Guest contributor Locke is back for a second installment of Theories of Ice and Fire. Locke will walk us through popular A Song of Ice and Fire theories, their context and nuances, and how they may be portrayed in Game of Thrones.
By Locke
One of the most frequently discussed yet most mysterious prophecies is that of Cersei’s ‘valonqar’, who is first mentioned in Book 4 of A Song Of Ice And Fire, A Feast For Crows. It has been confirmed that this prophecy will appear in Season 5 – one of the first proper flashback sequences we will see in the series. This increases its potential significance all the more.
I want to discuss this prophecy in detail, running through the potential candidates for who this ‘valonqar’ may be, based on textual evidence and theories. I will then attempt to draw my own conclusions. Naturally this topic includes major book spoilers.
So the best place to start is with the prophecy itself. Let’s revisit the famous passage from A Feast For Crows, in which Cersei visits the tent of Maggy the Frog as a young girl, with her friend Melara Hetherspoon. It is worth noting before reading that “Maggy” is her nickname, but that it is actually clear this refers to her being a ‘maegi’ – similar to Mirri Maz Duur in A Game Of Thrones. This later conversation between Cersei and Qyburn spells it out for us:
“The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.”
“Maegi?”
“Is that how you say it? The woman would suck a drop of blood from your finger, and tell you what your morrows held.”
“Bloodmagic is the darkest kind of sorcery. Some say it is the most powerful as well.” (AFFC, Chapter 12, Cersei)
We must therefore take this use of blood magic and Maggy’s words very seriously. Here is the passage itself:
The old woman’s eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. (AFFC, Chapter 12, Cersei)
This is interesting, knowing that Mirri Maz Duur had also studied her darkest magics in Asshai, in the far east.
She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul.
“Begone,” she told the girls, in a croaking whisper.
“We came for a foretelling,” young Cersei told her.
“Begone,” croaked the old woman, a second time.
“We heard that you can see into the morrow,” said Melara. “We just want to know what men we’re going to marry.”
“Begone,” croaked Maggy, a third time.
Listen to her, the queen would have cried if she had her tongue. You still have time to flee. Run, you little fools!
The girl with the golden curls put her hands upon her hips.
“Give us our foretelling, or I’ll go to my lord father and have you whipped for insolence.”
“Please,” begged Melara. “Just tell us our futures, then we’ll go.”
“Some are here who have no futures,” Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice.
This alludes to Melara’s death shortly after the visit to the tent, falling down a well. Many believe this was Cersei’s doing – but that is a separate discussion, and best sidelined for now. The important thing to note is that Maggy accurately predicted her imminent death.
She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer.
“Come, if you will not go. Fools. Come, yes. I must taste your blood.”
Melara paled, but not Cersei. A lioness does not fear a frog, no matter how old and ugly she might be. She should have gone, she should have listened, she should have run away. Instead she took the dagger Maggy offered her, and ran the twisted iron blade across the ball of her thumb. Then she did Melara too.
In the dim green tent, the blood seemed more black than red. Maggy’s toothless mouth trembled at the sight of it. “Here,” she whispered, “give it here.” When Cersei offered her hand, she sucked away the blood with gums as soft as a newborn babe’s. The queen could still remember how queer and cold her mouth had been.
“Three questions may you ask,” the crone said, once she’d had her drink. “You will not like my answers. Ask, or begone with you.”
Now here comes the important part:
“When will I wed the prince?” she asked.
“Never. You will wed the king.”
This clearly states that Cersei will marry Robert Baratheon.
Beneath her golden curls, the girl’s face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died.
“I will be queen, though?” asked the younger her.
“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes.
“Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”
This is the first conundrum, presenting us with several options. I will run through candidates for this later in the post.
Anger flashed across the child’s face.
“If she tries I will have my brother kill her.” Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come.
“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.
“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”
These are very clearly Cersei’s three children by Jaime, and all sixteen of Robert Baratheon’s bastards.
That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she’d cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.
The old woman was not done with her, however.
It is strange that Maggy continues speaking, despite Cersei having asked her three questions. This leads me to the conclusion that her continued statements –which are the crucial elements of the prophecy – are still related to the previous question, but more on this later. Here is the crux of the prophecy:
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
“What is a valonqar? Some monster?” The golden girl did not like that foretelling. (AFFC, Chapter 12, Cersei)
Indeed, what is a valonqar?
“It’s High Valyrian, it means little brother.” She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned. (AFFC, Chapter 39)
So from this prophecy, we can conclude that three crucial events will happen that we haven’t reached yet by the end of A Dance With Dragons. The first is a ‘younger queen’ taking all that Cersei holds dear, the second is the crowning and subsequent death of Tommen and Myrcella – as alluded to by golden crowns and golden shrouds – and the third: Cersei’s own death at the hands of the valonqar or “little brother.”
So first, I will address the question of this younger queen. At present there are several options as to who this could be:
1. Margaery Tyrell
Now this would be the first option that springs to mind, given that by the end of A Dance With Dragons, Cersei’s conflict with Margaery has landed her in a terrible predicament, awaiting a trial that could result in both of their deaths. Moreover, Margaery’s influence over Tommen had started to create distance between mother and son.
Yet if we conclude that the things Cersei ‘holds dear’ are her children Tommen and Myrcella, her regency, and despite its tensions her relationship with Jaime, then we might question just how far Margaery has directly ‘taken’ all these things from her. Much of Cersei’s downfall so far has been the result of her own paranoia and clumsiness, and this more than anything has been the reason she has lost her regency and created a distance between herself and Jaime. Margaery has had nothing to do with Myrcella, nor with Jaime.
What makes this option even more unlikely is that Cersei herself believes Margarey to be the ‘younger queen’, and knowing GRRM’s avoidance of the obvious, this almost certainly makes her a red herring.
2. Daenerys Targaryen
We have all been waiting for Dany to arrive at Westeros and take King’s Landing since book one, so while Margaery is the most obvious ‘younger queen’ in Cersei’s mind, I believe that Dany is the most obvious candidate for the ‘younger queen’ for the readers. GRRM is aware of this, and while it is perfectly possible that she might arrive and ultimately be responsible for Cersei’s downfall, I for one think that this is too obvious and that Dany is the reader’s red herring.
However, it is worth considering Dany in particular because, of all the candidates, she is the one that I feel would display the least mercy to the Lannisters. Knowing her fondness for taking political hostages from her stint in Meereen, it is probable that if Dany took King’s Landing, she would take Myrcella and Tommen as hostages from Cersei, treating them well, but separating them from her mother – an agonising prospect for Cersei. If this were to happen, then the eventual deaths of Tommen and Myrcella are likely to be terrible accidents, akin to the sack of King’s Landing and Gregor Clegane’s murder of Elia Martell’s children, or Rickard Karstark’s disobedient murder of Willem Lannister and Tion Frey.
3. Sansa Stark
Given the rate at which Sansa is ‘learning the game of thrones’, and the fact that she is looking increasingly to become a Queen in the North, it would certainly be rather satisfying for Sansa to be the one to return to King’s Landing and cast down Cersei, the woman who held her prisoner for so long. Sansa is also consistently described as ‘beautiful’ throughout the novels.
I think Sansa is a particularly strong candidate due to her ability to take all three things that Cersei holds dear. Looking at Jaime’s movements at the end of A Dance With Dragons, it seems likely that he will end up serving the north in some shape or form – aiding Brienne and/or Lady Stoneheart. This may well coincide with their finally finding Sansa – a plot arc that has been set up as an oath that both Brienne and Jaime are bound to from as early as A Clash of Kings. Jaime siding with Sansa would ultimately mean his final betrayal of Cersei. Following this, Sansa becoming Queen and separating Cersei from her children are also both conceivable possibilities – though it remains to be seen who Sansa might end up marrying. She is definitely one to watch.
4. Arianne Martell
Arianne is currently being set up to marry Aegon VI in a new political alliance, judging from her recent sample chapter in The Winds of Winter. This would also make her a queen, and as we know, Aegon is imminently looking to conquer King’s Landing. Along with Nymeria Sand, who is about to take the Dornish seat on the Small Council, the Dornish quest for vengeance and Aegon’s desire for the Iron Throne may directly lead to the death of Cersei’s children and Arianne becoming queen.
While the effect this may have on Cersei’s relationship with Jaime seems minimal, it is, however, likely that Aegon will sit the throne for a short while. GRRM has said that several people will sit the Iron Throne before the series ends, and personally I believe that Aegon’s stint will occur, and will both influence and shortly precede Dany’s arrival at Westeros. This makes Arianne a likely candidate for the younger queen. This also ties into the Dornish theme of protecting the children from the spoils of war, which has been heavily foreshadowed to be a pipe dream due to come crashing down at any moment. Beginning with Myrcella’s recent disfigurement, the Dornish playing an unwitting part in the brutal murder of Tommen and Myrcella would fit the theme of their desire for vengeance and power overwhelming their desire for peace, and resulting in the murder of innocents.
There are other candidates that have been mentioned, such as Myrcella Baratheon, Jeyne Westerling (!) and even the young Cersei herself, being responsible for her own downfall. I believe that these are all very unlikely options, though, and that the strongest bets at present are Sansa or Arianne.
[Editor Note: The absence of Arianne from season 5 and presumably the following seasons of Game of Thrones may have ramifications for Arianne fulfilling the prophecy in the novels]
With these potential events in mind, this brings us to the question of the valonqar. Let’s address the candidates for Cersei’s killer:
1. Tyrion Lannister
Cersei, in her hatred and paranoia concerning Tyrion – especially since Tywin’s death – has long believed Tyrion to be the valonqar. She has numerous dreams and thoughts throughout her chapters in A Feast For Crows in which she sees visions of Tyrion breaking into the Red Keep and murdering her.
While Tyrion is indeed Cersei’s ‘little brother’ – both in terms of age and physically as a dwarf – it just seems too crazy that Cersei would have got this one right. And while Tyrion does have a certain hatred for his sister, I personally cannot see him strangling her, especially after the self-loathing and shame he carries about since strangling Shae and murdering his father. This makes him both a kinslayer and a strangler already – two things that he would become again simultaneously by strangling Cersei. I believe that Tyrion has already reached his darkest point and that this is not a place GRRM will return him to. It makes no narrative sense and will only serve as regression for the character.
2. Jaime Lannister
Jaime is the obvious candidate that Cersei is overlooking when she considers who the ‘valonqar’ might be, and is many people’s choice for the fulfiller of this dark prophecy. Cersei’s misinterpretation would be both ironic and tragic, and a rather poetic end for both characters. Yet there is all the evidence to consider:
Indeed, while Jaime is Cersei’s twin, he is still her younger brother.
“Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said.” – Cersei to Eddard (AGOT, Chapter 45, Eddard)
Add to this the numerous textual examples alluding to Cersei and Jaime’s deaths somehow being intertwined within the same narrative arc. Take a look at the following:
Jaime thinks to himself,
“I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.” (ASOS, Chapter 31, Jaime)
Then,
“We will leave this world together, as we once came into it.” (AFFC, Chapter 46, Cersei)
Later, Cersei says,
“If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me.” (ADWD, Epilogue)
Then there are the allusions to Jaime and Cersei being ‘strangers’ to each other. The Stranger is of course, the god representing death and the unknown.
“He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me.” (AFFC, Chapter 12, Cersei)
“I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze.” (AFFC, Chapter 30, Jaime)
But despite all of this, we have to question: is this truly where Jaime’s arc is taking him? His oath to serve his king may soon be compromised by a new oath, to serve Stoneheart or the North – but would this really drive him to become a kinslayer? And he may have completely distanced himself from his sister by the end of A Dance With Dragons, choosing not to come to her aid, but does this really mean he would go so far as killing her? We must also question the redemption arc that Jaime has undergone, and the question of morality. Would he truly kill his own sister in such brutal fashion and upend all the moral progress his character has made?
Also, note this Jaime chapter in A Feast for Crows:
“He slipped his golden hand around his wine cup and raised it up…[He] concentrated on the fare before him, tearing off chunks of bread with his left hand and fumbling at his wine cup with his right.” (AFFC, Chapter 30, Jaime)
Jaime’s golden hand is obviously shaped to have a slight grip around small-ish objects, such as wine glasses, or sword handles. First and foremost, it would not be wide enough to ‘wrap’ around someone’s neck, which would require stretching out one’s hand to a far wider span than is usual, and then applying manual pressure to choke the victim through the action of grip – another quality that the golden hand does not support. The golden hand is only designed to ensure a moderate grip on everyday objects, and is not capable of this sort of action.
Moreover, the very use of the phrase “his hands” wrapping around her throat in the original prophecy by Maggy the Frog is perhaps another suggestion in this direction. Jaime has actually lost one of his hands – and only one of his hands remains. It goes without saying that the golden hand is not an actual hand…and as stated, it is not a hand that is capable of strangulation.
There is one more factor to consider, however. What if Jaime strangling Cersei is an act of release, or of mercy, rather than cold-blooded murder? Have a look again at this part of the prophecy:
“When your tears have drowned you”
Now we could take this to mean Cersei’s own tears, out of grief for her murdered children, and the loss of all that she holds dear. Indeed, we have seen her weep multiple times in her last chapters in A Dance With Dragons, so it is not unreasonable to translate this literally.
But we also know that Cersei has access to the Tears of Lys – the poison that famously killed Jon Arryn. Furthermore, she was prepared to use them on herself and Tommen at the conclusion of the Battle of Blackwater, choosing suicide instead of submission, but of course Tywin arrived to save the day just in time.
Now it is pretty clear that at some point soon, someone new is going to arrive and take King’s Landing, whether this be Dany, Aegon, Stannis, Sansa or another claimant. Could this trigger the same kind of response in Cersei? If so, and if she swallows the Tears of Lys to end it all, perhaps someone will arrive and strangle her to release her from this painful death. The gift of mercy is one that has been brought up several times as a theme in A Song Of Ice And Fire, and this more poetic translation of ‘tears drowning you’ would certainly be a powerful end for the character. So this may well be Jaime, and then the moral question is somewhat resolved.
Weighing up all the evidence, Jaime is certainly not one to dismiss as a candidate. But while he has the most textual evidence to support his being the ‘valonqar’, we must question the details above and also the fact that he is a rather obvious choice following Tyrion. GRRM may not make it this easy for us to guess the candidate, and so I think that Tyrion and Jaime could both be red herrings. In light of this, we should have a close examination of the remaining candidates.
