Watch two deleted scenes from Game of Thrones Season 4

The Game of Thrones Season 4 Blu-ray and DVD box sets officially release in just over a week on February 17th, but the two deleted scenes exclusive to them have already leaked.

The first was cut from episode 402: “The Lion and the Rose”.

The second was cut from episode 408: “The Mountain and the Viper”.

What’s helpful in viewing these particular uploads is that we can see which scenes precede the cut material, giving us a better understanding of their placement within the episodes.

Thoughts on the scenes? If you haven’t already, make sure to check out our review of the Season 4 box set.

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  1. I’m glad they’ve cut these scenes.

    The first one for Sibel Kekilli’s really bad acting.
    The second one for the horrendous special effect.

  2. Berto,

    Wonder why she didn’t nominate herself for best supporting actress this year. She nominated herself for the previous seasons.

  3. Both scenes were quite bad.. I understand why they cut them. I liked the season 3 ones more.

    But I sometimes think that these ‘deleted scenes’ aren’t just deleted scenes but mostly shot to have something exclusive on the DVD’s. Some get cut because they are bad, but I think some good ones are just shot for the DVD. As the thing with ‘time constraints’ really isn’t an issue.. Episodes already vary in length half of the time and a good scene extra will not make the episode any less exciting.

  4. Ok so personally I think thisi s bullshit. Firstly, in the first scene, Daenerys uses Ygritte’s line (at the end), so it felt really like a copy. The scene had a beautiful set, but it seemed pointless (why was there no more dialogue?). Bronn’s scene was fine, he had a cool speech, but ultimately it felt awkward to me (mostly because I’m not a fan of Shae’s actor).

    This isn’t the bullshit though. Last year we got in truth, two deleted scenes, the one with Pycelle and the one with Jon sneaking away. The other three were all extended. I understand why they didn’t do that this year, but look at all the stuff we’ve now missed!

    1. In the foreshadowing vid (8:00), Sam and Jon go on about how much confrontation there is between them in S4. It shows a scene where they fight about Ygritte, and this is likely an extended scene of the Craster planning. I’d have liked to have seen that.

    2. In the foreshadowing vid (13:08) we see Brienne’s armor unveiled in a much prettier and grander manner. What happened to this? It looked beautiful.

    3. Sansa walking through a room in the Eyrie and crying (Trailer 1 or 2 I think). This must be a deleted scene, right? Maybe a scene that was supposed to come directly after ep 7, at the beginning of 8, before she was taken before the council? Or maybe she was crying after Lysa’s rough treatment in ep 5. Would have been nice to see.

    There, I’m done ranting. Here’s some other stuff that never made it, but probably wouldn’t have made good extended scenes anyway (but still better than S3 I think):
    Some extra dialogue between Ellaria, Oberyn, Tywin and Cersei (some seen in the bastards of westeros video). Tyrion saying “I’ve talked my way out of a thousand … Podrick, I don’t think I’m talking my way out of this one”, in the jail scene. Jon saying “It’s like I went to sleep for a year, and when I woke up, the world’s fallen apart”, in his first scene.

    Additionally we’ve got the crappy (and gory?) stuff they originally filmed at Craster’s, that they said they took it out. Of course that’s not a deleted scene, but it annoys me we never found out exactly. And not to forget the Dreadfort scenes, which was originally going to have a battle in the courtyard. This is mainly annoying because of…yeah, not getting into that.

    It’s interesting to see how much S4 really had planned (or filmed) that was cut. I really wished they had taken some of those other scenes on the Blu-ray, if they could.

  5. TorbofThrones,

    It would be nice to see the stuff that was hacked out of that dreadful Dreadfort sequence. Where does all that stuff go and why NOT include it? Are they saving it for something? These two that are included are pretty bland compared to your list of possibilities.

  6. Ashara D,

    My thoughts exactly. Imagine how much I looked forward to this, knowing how much was cut. The Brienne and Jaime scene looked spectacular. Then we get these two scenes…

  7. TorbofThrones,

    A lot of the stuff you listed was in Season 4…

    Anyway, they’re interesting DVD extras, but in this case, cutting them was a smart move. The first one just would have completely broken up the momentum of Episode 2, and Bronn’s monologue just isn’t good enough to stop and listen to. Whether it was written by Martin or D&D, they’ve written much better. The second one is a little better, but I feel it was more powerful cutting from Jorah leaving in shame to a new setting entirely.

    Whereas I thought they should have left in the ‘Tywin fishing’ and the ‘Jon sneaks out of camp’ scene in S3…they were both great scenes, particularly the first one.

  8. Did you know Sibel Kekili was an adult film actress in Germany in the past? Just a random FYI. I’m glad Shae’s dead, good riddance. Those filler scenes with her served no purpose and her acting is not on the level for a show like GoT.
    Both those scenes up there, it’s clear why they cut them. The camera shakes so bad at the end when Tyrion is about to hit that cup off the table

  9. TorbofThrones,
    why NOT include it?

    If they decide to cut it early in the process, it never goes to post-production, so it’s not showable quality-wise. The two scenes we get to see here were probably cut only after D&D watched the finished episode.

  10. Jesterr223456: what filler scenes are you talking about,she has less screen time than her book counterpart and isn’t even on the same level of annoying as her .

    Indeed, the show’s elevation of Shae into a woman actually worth loving was invaluable: not for anything involving Shae herself, but because it made Tyrion that much stronger of a character. Part of the credit there goes to B&W, but Kekili deserves credit, too. (And if her crying seemed awkward, well, the next real sobbing person I see that doesn’t look awkward, I will write up a quick post.)

