Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 Open Chat, with Night’s Cast Livestream!

Photo courtesy of HBO.

Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 4

Writers: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss
Director: David Nutter
Runtime: 1 hr 18 minutes
Content Warnings: TV-MA: Adult Content, Adult Language, Violence
Video Preview: Season 8 Episode 4 Trailer

Join us now for live discussion, filled with hopes and predictions, in advance of tonight’s episode, with the Night’s Cast, and this week’s guests Girls Gone Canon:

For those new to Watchers on the Wall or needing a refresher on the guidelines, here is our spoiler policy for open chat:

Please use spoiler coding when discussing ASOIAF/book or light filming spoilers- any material that has not aired or been discussed on Game of Thrones, and no major spoilers. Instructions on coding/showing/hiding spoilers are found at the top of the Comments section. Please do not post ANY leak spoilers in this Chat post before it airs on HBO- the comment will be deleted. Leak discussion is only permitted in our Quarantine forum.

Spoiler coding is required in the Open Chat post prior to the episode official airing (9PM EDT tonight!). After the episode has aired, you don’t have to cover spoilers from the episode anymore! Thank you for being considerate.

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Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

549 Comments

  1. Here we go!!! Still reeling a bit from last week, but after simmering for a couple of days and coming to terms for the remainder, I am excited about what tonight brings.

    I am a bit traumatised that after this there are only two more episodes of Game of Thrones left ever!!!

  2. Drogon05,

    Maaaan, I think I may have gotten spoiled on something because someone liked some assholes rant on Twitter. Off all social media now and hunkering down for the arrival of the dawn. People are such douchebags 😡

  3. This season is flying by too fast! I haven’t even processed what happened in Episode 3 yet.

    My only question is… Will Arya let someone else take credit for saving the day? Or will the first half of Ep. 4 be the survivors hoisting her on their shoulders and cheering her like a winning Super Bowl QB being carried off the field by his teammates?

    And I want to see Sandor off to the side, beaming with pride.

  4. It says right up above in the post: I do not want discussion of leak spoilers. So please don’t open that door, everyone.

  5. Ten Bears:
    This season is flying by too fast! I haven’t even processed what happened in Episode 3 yet.

    My only question is… Will Arya let someone else take credit for saving the day? Or will the first half of Ep. 4 be the survivors hoisting her on their shoulders and cheering her like a winning Super Bowl QB being carried off the field by his teammates?

    And I want to see Sandor off to the side, beaming with pride.

    I wonder if that scene from the preview where Dany raises her glass is her going, “Here’s to the tiny ninja who’s acronym I never remember, cheers for saving the day!” And everyone cheering her raucously. That, or just a general, “Hey, we didn’t die!!!”

  6. I’ve been frantically reading WotW articles and comments all weekend trying to catch up on everything in advance of tonight’s episode, feel quite drained and tired now but I’ll still stay up to 2am in order to watch it.

    Must admit I’m going in with fairly low expectations after the main event last week this feels like a quiet before the storm episode before it kicks off in Kings Landing. I’m expecting some drama on what happens next, will anyone go South in support of Dany? How will the fact that Jon is the rightful heir play out? Will Bronn turn up with his crossbow and kill one of the Lannister brothers? Will Varys switch allegiance to Jon if his heritage becomes public knowledge? I pray the following don’t happen a) Jon doesn’t just give up his heritage and follow Dany like a lapdog b) the North don’t suddenly proclaim her Queen (she’s earnt respect but not devotion by this point) and c) Dany doesn’t suddenly clone an army having seen them almost entirely wiped out last week.

    I have a feeling from the pics Cersei is bunkering down and going to use human shields but now Dany no longer has an army of sorts she will go full fire and blood, especially with no Jorah or Jon around to calm her down.

  7. I don’t feel the dread that I felt last week, but I do feel nervous and excited.

  8. It definitely feels like there’s some other shoe that has to drop.

    Possible twists.

    Mad Queen Dany

    The Golden Company is secretly under the command of Varys

    Arya’s not done wearing others’ faces and doing murder things yet.

    Elephants?

    Basically, I know nothing. I’m less anxious than I was for the big battle against AOTD, but that just makes me more nervous. Like it feels the same as way back in season one when I hadn’t read the books or seen spoilers and I was nervous for Ned but didn’t really think he was going to be executed. Until he was.

    I’m also starting to wonder, when the dust settles in the final episode, are they going to let us know who gets all the lands and titles? Right now, Dorne, The Reach and the Stormlands are all without a survivor member of their ruling families. Unless you count Gendry for the latter. So, what’s going to happen there? Am I the only caring about this? I know if the books ever get finished, GRRM will give an exhaustive run down of all this stuff. I’m not sure the show will touch on it though.

  9. Whats up with this season leaking? That makes me sad.

    Anyway, i have no idea what’s going to happen now.

  10. I’m looking forward to this one. I feel like we’re supposed to think this is going to be another calm before the next storm, but this is a loooong episode and I can’t help but wonder where Bronn is.

  11. Waaahhh!!! My wife is out of town, which means I cannot watch this until later this week. (We consider watching Thrones, Doctor Who or American Gods without the other to be one very small step below adultery….)

    Ah, the things we do for love. (“Like walking in the rain and the snow…”)

  12. Miss Stark,

    Miss Stark,

    Bronn surely has to show up this episode, but will he really kill one of the Lannister brothers? It will be huge if he does and he surely won’t survive the episode. The thing is we are at the end game now and this is coming from GRRM which makes me believe Bronn won’t go through with it or will fail trying at best.

  13. Dee Stark:
    Whats up with this season leaking? That makes me sad.

    Anyway, i have no idea what’s going to happen now.

    You know, once might be accidental. But it’s getting more newsworthy when an episode hasn’t leaked. Perhaps this is the biggest spoiler of all, that HBO itself is the one doing the spoiling to drum up attention.

  14. Che,

    “Here’s to the tiny ninja who’s acronym I never remember, cheers for saving the day!”

    _______
    😁
    Oh, and I wouldn’t mind a little Arya-Dany bonding.

  15. Dee Stark,

    This happened every other year, too. It happens to Doctor Who and a lot of other programs with global distributions. It could be hardcore fans going out of their way to get the show. However, a simpler explanation is that when a show has a global distribution, then every outlet has to avoid accidentally making it available early: and with that many outlets, the probability of everyone non failing is low even if the probability of any one outlet failing is low. (Look at it this way: if every outlet has a 99% chance of not failing, and if there are 50 outlets, then there should be an accidental early release two weeks in five.)

  16. I forgot that tomorrow is a holiday in the UK. I was planning to sleep normally, take my kid to school, and come home to watch at a sensible hour; staying up last week ended up being crippling as I couldn’t get to sleep at all afterwards!

    I’m assuming watching with a not quite 5 year old is poor parenting…

  17. Are they going to use Littlefinger’s jetpack again? 😆

    I’m anxious about what’s going to happen but: I wonder how the Frey girls and women are doing. Same for Edmure & Robin. They are probably not going to appear anymore, are they? (same for the Reeds)

  18. You know, I was thinking back to what Alliser Thorne said to Jon before he was hung, that he was going to get to rest but Jon would be fighting their wars forever, and it got me thinking what if Jon survives and takes the iron throne, but doesn’t die for a really long time like Melisandre. That he has to endure watching loved one after loved one die, even his own children. That would be something bittersweet to me.

    But then I look at what Melisandre said to Arya when Beric, that he had served his purpose and was now free to die. It got me thinking what if Jon was only resurrected to father a Targaryen heir? That would mean he’s vulnerable as soon as Dany gets pregnant. Or as soon as he gets his future wife pregnant if he Dany doesn’t get pregnant. But for all we know, she might already be pregnant, and his usefulness to the lord of light is already at an end.

  19. Cryptkeeper: You know, once might be accidental. But it’s getting more newsworthy when an episode hasn’t leaked. Perhaps this is the biggest spoiler of all, that HBO itself is the one doing the spoiling to drum up attention.

    Yes, I actually consider them to be “soft” releases, not leaks.

    The first was North America, second in Europe, this one from Asia – perhaps we will have Latin America and North America again before this ends.

    Previous seasons they learned that leaks actually pump up the excitement. Each week the leak happens on the Sunday about the same time.

  20. Interested in what the episode title for this one will be. As for the episode, I’m not sure what to expect. Can’t say I’m too excited about KL though. Not yet at least. KL needs something extra. The GC’s are window dressing right now and Strickland is an afterthought. And of course YMMV on Euron. They really need to give us some more Aegon fallout. Nobody knows yet besides Sam, Bran, AeJon and Dany. Sansa and Arya better find out tonight.

    Side note on Bran: I really need to see him do something major. I’m interested in where his arc goes now.

  21. Miss Stark:
    I’m looking forward to this one. I feel like we’re supposed to think this is going to be another calm before the next storm, but this is a loooong episode and I can’t help but wonder where Bronn is.

    Picking out furnishings for his new castle. Maybe a new audio system and the like.

  22. I’m also starting to wonder, when the dust settles in the final episode, are they going to let us know who gets all the lands and titles?Right now, Dorne, The Reach and the Stormlands are all without a survivor member of their ruling families.Unless you count Gendry for the latter.So, what’s going to happen there?Am I the only caring about this?I know if the books ever get finished, GRRM will give an exhaustive run down of all this stuff.I’m not sure the show will touch on it though.

    Also not anxious as last week. And now quite happy the NK threat is over. I don’t like horror unless it’s only a suggested threat.
    I have in my mind sorted through who gets which region, but of course, I was mostly wrong in all my theories about ep 3.
    Seems Gendry will get Stormlands and that lets Arya stay closer to her bro in KL, right? And she’ll get the Hound as her family guard.
    Sansa & Tyrion (really thought she’d get Gendry, but now see there was no time for development)… they’d stay in KL as Hand to J&D? That leaves only Bran at Winterfell, at least until more generation of babies to populate the castle as heirs.
    Jamie & Brienne would have his Casterly Rock.
    Bronn (if he doesn’t do treachery) would have the reach.
    Sam, his own home, but also Maester at KL.
    Tormund would get a northern castle, maybe the Umbers?

    But then, who gets Riverlands & Dorne? Who’s left in position of lording over a region? I suppose Sansa would lord over Riverlands from KL, as it’s closer and that’s her mother’s homeland.

    Ahh, you’re probably right, no time for D&D to lay that all out. Really, there’s just not enough worthy people to lord over this land!

  23. Wimsey,

    Its sad that it leaks that way!

    Also, how is American Gods?? I have read the book but didn’t watch season 1 because i was waiting for at least a season 2. Is it any good?

  24. Jon Snowed,

    True, but it could be a case of similar but not identical. I could see him telling them that Cersei hires someone to take out Jaime and Tyrion, and the show runners could have decided to give that role to Bronn. It just feels like that crossbow isn’t going to lead to anything good.

  25. Maybe focus on the new episode and not the leaks? That will reduce the likelihood of people trying to spoil you guys, and the amount of moderating we have to do on your posts- that’s why so many of your posts are winding up held for moderation. People like to try and spoil you all deliberately in comments.

  26. Things I’d like to see in the back 3:

    1) Everyone acknowledging what a badass Arya is

    2) I really want to know what Varys heard in the fire when they threw his… stuff… in there

    3) Does Bran have more of a purpose than being bait for the NK? What is it??

    4) For some younger sibling to kill Cersei, even if it’s the baby in her belly. I’ve long thought she’d die giving birth to a dwarf. BUT, Ghost is the littlest little brother out there – the runt of the litter even 😉

    5) Hot Piiiiiiiiiiiiiiie (said in Oprah shout)

    6) Dany NOT taking the throne – would love to see her forsake her claim for some happiness behind the red door.

    7) Tyrion saving the day in KL/not betraying Dany – they’ve emasculated him enough.

    8) Reiteration that prophecies mean nothing – by Dany getting pregnant. I think that’s why they wanted Arya to kill the NK. To show us real quick that prophecy’s mean nothing right before the show’s longest running prophecy is disproven.

    9) Bronn loses somehow. Don’t do it D&D.

    10) I don’t want some idiot like Euron or Robin Arryn taking the throne. Give it to Davos. He deserves it more than anyone.

    11) Don’t let Sansa betray her family. She and Nestor Royce have obviously been cooking up something and pre-show interviews with Sophie have mentioned several things that haven’t happened yet. Sansa, as RuPaul would say, don’t f*ck it up.

  27. jennyemelie:
    I forgot that tomorrow is a holiday in the UK.I was planning to sleep normally, take my kid to school, and come home to watch at a sensible hour; staying up last week ended up being crippling as I couldn’t get to sleep at all afterwards!

    I’m assuming watching with a not quite 5 year old is poor parenting…

    I forgot about the bank holiday tomorrow too, but I felt relieved because I was going to stay up till 2am regardless. Now I get to bug my husband to get up with our three so I can catch a few hours extra sleep instead of the school run. Victory for me!

  28. So i just rewatched “The Long Night” (which is a faboulous episode if you simply accept it for what it is!) and i just can’t figure out what exactly Jon is trying to achieve in the second half. Someone Help me out?

  29. See now, Grey Worm and Messandai could take Dorne… though he’s a servant and not a lord…

  30. Dee Stark:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    Do you think there is more for Bran?

    There has to be. Or I like to think there is. What about you? His arc for so long has been about the NK, I really don’t know where he goes now with things shifting to KL. I mean they wouldn’t take him to KL with them would they? I guess he’ll be the designated “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell”?

  31. One thing for sure, they might have to vacate Winterfell for a while, it’s kinda damaged and there’s a big stinking dead dragon in the middle of it. And I wouldn’t want to be anywhere inside with the stench of all those rotted corpses. Maybe this is the opportunity to pay the Reeds a visit.

  32. Dee Stark:
    Wimsey,

    Its sad that it leaks that way!

    Also, how is American Gods?? I have read the book but didn’t watch season 1 because i was waiting for at least a season 2. Is it any good?

    I liked the book a lot but I wasn’t impressed with the season 1. I thought it was just “okay.” Having said that, I haven’t even started season 2. I’ve heard very little good about it or how the production went for it. I do know the viewership plummeted during season 2 incrementally to the lowest since the series premiere. That doesn’t give it much hope in my eyes.

  33. Ten Bears:
    Che,

    “Here’s to the tiny ninja who’s acronym I never remember, cheers for saving the day!”

    _______
    😁
    Oh, and I wouldn’t mind a little Arya-Dany bonding.

    Me too!! Would love to see a scene between the two of them. I’d also love a Stark scene between Jon, Arya, Bran and Sansa (or maybe ditch Bran if he’s going to bring the mood down with his creepiness). I need a Stark scene.

    PS – I just spotted my who’s/whose grammar mistake in that quote 😬 unforgivable!

  34. Dee Stark:
    Che,

    I always wondered why they are called “bank holidays”

    I have absolutely no idea about the origin of them, but the name comes from banks being closed on these days. Shops used to be too, but now most are open on bank holidays. It’s just another name for public holidays. It is pretty weird why we keep calling them bank holidays. Weird Britishisms.

  35. See now, Grey Worm and Messandai could take Dorne… though he’s a servant and not a lord…

    Lisa Lanzendörfer:
    So i just rewatched “The Long Night” (which is a faboulous episode if you simply accept it for what it is!) and ijust can’t figure out what exactly Jon is trying to achieve in the second half. Someone Help me out?

    Well, his mission is to get the NK who is being lured to Bran! That’s all. First the NK snuck up and attacked him, then they fell off their rides and the dead got in his way, then the dead dragon blocked his path.

  36. Clob: I liked the book a lot but I wasn’t impressed with the season 1.I thought it was just “okay.”Having said that, I haven’t even started season 2.I’ve heard very little good about it or how the production went for it.I do know the viewership plummeted during season 2 incrementally to the lowest since the series premiere.That doesn’t give it much hope in my eyes.

    I thought Season 1 was ok, but Season 2 was abysmal. After I watched the last episode i didn’t even realize it was the finale. The show just hasn’t clicked for me. Haven’t read the book. I’ll still tune in for Season 3 and see where it goes.

  37. I’m sitting this one out, guys, but am interested to see people’s discussion. Ttyl! 🙂

  38. Clob,

    hmmm interesting… should i even bother?

    Does season 1 cover the book, and then season 2 is more than the book?

  39. Sue the Fury,

    Must suck for the moderators (which includes you I think) because I’m sure you’d love to enjoy the episode unspoiled as well.

  40. Still hoping for a Sansa/Hound scene. One of the last remaining scenes I want to see besides Sansa/Cersei and maybe a AeJon/Ghost scene.

  41. What I love about tonight is now I have no idea what’s going to happen. Most of my bigger theories were scorched. While that was mildly annoying, it’s nice to not be so invested in them anymore.

    Here’s a few thoughts for tonight and the rest of the season:

    I hope Bran can go back to being somewhat human and have a bigger role to play. I can’t imagine him going north to find a tree to rot in.

    I hope whatever Cercei has “planned” for the Dragon Queen is worthy of the hype (and I hope it’s foiled).

    I hope it’s not Jon and Dany sharing the same old Throne at the end.

    I hope Jon’s parentage does have real impact on the outcome of the story and doesn’t get pushed aside.

    I hope Tormund, The Hound, Bronn, Brienne, Sansa, Tyrion, Jaime and Captain Strickland get some lovin’.

    I hope Arya is not punished by the Many-Faced God, and gets more quality time with Gendry.

    I hope Yara teams up with Dany again. They had good chemistry.

  42. Jack Bauer 24,

    I’d also like to see Jon and Ghost interact. Maybe a scene where Jon tells Arya and Sansa who he is, but Ghost is there to remind him of his Stark side.

  43. Squirrel:
    So i just rewatched “The Long Night” (which is a faboulous episode if you simply accept it for what it is!) and ijust can’t figure out what exactly Jon is trying to achieve in the second half. Someone Help me out?

    It was a fabulous episode. Season 8 is going well so far, I hope they can keep it up.

    I think Jon was trying to get to Bran but got into difficulties in the chaos. He ran in several ways/paths to try to get to the godswood. He ended up yelling at the dragon in frustration or maybe was trying to make it fly away. (Jon the DragonScreamer) Good lad really tried but it was not his day. He was a hero though and a good man of the watch.

  44. Laura: Does Bran have more of a purpose than being bait for the NK? What is it??

    Lots of great topics to consider but I’ll focus on one.
    Could the CotF’s wrath still be in play? For a while now I have thought that both the NK and the 3ER are products of the CotF, possibly to counteract one another or to confuse the humans. The 3ER/Bran may yet be tied to more suspicious activity and twists as the battle looms near KL.

    Gut feeling…Those cascading floorboards in the title sequence, which have led from the Wall to WF, into the WF’s crypts, then into the throne room of KL, seem to indicate that we’re not done with the dead yet.

    If Bran does prove to be another NK, this may be the predicted bittersweet ending between Ice and Fire…with Jon caught in the middle…and Cersei/Euron/GC providing the deadly old school warfare and distractions.

    Looking forward to Act II of this anxious three act arc.

  45. The biggest remaining question I have after that battle is where are the rest of the Dothraki? I went back to Blood of my Blood and Daenerys kills 10 Khals. That means she united 10 khalasars. Drogo’s alone was said to have anywhere between 40,000 and 100,000 screamers, depending on who you asked. Assuming his was the largest, fine, maybe the rest are in the 10,000 to 20,000 range. We’re still looking at somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 Dothraki she brought to Meereen. I can buy that she wasn’t able to transport all of them and some were left behind to help the Second Sons defend the Bay of Dragons. Even if she only took half of them to Westeros, where are they? That charge last week looked like maybe 10,000 riders. It wasn’t even close to the size of the charge she made on the Lannister host in the Reach. Did she leave some behind in the Crownlands? Are they still on the Kingsroad and just didn’t make it to Winterfell in time for the battle?

    I fully don’t expect an answer and they probably just stealth scaled them down to make the easy defeat plausible (also disappeared half the Knights of the Vale and all their horses) so the fight with the dead would be scarier, but man, way to do my boys dirty, writing crew. I’d really like to see some Dothraki still around. Those guys gave up all of their history and culture to follow the Stallion Who Mounts the World across the poison sea, hopefully not to all die without even winning her the throne.

  46. Jack Bauer 24: He distracted Viserion for Arya.

    hahhahaaa! Wishful thinking but not true from what we could see on the screen. Unless someone said this in an interview as added information, it did not happen.

  47. Jack Bauer 24: He distracted Viserion for Arya.

    I’m not sure we’ll get more explanation on what happened, but I would like to know if Jon saw Arya. Would he think she could kill the Night King? She told him she only had used Needle a few times – does he realized what she is and what she can? Or, if he spotted her running would he assume she was just try to hide from Wights?

    I wish last episode we got a scene where Jon said something about Arya and Sansa being involved in the battle. Maybe he could have told Davos to make sure both Arya and Sansa went to the crypts if the defenses started failing. He would know Sansa didn’t belong in a siege, but does he know Arya can handle herself in a fight?

    I’m hoping that Arya gets some acknowledgement. Davos saw her kickin’ butt, but most of the other characters weren’t around.

    For this episode, if I could write any opening scene it would be a severely injured Ghost limping back to Winterfell surrounded by Nymeria and her pack. Once they reach the castle, Nymeria and her pack take off. Could we get some of the dragon CGI budget for some direwolves please?

  48. Laura,

    “I think that’s why they wanted Arya to kill the NK. To show us real quick that prophecy’s mean nothing right before the show’s longest running prophecy is disproven..”

    ________
    But was it really disproven? Arya as the Princess that was Promised was in plain sight all along, starting with Catelyn’s dual promises to Walder Frey for bridge access.

    Azor Ahai aka Warrior of Light is a different guy.

  49. Ten Bears:
    Laura,

    “I think that’s why they wanted Arya to kill the NK. To show us real quick that prophecy’s mean nothing right before the show’s longest running prophecy is disproven..”

    ________But was it really disproven? Arya as the Princess that was Promised was in plain sight all along, starting with Catelyn’s dual promises to Walder Frey for bridge access.

    Azor Ahai aka Warrior of Light is a different guy.

    I don’t think she matches much of the Prince who was promised prophesy from the books. There’s also the woods witch who says the PTWP comes from Aerys’ line – which is why Rhaegar goes on a crazy quest because first he thinks it’s him and then he thinks it’s his son Aegon.

    I think the prophesy from the book will turn out to be corrupted or resolved not in a way that we expect (as in not the one to destroy the AOTD), but I don’t think it’s pointing to Arya.

  50. Stacia: I’m hoping that Arya gets some acknowledgement. Davos saw her kickin’ butt, but most of the other characters weren’t around.

    I hope she does too.
    I thought Jon would have witnessed her fighting skills before the war. When he hadn’t I figured he would during, and didn’t. I could have used a shot of him watching her from Rhaegal’s back, much like Davos saw her. Having said that, I don’t think it’s going to be much of a secret anymore. She not only survived the entire battle while fighting and killed the NK, but now Davos KNOWS she can fight, along with Brienne and Sansa having a pretty good idea. I’ll be waiting for a rather humorous line from Davos to Jon/others about Arya’s skills.

  51. Speculation not spoilers…Jon still won’t let Dany reign fire on Kings Landing so they must try a plan. Backfires and she goes in full force…but when do we find out shes pregnant?

    Enough with putting the smith on the throne but I do hope Gendry is legitimized and they are keepong Davos around to mentor him like a son so he can become a Lord…or he’s going to die protecting him.

  52. Stacia:

    I’m hoping that Arya gets some acknowledgement.Davos saw her kickin’ butt, but most of the other characters weren’t around.

    Bran was right there, so I think we’re good. 🙂

  53. Definitely looking forward to characters reacting to Arya’s big save! I think there should be a pretty good possibility of an Arya/Dany scene, and Jon wondering how the heck his lil’ sis offed the NK. (And no, he did not distract Viserion so that she could run into the Godswood. FFS..).

  54. Mother of a Dragon,

    I think Jon will certainly advise against it. I thought she would be pregnant but now I’m not so sure. Maybe they were confirming she can’t get pregnant but Jorah’s words to Jon meant he would have to carry the line? But then again his swimmers might not work considering he died.

    I don’t think Gendry would take the throne even if he is legitimised. Would seem strange to put a character on the throne who disappeared for three seasons.

  55. No one has really spoken of the possibility, but what if there are more dragons? In the opening credits this season, there’s a red comet in one of the images, which is supposed to mean dragons among other things. Supposedly, the credits are supposed to tell everything that’s going to happen if we pay close enough attention and decipher what each image means. Maybe more eggs will turn up.

  56. Cryptkeeper,

    I thought those were past events. The Wall falling, the Red Wedding and Daenerys birthing her dragons under the red comet.

  57. Ghostgirl:
    Cryptkeeper,

    I thought those were past events. The Wall falling, the Red Wedding and Daenerys birthing her dragons under the red comet.

    It could be past, but it also could be still to come. I’ve always wondered if mating would happen between the dragons at some point anyway, but other eggs might still exist too.

  58. Ghostgirl:
    Mother of a Dragon,

    I think Jon will certainly advise against it. I thought she would be pregnant but now I’m not so sure. Maybe they were confirming she can’t get pregnant but Jorah’s words to Jon meant he would have to carry the line? But then again his swimmers might not work considering he died.

    I don’t think Gendry would take the throne even if he is legitimised. Would seem strange to put a character on the throne who disappeared for three seasons.

