After a mysterious first day of filming in Dubrovnik and a slightly confusing second one, this third day brings us the Queen of King’s Landing: Lena Headey has been spotted on location, wearing a new queenly outfit — and she’s not alone. Apparently, in season eight Cersei will be having a parley in King’s Landing with an unexpected main character!
There are spoilers for the last season below the cut, so venture forth at your own risk!
Yesterday Kit Harington filmed a scene in which Jon Snow was escorted through the city walls by Northmen-looking soldiers. Today Jon appeared again, this time at Bokar Fortress, but he wasn’t alone! As seen in Dubrovnik Net and The Dubrovnik Times, Cersei was there too, and today she was the one with an escort — her new black-and silver Kingsguard, including Gregor “The Mountain” Clegane, played by Hafþór Björnsson:
The circumstances of this meeting are a mystery, as is its placement in the season. At first glance, the fact that both David Benioff and D.B. Weiss are on scene and giving directions would indicate this scene belongs to the series finale, which they are directing. However, it appears the showrunners were merely providing guidance as producers and writers, since the actual director, David Nutter, was also seen on set:
Nutter is directing episodes one, two, and four. If I had to guess by the little context we have, I’d say this probably takes place in episode four. The rest, however, remains a mystery. Most of all, we must ask: what are Jon and Cersei discussing exactly? And in which circumstances does Jon find himself in the (still) Cersei-held capital?
UPDATE: via Slobodna Dalmacija, we get a much better look at Cersei’s new costume, which seems more battle-ready than previous versions (only symbolically, of course) and sees a return to the Lannister gold accents absent from her costumes the last few years. We can also spot a few gold cloaks, who are often seen guarding the city walls:
Filming in Dubrovnik is supposed to finish either later today or tomorrow, so we probably won’t get many more juicy spoilers from Croatia. Still, what we’ve got is plenty to speculate, isn’t it? Please, share your best theories in the comments below!
Now, this is getting interesting.
Why are these two meeting and where is the rest of them?
Hodor!
Now everything makes sense to me. Lol
The idea that we will have 3 sides at KL’s battle (Cersei, Dany/Jon and the NK) in KL always seemd good in theory but bad in practice. It would feel like a mess, like Battle of the five armies.
But if Cersei and Jon and Dany are fighting on the same side, everything works. Dany and Jon don’t want to let NK take 1 million people and Cersei knows she can’t fight alone. But she will still plan to defeat them after they destroy the WW. So I think that’s what will happen. She will betrey them either after or during the battle and then she will finnaly die.
Jon meeting with Cersei now makes sense of “no Longclaw.”
Which also suggests that Jon is not trusted.
mau,
There were three sides in the Battle of Minas Tirith, I seem to recall. That battle was as far from a mess as you can possibly get.
Things to note:
– Cersei doesn’t appear to be pregnant – (see the first picture)
– It doesn’t noticeably appear to be winter – Cersei’s not wearing winter clothes. No snow in the air or on any of the characters. Just like there was no snow in the scene Kit was shooting yesterday
– Nobody with Jon. No Davos, Tyrion, Dany or anybody.
– Jon is wearing his fur cloak. Which would be a bit odd if he was a prisoner.
clouddragon,
At the end. There were 3 sides in BOTB. In the end. But not fighting the whole time.
Why would they stand directly infront of a window for everyone to see? Hm, a bit suspicious.
I think this may be a deliberate mislead. Look at the cast and crew deliberately looking through that window – they know precisely where the camera is and are smiling.
Might just be that both Cersei and Jon have scenes in KL and because they only have a set amount of time to film in Dubrovnik that they’re filming simultaneously. Doesn’t necessarily mean they’re in scenes together.
I could be wrong of course. It’s just it seems a little bit careless of them to position themselves right there in front of the camera when they’re trying so hard to keep things under wraps for season 8.
Krissa,
I don’t think they would fly three main cast members out just to pose a teaser!
Very intriguing! I really like these kinds of spoilers better than having the entire season with details spoiled. This is more fun, now everyone’s theories have been tossed in the air as so many didn’t expect to see Cersei still kicking. Wouldn’t it be something if she actually won the ‘game’! I know she probably won’t but it sure is fun to speculate and that would sure make for a good ‘twist’ at the end!
Colin Armfield,
No, but could be they are filming seperate scenes and episodes. If Kit is already in town or filming for another scene it wouldn’t take much to throw him into these pictures and take the opportunity to throw people off. I just find it suspicious that they have done so much to hide what they are filming and then here they choose to stand directly in front of the cameras.
Is Jon’s cloak new or is it the same one he had last season?
It looks a bit scruffy.
I feel you, but sometimes there are certain shots that they need to get outside where there just isn’t enough cover from people taking photos and they have to do the best they can. If you can’t hide it, I guess you may as well flaunt it. The closed sets are much easier to hide what’s going on.
For a second there, I thought the shape and attire of the (kings?)guard on the left side was Brienne. It looked different from the figure on the right.
Ahh! The Wonderful World of Tinfoil!
Mr Derp,
They did put up a cover over the window though, but not before posing these pictures.
P.S. Where the f**k is Ghost?
Four if you think about it:
Gondor – defending a siege.
Mordor – besieging gondor.
Rohan – trying to break the siege.
Army of the dead (the “good” version) – showing up at the last minute and decimating the Mordor army.
It could be much the same with a battle here.
Lannisters – defending a siege from NK.
Army of the Dead (the “bad” version) – besieging Kings Landing.
John & Danny alliance – ready to attack the AoD from behind. (Jon lands on a dragon to negotiate).
That’s 3 and maybe the Golden Company shows up in there somewhere.
Or I guess it could be that the Jon/Danny alliance could be fleeing the NK and is seeking entrance to KL and offering to help defend it with their dragonglass and Valyrian Steel weapons in return for entrance.
But who knows how things are gonna play out.
Why is The Mountain’s face partially black? I don’t entirely recall what he looked like with the mask off last time, but I don’t think it looked the same. I could be wrong.
Ten Bears,
The Dragon would not let him ride piggyback!
Mr Derp,
It’s the same makeup as always.
They also looked through the window last year. It wasn’t a fake then. No reason to think it is now.
As for the window not being covered up at first, they were filming with the window (and the vistas seen through it) in the background.
Krissa,
They shoot scenes there almost every season though, so there’s no reason to think this one is a fake.
Mr Derp,
That’s normal. It’s the makeup for his character to look dead, or at least like a reanimated corpse. In the close-ups of Gregor in previous episodes, he does have a more purple-ish complexion with bloodshot eyes.
Luka Nieto,
Dark Sister,
Thanks. Couldn’t remember.
these photos today CONFIRMS jon is in KL indeed, no other location.
this location was always for KL, even in season 7, leena e Nikolaj show up in this same window and the scene was in season 7, 1 episode.
so jon is in KL, nutter is there, i hope is episode 4, makes perfect sense for it.
just the weather without fake snow is what bothers me more and make me think this could be final episode, and i hope its not.
Hey, maybe these are the finał scenes and Cercei is The Queen of the 7 Kingdoms and Jon Back at Castle Blac as a ruler? Or maybe they’re gettin maried as the last alive of the two Great houses? Or There’s another crazy/stupie/freakin weird trip by Jon to convince Cercei to the common cause? Or Jon is there as a proszonej kidnapped by the Golden Company? Or…showrunners are just messing up with us by just showing us actors in different places to make more rumours and speculations, fake spoilers, and by this to surprise us with crazy amazing stuff in the last showdown? 😊🤣
Hmm… lets see…
Perhaps King’s Landing has been overtaken, become a hive of wights and Cersei is holdup/trapped in the Red Keep. Jon, as a favor to Tyrion, flies in to attempt to talk her into leaving with him to safety. Jon has to do it because other than Daenerys he’s the only one that can ride a dragon, and Cersei definitely wouldn’t accept aid from Daenerys. 🙂
Clob,
Your scenario is more plausible than most that have been floated the last 24 hours.
(Though I do like The Sternik’s Jon-marries-Cersei twist. Because Lena!!!!)
it has to be episode 4, david and dan saying the right a scene for kit and lena and with nutter als director he directs episode 1,2,4 episode 1 is wirtten by Dave Hill and episode 2 is wirtten by Bryan Cogman,Miguel Sapochnik is director of episode 3 and 5 so it has to be episode 4
But who’s the random guy with Jon dressed in black? Where does he fit in?
Hype!!! I also think this should be episode 4 – it fits with what we’ve seen so far with ‘spoilers’. I can’t wait! 😀
OK then so safe to say Jon is solely in KL. this zig-zagging up and down Westeros during an apocalypse is bumming me out, but I’m sure it’ll all translate well enough on screen.
I LOVE the fact that we’re seeing this scene being filmed in such an organic way, in the same way we did with all the Dragonstone beach scenes.
I’m assuming those others are crew and not general public who are gawping at them? Otherwise I wanna see pics from the other side of that wall on social media, like an hour ago! 😝🕒
Mr Derp,
It’s a good question.
We can clearly see that Cersei still has Lannister soldiers and her Queensguard available, so why wouldn’t they be escorting Jon to her? Or are they members of her mercenary army?
If they’re Jon’s men, why wouldn’t he have a more familiar face or two with him for such a significant encounter?
Clob,
What reason would any of them have to come to Cersei’s aid though?
Are we allowed to talk about the other character rumoured to be there and not in photo
My theory is that the Nights King wins in the North and Jon and Bran go South to convince Cersei that they all make their last stand at Kings Landing. My only doubt is where is Jamie and why doesn’t he do this? My conclusion is that he must be dead or being used as leverage if Jon is not granted safe passage.
My initial thought would be because they’re all dead or a large portion of Jon’s forces are still at Winterfell. This has me stumped so far. At least we have plenty of time to connect the dots. Once we can get a timeline together these scenes should start making more sense.
I completely agree.
While crazy speculations based on persuasive hints are one of the most compelling components of the GoT fandom for me, I avoided last season’s leaked synopsis, and the two leaked episodes, like the plague. There’s no fun in that!
I agree but we have not yet seen the rumoured third main character in any of the photos.
Jon Snowed,
Could be a separate scene filmed inside maybe. Though, to be fair, I don’t think it’s been confirmed that Bran is there yet. We just had that one twitter post or whatever showing Isaac and Kit’s autographs on the same paper. Could’ve gotten them at different times.
This is very strange. Besides the quick travel again (which I really wish they’d tone down on) Jon appears to be alone with no weapon in King’s Landing. But also doesn’t appear to be in any form of imminent danger as we saw from yesterday’s pictures, he is allowed to roam freely. I’d say Cersei is not very good at keeping prisoners if Jon is supposed to be one. So that seems to eliminate that.
I’m having great difficulty thinking of any coherent scenario where this would make sense, short of Jon and Cersei forming some type of alliance or something, which seems almost impossible to believe given that at this point in when this scene likely takes place, Jon should know Cersei has betrayed him.
*shrug* They do lots of nutty stuff in this story. 😛
While I’m not that into Tyrion & Cersei having made some kind of deal, one could have been Tyrion promising to ‘save’ her and the unborn from death if she is defeated. That would be to save her and let her leave the country with her baby, as she mentioned about her thoughts.
Clob,
It would also fit in with the “Jon trying to save everyone” characteristic. Though, once he finds out that Cersei betrayed him, I would think that any deal would be off.
I would tend to agree that this meeting could have something to do with Tyrion, though he doesn’t appear to be there either.
I know someone in the crew and they told me that Jon had to go back because he left his keys at the dragon pit. There’s a scene where Cercei is lifting her couch cushions saying “See? Nothing.”
They are far too jovial standing in front of a large open window in the eyes of the public, hehehe…..I’d really love for them to do some funny little prank, like have one of them pretending to strangle the other one or some random character pass by.
I’m waiting for the theory that Jon was killed and this is actually Arya going in on a probable suicide mission to assassinate Cersei. 😉
Clob,
Arya has been a “main character” all through, with much being made of her training with the faceless men.
Her storyline can not just end with the Freys and Littlefinger.
She must play some large part in the end game.
Colin Armfield,
So… like… you’re saying you think that’s a possible scenario then? 🙂
sophie turner is there
Clob,
How about, it’s actually Cersei who’s already dead. Arya’s wearing her face.
Jon comes to bend the knee and beg for help in fighting the Army of the Dead, having been defeated in The North.
Suddenly Cersei attacks and kills all her guards, including The Mountain.
Arya removes her Cersei mask, places a crown on Jon’s head and declares him King.
Rhaegal appears, they climb aboard and they fly off like Aegon and Visenya to fight the Night King.
Sound D&D enough for ya?
I love all of this speculation. No one is clear about anything and seeing this healthy dose of confusion and skepticism is something this fanbase hasn’t been able to have in awhile.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Ha! I love it! That would certainly be a surprise twist. 🙂
Hey now… Assuming you saw the instagram I did, we can’t say that yet since there’s no proof at all.
Snogane Bowl?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
(◍´͈ꈊ`͈◍)
I have a bad feeling that Jon will go in KL and try to negotiated with Cercei for help and she will capture him ..Bran maybe also there for to reveal Cerceis and Tyrions betrayal in S7e7 and will be captured along with Jon..Then Cercei will try to force Danny[Emilia Clarke uploaded an instagram photo in an airport in Rome ,..maybe she is traveling also in Dubrovnik too..Rome-Dubrovnik is only 1 hour flight ] and the others to come in KL to saving him trapping them too..Also there will be the NK[i saw his fingers posing in a SUV jeep ]..for the final scene of the final battle[?]..With Jon without Longclaw and armor and Cerceis Queensguards around ..im worried that there will be a shocking unexpected twist
i agree completely
thats crazy
give me a link
I wonder where the other cast members are? Especially Dany and the Starks.
They will be there soon
Mark my words boy … mark them well …
Team Daegon has taken Kings Landing (or about).
Cersei is holding in the Red Keep.
Aegon is giving her the last chance to give up and join.
I now strongly believe that Cersei attacks Winterfell while Jon is in KL. Thus the betrayal
I have to say, looking at that first picture of Cersei at Bokar, I’m already loving Michele Clapton’s season eight work.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Hey, I like it! But I want Arya to have a crown too. Just because. 👸🏻
(I’ve sort of given up my tinfoil wishful thinking scenario – bolstered by Aisling Franciosi’s more than passing resemblance to Maisie Williams – that Arya would show up in KL looking like Lyanna Stark 2.0 (= YMBQ), freak out Cersei, and maybe abscond with her rug rat.)
https://instagram.com/p/Be8KQiGhFcE/
She’s confirming that it was Sansa not Cersei the person she saw.
Edith,
All the comments say it’s Cersei though.
*zooms in browser at 400%*
I have no idea what’s going on anymore lol
Cersei is the promised prince!
Edith,
She also states that the person who ‘may’ be Sansa was not performing but just amongst them at an interview session. I highly doubt Sansa would be in KL unless she’s deceased. Let’s not forget Cersei wanted her head on a spike and Sansa is scared to death of her. Likely some red head on the team and these people are quite far away trying to ID pixels.
its not Sansa…The woman on the balcony has cherry/pink hair color ..Sansas hairs are auburn
Jon Snowed,
Cersei stopped listening to Jaime (not that she ever really did) so why would he waste time trying to convince her of anything? Anyone else would have a better chance than Jaime or Tyrion.
I really wish that Cersei would stop wearing Tommen’s scalp.
Me also! I rarely speculate on what’s going to happen and enjoy reading what other posters have to say 🙂
Photos taken during filming I have no problem with. I would hardly call them ‘Spoilers’ as we’re none the wiser as to what is going on? Even during S7 when many photos and even videos were taken during those beach scenes filmed in Spain, we never knew they were split between Dragonstone (Dany’s arrival and later Theon) and Kings Landing when the two kings guards encountered Davos, Gendry and Tyrion on the beach? The same beach, but different places in Westeros.
What really grinds is when scripts or episodes are leaked and I sincerely hope that will not happen for S8.
I actually saw some stuff before that specific twitter post which said Isaac was there but hadn’t been caught on camera. Of course it doesn’t mean it’s true but it was on Reddit and Twitter from what appeared to me different sources.
