Con of Thrones exclusive: Joe Dempsie on his hoped-for Season 8 duo, Gendry’s marriage prospects, and more

Caption

Photo: HBO

Actors: they’re just like us. They have favorite movies, they ride the subway — and they really want the long-hyped Cleganebowl to happen.

“Definitely the Hound and the Mountain,” Joe Dempsie said in an exclusive interview with Watchers on the Wall during last weekend’s Con of Thrones, when asked which duos he’d like to see meet up in Game of Thrones Season 8. “They’re either saving it for something epic, or it will be one of those things they won’t be able to fit in, but I’d really love to see it.”

It was a satisfactory answer, even if it wasn’t the one everyone is hoping for (will Arya and Gendry meet again?). Dempsie avoided nudges from Watchers to reveal much of anything about the eighth and final season of Game of Thrones, but we did learn that he was able to attend the second annual con because he recently wrapped filming his scenes for the last time. It’s a bittersweet career moment for Dempsie, especially as an actor who returned to a series he loved after several seasons away and now has to see the end of his character’s arc after only two seasons back.

However, with the final season looming, Gendry’s impact on the story — which was only hinted at in previous seasons — now has the possibility of being bigger and more important than anyone could have imagined.

“He’s sort of been a slow burner, hasn’t he?” Dempsie said. “For the first few seasons, I was getting itchy feet for more of a purpose for him, because he was mostly just serving as a foil for Arya. But even with those scenes, there are little nuggets that are dropped that are quite subtle.

“As the years go on, his potential significance [has become] more and more apparent, and potential is an important word,” he continued. “There’s a lot of elements of his character and his parentage that make him potentially powerful or dangerous, and he’s constantly learning more about himself. It’s almost impossible to know where he’s going to go now, based on both his ‘political’ clout, if he ever learns who he is, and his personality.”

That’s interesting phrasing, considering that Gendry is, by and large, an amiable character. It would be hard to imagine him seizing the Iron Throne by force or turning against allies. We’ve heard numerous cast members say that Season 8 will be shocking; perhaps Dempsie was hinting at a role for Gendry that we never thought he was capable of.

Surprisingly, one of those unexpected roles Dempsie could imagine for Robert Baratheon’s bastard is that of husband — to none other than Daenerys Targaryen.

“I don’t know — marry him?” Dempsie said when asked what Dany might do with the surviving son of the man who deposed her family from power. Targaryen/Baratheon marriages go back centuries, and what better way to help the realm heal after a long and bloody war? Dempsie thought it not a far-fetched possibility, although the opposite seemed just as likely to him.

“The thing about Dany that we’re seeing is her unpredictability now — you just never know what she’s going to do,” he said. “What’s this quest for further power doing to her? Sometimes I don’t even know what she would do. She would just as likely marry Gendry as burn him alive.”

Dempsie also talked about the similarities and differences between Gendry and Jon Snow — two characters who met at long last in Season 7 — noting that the two have always been “trying to figure out who they are and where they sit in their own world,” but that they also differ greatly in their experiences.

“They’re obviously from two very different worlds — Jon had privilege, even growing up as a slight outsider in a noble House, while Gendry has grown up in the streets without any kind of anchor, really,” Dempsie said. “Jon has a slightly wider worldview and experience, having been part of the Night’s Watch, and it’s just slightly less far-fetched for someone like him to be involved in something like a life-or-death struggle for the realm. Until Gendry left Flea Bottom, he had a yearning for something more but didn’t have the confidence to leave or to see it for himself. But when they meet each other they still have a common bond in being bastards, not knowing their mothers, that kind of thing.”

And as for that famous “I thought you’d still be rowing” line from Davos in Season 7 when he sees Gendry for the first time in years? Dempsie loved that Dave Benioff and Dan Weiss were willing to “wink down the camera” at fans and Dempsie himself, who tweeted “Still rowin’…#GoT” back in 2014.

“They’re not averse to putting in some crowd- or fan-pleasing moments like that,” he said. “That’s a tricky thing for [Dan and Dave], the idea that they’re keen to do their own thing, but knowing that the sooner you realize you’re not going to please everyone, the better. It’s treading the fine line between crowd-pleasing and jumping the shark, and I think they’re doing it beautifully.”

62 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Gendry’s character arc is one I’m most curious to see play out. I know his endgame will be attached to Arya’s in some way but I just can’t predict what capacity it’ll be in. I see both of them living anyways so hopefully they can get some much deserved peace after this new “long night”.

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    2. Joe Dempsie seems like a genuinely cool dude. I watched a video of him being interviewed at the Con earlier today, and he has a great sense of humour and gives good insightful answers to questions.

      I had to chuckle at his suggestion of Gendry marrying Dany though. I don’t see that happening even for a second. After all the buildup and significance of Jon and Dany, that would just be bizarre.

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    3. I think we can rule out a Gendry – Danny marriage specifically because he mentioned it. There is no way that they are going to let a spoiler like that out.
      My thought is still Gendry – Sansa although this seems unpopular.

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    4. Colin Armfield:
      I think we can rule out a Gendry – Danny marriage specifically because he mentioned it. There is no way that they are going to let a spoiler like that out.
      My thought is still Gendry – Sansa although this seems unpopular.

