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What a riveting and exciting episode! Critics and fans have a lot to say about flashbacks, deaths, and of course, Jon Snow, so let’s jump right in.
Be sure to check out Watchers’ own fantastic reviews: Sue’s Sullied and Oz’s Unsullied and hang out in the comments to talk about the episode with fellow fans!
Since this episode contained moments from the book series and passed, some authors are noted as Sullied or Unsullied. Be sure to still exercise caution when reading some reviews for book spoilers.
Now, did someone say “kingsmoot?”
Myles McNutt, A.V. Club (Sullied) – Reveling in his excitement for Pyke, McNutt discusses the book moment that finally came to life and much much more.
Alyssa Rosenberg, The Washington Post (Sullied) – Struggling with the pacing of the season so far, Rosenberg draws from book moments, Ramsay Bolton, and Arya’s journey to becoming No One.
Sean T. Collins, Rolling Stone – Collins celebrates “Snow Day” and all the exciting moments from last night’s episode.
Rob Bricken, io9 – Bricken finds an extremely gratifying for each house in “Home.” He rejoices moments like Tyrion and the dragons, the appearance of Lyanna Stark and what it means for Jon Snow.
James Hibberd, Entertainment Weekly – Hibberd is ecstatic over the resurrection of Jon Snow and even has the first interview with Kit Harington breaking the silence.
Dave Schilling, The Guardian – Schilling analyzes everything surrounding the death and revival of Jon Snow in his podcast review “The Citadel.”
Sarah Hughes, The Guardian (Sullied) – Discusses book moments, the return of Bran Stark, that bastard Ramsay, and Hughes excitedly notes, The Red Woman’s vision will indeed come true!
Neil Miller, Film School Rejects – Miller applauds episode writer Dave Hill and the many big moments this episode.
Daniel D’Addario, Time – Also offers criticism for the episode’s pacing but is still intrigued by the magic of Game of Thrones.
David Crow, Den of Geek – Crow delves right into the return of Jon Snow as he’s unable to contain his excitement. He savors the many big moments this episode held.
Angela Watercutter, Wired – With resurrection now a factor, Watercutter makes some adjustments to her Game of Thrones-themed dead pool.
Alan Sepinwall, Hitfix – Sepinwall was sadly disappointed and unsurprised at the end reveal of “Home.”
Brandon Norwalk, A.V. Club (Unsullied) – Relishing in the return of many characters, Norwalk gushes over the Greyjoys, Lannisters, and of course, the Starks.
Jen Chaney, Vulture – Is not a fan of the pacing of the episode, noting the episode is an “hour-long exercise in provocation that doesn’t fully provoke.” Nonetheless, she offers commentary on the resurrection of Jon Snow.
David Malitz, The Washington Post – Headlining with a hilarious fan reaction video to that ending, Malitz breaks down his favorite moments from “Home.”
Sonia Saraiya, Salon – Saraiya shares her frustrations with Pyke and the savagery of Ramsay Bolton.
Laura Stone, Hey, Don’t Judge Me (Unsullied) – Sharing in the fan’s joy of Bran’s return with such a rich Stark-themed flashback, Stone praises the many great moments this episode.
Stay tuned for Bex’s video recap round-up later this week! You can also discuss the episode in our open chat where fans were given more than enough to talk about in “Home.”
What were your favorite reviews? Let us know below!
Hodor!!!
The description for Sepinwall’s review isn’t accurate – he actually has a fairly negative reaction to this week’s episode.
In fact, I’m a bit surprised as I loved the episode, but there are a lot of mixed to negative reactions from recappers this week.
JC,
I have been pretty negative since season 5 and did not like the premiere. That said, Home was a top 10 episode for me. Hopefully, Oathbreaker keeps it going!
saw that too. Lots of people seem to have problem with the pacing of the show.
can we take a moment to realize how beautiful Lyanna is? like, the casting is perfect.
young Rodrik, Lyanna, Benjen, Hodor, Eddard. completely perfect casting, man.
taim,
And that is exactly why GoT shouldn’t go on forever (although I don’t agree with the negative reviews). People get bored, and want something new. The reaction here was almost unanimously positive, which rarely happens. The fan reaction is the most important thing (albeit it is nice to have a great critical rception).
Heads up….it is Laura Stone NOT Laura Jones. And she is the best of lot after all the drama on the heavier sites. Give her a shout out. Just remember she is unsullied and there will be a price to pay for leaving spoilers on her site.
lots of cunts
/s
I just posted in the recap, but I’ll say it again here:
I’m a little surprised at the unanimous praise over here. I’ve found both episodes so far to be just “pretty good”. I never felt very excited last night. I don’t know why, but I suspect maybe I just don’t feel very invested now that the show has past the books. It feels fan-fictiony to me. The dialogue feels off. The deaths seem forced and pointless (Doran, Roose).
I loved the young Ned/Lyanna flashback, and Jon’s resurrection… but some scenes just felt slow and kind of boring (e.g. Tyrion unchaining the dragons, and Arya getting beaten up some more).
I’m hoping I get over this, and warm up to the rest of the season… but there’s no way this is even close to being in my Top 10 episodes of GOT.
mau,
LOL. Perfect response.
I’ve noticed a lot of reviewers haven’t seemed to be in love with the season so far. I don’t think the season is any noticeably worse than the previous ones either. Possibly they’re just getting tired of the show, most of the negative comments seem to be about pacing and/or Ramsay. Which I guess isn’t unexpected, considering how long the show’s been running now.
Maybe a good sign than that D&D are saying only 13 or so episodes are left after this season. Better to be a bit rushed trying to wrap things up with a bang than to go out with a long whimper.
JCDavis,
JC,
Fixed! Thanks for those.
I can’t believe some critics (namely time and vulture) didn’t like it. I think saying the episode was slow or had pacing issues is bonkers. 2 major deaths, a parting of the ways with Theon and Sansa, tyrion releasing the dragons…. It was a very eventful episode, how could it have quicker pacing? There was also payoff with balons death and seeing cersei face her son. I thought it was a top 10 episode and boggles my mind some critics thought it was slow or had no payoff
I really can’t take seriously anyone who has a problem with pacing of E2.
And I really think that is an exaggeration to say that a lot of reviewers haven’t seemed to be in love with this season. There are few of them who don’t like the show that much, just like always. It is normal.
Reactions are good, just like always, and GoT will take another Emmy this year.
What the fuck is a Lommy?,
Ok, Chester the Molester
It seems like some people are just automatically writing off any episode in which Ramsay appears. The complaints start off ostensibly about pacing or some such thing and then turn out to be “too much Ramsay!”
The promised prince,
You can see in the comment section on Vulture that people are literally laughing at person who wrote that review.
mau,
LMAO! Perfect!
I understand that if any more dumb ass critiques come pouring out of those cunt mouths of theirs, I am going to have to eat every fucking chicken in in this room!
Some of the reviews were much more harsh than I expected. Just because the fan base knew that Jon Snow would return, did not make his comeback any less spectacular. The episode was titled Home. I think the episode would have been more aptly titled Faith. Many were tested, not just Melisandre…
This weeks theme of faith even extends to the fans. We unsullied have had faith for 10 months that our beloved Lord Commander would return and our sullied book readers have for years! We have had little faith that Theon Greyjoy would ever be anything but Reek, and have held out beyond all hope that one day two Starks would again be under the same roof. We now seem closer than ever.
As for Ramsey Bolton, I was disappointed that Roose had no parting words, and would be sending no one Ramsey’s regards..but overall the scene was more about a demon’s ascension than our loss of Roose, poor dense Walda, and their pink cheeked son. I was chilled by the new Lord Karstark’s deadpan reaction to the murder of Lord Bolton. The mention of House Umber included in the fold of Stark mutineers,
Ramsey has faith that those three houses will be enough to hold his claim.
The Lannisters have now put their faith back into themselves. (Plus one FrankenMountain, of course). I am waiting for the big Darth Vader I am your father speech from Jaime to Tommen, but I doubt his has the same emotional ring it did with Myrcella. Cersei had a much deserved moment with her son. His inability to protect the women he loves left him ashamed, bereft, and in a similar mind state as Melisandre. (See the trend?)
Lex,
I know what you mean when u say that there’s a connection loss with the show now it’s past the books. I’ve heard good feedback from this episode as well as the bad. It wasn’t perfect but I enjoyed it. I really wanted to see Baelish hopefully next episode.
As for the resurrection, the thing I don’t get is that Melisandre was supposed to perform the same ritual as Thoros, right? So you mean to tell me that the numerous times he performed it, he cut/washed Berics hair? No, actually back in season 3 we saw him do the ritual and he definitely didn’t ask anyone for scissors
Isnt suprising the book purists despice GoT now.
I am quite sure that all the critics that considered this episode uneventful are just salty they didn’t get their usual 4 screeners.
from what I gathered, a lot of critiques consider Ramsey to be a too stereotypical villian, the writers constantly try their best to remind us what an evil creep he is so that his death will be even more satisfying when it happens. With some things I have to agree, I prefered Roose over him, he was less too obvious evil and more charismatic.
The promised prince,
Being badly paced doesn’t necessarily equate to being slow.
I disagreed with most of Jen Chaney at Vulture’s review, but she summed up my feelings when she said: “”Home” essentially suffers from the same epidemic that infected much of season five: It lays a lot of narrative groundwork without breaking much new ground. Even though big things happen — Balon Greyjoy plummets to his death, Ramsay stabs his way to the head of House Bolton, Bran returns having aged nearly as much as Melisandre when she’s sans necklace — it feels like we’re treading a tiny bit of water.”
This is where the pacing suffers, really. It zips through the big events as if action and death scenes should always be executed quickly, whereas it meanders at the weirdest of times, when there really isn’t much suspense as we all know what’s going to happen.
That said, it’s all opinion, right? And how else were they going to do the JS resurrection? For me, the only reason there was no suspense here was because of social media and fan expectation. If the show had been made twenty years ago, it wouldn’t have suffered from this problem.
My favorite recaps this week other than the ones mentioned here were on SBNation, Yahoo, and Previously.TV. Not as think-y as most of these, but well versed in the show and lots of fun to read.
Imdb ratings
Season 1
Episode 1 – 8,9 (14.855 voters)
Episode 2 – 8,7 (11.302 voters)
Season 2
Episode 1 – 8,7 (10.016 voters)
Episode 2 – 8,4 (9.148 voters)
Season 3
Episode 1 – 8,7 (10.868 voters)
Episode 2 – 8,5 (9.068 voters)
Season 4
Episode 1 – 9.0 (14.792 voters)
Episode 2 – 9.7 (24.661 voters)
Season 5
Episode 1 – 8.4 (12.031 voters)
Episode 2 – 8.5 (9.045 voters)
Season 6
Episode 1 – 8.4 (12.936 voters)
Episode 2 – 9.7 (10.940 voters)
Not bad
I’m not surprised at the complaints on pacing. I always thought I liked faced paced episodes and even complained about the slow burn at the start of season 5 but the truth is it makes it hard to stay fully engaged when you jump around a lot. Here’s hoping that they slow it down a tad over the next few episodes. But I’m not complaining. Really I am not.
I liked the Rolling Stone guy’s comment about the chaos factor being upped in the seven kingdoms. Dorne, Winterfell, Kings Landing, Iron Islands, child in Vale, Riverlands a mess.
Roose and Balon were bad but strategic in the mode of Tywin.
Ramsay is being set up to die later this season. Maybe the mad dog gets killed by his dogs or Ghost.
I certainly don’t agree with the view it was slow. If anything, I thought it moved almost too quickly, at least in terms of not having a chance to process what just happened before the next big thing happened. Had it moved any more quickly, it would have been too much for me, but as it stands, they danced on that line, but didn’t cross it, thus, I was left breathless, but in a really great way.
Last night I said I’d never been so excited for a rewatch, and while I did rewatch it, I’m still actively looking forward to seeing it, again. Sure, I’ll watch episodes more than once, but that tends to be more for informational purposes, not because I was so blown away I just have to see it, again.
It sure is fun, at least for me, being somewhat Unsullied!!!
Balon01,
Or combined
S1 – 8.8
S2 – 8.5
S3 – 8.6
S4 – 9.3
S5 – 8.4
S6 – 9.05
I feel genuinely bad for Tommen & Walda Bolton. Tommen has been a good kid, he’s headed toward a dark path : /.
Poor Walda, holy crap that was brutal even by GOT standards. Ramsey’s death will be incredibly satisfying….
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
One of the best responses I have seen here!
I feel bad for people that didn’t love last nights episode. Really, their loss.
WinterRy71,
Hey, I wish I loved it. I’m just being honest. I’m just not really excited so far this season. I actually felt similar last year, too. Maybe I’m getting bored of the show? Who knows.
Jon is back, Leicester won the title. Dreams do come true after all.
Fez,
I agree,the end should be near…we will have the resolution of the TV story and in 2 years when the show is over,TWOW will come out and that will be the END of it…At least for me because I´m pretty sure the last book(s) we won´t be seeing 🙁
Combine the fact that the reviewers didn’t get screeners…. and some of them are closer to book purists…. it isn’t a shock that they are being negative about the show.
I saw the same complaints about season 5. After 9 months I rewatched season 5 and it showed absolutely no downgrade from the previous seasons.
This show’s fan base is an interesting study in human behavior. Some people like to be in “the know”. And when they are not, their feelings get hurt.
https://twitter.com/caricevhouten/status/727218033979232256
Lol Carice!