Krissa,
I agree, what a coincidence
Whilst I agree she will ignore Jamie he’s still the only person she really cares about other than herself. On the flipside she did make a point of mentioning that Ned’s bastard would be honourable so she may trust him more than the Mad Kings Daughter or the little brother who she has wanted dead for years.
It still makes no sense that Jon, the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms goes South again and seemingly alone to beg for help. If Cersei knows he’s the rightful king she would kill him immediately.
Pigeon,
I like Cersei’s androgynous haircut. Makes her gender-fluid hookup with Daenerys more plausible. 👨🚀🤖 Maybe Cersei will get her Targaryen Prince(ss) after all. ” In your face, Maggie!”
Jon Snowed,
A lot of things don’t make sense, but that didn’t stop them from happening, as we saw last season.
Why is everyone so baffled by the fact Jon isn’t wearing longclaw? We already saw him have his sword taken away last season when he met with Dany. So he’s more than likely left it behind on his ship (or with his escort).
Apollo,
Ghost is guarding Longclaw. Off camera. As usual.
Artemisia,
She’s deleted her photo now.
Apollo,
People were only baffled when he was alone, now he is seen with Cersei it all makes sense being disarmed.
Black Raven,
Totally agree! Keeping up with esoteric photos from filming is always fun. As long as nothing specific from the scripts leaks then I’m content with anything else we get. It makes the journey that much more fun since everyone is in such a frenzy to know more.
Jon Snowed,
Ah! Dangerous to have Aegon 2.0 in the proximity of Cersei. He entered last week as a long shot on my handicapping sheet of odds for Valonqar candidates, but now he’s moving up…
It appears to have been taken down…
Ten Bears,
I don’t know if you are serious Ten Bears but I have thought that myself but when I tried to think it through the fact that Maggy says beautiful and not a less ‘feminine’ word put me off. In the book when Danearys dreams of her lover GRRM uses the word comely (if I am wrong someone will tell me) to me that word would be less feminine in this situation. But I do think it’s an interesting suggestion.🤔
Cercei ”trusted”Ned in S1 because he was honorable too and then manipulated Geoffrey to cut off his head..She will try to do the same with Jon..especially now who she is crazy and doesnt loves even and her own brother/Lover
Krissa,
I agree…I think they are filming fake scenes maybe the real stuff is interior or else where…be careful of the bait and switch. They will do anything to keep us from knowing the truth.
kathy,
Speak for yourself. You have these pictures and I’ll have the scripts.
LadyGoodman,
Yeah she erased because she receive a lot of cruel comments from some shippers and called a liar and other stuff….
She did say that she was 85% sure it was Sansa so I don’t know
Krissa,
Agree! Looks staged.
Cersei didn’t manipulate Joffrey, it was all him who lopped off Ned’s head.
I doubt it’s staged. They filmed in the exact same location last year and it turned out to be in the show. The crew also noticed the photos being taken last year and had fun with it, the same way they are doing now. There’s no reason to assume this is fake unless some other info comes out.
if she didnt manipulated him..then why she said to him ”everyone who isnt us is our enemy”in S1….meaning the Starks also..remember?
Wait ..Which one of my outlandish tinfoil scenarios are you referring to? The Cersei & Daeny hookup was a goof/takeoff on Lena’s movie “Imagine Me and You” with Piper Perabo looking like Emilia in a few scenes.
Arya as Lyanna 2.0 is my wishful thinking “Disneyfied” twist, that I was pretty sure would never happen — until Hot Pie, out of the blue, told Arya: “You’re pretty!”
But I am biased. I want 55 minutes of every episode to be devoted to Sandor and Arya. Two-minute cameos for everyone else.
👸🏻🐓🐓
LadyGoodman,
The revealer of this information is one of the more ardent Jonsa fans on the Internet. With the considerable coverage and paparazzi presence, there’s only one witness? She thinks Sophie is there and not working? And then the IG goes away? Sounds suspicious. I did see the pic and IMO the face was insufficiently disclosed for it to be identifiable. Some people think Sophie is in London anyway, but someone said ST is not at the premiere of a new film at some festival, which is odd. Add to the confusion the fact that HBO and the showrunners can deal in misdirection. I am flummoxed.
Mr Derp,
Yeah.
While images like these do show us characters that are present in what will probably be a scene, we also have to be aware that what we see happening may not be in the script. People goofing around between takes or messing up during the shot and then doing funny ad libbing can be caught in pictures. One of the pictures shows David with a silly grin and another lady with a big smile like someone is doing something funny. Funny shouldn’t be a part of what this scene will be.
Ten Bears,
You tinfoil….never😁
Stark Raven’ Rad,
It seems like with one notable exception, the actors cannot go out in public without being spotted by rabid fans.
Rory McCann has been able to avoid the cameras fairly well all these years. Much like the Hound, it appears he keeps to himself. (If there’s one GoT actor who could’ve cashed in big time because of his popularity, it’s Rory. Yet, he’s kept a low profile.)
She meant it. However, it was clear that she didn’t want Ned Stark to be executed. She wanted him to be sent to the Nights Watch if I remember correctly. It was also clear during the beheading scene that Cersei was attempting to talk Joffrey out of it, but he wouldn’t listen.
Artemisia,
Jon Snowed,
I think Littlefinger manipulated Joffrey into doing it. He had means, motive and opportunity. LF wanted Ned dead because it hurt House Stark, made Catelyn available, and magnified Chaos. And as a Small Council member he had access to Joffrey. Countless times we’ve seen LF manipulate people into doing what LF wanted by appealing to what they wanted. He could have insinuated to Joff that he could kill a deadly enemy, show the women who’s boss, give the crowd what they want, and assert himself as a ruler by…killing Ned Stark. The best way was to play along with the Night Watch deal, let Ned confess treason, and quickly have him killed. Re-watch the scene. After Joff says, “Ser Ilyn, bring me his head”, Cersei, Pycelle, and Varys all run over to plead with Joffrey. Meanwhile, Baelish stands at the left, stock still and smirking. Apparently he was not surprised.
Clob,
Yea, I wouldn’t assume that every little thing they do there would be for the show, but I also don’t think they would send a crew to that location just to screw with fans either. I don’t think fans are as important to the production of the show as some seem to think.
Clob,
Yeah, but let’s remember the cameras aren’t always rolling. So it’s entirely feasible (in fact a certainty), that the cast and crew will have some lighter moments and may even crack a smile. In fact they’ve said they often joke around in many interviews. Let’s allow them to be happy now and again 😝
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Why do you think she’s a “Jonsa” shipper?
I just skimmed through her Instagram and there’s nothing else GoT related, let alone to do with “Jonsa”.
Seemed more like a person innocently posting something to the internet and inadvertently landing themselves in the middle of a stupid “ship war”.
I did see that there were “Jonerys”-obsessed Freefolk redditors, and people running nonsense Instagram pages called “kit emilia daily” and such like, all over the post insisting she was wrong.
I don’t blame her for deleting it with that mob dogpiling her.
That’s correct Mr Derp I watched S1 again only last month and Cersei is shocked by what happens, it certainly wasn’t her intention.
I like Cersei’s new dress ! Very battle chic…
As for what is happening in these photographs, I cannot even speculate because, quite frankly, I have no bloody idea whatsoever 😛
In a strange way, Joffrey is one of the luckiest characters of Game of Thrones : a surprisingly high proportion of his most appalling misdeeds tend to be remembered by many as other people’s crimes…
Bran’s assassination attempt is often blamed on either Littlefinger, Cersei or even Jaime when, in the books at the very least, the sole real suspect is Joffrey. The murder of all of Robert Baratheon’s illegitimate children is frequently attributed to Cersei even though the show unambiguously states it was Joffrey’s call. The attempted murder of Tyrion during the Battle of the Blackwater was all Joffrey, through and through, yet his mother is regularly accused of it. So far, there has been no real indication that Ned’s execution was anyone’s idea but Joffrey’s but it is frequently speculated that either Cersei or Littlefinger had something to do with it.
I suppose it is understandable to a large degree; it is quite hard to fathom that a glorified child with, for all intents and purposes, very little talent or intelligence could be both so vicious and so “efficient” . However, we cannot forget that the untalented and unintelligent child had a crown on the top of his head and a massive psychosis on the inside of it. That is a deadly combination in and of itself ! Add to that the ongoing issue of his pathetic, almost heartbreaking, desire to be viewed as Bobby’s heir in every way possible… In this context, what Ned did (trying to have him declared a bastard and opening the gates for Stannis to denounce Joffrey’s Baratheon identity in as public a manner as feasible) was the ultimate crime in Joff’s eyes. The one thing he never could or would forget. Unbeknownst to Cersei, the moment Joffrey understood Ned’s purpose, the Stark patriarch was as good as dead.
From.all these pics I get few little bits
1- this is episode 4
2- episode 3 winterfell burns , so Jon goes to kl for asking help from cersei..
3- cersei will discuss with Jon but get him captured instead..
4- cersei demands dany to surrender as she is already pregnant, but dany sends Jaime to parley with cersei in episode 5..
5- Jaime fails to convince cersei in episode 5 and no attacks…cersei wanymts to but whole city , so Jaime kills her , and releases Jon….jon vs nk
My theory:
Cersei attacks Winterfell with the Golden Company. During that battle, the White Walkers show up, and the Golden Company is forced to align with Jon and Dany. The Night’s King burns Winterfell and the living are forced to flee to King’s Landing where they team up for a final stand.
It makes me afraid for another scenario. Originally Jon refused to side with Cersei because he had already pledged allegiance to Dany. Is it possible Dany is already dead? Sorry, I know there were supposed to be other circumstances that would assure she’d be around at least 9 months, but we don’t know that for sure, at this point a pregnancy is wishful thinking. Either that, or she’s so fully pregnant she can’t fly. Otherwise, it’s hard to imagine why Jon would be there. Wouldn’t Cersei demand allegiance from him, even if the threat of WW is imminent? She’s that arrogant.
Good stuff, I just can’t believe we have to wait another year to see it out.
ACME,
I reckon the books will reveal that LF was behind Brans assasination attempt, as well as Ned’s beheading. Chaos is a ladder, and all that..
Looks calculated.
Plus, and I believe most important, that scurrying rat, Pycelle, was always at his ear. There is a scene in an early episode, when either Cersei or Jaime went to his chambers and interrupted a conversation between the two. There was no Pycelle dialog, but the audience sees without a doubt that Pycelle is instigating some sort of nastiness. Pycelle is also the one who spoke loudly against Sansa, “the daughter of a traitor,” etc.
The show didn’t get too much into Pycelle’s motivations, not like they did with Varys and Baelish. But he must have had some ambitions as well. He loved the thought that he had been advisor to many Kings. So, I’d say that a lot of Joff’s evil deeds can be attributed to Pycelle’s input. Bad combination, those two. Yet, Joff didn’t have to agree with him. As Olenna put so well regarding Joff, “he really was a cunt.”
YUUUS. Kit’s gorgeous hair locks have been unleashed onto the world again. OwO As much as I liked the man-bun, I missed those furious locks. Although, it makes me wonder why the hair change. Why the unkempt look? Could… could Jon Snow be riding his own dragon now??? o_o It would explain why no one but him is there or how he arrived at Kings Landing so fast.
Thronetender,
“It makes me afraid for another scenario…”
______________
Call me Mr. Cynicism: I’m afraid for a different scenario: Cersei knows the Starks do desperate (and stupid) things to try to save family members held hostage. It happened with Ned, Robb, and Cat.
What if – God forbid – Cersei manages to abduct Sansa? Or Arya? And Jon has to go to KL to try to negotiate her/their release?
If Arya gets captured, I stop watching immediately and burn all of my GoT memorabilia. If it’s Sansa (foreshadowed by Cersei’s cryptic line about employing the Golden Co. to reclaim something that “belongs to her”?), what would Jon sacrifice to save her?
Someone please assure me these scenarios are impossible. 😫😕😩
Ten Bears,
I think that “something” the belongs to her is the North. Capturing the lady of Winterfell, while surrounded by thousands of guards, and transporting her south in the midst of winter would be quite some undertaking surely?
Roshan,
This sounds pretty damn good to me.
Dolorous Methuselah
There were mutilple armies in the siege of minis Tirith and the battle of Pellenor fields, but only two distinct alliances (Mordor and their allies and Gondor and theirs). So saying it was a multy way fight isn’t accurate. There were only two goals: take the city for Mordor or save it for Gondor.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
The ‘she’ I meant is a Redditor who focuses on Jonsa and, I fear, has evoked some very ugly responses. AFAIK, she broke the news of the Instagram. She often gets dogpiled too. I feel especially sorry for her because at some point she revealed she’s 16 YO.
Presumably by the time the Jon-Cersei meeting happens, Jon and Co. are fully aware that he is Aegon. So, “allegiance” to Dany is meaningless. As the Targaryen heir, he needs to do the heavy lifting and try to negotiate treaties with his enemies himself. 😀
On the other hand, your scenario could work too. Dany is dead. Drogon, mad with grief, burns everything in sight, including Winterfell, and flies off to Valyria in a huff. Jon is counseled by Tyrion to go and broker a marriage alliance with Cersei. 😀
OK. Here’s my tinfoil.
First of all, I have to admit that, despite of what we have seen at Winterfell, I’m still convinced that Jon will win a vicroty against the NK in Ep 3: either the AotD is defeated despite or maybe even due to all that fire or that sequence belongs to Ep 5, and the battle of Ep 3 will happen elsewhere (for instance, at the Trident as the books imply).
One way or another in Ep 3 the AotD will be decimated and the NK will dissapear from the radars. Cersei will decide that it’s time to proceed with her plan, but Jon will learn (most probably from Bran) that the NK is going to attack KL (he is still airborn). So, Jon will go to KL to warn Cersei and offer his help but, insteadof accepting it, Cersei will take hi captive, because by that moment her forces (GC and Euron) will be already on the way to WF. IMO the scenes in Dubrovnik were the following: scene 1 (at the pier) – Jon’s arrival; scene 2 – Jon on the way to meet Cersei; scene 3 – Jon meets Cersei and is captured. The lastone or maybe even all the three should be wittnessed by Bran: that would explain Isaac’s presence in Dubrovnik, though he won’t be presentin KL only through the vision, not physically.
Anyway, Branshould learn about Cersei’s mischief and warn the others. Ep 6 then, will evolve around Jon’s rescue; the GC/Euron’s attack on WF and the NK’s attack on KL. Jon will be rescued at the last moment (most probably by Jaime who will kill Cersei to save Jon and KL alongside with him, though others like Arya, Tyrion, Varys, the Hound etc. will play a part in that, too). Not sure about Dany’s whereabouts, but as she will be mostly riding Drogon, her fightin scenes will be filmed indoors, and we may not see her at the outdoor sets that much. Anyway, the NK will lose or even die at KL, though I rather lean towards the first, because I think that in Ep 6 we’ll see Jon and others chasing him to his den and their final one-on-one.
Besides that, Ep 6 may wrap what’s left of WF (IMO Theon may come into play). The war will be won but at a great cost. So, that’s it.
mau,
IMO there was never a question as to this. Been obvious for, well, ever. Always going to come down to life vs. death and Cersei trying to out-Tywin them.
Setting up Tyrion knowing she’s pregnant. Jaime riding north. It’s enough to maybe bring them together again, with context of circumstances.
The biggest question is does Jon know his parentage yet? Lord knows that they could find a way to push that off, while Winterfell battled. After the fall of Winterfell, guess we see how that settles. If Bran gets to speak, ha. [and ow much time has passed at that point?]
A pre-climax to send Cersei full-mad queen — this meeting might be a step towards that. With Cersei, does there need to be a last meeting confrontation, post-fall of Winterfell, before a Jon and Dany’s Targaryen rise?
Gonna be fun.
In regards to the photographs, at first I thought that the fact Cersei is not wearing a crown on any of them was necessarily significant because she usually wears hers when acting in her official capacity as queen (she wore it at the Dragonpit, in the throne room to welcome Euron and his capture of the Sands, etc.) but then I remembered that she was sans crown when she received Tycho Nestorius. So the absence of royal headgear may not be all that meaningful but still… It is a potentially interesting detail.
