TV Guide Magazine‘s most recent issue was a cover story on the incoming season of Game of Thrones, and now they have uploaded it to their site, TV Insider (thanks, Kaka!) It includes interviews with Kit Harington, Emilia Clarke, Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey, Sophie Turner, and the showrunners too, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.
We are so close to the premiere you may believe you have heard everything and, at the same time, very little of substance, but there are some interesting quotes here!
TV Guide got to see a highly technical scene being filmed by Matt Shakman, director of episodes four and five: Emilia Clarke rode the immense mechanical bull that special effects will turn into a dragon. Emilia Clarke couldn’t be happier, but the fun comes at a cost: “I’ve been on the dragons so much I have saddle sores,” Clarke told the magazine as she laughed. Dany’s task in season seven is no laughing matter, however, but neither is it all about killing people: “She wants to break the wheel, get in the power seat, enact change. She doesn’t want to simply wipe out anyone who disagrees with her.”
I certainly hope that’s not her plan, because I know of a certain Hand who wouldn’t be too happy about that. Peter Dinklage foreshadows other kinds of problems they might have: “We’ll deal with how much Daenerys can trust him [to stay on her side]. But he’s smitten with his employer. How good can he be at his job while having these feelings?” Now, that is interesting. I don’t see their relationship romantically, but… who knows!
“Every single character is putting that first step into the absolute unknown,” Clarke said. “Everybody means business this season.” And so they do, as Dan Weiss corroborated: “Everyone is facing something more dangerous to all of them than any danger they are to each other.” That danger is, of course, the “true enemy”: the White Walkers.
“Jon sees his mission this season—to save people’s lives. That’s it,” said Kit Harington about his character. Still, those around him may have been too affected by the ‘game of thrones’ to see it his way: “There’s a part of Sansa that feels very hard done by, and because of that, she is going to make not-so-honorable decisions,” Harington revealed. “Jon still sees her as just his kid sister. But he’ll start listening to her more this season.”
“Sansa’s learned how to manipulate. She’s a clever bunny now,” Turner told TV Guide. “And in a world where everyone is a manipulator —Sansa is one of the best— it’s becoming more and more difficult to tell who is loyal… even family.”
But family squabbles are not the height of stakes: “There are magnificent action scenes,” promised David Benioff, “different from anything we’ve ever done.” Apparently, there’s a “massive sea battle” that will “sail past Season 2’s Blackwater in scope.” On the other side of the spectrum, Benioff added: “There might be some surprising hookups this season.”
Speaking of hookups, there is a couple of siblings who are known for being awfully close to each other. Perhaps too much. “It’s a big season for Cersei and Jaime,” Lena Headey said. “If you thought it was complicated before, just wait. He blindly, wholeheartedly loves her; she [emotionally] vampires him.” Pretty spot-on summary of their relationship!
According to TV Guide Magazine, in the first episode, which premieres in eight days, Cersei will be planning to take Westeros from her enemies, as teased in the voiceover of the first trailer: “She wants to run the world. She is enjoying sitting on the throne. And she feels, for the first time, like, ‘Hear me roar,’” Headey said. “But Jaime wants to discuss the death of their last surviving child.” Jaime, don’t be such a wet blanket!
Seriously, now: I would say that’s a conversation Jaime would very much like to have, after returning to the capital and finding the Great Sept in flames, Tommen defenestrated and Cersei in the throne instead. Their relationship coming to a climax is something I very much hope to see this year, and I imagine I’m not alone.
But I shouldn’t assume. What are you looking forward to see the most in season seven?
DANY x TYRION?! I never thought of that tbh. Very interesting if it’s true.
Hodor!
Funny story – I wanted to buy the Dark Horse Hodor figure from Amazon. A question on the page was ‘will it hold a door?’, I cracked up, then read the answers, basically saying ‘probably not unless the door was really light…..can always tell a GOT fan
The stories I can’t figure out.
Arya’s.
Sam’s.
Melisandre’s.
Vary’s.
Ghost!
Ghost having screen-time, let alone a storyline, would certainly be news.
Boojam,
Seriously, where is Ghost? It’s like he went south to get warm without Jon.
Now, that is some great news !
They are going to address how Tyrion becoming a “believer” (at least, this is how I interpret “smitten” in a non-romantic sense) clouds his political judgment. I am proper happy !
ACME,
I interpret it that way as well, in that he sees Dany more as a goddess, not as a romantic interest. But I could be wrong. Some people saw romantic love in Tyrion, in last season’s finale.
Do we really need another smitten adviser who worships blindly? I’m not even a Tyrion fan, but damn give him a better storyline. And give Dany a better one too before she turns into a Mary Sue.
And yes Luka, I’m looking forward to that Jaime and Cersei conversation too.
Also looking forward to:
– direwolves getting 1 second of screentime
– Cersei fucking things up
– Cersei
– Oh and Cersei
– Jaime’s armor
– And Cersei in case that wasn’t clear
Peter Dinklage: “We’ll deal with how much Daenerys can trust him [to stay on her side]. But he’s smitten with his employer. How good can he be at his job while having these feelings?” Now, that is interesting. I don’t see their relationship romantically, but… who knows…”
———————
That raises some questions…
• By the time Team Dany set sail in S6e10, presumably Dany and Tyrion both knew that Dany would be seeking to topple Cersei & the Lannisters. I would think they’d discuss Tyrion’s potential conflicts of interest before they left. (She knows he doesn’t hate Jaime.)
• So Tyrion’s crushing on Dany. No surprise there. But if Daario and Jorah resurface, will they conclude that Tyrion has connived to keep them apart from Dany in order to clear a path for himself?
• Dany & Tyrion… unrequited/one-sided workplace romance… Those never end up well.
I find this infinitely more interesting than another Lord Friendzone story and I don’t even like Tyrion that much.
Curious to see how Jaime reacts to Dany and Tyrion. Seeing them interact should be gold!
Honestly, I love Jaime but if he doesn’t grow a pair and break with Cersei this season, he deserves a dragon to the face.
I do kinda get the why of Tyrion being smitten with Dany. She has given him the respect and recognition he has craved his entire life. And she has given it to him not because he is a Lannister, but in spite of him being one.
Jaime – please, please, please let this be the season where he realizes what Cersei is and gets the hell away from her!
As to what I am looking forward to:
-Sam (we’ve seen so little of him in the promotional material that I hope it means he has a really cool arc beyond reading books).
-Bran returning south of the Wall (and hopefully meeting EDD!)
-Seeing winter in full force.
-All the action sequences teased in the trailers.
-The consequences of Daenerys returning to Westeros.
-The BwB, especially Beric and the Hound. Especially the Hound.
-Everything Stark related.
Luka Nieto,
Well, Jorah saw/sees Dany as a goddess. “Sometimes I look at you and I can’t believe you’re real.” Didn’t stop him from falling in love with her.
For Tyrion (who said Dany gave him something to believe in aftter believing in nothing) spending so much time together with Dany in high-pressure situations… it would almost defy human nature if he did not develop strong emotional attachments.
Tough situation. He needs to have his head screwed on straight if he’s going to advise her properly.
Ten Bears,
Sure. It’s just that a strong emotional attachment doesn’t have to be romantic. And even if it is romantic, it doesn’t have to be sexual. We’ll see!
Luka Nieto,
I did not get any romantic vibe from Tyrion in their last scene either, I have to admit. I felt that this man, who had longed for approval and validation for his entire life, was shaken to his core and moved to tears when he finally received them.
This is the Daenerys touch ! She operates like a magnet for people who have had their hearts broken too many times and need redemption. She is what those who had lost faith believe in. That is what makes her such a superb leader and also what renders her cabinet so politically questionable, to me at least.
But, different people, different interpretations ^^
While Flayed Potatoes and Ten Bears are utterly right to mention the risk of Tyrion turning into Jorah 2.0 , I dare hope the writers will take his character in a different direction. Contrarily to Jorah (and Daario, for that matter), the youngest Lannister was interested in and good at politics before he met Daenerys. So he may have to cope with the conflicting signals sent by his “heart” (telling him that the Mother of Dragons can do no wrong because she is the chosen one, his and Westeros’s last hope) and his head (informing him that mistakes are being made by his camp).
He might end up oscillating between what he needs/wants to believe and what he cannot help but knowing.
The to-and-fro could be interesting, I believe.
I enthusiastically second every single one of these points !
Alba Stark,
“Jaime – please, please, please let this be the season where he realizes what Cersei is and gets the hell away from her!”
___________________
My wish?
Please, please, please let this be the season where he realizes what Brienne is and goes after her.
I just wish Darrio comes back bashes tyrion’s head..
Jorah treats her like a little girl and tyrion is treating her like some bomb that will explode any moment….
I can’t believe Iam saying this but have to say only Darrio saw her for what she really is and was honest and open ..
On the other hand I do hope this actually happens mainly because whatever we heard from the leaks nothing pointed to that …
So this gives me hopes that there are many things that we don’t know or spoiled ..
Everytime Sophie says something, my hype drops and I get angry.
I’m looking forward to more of Ghost 🤞🏽🤞🏽
I hope one of the later eps is titled-” A Time for Wolves”!
I’m hoarding tissues for what I hope will be an Arya Jon reunion, as well as an Arya Nymeria reunion!
From June 9, 2017 EW, p. 36:
“Arya’s story is so top secret we can’t even hint at what she’s doing after brutally crossing Walder Frey off her list in last year’s finale.”
🙈🙉🙊
Ten Bears,
Easy. She’ll open a barber shop and become the next Sweeney Todd. Hot Pie will become her associate. Years later, Tim Burton will adapt their exploits into a musical.
Those two things are kinda one and the same for me. When Jaime is heading off to the place that shall not be discussed with Bronn in season five and he says his ideal death would be in the arms of the woman he loves, I – it’s Brienne. It’s always going to be her!
Luka Nieto,
“But he’s smitten with his employer.”
– Peter Dinklage
I wonder if this season we’ll learn what the voice said to Varys when his parts were tossed into the fire.
I hope so!!! it has always made me curious.
Ten Bears,
‘Smitten’ means being overwhelmed by something, typically love, but that doesn’t mean it has to be sexual love, or even particularly romantic. I see Tyrion as being awestruck by her; she’s the first thing he has ever believed in after a whole life of being a cynic. Doesn’t mean he wants to have sex with her.
Finha,
I’m surprised it took this long for someone to bitch about Sophie/Sansa. As soon as I read her comments I knew this had the potential to devolve into the usual flame war. I’m happy that isn’t the case so far, and hope I don’t contribute to inflaming things by responding.
Ten Bears,
Tyrion has always been very insecure and he becomes completely attached to people who don’t mistreat him and instead value him like he did with Shae and Varys, so it’s pretty natural he would feel this way about Dany knowing she doesn’t see a demon monkey and instead a intelligent valued advisor and friend.
I share your wish but it is probably going to be tough.
Brienne is with the Starks and I doubt she will leave their side. So Jaime joining her means associating with the Direwolves.
Now, Bran’s greenseeing abilities appear to be developing fast and he may, sooner rather than later, recover the memory of his “accident”… Furthermore, if Edmure makes it out of the Twins alive and gets his region back, the Riverlands will probably align with the North due to the family connection between the Tullys and the Starks. Considering the circumstances and content of the last conversation between him and Jaime (the topic of babies in catapults is rarely a great icebreaker), Uncle Ed may not approve of the Lion joining their camp.
Jaime has made many enemies in the Stark “constellation” over the years. Reconciling with them may prove extremely difficult.
