As a new scene involving the Unsullied is filmed, construction continues in Moneyglass, where the Winterfell set has been revamped from the ground up, and outside Titanic Studios, which holds the mysterious new set we’ve been speculating so much about.
The Unsullied have been filming in Toome, near the Winterfell set, for the last few weeks, sources tell us. Though it wasn’t a battle, we know they are getting ready to combat the White Walkers, as every Unsullied wielded a new dragonglass-tipped spear. If you recall, they have Jon Snow to thank for that, as he convinced Daenerys to let him mine Dragonstone’s rich dragonglass deposits. But will this be enough of an edge?
Meanwhile, the two greatest season eight sets we know of remain under construction. Thanks to Watchers reader Cathair, we now can see the field facing the Winterfell set in Moneyglass is being covered extensively in white tarps, as a foundation for fake snow:
Oakleaf Photography has older Moneyglass photos, yet they do offer a closer look:
A hive of activity (Nov 9th) around the Higgins estate Moneyglass N.Ireland as HBO prepares the Winterfell set for season 8 filming. #GOT #GameofThrones #GameOfThronesFinale #Belfast #winteriscoming pic.twitter.com/GNRl2KpHRB
script async src="//pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js">— Oakleaf Photography (@jct_c) November 10, 2017
This development matches with our previous hypothesis: for the first time, Winterfell’s battlements and the outside of the castle’s walls will be part of the set instead of purely CGI, which points to a battle sequence taking place right outside the Stark stronghold. The deep winter dressing for the field only serves to corroborate this notion.
As for the other set, the layers of mystery keep being peeled off only to reveal more layers. Construction at the Titanic Studios parking lot advances, but it does so slowly, and now a row of trucks protects the set from view. Nevertheless, there are new photos:
Again, Oakleaf Photography also has some good pictures, though slightly older as well:
Pics from the new set being constructed by HBO for season 8 of the Game of Thrones. #GOT #GameofThrones #GameOfThronesFinale #Belfast #winteriscoming pic.twitter.com/UPHP0nDszI
— Oakleaf Photography (@jct_c) November 10, 2017
As you can see, the tower is halfway there, now with window frames, while the other buildings increasingly look like common city architecture — certainly not part of a castle, as we initially assumed. This appears to rule out the Red Keep, Harrenhal and the like. There is something else, too: the gate arch at the great defensive wall looks like it’s supposed to be in ruins, though there is no way to know yet whether it’s supposed to be an old ruin or recently destroyed. Still, considering all the clues we have, there is only one place this new set is likely to be, in my opinion: one of the seven main entrances to King’s Landing, probably for a battle sequence in which the city may be penetrated.
But that’s just my best guess. What is yours? What is this set, perhaps the largest in the show’s history, supposed to be? What will happen in it, and in Winterfell, that require these sets to be so extensive? And what are the Unsullied up to?
Hodor!
maybe the mystery “castle” is some town in the north that gets attacked by the whitewalkers first like last heart or something??
Toome is literally 3 minutes from Moneyglass.
I *thought* < high emphasis on *thought* that I saw a new set beside Winterfell at Moneyglass but couldn't confirm it until next week when I have a better camera.
Might be possible Unsullied are battling WW at this *supposedly new set* or indeed outside Winterfell itself?
They wouldn’t be building something this big for “some town,” and the architecture isn’t Northern at all. The buildings are too large, as are the windows. Whether it’s King’s Landing or not, it’s a southern location.
Really interesting about the unsullied. Especially if the’ve been filming for such a long time! Well hidden!
That stuff on the ground at Moneyglass doesn’t actually look like fake snow but some kind of white sheeting. As I understand it, fake snow doesn’t last very well so it’s probably deployed just before shooting, but the white sheeting could be in the background to mask the green fields, dunno. One thing is for sure: it’ll be winter and WF will see some major action!
Difficult to glean anything new from the Belfast/Titanic set. I suggested a couple of weeks ago that it could be a city wall + gate and a city street. As Jorah and Sam+Gilly have left Oldtown – the only other city depicted in the show – the logical conclusion is that this set is Kings Landing. It also makes sense storywise, it’s Cersei’s last stronghold. And the reports of controlled fire tests a couple of weeks ago suggest some sort of fire action… dragon or wildfire?
Oh my god so it seems the Unsullied will do battle with the White Walkers, surely there can only be one winner? I’d like to see both sides wiped out ideally and Grey Worm dying in the process.
I’m guessing now the big set is either Winterfell after the battle or Kings Landing. I keep changing my mind.
Methinks they could shoot the same set from two (or more) different angles and have it represent different locations, with some minor set-dressing tweaks. We shouldn’t assume that they are mutually exclusive just because one feature is more representative of one site in Westeros than another.
If, as I suspect, they’re going to do some sort of montage in one of the early S8 episodes showing multiple castles, holdfasts, towns and villages in the North being overrun by the advancing Army of the Dead, it would make financial sense to utilize many of the same actors in the same costumes and makeup and shoot them on the same day or in close succession. Zooming in repeatedly on the same conspicuously gnarly wight might be good visual shorthand conveying that the Army of the Dead is making progress and not getting any smaller. Gotta ramp up the sense of impending doom, ya know?
Jennifer,
The only town of any substace in the North is White Harbour. I think it has been mentioned in passing a couple of times but never shown. In the books the description matches some real life small northern European town, like Anstruther in Scotland or something. Last Hearth isn’t a town but a castle.
Southern location in Ruins could be for KL burning
Some news at last! Thank you, Luka.
I wonder whether that sequence involving the Unsullied involved the Dothraki as well? If not, I take it as proof that the Dothraki won’t meet Dany and the Unsullied on the King’s Road as planned.
It’s also interesting that they are filming something involving the Unsullied but not a battle sequence and that the filming continues for several weeks. It’s hard to imagine what kind of scene(s) can take so long (other than action sequence). I can imagine some events on the road to Winterfell in Ep 1 or some other events on the road south (?) by the end ofthe season, but anything of that type should include the main cast, right?
And finally, regarding that unfinished gate arch, I don’t think that it’s supposed to be in ruins. The edges are too even for a ruin. The upper section may be built later or simply finished with SGI. Anyway, it really looks like an urban street which makes it either KL+RK or Oldtown (but I don’t think it’s Oldtown).
The smooth edged arch ruins here look exactly like the smooth edged arch ruins of the Dragonpit set did before they were finished. It won’t be smooth forever. They’re just giving it a general shape.
talvikorppi,
I don’t think that the show! White Harbor, if it ever appears on the screen, will look anything better than the town (or rather a village) outside the walls of Winterfell. IMO, you were right when you identified this set as an urban street leading to or from the gate. It should be KL and the gate may be either the city gate or the gate of the Red Keep. I think I should rewatch Cersei’s Walk of Shame and Euron’s triumph and make a comparison. As far as I remember there was a similar arch in Euron’s triumph scene but it looked smaller.
Luka Nieto,
OK, thanks for clarification. Now I understand your point better. But that doesn’t rule out the possibility that we may get a full arch, right? They may CGI it as required. The arch may even collapse during the action sequence or something.
Jennifer,
Its a Southern building…Maybe is a KL building [Red Keep?] and maybe Cercei to explode all the City or the NK to invade there looking for her[to be his NQ?]
I hope the people in Winterfell find an escape-plan. Because the WW are coming and they need to escape to the south when the WW are attacking Winterfell.
.. ..if Unsulied or Danny or the Dragons die….the North and all Westeros will be fucked up by the NK,Cercei and Euron…Danny,her dragons and her armies are the last hope and the last chance that stands in this supernatural deadly triad of evill[NK with his undead ice zombies,Cercei with her egomania to burn with wildfire and to use her zombie pet killing innocents and Euron ”i am the storm”..who fucking knows what he is capable to do on the show]..and the only who can defeat them is Danny[and her Dragons],Jon Snow [with the Northern Army and the Army of the Vale]and Bran..with his spectacular warging/skin_changing abilities ..So you must to think before you talk or write meaningless comments…Its a good and very effective advice ..Dont you think?So go do it
No need for personal put-downs! It’s entirely possible that Dany will lose a significant part of her force – whether the Unsullied or the Dothraki or both – before it comes down to the final showdown. The dragons are her weapons of mass destruction; the others are expendable, narratively speaking.
I agree with you there need to be heavy human casualties before the Nights King is defeated, the Dothraki inparticular have no logical place in Westeros at the end of the story so probably will be wiped out.
If it’s a southern house then it should be somewhere in KL or Harrenhall. Or Howland Reed’s castle.
Firannion,
Not only Danny will suffer a loss in battle but Jon Snow too..He might loose his men too and members of his Stark family before it comes down in the finale [he has equal possibilities with Danny to die in the end] because there will be a massive and insane battle with a very low possibilities of humans winning..Its fair to be said that he migh die in the end.
They are there for a reason…and that reason is called unity against the Great Enemy..Like Jon Snow united the Widlings with the Northerners ..and she will unite her Dothraki with Westerosi for to fight all together the common enemy..I see also the Northeners wiped out or forced to leave the North going South ..NK doesnt care a fuck of how the Northeners are prepared well for the battle ..In the eyes of death all the peoples are the same and NK is THE DEATH.Capito?
Artemisia,
Settle down.
Aren’t they part of the same team? I agree we’ll lose some of the northern folks too.
