Conleth Hill discusses Game of Thrones Season Five and more in a rare interview

Game-of-Thrones-Season-5-Varys-and-Tyrion

Vulture has managed to nab an interview with the elusive Conleth Hill, who is playing Varys, Master of Whisperers, on the show. Well, is that still his characters official position after the events of the past season? Time will tell, soon enough. Conleth himself remains, understandably, tight-lipped about the coming season, though the journalist does her best.

Watch out for mild spoilers, if you haven’t seen the Season Five trailer!

On his personal qualities that mesh well with his roles of various spy characters, he says:

Well, I’m pretty anonymous, and I think that would work in my favor. I don’t get recognized very much, which isn’t a complaint, you know? I would be a bit worried if I were recognized as Varys, because I don’t look like that normally. If I’m at a red-carpet event, they’ll recognize some of the other stars from Game of Thrones, but not me. I’m not recognized immediately. Normally, if I’m wearing a tuxedo, people think I’m a security person or a wine waiter, just because of the uniform, you know?

On the reasons for his apparent change of allegiance in the coming season, as evident from the trailer:

Um, because every individual is allowed to change their mind. And there are more stories in the book that aren’t being transferred to the screen, involving searches for an heir, and so it’s probably an element of what’s best dramatically and also how to accumulate his reasons. I think in times of war, and in terms of politics, people change their minds all the time. And something that seemed like a good idea at the time can be changed in a heartbeat. The order not to kill her came from someone, just as the order to kill her. And maybe that will come out in future episodes, so I don’t want to talk too much about it. That’s also my evasive way of going, “I don’t know!”

On his reputation as the funniest guy on set:

After Peter won the Emmy, I was calling him “Emmy” for a couple of days. Stupid things like that, which aren’t funny to people who weren’t there. “Is Emmy ready yet?” Just to say he’d changed since he won it, even though he hadn’t at all. I’m not constantly telling jokes or anything, I’m not Mr. Funny all the time, but why not have a laugh when you’re working?

Check out the full interview via the link for more, including why Varys and Tyrion get along well. The interview further touches on the actor’s role in Suits, his appearance in the finale of Foyle’s War, Laurence Fishburne, Henry Cavill, and other topics.

185 responses

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    1. Hodor!

      “And there are more stories in the book that aren’t being transferred to the screen, involving searches for an heir, and so it’s probably an element of what’s best dramatically and also how to accumulate his reasons.”

      I think this means YG is officially cut.

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    2. Jofrey’s Cunt: I think this means YG is officially cut.

      Well, we had already worked that out! However, YG never was going to be in Season 5 unless they drastically rewrote things to make YG relevant to the story and plots of Season 5. As Hill notes, he doesn’t know what Season 6 holds.

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    3. Wimsey,

      Well I wasn’t convinced just because of that line on the trailer,

      It could be that he was tricking Tyrion and then later reveal his true plans, and also because I never thought they would reveal his true plans in the first trailer. So if this is what he means with stories being cut, it just seems to me like a dumb move what they did in trailer, maybe to hype all the Daenerys fangirls.

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    4. Jofrey’s Cunt:
      Wimsey,

      Well I wasn’t convinced just because of that line on the trailer,

      It could be that he was tricking Tyrion and then later reveal his true plans, and also because I never thought they would reveal his true plans in the first trailer. So if this is what he means with stories being cut, it just seems to me like a dumb move what they did in trailer, maybe to hype all the Daenerys fangirls.

      Is there’s a reason why you think there are just “Daenerys fangirls” rather than “Daenerys fans”, or, if you prefer, “Daenerys fanpeople”?

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    5. Wimsey: Well, we had already worked that out!However, YG never was going to be in Season 5 unless they drastically rewrote things to make YG relevant to the story and plots of Season 5.As Hill notes, he doesn’t know what Season 6 holds.

      Please don’t become one of those LS people (except, in your case YG) who can be presented with a mountain of evidence saying she’s NOT in the show, but they persist. Smh.

      Side note, why would he not be presented this season if he was going to be in the show? He’s introduced in the books this season is based upon.

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    6. Jofrey’s Cunt:

      It could be that he was tricking Tyrion and then later reveal his true plans, and also because I never thought they would reveal his true plans in the first trailer.
      Even if they followed it word-for-word in the books, nobody would reveal the plan to Tyrion. Nobody ever reveals the plan to him: Tyrion figures it out for himself. (A lot of people seem to misremember that!)

      goodkinghenry,
      It has come out many times before that the actors don’t know what is coming in future seasons. As he notes, he does not know what the future holds: the actors are generally in the dark about where the plots are going. (That is standard practice in series like this: the cast in Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, Lost, etc., were never told what was going to happen in subsequent seasons.) The actors will not be learning the basic plot lines for Season 6 until this summer.

      Annara Snow: Is there’s a reason why you think there are just “Daenerys fangirls” rather than “Daenerys fans”, or, if you prefer, “Daenerys fanpeople”?

      Because men who fear and dislike strong women assume that all males fear strong women. Like most things that such people believe, it’s false. Indeed, strong men hope to meet women like Daeny!

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    7. Why do people assume every actor will spoil his storyline in every interview. No one is going to say oh my allegiance is actually to a different chsracter thst line in the trailer is misdirection. Until I see the season I’m not gonna assume because actors haven’t spoiled the story that yg and lsh are cut.

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    8. RosanaZugey: Please don’t become one of those LS people who can be presented with a mountain of evidence saying she’s NOT in the show, but they persist.

      Hmm, I was going to write “quite the opposite” but perhaps “quite the perpendicular” would be more apt! I have been one of those people saying that if LSH is going to be on the show, then it will be Season 6 at the earliest. LSH plays no important role in the plots or story of Crows and Dragons, and therefore she should not be in this season. I have absolutely no idea if GRRM is going to do something uniquely important with LSH in Winter: if he is, then she (probably) will be brought back next year; if he isn’t, then I expect that she will not be brought back and whatever contributions to the plot she makes will be transferred to another character.

      On the other hand, I do very firmly hold that there is such a thing as “too early” in TV series. Unless they were going to dramatically alter plot lines to make LSH relevant to this story, a dramatic reveal at the end of Season 4 would have been bad TV.

      YG was like that in Dragons: a non-important narrative detail who did not make any unique contributions to the plot. It would have been bad TV to include him. However, I expect that YG will be the primary driver of the plot in Winter in a way that LSH never will be.

      Eurio: Why do people assume every actor will spoil his storyline in every interview.

      The other mistake that people make is to assume that actors know what is coming up in upcoming seasons or films. They don’t, unless (of course) it’s germane to the character’s past. Alan Rickman, for example, was told by JK Rowling that Snape had been in love with Harry Potter’s mother. This proved a big “reveal” in the end (well, not really: most of us figured it out in the second to last book!), but as it affected how Snape should be played, Rowling told Rickman that. However, Dan Radcliffe and the other cast-members did not learn that until they read it in (or worked it out from) the books.

      Along these lines, supposedly Kit Harrington does not know who Jon Snow’s mother is. He is aware of the different ideas, but as his character is not supposed to know, he does not know.

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    9. Wimsey: Even if they followed it word-for-word in the books,

      nobody would reveal the plan to Tyrion.Nobody ever reveals the plan to him: Tyrion figures it out for himself.(A lot of people seem to misremember that!)

      goodkinghenry,
      It has come out many times before that the actors don’t know what is coming in future seasons.As he notes, he does not know what the future holds: the actors are generally in the dark about where the plots are going.(That is standard practice in series like this: the cast in Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, Lost, etc., were never told what was going to happen in subsequent seasons.)The actors will not be learning the basic plot lines for Season 6 until this summer.

      YF will not be in the show. Just accept it.

      No one will replace him. He is like Quentyn. He has no purpose in this story. Big hype for nothing. He will be killed in the first half of TWOW and Varys will turn to Dany

      Varys wanted their marriage, but YG was too stupid.

      At the end of S6 Dany will seat at the IT. And than final season for fight against WW.

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    10. Jesterr223456:
      I imagine the non book readers will be like what the fuck is this shit,has this show jumped the shark or what ?

      And many book readers thought the same. YG has been just very bad plot twist. It is stupid, unnecessary, just like some soap.

      We don’t need that. It’s so cheap.

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    11. Annara Snow,

      Don’t get me wrong, Daenerys is one of my favorite characters, I just know some of my girl friends got really hyped from that part in the trailer of all the other great things they showed there, so maybe it was a poor choice of words sorry, but anyway I just thought it was stupid to show that on the trailer, specially if that is his true plan.

      Wimsey,

      I know Tyrion figured it all out. and that’s one the things that bothers me on that scene in the trailer. If that is Varys’s true plan it’s just lame to reveal it like that, but anyway we can only get the truth out of it when the season starts, they might surprise us yet.

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    12. What change of allegiance? It is obvious what his allegiance is from the very beginning after his conversation with Illyrio in season 1.

      We see him talking to Illyrio and they discuss that current events are moving too fast (in the book it is emphasized that Varys knows that Littlefinger has set events into motion in some way. Probably because he knows that Littlefinger framed Tyrion). Then they discuss that they have to make a move before everything is out of their control. Illyrio’s words are something like that Varys has to do his “magic”. One of the very next scenes (after the scene where Arya returns to Ned) in both the book and the tv series is Varys having revealed to the small council that Daenerys is pregnant. To me this is that “magic”. Since Varys is plotting with Illyrio, the very man who harbored Daenerys and Viserys and whose idea it was to marry Daenerys to Drogo in the first place. His plan is not to get Daenerys killed, because that would ruin all of their previous work. It is Varys choice to reveal Daenerys’ pregnancy to the small council at that very moment. He is the only contact of Jorah in Westeros. Probably he could have waited to reveal it a few months if that suited his plans better, but he choses that very moment, right after his conversation with Illyrio.

      The idea is that he wants the assassination to fail in order to get Drogo to start preparing an invasion. Of course this seems very risky, what if Jorah does not get his reply in time or is not smart enough to understand what is going on. I think maybe the wine wasn’t poisoned after all. It was given to the wine merchant by one of Varys’ agents, and the wine merchant is told that the wine is poisoned (this is crucial for the plan to work). However if Daenerys drinks the wine no harm is done. You just get a slightly perplexed wine merchant, and Varys can try a different plan.

      Well, that is just a theory, but Varys actually starting a genuine assassination plot against Daenerys after the conversation he has with Illyrio makes very little sense. And it is very clear that it is he that choses to start it. He is the one providing the information at that particular time and he is one of the people on the small council that is the most eager at encouraging Robert to order it.

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    13. “Probably someone like Samwell Tarly. Someone less highborn. Someone who hadn’t been born for the job. But as Varys says, it has to be the right family name. Those kind of people won’t have a chance. But that’s who I would like. Someone humble. Someone not royal.”

      Huh…too bad’s there’s *no one* in the series who wasn’t born to rule and raised not to think of themselves as royal, someone’s who had experience living in humility and in a egalitarian setting where people earn their ranks and privileges but who happens to have the right family whether they’re aware of it or not!!!

      Seriously, I think Conleth’s trolling us people.

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    14. Jofrey’s Cunt,
      The important point is that someone tell Tyrion that. But here is the other thing. If they are going to simplify and cut YG, then Varys is going to say that to Tyrion. If YG is going to be in Season 6, then Varys is going to say that to Tyrion. There is no a scenario in which he (or someone else) does not say that to Tyrion because under both scenarios that is what Varys & Illyrio want Tyrion to think.

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    15. mau,

      I disagree that Varys & Ill wanted the marriage (that was a lie to Tyrion) and I disagree that it was the “worst plot twist ever” (JonCon is an interesting mature character, like Selmy & Jorah). However, like other interesting but discarded characters/PoVs, the Griffs won’t make it into the show due to “conservation of story.” The prophesy of “the dragon has three heads” probably doesn’t matter in the show either.