The Starks are going to be the Leicester City of this season!
For my part I’m not surprised that Industry insiders don’t care for the show etc and whinge, after all it is Fantasy and that is “beneath them”
I actually stopped listening to critics and media establishment a long time ago as they are full of PC based ideology on what they want the world to be. ASOIF was so refreshing as it reflected what actually does happen, or there are cruel twists etc
To be fair it actually matches what I’ve read about the initial reception to AGoT back in 1993, not much of a critical reception but the book took off via people recommending it and slowly it became a high selling book
This series, show and book wise has always been a matter of the show gathering fans via touching a chord and resonating, it’s never been about critics
After watching the end of the last episode, I HAD to make this animated GIF… Hope you like it! 😀
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1484/26508080100_6c9f4a7fb3_o.gif
Pulp Snow 😀 😀 😀
To be completely honest I wasn’t blown away by it, my expectations were too high and I was spoiled. I think it could have been better especially Bran’s flashback & Tyrion with the Dragons. But I still loved it and it’s #17 on my list.
I’m a bit afraid because I have a feeling that this was supposed to be one of their strongest episodes for Season 6. Do you think every episodes from now on are going to maintain that standard or be even better ?
Sam Coleman (young Hodor) with the HYPE
https://twitter.com/SamColemanActor/status/726941518112690177
Maisie 😀
https://twitter.com/Maisie_Williams/status/727264721997549568
There is absolutely no information that indicates this is the case. It was a good episode, and I’m sure there is more to come.
This is why I stopped reading reviews a couple of seasons ago. Granted, I don’t need everyone to agree with me, but the fact that people had issues with the pacing of this episode almost boggles my mind. It was no different than it’s been throughout the entirety of the show’s existence. I think the critical backlash, if you can call it that, is in response to season 5 and is exacerbated by not receiving screeners this year.
Personally, I did not like season 5 very much, but loved this episode and thought the premier was stronger than last year’s, and on par with season 2 and 3. I have never found Ramsay an interesting villain, yet I found his scenes to be very strong last night. He looked like a dangerous psychopath and not a troll.
I’m happy with the season so far. Fan response seems to be strongly positive. And that is all that matters.
Seems to me the second episodes have always gotten mixed reviews, aside from The Lion And The Rose. I’m annoyed with how Roose went out, but this was still a big improvement over last year’s ep2. Better than Dark Wings, Dark Words and The Night Lands too.
Cba with critics. They just a person.
Right now I feel like Wun Wun. Negative comments are pesky human arrows nothing more.
Is it Sunday yet? 😀
The one thing I agree with the critics about is – what the hell do all these Ramsay scenes add? I posted this in the initial watch thread, but the Ramsay/Walda scene was way too dragged out. We knew what was coming and it was irritating how credulous she was, how long the whole thing was totally unnecessary.
Seriously, what does this scene add about Ramsay that we don’t already know? He’s a fucking maniac. D&D have this weird fetish for drawing out these violent scenes that are violent for the sake of grotesque violence.
How much more do we need to see of Ramsay killing and torturing people do we need before we’re like WE GET IT.
Reading the reviews I have the feeling I’m watching an entirely different show! My cable provider puts on an amazing GoT version. I’m so fortunate.
I feel many reviewers are getting really smug, like the High Sparrow. Now that they are better known (in part thanks to GoT!) and competing among themselves and with a legion of other spontaneous reviewers for “likes” and “subscriptions”, the louder you get the better… or so they seem to think. I just hope it does not become a case of the parasitic plants killing the host tree.
All the complains about the “underwhelming twists” forget that for 10 months during the off season the fandom and the “specialized” media were vulturing over every single theory and morsel of information from the set. Heck! Media was printing even tin foil theories discussed on these and other boards.
Yeah, when you have covered a gazillion possible angles, chances are somebody was right about what was going to happen, and yeah, if you read it or heard it before you may not be as surprised as you would’ve been if you hadn’t. But this feeling has to do with our obsession. It is not the show’s fault.
Neither is the show’s fault if people formed an idea of what was going to happen and the show goes in a different direction. Your theory was not right… sorry! Get over it.
And seriously, Hibberd at EW… the guy has been sitting on the cast interviews for how long? He knew what was going to happen.
So this is my updated list of all Game of Thrones episodes ranked from my favorite to least favorite :
1. Hardhome
2. The Rains of Castamere
3. Blackwater
4. The Children
5. Baelor
6. Kissed by Fire
7. Mother’s Mercy
8. The Watchers on The Wall
9. The Laws of Gods and Men
10. And Now His Watch Is Ended
11. Fire and Blood
12. The Mountain and The Viper
13. The Lion and The Rose
14. A Golden Crown
15. You Win or You Die
16. The Old Gods and The New
17. Home
18. Mockingbird
19. What is Dead May Never Die
20. The Pointy End
21. Two Swords
22. The Dance of Dragons
23. The Gift
24. Second Sons
25. High Sparrow
26. A Man Without Honor
27. Sons of The Harpy
28. The Climb
29. The Wolf and The Lion
30. Winter Is Coming
31. Mhysa
32. Kill The Boy
33. The House of Black and White
34. Breaker of Chains
35. Walk of Punishment
36. Oathkeeper
37. The Kingsroad
38. Garden of Bones
39. First of His Name
40. The Prince of Winterfell
41. The Red Woman
42. The North Remembers
43. Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things
44. The Ghost of Harrenhal
45. Lord Snow
46. The Prince of Winterfell
47. Dark Wings, Dark Words
48. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken
49. Valar Dohaeris
50. The Nights Land
51. The Wars To Come
52. The Bear and The Maiden Fair
I like the Rolling Stones review for its commentary on the beautiful visuals. My fave that he didn’t mention was how the cut from the storm on the bridge to the beach in the morning was somewhat blinding. There wasn’t much light to speak of, but the transition was breathtaking
Pounce,
The second episode of the season? Surely, it was meant to be a big episode, but in all respect, its only a second episode. The intended big (and best) episodes are usually 9 and 10.
Great episode, but not meant to be the best of the season, I think. It is what we got, and for an episode 2, I’m not complaining 🙂
Some of these reviewers just sounded whiny. Boo hoo, we saw it coming. It was spoiled by the fact I checked a million websites and pretty much stalked some actors. This show isn’t as fast paced as Martin’s books (???).
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Im happy with it too. But I think the reviews are interesting. It seems that the expectations are simply through the roof and that is part of the problem. The show is just too damned good for its own good with the reviewers ?
Daegon,
I doubt 3,4,5,6,7 are going to be better to be honest. This one had a lot of big moments, but something felt off. I don’t know…maybe the dialogues ?
Pounce,
Yeah true, they did have a different writer for this episode. Still thought the writing was better than The Red Woman, which is strange because that episode had D&D writing.
Excited for Bryan Cogman though! He has always written some of the best, such as Kissed by Fire & Laws of Gods and Men. Any news on which episode(s) are his this season?
Daegon,
My guess is Episode 4 and 5, he worked with Sackheim and Bender.
You know a show is huge when the preview for the next episode hits 1.5 millions views in a day…
Pounce,
Another fact to add: These two first episodes happened to be directed by Jack Bender, who did some not-so-great episodes last season featuring Sansa’s rape. Next episodes have a new director, and usually when episodes have new directors the episode feels slightly different and fresher.
Which makes me excited because the Hardhome guy is directing the last two of this season
Great interview with Patrick Malahide. Sad to see him go, but definitely one of the best death scenes and that’s high praise for show with many great ones.
http://ign.com/articles/2016/05/02/game-of-thrones-patrick-malahide-on-balon-greyjoy-being-the-last-of-the-five-kings
Daegon,
Jeremy Podeswa directed the first two, Jack Bender is directing Episode 5 and 6.
I think Podeswa is a great director for atmosphere but the guy isn’t very good with action…like David Nutter.
And yes, Miguel Sapochnik is the MAN.
Daegon,
Sansa’s wedding was one of the best directed scenes in the show..
100% agree
For example, the Stonemen action was terrible, however the all atmosphere that built to that was amazing.
mau,
Agreed.
Joffrey’s Cunt,
I can’t wait to see what Bender has to offer, he’s great with fantasy elements and action, just like Miguel. We’ll probably get some White Walkers in Episode 5 or 6…
Really? I don’t know much about bender except from lost.
Could you advise me some fantasy and action stuff from him?
Pounce,
Miguel was the best. He had the perfect mix of the small talking scenes (Remember Tyrion and Dany’s convo?!) to the high suspense (white walkers commencing their attack) all to an amazing epic white walker battle.
I also liked the other episode he directed, The Gift, also one of the better ones of season 5.
mau,
The overall episode wasn’t, especially the Sand Snakes.
Looks like night’s episode had some of the most divergent fan and critical reactions of this entire series’ run. Myself: I thought it was good, but I can see how some would dismiss it as too reminiscent of fan fiction (the resurrection, Tyrion and the dragons, Euron and Balon; this episode was jam-packed with fanboy catnip). I don’t know if it’s the dialogue or the flow of the story or what, but something seems to be absent now that D&D don’t have any text to use as a template. I’ll come out and say it: I miss George’s voice here. If only he could write faster.
Right this is really starting to bug me now. Love the books and the show but you always got a feeling all the people who had wronged the Starks in someday would get their punishment at the hand of Starks like a traditional villain but now they all seem to die at the hands of others which is still good but i didn’t feel roose’s death as much as I would have if it had happened at the hands of Jon or LS etc etc.same for Joffrey. Please let them get their revenge!!
Joffrey’s Cunt,
I only saw Lost, he was the best director of the show. But if you look at his resume he has done a lot of fantasy/action driven TV shows.
This is absurd. Ironborn stuff is from the books and the resurrection is anything but fan fiction. It will happen in the books.
Who’s directing episodes 3 and 4?
Natalie Bochenski who used to do Game of Thrones recaps at the Sydney Morning Herald, has her own independent recap at her blog site. I enjoyed her recap at the Herald, so I am glad she is continuing with it independently
http://cheeseburgergothic.com/show/6588
I simply do not read any reviews. I am my own reviewer and I don’t really care one way or another what anyone else says. If I like something it’s bc I’m cool with it, if I dislike it’s bc I didn’t feel cool with it. Simplicity has it’s advantages. Sometimes LESS is more and the less I let others infiltrate my thinking process the less headaches I have. But I get why others read reviews.. to see others viewpoints on how a scene was done (for example) but for me it just doesn’t matter. I chose to use this site as a means to vent or speak out on what I like and don’t like because there is FEEDBACK. I like interaction and seeing others views, but the best part is that we can all speak and say how we feel and interact with one another. When you just read others reviews you can’t respond or interact with the reviewer to ask why they said what they said. It’s left open to too much interpretation. IMHO. That being said I was a little disappointed in the first episode because it seemed too short but I loved the second episode and I am happy overall with the show in general. How much criticism can you make against D&D when if they didn’t make the show to begin with, there wouldn’t be any criticism in the first place. It’s their show and they can do with it as they choose. I try not to be too critical but have voiced criticism on some instances. I just enjoy reading the posts here and love this site.
Jack Bauer 24,
Dan Sackheim
RBloodworth,
Your three instances of fan fiction are 1) something that probably happened in the books or close enough (Euron), 2) something that will happen in the books (Jon), and 3) something that doesn’t seem terribly unlikely (Tyrion). Not sure you’re using “fan fiction” right here…
RBloodworth,
Nah…most people loved it. Of course the show will never get as much praise as Season 1-4, regardless of its quality. There will always be that part of the fandom who doesn’t like the idea of the show overtaking the books. And of course critics who changed their minds after Season 5.
The time when everyone loved the show is over, we must accept it.
Thanks! Really looking forward to “Oathbreaker” since it will be the first episode back with Jon rezzed. Big task for Sackheim and I’m confident he’ll deliver. I’m guessing Beinoff and Weiss penned “Oathbeaker” as well? Surprised they gave Jon’s rez to Dave Hill, although I’m sure they had a lot of input with that final scene.
So maybe “Oathbreaker” is in reference to Sir Alliser? Off with his head!!
Does GOT have a Guinness record for the most recasting in a series? For a show loaded with a mind boggling amount of characters that are confusing to more casual viewers, the sheer number of recasts are pretty unforgivable.
I have never once gotten that impression from the show or books and I don’t think anyone is going out as a traditional anything. Even this season, where there will probably be
I doubt it’s going to be clean or straightforward. I don’t think this is that kind of story.
I’m afraid that Jon won’t remember Sansa. 🙁 I keep thinking of Beric talking about pieces of his soul/memory being chipped away each time the Lord of Light brought him back.. and I’m under the impression Thoros tried to revive him much closer to Beric’s actual death…. I mean, Jon was dead as a door nail for what? 24 whole hours? That’s why I’m afraid Jon may (hopefully just temporarily) forget who Sansa is and all of us Stark fans will be doubled over when the reunion happens then that blow hits.
I HOPE I AM SO WRONG!
The dialogue now isn’t as strong as Martin’s (not much we can do about that) but I thought the pacing was much, much better in this episode. A great episode imo.
Yeah, I thought the episode was one of the series best, so I’m surprised at all the bad reviews they’ve been getting from critics. Part of me thinks they’re still butt hurt at not getting screeners (you know how critics hate to watch things with the peons). But I also think the show’s entered its damned if you do/damned if you don’t phase, because the whining is all over the map.
