Game of Thrones Season 5, Episode 6: “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”
Writer: Bryan Cogman
Director: Jeremy Podeswa
Runtime: 54 minutes
Content Warnings: TV-MA: Adult Content, Adult Language
Synopsis: Arya trains. Jorah and Tyrion run into slavers. Trystane and Myrcella make plans. Jaime and Bronn reach their destination. The Sand Snakes attack.
Video Preview: Episode 6 Preview on Youtube
*Note: this post is for all viewers so please use spoiler coding in discussion.*
Spoiler coding is still required in this Open Chat post prior to the episode’s official airing (9PM EDT tonight for Episode 6). We ask that fans use consideration for your fellow viewers, and cover and label your spoilers appropriately. Thanks!
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I’m doing a survey comparing GoT character and actor opinions between different websites. I’d like to see how WotW compares to places like 4chan, reddit and Westeros.org, so if you have five minutes of spare time, please take this survey!
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-s0C7Jvq0axogWHXpCZL3TuhdyqGKwls-7TZ7KtPgTk/viewform
And what else are you going to do while waiting for the new episode?
Hodor!
What, no nudity?
I can’t wait!
Fortin Bras,
Done.
Fortin Bras,
Fun survey. I assume you’re going to cover more characters sometime, because no Jaime, no Cersei?
Only Adult Content and Adult Language???
Fortin Bras,
I took the survey. It was quick and straightforward. Once you your results and have crunched the numbers, I hope you will share them.
Colty,
Let’s hope. Well, let’s hope it’s handled properly and delicately, anyway.
Fortin Bras,
Submitted
Colty,
They won’t show anything.
No nudity. That’s good news for once just because we know something goes down in Winterfell based on the previews. I wonder what this twist is?!? Probably Ramsay showing what he did to theon to Sansa and her face looks horrified.
My best bet someone will get eaten 😉
Oh em gee the Open Chat post is here. Get hype guys!
Fortin Bras,
done
Can’t wait for the episode. I didn’t keep up with spoilers – is anything known about what will happen today? Other than something that has to do with the Martells? (see title)
Aegon’s “Death” will be mentioned this episode!
Get Hyped!
Looking forward to more Alexander Siddig tonight! Hopefully Dorne will feature in quite a few episodes between now and the finish to properly flesh out its characters. Hoping theres no Mereen tonight as the episode seems busy enough with Dorne, Bravos, Kings Landing, Winterfell and Tyrion/Jorah all confirmed.
Fortin Bras,
From the phrasing of the questions, it was hard to differentiate between characters that we love to hate and characters that we hate to read. There were some characters that I hated but thought were brilliantly written (LF, Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) and then characters that just sucked (Shae). And then there were some characters that I loved and hated (Theon), so it was hard to know where to put them.
Olenna
that is all
Can’t wait for this one. I loved last week’s episoade, it was really focused and it seems like this one will be too, only Dorne, King’s Landing, Braavos and some Jorah the Explorer.
The last Bryan Cogman episode too. 😀
We shall see. I think Sansa of all people sufferd enough trough the series, seeing her suffer even more is becoming monotone since we´re all used to it by now.
But that look on Theons face isn´t comforting.
Getting hyped for this episode!
What I am looking forward to :
– More Sansa : the marriage :'( , the godswood!
– A good Tyrion + Jorah dialogue (please talk about Jeor or something more meaty than “I am a person who drinks” even if it set up their relation on a funny note)
– King’s landing plotline. The return of Olenna and Littlefinger (I am sure the city would not feel “empty” anymore)
– More Ramin Djawadi scores
What I am intrigued by :
– Dorne : As many people I was not very convinced by what took place on this location, but I know I will love Doran and the actor, and Sand Snakes Nymeria (Jessica Henwicks) and Obara seem rather good characters and actresses.
(Sorry for my bad english, if it is)
Fortin Bras,
Done, your survey is a good idea, please share the results!!
No violence? Or is that just part of “Adult Content”
Prepare for the most disturbing scene in the history of GOT
Fortin Bras,
Even in the surveys, Bran is ignored…
Though to be fair Jaime and Cersei also got shafted
I just do not see Ramsey passing the opurtunity (like Tyrion or Hound) to have sex with Sansa.
Colty,
This episode has the big Dorne fight scene, so there’s obviously violence in it. The warnings are incomplete.
*book spoilers*
Just thinking about what that potential scene could be like, in one of the next few episodes, with Alfie Allen letting everything go, and Ramin Djawadi supporting it… Hhhggngnh.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
It’s happening, and it’s going to be really hard to watch.
jentario,
Yeah it seems like we’re getting the fight based on the trailer, but I go by the officially listed warnings on HBO.com. Oh well.
Ohh Sue THANK YOU for NOT putting that curly haired girly boy on the front picture for like the third time in a row. 🙂
So excited for our return to Braavos tonight! A man suspects there will be major Arya bombshells.
Also really curious to see what happens with Dorne because I think this will be the episode where we get more reveals as to what Ellaria/Doran/Jaime’s end games are for the season!
Fortin Bras,
Eager to see the survey results when you are done! Keep us updated!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
jentario,
Yep. Episode 509’s rating is similarly incomplete even though we know there ought to be at least violence listed given certain scenes that’ll be featured in it. Why 507, 508 and 510 have been rated properly and these two eps. haven’t, I dunno, but we’ll find out tonight just how off 506’s current rating really is.
Balerion The Cat,
And Winterfell.
Plot twist sansa seduces ramsay and he becomes the hero of the story. If the writers were able to redeem ramsay that would be insane.
Even better plot twist joffrey gets resurrected by the red god and becomes azor ahai
Judging by the trailers this week I will mainly be worrying about
The former’s story certainly has the potential to have me watching through my fingers, although as I mentioned in another post,
I cling to the hope that this somehow makes it better if it gets really nasty. *Sticks fingers in ears la la la in denial, when reality comes knocking I can’t hear you.*
Hoyti Von Totiy
I hesitate to ask as it is obviously a topic that greatly irks you, but why are you so upset about girly curly hair? Is it just boys with long hair in general or because the characters don’t have it in the books (not a reader so I don’t really know what people are supposed to look like). I’m not trying to be rude, it just intrigues me. Do you scream at the tv every time Jon or Loras appear. Or Daario, or Tyrion or…actually now I think about it there are quite a few guys with long(ish) curly hair. How do you cope?
wizardeyes,
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the storyline I’m actually most excited about. Ok, I wouldn’t say excited, more like scared sh*tless.
Ginevra,
From the phrasing of the questions, it was hard to differentiate between characters that we love to hate and characters that we hate to read. There were some characters that I hated but thought were brilliantly written (LF, Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) and then characters that just sucked (Shae). And then there were some characters that I loved and hated (Theon), so it was hard to know where to put them
I agree. I’t’s also difficult to distinguish the way the survey is written between characters you love in the books but don’t like in the show, or vice versa (OTOH it is easy to separate character from actor). Could have added a couple extra lines to make that clear. Looking forward to the results!
Jon Snow´s ( Kity Harrington ) curly girly hair and his lack of ability to grow a full man´s beard bothers me.
Book Jon Snow is a stern looking long faced young man WITHOUT curly girly hair!!!
This Dornish prince looks like Kit(y) and it annoyes me… its like a double poke in the eye.
Thanks for the responses, guys! I’ll make sure to post my results around here once I’m done analyzing the results. I’ll probably post the survey link once more in the recap thread, and I’m still waiting on some responses from Westeros.org, but I think that I should have some results to share by Tuesday.
I know that Jaime and Cersei kind of got shafted – I’ll explain why some characters made it in (like Shae) and why some did not when the results are ready!
Balerion The Cat,
Yeah I’m pretty scared as well but I’m fascinated to see how they’re gonna do it.
Lulu’s Mum,
With regards to Sansa:
I forget if you’re book sullied or not. If not…don’t read this next bit.
_____________________________________
So excited! Winter is Coming! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHgCk_LiSg
Tyrion also has curly hair, are you also bothered by him lol
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Aaah I see. What’s his face from Dorne does have a similar vibe going hair wise, although not the clothes. It’s like this what Jon Snnuu looks like in the cold, grey north, and this is what he’d look like in a nice sunny, colourful place. What about if he grew his hair really long and glued it to his chin so it hung down the front like a big manly beard? A big manly beard that just happens to go all the way around his head. Like a beard halo. Or would that just make it worse? ;O)
jentario,
Do you have inside info or is it inner conviction combined with book knowledge?
Very wild speculation :
.
Book Jon Snow = http://postimg.org/image/bdn7amjlz/
TV Show Jon Snow = http://venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/jon-snow.jpg
#theend
#pointmade
Do I smell the appearance of Yezzan zo Qaggaz? Why oh why couldn’t this have been GRRM’s cameo? 🙂
Colty,
The wedding is this episode, since no explicit stuff listed, must mean that happens next episode, or better; because of the hype, I expect hard core NC17 shit (period).
Lion of Night,
Rewatch the preview : Theon’s face at 0:25 is the answer to your question. ;))
jentario,
Maybe no one gets decapitated, or their throat slit, or suffers some injury which leads to gushing blood, so it didn’t get the “violence” label?
The ratings are not complete. Shit is going down this episode.
Not looking forward to
Afraid we’re losing Loras and maybe Bronn tonight. I’ve never been a huge Loras fan, but it feels like cheating to go out like that.
Doran and Areo!!!
Sophie turned 18 several months before filming began for season 5…
Clob,
Yeah but the character is under 18.
wizardeyes,
So was Dany.
Lion of Night,
I’m semi-sullied (stones but not the pillar possibly? although I am a girl as the name implies. This is the age of equality, I have the right to be a girl with boy bits if I want to). I get all my book info from here; tried reading them but as a very visual person it didn’t really do anything for me, so I just read everyone’s posts with spoilers showing. As I understand it there is some debate over whether
Not knowing what’s coming is making me quite anxious! In the UK we have a companion programme Thronecast which can actually help. Iwan Rheon (Ramsay) was on the other week and said he and Michael McElhatton (Roose) are both quite silly people in real life and spend their time on set giggling together. I try to remember this when they are being their scariest. Concerned for Fat Walda too, she has a lovely smile. I know she’s a Frey but I like her. The 5 words she’s spoken so far make her sound really nice. If she has to go perhaps her body could fall from a height and land on whoever does the dead. Not heavy enough to kill them outright, they lie trapped beneath her body and die slowly and horribly. Mmmm I feel better already! Starting to see the attraction for GRRM of killing people off ;O)
SPOILER of the books
And I also think that this is the episode that the girl who is sick and get sacrificed by her father in the HoBaW appears. And after that maybe Jaqen will bring Arya to see all the faces in the wall!
Stupidly organised with a friend to go at see “Mad Max: Fury Road” at 10.30am, we work nights so this was our best option, but I’m going to have to do a mad dash to get back home for the 1.00pm(NZ Time) for Game of Thrones”
Hodor’s Bastard,
If all the obese characters in the books he was the most over the top. His obesity seemed to define him more than it did Illyrio, Lysa and Kraznys. His obesity, sickness and kindness towards his slaves seemed to come hand in hand and made him one of the more sympathetic of the Essosi slaver nobility.
His skinny on screen counterpart probably won’t have the same degree of sympathy.
Lulu’s Mum,
Waldas big smile and very happy sounding, thank you Ramsay, sounds quite at odds for someone living with the Bolton’s whose supposed to be normal lol.
I hated Ramsay in the books with a passion. He absolutely needs to do f’ed up shite to Sansa. This is way when he gets his comeuppance it will be all the better.
Here Be Dragons,
On the plus side – Mad Max is really really good. Well worth seeing.
Remember, Sansa consented to a marriage with Ramsay cos LF convinced her the marriage could be a good chance to take revenge on Boltons for slaughtering her mother ‘n brother. The question is – what her revenge would look like? I don’t have a freaking clue. Any idea?
If she does not take the revenge that way or another then her trip to WF is pointless. And D&D can go f**k themselves.
Clob,
Yeah, what wizardeyes said. The law (in the UK where it’s filmed, but is also apparently similar in the USA) applies to all characters who appear to be, or are supposed to be, under 18 as well as the actors’ ages in real life.
I won’t bore you all with the details unless anyone’s interested, but all tv programmes, fictional or not, are covered by laws aimed at combating child pornography which are very strict in this regard. Think how coy the scene between Tommen and Margery was compared to if they had both been adult characters (and actors). That was about as much as they could have got away with. The more nasty the situation is the less you can show, eg use of force, very young characters etc.
Pigeon,
Historically, this has not been an issue on TV series or movies when they are depicting societies that have no concept of sexually mature “children.” Rome, for example, showed fairly explicit sex scenes involving teenage wives. (The actresses in question were 18+)
It obviously would become an issue if they were depicting something like a modern teenager. However, just like Rome, none of the characters in this series is at all like a modern teenager: there are boys and girls, and men and women. This is just another case where our sensibilities are completely anachronistic.
Lulu’s Mum,
What did they do with Rome, then? Or the Borgias? Did they cut the scenes involving married teenagers?
goodkinghenry,
She’s a Frey, who knows what she thinks of as normal? Perhaps she’s just very optimistic, or a bit head in clouds and doesn’t really notice what’s going on around her ;O)
Wimsey,
I agree, that’s why I’m a bit puzzled as to why people think Sansa’s potential scene is logistically/legally any more controversial than Dany’s was. 🙂
Norway’s constitution day and Game of Thrones, yay!
YzQ was one of those oddball characters who was oddly neutral within the chaos of Slaver’s Bay. A dying slaver who was respected by his slaves? Lucky for Tyrion & Jorah….in the book. I doubt they will go that route in the show.
I only brought up the “GRRM cameo” fantasy wish because GRRM has often stated that Tyrion is his favorite character. It would have been cool to see the author meet his favorite creation at some point, especially as Tyrion’s slaver. But, alas, we got some skinny dude who will probably depict a traditional abusive slaver.
Uknow0,
I don’t think Littlefinger meant for her to kill Roose/Ramsay. His whole plan seems to revolve around either Stannis defeating the Boltons and naming Sansa Warden(ess) of the North or Sansa beguiling Ramsay with her charms and being Lady Of Winterfell. So avenging her family is becoming the Lady of Winterfell.
Why am I not getting notifications. …..grrr.
Pigeon,
Well, strictly speaking, Daeny’s age never has been mentioned. Sansa’s age was, but her menarche was actually relevant to the plot. Time is progressing more rapidly on the show than on the books: all of the “jet pack” stuff ignores that whenever they discuss time, they basically refer to a year per season, so TV Sansa is a couple of years older than book Sansa, where time seems to crawl by relative to the amount of stuff that happens!