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    16. Maginor,

      The whole plan is pretty simple, even if it is not easy. For Varys,

      Daeny & Viserys are smokescreens. They are the Targaryens that everyone knows and fears. While they exist, the probability of Aegon being identified are much, much lower than otherwise. So, it behooves him to constantly keep them in Robert’s mind. Setting up plots and then setting up their failures does that perfectly.

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    17. Annara Snow: Is there’s a reason why you think there are just “Daenerys fangirls” rather than “Daenerys fans”, or, if you prefer, “Daenerys fanpeople”?

      Please grow up.

      I really love this site, but petulance like this is becoming quite common place, and it’s really putting me off reading the comments:

      “Because men who fear and dislike strong women assume that all males fear strong women. Like most things that such people believe, it’s false. Indeed, strong men hope to meet women like Daeny!”

      I just ask that you save your social justice crusade for relevant spaces, and not lapse into bizarre tirades at every perceived slight. It makes for very uncomfortable reading.

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    18. It’s very cool to get an interview with Conleth Hill – he seems like a really nice guy without any ego. And he plays the part to perfection. I’m thrilled he is travelling with Tyrion as it means we should see a lot more of him. Although what happens to him after Tyrion and Daenerys are introduced is anybody’s guess.

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    19. mau,
      Hidzhar played an important story and plot role in a single scene. We get belated mercy of a sorts from Daeny because of this as well as another lesson for her that this is not “white hats vs. black hats.” Both of these are important in a story about love/hate relationships. No new scenes were constructed for Fat Walda.

      (One thing to remember: if Hidzhar is back this year, then they will re-introduce him. The audience will not remember his cameo from last year. )

      On the other hand, we are talking about for LSH or YG is constructing many scenes, possibly centered around those characters. Save them for when they become germane to plot and story: that is what all the other good TV series would do.

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    20. Wimsey,

      I started using it often after some of our previous discussions! It is sort of an homage to you, ser! 🙂 It should be interpreted in the scientific manner, which implies “things will remain constant” or “keep things simple” which is generally true for TV adaptations. A “conservation of story” outlook when compared to the book basically implies cherry-picking for optimum visual results as the tale moves toward the endgame, leaving many interesting tasty diversions on the weirwood branch.

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    21. Chriss,

      I totally agree man, I mean, it was a poor choice of words on my behalf but still I think it’s no reason to go whining about. But it’s all good anyway, I’m only here to discuss the series.

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    22. Wimsey:
      mau,
      On the other hand, we are talking about for LSH or YG is constructing many scenes, possibly centered around those characters.Save them for when they become germane to plot and story: that is what all the other good TV series would do.

      Yes, but I think that YG will never become important part of this story. He will die soon.

      I understand that you obviously don’t want to agree with me, but you will see. He will not appear in s5 or s6. And when ( if ?)TWOW come out you will see that YG didn’t do anything important. But, ok, we can’t argue about this. I will wait for the moment when this become true, and I hope that then you will be here and you will admit that you were wrong.

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    23. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Ah! OK, I thought that it was some formal term: I know a lot of them (dated too many literature types in my youth!), but not all of them.

      The issue is, what will they conserve? If mau is correct

      , then YG is just really bad writing by GRRM and won’t amount to much; if so, then they should focus on whatever is the focus of Winter. However, if YG’s invasion is not the focal point of WoW’s story and plots, then what will be?

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    24. Wimsey,

      Interesting you bring up Snape, because Varys like Snape does know his reasons, so it wouldn’t be surprising if Hill knows the truth about YG’s fate and Varys’s motivations in the show.

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    25. Chriss: Please grow up.

      I really love this site, but petulance like this is becoming quite common place, and it’s really putting me off reading the comments:

      “Because men who fear and dislike strong women assume that all males fear strong women. Like most things that such people believe, it’s false. Indeed, strong men hope to meet women like Daeny!”

      I just ask that you save your social justice crusade for relevant spaces, and not lapse into bizarre tirades at every perceived slight. It makes for very uncomfortable reading.

      I love how asking why someone assumes all Dany’s fans are women leads to the response “Please grow up”. Classy. And really logical, especially when followed by an attack against the petulance and “social justice crusade” represented by a quote by another poster (who happens to be male, therefore disproving the “Dany fangirls” theory).

      Well, someone here certainly needs to grow up.

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    26. Im pretty sure YG will be the next one to sit on the iron throne with Arianne as his queen thus making dorne the most powerful house. Who else does everyone think will be on the throne next? Stannis? He is fighting the battle of ice and then he will need to stop the white walkers. Dany has a journey of self discovery ahead of her and i dont believe she will ever sit on the iron throne, she may however be responsible for kings landing being destroyed as we saw in the show version of the House of the Undying. Now according to the show how do you simplify YG story? You cut everyone except YG from that party. You have Barristan talk to dany about the blackfyre rebellion considering he also killed the last of the their line. This is where you can get the entire backstory and exposition which GOT has done many times before succesfully. Then you can have another mention of the blackfyres by another character somewhere down the line. We already know the story of aegon being killed from Oberyn and other characters who mentioned it many times. Then we will simply have YG be in Dorne and grow up in Dorne as Trystane. Jaime will be taking tyrions arc of figuring out who he really is because he was close to rhaegar and can in a way replace jon con. Otherwise what will jaime do in doren for 8 episodes. We know from interviews and other clips that he will be in dorne in episode 9 or 10 still. He will be arriving in episode 2 or 3 I cant remember exactly but either way he is there for a pretty long time. The dorne story is however really only the queenmaker plot which is two episodes of material total for jaime. The show also cut arianne whos main purpose was to combine dorne and yg which isnt necessary now. Without yg in the story dorne will have no story left after this season. And if they side with dany then she will have the unsullied dorthraki dragons and dorne on her side against who? The tyrells?

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    27. Annara Snow,

      Indeed, as a male, I often feel the need to apologize for the things other men say and do. And when I fail to do so, well, I can only offer the lame excuse that there is only so much one man can do!

      But some of us try.

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    28. Wimsey:
      Hodor’s Bastard,

      Ah!OK, I thought that it was some formal term: I know a lot of them (dated too many literature types in my youth!), but not all of them.

      The issue is, what will they conserve?If mau is correct

      It’s very simple

      s6 – Dany’s invasion
      s7 – The Others

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    29. Crabber’s Son:

      1. Im pretty sure YG will be the next one to sit on the iron throne with Arianne as his queen thus making dorne the most powerful house. Who else does everyone think will be on the throne next?

      2. Without yg in the story dorne will have no story left after this season. And if they side with dany then she will have the unsullied dorthraki dragons and dorne on her side against who? The tyrells?

      1. Myrcella Baratheon

      Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds

      Tommen has no sons, or living brothers. After his death in the next season / book, Myscella will become new Queen.

      Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear

      This is Dany. So, Cersei must be in KL when Dany arrives. I know that some believe that Arianne is YMBQ, but she is not. The point of that prophecy is that the valonqar and YMBQ were in front of her all the time, but she didn’t see that. And Jaime and Dany were in front of her, not Arianne.

      2.

      Dany and Dorne will fight against Cersei and Euron(he will appear in s6) in KL.

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    30. Wimsey,

      Wimsey… Aegon is cut. For good. This interview confirms it. I don’t see any other way to interpret that sentence. The actor may not know what’s coming exactly, but I insist: if YG is not even teased in Season 5, he’s out. The actor pretty much says the whole subplot is out.

      Chriss,

      You may not see it, but your comments are just as politically charged as her reply.

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    31. mau,

      I think it all depends on what you consider important.

      I guess we all can agree that YG won’t survive Dany’s invasion for long, so you could say he’s disposable. But readers and watchers alike have been waiting for Daenerys to fight against the Lannisters and the scheming King’s Landing elite since the start. Right now it looks like when she arrives she’ll fight against her (supposed) nephew and Dorne, that could have been her best ally. I’d say that makes one hell of a difference.

      While I agree that YG is probably cut, I hope they keep that aspect of the story, even if it’s just Dorne Dany ends up fighting. I just don’t know how they’ll do it without a Quentin to be roasted.

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    32. Dolorous Ned,

      I think that in GRRM’s version she will fight against YG and then Lannisters, but in D&D’s version she will fight only against Lannisters and their allies (Euron?) in KL. There in no time for YG, and there is no need for him in the show. Dany’s invasion must be over or almost over at the end of s6, and then s7 for the Others

      That’s just my opinion.

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    33. mau: It’s very simple:
      s6 – Dany’s invasion
      s7 – The Others

      Heh. No real argument there, I guess. But the devil is in the details.

      HBO exec: “So D&D, when will Dany invade Westeros?”
      D&D: “When her dragons grow up and when George gives us more details. But there is the question of the first invasion.”
      HBO exec: “What first invasion?”
      D&D: “Dany’s nephew, Aegon, needs to invade first.”
      HBO exec: “Huh?”
      D&D: “It’s complicated.”
      HBO exec: “We’ll only pay for one invasion from Essos. Make it happen soon and make it big.”
      D&D: “But we need more text, more plotpoints. Plus we have two invasions from the north in the works as well.”
      HBO exec: “Which is bigger? Which matters more?”
      D&D: “We don’t know. They’re all big. One from the north is supernatural and happens once per eon. Another from the north is an internal insurrection with emotional character ties. The one from the east is an invasion led by an exile. We’ve already discarded any insurrections from the west and south.”
      HBO exec: “Which one has more bewbs?”
      D&D: “Thanks for the guidance!”

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    34. mau,

      The problem with that outline is: what conundrums does Daeny’s invasion create for the lead characters? Will it come down to just whether they are going to side with Daeny or Stannis? Ultimately, the story is what matters: the plots are important only for setting up those stories. GRRM’s stories have always been in the “damned if I do, damned if I don’t” conundrums in which life places the protagonists. IF they don’t use YG, then they will have to hope that either what is there is sufficient (and maybe it is!), or they will need a substitute.

      Luka Nieto,
      You might be right. We’ll see how much reference Doran’s nephew & niece get next year: that will be a big tip off. Again, the names are not important: just the entities. If the “Anastasia” possibility is not already in the audiences’ minds, then it will be.

      However, some posters here might be right: B&W might see the Anastasia plot line as too predictable and too soap-operish. I, myself, have been in the “Aegon is alive and hidden” camp since about 1999, so I might have lost sight of that issue! And upon reflection: it’s a legitimate concern.

      Ultimately, we will know in about six months, won’t we!

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    35. “There are more stories in the book that aren’t being transferred to the screen, involving searches for an heir, and so it’s probably an element of what’s best dramatically and also how to accumulate his reasons:”

      Considering he’s not read the books, yet he’s aware of that whole storyline, that tells me D&D probably explained to him what’s been changed. He pretty much says “YG isn’t being transferred tot he show.”

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    36. Dolorous Ned,
      mau,

      I would suggest a different outline:

      1. Aegon’s invasion leads to some houses (e.g., those in Dorne, the Vale [with Sansa] and perhaps some peoples in the Riverlands) to declare for Aegon;
      2a. News of this gets Daeny out of Meereen and back to Westeros just as Tyrion predicted, with Essosians, Dothraki and Iron Born among others in her train: and probably Arya Stark in there as well;
      2b. The Lannister/Tyrell alliance rapidly crumbles against the Targaryen alliance due to Cersei’s determination to undermine the Tyrells and the Tyrells defecting to the Targaryens; included with this will be the Church of the Seven because Cersei probably will also seek vengeance against them.
      3. Daeny & Aegon go from allies to opponents when neither will kneel to the other: and that means that the remaining houses will be split. In particular, because Westerosians are pigs and because of the normal rules of primogeniture, many will side with Aegon instead of Daeny. Having the Red Church in Daeny’s train and the Seven Church in Aegon’s train could exacerbate this. That also puts Arya and Sansa on opposite sides (again).
      5. Don’t forget the Northerners: and they are going to cast their lot with Stannis: and they will have Rickon.
      6. And then there is Jon. I cannot only guess at the spanner he introduces, but if he learns in WoW who’s son he really is, he might view this as a chance to not repeat his prior actions: and now he’ll have a whole new family in similar straits.