    I don’t think enough time has passed for Dany to discover she is pregnant yet. Jon said it would take them two weeks to get to Winterfell. They had sex on the way. Let’s say it was the first night and it happened to be at the right time in her cycle for her to conceive, she’d still be (around) two weeks away from suspecting she’s pregnant if she discovers she’s late. She also didn’t realise she was pregnant with Rhaego until she was several months in, so I don’t think she’s really that aware of what her cycle’s up to. If Dany getting pregnant is going to happen, I imagine it will come into play later.

  59. Squirrel:
    So i just rewatched “The Long Night” (which is a faboulous episode if you simply accept it for what it is!) and ijust can’t figure out what exactly Jon is trying to achieve in the second half. Someone Help me out?

    What he is trying to achieve is getting to the Godswood to protect Bran and kill the NK.

    What he is actually achieving is nothing.

    And no, he is not distracting the dragon for Arya.

  60. Ten Bears,

    At this point, I look at the PwwP prophecy like I used to look at my old doggo. He was a good boy. But we had zero idea what breeds he was. So we asked the vet once, and his response was “he can be whatever he wants to be.”

    The Prince Who Was Promised is whoever the hell you want it to be.

  61. Enharmony1625:
    Definitely looking forward to characters reacting to Arya’s big save! I think there should be a pretty good possibility of an Arya/Dany scene, and Jon wondering how the heck his lil’ sis offed the NK. (And no, he did not distract Viserion so that she could run into the Godswood. FFS..).

    Yeah, where did this “distraction” explanation come from? I did not see any indication of that.
    In fact, Jon looked to be pinned down by undead Viserion and only ducked out a few times to yell at him. (I thought he might try to stab him with Longclaw – or do something – but no…)

  62. Nick20: What he is trying to achieve is getting to the Godswood to protect Bran and kill the NK.

    What he is actually achieving is nothing.

    And no, he is not distracting the dragon for Arya.

    He yells “go”.

  63. Cryptkeeper:
    No one has really spoken of the possibility, but what if there are more dragons? In the opening credits this season, there’s a red comet in one of the images, which is supposed to mean dragons among other things. Supposedly, the credits are supposed to tell everything that’s going to happen if we pay close enough attention and decipher what each image means. Maybe more eggs will turn up.

    No-one has spoken of it as it is unspeakable.

    More dragons??? – Geez, I got to DSP a long time ago.

    (DSP – dragon saturation point!)

  64. I’ve started a rewatch of E3. Still just as tense the second time around.

  65. Mango: Maybe, to get the dragon to go…as in fly away??

    As soon as he yells “go” it transitions to the WW’s hair moving and Arya runs in…

    Just let me believe that’s what AeJon was doing 😁

  66. Che,

    I know not much time has passed which is why I’m not sure it will come into play. Unless they have a time jump. If they were two weeks to White Harbour Dany should have missed her period by then. Another week to Winterfell on horseback (roughly).

    I thought she woud have the child by the end of the series and another 8 months is quite a big time jump for the next three eps. Unless they just tag it on the end which is possible.

  67. Ten Bears: Yeah, where did this “distraction” explanation come from? I did not see any indication of that.In fact, Jon looked to be pinned down by undead Viserion and only ducked out a few times to yell at him. (I thought he might try to stab him with Longclaw – or do something – but no…)

    I get the shouting in frustration thing; I do, he was pinned down and all he wanted was to sacrifice himself to kill the NK. It’s Jon after all. But why not at least try to stab that damned undead dragon? Why go out yelling at it? Go out stabbing it, Jon! Come on! These Stark boys need to learn how to stab and zigzag. Arya could teach her brothers a thing or two.

  68. Jack Bauer 24: He yells “go”.

    There are no CC or subtitles that say “go.” Other than “[YELLS]” I’ve only seen “NO” while watching reaction videos. Don’t buy the theory.

  69. Jack Bauer 24: As soon as he yells “go” it transitions to the WW’s hair moving and Arya runs in…

    Just let me believe that’s what AeJon was doing

    I fully understand.

    Hmmmm….It was sort of possible given the angle of the light that Jon could spot her out of the corner of his eye if he squinted just so….these things happen at odd times on some days. Who knows?

  70. I trust Kit when he says this episode is Shakespearean and that it is one of his favorites. The AeJon bomb drop has to finally happen. That’s really what I’m most interested in. To me, that’s where so much of the endgame drama can develop from.

  71. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I trust Kit when he says this episode is Shakespearean and that it is one of his favorites. The AeJon bomb drop has to finally happen. That’s really what I’m most interested in. To me, that’s where so much of the endgame drama can develop from.

    Same. I really want and need this to happen in 804. Unless they’re saving this for the finale, but that may be too late.

  72. Does anyone have a clue where the last trailer scene with Cersey, Euron, Mountain and I guess Quiburn is takin place? I don’t think this is in KL.

  73. Wimsey:
    Waaahhh!!! My wife is out of town, which means I cannot watch this until later this week.(We consider watching Thrones, Doctor Who or American Gods without the other to be one very small step below adultery….)

    Ah, the things we do for love.(“Like walking in the rain and the snow…”)

    Muahaha! I know the feeling. Did the same with Star Trek Discovery too… 😀

  74. Thoughts upon rewatching.

    Since Mel clearly knew how everything in the battle was going to go down, she would’ve known that the Dothraki fire arakh thing was going to fail. Did she send them to die on purpose? Maybe she saw that there will be a dance of the dragons and she wanted to take away some of team Dany’s people? Or maybe I’m overthinking it.

    If taking out the NK is how the living won, is that how they won at last during the long night? If that’s the case, the NK must be like Sauron or The First from Buffy. The evil is still and will eventually rise again. I’m wondering if the final scene will be a blue eye opening in the far north?

  75. Hi guys, I just want to say that, it’s been a while since I’ve commented on this site. I’ve been on reddit a lot and I’m done with it now. Every GOT related sub has become so toxic that the all negativity surrounding the show even got to me, it’s started to become depressing really. I’ve been loving the show so far, and loved episode 3, my favourite battle sequence so far. Of course I had issues with how they treated the all prince that was promissed thing. Even though I love Arya I still don’t get why they did that. Stil, Arya beating “death” it’s poetic. So I can live with that… Anyway I just wanted to join all the positivity of this website again. And I’m glad you guys are enjoying so far as well. Now our watch begins! Good luck for the episode guys.

  76. What I’d like to see in this episode:

    Before moving on to Cersei, people giving each other due credit for what they’ve done. Sansa and Jon for Dany, Dany for Arya and Jon, etc.

    Someone(s) heads south to find and rally Edmure Tully and/or Robyn Arryn (Edmure preferably).

    As much Braime as possible.

    Some conflict between the Northerners about heading south. Hopefully some of the Starks on each side. I suspect Sansa will side with Dany in the end since she wants to take out Cersei too.

  77. E3… Even after watching it multiple times this week I still think of new questions. This time I’m wondering how it was possible the Dothraki weren’t able to light up many wight with their flaming arahks leaving some fires burning? If they did are we suppose to believe that the wight doused those fires?

  78. Clob:
    E3… Even after watching it multiple times this week I still think of new questions.This time I’m wondering how it was possible the Dothraki weren’t able to light up many wight with their flaming arahks leaving some fires burning?If they did are we suppose to believe that the wight doused those fires?

    Sometimes I think the simple answer is just “dramatic effect”. All the lights going out just looked cool and when everything went dark it brought on even more dread and nervousness. If all of the lights weren’t extinguished it wouldn’t have had that same effect.

  79. Che,

    Besides, if Arya was anywhere near undead Viserion, she would’ve flung three DG spearheads right between his eyes (with the skills she demonstrated to Gendry).

    I really don’t know what Jon was trying to accomplish there.

  80. Frank:
    Does anyone have a clue where the last trailer scene with Cersey, Euron, Mountain and I guess Quiburn is takin place? I don’t think this is in KL.

    Impossible to tell. I’d assume on some patio or portion of the Red Keep, but I don’t know.

  81. Squirrel,

    Jon was trying to get to the Godswood. He kept getting attacked by wights and Viserion. I think Jon believed all was lost by the time the dragon had him cornered. All he could do was scream at Viserion in utter despair.

  82. Where I’m interesting in next episode:
    – will the north go behind dany. Or will there be a rift.
    – how will the aegon bomb resolve.
    – cersei’s plan for dany.
    – bronn
    – the title sequence

    Where I’m not really interesting in:
    – weddings and baby stuff. I love weddings and baby stuff but feels to cliche for me, every show ends with the baby plot line. The only baby I’m interesting in is that of cersei because I think something is off with it.

    Jack Bauer 24: He yells “go”.

    The official hbo subtitles says he said the following:
    *screaming*

    So no he didn’t saw Arya, and he didn’t say go to her. And I’m wondering how people hear the word go in that scene.

  83. Pigeon: Bran was right there, so I think we’re good.

    But Bran doesn’t always explaining things. The assumption from the survivors would be Jon did the hero thing and made it to the Night King. All the characters Jon ran past on his way to the Godswood- leaving them near death like Sam would be much happier to believe Jon killed the Night King than Jon yelled at a Wight Dragon. There’s likely to be more concern over helping the injured and finding the missing than actually telling anyone what happened in the Godswood.

    Pigeon: Bran was right there, so I think we’re good.

    But Bran doesn’t always explaining things. The assumption from the survivors would be Jon did the hero thing and made it to the Night King. All the characters Jon ran past on his way to the Godswood- leaving them near death like Sam would be much happier to believe Jon killed the Night King than Jon yelled at a Wight Dragon. There’s likely to be more concern over helping the injured and finding the missing than actually telling anyone what happened in the Godswood.

    Ten Bears:
    Che,

    Besides, if Arya was anywhere near undead Viserion, she would’ve flung three DG spearheads right between his eyes (with the skills she demonstrated to Gendry).

    I really don’t know what Jon was trying to accomplish there.

    This is my biggest issue with the battle plan – how did they plan to take out Viserion? They know he’s a threat. And all it takes it arrows. There needed to be so many more archers in place. It’s not like that would be expensive to film. Something needed to delay Jon, but that could have been White Walkers raising more and more dead.

  84. Che,

    I think it was frustration for working years to save humanity. And he tried to end the nk there. I think he screamed because he felt that he failed in that moment and humanity would fall.

    Or maybe he was trying to talk to the dragon xd

    weirwoodtreehugger,

    I think our heroes needed to look like losing. So that the nk could be cocky and come out of hiding. If the dothraki would have lived and killed a lot of undead. The nk would maybe flee. And just let his army do the work. And he would have gone south past winterfell.

    I think it was all in the plan.

  85. Stacia,

    I hope they’d understand they’re all dead eventually if he helps them or not if someone doesn’t get to the NK. Jon didn’t think anyone else was going to be able to.

  86. Kevin1989,

    “Where I’m not really interesting in:
    – weddings and baby stuff. I love weddings and baby stuff but feels to cliche for me, every show ends with the baby plot line. The only baby I’m interesting in is that of cersei because I think something is off with it.”

    ___________
    Me neither. And I’m not interested in Cersei’s alleged baby either; even if she’s preggers by Jaime, there’s no way psycho Euron lets that baby come to term.

    The worst part? Now we’ve got three potential contestants for IncestBastardBabyBowl: Tyvek Lannister + Visenya Targaryen + Eddard Baratheon. (Yes, I’m sure Gendry’s “seed is strong.”)

  87. Adam:
    The biggest remaining question I have after that battle is where are the rest of the Dothraki? I went back to Blood of my Blood and Daenerys kills 10 Khals. That means she united 10 khalasars. Drogo’s alone was said to have anywhere between 40,000 and 100,000 screamers, depending on who you asked. Assuming his was the largest, fine, maybe the rest are in the 10,000 to 20,000 range. We’re still looking at somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 Dothraki she brought to Meereen. I can buy that she wasn’t able to transport all of them and some were left behind to help the Second Sons defend the Bay of Dragons. Even if she only took half of them to Westeros, where are they? That charge last week looked like maybe 10,000 riders.

    I’ve been thinking about this too, and have looked around. Here’s the thing I’ve found out. Dany had about 1000 ships, and 8,000 Unsullied also came. With transporting a lot of horses too, they probably didn’t exceed 16,000 Dothraki. This is consistent with what Euron was able to bring to Cersei: 20k Golden Company with 2k horses. Let’s consider some may have been left at Dragonstone. It’s still likely that most of the Dothraki brought to Westeros were in that charge.

    However, as you point out, there’s plenty of Dothraki available that can still be transported, along with the Second Sons.

  88. Kevin1989,

    But why did NK even expose himself at all? He had a bunch of lieutenants and 100,000 zombies to take out Bran. If one lucky shot from a DG arrow or spear could hit NK and deactivate his entire army, why go out at all? I couldn’t figure that out. (Same thing with his slow walk to the end of the dock in Hardhome. One lucky shot with a DG-tipped arrow from Jon’s boat, and game over.)

    Eh. I never liked the Mothership plot anyway.

  89. Stacia: I’m not sure we’ll get more explanation on what happened, but I would like to know if Jon saw Arya.Would he think she could kill the Night King?She told him she only had used Needle a few times – does he realized what she is and what she can? Or, if he spotted her running would he assume she was just try to hide from Wights?

    I wish last episode we got a scene where Jon said something about Arya and Sansa being involved in the battle. Maybe he could have told Davos to make sure both Arya and Sansa went to the crypts if the defenses started failing. He would know Sansa didn’t belong in a siege, but does he know Arya can handle herself in a fight?

    I’m hoping that Arya gets some acknowledgement.Davos saw her kickin’ butt, but most of the other characters weren’t around.

    For this episode, if I could write any opening scene it would be a severely injured Ghost limping back to Winterfell surrounded by Nymeria and her pack. Once they reach the castle, Nymeria and her pack take off.Could we get some of the dragon CGI budget for some direwolves please?

    I felt that too, Jon is so intent on preparing for the war and his parentage, that we didn’t get any scenes with him being concerned about his family, other than Bran – who is the target… Like you said a quick discussion, a word to Davos… perhaps it is because of the shortened streamlined season – we are mostly getting scenes that are necessary, and very little filler, unless you count ep2 🙂 but a little filler is what makes us care about and love these characters, seeing them interact and have small moments of levity/friendship/love. I wish we had more Stark interactions together, small family moments, we finally have them all together, and all their conversations are implied off screen, like Arya knowing that Gendry went North of the wall with Jon, I guess Jon filled her in? but he didn’t talk to her about the wights? Jon didn’t want to worry her because he assumed she would be in the crypts with Sansa? we don’t know because it was off screen. I felt this last season with Arya and Sansa too.

    Davos will probably say something to someone who doubts her being capable, but I don’t think they will dwell on this too much. They took a heavy loss and the dead must be laid to rest. I’m sure Arya will get some credit, but it really was a group effort, everyone fought hard and everyone witnessed the awesomeness of the dragons too… that impression shouldn’t be forgotten. I think Arya will shy away from the party/ceremony type stuff – she is never in the great hall when stuff goes down – she is more like the Sandor that way, she would rather spend alone time with Gendry, or perhaps if we are lucky her family!

  90. Hugo Viegas,

    That was a great post man. Toxic is the perfect description. The Thrones related Reddit sites are unbearable this week especially. People are being so hateful and negative, it’s disheartening as a fan.

  91. Kevin1989,

    Its been scientifically proven that people have a great propensity to hear what they want to hear in certain situations. It’s the same with brain teasers and our eyes.

  92. Stacia,

    Yeah, Mr. Inappropriate Bran is more likely to tell everyone: “I saw Arya seduce Gendry. She was so beautiful.”

  93. Less than an hour to go 😃

    I’m a simple person with simple needs.

    All I’m hoping for tonight is grade A direction and storytelling, moving character moments, killer dialogue and of course, my ship to finally set sail into the sweet sweet harbour of Tarth 🦁💎.

    Some explanation from Bran about where exactly he warged off to last week would be a bonus.

  94. Stacia,

    I don’t think Jon is going to take credit for killing the Night King. It’s unlikely that we will see it on screen, as they are probably going to start the episode with the funeral pyre, but we can imagine after the AOTD turned back into corpses, Jon ran to the Godswood and found Arya and Bran as the only survivors. He’d either guess by the fact Arya is standing in a puddle of ice crystals or be told by Arya/Bran what happened. I don’t think he’d then take the credit for her kill. At the same time, I don’t see Arya basking in any glory. I think she might shut it down to be honest.

  95. viki,

    I suspect if anyone tries to minimize Arya’s fighting skills, Sandor will shut them up pretty quickly. So will Davos and Bran (if he’s not tripping).

  96. Che,

    True. Arya is not a glory-seeker.
    (To this day, nobody knows she singlehsndedly wiped out House Frey.)

  97. Looking forward to an episode where I won’t be hiding behind the cats and having heart failure from the tension, despite the fact that I deliberately didn’t watch until after it had aired and I’d been able to read exactly what happened.

    Logically I would expect this to be more like ep 2, concentrating on people’s relationships rather than action. Another calm before the storm one. Hopefully now the characters we know are down to a manageable number they won’t kill anyone just for the sake of it, but only if it furthers the story.

    Varys hasn’t really done anything so far this series so I’m expecting something from him soon, otherwise why bother having him hanging around? Jon’s parentage presumably also has to become more widely known because it has so much potential impact on Dany. I don’t think he’s ever been interested in power and would happily waive his claim to the throne, but that wouldn’t create any of the drama which is such a huge part of the show.

  98. Ten Bears:
    Laura,

    “I think that’s why they wanted Arya to kill the NK. To show us real quick that prophecy’s mean nothing right before the show’s longest running prophecy is disproven..”

    ________But was it really disproven? Arya as the Princess that was Promised was in plain sight all along, starting with Catelyn’s dual promises to Walder Frey for bridge access.

    Azor Ahai aka Warrior of Light is a different guy.

    Sorry for being confusing. I mean the longest-running prophecy in the show being that Dany’s womb is uninhabitable and she can no longer bear children unless 37 different miraculous things happen. I believe the show (maybe the books?) are dying on the hill of prophecies being generally BS. Tales Old Nans and Miri Maaz Durs all around told their charges to scare them or keep them in line whatever. Much like modern day religion 😉

    So basically I am saying Arya is not TPWWP – no one is. Or anyone can be. Doesn’t that make it more interesting? Does to me :shrug

  99. Jack Bauer 24: Same. I really want and need this to happen in 804. Unless they’re saving this for the finale, but that may be too late.

    Right! it will be interesting how all the characters react to this news… it will upend the power dynamics for all the groups… Jon still has the most going for him in terms support staff/cast.

    Jon has Sam, Davos, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Brienne & Tormund – they will be totally loyal to team AeJon – even if Sansa does a little work behind their backs, it will still be for the pack, at least as she views it.

    Dany has Grey Worm, Missandi, & Yara – it seems like they will stand loyal with Dany. With Tyrion and Varys there are already a few line drops on whether they will stay loyal to her, they haven’t known her as long and I wouldn’t say they are above a switch in loyalty.

    Cersei – surrounded by shady men with shady past and no loyalties or morals… Euron, Gregor, Bronn, Qyburn – any of them are capable of turning on her. Strickland really isn’t known to us yet, but I suspect he will just do his job, no need for him to become a major game player (I think)

    Jamie I guess I without a side as of yet, I think he will stick with his brother, see how Dany behaves and start to convince him (and Varys) that Dany might not be the best for the throne after all?

  100. Chuck8323,

    And It’s only getting worse. They all think they could’ve come up with a better story. I guess this is always going to happen with every great tv show unfortunately…

  101. Kevin1989:
    Where I’m interesting in next episode:
    – will the north go behind dany. Or will there be a rift.
    – how will the aegon bomb resolve.
    – cersei’s plan for dany.
    – bronn
    – the title sequence

    Where I’m not really interesting in:
    – weddings and baby stuff. I love weddings and baby stuff but feels to cliche for me, every show ends with the baby plot line. The only baby I’m interesting in is that of cersei because I think something is off with it.

    I see them getting behind Dany – her dragons were impressive especially during a battle, and the Northerners admire strength, plus she lost a lot and she also isn’t shy of tooting her own horn, Dany knows how to pump a crowd up and inspire them to follow her – it is one of her gifts, making speeches 🙂 I think with the people behind her, even Sansa will have to bow to the pressure, even if she still has reservations. (she will be scheming behind peoples back, or so Sophie says, so makes sense)

    I too wonder about Cersei’s plan for Dany, I hope it is more than the scorpions and has an impact (works/kinds works?) All of Cersei’s planning has to have a few good hits before she goes down!

    Bronn – who knows, it could play out so many ways… I think if a dragon goes down early he will stick with Cersei thinking she might just win in the end, otherwise I could also see him approaching Jamie/Tyrion for more money.

    I don’t mind babies and wedding stuff in eps6, maybe after a time lapse show caseing that life moves one and the ones that are left are happy or at least trying to be.

  102. Laura,

    Well, even “prophecies” based in fact get embellished, exaggerated and revised as they’re re-told throughout the millennia (and depending on who is telling it). So I figure the “prophecies” have a kernel of truth, and the rest is window dressing.

    As for Dany’s fertility: Who knows if that Miri Maaz Durs (?) was just being nasty.

  103. Hugo Viegas:
    Chuck8323,

    And It’s only getting worse. They all think they could’ve come up with a better story. I guess this is always going to happen with every great tv show unfortunately…

    I had a comment down voted into oblivion because I dared to question somebody who said that D&D didn’t understand ASOIAF and he would have been much better as writer and producer.

  104. viki,

    I really hope Sansa gets behind Dany 100%. Arguing over Northern sovereignty at this point isn’t going to endear her to a substantial segment of the audience. Dany did just make huge sacrifices to save WF and House Stark.

  105. JSchmeh: I had a comment down voted into oblivion because I dared to question somebody who said that D&D didn’t understand ASOIAF and he would have been much better as writer and producer.

    Try and make a post saying you loved “The long night” and see what happens lol

  106. JSchmeh,

    I politely tell anyone who calls “D&D hacks” and contends they can do a better job, that I am anxiously awaiting that person’s superior scripts.

    I have yet to receive a response. 🤓

  107. Last ad break before we begin! I am sooooo much more excited than I was this time last week. I actually didn’t want the episode to start and was in pre-mourning for all my favourite characters at this point.

    Bring on the Shakespearean drama!

    Happy viewing everyone!!!!

    (And please no deaths this week! Here’s looking at you Bronn!)

  108. Ten Bears:
    viki,

    I really hope Sansa gets behind Dany 100%. Arguing over Northern sovereignty at this point isn’t going to endear her to a substantial segment of the audience. Dany did just make huge sacrifices to save WF and House Stark.

    I know, but I just don’t see Sansa doing that… she still doesn’t fully trust Dany and one battle probably won’t change that, Sansa has her eye on the prize just like Dany does and won’t let it go easy… but I don’t think she will do so openly, especially if the people seem to support Dany, she will work like Littlefinger to sow seeds of doubt, maybe?

  109. Hugo Viegas,

    There has always been that section of the fandom but it became really bad after episode 3. It is now at the point where it doesn’t matter what happens in episode 4-6 they will hate it. They are watching with the intention of hating it. Sadly, I believe all this negative effects the way other fans perceive the show and encourages them to think that way too. It is not analyzed like a normal show due to the book series it is based on and a fandom that is hostile to the people that make it.

  110. Ha! I was right. Dany was lifting her glass to toast Arya! My first and only correct guess this season 😂

    What an opening! I am having the most fun. Little scared about Dany going quite dark there. Did feel she could have had someone bigging her up too. Like Jon maybe? Couldn’t he have interrupted Tormund to sing her praises?

    I keep on expecting Bronn to pop out with a crossbow! Sansa is making me nervous too.

  111. I kept expecting Brienne to suddenly thrust a sword through Bronn’s neck. Glad it didn’t happen!

  112. Catspaw Assassin:
    I kept expecting Brienne to suddenly thrust a sword through Bronn’s neck.Glad it didn’t happen!

    I dunno. Depends on whether he makes good on that threat. We may be wishing Brienne had been there sword a-ready!

  113. So if Jaime is staying up North, does that make Cersei Tyrion’s kill? If the valonquar is happening in the books, then it has to happen in the show too right? The end beats for the characters are supposedly the same right?

  114. Che,

    I dunno. Depends on whether he makes good on that threat. We may be wishing Brienne had been there sword a-ready!

    I definitely see your point, but it does add some needed tension now that the NK is gone (or is he?). ( ⚆ _ ⚆ )

  115. I am still reeling. They haven’t shocked me like that in a LONG time. I sat up in my seat with my jaw hanging for the whole sequence. Damn ad breaks!!! What the hell is going to happen? This is not good. Not good at all.

  116. Oh! WOW. Look what they did to Dany 🙁

    All of you were right about it.. and I promised, I will agree I was wrong

  117. I was convinced Tyrion would be the one to die this episode not Missandei!!! 😭😭 I am shooketh. Well, I’m assuming her death is the trigger for Dany. She won’t be holding back anymore.

  118. Dany has lost everyone of her early followers but Greyworm. This might not end well for her.

  119. Jon/Aegon is going to put a sword through Dany’s heart….. Prophecy Fulfilled. She is the true threat to the people at this point. Cersei is using them as pawns, but Dany is going to burn them all alive.

    What an amazing show.

  120. This is another wonderful episode.

    We have two and a half hours left.

    I suppose Ep 5 will be another big battle.

    What is Sansa and Brienne doing in WF? They need to head south. These people are all nuts. Well, maybe only these two will survive this shitstorm.
    Bran is just chilling in his chair, not a worry in the world.

  121. Maybe I’m a fan boy, but I thought that was really good. All kinds of political scheming. Wow, I was stunned at that ending.

  122. Oh my fricking gawd!!!!! Haven’t read any of the above discussion, but just had to come here to say that the great war of mad queens has begun and there is no way to stop it.

