Throughout our Memory Lane series, guest writers will be contributing their remembrances of the seasons past. Today’s author is a familiar name in our Twitter recaps and a longtime friend to the site. Please welcome Paige aka GameOverRos! -Sue the Fury
Mazel tov! It’s a… boy? Man? Smoke monster?
Yes, on today’s walk down Game of Thrones memory lane, it’s the turn of “Garden of Bones.” Written by Vanessa Taylor and directed by David Petrarca, the episode premiered on the 22nd of April, 2012. In an episode filled with quotable lines, and notable firsts, there was just one scene that everyone was talking about.
“Garden of Bones” opened with the snarl of a direwolf, and it ended with the screaming of the viewers. Yes, it was the birth of Melisandre and Stannis’s son. Shadow baby. Smoke assassin. From the moment Davos was asked to smuggle Melisandre, we knew something was going to happen. Curiosity turned into unease with the reveal of Mel’s pregnant belly.
Then the birth.
We were all Davos Seaworth.
Melisandre moaned. The…child clawed itself free. The screaming started. And Twitter exploded. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you break the internet. The reaction was so huge that Carice van Houten responded.
Thanks for all your lovely comments on ‘the baby’. #gameofthrones
— Carice van Houten (@caricevhouten) April 25, 2012
This may be one of my favourite moments from Season 2. The combination of being Unsullied at that point, the huge reaction from social media, and being a part of that reaction as I live-tweeted for the first time, means that this episode remains close to my heart.
Firsts:
Roose Bolton (Michael McElhatton) is on the loose, and he’s already giving us a taste of what we’ll become familiar with in the coming seasons.
The Mountain #2 (played by Ian Whyte) makes his first appearance in this episode.
Harrenhal appears for the first time, and it looks like something out of a Gothic nightmare.
The Thirteen are introduced, with Xaro Xhoan “Duck Sauce” Daxos and Pyat Pree among them.
The Tickler debuts, torturing prisoners at Harrenhal.
Talisa Maegyr (Oona Chaplin) makes her first appearance, removing feet and stealing hearts.
Notable Quotes:
“Joffrey. Cersei. Ilyn Payne. The Hound. Polliver. The Mountain.” -Arya Stark
“Fewer.” – Stannis Baratheon. King of Grammar, in our hearts forever.
“A naked man has few secrets; a flayed man, none.” – Roose Bolton
“Lady Stark, you may survive us yet.” Tyrion Lannister, predicting the future.
“Born amidst salt and smoke? Is he a ham?” -Renly Baratheon
The Bronn Quote. [To quote Sue, HE SAYS THE THING!]
Big Moments:
PeachGate! “Renly’s Apple” doesn’t have quite the same ring to it.
Not-So-Big-Moment:
But in the end, all anyone could talk about was the baby:
Baby is the wrong word. Shadow creature. Smoke assassin. Whatever it is, it’s coming for Renly.
Tomorrow: In “The Ghost of Harrenhal,” assassins make their move.
Hodor!!!
HODOR!!!!
Edit: fail….
Hodor
Edit: NEVER MIND :'(
Freaked out when I first saw Roose Bolton.
Joffrey’s insane torment of Sansa in the middle of the courtroom is one of the most iconic moments of the books or TV series for me; not the torment itself, but the fact that he’s doing it *in public*, in the middle of the royal court. Which is basically Tyrion’s complaint: he really is a complete maniac who has no idea what he looks like to other people, and is batshit insane enough to do this to Sansa in front of the entire court.
I kind of wish they’d kept in the part about Joffrey saying he shot peasants with his crossbow from the castle gate because they were war refugees begging their king for bread (“what do they think I am, a beggar?”)
I wish they’d stated the name of the Battle of Oxcross on-screen; the only later retroactively call it that in Season 3.
The birth of the shadow baby is an excellent scene (though having heard Carice Van Houten tell the story of how the effect of her moving pregnant belly was achieved, I find it hard not to giggle at that part now; the perils of learning what goes on behind the scenes, I guess).