      I know it’s mostly unpopular because of Arya/Gendry fans, and Sansa/Sandor fans probably (and, yes, full disclosure, I certainly would prefer to see Gendry with Arya myself), but that’s not why I take issue with the idea. I do (and why I can’t see it happening at all) is because it makes absolutely no sense and it would be horribly unfair to both characters.

      Sansa has changed for the better, but Gendry is still lowborn, and acts it, and Sansa would not be down for marrying a lowborn person even if he were legitimized. She’s long past being forced to marry someone for political or any other reason. And I certainly can’t see her falling for someone who is uncouth and not well-mannered, high-born, etc. simply because that is NOT who Sansa is. Period. She is a high-born lady and if she were to choose to marry again, it’s going to be a highborn gentleman of HER choosing.

      Same goes for Gendry. Part of why he acted as he did about Arya when he found out who she was is because he found out she was highborn. The only reason they were able to remain close is because she was *unlike* every other highborn he had ever met. Sansa, again, for all that she has changed for the better, is still very much the definition of a highborn.

      So, if it were to happen, it would be horribly out of character for BOTH characters and be god-awful for BOTH characters and provide a miserable ending for BOTH characters.

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    5. On question.
      What happened to Gendry’s hammer?
      They went to great lengths to show it and the crest, then made a point of dumping it.
      Can’t see Sandor carrying the thing all over the place for him?

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    6. I am betting Gendry is legitimised by Jon in the dragon pit scene. Complete guess but it seems realistic given Joes comments.

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    7. JenniferH,

      I would also add that it makes no sense story-wise for Gendry and Sansa to be together. There is absolutely no history between them so it would feel very forced, and would suggest that a major point of Sansa’s arc would be to finally find “that man” to be with. It would be a big regression for her character.

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    8. Enharmony1625,

      I agree with everything you wrote. And there simply isn’t enough time to portray a believable romantic subplot for Sansa. I already felt that Jon & Dany was somewhat “rushed.” Plus, as you noted, it would be a “big regression” for Sansa’s character to find “that man” to be with.

      At this juncture, Sansa should have a stock line to politely fend off would-be suitors, like: “I am honored and flattered by your interest, but I just got out of a really bad marriage. And I’m so busy with my new job as Lady of Winterfell that I don’t think I have time for a relationship right now.”

      Or, Sansa could have her sister Arya dissuade lurking suitors, e.g.: “She fed her last husband alive to ravenous dogs. Then, at her behest, I sliced the throat of a guy who was perving on her. Forgive me if I’m being presumptuous. I don’t doubt that your intentions are honorable. Still, if you’re willing to take some friendly advice, allow me to suggest that it’s really not a good time to expect my sister to be in a frame of mind to favorably entertain romantic overtures. Wouldn’t you agree?”

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    9. OK, this interview is making me really tinfoily, especially

      … if he ever learns who he is…

      and

      … a common bond in being bastards, not knowing their mothers…

      In the books Gendry knows, or at least thinks he knows, who his mother was: a tavern wench with golden hair, who used to sing to him. He tells Ned this when Ned visits the blacksmith’s/armourer’s shop. I can’t remember if he told Ned this in the show.

      In the books, Gendry is still unaware of who his father is, in the show Mel revealed it to him way back in S3.

      This has me tinfoiling that Gendry’s mother wasn’t just some tavern wench… There’s a show-only theory that Gendry is actually Robert’s and Cersei’s son and not a bastard at all but the rightful heir to the Baratheon dynasty! :-O (In the books Robert and Cersei never had any children together, she aborted the only one she was pregnant with because she didn’t want to have Bobby’s kids, only Jaime’s.)

      Now, how could this be? Didn’t Cersei love her children? How could she let that baby be taken away and raised in obscurity by some tavern wench and then apprenticed to a blacksmith/armourer?

      Maybe she didn’t know. But who could’ve taken away the King’s son? Varys? To undermine the Baratheon dynasty? (In this scenario, Varys didn’t care about Joff, Myrcella and Tommen because he always knew they were incest bastards, ready to be exposed at an opportune moment.)

      Maybe Cersei did know and actually instigated this? She didn’t love the baby because it was Robert’s and she only wanted Jaime’s kids (or rather her own, since she views Jaime as an extention of herself). She stopped short of actually killing the baby, she wasn’t quite that cray-cray back then. But with Joff et al. being exposed and Gendry discovered (or at least suspected) to be Robert’s bastard, he became dangerous, so had to be killed. The show hints that Joff wanted all Bobby B’s bastards dead but in the books it’s likely Cersei’s doing.

      I’m not sure I believe this, and I’m left wondering what it’d mean for the overall story. Is there a good enough reason storywise for this to be the case?

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    10. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,
      Or, Sansa could have her sister Arya dissuade lurking suitors, e.g.: “She fed her last husband alive to ravenous dogs. Then, at her behest, I sliced the throat of a guy who was perving on her. Forgive me if I’m being presumptuous. I don’t doubt that your intentions are honorable. Still, if you’re willing to take some friendly advice, allow me to suggest that it’s really not a good time to expect my sister to be in a frame of mind to favorably entertain romantic overtures. Wouldn’t you agree?”

