Game of Thrones Season 5 Episode 6 – Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken – Recap

GOT506_092014_HS_DSC_7718[1]

Tonight’s episode of Game of Thrones is sure to get people talking…and possibly screaming. With fewer stories in play, “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” was streamlined into focus, but did that make for a stronger result? Check out my thoughts on tonight’s episode after the break.

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section will contain spoilers! If you haven’t read the books yet, please check out our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!

At the House of Black and White…

Arya and Jaqen
Arya’s training in the House of Black and White reaches the next level. But initially she’s as impatient and curious as ever in her corpse-washing duties. The Waif introduces the game of lies to her, with Arya unable to judge if the other girl is telling the truth or not.

Jaqen visits Arya later and challenges her: who is she? And she is forced to admit, she is still Arya. Among the truths he forces from her in their game of lies, it seems she may not really hate the Hound. She calls a halt to the game, but the Faceless  Man observes that they never stop playing the game.

GOT506_111014_HS__DSC4988[1]Another day, Arya is back on floor scrubbing duties in the main temple when a poor man brings his dying daughter in. He pleads for help in ending the girl’s pain and suffering. Arya eases her passing by lying to her about how she once was ill, and how the waters of the fountain cured her. She shares the poison waters of the fountain with the sick child as Jaqen watches from the shadows.

As she looks after the girl’s dead body, Jaqen invites her deeper into the House of Black and White, into a room where the walls are adorned with hundreds- thousands- of faces.

No, Arya isn’t ready to become No One. But Jaqen explains she is ready to become someone else. 

Somewhere in Essos…

Jorah

Due to the run-in with the Stone Men last week, the Jorah and Tyrion Boat Show has become the Jorah and Tyrion Foot Show. Or Jorah and Tyrion, The Not Traveling Companions™. Either way, it’s a long walk to Meereen, they’re just getting started and Jorah is already tired of Tyrion’s chatter. In conversation, Tyrion accidentally is the first to inform Jorah that his father (Jeor Mormont, the late Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch) has died.

GOT506_093014_HS__DSC2714[1]Continuing their journey, the men trudge across fields with Tyrion asking some valid questions about Jorah’s choice to support Daenerys and her claim to the throne. (Because really, having dragons and surviving magic fire doesn’t mean you’ll be a good queen.) The men run afoul of a band of slavers led by Malko (who pretty much everyone will be calling Mr. Eko or Adebisi, I’m guessing), played by Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje.

Tyrion’s fast talking keeps both of them alive, and convinces the slavers to bring them to Meereen instead of Volantis since the fighting pits have been reopened. (Solid book reference: the tourney at Lannisport!) Jorah may have to fight for his life and Tyrion’s in danger of losing his favorite toy (spoiler alert: it’s his penis) but they’re alive for now and headed in the right direction.

In King’s Landing…

Littlefinger

Littlefinger arrives in King’s Landing (makes your own jetpack joke, I’ve used all mine up) to find the Lancel and the Sparrows interfering with business as usual. Is it just me or is Lancel like the Percy Weasley of the Seven Kingdoms in this episode? Littlefinger lays his wit on the Sparrow and take himself off to Cersei.

The Queen Mum continues to deny it’s her fault that Loras was arrested, fooling exactly no one. Cersei and Littlefinger engage in a nice fit of sparring to get to the point- can Cersei rely on the Knights of the Vale? Littlefinger says that the knights will be loyal to the throne. Of course, he didn’t say which throne or which king, did he. (I see you, Petyr.)

And then he reveals that he knows where Sansa is, and that she’s marrying the Bolton boy, completing ruining the Bolton/Lannister alliance. Well done. His plans are becoming more evident now. He recommends letting Stannis and Roose fight it out before stepping in.

He also wants to be named Warden of the North if his knights help out. Naturally she wants Sansa’s head as part of the deal.

GOT506_102914_HS_DSC_1267[1]Olenna Tyrell, the Queen of Thorns returns to King’s Landing after learning of her grandson Loras’s arrest for his sexual deeds. Her tart-tongue is unable to bring Cersei down a peg, and the preliminary trial of Loras Tyrell will carry on.

The High Sparrow questions Loras and Margaery, with both siblings denying any “buggery” or any knowledge of it, in Margaery’s case. It seems like they’ll have no evidence until the prosecution brings in…Olyvar, aka New-Ros. Remember when he admired Loras’s birthmark that was shaped like Dorne? And then Margaery walked in? Yeah we knew that was coming back to haunt them somehow. Given that he can identify Loras in the buff, they decide there’s enough evidence to go ahead with a trial. And since Margaery lied before the holy court, she’s going up on charges too.

Tommen is helpless to act against the power of the church. Cersei casts a fantastically smug glance in the direction of the Queen of Thorns. No more subtle sparring between these great ladies- this is all-out war.

Meanwhile in Dorne…

GOT_MP_101114_EP506-5395[1]

Trystane and Myrcella walks in the gardens having a romantic moment, planning to get married, while Doran and Areo Hotah look on.

Just outside the Water Gardens, Jaime and Bronn pull up (with Bronn delivering a fantastic, episode-highlight version of “The Dornishman’s Wife”) and get ready to rescue the princess.

GOT_MP_101314_EP506-5561[1]Ellaria and the Sand Snakes prepare to strike, knowing the men are coming. Jaime and Bronn sneak onto the grounds, and find the young couple kissing again. Their attempt to get Myrcella away from the prince is stalled by Trystane (satisfyingly punched out by Bronn)- and Nymeria’s whip. The Snakes have arrived.

Obara and her spear take on Jaime Lannister, while Bronn fends off the other sisters. Nymeria grabs Myrcella to run off but their escape is thwarted by Areo Hotah and his men. The Sand Snakes and Jaime and Bronn are all forced to surrender, along with Ellaria.

At Winterfell…

Sansa and Theon

Ramsay and Sansa’s wedding day has come (landed with a thud, really) and Myranda presents herself to the bride as help. She assists Sansa with washing the black dye from her hair, and then shows her real cause for being there- casually mentioning more of Ramsay’s misdeeds, including his past lovers and sketchy mentioning of “hunting.” But Sansa’s onto her game, after their last interaction. She’s Sansa Stark of Winterfell, and she sends this creep packing.

Sansa refuses to hold Theon’s arm, walking down the aisle. He looks nearly as miserable as she does. Everyone waits in the godswood, even Myranda glowering from the sidelines.

And this is the point at which I think most people were hoping Sansa would go kamikaze on Ramsay and stab him in the throat. Unfortunately that did not happen. They were married, with Reek barely able to speak the name of Theon as he played his role in the ghastly proceedings.

Reek accompanies the newlyweds up to their chambers, and Ramsay orders him to stay, to watch. After ripping Sansa’s dress and throwing her down, Ramsay rapes her but we don’t actually see it- we only see the horror and breaking in Reek’s eyes as he watches.

Theon

Highlights

The Dornishman’s Wife: Finally a new song in the show world! And sung by Jerome Flynn, who has the pipes for it. I couldn’t stop grinning in this moment.

Learning to lie: Arya had a lot of great development in this episode with even her lie to the little girl holding some pieces of sad truth (the mentions of her father, for instance), and it was interesting to see the Hound brought up (hmmm) and to see which things Arya chose to lie about. The moment when Arya goes into the room of faces was a jaw-dropper for me- that’s an incredible piece of work there, exactly how I envisioned it.

Tyrion & Jorah in conversation: these are two intelligent actors who play off each well. I love that Jorah learned about his dad dying, so there was a human moment there between them before the slaver shenanigans went down. The dwarf cock business was a bit silly but I always like seeing Tyrion talk his way out of trouble.

Dorne in action: I enjoyed the fight sequence. I love a good bullwhip and Obara was kicking ass with that spear. It was chaotic with two fights at once but it was well done. What I’m really looking forward to: I need to see Areo Hotah using that longaxe.

The Queen of Thorns: welcome back!

Sansa’s wedding dress: absolutely beautiful Northern style. Too bad about the groom.

Meh:

Young love: Trystane and Myrcella are pretty tepid. Trystane doesn’t seem like he belongs with the rest of the Martells either.

Uncategorizable:

That finish. So yeah that thing with Sansa. I’m probably going to have to mull over it a while longer to work through my feelings on the matter. In-universe, I understand who Ramsay is and that this is in his character, to do these things. I also understand if Sansa is playing the role of Jeyne Poole, she’s taking on the plot aspects of Jeyne and that includes rape. The larger question is then, if the show is making the adaptation choice to remove significant chunks of storylines and shift timelines, as they do, why was it necessary to keep this part? Why decide that Ramsay’s torture and rape-soaked storyline is more significant than Sansa’s book storyline? I’m sure the show writers have their reasons for why they do what they do, they are not whimsical choices,  but I think that in this case, the show should consider whether they really needed to add more rape as a dramatic device. Because ultimately I think that’s what this is: adding in rape to make Sansa and Theon more likely to revolt, and flip on the Boltons. But I think the writers are clever enough to pull that off without a scene like the one we had tonight.

414 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. inb4 more tears surrounding the happenings of fictional characters in a fictional world.

      But let’s talk about the ridiculously large amount of edit jumps and terrible choreography in the Sand Snails v JaBronn fight. It very nearly killed the episode and disrupted the flow considerably. D&D really need to take a step back and re-evaluate how they do fight scenes from here on out.

        Quote  Reply

    2. Let’s get this started, shall we?

      My knee-jerk reaction is to tear my eyeballs from my face and smash my head against a wall, but I’ll forgo it for a while longer to see how this pans out.

      What were they thinking…?

      Edit: That Dorne fight was disgraceful. Undoubtedly the worst fight scene this show has ever produced.

        Quote  Reply

    3. I don’t like Arya scenes anymore. May have to skip them now, like other people do. Because most people are bored of that crap.

        Quote  Reply

    4. Tough to respond to that episode. The Sand Snakes were a bit of a non-event, the highly-trained warrior women being unable to take out two men, one of whom has one hand. I mean, what? Really? After all that talk about how they each chose a weapon and specialized in it until they were proficient in its use? Um, no, apparently.
      Nothing but good things in Essos and King’s landing.
      Sansa…look, this is a story set in what is effectively the Middle Ages. Wedding nights were presumably not all that much fun for any woman, so Sansa’s fate is only slightly more appalling than expected. I’m just disappointed because we went from Sansa the Victim to Sansa the Player to Sansa the Victim back again.

        Quote  Reply

    5. What’s to mull over? That was a terrible decision, an awful thing to have to watch, and my personal final straw. No more tv show for me.

      D&D just don’t understand the heart of this story.

        Quote  Reply

    6. While I don’t think the rape was absolutely necessary, I’ll take this Sansa arc over the book one, where she’s basically moping around the Eyrie. Same with Jaime in the Riverlands. Not very compelling material for TV, if you ask me.

      While I didn’t “like” the scene per se, I was really shocked, and it was a while since the show managed to do that. Not even the Red Wedding did that, because as a book reader, I knew it was coming. So yeah, kudos to Cogman and D&D.

      Sadly, this’ll just be taken as an excuse to bitch, whine and complain about how D&D are assholes who enjoy “ruining” the precious source material, or how “rape-happy” the show is, yada yada yada.

      http://cdn.gagbay.com/2012/06/shh_no_tears-92100.jpg

        Quote  Reply

    7. Deceptively Calm Scientist,

      ‘Nuff said. This was season two Sansa again, not the character we saw at the end of four and early in five. Anyone saying this is all part of some plan is full of it–this was shoving character development out the window just so the show could crap on Sansa

        Quote  Reply

    8. Surprised to see you thought the fight scene in Dorne was well done Sue, both of the family members I was watching with immediately said wow this is terrible fight choreography, and I totally agreed probably worst fight scene of the series imo. All of the Dorne stuff has fallen flat for me so far this year unfortunately. As for the rest of the episode my favorite part was the Tyrion and Jorah stuff, the Arya scenes, and the Littlefinger and Cersie scene. As for Sansa…… Yikes don’t even want to go there feeling very very conflicted

        Quote  Reply

    9. I’m going to come off more or less pro D&D here, but if your first thought was “they weren’t graphic enough showing the rape” my god do you need some serious help.

      It’s not as if the show went out of their way to add this and I’ve seen a bunch of criticism to that effect. It could’ve happened offscreen sure, but Theon needs something really fucked up to happen to even consider betraying Ramsey. Secondly, it *is* Ramsey- I’m not sure what direction people thought that was going in but I was pleasantly surprised it wasn’t *worse* (beastiality is/was an option for them to turn to, for example). As far as ruining book Sansa, what book Sansa? She’s barely involved. The Harry stuff is easily replaceable. I hope this isn’t taken the wrong way- but would what happened even be considered rape in the context of Westeros? Obviously WE see it as rape, but the series makes it sound like wedding nights like this happen quite often. I’m not trying to trivialize anything, I just understand the decision within the story’s context but maybe I’m missing a really obvious alternative.

      The Sand Snakes have 2 (3?) conversations in the books. They haven’t done anything yet. So yeah they suck, but it’s not worse than the books and I have to assume their involvement (in both) is only because of something with the future.

      Speaking of characters one can only assume is doing something unseen for the future- is LF going to take Varys’s place? Show Varys doesn’t really need anyone dead as much as book Varys, given that he’s tied his wagon to a stronger regent, and I’m starting to think everything LF has done is to create general chaos…there’s no way he’d hitch his wagon to Cersei at this point and there’s also no way the Lords of the Vale would go fight Winterfell. I dunno what his ambition actually is, but surely there’s no realistic avenue to becoming warden of the north.

      Also lol to the Arya haters who just insist that D&D are cutting her out.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Based on the thousands of tweets and facebook postings, this might have been a disastrous decision. Remains to be seen. I personally am fine with the decision. It’s fiction. It moves the plot. It serve a purpose. Of course the scene bothers me, but it’s meant to. The decision to do the scene doesn’t bother me.

      But the vitriol I’ve seen in the social media postings, in a season where already the ratings are kind of flat, is not good. People are pissed, truly. And it’s not book related or anything like that either. It seems to be more a negative reaction to the sense that D&D utilize rape too much. Now is that true? I don’t think so. But that doesn’t matter really because that’s what people seem to believe, which is all that matters.

      Again, though, remains to be seen if there is any negative impact. It’s real easy to say you’ll never watch again, but actually doing that is two different things. We’ll see. But no doubt this is the most negative reaction I’ve seen to this series thus far.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Morgoth,

      It’s not an excuse. Trust me, there’s nothing we’d like to see more than a show that can engage mature subject matter with maturity, respect, and thought. For example, the Sansa chapter GRRM just released had her flirting with men to manipulate them. This show took away the abilities they’de promised to give her, cannon abilities, for shock value. If Brienne was in clear danger but didn’t draw her sword, it’d be stupid. Same thing.

        Quote  Reply

    12. Wow, this episode. First off, I loved Arya’s scenes. She finally understands that death is not always about vengeance and learned that it can be a gift. All of her scenes were excellent. I actually really liked Dorne, as well. I loved when Hotah tells Jaime that he would’ve loved a fight with him when he was “whole” haha. King’s Landing was excellent and I’m so shocked that they actually arrested Marg in addition to Loras. This episode as a who was overflowing with awesome, except…

      The Sansa scene. I just want to first point out that in general, I don’t have an issue with rape scenes in movies/tv/books. I am a guy, I read all the books multiple times, and I’m anything but a prude. That being said, I think that it was a huge misstep to go that route with Sansa. Her character was supposed to be progressing this season and this was a huge step backwards. When she put Myranda in her place I was so proud of her. D & D could’ve gone several ways with that scene and that’s the one they choose? Re-victimizing Sansa all over again?

      And those of you clamoring for nudity and whatnot in that scene are fucking degenerates. It really makes me wonder about some of you hiding behind your keyboards and what some of you do in your spare time. SMFH

        Quote  Reply

    13. There were points during that Dorne fight where I could swear SS swords were waiting to be struck by Jamie/Bronn…

      Mostly everythnig else was pretty incredibly done – I also will have to reserve judgment for that last scene.

      Also, Littlefinger has quickly become the dumbest part of this season. The fact that he left the North with no consideration from the Boltons, and turned his back on them that easily, is quite the joke. Comon D&D.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Yung Wolf:

      But let’s talk about the ridiculously large amount of edit jumps and terrible choreography in the Sand Snails v JaBronn fight. It very nearly killed the episode and disrupted the flow considerably. D&D really need to take a step back and re-evaluate how they do fight scenes from here on out.

      In this case, there was very little time to direct at the Alcazar. With more time, I imagine the fight scene would have been better. I liken this to the Season 2 Iceland scenes, which also had time pressures and a less-than-optimal quality to them.

      In general, though, the fight scenes are not the strength of the show. I’m at peace with that.

        Quote  Reply

    15. I’m afraid the Sand Snakes are as bad as some had expected.

      Sean Collins made a good point about the rape scene:

      http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/recaps/game-of-thrones-recap-stark-reality-20150517

      In the books, the victim is a character we don’t know much and has little agency. In the show, the victim is a main character who is gaining more agency in each episode (and was pretty badass in the previous scene with Myranda).

        Quote  Reply

    16. Once again, D&D get in the most “trouble” when they include a TV adaptation of a book scene. Makes me think they might be better off not being so loyal to the books.

        Quote  Reply

    17. You don’t think Sansa’s learned from all of her hardships by now? She’s survived Joffrey. She’s gotten BIG HINTS about how terrible Ramsay is, several of which Myranda gave her earlier in the episode. She went ahead with the marriage. She had to have SOME idea of what to expect.

      Either way, I like to give Sansa more credit and see this as part of her endgame.

        Quote  Reply

    18. The scenes with Arya were great.

      I was quite impressed by the King’s Landing stuff too, especially the Queen of Thorns.

      Dorne was a mixed bag. Bronn was cool, but the Sand Snakes once again come across as trying too hard to be cool and failing. I did like that Trystane wouldn’t stand aside from Myrcella. Even though he was outmatched severely, it showed some courage.

      Sansa. I’d… love to have more faith in the show when it comes to sensitive topics like this, but after the sept scene with Jaime and Cersei last season, I do not automatically believe that distasteful, traumatic events are always added for the sake of character development rather than shock value. Arya’s story in Bravos is deemed important enough to stand on its own, in spite of the lack of other important characters there. Sansa’s in the Vale is not. Instead, her story is taken away and she’s moved into someone else’s plot: namely, Theon’s. I feel like this is several steps backwards for her. I’m not demanding for everything to be easy for her, now that she’s learned so much. But I am amazed that she’s not written as trying anything to manipulate Ramsay, particularly when she’s learned so much about him from the dinner scene with the Boltons and from the bath scene with Myranda. It could be that what she’s learned is that she’s way further out of her depth than she or Littlefinger ever expected, and, therefore, she’s frozen in place. But what is the point of this for her character? If it just ends in her running away from a place where she’s being abused, she’s already done that. Her character shouldn’t be just treading water. She should be about more than just suffering.

        Quote  Reply

    19. BrightroarsBane:
      Morgoth,

      It’s not an excuse. Trust me, there’s nothing we’d like to see more than a show that can engage mature subject matter with maturity, respect, and thought. For example, the Sansa chapter GRRM just released had her flirting with men to manipulate them. This show took away the abilities they’de promised to give her, cannon abilities, for shock value. If Brienne was in clear danger but didn’t draw her sword, it’d be stupid. Same thing.

      Please. It’s not like D&D remaked Irreversible. It was handled quite maturely. It wasn’t graphic, and the fade-to-black came quickly enough.
      Didn’t care for the sample chapter, tbh. Seriously, I don’t understand why people are up in arms about this, when the books are filled with way more horrible things. But it’s GRRM, and no-one can criticize him I guess.

      Btw, people need to stop with the “bad choreography” crap.

        Quote  Reply

    20. Honestly? I think at this point, the Sand Snakes can walk onscreen and people scream hate at them.

      The fight scene was good. Maybe the editing wasn’t perfect but overall the fight was very good, and it had some amazing moves.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Daeron:
      Speaking of characters one can only assume is doing something unseen for the future- is LF going to take Varys’s place? Show Varys doesn’t really need anyone dead as much as book Varys, given that he’s tied his wagon to a stronger regent, and I’m starting to think everything LF has done is to create general chaos…there’s no way he’d hitch his wagon to Cersei at this point and there’s also no way the Lords of the Vale would go fight Winterfell.

      Yeah, I think you may be onto something. It doesn’t seem to make sense for both Littlefinger and Varys to be in King’s Landing. It makes more sense for Littlefinger to kill Kevan and Parcelle to create chaos than Varys at this point in the story.

        Quote  Reply

    22. I get the Sansa scene was tough to watch, but rape isn’t the right word for it. She didn’t say no, she wasn’t unwilling- Ramsys consummated the marriage and wasn’t very considerate of his new bride. He’s a bad guy.

      The only real nit pick I had was the queen being arrested by the FM in front of the Kings guard. Why does Cersi still have personal kings guard but the actual queen does not?

        Quote  Reply

    23. Sue the Fury:
      Honestly? I think at this point, the Sand Snakes can walk onscreen and people scream hate at them.

      The fight scene was good. Maybe the editing wasn’t perfect but overall the fight was very good, and it had some amazing moves.

      In your opinion. If there is so much dislike and criticism of the Sand Snakes from the better portion of the fanbase then we must be on to something.

      Any decent choreographer would cringe at what took place in that scene. It was jarring and all over the place. It was so bad that it looked like they were play-fighting. Nothing had any impact and every movement was lazy from both sides.

      And that’s a fact, not an opinion.

      /TywinMoment

        Quote  Reply

    24. I don’t love the fact that they brought Sansa to Winterfell, but the “out of character” stuff doesn’t really hold much water until we see how the season progresses. What could she possibly have done differently that wouldn’t have ended worse for her?

      I don’t think the Sand Snakes themselves are terrible, the storyline just seems like a meh way for Jaime to kill some time. Which is fine because, again, they’ve done nothing in the books (yet).

        Quote  Reply

    25. BrightroarsBane:
      Morgoth, For example, the Sansa chapter GRRM just released had her flirting with men to manipulate them.

      Did anyone actually think the show was going to stick to book version of Sansa staying in the Vale with Harry the Heir and all that? In the books it might be important for the end game, but in the short run her story in the Vale seems to be among the least interesting ones of the POV characters in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Yung Wolf: In your opinion. If there is so much dislike and criticism of the Sand Snakes from the better portion of the fanbase then we must be on to something.

      Any decent choreographer would cringe at what took place in that scene. It was jarring and all over the place. And that’s a fact, not an opinion.

      /TywinMoment

      Do you know many decent choreographers, my lord?

        Quote  Reply

    27. Great John:
      I get the Sansa scene was tough to watch, but rape isn’t the right word for it. She didn’t say no, she wasn’t unwilling- Ramsys consummated the marriage and wasn’t very considerate of his new bride. He’s a bad guy.

      The only real nit pick I had was the queen being arrested by the FM in front of the Kings guard. Why does Cersi still have personal kings guard but the actual queen does not?

      I’m just gonna roll my eyes and point out that marital rape is a thing (though not in the context of Westeros) and it’s not not-rape just because you want to still have your teeth by the end of it.

        Quote  Reply

    28. If they were going to go this route with the Ramsay/Sansa bedding scene they should have at least left out the screams. If they did that and just focused on Theon’s reaction I don’t think the negative reaction would be as severe. Also a huge mistake to end the episode with that scene.

      Of course the smartest choice would have been to never go that route in the first place. The fact that she is a Stark would be enough of a justification for toning down Ramsay’s sadism towards her. They could have just had them consummate the marriage without any violence or aggression and there would have been few complaints.

      I’m not sure what they were expecting the reaction to be ending an episode with a scene like that. Were they trying to shock the audience to recreate a Red Wedding like reaction? A scene like that may shock viewers but not in the good way like the Red Wedding.

        Quote  Reply

    29. not particularly happy. It just doesn’t feel like it use to, watching game of thrones a few seasons back

        Quote  Reply

    30. Sansa’s got one weapon at her disposal, just like Cersei told her way back when.

      It’s ugly, but in the context of the story setting, absolutely true. There was no other way for Sansa to get fully onto the game board.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Yung Wolf,

      It was the worst fight scene in the show’s history. It felt mechanical and staged. Just terrible. Doran better be the focus of the rest of the Dorne scenes.

        Quote  Reply

    32. JamesL:
      A scene like that may shock viewers but not in the good way like the Red Wedding.

      I think they’re already used to people whining. Also, I wonder why it’s more acceptable to witness the violent slaughter of a bunch of people, plus a mother and son (and the son’s wife).
      Why is graphic violence a “good way” to shock people?

        Quote  Reply

    33. ak,

      I thought LF’s plan became evident and makes perfect sense, but maybe I’m overlooking something here.

      No one ever thought that LF was actually allying himself with the Boltons. Now we know exactly why he did this. He installed Sansa in the North, and now that Cersei knows Sansa and the Boltons are getting comfy and basically giving the middle finger to the Lannisters, she’s okaying Petyr to attack Winterfell with all the power of the Vale. So, the Boltons and Stannis beat the shit out of each other, and Petyr sweeps in at the end and takes them both out in one fell swoop. He also could possibly have a hand in taking Cersei down later this season. So with the Boltons, Stannis, and Cersei out, no one stands in his way, and he probably plans on marrying Sansa.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Sue, thank you for the recap. I agree, I think this was a misstep. I haven’t seen the episode yet, and to be honest, for the first time since the series began, I don’t want to. The description is enough. I know rape is portrayed in the books. But that doesn’t mean I’m willing to watch it happen to a young woman on-screen. Yes, she is a fictional character, but one I’m emotionally invested in. I’ll give it a miss, thanks.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Seeing this episode, I’m thinking Sansa’s ark this season is very much like Lisbeth Salander. If you’re familiar with the Dragon Tattoo books you’ll see a situation that is kinda similar to what we saw today.