Of course, on the show, Sansa is just another Lady now: her age has not been mentioned in a couple of year, and it probably will not be again because age has zero bearing on her status in society anymore.
(They’ve done nothing about this concerning Arya, but, then, they’ve also completely given up on disguising the fact that she’s “all grown up,” too. Of course, I suspect that her projected bust-size was not one of the criteria that they used when casting her, which is fortunate: Ms. Williams is a very good actress! Also, I am not certain exactly how heritable that is: or at least every girlfriend I ever had with a sister felt that her sister got those genes! 🙂 )
Wimsey,
Sounds like my sister and I! 😉 Mind you, Maisie has the advantage (?) of being quite small and can pass as the younger character for longer, so I suppose they could ignore the fact that time passes the same for both to an extent. Sophie is as tall as me I think (5’9″ish) with the fair skin that can make us seem older as young women (I looked 22 when I was 14, and pretty much still do).
Sansa was not aware that Stannis’s army is at the Wall, she had consented to the marriage anyway. Besides, if Stannis kills Boltons that’s not her revenge. Therefore her trip to WF is pointless.
Avenging her family is becoming the Lady of Winterfell? But if she becomes lady of WF she adopts a subservient role/position in her new family as well. How that could be the revenge?
Pigeon,
Yeah, I would say that you cannot win for losing on that score. We men manage to simultaneously communicate “you need to be skinny” and “you need to be curvy.” As a man, all I can do is say: “I apologize on behalf of my fellow pigs.” The problem is that most of my fellow pigs aren’t all that apologetic….. 🙁
At any rate, Ms. Williams’ cherubic facial features will let her play younger characters for a while. It was almost a little comical, though, when they were trying to hide her figure in her squires outfit. (And that, Tolkien fans, is why Durnhelm would not have worked on screen….)
Wimsey,
Re: Rome and the Borgias. I don’t know, I haven’t seen either of them. Context is obviously very important, if the programme is depicting a society where sex between teenagers is common place for example. And the ratings (as in the age range who can watch it). However the law is intended first and foremost to protect children and this trumps anything else. There is certainly no artistic ‘right’ to show whatever you want to. There is a whole grey area but I gather that implying things is always preferable to showing them. Like Sansa in the bath – we see her bare arms and shoulders and assume she’s naked, but you don’t see that. I work with lawyers (who I got the info from) and they said the advice would be if in doubt – don’t!
I think it works like speeding: the top speed limit here is 70mph. If you drive at 71mph you are breaking the law and could be prosecuted, but it’s unlikely and the penalties you would face are at the bottom end of the scale. If you are doing 150mph (people have) your chances of being prosecuted are 99.9999% and you get the top penalties possible.
On top of that tv companies have their own guidelines and can, and do, censor things themselves. Not sex related, but as an example, my brother watched Towering Inferno in the middle of the afternoon and huge chunks of the film had been cut out as it wasn’t deemed suitable for all. Basically all the bits where anyone was within 10ft of fire. I think they’d managed to cut every single death to the point it didn’t make any sense as a film.
Sorry for the length it’s not the sort of thing you can explain in two sentences.
TLDR: don’t show it!
So, you’re saying there’s some sort of exception within the law if a show or film is set in a certain time-period?
How old were the characters supposed to be, and based on the character’s ages, how much was shown? As has already been pointed out, the scene with Margaery and Tommen was, technically, a sex scene, yet nothing was really shown other than some movement beneath the covers, Margaery’s back and a bit of her butt, and we heard some heavy breathing. Certain things can be depicted, but only within the parameters set forth by the law.
Uknow0,
I didn’t claim any of it makes sense. I’m just saying I seriously doubt she will orchestrate some sort of murder or overthrow the Boltons. I’m just not seeing it. As I’ve said before, Sansa in Winterfell is strictly there to up the drama. It will never really make much sense, and I have to believe D&D knew this, but cared more about the audience having an attachment to Ramsay’s bride in the Winterfell storyline.
People already whining about a scene that we haven’t seen yet? Shocker.
And if it is brutal, so what? It’s a fictional story filled with fictional characters, people. Nothing makes me laugh more than when people go on about scenes that are “hard to watch” or scenes that they “had to look away” from. GoT is supposed to be uncomfortable, and it’s those scenes that make it what it is.
Nevermind.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Don’t mind them. A troll. Post is gone now.
Do we think that you can get the same level of sympathy for a character when you have horrible things happen to them off screen, not that i want to see Sansa raped (if indeed that is what’s to happen) i just feel like i would feel more outraged and sympathetic if i actually saw it happen rather than viewing it through Reek’s eyes.
P.S. Further to my speeding analogy I’m sure I read that in the first series Dany is supposed to be 17, so all shots of her topless or fully naked and/or having sexy time are actually illegal in the UK. Naked and/or sexy time by choice = bad, naked and/or sexy time by force = definitely worse. Technically speaking, anyone producing (D&D, HBO et al), showing (tv company), distributing (dvd shops, streaming websites etc) or in possession of (have any copy in any form, dvds, images on computers etc) the relevant parts of scenes is breaking the law and could be prosecuted. So to my fellow UK Watchers we are probably all unwittingly fugitives from the law! *Sings breaking the law, breaking the law waaaaah* (that last bit is a heavy metal guitar noise, it’s a Judas Priest song.)
EDIT: Sorry for excessive posting. I’ll shut up now :O)
Roose On The Loose,
Yeah, I’d totally empathize more with Sansa if they were to show her naked too!
Agreed completely. The reason I loved the books is because they were real and depicted the crazy shite that happens in real life. This ain’t no nerd fantasy Harry potter shite.
The people who complained about the theon torture scenes were whiners. Ramsay is a bad MF and does bad things. We read about them in the books and the show could not rely on flashbacks.
As a character and a Stark I like Sansa but Ramsay needs to do some Jeyne Poole stuff to further the storyline.
At least she won’t have to bang the dog
Roose On The Loose,
I think so. *Showing* isn’t always the best route to take in order to evoke whatever emotions you want to convey to your audience.
I’ll give you a good example: the movie “Alien” (1979) . A lot of what made that film terrifying was that we did not actually see the alien for most of the movie. The claustrophobia, suspense and knowledge that an alien is aboard the spacecraft was enough.
You are referring to the
Can’t wait to see people freaking out about Sansa’s wedding night. Bryan Cogman said he’ll be off-twitter tonight. His excuse was to avoid Mad Men spoilers. I don’t buy it one bit.
That’s what I’m thinking. The TV-MA S or V rating means that the S and the V are to the point of being MA rather than TV-14 or TV-PG, for instance. The TV-14 ratings for both of these are intense sexual situations (S) and intense violence (V) rather than the -MA ratings, which are explicit sexual activity (S) and graphic violence (V). http://www.tvguidelines.org/ratings.htm
Lulu’s Mum,
In the books Margaery, Robb and Jon are also all under 18 in the books at plot points on the show that had them naked and/or in love scenes (or in one of Jon’s cases, his double). They just don’t mention character ages much on the show. It was a plot device back when Tyrion asked Sansa. Even then though, Sophie didn’t appear that young. An unknown amount of time has passed since then in the show world and Sophie does look her actual age of 19 (now) in real life. Another thing is that this is a show based on the books but it doesn’t follow it precisely, as everyone knows. If they went by the book ages half the people that have been naked on the show would be under 18.
Wimsey,
People of either gender have equal opportunity at being asshats on all levels for all different reasons, or not at all, so really apologizing for pigs of the world is a pretty good indication that a person isn’t one. 😉
Yeah, costume and a hairdo can do much, but only so much, and we’re left to ignore the rest.
Fortin Bras,
Id be very interested in your results; I am suspecting that for the most part, actors have gotten all 9s, but the characters probably rank all over the place. Would love to see a comparision between people who only watched the show versus ones who read the books as well.
Also by not showing, people will naturally assume the worst possible outcome happened.
Not showing it does not make it any less meaningful its the opposite it makes it kinda worse.
Bard,
Heh. Did the dying YzQ really fully comprehend their job as halftime entertainment? Were the lions part of the deal? Maybe YzQ didn’t read the fine print in the contract regarding post-jousting options….
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
But that wouldn’t explain why 509 an episode that will include very violent sequences
isn’t rated for violence either. I think it’s as Jentario observes, an incomplete or place-holder rating.
I’m totally dreading and looking forward to the Sansa wedding. I may have to watch it all like this .
https://twitter.com/adewale/status/600029295495352321
Aryamad,
i think probably 98% of the fan base will be doing the same
Roose On The Loose,
That isn’t something a true Bolton fan would say.
Greenjones,
The way I understand it, although I could be wrong, is they do use certain things as placeholders, but update them as an episode is about to air. Thus, what’s written about episode 9 is just a place holder, but what’s written about the episode tonight should have already been updated. Either it wasn’t, as many have suggested, or it didn’t need to be. We’ll find out in a little over 2 hours.
Greenjones,
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!! I’d been wondering when we were finally going to get to see him!
if Sansa’s wedding is this episode, hopefully we get an actual Northern wedding. None of this “Father.. Mother.. Smith…etc” vows like Robb’s
Yung Wolf,
I’m in the 2% haha
*book spoilers*
Greenjones,
Yes!!
ace,
The preview shows it’s in the Godswood.
Is this the episode mr. Eko will be in I tried to look but couldn’t find
Awesome I just asked this question lol
Hey guys i’m doing a Westeros fighters bracket, wondering how many of you would be interested in it. here is the link for it here http://challonge.com/WesterosFightClub , would you guys vote for the winner if this were posted each week or every few days?
Please, please let there be a scene between Cersei and Olenna in this episode. It’ll be so freaking epic.
Or it is a very clever double bluff. You know, the sort of thing that someone would do on Game of Thrones!
(I bet that Robert Baratheon did a great “sensitive guy” routine when it worked for him.)
King of the Ashes,
The first rule of Westeros Fight Club is….
RandomGoTfan,
One of the promo pictures has Ollenna in the Tower of the Hand (you can see Tywin’s lion decoration in the background.) So I’d guess there will be a scene with them both. Olenna and Cersei, Olenna and Littlefinger, Olenna and Margaery… it seems we will follow Olenna a lot this episode, maybe more than ever before.
Yes, but presumably most of them are locked up somewhere.
Hodor’s Bastard,
cut their tongues out so they can’t talk about Westeros fight club
Wimsey,
*raises glass*
Hm, so I guess Adewale will be a pirate, then?
Luka Nieto,
Excitement overload now
I’m no expert on this, as I’m sure you can tell, but it probably helps to see it from the angle of what the law is trying to achieve, which is to catch anyone involved in child sexual abuse or exploitation (the preferred term for child pornography). In order to do this it has to cover all images of children to prevent anyone using legal loopholes to avoid prosecution, by claiming that something isn’t supposed to be pornographic and therefore isn’t illegal. So everything which isn’t in any way abusing or exploiting children is covered as well and has to follow the same rules. Sorry if I’m repeating myself here, don’t have time to go back and read what I’ve already said!
If we ignore the actors themselves – who have to be over 18 – and just concentrate on the characters, it applies if they appear to be under 18 (even if they are supposed to be older) or are supposed to be under 18 (even if they appear to be older). So in terms of what the law is used for, someone might make pornography with people who are over 18 but look younger and pass them off as under 18. This still counts even though they aren’t children because they apparently are.
I’m not very good at telling ages but I think the three you mentioned, Margery, Jon and Robb, all look quite a lot older than 18 so it’s not a problem for them, but the characters in their early-mid teens (even thought the actors are usually a few years older) are in that grey area when it’s difficult to be sure how old they are, or are supposed to be, which is where the programme makers have to be a lot more careful.
I think D&D have said that they purposefully aged up many of the younger characters precisely because people generally don’t want to watch sex scenes apparently featuring young teenagers, quite apart from any other problems.
Once again, apologies for the wall of text, but it can’t be explained very quickly :O(
EDIT: this applies to images as in tv shows, films, photos etc. No idea how it might relate to books (without illustrations, all pictures are counted as images even if it’s just a drawing – told you it’s complicated!)
EDIT, EDIT: This is UK law only, although other countries may have similar ones.
I’m headed to Durdens to watch at the bar. I want some Arya badasssry
Zeus,
I want a bar to watch game of thrones
We Bolton bannermen are misunderstood, and hey its only illegal if you get caught, right ?
King of the Ashes,
Wow, Syrio Forel vs Robert Baratheon in the very first bracket.
And it will be epic.
Shane Snow,
One of the many cool things of NYC
Hi everyone,
just a quick, kind of off-topic question since I couldn’t think of a better place to ask. My girlfriend and me will arrive in L.A. next weekend and we naturally would like to watch GoT on Sunday somewhere – if possible. I heard that HBO isn’t happy with bars showing it which may be why I couldn’t find a place online. Do you guys have any ideas maybe?
Wimsey,
Bobby B as a sensitive guy?
Zeus,
Hmm I’m right by Boston maybe this year or next I’ll head to nyc and find a bar to watch in like a finale or sunthin
KrakenDaughter,
You know when I first saw these tweets http://imgur.com/aiDKTlD made by him last week I thought he was creatively covering his ass for the potential backlash after this episode. While praising D&D he is also reminding people that just because an episode has his name on it doesn’t mean everything in it is his idea or creative decision because if this episode causes controversy he can’t just be like “blame David and Dan, it was their idea not mine”. But maybe I am just being cynical and am completely off base and his intent was truly just to praise his bosses.
Zombies That Were Promised,
What if she kills him instead? All bets are then completely off and everyone will loose their minds. (Mine went long ago which is how I can suggest totally nonsensical things happening, I certainly don’t think it will btw.) Are they included in King of the Ashes’ fight club? Weapon: killer put downs and a Pooh Bear stare that would fell a horse at 50 yards. Actually that probably applies to both of them, could be a very close thing.
What about this, guys? Anyone has hopes for an LS appearance in ep 10?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365598426941691&set=p.365598426941691&type=1&theater
Remy,
Sorry Mate, faker than the Kardashian family
Me likey this woman. She attractive! I wanna see dat desert land. Dem fountains n da spears. That shit is some real-life shit man, some real experiential shit my brothers and sisters! Queen Mother hijinxx b funny mayn!! Aw hell yeh jorah mormont killin’ it in the eastern realm!!
Lulu’s Mum,
I understand how it’s generally looked upon. In this specific instance, just speaking of Sansa/Sophie, I don’t think they should feel like their hands are tied moving forward. I’m not suggesting that they will feel they need a nude scene or that Sophie would be willing. You may be entirely spot on that at the current point in the story they have continued to avoid filming such a thing with her. However, Sansa in the books has aged just three years (11-14). If GRRM completes the book series with that sort of time rate she wouldn’t ever be ‘legal,’ if she lives. By the show’s 7th season Sophie will be in her 20’s… I can’t see why they couldn’t do a scene then, with all parties willing…
The Rat Kook,
I know, crazy right, It was totally random. I think Khal Drogo vs. Styr will be an awesome match up
Roose On The Loose,
I think that first showed up a few months ago and was quickly debunked.
