Whatever it is the Game of Thrones production is building next to their studios, it’s big. You don’t build an entire castle set for a quick appearance — the only times sets of this magnitude have been built, they were either permanent locations, such as Winterfell and Castle Black, or structures specifically designed for a battle sequence, such as the battlements of King’s Landing built in Magheramorne for the Battle of Blackwater Bay.
Considering the next season will also be the last, permanence is not a likely quality for any set, so it must be the alternative: the kind of 360º cohesive set designed for a dynamic action setpiece. And if there was any doubt, now a new siege engine has appeared nearby. They are preparing for a battle. Or a siege, at the very least!
Filming for Season 8 looks to be almost underway. #GameofThrones pic.twitter.com/DANw5t6WHQ
— Paulo Ross (@paulorossradio) October 25, 2017
Watchers on the Wall commenter Apollo brought these new photos to our attention, taken by Northern Irish reporter Paulo Ross, which not only show the trebuchet but also offer a much better sense of the distribution of the new castle set. Here’s a closer look:
Though the trebuchet is near the new castle set, it’s currently not in the exact same location, so there is no way to know if they will belong to the same sequence. However, there is little doubt the trebuchet will be moved somewhere, as shipping containers weren’t really a thing in the Middle Ages, so it’s likely that the siege engine will end up as one of the many props in the larger castle set, which is on the other side of the road.
With each new photo we form a better picture of what this new set is supposed to be: initial reports suggested that the sequences set here would involve a controlled fire; two massive defensive walls seem to headline this elaborate set; and now a siege engine has materialized nearby. It very much looks like a castle is going to be sieged in season eight, and the sequence will be big enough to warrant building all of it!
I am so excited I can’t even put it into words.. I’m so damn curious.
Is it just me or the painthall parking lot is a really odd place to build a huge castle-like structure, with people passing by all the time and taking pictures? surely they won’t film there, right? but can this massive set actually be moved?
Final dany vs cersei battle in KL after the WW’s are defeated?
jdtargstark,
I’m sure they’ll put up walls during filming.
Kaka,
That’s my pet theory, yeah.
Kaka,
Jonerys VS Euroncei Battle in the end on KL or a the huge battle of Winterfell against NK
So the snowy KL[the buildings on photos they had the same color with KL buildings and the Red Keep]is prepared for fight with the NK or with Euron-Cercei for the final battle…ALL OUT WAR…ALL OUT WAR
Artemisia,
Why would they need a trebuchet if it was a battle with the NK?
Kaka,
you right maybe be the final battle with Cercei-Euron with the human evil couple of GOT…but also i do think that NK will want to go in KL for a romantic reunion with Cercei [lol] and both of 3 to having a one Long Night stand trio..lol
If they light the projectiles on fire, a trebuchet would be a great weapon against the Night King’s dead army. May be useful against Viserion, too.
“Controlled fire” makes me think that at least one of the dragons will make it out alive from the battle against the NK.
Luka Nieto,
Agree..Maybe Cercei-Euron-NK to wanted to united against their common enemies[Danny-Jaime-Jon] ..who are coming South to KL to fight them
Kaka,
For Viserion?
The WW are the final battle. Cersei (especially after the Spoils of War defeat and Jaime leaving) are a blip on the radar compared to NK/WW.
Artemisia,
There is zero percent chance the NK “unites” with anyone living.
As others have said, the presence of siege equipment makes it most likely that this is the final storming of the Red Keep.
I’ve been debating whether Cersei was going to be kept as a Saruman-type figure to be dealt with after the Night King, or if the two plots would run simultaneously. This would seem to support the former interpretation.
Exciting news.
Big battle at KL seems all but confirmed now.
Curious who will be using the trebuchet. I agree with you Luka, it very well could be Team Cersei’s weapon against the Army of the Dead.
Is there any reason for team Dany/ Jon to use a trebuchet unless the dragons are dead?
Sean C.,
Yea. I lean heavily in the Cersei dies last camp.
Question at this point is just the sequence.
Why are people so sure it’s going to be at KL?
Could be manned by the undead against WF. Or used within WF by the living.
Ryan,
Ryan sweetie..it would be not hard for him to fly there quick and to turn them [Cercei-Euron]into WW ..believe me ….he is a killing machine robot with artificial intelligence created by the Old Gods with the help of the COTF..but he now is out of control and is going to kill /turning into WW everyone except if the North [with Jon-Danny-Jaime heads]wins the Great War [but not with some great looses like Tyrion,Sansa,Bron,Varys and etc] making a pax with the Childrens of the Forest and NK get destroyed by them.
Bearded Onion,
Because this set isn’t Winterfell.
This is the first time I’ve seen people talking about the idea that Cersei is the finale, so-to-speak, not the Night King. That’s a pretty interesting thought.
Oh, well that explains things.
I actually agree with all of you, Cersei will be the “last villain”, I mean, it makes sense, Cersei is one of the best characters in the show and they will want to keep Lena until the last moment 😊
Ryan,
If this battle is in KL then Cersei is definitely going to be involved. The question is whether the NK will be alive at that point or not
Kaka,
In the Battle of the Bastards (the Battle of Meereen), we saw trebushets throwing burning balls. These can be efficient agains the dead as much as against the living. Or Cersei may come back to the idea of throwing wessels with wildfire. Anyway, it looks like this trebushet will be used in the defense, rather than in the offense. In fact, the entire set looks built for the defense rather than offense: the surroundings are too urban and modern, and I can’t quit see where they coud place the attacking army, though on the other hand, there is a bank (in case the attack comes from the ships) and a bit of a field, so IDN.
“However, there is little doubt the trebuchet will be moved somewhere, as shipping containers weren’t really a thing in the Middle Ages…”
—————-
Darn. I thought the shipping containers were for the food supplies Hot Pie has been hoarding to save the realm.
Ryan,
Why? The Ning King wants to procreate, for that purpose he needs human babies, and therefore he needs human “allies” like Craster. Cersei could serve this purpose perfectly: she could promote the required number of child sarcifices etc.