As for Dany or Jon, I suspect Dany is more likely to die than the rightful king whose identity has been a hidden secret but I wouldn’t rule that out either.
Artemisia,
But the Dothraki are not good they rape and pillage that’s what they do, they are not suddenly going to take up charity work once the fighting is over. Hence logically speaking they’ll probably be destroyed by the White Walkers. I don’t particularly care about the Unsullied but at least they will serve who ever ends up on the Iron throne, I assume they will support Jon if Dany bends the knee.
Masterofhtrones,
Why should the northeners escape Winterfell? Where would they go? The Vale might be an option, but it has no food supplies prepared. So, holding Winterfell is their only option.
I agree Inga, with only six episodes left I suspect we will see the Last Hearth, Castle Black etc fall with heavy human casualties and then a final stand off at Winterfell where the Nights King is finally defeated (I’d guess in episode 5). Episode 6 then resolves who rules Westeros in teh aftermath and the final arcs for the surviving characters.
Jon Snowed,
I concur. Storywise, the Dothraki should be decimated by the WW, otherwise Westeros will end up under the rule of some savage khal (which won’t be sweet).
Danny to die instead is just too predictable and has become cliche because the 99%of the GOT fans expecting that to happen in the end..and would be too fan_service if happened…The one who will die from those two ..is that character who nobody expects to die…Jon Snow…Its seems Danny… but death possibilities can increased easily and in the other side ..GOT its never fair for peoples like Jon Snow.
Inga,
I agree that retreating to the Vale might not be an option, just because the mountain passes should be impassable come winter.
As to the food situation, the Vale actually has the best food situation. Not depleted and destroyed by war. In the books LF is looking to exploit this financially.
Artemisia,
Anyone can make up statistics to suit their own purpose. 99% of people know that.
I’ve heard a lot of fans think that Jon will die, Dany will die, both will die, and neither will die and everything in between, so I wouldn’t assume that nobody expects Jon Snow to die…
Jon Snowed,
I agree for Dothraki…but what about Cerceis-Eurons Ironborns?..Are from the same paste with the Dothraki and even worse..because they worship a noble discusting rapist[brother rapist also] who consider himself God..And i assume that Jon will never want Danny to bent the knee on him..because she will be his wife and will has his son in S8..He will treat her like equal to him as she will do the same ..because also they are family members …..You should deal with this ..there is no middle ground …….
Mr Derp,
i think we should to assume for him dying also..its on the game and the game is never fair..Remember that…will help you
I will be surprised if either the Dothraki or Iron born are left in any meaningful numbers at the end of this story.
We will wait and see regarding Jon and Dany but it’s clearly going to be a bombshell to them both that they related and he is the rightful heir.
Jennifer,
I too was wondering if we would see Last Hearth or even Karhold next season since Jon briefly mentioned that these are the nearest castles to Eastwatch. But I don’t know how Alys Karstark & the new lord Umber (and their castles) will fit in next season given that it’s only 6 episodes. I wouldn’t mind seeing new Northern castles though.
Jon Snowed,
But that bombshell…will be not for long..because she will stay pregnant with his son..and Jon doesnt wanted his son to be a bastard or to raised without father and mother,…He is too honorable …and he might let the Throne to Danny and to his son instead to sit alone there…He is selfless and will not wanted to be king …will make his son with Danny king and his mother queen regent
It’s only a theory she will get pregnant with his baby and you seem to already know the gender and what will happen 😉
If the FINAL battle against the night king be in WF, will be the most retarded thing ever in a show, the first and major threat since the first episode, the threat and danger that was building every season be defeated in the same region they were, the north, its just pure lame and sh**, and will look like the were not that much of threat or something that hard to stop,the people in the south would just look and say ´´oh hey, the were real but not even close to be a big threat, they were defeated in the north itself, not even close to come here´´, at LEAST the riverlands and the vale has to suffer and feel the NK power. and they HAVE to lost WF in a battle and the final battle be on the trident or in Kings landing.
for god sake, DD cant be that dumb to write the NK being destroyed in the north itself.
talvikorppi,
In general yes, the Vale should have sufficient food supplies. But where is that food? Scattered all over the country, I guess – at least in the show. No-one took actions to bing resources to Eyrie or any other castle, and the Bloody gates wouldn’t be impenetrable to the wights who can climbe like spiders. So, the Vale is not prepared for the siege in the show and no-one has ever made any retreat plans. All the resources have been concentrated in Winterfell and it would be rather stupid to abandon all the setup for the siege. In the books, things may be different and some stand at the Bloody Gates of the Vale may happen but the show doesn’t have time and money to drag the war. I even doubt that we will see the fall of the Last Hearth and/or Carhold: their residents may simply abandon the castles and flee to WF. There is no much need to show how destructive the WW are after Hardhome. Storywise, we need only two battles: at Winterfell and at King’s Landing. The garrison of Castle Black shoud flee to Winterfell, too.
Can’t wait to see Daenerys lose her Unsullied, her Dothraki and her dragons. I predict she’ll end up as a beggar in the streets.
I would guess more than 50% of people who watch would be ok with the NK being defeated in the North.
Although I personally think he makes it to KL
Aguero,
Who said that Winterfell will be the place of the final battle? The final battle should take place in KL where the Night King should unexpectedly land after being defeated at Winterfell. But Winterfell should be the major midseason victory, so the protagonists could muster some confidence before the final stand.
And BTW, I think that the main casualty of the war against the WW should be Tyrion: that would be much more unexpected than killing Dany and/or Jon.
Not really a prediction but a huge amount of Dothraki would fit with westerosi history.
Westeros has continually had invaders come in and they end up being assimilated and also influencing the culture.
The Dothraki and Wildlings would just be another line in this tradition.
Of 100 people surveyed in my mind, 50% think Dany will die. 62% think Jon will die, 38% think both will die and an oustanding 87% go with everything in between.
Statistics!
Adam,
Unfortunately for you this will never happen. She’ll either be dead or still in a position of royalty and prominence. Nothing in between.
House Monty,
The Wildlings are natives. Basically they should be descendents of the First Men (and maybe event the Andals) who re-populated the true north after the Long Night. That doesn’t make them much better but at least they speak the same tongue and, luckily, their numbers have shrunk to the minimum.
The Dothraki is a different story and I can fully see them “enriching” Westros with their raping and plundering culture. I have already written that I can fully see them putting their khal on the Iron Trone but that would be a rather bitter ending (though rather realistic, too).
Artemisia,
“So you must to think before you talk or write meaningless comments…Its a good and very effective advice ..Dont you think?So go do it”
What’s that old adage about the pot and the kettle?
“On second thought, let’s not go to Winterfell. ‘Tis a silly place.”
– Night King, S8
The Dothraki follow strength and in Dany’s case, her power is her dragons (and that she is inflammable). Should Dany lose those dragons, would the Dothraki still follow? Their leader has already surmised that “your people cannot fight,” when talking to Tyrion. That would not be good for Westeros.
Jon Snowed,
TBF, out if all the theories out there, the ‘Dany having Jon’s child’ is a good 70 – 80% gonna happen. I think most people are agreed on this now. What it means for them as a couple we cannot say, but ‘the kid’ is worth laying down some money at the Bookies.
Ten Bears,
You can use them to boil water?
Edward,
Well, we can say with some certainty ‘the position’ she favours at the moment.
House Monty,
Yes, but regardless of whether they’d be okay with it, it’s a silly idea to introduce this vast realm, and over the course of seven feature length episodes have the greatest threat to the world stopped in its tracks less than half way down the map.
Violator,
Why?
The whole point of Jon and Dany’s alliance is to stop the Night King sweeping across the Seven Kingdoms. That’s been Jon’s entire purpose for seasons.
They’ve amassed an army of up to 100,000 men, an arsenal of dragonglass, two dragons and five Valyrian steel blades in The North. Not to mention Bran.
As Cersei said in the S7 finale, “If dragons can’t stop them. If Dothraki and Unsullied and Northmen can’t stop them. How will our armies make a difference?”.
And under what circumstances can the Army of the Dead make it south without having wiped out all our heroes in The North?
Violator,
Which is?
The Dothriaki no longer have a Khal. They were all killed. Dany is their Khaleesi and supreme leader.
Because waiting for NK in densely populated KL are 1,000,000 new recruits, with no dragonglass, no VS, no dragons, no effective leadership ir coordinated armed forces, and no expectation they’re going to be hit first. NK will presumably do a reconnaisance flyover of WF, see that Stark/Targaryen Alliance soldiers (cavalry + infantry + Special Ops) are locked and loaded. Maybe NK will send a splinter force to WF to keep the Alliance busy while he leads the bulk of his army south.
It’ll be like shooting fish in a barrel once he gets there. Cersei’s got no dragonglass. (I’ve previously speculated she will revive her S2 catapulted wildfire plan, and accidently burn down a good portion of the city.)
The Golden Company won’t help much even if they get to KL in time. The GC will, however, supply zombie elephants to join the Million Dead Man March on NK’s northbound return trip to swarm the Alliance forces.
It’d take NK months and months to scour the spacious North (population density ~ 2 people per square mile), to maybe win a few skirmishes here and there while his Undead Army and WWs suffer casualties.
By contrast, KL will be a cakewalk.
(If anybody out there has military experience, I’d be curious what he or she has to say about the tactical situation.)