    As for her scenes all being “filler,” anyone who thinks that doesn’t get the idea of “story”: many of her scenes were cruxes of Tyrion’s contribution to the story in each year.

    As for the two scenes, they were not critical, but they aren’t bad either. The “don’t betray me” is lifted pretty much straight from the books, if I recall. In a story about love/hate relationships, betrayal is a powerful aspect, so even if it became redundant with Jon & Ygritte, well, guess what: the “redundancies” are what make it a story!

  11. Loved the don’t betray me scene between Missandei and Dany. It’s great to see their friendship developing and I hope for more scenes in season 5.

  12. TorbofThrones: It’s interesting to see how much S4 really had planned (or filmed) that was cut. I really wished they had taken some of those other scenes on the Blu-ray, if they could.

    Sort of HBO’s MO. Always one episode left uncommented for four straight seasons now.
    Extras , well for season one and two , the show was not a buzzer, but three and now four , a big hit, some skimping on extras. At least not devoid.
    Still HBO does some strange things, no Christmas DVD release and less advertising on other outlets , than HBO, odd business model.

  13. Seamus,

    I thought the scene conveyed more of a subtle, almost paranoid, threat than serving to “build their friendship,” especially as it came immediately after Jorah’s dismissal. If they would have fleshed it out a bit more, it could have been an effective scene.

  14. The “don’t betray me” is lifted pretty much straight from the books, if I recall.

    Thought Dany said this to Daario in the books though? But maybe to Missandei too.

  15. Interesting scenes, but I can see why they were cut. The Dany / Missandei scene doesn’t really add much to the episode, though it could have if Dany had let her “queen mask” slip for a moment (the way it does in her thoughts in ASOS when she dismisses Jorah), showing a hint of the deeper friendship with Missandei that they’re developing in Season 5.

    Also, Bronn’s speech was good, but still no answers on why Shae didn’t leave King’s Landing on the boat to Pentos. I’m guessing that they’re saving that for explanation for Season 5, most likely in

    a conversation between Tyrion and Varys.
  16. I thought D&D said the reason Shae didn’t escape was because Tywin ordered every boat to be stopped from leaving the city after Joffrey died. Although that in itself is only a partial explanation.

  17. TorbofThrones,

    I admire you for being one of the few who noticed all these scenes that were in teasers for S4 but were actually never shown in the episodes!

    That was very strange thing about S4, like why have these specific scenes in trailers but then cut them from the show?

  18. Sad that both these scenes got cut. The moment between Missandei and Dany was lovely, and the one with Bronn and Shae certainly helps explain why Shae turns on Tyrion (in the universe of the show, I mean).

  19. Family, Duty, Hodor,

    That then makes no sense how Sansa was so easily able to escape after the wedding! She left before the ceremony!

    I always it made more sense that Shae came back herself! To win get revenge etc.

  20. has just posted their analysis of the screenshots from the
    trailer and it appears Elio has deduced the same thing regarding Sansa’s storyline that many of us here have (spoilers, obviously):

    Elio obviously isn’t saying that he has any inside knowledge on this but in the past, he has been extremely observant when it comes to spotting and extrapolating spoilers based on footage. He was the first to confirm that Mel was hanging with the BwB from shots in the S3 trailer for example. He is also more plugged in than the average fan.

    One interesting note is that Elio is stating that because of the background in the Sansa/LF scene, it’s indicating that this is a conversation taking place in the North and that LF will be escorting Sansa to Winterfell and this chat about “vengeance” is her pep talk before he hands her off to the Boltons. I hadn’t considered that before but it makes sense.

    He also includes speculation that she could be handed off either as Alayne or as Sansa.

    And finally he notes that the bathtub room is identical to previous Winterfell room sets as many have said here too.

    So, let’s dispense with the accusations of craziness when some here state this is where the evidence is pointing. Until we see something that proves otherwise, this should be the prevailing theory.

  21. When the series is finished, several years from now, there will probably be an “extended” edition put out on DVD/Blu Ray. HBO is smart. They know that their money is in sales of the physical objects. Right now, we get the standard release. But they probably plan to sell it to us all over again later on down the road.

  22. King Tommen,

    Thought that occurred to me the other day-What if Robin goes with Sansa to Winterfell (with that perhaps being the official reason of the visit given to KL, just one Lord visiting another?). Then, once there, he would take on sort of the Walder Frey brothers’ role, maybe even being killed if they do the Winterfell killer storyline.
  23. This negativity is toxic. Maybe approach it with the “yay, exclusive game of thrones material” rather than “oh they’re deleted they must be bad let me see why they’re bad”…

  24. House Pines,

    My assumption is that there is some kind of scuffle in the Vale countryside involving Brienne/Pod with Sansa/Robin/LF early on (like E1/E2) where Brienne is attempting to get Sansa and is rebuffed much like she was with Arya. I wouldn’t be surprised if they found a way for Robin to be done away with at this time or at least shuttled back to the Eyrie, out of the story.

    They rammed through Sansa’s AFFC material in last season including getting Sansa out of the Eyrie. That to me was by design, in order to get her on the road to what the show wants her to do, which is to link her into the Northern storyline, something LF is plotting to do in the books as well.