I kinda agree with this. Part of it is that so much of the good dialogue was in KL and the Small Council, and that just isn’t a factor anymore. Some of it is due, I think, to the size of the show having grown so much, they simply don’t have the time to give the writing that one last pass. I don’t necessarily think it has to do with GRRM’s absence. Some of the show invented stuff earlier (like Arya-Tywin in S2) had some of the strongest writing they’v ever done. And still, last night had some great lines (“I wasn’t drowning. I was home.”)
Demon Monkey,
Except for Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall, exactly which episode hasn’t jumped around a lot. That’s kinda what the show’s done since S1.
I haven’t read the books but I thought of something while watching the episode again. I read comments how people were not sure why Davos would approach Mel and ask for her help. I too see how it wasn’t needed … But I’ve accepted that she may have needed a push, and Davos was desperate. Whatever we have Jon back
But in the books
I imagine if you went back and looked at recaps of earlier episodes there would be similar complaints about pacing. Early episodes tend to be slow builds and table setting sort of affairs. I think the criticism is probably more pronounced now because nobody knows where it’s going, so there’s no benefit of the doubt any longer.
A few of the other complaints I’ve seen I find kind of amusing. One is, of course, the idea that the resurrection was predictable and underwhelming. I mean, I feel like that was kind of inevitable given that people have been imagining scenarios for years. But the more ridiculous one is that some people have a problem with being consciously deceived by the creators and cast of the show, as if they didn’t have to keep that a mystery to allow time for Martin to reveal it in the next book–which of course he didn’t finish in time.
In general, predictability seems to be a main complaint I’ve noticed. Like Ramsay killing Roose, Walda, and baby. It would have been totally out of character for Ramsay to do anything else. While I tend to agree that it wasn’t really necessary to see Ramsay release the hounds again, folks seem just as likely to complain about not seeing a death (e.g. Stannis) as they are about the show being gratuitous.
I have plenty of issues with the show (many of which are, I think, actually a symptom of the books), but it seems that in most cases D&D are in a no-win situation with many viewers. No matter what they do, people are going to complain about something.
I agree. But to be fair, despite what can be said of Martin for things like getting sidetracked on tangential storylines and writing some things into “knots”, he is a pretty damned brilliant dialogue writer. Plus he has had years upon years to write it.
Just because the GoT script writers don’t always live up to that exalted standard doesn’t mean they are bad dialogue writers. There is plenty of great stuff like the “That’s what I do. I drink and I know things”. Sure, you get a couple of clunkers like the “bad pussy” line and going to the “cock-less” joke well once too often. But those kinds of things have been few and far between.
Ugh,i’m just so done with movie/tv critics and their pretentiousness,the only movie critics i respected were Siskel and Ebert,the rest range from mediocre to trash . That scene from the movie Birdman pretty much says it all about critics .
Danielle Stark,
The Lightning Lord wasn’t always revived immediately and it’s still up for debate if Jon’s resurrection mirrors Beric’s. Though, whether that helps or hurts Jon’s memory I have no idea. hype
You know, I can actually see the Starks (Jon and Sansa) getting a win over the Boltons only for all the dead to rise off a battle field and take over Winterfell, turning the win into a loss.
That’s just the kind of story it is.
Except for a few quotes coming directly from the books, the last time they relied heavily on Martin’s dialogue was in S1 (and even then a lot actually came directly from the show writers).
So I don’t really get this complaint.
So can we just write the Tower of Joy reviews now: meh. Underwhelming. Boring. Predictable. Knew it.
zod,
The thing is,Martin’s dialogue is really overrated imo,especially in the last two books where his prose became terrible and cheesy as hell,how many times did we have to read where do whores go or words are wind and stupid shit like that ?
JC,
I was surprised at how little knowledge some of these bloggers, writers and podcasters (aside from game of owns) used in evaluating this episode. I thought it was perfect. The ones that hate on the speed of devolooement are ridiculous. This isn’t dragonball Z where we need seasons of stalling. As a reader and watcher I’m glad snow comes back when he did. Hodor
Marcus,
Couldn’t agree with you more. I just felt like the words “ok, your not a comedian and I’m not listening/reading your review to get ideas for a new stand up” went through my head too much. Just write your review based off content, not your horrible lack of wit. I was very surprised by the lack of knowledge of some of these reviews
I think maybe we sometimes get more offended by mixed or somewhat negative reviews on D&D’s behalf than they themselves probably do.
I mean, I think this show is pretty highly acclaimed both critically and ratings wise. I don’t think we should demand totally 100 percent all positive all the time reactions from critics or fans. Outside of maybe state controlled media in totalitarian regimes I don’t think that ever really happens.
Also, one thing that I try to keep in mind is that each week, reviewers are making pronouncements on one part (in this case 1/10th) of a whole. I’m glad they do it because it gives me more stuff to read about the show. But I don’t think it means very much until an entire season is judged. And when that is done, the show usually up winning awards.
As to Martin’s dialogue, I watched that terrible fan-made Tower of Joy short. Clunky. What works on the page does not work on the screen.
Ha, no, I guess what I meant was it’s kind of a zero-sum thing. He either gets resurrected or he doesn’t. Everyone already decided that he does. So the how of it becomes the challenge and it was always going to be hard to do in a way that lives up to everyone’s imagination. Some wouldn’t be satisfied if he didn’t warg into Ghost. Others wouldn’t be satisfied that he didn’t rise from the ashes of a pyre. I’m sure there are a million others that people have concocted.
Personally, I thought it was handled decently for what I think is a kind of just a silly cliffhanger. What I’m interested in ultimately is how his death and resurrection effects the story. Because right now I’m struggling to understand why it was important for him to die in the first place.
That’s what I like about where we’re at:The real story isn’t the resurrection, it’s what happens afterwards. Everyone who’s “underwhelmed” (I actually thought it was perfectly executed) are doing so with only a quarter of the story. I mean, if he comes back and is just the same guy without his NW oath, then it’ll seem much ado about nothing. But if being dead gives him insight into the NK world, and that helps hm in the war with the dead (if that’s what it turns out to be), then, yeah, it’ll be pretty cool.
Anyone worried about too much Ramsay, there is no way he lives beyond this season. There is just no room in the show for a villain like Ramsay when the real threat presents itself to everyone in Westeros. I just hope he doesn’t do too much more damage on the way out. Please don’t kill
I didn’t mind the scene, Walda has been around for 3 seasons and had about as many lines, was beginning to think she was just set decoration – which was an irritating comment about the industry in general, really couldn’t find a good fat actress? It was nice they gave her a little something to say before she departed.
I want him killed then resurrected by the NK, just to piss everyone off.
Danielle Stark,
I wouldn’t worry about him forgetting his family. I really don’t think that will happen. He may wonder why he thought it was a good idea to join the Night’s Watch in the first place though! 😀
Which GRRM makes worse by having her be so sweet, you don’t want to care cause you know she is doomed, but how can you not. Damn you GRRM. 🙂
zod,
Exactly. The show has relied very sparingly on George’s dialogue since season 2. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but to be making this complaint now as if this is something new is odd and not really justifiable. IMO.
Might be more a reflection on the acting (fan-made?) Actors can make a big difference on how lines are delivered.
Loving the ToJ banner behind the countdown clock!
Re. my comment. It’s really more of an observation than a complaint. As I said, I loved this episode. The main thing I’ve noticed is that overall we get more dialogue as straight exposition. Martin is good at disguising that, often in quite poetic ways. He has the luxury of time to do that.
I like a lot of original scenes, going back to Season 1. The scene with Tyrion, Yoren and Benjen before he went off ranging, for example, which they added to bring the running time up. Writing from scratch is different from adapting or supplementing because you don’t have a foundation to work from and play with. I think the writers would agree that not having his books (including but not limited to dialogue since things that aren’t dialogue in the books can be turned into speech ) is a strain. That strain shows in the dialogue sometimes, imo.
Lingering question from this episode and the last. It didn’t seem well explained to me why Davos and friends barricaded themselves to protect Jon’s body. I don’t think they ever said explicitly they were protecting it for the chance of resurrection or to keep it from being burned, which is what I assume the rest of the Night’s Watch would want to do. And then when Tormund showed up he was immediately like “let’s gather wood and burn the body” and no one protested. So what was the justification for having such a standoff between Jon supporters and others?
Completely agree. I really hope there’s more to it than providing a loop hole for his Night’s Watch vows or fulfillment of some random prophecy (or both). I suspect there has to be more to it.
I got the impression they just brought him inside and then got stuck in there. I don’t think there was a grand plan. You’re right; it wasn’t made very clear.
Critics received the first 4 episodes of season 5 before they aired and the reviews were overwhelmingly positive yet those 4 episode were not that great. They were fine but there were plenty of flaws and weak spots to be criticized yet critics didn’t. Why? because it was still the trend to praise Game of Thrones at that time. However, after the overall mixed reaction to season 5 the narrative has changed. It is not in vogue to think very highly of the show anymore despite that Emmy win. This is why you see more critics being more critical and suddenly complaining about the pacing when the style of pacing and jumping around is the same as it always has been when they were all praising the show(though I know Sepinwal has always complained about this.) Reviews for those first 4 episodes of S5 would get far less praise today.
It doesn’t bother me if critics take a sour turn on the show except for the fact that it gives ammo to the haters and can influence some fans to think more lowly of the show if it is not getting the same critical raves as it used to. The fact is the episode got almost universal raves from the fans and that’s all that really matters. Don’t let critics influence your opinion of the show.
The Variety article about subverting tropes and how Jon should’ve stayed dead because he’s fulfilling rez tropes and that’s predictable raised my hackles. Would some people really prefer to ignore the groundwork GRRM put down just to keep subverting tropes? That’s terrible story telling. If that happens,what you’re left with is a bunch of disjointed stories ignoring previous foreshadowing and groundwork.
It’s especially hilarious because they brought up Ned’s death as a subversion of tropes when Ned’s death absolutely fulfills a few tropes: decoy protagonist and the old generation and/or parental figures dying so the new kids can take their place.
Like, argue about the the actual resurrection, the way it was done, whatever. But, to say that it shouldn’t have been done because that makes the story a conventional fantasy story is nonsense. It’s always been a fantasy story and GRRM doesn’t subvert tropes at all cost, either. Whew, had to get that off my chest.
slimchicken,
They were inside and made r clear they wanted to get the mutineers for their betrayal, but we’re outnumbered. That’s when Edd said he’d go get the Wildlings. It just so happened the Thorne cornered them in the room before Edd could get back.
I think this is part of it. Many of these reviews seem unnecessarily cynical and deliberately contrary. I do understand the gripes about the violence, and I get why some people are getting Ramsay-fatigue. But Jon Snow’s resurrection was just beautiful. Do we need to be constantly shocked by the show? Do they always have to subvert the tropes? Can we not just revel in the character and plot development, and the unbelievable quality of the show overall?
I can. And I see that for now, the vast majority of the fans feel the same. I share your hope that they don’t let the views of some jaded critics sway them.
Lisse,
What’s truly ridiculous is this article was written by the same person, Joanna Robinson who has been obsessing over Jon Snow’s fate throughout the off season. She was one of the first reporters to declare that he was definitely coming back, many months back. And now she says he should have stayed dead so that the show can continue subverting tropes….Crazy!! Atl least she could have waited till we actually saw the fallout of the resurrection, before passing judgement!
Lex,
Totally agree….taking off my rose tinted glasses of being obsessed with the show, there seems to be too much happening at once but without a great deal of story telling, or maybe too much progression at one time like they are rushing the show. It will certainly be ruined if that’s the way they are going and will do fewer episodes for the final seasons.
Lex,
I’m still puzzled about the Hodor flashback. What was it that traumatized Willis? If it is not his name, what does “Hodor” mean then? It now seems likely that what happened to Hodor will become important to the entire story at some point. But where is the connection? Does anyone have an idea?
I can’t remember that GRRM had given any indication towards such a twist in the books, and I don’t think I have heard of much fan theories that dealt with this question (besides the theory that Hodor refers to the “great other” – but I don’t see the connection here). So this scene was really unexpected and exciting at the same time.
Lisse,
Sheesh, GoT already killed off a main character. If they’d done it again, people would be saying it was repetitive. Can’t win, eh?
People have just had too much time to obsess over it. That’s inevitable when it’s ten months between seasons. I expect things will calm down now that the question of Jon’s survival has been answered. What comes next is more important.
Haha these hilarious reviewers man, pacing problem? SERIOUSLY? The show’s pacing is exactly what it was in earlier seasons and in fact this is one of my top favorite reasons for being incredibly infatuated with the show, they never rush it to big moments instead we always have slow yet brilliantly crafted scene after scene until we reach to huge game changing moments of each season’s last episodes. This is their style and i simply can’t be happier that D&D are sticking with it.
Boy i’m so glad that i never read these critics, there’s nothing like this show on TV and in two years it’s going to end.
Tycho Nestoris,
Exactly my feelings.
Daughter of Winter,
Hhm.. I think last season had pacing problems but the last episode was perfect. Very nicely done.
Allison,
Lots of people name their swords.
Lots of cunts” lol
Best quote in game of thrones
Ravyn,
I am a very harsh critic of the show´s fifth season and I simply loved the second episode.
Loved the episode. It was easly a top 10 episode.
And the best is yet to come!
Marcus,
I loved the dialogue and writing in the first 3 books. I think they are almost perfect.
The next 2 books were just terrible trope/cliched fantasy books. The dialogue was terrible.