      A young woman who’s been systematically abused since a young age but with great resilience. You could say that Sansa’s today was like Lisbeth with Bjurman, they both made themselves a “victim” in order to gain power and both miscalculated their enemy and got badly hurt in the way. I hope I’m right, and we could see a great revenge from Sansa just like we had with Lisbeth.

        Quote  Reply

    36. middlejon,

      D&D just don’t understand the heart of this story.

      You mean the heart of the story that gets kicked off by a character murdering a baby then raping the baby’s mom to which GRRM makes sure to remind readers that the baby’s blood and brains are still on his hands as he rapes her, after he is done he kills her too.

      The heart of that story?

        Quote  Reply

    37. I liked this episode a lot, but I have to agree with some here that the fight with the Sand Snakes was pretty weak. For the lack of a better word, it wasn’t “flowing” well. Maybe it was just because seeing someone fighting with a whip looks a bit strange. I mean there are real life weapons which are essentially whips like the Urumi, but they’re more like flexible swords, so you can go for a kill with it. Maybe they should have designed something around the Urumi for the show.

      Also, am I crazy or does the dead person in the first scene with Arya change in one shot or two? First the hair is white and the face looks old and then the hair goes to black and the person has a junger face only to go back to the first version at the end. If that really is a continuity error then I have to say it’s a pretty bad one.

        Quote  Reply

    38. I mostly agree with criticism that Sansa’s rape comes at the expense of her narrative arc. I haven’t minded many of the book changes- I like the idea of condensing story and gathering characters we’re already invested in to one place. But both show and book has been slowly building to the idea of Sansa being more proactive, and it still hasn’t happened yet. Lighting the window candle after the fact is way more disappointing than- even attempting and failing- making a plan on her own in advance.

      She had plenty of warning from seeing Theon to Myranda’s bath stories to conclude that Ramsey was unhinged and violent, but we didn’t see Sansa consider this information and try to adjust to it. Even if it hadn’t made a difference, an attempt at manipulation or the like would’ve continued the character arc.

      Also, Dothraki doggy style rape made sense for that culture. Anyone defending how a medieval wedding night would’ve been rape no matter what so this really wasn’t a shock fest. If you want to pretend purism, it wouldn’t have happened like this in the Middle Ages. It definitely would be rape regardless, but there’d be no additional humiliation of the dress tearing, bent over, with a torture slave witness.

      Speaking of, the main problem I have with this scene is not that it wasn’t expected given Ramsey, because obviously, but that I felt the entire purpose of the scene was to motivate Theon into breaking out of Reek finally. Sansa’s characterization was sacrificed for Theon’s arc. The shock factor was for the benefit of his future story development. That’s a disgusting reason to orchestrate an over the top rape scene; and the biggest possible insult to the victim.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Abyss:
      Also, am I crazy or does the dead person in the first scene with Arya change in one shot or two? First the hair is white and the face looks old and then the hair goes to black and the person has a junger face only to go back to the first version at the end. If that really is a continuity error then I have to say it’s a pretty bad one.

      That was a deliberate montage, to show Arya was spending her days preparing lots of corpses.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Morgoth,

      Because it goes against Sansa’s character development not to at least try talking to Ramsey or seducing him. It isn’t faithful to the books because Jeyne’s and Sansa are very different characters, and even with the fade to black, we know Sansa is suffering terribly. If it was book faithful, she would do what she tried to do with Harry, and charm Ramsey into liking her. But instead of forcing Ramsey into Harry’s role, they’re forcing Sansa into Jeyne’s role, and Sansa is supposed to be a more central character. If this was part of Sansa’s plan, the show should have shown us that. It didn’t, and I don’t have infinite reserves of trust for D&D any longer.

        Quote  Reply

    41. The Water Gardens fight scene was ok to my eyes. But it seems that the majority of the GOT fanbase is consisted by fight scene choreography experts. Shame that the producers didn’t employ one of them instead of the one they already have.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Chrysee: I’m just gonna roll my eyes and point out that marital rape is a thing (though not in the context of Westeros) and it’s not not-rape just because you want to still have your teeth by the end of it.

      Thank you.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Daeron,

      Agreed. All she could have done is act like she was into it and charm Ramsay, which is what I wanted. BUT, now that I’ve had time to think about the scene, I guess that would have been out of character. Sansa’s losing her virginity to someone that she’s only recently discovered has a VERY dark side. Then he orders Theon to watch. I think for her to have then seduced Ramsay would have been absurd. I think that everyone (me included) are bound to have a knee jerk negative reaction to something so awful happen to Sansa, especially after she’s been through so much. I’m not saying it’s necessary, BUT:
      – It gives her a taste of what Theon has gone through, and also shows her how much Theon cares for her (he was really torn up.)
      – It confirms Myranda’s stories, and Sansa now knows that Ramsay is bad news.
      – It hopefully makes it that much sweeter when Sansa slits his throat (please!?)

      So, it advances the plot, and I think is in character. It just sucks to see this happen to Sansa, and sucks to see her being victimized. But hopefully, instead of being passive like she did with Joffrey, it incites her to rebel against her captors and take revenge.

        Quote  Reply

    44. I haven’t rewatched this episode yet, which is odd as I usually do straight after viewing it once… I guess I don’t want my anger to rise.

      I have no problems with Sansa been raped. I guess I knew it was coming and even though it is distasteful seeing Sansa victimized yet again, I guess this will add venom to her revenge and it was done well, feeling the horror and sadness thru Theon’s eyes.

      What I can’t forgive is the many other scenes that just felt Flat or at worst poorly written or uncharacteristic.
      The Dorne scenes were the worst… That fight scene was very underwhelming, even Bronn suffered with his last retort about fighting little girls and that awful reaction from Tyene. Ugh. Areo arriving so late also had me wondering was he and the other Dornish guards just sitting up on the balcony, placing bets on the outcome until they too decided this fight was too stupid to carry on watching. (Getting a little but snarky here but I was hoping for some SS redemption.
      That Tyrion/pirates scene was Terrible… probably Peter’s worst bit of acting but I’m going to blame the writer.. First the fighting pits are closed but Jorah can make alot of money for them if you go there…? The cock joke just got stale and pointless.
      And Olenna… was so looking forward to her return and yet she played basically submissive to Cersei’s mechanations… not one reminder that Cercei’s blaming a dangerous game, Olenna certainly had no restraint warning Tywin of sister-fucking rumours!!!???
      And finally Tommen… with 2 kingsguard behind him, allows his beautiful bride to be arrested… I would’ve forgiven this if it had been the only tilt in the episode but so much felt off that this has become my most disliked episode ever… and I’ve never felt this way about GOT.
      I did find the House of black & white dull too… and I like Arya!!!
      Still Sad 🙁
      Will try and watch again soon… I’m still in for the long ride and not sticking my head out of the window and crying “smells like shit”

        Quote  Reply

    45. Chrysee: I’m just gonna roll my eyes and point out that marital rape is a thing (though not in the context of Westeros) and it’s not not-rape just because you want to still have your teeth by the end of it.

      Roll your eyes all you want, Ramsys is gross, Sansa complied. It’s not rape. Jamie/Cersi was very rapey. The crows at Crastor’s were raping woman. What happend to Sansa was terrible, but in the context of the show its not rape, and I think it’s misleading to label it that. For one thing, it makes Sansa a victim, and depending on how the season plays out, her letting him have his way may be a part of her end game.

        Quote  Reply

    46. KG,

      If she was trying to seduce him, why doesn’t she use the information Myranda gave her? Ramsey hates boring sex, and she could have used that to her advantage. That would cut down on the rape angle and show her character development.

        Quote  Reply

    47. How coincidental that Jamie & Bronn arrived at the Water Gardens and located Myrcella precisely at the same time the Sand Snakes did. IMO, the Dorne plot is quite bad, to date.
      Perhaps I missed it, but was Little finger called back to KL just so that Cersie could say, “what’s up”?
      Regarding Sansa’s evening, I feel like D&D got exactly what they wanted from me. I felt like a sibling [Theon?], unable to help her. I kept hoping they’d stray even further from the books and I’d hear Stannis’ warhorn before consummation could occur. At least Reek wasn’t made to prepare her for Ramsay. So, there’s that.

        Quote  Reply

    48. JamesL:
      middlejon,

      You mean the heart of the story that gets kicked off by a character murdering a baby then raping the baby’s mom to which GRRM makes sure to remind readers that the baby’s blood and brains are still on his hands as he rapes her, after he is done he kills her too.

      The heart of that story?

      I’m being misunderstood 🙂 I don’t mean that the rape of a character is not part of this story. it’s more the fact that the show has written itself into a corner and the only way to get out of it is to have this awful thing happen. Asoiaf isn’t some horror porn devoid of all hope, filled with dispensable plastic characters . But that’s all I’m getting from Got right now. Shock for shocks’ sake.

        Quote  Reply

    49. BrightroarsBane:
      KG,

      If she was trying to seduce him, why doesn’t she use the information Myranda gave her? Ramsey hates boring sex, and she could have used that to her advantage. That would cut down on the rape angle and show her character development.

      What would Sansa know of different types of having sex? She was a virgin.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Great John,

      Are you bloody serious? No, it’s not considered rape in Westeros, but that’s exactly what it was. There was no indication Sansa was doing this as part of some plan–stop pretending like there’s something that makes this not rape. If you need to make up elements of the scene that weren’t there, you’re wrong.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Unbowed Unbent Unhodor,

      gewa76,

      I kind of agree. I’ll always watch, and this season has exceeded my expectations in some ways, but the thrill of the first 4 seasons isn’t there. Maybe that will change as we near the finale. I hope it does. And yes, I did feel the same way when I first read AFFC, but over the years I have grown to like the past two books, particularly when read together chronologically.

        Quote  Reply

    52. BrightroarsBane:
      Great John,

      Are you bloody serious? No, it’s not considered rape in Westeros, but that’s exactly what it was. There was no indication Sansa was doing this as part of some plan–stop pretending like there’s something that makes this not rape. If you need to make up elements of the scene that weren’t there, you’re wrong.

      Did he take her against her will?

        Quote  Reply

    53. Excellent episode. Sansa’s agency is growing, and that was perfectly displayed in her scene with Myranda. She is essentially a prisoner, and would have ended up dead had she attempted to resist and/or kill Ramsay. And the scene also sets up the final straw necessary for Reek to break, and become Theon again. Sansa is biding her time. She’s playing the game. And I am 99% certain that she’ll end up winning it. Remember Tyrion’s line to Sansa from season 2: “Lady Stark, you may yet outlive us all.” She’s a survivor, and perhaps one of the most intelligent characters in the show.

      Amazing how short-term thinking keeps fans from appreciating the show sometimes. This is a seven-season series. Character development takes its time.

        Quote  Reply

    54. After the rewatch, I got more pissed at the Dorne storyline than the Sansa/Theon storyline. Regarding the final scene….focusing on Theon’s and Sansa’s face, tearing the dress from behind and hearing the music with the voiced pain had more impact on me than any other overt option. This scene was telegraphed from early on this season, no surprise….but how Sansa and Theon react to the increasing madness and tension surrounding them for the rest of the season matters. I will be jumping for joy when the Boltons die slowly at the hands of Stannis and LF’s plans backfire, hopefully leading to his demise as well.

      But Dorne….it’s hard to comment because it was as bad as the Yara Dreadfort scene last year….and played out similarly. Thanks BC for that shit. Bronn was decent but damn he got nicked by the spear. Jaime’s reaction to seeing Myrcella and realizing who the SS are was interesting, but not redeeming. Ellaria is just silly. Trystane is useless. Go Hotah.

      Braavos/Arya/HoB&W: Made my season. They are serious about that arc. “You are not ready to be No One but are ready to be Some One. Great line.

      KL: I fucking hate the homophobic crap. Can’t they play on something else? Oh well, I’ll deal. Kill Lancel already please! Harsh treatment for Queen Marg indeed….hard to believe that the KG didn’t slaughter the people manhandling Marg….but I know where it’s going and it feels like it will twist soon. Come on, QoT…kick some ass! Cersei…you lovely, hateful, spiteful bitch. LF the chaos generator is reaching too far. Doesn’t look good for Loras though….

      Tyrion/Jorah: Good convo about Jorah’s father, Dany worship, and Tyrion trade scenarios, but the best fighter in Westeros was bitch-slapped by a few slavers? Not convincing. At least they are headed in the right direction again.

      Mixed episode for me as well. BC’s drama goes from great to crap in a few shots.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Morgoth,
      I don’t like the fact they had Ramsay rape Sansa but I am not horribly offended by it either but I know that other people are. And I knew before the episode aired that a scene like this would cause backlash and the question is did D&D know that? And if they did, do they just not care?

      You can argue about why we view sexual violence as more offensive than other forms of violence in entertainment all you want but that’s the way it is and D&D should be more self aware about this stuff in order to avoid backlashes against the show like this. It’s not just obnoxious nerds on the internet bashing the show now, lots of viewers are and it even causes the media to turn against the show and as a fan I would prefer that not to happen so I wish they were smarter about this stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    56. middlejon: I’m being misunderstood I don’t mean that the rape of a character is not part of this story.it’s more the fact that the show has written itself into a corner and the only way to get out of it is to have this awful thing happen. Asoiaf isn’t some horror porn devoid of all hope, filled with dispensable plastic characters . But that’s all I’m getting from Got right now. Shock for shocks’ sake.

      Har, har. What books have you been reading?

        Quote  Reply

    57. Great John,

      Dude, no. This wasn’t laying back and thinking of England forced compliance. I understand attempting to make the distinction between unwanted marital relations both parties subject themselves to because that was the way things were done, or whatever. Sansa seemed to have resigned herself to that, awful as it is on its own. Ramsey purposefully made it a violent, humiliating rape. There’s a lot of possible ways to discuss the scene, but I can’t see denying it as rape a viable opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I thought last week was the best episode of the year, and it seemed like things were picking up. Tonight was very meh, and felt like a setback. When it opened with another 5 minute scene of Arya scrubbing corpses, I knew that was a bad sign. But I also think it will get better. GoT seasons always seem to drag in the middle episodes, before the big finish.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Brendon,

      I was trying to gather my thoughts regarding this issue, but you just said everything I was thinking. I agree on that, we feel disgusted now, and that’s understandable it’s a character we are emotionally invested.
      I also think that Sansa trying to “seduce” him wouldn’t make any difference. Just like with Daenerys, the fact that she was “willing” the first time, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t forced.

        Quote  Reply

    60. dothrakian raven:
      The Water Gardens fight scene was ok to my eyes. But it seems that the majority of the GOT fanbase is consisted by fight scene choreography experts. Shame that the producers didn’t employ one of them instead of the one they already have.

      No, the water garden fight scene was not okay, but not because of the choreography. It was poor because it lacked any tension in the sense that any character we liked was never in danger and we never felt like they were.

      Moreover, the Sand Snakes as “developed” (and I use that term loosely) on the show are such dreck that nobody is pulling for them. They have been cast clearly as “the redshirts”, and there isn’t anybody watching the show interested in seeing them win — nor fearing they might.

      So, no tension, one-sided fight scene in terms of emotional impact on the viewer, pre-ordained outcome = Much ado about nothing.

      The choreography was actually about the only thing about it that met the fair-to-middlin mark in terms of quality.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Virtus,

      This. She is a 16 year old virgin. She was undressing to have sex with the son of the man who murdered her brother, while the man she thinks murdered her other two brothers watched. I don’t understand the complaint that she wasn’t able to manipulate Ramsay by seducing him/having kinky sex.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Great John,

      I say this as someone who just posted in defense of the scene: yes, he took her against her will. One doesn’t have to say “no” for it to be rape- is that not obvious? Even if everything on screen seemed consensual (and how it would seem that way I do not know), the fact that it would be “consensual” because she knows physical harm comes to her if she puts up a fight very clearly makes it rape.

      In hindsight I worded my original post poorly. I wish I had said it wasn’t Westeros-unique rather than saying it wasn’t Westeros-rape. Even then, Theon’s presence would still be way out of line for a wedding night I would think.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Daamn, how can you react badly to the last scene? It was expected from Ramsay, anything less would have been out of character. Why are you all so sensible? Suddenly this place got full of social justice warriors that can’t seem to enjoy a very good product, known for its darkness and crude scenarios.

        Quote  Reply

    64. JamesL:
      Morgoth,

      You can argue about why we view sexual violence as more offensive than other forms of violence in entertainment all you want but that’s the way it is and D&D should be more self aware about this stuff in order to avoid backlashes against the show like this. It’s not just nerds on the internet bashing the show now, lots of viewers are and it even causes the media to turn against the show and as a fan I would prefer that not to happen so I wish they were smarter about this stuff.

      It’s just nerds on the internet bashing the show. Aren’t the nerds the ones who bash the show at every opportunity they get? A few weeks ago, because the “Edd, fetch me a block” line was changed. Then, because of the Sand Snakes’ shoes. And so on and on.
      Nerds always find a way to complain and compare D&D to Satan.
      The media can bitch all they want, I guess. If people can’t handle the material, or don’t like it, or whatever, no one forces them. Plenty of other tv shows to watch. But they continue to watch, so they can log to the internet and bitch some more.

        Quote  Reply

    65. BrightroarsBane:
      Morgoth,

      Because it goes against Sansa’s character development not to at least try talking to Ramsey or seducing him. It isn’t faithful to the books because Jeyne’s and Sansa are very different characters, and even with the fade to black, we know Sansa is suffering terribly. If it was book faithful, she would do what she tried to do with Harry, and charm Ramsey into liking her. But instead of forcing Ramsey into Harry’s role, they’re forcing Sansa into Jeyne’s role, and Sansa is supposed to be a more central character. If this was part of Sansa’s plan, the show should have shown us that. It didn’t, and I don’t have infinite reserves of trust for D&D any longer.

      Smh. What difference would that be? Can you imagine Ramsay being charmed by Sansa? The same Ramsay who enjoys to skin people alive in front of their children?
      No? Me neither.

      Now, imagine Ramsay falling in love with Sansa, being successfully seduced or charmed by her. Then people would be bitching about how “That’s not Ramsay!! D&D are butchering the character!”.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Yung Wolf:
      Morgoth,

      YEAH! Fucking pussies need to go watch Grey’s Anatomy!!!

      Amirite?!

      I didn’t say that, but whatever you say bro.
      I’m just saying that if you loathe a show so much, why even bother in continue watching? People always come here to say “I’m done with this show!!!” only to return and keep whining.

        Quote  Reply

    67. SteelWind,

      That was the point of my comment. The choreography itself was ok but the atmosphere around it was not so engaging and without tension, as you said. I actually felt that the tension was directed more to the fact that they were filming in a cultural monument than to the fact that they were fighting each other. Somehow the fight itself let this feeling lessen a bit and saved the scene. But it seems that there is an obsession with the actual fight scene itself and its choreography which seems very strange. On the other hand I must admit I am not an expert martial arts choreographer.
      On the other hand the whole Dorne plot Jamies arrival / SS +Ellaria meeting in the sanddunes was orchestrated around Myrcella and somehow this scene managed to give this sense of centrality to her. I am not saying that it was perfect but in the end it worked bearing the mind that the scene was rather short.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Thanks for the shout out Bronn!!!
      Hope that little nic you got itsn’t

      a curtain call waiting to happen. Would be a shame to lose Westeros’ resident badass to literally the least bloody injury ever shown on this series.

      But thems dornish are crazy with their

      manticore wine blades.

        Quote  Reply

    69. I also understand if Sansa is playing the role of Jeyne Poole, she’s taking on the plot aspects of Jeyne and that includes rape.

      Thing is, this plot could have easily been rewritten to avoid the bedding scene. The key point is that Theon bonds with [Jeyne/Sansa] and is motivated to break free of his conditioning. That doesn’t require that [Jeyne/Sansa] be brutally raped.

      Tyrion Pimpslap:
      This. She is a 16 year old virgin. She was undressing to have sex with the son of the man who murdered her brother, while the man she thinks murdered her other two brothers watched. I don’t understand the complaint that she wasn’t able to manipulate Ramsay by seducing him/having kinky sex.

      Sansa’s arc is about playing politics and manipulating people. That’s what we see her practicing in TWOW, for instance. The argument that it makes no sense for Sansa to be able to manipulate Ramsay (or even to try to do so, which we haven’t seen so far) is actually just another reason why this storyline is a terrible idea. Why would you give your protagonist whose chosen skill set is manipulation an antagonist who she can’t manipulate? That’s effectively no different from her previous situation, where she wasn’t manipulating anyone. It’s a complete non-starter as character development.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I agree. Even if someone like let’s say Margaery had made Sansa a master in seducing someone, there was no way in hell she would have been able to use that in that situation. You need to have a least some kind of power to do that and Sansa was as powerless as she could have been.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Uberstellar:
      Great John,

      Dude, no. This wasn’t laying back and thinking of England forced compliance. I understand attempting to make the distinction between unwanted marital relations both parties subject themselves too because that was the way things were done, or whatever. Sansa seemed to have resigned herself to that, awful as it is on its own. Ramsey purposefully made it a violent, humiliating rape. There’s a lot of possible ways to discuss the scene, but I can’t see denying it as rape a viable opinion.

      I’m partly being devils advocate here because I think people have lost their minds over this scene.

      I think you describe the real horror of the scene quite well- Ramsys intentionally makes it a humiliating rape. Which is why it is so gross.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Sean C.,

      Agree it didn’t necessarily have to be rape, and it certainly didn’t HAVE to be on screen, but something more than just bonding with the female character needed to happen. There’s no way in hell Theon is taking that risk without some sort of impetus.

        Quote  Reply

    73. All in all, I really liked this episode.

      My only problem was, like many have said, the Dorne fight scene was rather poorly edited.
      I did chuckle at Bronn’s comment to Tyene, but yeah, her reaction was pretty cheesy…
      That said, unlike some, I don’t really have a problem with the Sand Snakes in general, and I am interested in where the storyline goes.

      I’m willing to wait and see how the rape scene affects Sansa’s character arc before I pass judgement.

        Quote  Reply

    74. BrightroarsBane,

      Be …. cause she has no experience to seduce him with? That’s like asking me why I can’t walk down to Comerica Park and strike out the first three Tigers that come to the plate.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Yung Wolf,

      O you bloody well Do So…!!! lol

      Just leave it out. This post will become the most venomous and probably most argued topic without throwing ol’ LS in here.

      She’s Gone… I’ll miss her. Let me accept her demise in Peace 😛

        Quote  Reply

    76. Yung Wolf,

      And what… you don’t make the SAME damn points, over and over again? Do you think the manic frequency of your posts gives you some kind of authority to turn this site’s comment section into the toilet of GoT fandom?

      I don’t mind your posts when you share your opinions, but half the time all you do is piss on other posters.
      I’m a long time reader, and infrequent poster. People like you are a serious buzzkill. Why don’t YOU go away, and go back to tormenting people on Youtube comment boxes… For shit sake! It takes a lot for me to bother to post, but you are seriously chapping my ass with your dismissive and rude responses to people who disagree with you!

        Quote  Reply

    77. Brother lancel is the Percy Wesley of kings landing! Spot on! I was wondering if Arya got smacked bcuz she shouldn’t hate anyone. That’s what my mom always told me.

        Quote  Reply

    78. BREAKING NEWS

      On occasion, bad things happen to good people on Game of Thrones. I know, I know – I swear it’s happened a couple of times before.

      Jaime and Bronn – poppin tags, only got $20 gold dragons in their pocket…..

        Quote  Reply

    79. The Free Folk:
      Yung Wolf,

      And what… you don’t make the SAME damn points, over and over again? Do you think the manic frequency of your posts gives you some kind of authority to turn this site’s comment section into the toilet of GoT fandom?

      I don’t mind your posts when you share your opinions, but half the time all you do is piss on other posters.
      I’m a long time reader, and infrequent poster. People like you are a serious buzzkill. Why don’t YOU go away, and go back to tormenting people on Youtube comment boxes… For shit sake! It takes a lot for me to bother to post, but you are seriously chapping my ass with your dismissive and rude responses to people who disagree with you!

      Hear, hear!

        Quote  Reply

    80. SteelWind: No, the water garden fight scene was not okay, but not because of the choreography. It was poor because it lacked any tension in the sense that any character we liked was never in danger and we never felt like they were.

      Um – was anyone actually afraid for Tyrion in the Battle of Blackwater sequence? Like all bookreaders, I knew he was going to get wounded, but I never had any sense that he was in danger. It was a battle, but he was clearly going to survive, as most people probably knew. Have you ever been seriously worried about Jon, no matter how well the fights and skirmishes are staged? So why apply different standards to the fight in Dorne?

        Quote  Reply

    81. I thought the dramatic score in the Water Gardens scene was hysterical. All the costumed sneaks running around, when they can be fully observed from the many established balconies, culminating in interrupting the teenagers trying to get their snog on. It was basically a slap stick comedy routine. Gorgeous shooting locale though, I ignored the fight to focus on checking out all the background. That tile work!