Remy,
No, I don’t think that character will ever appear on the show.
RandomGoTfan,
I think somewhere saw a picture of Olenna, Cercei and HS. It would be heat, heat tonight!
King of the Ashes,
How is the winner determined?
btw – Drogo would wipe the floor with Styr.
Remy,
Unfortunately, that has already been proven to be a fake. So stupid what people will do to create false hype.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
of course he would… and you guys would vote here on the site
About Sansa tonight:
Belacel,
Preview spoilers
One of Roose Bolton’s leeches,
Hum… not sure.
King of the Ashes,
Ah, so whoever gets the most votes wins. Got it.
I’d play. 🙂
King of the Ashes, I love brackets and hate sports. I’m IN!
Re the debate about under-age characters on TV, I’d just point out that 1 Year Earth time is not likely to be the same as 1 Year GRRM-Planet time. For one thing the seasons don’t follow regular Earth-seasons, so you can’t count the number of winters someone has seen as equivalent to their earth-age, for example. You could count their name days, but this could be based on an arbitrary number of months and days in a GRRM-Year, so that’s no real guide either. No-one has stated that they are on Earth, and I think that gives enough wriggle-room for the producers to base their restrains purely on actress age, not notional Westeros age.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Rygritte,
Awesome!!!
Clob,
Sorry it’s very difficult to express tone online and I might sound like I’m saying no this definitely can’t happen due to the law. As I mentioned the scenes with Dany in series 1 may well be illegal but got included and shown ok.
I think the whole conversation started off with people speculating that now Sophie is of age we might get a whole lot more Sansa than previously and I was just trying explain why there are other (rather complicated) things to take into account that wouldn’t apply if Sansa was apparently a little older. If she and D&D are happy to do so we might see a lot more than I have speculated, either now or later in the story. She has to survive ’cos I want her to be the cause of Littlefinger’s downfall, preferably on purpose but I could live with accidentally! :O)
I have no idea what D&D take into consideration, apart from a few little things I mentioned, like aging up characters, but the contrast in tone between most of the sexual scenes involving teenage rather than adult characters is very noticeable.
At the link, I cannot seem to select those I think would win. I “click” and absolutely nothing happens. I sure I’m doing something wrong, but I’m not sure what. What do I need to do? #onlinebracketnoob
Greg du Pille,
1 year here is 1 year there, that’s confirmed by GRRM. Years are not defined by regular seasons, neither on Planetos nor on our world.
Sansa:
Who knows. Maybe I’ll eat my words. Only 10 minutes left!
*chews fingers*
Get ready to see your beloved Sansa spread her lemon cakes for Ramsay >:)
Fortin Bras,
Took the quizzer. Easy, peasy.
They repeat Ramsay’s pledge not to hurt Sansa in the previouslies. Yeah, not off to a good start.
Greg du Pille,
Even if the solstices and equinoxes are not regular, they can be tracked, as can the position of the stars. The maesters will know precisely when a new year begins. Watching the skies to determine the year is probably why the maesters came to exist in the first place.
Thank you D&D for reminding me of my own
Terrible scene. Lost all respect for d&d and bcog.
D&D are prudes and cowards.
Despicable how they avoided any nudity like that.
That scene just does NOT make any sense.
We want to see that for crying out loud. This is Game of Throns. So so bad.
Completely and utterly ruined the episodes.
Next episode they will show their hypocricy by getting the even younger Sellers girl topless. Sophie was ready for it and they decided not to go there. Cowards.
Well that fucking happened.
Oh man that was awful. One of the few times I’ve had to watch with a squinched-up face >_<
Well done, Game of Thrones. You still know how to get a gut reaction!
Wow, is that Sansa growing and becoming stronger?
Well……I stand corrected.
That was rather sickening.
I’m willing to see where this goes, but I wish they would have written Sansa as trying to do more to manipulate Ramsay. I thought she was biding her time at first, learning about the people in her environment so that her first attempts at control wouldn’t backfire. Maybe she’s still doing that. But… how long is it going to take? And how much is she going to suffer? I’m tired of her being a victim.
Hmmm…
1st Impression. This was not a good episode… on many levels, Awful writing in that pirates take Jorah & Tyrion scene and many other inconsistancies 🙁
First time I’ve felt disappointed in a GOT episode.
Feel sad!
Terrific episode start to finish. The whole thing is one long knife-twist, and that end is easily the most uncomfortable ending to an episode of the show, um, ever.
Ramsey is a bed guy and she has got the Jeyne Poole storyline so it was inevitable. But I need a drink!
They worked around it, but I don’t mind. The shot of Alfie’s face reflected all our thoughts and we didn’t need to see it.
I don’t know who the hell do you think you are speaking for Sophie and her choices, but what you are describing would’ve haunted her career. And in truth, Alfie’s face has been emoting so much this season and that face sold the scene more then any blunt showcase of Ramsay pounding Sansa could ever have done.
What???
The very first episode of the entire series had a rape scene. People can’t complain about rape in season 5.
Have you read the books? Worse has happened that the show has skipped on.
I haven’t watched.. how bad was it?
I thought for sure they were smart enough not to film a disturbing rape scene with Sansa.
Wow so many haters that was a great episode
Well that was incredibly disappointing 🙁
KG,
That scene was awful. And I kind of knew it was coming.
This is the first time that I have ever said this about a GOT episode and I hope it’s the last: I did not like anything about it.
So much for that super “controversial” scene.
And for anyone still complaining — know that D&D went easy on you.
Well…that was a depressing ending.
Sand Snakes still totally lame. Why bother with them at all if you are not going to even let them have one extended fight! BORING! As useless as nipple on a breastplate.
My heart was beating so hard and I was actually shaking. 🙁 can’t form coherent thoughts.
Estelindis,
Sure was. I can’t wait to see the Tweets.
My unsullied wife, “well they didn’t have boobs in the episode, so I guess they had to do something shocking.”
JamesL,
They showed her scared face and then sounds of her crying in pain while Theon cries.
Jesus, are D&D so afraid of negative vitriol from puritanical American nobodies they couldn’t show a proper rape of a 16 year old on her wedding night with nudity and blood thrown in for good measure, shame on them, talk about caving in to religious and feminist zealots. After all, shit like that happened in medieval time and still does even today, so why not show the truth in all its horror.
This episode was a step back from last week, what’s happened to GoT this year, it’s so tame. I was really counting on the second half taking off, I guess the slow burn fizzled and now it has to be relit, and next week looked pretty dull from the preview too.
I guess D&D want the show to stall a little so they can justify only 7 seasons.
Good god, I feel violated. Ugh. Also weirded out that apparently that was supposed to be worse for Theon than Sansa?
The Bastard,
But those were barbarians…They don’t count. Prepare for rapegate 2.0. Ugh.
How does that even work? How do the lords of the vale allow that to happen? It doesn’t make any sense at all. :p I mean even with Littlefinger what is the point of that? I’m lost I guess?… the book version made sense and no I’m not a book purist by any stretch, but that doesn’t work for me at all.
JamesL,
Now I am convinced that I am not being cynical, this is his way of covering his ass for the inevitable backlash this will get.
that was the most gut churning episode ending I’ve seen since the red wedding……bravo GOT
I’m going to need a big bag of popcorn for the incoming shitstorm.
And the Sand Snake scene just did not work. Again. Not sure why they went and got great talent if they’re going to keep throwing it away like that.
Here Be Dragons,
You mean you didn’t like the lengthy exchange about a dwarf’s cock?
Some people just have no taste.
OK.
Sansa had better shank him.
She’d better be an integral part of taking the Boltons down, starting with Ramsay and working her way up through the generations.
If there are no Bolton/Frey pies as a consequence of this, I’m leaving a flaming bag of dog poop on D&D’s front lawns.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
The Westerosi are barbarians, or at least Ramsay is
wow……. i loved that episode until that scene happened….. smh.
Terry
I am appalled you think that a teenage actress should have to subject herself to nudity as well as a rape scene simultaneously to please you. You really need to have a good look at yourself if you think we were shortchanged.
Morgoth,
Lol, this.
SJW tumbrlites incoming. Wait, shit. ABORT!!!
Damn, What. The. Actual. Fuck!!!!!!!!!!
And Ramsey is a pschopath.
The books set up rape as something normal in the universe. Ramsey was conceived by rape. Dany was raped. The Cersei/Jamie scene from the book was rape in some peoples eyes.
The show is really just keep with the rules of the books.
Not saying I liked the scene. I cringed….
Blind Beth,
Focusing on Theon isn’t meant to imply this is worse for Theon, it is done to avoid showing the graphic imagery of what is happening.
king Stannis,
Yes, I have read the books in all entirety. I was ShowSansa’s age.
Loved the subterranean chamber of faces!
Dorne (especially the SS) is difficult to accept.
Tyrion & Jorah was ok. Jorah realizing his father was dead was decent.
Stannis better fucking destroy the Boltons, or else.
Sansa…(sigh)…may she find a way….(sigh)
No whisper from the weirwood….. Fail!
Alix the Direwolf,
Yeah. Not good so far. I can only hope that they had to be introduced this season so Doran can send them on their mission that GRRM claims will be so important in TWOW. Oh well, hopefully Doran gets more screen time the rest of the season.
Poor Sansa! Perhaps she’ll have more empathy for Theon, now that she’s had a taste of what his life’s been like, but I really, really hate that they put her through that. All of that talk about her being able to handle Ramsay seems pointless after a scene like that. He’ll get his comeuppance, sure, but at some point, enough is enough.
I loved the hall of faces – wow, wow, wow!
I cannot believe how little we saw of Dorne. Unbowed, Unbent, Unfeatured.
But kudos to Bronn for his best pickup line ever:
And kudos to Tyrion for talking his way out of a throat-slitting and talking Jorah’s way into one.
What is wrong with the sickos who wanted more violence and blood? Some people just watch the show because they have fantasies of being Joffrey and torturing prostitutes.
Blind Beth,
The Sand Snakes are stupid in the books, too. I’m not shocked at all that they haven’t translated well.
Why do they insist on making it so hard for me to find even one of the Sand Snakes interesting? Come ON.
No kidding. WTF is wrong with you people?
It wasn’t necessary to see it to get that it was horrible. Sorry you didn’t get to see Sophie’s body, perv.
[Spoiler] I honestly CANNOT listen to feminist zealots this time around. Rape is something horrible that happens all of the time and to depict it as such on television is NOT promoting rape. Why is it that you don’t mind seeing senseless murder on the show but a brilliantly written, deeply disturbing and emotional and story and character essential scene involving rape is taboo? Presenting rape as the horror that it is is how to change the dialogue on rape, avoiding it at all costs and making its discussion and presentation taboo will do just the opposite. But thats feminist logic for you. I’m more and more impressed by D&D each episode. The only majorly disappointing bit was the cringe-worthy Dorne sequence.[\SPOILER]
Blind Beth,
The fight scene was horrible with the Sand Snakes. Not sure if it was a bad crew in that location. It is the worst parts of the entire series so far.
Well I quit.
Well i didn’t believe they were doing it… but hey did it. i hoped that they change it and reek would stab Ramsey when they zoomed on Sansa’s face… but that didn’t happen. i know, i know i’m too naive :(((
StellaFleure,
I’m sorry. The way he was asking if you’ve read the book is disgusting.
I want Ramsay fucking dead as fucking dead can be, flayed cock and chode.
What he did to Theon is far to quick a death for that fucker.
It’s actually worse than Jeyne, cause that was fucking Sansa!!!!!!!!
But really, Emmy’s all around cause, brutally, I actually felt like I was watching a sixteen year old get raped by that sadistic fuck!!!
Seriously, Sophie and Alfie both better get all the awards!
Fuck. That. Was. Fucking. Terrible.
Don’t know how to make it through that bit again.
Fuck!
Lol, they didn’t hold back. Maybe not such a good idea. These reactions are priceless though.
http://challonge.com/WesterosFightClub
now open for voting!!!!!
JTargs,
Not wanting to see a rape scene be more graphic is not being a feminist, is being a normal human being.
Wanting the writing to be better is quite different of complaining that there wasn’t enough blood and nudity.
Well, that was a gut-wrenching ending.
My main thought for the day: Littlefinger is at last playing it clever, playing everyone against each other. It’s wonderful.
JTargs,
We did see the horror of it, thanks. Some of us don’t need to see the lurid details. Sorry your desire for bare breasts didn’t get sated, you wretched person.
They show nothing. They don’t have to. The faces and the words speak volumes. You know what is going to happen even if you can’t see it. Thats all there is to tell
Child pornography is a serious issue and every means nec must be taken to keep anyone from thinking that children are being exploited. That means not allowing nudity or a sex scene to happen to a character who is under aged. So I have no problem with laws that protect them. What happened here isn’t much differnet from what happened with Tommen and Margery in essence, tho it is much much more worrisom and horrifying. But even more horrifying is what happened to Dany in season 1 – her character was definitely underaged and there wasn’t much left to the imagination. Given that the season was filled with horrible deaths and deeds, it was just one of many I guess. But the underaged factor bothered me then, and it still concerns me now
That being said, I thought this episode rather good. I figured out that SPOILER
Margery’s arrest was coming and knew that the Sand Snakes would try to take Myrcella with less then stellar results. [/spoiler} So I wasn’t surprised, but thought it was done well.
Buttplugged Bear,
They held back as much as they possibly could. D&D could have made that scene so much worse.
Non-book readers won’t get this. And honestly, if they’re that sensitive, they should never even attempt to read the books.
The Bastard,
Agreed. Dorne is beautiful but silly.
They show nothing. They don’t have to. The faces and the words speak volumes. You know what is going to happen even if you can’t see it. Thats all there is to tell
Child pornography is a serious issue and every means nec must be taken to keep anyone from thinking that its ok for children to be exploited. That means not allowing nudity or a sex scene to happen to a character who is under aged. So I have no problem with laws that protect them. What happened here isn’t much differnet from what happened with Tommen and Margery in essence, tho it is much much more worrisom and horrifying. But even more horrifying is what happened to Dany in season 1 – her character was definitely underaged and there wasn’t much left to the imagination. Given that the season was filled with horrible deaths and deeds, it was just one of many I guess. But the underaged factor bothered me then, and it still concerns me now
SPOILER I CAN’T GET THE STUPID SPOILER CODE TO WORK
That being said, I thought this episode rather good. I figured out that
Margery’s arrest was coming and knew that the Sand Snakes would try to take Myrcella with less then stellar results. So I wasn’t surprised, but thought it was done well.