There’s supposedly a cache of wildfire still in King’s Landing, so whomever attacks better be careful.
I think that was in order to raise an army in the first place. The NK now has that army, so I don’t think he’s looking for more WW to add to the list via alliance at this point, but I suppose you never know. We dont really know their purpose yet.
I think it would make most sense as things stand if the Night King is defeated and then our survivors march on King’s Landing to defeat Cersei and unite the Seven Kingdoms once and for all.
Everything that is needed to defeat the Night King now resides in The North: Dany and the dragons, Jon, Bran, all the Valyrian steel, a horde of Dothraki, the Unsullied, Jaime Lannister, the North and Vale armies…
Plus the shortcuts to defeating the Night King and his army have already been established.
I can’t see how or why the Night King would bypass all of these major narrative obstacles to attack King’s Landing, kill Cersei and then meet Jon/Dany in some final showdown.
They’ve also already set up a potential Golden Company / Euron / Theon twist that would become redundant if Cersei is already dead and millions of King’s Landingers assimilated into the Night King’s army.
I could envisage Theon and/or Yara rocking up with the Iron Fleet at King’s Landing late in the game, just as Theon promised Robb before he betrayed him.
I can’t see why they would be constructing trebuchets for anything other than a human-based siege. And since they’ve constructed this whole new set it’s probably going to be King’s Landing, considering they couldn’t be bothered to construct new sets for the sieges of Casterly Rock and Highgarden. This is unlikely to be some random castle that we haven’t seen before that they’re building these elaborate sets and props for.
Ten Bears,
Half of which are just completely filled with gravy.
That thing is used to breach castle walls to gain entrance. The walkers can use tools, but I don’t think they’d need to since they have giants. So, I’m guessing the siege thingy is being used by the army of the living to gain entrance to King’s Landing. Perhaps one of KL’s other gates that we haven’t seen yet.
I take it that the Living have prevailed over the dead and have turned their attention to Cersai, who will never back down. We’ve got two pregnant queens and the fathers of their children fighting against each other for the future of their unborn children. Cersai vs Dany and Jon vs Jaime?
All I know is that at some point, pregnant Dany will walk out of massive flames and cause everybody’s head to explode, figuratively.
its so ridiculous the Nk be defeated in the north, the greatest threat since the first episode and the 1 chapter, the WW, be defeated without advance any region of westeros, i hope the final battle with the NK is at least in the trident.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
It’s hard to disagree with any of this and I think I agree with most of what you said. So, which dragon do you think is the one in Bran’s vision flying over King’s Landing then? You think it’s Drogon and Daeny? And who blew up the Red Keep (House of the Undying vision)? Cersei with wildfire as a last resort once she realizes that she’s defeated?
Mr Derp,
Well, procreation should be the NK’s purpose one way or another. The WW are few and not invulnerable: even if they took over Westeros there would still be a risk, that they die by accidetaly cutting themselves with dragonglass or Valyrian steel left by the humans. Moreover, there is still Essos, etc. And in general, procreation is a basic instinct of all the spieces. The WW were created from humans, but it doesn’t look like their instinct have changed: the fight to extend their habitatto increase their numbers and they have to increase their numbers to extend their habitat – its all about survival of the spieces at the end.
I’m with you on this one. In fact (* dons tinfoil hat*) I’m not so sure there will be a final “shootout” with the NK at all.
Part of my tinfoil theory-in-progress roughly parallels the final act of my favorite movie of all time (spoiler-coded for those who haven’t seen it):
You figure you’re about to witness a big shootout scene, as the outnumbered hero goes out with guns blazing, followed by an assault on the people in the cabin. But it doesn’t turn out that way at all. There’s a different and better twist – and not a forced or unnatural one.
The climactic battle will occur, later, not against the Indians, but against a different enemy from the past. Because: “Sometimes there ain’t no forgettin’.” – The Outlaw Josey Wales
Anon,
“All I know is that at some point, pregnant Dany will walk out of massive flames and cause everybody’s head to explode, figuratively.”
—————-
🤛👏👏 Thank you for using the word “figuratively”! These days, too many people mususe the word “literally” for emphasis, when they really mean the opposite (figuratively).
They would’ve written that “pregnant Dany will walk out of the flames and cause everybody’s head to literally explode.”
Sincerely,
Stannis B.
The One True Grammar Nazi
Inga,
Lol,now all i could think is a scene where a WW cuts himself on a piece of dragonglass by accident and then shattering in a million pieces,that’s way too funny of an image .
What if the first big battle of the season is actually at the red keep and it’s cersei VS knight king?
Mr Derp,
Well, there was sunshine and no snow in Bran’s vision of a dragon’s shadow over King’s Landing, so it’s possible it already happened (e.g. when Dany arrived at the Dragonpit). But I don’t think the producers will necessarily feel compelled to follow through on every detail of Bran’s vision.
And I think it probably will be Cersei who destroys the Red Keep. I could picture her downfall mimicking the Mad King, with armies at the gates and advisers (inc. either Tyrion or Jaime) futilely trying to convince her to surrender.
I wouldn’t rule out Daenerys torching the Red Keep, as she was desperate to do for all of Season 7. But as Jon pointed out, if she goes round melting castles then she betrays her desire to be a better ruler than those that went before. And I’m not sure what would be particularly compelling about Daenerys barbecuing Cersei in the Red Keep, unless it was to signify Daenerys finally crossing the line into tyranny.
WinterRy71,
Well the NK could get there first but there’s no way his army can,even with time jumps it makes no sense for the army of the dead to skip the North and other locations to go straight to KL so no i don’t think you are correct with your theory .
We really don’t know what’s motivating the WW or what their ultimate purpose is yet. We just know that they seem to be interested in killing everyone/everything. Until I know more about what their ultimate plan is, I wouldn’t assume procreation is a priority for them, but you never know. Anything is possible. They probably wouldn’t decline a chance to procreate, but then again, maybe they would. I don’t know.