Your list of debuting characters omits the most important of all: the Spice King, or Fat Spice Merchant, as I tended to refer to him whilst these episodes were airing. He was far and away the most entertaining thing about the show’s version of Qarth.
In the realm of less glorious debuts, I don’t think Talisa, as a character, ever worked. My main problem is one that has nothing to do with adaptation, per se (some things will be different). My problem with her is that, within the world of the TV show, she is a huge anachronism, and she goes against how every other female regular is portrayed in terms of struggling against patriarchal norms, which seem to basically not exist in relation to Talisa. Oona Chaplin was fine, though, and had pretty decent chemistry with Richard Madden.
At the time these episodes aired I wasn’t following show production information online much, so I was surprised when Roose turned up for the first time. A great casting choice, not that that’s a new statement at this point.
This is the first episode where I think the cutting of Dontos’ involvement in Sansa’s story after episode 201 negatively impacted it. Without Sansa’s involvement with him, her rejection of Tyrion is played as a nicely dignified moment for her, but it loses the significance of her learning to think strategically and work toward a defined end.
The scene when Dany arrives at the gates of Qarth is so…..girl, you’re in no position to demand anything. Cry me a river. Also lmao @ the acting. The scenery is nice though.
The shadow baby was so crazy. I still wonder how it must have been like to film that scene.
I’m probably one of the few who doesn’t mind that the show replaced Jeyne with Talisa. They already had a lot of characters to keep track of. However, it did seem kind of random that she left Volantis to work as a nurse in Westeros. For a while I genuinely thought she was a Lannister spy lmao.
I love how the Battle of Oxcross is depicted. Obviously it was a cost-cutting move to save up for “Blackwater”, but it’s efficient and exciting. The irreverent Lannister sentries. The slow-building atmosphere of dread, which is briefly and falsely alleviated by a crude joke. Grey Wind leaping out of the darkness, and Rennick’s scream. Robb and his army, waiting in the rainy night. Cut to black with shouts of “The King in the North!”. Open on Rennick with his entrails torn out. Pan up to reveal a battlefield strewn with thousands of dead and dying Lannister soldiers. “Five Lannisters dead for every one of ours”. The entire story of the battle is told in a few succinct images and sounds. Perfect.
That scene introduces to Talisa Maegyr, the show’s equivalent to Jeyne Westerling (she was originally cast as “Jeyne”, before GRRM suggested that the character’s name and backstory be changed). I know opinions are split on Talisa. Some think she’s too modern (fair). Some don’t like that Robb marries her for love rather than to preserve her honor (also fair). Others just don’t like that she’s not in the books (blah).
However, I am firmly in the pro-Talisa camp. I think she’s an engaging presence who adds a lively spark to her scenes with Robb. And … if you’ll permit me to be superficial for a moment … I think that Oona Chaplin is one of the most beautiful women who has ever appeared on the show. She’s stunning.
We also meet Roose Bolton here. He’s perfect from the jump. Michael McElhatton is so goddamn good. I like the decision to keep him by Robb’s side during Season 2. He’s presented as a harsh but valuable advisor who Robb respects and keeps council with, even if he doesn’t quite like him. That allows the show to build up to Bolton’s betrayal gradually, rather than glaringly advertising from the beginning (as the books do) that the dude is bad news.
The character doesn’t physically resemble his book counterpart (pour one out for the leeches), but that’s for the best, IMO. The Bolt-On theory will never sully the show with its presence! (I’m just kidding, Bolt-On theory. I love you. Mocking you has brought me such joy over the years, but I assure you it’s all in good fun). 😉
Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,
Talisa is hated only among the hardcore book fandom. Mostly because she proved another theory wrong.
She’s a fine character and she and Richard have a nice chemistry togheter.
Mihnea,
I thought that would be the case. Is the theory you’re referring to the one with the hips/pregnancy?