3. Stannis Baratheon
Now this is an interesting option, because if we look at the prophecy again, we must realise that Maggy’s words follow on from this question:
“Will the king and I have children?”
It is therefore reasonable to assume that the part about the ‘valonqar’ still relates to this question, and isn’t random, spurious prophecy concerning Cersei’s death out of nowhere. This reading immediately rules out both Tyrion and Jaime as candidates, and instead opens up the options of other ‘little brothers’. The first that jumps to mind is of course the king – Robert Baratheon’s – only living little brother, Stannis.
This is a very likely option, in my mind. If Stannis wins the battle of the North, which I can see happening early on in The Winds Of Winter, he will wish to resume his relentless pursuit for the Iron Throne. With other factors considered such as a remaining Stark (Sansa or Rickon), possibly returning to claim Winterfell, I believe it is likely that they will allow Stannis to move south with his conquest, seeing as he freed the North from the Boltons, albeit with certain conditions or fealties.
Moreover, after his surviving this long, it would be unsatisfying in a narrative sense to not see Stannis sit the Iron Throne at least briefly – for this has been the ultimate goal of the character from day one, and the justice that drives him. While he may only sit there for a moment before being overthrown by another claimant such as Dany, I could certainly see him finally arriving there and strangling Cersei, who was after all responsible for the murder of his brother and the crowning of two false kings that displaced his rightful claim to the Iron Throne.
Moreover, this event occurring has already been foreshadowed in the show – and we should take this very seriously due to the fact that the show is choosing to include the ‘valonqar’ prophecy out of the numerous stream of prophecies that have not made it into the show so far (many of which the fanbase deem far more significant).
At the end of Season 2, Stannis grabs Melisandre by the throat, having lost the battle of Blackwater, and starts to ‘choke the life’ from her there and then. This, along with numerous examples of violence in the name of justice, demonstrates what this character is capable of in the face of those who he feels have betrayed him. The question of Stannis’ hard and uncompromising notion of morality and justice perfectly fits with the idea of Stannis strangling Cersei.
4. Tommen Baratheon
Tommen is the only other remaining candidate if we take seriously the idea of the prophecy only relating to the king or Cersei’s children. And again we must ask: why would Maggy give any more information to Cersei than what their agreement for three questions states? Why would she go off topic and tell Cersei about her death if it wasn’t related to her initial question, which was about the king and her children?
So, Tommen is the little brother of Cersei’s three children. Yes, this may seem unlikely on the face of it: Tommen is a sweet child and has no reason to kill his mother at present, nor the strength to strangle her. But, again we should look at the evidence.
It is implied that all of Cersei’s children will die before her. It has also been strongly set up from the opening chapter of the first book that we will have an invasion of the Others at some point in the final two books. What does this mean? Tons of wights will start to appear in the next two books.
And when we look at methods by which we have seen wights kill, strangulation seems to be one of the most favoured. Thanks to Gecco78 at Westeros for picking up on this one.
In the prologue of A Game of Thrones, we see Waymar Royce come back to life as a wight and strangle Will.
“Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.” (AGOT, Prologue)
Then we have Othor came back to life as a wight at the Wall and attempt to kill Lord Mormont, during which he attempts to choke Jon, with a ‘surprising strength’. (AGOT, Chapter 52, Jon)
Indeed, if Tommen has recently been killed and then the Others invade, he may well return as a wight and murder his mother. This is looking very far ahead though and relies almost entirely on speculation.
I have seen many other theories based on the fact that “valonqar” could be taken to simply mean ‘younger sibling’ in a general sense. That then opens up the case for any younger sibling in the whole of Westeros being our valonqar, including speculation about Arya becoming the valonqar to strike Cersei of her list, or the Hound – younger brother of Gregor Clegane, and even Jon Snow – which to me makes no sense at all.
I believe that one of the four discussed above will turn out to be the valonqar, and that the most likely option is actually Stannis, based on characterisation and close analysis of the prophecy itself.
Agree/Disagree? Discuss below! Thanks for reading, and as ever please leave suggestions on future theories you might wish to see analyzed and discussed as the next in the series.
Sources
George R.R. Martin: A Game Of Thrones, A Clash Of Kings, A Storm Of Swords, A Feast For Crows, A Dance With Dragons, The Winds of Winter (sample chapters)
Westeros.org (in particular thanks to Gecco78)
Maggy the Frog!
I vehemently disagree that the most likely candidate is Stannis. I believe it’s limited to two possibilities – Tyrion and Jaime.
Tyrion is immediately out. Cersei outright names him the valonqar in the books when discussing the prophecy with Taena Merryweather. She’s always wrong. (Same reason Margaery isn’t the younger, more beautiful queen.)
I think the valonqar has to be Jaime. There’s a ton of foreshadowing in regard to Cersei and wildfire. I’m a proponent of the theory that Cersei goes Aerys and tries to burn King’s Landing with wildfire. Jaime strangles her to prevent this – thus saving the city, again – and earning himself a new derogatory nickname, ‘kinslayer’, for his trouble.
People like to dismiss Jaime as the more obvious candidate. But it’s not obvious to Cersei, and that’s where the drama lies.
Once the prophecy of Tommen’s death is fulfilled, Cercei will most likely need to flee Kings Landing for Casterly Rock where Edmure Tully is. Catelyn’s little brother.
Nice catch on Tommen, if Cersei marries Willas/Loras and Tommen marries Margery, Tommen will technically be a younger brother-in-law to Cersei in the same way Stannis would be a younger brother-in-law.
I’m not convinced on who the Valonqar is yet, but these 4 at least fulfill the base requirements of being younger brothers as relating to Cersei (whether naturally or by way of in-laws).
Love the analysis… good job Locke! I just want to add that even if a character is cut out of the series doesn’t necessarily mean that they are not pivotal to the endgame of the story. we are at a point between the show and the books that characters can be thrown out or in based on what story D&D wants to tell. So Arianne is still a strong ‘younger queen’ candidate for me…
Sansa!
Jon Snow being the valanqar relates to him being a “brother” of the nights watch. I too find this unlikely however
Thanks for this great article. Fun to read, and passes the time waiting for an actual S5 trailer to show up.
This may not refer to a literal queen replacing Cersei. I think
Still, the argument for Sansa Stark is convincing and most likely to happen. Daenerys
The valonquar will probably be Jaime, for whatever reason. But,
It’s a stretch, but that would be an interesting twist.
If Cersei didn’t take Maggy seriously, maybe none of these things would have ever come true. Her actions are making it a self-fulfilling prophecy (not to mention her interpretation is way too literal).
One of my favorite moments in The Lego Movie was when Morgan Freeman’s Vitruvius confesses that he completely made up the prophecy about Chris Pratt’s character, but it came true anyway because he believed it. Prophecies work only if people believed them.
GRRM always says that he hates predictable fiction as a reader and he doesn’t want to write predictable fiction so I wouldn’t take too literally these prophecies, they might not be what they seem.
The valonqar prophecy is one of those things that people seriously overcomplicate trying to figure out the “surprise” GRRM has in store. It’s Jaime. Sure, it’s the obvious twist, but it’s also by far the most tragic and resonant one in Cersei’s arc (compare it to, say, Stannis — where’s the resonance there?). GRRM, unlike D&D, is not obsessed with trying to surprise the audience; he lays on foreshadowing for big events quite thick in many places.
Many of GRRM’s prophecies are open to many divergent interpretations because of the obscure symbolism, words, etc.; Maggy’s prophecies are not among them. They’re easily the most literal prophecies in the whole series. She says that Melara will be murdered that night by Cersei. Check. She says that Cersei will never marry Rhaegar, but will marry Robert, and correctly (so far as we know, in Robert’s case) guesses how many children they will have. None of this is open to interpretation.
Hey everyone,
Good job on another post, Locke! We are happy to have you with us.
Since we’re talking about book events far beyond what has happened on the show, it’s probably okay to dodge the spoiler code. Locke’s whole post is speculatory.
Personally, I’ve always loved the idea of Jaime being the one who strangles Cersei and possibly killing himself afterwards. I think that would be a great way to finish both their arcs and it is also quite poetic (but TBH, with GRRM poetic justice isn’t usually the case.)
“All of this is true, because it rhymes.”
I know it’s super unlikely, but my choice for “younger, more beautiful queen” is shireen baratheon following some kind of quasi-magical greyscale cure. Like brienne, SB has been defined by her ugliness: unlike brienne, she will be the actual queen whenever stannis dies (awesomely, because that’s how he does everything).
The greyscale thing has been in the background for a while, and with JonConn about to maybe cause a full-on outbreak, I expect it to jump to the fore.
But mainly I love shireen and want her character to become significant, in a non-sacrificed kind of way…
Greatjon of Slumber,
🙂
jebbers,
Shireen getting the Iron Throne would be cool. She’d be the most logical choice. Stannis and Daenerys may not survive saving Westeros from the WW, and Sansa, after her nightmare in KL, will probably want to return home and rule in the north.
No, but Martin does adhere to a few general theories of story telling, and those do apply here. These include who the primary antagonists are for the protagonists, and the nature of prophecy. Martin is big on making characters both Protagonists and Antagonists. Cersei has now been a protagonist since Feast. Her primary antagonists include Tyrion and Sansa (two of the Top 6 protagonists), and (increasingly) Jaime. In the not too-distant future, Dany will become one: Cersei has somehow managed to ignore Dany so far, but Dany will return to Westeros and that will make it impossible for Cersei to ignore her. (Aegon’s return might do that, too.)
On the issue of Prophecy, prophecy will always be ironic. The valonqar will be a “little brother,” but not the one Cersei thinks. That means it won’t be Tyrion. It won’t be Tommen: he isn’t a protagonist. It won’t be Stannis: he isn’t a protagonist, either, and he has no connection to Cersei in the story. (He does in the plot, but not in the story, and that is a key distinction!) It is going to be someone that Cersei should consider, but hasn’t het: and that is Jaime. (Martin has been setting up an increasingly antagonistic relationship between the two, especially from Jaime towards Cersei as Jaime continues to evolve a conscience.)
As for the Queen, well, that is going to be Daenyrs. We can cross Margaery and Arianne off the lists because they are neither protagonists (well, Arianne is a minor one, but a complete throw-away, and Margaery is a minor one on TV only). Also, Margaery parallels Tyrion here in that Cersei has considered her. Sansa is a protagonist, but she is not in line to be a Queen of Westeros (unless she marries Aegon!); at best she is might become Quee in the North, which would not cast down Cersei. Moreover, Cersei considers Sansa. So, cross out Sansa.
(This also strongly suggests that Cersei will be not just be cast down from any power, but of any hope of returning to power: power is, after all, what she holds most dear except perhaps for her children: and there is a good chance that both will be dead by that point, or that the surviving one [which would have to be Myrcella if she is to wear a crown] will die at that time.)
That leaves Dany. Like Jaime, Cersei should consider Dany: but despite the obvious threat that Dany presents, I don’t think that Cersei ever thinks about her.
In both cases, Cersei is going to be stunned both by how obvious the truth was and by the fact that she never considered it.
Ah, but prophecies are always ironic: they appear to mean one thing, but they really mean something else. Both aspects of the prophecy will be literally true. They just won’t mean what Cersei thinks that they mean. (Those include Jaime as the “Little Brother” and Dany as the younger more beautiful queen.)
Jon Snow’s name popping up as a possible valonquar may also have to do with that he might be Aerys’s son (presumably Lyanna is raped by him), and if Jaimie and Cersei are also his children (Aerys halving slept with Tywin’s wife), that makes them all half siblings. However, the theory is very far fetched and I think it’s more likely Jon is Rhaegar’s love-child. Jaimie is the stronger candidate. Tommen as a possible “dead” candidate is very interesting though.
B&W have been telling the same stories as Martin has told and I expect that they will continue to do that. Arianne is not particularly relevant to that, however, as she makes only a minor contribution to the story, and I expect that Trystane will be playing that role (i.e., attempted Queenmaker who is in totally over his/her head). Arianne does not meet any of the other qualifications, however: she is not a renowned beauty, she is not going to be the “casting down” sort, and she isn’t a major protagonist. We need a major protagonist who is going to be an antagonist for Cersei: and that’s Sansa (who hold no claim on the Queenship of Westeros unless she marries Aegon) and Dany.
Indeed, all of the “evidence” is baseless speculation! (William of Occam would be spinning in his grave….)
Martin has said that he’s not adding any more POV characters, never mind adding any protagonists. So, it’s too late to for her to become “significant” as anything other than a plot device for some other protagonist. The Queen and the Little Brother really need to be more than tertiary characters!
I think that some of the possible candidates for the valonqar provided in the comments so far are not as likely because as Locke states:
I think this in an important qualification that needs to be considered while deliberating. I agree that the rant must stem directly from Cersei’s question, and is not random.
Based on the textual evidence and the speculation provided in this article, here are my guesses:
The younger queen is Sansa. I never thought about this, and I think I may have become at least champion of, if not convinced, that Sansa is the one. I am absolutely in love with the idea of Sansa becoming a Queen in the North and kicking some Southron ass. She always wanted to be the Queen, Queen she shall be, and her story will come full circle when she receives justice/vengeance for the torture she has been put through in King’s Landing.
The valonqar is either Jamie or Stannis. I have always thought it would be Jamie; and I think it would be really interesting if the last person Cersei thinks would kill her is the man that does it. Perhaps they will go out together, as the text alludes to. My friends and I don’t think Jamie is going to make it out of the series alive, unfortunately, so it would be interesting if this is how he goes. However, personally, I kind of love the idea of Stannis being the valonqar. I’m Team Stannis in terms of the existing Westerosi players, anyway, and it’s true that his history of violence indicates a possible tie here, not to mention the clear connection of being the valonqar to Robert.
Great job on the speculation, Locke! I must have missed your first spec article? I’d love to read it if you would link me!
Hopefully not terribly OT, but this…
…is why the book-to-TV adaptations are potentially problematic. It may help us determine the relative importance of particular characters in-book before we even get a chance to speculate (e.g., whether Arianne could potentially be the younger queen – although I think this might be unlikely anyway).
~ PA
Good point. Dany might be the one, but I love Sansa’s arc and I would not be disappointed if she fulfilled that role.