Maybe I will sound a bit harsh but if passing the books is your problem, I don’t think you were ever really invested in the story itself, but more in adaptation. Another possibility is that you spent too much time speculating (overspeculating?) and now the resolution felt anti-climatic and not satisfying for you (Roose’s death for example).
Adaptation was never my main criteria for ratings and I abandoned the boos completely after last year’s encounter with westeros org purists. The sad truth is, that TV series may be the only ending we will ever get.
Maybe you just got bored with it. But if you continue watching, please consider that TV series is now entering resolution phase. The twists are done. The knots have to be untangled
Classy as always!!
Well the Jon thing is was a given, Leicester winning though, that is a fucking miracle!! I’m so happy they did win. But so anticlimatic, on a monday without playing. They should’ve play both at the same time on a sunday
Lord Parramandas,
*abandoned the books
You hate the books?? I never would’ve said!! Please do bring the issue more 😉
a lot of critics are actually full of $#!+ ….it seems they don’t know what they are talking about …….or sometimes I wonder …have they even watched this or just read someone’s recap and started writing their reviews based on it. ………but some people are alrite ………They are honest ….
Same here. I don’t get mad to people that don’t, though.
Critics don’t like this season very much…I don’t really care to be honest, they have their own agendas. It’s funny though that when they loved the show “the new kids” in WOTW love them, and now those same guys jump at their throats.
For me the opinion of LEX, who has been a poster here for 8 years, has much more weight than those of the critics. Lex I felt like you last season but I really liked the second episode. Some thinks don’t really make sense, yes, but it was a given after the changes last season…once I internalized that it’s much easier for me to enjoy the ride 😉
The pacing issues everyone talks about are something that feels a little off as the action at the wall over the 1st 2 episodes has taken place over 24 hours whilst time at the other regions seems to be moving quicker.
There are some people who will never be happy.
Let’s see the recasts.
Mountain v2.0
Mountain v3.0
Daario v2.0 (probably the most egerious of the recastings)
Tommen (from an extra)
Mrycella (from an extra)
Lothos (?) Frey
Three-Eyed Raven
And that’s pretty all the recasting I can think of on this show, with only one being jarring (Daario). Not too shabby for a show that has hundreds of characters.
Pau,
I hate the last 2, I loved the first 3.
There’s a difference.
Josh L,
Daario’s recast was the only big one. The others were minor changes. I doubt the common viewer spotted that we got a new Myrcella or Tommen.
And I really don’t care about The 3-eyed Raven. It’s Max von ”freakin” Sydow!!!
We know man, you literally say how much you hate them and despise Martin in the comments of every post XD
Mihnea,
Exactly. I would not be surprised if the 3E Raven cold glamour or morph into anyone.
Pau,
I replied to a comment that mentioned Martin’s writing was no longer that good, my comment hardly came out of nowhere.
And no I don’t ”despise” Martin. I strongly dislike how he written his last 2 books. I even lost my respect I had for him as a writer but I don’t despise the man nor do I hate him.
Hell I even said how much I loved the first 3 books and consider them among the best fantasy books ever written. Witch of course you ignored.
But if that makes you feel better, feel free to think what ever you want.
slimchicken,
Love your avi, love your sentiments.
In other news, Ozzyman’s review is up, and it’s bloody perfect. Between Back in Black, the Opeth reference, the snowbook reboot and his typically smart analysis, I think it might be his best work. You’re a legend, Ozzy.
It’s the reasons you always give to as why you don’t like the last 2 books that give you away. I don’t like them as much either, because they’re clearly in need of heavy edting, but to say “they’re terrible trope/cliched fantasy books. ” is literally not true.
If you add to that you jump out to defend every little aspect of the show…why, man? Why do you need to attack the books in every post to defend the show? Why the show can’t do no wrong in your eyes?
I’m sorry but in my eyes that makes people like Mau, JackBauer24 and you a caricature. And as annoying as the book purists that nickpicksat every little aspect of the show over in Sue’s recap
To both I have the same advice: just leave the books alone and enjoy the show 😉
iridium,
I love Ozzy man. Always puts a smile on my face!!
Very kind of you, thank you.
Pau,
After 3 sublime books that I loved, books that avoided most, if not all the fantasy tropes common to this genre, to read the last 2 books and find that nothing I liked was in there anymore, common phrases were added at ridiculous levels, characters I loved got destroyed, they were simply not the characters I felt in love with, they were jokes at times.
The pacing was horrible. Martin went from evolving Jaime’s character in 3 chapters, I consider these to be among the best chapters ever, to doing less developing to Tyrion’s character in 10 chapters.
We went from a dark, gritty world, filled with a bit of magic and wonder, to the joke that is Meereen and Essos. We went from focusing on major characters, those we knew from the very first book to Arianne and Quentyn, I don’t dislike Quentyn though, I just don’t think he deserved to be a POV. Bringing people from the death at every turn.
Cheep resurrections. Cheep plot points like Griff even cheeper characters like Arianne.
One-note characters like Victarion and turning Ramsey/Roose into a joke.
We went from a real world with fantasy added to it, where justice wasn’t always served, to a world were a fat lord puts people into pies.
I like the show, because it killed and removed all my complaints about the last 2 books. To this is how those books should have been for me.
This will be my last comment, on this subject.
Off topic:
The Kingsmoot is in episode 5 right?
Any of you guys think we’ll be seeing Euron again before that?
Joffrey’s Cunt,
Around there yes. Perhaps 4.. I’m not sure.
Mihnea,
“‘This is how those books should have been for me.”‘ Typo, can’t edit anymore
Joffrey’s Cunt,
Think so. We need some more set-up for him and Aeron. And Yara too, I’d imagine.
You know, for someone who feels the need to have a political symbol of petty nationalism as an avatar on a Game of Thrones website and therefore makes a political statement everytime a comment shows, it does strike me as bigoted to call out other posters on how they express themselves on here.
I really don’t believe that but let’s hope 😛
But what I really don’t understand is if you have it in you to be so overly critical, why is it that you never find a fault in the show? And why the need to bring up the books to defend the show, the same way the purists bring it to attack it?
Is this partisan mentality that really destroys any kind of debate in the internet and in real life. It shows in american politics the most, but is discouraging to see it reach even this corner of the internet that used to be a safe haven
O well
Let us hope so!
It’s my avatar on the internet in general, not just here. You think it’s petty and that I’m bigoted, without even knowing me, I think that says more about you than it says about me man 😉
https://www.instagram.com/p/BE79Q1nS_La/
😀
slimchicken,
Likely to rid him of his vows as lord commander
Caroline,
They weren’t protecting his body
They took his body and ran into a room while they understand what happened to Jon, maybe they can save him etc. Then they realize he is dead, and they say they need ghost because the rest of the men will defintely try to kill them. So they were hiding
By no means did I take it like they were protecting his body
Pounce,
I don’t think that this show was ever loved by everyone.
slimchicken,
Meh, I thought it was clear they were just hiding in there
There’s no way you leave your friends body out in the cold. Take it inside and plan your next move
JamesL,
Everyone I know loved this episode 🙂
I did love the episode but 2 of my casual friends were dissapointed…I was like wtf man? Why??
They say it was too “foreseeable”…whatever 😛
It reminded me of many episode wrote by Bryan Cogman, with a lot of shout outs to the books. I couldn’t be happier and I really can’t wait for monday!
Pau,
Yeah, interesting. And yet, you called me a caricature without even knowing me.
I don’t even know who you are but this ad hominem attack for no reason is what really destroys any kind of debate on the internet and in real life
Oh well
Pounce,
To add to my previous comment, I don’t know if you were on fan sites during seasons S2-S4 but the reactions to those seasons were much worse in fandom than to S6.
I remember how S4E10 was hated, just like it was the worst episode in history of TV.
Now things are really much different. many accepted during S5 that the show and the books are two separate things, and now we don’t even have the books to compare with the show.
And I really don’t see that much negativity towards the show, as it was in the fandom in previous years. I don’t think that this means that the show now is much better, but now we don’t have the books.
You’ve been posting here for 2-3 years now man, I think we all know you…you even have a picture of Benioff in your avatar. Which is totally fine, I love the guys 😉
But don’t tell me where your stand is not clear because it is
PS: Like again you had to bring up the books to defend the show, which was my point all along…
Pau,
Anyone can post whatever that choose. If you don’t like what you read scroll on.
Y’all keep leaving out Josh Wiggler of the Hollywood Reporter. He’s one of the biggest GoT fans out there, and he’s Sullied. (One of us! One of us!). Here’s his recap for “Home.” http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finally-reveals-jon-889192.
Pau,
So you think you have a right to call me a caricature because I have picture of Benioff in my avatar? !
You don’t even know why I put that picture there, but whatever.
You don’t have any right to insult posters here.
They can post whatever they want, as can I. I can scroll on, as you say, but I can also answer to those posts. Isn’t that the whole point?
We should be able to have an enriching debate without constantly attacking those who have minor quibbles (or even big ones) about the show, without constantly bringing up the books to defend it or having this absurd Partisan mentality.
And is on both sides, some of the arguments of the purists are just as absurd as “the show can’t do no wrong” mentality
Daughter of Winter,
Word… I don’t read them 🙂
Thank God they don’t make TV shows lol
Is not your avatar, is your history of posts
Lex,
That’s too bad that you feel that way. Maybe you should wait till the books come out?
mau,
LOL!!!!!!!!!!
Wyllie,
On top of that calling the new commenters and fans of the site “the new kids” which i found really offensive tbh!
Pau,
I don’t have “the show can do no wrong” mentality. You clearly didn’t read my posts, but whatever.
The point is, you don’t have any right to attack me on anyone else here for our opinions. You can disagree with us if you want, but you can’t insult us.
Actually, you can, but that really is destroying any credibility you could have.
If you don’t have anything to say about what I actually wrote in this comment section I will ask you to leave me alone.
Pau,
hahaha well…….. your casual viewer friends are smart then being able to foresee it lol.
Most of the people I have spoken to, both casual and hardcore, loved it.
I mean we all have different opinions…. you cant win with everyone, unfortunately. And to those not enjoying the show/season, its too bad really, for them.
I’m really excited for the Twitter recap! It’s my favourite part after a episode.
Can’t wait to see how people reacted to Jon’s resurrection!
Mihnea,
I KNOW SAME
viki,
terrible! poor girl.
Yeah… I know. I just think that’s how it would have been done in the books, and much prefer this way lol
I think Hodor saw something and keep saying what he saw since then…
what does look like word ‘Hodor’?
Other
R’hllor
.
.
.
LordDavos,
Ghost better get some action this season. You can’t have a giant, albino, badass direwolf and not use it! I was actually a little disappointed we didn’t get to see him tear into anyone last episode.
Mihnea,
Me too. I hope we also get some reactions from the cast.
Guys, guys, guys!
All of you who are surprised at the somewhat tepid critical reaction: there’s absolutely no reason for surprise. I don’t want to sound smug and self-congratulating, but I predicted this late last season. In fact, over the last year I wrote multiple posts regarding what I considered a likely “turning of the tide” where critics are concerned.
Reviewers and critics are a notoriously bandwagony lot; always have been, always will be. They were praising the show when it was safe to do so. The moment public discourse changed — Sansagate, the ever louder book vs show discussion, etc… — many of them sniffed the air and started airing grievances they might or might not have felt before.
This thing has been coming a long time. Best ignore them if you want to fully enjoy the coming season.
Mr Fixit,
And what you are predicting for the future? “Hate” from te critics from S6 to S8?
I have to admit, I watched the episode again and I liked it a lot better. I think I was just in a really off mood last night. I was sleep deprived and hungry so I was going nuts. My main problem with Davos, Ramsey, and Euron are the same, but not as bad.
I think Ramsey could’ve worked better for me if he didn’t take Walda out to the kennels to kill her in full view of everyone. And it still wasn’t the most creative way to kill Roose (and yes I get that it was homage to Rob).
Davos is still my biggest problem with the ep. Combination of the fact that he’s willing to drop his anger against Mel to get her to use blood magic to bring back Jon, for which I really wouldn’t understand why he would be that desperate to bring back Jon. Also, his whole pep talk with her was just strange. I guess he is over the fact that most likely she just got Stannis and Shireen killed in a pointless battle.
The Euron scene was good I just wish that last shot of him just could’ve been him smiling while wiping the blood off of his face, instead of initially having a full blown panic attack.
Other than that, I think most of the other scenes were pretty good aside from ending to Tyrion’s scene “punch me in the face”.
I think I’m back on the wagon guys.
Mr Fixit,
True. There’s only a couple that don’t seem to be influenced, like IGN and Sean Collins: both are critical when they need to, yet they focus on the episode at hand, and not waste time focusing on things like pacing (which was a problem in S5, admittedly, but certainly not in these first two episodes).
This episode deserves praise. In previous years (with the exception of S4), people were always complaining that the second episode of the season still has to do a lot of “catching up”, “setting up”, being “too slow and quite uneventful” and the season still having to properly “kick off”. None of that can be said about this episode, and the season has truly kicked off already. Bring on the next one!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
He doesn’t know what happened to Stannis/Shireen.
As far as he knows at this moment is that the Boltons killed everyone.
The episode was FANTASTIC! One of the best so far in the series and even better than 4×02 as an Episode 2!
This forum is the only one I’ll check in for now on, since it has honest and grounded opinions, unlike shitty fanatic ones like Reddit and IMDB, where people only complain and spoil other people’s pleasure for the show, regardless of its quality.