        Quote  Reply

    82. It seems that some people think that Sansa’s arc is all about her baking lemon cakes and then inviting Ramsay and Theon to a bedding soire where all together sit and discuss about politcs and political games and where Sansa outshines them with her charm and witticism…

        Quote  Reply

    83. Ok
      Just let me ask a simple question : If Sansa in the show is plays Jayne Pool’s role
      So what will happen to the original story of Sansa ? The Game of Thrones and the pieces and the players and all of that ? I still can’t believe that D&D throw it all away !!
      I thought we will have some of it when Petyre & Sansa were together in the begging of this season , or just a small talk of Cersei or ANYTHING !! , Do you believe we have NOTHING from those lines ?!!! , The hiding dagger and all that ?!!
      Why D&D make her SO weak ?!!! , She carried a Knife in the books and none in the show !! , do you believe that ?!!
      I thought she had one under her clothes and she’ll try to stab Ramsey and he’ll beat her then you know
      not just let her kneel and obey everything he say without let her try to defend herself !!
      Sansa is changing from chapter to another and D&D doesn’t put that in the show

      Sansa now is the same since season 1 and she doesn’t change at all and thank you D&D !!

        Quote  Reply

    84. Pigeon:
      BREAKING NEWS

      Jaime and Bronn – poppin tags, only got $20 gold dragons in their pocket…..

      Paper currency in Westeros confirmed?!

        Quote  Reply

    85. dothrakian raven:
      It seems that some people think that Sansa’s arc is all about her baking lemon cakes and then inviting Ramsay and Theon to a bedding soire where all together sit and discuss about politcs and political games and where Sansa outshines them with her charm and witticism…

      QFT.

        Quote  Reply

    86. I disagree with their choice of including a scene like this with Sansa but I do have to defend them against a criticism I have seen. I have seen people criticize the scene because it focus on Theon and therefore they have made Sansa’s rape scene all about Theon and his feelings. This is not true, the reason it focuses on Theon is to avoid the scene being too graphic. It is basically a lose/lose situation for the show because if they focus on Theon they will be criticized for supposedly making the scene all about him but if they focus on Sansa during the rape it would be an even more disturbing and hard to watch scene that would cause even more offense.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Re: Sand Snakes fight scene

      So…

      …not saying the scene wasn’t cut like a Xena Warrior Princess fight scene but did no one but my wife notice that someone (I think it was Jaime) got cut on the arm?

      Merely a flesh wound.

      From Oberyn’s daughter’s spear.

      And what did her father slather on the blade of his spear?

      Three doses of which put The Mountain on his back…

      I’m just saying – and maybe it’s revisionist history because the fight itself didn’t give them the raw material they needed – but one side effect of that herky jerky sequence was that no one seems to have noticed Jaime (or possibly Bronn) being poisoned…

      Let’s see if that goes anywhere.

        Quote  Reply

    88. I overall enjoyed the episode. Sure the Dorne scene was executed somewhat in a cheesy fashion, but it could have been worse. It was okay.

      Everything else in the episode was better and it came out great. The ending was indeed shocking and I’m kind of glad nothing more than that was exposed, Ramsey really is not forgiving.

        Quote  Reply

    89. JamesL,

      Oh! That’s a good point, I had seen some comments mad about the cutaway to Theon and wishing for, uh. Way more gross stuff. You’re right that as an editing choice, focusing on Theon was absolutely the better option. My opinion that the scene was for Theon’s benefit is because of foreshadowing throughout the episode, and the staging of how all the events go down. He wasn’t just in the room, Ramsey positioned Sansa so everything was visible to Theon etc.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Big Mac:
      All in all, I really liked this episode.

      My only problem was, like many have said, the Dorne fight scene was rather poorly edited.
      I did chuckle at Bronn’s comment to Tyene, but yeah, her reaction was pretty cheesy…
      That said, unlike some, I don’t really have a problem with the Sand Snakes in general, and I am interested in where the storyline goes.

      I’m willing to wait and see how the rape scene affects Sansa’s character arc before I pass judgement.

      The scene in “Next in GOT” where Sansa appears distressed while being kissed by Ramsay. Hopefully that is not what the direction Sansa’s arc will be

        Quote  Reply

    91. Why have Sansa at the end of season 4. acting like she is this bad ass, only to have THAT happen yesterday?

      Yea she´s turning into a quite a “player”/manipulator … :-/
      It´s the same good ole “save me” Sansa.

      Our “player” better light that candle now.

      Its been only 3 episodes and she is in a need of a rescue.

        Quote  Reply

    92. I’m not sure how else Sansa’s story can be told. What do people think will happen to her in the books? That she’ll marry a nice guy? That he would be loving towards her on the night of consummation? That the first time she has sex will be with someone she wants to be with, or not be traumatic somehow? That doesn’t seem to be the narrative of the show or the books. In this world, if women want power, they have to do it through marriage. And in that world, you open yourself up to sexual violence when you do that. To have Sansa rise to some political power without any of the risks associated with that rise manifesting themselves would be cheating, in my view. It’s like Arya becoming an assasin without any of the personal cost we’ve seen. Sansa’s road needs to have all the bumps that would naturally occur, or the end goal will feel unearned.

      I think some are accusing this storyline of pushing her back to her Season 2 status, and that is a bad reading of how they built up to this season, and also unfairly projects what people think is going to happen in the future. She chose to be in this situation with the Boltons, very different than when she was in King’s Landing. And while there, she has asserted herself much more than she ever did in the first couple seasons. And I HIGHLY doubt that they will suddenly change course and make her just a victim post-wedding night. She still has opportunities to effect change around her in the future. Her goal of gaining power was always going to be a conflict with the Boltons, and I can think of few dramatic conflicts where the villains never get the edge over the hero. There’s a reason why it’s “moves and countermoves,” not just “moves.” Sansa is down but not out for the count, we still have four episodes left.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Boy I’m so glad they got rid of Jaime’s adventures in the Riverlands and instead we get a lost episode of Xena. Who needs the standoff with the Blackfish, Edmure or including Septon Meribald’s speech when there’s For Oberyn! And the tragic teenage romance.

      I especially loved all the Northern Lords in attendance at the wedding, to solidify the Bolton’s claim to Winterfell and the North. Sansa is going to have so many allies.

      And finally I really needed another reminder that Loras is gay. I totally forgot after last week. The pillow biter comments help in that department.

        Quote  Reply

    94. So I guess that “controversial” Sansa chapter in TWOW is likely something similar to this occurring with Harry the Heir instead. Ugh.

      You know what, enough of this Sansa been a meek brutalized character. It’s been 5 seasons and she still hasn’t done anything and frankly, the same goes for the books. I want to see her transformation already and evolve as a badass character and get some redemption. We’ve seen other Stark kids evolve and they’re adapting and growing and while we saw some of that happen last season with Sansa, this season however, its been more of the same. I am finally invested in Sansa storyline in the books and the show and I want her to stop being this abused character and do something awesome.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Sean C.,

      It’s because you’ve interpreted her arc more shallowly than necessary. Her arc is not about “manipulating people.” It’s about long-term survival (without losing sight of vengeance/ justice). People forget Tyrion’s line to Sansa in season 2, where he recognized her survival skills: “Lady Stark, you may survive us yet.”

      We’ve got 4 episodes left this season, and two more seasons after it. Sansa will have her revenge.

        Quote  Reply

    96. I hated and loved this episode. Sansa is, after Catelyn, my favorite character. That scene did hurt me… I was even more shocked than in the Red Wedding and the Ned Stark’s beheading (although I was aware of it, you know… the spoilers came). But it was well done… Gods… Was agüesome!

        Quote  Reply

    97. Where was the uproar when Tansy (after probably years of sexual and physical abuse) got hunted and torn apart by dogs?
      They even had to remind you of her name this episode.
      They replaced Jeyne Poole with Sansa to make you CARE.
      well done. you bastards!

        Quote  Reply

    98. LaughingStorm:
      Boy I’m so glad they got rid of Jaime’s adventures in the Riverlands and instead we get a lost episode of Xena. Who needs the standoff with the Blackfish, Edmure or including Septon Meribald’s speech when there’s For Oberyn! And the tragic teenage romance.

      Yeah, nothing as fun as watching Jaime moping around with a mute companion.
      Who needs that aimless filler indeed.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Hodor Targaryen:
      I’m not sure how else Sansa’s story can be told. What do people think will happen to her in the books? That she’ll marry a nice guy? That he would be loving towards her on the night of consummation? That the first time she has sex will be with someone she wants to be with, or not be traumatic somehow?

      What power is she gaining here, though? Petyr has abandoned her, used her as a pawn. She’s marrying the people who invaded her home, when Winterfell is hers by rights.

      In the books, her marriage promises her a) vengeange and b) her home. Here she is nothing but a victim waiting for rescue. That’s not a story I’m interested in. I like book-Sansa’s story.

        Quote  Reply

    100. middleJon: What power is she gaining here, though? Petyr has abandoned her, used her as a pawn. She’s marrying the people who invaded her home, when Winterfell is hers by rights.

      In the books, her marriage promises her a) vengeange and b) her home. Here she is nothing but a victim waiting for rescue. That’s not a story I’m interested in. I like book-Sansa’s story.

      From the Next on GOT.. there seemed to be a scene where Sansa is plotting with Theon… so might actually working on a plan

        Quote  Reply

    101. Morgoth,

      Of course his moping in Dorne with wacky one liners from Bronn is moving the story forward so much. Just wait until Arianne tries to crown..or when Quentyn goes to Meer..
      But I will give them this, somehow they made the Sand Snakes worse than Darkstar that’s an achievement.

        Quote  Reply

    102. I actually think the way the show handled the wedding night was great;
      a) i would’ve hated if the consent was dubious in anyway which would’ve taken away of Ramsay’s evilness, and sansa’s danger, also I would’ve hated for a “was it really rape?” discussion to take place like it did last season
      b) i love that there was no nudity, and that we saw it through theon’s eyes..alfie is so far the best actor this season in my opinion
      c)as for the books storyline, what she’s doing in the vale is not engaging enough for tv, i remember reading somewhere that theres a controversial sansa chapter in the next book (so there’s no guarantee she won’t be raped), and let’s not forget that what happens to jeyne in the books is much much worse..
      Isn’t it a bit hypocritical to be so angry about sansa’s wedding night and not Jeyne’s just because Jeyne is a minor character?
      Personally, I am very happy with the route the show is taking with the winterfell story, although I am very sad for sansa (who’s always been my fav), having her in winterfell makes for extremely interesting scenes and conversations between those who have proven to be some of the most underrated actors on the show (alfie, sophie, iwan, Michael)

        Quote  Reply

    103. i know it will be all about that Sansa scene

      i loved house of faces …

      i loved Tyrion and jorah scenes..

      LF is actually master of chaos …so he now will lead vale army to north to finish whoever survives the battle of winter ..easy pickings i guess and also brilliant in a way that he made cersei think it as her plan

      and finally this has to be said

      is it just me or everyone liked the scene

      Cersei writing letters imitating Tywin and QOT response was great

        Quote  Reply

    104. And I’m starting to think that it would have been better to be be more faithful to the books… A proper introduction to Arianne Martell as that they gave to Oberyn could have work. I was optimist when I realized that Jaime & Bronn would take a deviation to the south… but now, that’s actually BAD TV… At this point, I think that the Greyjoy’s plot would have been more accuarte for the TV series.

      However, other than Dorne… this season is the best of all.

        Quote  Reply

    105. StandOzone:
      At this point, I think that the Greyjoy’s plot would have been more accuarte for the TV series.

      It wouldn’t. Dorne was needed because of Myrcella and Oberyn’s death.

        Quote  Reply

    106. I find it interesting, and a very stark contrast between Sansa and the women she has tried to emulate. Margaery, for example, would have had Ramsay wrapped around her little finger. She did so with Joffrey without even blinking. And yet it’s Margaery who is in a dungeon next week. Which is better? And did learning to manipulate men help anyone who’s been good at it so far – Cersei, Margaery, Ros, etc? Perhaps this will show Sansa that she needs a different set of skills to play the game.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Sansa’s scene was hard to watch. But I don’t think that this means she won’t be powerful. It will be used as her turning point against the Boltons and LF.

      I’m interested to see what will GRRM do with her in TWOW.

      We all now what will happen to Cersei this season, and we know that she wont lose her power

      And LF’s plan now seems clear and very smart. He don’t want her to be happy and safe. He wants to use her to turn lannisters againt the Boltons and as excuse to invade the North.

        Quote  Reply

    108. in a way i think that the show as now spoiled the WOW because whatever happens in battle of winter …that LF with help of vale will now sweep the remaining forces either its boltons or stannis’s and take north

        Quote  Reply

    109. In other news, George gave Watchers on the Wall a shout-out on his blog, even before ‘the other site’.

      I’m really tired of the mainstream depiction of GRRM as a creepy pervert, mostly by people who haven’t even read his books (or have only read ASoIaF). He’s obviously quite an intelligent man, so at least adjust your rants to acknowledge that (this is not mainly a reaction to the comments on this site).

        Quote  Reply

    110. Chrysee: I’m just gonna roll my eyes and point out that marital rape is a thing (though not in the context of Westeros) and it’s not not-rape just because you want to still have your teeth by the end of it.

      Actually even in Westeros marital rape is not accepted or tolerated, at least in some cases. In the books

      the Northmen were not particularly happy by Jeyne’s mistreament by Ramsaey. Lady Dustin told so to Theon. And then there is a flashback scene when Jaime and Darry guard Aerys while he rapes Rhaella. Jaime points out that they have sworn a vow as knights, to protect Rhaella but Darry reminds him that their other vow to Aerys, means that they cannot protect her from him. It is implied that in a different scenario, where Jaime and Darry were just two knights and Aerys not their king, they would have prevented him from further abusing his wife.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

      David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

      And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.

      And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose… but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

      In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.

      http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

        Quote  Reply

    112. middleJon: What power is she gaining here, though? Petyr has abandoned her, used her as a pawn. She’s marrying the people who invaded her home, when Winterfell is hers by rights.

      In the books, her marriage promises her a) vengeange and b) her home. Here she is nothing but a victim waiting for rescue. That’s not a story I’m interested in. I like book-Sansa’s story.

      See, this is what bugs me: we assume that all she can do now is wait to be captured, when we haven’t seen future episodes. If this was episode 9 maybe I’d get the criticism but her storyline has more to go, and she has opportunities to fight back. In fact, the preview for next week implies that she’s planning something.

      As to how useful it is to marry Ramsay, just think about what Stannis told Jon: don’t keep your enemies close. If Sansa is going to screw over the Boltons, she isn’t going to do that from the Vale very easily.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Yung Wolf,

      Um…I disagree…wanna go outside?lol…seriously great episode..everybody should lighten up a bit..season isn’t over and we don’t know the “narrative drive” the writers have goin. I might change my tune after the finale but I get the feeling all the peeps who,are super angry now will be singing praise after we get the rest of the story for this season

        Quote  Reply

    114. Preview spoilers:

      It looked to me that that public courtyard kiss from Ramsay was a farewell one. Perhaps he’s being sent off to ambush Stannis’ forces? That would give Sansa some reprieve and time to sort out her revenge/escape options? I know that it’s small comfort, but I did get the impression that she’ll be finding a way to convince Theon to join with her in terms of resistance. We shall see.

        Quote  Reply

    115. mau,

      I also think that in that other episode description where:

      Sansa confronts an old friend will be her giving Littlefinger push-back for essentially putting her in harms way for his own personal endgame. I do think that she bought into his fairytale claims of vengeance for her family and until the wedding night, had not really understood how awful her situation could be. Her disillusionment and possible plotting against her former mentor will, hopefully, be part of her new trajectory as a character who’s learning to fend for herself and trust no one.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Old Myrcella could easily do the scenes of this episode.

      Didn’t like the last scene.
      On Twitter Cogman went in hiding with a bad excuse. Come back and face the music mr. Cogman!

        Quote  Reply

    117. Watching it again, I’m gonna say:

      -Littlefinger is playing it pretty well, I really think that he thinks he’s got it in the bag. The side-eye at Lancel was hilarious.
      -The Godswood at Winterfell was beautifully done. Truly gorgeous set.
      -Arya getting smacked for saying she hated the Hound. 3 times yet. Oh how I miss that man. 🙂
      -I love the House of B&W scenes, I think that they are methodical and thoughtfully done. Not everything has to be all action all the time. It’s a quiet kind of unfolding which is revealing without punching you in the face(s). One thing I wonder – aren’t those upcycled faces ever recognized?
      -I wish Obara would quit with the father speeches. Yes, we know.
      -Best part of Dorne – Bronn knocking Trystane the fuck out. I’m not sure if that was supposed to be hilarious, but there you have it.
      -I no longer care if Tommen dies.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Pigeon:
      Watching it again, I’m gonna say:

      -I wish Obara would quit with the father speeches. Yes, we know.

      I AM OBARA SAND, DAUGHTER OF OBERYN MARTELL, AND YOU WILL LIKE ME.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Just watched it. Not sure what all the fuss is about?

      What did everyone expect to happen on Sansa and Ramsay’s wedding night? It wasn’t lingered on or shot in a cruel/torture porn manner.

      The impression I have had from the way the story has been presented in the show (putting aside any knowledge of someone called ‘Jeyne Poole’) is that she was quite prepared to do something she didn’t want to do in pursuit of her goal, didn’t expect it to turn weird with Ramsay deciding to involve Theon/Reek, and also didn’t bank on him being as rough/sadistic as he is.

      Nowhere near as clumsily done as the Jaimie/Cersei scene from last season. I am more than willing to see where they are going with it.

      Also – given there are only four episodes left, I would expect this is going to be as bad as it gets for Sansa – there isn’t going to be any Jayne Poole style torture/flaying/dog sex.

        Quote  Reply

    120. I thorught this episode was quiet good and I was feeling really emotional after that last scene. Loved the stuff straight from the books and the improvisation wasn’t bad either.

      After reading a little through the comments here, are the Yung Wolf and Tyrion Pimpslap (both long-time commenters, I know) trolls?
      Just wondering…

      I don’t get how so many people religiously watch this show and then go to every outlet they can to bash everything they didn’t feel right.
      I wasn’t happy with many things in the adaption after Season 1 (when I had read the books, that is) but after reading some of the comments coming in this season and the last I’m firmly behind this show.

      As long as they bring in the Iron Islands at some point.

      I still think that Lord Farwynd of the Sunset Islands has the actual solution to this whole conflict and we will see just yet!

        Quote  Reply

    121. Pigeon,

      Still haven’t seen it, but have read recaps, reactions etc. Found your points amusing and have a feeling I will enjoy Trystane being knocked too.

      In terms of Tommen’s passivity or even telling of the KG to stand down, do you think there’s a possibility that Cersei had a hand in convincing him how to act in that situation? I mean I get the idea that he might be purposefully being portrayed as totally out of his element and slow to react to Margaery’s arrest, but what if he was given some sort of reassurance by his manipulative mother? I’d probably enjoy a scene where he confronted Cersei saying that he’d followed her counsel and now felt betrayed, but it’s probably just wishful thinking. Seems sad that he wasn’t more upset by his wife being taken into custody. I’ve seen people wishing Joffrey was back. Um, no, please god no. Tommen is a sweet kid, but he’s never been groomed to be a strong, assertive ruler. Please don’t hold that against the kid.

        Quote  Reply

    122. I loved this episode, especially the Winterfell-part.
      I really don’t understand people whining about the ‘rape’-scene. Do you watch Game of Thrones or a Little House on the Prairie? How many throats did we get to see slit, people beheaded, burned alive?
      This scene wasn’t that bad, was it?

      And I also think Sansa is still ‘playing the game’ ….as good as she can. What do u expect, she’s walking down the stairs with a black dress and suddenly she turns in Superwoman?

        Quote  Reply

    123. House Farwynd:
      are the Yung Wolf and Tyrion Pimpslap (both long-time commenters, I know) trolls?
      Just wondering…

      No, I just felt like combating stupidity with sarcasm. After that episode ending, you’re better off finding more intelligent, rational discussion in the comments section of a YouTube video.

      I like to think that I’m not a troll, but I do like to have a bit of fun from time to time. I can’t speak for TyPimp.

      I’m curious, though — out of all the ridiculous comments being thrown around tonight, why single out Pimpslap and I? At least our posts are legible and have some sense of contribution.

        Quote  Reply

    124. René,

      I posted this in the other thread but I’ll post it here too. I honestly think these tweets http://imgur.com/aiDKTlD made by him last week were his way of creatively trying to cover his ass for the coming shitstorm he knew would happen after this episode aired. While praising D&D he is also reminding people that just because an episode has his name on it doesn’t mean everything in it is his idea or creative decision because after the episode airs he can’t just be like “blame David and Dan, it was their idea not mine”.

        Quote  Reply

    125. Tyroshi Barber,

      I agree, it seems a little too much to expect Sansa to suddenly be a super-seductress who can titillate and manipulate Ramsay sexually when she’s an inexperienced virgin. She’s learned a little about enticing a man, but subtle, coy moments weren’t going to cut it with Ramsay. Yes, she’s gotten better at hiding her feelings and lying to people, but there’s nothing to indicate she’s suddenly become a master at pin-pointing personal weaknesses and manipulating/exploiting them like Littlefinger does. It’s an ongoing process. I still have faith that she will eventually blossom as a true hardcore player of the Game of Thrones and take down LF personally for all he’s wrought.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Succubint,

      Oh, absolutely! He clearly looks to her for approval. It’s true that he is and always was a very innocent kid, and being in a position of power is not going to change that naiveté immediately. At the same time, he is seeming pretty slow on the uptake to realize how easily he is used.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Never thought I’d see the day where D & D would make me want to quit watching this show. I am still in shock at what I just witnessed, that Sansa scene was gratuitous.

      Oh and they’ve completed botched Dorne. Every scene so far has felt rushed and has been poorly acted.

        Quote  Reply

    128. AngelWatch:
      middlejon,

      So, the heart of the story is that characters don’t get raped? I’m confused.

      Indeed. What book series has everyone been reading? Have we been writing complaint letters to GRRM when he includes rape as plot devices? If not, why?

      It was a very uncomfortable scene – intentionally. But shot in a very restraine and tasteful way, but I doubt D&D will get any credit for that.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Again – I’m not sure how anyone could claim that was ‘gratuitous’.

      After it became apparent that this was the direction they had chosen to go in, I was dreading how it was going to play out. But it was actually relatively understated and sensitively shot in the end….

        Quote  Reply

    130. I spiked my drinks with way too much red bull tonight, but I have one last thing to say.

      Season 1 scene with Jaime standing outside Robert’s bedchamber while he whored it up. Jamie’s face is super haunted. He gives a great monologue to Jory about how Robert purposefully assigns him guard duty at those times to insult him and disrespect his sister. This is back when all that had been shown of Jaime was his snark, incest, and kid murdering. We never once saw into the bedroom, but that was a very powerful, multilayered scene.

      So, picture: Close up on Sansa above the cleavage line, clearly naked in bed, after the wedding. Turning her face aside on the pillow, closing her eyes, Ramsey looming over her. Cut away to Theon outside the room hearing everything doing his Trauma Face thing. What does this accomplish? Accurate portrayal of an unwilling Medieval consummation to a lady Ramsey has to keep some pretense of standards to. Horror at Sansa’s situation. Respect of Sansa’s recognition of her reality and what she has to deal with for her long term goals of revenge. Character development of Theon’s breaking point.

      And all of that could be achieved without exploitation.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Lars,

      Yes, I do wonder if people realise that as an audience member you’re supposed to be dismayed, disturbed and enraged by what is happening to a character we’ve grown to care about over the years. We’re supposed to be crying bloody murder and wanting Ramsay to die a gruesome death. Aren’t we? It seems a given that the show wants us to be emotionally invested. However, the danger lies in making everyone emotionally fatigued or somewhat overwhelmed by the harsher story-lines. Perhaps they over-played their hand. I still plan to wait till the season is fully played out before I judge certain writing decisions.

        Quote  Reply

    132. One of my big disappointments this season has been Jaqen. I was so looking forward to seeing him on the show again but they have turned him into a dick. He is nowhere near as cool and likable as he was in S2. I wish they didn’t go that route with the character and had him be more of a friendly teacher to Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    133. How is it possible people find the Sansa-scene more shocking than Mance Rayder being burned alive?
      Now thàt was for me a horrible scene!

      How can people like Stannis after that decision?

        Quote  Reply

    134. Uberstellar:

      And all of that could be achieved without exploitation.

      What exactly did they “exploit”? They made it as tame and tasteful as they could while still remaining somewhat loyal to the source material.

      There was no nudity and there were no graphic shots.

      Exploitation?

        Quote  Reply

    135. Yung Wolf,

      Shhh, s/he wants to give us a masterclass in non exploitation scenes where all partners involved are equally satisfied. Don’t spoil his/her phantasy. It’s a pity that s/he doesn’t mention a cut to the lemoncakes at the bedside table. They did Sansa’s wedding after all and they didn’t shows us lemoncakes. That has totally destroyed Sansa’s arc.

        Quote  Reply

    136. I thought it was a good episode, and the use of less storylines at the same time makes it feel more focused.

      However, I agree with other people that the first 10 minutes of Arya was (for me) completely unnecessary; we’ve seen her do those things (cleaning people, getting hit, being asked questions) over and over and the only thing I liked was her entering the room of faces.

