Emilia Clarke on leaving Thrones behind & Alfie Allen addresses Season 8 controversy

Theon Sansa

In new interviews focusing on their life after Game of Thrones, Theon and Daenerys actors Alfie Allen and Emilia Clarke look back on this decade-long, life-changing job, touching on how it felt to have it end and on the negative reactions to the final season.

At Esquire, Alfie Allen at first reminisces about the past in the show; about his very first day on set, in fact, in which he apparently showed up when he wasn’t needed yet:

“They said ‘we might as well put you in then’,” he laughs. But he didn’t laugh then: he felt “confused, nervous and lost” at first, as the show was his first big acting job.

That was a long time ago, however, and things changed halfway through his eight-season long run: “I think that pressure that I might have put on myself just disappeared in series four or five,” he says. “I think it just became a normal part of my life.”

Now, as he leaves the role of Theon Greyjoy behind, he is taking with him the hard-earned recognition for his talents, including an Emmy nomination: “I’d said goodbye to Thrones but then I got to end on a positive note,” Allen says on the matter.

On the theme of positive notes, Allen says he “can’t really remember ever having that much of a negative experience with any fans,” even after the negative reaction to season eight, which he says has been “blown out of proportion.” Nevertheless, he did have one “bitter” fan encounter after the ending, though he appears to take it in good fun:

“Somebody came up to me the other day in the street and was like ‘Oh man, the arc of your character, and the whole way Game of Thrones ended was just so disappointing!’. I was just standing there and he came up to me to let me know it was shit,” he laughs. “I was just like ‘Thanks man!”

YaraDany2

Though Emilia Clarke’s piece on Vanity Fair mostly deals with her life after Thrones, she does describe how she personally experienced the show coming to a close: “When it ended, I felt like I’d been dropped a thousand feet.” This reportedly meant “grappling with events she hadn’t had time to process, including her father’s death” a few years ago. “I slowed all the way down because I had to, to gently build it back up again.”

As for whether playing the ambitious Daenerys has influenced her own confidence and aspirations in some way, Clarke has a compelling answer: “I just think that ambition for everyone looks different at different stages of your life. When you’re young, you see ambition as quite relentless. You win or you lose with ambition.”

Now, that’s a Game of Thrones phrase if I ever heard one!

244 responses

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    1. Gemma, Alfie and Mark Addy are in a new drama called White House Farm. Pretty good so far!

      As for Theon, his arc from start to finish was brilliant and I loved his ending!

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    2. People that didn’t like S8 should rewatch it until they like it.

      It worked for book fans and the last 2 books. Broken Man speech=Broken Bran speech.

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    3. I loved Theon’s season 8 arc. I thought he got exactly what he wanted to redeem himself to his real family the Starks. “My real father lost his head in kings landing.” Such a great line from him. I actually prefer this to the line about being at the Red Wedding with Robb.

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    4. yay, WotW shares an article with an Alfie Allen interview. That’s nice to see. 🙂

      There’ve been quite a few interviews these past 6 months or so due to Jojo Rabbit and the soon to air Beanie Feldstein and Alfie Allen “rom com movie” (kinda sorta) called “How to Build a Girl”.

      Haute Living had a great interview with lots of Theon related content and thoughtful answers from Allen such as:

      “I poured my heart and soul into the character and my work, but there were times during the show that I felt I was being laughed at. Theon, Reek, whatever we called him at the time, was being humiliated on the show, this global juggernaut, for such a long time. And it was hard to separate myself from the character. It can really take a toll.”
      Source:
      https://hauteliving.com/2019/09/alfie-allen-haute-living-cover-story/674100/

      Anyway, don’t watch Jojo Rabbit for Allen’s sake, watch it because it’s good. 🙂

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    5. Theons and Dany’s Arc were brilliantly written from start to finish. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss did a perfect job and this just shows again how dumb some people are who have to bother actors with their stupid opinion.

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    6. Stew:
      I loved Theon’s season 8 arc.I thought he got exactly what he wanted to redeem himself to his real family the Starks.“My real father lost his head in kings landing.”Such a great line from him.I actually prefer this to the line about being at the Red Wedding with Robb.

      I’ve been trying to post a reply expanding on what you wrote but it keeps getting shunted to “That Page Not Found.” Maybe that’s because what you stated elegantly I couldn’t express my lengthy, rambling commentary.

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    7. I really can’t understand why they would walk to Alfie about season 8. Why not state that he was amazing with his role?

      And Emilia is amazing as always.

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    8. I’m tempted to say that it’s very likely that only Alfie could have made me go from absolutely wanting to strangle Theon, to making him one of my favourite characters. He is one of the major stand out actors from the show for me. ❤ And Emilia, she just makes me smile in almost every interview I see. She’s a rare one, in the best possible way.

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    9. Pigeon:
      I’m tempted to say that it’s very likely that only Alfie could have made me go from absolutely wanting to strangle Theon, to making him one of my favourite characters. He is one of the major stand out actors from the show for me. ❤….

      Arggghhhh! That’s a perfect synopsis of a long-winded Alfie Allen appreciation commentary I typed out earlier today that the Lord of Light kept diverting to “That Page Not Found” every time I pressed “Post Comment.”

      I too detested Theon at first, and only realized later that it was because Alfie Allen’s acting made me despise Theon.
      I traced the gradual turnaround in my perception of his character to Sansa’s 180 degree change of heart, from hating him (and, I think, telling him she was glad he got tortured and mutilated) … to welcoming him back to WF with open arms.
      I explained in detail why my favorite Theon scene was in S6e2? when Sansa told him if he joined the NW all his sins would be forgiven – and he replied “I don’t want to be forgiven.” I rambled on and on about Alfie Allen’s ability to portray the jittery pseudo-Reek freaking out and jumping overboard during Euron’s attack, vs. the composed, determined Theon who met Death head-on at the end.

      Maybe I should try to condense my bloated comment and see if it pleases the Lord of Light..

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    10. Ten Bears: Arggghhhh! That’s a perfect synopsis of a long-winded Alfie Allen appreciation commentary I typed out earlier today that the Lord of Light kept diverting to “That Page Not Found” every time I pressed “Post Comment.”

      I too detested Theon at first, and only realized later that it was because Alfie Allen’s acting made me despise Theon. I traced the gradual turnaround in my perception of his character to Sansa’s 180 degree change of heart, from hating him (and, I think, telling him she was glad he got tortured and mutilated) … to welcoming him back to WF with open arms. I explained in detail why my favorite Theon scene was in S6e2? when Sansa told him if he joined the NW all his sins would be forgiven – and he replied “I don’t want to be forgiven.” I rambled on and on about Alfie Allen’s ability to portray the jittery pseudo-Reek freaking out and jumping overboard during Euron’s attack, vs. the composed, determined Theon who met Death head-on at the end.

      Maybe I should try to condense my bloated comment and see if it pleases the Lord of Light..

      Well if it climbs out of posting purgatory, I’ll certainly read it! 😁 Yes, Theon and Sansa’s scenes together in S8 were some of my favourite moments, as were a number of his in S7. And man, that kick-ass fight in the weirwood forest in S8E3…I was so proud of him. Yes, I’m a complete nerd. 😄 I also really enjoy reading interviews with Alfie (a bit rarer than some) – he is an intelligent and private person which I respect. Glad he could laugh off the goof who approached him, as it aggravates me to no end when people can’t differentiate between character and actor/human.

      I haven’t seen JoJo Rabbit yet, but I definitely will. 🙂 It looks quirky and odd, both of which I can relate to. 🤪

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    11. kevin1989:
      I really can’t understand why they would talk to Alfie about season 8. Why not state that he was amazing with his role?

      He was good in his role. He should have had more screentime. I wished the showrunners had pulled the plug on Euron to free up more time for Theon.
      They had wisely abandoned the Dorne Detour, prematurely killing off Doran in a season premier.
      His big bodyguard Areo Hotah dropped dead from a pen knife in the back.
      The writers should have rewritten S8’s scripts to excise Euron. They could’ve had Euron accidentally shoot himself with a Scorpion bolt. Or better yet, when Euron went into one of his over the top cackling fits, had Theon shut him up forever by firing an arrow into his mouth and out the back of his neck.
      Sorry. I didn’t mean to go on an Anti-Euron rant.

        Quote  Reply

    12. To Ten Bears and others, I’ve posted my vapor ware coming soon placeholder page for 73chickens.com
      Now it’s me and GRRM to see who’s done first…

      About this article, I didn’t realize GOT was Alfie’s first role. I guess it was for many of the cast. He always gave a great performance from day 1 even if they didn’t have anything for him to do!

      “They said ‘we might as well put you in then’,” he laughs. But he didn’t laugh then: he felt “confused, nervous and lost” at first, as the show was his first big acting job.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Tron79:
      To Ten Bears and others, I’ve posted my vapor ware coming soon placeholder page for 73chickens.com
      Now it’s me and GRRM to see who’s done first…
      ***

      – I’ve bookmarked 73chickens.com in my “Favorite Places.” 😋 I’ll be checking in periodically for updates.

      – Love the image you chose for the placeholder web page!

      – Tron79 vs. GRRM to see who’s done first? I’d bet the farm on Tron.
      (If the results are published like horse racing charts in the Sports section of the newspaper, I’d expect to see next to “GRRM” the abbreviation “DNF.”)

      – What is “vaper ware”? Is that where you go to register a website or domain name?

      – I would imagine the site you use to register has an interactive web page or online “chat” to make sure you select an available name for your proposed website. E.g..

      Representative: “What will be the name of your .com home page?”

      Tron79: “Think I’ll take ‘2Chickens’.”

      Representative: “Sorry, that’s already taken. Please select another.”

      Tron79: “I’m going to have to use “EveryF*ckingChickeninThisRoom.com.”

      Representative: “Seriously? That was snatched up five seconds after the episode ended.”

      Tron79: “Alright then. 73chickens.com.”

      (Sorry… 😒)

        Quote  Reply

    14. Tron79: Now it’s me and GRRM to see who’s done first…

      If you get it done before 2036, you’re golden 😉

      I’ll also be bookmarking the site!

        Quote  Reply

    15. Ten Bears,

      “Vapor Ware”…. ancient term used by us Computer Salespeople years ago referring to software that never materialized… Software companies would come in all the time showing us their latest demos promising that the software would be out sometime “soon”. It was in Alpha or Beta, or whatever…Promise anything you want with words…just air….. hence…Vapor Ware…

      Or as Sandor would say… “You’re a talker”

        Quote  Reply

    16. Adrianacandle: If you get it done before 2036, you’re golden

      I’ll also be bookmarking the site!

      Thanks!! I do plan to actually write it. But I need to use my old excel spreadsheet first with my own scoring to see how it works and tweak it. I’m thinking now it will be out of a possible 200 points with the categories I listed in the other post. You can weight the categories how ever many points you wish depending on what you value for your own enjoyment, but it still has to add up to 200. I’ll give three optional categories, so Ten Bears and others can put things in like Retrograde Downgrading. I do have to limit the optional categories though to keep the programming easier. You will have a choice of whether your optional category adds points or subtracts points. I’m thinking the “problems” category will be up to a minus 100 points. The problems really do affect alot of people’s enjoyment of the episode, so even though I want to stay as positive as possible, I think it’s realistic that problems can damage your personal ranking significantly. I will tweak the scoring as I re-watch the first couple of episodes.

      The problem is that it probably needs a mobile app and I’ve never written one! But part of this adventure for me is the experience of doing it. I have played with a couple of mobile app development platforms, but I’m thinking to develop for a website that also has a mobile version, but not an app…As I told you, I did a prototype for a computer game years and years ago, and even though we didn’t sell it (we came close), the experience of doing it was really valuable and I don’t regret spending the time and the money way back when.

      Anyway, it will be fun, and I hope GRRM beats me though! 2036 is unthinkable!! I’m hoping to at least get TWOW by the end of 2020, so I guess I’m shooting for at least my first version of the site by then if not sooner… I can’t plan too much. Part of my problem with the computer game project is we tried to make it too perfect and took a year too long. By that time, too much competition was out and we lost our window….

      Also, Mr. Derp said it depends on your mood sometimes on how you much you like the episode, so I may have to have a mood field, and perhaps allow you to average out your scores by mood or something if you do multiple re-watches and score them again… not sure on that one… but I can see Depressed, very sad, sad, OK, pretty good, very good, very excited, manic. Or something like that..not sure yet, but that will be a bonus feature! Have to get the nuts and bolts first.
      Hopefully this won’t be all vaporware, but the first step is to use my excel sheet and get to my re-watch and see how it works…

        Quote  Reply

    17. Tron79: Thanks!! I do plan to actually write it. But I need to use my old excel spreadsheet first with my own scoring to see how it works and tweak it. I’m thinking now it will be out of a possible 200 points with the categories I listed in the other post. You can weight the categories how ever many points you wish depending on what you value for your own enjoyment, but it still has to add up to 200. I’ll give three optional categories, so Ten Bears and others can put things in like Retrograde Downgrading. I do have to limit the optional categories though to keep the programming easier. You will have a choice of whether your optional category adds points or subtracts points. I’m thinking the “problems” category will be up to a minus 100 points. The problems really do affect alot of people’s enjoyment of the episode, so even though I want to stay as positive as possible, I think it’s realistic that problems can damage your personal ranking significantly. I will tweak the scoring as I re-watch the first couple of episodes.

      The problem is that it probably needs a mobile app and I’ve never written one! But part of this adventure for me is the experience of doing it. I have played with a couple of mobile app development platforms, but I’m thinking to develop for a website that also has a mobile version, but not an app…As I told you, I did a prototype for a computer game years and years ago, and even though we didn’t sell it (we came close), the experience of doing it was really valuable and I don’t regret spending the time and the money way back when.

      Whenever you’ve talked about your programming history, I’ve really enjoyed it! I have a limited history with (trying to) program (my first programming language was HTML and Java to build my Sailormoon fansites as a kid) but not nearly as extensive as building an entire computer game. Just websites and teeny tiny apps, I’m pretty horrible at it though.

      But I’m really really curious about that game!

      I think Objective C is needed for iOS apps, is that right? And you develop apps in Xcode? I remember starting to learn Objective C because my dad was pushing me too but just as I’m super bad at math, I’m worse at programming.

      I am really really interested in seeing this whenever you write this! It’s a really thoughtful way to assess and evaluate episodes!

      I think your mood field sounds like an excellent addition because mood really does impact how one evaluates what they experience around them (like if I just found out
      something devastating, a chocolate chip muffin sort of tastes like sawdust suddenly).

      Anyway, it will be fun, and I hope GRRM beats me though! 2036 is unthinkable!! I’m hoping to at least get TWOW by the end of 2020, so I guess I’m shooting for at least my first version of the site by then if not sooner…

      About TWOW, I hope so too! But I’ve been burned by promises before 😢

      Either way, I am 10000000% confident you’ll be faster than GRRM 😉

        Quote  Reply

    18. Tron79,

      Geez, I didn’t mean to complicate this episode scoring project by introducing concepts like retrospective or retroactive episode downgrading.

      Considering an episode may be written and directed by people who had no control over the writing and directing of episodes years later, would it be better to request up front that “voters” confine their scoring to how they felt about an episode when they first saw it?

        Quote  Reply

    19. Ten Bears,

      Well, my “problems” score would cover your retrograde downgrading anyway. You could just increase your problems score… But I do like the idea of adding at least a few custom categories. I can think of most things that I think go into it, but everyone is different, so I like the idea of adding your own categories. The total still has to add up to 200 so you weight the categories the way you think is best for your liking. You would rate music way down…I would rate it way high (for example). I might limit the number of custom categories though, so my screen programming design is easier.

      Yeah, I see what you’re saying about remembering how you felt when you first watched it, but for me, I don’t think I could remember! I’ve done so many re-watches. I’m going to have to say how I feel now. The reality is I’ve seen all 73 so I may be influenced by what comes later, but I probably wouldn’t penalize the older episodes for something that happened in season 7 or 8. I think the earlier episodes were probably truer to the character (like Jaime’s bath scene). So I would downgrade the later episode that forgot about the character and had lines that sounded like they came from someone else. Anyway, I’m a good talker! I do actually have to sit down and write it, but first I have to start another re-watch and use my Excel sheet. Tomorrow I shall begin!

        Quote  Reply

    20. Tron79,

      Correction/Supplement to my 5:21 pm reply

      I wrote:
      Tron79 vs. GRRM to see who’s done first? I’d bet the farm on Tron.
      (If the results are published like horse racing charts in the Sports section of the newspaper, I’d expect to see next to “GRRM” the abbreviation “DNF.”)”

      ——

      DNF is the abbreviation for “Did Not Finish.” If a racehorse broke down, went off stride, fell too far behind to bother continuing, or just lost interest – and for whatever reason never crossed the Finish Line, that result would show up in the horse’s record as a DNF.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Correction/Supplement to my 5:21 pm reply

      I wrote:“Tron79 vs. GRRM to see who’s done first? I’d bet the farm on Tron.
      (If the results are published like horse racing charts in the Sports section of the newspaper, I’d expect to see next to “GRRM” the abbreviation “DNF.”)”

      ——

      DNF is the abbreviation for “Did Not Finish.” If a racehorse broke down, went off stride, fell too far behind to bother continuing, or just lost interest –and for whatever reason never crossed the Finish Line, that result would show up in the horse’s record as a DNF.

      Aha! I should have known that. My Uncle Ed was a pro gambler (well he was a plumber, but spent all his time at the track). I used to hang out with him on our trips to Baltimore growing up. I remember getting him a race horse picker electronics thing from Sharper Image. Don’t remember DNF…

      Oh, and you reminded me I actually did some major programming for Turfway Park in Kentucky way back when in my past life. I worked on their betting system reporting to figure out everyone’s piece of the action. DNF didn’t come up for those. However, I felt like i might be listed as DNF a few times. I knew very little about betting, but said I would do it anyway! (I needed the money). Luckily they explained to me how things were supposed to calculate!

        Quote  Reply

    22. Tron79,

      Just so you know, the retroactive effect works the other way too. I happened to be rewatching the first few Ygritte & Jon episodes and I couldn’t help but be positively influenced by the patient development of their romance, especially in comparison to the way the Dany & Jon “romance” was handled.
      And I have to admit: Knowing now that Rose and Kit fell in love during the filming of those scenes, and eventually married, adds to my enjoyment on rewatch.
      Finally, I draw parallels from little details that probably weren’t intended at the time: I was rewatching the very first Ygritte & Jon scene, when Jon is poised to execute Ygritte but hesitates, and she demands: “Do it! Do it, bastard!” (He can’t and doesn’t.)
      Another scene flashed through my mind involving a different character imploring another to “Do it! Do it!” and kill him. (She won’t and doesn’t.)

        Quote  Reply

    23. Tron79,

      I was never a horse racing aficionado and never liked gambling. Growing up, my older brother would drag me to the racetrack. Since the races themselves and the wagering didn’t interest me, I’d spend my time eating ice cream and reading the Daily Racing Form. (Those racetracks had delicious ice cream. 🍦)

      For some reason, I would get perverse pleasure from seeing racing results in the newspaper in which a long shot came in first, and the odds-on favorite was listed as DNF.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Just so you know, the retroactive effect works the other way too. I happened to be rewatching the first few Ygritte & Jon episodes and I couldn’t help but be positively influenced by the patient development of their romance, especially in comparison to the way the Dany & Jon “romance” was handled. And I have to admit: Knowing now that Rose and Kit fell in love during the filming of those scenes, and eventually married, adds to my enjoyment on rewatch. Finally, I draw parallels from little details that probably weren’t intended at the time: I was rewatching the very first Ygritte & Jon scene, when Jon is poised to execute Ygritte but hesitates, and she demands: “Do it! Do it, bastard!” (He can’t and doesn’t.) Another scene flashed through my mind involving a different character imploring another to “Do it! Do it!” and kill him. (She won’t and doesn’t.)