Clarification(s) to 7:52 pm Comment:
• By “Special Ops”, I mean that the Alliance may have a Seal Team Six-type elite force consisting of the best warriors w/ their VS weapons. [My fanfic All-Star lineup: Jon Snow + Longclaw; Brienne of Tarth + Oathkeeper; Sandor Clegance + Heartsbane via Sam; Tormund, Jaime or Jorah + Widow’s Wail; Arya Stark + Dagger; & assorted fighters with Dragonglass weaponry.]
• Also, Bran & Sam will effectively staff the Office of Military Intelligence – perhaps with General Jaime’s help. Bran’s got the equivalent of surveillance drones and spy planes at his disposal.
• I would not be at all surprised if Jon and Team Stark/Targaryen discover that the NK and most of his Undead Army are bypsssing or have bypassed WF. That would set up a familiar dilemma for Jon: Head south with his forces to defend KL (despite Cersei’s treachery). or sit tight and let the WWs add 1,000,000+ to their ranks.
Ten Bears,
You make some intriguing points. If the NK were a regular human army general I’d be reasonably convinced about something like that going down. What makes me hesitate is that we don’t know what the
OthersWW want. (I’m so eager to know – it’s what has kept me engaged with this story for so long!)Having Cersei wake up one morning to the news that not only has Winter arrived in KL but the Army of the Dead is at the gates would be amazing. Wildfire would definitely be her response. It would be kind of cool if she actually managed to take out the NK that way. (I know, not satisfying for most viewers.)
Yes! Yes! I’d love to see that. I’m counting on Sam giving Heartsbane to Sandor.
You’ve just inspired me to visualize Cersei saying, “To Hell with it all,” hitching the last and biggest vat of wildfire to a trebuchet, climbing aboard and launching herself and it through the air, whooping like Slim Pickens at the end of Dr. Strangelove.
Ten Bears,
As I think about it some more, your idea about the NK going directly south and bypassing Winterfell echoes what Robb Stark did by crossing the Trident to take on Jaime’s smaller force rather than meet Tywin’s larger force head on. A move that Jaime himself pulled in Season 7 by attacking Highgarden when Daenerys’s alliance expected the Lannister forces to be gathered at Casterly Rock. Hmm …
Hahahaaa!
This possibility has occurred to me as well. Why risk losing his one undead dragon to two live ones, when the flock of fat sheep further south is left unguarded? Surely the Night’s King, however strange his mode of thinking may be to ours, must be aware of the symbolic importance of KL and the Iron Throne. Taking Winterfell could be intended as part of his mop-up operation. There may be something there besides dragons that makes him wary, as well: hot springs, geothermal activity and other stuff that ice demon types don’t much like.
There has even been a bit of foreshadowing of his bypassing Winterfell, arguably, in Robb’s sending only a feint to meet Tywin at the Green Fork.
Gwidhiel,
Looks like we were typing this same notion simultaneously!
Starbuck,
Yes please, with a Meera sighting, perhaps.
Good thing Peter Jackson isn’t directing, or we’d have to figure out who’s going to be the zombie-mumak-surfer.
Violator,
Dany is gonna be pregnant and have a child …i would bet the farm that will happen. The Targaryens restoration has to happen.
Well then we can be 117% sure that it’s gonna happen. 😉
• The Night King isn’t stupid. He’s sentient, he’s patient, and as he showed in “Hardhome”, he’s a bit of a showoff. He’s also prone to show up when and where there are throngs of people ripe for harvesting. By my reckoning, he’s got a 4-0 record in battles aganst humans since S1. (3-0-1 if you count “The Door” as a draw.) The more I’ve thought about it, the more it makes sense that he’ll make a beeline to KL.
• Several weeks ago, another poster came up with the intriguing idea that in Bran’s “slide show”, the image of a shadow of a dragon flying over KL is that of Undead Viserion. Maybe the NK doing a quick flyby to plan the invasion?
• The solution to what the WWs “want” has to be embedded somehere in the 67 episodes aired already. I had a convoluted, multiple-layer tinfoil theory percolating before S7, that I assumed would be debunked by the end of Episode 7. It wasn’t. I’m going to dredge it out of mothballs and see if it makes any sense.
* Cersei deploying the catapulted wildfire plan from S2e5 will probably turn out to be precisely what Bronn called it: “a sh*t idea.” As he explained to the Pyromancer and Tyrion, catapulting jars of wildfire from city walls is too risky. The people trying to defend the city are more likely to accidently burn it down.
Oh I agree that the NK isn’t stupid, is patient, and will add that he appears to have some greenseeing/whatever ability, because he clearly knew he was going to get the chance to snag a dragon for himself. And going to KL makes sense if his goal is to harvest as many of the living as possible. But are we sure that’s his goal? I just don’t know.
Ohhh nice. Yes, maybe! And that would align with Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying, the ruins of the Throne Room in King’s Landing connecting directly to snowy wasteland & The Wall.
Ten Bears:• The solution to what the WWs “want” has to be embedded somehere in the 67 episodes aired already. I had a convoluted, multiple-layer tinfoil theory percolating before S7, that I assumed would be debunked by the end of Episode 7. It wasn’t. I’m going to dredge it out of mothballs and see if it makes any sense.
Oh, please do!
Ten Bears:* Cersei deploying the catapulted wildfire plan from S2e5 will probably turn out to be precisely what Bronn called it: “a sh*t idea.” As he explained to the Pyromancer and Tyrion, catapulting jars of wildfire from city walls is too risky. The people trying to defend the city are more likely to accidentlyburn it down.
I agree, it would spell certain disaster. But it would be cool to see Cersei’s initial astonished panic congeal into fatalism as she turns to the remaining wildfire in a last-ditch effort to ward off the NK. She wouldn’t save anyone. When I said above that it would be cool if she managed to take out the NK with wildfire I meant as an ironic twist: the one person least concerned about or prepared for the NK inadvertently manages to take him out (while killing everyone in the city including herself). Obviously that’s not going to happen, but it would certainly be unexpected!
Ten Bears,
I always enjoy your comments and speculation.
What roles do you think Euron and Varys will play?
Will Euron double-cross Cersei and use the GC against her? (I keep hoping that D&D will make show!Euron as interesting and mad as he should be.)
Will Varys recognize that Cersei is mirroring Aerys and try to prevent her from destroying everyone in KL with wildfire, or will he encourage her to use the wildfire and sacrifice the city after the WW army arrives? Dany’s House of the Undying vision of the ruined throne room includes a very conspicuously placed spider….
I’d credit that one to Tyrion’s effective back-channeling, Jon was a shit negotiator on this one! :p
He did better once he was in his home element (cave)
The idea of the NK splitting his forces and going to King’s Landing while sending the other part to WF makes a whole lot of sense to me.
1.) its a smart plot from a Watsonian persoective
2.) from a doyalist persoective it allows for there to be a battle at WF and sets up a massive final battle at KL for episode 5
The pregnancy will be for sure happen…episodes 5,6 and 7 already they foreshadowing that…Its not only a theory ..its a very very outcome possible and all the things of S7 they leading to that.
Adam,
i cant wait to see your king and his northeners going refuges in Essos and abandoning Winterfell forever..In Essos he will not be king…just a beggar trying to survive with the help pf the strangers in a non friendly place for him…as just my queen has done..all those seasons..Let see and that Jon Snow suffer for a bit ..far far away from his home….Can he survive in the heat and in the dessert as my queen did or he will die letting the sand of the dessert cover his bones?
I didn’t read this because I want NO spoilers, but I like the other stuff. Maybe you could set up two sites WOTW SPOILERS and WOTW NO SPOILERS. That would be fine.
Or else I’ll have to abstain from reading for a year. Rats.
Ten Bears,
I like this. Also
Maybe Stark/Targ decide to march to KL and they meet the NK on his way back from KL, because they just have to attack KL.
The Trident seems to come up over and over in the books so..
( potential book spoiler)
Artemisia,
Sounds great to me.
Jon and Dany are equally terrible characters.
Starbuck,
Greywater Watch moves, though. Just one of the reasons I’d love to see it in S8…
Gwidhiel,
Maybe I’m just dense (and need to consult with Saner Half, the military historian), but I just assumed that, given that the NK & Army breached the wall at Eastwatch rather than Castle Black, they were headed for King’s Landing and not Winterfell. I also thought (as I’m certain other viewers have) that was part of the point of Jon’s questioning of Tyrion upon approaching KL, and the revelation that more people live there (a million+) than in the entire North.
Or would that be just too effin’ obvious?
………………………………………….LOL
hahaha…just i dont give a f0 for your opinion
The Dothraki get dragon glass too?
I think you are probably right she’ll either die or be Queen (next to Jon or in her own right) but I wouldn’t totally rule out a return to Essos either.
I agree it’s got a good chance of happening and there appears to be some set-up for it however it’s not confirm, whilst original poster spoke as if it was and then declared the gender and how it will all play out which nobody apart from those involved in the show knows at the moment.
Please stop trolling, the show is the most popular on TV and it makes far more sense for a final battle to be at a place that most of the audience can associate with (assuming it actually does go down at Winterfell which we have no confirmation of right now). Whilst it may happen at the trident in the books it would make less sense on the show given we haven’t spent time there since Season 2 or 3 and it would have no relevance for the vast majority of the audience.
That’s true Sheila but only whilst she has two dragons, she loses them and they will likely leave her as they did Khal Drogo when he became sick and weak.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Because geographically and in terms of story, it confines the threat to merely a ‘part’ of the world we’ve been exploring.
