.
Liked lots of things about this episode –
Jon’s speech, the strength and emotion in his voice were spot on.
Dani’s feeling of isolation at the dinner. Her “I just told you how,” to Jon later on was whoah! very mad queenish!
The tension in the ‘war’ room between Dani and Sansa!
What I did not like: Jaime and Brienne. It was clunky, brusque and unromantic. Also, Bronn’s scene, it made no sense. “I’ll shoot you with this bow, if I don’t get a castle!” A ridiculous threat.
Joey,
You may want to reconsider the logic of your whinging if you think this, considering that Cersei and Euron have had about 5 minutes of screen time out of about 4 – 5 hrs of show so far.
This is the same trouble I’m having with the show. Let’s take the best possible option to become ruler, the most powerful female character on the show, the one who wanted to ‘break the wheel’ and protect humanity from itself, and sacrifice her because she can’t control her temper or is somehow descending into “madness”.
If that is the direction they’re going with Dany, then I’ll consider the last eight seasons to have been a waste of time.
Didn’t need to see Sansa and Arya facial reactions, not necessary. Only what they do with the info is important.
Is Tyrion foolish enough to not know that Sansa is playing him with the info?
Tyrion not becoming a pin cushion was not believable.
Jon’s relationship with Ghost was never really developed on the show. So how he left is OK for TV Jon. Ghost was not his “baby” as Dany considers her dragons.
Bronn’s scene was the only one that felt wrong. Highgarden? Really? He should know that is one promise that won’t be kept.
The Iron Fleet wasn’t forgotten. It was dismissed due to air superiority. The massive scorpions are newly fielded anti-aircraft weapons.
Dany’s Arc was always going to be Mad Queen. Dracarys.
Starting to think Arya will take Cersei’s face and then abdicate the throne, maybe to Gendry, since he has been made a lord.
Cameryn,
I’ve been wondering about his purpose, too. Some of us expected Beric to give the kiss of life to someone important who had died at the Battle of Winterfell. Maybe Jon gives the kiss of life to Dany and then he dies? Maybe he finds out she’s pregnant before then, and he’s crazy with grief?
Wow, there have been a number of comments highly critical with statements like they have destroyed the show…These are really starting to bug me so I have to write…
I am saddened by the comments, and I’m saddened that the show is ending. Perhaps these comments are just from the frustration that “all shows must end”. I would love it, if we could follow all of the characters through the rest of their days with POV chapters that would be entire episodes. I would like to follow Arya on a “Kung Fu” type of adventure west of westeros, where she travels meeting new people and coming to their rescue with lots of flashbacks of her training with Syrio and the Hound, and the House of B&W (as one fanboy example). But the fact is we don’t get to do that and all shows must end. There are only two episodes left and then it’s over. We aren’t going to have years to live with our favorite characters and follow them (except in the books).
Sure, there can be criticisms made on certain story decisions, but I still can’t wait to see what happens next week. I have made my own criticisms over the years, but I really don’t have qualms about “The Last of the Starks”. Nothing seemed out of character to me in episode 4. I will say no one other than Robb has proven to be a skilled military leader! Everyone on the show really sucks on battle plans (other than Robb), so it really doesn’t bug me about military blunders. It’s consistent!
I think the message I take is that the world can work together against a common foe, but then people are people and they are right back at each other’s throats again. They often try to be better people, but in the end many end up being who they are… Perhaps we will get to see at least some of our characters make a change for the better. I think Theon was one who did successfully make a positive change.
Do I wish they could spend more time developing certain characters! Sure!! But we just don’t get that time anymore. I was saddened so many favorites said goodbye in this episode, and I won’t be able to follow them again until reading the books.
Dark Sister,
It’s not really about House Stark while Sansa is alive, it’s about House Stark after she (and Arya, and Bran?) are dead. To have a Stark heir, she either has to marry someone who agrees to take the Stark name, or get the King/Queen to fix it afterwards.
The same was true for House Mormont, although anyone marrying Lyanna was going to do exactly what she said, when she said it, no questions asked.
Solar,
She has never had family, friends or a home. I don’t know if she’ll find out she’s pregnant (or if that was just massive misdirection from D&D), but if she is pregnant and finds out, maybe that will cause a change in her direction?
Ha where to begin. Jon Snow is someone who has desperately been searching for a purpose and identity his whole life other than Ned’s bastard. The entire family with the exception of Rob, Arya, Bran and Ned treated him like an outsider his whole life. Damn if he doesn’t have some issues because of it. It forces him to make stupid decisions under the guise of being honorable. Of course he would tell them because it is all he ever wanted.
He and Dany are not going happen. The Targaryens go mad because they inbreed. Dany is the Mad King’s daughter with his sister. Varys is seeing the signs even if we aren’t. He has been through this before. And Jon is also well aware of her families history and in the end I do not believe he loves her not like he did Ygritte, he has never said it only she has. People are assuming he is but I believe he will come to his senses.
Seriously who the hell believed the Cersei would uphold their truce. She had them lying in wait at Dragonstone for their return. What I wonder is why Dany hesitated, she had a moment where should could have burned Euron up but she did not take it. She was fearful for her dragon for sure but there was time.
And seriously what is up with her sense of entitlement? Her family stole the throne in the first place and then tortured the residents of Westeros. A people who Dany has never lived with or cared about and doesn’t now. They are not slaves, there is no need for them to be rescued as in the other situations, she just wants the throne.
Jamie is not going back for Cersei, he is going to kill her and he knows he’s probably not coming back but poor Brienne. Bronn on the other hand will probably take one of the Lannisters out, my guess is Jamie but Jamie could also kill himself.
Ghost belongs with the freefolk but I would have loved to see some more interaction there plus more reaction with Arya and Sansa on Jon’s big reveal.
All in all I think Cersei has provoked Dany, killing Missandei was the final straw, the two of them will be at each other’s throats destroying everything and everyone in their path. In the end they will both need to be put down. Jon will not take the throne but will eventually end up with the free folk and Tyrion will take the throne….but seriously who the hell knows at this point.
RG,
I can’t understand why Dany would say she loved Jon more than Jorah, then take something so profound for Jon–discovering who his mother was, that he isn’t a bastard, that Ned suffered to protect him, that he mattered–and ordering him to keep it his dirty little secret, despite his stated and proven loyalty to her and her awareness of his character and connection to family. She didn’t even suggest they marry. She didn’t even say, this must be hard for you, or I know you’re a Stark and a Targaryen, or I thought I was alone in the world. Just throne stuff.
(I do feel a little bad for her because he’s clearly not the kind of guy who can get over the “you’re my aunt” thing, so she’s losing him emotionally as well as thinking of him as a threat)
This bothered me, too. Is there any chance this changes if/when she finds out she’s pregnant? Neither of them will want a child to be a bastard.
Dani as the mad queen – if that is where the story is going – would have played better over 2 regular length seasons because the pieces are actually all there – 1) she sustains heavy losses to her armies and two dragons (!) making her feel vulnerably 2) the people of Westeros see her as an outsider, no matter (from her perspective) what her sacrifices 3) she falls in love with someone with a better claim to the iron throne than herself, 4) she loses advisors who love her unconditionally – Jorah, Missandei – and is left with advisors she doesn’t wholly trust (Tyrion) or who are actively speaking against her (Varys).
I thought the episode was ok, but to me what is missing is the depth or intrigue that was in previous episodes. Now it seems it just plot driven instead of character driven and I think that change is what is missing.
For example, consider something like this. Instead of Bronn showing up in Ep 4, he arrives in Ep 2. He reminds Jamie that “He’s the only one that gets to kill ya” and wants to know why Jamie went to the North. Jamie asks Bronn why Bronn is there. Bronn replies about “protecting his investment.” That seems benign enough, but imagine that if that happened before the battle and then you see Bronn hanging around during the battle. Now there would have been a lot more tension to the battle why we wonder if Bronn is going to kill Jamie or Tyrion during the battle or not. Then in Ep 4, you could have had the conversation about Bronn actually being there and wanting Highgarden.
That doesn’t take lots of screen time, but would have given conflicting motives in the battle and led to lots more intrigue.
As another example, when Bran tells Arya and Sansa about Jon’s birth, it would have been better to show how that information made Sansa consider what to do with it. Her character arc has been all about learning to play the Game of Thrones, but we don’t see her even considering how to use that information to her gain. That would have taken more screen time, sure, but seeing how characters deal with a situation is how you show how a character has changed in their arc. It’s the basis of good story telling, but that is what this season has been missing.
Was the episode good? It was enjoyable. I think it was like a candy bar. The sweet tastes good in your mouth but provides no nutrition. This season has been the same – it was entertaining to watch, but it didn’t leave you wondering about what happened. Those who didn’t like are just those without sweet tooths.
Came here to say I’m losing my sh!t waiting on Oz!
Kyle14,
Where is Sam going?
That’s a good ending with Arya and the hound, but tbh, nothing can make me smile after what daeny went through in that feast. I know Jon was drunk and so therefore was justifiably insensitive. I know he was celebrating just being alive after the bfwf, I wish he had just cooled it on the source a bit.
Tenesmus,
Jon never sees Ghost as his child in the books either. He sees Ghost as an extension of him, an equal if you will, part of him. And Jon has always allowed Ghost freedom. In setting him free, perhaps he has done Ghost a kindness. He is gifting Ghost with the freedom he wishes he had for himself. Jon is a prisoner of duty and integrity, rarely has he ever broken from that – the one time he tried, family came calling and he was pushed back into the fray.
This is an interesting point. The power of a secret. Ned kept it and there was Robert’s Rebellion and Sansa did not and….we shall see. I really should say the power of the truth.
Cameryn,
It’s actually a brilliant plot element that has been executed horrendously …
this is like how they inserted a “I love you daughter “ scene between stannis and Shireen just to make it more shocking when he burns her alive a few episodes later.
Twists and character progression need to be earned
Tron79,
Well said, mate.
The rage and even hate spewed out by a loud minority on certain areas of the Internet are momentarily drowning out the majority of reasonable voices – not uncritical but generally pleased with the show.
WotW is a kind of a safe haven that way. I don’t agree with everybody here but we can discuss our differences of opinion in a fairly civil and respectful manner. (It must be a nightmare for the moderators to root out the hate-trolls!)
We’re in the end game now, and I suppose some fans might feel angry that their (often elaborate or fanboying/fangirling) head canons weren’t confirmed. They might feel like they weren’t validated. They feel betrayed. It’s their problem, not D&D’s, or GRRM’s.
I love this TV show. Of course it’s not perfect, nothing ever is. I’ve been critical of stuff I thought was nonsensical/didn’t work. Season 7 is the worst culprit. But I think S8 is knocking it out of park so far. I was a bit underwhelmed by Ep3, but I absolutely loved Ep2 and Ep4, and liked Ep1. So far, the final season of GoT is delivering for me. That’s all I care about.
It was better for the slaves, but only momentarily.
In Astapor, Cleon the Butcher quickly assumes power over the council Dany installed when she left.
“Naming himself King after he has the council executed, Cleon has all the highborn boys seized to begin training new Unsullied. Each pyramid within Astapor is now an armed camp and the dead lie in the streets and the markets devoid of food and slaves to purchase.”
We learn about Cleon in the show, but in the books Astapor is far worse. Quentyn Martell’s description of Astapor is little better than a hellscape.
In Meereen, Dany left Daario Naharis in charge, the guy who suggested she get all the masters together and butcher them all. We haven’t heard what became of Meereen in the show, but I can’t imagine it is going swell considering Dany picked arguably the worst possible candidate to stay behind and rule it.
Freeing the slaves is wonderful, and should not be left out of consideration. But it seems impossible to argue that Dany has any idea what to do after upending the social and economic fabric of that part of Essos. In many ways she simply punted the new problems she created off onto other people.
Nadia,
I have to agree 100% with this. Anyone who can look at the emotional struggle to decide whether to break her promise that was written all over Sansa’s face and say that she was only politically motivated is being willfully blind. There are some things that Sansa has done that have made me pissed off, but she is not being evil now. She fears for her family, not her political ambitions.
I think that the calculated move to not show the reactions of Sansa and Arya to the news of Jon’s parentage is a replay of the whole “tension in the Stark family” crap they pulled last season. The enormity of that news to this family cannot be understated. Their father was not unfaithful and he lied to everyone. Their aunt was not raped. Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie. Their mother hated Jon for no reason. And their cousin/brother is heir to the Iron Throne. How could they think that the reaction of the Stark sisters was not important enough to show? It would have been telling to see them emotionally processing this information.
Just been reading some of the comments on youtube (yeah, I know not the best place to look).
Many are suggesting that Jon betrayed Dany by telling Sansa and Arya the truth. I honestly don’t see it that way. I feel Dany had no right to tell him to keep quiet about something he has just learned about himself. It is up to him what he does with that information. I also think he is naive enough to believe they would keep it, well I think Arya would. If it got out anyway, I’m thinking Sam here (unintentionally), both sisters would no longer trust Jon. I think he was right to tell them.
Sansa seemed quite shaken by the news when Tyrion went to see her on the battlements.
WhiteSparkle,
Its been a TV show since season 6. That’s all we are going to get, so enjoy it for what it is. Martin had years to finish, he didn’t, so this is it.
I disagree. I don’t think making Dany the Mad Queen is brilliant at all. I think it’s a cop-out and it completely undermines eight years of production. Why must be smash all the idols here? She was going to save Westeros from itself. I think that’s a *far* more interesting story than making her give up everything she’s worked for to be ruined or die.
Cameryn,
I’m sorry, but you simply failed to see what has been there from the start. She was not set up to be the best ruler. It’s stated in the show by Daario, when he tells her she is a conqueror, not a ruler. It’s implied heavily in the last book, when the final thought, as Dany is hallucinating speaking to Viserys, is that ”dragons don’t plant trees.” Dragons are destruction. They’re not babies or children. They are nuclear weapons.
Dany has the most complex arc in the series, and I am amazed at how much I’ve grown to empathize with the character as she has become isolated. Her actions can be both viewed as understandable and troubling. But they can not be viewed as uncharacteristic.
I hate the chick flickyness the shows can sink to. I can do without the emotional treacle and romantic angst. As perverse as it might sound I was happy Melisandre bought it. Everytime she and Grey Worm were together my blood sugar shot up in the redzone.
Grayven Reyne,
Ah yes, very true. And I don’t believe “Harry the Heir” will be introduced this late in the season now. Perhaps as an easter egg? I’m assuming these questions will be addressed in the final episode potentially including a time jump to see where these characters end up and how the Stark line is continued (if at all).
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned so far was Yohn Royce. He was in Episode 2 when they were all preparing for battle and rocks up again in Episode 4. Where was he during Episode 3?
Hiding in the pantry?
I didn’t see him at all. Anyone else?
Nope, sorry, not buying it. Good drama involves characters we invest in making change to the world around them. Good drama is not watching a girl become a woman become a power over eight seasons and then watching as she self-destructs. Maybe it’s true to life, but it’s simply not as engaging.
Theon’s arc from ward to rebel to prisoner to hero was engaging.
Jon’s arc from nobody to bastard to hero was engaging.
Even Cersei’s arc has been engaging.
But not Dany’s. Not if she becomes the villain. That’s a cop-out and a cheat, and I think you’ll all find that it will dramatically backfire with the viewing public.
Solar,
Exactly. It’s not the writers’ fault that some viewers actively memory-holed all of Dany’s threats to destroy cities and slaughter people, which her closest advisers repeatedly talked her out of.
Nor is it their fault that viewers ignored the warning signs in acts like her crucifying men en masse without trial or burning a man alive to send a message to her enemies. All throughout the off-season we’ve seen people bending over backwards to justify her burning a man and his son alive, despite the show making it plain that it was wrong, and insisting that it would have no impact on the story.
There have been clear parallels between her and Stannis, Cersei and even the Night King over the past few seasons.
I’m not gonna lie, I think they could’ve done a better job of depicting her impending downfall. I wish they’d had a few more episodes to really flesh it out. Cramming her growing paranoia over Jon and the loyalty of The North, plus the death of Rhaegal and the murder of Missandei, all into one episode does feel like overkill and somewhat rushed.
Of course, none of this means that Dany is or ever has been unsympathetic. Who could blame her for being enraged by what’s happening to her and those she cares about? But the option to step back from the brink still exists.
Speaking of parallels with Stannis I think back to this conversation with Davos:
Davos: “It’s better to wait for the right time than risk everything”
Stannis: “This is the right time and I will risk everything. Because if I don’t, we’ve lost. We march to victory or we march to defeat. But we go forward. Only forward.”
If she chooses to press forward at any cost then she too faces a tragic ending.
Chilli,
In my understanding, girls should stay true to their words and promises, as much us boys. Especially Stark girls. And if being a lady was “not her”, Arya should have thought of something more “her”. Cause now “her” is just running arround and killing. And althoutgh I’m not surprised and it fits the character, in my eyes this character gets no more respect than Cersei.
In fact, all the lead female characters have been demostrating the most disgusting aspects of femininity recently. Makes me wish Jon to go north look for Gilly’s sisters.
One thing I noticed which seemed like a big crack, Qyburn is outside the castle walls after his meeting w/ Tyrion when Mountain-stein lops off Missandei’s head. Wouldn’t Dany either capture him or kill him in response? My guess though is he’s magically back by Cersei’s side next week.
Violator,
I’ve started calling him the GRRM Reaper. he is inevitable.
Lady MarMar,
I do not think that tyrions plea did fall on deaf ears. I think Cersie heard it for exactly what it was. before Tyrions plea she had tears in her eyes. as soon as she mentioned her baby, her face went hard. I am quite sure that Cersie realised that tyrion was dobbing on her to Euron.
RG,
“And btw Sansa did put him in danger by telling Tyrion. Because Dany has a dragon and Jon is not fireproof, and Cersei would focus on him more than she is right now. Hopefully Arya will watch his back while she’s on her new mission.”
________
It would’ve been nice if Sansa had admitted to Jon: “Look, I know I swore to keep it a secret, but I just couldn’t keep my mouth shut.”
Not telling him has needlessly endangered him. As Varys and Tyrion (correctly) observed, now that eight people know the secret it won’t be a secret for very long.
At the very least, Jon should know he’s got a large(r) target on his back now.
Damn. For better or worse, and despite the personal repercussions, Ned abided by his promise to Lyanna and kept the secret of Jon’s parentage his whole life to protect Jon. Sansa, within ten minutes, unilaterally decided to break her promise to Jon to keep the secret. No matter how “smart” she’s supposed to be, how can that breach of trust be justified?
The Daenerys you have enjoyed as a fan is, in the end, a woman more concerned about power than justice, cares more about ruling the Seven Kingdoms than being entitled by law and custom to do so.
Jon is selfless,; Dany is not. That’s the evidence. It is crystal clear.