Loooved seeing Cersei and Olenna face off.
Wow, what a powerful last scene.
I just felt like I watched my little sister get raped. My whole family was in silence and tears…
Do people realize that by the rules GRRM created in his books…. that is not rape by Westeros laws?
Blame the Fat Man….
Am I the only one who loved this episode? I mean the Dorne storyline was pretty good, they managed to imprision margaery and the room of the many faces was just awsome. And of course that ending had to be shocking as it was in the books. Why son many people complaining?
I’m going to stop replying on this topic because I simply can’t grasp whether this is either sarcasm or the effect of this show desensitizing everybody and their mother.
But yeah, if the Sandsnakes-actresses marked this as their big moment, then holy cow did they fail in portraying anything at all. And don’t get me started Toby Sebastian, he looked the part though.
Good:
– Arya’s scenes
– That Jorah/Tyrion-scene that somebody on her suggested should happen and it did line for line. My mouth dropped.
– No Dany, no Jon.
– Welcome back Queen of Thorns! Good! Oh snap, did Cersei own you? How did that happen? And why was the scene suddenly aweful?
– Sansa was good here, loved her, Myranda and Reek’s interactions. Honest tension.
– Reek, reeeeek, reeeeeeeek! :'(
Bad:
– AAA has disappointed me. The scene made no sense unless I got something wrong, but doesn’t he mention that the pits are closed and then Tyrion suggests to let Jorah fight in there? Then some jabber about no free men ever fought in the pits, it all felt incredibly clunky and flat out illogical and wrong.
– Dorne: No performance could’ve saved that. Horrid use of NCW, Flynn, Siddig, Varma and Castle-Hughes. Couldn’t have cared less about any of their lines (or the fighting for that matter) and the plot seemed so incredibly stupid. The SS had the advantage of easy access into the gardens but still got outsped by Darnell and Cooper? Doesn’t make sense. Myrcella got recast for this? There better be something more interesting about to happen. There’s a lot wrong when Areo Hotah suddenly became the most interesting Dornish character. He’s not even Dornish.. -.-
I really don’t know how people didn’t expect this. It’s Ramsay. Sansa married him. There was no way out of it once they went there. I didn’t check the ratings for the episode, but after last season, I’m surprised if they didn’t have an ‘R’ for rape. I do think that is something that should be warned about.
WHY?
WHY?
WHY?
WHY?
LET SANSA STARK SHOW A LITTLE MORE AGENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO SEDUCE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MYRANDA TOLD YOU WHAT HE DOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously. This was supposed to be HER SEASON. This was supposed to be her BIG CHANCE to show what she could do. She KNEW what was coming. I was waiting for her to turn around, to kiss him, to do what she could to get him on her side. That was the POINT of her WHOLE CHARACTER ARC. For FIVE SEASONS. She was suppose to learn how to PLAY THE GAME. How to MANIPULATE PEOPLE. In the sample chapter from TWOW, we see her doing this.
This is the SECOND TIME they’ve added in the rape of a cannon character. And both times, it’s ruined someone’s characterization. Do D&D not care, as long as they get to … you know what, screw this, screw this damn show.
Agreed! It was/is a chore for me to read any Dorne parts
Ser Oromis Locke,
For people who have been hoping to see her naked this was equally gut wretching so clearly no one is happy.
Remember its acting. Sophie has said she do nudity when asked to as long as it was important (in some German magazine). So clearly it was the choice of D&D. completely ruined the episode. I didnt even catch half of it since i was just hoping to see her naked at the end really… And that’s actually natural thank you very much.
Other than them dropping the bomb in fear of antagonizing all sorts of people this was just a great episode. But it was ruined for me… I cant bare to watch this again for entirely different reasons than most. She was ready for it she said so… but they didnt dare ask her. Thats the world we live in. Violence, decapitations all fine but nudity no.
She could have stepped out of the bath as she said she was Sansa to would have been empowering but no… They just didnt want to. and they wont on this show.
But they are fine getting an actress who is actually younger topless next episode. Go figure. that’s just stupid.
Also how would this harm her career?! Are you serious? Being willing to do a tough scene like that shows great dedication to the craft and shows she is a true actress. But no nudity is dirty espeically if the actress started out young so we wont go there.
It’s beyond sad. I am annoyed and distraught.
I really shouldnt have watched live as this ruined everything else for me…
I like the episode, but the whole Dorne plot is still shit. Bad acting (from the “Sand Snakes”, they look more like a group of puppies than a snake), and bad fighting choreography (movements are way to slow, it feels like they are on slow cam). I feel sorry for Nikolaj, as he is one hell of an actor and you can note that he really cares about Jaime, too bad D&D have to drag him to this instead of sending him to the Riverlands and let him shine. On the other hand, i really, really love the sets this season. Specially the HoBaW and the Godswood. It was beatiful tonight. Deborah Riley is one hell of a designer.
Great job, D&D, for realizing that what Sansa’s storyline needed was rape. That was the missing ingredient.
Terry,
You are a creep.
ash,
It’s fictional and the actors are of age, you dolt.
BranSnow,
I’m pretty sure he’s a troll (and also a creep).
I’ve been skimming through the comments and I haven’t seen mention of it. It’s understandable why there’s other focus, but they made a point to show Bronn’s arm being slashed by the spear… Um, poison anyone?
The Bastard,
I agree 100%
The Dorne stuff has been silly this season. But they have to push the plot forward somehow. But yeah that fight scene was silly.
I have loved everything this season except some scenes in Kings Landing and Dorne.
Storyline ranking IMO:
Jon Snow/Stannis/Wall = Very Strong
Arya = Very Strong
Sansa/Boltons = Very Strong
Tyron/Jorah = Strong
Dany = Strong
Kings Landing = Kinda boring and silly
Dorne = Beautiful but silly
This
Dorne may not be good but I don’t see how Jaimie in the Riverlands would be much better. A plot like that wouldn’t work for the TV show. Jaime would not shine in the Riverlands, he would bore the audience.
Damn… I’m so sad for Sansa 🙁
Best thing of the episode: Alfie Allen. What an amazing actor!
I’m glad Sansa’s character is so much more empowered this season.
It’s so much worse because I was actually on board with the Winterfell plot, thinking Sansa would actually get to be a player. But now it’s pretty clear that she’s just getting victimized and then rescued again. Great. Very different, not repetitive at all. And giving S5 Sansa essentially the same scene as S1 Dany is also not repetitive at all.
tyjon,
Wow – that is almost as sick as Ramsay. No, sicker. Ramsey is a fictional character on a fanstasy tv show. You are real and sick in real live. Hope you are proud.
Yup. This.
Woah woah woah…confused as to why Ive been thrown into the “why wasnt she naked” category??? I loved the way they did it and did not want to see any more. I wasnt one of the people saying that. My issue is with the people tonight and over the last week who have been saying that “that reminded me of my rape d&d are disgusting” “im done with this show” “i cant believe they would have sansa be raped” “im disgusted that they used rape to further theons arc” etc etc. Im arguing that these statements are ridiculous, not that i wanted her to be naked or bloody? Those were the comments above me. And im a straight female, by the way.
All the morons saying that it ruined the episode that Sansa wasn’t naked when she was raped are making me lose my faith in mankind.
I actually thought the Jorah/Tyrion bit was wonderful. Iain Glen continues to hit me in the feels with just his facial expressions, and I’m glad that
Having a trial for Margaery is a step back, imo. They could have left it with Loras for the same effect.
Arya/Jaqen/sick girl/faces – I loved it. Jaqen Yoda for the win.
This is terrible. I”m a big David and Dan defender, but this season has been really poor in my opinion. This episode was Cogman’s worst and by a large margin too. I am not excited by this show anymore. It’s becoming more of a, well I’ve watched it this long and it’s on tonight type of thing for me. I don’t know who to blame for that either. AFFC and ADWD were awful. BUT, the changes and decisions D&D have made around those two books aren’t good either. Both versions of the story are collapsing at the exact same point. And that makes me sad.
The Sand Snakes are just as poor in the show as they are in the books. That was a very bad decision. They should have omitted them entirely.
JTargs,
You’re arguing with a girl who was raped. Have a little decency and common sense. You don’t think it was worse to see than read about it? Some people do.
BranSnow,
Allllll of this. I don’t understand how Sansa last season became this season’s Sansa. Her behavior makes no sense other than the writers just need her to be a victim.
The Sand Snakes are comically bad. Bronn and Jamie just look clueless. Dorne is awful.
KG,
I don’t think that’s what this commenter was saying, to try to be fair. I read it as saying D&D shouldn’t be excoriated for including the scene at all, that rape shouldn’t be a subject that can never be depicted in any way.
Man, I thought the episode was great, and the best one of the year so far. Yes, the sand snakes are cheesy and poorly realized, but the rest of it was all great.
I was really feeling the horror for Sansa during the wedding and the wedding night.
I liked all of the Tyrion scenes too. I thought that the actor that plays Jorah(forget his name) was really good tonight, and Alfie Allen is quietly as good as anyone on the show.
His face said it all at the end there. That is superb acting.
That last scene man…wow!!!!!
F#*k the Boltons!!
Clob,
Damn, I noticed that too. I was wondering why they showed that little scratch. Crap. I did not want to see Bronne get killed by one of those annoying Sand Snakes.
Boohoo, D&D are the Devil. I’m going to cry in a corner with my beloved books.
I suppose they had to come up with some kind of story for Sansa, rather than having her sit around the Eyrie. It doesn’t appear to be a very popular route to take but I’ll assume they have a way out of it for her. As much as I wanted, and even expected her to ‘end’ Ramsey, she’d know that would be a death sentence. Without trust in Theon she’d also expect him to not help her. She needs to get her revenge when it’s “safer” to do so.
Sand Snakes so LAMEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Julia,
BS, they went the tame network TV14 route because they didn’t want to upset people and cause controversy, great art is controversial. Anyone who applauds the timidity of the last scene is one of those who would be very upset if more was shown, but that should be the purpose of art and horror in this context, it should be horrifying. The best way to have shown that was more struggling, bare backside, Theon’s tears, zoom in on a tear working down a cheek, then superimposed cut to a bloody drop working down a sheet or part of her tattered gown.
HBO really need to take the whip to D&D right now, that’s three misses out of six episodes, at least for me, and here I was expected the show to take off this week after last weeks incredible episode. On a positive, I loved the Tyrion/Jorah and Oleanna/Cersei scene, and boy is Tommen such a wimp, he cannot think for himself, he loves Marg, but not enough to resort to violence to protect her. A man not willing to kill others that threaten his wife is not a man.
Morgoth,
Nah, these are 100% pure unsullied tears.
Sansa. Shes going the same place as the books (leaving with Theon and getting rescued by Brienne/ captured by Stannis), despite all the character development to a player. She’s now Jeyne Poole who was in a whorehouse for a few years, ofcourse she is weak.
Sansa OTOH, was at kings landing battling Joffrey, then in the Vale and one upped Littlefinger, yet here she is, will basically be Jeyne poole. Weak as ****.
Sue the Fairy, even you have to give this a bad rating.
No, you’re not the only one. I thought it was near-perfect. The Snakes were even fine, I thought, and the more interaction they have with Bronn, the better.
Again, it was like one long knife-twist.
Dorne is really bad. They should have dropped it instead of LS and the Riverlands plot.
Yung Wolf,
I am not a dolt thank you very much. The characters are underaged even if the actors are not. But I doubt very much I can make you understand why that is important so I am not going to try.
I do agree with rightroarsBane, who thought she was going to be taking charge. I really was hoping that Sansa was going to have a knife and stab him when he was close enough. Or something. Anything to show that she wasn’t going to take it lying down (sorry). I fault the writers; they could have done something else here. Once again she is a victim and I thought the point in Vale was that she no longer would be
Exactly. I thought all the chatter pre-season was that Sansa finally becomes a player and takes control. Doesn’t Sofie herself state that somewhere in an interview? Didn’t D&D say something along those lines too?
3 unsullied friends who watched with me immediately asked me if that was in the books. When I told them no, they said wtf were the writers thinking.
Julia,
I think Im still not coming across clearly? Of course rape is difficult to watch and Im sure its much more personal and difficult for someone who has experienced it. That being said, difficult topics shouldnt be banned from being represented in art and in stories. D&D arent being disgusting or gratuitous or unnecessary, theyre presenting a horror that happens all the time in a psychologically realistic story as a horror that happens all the time. People seem to have this idea of “theres rape in that tv show so the writers are downplaying and promoting rape” rather than “the writers are representing something horrible as such to further permeate how horrible rape is and how real it is in so many lives” not to mention its significance within the narrative, which is separate and warranted.
Sansa Right now… or not.
Let me explain why this feminist is mad–D&D chucked out Sansa’s character development, just as they chucked out Jaime’s by having him rape Cersei. We were told this was the season when Sansa would become a player. Instead, they kept her as a victim. That’s bad writing. Sansa knew what she was getting into. She consented to the marriage, knowing what it meant, knowing that it would involve sex. You remember that “next time I’ll be a married woman” and the kiss with Littlefinger from last week. If it was Jeyne Poole, I wouldn’t be upset, because we know what kind of person Ramsey is. But Sansa was using her sex appeal to mess around with Littlefinger, Sansa agreed to do this to avenge her family. And when the time came to commit, to do whatever it took to get Ramsey on her side, she just lay there.
The Craster’s Keep stuff didn’t piss me off, because it was a bunch of rapists let loose with a bunch of captive women. It was sad, and those guys deserved to get killed, but it was expected. This is just ruining a character arc for the hell of it.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I didn’t expect it especially after last season’s controversy. I figured they would just consummate the marriage and Theon would have to watch. It is clear now they don’t give a shit about the social commentary criticisms the show gets and I’m not sure if that is a good or bad thing. I would probably prefer them to be a little more sensitive about this stuff as a fan so it doesn’t encourage more fans and media to turn against the show and bash it.
But this season was in desperate need of some buzz and this will get people talking so at least there is that…
I find it weird that half the fan base is sure that sansa is going to be raped in the book, and is now shocked that she gets raped in the show.
tyjon,
Oh, sorry, I didn’t realise I was talking to a great artist. Shock value doesn’t make great art on its own. Caravaggio had it, Raphael didn’t.
Ignoring Rapegate 2.0, I thought the episode was okay. Dorne still stinks and Arya’s story needs to pick up the pace(The faces were a good start). Margaery being arrested was a surprise to me, I thought Loras would have taken over that part. Tyrion-Jorah was decent, not great. I’m interested in Littlefinger even more now.
Nice to have the Queen of Thorns back.
Overall, not as good as last week. 8/10.
SerDuncanTheTall,
Too soon.