      I agree about watching Kit and Rose.
      And Rose is doing well for herself post GOT
      I enjoyed watching her in The Good Fight until the show went too political for me.

      I Guess I will go ahead and ask. It sounds like I should remember the quote you mentioned but who said the do it do it and kill him line. I’m probably going to kick myself. The ice cream sounds much better than worrying about the race.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Ten Bears,

      I happened to be rewatching the first few Ygritte & Jon episodes and I couldn’t help but be positively influenced by the patient development of their romance, especially in comparison to the way the Dany & Jon “romance” was handled.

      probably the biggest issue I had with the show at the end was the total lack of any chemistry between Dany and Jon, and perhaps because of how well those first episodes of Ygritte and Jon – that took seasons to cover (curious how many) whereas we were supposed to pick up on their romance after one. Im not blaming the actors, but the poor writing and condensed time frame , if it was longer a romance that could have felt more believable (whats funny is that I got the chemistry between Sam and Gilly in a short space of time, so maybe thats not it)

        Quote  Reply

    26. “Vapor Ware”…. ancient term used by us Computer Salespeople years ago referring to software that never materialized… Software companies would come in all the time showing us their latest demos promising that the software would be out sometime “soon”. It was in Alpha or Beta, or whatever…Promise anything you want with words…just air….. hence…Vapor Ware…

      Tron, thanks for the computer history lesson – had no idea where that term came from! I didn’t really get into computers till around 2000, so Im interested now in a lot of the stuff happening before that.

        Quote  Reply

    27. I’m thinking now it will be out of a possible 200 points with the categories I listed in the other post. You can weight the categories how ever many points you wish depending on what you value for your own enjoyment, but it still has to add up to 200. I’ll give three optional categories, so Ten Bears and others can put things in like Retrograde Downgrading. I do have to limit the optional categories though to keep the programming easier. You will have a choice of whether your optional category adds points or subtracts points. I’m thinking the “problems” category will be up to a minus 100 points. The problems really do affect alot of people’s enjoyment of the episode, so even though I want to stay as positive as possible, I think it’s realistic that problems can damage your personal ranking significantly. I will tweak the scoring as I re-watch the first couple of episodes.

      Oh I love this idea and agree this would be a great way to rate episodes. I did not see the post with the categories, can you repost that? (and I really hope you put this together)

        Quote  Reply

    28. Tron79,

      Guess I will go ahead and ask. It sounds like I should remember the quote you mentioned but who said the do it do it and kill him line. I’m probably going to kick myself…”

      ———
      Sorry. I thought you’d remember that quote.
      Pre-Kick Hint: Remember where the heart is.

      “Do it! Do it!”
      at 3:16

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hNGgcd4U-c

      ——

        Quote  Reply

    29. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Guess I will go ahead and ask. It sounds like I should remember the quote you mentioned but who said the do it do it and kill him line. I’m probably going to kick myself…”

      ———
      Sorry. I thought you’d remember that quote.
      Pre-Kick Hint: Remember where the heart is.

      “Do it! Do it!”
      at 3:16

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hNGgcd4U-c

      ——

      AAHHH!!! (I didn’t have to watch the clip once you said where the heart is….)

        Quote  Reply

    30. ash:
      I’m thinking now it will be out of a possible 200 points with the categories I listed in the other post. You can weight the categories how ever many points you wish depending on what you value for your own enjoyment, but it still has to add up to 200. I’ll give three optional categories, so Ten Bears and others can put things in like Retrograde Downgrading. I do have to limit the optional categories though to keep the programming easier. You will have a choice of whether your optional category adds points or subtracts points. I’m thinking the “problems” category will be up to a minus 100 points. The problems really do affect alot of people’s enjoyment of the episode, so even though I want to stay as positive as possible, I think it’s realistic that problems can damage your personal ranking significantly. I will tweak the scoring as I re-watch the first couple of episodes.

      Oh I love this idea and agree this would be a great way to rate episodes.I did not see the post with the categories, can you repost that? (and I really hope you put this together)

      Thanks Ash! I will paste below. BTW, if you haven’t binged “Halt and Catch Fire”, it’s a pretty good look at what things were like back in the early days. But I never met anyone as incredible as the girl in that show! Loved the show though. And I would have definitely played her game!!

      So, you can weight these categories with more points for the ones that are more important to your own personal enjoyment. And I will probably have 3 optional categories that you can put in anything you want (things I didn’t think of).

      The weighting is the way I have my Excel sheet for myself now. I might tweak these after watching a couple of episodes today to see how it feels. I also realized I will need to come up with a tie breaker system for episodes with the same score. Some can be automatic and look at head to head scores of the categories you rated the highest. But I may need an interactive screen if the scores still match. Of course, if you just say everything is brilliant they would all be #1, so that would be tough!!! So, I may have to make it more than 200 points though… This one added up to 225. I’m still experimenting. It may be some random total, but I think everyone’s should add up to the same random total I come up with so it’s easier to compare scores… 225 looks like the random total at the moment…

      You just finished re-watching the episode. Record your reactions

      Emotional reaction: I absolutely loved this episode!!! 40 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Impact of Surprises: OMG, I didn’t see that coming. 20 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Favorite Character’s impact: This was a tremendous episode for my favorite character(s) 30 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Music: Ramin Djawadi’s musical score blew me away this episode and was a perfect compliment to the action. 20 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Character bonding: This episode had great scenes that showed tremendous chemistry between characters. 20 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Soliloquies and Duets: This episode had some great character speeches or scenes where two characters had amazing dialogue together. 10 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Visuals: I’ve never seen anything like this done on TV before. The visual impact was incredible. (VFX, scenes that took a tremendous amount of work by the crew, etc) 20 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Secondary Character: There was a secondary character who I loved in this episode who was a scene stealer. 5 is totally agree and 0 is totally disagree

      Director:The director of this episode made tremendous choices (or showed great artistry, mastery of POV, avoided battle fatigue, etc.) 20 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree

      Etched in My Brain: There were scenes in this episode that I will never forget and will be etched in my brain forever. 30 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree

      Heart: There were scenes in this episode that made me cry (or want to cry) 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree

      Suspense: I felt extremely anxious and scared watching this episode. 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree

      Problems: There were scenes in this episode that made no sense at all or there were scenes that were too objectionable to be considered entertainment
      Deduct -100 for totally agree and 0 for totally disagree

        Quote  Reply

    31. ah ok. Really like the categories and think they cover the gist of reactions. Some of them assume you have seen the episode for the first time (esp the surprise moments, which can be influenced by whether or not I read the book, but since its just my own rating, and not comparing with others, probably doesn’t matter). I can probably think back to how I felt about the first watch, or is it the point that I am looking after several (seasons 2,4,6) or a couple (season 7,8)

        Quote  Reply

    32. Suspense: I felt extremely anxious and scared watching this episode. 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree depending on ones reaction to terror , or danger to a fave character, I could see me switching that around. same reason why I might read the end of a book to see if I really really want to continue…..

        Quote  Reply

    33. Ignore the above, didn’t get the edit done in time

      Suspense: I felt extremely anxious and scared watching this episode. 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree depending on ones reaction to terror

      Actually depending on how much one likes to be in suspense or mind being really anxious about a fav character, you can turn that around. Im not a fan – which is why I will stop reading a section of the book with a deep need to know how this ends, and will spoil it by reading the back. Usually that is enough to get me to continue to read. Reason why Im not a fan of mysteries, and why I don’t happen to mind spoilers 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    34. Tron79,

      This draft Scoring System looks really good. Whenever you’re ready, might you want to post it in the Forum section? Or I can do it if you want.

      Just thinking ahead… how would dedicated fans learn about the Scoring and make their way to 73chickens.com?

        Quote  Reply

    35. Tron79,

      Just checked out the placeholder!! Nice work!! If you find yourself needing a hand with the graphics side of things to take some of the load off, I’m a graphic artist and can offer my assistance — but it looks like you have the graphics nicely handled anyway based on the placeholder! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    36. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      Just checked out the placeholder!! Nice work!! If you find yourself needing a hand with the graphics side of things to take some of the load off, I’m a graphic artist and can offer my assistance — but it looks like you have the graphics nicely handled anyway based on the placeholder!

      That would be super awesome!! My family flunks games like Pictionary. We can’t tell one of our stick figures from the other. I’m not sure why we even play that game…

        Quote  Reply

    37. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      This draft Scoring System looks really good. Whenever you’re ready, might you want to post it in the Forum section? Or I can do it if you want.

      Just thinking ahead… how would dedicated fans learn about the Scoring and make their way to 73chickens.com?

      Yeah, so far I’ve had no luck in getting activated in the forum. I’ve tried a bunch. I’m not too worried about people finding it. I’m more worried about being a DNF! But I will just release the final categories and what I used for scoring once I experiment. Anyone can honestly do it on a google sheets or on an excel sheet, but it will be fun to see it online and compare with the community and have it do alot for you to show you the stats. I want to put in a good comment discussion section too so you can add comments/reviews about why you scored each episode the way you did and have others be able to reply. But we shall see. I have to find the right programming platform and hopefully there are already plugins/libraries I can use for some of the comments/social media posting things so I don’t have to “recreate the wheel” Not break the wheel…

        Quote  Reply

    38. ash:
      Ignore the above, didn’t get the edit done in time

      Suspense: I felt extremely anxious and scared watching this episode. 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree depending on ones reaction to terror

      Actually depending on how much one likes to be in suspense or mind being really anxious about a fav character, you can turn that around. Im not a fan – which is why I will stop reading a section of the book with a deep need to know how this ends, and will spoil it by reading the back.Usually that is enough to get me to continue to read. Reason why Im not a fan of mysteries, and why I don’t happen to mind spoilers

      I do remember some of how I felt the first time seeing it (for things like being scared and anxious). I remember how I felt during the leadup to “The Long Night” thinking everyone was going to die.

      Even if I read the books first, I would have been surprised at the way the show did the Red Wedding, because it’s even worse than the book Red Wedding!! I’ll put a book spoiler tag in anyway for those who mind…

      Robb’s wife wasn’t at the red wedding in the book, so as bad as the Red Wedding was in the book, there wasn’t a nightmare scene of a Frey repeatedly stabbing a pregnant mom and her unborn child. Ugg…

        Quote  Reply

    39. Attempted Re-Post of Reply to Tron79 re: Tiebreakers

      Tron79 wrote: “…I also realized I will need to come up with a tie breaker system for episodes with the same score. Some can be automatic and look at head to head scores of the categories you rated the highest. But I may need an interactive screen if the scores still match.”

      ———-
      Tiebreakers? Can’t be any more esoteric than those used by the NFL to determine wild card entries for the playoffs among teams finishing the regular season with the same record, or to determine order of selection in the NFL Draft among teams with identical records after the playoffs end.

      Those NFL tiebreakers made my head spin…
      As I recall, there were times in the final week of the season that a team would try to run up the score in the final minutes of a meaningless game that was already a lopsided rout, i.e., the outcome was no longer in doubt – just in case it became necessary to resort to one of the last tiebreakers: comparison of total points scored by the two teams.
      (As a matter of custom and sportsmanship, if your team is ahead, say, 45-0 in the final minutes of a game, your quarterback is expected to bend the knee – I mean take a knee – and let the clock run out instead of trying to tack on more points.)*
      * Apologies for shameless reference to GoT lingo.

      I suppose you could designate in advance one of the scoring categories (e.g., “Emotional Reaction” or “Etched in My Brain”) as a “superfactor” to use as the tiebreaker if two episodes wound up with the same point total.

      Or, like the NFL uses “Strength of Schedule” as one of the tiebreakers (comparing the Won-Lost records of each tied team’s opponents), perhaps the scores of the preceding and succeeding episodes, or the average score of all episodes in that season, could be considered as one of the tiebreakers.
      That’s predicated on the assumption that it’s more difficult to achieve a good score if the episode was sandwiched between two mediocre episodes, or that the perception of an episode would be negatively influenced if the season as a whole wasn’t well received.
      Then again, that could cut both ways: A really good episode would stand out more and maybe look better by comparison, if surrounded by middling episodes. Or, the merits of that really good episode might have been obscured by the mediocre episodes before and after it. (F*ck. I don’t know. 😖 I’d delete this entire paragraph if I could.)

      – I know what I would use as (my) tiebreakers for GoT episodes finishing with the same numerical total on the Tron Scorecard ™️ ©️:

      – 1st Tiebreaker: How many “high thread-count” interpersonal scenes were in each episode?
      – 2nd Tiebreaker: Was anyone killed by Sandor or Arya in the episode? If the answer is “yes” as to one of the episodes, that episode wins. If “yes” or “no” as to both episodes, then go to….
      – 3rd Tiebreaker: Did Hot Pie appear? If “yes” or “no” in both episodes, then go to…
      – 4th Tiebreaker: Did the Hound say “F*ck the [King, Queen, Kingsguard, or City]”?…
      – 5th Tiebreaker: Total word count of dialogue in the episode. (This could just be my preference. For instance, I liked dialogue-rich scenes of Tyrion vs. Janos Slynt and Tyrion vs. Lancel in S2, more than Tyrion just walking around the ruins of KL saying nothing for several minutes in S8.)

      ™️ Tron79 (2020)
      ©️ 73chickens.com (2020)

        Quote  Reply

    40. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      Just checked out the placeholder!! Nice work!! If you find yourself needing a hand with the graphics side of things to take some of the load off, I’m a graphic artist and can offer my assistance….

      Ooh! Ooh! Can you use your Fusion 360 CNC laser and cobalt blue color for this?

        Quote  Reply

    41. Ten Bears,

      Love your tiebreakers!!!

      I love the random “Did Hot Pie appear” tie breaker…

      How many episodes did the Hound say “F*k the king”? It seems like he said that alot… He definitely said it prior to ordering chicken, so that one I have to use!!

      Yeah, I was thinking a similar thing about the NFL. It gets really complex. I wouldn’t doubt the run-up the score tie breaker soon. It’s getting that way with no hitting allowed in the NFL. On my daughter’s soccer team I ran the scoreboard a few times, and they wouldn’t let me update the score if a team was more than 5 goals ahead!! I could only update it if the losing team caught up to within 5 goals. And she was 17 I think when she was on that team! The world was getting weird on me before my eyes.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Tron79: That would be super awesome!!My family flunks games like Pictionary.We can’t tell one of our stick figures from the other. I’m not sure why we even play that game…

      Pictionary is way harder than it looks!

      And great! If you find a need for me, just shoot me an email! 🙂

      Ten Bears: Ooh! Ooh! Can you use your Fusion 360 CNC laser and cobalt blue color for this?

      YES.

      73 Fusion 360-designed CNC cut laser etched cobalt blue acrylic chickens. Stuck together with magnets.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Tron79,

      P.S. In retrospect, I feel bad for (sarcastically) using racehorse terminology* to insinuate that GRRM wouldn’t finish the books, and history would record GRRM as a “DNF”, e.g., he went off-stride, he fell too far behind to bother continuing to write, or he just lost interest and gave up.

      It was a cheap shot on my part. He should be remembered in posterity for what he did accomplish [5 bestsellers + worldwide phenomenon based the fictional universe he created], rather than for what he didn’t.
      ———
      * My 1/17/20, 9:36 pm comment stated: “DNF is the abbreviation for “Did Not Finish.” If a racehorse broke down, went off stride, fell too far behind to bother continuing, or just lost interest – and for whatever reason never crossed the Finish Line, that result would show up in the horse’s record as a DNF.”

        Quote  Reply

    44. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      P.S. In retrospect, I feel bad for (sarcastically) using racehorse terminology* to insinuate thatGRRM wouldn’t finish the books, and history would record GRRM as a “DNF”, e.g., he went off-stride, he fell too far behind to bother continuing to write, or he just lost interest and gave up.

      It was a cheap shot on my part. He should be remembered in posterity for what he did accomplish [5 bestsellers + worldwide phenomenon based the fictional universe he created], rather than for what he didn’t.
      ———
      * My 1/17/20, 9:36 pm comment stated: “DNF is the abbreviation for “Did Not Finish.” If a racehorse broke down, went off stride, fell too far behind to bother continuing, or just lost interest – and for whatever reason never crossed the Finish Line, that result would show up in the horse’s record as a DNF.”

      I think he will finish TWOW. But I’m not sure if it will only take one more book after that to finish the story. I’ve said this before but I estimate about 3000 or so pages to go with his current writing style and that’s really 3 more books unless the publishers agree with printing 1500 pages in one book which I think was one of the reasons he had to split AFFC and ADWD. Even if he only gets TWOW done I’ll be thrilled to read it. At least we have the show as an ending. It may not be the ending some would have wanted but at least it is an ending. And we know that the “broad strokes” should be similar.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Tron79,

      “How many episodes did the Hound say “F*k the king”? It seems like he said that alot… He definitely said it prior to ordering chicken, so that one I have to use!!”

      I threw that in off the top of my head, because as I recall Sandor said “F*ck the King” or a variation of it:
      – (1) During the Battle of the Blackwater, rejecting Tyrion’s demand to go back out and continue fighting (preceded by “Eat sh*t, dwarf”, I think); and
      – (2) In S3 when Arya mistakenly thought Sandor was taking her back to Joffrey and the Queen in KL; and
      – (3) In S4e1 when Polliver wouldn’t shut up about wearing “the King’s colors” and that his goon squad could rape, pillage and torture with impunity because “nobody’s standing in his [Joffrey’s] way, so no one’s standing in ours.”
      (As you observed, this was Sandor’s definitive “F*ck the King” declaration.)
      – (4) Sandor may have recited “F*ck the King” in the encounter with Rorge in S4e7; Rorge said “there’s a price on your head” and Sandor assumed it was because he’d said “F*ck the King,” but Rorge explained the bounty was for killing Lannister soldiers. (Rorge’s day went downhill quickly after that. 🗡👸🏻😊)

        Quote  Reply

    46. Tron79,

      I’m getting ahead of myself here: In connection with my proposed “superfactor” of high thread-count scenes, I went back over S4e7 “Mockingbird” and isolated six high thread-count scenes* totaling nearly 31 minutes out of the episode’s run time of 51 minutes:

      + Tyrion & Bronn 4:28
      + Tyrion & Oberyn 4:59
      + Brienne, Pod & Hot Pie 5:16
      + Arya, Sandor, dying farmer, Rorge 4:44
      + Sandor & Arya 3:12
      + Sansa, Robyn, LF, Lysa 8:19
      = Six scenes = 30:58

      * Subject to re-watch and possible inclusion of:
      Jaime & Tyrion; and Jon & NW officers.

      I would have embedded links to those six scenes, except the Lord of Light’s algorithms would then surely intercept this comment and confine it in Moderation Purgatory, divert it to “That Page Not Found” Oblivion, or cause it to disintegrate into the ether (the cyber-equivalent of the nothingness that Jon and Beric described when Mel asked where they went after they died).