Yes, but it was her visions and her manipulation of Stannis that got them into that situation. It was her recommendation to bring Shireen. Remember end of season 5 Davos so distrusts Mel and Stannis that he asks to bring Shireen back with him to Castle Black? Then he has a conversation with her where it seems like he knows it will be their last.
Anyway, that’s just the tip of the ice berg, his hatred and distrust of her goes far far far far beyond that. Odd that he would want her to use “blood magic” a term he used in season 2 to bring back Jon because ummmmm he’s a good leader? More like it’s convenient for the plot!
This might help with your Davos issue:
“Why did Davos want Jon Snow alive on Game of Thrones? Somehow, above all others, the Onion Knight became Jon’s biggest champion and gee golly, are we all thankful for that! Honestly, I think it all boils down to leadership. Lady Melisandre and Ser Davos Seaworth have never really gotten along, but they do have one thing in common — they’re good judges of character, and they are good at pledging themselves to strong leaders. Stannis Baratheon may have been a bit of a bore, but he would have been much better on the Iron Throne than the last two, and maybe even the last three kings. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Davos knows something about Jon or his mysterious parentage that we don’t. He’s from Flea Bottom, where I’m sure rumors run rampant, but that still doesn’t seem likely. Davos is not a leader himself, but he needs someone to follow. Without Jon (and Melisandre, to be honest) he has no one. I think he sees that spark in Jon Snow that so many others have, and that’s why he was willing to fight for his life, literally.”
http://www.bustle.com/articles/158140-why-did-davos-want-jon-snow-alive-on-game-of-thrones-the-onion-knight-fought-hard
Has anyone seen ad for episode 3.. Ramseys gift. Is that an Umber giving him gift?? Please tell me its not who i think it is.. Anyone???
Dutch Maester,
Yes I perfectly understand all of that. Again, it’s not enough for me to think that Davos would drop his grudge against Mel and get her to use “blood magic” just because he thinks Jon will be a great leader. He didn’t want Stannis to bring Mel to King’s Landing to use “blood magic” to win him the Iron Throne.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Yeah, will never come close to agree on this.
He is a kind man, he more then anyone, knows how she must feel right now, that she lost everything she fought for, the man she believed to be holy…etc.
I found the scene very good, I loved that it was Davos who talked to Mel. They might have disagreed in method but they both all their faith in Stannis and lost everything.
They are both going true the same thing.
And Davos never asks her to do ”blood magic”, he asks if she can do something, if there is any chance at all. I would have agreed with you if Davos would have agreed with Mel and burn someone alive. But Mel simply says a prayer, no ”blood” is involved and no one is sacrificed.
Anyway, no point in arguing, that scene and Jon getting revived were my favourite this week.
Depends on the reception of Season 6. If it ends on a high note, in a way that critics and vocal segments of the public generally find satisfying, thought-provoking, sensitive in the minds of the (very powerful) social justice movement, etc, that goodwill is going to carry over to Season 7 and we’ll see a positive initial reaction to those episodes, regardless of their actual quality. If this backlash, earned or not, continues, then yeah, brace yourself for ever increasing levels of criticism. (Note: genie is out of the bottle, so we’ll never again see the almost over-the-top adoration of earlier seasons. That boat has sailed and is not coming back.)
As I said, best ignore it. For example, in my view no TV series comes close to the perfection that is the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica, yet TV critics and many viewers alike HATED the last “spiritual mambo-jumbo bullshit” season, going so far as to claim that it retroactively ruined everything that made the show great. And. I. Don’t. Care. Whatever. BSG had its ups and down, but it will forever remain one of the best SF (and non-SF) series of all time. Screw the haters. 🙂
Dutch Maester,
Davos clearly respected Jon. He didn’t went and ordered Mel to bring him back, that would have been out of character.
He went to the women he knows has immense power and asked if there is anything she could do.
Mihnea,
No way he is that empathetic. Remember how many people she burned in Dragonstone?All for renouncing her God, and now he feels sorry for her that her deluded prophecy didn’t work out? The guy who wanted to kill her after she taunted him about his son? No way he feels empathy for her.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Where did you see ”blood” magic?
It was a prayer…
Davos was against creating shadow monsters to kill your brother or burning kids alive.
Something that didn’t happen with Jon…
Low your expectations. Nothing will ever match the greatness we picture in our heads, and that goes for everything.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I believe he does. That’s why I love Davos.
I believe he feels empathy not because of prophecy but because they both lost the same thing, the man they believed in, the man they put their hopes in, Stannis.
Davos knows all to well what she feels right now.
Here I guess our discussion ends, there is no real way you can convince me he doesn’t have empathy for her, and sure as hell I won’t convince you.
Lex,
Tyrion with the dragons was boring? You saying that right there is proof that you are bored with the show. Arya getting beat up again? Make it sound like it has been going on for half a season like Theon and Ramsay in season 3. It was two scenes and she has already moved on. Hasn’t anyone realized the premier is never that great because it has set the table from last season to this season. There are certain aspects of the show that need approved, some dialogue and Dorne. But to say Tyrion with the dragons and him telling that story was boring and over exaggerating Arya’s training means that you are to hyped possibly.
Mihnea,
It honestly doesn’t bother me too much, and I can see it to be something Davos would do, because after season 3, they show us that both Mel and Davos agree that the real fight is in the North, against the long night.
Thoros, in season three, said this regarding how he brought Berric Dondarion.
“Thoros of Myr: [in English] I’ve always been a terrible priest. Drank too much rum. Fucked all the whores in King’s Landing. It’s a terrible thing to say, but… by the time I came to Westeros, I didn’t believe in our Lord. I decided that He, that all the gods, were stories we told the children to make them behave. So I wore the robes, and every now and then, I’d recite the prayers. It was just for show. A spectacle for the locals. Until the Mountain drove a lance through this one’s heart.
[Thoros points at Beric]
Thoros of Myr: I knelt beside his cold body, and said the old words. Not because I believed in them, but… he was my friend. And he was dead. And they were the only words I knew. And for the first time in my life, the Lord replied. Beric’s eyes opened. And I knew the truth: our God is the one true God… and all men must serve Him. “
So you can argue two things: Mel could have just tried on her own, without anyone talking to her about the possibility… thinking maybe, just maybe, she wasn’t completely wrong about everything. So she could have tried to revive Jon without anyone talking to her, because she said she saw him in the flames. And then it would not have bothered the people who didn’t like the conversation with Davos.
On the other hand, Thoros, who had no faith, only tried to revive Berric because he was his FRIEND…… and not because of anything else.
Where as Mel, having not had the push from Davos, may have not cared enough at that point to try and revive Jon… he wasn’t her friend or anything. So maybe, for plot purposes… they needed Davos to push Mel. That is what D&D felt was needed, and I accept it.
Though both would have worked for me.
Daeron,
Well it is to the point that WE GET IT Ramsay is bad. Really, he needed to feed Walda and the baby to the dogs but Roose only gets a knife. It is time to stop showing us Ramsay doing bad things. Now I want to see him do some actual politicking in his Ramsay Bolton sort of way leading up to this battle at the end. Where he is going to surely die!
About that gift I fear that it is Rickon but part of me thinks it is going to be Theon and we are going to say why oh why did you not go with Sansa.
I feel the same about the endless descriptions of The Mountain’s extreme violence in the books [endless rapes, brutalising prepubescent girls, setting children on fire, etc]. And to be honest Ramsay is probably more repulsive in the books than he is in the show. GRRM has his dogs rape people [Jeyne Poole], c’mon.
Sometimes I think most websites had their reviewers merely skim the books, because many of them don’t seem to remember the details within them.
Stargaryen,
I agree with you
But, I think his father only got the knife because I think, he actually cared for his father.
Everyone else, he doesn’t give a shit about!
Stark77,
Unfortunately, it looks like it is what you think.
Dee,
I still believe the Bolton story arc would have been much better if Roose had Killed Ramsey instead.
Because every strong Stark (men) is gone, Rickon not having an army, I think the Umbers choose Ramsey to stay in power.
But the Umbers don’t like the Boltons. But when they know about the Wildlings, they will fight for the Boltons.
I think Umbers will betray Sansa and Jon because of the Wildlings. When Davos comes there to talk to the Umbers, they arrested him and handed him over to Ramsey. Davos will burn.
Only Bran knows where Rickon is, so Sansa etc don’t know that the Umbers gave Rickon to Ramsey. And yes, I think this is the real Rickon.
Redxgod,
How so?
I would rather Roose, then Ramsay… even though I have wanted Roose dead since the red wedding.
Dee,
Only in the world of Westoros that a son caring about his father would put a knife in his chest LOL
Dee,
Roose is a more calculated big player that has been behind the red wedding. He has broken deal with Lannisters so is surrounded by his enemies. Ramsey has shown no ability to play the great game.
Ramsey is just an arrogant psycho whose arrogance will eventually lead to his down fall.
My guess is that Benjen and Willis will of course ignore the warnings and secretly start training together.
Whilst training, some accident will occur and leave Willis severely wounded / handicapped, thus making him the Hodor we know.
If this happens, it could even play a serious part in Benjen later on taking the Black… guilt can be a very strong motivation.
Redxgod,
Exactly
If Roose was still in charge, they may not fall.
But with Ramsay in charge… they will fall… which is needed for the plot, and for fans not go crazy
But I agree, I prefer WATCHING roose.
Atish Vaze,
Bahahahah right?
Stargaryen,
That’s why I liked Ramsey’s scenes last episode.
I loved how he kept his calm and bullied the Maester only with his looks. He came up with a good excuse.
He eliminated any rivals he had to his position. There is no one left to threaten him.
And….. I really loved how he said ”I am Lord Bolton”… He will try to act a bit as his father, no doubt, try to appear more lordly, in my opinion he already started.
Of course he won’t be as calculated as Roose, it’s just not his character, but I’m looking foward to see more of him.
Dee,
I loved Roose, the actor was amazing!
But it’s not like his death came out of nowhere. It was build up from S4, in my opinion.
I think the story just took a natural step, I did like Roose but his part was done.
Mihnea,
Hes not calculated at all. He is too rash and he will fail.
Mihnea,
for sure.
Dee,
I said ”he will try”
I agree that he isn’t and in the end it will be his undoing.
I thought a great, subtle exchange between Mel and Davos was this:
Davos: “You know why I’m here” (he believes she knows everything)
Mel: “I will when you tell me” (she’s given up on the flames and future-telling)
Mihnea,
Couldn’t agree more with everything you wrote there…the show fixed much of what was so disappointing about books 4 and 5.
mau,
Magnificent!!!!
To be fair, I’ve read the books beginning to end twice in the last 4 years – and I forget the details within them!
There is so much in the books my poor old brain can’t cope…
Even GRRM has admitted he has problems remembering everything, hasn’t he?
According to spoilertv “Home” did 7.29 for first airing. Still good.
http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/05/final-adjusted-tv-ratings-for-sunday.html
A Man,
Potential meanings of Hodor
Someone said “Hold the door!” Apologies to the original poster but I don’t wanna go find it.
Tycho Nestoris,
Might also be “Hold ‘er”?
What’s interesting is that young Wyllis already seems to have the large scar, so whatever caused it may not be a physical thing. Perhaps he got warged and was damaged. Who knows?
Just watched a part of the next ep preview. I have a feeling we’re going to be referring to him as Reekon after next episode…if we’re lucky.
Clob,
Oh that’s very nice. Fourth highest in terms of ratings behind 5.10, 5.01 and 6.01. Considering this episode’s ending, I expect it will go up next week!
Clob,
I’m guessing it will be back above 8 million next episode, and will settle back in to the 7.5 million range for most of the season.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah I agree. Only episode 9 or 10 could break the record.
Mihnea,
I loved Roose, the actor was amazing!
I don’t remember the exact quote but I laughed when he asked Ramsay about his “best men” getting owned. Who knew the Lord of the Dreadfort was so funny.
Not sure if I remember Lothos Frey, though I know the actor who portrayed the Frey that killed Catelyn is returning this year, so… Yeah.
In any case, you forgot Beric, who was also recast from a split-second extras role.
Tycho Nestoris,
He loved throwing stabs at Ramsey….
Pau,
I understand what you’re saying. But in the long run it is pretty futile to get engaged in debate with people who have become so into a work (ie: show, movie, book, etc.) that they can brook no criticism of it whatsoever. It’s something that has gone on for a long long time – comic books, Star Wars prequels, Lord of the Rings movies, videogames, etc. Heck, you can probably go back to the beginning of recorded history and before and find examples of the believe as I believe or you are bad mindset. Stephen Crane even made a poem about it:
The thing that helped me understand it is this piece on some of the more vitriolic “discussions” over the Batman v. Superman movie:
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/start-internet-flame-war-batman-v-superman-edition-002908394.html
It does tend to tamp down more reasonable discussion sometimes but it is what it is and I don’t think it’s going away.
Late to the party, damn the 24hr delay in my country, and boring real life stuff like work intervening. Just watched the episode twice, and WOW!
Last things first: that gasp for air! I literally jumped off my seat, with fright! I mean, somebody coming back from death is pretty freaky stuff, right? I always expected and wanted Jon to come back, but still…
I loved it that D&D didn’t go for the fireworks with bells on epic route. This was so simple, understated, and all the more powerful for it. And it wasn’t a ressurection, it was a rebirth. That gasp of breath, the first gasp of breath after birth, right? (“Kill the boy and let the man be born“, anyone?) It’ll be interesting to see how much of the old Jon Snow remains.