I recognise and respect Dany has a strong fan base that wants to see her on the throne but equally there has been a sizeable element of the same fan base (myself included) that have thought since S3/S4 that she is slowly going down the route of breaking bad and being the final villain. She’s unlikely to go fully mad and I don’t believe Cersei is either, but we have seen how power has corrupted her and she’s shown she’s not a good ruler (despite her largely good intentions).
At this point I can’t see anything other than her reigning down fire and blood in the next episode, if you look back at the series there is a lot of set-up for this and if it happens there is no way people will accept her on the throne unless it’s through fear. Varys is turning on her and supporting Jon, she is going to turn Tyrion against her too, Jon will no longer support her once she murders thousands of common folk, so the writing is on the wall.
Finally I feel GRRM/D&D have done a great job of making her descent into villain very nuanced and subtle, so much so that many still refuse to accept it. I love how they made her loose everything (Jorah, Missandei etc,) in order to ensure she finally snaps, this is far more realistic than oh she’s the Mad Kings daughter it’s hereditary in my opinion.
At this point the only way she cannot be the final villain is if she is pregnant and begins to listen to Jon.
Inga,
I’ve got to agree with you. Arya wouldn’t have to sacrifice any of her independence by accepting Gendry’s proposal. “That’s not me” is a lame excuse.
As you know, I’m an Arya ultrafanboy, but her reaction made little sense.
Cameryn,
That’s fine and dandy. I expect a ton of people will be unsatisfied by it. But that does not change the fact that GRRM planned this from the start. It doesn’t change the fact that it has been hinted at throughout the series.
The problem I believe the show and books face, particularly the show, is how many viewers and readers expected a completely non-complex, typical fantasy story conclusion. This was never a black and white story. It was not a hero triumphs and the realm prospers type of story. GRRM has been telling us that for a decade+ and somehow people still don’t listen.
I have problems with how D&D have handled the characters in this story. I hate how the story has been rushed and become more plot driven. But I will not question that this is the theme and ending that GRRM has been building to.
Cameryn,
People who believe they are meant to save an entire people from themselves usually have God-complexes. People with God-complexes are usually a bit off their rocker. Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys are a product of incest to a very high degree with a father that became unhinged later in life. Odds were that at least one of them was going to be unbalanced, Rhaegar never showed signs. Viserys and Daenerys grew up isolated and with the constant fear of persecution. That both of them would be triggered to loose their balance is not that surprising. It is not like it came from nowhere. Add to that the amount of trauma Daenerys is trying to process in such short amount of time, how is it surprising she allows her worst instincts to take over and in the process ends up becoming what she always feared?
Steel_Wind,
The Daenerys you have enjoyed as a fan is, in the end, a woman more concerned about power than justice, cares more about ruling the Seven Kingdoms than being entitled by law and custom to do so.
Jon is selfless,; Dany is not. That’s the evidence. It is crystal clear.
Oh, I totally get that. I just felt that she would have been at least happy she wasn’t the last of her bloodline, alas she just went straight for the throne spiel. Jon is almost too selfless which is why I do think Dany will cause a huge amount of deaths and Jon won’t be too happy about it.
Oh yes, I’ve seen some of the censorship out in Asia when I was in India and watching GOT on Starworld. Therefore hoping you can watch on your tablet to get the full experience.
As for us we are staying in a holiday villa in Florida, according to the property description it has “cable TV” so hoping it will have HBO, if not will try the SkyGo via VPN on the Ipad.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I totally agree about not showing the reaction with Sansa and Arya. It’s been such a huge part of the story for them not to show the reaction of his family is a total misstep. Especially, since Bran was not the person who revealed it to him either. I feel like they could have tied up the story between the four of them better than that. That’s the only part of this episode I had an issue with.
I’m sure Cersei will commit to marrying Euron but they are both almost certain to die in the next episode in my view at least. I can see Cersei, Greyworm (at least one good guy must perish), Euron, The Mountain, Qyburn, Varys (executed by Dany for switching to team Jon) and Jamie will die. Dany is the outside bet but I think that may be held back to the finale if it happens.
Yeah I have to agree. I love Dany, but this has been an underlying theme throughout her story, especially after she lost her husband and her dragons were born. Her instinctual urges are fire and blood. She listens to reason and takes advice, and her heart has always been in the right place via freeing slaves, but it’s not coming out of the blue at all.
That’s not to say she’s anything like Cersei. Cersei is cruel because it feels good. She has zero empathy for other people, and the only people she’s claimed to love she loved because they are reflections of her. Her twin and her children. She loved Jaime less when he lost his hand, because she still had both of hers. I mean, that is a narcissistic mad and evil queen.
Dany is full of love and capable of kindness and empathy and her goals are often righteous and positive. She risked her life and her army to save the realm from destruction. But she’s also a fanatical believer in her own destiny, unwilling to accept anything other than her preordained goals, with a temper that can make her dangerous.
She will take what is hers. Her dreams come true. She is the mother of dragons and fire proof.
That could go to anyone’s head.
Now that she’s lost everything-love, most of her army, her two best friends, two of her dragons–well we’ll see what happens next.
Bor Mullet,
Sansa is not a nationalist, she’s an abomination.
Let me explain you something. Nationalism as an indeology emerged in Germany in the early 19th century and spred primarily in CEE and the slogan was “For your and our freedom”. And it still is, because small nations struggling for independence value allies very much. And that implies guest right and rules of hospitality Sansa has been violating four episodes in a row. So, sorry but comparing Sansa to a nationalist is an insult to a nationalist (though I don’t take it personaly).
Varys is definitely going to support Jon’s claim but I cannot imagine he will assassinate Dany. I suppose he could try but I feel she will kill him next episode regardless.
Yes, unfortunately, it seems that Dany’s arc is so tragic. And not deserved! And Sansa, so vain, just because you dislike a character you decide to ruin them! For a moment i previous I started to like her. Now she is turning into Littlefinger! And I don’t see how the fandom will like that!
Inga,
Arya never made a promise to Gendry, she’s been true to who she was in the past seasons. She only wanted to feel how it was to have sex, before maybe dying. My first time with a boy was a bit similar, but luckily for me there was no Night King the day after. It was also me who started it and the next day I turned him down. That’s painful to the boy of course, but when you’re young and like adventure you want to explore the world before maybe one day settling. Arya always said she was no lady and the hound doesn’t want to be a knight, they understand each other much better than Gendry ever will.
________
(Dany & Daario, from S6e10)
Dany: “You’re not going to Westeros.
You’re staying here with the Second Sons.
There’s finally peace in Meereen. You will keep the peace while the people choose their own leaders.”
Daario: “F*ck Meereen. F*ck the people. I’m here for you, not them.”
What could possibly go wrong? 🤔
Lauren,
I really feel that the show could not go much further. Not because there isn’t enough material or there isn’t enough funding, there is plenty of both. I think the reason is that Dan and Dave have a gut feeling that there is something in the wind that some of the actors can’t go much further with this. In fact I remember an interview recently where Dan and Dave said that it was remarkable that a show such as this had stayed together for 10 years and the main cast members had kept showing up. That it was amazing that in that time someone had not had a car accident and died or just plain lost interest in the show and didn’t want to act in it any more. This was clearly a real concern for them (maybe they are aware of something that we are not, I sense that NCW was on the verge of bailing and that is why he has been so big on how happy he is that the show runners are finishing it now rather than dragging it out too long.) The show runners have maintained that season 8 would be 6 episodes for quite some time now even in the face of grrm cajoling them to go another 5 episodes. So, I think that it is clear that Dan and Dave have a strong gut feeling that their luck is about to run out if they push it any further. I think that we should accept their decision on this. They have delivered magnificently every where else, so their gut instincts must be pretty good. Lets’ just have faith that they know what they are doing and move onto the prequel.
Tresha of Tarth,
Jon made it clear he wanted to tell Arya and Sansa as they deserve to know. As Dany I wouldve been more concerned about Sam, as he blurted the truth based on his anger/resentment towards her.
Inga,
Rehashing a previous conversation: guest right is about host and guest not harming each other. It has nothing to do with comity and courtesy.
And you have some backward ideas regarding gender roles… Just because you ship Arya and Gendry, it doesn’t mean that she has to deny her whole persona to fulfill your fantasy.
fdr,
I just wanted to say that feudal countries were conglomerates of authonomies on every level and they functioned based on allegiences and personal relations of bigger and smaller lords. Sure, councils and parliaments were held in many countries, but basicly it was mostly about small groups of people who didn’t need to formalize their inter-personal relations within some formal structure.
Raenarys,
<3
Clob,
Exactly my friend. Tactics, anyone? Nope, this is GoT after all…
I don’t give a stuff about that kind of garbage Dee, neither should you imo. I refuse to be told by others what I should and should not like. I much prefer to make up my own mind. Don’t even peek Dee, so much healthier for your state of mind.
Also going to say I now have to believe the only reason NO ONE has mentioned LF dying since it happened means Arya will be putting on his face.
That would be a fun scene with Sandor wouldn’t it?
Sandor: Well, you’re the hero of Winterfell, what’s your big plan now?
Arya: Hang on a minute *slips on LF*
Sandor: wtf!
talvikorppi,
I’ve always said that the 10% that’s wonky sticks out like a sore thumb, yet it gets 90% of the attention.
A little balance is only fair: Those who condemn the show for perceived misfires should commend the show for what it does so well. And I always like to keep in mind that when the showrunners undertook this massive project they didn’t anticipate they’d outpace the books and have to “fill in the blanks” with scripts they had to write, produce, film and edit on strict timetables and budgets.
I have no doubt we’d see a more polished product if the showrunners had five years between seasons. They have not had that luxury. While I don’t blame George “the Gardener” Martin, I suspect he wasn’t much help filling in the blanks between where the books left off and the final endgame. (Which is why I felt that Show!Arya was “treading water” or borrowing other characters’ plot lines – especially in S7 – since leaving Braavos.)
Does GRRM have a responsibility to give fans what they want, or should his only responsibility be to write the story as he wants? I think the reactions of fans are telling you what they are willing to accept.
I fully accept these are the themes GRRM wanted to explore and it is very closely related to his ending. The problem is the show has rushed the story and become plot driven, and they haven’t handled the characters as well as necessary for the ending to have its biggest impact.
People are still fully on board with Dany, while the characters clearly are not and I believe GRRM meant for readers/viewers to be absolutely conflicted and heartbroken about it. And the other Targ option, Jon, which characters are settling on being the better option, is viewed by many as a dim witted fuck up that they can’t support as king. I believe this is the show’s ultimate failure if Jon does survive and wind up as king.
Cameryn,
Shes not mad though.
Shes lost, confused, distraught, grief stricken, etc.
HousePotterz,
I wish I could reason and write this well on a Monday morning. Brilliantly stated.
I wonder if the episode title could refer to there being only one true Stark.
Bran is the 3 eyed raven and no longer a true Stark.
Arya is never coming back and is abandoning her heritage to be an adventurer, and here she talked about family.
Sansa is without true Stark honor, she’s manipulating and exacting, obviously plotting to destroy Dany and seat Jon, she’s more Cersei than anything else.
Jon is the only true Stark in Ned’s image. He didn’t even spill the truth to his sister’s but regulated the decision to Bran. He’s honorable, loyal, selfless, honest, truly caring and compassionate.
The other three lack some of those qualities while having others.
I’m considering the possibility this is the fall of House Stark, especially concerning their distinguishing traits.
Clob,
I def don’t mean I’m basing this on any clues re: the book characters because we don’t know how this will all play out. But I am trying to figure out the “sweet” part of the bittersweet ending to the show, and there are very few possibilities for the major characters to have happy endings.
I’m not part of any ship fandom, this isn’t an opinion I’ve held dear, it’s purely about the events on the show.
Gendry is all the things that that Joffrey, Loras, Petyr, Robin and Ramsay were not, and he is all the things Sansa has come to appreciate. He’s honest, loyal, gentle, brave and unspoiled, and the right age, with no ulterior motives. And now that he’s the Lord of Storm’s End, he’s the perfect match for the Lady of Winterfell. And as Robert’s legitimized son, he actually has a stronger claim than Dany.
I don’t predict happy endings for Jon or Dany, either together or apart. Arya has a different path, eventually leading west. Bran is Bran. Sam and Gilly won’t make up for the “sweet” needed at the end. Jaime and Cersei’s story won’t be sweet. The only possibility will be Sansa/Tyrion and I guess that’s still possible, but it’s still not sweet.
IMO Sansa will rule Gendry’s castle and her sons will be lords and princes, just as Arya predicted. Houses Baratheon and Stark will be joined as predicted in episode 1.
talvikorppi,
I enjoyed your post! I especially appreciate your observation that Missandei died in chains. I did not process that detail before. It is another layer of sadness to her death.
And Tormund telling Sandor about his broken heart being the wrong shoulder to cry on. But I guess it is because of their chat about the Big Woman when they heading out looking for wights last season. Tormund may have felt he would get some sympathy, but not from the Hound!
Wait… You’re not saying that Ned keeping the secret caused Robert’s Rebellion, are you? Because I thought Ned only found out the truth at the Tower of Joy, once the Rebellion was pretty much over. (Mad King dead. Rhaegar dead. Targaryen forced defeated.)
Bran said that he is able to see the past and what is happening right now everywhere. This means that he could have found out and told the others that: 1) She got a lot of upgraded scorpions; 2) Greyjoy fleet is equiped with said scorpions; 3) Greyjoy is planning to ambush Dany near Dragonstone.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
A writer or any other artist cannot compromise his/her vision to please the masses. A writer, especially a fiction writer, usually writes for his/herself, if he/she is able to find an audience for his work then that is just a bonus. GRRM has lived with this world for decades now, he knows his characters probably better than he knows himself, he will be true to the characters and to the story he had sketched in his mind long ago. I doubt he changes anything to meet any type of fan expectations. When he started writing he likely knew the beginning, middle and end of the story, what has taken him time to figure out is how gets from point A to B and from B to C.
Tyjon,
Jon is definitely the most like Ned. He and Arya are also the only children in the books that have the looks and personality traits of the Starks.
Solar,
Actually when Dany was in power and revered she usually was gentler, I have the feeling. Like in S1 when she tried to “save” the lamb people or among the freed slaves. When people opposed her she was not. When she had less power, like S2, or after losses in S5 and S7 she was more like a dragon. Ok, not exactly the best ruling qualities. But I think she improved the lives of many Essosi, though at a cost. At that time, she was also less invested in the IT and more in her subjects.
lucy,
Yep, that scene was absolutely nothing like their previous scenes, the knighting scene was more intimate and sexy.
I wonder if it would have been better to get a woman in to write that scene from Brienne’s point of view, it was a big moment that seemed like nothing in the end. I mean did you see Jaime’s face when he knighted her? He was transfixed, it just wasn’t the same here, it felt like a naff teen drama.
Also f*ck Jaime for leaving like that, I hated it.
Sersis,
He could have but no one asked him. Also, not sure that it is good to assume that Bran would volunteer that information on his own. The former TER, Brynden Rivers, was in many ways a puppet master. He knew that Jamie would push 11 year old Bran off a tower and let it happen because Bran had a destiny to fulfill. He knew that Jon would get stabbed to death by his brothers and let it happen because he had a destiny to fulfill. Maybe the current TER knows what will happen to Dany and will let it happen because that is the way things are suppose to go. Can we ever escape the Gods of destiny?
Sundancer,
One would think she would need to be at least a month+ pregnant to announce it to Euron. Just as one would think she needs to be a month+ to have announced it to Jaime, and then to Tyrion.
I don’t think she’s pregnant at all.
the unburdened,
I read quite some time ago that from a legal point of view season 7 and season 8 are indeed a dragged out single season split in half cause the main actors had contracts binding them for another season. Two full blown seasons would have involved a lot of laywers and agents renegotiating contracts. But please take this with a grain of salt cause i remember this vividly, yet i have no idea where i read it.
Dear oh dear, I get it, we all get it, you’re displeased with the show, you are so displeased that you can’t even acknowledge any of the positive aspects to the show, you speak of blinded fans, but you fail to see how blinded you are to anything positive from the show. And that’s fine, that’s your prerogative, however I do wonder what whining constantly week in week out to a bunch of people who neither know more care who you are will achieve……..there is constructive criticism which is healthy for the show, and then there is just pure bashing of anything produced, compared to any other show, this is still a million miles ahead of anything out there on tv, past or present.
Jon and Danny die. Tyrion, who will be revealed as the Bastard Targaryen remarries Sansa. [ the big twist ending ]. How many times did his father say ” your no son of mine” Remember the dragons didn’t eat Tyrion when he unchained them. He is the mad Kings son. Cercie, Jamie, The Hound, The Mountain, Grey Worm, and Dragon all die. Do you really think Sansa’s role is over? Sansa will be Queen.
Che,
In fact, Jon wouldn’t make that great of a ruler, ether. He is kind and concientious, but unconcientious will always be trying to use that for their benefit. Look at Lord Glover (I hope he has been recruted by the Night King and got a demise along with his army), look even at Sansa who swore to keep the secret just to break it. I mean, how long can a concientious and honorable man work with such people without going crazy? A year? A decade? And as soon as he’ll start making mistakes (which would be inevitable), all those people will start sheming against him, etc. Paranoia can be called a professional sickness of the rulers and for good reason. And Jon has a messiah complex as much as Dany does. The point is that rulers need trust and encouragement as normal people and often even more.
Hey, that’s right! I thought Bran was supposed to be able to see what was happening all over the world. So why no reconnaissance report to Team Dany?
Bran “saw” AotD marching to Eastwatch and sent a ravengram warning to Jon c/o Dragonstone. He “saw” that NK had breached the Wall and had a dragon, and warned Jon as soon as he & Dany arrived in WF.
Yet, no surveillance reports about KL’s defenses?
I guess I don’t understand Bran’s/3ER’s importance in the grand scheme of things.
Jon Snowed,
I like what you said about Dany’s Chance to “change her path” being through motherhood/pregnancy with Jon.
I think this could play out with a very entertaining juxtaposition against Cersei’s ( still technically unconfirmed?) pregnancy.
I also find it interesting that neither Dany -nor anyone else on show- has addressed the idea/curse/medical reality (?) that she Lost the ability to bear children
(back in Season 1/book 1 While Khal Drogo was dying of wounds/poison, & the healer cursed Dany/caused her to miscarry Drogo’s baby because she & her village had been ravaged by the Dothraki)
All this time, has Dany just been planning to live forever and rule The 7 Kingdoms? She hasn’t talked about an heir, I guess there’s been talk of a child from her & Jon for the last 2 seasons, which could he heir as child of the Queen (and…the Queen’s Consort?)
But really, she calls the dragon
sher sons, so I am pretty unsure how a monarchy based with Dany as Queen will be stable – no heir – which sounds like another War of theRosesFive Kings:/
WhiteSparkle,
Same. I am right there with you. Show Only Husband too. So disappointed in it all.