You may be completely right and, if the books make it canon, then canon it will be. Until then, I prefer to think of Baelish as Westeros’s Eris. Eris did not need to micromanage every step leading to the Trojan war; she just threw the Apple of Discord and let the gods take it from there with their petty feuds, their egos and their emotions…
I like this version better but it is just my highly subjective feeling on the matter ^^
That is a very good point. Pycelle was so often used as a comic relief that we, self very much included, do tend to forget him and his own vested interests. It was a shame the show left this scene of the editing room floor !
AE,
IMO, Jon already knows that he’s Aegon Targaryan and his loose locks are a proof: hairstyle is often used as a way to maifest identity shifts and GoT has been doing that, too.
Kay,
OMG NO!
hahaha. With all the love in world…. A Dany death could not in any way shape or form happen before a final climax. It’s the apex. The center.
Parts of the dramatic plot points that the story has pre-told:
#1 They have to unite officially. That’s the build up. Starts with knowing his parentage. [Maybe her pregnancy all about the same time.] Marriage. And she must give birth. Pre-Fall of Winterfell would be too soon IMO.
Other thwartings: To be united dragons, it’s likely they’d be at Dragonstone as united dragons. Just makes sense. [Something has to push them to Dragonstone. A guess would be fall of Winterfell. Probably before an official uniting.] A marriage at Dragonstone also makes narrative sense..
As far as a Dany death. Dany’s life has to save everyone. One terrible sad easter egg:
Apex. 2nd to final climax. Just my reading of the plot foreshadowing. 🙂
Could this just be some filming for publicity and not actually part of the show?
Apollo,
Littlefinger was not behind Bran’s assassination attempt. It’s not logistically possible, and GRRM said that ASOS revealed who did it.
Well for me if it’s Sansa everything goes.
Hahaha! 😀 I actually agree. I was just responding to Thronetender’s speculation that Jon is meeting with Cersei because Dany is dead. As I said above, IMO, the more likely scenario is that Jon’s Aegon identity has been revealed by this time, and he has gone to KL to share this news with Cersei ;). No need for Auntie Dany to tag along.
Sean C.,
“Littlefinger was not behind Bran’s assassination attempt. It’s not logistically possible, and GRRM said that ASOS revealed who did it.”
———-
Thank you for reinforcing this! I’ve wracked my brain, and chronologically, geographically and causally, there’s no way LF could’ve orchestrated Bran’s attempted assassination and armed the assassin with the dagger – unless he had two ravens on steroids flying in tandem, carrying the dagger from KL. (Which is why I’ve said that scenario gets into Monty Python & The Holy Grail laden swallows/physics debates).
In fact, if LF supplied the murder weapon, he’d be a moron to flash it around WF and give it as a gift to his victim.
I’ll make you a deal here and now: If either Arya or Sansa get abducted, “everything goes.”
‘Cause both girls have been through the ringer, and to make Sansa a captive/hostage/victim again would be misogynistic- and I don’t use that term lightly.
Deal !
🤝 (handshake).
I have my brick, torch, and HBO cancellation armed and ready to go.
The “Something that belongs to her” might be Winterfell itself – in which case Sansa, Arya and many more are under threat due in part to Jon downplaying Sansa’s warnings about Cersei.
I have HBO sub and ALL GRRM books ( not sure if I’m ready to let go of the books yet. )
Sean C.,
It is possible if it was always Littlefinger’s plan to kill one of the Stark children and escalate the tension between the Starks and the Lannisters even further. I’m talking about the show here, since, as you said, we already know who was behind it in the books.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Do you think he may be there to accept Cersei’s surrender and end the war?
I mean, it’s a possibility, but of course Cersei cannot be trusted. Since he’s not a prisoner, and she’s still alive I can’t think what else it could be. I can’t imagine Jon coming to parlay with her expecting an alliance. She is clearly not to be trusted. I sure hope Tyrion didn’t convince Jon to do something stupid. I no longer trust Tyrion.
i swear last year there was a leaked picture of sansa jon little finger and ramsey all around that table were ramsay killed his father. that picture was released to throw people off and it sure did. it just showed them all standing talking.
A wild thought. What if that mysterious figure walking behind Jon Snow in the pictures from yesterday is Michael Haisman. Could be he’s playing a role in this somehow.
Lord Of Lite,
Damn! I misspelled his name and can’t edit it to Michiel Huisman.
Ten Bears, you’ve scared the sh** out of me. A kidnapped Stark never occurred to me. I was still under the illusion that Winterfell was considered way too far north for Cersei to bother with, but it’s possible she sends someone up there to snatch Sansa. I’m saying Sansa through clenched teeth: the thought of Sansa going through more such nonsense sickens and annoys me, but it’s not beyond possibility.
Plus, I wasn’t sure if she knew Arya was there. The Hound found out from Brienne, but neither of them would tell Cersei. The only way she might hear was if Pod told Bronn, and Bronn told Cersei to garner favor. None of that was actually shown on the show, just some happy extrapolation based on what we were shown.
I’d like to say I’d abandon ship alongside you if Arya is captured, but I know myself better where GoT is concerned. I’m seeing this through to the bittersweet end. The only thing I was sure of was that I’d never watch the series again if it was shown that Arya was the Waif, but many of the other posters here were kind enough to talk me off that ledge, declaring it would never happen that the Waif won out over Arya. So, if you must abandon, I’ll supply your backpack with some of the extra Girl Scout cookies I bought, and wish you a sad farewell. You like Samoas?
If these pictures aren’t meant to fake us off. That could be Jon Snow’s death scene. Look at the way the girl wearing sunglasses is reacting to what she’s witnessing. The last time I saw a woman raise her hand to her mouth like that was when Hillary Clinton witnessed the killing of Osama bin Laden. The woman is shocked at what she’s witnessing. And the tall guy is having to look down over everybody’s shoulder like someone has fallen to the floor.
my mistake. it was 2 years ago there was that leaked pic of sansa jon little finger an ramsey talking around the table. it had me all thrown off waiiting for it to happen in season 6. well played by hbo. same here with cersei n jon getting there picture taken from 100 yards away threw a small ass window where we dont know whats going on on the otherside of that wall. jon could be filming in the downstairs and her the roof. and they came to chat with the directors during a break.
Yes, this “spoiler” may have been orchestrated by HBO. It is surely unusual (unprecedented?) for legitimate press photographers to be allowed filming privileges.
If so, this deliberately generated Fake News costs HBO much less than actually staging and filming multiple endings as previously reported.
Mr Derp,
Bran could be there in one of his visions though. Not physically there but watching like he does.
Well..but remember the conversation between Ned/Cercei for her bastard children and her incest with Jaime after Ned find in the genealogy book that Geoffrey isnt Roberts son[because of the blond hair/blue eyes]..Cercei has known that Geoffrey is crazy and Ned after his imprisoning would be killed and will take the incest secret with him in his tomb ..thats why she let Geoffrey to got manipulated by Littlefinger ,..She and Littlefinger are the masterminds behinds the Starks deaths
Cercei had her role on Neds death..Her incest secret was safe after he died
Emilia Clarke was spotted yesterday along with Peter Dinklage in the stairs that Jon was stand before ..I saw filming photos details of this.Also Emilia Clarke uploaded in Tuesday an instagram photo in an airport in Rome[eating spaghetti in airports restaurant ]traveling perhaps in Dubrovnik too[its 1hour flying only]..So Danny will be there for to save Jon from Cercei and to fight in the Last Battle with the NK.
Emilia was spotted in Dubrovnik ..yesterday along with Peter Dinklage..So Danny is alive 100%
That im thinking too
Danny is alive..go watch the Filming photos
Well, we’re talking about a guy who was able to have Joffrey killed, by pulling in one of the most powerful ladies in the 7Ks and managed to escape all suspicion. Who has many agents working for him (for example who helped him and Sansa escape to the Vale undetected). So arming an assassin (or one of said agents) from KL to travel with the Kings retinue and set the chaotic wheels in motion, would not be such a “logistical impossibility” at all.
No more logistically impossible than breaking into a heavily protected Winterfell, throwing the lady of Winterfell over ones shoulder, smuggling her back to Kings Landing (past thousands of soldiers sworn to protect her, her sister, Brienne, Ghost etc.) and all the while through 30ft snowdrifts-and with the AOTD on the march. 🤷🏼♂️😜
That said, if GRRM has confirmed it wasn’t LF, fair enough. I’ll go with that.
Krissa,
They also looking directly in the cameras, this is a hoax to throw people off and its working brilliantly.
Dan76,
Again. We had Lena and Nikolaj filming in exactly the same spot for S7 and similar photos were circulated then, this is a real scene.
Yes, and that LF was the one who told ‘The Wild Wolf’ his sister had been kidnapped & raped by RT, getting Cat’s first love killed.
So the figure with her back to the window on the left – anyone else think that’s a woman…?
I agree, that’s a woman. And she’s tall, her waist is slightly higher than than the man on the right, which would make sense if 6’3 GC was standing next to 6’2 NCW !!!!
But why would they be dressed like that? Are we sure that uniform was worn by the Mountain too? Maybe they are Jon’s kings guard?!
( Oh my, Jaime’s dream – he’ll defend RT’s child this time, and he’s with BoT, with their twin swords)
Ok, I had my tin-foil moment, too.
Dan76,
Do you realize how far these cameras were? It would have been impossible to spot a single photographer or two taking shots from a window somewhere in the city. And in general, some direct confrontation between Jon and Cersei is inevitable plotwise, especially after Ep 707.
The only open question is why this show is happening outdoors. The best guess is that Cersei and Jon will be looking at something during their interaction. Last time we saw this location, it was used for Cersei and Jaime discussing Euron’s arrival. So, this time Euron’s fleet (and the GC it has ferried from Essos) may come into play as well. Jon will come to KL to warn Cersei that the NK is going to attack her and offer his help, whereas Cersei will not only take him captive but also reveal that she is sending Euron and the GC to destroy WF. The last scene Jon will see before he is taken to the Black Cells will be Euron’s fleet sailing away.
But that will be Cersei’s final mistake. The Starks will do everything to save Jon: they may sacrifice WF the way Jaime sacrificed CR. The GC will waist its efforts on a nearly empty castle, Stark-Targ forces will march to KL and so will the NK, Jon will be saved for the ultimate showdown by Jaime and/or Arya, and Cersei will get what she deserves.
But Kay that makes zero sense if Jon knows he’s the rightful king walking into Cersei unarmed to tell her that he is the rightful heir is suicide. Even if he went to tell her that he would revoke his claim Cersei would still have him killed as it’s too much of a risk.
Jon Snowed,
Agreed. If Cersei doesn’t give a shit about Dany’s claim to the Iron throne she certainly wouldn’t with Jons.
Jon surrendering his claim to the IT in exchange for Cersei’s help is certainly an option. I just fear all of these plot points aren’t going to have time to breathe in only 6 episodes, just like we saw in S7.
Northstar,
They all seem pretty male to me.. the guy at the front has a costume that’s slightly flared, so could be him.
Although in her defence, Cersei has been an advocate of equality on occasions, so who knows?
https://twitter.com/crown_foraking/status/961623419879116800
Apollo,
Hey, that’s cool! The extra in the front was my GoT walking tour guide in Dubrovnik last year! His name is Robert and he’s been an extra since season 2. Last year he mentioned he wanted to make it to Season 8 and it looks like he got his wish! He was also one of the
Queensguards behind Cersei and Jaime when they were waiting for Euron last season. 😂
http://www.game-of-thrones-dubrovnik-tour.com/about-us/
I honestly don’t see a surrender happening in any circumstance, Cersei simply would never agree so she has to die. Of all the point of views she is almost nailed on to die, probably followed by Jamie and Dany, perhaps Jon.
Not sure a death scene for Jon at the hands of Cersei makes much sense at all, especially given this is probably episode 4. Cersei killing Jon, defeating the Nights King and sitting on the Iron throne would be a twist absolutely nobody saw coming however.
Thronetender,
Mallomars.
But thank you for your kind thoughts.
I am trying to persuade myself that a Sansa or Arya abduction at this juncture would be absurd and take up too much time. I was not thrilled with the PsychoArya vs. ParanoidSansa detour last season, or the Jon-Sansa conflicts in S6. I would hope there will be no more manufactured drama with so many story threads to tie up in six episodes, along with the obligatory shock and awe battle scenes.
(I’d better stop here before I go into a preemptive anti baby drama rant.)
Apollo,
That’s cool. I’m still trying to figure out why one of the “charges” at LF’s so-called trial was an accusation that he lied about the dagger’s ownership. He could’ve easily wiggled his way out of that charge – and all of the others. (The one airtight treason case they had against him never even came up.)
The caption from one of the pics… “Headey is directed by Weiss”
There is only one episode this pertains to; as such, this is a major spoiler. Either Cersei is alive by the finale, or Arya wears her mask in the episode.
Apollo,
Thanks Apollo!
Wonder why there is no filming in the streets and no people of KL seem to show up.
Jon Snowed,
I concur: Jon’s death in Ep 4 by Cersei’s hand makes zero sense and it won’t happen (or, if it will Jon will be immediately brought back by Mel, but I don’t think the showrunners will play the resurrection trick for the second time). Jon may die but only by the NK’s hand and not before the end of E5.
Moreover, it wouldn’t be wise for Cersei to kill Jon right away: he makes a valuable hostage and will prevent Dany from melting down the Red Keep while Cersei will be looking for a right moment to take her out. Besides that, torturing Jon both physically and psychologically would give Cersei a pleasure, she won’t be able to refuse. But, as I have already written, that will be her mistake and lead to her demise, because in E5 Jon will be saved.
And Jon comming to ask for Cersei’s help is another stupid idea. Jon won’t be asking for help: he will be offering his help against the NK, cause there is one million people living in KL, and all of them will be recruited to the AotD, if he does nothing (which also implies that the NK will suffer an intermediate defeat in Ep 3).
MeeraReed,
You read too much into it. Those captions were written by some not-too-well informed and not-native-English speaker journalist or editor. I bet that “directing” simply means guiding in this case.
Any news about the boat and harbour set prepared at Pile bay?
Rhllor help us! As much as I hate to admit it, it seems that one of the leaks most likely to be spot on! Poor Jon Snow.
It is important because of the consequences – the chain of events that followed LF casting Tyrion as the villain. LF telling Cat that the knife belonged to Tyrion led to Cat taking Tyrion prisoner and to Lysa in the Eyrie. Tyrion’s abduction led to Jaime’s attack on Ned and his men, and to Tywin’s destruction of the Riverlands. The Lannisters were already underway in their war when Ned was arrested at the end of episode 107. The BwB was comprised of men Ned sent to the Riverlands to stop the Mountain’s actions. Robb doesn’t call his banners until later, when he receives Sansa’s letter from KL detailing Ned’s arrest.
Like Sansa says, it was LF who orchestrated the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters. It was LF who coached Lysa to suggest to Cat that there was foul play in Jon Arryn’s death. It was LF who built upon that by setting in motion the series of events above through his identification of Tyrion as the knife’s owner.
Krissa,
Maybe they just need the background of the city?
You think they’re gonna get everyone to one point, get all the equipment etc ready in the three days of filming that they’re there for just to mislead people? Maybe these pics are somewhat staged, who knows, but they’re definitely filming something together. They’re not gonna waste a day of filming to fool people when they only have three days there.
Jon Snowed,
He hasn’t been the rightful heir since Robert killed Rheagar on the Trident and was chosen as king. No Targaryen is the “rightful” heir at this point unless they conquer the throne by right of conquest. D&D just have shown that they have no clue about how these things work.
This post is also missing the most interesting pictures in which it appears that Jon is either kneeling or being forced to kneel in front of Cersei.
…,
We don’t see any of Jon kneeling, we only see Cersei glancing down slightly. It’s obvious that they’re taking photographs as well as shooting the scene in question, as they often do.
There are also shots of Cersei with her back to the cameras, facing her kingsguard, possibly for the same purpose. It doesn’t mean she’s picking someone out of a lineup.