Maybe not, but they’ve gone out of their way to show that vision multiple times, so I don’t agree that it’s just another detail of Bran’s visions. It could also be a vision from the past when Aegon conquered the Seven Kingdoms, so you could be right in the sense that it already happened. To me, when they show a vision multiple times it’s a dead giveaway that it means more than just another detail. Though, how important that detail is to the plot remains to be seen.
Mr Derp,
Can’t be Aegon. KL wasn’t that developed during his reign.
I think that Winterfell will fall, Dany and co. will retreat South, where they will be attacked by Cersei and the Golden Company. The trebuchets are probably for this.
I suppose we’ll learn once the set is adorned!
Yes Cersei is a great villain but I cannot see her being the FINAL villain.
You think no one is gonna watch the last 3 episodes if Cersei dies in Episode 70 instead of Episode 73? Especially if she is possibly a wight?
Plus we know that she’ll be killed by ‘little brother/little sister’….. Jaime, Tyrion, or Euron….possibly even Arya or Bran warging… Not Night King.
If you refer to an “alliance” with the Night King as NK going to King’s Landing first to burn it down and get dead armies marching north, I give that a slight chance of happening…. but come on there’s not going to be a civil truce or procreation with NK by Cersei……
I think final battle will be Winterfell….. and then Bran goes back in time and gives it the name of Winterfell as that is where NK is finally defeated.
Ryan,
D&D basically cemented Cersei as the final villain when they announced that killing the NK would lead to the entire WW army being vanquished. That basically takes out any nuance that there was with the WW and reduces them to CGI spectacle. CGI spectacle is good and fun but isn’t strong enough to be the final conflict. with Cersei they can have CGI spectacle, and human complexity and emotions. and the D’s are likely to go that way imo. I have 0 doubt in my head that most people are more interested in seeing Cersei’s death than the NK’s.
The only question now is whether the Cersei/NK conflict happens simultaneously or if they just get the Nk out of the way first. But Cersei dying in like season 8 ep 3 is just not going to happen. i’ll bet a $1 million on it lol
Also, the ‘bittersweet’ ending….
There’s no way both Jon and Dany survive.
My bet is that Jon dies/sacrifices himself to defeat the NK….they’ve shown him to be the guy to fall on the sword and they’ve put too much in place and spent too much time on the character of Dany’s side to have her die and not be queen. So are they really going to have Jon die AND THEN have a big huge conflict/war with Cersei?
The only other bittersweet option I see is that Melisandre’s resurrection has rendered Jon ‘immortal’, so to speak…. so that even though he has no interest in ruling, he becomes King after Dany’s death (whenever that is) and rules for a loooooong time…. long enough to see everyone he loves die and live a lot longer than he wants to…. and the series ends 100 years from now with him reading the story of the series (written by Sam) to his descendants…….that’s my tinfoil theory though, longshot.
Captain Sparrow,
Yesč something like the Sleeping Beauty with a spindle, lol.
Aguero,
I feel the Army of the Dead were always likely to be fought/defeated in The North.
They are a near irresistible force. Even more so now with a dragon. The only way for them to get south would be by obliterating The North.
Jon was always likely to meet them in The North or at The Wall. He’s not just going to let them waltz across The North; and last season they reaffirmed his belief that he has a duty to be “the shield that guards the realms of men”. He’ll do everything in his power to stop the Night King getting south, where the people are defenceless without dragonglass, dragons or Valyrian steel.
With Dany, her dragons and the Dothraki rallied to his side, there’s no practical reason why the climactic battle shouldn’t be settled in The North. Had Jon managed to rally the Lannisters, the Dornish, the Reach and co to their cause as well (or instead) they still would have intended to make their stand in The North.
And I think it would make narrative and thematic sense for the south to remain sheltered and skeptical about the magical elements in Westeros, dragons aside, as they historically always have been and consumed by the political side of the game.
Plus, with only 6 episodes left, from a practical point of view I think the producers may prefer to resolve the White Walker threat with all the necessary CGI, practical effects and location work in one Westerosi location rather than having to depict complex and CGI-laden battle and siege scenes all over Westeros.
We’ve got a long wait until we find out for certain. But I personally can’t see the Night King getting any further than The North. They could illustrate the devastation through the deaths of major characters, dragons and the loss of much of Jon/Dany’s army.
Right Now their are 2 competing theories. Army of the Dead invades KL, Trust me if WW attack KL we will know. Thats something very hard to keep secret even when your shooting outdoors. 2nd theory being the Battle of KL is just a human conflict for the iron throne. And again we will know if and when their is a outside battle.
Yaga,
Could you explain how do you imagine that retreat from Winterfell? I never get it.
Inga,
Just your basic “retreat under cover of air force” deal, only medieval-like. The humans fight, the losses are too great (plus they have nonfighting civilians among them, like Sansa and Tyrion), the dragons provide air cover for the retreating infantry units, the NK isn’t interested in destroying the pile of stones remaining behind, Winterfell becomes remade into new WW command post.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
But it makes a huge narrative sense for KL to be threatened. Some 500K-1M people live there, more than the entire North. It’s the heart and centre of civilisation in Westeros. It is the seat of power (and harbours the literal Iron Throne). It’s hugely symbolic if KL is threatened. Civilisation won’t be down until KL is down, and vice versa. You defend civilisation by defending KL. Not Winterfell. Not any other place.
I have half a thought that this is why the show finally let Jon see it, albeit only from a ship and the outskirts. So that when he finally dies for real, it will be with full awareness of what he defended.
Kaka,
The most likely solution is that the two conflicts will be solved simultaneously. This lets DnD play at the same time with the “small team” (Jaime infiltrating KL with help from the Hound) and “fullscale war” (everyone else fighting the WW) dynamics.
I’m really holding out for something like this, as I don’t really like the idea that Cersei’s downfall will be the climactic finale to the story. If we had a simultaneous battle for humanity in the North with the WWs and the South with Cersei burning KL, it would fit more with the ice and fire theme.