And some people said that after killing the NK “too soon”, the last episodes were going to be weak… LOL 😀
This episode gave me almost the same tension as the previous one, just in a different way… Very well done!
This show might not be perfect (anymore), cause GRRM is one of a kind, you can’t beat him or even equal him at the Game of Throne… But this season is surely giving me a lot of emotions and thrill! 🙂
Keyword “TV”, it is now a TV show. Mass media and a bit silly at times. Since they lost the blueprint in season 5 they have been struggling with major plot holes. I agree it is good TV but it is no longer epic.
So what is up with the camera so deliberately marking a look of startlement and apprehension on Bran’s face when an assistant approaches from behind to push his chair at the end of his conversation with Tyrion?
Apollo,
Agreed. This (the following video) has always been my idea of what Arya would look for in a husband. imo she is not going to want to have any more than one kid. More than one kid would take too much out of her body and would restrict her being nimble etc. And, she’s not interested in a romantic marrage, if she has a desire for a bit of romance, she would probably prefer to get that along the road somewhere. So, what she would really value in a husband is a man that would hold down and look after the base of operations, somewhere to go and get a few stitches or fix a broken bone when she needs it. A husband that wont ask too many questions, and wont fuss over her too much, want to follow her and make sure that she is safe etc. And, one she can rely on to look after the brat while she’s not there. And cook great meals for her, because she likes her food. That is my idea of what Arya would look for in her man. And look at this vid, if they don’t look already married, I don’t know what does, I mean he is already wearing the apron. He looks like he would be a good even tempered father. So, she can go off and kill all the people that she needs to kill, and when she needs to she can come home for a few weeks rest. This to me is the kind of thing Arya would value. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV8rAIGayNA
We are all looking for answers that we already know. We don’t like the answers, but it is obvious. They don’t foresee Euron attacking at Dragonstone because the plot dictates it. Every logical scenario results in less drama. So our “heroes” make obvious mistakes so that the odds are stacked against them to create more drama.
Yes, illogical writing is poor writing, but it’s been this way since season 5, if not sooner. Bran should make it nearly impossible for the good guys to be defeated. He should be able to see every scenario and communicate them to everyone. But then there is not as much drama. Bran should have either stayed stuck in that tree or died.
Jon Snowed,
Florida? You should find Ten Bears and watch it at his place! 😂
Tyrion is the star of the show. He will be the one standing at the end. Watch the credits. Dinklage is first. The story has always revolved around him.
The Red Wedding comparison is spot on. The biggest driver for criticism from what I’ve seen is not bad writing, acting or plot but fans expectations not being met. After all these years we’ve all got ideas of how we feel the story should end and most of us will be wrong. Last week the two biggest criticism were not enough people died and Arya killed the night king rather than Jon, this week it’s because Dany is being portrayed badly so the show runners are anti-feminists, they killed Missandei because they are racist, throughout multiple people claim they are butchering the GRRM story (clearly they’ve all read the unpublished books unlike the two people who have been told in detail how it all ends).
Sadly the final two episodes will likely only be more divisive as people’s hopes are dashed.
Tryptych,
Please, oh please! No more Arya face-peeling tricks! That “gun” has been fired three times already. (Meryn F*cking Trant; Walder Frey; and the rest of the Frey doofuses).
I’ve read lots of speculation that Arya will “steal” Jaime’s face and kill Cersei. If that happens….
Brick meet TV.
You’re correct. How many times has Danny even spoken to Bran? NEVER. The all seeing all knowing Bran, who can see everything that is happening all over the world.
One can only blame the man who has failed to deliver on the source material, who has himself said the winds of winter should have been finished four years ago, you can’t expect tv show writers to even come close to comparing to a world class author, this dip in writing quality was predicted before s5 aired, plus, Martin did decide to leave the writing team for the show in order to complete his novel before the show finished, so in doing so, not only contributed at least in a small capacity to the degradation of the shows writing quality, but has also failed his singular objective of finishing the books before the show finished, he has only himself to blame atleast partially for how the show has dipped in writing quality, yet it’s still not nearly as bad as those in IMDb would have you believe, with their 1 star ratings, I’ve seen poor tv, in the form of the walking dead, and even that doesn’t get as many 1 stars as the most recent GOT episodes have received.
Yes the Dany/Jon pregnancy is certainly looking like misdirection at this point but I still feel it could come up next episode as the one way to pull Dany back from the brink of mass slaughter in pursuit of power and vengeance. If so, we won’t see any baby born without a time jump in the finale.
In the books, GRRM has made it quite clear that while Arya has Ned’s looks and Sansa has Cat’s, Sansa takes on more of Ned’s quiet, reserved and calm personality while Arya takes on Cat’s fierce, very protective and impulsive nature.
It’s not the best season ever but it’s far from the worst in my view, certainly ahead of seasons five, seven and two.
As a fan of Dany, it’s very hard to keep liking her. I see exactly what Emilia was saying about her characterization this season. How can people keep saying she loves Jon? Honestly, if the question was asked, would Dany kill Jon for the throne? I honestly think she would do it. Now I don’t believe there’s any chance that Jon would kill Dany for the throne. She is becoming a straight up tyrant. She seems purely power hungry. I don’t blame her rage and isolation because of the key losses she’s suffered but damn her entitlement is grating as fuck now. But she is not alone on my dislike list.
Tyrion has become a complete clown. Why is he still alive? So Dany is gonna go Mad Queen and still has this “loser” on her team. And I do say loser because all she’s done is lose since having Tyrion as her Hand. It’s pissing me off that Tyrion keeps getting pass after pass when he’s shown to be the worst Hand the show has produced. From the losses of Dorne, the Reach, Greyjoy fleet, Wight Hunt, etc, he’s done more harm to Team Dany than Cersei could have done on her own.
And now we’re to believe that Cersei will kill Missandei right in front of Dany but not kill Tyrion with her archers? The murder of Missandei could have caused an instant clash. So again, why is Tyrion still alive? D&D gotta do better. Same with the stupid shit of Sansa being some big political mover and shaker. If they are truly gonna let Sansa sit safely in Winterfell while everyone else dies and then they place Sansa & Tyrion or Sansa and Gendry on the Throne I’ll be so disappointed. It will basically be taking 8 years of story and flushing it down the toilet because D&D have done a shitty job of showing Sansa and Tyrion being worthy of anything besides death or a fading into obscurity.
Last few things, was Jon abandoning Ghost strictly for budget cuts or were they saying Jon is abandoning his Stark side and becoming full on Targaryen? Odd because Rhaegal just died. Is Euron so stupid to really believe that’s his baby? The goodbye at Winterfell seemed like a real “goodbye”. Are Tormund, Sam, & Gilly done in the story? Will Cersei send a team to ransack WInterfell and kidnap Sansa? They did say they took all the armies South and the Wildlings are leaving.
All in all I’m shocked at where D&D are taking things. I know people feel Dany going mad has been foreshadowed but man is it hard to watch her lose everything while characters like Sansa & Tyrion get lifted up for not doing shit. I’ve reached the point that all I want now are for Sansa & Tyrion to die. Whatever else happens and whoever rules I don’t care. Be it Cersei, Euron, Greyworm or even Qyburn, anybody but those 2. Because if Dany does go mad, those should be the first 2 on her hit list.
BeardedOnion,
Not really, Arya takes after Lyanna, doesn’t she? In looks and in personality. Arya is a she-wolf, Cat is a trout.
Tycho Nestoris,
Well, Tyrion tried to speak with Bran several times and probably he saugth information or at least tried to understand how his powers worked. But I assume, Bran didn’t open.
What is dead,
Anecdote follows:
Stanley Kubrick, when filming the (in)famous elevator bloodflood scene in The Shining, was his usual perfectionist persnickity self in spending days and weeks with his crew in getting the blood to look ‘real’. After devoting many full workdays experimenting with all kinds of materials and lighting (this was all in-camera mind you), he was finally satisfied that they had gotten the ‘real’ that he was looking for. The crew, elated that they had finally gotten it right was ready to throw a party when, after some beard tugging, Kubrick said “OK, it’s real – but is it interesting?”
D&D in their struggles to get the ‘real’ of it and all too often failing at that in s.7-8 WRT the narrative lines and structures, have lost a lot of the bubble on being interesting as well. The simple fact of bringing the whole thing to a conclusion (of sorts), is the most interesting facet of the last three episodes. Worth watching? Sure. As engaging as it it could or should be? For me – no. At this point, I’m just looking forward to seeing Drogon going apeshit on KL. That, and getting a Jon/Ghost reunion.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Make no mistake, i enjoyed yesterdays episode but that Euron guy… is clearly on winning streak:
Taking the Iron Island – check
Building the Iron fleet – check
Ambushing Daenys fleet one time – check
Taking the Dorne family and Yara alive in a chaotic battle – check
Ambushing Daenys fleet two times (Casterly Rock) – check
Participate in the Dragonpit Meeting – check
Transporting the golden company from Essos – check
Winning the queen over – check
Ambushing Daenys fleet three times – check
Killing a dragon without been noticed in advance – check
All basically within not even two (short) seasons. Its hard to enjoy that kind of evil deus ex machina without charakter in a show that has Arya seven long season just to find her way back to Winterfell.
What is dead,
Maybe, but the Dragons never hurt Missandei either. And who will suport Tyrion? Varys, Jaime, Bronn, Podrick? Who will deliver the intel that it’s in fact Tyrion Hill? Bran. Who else cares about the former Demon monkey now called Hill? No one. Jon can be supported not only because of his name and a scroll but because the troops believe in him, and the advisors/lords know he will listen and have the general interest in mind (he also learned from his stabbing, which actually followed Aemon’s advice “you command”. Targs are not great listeners it seems…)
I always took Tywin’s words as the reverse of his “all Dwarfs are bastards” or like the old Genesis song, more proverbial. GRRM a la Dostoyevski, if you will. I heard in the books his aunt claims otherwise.
I hope it will be left to the imagination of the reader/viewer because I prefer another twist.
Book Cat is extremely fiery, there’s a lot of parrals between her and Arya in terms of dialogues. She indeed does take on much of Lyanna, but also her mother. Both would do anything to protect their family, both crave the destruction of anyone who hurts their family and both can be impulsive in decision making.
I feel like it’s typical GRRM, at face value, it seems like Cat and Arya are nothing alike but peel away the layers and you see they are the most alike out of anyone else in the family.
Exactly all the set-up for Dany to totally lose it is there and built up over several seasons so that it’s organic. I’m not sure if her fans just fail to recognise this or simply don’t want to face those facts. I’m not saying that to bait anyone either but this is a theory I’ve believe in since S4 and a lot of others follow it too.
I don’t know anymore. Maybe we will get the nuclear blast that GRRM mumbled about some years ago, with Arya/Nymeria leading the survivors West.
julia,
Clob,
Maybe Gendry, after reflection will realize being Lord of Stormborn isn’t him either and he’ll be off to adventure with Arya.
The Many-Faced Goddess,
Yes, I got a similar wibe, only in my head cannon Jaime went to KL to give Cersei a mercy kill after Sansa mentioned potential execution.
Dyanna,
I think Tyrion will betray Vary’s treason to Daeny, Daeny will roast varys and because it is done with fire, that will be regarded by Rhllor as a sacrifice to him, and the scales will tip back towards daeny again.
You’re correct. How many times has Danny even spoken to Bran? NEVER. The all seeing all knowing Bran, who can see everything that is happening all over the world.
Martin may be dictating the end of the story but he is not writing how they get there. The TV writers are coming up with one dramatic scene after another for simply ‘oh wow appeal’ without much thought.
What is dead,
I don’t think Dany really likes Bran, he caused all the trouble between her and Jon. I wouldn’t like to trust or speak to someone like that.
I couldn’t agree more. For the main non-villain characters, it’s been 7+ seasons of loss, death, heartache, and trauma – as you aptly described it, “gut-wrenching, heart-ripping tragedy of the darkest kind.” More than enough pain and torment already.
If that’s the way their stories conclude, then it’s not “b_____s___t” – it’s just nihilistic and depressing. (It’d make me wish I stopped watching at the end of S6e10, when there was still hope of some redemptive conclusions.)
I recall an empty feeling after watching a “hyped” movie that started out with a nightmarish scenario and ended with an even worse conclusion. I’ll put it in spoiler coding if anyone doesn’t want to know what I’m talking about.
. Horrible beginning, horrible events, and a horrible end – that’s not “art.” That’s sadism. That’s not “entertainment.” That’s infliction of sadness.
That was before he was the 3ER. Would that have any bearing on that?
I noticed that too. Bran’s head turned suddenly, so unlike the 3ER’s quiet and still demeanor. I have no clue.
Literally. I like Arya as much as the next person, but I don’t want it to become the Arya Stark show with her doing everything significant. Let the others like Jon, Jaime, Tyrion or whoever also get closure with the people who’ve hurt them.
I’m not sure what purpose Arya will be serving in KL at this point, but I suppose we still need someone to take down Euron & Qyburn.
What is dead,
I was talking about Martin’s novels not the TV show. My point was that Martin is going to write whatever he wants to write not what Elio and his buddies on Westeros.org want him to write. And it is his right to write the story that he wants to write even if it displeases a large number of the fan base.
the unburdened,
Treason has been mention twice – Jon/Sam and Tyrion/Varys – so I agree it will come into play.
Hello fellow watchers( on the wall), before I said what I found of this episode (little hint it was amazing), I have to correct my opinion about episode 3, last week I was little dissapointed, and today I watched it again (to prepare for episode 4), and I have to say I was more impressed by the episode, acting, visually and music was a 10, nothing less. And the writing was lower but not as low as I would think.
For me writing will be around 50% of how I would rate an episode, because the rest is only a bonus.
what I did was watching the episodes and I wrote down the scenes I though was not worth of a 10, and gave them a number and look at how heavy I found that it was lower. I though most of the episode 3 was worth a 10, and 5 scenes were that that I would put down below.
1. Lyanna killed a giant wight through the eye, which I though was a little bit too fan service for the show, I would have liked it better if she was just slashing his jaw or something, even that would have killed it and felled less precise and more GoT 9,5 for that scene
2. Jon and Dany flying high above the clouds, damn that scene was so impressive that a 10 is too low, that was just the most beautiful scene of the episode. 10,5 (yes I dare give a scene higher than 10 if I just want to watched that small piece over and over again)
So that just even each other out.
3. Arya and the libary scene, for me it was excited and I know why they put it in, but it felled to much like a walking dead episode. But still amazing 9,0
4. Arya gave Sansa a knife, that should have become important in the crypt scene, which would have upped that scene to the rest of the episode if she just killed a wight that was going after Tyrion. 9,0
5. Wow that Mel dead scene deserved at least an 10,5
If I look at how heavy I would have rated those “lack of a 10” for those scenes, writing is at least a 9,0 for me. Meaning that the episode rated higher than 9,5 for me. I would have rectofied that.
Episode 1 at least a 8,8
Episode 2 at least a 9,7 for me
And episode 4 my favorite of the season a 9,8 for me. Later on why
Only couple of questions of episode 3 that I want to be answered:
– Jorah lived when the dothraki were killed, was that due to him having armor, or more that he didn’t got that fire from Mel, the ones surviving weren’t dothraki and didn’t have that fire.
– Is that knife that Sansa has come into play again?
– Not a question, but I understand now why the NK was so slow when killing Bran (1 it was slowed down and 2), he is ice, ice isn’t that fast (chemistry). He is strong but not fast.
– What is given by the writer of this recap. I felled that episode 3 and 4 should have been 3 episodes.
Episode 3 ending with a sense of the NK winning in winterfell. Meaning it should have end between 56 minutes or 62 minutes. Dracarys not working, raising the dead or the montage of the WW entering winterfell
Episode 4 could have had the defeat of the WW having 2 minutes more in the crypts, and maybe some fights with Jorah Dany Jon fighting WW captains. And second part the transition of episode 3 and 4 what we got with maybe a scene that Jon got to Arya and saw her with a dagger in ice water. and the episode could have ended with the feast and telling the starks siblings the truth.
And episode 5 the remaining part of this episode. (plus maybe some scenes with Arya moving south, Sansa in WF etc)
Episode 4 in another post.
Lady High Heart,
Tristan is dead.
Agreed!
Sansa is not concerned about anyone but herself and power …. when she was looking at Daenerys dragons she asked tyrion “why her?” She is envious of Daenerys power … even at the feast when tormund said a toast to Dany did u notice the look Sansa had? There’s nothing good about Sansa she long betrayed the Starks and she has no honorable bone in her body Ramsey should have tortured her to death … i never liked her from S1 – S6 and don’t forget should Arya have not been so fond of Jon she would have long usurped him … Daenerys should have stayed true to her cause and let these Northen scum get killed by the NK
I keep seeing references to Dany as the Mad Queen. But I haven’t seen any evidence she’s crazy, like her dad.
Yes she can be ruthless, doesn’t always make compassionate decisions, and is obsessed with the throne. But she’s not a crazy Aerys or a psychopathic Ramsey or an unhinged Euron.
Her brand of ruthlessness isn’t any more crazy than Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton or Oleanna Tyrell.
And as far as her ruthlessness goes, she has tempered her impulses with the advice of her advisors. And for the most part, that advice has sucked (I’m not sure why D&D have turned Tyrion and Varys into one-dimensional idiots).
Most GOT characters are neither all-good or all-bad. This is what makes them such good characters. I for one appreciate the fact that Dany isn’t some kind of divine angel sent to rescue the Seven Kingdoms, but a complex and human character with ambition, purpose, and yes, a temper.
Azor Asshai,
Bronn wasn’t particularly friendly when he barged in to Winterfell, punched Tyrion in the face, and fired an arrow into the wooden beam right near Jaime’s head. So I don’t think this was anything but a “fair warning” type of meeting, which by Bronn’s standards might be considered “friendly.” But really it was a negotiation. I believe Jaime and Tyrion’s lives are still very much in danger. The only reason for Bronn not to kill them would be to smartly realize that if he did, Cersei would kill him, even though she may have ordered her brothers’ deaths. (there’s an outside chance Euron or Qyburn did it on their own and Cersei doesn’t know. But I doubt it.)
That’s right. Lots of Lyanna comparisons with Arya.
Cameryn,
Yes, if Jon’s & Dany’s love fails to triumph at the end angainst all differences and scheeming and mistrust, this story will be a total waste of time and nobody will be interested in prequel shows or even books. Sure, there will be crazy nerds, but most of the fandom will switch towards something more positive. Doom and gloom is good, but we must get dawn, too. And Dany going crazy, Jon going to the real north to freeze alone and all that jazz is not dawn. Real world history can be much more inspirational (I’m really planning to check Chernobyl series tomorrow; still remember those events, and it will be interesting to see that on screen in a form of high quality television). Anyway, we still have 2 episodes left and I strongly believe that we’ll see the sunrise. Tyrion’s attitude gave me hopes: contrary to Varys, he’s not leaving Dany in her dark place – he’ll fight for her and so will Jon; Jon won’t let her fall.