Alba Stark,
In their bathtub scene, when Jaime laid bare his soul, and collapsed into Brienne’s arms…
I’d like to think that even if subconsciously, that was in the back of his mind when he was talking with Bronn.
Vincent Stark,
I’m curious about that as well. I have a suspicion that it said something along the lines of “this is for a cause greater than yourself”. In that, it set him on course to where he is today. IDK, the gods are cruel.
ACME,
I know. It’s sounding more and more like the Montagues and the Capulets, isn’t it?
ACME,
In fact, I don’t think it will go that way. From what we saw last season I expect Tyrion to try to shape Dany into a perfect ruler according to his own understanding what the perfect ruler should be. However, Tyrion seems to have this strange idea that a good ruler shouldn’t mary for love or fall in love or have any kind of personal life in general. That’s based on his own experience: love brought him little joy and so the game is all he has. I have a feeling that he wants Dany to develop the same attitude. He is like Pygmalion but Dany is not an ivory statue. She is a women of flesh and blood and, although she wants to be a good ruler, her true desire is finding home and family and most importantly someone she could love. So, what can we expect, if she meets the man she fall in love with? IMO, there will be problems. I can see Tyrion pushing her into a political marriage with the KITN, but at some point Jon can easily become his rival for the role of Dany’s most trusted advisor and then frustrtions may occur.
On the other hand, Tyrion will devinitely have a conflict of inerest regarding his own family – primarily Jaime but I think he will be trying to save Cersei too. So, he will be interested in achieving some sort of compromise instead of simply burning them all. And that may not be the best decision, when it comes to Cersei, cause she will use any compromise for her own personal favor.
So, one way or another it looks like the season will be tense for Tyrion just like for everyone else and I can’t wait to see all that. And the first scene between Jaime and Cersei is on top of my priorities: I really wonder how she’ll get him back on her side after causing Tommen’s suicide.
Am I the only one who thought Jaime and Briennes last confrontation at the Riverlands was perfect and if they never meet again will be ok with it?
ramses,
I just had the hilarious thought that the voice in the fire said only two words to Varys.
“Bad Pussy”.
AND whose voice it was!
(That Kinvara sure spooked Varys…and me.)
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I knew my coment would sound like bitching. I love Sansa. I really do! I just get angry because it’s a terrible plot! If this rumours are true, I just don’t get how she could be against her family and manipulate them after all she has been through? I hope this manipulation thing is against LF.
Vincent Stark,
🤣🤣
I wouldn’t put it past D & D!
Luka Nieto,
I always thought “smitten” meant lovestruck, or at least romantically intrigued. I can’t tell for sure how P.D. meant it.
Can we agree it’s something more than clinical admiration?
🤔
All I care about is Theon’s storyline. I find that character so much more interesting than the ones everyone is always talking about (and Alfie’s acting so much better to be honest) I’m expecting a great Theon season!!!
“smitten” is in reference to the most delicious apples ever. Seriously, I can’t find them anymore where I am but keep an eye out for when they’re back in season.
I don’t think Dinklage hints that Tyrion feels smitten with Dany means love in a romantic sense. That suggests a rather strange road to travel down with such little time remaining in the series. I take the comment to mean he has strong respect and admiration for her and a desire to help her. It harkens back to his soft spot for “cripples and bastards and broken things”.
With no desire to start an anti-Sansa rant here it confuses me why they want me to believe Sansa is “one of the best manipulators”. Her secret letters to Littlefinger to bring the Vale has put her level in manipulation with Littlefinger? Since when? And who did that manipulate? She asked for help he agreed. What manipulation occurred that makes her “one of the best”?
I just can’t wait for that first moment when the opening song comes on and it really, finally starts happening after waiting so long!!!
OT- RIP Nelsan Ellis (played Lafayette on ‘True Blood’).
I´m exiting with the opening, I want to know how is going to look without any Essos in it
ramses,
I heard that, it’s so depressing I can’t believe he had heart complications at only 39. He was a incredible actor, one of the best parts of Tru Blood hands down.
Mel,
He was great. I’m watching some of his scenes right now. I lost interest in the show in later seasons but Lafayette remained a beloved character for me.
Of course! But more like worship than sexual interest.
Ten Bears,
Very much so.
With the added bonus that, while the Montaigus and Capulets could not even remember why they hated each other so much, the Starks and the Lannisters know perfectly well why they loathe each other.
Inga,
That is a very interesting take indeed though I have to admit I am not entirely certain I agree with you in regards to Tyrion’s view on love and rulership.
After all, his father, one of the greatest rulers in recent Westerosi history, was famously very much in love with his wife. To the point of not remarrying after her death. So, even though Tyrion does anticipate the possibility of Daenerys having to seal an alliance via matrimony, his anticipation appears to stem more from an understanding of how medieval politics routinely works than from a particularly cynical take on love, in my opinion.
As for the younger Lannister attempting to be the Pygmalion to Daenerys’s Galatea, yours is a frankly excellent interpretation. It very well may play out that way. For my money, the last time we saw Tyrion, he was too ancillary to the Mother of Dragons to cast himself in as subtly dominant a role as that of her “sculptor”.
I can easily imagine Varys positioning himself as the Queen’s “creator” but Tyrion… I struggle a bit.
Vincent Stark,
You have just won the internet, sir !
I don’t want to be a spoiler but Game of Thrones is a fairy tale… Brienne has been rejected by men all her life and in the end Brienne will marry Lord Jamie Lannister King of the Seven Kingdoms and then some real cool stuff happens….
Do you know the date and time of the Red Carpet premiere event? and if you do know will you post it so I will know too
I won’t be surprised if Season 7 starts with a intro scene before the opening credits theme song… like season 4 episode 1 “Two Swords” but either way it will be a moment to remember
I believe it is on Wednesday. I can’t find anything official from HBO or GoT’s websites/social medias, so I can’t confirm it. With Nathalie flying out to LA and Kit/Nikolaj on Kimmel Monday/Tuesday and Carice on Thursday, Wednesday sounds about right. Hopefully FB does a live stream with interviews like last year. I believe it was around 7pm est.
Oh so much goodness!
Though I agree it might be cliche, I had wondered if Tyrion would develop a crush on Dany. I’ve been spending a great deal of time lately trying to figure Tyrion out: his motivations, his drives, his deepest desires.
Every child has a deep and overwhelming desire to feel loved, listened to, and appreciated by parental figures. Tyrion’s mother died and his father and sister hated him. He was loved by Jaime, but that love was betrayed with the Tysha lie. He was loved by Tysha, but that love slipped away from him because of Jaime’s betrayal, and so it couldn’t really fill that hole. He has been obsessed with whores to fill that need to be loved, but whores don’t really love, do they? Hence his betrayal by Shae and the final straw that sent him over the edge of loneliness and despair. The Jaime revelation started the “wherever whores go” ranting because Tysha was the one person on earth whom he felt genuinely loved him, after Jaime’s betrayal.
Not only that, but he feels that all society mocks him, hates him, sees him as a monster, and fails to respect all he is and all he could be. As a dwarf in a time where dwarfs were feared, hated, and killed, he could have the ultimate Napolean complex.
And so it would make sense to me that he is a man who desperately wants to be loved and desperately wants to be respected, perhaps willing to do anything to have these things. With that in mind, rewatching his anointing as Hand of the Queen, it’s easy to see how he might be smitten.
Wow, the Sanstabbing hints just get heavier and heavier and heavier…. I can’t wait! And I love the British “hard done by.”
ACME,
Yes, Tywin loved his wife, but Tyrion has never seen his parents together. All he saw was his father being unable to get through the loss of his beloved wife and blaming his youngest son for her death. So, Tyrion could think that had his father loved his mother less, he could have had a better life. And as for Dany, he brought up the issue of love and marriage twice in the show: in Hardhome he said that marrying Hizdahr made Dany a good ruler, and in the Winds of Winter he said that breaking with Daario made Dany a good ruler. I would say on the contrary: marrying Hizdahr and then intimidating him by publickly showing around with Daario by her side would have led to no good, if the Sons of the Harpy hadn’t killed him; as for Daario, her decision to break with him led to leaving this sexy sellsword in charge of Meereen and we bot agree that Daario is the most inapropriate person for the job, not to mention that now he is angry and therefore primed for treason. So, I would say that two decisions that Tyrion took as a proof that Dany was a good ruler in fact were very bad decisions, and though Dany had luck in the first case, her breach with Daario may still lead to some very bad things. And in general, I would say that alliances through matrimony work only when matrimony is based on love or at least mutual respect (it’s not the exact quote from one medieval poem but close to that) and moreover that rulers absolutely must have a harmonious family life, because ruling is hard and people need some safeheaven to relax, otherwise stress may drive anyone crazy. However, it looks like Tyrion is obsessed with an opposite idea, even though he realizes that an unhappy marriage may lead to spouses murdering each other and overall turmoil in the reslut, and that really worries me, because such assumption may lead to bad adwises.
As for Tyrion playing Pygmalion – so far he is indeed ancilliary, but his influence strenghtens. He already persuaded Dany to leave Daario in Meereen – well, she wanted to end this relationship herself, but he gave her a good excuse. And he reminds her of her mad father in every conversation… In a way that may be a result of having own issues with the father but nonetheless it’s a way of saying: “I know better, do as I say or else you’ll turn into a mad monster etc.” The reminder was in place in The Battle of the Bastards but in The Winds of Winter it was out of plase, as if Tyrion used her week spot he had discovered earlier. So, that’s the reason why I have a feeling that Tyrion wants to control Dany. This desire may be unconscious or resulting from the best intentions but eventually it may cause problems, if it crosses some invisible line and problems primarily for Tyrion himself. Though I have to admit that the showrunners may take some other more path (like Tyrion being torn appart between his loyalties to Dany and Jaime) instead of delving into all this ruler-advisor relationship – it’s just one of the options. But on the other hand Tyrion’s repeated remanks about Dany’s marriage/affairs and being good ruler looks like foreshadowing of some conflict or development along these lines.
Edward,
The look Tyrion gives her in 6.10, when he says Daario wasn’t the first to love her and won’t be the last, was a dead giveaway to me. Tyrion looks hopelessly in love. Doesn’t make any sense, but whatever.
Second time I’m posting this (had a rather rude interruption). So, this is what I’m looking forward to seeing:
The reunion of the Stark siblings. How is Jon going to take learning that he is a Targaryan heir with as good as if not possibly a better claim to the Iron Throne than Dany? Jon’s loyalty is to the North including the Wildlings. Of course with better clothing the Unsullied could finally fill out the ranks of the Night’s Watch.
Sansa is The Lady of Winterfell. She’s so earned it. Of course she does have a living husband in Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the (putative) Targaryan Queen. This also makes her Queen Cersei’s sister-in-law (which is better than having been her almost daughter-in-law). I think Dany’s going to have to wait in line (along with the Ladies from Dorne) for the Stark sisters to have their way with Cersei.
Arya still has her list. Possibly added a few names to it. I could see her spying on the Brotherhood Without Banners and making an alliance with The Hound to deal with his brother and Queen Cersei.
Bran is an interesting character as no one other than the Wildlings have seers (ok, did forget about the followers of the Red God). Usually characters with Bran’s abilities are not able to have children but this is G.R.R. Martin country and the Reeds seem to have psychic gifts in their blood so a Reed/Stark child would actually seal the Stark family alliances with a northern family very, hm, attractive.
I do not see both Jaime and Cersei getting out of Season 7 alive, but I bet the producers find a way to keep them going. Brienne and Pod are Sansa’s retainers, so I think they’re safe as long as Sansa is alive.