I really can’t picture the Northern forces marching 1000 miles south against Cersei, after the mother of all battles that will likely decimate the vast majority of their forces, and with little resources. They’ll be exhausted and battle weary, and will need a long time to recharge and regroup.
As for the NK making it all the way south to make Cersei his queen.. I’m glad some of you guys aren’t on the writing team 😂 this would be such a cheap storyline IMO.
If the WWs make it to KL it means they’ve wiped out the Northern forces.
Yaga,
“The most likely solution is that the two conflicts will be solved simultaneously. This lets DnD play at the same time with the “small team” (Jaime infiltrating KL with help from the Hound) and “fullscale war” (everyone else fighting the WW) dynamics.”
Sean C.,
All the hype about WW’s for Cersei to be the last villain? Kinda dissapointing.
War against WW’s is all that matter, first and the last war, as Beric has said it.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
They have to get much further South than just the North. What is the point of this apocalypse when it would only concern the north.
Ryan,
actually this ending is too predictable and boring[not bittersweet]ending because every fan wants Jon to live be happy ever after king and Danny dies…but there will be fucking big shocking twist for him…so brace yourself you tinfoil kitty
Yaga,
King’s Landing is already under threat along with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms and Jon knows their fates will likely be determined by whether or not his army is victorious in The North. The Army of the Dead doesn’t need to be outside the walls of King’s Landing for civilisation to be at stake.
I personally can’t envisage a scenario in which the Night King defeats the coalition already in The North, only to be defeated in a second encounter down south.
If Dany and her dragons, Jon, Bran, all the Valyrian steel in Westeros and approximately 100 thousand soldiers (Dothraki, Unsullied, North, Vale etc) specifically armed with dragonglass weapons can’t defeat the Army of the Dead, then who else will?
Is saving Westeros going to come down to the Golden Company? The Dornish? The Lannisters, who are too weak even to defeat Dany’s forces?
Are they going to arm the plebs of King’s Landing with another few hundred thousand dragonglass weapons they’ve kept stashed in reserve on Dragonstone just in case?
If Daenerys and her gargantuan army aren’t meant to be the key to defeating the Night King, then what exactly is their purpose in the story? Just to act as cannon fodder until the southerners get their act together?
Plus, I don’t see what’s to be gained from destroying Winterfell again this late in the game. It’s already been captured, destroyed, rebuilt, occupied and retaken. If Dany’s House of the Undying vision is accurate then King’s Landing may be destroyed, in which case I find it unlikely that both the biggest dramatic locations and centres of power will be destroyed.
Although, obviously, it’s all a guessing game at the moment.
Apollo,
That is as bad as the people that were speculating that LF is going to ally himself with the NK,i would have legit quit the show if some trash like that happened,i wouldn’t have cared if there was only 1 episode left,it’s funny how some people were saying that his death was fanservice,well you know what ,i rather take fanservice that actually makes sense than trash storytelling just for the sake of “TWISTS” .
Yaga,
Sorry, but that would be unimaginable even in a fantazy show. Name me a single successful hstoric retreat from a falling castle and I will take my words back, but do you realize how sieges work? The attacks are always concentrated on the gates, which means that if you want to break through you have to break through the bulk of the enemie’s forces. Heavy cavalry could do that, but not women or children or any other noncombatants – there were reasons why mass suicides in besieged castles were a rather common case. And the dragons wouldn’t make a difference: as we saw in Beyond the Wall even three of them were not able to clear the area – the wights kept comming and finally knocked Jon into the water. But let’s, imagine someone like Nights of the Vale manage to broke out of Winterfell. They would have to ride god knows how many miles without rest, in cold, etc. – the dead should overrun them before they reach the Neck. Therefore, Winterfell has to stand the siege just to save the bulk of the Targarian army.
I think the final battle will be in KL with Jon vs. Euron, Daenerys is going to die during the long night and Cersei is going to die too at some point, I think there will be a final battle for the Iron Throne with Euron against Jon after the white walkers are defeated.
Kaka,
“D&D basically cemented Cersei as the final villain when they announced that killing the NK would lead to the entire WW army being vanquished….”
…………….
Well, that was Beric’s theory. Then Jon said “You don’t understand…”
And neither did I.
Ryan,
“Plus we know that she’ll be killed by ‘little brother/little sister’….. Jaime, Tyrion, or Euron….possibly even Arya or Bran warging… Not Night King.”
…………………
Not a “little sister.” The “little brother” is going to wrap HIS hands around her pale white throat. And strictly speaking, Jaime does not have hands (plural). Euron emphasized that. Unless a prosthetic counts.
(My) Current Odds – As of 10/26/17
1. Tyrion 3:1
2. Sandor 4:1
3. Euron 5:1
4. Jaime 5:1
5. Jon (Aegon 2.0) 10:1
So all the girls die so Jon can fight a character no one gives a shit about for the Iron Throne he doesn’t care about either?
Well duh
Perhaps the trebuchet will be how the Night King gains entry into King’s Landing?
Kingsguard #1: “Did you hear that swooshing sound, Reg?”
Kingsguard #2: “Sure did, Hank, and all of a sudden it’s freezing cold.”
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
In Dany’s vision of the Throne Room, there was no wreckage on the floor. So the hole in the roof must have been caused by an explosion from inside.
corinnestark,
If his Child(By Danaerys) is the heir you bet your ass he will fight for the iron throne
corinnestark,
I don’t envision Euron as “The Big Bad.” That would’ve been set up sooner. I had assumed he’ll be part of the resolution of Theon’s story.
Ten Bears,
You left Arya off your list. Theirs that little theory about Arya killing Jaime, taking his face and killing Cersei while Jaime’s face. I have championed that theory on reddit
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
> I personally can’t envisage a scenario in which the Night King defeats the coalition already in The North, only to be defeated in a second encounter down south.
Then it’s a failure of your imagination. Envisage, for instance, the possibility that the army is mostly meaningless – the NK has to be destroyed by some One Ring trick. Envisage, in what follows, that Bran will have the vision regarding this *after* the fight in Winterfell. Et voila. First defeat, then, with increased knowledge, victory.