SJW’s have tracked you and are on their way to your location now. RIP, bro.
Blind Beth,
Totally agree!
I dont think its time to completely dismiss Sansa’s character arc and emergence as an independent player yet. There are four episodes left in this season and 20 or more left (wow thats depressing) afterwards. Shes not going to rise to the ultimate height of her arc in S5E6. I think shes shaken up by a lot of things right now and though she has learned a lot, she hasnt magically learned how to manipulate a sadistic rapist. This experience will add more to her arc and she will emerge stronger than she is. I doubt this will be her last major character beat this season
JamesL,
Yes, i realize that if they show Jaime’s arc on the Riverlands exactly as it is in the book, it would be sh*t, as most parts happens inside his head. But, seeing the Lannister army outside Riverrun, seing Riverrun, wich personally i think is the most beautiful castle they had shown us to date, and then see Jaime dealing with the Tully’s vassals and with Edmure (wich would also be practical to give that character some closure, season 3 did a terrible disaster by leaving a lot of characters with loose ends), would be much better than seeing him on Dorne. The only thing that i can think about all this plot is that Cersei send Jaime to Dorne so he could bring Myrcella home safe before she starts a war against the Martells. Because that’s what’s gonna happen. And i really don’t think thar Cersei, and especcialy Jaime, didn’t think about that before going there.
THANK YOU! This! All of it!
I believe that the scene was done as explicitly as could be done, what you don’t ‘see’ is almost always more horrific than just showing it.
Let me rephrase, they shouldn’t be excoriated for merely including rape in the story. But for having it happen to SANSA, that’s fair game for criticism.
house snow,
Er, no, I don’t think Sansa will be raped in the books. That’s why I’m angry.
ash,
Don’t ever read the books, you’ll be sent into a coma.
If you want proof of why television companies are so afraid to do mature story lines with true character developments…. Look to many of the comments on this thread.
This is why we get garbage like Revenge and Grey’s Anatomy instead.
JTargs,
I’m not complaining about the scene, I also think there are good movies about rape that helped break taboos about it.
I’m complaining about the way people are talking about it. When a rape survivor says she almost threw up when she saw the scene and you ask if she read the book that is awful. You’re basically saying she should have been prepared. It was poor taste.
JTargs,
That scene made me extraordinarily uncomfortable and even a little nauseous, but in the context of the world of the story, Sansa was not raped. She was bedded after she was wedded. She knew that’s what was expected of her, and she had every intention of doing what was expected of her. Was it horrible Ramsay made Theon watch? Um, yeah. Was Ramsay gentle with a girl who was losing her virginity? Absolutely not. However, if Sansa had to marry Ramsay, and thus had to have sex with him on her their wedding night, I thought the way it was filmed was well done, and certainly effective in terms of eliciting a visceral response.
http://challonge.com/WesterosFightClub
now open for voting!!!!!
I thought that this was an intense episode and overall very good. I am surprised about Sansa- I thought that Theon was going to snap and save her. I guess I am just a sweet summer child. Littlefinger doesn’t know it yet, but he just made a powerful enemy in Sansa.
Kings Landing is set up to explode. I’m very much looking forward to The Queen of Thornes turning the tables on Cersei.
I fear for Bronn. I think that he was poisoned. Dorne has been pretty awful so far (to be fair, it was awful in the books as well). I guess anyone can just wander into the water gardens. I don’t see where they’re going with this story.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I agree with you. I really enjoy Jeremys directing. Two decent back to back episodes.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Can we speak of consent in a mediaeval-like society? You can say it wasn’t take for them, and I agree, but in our perspective yes, it’s rape.
Exactly how was Sansa supposed to avoid her wedding night? LF made out clear she would need to bide her time to get revenge. But honestly, she’ll end up asking for Brienne’s help. She’ll light that candle, and take Theon with her.
SerDuncanTheTall,
that is in such bad taste dude
Long story cut short, people are offended by the statement made that Sansa would become a player, but is yet again victimized. But truthfully, this rape was unavoidable. Tyrion was a good man, Ramsay isn’t. No matter how much she played him, this would still have happened. We do see her being more of a player, she’s lashing out to Fat Walda and directly calling Ramsay “strange”, lashing out to Theon, etc. It’s a difficult situation she’s in, but she’s not as catatonic as she was in Kings Landing or the Eyrie.
As for Bronn getting poisoned.. Oh snap.. And as for Margaery getting arrested, they found a good and simple way to have her imprisoned, as opposed to the long way around the books offer.
All this. I’m personally upset because I love me some Sansa and never want anything bad to happen to her, but I know that’s silly and ridiculous. I’m -actually- upset because this just seems like poor story telling. Sansa last season was taking risks and trying to manipulate people. How did that character regress and become this Sansa? Honestly, was there anything she could likely so to get Ramsey on her side? Probably not. But other than swallowing her rage and smiling at Roose when she first arrived at Winterfell, she hasn’t really made an effort to hide her scorn or play along or do anything in her best interest. The scene with Myranda was promising.. Then nothing happened. I don’t think anyone is really upset that the marriage was consummated, just that Sansa had agency last season and now just.. Doesn’t. For no reason.
What would a rape victim expect from Game of Thrones, I’m really clueless.
Sean C.,
I wonder if this scene in tonight’s episode was intended to mirror a planned chapter with Sans’s wedding to Harry the Heir? I know that GRRM has said that he has a controversial Sansa chapter in store.
George will know not to do this to Sansa, this was so bad its not even funny.
They dont know how important Sansa’s Maidenhead is to the fans? And to do it like that? Why would Sansa ever want to have sex again after that? Dreams of the Hound and her are dead cause of this.
Aggravating as hell. Its just beginning, people at work are getting off and will watch the repeat, get ready for a shitstorm.
Seriously, that was fucking awful. Dorne was laughable, and Tyrion pulled a Shagga nearly word for word, on a much less interesting character they didnt even bother to name.
And? In the context of the world of the story, Loras is getting what he deserves.
Greatjon of Slumber:
Terrific episode start to finish. The whole thing is one long knife-twist, and that end is easily the most uncomfortable ending to an episode of the show, um, ever.
Perfect way to describe the episode.
I really liked the episode. If the consummation wasn’t going to be disturbing they wouldn’t have been true to the characters. I was expecting it to be a little softer, Sansa being clearly uncomfortable, and Ramsay being a dick more to Theon than her (he managed to be particularly awful to both of them).
But really it’s just like Ramsay to assert his power over her as much as he can (I doubt we’ll be getting much worse than this, and it wqs significantly less gruewome than fArya material in the books). It was in-character, it was disturbing, it was clearly supossed to be.
Eurio,
If she was expecting respect here, she obviously didn’t find it either. She was asking for it, right?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Yeah no. She was taken without consent. Its marriage rape. But we all knew that was coming once she replaced fArya so lets smoke another one.
My question is, will she still give BJs now that she’s married?
wycoff,
Oh, for the last time, the “controversial” Sansa chapter was released, and it was “controversial” because Sansa never thought of the Hound. This not GRRM’s story, or some version of it. This is D&D treating Sansa as interchangeable with Jeyne Poole.
King of the Ashes,
Little do you know that you’re more insufferable than he could ever be.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Yep. Alfie summed it all up once again.
Maybe this was Sansa taking risks and trying to manipulate people. It’s possible that she has deliberately sacrificed her virginity as a step in the process of overthrowing the Boltons. She’s a woman who has lost everything she loves. Maybe she’s desperate enough to take drastic actions to turn the tables.
What the FUUUUUuuu
NOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOoooOOOoooOOOOOOoooooo
I see, so it was fine that Ramsay raped his underaged wife as long as it wasn’t Sansa?
Face fact: this WAS in the books, just in slightly different form. Whether or not it’s Sansa in that room, the fact is that the EXACT same circumstances occurred. Those looking to blame the producers, forgetting that simple fact, are hiding behind blinders.
(I thought the episode was amazing… the commentary here after, not so much…)
I guess we’re just supposed to take your word for it. Too bad we’ll never know for sure, because the next book’s never coming out.
I feel like that’s the opposite of being a player. That’s like the Cersei Lannister school of playing the game (insulting people and making no friends and generally being not nearly as smart as you think you are). Was Sansa ever NOT going to have an awful wedding night with Ramsey? Of course not. But let’s not pretend like she was like Marg with Joffrey.
I’m taking offense to those who say The Sansa character is RUINED because she’s raped now. Really? Think about that for a minute.
Sansa is a main character, with her own story, which this arc is completely scrapping. She is not Jeyne Poole, and she is not interchangeable with Jeyne Poole.
Oh, something happened. The point of the Myranda scene was to show that Sansa is totally wrong, and Ramsay can hurt her, and her confidence is completely misplaced.
Julia,
Agree completely, despite knowing how horrific Jeyne Poole’s scenes were in the books it does not stop people from being affected when watching the scene on television. Normally quite like King Stannis comments but he was out of order especially when taking into account the circumstances behind the comment. If anything the comment made me more aware of the gravity of the scene and I hope the poster is ok. Lets hope that bastard Ramsey gets what’s coming to him! (Pod fetch my sword – we can hope!)
I was a bit disappointed with the quality of Olenna’s dialogue in the episode; but have been disappointed with the quality of dialogue on several occasions this season.
I don’t think the sand snake fight scene was that bad but should have been done much better as it was most definitely rushed especially taking into account the amount of people involved in the scene. Would have liked to have seen Areo show his axe skills against Obara/Bronn.
People have made such a fuss about the sand snakes yet in six episodes they have hardly figured. I agree that certain things have been badly done – obsession with snake symbolism in Dorne, Obara’s dialogue in episode 4 and those shoes!
Does anybody think Arya’s wolf Nymeria is going across Westeros helping people like the littlest hobo (showing my age!)
Julia,
I’m sure nobody is a heartless degenerate here, and I feel sorry for her. But still.. this is a comment section of a fan site about a show which involves tragic marriages and relationships.
I also thought that part was somewhat cheesy.
Well Sansa certainly was not Unbowed, Unbent, and Unbroken….
I’ll see myself out.
FTR, I am not upset about the scene and its content. I am wroth because this is HBO (usually doesn’t shy away from controversy, sex, nudity and graphic brutality) and a show based on ASoIaF, which in itself shows a brutal and graphic rape of the character that Sansa replaced. The scene filmed and shown tonight could have been cut and spliced into any network drama as is. I expect more from HBO, I expected a scene that would trigger an avalanche of controversy because of all they showed not the lack thereof. I was shocked when reading the books when the rapes occur, but the way they are filmed for the show, it’s like eh, I want casual viewers to be shocked the same way I was when I read the descriptions from GRRM’s prose.
BTW MS Turner, if this was the so called horrible scene that was filmed, jeez I expected more worldliness from a Brit, this scene was so tame it could have been, as I stated above, cut and spliced into a network tv drama.
Missed tonight’s episode. Did anything eventful happen?
I’m thinking people thought Sansa was going to pull a Daenerys on Ramsay and have him look into her eyes while they made love. Littlefinger said to do that. Speaking of which, Sansa is so finished with Lord Baelish.
Julia,
I was merely speaking in the context of the world of the show, neither questioning nor denying the modern-day view.
Sean C.,
Yep, in the world of the story, he is.
Does that mean I think a scenario like what happened between Sansa and Ramsay, or what is happening to Loras is ok in the real world? Absofuckinglutely not.
I think Sansa will have her big “character evolution” in the end of this season killing ramsay or something like that by manipulating him, and she will start thinking more cleverly from this moment on. Like it was the shock that had to make her realise she has to become a player. Don’t give up on this season and its storylines yet!
That does not mean that GRRM *didn’t come up with the actual story* himself.
It doesn’t matter if it’s a main character or a throwaway character. The acts are the acts. The general plot is the same.
tyjon,
I’m just so at a loss here for words.
It’s not the fact that she as a person is ruined, but that the character-arc appears to be completely changed in the eyes of said people. This happened to a different character in the books and to these people, it seems as if they’ve discontinued Sansa’s arc and basically went with somebody elses, hence not bothering with any build-up she ever had.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Ditto.
“The general plot” is not Sansa’s plot. Sansa’s arc is about gaining agency and becoming a player. Jeyne Poole’s arc is just about being victimized. This arc is a complete gutting of Sansa’s arc, and treating her as interchangeable with a minor plot device character.
Done. 🙂
You know, apart from Theon having to watch, that was pretty much what Khal Drogo did to Dany at the start. Dany recovered. She even came to love Khal Drogo despite him being a bloodthirsty warlord and slaver. That will not happen with Ramsey but Sansa will toughen up like Dany did. Hopefully she will eventually exact her revenge.
It needs to be served cold. Next series?
Blind Beth,
Wait until the end of the season. They don’t just “pay homage” to previous scenes for the sake of it. I have a feeling this is Sansa’s turning point much like how Dany began to develop in the episode following that controversial scene.
Much like how the execution scene with Dany and Mossador in episode 2 of this season was reminiscent of Robb’s decision in season 3 and it demonstrated how she is going down a tough road and how sometimes the “honourable” choice isn’t always the right one
This isn’t “paying homage” to Dany’s scene. It’s giving Sansa the Jeyne Poole scene.
A woman being raped does not mean she cannot have agency. What the hell?
Yes, legally, in the medieval context, this wouldn’t be considered rape. But if we want to play the medieval context card, Sansa has been prepared to enter an arranged marriage all her life. She would have grown up knowing that one day she’d likely give her virginity to a man she didn’t know. Back in the 1300’s, Chaucer’s Wife of Bath got married and had sex at age twelve, and she was totally cool with using sex to manipulate her husbands (though a fictional character, and written by a dude, she also experiences domestic violence). While that’s an extreme example, this wasn’t Victorian England. Sansa knows about the birds and the bees–she was friends with Margery Tyrell! And this marriage was an arraignment she entered of her own free will. Littlefinger gave her a choice, remember? She went to Winterfell knowing she’d have to sleep with a total stranger. We all can agree that, if given a choice, Sansa would personally prefer to avoid sexual relations with the Boltons. But she walked into this marriage knowing what it meant.
So why, when it comes time to consummate the marriage she’d decided to enter, when it’s time to do the duty she’s been told her whole life she’ll have to do, when it’s something all girls of her class are raised to do, when she’s expressed sexual desire (she’s not asexual), does she choke up? Because the writers wanted that.
Gross man.
Jeyne pool was a victim in a whorehouse for 3 years, its totally understandable that she is completely broken and submissive to Ramsay.
Sansa, is a Kings Landing veteran. She got Joffrey to let Ser Dontos live, and got the upperhand on Littlefinger at the Vale when she tells them she is Sansa.