Whilst I agree you are factually correct Bran also stated that Jon was the rightful heir to the throne in S7. At the very least he has more backing than either Cersei or Dany but the least desire which fits the bitter sweet ending.
Jon Snowed,
Danny has no more interest in the Iron Throne anymore sir..after she sow the WW and Viserion dies.She said herself to Cercei..you can keep the Throne and the city..in the Dragonpit scene ..She is now interested more in Jon..Peoples are misunderstood her and her honest and real intentions..to save the peoples from offending situation..even and if its called Slave Masters or WW.
Roshan,
Yes I want this, good theory it does make a lot of sense as I can’t see Cersei going down as early as EP4
Apollo,
I also had an impression that Jon was on his knees in that photo. Could be the angle and/or position, but it general Jon being forced on his knees would make sense: one way or another hardly one can expect this meeting ending well for Jon, especially after Tyrion’s straightforward foreshadowing in Ep 707. But until Ep 805/6 Jon has a Valyrian steel plot armor, so hardly anyone should worry about him being captured by Cersei.
And BTW, has anyone seen this spoiler from the WF set and what do you think of it? http://wikiofthrones.com/14655/video-kings-landing-set-belfast-spoiler-winterfell-set/
My general rule is that if it’s not reported by Watchers on the Wall then I a sceptical.
If it’s true then either Team Targ have a major falling out or the Hound is fighting Whites of recently deceased.
Inga,
i saw it..It could be WW Unsulieds fighting the Hound or a WW Hound fighting Unsulieds.
Did anyone hear the info “wiki Of Thrones”provided recently that apparently the hound and the unsullied are fighting against each other according to their source? Not sure I believe it though considering these are the same people who claimed Sansa was pregnant in previous seasons
Inga,
I’ll wait on the WOTW confirming before I give it credibility.
If it is credible- could be
Alba Stark,
Gotcha. Thanks. So it was falsely blaming Tyrion that was significant, not that it was really his (LF’s) knife. Arya’s accusation was a little ambiguous. (She said something like “You told our mother this knife belonged to Tyrion Lannister. That was another one of your lies. It was yours.”)
In S7e4, Bran asked him point blank who the knife belonged to, and (I think) LF said he didn’t know. That didn’t come up at all at his “trial.”
Yet, I still thought LF could’ve wiggled out of the accusation: He DID tell Cat the knife was his…but that he’d lost it in a bet to Tyrion. He could’ve easily said, “that wager was such a long time ago; I did lose the knife to Tyrion, but I guess it changed hands after that. I didn’t lie to your mother.”
They could have and should have nailed LF on his orchestration of the sham “hostage exchange” (Kingslayer for Sansa & Arya). That’s where I thought the “trial” was leading. Pushing Lysa out the Moon Door was refuted by Sansa herself, and everything else he was charged with rested on the “visions” of a magical three-eyed bird.
Anyway, could riddance to that POS. And now Arya’s got a kickass VS dagger. 👸🏻🔪
Emilia is not in Dubrovnik Artesmia it was a false alarm she was confirmed in London. It doesn’t make her dead but she is not in these scenes between Jon and Cersei.
Apollo,
I trust nothing unless it comes from WotW or HPNN. (Hot Pie News Network.)
Who’s their source? Devin Nunes?
Could this be a Bran vision? All of his visions have been short in length and sharply edited (barring TOJ). It wouldn’t take long to film and any “spoilers” photographed would easily be dispelled upon the episode’s release.
Or, could this be the GC turning their backs on Cersie and forcing an Alliance with Jon to ensure there will be a Kingdom left to loan money to? No population = No Debt = No Profit! The GC always sides with the Army who can pay them back!
Mel,
Didn’t “Wiki of Thrones” also report last season that The Hound would be fighting a flock of wight chickens? And that the NK would reanimate Theon’s shlong so it could pop out of the box at the Dragonpit scene?
She was in Italy yesterday ..on Rome in an airport[photo from instagram] ..so i assume she is traveling to Dubrovnik via Rome..for the today filming[the 3rd day of filming]
SomeGuy,
Yes, I also think that we’ll see Bran witnessing Jon’s meeting with Cersei in his vision: someone will have to warn the others that Jon has run into trouble, so that a resque mission could be organised ASAP.
As for the GC – I don’t think they’ll turn their backs on Cersei: there’s no time to develop the characters and motivate such twist. IMO the GC will be just a plot device enabling Cersei and Euron to make more troubles to the protagonists. Though on the other hand, the GC may switch sides or be ordered to do so after Cersei’s demise just to wrap its plotline up: Davos may go to talk to Tycho Nestoris and Tycho may simply redirect the credit line he opened for Cersei. Anyway, it’s a sideline story and I wouldn’t expect anything all too exiting out of that.
Ten Bears,
I took that report with a grain of salt, too. I hope it will be confirmed or debunked by the WOTW soon. However, the most interesting thing about that is that filming at the WF set apparently continues (there were other reports, too), and all that jazz is not involving Jon or Dany. I can imagine that there will be many fighting scenes concentrated around other characters, like the Hound or Tormund or Briene, and that Jon Snow doesn’t have to be present on the background of each and every one of them, but still it’s weird. Such an important scene like the alleged breakthrough through the WG was filmed while Kit Harington was filming in Iceland and now this… It really looks like at least half of the skirmish in WF will be happening, while Jon is detained in KL, namely, in Ep 5, which makes me wonder about Ep 3. Will we have two sieges of WF instead of one? Will it withstand the attack of the AOTD just to fall to Euron and the GC? Or will Ep 3 be something entirely different, like the NK bypassing WF and Jon battling him in and open field?
That would, indeed, be a plot twist! They’d have to rename the book series “A Song of Lions and Arrogance.”
Inga,
You know what though? I’ve found that the most critical scenes are those filmed indoors, on a sound stage. The action sequences can be filmed for days or weeks, but the main characters only need to be there for a day or two if most of their scenes are indoors. That’s why the “OMG! Where’s Dany” worries are pointless: she’s probably indoors on a mechanical green screen dragon.
Nope Yeah Clarke on twitter confirmed she returned to London and was not involved in filming.
In an interview with EW for the Han Solo Star Wars movie, Emilia Clarke said that she had traveled to Rome to shoot more of Dolce Gabana ads. She wasn’t in Rome to travel to Dubrovnik.
I think Tyrion will persuade Jon, as the newly revealed head of House Targaryen, to go and negotiate with Cersei, instead of going to war with her (similar to his counsel in Season 7). Jon will agree and fall into a trap at KL. This will lead to mayhem and the very end game, and ultimately lead to Cersei’s death at Tyrion’s hand and KL being burned down.
Ten Bears,
Good point. The sequence filmed at Dubrovnik should be rather short indeed. However, they wouldn’t need much time for Jon’s alleged arrest. I imagine he’ll say his usual words about bounding together and saving one million people, whereas Cersei will shut him down telling that she doesn’t need him and that he’s a northern fool. Maybe, she’ll show him why (Euron and the GC in the bay). That would be a pivotal but a short exchange, most robably, witnessed by Bran in his vision, and then there will be cut to another scene or rather credits, because I expect it to happen at the very end of Ep 4.
As for the battle sequences and involvement of the actors, you may be right as well. But it’s strange nonetheless: from what I gathered Miguel Sapochnic began filming only recently and Kit Harington was hardly present on the WF set since the New Year. So, something doesn’t line up, cause I can’t imagine the first big battle against the AOTD happening without Jon Snow.
Inga,
Where did all of this “Jon Snow is a prisoner” talk come from? Did I miss something ?
Did I miss something? Are other spoilers, leaks, and fake leaks now openly discussed?
MeeraReed,
Lots of comments seem to assume Jon is in KL as a hostage or captive. No proof. That’s what I was getting at: it’s rank speculation.
Wow…more zipping around Westeros. Interesting. Who knows how Jon will react after discovering his true lineage? Maybe there is baby-swapping involved…Hmm…
Ten Bears,
You got me. I do admit that all those ideas about Jon becomming Cersei’s prisoner/hostage/captive were instigated by a alleged leak, namely
. Later the author admitted that the leak was just a fanfiction, so I assume it’s OK to discuss it along with other fanfictions and specullations? After all, we can’t expect Jon’s and Cersei’s meeting to end in peace and harmony, can we? Hardly Cersei will adopt Jon as a surrogate son:)
Something slightly off topic that confuses me is this notion of Dany being pregnant and this having a major impact on events this season. I don’t doubt she will be pregnant, but I don’t think she’s suddenly going to be enormous and out of action or even birthing a child (as some suggest). The WW have breached the wall. It is not going to take them 9 months to wreak absolute destruction on the seven kingdoms and eventually get to KL (or get defeated). The distance between Castle Black and KL is supposedly 2700 miles. A slow undead army that never needs to stop and rest could cover maybe the same amount of ground a Medieval army could cover per day (only 7 hours of marching), which is around 18 miles (according to Prof Google). So without ever resting (though admittedly getting caught up in battles), it would only take them around 180 days to get there (or five months). I just don’t see how they can lengthen that by another 4 months and keep it plausible. If Dany finds out she is pregnant before they get to WF then that is going to set an unrealistic tone for the series, as it wouldn’t take several weeks to sail from Dragonstone up to Whiteharbour – I mean with a lack of pregnancy tests she’s not going to know for a good while yet. I’m probably being a stickler for details and too pedantic, but it has been bothering me wondering how a pregnancy could work dramatically for this coming season. I would be pretty disappointed if they have her massively pregnant or giving birth before the NK has reached KL – unless of course they show him putting his feet up for several months and just chilling (no pun intended).
J zoomed in and strained my eyes. Maybe somebody with fashion expertise can confirm that the costume on the guard on the left is indeed that of a woman. The ridges on the upper arm are the same as on the figure on the right; however, the cut of the fabric and shape of the body seems different.
If I had $2 to wager, I’d say that’s Brienne.
Ten Bears,
Yes I thought it looked like a woman too. Doubt it’s Brienne though.
I almost wonder if it will be something she discovers after the smoke clears. I don’t know how their timeline is going to be or if they will do a time lapse or whatnot, but it could just be possible that the MaybeBaby isn’t born during the series.
I would think it’s ok to discuss it, but why would you want to discuss anything that was already proven to be untrue? All it seems to do is spread misinformation. I would think it would get us further away from the truth rather than closer to it, but ymmv.
Up next on “As the Iron Throne Turns” 🙂
Is it too much to wish for that one of the guards peeps over the wall and shouts “Go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!!!”
Che,
Oh Che I am so glad you posed this conundrum! I too have wondered about this and, this is a serious question by the way, if Danearys does go on to have a baby, would it take the normal gestation of 9 months ie the baby being a Dragon,so to speak.
Mr Derp,
Lol. Ever since Tyrion covertly closed the ‘faux’ deal with Cersei after discovering her pregnancy, I can’t help but wonder if there will be some shenanigans involving newborns in S8. Yes, I understand the concern about time but speed & time haven’t been issues in the past…especially since “The Door.” 😉
Pigeon,
Lol. Watch out for tossed bovines!
Shenanigans abound for sure, but I don’t think Cersei’s baby will ever see the light of day since all her children were already born, at least according to the prophecy. Though I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if D&D decided to call an audible and take on the attitude that prophecies are nothing more than bullshit.
Speculation amongst GoT fans in my circle is that Dany will have that baby or die trying before the final battle is won. Hence that bittersweet ending that was promised.
Interesting…yeah, we can’t ignore that but is the prophesy related to her “children with the king”?
Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds…
Is the prophesy only relevant to her time with the king (no mention of Jaime’s implication other than ‘gold crowns’)? Why do I think there is a twist there?
Hodors Bastard,
She didn’t really have any children with Robert though, did she? Weren’t they all from Jaime except for the random black haired boy who died of fever or something like that?
Mr Derp,
Yeah, I clarified my response above. Thx. The key issue I’m wondering about is her “time with the king”, which is no longer relevant.
Alba Stark,
“…it was LF who orchestrated the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters. It was LF who coached Lysa to suggest to Cat that there was foul play in Jon Arryn’s death. It was LF who built upon that by setting in motion the series of events above through his identification of Tyrion as the knife’s owner.”
One could make a solid case (with a bit of added tinfoil) that Littlefinger was the mover behind almost all of the Chaos that beset Westeros since before Robert’s Rebellion. He hated the Starks, but he almost equally hated the establishment of High Lords that kept him confined to lower aristocracy. In S1 he had told Ros, “I”m not going to fight them. I’m going to fuck them.” And that he did.
My, you’re on a roll today. This is my favorite!
Oh, Lady G, it is hard to keep a Goodman down. “A Song of Lions and Arrogance” has a nice ring to it.
And I don’t think Myrcella would really count as wearing a golden crown since she was never Queen, right? Only Tommen and Joffrey have worn golden crowns.
Ten Bears,
> You told our mother this knife belonged to Tyrion Lannister. That was another one of your lies. It was yours.
I don’t remember exactly how it was in the books and show, but isn’t all of that a lie?
(a) Joffrey took it from the Targaryen armory that Robert captured. This could makes sense, because the royal family could have expensive weaponry. However, to give an assassin a Valyrian steel dagger, why? (if the assassin knew it was Valyrian steel, he could sell it and live happily ever after) Maybe it makes sense because Joffrey.
(b) However, Littlefinger betting on a Valyrian steel dagger or giving it to an assassin? I think he made the whole thing up on the spot knowing Tyrion was still in the North and that he could be captured, and not really considering a better story — so the dagger was probably never his. He claimed he lost it to Tyrion, betting on Jaime Lannister, but the Mountain unseathed him. Why would Tyrion bet against his brother? Why would Littlefinger lose a Valyrian steel dagger in a silly bet, without strategical gain! (At least marrying Sansa to the Boltons (show) was a priceless bet that could have worked if Ramsay wasn’t a psychopath or if Stannis had won). It doesn’t really make sense.
Heh…I always thought “golden crown” was a reference to being blonde…hence implying Jaime…! (since they make such a big deal of hair and lineage in the books!) 🙂
She did, her first one. She talks about him with Catelyn when Bran was in a coma. The child died, but I think they pretty much want us to forget that whole conversation happened.
Whoops, you totally mentioned him, lol. But I’d still say he counts.
Ah yes, that would make sense. Why didn’t I think of that? Derp!
Hodors Bastard,
“Run Away! Run Away!”
Luckily, I got away. There’s this cave nearby with only a cute rabbit milling about……..wait…
Mr Derp,
You asked a good question. My answer is probably that I like the twist. It’s both unexpected and natural, exactly in the style of GOT. Moreover, I have a feeling that the person who wrote it must have known somethning about the real plot development, because it would be impossible to write some random pages of the script without having the vision of the whole story. And the story we’ve got from those pages was both good and lighing up with spoilers and/or speculations, which proved to be right later.
For instance, the guess that the new set built in NI will stand in for KL began as soon as we saw the first pictures of it and that immediately led to the speculation that the ultimate battle against the NK will take place in KL. But the ultimate battle against the NK cannot happen without Jon, right? So, the showrunners had to bring Jon to KL, as well as add some complications. And the most obvious source for these complications is Cersei whose role is basicly playing a useful idiot or ally to the NK (+ Euron + GC but they are only secondary characters/plot devices). Therefore, Jon comming to KL with the best intentions and Cersei attempting to backstab him one way or another is inevitable. Moreover, we need the final triger for Cersei’s demise. So, Jon’s alleged arrest looks like a logical answer to what the story needs in order to tie up loose ends and reach a satisfactory climax.
I hope I managed to explain my point.
Roz’s Ghost,
I thought of this too but if he were there to accept her surrender, he probably wouldn’t disarm. The fact that he’s not carrying Longclaw suggests that he’s there on her terms.
IF this isn’t a fakeout a la Shae turning up at filming after she died, or the White Walker i the window of King’s Landing a few years ago.
Oh, absolutely – though I think he had a particular hatred for House Stark that surpassed that which he felt for the other High Lords. After all, Brandon and then Ned took Catelyn from him. It wouldn’t have been chivalrous in the least, but it is interesting to contemplate how different the timeline would’ve been had Brandon not heeded Catelyn’s pleas to spare LF during their “duel”.