They look good together, I agree.
Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,
Yup that’s the one.
Let’s get to Roose’s replacement in Harrenhal – Tywin. No divergence between the show and the books is universally popular. However, putting Tywin and Arya together is widely acclaimed as one of the very best changes that the show has made from the novels. Charles Dance and Maisie Williams have superb chemistry from their first scene together, and I unequivocally support any and all changes that made such interactions possible.
Yes, it means that we don’t get Weasel soup. I’ll take that hit. Charles Dance cures a lot of ills.
Less good – the new Mountain. We love you, Ian Whyte, but that’s the only recasting that irks me. It has nothing to do with his performance – he’s just too damn skinny. I know that there were circumstances that prevented Conan Stevens’ return, but I think I’d have preferred that they kept the character offscreen in Season 2. With Tywin in command at Harrenhal, he’s unnecessary.
Moving on to Arya’s sister. There are some smart commenters here (Sean C, I’m looking at you) who have problems with how Sansa is handled in Seasons 2 and 3. I don’t agree with all of those criticisms, but I hope we can at least all acknowledge that Sophie Turner is great, particularly in the scene when Tyrion saves her from Joffrey’s abuse. I love the admiring look that Tyrion shoots after her as she exits the throne room. “Lady Stark. You may survive us yet.” That she did, and that she will.
Speaking of great performances, Jack Gleason is next-level. There are times when I miss what Joffrey brought to the show. The character can be so fun to hate when he’s petulant and inept. Then I reach the scene where Joffrey abuses Ros and Daisy, and I remember “Oh yeah. Joffrey is fucking evil. He’s rotten to his core.” That was the intention, I’m sure.
I’ll talk about Qarth more later, but I will say that I do really enjoy Nicholas Blane’s performance as the Spice King. The character is suuuuuuuuuuuuch an unctuous prick, but the fact that he so obviously and theatrically revels in being a heel tips the scales, making him fun to watch. It’s a delicate balance, and one that Blane handles well.
Mihnea,
Not true. I think Talisa was a poor character because she doesn’t make any sense within the Game of Thrones world. It’s not an adaptation nitpick. We’ve established in the show’s world a certain way of living- the fact that this is a country at war, where even a woman as strong as Brienne can be captured and hurt. Where she and Arya have to dress like men basically and their independence is seen as very strange and even freakish. So we get this person who supposedly came all the way from Volantis by herself, probably not with any support?? And how is she supporting herself financially, how is she surviving? It just made no sense.
I’ve always thought that was an editing mistake. Like when an author gets a character’s eye color wrong by accident.
Sue the Fury,
That was why I thought she was a Lannister spy. There were things about her background that didn’t add up.
Sue the Fury,
I did say ”mostly”.
Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,
If I remember right Martin confirmed that it really was a mistake. That didn’t stop the theory tough.
Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,
It was. GRRM said as much.
That theory was an interesting read, but even before it was debunked, I never really understood what purpose it would have served. One of the chief flaws of a lot of theory-making is overcomplicating things for little defined benefit.
Finally, I must say that “Garden of Bones” is quietly a great episode for Michelle Fairley. She is fantastic in the scene when Littlefinger brings her Tyrion’s proposal and Ned’s remains. Later, Catelyn does her best to keep Stannis and Renly from futile bloodshed. If only.
Let’s take a silly detour: Renly’s peach. I don’t give a damn about the peach. I believe that its absence has been humorously addressed on the DVD commentary (the joke being that Gethin Anthony loathes peaches). Yet every time I see Renly pick up an apple, I remember what an uproar the missing peach caused. As someone persistently defends the show against nitpicking from book readers over minor changes and omissions like this one, I’ll say this: that apple could have easily been a peach. It would have saved us all a headache.
To compensate, Renly does get to deliver one of the show’s greatest quips: “Born amidst salt and smoke. Is he a ham?” It never fails to make me laugh. Part of me facetiously wonders if Stannis and Melisandre decided to kill him just for that line. If so … worth it!