      The big issue that should come up again and again is people having to deice that someone that they don’t hate is an enemy.

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    37. Wimsey,

      I dunno, man. I’ve read a lot of your comments about YG happening in Season 6. I get your point that if you’re going to introduce someone or something it better have some immediate relevance to the plot. I, however, tend to think that people need to get used to new characters before they became incredibly important. That’s why I think characters like Hizdahr are introduced well, he was relevant enough in Season 4 to warrant screentime, so he won’t be coming out of left field when he becomes very important in Season 5.

      The reason why I was so viscerally annoyed with Aegon/fAegon’s introduction was that a major player in the game was being introduced so late in the story. I think those problems are exacerbated if you delay his introduction till Season 6 or 7. So I tend to think that if a major plotline is cut in Season 5, it’s pretty unlikely that it will occur in the penultimate season, so it’s probably cut for good.

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    38. Maginor:
      What change of allegiance? It is obvious what his allegiance is from the very beginning after his conversation with Illyrio in season 1.

      We see him talking to Illyrio and they discuss that current events are moving too fast (in the book it is emphasized that Varys knows that Littlefinger has set events into motion in some way. Probably because he knows that Littlefinger framed Tyrion). Then they discuss that they have to make a move before everything is out of their control. Illyrio’s words are something like that Varys has to do his “magic”. One of the very next scenes (after the scene where Arya returns to Ned) in both the book and the tv series is Varys having revealed to the small council that Daenerys is pregnant. To me this is that “magic”. Since Varys is plotting with Illyrio, the very man who harbored Daenerys and Viserys and whose idea it was to marry Daenerys to Drogo in the first place. His plan is not to get Daenerys killed, because that would ruin all of their previous work. It is Varys choice to reveal Daenerys’ pregnancy to the small council at that very moment. He is the only contact of Jorah in Westeros. Probably he could have waited to reveal it a few months if that suited his plans better, but he choses that very moment, right after his conversation with Illyrio.

      The idea is that he wants the assassination to fail in order to get Drogo to start preparing an invasion. Of course this seems very risky, what if Jorah does not get his reply in time or is not smart enough to understand what is going on. I think maybe the wine wasn’t poisoned after all. It was given to the wine merchant by one of Varys’ agents, and the wine merchant is told that the wine is poisoned (this is crucial for the plan to work). However if Daenerys drinks the wine no harm is done. You just get a slightly perplexed wine merchant, and Varys can try a different plan.

      Well, that is just a theory, but Varys actually starting a genuine assassination plot against Daenerys after the conversation he has with Illyrio makes very little sense. And it is very clear that it is he that choses to start it. He is the one providing the information at that particular time and he is one of the people on the small council that is the most eager at encouraging Robert to order it.

      I agree with you! As a matter of fact in the TV show Illyrio says “One HAND has already died”; Varys replies “This is another type”… So instead of poison, lightening a fight between Robert and Ned with the story of the pregnancy. Did nobody else notice the whole story was done on purpose?

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    39. Hodor Targaryen,

      I agree. Only major introduction that will happen in s6 is Euron and Aeron Greyjoy (Bryan Cogman said Aeron is his favorite new character and he will be main Euron’s opposition on Iron Island, IMO), LSH must happen in this season if she is not cut. In s6 absolutely not! YG also must be in this season.

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    40. Hodor Targaryen,

      If that were true, then how do TV shows ever succeed? How did GoT do so well when only a small fraction of the audience knew who Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon were when they tuned into Season 1? How do all of those TV shows that introduce major new cast members every season succeed?

      Moreover, this is one difference between fans and the general audience. The 41 year old male HBO subscriber (the most “typical” GoT viewer according to stats) who has spent 12 months dealing with his 1-2 kids, multiple reports/cases/projects and who has been watching multiple TV series in the interim is not really going to remember Hizdar from that one scene. It really wasn’t a warmup.

      At any rate, the history of cable TV series shows that the annual new characters do not hurt the shows: the shows have them in their best and worst years, which means that something else is making them best or worst.

      As for GRRM’s approach, you are not the only one to criticize this. When said character was not reintroduced in Swords, a lot of people then said “See! If Anastasia was around, then we would have gotten ‘her’ by then!” (Whether there was an Anastasia was a big source of debate even before Swords came out.)

      B&W might also be taking this view. Alternatively, they might take the view that they really would need to elevate YG to a protagonist instead of just a secondary character as he is and will certainly remain in the books. It might be too late to do that. I can think of lots of long-running series introducing new secondary characters after many series, but few that introduce new protagonists; really, the only obvious exception is Doctor Who, but that is a show for which the word “regeneration” has multiple meanings! Also, those shows might have season-long arcs (many do these days), but not season-to-season arcs.

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    41. uff,

      What he actually said once in an interview with The Mary Sue:

      TMS: “Who’s your favorite character in the show and, if you have a different answer, who’s your favorite character to write? Is there a different favorite from the books?”

      BC: “Very hard to choose — I’ve been living with them for so long, I have great affection for all of them (and the actors who portray them). I had a great time writing Theon in Season 2 and I’ve really enjoyed writing Jaime in Season 3. And I always like writing for the kids. There’s a character I love from the books — Aeron Damphair, who we haven’t seen on the show yet, but it’d be fun to get a crack at him. We’ll see.”

      (I could post the link here, but I think then my comment goes in waiting for the mods, doesn’t it?

      ETA: Just yet posted the link in my next post, without any problems/waiting.)

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    42. Wimsey,

      Of course, it is possible that D&D are taking this view for lots of reasons stated above. I happen to like Hodor’s Bastard‘s “conservation of story.”

      In the case of (f)Aegon, it just may be too late to introduce him in S6. Let’s not forget that there is another Targaryen up north. Unsullied viewers must still be presented with that piece of information. It may be one too many surprise Targaryens with only 20 hours of show to go.

      Hodor Targaryen,

      I agree. This character and his method of introduction was a bit problematic in the books. I think that it gets more complicated on TV, particularly with Varys’ comment about “who says its him” or whatever the exact phrasing is.

      Luka Nieto,

      Yes, Conleth’s comment would seem to end much of this speculation.

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    43. uff,

      TMS: Who’s your favorite character in the show and, if you have a different answer, who’s your favorite character to write? Is there a different favorite from the books?

      BC: Very hard to choose — I’ve been living with them for so long, I have great affection for all of them (and the actors who portray them). I had a great time writing Theon in Season 2 and I’ve really enjoyed writing Jaime in Season 3. And I always like writing for the kids. There’s a character I love from the books — Aeron Damphair, who we haven’t seen on the show yet, but it’d be fun to get a crack at him. We’ll see.

      http://www.themarysue.com/bryan-cogman-got-interview/

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    44. but he said that in october 2012! isn’t that quite obsolete?

      mau:
      uff,

      TMS: Who’s your favorite character in the show and, if you have a different answer, who’s your favorite character to write? Is there a different favorite from the books?

      BC: Very hard to choose — I’ve been living with them for so long, I have great affection for all of them (and the actors who portray them). I had a great time writing Theon in Season 2 and I’ve really enjoyed writing Jaime in Season 3. And I always like writing for the kids. There’s a character I love from the books — Aeron Damphair, who we haven’t seen on the show yet, but it’d be fun to get a crack at him. We’ll see.

      http://www.themarysue.com/bryan-cogman-got-interview/

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    45. Wimsey,

      I have to say it: if YG is not in this season, he has, so to speak, missed the boat. I really don’t see how he could be more effectively introduced in Season 6 than the way he is introduced in the books.

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    46. Dogs: I really don’t see how he could be more effectively introduced in Season 6 than the way he is introduced in the books.

      What is effective on screen and what is effective on page are often two different things! I actually like the way that GRRM did it in the books (although I acknowledge that many did not). However, I would not like to see the same thing on TV: the slow unwinding would have made for interminable viewing. Really, it was about dynamically developing Tyrion at that point: but that’s just not the way you do a “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” arc on TV.

      That does bring me to two issues. The first is, if the show had included YG, then what would they have done with him? (This is the same question I ask about LSH & BwB.) OK, YG obviously had a bit more narrative impact than those two: but really very little, particularly in the presence of an established protagonist. Moreover, what he did do was fine reading, but awful viewing. So, including him would have meant radically revamping what he did. To that end: what would people have done to make YG cinematic in Season 5?

      The second is what I’ve mentioned above: this is supposed to be a bombshell for most of the major characters in Book 6. IF the show is going to retain it, then make it the bombshell for the audience that it is for the characters. When the audience knows more than the characters do, then it tends to leave the audience feeling like the characters are dumb or behaving foolishly. (Indeed, how often do we see posters here ask: “Why doesn’t Character X do something about Z?” only to get bombarded with “Character X has no idea that Z is happening, that’s why.”)

      Again, B&W might not like the Anastasia elements to this. They might have another trick up their sleeve to get the same story out of the characters in some other way. IF YG is cut, then there will be some YG substitute: given how much YG is certainly going to influence the plots and story of WoW, they will need a substitute.

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    47. Chriss: Please grow up.

      I really love this site, but petulance like this is becoming quite common place, and it’s really putting me off reading the comments:

      “Because men who fear and dislike strong women assume that all males fear strong women. Like most things that such people believe, it’s false. Indeed, strong men hope to meet women like Daeny!”

      I just ask that you save your social justice crusade for relevant spaces, and not lapse into bizarre tirades at every perceived slight. It makes for very uncomfortable reading.

      Okay, so when women see sexist language and point it out (or in this case just ask for clarification because it may or may not be a sexist comment ), we’re too sensitive and should just grow up and keep quiet about our silly concerns.

      But, reading a discussion about sexism makes you uncomfortable so it’s completely acceptable for you to complain about it? Because we should cater to your feelings of discomfort you experience at having to read about sexism. But the people who actually experience it should just get over it.

      That’s rather hypocritical.

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    48. Wimsey:

      IF YG is cut, then there will be some YG substitute: given how much YG is certainly going to influence the plots and story of WoW, they will need a substitute.

      Still with IF he’s introduced…

      Anyway, interested in hearing who you think will be the YG substitute and why you are so sure that one is needed.

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    49. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I love that D&D conversation. For people who can’t get the difference between a book and TV. Money is important. Bewbs are important. Time is important. Visuals differentiation are important – Dorne is pretty. Greyjoy ships are not visually different that Stannis and his ships.

      I still says A Quentyn min-plot would serve to
      A – show off the dragons in their required “remind them dragons exist” scene in the first couple of episodes
      B – serve as a way to introduced Dorne – as Daddy reacts to his featured extra’s death
      C – be cheap as far as Dragons go – the underground set exists already, why not use it a bit more, I’m sure they need to
      D-Z – make me very happy. 2 scenes with Quentyn (intro to Dany and roasting), two slightly about him (Dany discussing what to do with his proposal, Dorian making 2.0 plans), that’s it!

      Oh well… I guess I’m no more immune than anyone else 🙁

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    50. Messy Justin Massey:

      (BTW, it feels good to know I’m not the only one who likes Aeron.)

      I, too, like Aeron. I’m not overly fond of the Iron Islands characters/storyline, in general, but I find Aeron fascinating. It’s probably due to my overall fascination with religious zealots.