The distance from the Wall to Winterfell is tiny and in the show, negligible given how fast people move around. It simply won’t be credible that this vast army which spells death to all that lives, can only advance as far as Winterfell and that’s it. It reduces the threat to nothing by making six seasons of foreshadowing the coming of the Apocalypse only to have it snuffed out at Stark HQ. It would be very disappointing.
I have it on good authority that quite a few stunt men are flying out to Belfast this week.
Jon Snowed,
I dont think that they will leave her..more possible is the Northeners to betray Jon with the help of the jealous Sansa..than Unsulied and Dothraki Danny..She is some kind of god for them as Jon is also a god for the Freefolk
I agree that the Unsullied will not betray Dany neither would the free folk betray Jon due to the simple fact that they were saved from oppression/death however the Dothraki is different they are follow the strongest and I see no reason for them to ever change their ways. The more likely scenario is my eyes is that they are largely wiped out against the White Walkers rather than rebel/change nature once that battle is won but we have to wait a year or so to find out I guess.
I agree for the Dothraki get wiped out by the WW…but not for Unsulied….Dothraki are just unarmored fighters and could win on a battle with humans because of their speed,brutality and screaming..but they fighting on warm climates and the North climate is not for them..Unsulied are other thing of warrior ..They are trained to fight from their early childhood years to feel no pain,cold,feelings and to die with pleasure for their boss…and could not making it in S8 but they will die fighting fiercely for Danny and Jon [if he be her husband in S8]..they are smart kind of army..Some Northeners could also not making ..all those heavy clothes and furs who they wear …they limit the moves on a fight and they make the body more soft and weak
Ten Bears,
It’s true that the NK has to go to KL and better sooner than later. But it’s also true that he has to something to keep it busy, otherwise the he will get the attack on the rear before he reaches the Neck. Jon and Dany are not fools and it won’t be hard for them to figure out that the army of the dead should not be let into more populated and less prepared areas. Therefore, the first big battle with the army of the dead has to happen in the North one way or another be it at Winterfell or in an open field.
There is a time factor, too. The army of the dead is rather slow. If it marches straight to the south, there is a risk that even the south will make some last-minute preparations: Jaime can be sent back to coordinate the defence, dragonglass supply may be arranged, Qyburn may produce more scorpions, wildfire, etc.
Therefore, the NK will have to keep Winterfell blocked and that’s not an easy task. Winterfell will have dragons which means that the NK will have to hang around and provide air coverage to his army (unless other WW are as good with ice jawellins as their leader, which is not impossible, but overpowering the WW would be counterproductive, too).
Hence, I thing the NK’s plan A will be hitting Winterfell with everything he has. But that plan will fail, humans will win an intermediate vistory, and then the NK will fly to KL on his dragon to raise a new army of the dead. That would lead the story to the final stand in KL.
Ha, I took that exchange as foreshadowing how miserable Jon will be if he ends up on the Iron Throne, but you make a good point. I just looked at this awesome Google-map style map of Westeros. Now I must admit that I’m a very poor navigator but I don’t see how breaking through at Eastwatch would help the NK get to KL any quicker than if he’d broken through at Castle Black.
Given how slowly the Army of the Dead moves, it might take them a year to shuffle down to KL.
Oh this is very insightful!
My only issue with that proposal (and it’s a good one) is that we know GRRM has stated he wants to complete the story by dealing with the aftermath of the victory against the White Walkers. This to me probably means resolving who sits on the Iron Throne, resolving the Iron Born Theon/Euron/Yara and potentially marriage between Jon and Dany if they survive, not too mention some resoultion in the North with Arya, Sansa, Bran again assuming they survive.
Though I’ve pretty much given up hope of meeting older Howland Reed or visiting Greywater Watch in the TV version, I would dearly love to see a scene of the wights attempting to swarm randomly through the Crannogs, rather than trying to pass through the Neck on the Kingsroad causeway in a disciplined fashion like living armies. We have seen ambushes on the show (though, as in the Whispering Wood, they have mainly occurred offscreen), but we have not seen a truly epic sequence of guerrilla warfare. It would be hell to shoot, I suppose; but wouldn’t it be awesome to watch the wily Crannogmen – trained from birth to fight by stealth and concealment – pick off hundreds of wights one by one? (They might have a better chance to survive another Long Night than anyone else in Westeros, come to think of it.)
And then there are the lizard lions. I wonder how picky they are about rotten meat. Some dark humor might also be derived out of seeing the dogged-but-clumsy wights try to extricate themselves from bogs and quicksand, which are not discriminating about the dead-vs.-undead status of those who attempt to pass through them.
Artemisia,
The show is definitely setting up some twist with the Dothraki. In 707, they were separated from Dany and send to Winterfell on their own. They were supposed to meet Dany on the King’s Road but I have a gut feeling that they won’t arrive in time. Winter roads will delay them and what’s then? Dany will be blocked in Winterfell for an episode or two, whereas the Dothraki will be alone on the road without a proper command… Sure, Dany could have ordered Jorah to go along with the Dothraki but even in such case something should go wrong and the issue of command should arise. According to Luka, the Dothraki were not involved in the recent field scenes with the Unsullied which also hints that the Dothraki will be on their own.
As for the Unsullied, I don’t think that they will betray Dany but some dissagreements shoud break out. The showrunners have been setting this up for two seasons: in S6, Dany was called a slave-master; last leason Davos was sceptical about Missandei’s belief that Dany would give her a ship and wish happy journey, if she wanted; and there was that clash with Varys. In fact, Dany’s character development demands a healthy clash with her supporters, because she has gone a bit too far with her knee-bending demands.
As for the Northern lords and Sansa they won’t have to betray Jon now – there will be no time for that with the WW knocking an the gate. And after there will be major power shifts one way or another but Jon has to survive to be betrayed and that his survival is under question.
Look i dont think there will be time for Dannys team to betray her..as there will be no time the Northeners to betray Jon..You seem to think that Missandei will betray Danny and will turn and Greyworm against her..It could be ..but there will be consequences for her and Greyworm if they betray Danny..Danny wont leave a betrayal to happen in her side..She should to clean her team before is too late.Jon should to do the same also [Sansa has start to be suspicious with her behavior toward Jon/Dannys relationships and her behavior toward Arya and Bran]..Also Jon in S7 doesnt bend the knee for first time..He in S3 got bend the knee to Mance Rayder and in S5 to Stannis..Also he in S6 got bend the knee[not literally ..but emotionally somehow]to Sansa …sworn to protect her and to make things for her sake..causing the BOTB for her only..At all he is not selfish as Sansa or Cercei are ..he sold himself to Danny for to beg her to help them in the Great War and he didnt lie to anyone for his purpose ..even and to the bitch Cercei who wants to kill him,Danny and all those peoples that she thinks that are her enemies[including her own lover/brother]..but her real enemy will be the Night King ..who is coming for her..Euron might be too…He is snake on her team…and snakes even and if you are friendly with them …always they find a way to bite/poisoned you.
It will be interesting seeing the Unsullied fight the wights and White Walkers. I mean the Unsullied are well oiled machine and the wights are just an army of chaos! It will look awesome I can’t wait to actually see it.
Yes, me too. Although I do wonder, who will provide adequate winter clothing for the Unsullied? Perhaps Sansa’s got everyone at Winterfell trapping and skinning rabbits like mad, while staying up late every night sewing like a fiend.
Wolfish,
I’ve got an Alaska vs. San Francisco population density comparison that further illustrates why I think NK would bypass the North/WF (or just send a splinter force to keep them busy), and head straight to KL where he can shoot fish in a barrel.
I’d be really interested to find out what Saner Half thinks about this from a military perspective. I’ll try to post my estimates this evening.
(By my rough calculations from information imparted on the show, the North is as geographically vast and as sparsely inhabited as Alaska; and KL’s ~ 1 million population is on the same order of magnitude as San Francisco. Of course, NK would realize S.F. is too cool to f*ck with, and continue on to Los Angeles instead.)
tiny direwolf,
I think the discovery that the WWs are bypassing WF and heading straight to KL could set up a thorny (pun intended) dilemma for Jon that parallels the disgruntled NW brothers’ pushback to his Free Folk Resettlement Program in S5e5.
It’s only natural that some of the grumpy Northerners [yes, I’m thinking of you, Lord Glover] will say: “F*ck Cersei and KL. She abandoned us.” Jon is aware of the bigger picture, and may try to convince his bannermen and allies that they should head south and intercept the WWs.
I can envision a replay of the following exchange from S5e5, with just a few words changed:
Lord Commander Jon Snow: “Men, women, and children will die by the thousands if we do nothing.”
NW Brother: “Let them die. We got our own to worry about. Less enemies for us.”
Stannis: “Fewer.”
Davos: “What?”
Stannis: “Nothing.”
*****
Edd (?): “They killed 50 of our brothers. I can’t forget that. I can’t forgive it.”
LC Jon Snow: “You were at the Fist of the First Men. If we abandon them, you know what they become.”
Artemisia,
I don’t think that Missandei or anyone else on team-Dany will betray her. There is difference between a treason and a conflict. A treason is impossible: the only person Dany’s followers could potentially switch sides to is Jon and Jon won’t betray Dany – he loves her.