Hey, I wrote a thousand words on this episode and I didn’t mention the shadow baby. Hello, shadow baby! What an adorable little murder spirit you are! 🙂
Could it not be possible that Talisa and her family had a relationship with one of the Northern houses, through a relative? Why is something like that so hard to believe?
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Because nothing whatsoever suggests such a connection? She doesn’t even know where Winterfell is on a map.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
It’s not super hard to believe, it just isn’t addressed at all. Plus, from what we know from Essos, they don’t really give a damn about Westeros, so I don’t think the average Essos noble has much contact with the average noble Westeros house, and Talisa isn’t said to be an exception.
I do like Oona and the backstory regarding the slave and her brother though.
As for me, I thought she was there to picture the “witch” type. Sure, in medieval societies women were not really going around freely, but for some “healers” that were respected and somehow feared (and sometimes ended up on a stake). A Jacqueline Felicie type of woman.
And this being a fantasy show, I was kind of expecting that she would turn out to be a real witch.
Well, that was not the case. Or rather the show got pretty realistic in that respect.
Other than that, I admit finding the couple Robb-Talisa, well, boring.
Yeah but nothing denies the connection either. If you went to some foreign country, would you be able to pick out every major city on a map? Keep in mind they don’t have Google in Westeros.
There are millions of people in Essos, to say “they don’t really give a damn about Westeros” is such a blanket statement. I’m sure there are some in Essos who have connections to Westeros and vice versa.
Yeah I guess they could’ve added a line like “I’m from Volantis but family member x has relations with Lord x from a northern house x”. But imo that is just unnecessary exposition in a show where they have to be efficient with how much info they give the viewer.
Catelyn and Littlefinger’s scene is one of my favourites in the whole show and it’s not even in the books! Michelle’s acting is perfection, she has to show so many emotions in just the one scene.
That entire throne room sequence with Joffrey’s humiliation of Sansa, Tyrion putting a stop to it and the way Sansa leaves is one of my all time favorites. She just might survive everyone.
I also liked how Talisa asked Robb point blank if he had a plan with this rebellion, and Robb’s expression pretty much said “no”. (Princess Leia said it best – “This is some rescue – you came in here, you didn’t have a plan for getting out?”) 🙂
Liam teases “quite a few Season 6 deaths”
https://twitter.com/TVLine/status/710902052310884352
This might be the best episode of Season 2.
– McElhatton is one of the best actors in the show. I’m glad they didn’t go the “leech fetish” book route. Had they represented Roose the same way, viewers would have gone “Robb, what the hell are you doing trusting this guy? Don’t order him to recapture Winterfell, you idiot!” Instead, they emphasized Roose’s aura. Bolton is above all unsettling, yet you can’t say exactly why. Michael captures that perfectly.
– I don’t exactly “hate” Talisa. I don’t find her anymore anachronistic than a 17-year-old girl raised in Essos trying to erradicate slavery in the show’s equivalent of Ancient Persia.
I do have trouble with the way Robb’s arch was adapted. Making him break a betrothal because of a teenage crush made him look astoundingly moronic. It bothered me a little when I was an Unsullied, but when I knew that the book had a better explanation I was furious.
I think the best way would have been to merge Jeyne’s background with Talisa’s personality. They could have even kept Oona Chaplin for the role (my crush on Oona might have something to do with this 🙂 ).
Make her the daughter of lord Westerling, have her appear on Oxcross healing the Lannister soldiers, keep they conversation from the show, etc. But make Robb and Catelyn know of Bran and Rickon’s “deaths”, giving them catalysts for their actions. And then go as usual (Robb sleeps with Jeyne, marries her out of honor and breaks the alliance with the Freys). This are small changes that would make for a better storyline, IMO.
– Regarding Sansa, I agree with Sean C.
