Game of Thrones Post-Mortem of “The Bells”

Cersei Jaime Lannister The BellsThe penultimate episode of Game of Thrones featured betrayal, triumph, and tragedy. In “The Bells,” we saw a grieving and despondent Daenerys finally win her victory over Queen Cersei – only to have it turn to literal ashes. Many characters were taken from us, while others were traumatized by the unleashing of “fire and blood.” Where does the story go from here? We have one more Sunday to find out. In the meantime, let’s break down this episode like Drogon broke down the Red Keep with today’s interviews and videos!

Cersei Lannister met her end last night, and Lena Headey reveals to Entertainment Weekly that “it’s maybe the first time that Cersei has been at peace.” She starts off the season “desperately unhappy and everything that’s happened becomes more real than it ever has for her. She starts to lose control of the situation. She’s destroyed every good alliance, connection, love in her life — she was always destined to be alone. And until the very, very last minute, she is, as ever, in denial of what’s actually happening.”

However, as death comes for her, Jaime appears to comfort her in her final moments. “I think the biggest surprise is he came back for her. Cersei realizes just how she loves him and just how much he loves her. It’s the most authentic connection she’s ever had. Ultimately they belong together.” Headey adds, “I told Nikolaj [Coster-Waldau], ‘I’ve never seen you so sweet and sentimental.’ And he’s all, ‘What’s happening to me?’ We kept cuddling going ‘I love you.’ It was weird. There’s a sense of loss that nothing like this will ever happen again. There was a great sense of grief and an enormous amount of gratitude going on.”

For more of Headey’s reflections on her time with Game of Thrones, check out the article here.

Varys death The Bells

EW brings us an interview with Conleth Hill as well, whose character, Varys, was executed for treason. Hill had mixed feelings about his death, saying, “I took it very personally. I took it as a person, not as an actor or an artist. I understood the reactions of previous actors who had been in the same position a lot more than I did at the time. You can’t help feeling that you failed in some way, that you haven’t lived up to some expectation that you didn’t know about.”

He may not have been happy about the consequence, but Hill believes Varys’ actions were noble. “He was absolutely true to his word the whole way through. All he wanted was the right person on the throne and a fair person on the throne. He said it so many times in the scripts. I don’t have the distraction of love or desire or any of those things. And the people he needed to see clearly were both in love. So that makes perfect sense.”

Varys will be missing from the finale, but Hill knows what’s coming and isn’t sure how fans will take it. “I have no idea. I don’t know how I feel. I can’t anticipate it until it happens. I don’t think they’ll feel cheated. The fan favorites are all there.” Maybe so, but that doesn’t mean they will survive to the final credits!

Read the full interview at EW.

Sandor Clegane the Hound The Bells

In our final interview, also from EW, Rory McCann expresses his satisfaction for how Sandor Clegane goes out. “I’m very happy with the way The Hound’s story ends, thank you very much. I love all the endings. I don’t know how they managed to sew it all together. I don’t know how it goes with George R.R. Martin’s ending, if it’s the same or no.”

During the table read, McCann remarks that “it was quite funny when the so-called Cleganebowl started. I secretly brought a trumpet with me. [Co-executive producer Bryan Cogman] is reading [the stage directions] and I’m like, ‘Can you pause right before I say one of my last lines?’ He did and I brought out this trumpet and [blew it]. I got butterflies in my stomach over that fight.” If only he had brought an airhorn…

McCann feels “absolutely delighted” with the conclusion to his arc, saying, “I’m blessed to be given this storyline…Maybe he could have found peace and wandered off. But this is a fine way to go. It seems pretty beautiful to me. How lucky to be an actor who ends up on one of the biggest and best shows in the world. I see panic in some [fellow castmates] eyes: ‘What are we going to do now?’ Relax. Don’t worry. We’re on the map now.” They certainly are.

The entire article is worth a read, so be sure to head over to EW for the rest.


In this week’s “Inside the Episode,” David Benioff and Dan Weiss break down the sequence of events that led to the destruction of King’s Landing.

The next two videos are from HBO’s website and are only available in the United States. Emilia ClarkeKit Harington, Peter Dinklage, and Jacob Anderson examine why Daenerys makes a tragic decision in “The Mad Queen.”

In “The Hound’s Gift,” Maisie Williams discusses Arya’s relationship with Sandor, and why she chose to not to pursue revenge.

 In “The Game Revealed,” cast and crew give us a look at recreating the King’s Landing set for a dragon attack.

In case you missed it, here is the preview for the series finale – the end is finally at hand.

HBO offered up a preview today of The Last Watch, a two-hour documentary which premieres on May 26th on HBO. Director Jeanie Finlay has created “a farewell to Westeros with the people who built the realm,” according to HBO.

208 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. It’s the next day and I’m still processing feelings about last night’s episode.

      I saw most of it coming even though some parts were different than I had imagined. Also, I didn’t expect to feel kind of bad for some characters, even though as it was happening, I thought it was what they deserved and what was coming to them, like Cersei and Dany specifically. Especially for Dany whose story is ending up to be a tragedy.

      Cersei deserved her death, but I kinda felt bad that at the end she seemed to realize all of her mistakes coming over her like a wave.

      All in all, I thought it was a brilliant episode. and now I’m getting sadder next week is the last episode. EVER. Sigh

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    2. Looking at the Last Watch trailer, two things are puzzling:

      If that was Emilia Clark’s last shot for Game of Thrones, why is she in her winter coat, and is she on sand or snow? It could be that they didn’t shoot in chronological order, but I didn’t remember a scene with a little hill and those banners,

      And who is the wrinkly Ted Danson lookalike in the rusty helmet getting make-up done?

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    3. Cersei had a very dignified death. And I’m glad she didn’t die alone, and that she still had people who loved her despite her faults.

      My queen <3

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    4. Like with almost all the episodes this season, it feels better the next day. Yes, I still wish they’d taken more time to flesh out this possibility, but in the end, it’s still a gripping season, and incredible spectacle of an episode, and it really moved me in many different ways.

      I also wish Cersei had died by her brother’s hand, but oh well. LOL

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    5. The Last Watch looks beautiful. No matter my thoughts on this season’s writing and pacing, the GoT universe has been the source of so much joy and delight and it’ll be very, very sad to say goodbye.

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    6. Rory is a fucking legend. It’s nice to see him feel so good about his ending and be so appreciative of the show.

      1 more week and it’s over. I’m thankful to have experienced being a part of this fandom, and particularly the community created on WIC/WOTW. It’s been a roller coaster ride, but I don’t regret being a fan of the series, no matter how it ends.

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    7. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Here here. It’s been a great ride. I think that, even if I’m unhappy with how it ends for Jon or who sits on the throne, I don’t regret a moment of my time spent watching the show, reading the books, deep diving into theories and just all the things that made GoT such an amazing experience.

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    8. I just got hit by a theorie that the longer I think of it, the more I believe it will happen. I think Dany is gonna die by crossbow. That would be sooooo Got. Politics (greed) all the way.

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    9. Jenny:
      Shouldn’t Nikolaj have an interview?

      Nikolaj has been relentless cheerful in all interviews about Season 8. Sounded more excited than the others! You would think his character lived! In the past, he always expressed frustration with the story that Jaime stayed with Cersei so long. I think when he signed up he thought he would leave Cersei early as Jaime did in the books. His lack of an interview is interesting so far. Maybe later in the week. Perhaps working on another set.

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    10. Mango,

      His excitement gave me hope, I really want to know why he thought it was so great when he wanted to leave Cersei years ago. I know he doesn’t like Dany so maybe that’s it?

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    11. To me the biggest flaw of both “The Long Night” and “The Bells” was that they were high on carnage but low on drama and dialogue. Lots of hacking and slashing and fire but that can get boring if there is not good drama to go along with it. The best scene was with Jaime and Tyrion. It would have been nice to have more powerful character moments like that in the finale season.

      One other main thing this finale season has been missing is the loss of fantasy and mysticism after episode 3 (besides the dragons). Even if the WWs and Night King had to be defeated in episode 3 that doesn’t mean they should just be completely forgotten about. White Walkers were defeated before yet they came back, will they come back again or are they defeated for good? They could have used Bran to deal with these questions and kept some of the mystery surrounding beyond the Wall and the WWs into these last episodes. Maybe they will deal with this in the finale but I doubt it…

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    12. Loved tonights episode no matter what people say. Next week will be the end of an era and I for one intend to wear my Stargaryen tshirt and raise a glass to the new King/Queen of the 7 kingdoms and to say goodbye to the best television programme it has ever been my privilege to watch. 😭🔥🐺👑

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    13. Jenny:
      Mango,

      His excitement gave me hope, I really want to know why he thought it was so great when he wanted to leave Cersei years ago.I know he doesn’t like Dany so maybe that’s it?

      Dunno. Yes, he always spoke about weapons of mass destruction and that she was not a good thing.

      I cannot figure it beyond that.

      Either he figured out (or his new agent told him) that complaining about your role does not help up at Emmy time. It was about then he got positive.

      Or he really really loved the dramatic work and story.

      My tinfoil is that once he saw the Jaime of S8. He decided to be fully professional, play the game and not give D&D any satisfaction of seeing him appear distressed. (D&D seem to have a reputation of messing with you in their scripts. I heard! Do not know if true )

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    14. Jenny,

      Yeah, gave me hope too although I know not to follow actor hype.

      He was so happy I thought he might even get the throne! As unlikely as it would be.

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    15. Flayed Potatoes:
      Cersei had a very dignified death. And I’m glad she didn’t die alone, and that she still had people who loved her despite her faults.

      My queen <3

      Right! I think that was rather honest… even horrible people have people they love and care about and who love and care about them, despite who they are, or because they are different with them. So many people complaining that she deserved worse, or to beg for her life, but I like this more – there are times in the show that we root for Cersei, we understand her, even though she continues to f**kup as the story continues, we are like Jamie… we love her, then we hate her, then she wins us back again, lol Cersei and Jamie are great, complex characters and Lena and Nikolaj played their relationship to perfection!

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    16. Mango: Dunno. Yes, he always spoke about weapons of mass destruction and that she was not a good thing.

      I cannot figure it beyond that.

      Either he figured out (or his new agent told him) that complaining about your role does not help up at Emmy time. It was about then he got positive.

      Or he really really loved the dramatic work and story.

      My tinfoil is that once he saw theJaime of S8. He decided to be fully professional, play the game and not give D&D any satisfaction of seeing him appear distressed. (D&D seem to have a reputation of messing with you in their scripts. I heard! Do not know if true )

      Nikolaj would have my vote, he has the best supporting actor journey this season, Peter has what, 4-5? Let Nikolaj have this one academy (is it called academy? lol )!

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    17. viki: Right! I think that was rather honest… even horrible people have people they love and care about and who love and care about them, despite who they are, or because they are different with them.So many people complaining that she deserved worse, or to beg for her life, but I like this more – there are times in the show that we root for Cersei, we understand her, even though she continues to f**kup as the story continues, we are like Jamie… we love her, then we hate her, then she wins us back again, lol Cersei and Jamie are great, complex characters and Lena and Nikolaj played their relationship to perfection!

      As for Cersei, I was surprised that she did not have an exit path out of the Red Keep planned and ready. That is a basic thing for escape for rulers. This is just incompetent.

      I would have like her death to be one of defiance, where she also possibly did something to save her brothers or others

      Or, that she would go the way she planned at the Blackwater.

      Instead, she started to panic and simper. It Jaime (who you called weak!) that never lost his composure even in face of death. That takes nerves of steel.

      Cersei made some awful errors – Tywin was right, she is not that clever. Qyburn was her hand!!!

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    18. Mango,

      NCW was an amazing Jaime, but he kind of got the shaft after his time with Brienne due to the removal of the big Riverlands story lines, so he had to stay with Cersei despite her doing things the character would no longer be okay with. It ended up with him in Dorne, him standing by her when she blew up Sept. Him not learning about Lancel. Lots of things.

      Then he gets this one season, just one season with 6 episodes to do it all.
      Escape Cersei’s clutches, face his past crimes, follow his heart with Brienne, fight on the side of good and the living…and then run away, get captured, spend half an episode struggling to get into a Keep that’s being attacked, get stabbed by finger in the bum guy, and then comfort his evil twin as they’re both buried in the mess she technically made.
      It was a busy season for him and he was able to have some pretty wonderful and memorable scenes. Maybe he was so upbeat because his character got some closure this year and got to have those moments.

      *still not okay about Jaime* lol

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    19. I must say the first couple of posts I’ve been to have been kinder with the comments on the whole than twitter, lol was expecting a lot worse. I’m almost afraid to opened the ‘first reaction’ posts, lol

      I was determined to be positive this season, with only 6 episodes left, I just wanted to stop criticizing the show for mistakes I thought it was making to characters, and just watch it and try and understand what they were trying to say, rather than putting my own head version over theirs… a rewatch with this perspective also helped. This season, although rushed and I would also like more (always) made sense to me, I feel like everyone is playing the parts they were meant to play… the few wtf moments are minor or I can accept them upon further thought and reflection.

      I really have been loving this season and will also be sad when it is over in 1 week… Nothing is perfect, but there is so much more great in this show, that it is sad so many just want to focus on the negatives, like a coffee cup or missing trees it starts to feel like a tide of negativity with people giving 1/10 to episodes that are nowhere near that, just out of pettiness or spite?

      I’m glad I found a few places where I can still talk about the show with affection – flaws and all.

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    20. Such a great episode! Drogon and Dany are everything we could have hoped. Sandor, wow, such a perfect story – so well done.

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    21. RG:
      Mango,

      NCW was an amazing Jaime, but he kind of got the shaft after his time with Brienne due to the removal of the big Riverlands story lines, so he had to stay with Cersei despite her doing things the character would no longer be okay with. It ended up with him in Dorne, him standing by her when she blew up Sept. Him not learning about Lancel. Lots of things.

      Then he gets this one season, just one season with 6 episodes to do it all.
      Escape Cersei’s clutches, face his past crimes, follow his heart with Brienne, fight on the side of good and the living…and then run away, get captured, spend half an episode struggling to get into a Keep that’s being attacked, get stabbed by finger in the bum guy, and then comfort his evil twin as they’re both buried in the mess she technically made.
      It was a busy season for him and he was able to have some pretty wonderful and memorable scenes. Maybe he was so upbeat because his character got some closure this year and got to have those moments.

      *still not okay about Jaime* lol

      Maybe. Maybe.

      He did a great job. But I always wonder if you want to play 10 years and to die because you cannot escape your incest sister. Good money though…he was doing good!

      Yes, I know the dead Jaime thing sucks!

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    22. Mango: As for Cersei, I was surprised that she did not have an exit path out of the Red Keep planned and ready. That is a basic thing for escape for rulers. This is just incompetent.

      I would have like her death to be one of defiance, where she also possibly did something to save her brothers or others

      Or, that she would go the way she planned at the Blackwater.

      Instead, she started to panic and simper. It Jaime (who you called weak!) that never lost his composure even in face of death. That takes nerves of steel.

      Cersei made someawful errors – Tywin was right, she is not that clever. Qyburn was her hand!!!

      I thought about the poison during Blackwater too, I guess she held out hope because of the baby and believing there was no way she could lose? I just don’t think she really understood the dragons fire power, and they only needed 1 good shot – plus surrounded herself with 1million innocents! I guess she thought she would win? In Blackwater she was afraid they would lose, here she was confident until the Bells.

      Cersei breaking down was in character to me, she likes to act tough but she really isn’t – especially physically. Escape plan, maybe Qyburn had one? They were going somewhere before they were interrupted.

      Jamie has a weakness of character, but he is isn’t a coward! He has faced death many times. He knew he needed to be strong for her and he was.

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    23. Mango,

      Yeah Cersei was just–Honestly it was a waste of a potentially epic break down there. Lena could have killed it with some good dialogue. Suddenly realizing she hadn’t just lost, she was about to burn for it along with everyone else. After what she’d done to her husband, her children, to the Starks, the Tyrells, everyone. Having it hit her could have been an unforgettable, powerful moment.

      Don’t get me wrong, she did a lot with nothing to work with, but just “not like this” and “you’re bleeding” It didn’t seem like her at all to me. I know she’s all paper lion-but I still think she could have had more to say.

      After getting barely any screen time this season, it was kind of a sad end to the longest lasting trouble maker on the show.

      Also I’m not sure why they actually made her pregnant after showing that scene with Maggy the frog. I was sure it was a lie, because it didn’t have to be true to manipulate her brothers. But as usual lately, I was wrong lol

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    24. RG:
      Mango,

      Yeah Cersei was just–Honestly it was a waste of a potentially epic break down there. Lena could have killed it with some good dialogue. Suddenly realizing she hadn’t just lost, she was about to burn for it along with everyone else. After what she’d done to her husband, her children, to the Starks, the Tyrells, everyone. Having it hit her could have been an unforgettable, powerful moment.

      Don’t get me wrong, she did a lot with nothing to work with, but just “not like this” and “you’re bleeding” It didn’t seem like her at all to me. I know she’s all paper lion-but I still think she could have had more to say.