Yeah, this is going to be fun.
Edward,
I thought he did a good job of conveying that he was falling in love with her in the last episode.
Markus Stark,
I think it does have a little logistical basis. I mean, Dany has showered Tyrion with praise and a position of stature. Tyrion loved being the Hand while at King’s Landing. He obviously grew to resent the role, but he definitely carried out the position as best as he could. This time however, Dany has given him a position with essentially no strings attached. She truly cares for his counsel and almost craves it in a sense.
I’m sure all of that would make Tyrion feel a certain way.
MY ONLY WORRY, is that they’ll make this smitten character arc too similar to Jorah’s. That would be terribly unfortunate. If he does develop any semblance of romantic love for Dany, I’d prefer it goes an unorthodox route that surprises the audience with actual depth and nuance. D&B has given Tyrion some wonderful material so I’m not completely writing them off from giving him a good character arc in the last two seasons.
trarecar,
I agree. When she named him Hand I saw some emotions on Tyrion’s face (attributable to Dinklage’s amazing acting) that he never showcased before on the show. It feels as though he lets his guard completely down with Dany. And so far he’s only ever done that with about one or two people in the series (Shay and Jaime).
Does Sansa have a “living husband in Tyrion Lannister”? I thought their marriage was unconsummated and annulled (?) so she could marry Ramsay.
I’m afraid I’m as perplexed as Lady Mormont: “As far as I understand… .Lady Sansa is a Bolton. Or is she a Lannister? I’ve heard conflicting reports.”
Tyrion being in love with Dany makes zero sense unless it goes somewhere. We had enough of unrequited love for Dany with Jorah. They can’t give it a new spin or make it fresh. The only reason to go this route would be to show him struggling between loyalties to Jaime v. Dany, but it’s not much competition if she doesn’t love him back.
When Dany made Tyrion Hand of the Queen, I got emotional vibes as well, but to me it seemed more in the way of someone finally valuing and trusting Tyrion for his own worth, which he would rarely have experienced. Wise-cracker that he is, I feel like this touched him deeply in a manner different from romance – he has been given faith and respect, and finally sees a person to really believe in and be loyal to. Man, that was really a beautiful scene….
The fact that the marriage was not consummated does not automatically render it invalid. One or both parties would need to publicly admit this to support a dissolution or annulment under English common law. As we are in Westeros and the couple were married under the aegis of the religion of the Seven, the relevant canon law would also apply.
I think from a plot perspective a valid though unconsummated marriage has the most interesting possibilities. Regrettably for the purposes of this post my education tends to focus on certain details.
I always thought that Tyrion and Sansa’s union could actually have really worked, if the effort was made on both sides. Tyrion showed her a respect that she has not been shown by many, especially the Lannisters. He made an effort to console her and to engage her in conversation. Obviously, she was too young and did not love him, and he did not love her, but I do wonder if it could work at this point, should they mutually decide to try. I think they could be friends.
Pigeon,
I’m actually still vying for a reunion between those two. Man have they grown leaps and bounds since they last saw each other in King’s Landing.
Inga,
Those are some very good points indeed.
In regards to Daenerys’s marriage to Hizdahr and break-up with Daario, I can see why Tyrion would find both decisions politically sound and worthy of a good ruler since they both, at their core, demonstrated the Queen’s willingness to sacrifice her personal preferences on the altar of political opportunity and stability. Such a sense of priorities and duty is, I believe, quite necessary for a decent monarch.
Conversely, leaving Daario in charge of Meereen was thoroughly inexcusable and Tyrion approving (or, even worse, devising) the move was uniquely stupid.
As for the younger Lannister referencing Daenerys’s father’s mental illness, I am somewhat on the fence. Your interpretation is unquestionably valid. It could really be a subconscious way for him to assert power over her. Spontaneously, I would be more tempted to believe it is a Westerosi habit…
Every time inhabitants of the Seven Kingdoms mention the Targaryens, the adjective “mad” is never far behind. It is a cognitive shortcut they cannot seem to let go of. Barristan Selmy used to do it too when disagreeing with Daenerys. The repeated references to the Mad King look, to me, more like a sign of weakness on the part of Daenerys’s advisors than like an attempt at control. Tyrion, and Barristan before him, lack the courage or will to commit the ultimate “blasphemy” and tell the Queen they believe she is just plain wrong about something so they hide their criticism behind the scarecrow of her father’s mental issues. It seems more cowardly than controlling to me. However, I have to concede that both are far from mutually exclusive ^^
Ten Bears,
Unless I am hugely mistaken, Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion was celebrated by the Faith of the Seven while her union with Ramsay was held according to the rites of the Old Gods of the North. Both religions’ rites are officially recognised by the Westerosi State but I would assume they do not validate each other’s sacraments. As such, Sansa might have accidentally stumbled upon a loophole allowing polygamy ! One may have as many spouses as there are religions in Westeros. ^^
And now, I am really eager for Sansa and Tyrion to meet again. Theirs was an ill-fated marriage at the time but they always respected each other. A reunion between them, after all the trials and tribulations they have gone through, should be most interesting.
It does in the show, as of Season 5 (even though Lysa said otherwise in Season 4, oops).
Pigeon,
I wholeheartedly agree. Dragon to the coupon!
Meh…yet another worship Dany storyline, this time for Tyrion… sigh..
The storylines I am looking forward to :
Cersei and Jaime
Dany
Jon
The Stark kids
of course
And please can we get that shot of Ghost sunning himself in Dorne, Since he seems to be nowhere around Jon/Winterfell, I assume he went there without Jon.
Best parte was Benioff talking about the action scenes
In general, it’s tough for non-humans to have storylines!
Varys and Mel never have had storylines, either on the show or in the books, so I would not expect them to start getting them now!
Something that comes up in the books in regards to Sansa is that unconsummated marriages are ripe for annulling. She’s getting a different new husband there (who has “abusive” written all over him, too!), and it is relevant because of that.
The only way that we will get more on the rules of annulment and/or divorce in regard to Rhaegar & Lyanna. After all, one common speculation is that Rhaegar & Lyanna did legally marry. Your suggestion that one could get a “New Gods” spouse and an “Old Gods” spouse is an interesting one! However, at this point, that gun should have been put on the wall, so I would be surprised if they go this route: both show and books have been very good about introducing plot elements before making use of them.
Flayed Potatoes,
You’ve got to be kidding about the dany “Mary sue” thing, right? She fucks up all the time. Is Mary Sue the new term that people throw at any strong female characters hey don’t like?
There are two things that Jon needs to learn. One, he is Lyanna’s & Rhaegar’s son, not Ned’s & Some Unknown’s son. However, we have yet to learn that Jon is legitimate. Remember, bastards have no claims at all here: the Lannister’s (who are the heirs of the Baratheons, who are the heirs to the Targaryens, at least insofar as people have been able to splice together) are next in line after Daenerys, not Jon, and not any of the descendants of bastards of Targaryens. (One line in particular comes up in the books, but realistically, there probably were an awful lot of them running around for the same reason that there are so many bastard descendants of the Hannovers, Bourbons, etc.)
And, of course, there is a third step. Not only does Jon need to learn that Rhaegar was his father (which finally has been confirmed!) AND that Lyanna married Rhaegar (which has NOT been confirmed, and thus might not happen), but we need to see other people accept it. This is a case where whether something is true or not is much less important as whether it is accepted to be true!
(If Jon and Daeny do meet and hook up – which would be horribly unsurprising, as they just smack of that couple who have several mutual friends saying ‘you have to meet Jon/Daenerys: you two would be perfect for each other!’ – then this probably would all be rendered moot.)
“New”? People have been using this term to criticize strong female characters since the 1990’s at least!
Now we can wait for the people who don’t understand what “strong female character” means to reply that “Sansa isn’t a strong female character” to reply with that. I’ll skip to the chase and give my reply now: “You don’t understand what the term means.” There, we got that out of the way!
😀
It would have been a good ending IF that had preceded a major battle in which one or the other died. As both are out there still, we need another good ending. My bet is that it will come shortly before Jaime’s end: which I am betting will happen in roughly the same scene (give or take zero scenes) as Cersei’s end! 😀
Yes, I would agree with that. However, it all could be a bit confusing inside of Tyrion’s mind. Even in the modern world, some men get very confused when women evoke emotional responses that they are used to having invoked by other men: women are supposed to invoke either sexual or familial responses, whereas men are supposed to invoke awe and “epicness” or whatever you want to call it. (And I’m never using “epicness” again….)
New Maisie interview – firewalled but not paywalled:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/game-of-thrones-star-maisie-williams-talks-ahead-of-the-new-series-0dqgk7f3s
Quote:
So, Maisie, how is it going to end for Arya? She’s everyone’s fave from the Seven Kingdoms. She’s got her sight back. She’s got that list of dudes to kill. You must have some idea of her final story arc by now? “Ummm,” comes the first in a series of evasive, West Country splutterings, “I can’t say anything.” This won’t do, of course. You need to spill some tea, I tell her sternly. So she giggles, then whispers cautiously: “Things are looking up for Arya. She gets her own way a little bit, which is nice, because she’s had such a tough journey. But,” she pauses for comedy effect, “they’re also bittersweet at the same time. Dot, dot, dot.”
Inga:
Why in the names of any of the gods, the old or the new, would Tyrion try to save Cersei? The sister who immediately concluded that he had poisoned Joffrey, even as his last breath was leaving his lips? Who tried to have him executed? Who put a bounty on his head? Who tortured him in his crib?
Nope. Nope. Nope!
Vincent Stark,
/whiskey out nose
ACME,
You are saying they are too scared say she may be wrong and how about we try this one but keep saying its like your father who was mad ,so let’s try my way …
I can’t think of one conversation that didn’t involve her father in the last two seasons .
The most annoying thing about the show for me has become the use of mad king….and all this is because the showrunners think this is somewhat interesting to keep it this way….while it have been the case for earlier seasons . its getting irritating and annoying as season goes…
Just make her one or get over it….
Jack Bauer 24,
Nope, I agree completely. As much as I’d love for them to end up together, it was never meant to be. And their last meeting was perfect.
? Very few of Daenerys’ conversations in the last two seasons involved her father. I can think of two that did last year. That stated, it’s something that should come up periodically: as others have noted, Aerys’ insanity left a distinct impression on the political landscape in Westeros.
To be fair, it would probably be the easiest way to kill her. If she realized Tyrion was looking out for her, her head would explode. Huzzah!!!!
Pigeon,
I totally agree. They at the least had mutual respect, and they were as kind to each other as anyone had been to that point. Were it not for Littlefinger and Olenna, I think they could have carved out a bit of happiness.
Oh Luka, you sweet summer child. This is Tyrion we are talking about. A major part of his whole life was being sexually interested in everything around, that’s what a large part of Tywin’s complaint was. Do you really believe that just because Dany isn’t a whore that his worship of her won’t include a hard on?
*******************************************************************
I’m looking forward to how Jon and Dany get along, why Melisandre is lurking around and how she got there, what issue is the last straw for Jaime regarding Cersei and
Wimsey,
I should have specified every decision making conversation …
Barristan or tyrion willbring upup aerys ..
How many times we have actually seen realm worrying about targ madness in the books…
Its only later in the dance where we see mace and arriane bring fhis up for their oen gain..
On the contrary I would like to ask how many times rhaegar has been mentioned to her in the show…isn’t that what happens in the books ..
Wolfish,
i wont put it past show tyrion ..