  123. The Bastard,

    they might call it hate, but… Night king can’t do shit compared to Cersei. Can he? will wait and see.. How much people love the show now. I am disappointed already

  124. ash:
    Oh my fricking gawd!!!!!Haven’t read any of the above discussion, but just had to come here to say that the great war ofmad queens has begun and there is no way to stop it.

    The true king can stop it. The king of the people.

  125. There you go .
    I hope all the people who hates the obvious route and Disney ending are satisfied now..
    Even though it butchers 7 seasons of character arc..who can care about that..

    And if people think dany can’t be justified in what she is going to do next..go to hell..

    NK why couldn’t you have taken out dany and the Unsullied before you were gone ..

  126. BranStark:
    Oh! WOW. Look what they did to Dany 🙁

    All of you were right about it.. and I promised, I will agree I was wrong

    🙁 I don’t know if it’s me stress-eating a bag of cherry blasters tonight or this but I don’t feel so good T___T

  127. I’m sad to see this happen to Dany.

    I really don’t like this Sansa, though I guess she’s gonna turn out to be right.

    I still think Ayra will kill Cersei with Jamie’s face.

    Fuck Bronn.

    Jon, keep your head on your shoulders.

  128. I hate how the villains get soooo lucky. Arya has got to get to KL soon and kill Cersei once and for all.

    However, will Arya kill her if she learns Cersei’s pregnant?

  129. This will not end well for Dany. Now that the secret is out and she is losing control (I don’t really blame her.)

    Sly move by Sansa, knowing that Tyrion couldn’t keep it a secret. I really thought that she would have been mad and hurt by the revelation, but it appears she is using it to play the game to her and the North’s advantage.

  130. Fox: the Night King touched Arya…..why didnt she turn into a walker?????

    The Night King needs to be chugging cold air for his rays to work.

  131. Dragonbringer,

    How does any of this butcher 7 seasons of character building? Most of what has happened has been built up over those 7 seasons. Actually, a lot of the complaints, such as the relationship between Grey Worm and Missandei being built up makes a lot of sense.

  132. Heavy episode.
    Dany is so unprepared, surprising how obvious that is.
    Damn, Missandei never had a chance. At least it was quick. RiP.
    Bronn will be dead soon.
    SanSan…a good, respectable bond.
    No one can keep a secret.

    Rhaegal RiP….really? Quite a jarring moment. Bran…please help.

  133. Dragonbringer,

    I feel the same, at least they should have given her the hero’s death. Now All her viserys kinds of reaction. I have kissed good bye for my beloved queen already.

  134. Oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear. That’s some head-f***ery right there.

    Did they allow Qyburn back in, or did he split the moment Cersei started getting snarly?

    I refuse to believe Rhaegal’s dead until we see the corpse. Come on, Jon, come rescue your winged laddie & nurse him back to health. Give your girl a hug while you’re at it.

  135. Fox:
    the Night King touched Arya…..why didnt she turn into a walker?????

    She had to be dead first? NK also touched Bran and he’s still alive and kicking, at least metaphorically.

  136. ash,

    Yeah Two mad queens…two queens that never wanted peace that never wanted to settle the differences..two queens that doenst care about people and use them as human shields..

    TWO mad queens..two mad queens who keeps enraging the other ..two queens who dare to come after me .
    Two queens it’s right ..

  137. How in the hell could Dany miss an entire fleet of ships from the air? That should have been an easy spot. Second, Jaime already offered High Garden to Bronn right after it was taken last season. Two very bad story telling issues right there. It seems like D&D are just trying to wrap this up as fast as possible, plot holes be damned.

  138. By the way, it didn’t look very cold in King’s Landing. Did winter end with the end of the NK?

  139. Jack Bauer 24:
    I will never forgive what they did to Ghost. Total butchery. Yikes.

    What else was Ghost gonna do, hang out in Kings Landing? It’s bad enough Aegon Targaryen (the Jon Show, bastard of Ned Stark, illusion is mostly dead for good now that the cat’s out of the bag) will mostly likely be staying there. That’s if he survives until the end. Either way, going with Tormund is the best option.

  140. Best acting of any episode in recent memory, hands-down, across the board.

    Gendry+Sansa will sit the throne.

  141. Season 2 Dany: “Thirteen, when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! Turn us away, and we will burn you first.”

    Some Fans During Season 8: “They ruined her character by turning her bad. She would never act like this.”

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

  142. Tyrion gave Highgarden to Bronn, Oleanna will be spinning in her grave.

    It is very odd to see Jon just give his dog away. That was very strange. Weird actually – why not just leave him in WF.

  143. Perfect.

    This is an episode worthy of GRRM. The characters all do reasonable, logical things premised upon their own motivations. That sets a series of events unfolding, all of which flow logically.

    Dramatic events unfold by reason of those clashing logical consequences. Last week, we saw people make dumb decisions because that was reverse-engineered so it could lead to the dramatic moment.

    This week, we see a complete 180 and move back to the GRRM style/premise of writing and away from Hollywood scripting.

    It’s going to lead to a clash with an ugly result that will be bittersweet and make everybody happy and sad. As it should.

    Excellent. Well done. 10/10

  144. What is euron fearful of or surprised by in the sky in the episode 5 preview!? Can’t just be Dany flying on a dragon, he’s seen that… stone dragon? Rhaegal, Alive like Jon reborn? What say you!?

  145. So some people out there apparently thought that we didn’t get our hearts broken enough last episode. They thought it wasn’t bloody enough. That GOT had lost its ruthless edge. Are they happy now? Probably not. They never are. But whatever. I don’t particularly care what they think right now, if I ever did.

    Missandei … 💔💔💔

    Burn that foul city to the ground, Dany. It may be “wrong”, but I don’t care. Whatever it takes.

  146. Dragonbringer,

    Sansa will be just as mad as they are, she’s on the road already. She’s Cersei 2.0 – she’s learned to lie, manipulate and backstab from the best of them. I think that’s going to be the moral of the story. You can’t break the wheel. The young kill off the old claiming they’ll be better and then up doing the exact same thing their predecessors did once they get power. Kind of like politics today I think.

  147. Now I too am done with this show. 10 years onboard, following every character arc, especially rooting for Dany, and after everything she went through she’s the one who has to lose everything ? Right after defeating the mad king, they just pluck her one wing at a time. This was heartbreaking. Dany has nothing left. I have zero reasons to watch this show now.

  148. The Bastard,

    It’s butchery how the actions of dany will be equated to madness instead of vengeful..
    Let’s talk about varys and Sansa can we …
    In fact let’s talk about varys alone..
    Is the role of advisor to only ever keep on saying Not to do anything…is he ever offered a solution how to win over cersei..big help this guys where…

    And if people think that jon or tyrion or anyone else for that matter will not lose it after all this is simply ridiculous..

  149. Cryptkeeper: What else was Ghost gonna do, hang out in Kings Landing? It’s bad enough Aegon Targaryen (the Jon Show, bastard of Ned Stark, illusion is mostly dead for good now that the cat’s out of the bag) will mostly likely be staying there. That’s if he survives until the end. Either way, going with Tormund is the best option.

    I agree! Better for Ghost to go north. I wish Jon could have given him a head scratch or something before he left. But Ghost is safer and I can imagine him living happily ever after.

    Does this mean Tormund lives too? I’m guessing so.

  150. Mango:
    Tyrion gave Highgarden to Bronn, Oleanna will be spinning in her grave.

    He’ll never collect on it. But it ended up being a bit of a red herring. Perfectly fine with it.

  151. Congrats to Sansa for being a mini Cersei. Fuck her.

    Fuck the Lannisters.

    Fuck Euron.

    Fuck almost everyone at the moment. Honestly, the best people in this episode were laid out on the pyre.

  152. I can’t believe Rhaegal died so suddenly and out of nowhere. Maybe I should have guessed when Jon had decided not to ride him, but I’m not good at guessing. As much as I’m weeping for Missandei, I have been expecting her death since she and Grey Worm made their happy after war plans – they always bring tragedy. Or his death. Or theirs.
    Ghost crying after Jon was heartbreaking.
    I can’t even remember how happy I was for Brienne and Jaime’s final physical expression of love. I felt her pain to be abandoned like that, but I think he left to kill Cersei. The things I do for hate!

  153. Flora Linden,

    Sadly this show is not analyzed like a normal show. If this wasn’t based on a book series and was an original story by D&D it wouldn’t get all this hate. I believe peoples opinions can be heavily shaped by the fandom they participate in. A portion of the fandom has always been hostile to the writers but now after episode 3 D&D hate has gone completely mainstream and no matter what happens in the finale episodes they will be condemned. It is now trendy to watch and consider the show and its writers awful and condemn everything that happens. For many it is entertaining to engage in this type of nerd rage with others and pretend they are superior to the writers.

    I believe it won’t be until the show is over and all new fans view the show through binge watching without influence from fandom about what they are supposed to like or dislike and how they are supposed to think the writers are “hacks”, then there will be a more accurate analysis of the show. Because right now going by what many fans are writing you would think this is the worst thing ever put on screen when that is of course insane. It is still the most entertaining show on TV.

  154. As an episode – 10/10

    The sequence in the beginning was so beautiful, and as the episode progressed I was shocked with the events. I’m so angry! I kind of want dany to burn down kl
    Im sad the Starks are separated

    Is Arya going to die? Was that foreshadowing?

    As a fan of certain characters, I am pissed.

  155. So if Aegon is there in the preview for next week, after having traveled with a marching army from Winterfell, Arya and the Hound, traveling by horse are definitely at Kings Landing next week. Prepare for some assassinations.

  156. Kior,

    They savaged her. I wish she had died. And everyone brushing her aside like she is an annoying fly.. it’s almost like “You either die a hero or live Long enough to become a villain” this is what they are doing to Dany.My Heart is broken and I am going to ugly cry now..

  157. Trarecar:
    I’m sad to see this happen to Dany.

    I really don’t like this Sansa, though I guess she’s gonna turn out to be right.

    I still think Ayra will kill Cersei with Jamie’s face.

    Fuck Bronn.

    Jon, keep your head on your shoulders.

    Me too. She’s lost so much. My God. My heart goes to her. I’m still holding out hope she won’t turn into a mad queen in the end. That will be such a crappy ending for this compelling character — one we saw triumph through every struggle thrown at her.

    I wished Sansa was a little bit more appreciative/grateful towards Dany. As Tyrion said, they didn’t have to be best friends. But I guess the show had to create that tension to get the story moving. Oh well.

    Arya, my girl, please hurry up. I know there are people who want Tyrion or Jaime kill Cersei. But having Arya kill Cersei is just right. After all, she’s the only one left on her list.

    As for Jon, I just hope he won’t be made to turn on Dany. But it looks like he’ll be made to choose between love and duty. “Love is the death of duty”, as Maester Aemon told him once.

  158. wilshade: How in the hell could Dany miss an entire fleet of ships from the air? That should have been an easy spot. Second, Jaime already offered High Garden to Bronn right after it was taken last season.

    Because she wasn’t flying all that high, and the squadron of ships was on the south side of the island and hidden from view. That’s how.

    Jaime did not “offer Bronn Highgarden”. Bronn asked for it and Jaime refused him, saying he didn’t really want it (meaning it was too hard for him to keep). Jaime gave him a sack of gold and more promises.

  159. Dee Stark,

    People bashing the show. The quality of these finale 3 episodes don’t matter anymore, a very loud section of the fandom will hate them no matter what.

  160. Dragonbringer:
    The Bastard,

    It’s butchery how the actions of dany will be equated to madness instead of vengeful..
    Let’s talk about varys and Sansa can we …
    In fact let’s talk about varys alone..
    Is the role of advisor to only ever keep on saying Not to do anything…is he ever offered a solution how to win over cersei..big help this guys where…

    And if people think that jon or tyrion or anyone else for that matter will not lose it after all this is simply ridiculous..

    She has been turning made since season 1. Call it what you want, but they have been foreshadowing it for the last 2 or 3 seasons….. while also having simple references to it since nearly the beginning of the show. Do you think when they say he “impulses are bad” that it means it is vengeance?

    Sounds like you are a huge Dany fan and are just mad that she is doing what she was made to do this entire time.

    As a fan of Team Stark….. THIS IS AMAZING!!!

  161. Dee Stark,

    Hi Dee, the comments are the usual complaints – D&D “ruined” the show, it’s awful now, it’s crap, etc. On and on and on. The same people who wanted Ep 3 to be a bloodbath are upset characters are dying in later episodes.

  162. Wolfdragon,

    I’m glad someone else noticed that. I interpreted it as a look of shock so i wonder if Drogon will finally have some armor or Rhaegal is not dead… but he looked pretty dead 😭

  163. Shy Lady Dragon:
    I can’t believe Rhaegal died so suddenly and out of nowhere. Maybe I should have guessed when Jon had decided not to ride him, but I’m not good at guessing. As much as I’m weeping for Missandei, I have been expecting her death since she and Grey Worm made their happy after war plans – they always bring tragedy.
    Ghost crying after Jon mas heartbreaking.
    I can’t even remember how happy I was for Brienne and Jaime’s final physical expression of love. I felt her pain to be abandoned like that, but I think he left to kill Cersei. The things I do for hate!

    However, it does make sense that he heads south – it would be past weird if he just sat in WF for the rest of the series. Clearly that was never on the program.

    I hope he survives the trip south but everyone is at high risk. I think we will all be watching next week.

  164. Dee Stark:
    As an episode – 10/10

    The sequence in the beginning was so beautiful, and as the episode progressed I was shocked with the events. I’m so angry! I kind of want dany to burn down kl
    Im sad the Starks are separated

    Is Arya going to die? Was that foreshadowing?

    As a fan of certain characters, I am pissed.

    Dee! Long time no see. 🙂 I’m so sad for Dany. I don’t like what’s happening to her. I’d really hate it if she becomes the “villain” in the end.

    I want Cersei dead now. As in now.

  165. Wow. That was totally shocking. As soon as I saw Missandei in chains, I knew that was not going to end well for her. It was at least a quick way to to go. I actually don’t think Dany has gone mad-queen. She is justifiably filled with rage. She clearly didn’t leap onto Drogon, fly high beyond the reach of the scorpions and then descend into King’s Landing to burn the place down – that would be what a mad queen would do. From the preview for next week (and the shot of her and Jon in Dragonstone), she clearly does go back there and wait for the rest of her forces. She’s furious, but not lost. I am hoping she can come back from this. I do love Dany, not as much as Jon, but I do think she has it in her to be a good person who had a beautiful vision.

    It was a great episode. I loved the first half and was absolutely shocked by the second. From that Hound and Arya exchange, I’m a bit worried the pair of them are going to somehow end up in a scenario with The Mountain and Cersei, but I don’t see it going well for either of them. Bit worried about that.

    Jaime, what the hell are you up to?!

    All the Jon goodbye scenes in Winterfell were purposefully done to make it feel like he is going to die. Either they’re misdirecting and he lives or they’re giving him lovely send offs, but until I know which I am going to cry every tine I rewatch that scene. It was beautifully done. Though I wish Jon had given Ghost a hug at least!

    Cersei can go to hell. And Euron is an idiot if after Tyrion’s speech to her, he doesn’t work out that the baby isn’t his. How else would Tyrion have known?

    As someone who has hated Snarky Sansa (but loved pre-snarky Sansa), I have to say, I do understand why she told Tyrion. She wants what’s best for her people and she genuinely thinks Jon is the better choice.

  166. That was the best episode of the season bay far. Is Jaime going to get his valonqar on?

  167. Three things this episode did for this crackpot. 1. Emphasized Jon coming back. 2. Had Jon discussing and using rhaegals name. 3. Put unusual emphasis on discussion of rhaegal’s death…im
    Just sayin. Is a little armor going to dampen euron’s spirits?

  168. So, was Varys plotting to assassinate Dany?

    Whose face is Arya taking to get into King’s Landing?

    Is there a significance to Dragonstone? I’d always hoped (more far-fetched than the stone kings) that Azor Ahai would wake the dragons from stone at Dragonstone since they seemed animated once in the books. But with my stone king theory crashing and burning, the Episode 4 trailer seems to be taunting me by featuring stone dragons, followed by Dragonstone’s throne, followed by the cry of a dragon, and followed immediately by Euron’s look of shock.

    Is Dany being outed as too hot to handle, with everyone leaning in favor of someone who has the right balance of hot emotions (fire) and cool logic (ice)? Or are they just toying with us, yet again?

    And what is Sassy Sansa up to? Or has she already done it?

  169. Arya and Sandor are back together on the road!!

    I’m going to read other comments but I thought this was an excellent episode. I am sad that we may have seen the last of a number of favorite characters. It seemed like Sam and Gilley said their goodbyes. I’m not sure if that means Jon will die before getting to come back North or Sam and Gilley’s story is done. I thought for sure Cersei was going to kill Tyrion.

  170. Che: And Euron is an idiot if after Tyrion’s speech to her, he doesn’t work out that the baby isn’t his. How else would Tyrion have known?

    He’s not an idiot. He is going to figure that out. And that may well have consequences. He’s a “little brother”, too.

    No shortage of potential killers of Cersei. We know she will die; the only question is who and how.

    And two weeks from now, it will all be over. *sad*

  171. Even a deranged idiot gone insane would realize how vulnerable a dragon is by now at Kings Landing. Dany might be angry and homicidal (it’s an open question just how mad queen she’ll go), but she’s not just gonna rush the place without a plan in place. She’s had enough bolts fly at her by now. Getting rid of those scorpions must be her first priority.

  172. Che,

    Yeah how can she not lose it…if people hell bent on not believing her and act behind her..
    Sansa believing jon is best after all the thing that dany has done…what else she can do to prove it ..
    She has offered them everything and still people don’t believe in her ..
    Anyone will be pushed after all this..

  173. Che,

    The Hound and Arya do make a very formidable team. The one you never see, Arya. And, the one you only see, The Hound. Perfect partners for what they are about to do.

  174. Ginevra: And what will Sassy Sansa do? Or has she already done it?

    She has, in large measure, already done it. She has sewn doubt in Daenerys’ counselors. She has already ensured she will fall.

    She has, after all, offered a better choice – and one with a better claim. That is all that will be necessary in the end.

  175. As much as I enjoyed last week’s spectacle, this episode was even better. It was classic GOT. It sent me on a rollercoaster of emotions and ripped my fucking heart out. Therefore, I’m happy.

    Random thoughts because I’ve had wine and can’t craft a cool little mini essay right now.

    Are people pretending like Mad Queen Dany wasn’t foreshadowed clearly as day both in the books in the show from the very beginning? Ok.

    I still like and am rooting for Dany though. I’m mad too.

    Well, at least Clegane Bowl is actually for real confirmed now.

    Also Jaime as valonqar confirmed.

    But why do they have to keep killing off all the POC? Poor Greyworm is probably a goner too.

    I’m not hating Ghost being left in the North. Now I’m pretty confident he lives. Whether he’s reunited with Jon or not.

    I’m still shipping Sansa and Tyrion.

  176. wilshade: The Hound and Arya do make a very formidable team. The one you never see, Arya. And, the one you only see, The Hound. Perfect partners for what they are about to do.

    Or try to do. It’s a dramatic setup, right? That doesn’t mean we will get the payoff we expect.

    Just that the board is set and the pieces are moving. Beyond that? In two weeks, we’ll know.

  177. Just watched the episode here in the UK, it was much better than I expected and set up nicely Mad Queen Dany going full fire and blood next episode. I really don’t see any way back for from here; next episode will be carnage.

  178. By the way, I loved how Arya understood and supported Jon’s decision to bring Dany and her dragons/army to WF.

    I was wondering though what made her distrust Dany. She had very little encounter with her. For Sansa, it’s a bit understandable because she’s threatened by another queen/ruler. But for Arya, what made her distrust her? She’s not the type who’d dislike someone just because of the name (i.e., Targaryen) or status/position.

  179. Jared,

    Agreed, Missandei just cancelled every advice from anyone, sound or otherwise by uttering that word. Missandei’s seen and heard the people of KL and realize they aren’t worth the shit in fleabottom. A free people that choose a vile tyrant over a liberator deserve their comupence, from the viewpoint of a slave.
    Varys I fear is going to attempt an assassination for love (of common people) especially knowing Missandei’s advice nullifies his and Tyrion’s, don’t know what Tyrion’s next move is.
    I’m so heartbroken the most beautiful woman on Planetos fell at the end.

  180. I knew Tormund was the better guy for Brienne. Never trust a guy who has to grow to appreciate you. Always choose the one who wants you for exactly who you are.

  181. The “Valonquar” is either Arya or maybe even Euron once he realizes that’s not his baby.

    “Now how the f*ck did that imp know about the baby already…?!”

  182. Characters all getting on the Dany is unfit train real quick. I really think they needed more space in the arc here.

    I do hope in the end that Dany realizes that what she was really looking for all this time never had anything to do with the iron throne. Jorah was probably the only one that could have gotten through to her though.

    I was really hoping this episode would make the war against the undead actually matter but nope. It’s completely irrelevant. Dany could have arrived for the first time in Westeros in this episode with half of what she had before and we’d be in the same spot, other than Jon being torn up about it.

  183. Personally I really don’t care how vicious the hate is in some quarters. They are not who I follow they are not important to me. If peope are influenced by them well thats their loss. I come here to discuss the show, among the good people who I’ve enjoyed talking with the last eight years. So let us begin …

  184. GRRM says bittersweet ending, however one can make it so bittersweet it’s just bitter.

  185. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    I knew Tormund was the better guy for Brienne. Never trust a guy who has to grow to appreciate you. Always choose the one who wants you for exactly who you are.

    I wonder if Brienne will go after Jaime. Would be pretty horrific if she went after Jaime, was captured by Cersei and used by her to torture Jaime….. but this is GOT. And I can soooo see them doing that.

    Is anyone else struggling to see where the sweet bit of all of this is going to come in to play?

    If Jon and co. are going to be another 2 weeks before they arrive, that might mean Dany does discover she is pregnant before he arrives.

    Also, could Tormund’s words to Jon hinted at him going to live beyond the wall and leave everything behind at the end?

  186. Pigeon,

    I’m kind of in the same mentality right now.

    They pretty much gave me a reason to hate or dislike almost every character in this episode. All but a few are doing just about everything out of hate, jealousy, selfishness and/or just plain evilness. Pretty much nobody seemed to change a bit after almost dying – just picked up where they were and escalated things.

    Don’t take that as meaning I hate the show. I realize they’re working toward a specific ending to this story. I’m just not really enjoying what the characters are doing right now. It’s not a very “pleasant” watch. As always I’m assuming it won’t end the way my imagination built it during all these years of reading and then watching the story. Still, my hope has always been that I’d enjoy and appreciate the actual ending. I’ll continue to carry that hope.
    ————
    So Jaime left without specifically saying why he was leaving, other than that he’s “hateful.” D&D said on Inside the Episode that he’s returning to Cersei because he just can’t break awaw from her. I do not believe for a minute though that his intention is to go back to be her lover.

    As much as I liked Arya and the Hound together before I’m surprised to find that I’m not enthusiastic about it this time. I don’t think their destination bodes well for them. I came into the season believing Arya had about a 99.9% chance of living that held up until this episode. It’s dropping quickly now.

  187. Dany was so MAD that she decided to go to Dragonstone instead of start burning KL then and there ..

  188. That was a damn good episode. Surely one of the best of this season. I really enjoyed how they balanced the character moments. They’ve done a far better job at that this season than in season 7.

  189. Dragonbringer:
    Che,

    Yeah how can she not lose it…if people hell bent on not believing her and act behind her..
    Sansa believing jon is best after all the thing that dany has done…what else she can do to prove it ..
    She has offered them everything and still people don’t believe in her ..
    Anyone will be pushed after all this..

    Didn’t she offer purpose to Tyrion,Varys and others.. oh well!! Never mind that, she’s mad. I hate Varys. I hate Sansa….

  190. Tyjon: Varys I fear is going to attempt an assassination for love (of common people) especially knowing Missandei’s advice nullifies his and Tyrion’s, don’t know what Tyrion’s next move is.

    Varys doesn’t need to do that. All he needs to do is make Jon’s claim known. The Lords of Westeros will never follow her. And Qyburn’s scorpions have already brought the Tyranny of the Targaryen Dragons to an effective end. All over but the crying now.

    All by way of saying. “book Varys” is not above assassination; however, that is not “show Varys”‘ way.

  191. Does anybody really believe the Direwolf is going to stay North? He is going to bring the Wildlings south to fight. They might collect a few houses in the north, including a specific one in the swamp. Dorne has always been loyal to Targaryans.

  192. • Just finished watching the episode.

    Have the Sansa-the-oathbreaker partisans come out yet?

    Dany was right: Keep the secret a secret. Now that the cat’s out of the bag…

    • I predicted Dany would legitimize Gendry; didn’t expect Arya’s reaction.

    • But I can’t be too upset: The Arya & Sandor Road Show returns!!!!

  193. Oh wow folks. I didn’t want it to happen because I thought it would be awkward and it did happen. But it was beautiful. Wow. An accomplishment. One of my happiest moments ever on tv.

  194. I’m scanning Twitter and laughing at posters who hate Jon now for not petting Ghost before he left. He didn’t do that, so he won’t make a good king. 🤣

    These meltdowns are going to get even worse the next two weeks.