I have mixed feelings about these theories. I don’t want to be “spoiled” (if I’m still around in 2030 or whenever GRRM finishes the series) but they are like a box of chocolate: I know I shouldn’t do so but I read them, and Locke has obviously put in a lot of thought. I hate the thought of Myrcella and Tommen getting killed because they are nice kids unlike their late unlamented (at least by Sincerely Thine) older brother. Locke has some interesting thoughts. I always thought perhaps the valonqar would be Jaime. But if, as Locke avers, Jaime is too obvious a candidate…well we know GRRM likes to avoid the obvious (though the world and his wife seem to have guessed who Jon Snow’s real mama is). Would (book) Tyrion’s hands be big enough to strangle Cersei? I know he strangled Shae but that was by tightening the necklace. There would be a sort of justice about Sansa being the younger, more beautiful queen.
I come here because this is a site devoted to the show and to hopefully avoid speculation and theories concerning GMs ambiguous writing style. Sigh, I guess its unavoidable.
Carry on, nerds. 🙂
Penis penis penis.
Don’t many people think The Hound is the younger brother?
Cersei’s Champion is Robert Strong a.k.a. The Mountain. The faith militant will bring in someone to fight him from the Quiet Isle: aka, the reformed Sandor Clegane.
He’ll defeat his brother, thereby dooming Cersei to death.
SerCountryFriedSteak,
Maybe. I think it’s another interesting twist on the valonqar theory, but I would stress what was suggested earlier: Maggy’s prophecy is likely tied into Cersei’s question about her and her king having children, therefore excluding The Hound or any other random character from the list of candidates.
jebbers,
Whether or not Shireen will become queen I cannot speculate, but I am another one who likes the character. Although I have caught up on the (existing)* books now, I first came across Shireen in the persona of Kerry Ingram as show Shireen, so it may be because of the actress that I like the character (though she isn’t changed so very greatly from the books, though in the books it is someone else who teacher Ser Davos to read – hope that’s not a spoiler, I still have not mastered the art of masking the spoiler on this site).
* Though it would be very strange if I had caught up on the books that don’t exist yet…..though I understand there are some random “Winds of Winter” chapters that have been released as tasters.
Tyrion is the obvious candidate for most readers, not Jaime. And as krtmd notes, Tyrion is the obvious candidate for Cersei: and that is what really counts. Moreover, it should at least occur to the reader before it happens that Jaime is the one. (Martin has left the clues, after all: Cersei is the elder twin.)
As for “obvious,” what becomes “obvious” to hardcore fans is far from “obvious.” Remember, there is serious “group think” for the tiny minority of readers and viewers that read and post on these type of boards. Most readers think it’s obvious that Wylla is Jon’s mother. Oh sure, they might pick up on a few of these things: but they don’t pick up on the bulk of them because: 1) they read the book once and then don’t think about it again until the next book; and, 2) they never discuss this stuff with anybody except perhaps when watching the TV show.
(This works both ways, I’ll note: the “group think” always leads some groups of hardcore fans to build mountains from molehills: Morna brings up one example above, and there are lots of other ones. Hardcore fans also always include a subset that gets far to immersed in the plot and minor narrative details to worry about the story, too: and that leads them down the wrong paths when the resolutions to the mysteries ultimately are story-oriented rather than detail-based.)
The younger brother is clearly Theon.
The little bro is obviously Edd
SerCountryFriedSteak,
Well, one of the reasons she is on trial is whether her children are Robert’s or not. So the outcome of the trial is directly related to the wellbeing of her children and the question ““Will the king and I have children?”
Still a bit stretched out, but worth considering 🙂
Nice post, thank you! 🙂
but what about Walder, I mean hodor, which is not a name, it’s something very important?
I remember from the aGoT book that he doesn’t like bathing, except in very hot springs. Could be nothing, but Targaryens also like this. And he’s got silver/white hair 🙂
or maybe hodor is a magical word to control Walkers or Dragons lol
so Locke, maybe you could write something about “hodor” theory?
I agree with Sean C regarding Jaime and how that will happen. Its obvious to us but not to the characters which is the beauty and tragedy of it. And I see setup on the show too.
As for the younger queen…it has to be Sansa rather than Dany for two reasons
a. There’s no emotional or dramatic tension with Dany-she and Cersei have never even met. There’s no relationship there. It would be anti-climactic whereas the little dove/she wolf and the lioness have quite a history together.
B. Dany has played no role so far in taking away what Cersei loves while Sansa (unwittingly) was part of the death of Cersei’s first born and in Jamie’s desertion.
And for the record Cersei didn’t really consider Sansa a threat because she thought the Stark girl too stupid and weak. That might be why she argued for Joffrey to keep his engagement to her at the small council meeting instead of jumping on Tyrion’s idea of marrying him to Margery like everyone else did-she saw Sansa as a way *around* the prophecy.
Adrianne didn’t make it to the show so she can’t be the one and there’s no way Cersei was actually right about Margery.
Just my humble opinions of course…
B.
True. However, there still is an entire book to go before the finale! Moreover, Varys establishes an indirect connection: he is striving to keep Cersei in power to pave the way for the Targaryens to return. Now, whether it’s “his” Targ or Dany remains to be seen. However, Cersei is going to do a lot to help Dany take the thrown in the end. (Oh, the irony! :-)) Cersei is, for all intents and purposes, Dany’s unwitting agent.
The other problem is that we don’t have anything yet to put Sansa in line for casting down Cersei. Now, personally, I find the idea of Sansa hooking up with Aegon appealing: in a way, the woman Sansa might earn the Golden Prince that the girl Sansa coveted. (Again: oh, the irony! ;-))
Ah, but what Cersei truly loves is power. She tells herself that she loves her children more, but Cersei is deluding herself.
Moreover, there are two more stories to go. Dany is going to come back: and eventually Cersei is going to realize that all of her maneuvering to prevent Margaery and Sansa and all of those others from fulfilling the prophecy has totally backfired. That would lend a Macbethian quality to the prophecy: part of the reason why Dany casts down is because Cersei completely destabilizes Westeros to prevent Margaery from casting her (Cersei) down!
The big stretch is making “the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you” a metaphor for that. Much of the prophecy is ironic: for example, the King is Robert, not Rhaegar. However, that part is pretty darned direct. We basically know how Cersei will die: what we don’t know is who the strangler is.
I also really like the Stannis option for “the valonqar” (hate Jaime and Tyrion for that, because OMG the cheeeese). It can also kinda explain why Maggy used a Valyrian word all of a sudden (maybe she couldn’t remember the Westerosi word for brother-in-law?).
As for the younger queen, I still think that’s actually Sansa, Marg, Dany and Arianne all together and utterly self-fullfilling.
What about victarion? He has an injured hand from the battle of the shield islands, and rescues moqorro who started his journey with the fiery hand of the Lord of light. Victarion rants at length to the dusky woman about how he has always comported himself as a loyal and dutiful little brother to balon as was expected of him and is very bitter that euron never has. Plus Victarion has no qualms about killing women as he has already lost a wife to his iron mailed hands. Just another road to look down that no one that I’ve read even suspects, which to me means I’m probably on the right track
I like the theory on Sansa, I actually hadn’t given that much though. As much as I love Stannis, I can’t see him being the valonqar. If it’s not one of the Lannister brothers, I think it will be Edmure Tully.
So she uses the incorrect Valyrian word?!? If there was a mistranslation, then it is that valonqur means younger brother, not “little” brother: but, then “little” brother essentially means younger brother.
(Out of curiosity, how is this translated in other languages?)
And, please, proper drama is not cheesy. It would not be. Stannis would be something far worse than cheesy: he would be arbitrary. This is a modern story: the valonqur should be one of the other protagonist for whom this represents some basic conflict of heart. He’s not a monster (which rules out Tyrion!).
Nice article! My one thought is that why does the valonqar necessarily have to be a little brother of Cersei’s? Maggy talks of the valonqar not your valonqar.
Also does the term ‘little brother’ mean any younger brother or only the youngest in a line? It’s a grey area to be sure, but personally I tend to equate it more with the latter (which would then rule out Jaime if Tyrion were still around).
If we take any little brother, then Aegon VI is a credible valonqar given the way the books are shaping up.
If you want some real left field valonqars, then how about Rickon, or (assuming he really has done in Aeron by now) Euron.
This is EXACTLY what I was going to post after reading the article above. With all of the talk of king’s rights about kings sleeping with subordinate’s wives, Aerys could easily have done this if he knew about Rheagar and Lyanna. It would be a stretch, but still technically possible.
It could conceivably make sense and be consistent with the mythology of the story for Cersei and Jon Snow to be half brothers.
Yeah, sorry, I’m not changing my mind about either Tyrion or Jaime killing Cersei being unbelievably cheesy.
I’m not insisting on Stannis, just saying he’s an option I personally would find not all that random. (Bitch, stole his kingdom!)
As for the translation thingy, yeah, that’s some fanwanking from me, because as an ESL person it’s not unusal to insert words (often rather incorrect) of one language into the other if all else fails.
Oh, and if we go with the secret Targ stuff (I love it) I’m saying Dany is the valonqar (Cersei and Jaime’s little sister, oops gender mix-up).
I don’t know anything about a new trailer … but we finally have a possible date for the HBO Yearender video! If you go to the HBO Schedule website and type “Yearender” into the search bar, it says that the HBO 2014 Yearender will be available On Demand starting on December 21, 2014 (beneath the boxing one that’s already aired).
http://www.hbo.com/#/schedule
Is this what you’re referring to, HBO Nordic? Or do you know something else?
This will come across like a contradiction of my own earlier argument regarding Jaime, but I’m fairly certain Dany is the YMBQ. I agree with you that, on a purely thematic level, it makes way more sense for it to be Sansa, from the perspective of Cersei’s arc. But when assessing these things I look at both theme and plot, and while there are clear indicators that Jaime could fit on both those points, on a plot level it really just does not feel like being the YMBQ has anything to do with Sansa’s arc at this point, even though she is becoming a “player”.
So you come to the site to learn about the show, but then click on something that clearly states that there will be discussion from the books that go beyond where the show is right now, and then complain that you found book discussion in there?
If you want to stay in the show world only, then don’t click on the book discussions. Pretty simple…
Dame of Mercia,
I read the books (twice) between seasons 1 and 2, but Ingram has definitely made the character her own in her very limited screen time. Book shireen is largely the same, though accompanied by patchface, who many readers believe to be a dispenser of significant prophecies. I just want her to matter down the road, and while it has been implied (in both media) that her king’s blood is important storywise, the main thrust of this (very good) article is that we should consider the unexpected, and I find her to be a tantalizing outlier.
Let us remember that NO one ever thought Joffrey Baratheon hired the catspaw assassin that tried to kill Bran. Prior to the Joffrey reveal, everyone was like quoting and pointing to the numerous textual evidence that says it is Littlefinger. My point is, I do not think the valonqar is either Tyrion or Jaime. It would be someone unexpected (just like in Joffrey’s case). Also why did Cersei ask and believe what a septa said as to the meaning of the word valonqar. The septa could have misled her. Cersei should’ve asked a maester.
There’s no indication that the word for “brother-in-law” has anything to do with the word for “brother” in Valyrian. These are two very different concepts, and the word for “brother-in-law” may be related to the word “brother” in English, French and some other languages, but there are other languages where the two have nothing to do with each other, and people don’t think of brother-in-law as in any way equivalent to a brother.
Besides, why would a brother-in-law be called younger brother/little brother?
i definitely dont think the younger is Dany, since she’ll be stuck on Meeren for awhile, and she hasnt taken anything than cersei holds dear Marg is also not the younger queen since Cersei thinks she is the one. the younger queen is Sansa. She is described as being very beautiful by a lot of people even Cersei, and Cersei once said Marg looked like a common smallfolk. so i think she is up there with Cersei and Dany in terms of beauty.
Littlefinger is planning on making her the queen in the north/vale (the war of three queens)
Sansa is very much responsible for taking what Cersei holds dear (Joffrey/Jaime/Tywin). she had a major role in the murder of Joffrey, which ultimately led to death of Tywin. Jaime thinks by saving Sansa, he can regain his honor, and he had that life-changing field trip with Brienne which slowly distanced him from Cersei to the point that he doesnt want to save Cersei.
and from all the candidates Sansa is the only one that has any agenda with Cersei.
I don’t see how Littlefinger could have possibly hired the catspaw when he was on the other side of the country when Bran fell. It had to be someone who was at Winterfell at the time, so that “textual evidence”, whatever it was, doesn’t actually make sense.
Not happening.
Cersei’s trial is scheduled to happen 5 days after the events of ADWD. And I think it’s a safe prediction that she’s going to win, i.e. Robert Strong is going to kill whatever poor religious sap the Faith puts forward.
Sandor as Champion of the Faith makes no sense, for a multitude of reasons. 1) He is still limping and it’s unlikely he’s going to be in shape to fight Gregor any time soon. 2) Why the hell would the Faith choose him, of all people? He is a recent novice at a faraway religious community that has been quite distant from the goings on in KL, he has a bad reputation, he is still wanted for Rorge’s crimes at Saltpans. 3) Why would Sandor want to fight for the Faith Militant? I’m guessing people think it’s because he realizes RS is Gregor, but how likely is it that the word of it is going to spread so soon? If the word starts spreading that there’s a suspiciously large new KG, it would be after the trial by combat. 4) Even if rumors of Robert Strong have started to circulate and reach other parts of Westeros post-Walk (which I don’t think is the case), would Sandor even have the time to come to KL all the way from the Quiet Isle for the trial in such a short time? 5) How would the High Sparrow even know about him? From the Elder Brother? There’s no reason to think they’re particularly close or that the EB has any influence on HS. 6) Even if he had, why would the Elder Brother want Sandor to fight Robert Strong? He wants Sandor to be at rest and heal psychologically. 7) In particular, why would the EB want Sandor to fight Gregor, if he hears rumors about who RS is? Kinslaying is considered one of the most terrible crimes in Westeros, and we know what the EB thinks about Sandor’s desire to kill Gregor. He certainly wouldn’t approve. 8) Why would the Faith allow Sandor to fight Gregor at all, if they knew they were brothers? See: kinslaying. Also, they would choose one of the devout brothers out there, and probably a member of Warrior’s Sons, not a novice of bad reputation who would have an obvious (and shocking, from religious point of view) personal reason to fight Gregor.