        Quote  Reply

    47. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      I’m getting ahead of myself here: In connection with my proposed “superfactor” of high thread-count scenes, I went back over S4e7 “Mockingbird” and isolated six high thread-count scenes* totaling nearly 31 minutes out of the episode’s run time of 51 minutes:

      + Tyrion & Bronn 4:28
      + Tyrion & Oberyn 4:59
      + Brienne, Pod & Hot Pie 5:16
      + Arya, Sandor, dying farmer, Rorge 4:44
      + Sandor & Arya 3:12
      + Sansa, Robyn, LF, Lysa 8:19 = Six scenes = 30:58

      * Subject to re-watch and possible inclusion of:Jaime & Tyrion; andJon & NW officers.

      I would have embedded links to those six scenes, except the Lord of Light’s algorithms would then surely intercept this comment and confine it in Moderation Purgatory, divert it to “That Page Not Found” Oblivion, or cause it to disintegrate into the ether (the cyber-equivalent of the nothingness that Jon and Beric described when Mel asked where they went after they died).

      Ok. You’re hired to go through each episode and tally up the thread count totals!
      However you made me think about the guy at the suit store. I made the mistake of talking about needing a new suit for my son’s wedding a few months ago. This person I know overheard me talking and he leaned in and took over the conversation. He insisted I had to see his “guy”. He would fix me up. I thought that meant he might give me a good deal Well I did see his guy and his guy definitely knew his thread counts. But his guy cost me lots of extra money!!!! But I did look pretty sharp I have to say. But beware folks who insist you must see his guy. The thread count category is a good example of how people differ on what they find important for their enjoyment. I wouldn’t rate it as highly as you but we will be in agreement for high weighting of favorite character.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Tron79,

      Al
      Ten Bears,

      Also you bring up something I was thinking about. I think you use Mockingbird as your control episode when figuring out your weighting. You know that is your favorite so if that doesn’t get a top score you know you’re weighting has a problem. I might even recommend that method to have a control episode to adjust your weightings before beginning rating all 73 episodes using the same factors. Pick your least favorite and your favorite as your control and go from there!

        Quote  Reply

    49. Tron79: I think he will finish TWOW. But I’m not sure if it will only take one more book after that to finish the story. I’ve said this before but I estimate about 3000 or so pages to go with his current writing style and that’s really 3 more books… Even if he only gets TWOW done I’ll be thrilled to read it. At least we have the show as an ending. It may not be the ending some would have wanted but at least it is an ending. And we know that the “broad strokes” should be similar.

      I am NOT bashing Big G when I say I doubt he will ever finish TWOW.

      – Especially since he’s aware the book is long overdue and the show has already supplied an ending, it’s understandable that every day he wakes up determined to make headway, but by the time evening rolls around and he hasn’t made any progress because of one distraction or another, he goes to bed assuring himself he’ll start fresh the next day. And in this manner days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, and months turn into years.

      – I doubt threats of self-punishment will motivate him. He recently (and half-jokingly?) commented that he’s scheduled to appear at some convention in New Zealand later this year, I think, and if he’s not done by then he will confine himself to some sulfuric island or something.

      He shouldn’t even have to worry about showing up without completing TWOW. If he wants to go to the convention he should be able to look forward to going and enjoy attending with no strings attached.

      – From the standpoint of quality of life, with the passage of time as one ages comes the ever-increasing awareness that there are only a finite number of years remaining to enjoy one’s life. It would be a shame if after all he’s accomplished, and the quarter century he’s already devoted to ASOIAF, he now has to spend his time under constant stress. He deserves to rest on his laurels, take a victory lap, and enjoy his fame and fortune. If that means writing Targaryean histories, screening movies at his theater in New Mexico, visiting the Hollywood set of “The Orville,” attending conventions, reading and recommending other authors’ works, blogging about the Hugos, or just hanging out drinking beer, scarfing hot dogs and watching Jets and Giants football games, so be it.

      – I get the impression that to him, finishing the books is no longer a labor of love for him. It’s just… labor. Like cleaning out a cluttered garage, or climbing up on a roof to clear out leaves and crud from gutters, it’s all too tempting to find an excuse to put it off for another time, or prioritize other tasks. (*TB peers into walk-in closet; sees mounds of papers, bags and boxes; reminds self of long-overdue, long-delayed closet excavation project – then shuts closet door .)

      • As a pre-books reader, just going by the passage of time since the last book came out and what’s transpired since then, it would seem to an objective observer that the odds the book series will ever be concluded has dwindled to close to 0%:

      – I’ve heard or read about several self-imposed deadlines that have come and gone since the last book was released, along with publicly announced commitment(s) to devote himself to writing the books with no target date for their completion other than they’ll be done when they’re done.

      – Also, it’s my understanding that even the TWOW sample chapters that have been released were actually written many years ago, and some had been intended for inclusion in the last book.

      – In recent print interviews about other projects, GRRM has usually added the qualification that he’s also working on writing TWOW, as if to preempt whinging by inpatient readers that he should “finish the damn books.”

      – I don’t know if the end of the TV series has eliminated any sense of urgency to get the books done, or if taking the pressure off him might actually free his mind to finish writing the books. Some critics have even suggested that the “divisive” manner in which the last two seasons concluded the TV show might actually help spur GRRM to write his conclusion to his story. Or, it might just make him want to wash his hands of the whole thing. Who knows.

      • I hope I’m wrong and that GRRM is “in the zone” and furiously banging away on his keyboard without coming up for air. Maybe GRRM and his publisher have imposed a quarantine on further updates until TWOW is actually finished and a definite release date can be announced.

      – Is there any reliable information that suggests GRRM has been making serious progress?

      • Cynicism may be my default setting. Perhaps I’m only looking for reasons why it’s doubtful he’ll ever finish the books, while overlooking reasons for optimism. With that in mind….

      • Here’s my completely unfounded, totally uninformed, admittedly outlandish tinfoil prediction:
      – The first game of the 2020 NFL football season is tentatively scheduled for September 10, 2020. (Exact time yet to be determined; the game will be hosted by this season’s Super Bowl champion.)
      – If TWOW is not released by kickoff of that game on September 10, 2020, it never will be.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Ten Bears,

      Well I already have my pick in for the first day of winter 2020. (Dec 21)

      You also gave me another idea for a game to rescue grrm to get him out of his cabin surrounded by sulfuric acid. Perhaps to win you have to give him plot ideas to help him out. Figure out what to do with FAegon for example which might add a stepping stone in the lake. Eventually you could build a bridge to get him to safety. But don’t get me started, I already have one project and I might get distracted. Someone else needs to write that one. I’d love to play.

      From reading the book I got the impression that he emmerses himself in certain tangents. The show’s 3ER was prophetic for GRRM that it is beautiful under the sea but if you stay too long you will drown. GRRM loves his pirates. I love reading his descriptions of the pirates. He loves his characters and perhaps loves them too much. My guess is that he writes too much that he can’t end up using. But I’m betting on at least TWOW.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Jack Bauer 24:
      Congrats to GoT for winning Best Drama at the ACE Eddie awards last night! Well deserved.

      Hey! Thanks for the update, Jack!
      When you have a chance, can you put on your weirwood goggles and tell me where I put the appointment card for my next dentist visit?

        Quote  Reply

    52. Tron79,

      I like that idea a lot! and it will be interesting to see, even in epidoses I don’t like, I think I’ll see some threads that are not too frayed and can be enjoyable (with the exception of LF sexposition that went on too long, Dany’s wedding night – I instantly fast forward those)

        Quote  Reply

    53. ash,

      Thanks! Hopefully I won’t be like grrm and get distracted by Targs instead of finishing my scoring site. I just had about 20 thoughts about the GRRM sulfuric acid game. You would have to goto Meereen and get Finally get Dany out of Meereen somehow. Get Arya out of Braavos. Get Sansa out of the Vale. And of course battle with bosses in each location to eventually get grrm across the sulfuric acid lake on his quest to finish TWOW. I’m definitely not writing that one though. Please someone else write it and don’t make it a browser game! Make it a real game.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Tron79,

      “The show’s 3ER was prophetic for GRRM that it is beautiful under the sea but if you stay too long you will drown.”

      That warning was another one of the show’s apparent foreshadowings that I thought would presage a cool twist – but ultimately went nowhere.

      For instance, from Bran’s parting words to Benjen, and because (as Meera reminded Bran) his comrades had died because it was crucial that he should live, I figured Bran would have to use his time-tripping powers to find clues from the past to help defeat the WWs.

      From 3ER’s warning (along with Jojen’s earlier warning that warging for too long could trap him inside Summer); and Bran’s experiences of the dangers of “joyriding” (NK’s Night Club wrist stamp) and unwittingly creating a past + present time loop (frying brain of young Wyllis > future Hodor) – I thought the show was setting up a dilemma for Bran. Something like…

      – Aware of the urgency of finding critical information in the past, Bran would soon realize during his trip that he would have to “stay too long” under the metaphorical sea in order to obtain the information.
      – Present-day Bran would remain in a semi-comatose state, while his consciousness would be stuck in his avatar in the past.* He would either have to (a) transmit that critical information from the past via a time loop to the present, or (b) find a way to bury it in the past so it would be discovered in some artifact unearthed in the present.**
      – Either way, I felt it would make use of Bran’s powers, while presenting for him a conflict with significant stakes. I had assumed the build-up and development of Bran’s powers and (incomplete) tutelage under 3ER 1.0 would lead to some important role for Bran in the “Great War.”

      – For me, at least, Bran’s warging + green-seeing superpowers amounted to a big nothingburger in the show. (Repository of “memories” and “stories”? Seriously? That’s it?)

      * Or as some fan theories suggested, Bran would transfer his consciousness into a historical figure like Bran the Builder. (However, I never bought into the Bran = CotF captive/primordial NK theory, though that would be pretty cool.)

      ** This method was used quite elegantly in the 2000 movie

      ”Frequency,” starring Dennis Quaid as the father of a young boy in the 1960s who has to secrete evidence of a never-captured serial killer’s identity in a place where his grown-up son (Jim Caviezel) can find it 30 years in the future. That murder mystery was a subplot to what I thought was a beautiful main story about the father and son relationship, including scenes of Dennis Quaid interacting with his little boy in the past, juxtaposed with scenes of the now-fatherless grown-up son in the future, which also showed how losing his dad at a young age impacted him into adulthood. There are emotionally evocative scenes (including one mirroring the simultaneous young Hodor and present Hodor in S6e5), in which the son in the future watches a message appear on his work table as his long-dead father engraves it in the past.😥 The movie also logically accounts for “time-loop paradoxes” fairly well – sort of like what GoT tried to do with “the past is already written; the ink has already dried” premise.

      Although the movie is 20 years old, I covered this all in spoiler coding so I wouldn’t ruin it for anyone who hasn’t seen it.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Ten Bears,

      I struck a bit of a nerve there! I had similar thoughts about Bran as well. I was quite disappointed on how the show decided to use Bran. I thought there was more to his stare off with Tyrion than thinking that Tyrion would make him King one day. There was a ton they could have done with Bran, and for some reason they decided it was too “fantasy” or magical. I thought Bran would indeed play a role in the past somehow. I thought he was going to be Bran the Builder. I’m sad for Jojen and Meera (well at least Meera is still living). For me, Bran’s best moment was calling out LF before Arya executed him. I thought knowing all of history and being able to record past conversations in his mind was a good super power. He was able to see right through the deceit of those trying to win the game. But they gave up on that power too. It was good that he could confirm Jon’s parentage. But he served no real purpose with the NK at all except as bait. I keep going back to the books, but one of my big reasons for reading the books was to see where GRRM may differ with the show. I figured GRRM must have something more in mind for Bran, and I don’t think the “Others” will be defeated in one episode (as quickly). I could see something like Bran having to go back and sacrifice himself so the NK was never made. Perhaps he has to stay too long with the children 10 thousand years ago to convince them not to plunge the dragonglass into the heart of the human who would later become the NK. I was never one who held the theory that Bran was the NK though. But I will give it to Bran for helping out the Stark family take down LF. That was great.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Ten Bears,

      I can’t write that one… but please someone else write it! I want to play it. It would be a blast to rescue GRRM out of his sulfuric acid nightmare and bring our characters home out of exile from all around westeros and beyond…(out of exile where GRRM left them at the end of ADWD).

        Quote  Reply

    57. Tron79,

      ”…The thread count category is a good example of how people differ on what they find important for their enjoyment. I wouldn’t rate it [S4e7] as highly as you but we will be in agreement for high weighting of favorite character.“

      Well, in all candor, it was only much later that I realized that all of those six scenes were in the same episode. I’m not suggesting rewatching might change your rating.

      You’re right that “people differ on what they find important for their enjoyment.” Except for the very end (Lysa pushed out the Moon Door), that episode didn’t rely on “shockers,” nor did it feature big action sequences or other “spectacles.” I guess I’m partial to one-on-one interpersonal moments that give the actors a chance to shine, like Oberyn’s “I will be your champion” speech to Tyrion.

      And although the scene of Sandor telling Arya how Gregor burned him when he was a boy is only 3:12 long, I’ve made no secret that it is on my short list of personal all-time favorite scenes in all of GoT.

      ——-

        Quote  Reply

    58. Tron79:
      Ten Bears,

      I can’t write that one… but please someone else write it!I want to play it.It would be a blast to rescue GRRM out of his sulfuric acid nightmare and bring our characters home out of exile from all around westeros and beyond…(out of exile where GRRM left them at the end of ADWD).

      Kevin1989 has probably written out every imaginable permutation of every book and show character’s story line. 🤓 I’d invite him to take a crack at rescuing GRRM from his sulfuric acid nightmare and bringing our characters out of exile (where GRRM left them).

      As a pre-book reader, I’d be ill-equipped to take on the challenge. (That’s my excuse.)

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    59. Of course I detested Theon at first, and while he never became a *favorite* of mine…his end was…touching. And yet also somehow kinda fell flat. I reckon because I just saw it coming–“yay, you’re redeemed/forgiven, now time for quick pointless charge and death so we can be rid of you but satisfied with your sacrificing-yourself-trying-to-defend-Bran arc…” Ah well.

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    60. Tron79,

      ”For me, Bran’s best moment was calling out LF before Arya executed him. I thought knowing all of history and being able to record past conversations in his mind was a good super power. He was able to see right through the deceit of those trying to win the game.”

      – He sure took his sweet time in calling out LF, when he had to know from his exchange with LF in S7e4 that LF was lying about the provenance of the dagger. (Bran asked him point blank whose dagger it was. LF said he didn’t know. If Bran could see into the past to hear LF say “Chaos is a ladder” in KL in S1, he would’ve been able to “hear“ LF tell Cat in S1 that it was his dagger and (lied) that he’d lost it in a bet to Tyrion.)

      – For that matter, Bran essentially enabled a serial killer to roam freely around WF and “turn sister against sister” when he should’ve easily and promptly uncovered LF’s shenanigans and past treacheries.
      – If the S7 WF “plot” is to be believed as presented by the showrunners, both sisters were being duped by LF and came close to killing each other. Bran could have easily nipped LF’s silly plan in the bud. (Then, of course, we wouldn’t have the contrived “drama” of PsychoArya vs. Gullible Sansa “Only a fool would trust LF” Stark trusting LF, and the big “surprise” moment of Arya’s “trial” turning into a trial by ambush of LF.)

      – I’m not sure about the value of Bran’s superpowers if he doesn’t know when to use them – and lets people labor under misapprehensions and false assumptions.

      – For (another) example, until Arya returned to WF in S7e4, she had been missing in action or presumed dead. For all Sansa knew, the last sighting of their little sister was when Brienne saw her in S4e10 before Arya disappeared again.
      But later in S7e4 during the Godswood scene with Arya, Bran and Sansa, Bran casually mentioned that he had “seen” Arya at the Crossroads Inn – where she’d been in S7e2 (however long ago that would’ve been based on travel time by horseback from the Crossroads Inn to WF).
      – But until that disclosure (after Arya had already returned home), Bran had never bothered to tell Sansa or anyone else that their sister was alive and well. (As a result, Arya received a nice welcome home from doofus guards who tried to turn her away, insisting “Arya Stark’s dead,” figuring she was “just some Winter Town girl.”)

      – Sure, Bran also said he thought Arya might be heading from the Crossroads to KL because “Cersei’s on her list of names.” Still, Bran had to know that the Lady of Winterfell – and by extension King Jon – would want prompt reporting of vital information about Arya’s welfare and whereabouts.

      – I suppose we can come up with all kinds of excuses for Bran’s non-disclosure – just like fans had strained to come up with a justification for Sansa’s non-disclosure of KotV in S6.

      – I’d agree that the ability “to record past conversations in his mind” and to “see right through the deceit of those trying to win the game” would be a good superpower. But if he failed to use those superpowers when they were needed, what good were they?

      – As you indicated in your 8:37 pm comment, you had “similar thoughts about Bran as well,” and were “quite disappointed on how the show decided to use Bran.”

      – I just felt that Bran and his superpowers represented a missed opportunity – more collateral damage from the absence of GRRM’s follow-through of the set-up of Bran’s abilities, or maybe a decision by the showrunners to jettison that whole storyline to streamline the path to the endgame.
      – Reducing Bran to a database of “memories” and “stories” just didn’t work for me.
      – Nor did his warging into birdies for no apparent reason during the climactic battle against the WWs.
      Fan speculation that Bran would warg into a dragon or undead dragon would’ve provided a purpose for Bran’s training and the sacrifices others made so he could acquire and develop his powers.
      Bran’s actual contribution to the defense against the WWs was pretty negligible. The Bran Bait Plan was wight hunt-level ridiculous, it required NK to behave like a moron, and it actually failed spectacularly.

      – I’m convinced GRRM had more interesting things in mind for Bran. It was my impression that an interesting conclusion for 3ER 2.0 Bran was set up in Season 1 through mid-Season 6, and then replaced with a diluted version.

      —————-
      (To be cont. Maybe. I can’t seem to edit and condense text with the stupid new IOS I downloaded.😡)

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    61. Pigeon:
      Ten Bears,

      I absolutely love that movie. ❤

      I still tear up

      near the end after someone blasts the bad guy to save the son, and the camera focuses in to reveal an aged-up Dennis Quaid, who hugs his stunned son and tells him: “I’m still here, Chief.”

        Quote  Reply

    62. Shelle,

      It made a huge difference to me to watch a brightened version of that last sequence that included Theon’s final scene. His expressions weren’t discernible when I first watched the episode.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Ten Bears:
      Ten Bears,

      Sorry. It looks like that link won’t work. (YouTube may have changed its policies?)

      Yeah, I noticed that too. I was trying to put on the “Two Swords” chicken clip on my 73chickens.com website, and it did the same thing on several of them. I wonder if YouTube changed the default setting to not allowing play on external websites and you have to hit a button to allow? I haven’t posted anything lately to check it out, but it’s a bit frustrating!

        Quote  Reply

    64. Ten Bears,

      There’s alot to unpack here as they say!
      Bran was just starting to get interesting in the books in his final chapter of ADWD.

      Bran was having visions hearing and seeing Ned in front of the weirwood tree. When Ned was talking to the tree, he was actually praying to Bran.

      The problem is that Bran only had a few chapters in the entire book series. I thought Bran was starting to get really interesting at the end of ADWD, but D&D had nothing to work with in terms of where Bran’s arc was going. It was just getting started, and Bran had the least amount of source material. And hence that’s the problem. I think many have written that D&D were great at adapting source material but not so great at coming up with their own new content.