  195. Looks like things are going to end much much more heavily weighted towards the bitter than the sweet. So more of a tragedy than a drama…

    Dany knew how dissemination of the knowledge of Jon’s parentage would unfold. She knew that Cersei would not let Missandei go (though she and Greyworm had a bit of hope for a moment). I hate that Cersei even put her hands on Missandei and I hate them killing Rhaegal. I don’t know if siege tactics would work on Cersei and I don’t know if Dany has the patience to try that strategy.

    Jon’s honesty and the fact that he tries to be good makes Dany and others love him, but from the way others discussed how his wishes don’t matter with regard to the ramifications of his parentage, they seem to feel he’s just a pawn. Hope he proves them wrong.

    I’m not sure what Jaime thinks he’s going to be able to do in king’s Landing. I assume he told Brienne those things b/c he felt he didn’t deserve her. I find it hard to believe that he thinks Cersei can be reasoned with, so I’m assuming he’s going to make sure she dies.

    Glad that Jon sent Ghost north. It’s safer for him up there.

    From the post episode interview, I think one of the producers said Sansa was taking cues from Littlefinger with regard to her decision to tell Tyrion about Jon’s parentage. Yikes….

  196. Three things I noticed.

    Jon said no to a woman who loves him.
    Arya said no to a man who loves her.
    Jaime said no to decency and to the woman who loves him.

    Jon, Arya, and Jaime chose self-posession over love. Interesting.

  197. D&D: What happens with varys..

    GRRM: well varys supports Fake Aegon and plans to overthrow dany and dany kill him..

    D&D: we don’t have time for Fake Aegon..we have jon aa Aegon and so we can have varys switch loyalties to jon .and dany can kill him..
    So we have The same ending ..

  198. Gator5000e:
    By the way, it didn’t look very cold in King’s Landing. Did winter end with the end of the NK?

    Do you want an onscreen thermometer??? What WON’T you people complain about? Next you’ll say it should be in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.

    Also, totally off-topic, but how you can post anything with the Tampa Bay Lightning logo after these playoffs without dying of embarrassment is beyond my comprehension.

  199. Jack Hamm:
    Three things I noticed.

    Jon said no to a woman who loves him.
    Arya said no to a man who loves her.
    Jaime said no to decency and to the woman who loves him.

    Jon, Arya, and Jaime chose self-posession over love.Interesting.

    Jon chooses the realm over love time and time again. Which makes him the best king. He has done it time and time again, season after season.

  200. Is Brienne the only one outside of the Lannister’s and Bran that know Jaime pushed Bran now?

  201. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    I knew Tormund was the better guy for Brienne. Never trust a guy who has to grow to appreciate you. Always choose the one who wants you for exactly who you are.

    I have no idea how this will turn out.

    Just look at it like this – Jaime was happy to stay in WF will Brienne when 2 dragons and an army head south to put her out of the throne.

    He decided to leave when news arrived that Cersei was winning. He decided to head south. I am not sure what he plans to do now but he did not seem too bothered to help Cersei when he thought she was going to lose.

    But clearly, he could not just stay in WF doing nothing for the rest of the series. Could he?

  202. Che: I wonder if Brienne will go after Jaime.

    Not without a command to do so. Brienne, like Jon, is wholly honourable. Honour requires that she remains by Lady Sansa. She will remain.

    Honour required Jon to tell his family. It required him to keep his vow to Daenerys. He is still going to keep it. And we will see whether it comes to a breaking point where he will not. My guess is somebody else makes that choice for him. Jon is his Uncle’s son — Honourable to the end.

    One nice momentary thing: Brienne and Jaime were set to live in a small house. Not quite the life of marrying a crofter’s daughter, but close enough. Tyrion got it entirely. I appreciated the wistful nod to what could have been — and how they could not escape their own nature to allow it to happen.

    As a nod to fan service goes, that was pretty damned perfect.

  203. The Bastard: Jon chooses the realm over love time and time again.Which makes him the best king.He has done it time and time again, season after season.

    I saw it more as Arya’s words ringing true: about loyalty to family. He is being loyal, honest and true to his family, even at the cost to his queen. He can’t lie to his sister-cousins and he will go against the woman he love’s wishes to stay true to who he is.

    I do agree that he will do what is right for his people, but I don’t think we saw him thinking about his people in this episode; we saw him being unable to act without honour and honesty with his family, even though it meant hurting the one he loved. We saw him being Jon, never-changing, honest Jon. Makes me pretty scared for him.

  204. Sansa is deadly. She is really clear minded.

    Jon is a bit of a wuss though. That is not the kind of secret you share even with family.

    But anyway, Daenerys would need to get rid of Jon at some point – he is a threat to her in the same way that Ned understood Jon was a threat to Robert.

  205. I shouldn’t be surprised that people are hating on Sansa. But I am. She’s been wary of Dany. That’s all.

    I just about lost it when she put her direwolf brooch on Theon, making him, in death a real member of the Stark family. That was so beautiful. I also loved the conversation with Sandor. I wasn’t even that hyped for their reunion. I think the dysfunctional big brother/little sister relationship with Arya is more compelling. But it was good. She clearly won his respect and admiration. Not that he would ever admit it. But I can tell 🙂

    I don’t know what she’s going to do in the next two episodes, but I think it’ll be good.

    Is she the only one to survive being a hostage of Cersei? Pretty sure she was. I count Tyrion in season 4 as Tywin’s prisoner, not Cersei. Tywin was the one running the place at that time.

  206. Jack Bauer 24:
    I will never forgive what they did to Ghost. Total butchery. Yikes.

    They could have killed him off offscreen last week quite easily. That would be better, in your estimation?

    This seems like the best ending possible for Ghostie. Jon is likely headed to King’s Landing for good (whether that is as king or as corpse, who knows, but I don’t see him coming back to Winterfell anytime soon). Ghost would likely sweat his balls off in KL.

  207. The episode shredded me.

    From Arya’s refusal of Gendry’s proposal (his face was so hopeful and I knew she’d shut him down), to Sansa and the Hound, and Jaime’s departure and Brienne’s heartbreak, to Jon’s seemingly casual dismissal of the injured Ghost, and Rhaegal’s gut-wrenching death, to Missande’s “dracarys” order, I was in tears most of the time.

    I’m sure I’ll have more to say over the next few days, but right now I’m gutted. Shakespearean indeed.

  208. Dee Stark,

    Count me in. Torch the f*cking place. Dany & Co. have suffered enough casualties trying to play nice.

    She’s got one nuke left. Detonate it!

  209. Steel_Wind: Not without a command to do so. Brienne, like Jon, is wholly honourable. Honour requires that she remains by Lady Sansa. She will remain.

    Honour required Jon to tell his family. It required him to keep his vow to Daenerys. He is still going to keep it. And we will see whether it comes to a breaking point where he will not. My guess is somebody else makes that choice for him. Jon is his Uncle’s son — Honourable to the end.

    One nice momentary thing: Brienne and Jaime were set to live in a small house. Not quite the life of marrying a crofter’s daughter, but close enough. Tyrion got it entirely. I appreciated the wistful nod to what could have been — and how they could not escape their own nature to allow it to happen.

    As a nod to fan service goes, that was pretty damned perfect.

    Ned did not think honour meant telling his family anything about Jon’s parentage.

    He did not tell Cat , nor Jon, nor his children.

    Jon is not the brightest bulb.

  210. For those concerned about how Dany reacts and how mad queen she gets, Grey Worm wasn’t exactly the image of calm and collected after the beheading. They focused longer on her wrath, but he looked ready to kill everyone on sight no matter what.

  211. Che:

    All the Jon goodbye scenes in Winterfell were purposefully done to make it feel like he is going to die. Either they’re misdirecting and he lives or they’re giving him lovely send offs, but until I know which I am going to cry every tine I rewatch that scene. It was beautifully done. Though I wish Jon had given Ghost a hug at least!

    I loved those scenes too. It felt like he was not coming back. But Tormund reminding Jon that the North (the “true North”) will always be in him made me wonder if Jon’s ending would be in the North. Rhaegal died, but Ghost lives. Will that mean he will forsake his dragon blood in the end and remain a wolf, as he’s always been? I can imagine him going back to where Tormund and his people are in the end to retrieve Ghost.

  212. I am now more fearful than ever that Jon is going to die. I am terrified that Cersei is going to find out his birthright, get her hands on him and kill him. Someone talk me down from this. Where is the sweet GRRM!? All I can foresee is bitter right now!

    I absolutely loved this episode, don’t get me wrong, but I am so so scared right now for Jon, Arya, Dany and Tyrion.

  213. The Bastard:
    Season 2 Dany: “Thirteen, when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! Turn us away, and we will burn you first.”

    Some Fans During Season 8: “They ruined her character by turning her bad.She would never act like this.”

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    This site needs to implement an upvote ability so I can give them all to you. Thank you!

    Dany’s descent into madness has been foreshadowed for a long, long time. Nobody cared when the victims of her wrath were the slavers of Essos, but now that they’re the innocents of King’s Landing, she ain’t looking too good. I get that it’s hard to deal with, but bitch that girl been cray from the get go.

  214. Clob,

    The battle against the AotD seemed pretty much forgotten by the end of the episode. Dany even pointed out that Cersei would try to make sure others wouldn’t believe it happened.

  215. Did they or did they not say Ghost was gonna do some cool stuff this season? LOL I guess it got cut.

  216. Clob:
    Pigeon,

    So Jaime left without specifically saying why he was leaving, other than that he’s “hateful.”D&D said on Inside the Episode that he’s returning to Cersei because he just can’t break awaw from her.I do not believe for a minute though that his intention is to go back to be her lover.

    My impression was that Jaime still had enough feelings for Cersei that he couldn’t watch her die, which is why he was staying with Brienne up until Sansa made the taunt about Cersei’s execution. That’s when he realized that he just couldn’t let her go. He’s addicted, like D&D said, but thinking about her death was the trigger.

  217. Mango,

    Because telling would have meant Jon’s death. There is no fear of somebody dying when he told them the truth.

  218. Dee Stark:
    Im sad for Dany. Im rooting for her.

    Yeah, that’s not going to end much better for her than it will for Cersei.

    Her own Councillors see that she would not share power with Jon. The only way out is foreclosed. Once Jon’s claim is known, Dany will have to act. And she is running out of people she can trust to act through.

    Not to mention that Arya is on her way south, too. And about her loyalties, there are no doubts whatsoever.

    Arya does not marry Gendry; Brienne and Jaime do not live happily ever after. No Lord Stark in Winterfell. There will be no happy endings to this tale – not when the protagonists will end up opposed despite the efforts of Jon to avoid all of that.

    It’s just not that kind of a story.

  219. It finally happened even on here. We have past the WoW fandom and have come close to the Star Wars fandom. We are the Avengers Endgame of fandom, but not in a good way. We are about to become the worst fandom out there congrats all that is not an easy task.

    Look above, look at YouTube, Twitter, Reddit we literally have tens of thousands of unemployed fantasy writers and show runners that knows what’s best. I quess we should be thankful all these amazing people that just know, will be doing their own shit soon.

    Christ, arm chair quarterbacking an amazing show because it wasn’t what you wanted. If there isn’t a bigger example of this shit show self entitled world I don’t know what is. For those of you ready or threatening to quit with two episodes left, dial back on the dramatics, you won’t.

    Let them finish the damn show. Almost everyone thought the Night King would go different, we were wrong. Think maybe we could be wrong on anything else? If not who cares? It’s a story we are being told, someone elses story. But, Stimpy it belongs to us all, no it doesn’t get over it.

    Yes, Dany has suffered, so have quite a few others. If, if she turns out mad and you can say you haven’t seen hints all along, re-watch the series, it’s been there since she first walked into the boiling bath water in season one. It’s been there from the beginning and many have called it. Who knows if that’s how it ends I don’t and neither does anyone on here.

    There are some amazing fans of this show on this site and I appreciate all the hard work, articles, and commentators. It was and still is somewhat the last safe space, but even here is getting just ugly. Done with the show not me, done with this fuckery of a fandom, its getting tougher to be proud of.

  220. Jack Bauer 24:
    Is Brienne the only one outside of the Lannister’s and Bran that know Jaime pushed Bran now?

    I think she may have always known. Jaime is very open with Brienne.

  221. Despite some minor annoying issues, I liked the episode.

    No really dumb decisions by the characters and what happened falls into the realm of the plausible.

    A Targaryen going mad… what a surprise at this point, huh folks?

  222. Jon is not going to die in the end. Dany will die and there is no way they are killing off both Dany and Jon. As soon as Jorah died, Dany no longer had a protector, which means the writing was on the wall.

  223. I thought Tyrion was going to die the moment he brought up Cersei’s baby. How does Euron think Tyrion knows?

  224. HousePotterz: They could have killed him off offscreen last week quite easily. That would be better, in your estimation?

    This seems like the best ending possible for Ghostie. Jon is likely headed to King’s Landing for good (whether that is as king or as corpse, who knows, but I don’t see him coming back to Winterfell anytime soon). Ghost would likely sweat his balls off in KL.

    Too casual. They’ve been together since Season 1 and that was the goodbye? Come on.

  225. Wow, that episode had way more going for it than I expected. I was so worried it would be filler, but it surpassed it on so many levels. As for what’s left, here goes.

    Dany kills Euron, freeing up…
    The Hound to kill The Mountain, freeing up…
    Jaime to kill Cersei, freeing up…
    Dany to claim the throne, leading to…
    Tyrion to kill Dany (becoming the Queenslayer), leading to…
    I’m honestly not sure anymore. Where does the Golden Company fit in? Does Daryo or someone sideline them? Who takes the throne? Jon doesn’t want it, does he abdicate in favor of lady Sansa, which is all she ever wanted? Does he head north? Is there no ruler and we’re left with chaos?

    God I love this show. I can’t wait for the next two weeks.

  226. Che:
    I am now more fearful than ever that Jon is going to die. I am terrified that Cersei is going to find out his birthright, get her hands on him and kill him. Someone talk me down from this. Where is the sweet GRRM!? All I can foresee is bitter right now!

    I absolutely loved this episode, don’t get me wrong, but I am so so scared right now for Jon, Arya, Dany and Tyrion.

    No! That can’t happen! ** fingers crossed

    I’m okay with Jon dying in the hands of the NK, but not Cersei. I’d hate it if it happens. In fact, I’m more hopeful now that Jon will not die – now that the AotD has been dealt with.

    I’m so afraid now for Dany. 🙁

    Arya will be there in the end. Maybe she rejected Gendry now because she had one more thing to do — kill the one remaining name on her list. I expect her to live ’til the end and maybe even go to Storms End once her mission’s done to check if the proposal still stands. 😀 (please!)

    I loved this episode, too. Even slightly more than e2.

  227. The Bastard:
    Mango,

    Because telling would have meant Jon’s death.There is no fear of somebody dying when he told them the truth.

    Really? He does not realise that if the secret is known it will mean that Deanerys will have to kill him?

    Did you see how quickly Varys realized the implications?

  228. Sam:
    By the way, I loved how Arya understood and supported Jon’s decision to bring Dany and her dragons/army to WF.

    I was wondering though what made her distrust Dany. She had very little encounter with her. For Sansa, it’s a bit understandable because she’s threatened by another queen/ruler. But for Arya, what made her distrust her? She’s not the type who’d dislike someone just because of the name (i.e., Targaryen) or status/position.

    I think that Arya trusts Sansa’s instincts. She also distrusts anyone who cares about gaining power. She’s seen the worst of what caring about power can bring. Of all these highborn characters, she’s the only one who got a taste of being a peasant, being the type of person who gets crushed under the wheel when she was masquerading as Arry.

  229. HousePotterz: They could have killed him off offscreen last week quite easily. That would be better, in your estimation?

    D&D were far more merciful to Ghost that GRRM will be in the Winds of Winter. We all know what is in store for book Ghost. That’s why that’s his name in the first place. The ink is already dry on book Ghost’s fate.

    Revel in show Ghost’s longevity and don’t look that gift horse in the mouth.

  230. In the trailer, Dany seemed more despondent (hair loose, leaning against the pillar looking out into the sea) than anything else. However, Missandei’s last words were her telling Dany to “light them up” (in David’s words) so there will be no more appeals or leniency now. That scene reminded me of Dany’s arrival in Meereen as well. Except this time she lost. This episode was fantastic. While I was right about Bronn showing up and guessed a character would die, I never thought it would be Missandei! I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I would rather it had been Tyrion (My own personal bias because I loved Missandei so). If there was anyone to keep Dany in check, it wouldn’t be Tyrion or Varys, but Missandei (in my opinion at least).

    Also, I do fear for Arya and Jon. Each of their departures seemed so absolute. Not in a way that Jon will stay in King’s Landing and Arya will travel west of Westeros sort of way, but in a #ValarMorghulis way.

    So Clash of Queens as next episode’s title?

  231. Did anyone notice the guest stars in this episode? At the feast, 2 of the wildlings. D&D got some screen time.

  232. Also (and if it makes me sound callous, oh well), I have never heard of an invisible pregnancy causing such devotion and loyalty to a fucking narcissistic psychopath as it appears to have inspired with Cersei. Sure, let’s repeatedly appeal to a person known for not compromising on anything, and have a ton of people die as a result of their whims, but ooh can’t risk hurting her because there’s a maybe baby, and she loves her children soooo much. Bullshit.

  233. Mango,

    I know, they are all supposed to head South and endanger their lives. But I remember Brienne and Jaime fighting back to back (illustrating the common saying), drinking together and then sharing something which looked a lot like love, not after victory sex.
    As I know Brienne and her history of being the ugly girl, I’m sure she interpreted Jaime’s leaving as a proof of Cersei being the love of his life. I interpreted as his need of finally (finally!) freeing himself.

  234. Finally coming here, I cant handle all the hate there’s on twitter. Basically they are hating on stupid things but I must say I love this episode, it was so great. Im going to miss Ghost but he’s going to be ok and alive, that’s what matters to me. I cant wait to see what Danny is going to do, I full support her after all she has been through

  235. Mango: It is very odd to see Jon just give his dog away. That was very strange. Weird actually – why not just leave him in WF.

    I mostly agree. While direwolves were originally home to north of the wall (per Ned Stark, season 1), Ghost never seemed unhappy at Winterfell. At least leave him behind to protect Sansa. Also, anyone who has felt the strength of the bond between a person and their dog/wolf knows that you can’t just pack them up and rehome them so easily. Not without a huge amount of heartbreak. At least a damn hug.

  236. Pip: I thought Tyrion was going to die the moment he brought up Cersei’s baby. How does Euron think Tyrion knows?

    I believe Tyrion was speaking to Euron, not Cersei, during that intentionally revealing moment. Tyrion wants Euron to think twice about supporting the mad queen.

  237. If one thinks that a character is overpowered or too powerful that it will make an easy ending or predictable ending ..
    Just don’t make the character too powerful in the first place..
    If one becomes too powerful over 6 seasons and loses everything and left where she started at the start to only become called as mad even though the throne was here for the taking for almost three seasons now..
    But after all this after all the saving and sacrifice she is robbed of everything she gained..she will be left with the name mad queen who needs to be killed for the good of the realm..is that it.

  238. Ok, does anyone feel that this week the story line was a bit forced? I mean Dany’s Army just casually heads to Dragonstone, no reconnaissance, no strategy. It didn’t occur to any of them that Cersei might have planned for this?? Did they just forget about the scorpions? WTF? And how exactly did they capture Missendei? Isn’t she from a beach town?? How close were Euron’s ships and why didn’t they kill everyone? Why take prisoners? Why didn’t Cersei kill Tyrion? Didn’t she hire Bronn to do exactly that and there he was, helpless, right in front of her and she didn’t kill him. GRRM might have been long-winded and he certainly liked describing food and banners but his plot lines didn’t come out of no where just for dramatic effect. Don’t get me wrong I love the drama of the show but they didn’t need to fabricate extra drama to make it interesting. Couldn’t Bran have “three-eye ravened” if and let them know about Euron? Well, we are thinning the herd a bit! I agree that I think D&D are trying to throw us off and Jamie is going to be the Valanquor.

  239. How can people be angry at Sansa?? Every character acts from their perspective. It makes 100% sense for Sansa to tell Tyrion.

    It’s crazy that Dany is basically forcing Jon to keep this a secret because of HER claim. Is that not power hungry?

    And honestly, how could Sansa be quiet? Knowing what happened to the Starks, knowing the history – and knowing as she does that Jon has the better claim and that (from her perspective) Jon would be a better king for the North.

    She has Varys’ position – half Targ half Stark is way better for her home.

    I feel for Dany but she was forcing Jon to be quiet in HER self interest. Sansa acted in HER self interest. They both were being power hungry.

  240. Che: I wonder if Brienne will go after Jaime. Would be pretty horrific if she went after Jaime, was captured by Cersei and used by her to torture Jaime….. but this is GOT. And I can soooo see them doing that.

    Is anyone else struggling to see where the sweet bit of all of this is going to come in to play?

    First-Yes! But I don’t know. On the one hand I can’t believe all these characters are being sidelined in Winterfell, especially Brienne and Pod, especially with Jaime leaving.
    Her crying broke my heart. She knows him better than Cersei-who just sees him as a now flawed reflection of herself. Brienne has seen him at his worst and she still sees the good in him and it tears me up that they left it like that.
    On the other hand I don’t think I could deal with it if Cersei got her hands on Brienne. She hates her. It would make the shame nun look tame.

    And yes. I’m having a hard time seeing the opportunities for sweet here. Lots of bitter, very very light on the sweet at this point.

    Also Sansa is a really bad sister cousin. Ghost is being sent away and Arya skipped town without us having any idea how she reacted to the news about Jon.
    There’s two options for her Hound road trip part two

    1. She’d come back to Winterfell for Jon but now that he’s not really her brother and she’s got that baggage with Gendry (who should have known Arya needed more time btw) she’s decided being No One is better and she’s going back to her list.
    or
    2. Once she realized who Jon was, she understood that Cersei and possibly Dany would both be continuous threats to his safety and so she’s going to take care of that for him while conveniently finishing her list.

    Also Bran has left the building and he’s talking about ancient wheelchairs instead of offering pertinent info.

    The Starks Are A Mess, should be the title of this episode.

    On the plus side, I’ve never seen Sandor smile and laugh so much in my life. Seeing how proud he is of Arya was really the best part of this episode. And drunk Tormund.
    And the five seconds of Braime happiness.
    (I now need Jaime to defy all odds and survive to come back to her. Please?)

  241. I assumed that the magic characters would leave Westeros but I was surprised when Arya announced that she was not coming back to WF.

    Did she even say bye to Jon, Sansa, Bran?

    I assume she will help Hound fight his brother.

  242. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    I knew Tormund was the better guy for Brienne. Never trust a guy who has to grow to appreciate you. Always choose the one who wants you for exactly who you are.

    Aww. I agree. Torienne would be better. Unfortunately, Brienne is head over heels in love with Jaime, as Jaime is with his sister.

  243. Mango: He does not realise that if the secret is known it will mean that Deanerys will have to kill him?

    Not sure if you have been keeping score, but the methods for her to carry out an order to “kill Jon” have largely been frittered away.

    Jon has the army. Not her. The only one left who would follow Dany’s orders are Grey Worm. She has nobody else. Varys wouldnt’ do it; Tyrion would not do it. Are you betting Drogon would do it?

    That’s not a bet I would make.

    And Jon’s army is as big as hers. No. Dany is not going to have a dagger put through Jon’s heart unless she is prepared to do it herself. And I don’t see that happening, either.

    Dany is not sitting on that Throne in 2 weeks time. She’s not going to win the GoT. When she is no longer deemed the best option on the Throne, she will, in the end, be betrayed.

    Sansa knew it would happen. She told Tyrion and left the rest to her certain knowledge of the feckless nature of all men.

  244. I kind of wish we got a Sansa – Jon goodbye, just for the tenor of that relationship.

    I guess purposefully we don’t get any of the Starks saying goodbye? Is it because we will see their ultimate goodbyes at some point when one of them dies? Please no 🙁

  245. At the ‘strategy’ meeting:
    1)There are Dothraki still in play, not clear how many.
    2) Yohn Royce … where the heck were you last episode?
    3) Dorne mentioned explicitly , interesting, can they be brought into play?
    4) Yara, hmmm, yeah expect her to make it some how.
    There has been a revolt against Euron?

  246. Ginevra: My impression was that Jaime still had enough feelings for Cersei that he couldn’t watch her die, which is why he was staying with Brienne up until Sansa made the taunt about Cersei’s execution.That’s when he realized that he just couldn’t let her go.He’s addicted, like D&D said, but thinking about her death was the trigger.

    I think that’s too straight forward, mentioned and written to make us think that. I for one truly believe Jaime IS a changed man. Everything he did, said and expressed in the last three episodes can just be thrown out the window if that isn’t the case (unintended pun). I can’t believe that he’s heading to KL to grovel at Cersei’s feet to take him back. He should know that she is more apt to kill him. He may attempt that to get close enough to her though…

  247. Shy Lady Dragon:
    Mango,

    I know, they are all supposed to head South and endanger their lives. But I remember Brienne and Jaime fighting back to back (illustrating the common saying), drinking together and then sharing something which looked a lot like love, not after victory sex.
    As I know Brienne and her history of being the ugly girl, I’m sure she interpreted Jaime’s leaving as a proof of Cersei being the love of his life. I interpreted as his need of finally (finally!) freeing himself.

    I am not all worried about Jaime loving Brienne. But whether they end up together is a different question.

    He thinks he may have the responsibility to remove Cersei or help remove her from leadership.

    I just hope he survives it. He only has one hand and is not the fighter he used to be.

    If Euron was not around he could pretend to seduce her and kill her then. But with Euron around, getting close to her is not so easy or so easy to survive. He may be able to play on Cersei’s belief that no-one can walk away from her. Use himself to lure her and try to get an opportunity.