Now many of you are arguing that Sansa while destined to become a player doesn’t seem to be on a arc to become queen.
I would suggest that Sansa’s theme is rather her developing the skill set to be a Queen while at the same learning to hate the whole notion. Martin’s sense of irony at work again.
As for HOW she could become Queen she would be a logical choice of consort for any King on the Iron Throne…even a lost dragon prince.
And no I don’t mean Faegon
Annara Snow,
Yep, I totally agree with that. In my native language, for example, brother and brother in law are completely unrelated, so much that it took me a good while to get used to these in-laws in english because in portuguese we have a whole new set of totally different words to describe them. I’m also not sold on the necessary corelation between the valonqar and the last question but I must admit it does make sense. And on the queen part: I’m leaning towards Sansa or Arienne at the moment (You guys must remeber that we have yet to see the scene on the show, if Arienne really is the one they might tweak the prophecy a little or even give her role to another character). After season 5 the prophecy will surely become much more clear.
My top choice for younger more beautiful queen is definitely Sansa.
For valonqar, Jaime is the most likely choice. Cersei thinks it’s Tyrion and once Jaime lost his hand, Tyrion and Jaime have some parallels. They’ve both become two of the most complex and morally ambiguous characters. Now that Jaime also has physical limitations, he is starting to solve problems with brains rather than with brawn. Just like Tyrion. Tyrion strangled the woman he loves, Jaime will do the same.
My second choice candidate is Jon. Assuming R+L=J, he’s the youngest of Rhaegar’s children. Since Cersei wanted to marry and have kids with Rhaegar, it would be ironic if she was killed by Rhaegar’s child with her rival from back in the day Lyanna. Jon would have reason to want kill her because she was one of those responsible for all the bad shit that happened to his family. The main problems with this are that the two characters are very far away and he would probably have to ride in on a dragon to accomplish this. Also, the two characters haven’t interacted so it wouldn’t be as satisfying.
A really farfetched theory is that Arya kills Tommen and wears his face to infiltrate KL. She strangles Cersei as Tommen. This would be kind of neat. T
Ericb5,
TWOIAF has apparently disproven the Jamie/Cersei Targaryen theory by posting their birth dates, which do not correspond with the Aerys/Joanna timeline
Ericb5,
Ya missed my point. But I appreciate your gravitas.
It’ll be Jaime. He’s her ( slightly) younger brother and the relationship and passion between them means it’s the most satisfying ending for their story. I predict Jaime having already killed a Mad King (and possibly his father) will have to kill a Mad Queen. Again bringing up the lash of his duty and his morals. The question is what happens to him afterwards? I imagine he’ll die of be killed but I’d like to think he’ll end up at the Wall (if it’s still there) as I think it would fit with his redemption and there has been touchs of foreshadowing in both the books and show which would show how much his character has changed from someone who looks down his nose at the Nightswatch to being there and finally recaliming some honour. But hey ho, we all have our own preferences for the way we hope it goes.
Annara Snow,
Nicely reasoned post. I think it’s very possible that we have seen the last of Sandor Clegane.
Bex,
Yes, that is true yet TWoIaF is not always a source one can cite, as it is told from an unreliable source POV. It has been mentioned numerous times in the books defense for all kinds of errors, that the maesters are making mistakes. Like Jaime being typed Jamie on the Lannister family tree. Unless that wasn’t a mistake and we should have been typing it Jamie all along! 🙂
Rickon & Bran are “little brothers” as well
hell, even Theon had older brothers…
Annara Snow,
Stop trying to kill the Cleganebowl hype :p
Jon,
Could not have said it better, my belief is this prophecy is a false herring, sure early parts foretold have come true, but are we so sure about the King’s bastards, Robert bedded girls throughout Westeros, from his youth onward, I can guarantee he has waaaay more than 16 children, probably closer to 50 or more. Hell, Gene Simmons believes he may have fathered over 1000 children. Oh and show Cersei has proven this prophecy false, she admitted to having a fourth child of dark hair.
The point being is book Cersei believes this prophecy could become true and she is doing her damnedest to stop it’s fulfillment, thereby causing her slow decline into madness. Concerning golden shrouds and golden crowns, a golden shroud actually has two meanings, one is death and the other is marriage. Cersei would abhor any of her children getting married, she didn’t want Joffrey and especially Tommen to ever marry and she doesn’t want Myrcella to wed, she wants to be the forever Queen mother with her children about her always. Golden crowns also have multiple meanings, the color of one’s hair and of course a symbol of regency, and then there is tooth replacement.
I am not so sure Tommen and Myrcella will die in the books, to obvious; GRRM loathes predictability in fiction, and one such troupe is prophecy fulfillment in the fantasy genre.
Ericb5,
Don’t worry Rygar is a famous(infamous?) troll. Pay no mind to him
Who said anything about “random”? I said that it woudl be arbitrary. Those are very different concepts in literature and cinema. Non-random plot events are very arbitrary story events if they do not stem directly from the story-driving development of one or more protagonists. Sure, Cersei is Stannis’ enemy: but that is plot, not story. Turning Jaime into Cersei’s enemy (which has begun) is story from not one, but two protagonists. Moreover, Jaime is the one person on this list who would really feel conflicted about this: the others are either protagonists that hate her (Tyrion, Sansa) or non-protagonists who’s conflict (if it existed) would not be written. (Stannis wouldn’t have any conflict: he’s a moral absolutist who has judged Cersei guilty of a capital offense.)
(For comparison, history is not random: things happen for a variety of reasons; history is arbitrary, however, as history is not constructed to tell any stories. That’s why Marco Polo is so bad!)
The book has foreshadowed (indeed, even beyond foreshadowing as the characters are aware of this idea!) that the two will depart at the same time. My bet is that Cersei kills Jaime as Jaime is killing Cersei.
You are dead-on about the conflict between moralities being important here: that is the hallmark of these stories. It also is something that, say, Stannis or Tyrion could never provide.
The question is, who will be the POV character? On one hand, we need to read Cersei’s realization that she misinterpetted the Prophecy for all of these years; on the other hand, we need to read Jaime’s internal conflict. Well, I suppose one will be the POV and listen to what the other says!
The show isn’t the books, and that’s neither here nor there. Book!Cersei aborted that pregnancy.
Turncloak,
Rygar is a her, and she’s not a troll, but pretty awesome, honestly.
The new issue of Entertainment Weekly up and spoils
without any warning. Wth!
James Rivers,
Spoilers it happening in the show or spoils it happening in the books. If the latter, I think that ship has sailed (thanks, James Hibberd)
I had always assumed the valonqar was Jamie because of the irony.
But now I’m thinking about the literal syntax…the valonqar prophecy comes as a rider on the answer about Cercei and Robert’s children. So now I’m convinced that the valonqar is a “little brother” from the pool of Robert and Cercei’s children.
Now I have a really weird theory to add to the pile: Edric Storm is the Valonqar
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. –Seems to be referencing Cercei’s 3 children, implying they will be crowned and then die. We’re halfway there already, so not hard to believe. Though IMO it doesn’t kill the suspense even if it’s true because we don’t know how or why.
“And when your tears have drowned you,”– Maybe, following the death of her last child, Cercei either dies of grief or takes the Tears of Lyse to end her grief? Or someone poisons her with poison she had meant to use on someone else? (Someone like….Sansa?)
“the valonqar”– I’m now convinced this is not referring to one of Cercei’s brothers; otherwise why say “the” valonqar rather than “your” valonqar? Coming as it does after the “Six-and-ten for him, and three for you” and the golden crowns/shrouds, a child of Robert is implied–a younger brother from the pool of Robert & Cercei’s children; but at this point all of Cercei’s children are dead. Therefore, a younger brother from the pool of Robert’s children. And Edric Storm is the youngest known, living male among Robert’s bastards.
“shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”– Perhaps Cercei herself is also undead, after death from grief or poison. “Pale white throat” could imply that Cercei is either a wight or some other form of pallid undead (perhaps brought back by Quyburn). Perhaps a son of Robert (Edric?) chokes the undead “life” from Cercei out of mercy or fear? Or he poisoned her, she came back, and then he choked her?
This is all based on logic & grammar, though–wtf reason does Edric have to go after Cercei?
Unless…
–Stannis takes the throne, leaving Cercei alive but imprisoned. Tommen is killed in this overthrow.
–Shireen dies of either a grayscale relapse, a grayscale witchhunt, or M’s wanting kingsblood
–Stannis legitimizes Edric as his own heir (I mean, who else would he pick?)
–Rebels, Dorne, or someone somewhere crowns Myrcella after all. Perhaps Aegon & Arianne have been killed by now and Myrcella is Dorans backup-backup-backup plan
–Queen Myrcella wars with King Stannis
–Both are killed in the fighting
–Edric becomes king
BAM. Bet no one saw that coming. 😛 Actually, I’m sure this very theory is somewhere on the Forums of Ice and Fire right now. I go there all the time but it’s so hard to search older posts.
I’m also prejudiced in favor of Edric because I want Davos to be able to say “I told you so”.
Explicitly spoils the books. (They interviewed a psychic who predicts the character will be in the show. Really)
Here’s a picture of the section of the interview. Reading the Ser Pounce bit it sounds like she has no idea who that is and thinks he was kidnapped instead of just it being a question of him appearing again on screen.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/risnso.jpg
All this fan supposition is fine and good. Now imagine cramming it into two books with all the other stories that haven’t been told yet.
Is it just me or does Bex look sexy as a cat?
It is going to be Cersei’s brother: “brother” has no context for an individual save for their own siblings. If it was referring to Cersei & Robert’s combined brood, then it would have been “youngest son” or something like that. (Edric would be a lousy choice, too: he was one of the oldest of that brood, so it would have been “eldest son” or something like that.)
The only way around this would be if there were “brothers” as a title somewhere: but Martin has not introduced that, and no protagonists have that title. It’s also too late in the series to do so. (Again, these are modern stories: so, it’s going to be a protagonist who kills Cersei: and we will get his point of view on it at some point in some way.)
Otherwise, you end up basically targeting any male who has an older sibling: and that means you by trying to twist the words to fit any one idea, you pretty much render the idea improbable because a huge proportion of Westerosi (and Essosi!) males fit the criterion.
It is not impossible that Edric winds up being legitimized by the Aegon or Daenrys. However, I’m betting that it’s Gendry who is. Martin foreshadowed Gendry and Arya being married by having Robert tell Ned that their houses would be joined through Robert’s son and Ned’s daughter: and having Gendry become a legitimate Baratheon would completely fulfill that foreshadowing.
This is yet another reason to apply Occam’s Razor to these ideas: i.e., favor the one that explains the most and requires the fewest unknowns to be true. All good resolutions of fictional mysteries basically follow this principle, as it allows the author to maximize the number of plot and/or character points that are explained by a single outcome. (In general, Occam’s Razor is the guiding principle behind all critical thinking.)
The other principle is irony. In fiction, prophecies and foreshadowings always are ironic; the latter states something baldly that turns out to be literally true but not what you initially think; the latter is something that the author includes that appears figurative at the time, but turns out to be literal in the end. Thus, the solution will be simple, but it will not be obvious. Jaime is simple but not obvious: Cersei will never consider this to be the answer until the last minute. Most of the readers will not consider it until shortly before it happens.
Jaime further simplifies things by clarifying the repeated statement that he and Cersei will depart this life at the same time. He needs to be there when Cersei dies: but nobody else does. (I’m not sure what you call foreshadowing when the characters are aware of it: but, then, they obviously are not thinking that they are going to check out together because they are going to kill each other.)
Now, people here are repeating over and over the that this is obvious. It isn’t: Tyrion is the obvious answer, as he is both clearly younger and a dwarf. Jaime won’t be obvious to the vast majority of readers or viewers; most importantly, it is not going to be obvious to Cersei until it happens.
Kristian Nairn’s hair is silver/white. Hodor’s hair is brown.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand… I’ve always thought of Dany as the obvious choice to cast Cersei down, so speculation about Sansa excites me.
Moreover, I can’t see Dany VS Cersei ever being as satisfying as Sansa VS Cersei. The history between Sansa and Cersei is thick and ripe for exploiting. Whereas any conflict that may take place between Dany and Cersei leading to a prophecy fulfillment might end up feeling trite or rushed. A few chapters in one or two books could never amount to the relationship built up over many chapters in multiple books.
I’m at a bit of a standstill in my thoughts about the ‘valonqar.’
On the one (golden) hand, Jaime makes a helluva lot of sense in terms of dramatic irony and the physical/emotional/otherwise connection between the characters. On the other hand, I’m curious as to whether the casting down of Cersei by the younger and more beautiful bears any connection to the valonqar choking the life from her (i.e. an alliance of sorts.) Of course, in that instance, Jaime could also be a possibility with regards to oath keeping and fealty and such.
And then there’s my crack theory fever dream that it could be Rickon… (ay yi yi…)
Halloo, Sworn Brothers of the Night’s Watch!
It probably will be quite satisfying after Cersei reclaims power in Winter (an event for which Varys is nicely paving a way), and when Cersei’s bumblings make Daenrys’ conquest all the more easy. There probably will come a time when Westerosi lords and ladies start pleading with Cersei to take the Targaryen threat seriously: but as we’ve seen, Cersei is very good at overlooking the obvious and focusing on non-existent threats closer to home.
TheLizardKing,
That’s not a title for them: they don’t call each other “Brother Jon” or “Brother Sam” as if they were monks or something. Nor are any of them “the” Little Brother. Ditto that for the members of the Brotherhood without Banners. What we need is “Brother X” who is in some way the “Little” one: and there is not such a person.
The other huge problem with this is that neither of the two protagonists in the Watch (Jon & Sam) have any direct connection to Cersei. Thus, having one of them kill Cersei would be nearly as arbitrary as having Stannis do it. Neither could do it with any real sense of conflict of the sort that fuels Martin’s stories. And, of course, neither qualify as a “little brother,” never mind “the” little brother: unless we stretch Jon because he’s Aegon’s younger (half) brother! However, none of that means anything to Cersei, who won’t believe that Aegon is Aegon, and who won’t know (or believe) that Jon is Targaryen. Remember, it will be vital that Cersei realize that she’s been a fool before she dies.