I won’t be surprised it turns out to be dany who have more hatred for cersei than tyrion himself in the show
What I’m most looking for is
What I expect most to see is:
— Needless mistakes made by arrogant, clueless Starks;
— Littlefinger slithering around;
— Cersei drinking wine and not knowing things;
— Lord Edd!
dragonbringer:
I might be in the minority, but I don’t object to the repeated references to the Mad King. If I recall correctly, Aegon was a decent ruler before being gripped by madness. It’s totally natural for people who witnessed it to be ever-fretful about seeing it manifest in his child.
I grew up in a family with a history of alcoholism and other substance abuse, and my daughter nearly killed herself with alcohol more than once. Now I freak out if she has a single beer. It’s an emotional reaction I can’t prevent, no matter how hard I try. In a similar vein, people in families where dementia is common often find themselves looking for signs of it in themselves long before it might set in. On the one hand, it might seem paranoid to think forgetfulness at 40 means the descent has already begun; on the other, it might actually be the beginning, and recognizing it for what it is will enable one to prepare one’s self and one’s loved ones for the future.
The Mad King didn’t just, poof, wake up mad one morning. There had to have been signs for a long time, signs that either went unrecognized or were ignored for fear of the repercussions of criticizing the king. The people who keep reminding Dany of her father’s behavior have every reason in the world to ensure that any rash actions on her part are due to inexperience and idealism, not bloodthirst driven by impending insanity.
(My apologies for the length of this post. It wasn’t my original intention to write a short essay.)
Oh, and Bran’s visions. I’m really looking forward to many more Bran visions and what he will do with them, and whether or not he can change the past, besides Hodor. And Sam and Gilly, what they find out at the Citadel. And whether poor spackled Jorah finds a cure for grayscale. The whole effing thing, I’m looking forward to the whole story, EVERYbody’s story this year. I just realized, this is the first season when I have a great interest in just about every story line.
I’ve been like a silly child, telling everybody Game of Thrones starts next week, Game of Thrones starts next week. ONE MORE WEEK.
Hey Jack, you feeling better now? You got titles and I think a report about the red carpet, you should be a happy guy now.
When I watched that Riverrun episode again, and watched Brienne being rowed down the river to safety, with Jaime waving his golden hand, the thing that struck me was that this is the second time she has gone away while looking back over her shoulder longingly at Jaime. She did it in Oathkeeper, when she rode away from Kings Landing. He was standing there watching her and she looked over her shoulder back at him. I don’t know if this is an indication that their lives will be dotted only with bittersweet partings or if the third time they are together will be the charm that makes them stay.
I agree. Watch Tyrion’s face and body language again during Oberyn’s tale about when Tyrion was born, and what Cersei did and said. He had never heard that story and had no idea that Cersei had done those things when he was just a newborn. Tyrion/Dinklage visibly cringes and pulls back in shock and embarrassment, he looks about to cry. It’s sad, and one more angry thing about Cersei for Tyrion’s mind to dwell on in thinking of his past. No, I don’t think he will have any affection or feeling of familial duty to her at all. He will be happy to see her blown to bits, or however she ultimately goes.
I commend you for being so candid. It really drove home your point as well.
Edward,
Thank you for the kind words.
Wolfish,
Like I said iam not against it being brought up ….but its being brought up every single time there is a decision need to be made …it gets annoying especially when you come out and say she is not mad sadistic and evil …
And where is the balance I don’t care about them bringing go aerys but where is rhaegar in those conversations….
They have removed the good side but only highlighting bad side …
And people only hold on to what tyrion and others are saying…
I remember you mentioning some of the changes in brienne and sandor to be changes that you can’t take …its the same for me…they have completely removed every rhaegar references but came up with their own aerys versions ….
And what’s more annoying is its coming from tyrion who is more evil and vile and ruthless than any other major character in the story …
She is as sane as anyone else …its natural to bring up her father but the show is over doing that just for the sake of making it ambiguous keep the questions hanging around while they are not really going to go that route because they have come out and said so …
By the way Which aegon are you talking about.
Wolfish,
Another question I would like to ask is don’t you think keep bringing this up will eventually push her limits and she may go over the line just because of all this constant mentioning of her father for every step she takes….
dragonbringer,
I was referring to her father, Aegon V (?). As for Rhaegar, I would counter that he wasn’t mad. Her advisors’ fear is that the same thing that happened to her father will happen to her. Rhaegar doesn’t really factor into their concerns for her.
I think you should re-read my comment. My point is that Dany’s advisors have every reason to fear a descent into madness, and having seen it once have the same sort of emotional reaction (perhaps overreaction, perhaps not) to some of her actions that people dealing with anyone with any sort of “history” tend to have. It’s just human.
dragonbringer:
No, I don’t think so. Not at all. Dany would never “go over the line” just to prove a point like that; it’s not in her nature. And she’s already proven, time and again, that she can be firm with people. I think that, if and when she tires of constant references to her father’s behavior, she won’t hesitate to tell her advisors so.
Selmy mentioned Aerys once or twice; Tyrion has mentioned him a couple of times. Most of the other conversations have been focused on matters at hand.
Tyrion? Seriously? (And this is not some childish fantasy: there is no “evil” here, just people with different value systems mixed in with some completely self-centered types; there are no “Saurons” or “orcs” that accept that they are “bad” for the sake of being bad.)
I think that the motivations are different. They are not worried about Daenerys showing signs of insanity. They are worried about her doing things that will remind people of an insane person, and that her enemies might use to portray her as mad. It is the difference between correlation and causation, really. After all, nobody asked if Tywin was insane despite the fact that he was much more ruthless than Daenerys is. However, “guilt by association” has existed in politics forever: and that allows for logically invalid associations.
Me too! My favorite two scenes with them together are the bathtub one and the tent one from 608 when Jaime tells her that Oathkeeper is hers. If you listen to the audio commentary for that episode, Nikolaj says – and I agree – that Jaime isn’t only speaking about Oathkeeper, but about his heart.
Wolfish,
Her father is aerys….aegon 5 is brother to aemon ..
Why the need to mention rhaegar is important because in the books we hear from the same advisors how she is not like aerys or viserys but more of Rhaegar…
Its daenerys herself who is worried about turning into a monster like her father but these advisors see her as rhaegar’s sister not aerys daughter…
And the show is completely ignoring this aspect ..
I assumed after battle of bastards it won’t be brought up again…
I will wait till the season to air to say why iam specifically annoyed by this..
Oh yes she really won’t hesitate to say that and I for one hope she says something like that to their face but i feel that season 3 dany is so long gone and can’t be seen in recent seasons…
Wimsey,
I should have not said evil but he is far more vile and ruthless than dany ..that I hope you will agree with ..
Wimsey:
Why do you always have to contradict me, Wimsey? Being all logical and well-reasoned and shit? Here I thought I was being S-M-R-T, like Homer Simpson, and you went and ruined it.
/goes to kitchen to console herself with another shot of whiskey
dragonbringer:
Oh, duh. Of course!!!
Note to self: cocktails + Lithuanian house music + writing about GoT = brain overload and lapses in memory. What was I just saying about dementia?
But I digress.
Don’t get me going on books vs. show. I comment on that occasionally (as you noted earlier, Brienne v. Hound is one of the Big Three for me), but I try really hard not to go there too often.
Tyrion? Tyrion? C’mon!!!! Tyrion is by far the cuddliest Lannister, and not only because he’s travel-sized. He’s not out there plotting murderous weddings and blowing up septs and threatening to catapult babies and whatnot. Hell, he’s not even following the Hammurabi Code, as a certain Mother of Dragons did when she crucified 100+ people during a rather satisfying use of the eye-for-an-eye concept. 😉
orange,
I actually like Sansa. However, Orange, I don’t know whether you have read the books, but in the book scenario Littlefinger blames another character for Lysa’s death (rather than it being ascribed to suicide as in the show). Sansa could have cleared the other character but she doesn’t. The books perhaps bring out more the danger that Sansa (who is still ” a highborn maid of three-and-ten” in the books) is under as she is still suspected of being involved in Joffrey’s murder and book Sansa has been living in the Vale under as alias as Littlefinger’s bastard daughter with her hair dyed dark. So she’s doing what she has in order to survive – show Sansa did say she had done that last season of course. Whether book Sansa becomes a supreme strategist still has to be revealed but – again maybe so more in the books [of course if you’ve read ’em you’ll know] I have had a bit of a Queen Elizabeth I of England feeling about Sansa. Real Queen Elizabeth had a (potentially) creepy uncle, Thomas Seymour, and Littlefinger is a creepy uncle in both books and show and real Queen Elizabeth and Sansa were both virtually “house” prisoners at times of their lives. The show has fast-forwarded to some extent (I don’t entirely mind – AFFC and ADWD were (to me) slow in parts though they had some good bits). Whether show Sansa has learned from her mistakes I guess we will see in the coming season(s).
Wolfish,
At least it was eye for an eye even if its not justice… Its understandable because children were killed because to warn her and mock her ..what excuse does he have for his actions in dance with dragons …read those chapters you will know…
Well except he is planning everything from making his niece and nephew to fight so that he can enjoy cersei’s agony.he is not like cersei I will give you but his aunt is right he is Tywin’s real son…
dragonbringer,
Tyrion is not like that in the show though.He genuinely has a good heart.Dany does too but we are talking about Tyrion here.
dragonbringer,
You are mixing up book Tyrion and show Tyrion. They are 2 different characters at this point. Show Tyrion barely shows any animosity towards Cersei at this point, inspite of all she has done.
Another item from the Sunday Times, online is paywalled for me but maybe not to everyone, so
“How Game of Thrones is remaking history”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/magazine/the-sunday-times-magazine/how-game-of-thrones-is-remaking-history-x5s3vdk22
I was able to read the hard copy ( and Maisie’s feature in Style magazine too)
dragonbringer,
I did use the word “satisfying,” did I not?
Among the conversations I enjoy the most on this site are the ones about the use of violence and justifications for such. A policy of non-violent resistance was incredibly effective in India in the late 40s, and ultimately resulted in the sun setting on the British Empire. But less than five years earlier, it took the single greatest shedding of blood in human history to stop Hitler. Fundamentally different situations call for fundamentally different approaches to ensure a path to victory. I, for one, believe Dany was justified in crucifying the masters. But I know there are many who disagree.
dragonbringer,
I actually feel the opposite way about this. I say this without any hate, but the fact that Dany has this ruthless/ slightly dark side to her (which makes her advisors worry about her) is what makes her interesting to me. Of course she isn’t mad nor is she ever going to be. She is genuinely good, with the best of intentions. But she has this ruthless side to her which sometimes makes people around her nervous. Good. Rather than diminishing her character, this makes her more rounded imo, that while she does so much good which affects a large section of people, she is also capable of making certain questionable choices.
Otherwise, she would just be this badass khaleesi/ queen with more and more people worshipping her. Given the times we live in, frankly all these people falling to their feet to worship her makes me roll my eyes. That’s why I don’t care much for the Dothraki storyline. And then you add in Jorah and now Tyrion apparently. The darker/ more ruthless side to her acts as a balance. Frankly if she were to go back to her season 3 self, I would find it boring.
This is just my opinion, solely based on the show, not the books.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Thank you SO MUCH for this!!! Wonderful article.
Wolfish,
Oh I didn’t have a problem with what you said about dany …
Talking about india’s movement of non violence resulting in their freedom ..we got our independence in 1947 two years after the death of Hitler and end of world war 2…
You would be surprised at how many people who are giving credit to Hitler than to to Gandhi when it comes to our independence… They are saying it was inevitable for the British to withdraw their forces after the war regardless of Gandhi’s movements..