1 – I don’t mind that Oxcross was “off-screen”, I mean it was off-screen in the books.
2 – Oh, GRRM addressed a lot about Jeyne-to-Talisa in the podcast he made at ChiCon 7. I’ve got some choice quotes stuck in the GOT Wiki in parts. ***It wasn’t that GRRM “wanted to change her name and backstory”. The TV writers changed her backstory so drastically that he urged them to at least rename her, to acknowledge that she was nothing like the book character he wrote.
The exact exchange was:
GRRM: [Sometimes, as with Shae, it’s as if the book and TV versions of a person are two separate characters]…”Literally, in the case of Jane Westerling/Talisa, it is a completely different character. So that’s not even, you know, ‘two different versions of the same character’, it’s a DIFFERENT character, and a different storyline there…but also that’s not a…well, I don’t know I shouldn’t say more about that.”
Question: “So you can’t tell me whether she is Jeyne Westerling? I’m still confused about that.”
GRRM: “Well she’s the character, she…she’s not Jeyne Westerling.”
Question: “She’s still in that ‘role’? My guess is that the producers decided that it wasn’t satisfying to have Robb stake so much on a relationship that was entirely ‘off stage’ in the books. That they wanted to put that on-screen.”
GRRM: “Well there are a number of decisions there. I mean yes. The FIRST decision was, we want to SEE Robb: we have a great young actor playing him in Richard Madden, he’s very popular. You know, in A Clash of Kings, Robb is almost entirely ‘off-stage’: there’s some scenes in the beginning of the book, and then he goes galloping off, and every so often a raven comes in and tells us what Robb is up to. And then, of course, in A Storm of Swords, Robb shows up and says ‘Hi ma, I’m married.’ So they wanted to show that. And of course, in the books, we learn what is the history, what happened to him, but we learn about it after the fact, and third-hand, and through letters, and ravens, and so forth. They wanted to actually show that decision. So, I think that was a good choice–”
GRRM: “–BUT then there was a SECOND decision, which is WHAT they showed. I mean they could have showed the events as they happened in the book. But, for whatever reason, they came up with a different thread, and changed the character of Jeyne Westerling significantly. It was actually my suggestion that they change her name, because once they gave her the backstory where she was not the daughter of a Lannister bannerman, but actually was this sort of healer, nurse, battlefield nurse/healer from Volantis, I said, “well, ‘Jeyne’ is not a Volantene name, so if you’re gonna, you know, if we’re gonna have a different character, we should have a different name for her as well. Otherwise, people are gonna get really confused here.”
http://talkingtvwithryanandryan.libsyn.com/talking-tv-with-ryan-and-ryan-episode-12-talking-power-magic-and-storytelling-with-george-r-r-martin
The reason why Robb broke his betrothal in the books never made much sense to me. The situation was so convoluted and unbelievable.
Breaking his vows for love was something I could relate to. I did so many stupid things for love, and I know that anyone who was desperately in love can understand what Robb was doing. You can understand the irrationality of what he has done. At least, I can.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t have jazzed up the Jeyne storyline from how it was exactly in the novels; but what I’m saying is that what they did change it to wasn’t very well written.
Hey Ros,
You did a great job. I loved all the meme’s and graphics you used with your recap. I told you over on Twitter, but the acknowledgment is worthy to be posted here as well!! Well done. (LadyFionavar) over on Twitter. I am glad to know you will be doing another one soon. 🙂
Jared,
By far yours is a much better and enjoyable Memory Lane than the official one that doesn’t amount to a paragraph. Suggestion: Could Sue hire you to write the rest of them?
Another excellent episode with great scenes and performances and a superb Spice Merchant. I would have had a problem to choose between him and Yoren as best supporting actors in 3 eps
I thought Talisa was a great character. I don’t think (or, for that matter, care) that she’s “unbelievable”. There are possible explanations for it (one of which LatrineDiggerBrian mentioned), so I’m fine with it. It’s not completely unfathomable, so it’s not the kind of thing that needs to be explained in my opinion.
dothrakian raven,
I’m very happy with this Memory Lane and don’t see the need to be rude to writers.