Wimsey,
Is Occam’s Razor the new Checkov’s Gun?
BTW: Cersei never considered suicide at the end of Blackwater for her and Tommen. Tome wasn’t there! The scene you are referring to is from the TV-show only.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Never was a Cleganebowl fan, nor do I think we will ever see a lethally reinvigorated Hound, but I don’t think we have seen the last of the man who rides Stranger.
i assumed Rygar was a guy since she always seems to be mentioning “his penis” lol
Bex,
No, it’s the old Occam’s Razor! 🙂
Actually, Chekhov’s Gun really is a particular case of the Principle of Parsimony done backwards. Chekhov was basically saying: “do not complicate a narrative unnecessarily: focus on the plot and the story.” A good Chekhovian Gun winds up simplifying the plot (and sometimes story, too) by making one cause responsible for many effects.
So, the two do go hand-in-hand. When we are trying to solve Martin’s (or, really, anyone else’s) mysteries, look for things that explain the most Guns that have been hung on the wall. For example, the books have made a point of Jaime being marginally younger than Cersei and how he and Cersei believe that they will die at the same time. We want the prophecy to be ironic from Cersei’s POV. We know that Martin revels in the cruxes of his stories hinging on conflicted decisions by the protagonists. That’s at least 4 birds that one stone can hit! (Or that get targeted by the same set of guns!) Occam & Chekhov both smile at that.
🙂
(Oh, and I know that you were being somewhat facetious! But I also know that you know that I’m pedantic as can be….)
There: I’ve updated my icon appropriately…
Never bring a razor to a gun fight. Unless it’s holstered. Or hung. Whatevs,
Agreed.
Sansa is the YMBQ and Rickon is the valonquar. The North remembers.
I wasn’t suggesting Jon or Sam might be the valonqar, merely pointing out that there ARE “brothers” in this world.
Everything you’ve said in regards to Jon, Sam, or Stannis killing Cersei, I appropriate to Dany unseating Cersei.
I’m trying to understand how you think Dany VS Cersei would be more satisfying than Sansa VS Cersei, but I’m not getting it. They have no history and no direct connection. There would be “no real sense of conflict” other than threatening each other from afar.
In my eyes, it’s much juicier to see Sansa, once a bug under Cersei’s feet, as her skin toughens and she bravely faces a rivalry that began all the way back in aGoT when Cersei had Lady killed. It’s that kind of relationship and growth that produces good drama and dialogue with depth.
All I can imagine for a Dany/Cersei meeting is: “Hello. We’ve never met, but your family was just so darn mean to my family and, oooooh, I’m so stinkin’ mad at you because of it I could just spit!”
Edit, to address why I included the sentence at the end of quoted text:
Underestimating Sansa would make Cersei feel extremely foolish, methinks.
I don’t think Jaime would ever consciously kill Cersei, no matter how unhinged she becomes. I can imagine though, Bran getting his revenge on them both by warging Jaime to kill Cersei. We’ve already seen many examples in the books of BR and Arya warging over long distances and it doesn’t seem that crazy an idea to think that Bran could and would do it. I can just imagine Jaime’s reaction when he comes to and realises what he’s done!
Just a reminder to my fellow Canucks that HBOCanada is starting a “Game Of Thrones” marathon, 2 episodes per night, all four seasons. I would venture to guess that HBO in the states will do the same
http://www.hbocanada.com/gameofthrones/index.php
Nice year ender…
SerCountryFriedSteak,
I do not know. It is tempting to see that unfold. But for the Hound to finally have his vengeance against his brother, i don’t think the Faith would want to have a hand in an act of kinslaying, which is one of the gravest sins. They may not be sure (or know) that “that” is the Mountain but a guy of that size, i think that they will have their suspicions. I mean, an eight-foot tall monstrosity will surely would have stood out before the presumed death of Ser Gregor.
I would love to see that battle, though!
No. It doesn’t. That article is a psychic’s predictions of what’s going to happen in shows. I could polish my ass and get you an answer just as reliable.
I anticipate two very different types of prophecies here. I think that the New Queen prophecy is going to be MacBethian: Cersei is going to create (or encourage) the outcome by trying to prevent it. The “sense of conflict” is much, much less important here than for who kills Cersei: whoever removes Cersei is going to have no qualms about it because, well, at this point nobody would have any qualms about it.
One of Cersei’s huge flaws is that she is incapable of imagining what she cannot see or of considering things outside of a very limited range of parameters. Cersei should be aware of the danger that the Iron Bank poses: but despite it’s history, she assumes that money-grubbing commoners will naturally defer to nobility such as herself. By the same token, Cersei should be aware that the Faith Militant can represent a serious threat to the crown: but despite that history, she assumes that the religious nut job commoners will naturally defer to nobility such as herself. And by yet the same token, Cersei should be very aware of the threat that Daeny poses. Despite the fact that she and Robert were hardly close, she had to know just how obsessed Robert was with destroying Daeny and her brother. Cersei has to have heard about Daeny’s exploits out east: but, out-of-sight, out-of-mind: and Cersei can only see Margaery and the Tyrells (and sometimes Sansa) as the threat. Only after it is much too late will Cersei realize that she should have been worried about Daeny all along. That’s when Daeny takes what Cersei holds most dear: the title Queen. It won’t be personal: the two of them will probably never meet. Indeed, Daeny need never even know about it: but, then, Daeny doesn’t need to do so: only Cersei (and the reading/viewing audience) need to know about it.
(Indeed, Margaery could easily be out of the picture by this point: if Myrcella is to wear a crown, then Tommen predeceases her, and Margaery will lose any claim to real queenship then: she will be a dowager with no progeny. Restored Cersei even might see to it that Margaery is found guilty, which also will end Margaery as a threat: but if so, then that will further de-stabilize the Lannister coalition and basically gift-wrap the kingdom for Daeny. That would, of course, be wonderfully MacBethian as Cersei probably will think that she has averted the prophecy when she really will have put another nail in her coffin.)
The Valonqar Prophecy will not be Macbethian: Cersei is not going to turn Jaime or anybody else into her killer by trying to stop Tyrion. She will, no doubt, contribute strongly to the circumstance in some other ways that she has not entirely done yet: it’s not going to be arbitrary. However, whoever kills her should feel very mixed about it: it should be both the right and wrong thing to do. This will be a big part of the surprise for Cersei. And, of course, the list of people who would do that is very, very short right now!
It still might happen: it just will not be at Cersei’s trial.
I agree that Tyrion is the obvious answer to readers and Cercei, and therefore likely not the real answer.
However, every once in a while in soccer when there is a penalty kick, the shooter will score by shooting it right down the middle. The goalie assumes that he won’t do that and dives out of the way.
Grrm is very adept at surprising people obviously, and I think that we all have tremendous respect for how valid his plot choices are, especially when seen in retrospect. Meaning that whatever choice he makes, it always seems justified in the end. It isn’t purely random.
It would be pretty darn surprising if the obvious choice in this case actually DOES end up being the answer. I really have no idea how it will play out, but I think that we do a disservice by just assuming that the obvious choice won’t be correct.
You could make an argument that something as shocking as the red wedding was actually a pretty obvious possibility that none of us suspected.
Cersei could assume it is Tyrion and actually be correct in the end, and it could STILL be unexpected by us.
No, the article actually does spoil
So yeah, spoilertown in the question.
You say this, but then go on to say that Cersei won’t think twice about Dany… how is ignoring a problem a means to preventing it?
I am of the mind that Margaery will be… dealt with fairly quickly. And as long as Cersei still has her feelers out in Essos in search of Tyrion, word of the impending approaches of Aegon, Dany, and Iron Islanders will be fresh in her ears and the next logical threats to her. It makes sense that she will continue building her navy to prepare for battle against them in attempts to supersede her celebrated warlord father and truly be “the only true son [her father] ever had.” I think Cersei will identify Dany as a huge danger to her rule but, as you said, Cersei has a “very limited range of parameters,” which leaves plenty of room to be blindsided by someone she’d never expect (Jaime) and/or someone she’s forgotten about (Sansa.)
If the sense of conflict isn’t important and the stealing of the title isn’t personal then… where is the story? What happens next? Cersei is thrown in a cell for a whole book feeling sorry for herself and angry at the little dragon Queen?
If Dany does usurp the throne from Cersei, I’d much rather see SOME sort of confrontation, conflict, and personal interest between these two strong-willed women face-to-face than have them never meet and add to what many refer to as Dany’s “boring” storyline (after waiting through five books for even the slightest notion that she might finally be ready to head out to take back what’s hers.)
Note: I hope my comments never come across as “YOU’RE WRONG!” or “My way is better!” I’m enjoying the discussion and sharing of ideas!
Cumsprite,
You got red all over my herring.
Lovely thoughts Locke!
Wimsey,
As a reader that never did much discussing… I never bought the Wylla theory for a second. NO I didn’t get R+L=J on the first read (I admit that)… but – “like Snape cannot be a real bad guy”, “Ned cannot father a bastard”. It just didn’t follow any character logic whatsoever for me.
Phyllis Ashley,
Yup, Sansa and Jaime that’s who I want! 🙂 Or Tommen on the outside chance- tricking Cercei into taking the tears with him in a moment where they will be soon dead, Jaime finishing her off, putting her out of her suffering? Tears aren’t pleasant if I remember correctly… ?
I don’t think that we’ve seen the last of Sandor, I think he still has a role to play. I just don’t think it will have anything to do with Cersei’s trial/being a champion of the Faith.
James Rivers,
That whole interview is a joke
Moving right along, footloose and fancy free. Will this prophecy even be fulfilled? Where are the credentials on this Margaret character? She could be a Muppet for all we know. Kermits long lost sister or cousin.
When Cersei received her prophecy was there a gold brown bear there wearing a brown hat telling jokes? If so, then I’d say there’s a good chance there will be some silly shenanigans forthcoming and the joke will be on all of you theorists. I mean seriously have you ever seen the sun rise up in the West? Bear left. Right frog.
Sue the Fury,
Is it bullshit, though? EW did this same thing with season 4 last year and everything they “predicted” (including the mammoth) came true.
But yeah, I agree that this is probably not a “psychic”, per se.
It’s not: it’s a means of encouraging it. Of course, it’s best to state that Cersei is not ignoring the problem: she is misidentifying it. Still, that is what will make the Young Queen prophecy Macbethian. Tyrion summarizes Cersei very well in Dragons: she is impossible to counsel because she already “knows” what is happening. Cersei has identified Margaery as her problem: and nobody is going to convince her otherwise. And what Cersei will do to avert the Young Queen prophecy is going to make it much easier for the Targaryens (and thus Daeny) to cast Cersei down and take away all of her power (i.e., the thing she really holds most dear!). Varys’ tactics here are very sound!
There will not be such a confrontation. Cersei wasn’t going to let Stannis take her alive, and she won’t let Daeny do so. That means one of two things is going to happen. One possibility is that Cersei will flee or otherwise be absent, in the hopes of reclaiming the throne. That seems most plausible if Myrcella is still alive. The second prophecy is fulfilled sometime after that.
The other possibility is that this is when Jaime kills her: particularly if Jaime fully realizes at this time the true extent to which Cersei’s malfeasances have ruined everything that they had. (Ignoring the Targaryen threat until it was too late would be another brick in the wall here.) If, for example, Cersei’s actions shatter the alliance with the Tyrells (which is looking quite probable!) and if that leads to the death of one or more their progeny, and if that (say) causes the Tyrells to defect to the Targaryens, well, one could see Jaime’s displeasure. (Indeed, it would be amusing to see Cersei’s actions to prevent one prophecy not only cause that prophecy to come true, but also contribute to the fulfillment of the second one.)
Jaime will probably die at the same time, as we’ve gotten multiple statements that they will die together.
the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.
That should eliminate Jamie from the conversation
Well, Ned might have fathered a stillborn bastard: but, then, that might have been his brother’s child! Moreover, Ned is a horrible liar: he seems to prefer dissembling. So, if he said that he dishonored his marriage vows, then he probably did. However, implying that he got Jon as a result almost certainly was a dissemblance.
It is a small sample size issue (I know), but given that Game of Thrones has become a topic of discussion of late, I have had multiple conversations (one as recently as Thanksgiving!) that went along the line of :
Me: “so, who do you think that Jon’s mother is?”
Other: “Doesn’t the book say it was *struggles for name, usually gets something with a W*?”
What is interesting, of course, is that when you suggest that it was Lyanna, the reaction is almost always the same: that sort of eye-widening, mouth-slightly-dropping in which you can almost see the light-bulb above the head! That’s a good thing: when readers do get this (assuming that they do), then they will feel like it was hidden in plain sight rather than just brought in out of nowhere.
(That written, in days of yore, there was a definite “Team Wyalla” in modern parlance; I have no idea if that still exists; it was the third team after Team R+L and Team Ashara. I can only assume that the revelation that Ashara had a daughter has only further convinced Team Ashara that they are correct…. :))
This video goes to great lengths at analyzing this same prophecy:
Paral,
Martin said hodor plays a bigger role in upcoming books
Wimsey,
It’s r & l
jentario,
I know, I was just mad at them for spoiling her identity without warning. They do this at times with books and movies and TV and they do not seem to care. I should have kept a list over the years. I do recall being spoiled about the big event at the end of Season 4 of Dexter by them, for instance.
They also asked the psychic about Beyonce (you can see that in the photo I took), Big Brother, Serial and Halloween costumes.
Flora Linden,
There’s an implication she cursed them both via blood magic, the third girl ran out and turned out fine
We can se from Mirri Mas Duur they can do this (Khal Drogo)
So IMO it’s not just a run-of-the-mill prophecy like what’s happening in Dany’s storyline a fair bit
Question is can these be undone within the ASOIF universe, I reckon some R’Hllor magic could do it in the books. Will have to see, we have to go to Asshai and see what’s there exactly, which is what Joer Mormont was trying to do with Dany for whatever reason
Ser Curly of the Fingers,
I think the “pale white throat” is being overlooked.
Perhaps this will be Tears of Lys, are there any other poisons in the books that have this impact?