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    51. Wimsey,

      I think audience members go into a series open to seeing new characters for the first time. After a season meeting.some characters, they usually expect to meet a few more, to flesh out the world. After four seasons, though, people don’t want to be introduced to characters as important/more important than the characters they were already following for four years.

      I think this is particularly problematic for GoT, who from the get go have been teasing major confrontations that probably won’t happen till the end (the White Walkers and Daenerys’ arrival to Westeros). People get that there are obstacles to overcome before those big confrontations happen. The Stark/Lannister/Baratheon conflict has to play out, obviously. And some character additions feel organic. Daenerys needs shelter, so she meets people in Quarth; there are Seven(ish) kingdoms so naturally there are some, like the Tyrells, who are going to get involved in the War; oh, there are human beings who live Beyond the Wall, that makes sense; oh, thag Theon guy has a dad who’s pissed at the Starks, okay.

      But after a while the new obstacles feel forced, and the audience is less patient with them.

      Theon has not one, not two, but three flippin’ uncles competing for power? The Children of the Forest are now a thing? The maesters are now up to something? Daenerys is now actively deciding not to go to Westeros and instead deal woth slave cities? A prince who was believed dead is now suddenly alive and will now be competing for the throne with more established characters? If you’re going to have mini-conflicts in between the introduction of the main characters and their inevitable confrontation, then you have to introduce them early so that they don’t feel like attempts at procrastinating the natural end of the series. In my opinion.

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    52. Jesterr223456,

      “Durrr too many characters for dum dum brain. Me no understand so many people! Character not do nothing in books yet, HE USELESS! Me think show jump shark. Me go back to watching Big Bang Theory. BAZINGA!”

      God, when did this place turn into such a shit-flinging, anti-book site? Every comment section is the same.

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    53. Lady Wolfsbane,

      Oh, I definitely think you will get your desired barbeque scene! But in GoT, the roasted victim will be a character who is more relevant to Dany’s arc than Quentyn (GreyWorm?, Jorah?). Plus, it is quite possible that the death will be sadly incidental rather than obnoxiously predictable as Q’s death was. After reading The Princess & the Queen, we know that 9 out of 10 bold & insensible folk perish while trying to tame a dragon.

      I wish we had better insight into how Dorne/Doran plays their Targ card(s) in the show, if they even can. Are they simply reduced to a vengeful lot after the RV debacle, and still haunted by Elia/Aegon/Rhaenys’ demise? They need to have their Queen Nymeria moment!!

      Regardless, I hope you get your D-Z happy moments in one form or another. 🙂

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    54. Wimsey,

      Shoot, forgot to mention this, but I think that

      YG will be pretty easy to replace. I don’t know what he’s going to do in book six, but to me it seems like he will probably end up chipping away at one of the other players- the Lannisters, Tyrells, Stannis or Daenerys – making them weaker for when thwy go up against theor final foes. How the final showdown will go down will be the result of a number of factors, Aegon being one of them. But those other factors will still be there to explain how it all goes down. Like, do we really need someone to weaken the Lannisters before Daenerys comes and burns their asses out of the sky? I’m not sure you do.

      I guess it’s also possible that Aegon himself will defeat one of the major powers, most likely the Lannisters, before directly fighting someone else, probably Daenerys. In which case I think (and hope) that they just cut out Aegon and give us the confrontation we’ve actually wanted to see, Lannisters v. Dany.

      So either he’s inessential and completely skippable, or he’s so essential that the show would be wise to give his actions to more established characters.

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    55. Renly’s Peach:

      God, when did this place turn into such a shit-flinging, anti-book site? Every comment section is the same.

      I don’t think this has turned into a shit-flinging, anti-book site, at all. Sure, there are a couple/few who sling shit, and a couple/few who seem anti-book, but from where I sit it is the exception, not the rule.

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    56. God, when did this place turn into such a shit-flinging, anti-book site? Every comment section is the same.

      Well, most comments sections lately have been about Season 5, which is based on books 4 & 5. As people discuss what they hope to see/not see this season, inevitably opinions about those books will be expressed. Since books 4 & 5 are (generally) held in lower regard than the first three, more of those opinions are negative than usual (not that I think this place has actually become the cesspool of negativity you suggest)

      You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but when this many people are good with or even prefer no YG, LSH, Greyjoys, it’s not because of “durr me rather watch Big Bang Theory”

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    57. Hodor Targaryen,

      I think it would be quite the hoot to have another Dance of Dragons with Jon, Aegon and Dany in the mix, and with BR, Bran, Varys, Illyrio, Arianne, Tyrion, LF, Selmy, JonCon, Darkstar, WWs, CotF and the Starks in the periphery…but that won’t happen…

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    58. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Quite the opposite. Those responsible will be even less relevant than Quentyn.

      A couple of slave masters were cast exactly for the purpose of unleashing the dragons in his absence. Their casting calls explained that one of them would be eaten by a dragon and that the other would ‘undergo major trauma involving dragons.’ And no, it’s not about Drogon and Daznak’s Pit, because one of them was cast as ‘Catacomb Master.’ The other may be ‘Master Eaton’ (Eaton, eaten.)

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    59. uff,

      Out of all the great characters in ASOIAF Bryan Cogman chooses Aeron Greyjoy to be his favorite character. Bryan Cogman is such a fucking hack LOL.

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    60. Elmo Tully,

      I feel like we need another poster with the name Kermit Tully. This is Elio and Linda’s contribution to AWOIAF(at least I hope George didn’t come up with it), and Gods is it aweful. Cool screen name, though.

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    61. Hodor’s Bastard,
      Luka Nieto,

      Hmmm… one of us wants Quentyn. One of us wants someone more important to TV viewers. One of us someone less important.

      I know about the casting call, and I’m dearly hoping there’s more than the two of them – since IMHO I think that takes huge impact away from Dany’s chaining of them in the first place. It need to be a Dragon-napping attempt by someone with stupid ambitions. Ah well, only a few more months.

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    62. Hodor Targaryen: After four seasons, though, people don’t want to be introduced to characters as important/more important than the characters they were already following for four years.

      We aren’t talking about adding a character that is as important as the established ones: we are talking about adding a secondary character who will have a huge impact on the main characters. How the established characters respond to this secondary character will probably form the story for WoW.

      Regardless, if your premise was true, then a lot of veteran TV shows would have died after introducing new characters. However, many long-lived shows that were both highly acclaimed and very popular had huge cast turnovers during their runs. That is a unifying trait of successful long-lived shows over the last couple of decades. (This is particularly true when you look at supporting roles: and that’s what we are talking about here.)

      Stagnation is a the real enemy for veteran TV shows (and a 5 year old show is a veteran now). If people feel like they’ve seen it before, then they stop watching. New cast obviously is only part of a potential solution: they must accompany new plot elements and new dimensions in order to bring in fresh stories. Season 6 is going to need it just like every other season will until HBO waves the big “FINAL SEASON!!!” banner.

      Lady Wolfsbane: Money is important. Bewbs are important. Time is important. Visuals differentiation are important – Dorne is pretty. Greyjoy ships are not visually different that Stannis and his ships.

      What’s even more important is that the way you want to tell the same story on screen (big or small) or on stage is different than the way you want to tell it with words. There are freedoms and restrictions to both. One of the biggest problems book fans have with adaptations that they often do not accept that a re-enactment of what is written often won’t communicate what was written: and that the authors would have done it differently had they been writing a script instead of a novel.

      These freedoms/restrictions are relevant here, too. It was OK for JK Rowling to introduce Cedric Diggory or Cho Chang in Prisoner of Azkaban as incidental characters, and then elevate them to secondary characters in Goblet. Similarly, it was fine for GRRM to introduce the Reeds in Clash and then elevate their importance in Storm. After all, just as long as authors re-introduce characters in subsequent books (which both did), the audience knew who they were when it counted. However, 1) actors cost $$$ when words do not, and, 2) audiences will not remember incidental characters from a year or more before, anyway. So, it’s financial loss with no storytelling gain.

      (One of the reasons why I quit reading the Robert Jordan series is that he never re-introduced his characters: and after 2 books of not knowing who anyone was anymore, I quit! Of course, there didn’t seem to be any story anymore, but maybe there would have been if he’d re-developed the characters a little.)

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    63. I’m looking forward to reading the exploits of

      Jon Con,YG, and the Golden Company in TWOW. I wish they were in the show, but understand why they’re not. I hated the “Aegon” reveal the first time I read ADWD. It made me mad that George would introduce such a major player so late in the series, and my anger was made worse because I originally took “Aegon” as being legit and felt it undercut Jon Snow, with him no longer being the lone surviving child of Rhaegar. But once I started to read about/discuss the book and the mystery surrounding “Aegon”, specifically the Blackfyre connection, then I gained a lot more interest. As a character, YG is not very interesting. However, as a chess piece used by Varys and Illyrio to finally seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, that is another story, one I look forward to reading.

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    64. Wimsey: Well, for one thing we aren’t talking about adding a character that is as important as the established ones: we are talking about adding a secondary character who will have a huge impact on the main characters.How the established characters respond to this secondary character will probably form the story for WoW.

      New Targaryen will not be seen as secondary character. Not after they made such a big deal about Dany “the last dragon”.

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    65. Wimsey: (One of the reasons why I quit reading the Robert Jordan series is that he never re-introduced his characters: and after 2 books of not knowing who anyone was anymore, I quit! Of course, there didn’t seem to be any story anymore, but maybe there would have been if he’d re-developed the characters a little.)

      I forced my way through them, the first and last three were great, the middle 8 were mindless drivel

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    66. Wimsey,

      You often like to use Harry Potter as an example. Ok, let me try.

      Adding YG to this story in S6 will be similar as adding Harry’s lost sister in HBP (book 6).

      The whole point of Harry’s character is that he is the last living member of his family. He has no one.He is alone in this world. His duty is to avenge his parents.

      Same with Dany. The whole point of her character it that she is the last Targaryen.

      It’s just lame to take that from her at this stage of the story. You just can’t compare Jojen or Blackfish with Aegon. Aegon “is” Targaryen. He isn’t just some random guy. He is member of great dinasty, heir to the Iron Throne.

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    67. mau,

      She’s a petulant little girl, vicious and vengeful, not fit to rule. 🙂

      I kinda hope she gets killed in Mereen and the dragons take off on their own mission to avenge their families murders in Westeros, im just assuming all dragons are related somewhere along the line lol

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    68. mau: Adding YG to this story in S6 will be similar as adding Harry’s lost sister in HBP (book 6).

      No, it would be like adding Horcruxes, like the book did. That is, a major plot element that solidified the basis for the plot in that story and the next one appeared. (That one had already been in the books meant nothing: it was just a magic Diary for all we knew at that time.)

      mau: You just can’t compare Jojen or Blackfish with Aegon. Aegon “is” Targaryen. He isn’t just some random guy. He is member of great dinasty, heir to the Iron Throne.

      He’s a secondary character, just like Jojen. Heck, he really is a tertiary character in Dragons: he’s more than incidental, but he’s hardly up there with potent secondary characters like Stannis or Melisandre. In a story, what counts is whether a character is driving the story or whether he/she is just a foil for others to drive the story. Indeed, every claimant to the Iron Throne but Daeny is a secondary character in this series. We had a war of 5 kings in which every king was a secondary or tertiary character, at least in the books. (The show elevated Robb considerably and Stannis slightly.) Cersei has been Queen as a protagonist: but, then, her story was trying to convince the world that she was Queen and not just Queen-Regent.

      So, titular rank does not correspond well to literary rank in these books!