But when it comes to a conflict, many things are possible. IMO, Jon’s true parentage and status revelation will be the primary source. Dany will be in shock and disbelief. She might even try to do something impulsive, which means that her best frieds will have to take actions for her own sake. For instance, Missandei may try to reason Dany by telling her that Jon doesn’t care about titles (she knows that from their conversation in 705). Tyrion and Varys may be more manipulative and provoke Dany’s wrath and, therefore, Missandei may try to speak in their defence, too. Anyway, I don’t think there’s going to be anything major: just some tensions for the sake of drama which will be resolved in a few episodes.
Re: WWs destroying LA:
As Deep Thought, the supercomputer in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy tasked with calculating the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything, said to the representatives of the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries and Other Professional Thinking Persons when they threatened to go out on strike, “Whom will that inconvenience?”
(In the original radio scripts, DT actually says “Who,” but my Inner Stannis forbids me to render it thus ungrammatically.)
Ten Bears,
Just one comment. If the WW head south, the Vale will also be under threat which means that Bronze Royce and the knights of the Vale will insist on going on pursuit and they are Jon’s second strogest allies after Dany.
To be fair, the headline of the article says in big bold letters:
“Exclusive Game of Thrones Season 8 Spoilers: New Set Photos & Unsullied Scene”.
That’s what’s great about this site: There are always conspicuous warnings up front so you can completely avoid any details of upcoming filming if that’s your preference; and “real” spoilers such as unauthorized leaks of stolen scripts are quarantined in special pages of the Forum section.
Firannion,
Re: WWs destroying LA
“Whom will that inconvenience?”
……………..
Right! That was kind of my unspoken point.
There are not a few people who’d think NK was performing a public service.
[Just kidding…I’ve got dear friends in LA.)
Why would the Vale be “under threat”, and why would Royce and the KotV be inclined to chase after the WWs? Wouldn’t they prefer the safety of the “impregnable” Eyre? If anything, ol’ Royce would set up a lounge chair outside, pop open a beer, and watch the procession from his mile-high perch.
Seriously though, Jon is among the handful of people who appreciate the “new math”: each human casualty = +2 net gain for Team NK.
It would seem they’re all pretty much screwed in the southern regions as they’re not fully preparing. The North to include the present Vale regiment can’t really wait or allow a large undead force to pass through The Neck into the Riverlands. The narrow there on the continent appears to be the best location for defense as opposed to trying to defeat them from within the walls of one stronghold. If they get through there they have more to worry about than The Vale; high population dispersed across a lot of land, which leads to a quicker increase in wight population.
…but… I suppose the story won’t go that way and for some reason the NK will focus all the wights on one location or something to make it easier. 😛
That was my first thought, but, the Vale of Arryn is much more than just the Eyrie. The mountains protect the area from living but probably not so much from the creepies. Still though, if they have access to The Vale they’d be on the doorstep to even greater numbers in KL.
Ten Bears,
If the NK gets past the Neck, the Vale will be under threat just like any other southern kingdom. The Bloody Gate won’t be impreganble to the wights who climb like spiders and the KotV have friends and families back home. They should be compelled to protect their country, shouldn’t they? And Jon will have every reason to help them. Therefore, in case the NK bypasses Winterfell, Jon’s most important allies will be interested in intercept him ASAP, before the AotD gets to the Riverlands.
Thinking about where the humans vs WWs clash might happen got me trying to work out the timing. If the WWs move south at the same speed they have done so far it could take them literally years to get to KL.
My very rough gestimate: in the show they said Hardhome is a week’s travel north from Castle Black and Winterfell is a week south (of CB). It took NK and co from episode 5.8 to 7.7 to get from HH to Eastwatch, which looks to be roughly three quarters of the distance to CB on a map. If we say for sake of argument that each series represents approximately 6-12 months, that means it took them 12-24 months to travel the distance humans apparently could in 5-7 days. (Some of this was presumably by ship, but as far as we know, the WWs/wights will have to do it by land.) Cersei laments it took a month to get from KL to WF, so it’s about 5 weeks south of the Wall. At that super slow rate it would take 5 years+, so unless passing through the Wall allows them to dramatically speed up, everyone will have died of old age/boredom before the main army of the dead gets to them.
Now we know that GoT plays fast and loose with the concept of time, but unless NK takes the Viserion express he presumably isn’t going to get to KL any time soon, not with a sizeable number of his posse anyway. Might be solo tour time? 🤔
Interesting. I always thought GRRM was setting it up for all the main characters to start off together in Winterfell, all get farther apart and grow as characters, then get brought back together where it started.
I’ve always predicted it would end in Winterfell. If nothing else it’s called “Winter Fell”
Lulus Mum,
Ah, but the Night King is resourceful. He got himself a dragon. It shouldn’t be too difficult to get his hands on LF’s jetpack technology.
All kidding aside, the wights seem to be able to pick up the pace when necessary. They were pretty fast chasing Jon & co. to the sea in Hardhome, and running after the Snow Patrol onto the frozen lake.
If they shuffled along like slackers on Ambien all the time, Benjen wouldn’t have had to give up his horse to Jon. Though that was a lame excuse. Two people could’ve gotten on that horse and made it to safety. (Same nonsense that made Jack’s death ridiculous in “Titanic.” Share the raft, damnit!)
The syllable -fell is here employed in reference to a geographic feature that occurs not infrequently in English place-names. Here’s the Wikipedia definition:
“A fell (from Old Norse fell, fjall, “mountain”) is a high and barren landscape feature, such as a mountain range or moor-covered hills. The term is most often employed in Fennoscandia, the Isle of Man, parts of Northern England, and Scotland.”
Fells in Britain are typically hilltops with no forest cover where livestock are (or were once) grazed communally.
If GRRM intended a secondary, punning meaning, it seems to me more likely as a reversal of the phrase “fell (grim, fierce, ruthless) winter.”
You could be right, but I’d go with one of the other interpretations first.
Firannion,
Very strong intellectual point I can’t really retort against. If I can try succinctly as possible– years ago when breaking it down and I believe George said himself he wanted to have all these characters start in this one place and then have them spread out throughout the series and once they reached a huge change, then begin to have them all come back to the beginning stage– which is becoming closer to fact everyday that the point will be Winterfell.
Other than other names of places where one coming up for a name would be like “okay what would a place like this be called in a culture like this” it wouldn’t be far to think that when naming his first major place their would be more meaning to GRRM trying to come up with a logical name .
With all the natural advantages WF has against winter like the warm springs, the fact that it is the only castle that looks like it has been added on over and over against in different acrhitectural styles. The fact the White walkers have fought and lost somewhere before, and now we have possible time loops and time travelers who can change the past… more and more suggests that WF has been the place that Winter fell at Winterfell which is why it was called that in the first place.
Maybe some people don’t want it to end there but I can’t be the only one who has always thought the story was set up from the beginning can I?
Not just Bran, Jon, Aria, Danny, Sansa but Theon, Jamie, Tyrion, Brienne, little finger (too early but still got there). I have pretty much had no doubt since the Red Wedding
Firannion,
Very strong intellectual point I can’t really retort against. If I can try succinctly as possible– years ago when breaking it down and I believe George said himself he wanted to have all these characters start in this one place and then have them spread out throughout the series and once they reached a huge change, then begin to have them all come back to the beginning stage– which is becoming closer to fact everyday that the point will be Winterfell.
Other than other names of places where one coming up for a name would be like “okay what would a place like this be called in a culture like this” it wouldn’t be far to think that when naming his first major place their would be more meaning to GRRM trying to come up with a logical name .
With all the natural advantages WF has against winter like the warm springs, the fact that it is the only castle that looks like it has been added on over and over against in different acrhitectural styles. The fact the White walkers have fought and lost somewhere before, and now we have possible time loops and time travelers who can change the past… more and more suggests that WF has been the place that Winter fell at Winterfell which is why it was called that in the first place.
Maybe some people don’t want it to end there but I can’t be the only one who has always thought the story was set up from the beginning can I?
Not just Bran, Jon, Aria, Danny, Sansa but Theon, Jamie, Tyrion, Brienne, little finger (too early but still got there). I have pretty much had no doubt since the Red Wedding. Winterfell has always been the center of it
I know…but Danny is full in love with Jon as he with her…and there also will be a solution in this problem…This solution will be the upcoming Dannys foreshadowed pregnancy who will force them to got married for the sake of the child +Jon doesnt want to be King and Danny may to find this as a way for to break the wheel and to restore the Targaryen family via her son with Jon..Tyrions plans about Cerceis child will be hard to continue..and he will be on a dilemma ..Cerceis son or Dannys son on the Throne..because both possibilities will be benefit for him and his plan..Missandei migh be OK and she to advise Danny to accept the situation and to marry Jon[Bran or Sam will advising Jon to do the same]and so their child to be the rightful heir and to not caused a conflict between them..As for Varys ..he might agree..but i dont trust him ..He isnt like Littlefinger ..but he has also his hidden intentions for the Throne and he could manipulate everyone for to take what he wants.
Ten Bears,
Maybe they are Usain Bolt type wights; very fast over short distances but more of a saunter over the longer ones. Or perhaps they only speed up when they see some potential recruits. As a wise person once said, a journey takes exactly as long as the plot requires it to, so whether 20 minutes or 20 years NK will appear wherever he needs to be at just the right moment. It’s almost as if we are watching something completely made up and not a documentary after all! 😉
Ten Bears,
In the books the White Walkers are very quick, while the Wights are slow and clumsy. Don’t know if that’s different in the show.