Jenny,
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah I know I can’t but help speak about book tyrion …when you think about it there is nothing to talk about show tyrion ..he is smart and he knows things …he is good and he is funny and he drinks..
Ghsot .,I hope I explain this more correctly …yes she has that darker side and can be very ruthless…and its right for them to worry about her…
But we had this for two seasons isn’t this enough …at this point we know she is not going mad she is not going to be villain and these guys seems to following her because they believed in her and see hope in her…Whats the point of stretching it when you know its not going to happen ..
Another point is that one can be ruthless and make questionable choices without bringing up the mad part… Targs are known for their ruthlessness …while there are plenty from aegon to others to take example …why only struck at aerys ..
When I say season 3 dany I was referring to dany who was more confident of what she is doing and more decisive ..she called out barristan and jorah for questioning in front of strangers …if the same thing happened now with tyrion…I don’t think we will see something like that..
dragonbringer,
I had no idea you’re Indian!!!
Wait: There are “people who are giving credit to Hitler [rather] than to Gandhi when it comes to our independence”? That’s just… bogus, to quote Ted from Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure (my favorite “stupid movie” of all time).
Slightly OT: I’ve written a long post about Tyrion/Dany and Tyrion/Sansa, but I’m afraid it’s caught in Spam. I might have to post it tomorrow in the next thread it’ll be relevant to.
Lovely analysis. Completely agree.
Wolfish,
Yep it goes something like because of how worse Britain was affected by the war ..and how Hitler destroyed the economies of Britain and France to an extent that they were no longer able to financially maintain their military forces…and hence incapable of containing the freedom movements in their colonies…
So if it not for the world war the colonies who got their independence would have waited some more years but eventually gotten there…
While i do agree that it played one of the major factors ..I just don’t agree with how dismissive they are about it when it comes to Gandhi’s role.and it does not help that there is serious anti Gandhi Nehru agenda going on now with the current government…
I guess these are OT and probably very boring for many ..
To be honest, I was being a bit joke-y with it 😉
As you very rightly said, unconsummated marriages are ripe for annulling but, in the books, an official statement still has to be secured from the relevant religious and/or State entity for the dissolution to be materialised. On the show, they decided that unconsummated meant insta-annulled which was a tad silly ^^
In their precipitation (and by complete accident), the show’s writers did stumble on a semi-realistic loophole that made their decision to have the elder Stark sister remarry without seeking an official annulment for her existing union conceptually believable (somewhat). But I wonder if they even noticed… So the polygamy loophole will probably never be mentioned or used again.
Oh, do not get me going on Harry the Oaf ! He appears to have been designed as Robert Baratheon 2.0 and we know how King Bobby used to treat his wife. The Heir gives me some dreafully bad juju.
I can understand your frustration. I even share it, to an extent. It seems to me that Daenerys’s Westerosi advisors are both reluctant to confront her directly and traumatised by her family’s history.
The Mad King’s crimes and his son’s alleged misdeeds are still very fresh in the minds of Westeros’s nobility. Those events did not occur in a bygone era but merely twenty years ago, according to the show’s chronology. Many of our remaining characters were alive and aware when they happened : Jaime (and Barristan) saw Rickard’s and Brandon’s monstrous ordeal in the middle of the throne room, Littlefinger was at Harrenhal, Varys advised Aerys, Davos must have recollection of the Rebellion, etc.
The King’s and, through him, the Targaryens’ madness is a structural component of the Seven Kingdoms’ psyche and lore, a cognitive shortcut. Westerosi even have a saying about it : “every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin”.
Barristan and Tyrion are products of their environment and, as such, cannot ignore the sword of Damocles they envision swinging over any Dragon’s head, as Wolfish oh so very rightly said.
Furthermore, Wimsey did bring up a tremendous point about the appearance of madness. Tyrion and Barristan know what Westerosi think of Targaryens (since they share the same national mindset). So they have good cause to be very mindful of their Queen’s reputation.
On top of that, Daenerys’s Westerosi advisors (like many of their Essosi counterparts) seem hesistant to confront the Queen head on and so use her family history as a way to make their point without appearing critical of her personally. Here, I fear we may be back to the notion that Daenerys’s entourage operates more like a cult than like a cabinet. In the eyes of the faithful, the divine is never wrong, never mistaken but, when His/Her decision appear too harsh, clemency can be bargained for. Barristan and Tyrion use Mad Aerys as a scarecrow to seek leniency from Daenerys instead of frontally and honestly telling her they believe her chosen policy is dead wrong, which would amount to blasphemy.
That does frustrate me to no end, I have to admit. Daenerys would benefit greatly from such criticism, learning far more and better thanks to it. The Tyrion who shamelessly laughed in her face when she told him of the joy Westeros’s inhabitants would feel at her return had the potential to become a superb minister to the Queen; the misty-eyed and adoring Tyrion whose voice broke when he confessed he had found his “God” in Daenerys, while moving to the core, may prove politically useless.
To be fair, now that Show!Barristan is dead, there are not that many people left who knew Rhaegar personally and Tyrion is not one of them. He has no reason to believe that the tale of Lyanna’s abduction is false so, to him, Aerys’s son was a rapist and a murderer.
Wolfish,
That was extremely brave of you to share this… Thank you.
Your points are excellent and very well made. Yet, and I may be alone on this one, the Cersei/Tyrion relationship has always felt like a tragically missed opportunity to me.
These two would have greatly benefited from getting along. They both were Tywin’s “second rate” children (as opposed to “elder male heir of average height” Jaime) and could have learnt valuable lessons from each other. As the ruthless go-getter that she is, Cersei could have helped Tyrion overcome his natural indolence and he, in turn, would have taught her how to develop the sense of humour she so desperately lacks.
The mournful “what if ?” dimension of their rapport has been extremely well portrayed on the show. Their scenes together have always been brilliantly written and Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage systematically infused them with this hint of regret that conferred an added sense of tragedy to their feud.
Cersei needs a mom. On many occasions, the Lioness has expressed how cruel the world is to little girls and how necessary it is for them to have a female role model to teach them how to survive it. Losing her mother at a very young age was soul-crushing to Cersei as the one person who was supposed to guide her through the hostile world of Westeros was cruelly and inexplicably taken away from her. So she latched onto her one remaining parent who taught her to blame and hate her baby brother. It is so very sad.
dragonbringer,
It’s completely logical to argue that post-WWII, the colonial powers were stretched so thinly that they no longer had the resources to maintain control of their overseas holdings. But dismissing Gandhi and the inevitability of Indian independence smacks of massive amounts of racism, Orientalism, and self-aggrandizing “justifications” for how and why the largest empire in world history lost its “jewel in the crown.”
As for being “OT and probably very boring for many,” GoT is arguably one of the most politically-minded shows in television history, so it always confounds me when certain commenters become exceedingly prickly about other commenters’ references to real-world politics. On one hand, I certainly wouldn’t want conversation here to become bogged down by discussions about what’s going on IRL; on the other hand, it’s almost inevitable, as the very appeal of GRRM’s world is based on its universality. The setting, time period, and weaponry is foreign to us, but its themes ring as true today as they did 600 years ago… and throughout human history since the development of agriculture and, in turn, “civilization” as we define it.
What am I most looking forward to? Well, the whole annual GoT experience, with everybody at WotW. It’s always such a special time, with all the hype, emotions, analysis, jokes, even arguments. The staff and commenters here are such a great bunch!
As far as the actual show goes…
Jon: How does he cope with his new position, how does he try to convince other lords and monarchs of the real threat? Also, will he find out about his true parentage and how that will affect him? Oh, and finally seeing him without the notorious blue filter, haha!
Dany: How does her “homecoming” go and how does she (and her entourage) react if it isn’t all plain sailing?
Jaime: Will he finally open his eyes/mind and see Cersei for what she truly is, and ditch her for a more honourable course? (And will he meet Brienne again and how that encounter might go?)
What will Bran and Sam/Gilly discover?
Also really looking forward to all kinds of character reunions/first time meet ups.
Very excited about the new season!
Thronetender:
This is the only part of your excellent commentary with which I disagree, for reasons I’ll explain below.
ACME:
On your first point: Thank you for your kind words. The older I become, the more I’m reminded of Tolstoy’s famous line from Anna Karenina: “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” There is both comfort and heartbreak in knowing that my own “unhappy family” is much closer to the norm than I realized when I was a lonely, confused adolescent.
Which brings me to the lonely, confused children of Westeros.
Your second point brings me to my sole disagreement with Thronetender, the assertion that Tyrion “will be happy to see [Cersei] blown to bits.” I don’t believe Tyrion will be “happy”; I believe Tyrion will recognize that their relationship was a tragedy of Shakespearean proportions.
Much is made of the fact that twins are more alike than any two other people can ever be. Yet as close as Jaime and Cersei are, they are only superficially alike: They are both drop-dead gorgeous and sexually compatible, but in terms of ambition, cunning, and aptitude for the “great game,” Cersei and Tyrion are far more closely matched. As you note, they are both “second rate” children; if not for the death of the mother she so deeply loved and desperately needed, Cersei might have loved her little brother.
One of the many, many things I love about ASoIaF is its unvarnished portrayal of how profoundly disturbed family relationships such as the Lannisters’ really have driven human history at many points in time. And thinking about it makes me appreciate the Vulcans in Star Trek that much more…
talvikorppi,
Great to see you back!!! Haven’t seen you for a while.
I used to think I was paranoid to think about Alzheimer’s before 40, but then I saw “A Moment to Remember” and really freaked out!
Anyone remember Ginia Bellafante diss-ing GoTs first season in the New York times in 2011?
Neil Genzlinger’s unenthusiastic reviews of season 2 and 3?
(http://www.pdptr.com/2012/03/brief-history-of-new-york-times-hatred.html)
Well times have changed! For the last month or so NYT has had:
Lena Headey, Cersei in ‘Game of Thrones,’ Has Her Own Power Moves JULY 5, 2017
Before ‘Game of Thrones’ Returns, Let’s Revisit Season 1 JUNE 29, 2017
‘Game of Thrones’ Season 6 Finale: Setting Up the Endgame JUNE 26, 2016
Front page of the Arts page today, July 9th.
Also a Notable Deaths article too. I am tired of the GoT-death-SQUIRREL!!! (reference movie UP!) deal, gotten to be kind of an adolescent tomato surprise.
Seems more to come in the NYT.
Ginevra,
I’ve never seen it. Will add to my exceedingly long queue. 😉 Have you watched Away From Her, with Julie Christie? It’s based on a short story by Alice Munro, The Bear Comes Over the Mountain, and is absolutely stunning.
dragonbringer,
Sorry to be so late to the party, but in one of your earlier posts you said the show focuses on Dany’s father the Mad King (bad), never mentioning her brother Rhaegar (good). That simply isn’t true.
Off the top of my head: Jorah mentions Rhaegar in S2, comparing Dany to him, in S3 (“Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar died.” – a direct quote from the books), and in S5 Barri tells Dany a lovely story about how Rhaegar, despite being the Crown Prince, used to mix with common people, sing for them – a show-only thing but meant to show Rhaegar in a good light to the viewers. iirc, Barri even compared Dany to her bother, not their father.
Rhaegar was undeniably better than the mad, paranoid, cruel Mad King, but how “good” was he actually? He abandoned his wife (daughter of a LP) and children to run away with the daughter of another LP, who was betrothed to yet another LP, plunging the realm into civil war that ended the Targaryen dynasty (and killed his fellow runaway’s father and brother).