      After getting barely any screen time this season, it was kind of a sad end to the longest lasting trouble maker on the show.

      Also I’m not sure why they actually made her pregnant after showing that scene with Maggy the frog. I was sure it was a lie, because it didn’t have to be true to manipulate her brothers. But as usual lately, I was wrong lol

      Like everyone I thought the pregnancy would end in a swift miscarriage.

      Instead it restricted the choices that Jaime could in good conscience make….even if he wanted to leave her. The baby after the death of three made it impossible.

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    25. Aaawh, NCW and Heady hugging. Now I want a hug from both.

      Conleth, you did everything perfect. Varys was a fighter for good. Not for a certain house, but for the common folk, in other worlds, what 99% are in the real world.

      McCann is brilliant, I see it clearly before me him with a trumpet.

      I need to remember to watch those 2 smaller clips tomorrow.

      Preview: Dany does look like the biggest tyrant of the whole saga. Even scarier than Cersei or her father. And I’m wonder. Will Dany/Stark clash be at KL or WF. I fear she fly north.

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      So rory is secretly Karl Tanner, a fucking legend from Gin Alley

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    26. RG:
      Mango,

      NCW was an amazing Jaime, but he kind of got the shaft after his time with Brienne due to the removal of the big Riverlands story lines, so he had to stay with Cersei despite her doing things the character would no longer be okay with. It ended up with him in Dorne, him standing by her when she blew up Sept. Him not learning about Lancel. Lots of things.

      Then he gets this one season, just one season with 6 episodes to do it all.
      Escape Cersei’s clutches, face his past crimes, follow his heart with Brienne, fight on the side of good and the living…and then run away, get captured, spend half an episode struggling to get into a Keep that’s being attacked, get stabbed by finger in the bum guy, and then comfort his evil twin as they’re both buried in the mess she technically made.
      It was a busy season for him and he was able to have some pretty wonderful and memorable scenes. Maybe he was so upbeat because his character got some closure this year and got to have those moments.

      *still not okay about Jaime* lol

      I felt the same way about the riverland removal in favor of sending him to Dorne… felt like the Dorne characters were not given real development because Jamie was there, so it became his story – and he wasn’t needed there – such a missed opportunity to adapt both the riverlands and dorne story lines… both are quite interesting, but I guess there is so little to go on since most of what we got was setup in the books, that they couldn’t fit it in without adding a lot of new characters, and the show is already character heavy…

      this is a problem for many books readers too, they don’t like that GRRM got distracted in Dorne, Mereen, fAegon, etc… and want GRRM to concentrate on the main story lines all ready established – worried he will never be able to finish 🙂 maybe the writers felt the same way, stay focused on the plots and characters we have… still I personally would have like to see it too ^_^

      Yeah, they crammed a lot into Jamie’s story this season, I think Dany and Arya have also been focused on the most this season – with character arcs to complete. Everyone else is mostly playing their parts to the bittersweet end 🙂

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    27. Disaya:
      I just got hit by a theoriethat the longer I think of it,the more I believe it will happen.I think Dany is gonna die by crossbow.That would be sooooo Got. Politics (greed) all the way.

      By bronn. I can hear him saying to Tyrion: I couldn’t let you die before I got me Castle.

      I hope for him that Tyrion survives next episode, else he can say goodbye too a castle. Would be very tragic for bronn.

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    28. kevin1989: By bronn. I can hear him saying to Tyrion: I couldn’t let you die before I got me Castle.

      I hope for him that Tyrion survives next episode, else he can say goodbye too a castle. Would be very tragic for bronn.

      well Bronn would enjoy adding Queenslayer or Dragonslayer to his name, and I think he would be able get at least one… but he did say he was done with fighting… but you are right, he needs to protect his investment, uh Tyrion ^_^

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    29. I knew I loved Rory for a reason! 🤗 So happy he got his ending they way he wanted it! #Cleganebowl was real folks. NWC and Lena were perfectly matched in their roles and frankly everyone, but the Lannisters as a group just had such incredible chemistry. I just don’t know how that’s possible . To keep it alive for 8 seasons at some point these things tend to stagnate but these actors that portrayed this House just felt like this amazing group that were existing organically like a family happy or hating each other dysfunctional and everything but just perfect together. (and I include Tywin here too).

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    30. Shows that have ended in the first half of 2019 that had great final seasons (just a little positivity and maybe I’ll finally turn someone on to Fleabag 🙂 )

      Fleabag – a masterpiece from start to finish

      Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt -after a couple of lousy seasons they stuck the landing

      Catastrophe – I’m still haunted by its final moments and what they truly mean for the 2 leads

      You’re the Worst – Employed a Lost-esque flash forward device sparingly throughout that made complete sense in the series finale once all the puzzle pieces were in place

      Veep – Selina Meyer is the true mad queen

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    31. RG,

      You know what is annoying now when it was not before. For no specific reason, I am annoyed on NCW’s behalf.

      Every season Jaime is restyled. A new hairstyle, new clothes, scruff or heavy beard, etc. for me it focused attention as a character with evolution or someone important to the series. Just compare him to the other men – jon, varys, tyrion,davos. In fact, he may the only one male or female this season that had his hair restyled. Why the fuss? He did not even make the end game and we are to believe he was a kind of weirdo addict. Geez.
      (I know this is quite irrational!)

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    32. Right now season 8 is my 2nd favorite season, I rated the episode for myself and this is my ratings:

      1. Season 4: 9,70
      2. Season 8: 9,68
      3. Season 6: 9,51
      4. Season 1: 9,51
      5. Season 7: 9,43
      6. Season 3: 9,21
      7. Season 5: 9,17
      8. Season 2: 8,93

      Meaning that if the next episode is a 9,8 for me it will be nr 1.

      It can happen that later this week I change my mind it it will drop. Or others will rise. And I found it difficult to rate GoT episodes. Because my lowest is 8,2. I compare that episode to other shows and I come to 8,2. Every other needed to be higher and to find the right balance it difficult. how do you decide which episode is better, and if it’s better if it’s small that it deserve the same rating. Even making a top 72 is difficult. And still am not sure if it’s right.

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    33. Mango:
      RG,

      You know what is annoying now when it was not before. For no specific reason, I am annoyed on NCW’s behalf.

      Every season Jaime is restyled. A new hairstyle, new clothes, scruff or heavy beard, etc. for me it focused attention as a character with evolution or someone important to the series. Just compare him to the other men – jon, varys, tyrion,davos. In fact, he may the only one male or female this season that had his hair restyled.Why the fuss? He did not even make the end game and we are to believe he was a kind of weirdo addict. Geez.
      (I know this is quite irrational!)

      I know what you mean about his arc (and hair). I do think the 10 years aged him more than any other character (other than the kids). I don’t think they made him extra gray. He really looked alot different than when he was the golden boy of season 1. I’m feeling today it’s not all black and white with him with his arc. I think it’s more that Brienne brought out the best in him. It’s not really that he changed. He did come to see that what he did was horrible (pushing Bran out the window). He did apologize to Bran for this. But he never apologized for protecting his family when he stood in front of the Starks. Even Brienne couldn’t totally change him. Cersei was always going to be his world, and in the end he couldn’t deny that fact or that he did horrid things just for the sake of Cersei. I think there is something to be said that some people bring out the best in us. Unfortunately, this show can be depressing with saying that most people can’t change who they are… I’m hopeful for Arya. I said this in another post that the only hopeful part of the night was that Arya may have chosen to leave her vengeance behind. However, I do feel like her skills will be needed in the finale somehow. But perhaps it will be her family skills that are needed to help Jon somehow.

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    34. Tron79,

      I think it is dark message that you cannot change….that I hate. That you cannot be better than the shit you have been and the shit you have seen. You actually start using the better parts of yourlef because you know your weaknesses. Adulting, really.

      Yes, if you start in your early forties like NCW then will being greying over the next 10 years. If you started at 22 then you will no get any grey over the same period.

      But that is just a dye job to fix greying.

      This fashion parade went beyond that to the restyling shapes, etc. Look at Brienne and Cersei, same hair as last season. Man actor without evolution – different hair every week. So they signal evolution but he ends up with none.

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    35. Catspaw Assassin:
      Fave moment: when Arya thanked Sandor. Has anyone else ever called him by his first name?

      My favorite moment too!
      And no, I can’t recall anyone ever calling Sandor by his first name. It was either “Clegane” (eg Beric, Thoros); “the Hound” (LF; Arya, before this episode); or “Sandor Clegane” (Brother Ray; Beric).

      Someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

      I had hoped all along that Sandor would steer Arya away from her vengeance trail, though I didn’t picture it this way.

      I gotta admit: When he placed his hand gently on the back of her neck and looked into her eyes, I started tearing.

      P.S. After all the “No CleganeBowl” insistences from the showrunners (and maybe GRRM too?)… they finally had… CleganeBowl!
      Boy, Gregor sure was ugly.

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    36. I do have one question I wanted to throw out there (and I apologize if this was discussed or mentioned somewhere else, but there are so many angry comments I can read…and i may re-post this in the finale threat) but have D&D said what the 3rd “Big Moment” was that George shared with them.

      They first mentioned these moments after Shireen died, and then we learned that Hold the Door was #2. I believe they said the 3rd moment was near the very end, so I don’t know if it already happened as was discussed on an After the Episode feature, or if we have one more interesting surprise to look forward to in the finale. Any idea?

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    37. I rather enjoyed the episode. (Maybe ‘enjoyed’ isn’t quite the right word.)

      I think Dany is wrong in saying Jon betrayed her. He never promised not to tell Sansa and Arya his secret and while she used a ‘command’ voice to tell him not to, she never actually forbade him. Also, I think she was wrong to ask anyway.

      Tyrion escaped but Varys didn’t. I noticed on my second watch that in Varys’ second scene at the table the table appears to be clear of the scrolls he was writing, suggesting he sent them. Jon and Tyrion did look uncomfortable at Varys execution. (Seriously, why has Jon turned into a ‘my queen’ doormat?)

      What was the point of the Golden Company? I did enjoy the shock that Jon showed as he tried to stop his men, to no avail as the Unsullied and Northmen continued to fight the Lannisters after the latter had surrendered because Dany started burning.

      Why Dany snapped I’m still not sure. I saw it coming but it was horrific to watch her burn the citizens of KL. I don’t think she cared whether she was burning her own troops or not, tbh. (Drogon’s got some great stamina.) Unfortunately, I don’t see how Dany can live. She is ‘Queen if the Ashes’ and all she now has is fear. (Along with a massive army and Drogon.)

      Loved Arya’s moment with Sandor. Finally, she sees what a life of revenge does and he should know. Cleganebowl (Yeah! But seriously what did Qyburn do to the Mountain?) interspersed with Arya trying to avoid beiong roasted felt really dramatic to me. R.I.P. Sandor. (Eat all the chicken you can.)

      I think it is now clear that Tyrion will no longer support Dany. (She will likely find out that he freed Jamie) but now his mind is set as she burned innocents. Same for Jon. He has to take off his rose-tinted specs (about time) and see how different from him she is. Jon would NEVER have gone on a rampage like that. Arya likely has one more name added to the kill list.

      I worry for Jon, Tyrion, Sansa and Arya in next weeks ep. In the end, I’m almost certain Dany won’t make it.

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    38. It’s pretty shocking to hear what Emilia Clarke and Jacob Anderson had to say.

      I mean, do they understand what happened ? Dany deliberately targeted civilians and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of them, methodically, for no reason at all.

      Now Emilia is trying to say it’s not madness but grief ? What in the hell ?

      Of course it’s bloody madness ! It’s insanity of the highest order. She’s just murdered more innocent people than the Night King and for what ? The battle was won. It was totally unnecessary.

      How can she sit there and tell us that it’s a natural response to grief ?
      Dany is not the only person who has lost things. Jon never knew his parents. He lost Ned, Robb, Rickon, Pyp, Grenn, Ygritte, etc…
      Jon was murdered by his brothers.

      Jon has experienced just as much grief and pain as she has, if not more. Yet he isn’t slaughtering innocents for sport.

      She says Dany is consumed with a desire to kill Cersei in that moment. I’m sorry, did we see the same episode ? I saw Dany go street by street for a good thirty minutes, murdering every civilian in sight.

      She did not just want to kill Cersei, she wanted to kill every last person in King’s Landing. She lost her mind as much as it is possible to lose one’s mind. She couldn’t possibly be less sane.

      But no, I’m supposed to believe this is some understandable grief ?

      I could maybe understand it if Dany snapped in a desperate situation. But she has no excuse for snapping after having won and seen the city surrender.

      The fact that Emilia is trying to justify that is frankly extremely disappointing and a little disturbing. She just desperately doesn’t want to see Dany as a bad person, even though Dany has become the biggest murderer of innocents in the history of Westeros.

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    39. From Rory’s EW interview:

      “But I’m absolutely delighted. I’m blessed to be given this storyline. Blessed to be given storylines in the past seasons with all the [Westeros] politics going on — that we were able to have a Hound-Arya road trip. The Hound seems to get some great one liners. You could have a T-shirt factory with just the one-liners I’ve been given.”

      Yeah, no kidding. Roll out the T-shirts!!!

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    40. Dumnomnii:
      Looking at the Last Watch trailer, two things are puzzling:

      Yep, that is odd. The episodes are usually shot in order, aren’t they? Although with some of the long battle shoots, they may have done things out of order. Or there is a winter ending for a certain character…

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    41. Unless something earth-shattering happens in e6 involving another character…

      Maisie Williams is the MVP of S8. I’m so glad she took center stage after being sidelined for much of S7.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Lars,

      Things are routinly shot ‘out of order’. The last shot Emilia filmed was not likely to be her last shot in the show. Same for the other characters. It’s usually done by location so all shots in a certain location, no matter what episode, are likely shot together. 🙂

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    43. Dumnomnii,

      regarding the Last Watch preview

      Did you notice the white horse in front of the green screen in the preview? It’s quick. Was that Arya riding the horse as it went up on its hind legs? I’m wondering if that’s something from episode 6. I wonder what’s showing on the green screen when she’s riding (if it’s Arya).

        Quote  Reply

    44. Season 8 has been a big disappointment to me. The writing is weak and there are so many “really, how do you explain that one” Take Episode 5: Doesn’t it feel really odd that Cirsie’s end is really a benevolent one. She dies in the arms of her twin and Weiss Benioff explain it as “they were born together so we felt it they should die together.” What rubbish. Cirsie deserved much worse.
      Incongruously Kit Harrington is the cause of Daeneyrs’s “kill everyone” attack on King’s Landing as he refuses Daenerys’s affections and previously made the idiotic mistake of sharing his origins with Sansa and Arya. Did he not know Sansa was a bit of a viper? It was obvious to all of us. Did we really believe Jamie would convince Cirsie to leave with him on a little boat? Really?

      This time Daenery’s dragon was “Supercharged”, learned to “bob and weave” when arrows were launched and takes down enormous stone buildings with his fire breadth.
      Wow, what did they feed that dragon.

      Daenerys utter destruction of King’s Landing was also not consistent with her character. She had been isolated before and still acted honorably. This time due to Jon Snow’s rejection of her affections, her Hand’s stupid mistakes (I guess he will be executed in the final episode, deservedly so) and perhaps Sansa’s treachery. It still doesn’t wash that she would kill an entire population of innocents. That left me wondering about the inability of the write more “true to character” episodes. It’s just bad writing…that’s all. Yuck.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Lars,

      Ghostgirl,

      To add to what Ghostgirl is saying, think about the logistics and costs of a film or TV production. They generally need to get all the shots in one location done regardless of the timeline of the story before moving on to the next location. When they are shooting in a studio, they have move flexibility, but logistics and costs are critical factors. Coordinating all the talent, crew, sets, locations, and everything else is a HUGE logistical challenge and GOT producers have really mastered it. Every now and then a show or movie is shot in sequence of the story but that is unusual. Actors sometimes talk about the challenges of jumping around their character’s development because of the shooting schedule and some do it better than others.

      You may have seen or heard that Pedro Pascal’s first scene shot was his wonderful scene where he offers to be Tyrion’s champion. That was is first day on the set. However, in the episode it appears a ways into his story line.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Nick20,

      Please respect the actors.

      Emilia is halfway right. Her snap was fueled by grief. It was clear on danys face when she snapped. And grief is what drives madness. Grief and paranoia. Or do you think cersei sitting in her parents home, her home close but still so far, the people fearing her when she just went the civil route. Jon. Varys moments weren’t on her mind in that moment?

      Yes dany is mad now. But the snap is always fueled by some emotions.

      And as for Emilia. You clearly never read about Emilias background with her health and what dany meant for her as a character. Is it so difficult to understand that this is something difficult to comprehend for her. Even if she always knew the signs were there.

      She was professional and acted the scene perfectly.

      As for Anderson. He talks about Grey worm. Not himself. So blame the character not the actor.

        Quote  Reply

    47. JamesL:
      To me the biggest flaw of both “The Long Night” and “The Bells” was that they were high on carnage but low on drama and dialogue. Lots of hacking and slashing and fire but that can get boring if there is not good drama to go along with it. The best scene was with Jaime and Tyrion. It would have been nice to have more powerful character moments like that in the finale season.