This characters will act totally different than how she is acting now. She wouldnt meekly submit to Ramsay, she would have been what Myranda is doing to him, she would have manipulated him somehow, even if Ramsay still had sex with her, she would act like she likes it, or something.
SHE IS A PLAYER. Not a victim.
This is why that was bad, and a shark jumping moment. Not cause its different then the books, just because its bad writing, and lack of character consistency. Sansa is not the Sansa of 3 years ago like Jeyne was.
So Aggravating. So….bad.
Er, no, but Sansa has no agency. She hasn’t this whole season. Her role has been 100% victim. Indeed, we got that whole preceding scene with Myranda where she talks tough, and then the scene with Ramsay which shows that she is completely wrong in that scene and that Myranda is right.
Sansa is playing Jeyne Poole’s part, and she’s at Winterfell to be rescued.
Agreed. It doesnt make sense.
And if she had prenteded to be ok with it they could have actually showed some skin. they clearly avoided that to upset a lot of people even more.
Poorly executed. I really thought she was going for an empowered scene after the bath but no. Now she is just a victim again. It’s silly.
Yes, she’s taken on Jeyne’s basic storyline. We don’t know what happens to Sansa in GRRM world. Maybe what happens with her is boring as hell, and D&D realize she’s a popular character they want to keep around. It’s clear as glass she’ll get away with Brienne’s help. Her story is no where near over.
Turncloak,
Nah.. Just the usual HBO.
Sean C.,
For now we have seen victimized sansa, but this could even emphasize more her evolution
Kyrion,
Was she not undressing so she could bed him? She was totally prepared to do the deed. What she wasn’t prepared for was psycho Ramsay rushing in and tearing her clothes off and taking her like a dog. Now she knows how bad he is and will hopefully act accordingly, by organizing her escape with ‘The North Remembers’ lady.
Clob,
I was thinking the same. Buh-bye, Bronn?
Personally, I quite enjoyed that episode. With Littlefinger & Olenna back in KL there seemed to be a bit more oomph there, and it definitely improved things.
I also thought the scenery was fantastic.
I have scanned through the comments section, and it was pretty much as I expected with regards to Sansa. Far worse things gave happened, and the direction and acting was top-notch. It’s one of the things that I think is best to review once the season is over, but I can see why people have string views over it. Unfortunately though, when controversial scenes happen book purists/trolls really start enjoying themselves, and I don’t want to read the same argument repeated over and over again. I’m not criticising people for hating it, but experience has taught me, that these threads never go anywhere, and are plagued by trolls.
Overall 8/10
LMAO! Only the Red Bedding, Turncloak. That’s all.
Off-Topic Otto,
It doesn’t mean she doesn’t have agency. Far from it. But Sansa has been shown using her sexuality as an extension of her agency–for example, flirting with Littlefinger to try to get information out of him. Characters like Brienne and Arya use their fighting skills to display their agency. If Brienne had been raped by her captors in season three, it would have been sad, but it wouldn’t take away her agency. It would just mean that people took advantage of her when she was in a position where she couldn’t use her agency. Without her sword, hampered by chains, there’d be nothing she could do about it. She doesn’t have the people skills needed to convince her captors to spare her.
Sansa is different. She’s supposed to be developing agency rooted in her ability to manipulate others. She’s in a dangerous position in this scene. I don’t expect her to do what Brienne does and grab a sword. I expect her to express her agency by trying to manipulate Ramsey. When she said that Tyrion was gentle to her, I expected that to lead into “I wanted something . . . rougher.” If Brienne was in that position, and she had a sword handy, but didn’t defend herself, wouldn’t that be out of character? Sansa’s weapon is her words, and, to a lesser extent, her sex appeal. We’ve seen her use both, to various degrees, to advance towards her goals. That’s agency. Getting raped doesn’t take that agency away. Rather, the writers took her agency away, and then had her get raped for good measure.
SOMEONE THAT UNDERSTANDS ME!!
Are people seriously complaining about Sansa’s scene, WTF?. That shit was hard to watch. To be fair, I’m 100% sure that if it was another actress and storyline D&D would have followed the books (these are the people who added the death of a pregnant woman to the books’ most horrific scene) but you try asking an 18 year old actress who you have seen grow for 5 years that she has to strip naked and pretend to get rape to be true to the source material. If you guys are seriously upset about this then you have issues.
The Sansa scene would have been consensual by the end if Alex Graves was directing no doubt
Turncloak,
It’s a good thing Alex Graves didn’t direct it, then. Praise R’hllor.
What turned out to be interesting in this episode was that while cringing at the rape scene- yes martial rape is still rape- was that it made realize how fucking disgusting the scene from the books was. I don’t think they did a bad job in the show, what’s disturbing is that some people here would like to see that kind of violence- and that kind of violence is hard to unsee- even harder when you realize that it’s actually worse in the books, which makes me wonder, why, why would Martin go so far, in text where even Nobel prize winning authors, do not add bestiality to the mix. I’ve read some seriously difficult fiction before, but now I realize that Martin is ultimately disgusting. As a writer, not only is he just mediocre and the books a long winded soap opera, but he’s beyond the pale in this regard, especially in that jeyne Poole scene. Five books in, and you know what we know this is a horrendous world, what is the reason for this level of depravity? It’s no wonder rabid fans here are calling for a true depiction of rape- like calls to like I think, and this level of abuse is untenable and deplorable. I quit Martin’s terrible writing, his hideous work ethic and his if infinitely disgusting mind. See ya folks!
Straight from Sophie Turner’s mouth:
Now, out with all of you.
Yung Wolf,
I was being sarcastic 🙂
BranSnow,
Just because she hits rock-bottom in this episode doesn’t mean she doesn’t use it as the starting point for everything that comes after.
I thought the scene, as terrible as the subject matter was, struck the right cord. The people calling for a more graphic scene are sick. With that said, no one should be shocked, far worse happened to Jeyne Poole in the books, as soon as Sansa was subbed in for Jeyne anyone not deluding themselves knew she was going to suffer for it. The feminist vent/women exploitation angle does not really apply here either in this instance, Ramsay’s an animal, the books and the show have been very consistent on that point and its not like his track record of kindness to men is any better. What I love about the books and the show is how real they are historically in their portrayal of human nature and how they crush utopian fantasy. Sometimes there are no good choices, and you have to make the least bad choice. Be careful nitpicking and toppling imperfect leaders like Dany or Stannis you may get a Ramsay or a Joffrey for your trouble.
I used to give them the benefit of doubt, but now the Sand Snakes plot is officially silly. All with covering up their faces where their appearance is unique anyway, then uncovering them when meeting others… And Tyene’s cartoonish outburst at being called a little girl. Poor actors, they got served bad scenes…
I liked Arya’s discoveries and Tyrion telling Jorah about his dad.
Little finger’s double-crossing was fun.
The slavers discussion about the fighting pits was apparently incoherent, others mentioned it here… Why be suddenly interested in selling a slave for the Fighting Pits if they know no slave will be allowed to fight?
But on the bright side, Tyrion hadn’t just invented out of thin air the supposed luck of a dwarf’s cock!
Sansa’s rape was horrible, but getting a reaction from the public was the goal, they succeeded at that.
The Tyrell- Lannister confrontation was silly… Olenna was way too passive, she let Cersei and the High Septon walk all over herself. And the appearance of extra witnesses should have been so predictable for the Tyrells. And Cersei still doesn’t seem to live up to her absolute love of Tommen, pushing him to walk into danger a couple episodes ago, and now allowing him to sit like a subordinate in the religious court.
Now we really want Ramsay and Cersei to get their comeuppance!
I actually really liked this episode.
The Arya scenes, the Tyrion/Jorah scenes (especially the one where Tyrion was talking about Jorah’s father), and the King’s Landing scenes (Olenna!!!) were my favourites.
I didn’t love the Winterfell scenes, but I thought the… final scene… was portrayed pretty much as it should have been – Theon’s reaction to what’s happening tells us all we need to know. We don’t need to see it.
I have to say, I don’t get why people are acting like this is the end of Sansa’s arc as a player. I see nothing to indicate that…
As for Dorne… I see the problems. The fight scene was not very good. That said, I think people are hugely overreacting. It wasn’t THAT bad. And honestly, I AM interested in seeing where it goes from here.
I want the Arya arc to be cancelled. So boring and everyone knows it.
This is a reason why they shouldnt stick to the book if they change things.
I understand they want Sansa to get to the same place as Jeyne, where she has to escape.
But That worked because it was Jeyne, it WON’T work for Sansa. Sansa wouldn’t need to escape, she would kick ramsay’s ass at the “game”, hes incredibly easy to manipulate. He likes to torture people. And Sansa already hates Theon. Id hate to say it cause Theon is my favorite, but if this scenario actually happened, the real Sansa would start helping or encouraging the torturing of Theon to get on Ramsays good side.
But the show wont do that, she has to escape Winterfell cause Jeyne Poole escaped winterfell. Well **** that.
Why is no one discussing the fact that Littlefinger flat out told Cersei where Sansa is? And she’s going to have Tommen name him warden of the north?
Yung Wolf,
I have read the books, several times actually. I know what happened to Jeyne. Thats not my point. Its that when it comes to tv and films, the laws that are there to protect children are appropriate, even if the actor is of age and the character isn’t But you aren’t interested in the issue. Fine.
Actually it is a pity that the end is all that we are talking about because I thought there were many good things in this episode:
-Olenna and Cersei, and the aftermath
-Arya and the little girl, and the hall of faces
-Little FInger spinning his web
-Jorah and Tyrion’s conversation
-and actually, that the ending wasn’t worse. It could have been.
Oy vey.
I’m baffled at the expectation that “gaining agency” as a person is a linear journey from Point A to Point B, rather than something that happens in fits and starts, where you encounter hurdles, setbacks and unexpected obstacles. Sansa Stark has learned well enough to trust Littlefinger and to play something of a long game. But she’s not yet in a position to loudly assert all of her decisions – she does not have that power. Its clear. She isn’t Tywin Lannister, but she’s also not an easily overlooked schemer like Varys. She has value, but has not yet to fully use her value. She’s starting, to some extent. But that doesn’t mean she’s been “stripped” of her agency. What power she has is limited, and must be used judiciously. So she’s learning, slowly, to play the game.
And if she is playing a long game, then her role is to submit as the wife of Ramsay Bolton. Having agency, and playing the long game, does not always mean taking a position that is one of attack at all times – the kind of thing Arya Stark would have done, the kind of thing that would have gotten Arya Stark killed.
Sansa’s a survivor. And she willingly, and openly, went into a marriage with Ramsay with some indication and knowledge of what he was, though clearly not as much as anyone would really have thought. And so now she’s being confronted with an even larger hurdle – her husband. Who is really that bad, as we see now.
How?
ash,
Nobody cares about characters that aren’t Sansa or Stannis this season.
Olenna to Cersei was great. A great callback to all of Charles Dance’s scenes where he’s penning letters.
“Put that pen down, we know you’re not writing anything.”
To me, this may have been the darkest episode of the series. May be getting too depressing. We shall see-
One thing that was not clear to me- Were the Sand Snakes there to abduct Myrcella, or kill her?
No, she’s not. She learned to play the game last season, when she secured valuable allies and a position of relative safety. Then the writers jettisoned all that to immediately put her back in a victim role, into exactly the same victim role she’s already been in. She has not been playing the game at all this season.
KG,
I hope not. It would be a shame to lose Cooper.
I never saw it, but I could swear I remember those who saw the audition scene with Tyene
Hmmm… two episodes in a row which for me, were not up to the standards of the first four, despite having some good scenes. I liked Tyrion and Jorah talking about Mormont, I also liked the pirate scene, and the reminder that Jorah took out Drogo’s bloodrider. Dorne is very pretty, but Jaime and Bronn have begun to bore me seriously. Doran is still awesome. Arya’s story is seriously not doing anything for me at all this season. Can anyone, in the history of ever, be dumber than Cersei? Where did she inherit her total lack of any intelligence from? She now has made enemies everywhere and moronically trusts the guy who orchestrated her son’s death. Olenna will eat her alive; I only hope it happens very soon, there is only so much I can tolerate of her. Winterfell was short, and Sansa’s wedding night rape was very reminiscent of Daenerys’, though Daenerys’ was more explicit but didn’t have someone watching. Argh…. On the other hand, this might finally wake Theon up to start helping her. Just as Daenerys in Season 1 started slowly and painfully to learn to improve her own life in her horrible marriage, will Sansa ever do the same?
Do you really think it’s that easy? Is it so hard to believe that she froze up when the time came to disrobe in front of the son of the man who killed her brother, with the man who (as far as she knows) killed her other brothers watching? Having a plan is nice, but executing it is much more of a challenge. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that Sansa could have behaved this way.
Kay,
Most people agree about Arya’s arc not doing anything. No wonder they practically cut her out. Yawn.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Gaining agency isn’t a linear journey. But Sansa has gained some, and when she’s in a dangerous position (she’s just been told Ramsey kills women who aren’t sexually exiting, FFS) she doesn’t even try to use it. The show doesn’t indicate this is part of her long game.
Other notes: the Sand Snakes have not been given enough characterization to be anything less than one-dimensional. I should have realized something was up in their pre-season videos when all they talked about were their weapons. Also, why cover your face if you’re certain everyone in Dorne will support you? Plot hole.
The Arya stuff was amazing, and I liked the King’s Landing part.
The TWOW Sansa chapter that Elio Garcia referred to as controversial has been released by GRRM. You can read it on GRRM’s website and judge for yourself. In my opinion, the alleged controversy was seriously overblown. It was nothing.
This was my favorite episode of the season so far. Setting aside the Winterfell scenes, the episode was visually stunning, funny, and put things in motion. The Dorne scenes were not great, but at least things are happening there – and really, they were no worse than any of the Bran scenes in Season 3. I appreciated the debut of The Dornishman’s Wife.
Ok taking a breath, I have to admit, that outcome probably made the most sense given what we had so far. I mean, she’s not expecting a romantic night or anything – she’s expecting him to be an asshole sadist and that’s what she got (and Id argue if not for Theons unexpected presence Sansa would remain passive, but this goes beyond just a violation of her body, and with that, Ramsey signed his death warrant one way or another. And, (I hope I hope I hope) it will just make the ultimate vengeance all the sweeter…
But WHY cant they have had sansa start to raise the North a bit sooner? I like Brienne and Pod, and Theon is a good character, but if Sansa doesn’t eventually take hold of her OWN power I am going to cut a bitch. Blarrghyhhhhh.
Everything Jorah and tyrion made me so happy…
The Dornish are stupid and Aryas boring, hey book purists, you got a faithful adaptation, at least thematically.
The message I’m getting from show!apologists is that rape builds character (Dany-Sansa).
In the alternate book universe, Sansa is in the Eyrie eating the world’s biggest lemon cake.