      Ha! I love it! 🙂

      No One can protect me. No One can protect anyone.” – Sansa (6×09)

      Little did she know.. 🙂

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    11. Also, despite what Dempsie says, Gendry wasn’t just some poor bastard orphan from Flea Bottom. That’s where he spent his earlier childhood but then he was apprenticed to one of the richest and most skillful armourers in KL and went to live on the Street of Steel. Someone (hinted to be Varys) arranged this and paid his apprentice fee.

      He was learning a very valueable and respected trade with one of the best. (In the books, his master Tobho Mott is one of the few living people who know how to reforge Valyrian steel, and indeed, reforged Ice.) In a society like Westeros, smiths and especially skilled armourers are a cut above other tradespeople like dyers (Lommy was a dyer’s apprentice) or pie shop owners (Hot Pie’s mum had a pie shop). So whoever placed him at Tobho Mott’s, was at least setting him up for a good living for a smallfolk bastard… and maybe more..?

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    12. Enharmony1625,

      Gendry and Sansa ending up together because it’s politically expedient would be a perfectly reasonable ending for both characters, in my opinion.

      It’s a ham-fisted, last minute romance that would be inappropriate.

      However, I think it’s unlikely that a political marriage will be necessary or convenient.

      The only real reason that it would be politically advantageous for Sansa to marry Gendry is if he’s legitimised as Lord of the Stormlands. But if they are both heads of their own Houses, situated at the opposite ends of the continent, then it wouldn’t really be practical.

      Under those circumstances, a Sansa/Gendry union makes even less sense bearing in mind that Arya is available to secure that union/alliance, if willing.

      While Sansa could join House Stark with some other House/kingdom, thereby consolidating House Stark’s position twice over.

      I don’t think romance and marriages will necessarily play a large part in the final season. Nor do I particularly want them to. But as long as it makes sense politically and dramatically, then I think it’s appropriate since they have been recurring factors throughout the show.

      A couple of political marriage unions would make sense and bring the show full circle, bearing mind that the story opened with the focus on families and unions formed as a consequence of Robert’s Rebellion.

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    13. Black Raven of the Suomi,

      One of the biggest unexplained moments in the entire series happens in S1E2, when Cersei, pretending to care about Bran for the sake of appearances, tells Cat about Cercei’s own first-born son, who had black hair and died very young. This never gets mentioned again, and leaves interesting questions just hanging:

      — If we assume this child was Robert’s son (and any other assumption would require a lot of explanation we didn’t get!) then he would have been the first heir to the Baratheon royal dynasty. Upon his birth, bells would have been rung in all the Septs the length and breadth of Westeros, and the child would have become an object of veneration, with a huge period of public mourning after he died. Instead, his short life became such a footnote that Cersei tells Cat as if she expects the latter to know nothing about it. How can the wife of Robert’s best buddy know nothing whatsoever about Robert’s first true-born son?

      — If the child was born to the Queen, Maester Pycelle would have attended at the birth, and kept records of it. Is this why Pycelle was singled out for a very specific murder, by the Queen’s very own Chief Master of All Work Dirty, on the very morning so many other persons of note vanished in the Sept of Baelor? At that moment, Cersei expected King Tommen to live to a ripe old age. Was she eliminating any record of a rival, true-born claimant to the throne?

      In short, there could be a lot more to Gendry than we know, and I’m looking forward to learning it.

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    14. This is the 2nd or 3rd cast referencing Dany doing crazy stuff in season 8 that’s way OOC for her (or at least what we think is out of character for her) so I’m expecting some huge twists.
      And what he’s hinting at (“What’s this quest for further power doing to her?”) makes me think Melisandre will be part of it.

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    15. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      Gendry and Sansa ending up together because it’s politically expedient would be a perfectly reasonable ending for both characters, in my opinion. …

      …snip…

      … But as long as it makes sense politically and dramatically, then I think it’s appropriate since they have been recurring factors throughout the show.

      A couple of political marriage unions would make sense and bring the show full circle, bearing mind that the story opened with the focus on families and unions formed as a consequence of Robert’s Rebellion.

      The problem I have with a Sansa/Gendry (political) marriage is that it makes little sense dramatically. For one, it’d once again regress Sansa’s character to being a pawn in the political game, after she’s struggled for the past few seasons to become a player and have agency herself.

      Secondly, the bit I bolded. I don’t want the ending to be a return to the original status quo, I want the grand story to move forward in some way. Breaking the wheel, as it were.

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    16. talvikorppi,

      It’s not tinfoilly at all. I’ve been confused all along, ever since Cersei’s (show only?) story to Catelyn about her black-haired baby – which doesn’t jive with Maggy the Frog’s prediction to Cersei that she’d have three kids. Here are excerpts from S2e2 (Gendry to Arya, about his mother), and S1e2 (Cersei to Catelyn, about her black-haired baby who “looked just like” Robert).

      (from S2e2, Gendry & Arya):

      Arya: “Who’s your mum?”
      Gendry: “Just my mum. Worked in a tavern, died when I was little.”
      _______________
      (from S1e2, Cersei & Catelyn)

      Cersei: “l lost my first boy, a little black-haired beauty. He was a fighter too – tried to beat the fever that took him. Forgive me. lt’s the last thing you need to hear right now.”
      ***
      Cersei: “lt was years ago. Robert was crazed, beat his hands bloody on the wall, all the things men do to show you how much they care. The boy looked just like him. Such a little thing. A bird without feathers. They came to take his body away and Robert held me. l screamed and l battled, but he held me. That little bundle. They took him away and l never saw him again. Never have visited the crypt, never.”
      ___________________

      Was Cersei fibbing, just to sound empathetic to Catelyn, who was at unconscious Bran’s bedside?