  25. House Pines,

    I really hope they include the Winterfell killings, I loved the Agatha-Christie-style closed setting murder mystery feel of Theon’s Winterfell chapters.
  26. The scene between Bronn and Shae isn’t absolutely necessary, but it does lay the groundwork for both Shae’s betrayal of Tyrion, and Bronn’s decision to not fight the Mountain. “We have to adapt to circumstances,” says Bronn. “Learn new tricks.” Shae seemingly takes this advice, and does just that.

    IMO, this should have been in the episode. Goes a long way towards explaining Shae’s decision, in particular, which many viewers had difficulty understanding. I understand that the show-runners may have preferred to completely shock us with Shae’s betrayal, but I prefer developing motivations to shock.

    In any event, I still loved this season. But Shae’s betrayal felt undercooked.

  27. House Pines,

    True enough. Hard to tell what they’ve got in store from him but it’s hard for me to come up with an excuse for him to ride up to Winterfell when they had left it last season that his role would be to do a goodwill tour of the Vale to get himself visible with his own houses. We’ll have to wait and see but you could boil “Various Directors” down to the different directors between E1/E2 and E3. Should be interesting.
  28. ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree it would have been great to have the Bronn material from the deleted scene included, but to me the scene appeared very uneven. From my view, you have a good speech by Bronn, but what he’s playing off (Shae’s distress), is not particularly believable, at least to me.

  29. King Tommen,

    It should be the prevailing theory because Elio says so?

    As I see it, it would just be a bad decision. I trust D&D more than most around here, so I’m sure they’d be able to make the most of it, but even then I don’t think it’s such a good idea. Also, the evidence is pretty much non-existent. It’s pretty much all bad logic. That kind of door and room hasn’t been seen only in Winterfell. The theory itself is not crazy —saying that it’s likely or obvious or anything more than a pretty wild hypothesis is, however, quite crazy.


    Agree completely!

    The scene goes a long way to explain Shae’s decision, and it’s a nice little moment for Bronn as well. However, I don’t like the way the scene is staged. It feels awkward. I’d like it a lot more on paper or filmed in a more interesting way. So I can see why it was cut.

  30. King Tommen,

    I knew it! I fucking predicted this!!! Can’t wait to be proven right that

    Sansa will be in the North!!!!! FUCK YES!! I bet she takes a mixture of roles of Manderly, Lady Dustin, and Jeyne Pool
  31. Darjan,

    Wow, Sibel is an outstanding German actress who has won the German equivalent of a best actress Oscar plus other numerous awards, which means you need to do your research before making such a comment, yes early in her career she acted in more explicit material, but she is a highly sought after actress in Europe. You are letting your displeasure at D&D adaptions to the story and characters cloud your judgement, in my opinion Sibel’s acting was quite good, even in this scene.
    There was no reason to delete this scene, it strengthened both characters and gave reasoning behind their motives especially Bronn, the pros far out weigh the cons, and one extra minute isn’t going to effect the episode. bad decision in the editing room.

  32. Luka Nieto,

    Why else are the Boltons aligned horizontally? Are they taking a family photo?

    They are clearly expecting to receive someone. It matches perfectly with the scene between

    Sansa and Littlefinger. Cant fucking wait to see Sansa wreck shit in Winterfell
  33. Turncloak,

    I agree she may well head North. But to Winterfell, as a Jayne substitute? Don’t think so. At least, I won’t be convinced until I’ve got actual evidence. Just because we don’t know what Sansa will be doing doesn’t mean we should latch on the first theory that comes up, however flimsy its evidence.

    A mixture of roles of Manderly, Lady Dustin, and Jeyne Pool sounds great, though. I hope it’s more like the first two, and less like Jayne… I just don’t think that’s where Sansa’s story is heading —a tormented soul that needs to be saved by someone else.


    Of course they’re receiving someone. That’s not evidence of Sansa. It’s not evidence of anything. Doesn’t have to be Sansa. It could be Jayne. It could be Northern Lords. Freys. Envoys of Stannis. It could be… who knows! And how does it match the scene with Sansa and Littlefinger? That’s obviously in the fields of the Vale. Or you just mean thematically and/or in terms of what’s being said?

  34. Luka Nieto,

    What is the North to you?


    going to a random place in the North doesn’t make sense. She is going to a place where she will have interactions with other actors.

    Who do you think the Boltons are lined up waiting for if not

    Or do you think they are going to await the arrival of the one true king and about to bend the knee to Stannis? Jon Snow? Mance? Alliser Thorne?

    There are no other options save for Sansa/Littlefinger

  35. King Tommen,
    I don’t know how likely this scenario is, but if it does happen have Sansa and any of the Boltons met before? I only remember seeing them after she’s in KL but lots of small details escape me. As they started off as Stark allies they could have been to Winterfell as guests while she was there. If she does go to WF passed off as someone else but someone, probably Roose, realises who she is that would presumably put her in a whole new world of danger. That girl never gets a break does she? 🙁

    On a lighter note my computer keeps trying to change Roose to Rose or Rosé which makes him sound far less scary 😉

  36. Turncloak,

    There are “no other options”? Based only on the design of a door and the fact that the Boltons are waiting for someone, the guest just has to be Sansa? Believe in that theory all you want, and it may end up being true in the end, but if that’s all of your evidence please don’t imply that it’s literally the only possible option.

    As I said, it could be Jayne or another fArya. It could be a chorus of Northern Lords, or maybe a specific Northern Lord that we didn’t know was cast. It could well be Freys. Or hey, envoys of Stannis. Or something we are just not aware of. And, indeed, it could be Sansa. But she’s far from the only or more obvious option.