The Baratheon propaganda, of course, is that he was an abductor and rapist. That might not turn out to be true – Lyanna Stark might’ve been a willing participant because of twue luv or desire to escape being married to Bobby B or prophecy or whatever.
The only way to vindicate Rhaegar’s actions – which seemed rash and disastrous to the realm at the time – is to discover now that he was right all along. He had to abduct/elope with Lyanna Stark to fulfill a prophecy and bring the Prince that Was Promised to this world. Otherwise Rhaegar’s actions are just moronic and one big mistake.
FYI, I don’t think the books or show will have just one “saviour” figure but at least three, maybe more (Dany, Jon and… maybe Bran/Tyrion), each contributing in their own, unique ways. It’s about putting aside petty enmities to band together to face the real, existential threat. I also think GRRM or D&D will never spell out “who was AAR/TPTWP/TSTMTW/Last Hero”. So the fandom can keep on speculating and argumenting about that forever. 😀
Good spot! I’m always on the lookout for such repetition or “mirror image” scenes; I assume they are deliberate, even if it turns out they were coincidental. (Lots of astute viewers picked up on the simalarities between the overhead shot of Dany’s “crowd surfing” in the middle of the “Mhysa!”-chanting throng, and Jon Snow’s emergence from the throng of dead and wounded bodies in BoB…but I think the showrunners or Sapochnik said it wasn’t intentional.)
An amateur psychologist could have a field day analyzing the Jaime + Brienne relationship from each side’s perspective. I have no idea what I’m talking about, but based on GRRM’s comment (?? something about the human heart in conflict with itself??), I wonder if part of Jaime is a self-loathing lout who embraces his bad rep vs. the other, aspirational side – the “honorable” man that Brienne brings out in him.
His “Cersei-fixated” persona is a dirtbag who’ll push a kid out of a window, and nonchalantly admit it to the kid’s mother. His “Brienne-uplifted” self is a gallant man who’ll jump into a bear pit without a sword and missing a hand to save a friend.
(I’ll have to go back and watch their Riverrun scene; as I recall she gave a wonderful little speech addressing him as “Ser Jaime”, and reminding him that she knows he has honor in him: she has seen it.)
As for Brienne, as a dime-store shrink I’d say she’s unable to allow herself to admit her feelings. I go back to the pre-Purple Wedding exchange between Brienne and Cersei, and Brienne’s “deer in the headlights” look when Cersei’s question/statement “But you love him…” left her speechless.
Is it a comedy or a tragedy that these two are so burdened by their compromised self-images that they can’t come right out and declare themselves, but have to use the gift of a sword as a metaphor?
Rambling Amateur Psychoanalysis Over
Thanks for the kind welcome back. Been away on holiday – doing what the Hou… sorry, Rory McCann likes to do: sailing in Scotland! (Thank you, Pidgeon, for your links to the Rory interviews!) It was amazing, and also a bit of an adventure (our boat got a bit too famous with Scottish Waterways staff and a couple of local RNLIs… But nobody was hurt. Well, except the boat, but she’s fixed now.)
As a self-professed genre snob, I will now ignore my (misguided) impression based on a two-line synopsis of “Away from Her”, and add it to my watch list based on your recommendation.
I need to constantly remind myself not to prejudge a movie or show in reliance on a blurb, or because its topic sounds boring. (Example: “Juno” – teen faces unexpected pregnancy. Sounded trite, but I loved it when I saw it. Four times. )
Ten Bears,
I think your “amateur psychoanalysis” take is pretty accurate. It’s pretty obvious in the show that Cersei brings out the bad in him and Brienne the good.
I know you haven’t read the books but without spoiling too much, Jaime ditched Cersei long ago in the books… Well, tbh, we don’t know if he’ll go back to her in the possibly forthcoming books, so there’s that. I doubt it, though.
Based on book info, my take is that Jaime has been a state of arrested development ever since he served and then killed the Mad King. It was a traumatic experience for him, all his youthful idealism about knighthood, oaths, honour shattered, then that one fateful moment – which Jaime views as his best, most heroic, most knightly deed, and then everybody (especially Ned Stark) seemed to judge and vilify him for killing the king they wanted dead. So teenager Jaime reacted like a teenager: “You all think I’m a shit? OK, I will be a shit.” That suited Cersei just fine, she got her loyal lapdog.
Jaime’s failure at war, imprisonment, his roadtrip with Brienne and most of all, losing his sword hand force him to grow up. He’s not quite there yet, even in the books, but he’s on his way. The show is bending and stretching the timeline but I think the end result will be pretty much the same.
Ten Bears,
Oh, and Brienne addressing Jaime as “Ser Jaime” first happened in S3. Forget which episode, but it was after their dinner scene with Roose Bolton, where Roose makes clear he’ll send Jaime to KL but not Brienne. I think it was in the next episode he goes to say goodbye to Brienne before leaving and she, for the first time, calls him “Ser Jaime”. Aah, the feels… (He then, of course turns back and rescues her from the bear pit – one of my all time favourite one-liners from Jaime in the books didn’t make the show because the sequence was done differently in the show but oh, well, you win some, you lose some.)
How very true ! Overcoming the singularity of one’s family’s unhappiness is probably key to surviving it. And thriving. Which you have obviously managed to do rather marvelously.
I could not agree more with you.
Even with this putrefied hatred lying in her heart, she still confided in (and trusted) Tyrion much more than she does in Jaime. On a very visceral level, Cersei and her baby brother “get” each other which is why they are so ruthlessly talented at devastating each other, be it with words or with deeds.
I would go so far as to say that Tyrion does love his sister, in his own pathological way. Tysha, Shae, Sansa, Daenerys… Famously, the younger Lannister is a sucker for drop-dead gorgeous women with a tale of woe (dead parent, rape, etc.) and a need to be rescued from or guided out of this vicious cruel world. “Broken things”, like his sister. The woman whose love he desperately chased but could never feel.
Cersei is Tyrion’s first hearbreak and their relationship as well as their respective personalities are profoundly shaped by it.
(I might even be tempted to draw a parallel between the Cersei/Tyrion rapport and the Jon/Catelyn and Jon/Sansa relationships in this regard…)
Ha ha ! Too true ! But even they have their Pon farr so watch out ^^
Ten Bears,
That is an excellent interpretation !
I do wonder though : does Jaime’s attitude change that much depending on whether he is with Cersei or with Brienne ?
I have always viewed Jaimed as a fundamentally and intelligently pragmatic character; he does whatever needs to be done to save himself and those he loves. Period. I cannot shake the belief that he would push a child out of window to ensure Brienne’s survival or jump into a bearpit to rescue Cersei if necessary. All of that is the same to him.
Jaime does not think in terms or honour; he thinks in terms of purpose and efficiency. That is something he has in common with Littlefinger and it is why both those characters are so bloody good at getting under the Starks’ skin, confounding them to the point of rage, to the point of physical violence : Catelyn throwing papers at Baelish’s head, Robb coming close to unleashing Grey Wind on Jaime, Ned choking Littlefinger, Catelyn wanting to bash Jaime’s head with a rock, Edmure attempting to throw himself at the Lion under the tent, etc. The Direwolves’ (and Trouts’) uber principled philosophy always crumbles in the face of pure pragmatism and unsavoury truths.
The extent and manifestation of Jaime’s devotion is the same whether it is directed at Brienne or Cersei. The one main difference is that both women do not expect or accept the same time of behaviour from him. Brienne would forbid him to throw a child out of a window for her sake (though she might allow it for her kids’, if she had any… Who knows ?); Cersei did not. But Jaime’s impulses and drive remain the same.
Therein lies the genius of his narrative arc, in my opinion. Jaime might “redeem” himself without ever having an epiphany, withouth ever doing penance. Without ever really changing on a fundamental level.
He is a character whose “redemption” could happen simply by switching side. His ruthlessness and blunt efficiency would thus become palatable to us simply because he uses them for the sake of the “right” people (aka characters we like and approve of). The lies we tell ourselves, the things we do… For love 😉
Ten Bears,
One more thing re: Cersei & Jaime. I love Lena Heady’s comment in that interview.
“She (emotionally) vampires him.” I think that is so accurate.
That is not to excuse Jaime and absolve him of all his bad deeds (let’s see… incest, adultery, treason; attempted murder of a child to cover up the previous; attacking Ned Stark & his men ditto… )
Jaime still had free will, he wasn’t and isn’t an innocent victim of Cersei’s manipulation and “evilness”. He didn’t have to become his sister’s lover, he didn’t have to do her bidding etc. So Jaime needs to grow a pair, admit his mistakes and culpability, “be the man he was meant to be”, as Tywin said in S1, though I think Jaime’s (and by now, our) interpretation is different from Tywin’s.
Sorry to go on about Jaime. I just find him one of the most interesting characters because book knowledge, and I’m intrigued if the show will go there. The show has kind of reversed Jaime’s and Cersei’s roles. In the books, Jaime and his arc are more important, have depth, Cersei is just a stupid cartoon villain.
That said, I think it has been a good choice for the show to flesh out Cersei and make her more complex, even at the expense of Jaime. Book Cersei is comedy gold in her arrogance and stupidity but show Cersei is actually a tragedy.
I think a couple of others (ACME, Wolfish?) commented on this. How Cersei’s and Tyrion’s relationship is a tragedy because they’re very alike (and Jaime is the odd one out), and I can’t forget some of their scenes in S2. There was some secret bond and they almost reached out to each other… but not quite. And now it’s too late. A tragedy.
Sean C.,
Lysa didn’t believe Sansa when she said she was a virgin.
To follow up on what you wrote about Show!Cersei as a tragic figure + Wolfish’s observations about unhappy families:
I attribute Cersei’s bitterness and her hate for Tyrion to her upbringing by a cold-hearted father who taught her to hate her little brother, abandoned her at age 9, and then sold her off like livestock at 19.
When Oberyn told the story about Cersei torturing infant Tyrion in his crib, blaming him for killing her mother, it was almost like hearing Tywin parroted through his daughter:
In S3e1, when Tyrion asks why he’s being denied his birthright, Tywin lashes out:
“You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning.”
It’s no mystery where little Cersei got her “he killed my mother” mindset from.
Then, Tywin abandons Cersei at age 9, taking Jaime with him to the capital while leaving Cersei behind at Casterly Rock – a virtual orphan with no guidance, but with a warped sense of entitlement and privilege.
Finally, Cersei’s scenes with Robert and Ned in S1 show that teenage Cersei was initially enamored with Robert and hopeful for a happy married life, but Robert was obsessed with a corpse and used Cersei as a punching bag. In Robert’s candid “confession” 17 years after their marriage he admitted to her there was never a chance for a happy marriage.
As far as Show!Cersei, I see her as the tragic victim/product of consecutive loveless and abusive relationships. If she’s a cartoon villain in the books (I haven’t read them yet), it appears the showrunners decided to add more nuance to her character. If so, I’m glad they did.
I wrote a long long answer but it got lost. Never mind, I agree with most of your points about Dany and Tyrion, Tyrion and Cersei, Indian independence path (it was really great to read the points of the insider), etc. Hope, that this comment will make it through and also that this discussion will continue on other theads.
Shes ten times worse in the books but her background reasons are clearer. She sorta thinks of herself as Tywin 2.0. Telling Robert that SHE should wear the armor was total truth, esp when you look at her gowns, she often does. Anyhoo, theres a new YT video fron Alt Shift X that goes into this in great detail. I think her tragedy will end up with Jaime being the Valonqhar.