Nicole,
Good points
I think he beat her to death, and he does seem intent on bringing Fany to westeros, who is already a Queen of Mereen by right of conquest let alone Westeros (depends on whether Aegon VI is legit)
This may only be of interest for Luka Nieto but one of the actors, Jamie Darlington, who is appearing in ep. 509 (as per IMDB, his casting itself isn’t news, I posted it here a week or so ago and the wiki has added his name already) has this photo on his instagram and again on his twitter. He mentions Lannisters in his post (misspelled of course), so maybe he’s a Lannister guardsman or something? Though he looks to be wearing chainmail instead of Lannister armour and that sword has a stag on it…so who the heck knows.
James Rivers,
Can you tell us the name of the psychic? I want to see if she’s reputable.
WeirwoodTreeHugger,
Yeah there was something about “Ser Pounce chased away the bad cat”, the very same one Arya chased as part of her Braavosi Water Dancing training, then there’s the fact Arya is starting to warg Cats (and Cat is her mothers name ha!) since she became Cat of the Canals as well as Nymeria as Arya Stark
I reckon there is something in there about Arya returning to KL and using that Cat to a cope the joint out, not sure if Tommen was on her list though?…
Greenjones,
Lol,
Looks more like it’s relevant to the northern storyline
Clitorismestra,
Natalie Singer.
At the risk of embarrassing myself to with an idea that’s snorting drink through your nose stupid – please bare with me I’m a spoiler but not book reader – I take it everyone is certain the little brother is definitely a person and not a ephemisum for something that kills you by restricting your neck/breathing like being hanged/beheaded/choked with poison? While reading this I thought of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2, they were known as something along the lines of fat man and little boy. Could it even be that Cersei ends her own life along those lines when she realises she has lost everything? (I’m thinking poison or hanging here, beheading yourself, although presumably possible, would be quite some trick!)
I’m just writing this as it occurs to me and I might be a complete idiot so just a nice no, you’re missing the point because x, y, z is fine as an answer thanks 🙂
Oh I just worked out how to do a proper smiley – go me! 😀
Blind Beth,
Gendry would make more sense than Edric Storm
Eric pretty much seems to have been a plot device relating to Stannis’s morality and the issue of using children for the Kings Blood. Would say that controversy is continued by the issues surrounding Mance’s son and in the future Shireen which the show seemed to touch on
Gendry in the books at least seems to have a continuing role, is presumably not the oldest of Roberts bastards (I think Mya Stone is older or even the oldest, fathered when Robert was fostered with Ned at Jon Arryn’s castle in the Vale).
That said, all of the above seems to be a lot of twisting and contorting to make sense of a character filling a role, rather than the story playing out and a character like Jaimie filling the role which like others have said IS ironic given the focus on Tyrion but given the Cersei/Jaimie relationship it would have meaning rather than just being ane vent
Same with Sansa being the Queen mentioned, if Dany comes in, her exposing if Cersei is an event that occurs during a power transition, however if Sansa does it then it would all be a much more fuller experience narrative wise because of the history betweent he characters
Fits in with the undercurrent of the prophecy telling which is everything is completely different to what she initially presumes and she is blindsided which IMO will be the undercurrent of how it plays out
First Cersei thinks she has nothing to fear from Maggy and is headstrong and thinks she is in control, secondly she thinks she will marry Rhaegar but instead marries Robert so nothing played out as she thought it would. She even thinks of Jaimie and his dedication to her when Malara asks when she will marry Jaimie
Think then how she thinks she is in control of Sansa and has her under her thumb. The reason she thinks of Margaery as a threat is because of the fact she can’t control her and her influence on the mob/Tommen. Think also how she thinks of Jaimie as her partner in ruler ship, she always wants him to be the Hand and close to her, and her protector (Kingsguard) a bit like a Rhaegar substitute. Doesen’t consider him any kind of threat at all unlike Tyrion
Also “all that you hold dear”, has to be remembered that she was merely the daughter of The Lord of the Westerlands/Casterly Rock at the time, she even used her father as a threat, so I reckon that part of the prophecy isn’t just the Iron Throne but also relates to Lannister power being absolutely smashed.
Who better to do this than Sansa (or inspired by her), especially after what has happened with Winterfell as a precedent, and it was Lannister plotting by Tywin that majorly contributed to that (and there is some inferences about the heritage of Jeyne Westerlings mother) being of “Eastern descent” similar to Maggy
Have to look at Sansa’s arc as much as Cersei’s though, the marriage to Tyrion was a low point for her and the ultimate humiliation, the time in the Vale is the turning point and her rise is occurring as she is descending from the Eyrie with Robert/Sweetrobin,
So for mine Sansa and Jaimie make most sense, funny how Jaimie is actually looking for Sansa and Cersei is blindsided by any kind of threat
No matter how many times I read the passage, I still don’t see why ‘another’ instantly means another queen for the one who will be ‘younger and more beautiful’. The use of the word ‘another’ is in an open sense.
To cast down and take all that Cersei holds dear? What does Cersei hold dear the most? Children looks obvious. Don’t forget that Cersei is very paranoid at the time she thinks back to Maggy The Frog. Hasn’t she adopted Joff’s thing of reminding everyone that she is The Queen? That’s the thing she holds most dear: Her crown and her children’s right to the Monarchy.
Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds – Those words do have an ominous tone to them. I’ll ask one question. What shade of hair do Cersei’s children have as their ‘crowning glories’? What gives them away as having no right to the Monarchy? None are Robert’s bastards. They’re Jaime’s bastards when all is said and done. (Bastards don’t seem to be called by the name of the mother in the union. Did anyone else spot that?) Think on this some more. Jaime has signed on for the duration, currently holding the office of Lord Commander of The Kingsguard. He holds no titles or lands. He has nothing. Therefore, following this through, once Tommen and Myrcella are uncovered as bastards, the house of cards begins to crumble around Cersei. Faced with admitting to the truth of the matter, Cersei turns to a few drops of Tears of Lys, possibly.
Which brings us to the mysterious ‘valonqar’. Why would Maggy The Frog use a High Valyrian word? It isn’t accidental, like ‘damn, I can’t remember the Westerosi….’ at all as Maggy’s lived in Westeros for some time. This is a very deliberate use of a word that Cersei has to find out the meaning of later. Cersei doesn’t say, ‘I don’t know what you mean’, which doesn’t represent another, unallowed question. Septa Saranella simply explains it as ‘little brother’.
Obviously, Tyrion becomes the main contender, with Jaime following close behind.
Here, I return to Maggy’s use of a High Valyrian word. Why use that word?
What would link in with Valyria? While I’d love to see a dragon deal with Cersei, it’s not likely to happen as Lena Headey is a Star. Hmm? Wasn’t Sean Bean dealt a swift and violent end in s01e09? Being a Star doesn’t mean you’re exempt from violent finales. However, a beast dragon may be too literal.
Revenge is a dish best served cold. Dany and Aegon jump out now. Someone else deserves vengeance. How about Ser Grandfather delivering the piece de resistance? Hadn’t he been belittled in front of the whole court in KL, by the Lannisters? So what if he’s not physically smaller or younger. Barristan was once a brother while in the KG, and had been LC. Wouldn’t he wear something with a three-headed dragon on it?
BTW – the book version would be very different.
Er, what is? The right answer? The label for the people who support the idea? The standard annotation for the idea?
On a side note, it has been years (like, nearly a decade) since I did much on any SoI&F boards. Are the Dayneites and Wyllans still prominent? (I assume that the Robbettes are long since extinct….)
How so? It seems like that is an apt description of Cersei’s throat, especially from someone who seems to have come from regions in which darker skin tones are prominent. (Cersei would probably be unusually pale in Westeros, as noble women in particular spent a lot less time outdoors than almost anybody else.)
Edric was also a story device, too: Davos has to wrestle between his loyalty to Stannis in one sense (obey orders!), and his loyalty to Stannis in another sense (do what is best for Stannis!).
However, as both Edric and Gendry are “sons” from Cersei’s point of view (step-sons of a sort). Moreover, neither is a protagonist, and neither would probably worry too much about snuffing Cersei. That would take away any contribution to the story: it would just be arbitrary plot. The biggest problem is that it also would not cause a last moment, eye opening: “Oh, Maggy meant that brother!” moment for Cersei.
I agree 90%. I would rephrase it: her power. If, for example, Tyrion takes over House Lannister (a definite possibility), then it might be that the House remains powerful in the end. However, that’s probably worse for Cersei than having House Lannister fall completely!
Indeed, while we are reveling in possible ironies, wouldn’t it be wonderfully ironic if House Lannster led by Tyrion winds up in better shape at the end than it started? All of Tywin’s maneuverings will secure the general end that he (Tywin) so desired: just not the specific end that he desired!
The big problem with Sansa is, again, she’s not in any line to become Queen of Westeros. Moreover, she is on Cersei’s radar. Given that the prophecy also makes it so that Margaery will cease to be a problem for Cersei before the end, Cersei might well turn her attention to Sansa. (If I recall, then Cersei had considered Sansa as a possible “Young Queen” candidate already.) That would deprive us of the “oh crap, why didn’t I ever think of her?!?!?” moment that makes prophecies so amusing.
Wimsey,
Yeah, I had that dumb expression on my face I think too… the “R+L = J” slack-jawed thought. I never THOUGHT about who Jon’s father/mother is much though. it never seemed important. I think it’d be funny if the characters in Westeros NEVER figure out the truth.
I thing Ned dishonored his vows emotionally, not physically. That’s enough sin for him.
Ser Curly of the Fingers,
TWO reasons for my choices…
CERSEI admitted Sansa is beautiful…. the first time she met her. It should not blindside her, but it will.
CERSEI literally created the “golden hand” that will strangle her. It should not blindside her, but it will.
I got to do that during the show! It had been so long since I had thought about SoI&F that I’d forgotten these sorts of things: but when Ned said goodbye to Jon, a lightbulb went off and I remembered all of the usenet discussions from 12 years before…..
Perhaps: but some Stark seems to have fathered a daughter on Ashara Dayne! It might have been Brandon who was the father: Selmy does note that grief for her lover might have influenced her suicide (or suicide attempt), and that better describes a dead lover than one fighting on the other side. Still, given Ned’s character, he would have been most comfortable using the truth to deceive rather than flat-out lying.
In Crows, doesn’t Cersei recall that she had once considered Sansa a possible Young Queen? Cersei might go back to that again.
Wimsey,
I’d go with Jaime for the POV. Cersei is decending further into madness. Her POVs were getting increasingly more interesting yet harder to work out what she was thinking was the truth or a delusion/result of her paranoia.
Can easily see them ending eachother and Jaime dying but part of me hopes Jaime makes it out alive as he’s my favourite character and I think wise old characters ( which I think he will become) are going to be few and far between when the curtains draw shut on ASoIaF. I like characters who’ve been involved with such povital and iconic moments to last as long as possible!
James Rivers,
Thanks. So this psychic actually works in the film industry. She is also an excellent painter. Her bio:
“I’ve worked in the film industry almost all my working life doing a lot of different things including tiny roles, assistant to various movie stars, a couple of years for the Aaron Spelling Company. I did script analyses for years. I’ve spent most of my life in New York and Los Angeles and am presently in Nashville. Through it all I kept on drawing and painting. And now people are buying my art which is just amazing for me to experience.
Oh…I also have a form of psychic ability which allows me to access information about people and events in their lives and other info as well….. I do private readings through referrals. But I’m really excited about working on a column focusing on pop culture predictions. Coming soon…in 2015.”
Thanks for the good read, Locke !
James Rivers,
Melisandre’s got new competition…for reading the signs incorrectly 😉
Rygar,
C’mon, I’m pretty sure they already did that story on “Muppet Classic Theater,” along with Rumpelstiltskin and the kids’ classic: Blackwater.
Yeah, Martin and B&W both have done pretty good jobs of transforming Jaime from someone detestable to someone with whom you can at least empathize, if not actually sympathize. (The same is true of Theon.) Martin does a bit more in Crows & Dragons than the show has had opportunity to do, but the Dorne plot line should offer ample chance for Jaime to continue evolving in that direction. However, I’m not banking on a happy ending: if anything, then this will make a tragic ending a bit more poignant.
The POV will be interesting. One style that Martin has not yet invoked is “baton passing” POV where Protagonist A is the POV character in one chapter with Protagonist B being a third party, then having Protagonist B be the POV character in the next chapter, and with that chapter beginning before the end of the prior chapter so that you read some of the same events from two different points of view. It is possible that Martin could do that here. (Of course, this is one place where TV has it easier than books: it’s easier to have two Protagonists simultaneously being the focus of a scene.)
Hopefully it won’t take Martin 18 months to figure out exactly how he wants to do this…. 🙁
Heh, well, it’s the same principle. The prophecies and the flames always are literally correct. However, the interpretations are not always correct! (It’s no different from a color blind person insisting that a red object is brown in some ways.)
I CANT BE THE ONLY ONE MAKING THE MAGGY THE FROG/KERMIT THE FROG RAINBOW CONNECTION??????
Total non-book reader here, but not a spoilerphobe! Thanks for this post. Very interesting. Perhaps the deliberate use of the High Valyrian word may be the biggest clue why this specific prophecy will be used in the show. There is much speculation that Tyrion is not Tywin’s son (also hinted at in the show), but perhaps Aerys Targaryen’s. Use of a High Valyrian word out of the blue supports that Tyrion may be the one to end Cersei’s life, but the more important point of this prophecy could be to hint at Tyrion’s Targaryen lineage.
Rygar,
I had no idea you felt so strongly about this.
Rygar,
It’s not easy being Meereen…?
The same evidence (“You are not my son”) exists that Jaime isn’t Tywin’s son. This is one of those “mountain out of a molehill” things that fans have whipped up, I think. At any rate, had Tywin suspected that this was literally true as well as figuratively true, then Tyrion would have been removed pretty quickly. Tywin was very prickly regarding his personal honor and his legacy.
As for why Maggy used a Valyrian word, well, perhaps we’ll learn that it’s a very specific type of younger brother (e.g., the younger of twins). Alternatively, it could just be a reference back to “I will have my brother kill her.” Maggy is simply saying that that one will kill you, not your rival: but, of course, somewhat cryptically because she does everything cryptically.
I think I must be blind, where do you see a stag on the sword?
Of the Night,
Its all there if you know what to look for.
TheLizardKing,
Someone gets it.
OK – HBO just showed their 2014/2015 Happy Holidays blurb – quick pics for GoT – Jon Snow, Tyrion (in his new disguise) and Arya on a shore with her old disgusting rags on. That’s pretty much it.