Inga,
The dead are generally slow, except in small bursts of activity. And there will be narrative precedent: Sam got away from them at the Fist of First Men, Tormund and/or Beric will have gotten away at Eastwatch. It is possible to escape them, especially if the NK were occupied with Winterfell itself.
I suppose we have an altogether different vision of Winterfell itself. For me, it’s definitely too small to host even all the armies that theoretically are already there – I always mentally put all those knights in a camp outside. So, for me, the majority of those Dothraki, wildings, knights and so on would already be outside Winterfell. It wouldn’t be as much of a siege as a battle around a castle, especially if – as I hope –
Dany and the others are surprised and caught virtually unprepared.
At present, the NK has the element of surprise on his side. Dany doesn’t know that he broke through the Wall and she especially doesn’t know about undead Viserion. I’m assuming Tormund manages to warn her and Jon, but I hope he comes almost too late.
Which, coincidentally, brings me to the “single successful hstoric retreat from a falling castle” you were asking me to give you. Here it is: Battle of Echo Base/Hoth, The Empire Strikes Back. Fantasy is fair play, I hope?
Ten Bears,
It could be “little sister”…. another high Valerian noun that has no gender….aka prince or princess that was promised.
That’s my question, too.
Imagine, too, that when he shatters, so do all the wights he turned…and they are all in random locations.
It is in my book! 🙂 Empire, FTW.
As for Dany/Jon not knowing about the wall coming down, I’m willing to bet they learn of that immediately into the first episode. News (and people) traveled remarkably quick in S7. I’m positive Bran knows; so, I can’t see them being caught off guard by that. Unless, of course, they change the pace again in the final season.
Sansa made it sound last season like she expected Winterfell to be a place of safety for much of the North.
With Bran on their side, they’ll know the Wall has fallen almost immediately. Being taken by surprise wouldn’t happen.
I think if they time jump only three people seem right to tell the tale: Brandon Stark, the last greenseeer ; Sansa Stark with hopefully some Grand-children and nieces and nephews; Samwell Tarley played by GRRM.
<font style="vertical-align: inherit;"><font style="vertical-align: inherit;">corinnestark</font></font>,
And what bothers you?
Ten Bears,
Ten Bears,
In the books Euron is shown as the greatest danger for westeros after the white walkers, I do not see it only as “part of the resolution of Theon’s history.”
Of course, I can not imagine Daenerys hanging Cersei to death.
I don’t know who you’re addressing, but….
I don’t think the final battle will be between Jon and Euron. Euron was introduced/established too late in the show for him to be THE antagonist. Cersei and the NK are the two primary antagonists just as Jon and Dany are the two primary protagonists.
EDIT
*Sorry…I didn’t see that you reposted already, but I see that you are referencing the books…fair enough. I was strictly speaking in terms of the show.
Sean C.,
Didn’t Sansa say to LF that the Northern houses hadn’t contributed enough grain to WF’s supplies? If there’s a siege, or thousands more soldiers and civilians inside than anticipated, malnutrition and starvation can become more of a problem than the enemies outside.
Someone here – I’m sorry, I forget who – said that Valonqar (sp?) is NOT gender neutral – unlike the word for Prince(ss). Also, the word “his” was not in High V.
And if it can mean any younger brother or sister, then it’s a pretty lame prophecy.
I was thinking Viserion too. A la Bronn in Spoils of War against Drogon/Dany.
I don’t like cersei being the final battle. The entire premise of the show is how society is too busy bickering over the throne to realize the true threat. I really don’t know how it will play out but here’s an interesting idea: the golden company and Lannister forces march north and siege winterfell. It has been mentioned several times that no southern army has gone north and won. Maybe cersei decides to attack after she realizes Jaime “walked away” from her.
Don’t forget no one knows the wall is broken except the nights watch. Jon and Danny arrive in winter fell and cersei marches would be the first coulple of episodes. Then as cersei seizes the night kings army attacks winterfell for one gigantic battle to end it.
Like I said it’s just a thought. But the build up of the night king would have been odd if he isn’t the final battle. Maybe brans dragon vision is dany taking the throne after cersei was killed in the north?
Funny, the comment above mentioned using it, and it struck me as a perfect weapon. As the NK makes its way to KL, just set off fires in the various places where they have the wildfire. Just make sure the populace is somewhere else….
Mr Derp,
“We really don’t know what’s motivating the WW or what their ultimate purpose is yet. We just know that they seem to be interested in killing everyone/everything. Until I know more about what their ultimate plan is, I wouldn’t assume procreation is a priority for them, but you never know. Anything is possible. They probably wouldn’t decline a chance to procreate, but then again, maybe they would. I don’t know.”
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I don’t know why everyone’s vilifying my boy The Night King. The WWs are the victims in this story.
(*Removes tinfoil helmet*)
Time for some fun speculation:
I think that having the Night King defeated at Winterfell without ever really threatening the south would be a bit of a disappointment after all of the build-up about how the living need to band together.
I also think having Winterfell fall quickly to the army of the dead, forcing the Starks & Targaryens to flee south would also be disappointing after all the build-up for preparing Winterfell for the war.
The most satisfying way to resolve this is to have King’s Landing be threatened by the Night King without Winterfell falling first. Let’s consider the situation:
The Night King has one dragon, Daenerys has two. If the northern forces fortify in Winterfell with two dragons, attacking it directly is risky, but likewise, Daenerys may want to keep her dragons close for defensive purposes because without them, Winterfell (and all the people sheltering in it) are extremely vulnerable.
If both sides are keeping their dragons away from each other, that gives the army of the dead the freedom to roam the North with little opposition.
Also, keep in mind that King’s Landing is a juicy target for the Night King. It has little in the way of defenses against him, and a million potential corpses to add to his army. The wildfire hidden under the city has been mentioned multiple times, and may come into play again.