      I have to go back and watch Arya/Sansa scenes in Beyond the Wall again. I don’t remember all of the dialogue now. I know Arya calls out Sansa for giving into Cersei and writing the letter. Sansa does say something about that she won the battle of the bastards, not Jon, since the Vale followed her. I was trying to remember if Arya ever called her out for betraying Jon at the BOTB.
      I thought those Winterfell scenes were important. I quite enjoyed them (and I’m in the minority). I loved seeing Arya’s skill of human lie detector. I thought this was one of the best skills she picked up from her training at THOBAW. Becoming faceless came with the ability to have the other person see herself in your face. She became a mirror for Sansa so Sansa could see herself and be truthful about what she had done. Arya was giving her sister some tough love with the game of faces. Arya showed that she was still on Sansa’s side when she flipped the dagger back to her. Those scenes were the best part of Beyond the Wall for me. Do those scenes count towards the the episode thread count? Gotta go for now…

        Quote  Reply

    65. Ten Bears,

      Not that I have anything to add, but to return to old conversations, Kevin is most probably right to believe that Bran will end up king in the North in the books. He’s foreshadowed to be king, he’s Robb’s heir and he’s called prince of Wintefell and Robb’s heir on multiple occasions. In addition, I can’t imagine that Jojen and Meera would lift their little finger for someone who’d become king of the six kingdoms while all along the North is bound to become independent again. It’s contradictive considering how bonded with the North the Reeds are. Why would they care about one who wouldn’t even live in their own future kingdom instead of, say, Sansa who became queen in the North? Why didn’t they rescue her instead of Bran?

      No. It doesn’t fit. As you said, the entire story was retconned and it was done somewhere while editing season 7. They probably had some pressure from the channel, or listened to the fans. This whole thing happened (imo) because they decided not to make Jon king of the six kingdoms, because “sexism” and super-blown-out-of proportion-condemned trope of lover killing lover. Instead they decided to sell the “romance” and everything, all threads, all characters and their arcs adapted to this; of course with the romance you can’t have the lover-murderer being king in the end.

      And, lastly, one needs to remember that they knew the ending before season 5, when they left Bran out. If he was destined to become king of the six kingdoms he’d be better prepared for it and they wouldn’t have lost the opportunity to insert some scenes where he gets in touch with southern history. Instead they left him out because he already had enough connection to the North, acting as lord or “prince” of WF. Until the very end of season 7 where Bran confers justice upon LF with Sansa, Bran is connected to the North.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Efi: No. It doesn’t fit. As you said, the entire story was retconned and it was done somewhere while editing season 7.

      I don’t know about that, Efi. The outline for season 7 was leaked and it’s dated April 2016 and it doesn’t seem like anything was retconned based on what we saw and what’s described in this outline.

      Plus, the whole storyline totally leaked in November 2016 while filming was taking place (pre-editing) and this storyline was what we ended up seeing on screen.

      Likewise, in the behind-the-scenes specials on the DVD, Benioff said GRRM had told them Bran was the final king, which seems to mean the king of 7K (or 6K or whatever). This is really the only thing we have confirmed about GRRM’s ending.

      The problem is GRRM told D&D what he had mapped out in 2013 but since GRRM hasn’t written anything yet and may not have connected all the dots between plot points, it was up to D&D to connect the dots themselves. By the time season 4 had wrapped up, Bran’s storyline up to the end of ADWD was completed. They didn’t have much material to work with from the books for these characters to appear in season 5. I suppose they could have lengthened the journey of Bran/Meera/Jojen throughout season 4 but that might have been a bit much without anything major happening to them.

      Adapting book 4 and 5 was a challenge because some POV characters appeared in book 4 and others didn’t — while the missing book 4 POVs appeared in book 5 and other characters didn’t. Book 4 and 5 are really two halves of the same story.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Tron79: I have to go back and watch Arya/Sansa scenes in Beyond the Wall again. I don’t remember all of the dialogue now. I know Arya calls out Sansa for giving into Cersei and writing the letter. Sansa does say something about that she won the battle of the bastards, not Jon, since the Vale followed her. I was trying to remember if Arya ever called her out for betraying Jon at the BOTB.

      I don’t think that issue was really addressed. They do talk about who won the BOTB (and even call it that in-universe for some reason…) but no mention of the withholding KoTV info. That was never ever brought up again after Sansa apologized.

      Sansa: You should be on your knees thanking me. We’re standing in Winterfell again because of me. You didn’t win it back. Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.

      Sansa: The Knights of the Vale have won the battle and they rode north for me. While you were where? Travelling the world?

      Arya: I was training.

      Sansa: Training? Well, while you were training, I suffered things you can never imagine.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Adrianacandle,

      just to add to what you said… The only other thing D&D knew for sure about what came after the books for Bran was the Hodor/hold the door scene. That was one of GRRM’s big reveals to them. So D&D knew that Bran would be King, and they knew Bran could warg into someone in the past.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Tron79:
      Adrianacandle,

      just to add to what you said… The only other thing D&D knew for sure about what came after the books for Bran was the Hodor/hold the door scene. That was one of GRRM’s big reveals to them.So D&D knew that Bran would be King, and they knew Bran could warg into someone in the past.

      Yes, and we know the burning of Shireen was confirmed to have come from GRRM and whatever the third holy sh!t moment was.

      Based on what D&D and GRRM have both said, it seems D&D had GRRM’s plans but until we get the books, we won’t know the full extent of those plans.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Ten Bears,

      That movie reminds me of a book called the First Fifteen Lives of Henry August. He is an august (sorry) member of a society that is continually being reborn, while remembering past lives. He needs to discover why so many are disappearing (memories erased?) and needs to figure out a way of delivering a message from the future to the past. Really fascinating (if a bit slow and sloggy in parts).

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ten Bears,

      all this, yes. Very frustrating how they used or rather didn’t use him. And why on earth did they cut the character from season 5? If it was because the training would be boring, it could have been interesting as a comparison to Aryas, perhaps having the two eventually combine their powers to help fight the NK? Apparently there was a scene where the two sisters go in to see Bran to ask for help, but that was cut. And big deal, he was the teller of the big reveal, which ultimately did not matter one iota. I still want to know just what he told Tyrion in that big moment that never got revealed, that lead Tyrion to say ‘you know we might just live’. So much lost potential there, so many guns left unshot. …

        Quote  Reply

    72. Adrianacandle,

      Sansa: You should be on your knees thanking me. We’re standing in Winterfell again because of me. You didn’t win it back. Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.

      Sansa: The Knights of the Vale won the battle and they rode north for me….”

      ——
      Au contraire, my Lady!

      “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards.”

      – HPNN
      (Hot Pie News Network)

        Quote  Reply

    73. Efi: If he was destined to become king of the six kingdoms he’d be better prepared for it and they wouldn’t have lost the opportunity to insert some scenes where he gets in touch with southern history. Instead they left him out because he already had enough connection to the North, acting as lord or “prince” of WF. Until the very end of season 7 where Bran confers justice upon LF with Sansa, Bran is connected to the North.

      I’m sorry to give you a second reply. I don’t think Bran needs to learn southern history (and I think Bran would know quite a bit of it already via his studies, as any other noble child would. All the Stark kids, including Jon, know the basics via their education).

      I think Bran is in touch with pretty much all history ever since his brain downloaded the history of the world via Three-Eyed Raven access.

      I think Sansa is the one who confers justice upon Littlefinger? Bran acts as her Wikipedia that Sansa is sourcing Littlefinger’s crimes from.

      I don’t think Bran already having enough connections to the North is why the showrunners left Bran out. If anything, Bran has been more and more removed from politics and more toward the spiritual (or even metaphysical) level as the Three-Eyed Raven. He’s not really Bran Stark anymore with only allegiances to his family. Now he’s a fully connected tree wizard too who can see all of history, all of now, and parts of the future. From the show’s presentation, it seems Bran is intended to be a neutral party, almost inhumanly so.

      Have you ever seen The Good Place? The Judge on there is a neutral party (but is totally obsessed with TV and media and all that fun stuff to pass the time! ;D) but she has no allegiances to humans, the good place, the bad place, any demon group — her rulings are performed without bias or emotion. I expect that’s what Three-Eyed Raven Bran is supposed to be.

      We don’t know how GRRM plans to make Bran king. I really think it’s meant as a move away from the old inherited system with a neutral party in place sans familial allegiances — so as not to invite conflict when making decisions. I think the showrunners left Bran out because they didn’t know what to do with him or his storyline.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Sansa: You should be on your knees thanking me. We’re standing in Winterfell again because of me. You didn’t win it back. Jon didn’t win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards.


      Sansa: The Knights of the Vale won the battle and they rode north for me….”

      ————
      Au contraire, my Lady!

      “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards.”

      – HPNN(Hot Pie News Network)

      LF: Fake news! It was me! I won the Battle of the Bastards!

      (From S7e2)
      Jon: “I have nothing to say to you.”
      LF: “Not even ‘thank you’? If it weren’t for me, you’d have been slaughtered on that battlefield.”

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    75. Ten Bears,

      Jon: “You lie, Spittleflinger! You didn’t win the Battle of the Bastards!”
      LF: “That’s Little-Finger”
      Jon: “Whatever.”

      from S6e10)

      Jon: “The Free Folk, the northerners, and the Knights of the Vale fought bravely, fought together, and we won.”

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    76. Ten Bears:
      Ten Bears,

      Jon: “You lie, Spittleflinger! You didn’t win the Battle of the Bastards!”
      LF: “That’s Little-Finger”
      Jon: “Whatever.”

      from S6e10)

      Jon: “The Free Folk, the northerners, and the Knights of the Vale fought bravely, fought together, and we won.”

      Robin: HOLD UP. I agreed to send the Knights of the Vale! So… you’re welcome 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    77. Adrianacandle,

      Davos: “It was the ferocious 62 Mormonts who doomed the Boltons.”

      (from S6e7)
      Davos: “As long as the Boltons hold Winterfell, the North is divided…We have to fight and we need to do it together.”
      ***
      Lyanna Mormont: “… Every man from Bear Island fights with the strength of ten mainlanders.”
      Davos: “If they’re half as ferocious as their lady, the Boltons are doomed.”

      (Narrator: He was right.)

        Quote  Reply

    78. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Davos: “It was the ferocious 62 Mormonts who doomed the Boltons.”

      (from S6e7)
      Davos: “As long as the Boltons hold Winterfell, the North is divided…We have to fight and we need to do it together.”
      ***
      Lyanna Mormont: “… Every man from Bear Island fights with the strength of ten mainlanders.”
      Davos: “If they’re half as ferocious as their lady, the Boltons are doomed.”

      (Narrator: He was right.)

      I yield to the narrator. He was right.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Sansa: “Don’t listen to Davos!
      He’s your most trusted advisor now? Because he secured 62 men from a ten-year old?”
      Sansa: “I won the Battle of the Bastards! I wrote a ravengram!”

      🦅 Raven #43: “Squawk! Squawk!
      (Translation: “No, I won the Battle of the Bastards! I delivered the scroll!)

        Quote  Reply

    80. ash,

      He told Tyrion about his journey. That’s why we didn’t see the conversation. The audience already knows the story we watched it. To have him explain what we the audience already know for ten minutes is a waste of screen time.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Ten Bears,

      The Night King was not a moron. He knew he didn’t need to fight anyone. He knew the dragons were the biggest threat so he trapped them in a storm. The only thing he wasn’t thinking of was Arya. The Night Kings plan was pretty solid until Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    82. I completely understand that disappointed fan who approached Alfie. The level of frustration must have been huge in that person when he was capable of saying something like that to Alfie directly. And I get it. THE FINAL SEASON SUCKED SO HARD! If only the creators hadn’t been so lazy and hadn’t wanted it to be over quickly to move to other projects. They BUTCHERED basically all characters, made idiots out of everyone (not just GoT characters but also us viewers which is even worse) and the used-to-be intelligent storytelling went to s*it. UGH.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Fireandblood87:
      ash,

      He told Tyrion about his journey. That’s why we didn’t see the conversation. The audience already knows the story we watched it. To have him explain what we the audience already know for ten minutes is a waste of screen time.

      A conversation from which Tyrion somehow concluded that Bran “had the best story” and the best qualities to rule the realm was a significant exchange that should have and could have been included.

      The audience really doesn’t know the story of Bran’s journey. For all we knew, Bran’s “visions” were fragmented, he had not mastered his powers, he said he wasn’t really Bran Stark anymore, he kept parroting other characters’ catch phrases, and he behaved like a disinterested weirdo.

      The story of his “journey” would have been highlighted by his compatriots sacrificing their lives for him; frying young Hodor’s brain; disabling the Cave’s shields, and causing the deaths of CotF, 3ER, Leaf, Summer and Hodor, all because he got bored and decided to go on an unsanctioned joyride.

      Sure, Bran had capabilities that might have persuaded Tyrion that Bran would be the most qualified nominee. We just never saw what they were. And Bran’s “story” on its face wasn’t so exceptional. Yes, it sounded impressive that a crippled boy traveled to the far north and made it back again. That was because he got piggyback rides from Hodor on the way there, and poor Meera dragged his a*s on a sled on the way back. Jojen and others gave their lives so he could reach his destinations and escape danger.

      Bran announced he doesn’t “want” anymore. His emotions are stunted (e.g., his parting words to Meera). He said he can’t be the lord of anything. He showed that he doesn’t timely impart critical intel, and often only provided it when specifically asked. He had become a socially awkward kid who spontaneously volunteered embarrassing but irrelevant details (e.g., Sansa’s wedding night).
      On the one occasion when his unique powers might have helped people, he announced “I’m going to go now” and warged into birdies.

      If Tyrion’s conversation with Bran functioned as a job interview for chief executive of all the kingdoms, it would have been nice if not imperative to show the audience how he aced the interview.

      Even on the Dragonpit dais, there were a host of other candidates with more impressive “stories” and qualities one would want in a monarch, for example, someone with the capacity for empathy and compassion, mixed with the ability to punish crimes and dispense justice when necessary.

      There had to be something Tyrion learned that we didn’t know. It would not have been “a waste of screen time” to explain it to us.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Fireandblood87,

      All episodes are edited before making it to screen. They choose shots, performances, dialog and pretty much everything we see on screen. That’s editing. In that process some scenes don’t even make it on screen.
      A blatant example is Cersei’s miscarriage, which stayed out of the finished product. I’d say that such an event would change the entire Jamie-Brienne-Cersei story of season 8, wouldn’t it? We know that the scene was filmed because Lena said it.
      Also, if you read my post carefully you’ll see that I didn’t mention that season 7 was retconned. I wrote specifically “the entire story was retconned”, meaning the story of season 8. Until the very end of season 7, Bran is well placed for becoming king in the North. It’s the afterwards that’s troubling and completely unfounded.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Fireandblood87,

      Nope. NK turned into a dummy. If a lucky shot from a dragonglass spear or a single thrust of a VS weapon could kill him and pulverize his entire army, there’s no way he’d come anywhere near the battle zone. Any one of his lieutenants or gang of wights could have whacked a boy in a wheelchair. Plus, by the time NK advanced on Bran, WF’s defenses had been breached. The AotD had overrun the castle. Jon Snow was pinned down by wight Viserion. Bran’s security detail had been wiped out. Jorah + Heartsbane were neutralized. NK had already resurrected corpses to reinforce his army.

      There was no need for NK to go after Bran himself.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Adrianacandle,

      I don’t see how Bran being removed from politics and leaning toward the spiritual or metaphysical prevented him from becoming king of six kingdoms. Why should he then not become king in the North because of that? It’s not an argument for or against neither of the two. All I’m saying is that he’s so far destined, or foreshadowed, to become king in the North in the books. Perhaps that will change with WoW. We’ll see.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Efi,

      ”…A blatant example is Cersei’s miscarriage, which stayed out of the finished product. I’d say that such an event would change the entire Jamie-Brienne-Cersei story of season 8, wouldn’t it?”

      Even before the season started I was railing against the prospect of “baby dramas.” I’d watch soap operas if I wanted to see that. I winced every time there were references to Cersei’s alleged pregnancy and talk about her “baby.”

      Interesting that it appears there wasn’t supposed to be a baby, but a miscarriage scene was excluded from the finished product. Not sure what to make of that…

      Related question: What was all the talk about Dany’s fertility all about? Was that supposed to set up another baby drama? After the Jon & Dany discussion in S7e7 questioning the reliability of the blood magic lady from S1 who told Dany she wouldn’t be able to have kids, nothing ever came of it.

      Not that I’m complaining. I didn’t want the show to devolve into Incest Bastard Baby Bowl between Cersei’s baby and Dany’s baby – and Little Sam thrown in for good measure.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Efi,

      I don’t see how Bran being removed from politics and leaning toward the spiritual or metaphysical prevented him from becoming king of six kingdoms.

      I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. I was trying to illustrate how Bran becoming the Three-Eyed-Raven makes him a neutral king of the 7K. One without any allegiances or biases, one who can’t be lied or used as a puppet, one who has access to the truth and has no preference for any one family/kingdom’s interests over the other.

      I was trying to argue against the point that Bran was poised to become King in the North because he’s Robb’s heir because I think that’s a system GRRM may be moving away from. Bran didn’t become king of the 6K in the show due to having the right bloodline. He became king because he was elected by the other kingdoms.

      Why should he then not become king in the North because of that? It’s not an argument for or against neither of the two. All I’m saying is that he’s so far destined, or foreshadowed, to become king in the North in the books. Perhaps that will change with WoW. We’ll see.

      Because becoming King in the North because of bloodlines is the old system — where rules are born, not chosen, so you don’t know what kind of ruler you’re going to get. Plus, foreshadowing is tricky. It can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

      It’s unknown if the North will become independent at the end of the series. The only confirmed plot point about GRRM’s ending is Bran ends up as the “final king”.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Efi,

      I’m sorry for stepping in but I wanted to address this:

      I’d say that such an event would change the entire Jamie-Brienne-Cersei story of season 8, wouldn’t it?

      No, not necessarily. Jaime wasn’t going back for their baby, he was going back for Cersei because, per D&D, she was an addiction he couldn’t quit.

      I think it gives motivation for Tyrion to want to save Cersei though, thus heightening his divided interests between allegiance to Dany and wanting to save the lives of both his siblings because the sister who wanted him dead is now pregnant. (In the show) Tyrion loved his niece and nephew, he’d want to save this one too.

      But this wouldn’t change all of season 8 or mean that D&D changed the endgame.

      Ten Bears brought up how season 7 kept bringing up Dany’s fertility — Tyrion, Jon, Jorah told Jon that he wanted Longclaw to go to his kids — but that may have been a dropped storyline too. Unlike with Cersei, there are no reports of any of these scenes being filmed though. It may have been to screw with us, maybe there will be a baby in the books but it was removed because there wasn’t enough time to cover that story, maybe D&D are just trying to screw with us. I don’t know.

      We won’t know until the books come out, if they come out.

      I wrote specifically “the entire story was retconned”, meaning the story of season 8. Until the very end of season 7, Bran is well placed for becoming king in the North. It’s the afterwards that’s troubling and completely unfounded.

      Well, there’s no evidence for this either though (that Bran was intended to become King in the North). Or that D&D scapped all of their season 8 plans and changed the endgame while season 7 was being edited. Why would they do this? There are some dropped scenes and tweaks but the story itself doesn’t seem changed so that Bran becomes king and Jon doesn’t.

      Bran being the final king is the only thing we know about GRRM’s endgame. Everything else, I think happens but it’s not a confirmed detail.

      I’ve gone over why I don’t think Jon is destined to be king (Adam Feldman wrote an article about Bran as king) and I’m not sure why D&D would scrap their original plans for season 8 when season 7 hadn’t even aired yet.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Adrianacandle,

      Phrasing problem!