Ten Bears,
Like I said, I’m glad they made show Cersei more nuanced. Explored her frustrations more fully.
That said, after reading the books, the oft-repeated adage that somehow excuses her behaviour and actions, that she loves her children, rings a bit hollow. I can’t watch her scenes with her children (esp Tommen) without thinking she’s all the time manipulating him for her own ends. True, she loves her children (and Jaime), but only because, for her, they are extensions of herself. Her love is the greedy, possessive, jealous, dissapproving kind. Her children are her ticket to power, which is her main desire. She’s been so traumatised by being powerless – being shipped off like a piece of meat to marry someone for political reasons (like most noble maidens are in Westeros) – that she has become power-crazy.
Aah, I’m not explaining this well, going on a rant.
Just to come clean, I should mention that Jaime, the soiled knight, is my favourite character. That is not to say I approve of everything he’s done, far from it. I just find his journey and dilemmas intriguing. Plus NCW is sexy af, hahaha! 😀
ACME,
This could be a unpopular opinion but I much prefer the way ShowJorah advises Dany, yes he may love her but to me whenever she believed some bullshit he cut it away and was upfront and honest with her. Jorah to me always seemed kind but firm with her and he treated her like a person he was advising instead of necessarily a Targaryen. There were times in the beginning when she didn’t always follow his advice but when she realised he was right, she said he was and started listening to him more even when she would of thought her mind was made up. I think personally the skill ShowJorah has is being able to reach and bring out the naive kind hearted frightened girl in S1 because Jorah knew her then, no one else on her Team did, they only knew her when she was strong. So I’ve always thought Jorah understands Dany the most, even when she doesn’t quite know what she wants, Jorah does know what she wants and the best way to get it.
That’s just my opinion anyway, I could be wrong.
Ten Bears,
Oh, one minor point. Tywin did not abandon Cersei at 9 yr old. I don’t know where you got that idea. AFAIK or remember, the show hasn’t mentioned it at all.
In the books, and implied in the show, Tywin was mostly in KL, being the Hand of the King, even before Cersei and Jaime were born. Seven years later, their mother died giving birth to Tyrion. It’s unclear what happened between that and Tywin bringing Cersei to court, aged 12 (Jaime was squiring elsewhere). Being “abandoned” by her father at a young age (most of her childhood?) still stands, but I just don’t understand where you got age 9. It seems to me her father wasn’t much in her life before she was brought to court age 12. Maybe I’m confusing book and show info.
Mel,
I think the problem with Jorah is that he still sees Dany as the frightened child who was forced to marry Khal Drogo. Plus sees himself as a better alternative. It’s all a bit eww. He’s witnessed the birth of the dragons and Dany’s increasing confidence and power and has become a “believer”, but for him, she’ll always be the frightened child who relied on him.
No wonder he doesn’t like others Dany might want to advise her, others she might rely on, others who treat her as an adult, not a frightened girl.
He needs to let go of the old relationship and truly appreciate what Dany is now.
(I don’t think he’s going to die of greyscale before he and Dany meet again. It’s going to be interesting to see, on what terms, what circumstances.)
This sounds amazing! 😊
I agree. As much as he luuuurves her (lol), he is willing to point out when she is wrong, even if it displeases her. He puts her best interests before his own jealousies (not forgetting his previous connections, of course) and puts his life on the line several times for her. Heck, he even resisted his urge to throttle Daario when he had the chance (😉), and Daario reciprocated by saving his ass in the scuffle at Dosh Khaleen.
It is funny to try and compare Dany against Tyrion, and to examine their intentions against each other. Both of them are much worse or rather greyer characters in the books.
Tyrion has fantasies about raping Cersei and Tommen, he rapes a slave. He is a very bitter man in ADWD, he wants revenge. Dany tortures children, although her main intention is still to bring stability to Meereen. GRRM has recently commented that Dany’s last chapter shows she will become much more ruthless. What does that mean when she was already torturing children before?
In the show Dany’s character is much closer to her book counterpart. She is shown to sometimes have an impulsive ruthless streak, but it gives her character some depth.
Tyrion on the other hand has literally turned into a joke, his character basically makes silly jokes and drinks wine, since Tywin’s death.
After the battle for Meereen, Greyworm kills those two Harpy supporters from ancient families, and he leaves the slave master. Tyrion is so sympathetic and understanding towards the man who brought him as a slave. Tyrion has such a golden, bleeding-heart at this stage that Jon is properly more ruthless then him now. I am pretty sure show Tyrion wouldn’t have executed Olly.
What I am trying to say is that at least Dany still has some character.
Yes, thank you haha! One more week!
In the books, an annulment requires the consent of the High Septon. Which is to say, Sansa will not be getting an annulment or actually getting married again in TWOW, because it’s impossible for her to actually obtain an annulment within the rules created.
The show’s writers had to throw out those rules in order to make the Sansa Poole plot happen.
Mel,
Excellent point indeed !
You are right, Jorah may have been the most “frontal” of all of Daenerys’s advisors, the most willing to go toe-to-toe with her without using the filter of her family’s history or reputation. For all his Khaleeeeeeeeeesi adulation, he has always remained grounded enough to address her mistakes and miscalculations head-on.
Perhaps his years of working for Varys helped him separate the woman (whom he adores) and the ruler (whom he had to spy on and has disagreements with).
Tyrion could be officially declared dead. After all, he has not been seen in Westeros for quite some time…
Sean C.,
It’s not all that clear and cut and dried. It seems an unconsummated marriage can be set aside – the excuse LF and Roose Bolton used in S5. There was even that exchange between LF and Roose, where LF offered to have Sansa examined to prove her virginity (how would LF know?) but Roose wasn’t interested. Sansa’s and Tyrion’s marriage was, indeed, unconsummated, to allow this back door.
Also, in the books, LF initially expects Tyrion to be caught and executed, so the widow, Sansa, would be free to marry again. It doesn’t work that way, the Imp escapes and disappears, so other loopholes and stretches of custom/law have to be found.
At this point, I don’t think it’s about “law” (and that is nebulous enough in Westeros), it’s about expediency and what you can get away with. Don’t forget that the social contract and the state have collapsed in Westeros.
From S4e10:
Tywin: When you were nine years old, I was called to the capital. I decided to take your brother with me and not you. You insisted that you would not be left at Casterly Rock under any circumstances. And if you recall–
Cersei: I’m not interested in hearing another one of your smug stories about the time you won. This isn’t going to be one of those times.
I agree that Cersei doesn’t love her children, she almost has an abusive relationships with her children, I think this is very clear in the show, with the whole High Sparrow storyline. It is sometimes frustrating to see people getting mad at Tommen, when it is his mother who placed him in a helpless position. Cersei made Tommen feel completely helpless, that is one of the worst things you can do to your children.
She is definitely a much more nuanced character in the show. In the books she never loved or care for Robert, she deceived him right from the start. The only man who she ever liked despite Jaime is Rhaegar. And that is because she felt that he was the only man who could have been worthy of her.
It is often discussed how Cersei is in such powerless position as a women, but people completely ignore that men are in the same position within this story. The men also have to enter in arranged marriages against their will, just look at what happen to Robb when he ignored his arranged marriage. Any highborn child is in the same position, so I don’t find Cersei’s case extra special.
In fact Cersei is really in the top special elite, she still has more power than 95% of other Westerosi inhabitants. In season two Tyrion speaks about a time when she had a servant girl flogged and the girl lost an eye, when she was nine years old, so she has always had power above others.
Just look at how Margaery approaches her marriages, she uses all of her attributes available to her in order to gain some power from the allience.
talvikorppi,
OMG. THAT SOUNDS AMAZING!!!
I’m really jealous, but also really happy for you. 🙂 🙂 🙂
talvikorppi,
Is it, perchance, my own favorite Jaime line… “I dreamed of you”?
talvikorppi,
Welcome back. We’ve missed you. Having visited the Islands and Highlands, I can only imagine the beauty of sailing around Scotland. Well done, you.
Dame of Mercia,
“in the book scenario Littlefinger blames another character for Lysa’s death (rather than it being ascribed to suicide as in the show). Sansa could have cleared the other character but she doesn’t….So she’s doing what she has in order to survive – show Sansa did say she had done that last season of course. Whether book Sansa becomes a supreme strategist still has to be revealed but … I have had a bit of a Queen Elizabeth I of England feeling about Sansa. Real Queen Elizabeth had a (potentially) creepy uncle, Thomas Seymour, and Littlefinger is a creepy uncle in both books and show and real Queen Elizabeth and Sansa were both virtually “house” prisoners at times of their lives.”
Yes, and she’s also involved with some questionable LF-approved potioning of Robin Arryn with SweetSleep, which if mis-dosed could result in his death. As to Elizabeth I, there are minor commonalities. But Sansa as hostage is mainly there in the first three books as the one continuous POV of the fascinating goings-on in KIngs Landing. Creepy uncles are quite common in history. Elizabeth, of course, was a royal, but the second daughter and third in line for the throne. Sansa has no claim at all. If Sansa were the second daughter and in the line of succession, I’d find that quite parallel. Also, Elizabeth had to tread especially y carefully because of the tumultuous religious climate. Even more important, Elizabeth was famously the Virgin Queen, and Sansa has been married, twice on the show and, sadly, is no virgin..
Inga,
I’m now sorry to be deprived of one of your wonderful comments!
I also lost a long comment last night, and then re-wrote it in Word. Tried to re-post three times, and now it’s trapped in Spam. Note to self: If it’s longer than one short paragraph, compose offscreen and save.
ACME,
There would be no reason for the powers that be to declare Tyrion dead (if such a mechanism even exists). He’s a wanted man (and has been absent for only a few months).
Yes, it is, in the books.
The show threw out the book canon to make Sansa Poole happen.
That’s just it, Littlefinger doesn’t say anything about loopholes or stretches of custom/law. He straightforwardly states that his plan to marry Sansa to Harry will have to wait until Tyrion is dead. Which, since Tyrion is not going to be dying anytime soon, means that part of the plan isn’t going to happen. And in any event, other events are almost certainly going to overtake his planning, since the marriage isn’t supposed to happen until some point in the future; it’s not something he’s planning to have happen in the next day.
Wolfish,
I do that usually, but this time I was writing on my new tablet and I am still not quite used to that. Nothing really important. I just wanted to point, that although Tyrion hates Cersei, he would probably want to prove to her that she was wrong all the time and desire for this kind of satisfaction might withold him from orchestrating her stragthforward assasination or something similar: he would prefer her living and regretting her mistakes than dying with the sense that she was right to hate him.
But I was wondering about that Lithuanian house music you mentioned: you are not from Lithuania, right?
Ah, thank you. I stand corrected. I was confusing book stuff with show stuff. You are quite right when it comes to the show, I apologise for confusing the two.
It’s really valuable getting “show-only” people’s take on things to get an idea of how it all looks to (heh) “outsiders”. I hope I haven’t book-spoiled you too much… But maybe some book hints explain why so many really like Jaime and look forward to… better things for him.
I’m no book purist. I mostly like how D&D have adapted GRRM’s work, and I love the books and I love the show even though there are divergencies.
OK, I grumble about Jaime’s storyline, hahaha! but I can see why it has been done the way it has. For one, in the books, Jaime has a story, an arc, Cersei is just a stupid villain. In the show, it’s Cersei who has the story and arc, Jaime is just a supporting actor in her story. After the S3 Harrenhall Jaime&Brienne bath scene and the bear pit scene, the showrunners haven’t been that interested in Jaime as a character, only as a convienient helper to Cersei. Maybe a foil, but we need to see more.