It’s amazing how many thoughts went through my head as I watched that scene, spellbound. Jesus’s body… (almost) nekkid Kit, yum… Mel washing the body, a la HoBaW… Noooo, Mel, don’t you dare cut Kit’s lovely hair! Oh, she’s sacraficing his most beloved thing (Robb’s joke from S1…)
(Apologies what you’re about to read, my Valyrian/Asshai language spelling isn’t up to scarch, this is how I’d write that in my language) “Hen zen doro onyos, hen khi persis, hen morghot gleison.” Several times over, with decreasing confidence… Nope, didn’t work. Disappointment, desperation…
Loved Tormund’s look. He’s like, “this southern knight and some foreign witch had me for a while but I’m outta here!” Mel leaves… We get a nice shot of Ghost sleeping beneath Jon’s table… Edd leaves… Now it’s only Davos… OMG, is HE going to kiss Jon? Nah, he, too, leaves, now it’s only sleeping Ghost and dead Jon…
Ghost stirs, and GASP! Panting, bewildered/terrified look in Jon’s eyes.
Perfect.
I also like it that it was slightly ambiguous. When we saw Thoros resurrect Beric, it was pretty instanteinous: a prayer and that’s it. Mel said the prayer several times and nothing happened. The slight lapse in time and the focus on Ghost will keep the warging theories alive for the foreseeable future, lol!
Hopefully he’s in Oathbreaker.
Khal-A-Bunga,
Leaf was also recast according to IMDB. This one I consider similar to Daario’s just in terms of how different the character looks and acts.
Oh, but Roose has a wicked sense of humour! Remember when Jaime was brought to him in Harrenhal and he told Jaime about the Battle of Blackwater. “… and your sister… How shall I put this… Your sister is alive and well.” And later, at dinner table “You’ve overplayed your… position.”
Last years Season 5/Episode 2 did a 6.81, so yeah this is a nice rating and with Jon’s rez, “Oathbreaker” should be even higher m
Tycho Nestoris,
I would hardly compare the 2.
One is a background character, while the other is quite a big secondary character.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I am so with you on that one….at times I felt like I had missed the nuances and honestly, on first watch, I didn’t hear Manderly mentioned at all, but caught it on the 2nd time through. It is a lot to process in less than one hour…second watch is almost required, at least for me…lol.
The gift isn’t Theon. That makes no sense. Ramsay calls somebody “little man” so it is probably Rickon. Recast too most likely because Art is anything but little anymore. Theon is going to
Mihnea,
I agree. I meant mostly for the appearance being so different between seasons.
Tycho Nestoris,
That is true. I thought you meant in importance not looks.
I’ve watched it twice! .. both times I thoroughly enjoyed it! I physically cheered the first time round, when Jon opened his eyes – it’s been a long time coming! Nobody really believed he was dead – not ‘permanently’ dead anyway! .. It was a fabulous moment! … I’m really looking forward to seeing Thorne’s face .. I hope Jon publically executes him, and the others involved, with the exception of Olly … I think Jon will forgive Olly – he’s just an impressionable (traumatized) kid, and easily manipulated by Thorne. The fact that he confided in Sam before Jon’s execution makes me think that he wasn’t really comfortable with his involvement in the mutinous killing of Jon.
I absolutely LOVED the WF flashback.
Young Ser Rodrick, already sporting his mutton chops, lol! Lyanna showing off on a horse. Referencing that Ned will soon go off to the Eyrie, maybe Benjen (yes, Benjen! Benjen! Can we have adult Benjen back, please!!!) could train with Wylis… Old Nan (bless her) is having none of that, she doesn’t want Wylis to learn to fight. Cue the scene in Craster’s in S4, Hodor never fights.
Afterwards, back in the cave, when Bran asks Hodor what happened so that he can’t talk anymore, and Hodor answers, “Hodor.” It was just so heart-breaking and sad. And yes, I want to know what happened!
Oh, and I loved that Ned to Benjen advice “Keep your shield up, otherwise I’m going to ring your head like a bell.” Exact same words Jon says to Olly in S5. So now we know where Jon got that from, from his father (krhm…).
Oh, happy times in Winterfell… And now we have Winterhell under the Boltons. Maybe Hot Pie was being prophetic, when he misspronounced the name of Arya’s home.
Clob,
A lot of people get together to view each episode. Is that factored in?
talvikorppi,
“You’ve overplayed your… position.”
Haha, that was a good one.
Jack Bauer 24,
As long as Ramsey does not kill off Shaggydog. I will start an Arya style hitlist with D&D and GRRM on it!
Nadia,
Well, I wrote this on reddit, so may as well post here about my take on why I personally enjoyed Ramsay’s scenes so much:
I think this is probably the first time where we see Ramsay shaken a bit. Sure, he did what was necessary, but it looked like he didn’t enjoy it, unlike how we have often seen him enjoy his psychopathic tendencies previously, like when he was chasing the girl with the dogs in Season 4.
When he stabs Roose, he hesitates, because he doesn’t want to kill Roose, but it is necessary. Later, he is shaking a bit when he is cleaning the knife, and it felt like he was legitimately moved by Roose saying to him that he would always be his firstborn (I also really liked this line by Roose – it kind of tied into Roose’s soft spot for Ramsay that we saw a bit of in Season 5 when he talked about Ramsay’s mother. IIRC, he said previously that he was too lenient on Ramsay, and, in typical GOT fashion, it proved to be his hamartia).
Even when he takes Walda and the baby to the hounds, he looks away, not even smiling a little. There is no sense of joy here, but actually a bit of regret from him.
I think it’s really interesting that these two scenes, where he dispatches off his family, are the only time where we see Ramsay not particularly enjoying himself. I think it adds a thin yet meaningful and intriguing layer to the character.
The criticisms of the show’s pacing have gone past the point of absurdity. Game of Thrones can’t fucking win on this front. They are eternally cursed to suffer the slings and arrows from both sides.
Granted, there are a lot of critics and viewers out there who are used to following a more linear story, and have never been all that enamored with the show’s often-diffuse style of storytelling. That’s a valid critique, and one that I can sympathize with because I tend to like episodes of the show that are more tightly focused on a few locations as well. But that’s the way that the show does its business, and it’s startling to see that some people still haven’t seemed to have adapted to it after six years.
Because the show has so many storylines to service, its early-season episodes are often tarred as being slow, table-setting pieces every single year. That’s true even when the episodes feature major developments, because not all those developments happen in every storyline during the same week. Those critiques remind me of those viewers who are watching the show only for the big moments, and as a result think that any episode that doesn’t feature enough prototypical game-changing moments is “slow”.
I’ve seen criticisms about Arya’s storyline along the lines of “she’s been getting hit in the face with a stick forever! When is she going to move on?” Seriously? She’s has two scenes in two episodes, each one about three minutes long. That isn’t much. I hope that attention spans haven’t frayed to such a degree that such brief interludes can’t be endured, if not enjoyed.
Yet there’s a philosophical divide over the pace, and it seems to be emerging along the same fault line that divides those who haven’t read the books from those who have. In stark contrast to the “it’s too slow” crowd, there’s a cadre of viewers out there – comprised mostly if not entirely of book readers – that thinks this season (and Season 5, in many respects) feels rushed. Not entirely surprising, considering that they’re used to GRRM’s … let’s just say languid storytelling pace, both within the realm of fiction and without.
Never mind that it’s taken Martin six years to write one book – an interval during which Benioff and Weiss have produced no less than fifty episodes of TV – and that a not-insignificant portion of that book will be devoted to characters traveling from one location to another. Even though we’re now mostly past the books, there’s this persistent idea that we’re blowing through story material WAY TOO FAST, because obviously D&D are tired and want to get to the end, their legacy be damned. That idea is silly and cynical, but whatever.
Those same Arya scenes that some people think are taking ‘forever’? I’ve now heard people complaining that Arya was allowed back into the House of Black and White after only two episodes. “It was too fast! George drew it out so much more believably in the book!” Across one chapter, where you can skip weeks of time through one line of someone’s internal monologue. But sure.
So for some, Game of Thrones is moving way too fast. For others, it’s moving too slow. For too few, it seems, is the pacing just right (I’d consider myself a member of the third camp). This is why Benioff and Weiss have a nigh-impossible task facing them when it comes to pleasing everyone, and why my respect for them increases exponentially every year they make the show.
I’m glad they’re no longer even pay lip service to that idea, because a show that chained its creative direction to the incoherent whims of the Internet would have been sunk a long time ago, not risen to become the world’s most popular show. Perhaps these gentlemen have some vague idea of what they’re doing.
And just to throw a curveball into the mix, a few of these recaps (like the io9 one) are lauding Game of Thrones for its pacing, saying that it feels cleaner and more efficient than ever before. Just goes to show you that something like this is impossible to make one-size-fits-all.
bristolcity,
Great observations!! Completely agree. There was no joy in Ramsey’s eyes, especially when he killed Roose. Hell he even looked a bit shaken, you could hear it in his voice.
I’m surprised at how many people seem to be gushing over the “wonderful, emotional scene” between Tommen and Cersei. I saw it totally differently.
Lena was excellent and Dean-Charles wasn’t too bad either, so in that way the scene was great. But I saw it as Cersei manipulating poor Tommen. Remember, Tyrion told us in S4 that Cersei excels in using honest emotions to do dishonest work. Cersei loves her children (though in a greedy, possessive way, IMO) and uses that for her own ends, which aren’t necessarily those of her children.
Wouldn’t it be more natural for a loving mother to rush to embrace her son after such a long time? But no, Cersei doesn’t even turn around when Tommen enters and calls her. Her eyes go up and to the side, she’s thinking. “How can I turn this to my advantage?”
She’s aloof, distant, ah, so sorrowful, the perfect victim, asking about Myrcella’s gown etc. She subtly makes Tommen apologise to her (well, Jaime already planted that idea in his head, damn you, Jaime!), she subtly makes Tommen come over to her side, apparently of his own will. Only then is there a motherly embrace… and a Cersei smirk on her face. She’s got him!
Seriously, did not anybody else see this? Or am I just too heavily biased agaist Cersei? For me, that scene was chilling.
Since apparently I haven’t written enough, there’s one more issue that’s been bugging me since Sunday.
As always, I welcome the chance to read intelligent and measured criticism about the show. But words can’t really adequately express how fed up I am with reviews and articles about Game of Thrones that devote most if not all of their word count towards bemoaning the show’s bleakness and cruelty, particularly as it relates to Ramsay. I like to think I’m a patient guy, but I’ve reached my breaking point with this particular issue. I ended up shouting into the void something along the lines of “Piss off. No one cares. Especially today.” Only the terms I used weren’t that restrained.
I was pretty euphoric about “Home” – I thought it was phenomenal all-around. But the only thing that dimmed my joy were a few all-too-predictable tweets from certain TV critics I follow (and now no longer do) who were angry about the scene with the dogs. Those early warning signs let me know we were in for a fresh round of tired thinkpieces about Ramsay’s sadistic exploits and how it reflects the show’s affinity for nihilism and shock value and problematic storylines and … I’m nodding off even as I type this because the list of descriptive modifiers is as predictable and dull as it is inaccurate.
As it happens, Game of Thrones has previously featured a scene where babies were massacred (“The North Remembers”) and where Ramsay set his dogs on a helpless woman (“The Lion and the Rose”). I remember being surprised how comparatively little outrage those scenes drew at the time. But of course, the show has now been on the air for six seasons, and we’re less than a year removed from the furor surrounding “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”. I’m not surprised that these things are now considered a bridge too far.
Last week, those thinkpieces were devoted to Dorne, but while I found them every bit as insufferable, I didn’t begrudge their existence because the Dorne storyline has actual execution-based flaws that can be separated from the show’s artistic intent (even if I think some of the complaints about the Dorne storyline has been over-the-top).
In contrast, the cruel nature of Ramsay’s character and the ever-looming possibility of death and suffering have been well-established by the show, and by the source material. They are features, not bugs. If people are still surprised by either one, they haven’t been paying attention. Most viewers seem to have accepted them, happily or grudgingly, as part of their contract with the show in exchange for all of the other wonderful things it gives us – moments of true beauty, humanity, and catharsis. It’s sad when those essential moments get overlooked or brushed off because people are rushing to find the negative.
One of the things that I’ve loved about Game of Thrones becoming a phenomenon is how it’s drawn in so many people who ordinarily wouldn’t follow this type of story. But that popularity is a double-edged sword. I’m sure that some objections are heartfelt – certain critics have articulated their issues with Ramsay’s cruelty well, even if I don’t believe it’s the massive flaw in the show they sometimes portray it as. But I know there are others that are nothing more than cynical outrage farming. There are a handful of reviewers at major outlets who I feel reasonably confident wouldn’t be writing weekly recaps for the show if their company wasn’t forcing them to do it for the page views. That’s the burden that comes with being the biggest show in the world. All publicity is good publicity … for someone at least.
Maybe some don’t believe cruelty can be depicted in art without invoking an inherent degree of endorsement or complicity. Or maybe they just have stomachs that are weaker than wet tissue paper, and this is all a bunch of sanctimonious noise. I no longer care. I used to try and force myself to read those pieces anyway so that I could be informed about the full spectrum of the conversation surrounding the show, but I think I just need to give up the ghost. I did the same thing last year, and it nearly drained all of the fun out of reading about the show (even though I loved Season 5 on its own merits).