      “Tyrion, Jon *[talk about fertility], and Jorah told Jon that he wanted Longclaw to go to his kids […]”

      Typos!

      *Because becoming King in the North because of bloodlines is the old system — *where rulers are born, not chosen.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Ten Bears,

      Night King exposes himself at Hardhome. He exposed himself at the cave. He didn’t turn into a “dummy” by exposing himself at Winterfell. That was always his character. He’s arrogant. As a supernatural 10,000 year old ice zombie, it’s only natural he’d be. Besides, he had a personal grudge with the Three-Eyed Raven and wanted to do it himself. He had one flaw, that doesn’t make him an idiot. And everything you said actually works against your argument. All the threats to him have seemingly been neutralized, so why wouldn’t he kill Bran himself?

        Quote  Reply

    92. Adrianacandle,

      ”Ten Bears brought up how season 7 kept bringing up Dany’s fertility — Tyrion, Jon, Jorah told Jon that he wanted Longclaw to go to his kids — but that may have been a dropped storyline too. Unlike with Cersei, there are no reports of any of these scenes being filmed though. It may have been to screw with us, maybe there will be a baby in the books but it was removed because there wasn’t enough time to cover that story, maybe D&D are just trying to screw with us. I don’t know.
      We won’t know until the books come out, if they come out.”

      ____

      Here’s my problem(s) with what appear to be dropped storylines.
      (Note: Commenter Wimsey used to provide scholarly “tutorials” on effective dramatic principles such as “Chekhov’s Gun.” He could probably articulate this better. My laymen’s understanding may be inaccurate, and could be based on a faulty recollection of something Stephen King once wrote, about “theater rules” of Anton Chekhov and William of Occam as applied to storytelling in novels. Here goes anyway…)

      • Unnecessary details and extraneous information are supposed to be edited out of a screenplay or story before it’s finalized (and published or filmed). Otherwise, they come off as “red herrings” or waste of pages (or screentime). And readers or viewers are misled into assuming there are “guns” being hung, and expect them to be “fired” by the end.
      • The already-shortened final two seasons of Game of Thrones couldn’t and shouldn’t include window-dressing or world-building that might have been okay in earlier seasons.
      • Raising the possibility that Dany wasn’t barren after all, right before(?) she started having sex with Jon. appeared to set up a pregnancy. Or else…why bother bringing it up?
      • If the only bearing their sexual relations had (in conjunction with Jon’s parentage reveal) was that Jon would be squeamish about boinking his aunt and Dany would become paranoid that her lover might assert a superior claim to the throne, what would it matter if she was fertile or not? The prospect of having a child never came up.
      • For book readers, a Targ child would play into the prophecy (I think) that the PTWP would be a descendant of a Targ line – raising the possibility of another candidate other than Jon or Dany. That might have been an interesting twist. But no baby, no complication.

      • I don’t understand how a miscarriage was intended to terminate Cersei’s pregnancy, and the show just left that out.
      • When that clown Euron was boasting about putting a baby in Cersei’s belly, I thought the show was setting up some conflict when Euron discovered she already had Jaime’s bun in the oven. But nope. And when Tyrion was droning on outside the city walls to Cersei about “your baby,” clueless Euron didn’t flinch. (He didn’t wonder, “WTF? What baby? And how and when did Tyrion learn this?”) There’s no way a psycho like Euron would be stepdad to a Lannister scion. I figured he’d do something horrific to get rid of that “baby.”
      • When all was said and done, the only apparent relevance of her “baby” was to make her a liitle more sympathetic at the end when she was whimpering about not wanting to die – and perhaps to make Tyrion look like a fool for believing a pregnancy would motivate Cersei to join the fight vs. the Dead. Ugh. That didn’t matter much anyway, because Jaime soon made it clear to the alliance that Cersei double-crossed them.

      • So I have to question why include any baby dramas or pregnancies to begin with, and why not delete them entirely from the scripts before shooting began?

      • Misc. ⚠️ The only pregnancy story line that was arguably set up properly would have been a twist on King Robert’s declaration to Ned in S1e1 (paraphrasing): “I have a son. You have a daughter. We’ll join our houses.” However, I did NOT want to see a Gendry Baratheon – Arya Stark marriage, and certainly did not want to see Arya knocked up.

      • Anyway, with screen time at a premium in the shortened final seasons, I don’t understand how dead end storylines weren’t jettisoned.

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    93. Young Dragon,

      “That was always his [NK’s] character. He’s arrogant. As a supernatural 10,000 year old ice zombie, it’s only natural he’d be. Besides, he had a personal grudge with the Three-Eyed Raven and wanted to do it himself.”

      ——-
      Cool! NK had a personality! And character traits! Arrogance, selfishness, and pride.

      He certainly had more charisma than that goofball Euron.

      So…NK was like a tragic Shakespearean hero, felled by a fatal flaw: hubris.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Ten Bears,

      (Note: Commenter Wimsey used to provide scholarly “tutorials” on effective dramatic principles such as “Chekhov’s Gun.” He could probably articulate this better. My laymen’s understanding may be inaccurate, and could be based on a faulty recollection of something Stephen King once wrote, about “theater rules” of Anton Chekhov and William of Occam as applied to storytelling in novels. Here goes anyway…)

      Maybe it was intended to be a red herring. I had another thought since my last post that maybe it’s a cruel irony that the Targaryen familial succession (and name) will meet its end. Neither Jon or Dany pass down the Targaryen name and Westeros shifts to an elective monarchy.

      I thought this all set up a pregnancy too but I was never 100% on that. But not only did it come up in that 7×07 Jon/Dany chat where they actually question Dany’s infertility, since Jon doesn’t seem to buy it, it’s brought up by Tyrion earlier in the season. After going for seasons where it’s not really addressed. D&D and Kit Harington also address it in the commentary for that episode when watching that Dany/Jon 7×07 scene:

      Harington: Yeah, she says she can’t have children

      Benioff: Well, we’ll see about that.

      Harington: We’ll see about that.

      Heady: And do you say, you haven’t met mini Kit?

      Weiss: You haven’t met the Little Jon Snow.

      Harington: You haven’t met the Little Jon.

      Maybe they were just joking. Maybe this could have been a detail in the books that they originally intended to include but decided to nix (I believe, in this commentary, D&D mention they had just finished the season 8 scripts), maybe it’s intended as a cruel irony (the whole Harsher in Hindsight thing like Robb and Jon talking about seeing each other again and they never never do), but it seems fairly deliberate. However, I don’t think it reached filming stages like the Cersei miscarriage did so we don’t really know what they ever intended to do with this apparent set-up.

      In the original freefolk leaks for season 7, Cersei’s miscarriage was supposed to happen in episode 7.

      I don’t think either dropped plot point affects the core storyline but again, maybe it’s a detail in the books that D&D intended to include but time didn’t account for it, like it was too much on top of a pile of stuff they needed to get through.

      But when one of GRRM’s editors, Linda Antonsson, was speculating what GRRM’s ending may be based off of 8×06, she thought Dany may have a child. Still, while she knows the world of ASOIAF inside and out and I think she’s seen some of Winds, she doesn’t act what GRRM is planning.

      For book readers, a Targ child would play into the prophecy (I think) that the PTWP would be a descendant of a Targ line – raising the possibility of another candidate other than Jon or Dany. That might have been an interesting twist. But no baby, no complication.

      If it a Targy baby is a book detail, maybe. It depends on how the child is born and if there’s a need for the kid. They’d be 75% fire, 25% ice — still technically ice and fire. But I don’t know.

      When that clown Euron was boasting about putting a baby in Cersei’s belly, I thought the show was setting up some conflict when Euron discovered she already had Jaime’s bun in the oven. But nope. And when Tyrion was droning on outside the city walls to Cersei about “your baby,” clueless Euron didn’t flinch. (He didn’t wonder, “WTF? What baby? And how and when did Tyrion learn this?”)

      I think this is another one of those overlooked details (re:Euron’s reaction and failing to question how Tyrion knows. Unless Cersei sent a raven to Tyrion, Tyrion wouldn’t know about a pregnancy by Eurion since Tyrion hasn’t been in the same room with Cersei since she and Eurion have had sex). I’d think this would be a thing Euron would have some thoughts on and maybe he would have reacted — but perhaps in a season with more time. There was that Jaime-Euron fight but no kid was mentioned.

      I think you’re right about the purposes of the pregnancy making Cersei look more sympathetic in the end and giving reason Tyrion to believe Cersei. Maybe it’s possible there was never a Dany-Jon baby or that plot point fell by the wayside because it was too much on top of an already crowded season.

      Yeah, I don’t think I’d be happy if Arya found herself pregnant. I think King Robert’s line more set up a marriage than a pregnancy but Arya turned that down and for reasons that are true to her character.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Ten Bears,

      (Note: Commenter Wimsey used to provide scholarly “tutorials” on effective dramatic principles such as “Chekhov’s Gun.” He could probably articulate this better. My laymen’s understanding may be inaccurate, and could be based on a faulty recollection of something Stephen King once wrote, about “theater rules” of Anton Chekhov and William of Occam as applied to storytelling in novels. Here goes anyway…)

      Maybe it was intended to be a red herring. I had another thought since my last post that maybe it’s a cruel irony that the Targaryen familial succession (and name) will meet its end. Neither Jon or Dany pass down the Targaryen name and Westeros shifts to an elective monarchy.

      I thought this all set up a pregnancy too but I was never 100% on that. But not only did it come up in that 7×07 Jon/Dany chat where they actually question Dany’s infertility, since Jon doesn’t seem to buy it, it’s brought up by Tyrion earlier in the season. After going for seasons where it’s not really addressed. D&D and Kit Harington also address it in the commentary for that episode when watching that Dany/Jon 7×07 scene:

      Harington: Yeah, she says she can’t have children

      Benioff: Well, we’ll see about that.

      Harington: We’ll see about that.

      Heady: And do you say, you haven’t met mini Kit?

      Weiss: You haven’t met the Little Jon Snow.

      Harington: You haven’t met the Little Jon.

      Maybe they were just joking. Maybe this could have been a detail in the books that they originally intended to include but decided to nix (I believe, in this commentary, D&D mention they had just finished the season 8 scripts), maybe it’s intended as a cruel irony (the whole Harsher in Hindsight thing like Robb and Jon talking about seeing each other again and they never never do), but it seems fairly deliberate. However, I don’t think it reached filming stages like the Cersei miscarriage did so we don’t really know what they ever intended to do with this apparent set-up.

      In the original season 7 leaks, Cersei’s miscarriage was set to happen in episode 7.

      I don’t think either dropped plot point affects the core storyline but again, maybe it’s a detail in the books that D&D intended to include but time didn’t account for it, like it was too much on top of a pile of stuff they needed to get through.

      But when one of GRRM’s editors, Linda Antonsson, was speculating what GRRM’s ending may be based off of 8×06, she thought Dany may have a child. Still, while she knows the world of ASOIAF inside and out and I think she’s seen some of Winds, she doesn’t ask what GRRM is planning.

      For book readers, a Targ child would play into the prophecy (I think) that the PTWP would be a descendant of a Targ line – raising the possibility of another candidate other than Jon or Dany. That might have been an interesting twist. But no baby, no complication.

      If it a Targy baby is a book detail, maybe. It depends on how the child is born and if there’s a need for the kid. They’d be 75% fire, 25% ice — still technically ice and fire. But I don’t know.

      When that clown Euron was boasting about putting a baby in Cersei’s belly, I thought the show was setting up some conflict when Euron discovered she already had Jaime’s bun in the oven. But nope. And when Tyrion was droning on outside the city walls to Cersei about “your baby,” clueless Euron didn’t flinch. (He didn’t wonder, “WTF? What baby? And how and when did Tyrion learn this?”)

      I think this is another one of those overlooked details (re:Euron’s reaction and failing to question how Tyrion knows. Unless Cersei sent a raven to Tyrion, Tyrion wouldn’t know about a pregnancy by Eurion since Tyrion hasn’t been in the same room with Cersei since she and Eurion have had sex. I think this may give Euron pause?) I’d think this would be a thing Euron would have some thoughts on and maybe he would have reacted — but perhaps in a season with more time. There was that Jaime-Euron fight but no kid was mentioned.

      I think you’re right about the purposes of the pregnancy making Cersei look more sympathetic in the end and giving reason Tyrion to believe Cersei. Maybe it’s possible there was never a Dany-Jon baby or that plot point fell by the wayside because it was too much on top of an already crowded season.

      Yeah, I don’t think I’d be happy if Arya found herself pregnant. I think King Robert’s line more set up a marriage than a pregnancy but Arya turned that down and for reasons that are true to her character.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Ten Bears:
      Sansa: “Don’t listen to Davos!“He’s your most trusted advisor now? Because he secured 62 men from a ten-year old?”
      Sansa: “I won the Battle of the Bastards! I wrote a ravengram!”

      🦅 Raven #43: “Squawk! Squawk!
      (Translation: “No, I won the Battle of the Bastards! I delivered the scroll!)

      Dennis: “Well I didn’t vote for you.”
      Other villager: “Ooh! There’s some lovely filth over here!”

        Quote  Reply

    97. Adrianacandle,

      What I found interesting is that Cersei’s invisible pregnancy explains why she was so invested in those elephants – she appears to share the same gestation period with them of almost 2 years. 🤪

        Quote  Reply

    98. Pigeon:
      Adrianacandle,

      What I found interesting is that Cersei’s invisible pregnancy explains why she was so invested in those elephants – she appears to share the same gestation period with them of almost 2 years. 🤪

      LOL you’re right. She never did show…! XD;;; But what can you expect from a two-year pregnancy? 🙂

      Cersei and soap opera women should talk. They never show either unless the actress is really pregnant and even then, they don’t like to show it. They like to put them behind plants, oversized purses, and under coats.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Congrats to Peter for winning Best Drama Actor at the SAG Awards and to GoT for winning Best Stunt Ensemble where they finished 8-0 in that category!

        Quote  Reply

    100. Ten Bears,

      I think it was a thread they just dropped, like others. They probably meant to increase drama with Cersei no matter how it went with her pregnancy (they could make use of it either way) but adding another one would simply be cheesy. So it was good that they dropped it.
      In the books the only ones foreshadowed to have bastard children are Jon and Sansa. Sansa has an entire chapter in WoW devoted to it. In context, for Jon it’s simply bitter (because he grew up as a bastard himself and he consciously doesn’t want it to happen) and for Sansa it would mean there’d be another man in her life who doesn’t respect her as a person and means to exploit either her graces or her political importance. It’s bad no matter how you look at it.
      The rest in spoilers.

      I was rereading Daenerys’s chapter the day before yesterday, the one exactly before she flew away with Drogon. The chapter is about the celebration for the signing of the peace treaty with the Yunkai’i. I was surprised to realize that she was fully aware that her plan was falling apart. The thing with Daenerys is that she is the mother of dragons, so she can’t be mother of people. In that chapter it becomes clear that she is aware of that and she still chooses the second by the end of the chapter, while all along she planned Brown Benn Plumm’s assassination and called Quentyn to explore the possibility that he might become a dragonrider; she is exploring options other than the peace treaty.

      In this context, some of the people calling her mhysa is a tragic irony designed to drive home exactly this point, as she comes to realize that being a “mother of people” instead of a conqueror is much more difficult than she thought at first. She is aware that leaving the Astapori behind led to the tragedy that befell that city; so in Meereen she decides to stay and try to become what the people want of her, a “mother of the people”. But as the days go by she realizes that it’s harder than she could stand. With due cause; she married one she didn’t even like, she was besieged by her enemies, she gave them the fighting pits, she gave them free trade of slaves, they had even set up a slave market below the city walls, and the Astapori were dying en masse because of the plague, which also creeped inside Meereen as well. This wasn’t a peace treaty, it was an unconditional capitulation.

      One might wonder what she could do to stop the killing inside Meereen. I don’t know. But as the situation is at this point, it seems that going all fire and blood agaist Yunkai would be a better option, because it’d show what she could do and the others -e.g. Volantis- would stay quiet for not suffering the same fate while she’d gather more allies to face their armies with armies instead of dragons.
      It would be too easy for Martin I suppose; he obviously meant for Daenerys to realize what the price of peace is before she sets for Westeros, so when she arrives there, she’ll be more prepared to hang above their heads the fire and blood sword of Damocles, while in Meereen she hid that sword away.

      As the day of the fighting pits dawns she says:
      “On the morrow I must bathe in blood. The price of peace”.

      I think it is said in other chapters that more than 200 people lost their lives that day while Drogon flew away with Daenerys. By choosing Drogon she forsakes the dream of being mother of people once and for all.

      Go with my blessing; I hope it doesn’t get onboard the “page not found” mothership like my other replies.

        Quote  Reply

    101. I actually liked the 8th season, I don’t really understand all the hate. Quality was good, majority of characters got the ending they deserved and so many leads to Dany’s fate were given during the whole show that I don’t quite grasp the surprise that it was to so many. D&D did a great job with the closure of this extensive and complicated show. Am I the only one?

        Quote  Reply

    102. Efi,

      In the books the only ones foreshadowed to have bastard children are Jon and Sansa. Sansa has an entire chapter in WoW devoted to it. In

      I’m not sure what you mean, what foreshadowing?

      Dany being the Mother of Dragons doesn’t mean she can’t be a mother to a child. Dany believes she’s barren because of what MMD told her. But MMD could be wrong. I mean, Jon believes he’s a bastard son too and Jon may not be a bastard son.

      I wouldn’t bet any money on Dany having a child, I think it can go either way, but it is a possibility (especially with Dany getting her period again or having a miscarriage at the end of ADWD) as much as it’s a possibility it won’t happen.

      In the 9 years since ADWD was released, there’s been a ton of speculation over Dany’s possible period/maybe-miscarriage. And what this may mean for her future.

      while all along she planned Brown Benn Plumm’s assassination and called Quentyn to explore the possibility that he might become a dragonrider; she is exploring options other than the peace treaty.

      I’m sorry if I’m misremembering, where are these from? Brown Ben isn’t dead and Dany hasn’t been planning his assassination all along. Brown Ben betrayed her, defecting to Yunkai as he saw it as the winning side and now the Yunkai are marching to attack. This forces Dany to close the gates on the Astapori refugees who she can’t let in because they’re contagious and it would mean the death of the Meereenese people. But even after she learns of Plumm’s treachery, she also fears Daario will kill Brown Ben and she isn’t willing to risk that as it’d make a mockery of Hizdahr. Later, though, after she meets with Brown Ben face to face, she entertains the idea of having him “removed” to Barristan. However, by the end of ADWD, Brown Ben is alive.

      Dany didn’t call Quentyn to meet her dragons for him to become a dragonrider. Barriston advised Dany that Dorne would be a good ally for when she returned to Westeros. Dany also implores Quentyn to leave Meereen as she fears her court isn’t safe for him.

      I’m not sure what this has to do with Dany unable to become a mother? I think you mean that a conquerer can’t be a mother of a child if she can’t be mother of the people? That her resolve to “fire and blood” at the end of ADWD means she can only be a dragon, never have a child? I don’t think that’s exactly true… I think that’s a speculative connection. It could be right, it could be wrong.

      Maybe it turns out Dany can’t have children after all, maybe it is a tragic irony that she is called mhysa — but I don’t see anything definite here.

      I’m sorry if I’m misremembering anything.

        Quote  Reply

    103. LittleBird94:
      I actually liked the 8th season, I don’t really understand all the hate. Quality was good, majority of characters got the ending they deserved and so many leads to Dany’s fate were given during the whole show that I don’t quite grasp the surprise that it was to so many. D&D did a great job with the closure of this extensive and complicated show. Am I the only one?