    Anyway, let us see how it goes.

  248. Squirrel,

    Here’s what I recall – Jon was sitting on Rhaegal on the wall, keeping an eye on Bran. He left Bran because the NK started attacking Rhaegal, throwing spears at him – and Jon flew up to engage the NK, which he did, and then Dany and Drogon joined in that fight, and they knocked the NK off and he plummeted to the ground — Rhaegal was injured and landed hard, skidding along the ground, and Jon was knocked off. Dany tried to burn NK, and when that failed, she told Jon to get to Bran, and Jon tried hard to get to Bran but dead were raised and he had to fight them and so on, again saved by Dany. So, at the end, he had been driven back into the courtyard and was pinned down by Viserion.

  249. Nadia: It’s crazy that Dany is basically forcing Jon to keep this a secret because of HER claim. Is that not power hungry?

    Of course it is. Dany is now an usurper. There is no other way to spin that fact. She has no claim to the Iron Throne but through Jon. And she will not bow to that fact.

    She has no more claim to the Throne than Cersei. She’s not going to make it folks. This was never going to an end with a Dragon Queen on that throne, unless it was by marriage.

    And we saw the marriage option removed from the table. Dany won’t share power and Jon won’t share his Aunt’s bed.

    So that’s it. The Glorious Restoration isn’t going to happen. The only way there will be a Queen in the end is if it is Sansa.

    But I think we’ll get a King. A Reluctant King who does not want the Throne but is left with no choice. Duty over love.

    Just because Arya is on her way to KL to kill an enemy does not mean that will be the enemy she ends up killing.

  250. krupke:
    I’m not sure what Jaime thinks he’s going to be able to do inking’s Landing. I assume he told Brienne those things b/c he felt he didn’t deserve her. I find it hard to believe that he thinks Cersei can be reasoned with, so I’m assuming he’s going to make sure she dies.

    I felt sad for Brienne but Jaime running to Cersei once again was not a surprise. I think Jaime is not concerned only about Cersei but also their child. That pregnancy is Cersei’s armor right now.

  251. Ginevra,

    I might be blinded by my wishes, but I think Jaime left to get rid of his addiction and his speech, meant to confuse Brienne and all of us, should be read as hatred towards that part inside of him which loves Cersei.

  252. Sam,

    I think Jaime went to kill Cersei, and he doesn’t want Brienne to come to a place of danger. Plus, I don’t think Cersei is pregnant. I think that’s why Tyrion’s plea fell on deaf ears, one reason anyway.

  253. JamesL,
    You’ve said this perfectly. It’s trendy now to criticize. I finish an episode loving it and then go online and there’s bashing everywhere.
    That being said I do have one giant complaint though. Dany is no mad queen and the writers have been intentionally leading us to think she is. It’s out of character for her. Dany is the person who wanted to liberate people and end slavery. She identifies with the weak. The Tarlys? That was war. Treason is punishable by death, not to mention if she didn’t make an example of the Tarlys she’d have been inviting revolt. At this point she has two options: head back to Meereen or burn King’s Landing. Burning King’s Landing, or more appropriately the Red Keep as a last resort isn’t madness. Madness would be burning Flea Bottom just to see humans suffer. Burning the Red Keep where her enemies are is no different than humans have done in our very recent past when we bomb cities.

  254. Wow ….how to go back to hating Sansa in 10 minutes flat. She’s like a jr high school girl…kept her word and kept quiet for maybe twenty minutes. I hope the Daenerys turning to the dark side BS is just to throw people off. This is the person who couldn’t stand to see people in chains and insisted on looking “upon every one of their faces” of the slave children who were murdered. Who kept her cards close when she ” traded” Drogon for the unsullied. Who had no dragons and burned down the Dosh Khaleen. Underated again. I hope she’s about to use her greatest weapon …not Drogon, her mind!

    What is everyones take on “The Crypts ” season teaser now? Was Jons statue just old to throw us all off? How about him NOT riding Rheagal and not dying because he’s riding a horse? Ghost going north to live…and what else is in Branns head that makes him still relevant.? Some Targaryen lore or the location of the rest of the wildfire hidden under the city?

    When does Jon learn he will be a dad…or will he? We know Cersei’s baby is not plot armor for her, but Gilly and Sam’s is.

    Jaime and Brienne, Pod drinking after Tyrion asked Brienne if she were a virgin..

    Very very good writing keeping Arya and the Hound true to their characters. It was only a few seconds before her reply when I was yelling at the TV “That’s not me!”

    Anyone doubt now that Cersei isn’t the baddest bitch in town?

    How soon until Daenerys has Drogon roast Varys?

    What plan are her and Jon going to come up with on Dragon Stone? Only for it to just about fail and then for Jaime kill Cersei after the Mountain kills Arya and the Hound kills the Mountain?

    Who gets to kill that moron Qyburn? Lets just burn him after Tyrion gets his crossbow back to shoot Bronn.

    I think the door was left open for Yara to get revenge on her uncle. Notice how her retaking the Iron Islands and the New Prince of Dorne have declared?

    Last thoughts for now, Tormund, Sam and Ghost getting the happy endings they deserve. I love the thought of him running wild and free forever while poor Rheagal only survived the battle to fly one more time.

    Holy holy shi!

    And how did my call sign ( because I am a mother to one) become Queen Daenerys’ tittle as well? A dragon. Who is black. And will be impossible to see if she attacks at night. during a storm. Storm born.

  255. Damnit Jaime! You made Brienne ugly cry! I’m so confused by his leaving… is he leaving to defend Cersei or help Dany & Co.?

    Also, damnit Arya lol! You left poor lovesick puppy dog Gendry! 😅 Ah well, at least she left to join up with Sandor. That made me happy.

    Fucking Rhaegal though!!! That killed me. Missandei too… her last words were perfect.

  256. Nymeria the Wolf:
    Ok, does anyone feel that this week the story line was a bit forced? I mean Dany’s Army just casually heads to Dragonstone, no reconnaissance, no strategy. It didn’t occur to any of them that Cersei might have planned for this?? Did they just forget about the scorpions….

    I think it’s somewhat similar to what happened in the crypts last episode. It was pretty obvious that they should have anticipated the possibility of the Stark dead rising from their tombs (and made prep to either burn them or arm those seeking refuge in the crypts with dragonglass in case some escaped their vaults), but the writers wanted the visual of the Stark dead attacking the living, so…..

  257. Shy Lady Dragon:
    Pigeon,

    I have tried not to dislike Sansa, but she won’t let me.

    She has had some really good moments this season, but Lyanna Mormont was right to not know what name to call her in their first introduction – she’s becoming a Lannister quite well afterall, it seems.

    I wanted to throat punch so many people this episode. 😆

    Missandei’s last words were my sentiments exactly, I’m afraid. Not sure what the sweet part of the BS will be. Ah well, we’ll see. Thank the gods for Sandor, Tormund, and a few others tonight. 🥴

    Pod the apparent virgin hanging with the ladies was funny, I’ll grant that.

  258. Nadia:

    I feel for Dany but she was forcing Jon to be quiet in HER self interest. Sansa acted in HER self interest. They both were being power hungry.

    Agree. Meanwhile Jon-who has stated strongly he doesn’t want the throne at all and is doing everything in his power to keep his word even though he’s tired of all the damn fighting-is being used as their chew toy.
    I will say that Sansa swore to keep his secret before he let Bran tell them. Howland Reed never left the Neck and Ned suffered a lifetime of isolation and guilt and Cat’s VERY vocal jealousy and cruelty to his sister’s son in order to keep that secret that Sansa told to Tyrion within, what, an hour?
    She doesn’t seem to care that she could be putting Jon in greater danger as he’s being sent away, as well as, once again, going around his back to do something for her own self interest.

    From a Tully (family, duty, honor) or Stark (lone wolf dies but the pack survives) standpoint, you have to admit it was kind of a dick move.

  259. Tywin could help them sort this out. At least when he was around, you knew someone was in charge of all these people.

    Missandei just told Sansa that if it was not for the dragon queen they all would be dead. These writers, so naughty.

  260. Man, the Dany fans are salty tonight. Hoo boy!

    I can understand that the episode just finished and we’re all still a bit emotional. But check yourself, Dany fans.

    This is the same person that threatened to lay waste to Qarth when they dared maybe not letting her into their city. The same person who executed thousands in Astapor when she came into possession of the Unsullied. The same person who crucified hundreds of masters in Meereen for the decisions of a few (to crucify slave children on the road to Meereen), and then later had one of them who was likely totally uninvolved in Barristan’s death roasted and eaten by her dragons. The same person who could find no mercy for a defeated foe who refused to submit at the Loot Train battle.

    She has seen the consequences of her wrath from Hizdahr zo Lorak, Samwell Tarly, and others. And yet, she continues to submit to her vengeful impulses based solely on the fact that she believes herself entitled to rule over millions of people who don’t know the first thing about her, just because of who her father was.

    If you’re sitting here today telling the rest of us that this is unfair, that it was never hinted at or foreshadowed, well, all I have to say is that I don’t know what show you’ve been watching this whole time.

    Ask yourself this. If Dany goes into King’s Landing all fire and blood next episode, how is that any different than what Cersei did at the Sept of Baelor? In my opinion, they are one and the same. Dany has a softer heart, I’ll grant you, but in her wrath she becomes capable of the same blindness, injustice, and callousness that she rightly sees in Cersei; which she uses to convince herself that Cersei is unworthy of the throne. That Dany has a soft side will make precisely zero difference to the poor sods roasted in the Red Keep by dragon fire.

    It hasn’t happened yet. Dany has a chance to step back from the precipice, and in all likelihood, whatever the ending is, she will almost certainly have been right in warning Jon that his true identity would set in motion a chain of events that neither of them can stop.

  261. Dragonbringer:
    The Bastard,

    It’s butchery how the actions of dany will be equated to madness instead of vengeful..
    Let’s talk about varys and Sansa can we …
    In fact let’s talk about varys alone..
    Is the role of advisor to only ever keep on saying Not to do anything…is he ever offered a solution how to win over cersei..big help this guys where…

    And if people think that jon or tyrion or anyone else for that matter will not lose it after all this is simply ridiculous..

    Remember how Jon lost it and almost beat Ramsay to death with his own fists after losing JUST Rickon, with whom he wasn’t super close in the first place? Yet no one called him mad or was OH SO SCARED of him. Honestly, I was defending the show up until the previous episode, but after that one I’m not planning on watching it ever again. D&D are a couple of mysoginistic twats and deserve a special place in hell for butchering GRRM’s legacy like that.

  262. Starya: Burning the Red Keep where her enemies are is no different than humans have done in our very recent past when we bomb cities.

    *ahem* I am not aware that bombing cities occupied by the very people the government claims are their own is anything other than a vile action in civil war; one we now understand is a crime against humanity.

    Yes, it happens. But few would ever defend it. Many will abandon a leader who would order it.

    When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. When all you have it two (uhm, make that one) dragon, every problem looks like a stack of wood.

  263. Shy Lady Dragon:
    Mango,

    I’m so afraid Jaime won’t survive. I very much hope to be surprised

    Whatever happens, you and I will be fine.

    It is only a TV program.

    NCW was very happy with the end. So whatever happened with Jaime, he is happy. We should be as well.

    I think he will be fine. But I know less than Jon Snow.

  264. Theres a lot of brilliant elements of storytelling here…

    But its thrown in a bullet point fashion, and I’m getting intense whip lash.

  265. Steel_Wind,

    Arya is going to kill Dany…
    To protect Jon…now Im thinking Dany dying in childbirth would be better… and maybe its Jon riding Drogon over kings Landing in Brans vision. Someone said the KL set damage seemed from within..

    Will Jaime light the wildfire that he knows is there and choke Cersei with the smoke? Varys and Tyrion seem at odds but together they are still so desperately at the small council…whoever small council that is.

  266. RG,

    I think Arya left for Kingslanding to protect her brother. “You are my brother, not my half brother, not my bastard brother, my brother.” If Sansa saw Theon as her brother after all was said and done, I hardly think either of the girls would ever see Jon as anything but their true brother. He is still family, a part of the pack.

  267. Ginevra: I’d always hoped (more far-fetched than the stone kings) that Azor Ahai would wake the dragons from stone at Dragonstone

    I have theorized here that the virus that attacked Shireen and Jorah is the agent the turns living beings into stone. Some particles lingering from when Dragonstone was built attacked a vulnerable baby.

    GRMM points out more than once the uniqueness and lifelike appearance of the gargoyles of Dragonstone. If creatures were turned into gargoyles, so also dragons were bestoned into the walls of Dragonstone. Dragon stone. If the dragons can be destoned, Dany can replenish her mobile hot fire delivery system.

  268. Mango: I assumed that the magic characters would leave Westeros but I was surprised when Arya announced that she was not coming back to WF.

    Yeah, what was up with that? So maybe she intends to do something dangerous but she’s never been one to think she’ll die trying. So if she doesn’t where does she intend to go? Yeah, I’ve wanted her story to end by going West of Westeros, but not alone and not forever. She’s been talking about family and unity for a while now but she’s just leaving?

  269. Aryamad:
    Damnit Jaime! You made Brienne ugly cry! I’m so confused by his leaving… is he leaving to defend Cersei or help Dany & Co.?

    Also, damnit Arya lol! You left poor lovesick puppy dog Gendry! Ah well, at least she left to join up with Sandor. That made me happy.

    Fucking Rhaegal though!!! That killed me. Missandei too… her last words were perfect.

    I laugh aloud when Jaime declared to Brienne that he was taking her blouse off. That was the funniest moment of the whole episode.

  270. Vinga,

    Wait, so people think this theme isn’t going to play out like this in the books too? This is classic GRRM and exactly the type of conflict he intended. And guess what, most fans are on Dany’s side. Hell, I’m rooting for her to light that shit up next week. Go out in a blaze of glory. Better than what is likely for Jon. Left his wolf behind. He is headed to his death.

    This thing is ending with Tyrion on the throne.

  271. RG: Agree. Meanwhile Jon-who has stated strongly he doesn’t want the throne at all and is doing everything in his power to keep his word even though he’s tired of all the damn fighting-is being used as their chew toy.
    I will say that Sansa swore to keep his secret before he let Bran tell them. Howland Reed never left the Neck and Ned suffered a lifetime of isolation and guilt and Cat’s VERY vocal jealousy and cruelty to his sister’s son in order to keep that secret that Sansa told to Tyrion within, what, an hour?
    She doesn’t seem to care that she could be putting Jon in greater danger as he’s being sent away, as well as, once again, going around his back to do something for her own self interest.

    From a Tully (family, duty, honor) or Stark (lone wolf dies but the pack survives) standpoint, you have to admit it was kind of a dick move.

    Unless she thinks (probably correctly) that getting Tyrion on Jon’s side is the best way to keep him safe.

  272. krupke: I think it’s somewhat similar to what happened in the crypts last episode.

    Really? Were you watching Episode 03 and surprised in the least when the dead came to life in the crypts?

    Nope. You were not. No viewer was. The falsity of it being safe was underscored by the repeated declaration. We all expected it.

    Now: hold on to the “told ya” feeling you had when the Dead started Walking in the crypts below Winterfell.

    Is that the same feeling you had when the 2 dragons soared screeching towards Dragonstone — and one of them was shredded before our eyes?!?

    No it was not. We were not expecting that. At all. It was logical, reasonable and entirely defensible. And we were not expecting it. And Dany wasn’t either. She was flying low enough she didn’t see the ships deliberately hiding in the lee of the island. It was a believable setup.

    A Song of Ice and Fire is at its best when people act out of their own motivations and nature, in logical ways, which lead to colliding trajectories and unexpected conflict and shocking moments of death.

    The death of Rhaegal was not expected by anybody tonight. That is not the same thing as the crypts last week; not a bit and not at all.

  273. Dee Stark,

    As a huge fan of American Gods, I can say that season 2 was disappointing. I loved season 1 and watched it for several times. Season 2 seemed somehow pointless, repetitive. I do enjoy witty dialogues and philosophical debates, but I felt that some of them had brought nothing new. They have plenty of material in the book, but they seem to postpone going farther. I still don’t call season 2 bad, but not as good as the first and not as charming.

  274. Clob: Sentences one and two seem to clash… 😜

    I’m not seeing Sansa trying to go after the Iron Throne for herself. It seems to me like she’d be perfectly happy if the Starks and the other northerners were just left alone up there.

  275. Finally finished and will go back and read the comments but… we all agree that was absolutely awful in almost every way right?

  276. Vinga: Remember how Jon lost it and almost beat Ramsay to death with his own fists after losing JUST Rickon, with whom he wasn’t super close in the first place? Yet no one called him mad or was OH SO SCARED of him. Honestly, I was defending the show up until the previous episode, but after that one I’m not planning on watching it ever again. D&D are a couple of mysoginistic twats and deserve a special place in hell for butchering GRRM’s legacy like that.

    You are not being rational. Actually, you are being downright insulting and accusing people you don’t know the first thing about of misogyny and wishing them a place in hell.

    Seriously, calm down.

  277. I won’t read anything yet finished the episode yet. But this is everything 8xo3 shoulda been.

  278. Steel_Wind: Not sure if you have been keeping score, but the methods for her tocarry out an order to “kill Jon” have largely been frittered away.

    Jon has the army. Not her. The only one left who would follow Dany’s orders are Grey Worm. She has nobody else. Varys wouldnt’ do it; Tyrion would not do it. Are you betting Drogon would do it?

    That’s not a bet I would make.

    And Jon’s army is as big as hers.No. Dany is not going to have a dagger put through Jon’s heart unless she is prepared to do it herself.And I don’t see that happening, either.

    Dany is not sitting on that Throne in 2 weeks time. She’s not going to win the GoT.When she is no longer deemed the best option on the Throne, she will, in the end, be betrayed.

    Sansa knew it would happen. She told Tyrion and left the rest to her certain knowledge of the feckless nature of all men.

    Good point.

    Daenerys has a dragon and Jon does not have any ballistas. If she wanted to kill him it would not be hard – unless Drogon refuses her orders.

  279. Jaime leaving Brienne was a plot development I actually loved (ok… wrong word)…

    There is absolutely no way… that a man who was been in a DECADES long incestuous love affair with his psychopathic twin sister could ever have a normal romantic relationship with any other person… Jaime is still a broken person and to a certain extent always will be.

    His self loathing was really hard to watch 🙁

  280. Danny,

    I know it’s popular to hate Sansa but why can’t people accept that just maybe
    1) she loves Jon – she said he’s as much Ned Starks son as any of them
    2) she thinks he’d be better – she said it to Tyrion
    3) she doesn’t even want him to go South
    4) if he decides to – and that was his decision not hers – then who he is makes things better for the North

    Not clear how that makes her terrible – or any more terrible than Dany, who was trying to get Jon to pick her over his family so she could have the throne?

  281. Aryamad,

    Oh, he’s going to kill Cersei. “I’m hateful too!”

    Gods, the Deadpool is going to be so big next week. Jon,Cersei,Jaime,Varys,The Hound…I’m not ready.

  282. Mango:
    Tywin could help them sort this out. At least when he was around, you knew someone was in charge of all these people.

    Missandei just told Sansa that if it was not for the dragon queen they all would be dead. These writers, so naughty.

    Tywin would have sent his troops up north to help. He was practical.

  283. Big-picture: After all the Lannister swagger throughout this story with The Rains of Castamere, isn’t it inevitable that their house will be erased from Westeros when everything is said and done? Jamie consumated his love for someone other than Cersei and had the reward of lying (not dying) in the arms of someone that truly loves him. Now he seems poised to die killing his sister… Tyrion seems poised to go down with Dany’s ship… he literally did, tonight. Figurative foreshadowing?

  284. Laura:
    Finally finished and will go back and read the comments but… we all agree that was absolutely awful in almost every way right?

    Nope. Wrong.

  285. i’m pausing it but man.. braime scene and naval attack scene with tyrion i already like it better than the last one
    i’ll say again. I thought Jaime and Brienne would be awkward but it wasn’t. It was beautiful. I am now satisfied. Wow. I thought I just wanted them to love each other and never express it but it was done well.

  286. Vinga,

    Are you equating pummeling one person to death to burning thousands alive? You are not. Are you? The math here is not the same. Not one person would say anything if Daenerys dracarys Cersei and Euron to a crisp, I think people have a problem with the burning of an entire city full of civilians who had nothing to do with Cersei’s actions. I get Daenery’s being furious at Cersei and Euron, they deserve whatever cruelty she may wish to bestow upon them – but if she burns Kingslanding, the only natural reaction of those in the Kingdoms will be to see her as the Queen of Ashes, they will fear her but not love her or respect her. And fear can be overcome which means her reign would be short.

  287. HousePotterz: Man, the Dany fans are salty tonight. Hoo boy!

    Yes they do certainly seem to be. Even when they are now backing someone who knows she is an usurper with no claim to the Throne.

    There really is no getting around that inconvenient truth. The Iron Throne is not hers.

  288. Mango: Good point.

    Daenerys has a dragon and Jon does not have any ballistas. If she wanted to kill him it would not be hard – unless Drogon refuses her orders.

    Drogon won’t burn Jon. There will probably be a scene where she tells Drogon to burn Jon alive and the dragon won’t do it.

  289. The Bastard: Tywin would have sent his troops up north to help.He was practical.

    He would have.

    Perhaps gone up himself to see to the battle plan. Maybe the Dothraki would still be alive!!

  290. The Bastard: Drogon won’t burn Jon.There will probably be a scene where she tells Drogon to burn Jon alive and the dragon won’t do it.

    Haha!

    Bad dragon! Disobeying your mommy…

  291. HelloThere:
    Theres a lot of brilliant elements of storytelling here…

    But its thrown in a bullet point fashion, and I’m getting intense whip lash.

    Probably the best description of it so far! 😁

  292. Rickard Greyjoy,

    Ok now it went from great to confusing. How did Manandei get from the ship wreck to Cersei’s court so fast or am I missing something?

  293. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Sandor seems to want to die after killing his brother – “I’m not planning on coming back.” Noone seems to get what they want or think they deserve. I can see Sandor surviving the story, especially because he doesn’t seem to care to.

    True, I can also see him dying while killing his brother.

  294. Aryamad,

    Imo we are deliberately mislead into thinking that Jaime left because of love for Cersei, when he was going because of hatred. Both for her and that side of him which had loved her.
    It seems that I’m trying to make this explanation come true by repeating it.
    I was also sorry for Arya and Gendry parting ways, but glad that she was travelling with the Hound again.

  295. Vinga,

    You think that Jon beating Ramsey is akin to slaughtering/ burning tens of thousands of innocents to get revenge?

    Wow.

    Just… wow.

  296. flintstonewielder: Nope. Wrong.

    I have never once hated an ep of GoT and I hated this one from stem to stern. The dialogue, my god. So much corniness, I could not take it. But to each their own…

  297. HelloThere:
    Jaime leaving Brienne was a plot development I actually loved (ok… wrong word)…

    There is absolutely no way… that a man who was been in a DECADES long incestuous love affair with his psychopathic twin sister could ever have a normal romantic relationship with any other person… Jaime is still a broken person and to a certain extent always will be.

    His self loathing was really hard to watch

    Let us see how it works out.

    Jaime like Tyrion like Cersei are Lannisters – none of them are pushovers. All share a cunning ruthlessness – even the knight of the seven kingdoms.

    Jaime is not a broken man. As Tyrion told him, he always knew what Cersei was. The thing that nearly destroyed him was killing Aeyrs and the social rejection after that.

    In most situations, he is the sanest man in the room.

  298. I didn’t like the previous episode, but this episode and episode 2 were really good. But I feel sad about Rhaegal and Missandei. I expected Rhaegal to be killed by Euron this episode because something had to happen. But I didn’t expect Missandei to be killed. Poor GreyWorm, having to see that!
    Not surprised by Dany, I expected this to happen after ser Jorah died. He was the only one who really loved her and who could have guided her to do the right thing.
    Arya becoming a lady was never going to happen, she’s much more like Sandor. I feel sorry for Gendry.
    I wonder how it all is going to end. Dany, Drogon, Cersei, Euron and The Mountain are all going to die. But I hope not too many others are going to die as well. Besides the bitter, I want something sweet too in the end.

  299. Much better episode this week.

    The living in this series are so much more effective at killing than the Night King. Winter or summer, the many faced god gets fed regularly by our cast of characters.

  300. weirwoodtreehugger: I’m not seeing Sansa trying to go after the Iron Throne for herself.It seems to me like she’d be perfectly happy if the Starks and the other northerners were just left alone up there.

    Not the Iron Throne but power in general. Power was the word you used. I don’t know what you think she’s doing if it’s not about her Power in the North. She keeps talking about Independence and calling them “her people,” while Jon hasn’t been pushing for such a thing.

  301. There is no way Tywin would’ve sent troops to help defeat the AOTD. When he thought the threat to the realm was the Wildlings, his thinking was that they’d kill each other no matter who won, they’d be weakened. Cersei, by not joining the truce and helping out was just being her father’s daughter.

  302. Mango,

    That was pretty great. Argh, he finally won me over as a suitor for Brienne then he left her crying. I wanna shake him.

  303. Nadia,

    Oh, I don’t think Sansa is terrible here. I have my issues with her and I never fully trust her but she’s playing the game, same as the other queens. Sansa, Daenerys and Cersei are all fighting for what they care the most:

    Sansa – Her family, the North and safety and security.
    Daenerys – The Iron Throne which she sees as somehow belonging to her. If she ends up getting it, she will sit there as the Queen of Ashes and she’ll come to realize that it wasn’t worth it.
    Cersei – The Iron Throne which to her represents the recognition and validation that she always wanted from her father. If Daenerys thinks she has sacrifice everything for the Throne, Cersei has some stories to tell her.