And, yes, much of the chaos of the latter part of Robert’s reign was of his doing –
particularly the financial chaos. He set up a system which allowed Robert to spend as much as he wanted and made him reliant on LF to produce cashflow where none should really exist.
Certainly he played a massive role in the start of the War of the Five Kings. Where I think there is a danger, though, is when we start giving adult LF’s skills to teenage LF. I don’t think he had an opportunity to effect real chaos until he went to KL. And that doesn’t seem to have happened until quite a few years into Robert’s reign.
Though I do think one of LF’s talents was exploiting events to his advantage. It is more of a book thing, but he used Lysa’s fear of her son being taken from her (for fostering) when he persuaded her to use the Tears of Lys on her husband, for example. Just as he isolates Sansa by making her dependent on him following her escape from the Purple Wedding (he does this more in the books, but to a reasonable extent in the show).
I would also add that LF was hardly involved in Renly’s assassination, but he was in the right place at the right time to use it to his advantage – getting the Lannisters to trust and reward him for bringing the Tyrells onto their side.
What if Jamie becomes King?
To hell with the Jamie is Volunqour alone, why can’t he be both?
That’s a twist.
I always assumed that was just some evil ass theatrics from Cersei..
Pigeon,
pretty sure Gendry is Cersei’s son..Robert was his father, his mother was blonde, and Cersei had a dark haired baby boy.
??? Gendry is a bastard…one of RB’s sixteen bastards/bastardettes. Cersei tried to have them all killed once Joff assumed power. She was about 75% successful.
That’s in the books. On the show the City Watch kills Robert’s children on Joffrey’s order.
I should have stopped at “one of 16 bastards”. I’ve got into this discussion before. Imho, there’s no way Joff gave that order without Cersei’s advice/involvement (footage or not). She wanted all traces of RB gone.
*5* Snowblind,
I thought about that, too.
They took away from her the dark haired baby, but was the little boy already dead? What about this ugly Pycelle…?
The assumed (?) death/takeaway of the dark haired heir was the beginning of the end of the relationship between Cercei and Robert.
Who could have been interested?
What did LF say? Imagine the worst, someone might be intended (basically).
It could have been LF. In one scene he told Sansa, that he sees (and longs for) himself sitting on the IT. And this ugly Pycelle could have been his stooge…
Aaargh!
Sorry if I missed it, but I don’t think anyone has made a comment about Cersei not wearing her crown. Do you think there’s any significance? Especially if she is with Jon, you’de think she would want to show that off.
Colin Armfield,
Don’t be so sure, I have a source in N.Ireland that said they were moving actors all over the place to throw cameras off.
Inga:
I don’t see why Bran couldn’t go all Hitchcock on Cersei’s ass, and simply warg into a flock of ravens and take her out The Birds-style.
[takes another sip of Cognac]
Che:
At the risk of sending you running from the forum screaming “TMI!!!… You are aware that most women with regular cycles figure it out after five weeks or so, when their periods are terribly late… right?
[stops basic anatomy lesson, refills Cognac]
Suzie,
I also just noticed that if you zoom in on the amulet Cersei is wearing in the last shot, I can make out the shape of a dragon. Does that mean she has defected to Dany and Jon? I wish their was a high res photo to confirm. Has she worn this amulet before?
My tinfoil-historical theory is ASoIaF is based loosely on War of Roses. The houses of York (White) and Lancaster (Red) unite by marriage. But, Got switches the gender, White instead of female will be male, Jon and Red, female (Cersei) instead of male.
Wolfish,
Haha! As a woman who has had 3 babies and obsessively tried to conceive at least two of them, I am aware of this, but thank you.
What is true though, is if you are not trying for a baby and you’re, you know, at war, you’re not going to be hugely bothered by when your period shows up or obsessively tracking it, so I think it would take Dany a little longer than that to figure out she was pregnant. With her last pregnancy, she didn’t figure it out till she started showing a bit (which doesn’t happen for a good while yet) and when Irri asked her when last she bled, she couldn’t quite remember, so I don’t think she’s going to be hugely tracking her cycles.
I think I’m going to need to suspend disbelief for this one.
They will have her heavily pregnant during S8..Also she would have already been pregnant ..in this boat[boatsex] ..during the traveling to Winterfell..Also there will be filming for 13-14 months ..Enought time for a baby to be born ..Remember that when Roberts Rebellion begins Lyanna was heavily pregnant and her baby comes to life after the war was ended..The same will have to be and this times..With all those leaks[fake or not]saying that there will be a baby ..it makes me things what my grandma had said always”were is fire ..there is also smoke”
the baby is going to born in the S8E5..last scene of the episode..There is a timeline filming for 13-14 months ..Enought time for a pregnancy and a baby to come
The baby will born human this time..The first it was a human sacrificed for her Dragons to come into life..This time will have Dragons sacrificed for a human baby comes into life.
She will probably will had that baby before the show ends.
She in the books is bleeding again and have been pregnant by Daario ..That suggests that in the show she can also had childrens and its capable to bear again..She will understand the pregnancy when her belly grow up 3-4 months or even maybe Bran [along with the Maester there confirm it] will reveal her pregnancy .
Suzie,
I don’t think it’s a dragon: more likely, it’s a lion. Cersei used to wear a similar pendant in one of the earlier seasons (later she wore a smaller one), so it should be the sigil of her house.
As for Cersei not wearing the crown, it might be that the photos were taken from the rehearsal rather than from actual filming or it might be that Cersei is not supposed to wear the crown in this scene at all. I’m not shure. Her goldclad attire doesn’t match with the crown which is silver, so it might be the later, after all. And Cersei might be meeting Jon crownless for the same reason Jon is meating her weaponless: they are enemies at piecetalks. But knowing Cersei, anyone can hadly expect her to play fair – she would say and do whatever is necessary to gain the upper hand. So, putting aside the crown might be a part of deception: Jon is a northern fool but not an absolute fool and his advisors should take care of some precautions, if he has to walk into the lioness’es den. Therefore, I assume that, before she turns the tables, Cersei will be playing nice. However, her overall attire is just radiant – in a malicious way, but radiant nonetheless. Moreover, it has the same motive of twisted strips we saw on Cersei’s overcoat at the Dragonpit (and in my interpretation this was a sign of twist and deception). Therefore, the attire implies that this scene will be the scene of Cersei’s deception and triumph over humble and war-worn Jon (but that won’t be for long).
I would also add that given Daenerys believes she is incapable of conceiving (despite what Jon said to her in the Dragonpit) even if she was tracking her cycle, she would find other reasons for things to be off. She would explain away any indicators she was pregnant as something else.
We may well have a repeat of what happened with Rhaego – someone else joining the dots for Daenerys. Maybe Missandei?
Che,
Yes, you are right: the whole setup implies that Dany shouldn’t recongnise her pregnancy right away. First and foremost, she has persuaded herself that she can’t have children. No-one told her that, not even “the whitch who killed her husband”, but somehow she decided that, once she won’t have children with Drogo, she won’t have children at all. Hence, if her period gets distorted or if some other signs appear, she would write them off to stress or some sickness. Therefore, someone else will have to notice those signs of pregnancy and convince Dany that she’s not barren. But before that happens, she should engage into fighting etc.
IMO, the whole idea of the slow progress of the WW and events of the season spanning over 9 months is based on the belief that Dany must die at the end leaving her newbon child in Tyrion’s (or Jon’s) hands. But GoT is not that type of a story. Time and time again we learned that children are not their fathers. So, what makes people think that Jon’s and Dany’s baby fostered by Tyrion and Sansa will grow up into a perfect ruler? There is both nature and nurture, but the outcome is always rather upredictable and people become what they become due to their individual ability to reinterpret what they get in their own way. Therefore, Jon’s and Dany’s baby would be just a random stranger on the throne, and that ending would be neither bitter, nor sweet. Jon and Dany are the only ones who had an overarhing story of learning how to rule from own mistakes, so it should be them, although we know of all their flaws and imperfecttions. As for Tyrion, he might do as well, but, despite of showing a lot of inborn savvy in S2 and partly S3, recently he proved to be the biggest fool of all. So, either he will get some major competence exam during the last season (though I can’t quite imagine how), or his story will take a more heroic turn, and at the end it will be Tyrion who dies saving the world and/or Jon&Dany.
Alba Stark,
Regarding who will connect the dots indicating Dany’s pregnancy – it could be maester Volkan (his record proves his competence in this field), but I would rather bet on Sam. And Dany will have to name her son Dickon after that:)
True, Sam is a good option – I can definitely picture Jon describing to Sam how Daenerys has been feeling a bit off and Sam realizing straight away what’s going on!
Inga,
Showrunners tend to do some unnofficial directing, even when they are not the official directors (which they weren’t here, no).
Sam: “So you do know where to put it.”
Artemisia,
#NoBabyDramas!
😡
I like your tinfoil theory! However, why not include the possibility of Jaime (male) + Sansa, or God forbid, Arya? *
* Come to think of it, the prospect of left-handed Arya kicking left-handed Jaime’s ass in sparring sessions every day would be poetic justice.
I have to say, I cannot wait for all these warriors to gather at Winterfell and see how amazing Arya has become at fighting!
Inga,
I agree, I think that with the fact that Dany doesn’t believe she can bear children, she will be even less likely to pay attention to her cycles, so she won’t be discovering her pregnancy for a long time should she be pregnant – maybe a few months post-boat-sex, which will be well into the events of season 8. Unless the Night King makes a beeline for every settlement on his march south (which is, most people seem to assume, where he is headed), then it really won’t take him 9 months to get there. The army of the dead isn’t like any other army and skirmishes won’t hold them up for long (there are 100,000 of them – they are surely going to quickly wipe out the opposition) – I also don’t envisage them taking part in lengthy sieges as they can scale walls (as we have seen).
I don’t believe that Jon and Dany’s baby will end up on the throne at the end of the saga. You’re right, the character arcs for Jon and Dany has been preparing them for leadership; it would make no sense to put their child on the throne after all that work. I mean epi-genetics might mean that Jon and Dany’s experiences switch on certain genes in their offspring that would make the predisposed to be a good leader too, but that’s clearly not a satisfactory ending to Jon and Dany’s arcs (I’m being light-hearted in that clearly, this would be an awful ending). I think you’re right in that Tyrion is the only other character with a leadership arc (apart from Sansa, but I believe her becoming Lady of Winterfell has completed that element of her arc), but I don’t think he will sit the throne unless Jon and Dany are both dead – which I don’t see happening with all the foreshadowing for Jon to become king. It may be too sweet an ending, but I would like for Jon and Dany to rule together – not that I ‘ship’ them as a couple (I am still uncomfortable with the fact they are aunt and nephew), but I feel it would be a beautiful ending to their stories.
Littlefinger being one of my favourite characters, I realise that I am not necessarily entirely objective on this matter so all apologies and a massive grain of salt, first and foremost ^^
I do not for a second deny that Baelish is responsible, directly and indirectly, for a healthy percentage of Westeros’s “chaos” however, I cannot help but feel that Littlefinger is, quite regularly, used as a scapegoat to shift some of, if not all, the blame away from characters we like or want to like.
Many of us want to like Rhaegar and Lyanna; some because they like Jon and therefore want his parents to be likable too; some because they like Arya and, since Ned drew a parallel between his youngest daughter and his sister, they want Lyanna to have been awesome; some because they are into forbidden romances; etc.
Regardless of the reason, this desire to support Rhaegar and Lyanna is somewhat difficult to articulate with the fact that these two’s secret elopment caused Robert’s Rebellion, hence the deaths of tens of thousands of people including Lyanna’s brother and father and Rhaegar’s innocent wife and children. We do not want to believe that they could have been so selfish, so entitled, so indifferent to consequences as to allow the country to suffer in the name of their “luuuurv”. So we try to find other culprits and Littlefinger, who is already guilty of so many crimes anyway, feels like a comfortable enough candidate.
Except that he was a teenager when Robert’s Rebellion occurred; except that he was recovering from his duel with Brandon which left him nearly eviscerated; except that all he was at the time was the son of a very minor lord and had therefore no “network” whatsoever; etc.
Rhaegar and Lyanna could have stopped the Rebellion at any moment. They could have sent letters to inform their relatives of their decision to elope. They could have walked into the Red Keep after Brandon’s or Rickard’s arrest and made a public announcement. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna could have shown up at the Trident to prove to the world that she was healthy, happy and thoroughly unkidnapped.
They did not.
They let Brandon get arrested and did nothing. They let Rickard get arrested and did nothing. They let both of them get executed and did nothing. They let the Rebellion happen and did nothing. Rhaegar even went so far as to join his father’s army to fight against Lyanna’s remaining relatives (Ned was at the Trident, Rhaegar could have ended up fighting with him one-on-one and killing him).
Now, they might have had “good” reasons to do what they did, namely nothing : perhaps they believed the Rebellion had to happen as part of some prophecy or other; perhaps they failed to grasp the depth of Aerys’s madness and, once he killed Brandon and Rickard, they felt the war could no longer be prevented anyway… But it does not change anything to the fact that they are responsible. Even if they left a note informing Lyanna’s relatives of her decision and said note was intercepted by a mysterious someone, they could have rectified the situation at any given time afterwards. They chose not to.
Lyanna “Free Spirit” Stark fell for a man she barely knew because he gave her a bunch of flowers. Lyanna “Special Girl” Stark was seemingly unbothered by the careless cruelty her prince displayed when he publicly humiliated his wife for her benefit. Lyanna “Real Direwolf” Stark did not lift a finger when her brother and father got killed and when her sweetheart’s daddy demanded the head of another of her brothers.
Rhaegar “Prince Charming” Targaryen went to battle againt his child-to-be’s uncle. Rhaegar “Father of the Year” Targaryen kickdropped his wife and small children to marry someone else. Rhaegar “He Played the Lute Therefore He Cared for the Commonfolk” Targaryen did not care to prevent a war that brought his people to their knees.
And I feel we may have to accept that at some point.
Artemisia,
Maybe I understood the episode wrong when Ned dies. I thought Cersei truly wanted Ned to go to the wall and she was as shocked as everyone else when Joffrey made the last minute decision to have him beheaded instead.
ACME,
100% in agreement with you about Littlefinger, Rhaegar, and Lyanna!
Adding to GRRM’s bittersweet ending statement, MW and others have said that it’s not possible for every fan base to love the ending. It’s the Game of Thrones, after all: you win or you die.
Given that, I just don’t think it is possible that both Jon and Dany survive. But, a baby would give the surviving parent the willpower to honor his/her dead love and make the world a better place for their child.
Or that’s too predictable, and at the end of the wars almost everyone is obliterated but Tyrion and Sansa, who realize they are still legally married and decide to unite the South and the North under one constitutional monarchy. Bureaucracy wins over heroics!
Alba Stark,
i hope not..Doesnt make sense for Danny to loose another child..I f there gonna be stillborn baby ..that will be Cerceis only
i prefer Maester Volkan better to deliver that baby..He delivered Roose Boltons son in S6..without problems
hmmm
There will be baby dramas probably..sorry
Cercei wanted Geoffrey to execute Ned ..because Ned knows her dirty incest secrets
ACME,
Everything about this is exactly my feeling as well. Which is probably why during the wedding flashback,
Bran: “He loved her, and she loved him.”
Me: “Oh, well good for youuuuuu!!!!! Dumbarses.” 🙄
LadyGoodman,
I agree that I think it’s too sweet for the bittersweet ending GRRM has promised. I think the theory that Dany will have a baby by Jon and then die leaving Jon on throne or being steward till baby can sit throne is most likely. I think one of them surviving is more likely than both dying.
Preach it!!!!!!!!!!
#NoBabyDramas
ACME,
It is curious that while the readers/ audience hold Rhaegar and Lyanna responsible for their actions, no one in story seems to lay any real blame on them. Ned doesn’t blame Lyanna in any way for what happened. His memories of her are filled with sadness and love, but no recrimination. He doesn’t even seem to hold any grudge against Rhaegar. Robert does, (even of its because he thinks Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna), but Ned does not. Jaime Lannister feels a lot of guilt for letting down Rhaegar because his wife and children got butchered under his watch, but he never questions Rhaegar’s abandonment of his family.