The Memory Lane schedule is already set. Jared will be writing the Memory Lane about “A Man Without Honor,” as it happens.
dothrakian raven,
I really enjoyed Paige’s post. Passion is the key to these things, and her love for “Garden of Bones” came across very clearly to me!
Sue was kind enough to invite me to write one of the Memory Lane posts. As she says above, I’ll be writing about “A Man Without Honor”, which is one my favorite episodes from Season 2 (probably second, after “Blackwater”). That one should go up on Monday – I just need to edit it down a bit. My struggles with going far too long when writing about Game of Thrones should come as no surprise to anyone who has read any of my comments over the years.
Sue the Fury,
I am not rude at all. To criticise someone’s performance or delivery of something does not equal to rudeness. I don’t think that this text can amount to memory lane of an episode so rich in interactions, good performances, sceneries, plot developments and “scandals”. A memory lane by its name is something, I want to believe that this is the point of doing it, that is written to remind us of the highlights of en episode. I do not see the equivalent of this in this text. What a blessing that one can rely on good commentators! Nobody is obliged to be polite for those who can not perform whatever their assignment is.
Jared,
Well it didn’t come across to me:-( These things happen. I didn’t know that you will write one and I am looking forward to it and keep going with your interesting and well thought comments.
dothrakian raven,
Whilst in some ways I agree with you that the written part of this particular Memory Lane was quite short, there are some excellent memes as well. Also whilst I prefer reading someone’s opinion rather than looking at images, I realise that some people probably prefer the opposite. As there are fifty of these posts it is nice to have a bit if variety, and something for everyone.
I don’t think your initial post was particularly bad really, but maybe you could have phrased things differently. However, I do think you’re being incredibly harsh with your reply here. Every writer/guest writer here is after all a volunteer. They do this for fun, so cut them some slack.
If you don’t like a writer don’t read their articles, or just read the comments, which are often very insightful and interesting themselves.
dothrakian raven,
All Game of Thrones Memory Lane is is one fan’s personal experience of the episode. That’s it. For some, that includes recapping more details than others. For some episodes, a person might focus entirely on the significance of one or two scenes. That’s more or less what I did with “You Win or You Die.” Not every piece is the same and I would be bored if they were.
And since I conceived of this project, I’m pretty sure I know what it is.
And regardless, being polite to people here is required for anyone if you want to be a part of this community. And that includes not being a jerk to the writers.
Sue the Fury,
It is not my intention to be a jerk. I expressed an opinion based on what I thought that a memory lane should look like, basically a way to connect us with what happened in a specific episode. To remind us above all, to instigate us to watch it again and discuss it and by discussing it to clarify things that didn’t make sense in the process. And frankly this episode has a lot of scenes and backstage reactions worth of being remembered. In any case I am also seeing it from the perspective of those who have not the luxury to watch the episodes again or do not have a clear picture of past seasons, or have missed something that came to the fore later in S3 or S5 for example etc. I didn’t have a problem – more or less – with 13 memory lanes so far. I am not throwing stones or insults I just happened to be dissatisfied with this text. But it seems that makes me a jerk.
dothrakian raven,
Yes, and you’re still doing it, so knock it off.
Ah, my starring role.
That interaction between spice king and dany outside the gate of qarth. ..The greatest city there was and there will be ……..was
…..hsjsjejejejejejejeejejejejjeejejeje I mean wow…..it made me feel awkward, ..and uneasy. ……
was it meant to be that way? ? or was it simply bad acting ??
ooo I didn’t wanted renly to die. ..I wanted renly and rob to team up…sack kingslanding
capture joffery …tie him to back of the sansa horse naked and drag him from kingslanding to winterfell. ………
and burn him at winterfell. …don’t want him as the white walker. ….