    People talk about the many losses suffered by Daenerys and how everyone would break in her shoes – well may be people should remember that the remaining Starks lost: Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Rickon, Master Lewyn, Rodrick Cassel, Jory, Septa Mordana, Old Nan, Hodor, Lady, Summer and Grey Wind. Everyone has lost and sacrifice.

  304. Steel_Wind,

    I think the OP was inferring that the Dragonstone ambush SHOULD have been anticipated by the characters like possible problems with the dead in the crypts SHOULD have been anticipated by the characters. As an audience member I wasn’t particularly surprised by either. As I said, I think the writers were going for a certain visual in each situation.

  305. Steel_Wind: Really? Were you watching Episode 03 and surprised in the least when the dead came to life in the crypts?

    Nope. You were not. No viewer was. The falsity of it being safe was underscored by the repeated declaration. We all expected it.

    Now: hold on to the “told ya” feeling you had when the Dead started Walking in the crypts below Winterfell.

    Is that the same feeling you had when the 2 dragons soared screeching towards Dragonstone — and one of them was shredded before our eyes?!?

    No it was not. We were not expecting that. At all. It was logical, reasonable and entirely defensible. And we were not expecting it. And Dany wasn’t either. She was flying low enough she didn’t see the ships deliberately hiding in the lee of the island. It was a believable setup.

    A Song of Ice and Fire is at its best when people act out of their own motivations and nature, in logical ways, which lead to colliding trajectories and unexpected conflict and shocking moments of death.

    The death of Rhaegal was not expected by anybody tonight. That is not the same thing as the crypts last week; not a bit and not at all.

    With respect, they have the Three Eyed Raven, a wizard who can see anywhere in the world at any time. The fact that they didn’t think to ask him what Cersei was planning and maybe help scout the way for them is absurd. The writers are just relying on people to forget Bran exists because they made him overpowered for human conflict and they need to even the odds so it isn’t too easy even though no one believes for half a second Cersei will win. And it’s worked, I guess, as apparently people find it perfectly reasonable and logical that they’d just sail south blind, even though Euron has ambushed them before and they know he’s out there. They needed to kill a dragon and Missandei to finally push Dany over the edge. Screw it if they had to make our characters into idiots yet again to make it happen.

  306. Laura: I have never once hated an ep of GoT and I hated this one from stem to stern. The dialogue, my god. So much corniness, I could not take it. But to each their own…

    Exactly.
    Don´t put the rest of us in your hate stewpot.

  307. Danaerys should depart f*ng Westeros and leave the ungrateful Starks to Cersei and Euron. Good luck to Sansa because Cersei still hates her.

    She can come back and avenge Missandei when she is not expected and after she raises a new army.

  308. Clob: Not the Iron Throne but power in general.Power was the word you used.I don’t know what you think she’s doing if it’s not about her Power in the North.She keeps talking about Independence and calling them “her people,” while Jon hasn’t been pushing for such a thing.

    Don’t think her motivation is power. She got a taste of Sothron politics and doesn’t want to be under their thumb anymore. There’s no indication that she wants anything but an independent North and security for the people there. There’s a difference between wanting power and wanting not to be subjugated.

  309. Rickard Greyjoy:
    Rickard Greyjoy,

    Ok now it went from great to confusing. How did Manandei get from the ship wreck to Cersei’s court so fast or am I missing something?

    I heard someone else say this: Grey Worm told her to get in the skiff (small boat) so when the rest of them (those on Dany’s ships) were going into the water, she was left floating in this little boat and easy for Euron & Co to pick up. To be honest, I missed some of that scene but I was wondering the same thing. I assume Cersei’s little birds filled her in on who Missandei was.

  310. Laura,

    I think it was pretty much broadcasting what will happen in the final episodes. Some of the character dialogue seemed pretty fatalistic to me.

  311. I’ve always rooted for Dany, and for Jon (separately, not necessarily together). But I don’t think it’s somehow contrived for her character to evolve into a different incarnation of her father’s daughter and no, I don’t think she’ll win the throne. But I could be wrong, and that’s okay too.

    She is who she is because of both birth and circumstance. I wouldn’t believe it if she were entirely benevolent. Unlike Jon, who grew up surrounded by honor and love (even if he was looking in from the outside), Dany grew up with the anger and hate her brother fed to her, with revenge and power as the only things worth living for. Because of her own lack of power in her upbringing, she has a soft spot for slaves and the disenfranchised, which softens her and makes her more relatable. But since the earliest days, she’s also displayed a sort of ruthlessness.

    She supported Drogo’s method of killing her brother, the cruelty of which we easily forgave because he was cruel himself. We looked past how she murdered the Dothraki khals, because they had kidnapped her. But she didn’t kill them to escape, she could have done that easily enough without bloodshed. But she wanted their warriors, warriors she believed were hers because Drogo had promised them to her. Unlike the Unsullied and the people of Mereen, the Dothraki were not slaves and the Khals were not their captors. She conquered them and burned them alive for her own power-seeking purposes.

    I still haven’t yet figured out exactly why power is so important to her. Originally I assumed it was because she wanted to assume her birthright and restore what she perceived was stolen from her family, even though the Mad King basically gave it away. Perhaps growing up under the threat of assassination makes one feel like safety only comes with power.

    Still, the Iron Throne is no longer her birthright and she is no longer the only member of her family left. I didn’t blame her for her original reaction, but she’s had time to digest this now. If her goal is peace and prosperity for the people, insisting that Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryan step aside – and lie – for her is pure ego.

    The throne is no longer her duty. She’s seen that Jon’s respected and honored among many different people. That Westeros is his homeland. It makes sense that it’s hard for her to let go of her ambition, but her insistence that he forgo not only the throne but his name says a lot.

    I don’t think D&D or GGRM or anyone else are turning her into a villain per se. One thing GOT has often done well is to show that even our heros are not always good and our villains aren’t always entirely evil. They are all on a spectrum, from Ramsey to Euron to Cercei to Theon to The Hound to Jaime to Sansa to Dany to Arya to Tyrion to Jon to Brienne.

    They are all flawed in different ways and because of different reasons. Even with Ramsey we saw moments where you could see how desperately he wanted the love and acceptance of his father.

    If Dany does end up on the Throne, my guess is its only because Jon dies. Because only then does she have a legitimate right to it. And the bittersweet part will be that she got what she always wanted, but only because she loses Jon.

    Still, I hope it’s Jon at the end. It probably won’t be, but it would be nice. Or an alliance of Kingdoms, instead of one ruler.

  312. No it was not. We were not expecting that. At all. It was logical, reasonable and entirely defensible. And we were not expecting it. And Dany wasn’t either. She was flying low enough she didn’t see the ships deliberately hiding in the lee of the island. It was a believable setup.

    I know it’s easy to say this after the fact, but I saw that coming once the scene lingered on their arrival there and how careless they were all being. There couldn’t be any other purpose for doing that. But I was expecting the scorpions to be on Dragonstone itself where it would be more plausible that Dany, or the dragons themselves, didn’t see them first.

    We didn’t expect it before the episode only because we assume the characters aren’t stupid.

  313. At this point right now I don’t think I want any of them ruling on the fucking throne.

    Even if Jon ends up with it by himself he’d be miserable. Do you want a lonely, sad AeJon forced by a sense of duty on the throne at the end?

    AS THEY HAVE THEM RIGHT NOW on the show I don’t know if Daenerys or Cersei, or Sansa for that matter, is any better than the other. They’re all pretty bitter and damaged at the moment. I will cross Cersei off cuz that B gots to go!

  314. Laura: Finally finished and will go back and read the comments but… we all agree that was absolutely awful in almost every way right?

    I don’t agree.

  315. Amaryllis:
    Danaerys should depart f*ng Westeros and leave the ungrateful Starks to Cersei and Euron.Good luck to Sansa because Cersei still hates her.

    She can come back and avenge Missandei when she is not expected and after she raises a new army.

    Ya, I’m sure Essos is in love w/ her too, with one city rebelling after another.

    She should just off herself, that’d be a happy ending.

  316. HelloThere:
    Pigeon,

    I feel like I am just reading the “ASOAIF_GRRM_Ending.doc” notes D&D took all those years ago.

    Ha! And you know what? I love it! This was the most the show has felt like GRRM’s story in quite a long time. And that’s not a knock on the show, necessarily. It’s just thematically, it was spot on. I wish they would have had more episodes to let it play out!

  317. flintstonewielder: Exactly.
    Don´t put the rest of us in your hate stewpot.

    I am just kind of shocked people liked that episode For me, the first 2/3 were extreme audience pandering and the last 3rd was just one stomach turner after another to make you so mad going in to the final eps that you’re screaming for Cersei’s head, if you weren’t before.

    but I promise it’s just me here stewing away in my own pot lol I promise not to try to pull anyone in. Don’t get me wrong, I wanted to love the episode, truly. It just didn’t click for me and I guess I’m in the minority.

  318. Aryamad:
    Mango,

    That was pretty great. Argh, he finally won me over as a suitor for Brienne then he left her crying. I wanna shake him.

    Yes, I can see that.

    The thing that caught my attention was that their sex scene was in Ep 4 instead of later so I expected some drama after. It makes sense that something happened. They could not spend two episodes smooching at this point in the series.

    I was also shocked that they said he would stay in WF with Brienne. That would mean he was out of the series – living at WF doing nothing. I thought it was impossible.

    So some context would need to take him back to KL. Making Brienne cry is not useful for him in the future; she has a big ass sword that he gave her, she is going cut off bits of him when she sees him next.

    I hope they do not go for the Jaime dead with Brienne pregnant path. Too many pregnant people – I hope she drinks some moon tea with quickness.

  319. Leuf: because we assume the characters aren’t stupid.

    I question that assumption quite a bit it seems 😉

  320. Clob:
    At this point right now I don’t think I want any of them ruling on the fucking throne.

    Even if Jon ends up with it by himself he’d be miserable.Do you want a lonely, sad AeJon forced by a sense of duty on the throne at the end?

    AS THEY HAVE THEM RIGHT NOW on the show I don’t know if Daenerys or Cersei, or Sansa for that matter, is any better than the other.They’re all pretty bitter and damaged at the moment.I will cross Cersei off cuz that B gots to go!

    I am missing Tywin – these guys still in the story are downright disorderly.

  321. Vinga,

    And now, Dany is a plot device all along to this “ King in the hiding” to have a conflict about love and duty . OMG

  322. Stimpy Stark,

    Right?

    Season 1: she was ok with people burning her brother; then she trusted a witch, that literally everyone told her not to, the witch was wrong, she then burned the witch.

    Season 2: she locked Xaro in a vault with Doreah, who was her friend. She let the Dothraki take everything from Xaro. And she burns the wizard of the house of the undying. Just because she needed support and money to go to Westeros.

    Season 3 and 4: she free the slaves, but kills a lot of masters and alabês, when she enters the arena burning everything. Her dragons are locked up for a few episodes, but then she releases them. And uses them.

    I could go on and on and on.. but, really, when did Dany choose to be other then violent?! She was never “political”. All her “political” decisions lasted few episodes, until the results were not the ones that she liked, then she used the dragons. Or just the fire. She did that all the 7 seasons.

    How come people say that her character is out of line/sync in 8th season?! I’m not saying that she is turning “made, but she is a tyrant. Always been, even when she released the slaves…

  323. Che,

    Imo Tyrion had guessed that Cersei was going to pretend the baby was Euron’s and tried to make Euron see it as well to break their alliance.

  324. What a fucking epic episode that was! Not what I expected :O

    So much for the Gendry/Arya relationship eh? That was just a one night stand! However, looks like Arya and Sandor are back on another road trip again. Pretty obvious what’s going to happen there? He has unfinished business and we all know what that is – Cleganbowl time 😉

    As for the scorpion attack on the dragons and Rhaegal get killed, Dany made a big error there? On seeing that, she should have come in behind the ships rather than face on to the scorpions and then done her ‘Dracarys’ routine.

    What else – So Brienne has finally lost her virginity also. I never expected that to happen either. I reckon Jaime left her in Winterfell, not to go back to Cersei as her lover but to finish her off! He said she’s a hateful person and so am I – and that was after him and Tyrion meeting up with Bronn and his crossbow. So he knows Cersei wants him and Tyrion dead?

    Was sad to see Missandai executed and from Grey Worm and Dany’s anger, it goes without saying what’s going to happen in Ep5… Kings Landing will be toasted! Shit is going to hit the fan :p

  325. Mango,

    Ohhhh maybe the Hound takes out the Mountain. arya can waist Qyburn and either someone else or she can wear his face to get to Cersei

  326. weirwoodtreehugger: Don’t think her motivation is power.She got a taste of Sothron politics and doesn’t want to be under their thumb anymore.There’s no indication that she wants anything but an independent North and security for the people there.There’s a difference between wanting power and wanting not to be subjugated.

    She’s been badly misused and damaged, and that might be where it comes from, but there are a lot of clues that she has absorbed a bit too much from her time with Cersei and Littlefinger for me to think her motives are about freedom for her people. She pushes too hard for me to believe that’s the case. Power might mean safety for her, which is understandable. But power, at least over the North and it’s allies-Vale/Riverun–and now Jon being king because she knows he will give that to her–seems to me to be what she wants.

    “You almost sound as if you admire her” “I learned a great deal from her”
    “In his own way I think he (LF) loved me”
    “Without LF and Ramsay and the rest, I would have stayed a little bird.”

    ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Agree with all of this.

  327. Laura,

    No, everyone doesn’t agree with you and no, there’s nothing wrong with people who don’t agree with you. Your individual opinion of the show is as valid as anyone else’s, and it’s great fun to debate plot points or theories or character motivations. But it isn’t fun when people not only wholesale dismiss the episode but denigrate anyone who liked it.

  328. Jack Bauer 24,

    I still think the lack of characters interacting with/touching Ghost is more of a technical (CGI) issue than anything else. I’m sure they’d utilize him more if they could make it look realistic. At this point, I’m just glad he’s still alive.

  329. HelloThere:
    Pigeon,

    I feel like I am just reading the “ASOAIF_GRRM_Ending.doc” notes D&D took all those years ago.

    Haha! I just got that scene from “Office Space” in my head, where they’re waiting for the little file to transfer over to a different folder on the computer. *flutterflutterflutter*

  330. Vinga,

    Why would people consider Jon mad for wanting to kill an awful character like Ramsay? And why are you and so many others pretending like this isn’t the ending GRRM told D&D?

  331. Just want to add this.
    Missandei is very peaceful by nature. She even underscores that in talk with Grey Worm about where she’s from. So when she said, “Dracarys” right before she died, I was instantly horrified, imagining what she must have experienced since being taken captive by Euron and Cersei for those to be her last words.
    Also Grey Worm’s expression made me ache for him.
    This is not going to be pretty.

  332. Great show! Really loved the episode.
    Now Dany has the biggest challenge in front of her. If she just follows her emotions, attacks and burns KL, then… she is not suited to be the Queen. And then she is betrayed and assasinated, as it would happen in real life.

    If she is a true leader, she should be careful, strategic and calculating. Solidify her alliances. Bring allied armies from all around Seven Kingdoms – not only North, but also Vale, Dorne, Stormlands, Iron Islands. Lay siege to Kings Landing. Burn the Iron Fleet at the right moment, when Euron does not expect an attack (they cannot be ready to defend against dragons 24/7 – hit them at night with dragon, several times if needed, and the fleet will be destroyed).

    Wait for city to starve, mutiny, and then do a precision strike on Cersei (either by dragon or by sending assasins). That’s what a smart leader would do. Slow, careful and smart victory. With minimal civilian casualities. And minimal damage to Dany’s reputation.

    If she just blindly follows her emotions, goes full Mad Queen… Well, then she shouldn’t sit on the Iron Throne. True leaders are tested in their darkest moments. And Dany seems to fail that test so far.

  333. I know Jon is getting shit for giving Ghost away. That was BS. But it has always been par for the course as far as the show goes. The connection between the Starks and their wolves was never established, outside of Bran. I hope Tormund takes care of him. Why the hell they didn’t just have Jon leave him with Sansa to protect her is beyond me.

    That is my only complaint about the episode.

  334. Black Raven:
    What a fucking epic episode that was! Not what I expected :O

    So much for the Gendry/Arya relationship eh? That was just a one night stand! However, looks like Arya and Sandor are back on another road trip again. Pretty obvious what’s going to happen there? He has unfinished business and we all know what that is – Cleganbowl time

    As for the scorpion attack on the dragons and Rhaegal get killed, Dany made a big error there? On seeing that, she should have come in behind the ships rather than face on to the scorpions and then done her ‘Dracarys’ routine.

    What else – So Brienne has finally lost her virginity also. I never expected that to happen either. I reckon Jaime left her in Winterfell, not to go back to Cersei as her lover but to finish her off! He said she’s a hateful person and so am I – and that was after him and Tyrion meeting up with Bronn and his crossbow. So he knows Cersei wants him and Tyrion dead?

    Was sad to see Missandai executed and from Grey Worm and Dany’s anger, it goes without saying what’s going to happen in Ep5… Kings Landing will be toasted! Shit is going to hit the fan :p

    I knew that no one could escape HBO with their virginity intact.

    Jaime literally shoved Tormund when he decided to help HBO with this recalcitrant knight.

    Tyrion is very nosy.

  335. Clob,

    I always figured that Jon would have a sad ending because I’ve always seen him as the sacrificial hero of the story. He didn’t die trying to kill the NK so if it isn’t his existence that he gives away, it will be his life he sacrifices for duty’s sake. He loves Dany but “he would choose to do what’s right.” He has been the most consistent of characters in terms of his morality.

    On the other hand, there’s Ghost heading to the real North and I’ve always associated Ghost’s survival with Jon’s survival. Tormund told Jon that he belongs in the real north and Jon told him to take Ghost (and Rhaegal died) with him. It might be that Jon does what Jon has to do and then tell everyone to fck themselves and leaves everything behind to reunite with Tormund and Ghost. Maybe he ends up with Val in the books. That may be as happy an ending as he may be able to have.

  336. I think at this point the GC or something has to turn on Cersei. She paid off her debts, has a giant obedient zombie and a fleet of evil ships, she was right about not helping with the NK because she didn’t pay any consequences for that at all, and now she’s killed Rhaegal and Missandei.
    I’m ready for her to suffer a setback or ten before her hopefully eventual demise.

  337. Danny,

    I don’t allow myself to think Jon will be alive in the end. And I still don’t believe it. I’m prepared for him to die next week. I just hope he has a worthy and poignant death.

  338. Danny,

    How sad is it that at this point that’s one of the best of his quickly dwindling options? He was happy with the Wildlings, and they’re really the only ones who get him and support him, other than Davos.
    I really feel like Jon’s character has been given a raw deal, despite all the temporary promotions.

  339. JamesL: And why are you and so many others pretending like this isn’t the ending GRRM told D&D?

    Ask that question of people when we get to the full ending (that George would have told them). There’s still a lot happening on the show that I’m pretty certain wouldn’t have been included in anything he told them. Having not written his ending yet I don’t think George would have had a lot of specifics. They also started writing this season two years ago while George was and continues to struggle completing the sixth book.

  340. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    Laura,

    No, everyone doesn’t agree with you and no, there’s nothing wrong with people who don’t agree with you. Your individual opinion of the show is as valid as anyone else’s, and it’s great fun to debate plot points or theories or character motivations. But it isn’t fun when people not only wholesale dismiss the episode but denigrate anyone who liked it.

    Listen I am not trying to fight anyone or call your opinions bad. But you could also calm down a little. it was fairly obvious from my posts i wasn’t meaning harm to anyone who liked the ep. My beef is with the writing, not you.

    And if you’re gonna come back with a “well that’s not how you made me feel” post, just save it. Some people are just out here always trying to fight on the internet. I’m not. I truly thought most here would not like the episode because I didn’t think it was great and I’ve literally loved most episodes of the series so I am def not hard to please. I’m never out here ragging on the show – I am always gassing it up. So your righteous indignation is misplaced.

  341. If Jon is the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch in the end, looking over the Wall with Ghost, I will punch my own face.

  342. I just noticed that the Episode title is live: “The Last of the Starks”.

    Arya says she’s never coming back (sob), Bran is still a robot, and Jon’s a Targaryan.

    Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell, first of her name, last of her name.

  343. We’ll find out soon enough, but my personal head canon right now is this ends with Tyrion and Varys and Sansa and whoever scheming successfully to put Jon on the throne, but he tells them to screw themselves, his watch has ended, he’s tired of fighting, and as he told Tyrion a while back, why would anyone want to live in King’s Landing? He fulfills his final pledge, to fight for Daenerys because she fought for him, and after that he owes nothing to anybody. Return to the real north with Ghost and Tormund, his true friends. Let Sansa have Winterfell and Tyrion or Varys or whoever else can have fun with the damn Iron Throne. Put Robin Arryn on it, for all he cares.

    GRRM wanted to subvert Tolkein, so here’s Aragorn in reverse. Born to be the king, does everything he can to unite people, and they beg him to take the throne, but all he really ever wanted to be was a Ranger.

  344. RG,
    Jon has never been truly happy.

    I wouldn’t say he was happy with the Wildlings at all. Sure, he had a tryst with a girl for the first time, but he wasn’t being treated well by any of the others – books even less so. It also never felt like he enjoyed trapesing around out in the cold either.

  345. RG:
    Just want to add this.
    Missandei is very peaceful by nature. She even underscores that in talk with Grey Worm about where she’s from. So when she said, “Dracarys” right before she died, I was instantly horrified, imagining what she must have experienced since being taken captive by Euron and Cersei for those to be her last words.
    Also Grey Worm’s expression made me ache for him.
    This is not going to be pretty.

    Exactly! Missandei, the quiet, peaceful, stoic, intelligent and resilient woman of so many seasons, telling Dany to burn this shit down was quite a moment. Coming from her…she is done with the game. Be a dragon.

  346. Pigeon:
    If Jon is the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch in the end, looking over the Wall with Ghost, I will punch my own face.

    There is no more Night’s Watch. Actually, a decent final scene would be Jon flying north with Drogon after Daenerys dies to tear down the rest of the wall.

  347. Danny,

    I’m convinced that if Jon doesn’t die in the end, he’d head north and reunite with Ghost. I also thought of Val after his farewell scene with Tormund, with Tormund reminding him he’s got the North in him. Tormund also told him that just like Ghost, Jon would be happy up north. I didn’t consider this ending for Jon before the start of the season but now this seems possible…

  348. Just imagine the stories Tormund is going to tell about the size of the direwolf he impregnated to end up with Ghost as his son.

  349. Clob,

    I know. But he was a little happier. lol
    And since Tormund has been in charge, they’ve definitely been on his side all the way.
    Compared to everyone else who yells “Yay Lord Commander!” but “Never mind we hate you”
    and “King in the North!” but “No wait, we like your sister”
    or
    “I love you!” but “Please be someone else”
    it’s a nice change.
    I just think Jon deserves some loyalty. And a nice break from all the fighting. (A living break specifically lol)

  350. Ok so all this talk of Dany being mad is really quite tiring from my perspective. She has dragons, they’re fierce and rain destruction, she is a conqueror…..using these tools does not make her mad. As Olenna Tyrell said, you’re a dragon so be a dragon. Her top adversary is cersei, who I think makes a much more complete picture for madness, and she will not be removed by any other means than violence. This constant hand wringing on the show over Dany and oh no is she gonna go mad, I’m losing tolerance. Y’all hitched your ride to a conqueror who flies on dragons, folks are gonna get burned. Also Sansa is supposed to be a budding genius, but then goes and breaks her solemn promise to Jon. Why is that a bad move? He’s the one character above all else who honors the value of an oath with near worshipful regard, so breaking that oath only makes her a genius if her intent was to destroy their relationship. I’m not sure if it’s the smartest way of getting Jon above Dany for the throne. Also the dislike and distrust Sansa has for Dany seems sorta soapy, based on weak evidence, not well thought out.

  351. Adam: There is no more Night’s Watch. Actually, a decent final scene would be Jon flying north with Drogon after Daenerys dies to tear down the rest of the wall.

    I know, but yet the fact that they made it to 999 seems to mean something, imo. And I can see him just saying “Screw it!” and getting out of Dodge.

    I really don’t understand why they don’t pepper Bran with questions before doing anything.

  352. Wow, what an episode! I loved it. So many great moments and so many awful moments.

  353. Yeah, I really hope if Jon lives, which he won’t, but on the minuscule chance he does, he says fuck this and heads back North to reunite with Ghost and meet a fierce and beautiful wildling named Val.

  354. F you Cercei! #madqueenDany is okay with me right now

    So Jamie’s arc came full circle even giving us a moment with Brienne, all just to throw it aside, like all that sh*t never happened?!

    I’ve always been Jon fan first and foremost but ironically (maybe the romantic in me) his rejecting Dany’s embrace and her begging for things to stay the same between them has me feeling for her and wishing Jon would have handled that differently. Why not propose? Tell her they can both rule “together?” At least see if she’s receptive to that. Oh wait, I just remembered they’re related. UGH. Okay so….I dunno man. I don’t like Sansa. She’s too icy. Bran’s not a full fledged person and imo neither is Arya. In fact, all the Starks are such damaged goods.

    Jon and Dany need to take Tyrion, Varys and Davos and ride off into the sunset. Screw the throne.