      I understand that unlike the show (so far), in the books GRRM has resorted to baby-switching all over the place.

      In light of the statements from Joe D.’s you highlighted, I’m super perplexed.

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    17. “I don’t want the ending to be a return to the original status quo, I want the grand story to move forward in some way.”

      My own belief says Westeros will be almost completely depopulated by the time Sam pulls the obsidian plug from Ol’ Blue Eyes. Until then, the Army of the Dead will roll unstoppably down the length of Westeros, perhaps getting a brief fight at Moat Cailin on their way South. All they have to do is to keep moving, bringing the harshest, coldest Winter in thousands of years, freezing and starving the human population as they go.

      After the defeat of the Night’s King, the humans who have hidden behind fortress walls can emerge — except for the ones in King’s Landing, where Cersei still rules. The remainder of Jon and Dany’s army then prizes open that city, with the intent of seizing the one true betrayer of humanity. Will they get her? We’ll see.

      Meanwhile, since feudalism abjectly failed to address the long-growing crisis Beyond the Wall, it will not be retained as a political system. Perhaps a Great Council becomes a proto-Parliament?

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    18. Colin Armfield,

      I’m with you on Gendry and Sansa, I think it would be a good political move and he’s a decent bloke. I don’t see Arya and him as a romantic couple as Martin has stated specifically that they have different destinies.

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    19. talvikorppi,

      Not necessarily, Gendry is a good looking guy and a decent one at that. Maybe it will be a case of love at first sight 🙂 I know, I know, it’s GOT but if Dany and Jon can ‘fall in love’ then why not Sansa and Gendry.

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    20. talvikorppi,

      I disagree about the implications for Sansa, since I envision any marriage she enters into in future, political or otherwise, to Gendry or whoever, would not be as a pawn but as a willing engagement for the benefit of her self/future/family/House/subjects/kingdom/Westeros/etc.

      Depending on how it’s portrayed, a political union could actually be an illustration of Sansa’s agency – since such marriages are a means to consolidate power, increase political influence and bolster military strength.

      I understand the desire to see the story end with some sort of meaningful change to the way Westerosi society functions and an end to the cyclical nature of events.

      But they’re not likely to switch to a democracy overnight. Nor would that be good for the characters we care about. The feudal system will likely survive, with the nature of its centralised governance perhaps changed. And political marriages will probably still be a factor. They still exist today in various forms across the world so I think it’d be unrealistic for Westeros to change that drastically by the end of the show.

      A war and winter ravaged society would look to existing figureheads and power structures for security. Dany’s Slavers’ Bay arc illustrated what happens when you dismantle a society’s power structures overnight – anarchy, rebellion, the rise of despots, etc.

      Westeros would need strong and familiar power bases, if only to successfully implement any changes they do make to the structure of society.

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    21. talvikorppi,

      I agree. After finally getting rid of LF, it’s time we see how Sansa does on her own. She’s earned that, and then some! She’s had a long list of men in her life, from Joffrey to Loras, to Tyrion, Ramsay, and Baelish. For her to finally be free of them all only to slide right back into a union with Gendry (who she still doesn’t even know exists) makes her arc seem all about “who she’s with”. And while there would be no problem with physical attraction between them, their personalities don’t mesh at all, so it wouldn’t even be satisfying on that front.

      I also don’t want to see a return to marrying off people for political reasons as a prime means of attaining and keeping power. After all the horrors that our characters have endured over the course of the story, I want there to be at least a hint of something better on the horizon at the end.

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    22. People here are putting forwards lots of good arguments against Sansa and Gendry being paired off, but there is one factor that I could see as pointing toward it happening: the repeated emphasis in Gendry’s dialogue for Season 7 on how he was abused by Melisandre, which he harped on to the point that he came across as a bit whiny (and Sandor had to tell him to shut it). Why did the writers put that into the script? Is it possible that Gendry and Sansa could eventually bond over having both been victims of sexual abuse? Certainly, based on Sansa’s conversation with Petyr and Brienne in Molestown, she seems unlikely to be keen on having another man touch her anytime soon. Perhaps with someone who has been similarly traumatized (though not over a sustained period of time, so not exactly comparable), she might gradually find healing and a romantic/marriage relationship based on tenderness.

      I know it’s a stretch, and if I had my druthers, Sansa would be looking more kindly upon Tyrion as a result of her ordeal, if she’s going to marry again at all (her staying single would be fine with me as well). But such a scenario would at least explain why they put those otherwise-inexplicable complaints in Gendry’s mouth on the trek of the Magnificent Seven north of the Wall.

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    23. Firannion,

      …the repeated emphasis in Gendry’s dialogue for Season 7 on how he was abused by Melisandre, which he harped on to the point that he came across as a bit whiny (and Sandor had to tell him to shut it). Why did the writers put that into the script?
      ___________________
      For the same reason they put into the script Melisandre’s words to Arya: “We will meet again.”

      Mel is gonna get roasted by Gendry in the same place Needle was born: in the flames of the forges of Winterfell.