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    69. Marry Me Natalie,

      My recollection is the the first 3 or so told interesting stories about self-acceptance. However, after that it became plot-for-the-sake-of-plot. I can (and do) get that from history books, where it is much, much more interesting than in fiction. To be honest, though, I don’t remember when I lost interest: it seems like the late 1990’s, but my memory might be off.

      It does stagger the mind to think that these two series were once considered peers! Of course, a lot of people basically said that said that GRRM had jumped the Aes Sedai after Crows, so maybe I should wait until it ends before scoffing at this!

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    70. Wimsey,

      I disagree. This story will have “Horcruxes” (how to defeat the Others), but this is character. Not just same information, but character, and people need to care about him.

      And I strongly disagree that he is incidental character. If you remove his identity, he really is, but as Targaryen, who wants IT, he is very important. Or should I say he looks like he is very important, but he obviously can be cut from the show.

      Targaryens are special. They are extinct, destroyed, gone… It is not ordinary to find living Targaryen. It is just like finding dinosaurs in the real world.

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    71. mau:
      Targaryens are special. They are extinct, destroyed, gone… It is not ordinary to find living Targaryen. It is just like finding dinosaurs in the real world.

      I understand what you are saying regarding Targ rareness, but I wouldn’t be so sure about Targs and dragons being extinct.

      Regardless of Aegon’s planned reemergence, within the various “histories” out there, many Targ relatives, bastards, dragon eggs, and even dragons went missing and were never officially tracked. It wasn’t a complete Targ/dragon genocide over the past 100 years, as GRRM has indicated.

      Dany is special but I don’t expect all folk with purple eyes and platinum hair throughout Planetos to remain hidden after her public rise to power (if it comes to pass). They are out there. I’m especially interested in all the dragon eggs hidden in Westeros…they were used as barter and tourney prizes during the D&E tales (less than 80 years in the past).

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    72. I’m just glad someone interviewed Conleth Hill again. He seems to be getting more comfortable with them (he had admitted to hating talking about himself in pre-GoT interviews).

      He’s always been one of my favorite obscure stage actors. When I heard he was cast as Varys I knew I’d be watching the show, so I figured I’d start reading the books first…now I find it interesting that he hasn’t read them!

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    73. I think , sadly, Aegon is gone in his book guise. Think the only chance of him appearing in some form is merging him with Trystane. Personally, I think it’s a bad decision as it was the only part of Dany’s painfully dull and slow story that I was looking forward to. Without the Dance of Dragons we just get all the characters involved in Aegon’s story , Dorne, Varys, Illyrio, Golden Company and Tyrion to some extent bundled in with Dany making it all very dull. Dany went from being one of the most interesting characters in the first book/season to a self-entitled dullard. Removing the Aegon twist has removed and sort of obstacle she has to the Throne. Why would anyone want to root for a now spoilt princess who forces her views on other cultures, has an army of Unsullied, dragons, numerous bands of sellswords and if she picks up Aegon’s forces Dorne, The Golden Company, Varys’ unique set of skills and Illyrios wealth! She’s not sympathetic anymore and for me, she’s the last person I want to sit the throne. I guess we shall see but my intial thoughts are I do not like the change. It simplifies her story far too much.

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    74. Wimsey,

      Well, there’s a reason why I used the word “important” rather than “main.” I agree Aegon is a secondary character, but he is still, in that world, a very important player in the game of thrones, and his presence was pretty abrupt. I’m trying to think of a show like GoT that introduced important threats near the end of their run that wasn’t frustrating…can you give some examples? The concept that the audience is more patient/open to new characters early in the season rather than later is a pretty basic concept to me…

      Let me get into this Harry Potter metaphor. I actually think the way the Horcruxes were introducedbis very different from Aegon. It answered a long-standing question about how Voldemort lived on post-death, and used a concept already introduced early on in the series to explain it. Sure the diary never got the label “horcrux,” but I think what Book 6 did was tell the reader “Hey, remember that diary that had some.of Voldemort in it? Well, there are a few more of those, and they need to be destroyed before Voldy can.”

      I’d say Aegon is more like the way JK Rowling added the Deathly Hallows, or added a bunch of rules about wands that had never been introduced beforehand. Or if there was a second Dark Lord (granted, still a secondary character!) that Harry would have to defeat in book 6 before going up against Voldemort.

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    75. TheTouchOfFrost,

      I agree with all these people in her corner shes unstoppable.

      But I also feel the trystane is aegon reveal can be even better than the book version. It can be doran giving his fire and blood speech and revealing hes been raising Aegon to take the iron throne. That would make me root for Aegon with dorne and the sandsnakes behind him maybe jaime taking the role of Jon Con, plus theres varys.

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    76. Hodor Targaryen,

      Considering the show will probably go 8 seasons or that there will be 8 books then hes being introduced halfway in the story. And he is also an extension of Varys and Illyrio who we are familiar with from the show, hes almost like their tool.

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    77. Jofrey’s Cunt,

      Felt the same way. That line was the worst line in the trailer and felt so cheesy and out of place to GOTS as a whole. It was just bad writing and I was desperately hoping it was to stray people in the wrong direction. Hopefully the line isn’t in the actual season and is cut.

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    78. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Elmo Tully,

      I feel like we need another poster with the name Kermit Tully. This is Elio and Linda’s contribution to AWOIAF(at least I hope George didn’t come up with it), and Gods is it aweful. Cool screen name, though.

      Sorry, all GM. He even mentioned wanting to name a character Cookie Monster, but thought it would be too over-the-top.

      I am not joking.

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    79. TheTouchOfFrost,

      “Forces her views on other cultures”? What culture is that? That of the slavers, a minor population in “their” society? Please read this.

      Dany is not an imperialist. No, really —she isn’t. Please, do read that wonderful article. While I enjoyed Dany freeing the slaves, I always found it troubling, as you did. Not after reading this essay.

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    80. Wimsey,

      I don’t think there was much at all in Harry Potter that I objected to in the adaptations. I DID miss the revelation of who had the map – Moonie, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs – a line or two of dialog would have been nice – but I certainly didn’t miss house elves revolution, or even Rita revealed being an Animagious. But I’m an animal nut. And a Lupin fan.

      Marry Me Natalie,
      Robert Jordan DID throw my favorite character under a pile of rubble in one book and didn’t revisit him until TWO books later. That was a serious piss-off. Brandon’s style did throw me off in the last few books too. But Wimsey, do consider reading more – there’s some fun moments especially in I want to say the 2nd last book… I never had much trouble knowing what character was who, they were so distinctive, in their inner monologs and everything. Not like Anne Rice, where I would read three pages and realize I’d mixed up which vampire was POV…

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    81. Jofrey’s Cunt,

      The reason for YG was that ASoIaF uses elements of the War of the Roses in it’s story structure. Henry Tudor was an exiled heir as a child to early adulthood and had to flee along with Jasper Tudor (his guardian and teacher). He and his forces invaded England and engaged Richard III at Bosworth. It’s easy to notice the comparison’s if you know your British History.
      The problem with GRRM was he and D&D likewise made Dany’s rise to power so interesting that readers and tv fans became devoted followers. Suddenly throwing YG into the fray as the real heir was a slap to all Dany fans (which are a large if not the largest tv audience.

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    82. Renly’s Peach:
      Jesterr223456,

      “Durrr too many characters for dum dum brain. Me no understand so many people! Character not do nothing in books yet, HE USELESS! Me think show jump shark. Me go back to watching Big Bang Theory. BAZINGA!”

      God, when did this place turn into such a shit-flinging, anti-book site? Every comment section is the same.

      OMG!! You are just so cleaver and funny!! Saying someone likes the Big Bang Theory in order to insult them. I have never heard that before. Maybe next time, you say “go watch Law & Order, or CSI or, oh my, reality tv!!!” Wouldn’t that show those people who don’t like the books!

      And now go say you “stuck a nerve” because that’s just as cleaver!

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    83. mau: I disagree. This story will have “Horcruxes” (how to defeat the Others), but this is character. Not just same information, but character, and people need to care about him.

      No they don’t. They only need to care about the protagonists. They need to care about how the secondary characters affect the protagonists. Remember, the purpose of secondary characters is to act as foils (= plot devices) for the main characters. The issue with which the POV characters (and readers) will be wrestling are:

      Do I accept that Aegon is who he seems to be? Do I use him against the Lannisters? Do I kneel to him (primogeniture!) or to his Aunt (dragons!) In particular, the story for Daeny will be one of self-doubt: according to one set of rules, she should submit to her nephew; however, by another set of rules, he should submit to her.

      In other words, what they need to care about is: is Daeny making the right choice? Is Sansa choosing the right one? Is Arya choosing the right one? Is Jon making the right choice with regards to them? Is Davos advising Stannis properly on the issue? If GRRM does that (or B&W if they go that way), then their mission is accomplished.

      Incidentally, if you are expecting some “horcrux” or “One Ring” equivalent for the WW, then I think that you will be disappointed. They seem to have what they need to deal with them. There also isn’t an obvious equivalent of Harry’s Scar for feeding a story. I think that Babylon 5 might be the best guide here: the issue is (as always) going to be: what are the WW really? What are their motives and goals? And what it’s going to come down to is different lead characters having different (and probably self-conflicting) ideas about how to handle them, and how to deal with the “rivalry” (for lack of a better word) between them, R’hllor, the trees and goodness knows what else.

      Hodor Targaryen: I’d say Aegon is more like the way JK Rowling added the Deathly Hallows, or added a bunch of rules about wands that had never been introduced beforehand.

      Actually, what YG might be most like is the last Minister of Magic (who’s name escapes me). He also was introduced in the penultimate book. He was staunchly against Voldemort: but Harry could not support his strategies or his tactics. Basically, it was a politics vs. philosophy issue: the politically expedient thing was philosophically reprehensible to Harry, and the philosophically correct thing to do was impolitic. (It actually was very Game of Thrones, as some people noted at the time!) I can see something very similar here:

      Daeny is going to want to help and support Aegon on on hand, but she won’t kneel to him; I can see others like Sansa pushing her to do so.

      The big dilemma that YG is going to introduce for a lot of people is the wish that he and his aunt could stay united. (I expect that they initially will unite in the face of the Lannisters: but as many real world conflicts show us, once a really dislikable enemy is vanquished, alliances can crumble quickly.)

      Hodor Targaryen: I’m trying to think of a show like GoT that introduced important threats near the end of their run that wasn’t frustrating…can you give some examples?

      Recent serials that introduced late “threats” (or antagonistic characters) include Lost, Dexter, House, TruBlood, Tudors, Battlestar Galactica, 6 Feet Under and Sex in the City. If we include film series like this, then Harry Potter obviously gets added. In the case of Lost, BG, TruBlood and the Tudors (and I think Sex & the City), all of the cards were on the table by the end of the penultimate season, but not until then. The others had less over-arching plots. (Harry Potter actually added one moderately important plot element in the last book, too!)

      Now, as for what was and was not “frustrating,” I cannot answer. Some people found all of those frustrating in one way or another. However, as all of them had been adding characters/plot details throughout their histories, it probably wasn’t that. Instead, it usually was that people envisioned a different ending than they got. (That was very true for all of them save Sex & the City and the Tudors.) And, no matter how GoT ends, there are going to be a lot of frustrated people who wanted a different ending. This thread here demonstrates that!

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    84. tyjon,

      Yeah and JonCon would be Jasper tudor…I know that story very well, and that’s one the reasons I enjoyed reading that paralell in the book but oh well.. I have no problem with just having Daenerys, but I would still enjoy the plot of having her have to decide between her duty (which would be giving the throne to her nephew) and what she really wants.