So agree! She could affect the system so much more by joining it and making changes as the Lady of Storms End who expands the definition of what a Lady can be! Plus she needs family- she can’t be alone her entire life.
The Item I read is in this forum. maybe about 10 or so articles back. I might even look for it tomorrow. cheers!
Things I walked away from S8E4 with:
-Cersei is capable of many things, but killing an immediate family member is not one of them; it’s her only obvious and consistent weakness, and no one (as yet) seems interested in exploiting this.
-Dragons might seem big, scary and dangerous, but really they are pretty easy to get rid of.
-Stop trying to make sense out of the show based on information more explicitly covered in the books; this information is only occasionally useful.
-Accept that this is a show just trying to finish itself and don’t get too bent about obvious character and plot inconsistencies; the point here is to finish this.
-Sansa still is very much the silly little bird of earlier seasons; the idea that she can push Jon into something he has explicitly stated he has no interest in, something that would require him to break one of his beloved oaths to his chosen queen, just because she knows, just knows, he’d make the bestest and most perfectest ruler for ever and ever and ever is an idea born of a child’s mind.
I am truly going to let go of any thoughts about how this will end so that I can just sit back and enjoy what actually does happen. Even if it means Cersei is our victor!! 🙂
lucy,
I have to say I agree about that Bronn scene- it was terrible. And we’re meant to believe he rode 2000 miles North in the depths of winter just to give the Lannister brothers a verbal ass whooping and then simply skulk back off down south?
What an episode was this, it started with the emotion of the dead. I cried for Dany, I cried for Sansa. Both has lost someone they rely on very much and who fought for them. It was something that could reconcile the two, but both of them didn’t feel to talk to each other about that. Even when I’m more a Sansa fan, I have to give Dany the “more right” in this case, even she acknowledge the horrors Sansa went true, meaning Dany understands Sansa why she does what Sansa does.
Up to the funny part entwined with a very sad part. Thormund remains the most funny man out there, and him drunk is even funnier. Him being sad for losing Brienne and blaming Jaime, priceless.
But the scene was underlined with the sadness of Dany. I feel for her, no matter what she try she can’t get love here. People ignore her even when she praised Arya and gave away the glory to her. I think this is the one thing that drives her to power.
I still don’t understand Dany when she asked Jon for keeping it quiet. If she and Jon both give that information free, and let Jon keep the crown in name, even they could decide that Dany is the true power that decided everything, Jon don’t care for leading. That way they could have controlled the horror that is about to start later on the episode.
Brienne Jaime together, finally. I can understand Jaime leaving at the end. But I don’t think he is going to Cersei to reconcile, he is going there to end the poison that Cersei is, freeing himself off it. In which Brienne feared for his live (as am I, as am I). And it made clear, people like Bran and Brienne has forgiven Jaime, but he can’t forgive himself for what he have done.
Jon why did you tell, why did you tell, or maybe was this the right way, I really can’t decide. I don’t want to lose Dany, but she is going into dangerous territory. This makes the question that Stannis asked Davos into more perspective, only the word of bastard is replaced by queen and the realm by 10.000 people. What is 1 queen against 10.000 of innocent commoners?
And Bronn you keep on surprising me. I expected him to kill him and hate him for it, but somehow I liked what he did here.
And Jon, you were to vile one in this episode, not Cercei. Cercei maybe killed some, but you didn’t pet your direwolf goodbye, bad Jon bad Jon, below on my list of likable characters. (Just kidding but I felled Jon made a mistake here, I just like dogs very much)
Back to the south. Those dead’s came as a huge surprise for me, I knew Cersei was up to something but I didn’t expect it to have that in this episode and in this way, I cried for Missandei. Dracarys.
As for the dilemma of putting Jon on the throne, I think even Tyrion wants that, he wants Jon. But Tyrion don’t want to be part of the consequences of that, he though it would be to just send away Dany back to Essos. But Varys made it very clear, that will never happen and that’s not in Dany’s nature. Meaning one thing, she has to die.
I’m very excited for next week, I’m excited what will happen to Cersei and I dread what will happen to Dany.
My short thoughts and questions:
– I don’t think Varys meant to kill Dany herself. I think he will orchestrate something that will get her killed, but he will never put himself in danger. It’s possible that Dany will survive such attempt and he will die because Dany find out the truth. but I think and fear that Jon will be the one to end Dany’s live.
– Brienne and Jaime is a good match, finaly they’re together. Kill Cersei and come back to her.
– Thormund you found your woman.
– Ghost don’t leave.
– Sansa has become the product of Cersei and LF. Maybe not as vile, but I need to wait till the show is over if I put that action in, right or wrong. Because even if she didn’t Dany will burn those in KL
– Does Bran want Dany dead?
– Does the words of Thormund that Jon needs to go north, the true north meaning he will not end as king but he will end in the north?
Dany’s tragic comes closer at play, I’m wondering how this will play out. And I have to say, I didn’t really liked Dany in season 5 till 7. But now she is one of my favorite (fleshed out) character of the show. This season shows all sides of Dany that makes who she is. A very complex character that is well written.
9,8 for this episode.
WhiteSparkle,
I’m with you. As a longtime Super Fan of both the books and the show, I’m having a difficult time determining whether these final Game of Thrones episodes really are legitimately coming off as underwhelming or if my expectations were just misguided. I know they can’t make everyone happy and we will all, never get the ending each of us may have envisioned, but I can’t help but feel as though things are happening haphazardly in these final hours and are not translating well on screen.
I was highly critical of how the Night King met his easy demise in the previous episode, after much buildup of the White Walker threat from the Pilot Episode on, it was a lackluster and embarrassing ending to what was to be a world ending threat.
Last night’s episode fumbled on the Jaime/Brienne consummation that had been building up since S3 and what, if any, was the reason behind the whole Gendry/Arya drama?
The setup for Dany to become a “Mad Queen” is all happening too easily…
Unless she had somehow managed to find more dragons…I can’t imagine what Euron would be so shocked to see break through the clouds in the next episode. Drogon in Armor?
Much of everything seems rushed and I think the show would have benefited from doing full 10 episode seasons rather than truncating everything. There is/was enough story to do so regardless of the show surpassing the books.
Maybe the point the showrunners are trying to make is that no matter what type of threats there may be (Army of the Dead, Dragons, Dothraki Armies, Unsullied Armies, etc) the biggest threat can still be one person with enough evil in them to pull it off. With two episodes left, I find myself disliking this season the most
ThisGirlHasNoName,
Agreed!
You’re a dragon, be a dragon.
-OT (RIP)
Oh no, I was a bit sloppy there with my timeline. You are right. I was thinking too much about the contrast in how the two handled secrets, the impacts, etc. but used the wrong details to illustrate it. Thanks for the catch!
Ten Bears,
I don’t think Arya expects to survive her last mission, her tone this whole episode had a finality in it, she hasn’t recovered from the horrors she went through and that sort of life with Gendry doesn’t suit her.
Interesting stuff.
I’m kinda beginning to understand why some characters “survived” last episode, eg the emotional hit of Missandei dying and the added emotional weight of seeing Rhaegal shot down instead of having died last week and then have Dany’s Fleet ambushed
Of course if only they had a person close to hand who can warg Ravens amongst other things to scout the lay of the land ahead…
One thing I don’t quite get is Ghost, at this point if they are/were barely going to use him it may have made sense to have the whole “only death pays for life thing” and have Ghost sacrifice necassary for Jons resurrection. With Rhaegal dead it helps then for Jon to have a Direwolf by his side?
Perhaps this us supposed to be symbolic of Jon leaving his Stark aspect behind?
Alternatively if he does decide to do the Ranger thing (equivalent of Dany’s Red Door) then it makes sense he would meet up with Ghost when it’s all said and done
Of course Cersei is manipulating Dany, All Dany has to do is let Gendry consolidate the Stormlands, give a namedrop to the Yronwoods as the new rulers of Dorne and besiege the City as planned – the whole 7 Kingdoms is effectively hers bar the capital. Cersei has already let the mob into the Red Keep, many will be unhappy with the burning of the Sept still and of course at this point all Dany has to do is keep the threat of Drogon in reserve in the back of peoples minds but never reveal him
Of course don’t forget the Golden Company – or rather who really owns their contract. If Dany controlled the entire 7 Kingdoms then there is no way for the Iron Throne to be able to pay the debt to the Iron Bank….
Burning the Red Keep and the Iron Throne forged of Aegons enemies is a mistake on another level, eg it undoes Aegons legacy sp let’shope she keeps her cool
If they had sent the terms via Raven and not had the meetup, then they could have had Varys of the Deep Dungeons and Red Keep tunnels along with Ser Davos the Smuggler free her and smuggle her out but anyway…
Would guess Arya is going to kill the Queen, the Hound will save her by killing Mountain Gregor with Berics sword?
Nobody is saying she is a Mad Queen (at least not the comments that I read). But she has some impulsive reactions, since the first season (And for good reason)
And no she is not her father, but as all kids, we all have parts of our parents. Even Dany. She may not be her father but she’s not free of what he was. She can control herself much much much longer, but even her loses it at some point, hell even Jon loses his control. difference is, Jon hurts himself, Dany unleashed it onto the world.
Yes you’re on point with Ramsay and Euron, but they are very calculated. Meaning you know where you stand when you meet them. With Dany it’s like flipping a coin sometimes, you can see it in Varys eyes when telling Dany the truth, this could be my end.
Yes her ruthlessness is more crazy than that of Tywin, Olenna or Roose bolton. With those you know where you stand, they calculate everything. They don’t seek revenge as in “ease your pain”. With Tywin it was his house name, you know beforehand if you cross his house you will perish. It’s evil but not crazy. Same with Roose and Olenna. They make that decision when they’re at ease and could make those decisions with calm minds. Dany reacts at the moment in full emotion mode.
But that makes her such an amazing character, and that’s why I can connect with her. I don’t want Dany to be the Mary sue hero that other shows give us, I rather have this one which I can connect with.
As for listening to advisers, the only advisers she listened to the last 2 seasons were the 2 that died the last 2 episodes. As Varys stated, when did she ever listened to Tyrion lately. And I understand why you said D&D made Tyrion and Varys one dimension. They are far from it. They are figuring out the most complex situation they ever been part of. Keep following Dany or break her for the realm.
Adam,
Sounds about right to me.
Brian,
Tbf as Ser Barristan as Aristan said it’s about the gods flipping a coin, so we are always left to wonder which side Dany will fall until the very last. We see Dany being kind on one hand but then on the other crucifying Masters of Meereen etc
I do reckon Jons/Aegons arrival will help calm her down and it brings into focus the issues everyone else has with Cersei and the Lannisters (the ending scene/s were deliberately abouy Dany inner circle)
The Drogon charge seems daft now, but IMO Eurons look is in reference to Dan flying in the distance, presenting the KL mob the point she had the opportunity to use Drogon but she’ll hold off and fly away hence Eurons look?
Enter Arya to fail to kill Cersei, to get killed by the undead Mountain (another face of death), Hound to kill Ser MOuntain-Gregor and Ser Jaimie to strangle Cersei with the Golden hand
Agree,
If we had had 10 seasons we could have more properly fleshed out Sansa Vale/RL arc as that is where she takes power IMO plus Arya would be a more convincing fully fledged assassin capable of believably shanking the Night King. Plus Dorne would make a bit more sense…
Don’t think they could do 10 seasons in final seasons though, the longer episodes are probably a way of working around the main casts now exorbitant salaries (notice Lena Headey is likely only in 5 episodes) plus the budgetary and timing issues with large scale battles and VFX
Roz’s Ghost,
Did Bronn say at the end “come and find me when the war is over”? Seemed to me that he’s just hedging his bets. All he wants is a castle and he’ll wrangle it from the winner.
I hope Arya doesn’t kill Cersei.
I’m kinda hoping the Hound gets mortally wounded killing the Mountain and for Arya to finally let go of all her hate and misery, finally mercy killing the Hound thus granting him his peace and walking away from Cersei. I want the Starks to be together at the end and happy. Likewise for Sansa, I hope she just tells Cersei to fuck off and for her to move on, focusing on her family and people.
Inga,
There is a sizeable chunk of the fandom that believes GRRM did not set out to write an incest love story.
Inga,
I think you’re wrong there. if their love don’t triumph maybe you won’t watch with a small percentage of fans, the big portion will watch the prequel if it’s any good.
Nick,
As varys stated, what Jon wants doesn’t matter. He will be forced to take the throne by the people like he was forced to take the throne in the north.
Brian,
That last sentence is exactly what GRRM always said. People are the most dangerous out there.
And I think it was expectation, I was very angry last week about episode 3, though it was the worst of the show, this week I watched again and I have to say, I give it a 9,5 now.
“Nobody” is a big claim. I have never bought into Jon and Dany’s love story, at least on the show. The chemistry didn’t seem that strong. Also I never envisioned Game of Thrones to be a happily-ever-after love story, especially one that ultimately celebrated inter-family marriage.
Inga,
Offscreen this happened? Tyrion never brought up strategy with Bran. Furthermore, if Tyrion did bring it up and Bran did not comply, why didn’t Daenerys go to Jon and ask him? That would be completely in her character.
If there’s some reason that Bran is explicitly plotting against Daenerys, it would be nice to base that twist on some actual facts presented to the audience.
Nick,
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
the unburdened,
I honestly don’t think Arya needs any man. To protect her, cook her food, care for her imagined kid. As she said in season 1, 7 and 8: that’s not me.
Not all book fans, I assure you.
The Mad Queen theory for Dany has been around since book one came out in 1996.
PromiseMeNed,
Same
There is literally like, zero chance that George is going to end the books with Dany and Jon sitting on the Throne, happy and with child. That’s not the story that he’s been writing. And for the people that think that’s the way the series will end, well, frankly I dunno what’s the show they have been watching for 8 years, certainly not the one I’ve watched, that’s for sure!
All incest will die. Cercie and Jamie and Jon and Danny. That leaves two stars remaining. Sansa and Tyrion. This union unites the Lannisters, the Starks and the Targaryens. They win “The Game Of Thrones”
kevin1989,
kevin1989,
That’s good. where does it now fall in your ranking ?
there are some stuff that I would have liked, but I have make my peace with it.
I believe once we see the series finale, our opinions may change.
After seeing The Long Night I am not interested in seeing another battle, don’t see how anyone can top that. I’m curious to see how Danny story plays out, what happens after the battle.
Now I’ve had more time to reflect on the episode, and reading how split the fandom is over Dany’s arc (which, BTW some of it sounds like petulant, over entitled tosh), I’m wondering if we are being blindsided.
In once sense, whilst Dany’s flirtations with possible madness have been subtly hinted at in the show, I don’t believe it’s obvious enough for the vast majority of viewers to be able to make sense of it if she were to turn mad at the every last minute.
At the same time, let’s consider what’s she’s just lost: two of her dragons, her army, her closest friends, her birthright (connected to faith in herself), possibly her lover, the respect and adulation of her people. Everything and everyone she holds dear. She is broken- is madness really such a stretch?
That said- she’s been here before. She lost everything in season 1. She came back stronger. In season 6 she was held captive and enslaved. We presumed she’d be saved by Drogon or Jorah. She saved herself.
Time and time again she has taken people by surprise, prevailed and freed thousands.. in seasons 1, 3, 4 and 6.
Let’s not write her off just yet.
Finally, Emilias comments about her being bummed at Dany’s endgame are all just part of the plot by HBO to have fans howling with fury and generating a tsunami on social media. And it’s working a treat by all accounts.
We still have two more episodes. Chill..
talvikorppi,
No, not stupidly long just inclusive. I agree with what you said.
I love the episode even though it hurt my heart for so many reasons. Dany has lost so much but she still needs to listen or she will devolve quickly into Cersei, who seriously needs to die yesterday. Sansa should not have told Tyrion anything. Jon loves his siblings so they deserved to know but no one else. As a shipper, I was disappointed that Arya turned Gendry down but I won’t give up. Poor Brienne and Grey Worm. Their dreams shattered. I saw Jon as being too emotional to physically bid farewell to his dear Ghost. He may just have saved his life by giving him to Tormund and the North to heal and be free.
I look forward to the next episode with much trepidation but also much sadness as the series draws to its conclusion.
People rating stuff online is one of the worst things ever invented…
I just checked the latest 25 reviews on IMDB for curiosity… They’re all bad or very bad. Most of them (the ones who gave the worst ratings/reviews) just happen to have rated only this last episode, or the last two, or this season’s episodes only… Isn’t this curious? 😀
Give people the opportunity to rate something online and sooner or later you’ll have a horde of trolls ruining it.
All incest will die. Cercie and Jamie and Jon and Danny. That leaves two stars remaining. Sansa and Tyrion. This union unites the Lannisters, the Starks and the Targaryens. They win “The Game Of Thrones”
I agree. I invested a lot of time in the books and was excited to see the HBO version. Through season 5 the story was close. I saw the divergence come from HBO when they did not follow the story of the young Targaryen, the invasion of Westeros in the south and gave Jorah greyscale. From that point on it was not Martins story. Maybe he could not continue the books and be part of the show since his story had been so drastically altered. He took the money. His story was heading in a very different direction. If the books are ever finished [ which I doubt ] it will be a completely new story.
I watched it again, and I do quite like a lot of the episode now that my rage of losing yet another dragon and one of the strongest and most admirable woman on the show has cooled. I have to say, Emilia’s acting was fantastic. I’ve always been Dany (and Jon) neutral, not a super fan but like her well enough, and she’s just taken so many hits in quick succession. Jacob Anderson was brilliant. Why do I feel as though Tyrion is in a no-win situation? Sansa’s “determination to dislike” Dany has put Dany on even more tenuous ground. I wish Jon/Bran had never told her and Arya. Sandor and Arya make me happy, but I am worried for them.
Honestly, I wish Missandei had shoved Cersei off the roof. Everyone would be dead, but the though of smug Cersei going out like that made me momentarily happy.
Beautiful episode.
The funerals were so emotional..thanks Ramin for the incredible music..so deeply moving.
I liked how Dany starts to get corrupted in her heart with her quest of power…she can’t deal with Jon being praised more than her..and yes it is a bit unfair as she scarified so much..but we have been told over and over that the Northerners are so difficult to deal with, since season 1, I’m not surprised they prefer and recognise Jon.
She will never be able to share the power with Jon in an happy ending….
She is also in love with Jon and she is at her most vulnerable there, emotionally..how she deals with all those emotions is absolutely well done in this episode.
Loved the Tyrion -Varys scene too..and how Dany is justifying the future genocide of KL with her mission to erase tyrants…who is the real tyrant there?
Jeez, Raeghal…i didn’t see that coming..and Missandei death..retaliation is coming. And again, we can understand Dany’s pain there.