How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?
Well, in this show, “Scarlett O’Hara” is a plucky northern factory girl hoping to move out west with the money she saves. Differences matter.
Thinking about it, it could have played out differently and appear to follow her trajectory from last season. Sansa knows from Myranda and Theon that Ramsey is a monster. She knew what Joffrey was like. In the episode, she is so passive and something bad happens to her and it’s awful and very sad. I’m surprised she didn’t try to manipulate him more, be a more active participant, etc. Sansa choosing to debase herself and play along with what Ramsey likes would still be awful and sad and tragic, but would seem more like the Sansa from the end of last season and less like a passive victim from the early seasons.
Yeah, no.
Three.
Wade Hamilton, Ella Kennedy, and Eugenia Victoria Butler. So there.
Three.
Wade Hamilton, Ella Kennedy, and Eugenie Victoria Butler. So there.
Weird got a double post. Feel free to delete one.
While I do enjoy the show and look forward to it, to be perfectly honest, the more of the show I see – the more I want to listen to the audiobooks of The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.
The suggestion the Kingsguard would stand idly by while the Faith imprisoned the Queen — while they were standing in the same fucking room – is OUT-fucking-RAGEOUS.
I don’t want to hear about “demands of the show” or “necessary changes for the sake of the script” – or whatever other FANBOY crap want to say to justify that. If they needed to have the plot go that way, then fine. Write it in a manner befitting the world GRRM built and which they have depicted on screen. Leave the Kingsguard out of the room.
Because there is NO WAY that should have been depicted to go down like that. The entire POINT of that arc in AFFC was that Margaery and Cersei both put themselves beyond their personal guards in the High Sept. That was the only way they were taken prisoner against their will.
That was bullshit.
Didn’t they have Tommen raise his hand to the Kingsguard as a sign not to act? Their instinct is to protect the queen, yes, but the king’s order is the final word.
Until now, I thought this season was absolutely nailing it.
I’m not as offended by what the producers are doing with Sansa as some here seem to be, because I’m sure her story will make sense in the grand scheme of things. Just think – Littlefinger went to Cersei to become Warden of the North – so Sansa isn’t playing anyone well. Hopefully that changes soon, cause that girl could really use a break.
No, I’m generally unimpressed because even though I’m an Arya die-hard (yes, sweeping floors and all), I found her story this week to be boring. I love Tyrion, and everything about his scenes was dull. King’s Landing was okay, but for some reason, I don’t understand why Lena Headey whispers all her lines while everyone else speaks with normal voices. It’s starting to drive me batty. Maybe that’s the point? Dorne lost me this week. I was with the producers on this one up till now. There’s not one single person there that I care about. Doran and Areo are awesome, and mostly absent. Kinda like the books, I suppose. Sigh. Snore.
I found it very odd. Still trying to figure out LF’s long game. Why does he expect that Sansa will be safe in WF?
The Dornish scenes didn’t improve. The fight scene was silly. There has been too little of Siddig. I am hoping that he can raise the game. Right now, Hotah is the most interesting character. Obara…ugh!
Sean C.,
I am sorry you are totally wrong. Sansa didn’t secure valuable allies and a position of relative safety. Instead she made a pact with LF. And the fruition of this pact we are seeing it now. She herself chose to follow LF to where he had in mind. What we saw was a girl flattered by an elder and clever man. She knew she couldn’t trust him but being intrigued by him and having no other option she followed him to WF. What we have now is the realisation of her victimisation in the most horrible way and this is the point that will enable her to become a player. You don’t learn to play the game by just wearing feathers and a black gown. The play of game has different chapters and you are in constant learning. And yes she has played her own version of the game this season too by risking to follow LF and by conscending to go to WF to take revenge. It was a step and a rather big step considering the fact that she knew all too well who the Boltons are…
Thank you!!! Agreed. Those comments were among the worst.
And I also hope this is a huge step in her character becoming something strong and amazing, just like plenty of rape victims do. I don’t think of any of them as “ruined”
Get your revenge, Sansa!
Do you have a link to a possible full interview by any chance?
Jaqen could pay me a midnight visit anytime. I am totally ok with that.
Could someone who has seen the E7 trailer enlighten me here:
I don’t get the comments basically saying that Sansa’s storyline is ruined. It is obviously just beginning, as evidenced by her
Larry,
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-wedding
Fantastic episode once again, but I don’t think I’ll be watching it again any time soon. What an uncomfortable ending, though I understand why it’s there.
Yes – apparently an almost rape isn’t enough.
Thank you for mentioning the fact that there are now 3 songs in Westeros! Loved that bit. I thought this was a very strong episode overall, though the Sand Snakes sequence was again weak.
Extra points for whoever it was last week that totally nailed the Jorah-Tyrion conversation that should have been… and then was!
About the final scene “ruining Sansa’s story” – no, it didn’t. It raised the stakes for her story a lot! It’s one thing to “be a player” with some nice folks from the Vale, and an entirely different thing to be a player with the worst psychopath in Westeros. That’s like dunking on some kids in the playground and then thinking you are ready for the NBA!
Whoever thought she could turn the tables on Ramsey immediately… really, that’s believable?? Of course Myranda was right (as we viewers already knew from seeing all of season 3). But there are 4 more eps this season … her arc still has more story.
Yung Wolf,
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: What was your reaction when you got the scripts and realized what was going to happen this season?
SOPHIE TURNER: Last season [Thrones director] Alex Graves decided to give me hints. He was saying, “You get a love interest next season.”
Why does that not surprise me? 😛
Ness,
I’m not saying she’s ruined as a person, I’m saying the writers screwed up her character arc by showing us a femme fatale with Littlefinger in multiple scenes and not carying any of that into tonight. Getting raped doesn’t ruin people–having characters get brutally raped when that character has the tools to protect themselves ruins a story.
I think I’ll just read the synopses for the next few episodes, or watch clips. With this and the Sand Snakes, things are just getting dumb. Arya’s story is cool, but the pacing feels off, and Tyrion’s just traveling, which is just boring. Be back for ep. 9
Uh huh.
I absolutely loved this episode.
Can I just get you all to take a moment and step back and just engross yourselves in the amazing character that is Lord Baelish. Honestly, this was the best episode with him in it so far. In the last 2 weeks it looked to be he was becoming a bit more neutral, but right there. Bang. Back in the game, and wanting it all.
Everything else was fantastic, except for Dorne. Some parts were actually more cringe worthy than Sansa and Ramsay’s backslapping (what some actors actually do to make the sounds in those types of scenes – cool huh?)
At least that part is faithful to the books then, in that regard.
As for people who have issues with the slaver pirates scene I think it makes perfect sense . Dany has reopened the fighting pits they say so themselves but it’s only for free men and they say whoever heard of free men fighting in the Pitts . In other words capture these men sell these men as “free men ” make them fight in the Pitts for “glory” Dany is clueless to this … Maybe she finds out and then interferes with how the fights will take place or something of the sort and that leads to what we now know has been changed from the daznaks Pitt scene
Dorne fell short of what was anticipated. Definitely a case of Don’t Believe The Hype!
Jorah and Tyrion? I can live with what’s happening there. It’s part of scaling back to allow bigger action elsewhere. Plus, I think it works out better as a political battleground in Meereen.
Tyrion’s got Dany worked out before he meets her? She does have a ropy claim, as he pointed out. She won’t be made welcome if she does arrive in Westeros. Tyrion would need more to convince him than Jorah’s feeble notions.
We’ll lose Jorah, of course, after he’s had chance to save Dany. For him, it’s like…. If the washing don’t get you, the rinsing sure will. Where that leaves Tyrion (did we hear him called ‘Rollo’ in this episode?) is uncertain.
A lot of people thought Arya would leap into action. A lot must be disappointed. For her story, we saw Arya take on an aspect of the work inside HBW, when showed mercy to the girl. Nobody prompted her to do it. Plus, it was more than mercy too because she showed compassion, and that’s what surprised Jaqen.
Seeing the chamber with all the faces was amazing. How solemn it was too. Did anyone spot the face of the man at the door when Arya first arrived? One looked remarkably like Varys too. (Coincidence?)
LF proved he’s the Lord of Chaos. Who isn’t he playing? Are we being set up for a big reveal regarding whose side he’s really on?
Sansa, to close this. I thought she looked absolutely wonderful. Sophie really is beautiful. Pity it turned into Beauty And The Beast, with all the romance taken out and savagery add instead.
There is no justice if Sansa doesn’t take vengeance now. News of what’s happened inside Winterfell will get out. The North will rise and take full retribution.
The bad guys have had a good run, even by Game Of Thrones standards. Ramsey’s topped Joffrey as Most Evil Twisted Bastard Ever. Now it’s time for the downfall of House Bolton.
And ironically, book readers are acting quite hypocritical, seeing Sansa attacked on TV is reprehensible yet perfectly fine with Ramsay repeatedly raping Jeyne Poole in the books.
One is a TV episode plot. One is a novel plot. But they’re the same fucking thing.
Where was the outrage when the last book came out? I’m just asking. Why does GRRM get a free pass on his celebrated novel, which featured even more brutal rape, just on some ‘unimportant’ girl instead of Our Heroine Sansa? That’s the hypocrisy I refer to.
Okay, just stop with all the comments about Sansa being a victim and not developing into a stronger character. She IS developing. She’s gotten BIG HINTS on what to expect from Ramsey. You’re telling me after all she’s been through with Joffrey, etc. she didn’t know what to expect on her wedding night? Virginity was just in the way, I see her using her femininity to her advantage now.
Intense ending was intense!!
All the crazy Winterfell stuff aside Maisie killed it as well! She’s getting better and better each year! I thought the inside set of HoBaW was pretty amazing.
For an episode called ‘Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken’ it went quite the opposite. The women-power of the season is being systematically destroyed. This episode almost undid all the good in the previous episodes. Sand Snakes scenes were horrible. I mean I really wanted them to be great characters and the actresses seemed nice enough in the interviews. But that fight scene was a joke.
I was so proud of Sansa for standing up to Miranda. Her wedding dress and the gods wood were all so beautiful, I couldn’t help thinking this is the wedding Lady Sansa Stark should have had – except with her family there instead of her enemies. It hurt my heart. The rape scene was like being flayed alive. I never thought D&D would do that to Sophie Turner. I even said they’d never go there with this storyline no matter who she married. Some abuse and threats – sure, it is Ramsay. But this? No. Some new actress maybe but one they watched grow up on the show?
No – they crossed a line and I don’t know if they can come back from that. I’m heartsick about this.
Wow, this episode. First off, I loved Arya’s scenes. She finally understands that death is not always about vengeance and learned that it can be a gift. All of her scenes were excellent. I actually really liked Dorne, as well. I loved when Hotah tells Jaime that he would’ve loved a fight with him when he was “whole” haha. King’s Landing was excellent and I’m so shocked that they actually arrested Marg in addition to Loras. This episode as a who was overflowing with awesome, except…
The Sansa scene. I just want to first point out that in general, I don’t have an issue with rape scenes in movies/tv/books. I am a guy, I read all the books multiple times, and I’m anything but a prude. That being said, I think that it was a huge misstep to go that route with Sansa. Her character was supposed to be progressing this season and this was a huge step backwards. When she put Myranda in her place I was so proud of her. D & D could’ve gone several ways with that scene and that’s the one they choose? Re-victimizing Sansa all over again?
And those of you clamoring for nudity and whatnot in that scene are fucking degenerates. It really makes me wonder about some of you hiding behind your keyboards and what some of you do in your spare time. SMFH
Ali Kat,
So….a new actress that no one cared about, that would be fine? This is not Cinderella where the heroine is untouchable. I just don’t understand this kind of thinking.
Sophie said in an interview that she loved how twisted it was (which is….interesting?) She and D&D have known each other for years and trust each other. They didn’t ‘do’ anything to Sophie. She is an actress playing a part willingly.
For heaven’s sake. What the heck just happened???? This episode felt like the jumping frog in a Mark Twain story. The following comments are merely my opinions……and opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
1-DORNE IS STUPID. Jaime and Bronn couldn’t look more out of place. Their costumes look like they either raided a dead old lady’s closet or got lost in a thrift store. And we left LS in the Riverlands with Nymeria for this? If I see one more boy/girl fight with the girl as the winner I know I will projectile vomit on the TV……fiction or no.
2-Loved Arya’s continuing saga. Room of faces exactly as I pictured it. Arya’s compassion while helping the sick girl to die…..really felt it.
3-Pirates?????? WTF? Jorah and Tyrion could have made it to Meereen on their own. This is going to be as nonsensical as Dorne.
4-This wedding more horrible than Tully/Frey??? We all knew what was gonna happen if Sansa married Ramsey. Did you think it was going to be a softly romantic Cinderella/Prince Charming loss of virginity?
If there had been bluebirds sitting on the windowsill, maybe. Other than that…..well, Ramsey has never done anything without an audience. And the Emmy does go to Alfie Allen!!!!!!! The horror and pain he expressed was pallitable……. Acting at it’s finest! Heartbreaking for Sansa, again. Let’s pray she gains a core of ice…..winter IS coming-the Stark words…..she must have reached her limit in taking shit from others by now. C’mon girlfriend.
That about covers it for now. I’m most likely wrong about it all but, it’s just opinion…….whew, did somebody just blow a fart?????
I can’t be too angry because this didn’t come out of nowhere: it’s the inevitable result of Sansa agreeing to marry Ramsay. But I can indict D&D for starting us on that path in the first place. It could work if Sansa had a plan for how she would go about getting revenge, but Littlefinger didn’t explain any of that when she agreed to it. That’s why there are complaints about lack of agency.
So Sansa has somehow ‘lost agency’ or gone backwards by being raped on her wedding night? Interesting – anyone remember all the way back to Season 1, when Dany was actually sold into a marriage by her ambitious brother (the nice one who would have let thousands of soldiers rape her too if that meant he got his army), to a guy whose language she didn’t speak and who was (apparently) a barbarian.
Also amused at how many people wanted more Arya, but who still manage to complain when her show storyline follows the books and IS actually slow-moving!
Welcome back Olenna! You may have lost this battle, but losing a battle doesn’t mean you lose the war, as a wily old woman like you understands only too well. Cersei rejecting your most sensible offer was not a good idea. The Sandsnakes were a bit disappointing, as they behaved more liked petulant teenage schoolgirls than warriors, but great fun to see Jaime discovering some of his old fighting ability and ‘improvising’. Looking forward to what happens when Jaime meets Doran.