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    85. Wimsey: Maginor

      I don’t think that is a satisfactory explaination, because Robert wouldn’t have any idea about Aegon’s existence anyway. It is only the existence of Daenerys and Viserys that makes him think about running spy operations across the Narrow Sea at all. This suggests that Daenerys and Viserys are important to his plans in their own right. The assassination attempt is a desperate attempt at getting them to start their invasion. Either Aegon joins them or he saves Westeros from the Dothraki. Varys wants Aegon as the king of a Westeros that is ideally not ruined by civil war. Littlefingers instigation of the war of the five kings is what makes Varys botch his own plans by trying to force them into action too early (and partly they are botched by circumstances outside his control such as Viserys being and idiot, and Mirri’s killing of Drogo). Varys probably wants Robert to survive until Aegon is ready to be presented as a savior after Roberts death and after Roberts direct heirs are shown to be illegitimate.

      The biggest counterargument to this is why the hell does Varys let Littlefinger do that? I’m sure he could easily have Littlefinger killed without it being traced back to him. Does he not realize what Littlefinger is doing until it is too late? He was even there when Littlefinger framed Tyrion. Maybe Varys sees what is happening, but just goes along with it because a Lannister-Stark conflict may make Ned an ally for Aegon with a unique position in Kings Landing, but then things just happen too fast?

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    86. Maginor,

      I see varys and littlefinger as opposites. Varys wanted the dothraki to invade westeros in order to unite the houses in order to fight off the threat. He wants a united realm. Aegon couldve been the savior. Littlefinger wants the realm to go into chaos and everyone to fight each other because as he said chaos is a ladder, he can climb to the top when everyone is killing each other. However I think littlefinger did everything for Cat he wanted her to be his, the red wedding changed his entire plan though. Now i think he is truly out for vengeance and plans to destroy house lannister completely. I think he was the one who really poisoned tywin by using one of his agents. Afterall he was involved in the only other 2 poisonings in the story of jon arryn and joffrey. Littlefinger might end up being the valonqar too. Cat called him little brother when they were kids i believe. And now he has replaced Cat with someone more beautiful, Sansa. So now he wants to gain as much power as possible marry sansa and destroy house lannister. While Varys wants to bring stability to the realm and place a blackfyre on the throne. Basically if they have Varys support Dany it makes him seem like a minor player. He hasnt helped her in ANY way so far. Unless you count helping her lose Jorah and almost getting her killed. I dont think Varys knows Littlefinger killed Jon Arryn and maybe he believed that really was Littlefingers dagger, from the show it seems Varys only know littlefinger is trouble but i doubt he knows what hes specifically done.

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    87. Maginor,
      It’s a smoke screen:

      while Robert is fixated on Viserys and Daeny, he is much less apt to accidentally discover Aegon. As Tyrion demonstrates, disguises never are fool-proof, and former allies can become enemies. So, constantly targeting and then “missing” V. & D. keeps Robert’s eye on them.

      However, you are (I think!) correct:

      Daeny & Viserys had places in the plan, at least in the end. It’s not clear exactly what that was: many fans believe that Aegon & the Golden Company was supposed to save Westeros from the Dothraki hoards, but the members of the Golden Company report that they were told that they were going to join up with the Dothraki led by Viserys. It is never discussed how they intended to handle Viserys: one, they had to know that Viserys was nuts, and, two, they had to know that he would not easily surrender his claim to his uncle even if they convinced him that is who he was. (Given Tyrion’s description, the resemblance between Aegon & Viserys would be striking: but Viserys is a little cuckoo!) They also expected Daeny to be a pliable young woman once her brother died: and they could not have been more incorrect. There is almost no way that Illyrio ever expected those eggs he gave her to hatch, too: which might prove ironic in the end.

      This is one thing that I doubt we’ll ever read in the books: exactly how the plan evolved over the years. Clearly, they were (as all tacticians must) making do with whatever options became available at a given time. However, not matter how well you line up your troops, they sometimes do not do what you expect them to do.

      As for your final question, the answer is simple:

      Varys doesn’t know what Littlefinger is doing, and he did not know that Littlefinger was going to off Arryn. Varys might never have figured out that. Varys freely admits to Illyrio that he has no idea what Littlefinger’s game is when Arya overhears them. Moreover, Littlefinger’s plan involved only two people: himself and Lysa. Varys probably knew that they were having an affair: but Lysa killing Arryn was a much less obvious explanation to Varys than the Lannister’s killing Arryn. Varys knows a lot: but he is not omniscient.

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    88. Jofrey’s Cunt: I would still enjoy the plot of having her have to decide between her duty (which would be giving the throne to her nephew) and what she really wants.

      As GRRM frequently notes, things like that are the heart of what he considers to be a good story. More over, you can rephrase it: it’s duty as some see it (following primogeniture), and duty as others see it (conquest and strength). It’s an angel on the right shoulder disagreeing with an angel on the left shoulder!

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    89. Wimsey,

      This is pretty good. I always like a nice Varys conspiracy theory discussion.

      KingQueen,

      I think the word you’re looking for is “clever”, but thank you! May you Bazinga in peace, friend.

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    90. I’m actually quite glad Hill has indirectly spilled the beans here.

      No offense to anybody hoping to see (f)aegon’s character in the show, but now we can finally put this speculation to rest, at least as it pertains to this character emerging from the lands of Essos. (I’m interested in the Dornish Aegon idea, though not sold- and still think we may get some blackfyre twist involving Varys…)

      And I mean this not as slight to anybody actively engaged in speculation. Keep on rocking in the free world. What I mean is I take this as a welcome glimpse to the shape of the future of this adaptation. I am more excited than I have been to see this show play out its own story, and allow the books to (hopefully, someday) represent another story altogether. I have always been hopeful that Martin could get it done in time, and would rather not be spoiled by the producers of the show, but have come to accept the idea that the show is going to finish this for us, and they will be separate entities, having unique “perspectives” on the events that take place. As the show rejects more and more of the plot lines, I believe the books can breathe in an entirely alternate universe, and they can actually coexist peacefully as two separate stories, neither (fully) spoiling the other. To me that’s cool, because thats just more entertainment to enjoy.

      Ok. Puff puff give…

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    91. My initial reaction to the alleged Aegon Targaryen when he turned up in ADWD was pretty negative– not only because his introduction seemed to detract from Jon and Dany, but also because Aegon himself was such a bland construct. While there were some interesting pieces around him (Jon Connington, the Golden Company) I found Aegon to be so uncharismatic that I didn’t care in the slightest about his quest to claim the throne that should have been his father’s. What ultimately saved the storyline for me was the epilogue, specifically Varys explaining exactly why he intended to help Aegon take the Iron Throne. A legitimate Aegon Targaryen held no interest for me, but a questionable “Aegon” backed by Varys certainly did because Varys is an interesting character to me. He’d been a consistently enigmatic presence since the very first book, and now it seemed he was finally laying his cards on the table.
      The primary reason that the “Trystane is secretly Aegon” theory intrigued me was that it would preserve the overall structure of Varys’s plan while cutting down on the time it would take to introduce a new faction of characters. Dorne appears set up to support Aegon in the novels, so consolidating their forces from the outset made a fair amount of sense. Furthermore, since Aegon had been such a cipher in the novels, I didn’t feel that we would lose much by altering his origin. However, I’ve since cooled on the theory a bit. Ultimately, I think it’s highly unlikely that Aegon will be on the show, and I’m perfectly fine with that. When it comes to television, I’m strongly in favor of a cleaner, more efficient story focused primarily on the established characters, and excising Aegon’s storyline serves that goal. Varys supporting Dany may be a deviation, but it’s far from a radical one, and if it undermines his image as this grand mastermind, then so be it. I still find Conleth Hill’s performance to be wonderful, and Varys becoming a more recognizably human, relatable, and even fallible character is far from the worst thing in the world from my perspective (I was fine with seeing Littlefinger taken down a few pegs last season for the same reason). Varys may not have backed Dany unequivocally from the beginning, but circumstances change, and as Hill himself says, people are capable of changing their minds as well.
      As things presently stand for both the show and the books, I’m primarily interested in “Aegon” as an extension of Varys and Illyrio’s plans (and to a lesser extent, how other characters will respond to him). Until either medium inspires me to care about Aegon for his own sake, he remains what he has always been – a means to an end. And if that end ultimately isn’t worth the digressive, time-intensive journey required to set up and pay off his campaign properly, then I’m inclined to view Aegon as highly expendable – especially with only two seasons left after this one.

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    92. Intriguing about “order not to kill”

      He can easily point to Ned trying to rescind the order on Roberts deathbed, even though he replied “that bird has already flown”

      Can also claim that to follow the Targs in S1 would mean Viserys, not Dany, and to be loyal to Dany would mean fostering relations with a Dothraki horde

      Being loyal to the Baratheon/Lannisters wasn’t quite understood as far as Joffreys reign was concerned, there was no Wo5K yet, a war which saw quite a lot of people adjusting their allegiances, and of course swapping sides, ala Tyrells and Boltons

      So it’s not really controversial at all that Varys would have changed, they’ve made a point of pointing out he’s unimpressed at Joffreys wedding. Plus they’ve pushed the angle he dislikes magic, so he rather ironically prefers Dany to Stannis

      I reckon there is actually scope for him to potentially switch again and become loyal to Jon Snow at the end of it all if Dany turns “Fire and Blood” on everyones asses (hope she does)

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    93. Jared,

      I agree with the above. I was confused when Aegon was introduced in the books, but when I read later theories that he may only be a BF pretender, unbeknownst to himself and JonCon (all Varys and Illyrio need is the BELIEF that this is so after all), it got me extremely interested in Varys’s game, the GC and the set-up his arrival will create in Westeros once Danearys arrives later.

      What is more confusing, however, is how Dany, Jon and Aegon (or Tyrion) possibly fit into the 3-headed dragons theory. This theory has not yet been mentioned on the show (it could be, who knows), but it also possibly implies a metaphor for a second upcoming dance of dragons and then this trio as the three dragons does make sense (in the books universe). Wasn’t the Dance with Dragons about fake and real Targs? (I don’t remember exactly).

      The point is, show-wise we don’t need YG for various reasons already stated by Jared and others in this thread. More importantly, his absence thus far further affirms (to me at least) that the second important Targ heir to be revealed might be Jon and no-one else in the show, at least. Adding YG to the show would seriously undermine the possible L+R=J reveal and all its implications. (oh, another Targ….. oh wait, ANOTHER ONE!)

      Someone was dropping hints on the threads a while ago that there would be a conversation between Cersei and the High Sparrow about Lyanna (which further opens the possibility that Howland Reed might be the HS, in my opinion) and that Mel sees something in her fires related to Jon Snow in S5. That is why I believe that Jon as a yet unrevealed spanner in the works could completely throw off the war between Dany and, Lannisters and the other related factions, both in the show and books. His heritage will however, have to play an important (if not direct) role in the war against the Others and not just because it makes him a true contender for the throne.

      Thus, I think the show will focus on the roles that already established characters could play in the future of Westeros. YG is a means to get Dany to Westeros in the books and introduce a good character like JonCon. In the show something else could be used to do this.

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    94. Wimsey,

      Couldn’t agree more, but we can only be sure when it starts, as I said, the interview seems to confirm that it has been cut, but he could also be talking about other storylines, I will hope that quote on the trailer was just to fool us and we will get YG as a surprise like Ramsay and the Reeds on season 3

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    95. Morna the Witch,

      Not sure they have done the “Dragon has three heads” in the show so wouldn’t matter

      Agree that if Aegon is legit it is confusing and too late for me to be invested in him

      If he is a Blackfyre though, I love it, as it is a case of the Golden Company and their candidate coming home for one last push.