      #WitchKeBob

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    24. Firannion,

      Gendry’s pain at being abused was played completely for laughs, so I doubt there was any greater purpose of that sort. They brought it up for the sake of handwaving Gendry working with Beric and Thoros.

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    25. Tensor the Mage, Pettifogging It Up Amongst the Old Birth Certificates Again,

      Haha, my nic actually means winter raven in the Suomi language, but nice of you to spot the language and the raven reference.

      I think Cersei and Robert refered to that “black-haired” kid in their show-only excellent scene where they talked about their marriage but I’m not sure and can’t go and rewatch now.

      It’s a real head-scratcher, and I gather all book people were up at arms and outraged by Cersei’s little story to Cat. I thought that little show-only scene was inserted to make the point that all Baratheon kids have black hair – unlike Joff, Myrcella and Tommen. So foreshadowing the reveal of their incest bastardry to the viewers?

      Anyway, I also find it strange that the birth and death of the fricking heir to the bloody throne seems to have been such an insignificant affair that Cat, the wife of the Warden of the North, one of the highest lords in the land, didn’t know about it. WTF?

      And as Ten Bears pointed out with his excerpt, Cersei recalls the baby’s dead body being taken away and also Robert’s grief over it. Was Cersei just lying? But how could she expect Cat to believe the story? And I think Cersei and Robert mentioned the dead baby later in S1.

      Then, in S5, Maggy the Frog prophecied three kids for Cersei. Joff, Myrcella, Tommen. Not four. :head scratch:

      I never gave any credence to the show-only theory that Gendry is Robert’s and Cersei’s kid, but this interview with Joe Dempsie brought it to my mind. It would be a huge twist.

      Good point about Pycelle.

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    26. Tensor the Mage, Always A Believer in Democracy:
      “I don’t want the ending to be a return to the original status quo, I want the grand story to move forward in some way.”

      My own belief says Westeros will be almost completely depopulated by the time Sam pulls the obsidian plug from Ol’ Blue Eyes. Until then, the Army of the Dead will roll unstoppably down the length of Westeros, perhaps getting a brief fight at Moat Cailin on their way South. All they have to do is to keep moving, bringing the harshest, coldest Winter in thousands of years, freezing and starving the human population as they go.

      After the defeat of the Night’s King, the humans who have hidden behind fortress walls can emerge — except for the ones in King’s Landing, where Cersei still rules. The remainder of Jon and Dany’s army then prizes open that city, with the intent of seizing the one true betrayer of humanity. Will they get her? We’ll see.

      Meanwhile, since feudalism abjectly failed to address the long-growing crisis Beyond the Wall, it will not be retained as a political system. Perhaps a Great Council becomes a proto-Parliament?

      Yes, I think some kind of Great Council of lords becomes a proto-parliament could be likely. It’s not democracy by any stretch. It’s high lords curtailing the monarchy’s power – not for the greater good but to their own benefit.

      Think of Magna Carta or the Declaration of Arbroath. Both have retroactively been interpreted as asserting some kind of sovereignty of “parliament” (Magna Carta) or people (Declaration of Arbroath, the “people” meant at the time being nobles) but at the time both were about the power of the lords against the power of the king. Thin end of a wedge that ultimately led to more democratic forms of government but that wasn’t the goal at the time.

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    27. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I see what you’re saying, and it makes some sense if Sansa chooses to marry to benefit her house. However, she doesn’t strike me as too keen to marry, even for her house’s benefit, after her horrific experiences. Maybe later?

      As to “overnight switch to democracy”, read Tensor the Mage’s and my posts above.

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    28. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      don’t think romance and marriages will necessarily play a large part in the final season. Nor do I particularly want them to. But as long as it makes sense politically and dramatically, then I think it’s appropriate since they have been recurring factors throughout the show.

      I really think and hope that Tyrion and Sansa meet again, and by the end agree to stayed married as good friends, if not lovers. He’d never hurt her, and could be a good partner in the managing of Winterfell, heck maybe she can be Lady of the North and he is her consort. I think he’d find better luck advising Sansa than being the hand for his last Lady…

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    29. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I agree with your reasoning. There must be a Stark in Winterfell, and with Bran crippled (and probably dead at the end), it must be a sister. Since Sansa is already established as Lady of Winterfell and book and show Arya and Gendry have a good, trusting friendship with nuanced romantic possibilities, that seems appropriate to convey, especially in an abbreviated season.

      talvikorppi,

      This has me tinfoiling that Gendry’s mother wasn’t just some tavern wench… There’s a show-only theory that Gendry is actually Robert’s and Cersei’s son and not a bastard at all but the rightful heir to the Baratheon dynasty!

      Maybe she didn’t know. But who could’ve taken away the King’s son? Varys? To undermine the Baratheon dynasty? (In this scenario, Varys didn’t care about Joff, Myrcella and Tommen because he always knew they were incest bastards, ready to be exposed at an opportune moment.)

      Maybe Cersei did know and actually instigated this? She didn’t love the baby because it was Robert’s and she only wanted Jaime’s kids (or rather her own, since she views Jaime as an extention of herself). She stopped short of actually killing the baby, she wasn’t quite that cray-cray back then. But with Joff et al. being exposed and Gendry discovered (or at least suspected) to be Robert’s bastard, he became dangerous, so had to be killed. The show hints that Joff wanted all Bobby B’s bastards dead but in the books it’s likely Cersei’s doing.