      One other main thing this finale season has been missing is the loss of fantasy and mysticism after episode 3 (besides the dragons). Even if the WWs and Night King had to be defeated in episode 3 that doesn’t mean they should just be completely forgotten about. White Walkers were defeated before yet they came back, will they come back again or are they defeated for good? They could have used Bran to deal with these questions and kept some of the mystery surrounding beyond the Wall and the WWs into these last episodes. Maybe they will deal with this in the finale but I doubt it…

      I’m realizing the issue is that they decided they didn’t want another action movie where we were following the hero to save the day and ignore what was happening to the people on the ground. So that becomes a problem because we lose the drama of rooting for our action hero. It just becomes watching the horrid reality of what happens to the poor people on the ground during a bombing campaign. It leaves you depressed with the reality of what just happened. In an action movie, it’s possible Jon or Ayra could have realized what Dany was doing “burning them all” and then saved the day somehow, and we would be rooting for them to stop her. That’s not the way they went for this episode. They actually ended the real battle in the first couple minutes! It was similar to how quickly the NK fell (in one episode). The real drama to them is what happens afterwards. In “the bells” what happened afterwards is that Dany decided to rule by fear and went total fire and blood. She became the queen of the ashes which is totally sad. I thought this was an incredible episode, but there was very little if anything to celebrate. It was just total carnage and many of the characters we’ve lived with for 10 years+ didn’t make it out. I felt sad today. This was tough emotionally. I’m sad we won’t get to see Varys, Jaime or Sandor anymore. I’m sad that Jaime didn’t end up going home to Casterly Rock with Brienne to carry on the Lannister name (however even if Jaime wanted to do this, Brienne probably wouldn’t have wanted to be a lady, similar to Arya’s response).

      I am hoping they at least give us some heroics in the finale. Even if it’s not totally real, I feel like I need some hope before it all ends. I’m going to stay hopeful that Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran will somehow be the heroes. There really aren’t many left. Those who said everyone dies in the end were pretty accurate. We really only have a few left standing.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Nick20,

      I agree. When you compare Dany and Jon they have both been through shit. A lot of shit but they have reacted differently. I think Jon (finally) has seen the dark side of Dany. Even at his lowest Jon would never have killed innocents. (Although, currently he is a doormat.)

      I think that line in season 7:

      Dany: We all enjoy what we’re good at.
      Jon: I don’t.

      Tells the tale here.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Ten Bears,

      I want the one with a chicken on it.

      Dee Stark:
      Ten out of fucking ten. I am speechless. I don’t know what to do with myself.

      (Watched it delayed)

      It seems I wasn’t alone. I was just shaken after the episode. Never had that with got this amount. So many emotions. I was glad cersei had her emotions back. Yes she’s still a bitch then but it made her human. Not the robot after tommens dead.
      Sandor being a dad to Arya.
      Jon conflicted and blaming himself.
      Arya being the hero.
      Tyrion Jaime scene.
      The citizens.
      Dany rage. I hated her for it. And I felt sad for her. Yes she is evil now. But I understand that feeling. The moment when emotion went too much. Luckily I had help. She had not.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Ten Bears,

      Don’t forget Emilia Clarke. Emilia deserves an Emmy for this. Her scenes were just perfect this season.

      Ten Bears,

      It was. Arya can be happy to have had 2 great dads.

      onefromaway,

      Very difficult for actors. Especially if there is many changes in characters like dany this season. Big praise for Emilia.

      Tron79,

      Even cersei I will miss. Lena heady brought something special to the screen.

      And yes I hope next episode will be somehow happy where dany will be defeated and our heroes live all. I mean even if they all live its bittersweet for them all.
      Tyrion: a part of him died when dany went on a rampage. He was the one that made sure she landed on westeros. He helped her in mereen. His family is gone. He has no one anymore. Hopefully the starks take him in.
      Jon: how he will ever forgive himself is a puzzle to me.
      Bran: is 3er now
      Sansa: I think she will have it easier to live with herself. But still the carnase can still haunt her with what if I had not said anything. I don’t blame her but I can see her to blame herself. I hope we get a scene where she blame herself and Jon consoles her that it wasn’t her fault and she was right. But still her story is dark with joffrey and ramsay.
      Arya: difficult. The choice between family and exploring the world. I hope she will choose family. I can’t stand if she will leave them.

      The pack needs to stay strong and together.

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    51. I hope Jon has something meaningful to do in the final episode. His character arc ever since being named King in the North has been bitterly disappointing to me. He’s been a borderline supporting character since season 7.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Dump enough ingratitude, betrayal, isolation, heartbreak, hostility, distrust, loathing, loss of loved ones on anyone, and his or her worst proclivities will be triggered. That’s what happened to Dany. It could happen to almost anyone.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Ten Bears:
      From Rory’s EW interview:

      “But I’m absolutely delighted. I’m blessed to be given this storyline. Blessed to be given storylines in the past seasons with all the [Westeros] politics going on — that we were able to have a Hound-Arya road trip. The Hound seems to get some great one liners. You could have a T-shirt factory with just the one-liners I’ve been given.”

      Yeah, no kidding. Roll out the T-shirts!!!

      I love that. And yes. I would watch an entire series of Arya and the Hound on a road trip.
      He got most of the lines that are still everyone’s favorites. And his delivery was perfection.
      Whenever I eat chicken or hear people whinging-even myself lol-I’ll think about him. 🙂
      Also
      “Meryn F-ing Trant?!”
      and “F*** the king!”
      🙂
      He was the best grumpy dad ever.

      Arya really hung out with the coolest characters through this series, didn’t she?

        Quote  Reply

    54. RG,

      I can’t go to a restaurant now without the waiter asking me what I’d like, and responding: “Think I’ll take two chickens.”

        Quote  Reply

    55. orange:
      I hope Jon has something meaningful to do in the final episode. His character arc ever since being named King in the North has been bitterly disappointing to me. He’s been a borderline supporting character since season 7.

      I’m afraid of that at this point. Because everyone who went bad or was evil is gone but his girlfriend/aunt, and if his something big has to do with stopping or killing her, then that could be awful for our hero.
      Think about it. His whole journey really got started when he couldn’t kill Ygritte, who was technically his enemy. She was also his first love.
      Now the only other woman he’s claimed to love probably wants to convict his whole family and Sam of treason and just burned down most of KL.
      Nissa Nissa was a cool story when it was about saving the world from WW, but now?
      On the other hand, if he doesn’t stop her or convince her to give up the throne?
      Not good either.
      I wanted so much for him too. Maybe too much. There were so many signs in the books and show that he was heading in a cool direction. Now, you’re right.
      Despite his secret parents and resurrection and titles, he feels kind of sidelined.

      At this point I’m just hoping he survives and gets to go hang out with Tormund and Ghost. Anything extra will be a bonus.

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    56. Just had my second rewatch. The episode is brilliant. The acting this season has been outstanding but this episode blew me away.

      Maisie’s long take is astounding!

      And yeah that’s definitely Strickland’s horse.

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    57. Ten Bears,

      Waiter: “one chicken per customer only”
      Ten bears: “if any more words come out your cunt mouth I have to eat every chicken in this restaurant”

        Quote  Reply

    58. Disaya:
      I just got hit by a theoriethat the longer I think of it,the more I believe it will happen.I think Dany is gonna die by crossbow.That would be sooooo Got. Politics (greed) all the way.

      I had the same thought, but mine went to –
      What if Dany is about to execute Tyrion and Bronn saves him by shooting her with the crossbow? Because if Tyrion dies, then no Highgarden for Bronn.

      Of course, I doubt GRRM would end it this way, because as far as I know we haven’t seen Bronn lately in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Renly’s Peach: I had the same thought, but mine went to –
      What if Dany is about to execute Tyrion and Bronn saves him by shooting her with the crossbow?Because if Tyrion dies, then no Highgarden for Bronn.

      Of course, I doubt GRRM would end it this way, because as far as I know we haven’t seen Bronn lately in the books.

      So what about the dragon? Poison? Ballista?

        Quote  Reply

    60. Ashoka the Great was an Indian emperor of the Maurya Dynasty, who ruled almost all of the Indian subcontinent from 268 to 232 BC. Ashoka waged wars that killed many and destroyed even more lives. When he was done waging war, Ashoka embraced Buddhism and sought to base an emperor’s right to rule (not on the divine right of kings as had previously been the case in India and continued to be the practice in Europe up until the last Czar) but on adherence to Buddhist tenets.

      Despite his penchant for slaughter of epic proportions of other human beings when younger, Ashoka was ultimately honored in history texts for embracing and supporting, as a mature man, the spread of Buddhism throughout Asia.

      If Ashoka, a man, could ultimately be honored after such a blood thirsty beginning, why not Dany in the GoT universe? Potentially, there’s no difference; other than Dany’s gender.

      Dany could more fully embrace and support new philosophies, the effect of which could immeasurably improve Westeros and Essos. That, in fact, was the path her character followed in the earlier seasons as she freed slaves and committed her armies to the defeat of the White Walkers with no hesitation once she saw the threat.

      It’s difficult to balance competing inner drives especially when one is young. And it is hard not to continue slaughtering your enemies in battle even when the tide has turned in your favor. A hunger develops in soldiers.

      I grew up hearing from family members of surrendering German soldiers being shot in both WWI and WWII by otherwise civilized U.S. soldiers; most of whom, at home in civilized conditions, thought it natural to bounce a baby on their laps and help elderly neighbors across the street.

      My point: it seems odd that there is one standard applicable to male leaders who’ve engaged in slaughter during warfare and another standard applicable to female leaders who’ve done the same thing.

      Unless Dany is truly mad as was her father and this madness is clearly shown in the final episode, I would think it the “modern” approach to allow Dany the room to further progress and develop her nature as did Ashoka. (If the Dany character is shown to be mad, it could be argued that the story tellers have re-enlisted familial taint ( common in literature from earlier centuries) as a plot device.)

      Otherwise, GoT may make the mistake of implicitly supporting a world view in which female leaders in their formative stages must comply with standards society has historically chosen not to impose on male leaders.

      I like the Dany character. I always thought she showed an inclination and attraction towards bravery, civility, humanity, practicality and modernity wherever and whenever possible.

      I’m still hoping that Jon takes Dany out to dinner at a nice restaurant (perhaps a Hot Pie franchise with cheery teenage wait staff), buys her flowers, and kisses and makes up with her so that Dany can see the benefit of co-rulership and the ability to rely on Jon’s unerring kind and dutiful nature. Isn’t that the ideal people in modern relationships attempt to follow?

      I’m thinking that Episode Six will be interesting for what it says about what modern culture still views as plausible and is willing to accept.

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    61. Once again, Varys is right. Now I get why this exchange was included.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwB-FkyWZU

      I sincerely hope that he got out a scroll to someone who will come to the aid of Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya when they need it. I’m not getting my hopes up though. Ha ha! It’s a bit late for my hopes, I’d say, none of which came true.

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    62. Am I the only one who wants to see Jon die in the finale? I think he’s the last undead character in the story. Prince that was Promised or not, he has fulfilled the purpose that the Lord of Light had for him. I don’t actually think he’d be a good king – he’d be like Ned and get outmaneuvered in short order.

      With Dany I’m torn between thinking that she’ll die because the “good guys” can’t let her live now, and thinking that the most subversive ending of all would be to leave her in charge – raining fire on her enemies and essentially leaving Westeros worse off than before. It would mirror the trajectories of a lot of historic revolutionaries who promised to improve the lot of the people, but who actually made things far worse when they won.

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    63. RG,

      Jon’s been neutered (as you described it, “sidelined”) ever since he “bent the knee.” So has Bran, but that’s another story.

      I don’t think we even saw him do too much if any swashbuckling in the two battles this season. It’s all been “Yes, my Queen” since after the Frozen Lake. I was even surprised he didn’t get a reprise showdown with NK, though I’m all for whatever retcon it took to shoehorn Arya into the Princess That Was Promised role in order to pulverize NK.

      Episode 6 has to be about Jon.
      Doesn’t it?????

        Quote  Reply

    64. Ten Bears,

      I think what is most surprising to me about Jon in season 8 is the fact they have routinely described Kit as a borderline action stunt man because of how amazing he is in action scenes and with a sword. And yet, in this final season, with two massive battles, I think this is the least amount of fighting he has done in any of the battles he was part of over 7 seasons. That is really stunning to me, especially considering this is the final opportunity to take advantage of Kit’s skills.

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    65. Mango: So what about the dragon? Poison? Ballista?

      I hate to think about them killing Drogon. I’d rather see Bran warg into him and fly him to Valyria to live out the rest of his days. What I want clearly means nothing though, lol. He’ll die if Dany does, but I don’t want to think about how they’ll do it.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Ten Bears:
      RG,

      Jon’s been neutered (as you described it, “sidelined”) ever since he “bent the knee.” So has Bran, but that’s another story.

      I don’t think we even saw him do too much if any swashbuckling in the two battles this season. It’s all been “Yes, my Queen” since after the Frozen Lake. I was even surprised he didn’t get a reprise showdown with NK, though I’m all for whatever retcon it took to shoehorn Arya into the Princess That Was Promised role in order to pulverize NK.

      Episode 6 has to be about Jon.
      Doesn’t it?????

      You are right that he has been very passive. So he has to come to life at some point. or proceed to a full death. How does he handle what has happened? It would be something if Dany ruled and they simply served because of fear of her. What of the northmen who behaved badly? And all the Dothraki and Unsullied involved in the slaughter and the dragon? Killing Daenerys may not solve the problem.

      I cannot guess what happens from here.

      That said Sansa looks like something important happened for her.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Ten Bears:
      RG,

      Jon’s been neutered (as you described it, “sidelined”) ever since he “bent the knee.” So has Bran, but that’s another story.

      I don’t think we even saw him do too much if any swashbuckling in the two battles this season. It’s all been “Yes, my Queen” since after the Frozen Lake.

      Episode 6 has to be about Jon.
      Doesn’t it?????

      Let’s hope Jon steps up next episode, because I found it so sad that he was left standing there in the middle of KL with his mouth hanging open at the carnage. There should have been a bubble above his head saying, “Clearly I have made a terrible mistake.”

        Quote  Reply

    68. Renly’s Peach: Let’s hope Jon steps up next episode, because I found it so sad that he was left standing there in the middle of KL with his mouth hanging open at the carnage.There should have been a bubble above his head saying, “Clearly I have made a terrible mistake.”

      I hope and lots and lots of good things happen because with 80 minutes to go, it is looking like a nihilistic ending. I think it is a bit hard on viewers to have so many on a multi-year journey that ends on a dark.. And with the carnage in the last edition, I am not sure they can clean it up unless we have been in a dream by Bran.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Colin Dougherty,

      Interesting commentary.

      • When you wrote: “I grew up hearing from family members of surrendering German soldiers being shot in both WWI and WWII by otherwise civilized U.S. soldiers…” it reminded me

      Clint Eastwood’s

      elderly veteran character in the movie

      “Gran Torino”

      who was haunted his whole life by the guilt of shooting a surrendering young soldier during the Vietnam or Korean War.

      • Not to get too philosophical… Here goes anyway:
      In retrospect, I wonder what was going through President Truman’s mind 74 years ago when he made the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yes, it put a swift end to the war in the Pacific, but how to justify the horrible cost in civilian lives?
      I’ll have to read up on that. What could convince a “civilized” leader – no doubt supported by his war generals and advisors – to go all “fire and blood” against cities filled with noncombatants?
      It boggles my mind. As I recall, there was some calculus about loss of Allied lives in a drawn-out conventional series of battles, versus civilian lives lost by dropping nukes on Japanese cities to force an immediate capitulation.
      It’s so horrific I don’t like to think about it; the barbarity of WMD warfare is hard for me to fathom.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Mango,

      It’s already nihilistic to me, no mater what happens in the final episode. And I say that because no matter what happens, I cannot fathom it would be enough to bring any type of closure to these characters and allow them any type of semblance of being able to move forward with positivity. All of the characters are in terrible and miserable places at this point. And that’s the penultimate episode. It’s not like we’re in the middle of the story anymore.

      The North and now the South has been wrecked with horror, murder, chaos, destruction, and disorder in only 2 episodes. I just don’t see what can possibly happen in one final episode to not make this an overly nihilistic ending. What happened in 803 and 805 will take decades, and generations to get over and get past in Westeros. And they never really will.

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    71. orange:
      Mango,

      It’s already nihilistic to me, no mater what happens in the final episode. And I say that because no matter what happens, I cannot fathom it would be enough to bring any type of closure to these characters and allow them any type of semblance of being able to move forward with positivity. All of the characters are in terrible and miserable places at this point. And that’s the penultimate episode. It’s not like we’re in the middle of the story anymore.

      The North and now the South has been wrecked with horror, murder, chaos, destruction, and disorder in only 2 episodes. I just don’t see what can possibly happen in one final episode to not make this an overly nihilistic ending. What happened in 803 and 805 will take decades, and generations to get over and get past in Westeros. And they never really will.