      Black or Red a Dragon is still a Dragon means he will be able to take over a Dragon

      Think the original Dance was between a Female Targ and a Male Targ competing over a claim to the throne, I think later was the Blackfyre rebellion with Bittersteel at its head, that might have been the war of the Ninepenny Kings which involved Brynden Rivers who is now 3-eyed-Raven mentoring Bran

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    96. Jofrey’s Cunt: the interview seems to confirm that it has been cut, but he could also be talking about other storylines

      Well, it conforms that it is cut from this season. (Something we already knew.) The actors won’t know what is coming for Season 6. Remember, they don’t even show the actors the scripts from scenes in which they do not appear while they are filming. (This comes up every time one of the actors comments about how he/she couldn’t believe something in their script; posters here immediately suggest one of the many stunning things, only to have several other people point out that as that involved different characters at a different “place,” the actor interviewed would not have read the script.)

      The only thing that hints that YG is cut is the fact that they probably would have told Hill that his character is a double double agent: he’s pretending to work for the Baratheons while pretending to work for one set of Targaryens while really working for another Targaryen. (Whew….)

      As for the Three Heads of the Dragon, well, that’s probably going to be relevant for the three people that wind up with Dragons: and as the show has three of them, it still will come up in that sense. I have no idea if they will actively mention it: it would seem that this year would be the first sensible time to do so, although it really might not make sense to do it until next year.

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    97. Jared,

      I would actually argue the opposite: the only way that

      Aegon will really serve the story is if he really is Daeny’s nephew. That will create a real dilemma for Daeny. The rules of primogeniture state that the eldest son of the eldest son etc. inherits: rule passes to a daughter only if her eldest son father has no sons. Moreover, it’s come up a few times that many Westerosi are morally opposed to female leaders. However, part of Daeny’s claim to rule is based on inheritance. On the other hand, one of the lessons of the Game is that might makes right: and Daeny is the one with Three Dragons, not Aegon. Moreover, although Aegon has been raised well to rule justly, Daeny has actually has experience doing so.

      So, this creates an ethical dilemma for Daeny: part of her will say “kneel to your nephew,” and part of her will say “nephew, kneel to me.”

      Similarly, an imposter Aegon presents no dilemma for the rest of Westeros: Daeny is the heir, not Aegon. However, for this to feed a story, the other characters (particularly Sansa, Arya and Tyrion) have to have some mixed views on who they should support. Davos should have mixed views on what he recommends to Stannis.

      An imposter Aegon presents no dilemmas. He would just be gratuitous plot for the sake of plot.

      (Of course, it does occur to me: GRRM might be making this mistake and B&W might be cutting it for that reason! However, it seems pretty improbable. If you count the number of things that we are told are false that must be true for one idea and for the other, the version in the book wins. If you count the number of improbable things that must be true for one idea and for the other idea, then the version in the books wins by even more.)

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    98. HBO wants to let the

      Young Griff know he can take his claim to the throne, turn it sideways, polish that sumbitch up real good and Stick it up HIS CANDY ASS!!

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    99. Jesterr223456:
      Renly’s Peach,

      That’s usually what happens when you don’t have any arguments to make,result to pettty insults,typical of book purists . If you want to see only book worshipping and show hate i advise you to go to westeros.org,i hear that’s a great place for people of your kind .

      Please, that’s exactly what you and other people like hoty do all the time, insult Martin and insult those who like books 4&5 …but specially Martin. In.Every.Fucking.Post.

      I didn’t like Aegon. I hated book 4. I don’t like Dorne. I also don’t like some (many?) things about the show. Yet I love the books and I love the show. And I love Martin and D&D for creating them. This fanatism in hate can’t speak of a healthy mind or a happy life. I pity you guys :/

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    100. Wimsey:
      As for the Three Heads of the Dragon, well, that’s probably going to be relevant for the three people that wind up with Dragons: and as the show has three of them, it still will come up in that sense.

      That is the ideal scenario, of course…matching Targ blood to dragons. However, I don’t believe we will be given such an ideal scenario, in either book or show. I believe the prophecy only relates to people (and the show probably won’t consider it at all).

      Ever thought of how R&V will react when they see their mother riding Drogon when she returns (especially after she had them chained)? Do you actually see all three dragons making it to Westeros? The only dragons that made a difference in the past were many decades old, not just a few years old (although R&V may learn about war quite quickly!).

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    101. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I don’t think that all 3 dragons make it to Westeros. If so, that sadly ends the “three heads of the dragon” discussions. I hope that I am wrong but I have a bad feeling about one of those fire-breathing kids.

      With all of the great discussion about Dany and Varys, etc…

      I would like to hear further thoughts about what will be taking place in Dorne and how it integrates into Dany and Varys’ story lines now that Aegon appears to be cut. (There are many intuitive posters here.) Obviously, it will be a substantially different story than in the books. Ellaria appears to be taking a more active role and perhaps taking on some of Arianne’s function. Assuming that Trystane isn’t Aegon and that he will not be freeing dragons a la Quentyn, what will he do? Filming reports seem to indicate that Jaime is in Dorne for most of the season. Is Jaime convinced to support the Queenmaker plot?

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    102. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Well, in the first Tyrion chapter

      R & V already are acquitting themselves well. They can catch and eat dead humans flung from trebuchets. My guess is that GRRM decided that dragons grow really fast in order to help out his plot!

      And, yes, I think that all three make it. I don’t think that there is going to be too much more waiting: I think that Tyrion is right and that once Daeny hears about Aegon, she will gather up her army of Dothraki, Unsullied and other Essosi, and then head west. (Whether the Iron Born are relevant at that point, I don’t know: my guess is that their attempt to take control of the dragons will result in Blood and Fire; however, many might survive and kneel to Daeny once the Greyjoy brothers are toast.)

      At any rate, I don’t see any reason to expect the dragons to die.

      My thought is that the prophecy seems to be there for people to puzzle out: but the dragons will decide it. That will make it unnecessary on TV. We’ll get the “three heads” but we won’t hear the term. (Of course, it is possible that it could be raised this year, too: but it would have to be re-raised later because the audience won’t remember words like that.)

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    103. mariamb,

      The story need not be different at all. From the few chapters of Winter we’ve gotten and the setup from the end of Dragons, it looks like WoW will be a story about

      choosing sides, and specifically choosing enmity against those you once and/or would rather befriend.

      YG is an obvious tool for that story. However, he is by no means the only way to do this. (As I noted, B&W might have decided that the “Anastasia” motif is just a little too worn out: after all, doesn’t every every Tolkien story involve that? 🙂 ). It should not take too much imagination to contrive a different immediate ally, later enemy. The plot elements and secondary characters change, but the story is the same.

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    104. Wimsey,

      Well, there are differences because characters are different. The story may, in fact, stay the same. I would be eager to hear your speculation as to how the story is brought forward and what characters take on the necessary functions.

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    105. Cumsprite: Sorry, all GM. He even mentioned wanting to name a character Cookie Monster, but thought it would be too over-the-top.

      I am not joking.

      He could have gone with Sid Tully. That’s right, Cookie Monster has a real name.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Wimsey,

      One of the great images coming out of the battle of Meereen is of Viserion catching the pale mare corpses in mid-air and Rhaegal taunting the ships in the harbor. But…I also wonder about their vulnerability. Those massive trebuchets (Wicked Sister!), along with hundreds of archers, can be quite effective against those young dragons….as was proven in past tales.

      Will we be cheering for dragons or humans in the great battle of Meereen, and beyond? 🙂

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    107. mariamb,

      I guess I’ll be an optimist and hope with Wimsey that all 3 make it to Westeros….it would be more fun, that’s for sure. But war is unpredictable and who knows what the horn will do, if anything.

      Regardless of that though, I think that Dany will arrive in Westeros (by air) many weeks before her seasick army arrives. What she does in Westeros to taunt and intimidate the locals and establish a stronghold (Vale? Dragonstone? Storms End?) during that time is a speculator’s goldmine.

      I believe the Dorne perspective does matter significantly when she arrives though!

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    108. Hodor’s Bastard,

      In the show, is there a horn in Dany’s vicinity? (I can’t recall.) In the books, Vic has it…or has one of them. And yes, Dany may have some time to gather allies and/or terrorize locals before her entourage arrives. The Vale is a perfect dragon roost but not a great place for Dany. Dragonstone then? The Martells and their plans are crucial to Dany’s success but she needs an introduction. Doran may view Dany as better match for Trystane than Myrcella.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Jesterr223456,

      I love how you immediately assume I’m a “book purist” – only because I’m tired of people constantly talking bad about the books in every comment section. I guess you have a lot of war scars from book purist skirmishes that haunt you to this day? If someone were relentlessly talking bad about the show, I’d call them out on it, too.

      So at this point I have to assume you’re either a paranoid instigator, or just a troll. I’m thinking most of the heated anti-book posts are trolls, actually.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Wimsey,

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Tyrion

      is given a book by Varys on their way to meet Dany- schools up, and in the process educates the audience on “the dragon has three heads”…. It will make sense as there are three dragons, and people will start guessing. Not a bad way to start drip feeding hints at future reveals.

      That said,

      I also wouldn’t be surprised if

      they invade westeros, in the show, less one dragon.

      Hodor’s Bastard,

      My money is on

      Dragonstone, at least, at first. In the show, it has been left undefended, it has the parallel history, and Dany was… born of a storm, on dragonstone.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Crabber’s Son,

      I think it could work really well too.

      I think without the time to fully explain the Blackfyre thing having Tystane hidden in his mother’s homeland under the protection of his uncle makes perfect sense. Would keeep Dorne relevant and act as an opposing faction to Dany plus it keeps them relevant without Arianne and Quentyne chasing Targs to marry. Keeps the Sandsnakes ( wlel two of them) relevant by positioning them in KL and it makes Varys and Illyrios rather lax attitude to what Dany has been doing more understandable as they’ve been using her to divert attention from Aegon/Trystane. I’d leave Jaime out of any Jon Con role though. He’s got his own story to embark upon. Doran and Varys plus perhaps someone cast as the head of the Golden Company could easily take Jon Cons role. We’ll have to wait and see but now they’ve introduced Dorne they’ll need to keep them relevant or just drop them altogether.

      Luka Nieto,

      Can’t seem to navigate to the article on it (just seems to be posts discussing the article itself). Will plod on with conversation about it regardless though!
      One of the few interesting things I found in Dany’s Slaver’s Bay exploits were the parrallels with the situation in the Middle East, specifically Iraq. A more liberal power comes in and removes a totalitarion regime that imposed a strict lifestyle on individuals that allowed them very few and in some cases no liberties. When that regime was removed the Western powers (Dany) assumed that the people would all be overjoyed and be able to grow from there but old habits die hard. As I think Jorah said in the show (?) slaves come to love their chains and didn’t know what to do with their freedom and old traditions that gave structure to people’s lives like the fighting pits ( perhaps strict dogmatic religious beliefs?) refused to go away as those engaged in them needed and maybe even wanted them to survive. The native population came to resent the occupying force and attacks are made upon them. Also, each city without her presence ( Western troops stationed there!) reverted back to it’s old ways only under a different face. When I saw the the trailer for the new season and I saw the harpy statue falling it instantly reminded me of that iconic scene where the people of Baghdad pulled down Saddam’s statue. A sign of hope that sadly was merely a face change and not a the sort of progress of society that ( at least to us liberal Westerners) would benefit the people as a whole. A change of attitudes has to come from within and not imported as Dany is finding out to her shagrin. Wonder if the show will explore these ideas in more depth? Not that they’re shying away from them now but I wouldn’t grumble at a little more depth to it.

        Quote  Reply

    112. mariamb,

      Personally, I’m hoping for the Dornish and Trystane to become Aegon and his faction and Euron to peg up in Mereen ( during the siege which I think having Iron Islanders turn up out of the blue to ‘save the day’ so to speak would be an excellent introduction for him and create viewer interest in the character). Think they need to lay the groundwork with Balon’s death and have characters talk about him having taken over, the suspicious circumsatnces of Balon’s death, the reputation of Euron and sightings of his very distinctive ship. Think it’s just hopefulyness from myself at the moment but I think it would really add something to the story and that part of the world especially the impending Siege of Mereen.