      I’m not sure I believe this, and I’m left wondering what it’d mean for the overall story. Is there a good enough reason storywise for this to be the case?

      Confusing, isn’t it? I don’t know what to believe, other than it remains a possibility. Edric Storm in the books is Robert’s acknowledged bastard. Since D&D apparently conflated him with Gendry, they’ll probably have him do whatever GRRM planned for Edric, which is probably become Lord of Storm’s End and maybe marry Arya. On rewatch, I noticed that in Season 2 Tyrion was shocked at Cersei’s visceral reaction when she realized that Joffrey had all of Robert’s bastards killed. He thought she knew. Watch her body language nd listen carefully to what she says–it’s a dramatic response considering she hated Robert and his offspring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtPtJCFbc5U

      Besides Gendry/Edric becoming legitimized to be lord of the Stormlands, he’s also in the order of succession for the throne after Jon, Dany, and Boatbaby. I think and hope they’ll all live, which makes his position moot, but one never knows.

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    30. Enharmony1625,

      I concur. I felt the logical culmination of Sansa’s story line was to become Lady of Winterfell – and not Mrs. Somebody. She started off wanting to be someone else and be somewhere else, and have someone’s babies; and finally realized her place was among (if not at the head of) her own “pack.”

      Here’s what she told LF in S6e10 @ the WF heart tree:

      Sansa: “I came here every day when I was a girl. I prayed to be somewhere else. Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl.”

      I cannot envision Sansa turning back into that naive girl who’d get carried away with dreams of marrying a prince or lord and having his beautiful black-haired babies. If she started in with that nonsense now, Arya would laugh derisively in her face and exclaim…

      “Seven Hells!”

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    31. talvikorppi:
      Tensor the Mage, Pettifogging It Up Amongst the Old Birth Certificates Again

      I think Cersei and Robert refered to that “black-haired” kid in their show-only excellent scene where they talked about their marriage but I’m not sure and can’t go and rewatch now.

      It’s a real head-scratcher, and I gather all book people were up at arms and outraged by Cersei’s little story to Cat. I thought that little show-only scene was inserted to make the point that all Baratheon kids have black hair – unlike Joff, Myrcella and Tommen. So foreshadowing the reveal of their incest bastardry to the viewers?

      Anyway , I also find it strange that the birth and death of the fricking heir to the bloody throne seems to have been such an insignificant affair that Cat, the wife of the Warden of the North, one of the highest lords in the land, didn’t know about it. WTF?

      And as Ten Bears pointed out with his excerpt, Cersei recalls the baby’s dead body being taken away and also Robert’s grief over it. Was Cersei just lying? But how could she expect Cat to believe the story? And I think Cersei and Robert mentioned the dead baby later in S1.

      Then, in S5, Maggy the Frog prophecied three kids for Cersei. Joff, Myrcella, Tommen. Not four. :head scratch.

      The scene between Cersei and Robert where they discuss their black haired boy does indeed take place in episode 2 or 3 (can’t remember which) of season 1. So Cersei obvs didn’t make the kid up for Cat’s sake.

      However you’re right – this doesn’t reconcile the Maggy the Frog prophecy. But this could be because Cersei failed to be specific. She said: ‘will the king and I have children?’. To which Maggy replied: ‘16 for him, and 3 for you.’

      But maybe Cersei should have specifically said: ‘will I have any children WITH the king?’. A bit of a stretch, I know, but maybe Maggy was a stickler for details. Or maybe, I just really want Gendry to be a true Baratheon/Lannister child 🙏🏼

      As for Cat not knowing about the kid- maybe she was unaware or she just forgot about it. I imagine the kid was born and was quite feverish and not expected to live, so they never really bothered telling anyone o sending ravens outside Kingslanding. It might have been shameful or Cersei might have gotten the blame for bearing an unhealthy child.

      Also, Ned and Robert hadn’t seen each other in 9 years (as established by their convo in episode one of season 1). Robert only knew the name of one child (Robb) whom Catelyn was already pregnant with when Ned went to join Robert’s Rebellion. This may be because Ned and Robert actually discussed this one child. Rob appears to be named after Robert.

      However, Robert doesn’t know any of Ned’s other children despite them being best friends, like brothers even. Maybe it just was not that common to reveal news of every child being born.

      Of course, Robert was a king so others will know about his firstborn and heir, as you rightly pointed out. But if a child is born, maybe they would announce it with a tourney in his honour once the mother recovers. But before Cersei could recover or as soon as he was born, the boy fell sick and they withheld the news from the realm in case he died and they would’ve have to send out ravens to rescind invitations or announcements of Robert’s heir.

      Again, this is a stretch, but not improbable.

      The explanation given above for Varys taking the baby away makes perfect sense, and since Varys was tight enough with the small folk yet has considerable influence, he could place Gendry with poor people yet ensure he is well looked after.

      Keep him as a fallback in case Viserys (whom him and Illyrio were plotting to install in place of Robert) turns out to be a nutter like his Dad. And of course, proving all other heirs were illegitimate would be easy enough, what with there being no mention of hair dye this side of the Narrow Sea.

      Anyway, I would really like Gendry’s role in the final season to be bigger then just as a dragonglass/Valyrian steel smith. It would really make up for all those seasons of his absence.