  37. Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I’ve heard that as well and it makes sense, but until it’s explained on the show, it’s a plot hole as far as I’m concerned.

    King Tommen,

    I have to consider the possibility that

    Sansa’s storyline will be merged with Theon and the Boltons until I see evidence that shows otherwise. It could work as a storyline (and it would explain the crying / avenge them scene from the trailer, though hearing that her sister was being married to Ramsay or learning of the official “death” of Bran and Rickon could as well) and it does fit with the lack of spoiler material from the Vale and Winterfell sets. That being said, I think that taking the story in that direction could lead to one of the producers waking up with the others decapitated head in their bed, Godfather style (SanSan fans do not mess around lol), so I hope it doesn’t end up that way. lol
  38. If Elio and others are right about Sansa taking the place of fArya, there’s a strong possibility that I’m going to turn into a raging book purist. The changes so far haven’t bothered me much at all, but this change would piss me off so much. I really, really hope Elio is wrong.
  39. Turncloak,

    I did, in my previous post, and I edited the next one to add my answer from my previous post, in case you hadn’t seen it. I’ll do it again: it could be Jayne or another fArya. It could be a chorus of Northern Lords, or maybe a specific Northern Lord that we didn’t know was cast. It could well be Freys. Or hey, envoys of Stannis. Or something we are just not aware of. And, indeed, it could be Sansa. But she’s far from the only or more obvious option.

    Anyway, we’ll know soon enough, probably before the show is released, thanks to trailers and such. There’s bound to be something that confirms or discredits the theory. Maybe tonight, even.

  40. Hodor’s Bastard,

    I am crazy and I’m hyped! I literally see no other reason for that cinematic shot.

    Are they going waste time on that shot to setup the introduction of The Freys arriving in Winterfell? No fucking way. We need faces people recognize to meet up with The happy Bolton family.

  41. Luka Nieto,

    Envoys from the Mannis? The only envoy Stannis will be sending is steel and blood ;).

    Awaiting Northern Lords? Possible but don’t see the reason for that shot. Hell even when the Northern Lords came to Robb we didn’t get a face to face like that.

    The Freys? Maybe, but we need someone we recognize like Black Walder or Lame Lothar. I still believe the highest odds belong to


    . It would make so much sense to not cast Manderly now if they were planning on changing this story from the beginning :-].

  42. Turncloak,

    Narratively, the scene could be all about the Boltons and/or Theon, even if what’s happening plotwise is that, say, the Freys are arriving. No time would be “wasted.”

  43. Could some lovely mod please put spoiler coding on my earlier (3.03pm) post. It’s in there but not having any effect. I’m sure it’s the right one ‘cos I’ve used it loads of times before OK. Unless you need to have it for each seperate para? I’ve only got it once for the whole post, could that be why it’s not playing nicely? Thank you 🙂

  44. Turncloak:
    Luka Nieto,

    Thanks for not answering the question. Typical no nothing answer. Belittle my question by not offering any alternatives

    Maybe you posted that having not yet seen his post where he offered several alternatives.

    I’m in the camp where I think it is possible Sansa goes to Winterfell, but I’m certainly not sold on it. Yes, the door in the background is similar to doors we’ve seen in Winterfell, but as has been stated in the comments to this article and others, Winterfell is not the only place doors like that have been seen, so to me, while it does he;p buoy the possibility, it is certainly not definitive proof.

    Personally, I just can’t see LF leaving Sansa in the hands of Boltons. Of all people in Westeros, is there anyone we’ve heard mention how you can’t trust anyone outside yourself more than LF? For one who operates with that philosophy, it seems nutty he would decide to trust the Boltons. Imo, it’s just too risky. I could certainly be wrong.

  45. I know the show doesn’t necessarily adhere to the letter of the law when it comes to ASOIAF customs and traditions laid out by Martin in the books, but wouldn’t the only legitimate reason the Warden of the North comes out to receive a guest be if the guest was someone of equal or higher station as himself? The show seems to set up this template (Robert arriving in Winterfell, Ramsay receiving Roose at the Dreadfort, Tyrion receiving Oberyn in King’s Landing, anyone showing up to the Wall, Theon receiving Yara at Winterfell etc.)

    It seems like the standard established procedure that the show follows is the Lord of the Castle has the new arrivals come to meet them inside unless they’re of equal or more importance (ie fellow Warden or royalty) whereby they line up in the courtyard to receive them.

    This is a small thing and the show could certainly make exceptions but if Roose is out receiving someone at Winterfell, the template would suggest it wouldn’t be any Northern lords that are pledged to him or Frey’s who aren’t Walder. Maybe it’s for Ramsay’s new bride posing as Arya but unless there’s someone of importance escorting her (a representative of the Crown or equivalent) it seems weird that Roose would lower himself to be present.

    The Lord Protector of the Vale escorting Sansa Stark for Ramsay would however be reason enough for Roose to be part of the courtyard reception. Right?

  46. Turncloak,

    The promo pics are all from the first few episodes as they were last year.

    There is no way Sansa could make it up there so soon. If she were going up there. Which I don’t think she is.
  47. Greenjones,

    I think she will be there very early actually.

    Littlefinger’s lines to Sansa in the trailer are very telling. “Avenge them”.