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    113. TheTouchOfFrost,

      I’ve read alot about guns on walls on this sight lately.

      Balon’s death

      is a case where there was a gun on the wall, it was picked up, the trigger was pulled, and yet it never went off. At this stage I actually think it is now too late for that to happen.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Of the Night,

      Defective, impotent leech (it was probably the leech that Mel placed on Gendry’s dick). Lucky Balon. But it sort of aligns with the non-presence/non-factor of the Greyjoy uncles in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    115. TheTouchOfFrost,

      The way I see it the best way to currently tie it up is that Yara returns to the Pyke and finds out that he’s been dead for a while and they kept it secret.

      Other ways it could have been done better (depending on the direction they took the story) in my opinion are…
      1) Greyjoys are in the end irrelevant in the show. Stannis burns leech, Balon dies, Yara bend the knee to either Joffrey/Tommen or Stannis.
      2) Greyjoys are still relevant but doesn’t matter which ones. Stannis never burns leech since Balon never publicly declared himself a king in the show, Balon lives and does whatever Euron does.
      3) Euron specifically needs to be king. Stannis burns leech, Balon dies in a reasonable time frame. Euron does what Euron does.

      The Kingsmoot itself is unnecessary in any event (despite the fact I would have enjoyed watching it).

        Quote  Reply

    116. Of the Night,

      Pretty much agree with all of that except the leech bit. Think it was made very clear that that third leech had Balon’s name on it so think it would be silly for him to carry on regardless. I think the big decider will be how relevant Asha/Yara is up north and how relevant Euron is in the grand scheme of things.
      Again , I would have preferred the Kingsmoot and witnessing Balon’s death but if it happens off screen it won’t be the end of the world. Would like the Ironborn to be included in some capacity. Think they’re an interesting wild card, an x factor that no one is really sure of how they’ll affect the storyline ( which I think is really needed now it looks like Aegon is gone) as they don’t have any alleigence to anyone. Plus Euron as a character is intriguing with a lot of potential.

        Quote  Reply

    117. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Yara returns to Pyke angry at failing her brother, ashamed at running when she should have fought, it is not the Ironborn way to retreat. As she enters the great hall with the Seastone chair she sees it is facing the fire, her father sits upon it. From the doorway she can only see his hand flipping a coin between his fingers with great dexterity. At his feet two women sleep bare upon a great rug that was made from some great beast most likely native to the summer isles or the mysterious lands of Yi Ti. This couldn’t be her father, Yara draws her axe, “Who are you and how dare you sit on my fathers chair!” The hand flips the coin and catches it, the figure stands abruptly. “Yara, darling you should speak with more respect to your uncle, let alone your king,” The hairs on the back of Yara’s neck stand, a sensation she has not felt since she was a babe. “Euron?! Where is my father he will show you no mercy for this,” Euron smiles, a sinister smile, the only one she has ever seen him make, and his eye stares at her with the fierceness of a kraken. “Your father had a terrible accident he is with the drowned God my precious niece, what is dead may never die…..oh and please, I go by Daario these days,”

        Quote  Reply

    118. Of the Night,

      If so, that worries me. I like to think they have a long term plan in motion and to include something like that then disregard it is a bit poor.

      Crabber’s Son,

      Think I’d prefer a Jack Sparrow like entrance on a ship! Can’t say I subscribe to the Daario = Euron theory. Mainly because I like Euron and I think Daario is a clown!

        Quote  Reply

    119. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Ya its a pretty crazy theory I was just kidding but I think the actor whos daario could pull of a decent euron just imagine his personality completely different its the only way I could ever care about daario and not see him as pretty pointless character. I definitely think daario is some sort of villain who has a hidden agenda.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Renly’s Peach:
      Jesterr223456,

      I love how you immediately assume I’m a “book purist” – only because I’m tired of people constantly talking bad about the books in every comment section. I guess you have a lot of war scars from book purist skirmishes that haunt you to this day? If someone were relentlessly talking bad about the show, I’d call them out on it, too.

      So at this point I have to assume you’re either a paranoid instigator, or just a troll. I’m thinking most of the heated anti-book posts are trolls, actually.

      But the books are Shit … Just kidding, both the books and the show are Equally awesome. I don’t think jester was bashing the book in any way though, I just think he sees some specific characters/storylines aren’t fit for adaptation on screen.. ummm yeah and I kinda hate book purists too, the constant nit-picking on everything even if it’s so small, not being on the show gives me headache. I once heard someone bitchin’ about tywins death scene on the show because he was supposed to Fart after being hit by the crossbolt (seriously? did that even happen in the books? I don’t really remember). Or someone bashing the show for some scene about Renly’s Peach being cut…. Could be you, don’t remember either… What I’m saying is, Let’s try getting along and enjoy the show although different yet equally entertaining as the books.

        Quote  Reply

    121. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Well show Daario is no clown, and that is all that counts, not what the book version is like, HBO GoT is a different beast altogether.
      Readers need to remember to completely take out the “book (name) is not like that, he/she would never do that.” when it comes to the show versions of said characters.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Styr me a nice Juicy Slice of Ginger Minge Please,

      Yeah, I agree that the scene wouldn’t have translated that well as written, but…if I may be so bold…I must encourage you to read or re-read that particular chapter (ASoS, Chap 77), if nothing else. It simply is one of the defining GRRM moments in the series. Extremely well-written and gut-wrenching. As you know, Tywin had this self-perpetuated grandiose & powerful aura about him. Throughout the first three books, it was mused by many that Tywin actually shit gold. So in that incredulous scene where Tyrion kills Tywin in the privy after killing Shae (and after Tywin trivializes something very important to Tyrion), Tywin’s bowels come loose in his dying moments and it was proven then and there that Tywin did not shit gold.

      So slap the fucker who trivialized it as farting!! 🙂

      Cheers!

        Quote  Reply

    123. Because men who fear and dislike strong women assume that all males fear strong women.Like most things that such people believe, it’s false.Indeed, strong men hope to meet women like Daeny!

      Bingo.

        Quote  Reply

    124. crabbers son,

      True. The only thing that could make me like Daario is changing his personality completely!

      tyjon,

      Show Daario is even worse than the book version. At least the book version was so over the top it was mildly entertaining. The show version is still a dick just a wet , slimy one who does sod all. Sooner he’s killed off… or turned into Euron ( if you’re that way inclined!) the better.

        Quote  Reply

    125. tyjon:
      Jofrey’s Cunt,

      The reason for YG was that ASoIaF uses elements of the War of the Roses in it’s story structure. Henry Tudor was an exiled heir as a child to early adulthood and had to flee along with Jasper Tudor (his guardian and teacher). He and his forces invaded England and engaged Richard III at Bosworth. It’s easy to notice the comparison’s if you know your British History.
      The problem with GRRM was he and D&D likewise made Dany’s rise to power so interesting that readers and tv fans became devoted followers. Suddenly throwing YG into the fray as the real heir was a slap to all Dany fans (which are a large if not the largest tv audience.

      That description of Henry Tudor fits Dany as well. She was also someone with royal ties raised in exhile.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Sue the Fury: Chriss

      That’s fine. I’ll leave. I’d rather go than lapse into constant flame wars with people who have an obvious chip on their shoulder. It was good while it lasted. Adieu.

        Quote  Reply

    127. WeirwoodTreeHugger: Okay,so when women see sexist language and point it out(or in this case just ask for clarification because it may or may not be a sexist comment ), we’re too sensitive and should just grow up and keep quiet about our silly concerns.

      But, reading a discussion about sexism makes you uncomfortable so it’s completely acceptable for you to complain about it? Because we should cater to your feelings of discomfort you experience at having to read about sexism.But the people who actually experience it should just get over it.

      That’s rather hypocritical.

      No. The insinuation was there. If it was just ‘asking for clarification’, then it would have been merely cringeworthy, instead of petulant and brattish. Further, you say ‘we’ as if I was referring to all women, as if the sisterhood is being attacked. Sorry, you don’t talk for women, and I wasn’t talking about women. I was referring mainly to hysterics, including, and in fact mostly, the guy who commented after her.

      So please, save your gender war drama for someone else. I won’t humour your ridiculous nonsense.

      Now, further, the apriorism that his language was sexist is beyond stupid. Evoking the comical image of a fan girl is not sexist, considering it’s *very* common. Or, if the poster did indeed assume a mainly female fanbase for Dany – that assumption that a strong female role model will have a predominantly female fanbase is no surprise either. You need to be some sort of histrionic on a war path, looking for injustice to find sexism in it.

      And frankly I’m not going to sit in a community where sanctimonious zealots get to fling around damaging smears with no discouragement or rebuke. Who wants to be in the company of such patronising scolds? No thank you. Enjoy your oppression quest on your own, and enjoy all the attention it brings you.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Shipp,

      Shipp: That description of Henry Tudor fits Dany as well. She was also someone with royal ties raised in exhile.

      Shipp: That description of Henry Tudor fits Dany as well. She was also someone with royal ties raised in exhile.

      George takes a lot of his stuff from history. Henry VIII has to have been the inspiration for Aegon IV only instead of having six wives he had six Great Bastards!
      Also a lot of parrallels between Bonnie Prince Charlie and Robb Stark. Hoping that they do a Harry Hotspur/Bonnie Prince with Rickon too!
      Always wonder how much other cultures notice/enjoy the nods and influence of European and in particular British history in the show? Because I was born, raised and live here then it’s quite intrinsic but I like to think the books and show might promote some interest in my nation’s history.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Chriss: No. The insinuation was there. If it was just ‘asking for clarification’, then it would have been merely cringeworthy, instead of petulant and brattish. Further, you say ‘we’ as if I was referring to all women, as if the sisterhood is being attacked. Sorry, you don’t talk for women, and I wasn’t talking about women. I was referring mainly to hysterics, including, and in fact mostly, the guy who commented after her.

      So please, save your gender war drama for someone else. I won’t humour your ridiculous nonsense.

      Now, further, the apriorism that his language was sexist is beyond stupid. Evoking the comical image of a fan girl is not sexist, considering it’s *very* common. Or, if the poster did indeed assume a mainly female fanbase for Dany – that assumption that a strong female role model will have a predominantly female fanbase is no surprise either. You need to be some sort of histrionic on a war path, looking for injustice to find sexism in it.

      And frankly I’m not going to sit in a community where sanctimonious zealots get to fling around damaging smears with no discouragement or rebuke. Who wants to be in the company of such patronising scolds? No thank you. Enjoy your oppression quest on your own, and enjoy all the attention it brings you.

      great use of a thesaurus if nothing else.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Chriss,

      Do you need a waaaaaahmbulance? Should I dial whine-one-one?

      All I saw was someone asking for clarification. I try to stay away from the term “fangirl”, I prefer “fanboi” even though it is still somewhat focused. It just sounds a lot better than “fanzhe”. “Fannies” will never catch on, pity. I think the very harmless point someone was making was that it’s not just girls who squee for The Mother of Eyebrows.

      Stick around. Be less histerical and abrasive and you might just learn something useful.

        Quote  Reply

    131. mau: And many book readers thought the same. YG has been just very bad plot twist. It is stupid, unnecessary, just like some soap.

      We don’t need that. It’s so cheap.

      Frankly, though ASOIAF is a very enjoyable read, it’s essentially a violent soap opera set in a fantasy world. In short, the books really aren’t anything special. Fun, but forgettable. The show has transcended GRRM. It’s simply better, IMO.

        Quote  Reply

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