      No, you’re not the only one. Agreed 100%. Thought it was brilliant from the first second to the last. I’ll never know how Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss did it, but they wrapped up this behemoth brilliantly and I’ll always be grateful.

        Quote  Reply

    104. LittleBird94: I actually liked the 8th season, I don’t really understand all the hate. Quality was good, majority of characters got the ending they deserved and so many leads to Dany’s fate were given during the whole show that I don’t quite grasp the surprise that it was to so many. D&D did a great job with the closure of this extensive and complicated show. Am I the only one?

      No, you’re not the only one! I think there are quite a few who enjoyed season 8 and I’m very glad it works for these viewers. I really, really, really wish it worked for me. Still, whatever problems I, personally, have with season 8 and its writing, it doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate others enjoyed this season and I think D&D were in a pretty difficult position — having to write the conclusion to this extensive and complicated show and having to do it with only the plans GRRM gave them.

      I think this show is a miracle, that it exists and became one of the biggest shows in the world is mind-boggling and awesome. A medieval fantasy show with firebreathing dragons, zombies, politics, and magic. It felt like the whole world was watching. That’s pretty incredible!! And D&D did it!

        Quote  Reply

    105. Pigeon,

      I didn’t notice it on initially watching season 1 of GoT because I wasn’t looking for it but when I’ve seen clips of season 1 since when Lena Headey was pregnant in real life I can see her baby bump!

        Quote  Reply

    106. LittleBird94:
      I actually liked the 8th season, I don’t really understand all the hate. Quality was good, majority of characters got the ending they deserved and so many leads to Dany’s fate were given during the whole show that I don’t quite grasp the surprise that it was to so many. D&D did a great job with the closure of this extensive and complicated show. Am I the only one?

      LittleBird, I think it depends upon what was expecting from the series. I’d heard that GRRM had said ASOIAF would have a bittersweet ending so I wasn’t expecting a conventional happy conclusion. I came to the books via the show so I probably had the show version imprinted on my mind. Also I think finishing an uncompleted story where the writer of the source material is still alive must be like trying to push water uphill. So maybe I am less judgmental than some other folk. Then again, for people who had read the books first, there may have been minor characters or sub-plots that were cut which disappointed them. (Then there are some ‘show onlies’ who didn’t like the end).

      I think the best thing we can all do is agree to disagree – politely. I do sometimes read the subreddit called something like “A CirclejerkofASOIAF” for a laugh. I don’t “do” Reddit and I’ve never looked at the subreddit “Freefolk” but people there are apparently still incandescent with rage about a show which ended 8 months ago.

        Quote  Reply

    107. One of my posts which referred to something on reddit has been marked as having been submitted for moderation. I referred to free folk and autocorrect had changed it to “freehold” but I wasn’t able to edit the comment even though it was within the editing few minutes allowed because the comment had gone for moderation.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Dame of Mercia:
      Pigeon,

      I didn’t notice it on initially watching season 1 of GoT because I wasn’t looking for it but when I’ve seen clips of season 1 since when Lena Headey was pregnant in real life I can see her baby bump!

      Really? I had no idea! That’s something cool to keep in mind 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    109. It was not clear to me why despite the length of Cersei’s pregnancy, they did not seem to bother to make Lena wear a pretend baby bump. Any idea why not?

      Wasn’t the pregnancy supposed to make her a “sympathetic mommy” at the end?

        Quote  Reply

    110. Semi Off-Topic/For Dinklage fans

      The U.S. Department of Defense released pictures of the uniforms for its new “Space Force.” My first thought was: OMG, surely this is going to be ridiculed with clips of Peter Dinklage wearing (and singing about) his Space Pants.

      I was right. Here, check it out if you’d like.

      “Space Pants” by Jonathan Comet (Peter Dinklage) on Saturday Night Live

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwpmqMnngRk

      (Starts at 1:01)

        Quote  Reply

    111. Ten Bears,

      I do not know how Dinklage kept a straight face when he walked on stage wearing the platinum Dutch Boy wig and announced “My name is Jonathan Comet, and this song is called ‘Space Pants.’ Begin transmission.”

        Quote  Reply

    112. Mango:
      It was not clear to me why despite the length of Cersei’s pregnancy, they did not seem to bother to make Lena wear a pretend baby bump. Any idea why not?

      Wasn’t the pregnancy supposed to make her a “sympathetic mommy” at the end?

      Maybe because even a dummy like Euron would put two and two together and figure out Cersei was carrying someone else’s (i.e., Jaime’s) baby.

      Which…actually might have given him a colorable motive to attack Jaime when he magically washed up on the beach at the precise spot and at the precise time Jaime was there.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Adrianacandle,

      “…I had another thought since my last post that maybe it’s a cruel irony that the Targaryen familial succession (and name) will meet its end. Neither Jon or Dany pass down the Targaryen name and Westeros shifts to an elective monarchy.”

      ——-
      Could very well be. On the other hand, based on the open-ended final scene of Jon aka Aegon Targaryen riding off with the adoring Free Folk, what are the chances that Jon/Aegon won’t have offspring and the Targaryen family succession will meet its end?

      As Ygritte observed (in S2e7):

      Ygritte to Jon: “You’re a pretty lad. Girls would claw each other’s eyes out to get naked with you.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lde4qgB3zYY

      at 0:58

      —————

        Quote  Reply

    114. Ten Bears: Maybe because even a dummy like Euron would put two and two together and figure out Cersei was carrying someone else’s (i.e., Jaime’s) baby.

      Which…actually might have given him a colorable motive to attack Jaime when he magically washed up on the beach at the precise spot and at the precise time Jaime was there.

      Hahhaaaa! So the option that would have helped this make sense was skipped.

      It is still very funny that Euron washed up out of nowhere to that exact spot and decided to fight Jaime for no clear reason. A fight to the death at that. Lol!

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    115. Ten Bears,

      I think Jon is remaining with the Night’s Watch as of the end of the series, I don’t think he’ll be risking another relationship or defying the peace deal Bran set up — even if it’s just in spirit. I think Jon will honour his sentence, especially after killing Dany, something Jon himself doesn’t feel was right. Plus both Ygritte and Dany died in his arms so Jon’s now got some serious relationship issues to contend with.

      Harington on those deaths:

      “This is the second woman he’s fallen in love with who dies in his arms and he cradles her in the same way,” Harington said. “That’s an awful thing. In some ways, Jon did the same thing to [his Wilding lover] Ygritte by training the boy who kills her. This destroys Jon to do this.”

      Adam Feldman (of those essays I keep linking to, he wrote those ADWD essays that got GRRM’s approval) addressed this in a Reddit post, pointing out the following:

      From the finale script:

      Jon walks down the last few stairs to the ground level, where the last of the Free Folk await him: a few hundred men, women and children. Jon steps forward into the sea of waiting faces. There is no suspicion in those faces, and no awe. Only trust. The Night’s Watch used to hunt them, but they will follow this Night’s Watchman.

      Feldman’s comments:

      This ending [staying with the Night’s Watch], I will say, makes more sense to me. Jon rejecting his sentence and abandoning the Wall would mean defying the peace deal that was just orchestrated. It would theoretically mean Sansa or Bran would be obligated to hunt him down. Whereas Jon choosing to accept his sentence for killing Daenerys — a sentence to end his days at the Wall — has a sad poetry to it. I also suspect the drama of Jon’s actual sentencing will play a more important role in the books (mirroring Bran’s first chapter), so it would be odd if Jon rejected that sentence shortly afterward.

      I tend to agree. Either way, I think the Targaryen name is dead.

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    116. Ten Bears,

      That said, while I think Jon remains with the Watch, I think maybe the wildlings are Jon’s true people and perhaps he belongs to them more than any other group, more than even his own family maybe (although yes, Jon’s family loves him and he loves them too, he’s never really been truly one of them). The wildlings follow merit, not name, not blood, and Jon seems to really appreciate that — maybe because he grew up as a bastard and experienced the hardships that came with bastardry. Both bastards and wildlings are kind of shoved to the periphery of Westeros with no real place in society there.

      But anyway, the wildlings have chosen Jon and they fostered a pretty strong connection based on what they’ve done for each other and what they’ve been through together. It’s nothing to do with having the right blood, the right name, it’s merit. Even in the books, when Tormund’s band is passing through the Wall, there are wildlings swearing their weapons to Jon — and they’re the ones who volunteer to take on Ramsay alongside Jon.

      So maybe, even with Jon remaining a Night’s Watchmen (and now, the Night’s Watch has changed because when Jon arrives, wildlings are the ones populating Castle Black and have been defending the Wall alongside the Watch brothers since season 7), the wildlings might be truly Jon’s people.

      Sorry for the ramble! I thought about this on my way to Tim Horton’s and back 😉

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    117. Adrianacandle

      Jon ended up KBTW (king beyond the Wall)
      Saying they were sending him to the nights watch was a bit of a ruse since there really wasn’t an active nights watch. He left castle black for good as the gate closed. Jon was forever damaged by killing Dany (however). He gave a very brief smile to the wildling kids and then journeyed forward accepting his new reality. At least the people who would follow him loved him but he was forever broken. He should have been called Jon the Broken. But I never thought he was really in the nights watch again. And even if he was he was never going back to castle black. He would live in the true north with Ghost. I was hoping Arya would save Jon the pain of killing Dany by doing it herself. That was another of my fan theories that didn’t happen though.

      If anyone said this same thing further up in the thread I apologize for repeating.

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    118. Tron79:
      Adrianacandle

      Jon ended up KBTW (king beyond the Wall)
      Saying they were sending him to the nights watch was a bit of a ruse since there really wasn’t an active nights watch. He left castle black for good as the gate closed. Jon was forever damaged by killing Dany (however). He gave a very brief smile to the wildling kids and then journeyed forward accepting his new reality.At least the people who would follow him loved him but he was forever broken. He should have been called Jon the Broken.But I never thought he was really in the nights watch again. And even if he was he was never going back to castle black. He would live in the true north with Ghost.I was hoping Arya would save Jon the pain of killing Dany by doing it herself.That was another of my fan theories that didn’t happen though.

      If anyone said this same thing further up in the thread I apologize for repeating.

      I agree almost everything you’ve said here but I think Jon being exiled to the Night’s Watch was more than just a ruse. I think it was a genuine compromise and a sentence Jon will probably feel he must stick with. I agree with you that Jon is probably forever damaged by killing Dany, it’s also kinslaying (as well as oathbreaking), the worst sin somebody can commit in the eyes of the Old Gods (and Jon keeps a pretty strong faith with the Old Gods but I think that’s more apparent in the books). Jon will feel that, I think. I have a hard time seeing Jon leaving his sentence. But I also think this does release Jon in a sense from the wars, politics, and ways of the realm, things that have caused him so much pain.

      I really like the idea of Jon being King Beyond the Wall, I’ve always thought Jon and Mance share quite a few similarities and so I think there is a poetry in that, but I don’t see him leaving his sentence under these circumstances. That script detail and Jon wearing the cloak of the Lord Commanders seems to indicate (to me) that Jon sticks with the Watch. But I agree about everything else though.

      There was an omitted part of the script where Tyrion says winter may come again and the Watch may be needed — so maybe Jon will be needing to defend the realms forever in a sense in case it comes back. Linda Antonsson thought that Jon’s fate was the Wall, I think — that he’ll be required to keep the Others forced back in the books.

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    119. Adrianacandle,

      It’s unfortunate that Jon’s fate was left somewhat ambiguous. Stuck in Castle Black until the end of his days? Or free to roam beyond the Wall with his bff, his really good boy 👻, and adoring wildling fan club? (Not to mention girls that will “claw each other’s eyes out” to get naked with him, especially since there’s probably a favorable ratio after all the wildling casualties in the BoB and Battle of WF.)

      The thought that Jon becomes King Beyond the Wall, or just bugged out of CB, is appealing.

      The thing is, if the show wanted to establish that poor Jon was marooned at the Wall, why not show him brooding and looking wistfully from CB as Tormund and the free folk depart?

      And there really wasn’t any reason for him to ride off with the free folk if he wasn’t going to be hanging with them. It’s not as if they couldn’t find their way without him. They didn’t need a tour guide.

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    120. Adrianacandle,

      I think it was somewhat vague, but it looked to me like Jon was leaving the NW to go live elsewhere with the Wildlings. It was the only conclusion I could draw based on what we saw play out in the last scenes.

      He’s leading an entire group of wildlings (both adults and children) away from the NW, all of whom have their bags packed.

      The last shot we saw of Jon, he looked back at Castle Black as the door closed behind him. IMO, there’s no way any of this signals he’s staying at Castle Black.

      I suppose it’s possible that he’s just escorting them, but they already have Tormund there, so it seems a bit unnecessary to me to have Jon simply escort them somewhere beyond the wall. IMO, he’s leaving the NW and going to live with the Wildlings elsewhere.

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    121. Adrianacandle,

      … And another thing: I’m not sure how Jon or the Watch would do any good at the Wall to “defend the realms” or “keep the Others forced back.”

      On the show at least, a huge section of the Wall is missing; and even if it could be replaced, there’d be no CotF magic spell to make it impervious.

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    122. Ten Bears,

      I think the “sentence” that Jon received from Bran was really nothing more than a platitude used to placate Greyworm/Unsullied and get them to go away without starting a war or killing Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Ten Bears,

      The thing is, if the show wanted to establish that poor Jon was marooned at the Wall, why not show him brooding and looking wistfully from CB as Tormund and the free folk depart?

      And there really wasn’t any reason for him to ride off with the free folk if he wasn’t going to be hanging with them. It’s not as if they couldn’t find their way without him. They didn’t need a tour guide.

      Jon could be helping them find a new home as many of their homes were likely destroyed by the White Walkers, as Hardhome was.

      Yet still, based on Jon’s garb, the scripts calling him a Night’s Watchmen, and that I doubt Jon’s character is going to ignore his sentence, especially considering the weight of what he did, something he’ll feel forever (I talked about that above. Not only the personal cost to Jon, kinslaying is very serious, especially in the eyes of the Old Gods. Jon gave up Winterfell because of the Old Gods, I don’t think he’s going to ditch his sentence after kinslaying), I don’t think he’s going to up and ditch immediately after he arrives. As for Jon choosing to be free and roam, I don’t think Jon’s looking at it that way. I agree with Tron that Jon is broken, he’s not the same Jon who got with Ygritte all those years ago.

      I think the show wanted to end on a somewhat hopeful note — hope for spring, hope for a new life for these wildlings, hope for new generations and this new unity. I found that quoted piece of scripting direction pretty significant in how it represents change: “There is no suspicion in those faces, and no awe. Only trust. The Night’s Watch used to hunt them, but they will follow this Night’s Watchman.”

      I think it’s a visual that this feud is over and they are one people now — a Night’s Watchmen in a sea of wildlings leading them to a new home.

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    124. Ten Bears: … And another thing: I’m not sure how Jon or the Watch would do any good at the Wall to “defend the realms” or “keep the Others forced back.”

      On the show at least, a huge section of the Wall is missing; and even if it could be replaced, there’d be no CotF magic spell to make it impervious.

      There’s speculation that Jon and Dany will do the AA/Nissa Nissa thing and he will be what’s needed to keep the Others back in the books, he’ll have that magic or power to keep them forced away. I can link you to the video in which Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson talk about their speculations for the end of the book series if you like in which they talk about this.

      It’s just book ending speculation based on what happens in 8×06.

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    125. Ten Bears,

      Sounds like a good job for a ginger!

      In all seriousness, I was wondering that too. Who’s being tasked with rebuilding the Wall? Are they even trying to rebuild it? Is there even a NW left at all right now?

      I think I recall Tyrion saying that “The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men”, so I believe the Wall/the Night’s Watch still exists, but it basically sounds like a penal colony with nothing for them to do now. What could possibly go wrong?

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    126. Mr Derp,

      Yeah, platitude is probably right. It’s just that lots of fans (logically) felt that Grey Worm or the Dothraki would have executed Jon on the spot for killing their Queen, and would never be satisfied with exile.

      The show should have followed its own canon and had Jon’s fate determined in a trial by combat.

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    127. Adrianacandle: Yet still, based on Jon’s garb, the scripts calling him a Night’s Watchmen, and that I doubt Jon’s character is going to ignore his sentence, especially considering the weight of what he did, something he’ll feel forever (I talked about that above. Not only the personal cost to Jon, kinslaying is very serious, especially in the eyes of the Old Gods. Jon gave up Winterfell because of the Old Gods, I don’t think he’s going to ditch his sentence after kinslaying), I don’t think he’s going to up and ditch immediately after he arrives. As for Jon choosing to be free and roam, I don’t think Jon’s looking at it that way. I agree with Tron that Jon is broken, he’s not the same Jon who got with Ygritte all those years ago.

      I think that Jon has no allegiance to the world south of the wall any longer. He’s been banished, denied and disenfranchised in every way.

      Jon’s future is with the Wildlings. Not to guide them back north, as they certainly don’t need a guide, and not to be their king, as they don’t have one, but simply to become a member of the tribe, if a highly valued one. From here on, he’ll live quietly and die unknown, but probably happier than he’d ever been before.

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    128. Ten Bears:
      Mr Derp,

      Yeah, platitude is probably right. It’s just that lots of fans (logically) felt that Grey Worm or the Dothraki would have executed Jon on the spot for killing their Queen, and would never be satisfied with exile.

      The show should have followed its own canon and had Jon’s fate determined in a trial by combat.

      I actually had a harder time understanding the Dothraki response to Dany’s death.

      The Dothraki were fanatically loyal to Dany. They saw her rise from fire twice and they followed her across the Narrow Sea to win Westeros for her. In season 6, Dany made them her blood riders, her sworn protectors. If a khal is killed his/her blood riders live to avenge them, so surely when Jon killed Dany her blood riders would be honorbound to kill Jon. So, how did they react to Dany’s death? They did nothing. They walked right past him at the docks.

      Having said that, I agree. I don’t entirely understand why Greyworm hesitated at all to kill Jon. It seemed a bit odd that Greyworm waited for Jon’s family’s approval to kill him.

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    129. Mr Derp,

      As I told Ten Bears, he could be helping them find a new home since their homes are likely all gone.

      I think it’s fair to differ in these opinions of what Jon’s ultimate fate is but those script details and Jon’s Lord Commander cloak indicated to me that he’s sticking with the Watch. That, coupled with Adam Feldman’s explanation, who I admittedly do have quite a bit of respect for based on the Meereenese Blog essays and getting GRRM’s thumbs up for his Dany essay, I don’t see Jon up and leaving his sentence as soon as he arrives. Even if Jon’s sentence was just a ruse, which I don’t entirely agree with, Jon committed kinslaying. In the books, Jon is pretty religious and kinslaying is about the worst thing you can do. So it’s hard for me to think Jon will shrug off his official sentence as a result.

      Jon’s look back at Castle Black could be interpreted a number of different ways. It was my impression and opinion that he was escorting them to find a new place to live but he, himself, was still with the Watch.

      I definitely get the King Beyond the Wall thing is more appealing, and it is, but in my opinion, I can’t see Jon ditching his sentence under these circumstances.

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    130. Mr Derp: I think that Jon has no allegiance to the world south of the wall any longer. He’s been banished, denied and disenfranchised in every way.