  355. Danny:
    Clob,

    On the other hand, there’s Ghost heading to the real North and I’ve always associated Ghost’s survival with Jon’s survival.Tormund told Jon that he belongs in the real north and Jon told him to take Ghost (and Rhaegal died) with him.It might be that Jon does what Jon has to do and then tell everyone to fck themselves and leaves everything behind to reunite with Tormund and Ghost.Maybe he ends up with Val in the books.That may be as happy an ending as he may be able to have.

    From Season one “Winter is Coming”

    “NED: You will train them yourselves. You will feed them yourselves. And if they die, you will bury them yourselves.”

    There is something that rings false about some of departures. What I see possibly in the near future is

    “My name is Daenarys Stormborn, you killed my son and my friend. Meet my other son Drogon. We are the Dragon…Dracarys!”

  356. The Bastard,

    Jon dying makes perfect sense as he’s always had too much of a classically heroic arc in this kind of story and he’s been heading in this direction for a long time now, he’s officially the lone wolf. The really hammered that metaphor home by having him leave Ghost behind the way he did. The pack survives, but we know what happens to the lone wolf.

    If he does somehow live, I imagine he’ll retire to the Wall and live out his days in solitude, which has also been foreshadowed quite a bit–including in his conversation with Tormund in this episode.

  357. Benioff said Dany just sort of “forgot” about the Iron Fleet. WTAF? Why are D&D writing these characters without any foresight? I can see people making these sorts of mistakes in the beginning of their efforts, but they never seem to learn from their mistakes. These characters have made mistakes over multiple seasons and yet D&D continually make Dany, Tyrion, Jon & Company stupid and short sighted… Very frustrating. #Lazywriting?

  358. ygritte,

    I read Jaime’s words 100 percent as he’s going to KL on a mission to kill Cersei and he doesn’t want Brienne following him.

  359. Nick,

    Grief over just losing Jorah, Raghael and seeing her most trusted friend and advisor slaughtered plus alienation, ptsd from war, and righteous anger coupled with the means to potentially decimate your enemies. Her army’s depleted, their leader now demoralized. She has Drogon. Why wouldn’t she go emotionally unhinged or “mad” and just burn that sh*t to the ground?

  360. I’ll catch up on the thread tomorrow. Until then…

    FUCK. MISSANDEI.

    BRIENNE.

    SANSA & HOUND REUNION.

    ARYA & HOUND REDUX.

    I’m SO fucked up.

    I’m going back to listening to Djawadi’s fucking brilliant “The Night King” for the 107th time because I just can’t cope with life right now.

    P.S.: Top 5, maybe top 3. DAMN.

  361. Che:
    Wow. That was totally shocking. As soon as I saw Missandei in chains, I knew that was not going to end well for her. It was at least a quick way to to go. I actually don’t think Dany has gone mad-queen. She is justifiably filled with rage. She clearly didn’t leap onto Drogon, fly high beyond the reach of the scorpions and then descend into King’s Landing to burn the place down – that would be what a mad queen would do. From the preview for next week (and the shot of her and Jon in Dragonstone), she clearly does go back there and wait for the rest of her forces. She’s furious, but not lost. I am hoping she can come back from this. I do love Dany, not as much as Jon, but I do think she has it in her to be a good person who had a beautiful vision.

    It was a great episode. I loved the first half and was absolutely shocked by the second. From that Hound and Arya exchange, I’m a bit worried the pair of them are going to somehow end up in a scenario with The Mountain and Cersei, but I don’t see it going well for either of them. Bit worried about that.

    Jaime, what the hell are you up to?!

    All the Jon goodbye scenes in Winterfell were purposefully done to make it feel like he is going to die. Either they’re misdirecting and he lives or they’re giving him lovely send offs, but until I know which I am going to cry every tine I rewatch that scene. It was beautifully done. Though I wish Jon had given Ghost a hug at least!

    Cersei can go to hell. And Euron is an idiot if after Tyrion’s speech to her, he doesn’t work out that the baby isn’t his. How else would Tyrion have known?

    As someone who has hated Snarky Sansa (but loved pre-snarky Sansa), I have to say, I do understand why she told Tyrion. She wants what’s best for her people and she genuinely thinks Jon is the better choice.

    I agree with nearly everything that you say che. I do not feel badly towards sansa. I think it is paramount that house start do not start hording secrets, they must be transparent if the future of the kingdoms is to be stable. yes the releasing of those secrets now will cause initial instability, but the wrinkles will be equally ironed out fast. Left to fester under a scab of secrecy they will eventually erupt violently.

  362. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Yeah, I have no earthly idea why the show didn’t have Jon give Ghost a big goodbye hug. Are the dogs difficult to work with or something? Not one character in Season 8 has touched Ghost. On one hand, it makes sense for Jon to want Ghost to be happy and away from the BS of the Seven Kingdoms in the most northern North while he marches to an uncertain future but Ghost can handle himself, especially in Winterfell. Why can’t Ghost stay at Winterfell to protect Jon’s family?

    While I liked the episode well enough (though it makes me deeply nervous and sad and I have a super stomach ache from emotions), I don’t get why they’ve handled Ghost the way they have since episode 603.

  363. Mango,

    Your 1158 post initially only showed the first two sentences. The final line that appeared was “It’s only a TV show.” The rest of the post only appeared after I replied.

  364. Lundy:
    Benioff said Dany just sort of “forgot” about the Iron Fleet. WTAF? Why are D&D writing these characters without any foresight? I can see people making these sorts of mistakes in the beginning of their efforts, but they never seem to learn from their mistakes. These characters have made mistakes over multiple seasons and yet D&D continually make Dany, Tyrion, Jon & Company stupid and short sighted… Very frustrating. #Lazywriting?

    Yes, it is. I was an Army officer for 8 years, not exactly a lifetime, but damn, after just a year or two you’re not going to be making mistakes this blatant and stupid. They’re basically just doing what it takes to create suspense and conflict and make it seem more difficult than it needs to be so they don’t get accused of being too easy on the heroes.

    They had a way better thing going in the early seasons when Robb and Daenerys were so badly outmatched that they could portray Robb as not just a competent commander but a damn prodigy, and it still seemed like he could lose, and he did. Because all the military genius in the world means nothing when your enemies have triple the armies and even more funding.

    But they hit the later seasons and didn’t have that any more. Cersei was totally alone. Everyone had abandoned her. Daenerys had the greatest army the world had ever seen. But hey, good guys winning is boring, so they had to turn Tyrion and Jon into idiots, Cersei makes a 180 and suddenly becomes a strategic genius rather than just ruthless when backed into a corner, and Euron comes and is like you thought it was silly when Ramsay Bolton was fighting off the Ironborn with kitchen knives and no shirt and took down Stannis Baratheon with 20 men? Wait til you get a load of the guy in a My Chemical Romance uniform making dick jokes six times an episode who can hide his fleet anywhere and kills dragons.

    If you’re Cersei and your enemies have triple the armies and even more funding? No worries. The Iron Bank that even your dad feared will just inexplicably decide they really like you after you take Highgarden in your sleep and a 10,000 year-old ice demon built to destroy the world of men will do you a solid and kill most of your enemies for you, and the survivors will even turn on each other for good measure.

    Why the hell couldn’t Robb Stark have some of Cersei Lannister’s luck?

  365. This episode made me very very sad. The scorpions can not shoot vertically. I don’t think they can angle up much more than about 50 degrees. So, why isn’t the vertical harrenhall maneuver being utilised?

  366. I just thought of something.

    Dany granted the bastard Gendry Rivers his name and his birthright for his heroism.

    She denied the bastard Jon Snow, whom she claims to love, his name and birthright despite his heroism.

    The juxtaposition of these two actions are interesting to me.

  367. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Yeah, it is interesting, but in her defense she already knew by then that Jon was never a bastard nor a Snow. She both loves and fears him at the same time now, it’s complicated. More specifically, she fears other people’s love for him, since that’s the one thing that could deny her what she’s struggled for all her life.

    The Gendry decision was great, and it was amusing she kind of tricked him into thinking her announcement was going to be something negative when it wasn’t.

  368. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    I caught that too. And it was a big deal, since Robert Baratheon stole her family birthright and was trying to kill her for most of her life. Whereas Jon has only supported her and is an actual blood relative.

    Adrianacandle,

    Don’t get me started on Ghost. Until this episode he looked like he was actually just slipped in wherever there was extra space and no one acknowledged him. We’ll just ignore the fact that he also shrunk quite a bit from the last time we’d seen him. Then they put him on the front lines instead of with Edd and Sam or *gasp* maybe Bran the warg. And now they made Jon send him away without even getting to touch him, when we know how important he is on multiple levels. A loyal companion. A Stark connection etc.

    Now, in this last season, we have to admit that the direwolf dislike is undeniable.
    Clearly none of the showrunners have dogs.

  369. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    ygritte,

    I read Jaime’s words 100 percent as he’s going to KL on a mission to kill Cersei and he doesn’t want Brienne following him.

    From your lips and his actual book and show story arc to the show’s ears. Nothing else would make any sense.

  370. Now that I’ve been complaining, let me restate how very much I loved Tormund and Sandor this episode. LOVED. And Tyrion pouring his wine into Tormund’s horn.
    And them playing Tyrion’s favorite game-well at least the first part when Brienne was tipsy and laughing and having a great time.

    Oh and I might have gotten misty eyed during the memorial.

  371. RG,

    Totally!! He’s kind of dropped in like a sticker on a craft project. He doesn’t look CGI, what is it with not letting the actors directly interact with the dog? Is it the drool factor? It can’t be! They deal with mud and fake blood and all that XD

    I used to think the lack of direwolves was due to how difficult fur is to CGI but they seem to be using just a normal-sized husky. And they cut out a Jon-Ghost scene from 702. Yeah, I totally don’t get why the showrunners seem to dislike the direwolves. And it’s Ghost, Ghost!!! Even Kit Harington asked after him in the 707 commentary XD Like, UGH, just let Jon hug his wolf so I don’t have to squeeze my cat half to death to make up for it!! 😉

  372. Che,

    I wonder if Brienne will go after Jaime. Would be pretty horrific if she went after Jaime, was captured by Cersei and used by her to torture Jaime….. but this is GOT. And I can soooo see them doing that.

    or maybe killed and used as frankesteins bride. lol

  373. Danny’s arc as a mad Queen has long been foreshadowed and set up, so to call it butchered is wrong in my opinion. Dany fans chose not to believe it, but I love she’s not gone mad because of her family instead she’s lost everyone around her who could control her worst impulses now she wil unleash fire and blood only to lose everything because nobody will support her afterwards that is clear. It’s a bittersweet tragedy.

  374. Steel_Wind: We were not expecting that. At all. It was logical, reasonable and entirely defensible. And we were not expecting it.

    Sorry, but speak for yourself. I was SCREAMING at the continued stupidity in the little war council!
    And a feeling of dread as Dany smiled flying in to Dragonstone.

  375. Azor Asshai: She both loves and fears him at the same time now, it’s complicated. More specifically, she fears other people’s love for him, since that’s the one thing that could deny her what she’s struggled for all her life.

    Yes, I can definitely understand how his parentage scares her. And I always expected that she would ask him to honor his pledge and not go for the iron throne.

    But to deny him his name? He’s been living with other people’s lies his entire life. He finally knows who he is. To me, asking him to renounce his newfound identity is much darker than asking him to renounce his claim to the throne.

  376. With the whole parentage thing, I can see it from all sides:

    Dany: She’s based so much of her identity on getting the Iron Throne and Jon clearly doesn’t want it. She loves Jon but she knows, especially from seeing how beloved he was at the feast by family and friends alike, that people are going to want to press his claim over hers. Dany hasn’t been exactly welcome in the North and she’s totally right Sansa will want Jon on the throne, regardless of who Jon bends the knee to.

    Sansa: She also loves Jon (not like that!!!!) and her primary concern is, naturally, for the North and her family. She knows Jon as a good, decent man and one of the few such men left in her life. I think it’s understandable she’ll want to press the claim of a brother she trusts and loves over a stranger with a not-so-great reputation. Still, I don’t really know why she dislikes Daenerys so much, Daenerys hasn’t done anything wrong so far (but if Daenerys does go Mad Queen after this episode – sigh – I’ll get it, sadly), but that could be based on reputation (Daenerys’s own reputation and that of her father) rather than personal reasons.

    Jon: Sansa and Arya are his family, they always will be and, as with Daenerys, he thinks he owes them this information concerning their own family. Ned didn’t cheat on Catelyn, Ned spent his life trying to protect the only child of his beloved sister. And it’d be hard keeping something like that, who you really are, from your loved ones. However, I think the big kicker here is Jon has some blind spots where his sisters are concerned – they are changed, they’re not the same girls he grew up with, they have reasons to want him on the Iron Throne and not Dany. He knows Sansa’s been through some sh*t (ie. he’s pulverized Ramsay and throttled Littlefinger) but I don’t think he really knows how Sansa’s mindset has changed.

    I think Jon and Dany are being set up for the ultimate tragic love story 🙁 I think Jon, his sisters, and tree brother will be a-okay in the end but Jon and Dany look like they’re being set up as the ultimate Star-Crossed Lovers with an extra dollop of tragedy.

  377. But that is the bittersweet tragedy, she’s always been a character with good intentions but with the capacity to do bad if she cannot control her impulses. It seems she is like a lot of villains they start off good then move to a dark side due to a lack of acceptance and consumed by a thirst for power. The fact she had to lose everything to finally snap is testament to the good honest young girl we all rooted for in the first few seasons. The only question is now how will this end if she burns Kings Landing and slaughters thousands of innocents which seems to be coming next week? I fear she will also kill Tyrion and Varys too.

  378. Jon Snowed,

    Yes. That’s what is giving me serious anxiety nausea. Me and my soft, lame, loser heart truly didn’t want to accept this. I’m clearly a Jon fan, but I’m a Dany fan too – Dany’s the one who drew me into the series, into the books, into the TV show, and it’s going to be hard to rewatch if things go the way I think they will.

    I’m gutted 🙁 And I didn’t prepare well enough to be this gutted T__T

  379. Mango,

    Ned didn’t tel them because really it was none of their business what promise he gave his sister, and that truth could result in the death of an infant. Robert is dead now, and Jon is a man grown, well able to take responsibility for his own mortality. Ned knew that Jon had come of age, that is why he told Jon that he would tell him about his mother next time he saw him, and at that point it was up to Jon who he told. In Neds mind, once Jon is a man and able and expected to fend for himself, then it is only reasonable that he control his own secrets and take responsibility for the consequences. Ned did the right thing in his turn. Just as he did the right thing by risking his life to give cersie a chance to get her children away from kings landing. And in turn, Jon did the right thing by coming clean and making sure that he had hold of no dirty laundry that could hurt anyone yet further. In other words, it is a secret that could get him killed,but he is ok with that, he regards himself as man enough to shoulder that responsibility. Good for him, and good for Ned.

  380. RG: Clearly none of the showrunners have dogs.

    This is the one scene that, hours later, still has me fuming at D&D. Ghost has been Jon’s best friend since he was barely on the verge of manhood. Stayed by his side when fighting the White Walkers, didn’t move an inch when Jon was killed, and now is injured and lost an ear to help save Winterfell. Jon gives him away with barely a twinge of regret?

    I get that Ghost wouldn’t be happy in Kings Landing. And that CGI is expensive. But there are few things stronger than the bond between a good person and their dog, and this scene could have been handled so much better.

    It was about as believable as Starbucks in Winter Town and, in a small way, hurt the credibility of the overall episode for me. I loved a lot about the episode, don’t get me wrong. Yet these little things matter. It’s not about fan-service, it’s about story continuity and character believability.

  381. Jack Bauer 24: Too casual. They’ve been together since Season 1 and that was the goodbye? Come on.

    Jon should have thrown a rock at him like arya did with Nymeria 🙂

  382. mon: mon

    I avoided all spoilers but saw @yeahclarke on twitter going full nuclear about the show yesterday. I didn’t bother to read it all but went back now and he/she’s going hard that D&D are hacks and they hate GRRM all because Dany is going to be a “mad queen”. So essentially we are getting hate simply because on key character has a tragic arc and they’ve not been willing to accept it despite multiple seasons of build up.

    Other than virtual confirmation of Mad Dany and perhaps the way Euron killed a dragon I really don’t see too many faults with this episode.

  383. Mango,

    He probably knows full well what the possible consequences are, but he can not make their decisions for them. He can only place his cards on the table and let the cards fall where they may. If daeny chooses the end-him option, he will more than likely open up and say ‘give it your best shot, but make sure that you don’t fail.’ And if she chooses to use Drogon as her champion, he will just deal with that as best he can. He may die, He may have learned from the mistakes that he made v Viserion, That may have been what the Viserion thing was all about, who know? But, I am sure that Jon is a big boy capable of making his own decisions and standing by them regardless of the consequences now.

  384. Mother of a Dragon: Steel

    Steel_Wind: Steel

    I theorised some time back that Arya may be the one to take out Dany, I’m less sure of it now she killed the Nights King. My guess at this point is that if Dany dies it will be via Tyrion or Jon in a truly bittersweet moment.

  385. King in the North East:
    Vinga,

    You think that Jon beating Ramsey is akin to slaughtering/ burning tens of thousands of innocents to get revenge?

    Wow.

    Just… wow.

    So far Daenerys SAVED tens of thousands of innocents by helping out with the great war, at a great military and personal cost. Which y’all now conveniently seem to forget. And she saved Jon’s life THREE TIMES. And still the remaining Starks are like those cool kids in high school being like YoU cAn’T sIt WiTh Us.

    Honestly, if she decides to burn all Westeros to the ground now, I’m with her. Bunch of ungrateful treasonous cunts. She can start with Winterfell and Sansa for all I care.

  386. Pigeon,

    Totally agree. If she really loved her children so much she could not have turned on tommen so quickly, calling him a traitor. lmao, I always laughed at that one. Any real mother would have sifted through the wreckage that once was Tommen trying to work out what state of mind was he in and grieving over the hurt and grief that he must have been feeling for him to decide on the options that he did. Her love is like a teenybopers love. She loves only so long as she is loved back, and that love is total. And, If something, anything at all, hurts her, she withdraws her love 100%. I mean, That is the kind of shit that you expect from an eleven year old, loves you on monday, hates you on tuesday. So, No she doesn’t really love anything or anyone except herself, and never did, just superficial teenyboper shit.

  387. JamesL:
    Vinga,

    Why would people consider Jon mad for wanting to kill an awful character like Ramsay? And why are you and so many others pretending like this isn’t the ending GRRM told D&D?

    Why would people consider Daenerys mad for wanting to kill an awful character like Cersei? GRRM, for all his flaws, understands his characters’ motivations, doesn’t dumb down characters to prop up others, doesn’t allow for plot holes and actually uses logic. That’s why.

    By the way, I was one of those people who were ready to defend the show until my last breath up until EP3. But after that one I’ve had enough.

  388. Jon Snowed,

    It’s a strange twist for me having been a Jon fan-girl since the beginning that now I feel the most empathy for Dany. With all her past airs and faults I never thought I would. It doesn’t help I guess that Jon himself has become static for me. It’s like we don’t have enough of his POV anymore or something.

  389. Vinga: Why would people consider Daenerys mad for wanting to kill an awful character like Cersei? GRRM, for all his flaws, understands his characters’ motivations, doesn’t dumb down characters to prop up others, doesn’t allow for plot holes and actually uses logic. That’s why.

    By the way, I was one of those people who were ready to defend the show until my last breath up until EP3. But after that one I’ve had enough.

    Because in failing to control her rage she is going to slaughter tens of thousands of innocents. That’s the whole bitter sweet ending right there.

  390. Nymeria the Wolf,

    Couldn’t Bran have “three-eye ravened” if and let them know about Euron? Well, we are thinning the herd a bit!

    Seeing visions generally doesn’t work like that. You generally need a target to home in on. With visions, The best way to home in on a target is to be told a lie. If you are told a lie, the true vision goes BAM and basically hits you smack between the eyes. other than that, you can just be flying around and spot something randomly. Or, you can have a persons particular personality in mind and just zoom into that personality and it will take your vision to where they are.

  391. Laura: I am just kind of shocked people liked that episode For me,the first 2/3 were extreme audience pandering and the last 3rd was just one stomach turner after another to make you so mad going in to the final eps that you’re screaming for Cersei’s head, if you weren’t before.

    but I promise it’s just me here stewing away in my own pot lol I promise not to try to pull anyone in. Don’t get me wrong, I wanted to love the episode, truly. It just didn’t click for me and I guess I’m in the minority.

    You’re definitely not in the minority, this just isn’t (mostly) the right crowd.

  392. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface:
    Mother of a Dragon,

    Dany flaming all the scorpions at night makes sense, but I dont think they will do that. It makes too much sense…

    Yep. You have a black dragon. Wait for a moonless night and torch those things at 2 AM. Too bad it’s not a stupid idea because then they’d do it for sure.

  393. Mango,

    She knew. Back in season 2 when Jaime is recaptured and Lord Karstark says ‘he killed my son’ Catelyn replies ‘and crippled mine’.

    Brienne is standing right next to Catelyn during that whole scene. She also knows about the cousin killing. The only thing that might be brand new information for her (and us!) was the Riverrun reason.

    I’m still shell-shocked at this turn of events tbh, didn’t make sense why he was confessing to things she already knew about him.

  394. the unburdened:
    Pigeon,

    Totally agree. If she really loved her children so much she could not have turned on tommen so quickly, calling him a traitor. lmao, I always laughed at that one. Any real mother would have sifted through the wreckage that once was Tommen trying to work out what state of mind was he in and grieving over the hurt and grief that he must have been feeling for him to decide on the options that he did. Her love is like a teenybopers love. She loves only so long as she is loved back, and that love is total. And, If something, anything at all, hurts her, she withdraws her love 100%. I mean, That is the kind of shit that you expect from an eleven year old, loves you on monday, hates you on tuesday. So, No she doesn’t really love anything or anyone except herself, and never did, just superficial teenyboper shit.

    Plus, she’s been wearing Tommen’s scalp as a hat for a couple of seasons now.

    Honestly, I really wish Drogon had appeared and roasted Cersei, Euron, Frankengregor, etc while they were up on top of the walls looking self-satisfied. That would have been epic. He appeared out of nowhere at Daznak’s pit, why not here? Dammit.

  395. Hodors Bastard,

    No RIP for Rhaegal / Rhaegon ?
    Daenerys is … exhausted, and… perhaps vengeful at the moment.
    Cersei needs to die tho, but first I want to put a sword in Euron.

  396. Laura,

    lol …. do we? doesn’t look to me like we do. in fact, the opposite seems to be the case. We all seem to think that it was excruciatingly painful and that we loved it for the pain that it caused us. xD

  397. Mango: Let us see how it works out.

    Jaime like Tyrion like Cersei are Lannisters – none of them are pushovers. All share a cunning ruthlessness – even the knight of the seven kingdoms.

    Jaime is not a broken man. As Tyrion told him, he always knew what Cersei was. The thing that nearly destroyed him was killing Aeyrs and the social rejection after that.

    In most situations, he is the sanest man in the room.

    ffs mango. you are like those bloody groupies that we used to see in the 60’s chasing john paul ringo and george down the footpath. give it a break already. it is way too childish to read a paragraph of this tripe and then pay much credence to anything that comes after it.
    I like tyrion and Jaime, but the cheerleaders in the background going, give me a L give me a A…. need to come up for some air

  398. Mango: He would have.

    Perhaps gone up himself to see to the battle plan. Maybe the Dothraki would still be alive!!

    I disagree. Tywin was ruthless. He masterminded the red wedding! He’d have done what Cersei did and not gone north. He also would have killed Dany, Tyrion and everyone standing in front of Kimgs Landing at the end there in the midst of a truce talk. I’m actually surprised Cersei didn’t open fire.

  399. Evgeny,

    I don’t disagree with this.
    I find it ironic though, that many consider starving a populace strategic and calculating whereas burning/bombing them is “mad”.

  400. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I know Jon is getting shit for giving Ghost away. That was BS. But it has always been par for the course as far as the show goes. The connection between the Starks and their wolves was never established, outside of Bran. I hope Tormund takes care of him. Why the hell they didn’t just have Jon leave him with Sansa to protect her is beyond me.

    That is my only complaint about the episode.

    If Ghost is with Sansa we’d expect to see him. If he’s out of sight with Tormund problem solved.

  401. Leuf:
    Just imagine the stories Tormund is going to tell about the size of the direwolf he impregnated to end up with Ghost as his son.

    😂😂😂😂

  402. Vinga:

    Honestly, if she decides to burn all Westeros to the ground now, I’m with her. Bunch of ungrateful treasonous cunts.

    Well, that tells you what type of person you are. You’d advocate for the slaughter of a million civilians because they happen to live under an unjust ruler they never chose or wanted. Let’s forget about all of the little children too. Let’s just kill them all, right?

    You’d probably be in favor of throwing a nuke on North Korea just to get to Kim Jong un, killing millions in the process.

    If you don’t understand how killing everyone without discrimination is a bad thing, then there’s no hope for you, not just as a viewer of GoT, but also as a person.

    I really hope you’ll never be in a position of power over anyone

  403. Adam:
    We’ll find out soon enough, but my personal head canon right now is this ends with Tyrion and Varys and Sansa and whoever scheming successfully to put Jon on the throne, but he tells them to screw themselves, his watch has ended, he’s tired of fighting, and as he told Tyrion a while back, why would anyone want to live in King’s Landing? He fulfills his final pledge, to fight for Daenerys because she fought for him, and after that he owes nothing to anybody. Return to the real north with Ghost and Tormund, his true friends. Let Sansa have Winterfell and Tyrion or Varys or whoever else can have fun with the damn Iron Throne. Put Robin Arryn on it, for all he cares.