I don’t want my experience of watching Game of Thrones – the best ten weeks of the year – to be sullied by wading through such muck in the name of completism. I’ll keep reading certain reviews from writers I trust – I thought that Sean T. Collins’s piece in Rolling Stone was excellent, for example (it helps that he’s a genuine fan of the books and the show). But others need to be purged from my roster. I think it’s for the best.
Jared,
Woah, you covered everything that I always get frustrated about when reading reviews from others. Great stuff!
slimchicken,
Human nature. We don’t know how to appreciate what we have whether it is up to our expectations or not…sad.
Jared,
Well said, Jared!
mau,
Can you guys grow up a bit and stop with your petty fighting? Its obvious you don’t like each other, fine. Disagree all you want about the show or ignore each other, but stop with the stupid insults. Takes away from the pleasure of reading the discussion here.
And don’t any of you involved say ‘he started it’
I now read “There were problems with the pacing in this episode” as “The character I hate hasn’t died yet/The character I love hasn’t succeeded yet.”
I LOVED Tyrion and the Dragons – when he was quickly scurrying away towards the stairs after releasing them – I was willing him to ‘Hurry Up!! – Hurry Up!!’ .. I love the Tyrion/Varys relationship .. but what of Littlefinger?
Ramsey Bolton is a pantomime villain type character – I think you’re meant to boo and hiss when he walks on screen. He’s won one battle against Stannis, and suddenly he thinks he’s Alexander the Great! He will most definitely come to a sorry end – probably involving dogs (Hopefully!)
Jack Bauer 24,
Unlikely, we already have…
1. Meereen
2. Vaes Dothrak
3. Braavos
4. KL
5. WF
6. Sam/Gilly
7. Wall
8. Bran
…confirmed for this episode. Surely there won’t be anymore in this one.
Dee,
I remember being moved to tears when I first heard it, and Im a non believer, so….
It will be interesting to see what happens when news of what actually happened to Shireen comes out, coz then I suspect we will see Davos in major conflict.
+1000
“Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Let the man be born”. George killed him off too, so the reason has yet to be revealed I guess. Overall, we are spoiled….lol.
Lisse,
ghost of winterfell,
Preach. I did a double-take when I saw Joanna Robinson’s article. I honestly thought I was being punked.
I’ve respected Robinson’s work for the most part, both in her writing for Vanity Fair and on her podcasts. But this is the same writer who spent 10 solid months writing articles about nothing more the flimsiest scraps of news pertaining Kit Harington being sighted in Belfast. She’s provided more coverage than any sane human being needed about the length of his hair. Too suddenly turn and bite the hand that fed her now is, too put it mildly, a bit rich. I’m not surprised that she thinks Jon coming back is predictable. Everyone … and I do mean everyone … has been predicting it for years. It’s not an original take. But that doesn’t mean that Game of Thrones has taken an unfortunate turn into the conventional. This is the story.
The idea that Game of Thrones (and ASOIAF) need to constantly be subverting so-called tropes or they’re doomed to become something lesser is nonsense. Subverting tropes isn’t inherently good storytelling, and being “unpredictable” is a grotesquely overrated quality, in my opinion. Some so-called tropes of fantasy and storytelling in general have become tropes for one shockingly simple reason: they work. Human beings have been telling variations on the same stories for generations. The idea that we’re ever going to see a work of fiction where every beat is original and unconventional is foolish.
It would be “unpredictable” for an army of mermaids to suddenly rise up out of the Narrow Sea and kill everyone in the world except Varys (who is secretly their leader … no wait. This an actual ASOIAF fan theory. Forget it). But it would also be stupid as hell. Jon’s resurrection ties in perfectly with the well-established rules of the world, and the foreshadowing was laid in both the show and the novels for years. To throw all that aside because the Internet had five years to deliberate about this particular mystery and pieced it together long ago … all for the sake of being unconventional? That would be asinine beyond words.
talvikorppi,
Yes, exactly, which is why I thought it beautifully done.
I’d love to know what words Mel was saying (not because I want to do a rez or anything, just curious. Tho given what Thoros said about not knowing the words, i guess it really doesn’t matter)
When I say ‘details’ I guess I mean the amount of violence and death and how often those incidents are pointed out within the narrative — GoT is often criticised even by book readers and reviewers for ‘adding rape’ and things like that, but they’ve actually cut down massively on the atrocities that are in ASOIAF. It’s like the blame shifted from GRRM (his books have met every single criticism -shock value, violence, etc- lobbed at the show a thousand times over) right onto D&D.
talvikorppi,
Been meaning to ask, isn’t there an older brother, older than Ned Brandon, I think? Why isn’t he there?
One more, then I swear to God I’m done, because this isn’t healthy.
I’m less annoyed about those who are stating that Jon Snow’s resurrection was anticlimactic, because at least I understand the angle that they’re taking. That’s a criticism that Game of Thrones exposed itself to when it depicted Jon’s assassination in the Season 5 finale. They spent the intervening ten months proclaiming that Jon was dead (which was true) and that Kit Harington wasn’t coming back as anything but a corpse (which was an obvious lie).
They didn’t need to do that. They could have been more ambiguous, or remained silent. Unfortunately, they’re making the world’s most popular television show in 2016. People were going to ask them questions, and they needed a message. Whether or not it was the right call to make that message so definitive is worthy of debate. Probably not. But that’s extra-textual stuff. I’m not holding that against the actual story the show is telling in any way.
Perhaps if George R.R. Martin hadn’t ended Jon’s story in ADWD on that cliffhanger, and Benioff and Weiss hadn’t wanted to give Martin one last chance to finish TWOW before Season 6, they wouldn’t have ended Season 5 on Jon’s assassination. Perhaps they would have moved “For the Watch” back into Season 6 and dealt with it in weeks, not months. But Martin did end his book that way, and Benioff and Weiss made their decision. Perhaps it wasn’t ideal, but it certainly didn’t hurt the show with general audiences. They were at a fever pitch on Sunday.
As for the method of Jon’s resurrection, it was abundantly foreshadowed in both the show and the books, and the Internet figured out the most logical outcome. Following through on that doesn’t make it predictable or tired, particularly when the resurrection scene was as well-staged and well-directed as it was. The alternatives were to find an unexpected method of resurrecting him (Bran?), drag it out further and make it appear like Jon really was gone forever (thus risking a Walking Dead situation), or not bring Jon back at all (which would have crippled the story). None of those were ideal options.
But Jon Snow is back now, and what he does now that he’s returned to the land of the living will ultimately determine how his resurrection is perceived. That may be the one frequently-cited argument that’s been making the rounds since Sunday that I actually agree with.
Jared,
I also think the simple was he was brought back was pretty unconventional.
My big ? was if they were all barricaded in that room, fearing for their lives, how was Edd just able to walk out and leave to get the wildlings? He likely would have been killed as soon as he left the room. But, I am not going to quibble with the little details like that – it’s the bigger story I care about and they’re bound to make little errors like that .They really need to hire one of us as a script supervisor though!
Also, has GRRM made any comments about this season so far? I checked the ol’ Not a Blog and nothing. I would LOVE to hear his take but I doubt we will get it.
Valaquen,
I see what you mean, but I think even some diehard book readers seem to be prepared to overlook this to justify their dissatisfaction with certain storylines ( I’m sure you know which without me telling!),
Jared,
Well yeah I said I was disappointed in another topic but it’s been a bit misinterpreted when it comes to the word “predictable”. Of course things were foreshadowed thoroughly but I think we may/will find out next week that things may not all be peachy. The story having gone this way ( and very well done in that scene, even if I hoped for something other) will not be exactly as it happens in the book – the gist of it sure but perhaps played out in a different way (Davos isn’t there for a start). All I can say is that I hope Jon really is radically different now, this proves to still have a little unexpected outcome and this isn’t just an escape route from the NW vow.
It may be I prefer it in the book or the show, time will tell when GRRM finally gets that damn book out!
Jared,
Totally well said! Here’s to you, Jared!
What the fuck is a Lommy?,
Agree. But that’s probably the last we’ll see of that actress. At the ToJ it will be another, aged-up actress I bet. (Someone with more in-depth info as to casting may be able to verify.)
Jared,
Yes, exactly. Which is why I avoid most reviews. I generally like AV and Rollingstone and EW. Others I usually pass by.
I was not happy with how Walda died – but then I have learned that in this show, these things happen on such an alarming regularity that if I was bothered by it I wouldn’t be watching (I have several friends who don’t watch it for that reason and I respect that). There is so much I love about the story that I choose not to be concerned about it. And as I am an adult and understand the difference between a fantasy story and events in the real world, it does not make me numb to events outside of the world. I can view the show/books as entertainment, that is all
Jaime’s scene, first with Tommen, then with High Sparrow. I’m very two minds about that. Well, it was basically two different scenes. 😀
OK, the scene with Tommen. Tommen suspects Cersei for the murder of Trystane. Jaime goes, “Your mother wouldn’t do that.” I was silently screaming at my screen at this point. Wake up, Jaime! She totally would! Thank the gods, even Tommen was with me: “Yes, she would.”
And what does Jaime do? Tells Tommen to go and see his mother, and apologise! Oh, Jaime, you’ve had your brain scrambled because of your misplaced love for Cersei. *head-meets-desk-moment*.
AND, wasn’t Jaime so concerned for Trystane’s safety in KL and within Cersei’s reach, only last episode, that he kept Trystane off-shore? That was the explanation offered for the Dornish mess last week. With the prop letter and everything. OMG, Jaime is being dragged down into the Dornish mess as well, help!
Jaime and the High Sparrow, on the other hand. Brilliant. How it shifts back and forth. Forevermore I’ll hear Jaime’s measured steps and the menacing clink of his armour as the soundtrack to this scene. Jaime’s not taking any of the HS’s BS and hypocricy. Jaime’s no hypocrite, he confesses his sins right then and there – though notably not all of them, so he isn’t being all that honest and righteous… perhaps a bit hypocritical..?
The High Sparrow being, ah, all so humble and godly and fearful… until his goons step out of the shadows. Jonathan Pryce is so excellent. That subtle glee and triumph he portrays. The HS is not a humble servant of the gods, he’s as power-hungry as the rest of them. He could play the likes of Cersei but as we leave the scene, Jaime is having a rethink. “Ah, so he’s not just some religious nutter. He’s a general. I’ve got to rethink my approach.” Jaime isn’t as bright as Tyrion but he’s no fool, he’s now had his first look at the HS for himself to inform his future decisions. He’s not going off by just Cersei’s reports now. (Cersei never sees the bigger picture, only herself.)
Interesting to see how this plays out. And, please, please, please, I need to see Jaime detach himself from Cersei!
FWIW. Ozzy mans review is the only one that really matters!
talvikorppi,
Regarding what Jaime said to Tommen, I think he was lying to him. What else would a dad say to his 16 year old son? Nikolai, I think, even conveys the lie subtly with his facial expression. Look at Nikolai’s face when Tommen says “yes she would”, it’s kind of like, fuck he knows must change subject. It was similar to when Tyrion asked Jaime if he could fetch Bronn for him so he could ask him to be his champion. Nikolai made a face like “OK” but it was such a great face because it conveyed that in reality he knew Bronn had been bought by Cersei and wouldn’t do it. Nikolai is such an amazing actor, wish he could’ve at least gotten nominated for an Emmy in season 3.
Haha, I don’t know how English speakers would spell the words, this is what I caught (a mixture of how they’d be spelled in my language (phonetic) and how it might be spelled in English. My Valyrian/Asshai spelling isn’t up to scratch.)
Hen zen doro onyos, hen khi persis, hen morghot gleison.
I saw a translation on the interwebs (so totally unofficial and unreliable): From darkness to light, from ash to fire, from death to life.
—
Edited for spelling (English). lol.
And to add something else to Rebirth! Jon.
As we know Beric lost a little of himself with each revival but these appear to have happened very quickly each time after his death, so the change to the last reincarnation was still recognisably a living, thinking human even if has has maybe lost some of his soul.
Now with Catelyn there was a certainly some passage of time before her revival and we can definitely say that LSH was not Catelyn – only the dark side of the self seem to remain.
FrankenGregor is a different case entirely, brought back by necromancy as a physical but completely soulless being ( not that he had much a soul before). This is not what I expect for Jon at all.
I kind of expect some correlation somewhere in the scale between Beric and LSH.
I’m really not keen on the rebirth/resurrection thing (once dead, stay dead IMO) but it’s GRRMs universe and we have to accept it’s his house, his rules. And it’s his rule that says no-one comes back the same – that’s the price.
Pau,
LOL
One angle I really liked in this episode that I don’t see discussed that much is the growth of Tommen. I kind of just assumed his timidness / weakness were traits of his personality and that he was hopeless as a king, but in actuality they might only be traits of his youthfulness. After this episode I could see Tommen having a chance to grow into a good King. Of course, that assumes he lives which I’m sure he won’t.
Yes, Brandon was the oldest son and heir. He’s been mentioned in the show, e.g. Jaime telling Ned how he died (Jaime was there) in S1.
As to why Brandon (“our” Bran’s uncle) wasn’t there. Maybe he just didn’t want to sparr with the kid brothers? Or, maybe he was away (book spoiler)
ash,
Never mind, just saw it on another post (mods are mind readers. It is known)
talvikorppi,
And without any guard?