      I thought the Sand Snakes fight scene was okay, except for the girl who handles the daggers. Maybe it was me, but the way she handled the daggers just looked like someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing, even clumsy. Didn’t buy her as being dangerous and able to fight Bronn or Jaime evenly at all.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Deceptively Calm Scientist: I’m just disappointed because we went from Sansa the Victim to Sansa the Player to Sansa the Victim back again.

      Sansa was never the player. But now we know why Sansa is being in WF. LF had aided ‘n abetted her in WF by convincing her the marriage with Ramsay could be a good chance to take revenge on Boltons for slaughtering her relatives. Ofc LF gives a crap about Sansa ‘n her revenge, it seems she’s just a part of his plot to spark conflict between Lannisters ‘n Boltons. So, Sansa is not the player, she’s LF’s puppet.

      Great John: The only real nit pick I had was the queen being arrested by the FM in front of the Kings guard. Why does Cersi still have personal kings guard but the actual queen does not?

      Yep, ridiculous.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Love her dress, but the Tully pins absolutely destroyed it. They ruined the whole visual. Deborah Riley is the greatest thing to happen to this show. Dorne was good for me! Like why people hating is beyond me!
      Also, Olenna needed a biting line to end with. She was on fire to 🙁

      Best of the season I think, equal to 5.

        Quote  Reply

    139. My thoughts:

      Jaime and Bronn bit was bad. The fact they just wandered in to the water gardens like that and found Myrcella immediately was flipping dreadful. How big is Dorne? The size of a shopping mall? It’s just the fact they think this part is justified because Cersei had said to Jaime on a previous episode: “I hear she spends a lot of time in the water gardens” Genuinely terrible.

      I’ve disliked all the scenes so far with the Sand Snakes. Hotah’s spin with the spear (where he puts it to Jaime’s neck) took about 4 seconds for him to execute, it was that slow and cumbersome.

      Other than Dorne I didn’t mind most of the other stuff – looks like people had a problem with the bit with Sansa. Meh, I’m not too bothered by it. Yes it’s another rape scene but I can see it giving Theon the impetus moving forward. And it made sense in terms of the characters. If Ramsay hadn’t done that it would have felt weird and contrived so what did people expect?

      Overall, weakest of the season for me but not terrible.

        Quote  Reply

    140. How do we think Cersei will get imprisoned? I just dont see it happening in the next episode.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Sue the Fury,

      This makes me feel that you’ve never seen any action movie with any good fight choreography whatsoever. No Chinese movies for you, I guess.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Lars: Indeed. What book series has everyone been reading? Have we been writing complaint letters to GRRM when he includes rape as plot devices? If not, why?

      It was a very uncomfortable scene – intentionally. But shot in a very restraine and tasteful way, but I doubt D&D will get any credit for that.

      Again, misunderstanding abounds: it’s not the rape scene that gets me. It’s not the brutality, or the way it was done. It’s the pointlessness of it. It’s poorly-thought-out nature of it. It’s no longer a story I wish to follow.

      And the comments that ask “How did you expect it to go?” just nail home the point that the writers were in a corner and the best thing they could come up with was *that*.

        Quote  Reply

    143. middleJon,

      Yes, I can see your point. They basically backed themselves into that corner by taking the storyline in that direction. But(!) given that was the choice of direction they decided upon, it made sense in the end.

        Quote  Reply

    144. middleJon: Again, misunderstanding abounds: it’s not the rape scene that gets me. It’s not the brutality, or the way it was done. It’s the pointlessness of it. It’s poorly-thought-out nature of it. It’s no longer a story I wish to follow.

      What is pointless? Because of this Sansa will turn against LF and probably kill him in S6.

      She will turn against the Boltons next episodes, and she will act to escape WF.

        Quote  Reply

    145. I’ve already expressed myself re: Sansa in another thread. I’ll like to remain positive in this one, but I too found the Sand Snake fight choreography underwhelming–they were masked at one point–how much did they utilize the stunt doubles for this scene? Not very much, it seemed to me. They can all act, but fight convincingly? Not so much. The show places a premium on acting, not physicality, and I appreciate that.

      Highlights of the episode for me were Jerome Flynn’s rendition of “The Dornishman’s Wife,” Diana Rigg’s return, and Arya in the Hall of Faces.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Jay,

      It’s funny you should say that- my exact words watching tonight, were that the water gardens need better mall cops.
      Jamie and Bronn literally show up and try to take Myrcella, right after Doran talks about how she needs to be protected.

        Quote  Reply

    147. The Free Folk,

      Yeah, it was probably the most cringe-inducing scene of the show so far for me. I’m no book purist but sometimes the changes they make turn out to be the most contrived and unbelievable moments. It’s a shame, but the Bronn and Jaime stuff feels like it belongs in an 80s spoof.

        Quote  Reply

    148. If Oberyn took the time to teach all his daughters how to fight, he could have spent an afternoon teaching his poor nephew how to not be taken out by a single sucker punch.

        Quote  Reply

    149. mau: She will turn against the Boltons next episodes, and she will act to escape WF.

      Whatever her plan is next, I really hope it doesn’t involve trying to escape from Winterfell, like the alt storyline. Otherwise what was the point in going there? and why subject herself to the Bolton’s, to only flee?

      Anyway, Sansa’s always been one of my favorites and I hope she moves upwards from here.

        Quote  Reply

    150. If Sansa represents GRRM’s A Song of Ice and Fire, and Ramsay represents D&D’s Gams of Thrones, I cannot find a better representation for myself than Reek who is forced to watch what he’s watching and wants to do something about it to stop it, but he can’t (I’m just standing there crying, talking to myself, saying “please D&D stop, enough! Why are you doing this?). D&D have raped this story. I want to say I’m done with this show, but I can’t. Erasing what I know from the books in my head (without that knowledge), this was an amazing episode. Cogman again with an absolutely amazing episode, so gripping, and so emotional. So what I’m basically saying is, if I wasn’t a book reader, this season is turning out to be as gripping as last season.

        Quote  Reply

    151. TM: Whatever her plan is next, I really hope it doesn’t involve trying to escape from Winterfell, like the alt storyline. Otherwise what was the point in going there? and why subject herself to the Bolton’s, to only flee?

      LF wants to destroy alliance between Lannister and the Boltons.

      But Sansa will return to WF, at the end of this season. Roose and Ramsey will be dead, and Stannis probably. LF will take the North.

        Quote  Reply

    152. It’s a given that the Arya scenes will cop flack here from the usual suspects, and I would say that even for me they felt a bit overlong, what Arya may lack in the number of scenes they are making up for in length. I don’t think Arya fans like myself have any room for complaint

      Of course I enjoyed them very much, not exactly as we necessarily see things play out as per the books, but nicely developed to show that some things about GRRM world are just designed to be very strange even inexplicable concepts to us. Reveal of the chamber of many faces was great. And the Waif’s tale was more or less as written in AFFC.

      Dorne arc not really working for me, nothing yet to suggest why the recast of Myrcella was needed..

      Becoming clearer that LF is playing everyone off against each other and he has a plan (not necessarily a good one, but a plan) for whatever the outcome may be.

      Now, excuse me while I’m off to look for a cock merchant…

        Quote  Reply

    153. Here’s where I’m at with it….

      The last scene had to be on camera. It had to. The scene serves what I believe to be important purposes:

      1) It gives Theon motivation to turn on Ramsay- or starts the process rolling, at least.
      Sansa was like a sister to him, they grew up together! How would I make you feel to be forced to watch the violent rape (maritally or otherwise) of your adopted sister, the only person you’ve seen in so long that you have any last connection to? I’m going with no bueno, even if you are Reek.

      2) Theon and Sansa now have a shared traumatic event against Ramsay.
      What’s that saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend? This applies here. Add in the fact that we see in the preview that Theon and Sansa have some sort of clandestine meeting and discuss the Stark’s remaining loyalties in the North. I would be gold dragons to lemon cakes that he confesses to her what really happened when he sacked Winterfell. Soon.

      3) It happened in the novels. To another girl whom we never knew or grew attached to.
      Actually, the novel version of this scene is even MORE disturbing in my opinion (if you don’t know how it went, be grateful). It would not have had the same impact had it been Jeyne Poole.

      As a married woman, and someone who has been a victim too (I now prefer the term ‘conqueror’ over victim or survivor but whatevs), I choose not to see Sansa as a victim in the wider sense anymore. In this moment, yes, she was hurt badly physically, emotionally, and mentally. But I have no doubt she will bounce back, Girl-With-The-Dragon-Tattoo style.

      I will reserve my full judgement until I see the next 4 episodes. Lots and lots can happen in 4 episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Someone else said in the other thread…as awful and unpleasant as it still would have been for her, if Sansa had pretended to be excited to bed Ramsay and act seductive, at least it would have continued her development as a “game player.” In that scenario she could still have more and more reason to wish Ramsay dead as she gets to know him better. But this just victimized her again when she was supposed to be past that in her arc. And made the scene even more unpleasant to watch.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Lyanna_Targaryen:
      Here’s where I’m at with it….

      The last scene had to be on camera. It had to. The scene serves what I believe to be important purposes:

      1) It gives Theon motivation to turn on Ramsay- or starts the process rolling, at least.
      Sansa was like a sister to him, they grew up together! How would I make you feel to be forced to watch the violent rape (maritally or otherwise) of your adopted sister, the only person you’ve seen in so long that you have any last connection to? I’m going with no bueno, even if you are Reek.

      2) Theon and Sansa now have a shared traumatic event against Ramsay.
      What’s that saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend? This applies here. Add in the fact that we see in the preview that Theon and Sansa have some sort of clandestine meeting and discuss the Stark’s remaining loyalties in the North. I would be gold dragons to lemon cakes that he confesses to her what really happened when he sacked Winterfell. Soon.

      3) It happened in the novels. To another girl whom we never knew or grew attached to.
      Actually, the novel version of this scene is even MORE disturbing in my opinion (if you don’t know how it went, be grateful). It would not have had the same impact had it been Jeyne Poole.

      As a married woman, and someone who has been a victim too (I now prefer the term ‘conqueror’ over victim or survivor but whatevs), I choose not to see Sansa as a victim in the wider sense anymore. In this moment, yes, she was hurt badly physically, emotionally, and mentally. But I have no doubt she will bounce back, Girl-With-The-Dragon-Tattoo style.

      I will reserve my full judgement until I see the next 4 episodes. Lots and lots can happen in 4 episodes.

      Well said

        Quote  Reply

    156. A Man Grown:
      Someone else said in the other thread…as awful and unpleasant as it still would have been for her, if Sansa had pretended to be excited to bed Ramsay and act seductive

      But she needs to hate him, and she needs to enjoy when she or LF order his death in S5E10.

        Quote  Reply

    157. mau: But Sansa will return to WF, at the end of this season. Roose and Ramsey will be dead, and Stannis probably. LF will take the North.

      I suppose that could work, except for Stannis’s demise, he’s growing on me.
      Ramsey however, I really hope doesn’t survive the season.

        Quote  Reply

    158. A Man Grown,

      The point is not to show fake excitement for sth so horrible. I think that her reactions are consistent from the very beginning when reluctantly and not wholeheartedly curtsied to Roose Bolton. Then in the Bolton dinner refused to toast and said that she is surrounded by strangers. And finally her slow response I will marry this man was far more than an indication that it is not her intention to show her newly acquired excitement of the game-player. It would have been implausible to do so, to say the least. Sansa’s reaction so far is logical taking into account her critical position. She is not yet a player in the sense most people want her to be. And honestly untill this episode there was no urgent (and by this I mean from her point of view as she obviously thought that she would have some time to prepare herself for “playing the game”) reason to be one.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Well obviously now that Sansa is in Winterfell this WAS GOING to happen!
      You should be angry that they made the decision to take her there not that he had sex with her/raped her! OBVIOUSLY this would happen!!!

      Like what else would you expect to happen realistically???? You are hostage of this crazy person who enjoys messed up cruelty, if you ask me they toned it down actually! Based on what we already have seen from Ramsay, he could have done way more awful things to her! And Im talking within the framework that the show has provided, that Ramsay is insane! That he would do anything!

      Like what? How did you expect her to play him? How could she avoid this???

      So you guys should have been angry 2-3 episodes ago when Sansa agreed to go to Winterfell! WTF!!!

        Quote  Reply

    160. Uberstellar:

      Speaking of, the main problem I have with this scene is not that it wasn’t expected given Ramsey, because obviously, but that I felt the entire purpose of the scene was to motivate Theon into breaking out of Reek finally. Sansa’s characterization was sacrificed for Theon’s arc. The shock factor was for the benefit of his future story development. That’s a disgusting reason to orchestrate an over the top rape scene; and the biggest possible insult to the victim.

      Yes, this exactly. The problem is not so much what specifically happened, but that Sansa’s story became all about Theon at such a critical moment.

        Quote  Reply

    161. Also, the Dorne fight scene was TERRIBLE!

      After the fireball disaster last season, I think this is a new candidate for worst fight scene!
      It was almost done like a cheap B movie! The sand snakes have been like cartoon characters! Also since when GOT has become like Bourne movies? stupid fast cuts and shaky camera!

      The whole thing was just bad, the cliche 2 love birds kissing scene, jaimie and Bronn just walking in the park and randomly and easily finding her within seconds after arrival!

      It seems they were just excited to be filming in the gardens in Spain so they didnt care about results or they just didnt have enough time for shooting so they went with whatever they got!

        Quote  Reply

    162. I slept on it, and think I now understand what I understand what bothers me about last night scene With Sansa.

      I just watched Mad Max: Fury Road, a movie that deftly handles these situations despite the absurdity of everything going on. Last night though felt awful though and honestly lazy. There are really only two ways I see to go from here. Sansa subsumes Jeyne Poole’s role and continues as the victim, which given the rest of the story makes no sense. Or she now has some agency thanks to the rape, which given the writer’s interview with EW seems to be the way it is going.

      Rape as character development is in poor taste in my opinion. It doesn’t feel like a realistic motivator. It should be a set-back, not a progression. It would be one thing if Sansa had been played up stronger beforehand and then this happened as a set-back. It would still have pissed me off, but would have at least made sense. It would have made more sense if she had more inkling that it was going to go this way, steeled herself for that moment, and walked herself into it anyways. It just felt like we got naive Sansa walking into this and now we get our turning point for stronger Sansa. Almost like it was good thing this happened.

      So I am still pissed at it.

        Quote  Reply

    163. The argument that Ramsay can now hurt Sansa because she’s in Winterfell is moronic (sorry). Little-finger isn’t stupid, nor is Roose stupid. If Sansa is hurt, the North rises against the Bolton’s, her safety is more important to the Bolton’s now that they are “married” than anyone else (Little-finger knew this when he went to play his game). Sansa “the player” would realise her power in the North, not only that, her power over Ramsay too (especially if she is pregnant). The reason stopping the northerners from hitting Winterfell right now is to eliminate the possibility of Sansa being hurt in the process. Once Sansa is out of that castle, they’ll attack it. I just hope;

      They don’t take the path of theon saving her, dying in the process, and her naming her child “theon” or “reek” as a tribute to him when the baby is being handed to her, even worse if it’s a girl

      The emotions would be strong in that scene, but it’s too predictable if they do that.

        Quote  Reply

    164. Don´t worry about a LS shitstorm. Sansa is not alone. LS is in and will kill Petyr. After having dealt with the Freys. If it´s not this season, it will be next.

      Brienne: I served lady Catelyn and I still serve lady Catelyn

        Quote  Reply

    165. It was great, but not perfect.

      My biggest issue was the dullness of the Dorne material. The Sand Snakes and particularly that fight, very underwhelming.

      Luckily it was offset by fantastic stuff in Kings Landing and Winterfell. The ongoing misadventures of Cersei, not as smart as she thinks she is, is my favorite aspect of the season so far.

      And Sansa at Winterfell continues to be compelling yet completely rough to watch. I’m hoping we don’t have to wait long for Sansa to get her revenge, and for Theon to break free of Reek for good.

      Well done.

        Quote  Reply

    166. Another complaint! Isnt Dorne supposed to be the Mediterranean looking region? All the locations they shot Jaimie and Bronn since they landed on shore (except the gardens in Spain) look just like Northern Ireland! (which I believe is where they actually shot them!) Its just too green!

      Anyway Dorne has been the worst part of the show this year and this is the least of problems with it!!!

        Quote  Reply

    167. The way I thought the Sansa scene was going to go down:
      1- It’s been established Ramsey is into rough sex.
      2- It’s been established that he likes resistance, and without it he becomes bored and loses interest.
      3- Sansa has been playing the sullenly resistant card the whole time she’s been at Winterfell.
      4- So I thought that, during the bedroom scene, she was going to offer at least a hint of resistance–even if only verbal resistance–as a way of being provocative. Yes, physically this probably would have been worse for her, but it would be a consistent way of her showing some kind of agency in the scene. It would also keep the entire purpose of a critical scene for Sansa from being all about Theon.

        Quote  Reply

    168. Oh no,the internet is mad that a rape scene happened,i’m sure D&D are regretting putting it on screen just like the massive complains last season had so much effect,right guys,right ?

        Quote  Reply

    169. Arash,

      Well Mediterranean landscapes are green too. Have you ever been to France, Italy, Spain, Greece etc during spring? Plus the fact that winter is coming even to Dorne. Cersei has mentioned that it has been cooler at KL…

        Quote  Reply

    170. from george’s own mouth;
      “An artist has an obligation to tell the truth. My novels are epic fantasy, but they are inspired by and grounded in history. Rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day. To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves. We are the monsters. (And the heroes too). Each of us has within himself the capacity for great good, and great evil… [Westeros] is no darker nor more depraved than our own world. History is written in blood. The atrocities in A Song of Ice and Fire, sexual and otherwise, pale in comparison to what can be found in any good history book.As for the criticism that some of the scenesof sexual violence are titillating, to me that says more about these critics than about my books. Maybe they found certain scenes titillating. Most of my readers, I suspect, read them as intended.I will say that my philosophy as a writer, since the very start of my career, has been one of “show, don’t tell.” Whatever might behappening in my books, I try to put the reader into the middle of it, rather than summarizing the action. That requires vividsensory detail. I don’t want distance, I want to put you there. When the scene in question is a sex scene, some readers find that intensely uncomfortable… and that’s ten times as true for scenes of sexual violence.But that is as it should be. Certain scenes are meant to be uncomfortable, disturbing, hard to read.”

        Quote  Reply

    171. Lyanna_Targaryen,

      I’m glad some people are prepared to look at things with the understanding that there is a bigger picture than just one episode here. I think you’ve summed up my own reaction perfectly.

      It was a disturbing and awful moment, but it was inevitable so if you haven’t been mentally steeling yourself for it for 2-3 episodes….well, you should have been.

      Anyway….your mention of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, I completely agree. That’s the example I’ve been thinking of. I’m sure they’ve done this to her for a greater narrative purpose.

        Quote  Reply

    172. i personally thought that the final scene was justifiably included, its not like what happened in the book is any better, sure its distressing but that’s the point, if people find it too disturbing then its totally fine for them if they do not want to watch the series, but I think it has been pretty clear from the outset that this isnt a show for the faint hearted. I mean, there has been at least half a dozen instances where children have been killed on screen, which should be just as shocking if not more so,but people have become desensitized to that that few people complain when that is shown.
      The only issue i had with it is, as people have said, it runs against sansa’s development arc. Maybe they could have slowed down her progress so that she doesnt become Sansa the player till after winterfell, cos i thought her being smarter has not made much of a difference to the plot in Season 5, and a slower development would have been better in the first place instead of that one episode at the end of season 4 where her entire personality seems to change in a few minutes, which felt kind of stupid. Alternatively, we could interpret this plotline as telling us that, despite all the emphasis on playing the game of thrones in this, in the end what rules this world is violence, which is a theme that has been touched upon in earlier seasons.

        Quote  Reply

    173. I’m glad we found out what happened to Violet (the blonde girl who was introduced at the same time as Myranda in season 3). Funny thing is, the actress became pregnant in real life too, which is why she hasn’t reappeared on the show.

        Quote  Reply

    174. I did not enjoy that episode. The show has made mistakes before, but that usually just makes me roll my eyes and snicker. It’s part of my enjoyment. Obviously the many times they got it right work are also part of that. This is the first time where I felt my time was better spent doing something else. I am grateful for the cutaway to Theon instead of actually seeing it (anyone who said they should have had a nude Sophie Turner in that scene is depraved). I was also expecting it. There have been many other times horrific acts on this show have been shown that I could handle. Somehow this was not one of those times. I will follow the advice I gave people after Ned and the red wedding. I will return next week and hope the magic will return, but for the first time I am not looking forward to the next episode. I will watch it all the same and then we shall see if they have killed the hard core fan that I was.

        Quote  Reply

    175. A lot of people are finding Sansa’s behaviour difficult to follow – ‘why isn’t she consistently like that?’ – but really it’s more realistic for her to be inconsistent. She’s learning. She’s generally more assertive and sharp this season and shows flashes of ability to manipulate like how she turned the tables on Myranda in the latest episode. But it’s to be expected that she has moments of doubt and insecurity especially as she’s been left to sink or swim by Littlefinger. The idea that she would be super confident at the bedding with Ramsay just isn’t realistic.

        Quote  Reply

    176. I’m not too phased by this Sansa controversy. Once you get past the fact that the SHOW ISN’T THE BOOKS, it’s stomach-able. Once you get past the fact that the show runners clearly didn’t know they were going to take this route last year (I mean, watch Sansa’s season four ending, and it’s obvious they had no idea at the time), it’s stomach-able.

      It was dark and compelling, it had way more of an effect on me than any other scene in the episode did (Tyrion’s terror in the face of the slavers cutting his throat came close, though). Phenomenal acting by all three involved. Also, holy moly Ramin Djawadi! I wasn’t sure he was doing his best work so far this season, but this episode reconfirmed my belief that he is magnificent and he does get better and better as the story progresses. More people should be talking about him right now.

      What I was phased by was Dorne. I’m sorry, I’m not a hate watcher, but this story line is one massive cringe-face after another. Right from the offset, it’s fundamentally doomed: I can’t accept that Jaime Lannister would almost single-handedly (ha) try to save Myrcella from ONE OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. I completely understand the character’s motivations: a desire to reclaim his honour, to please his lover, even to reconnect with family after he inadvertently doomed his father. But do these motivations give the show runners license to turn him into a suicidal moron? No. No they do not.

      And the sand snakes… I don’t care. Not one bit. After watching episode four, I was pleasantly surprised to find that I didn’t hate them – after all the criticisms I’d read online from people who’d watched the leaks, I was sure they’d be poison, and not the cool Dornish kind. Truth is, they aren’t worthy of our hatred. They aren’t worthy of anything. They’re blanks. Moving scenery with some function in the overall plot, but utterly unworthy of consideration as far as their character is concerned. And apparently, after this last episode, they aren’t even good fighters. Why was a left-handed Jaime not immediately vanquished by Obara Sand?

      Whilst I was watching the final Winterfell scenes, I had a pain in my gut. It was awful but it elicited a powerful emotional response. When I watch the Dorne scenes, I’m not immersed in any way, or emotionally affected, because I’m too busy thinking about how badly it fails. All I care about now is seeing more of Doran and Areo, and Bronn’s mischievous personality (that face he pulled after insulting Tyene was gold). Any story surrounding these treats seems broken beyond repair.

        Quote  Reply

    177. One thing stood out for me. When Cersei told LF that she would flay Ramsay just like the pathetic creature (I forget what she actually called the little man) on their sigil I wondered if that was foreshadowing. I understand that Ramsay has to be shown to be REALLY BAD in order for his eventual demise to be satisfying for fans. Up till now I was a bit disappointed that he verged on being like a big teddy bear and that some fans actually liked him. But that last scene, last night, FINALLY demonstrated just how bad he is. It was a bit reminiscent of the scene where Norma gets raped in Bates Motel. These are dark series and are not pretending to be otherwise. Anyway, to go back to the thing Cersei said…was she foreshadowing something? Would flaying alive be the best way for Ramsay to die?

        Quote  Reply

    178. I like Sansa and everything but those who were expecting her to be straight balling in the game of thrones and manipulating a bona fide mindf**ker like Ramsay have really fallen victim to their own wishful thinking. The most optimistic viewpoint of her book character’s development does not justify that. I also hope Sansa plays a crucial and positive role in the wars to come but what happened last night was inevitable from the moment she was slated to replace Jeyne Poole. It’s hard to imagine book Sansa playing it any different. She just married the Charles Manson of Westeros for pete’s sake.

        Quote  Reply

    179. JennyofOldstones:
      One thing stood out for me.When Cersei told LF that she would flay Ramsay just like the pathetic creature (I forget what she actually called the little man) on their sigil I wondered if that was foreshadowing.I understand that Ramsay has to be shown to be REALLY BAD in order for his eventual demise to be satisfying for fans.Up till now I was a bit disappointed that he verged on being like a big teddy bear and that some fans actually liked him.But that last scene, last night, FINALLY demonstrated just how bad he is.It was a bit reminiscent of the scene where Norma gets raped in Bates Motel.These are dark series and are not pretending to be otherwise. Anyway, to go back to the thing Cersei said…was she foreshadowing something?Would flaying alive be the best way for Ramsay to die?