I don’t necessarily see Cersei being killed by the Night King, and the whole city falling, that would seem like a disappointing end to Cersei’s story, but I could see a surprise Night King and Viserion attack on KL killing a bunch of people, who then get wighted, and kill more people. I could imagine a significant portion of King’s Landing falling to a rapidly growing “southern army of the dead” while the original “northern army of the dead” keeps The Starks and Targaryens busy.
We already know that Qyburn and Cersei have been building a bunch of scorpions (originally intended to kill living dragons).
We already know that they’re suspicious about Daenerys only bringing 2 dragons to the KL parlay, wondering what happened to the third.
They know from Jon’s demonstration that dragonglass can kill wights.
Qyburn seems like a clever enough person to add all this up and prepare some anti-draco-wight weapons. I think once the Night King has built up a large army of dead KL commoners, he might try to attack the red keep, but retreat after a few near-misses from qyburn’s dragonglass tipped scorpion bolts.
At this point, part of KL would be ruled by the dead, but Cersei would still be alive and well in the Red Keep, with defensive lines holding part of the city in her control. This might change the political situation for the living as well, if Cersei takes the threat more seriously when it’s at her doorstep, but is still unwilling to give up her throne.
The Night King might decide to keep himself and his dragon safer by taking a more hands off approach and letting his massive armies do the work, forcing Jon and Daenerys to actively hunt him down rather than just waiting for him to attack.
At some point, I imagine someone might decide that the best way to deal with a massive army of wights infesting KL is to “burn them all” with the wildfire stashed under the city, and I’m curious to see who would end up in favor of that plan (because they need to kill wights) and who opposes it (because some still living people would be caught in the inferno).
My speculation for the general order of events
1) The Army of the dead spreads out across the North, not gathering to give Drogon and Rhaegal a tempting target, but forcing the Night’s Watch & other Northerners retreat to Winterfell for defense. Possibly a brief but indecisive dragon skirmish at Winterfell that doesn’t kill any dragons, but makes both sides wary of engaging each other directly.
2) Night King goes to KL to make southern army, gets chased away but leaves his new army behind
3) Conventional (non-dragon) battles between the living and the dead in the North and South, with the north gradually winning, and the south gradually losing.
4) Euron and the Golden company show up and almost ruin everything somehow. Theon defeats Euron, rescues Yara. Golden Company goes to Winterfell and helps defeat the remaining dead there, and then maybe tries to take the castle for Cersei, but fails.
5) Uneasy alliance between the Stark/Targaryen forces and the Golden Company heads south to deal with the massive army of wights in King’s Landing, while Jon and Daenerys hunt the Night King. Is Cersei willing to cooperate with her living enemies once there are hundreds of thousands of wights at her door? Will Arya fight her way through the wight-infested city to get into the Red Keep and assassinate Cersei? That scenario would conveniently involve killing Cersei and needing a valyrian steel dagger.
6) Wildfire plot to clear a few hundred thousand wights from King’s Landing. Do they burn it or not, who knows. Maybe Jon & Daenerys kill the Night King and all the dead collapse before the wildfire bomb is lit, and everyone is saved. Maybe they’ve already lit the candle fuse when the Night King dies, and they have to try to rush back in and disarm their bomb before it pointlessly blows up the survivors…do they succeed or get incinerated trying? Who knows?
Possibly. Definitely human related. The NK doesn’t need siege weapons. I also wonder if Sansa’s reply to Jon is foreshadowing. To paraphrase:
Jon: There’s a 1,000 miles between us and King’s Landing.
Sansa: Cersei’s relentless.
I also recall the idea that a KL army would never march that far north being mentioned a couple of times throughout the series. Cersei is relentless, unhinged, and unfettered. She’s waiting for the rest of Westeros to be culled by the NK so she can finish off the conquest.
Sean C.,
As always, I’m looking at things in the matter of episode terms. The first episode will have Dany and Jon arrive in Winterfell. Then, Dany will probably have to deal with Sam and get introduced to the Starks (and Gendry – I can’t believe Davos smuggled Robert’s son into Dragonstone under her nose and didn’t even bother to introduce him to its ruler! Bad manners, that.). A part of the episode will also probably update us on Cersei and the Golden Company. And Bran will want to discuss Jon’s parentage with him. By the time the episode ends, they will probably barely have learnt of the WallFall.
Episode Two, they will probably start by dealing with the emotional fallout from Bran’s news about Jon. Then the battle begins.
Plenty of ways to be emotionally badly prepared there. 🙂
To be honest I can only see it being Euron or Arya. Theres no way Jaime and Tyrion would be able to kill her because she will always have the mountain around with both of them. Euron may have ‘intimate’ moments with her next season and Arya could steal Qyburns face or something.
Yaga,
Uhmm,i’m pretty sure Bran considers more important the fact that the Wall has gotten torched and the WWs coming than Jon’s parentage,the first one is a more urgent situation than the second one,don’t you think ? Otherwise it makes Bran look like a total asshole .
Yaga,
Thank you for your reply: now I see on what assumptions your preditions are based, but…
1) The size of Winterfell is quite ambiguous in the show – we only see that it’s huge. And as a medievist I can say that even a small castle could host several thousand defenters and refugees (+ livestock). So, it’s legit to assume that Winterfell, just like Draginstone, will fit in whatever it needs to and that there won’t be any camping beyond the walls: in the worst case, people will take shelter in the crypts.
2). Retreat and speed. I was thinking about the Enpire Srikes Back, when I was writing that post. Basically, all the retreat stories are build out of the same blocks: transport means for the retreating party and some suicide squad or individual who distracts the enemy to win some precious minutes. In this particular case, the shoerunners have established that horses are faster than wights; so, if they put all and everyone on horseback, the reteat might work. However, they would need a suicide squad, which means that Jon would have to lead it and there is no Uncle Benjen anymore, and the dragon rescue was already used, etc. OK, I can imagine the retreat and even its relative success, but even in such case the losses should be huge, and huge losses would make further confrontation impossible: team Targ will have to retreat to the Vale or Dragonstone or Essos – they will need reinforcemetns, etc. But all those travels would be a waste of time for no good reason: the same result – midway victory for team Targ – can be achieved by making Winterfell to withstand the siege.