      Jon’s future is with the Wildlings. Not to guide them back north, as they certainly don’t need a guide, and not to be their king, as they don’t have one, but simply to become a member of the tribe, if a highly valued one. From here on, he’ll live quietly and die unknown, but probably happier than he’d ever been before.

      I expect Jon will feel a duty to his sentence, if for spiritual reasons rather than legality, and feeling the weight of what he’s done. I agree with Tron’s assessment of Jon being Jon the Broken now so I don’t think he’ll be happier than he ever was before — too much has happened, too much loss, too much pain, I think Jon is forever damaged (a little like Frodo?) — but I think the Far North would be the best place for him.

      Maybe Jon doesn’t even need to stay at Castle Black to still be part of the Watch. Rangers didn’t spend much time at the forts manning the Wall. Maybe he just needs to keep his vows and he’ll wander the Far North, spending his remaining days with the free folk and returning to Castle Black every now and then.

      But I agree it’ll be a quiet life.

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    131. Adrianacandle,

      You could be right, but it’s not like the Wildlings need Jon’s help to find a new place. They can do that on their own.

      Besides, that last shot of Jon looking back at the Wall wistfully as it closes behind him is a pretty strong statement that he’s not going back to Castle Black. It’s the look of someone who’s not coming back.

      I also don’t think Tormund would be ok with Jon living in an abandoned ruin with a currently irrelevant purpose staying all alone to punish himself. Tormund would never stand for that.

      Also, given that it’s the Northern border of The North, wouldn’t The Wall be part of The North and not The Six Kingdoms? In which case, it’s under the rule of Sansa and she can just be all, “okay, Jon, you’re pardoned” and that’s that without Greyworm ever knowing? I’m genuinely not sure about this part.

      Jon was already LC and his men killed him for doing the right thing. Jon also had to kill his lover in order to do the right thing. I believe any illusions he ever had about helping to achieve a greater good died with Dany and her turn to super-villainy, IMO.

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    132. Mr Derp,

      Jon has maps, so that might help! 😉 But I think it’s the visual that was important (to me). Wildlings and a Night’s Watchmen moving toward a thawing land, indicating change and a time of spring and hope.

      I interpreted Jon’s look back as looking back at the place that has put him through hell and now he’s helping lead a people to better future, one away from all the politics and corruption of Westeros.

      I think Jon can still be part of the Watch and hold his vows but can still spend much of his time among the free folk. Rangers spent most of their time beyond the Wall.

      Also, given that it’s the Northern border of The North, wouldn’t The Wall be part of The North and not The Six Kingdoms? In which case, it’s under the rule of Sansa and she can just be all, “okay, Jon, you’re pardoned” and that’s that without Greyworm ever knowing?

      I was wondering what jurisdiction the Wall falls under…

      But even if Sansa pardoned Jon and his exile was legally lifted, I think it goes beyond legality into the spiritual, ala the Old Gods, for Jon. Not that Jon has to spend all his time in an abandoned ruin like CB and self-flagellate but I think he’d feel a duty to stay part of the Night’s Watch as his punishment. I do think part of Jon was destroyed with killing Dany, part of him is forever broken. He won’t hold any lands, titles, father no children, etc. I don’t think that means he must stay at Castle Black all the time. He can still range and spend time with the wildlings, living a quiet life as there’s nothing to fight now.

      I don’t think it’s about the greater good, I think it’s more about Jon’s faith and Jon holds pretty strongly with the Old Gods, who view kingslaying as the worst.

      But I don’t think that’s touched on the show that much, or not as strongly as it is in the books where it’s a very big deal.

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    133. Adrianacandle,

      Well, okay, if Jon’s going to abide by his sentence, then the show could have at least had Arya give him a lift from KL to the Wall on her direwolf ship.

      (Did the NW have a navy? I thought Jon was getting ready to board a ship to be escorted to the Wall in the S8e6 dock scene…)

      Arya sailing off with Jon to bring him north to the Wall would have made a nice bookend scene to the concluding segment of S4e10…

      at 0:40
      Arya: “I want to go north, to the Wall!”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut1VEoOZ2hA

      ———-

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    134. Ten Bears: (Did the NW have a navy? I thought Jon was getting ready to board a ship to be escorted to the Wall in the S8e6 dock scene…)

      Eastwatch-by-the-sea has a port! And they’ve also used ships to sail to Hardhome, didn’t they? In the books, they definitely have rangers traveling by sea. But I don’t know what kind of shape Eastwatch is in now….

      Arya sailing off with Jon to bring him north to the Wall would have made a nice bookend scene to the concluding segment of S4e10…

      I agree. I like to think that after Arya makes a first pass of the unknown lands to the west of Westeros, she returns to a thawed Far North and visits with Jon 🙂

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    135. Ten Bears: Did somebody find a map shop to buy him some?

      I believe every manned castle has a stock of maps and books. Castle Black would definitely have some. Wildlings weren’t taught to read and write (“Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him”) but Jon would know how. He definitely has some map skills in the books with Stannis.

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    136. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Jon & co. borrowed Stannis’s ships to go to Hardhome. Maybe they kept them?

      Well, Stannis is defeated not long after and since Shireen and Selyse met their own ends just before Stannis, there’s nobody Jon could pass the boats to so… maaaaybe?

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    137. Adrianacandle: I believe every manned castle has a stock of maps and books. Castle Black would definitely have some. Wildlings weren’t taught to read and write (“Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him”) but Jon would know how. He definitely has some map skills in the books with Stannis.

      The Wildlings were living North of the Wall for years without a map, so I doubt they really need one. Ygritte new where she was without a map back in season 2 when she was captured by Jon and escaped. Besides, Tormund and any other Wildlings probably remember where they used to live, or, at the very least, wouldn’t have a hard time finding a place to make a new home. They can grab up any prime real estate North of the Wall before the prices go up and gentrification sets in!

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    138. Adrianacandle,

      Sorry. That comment about a map shop was intended as an allusion to the Hound in S4e3:

      Arya: “Where are we?”
      Sandor: “Near Fairmarket, I think.”
      Arya: “You think? You don’t have a map?”
      Sandor: “No, I don’t have a map.”
      Arya: “Maybe we should get one.”
      Sandor: “Just point out the next map shop you see and I’ll buy you one.”

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    139. Mr Derp,

      Admittedly, the map comment was a bit flippant on my part — I don’t think the writers were actually thinking about maps, Jon’s map-reading skills, and whatnot. My second comment about maps was to answer where Jon would get them from. But I think it helps to have another set of eyes when scoping out new places! My sister and I are house hunting for her and she wants me to be a second nose to detect any weird smells! 🙂

      In all seriousness, I think that final shot with Jon and the wildlings was more about the visual of the last of the free folk united with the Night’s Watch in peacetime moving toward the future.

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    140. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Sorry. That comment about a map shop was intended as an allusion to the Hound in S4e3:

      Arya: “Where are we?”
      Sandor: “Near Fairmarket, I think.”
      Arya: “You think? You don’t have a map?”
      Sandor: “No, I don’t have a map.”
      Arya: “Maybe we should get one.”
      Sandor: “Just point out the next map shop you see and I’ll buy you one.”

      Oooooh!! God, I’m dense. Sister #3 made a joke yesterday and it was only an hour ago that I understood the punchline when it suddenly came to me. Over 24 hours later.

      By the way, do you recall all these quotes straight from memory? If so, nice 😮

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    141. Mr Derp: I actually had a harder time understanding the Dothraki response to Dany’s death.

      The Dothraki were fanatically loyal to Dany.They saw her rise from fire twice and they followed her across the Narrow Sea to win Westeros for her.In season 6, Dany made them her blood riders, her sworn protectors.If a khal is killed his/her blood riders live to avenge them, so surely when Jon killed Dany her blood riders would be honorbound to kill Jon.So, how did they react to Dany’s death?They did nothing.They walked right past him at the docks.

      Having said that, I agree.I don’t entirely understand why Greyworm hesitated at all to kill Jon.It seemed a bit odd that Greyworm waited for Jon’s family’s approval to kill him.

      I wondered about all that too.

      Danny was killed and her entire army just shrugged.

      hahhhaaaaa!

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    142. Mango,

      Drogo was dying and his army abandoned him. All the khals burned alive and the khalasar knelt to their killer. The Dothraki leaving Danerys is consistent, typical Dothraki behavior.

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    143. Adrianacandle,

      You take words far too literally Adriana. (sorry TB!)
      You can read a book and see just words; but Martin used a lot of symbolism in his book. Everything works symbolically and signifies something else or something more than the just the words. You either see it or you don’t.
      People can’t be parents of dragons; and dragons can’t be parents of people. That’s clear.
      This is why Dany has to choose. This is why she is called mhysa, mother, and Dany has to choose to either be mother of dragons or mother of people. Martin says in reality that she can’t have both.
      It’s not about whether she can have babies or not. It’s not that simple. It’s about who she chooses to be, a conqueror with fire and blood (mother of dragons) or a queen (mother of people).

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    144. Efi,

      “Why sorry?”
      – Grey Worm

      You used “literally” correctly, i.e., as distinguished from symbolically, metaphorically, or figuratively. (If you had written something like “Dany literally turned into a dragon,” then I’d be whinging.)

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    145. Efi,

      The thing with symbolism is that symbols are dependant on the value the author/artist/community/culture/etc. assigns to them and symbolism leaves a lot of room open for interpretation. It’s not quite clear, especially in the case of ASOIAF. GRRM hasn’t finished his books yet so some of these connections are still pretty fuzzy (thus the thousands upon thousands of theories) and are more speculative and interpretative — like the idea that Dany is unable to be both a mother of dragons or a mother of people (you said, “Martin says in reality that she can’t have both[…]” — is this based on your reading of the text or a statement GRRM has made?).

      But like with foreshadowing, symbolism can signify different things to different people — we don’t know what exactly is being foreshadowed until that something’s been written. For example, the fact that quite a few readers think Dany may have a child — including one of GRRM’s own editors — tells me that these things can be interpreted differently. Your idea might be right, maybe it is meant to signify Dany can’t be both! Or it might not be meant to symbolize that. We don’t know yet.

      I went to art school for seven years, two of those years were spent in a graduate program, and symbolism is a big thing in art and interpreting it. A piece can be read entirely differently depending on the person. If the artist does make a statement or it’s been based off of a specific culture in which there is a clear connection between symbols and meanings, I tend to go by what that says — but even then, people (including art historians) can disagree over the exact meaning of the symbolism in a piece because symbolism leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

      In this case, GRRM hasn’t finished his books so it’s hard to be certain of those connections between symbol and meaning. Unless it’s something stated by GRRM (or by somebody who has worked with GRRM, such as D&D, a director who GRRM has made privy to some of his plans, etc.), I’m hesitant to be sure of these connections.

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    146. Adrianacandle,

      I always speak about my own opinions. Like with symbolism, you either see it or you don’t. And no matter whether Martin ever finishes the books there will be those who deny the symbolism and the deeper meaning, so nothing will be resolved with the ending of the books. And among those who see it and read between the lines there will be no unanimity. That’s what literary discussion is. No one has to agree with anyone else and that’s valid too.

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    147. Efi,

      Oh, I think GRRM is definitely using symbolism but what that symbolism means is pretty up in the air. At this point, we’re trying to use it to figure out the way the books will go and if GRRM ever finishes, the way it goes down will at least be resolved. For example, we’ll know if Dany ever has a child or not this way because this will be determined by what happens in the final two books.

      But especially at this point in time, there’s nothing definitive or concrete about these interpretations unless something’s been confirmed. That’s what I’m saying.

      I know how literary discussions go and I’m not denying there’s symbolism, I’m questioning what it means.

      You said:

      People can’t be parents of dragons; and dragons can’t be parents of people.
      That’s clear.
      This is why Dany has to choose. This is why she is called mhysa, mother, and Dany has to choose to either be mother of dragons or mother of people.
      Martin says in reality that she can’t have both.

      And I’m disagreeing that the text definitively means, “People can’t be parents of dragons; and dragons can’t be parents of people. That’s clear.” It’s an interpretation, it’s an opinion, but this doesn’t confirm Dany will never have a child.

      That’s not me saying that there’s no way this interpretation is true. It might be! But it might not exactly be true either. We don’t know yet.

      Like it’s not certain Dany will never have a child. And it’s not certain Dany will have a child. I don’t really care either way but you said this connection was clear, I disagree. It may be clear for you, but it’s not a concrete or confirmed connection.

      Reading between the lines is tricky too because I feel that is even more interpretative and can lead down a slippery slope, ascribing double-meanings to ideas/dialogue/passages that may not be intended to have a double-meaning in the first place. And then it goes on from there, with people building theories based on these interpretations. That’s where I personally hit a wall.

      At the end of the day, unless it’s from a verifiable source (for me), I can’t take these connections between symbolism and meaning as concrete. And the same goes for my own opinion and my own interpretation (like here with what I think that final visual represents with Jon and the wildlings. That’s only my interpretation, it’s not definitive!). There are theories that sway me more than others, that I feel have more evidence, but even here, I can’t say anything with 100% certainty about a piece unless it’s come from a verifiable source.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Efi,

      I’m not disputing what you wrote. However, could you be more specific about the symbolism you’re talking about? As a non-book reader, I’m genuinely curious.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Adrianacandle,

      I don’t think that’s an opinion.
      A human doesn’t give birth to dragons. A dragon doesn’t give birth to humans. It’s very literal.
      The significance in-context is metaphorical. Dany is metaphorically “mother of dragons” and she is called to become “mother of people”. She can bear a living child, but she can’t literally be “mother of people” because she can’t give birth to all the people –she can only bear a child every nine months, but there are thousands of people that depend on her and call her “mother”.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Efi,

      I don’t think that’s an opinion.
      A human doesn’t give birth to dragons. A dragon doesn’t give birth to humans. It’s very literal.
      The significance in-context is metaphorical. Dany is metaphorically “mother of dragons” and she is called to become “mother of people”. She can bear a living child, but she can’t literally be “mother of people” because she can’t give birth to all the people –she can only bear a child every nine months, but there are thousands of people that depend on her and call her “mother”

      I’m sorry, I misunderstood you when you said, “People can’t be parents of dragons; and dragons can’t be parents of people. That’s clear.” I thought you were calling Dany a dragon and therefore, she couldn’t be the parent of a human child. I’m very sorry about my misunderstanding.

      Here, you’re right. We can’t give birth to anything that’s not our species and no one woman can give birth to thousands of people. That’d be very very painful. And yes, her titles are metaphorical.

      I was referring to this as an opinion/speculation (“This is why Dany has to choose. This is why she is called mhysa, mother, and Dany has to choose to either be mother of dragons or mother of people. Martin says in reality that she can’t have both.”) as this is speculating a choice Dany may have with the idea being she can’t have both. That this is the reason she can’t be the mother of a child if she’s already the mother of dragons (if that’s what you mean?). This is what I’m referring to as speculation. Unless GRRM has made a statement about this? I could have definitely missed something.

      I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding you.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Ten Bears,

      Thank you. Same to you. Well I think that I want to have a drink with all of you here. 😀

      Adrianacandle,

      True but I think in the books the king of the seven kingdoms will be resolved first (I think the Iron Throne storyline is resolved at the beginning of book 7 so that we can have the policies getting into place), and Bran could be the final King because the King of Winter is the last King to be chosen.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Efi,

      I still believe that Bran will be KitN. Sansa will be

      Queen of the seven Kingdoms I still think she will end up with Young Griff later on that.

      , I believe that the burning of KL

      Will be the fault of Euron but Dany gets the blame, she is too blame it was her dragon

      , Nissa Nissa will be her dead. I also think that Dany and YG story will end different than we think

      I believe they will work together in the end, and she will put her claim down, she doesn’t care anymore if he is the real deal, why? Because that’s what Dany is fighting for, that the people choose who will sit on the throne and who is good for the people, She sees that in YG, even if he is not the real deal see sees that. I think the whole visions of Dany is more stalling her in the east instead of not trusting those people, if she doesn’t trust who she is warned about she will never trust Tyrion, which we will expect she does. And Euron wanting to control a dragon by Dark Magic is there for a reason.

        Quote  Reply

    153. kevin1989,

      Thanks, Kevin! Btw, I’d love to have a drink with you too and talk in person about all these theories 🙂

      True but I think in the books the king of the seven kingdoms will be resolved first (I think the Iron Throne storyline is resolved at the beginning of book 7 so that we can have the policies getting into place), and Bran could be the final King because the King of Winter is the last King to be chosen.

      Perhaps, I wouldn’t surprised if maybe the timeline was switched up a little, but I don’t really think that’s what D&D meant when they said GRRM revealed that Bran would be the final king. I can see where you’re going with that but I think they mean more than simply sequentially. I think they mean the king (like how Margaery Tyrell was all like, “I don’t want to be a queen, I want to be THE queen” ;D) — the king of the throne everybody’s been fighting over for all these years. The Northern throne wasn’t really a coveted seat of power throughout the series but the Iron Throne was.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Ten Bears:
      Sansa: “Don’t listen to Davos!“He’s your most trusted advisor now? Because he secured 62 men from a ten-year old?”
      Sansa: “I won the Battle of the Bastards! I wrote a ravengram!”

      🦅 Raven #43: “Squawk! Squawk!
      (Translation: “No, I won the Battle of the Bastards! I delivered the scroll!)

      Ghost of Wun Wun: “What am I, chopped liver?”

        Quote  Reply

    155. Ten Bears,

      True! Without a Wun-Wun, Ramsay would still be comfortably inside Winterfell 🙂

      But anyway, I think you solved it: the raven won the Battle of the Bastards.

        Quote  Reply

    156. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      And maybe the HPNN is who coined the in-universe battle name “Battle of the Bastards” 😉

      Coming to you live with our chief correspondent H. Pie:

      Q: “How did you know it was a ‘Battle’ of the Bastards?”
      H. Pie: “Cuz ________”

        Quote  Reply

    157. Ten Bears,

      I want to hear his answer!

      People think Bran has all these mystical powers to see everything, right? But is it really Hot Pie who has the power, who can reach into Milky Way Galaxy Earth 2016 AD’s timeline and see Twitter…?

        Quote  Reply

    158. Adrianacandle,

      yes, I really like his view on Dany’s storyline. Personally I wished that Martin would have sticked with his first draft. I mean having for instance Feast end with her with giving up her ideals for peace (the marriage) would have been an amazing ending for Feast. And Dance starting with everything after that. Then we could have had the ending of Dance we should have. (Feast is the shortest one, it could have added 300 pages, meaning Dance would have 300 pages of room).

      As for Dany’s story. I believe the Sons of the Harpy doesn’t exist. We never saw them. we heard stories that are told by one person, the shavepate. Who I don’t trust. He made up the stories that a group is behind everything. But I don’t believe it. For me all those deaths feel like “everyday life”, look at the tv. Murders happening in countries/cities who are free. One drink to much, there is a bar fight and a murder happen. Dany’s peace was there already from day 1. There is no harpy, there are just random murders. Look at every murder case that is being told, there is an explanation for everyone what could have happened.

      So what about that peace that has happened? Well I believe murders still happened and the Green Grace swept them under the table, covered them up. She wants that peace to happen. And the people of Meereen follow what she says to a degree. She speaks for the gods. If she tells the people: The ones who keep murder, live in hell for eternity. (Only a bit more like the Meereen people believe with their faith), they will listen to that.

      So what was the thing that could destroy the peace: Dragons. Isn’t it strange that Drogon is out all that time. And what made Drogon come out of a sudden to the fighting pits. Wasn’t that pigs? And wasn’t there something about a family who hold a pig farm that somehow was important (can’t really remember what that was but there was something about pigs). Well I think Drogon was kept there, being fed pigs thats why he came to the dragonpit.