Sean C.,
Yes, my point of expediency and the general breaking down of the social contract and laws (which were murky, unclear in any caae) and the state. Which you left out from your quote of my words. Well done.
In all fairness, Cersei seems to be the only person who cares about Joffrey’s and even Tywin’s murders. However, the Lioness is severely weakened and isolated. The rest of the Westerosi “establishment” (the High Sparrow, Tommen, even Kevan and Pycelle before their demise…) appears not to give a flying fig about Tyrion and his whereabouts.
So it would not be that bizarre for whoever is in charge of declaring people dead (ha ! What a job !) to do just that for the younger Lannister. Especially if s/he receives a lump sum as reward for his/her efforts…
So you do not think the Knights of the Vale are going to intervene in the North ?
Inga,
I agree with your point about Tyrion and Cersei; I, too, think Tyrion might prefer to see Cersei live with her regrets and the bitter knowledge that her hatred of him was totally unjustified.
And no, I’m definitely not from Lithuania, although I’d love to visit sometime! I was born and raised in Brazil. My parents are American, and I have dual citizenship. We definitely did not live in an American enclave, though, so growing up my mother was the only person with whom I spoke English. (She was the “foreigner” in the world of my childhood.) Because of grave economic troubles in Brazil, she decided to return to the U.S. when I was 11. However, she never re-accustomed herself to it—the country had changed a lot between 1968 and 1981! She went back to Brazil in 1988, and has now spent far more of her life there than here.
But I digress. The reason I mentioned Lithuanian house music is because I find myself listening to a lot of Donatello and Kastis Torrau in the wee hours. 🙂
Sean C.,
The show has discussed the importance of consummating a marriage when Robb was explaining the bedding ceremony to Talisa at the Red Wedding. “Without the bedding ceremony, there’s no real proof that the bride and groom consummated their marriage.”
Boy, does that suck when it happens… sorry to hear.
Wolfish‘s advice is wise.
I, for one, have never learnt and keep on typing away directly on the board, hoping for the best each time I press “post comment”. I like to live dangerously 😛
(*added to playlist*)
Of course it is. 🙂
I laugh and nearly faint every time I read it.
He never tells Brienne what his dream/nightmare was.
Wolfish,
Thank you for your answer. It’s really fun to learn that music from my tiny and rainy country is known on the other side of the world. And if you ever decide to come to Lithuanian you can stay at my place (seriously).
It’s probably the best thing about GoT: here we are – people from all the corners of the world sharing the same passion to the show (and books) and finding so many more things we have in common.
talvikorppi,
FYI. I tried to edit/add earlier that trying to make a coherent chronology is difficult. Especially since they “aged up” characters for the show.
I can inagine that any attempt to reconcile Book!chronogy with Show!chronology would make one’s head explode.
ACME,
The only person who could declare Tyrion dead would be the king and/or the High Septon, realistically. Neither of them would have any interest in doing that.
If they do, it won’t play out in the manner Littlefinger’s plan suggests, because as he himself explains it, it’s something that he envisions happening over a long stretch of time.
But beyond that, there’s no way the Arryns are going to be the decisive factor in defeating the Boltons like they were in the show. That latter plotline is accelerating to its endgame quite quickly, and Littlefinger’s plans have barely gotten underway, and there’s a bunch of other stuff set up to happen in the Vale.
ghost of winterfell,
Ghost will circumnavigate Planetos before he gets any screentime. Pretty sure the last scene of the series will be of Ghost discovering America.
I know you really dislike Sansa’s plot in the show, but let’s be fair here. Marriage annulment is not impossible, it’s just trickier than in the show. I know someone in particular who may have a few things to say about your claims that marriage annulment is “impossible” for Sansa… Petyr Baelish in the books! Unless you really think the Harry the Heir plot is going nowhere. Hell, even if it is going nowhere and Petyr’s purported plan to marry them and raise the Arryn banners to take Winterfell fails (unlikely, given the show’s equivalent,) are you saying he had no plan to annul the marriage before the rest of the plan could happen? That doesn’t sound like Littlefinger to me, especially in the books.
As for your idea that he was just waiting for Tyrion to die because it’s a long-term plan… I don’t know where you get that from. Yes, he’s expecting Tyrion to be declared dead, but this is Littlefinger we’re talking about; he can make that happen, through trickery and innate creepiness. This isn’t a long-term plan. In TWOW’s released Alayne chapter, Sansa’s already executing the first stages of the plan, seducing Harry. In Westeros, these things don’t have to take that long, especially when politics are involved. Sean, call me a mad man, but I say this is happening, and it’s happening in TWOW, not in the far-off future. Whether Sansa ends up marrying Harry or not (I say yes, but I’m not as sure of this as I am of everything that follows,) Littlefinger certainly has a plan to make the marriage happen legally, and Sansa will definitely take the Knights of the Vale to Winterfell. The show changed the path, but not the destination; that’s always been the D&D way, especially where main characters are concerned.
So you’re still betting on Stannis definitely, unambiguously winning at Winterfell? It’s not like I expect a quick tragic-comic defeat as in the show, but even if Book|Stannis takes the castle for a brief period of time, Sansa, Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale have every in-universe reason to still want to take Winterfell, even if it’s Stannis holding it. Even from a reader’s perspective, Stannis may not be hated like the Boltons, but after he burns Shireen (yes, she can travel to Winterfell when Stannis sort-of takes it) I think people won’t complain much. Whether it is Ramsay killing Stannis after he takes Winterfell and believes he has defeated all the Boltons and allies, or the Knights of the Vale, Stannis is going down. I don’t know where this idea comes from that he’s end-game material and he’ll hold Winterfell until the Others come. But hey, I will be surprised if that happens, and that’s not a bad thing!
Littlefinger has never said anything about annulling Sansa’s marriage in the books.
GRRM’s been explicit about what an annulment requires: it would involve Sansa making an application to the High Septon. She’s a fugitive, so she can’t make such a request, and the current High Septon is, we can all agree, not somebody who can be bought (nor would he have any particular reason to grant an annulment to her, since she’s believed to be a murderer).
Making Harry come around to the idea is indeed part of the plan, but that doesn’t mean the wedding is right around the corner.
It seems most likely to me, based on what’s been set up, that various curveballs (such as whatever Shadrich the Mad Mouse ends up doing) are going to significantly shift the political terrain in the Vale in the coming chapters.
I didn’t say anything about Stannis one way or another. As far as that goes, I don’t know what precisely will happen with him. There’s at least debatable symbolism that he’ll last at least long enough to meet Dany in the books, but that could go either way.
Sean C.,
You said the situation in Winterfell is getting resolved way before the Knights of the Vale can arrive, so I assumed that meant Stannis winning. Sorry if I misunderstood. Maybe you just meant Jon?
Luka Nieto,
I’d say that Stannis is most likely to win the battle, simply because if he loses, the North basically ceases to exist as a political/fighting force (unlike in the show, basically all of the Northern houses are currently all-in with Stannis or encamped at Winterfell already with the Boltons in a snowed-in scenario where it’s pretty clear nobody is going to be allowed to walk away). But yeah, even if the Boltons manage to stamp out all Northern resistance to their rule in the books, Jon and the Wildlings would get there way before anything could ever happen with the Arryns. We’re getting at least two chapters devoted to a tourney, from the looks of it, on top of that there’s a bunch of other stuff set up with Shadrich, the Royces, etc. that has to play out.
My tinfoil bodysuit speculation further distorts the picture. Sansa won’t be leading anyone north and she’s not getting hitched again (no way, Harry), regardless of LF’s shenanigans. She’s getting out of the Vale with help and LF’s plan will be exposed. I won’t repeat the details…but Sansa has several interested parties conveniently lurking in the area. If anything, forces from the Vale will be tailing/tracking her as Sansa’s Vale-busting gang heads north. During this excursion, the Neck (Crannogmen) will matter.
(In the book, folks going thru the Neck won’t have a free pass)
Regarding Stannis…he’ll weaken the Boltons/Frey during the battle north of WF (Crofter’s village/Long Lake) but will be defeated by betrayal or weather and Asha/Theon will escape. The Boltons will suffer the northern conspiracy but may not implode…leaving the door open for others from the north, east and south to gather together…
Wouldn’t it be fun if the Crannogmen were the force from the south that provided the tipping point for WF? (Inspired by Robb/Cat’s letter, led by HR with Sansa at a secure location) Or maybe they’ll stay south and sack the Twins.
But the weather, man….the weather is worsening as the WWs head south! Winter has arrived! How are these battles going to be fought?
And poor Shireen will burn because of Selyse (for Stannis) and Mel (for Jon/Stannis) at CB before Jon’s tumultuous rez. And Tycho will witness it all…and eventually inform Davos at Eastwatch.
My 2c.
Inga,
Thank you so, SO much!!! And if you’re ever in the redwoods of northern California, contact me. (Seriously… There’s a bed in the She-Cave, and I love to play tour guide!)
Lonely Cat and I met before the GoT Concert Experience in Portland, and we’ll definitely be meeting again. It’s so true that many of us have far more in common than GoT!
Markus Stark,
Your comments are always something negative?
How doesn’t that make sense? Dany had been nothing but good to him and she has made him feel like something, like someone important, with value, and feelings.
its not illogical for him to have feelings.
Ginevra,
Awww, this scene made me cry when it first aired, and after at least five rewatches, it still does. I love both these characters, as well as their portrayers. Saying goodbye next year (or in 2019) won’t be easy.
Edward,
According to major spoilers
Jon Snowed,
Holy shit I just seen this but that’s insane! Do you think it’ll be accurate?
It’s from the original leaker “awayforthelads” who provided the outline for the season (supported by articles on here and trailer, plus other spoilers). Amazingly there are also leaked scripts out there, way too much has leaked this season so I would consider it 98% likely.
Jon Snowed,
Well that’ll certainly be an interesting turn of events. It’ll be cool to see Dany in a position of contention with those closest to her. I wonder who the “certain characters” are though.
I don’t want to spoil too much for you (as I kind of wish I didn’t read the leaked plot outline or 4chan leaks myself) thankfully the outline was last year so I’ve forgotten some stuff.
If you are desperate to know, you can read it here but I would suggest as we are so close to finding out (in the next couple of weeks) you hold off if you can
Jon Snowed,
Holy shit lmao. That’s going to be quite the scene. Do you think Dany actually will go through a phase where she slowly descends into madness?
And I’ve read the smaller outline for the entire season back when it was leaked in like October. But from what you read, do you think the season is going to be great? I liked majority of what I read.
Yeah I’m really pumped for this season, frantically trying to keep up to date with all the articles Watchers are publishing and energised by the second trailer. In many ways I am glad I read the outline last year as it meant I have forgotten some stuff and from the trailer and snippets I pick up in comments on here it’s clear there is still plenty I don’t know about which is great.
As for Dany, I’m a little back and forth on her going mad, there are plenty of hints and I did see it going that way as I don’t believe she will survive the entire series so this is a logical out. That said it needs to become more obvious this season for it to happen, if not I don’t see it blowing up in the last six episodes.
Jon Snowed,
You’re right. A lot of this season is shrouded in mystery despite us knowing a few concrete details and developments. That keeps my excitement on ten because even with leaks this series always finds ways to shock the audience.
Additionally, I read a recent interview from Jorah (Ian) that stated his thoughts on Dany becoming evil. He denied any claims of her becoming mad so I’m curious to see if some of these answers from the cast are red herrings. I personally don’t want Dany to become evil out of my affinity for her but it would be a great and twisted plot device.