And a short clip of Cersei walking with some Lannister soldiers behind her.
Rygar,
You seem to have missed mine though.
Of the Night,
I was concurring with you. 🙂
Wimsey,
Ah yes, for some reason I was thinking of the Strangler when first heard of tears of Lys (late at night), tears would leave her in weakened state ala Jon Arryn, so the strangling would be while she is near dead anyway to “finish her off” or alternatively as a mercy killing
Agree about Tyrion, if he came in later it would be like JonCon taking over Griffins Roost, eg there are legit family members with allegiances to a different King/Queen, so if Tyrion came in and took Casterly Rock and was recognised as it’s Lord under a different regime that would still qualify as “taking all that Cersei holds dear”. There’s something about the fact Tyrion was put in charge of the sewers and cisterns that I think may come back to be relevant. Under such a scenario the Lannisters influence would still be diminished IMO, eg contained in the Westerlands
An alternative is that Jaime will play the role that Illyn Payne would have played had Stannis won at Blackwater: he might kill Cersei in the end to prevent her from being taken by Daeny or someone else.
As for Tyrion’s past as sewage manager, well, I guess that will mean that guests to Casterly Rock will get lots of droll stories about how good the plumbing is!
I do read the books, just to clarify that point. The show is a separate entity, an adaptation, so I try to keep it that way.
Tyrion was my first thought, but, there is more to explore with this part of the prophecy. Cersei will go with Tyrion, and that tends to make me wonder about anyone else. There’s hate in her decision process.
Going back to the earlier parts, could it be the younger version of herself that’s the one who will come along? Cersei does seem to be going deeper in the darkness. There have been clues to this in the show. I’m interested in seeing how this plays out once it’s on our screens, with the D&D spoil that we’ll see flashbacks used. If they have Myrcella portraying Cersei…. She did tell Oberyn about missing Myrcella (mid-season).
Here, in UK, we began the complete re-run through all 4 seasons last night. (40 episodes over 12 days.) It’s as good as a re-read of the books.
Wimsey,
He was always interesting but I think that’s par for the course with “villains” but yeah they nailed the development of him to the point he’s still not fully likeable of hateable. I still mourn the loss of a lot of the Kingsguard stuff but hey..maybe that an be explored if they ever decide to do A Robert’s Rebellion prequel ( I can dream).
I think his ending will be pretty miserable or at least not happy whether he lives or not. I mean Cersei dying is pretty much a given so I think the loss of the love of his life although liberating would still be a loss he’d not fully recover from.
I’m pretty sure she never does.
The first time she ever seemed to start considering Sansa a threat was after Joffrey’s death, when she gives that weird speech in the Small Council about “the little she-wolf” being ungrateful to her for her attempts at showing her the ropes, and that she’s going to find her and get revenge (“When I’m done with her, he’ll be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss”). She never mentions anything about Sansa, or anyone other than Margaery, being the possible YAMBQ.
As a newbie here I shudder to advance a pet theory of mine, but I’ll put it up here so that someone can shoot it down in flames and we can dispose of it:
My vote goes to Aegon. My pet theory is that Jaime and Cersei are actually the children of the Mad King, conceived as a result of his tipping their mother Joanna Lannister using his “right of first night”, which we are given to understand by GRRM that he was rather keen on. If so, that makes Aegon the younger brother of both Cersei and Jaime and a still stronger candidate than others have already mentioned above.
Lulu’s Mum,
Not stupid, IMO. The idea occurred to me, but since we haven’t encountered anything like that in the books yet I’m going to keep assuming it’s a person. But if some device or poison called “little brother” does show up I’ll happily chuck my going theory. 🙂
Greg d,
Personally I’m a little tired of secret Targaryen theories and I think they’d be very cheesy if true. I make a possible exception to
Generally I am much more in favour of theories that answer questions which leave plot holes if left unanswered, and not ones that really on certain interpretations of specific lines of text which would still make perfect sense if taken at face value.
Of the Night,
Also, the WoI&F indicates that Cersei & Jaime were born too late for this idea to be true. Had there been any danger of those kids being Aerys’ rather than Tywins, then they would never have been born. Indeed, if Aerys did actually sneak first night rights into things, then there is no way that Tywin would not have doped Joanna with “moon tea” or some other abortificant immediately.
There are other big problem this. In particular, how would it be relevant to the story or even the plot? Jon’s parentage is quite different: all of the shame he has felt for being a bastard and all of his attempts to prove that he was somehow better than what people believe a bastard to be all go out the window. Moreover, that makes him a principle candidate for being
and
Another big difference: who is going to tell anybody about Cersei & Jaime being Targaryen bastards? Everybody relevant is dead. On the other hand, there are a few candidates for who knows the truth of Jon’s parentage. Along these lines, the narrative provides many hints that Ned is not Jon’s father: in particular, Ned’s very vague ways of stating his relationship to Jon, which are consistent with him being a father, but which also work if he’s an uncle. (Ned would prefer dissembling to lying.) The narrative provides no clues that Cersei & Jaime are not Tywin’s kids, unless you take “You are not my son” from Tywin completely out of context!
True: but I would be very skeptical of that! This is Martin, not Tolkien: the story is about people, not about things.
I’ve got nothing interesting to say other than Lena Headey is so effin beautiful as Cersei, especially in episode 5 of season 4, when she is talking to Margaery about being queen right after King Tommen is newly crowned.
I don’t know Lena’s exact age but I’m guessing she’s in her 40s/late thirties and just looks amazing. Plus, I personally think it’s so hot when chicks downplay their looks, yet are still stunning despite of it.
I agree that Margaery is probably a red herring as the “younger queen”, and that Dany is a more likely candidate, and that Sansa is an ever MORE likely fit for the role, now that Littlefinger is training her for The Game. And it would be a fitting comeuppance for all that Sansa and her family suffered at the hands of the Lannisters.
But I think there’s another outside possibility: Myrcella Baratheon. There are some obstacles to this, admittedly, but knowing the way GRRM likes to throw those curve-balls, it’s not outside the realm of possibility.
I also agree that Tyrion almost CAN’T be the valonquar. It’s just too obvious, and that’s who Cersei thinks it is, so it just cannot be him.
I used to think Jamie was the only other possibility, and there’s definitely much to suggest this in the books. But that seems like almost too obvious of a twist, by now.
An outside pick here is Varys. I think by now it’s obvious he is NOT what or who he seems to be. I have an inkling that he may be some lost Targaryen, and therefore the little brother of someone of importance.
Gotta hand it to you, I never even thought of Stannis. Quite possible.
And the Tear of Lys reference was very well observed. I’m re-reading ADwD right now, and that got by me.
But my dark-horse pick for the identity of the little brother who kills Cersei is…Sandor Clegane!!
Here’s why: #1, I love The Hound and will think of any way to bring him back. lol
But seriously, he IS a little brother. He has a grudge with the Lannisters, and wouldn’t it be just TOO appropriate for him to be the one to kill “Ser Robert Strong”, thereby getting his revenge on his brother, which we’ve been set up to expect since the very beginning?
I often wonder if GRRM is affected by all the speculation and theories. I’m sure he’ll say he’s not, but don’t you think he’s tried to think of some other twists, now that theories like RT + AS = JS are so well-known. I hope not. I hope he gives us the story he set out to tell and isn’t tempted to try and outsmart us over-analytical fans.
One more crackpot theory: In reading the last Barriston Selmy chapter in ADwD, I was struck by the sudden idea that Dany might not be who we think she is. Selmy makes some telling comparisons between Dany and Ashara Dayne, who supposedly had a stillborn baby by Ned Stark and killed herself by jumping from the tower. Knowing how common it was for real babies of significance to be secretly exchanged for some poor nobody’s baby, I am tempted to suspect that there’s another secret waiting to be revealed. Selmy even thinks when he looks at Dany, he’s seeing Ashara’s daughter….but that can’t be, because Ashara’s baby was stillborn, right? Hmmm…
Could NS(or some other set of initials) + AD really equal DT? I don’t know, but it’s possible. That’s what I love about these books. There are so many layers that every time I read them, I see new story elements and possibilities.
Excellent article. Very thought-provoking.
Gonna throw Rickon into the mix too for completion sake! He is the youngest of the Stark brothers after all.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Curse you! lol I meant to include Rickon and got lost in my babbling and forgot.
Nicely done. There’s no WAY “baby Rickon” doesn’t come riding back into Westeros at some point, with an army of Skagosi maniacs at his back!
No idea whether it’s Sansa or Dany as “the younger queen” but I’ve been convinced that Jaime is the valonqar for what seems like forever.
What makes Jaime the lock for the killer is that in all of Westeros there is probably only one person (other than Tommen… who will die before Cersei) who would NOT relish the chance to strangle Cersei, and that’s Jaime. He’s the only one who would mourne her, so he’s most likely the one to kill her.
Patrick,
I hope so. His “comeback” is the one I’m most looking forward to. Way more than Sansa, Dany or the Dornish. Mainly because he’ll have the full primal fury of the north behind him hungry for revenge!
I had always rooted for Jaime being the valonqar, but after reading this I’m 100% Undead Tommen. Yeah, I’m easily influenced… But that would be awesome.
In all the mention of foreshadowing and setup for Jaime as the Valonqar, there’s so much foreshadowing against the idea that it’s at least of equal weight.
For one, just because Jaime and Cersei have mentioned that they will die together does not mean it will happen. Jaime has the idea no more than twice. Cersei repeats it quite a bit. In my opinion, the fact that it has been mentioned more than once is a sign that it’s only a romantic notion of theirs because they’re so co-dependent until the end of ASoS. ASoIaF is not a romance or an epic. It’s the modern answer to the ingrained tropes of romances and epics, which indicates that in all important ways, it will not perpetuate such tropes. Jaime and Cersei dying together, even killing each other, would be a poetic, symmetrical conclusion to their arcs which certainly supports the idea that it WON’T happen in ASoIaF.
Also, unless (as mentioned by other commenters), Cersei must die in order to save others, her strangling would be an act of passion, and by the end of Feast, Jaime is not in that emotional place. He burns her letter begging him to save her. He actively chooses NOT to return to KL and help her. This may be out of bitterness at her betrayal, but he doesn’t even ponder his choice in his ADwD chapter. He is also sexually attracted to other women and thinks about their bodies (Hildy’s big knockers for one). These things advance his arc to a place where he is no longer co-dependent with Cersei. The result of no dependency is that it is not emotionally necessary for them to die together. They can both “survive” the loss of the other and still move on.
And there is the morality arc as well. Jaime, at the end of ADwD, is at a place where he regrets pushing Bran out the window, where he has shared the reality of killing Aerys with another person (Brienne), where he has learned to value his skill at strategy (Riverlands win), and where he does not hesitate to embark on the road to fulfilling his vow to the Stark girls by finding Sansa. This vow is more important to him than saving Cersei or he would have returned to KL to save her.
Killing Cersei in any act of passion would be a complete regression of character for him and very unlike GRRM in his writing thus far. Killing Cersei to save others WOULD be in line with Jaime’s arc, but that does not mean his will die. If he kills her thus, I believe he would certainly live through it since he is not dependent on her existence any longer. That would be the new poetic.
Ah, but much foreshadowing has a strong ironic component: the readers (or viewers) are told what will happen, but it appears that we were told something somehow different at the time. In this case, it sounds like a quaint romantic notion. It won’t be: but it also will not be any less true.
Where Jamie is now is not quite the point: it is is the arc on which Jaime is traversing that seems to be headed to this place.
All of this could be viewed as necessary evolution of Jaime’s character to be the one to kill Cersei. Thrones’ Jaime would do anything for Cersei. Crows/Dragons Jaime won’t do just anything for her and he now regrets some of the things that he has done for her. Crows/Dragons Jaime is, after all, on a quest to prove that he is Tywin II: but he is instead proving to be an individual of conscience. That conscience could prove to be key to having both Jaime and Cersei die at the same time.
So, instead of being a complete regression, this really could be the end of the arc.
Hello All,
I kept focusing on the idea that it could be anyone’s “little brother” when it struck me… (granted I have not read many of the books and most of my understanding of this series is from the show and online articles) Could it ultimately be Peytr Baelish?
Cat refers to him in the series to Ned, saying he was a “little brother” to me.
Here are some of the bits that have me thinking this:
He seems to be behind most of the pivotal moments in the series. Including aiding in Jeoffrey’s death.
He is grooming Sansa for the game of thrones ( and she is described as very beautiful… this would keep with her being the next queen).
Maggie spoke English the rest of the time, why not say little brother, in the prophecy if it was her actual brother. It’s odd that Valerian would be used making it even more vague than just “little brother” — perhaps because it was a term and not a relation? Which brings me again to littlefinger, he is the one no one expects but seems to always say explicitly that is what’s he is after.
Just a thought I wanted to share (don’t mind the spelling errors — I am hopeless without spell check ;o)
It was fantastic reading this article and all the comments, it’s given me so much to contemplate as this next season gets underway. Happy Watching!
krtmd,
Jaime is the Valonqar, Sansa is the new queen already married to Tyrion bastard son of Aerys. Tyrion, Jon and Dany ride the three headed dragon.
Not sure about the Princess/ young Queen. Either Sansa or Arianne Martell probably, but the Valonquar is Euron Greyjoy. The Iron Fleet is about to save Mereen. They will be the ones who take Daenarys across the Narrow Sea and they will want something in return when they begin to sack Kings Landing Iron born style. Cersei will be Euron’s salt wife so that he may have Casterly Rock signed over to him, then he will poison her with ‘the strangler’. The Iron born will have the Westerlands and the Reach by paying the Iron price…. and a bit of poison and treachery too.
Firstly, the comment box should not be at the bottom of hundreds of comments, but at the top.
Second, I believe “gold will be their crowns” refers to their golden hair, not necessarily that myrcella will also be crowned
any chance the valonqar is the littlest dragon sibling, Viserion?
Daenarys takes over the throne, and sends her dragons out to eliminate the remaining Lannisters. Cersei and Jamie could be killed off simultaneously in two separate locations.
Huge reach…just a fun twist.
I think it’s still possible for Tommen to be the valonqar.