    GRRM wanted to subvert Tolkein, so here’s Aragorn in reverse. Born to be the king, does everything he can to unite people, and they beg him to take the throne, but all he really ever wanted to be was a Ranger.

    I disagree with this. Being a ranger is not what he wanted. His desire to go to the wall was really just him wanting to get away from cat. all he ever really wanted was to be a stark. maybe they should start a deedpole and make him a stark and get into that household properly.

  404. Dragonbringer,

    Exactly. I thought she was justified in executing the Tarleys, not mad, and now instead of suiciding on Cesei and Kings Landing, she is going home to deal with her grief, and hopefully come up with a plan. I know I couldn’t do it. I’d have lit it up, as Missandei urged her to.

  405. Direcat,

    You’re massively missing the point. A siege (starving the population), much like modern economic sanctions, is designed not to kill everyone but to force the ruler to capitulate. So it’s a threat. Capitulate, or starve. It’s a form of hard diplomacy. Burning everyone alive is designed to utterly destroy everyone in order to win. There is no diplomacy there. So yes. Burning everyone alive is worse than a siege.

  406. TheKnightQueen,

    Jamie wasn’t confessing. He was simply using those examples of his horrible deeds to break up with Brienne. To leave her.

    Does anyone actually pay attention to the context of scenes anymore?

  407. I think it’s clear, now, that Varys will try to kill Dany. Either he’ll succeed or not. But he’ll try. If he fails, I imagine Jaime might do it (or try). The Queenslayer. In any event, I think multiple people will try in order to prevent another Targaryen-driven mass atrocity/ genocide attempt. That’s where this is going.

    I do think that Sansa pushed her too far. Dany saved the North (well, Westeros), and had much of her army and her closest adviser killed for it. And she saved Jon not once, but three times.

    And yet Sansa played the clique card. You’re not one of us. And that’s helped push Dany irreversibly towards tyranny.

    Bad move by Sansa. If she had shown just a smidgeon of gratefulness, we’d be in a different place.

    But…it all flows naturally from the character arcs and the story. This all makes perfect sense. It’s just…tragic and deeply unfortunate.

    As Tyrion said, they contended with the Night’s King. Now they have to contend with themselves. The worst parts of human nature is the real evil to defeat, not a pale king.

    And that’s why this is a high quality show, no matter what some hardcore fan critics say.

  408. krupke:
    Looks like things are going to end much much more heavily weighted towards the bitter than the sweet. So more of a tragedy than a drama…

    Dany knew how dissemination of the knowledge of Jon’s parentagewould unfold. She knew that Cersei would not let Missandei go (though she and Greyworm had a bit of hope for a moment). I hate that Cersei even put her hands on Missandei and I hate them killing Rhaegal. I don’t know if siege tactics would work on Cersei and I don’t know if Dany has the patience to try that strategy.

    Jon’s honesty and the fact that he tries to be good makes Dany and others love him, but from the way others discussed how his wishes don’t matter with regard to theramifications of his parentage, they seem to feel he’s just a pawn. Hope he proves them wrong.

    I’m not sure what Jaime thinks he’s going to be able to do inking’s Landing. I assume he told Brienne those things b/c he felt he didn’t deserve her. I find it hard to believe that he thinks Cersei can be reasoned with, so I’m assuming he’s going to make sure she dies.

    Glad that Jon sent Ghost north. It’s safer for him up there.

    From the post episode interview, I think one of the producers said Sansa was taking cues from Littlefinger with regard to her decision to tell Tyrion about Jon’s parentage. Yikes….

    All in sync with my thinking and concerns.

    Also, the title ‘Last of the Starks’ is ominous. There’s no more male line left. Arya is facing her death. Sansa is creating a hollow future for herself. Bran’s already left the present. Jon is struggling with identity, but doesn’t matter, he’s a Targ anyway!

    Also, Dany & Tyrion seem on the straightest path right now. Not buying her going crazy. She’s strong and Jorah said to stick with Tyrion.

    Bronn was sent to murder Jamie by Cersei, so I can’t expect he wants to reason with her. Just they are entwined too tightly for him to be a whole man for Brienne. He plans to die beside her, perhaps so in despair he’ll attempt a double-suicide.

  409. JohnnyLaw:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Sandor seems to want to die after killing his brother – “I’m not planning on coming back.”Noone seems to get what they want or think they deserve.I can see Sandor surviving the story, especially because he doesn’t seem to care to.

    True, I can also see him dying while killing his brother.

    That’s why they threw that little sidebar in with Arya, “You going to leave me to die again, if I get hurt?”…And she responded with “Probably”…So you know she’s going to have to put him out of his misery this time.

  410. For four episodes now, so many things have gone wrong for Dany. She’s hated by Sansa, not trusted by most in the North, found out she isn’t the true heir to the throne, lost 2 good friends, lost another dragon and now her closest advisors may be plotting against her.

    Perhaps we are just being set up to think Dany has gone mad? Her grief was palpable in that final scene. I am guessing here but I think episode 5 will be her big come back. Will she find armor for Drogon at Dragonstone? Maybe Rhagael isn’t dead or will be brought back by a red priestess? Euron was looking up in shock at something in that preview.

    Dany said she was gonna “break the wheel.” So, it’s possible that nobody will sit on the iron throne at the end. I can go on and on but I don’t want this to become a tldr….

  411. Pigeon: Plus, she’s been wearing Tommen’s scalp as a hat for a couple of seasons now.

    Honestly, I really wish Drogon had appeared and roasted Cersei, Euron, Frankengregor, etc while they were up on top of the walls looking self-satisfied. That would have been epic. He appeared out of nowhere at Daznak’s pit, why not here? Dammit.

    He was in the background, far behind Dany’s group, in a few shots, outside the range of the scorpions. He would have had no surprise this time.

  412. Marlana: I have theorized here that the virus that attacked Shireen and Jorah is the agent the turns living beings into stone.Some particles lingering from when Dragonstone was built attacked a vulnerable baby.

    GRMM points out more than once the uniqueness and lifelike appearance of the gargoyles of Dragonstone.If creatures were turned into gargoyles, so also dragons were bestoned into the walls ofDragonstone.Dragon stone.If the dragons can be destoned, Dany can replenish her mobile hot fire delivery system.

    Yes! Lots of setup in the books for that, and I’d noticed the stone men connection, too!

    GoT is similar to another series I love, a series that GRRM has said is “fantasy as it ought to be written,” where the hero is the bastard of a crowned prince who is killed but melds minds with his wolf while dead and buried and then weeks later is brought back to life. Sound familiar? In this Farseer series, stone dragons are brought to life by this hero to fly off and win a massive war against enemies.

  413. Adrianacandle:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Yeah, I have no earthly idea why the show didn’t have Jon give Ghost a big goodbye hug. Are the dogs difficult to work with or something? Not one character in Season 8 has touched Ghost. On one hand, it makes sense for Jon to want Ghost to be happy and away from the BS of the Seven Kingdoms in the most northern North while he marches to an uncertain future but Ghost can handle himself, especially in Winterfell. Why can’t Ghost stay at Winterfell to protect Jon’s family?

    Exactly! Sansa is connected to direwolves and she could use one at Winterfell! I am stumped why Ghost is going north, other than to remove the CGI difficulties of this character.
    Geesh! There’s plenty of places to roam at Winterfell, so why banish him further north?

  414. The reason most of us came to like the book, the tv series or both is the unpredictability of the series. There are no safe parties and for 8 seasons now we’ve watched great characters built up and killed off. As every one of us has such vastly different upbringings, wants and wishes, this story has be great because of its unpredictability and how life like it is in killing off characters we love and hate. That is why I find it so absolutely funny that people on here get in keyboard arguments and well could actually go fist to cuffs if they met in real life. If this damn show was predictable none of us would still be here in season 8 watching it and it would of been cancelled in season 2.

    But with that said, I’ll make my predictions just because it is fun to guess. So far, each episode I’ve made predictions with my friends and only a small percentage of them have ever been correct. That is what is fun. In some TV shows, movies and books they are just so friggin’ boring because you see the ending coming a mile away. Not the case with GRRM or D&D to date. We all have kind of a vague ending in mind and we know general things like Cersei won’t end on the throne. But all the little details keep us interested.

    My POST 08-04 Predictions – Like a weather forecaster, they most likely will be completely or 99% wrong but fun to speculate without care whether any are correct.

    Tormund et al change their minds and come south
    Euron killed by Danny (via dragon)
    Yara finishes off Euron’s fleet or they switch allegiance once Euron is dead.
    Danny killed by Tyrion (to break the wheel) and after she decides to ‘burn them all’
    Jaime killed by Mountain while attempting to kill Cersei
    Mountain killed by Hound
    Hound mortally wounded during Mountain attack
    Cersei killed by Arya
    Arya finishes Hound
    Gendry – Don’t care
    Pod – Don’t care
    Briene – Don’t care
    Bronn – Waits to see which side is winning and joins in with the winning side (not Cersei)

    Tyrion lineage revealed by Bran
    Tyrion takes the throne but melts and disposes of Iron Throne for simple throne. (How many damn times has Tyrion been in the camera shot when some hint has been given about lineage or the throne going to someone that isn’t wanting or looking for it.)
    Jon takes the north being both mentally and physically wounded and plain tired.
    Once Jon is in the north, Sansa returns to her first husband.
    Arya goes west to see what is west of Westeros.

    And we all live happily ever after squabbling about how the show should have really ended waiting desperately for GRRM to finish the books that we will disagree with as well. 🙂

    Just my 2 gold dragons.

    Flea

  415. King in the North East: Well, that tells you what type of person you are. You’d advocate for the slaughter of a million civilians because they happen to live under an unjust ruler they never chose or wanted. Let’s forget about all of the little children too. Let’s just kill them all, right?

    You’d probably be in favor of throwing a nuke on North Korea just to get to Kim Jong un, killing millions in the process.

    If you don’t understand how killing everyone without discrimination is a bad thing, then there’s no hope for you, not just as a viewer of GoT, but also as a person.

    I really hope you’ll never be in a position of power over anyone

    Umm.. really? I was talking strictly about the show and you’re going for me personally which shows me what kind of a person YOU are. Plus, take a look at other corners of the internet and you’ll see I’m not the only one wanting Dany to light them up. I guess we’re all horrible people for rooting for our favorite character who’s being butchered just because. Also, you know literally nothing about me so respectfully.. fuck off.

  416. Olli: Exactly!Sansa is connected to direwolves and she could use one at Winterfell!I am stumped why Ghost is going north, other than to remove the CGI difficulties of this character.
    Geesh!There’s plenty of places to roam at Winterfell, so why banish him further north?

    Yeah, I think it is to remove the difficulties getting Ghost on-screen, which is unfortunate :/ I read on Reddit that Ghost’s scenes were actually filmed around Calgary and then super-imposed into the GoT scenes in Belfast, making it impossible for Jon/Sam/Edd/Jorah/Tormund to touch him.

    But… it was blatantly obvious how none of the characters directly interacted with Ghost, that feels awkward. I think Ghost will be happy in the most North of the Norths with Tormund, I think Jon wants the best life for Ghost, but it was so, so, so awkwardly done by the writers and so clunky. I can’t figure out why they wouldn’t have at least one direct interaction when they’ve managed those before pre-season 6 – especially for what may be a final interaction between Jon and Ghost. But I feel the show has never valued the direwolves much – I wonder if it’s because dragons are a) easier to CGI and b) more awe-inspiring than furry wolves who’d need real doggos to start off with. And real animals can be a pain to work with :/ Maybe the direwolves are just too much trouble.

    But come on, a final actual scene with physical touch between Jon and Ghost would be too much for the last season??? Sigh.

  417. Ginevra: melds minds with his wolf while dead and buried and then weeks later is brought back to life. Sound familiar? In this Farseer series, stone dragons are brought to life by this hero to fly off and win a massive war against enemies.

    What kind of energy is used by a dead body to communicate with the mind of an animal? What energy restores life or activates still dead cells? What process changes stone back into living bodies? Sounds like Red God energy.

  418. ygritte: Jon and Dany need to take Tyrion, Varys and Davos and ride off into the sunset. Screw the throne.

    Don’t forget Ghost too 😢 I was so disappointed in Jon for leaving poor one-eared Ghost behind without so much as a pat…

  419. Vinga: Umm.. really? I was talking strictly about the show and you’re going for me personally which shows me what kind of a person YOU are. Plus, take a look at other corners of the internet and you’ll see I’m not the only one wanting Dany to light them up. I guess we’re all horrible people for rooting for our favorite character who’s being butchered just because. Also, you know literally nothing about me so respectfully.. fuck off.

    Yes, I called you out personally. And no I won’t apologize for it.

    You made it very clear that you fully support Dany in slaughtering a million civilians. At this point it becomes irrelevant that we’re talking about fiction, because it reveals more about you and your thought processes than anything about the show or me.

    There’s two possibilities here:

    You support Dany in wanting to ‘burn them all’.

    So if this scenario was playing out in reality, would you still be supporting her?

    Option 1: Yes. That makes you the insane individual I’ve suggested you were.

    Option 2: No. That makes you a hypocrite for defending her as much as you have been.

    So I’m really hoping for you to just be a hypocrite.

    The only thing that’s been revealed about me here is that I have a moral compass.

  420. King in the North East,

    Yes it’s important that it’s fiction. I don’t think I’d like any of these characters in real life. Apart from people like Shireen, Tommen or Gilly, almost all of them have killed people in the show. Some for good reasons, some for not so good reasons. In real life I couldn’t live with someone who beheaded people, Jon Snow killed a young boy like Olly who had every right to be angry with him. But in the show I fully support Jon.

  421. Chilli:
    King in the North East,

    Yes it’s important that it’s fiction.

    Depends.

    It’s one thing to be rooting for a character in fiction even if that character is a horrible person.

    That’s understandable. We realize it’s fiction and allow us to have some thoughts we don’t think we’d have in real life.

    It’s another thing entirely to argue that their actions are completely justified and that they’re doing good by killing innocent civilians, including children.

    That’s… questionable.

    It’s like watching a WWII movie and arguing that the Nazis were right in committing their atrocities. Even if WWII had been an entirely fictional event, I’d think you could still say it’s worrisome if someone sides with the people committing atrocities.

    Sometimes it’s a fine line, you’re right, but I think our reactions to fiction are not completely separate from what we might think if the situations were real.

  422. King in the North East,

    WWII happened for real, it’s real people who died because of that. No-one in their right mind would support that.
    If we root for Dany to kill people, it’s not real people she kill, even the stuntmen aren’t killed for real. That’s the difference.

  423. Chilli:
    King in the North East,

    WWII happened for real, it’s real people who died because of that. No-one in their right mind would support that.
    If we root for Dany to kill people, it’s not real people she kill, even the stuntmen aren’t killed for real. That’s the difference.

    I think I addressed that in the post you replied to.

    King in the North East:

    Even if WWII had been an entirely fictional event, I’d think you could still say it’s worrisome if someone sides with the people committing atrocities.

    So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here?

    If a person is watching a movie and makes value judgements, like condoning atrocities, it begs the question, what is it that makes them think that?

    Suppose a person watches Der Untergang without realizing it’s based on true events. Is that person then justified in siding with Hitler? What would you think of that person, even if you knew they thought the story was fictional?

    I think it’s a fair question.

  424. King in the North East,

    Yes I know you addressed that, but I still don’t see your problem. And you clearly don’t see why I don’t have a problem with it. No point in further discussing it because I don’t think we’ll ever agree.

  425. Chilli:
    King in the North East,

    Yes I know you addressed that, but I still don’t see your problem. And you clearly don’t see why I don’t have a problem with it. No point in further discussing it because I don’t think we’ll ever agree.

    Well, then why did you reply with an argument I’d already addressed?

    It is pretty difficult to debate anything or understand someone’s position if they have no counterarguments to add to the conversation or don’t directly address your points, don’t you think?

    I’ll change my mind about anything if you can reasonably back up your arguments, so I’m sorry you feel that way.

    I also don’t think you’ve understood my reasoning here.

    I’ll give you another example and you can tell me where you disagree:

    If I play a violent video game where I play as someone murdering innocents and am enjoying it, is there a problem?

    I’d say no. We’re all allowed our fantasies and guilty pleasures and above all, it’s fiction, it’s all make believe so it doesn’t even matter.

    If you ask me IF I THINK that what my character is doing a good thing and I proceed to tell you his actions are completely justified and the right thing to do in that scenario, is there a problem?

    I think there might be. Because now you’re no longer talking about the fiction. You’re talking about your thought processes in that particular scenario.

    So tell me where you disagree.

  426. King in the North East,

    Those things are never black and white. The difference is if it’s just a game or if people would also act on it in real life. If that thinking leads to killing/hurting people for real, it’s the wrong thing.
    Have you never been hurt in love? And in your mind you made up plans to punish the other one for hurting you so much or punish his/her new partner. But when you have a healthy mind, fantasying about punishing the other is enough to learn to deal with and can help you to find peace with it. But if you don’t have a healthy mind, and put those fantasies in reality, what some people do, that’s where it goes wrong.
    But back on GOT. Dany’s purpose is not to kill innocent people, her purpose is destroying Cersei who uses those innocent people as a living shield. The innocent people are collateral damage, but what war has ever won without collateral damage? Maybe innocents die, so other people can live in peace.

  427. Nice episode, cutting lose ends from the show compared to the book.

    I’m confident now show-ending will be pretty much aligned with Martin’s vision

    PS: Hey HB, long time no see!

  428. Chilli:
    King in the North East,

    Those things are never black and white. The difference is if it’s just a game or if people would also act on it in real life. If that thinking leads to killing/hurting people for real, it’s the wrong thing.

    Absolutely, but again, it’s about what someone thinks is justified in that particular case, fictional or real. I can root for Walter White up until the last minute of Breaking Bad because of various reasons.

    But me genuinely believing he’s doing the right thing would be a cause for people to question my morality.

    Chilli:
    King in the North East,

    Have you never been hurt in love? And in your mind you made up plans to punish the other one for hurting you so much or punish his/her new partner. But when you have a healthy mind, fantasying about punishing the other is enough to learn to deal with and can help you to find peace with it. But if you don’t have a healthy mind, and put those fantasies in reality, what some people do, that’s where it goes wrong.

    Yes, but no, I’ve never wanted that for someone I cared about even if they had hurt me. I’d never wish that on someone I cared that much for.

    It’s also irrelevant. Again, it’s not me not understanding the difference between fiction/fantasy and real actions. It’s about what you think about those actions. I thought I’d made that clear by now.

    In this case, would you be approving of someone’s revenge fantasies if they made it clear that they believed that hurting the other person was the morally right thing to do? Would you not, at the VERY LEAST, question their morals or state of mind?

    Chilli:
    King in the North East,

    But back on GOT. Dany’s purpose is not to kill innocent people, her purpose is destroying Cersei who uses those innocent people as a living shield. The innocent people are collateral damage, but what war has ever won without collateral damage? Maybe innocents die, so other people can live in peace.

    Yeah, I’m very much not on board with justifying cruelty because it’s for “the greater good”, both in GoT and reality. Luckily, these days civilian casualties are seen as a tragedy rather than a necessity and I’m glad we’re moving away from thinking “collateral damage” is an acceptable thing.

    “Collateral damage” is a euphemism, you know. Euphemisms exists to soften hard concepts in order to disassociate you from what they really mean. What it really means is “dead men women and children who shouldn’t have died in the first place”. How can you even think the world would be a better place with a million dead innocents?

    Like I said in an earlier post: let’s just nuke North Korea then. The civilians don’t matter. They’re just collateral damage, aren’t they? Come on, let’s make the world a better place and launch that nuke already!

    If it’s truly about taking out Cercei, Dany could just bide her time and plan a hit. But no, right now, she would see Kings Landing burn to the ground if it meant getting Cercei. What makes her so different from Cercei at this point? They both clearly don’t care anymore about what happens to innocents. And it’s not like Cercei didn’t lose anything to make her into what she is now. Why aren’t you advocating for her to win?

    Cercei blows up Sept to win a conflict = evil Cercei
    Dany burns Kings Landing to the ground to win a conflict = good for her! Go Dany!

    Screw it, I’m on Varys’ side all the way. Innocents shouldn’t have to die for the whims of wannabe kings and queens. Both here and in the real world.

  429. Chilli,

    I replied already but it’s under moderation for some reason so who knows if it will ever see the light of day.

  430. King in the North East,

    I won’t comment on the personal stuff because it’s not really worth my time – like I said, you’re a total stranger to me and you seem to be hell bent on judging people you know nothing about. However, are you SERIOUSLY comparing Dany to Hitler? A person who abolished slavery and actively fought and lost a majority of her army to save humanity (and now gets no credit for that)? Are you Bryan Cogman? Because he’s recently done something similar as well. Jesus fucking Christ. Sometimes I’m just so tired and done.

  431. How about we compare Cersei to Hitler? A person who’s cramming those people into King’s Landing to use them as human shields and because she wants Daenerys to have bad PR? A person who’s been using propaganda tactics to achieve her goals? How about that?

  432. Pau: PS: Hey HB, long time no see!

    Hey Pau, how’s the good fight going in Catalonia?

    I’ll bet you four walkabouts around Parc Güell that there will be significant differences between the written word and what we see. 🙂

    That’s my argument for the sake of an argument!

  433. One of the decisive elements in sea battles is to monitor the horizon for enemy sails. Ships sailing at half sailling with reduced topsails are more difficult to spot. Sailing with two Dragons gives you one decisive advantage and that is air reconnaissance. Even close to shore with inlets Euron Greyjoy’s ship should have been spotted, unless Dany and her dragons suffer from an extreme form of myopia.

  434. It felt anti climatic when Night king was killed early on. He would have been a formidable enemy.
    Bran looks cryptic – could he be the Night king and 3 eyed raven at same time?
    Daenerys looks doomed.
    Am rooting for Sansa…

  435. Vinga:
    King in the North East,

    However, are you SERIOUSLY comparing Dany to Hitler?

    You may want to look into the difference between a COMPARISON and an ANALOGY. It’s something that many people tend to find confusing.

    A comparison would be:

    “Dany is like Hitler because….”

    Which was not what I said.

    An analogy would be:

    “Someone siding with Dany when she’s about to commit mass murder is analogous to a person siding with Hitler when he’s about to commit mass murder, under the condition that the person thought Hitler was a fictional person.”

    The latter is 100% analogous and logically valid.

  436. Vinga,

    And by the way, I also see no reason why comparing someone to Hitler would be wrong in any case.

    One might hope that the comparison results in the other person coming out more favorably, although in the case of Dany that will remain too be seen.

    For instance, does anyone even take into account the GOOD things Hitler did before he went too far? I doubt it. He saved Germany from the brink of an economic collapse after the unfair and inhumane restrictions that it was subjected to after WWI.

    It is right that he is remembered for the atrocities he committed. Because no amount of good that he did before that made those awful acts any less awful.

    And it will be right for people to remember Dany that way too, if she starts committing atrocities by burning thousands of innocents. What she did before won’t matter.

    So there: now I DID compare Dany to Hitler. Now what?

  437. King in the North East,

    There is the propecy regarding Both.
    One is destined to die…
    Danny’s propecy is still cryptic

    gther:
    One of the decisive elements in sea battles is to monitor the horizon for enemy sails. Ships sailing at half sailling with reduced topsails are more difficult to spot. Sailing with two Dragons gives you one decisive advantage and that is air reconnaissance. Even close to shore with inlets Euron Greyjoy’s ship should have been spotted, unless Dany and her dragons suffer from an extreme form of myopia.

    Yes… probably it was staged purposely to increase our dislike for euron and Cersei. Or budget issues 😛

  438. King in the North East: You may want to look into the difference between a COMPARISON and an ANALOGY. It’s something that many people tend to find confusing.

    A comparison would be:

    “Dany is like Hitler because….”

    Which was not what I said.

    An analogy would be:

    “Someone siding with Dany when she’s about to commit mass murder is analogous to a person siding with Hitler when he’s about to commit mass murder, under the condition that the person thought Hitler was a fictional person.”

    The latter is 100% analogous and logically valid.

    Well the stage is surely set for Dany to unleash her rage. She is very very very Angry! And this time her advisors won’t stop her because they have a Back up 😛

  439. flintstonewielder,

    It was bad dialogue. Certainly not up the wit and poignancy as previous seasons. The only good line was Jamie telling Brean that he is not a good man.

  440. Does Anyone else here Deduce that Missandei’s capture and subsequent death was for nothing? Besides hinting that King’s landing should be burned down

  441. Mango: Ned did not think honour meant telling his family anything about Jon’s parentage.

    He did not tell Cat , nor Jon, nor his children.

    Jon is not the brightest bulb.

    LOL! Although Jon is one of my favourite characters, I have to agree with you. This is mainly on Jon (not Sansa). He did not have to tell his family anything. To be truly honourable, Jon needed to keep his secret to himself, as Ned did. Ned did not even tell his own wife, as you pointed out, because he knew there would be disastrous consequences if the secret ever came out.

    In Jon’s case, it appears that he genuinely does not want to rule the Seven Kingdoms, so why tell anyone then? Daenerys was right in saying that once the secret is out it “will take on a life of its own.” Jon’s mistake is going to end up biting him in the a**. He will be forced to rule a kingdom and live a life he doesn’t even want, and he will lose the woman he loves. Was it worth it?

  442. But to me that’s the bitter sweet aspect, he doesn’t want the throne but he’s the best candidate for it given the competition is Cersei and Dany so he will do it and endure the bitter.

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