    Yes indeed

  48. Ha, so there are more followers of the Sansa to Winterfell theory. 🙂
    As I said in the other thread – the bathtub – is the prominent piece of evidence. I am convinced it is the same one in which Ramsay bathes Reek (season 4).
    Thus Sansa must be in the North.

    there is still a 1% chance that the bathtub is just a reused set piece though

  49. Also, Elio isn’t that tuned into the show or someone we should count on to notice details (of the show.) In the promo picture of the Boltons, his assumption is that they are at the Dreadfort… despite the fact that they arrived at Winterfell last season.

    He also still thinks the masked men are Brazen Beasts and not Sons of the Harpy… despite the fact that their masks are obviously Harpy masks, and that they are shown killing ex-slaves and staging an attack against Daenerys.


    They moved a bathtub from the Dreadfort to Winterfell?

  50. Luka Nieto,

    We do? Keep in mind that the leaked script in facebook did not contain everything. Also it only implies what Sansa has done and doesn’t even mention her scene with Littlefinger.

    The leaked script is incomplete or else we would know the major cliffhangers as well.

  51. King Tommen,

    Your reasoning is solid, ser, but I think Roose, as the new Warden of the North, has to put on a good show to all Northern Lords first. I would assume everything is crazy in the North right now and it is getting colder. It’s very politically charged. I would also assume/hope that Stannis has managed to get a few of his “envoys” in the mix as well. Hopefully, there is an element of unsettled acceptance by the Northern Houses. We shall see!

  52. Turncloak,

    No, but if that scene happened in episode 2 or 3, I don’t expect Sansa to arrive at Winterfell in the same episode or the next. I mean, it could happen, but still. Maybe in episode 3. But 2? Don’t think so.

    Anyway. I’m happier with the theory if it simply means Sansa and Littlefinger will go to Winterfell as guests, to substitute the role of some of the Northern Lords. But Sansa as Jayne? I still can’t see it.

  53. Luka Nieto,

    Come on, in this case it’s a portable wooden piece of furniture. Of course they moved all their household from the Dreadfort to Winterfell. 🙂

  54. Luka Nieto,

    Exactly. Elio and Linda really aren’t very plugged in with show news. They’re just jumping on a certain line of spec they were made aware of because of AdmiralKyrd’s postimg and WIC’s “article” on the subject (which was basically just them saying, “hey guys, look at this postimg…”).

  55. King Tommen: So, let’s dispense with the accusations of craziness when some here state this is where the evidence is pointing.

    I think that people need to look up the definition of the fallacies of affirming the antecedent and affirming the consequent, because both are being committed here.
    A backdrop is to flimsy to qualify as evidence. That backdrop could just as easily be the Vale given the trailer shots. Hell, it could be the Riverlands in some shots we’ve seen. Or it could be someplace different yet. So, it’s not an “If in the North, then backdrop X is possible” and no other “If in Area A then backdrop X is possible”

    The doors in Sansa’s bathhouse are seen elsewhere in the show (due to recycling of props): and the fact that it does not match the door from her Eyrie. There is no “If in Area A then Door Y is possible” and no other “If in Area B then Door Y is possible” principle here.

    As for the fact that Ramsay & Family are outside seeming to prepare to greet someone, yes, this does look like the setting for greeting Faux Arya. However, it could be for greeting the Freys. If it is the former (and my expectation is that it is: but that is just because I expect the scene) , then it would be done regardless of who is posing as Arya. Remember, part of the point is a show for the Northerners: and, no, they do not have to cast Manderly for this to be the case. Just put a bunch of large hairy men in the distinctive armor of the North, and people will get it.

    In part, I think that this is what comes from people not distinguishing between adapting plot-lines and completely inventing them. B&W have adapted a lot. However, the basic plot synopses always are indistinguishable from the books. And whatever else GRRM is going to be doing with Sansa in Winter, she is not going to be going to Winterfell to marry Ramsay.

  56. Greenjones,

    My thoughts exactly when I was reading this. It’s an interesting theory, and much better than not having a wedding at all (until I have proof I will fear that, there are no bounds to D&D’s cutting), but ultimately I think it’s too crazy, even for D&D.

    Sansa must have a purpouse in the Vale, which they must draw from the books. Basically, if they put her in Winterfell, it’ll screw up everything down the line imo (much like the butterfly effect), and even D&D wouldn’t be able to balance it again. Talisa was balanced, assuming Jeyne won’t pop up with Robb’s heir and change everything, Jaime arriving early at the PW was balanced, Mel going to the brotherhood was balanced, all the changes to the wall ended up balanced. My point is that D&D have yet to change something so much that it messes up the general story. This season might do that with not including a number of characters, but I believe FArya is so essential to the Northern storyline that they’ll do something along the lines of it, without Sansa. What happens when TWoW is released and it has something major going on in the Vale, which the show can’t replicate because she’s wrapped in the Winterfell plot? Then again, maybe you’re right. Jaime is going to Dorne, and they removed the Riverlands plot so…

    Anyway, I think the Boltons are recieving someone else. Possibly Freys or Northern bannermen, but most likely FArya. Please let it be FArya. Technically it could still work for the Winterfell storyline, but it’d make no sense on LF’s side, and the Vale storyline would not exist anymore. Wtf would happen to Robin? I think it’s more likely LF is talking about rallying soldiers from the Vale to some purpouse, or perhaps Sansa marrying to take control of the Riverlands. Something like that, the Riverlands storyline will be untouched after all, so maybe she’ll take it from Jaime. You hadn’t considered that, had you? 😉 Not in the same form obviously, but maybe something with Edmure or the Blackfish (she could conceal her identity but reveal it to them or something).