      You are right. it is sad.

      I know we should be open to all kinds of stories.

      But very dark endings are a special category best used in small doses. I also prefer if it is for shorter time investments by viewers. For long runs, I begin to want the people I have spent so much time with to have some semblance of peace/happiness.

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    72. Mango: I hope and lots and lots of good things happen because with 80 minutes to go, it is looking like a nihilistic ending. I think it is a bit hard on viewers to have so many on a multi-year journey that ends on a dark.. And with the carnage in the last edition,I am not sure they can clean it up unless we have been in a dream by Bran.

      Honestly, at this point I think I might be okay if this was a Bran dream
      Give me some Disney. Bring it. This is too dark and full of terrors! lol
      But seriously, I do agree. I’m wracking my brain looking for a potential happy-ish ending, or even the continuation of the Stark line.
      Maybe Sandor’s short talk with Arya and that whole Pompeii experience makes her rethink Gendry’s proposal?
      Davos and Brienne survive?
      That’s all I’ve got.

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    73. RG: Honestly, at this point I think I might be okay if this was a Bran dream
      Give me some Disney. Bring it. This is too dark and full of terrors! lol
      But seriously, I do agree. I’m wracking my brain looking for a potential happy-ish ending, or even the continuation of the Stark line.
      Maybe Sandor’s short talk with Arya and that whole Pompeii experience makes her rethink Gendry’s proposal?
      Davos and Brienne survive?
      That’s all I’ve got.

      I think I will not view it until I get some feel for the content. I think I am about to wind up my GOT participation as a viewer and poster. Not now but within the next 24hours, I think.

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    74. Renly’s Peach,

      “I hate to think about them killing Drogon. I’d rather see Bran warg into him and fly him to Valyria to live out the rest of his days. What I want clearly means nothing though, lol….”

      ________
      I think you may be on to something! Although lots of foreshadowing has been tossed out the window, consider this;

      1. When Bran first met 3ER 1.0 in S4e10, the tree geezer told Bran he will never walk again, “but you will fly.”

      2. Jojen repeatedly warned Bran if he “warged” too long in Summer, he wouldn’t come back to his human consciousness. Or something like that.

      3. 3ER 1.0 also warned Bran more than once that if he stayed too long in visits to the past he’d get stuck there. Or something like that.

      4. What if the only way to “get rid” of Drogon is for Bran to warg into him – and stay in Drogon past the “get stuck forever” deadline? Bran would “fly”, though he’d spend the rest of his life as a solitary dragon roaming the skies above Old Valyria.
      At least Bran would have some function in the endgame.

      (* removes tinfoil hat *)

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    75. Mango: I think I will not view it until I get some feel for the content. I think I am about to wind up my GOT participation as a viewer and poster. Not now but within the next 24hours, I think.

      My dear Mango! You’re seriously considering abandoning the show after 72 of its 73 total episodes? That’s some heavy-duty disillusionment. (Not judging; just observing.)

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    76. Ten Bears: My dear Mango! You’re seriously considering abandoning the show after 72 of its 73 total episodes? That’s some heavy-duty disillusionment. (Not judging; just observing.)

      Thanks for the concern! I have been happy with S8 so far particularly 8.2 and 8.3. , 8.4. The others have also been good. So I am not discontent.

      Today I spent a lot of time on the site and I have work to do – so my effort is also a way of discipline for my excess posting. But today was still post-Jaime I wanted to post a bit. My control may be weak however so I may pop in here to post even though I am trying not to!

      Over the series, I tended to watch from a point of view of the Jaime Lannister story so I was always going to be less into it after he left. (I also like Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Brienne, Sansa, Davos etc) And as for the 73 run, I do not mind dark stories but I do not like nihilism for its own sake. The last week was bleak. I feel a bit that I would not have started if I knew we would be here – not the specifics but the tone.

      Plus honestly, I can see the strains on the quality as landing a complex series is a hard thing to do. I read one of my regular reviewers today that said the series will likely end in ignominy – and suddenly I could see why he said that.

      I am also sure D&D will try to deliver a masterpiece for 8.6 but I will read in the papers and then watch if the reports are good. And join the conversation as usual….

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    77. Carole H:
      Loved tonights episode no matter what people say.Next week will be the end of an era and I for one intend to wear my Stargaryen tshirt and raise a glass to the new King/Queen of the 7 kingdoms and to say goodbye to the best television programme it has ever been my privilege to watch. 😭🔥🐺👑

      Hi Carole, well its certainly been a great ride for us over the last 9 years. I’ve loved every minute of it and also as part of this fandom on WotW. As you say, there’s never been anything like this on TV. Without doubt, its the been the most addictive TV series I’ve ever watched and I’ve seen plenty over my 71 years – from the times when TV sets were in wooden boxes with 10″ black and white screens in the 1950’s to these modern 21st century colour HD wide flat screens.

      The technology of film making also is just incredible these days what with CGI and SFX? I thought Ray Harryhausen’s battling skeletons in 1960s films such as Jason and the Argonauts was pretty amazing, but compared to GoT with its dragons, the Army of the Dead, etc, it pales in comparison!

      Like you, I’m not concerned how the story will end next week, but sure it will piss off many people. Probably more so the book readers as GRRM said the endings will be the same. It can go many ways, but it looks like what Tyrion said to Dany has become true? You don’t want to end up as the Queen of Ashes… and that exactly what’s she’s done after torching Kings Landing and probably the Iron Throne also! I can’t see her ruling over the 7 kingdoms, Jon/Aegon either.

      However, the great thing I’ll remember about GoT will be more the epic journey its taken us along and not for how it ends?

      I presume you have been watching Thronecast? Next week being the last, Sue Perkins will probably invite that moron Jonathan Ross along as a guest. As you know, I can’t stand the geezer! I know his wife Jane Goldman got the go ahead from HBO with her prequel, but quite how that will pan out who can say. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see, but with no Starks, Lannisters or Targs (and no dragons) I doubt if it will create the interest that GoT did.

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    78. I wholeheartedly agree. With the exception of Arya, Brann, Brianne and a few others the main characters are tainted for one reason or another. It’s a disappointing ending to the series. No one character can recover from what they did or what they experienced no matter how it ends

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    79. Black Raven,

      You are likely to get Starks though. If it is set thousands of years prior to the Ned Stark’s era, then the show should introduce none other than the original Brandon Stark, the last Hero? The famous Bran the Builder (of the wall, Winterfell and Storm’s End). Also, you might see the first Lannister in Lann the Clever and those pesky Boltons who used to make a sport of flaying Starks back in the day. No Targaryens though so no need to burn the budget on dragons.

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    80. I’ll be curious to see Dany’s behavior. Will she have any remorse? Or is it full steam ahead for the mad queen? I hope she’s not all gone. While there is no coming back from what she did, I’d still like to see her come to the realization that what she did was wrong. And I still wonder if she will all of a sudden realize she is pregnant? Wouldn’t that be the cherry on top of all of this mess?

      I have no predictions for the finale. I hope they manage to surprise me and find some way to have some happiness in the end. Because right now, short of Jon returning North and meeting a lovely wildling princess named Val, I’m not seeing how that is possible.

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    81. Ten Bears,

      Hey there. I do remember when the 3ER said “ you will never walk again, but you will fly” which we all assumed meant the crows that he wargs into, but now it could have a new meaning.

      I’d be worried though that Drogon would just fly back to Westeros looking for his mother, like those dogs you hear about that travel thousands of miles to get back to their owners. (Sniff). I doubt that Drogon will survive. If Dany goes, Drogon will have to go too. I just don’t want to see it so I make up happy endings in my head to make myself feel better.

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    82. Mango,

      If Nikolaj understood Jamie at all, he would never be happy with the idea that Jamie would end up on the throne. Jamie never ever had any inclination towards ruling. There were only two things he felt passionate about: Cersei and fighting.

      Not sure in which ways he understood his character but Jamie’s ending on episode 5 was what I always envisioned for him with a different twist: murder-suicide. I thought he might kill Cersei but if he did, then the Jamie from the books will off himself immediately after that. Jamie could never live while his twin died. Tyrion was right – Cersei never really fooled Jamie, never pretended to be something she was not, he knew who she was and he still loved her. Their relationship was super twisted and their tv ending reflected what I always understood of the characters.

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    83. RG,

      This is the description:

      Taking place thousands of years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the world’s descent from the golden Age of Heroes into its darkest hour. From the horrifying secrets of Westeros’s history to the true origin of the White Walkers, the mysteries of the East to the Starks of legend, only one thing is for sure: It’s not the story we think we know.

      I am actually looking forward to it, I dig the Starks a lot more than the Targs. They lived in a cruel world and manage to survive as rulers for 8,000 years, maintaining leadership for so long must have taken some herculean effort. Besides, I might actually get the Long Night that I wanted to see this season. The one Old Nan used rambled about.

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    84. So this was the Mad Queen ending. Next episode I am expecting alternative endings. Especially looking forward to the scoop doo ending.

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    85. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      But that is the thing about Dany, she never allows herself time for reflection. She’s always been afraid of what she might see. “If I look back, I am lost.” This is her mantra in the novels. When people questioned her about the indiscriminate crucifixion of the masters, there’s a moment she starts to think that what she did was not right but she pushes that thought away with the “If I look back, I am lost.” She could have avoided so much pain if she learned that feeling a bit of guilt and questioning yourself is sometimes good for growth.

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    86. Danny,

      Oh me too. I’m Starks all the way. Love the North storylines and the First Men legends. Though one day I wouldn’t mind someone exploring the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. 🙂

      Also-that is a great description. Despite my current mood, I’m probably watching it lol

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    87. I’m confused about Jaime–not from a shipper’s point of view of his relationships with Cersei or Brienne, but as far as understanding what’s going on with the character.

      Bran waited for him in the cold at Winterfell, but I never figured out why. Does anyone know?

      Season after season, we saw nuanced and complex character development. Then out of nowhere, he ups and goes back to Cersei. That could have been understandable if he did it because of the ties of family or his long romantic connection with her, but we never found out.

      Even if he is still alive, how is there any way back? This is a major character and it’s really odd and disappointing they abandoned his character like this.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Nick20,

      Exactly. Destroying the Red Keep, and Cersie in it, after the bells of surrender would have been “snapping” or grief or anger or revenge. Going row-by-row through civilian neighborhoods “burning them all” was madness.

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    89. Antst: Season after season, we saw nuanced and complex character development. Then out of nowhere, he ups and goes back to Cersei.

      My guess is it’s akin to an addict. They can get clean and do many good things and “change,” and in a single moment backslide into their addiction.

      However, I would have liked to have seen some tension or conflict within Jaime. As in, he went back to KL to kill Cersie to stop the war/slaughter, but saw her in distress and when faced with his addiction, couldn’t help but attempt to rescue her instead. I don’t know, I’m making this up as I go along, but it would have been great to see Jaime conflicted and struggling with the old vs. new, even if the old won out. Instead he essentially had morning-after-sex-regret with Brienne (tried the ol’ sneak out of bed walk of shame route) and decided to go run back to his ex.

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    90. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I’m just hoping she doesn’t fly off, unwilling to face the consequences. And end up at Winterfell to take revenge on Sansa.

      I really want Sansa to live and be the Lady of Winterfell. I wonder if Bronn stopped off at the castle after his meeting with Jaime and Tyrion? They’d be cute together.

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    91. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      Yes, you said it better than I did. Whether it’s because he’s an addict or not, we have no idea what his motivations were. We got nothing–his decision to go back was so mechanical and then he just showed up and splat.

      As for the way he left Brienne, it makes no sense. Seven seasons of growing affection and finding his honor again, then he just ups and leaves? And why did Bran wait for him? Makes no sense at all.

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    92. What a brave ending, true to the show. Evil is a matter of perspective. Danny have been roasting her enemies since Season 2. I am not buying Into Varys narrative of the coin toss. Nothing is that simple. She had every reason to hate Kings Landing. Tyrion and Jon loves Westeros, but to Dany this is a cruel land, that has talen everything from her and her family. I would totalt expect her to fly back to Mereen next episode. There is nothing for her in Westeros. Everyone got what they deserved, and the only enemy is war. Varys thinks he is above everyone else, but he is just as bad. He too is guilty of war mongering. Davos is the only person left with his morals intact.

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    93. MaxT,

      Evil might be a matter of perspective when you’re comparing Cersei to her father or Queen of Thorns or Littlefinger or Roose Bolton etc. (all people who did bad things, but not random irrational bad things).

      But when it comes to roasting possibly hundreds of thousands of civilians *after they’ve surrendered* out of anger or grief or lunacy, there’s not a lot of gray area. Evil is as evil does.

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    94. Renly’s Peach: Let’s hope Jon steps up next episode, because I found it so sad that he was left standing there in the middle of KL with his mouth hanging open at the carnage. There should have been a bubble above his head saying, “Clearly I have made a terrible mistake.”

      Maybe turn your contrast up. I could clearly see that bubble.

      (Sweet moment, Kit Harrington!)

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    95. Sandor…thank you.

      Arya and Sandor = perfection. He loves his wolf pup, and she him.

      Cleganebowl = the event I never wanted to happen turned out to be, along with Sandor and Arya, the standout part of the episode.

      My 2 favourite characters, Jorah and Sandor, both went out on their own terms.

      As for everything else, my response is that of Sandor when he realizes Gregor just won’t “fucking die already.”

      Laughing in absurd realization that this is what is happening after all these years.

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    96. I am wondering (maybe it is a mad theory) but what if all what we saw of episode 4-5 was the vision of Bran looking at the future before the Night King come to him by the tree. We still don’t understand what the 3ER was doing at final moment before the Night King was killed. Bran said he see quite a lot, mostly in the past, hence he also look at the future! Surely if before he could control his power he could see a vision of a dragon at KL he would have find the time to investigate what would happen. That scenario would create quite a twist to be back at episode 3 and based on the future they decide to execute Daenarys, maybe some characters will be killed in this new path but other would be alive at the end (Jamie 😉 ). maybe my imagination is a bit too wild..

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    97. orange:
      Ten Bears,

      I think what is most surprising to me about Jon in season 8 is the fact they have routinely described Kit as a borderline action stunt man because of how amazing he is in action scenes and with a sword. And yet, in this final season, with two massive battles, I think this is the least amount of fighting he has done in any of the battles he was part of over 7 seasons. That is really stunning to me, especially considering this is the final opportunity to take advantage of Kit’s skills.

      Maybe episode 6 will be 60 minutes of Jon sword fighting his way through the entire army of unsullied to get to Dany and Nissa Nissa her? And then 20 minutes for the rest.

      Seriously though, I too find this perplexing. Maisie was right when she said season 8 was all about the women of GOT (I’m paraphrasing, I can’t remember her exact words). Aside from possibly Jaime and Tyrion, most of the scenes are driven by the female characters and it feels like most of the male characters are getting less screen time, or meaningful screen time than usual. Jon has become a supporting character in Dany’s story and while someone will probably tell me he has a similar amount of screen time as usual, he rarely seems to be the main player in the scenes he’s in, it feels like he is there as a tool to further the female storylines (Dany, Sansa etc.); Davos has all but disappeared (I miss him so much!); Bran is only wheeled out as a plot device every now and then and then wheeled off into oblivion again; Sam all but disappeared while he was at Winterfell; Varys has not seemed like himself at all this season (he used to know everything, now he is just a shadow in the background with nothing much going on). It feels like the major players this season are Dany, Arya and Sansa. They seem to be driving the story on. I have no problem with female empowerment and a story where all the driving forces are female (as a woman and mother of two daughters, I am all about female empowerment), but in this story, it feels a bit artificial. Most of the characters above are secondary characters, so I suppose it’s natural that they get less development/to do in this rushed endgame, but Jon and Bran? They have been the lead characters in their storylines for the length of this show and now they are just unnaturally pushed aside despite being two important figures in this epic.

      It feels off. The whole thing. I hope next episode does something to make Jon and Bran characters again, rather than mere props, but I’m not hopeful to be honest.

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    98. Bronn tells Jaime and Tyrion that Cersei hired him to kill both of them… and was seconds away from killing Jaime

      Jaime and Brienne share some love, Jaime hears that Cersei had Euron kill a Rhaegal and that Euron destroyed the rest of Daenerys ships and this makes Jaime want to go back to Cersei and die in her arms?

      It was probably a lie by Cersei that she was pregnant and it was just her way to manipulate Jaime and Tyrion and they were both fools for not realizing that.

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    99. Lena in EW article: But then the actress talked over the scene with Coster-Waldau and came around to appreciating Cersei’s final moments. “The more we talked about it the more it seemed like the perfect end for her,” Headey says. “They came into the world together and now they leave together.”

      “I think the important thing is that Jaime had a chance at freedom [with Brienne] and finally liberated himself from Cersei, which I think the audience will be thrilled about,” Headey adds. “I think the biggest surprise is he came back for her. Cersei realizes just how she loves him and just how much he loves her. It’s the most authentic connection she’s ever had. Ultimately they belong together.