I’m sorry, I didn’t read this through to the end, but I’ve been at it an hour and a half and keep reading people demanding to know why Bran doesn’t just take a peek south to see WTF is happening and no one responding to it, so if someone recently did so, props, but…
All the Wierwoods were cut down in the south, so Bran cannot see through them. He can see in the past prior to them being cut down because they are a network–at least that is how I understand it. No? Yes? Irrelevant?
Dany being pissed off at the end seems, I don’t know…wholly appropriate? My interpretation was that she was there in a type of parlay, and those are understood to be occasions in which neither side will fire upon the other while giving ultimatums/demands/terms. Executing a prisoner in your custody does not violate those terms, because you are not attacking the other side, even if it is by proxy. Given Martin’s adoption of other real-world customs and such, I would assume this custom here.
PromiseMeNed,
Thank you for this amazing comment. I totally agree with everything. Daenerys is the true hero of the story, no matter what. It’s very sad because if they had her invade/burn down the Red Keep as soon as she got to Westeros, take power, and then ride north to help save the world – and still go through that Long Night battle where she would lose Jorah and maybe others, it would be the best ending for this season. The series really ended with The Long Night for me. Nothing matters now, Dany has nothing left, no one is happy, so what do we have left to cheer on?
Dany isn’t going mad.
The problem is she’s a Targ. She’s defined her whole life according to the required Targ propaganda that she can’t see the big picture beyond her goal of winning the throne. And in Dany’s case, I have the impression she doesn’t WANT to see the big picture. Her conscious choice to keep barreling ahead will kill more people close to her, and make her look like she lost her mind, when she hasn’t.
This episode was absolutely amazing. I loved the pace, the change in settings and was shocked by the death of Dany’s dragon and Missandei. The whole complexity of the story that we all love is coming across very well – and it seems two episodes away from the end, that I cannot predict how it will be ending. Everything is possible, from Varys orchestrating to kill Dany, Jon dying, Sansa becoming queen, Jamie killing Cercei, Tyrion supporting Sansa. Just so excited and anxious to see how it all turns out in the end.
I really loved how the shift from the Night’s King story line worked by the way. I was slightly disappointed at the end of last episode – for the first time since a very long time during this series – because the victory felt a bit too easy, or I hoped for a final heads-up between Bran and NK. The way the story moved on made me remember the first seasons when Joffrey’s advisors (Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, etc.) talked politics and what Game of Thrones is all about: the struggle for power and what it makes out of those who fight for it.
Episode had no weaknesses for me: 10/10.
(So sad to say good bye to Sam, if this is truly it…)
onedon,
As for battles still last place I think (going to have fun with ranking all episodes this week.maybe I post it here). But every battle is amazing and 9.5+ in got. But who knows it will go above one.
But still a 9.5 for me.
And Im very interesting in the next battle. But I think it will not be a battle like long night but more like hardhome or blackwater. Change between battle and personal stuff.
What is dead,
Grrm stated that the endgame is the same. So I don’t know what you are talking about.
He even stated the main characters storyline are the same. Only the secondary and tertiary characters storylines are different.
So what will be different for you? Or do you think dany and Jon aren’t main characters but secondary?
Agreed. Last season, I was frustrated at Dany’s lack of air reconnaissance and prep, and this year her strategy seems doomed by more nonsense. Who in their right mind would playfully return to Dragonstone (spitting distance from KL) without assuming it was boobytrapped? When GW and Misssandei held hands with Disney glee and Dany played air twister with D & R, I threw up my hands in disgust. She’s really that foolish? Mad Cersei seems to be the only character who actually improved her defense (scorpions on ships and walls) and strategy from S7 to S8. Yay Qyburn, the real advisor!
Dany wants to be like Aegon the Conqueror, but she no longer has the surprise factor or WMDs that he did. Mad delusions or not, she is doomed.
Another disservice on screen was with Brienne. Why the hallmark moment with tears? Screw that. Of course Jaime has to go back to KL! Why couldn’t Brienne the Knight of Seven Kingdoms just look at him and say “Do what you need to do.”
Bronn’s awkward scene with Tyrion and Jaime may be because he had already donated his face. Think about it.
Oh well, I’m still entertained but I now believe the Song of Ice and Fire is about the death of Dany and Jon in their pursuit of a stable Seven Kingdom pipe dream.
Redx,
Agreed, Sansa’s dead to Jon, if he survives and learns she broke her vow, in the Godswood and in front of the freakin Weirwood, Jon will give her two options; death or exile.
Mark my words, the stone dragons are coming.
I don’t expect a happy ending BUT Cercei will die. Jamie, Arya or both will kill her. There is no twist ending that can save her.
OK I liked the episode though I would have preferred if they had invested some more time on key points in the plot like the starks reunion and Jon’s identity reveal. Also a bit more time on why Cercei took the time and effort to do what she did. In my view she wanted to make Dany snap by killing her dragons and Missandei was the cherry on the cake. She wants Dany to snap, and attack KL. She would never surrender she told that to Jaimie. And she doesn’t care if she dies just as long as she ruins any chance of Dany ruling successfully if she can’t be Queen. Getting Dany to act like crazy by pushing her buttons, will make her unpopular to the people and the lords. So that is Cercei’s masterplan:torture Dany by slowly turning her into something she never meant or wanted to be. And Dany seems to fall into that trap.
I was surprised by Jaimie decision to go to KL… It would be like taking 10 steps backwards arc wise. Perhaps he’ll play a role in Cercei’s downfall. Poor Brienne💔
That said there were moments that felt rushed, others that were a bit far fetched – seriously Euron’s aim to Raegar was supernatural, as even the NK had failed! 😁
Jon’s goodbyes were foreshadowing that the may KILL him off soon. Or perhaps not… I’m not sure we’re they are going with his arc.
Tyrion VS Varys was well written and well argued on both sides. I suspected Varys might change loyalties at some point.
Curious to see what happens next.
ygritte,
Sansa has BLUE eyes.
“A touch of fear will not be out of place, Alayne. You’ve seen a fearful thing. Nestor will be moved.” Petyr studied her eyes, as if seeing them for the first time. “You have your mother’s eyes. Honest eyes, and innocent. Blue as a sunlit sea. When you are a little older, many a man will drown in those eyes.”
Sansa did not know what to say to that.
Sean C.,
They’re blue.
Not seeing a FLEET while riding a dragon? Another major plot hole. Almost as bad as The Sand Snakes being on the ship to kill Tristan and escaping out at sea. Hire TV writers and you get a TV show.
Tyjon,
Maybe but that means he will lose Arya and bran also. They are the pack together.
SiriuslyStarkTarg,
You’re comment about cerseis plan for cersei makes a lot of sense. You’re right I think. She even made that whole “come save to the red keep. I’m going to keep you save from the foreign savage”.
She’s putting the people against Dany.
Danny’s armies are decimated and her dragon has been somewhat neutralized. How about a return of “The Second Sons” . The Golden Company cannot be trusted.
I was just looking for some light hearted memes I did not deserve this (cries)
What is dead,
You know that ships can use the “hide” tactic? As a Dutch I know what the Dutch did in the past with fleet tactics. And a place like dragonstone has lots of places where you can hide ships between rocks. (and take the map of westeros there are lot of big rocks between kl en dragonstone.
Just don’t give it attention. Else somebody will read it and spoil it here. I don’t want to know if it leaked or not.
Pardon me if what I say in the following has already been mentioned on this thread. I read these comments for hours last night until I fell asleep sitting up, and now that I check back, they’ve almost doubled, so I haven’t had the time to read the new ones. People were certainly emotionally moved by this episode, it’s what makes this fandom so interesting and informative.
This is the second time Cersei has had the opportunity to kill Tyrion, and she didn’t do it. Curious to me. She did the same with Jaime. She raised her hand as though she was going to kill them, mainly to get the pleasure of scaring them and impressing them with her power, but didn’t kill them. Maybe this means something, maybe nothing. But she obviously feels such a strong bond with her brothers, even Tyrion, she can’t bring herself to kill them. They all have that bond with each other, as strong or stronger, it seems, as the Stark siblings’ bond.
Jaime going back amazes me. She insulted him regarding his intelligence and dedication numerous times before he finally went North. Jaime knows that she even paid Bronn to kill him, yet he rises from Brienne’s nice warm bed, and heads back to her. There’s that Lannister bond again. A lot of people on here and other sites are sure he’s going back specifically to kill her, just as they have been sure of that throughout the series. I never thought he was going to kill her, I still don’t think so. That little speech to Brienne about all the horrid things he did for Cersei was like an awakening for him. He feels he belongs THERE with his hateful twin, not in the North. Maybe he feels they should die together, whatever the method that finally is wrought upon her. I don’t know. But I don’t think he will be the one to kill her.
I do, however, believe he left a little Lannister behind in Brienne. (With all that Fu***** that went on before the battle and after the feast, there will be a definite spike to the birth rate at Winterfell in the spring.) That will be a bittersweet twist – Brienne the Beauty, Brienne the maligned, will raise a Lannister child to full, productive, happy adulthood, something that Cersei, with all her sneaky machinations, couldn’t do.
Which leads to Missandei. OMG. Didn’t see that coming, or Rhaegal either. Sweet Missandei. Dracarys, indeed. Does anyone think Cersei knows what that means? She had that usual Cersei smirk on her face, like she was glad Missandei chose some nonsense word or prayer instead of pleading to be saved or saying goodbye. Does Cersei really know what’s coming because of killing Missandei?
I have more to say, but will be back later. Peace to my fellow Watchers of this wall. Don’t freak quite so much, it is a beloved story with an over-the-top luxurious Thread Count. (Ahem, Ten Bears, thank you for loving that so much) the content of which will keep all of us occupied and interested in some aspect of it for years. Don’t attack your fellow Watchers, there is enough story to go around.
I don’t think that is accurate. Bran was limited to seeing what the trees saw at first, but his abilities go far beyond that now. He has said himself he remembers everything. Dorne didn’t have weirwoods when Rhaegar and Lyanna got married, but he was still able to see that. And he has had visions of King’s Landing. He saw the sept being blown up and he saw what at this point must be Drogon flying over the Red Keep.
Max T,
I don’t know about dragons, but I’m betting on one Stone Drogon.
A direwolf is no pet. And even dogs don’t like to be hugged.
Kevin1989,
Nah people are mindful here, wish I could say the same about some other dark and full of terror websites
fdr,
Danaerys was flying away from the Iron Fleet when they began firing at her ships. She was getting and staying out of range of the ballistas mounted on the ships. Weapons that she did not know whether they could turn or were also mounted on other parts of the ships. She only saw the bows and sails of those ships.
Grail King,
No, Sophie’s eyes are grey (see this very old interview from WOTW’s predecessor site).
Sansa’s eyes in the books are blue.
In a story, when you don’t hear anything further, then there’s no reason to think things are fundamentally different from when she left. And she left having ended slavery in the region, and with things in a very positive place. Overwriting that with a downer ending clashes with the text.
I’m sure the book ending will not be quite as tidy as the show’s, but the basic result will be the same: Dany completely upends an oppressive institution and allows something new to grow.
This will not turn Essos into paradise on Planetos, but it’s still much better than what came before. That there were problems along the way doesn’t change that; GRRM uses that story to show how hard it is to make major changes. There were things that could have been done better, but abolishing a centuries-old system of slavery was never going to be bloodless.
It’s honestly amazing to me that people are surprised this is how it’s playing out.
Seriously, what did you THINK was going to happen with the Aegon reveal? Everyone would just sit on it silently forever?? OF COURSE it was going to come out, to be used and debated to push him onto the throne by others.
Also why on earth do people feel Dany deserves the throne? Her ENTIRE rationale has been that it is her right, that she is the rightful claimant to the throne. That Robert Baratheon and the Lannisters are usurpers. Well, frankly, now she’s NOT the rightful claimant – and she’s basically trying to quash another legitimate claim to it. Is that just?
Can someone show me where they’ve revealed Dany to be a great ruler? Not a conqueror, but someone who governs somewhere smartly and successfully? On the flip side, Dany is a badass but there is a LOT of “fire and blood” in her.
Sansa looks genuinely terrified and also conflicted. She didn’t send Jon south to maneuver. She begged him not to go. She wants him to stay North, not go fight for the Iron Throne. HE chose to go.
I really really do think that she thought if she told Tyrion, that he may come to back Jon – and that would protect him. If he was just Jon Snow, there’s no real incentive for Dany’s people to protect him, not really. But as a just and legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne? That might put Tyrion in his corner AND HELP JON. Not kill him. Seriously people that think Sansa still wants any harm to come to Jon need to watch the show again.
What, everyone should keep this huge monumental secret that would maybe put a good and just person on the Iron Throne because Dany “deserves” the throne? Because she wants it?
The reaction some people are having is genuinely baffling.
My favourite scenes (in chronological muddle):
Sansa mourning Theon
Arya refusing Gendry *yeah!*
Littlebird and hound
Arya leaving with Sandor *yeah!*
Dany feeling her lonelyness in the strange North
Greyworm loosing everything
Cersei as Tyrion reminded her of her love to her children –
and sure more, when/if I can rewatch the episode.
I have to rewatch all season-8-episodes, one by one, before that it’s impossible for me to come to a conclusion for my own.
Ten Bears,
Good ending :o)
I remain, however, really puzzled why the show didn’t show us the reactions to Sansa and Arya learning?
So they learn this momentous secret and Arya is like…. k bye, leaving Winterfell forever?
I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but it is a TV show.
I don’t know if Dany is going to go full-on Mad Queen or not – she’s angry, with the right to be angry about a lot of things. I’ve been in her corner, understanding and rooting for her for a long time, even when she fried old man Tarly, (not so much with Dickon.)
But the biggest Uh-oh moment came for me in that scene with Jon. They’re kissing, it’s getting passionate, then he remembers she’s his aunt, and stops. She tells him, Honest Jon, whom she mildly chastised last season for being so honest and open to Cersei, she tells him that the solution to their problem is for him to keep quiet about his lineage. Forever. She’s supposed to love him, but she can’t accept who he really is. Jon has spent his whole life being cast aside because of “lineage,” or lack of proper, acceptable to the masses, documentation. Now she’s not only telling him not to tell anyone, she’s outright demanding that he not tell anyone. That was the wrong track to take, IMHO. Though he still swore to serve her and seemed to have no anger at her for doing that, I was angry on his behalf.
Yet, I was a bit angry on her behalf during the Tyrion/Varys convo. WTF, as Tyrion pointed out, they’re talking treason. Why didn’t he warn off Varys of such talk? One minute Tyrion is defending her actions as the those of any monarch who has ever reigned, the next he’s dancing on the edge of saying they should murder her, based on her maybe going “mad.” I’m beginning to think that Varys is an even bigger behind-the-scenes con artist than Littlefinger ever was, and we will find out he has had a lot more to do with events than we knew.
Sansa is the true Lady of Winterfell, Warden of the North. All you Sansa Snarkers can go snarl elsewhere, she’s awesome. You can tell how she’s grown, matured. She’s more worldly now. She understands life better than she ever did, and maybe a whole lot better than Dany ever will. She tells Sandor that he might have had a moment of happiness with the girl that offered to go with him. She sits and talks with him, puts her hand gently on his in camaraderie. Loved that. She’s not Little Dove anymore, but the Little Dove that sat with the women during the Battle of Blackwater, and tried to calm and soothe them, has grown into a beautiful lady. She’ll take care of her own. No, you snarking fools, she doesn’t want to be Queen, and she loves and accepts Jon, whatever and whomever he is.
Last season Arya told Sansa she needs better guards. Duh. Bronn strolls right it, and nobody says a word. He could have killed both Tyrion and Jaime and strolled right back out, and no one would have had the slightest idea what happened. Yeah, he’s hedging his bets. I kind of think he’s going to end up with Highgarden.
My thoughts are that Euron is going to kill Cersei. and Jaime. How is he not going to ask her how Tyrion could know she was pregnant? So, will Euron take the throne, and be another Mad King? The way things are going, it could happen.
Glad for Gilly and Sam. He’ll go back to Horn Hill now, and take care of all his women: Gilly, their little girl, his sister and his mom, and he will write the great story with the more poetic title. That’s a sweet part.
Arya and the Hound, omg, yes. Sad that Arya said she was planning to never come back. That’s bitter. One thing about all the conversations between her and the Hound this season kind of bugged me. When she left him, way back before she went to Braavos, he was begging, BEGGING her to kill him. “Kill me,” he kept shouting. She didn’t, she just left. Now he’s acting like things went down differently? She did show him mercy, she let him live. Hope those two make it out alive.
I agree that there are pacing, and narrative issues with GOT right now, and that those issues are mostly the result of the season/series timeline.
My guess is around the end of Season 5, the decision was made to wrap things up in three more seasons. Could it have been actor contracts and/or the cost of maintaining so many now big-name actors?
But it wasn’t because HBO wasn’t committed or there wasn’t some budget available. Otherwise they wouldn’t be working on a prequel.
I suspect the biggest factor was D&D’s desire to move on. They got sidetracked with the Confederate project (which was a distraction) and then got pulled into the Star Wars universe.
As a result, I think even to us fans parts of the story seem forced or contrived. For years some of the end-game characters meandered on their journey and suddenly everything happened at once. Dany is the best example. Metaphorically, Dany took her time meandering from California to Nebraska, then hopped a fighter jet to New York. Same with Arya. If she’d spent just a little time north of the Wall after her Faceless Men training, her take down of the NK might have been better received.
And then there’s Jon and Dany. Until this season, I wasn’t feeling Jon and Dany’s chemistry at any legit intensity level. Just when I was starting to see it, all of the sudden they’re introducing conflict. I’m not invested in them enough as a couple to care about it.
On the other hand, Jaime and Brienne’s arc is amazing because we’ve been experiencing it for so many years. Same with Bronn, Tyrion and Jaime. And the Hound/Arya. There’s history that invests us in the character interactions. Without the history, these newer interactions, especially the ones that are supposed to be major endgame stuff, feel like words from a script.
I still love the show, and appreciate the production and overall entertainment value. Each of the episodes this season have had a lot of outstanding film making and incredible moments. Not a hater, but still thinking that season 7-8 should have been full seasons, and maybe they even needed one more to do the story justice.
Arya plans to kill Cersei but she won’t do it at the end. She still has some morals , she doesn’t kill innocents (lady Crane, those lannister soldiers , frey women). Cersei deserves to die for her crimes and has earned her place on Arya’s list but her unborn child is innocent.
Just rewatched it again. Quick summary:
Dany: I want adulation and I want the throne and I want my boyfriend.
Evil Queen Cersei: I wantsss the thrrone. I wantsss the thrrrone.
Euron: I want her throne.
Jon: Hey, c’mon. I want everybody to be friends! But I don’t want my special, magical direwolf, the sigil of my father’s… erhm, mother’s house.
Ghost: I want outta this show.
Sansa: I’m not sure what I want but it’s the opposite of what my brother’s gf wants.
Arya: I want my family to stick together, until I leave them forever the next day. And I don’t want to be a lady and I don’t want to have friends and I don’t want to have love.