3) In terms of episodes, we all agree that the first episode should center around Jon and co. arriving to Winterfell and Jon’s true parentage reveal. But there is no need to hide that the Wall has already been breached. All the reunions and revelations can effectively happen under the looming threat of the inevitable attack.
Uhm… GRRM may well have had this in mind when he named the Northern “capital”, but if so, I’m really annoyed. The -fell part of Winterfell seems to me to be a northern English dialect word, itself a loan from Norse (fjell/fjäll in modern Scandinavian), which means hill/mountain, especially one not as steep or rocky or high as a proper mountain (berg in modern Scandinavian). Northern England abounds with hills with “fell” in their names. There’s even a literary example, Wildfell in Anne Bronte’s The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. There it has nothing to do with some “wild” “falling” in that particular location. The word “fell” is nothing to do with the English verb “to fall”.
GRRM may indeed have played on words, but I’ll be disappointed in GRRM if the name of one of the most iconic places in this saga turns out to be a lame pun. uuugh. Just my personal, linguist nazi opinion, of course. 🙂
As to how the story will go, I’m not averse to the idea of pivotal battles against the army of the dead/NK taking place in the North (like others above have commented, they already have the important characters there, as well as armies, dragonglass, Valyrian steel etc.) but I also really like the idea of selfish bitch Cersei having to face the NK and the ever growing army of the dead, lol! However, I feel that after the supernatural threat is defeated, it’s only fitting that humans have to sort out their human stuff last. We’ll just have to wait and see. Especially wait before we get to see, sigh.
talvikorppi,
Yeah,i’m not a fan of the time travel theories,it just feels cheap as hell and not something i would expect from GRRM . Yes i know about the Hold the Door thing but i think that was a one time thing and it wasn’t even time travel per se .
Yaga,
This is what I’ve been thinking for some time now. It would be the most climactic if both storylines were dealt with simultaneously. Plus I just don’t see the WW threat being dealt with til the very end. I’m imagining some sort of retreat back to KL from the Northern army to escape the WW threat (this is where I find things difficult to sort out… because the only way they would retreat and leave the North is if they absolutely had too). When they reach KL, Cersei bars the gates and doesn’t let them in, and as the WW army closes in Tyrion and maybe some other people (I’m kind of thinking Arya with her skills) sneaks into KL the same way Tyrion snuck out in S4. They open the gates so the Northern army can shelter in KL, and then the real final battle begins. Not sure how they would deal with Cersei inside the castle, I’m guessing they’d sort that out during the war against the NK or after.
Casso,
I like a lot of what you got going on here. It keeps the show as climactic as possible for as long as possible, which I think they are going to try to do. I’ve been having some thoughts that maybe Jon & Dany will have to split up this season (not in a relationship way but actually leaving each other’s side) to deal with both threats at the same time, and that maybe Dany ends up loaning Rhagael to Jon to fight the NK as she takes Drogon to KL to deal with Cersei. I do also like the idea of the NK just bypassing the North completely to head down to KL on Viserion to fuck up some shit down South and make the North retreat South to help them. I’ve been trying to think of reasons why the Northern army would want to head South instead of defending the North (I really really think that Cersei and the NK will have to be dealt with simultaneously in the finale), and it seems very logical that Jon would take his army South after hearing the NK already went down there and is threatening the entire city of KL. Jon is always fighting for the living, so this would all but force him to leave the North behind and protect the realm.
Ten Bears,
Maybe the final battle will just be everyone arguing and whinging with each other that they’ve had it worse than the others. Whomever comes out the biggest victim wins the Iron Throne.
Mr Derp,
Sounds about right. As a reflection on the fandom.
For clarification: Would the new monarch be the one who’s actually suffered the most, or the one who’s best at playing the victim card?
Because if it’s the latter – the one who bitches and moans the most, then one of the final scenes will be someone in the throne room announcing:
“I now proclaim Lord Robett of House Glover, First of His Name, Whinge of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms.
Long may he reign.”
–There could be an interesting situation where the Northern forces (Starks, Dany & Co, Free Folk, Night’s Watch remnants, etc.) retreat from a conquered Winterfell then head south only to be caught between the White Walkers/Army of the Dead and Cersei/Euron/Golden Company.
How would that play out?
–How will the expected return of Melisandre with or without the High Priestess add to the drama?
–Will we see Jaqen H’ghar and/or Daario in the mix as well?
Yup. Weapon against Army of the Dead. Detailed reasons to follow (maybe; gotta find my tinfoil hat). Nutshell version:
1. Trebuchet + controlled fire + multi-story set under construction = This is Cersei’s wildfire pots catapult plan from S2e5. Described first by (blackmailed) Lancel to Tyrion, then by Pyromancer Hallyne to Tyrion and Bronn.
2. Bronn explained and Tyrion agreed this was “a sh*t plan”, because the “c*nts trying to defend the city wind up burning it down.”
3. It doesn’t matter whether any more Mad King wildfire caches remain and can be found: Now that Cersei’s in power again, she would’ve commanded the pyromancers of the Alchemists Guild to work night and day making wildfire -just like she did the last time she was in power.
4. The last time, Tyrion commandeered Cersei’s wildfire stockpiles for his Blackwater Bay Fireworks Extravaganza.™ Now, there’s nobody around to countermand her production orders to the Alchemists Guild – or to warn her or the pyromancers why it’s a “sh*t plan.”
5. For other, long-winded reasons I’ve mentioned before, I think NK’s undead army will bypass Winterfell (or just send a splinter force) and head directly to KL first. The North is armed and ready. KL is not.
6. Very rough estimates from the show about population densities in the North vs. KL match up with the following illustration: Zombies traversing an ice bridge from Russia wouldn’t spend months wandering around Alaska – vast but sparsely populated (2 people per square mile). Rather, they’d head for the densely populated city of San Francisco (roughly same population as fictional KL), or better yet, to Los Angeles.