      I loved Jaime’s and Cersei’s moment in this episode. It was well acted on both parts and beautifully tragic. I know people are upset about Jaime and I have heard the critique about his “redemption arc” or that his character “regressed” but I don’t think that at all. I don’t think Jaime was ever asking for redemption because if he had to do it all over again, he would. Whereas someone like Theon was incredibly regretful and was looking for redemption. Jaime’s own journey to becoming a better man shouldn’t be equated with his falling out of love with Cersei. While Brienne did help him with his journey I expected him to always return to Cersei (as foreshadowed in ASOIAF as well). In Cersei’s and Jaime’s respective POVs they each think of some variation of “we entered this world together and we will leave this world together,” even after Jaime leaves her. Perhaps he will be the one that ends up killing her in ASOIAF but I expect him to stay by her side and die with her.

      Rory’s Interview:
      But I loved some of the dialogue scenes with Maisie and myself. It came at the right time when I was just starting to relax. The first couple years on the show I was very nervous all the time. And then I found the character after a couple years. Sometimes I just look in the mirror and go, “F—, there’s no reason to play scary, no wonder that little girl is frightened of me. Less Is more.”

      😊❤️😊 I too melted at the “Sandor….Thank you.” Moment.

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    100. viki,

      I thought their death scene was touching. So well acted and I also found myself feeling happy that they are able to be with each other at that moment which is super odd because of who are what they are lol. I’m gonna blame it on their superior acting skills 🙂

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    101. As to what’s next I do expect the Iron Throne to be destroyed or at least, not exist. At this point, I don’t know how that will happen or even what this could mean politically. Perhaps there will be a ruler from each of the Kingdoms to be part of a Great Council or perhaps the Great Council will be enacted to simple vote in the next ruler. Either way, I don’t expect anyone to “sit on the Iron Throne,” and hopefully, there will be more power given to the masses.

      Che,

      I will put Lena’s quote in spoiler code because when I read it in Vogue, it seemed quite spoilery: https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/female-stars-game-of-thrones-season-8-interview

      'Headey maintains that, along with Martin, it was always the producers’ plan to upend the patriarchy of Westeros. “That’s why they could shoulder all of the criticism - they knew what was coming and what they had in store for these women,” she says.' .... Just another reason why I think there won't be an Iron Throne

      I believe Maisie in the same article says the key players this season were women (and I have to agree, they have been.)

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    102. orange,

      Maybe Kit said some stuff that pissed them off? From what I’ve heard, seems they can be petty like that. Not saying it’s true but who knows. MAYBE Kit was vocal about being over the series and can’t wait for it to end and his loss of enthusiasm led to their decision to give him less to do. Or, I don’t know what kind of author is GRRM but perhaps he likes to subvert expectations in an overwhelming fashion.

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    103. Dark Sister,

      I agree, they have been, but what I find jarring is that there are male characters who seem to have been relegated to supporting characters despite being important members of the story in the past, the biggest of these being Jon. GRRM and D&D may well be trying to challenge patriarchy by having women hold all the power. That’s great and probably a natural conclusion to this story. What I find frustrating though, is that to do so, they have written two of the primary protagonists out of having a meaningful role in the story, not necessarily holding the power, but even being true to their characterisation and the story that has been built up around them. Is the point of Bran that he is just a robot now and needs to further character development? Is the point of Jon that he is just a new member of Dany’s entourage, despite the enormous secret he has found out about himself – the one person it seems to be affecting the most is Dany, which is just weird right? Why haven’t we seen Jon actually talking about how he feels about this enormous reveal to anyone? It’s as though this huge revelation has nothing to do with him and everything to do with how it effects Dany. The point I am making is suppose, is that you can still upend patriarchy and write strong female characters holding all the power without relegating a strong male character to the background. They can coexist.

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    104. Che,

      I wonder if it’s just (another) writing blunder? I feel because it wasn’t gradual that the absence of male characters was much more jarring. Perhaps they could have used season 6 as a blueprint which I feel was a much more natural and gradual shift to women becoming powerful without relegating other characters to the background (Sansa motivating Jon to help take back WF, Yara using tough love and motivating Theon, Cersei quietly then loudly taking back power, Dany recruiting the Dothraki, etc).

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    105. Renly’s Peach:
      Once again, Varys is right.Now I get why this exchange was included.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwB-FkyWZU

      I sincerely hope that he got out a scroll to someone who will come to the aid of Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya when they need it.I’m not getting my hopes up though.Ha ha!It’s a bit late for my hopes, I’d say, none of which came true.

      I had a rewatch because of Varys’s scrolls. In the first scene he has two completed scrolls on his desk and he is finishing off writing a third, some of the text is visible. Then he is interrupted by Martha. The next time we see him at his desk writing the scroll that he burns when he hears the Unsullied approaching. At that time the two completed scrolls (and presumably the third that he had completed) were no longer on his desk. Time had passed between the Martha scene and his arrest, so I took it from that that some scrolls had gone out via raven.

      Talking of scrolls, there is also the scroll Sophie Turner talks of keeping, the details of which she couldn’t reveal, as it would be a spoiler.

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    106. Renly’s Peach,

      Well, if Bran’s consciousness is permanently stuck inside Drogon, then Drogon wouldn’t be homesick and look for his mommy. He might perve into people’s bedroom windows, but he won’t miss Dany.

      I would think Bran would have to warg permanently into Drogon for Drogon’s own sake and that of civilization.

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    107. Che,

      Ugh. Jesus, it’s 2019. Where do you live that you think it’s normal to comment that male characters have been sidelined like it’s 1980?

      Every season has highlighted different characters. In this season, we saw very little of Cersei even though she was one of the two queens vying for the iron throne. What a weird comment.

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    108. Dark Sister:
      Che,

      I wonder if it’s just (another) writing blunder? I feel because it wasn’t gradual that the absence of male characters was much more jarring. Perhaps they could have used season 6 as a blueprint which I feel was a much more natural and gradual shift to women becoming powerful without relegating other characters to the background (Sansa motivating Jon to help take back WF, Yara using tough love and motivating Theon, Cersei quietly then loudly taking back power, Dany recruiting the Dothraki, etc).

      I would say the writing blunder has been the need to do it at all. Surely, if the only way female characters can be seen as strong, powerful and in charge is through a lack of strong male characters present, then it’s an artificial power? It seems more insulting to women to say that the only way we can believably see Dany, Sansa, Cersei, Arya et. al. as the ones wielding the power if we make Jon, Bran, Jaime, Tyrion et. al. into background noise? To me, keeping Jon as one of the main characters, someone who drives his own story rather than being a passenger in Dany’s, and Bran (though who the hell knows what is going o with him!) active in the story, would make seeing the female characters seize all the power much more meaningful – here we have a strong male character, who is fully fleshed out and has his own agency, and yet still he follows Dany as his queen. It just seems more convincing than making Jon repeat “You’re my queen, you will always be my queen” without ever really knowing why he feels this way or what his motivations are or indeed that he has any feelings at all.

      I fear it’s not so much a conscious choice, but yet another victim of the pacing as opposed to a ‘clear out the male characters to make way for the females’ – as evidenced by Tyrion mainly, he is still very much in his own story. He is also in Dany’s entourage, but because we have seen him exploring his feelings, being challenged, having multiple scenes with characters that aren’t Dany, we still see him as a fully fledged main character. Perhaps exploring Jon’s reaction to the bombshell of his true parentage or exploring just why he feels such allegiance to Dany would have simply taken up too much time and they went straight to how it aroused conflict and anger in Dany, because that’s what the story demanded. It just feels so false. It totally puts into perspective Sophie Turner’s words pre-season 8 – that Sansa feels Jon is thinking with his penis. In truth, he has been so flattened out, that is exactly what it seems like.

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    109. Antst:
      Che,

      Ugh.Jesus, it’s 2019.Where do you live that you think it’s normal to comment that male characters have been sidelined like it’s 1980?

      Every season has highlighted different characters.In this season, we saw very little of Cersei even though she was one of the two queens vying for the iron throne.What a weird comment.

      Every season has had primary protagonists in their own parts of the story, which have at times moved faster or slower than each other – it’s not that different characters have been given their time to shine. Dany in Essos, Arya’s many different journeys, Jon’s missions up north, Tyrion’s achievements and terrible fall, Sansa’s journey to being in control of her own destiny under no one’s thumb and Bran turning into a mystical tree god. Of these, in season 8, despite 7 seasons of set-up and development into these characters, Jon and Bran no longer feel like primary protagonists, they feel like supporting characters, their development falling flat. During the pre-season 8 interview racket, several actors said that season 8 would see women being the key players, that women would hold all the power. Game of Thrones has been lauded as a feminist story and one that challenges patriarchy. My point is that this feels like it has only been achieved by writing out male characters from prominent roles, which in the end, feels like a false case of female empowerment. As I mention in the comment above this one, it is probably due to the time constraints they placed on themselves this season – they probably don’t have time to explore the consequences of Sam’s revelation on Jon ad focused more on how to drive the story forward, which is the consequences that this news has on Dany. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that it feels too jarring to be a convincing portrayal of upending patriarchy and as far as storytelling goes, it is jarring to have characters suddenly go from being enriched primary protagonists, to just flat tools in others’ storylines.

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    110. Pigeon,

      Did you see the Funny or Die Monty Python – Tyrion mashup posted by “Pip” on May 13 at 11:10 pm under “Written Recap Roundup”? I’m still chuckling.

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    111. Che,

      I think that the treatment of Jon is probably the most disappointing aspect of these past two seasons.

      The guy who broke all the rules, constantly risked his life and did some groundbreaking and occasionally pretty dishonorable things to defend The Wall and then save the lives of the Wildlings has apparently been reduced to a passive milksop, just going along with the crowd and repeating variations of “she is my queen” as the world collapses around him.

      I truly believe that this story would have been far better served if Jon had been an active participant in surreptitiously controlling Dany’s behaviour all along.

      If he had known what she was capable of, but was using everything he had learnt over the seasons to try to manipulate her towards the right choices; to protect The North, to protect his family and to protect the Seven Kingdoms.

      And then the parentage reveal could’ve been a genuine spanner in the works, not just a one-sided plot device to make Dany paranoid and Jon no longer want to make out for more than a few seconds. And Dany’s paranoia would’ve been founded in a genuine sense of betrayal and lack of trust.

      But just like Tyrion’s descent into painful passivity the moment he entered Dany’s storyline and the endless one-note repetition of hollow phrases about “building a better world” and so on, Jon has been sold short in order to prop Dany up until the last minute twist.

      I think the depiction of Dany’s downfall would’ve been aided if she hadn’t been surrounded by such baselessly fawning characters. Perhaps the viewers that find Dany’s actions so unfathomable would’ve been more clued in had all these characters they trust not continued to insist that she was the saviour regardless of what she did.

      They sprinkled doubts and recriminations throughout the past few seasons. More than enough for people to get the general picture. But these characters (Tyrion, Varys, Jon) would’ve been better served had they been playing a more active role in conveying the doubts about Daenerys.

      Leave the mindless fawning to Jorah, who we knew was blinded by love, and Grey Worm and Missandei, both of whom have good reason to only see Dany’s virtues. And let the cynical, world-weary characters that have always risked their lives to do what’s best for the Seven Kingdoms stay true to their characters; instead of making them needlessly passive until their last minute epiphanies when it’s potentially too late to redeem their characters.

      Jon and Tyrion are both effectively complicit in Dany’s mass murder. How are they supposed to come back from that?

      I suppose Ned would have been guilty by association in the crimes committed during Robert’s Rebellion and still went on to be a decent and honourable lord, whose virtues we all appreciated. But we didn’t watch Ned acting heroic and developing as a character for 6/7 seasons before Robert’s Rebellion, only to watch him become a passive patsy to Robert at the end (“If the King got what he wanted all the time, we’d still be fighting a damned rebellion”).

      And we’re unlikely to see Jon (or Tyrion) 20 years after these events, after the dust has long settled and their true characters have shone through. No, we risk being left with the taste of their relegation to insipid, one-dimensional supporting characters for the conclusion of a story they once were at the forefront of.

      I swear, if they depict Jon or Tyrion showing any hint of love or loyalty for Dany after this, or needing cajoling into action by Arya or Sansa, then they will have killed the characters stone dead, whether or not they actually end the series as corpses.

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    112. ygritte,

      My personal opinion is that the Lord of Light resurrected Strickland’s horse. The little girl who was incinerated with her mother had a white horse toy, mirroring Shireen’s sacrifice. I got a strong “only death can pay for life” and blood magic vibe from that.

      But that’s only my opinion right now. It was unusual for the Strickland’s horse to get so much screen time when it was killed, then the white horse toy… seems to fit.

      I also think Arya was resurrected at least once. She had a moment that reminded me of Jon’s resurrection, with the sudden gasp and the disorientation.

      About the horse, part of me wants to think Sandor had a part in it, since they had a scene about her wanting a horse. No basis in the story for that of course.

      Anyway, we had Brego in LotR rescue Aragorn after his near death. Aragorn of course had an important destiny to fulfill. We also had the white horse Shadowfax, Lord of the Horses in LotR but that’s another angle.

      Off the cuff, if the white horse dies when the leave the city, it’s destiny was fulfilled.

      Sorry for the ramble.

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    113. ShameShameShame,

      But the horse has a different bridle. It may have lost its saddle somehow, but would it have a different bridle? If it was meant to be the same horse, wouldn’t they ensure it had the same bridle? The one HS’s horse wears has a leather section up the middle towards the ears and it has gold rings. The one Arya comes across has silver rings and no leather section going from above the nose towards the ears. The horse looks the same, but that may be that they chose the same horse performer – maybe they have very few white ones and they wanted it to be this beautiful hopeful scene for Arya. In terms of symbolism, white horses have a significance.

      Also, we have only ever seen the lord of light work through red priests and priestesses before now. Jon wasn’t resurrected by the LoL working alone, Mel had to be the go between. Same with Beric and Thoros. Same with Mel setting things on fire. If Arya was being resurrected, wouldn’t that be made clear?

      To me, it seems that if there was a supernatural reason for the horse being there, that it was essential for her to complete her destiny, then Bran warring into it and bringing it to her side seems more fitting.

      I think the resurrecting gun has already been fired with Jon (after it was hung by Beric). We have seen what Beric’s purpose was, now we are yet to see what Jon was brought back for. It loses meaning if more characters start being brought back from death before the others that have been resurrected have even served their purpose yet.

      And lastly, isn’t Arya magical and special enough already that if she has yet one more supernatural “special” quality added to her, she will start to become a bit of a cliche?

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    114. Che,

      I guess we’ll see.

      Davos, at the WF feast after the LN, questioned whether the Lord of Light was done with them. I choose not to believe that the writer’s wasted valuable character time on that question, and that it meant there was more to come.

      Connecting Davos’ question with Shireen’s burnt toy and then the little girl’s burnt toy…

      Like I said, I guess we’ll see.

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    115. ShameShameShame:
      Che,

      I guess we’ll see.

      Davos, at the WF feast after the LN, questioned whether the Lord of Light was done with them.I choose not to believe that the writer’s wasted valuable character time on that question, and that it meant there was more to come.

      Connecting Davos’ question with Shireen’s burnt toy and then the little girl’s burnt toy…

      Like I said, I guess we’ll see.

      It’s so interesting how we all see such different things in this show. No wonder everyone is so divided.

      I took that conversation to mean that we were done with the LoL and Davos and Tyrion’s conversation was to put a full stop on the matter. If it weren’t brought up at all, people would wonder why it was never mentioned again, yet there we have Davos, glum and despondent, lamenting that we never really knew what the lord of light was about.

      And the child’s burnt toy to me was to make it clear that particular burnt corpse was the little girl Arya had tried to save. A bit hard to have signpost corpses another way. Having a distinguishable item seems a clear way and a child holding a toy, the most obvious.

      I don’t doubt Arya will be important next episode – all her build up and the shot of her in the preview prove that. Personally, I think we may be done with the lord of light now, sadly, as I mirror Davos’ frustration. What was he all about?

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    116. Che,

      “And lastly, isn’t Arya magical and special enough already that if she has yet one more supernatural “special” quality added to her, she will start to become a bit of a cliche?”

      _____
      Yes, you’re right. She’s already approaching superhero stature. Let her bask in her existing awesomeness. No need for more divine assistance. (And you know how much I love Arya.)

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    117. ShameShameShame,

      I also posted about something more to Arya’s survival than merely “plot armor,” however I didn’t catch that the horse was Harry Strickland’s if that was indeed supposed to be the same horse. But there is something fantastical about Arya survivng all that. I’m not entirely sure she was being revived but I do think she did not burn when she should have. She too was engulfed in flames but when she awoke, everything was ash or charred yet she only had the physical injuries she suffered. I mean the magic of the faceless men also stemmed from Old Valyria to escape dragonlords sooo…. Definitely something more going on and I am intrigued.

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    118. Che,

      Maybe Shireen’s life paid for Arya’s, in the end. Davos may make that connection. Poignant to consider, since we all believe Shireen’s death was for naught.