Bran: I don’t really want anymore.
Tyrion: I want happiness and validation and more wine.
Jaime: I want to take off my clothes.
Brienne: Me too!
Tormund: All I ever wanted was the big woman.
Sandor: Fuck off.
Pod: I got what I wanted. Twice over.
Gendry: I didn’t.
Davos: I want the Red Witch back.
Varys: I wanted a bigger role and got it.
Missandei: All I ever wanted was a better world.
Grey Worm: All I ever wanted was Missandei.
Wasn’t it also a script error when Jaime told Brienne that he strangled his own cousin?
I’m pretty sure that Jaime head-butted and beat to death his cousin. It was the Karstark guard that he strangled. Oops.
It would have been very amusing if Brienne corrected him and said I was there you idiot.
Yes I know everyone dislikes the monster baby scenario but hear me out.
Monster Baby – Cersei’s three children died, the woods witch was right, and she won’t have any more. So she’s planning on having indestructible heirs, c/o The Mountain and some poor surrogates (Septa Unella, Elia and planning on Dany [possibly Sansa]), with Qyburn as Mad Scientist ob/gyn. Tormund clued us in.
Parallel this with Dany having lost 2 of her 3 children. Dany has seen the blood magic MMR performed for Drogo. She’s seen her dead child Viserion becoming undead and even more powerful and indestructible. She could do anything to either revive Rhaegal or protect Drogo. Would she summon a red witch to her side, possibly? Use some other magical knowledge she acquired? She possibly knows about Jon being resurrected. On that note, it could be Jon who tries to lazarus Rhaegal.
Thanks for listening.
hahhahaha!…
Thronetender,
Yes, Sansa has been great so far.
That scene with Hound was very good. And I like how she watched the room.
I wonder what happens with her at WF and everyone in KL. They must have something to do beside reading the occasional raven message.
Alright, which of you cowards shit in my pants?!?!
How does one return to Dragonstone and not expect a trap? Do they even bother with scouts and spies? Varys I’m looking at you….
I see alot here are predicting Hound over Mountain-Stein with mercy kiss from Arya. I don’t think thats the way this GOT oreo crumbles. I’m gonna whisper something here that’ll sink alotta hearts, but its what I think may happen…
Arya death by Mountain.
Nadia,
Nice post.
Disclosing Jon’s birthright now, as opposed to when Robert was King, does not put him in danger as much as it undermines Daenerys. Jon is no weakling infant. He is a gifted warrior and beloved by his men.
He may even be beloved by Drogon. Enough that the dragon would not attack him/burn him.
Jon’s not the one who is in danger by Sansa’s revelation — Daenerys is. Sansa understands this, just as Daenerys does. The difference is, Sansa does not want a Targaryen restoration with Dany on the Iron Throne. She prefers her “brother” as the better option for the long-term interests of her family.
She will not kill the Hound. The show already told us in episode 4 what she will do when he is seriously injured.
SG: “Will you leave me behind?”
A: “Probably.”
Arya knows there is a way in to the Red Keep through secret passages. She took them before. Now, she has a reason to use them again. The fact she should have forgotten the way is not likely to matter.
They have shown us the dungeons and dragon skulls beneath the Red Keep all season long. We’ll be coming back to them in Ep 5 or 6, for sure. Whether that is from a strike mission attack by Jon and Company — or just Arya and the Hound is unknown.
Sandor and Arya seem almost certain to use them though.
Excellent summary. Thanks for the chuckle.
Sam: I want my family sword back!
Drogon: I want some armor and a better attack strategy!
Renly’s Peach,
Nope was right. He first strangled his cousin. Once his cousin was dead, he smashed his head in. That was because it would draw attention to the guards.
ShameShameShame,
Or what if cersei will be killed before the baby is born. That would be worse then the red wedding.
Kevin1989,
How would it be worse?
What would be worse would be if a red witch told Dany she needed King’s blood to revive/protect her dragons/children…
I think Dany will be asking Davos what happened after Jon got a knife through the heart.
And Cersei knows that Tyrion would never condone killing her while she’s with child. It’s to her advantage to believe she is pregnant.
As an aside, we still have the mystery of Drogo’s “resurrection” and the loss of Rhaego which, in the books, involved the shadow of a wolf and a man ringed with fire.
I wondered the same thing, but figured after it was over their real bodies reformed? Not sure.
One more point:
Nobody seems troubled by asking why Jon didn’t ask about to say goodbye to Arya. Jon doesn’t bother to do so — he doesn’t even ask about her. He knows she has already left – which suggests that he knows why.
Did Arya really leave Winterfell on a lark for no reason just to avoid Gendry and secretly decided to finish off her list? Or did she go south to KL after a discussion about it with Sansa — and maybe even Jon and Bran?
I don’t think Arya leaves on the sudden all on her own. She and Sansa talked first. There was a plan. We just don’t know it yet.
Nope. I just watched the scene again. It happened as I said. He head-butts and beats to death his cousin, then strangles the guard.
I hope so.
I also believe that Arya left WF with another face.
(Damn I wish we had a scene where Arya demonstrated her skills for Jon…but like you mentioned, it seems to be implied)
George,
I would LOVE all of that as an ending!! Especially Sam. But I now don’t think we’re going to get anything as neat and fulfilling 🙁
Next series: The Adventures of Tormund and Ghost! 🙂
Sansa wasn’t appalled, she saw it for what it was, just like Tyrion did.
Dani’s reply, you’re not the only one that’s clever.
The episode was really, really good until the non-sense took over at the time Rhaegal was supposedly killed, at that very moment starts the same typical series of things that doesn’t have any kind of logic.
1- Dany doesn’t see Euron fleet from the sky in a clear sunny day. Greyworm and nobody on their fleet didn’t saw them either…
2- Two arrows hit Rhaegal from the front and the third on the neck came from the side…
3- Dany instead of inmediately turn away she charges over them as a perfectly clear target.
4- When she finally turns away and not a single arrow hit Drogon why the fck she didn’t circle them and burn them all from the back where that ballista is not installed and the ships sails doesn’t allow them to aim at her?
5- That scene to ask Cersei to surrender after she betrayed them all and have just killed her second dragon and she have Missandei… For fck sake, is this Game of Thrones? This scene was just made up to show the drama of Missandei being killed.
6- That same scene… which have so much things wrong… she presents herself at Kings Landing gates with like 70 men and put Drogon her last dragon in plain sight in front of an army and like 20 dragon killing ballistas that clearly are aimed at Drogon and full of archers ready to shoot at the first sign. And Cersei doesn’t take that chance neither…
7- Aren’t we supposed to be in full winter? When Jaime was leaving Kings Landing it was really cold and even snowing and from then until today Kings Landing looks like fking Qarth.
Still there’s people who try to defend these kind of really bad writing.
Can’t they use their imagination anymore just to end this show with all the respect it deserves?
– If they want to kill Rhaegal why don’t they make it more realistic adding a winter storm at the sea? very confusing, a lot of rain and then the arrows came from nowhere… wouldn’t that be a lot more convincing and appropriate?
– That encounter with Cersei, total nonsense. Why don’t make Cersei send Missandei’s head? I mean, that’s the style of the Game of Thrones we fell in love with.
All the chapters have suffered from the same things, in general they are good until the non-sense kicks in and after 8×03 I’m prepared for whatever they decide, that one was a breaking point, I hope they have a big surprise to justify that mess.
George,
I don’t feel like any of the characters earned their moments. It was the most disjointed episode yet. The writers needed to move people around for the big finish and it hurt the characters and the story arcs. BOO! Hated it for that reason. Except for Arya. She felt true to her character.
What is dead,
Why do some people assume they were on the ship and at sea? They could have easily taken a smaller and faster ship to reach KL ahead of the royal ship. Then snuck in to kill the prince and then snuck out. The ship wasn’t in open sea, it was still in the harbor as shown on screen and made more evident by Tristan working on the stones for the funeral. There was nothing plot holy about that.
Depends on who you ask : Sansa’s eyes are blue.
Sophie’s eyes are stated blue, gray and green, by no less then 5 different sites and or interviews.
Must depend on the lighting.
Your comment is refreshing, indeed! Dany is indeed receiving too much hate.
I had no consistent issues with pacing. First half was slow, second half was fast. That’s about the size of it.
I do not WANT Tyrion to die but it goes back to the question I posed – was Cersei being cold and calculating and valuing her enemy’s pain above her own satisfaction? It’s a step up for Cersei’s growth towards being as smart as her brother.
Cosca,
If Dany was flying on a dragon, say 500m + in the sky, she should have seen those ships from km’s away
Chilli,
Well, if Arya wanted sex, she should have saugth a male prostitute or at least some random Dothraki screamer. Gedry had feelings and expectations and she know it. And she promised him to be his “family”. Exploring the world is not an excuse for breaking peoples hearts. What Arya did counts as an act of profligacy. Period. And now she’s legitly a cold hearted bitch.
Are we watching the same show? Arya knew Gendry to be safe, not some random person. She told him outright what she wanted before they could both very well die. He went with it willingly. She told him years ago, as a child, that she could be his family. He rejected that, as he knew that’s not how it works. So how is that a promise broken on her part? Years pass. Both have grown. She still doesn’t want to be a lady. Gendry has fallen for her, she tells him quite kindly, to be fair. Yes, he has feelings. Now. So she should change her path in life because she wants him to not be momentarily unhappy? Nonsense.
I agree.
I think we will get Martin’s vision in the show-ending.
Remember Missandei is a kid in the books, Bronn is out of the picture, which means he’ll probably die, and I’m not sure Arya+Gendry and Jamie+Brienne will happen in the books, so they don’t ending up together was a given.
And guys, it doesn’t really matter HOW things happen, how Euron kills Raeghar or whatever, as George couldn’t tell them everything, and they don’t have infinite time and resources…what matters it WHAT happens, how it will end.
Who betrays who, who kills who, and why…the how doesn’t really matter, for me, the same way that different productions of Shakespeare would change the superficial aspects of the play, the how, but not the what or the why.
Finally it’s distressful to read how many people wants Dany to burn everything…I guess it’s the same kind of people that are drawn to tyrants in real life, that vote for the Trumps and Bolsonaros of the world.
Dany’s fate was sealed from the start, these books have always been about the Stark kids
Juri,
No, the guest right (and hospitality obligation) is not only about not harming a guest. The rule is simple: everyone whom you allow under your roof becomes a family and remains a family as long as they stay (and often even afterwards). So harming a guest under your roof in any way equals harming a family member in a simiar way. Whinging about haveing to feed guests equals to whinging about having to feed own children, etc. At least, that’s how the guest right and hospitality obligation works in our world.
As for Arya, I think you misunderstood me. Although, I condemn Arya’s character from the moral perspective, I’m fully satisfied in terms of character development. Arya has always been a trikster, and I’m pretty happy to see her starting to pay for that, although she might be turning into a new villain, which will stop Jon’s heart.
You see this is the fundamental problem why the series ending is coming across as so divisive. Dany is not the hero of the story (at least from what we’ve seen so far), she’s only one of a number of characters and in my opinion is very grey (i.e. neither good or bad). She is however one of the more popular characters (probably up there with Jon, Tyrion and Arya), and her fans have built up her story to be a success but it seems more like a tragic arc at this point.
Fully agree, please keep any leaks off here, we are at the final two episodes of an epic story I don’t want it spoiled now.
Inga,
She did not promise to be his family. She never made any promise at all. It’s not because you have sex with someone, you have to stay with that person the rest of your life.
The first and maybe only time you have sex, it’s important to have that with someone that loves you and respects you. Not with a prostitute, that’s good for people like Bronn.
This is also my only complaint about this episode. Someone here said it’s fine they didn’t show the reveal because it’s going to be repetitive. However, this is important info to this family. They all grew up thinking their father cheated on their mother, and their mother carried that misery for years to the point of becoming mean to a child. Maybe we could have gotten different reactions from the sisters and highlight some drama – Arya would be like “you’re still my brother” while Sansa would be like “you’re the rightful heir to the throne!” 🙂
Of course, they didn’t have to show Bran repeating the whole story. They could have just cut back to the scene right after Bran told it to them.
Further to this discussion, Inga, If you truly wish to push this assertion that Arya “promised’ Gendry that she would be his family, then you are either a fool or you are clutching at straws. I choose to believe that you are clutching at straws. Even if what Arya said amounted to a promise, the very second that Gendry refuses it, the offer ceases to be valid. If Gendry wanted to rekindle that proposal, he would need to approach her and ask if she was willing to make the offer again. Once someone has declined something it is off the table. You can’t come back to it as if it were an offer in perpetuity. If I offer you $500,000 for your house, and you say no, and i say ‘ok then’ and walk away. you can not hold me to an offer of $500,000 as if that offer was open ended. That is just standard common sense. Arya may have moved on in all the time in between. And, the fact that Arya was a little girl at that time is relevant to the equation but not necessary. You don’t need Arya’s childhood to be established as a point of contention in this issue. Standard rules of trade and negotiation make an offer that is declined, a dead offer.
Am I the only one who thinks it’s obvious Dany should “go home” to Essos?
She says to Jon she feels rejected in Westeros and seems kinda homesick. If she can find the maturity to put her power-hungry nature aside, Dany should clearly go back to her roots. She could rule over a very peaceful era in Essos, now she has saved the world from the big threats.
There’s symbolism in the dragons too, who are vulnerable in Westeros, meeting with constant failure. I am certain Drogon would tell Mum, let’s pack and go home, where the weather was much nicer.
Wait, are there leaks? I avoided this website, especially the comments section, for more than a year for fear of being spoiled. There were some posters before (during S6) who posted their speculations for upcoming episodes that turned out to be spoilers. Is it still safe to read the comments here?
Possibly no.
Damn. I really like the discussions here but I also don’t want to accidentally step on a landmine… 🙁
Inga,
Did I understand correctly that you think Arya will kill Jon?
No, you are not the only one. I think leaving for Essos is definitely her best option, and she should have left as soon as the AotD were defeated. It is evident that Daenerys does indeed believe that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne (i.e. she doesn’t require any further proof), so she needs to leave since Jon is not really interested in a relationship with her. I was hoping they would rule Westeros together, but that doesn’t seem to be happening in the show. I guess if they both die, they could rule the frozen far North as the Night Queen/Night King in a crazy plot twist. (I would NOT like this ending!)
It is tragic that Daenerys is so hell-bent on the Iron Throne that she is blind to the much better options available to her as well as her army and her dragons (now only Drogon). The longer she stays in Westeros fighting for the throne, the more she suffers. Daenerys is one of my favourite characters, but her selfishness and stupidity is getting annoying.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
“… like her crucifying men en masse without trial”…
Oh, you mean the well meaning, “good” 168 slave masters who crucified 168 children to show her the direction to their city? I am sure that would have been one hell of a court drama…
“… or burning a man alive to send a message to her enemies.”
Um, yes, because that’s what you do with enemies, ruthless as it is. Especially if they don’t want to listen to your words. And by the way: Jamie did the same with Edmure Tully. Jamie threatened him to catapult his newborn son over the walls of Riverrun if he doesn’t do what he, Jamie, wants. And it was heard. Loud and clear. In both cases. And yet I never heard someone calling Jamie mad.
I never was a Targaryen loyalists. I don’t give two sh** about dragons and this whole destined to be ruler talk. Daenerys is not even my top favourite character. But you will see me bending over backwards to “justify” Daenery’s actions and decisions as long as there are people out there bending over backwards to “prove” that her actions and decisions are solely rooted in madness and “clearly” only a sign for her descend into darkness.
“…making it plain that it was wrong”
Plain? I heard and read a lot of ways to describe Game of Thrones. Plain was never an adjective I associated with it. Nothing in this story (show and books) was/is ever plain or simple or shown as such.
Was her decision wrong? No.
Was her decision right? No.
Was her decision debatable? Hell, yes!
That’s why this story is so interesting, intriguing and engaging.
I don’t think that she could take that option now even if it was pointed out to her. With the death of Missendai and the word ‘dracarys’ on her lips, I think daeny would stay now to avenge Missendai even if before that incident she had her bags packed to leave for essos. And tbh, I don’t blame her. I know I would be yelling ‘tora tora tora’ if i were placed in the same position. There is something that happens to you inside when you see someone that you love treated in the way that Missendai was. Your own life fades into obscurity.
cosca,
The episode leaked (and the basic plotpoints/Missandei/Ghost clips even earlier) so that is why people rated it before it aired. They had already seen it.
I think there are many heroes in this story. Many characters have performed heroic deeds, such as Jon, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Daenerys, and so on. I guess it’s subjective who someone thinks is a hero, but I think it’s safe to say that Daenerys is considered to be a hero by many viewers. And we still have two episodes left to see how her story turns out.
I am ok with you disagreeing, that is fine. But, I never said that she needed it. Only said, that is what she would value in a partner if she ever looked for one, at least imo.
Sam,
I’m with what seems to be the majority on that. I think it was a big disservice towards the huge devoted fandom to not include this important revelation on screen showing the Stark sisters reaction to the news. I can’t conceive of why they’d omit it especially when they spent a lot of time on the drunken feast. I liked the merriment don’t get me wrong. But it a smidgen of it could have been cut to give us this. Plus thinking on it, Jamie and Brienne finally getting it on should have been portrayed more romantic and/or had some sizzle. It was just awkward lol.
Even if she turns out a villan, trying to end slavery is not a mean feat. For me she will always be a hero. Our own world has struggled with so much blood shed trying to end Slavery. Upending a system that is deep rooted is not easy. People can pick her apart. But for me- she trying to end slavery ( not just astphor- for army, she went to Yunkai -bed slaves, and Mereen) , she will always be a hero. Jon, for getting a perspective of his enemies – Free folk. Sansa- for ruling winterfell well. Arya- for surviving all that shit. So for me, even if Dany turns evil, she will always be a hero
You are completely right. At this point, Daenerys has no choice but to avenge her child and her best friend. She is in the thick of things now, which is unfortunate because these two deaths could have been avoided if she had left for Essos after the AotD were defeated. Daenerys accepts that Jon is the rightful heir, and she knows that Jon is uncomfortable with their romantic relationship. Therefore, knowing this, she should have left at this point and let the people of Westeros fight Cersei themselves, especially since she no longer has first claim to the throne and because of how much she has already sacrificed.
Chilli,
It’s not because you have sex with someone, you have to stay with that person the rest of your life.
Well, no, but a few months at least is nice. lol.