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    32. Enharmony1625: Ha! I love it! 🙂

      No One can protect me. No One can protect anyone.” – Sansa (6×09)

      Little did she know.. 🙂

      ________________
      “The only one that needs protecting is the one that gets in her way.” – Brienne (7×07)

      Thank you. Now I have quotes for the front and back of an Arya Stark tee shirt. All I need now is to select two iconic images…
      Any suggestions?

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    33. “Anyway, I would really like Gendry’s role in the final season to be bigger then just as a dragonglass/Valyrian steel smith.”

      Given the importance of those materials to the very survival of humanity on Westeros, I’d say even that role is very large indeed!

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    34. Enharmony1625,

      Speaking of being immortalized on a Royal Mail stamp: Another cast member sent out invitations to a formal event that’s to take place later this month. He used his Royal Mail GoT stamp on the envelopes.

      Which could affect speculation whether he’ll cut his hair and shave his beard even if filming is finished by then.

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    35. If not Sansa and Gendry, then Sansa and who? She is Lady of Winterfell, and pretty soon, if peace breaks out, will be expected to produce an heir. Dickon Tarly is gone, Jorah is kinda smitten with someone else, Tyrion has already had a turn and The Hound ain’t the marrying kind, especially not to a delicate flower like Sansa.

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    36. Ten Bears,

      TB, your watch is ended. in case you didn’t see it, Rory was at the wrap party! Still bearded, which means he may still be filming. Let us hope.

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    37. Loosehead:
      If not Sansa and Gendry, then Sansa and who? She is Lady of Winterfell, and pretty soon, if peace breaks out, will be expected to produce an heir. Dickon Tarly is gone, Jorah is kinda smitten with someone else, Tyrion has already had a turn and The Hound ain’t the marrying kind, especially not to a delicate flower like Sansa.

      I wouldn’t say it’s never in the cards for Sansa to eventually marry someone, but I don’t think it’s part of her story in GoT. As long as she survives, it can be assumed that at some point in her life she will find someone and House Stark will live on. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be someone we know from the story — it could be someone entirely new. As the last surviving member of House Baratheon, Gendry will probably want to further his line as opposed to taking on a Stark name. Same with Tyrion as (probably) the last surviving Lannister.

      In any case, I used to think that it was important for the story to address the future of each house and how the name would survive (if at all), but I’ve gone back on that. The books might go into greater detail on this, but I don’t see the show dedicating a lot of time to it.

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    38. Enharmony1625: I used to think that it was important for the story to address the future of each house and how the name would survive (if at all), but I’ve gone back on that. The books might go into greater detail on this, but I don’t see the show dedicating a lot of time to it.

      In the books, the Lannister name is not really threatened, despite all the emphasis that Tywin put on keeping it feared. There are scads of Lannister cousins besides Lancel and the two boys killed by the Karstarks. So Tyrion would not experience that particular sort of pressure to the extent that the Stark siblings would.

      There are two surviving House Tyrell heirs in the books as well, even presuming that Margaery and Loras are toast. The Queen of Thorns had been arranging a match between the eldest, Willas, and Sansa when Tywin swooped in and ordered Tyrion to wed her. We haven’t met him – he doesn’t travel on account of a lame leg acquired in a tourney from the Red Viper – but Willas sounds like a decent sort, kind and scholarly, and not a bad potential match for Sansa after all.

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    39. TheNightQueen,

      I think it is plausible that Cersei would have switched her child with a low-born, knowing that she did not want to foster a child of Robert’s but also couldn’t bring herself to poison her own son, which ultimately she would do to the look-alike low-born.

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    40. Firannion,

      Good point. Although Jamie addresses the family legacy with Tywin in the show during Tyrion’s trial when he offers to remove his white cloak and return to Casterly Rock. He sort of “mocks” the idea of some extended cousin or family member keeping the Lannister name going. I always got the impression that Tywin was more concerned that the “right” Lannister keeps the family line going due to the embarrassment his own father brought upon the name.

      I am curious to see whether the show does address this in season 8, particularly for the Starks. As I said, it might be enough that there are surviving members that we can assume at some point settle down and the name will live on without going into detail or dedicating sub-plots to it.

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    41. Enharmony1625: I am curious to see whether the show does address this in season 8, particularly for the Starks. As I said, it might be enough that there are surviving members that we can assume at some point settle down and the name will live on without going into detail or dedicating sub-plots to it.

      Well, we do have a precedent already set with the Karstarks having split off from House Stark in some earlier century, perhaps changing the name because the branch of the family was continuing through the female line (I should probably look this up in AWoIaF). Maybe they’ll invent Lannistarks, which would fit well with the Wars of the Roses theme. The question is, who will be Westeros’ Henry VII?

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    42. Firannion: Well, we do have a precedent already set with the Karstarks having split off from House Stark in some earlier century, perhaps changing the name because the branch of the family was continuing through the female line (I should probably look this up in AWoIaF). Maybe they’ll invent Lannistarks, which would fit well with the Wars of the Roses theme. The question is, who will be Westeros’ Henry VII?

      Yeah, that’s one way it could go, but it would be very sad to see the Stark name go out even if it was joined with another as it is one of the oldest houses in ASoIaF. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe there is precedent as well for a family name to live on through a female heir, particularly if the house has no male heirs. I remember hearing about this in one of Westeros History’s YouTube videos where they were discussing the future of houses among other things. So that leaves it open to the possibility of Sansa (or Arya) keeping her name if she perhaps marries a younger male of a house, or the male of a lesser house even.