I love that the writers included this exposition when the characters first glimpse Harrenhal. “What kind of fire melts stone?” Arya: “Dragon fire.” My theory: Harrenhal will be crucial as a refuge and a source of weapons in the fight against the White Walkers because the melted towers are dragon-made dragonglass!
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the grim torturing (using a rat in bucket and heated so it gnaws through the victims chest) going on in Harrenhal when Arya with her friends Hot Pie and Gendry arrive there? Really fortunate for them that Tywin rolled up just in time to prevent Gendry being eaten alive!
I believe that sequence (like Yoren’s bedtime chat with Arya) wasn’t in the book either or Arya becoming Tywin’s cupbearer?
Nice! Gotta say though that A Man Without Honor is maybe my most disliked episode of the whole show! Interesting to see that you love it so much. Looking forward to your review!
I’d like to address the two related “controversies” of Season 2: the spunkiness — to use a kind word — of Talisa Maegyr and the change in circumstances and underlying motives of how Robb breaks his vows to Walder Frey. Back in 2012 this was quite a contentious topic, and together with Qorin Halfhand and Where are my dragons? probably contributed the most to the increased dissatisfaction certain fans felt regarding the direction of the show.
There is a widespread belief that Talisa is an anachronistic character: way too modern for GoT and way too “liberal” when it comes to spouting off to lords around her. While there’s some merit to these complaints, I’d like to remind fellow posters that not all people are alike. It is not helpful to assume that every single woman in Westeros is a subservient little thing that knows her place. For one, Talisa is a foreigner and may not be into all the intricacies of Westerosi social norms. Secondly, and maybe even more importantly, she is highborn (going by book info on her family name, from one of the most powerful ruling families of Volantis), and from a slaver society at that. For the majority of her life, she could talk however the hell she wanted to people around her. Maybe these practices of hers aren’t suited to her current condition and maybe it would have bit her in the posterior one of these days, but the gal was lucky to find herself in the company of a good lad like Robb Stark. I also very much doubt she was traveling alone tempting her fate with soldiers. It is just as likely that Talisa was part of a larger troop of healers, doctors, and battlefield nurses that operated across the war-torn region. Her position, just as in the real world, may have easily gained her a protected status.
I would also like to point out some other precedents where lowborn people behave in a seemingly inappropriate manner. For example, Shae is definitely not what one could call deferential in her manner with the highborn. Or what about Tyrion’s trusty sellsword who was introduced to the most powerful man in Westeros, Tywin Lannister, as Bronn, son of You wouldn’t know him, which can only be described as supremely rude.
Taking all this into account, I’m having trouble understanding why Talisa, a highborn lady, should be held to a different standard and considered an unlikely or “wrong” character for this particular setting. Strange or even rude, sure, but not wrong.
On to Robb…
mau,
So can I. “The things I do for love” are not always the most honourable or desirable.
I prefered Thalisa, because the character and her story were interesting. Jeyne was imo just a plot device, not a real character.
To marry for love or for honor, that is the question, wouldn’t you say? One on the minds of many a book walker regarding Robb’s marriage to Talisa.
In the books, Robb has sex with Jeyne Westerling, a daughter of a Lannister bannerman, in a moment of weakness — having received the news of his brothers’ “deaths” — and then feels honor-bound to marry her (because we can’t have unmarried women with their honor besmirched, obviously!) In the show, Robb marries Talisa not for honor — what would my father have done? — but for “simple” love. There are two issues there.
First, there was a significant contingent of fans arguing that a high lord, much less a king, would never marry for love as their very position depends on an intricate game of dynastic matches. Of course, this one is easy to debunk because there are multiple book precedents that I can easily bring up. Maybe the most famous ones concern Aegon V and his children, Duncan the Prince of Dragonflies and Jahaerys. All three married for love, much to the dismay of the court, which caused significant damage to the realm and the Targaryen family. A more pertinent example may be Tywin Lannister (of all people) who apparently also married his cousin Joanna for love. (Then again, the guy always has been the ultimate hypocrite.)