Must say that I am enjoying Season 5, because it really does have an overall sense of movement and renewed purpose. Clearly the showrunners have decided that no matter if, when or what GRRM writes or publishes, they are marching towards ending the show in seven seasons, and people can either take it or leave it on those terms. Now, I just have to wait a whole week for the next episode …
I’m upset. On the (minutely) bright side, Sansa’s rape was actually tamed down compared to Jenye Poole in her role as fArya. I expected that this would happen this season from the moment it was revealed that Sansa would be taking over Jenye Poole’s storyline. But it doesn’t make it any easier to stomach.
Keep reading, Samwell Tarly…
Thought the episode was great and the acting and direction of that last scene was really amazing. I also loved the little call backs to earlier scenes, including some that were bashed for being pointless early on.
Really interesting to see Littlefinger spinning his web…and I quite liked the Dorne and Tyrion and Jorah stuff too.
The only part that I wasn’t sold on was Arya’s scene, which seemed to take too long for something to happen in (though I understand that’s sort of the point)
Great episode. Lots of interesting twists. I was beginning to think Margery wouldn’t be imprisoned and I love the way they did it. I wish Sansa would step up her game but I loved her interactions with Myranda and Theon. i also think the rape was particularly brutal without being gratuitous. Ppl will complain about it, but I was shocked to see someone calling D&D cowards for not depicting the horror GRRM wrote. That’s just creepy.
Sand snakes are pretty lame. I think we can all agree on that at least.
Some ppl need to be educated on what feminism is. It’s really disgusting when the hate comes out on this forum. I’m just interested in reading and sharing reactions and predictions, not being maligned for supporting equality. But I guess it’s the nature of the beast. Maybe we could try to be a kinder community. And if u hate the show, maybe don’t force yourself to watch it.
and Littlefinger is my hero.
you snow nothin’,
Arya’s scenes do something that I think is very necessary. They add a meditative pace and an element of ancient mysticism in a show that is otherwise chock full of political intrigue and melodrama. In a sense, they account for the absence of Bran.
Without these kinds of scenes, Game of Thrones is essentially a high-quality soap opera. Good on D&D for understanding this.
I think tonight’s scene will be very similar to something in TWOW.
Cameryn,
Does rape build character in the books? No. Like in life, it is a traumatic event that often ends with PTSD. Look at the images of Sansa in the Episode 7 preview; she is not a player, she is the Jeyne Poole character. The outrage should be directed at people who ignore that and try to spin the show as having done something edgy and bold to an otherwise lacking story.
Cogman keeps proving that he’s the best writer on the show.
The last scene focusing on Theon’s face reminded me of the “coughing” scene in the Turkish prison in Lawrence of Arabia.
There was artistry in this episode, though I guess it’s not fair to expect a general TV audience to pick up on that sort of subtlety.
Though I do agree that the Sand Snakes and Ellaria are falling very flat. This is oddly in contrast to the absolutely amazing storyline of Oberyn last season.
Of course her behavior makes sense. She’s surviving! Killing Ramsay would get her killed. Refusing him will get her killed, or worse. And pulling a Margaery on him would be far too rapid a change in her character.
She’s a prisoner of the Boltons, and is biding her time. When she finally takes her revenge, it’s going to an absolutely sublime moment. Not least because of the slow buildup.
Chad Brick,
I assume you know Littlefinger is playing Cersei like a fiddle, right? lol He just got permission to authorize the Vale’s invasion of the North and made her think it was her idea. Now he can use the armies of the Vale to tip the scales in the North whichever way he prefers and he won’t even be viewed as a traitor to the realm until he’s already succeeded in whatever he’s plotting (my guess is defeating the Boltons and then forcing Stannis into an alliance).
Can you appreciate that maybe Littlefinger (and by extension D&D) wasn’t as dumb as you’ve been saying he was?
Demonmonkey,
I haven’t seen the episode yet, so I will reserve judgement. However, I totally agree with you in terms of being disappointed by some of the posts in this thread. To have people attacking other viewers for their opinions is a bit rude. Especially with all the straw ‘SJW’ and straw-feminist barbs. I get enough of that BS elsewhere, thanks.
I’m cool with hotly debating interpretations of the show/text etc and backing them up with examples, but the attacks and generalisations as to personal character are a bit on the nose. Ymmv.
Agree w all of this!
I think this was a great episode although I definitely could not enjoy watching it for obvious reasons at the end. Poor Sansa!
I very much liked how Cersei ordered LF to KL to get Olivar speak against Loras and also implicate Margaery, which I did not expect. Also, that he plays his game even further by explicitly telling Cersei where to find Sansa in exchange for yet some more influence.
The way Cersei is enjoying her position in the interaction with Oleanna was great.
The hall of the faces was great and I think we will see
in the next episodes.
The Tyrion – Jorah interaction was very nice and while we know, that they somehow need to get further towards Mereen it is not clear why a slaver would go there if only freed men are about to fight in the pits.
Dorne was good, but I am not quite sure where this storyline is going.
Back to Sansa, this scene was as terrible to watch as I assume it was supposed to be and exactly what we all feared for this episode. Not showing any details was the right choice in my opinion as watching Alfie’s great acting made it maybe even more painful than anything more explicit.
However, I do also share the concerns of many that little agency of Sansa was seen and I really hope that she will not just be the victim again and get rescued by Brienne (Chekov’s latern already hung on the wall) or anybody else but really act herself. In that respect it disappointed me that with Miranda she showed in the end the same arrogance towards lower class people, which made her less likeable in the earlier books and seasons. I kind of assume her to become more emphatic towards other/lower rank people as part of her character development but maybe her teachers were not too great examples in empathy.
Anyway, great episode. Very nervous how things play out in the next episodes as well as their full arcs.
And Elio thought the Sansa book chapter was controversal?
You just went Linda, never go full Linda.
This fandom is nuts! Its reaching a level of insanity comparable to Extreme muslims.
And this comment section is cancer! Good riddance, i wont be back.
ArgonathofBraavos,
He He
Soap Opera, High Quality.
Sean C.,
But she will. This is her turning point.
And why are you so obsessed with Sansa? It gets ridiculous.
Clob,
Ohh Shit, you’re right. They wouldn’t show that for no reason but I really really hope Bron doesn’t die, he’s one of my favourite characters and of the few good entertaining guys left. Please don’t kill him
Some things came to mind during this episode.
Back in season 1, Varys described Littlefinger thusly, “Littlefinger would see the realm burn if he could be king of the ashes.” I have never forgotten that and always view Littlefinger in that context.
The old saying, “It is always darkest before the dawn.” D&D have consistently talked about Season 5 as being the “turn” for the series. Even after all that Sansa has endured, her wedding night in Winterfell is her darkest personal experience. She can allow herself to fall into utter despair and accept being the perpetual victim, or she can channel all of that rage, hurt, and revenge to propel her to reestablish her family’s ancestral power in the North.
I hadn’t read the books in a couple of years so I picked up AFFC and ADWD last night. There are descriptions of very violent rapes being wrought on little girls, followed by various mutilations inflicted on them afterwards (cutting off noses, breasts, etc.) Women are forced to copulate with dogs and Theon is an active participant in Jeyne’s rape. Some characters cannot help but imagine and describe all the varieties of “cunt” in the world: those belonging to septas, or even Margaery’s (a 16 year old girl whose “pink cunt” Cersei delights in picturing being prodded by an investigative septa.) If people think the show is crossing a line…
I think I saw the Miranda scene differently from everyone else. Though Sansa nailed Miranda’s emotional attachment to Ramsey, she seemed to think that meant that Miranda was lying about the human hunting hobby. And she told Theon that he deserved Ramsey’s wrath. If she had said that and had any inkling what Ramsey had actually done to Reek, I don’t think I could forgive her for being such an insensitive bitch. But I really think that Sansa just naively didn’t know. And she still may not really know, but I bet she’ll listen more carefully about Ramsey’s proclivities from now on.
Cersei and Roose are only dancing to LF’s tune because D&D needed them to as a plot device, however much nonsense this requires.
The Real Roose would have seized Sansa and LF at Moat Cailin and sent Cersei a pretty little Stark and a Baelish-skin lampshade, while humbling asking to borrow a few thousand troops for a while. The Real LF would have realized that the Real Roose would have done this, and thus never proposed the marriage in the first place. The Real Roose would also realize that not only was LF a risk of betrayal, but any number of his rebellious bannermen. He wasn’t just throwing his alliance with the crown in the trash with this plan, he was actively turning them against him. It made no sense for Roose to accept this deal and no sense for LF to offer it. But that is water under the bridge. We’ve endured this nonsense in order to get the rape switched from a minor character to a major one. Do you think it was worth it?
My point, however, is that I am very confident we have now glimpsed LF’s TWOW content.
I’ll admit that a preview of Sansa polishing a dagger and looking vengeful would have been ridiculous, but the preview we do have doesn’t seem promising.
I smiled during this scene because I’d half-expected LF to turn on Sansa. He did leave her alone with the Boltons, after all, with that bit about them not being so bad being total and utter bullshit. And he did frame her for the murder of a king (the necklace he made for her), which is about the most grievous crime a person could commit in this era. Does LF like Sansa? Yes. LF likes Sansa the way one likes a toy. He loves to play with her, but he’d put her aside in a heartbeat to get something he really wants.
What does LF really want? “Everything.” And what is everything? I believe it is the iron throne or at least the power behind that throne.
In the 2004 Vanity Fair movie, this was said about the protagonist:
Lord Baelish isn’t a mere political climber, he’s a political mountaineer. He’s gone from being some almost-homeless hedgeknight to the king’s council to Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord of Harrenhal to Lord Protector of the Vale and now his aim is for Warden of the North. He’s made no secret of how powerful an alliance between the Vale and the North can be, and if he’s Warden and Lord Protector of both…
The only question I’m unsure of is if he wants to rule on his own or if he plans to be the puppet master. I think he wants the throne for himself. He’s got that short-man and little-finger syndrome where he needs to prove to the world how awesome he is; how big he is; how important he is. I don’t think he’d be happy behind the curtain.
Chad Brick,
If Roose had done as you said, he’d effectively be declaring war against the Vale and the rest of the north. As it is, he’s in a precarious enough situation with Stannis bearing down on him.
LOL
I’m not defending Sansa being raped. I think it’s horrible. I love this show and it made me cringe, even more than Talisa’s stabbing while pregnant during the Red Wedding.
I’m specifically charging some of the people who are outraged about this who freely admit to have read the books, who have taken the production to task when – in a startling reversal of what has been complained about by some book readers this year – the production follows the story in the novels.
The story in the novels. A shift of characters, to be sure, but the basic storyline remains the same: Ramsay marries and then rapes and hurts his bride.
Yes, the Sansa scenes on television appear more ‘real’ because visually we are often times more invested in a television program. Yet the books have been cherished by so many for, what, 15 years? 20 years? And they’re full of rape and violence against young women and girls.
I’m just pointing out the inherent hypocrisy here. Yeah that scene made me cringe. I’m still going to watch, and I’m optimistic that Sansa will have her revenge.
Yeah I was expecting her to suddenly come out with “Reek can watch…and Myranda can too”, this is similar to how she played Harry the Heir at the Vale dinner and it would have shown how she was developing into a player of sorts and learning to manipulate uncomfortable situations to her advantage
Instead this is basically putting her character arc back to Ned getting his head chopped off
Presumably so they can set up a cartoonish Stannis vs Ramsay where we are all meant to cheer for Stannis coming to save Sansa, which wasn’t necassary because the Stannis/Shireen and Roose/Ramsay scenes already achieved that,
They had set things up nicely with the bath scene, there are other ways to show she still has much to learn if that was the point
If Northerners think Sansa Stark is being mistreated that = people lining up to revolt in order to happily make her a widow – and not just in terms of Tyrion…
I kept expecting Baelish to say “I will take Vale troops north” and hooray we can have Manderley vs the Freys but no….
On the one hand like Sept gate I will always apply a wait and see but my suspicion is in the books she will become Elizabethan and not actually marry or have sex as a powerful symbol,
On the plus side I actually thought the trial where Margaery got locked up was nice, even if the rest wasn’t, Olenna was able to match wits with Tywin she wouldn’t be flustered by Cersei, then again I guess they are just setting up Cersei’s smugness to make her WoS a hard fall
Sigh. I’ll try again: a character’s journey isn’t linear. Sansa is gaining more control over her actions over time, but that’s a process that involves moving forward and back. Whether it was right to depict rape again as a plot tool that the showrunners seem to have gone back to the well on many times is a valid point, particularly their shoddy use of it in the past (Jaime/Cersei in the Sept and Craster’s Keep), but the idea that this changes Sansa again is another story.
One element that most reviewers have missed is the extraordinary visual language of this episode – particularly the juxtaposition of the beauty of the wedding scene, and the horror of the aftermath. The wedding, in the snow-covered godswood at night, lit by a number of small lanterns, was absolutely beautiful. Just as most such royal weddings have been in history. The veneer of these times was romantic, elegant and heart-stirring. But below the surface lies a darkness. Especially for women. Below the surface of this wonderful ceremony was the rape of a child, whose parents and sibling had been murdered by the family she had just been married into. The dreams of young women, as exemplified by the snow-castle of Winterfell built by Sansa last season, are only realized in slight, artificial ways. Those dreams cannot paper over the horrible state of their slavery in a brutal, patriarchal society.
The only way out of this hell, in such a world, is for a woman to bide her time. Build alliances. And strike when the time is right.
Sansa’s day is coming
Ginevra,
It’s not naivety for a character in the show to not know something that is only shown to the audience. Petyr Baelish also doesn’t know anything about Ramsay’s proclivities. They just haven’t been privy to that information. That’s not naivety. It’s simply a lack of knowledge. Westeros doesn’t have instagram and twitter. People simply don’t know a lot of what’s going on in the world.
Thanks, ArgonathofBraavos. The reason I used “naively” is because Sansa’s comment about not caring what Ramsay did to Theon was almost immediately after Myranda had described to Sansa how Ramsay had hunted his other ex-girlfriend down with his dogs and let the dogs gnaw on her, implying that she was not the only human hunting expedition that Ramsay had put together. Though Sansa did rightly call Myranda out on her jealousy, Sansa did not seem to believe the human hunting tales. If she had believed Ramsay capable of hunting girls down with dogs and letting the dogs eat the girls, she might have suspected that Theon was grossly abused by Ramsay because a.) Ramsay had appropriately renamed Theon as Reek, b.) Ramsay had already verbally abused Theon in front of Sansa when he made him apologize for killing her brothers, and c.) why else would Theon, heir to House Greyjoy and previously an arrogant prick, reside in the kennel, smell disgusting, and have a hard time even maintaining eye contact and stringing together sentences without stuttering? Perhaps “naive” isn’t the right word, but a wiser and more observant person might have suspected abuse.
It seems as if the show runners we’re more intrested in themselves than the actual story – watch game of thrones a day in the life Jeb this episode it shows