  57. Luka Nieto:
    King Tommen,

    It should be the prevailing theory because Elio says so?

    While I’m not exactly a fan of Elio’s, he *has* proved to be on point in his previous speculations. Also, he’s been pretty cautious about speculating at all. Since he knows quite a bit about future book storylines, it wouldn’t surprise me if this piece of info turns out to be true.

    If so, I don’t know what to say. Seems like a… radical plan.

  58. Luka Nieto: Anyway. I’m happier with the theory if it simply means Sansa and Littlefinger will go to Winterfell as guests, to substitute the role of some of the Northern Lords. But Sansa as Jayne? I still can’t see it.

    I doubt that, even. The Boltons are allies of the Lannisters. It will be well-known to everyone at this point that the Lannisters have put a big price on Sansa’s head. Indeed, this was a point at the end of last season, when Sansa tells the Vale Lords who she really is.

    At the end of last year, we basically saw Littlefinger basically rally the Vale Lord Trio to war against the Lannisters. IF Sansa is going to Winterfell, then it’s going to be with an army of Vale soldiers: and she will be a besieger. I expect that the point of this year for Sansa is going to be to have her parallel what Daeny and Jon do: show that the child can be the adult and rule. Moreover, that actually might not be too far from what she’ll do in Winter: at least before

    the Aegon Bomb hits the plot.
  59. TorbofThrones,
    If you are expecting

    Sweet Robin to live too much longer into Winter

    , then I think you are to be disappointed! Quite a bit of LF’s scheming seems predicated on that not happening.

    My guess is that this will be the first real taste of Winter that we get on the show.

  60. Wimsey,

    You put it better than I ever could. The strength of the evidence for this theory is largely based on logical fallacies; and this wouldn’t be the typical way D&D adapt, it would be an outright invention that completely derails the story —the story, not just the plot. That is, Sansa taking the role of Jayne in the books. Now, going to Winterfell under some pretext for some other reason… that I can see. But she won’t suffer Ramsay as Jayne did, and she won’t be saved by Theon and taken to Stannis and then the Wall as she was, I can tell you that much, because that wouldn’t make any sense for Sansa’s development as a character.

  61. Mr Fixit,

    Can’t agree. He thinks the Boltons are at the Dreadfort, and he’s insistent that the Sons of the Harpy are actually either Brazen Beasts or “Sons disguised as Brazen Beasts”… when the obvious truth is that there are no Brazen Beasts in the show, and that the masks are Harpy masks. And that’s just the recent stuff.


    I agree. But it’s still more likely than the Sansa=Jayne theory.


    Again, I agree. Sweet Robin is no long for this world, and that will be the first big TWOW spoiler… not that it’s an unexpected spoiler.

  62. I think it is important to keep in mind

    to maintain appearances, the Boltons would line up as seen in the trailer to greet whoever is posing as the Stark we’re guessing is going to be brought to Ramsay to marry. It doesn’t have to be an actual Stark they’re greeting, just someone posing as one. If they’re sticking with Ramsay marrying a fake-Stark, it would kind of give it away if the Bolton’s didn’t engage in the formalities they would if it really was a Stark.
  63. Luka Nieto: Now, going to Winterfell under some pretext for some other reason… that I can see.

    If anything, then I could see Sansa & the Valemen substituting for

    the Northern army that is besieging Winterfell later in the story. That would have the advantage of making Sansa very Daeny-like, and it might not be too far from what she does in Winter.

    My primary objection to this idea comes from looking ahead. In Winter, whether Sansa and the Vale side with Daeny, Stannis or a Third Party is probably going to be important. However, I cannot see her siding with Stannis simply because in Stannis’ black-and-white mind, Sansa will be Lady Lannister: and that means that if Sansa is an honorable woman, then she is loyal to Tyrion’s family or if she’s not loyal to Tyrion’s family then she is dishonorable. (I see her probably joining the Third Party: and possibly setting up a mechanism for her to be a Female Royal of Prophecy…. 😉 )

  64. Greenjones:

    The promo pics are all from the first few episodes as they were last year.

    The promo pics include Tyrion in Volantis which probably can’t be in the first 3 episodes. I think if the pics are all of things happening in the first 4 episodes, then Sansa arriving in E4 after the Vale stuff happening in E1/E2, that’s definitely feasible.
  65. Luka Nieto,

    It’s certainly an interesting theory, and I’m not against it if the details can be ironed out but one thing that bugs me is

    If Sansa is Ramsay’s bride, doesn’t this have implications for Jon’s story? Not a logistical issue, but it just doesn’t feel as right as Jon wanting to rescue Arya.
  66. King Tommen,

    The Volantis characters we are aware of are in episode 3.

    So, that’s when Tyrion will split off from Varys and Jorah will kidnap him, and that’s where the picture is from —well, either episode 2 or 3. Certainly not 4 or beyond.
  67. Berto:
    I’m glad they’ve cut these scenes.

    The first one for Sibel Kekilli’s really bad acting.
    The second one for the horrendous special effect.

    I thought the framing and the color correction on the second scene was brilliant. Funny how we all react differently. We are humans, after all.

  68. If Sansa is going north already I must say I’m worried. The northern storyline was perhaps the strongest in the last two books so I don’t think it needs tampering with. Also leaves nothing happening in either the Riverlands or Vale. Also seems a bit silly that LF worked so hard to get a foothold in the impregnable Eerie only to leave it so soon.
    The worry for this next season increases. It appears every storyline now has had major changes.