      I’m one of those people who thinks RLJ is based on one of the most overused tropes in all fantasy, believe me I’m not trying to intentionally overpower Arya. I’m just connecting the dots.

      By the way… we know Jon Snow was resurrected for a reason, that we don’t know what yet. Maybe we’ll FINALLY see Jon Snow’s purpose thanks to the LoL. I might even then begrudgingly admire RLJ as an upended trope that added real meaning to the story.

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    119. I just realized … I don’t envy the WoW staff for the number of Curtain Calls resulting from this last episode.

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    120. Dark Sister,

      Great connection with the FMs and the dragonlords, DarkSister. Also connects to Arya’s alterego Nymeria, who lead survivors away from the dragonlords. Arya had a hint of that scene during the conflagration of the city.

      Jaqen reminds Arya often about the balance of life and death. It’s not over-armoring Arya for that to be central to her story.

      I also noticed that the camera lingered on the heavily charred buildings right before we see Arya laying still, then gasping.

      Maisie said in an interview it looks like Arya’s dead but no, this is Game of Thrones

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    121. orange,

      Maybe next episode the first half is defeating Dany and the last 40 minutes will be rebuilding Westeros. Maybe we even see a time skip of 20 30 years.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      What if Daario comes back and say something like: what have you become my love? This is not you, this is not who you are

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    122. ShameShameShame:
      Che,

      Maybe Shireen’s life paid for Arya’s, in the end.Davos may make that connection.Poignant to consider, since we all believe Shireen’s death was for naught.

      I’m one of those people who thinks RLJ is based on one of the most overused tropes in all fantasy, believe me I’m not trying to intentionally overpower Arya.I’m just connecting the dots.

      By the way… we know Jon Snow was resurrected for a reason, that we don’t know what yet. Maybe we’ll FINALLY see Jon Snow’s purpose thanks to the LoL.I might even then begrudgingly admire RLJ as an upended trope that added real meaning to the story.

      I think that part of the issue many are having with season 8 is that the makers of the show are going for spectacle over depth. They’ve always had issues with main characters surviving impossible odds (Jon in BOB being missed by thousands of arrows for example), but it seems like in episode 3 and in this episode, they went a little overboard with the perilous situations the named characters managed to survive.

      In the Inside the Episode piece they said they wanted to focus on the victims of the attack rather than the ‘heroes’ doing the damage. They said that following nameless extras for tens of minutes wouldn’t have been meaningful, so they said they would do it from the perspective of someone we love. They chose Arya – a decent choice seeing as she is the only one who went that far into the city who survived. Sh had to travel a long way back to safety. By making that choice, to have us following one of our beloved characters through that devastation, they unwittingly gave her Valyrian steel plot armour. I see why they did it. Having us follow Arya was much more meaningful than spending 12 minutes (apparently the length of her survival struggled) following people we don’t know. However, it does make her surviving it all seem implausible and leads to clamours of ‘plot armour! shame!’ or spurns on a multitude of theories.

      We in the fandom love to theorise and I love reading all the theories, so I am in no way saying don’t try to connect dots or don’t try to find meaning in the spectacle-driven choices the show runners are taking, I just disagree on this one, so thought I’d enter the discussion.

      I think the biggest reason I disagree is that there has been no build up to the Lord of Light acting on his own and, more importantly perhaps, the two horses are wearing different bridles.

      As you say though, we’ll see. It seems I’m wrong about everything in GOT lately!!

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    123. Che,

      It’s all good, I’m still holding out hope that GRRM will confirm some of my favorite theories that the show obviously had no time to address…

      As for the bridle, it looks the same to me except for the color. When I watched one of the BTI’s they showed some of the effects added during processing, one of which was desaturation. The bright red blood in the “behind the episode” is no where near the same vibrant color in the finished reel for example. The horse also has a distinctive mark on it’s nose. Did GoT just use the same horse? No clue. There were plenty of other horses on set, for them to linger on three white horses that in the end have no connection?

      Eh, I’ll stop beating that one, it’s dead.

      As for the BoB, it was one of the many “drowned and then resurrected” motifs we’ve seen throughout the show. Jon “drowns” in a flood of people, then emerges and gasps. Anyway.

      I have my suspicions about Jon’s importance, and Arya’s importance, in regards to RLJ but it’s far beyond bittersweet.

      As an aside, flashback Lyanna was also riding a white horse in Winterfell and damn if it’s not the same bridle, except for some additional straps.

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    124. BURN IT ALL. The way everything was written the past two seasons that is how I feel. BURN IT ALL. If only the white walkers could could back and KILL THEM ALL. F IT.

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    125. Jenny,

      I am not sure what Bran wanted from Jaime when he spoke with under the weirwood tree. Maybe Bran saved him for his purpose to give Brienne children – maybe twins for repeating timeline or someone to be the next 3ERaven. No idea really, none of this makes sense. Maybe just bad writing.

      I really hope Brienne is not pregnant but you know that old consolation prize in these kinds of stories and the dead guy leaves something behind. Maybe that is why NCW was OK. I also think there was a casting call for twin children – so perhaps we see a time jump if they go with this tired trope. I hope not!

      But for years NCW campaigned for Jaime leaving Cersei – every interview he spoke about it and his discussions with D&D. Of course, he was always careful to say he was only the actor and they make the decisions. You notice he was always paired with Gwen in his publicity work. He took to trouble write his own little play for a character like Jaime that he performed in readings with Gwen. That is how much he wanted Jaime to leave. He loved his character.

      NCW is doing some Cons and so will speak eventually. I am sure he will be upbeat as he has been – this made him rich! He interviewed after the Knighting episode to say it was an act of love.

      At the end of the last episode, he tweeted a warm thank you to Lena. He tweeted an article by James Hibberd at EW. Nothing further. All the others have interviewed. It is odd that he has not yet as he was in it since the pilot. I am beginning to think he may not interview soon. He is currently on set for a different movie. Maybe we will wait to for the Emmy promotional work – he will be saying happy things as he works on winning. He did an excellent job with his character – no matter how he felt.

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    126. ShameShameShame:
      Dark Sister,

      Great connection with the FMs and the dragonlords, DarkSister.Also connects to Arya’s alterego Nymeria, who lead survivors away from the dragonlords.Arya had a hint of that scene during the conflagration of the city.

      Jaqen reminds Arya often about the balance of life and death.It’s not over-armoring Arya for that to be central to her story.

      I also noticed that the camera lingered on the heavily charred buildings right before we see Arya laying still, then gasping.

      I had to check that Maisie is listed for the next episode and was happy to say that she is listed. A pale mare is a symbol of death so I did not know what to think when she got on that horse. I hope this is just a random horse she was able to ride away on. Maybe she will end up back at Jaquen as she said she would never return to WF.

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    127. Mango,

      I have a suspicion that Brienne is indeed pregnant, I see no other reason to have them sleep together, they undid it all in 30 minutes and it felt sooo weird. I know Jaime is not what we can call a ‘good guy’, but he would not treat Brienne like that, ever, I just don’t believe it. The speed of the episode made it feel like a one night stand and then off he went, when they were together for weeks. I saw some people say that he slept with her out of pity… pity! omg that hurt to read. Jaime would never.

      The knighting scene was the perfect declaration of love (which I do indeed think is romantic) and Brienne would still have been broken hearted at his decision to leave. She knew he was off to die because he hated himself and couldn’t let himself be happy, going back to Cersei was easier than facing the guilt he felt over his actions. It’s tragic, and maybe that is what NCW liked? As an actor he might have enjoyed the challenge, but otherwise, I don’t get it. He took the role because of his ‘redemption arc’ and fought for Jaime to leave Cersei, they even gave him the storyboard for the bath scene as a gift, that story was so important to NCW, and he’s happy? I can’t wait to hear more.

      The lack of an interview is making my fangirl ass hope he isn’t dead. Why am I doing this to myself? lol. Maaaybe Bran talks to Brienne to give her closure, and he appears in a vision of some kind? He’s dead but he is in the episode? or a Mad King flashback when they are discussing Dany?

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    128. ShameShameShame,
      Did GoT just use the same horse?

      That’s probably exactly what happened, but also for the symbolism that comes with a white horse. I do like the connection to Lyanna Stark as well.

      – – – –
      On a somewhat related note, I found out that the woman who played the mother in King’s Landing, who sadly did not survive, was played by Laura Elphinstone. I looked her up after I recognised her during the Chernobyl premiere on HBO. By the way, the first two episodes of that show are out and it is FANTASTIC! Maester Luwin/Donald Sumpter also has a small role.

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    129. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Che,

      I think that the treatment of Jon is probably the most disappointing aspect of these past two seasons.

      The guy who broke all the rules, constantly risked his life and did some groundbreaking and occasionally pretty dishonorable things to defend The Wall and then save the lives of the Wildlings has apparently been reduced to a passive milksop, just going along with the crowd and repeating variations of “she is my queen” as the world collapses around him.

      I truly believe that this story would have been far better served if Jon had been an active participant in surreptitiously controlling Dany’s behaviour all along.

      If he had known what she was capable of, but was using everything he had learnt over the seasons to try to manipulate her towards the right choices; to protect The North, to protect his family and to protect the Seven Kingdoms.

      ^^^^^ALL OF THIS^^^^^

      Jon and Tyrion, as characters, have been so disappointing these least two seasons.

      I really though that when Sansa admonished Jon in early season 7, to be smarter than his father and brother (actually uncle and cousin), that we were in for exactly that…a tense and complex political tighrope walk by Jon. Instead, we got lovesick Jon – ugh, how many different male characters have we had to watch become stupidly infatuated with Dany? And Tyrion went from clever to completely inept.

      Really, really sorry that they decided to go these routes with these characters. No offense to all the Jon/Dany fans out there, but I just never bought their epic (incest) romance. And I could only slow clap Sansa’s line to Tyrion in 8×01: ” I used to think you were the cleverest man alive.” Me too, Sansa. Me too 🙁

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    130. Jenny,

      Yes, I know. I know.

      Not dead? Lena interviewed and indicated they were dead. But you cannot trust actors in these things. I think she was happy her character got a dignified death. And I think NCW was happy to do that as well for Lena. I think they both died.

      I was stunned that they had him try to sneak out. Jaime is many things but not a coward. How they fit that with dignity of the knighting event between these two that just occurred is a mystery. It is things like these that the critics point to as inconsistent. D&D was just being nasty at that point. NCW did his job but considering his discussions with D&D about this relationship, I wondered how he felt.

      As to the pity sex, yes, I have seen that too. And also that sex was terrible. Brienne is a noble, brave, good person that is not seen as physically attractive and who has insecurities because of it. She has been laughed at by men. She also made unusual career decisions for a female. This is why you see these hurtful comments.

      I feel for her female fans that see themselves in Brienne that Jaime was seen to try to ghost her and then to see comments that it was pity sex or bad sex. (In that case, I hope if she is pregnant, I hope NCW interviews and speak about Jaime & Brienne.) Many good messages would have come from a decent love story for Brienne in GOT. Instead, we have snickering about pity sex.

      I know many think that a good career story in which she basically remains a gloried security guard writing in the LC book about Jaime is a beautiful end. It is not. It is just a sad end for a good woman. But the GOT ending looks dark so I suppose it works.

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    131. Mango,

      I don’t think she ever will return to WF.

      I thought I might be reading too much into the scenes in the Map Room in ep5, but debris falls on the two important places on the map, in the vicinity of WF and KL.

      Later when Cersei is in the map room, the map/floor fractures, which was also portentious and gave my observation during the Arya/Sandor scene some weight. A fractured Kingdom, KL destroyed…

      Like Varys said, I hope I’m wrong. Despite D&D buffooning a lot of details, I’d like to think that some were intelligent and will be revealed as easter-eggy in the end, much like GRRM’s story.

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    132. Mango: Maybe she will end up back at Jaquen as she said she would never return to WF.

      Going back to the HoBaW/FM and killing people for a price isn’t something I’d want for her. I’m hoping she has or will dig herself out of that “hole” inside and can live happy and free of any vengeful hate inside.

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    133. Clob: Going back to the HoBaW/FM and killing people for a price isn’t something I’d want for her.I’m hoping she has or will dig herself out of that “hole” inside and can live happy and free of any vengeful hate inside.

      I hope so too!

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    134. Dark Sister:
      ShameShameShame,
      Did GoT just use the same horse?

      That’s probably exactly what happened, but also for the symbolism that comes with a white horse. I do like the connection to Lyanna Stark as well.
      – – – –
      On a somewhat related note, I found out that the woman who played the mother in King’s Landing, who sadly did not survive, was played by Laura Elphinstone. I looked her up after I recognised her during the Chernobyl premiere on HBO. By the way, the first two episodes of that show are out and it is FANTASTIC! Maester Luwin/Donald Sumpter also has a small role.

      Chernobyl is excellent so far! I didn’t recognize the actress, you’ve got a good eye.

      On an odder note, I immediate thought of Elfstones when you mentioned Elphinstone, which ironically or not, considering the context of our conversation here at WotW, reminds me of the absolutely butchered MTV version of Terry Brooks’ brilliant Shannara series. I don’t recommend it.

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    135. ShameShameShame: reminds me of the absolutely butchered MTV version of Terry Brooks’ brilliant Shannara series. I don’t recommend it.

      Yeah, that was awful! I think it was even worse than if CW had done it.

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    136. Mango:
      Jenny,

      Yes, that is an idea.

      Maybe Bran will speak with Brienne for closure.

      They may also go for another trope where he leaves his sword or some other crap in her room. Or a letter or some crap like that. Or turns up as a ghost. I cringe.

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    137. It’s so totally okay to have opinions and we all do, but I must say that for me there’s a very sad part of me that will miss this show. For an hour (or a minute more) once a week, once a year I lost myself in a beautiful fantasy. At times I might not have agreed with how the show went down, but in the end, I would not have traded a moment of GOT. It’s been a great ride and one I’ll never forget.

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    138. I figured out the end, pretty certain of it too. The clues were there all along.

      At the end of LotR, all magic leaves the world of men.

      In GRRMs world, they tried for centuries to thwart magic, the Wall was built to keep out Ice Magic, and even then the Ice Magic almost won until it was utterly destroyed.

      Now they need to end Fire Magic. Utterly.

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    139. Mango,

      lol, something like that. He apparently got paid for 6 episodes because he turned up at the end of episode 1, and he is probably playing a dead body in episode 6.

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    140. I just want to know what happened to the Vulcan handmaiden, Bernadette. Did she make it out alive!? Her first appearance was in S2 so if not I think Sara Dylan should get a curtain call too! 😉

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    141. ShameShameShame,

      Yes. The title of the series wasn’t about Ice and Fire being in opposition to each other, but both being destruction. GRRM described “The threats from the North and from the East” in his original outline for the series. Both the Others and the dragons were seen as destruction.

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    142. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      welp, the code is cracked.

      The shire will be scoured of magic, Frodarya will sail to Valinor, and Samwellwise will record the events in the Book of Westerosmarch.

      And I guess Drogon will be destroyed in Mount Doom.

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    143. Mango:
      Jenny,

      Yes, that is an idea.

      Maybe Bran will speak with Brienne for closure.

      I hope someone does. I don’t want to think she was used exclusively for Jaime’s end story, since she’s such a complex character-fragile and awkward and strong, determined and beautifully brave.
      After knowing about her past, after the mockery about her and the pensive post-sex screenshots of Jaime-how sad would it be that she’s left like that after all these years of build up and promise?
      Other than Arya, she’s my favorite female character on the show and she deserves so much better.

      Also it may sound backward and not remotely feminist, and I know she’s a warrior not a lady, but I’d be okay if she were pregnant. Someone should be repopulating this war torn, devastated world. Plus it would give Bran a reason for emphasizing Jaime’s importance in the endgame and why he wanted him to stick around, since I’m not seeing it atm.

      …oh, unless losing Jaime is what makes Tyrion do something that he wouldn’t otherwise to insure the wheel is finally broken.
      Jaime=only pawn in game of life.
      3ER is kind of a dick at this point. Just sayin’

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    144. RG,

      Well, you never know.

      The show has spent a lot of time on the shame for children born out of wedlock. So while Brienne may be happy to have something of the man she has loved so long, it may be hard on the kids. Maybe they emphasized Tyrion discussion of Jaime sex life in that crude conversation and Jaime’s help to Tyrion as a child to set up Tyrion as helping as a good uncle. But for all we know Tyrion will be burnt soon.

      Plus there is still the spectre of ugly girl left knocked up from pity sex!

      Oh well.