      Seems a bit too obvious, at least where the books are concerned. But then again we had:
      Ned who believed in justice killed in a perversion of justice
      Robert who like a drink or two “killed by a pig” after quaffing too much extra strong wine
      Viserys wanted his Golden Crown and, well…

      It would be kind of funny if Ramsay died from a disease which made all his skin fall off ( see Epidermolysis bullosa or Toxic epidermal necrolysis )

        Quote  Reply

    180. A Man Grown,

      Someone else said in the other thread…as awful and unpleasant as it still would have been for her, if Sansa had pretended to be excited to bed Ramsay and act seductive,

      If they turned Sansa into a seductress seducing Ramsay they still would have been criticized for it, not as much backlash as having her raped but there would still be plenty of people complaining.

        Quote  Reply

    181. I really wish they would pretty up the sex in GoT. This is fantasy. I want romance. I want tender longing looks and caresses. It needs to be beautiful, a moment that should be cherished.
      That scene would have been better if there were at least some rose petals on the bed.

        Quote  Reply

    182. Obviously rape is not good but neither is murder which we see in this show a lot, it’s a tv show based on the Middle Ages, so the scene made sense. Also even though Sansa had an amazing evolution it would be completely ridiculous if a 15 year old virgin marrying one of the biggest psychos in westeros would just throw him in the bed and give him the night of his life, just not going to happen, same thing happened to Dany and she learned… With time. This show is no downtown abbey you should know by now.

        Quote  Reply

    183. Dorne scenes are ridiculous….I’ve literally rolled my eyes how bad it looked…the whole Dorne plot is a clear example what happens when you try to oversimplify the story…Yes, they need to streamline the story, but this is just silly…Ok for some SiFi show but for GOT standards – I’m really puzzled with the decisions.
      I’m really afraid for the future of the show….This is so far the worst season by far, and I’m hearing this from literally everybody else I know….hope they bring some good stuff in remaining episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    184. Great John,

      Yes he did. You don’t have to be fighting for it to be against her will. It just have to without consent. And taking of your clothes yourself because you know you can’t escape doesn’t equal consent.

        Quote  Reply

    185. I never thought I’d say this, but that fight scene at the end was poor. Myrcella and Tristan? Meh, the only thing the scene communicated with me was that somebody who we’ve never spent time with is in love and doesn’t want to go with Jaime. *shrugs* True, the Sand Snakes amount to nothing more than a plot device to affect Doran and Myrcella but still. This isn’t really the writer’s (Bryan Cogman’s)fault, more like Jeremy Podeswa does not know how to a fight, properly choreograph.

      Also, the Sansa Poole scene after the wedding? Underwhelmed honestly. Yeah, wasn’t tasteless like I thought they might end up doing. Reek’s transformation was done pretty well in that moment when tears filled his eyes.

        Quote  Reply

    186. The good thing about the Sansa scene is that it might make some of the purists to quit the show. That’s a good thing in my book.

      Seriously though, it was always going to happen once Sansa got to WF early on in the season. Ramsay is a monster, and they can’t let him be nice all season, until Sansa kills him at the end.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Everyone’s up in arms about the Sansa scene but from the moment they made it clear she was marrying Ramsey I was just hoping it didn’t follow the Jeyne Poole story where Theon is responsible for “preparing” her.

      Honestly, in a world of arranged marriages, wedding day first meetings, bedding ceremonies and expectations of heirs what Westeros bride goes to her new chambers on her wedding night with absolutely no misgivings?

      It’s more resignation than consent for all but the most fortunate.

      What we got was way milder than what I feared.

        Quote  Reply

    188. Also i love how pathetic butthurt purists are going on message boards claiming to be unsullied and claiming how horrible the episode was and how they are never watching the show when actual unsullied viewers that i watch on youtube that are not pretending to be something else said none of that .

        Quote  Reply

    189. Sorry if I change topic but
      JFC Theon is dressed like Robb at the Red Wedding minus the cape!!

        Quote  Reply

    190. the she bear:
      This show is no downtown abbey you should know by now.

      Just thought I’d point out that a major character in that show was also raped and it also caused controversy.

        Quote  Reply

    191. No One:
      Everyone’s up in arms about the Sansa scene but from the moment they made it clear she was marrying Ramsey I was just hoping it didn’t follow the Jeyne Poole story where Theon is responsible for “preparing” her.

      What we got was way milder than what I feared.

      People should be up in arms over the terrible fight scene with the Sand Snakes the fact that no reason has been given to care about Myrcella.

        Quote  Reply

    192. I could be completely wrong but for what it’s worth, from my second hand book knowledge

      as a couple of people have mentioned, I thought the final scene was concentrating on Alfie to show Theon bubbling to the surface again, perhaps for good? Presumably Reek wouldn’t have reacted like that but Theon would. I thought that might be what they were trying to get across by showing his reaction rather than Sansa’s? We know she’s suffering without seeing it. If they just wanted to avoid showing her they could have zoomed in on something else. The fact it was him struck me as potentially important.

      I’m glad we didn’t get to see what happened, sometimes less really is more, and I really hope this makes Sansa, rather than breaking her, and she takes down both the Boltons and Littlefinger in spectacular style. You go girl!

        Quote  Reply

    193. I was complaining last week when they had Dany demand Hizdahr to marry her instead of the more logical book version were he convinces her to marry him and promises to bring peace to Merreen. They made this change because they for some reason considered it a step back for Dany’s progression to be backed into a corner and in a somewhat arranged marriage again so she had to be the one to demand him to marry her. This unnecessary change looks even more ridiculous now after this Sansa scene. Even something that mild they have to change for Dany’s storyline because they consider it a regression on her character development as a strong independent woman yet the next episode they go and rape Sansa Stark! Do they not consider that a huge step back for Sansa’s character progression after all she has been through. Why are they so overly cautious with one characters development and not the other?

        Quote  Reply

    194. I think however you look at it, this episode elicited the type of shock, disgust and social media traction that it was missing of late. Everyone I know is talking about THAT scene, and no, not everyone thinks it is unreasonable something like this happened again. Most thought it was inevitable given the psychopath she was marrying.

      I knew it would happen as soon as we heard Sansa would be in Winterfell, so I guess I prepared for the worse. I think they executed the final scene perfectly, they weren’t overly gratuitous about it, but it still struck me in the stomach, and both Sophie and Alfie hit it out of the park for me. I am so excited about their future scenes together, D&D were not thinking aimlessly when they figured Sansa would return to WF, her interactions with Theon bear so much emotional and psychological fruit.

      As for Sansa’s character development, I loved her moment in Season 4 when she came down the stairs, it felt like a new beginning, a sort of new epiphany for the character, so I get that her actions in WF have felt muted. BUT that’s all well and good when your safe and secure as she was in the Vale at that moment. She’s literally in the devil’s den this season, and it’s all about survival and the long road. So if she backtracks a little I’m fine with it. I actually find her realistic, she put Myranda in her place, but then her reaction after was one of “woah, I’m in shit!”. It might not be exciting to watch, but by contrast to me it’s more engaging than Dany’s constant power trips.

      What that final scene will do, and I’m sure of it, is catalyse her into thinking no one has her back, and that she has to make moves to ensure her own safety. She now realises that LF is full of shit, and she’ll plot with Theon to escape or make moves against Ramsay/Roose. She’s up to something judging by that preview for the next ep.
      Don’t be dismayed guys, nothing’s worse than rape, but she endured like she always does, she’ll get her payback, it just might take a bit longer.

      Another strong episode, for me I just want the Sand Snakes to talk a bit, I want to know their personalities more, I don’t take that they’re always in unison with one another. Fight scene was okay, I agree it lacked a bit of tension and suspense.
      I know Doran’s “Fire and Blood” speech will slay me, hope that’s coming.

      Arya in the Hall of Faces was epic, Djawadi’s score was just exquisite, how amazing has he been this season? The Godswood wedding was another visual treat.

        Quote  Reply

    195. urangutan21,

      Unsullied viewers do not have one uniform opinion about the show. So some unsullied viewers bashing the show while others are enjoying it is not surprising.

        Quote  Reply

    196. Ramsay does not rape Sansa. She’s crying but he’s not exactly “forcing” her – Westeros has no concept of sexual assault within marriage, that a husband has an undeniable right to sexual access to his wife, and the wife knows this.

      I’m not *defending* this, simply that their mindset is different. Exactly like the Cersei/Robert situation. I’m reminded of the opening part of the Handmaid’s Tale, when she says that she wouldn’t call her situation “rape” because she’s not fighting back – only because she dares not resist.

      Given that Sansa knew that her wedding night to Ramsay would involve having sex with him – even though she thinks this is repugnant – why would you describe this as “rape”?

        Quote  Reply

    197. JennyofOldstones,

      Something r – e – a – l – l – y slow and incredibly painful please! There aren’t many truly good or bad characters in the show but there can’t be many people who don’t think he deserves everything that is surely coming to him. I feel better just thinking about it! ;O)

        Quote  Reply

    198. I’ve had a strong mother figure (one who grew up at the forefront of womens rights/equality in Australia), a sister, and aunt, a grandmother, female cousins and friends which I truly love…

      But I have no idea why the bleeding hearts club is so butt hurt about GoT. Not just last night, but all those other “rape” scenes on the show. A show full of the murder and torture of men, women, and children. A show with slavery and countless other horrible acts.

      If you get worked up about these “rape” scenes your moral compass is wrong. You have the wrong priorities because of whatever messed up values you’ve been taught, but it’s time to re-evaluate your life. Because if you were going to get angry at this show you should have done it a long time ago.

      Grow up.

        Quote  Reply

    199. Lulu’s Mum,

      I think that is the biggest problem actually. I never liked this two storylines forced together. I wasn’t convinced at all since Moat Cailin Petyr/Sansa conversation. Sansa already has all the reasons to hate the Boltons (for Cat and Robb). Her marrying Ramsey and having this scene was made for Alfie Allen’s character benefit. That stings like hell. Because technically Sansa could very well have stayed in the Vale and charm the pants off of HH or Robin and become the heiress of the Vale somehow in the process. She could have join Petyr as a player with all the might of the Vale when he comes to fight against whoever is left standing after the Stannis/Bolton WF affair.

      It wouldn’t have made for exciting television I suppose. But it would be done for HER character development not someone else’s. Choices, choices… I’m glad it’s not me who’s doing them!

        Quote  Reply

    200. And no, it isn’t a huge step back for Sansa’s character or any of that other fluff you’ve all been trying to sell.

      In the context of the show (and our own history) it isn’t even close to rape; it’s a custom. It’s a custom many, many, women must put up with. And it was handled about as well as could be expected.

      If you think Sansa’s character must been a victim from now on, think about how that expands into the real world. Once again, your morals are way off.

        Quote  Reply

    201. I felt flabbergasted by that ending scene. Could not speak for an hour to reflect an settle down. I guess this is how we are supposed to feel about the whole thing. I could hardly think of anything else that went on
      in the episode. I’ll have to re-watch parts of it.

      First thing I thought about was my own double standards, as I remember watching Dany back in season one in a similar situation (forced by her barbarian husband in the open) and feeling for her, but not being nearly as shaken as this time around. Of course, I’ve cared for Sansa for 5 seasons and knew, going into this, who Ramsay Bolton was, so I was kind of expecting it and hoping (praying, actually) I was wrong for most of this season.

      As traumatic and unbearably sordid as this is, she is not the same Sansa of season 2 like some people contend. Her terrible “training” in Kings Landing (where she endured and survived all sorts of humiliations, but also gathered information from both Maergery and the Cercei on “relationships”) and later learnings with Littlefinger (about manipulating others to do the dirty work of clearing the road for them) are going to come into play eventually.

      Littlefinger’s master plan has taken more than a decade, why would Sansa’s revenge take a month or two? She’s alone, she needs to know who she can count on (even grandma “the North remembers” might be one of Ramsay’s twisted jokes – like when he made Theon think that he was rescuing him). She also has to learn how to pull the levers that showed up during the family dinner, to start moving everyone against everybody else. Considering that she is new at this, it is ridiculous to assume that she would be doing everything perfect. I think she’ll try. And it will be painful to endure, for her and for us. Whether she is successful or not, we’ll have to see.

        Quote  Reply

    202. I think however you look at it, this episode elicited the type of shock, disgust and social media traction that it was missing of late. Everyone I know is talking about THAT scene

      I said that in the other thread, as bad as it sounds that scene did at least give the show some desperately need buzz that it was lacking this season. It may be negative buzz but buzz nonetheless. I don’t think it will hurt the ratings despite what some viewers are saying. Remember the ratings went up after the Jaime/Cersei controversy last season.
      I just hope next weeks episode is great to win people back because these past few episodes have been hit or miss. I am actually looking forward to another D&D episode because the first 3 episodes of the season written by them were far stronger than the recent 3.

        Quote  Reply

    203. Also, the outfits are superb this season, minus Tully pins on the wedding dress. Fuck that fish. Ruined the dress!

        Quote  Reply

    204. Overall pretty slow episode. The Arya stuff I enjoyed because its somewhat close to her book storyline and it was cool to see that on screen. Kings landing went about how I expected it, no real issues here, other than the Sansa stuff. Tyrion and Jorah storyline had its good moments, then had its silly moments. The dorne stuff is pretty silly at this point. I fear for Bronn, I assume they highlighted that cut to let us know he is going to die, cuz you know, need shock value.
      Speaking of shock value, this Sansa plotline is completely off the reservation in my opinion. It simply doesn’t make any sense for Sansa’s character development. Of course they had to add a third unnecessary rape scene. (Dany and Drogo, Cersei and Jaimie) Neither one of those were written as rapes for a reason. 0 for 6 so far this season with good episodes, at least for me. I don’t know, I think after this season is over, I won’t watch the show until GRRM finishes Winds.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Anthony,

      Drogo was a rapist in the books who raped Dany repeatedly to the point where she couldn’t walk, I wish book readers would stop forgetting this.

        Quote  Reply

    206. Tormund’s Woman: She could have join Petyr as a player with all the might of the Vale when he comes to fight against whoever is left standing after the Stannis/Bolton WF affair.

      This is more or less what I think this episode signaled. While people have long guessed at it, yesterday’s show strongly hinted (heck, let’s just say spoiled) that book LF’s next move will be to the North. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a conversation, probably by raven, between LF and Cersei that was similar to what we saw in E6. LF will promise to use the Vale’s army to clear out Stannis. Once he and his army are in the north, Sansa can be safely revealed and help him win over northern lords to his cause. Next thing you know, and LF is in control of the Vale, the North, and much of the Riverlands. Ned Stark was LF’s rival. I can imaging few things that would make LF happier than stealing his daughter AND his castle.

      Oh, and he’d probably squish whatever was left of the Freys on the way north, for obvious reasons.

        Quote  Reply

    207. It’s a pity people are only talking about Sansa. I almost want that scene to be cut, but only because it eclipses all other possible discussion. What about Littlefinger playing everyone against each other? That amazing Hall of Faces? The Dornisman’s Wife?!

        Quote  Reply

    208. Tormund’s Woman,

      Only knowing the outline of what happens in the books rather than all the details means I don’t have the same level of expectation/disappointment when the show is different. No matter what they do someone will object, I reckon they can only hope for the least amount of people disliking what they’ve done.

      Let’s hope the pointy bit of her necklace we were discussing is put to very good use. Rufus Hound (British comedian/actor) on Thronecast last week said something like watching this was turning him into a psychopath and you find yourself dreaming up terrible deaths for people. I know what he means, I want characters to have the ending they really deserve. Hasn’t happened for many so far but I can hope for the ones who are left :O)

        Quote  Reply

    209. Well… I liked the episode. The low point for me being the pretty rough fight sequence with the sand snakes, but as someone has pointed out, they were on heavy time restrictions for filming there so that may have something to do with it. Either way, it’s a minor complaint.

      Now, on to the Sansa scene. Sigh… where to begin…

      So a lot of people are saying it’s bullsh*t that she didn’t fight back or try to seduce Ramsay. As if fighting back was really going to work out for her? Then she would have been beaten and raped. Nice. And as for those of you suggesting that due to her recent character development she should’ve tried to seduce Ramsay… um, what?! Yeah, if only she had seduced her rapist everything would have been OK. Are you mad?! It seriously boggles my mind that some people have suggested this. If the way to combat being raped is to seduce your rapist first, well then, I guess count me out of the conversation. What a ridiculous thing to suggest. Also, she’s had a few lessons in scheming from Littlefinger. That doesn’t make her Littlefinger. Just because she told a few lies and stuck up for herself in the bathtub doesn’t mean she can now deal with someone like Ramsay – he’s probably the most sadistic person in the series. It’s like learning to drive a car then a day later being put in NASCAR. Not gonna happen.

      Now for those who have a problem with the rape happening in general… what did you think was going to happen? They were always going to get married. We’ve known this for quite some time. Did you think Ramsay was going to say, “oh, well if Tyrion didn’t then I won’t too”? What were you hoping that the showmakers were going to give you? A tasteful rape? Seems to be what some people are implying. To be perfectly honest, I think the fact that it was absolutely harrowing (and let’s keep in mind they didn’t even show it) is the best thing they could have done in portraying it. The fact is that rape is harrowing, horrific. It should be portrayed in that way. It’s a real thing that happens, fantasy world or otherwise, whether you like it or not. It’s deeply unpleasant and should be dealt with as such.

      And now people are saying they’re going to quit the show? Oh, please! I can’t even count the amount of rapes we’ve seen/been told of in the show so far. Or the killings/mutilations/various tortures that have occurred. Grow up. You all know what the show is.

      It seems to me that most of what I’m hearing is simply an excuse for this particular difficult-to-watch scene not being in the books, and therefore this is somehow the worst of them all – and where everyone suddenly draws a line. Not to take away from my previous points, but I guarantee if this had happened in the books there wouldn’t be half as many people screaming.

      Sorry for the long post – this one just irked me a bit. Can’t wait for next week 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    210. JamesL,

      I have not forgotten anything about that storyline. What I referred to was the first time they were together. Book scene, not rape. Show scene, rape.

        Quote  Reply

    211. On Ramsay, Sansa and Reek;

      – Firstly, they were married;
      – Secondly, Sansa begins to undress, so, not as full-on rapey as it could have been;
      – Thirdly, Ramsay IS a sadistic bastard, so what did you expect?;
      – Fourthly, Reek being in the room to watch was actually something Ramsay wanted for legal reasons, quite apart from his being a sadistic bastard.

      Please remember, Ramsay’s new lady wife could only become his wife if she was a virgin; otherwise, Ramsay was raping the noble wife of somebody else. That would be Tyrion Lannister. On Sansa’s virginity hangs the whole of the legitimacy of Ramsay and the Bolton’s claim to the North.

      Accordingly, Theon can bear witness to Sansa being a virgin (because in this alternate horse riding Universe apparently hymens only break from intercourse) AND Theon can attest to the fact that Ramsay was the one who did it.

      All of that – from a creepy, hyper-rational perspective – makes complete and total sense.

      I understand completely the perspective of many viewers who are still upset about this, a majority of which are female viewers (though hardly exclusively). This scene was foreshadowed for a long time this season and the expression of opinions otherwise prior to this seemed like wishful thinking, if not outright naivete. “If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention” might aptly describe these comments about Sansa’s supposed “agency”.

      It’s not even a case of male show runners and an insensitivity particular to the male mind. If you have any doubt about that, well, then you didn’t see Episode 15 of Outlander this weekend. Another rape, far FAR worse than this one – and the author of that horror, Diana Gabaldon, is *quite* female, I assure you.

      That said, I do think it is necessary to acknowledge that the emotional reaction to the scene from many female viewers is something that I do think that the male writers of the show don’t truly appreciate. Oh, they intellectually get it, no doubt of that; however, that’s not the same thing as **emotionally getting it**.

      I still think for story purposes it’s well understandable and quite defensible. Still, if there is great displeasure among the viewers at Cogman and D&D — as opposed to hatred for Ramsay Bolton — I completely understand that fan reaction.

      Me? I’m still furious the Kingsuard, armed and armored, stood by while the Queen’s person was threatened, in their presence, by robe wearing thugs armed only with wooden cudgels. I don’t know in what alternate world that happens in — but it isn’t in Westeros. That was indefensible bullshit. Just insert a scene where the KG are not allowed in the Sept, with Cersei assuring everyone it will be all right. Simply a brief scene that mirrors EXACTLY what happened in the books concerning that very matter. It’s not like they didn’t have the set or the time in the episode. They surely did.

        Quote  Reply

    212. Luka Nieto,

      You’re right. I’m going to watch it again to relive some of the earlier moments, but LF’s game grows and grows. Saying to Sansa she’ll be “wardeness of the North” was always a veil for him being Warden of the North, but to hear it from his mouth was a big moment.

      Arya’s arc may be quieter now, but the Hall of Faces was brilliantly realised, under all the critiques and analyses of the plot, you forget how much time and effort takes place to create scenes like these.

        Quote  Reply

    213. It’s so stressful reading all the twitter responses to this episode. People are gradually finding ways of channelling their hatred of Sansa’s story changes into a hatred of Theon’s story altogether.

      I’m not debating the issue that the rape should have been more about the victim than the spectator, but as a book reader, it’s gut-wrenching to see people hating on him more than ever right in the middle of his ADWD arc. Tragically, one guy wrote “They diluted a crucial Sansa moment by having it made all about Theon”. I can’t be mad at the guy; he’s clearly Unsullied – which makes his assessment of the episode more objective in some ways – but I’m thoroughly depressed. All this time I’ve been making the reverse claim, that Sansa’s inclusion at Winterfell is going to dilute THEON’s story, and now we’ll see the opposite statement crop up all over the internet.

      They definitely should have used Jeyne Poole. That quote by Bryan Cogman, where he said something like “if it’s a choice between bringing in a new character and using one the audience knows, you choose the character people are already invested in”, turned out to be completely misguided. Jeyne still would have been the victim instead of Theon – I’m not debating that – but people would have at least accepted that the event had to be shot from the perspective of the (arc’s) protagonist.

      I’m just as sad as anyone else that Sansa’s character is being sacrificed like this, but I have to say, if the show runners had just had the balls to give Theon his own character arc with different supporting characters, this all could have been avoided. This scene was disrespectful to Sansa, but her mere presence in this story line is hugely disrespectful to Theon.

        Quote  Reply

    214. Maceless Fan,

      Completely agree with your assessment of Sansa – seems that D&D opted to go with shock value over Sansa’s agency and growth. Not a book purist at all but just blech! Pretty tired of shock for shock’s sake.

        Quote  Reply

    215. Pretty good episode altough not as good as the last three who were phenomenal.
      Kings Landing and Tyrion were the highligts for me, i hope they keep LF around for some time. Surely they didnt bring him back to KL for only one scene.
      Dorne was ok, altough i agree that it wasn`t the best fight scene the show has ever done.
      Braavos has become my least favourite Storyline. I love Arya but her scenes were way to long and almost nothing happened. Would rather had some more Doran or Olenna. I hope her story get`s better as soon as she leaves the HOBAW.
      Also it looks like next week could be the first episode that features every single Storyline with KL, Dorne, Braavos, Tyrion ,Winterfell, Brienne, Stannis and the Wall all confirmed and probaply a catch-up with Meeren.

        Quote  Reply

    216. Steve,

      This. Literally all of This.

      To want Sansa to go all “Margaery” on Ramsay just before a horrific bedding scene? The mind boggles.

      And people want Sansa to be all Littlefinger-like, he’s a grown man twice her age, he’s had years of experience being a master player, give the girl a rest. Surely, it’s more impactful if Sansa becomes a player utilising the skills LF has passed on, without losing her sense of self. At least that’s what I hope happens.

      Either way, LF has always been about the long game, and Sansa will follow that same trajectory. He’ll try to marry her if all goes to plan, but it’ll be poetic justice when she finally finishes him, and she will.

        Quote  Reply

    217. Yung Wolf,

      But let’s talk about the ridiculously large amount of edit jumps and terrible choreography in the Sand Snails v JaBronn fight. It very nearly killed the episode and disrupted the flow considerably. D&D really need to take a step back and re-evaluate how they do fight scenes from here on out.

      Yes – there was also a moment with Arya bathing the old man that jumps to squeezing someone’s long brown hair Later in Sansa’s bathing scene, you see where that piece was mis-edited (a word?) So…what happened to the editing here?

        Quote  Reply

    218. ash:
      Yung Wolf,

      Yes – there was also a moment with Arya bathing the old man that jumps tosqueezing someone’s long brown hair Later in Sansa’s bathing scene, you see where that piece was mis-edited (a word?) So…what happened to the editing here?

      I think she’s meant to be shown bathing / preparing multiple corpses and it cuts back and forth between them. I think I saw three.

        Quote  Reply

    219. It’s quite ironic really because up until the end quite a lot of people on Twitter were moaning that the episode was slow & boring (when it wasn’t). They wanted something big & shocking to happen. It did. The same people moaned.

      I really believe that the audience get the show they deserve. Don’t moan about things being too slow & then moan again when they do something shocking (mainly to satisfy people with short attention spans).

        Quote  Reply

    220. Gotta challenge some peoples definition of rape.

      If a woman has sex with a man (or more accurately allows him to have sex with her without fighting back) because she’s terrified she will end up being torn apart by a pack of dogs otherwise…not consensual!

      Forced to marry that guy?

      Still not consensual!

      Begins to disrobe herself because she is resigned to a choice of rape over death?

      Still not consensual!

      IF IF IF IF the husband THINKS she willingly married him and has accepted everything about her role as wife and she’s just getting through it, he makes sure she is and she says she is…all the while his wife secretly wants to set a pack of dire wolves on her husband, father in law and their entire house?

      Still not consensual!