  69. Luka Nieto,

    Littlefinger, too, is in Winter territory. He’s part of Sansa’s storyline at this point, after all. We might have informed guesses about what is to come in Winter, but B&W actually know.

    As for Sansa heading to Winterfell, I do not see that as affecting Theon’s storyline. It also need not affect Jon’s storyline: the issue of how Jon & Melissandre interact is multifaceted and does not need all of them; also, once Theon does

    make off with Ramsay’s bride (whoever she is), the Wall is a sensible place to send them: and it would not be surprising if Ramsay assumes that this is where they head.

    ; so, the “Pink Letter” still could be in play.

  70. Luka Nieto,

    Aye, that’s what I meant. I used Eyrie to represet the Bloody Gate, Gates of the Moon and the three waycastles that comprise of the defenses that protect it. As I remember LF and Alayne are currently touring them?

  71. TheTouchOfFrost,

    Yeah. They’re touring the whole Vale so that Robin learns something. Obviously there’ll be more to the plot than that —something will happen that deviates that peaceful plan. But… not Winterfell, IMHO.

  72. Luka Nieto: Obviously there’ll be more to the plot than that —something will happen that deviates that peaceful plan. But… not Winterfell, IMHO.

    Is the plan even peaceful? Littlefinger is pretty clear that he thinks that the Vale needs to choose a side, and the Vale Lords are (on TV and in the books) ready to declare against the Lannisters. Sansa is now (insofar as she knows) the heir to Winterfell: but she cannot hold that claim while the Lannisters are going to maintain that she is Tyrion’s wife and that she is a suspect in Joffery’s murder.

  73. Glad that less people now think that I and the other Sansa-goes-north proponents are crazy. 😀

    But I see a lot of people disliking or dismissing this theory because they don’t want Sansa to be a victim, let alone Ramsey’s victim, or because they think Sansa going north = Sansa subbing for Jeyne Pool = Sansa’s own character arc being diminished.

    I don’t think that would be the case at all.

    As of the end of S4, Sansa is a player.

    And a player’s gotta play.

    So who’s she going to play against?

    Littlefinger? Unlikely. She had a perfect chance to rid herself of him last season and passed. They are basically allies now.

    Robin Aryn? Also unlikely. The phrase “like shooting fish in a barrel” comes to mind. Sansa outwitting a crazy pre-adolescent would not be super interesting for a whole season.

    The Lords of the Vale? Nah. She’s already shown she can play them like a cheap violin. She may do some Vale politicking early in the season but I don’t think that will be her whole S5 story.

    So, basically, I don’t think Sansa’s going north to be a victim. I think Sansa’s going north because she has leveled up as a player and needs a new challenge. Littlefinger would not be “letting her go,” he would be sending her on a mission, counting on her own motivations (go home, retake Winterfell, avenge the Starks) to keep her on task. Holding the Vale is fine for him, but it doesn’t give him the North. The Vale is pretty much impregnable but also isolated and self-contained. It’s a great place to hide out but not that great as a means of gaining power over other places. Having his ally and protege become Lady of Winterfell would be very advantageous for him in his world-domination game. (Sure, she’d be Lady Bolton, but Littlefinger has a talent for helping ladies get rid of pesky husbands. And I think LF is less concerned about being Sansa’s first than being her last.)

    Sansa marrying Ramsay wouldn’t be anything like fArya marrying Ramsay. fArya is broken and pathetic even before she meets Ramsay, while Sansa is a smart little bird with sharp talons. Littlefinger used his influence to groom fArya as a sad little sex toy who would do what she was told; he has trained Sansa to be a power player and she has exceeded his expectations. fArya had no connections, allies, or skills. Sansa has the Vale at her back, her true Stark blood, and plenty of Northern resentment to quietly inflame behind Ramsay’s back.

    Taking down the Boltons won’t be a walk in the park, but Dark Sansa the Player needs a serious challenge to sharpen her little-bird talons, and I don’t think she’s going to find that in the Vale.

  74. I’m not saying that I am fully behind the Sansa as FArya theory. However, I can see how this would be plausible if they are having Sansa pretend to be Alayne who is pretending to be Arya. In the books, Everyone knows that Farya is a fake, but continue to still go along with it because it can’t be disputed due to Theon vouching for her. My reasoning is this:

    1. Why hire a new actress when you can already use one who is vital to the story that everyone is invested in? Let’s be honest, the suspense of Sansa around the Boltons would be strong and that plays well for television.

    2. Ramsey is a bastard and so is Alayne. Wouldn’t that be a better match? Again, everyone knows FArya is a fake. The Bolton’s need a Stark to keep Winterfell. They do not care that she is fake. Littlefinger offers up his bastard for Roose’s bastard. He might even legitimize Alayne first. She then pretends to be Arya and just like that the Boltons have their Stark. No one would need to know it’s Sansa at all. And if they say FArya looks like a Sansa, well, she is pretending to be a Stark.

    3. We know that Littlefinger is going back to King’s Landing and Sansa will not be tagging along. We know she has an independent story of her own. This in no way of proof of her going to Winterfell, however, as King Tommen has said before the show is notorious for having characters cross paths. It would make sense to have another main character interacting with the Theon and the Boltons.

    4. Theon’s story would be more dramatic for television. If Theon was trying to save Sansa, someone he actually cared for, I have a feeling that would sell well to the unsullied.