      There’s also something that suggest there is more at play. Who was the person who warned Dany about the Bloody Flux coming to town, but he didn’t talk about the bloody flux at all, what he did state was: It’s burning. Not the city is burning, but it’s burning. He also was there days before Quentyn arrived. How is that even possible, didn’t Quentyn come the fast road with horses and food. While that guy was walking without food. And didn’t he come from a different direction than Astapor? Well my guess he was talking about the place where Drogon was. That building was burning by Drogon.

      Why is this important? Because it shows that the Green Grace and the ones we now believe are the “baddies” who are betraying Dany are in fact the ones that she should trust. There was always a peace, they were always at her side. But the person she trusted the most the shavepate is being shown to be the one who is betraying her, he tries to gain power by the harpy story. I think what result this is that 1. Dany learns not to trust what she is told (her past?) and 2. She stops trusting Quaithe and comes to see who Quiathe really is. So the thing we suspect will happen in KL will be turned on it’s head.

      Another proof that the Harpy never existed is the way “they” act before and after Hizdahr is imprisoned. Before it feels like disorganized organisation, who murder random (sometimes days not etc) (which even up that they never existed at all), after that somehow they changed to the most organized organisation of Essos, like it were soldiers who are doing the deeds (under the order of the shavepate maybe?). Even Barristan states something is off with the way the harpy acts. And who is whispering in his ear and take away that doubt he has, the shavepate, the shavepate puts Barristan on a path without doubt, the path the shavepate want’s Barristan to move.

      So that’s what I think. The Harpy is empty air. The sign of peace, it’s not what Dany thinks it is. It’s a story that is told to change the balance of power in Meereen.

        Quote  Reply

    159. kevin1989,

      I’ll think on what you said! I think the Harpy is real but you do take my mind into other dimensions with your questioning of what memories/factions are real.

      Next time I’m on my way to the Netherlands, I’ll mention it on here and we’ll talk about these theories over a bellini!

        Quote  Reply

    160. Adrianacandle,

      True the most logical explanation is of course that it’s real. I read some years ago a theory that it was not real, and I read the books again back then and I saw what he was saying, the only one that talked about was the shavepate, who ever every time he suggest the harpy exist tell Dany should use her dragons. And I just don’t trust him the shavepate and somehow with my last read I really trust Hizdahr and the Green Grace.

      And it’s something Martin would write (A bit like Dany ending of season 2, it’s all empty all a lie).

      That would be nice, and what’s a bellini?

        Quote  Reply

    161. kevin1989: True the most logical explanation is of course that it’s real. I read some years ago a theory that it was not real, and I read the books again back then and I saw what he was saying, the only one that talked about was the shavepate, who ever every time he suggest the harpy exist tell Dany should use her dragons. And I just don’t trust him the shavepate and somehow with my last read I really trust Hizdahr and the Green Grace.

      So it seems like The Shavepit was trying to manipulate Dany into her worst instincts in order to destroy the peace she, the Meereenese, and the Yunkai built? I … yeah, could see that happening. I think it might make the story too complex but I could see that as an external force tempting Dany’s worst impulses, impulses that she consciously does her utmost to repress while her patience is being tested.

      A bellini is great!! It’s a drink definitely on the sweeter side, often more slushy-like, made with Prosecco and white peachpurée or nectar. It’s my favourite drink, especially when it comes with a sugary sour peach candy on the rim! What’s your drink if you have one?

        Quote  Reply

    162. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Q: “How did you know it was a ‘Battle’ of the Bastards?”
      H. Pie: “Cuz they got armor on.”

      (LOL)

      Q: “And their bastardry, Hot Pie, any insider info you can share on that? Who did the honorable and married Ned Stark hook up with? Rumour has it that a woman looking like Ned Stark’s bastard, going by the name ‘Wylla’, came into your bakery once for a wolf pie.”

        Quote  Reply

    163. Adrianacandle,

      As if we needed any proof that truth is stranger than fiction, or that this country is at risk of going full-on Joffrey, here’s a (true) news item:

      CBS News reports that GOP Senators have been warned by Trump team: “Vote against the president and your head will be on a pike.”

        Quote  Reply

    164. Ten Bears: Adrianacandle,

      As if we needed any proof that truth is stranger than fiction, or that this country is at risk of going full-on Joffrey, here’s a (true) news item:

      CBS News reports that GOP Senators have been warned by Trump team: “Vote against the president and your head will be on a pike.”

      I actually had to google that because I couldn’t believe that was real! And it is! Good god!!!

        Quote  Reply

    165. Adrianacandle,

      Well more like, getting power which he got in the end. He become the leader of the Brazen Beast. The biggest army of Meereen, he doesn’t want to destroy the peace of course, more stirring up the pot while getting what he wants.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOqNoDYwyqs&list=PLCsx_OFEYH6uMuwfCY6qPp0S_OHs3qgVG

      If I remember right it was this theory (Don’t have much time today to verify, it’s either from him or from altshiftX)

      Well with my next read of feast and Dance I will look if I see some underlying things GRRM put in. Still more into gaming right now, I think I will read them next month.

        Quote  Reply

    166. kevin1989: Well more like, getting power which he got in the end. He become the leader of the Brazen Beast. The biggest army of Meereen, he doesn’t want to destroy the peace of course, more stirring up the pot while getting what he wants.

      Oooooh, okay. Yeah, I’m not familiar with this theory. I’ve watched most of the AltShiftX videos so I don’t think it comes from him? (Could be totally wrong there though)

      Will give that video a watch later!

      Well with my next read of feast and Dance I will look if I see some underlying things GRRM put in. Still more into gaming right now, I think I will read them next month.

      I’m into Age of Empire (Asian Dynasties) for stress relief!!! I am desperate to get the multiplayer working because I’m so bored playing against the computer.

      *It becomes anti-stress relief when it’s my city being conquered and I chicken out before my town is slaughtered. Cmmd + Option + Escape!!!! It’s just too bad the game “quits” on me whenever I’m losing 😉

        Quote  Reply

    167. Ten Bears,

      I still cannot believe that people keep falling for it. But the worse part is that in the end for the common folk it doesn’t really matter that much in America with the 2 party system. I’m glad I live in a country where you can vote for around 10/15 parties, and in the end every vote counts (instead of the whole winner takes it all in a state even if it’s just 50,1% or in america’s case some states are won with merely 47% or something).
      And in the end every vote is put into office, every party who at least has one seat (150 seats are being divided) then the biggest party tries to make a coalition to get at least 76 seats filled (else you get a minority-cabinet which is not really favored and makes ruling difficult). This system is better because at the end of the day there isn’t 2 parties making up what happen in the country like in the USA. And even when your party is not in the coalition they could get some things through (if they can convince some ruling members to vote like they do), like in our country one of the parties who weren’t ruling made sure healthcare costs weren’t risen.

      But all for the country of freedom.

      Back to the whole trump thing: Didn’t he state that his voters would still vote for him even if he murder somebody live on television, it was on his twitter in his first year if I remember right.

      And I found it strange that when a politician commits a crime that it goes to an impeachment investigation like is happening now and political partymembers are deciding if he did it or not.
      In my country it’s the judge who decided that, not some people who have reasons to convict or not to convict the president because of political reasons.

        Quote  Reply

    168. Ten Bears:
      kevin1989,

      “Brazen Beast”? Who or what is that? Is this ASOIAF or politics related? 🙄

      From the ASOIAF wiki!

      The Brazen Beasts are the new city watch army of Meereen, formed on the orders of Queen Daenerys Targaryen in 300 AC. The Brazen Beasts are made up of shavepates and freedmen, and are of Meereenese birth. Skahaz mo Kandaq, who is also known as “the Shavepate”, commands the Brazen Beasts under Daenerys’s rule.

      The name always reminds me of the Brazen bull.

        Quote  Reply

    169. kevin1989,

      ”But the worse part is that in the end for the common folk it doesn’t really matter that much in America with the 2 party system.”

      I don’t necessarily agree with that. ⬆️ Sadly, everything else you wrote has merit.

        Quote  Reply

    170. Adrianacandle,

      Re: “Orange Walder”:
      I was goofing around last January during the hiatus…. I think I posted this Jan. 19th of last year.
      I covered most of it in spoiler-coding so as not to offend anyone.
      In retrospect, I would like to change the ending. Any suggestions anyone?

      ——————

      (Orange Walder alone at his desk scarfing hamburger.

      Waitress enters, carrying platter with a wall of stacked burgers bisecting a river of ketchup)

      Orange Walder: “Not one of mine, are you?”

      Waitress: “No my Lord.”

      Orange Walder: “Didn’t think so. Too witty.”

      (Tries to grab her by the p***y; she deftly dodges)

      Orange Walder: “Where are my damn moron sons? Don Jr. and Eric promised to be here by midday.”

      Waitress: “They’re here my Lord.”

      Orange Walder (looking around): “What are they doing, skimming from their charities? Tell them to come here. Now.”

      Waitress: “But they’re already here my Lord.
      (Motioning to half-eaten burger)
      “Here, my Lord.”

      (Orange Walder lifts up bun, revealing small mushroom-shaped appendage)

      Waitress: “They weren’t easy to carve. Especially Don Jr.”

      Orange Walder (initially stunned; but then wolfs down rest of burger anyway): “This is really good!”

      [Off-screen voice of chef: “The secret is marinating the phallus before making the patty…“]

      (Waitress peels off her face mask as Orange Walder looks up at her)

      Waitress: “My name is Chelsea. I want you to know that. The last thing you’re ever going to see is a Clinton smiling down at you, as you…”

      Orange Walder: “Hold on. I like your style. Just what I need in a Secretary of Defense. A million rubles up front. Whadya say?”

        Quote  Reply

    171. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      Re: “Orange Walder”:
      I was goofing around last January during the hiatus…. I think I posted this Jan. 19th of last year.
      I covered most of it in spoiler-coding so as not to offend anyone.In retrospect, I would like to change the ending. Any suggestions anyone?

      Now I see! I missed that the first time around! I’m not good at endings, just at being depressed over them!

        Quote  Reply

    172. Adrianacandle,

      Brings back memories, age of empires/ age of mythology.

      I just finished the Witchers. And I only want to play god of war, then my ps4 is going to be sold. Then waiting for ps5 with last of us remastered version.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Ten Bears,

      he he he.

      Ten Bears,

      Well what I meant more is the reason why they vote for the parties. I mean I think what the difference between the two parties is if you choose liberate values or traditional (progressive or conservative). But many people vote for some party because of left/right reasons. One party doesn’t give financially what they want. They want a job, taking care of their families. But both parties are extremely right wing. You get conservative right or progressive right. And in the end both don’t really concern themselves what is happening to certain groups who feel left out. So I still believe there is a difference, but in the end there is a reason why both parties don’t want to abolish the 2 party system, because both would lose power when the greens/libertarians and others have a chance of at least one vote in the system.

        Quote  Reply

    174. kevin1989: Brings back memories, age of empires/ age of mythology.

      Yes yes, those are the games! It’s the only game I play currently right now — I’m limited to my Mac and if I play Sims, that will rob weeks of my life because every spare moment will be spent torturing my Sims in various ways (I really like to build graveyards).

      How was Witcher?

        Quote  Reply

    175. Adrianacandle,

      Somehow I really enjoyed it. It’s a strange RPG game, but I cared about the characters, and the story was pretty good, and I think one of the best RPG games I played.

      If you ever played Skyrim and you liked that. Witcher is a bit like that, but much much better. If Skyrim is a bad soap opera, Witcher is GoT.

      The only downside which is in fact a great feature is that the side-quests progressed with the main story, meaning if you go to far into the main quest, some side quests will automatically fail. That also mean when the main story is over, the game is really over.

        Quote  Reply

    176. Adrianacandle,

      Well, the thing is that witcher 1 and 2 I needed to play on my laptop. Only witcher 3 was on ps4 but all 3 games are on steam.

      I would recommend to make a steam account and wait till the next sale for witchers. (I bought 1 with 90% off and 2 with 70%)

      The only thing you should do is check if the games can be played on your system, I’m going to look up the site I used and is to be trusted. (link at the end).

      The only thing is witcher 1 gameplay is pretty basic and strange not the open way of playing that rpg is known off, that is better in 2 and even better in 3. But I recommend to play them. Why? Because then the story would serve better. There are changes in 2 and 3 that is in play because of choices in earlier games. And the story itself is better understand. Also the thing I liked is that in 1 and 2 you learn a woman that you have romantic relationship with, and in 3 you learn something and another woman comes into play which I think is the one you should end up with but because you known somebody else for 2 games it’s pretty hard choice to make, which I think is amazing.

      Only downside storywise is that in the first I disliked the how do you call that, something GoT also did, that sex is pretty loosely in the game, you can romance many people. (I only liked that personally in assasins creed odyssey because you know old greece).

      https://www.pcgamebenchmark.com/

      there’s a application that checks your pc what’s in it. And when searching for a game it shows if it can be played.

      I personally recommend to play this game with a controller (Look online how to add one but if you do play with one ask me for the right settings in steam).

      Oh and if you ever get a ps4 (or 5) I recommend Last of Us. That is my favorite game, and the story is just amazing. The only game I think is just perfect.

        Quote  Reply

    177. kevin1989,

      Yay!! I’m using my real name so expect to find somebody who shares a particular name with a certain Russian spy from Rocky & Bullwinkle… 🙁

      🙁

      🙁

      Hey, do you know any good guides on Witcher 1? I’m having a wicked hard time because my characters keep getting wounded or receiving misfortune cards and I don’t know what I’m doing T__T

        Quote  Reply

    178. Adrianacandle,

      Still not be able to add my comment.

      Edit: Guides.gamepressure I would recommend for witchers.

      I would also recommend to play easy, it are big games especially 3, and easy is already hard many times, it’s mostly features that are easier. Like with hard you can’t regenerate some ways that can be used with easy.

      Do you play with controller or keyboard?

        Quote  Reply

    179. kevin1989,

      Keyboard!

      Totally good with starting easy but I don’t really understand what I’m doing or what the various objects/functions do, how to use them, or how to avoid misfortune cards, the war advance track, etc. I’m looking for a guide but I’m finding it hard to come by.

      So I’m looking! Maybe I should go through the tutorials again in-game…

        Quote  Reply

    180. Adrianacandle,

      With witcher 1 I recommend the tutorial (well with all 3, every game the gameplay is upgraded and better).

      I also recommend the guide for multiple reasons:
      1. You don’t want to miss sidequest you want to do. I think with witcher 1 I did them all except 2 or 3 (some quests where you need to kill 10 monsters of a kind and sometimes I don’t want to search for them I only want to do them in between the other quests).
      2. Choices, sometimes you get a choice that could change a lot, for instance in chapter 1 there is a character you will have to make a choice: Life or die. Both have consequences. And personally I always want to make the right choice with that, that feels best for me in the long run. If I remember right in chapter 1 the best thing to do is saving that character, even if you think wait that person is bad right? But it’s not that black and white.
      That’s something I like with this game, it’s not that black and white. I don’t know if that’s already in the first, but sometimes you get a choice to save a monster, which sometimes is even the right choice. Yes you going to feel love for some monsters.
      also what I love is that the choices are really hard, for instance the first game, you need to make a choice at some point, choosing a group that is best labeled as “racists that wants to kill everyone who isn’t human” or a “terrorist group which seems to be the ones defending those non-humans, but they are terrorist the way they work” or not choosing either but that result into the end battle to be much more difficult.
      3. I also want to advice to look up a page (google is your friend) which explains every single important choice of the game. Especially when you play on pc all 3 games you don’t want to make a choice in the first game that makes the third game harder.
      4. Don’t concern the romantic cards, I didn’t. Personally I found it strange, there is a reason why this is only huge in the first game and not so much in the second and third.

      What you should know a bit is learning difference between:
      1. steel & silver sword (I don’t think silver comes in play until the end of the prologue)
      2. Fast and strong attacks. (this hack and slash is only in the first the second it’s more free and the third is just amazing)
      3. Learning the characters and monsters when they come into play.

        Quote  Reply

    181. kevin1989,

      Kevin!! Thank-you!!!! This helps a lot!

      And you also made me realize I had gotten the wrong game: I bought Witcher the Adventure Game as opposed to The Witcher (first version) so I think that solves a big problem 😀

        Quote  Reply

    182. kevin1989:
      Adrianacandle,

      Oh yes it’s called witcher enhanced edition if I remember right. Look at my profile at steam and you can see the 2 games I bough there.

      Yes! I only just realized last night after our chat and then I went to your profile to see that you also had this game! 😀

      The guides will make much more sense now! 🙂 🙂 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    183. Tron79,

      …I thought those Winterfell scenes were important. I quite enjoyed them (and I’m in the minority). I loved seeing Arya’s skill of human lie detector. I thought this was one of the best skills she picked up from her training at THOBAW. Becoming faceless came with the ability to have the other person see herself in your face. She became a mirror for Sansa so Sansa could see herself and be truthful about what she had done. Arya was giving her sister some tough love with the game of faces. Arya showed that she was still on Sansa’s side when she flipped the dagger back to her.”

      My problem was that if Arya was a “human lie detector” she would’ve seen through LF’s charade with Maester Wolkan, e.g., that LF was lying to Wolkan about Sansa wanting him to retrieve the letter.

        Quote  Reply

    184. Tron79,

      P.S. Also, I guess I was too weirded out by Arya musing to Sansa about taking her face to see what’d be like to be “Lady of WF,” to interpret Arya turning the dagger around and leaving it on the table as some kind of unspoken message that “she was still on Sansa’s side.”*

      As an unapologetic Arya fanboy, and as grateful as I am that Arya & Sandor got a satisfying completion to their story in S8 (albeit at the expense of a resonant Jon & Arya reunion and a hoped-for Arya & Dany bonding), Arya was unrecognizable to me in:
      – (a) the S7 WF FranticSansa vs. PsychoArya vs. LF “plot”; and
      – (b) the S8 xenophobic Arya (“Dany sucks,” and “Sansa’s the smartest person I’ve ever met”) WF scenes.

      However, I am NOT whinging. I don’t let two bumps in the road in a few episodes detract from my enjoyment of eight seasons and 73 episodes of dynamite scenes and storylines with my favorite character.

      —————
      * You wrote:

      I thought those Winterfell scenes were important. I quite enjoyed them (and I’m in the minority). I loved seeing Arya’s skill of human lie detector. I thought this was one of the best skills she picked up from her training at THOBAW. Becoming faceless came with the ability to have the other person see herself in your face. She became a mirror for Sansa so Sansa could see herself and be truthful about what she had done. Arya was giving her sister some tough love with the game of faces. Arya showed that she was still on Sansa’s side when she flipped the dagger back to her. Those scenes were the best part of Beyond the Wall for me. Do those scenes count towards the the episode thread count? Gotta go for now…”

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    185. mau,

      You can’t be serious. The broken man speech is excellent. The bran stuff is garbage.

      As for rewatching it… We’d just find more things that made no sense on every rewatch.

      That being said; Talking shit to the actors is kinda dumb. It’s not their fault.

      Alfie allen played his part well. He’s not responsible for the shitty scripts in the last 4 seasons.

        Quote  Reply

    186. When I saw the title of this article I knew it would be a popular thread! Bottom line though I find it incredibly sad that two popular actors, both of whom widely perceived to be very likeable and down to earth people, have to put up with crap like this down to a minor of the fan base being critical of the final season.

        Quote  Reply

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