“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
I don’t think the prophesy explicitly says that her children will die before her. The tears that drown her don’t necessarily have to be caused by the death of all her children, I’m sure from this point on there will be a lot for Cersei to cry about. They are obviously going to die (but not necessarily as children) and by saying ‘gold their shrouds’ it seems that the Lannister/Baratheon family will still be in a powerful enough position to warrant a gold shroud.
I think it’s reasonable to think that at some point Tommen is going to find out about some awful thing his mother has done (possibly against his wife out of jealousy in her thinking that Margaery is the younger queen) and kill her. At least I hope!
It’s a stretch, only mentioning this because I hadn’t see it suggested…….valonqar=Rickon Stark? Shaggydog?
dragonglass,
Now that I think about it, Shaggydog would be awesome, lol…….for Lady, for Ned, for Robb, for Grey Wind, etc.
dragonglass,
Thank you so much for posting on this thread. It was originally posted while I was on a break, so I’d never seen it.
Way, way, way after the fact, but what a great and interesting read.
RandomSand,
Using the same logic, it is safe to exclude Tyrion from being the Valonqar.
Since Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion, and we only learn about her Unfaithfulness through other characters. It is safe to assume that Cersei and Jaime do not know that they are bastards. And that Tywin, even if he suspected, would never have admitted that the twins were bastards.
We the readers know that the characters do not:
Cersei and Jaime Lannister are both bastard children of Joanna Lannister.
Tyrion Lannister is the only trueborn child of Tywin Lannister and Joanna Lannister.
The term half-brother would be the proper term that the bastard children would use to refer to the true-born brother. Tyrion’s life would have ben very different if he had known that he was the only trueborn child of Joanna and Tywin Lannister.
Cersei’s only ‘little brother’ or ‘younger brother’ would be Jamie. I do believe that Cersei would not be straggled out of Malice. But that Jamie might give her ‘Mercy’ if they were both in a helpless situation, or out of love and respect (think the death of Londo Mollari in Babylon 5).
It would be logical to assume that ‘little brother’, ‘half-brother’ and ‘bastard’ are different words or phrases in High Valyrian.
While the “younger queen” could refer to Margary, Sansa, or Daenarys, I do believe this “younger brother” the prophecy refers to is Jaime Lannister himself. Think about it….Cersei dying at his hands WOULD be rather tragic yet oddly poetic at the same time. As much as Cersei and Tyrion hate each other, I don’t see Tyrion killing his sister.
That being said, what would cause Jaime to strangle his own sister? Perhaps it has to do with Tommen and Myrcella? Maybe she killed Brienne out of pure jealousy and this subsequently sends him into a blinds fit of rage? But it would take a lot for Cersei to overpower Brienne; we all know Brienne would break Cersei in two; she’d have to be taken by surprise.
A lot of people have their own theories and each one is quite interesting
Ok, if Cersei is the daughter of Tywin, then Valonqar should either be Tyrion or Jaime. Jaime would be more shocking and unforseen.
But if Cersei and Jaime are The mad king’s children, that would make them Dany’s older siblings and the Valonqar could either be Dany, or Jaime. Again, Jaime would shock more.
Katie,
Agreed … and one may add a possible scenario where Jaime’s motive could just be that Cersei goes completely insane after all the children die. Her paranoia & irrational demands for vengeance etc.
Edg,
Agreed … and if The twins are the Mad King’s Bastards, that would make Dany their Younger Sibling. So, she could be another viable Valonqar.
I’m thinking that Cersei ends up losing it at some point and kills Tommen herself. She was about to kill herself and Joffrey during the Blackwater. I can see her, in some twisted chain of thought, killing Tommen to prevent him from being “corrupted” and Jaime putting her down.
things you overlooked:
Kevan is Tywin’s younger brother
Loras is Wilas’ younger brother
The Young Griff, if not an imposter, is Rhaeny’s younger brother
Euron and Victarion are both Baelon’s younger brothers
Benjen Stark is Ned’s younger brother
Bloodraven is the Great Bastards’ younger brother
Trystanne Martell is Quentyn’s younger brother
By virtue of their name, any of the “Second Sons” would also be applicable
Couldn’t valonqar, “little brother” mean Lancel Lannister? He is a “brother” in a religious order. If we are saying that the choking is a “mercy killing” after the poisoning, which we all know now that he did put something in Robert Baratheon’s drink before his fatal Boar hunt, wouldn’t Lancel fit that criteria nicely? Big fan of the show. Have not read the books…yet.
The one thing everyone seems to forget is that Maggy was mad. Remember the “malice” in her eyes when she looked at Cersei before telling her about the younger more beautiful one that would cast her down. Though the valonqar may be linked, it is also quite obvious that most of her misfortunes, besides Robert’s infidelity, link back to her having had Jamie’s children instead of Robert’s.
The two p
Characters that have clearly said they want to kill Cersei are Tyrion and Arya. My money is on Arya coming back to Westeros to complete her list.
Late to this discussion, but interesting theories. i think we have to go back to the Valonqar prophecy itself. a key is that “valonqar” is the only word which is in Valyrian in the entire prophecy. This is a choice of words on Maggi’s part and very deliberate, so it should not be overlooked. The inference being that the Valonqar is someone with Valyrian DNA. Which means a Targaryen or descendent of Targaryens. Which could be Jaime. Or Tyrion. Or Jon Snow. But most likely Jaime, who isn’t Tywin’s son, but Aerys.’
If we follow this line, it also holds suit that Daenerys could be the younger queen, and foretell of a Targaryen revival. But certain things would have to happen. If the Valonqar is Jaime, then his loss or defection could strip Cersei of what she holds dear. Its clear that she values her children, but as i write this, she only has one left, and he probably wont survive Season 6. The only other thing she truly values is Jaime. But… he could either go Team Daeny or Team Sansa, conceivably. Jaime swore an oath to Sansa’s mother and he’s moving in a more moral direction of late. He’s got no connection to Daeny (yet), but she’s an obvious contender to be queen. Would she take Jaime as her king? Doubtful. But Sansa might. First Ramsey and possibly Baelish have to be taken off the board, but if they are, Jaime could become her champion. Or the younger queen may not matter at all, if it’s Margaery, in which case that part of the prophecy will have already been fulfilled when she married Tommen. One thing’s for sure: we now know the younger queen isn’t Shireen.
great post, one option i think you didn’t consider:
Jamie is killed in some fashion in the riverlands and Arya is there to “give the gift to undead Cat” (as the facelessmen would hate an entity living past death). Unexpectedly Arya has access to Jaime’s now freshly dead face.
Arya (now in the guise of Jamie) returns to the Red Keep to confront Cersie. Cersie tells fake Jamie about the death of their kids, and her having found a stash of wild fire scattered around the city she plans to burn the city.
Arya has a flash back (faces retain some memories of their past life) to Jaime and Areys. Arya knows this to be true, after being lost under the city which has untold hidden rooms and passages . Arya in a bid to save the capital, chokes Cersie with her “hands” as the “gold hand” is a facelessmen illusion. little brother (fake i know, but to Cersei it’s the real deal)
I’m still going with the Cleganebowl theory. A lot of people can’t see the faith going along with kinslaying but the High Sparrow might. There is another theory that the High Sparrow is actually Howland Reed who is Jojen and Meera’s father (Crannogmen). In season 3 you might remember Jojen telling Bran that when he told his father about his visions of what had happened to Ned Stark, it was the first time he saw his father cry. Obviously there is a very strong relationship between Ned and Howland and he is also the only remaining living soldier that was with Ned at the Tower of Joy. Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell were the other companions at the Tower of Joy and they all died at the scene. That means he is the only remaining person alive that knows who Jon Snow’s mother is. How can it be that someone so important has never made an appearance in this series?? There is also an extremely similar comparison to the dress of Crannogmen and the High Sparrow in the books. This might be a long shot but I think the High Sparrow (Howland Reed) is taking revenge and a last stand against the Lannisters and this whole High Sparrow position is a ruse he has been working up for a long time to be at the right place at the right time. From this point of view it might make more sense as to why the faith (ordered by the High Sparrow) will use someone like Sandor to fight against Ser Robert Strong in trial by combat. He will do anything to avenge his close friend Ned and to be honest, who else in Westeros would be able to take down a Frankenstein Clegane?! – The North Remembers
Arya Stark is the valonqar. Gender translations in High Valyrian are tricky. The gender error interpreting the Azor Ahai prophecy is well known. Even if it was not an error, Arya Stark has been successfully masquerading as a boy. Arya Stark is a protagonist and her entire story arc seems to be a set up for killing Ceresi Lannister.
Today, I went to the beachfront with my children. I found a sea shell and gave it to
my 4 year old daughter and said “You can hear the ocean if you put this to your ear.” She placed the shell to her ear and screamed.
There was a hermit crab inside and it pinched her ear.
She never wants to go back! LoL I know this is completely off
topic but I had to tell someone!
Flora Linden,
Doesnt Cersi call her a “pretty little dove” it’s the only time I’ve noticed her speak of beauty in reference to a contender?
Well the finale of Season 6 snips quite a few of these threads.
Re: the valonqar.
Let’s not forget that Euron Greyjoy had two older brothers, and that as a world traveler who ventured into the ruins of Valyria and recovered Dragonbinder, he probably has at least a passing familiarity with the language. (Not that there’s anyone left in Valyria to speak it, but as we know, High Valyrian is spoken in Essos, and he’s familiar with that continent.) We know from Season 6 that he wants to court Dany; perhaps the death of a Lannister queen is his intended wedding gift.
Also, consider the use of the word valonqar in the prophecy. Why is that one word in a language different from the rest of the fortune? Is it just GRRM just using a foreign witch as an excuse to conceal for several chapters a clue to the prophecy? Perhaps, but that’s a little too artless for a writer of his stature. Another ther option is that the word is used because the person who chokes her might use that specific word as a description or title. If that’s th case, it’s not likely to be someone who hasn’t left Westeros.
I’m not certain why Euron might be present in the context of a younger brother (presumably of Balin, since he was king) instead of as king himself. But with the TV deaths of half of the four primary choices outlined in this post, perhaps we should cast our net wider.
^^Brian – good call on the possible Euron valonqar. I think there is a strong possibility for it being Jamie due to his do-gooder arc and he may reunite and team up with Tyrion & Dany, but then again that’s too obvious.
Maybe it’ll be Theon Greyjoy, since his sister refers to him often as “little brother”!
Definitely think “all she holds dear” is POWER!
Who said it has to be Cersei’s little brother, there are hundreds of little brothers in Westeros. But my money is on Jaime.
If Sansa is the younger woman to cast Cersei down, it is possible that the valonqar (gender neutral term for younger sibling) is Sansa’s, ie. Arya. It is also entirely possible that Arya will wear Jaime’s face while choking Cersei.
The valonqar = The hound. I think he will fulfill the third part of the prophecy. He will fight his older brother in a trial by combat which Cersi will re-legalize now that Tommen is dead and she has Gregor by her side.
Diljomo,
I think it will be the Hound in a trial by combat with his older brother.
Valonqar=Sandor Clegane
If Valonqar is a gender neutral Old Valyrian term (as we know Azor Ahai is), then the prophecy could refer to Arya Stark. Especially if she were wearing Jaime’s face (which would also account for Jamie’s golden hand).
This would be perfect revenge for Arya – to make Cersei believe that the person she loved most killed her. And to Cersei, it would still be her valonqar.
Mano,
I was thinking the same thing. If it’s another High Valerian word that has no gender attached it could be Arya. That she might do it wearing Jamie’s face would be a great twist. I’m still not ruling out Jamie though.
@Mano, That’s what I was thinking. Or it could refer to Dany, who is the younger sister. Either she or Arya would work. I’d prefer Arya.
Don’t know about the books but the show certainly had dumped this prophecy bit years ago back in Season 1 Episode 2 (when Cersei visits Catelyn who was sitting beside an unconscious Bran following the fall from the tower in Episode 1)….
Cersei revealed then that she had a son with Robert (he was black-haired and looked like Robert) who succumed to a fever…
And this can’t be a cooked up story by Cersie because…
This was again mentioned in Season 1 Episode 5 when Cersie had a sort of cozy talk with Robert over a wine after Ned Stark had resigned as the Hand of the King…
Umesh,
But King Robert did produce sixteen children, and Queen Cersei did produce three. It’s just that none of these children were produced by both the King and the Queen. The witch told the truth. The witch just didn’t tell all of the truth, or contextualize for Cersei the part of the truth provided.
“Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”
Does the “another” necessary have to be another queen? Could the “another” simply be “someone else” in the broadest sense? And if not a queen, then this could be a male or a female. Further, does “more beautiful” have to mean physical beauty? Why not inner beauty? Cersei is high on the physical beauty end of the spectrum, but low on the inner beauty end. I don’t think Tyrion will be Cersei’s killer. However, consider the following. Long before Cersei became a queen, Tyrion unintentionally killed their mother by his birth. Much later, during Cersei’s time as Queen Regent, Tyrion both antagonized and brought out the monster that was Joffrey, which ultimately led to Joffrey being poisoned by the co-conspirators Olenna Tyrell and Petyr Bailish. Tyrion also made the marriage alliance which put Myrcella in Dorne, which Ellaria Sand later used to her convenience to kill Myrcella as partial revenge against the Lannisters for the death of Prince Oberyn Martell. And Prince Oberyn was only in the position to die as he did, because Cersei cooked up murder/treason charges against Tyrion for the death of Joffrey, and Tyrion ultimately chose trial by combat. On the night of his escape from King’s Landing after the trial, Tyrion killed his and Cersei’s father, Tywin Lannister. And Tommen later killed himself, due to the events regarding the High Sparrow and the Faith of the Seven, events which likely wouldn’t have transpired if Tywin Lannister had still been alive to be Hand of the King after Tyrion’s trial. He likely would have seen to it that Cersei married Loras Tyrell and relocated to Highgarden (as was planned), and he would have crushed the High Sparrow and his Faith of the Seven in its infancy. Tyrion has also always brought out some of the worst impulses in Cersei, just be virtue of his existence. And eventually Jaime tires of this and leaves Cersei and King’s Landing.
Bill,
But mere bhai (my brother)…as far as the show is concerned, in Season 5 Episode 1, the Witch specifically said “No” to the question of Cercei (“Will the King and I have children?”)…so either the show spooked it up at that time or it’s just like they referred to in the latest season: “Prophecies are dangerous (rather say confusing) things.”