      Though if the husband thinks all this and just doesn’t know his brides true feelings he’s at least not a knowing rapist.

      If you think that last paragraph describes Ramsey, I certainly don’t agree with you.

      A lot of Westeros beddings end up in these type of rapes by arrangement that are reluctantly accepted by the bride as their lot in life but Ramsey knows Sansa is especially displeased to be married to him and does not care one bit.

      All that said, let’s not make more OR less of it than it is.

        Quote  Reply

    221. I don’t think Sansa had to make an attempt to seduce Ramsay. She just had to, you know, act like a wife who knew she would be bedded on her wedding night. She is supposed to be a player now, the least she could have done is acted like the inexperienced girl that she is and let Ramsay take the lead. I’m sure he would have enjoyed that. There’s no way season 5 Sansa could be naive enough to think Ramsay would be like Tyrion and not do anything with her. Or worse, that marriage wouldn’t involve sex?

      She had to know what she was getting into when she agreed to Littlefinger’s plot. Maybe not the sadistic specifics, but at least the “wedded and bedded” parts.

      Some subtle changes could have made the scene, and situation, a lot better.

        Quote  Reply

    222. Jeb:
      It’s quite ironic really because up until the end quite a lot of people on Twitter were moaning that the episode was slow & boring (when it wasn’t). They wanted something big & shocking to happen.It did.The same people moaned.

      I really believe that the audience get the show they deserve.Don’t moan about things being too slow & then moan again when they do something shocking (mainly to satisfy people with short attention spans).

      Seriously. It boggles my mind when I read people complaining about the show being slow/boring, but then bitching about how D&D didn’t adapt Sansa’s book chapters, which are possibly among the most boring stuff from the books.

        Quote  Reply

    223. I’m doing a survey comparing GoT character and actor opinions between different websites. I’d like to see how WotW compares to places like 4chan, reddit and Westeros.org, so if you have five minutes of spare time, please take this survey!

      https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-s0C7Jvq0axogWHXpCZL3TuhdyqGKwls-7TZ7KtPgTk/viewform

      I posted this in the open chat thread and got some responses, but I’m linking it here as well just to get a few more. The results should be ready by Tuesday, for those curious.

        Quote  Reply

    224. OLuka Nieto,

      Havent watched the ep yet, but the outcry seems to be huge. Cogman preemptively withdrew from Twitter. Since you strike me as a level-headed guy, what’s your opinion of the episode in general and of the (in)famous scene in particular?

        Quote  Reply

    225. So my two cents are as follows…

      – I really liked the Arya scene. It was a great reveal all around.
      – The Sand Snakes fight felt lackluster to me. I didn’t think it was well choreographed or shot.
      – Why did they need to recast Myrcella? Personally I preferred the original girl and I don’t understand why they changed her out.
      – Okay… now for the Sansa stuff. I personally disliked it for the same reasons others have already explained. To be it took away the character’s agency and destroyed an interesting character arc that had been developing over 5 seasons. Now, to those who are saying “Well what did you expect?” “How was she supposed to get out of it?” Well, given the fact that she knows how brutal the Bolton are, saw that Ramsey had tortured Theon, sat there and listened to Ramsey’s disturbing talk during dinner, got a warning from Myranda and had experience in dealing with previous psychopaths (Joffrey), Sansa should have been a bit more aware and equipped to handle what she knew was coming. Personally, I was hoping she would have pulled out a knife and slit his throat, but that was a pipe dream. However, what the writers could have done to have given her more control and agency is have her be like “Before we bed, I want a hunt…” and ask that they hunt down Myranda. It would have eliminated Myranda as a threat and also very likely have won her some points with Ramsey (because he’s sick like that). Or she could have just said “Well if Theon is going to watch, I want Myranda to watch too”… similar effect, a little less brutal, but it still gives her some sense of control over the situation and has her playing Ramsey’s game. Again, just my two cents.

        Quote  Reply

    226. That episode had its highpoints and its lowpoints, but what surely shouldn´t be done is dramatizing THIS last scene so much. It was quite clear that this would happen, it was clear that it wouldn´t be nice to watch and it was clear that Ramsay would want to torture both Theon and Sansa.
      I´m actually suprised they managed to do that without showing nudity and focused on poor Theon´s horrified face, making the first sparks of defiance against Ramsay possible. Seriously, this could have been executed way more sadistically and voyeuristic by the writers, so the only question is, if the scene as a whole was needed; and I would say yes, as harsh as it may sound. What would the average show-watcher expect? That Ramsay, the sickest person to roam Westeros, would not consumate the marriage in this way to “discipline” Sansa? That Sansa was ready to manipulate Ramsay after this small amount of time, not even knowing the worst stories about him let alone his vulnerable spots? No, Ramsay and Sansa peacefully consumating the marriage would have been so out of character, it would not have been remotely believable. Now that it has happened, we can relax and be assured that to all eternity Theon and Sansa have a bond, an actual reason to finally dispose of Ramsey, despite their disdainful relationship, because of these awful sixty seconds. I believe that Sansa won´t be a victim in the next few episodes, I really think that this traumatic experience serves to accelerate her rise to a better position since it gave her both a new ally and the immediate realization, that despite LFs “planning”, Ramsay can´t be handled or manipulated in any way since his mind is so sadistically twisted, no one can possibly predict his next horrible acts.

      But that´s all there is to say about this scene, I guess the disconcertment will soon fade in the larger part of the community when the next 1-2 Episodes come around.

      1.) And we shouldn´t forget, this Episode was far from bad; ALL of King´s Landing was enjoyable, especially Lady Olenna´s argument with Cersei and the hints of her being the most important political enemy in the whole season. Her fury at the end…Cersei, this is not gonna end well for you.

      2.) Jorah and Tyrion was awesome since it brought reflection in the whole Daenerys-plot. Tyrion asks the right questions and it says a lot if Jorah, once one of her most important advisors, doesn´t have answers for any of them. Besides the typical “but she has dragons, believe in her dragons”-argument, of course. This scene really hints at the possibility that Daenerys will never rule Westeros or maybe will not even try because she´s just not ready for all the consequences that come after conquering something. Meereen is the prime-example, after all.

      3.) Besides that, I did enjoy the Dorne-Scenes whenever the Sandsnakes weren`t present. Not that they´re god-awful, but they seem so out of place, they got a different vibe than every other characters in the whole series, they just don´t really fit in. But judging from what happened, they won´t be around to shake things up too soon., what is relieving, to be honest. For me, Areo Hotah and Doran always save the day in Dorne, they have chemistry, they eradiate presence and commitment and are just very enjoyable over all. Once those two guys enter the scene, Dorne actually becomes a living place, not just a playground for Sandsnakes to live out their shenanigans. Even Trystane and Myrcella, which both had very little screen-time and did a good job in that small amount, promise that Dorne will finally become more fleshed-out, with more conversations between the Martells themselves (and the Lannisters). This is the first time I´m actually excited to see more of Dorne.

      Oh, and Arya´s little ten minutes were glorious, btw, even though I generally do and did not enjoy her story-arch very much.

        Quote  Reply

    227. Jeb:
      The good thing about the Sansa scene is that it might make some of the purists to quit the show.That’s a good thing in my book.

      Ultimately, I think the fans who championed the show as it was first released will be the first ones to slate it when it gets ahead of the books: events are out of their hands, they have no foreknowledge to fall back on, and they’ll be subjected to the twists as every other viewer is. Remember the Sullied delight when Ned lost his head and Unsullied fans freaked out? Book readers had years to cope with Ned’s death and were able to see its consequences, so they were quelled and fine with it (even excited). Ditto for the Red Wedding and Oberyn. That’s no longer an element in the show and I think the fanbase is undergoing a paradigm shift as a result. Unfortunately we’ll have a landscape like the Harry Potter and LOTR diehards…

      Is the kickback against last night’s scene perhaps indicative of American attitudes (I don’t mean to generalise, but sex seems to be treated in an altogether different manner in the States as opposed to death)? I remember Hannibal showrunner Bryan Fuller saying that for one scene featuring a woman’s corpse he was told to hide her buttocks – by drenching it in gore so her skin would be hidden. Sexual violence has always seemed to me to be equally as horrifying as mutilation, heads being caved in or bludgeoned or cut off, people being gutted or split in half, kids being burned and mangled and put on display like the contractors at Fallujah, men and women burning alive, being blown apart, etc etc. All of which has happened in the show and even more so in the books.

      I wrote this elsewhere but: I hadn’t read the books in a couple of years so I picked up AFFC and ADWD last night. There are descriptions of very violent rapes being wrought on little girls, followed by various mutilations inflicted on them afterwards (cutting off noses, breasts, etc. some are also described to have been set on fire) Women are forced to copulate with dogs and Theon is an active participant in Jeyne’s rape. Lollys Stokeworth is viciously gangraped (with characters later cracking wise at her ordeal.) Some characters cannot help but imagine and describe all the varieties of “cunt” in the world: those belonging to old septas, or even Margaery’s (a 16 year old girl whose “pink cunt” Cersei delights in picturing being prodded by an investigative septa.) If people think the show is crossing a line…

        Quote  Reply

    228. Mr Fixit,

      The backlash is bigger than the Cersei Jaime scene. The controversy over the Jaime Cersei scene came almost exclusively from book readers, the average nonreader didn’t think much about that scene when it aired. However this scene is getting backlash from readers and nonreaders alike. I think the big mistake they made, besides including the scene itself, was using it as the ending scene. Leaving the audience off with a scene like that only magnified the negative reactions to it.

        Quote  Reply

    229. Jeb:
      The good thing about the Sansa scene is that it might make some of the purists to quit the show.That’s a good thing in my book.

      A true purist never quits. Some of us already realized ASOIAF will never get finished in written form. But we persevere. Some of us already realized TWOW is not coming out in 2016, we’ll get spoiled. But we persevere.

      We are going to watch every second of the show. We are going to whine and moan every second of it. We are going to flood the internetz to bring whining and moaning to everyone else.

      Yes, we are. Watching every second of it. Of the season 5. Of the season 6. And of the final season 7. Watching every second of it. As Theon did.

      Every true purist is a theon. Watching, bowed, bent and broken.

        Quote  Reply

    230. Well, one thing’s for sure…for an episode where most people seem to think it is weaker, or more “meh” than the rest, it sure is getting a lot of attention, and causing a lot of dialogue. That can only be a good thing for D&D and HBO, right?

        Quote  Reply

    231. Chad Brick,

      I’m sure that I remember Petyr mentioning to Sansa something about retaking the North with the Vale army in the books too. I may be wrong though. I don’t think it qualifies as spoiler then, does it?

      Lulu’s Mum,

      Hah! completely forgot you are an Unsullied/ Sullied! Sorry about that Lulu’s Mom.

      And you spoke a great truth: It would be rewarding to see her do something with that pointy thing. Preferably on Ramsey. On Roose too. But I have a feeling it will be Brienne who’ll do the punishment.

        Quote  Reply

    232. I was really open minded about D&D’s choice to depart from the books regarding Sansa’s storyline because her character growth in the books is too slow (she is still eating lemon cakes in Winds and reading bedtime stories to Sweetrobin). But damn I still felt disgusted with the last scene. I mean Drogo raped Dany in the show too but Sansa’s scene was a little more heartbreaking for me because I have seen her as a tiny cute cinnamon roll in Season 1 and I have grown to love her. The three actors-specially Alfie-were phenomenal though.

      It’s official-I hate the Sandsnakes. I gave them the benefit of the doubt in Episode 4 since it was their first appearance but they are just horrible in acting and even in stunts. It’s sad because isn’t one of them Oscar nominated? I had very high expectations from them. And could someone please give new Myrcella some B vitamins she seemed lethargic, the girl needs energy. Trystane had too much duck face and blush-on someone wipe it off his face. Gah!! Dorne is horrible poor Alexander Siddig he is stuck in that place.

        Quote  Reply

    233. you snow nothing,

      I think it is. Pervasive online buzz is basically word-of-mouth, people will want to know how horrific that last scene actually was. The ironic thing about this all is that if Sansa had had a truly defiant moment where she cuts off Ramsay’s head, people would talk but the reaction wouldn’t nearly be as vociferous as it is now. Its’ more fun for people when they denounce the show, refuse to ever watch again and then do the exact opposite.

      The ‘backlash’ is publicity for the show ultimately.

        Quote  Reply

    234. JamesL,

      Yes, I saw that. Lots of Unsullied that are completely puzzled and pissed why would they do that to Sansa. Many who said I have no idea who Jayne Poole is or who the fuck fArya is, don’t explain to me this is in the books LOL. Better they don’t know the whole scene then!

        Quote  Reply

    235. Andy Greenwald did not like the episode at all in his review. He even hated the Arya storyline which I thought was amazingly done. I think he will enjoy

      Arya breaking away from the death cult once the show adapts her Mercy chapter. But I wonder how he will feel if they turn her blind as punishment.

        Quote  Reply

    236. While I understand a lot of the reaction to the Sansa “rape” scene, I believe that the driver to include this is that it is needed for the development of Theon and actions yet to occur later this season. Theon is unable to disobey Ramsey to save himself, so this event is necessary to force Theon to finally fight back and help Sansa. I do not believe anything less than this would cause Theon to finally leave Reek behind and work to help Sansa, whatever the cost. So I do not see this scene as gratuitous, but as a key plot driver.

        Quote  Reply

    237. Lame, just lame.

      Sansa Stark in Winterfell handed over to the Boltons by her own will (remember all she had to do is say a word to Royce and LF is dead) makes no sense.
      And now instead of “playing the game” like they promised at the end of S4 she gets raped? They promised us someting last season and now i dont feel shock or suprised i just feel duped. Lame.

      – Dorne is horrible to watch. Like i said before the whole thing feels out of sync with the show. Trystane and Myrcella… i just dont feel it or care about it.
      Dorne even makes Jamie and Dorne boring.

      The Sandsnakes fight scene was DREADFULL to watch. It was like watching 3 little 15 year girls dancing around 2 grown men who are desperatly trying NOT to hurt them the entire time like it is a game not a fight. It felt too coreographed so there was no suspense. I fear for Hardhome fight now since in the clips we seen Jon swirls around the zobies the same way Sandsnakes “fight” or should i say dance.

      Brianne – Houd fight was good it felt like 2 people trying to kill each other not dance and swirl…

      Tyrion and Jorah i liked. Good acting by Lord Friendzone.
      Also Kings landing was good.

      PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CUT DORNE OUT OF THE SHOW AND REDISTRIBUTE SCRRENTIME TO THE WALL AND STANNIS.

        Quote  Reply

    238. My Pros and Cons :

      Pros :
      – Game of Faces – both scenes were great.
      – Arya giving the Gift of Death was beautifuly done as well.
      – Tyrion / Jorah discussing Jeor.
      – Tyrion skepticism about Dany and Jorah’s blind faith contrast.
      – Tyrion’s tongue to get them (and himself) out of trouble and that “cock merchant” line (AAA was brillant !)
      – Olenna’s first punchline of the season as she comes back.
      – Littlefinger / Lancel meeting. Nice set-up.
      – Littlefinger playing Cersei like a harp.
      – Olenna and Cersei dialogue.
      – Finn Jones getting to act finally and the inquisition scene ! (Though I wonder if Margaery will only fall for lying to the Gods or if it will go further).
      – Alfie Allen.
      – The beautiful scenery of the wedding, and the music ! Ramin Djawadi delivers !
      – The focus on Reek’s face during the wedding consomation.
      – “That explains the Golden hand !”
      – The Dornishman’s Wife !
      – Areo Hotah was impressive !
      – “She got pregnant. That was boring.” Hehehe, I see what you did there !
      – A subtle one but : Autumn in Dorne. I know people expect a full-sunny landscape there, but it’s Autumn, remember !

      Cons :
      – Jaime / Bronn vs Sand Snakes.
      – Only a glimpse of Doran.
      – No Sand Snakes getting a little bit more fleshed-out, though that may (and will) come.
      – Would have liked a little bit more exposition during the Hall of Faces scene.
      – I know the blizzard is coming next week, but not enough snow at Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    239. Jeb:
      The good thing about the Sansa scene is that it might make some of the purists to quit the show.That’s a good thing in my book.

      Seriously though,it was always going to happen once Sansa got to WF early on in the season.Ramsay is a monster,and they can’t let him be nice all season,until Sansa kills him at the end.

      Sorry, that’s impossible. Too many of them get off on raging about the show. No way they stop watching.

        Quote  Reply

    240. Olyvar -new Ros, or new Shae? In either event, not a good precedent for our latest working boy turned snitch. I await his thoroughly unpleasant demise, either before trial at the hands of the Tyrells or post trial at the hands of the faith militant “mercy belongs to the gods” or the queen mother “dead rats snitch no more.”

      “I wish it was wine. I’ll take the water . . . and the mercy.”

        Quote  Reply

    241. Valaquen:
      Interestingly GRRM seems spiffed with the purists in his latest blog post. Which is amusing, as I’ve read many assertions here, at Reddit and on YT that GRRM is secretly mad at the show for making changes, etc etc.

      I honestly do not know how anyone can read GRRM’s blog post and see animosity toward HBO or the production team, or a criticism of the series itself.

      He’s absolutely right: this IS one of the most faithful adaptations of source material ever on TV. If you’ve ever seen True Blood or The Walking Dead, you know perfectly well that after the initial opening moves the stories take a wide divergence. His defense of that is very clear: the production must find its way through a very complex series of novels and has its own crosses to bear (such as: actor contracts, production design, limits on time per season, etc.)

      There is absolutely no way HBO could adapt the novel series and keep everything. No way at all. Or do I need to put a reminder here that the most common complaint about books four and five are that they meander extensively and do almost nothing with the ‘main’ players in the novel series.

      I think people need to stop reading into GRRM’s words some animosity or savagery that isn’t there. Yeah he’s probably not happy with every development… but beyond writing his books, George has been involved with the TV medium for a very long time and he knows how this works.

        Quote  Reply

    242. stephenc,

      As much as I hated that scene and I wish Ramsay were already dead, I have to agree with you. I think it is crucial to bringing Theon back.

      This may sound crazy to a lot of people but I actually don’t mind the Dorne storyline.

      I definitely loved all Arya stuff and don’t understand the hate that storyline is getting but that’s ok, to each their own!

        Quote  Reply

    243. Tormund’s Woman,

      That’s quite all right, no need to apologise! :O) I don’t expect anyone to pay attention to my rambling, never mind to remember anything about it. Although in the stratospherically unlikely event we do get giant killer penguins at Hardhome, I called them ;O)

        Quote  Reply

    244. these sand snakes would look fake on xena. real bad. as for the sansa scene – she did agree to marry the guy. but reek being present was over the top

        Quote  Reply

    245. They should really stick to the source material. Sometimes things become so successful, they forget what got them there.
      Also, the Sandsnakes are horribly miscast. They look so awkward trying to throw a spear,etc. Myrcella should not have been recast.

        Quote  Reply

    246. Leaf:
      They should really stick to the source material. Sometimes things become so successful, they forget what got them there.

      The ‘source material’ had Ramsay raping a young girl readers don’t really care about (as opposed to a main character), while sticking Sansa in the Vale nursemaiding some kid and doing absolutely nothing.

      Sometimes the ‘source material’ really doesn’t make for good TV, and the criticism of books four and five of the ‘source material’ are that they don’t really accomplish much.

      Morgoth: You do realize that comes from the books, right?

      And actually, doesn’t Reek *participate* in the rape of Jeyne Poole, too?

        Quote  Reply

    247. Leaf: They should really stick to the source material. Sometimes things become so successful, they forget what got them there.

      Thing is there is not much left of the source material, is there? And while I agree that the books have quite a bit to do with the success of the show, “what got them there” is the hard work of all the people involved with the show.

      Cameryn,

      He does.

        Quote  Reply

    248. Alright! Was too depressed to comment last night.

      Overall, I liked the episode, but it was nowhere near as good as 505.

      Favorite Moments:
      1.

      Arya entering the room of faces.

      I couldn’t have hoped for a more perfect scene. I love all of the HoBaW stuff, even if it has been slow up until this point.
      2. Everything in KL. I’ll have more to say on it later but I enjoyed watching it play out.

      Least Favorite Moment:
      1. The fight

      with the Sand Snakes. I went back and paused and re-watched the scene to try and figure out what I wasn’t liking about it. I think there were multiple things going on. Firstly, the idea of someone using a whip sounds way cooler than it actually looks imo. Whips also necessitate the use of a larger area (You have to stand X feet away for a whip to be an effective weapon). Because the fight was so spaced out, some of the shots felt slow and clunky. Proximity helps create tension (see the fight at the end of 504).

      About Sansa:

      That the ending was one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult scene I’ve had to watch on Thrones. Heartbreaking and a punch to the stomach simultaneously. I think that’s all I have to say about it right for now.

        Quote  Reply

    249. Not a good episode. Arya’s story takes up too much time, is slow& uneventful. How many min. of screen time wasted lingering on her scrubbing floors and cleaning bodies?

      The Sand Snakes are a joke at this point. Horrible acting and a bad fit. That everyone arives for the water garden fight at the same time was laughable. The fight WAS poorly choreographed. Casual fans soldier through talky scenes & then get this big fight & its boring & laughably bad. I’m laughing AT you not WITH you GoT fight scenes.

      And D&D have cemented a reputation for falling back on rape as a cheap gimmick instead of plot and character development. It’s creepy and they own it now.

      Next episode could be a 55minute slow zoom on a piece of poop & some of you sycophants would find a way to defend it.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Not been impressed by this season. Episodes are a drag. This season is the first time in all 5 years I’ve spent time looking at how much time is left in the episode and looking at the clock. And before anyone accuses me of being a purist, books 4 and 5 sucked. I didn’t like them either. So it’s not that. But I don’t like the changes D&D have made to try to spice those books up. In some respects I’d say they even made certain things more boring than they were in the books in my opinion. Arya’s story is a good example. It is absolutely dragging in the show. Yesterday was the 60% mark of the season and she finally will get to stop sweeping the damn floor.

      It’s ironic and sad both at the same time that both versions of this story are fading at the exact same point. It faded in books 4 and 5 and it is fading now in season 5. I don’t like either version, both are filled with jumbled plots, bad edits, and strange creative decisions.

        Quote  Reply

    251. The Dorne scene was quite bad, and not significant enough for the episode to have it’s title.

      Their arrival was stupid and made no sense, why on earth would they walk right into the gardens and approach Myrcella WITH TRYSTANE STANDING THERE? And who says that just because they’re wearing bloodied Dornish outfits they’re allowed into the gardens at all?

      The fight was pretty bad too, but still a bit better than Barristan vs SotH in my opinion. Jaime’s and Bronn’s disguises made them almost indistinguishable, and when the scene kept quickly switching between the two of them, it became very confusing. Here’s what I would have done:

      Obara runs off with Myrcella, Jaime chases after them (this is to seperate Jaime from Bronn so we can get an idea of what’s going on). After a short chase through the gardens, Nym’s whip catches Jaime’s foot and he trips. Obara leaves Myrcella to Nym, and an epic fight between Jaime and Obara ensues. Instead of quickly cutting back and forth between Jaime and Bronn, the scene focuses on Jaime, who is clearly the more major character here. Obara eventually overpowers Jaime, but before she can kill him Areo Hotah and the guards arrive. We then cut back to Bronn and Tyene dealing blows to each other (unlike in the actual scene, the two of them are pretty evenly matched). More guards arrive, and the fight ends.

        Quote  Reply

    252. Okay guys I have a theory for Sansa’s story-line this season in relation to the posting of her chapter recently enough. I’m going to spoiler tag it because though it’s speculation I think it’s likely that D&D would go this route.
      Okay so,

      Sansa was told by littlefinger that she had a choice of returning to the Vale or getting her revenge for her family. In her recent chapter from the Winds of Winter, we see her being disgusted by Harry the heir’s treatment of her as a bastard.
      However, she overcomes her girlish dreams like she had of Joffrey and Loras and decides to take advantage of her situation, making Harry really want her.
      My thoughts are that her show story will be similar in that she endures Ramsay’s rape/bedding.
      I have a feeling that judging by her tears in the courtyard in the promo for ep 7 the old lady will be flayed and she’ll lose hope, either that or Theon will explain to her that Ramsay plays tricks and she’ll lose trust in the candle lighting thing, based on her line in the trailers to him “I still have friends in the North”.
      She will continue to have sex with Ramsay but she will stop being a victim and start becoming like Myranda in how she dominates Ramsay. This would match Turner’s description of her becoming a ‘badass’ this season and being ‘much more in control’ than in King’s Landing. Don’t lose hope yet folks I think we needed to believe that Sansa would be hopeless mid season to lose predictability for whatever happens in the end but I think that she would forgive Littlefinger when she returns to him after learning this lesson.

      Sorry if any of this paragraph sounds a bit weird I’m just trying to imagine what D&D are thinking when they decide to do a rape scene.

        Quote  Reply

    253. People rushing to say that this undoes Sansa’s development should wait to see how it pans out. That scene was her first time, and even the biggest player couldn’t seduce Ramsay with zero sexual experience. It was horrible, yes, but not as horrible as what happened to Jeyne Poole (thank god). Sansa’s true test as a character will be in how quickly she recovers, and what she decides to do. Does she take matters into her hands, or does she power through Ramsay’s torture as the old Sansa would in attempt to minimize the pain?

      I think we have to wait and see what happens. Sansa having character development shouldn’t make her immune to the horrors she deliberately put herself into.