Hanni,
Exactly. When did she punish the masters? When they killed Selmy and almost killed Greyworm. Even after that, she offered her hand in marriage as a peace deal. Come on now! Is she ruthless? yes. Does she thinks highly of herself? Yes. But, there are so many things people want to prove that she is mad, when the same things are done by other people, it’s considered just. am I a Dany fan. Absolutely. Will I accept her becoming mad, ( may be.. with some sadness) but there is always a debate.. she’s never a Canon mad.. not atleast until now. Show has always built intrigue around her character ( will she/ won’t she become mad) just by the dialogues of the other characters.. mostly
Euron must be even more dense than I thought if he never even blinked at Tyrion knowing Cersei is pregnant. Bearing in mind that he was only told hours beforehand, how would Tyrion already know? I see a stand off between Euron & Jaime Jeremy Kyle style (Jerry Springer for the Americans) over who’s the baby Daddy.
Jon Snowed,
You know nothing Jon Snowed. When the snows fall and the cold wind blows you’ll look back and wish you had been prepared. Winter is coming, 🙂 Or has it left? I didn’t see any signs of it at KL parley Sunday.
Jon Snowed,
Let me know if ya can’t see it in Florida…. I know some places to go in Orlando!
Excellent thanks, we are staying in Kissimee so that would be hugely appreciated!
Thge person taking contol of brans wheelchair was the maester. I think that might be a factor. The maester being the barer of news, or the barer of knowledge. Perhaps bran at that moment taped into what he was about to be told. There is any number of possibilities. but, I do think that the fact it was the maester was poignant.
BranStark,
Yes, I agree. To me, Daenerys is not an evil character or “mad.” She is being psychologically manipulated by Cersei in a very bad way, so her so-called “madness” is perfectly normal IMO. We have to give Daenerys credit for acting as fair as she could in her dealings with Cersei, but at this point, after what happened to Rhaegal and Missandei, she has every right to be ruthless toward her.
Thronetender,
Showing him mercy would have been killing him quickly as he’d asked. He was dying. The only reason he lived is because the lord of light needed him alive. At least, that’s my understanding of it.
Apollo,
Seven Blessings to you! You give me hope! You are the “beacon ever to my stormtossed heart” in this loooooooong night!
Jenny,
I agree with fdr and Tyrion Pimpslap, it’s a trick. Jamie loves Brienn, he didn’t leave her, just wants to protect her.
Nadia,
Why is Arya leaving “forever?” Where else does she want to settle down and with whom? She’s off to being a “lone wolf?” Just having a thought….George wife says better not kill Arya…okay but Maisie “last woman standing” remark seems foreboding now.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I can’t help thinking Jon will survive and solve his predicament by joining the Night’s Watch and thus giving up his claim to the throne.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Agree. In my opinion this was a very good episode, really Got-like. Ther were mistakes, but overall I liked it very much unlike the previous episode (what I still hate)
Grail King,
It must have been the lighting in the pic I saw then. I could have sworn Cercei/Lena has brown eyes but I find out they are green.
Apparently episode 5 was leaked online. Don’t worry the link doesn’t say the plot or show the link to the leaked episode it just reports that it was leaked online and taken down quickly. They don’t say what happened only that people were unhappy. They don’t say why. https://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz-tv/hot-tv/777179/Game-of-Thrones-season-8-episode-5-leaks-online-Daenerys-Targaryen-Cersei-Lannister
I don’t believe either Dany or Cersei are explicitly mad, but they are both impulsive, corrupted by their pursuit of power and capable of doing very bad things to achieve that power.
Jon Snowed,
( The trick is getting that info to you! Wonder also where Ten Bears lives in Florida? )
I really, really hope that’s not true otherwise this place could become a minefield over the coming days. That said, the Daily Star is genuine gutter press and far from a reliable source so I wouldn’t trust it at all without more reliable sources confirming it.
Che,
Jon didn’t promise Dany he would keep his birthright a secret.
Exactly! He refused her the one thing she asked. How is that supporting her as the queen? She asked him to keep it a secret, but his loyalty was not to her but to his “family” of cousins. That’s what I’m saying! He did not promise, because he is a hypocrite. “Oh, you are my queen!” – meant “I will do anything I want.” Pretty words from the pretty boy, who never does his thinking with his brain.
the unburdened,
Tyrion made the exact same plea when he asked her to send her army to fight the dead, and the plea failed then, too. Why would he repeat himself? It made no sense to me. I’m a little over Tyrion.
Re: tears in her eyes, I think she is recalling Myrcella, Tommen, and Joffrey, and losing them. But I don’t think she has any babies inside her, unless it is Qyburn’s creation of some horror.
She could have ordered him as his queen, but she asked him giving him the choice, hoping he would choose her. But he didn’t. He chose his family.
Going back to Tyrion’s statement to Jon in season 7:
“That’s not a reasonable thing to ask.”
Dany is trying to deny the man who has spent his whole life thinking himself a bastard and struggling with his identity the chance to share with his close family that all along, he has never been a bastard and that their father never betrayed their mother. He doesn’t intend to use the information to claim the throne, yet still she only thinks of herself, not him. She is not acting like his queen in that situation. She is acting like his lover, who is in a moment of desperation. Jon didn’t cause her desperation, not intentionally, but she still wants him to fall on his sword for her, to prop her less rightful claim up by denying his identity to his sisters. As Tyrion says, that is not a reasonable thing to ask and I am glad that he follows his own heart on this one.
I must have missed the part of the show where Jon swore he would always do everything Dany asked of him without question. Which episode was that in?
When knights become sworn swords of lords and ladies, the lord or lady in question promises not to ask the knight to do anything that would bring them dishonour in return for their loyalty. For Jon, not telling his sisters the truth would have brought him dishonour. What Dany was asking of him throws fealty and loyalty out the window because she was asking him to dishonour himself for her benefit.
I wonder if there will be a night’s watch at the end of it all. It would be like George to make us think there is some significance in the 1000th lord commander’s identity only to then abolish the night’s watch instead. They can’t rebuild the wall, they don’t have the technology and the wildlings are now at peace with the Westerosi and (as of right now) the NK is gone. I don’t see the point in the night’s watch reforming (seeing as currently they’re all wiped out). I actually think Jon would be against the Night’s Watch because he wouldn’t want to restart a group that one day, in several generations time, when memory had grown faint, started hunting wildlings again.
Renly’s Peach,
You’re right, I watched it again. It was the guard he strangled.
No I’m going to say Cersei is the only one on par with Aerys. Paranoid, refuses to leave her Keep, uses her Mountain to kill anyone who talks about her. Makes an O face every time she gets to torture someone or cause them pain. Blew up an entire Sept full of people without caring about collateral damage. Made a guy who likes to experiment on humans her sidekick. Let’s say that Joffrey didn’t fall far from that crazy tree, but Cersei was better at pretending.
And the things she did in childhood? (which in books include murder) She’s always been that way.
Dany has a serious temper and she can be arrogant and can tend to lose the plot a bit in her brother’s destiny bs. She also happens to have a giant nuke that makes everyone fear her every mood, but she actually cares about other people and experiences genuine emotion.
Her first impulse is fire and blood but she’s shown on multiple occasions that she will listen to advice and restrain it. It just so happens that lately the advice has all come at a great cost to her and the loss of everyone she loves and trusts. She’s ready for some payback.
So Dany is dangerous, yes, and she might end up going too far. The potential is there for this to be either a villain’s origin story or a hero’s journey.
But Cersei is a true psychopath.
All of this. This scene is difficult to defend. She’s right about how people will react, she’s right about Sansa, but there will always be people trying to find a reason to get the person on the throne off the throne. She knows that.
So taking away his story and making it about her, when we know how much he’s suffered, is selfish in the extreme.
She never brought up marriage, not that I’m sure he would say yes since she is his aunt and he’s got issues about that. But it never even occurred to her that he shares the last of the great Targ bloodline with her. She hasn’t mentioned him marrying someone else and having that bloodline continue since she thinks she can’t have children.
She wants him to keep his mouth shut, even to his family, and go back to the way things were when he was her bastard lover with no claim to her throne.
But you love him more than you loved Jorah?
cosca,
Dude wtf. They couldn’t anticipate the royal fleet would be protecting the water side of the red keep from dragons and other ships? Are they straight stupid in your mind, or you giving them actual pretext for such noob tactics?
These Lannister siblings sticking together through it all and still standing strong and in power with 2 episodes left though! Tywin has never been more proud.
Also if Cersi cant bring herself to kill Tyrion because hes family even though she seems to hate him more than anyone in the world, then I dont see any Lannister on Lannister murder coming like I used to, and my name is looking more and more solid every week this season.
Direcat,
Even if she had order him, he would still have refused her. Just like Ned refused Bobby B when he wanted Daenerys killed. Just like Davos refused Stannis when he wanted Gendry killed. A person can always refuse to carry an order that goes against what he/she believes. Jon believes he has a duty to tell his family about the family secret. Frankly, it is Jon’s prerogative to do whatever the hell he wants with that information. He’s already re-confirmed his support for Daenerys as Queen, despite knowing that by law he’s the actual head of House Targaryen. Asking him to abandon his principals is not only unfair but given who he is, it is also futile. Homey don’t play that.
RG,
I agree, Cersei is truly crazy. And her and Euron make a lethal team. But they will only support each other as long as they think they can gain something from the other. I wonder if Tyiron’s comments on the baby, will put a crack in their already unstable relationship. Also, I wonder if we are going to get to see Yara in the next episode. I would love for her to kill Euron.
RG,
I don’t doubt that Daenerys “loves” Jon but she was straight up manipulating him right there. Same with Sansa. I do think Sansa “loves” Jon but she would not hesitate to try to manipulate him if she thinks she needs too. In this sense, I think Arya is a better person than both these ladies, despite her cold-blooded killer tendencies.
Danny,
You are right about Arya, she is straight up and doesn’t play games. I like that she took up for Daeny in the godswood, b/c she was right, they did need Daeny to defeat the NK, and Arya recognized that tactical advantage, whereas, Sansa being the lady of WF, should have recognized that but let her mistrust of Daeny blind her to that fact. I was giving Sansa a chance until she broke her oath she gave Jon in the godswood. She a liar, just like Cerssei in that respect; she may not be crazy but she is selfish and manipulates to her liking.
If you look back at the casting, you will see that the Lannister family was cast with only the most experienced actors. (Among the younger set, Jack Gleeson has the best critic reviews up to GOT. Tommen and Mycella were minor short roles!) I believe this family was intended to carry the story through to the end. They may all die in the final episode but much of the quality of the show always depended on the performers assigned to be Lannisters.
I love this, and feel the same! Thank you for saying what I at least have been worrying about.
Did anyone else notice that the “Kings Landing” Castle and large gate was the same they used for Quarth? What the hell? Did they think we are rookies in GOT? Grrrr
Che,
I wholeheartedly agree that it is an unreasonable request to ask. I find fascinating the situation both Dani and Jon are into. On one hand, Dany has built her whole identity around the idea that she is the last Targaryen and therefore the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. She’s always been adamant about that. On the other hand, Jon has always suffered because part of his identity was denied to him (not knowing who his mother was). And now, Jon’s true identity threatens to shatter Dani’s. So she asks him to keep denying his in order to preserve hers… It’s quite a pickle they are in.
Since Jon doesn’t want to be king, she could ask him to claim the Iron Throne, help him take it and then asking him to abdicate in her favor… But that wouldn’t make it HER conquest and she wouldn’t be THE rightful heir.
RG,
If Cersie is on par with Aerys – how do we define Euron and Ramsay? Because Cersei is evil yes and she has no qualms about using torture against her enemies and cares none for the collateral damage she causes. But unlike Ramsay (Theon and many a girl) and Joffrey (Ross, among others) and Euron (thinking more of Book Euron), I don’t remember her ever torturing someone just for the fun of it. Septa Unella is revenge torturing, I mean the Septa delighted in humiliating and hurting Cersei so we all knew that her end would be awful. Cersei is an interesting character in that yes, she has psychopathic tendencies but with lots more restrain that your full blown psychopath like Aerys. I mean Aerys had stopped even grooming towards the end.
Neither Cersei or Daenerys have gotten to the Aerys-mad level yet. But both have tendencies towards cruelty and both are entitled as hell. What has always distinguished one from the other is that one seems to have empathy towards those who don’t pose a threat to her (the subservient class.) Nonetheless, Dany has partaken in revenge-torture in the past, lets not forget the method of punishment she chose for Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah. She buried them alive. That’s cruel, no matter how you look at it.
kevin1989,
He’s killed so many people he probably forgets the details…
I didn’t say that and frankly I agree with you. I simply made an observation.
Queen of Nothing,
I think the showrunners have already hinted at Jon’s ending in the last episode. He sent Ghost to the (real) North. Ghost is a part of him and he sent him away because he thinks Ghost will be happier in his natural environment and Jon also told Tormund that he wished he was going with them. Then Tormund turns around and tells him that he’s got the real North in him and when Jon hints that they may never see each other again, Tormund tells him “you never know.” This is similar to Jon telling Arya that different roads lead to the same castle, meaning that despite them going their separate ways, in the end they may converge again. The show/book hinting at what is to come.
Once Jon is forced to do his duty – and I’m thinking a human version of dance with dragons here- he will take himself off the equation by exiling himself to the environment that best suits him. This will also allow the character to finally have a true say in how he lives the rest of his life. Also, as Bobby B pointed out, he would remain a King hidden under snow.
George,
Ooh am all over the Hound/Arya theory!
Well, the writers certainly did.
I did! Or at least I thought it looked similar.
I wondered why Arya said she didn’t plan on coming back to WF too. Then it dawned on me that she probably expects to die in KL. I really hope that doesn’t happen.
I expected one of the guards on the city wall to taunt the ambitious usurpers in order to relieve some of the tension. “Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!”
Renly’s Peach,
I don’t want Arya to die either, but if you think about it, if she kills Cersei, then her character arch has come full circle, so what else is there for her to do? I’m going to prepare myself for a lot of main characters dying in the next episode, but it would be cool, if they ended Arya as sailing off to see what is west of Westeros.
Che,
Yes, I have such feeling that Arya might kill Jon: Jon might have problems with dying (“You will be fighting their wars forever”), so at some point Arya may emerge as a simple personification of death. But I hope that won’t happen before Jon reaches the age of eighty+. Or it will be something else entirely but I see Arya as a personification of death anyway.
Inga, you are pretty knowledge on ASOIF and a contributor I enjoy reading but I’m genuinely confused why (motive wise) Arya would kill Jon!? Cersei is clearly a target for her and I could see her taking out Dany to protect Jon but nobody else.
Inga,
Hmmmm. I have to say, like Jon Snowed, I don’t see any signs of this either. Jon may not wish to be brought back from death a second time, but I doubt he is seeking his death (ever since his rebirth in the BOTB, he seems to have a healthy wish to live again). And I also doubt that we will see the aftermath of the wars, with a massively aged up Kit Harington as Jon Snow sitting on the throne or in the ice beyond the wall, begging to be put out of his misery.
I didn’t predict the twist in 803 though, so maybe something crazy like this is just around the corner!!
Emily,
But Essos is not and has never truly been Dany’s home. Sure she’s adapted to those environments in some way but she never truly understood and fully took on their customs. It all felt foreign to her. The problem Dany is having is that she doesn’t truly understand what a family and home are.
The old saying, “home is where the heart is”, is true in this case. The problem is Dany’s heart is in the Throne which leads her to feel entitled and thus isolating herself from everyone else. If she stopped focusing on the Throne and focused on love (Jon) and becoming just a member of Westeros and not just a ruler she would find happiness.
Look at how a former enemy in Tormund admires Jon. That’s because Jon didn’t come to him demanding fealty. He came to him as a friend and partner who was willing to risk it all for strangers. That’s what Dany hasn’t done since arriving in Westeros. Daario told her to get to know the land she planned on ruling.
Come down off the head table and sit & mingle with the men & women who fought alongside her. Show them that you’re still just a regular person just like them. Power and entitlement are destroying Dany. The only way for her to save herself is tobandon the Throne like in her vision and give it to Jon. He’ll still probably let her rule or get her opinion on big decisions. And it will allow her to focus on the things which she truly really wanted from the beginning: that’s family & love.
It’s not necessarily a trick. Although Jaime has feelings for Brienne, he is still not over Cersei. Their relationship was/is toxic, but he still loves her and he believes she is carrying his child. This is a strong motivation for him to want to protect Cersei.
I read an article where NCW explains this. This is from the article:
“Can we redefine ourselves?” Coster-Waldau asked himself as he approached this final season. “Most people have moments in their life where you go, ‘Can I really, fundamentally change?’ . . . The core of him has always been Cersei. . . . When that’s taken away, what are you then? What’s left? Is there anything left? When he leaves [King’s Landing at the end of Season 7], obviously he has no idea. He doesn’t know the answer to that question.”
[. . .]
So the bottom line is this: Jaime is an extremely honorable and loyal character. He promised to fight for the living. Keeping that promise was enough to inspire him to break from Cersei. But that oath to Brienne and to the North fulfilled, he’s now reverted to another oath: the one he swore to Cersei that it would just be the two of them against the world. Does that mean he dies in her arms? Does that mean he kills her? Do they die together? It’s too early to know for certain, but whatever he’s headed towards can’t possibly be good for him. So if you want to talk about tragedy in Game of Thrones talk about Jaime Lannister a man who came so close to being the hero he always wanted to be and fell back on old habits anyway.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-why-jaime-leaves-brienne-for-cersei-kill-her-nikolaj-interview
That would be cool. I’d like to see that.
I wonder if Arya has Littlefinger’s face in her saddlebag?
Or is that just what they want us to believe?
I firmly believe that Jaime will do something heroic before the end. I’ll be sorely disappointed if this doesn’t happen. Guess I’d better start preparing myself now, just in case……
Psst! Tyrion! Please tell Jaime about Lancel.
I agree that Daenerys should focus on her love for Jon, and she should encourage him to take the throne even though he doesn’t seem to want it. She should only take the throne if Jon is absolutely certain he doesn’t want to rule. And it’s only fair to give him some time to make that decision. However, it seems that Jon is not really interested in a romantic relationship/marriage with Daenerys, and I highly doubt that she would be okay to just give “her opinion on big decisions,” as you said, if she is not ruling at his side. So, if Jon is not interested in Daenerys, and he ends up ruling Westeros, he would likely marry someone else. Thus, she would not have a family and love with Jon. In this case, I think it’s in her best interest to leave for Meereen where she is still the queen. Also, one must consider her army (e.g. Grey Worm) and Drogon, who would probably rather go back to Essos and leave the misery and hatred of Westeros behind. After all, it’s not just about Daenerys – she needs to consider what is best for her people and her one remaining child.
I agree that Jaime will likely do something heroic before the end in regard to Cersei. However, he still loves her and will probably try to convince her to give up and stay alive. I also think that even if he did find out about Lancel it would not make a huge difference in his feelings for her. Ending a toxic relationship where love is involved is easier said than done.
kevin1989,
Fair, but I guess the question for me is the idea that just because everyone in Westeros might want him to accept kingship, that it automatically follows that he will do it. If any character has the personal conviction to decline, I’d say it’s Jon. And since his past leadership experience was more about stepping up to deal with impending doom than an inherent desire to be in charge, it doesn’t seem obvious that he would agree to lead after the threat of doom has fully passed.