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    145. this episode hit me like a train, on many levels. it delivered everything i did not want GoT to deliver because i simply lacked the imagination of how great it could be: Cleganebowl (bah, big guys clobbing each other with swords, so what?), “Mad” Queen (nooo, c’mon, she’s capable of reasonable thoughts like few others!) and Jamie returning to Cersei (after Bronn’s visit to the brothers at WF, i was 100+% sure Jamie’s words to Brienne announced him to kill Cersei: “she’s a hateful person… and so am i”)

      they delivered all of this, and all of this made this episode so not-of-this-planet great. because they added so much emotion and depth to the scenes. more on this when i come to the characters and how they end. before, i want to mention some things that also contributed to this episode being one of the best things i ever saw.

      it starts with the title. hell, did we all suffer title predictions from trivia-land, didn’t we? and some of the episode titles they picked then were not too far above the predicted ones.
      “the bells” made my ears ring in anticipation of really bad things to happen. as it has always been when the bells of KL rang… or just fell to the ground. the sound of bells is the sound of disaster in GoT. and the bells were right.

      then i have to mention the set. especially how they worked with height. Cersei finally started having more than two facial expressions the closer she came to the basement and the sublevels. Sandor started his attack on Gregor from below. Dany had her nervous breakdown above all those on the ground to whom she passed seemingly everything bad that ever happened to her – without any reason to fear consequences. height was dominance in this episode.

      finally, there’s the music. this time it was perfect. so fucking perfect that i think the annoying parts of previous episode scores just had to pave the way for this masterpiece.

      this said, here’s how hard the fates of the mentioned characters hit my stock of handkerchiefs.

      VARYS: surprisingly not too much. his mission of switching the rulers has shown to be sort of suicidal-if-needed for a while. noteable for me was where the execution took place: at a beach on Dragonstone. people have been burned alive there before, and the episode is so kind to double this reference to it’s early times later on…

      SANDOR: did i fucking hate the idea of two big guys hammering each other in a revenge fury. and hell, did the show make right this one of the most touching and multi-layered death scenes ever!!
      Sandor’s last words to Arya and her response broke my heart, and i don’t even have a heart. but the two phases of the fight of the brothers were too much then.

      a start as swordy as expected. Sandor drills another hole into his brother… who does not give a shit, slaps his little brother some meters down the stairs – and changes the rules.
      if having Arya sent back to life gave Sandor a little bit of happiness, now it’s Gregor’s time to be happy in his evil way. i’m serious: this undead pile of meat is not only capable of being insulted (ask Euron) or stubborn (ask what’s left of Qyburn) – he is also always into happily reliving the games of his childhood.

      phase two of the fight is two adult monsters replaying their childhood relationship 1:1. with a helpless Sandor in tears (really!) and his big brother being the one who actually plays and enjoys it. in the end though, Sandor ends House Clegane. and now the Lord of Light is done with him as well: Arya has taken out one undead monster, he has taken out the other.

      EURON: what a dumbass! he might have had chances to survive if he had pretended still being loyal to Cersei, followed Jamie and then quit and run when the time seemed to be right. that would just have needed using his brain instead of his balls for thinking.
      so, he was even wrong when dying. he is not the man who killed Jamie Lannister. he was just another king… dumbass!

      JAMIE & CERSEI: it’s been years since i had the feels for Cersei, but this time she brought me to tears. i mentioned that aspect of facial expression. for some seasons it seemed to me i saw a piece of styrofoam painted as Cersei when she was in her well known “i have VIP tickets for this massacre” position in the Red Keep.
      here, she lost more and more of her mask until she was ready to be a complete emotional wreck in the basement. on that famous map on the ground.

      this map has been a nice background for Arya and Sandor before. now it’s perfect for Jamie and Cersei. “there’s debris coming down in the west, there’s debris coming down in the east etc…”
      they look for an escape at the bottom of it all, the foundation of the fortress their actual enemy has built. with all the skulls of their enemy’s glorious past around them while one of these skulls is right now sending the keep that has never been taken down onto their own skulls.

      in the end, Jamie has come back to help her dying like the human being she is underneath that thick layer of monster paint. she has been driven into this role by circumstances and her intellectual, emotional or strategic limits in dealing with them. just like the new ruling (?) monster…

      DANY: she’s been through quite a lot of violence, treason, loss, fear and all that before she joined Jon’s war against the undead. since then, the tragedies came in at a faster pace. thanklessness by those she helped saving was just added.
      how much can a person take before losing it all and breaking down? for her, the bells were the sound of a revenge taken from her. and this may have been her last logic thought before she went on her burn-them-all-flight that was probably (!) just done with a probably shocked Cersei in the back of what was left of her mind then.

      if she doesn’t get her mind back next episode and stays on this road: nothing speaks against this, as she might be the most hated person in Westeros now. if she does get her mind back, i expect… mmmm… drama.

      FINAL ONE: a burned toy horse is always a reason for someone to want to kill a powerful person. sorry Sandor, Arya is not yet done with this revenge thing, but you did your best.
      (may next weekend put this guessing of mine into the bin!)

        Quote  Reply

    146. Jenny,

      Actually Jenny, Lena’s interview said it is the perfect ending for Cersei, they came in the world together and would leave together. She actually did not say that it was the perfect ending for them or that Jaime died. That leave a little wiggle room for your fan girl ass.

      But I am content to consider Jaime dead unless Ep 6 show him as otherwise. Once he went back to help her, the odds were against him – big time!

        Quote  Reply

    147. ShameShameShame,

      But what about Bran and the other wargs in the North? Do they simply lose their powers? What about the Old Gods? Can magic really be eradicated forever? I mean the dragons went extinct, until Daenerys had faith that she could bring them back. Or were they just brought back by the Gods to serve a purpose?

        Quote  Reply

    148. I know the post for video recaps isn’t up yet, but I just watched ozzy man’s review.
      Was Varys trying to poison Daenerys? 😱

      With everything else that went on in this episode I hadn’t given the scene of Varys with his little bird any thought.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Jenny,

      And yes, the lack of a NCW interview is highly unusual.

      Every dead character has done media interviews – yet this gaping silence from NCW. He has been in it since the pilot.

      Maybe ain’t dead? Hmmm.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Danny:
      ShameShameShame,

      But what about Bran and the other wargs in the North?Do they simply lose their powers?What about the Old Gods?Can magic really be eradicated forever?I mean the dragons went extinct, until Daenerys had faith that she could bring them back.Or were they just brought back by the Gods to serve a purpose?

      I think show!Bran is the last skinchanger/warg, but frankly I’m torn on how this wraps up for him. We’ll probably find he’s been very busy during his space-outs however.

      But overall yes, I think the whole point is that all magic needs to be destroyed in order to give humanity a fair chance moving forward.

      In LotR, even the “good” magic left the world once the bad was destroyed. How this is implemented in the finale of GoT remains to be seem I suppose!

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    151. ShameShameShame: I think show!Bran is the last skinchanger/warg, but frankly I’m torn on how this wraps up for him.We’ll probably find he’s been very busy during his space-outs however.

      But overall yes, I think the whole point is that all magic needs to be destroyed in order to give humanity a fair chance moving forward.

      In LotR, even the “good” magic left the world once the bad was destroyed.How this is implemented in the finale of GoT remains to be seem I suppose!

      I wouldn’t take the LOTR as a template for what is going to happen at the end of GOT. Firstly, because GRRM often seems inspired to write things very differently from Tolkien. Secondly, there is a lot more magic in this story than was in the LOTR and they don’t have enough time to wrap it up. Green dreams and wargs may still be out there – there is nothing to say they’re not. There may be some among the wildlings that survived (they must be common because Ygritte was amazed Jon had never heard of a warg) or among the small folk of the north as they are descended from the first men. Jojen was a green seer, so there are likely more out there. Then there are the faceless men – they use their own sort of magic to use someone’s face to actually become that person. We also have the priests and priestesses of R’hllor – they perform acts of magic and see futures in the flames using the red god’s magic and I doubt we’re going to see the end of ‘him’ next week (unless the crazy theory that Bran is the LOL pans out -I doubt it though). The weir wood trees themselves have a magic to them if people are susceptible to it and there are still plenty of them north of the wall. Then there’s the spells woven into the Wall. How did they get there? Can more spells be made? There is so much magic in this story beyond Dragons and Ice monsters – much more magic than LOTR ever had. It would be impossible to wrap it all up next week.

      I also don’t think GRRM (and therefore D&D) are going to give us a neat ending in this story that ties up lots of loose ends beginning a new era for Westerosi-kind. I fear that this is more ‘real’ than that and that much of Westeros and the world will just carry on as normal at the end. It would feel a lot less satisfying to think the wheel hasn’t been broken, that people will continues this endless cycle of violence and destruction again and again every few hundred years… who knows, maybe the NK or some form of Others will reappear in the far north? Maybe that threat will never, ever be gone. I worry the ending to this story isn’t going to feel like an ending.

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    152. Che,

      All good points.

      No I don’t think LotR is a template, despite GRRMs very vocal love for it, I was using it as an example of magic being all or nothing, so to speak.

      Unlike Tolkein, to GRRM magic is a grey area, in the end, I think the issue with ASoIaF is that the good is indistinguishable from the bad. I said somewhere that MMD is actually a hero for stopping Dany from breeding, though we all despised her for that act. And the act of burning Shireen, I believe, will have deep meaning in the end although it was an evil act. Dany was seen as a savior, instead she’s a deadly nuclear weapon. Anyway, yes… it all has to go.

      Whether that’s GRRMs pacifism coming out or something else… would our own planet be safer without nukes? There would still be ugliness, but the likelihood of humanity-ending events (caused by humans) would diminish for sure. Even with treaties and safeguards, there is always the risk of an accident… or of a madman going rogue.

      Although I hope we’ll get some closure with some of the mysteries, we got screwed because they decided to hold back some answers for the prequel – which is now called Bloodmoon tentatively and just started filming.

      As an aside, they completely screwed up the new Tolkien bio movie. His faith was central to his view of the world as good/evil. GRRM also had a Catholic upbringing which is blatantly evident as an influence in ASoIaF. So although I know LotR is not the template, I know GRRM treats his influences with great respect while honing them with his screenwriters hand to create an exciting and new version of the story. We would not have GoT without LotR.

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    153. My new theory is that Branmotron is the evil one. He warged Daenerys and made her make Drogon burn the city. Sansa is going to figure it out, kill him and free Daenerys from his control just in time and they all live happily ever after. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    154. Che,

      Isn’t there in the books Pete (a faceless man in the citadel) who is trying to destroy magic, something with a black candle.

      as for lotr I hope the final will have this feeling for victory and emotion:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C8SX0mWP0

      Frodo: I can’t do this, Sam.
      Sam: I know. It’s all wrong. By rights we shouldn’t even be here. But we are. It’s like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy. How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back only they didn’t. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something.
      Frodo: What are we holding on to, Sam?
      Sam: That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.

      And of course the ending. Where Sam needed to learn to let go of losing Frodo, but that his story will continue and that he needs to be happy.

      What if Arya gives in to Gendry now, on condition that she is not a Lady just his wife, she will hunt etc and nobody is going to stop her.

      What if magic really dies and Bran becomes himself again. He could become lord of winterfell

      Sansa become the queen with Tyrion.
      Jon lives out his life with Thormund and Ghost, but visit WF a lot.
      Sam become warden of the reach. (Sorry Bronn no castle for you)

      Crackpot theory 1: We need to see the Eyrie, maybe it’s important for the defeat of Dany.
      Crackpot theory 2: To stop Dany we need to put a dragonglass shard in her heart. She is being contained by magic north of the wall, which will be rebuild. Jon will become Lord Commander again. And history repeat itself. Or maybe Jon does it to himself so he can take out the dragon.

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    155. Clob:
      My new theory is that Branmotron is the evil one.He warged Daenerys and made her make Drogon burn the city.Sansa is going to figure it out, kill him and free Daenerys from his control just in time and they all live happily ever after.😉

      He makes his own kind of TV shows 😉

        Quote  Reply

    156. On another post, I said that the whole point of Jaime’s story in the books is his slow separation from Cercei, but thinking about it later, it occurred to me that isn’t really true – that’s half his story, but the other half is his learning how to lead. Tyrion thinks of him at some point as someone who has always run away from power (in sharp contrast to Cercei and Tyrion himself), and I think it is interesting that although he doesn’t seem to crave power any more by the end of what we have of his story as of ADWD than he ever did, we have seen him slowly accept the mantel of leadership. This happens first in King’s Landing, where he refuses to take up the mantle of Tywin’s heir, insisting on staying in the Kingsguard and doing a responsible job as Commander of the Kingsguard, despite the fact that he did not ask for the job and didn’t want it, and then in the Riverlands, where he resolves the situation there as fairly as he can, although with enough self-sabotage and imperfection that he still feels like himself.

      I bring this up just because it is sad to me that this is so little a part of his story on the show and he is so much in Cercei’s shadow that while people have talked about Jaime’s loss of character development in the context of his relationship with Cercei, the loss of his growth as a responsible leader and someone who is slowly beginning to command respect that is more for him than just because of his association with the Lannister name has not even really been mentioned at all. Maybe given where ADWD ends, this won’t ultimately be important in the books, if they ever come out, but I really hope it will!

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    157. I’m anxious to see Daenerys’ face for the first time in the finale. It’s bugging me that we didn’t get a close-up of her during the barbecue (for understandable dramatic purpose) nor in the preview as she’s walking. Is she going to have her normal look we’ve seen of her when she’s standing in front of “subjects?” I’ve been picturing her changed in some way after the dragon has been awoken with dark eyes and evil looking. Maybe she’ll appear sort of Maleficent-ish or something… 😛

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    158. Clob,

      Why are you using my phone?!☺️

      FYI: For some reason it looks like I can edit your comment or request deletion (I took a snapshot with my phone but I don’t know how to upload it here so you can see). Perhaps is a glitch but if not maybe ask the mods to look into it.

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    159. Ten Bears:
      RG,

      I can’t go to a restaurant now without the waiter asking me what I’d like, and responding: “Think I’ll take two chickens.”

      And my personal favorite:
      “And if I hear any more words come pouring out your c*nt mouth I’m going to have to eat every chicken in this room.”

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    160. Does anyone know if there are plans to release the original pilot? Or deleted scenes? I’d pay money to see those.

        Quote  Reply

    161. Ten Bears:
      Pigeon,

      Did you see the Funny or Die Monty Python – Tyrion mashup posted by “Pip” on May 13 at 11:10 pm under “Written Recap Roundup”? I’m still chuckling.

      I did, it’s awesome!!! 😂

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    162. Ten Bears:
      Pigeon,

      Because I loved it so much, here’s the last Sandor – Arya scene again….

      S8e5 Arya and Sandor last scene
      0:57 – 1:31

      They’re kind of the best ever. How Maisie can act with just her expression…how much they care for each other…augh. Hence my avatar – I love those two more than anything. Live, Arya. ❤

      P.S. The Mountain looked stoopid.

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    163. ramses:
      I know the post for video recaps isn’t up yet, but I just watched ozzy man’s review.
      Was Varys trying to poison Daenerys? 😱

      With everything else that went on in this episode I hadn’t given the scene of Varys with his little bird any thought.

      Hasn’t anyone talked about this here? I haven’t read the other threads, as this episode pretty much confirmed that the series ended for me somewhere between Episode 2 and 3. But yes, I took it to mean that Varys was indeed trying to poison her. The “she’s not eating”, “try later”, seemed to make sense for that.

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    164. I think that aside from Jaime’s complete deconstruction and regression/memory loss of the past number of years within the period of half an episode, the thing that disappointed me most was that Cersei didn’t die alone and afraid. She deserved that. But of course as we’ve learned, not everyone gets what they deserve, in fact very few do. 🙂 But I would have had a laugh if Gregor used her as a second bowling pin a la Qyburn, and everyone went “Wh…wha……what just…what?!?!?!” 😆

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    165. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Wholeheartedly agree. I miss the fully fledged character that used to be Jon Snow. He’s definitely not the man from prior seasons. I don’t like his submissiveness to Daenerys. I don’t feel chemistry there. I don’t think pre-murdered Jon would feel compatible with a woman like her tbh but if he did find himself in lust and pursuing a relationship with Dany he would at least have had the nerve to speak his mind, openly question her. Remember how he was with Stannis and Mance.

        Quote  Reply

    166. Hi all

      Hmmm… to be brutally honest, I am thoroughly disappointed with season 8 – and some of season 7 as well.

      The key failure here is the script. It is weak, rushed, illogical and turns from a character and storydriven narrative, where characters and story lives in and off themselves so that stories evolve around the characters as individuals, to a railroad narrative where characters need to be in a place in order to do something or other in order to reach the next step in the plot. This, plus loads of basic and quite frankly silly and stupid mistakes (like the total lack of anything resembling a military understanding in S8E3, for instance), and idiotic developments [ spoiler ] (like with how the NK was defeated, and the so called madness of Queen Dany) [ / spoiler] makes this season of GoT one whole lot of lost chances and possibilities.

      But this is my opinion. Others may disagree and fair to that.

      I have read or heard some of the spoilers and leaks for the last episode. I will NOT mention these in the following suggested ending of the series. A storyline I have developed that differs from the ones that are presumed leaked.

      I would love to hear your opinion (now or after you have watched E6) on this idea. The reason why it is hidden as a spoiler is because it refers to what has happened before plus – however unlikely – if I am right and it atually IS the ending, then I will obviously be chuffed, but it will also change from being a theory/an idea to being a spoiler:-))

      So WARNING… here be spoilers!