    5. Jon’s arc would then have him going to save his actual sister. Again, I think this would sell better to unsullied, but the similarities are there. Jon would still be saving a “sister”.

    As I said, I in no way think that this is set in stone or it will definitely happen, but I have to consider the possibility. It can be done because none of us know exactly where everyone ends up throughout the next two books. We have to remember D&D have to do some extremely heavy lifting to get all of this condensed in the time they have left. Things are going to be different. Some things very different (Jamie), but we have to have faith that the story they tell will still be entertaining.

  75. Blind Beth,

    Sansa will eventually go north but this season is too soon IMO. There’s still a lot to play out up there before she needs to turn up. If that’s the direction they’re going with her then I think leaving her out this season (like Bran) or at least giving her a reduced number of scenes would have been wiser than trying to wedge her into an already solid and busy storyline.

  76. Going back to the Bronn-Shae deleted scene…

    There are a few other reasons why I think it (or a scene like it) should have been included.

    1. It’s one of those rare instances when GoT gives us the “downstairs” perspective in the upstairs-downstairs drama. Almost everything in the story revolves around men and women of noble families (the upstairs), and its nice to see those not of that class (the downstairs) talk to each other and commiserate in such a way.

    2. This scene is also consistent with Bronn’s “When have you ever risked your life for me?” statement to Tyrion, which Tyrion takes as a legitimate question.

    3. Bronn’s advice to Shae is vague enough that it does not implicate him in Shae’s decision to betray Tyrion (as some have contended). He simply suggested that she adapt in order to survive and prosper. Never for a moment was he implying that she should shack up with Tywin Lannister!

    4. Lastly, its realistic. Bronn is a loyal fellow, sure. But he’s a sellsword, and though Tyrion appreciates him, Tyrion still treats him as a sellsword. In that context, its perfectly understandable that he might say a few negative things about the class of people Tyrion belongs to. It’s still in character, IMO, because Bronn doesn’t actually betray Tyrion. He just vents a bit, and mostly in service of giving Shae some advice that might keep her alive. In other words, I think it rounds his character out in a realistic way.

    However, I don’t think cutting it was necessarily the wrong decision, as it is a little poorly-staged. But a scene like this, perhaps toning down the acid in Bronn’s indictment, would have been a welcome setup to Shae’s (and Bronn’s) future actions.

  77. Blind Beth,

    Fun to read! I do enjoy the confidence that you have in Sansa. Am I correctly assuming that you believe Sansa can handle Ramsay’s insanity because she has been exposed to Joffrey’s insanity? Admittedly, show!Ramsay has been toned down a bit from book!Ramsay, but you believe Sansa already has that kind of temerity? I don’t see that at all…..yet! Even the kick-ass Yara ran with her tail between her legs from the bare-chested, wide-eyed Bolton heir. I simply can’t get past the insanity involved.

    I think you should do a test drive with Ramsay for a few weeks and report back to us on how it went, if you still have fingers.

  78. Sophie herself has said in recent interview that Sansa will likely be seen as more “Badass” this season, so I don’t think it will be a case of her character development going backwards.

  79. Jesterr223456:

    One,stop bringing up her past like it means anything you mysoginistic moron,why don’t you mention how she won an award for a movie in Germany too and two,what filler scenes are you talking about,she has less screen time than her book counterpart and isn’t even on the same level of annoying as her .

    The way you just jumped to calling him a misogynist because he mentioned she was an adult film actress is pretty shameful. I think the mods should make sure these types of damaging ad hominem attacks are discouraged here.

  80. Luka Nieto,

    It’s not misogynistic as if it was a male porn actor I’m certain he would do the same thing. Porn acting isn’t looked down on because it involves nudity (male or female). It’s looked down on because it’s generally terrible acting!
    People must stop jumping the gun with misogynist/sexist accusations. It’s becoming an annoying feature of any discussion that takes place nowadays.

  81. Berto,

    Two useless scenes cut. They should have cut a handful more though- every Karl scene, the Yara epic fail attempt to save Theon and the Missy/Grey Worm nonsense.

  82. davy: Both scenes were quite bad.. I understand why they cut them. I liked the season 3 ones more.

    But I sometimes think that these ‘deleted scenes’ aren’t just deleted scenes but mostly shot to have something exclusive on the DVD’s. Some get cut because they are bad, but I think some good ones are just shot for the DVD.

    And sometimes they are shot because experienced actors like the guy who plays Pycelle tells producers they’re wasting his talent, so the producers write another scene, shoot it, cut it, and slap it on the dvd.

  83. TheTouchOfFrost:
    Luka Nieto,

    It’s not misogynistic as if it was a male porn actor I’m certain he would do the same thing. Porn acting isn’t looked down on because it involves nudity (male or female). It’s looked down on because it’s generally terrible acting!People must stop jumping the gun with misogynist/sexist accusations. It’s becoming an annoying feature of any discussion that takes place nowadays.

    Exactly. There was no gendered attack in the original comment.

    Up until recently, I’d been willing to put aside these obviously baseless attacks on people’s character, on the belief that the accuser’s ‘heart was in the right place’. But actually, I’ve had enough. The person being smeared has the right not to have their reputation sullied by someone on a personal crusade throwing incendiary, petulant pejoratives everywhere.

    Again, I really think this sort of thing should be strongly discouraged. It’s not good for conversation, it’s not good for commenters, and it’s not good for the civility of the site/forum, because personal attacks on people, especially when baseless, are unsurprisingly inflammatory.

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