Are there possible scenarios where he would willingly step up to the role? Absolutely. I just don’t think the reason currently on the table (that a lot of folks think he’ll be better at it than Dany) is the reason that will get his character there. Disclaimer: that’s through the lens of my opinion of behavioral consistency for this character, which I could be wrong about, and which I’m not going to allow myself to be disappointed about if it proves wrong 🙂
Cosca,
Ha, I’d call a direct hit that downs Drogon some serious shit! I guess the battle was basically over at that point, but still…..
Am I the only one who believes Varys the Eunich sent Cersei a crow msg allowing Dany to be ambushed by the Iron Fleet? He’s a dead man, because Tyrion will finally figure out why the’yve been surprised more than once.
In my opinion, this scenario may have been planned out. I don’t fully trust Tyrion (mostly since last season). He is probably the most clever character in the show, and I think that his intellectual development is being diminished for a reason (i.e. purposely made to look that way). From what we have seen in this episode, it appears that Cersei’s plan is to provoke Daenerys psychologically and push her into “mad queen” mode so that the people of Westeros will never accept her as their queen, and Tyrion may be part of this plot. Cersei would have loved to kill him on the spot and it probably took an extreme amount of willpower for her not to do so. I think the only thing that stopped her was a previous agreement.
Snow Crystal,
Yes, and Cersei keeps Tyrion alive, cause he is useful: he is not a conscious traitor, but Cersei knows how to pull his strings and Tyrion falls into her traps and draws Dany along with him.
Look, what’s happening. Since, they came to Westeros, Tyrion has ben making one mistake after another. He even admits that he has been a fool, but for some reason he thinks he can junge Dany from a position of a smart-one. He has failed to read Cersei, but he still thinks that he (and Varys) are perfectly capable of reading Dany right: she shows a bit of distress and they immediately freak about her turning into a mad queen. What about her fighting the AOTD? What about her picking a sword to cover Jorah’s back?
In fact, the more I think the more I feel that the whole “Dany turning into a mad queen” thing serves Tyrion’s character development more, than anything else: he spoke about believing her, yet now he’s talking treason in a cold heart. Well, almost, couse Tyrion has shown signs of caring about Dany as a person, too: “What will happen to her?” But still, he doesn’t stop Varys when he straightorwardly implies murder, he doesn’t call the Unsullied to put Varys into a cell, where he should go by every law of gods and men. For some reason, Tyrion thinks that he deserves the second chance after screwing up on a big scale, but Dany should be disposed at the first sign of distress (despite of the fact, that she has done much more good, than bad since she came to Westeros).
On the other hand, that’s how people act in real life, and I’m glad that GoT addresses this issue: sure, loyalty shouldn’t be unconditional, but when exactly it should be dismissed for the sake of greater good (allegedly)? In case of Dany, it’s way too early IMO.
Can’t read through all of the comments, it’s too much. 😱
Stray observations and questions:
– What happened to the corpses that were reanimated in the crypts? Did they burn them as well? Did they also burn the whole army of the dead or did they disintegrate all into dust after the Night King and the White Walkers were dead?
– What happened to Little Sam? Did he die off-screen? Was it mentioned in an episode?
– Sansa breaking her oath like five minutes after swearing it was really annoying. This is a development that really should have been stretched over two episodes (with a few steps in between).
– NO WAY would Jon leave Ghost without petting/thanking him. (I’m not a dog person but this really broke my heart. And I felt like it was completely out of character for Jon.) (I know, I know, it was probably for budget/VFX reasons, but, come on, it’s the last season! You could have shaved of a few seconds of dragon animation somewhere.)
– Will Bran move into a cave and grow roots like the previous Three-Eyed Raven?
– I can somehow accept that Euron was able to surprise Dany and the dragons (even from high up you don’t see everything, especially if you’re being distracted by coming home after a long exhausting trip) but that three bolts hit Rhaegal in a deadly manner and none Drogon? A bit too much (bad) luck.
– Why didn’t Misandei jump? Is being executed better than killing yourself? Or was she still hoping that Cersei might spare her?
– No reaction shot of Euron when Tyrion mentions the pregnancy? I hope it’ll have some fallout in the next episodes!
– What happened to Qyburn at the end? Tyrion walks past him (and towards the gate), but when he turns around after Missandei’s execution (*sniff*) Qyburn is nowhere to be seen between Tyrion and the rest of the group.
– I have no clue who’ll end up on the throne at the end but I have the feeling it’ll be neither Dany nor Jon nor Cersei.
Apollo,
I desperately want you to be right. Like others have said, everything is shaping up to be too bitter for me – like I just bit into a grapefruit without sugar 🙁
Che,
Yeah, especially with Jon telling Tormund the free folk are welcome in the North. Unless a new other-wordly threat arises to threaten humanity, I don’t see the point of rebuilding the Night’s Watch.
Summer: But this episode showed me one thing (dare I say it?) : Sansa is in love with Jon.
I agree with you. Her worry, her smile and heart-eyes, it’s obvious to me.
She’s losing her head because of her losses (Missandei and Jorah aka her moral compasses, Rhaegal) and her thirst of power/the IT. She’s even hurting people around her – that scene with Jon in his chambers left a bad taste in my mouth, I wonder if that was what Emilia was talking about.
Redx:
Sansa is no longer a Stark. More a Bolton or Baelish! Cannot even keep her word in the Godswood.
At this point Jon is so cornered that I actually felt RELIEVED that someone tried to find a way out of this.
An oath is not valid when your family is in danger, and when she realised how afraid Tyrion was of Dænerys, Sansa did what it took to protect her pack. She’s playing the Game of Thrones on Jon’s behalf.
The more people know about Jon, the less likely it is that Dny just kills Jon in a quiet corner.
That was a tense, busy, overall pretty good episode. I wasn’t left feeling cheated and deflated like last week, I am pretty pumped for more, but…at the same time I kinda just want it to be over already, to see exactly what they’ve done with this story, with these characters. I do fear there being loose plot threads and story points and tracks that were laid over the course of the series but never picked up again, people who may simply never be mentioned again (even people whose final appearances might have been in this past episode?! ;; ) I fear having to compile a list of those at the end. >< Surprise me within the last two, please. I'm getting the sense they could've gone a season or two more doing buildup and introducing cool stuff that should come into play later, but when it came to actually writing the endgame and tying it all up, it's possible they could've choked. I don't know…because then again, didn't all the main points come from George? He wouldn't have trolled them, would he?! In a way I'm actually grateful there are only 2 episodes left; wish they'd air both this weekend and just tear this band-aid off in one stroke. Because I've always been a D&D defender. So many times I've told people, "The last books will probably never be published, and I fell in love with the show first and foremost anyway, so I'm more than happy to accept it as canon." They seemed to be wrapping up so well, even as the pace began to necessarily hurry along. I had tremendous faith. As of S8E3, they're scaring even me. That one felt like severely abridged canon. (*keeps praying for awesome deleted scenes*) I think six episodes was the wrong choice; it should have taken at least 2-3 to defeat the Night King and White Walkers.
The whole "Dany's goin' mad yo" thing feels forced. The only way I've been able to imagine it as a believable (but still unsatisfying) end for her is if it's some inevitable genetic flaw that's kicking in as she loses so much. Of the last two Targaryens, one unfortunately inherited the crazy and the other didn't. I'd find it unfair to her character, but then again, this isn't a show about life treating people fairly. (I overall liked episode 4 and didn't share the problems others had, because I see these characters as individuals rather than avatars for their sex/race/whatever.) At any rate, she can get darker, they can tease it…but I'd hope it'd all be for her to turn things around at the last moment, at least. Think she's more (rightly) angry-mad than insane-mad.
I detest slimy Sansa more than ever. Haven't even liked my girl Arya this season. My main man Varys finally gets more than a line or two, and he's being hasty in basically declaring Dany a tyrant, even though she still hasn't done anything wrong or not totally understandable. (Man, I want your death to have something to do with the voice in the flames/the Lord of Light/etc. rather than just simple execution for treason.) On the one hand I want her to listen to poor Missy and torch the unspeakable evil that is Cersei; can't get madder than her. And you can't afford to wait much longer. But wait, hold up a sec:
-Why is Bran still absolutely useless? Would his sight make everything too simple and straightforward and drama-free, so he's sidelined into talking about old wheelchairs instead of anything remotely helpful? Shouldn't he be watching Cersei and Euron and informing on their activities?
-How about assassinating Cersei (which is what I hope Jaime will do?) You have a faceless man on your team, who recently succeeded in taking out the Night King without even using a face (still very iffy on that, especially how it looked and how quickly it arrived, though I did like Melisandre's "coach" scene leading to it.) Might as well consider that idea, Dany. At any rate she probably doesn't need to kill every KL citizen.
Brienne–If Jaime doesn't return to you (or dies in your arms or elsewhere), please give Tormund a real chance? Y'know, if ya want. Poor guy genuinely worships you exactly as you are.
Jon–I know the budget is preventing a lot of cool stuff this time around, but how dare you not give your good sad doggo at least one pet. Sickening.
Cleganebowl, I'm hype, go Sandor!
My rambling commentary was blogged as usual, but that's kinda my overall reaction. It's moving in a lot of predicted directions, but we'll see where they actually end up.
Just because I’m sick and tired of seeing people bad-mouthing and shitting on Sansa Stark (and even on Sophie sometimes), I’m going to say this because MANY people here need to know:
Jon and Sansa ruling together makes a ton of sense for the realm, considering they are both good leaders with shortcomings that are conveniently filled in by each other. Jon brings people together, inspires people, and is a proven hero. Sansa can play the game, thinks of the details, and plans ahead. Military and politics. Honor and justice. One just happens to be the rightful heir to the throne, the other is the key to the North with positive political relationship all over Westeros.
Rasool Sharifi,
Me too! I’ve always enjoyed the Jon/Tormund relationship 🙂 I loved his last line to Jon, “You’ve got the north in you. The real north.” I mean, from Tormund, that’s huge!
There were a lot of character moments I liked – I liked seeing Sansa relax a bit and join Tormund in egging on Jon to drink an entire horn of wine at once. That reminded me of what my younger sister would dare me to do at gatherings with alcohol 😉 (Plus, she’s way cooler than me). I liked the Brienne/Jaime/Tyrion drinking game, I liked the smiles Jon and Dany shared, I liked the Hound smiling when Dany proposed a toast to Arya, I liked Tormund splashing everyone with whatever was in his cup when he raised his cup to Dany, I liked the Davos/Tormund conversation, I even liked Bran just sitting there staring at nothing like a robot at the high table 😉 There were a lot of moments I liked in this episode!
Netheb,
Any storyline or character that threatens the long-revered Jon/Dany fairytale is trashed, this has been going on forever in the fandom and probably longer than that. It’s only gotten worse with the shows.
Though they both have shown exceptional leadership skills, I don’t think Sansa and Jon will ever be a couple.
I hope you are right about Jaime. My thought is, he is protecting Brianne, from Cersei. You know if he had said to Brianne something to the manner of “I’m going back to defeat Cersei” or something like that then Brianne would want to go with him, & Cersei would kill Brianne on sight, I’m sure of it. So, I think Jaime is protecting Brianne at the cost of their love, sadly, and I think he knows that he probably won’t come back from this mission. But if Jaime does die, I really hope Brianne will finish his story in the Knights book.
… A fairytale?
Ever since they’re in WF, Jon keeps avoiding Dny. Most of the time he’s miserable or closed off around her, especially in ep4 when we get Jon’s facial expressions showing as weary, irritated, and fearful when Dnerys complained about how the people love him and how he is a political threat to her.
Please don’t tell me the scene where Dany orders Jon to keep his parentage a secret from his sisters while he’s on his knees trying to convince her that he won’t contest her claim to the throne was romantic.
Dany’s Viserys-like emotional abuse of Jon was disturbing, and I don’t know how Jon could ever love a woman like this.
Netheb,
I was talking about the fan fairytale about ASoIaF being a Jon / Dany love story, long before the TV show even existed. The terrible reaction to this season is because it’s destroying that fairytale, you give some good examples of that here.
I was in no way endorsing said fairytale, especially not by the recent episodes.
I’ve never believed the story ends with Jon and Dany happily ever after sharing the throne. Frankly, I’m very happy the show seems not to be heading in that direction. That would be incredibly boring.
ShameShameShame,
No worries I got that you were just explaining people’s state of mind here on WotW 😉
The point that I’m trying to make is, you’re right, Jonerys is as sunk as the boatbaby because hints of how Dnerys is turning into a bad person are everywhere. I’m frustrated that instead of understanding how it’s where she was headed all along, people are instead shitting on other characters like Sansa.
I wish they had another way to cope because Sansa is very much on her way up through gaining the loyalties and respect of the other important political players.
She certainly deserves a huge comeuppance. Her father kept a vital secret for 18 years; Sansa can’t keep it for a few hours–despite swearing to under the Heart Tree!!!! She is scheming and will probably set off a chain reaction that will lead to potentially Shakespearean-level tragedy that alas no doubt won’t touch her. In Shakespeare most connivers are undone, but that is because they take physical risks. SAnsa does not.
Inga,
Unfortunately, Arya… I don’t even know where to start. I had a feeling that Arya’s tomboyishness won’t go unpunished, but I didn’t expet it to happen in such a gutwrecking way. Girl! You broke your vow: you promised to be a family to Gendry! Doesn’t matter, whether it’s “you” or “not you” – you gave your word. And you broke it. And what is this “I don’t need allies”? You survived, cause someone was always looking after you.
I was disappointed, but she had a legit reason, as we soon learn. Perhaps it truly is not her, but neither was it Lyanna. Gendry did himself no favour by coming on so suddenly and emphasising her being a lady– a trigger expression for her. For the time being, it’s off. But her real reason is probably the same thing that kept her awake after love-making: focus on her upcoming battle. After all, where did Gendry find her? Honing her archery, which will be essential in taking out Lannister soldiers! She knows Cersei is the Alliance’s next enemy, not just her personal quarry, and that eliminating her will be more complex than killing the Night King was. She has to get in, overcome guards, face the Mountain, kill the Queen, and exit safely. Little wonder she is fatalistic. Why even contemplate a happy future when there may not be one? But with Houndie along, they both have a better chance of succeeding. All for one and one for all.
Varys sent a crow to Cersei telling her about Danys plan. thus the ambush. Death to the eunich in the next episode. bank on it!
Urs,
+
100000% agreed!!
Snow Crystal,
I think Tyrion is playing both queens. Though there are surely many shades of grey in it: Basically he hates his sister and he doesn’t care much for Daenerys. And he sure as hell has one or two issues with all the “innocent people of King’s Landing”, everybody is talking about so much. Rewatch his trial scene in Season 4, his conversations with Varys and what he told Shae after the battle of the Blackwater when she practically begged him to leave Westeros with her…
I sincerely apologize what I wrote about Sansa in this comment section before. Yes, she learned a great deal from Littlefinger and Cersei. Yes, there are many resemblances, but she is a Stark, she was always Stark. The pack survives!
After a wake up call from Apollo (Thanks again! Really!), a rewatch and waaaayyyy too much thinking about this, I changed my mind. This episode hit me with the power of a sledgehammer several times deep into my guts before it ripped out my already broken heart and trampled all over it. Judging from the 600+ comments on this post alone. I was not alone in this. Which makes this pretty much the best piece of TV/movie I have ever seen in my life. And before anyone asks: Yes, I am serious.
I never ever had such a deep, intense reaction to anything I have ever seen on screen (and it only happened twice reading something).
And this is kind of the point. Every writer, filmmaker, painter, artist or creator of anything could just hope for such a reaction to something they do.
You can call the showrunners and GRRM whatever you like, accuse them of anything (although quite frankly, the hatred and the abuse thrown upon them is getting annoying!), but if you have such a reaction to something they created, than they know sure as hell what they do.
And if this is not the third stage of grief, negotiating, but this goes into the direction I now think it does, than I bow to the three brilliant wizards of storytelling. Scratch the if-part. I bow to them in any case.
Yes, I also believe that Tyrion may be playing both queens. As I mentioned before, he is clever and has never stopped being clever. In my opinion, all his so-called “stupid” decisions in regard to Daenerys’ losses were not stupid or unwise at all – they were planned to benefit him in the end.
In consideration of Euron’s ambush in the last episode, it seems apparent that there was a traitor(s) at the council meeting who knew the battle plan and informed Cersei/Euron. The same thing happened when Euron attacked Yara and the Sand Snakes. I think it’s safe to speculate that Daenerys has a traitor in her midst. Tyrion? Varys? Both? I guess we will find out soon enough if this is true or not.
Well, if I were going to betray someone and set up an attack, I wouldn’t be stupid enough to be on one of the ships that I knew would be attacked. I don’t think Tyrion would either.
Renly’s Peach,
Actually, this is a smart move. If he was a traitor, no one would suspect him. Also, Tyrion is the one who specifically spoke at the council meeting in regard to how Daenerys and her dragons would travel to Dragonstone:
“If all are in agreement, John and Ser Davos will ride down the kingsroad with the northern troops and the bulk of the remaining Dothraki and Unsullied. A smaller group of us will ride to White Harbor and sail from there to Dragonstone with our queen and the dragons accompanying us from above.”
Tyrion was the one who made this plan, and it is obvious (to me at least) that there was an insider present at the council meeting. Therefore, I do not fully trust him. But, who knows? At the end, Tyrion may end up being the most trustworthy advisor ever to exist in Planetos.
Snow Crystal,
*Jon
Smart to almost get himself killed? Well, that’s one way to make yourself look innocent. 🙂 I think Tyrion values his own life more than that.
Bottom line for me though, I don’t believe Tyrion betrayed Dany by revealing their plans.
Wow, I couldn’t agree less with the Vulture ones…x-p
I don’t believe Tyrion is playing both sides at all. You can see he wants to believe in Dany but equally can see her dark side. With Cersei he has a low opinion but there is still a part of him which loves his family. By that I see only some internal conflict no scheming.
Thanks LL well I have arrived in Kissimmee and our villa does not have HBO neither does my Sky go work. I am thinking to try nowtv as an option but if you have alternatives let me know and I can post an email adddress or twitter handle maybe.
Whoever the traitor is, I don’t think they expected Euron to attack the ships. Hopefully this person got a wake up call to just how insane Euron is and how he can turn on a dime and go after anyone. I don’t like the BS answer the writers gave about the ambush. How could Daeny forget? That doesn’t make any sense. So I hope they either clear that up in the next episode.
Jon Snowed,
Well, crud. Kissimmee isn’t exactly CLOSE, and I’m in the NorthEast Orlando Area, but I hear tell that a bar in Maitland has a rocking watch crowd. I also understand a bar in the UCF Woodbury Road area might suffice.
I hope this gets to you in time. I don’t do the Twitter thing, either. I wish I could figure out a better way to communicate… ForTheThrone.