7. The NK’s abilities as a tactician shouldn’t be underestimated. For those of you scoring at home, by my reckoning Team WW has a 3-1 combat record so far. As Jon admitted to Lyanna Mormont, Jeor & NW lost at FotFM, and Jon & NW & Wildlings lost at Hardhome. After Dany & The Snow Patrol almost turned the stupid wight hunt into a win, NK led a furious comeback, poaching a dragon and breaching the Wall for a resounding victory. The only match-up I scored for the humans was by a razor-thin margin: in S6e5, accomplishing the mission objective of protecting ingrate Bran, thanks to Meera and MVP Hodor.
I don’t know why NK would lead his srmy around 490,000 sq miles of virtual nothingness in the North, when a prime target overflowing with 1,000,000 potential new “recruits” awaits in the south.
Lone Wolf,
In my episode-by-episode outline, I have the GC awaiting the escapees at the Neck – the easiest chokepoint to cut them off. I think it would be wonderfully symbolic if Cersei and the South tried to save themselves by cutting off the North with a wall or maybe a moat. Exactly like the North had saved itself by cutting off the wildings with the Wall – it would be cool to see them forced into the same situation they had forced other people into (and then resented when they rebelled against it)! It would really say some things about refugee crises.
(Also, I really want the visual of dragonfire melting Moat Cailin – or Cersei’s mini-Wall – down.)
I think that Mel’s story is already over. She will probably bring the Red Priests for an assist in the Final Battle, to make for interesting smoke monster and so on effects. Then die.
And, no. Their parts in the story are over.
Ten Bears,
He wouldn’t – he would spread them around (after all, the army is self-reinforcing), but head with the main bulk to Winterfell, where they have conveniently gathered for him.
You continue to purposefully omit one absolutely major thing in your theories. The NK is not human. He’s not even any other mortal being. He’s Death. He has no use for “clever” tactics, because in the end, Death always wins. And he has all the time in the world, too, so he can afford to be patient. He’s in no hurry. He isn’t trying to maximise his army count, his objective is to transform the world in his image. He’ll be slow and ruthless and methodical, because such is his nature. He won’t be using “human” tactics.
I think that it would be absolutely wonderful if Winterfell was captured and the army there defeated despite all the preparations and all the armies stationed there, despite all the hopes and resolve of all the people stationed there, despite the fact that Winterfell has been hard fought for and regained in the course of the show already. It would really show that the NK *is* more powerful than any human, and any human army or any human’s resolve, and underscore the need for out-of-the-box solutions – provided by Bran.
Plus, as I said, it would engender the wonderful parallel where the Northerners escaping South would be in exactly the same situation as the wildings before them – especially if the South tries to cut them off to save themselves, just like the North once did. I’d love to hear Tormund’s thoughts on the irony.
Yaga,
“You continue to purposefully omit one absolutely major thing in your theories. The NK is not human. He’s not even any other mortal being. He’s Death. He has no use for “clever” tactics, because in the end, Death always wins. And he has all the time in the world, too, so he can afford to be patient. He’s in no hurry. He isn’t trying to maximise his army count, his objective is to transform the world in his image. He’ll be slow and ruthless and methodical, because such is his nature. He won’t be using “human” tactics.”
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Yes, he’s patient, and he’s got “all the time in the world.”
But I have not “continued to purposely omit one absolutely major thing.” (I’m sure you didn’t intend this to mean I’m being disingenuous.)
I just don’t agree that the WWs are mindless automatons. They’re sentient. I do not think they are merely the embodiment of “death.”
I do think NK is trying to maximize his troop size. That is one tenet of the “new math” Jon Snow grasped, and the main reason why he made peace with the Wildlings.
Q: Why do you state that the NK’s “objective is to transform the world in his image”? That sounds like an “absolutely major thing” that I wouldn’t have overlooked.
I don’t recall anything like that. Can you refresh my memory?
God I hope not that would be wrong on so many levels. It could be Jon vs Cersei or the humans vs the white walkers but I feel fairly certain the castle is kings landing.
With every man and his dog now in the north there is no way Cersei dies early , it feels very much to me that she will be sitting around waiting to see what happens in the north so will be the final villain – unless it’s Dany who takes that title and that feels unlikely at this stage.
Sorry but got to disagree here, they are following the ending laid out by GRRM, the amount of money being spent will not be a factor. If Dany somehow ends up ruling despite Jon being the rightful heir and having the support of the people it will annoy a lot of people, that’s not bittersweet in my opinion. Sure Jon could die and they could have a child but I’m sure I’m not alone in hating that ending. It also renders the fact that we’ve followed Jon on a path and the S7 set-up for him to be king to be totally useless too.
Agree with this Euron won’t be the big bad, he’s just a piece on the board that makes the final victory for Jon a bit trickier. Euron is going to die either via Theon or Jon.
Jon Snowed,
“ If Dany somehow ends up ruling despite Jon being the rightful heir and having the support of the people it will annoy a lot of people, that’s not bittersweet in my opinion. Sure Jon could die and they could have a child but I’m sure I’m not alone in hating that ending. It also renders the fact that we’ve followed Jon on a path and the S7 set-up for him to be king to be totally useless too.”
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I’m with you on this. It wouldn’t be “bittersweet”; it’d be unfulfilling.
What might be the ultimate twist is Jon ends up ruling – but never learns his real identity because Bran and Sam are smart enough to realize that revealing that secret will cause too much upheaval, especially in the North.
The story will begin with the honorable Ned Stark concealing that Jon was really the heir to the Iron Throne – and conclude with Bran Stark keeping that secret.
House Monty,
Yes, they don’t want the dragons to die.
Jon Snowed,
Jon will be the one to survive. Daenerys will die. So will at least one of her dragons.
It could go any way: Rhaegal survives and becomes Jon’s after Daenerys and Drogon (two sides of the same character) die, Drogon survives and bonds to Jon as they raise hell together to finish what D started, or all the dragons die with Daenerys.