Ah, thanks! I’ve only seen the episode twice so probably didn’t catch everything, with a whole lotta going on. I’ll need to go and rewatch now.
I agree with the Jaime/Tyrion scene and Bronn, and that Nikolaj is amazing. Not just eye-candy for us who feel Kit is a bit too young for us (oops, did I just reveal too much about myself?)
Still, Jaime’s lie (if it was such). It might tie in well with his “peace-keeping” mode but… why tell Tommen to apologise to Cersei? That’s still scrambled brain Jaime, too in thrall to Cersei.
I await your explanation of this one too, so I can feel good about Jaime again. lol.
Well, he was on a Dornish ship, so he’d have had Dornish guards about him. Or do you mean Lannisters guarding the ship, preventing the ship (and Trystane) from leaving?
Hate to go back to last weeks’s episode, but the fact that it was a Dornish ship also easily explains how the Sand Snakes got on it. They didn’t sneak in. They show up, all the Dornish would’ve known who they are, Prince Doran’s nieces, Prince Trystane’s cousins. “We have an urgent message to Prince Trystane from his father”, job done. (They might have to sneak out, though.)
talvikorppi,
He told her to apologize to Cersei for not going to see her since she’d been back after the walk of shame.
Pau,
Dolorous Methuselah,
I wrote a similar thing in the sullied recap thread yesterday(after reading like a thousand “yay, no eye-patch!” comments), so I’m relieved that I’m not the only one bummed by this “attack the books to defend the show” stuff.
But I agree with Dolorous Methuselah on this and from now I’ll just skip some folks’ comments. It’s a useless fight anyway. It’s a pity, though, because some of them really bring some good thoughts when stick to the thread’s subject.
Oh, right… What I got on my first watch was he was telling poor Tommen to also apologise for not “defending” her, for not being more forceful and decisive. That’s also what I got on my second watch, actually even reinforced after seeing the Tommen/Cersei scene and the manipulation by Cersei.
Maybe my dark anti-Cersei goggles are distorting my vision, even overriding my Jaime pink goggles. ;-D
The Winterhell scenes… There were a couple of interesting things.
The Karstarks (or at least this new Lord Karstark) really hate the Starks for Robb executing Lord Karstark. He’s full on with the Boltons. Even with the Jr. He didn’t bat an eyelid when Ramsay did what he did. (Maybe they even had a previous understanding?)
Now, this I find interesting. Ramsay suggests attacking Castle Black and killing Jon Snow (who, ironically, is DEAD at this point, lol). Roose. “Murder the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch? You’d unite every house in the North agaist us!” This tells us that most northerners apparently still think the NW as a big thing, honourable, respect the NW LC etc. Roose certainly thinks so, and he’s not stupid (except when it comes to Ramsay). How will the Northern lords feel about Alliser Thorne &co. who murdered the LC of the NW? And (F)LC Jon Snow who let the wildlings in? (Not to mention that he might be a weird ressurrected miracle.)
Now, I might be stretching this a bit, but… Boltons under Ramsay, Karstarks (personal vendetta against Starks), Umbers (for bringing wildlings right next door! Personal hatred of wildlings) might be fully onboard, but the name-checked Manderlys? If Ramsay doesn’t get the Manderlys, and I expext he doesn’t (book knowledge)… Well, the Bolton dominance of the North isn’t a foregone conclusion. The Boltons’ hold is tenuous at best, and Ramsay isn’t the one to deal with tricky political situations. Roose knew how to manouvre, Ramsay doesn’t. The days of the Boltons are numbered. Hooray!
Still, sad it has to come at the expence of lovely, oblivious Fat Walda and her newborn baby. When Ramsay asked to hold the baby, I was screaming at my screen. Nooo! Don’t do it, Walda! OK, the baby survived… wait, what? They’re going to the kennels now? Run, Walda! Run!
I’ve seen a lot of criticism of how stupid and gullible Fat Walda was, to follow Ramsay into the kennels. Remember, this is a young woman from a home where her father’s (Walder Frey’s) word was law. Everybody obeyed daddy. The adult big brothers, certainly the daughters. Of course Walda obeyed. She thought she was summoned to her husband Lord Bolton, not his son Lord Bolton.
Now, this is totally horrible of me, but… Myranda was so skinny, those dogs would’ve been left hungry last week. Walda and baby at least gave them good din-dins.
Pounce,
Aw, yes…the ratings for this episode are down as well…is there anybody in the site that makes analysis of the ratings? I´d like to hear what they have to say about them
HotPinkLipstick,
FINALLY!!! Someone that speaks the truth! I have always thought those words are UNPRONOUNCEABLE in a living world,fantasy or not…
iridium,
Thanks for posting. As Oz says… no pressure Jonno!
Since I don’t see it on the list, I’ll add Cracked’s weekly recap, “Winter Is Taking Forever,” which made me chuckle several times:
http://www.cracked.com/video_19990_the-got-twist-we-all-wanted-and-were-still-mad-about.html
now I have seen many people complaining about the resurrection, that it was forseeable and not spectacular enough. They shouldnt have melisandre coming back at the end of season 5, everyone was guessing that she would probably bring him back, they could have least been a little bit more creative and do something different.
Already seen many people who think he should have been revived at a funeral pyre, but wouldnt have been this kind of predictable too? I think like almost any way he would have come back some people would have felt a dissapointment, you really cannot please every fan.
More of young Hodor! Hopefully we will find out how he became Hodor next week!
Which is one of the reasons I was so annoyed, as many others were, by the waste of dialog on Tyrion’s stupid comments to Varys about Varys’ physical condition TWO episodes in a row. It’s almost like he’s baiting Varys. Didn’t like it, especially when Dinklage is so great at delivering zingo lines that actually give insight into the situation. These lines didn’t, they weren’t anything but annoying. Well delivered, but annoying. Why waste screen time on demeaning insults of those around you? Especially those you need to depend on?
Is Tyrion starting to go crazy? Uh OH. Like craziness in the blood kind of crazy? That comment to Varys “But you were THINKING it.” That’s paranoid. That’s mad, reminiscent of a paranoid mad king … oh shit …
Well, the last two lines of the dialogue at least are in the trailer for next week.
I think it may be possible that D&D and the creative team for the upcoming episode just might have a slightly different take on whether they can make that dialogue work on the screen than you do. And because parts of it touch on existing characters I would venture that they incorporate at least some if not all of it.
Re my last post regarding Tyrion: maybe D&D really don’t waste lines. Here I was thinking they were just giving Dinklage something to do. But consider this –
mau,
BEST of the day. Nice
Not only deadpan, as in not objecting in any way to Ramsay knifing Roose, but then, to show that he is in total agreement with the action and not just gobsmacked or frightened, he admonishes the Maester to respect Ramsay.
Yes, and I liked the camera work in his murder of his father, mirroring Roose’s own murder of Robb. Good job there. Agreed on Ramsay being set up to be killed this season – Roose’s words about his reputation had the ring of prophecy. The gun has now been hung. Who will fire it?
I have no idea, but judging how he freaks out during storms, I suspect whatever happened to him occurred during one.
Or it was just insightful. Varys has a very quick mind, after all, and he frequently seems to be chuckling (or giggling in the books) at private jokes that he does not share.
Regardless, Tyrion is a talker. And when talkers get uncomfortable, they go from talkers to blatherers. Tyrion is anything but comfortable these days.
“Villains” rarely are interesting unless you find the study of deranged people interesting. And those people that do study deranged people typically focus more on the “how/why” of it rather than the “what” of it.
That written, Ramsay and other “villains” on this show are not stereotypical by any means for epic fantasy. Usually, fantasy villains are “evil” and revel in being evil: they even call themselves evil. Tywin Lannister would never have called himself evil: quite the opposite, he extolled his deeds as those that good men do. Roose Bolton would never have called himself evil: he, too, was following a similar moral creed. Ramsay would never call himself evil: he is a psychopath and psychopaths usually lack any sense of “good” or “evil.” And when people do deeds that they subconsciously know are wrong (e.g., Walder Frey), then they bend over backwards to justify it: just like real people do.
What they are like are antagonists or criminals from other TV shows. But that has a lot to do with Thrones appeal: the “bad guys” could be set in modern crime stories involving murders to stock market fraud to fixing elections to religious zealotry and still retain their basic characters.
Thronetender,
You’re right about the silly jokes but the thing I was thinking of was wasted dialogue that states or re-states the obvious: what someone is thinking or feeling or doing. (Jorah and Daario’s exchange last week made me groan … Jorah loves Dany and it’s really frustrating when someone doesn’t love you back. Well, duh. Looking at Iain Glen’s face tells us that). Hopefully, now that we’ve settled in, we’ll get less of that exposition.
Thronetender,
I agree, I don’t get why they have him being such a dick to Varys. And I’m still trying to wrap my head around the line in episode 1: “thankfully you’re not a boy, because you have no cock”.
The punch in the face line was so stupid too. I didn’t like Bryan Cogman’s “long sullen silences, followed by a punch in the face” either last season. The phrase “punch in the face”, while I know it could’ve been used in any time period, it seems more like a contemporary thing. Tyrion’s conversation with the dragons was good though.
Lord Parramandas,
You may be on to something, re: resolution. I first read the books 15 years ago, and the books have barely moved forward since then. So I’ve spent 15 years waiting for resolution…
…and now that resolution is happening, after waiting so long, I think it does feel slightly anti-climactic to me.
And some of the resolution just feels “wrong”. For example, I’m so used to Stannis being alive in the books, that I still can’t get used to him being dead!
Anyway, I’m going to re-watch Episode 602 tonight. Hopefully I’ll enjoy it a little more this time around.
Well, he was dead at the end of last book in at least one character’s plotline.
As for the resolution feeling “wrong,” how so? Jon’s revival was well-set up: GRRM (and B&W) hung the gun on the wall early and fired it late. Bolton’s death should not have been too surprising: indeed, a lot of people thought that the Salmon Note was evidence that Roose was dead already.
I really hope it’s more than that. I feel like we’ve gotten to a point in the story where oaths and lineage and Iron Thrones and all that have become meaningless. It’s kind of why I don’t care who Jon Snow’s parents are. Sure, it’ll be cool to know, and it could have some minor bearing on things, but what does it really matter when there’s a giant zombie hoard led by the Four Horsemen approaching?
True, true. People have been considering this for years, so there’s few ways in which it could have been different or unexpected or spectacular. I think it was handled fine.
But, thinking about it, I wonder if they couldn’t have built on last week and have had Melisandre perform the ritual in her true form. Defeated, no reason for facade. It’s still Melisandre that revives him, but it’s the real Melisandre, broken and true. Oh, and for a chuckle, just before she removes the necklace, she turns to Davos and says, “Apologies for what you’re about to see…”
It will matter because Jon’s final choices at the xenith of the tale will probably be heavily influenced by what he realizes that Ned did to protect one infant boy. This should have a big impact on the story itself, and not just serve as some plot point like getting him out of being Lord Commander.
Wimsey,
Here’s hoping!
slimchicken,
GRRM cites Faulkner a lot when he (GRRM) talks about the theory of storytelling. My conjecture probably is wrong in the specifics: but it should be something Faulkneresque like that.
Well, he has 47 years to figure out the details, I guess 😉
I believe the pacing will fall more in line with what most viewers have come to expect with GoT after episode 2. They had a lot of table setting to do, and I personally believe it was well done. Similiar to season 4 episode 2 (Purple Wedding) I thought doing the reveal now was an excellent decision. They have everything in place now for some excellent storytelling episodes 3-7 (surely some big moments along the way, but not rapid fire) which will culminate into a brain melting 8-10. I can’t wait.
Now that SkyOnline finally doesn’t break down everyte me someone tries to access GoT I managed to watch Home (once or twice or more) beyond being one of the best eps so far two things jumped at me
Parallel between the way Asha/Yara entered Winterfell and tries to intimidate Theon and Lya showing off to her brothers
Then The Storm. Damn how often do I have to watch it that Pilou’s voice won’t send shivers down my back? Wonderful casting there. And the parallel to Odyseus being tied to the mast so that he won’t fall to the sirens. Also him breathing hard after murdering Balon. I don think it was panic I think it was simply the exertion of throwing a heavy man over a rail. And he manically smiles when he realizes that Balon managed to wound him. Oh the madness in his eyes at that moment. Looking forward to seeing more Euron
The Ramsey killing his father and taking the power makes no sense. He cannot became a ruler without the approval of the lords.
White Walkers,
Of course he can. He is his father’s oldest legitimate son and his heir. No approval needed. Simply the feudal line of sucession
White Walkers,
Makes total sense. He’s a psycho and would do anything to secure his plans.
How do you know if they do not approve him already? Lord Karstark was there and supported Ramsay, and the Umbers are likely to do the same. Plus, he doesn’t need their approval at all, since the Crown named the Boltons as Wardens of the North.
However, there’s a probability of treason from the Umbers and Manderlys.
As for Ramsay, D&D did a much better job than GRRM on writing him.
Book Ramsay is close to sick pornography! The “Fake Arya bedding scene” is disgusting on so many levels that no one would ever dare do put it on TV, even though the show version of it was pretty strong for the weak of heart.
I do not know if Book!Ramsay is worse per-se, but he’s a different sort of psycho. Book!Ramsay is a brutal thug: you practically expect him to be called Guido. He is much less able to hide his viciousness than is Show!Ramsay, who is more the “I can disguise myself” psycho. I think that both are OK in their respective mediums.
Pedro,
Completely agree!!