      [ spoiler ] What has been written, cannot be changed. Cool. Therefore this little storyline theory/idea is based on what has indeed been on the GoT show so far.

      So what we see in the preview trailer of S8E6 is Queen Dany with loads of Unsullied and Dothraki in the burned King’s Landing. Fits with this trailer:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2jYWtZ-JOc
      and this scene from an earlier season:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7voZB6Ki7m8

      Now, the North likes Jon Snow. NOT Daenerys. The South likes Dany. Do not know if they like Jon Snow, really. The Dothraki and the Unsullied and Drogon are fiercely loyal to Dany. Not to Jon.

      What if the conflict that must come between Jon the Iceman and Dany the Fire Queen ends up in dividing the Realms in a Northern and a Southern kingdom… like could be hinted here…
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NspqGM0DbbQ

      Then the end would be a split realm, where Dany LIKE HER ANCESTORS come as a conqueror and starts the sequence of the wheel again… i.e. she does not break the wheel, but is a conqueror as Dhaario (sp?) said.

      So after the wars that has killed so many of the nobles till now will actually lead nowhere and you will have a new Targaryen Conqueror on the throne. I.e. back to square one.

      As for the NK… he may reappear again (Jon Snow?), so we will need another wall in the north and Bran will become the Builder where he is sitting next to the wall being built like the ancient Bran the Builder.

      Just an idea.
      [ / spoiler]

      All the best and hope you will enjoy E6!

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    167. ShameShameShame: We would not have GoT without LotR.

      And we would not have gotten GoT without Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. The real inspiration for GRRM to start his series.

      I’m not denying his love for Tolkien, but LotR is not what made him want to write ASoFaI.

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    168. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      I swear, if they depict Jon or Tyrion showing any hint of love or loyalty for Dany after this, or needing cajoling into action by Arya or Sansa, then they will have killed the characters stone dead, whether or not they actually end the series as corpses.

      I think their loyalty for Dany is shattered now but the story is about inner conflict with one’s self. Love doesn’t just die but it does become conflicted, particularly if the basis they came to love that person on was real — but it is very much altered and impacted, twisting the knife further. This was the woman who Jon saw risking her life and putting aside her life’s goal to protect the realm when most wouldn’t believe or acknowledge the severity of the threat, something he’s been fighting for since season 1. Tyrion saw her as a leader who both recognized the struggles of the oppressed and was determined to help better life for them, his softness for “cripples, bastards, and broken things.”

      And both were either blind or in denial about other troubling aspects to Daenerys’s character (like me): Daenerys’s concerns and focus on Jon’s better claim to the Iron Throne — now, to Jon, this wasn’t such a big deal because Jon willingly gave it up, happy to support the woman who gave her all to defend the North, the goal Jon has been working all series toward — but he should have been raising an eyebrow at Dany’s fixation on their claims and unwillingness to compromise. Meanwhile, Tyrion was determined to see Daenerys as this ideal ruler he’s been wanting, thinking he could help soften her worst impulses to resort to fire and blood. She listened to him in season 6 and for the most part in season 7 but he was losing that influence. I think Tyrion truly believed her compassion would win out over all else — I did. Yet, even when it was becoming more clear this wouldn’t happen, I’m not sure why Tyrion’s loyalty didn’t falter. At the same time, I believed in that message that the worst parts of you can be overcome with the better.

      However, all that said, I am very surprised Jon and Tyrion were so sidelined in season 8. As Che said, they were supporting characters to other people’s arc. Even Jon’s own arc, his very identity, was made far more about Dany. While I don’t agree that Jon should have started playing Daenerys (there’d be no reason for Jon to believe Daenerys would succumb to madness based on his experiences with her and what he saw of her prior to 805), I am startled Jon wasn’t more vocal with her. Yeah, Jon has never been afraid to make the unpopular choice, question people he admires and/or loves, or go against the law to do the right thing. While Jon had zero inclination that Dany would go full-out war criminal, why didn’t he question Dany’s determination to take the throne today?

      And Tyrion… Tyrion saw he was losing Dany, Varys outlined his concerns to him in clear detail. I don’t think Varys was smart in his plotting, he wasn’t nearly discreet enough and Varys should have started working on Jon after Dany was no longer a threat, but it seems based on his experiences with so many kings and queens, Varys could see what was coming: what Tyrion and certainly Jon – who has precious little experience with monarchs other than what-you-see-is-what-you-get Stannis – could not.

      And now both Tyrion and Jon will have to live with this forever, that the woman they loved and were so loyal to did this.

        Quote  Reply

    169. Interesting, thanks.

      “there’d be no reason for Jon to believe Daenerys would succumb to madness based on his experiences with her and what he saw of her prior to 805”

      But is Daenerys indeed mad? Well…. maybe. If the GoT will end up on a silly-bordering-stupid note, then yes. However, if she is not, then what happened?

      Essentially, besides like I wrote above with her repeating her ancestor’s invasion and conquest of Westeros, she is also doing nothing that has not already been done during real life history (without the dragon obviously!).

      For instance, Mongol armies would march on a kingdom or a city and if said kingdom or city would surrender, they would be mostly peacefully assimilated in the empire. If they fought back, they would be destroyed, even if they surrendered.

      So what Dany is doing is nothing unusual.

      Can her facial expressions mean anything other than she is going mad? Yes! They can actually be interpreted as an expression of the mix of loss and anger and hatered towards Cersei, who directly or indirectly is responsible for so much loss of life amongst Dany’s friends and dragons. Her mind wanders between ‘should I allow this traitor, who has killed Missandei [etc] and caused me so much grief, the possibility to surrender and live on?’ and ‘should I destroy this traitor…’. The bells, sounding the surrender signal, becomes the symbol which Dany focuses on while contemplating this dilemma. And she ecides to destroy her enemy.

      As for chosing to be feared rather than loved… love has cost her LOTS! So now she has had enough. Fear it is.

      So is she mad? Well… people called Cersei mad. I do not feel she was – rather she wasa an opportunist using the means at her hands. And I believe the same for Dany. She is NOT mad, just very angry and she has had enough of feeling loss and abuse. Otherwise the storytelling and script is just even more silly and inconsistent than is has been so far over this and the previous season.

      As for the paranoia… everybody in her *or any ruler#s( position in Westeros should have paranoia as a survival trait…

      Adrianacandle,

        Quote  Reply

    170. Mike Denmark,

      True, ‘mad’ is probably not the right word. Essentially, what I meant to convey was Jon wasn’t able to see Dany’s mass slaughter coming based on his experiences and knowledge of her (I don’t know if Dany saw it coming either). She helped him and their forces save humanity only to destroy an entire city of people two episodes later.

      Dany’s fears aren’t my issue. Dany’s fears have solid, solid basis. Varys was plotting against her, though Daenerys had done nothing wrong at that point. I think this is a sadistic choice for Varys though, and a tragic one: do you wait until something horrible happens or do you do what you can to prevent it when you feel it’s coming?

      However, there were options for Dany. Why didn’t she propose marriage? That’d be a compromise, absolutely, but it would help get her want she wants: nobody could pit Jon against her and she’d win a solid connection to the North through marriage. Jon is still descended from the Starks and what’s more, he has the love of the Starks.

      For instance, Mongol armies would march on a kingdom or a city and if said kingdom or city would surrender, they would be mostly peacefully assimilated in the empire. If they fought back, they would be destroyed, even if they surrendered.

      So what Dany is doing is nothing unusual.

      The thing is, Dany wanted to break the wheel. She wanted to make a better world for everybody — noble and lowborn alike. This is not the way to do it. While Dany doesn’t have to attack the capital gently, she can keep it to a soldier vs. soldier battle and not go after the civilians.

      That city was afraid of Cersei and Cersei’s choices should not be used as a reason to slaughter them all.

      Even if history has done this before (and true, history’s done everything before), it doesn’t justify mass slaughter. I feel this is argument can lend itself to a slippery slope where all sorts of atrocities are justified :/ Yes, it’s been done before, but it doesn’t make what Dany did right. Dany had options.

      Can her facial expressions mean anything other than she is going mad? Yes! They can actually be interpreted as an expression of the mix of loss and anger and hatered towards Cersei, who directly or indirectly is responsible for so much loss of life amongst Dany’s friends and dragons. Her mind wanders between ‘should I allow this traitor, who has killed Missandei [etc] and caused me so much grief, the possibility to surrender and live on?’ and ‘should I destroy this traitor…’. The bells, sounding the surrender signal, becomes the symbol which Dany focuses on while contemplating this dilemma. And she ecides to destroy her enemy.

      Absolutely, Dany was (to quote Anne of Green Gables) in the depths of despair (but unlike Anne, Dany REALLY WAS in the depths of despair!). However, all of these characters have been there. They’ve watched loved ones murdered in front of them, they’ve heard about the brutal massacres of their family they’ve been forced to stand by while ruin comes to everything they’ve loved, they’ve held dying loves in their arms — but they haven’t mass slaughtered civilians in response.

      If Dany was especially vicious in executing Cersei and Euron, hell — if Dany just went for the Red Keep and burned it away, I could get more on board with that argument. Sansa fed Ramsay to dogs. Jon charged the Bolton forces after watching his little brother get murdered — but they didn’t descend on the inhabitants of Wintertown. Jon fought soldiers in combat on the battlefield, Sansa brutally killed her tormentor, Dany mass slaughtered a city after surrender. There’s a big difference.

      As for chosing to be feared rather than loved… love has cost her LOTS! So now she has had enough. Fear it is.

      Love may have cost her much but these are the people she wants to rule, the people whose love she wants, the people she needs to show she will defend as their queen.

      And defending the North was a good start to that. Dany was showing her devotion to defending the people she was now queen to. But that needs to continue — one can demand allegiance but they can’t demand people love them, they have to earn it. Dany expected all to bend the knee based on a rightful claim. The people of Westeros don’t know her, they only know of a fearsome reputation. Dany had some unfair advantages stacked up against her and some of these weren’t her fault — but in 805, she has proven their fears right.

      If Dany had only given it time — let Westeros see her, let the know her, continue onward from the good she did when she defended the North and the realm she wanted to rule.
      Not receiving the love of the people right away is not a reason to do what she did. And this is what I find most tragic.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Mike Denmark,

      For the record, I’m pretty heartbroken by this turn in events. I’ve seen posts, articles, and listened to podcasts outlining the some of the foundations of this but even so, I wish it was built up better and I’m pretty shattered by it.

        Quote  Reply

    172. Interesting, thanks.

      “there’d be no reason for Jon to believe Daenerys would succumb to madness based on his experiences with her and what he saw of her prior to 805”

      But is Daenerys indeed mad? Well…. maybe. If the GoT will end up on a silly-bordering-stupid note, then yes. However, if she is not, then what happened?

      Essentially, besides like I wrote above with her repeating her ancestor’s invasion and conquest of Westeros, she is also doing nothing that has not already been done during real life history (without the dragon obviously!).

      For instance, Mongol armies would march on a kingdom or a city and if said kingdom or city would surrender, they would be mostly peacefully assimilated in the empire. If they fought back, they would be destroyed, even if they surrendered.

      So what Dany is doing is nothing unusual.

      Can her facial expressions mean anything other than she is going mad? Yes! They can actually be interpreted as an expression of the mix of loss and anger and hatered towards Cersei, who directly or indirectly is responsible for so much loss of life amongst Dany’s friends and dragons. Her mind wanders between ‘should I allow this traitor, who has killed Missandei [etc] and caused me so much grief, the possibility to surrender and live on?’ and ‘should I destroy this traitor…’. The bells, sounding the surrender signal, becomes the symbol which Dany focuses on while contemplating this dilemma. And she ecides to destroy her enemy.

      As for chosing to be feared rather than loved… love has cost her LOTS! So now she has had enough. Fear it is.

      So is she mad? Well… people called Cersei mad. I do not feel she was – rather she wasa an opportunist using the means at her hands. And I believe the same for Dany. She is NOT mad, just very angry and she has had enough of feeling loss and abuse. Otherwise the storytelling and script is just even more silly and inconsistent than is has been so far over this and the previous season.

      As for the paranoia… everybody in her *or any ruler#s( position in Westeros should have paranoia as a survival trait…

      Adrianacandle,

      Adrianacandle,

      Thanks for an intelligent and interesting reply.

      I do not right now have time to go into a deeper reply, but in relation to your comment

      “The thing is, Dany wanted to break the wheel. She wanted to make a better world for everybody — noble and lowborn alike. ”

      please refer to my post above the one you respond to… there I outline my story preference (yes! call it fan fiction… but I still like my version of The End better than what I expect) based on the current developments… and utilizing the actual official teaser trailers for seasons 6 and 8, plus the vision of Dany from the mage tower earlier in the series to outline a possible scenario for the end situation. I am convinced that this will NOT be the actual story used, though, but personally I find it more satisfying than what I have heard elsewhere (an end that will be totally disheartening and utterly unsatisfactory).

      [ spoiler ] What has been written, cannot be changed. Cool. Therefore this little storyline theory/idea is based on what has indeed been on the GoT show so far.

      So what we see in the preview trailer of S8E6 is Queen Dany with loads of Unsullied and Dothraki in the burned King’s Landing. Fits with this trailer:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2jYWtZ-JOc
      and this scene from an earlier season:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7voZB6Ki7m8

      Now, the North likes Jon Snow. NOT Daenerys. The South likes Dany. Do not know if they like Jon Snow, really. The Dothraki and the Unsullied and Drogon are fiercely loyal to Dany. Not to Jon.

      What if the conflict that must come between Jon the Iceman and Dany the Fire Queen ends up in dividing the Realms in a Northern and a Southern kingdom… like could be hinted here…
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NspqGM0DbbQ

      Then the end would be a split realm, where Dany LIKE HER ANCESTORS come as a conqueror and starts the sequence of the wheel again… i.e. she does not break the wheel, but is a conqueror as Dhaario (sp?) said.

      So after the wars that has killed so many of the nobles till now will actually lead nowhere and you will have a new Targaryen Conqueror on the throne. I.e. back to square one.

      As for the NK… he may reappear again (Jon Snow?), so we will need another wall in the north and Bran will become the Builder where he is sitting next to the wall being built like the ancient Bran the Builder.

      Just an idea.
      [ / spoiler]

        Quote  Reply

    173. I loved Emilia’s take on Dany going mad, also that Kit and Peter call out that their characters were proven wrong in backing her.

      Also pleasing to see the initial negativity has died away quickly and a lot of those that didn’t initially love the episode have almost said aha after a few days it makes a lot more sense now. I am seeing a lot less criticism of the episode on social media now at least.

        Quote  Reply

    174. kevin1989:
      Right now season 8 is my 2nd favorite season, I rated the episode for myself and this is my ratings:

      1.Season 4: 9,70
      2.Season 8: 9,68
      3.Season 6: 9,51
      4.Season 1: 9,51
      5.Season 7: 9,43
      6.Season 3: 9,21
      7.Season 5: 9,17
      8.Season 2: 8,93

      Meaning that if the next episode is a 9,8 for me it will be nr 1.

      It can happen that later this week I change my mind it it will drop. Or others will rise. And I found it difficult to rate GoT episodes. Because my lowest is 8,2. I compare that episode to other shows and I come to 8,2. Every other needed to be higher and to find the right balance it difficult. how do you decide which episode is better, and if it’s better if it’s small that it deserve the same rating. Even making a top 72 is difficult. And still am not sure if it’s right.

      Interesting and I have to say I have enjoyed all the season 8 episodes more rewatch. My running order of best to to worst seasons right now.
      Season 6
      Season 4
      Season 3
      Season 8
      Season 1
      Season 2
      Season 7
      Season 5

        Quote  Reply

    175. Dee Stark:
      Ten out of fucking ten. I am speechless. I don’t know what to do with myself.

      (Watched it delayed)

      Still rooting for Dany now Dee? I recall our conversation a year or two back where you were convinced she would not break bad so curious to see if your view of her has changed.

      P.s glad you managed to watch from Korea:-D

        Quote  Reply

    176. Jon Snowed,

      I must admit to thoroughly disliking the scripts from somewhere in S7 till now. But this post is not to critize… but it is a thought and an idea that may make it make more sense….

      What if they have left the character based storytelling to a plot-drive storyline because we have left the character-driven story and turned to a more symbolic storyline. Specifically, …
      [ spoiler ] they have destroyed ICE in S8E3. Now they need to destroy FIRE as well. Balance is found in the Fire-Ice-Prince-Who-Was-Promised Jon Stargaryen… just a thought.

      If true, then this may be what drives the D&D script writers into making these decisions, that so many people do not like. [ / spoiler]

        Quote  Reply

    177. Does anybody know mre about this quote from GRRM?

      [ spoiler ] Quote: “According to George R.R. Martin’s original pitch for the novel series written in 1993 he claimed, only five primary characters would survive to the end of the series: Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya and Bran. Whether this translates into the television series is still to be determined, but it could be a significant indication of which characters will survive in the end.” [ / spoiler]

      Found on
      https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6027920/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv

        Quote  Reply

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