      Now, let’s talk about the scheming son of a whore: a Littlefinger. His plan finally makes sense. Grab the North by sacrificing Sansa. No matter what happens now, Littlefinger has a hold on it- through his influence on Sansa (similar to Robin) if Stannis wins the battle, through his deal with Roose if the Boltons win or through the Iron Throne- if he decides to Storm Winterfell and take out the winner, along with Sansa. It’s a win-win-win scenario for him.

      I just hope he’s tricking Cersei and plans on helping Stannis with the Vale army.

        Quote  Reply

    254. Reema:
      I’m really appalled at some members of this fandom… It’s Ramsay, not Ramsey!

      Stannis, is that you. Hoping for “fewer” errors? 😉

        Quote  Reply

    255. My opinon on the rape scene. I wish they avoided this. I’m sure the writers could find an alternative while remaining faithful to the characters and having a logical plot. The main thing was not even that they preferred Theon’s character development to Sansa’s, or that they brought back Sansa-as-a-victim instead of making her a badass. Sure, she could have tried to do something and she kind of did with Myranda, but the rape would have stayed a rape. The problem was that I am tired to see such a great amount of violence on GoT. I have come to despise other scenes that previously did not bother me so much and that I thought at least served the story (Dany’s first night with Drogo, Talisa getting unnecessarily stabbed in her belly, the wildling women being raped by the Night’s Watch men etc) because of how many they are. And yes, I am not pleased with GRRM either, he wrote a lot of them after all, and many times the books were actually worse than the show, but that doesn’t mean that D&D didn’t cross the line as well. At least Martin’s Westeros was much darker and Middle Age-er than the show . I actually liked how Westeros was shown a little more modern and a little less violent in GoT than in ASOIAF, it made it relatable and enjoyable. Heck, they even clearly established most of the main characters as at least more tolerant – and surely much more talkative – about homosexuality than their books counterparts! That’s why I’m not too keen on the Faith storyline this season, but just because it seems a little bit outside of universe (or at least outside of atmosphere, if it even makes sense). However it’s well done and it works so I’m mostly fine with it. Just please tone down the violence against women – and violence in general. I don’t feel we need so much of it every other episode.

      And please don’t defend D&D on the fact that we should tolerate TV rape as much we tolerate TV butchery and wars. First of all, because we are not overly enthusiastic about them either. But most importantly, because we are lucky enough not to have so much butchery and war going on in our everyday life (at least in most of the Western world) but we’re not lucky enough not to be way too familiar with violence against women. That’s why rape is much more difficult to show in TV, and rightly so.

        Quote  Reply

    256. Simeon: Sorry, that’s impossible.Too many of them get off on raging about the show.No way they stop watching.

      Yeah, I have noticed that. Why watch something if you just want to complain about it later?

        Quote  Reply

    257. SteelWind,

      The Kingsguard guard the King, by definition. It says it outright in the books – anyone else getting Kingsguard protection is completely at the discretion of the king.

      Do you think it would have been better for them to dash away and leave Tommen unprotected in a potentially dangerous situation?

      (And of course, Tommen wasn’t really trained to be king, so decisive action isn’t his forte)

        Quote  Reply

    258. Sue the Fury:
      The fight scene was good. Maybe the editing wasn’t perfect but overall the fight was very good, and it had some amazing moves.

      Sue that was not a fight that was dancing around with blades in hands where the goal was to touch the other dancers blade not cut off his head.

      Also Arya storyline is horrible. Like i said all this floor sweeping and washing so she can kill Trant?
      I always felt Arya should have died in the Riverlands, her story has no purpose since after the RW.

      Cut Dorne and cut Arya. Save scrren time and give it to Wall, Dany and KL

      Where there no other northern lords (Manderly, Umber, Dustin …) at the Red Bedding?
      And yea have Sansa light that candle.

        Quote  Reply

    259. Jesus that fight scene was really really terrible , how could anybody using a whip ever hope to realistically fight somebody who has a sword? it is one of those ideas that sounds a lot cooler than it actually looks , the entire fight scene was just rubbish.

      As for that last bit , I’m a 39 year old guy and not easily shocked but that scene was very uncomfortable to watch.

        Quote  Reply

    260. reggio,

      Violence is a big part of this story in both the show and the books. That’s nothing new, it’s been like that since the beginning and it will always be like that. This show has crossed many lines before, that’s one of the reasons it’s so popular. It’s not just shock value, it’s the ability to depress viewers so consistently. Nobody’s ever done it before GRRM, that I know of (other than Greek tradgedies, but those are much less personal kicks in the nuts than last night’s scene, or the Red Wedding, or Theon’s torture)

      Last night’s scene was horrible, and time will prove whether it was necessary in any way for the characters. For instance, if Sansa starts seducing Ramsay or Littlefinger or anyone really and using sex, that wouldn’t have happened with her being a virgin. And obviously, this is the scene that breaks Reek (in the books as well) and makes Sansa understand exactly what she’s dealing with. It was hard to watch, it wasn’t fun, but maybe it has a purpose.

        Quote  Reply

    261. *shakes head*

      People, people, people. The most poignant line of book or show comes out of the mouth of Ramsay himself….

      If you thought this was going to have a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.

      This series is not a romance novel…it is GEORGE F’ING MARTIN. It literally boggles the brain what some people are thinking. Sansa came to Winterfell to MARRY RAMSAY!!! When people marry, there is a bedding. (by the way in the books, “beddings”? are not some fun thing for the lady, she is terrorized, traumatized and brutally made ashamed). When someone marries Ramsay, you can bet it ain’t gonna be pretty. But TRY for pities sake to have some sort of reason about all this….remember???

      She was cleaned and prepared. She was fearful of the wedding bed, she was a teenager, a virgin. He was huge and powerful, she was weak and a child. When he came, he didn’t kiss her or perform any sort of foreplay or prepare her, he brutally flipped her on her back, held her hard around the neck, tore her gown over her back in a tent so sheer you could see right through it and took her forcefully and repeatedly from behind.

      Ya know what? WE SAW IT ALL ON CAMERA, right in front of us. This was Dany of course. She didn’t scream, no – but the book talks of her being in so much pain after that she couldn’t even walk.

      Please put some perspective around this. Did you haters also hate Dany in proportion to how much you love Sansa? That THIS was okay, but what happened to Sansa was oh so much worse? Both were terrible. And we didn’t see what really happened (not that I wanted to) we heard her scream twice. We saw the utter grief in Theon’s face, as should have been and we “felt it” rather than “saw it”. More dynamic, more emotional…but the same regardless. I didn’t cry last night, but I sure cried in the Dany scene. It was BRUTAL.

      So this happened for a reason, there are 2 years and 4 episodes for Sansa to get revenge. My personal thought, she will NOT do the deed herself. But I think she is capable of plotting the demise of this horrid character who deserves to die a terrible death…oh kinda like Drogo? Hmmmm. I know that others see this parallel, but I have to wonder as others have…

      Are we watching the same show???? *scratches head*

      Other than the slow stuff on the fighting scene, I loved the whole rest of the episode and yes, I will be right there on Sunday night next watching again.

        Quote  Reply

    262. If I never see the word ‘agency’ again, it’ll be too fucking soon.

      I have to mention that Iwan Rheon was absolutely chilling at the wedding scene – he can do more with his facial expressions than most actors I know.

      Next week’s trailer looks exciting….I love how they’re slowly showing the true advent of winter with the ever increasing flakes of snow floating down during S5.

        Quote  Reply

    263. I really think that people just want to complain these days.

      We have a show that had rape in the first episode and since then…. two heroes killed. Ned had his head chopped off. Robb was killed and then had a direwolf head put on his body. They have tortured Theon. They have poisoned Joffrey. They have pushed a kid out of a roof. There is a brother and sister sex scene. Jamie had his hand cut off and put around his neck. Do I need to go on? And all of this stuff is from the books.

      This world has already been established as cruel. So a character gets raped in a show that already had all of this bad stuff. And people want to complain? You knew what type of show you were watching. If you don’t want a mature (and many times cringe worthy) type plot lines…. stop watching.

      With that said…. Even as somebody who loved the shows….. I won’t go as far to say that Dorne has been bad. The Sand Snakes have been horrible. The rest of the characters in there have been decent enough.

        Quote  Reply

    264. Only one grown-up comment:
      The Webster dictionary’s definition of rape is sexual intercourse or sexual penetration without a person’s consent.
      I do agree, that given enough time, Sansa would probably have agreed to servicing her husband. However, this series only has 24 or so more episodes so time is at a premium.
      I am Not making light of rape-it is a horror, both physically and mentally-but we are talking about Ramsay here. We all knew this was going to happen and give credit to the writers, directors and producers that the horror was conveyed without graphic depiction.
      Kudos to Alfie Allen. He has grown into the character of Reek to perfection. In the show’s reality it was Theon who started this ball rolling…..if he had stayed on the boat, reaving along the Stoney Shore, like Balon instructed him to do, none of this would have happened.
      And, I may have missed this detail, but, sharing the info with Cersei, how did Littlefinger know Sansa was at Winterfell and who she was marrying??? WTF? And could Cersei be so stupid as not to question him on this? Loose end here D & D.

        Quote  Reply

    265. jentario:
      I don’t see how the scene is any worse than the book equivalent. It’s actually much better.

      Honestly, I think the reaction is largely kneejerk. The show would’ve been eviscerated if it had Jeyne Poole being parachuted in from nowhere to be raped and molested and forced into copulation with dogs all for the sake of Theon’s arc alone.

        Quote  Reply

    266. BB:
      Deceptively Calm Scientist,

      ‘Nuff said. This was season two Sansa again, not the character we saw at the end of four and early in five. Anyone saying this is all part of some plan is full of it–this was shoving character development out the window just so the show could crap on Sansa

      Yeah this has pretty much put it back to Joffrey cutting Neds head off, it might have worked if she managed to manipulate Ramsay into letting Myranda watch too perhaps as I said in the open chat thread, similar to how she started playing Harry the Heir

      This atm seems to look like they are really trying to play up Good Stannis the hero vs Bad Boltons the villain to un ASOIFish cartoonish levels, they already had the differences ironed out with the dual father/child scenes

      I will think about it, perhaps it’s meant to be symbolic of how the Boltons occupation of Winterfell and Wardenship of the north is like the raping of the North or something, like Septgate I will utlimately wait and see, but it seems they are undermining character development for thematic reasons but that could have been achieved differently

      Sand Snakes vs Jaimie and Bronn was underwhelming, beautiful scenery but it did look a bit B movie girls etc and Bronns line was rather corny, even Areo as well although I hope to see that axe

      And Trystane, ugh, this is all turning into Crasters Keep on steroids

      On the other hand I thought the “inquiry” was actually very well done, didn’t expect Marge to get imprisoned, that’s pretty much thanks to Pryce, Dianna Rigg and Lena Headey though he carried it all very well.

      Pryce is doing a brilliant job, he is so kind and grandfatherly but he is chipping away at the Tyrells with Cerseis implicit backing to muffle Tommen so he has Marge and Loras but she is too daft to realise she is next as he has Lancel

      QoT looking a little flustered, I hope that last weeks name-drop means she calls on “the Randyll” next season and brings him in at the head of the Tyrell armies in S6

        Quote  Reply

    267. I usually try to avoid saying negative things, and it looks like this topic has been discussed ad nauseam, but that last scene was appalling. Absolutely, disgustingly, face-twistingly appalling. I honestly feel unclean having watched it. Just horrible stuff.

      I understand that there’s a certain logic in needing a consummation scene if you’re having a wedding, but I didn’t think we’d get to this point, that Sansa would actually have to go through with the marriage.

      (I also think the shock is part of why watching was so difficult, and the aftermath even worse. “That’s not supposed to happen!” just keeps echoing through my brain, though I’m fully aware that the show is different from the books, etc, etc.)

      So I understand the…logistical need for that scene.

      What I don’t get, however, is the rationale character-wise (or really, anything else-wise). Why was it necessary for Sansa to be raped? Was it really needed? Did she really need another reason to hate the Boltons? Or was it about Sansa’s relationship with Littlefinger? Considering how vicious it was, I don’t think Littlefinger can talk himself out of putting her through it.

      But that was indeed their rationale, it’s rubbish. All it would take was someone to whisper to Sansa that Littlefinger was behind any number of plots and she’d have reason to cut ties with him. The rape was wholly unnecessary for her to reach that point.

      I also found myself really mad at Ned Stark. Say what you want about wars being inevitable and the greater good, etc, but the man should have taken better care of his daughters and sons, should have gotten his girls out of the city before he even approached Cersei. I just…Ned was so naïve and this is possibly yet another outcome of his decision-making. Damn it. I’m all for Sansa helping Sansa, but she shouldn’t have been put in a situation from which she’d need extraction in the first place!

      The choice to focus on Theon’s face instead of Sansa’s in that last shot…if it was done because the showrunners were more concerned with the impact of Sansa’s rape on Theon as opposed to Sansa herself, well, dump trucks of shame on them. But I don’t think that’s what they were doing, not really. It was probably more a combination of using Theon as a proxy for the audience and avoiding turning Sansa into more of an object than she already was. Showing her actually being raped would have almost fetishised it, put the focus on her body instead of the horror.

      The fact that some are arguing that they were cheated out of seeing Sansa’s body only proves that the scene is being taken as a sex scene by some, and that’s…disturbing is FAR too meek a word.

      Regardless. Horrible stuff. I’m going to focus on other parts of the episode, particularly the parts where Sansa had agency. Her response to Myranda was perfect and I cheered aloud when she told Theon to shove it. She was so done with him! Sophie Turner was extraordinary throughout.

      Also loved Olenna vs Cersei. Oh I hope Olenna gets her grandchildren back. She actually tried to help Cersei–for her own benefit to be sure, but she actually tried to impart some sage advice to keep them both from losing everything. Cersei is definitely proving herself no Tywin, obsessed with her petty grievances and paranoid to a fault.

      As for Dorne, I’m not quite sure what the fuss is about? We’ve had a handful of scenes, surely not nearly enough to warrant such extreme reactions? If anything, the lack of material should be the source of antagonism, not the material we’ve had. From what we have seen so far, the scenery is beautiful, I greatly enjoy Doran and Ellaria, really like Trystane (loved the whole exchange between Jaime, Bronn, Myrcella and Trystane), and quite like Obara. On the rest I’m undecided. Admittedly, I’ve such fondness for Oberyn that everything remotely connected to him is automatically interesting, so perhaps I’m giving it a free pass. Still. My takeaway from the garden fight scene was only that it seemed a little slow-paced.

      It did seem odd how explosive the Sand Snakes were. Tyene’s lunge at Bronn was a bit much. She could have shot him a look of some sort of dark satisfaction instead–if her blade was poisoned, she’d already won, after all.

      Jorah should lose his cool more often. “Do you ever shut up?!” XD

      And the music was fantastic, as usual. Loved the theme in the hall of faces.

        Quote  Reply

    268. Frustrating episode. 🙁

      I’m not that frustrated about what everyone else is – the Snakes and the ending. Snakes are silly and awkward to film by definition and I bet they has zero time in the garden and the ending needed to roughly happen as it was.

      I’m frustrated with the (FOR THE RECORD THIS IS A RARE THING) the changes to the book that were not necessary.

      Why scrap the Queensmaker plot? A bare bones Queenmaker plot would have enough time to be sketched out in a sentance or two and make 500% more sense than what we got. All I had to say to unsullied was “In Dorne, girls can inherit. They want to pit Tommen against Mycella. ”
      A chorus of “cool” came out from the poor unsullied peanut gallery.

      Why scrap the creepy in the marriage consummation? They already DID the “take from behind silent suffering woman thing with Dany, which was off-book.”. Why not have Ramsey suggest the idea of what he had Theon do in the books? OR suggest bringing Myranda in? Nothing actually happening on screen, maybe because Ramsey wants to be “nice” on the first night- but a box of torture weapons or chains or anything uncomfortable for the viewer. Anything – anything less rapey and more creepy? Ramsey’s is supposed to be a bad man, badder than everyone… embrace that! Make it DIFFERENT than several other rapes we’ve had to see…

        Quote  Reply

    269. brermike:
      JCDavis,

      Agreed.I saw the Dany parallel right away and don’t remember anywhere close to the same outrage at the time.

      “Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki-fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain … Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night…”

        Quote  Reply

    270. Ghost’s Lunch: QoT looking a little flustered, I hope that last weeks name-drop means she calls on “the Randyll” next season and brings him in at the head of the Tyrell armies in S6

      That would be fun. A harsh, charismatic battle commander like Randyll Tarly would be an interesting addition to the (KL-centric?) cast for S6. I did enjoy his name drop by Stannis as well. Would he still be loyal to the Targ cause?

        Quote  Reply

    271. As a whole, the episode was so poorly done that I felt like the Theon/Sansa stuff was the most true to the story. It FELT like Game of Thrones, as do scenes at the wall and those in Mereen. But other events, like what’s happening in Dorne, are lacking in charm and creativity. I loved reading about Arya’s time in bravos in the books, but the show is considerably flat. My guess as to why is the pure repetition of her scenes episode to episode. I mean every week she shows up a good five minutes are spent with her washing a body! And I hope I’m not the only one to think that Margaery’s arrest felt rushed and poorly executed… I mean I don’t care if the show takes a different route than the books but at least charge her with something worthy of her character. That charge is an insult to the time they’ve spent developing her in the show. While on the topic of characters not getting what they deserve, Tyrion’s retort felt very “un-Tyrion” and let’s be honest: the Queen of Thorns could handle Cersei any day. It’s almost as if this episode’s writer was only vaguely familiar with the material.

      I’d give the episode a 1/5 and that is not even considering the rape scene. Everything else about the episode seemed more necessary to address in this post, seeing as how none of it felt at home in the show and it most definitely did not come from the books. Sadly, my least favorite episode to date… even beating the episode where Danny shouts, “And what of my magic?”

        Quote  Reply

    272. Luka Nieto,

      I agree.

      Though they are right about the SS fight scene. And the promotion leading up to this. Keisha Castle-Hughes: “If there’s one thing people will remember this season it’ll be Sand Snake”.

      Like, what? What? How on earth? Two scenes in six episodes, no dialogue.

        Quote  Reply

    273. Regarding the whole Dorne thing, look at it this way: the Martells, except for Doran, are full of it. They are completely clueless about how the world really works (due partly to their geographic/cultural isolation). So, they can talk plenty of trash but they can’t deliver. Oberyn’s fate was an indication, and S5 is proof of their incompetence. (Seriously, you think someone who traveled the world like Oberyn would get a clue.) Doran seems to be the only one to know the big picture, and by the end of the season he’ll set his stupid relatives straight. Social/political equality and gorgeous beaches don’t mean anything for a kingdom if the rulers have no wisdom.

      (Really, that description could fit the Greyjoys too.)

        Quote  Reply

    274. The rape scene really wasn’t as bad as I had feared.

      I worried it’d be more similar to what Jeyne went through. As far as rape goes, this wasn’t any more horrific than “normal” rapes. (of course, rape is always horrific)

      And it wasn’t all about Theon. This was part of Sansa’s plan of exacting revenge against the family who murdered her mother and brother. A sacrifice she made to get Winterfell back. Let’s not forget, she chose to go there and marry him, knowing full well what his father had done, and that she’d have to bed him. It turned out worse than she’d expected, but it couldn’t have come out of the blue that this guy would demand sex even if she didn’t want to – culturally that’s to be expected – if not the tearing of clothes and such…

        Quote  Reply

    275. jentario,

      You are right, violence is an integral part of this story but that’s not my main problem with it. Every single act of violence in TV and cinema can actually be justified when considered on its own, but they are too many and I’m just fed up. Maybe it’s just me, but I was mildly disgusted even by Brienne killing Petyr’s guards outside the tavern a couple of episodes ago. I enjoy the show and the books, I don’t enjoy how much our entertainment indulges in violence, and how easily we tolerate it. All in all I don’t blame GoT, I just can’t understand how we find this normal end entertaining. Then again, when enough time from when I watched the episode has passed, I’ll be able to reflect more crearly (and write better).

        Quote  Reply

    276. I don’t think this has come up yet but I was wondering it during the show and still am… Why was Olyvar’s testimony of Loras’ birthmark so damning? Wouldn’t a squire see things like that. A lady’s maid would know all of the freckles and moles and birthmarks of the lady she works for. A squire would certainly see things other people wouldn’t see. It didn’t make sense for Loras to move so quickly to confessional outrage instead of at least trying, “Well, yes, of course he knows my birthmark – he was my squire.”

        Quote  Reply

    277. I think it could have more easily been done off camera. The door could have closed with the camera looking into her bedchamber shutting us out and nothing would have been lost, storywise.

        Quote  Reply

    278. Liked everything except how waful the fight choreography/editing was during the Dorne scene. It looked so clunky and awkard. No urgency, which made it look like playfighting.

        Quote  Reply

    279. streetad:
      Just watched it.Not sure what all the fuss is about?

      What did everyone expect to happen on Sansa and Ramsay’s wedding night?It wasn’t lingered on or shot in a cruel/torture porn manner.

      The impression I have had from the way the story has been presented in the show (putting aside any knowledge of someone called ‘Jeyne Poole’) is that she was quite prepared to do something she didn’t want to doin pursuit of her goal, didn’t expect it to turn weird with Ramsay deciding to involve Theon/Reek, and also didn’t bank on him being as rough/sadistic as he is.

      Nowhere near as clumsily done as the Jaimie/Cersei scene from last season.I am more than willing to see where they are going with it.

      Also – given there are only four episodes left, I would expect this is going to be as bad as it gets for Sansa – there isn’t going to be any Jayne Poole style torture/flaying/dog sex.

      This…I expect that Ramsey will definitely die by Sansa’s hand and I cannot wait!

      I don’t think her scene was handled poorly at all…it was intended to shock us as viewers and reinforce the level of evilness in Ramsey’s character. I fully expected that he would be a sadistic asshole on their wedding night. I fully expected that Theon would get to watch (thankfully, NOT book portrayal for Theon). I fully expect that Sansa will use all of her hatred for the Bolton’s (old and new hatred) to thoroughly fuck them up. I’m excited to see just how she does that.

      The North remembers!!

        Quote  Reply

    280. Great John

      I think the issue is that modern day viewers (who recognize rape for what it is) have a hard time separating Sansa’s “duty” from rape, which is what it is now and always has been even though it wasn’t given a name back then due to the oppression of women.

        Quote  Reply

    281. Holly,

      They didn’t make that very clear in the scene, but Olyvar only once squired for Loras afawk (in season 3 or 4), he wasn’t his squire like Podrick is to Brienne (yes, I know, when it comes down to it Podrick isn’t a squire), and would certainly not know of any birthmarks. And even if Olyvar had squired for Loras more often a squire usually attends a knight in battles and tournaments, not when he is taking a bath.
      It was stupid of Loras to try to attack Olyvar, but his testimony was pretty damaging nonetheless.

        Quote  Reply

    282. I have not yet seen the episode, but why does anyone think that this wedding night would go any differently. Sansa was in no position to do anything but what she did (my understanding based on reading the comments). Ramsey’s motivation is pretty clear. Besides the fact that Ramsey is by nature a violent prick, he has an inferiority complex. He is a Snow. His father just put him in his place. She is a true Stark, beautiful, noble and proud. He has to bring her down, subdue her, kill her pride, break her like a horse and this was the only way he would know how to do it. Having Theon there was not meant for Theon’s character development/story ark, it was meant for Sansa, it was part of Ramsey’s attempt to hurt her mentally as well as physically. He thinks Theon being there shames her. Theon grew up with her and was practically family. As far as she’s concerned he’s also responsible for brother’s deaths. Theon is also an example of what might happen to her.

        Quote  Reply

    283. Sue the Fury: Why decide that Ramsay’s torture and rape-soaked storyline is more significant than Sansa’s book storyline?

      Ah, but I think that the answer is in the question: Sansa doesn’t have a book storyline in Crows and Dragons. She has all of three chapters in which, basically, nothing happens. All of the other protagonists have some variant of “Kill the Boy, Become the Man” save for Sansa. One, three chapters basically isn’t enough. Two, what happened in those three chapters was grossly inadequate to set up a story: for example, what GRRM did in Arya’s 3 Crows chapter set up an obvious “lesser -> greater” arc that he followed through in Dragons, but Sansa’s 3 chapters didn’t accomplish a fraction of what Arya’s did.

      So, I would rephrase it. The show has to create a storyline for Sansa that parallels the story lines of the other leads given that the book fails to provide one. The question now is, does it have to involve her taking on the Bolton’s directly? Obviously not. However, is this the simplest solution? Very possibly: now her plotline involves three lead characters (herself, Theon and Brienne). If no other lead goes to Winterfell, then it’s all Theon. If Brienne doesn’t link up with this plotline, then it is all Brienne (or they piggyback her onto another lead’s plotline). That greatly simplifies the season: instead of three sets of unrelated scenes, we have three sets of overlapping or adjacent scenes. (We are six episodes in already, after all!)

      So, this probably is one of the simplest solution to the “solo threads” and incompletely storyline problems facing the adapters. Or at least it is the simplest one of which I can think. And, of course, it adds strong parallels to Daeny’s storyline from 4 years ago. (And, of course, it makes me wonder just what Harry is going to be like for Sansa in Winter!)

        Quote  Reply

    284. The whole thing does not make any sense I mean for god sake the Boltons killed Robb Stark why would they need a stark now?

      how is this going to help Them with popularity in the north? this is absurd!