Even the Martells don’t seem too mad at Rhaegar, especially considering that Doran had arranged for his daughter to marry Viserys. And iirc, Oberyn was one of the signatories to this agreement. Given that both Aerys and Rhaegar hold some responsibility for what happened to Elia and her children, one would think that they would be a bit careful before committing any more of their relatives in marriage to a Targaryen, but nope! Doran only holds the Lannisters responsible, there is no indication that he holds any blame against Rhaegar.
I think this is one of the reasons why the readers, perhaps unconsciously, get conditioned to find excuses and not lay much blame on them, because apparently no one in the story does too.
The revelation of the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar backstory is one of the things that I am most curious about in the books. But, since it seems less and less likely that GRRM will ever finish the series, we will probably never get all the answers 🙁 .
ACME,
I have thought about some of these same things, but your summary of why maybe we shouldnt like these people is on target. That being said we do want a romance, a Romeo and Juliet crossed lovers kind of thing, tragic but romantic all the same. We let that blind us. I think LF certainly used all of this to his goals in some way but you make several good points here.
Artemisia,
True, but look at that scene and watch her face. If she wanted him dead, this wasn’t how/where she had planned.
Che,
My apologies; I certainly didn’t mean to insult you. (And I associate the name “Che” with Guevara, so of course I assumed you were male! LOL.)
As for Dany… She was still very young and inexperienced during her first pregnancy, and had been raised by men. I can imagine her being painfully aware of what she didn’t know, and hesitant to ask her servants many things for fear of revealing her utter ignorance. She knows a bit more by now, I would think… 😉
Che,
“I don’t believe that Jon and Dany’s baby will end up on the throne at the end of the saga. You’re right, the character arcs for Jon and Dany has been preparing them for leadership; it would make no sense to put their child on the throne after all that work. I mean epi-genetics might mean that Jon and Dany’s experiences switch on certain genes in their offspring that would make the predisposed to be a good leader too, but that’s clearly not a satisfactory ending to Jon and Dany’s arcs (I’m being light-hearted in that clearly, this would be an awful ending…”
__________
I’ve been staunchly anti-baby drama and still am. I didn’t believe it when “leaks”-readers posing as prognosticators started “predicting” Jon would fornicate with and impregnate Dany, yet S7 concluded with a “love” scene aboard the S.S. Incest; Cersei getting pregnant came out of nowhere too. I am still having trouble processing the thought that GRRM’s epic tale will conclude with a variant on the old Magical Chosen Baby/Savior of the World ending we’ve seen on one form or another in so many books and movies (e.g., “The Terminator”; “Willow”; “Star Wars”; every daytime soap opera; etc.)
With that caveat (well, griping), if we’re talking about genetic predisposition of a hypothetical Daenerys + Jon offspring, what about that old saying [paraphrasing] that whenever a Targaryen baby is born the gods flip a coin: If it comes up heads the baby will grow up to be a sensitive, intelligent leader; tails, and the baby gets the whacko gene.
Despite the wonderful qualities of Jon and Dany, what happens if they lose the coin flip and their offspring starts showing signs of becoming a malevolent lunatic?
Or, Cersei’s baby turns out to be the unJoffrey – – kind and good like Myrcella. Would the showrunners resort to the baby-switch twist with which GRRM is apparently enamored? [It’s my understanding that in the books
This is why I am SO anti-baby drama…
ACME,
Damn! You stole the thunder of my forthcoming Anti-Rhaegar rant (from the perspective of Jon Snow not being thrilled to learn about the exploits/idiocy of his real daddy, and the apparent selfishness of his mommy.)
ghost of winterfell,
“Even the Martells don’t seem too mad at Rhaegar…”
——————
On the show at least, Oberyn Martell wasn’t shy about bashing Rhaegar for being a philandering, selfish jackass:
Oberyn to Tyrion, S4e1:
“The last time I was in the capital was many years ago. Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon. My sister loved him. She bore his children. Swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn’t let the wet nurse touch them.
And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman. That started a war and the war ended right here when your father’s army took the city… and butchered those children. My nephew and niece. Carved them up and wrapped them in Lannister cloaks.”
There will both die or both live..They have similar lives,have make similar decisions,similar tragic love stories and similar magic powers and similar peoples to believe them as messiah ..Why not to have and similar fates[both living or both dying]?If one dies and the other lives ..that will not be bittersweet ..that will be just bittertragic
There will be 100% baby drama
agree..but she was already thinking ways to have Ned shut his mouth forever
Ten Bears,
Ten Bear..boy..A child being mad or an idiot in his adult life is not because of incest ..it depends in witch kind of parents had raised this child..Viserys and Geoffrey they have been raised from their own parents [the NK and Cercei] to act like psychos[Viserys from the MK in the first years of his life] and idiots[Geoffrey from his mom].If there all the childrens coming from incest are all to be mad or idiot adults..then that just is hilarious to think it..Rhaegar,Tommen and Myrcella who they had been childrens from incest ..they never developed mental issues ..such Viseris and Geoffrey..Rhaegar for example was polite,noble,good and smart..Tommen was naive ..but still a good and kind child..and Myrcella was kind and a very innocent and good girl..There are childrens like Ramsay and sweetshit Robbyn Arryn who they arent products of incest but they are batshit crazy [Ramsay]or idiot [Robbyn Arryn]..The mental issues that a child could develop in his adulthood they have nothing to do with incest ..but with how that child was raised by his parents ..If a child is raised like a spoiled brat[Geoffrey] or in abused psychologically and physically by his family [like Ramsay]then this child has more possibilities to be an adult with mental disorder ..That has nothing to do with incest ..as you think.
You know nothing about inbreeding, Artemisia.
ash,
“That being said we do want a romance, a Romeo and Juliet crossed lovers kind of thing, tragic but romantic all the same.”
________
This is one of the reasons I have been a “Cersei apologist” to some extent. (Well, also because I adore Lena Headey.) Cersei’s conversations with Ned and with Robert in S1 are illuminating in that:
• Unlike Lyanna, Cersei did what was expected of her and followed through with her arranged marriage to Robert (sold as a broodmare, as she later described it, would be more appropriate).
• Lyanna thought Robert was a manwhore who’d cheat on her; Cersei had to live through that humiliation for seventeen years.
• Cersei actually did care for Robert, and may not have turned into a bitter, brother-f**king woman had her husband made the slightest effort to make his marriage work. Instead, as he admitted to her, there was never a chance.
• It can’t be healthy for a young newlywed woman’s self-image to learn that her groom preferred a corpse over a live girl (her); and that he’d get sh*tfaced drunk on their wedding night and call her “Lyanna.”
• What would a shrink say about a man who’s intended bride dies or jilts him – yet even after a reasonable period of grieving her death, he can’t let go? Seventeen years? That cannot be normal.
• I think the consensus among readers and show watchers is that Robert was more “in love” with his own idealized image of Lyanna Stark, rather than the girl herself. Either that, or Lyanna was a means of actualizing his bromance with Ned. (I don’t know how it was handled in the books; on the show Robert said he couldn’t even remember what Lyanna looked like. How well did he actually know her? Did the books disclose how often he’d actually seen and talked to her?)
• Cersei was imbued with hate (for Tyrion) and a sense of superiority by a cold and distant father. I blame him for her nastiness. A five- or six year old girl doesn’t torture her infant brother and wish he were dead unless she learned that behavior and attitude from someone: Mr. Warmth, Tywin Lannister.
• My point (if I had one 😯) is that Lyanna’s short life is romanticized, while Cersei’s real life shows the consequences of being passed from a dirtbag father to a dirtbag husband. I wonder how Lyanna would’ve wound up after 17 years of a marriage filled with humiliation and disappointment? Cersei did what a good daughter was supposed to do, and is regarded as a villainess; Lyanna Stark acted like a bubble-headed groupie and betrayed her family and her fiancé – and yet she’s the star-crossed Juliet of the story?
Ten Bears,
Reason #483 that I loved Oberyn. Sigh. Such a waste. As a chronic migraine sufferer, I also empathize with feeling like my head is being crushed by a mountain 4-5 times a week….
I have absolutely zero investment in any main character’s offspring as being endgame, as I’ve said before. I may barf if that’s the ending we’re left with.
I see the KL set is taking shape, looks huge now.. although those new towers don’t look like southern style architecture to me.
https://twitter.com/a_red_priestess/status/962296593373417473
ash,
Knowing Cersei as good as we know her now, it’s hard to argue that she wanted Ned dead. But sure, she wanted him dead in a different, more stealth way: he would have been killed at the Wall or on his way to it, but I guess she would have arranged some accident or disease (poisoning), so that no-one could blame the Lannisters. She was still affraid of the northern rebelion by that time and probably still is, cause it really makes problems.
LadyGoodman,
Che,
Neither Jon, nor Dany needs a baby to be inspired to build a better world. Jon forsook the idea of fathering children in the very first episode and Dany accepted her barrenness by the end of the first season going on to give birth to the dragons. Both of them have replaced family with somethig else and were going on with that ever since. Only recently they began to rediscover family again, but, if any of them dies, their romance will remain just an episode like Ygritte or Drogo. Moreover, both of them proved to be capable of finding replacements for their lost lovers, and that would screem for an unwanted sequel. So, there is no other way: they have to die together or live together as responsible adults rasing their children and ruling their country.
And if that’s too sweet (personally, I don’t think that ruling and/or raising children is all that sweet), there are many ways to add bitterness. Tyrion’s heroic death could be one of them, though discovering something worth to die for would be also sweet for a selfish cynic he is. The same might be true for Sansa, who has always been a coward and still is. Bran and Arya may not die, but they may leave the world of the living (Gendry may die to give Arya the last push). And even if none of the main protagoninst dies and all of them find happy love they will have to build their lives on the ashes struggling with the repayments of the loans to the Iron Bank. So, there’s plenty of bitter already, though I bet there will be more. I just don’t feel that Jon&Dany dying would be the right kind of bitter: too cliché I would say, though if that happens, I’ll accept.
Artemisia,
“a child being mad or an idiot in his adult life is not because of incest ..it depends in witch kind of parents had raised this child..Viserys and Geoffrey they have been raised from their own parents [the NK and Cercei] to act like psychos[Viserys from the MK in the first years of his life] and idiots[Geoffrey from his mom].If there all the childrens coming from incest are all to be mad or idiot adults..then that just is hilarious to think…”
____________
Hey, don’t look at me. I didn’t make up the Targaryen coin-flip analogy. That’s canon. Whether it’s an inherited Targ trait, eg a recessive gene, or a consequence of inbreeding is a question for GRRM on one hand, and biologists on the other.
The nature vs. nurturing debate is still unsettled. However, mental illness does run in families. (So does alcoholism, but that’s another story, based on inherited brain chemistry.) It’s a scientifically proven fact that inbreeding through incest does multiply the chances of behavioral and physical abnormalities. Whether good parenting can overcome genetically programmed behavior is a complicated question I’m not qualified to answer.
In the world of GoT, I believe that Joffrey and Viserys were both genetically predisposed to be (– what was the in-universe scientific term?… oh yeah –) “vicious c*nts “
And I’ll be there right with you with my vomit bag.
Apollo,
I guess the filming in the KL set will happen in March. Someone from the crew hinted that Miguel Saposhnik will make them very busy then. I wonder how many spoiler photos we are going to get. The set is pretty well covered, so we’ll probably only see it burn. But it would be interesting to find out which actors will be in town during filming.
Ten Bears,
Pigeon,
8 years of politics, war, betrayal, death, murder, deceit, magic, monsters, manipulation… and the ending comes down to the two main characters (for the past 4 years, at least) meeting, tenuously falling in love, shagging and having a magic incest baby?
God, no. I’ll be weeping and vomiting.
Oh, and Cersei may or may not be having another incest baby. Out of the blue. For some reason.
Great.
I honestly don’t know what sort of mindset you would have to have been watching this show for 7 years with, to go into the final season excited about the prospect of a load of baby drama stinking up the (abridged) conclusion.
The biggest and, as far as I’m concerned, only baby drama that this show/story needed was resolved once and for all in the Season 6 finale.
Jon’s a Targaryen. Boom. Done. Let’s have some personal and political fallout from that revelation, beat the bad guys, then resolve the status of the realm.
The End.
Now, maybe this is all part of GRRM’s plan and he’s going to spend a few thousand pages spelling it all out in great detail. On the show, however, we have 6-9 hours of screen time left. Jon and Dany’s non-romance that they clumsily shoehorned into 5 episodes last season was bad enough. The prospect of a load of baby drama clogging up the final 6 episodes and sidelining the other characters and aspects of the show fills me with dread.
Gwidhiel,
Very nice of you to say. Cheers 😉
I could never steal your thunder, Ten Bears. I am merely the opening movement to your symphony, the amuse-bouche to your seventeen-course meal. Thunder away ! ^^
In those instances, I suppose my visceral dislike of Romeo and Juliet (both the characters and the play) is a blessing in disguise…
So, if the solution to all of Westeros’s problems turns out to be a Targaryen baby, Ten Bears, Pigeon, Ramsay’s 20th Good Man and myself will all be crying and puking in unison… That finale might morph into a veritable smorgasbord of bodily fluids !
That is an excellent point.
I suppose Rhaegar and Lyanna are shielded from blame because, to put it bluntly, they are dead. Hating them or even merely holding them accountable now would be quite useless, especially considering that, in Westeros, the characters have bigger, and very much living, fish to fry.
The Martells have little time and energy to dedicate to Rhaegar when the Mountain, Tywin and Cersei still roam the Earth. Jaime is too consumed by his own guilt and journey to reexamine Rhaegar’s behaviour. As for Ned, he thinks that the Starks are the most wonderful people to have ever drawn breath so I am not entirely surprised he would not think badly of his sister, especially after her death.
That being said, you are completely right. The story is told in POV form and, as such, we are tied to thenarrators’ perceptions. Since they do not focus their anger or resentment on Rhaegar and Lyanna, we tend not to either.
Concise and to the bloody point ! 😀
I thought the exact same thing except that, instead of “dumbarses”, I had another expletive in mind. Something that rhymes with “clucking bricks”…
Ten Bears,
I guess the coin-flip rule is true to any child. Genes play a role but except of the cases when they cause a definite mental or other disease they simply define temper. If you take GoT, none of it’s characters had any mental problems (only Sweetrobin is desribed as an autist and only in the books). Joffrey was simply spoiled and tried to play a tough guy by indulging into cruelity. Viserys was pretty much the same. Both of them were frustrated by their formal entitlement on one hand and actual realisation that entitlement means nothing. Ramsay turned into a sadist because of his fathers abusive attitude, etc. On the other hand, Tyrion or Dany who were abused even more managed to find a positive escape and so did Jon whose life wasn’t easy, too. Even the Mad King whose paranoia indeed crossed the line sucumbed to it mostly because of the challenges of ruling and mistakes he made.
IMO, that’s the point of the whole story: those who indulge into self-pity, blaming others and hating the cruel world eventually cross the line of madness (and get themselves killed as mad dogs). Those who choose to make the world a better place also die, but at least they preserve their mental health.
Inga,
And make the world a better place, at least in their small corner of it.
From A Game of Thrones when Robert wants to fight in the Hand’s Tourney and Cersei has forbidden him:
The mirth curdled on Robert’s face. “The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She’s sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that.”
“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.”
The only recorded meeting we know of is the Harrenhal Tourney, though Lyanna seems to have known of Robert’s reputation as a whore-monger:
“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”
It is never made clear whether Robert and Lyanna met at this time, or if her father agreed to the match on the basis of Robert’s position as Lord of Storm’s End – perhaps with Ned acting as intermediary.
I think Lyanna’s death meant Robert’s idealization of her continued for the remainder of his life because she wasn’t there to disappoint him. He saw a beautiful girl and imagined a life with her. When she died, and he was persuaded to marry Cersei by Jon Arryn, any problem with Cersei would lead him to think of how different it would have been had Lyanna been in Cersei’s place.