But I also think a part will go to Winterfell and another part goes south to Kingslanding.
I’m afraid the Wildlings and the Night’s Watch won’t survive because there are directly in the line of fire. The people in Winterfell might be alright for a while if Dany arrives on time with her dragons and her unsullied with dragonglass. They cannot have Sam, Bran, Arya and Sansa die in the very first episode. If they die it will be near the end.
So happy there are no leaks so we can speculate. Didn’t mind much for the previous seasons because I knew the main characters like Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Cersei, … would survive anyway. But I do think near the end some of them might die, and I want to be surprised.
Artemisia,
I have to say that I will be kind of disappointed, if the showrunners use Dany’s pregnancy as a solution or a marriage trigger. Two resposinble adults should mary like two responsible adults, babies should come afterwards.
Well, Sandor’s sidekick Captured Wight could’ve won a gold medal for the 50-yard dash. 🏅He flew out of that box and within a hair of Cersei’s face in no time flat.
I’d bet he could beat Rickon in a footrace too. 🏃💀
I agree ..but isay that he baby also will resolve the problem of who is the rightful heir to the throne ..because the baby will be the rightful heir to the end via both of them..Ane we cant do anything…the showrunners what on their mind..its kinda unknown
I feel exactly the same so glad there haven’t been any real leaks so far, I want to avoid all plot spoilers and I’m highly encouraged nothing seems to have leaked during the first couple of months of filming.
Also really enjoying the speculation knowing that we are all just guessing based upon what has gone done in the books and show and where it may lead us at the end. Characters have been safe so far but now anyone could do and I’m sure there will be some big surprises.
Whilst i agree in principle the reality is that a pre-marriage baby quite often is the trigger for marriage for many young people in real life.
Jon Snowed,
21st century first world problems. Not in this show, please! Jon has never been that type of a guy.
Oh I don’t think pre-marriage babies are only a 21st century problem – lots of young folks in bygone eras (were) rushed to the altar, and welcomed their first child less than nine months later.
And it’s interesting that you say that “Jon’s not that kind of guy” – I agree. In the first season he explained to Sam that he’d passed on a chance for sex because he didn’t want to risk fathering a bastard. That’s part of the irony of this situation: in his mind having sex with Daenerys is a no-risk opportunity, because she’s repeatedly stated that she’s infertile.
I don’t have a strong belief one way or another about the possibility of Dany getting pregnant with Jon’s child. On the one hand, I don’t see why the showrunners would take a fan favorite out of the action. People (including me) love to see her swooping in and raining fire down on unworthy enemies. If she can’t ride Drogon into battle, what’s she going to do – ask Sansa to teach her how to embroider? A Jon-Dany child isn’t necessary for a Fire/Ice or Targaryen/Stark union, since Jon is already those things. So I wonder what purpose it would serve, in the story or for the storytellers.
On the other hand, we know GRRM likes to give characters second chances to get something right. People have frequently made comparisons between Jon/Sansa and Ned/Cat. The latter entered an unexpected marriage for political reasons, and although their marriage ultimately was good, it suffered from Cat’s resentment of the presence of Jon-the-fake-bastard-son-with-an-unnamed-mother in Winterfell. For reasons I won’t go into here, and which I know many people disagree with, I feel pretty sure that Dany will not survive to the end of the series. Wouldn’t it be ironic if Jon and Sansa end up having to marry for political reasons, and she has to accept Jon’s actual bastard child, with a very well-known mother?
We know that Cat tried to love Jon but, as she explained to Talisa in S3e2, she failed. I always liked Cat (although not some of the things she did). I think what must have made Jon’s presence in Cat’s family so intolerable was Ned’s refusal to tell her anything at all about Jon’s mother. From what we know of Cat, I think she’d have had no trouble loving Jon if she’d known the truth about his parentage, or even if Ned had told her a “white” lie about an imaginary tavern wench. Ned being Ned – unwilling to lie unless it was absolutely necessary to save Jon’s life – hurt Cat.
But there’d be no hiding who the mother of Jon’s bastard was. I’d like to think Sansa would rise to the occasion: she has already recognized that, following her mother’s lead, she’d at times been less-than-loving to Jon when they were children. What better way to mend that than by giving Jon & Dany’s bastard the love that Cat hadn’t been able to give Jon?
Pretty far-fetched, I know. But I do think an ending like that would qualify as “bittersweet.”
Let’s not forget that the NK has literally been waiting for the opportunity to bring the wall down, by procuring a wight dragon. So that kinda explains why the WW/TAOTD were trudging around for so many seasons.
Now they have what they need I imagine they’ll be able to make a fairly steady pace south. Let’s face it, they don’t need to stop to rest or to re-supply, and the cold certainly won’t slow them down. 😃
Sadly, after the BoB episode, anything which can move would beat him in a race 🙁
The Night King with his dragon can drop a few White Walkers in The Vale, The Riverlands and Kingslanding. The White Walkers can kill people to make Wights. And the Wights can kill other people that the White Walkers can turn.
There’s no need for the whole army to go south, he can create new armies very quickly.
Does anyone know how many white walkers there are? If he has hundreds of them he can drop them all over Westeros and even Essos if it’s cold enough there.
Artemisia,
Tyrion’s plans concerning Cersei’s (and Jaime’s, let’s not forget that) child is just pure fan speculation. Nothing wrong with speculation, but speculation should be signalled as such, not stated as confirmed facts. Using words like IF or COULD or MAY, or even phrases ‘I think…’ or ‘It seems to me…’
I’m not surprised there is this fan theory/speculation that Tyrion made some sort of a deal with Cersei between when their one-on-one scene cut off and Cersei returned to the Dragonpit. It may well have happened, we don’t know, especially we don’t know the contents of such a deal if any. It’s a popular speculation that Tyrion offered to seat Cersei’s child on the Iron Throne after Dany. (How could he do that, though?)
This speculation has two flaws. 1) Cersei wants the throne for herself, she doesn’t want to be the mother of the heir and then queen mother yet again. Tyrion might’ve believed her but I as a watcher certainly wouldn’t; and 2) as soon as Jaime turns up, Tyrion will know Cersei already reneged on her end of the deal. Unless you want to speculate that Tyrion and Cersei together concocted the plan of Cersei seemingly joining the coalition but secretly intending to withold her forces and keep the throne while her enemies destroy themselves fighting the WW threat and save Cersei’s kingdom for her.
I find it a looong stretch to believe Tyrion would’ve allied with Cersei against Dany (maybe he could be tempted by Casterly Rock and the Lord Paramountship of the Westerlands… But surely Dany would offer him the same?) and even a loooonger stretch that Cersei would secretly ally with Tyrion – the brother she’s hated ever since he was born, the one she thinks killed her beloved mother and then her beloved Joffrey. She might’ve believed or not Jaime when he told her that Lady Olenna killed Joffrey, but that was only secondary. Her first reason for hating Tyrion has always been the death of their mother. In the books, also a certain part of the Maggy the Frog prophecy (cold open to S5) that the show left out.
All in all, IF Tyrion and Cersei made some sort of a deal, I don’t think it included Jaime leaving Cersei and spilling the beans. Hm… This could actually get interesting. The younger Lannister brother, Hand of the Queen (Daenerys), turning out to be a traitor, and the older Lannister brother, the Kingslayer, turning out to be the (newly) loyal one… He could even (book spoiler)
But he’s doomed anyway, so maybe it doesn’t matter.
But all this is just speculation. Fun, though.
Ooh, I’d never considered that – what a prospect. So many options for the NK, assuming his goal is to kill everyone and re-raise them.
Gwidhiel,
Hey, I like your speculation about Sansa and Jon. I don’t think that’s how it’s gonna go down but you made a strong, interesting case, enjoyed reading it, thanks. As to the icky incest factor, Jon and Sansa are less related (cousins) than Jon and Dany (aunt and nephew). The problem is that Jon and Sansa grew up as (half)siblings… though Jon and Sansa were never as close as Jon and Arya. (Uhm, there are a lot of Jon&Arya shippers around the internet…)
As to the not-so-subtly forshadowed and now speculated Dany pregnancy. They don’t have modern pregnancy test kits in Westeros, it could take her up to 4 or 5 moonturns to realise she’s pregnant, so she can ride her dragon and swoop down on the wights and White Walkers to her (and yours) heart’s content. Or how long did you think the Great War is going to last? Months or years?
Also, pregnant women aren’t these delicate flowers that should abstain from all physical activity from the get go. It’s only during the last few weeks that you have to leave off the more strenous activity, if the pregnancy progresses normally. It’s not an illness.
As to GoT, the interesting points are 1) when do Jon and Dany find out about his parentage, if they do, and how it affects them and their bannermen; and 2) when do Jon and Dany find out about the speculated pregnancy and how it affects their personal relationship and the whole political situation. Lots to look forward to in S8.
That is a major question, and one I’m not sure will be specifically answered on the show. The most we’ve seen at one time or in one scene is 13 plus the NK (baby on the pedestal scene: 12 in the distance behind the NK and the one that delivered it). Jon has destroyed two, one by Sam (before baby scene) and one by Meera. What has been said on the show and what was written in the books there should be many more. Craster alone had been sacrificing his sons for years. Have they taken boys from wildling camps? Were there no living baby boys among the masses outside Hardhome? Where did the baby go and other young WWs?