The other issue isn’t factual, but a matter of opinion. Is it more thematically appropriate and narratively satisfying to have Robb marry for love or for honor? As for myself, I have no horse in this particular race, but I do think that both approaches are equally valid. Book!Robb tries to live up to the image of his honorable father and does what he feels is right. Even though his breach of the marriage pact with the Freys will turn out to be his undoing, Robb felt that he was obliged to preserve the honor of the girl he bedded. Essentially, in this storyline Martin was once more examining his favorite topic of competing obligations and duties (or as Wimsey would say: Damned if you do, damned if you don’t).
Show!Robb, on the other hand, moves in a different direction. He acted with honor and duty all though the war and what did it accomplish? His father lost his head, his sisters are prisoners of the hated Lannisters, his brother-by-oath betrayed him and took his castle and now his own mother disobeyed him and released the Kingslayer for what Robb perceived as selfish reasons: to get the girls back. How many sons and daughters died already in this war for Cat to let him go so cheaply and irresponsibly? And Robb… gave in to his own desires. The one thing I can have in this blasted war. The one chance for happiness in all this bleakness.
A different dilemma, but just as powerful, in my opinion. Robb and Talisa? Yes, please.
dothrakian raven,
This was my post. I wanted to capture the excitement that I felt when I was live tweeting for the first time. It was an experience. My assignment was to walk down memory lane. I did. These were my memories of it.
Frankly, there is no need for the rudeness. I’m all for constructive criticism, but there is also basic manners. I’ll apologise that you didn’t like it. But I wanted to do something a little different.
Lonely Cat,
Wow! That’s a fine idea, ser/ m’lady!
Mr Fixit,
Great. I agree.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Thank you, Shy Lady! I also believe that the “oily black stone” and “fused black stone” described in many locations in Planetos (see The World of Ice and Fire) will provide (at least temporary) protection against the WW invasion. Perhaps the Valyrian road was really intended as a barrier against an invasion!
Oh, I am a woman. I’m no lady!
Tywin of the Hill,
I did think Talisa was an unrealistic character. The show has made again and again the point that this show is dangerous to women alone. Even a warrier like Brienne or someone in the middle of a royal party like Sansa can be threatened. But Talisa can go to another continent and act as a healer in a military camp no problem? And probably carrying a whole lot of money, since I doubt as a woman she could find a paying job. I liked the suggestion above, Talisa’s personality with Jeyne’s story.
Obviously is more unrealistic that Dany being against slavery, even if Mereen really is a representation of ancient Persia, since she comes herself from a place where slavery is outlawed.
That’s the problem with “medieval” inspired books or shows. The world medieval is supposed to refer to something that happened in parts of three continents during a thousand years. It means very little. So people will be inspired by something that happened in 4th century Hungary and 14th century Italy and say it’s all medieval, when they have very little in common. So the world anachronic doesn’t really make sense to talk about a fantasy world.
I also prefer the memory lane texts that are longer and cover more scenes of the episode. I didn’t even remember this was the one with the Joffrey and Sansa scene until I read the comments.
Mr Fixit,
I hope that my post will answer your question about why I find the episode so compelling (sneak preview: it’s a Lannister-heavy episode, and I love that gloriously messed-up family). But even if it doesn’t, that’s OK! No hard feelings.
Part of what’s been great about these Memory Lane posts is learning what all of the regulars (and newbies) here think about these older episodes that haven’t been discussed in a while. It’s always interesting to see two comments juxtaposed where one person thinks that a given episode is a season/series highlight, while another ranks it much lower. Generally, they both have good points – reasonable people can disagree. With a show as consistently great as Game of Thrones is, there are really no wrong answers when it comes to picking favorite and least favorite episodes.
I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on Robb and Talisa, by the way! Very smart analysis. 🙂
Jared,
Thanks!