Robert, in my opinion, wasn’t in love with Lyanna as much as he was in love with both the idea of her and the idea of being Ned’s brother by marriage. He sees Lyanna as a possession taken from him by Rhaegar rather than a person with her own will and desires.
And yes, I think that in-story there is a tendency (as much as I love them) to deflect blame for the war and what happened from Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think it reflects the reality that when a person close to us dies, we tend to focus on their successes rather than their failures; their good points rather than their faults.
Pigeon,
“Reason #483 that I loved Oberyn. Sigh…”
_____________
Now that you mention Oberyn…. My #2 Reason is that he appears in the Top Ten of so many of my “All-Time Best/Favorite” Lists*, including:
• Best Episode: S4e7, “Mockingbird” [#1 all-time]
• Most Emotionally Evocative Moment (“the feels”): Visiting Tyrion in his cell, and after recounting meeting Tyrion when was he was just a baby, announcing: “I will be your champion.” That moment, from S4e7, still gets to me every time. [#6 all-time]
• Best Speech: Same scene; telling Tyrion about visiting Casterly Rock and looking forward to seeing “the freak” – that turned out to be “just a baby”; describing his yearning for justice; and then of course finishing with “I will be your champion” as Tyrion almost cries with gratitude/relief. [#5 all-time]
• Best Entrance/Introduction (of new character): The Red Viper of Dorne – the hedonist at the brothel – lived up to his hype. Bonus points for the “F**ck yes of course I’m bi: twice the pleasure” attitude. [#3 all-time]
* Because when I’m sitting in the dentist’s chair or waiting on a checkout line, what better way to pass the time than rewatching scenes and making “best of” lists.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
good observations! The guard to the left of the window, appears to have a female shape, look at the waist compared to the guard on the right of the window.
The guard to the left of the window, appears to have a female shape, look at the waist compared to the guard on the right of the window.
Hells, I love and miss Oberyn! He is a huge part of the reason Two Swords is my favorite season premiere (the others are the Arya/Sandor chicken scene and Jon’s reaction to the Red Wedding plus Maester Aemon’s I grew up in King’s Landing line – and the scene in which Tyrion, Bronn & Pod wait to greet the Dornish).
Ah, Oberyn……..
Alba Stark,
Testing. 8:45 pm. (Prior replies have disappeared into Alphabet Heaven.)
Ten Bears,
I believe that nature/nurture iis a false dichotomy, there are too many variables that makes it difficult if not impossilbe to point to one or the other as the cause of our individual traits. I don’t think DNA is static – I think there is a range within each traits, that raises or lowers depending on nurture. Take an infant born with Down’s Syndrome. Access to early intervention, family education, availablity of resources and the means to pay for them will all affect just how disabled that person will be. Ive seen kids with DS grow to be high functioning adults, and seen some that require constant care. (But then again, Ive seen parents who are doing everything ‘right’ that still results in a child with a significant disability so I might be totally out to lunch)
I know from personal experience that bad parenting does not nec result in a unstable child , or good parenting a guarantee of well adjusted child. What we do know is that a child born of incest parents have a higher chance of having some sort of disabilty than other children. There is a reason this age old taboo exists. I suspect that the % chance rises of falls depending on the closeness of relationship if the couple are siblings, versus aunt/nephew, but the chance is still there.
Just FYI – the term ‘idiot’ has not been used in decades to describe a persons ability to learn. ‘ You might want to rephrase that differently.Just sayin
ash,
Oh my, rereading that, its as bad as using idiot. Let me try that again:
Access to early intervention, family education, availbility of resources and the meants to pay for them will all affect just how that child will develop.
Sorry about that Inga, my face is very red, but then its rather late, time for bed before I make any more faux pas
ash,
“I believe that nature/nurture iis a false dichotomy, there are too many variables that makes it difficult if not impossilbe to point to one or the other as the cause of our individual traits. I don’t think DNA is static – I think there is a range within each traits, that raises or lowers depending on nurture…”
———-
I think we’re on the same page here. I didn’t mean to convey that nature and nurture is a dichotomy, false or otherwise. There are so many variables – and probably a host of external factors and just (good or bad) “luck” that mold an individual. I look at genetics as affecting susceptibility and predispositions, that can be triggered – or suppressed.
(At the risk of going too far off-topic…have you seen the comedy “Trading Places” with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy? I think the premise of the movie was that two rich a**holes made a $1 bet over the nature vs. nurture debate. I forget the details, but they disagreed whether a series of misfortunes would cause a well-bred, well-educated executive to become a lowlife criminal; and at the same time. whether a petty criminal, given enough advantages and support, could become a successful executive.)
Anyway, back to GoT: I still think that Targaryen inbreeding through incest drastically increased the chances that their offspring would suffer from inherited behavioral abnormalities. That’s the price they paid for wanting to perpetuate the silly silver hair, or whatever the reason was.
Ummmm can I join this club? I think the pregnancy thing is a gross obsession among fans. It’s become one big baby shower planning session.
But to humor the idea and put a GRRM™ spin on things, I think Dany might have a phantom pregnancy like Mary I, and her assumption will dictate her decisions and end up ruining her chances at the throne. Or, she’ll have another stillborn like Rhaenyra from the first Dance, which also was avuncular incest. She learned how her own brother betrayed her and stole her crown, and the stress caused a miscarriage. Um, Jon… anyone? Sign me up for that!
Ten Bears,
Alba Stark,
Sigh….I wish he hadn’t made his one stupid move such a permanent one.
Yes, Oberyn in the dungeon with Tyrion, torch aloft, being all magnificent and stuff (his first scene with Peter, nonetheless). I like to imagine Dorne began and ended with him. Gods I love Pedro Pascal.
ash,
The nature/nurture debate is being turned on its head by the discovery of epi-genetics – where the lifestyle choices of a child’s parents/grandparents has the ability to switch off or on certain genes within their own genome. For instance, you might be less at risk from heart disease because your grandfather exercised. It’s mind-boggling really.
In terms of incest, I believe this causes more mutations within DNA (or more chance of inheriting mutated genes if both parents have the same mutation due to the fact that they are related), which is what leads to disability or psychological conditions. In the case of the Targaryens, with their long history of incest, if they have genes that have become faulty or mutated, which lead to their ‘madness’, then each time a new generation breeds through incest, they increase the chance of those genes being passed on. Jon will obviously have a healthier genome than Dany in that his mother was a Stark, whereas Dany’s parents were both Targaryens.
You are very right though that it isn’t as simple as genetically inheriting a disability as you rightly point out that early intervention can make an enormous amount of difference to that child reaching their full potential. My eldest child is autistic and due to the fact that we knew from a a very early age and were able to get a diagnosis for him when he just turned two opened up a huge realm of therapies and interventions that are enabling him to cope with the sensory overload that would be crippling for him otherwise.
Sorry to go totally off-topic, but as the parent of an autistic child and someone fascinated by biology/genetics, I had to weigh in here!
While I can certainly understand why some people are grossed out by Jon and his aunt falling in love, I’m not grossed out by it. My reasoning is, first, I don’t think of it as incest. To me, incest would be a sister and a brother, or a parent and a child. But once we get into the realm of cousins or aunts & uncles, there are many examples in History of that kind of arrangement. Second, it’s not as if Dany & Jon were raised together and knew one another all their lives. They were complete strangers to one another with vastly different life experiences, each of them inhabiting a totally separate world, so the level of familiarity and the traditional structures of society were not a part of the way they reacted to one another when they met.
Che,
Oh, my son is a borderline autist, too, so I get what you mean. But in general every child (or adult) has some “disabilities” or weeknesses as well as strengths. That’s nature. Meanwhile, nurture and further individual development is all about mitigating/compensating those inborn disabilities with inborn strengths. One can also say it’s about morals and values regulating social behavior. And the most unexeptable forms of social behavior like extreme selfishness resulting in cruelty or sadism is the result of nurture rather than of some genes.
As for incest, it does result in bad combinations of genes, but it’s also the result of insufficiant social skills, especially in GRRM’s world. Take Cersei. She is raised on the idea that everyone is an enemy, her circle of potiential friends is very narrow, so she’s not able to develop emotional bonds with anyone but her twin brother, though eventually even that cracked. Targarians could have had the same problem: despite of their long reign they failed to integrate into Westeros and Dany is still seen as a foreign invader with no ties to the country (though I guess it’s more show, than books).
IMO, incest became a taboo primarily because of social reasons: people need to go outside their families, develop positive relationships with strangers. It’s not only about broadening the pool of genes, but also about broadening the pool of experiences and perspectives, and the overall view. And people with a broader view are more emphatic and therefore have better social skills, which benefits both the community and the individual. Love to Ygritte gave Jon an impetus to integrate the wildlings into the realms of men; Dany’s love to Jon gave her an impetus to realise the challege of the great war, etc. And Cersei’s lack or rather total absence of social skills is now posing threat to Westeros as a whole. So, it all goes donw to these simple but fundamental things, which are more an issue of nurture than nature.
Yet, she was perfectly fine with Rhaegar cheating on his wife with her…
To add to Alba Stark‘s great answer, I, a non shrink who knows nothing (so grain of salt at the ready), would also say that Robert was spoilt to such an unspeakable degree that dissatisfaction was an unknown feeling to him.
As far as we know, young Robert was absolutely gorgeous, strong, sporty, charismatic, warm and funny. He was a womaniser because the ladies loved him; they all threw themselves at him. This general benevolence extended to his “foster” father Jon Arryn who was remarkably lax with him, forgiving him all his transgressions and bouts of bad behaviour. To put it simply : what Robert wanted, Robert always got. Be it from his friends or from women. Until Lyanna.
He wanted her and she was “taken away” from him, or so he believed. Someone stole his stuff ! The frustration Lyanna’s disappearance bred was an entirely alien feeling to Robert. For the very first time in his life, the world was unfair to the eldest Baratheon and he was incapable of forgetting or forgiving it.
Furthermore, we cannot dismiss the fact that obsessing over Lyanna afforded Robert an escape from his own responsibiliy. He was aware he was a terrible king, a terrible brother, a terrible husband and a terrible father. He knew that his sole claim to fame was his Rebellion and that, aside from that, his life was littered with failures. Perpetually weeping over Lyanna allowed him to make himself believe that said failures were merely the byproduct of her absence : if Lyanna had been my queen, I would have been a wonderful king; if Lyanna had been my wife, I would have been a tremendous husband; if Lyanna had been my children’s mother, I would have been a superb father… None of that is true, of course, because Robert’s failures were the consequences of his limited abilities but he found comfort in deflecting all the blame away from himself and onto Cersei and Rhaegar.
That is a truly excellent point ! One that brings me back to a question I often ask myself : how can girls/women in Westeros still respect their father ?
Westerosi fathers, especially highborn ones, treat their daughters like cattle. They sell and exchange them without any regard for their feelings or preferences. Yet, more often than not, daughters are portrayed as unambiguously loyal to their fathers (contrarily to sons who are often more conflicted about their dads). Why ?
Cersei, Catelyn and even Arya… Cersei was sold off twice by Tywin; Catelyn was mechanically passed from Stark brother to Stark brother by Hoster and even witnessed him tricking Lysa into an abortion so he could turn her into a glorified child bride for a decrepit man she loathed; Arya knew Ned had arranged Sansa’s marriage without her consent and later saw how he easily dismissed his elder daughter’s (terribly misguided) wishes to stay with Joffrey with a “Don’t worry honey, I’ll find someone I like for you to marry” (I am paraphrasing).
I understand them loving their father; love, especially within the context of a family, is a profoundly visceral and, to a degree, irrational feeling. What I fail to grasp is the daughters’ “my daddy could do no wrong” hero-worship, their seeming inability to accept how little their father respected their daughters, how little their opinions truly mattered to them.
That is an excellent question but I think we do not even have to project that far into the hypothetical future… What if the Targaryens had won the war and Lyanna had not died in childbirth ? She would have spent the rest of her days between a mad father-in-law who had butchered her brother and father and a husband who at least participated in the killing of one of her other brothers ar the Trident. And she would have attempted absolutely nothing to prevent any of it. Our heroine, ladies and gentlemen !
It is slightly more chaotic than that, I believe.
Another Stark once “acted like a bubble-headed groupie and betrayed her family”. Admittedly, she was only 12 to Lyanna’s 16 or 17. And the royal boyfriend she betrayed her family for was initially imposed upon her by the pater familias. And she tried everything she could think of to fix her mistake once she realised her father was in danger. And she suffered years of abuse as a result of her act of selfishness. Yet, she still gets called a villainess on a regular basis.
You are right to state that entitlement played an immense part in the development of Joffrey and Viserys’s cruelty. Yet, we cannot dismiss the importance of fear and desperation.
The untold tragedy of Viserys and Joffrey is that they were too self-aware for their, and everyone else’s, own good. Deep down, they knew they were not fit for the task. They knew they could never live up to whatever fantasy they had of their family and themselves. Joffrey knew he could never be as physically imposing or “heroic” as his father; Viserys knew there was no Westerosi support for a Targaryen restoration.
They knew and they lived in gut-wrenching terror of anyone else finding out and calling them out on it.
I believe Ramsay was more than abused : he was trained. Roose molded him into the perfect “attack dog” by teaching him (“Aim for their head”), starving him of love, affection and acknowledgment, dangling the promise of legitimisation in front of him… Even Ramsay’s decision to rape Sansa can be traced back to Roose’s treatment of his son’s own mother, the miller’s wife. Ramsay followed his father’s instructions in regards to “creating” a Bolton heir : the violation of a woman witnessed by a man powerless to stop it.
Ramsay was engineered to become a monster.
Conversely, Viserys’s emotional violence and sexual abuse by proxy against Daenerys, as appalling as it was to us, modern viewers, was nothing out of the social and cultural norms most of the characters live by. Tyrion was unquestionably ostracised and grossly mistreated by most of his family members but still benefited without restriction from all the perks associated with the Lannister legacy. As for Jon, his upbringing was pretty marvelous ! Aside from Catelyn’s and, to a lesser extent, Sansa’s coldness towards him, which never crossed the line to abuse, he was loved and respected by everyone in Winterfell.
Roz’s Ghost,
Yes, as a medieval historian I am also used to marriages between the second or third level relatives, which were deemed incestuous but were dispensed, nonetheless. So, I see nothing wrong in Dany & Jon; I just want them to get properly married ASAP.
ACME,
I agree with almost anything you have written, exept of Robert. True, he was far from perfect, but there was no man – and no love – that could ever mend Cersei. Take Jaime: he loves his sister wholeheartedly, he did unspeakable things for that love from incest to murder, and all he gets is endless intimidation and accusations. So, Robert could have been a saint, the marriage wouldn’t have worked anyway.
Now, when it comes to arranged marriages, IMO most of the fathers in GoT or even in real world simply think that they know better and sometimes they do. Take Hosner Tully who was supposed to be one of a few good fathers in the story. He arranged Catelyne’s marriage to the Starks, most probably, because he knew that the Stark boys – be it Brandon or Ned – are good. IMO, he married Lysa to Jon Arryn for the same reason. Let’s be frank: the boy of her own choice – Littlefinger – was a bad choice not only because of his low birth and we all hnow how it ended, when Lysa married him at last. I guess, Lyanna’s father was also full of best intentions: he find his daughter a guy full of positive qualities, and probably never got it why she couldn’t love him. Other fathers, like Tywin, were less sensible, and more concerned about their own personal bendfits, but even they saugh to find good husbands for their daughters, so most of those complains concerning being sold like a brood mare sound rather false to me, especially, when they come out of Dany’s mouth:)
Speaking of which, the issue of emotional insecurity should be addressed as well, because IMO Dany has the same problem as her brother of Joffrey for that matter. She feels insecure. She finds some strength and thus security in her ability to hatch the dragons and other victories, she tries to earn love, but every time shit happens she overreacts. She learns that Jorah betrayed her long time ago, when he barely new her, and he sends him away – twice. Tyrion starts to discuss succession issues, and she stats shaking. She can’t tolerate even a minor conflict, because even a minor conflict looks like an end of the world to her. Jon is going to have a hard life:) I just hope that Catelyn prepared him for this ordeal.
ramses,
And in the books Cersei kills/forces a miscarriage on all children in her womb before she starts showing she believes are Robert’s and only gives birth to Jamie’s. She never gave birth to a dark haired child in the books, the show created that to make her more sympathetic so there is no way Gendry is her child especially considering ShowGendry is the fusion of two book characters BookGendry and BookEdric two of Robert’s bastards.