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    43. Colin Armfield,

      I asked him about that at the Con of Thrones. He said he was going to make something New. He would not say if it was a new hammer or sword. He did say, they left it up there in the North. I said to him, now a Wright or white walker has it now and it would be terrible if it was used to kill one of the heroes. I got the impression that he agreed with me. I asked him The Hammer should have a name. He wrote on my autograph photo “Lets name that Hammer” I thought of “Ascendance” as the name for that hammer.

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    44. So there’s the assumption that Jaime is going to die in Season 8. And Tyrion may very well be the last remaining Lannister. But what if Jaime doesn’t die, and the guy who is so worried abut succession is the one who dies? It could happen. Talk about unexpected!

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    45. Loosehead,

      I am not saying anything about marriage, but in the books, the Hound kisses Sansa before he disappears from Kings Landing and while at first she does not remember it, the kiss eventually haunts her – in a good way. She keeps thinking about it. So in the books, Sansa and the Hound are romantically linked, although her character has a completely different storyline. But if you think about Sansa’s little girl dreams about being saved by a knight, it fits. The only thing is the Hound does not have the physical appearance she desired. However, both characters that were supposed to be physically attractive (Joffrey and Ramsay) were evil incarnate. The two who were considered grotesque (Tyrion and the Hound) were kind to her. Even handsome Littlefinger was evil. Her character arc goes from naïve to wise, which could or should include the realization that character counts way more than looks and class. Her story resolution will be interesting.

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    46. Beth:
      Loosehead,

      I am not saying anything about marriage, but in the books, the Hound kisses Sansa before he disappears from Kings Landing and while at first she does not remember it, the kiss eventually haunts her – in a good way. She keeps thinking about it. So in the books, Sansa and the Hound are romantically linked, although her character has a completely different storyline. But if you think about Sansa’s little girl dreams about being saved by a knight, it fits. The only thing is the Hound does not have the physical appearance she desired. However, both characters that were supposed to be physically attractive (Joffrey and Ramsay) were evil incarnate. The two who were considered grotesque (Tyrion and the Hound) were kind to her. Even handsome Littlefinger was evil. Her character arc goes from naïve to wise, which could or should include the realization that character counts way more than looks and class.Her story resolution will be interesting.

      Except that he doesn’t. It’s commonly referred to as the ‘unkiss’, and is part of Sansa’s romanticizing of what actually happened when she looks back on it, having now been in a pretty crappy situation which leads her to remember things in a much better light than they were. Which to me is could be a positive thing, as perhaps her view of ‘knights in shining armor’ is changed, however I believe it has also been said that this may make her an unreliable POV.

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    47. Pigeon,

      So bottom line: Now that Sansa’s not a girl anymore but is the twice-married Lady of Winterfell… Does she have a thing for the Big Doggie?

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    48. Ten Bears,

      In the books they’re far closer in age–disturbingly far apart by present-day standards, but within a totally acceptable window for the mores of medieval times (Sandor is probably in his late 20s or early 30s, whereas Rory McCann is now 49). Tbh, if Sansa is wedded (again!) by the end, I would have no problem with either Sandor or Tyrion. As I’ve noted more than once before–and a commenter on this thread noted earlier–it would be fitting if the girl who came to KL dreaming only of superficialities finally found a satisfying marriage with one of the two men widely thought of as “monsters” in that city… and more important, the only two men other than her own family who ever protected her while she was there.

      Apologies for the awkward sentence.

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    49. Ten Bears:
      Pigeon,

      So bottom line: Now that Sansa’s not a girl anymore but is the twice-married Lady of Winterfell… Does she have a thing for the Big Doggie?

      Well, she’s neither in the books as of yet! And will certainly not be married to Ramsay, fortunately. A thing for Sandor? I think she has an attraction in the books. Well, I’m not sure if it’s really for him as himself, as it is her re-imagining her idea of a gallant knight. She romanticizes what happened during Blackwater, and it becomes a different version of what happened. I think she is struggling to hold on to some semblance of a hero while perhaps coming to understand that things are not so clear cut. Which I see as growth, and a good thing. Future chapters still make me want to smack her (actually, George) though, what with her tummy flutters at her new prospective hubby, Lord Douchebag, and whatnot. Augh.

      I was glad they changed the Blackwater scene in the show. In the book, Sandor is of course drunk and offers to take her away, but when she refuses he threatens to kill her with his knife and forces her to ‘sing a song’ for him (ABBA, I’m guessing) at which point he starts crying and runs off. Yup. They also had LF tell her on the show how he got the burns, whereas in the books Sandor tells her himself. They have that bit to Arya, in one of our mutual favourite scenes, I believe. 🙂

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    50. Pigeon,

      “…I was glad they changed the Blackwater scene in the show. In the book, Sandor is of course drunk and offers to take her away, but when she refuses he threatens to kill her with his knife and forces her to ‘sing a song’ for him (ABBA, I’m guessing) at which point he starts crying and runs off. Yup.”
      _____________
      “Blackwaterloo”? (“Knowing my fate is to be with you…”)

      🐶🕊

      I’ll see myself out.

        Quote  Reply

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