Aaah, you’re so chillingly right! The show has already established that several “passengers” can ride a dragon if its controller is abroad = Dany rescuing Jorah, Beric, Tormund, and Sandor and the wight he has to babysit.
So who’s to say the NK can’t use the wighted Viserion to drop White Walkers in strategic positions… Gods, this just got scary!
I think the show has shown us about a dozen White Walker generals (the baby-turning scene back in S4 or S5). The point is that even if there are more, they are few compared to their army of the dead… And now that the show has, somewhat cheaply, established that killing the controlling WW with Valyrian steel or dragonglass also “kills” the wights raised/controlled by him… uhm… It’s all set up for the “good guys” to win. Hey, I want the good guys to win but destroying the NK and about a dozen, or even 99 (Craster’s sons) White Walkers in some straight all out battle… And Bran providing the key to fight with his spooky knowledge.
I dunno. This whole, big story can go so many different ways. GRRM has told D&D the ultimate end game for a few main characters, and as Jon told Arya in book 1: “Sometimes different roads lead to the same castle.”
If you think about it the most logical prediction would be for Jon to find out about his parentage at the end of episode 1. Allowing first for the whole politics of him arriving with a Targ in toe and the resentment from Sansa, and positivity of meeting Arya again. Episode 2 I would assume Dany finds out and this will create initially some sort of rift whilst at the same time the White Walkers are rampaging through the north. The baby surely comes after this (if it happens) and is the thing that brings them back together in episode 4 or 5.
Of course nothing is for certain but this is going to go down badly for both Jon and Dany.
My understanding is they know the fates of all major characters and how the story will conclude. They clearly also know the fate of some minor characters (Shireen, Hodor and probably Stannis) but not others such as the Hound.
I agree with the whole Tyrion betray Danny think…Its the confirmed betrayal for love..For the love of family [its even greater than the love for a man or a woman..because its the first thing that the human knows in life].. I agree also tha Jaime switch sidesfor better..But i disagree about Dannys pregnancy and Cerceis pregnancy..I assume t[only assumes we can make..nothing else] that Danny will stay somehow pregnant [its also foreshadowed and in the books..not only in the show]and she may give birth to this child in the end..because this child will be a fit thing for the bittersweet end..actually the sweet part of the end..if directors agrees to follow GRRM vision and to make his word true…I believe that somehow will see that..As for Cercei..i think she or is sick with tumor[she thinks she is pregnant but not] or is fake pregnant[she lying for to make Jaime and Tyrion to feel sorry and to go with her against Danny/Jon]..Its only a suspicion and we can just only assume that..im not sure..But Cercei is capable to do everything..even and to play theater and to tell lies in everyone..so i cant take her ”pregnancy”as really confirmed thing..In her scene with Tyrion ..her moves was completely theatrical..and Tyrion got easily into a dilemma/trap..duty[to Danny]or family[his unborn ”nephew/niece”]..With her everything is possible ..even and a fake pregnancy…
Gwidhiel,
talvikorppi,
We must have been watching a different show. In 707, Jon explicitely stated that Dany’s belief in her infertility was based on an unreliable source of information. So, it was very clearly implied that he wanted children and marriage, not just a casual romance.
As for Sansa, she has already atoned for her mother’s sins by recognising Jon as a Stark. And she has no reason to oppose Jon’s marriage to Dany. As Littlefinger have said, the alliance makes sense and indeed it does in every possible way.
The only one who might not want a marriage is Dany. She is that type of an independent woman with a ton of insecurities. She may come up with a crazy idea that Jon is a liar who tries to steal her throne after finding out that he is a legitimate heir but it won’t be for long. I just don’t want pregnancy to be a decisive factor in this process: it may happen, but it would be cliché.
As for the WW, I like the idea of the NK deploying them all over Westeros but I don’t think it’s going to happen in the show, because in such case the protagonists will also have to run (or fly) all over Westeros and take them out one by one, which would be repetitive and boaring (and add to the costs without a real payoff). The most classic scheme would be an intermediate battle (most probably at Winterfell), then an unexpected counterattack of the bad guys (“The Empire strikes back”), and then the final stand (at King’s Landing most probably).
Lonely Cat,
Lonely Cat:
I just saw your 11/19/17, 11:31 pm reply & questions (about Euron and Varys). I’ll follow up later, though I should tell you I’m not a huge fan of the Greyjoy storylines, and I’m perplexed by Theon’s purported “redemption arc.” More on that later.
I’ve been distracted by other S7 quandaries that I’ve been trying to resolve (because what elsd is there to do when sitting in the dentist’s chair?), e.g,, in S7e4 why did Jon say he had thought Arya was dead?
Artemisia,
Cersei’s scene with Qyburn implies that the pregnancy is not fake. If it’s a mistake it should be Qyburn’s mistake, not Cersei’s, but, as he seems to be rtaher competent, I would rule that out, too.
As for Tyrion’s potential deal with Cersei, he could have easily offered some safety guarantees for the baby without betraying Dany, because what could Dany actually do, if Cersei’s baby is born – kill it in the cradle? Sure, that’s not her. And it would have been too early to speak of putting that baby on the throne – it has to be born first.
I’m sure Jon would like to have children and marriage just as many people do, but I don’t know how you can draw that conclusion specifically out of Jon telling Dany that she might not be correct about her infertility. I just took it as a common sense answer to what Dany said. Someone should’ve said it to her sooner.
Inga,
I don’t think all the white walkers need to be killed one by one. I think killing the Night King will be enough (that’s what Beric said), not that that is going to be easy.
Chilli,
Agreed. If it wasn’t for that shortcut, there really wouldn’t be a chance for the “good guys” to win at all.
I’m not sure that the TV version conveys this quite so clearly, but in the books, the Others/WW don’t need to go where it’s cold; they generate the cold and bring it with them.
Even in the show, when we see Bran’s vision of the creation of the Night’s King by the CotF, that stone circle in the Land of Always Winter is surrounded by green growth. The WW do seem to be cold elementals.
I’ve been predicting all along that the off-switch for the whole WW + wights hivemind is the dragonglass shard in the NK’s chest. Someone needs to get close enough to yank it out without dying first. So no, not easy at all, and likely a suicide mission. In the books, Euron reportedly has a suit of Valyrian steel armor that might prove useful in this task, but I don’t think it has been mentioned on the show.
i agree somehow for Tyrion doing that…but i disagree about Cerceis pregnancy..you right about Qyburn ..He is some kind of doctor ..but his skills as Pycele did said ..are very dishonest and suspicious ..Maybe as i said Cercei thinks that she is pregnant ..but actually she has a tumor on her belly..means cancer ..and she may die from this next season.
Chilli,
Yes, Beric said that killing the Ningh King should kill all the WW. But this may be a wrong assumption. The Night King painted on the wall of the dragonglass cave had a beard, the present Night King has no beard. The cave painting implies that there could have been a different Night King during the first Long Night and, therefore, nothing is certain. The showrunners may complicate things, though I hope they won’t. Anyway, I like the idea of the Night King torching/freezing several castles on his way to KL and deploying his leutenants all over Westeros. From what we saw, now he has eight of them: one for each kingdom + one for KL. Sounds like a right number…
Mr Derp,
Sorry, but Dany was dicussing her infertility issues with Jon for two episodes. Even a total idiot would have understood that she was discussing the prospects of marriage.
Artemisia,
But why would Qyburn be lying to Cersei?
Inga,
I’m well aware of what happened on the show, and yes, I do believe it is a strong possibility they will have a child at some point. Any “idiot” can make that assumption. What I’m disputing is that you seem to be implying that Dany was specifically dropping hints to Jon that she wants him to impregnate her when she was discussing her infertility, and I was simply saying that I don’t think that was the case. I don’t know what your problem is.
There is absolutely no need at all to start using the word “idiot” in a casual conversation about a fantasy show. Why did you feel the need to do that? You should be able to articulate your points without resorting to acting like a 5 year old.
Yah, so nice you all get so agitated by some low-level filming spoilers and about all the speculations, offer your views and speculations. I’m too lazy to properly speculate but I really enjoy reading yours.
It better not be a cancerous tumor. That is not how Cersei needs to go.
What has plagued Cersei from the beginning, and what should be the end of her is: hubris.
I do not doubt her pregnancy. It could kill her and that would be a weak kind of hubris in that she is trying to circumvent the prophesy.
Better still, however, since it would be more consistent, is that she is betrayed/murdered at the hands of someone she believes is on her side (“No one walks away from me…”) or she is killed by the wildfire she intended for everyone else. Hubris.
Mr Derp,
Oh, but I didn’t mean you when I wrote “an idiot”! I ment knower-of-nothing Jon Snow. Sorry, if turned a wrong way – English is myt third language and sometimes I choose a wrong expression. I hope you can forgive me, though in general I can’t agree on your point. In my experience, woment don’t discuss such an intimate issue like ferility problems with some random strangers or even casual lovers. They do that only if they see a man as a potential husband. That’s a way of giving an early warning.
Sorry once again, if I have offended you.
Inga,
Third language?? You write in English better than many natives of the language! It’s quite impressive as English is a difficult language.
Mr Derp,
Not to speak for Inga, but English isn’t her mother tongue, so maybe some things get “lost in translation”, expressed poorly in English, get across badly. She writes such good English, the onus is actually on the native English speakers to understand, to grasp, how well non-native speakers write English, not their mother tongue.