Ten Bears,
One of my fav all time movies, and yes the two rich a**holes got what was coming to them (as did the ‘deep throat’ guy in the gorilla suit. I still laugh so hard I wet my pants just thinking about that scene )
Che,
The new gene research is just fascinating, and is indeed turning old ideas on their heads.
(off topic but how is your kiddo doing now?)
Inga,
Not sure I agree here – as I said above, you really can’t separate the two. I think there is no question that we pass on our genes to our children in detrimental ways (see alcholism, bi polar disorder, anger issues) but then nuture has the ability to keep them in check, and helps a person better handle what they have been dealt with
Definition of incest is probably dictated by the society one grows up in. Several of my family members who lived in the Ukraine pre WWII married cousins; that was just not an issue. Other places would frown on any adult child interation (which is why people get squeamish over dany and john) But in this case this aunt and this nephew are definitely adults, so while there are still genetic issues, I think its easier to be morally ok with this since they are adults. However, I have asked myself more than once, if the tables were turned, and it was an Uncle with a Niece, would I feel differently about this?
“One of the most famous examples of a genetic trait aggravated by royal family intermarriage was the House of Habsburg, which inmarried particularly often and is known for the mandibular prognathism of the Habsburger (Unter) Lippe (otherwise known as the ‘Habsburg jaw’, ‘Habsburg lip’ or ‘Austrian lip'”). This was typical for many Habsburg relatives over a period of six centuries.[70] The condition progressed through the generations to the point that the last of the Spanish Habsburgs, Charles II of Spain, could not properly chew his food.[71] Besides the jaw deformity, Charles II also had a huge number of other genetic physical, intellectual, sexual, and emotional problems. It is speculated that the simultaneous occurrence in Charles II of two different genetic disorders (combined pituitary hormone deficiency and distal renal tubular acidosis) could explain most of the complex clinical profile of this king, including his impotence/infertility, which led to the extinction of the dynasty.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding#Humans
I have no moral problem with aunt x nephew in this case (there is one step less compared to cousin x cousin) and there is always a risk for a child born out of this combination.
The moral aspect ist human made, because mankind learnt, that no blessing lies on health and progress in inbreeding for generations and generations.
But this is only thinking about, one way to manage this long (wet) winter until the last season will start.
goodness, what a mountain of excellent comments on coin-flip. also, on Rhaegar and Lyanna being responsible for shit to hit the fan in a way. i can’t open directly to any of them by quoting so i’ll just add my two cents sorted by topics.
1) incest: Jon bangs his aunt. so what? they are both adult persons, there’s nothing abusive or violent in there behaviour, so i never got why anyone was upset or repelled by it.
here in switzerland, there are serious thoughts around of decriminalizing incest as long as it is not abusive, and i think that is just alright. we love whom we love, so as long as incest is not profiting from one person being dependent or too young, there’s nothing wrong with it. in other words: it’s ok to fuck your cousin, but stop staring at your kid’s butt! even if your kid is adult, mister! president!, because even then it’s a a relationship defined by dependence. especially in this one case!
what is definitely a no-go and and the end of my tolerance for incest:
2) incest children. here in you-know and most probably in every rural environment with thin population, there’s the bad word of “people with very round heads, very small eyes and genetic modesty – who happen to be your employer.” you see: i’m talking of farms. of two or three farms, each 20 minutes of walking from each other, and the next farms from there are not closer. just add some hills as natural barriers, and maybe some ecological dependencies like debts or heritage arguments, and you have a wheel of marriages among three families spinning. for generations.
three farms in one valley, and no foreign gene is added for decades, if not even for centuries. once there was a chance to refresh the gene pool, someone preferred a banjo to the daughter from the valley beyond the hills…
here in you-know, i’ve been living together with some old ladies who came from the environment i just described. a nice place in the country, two houses and a farm, and professional staff taking care of the ladies. they were sent away by their farmer families when it was clear they could not even be used (sic!) for milking the cows.
the place had rooms left, so i found myself with five old ladies from 53 to 89, all of them mentally handicapped. i stayed with them for five years, and these were the most challenging and richest years of my life. because christ-on-a-bike, did these ladies surprise me one time after another!!! this time really helped me becoming less of an asshole, in a way.
the youngest of the girls was a downie. 53 when i moved in with 39, and when i became 41, she had a birthday present for me. she had written a card for me. sounds unspectacular? she had started to learn reading and writing just the damn year before!! and there were less typos in her text than in some stuff we get to read on the internet these days.
53 is a biblical age for people with DS, by the way.
the surprise was topped on august 1st, 2011. six weeks before my 43rd. by the then 93 year old.
that day is the national holiday of cheesistan, and of course the girls and the staff celebrated it a bit. one would expect them to sing the national anthem on this occasion, but what i got to hear from my window was a song related to german history of the 19th century: “die gedanken sind frei” (“thoughts are free”), intonated by the 93 year old with her voice that could never hit the tone.
i was completely destroyed and close to tears. i’ll try to give you a bit of the lyrics in english, without taking care of rhyme or shit: “thoughts are free / who can guess them / they fly by / like nightly shadows // no man can know them / no hunter can shoot them / this will always be / thoughts are free”.
where did i come from? coin-flip, nature/nurture? these were my two trucks full of cents. forgive if i just leave them standing in the no-parking, but thinking about the old girls made me lose the actual point completely. except for this:
3) @Inga, @Che
i bend the knee to you.
Chicken Generated Image,
Thanks:)
Yes, I see that. I’m old enough to remember when we weren’t allowed to discuss “leaks” here.
MeeraReed,
Right. There’s been a lot of “I read on fan site X that anonymous Joe Username says that an unnamed source heard from someone that A, B, and C will happen to Character Z.”
WotW has established its reliability and credibility. It protects us from alleged “leaks” and warns us against possible spoilers, eg activity at filming locations.
Comments containing unsourced third- and fourth-hand “spoilers” from some nameless clown on another site are as worthwhile as Elvis sightings. Worse, they spawn lenthhy “discussions” in which participants start to assume that the fallacious nonsense is an established fact.
– Rant Over –
MeeraReed,
Oh hey, just so there’s no confusion: my previous comment/diatribe was NOT directed at you. I take it that we’re both averse to “leaks”, bogus or otherwise.
In your 2/9/18, 1:34 pm comment, you asked rhetorically:
“Are other spoilers, leaks, and fake leaks now openly discussed?”
No, they are not. And I’m sure you’d agree it’s unfair to the administrators/moderators to expect them to police every comment instantaneously.
Ten Bears,
I believe the Targaryens originally married within the family to have better control over dragons in Old Valyria. However, in a World of Ice and Fire, there is an instance described when a random girl was able to tame a dragon simply by feeding it every day so maintaining a pure blood line isn’t really necessary.
Also I’m loving this discussion about the madness behind Targaryens. TIN FOIL TIME! I’m actually convinced that Aerys was given basilisk blood in order to either a. create his madness or b. exacerbate his madness.
In A Feast for Crows Arya/Cat of the Canals is learning her poisons from the waif and 3 are described in detail: 1. Sweet Sleep; 2. Tears of Lys; and 3. Basilisk Blood. In other POVs within the same book, we see Sansa/Alayne give Robin sweet sleep to calm his fits and the Maester at the Vale is adamant about not giving him too much (because it could kill him). Then, obviously, Joffrey is poisoned with Tears of Lys at his wedding. I didn’t understand the significance of having Basilisk blood described until the very end of AFfC.
‘This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men,’ – The waif to Arya
In the last POV of AFfC, Samwell, Maester Marwyn is telling Sam how it was better that Maester Aemon ended up dying en route to the Citadel because the “grey sheep may have killed him.”
“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”
Anyways, where’s JoeMagician when you need him? His next article should be about the politics of the Citadel 😂
Dark Sister,
EDIT: Joffrey was poisoned in ASoS, but I stand by my tinfoil lol
Ten Bears,
Seconded.
I wouldn’t mind an ending where Dany is pregnant and on the throne (because assuring us that she can have kids is a way of assuring us that Westeros is not going to continue in the kind of successional turmoil it’s endured for the past 8 years….) but if season 8 turns into a pregnancy drama, it’s going to suck.
The only other possible reason to have a Targaryen incest baby involved in the final act is the remote, tinfoil possibility that there is some link/tradeoff between dragon existence and Targaryen fetuses. Daenerys’ miscarriage may have paid for the hatching of the dragons; Rhaegar’s mother was involved in some sort of ritual at Summerhall while she was pregnant with Rhaegar, but instead of hatching dragons they ended up accidentally killing King Aegon, his wife, and a bunch of other people as Rhaegar was born. I’ve always wondered about this – what if you need to sacrifice a Targaryen infant to make a dragon, as you apparently need incest babies to make White Walkers? And let’s not forget Melisandre’s obsession with chucking small children with royal blood into bonfires – where did that idea come from? Some old Valyrian custom related to dragon creation?
A very small part of me worries that maybe there will be another child sacrifice in a final act where they need to do some sort of horrible magical thing to end the Walkers – but I think it’s more likely that the dragons die as the price of returning Dany’s fertility. Or something.
Anyway, I really just want to join the “If a magic baby is the resolution of this story I will consider the last eight years of investment in this story wasted” club.
+1
These photos were taken by the local press in Dubrovnik. There is no hint of HBO objection, much less a “leak” lawsuit, against them.
They may well have been deliberately *staged* as “window dressing” to hype S8 and provoke the very speculations that they have indeed provoked.
This strategy is m-u-c-h more affordable (and realistic) than actually producing multiple endings as reported earlier.
Logistically, filming of non-consecutive scenes in KL/Dubrovnik is efficient and may span more than one episode: E4, E5 and maybe even E6.
Fierce as a Wolverine,
VERY interesting thoughts!!! Thank you for sharing them. 🙂
Fierce as a Wolverine,
Gwidhiel,
Are you willing to barf ? If so, you are welcome to join the club. 😉
That sounds like a bloody good theory actually. I genuinely like it.
I think the dragon part of the equation works remarkably well within the confines of the show. It matches the preexisting lore and has a certain poetry to it : Daenerys must lose her “children” in order to have children.
As far as the White Walkers are concerned, your theory would certainly fit the books quite nicely but not necessarily the TV series, I fear.
One of Bran’s visions was entirely dedicated to showing us how the Night King was created. Now, narratively speaking, that scene was pretty pointless : in and of itself, knowing that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers to kill humans does not really add anything to the proceedings since a) we (and the characters) already knew the White Walkers are pretty good at defeating humans and b) the Children of the Forest died out shortly after the revelation so they never got the chance to rectify their mistake. The scene’s only purpose, as far as I can tell, was to inform Bran/the audience that the Night King seemingly takes his power from the huge chunk of obsidian lodged in his heart.
If we articulate this notion to the fact that, one season later, the show made a point of telling us that killing a White Walker also kills all of his “creatures”, what we get is a fairly straightforward “destroy the mothership” structure : taking the obsidian out of the Night King’s heart = killing him = getting rid of all his minions.
It may not be the most original of narratives but, with a few bells and whistles, it can be satisfying.
Now, that was the pragmatic way to look at things. From a more theoretical standpoint, the question of incest and how it relates to magic in the universe of Game of Thrones is a fascinating one.
In regard to Craster in particular, I do wonder whether the Night King chose to use babies born of incest because they are the only ones who can be transformed into White Walkers or simply because babies born of incest were readily available in the area. Obviously, this brings us to the question the show has never addressed when it comes to Craster : how did he manage to make a deal with the Night King in the first place ? Did he have a “conversation” with him ? If so, how ? Did Craster only give him the boys because that is what the Night King specifically wanted/needed for his purpose or because Gilly’s father needed to keep around the girls to make more babies ?
Broadly speaking, when it comes to magic in Game of Thrones, be it incest-related or not, it is extremely hard to tell the essential from the contingent from the downright unnecessary. Melisandre used to insist that king’s blood was indispensable for her Lord of Light-related spells and we tend to take her word for it. However, we have no real way to verify her assertion and, quite frankly, neither does she. Would any human blood work ? Is blood/death even truly necessary or is it just folklore? After all, Thoros of Myr managed to bring Beric back to life several times without any blood, king’s or otherwise, being sacrificed.
It is all so very confusing… ^^
Gwidhiel,
I had written an in-depth discussion of the “complete and total Barf-O-Rama” scene from the movie “Stand by Me”, but it disappears every time I try to post it.
Please no ending with Dany sat on the Iron throne unless it’s queen regent to Jon but even then I still wouldn’t like that as I don’t enjoy her character. That said, the idea of a magic baby is worse in my eyes!
ACME,
I quite dislike barfing but fear that will be inevitable if the story is resolved with a magical Targ-baby-restoration.
Also, I’ve been wondering about the WW and Craster along the same lines as you laid out above: is incest important or just circumstantial to the WW recruitment strategy?
Ten Bears,
Tell your computer to stop censoring your brilliance! And here’s a tinfoil hat idea (I’m traveling for work with only my work laptop and I don’t know shortcuts for icons in Firefox for Windows): I’m in Camp Unconvinced about whether Dany will fall pregnant, but if she did what would happen to the fetus if she were killed by the WW and raised by the NK? What a nasty, dreadful twist that would be.
As soon as the NK burned down the wall the military strategy has to change. Jon is headed north with the belief he has a Wall and 2 dragons vs the NK/the Army of the Dead. As soon as he arrives to WF those plans will be tossed out. No wall, plus a dragon, Jon/Tyrion will sacrifice Winterfell and flee towards Kings Landing. Forcing Cersei into the fight.
The other Alternative is to flee to Casterly Rock which has the sea to protect their backs.
The other crazy military strategy I have been thinking about are the Dothraki. They are reckless and do not fear death. The problem with this is if they die and are resurrected then they become a huge problem.
But regardless there will only be destruction in WF.
ACME,
I also hate barfing but if that’s the price of admission to the “no magic baby!” club, I’ll pay it.
Yeah, I agree with your thoughts about the confusion with the incest and fire magic aspects of the narrative. I think this all stems from GRRM’s vagueness (perhaps even with himself) about how the system of magic works – which is fine, because it gives us a lot to talk about.
I agree too that getting that piece of obsidian out of the Night King’s chest is going to be a key point in the ending of the show. I do have a bit of a problem separating the theories I developed while reading the books from what is considered canon within the show universe, but I hope we at least get some insight into the meta-story of how and why the dragons were created and what’s up with their relationship to the creation of the WWs. And I’m also convinced that the end of the dragons is one of the bitter elements in the bittersweet formula.
Good point about GRRM’s vagueness about how the magic works. I think one could make the case that, since he does seem to make multiple connections (however ill-defined) between magic and incest that there’s something there. But he might never flesh it out in the books, and I don’t think the show will in its remaining time.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I noticed Cersei doesn’t wear her crown in those scenes. Pretty sure she always wore her crown in presence of Westeros leaders before.
anthony jordan,
how do you know?
GeraltOfRivia,
I think it was Alt Shift X on YouTube that said one of the theories involved Cersei kidnapping Sansa from WF by the GC and JS has to go to KL to negotiate her release…
I read a leaked script (same source as the one that proved v accurate for season 7) of season 8 and it concluded that pretty much everyone dies, including JS and DT; their baby is raised by TL who gets it on with Missandei and they rule KL, SS gets it on with Gendry and rule WF, AS heads back to JH and the FM. CL is murdered by EG. JS is killed when him / his dragon are in the dragon pit and the heat from the dragon ignites the Wildfire underneath. Pretty crappy ending. Fingers crossed it’s not right!
Fake scene I guess eh. Even if she miraculously survived, Cersei is wearing her outfit that would have been lost in the destruction. Nutter’s episodes are done, the Mountain is presumably destroyed…