      And it is extremely absurd for Sansa to agree to this, to go there to become a hostage, to be raped ,this is what We should be enraged about! that the writers made this ridiculous decision in the first place. not that she was eventually raped , it was inevitable.

        Quote  Reply

    285. Hodor Targaryen:
      I’m not sure how else Sansa’s story can be told. What do people think will happen to her in the books? That she’ll marry a nice guy? That he would be loving towards her on the night of consummation? That the first time she has sex will be with someone she wants to be with, or not be traumatic somehow? That doesn’t seem to be the narrative of the show or the books. In this world, if women want power, they have to do it through marriage. And in that world, you open yourself up to sexual violence when you do that. To have Sansa rise to some political power without any of the risks associated with that rise manifesting themselves would be cheating, in my view. It’s like Arya becoming an assasin without any of the personal cost we’ve seen. Sansa’s road needs to have all the bumps that would naturally occur, or the end goal will feel unearned.

      I think some are accusing this storyline of pushing her back to her Season 2 status, and that is a bad reading of how they built up to this season, and also unfairly projects what people think is going to happen in the future. She chose to be in this situation with the Boltons, very different than when she was in King’s Landing. And while there, she has asserted herself much more than she ever did in the first couple seasons. And I HIGHLY doubt that they will suddenly change course and make her just a victim post-wedding night. She still has opportunities to effect change around her in the future. Her goal of gaining power was always going to be a conflict with the Boltons, and I can think of few dramatic conflicts where the villains never get the edge over the hero. There’s a reason why it’s “moves and countermoves,” not just “moves.” Sansa is down but not out for the count, we still have four episodes left.

      A+!

      Should Sansa have met Harry and flirted with him for an entire season? If D&D felt like they needed to get Sansa’s plot rolling faster then I’m fine with her marrying Ramsay. I don’t know what people were expecting in-world/in-story/medieval ages on a wedding night? I know GRRM decided to have every POV character to be consenting but that is hard to make believable in a baby-bashing story. Myranda told Sansa not to be boring, Sansa snarked her, and made sure not to be boring. Now Theon and Sansa are on the same page with Ramsay and can go kick ass. I’m fine with this adaptation.

        Quote  Reply

    286. Voice of Reason: The whole thing does not make any sense I mean for god sake the Boltons killed Robb Stark why would they need a stark now?

      Because they need an ere or at least a child who is part Stark. The Starks have ruled the North for a very long time and the people and the other houses would most likely not accept another house at this point, especially given the fact that the head of that house killed their king.

      Voice of Reason: And it is extremely absurd for Sansa to agree to this, to go there to become a hostage, to be raped ,this is what We should be enraged about! that the writers made this ridiculous decision in the first place. not that she was eventually raped , it was inevitable.

      She said yes to it, because it gives her a chance to a) get her home back, b) revange her mother and brother c) in general get into a position of power again.

        Quote  Reply

    287. To everyone saying they will quit watching after tonight I say this: Fucking sensitive crybaby! You don’t deserve this awesome product. After five years of following it week after week, you’re just gonna quit because of one scene you thought was “too much”. We saw a young woman hunted down like an animal, we saw incest, we saw child murder, so maybe you just didn’t get the memo that this is a dark show.

      I’m pretty sure the ones that got angry are mostly American. They are too damn sensitive nowadays…

        Quote  Reply

    288. SteelWind,

      The Kingsguard did not just idly stand by. The moment Margaery was grabbed, they grabbed the hilts of their swords and began to move forward. Tommen put up his hand as if to say, “wait.” When they started to take her out of the room, once again, they made a movement as if to stop the FM, and Tommen, more clearly this time, held up his hand to stop them.

      Tormund’s Woman: It would be rewarding to see her do something with that pointy thing.

      Stick ’em with the pointy end. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    289. Ghost’s Lunch,

      Yes! Randyll Tarly in S6!

      Well. I think I managed to sleep off that hangover. The SS was lame, no whispering thru the Godswood, and then what we all knew we didn’t want to see.
      I am internally reconciling this Sansa-Ramsay debacle by remembering that just because it was a lesser character in the books, it was still Ramsay raping his new wife, and in much more graphic and brutal fashion.
      For me, this season has been goin pretty well- last night’s ep kinda stole all the wind from the sails.
      Seems they do this at least once a season- here’s hoping they finish strong.
      Did anybody else think the “previously on” images of mutiny were prepping us for something else? Perhaps that well played scene with Tyrion and Jorah was there to serve as some foreshadowing.

        Quote  Reply

    290. Interesting, I think it’s the first positive commentary i’ve read about Dorne. Diversity is always a good thing.

        Quote  Reply

    291. Valaquen: “Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki-fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain … Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night…”

      Thank you for finding this paragraph in the actual book. I was paraphrasing from my memory, this is even better than what I wrote. GRRM’s actual words.

        Quote  Reply

    292. Pigeon:
      If I never see the word ‘agency’ again, it’ll be too fucking soon.

      I have to mention that Iwan Rheon was absolutely chilling at the wedding scene – he can do more with his facial expressions than most actors I know.

      Next week’s trailer looks exciting….I love how they’re slowly showing the true advent of winter with the ever increasing flakes of snow floating down during S5.

      YEAAAH!!!! That and “hanging gun”. Something can be good as a descriptor until it is overused!! Then it is boring. LOL Do I sound like Ramsay? *scrubs brain with bleach*

        Quote  Reply

    293. Yung Wolf,

      Sorry, didn’t mean to sound bullying.
      Your names are just ones I recognise from this site and I saw them repeatedly.
      Guess I didn’t get your sarcasm and don’t expect you to speak for others.

        Quote  Reply

    294. It’s very interesting that Cogman has admitted that TV-Littlefinger was clueless about Ramsay. This means TV-LF has made a critical and perhaps fatal error, and one that is likely analogous to his future Achilles’ Heel in the books.

      Obviously, TV-Sansa should be absolutely hateful of him now, and there is no real way for Petyr to know this. His TV-plan (again likely analogous to his TWOW plan) is to take the North from whomever wins the Battle in the Snow, and use Sansa to help him hold it. At this point, he would be the most powerful man in Westeros, holding the Vale, the North, and much of the Riverlands.

      Whereupon,

      our little maid is going to slay said savage giant in his newly-captured castle of snow.

      (Something else will need to replace the rape as a cause of Sansa turning on LF in the books, but given all the horrors he has committed, against her family in particular, her learning of one would likely serve. LF’s final betrayal of Ned was not secret and involved a number of people, for example).

      mau: What is pointless? Because of this Sansa will turn against LF andprobably kill him in S6.

      And TWOW.

      E6 was our first big book spoiler, I believe.

        Quote  Reply

    295. JamesL,

      No, that’s how you interpreted it.

      She was new to riding horseback and was sore from it. That has been established for a very, very long time.

        Quote  Reply

    296. Well, that’s settled then. Dorne absolutely sucks.

      What is supposed to be a hot sandydesert Arabian setting is now basically a beach, and one location that they haven’t even attempted to dress up or make more interesting.

      The sand snakes absolutely suck, what the hell is up with that shitty fight choreography? And the editing and acting is just so so bad.

      I’ve always stood my ground that they created this Jamie Dorne detour to fulfill his contract requirements and jusitify his salary but christ this Dorne shit is bad.

      The rest is good, even the creepy ending, because we all know it will be that much sweeter when Theon kills Ramsey while rescuing Sansa from the keep while Stannis lays siege. Also dying in the process and telling Sansa that bran and rickon are alive.

      But seriously, fuck Dorne.

        Quote  Reply

    297. Dutch maester,

      Well she isn’t wrong. It’s gonna take a lot to forget how fucking awful the sand snakes are; the acting, the fighting, the editing, the dialogue… Its an embarrassing stain on the show. One that unfortunately won’t wash out easily. And judging by how much promotion for Dorne there was… They’ve put too much focus on it and all the cracks are clear as day.

        Quote  Reply

    298. Abyss: Also, am I crazy or does the dead person in the first scene with Arya change in one shot or two? First the hair is white and the face looks old and then the hair goes to black and the person has a junger face only to go back to the first version at the end. If that really is a continuity error then I have to say it’s a pretty bad one.

      There is a man with white hair and a slightly receding hairline who is very obviously a man when they show his uncovered top half. And then there are two women, one with white hair and one with darker hair. I’m pretty sure that the changes in bodies are intentional, signaled by the fact that we see Arya place the shroud over the faces three different times. I would think that they are trying to show the passage of time and the repetitiveness of this ritual for Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    299. People talking about how Sansa has gone from a victim to a player and back to a victim again… this is nonsense, and far too simplistic.

      She is a young girl, learning and trying to adapt. She is feeling her way with trying to become a “player” (whatever that means), she hasn’t perfected the art after decades of practice like Littlefinger. Those who were expecting her to suddenly manipulate a hardened psychopath like Ramsey really have been watching too much Hollywood. What was she supposed to do in that situation?!

        Quote  Reply

    300. Ross,

      What was she supposed to do? Well, not *choosing* to marry into the family that murdered her own would be a start. The very fact that Sansa apparently believed LF’s BS about “avenging” her family by waltzing into WF alone tells us how much the writers had to dumb down Sansa’s character to make this plot possible

      ArgonathofBraavos,

      If her arc is about long term survival without losing sight of vengeance/justice, then she really ought to have stayed in the Vale, where the chances of both were quite higher. Instead, we have her volunteering to become a Bolton prisoner. How’s she supposed to exact, let alone survive her revenge against the Boltons by marrying Ramsay in a castle under Bolton control?

        Quote  Reply

    301. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Unbowed Unbent Unhodor,

      gewa76,

      I kind of agree. I’ll always watch, and this season has exceeded my expectations in some ways, but the thrill of the first 4 seasons isn’t there. Maybe that will change as we near the finale. I hope it does. And yes, I did feel the same way when I first read AFFC, but over the years I have grown to like the past two books, particularly when read together chronologically.

      I agree, but I must say that I expected the drop. When you compare the source material of Seasons 3 and 4 (Storm of Swords) to this season (Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons), there is just no way that these latter two books can measure up in terms of action and payoffs. We had really huge characters dying in almost every episode, and both seasons were filled with shocking twists and turns. Even though I liked reading FfC and DwD, these were such slow burns with very little payoff and only the hints of what might be possible and what might be coming, which isn’t all that interesting to watch on television.

        Quote  Reply

    302. Anyone else notice those lords in the background during the wedding scene? They look tremendously sad. Hoping they are featured a bit more.

        Quote  Reply

    303. si91: What was she supposed to do? Well, not *choosing* to marry into the family that murdered her own would be a start. The very fact that Sansa apparently believed LF’s BS about “avenging” her family by waltzing into WF alone tells us how much the writers had to dumb down Sansa’s character to make this plot possible

      I don’t disagree with that. To me that was actually the weakest part of the season so far – Sansa being so willing to agree to LF’s ridiculous behest. It made no sense at all.

      BUT – if we just go with it that she has made that decision and she is becoming more “empowered”, it is then perfectly believable that she can retract into her “normal” personality when faced with a traumatic situation.

        Quote  Reply

    304. After having finally watched the episode, I was pretty pleased over-all with it. The only clunky bits in my opinion were the Jaime/Bronn fight with the SS and the short Trystane/Myrcella tryst which preceded it. I still think we’re suffering from not enough fleshing out of the main Dorne characters. It does make them seem more like caricatures than real people with real and sometimes dangerous motivations.

      Loved seeing the room of Many faces; Arya’s scenes were chilling and intriguing. I didn’t find them boring or too long at all. Especially her giving the young girl the gift of death while lying to her.

      Jorah and Tyrion were fantastic together. Iain Glenn can emote so well with just his eyes and expression. Nice to have them bond over Jorah’s father. Tyrion’s quick thinking with the slavers was also fun. Hubby and I laughed out loud at the “cock merchant” line.

      The Kings Landing scenes were good, lots of tension growing there. I was surprised by Margaery getting done for perjury, but it makes sense. Poor Tommen seemed especially inept and it hurt to see him not really move to defend his wife at all. Also notable was the fact that even the Queen of Thorns was a little blindsided by what was happening and not sure what to make of the High Sparrow’s piety/authority. Cersei is currently winning the game, but we all know that things are soon going to turn against her in a very big way.

      The big surprise for me was Littlefinger essentially throwing Sansa under a bus with Cersei. He played that very well, now having a reason to take his Vale soldiers north and the assurance of a ‘Warden of the North’ title. He can choose to let the two other armies weaken each other and then swoop in fresh to dominate the battlefield with the crown’s blessing. If it looks like either Roose or Stannis are in a strong position, however, he could always back one of them instead if needed. It was a very clever move, but also I think his gamble with Sansa is going to lead to his own downfall. He used her to further his own ambitions and I think she’s going to realise just how expendable she was to him.

      I loved Sansa putting Myranda in her place. She really showed some inner mettle there, but also showed afterwards that she was still rattled deeply by the other girl’s words. She’s not a fully fledged game player yet, but she’s slowly learning and maturing. Also liked her retort to Theon about how she didn’t care what Ramsay did to him. After the wedding night, however, she might have more sympathy for what ‘Reek’ has been enduring.

      I think most people have said what they wanted to say about the bedding/rape scene, so I won’t go on about it, but I thought it was well done, surprisingly tasteful considering the horrific situation and very emotionally gut-wrenching. As it should be.

      Some people wanted Reek to suddenly ‘snap’ and intervene violently in that final scene, but then it would have truly made it all about Theon returning to himself and saving poor helpless Sansa. Which I think would have done Sansa even more of a disservice in terms of her own story arc.

      I think the show writers are planning to have Sansa be more active in saving herself, if that makes sense. She will be the one to start plotting and she will reach out to Theon and convince him that something must be done. I personally think that works better than a miserable Sansa just waiting around for someone to come and rescue her. Hopefully he will confess the truth about her two brothers still being alive.

        Quote  Reply

    305. Matt,

      I couldn’t tell what the hell was going on during that fight to be honest. They should really make their fight scenes more like Brienne vs Loras back in season 2, just don’t make the weapons look like they weigh 15lbs.

        Quote  Reply

    306. Well… that wasn’t fun.

      Probably my least favourite of the season. Cogman kind of failed us. I’d give it a 6 or 7/10.

      Loved the Arya stuff (although I agree that it’s been very slow).

      Sandsnakes are a big letdown so far, I can’t pretend otherwise.

      Sansa… ugh. She was so awesome in the scene with Myranda, sounding tough and showing some backbone. Did we really have to see her get bent over, and listen to her screams? Couldn’t they have implied it without showing us as much as they did? I hope they’re able to redeem this storyline somewhat, in the last 4 episodes, but I’m not sure they can. If it pans out like in the book, that’s just not satisfying enough, and not worth what we had to witness.

      Anyway, pretty disappointed this week.

      Lastly, CAN SOMEONE GIVE ALFIE ALLEN A FREAKING ACTING AWARD ALREADY?!? Or even a nomination? One of the best actors on the show.

      EDIT: How the heck do I block spoilers? Why is there no spoiler button?

        Quote  Reply

    307. Hodor Targaryen,

      “What do people think will happen to her in the books? That she’ll marry a nice guy? That he would be loving towards her on the night of consummation? That the first time she has sex will be with someone she wants to be with, or not be traumatic somehow?”

      There’s a huge difference between “not traumatic” and “raped by a sadistic psychopath.” From what we have seen of Harry the Heir, he’s nowhere near Ramsay material. Indeed, the fact that he has as many bastards as he does suggests he’s more of a Robert Baratheon type asshole jock than pure evil.

      “And in that world, you open yourself up to sexual violence when you do that.”

      Not at all. The show actually makes a point of telling us that Marg and Olenna both sexually manipulated their respective husbands to gain power without being raped or abused. In the books, we have women like Serala Darklyn, Joanna Lannister, Ellyn Tarbeck, and even Catelyn Stark doing the same. I also don’t imagine that Rhaenys, Visenya or Alysanne Targaryen, very influential queens in their own right, were raped by their respective kings. Additionally, I find it rather disturbing that you think Sansa’s eventual political triumph would be “unearned” if she were not raped along the way.

      “And while there, she has asserted herself much more than she ever did in the first couple seasons.”

      Asserted herself when? Where? We are more than halfway through this season and Sansa has accomplished literally nothing. She never taken the initiative in doing anything. She has manipulated no one. She followed LF out of the safety of the Vale, *where people actually liked and respected her*, without asking where they were even going. Since then she did exactly as she was told, whether it was by LF or the Boltons, every step of the way, like a good little hostage. The fact that she *volunteered* to leave potential allies in the Vale like Lord Royce, and instead marry into the family that murdered her own, with no guards or any backup of any kind, makes her look absolutely idiotic, and was therefore terrible writing from the show.

      “And I HIGHLY doubt that they will suddenly change course and make her just a victim post-wedding night.”

      It wouldn’t be changing course. With the sole exception of her saving LF from the Lords Declarant, she’s been a victim the entire time. She’s exactly where she was in Season 2: A glorified hostage of lunatics who murdered her family, waiting for Stannis to come save her.

      “She still has opportunities to effect change around her in the future.”

      Like what? Lighting a candle in the tower and waiting for Brienne/Stannis to come rescue her? That literally makes her a princess in a tower, waiting for a savior. Not exactly “effecting change” in any meaningful sense.

      “See, this is what bugs me: we assume that all she can do now is wait to be captured, when we haven’t seen future episodes.”

      It’s not that bad of an assumption. LF’s explicit instructions were “Sit and Wait to be Saved.” She found this arrangement acceptable, and that is what she intended to do before Team Servants approached her with the modified plan of “Light a Candle and Wait to be Saved” which isn’t all that different.

      “but her storyline has more to go, and she has opportunities to fight back.”

      Like what? Is she going to bake Fat Walda into a pie? Stab Ramsay while he sleeps?

      “In fact, the preview for next week implies that she’s planning something.”

      It also shows her weeping in the snow as Ramsay kisses her. I’d like to hope that she’s deceiving him…

      “As to how useful it is to marry Ramsay, just think about what Stannis told Jon: don’t keep your enemies close. If Sansa is going to screw over the Boltons, she isn’t going to do that from the Vale very easily.”

      In the Vale, she could ally with lords who had money and men they could use to help her crush the Boltons. In Winterfell, she has neither. So how is it easier for her to screw over the Boltons with no wealth, no substantial allies, and no armies, than it would be with all three?

      >Ross,

      The problem is that we are supposed to believe that Sansa has become an adept manipulator, and thus able to manipulate Ramsay. LF says as much, after all. I really don’t see the point of sending Sansa to Winterfell if she’s just a plaything for yet another psychopath. It doesn’t advance her character development one bit.

        Quote  Reply

    308. No One,

      You are not wrong, but not right, either. Your definitions of rape are very modern and thus anachronistic when applied to a world like Westeros. There still are extant societies in our world where the notion of a husband raping his wife is oxymoronic. These societies view women as ovaries with legs and nothing more.

      In a sense, this is no different from criticizing Daeny or Sansa or Jon for not trying to introduce democracy into the aristocratic systems. These are ideals that would seem ridiculous and contrary to what is “known” to such peoples.

      But the bigger issue is that the audience (readers or viewers) have to understand against what the female characters are facing. This is a risk that a character like Sansa would face by trying to operate on her own. It is part of the game no different than torture, maiming or getting killed. If you don’t want to deal with a world like that, then stick to Middle-earth: but GRRM’s world is much more real and his characters much more real for that.

        Quote  Reply

    309. I really am baffled by comments which assert that Sansa is supposed to be a master manipulator now, just because she put on a black dress last season and showed she could lie convincingly under pressure. I don’t believe the show has ever tried to make us believe she is as good a player as Margaery, Cersei, or Olenna are. Especially when it comes to using her feminine wiles to manipulate a man. She tried a few things with Littlefinger, but they were subtle forays, nothing which demonstrated a deep understanding or experience with how to use a man’s desires against him.

      Even Sansa herself voiced uncertainty as to how well she could handle herself and whether she was ready for her situation. Littlefinger buttered her up and said she’d be fine because it was in his best interests to talk her into going along with his gamble. I think he lied, she wasn’t prepared or ready to take on the Boltons, Ramsay in particular. But now she has no choice but to either to sink or swim.

      I’m totally rooting for her to overcome this setback and start upping her game. I’m wondering if we’re seeing the start of her becoming Lady Stoneheart, figuratively speaking.

        Quote  Reply

    310. Succubint,

      Then what exactly is the point of sending her into Winterfell? Why did she volunteer to go? If she knows she can’t manipulate Ramsay, and can’t hurt him in any other way, what exactly is she supposed to be doing?

        Quote  Reply

    311. Because she completely bought into Littlefinger’s narrative. That she could heroically take back her home and get vengeance for her family eventually if she was patient. Destroy the Boltons from within. She was tired of sitting around and reacting. She wanted to be a more active participant in her own fate. Littlefinger pretty much played her, stirring up her own romantic fantasies, praising her fledgling ‘game’ skills, because it suited him to have her installed in Winterfell when the battle goes down.
      He covets power and is moving game-pieces around to ensure he is in a position to grab more power, depending on how the pieces fall.

      I think it’s pretty well explained on the show as to why LF did what he did and why Sansa might have chosen to go along with his scheme. And now he’s even thrown her under the bus in order to keep Cersei fooled into thinking he’s backing the crown/Lannisters.

      I do think the writers are deliberately setting up Sansa to reassess her relationship with Littlefinger, and to realise just how easily she was manipulated. Eventually, I hope she takes that bastard down personally. It would be fitting.

        Quote  Reply

    312. So, for the record (someone is keeping records, right? 😉 ) I watched the episode a second time, and I found it better the second time ’round.

      Kind of like how I had to read AFFC/ADWD multiple times before I started appreciating them, too.

      The Sand Snakes still seemed a little shoe-horned into the episode, but everything else benefitted from a second watch. I highly recommend it.

      The re-watch made me excited for the next episode, and I forsee:

      1) Olenna dropping hints as to Cersei and Lancel’s happy-time, or Lancel himself coming forward,

      2) Ramsay killing someone Sansa knows, which is what Sansa is looking up at in the previews,

      3) Bronn finds out he’s dying,

      4) Stannis and Brienne come face-to-face (or at least I hope so!)

        Quote  Reply

    313. Succubint,

      Then this makes Sansa look unacceptably obtuse. Sitting around and reacting is what she’s doing in Winterfell. She *knew* that’s what she’d be doing because Littlefinger told her as much in the crypts before he left, casually contradicting his own earlier statements at Moat Cailin about how she would be “avenging” her family by marring into the one that betrayed and murdered her own. The fact that Sansa apparently believes that sitting around and waiting for Stannis constitutes “destroying the Boltons from within” (in and of itself a risk given that the Boltons could win, making Sansa stuck with them permanently) is terrible writing. Gotgifsandmusings on tumblr puts it best:

      “Sansa has no reason to go along with this. She has the Vale Lords on her side, which is rather important in case Littlefinger mistreats her or say…arranges a marriage she doesn’t want. So she has plenty of agency here. She gains nothing from it: daughter-in-law of the Warden of the North is not exactly a politically powerful position. The only way this would make sense is if she’s an assassin being dropped in to slit throats in the night. And while there’s commentary from the costume designer about Sansa wearing a miniature Needle (seriously wtf), this really isn’t Sansa’s skillset. She agreed with absolutely no specifics, and not even knowing the full political situation (like Stannis’s impending attack).”

        Quote  Reply

    314. Succubint,

      Master manpulator? Hardly! What Sansa is no longer is completely passive: indeed, I never have read such a passive protagonist anywhere else.

      What she now is, howver, is a rookie manpulator. She had learned basic theory from Cersei, Littlefinger and perhaps Tyrion. She has started to think “what should I do?” rather than “What is happening?” or “But in the songs, it is supposed to be different!”

      For the first time, we have seen Sansa ask questions, show insight, and absorb knowledge. Is she in a dangerous place and at risk of coming to harm? Of course: but her options for defeating the Boltons are extremely limited. Her unintentional mentor has shown her that this is a path that can work: and right now, she is hard pressed for any other options. B&W have put several character and plot guns on the wall here: let’s see how they fire them.

        Quote  Reply

    315. Sue, that last bit that you said there about the writers being clever enough to pull something off…that’s wishful thinking. The writers on this show live off cliches, excessive nudity and brothel scenes, shock value, rape and unnecessary sword fights. They love giving less than tertiary characters lots of dialogue (Ros, Talisa, Karl, Missandei, Myranda, Olyvar) and shrinking GRRM’s world to the point where we could infer that jet packs were popular in Westeros.

      The show has become a tawdry soap opera with overly choreographed sword fighting and now since the Sept scene, rape as a dramatic device.

        Quote  Reply

    316. I think the show has officially taken a turn for the worse. I’ll still watch, but so far, in my opinion, this season will go down as the worst.

      Jamie and Bronn in Dorne with their disguises was like watching an episode of the Three Stooges.

      And we did not need to see a rape of Sansa Stark.

        Quote  Reply

    317. I don’t care how much of a problem people had with something, do NOT wish death on other people. Not here. Those posts will be deleted.

        Quote  Reply

    318. OK, a very interesting episode but a lot of hissy fits and ‘I’m never watching again nonsense’…

      I’m not a book reader but I know a few of the plot twists coming up so this is just speculation.

      Littlefinger is playing a very interesting game, people are so impatient this season with calls of ‘he doesn’t know what he̵