English isn’t my mother tongue either, and I know I often express myself in English in a non- or rather ffee cative way. So what? Few native English-speakers could express themselves freely my language, or Swedish (and Norwgian and Danish), German or bits of French, Italian and Russian, like I do. I know and undrstand English isn’t the be all, end all that brexitets and trumpist like to think. Nastarovne, kippis, cheers, whatever..
talvikorppi,
It’s not a competition about how many languages people speak. And how she explained it made perfect sense. But politics is an ugly language – let’s try to avoid it here.
Arggghh! If the solution to this existential threat that’s been built up for eight years is simply to kill the Night King, and then all the WWs and wights are instantly deactivated, I am going to be pissed.
Then GoT 33will just be another retread of the tired old sci-fi cliche already used in Starship Troopers, Independence Day, and scores of other movies and TV shows:
He is a Maester now….and the Maesters there are conspirators …Like Littlefinger and Varys..Qyburn is playing the game of thrones now.
Of course for her character it will be weak to die like this..I expect Euron[little brother] or Jaime[little brother] or even and Arya [little sister]to kill her wearing Qyburns face.
Artemisia,
Qyburn is not a Maester and he is in a conflict with the Citadel. I could imagine him being Varys’ agent but even in such case I can’t see how Cersei’s fake pregnancy could serve the interests of Varys or Daenerys by extension.
On the other hand, I can see Cersei’s baby being a part of the WW plot: the Night King need human babies to procreate, so, if Cersei gives birth to a son, she will be able to offer the Night King what he wants. Or there is a more simple solution: Cersei may abort the baby in revenge to Jaime for leaving her – that would definitely make Jaime to choak life out of her, when he learns. One way or another, Cersei’s love to her children has always been her sole redeaming quality and IMO she has to lose this quality to complete her character development and self-destruction.
Ten Bears,
Sure, I guess we all would prefer the solution to the existential threat to be equally existential. But on the other hand, look at how the Wall was knocked off. I just hope the Night King’s demise to be something more than a swing of the Longclaw. I would love to see Arya playing some part in it as a champion of the Many-faced God restoring the balance between life and death as it should be.
Agree….May the NK fly to KL letting the other WW to continue to fight in the North ..And he maybe wants Cerceis unborn bastard ..for the last sacrifice and her to be his NQ….Do you remember the promo trailer for S7?..Cerceis cold breath indicate maybe that..idk..but it seems kinda strange..As for she to kill the baby avenging Jaime…that will be so cold-hearted thing ..the most evil think that she will done ever..I hope Jaime didnt learn that..will break completely his heart…
Inga,
• I trust that the ending will be more creative than “kill the NK, and all of the WWs and wights collapse.” My point was, that’s been used so many times already, e.g., Starship Troopers (“yay! we got the Brain Bug!”); Independence Day (infect mother ship with virus); and Edge of Tomorrow (gotta kill the Omega).
• When Beric suggested they target the NK, Jon said “You don’t understand…” I did not know what to make of that.
• Several years ago, GRRM invoked the ire of the creators of “Lost” when he not only criticized the ending as disappointing, but did so in scatological terms. (He likened the ending to having a ____ left on his doorstep.) At that time, he said he was confident the endng planned for GoT/ASOIAF would be satisfying and well-received.
• Personally, I don’t feel “Let’s find the NK’s On-Off switch and shut him down!” would be an ingenious or fitting resolution.
Ten Bears,
We don’t know if the books and the show will have the exact same ending. In books you can elaborate more and give more background. The show must work with visual things and easy to understand or the casual viewers cannot follow.
Ten Bears,
I concur but is there any alternatine? Some sort of pact? I would like that but not with the Night King. I would prefer the Many-faced God. ASOIAF as I see it is very much about acceptance of mortality and balance between life and death. But the Night King or the White Walkers in general are not the part of the balance. They are a distrotion: neither dead, nor alive, not dying and not living. They have to be destroyed so the rule of only death can pay for life could prevail. Meanwhile, the Many-faced God represents death balanced with life. So, I put my hopes into Arya as his champion. Though I may be totally wrong.
You left out the Hive Queen in Ender’s Game.
But really, what would be more original and satisfying? Lots more hand-to-hand fighty-fighty until every last wight has been hacked to smithereens too tiny to bother anyone? Dany swooping in on Drogon ex Machina and torching the lot?
Tropes aren’t necessarily terrible just because they’re tropes. Just think of ‘baby condemned to death, spared by pitying servant/feisty mother/tiny boat/warning from passing Magi etc., grows up elsewhere, learns destiny, goes back and triumphs.’ It has been done a thousand times, with variations: Perseus, Oedipus, Moses, Jesus, Snow White, Perdita in ‘The Winter’s Tale,’ Harry Potter, the little boy saved by the selkies in ‘The Secret of Roan Inish,’ on and on and on. Which of these stories would you eliminate to thin a crowded field? And who’s to say that it couldn’t be done again, to good effect?
To my mind, the time and effort that it takes for them to find the key to defeating the WW are what make it not a cheesy solution. The only part of it that I’m not comfortable with is Bran being so superpowered with omniscience. Seems like too much of a shortcut.
But even then, figuring out how to get close enough to the NK to do the deed should present a major hurdle. It strikes me as an opportunity to insert something unanticipated – like Jon assumes that this is his doom, and someone else steps in to sacrifice him/herself instead (Jorah and Sandor being the more obvious alternatives).
Personally, I wouldn’t mind a little LotR homage by having Arya sneak around back and do a Merry Brandybuck on the NK with the catspaw dagger before whoever-it-is strikes the death blow. That’s not original either, but it would be the most fun sort of fan-service, IMO.
That said, I always hate it when we have to agree to disagree, Ten Bears. You always make your arguments so cogently.
Firannion,
“That said, I always hate it when we have to agree to disagree, Ten Bears. You always make your arguments so cogently.”
……………
Thank you for the second sentence!
As to the first sentence… Who says we disagree?
I accept that the showrunners have resorted to standard “tropes”, especially when they haven’t had GRRM’s meticulous plotting to rely on. They have months to plan out scripts; GRRM has years (or decades) to insure that all of the moving parts in his narrative fit together.
So it’s been glaring, but understandable, when the show falls back on familiar dramatic devices – sonetimes more than once.
For example, people have commented that the show has gone to the well too often with the “Here comes the cavalry, just in the nick of time!” resolution:
• Knights of the Vale arrive at Battle of the Bastards to turn defeat into victory;
• Brienne shows up from out of nowhere to save Sansa from Bolton search party;
• Uncle Coldhands (Benjen) rescues Meera and Bran as wights are about to overtake them;
• Stannis rescues NW from imminent Wildling attack;
• Dany arrives at frozen lake just as Snow Patrol is about to be swarmed under;
• Uncle Benjen redux: shows up at frozen lake to rescue Jon as wights are about to envelop him.
[to be continued…keyboard’s starting to freeze]
Inga,
No worries. I am sorry for the misinterpretation on my part.
Jon Snow: “What did father use to say? Everything before the word but is horse shit.”
The incident you felt the need to get involved in was nothing more than a misinterpretation between Inga and myself. It didn’t need to involve anyone else.
How or why you decided to go off about this to me I have no idea, nor do I care to. I hate Trump and I’m also sick of hearing that turd being brought up every second of every day in situations that don’t call for it.
Mr Derp,
I realise I was overexcited and out of order, so I apologise. Can you forgive me for being a bit obnoxious and stupid?
talvikorppi,
There’s nothing to forgive 🙂 All is well and I hope we can be friends.
Mr Derp,
Yay! 😀 And of cooourse we’re friends, we’re both WotW regulars. The friendliest GoT site on the interwebs.
It’s also possible that it’s not Jaime’s baby at all but Euron’s. Either way, I expect the witch’s prophecy to prevail and this child will not come to be. Cersei is smart when it comes to some things but not so much on others. Stannis had sellsords… half left after he burned his daughter alive and more started running the other way when Ramsey’s forces approached. They will see her madness and that it may be a losing battle and may decide to take off as well. The only house that now supports Cersei is a portion of the greyjoys.. that’s not a recipe for success.
Yes if something happens to Daenerys, what will come of the dothraki on Westeros? Will they fall into the same old pattern of pillaging and be much more hated than wildlings.
Jon Snowed,
Dany will most likely die, I agree. Jon already did, and came back so it’s her turn. Dany will die but not before giving birth to her and JS inbred targarian son, who will b raised with tyrion as his godfather and auntie Gilly and uncle Samwell, raising him well and ensuring that the new lineage of Targs will b a just and honorable line.
Lyanna,
Euron Greyjoy doesn’t really support Cersei, he supports himself. The moment he can take her place on the Iron Throne, he will.
Even if Dany survives and ends up ruling I just cannot imagine the Dothraki taking up farming and living peacefully it’s just not their tradition. Which suggests to me either they are killed off (most likely) or potentially they return to Essos.
I agree that is a possible end scenario Lucy, the only thing for me is can Dany really carry a child for nine months, give birth and die over six episodes. I strongly suspect the final battle with the White Walkers will be episode 5 so unless there is a time leap somewhere we won’t see her give birth.
Jon Snowed,
Assuming she got pregnant the first night on the boat, she will already be pregnant for at least a month in the first episode. I guess they will show them arriving on land or maybe already on the road in the first episode.
In season 1 she discovered she was pregnant in episode 3 and went into labour in episode 9.
And with all the action in season 8 it’s possible she goes into labour before 9 months.