If you were starting to think that the cast of Game of Thrones had run out of juicy tidbits and ominous quotes about season 7 so close to the premiere, well, think again. Sophie Turner has dropped some hints about Sansa’s “strong and steely” persona next season and teased the theoretical return of a beloved character.
In an interview with Express, Turner discussed Sansa’s ever-evolving relationship with her siblings, specifically, with Jon, whom some would argue stole her spotlight last season when he was declared King of the North after she more or less secured his victory at the Battle of the Bastards.
“She definitely feels left out,” Turner admitted. “There’s a little bit of jealousy there. She feels like she deserves the title of Queen in the North.”
Many of the characters’ motivations can be tricky to decipher but, according to Turner, Sansa’s internal conflict next season is quite straightforward: “All she wants is the respect of her brother, and she feels like she’s not getting that. Fair enough!
“She’s very strong and steely this season. She’s in it for herself. Whether that means going a bit dark… you’ll have to see.”
Turner also addressed the oft-discussed possibility that Hodor might return to the show as a Wight (a scenario that Kristian Nairn himself has entertained as, well, not impossible).
“Anything can happen,” she said. “I’d love to have Kristian [Nairn] back, but Hodor as a White Walker might be slightly terrifying.”
Hodor.
Still no info on the Red Carpet Premiere or premiere episode title. Strange times.
I hope the White Walkers get to her first.Maybe that way she will get the crown and validation she so much desires lol.
sophie have the worst interviews ever, she dont have any idea of what part she is playing, is really cringe.
Oh, gods. Here we go again.
[goes to investigate household popcorn inventory]
Wolfish,
I think everybody should just copy paste their comments just like Sophie copy pastes her interviews lol.
How many episodes do you think the White Walkers will be in this season?
Jenny,
LOL! Yeah, I wouldn’t even call that an “interview.”
I’m not sure how Jon “disrespected” Sansa, but… Wait. Nope, don’t do it. Back awaaayyy from the keyboard, Wolfish. Go prepare some snacks and plot moves in those three Words With Friends games.
I thought I was looking at a redhead Cersei. what the hell?
Do you guys think we will get other EW covers?If so when and where?What about a Rolling Stone cover?
So, how about them (insert sports team here)?
Jack Bauer 24,
My guess would be 3 episodes.
Jenny,
I doubt it for EW; they’ve already done a pretty major promotional push. Has Rolling Stone *ever* done GoT publicity? I let my subscription lapse years ago, so I don’t know.
I’d love to see Food & Wine do a GoT-themed menu and wine pairings. 🙂
Wolfish,
I am not very good at self restraint but I am trying to reign it in lol.This is literally me when I read every interview of hers:
https://media.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/giphy.gif
Jenny,
LMAOOO!!!
Lot of Sophie/Sansa hate here.
uh-oh-dor.
Jack Bauer 24,
I’m gonna go with premiere. e6 and e7.
Wolfish,
I think they might have one mid season like the Jon’s alive one last year.I don’t know about covers but Rolling Stone did do the iconic photoshoot with Lena,Alfie,Kit and Emilia.I would like a new one.
Pigeon,
So how has the weather been in your country Pigeon?It’s been quite hot in my parts.
My first reaction was, “What? Not again!” I’ve always thought she was over-covered, but these days it’s as though nobody else even gets a look-in, I’d much prefer to hear from Lena, Peter, Maisie, or even Hodor. Kit continues to get coverage, but his PR approach is much more varied and insightful.
Jenny,
WOW. I hadn’t seen those! They’re wonderful!
It turns out Rolling Stone *has* done at least one GoT cover, this awesome one with Peter Dinklage:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81kO-ax5mDL.jpg
Does Sophie even watch Game of Thrones? Either that or shes a troll.
I really feel that her interviews are ruining Sansa for me. “She’s in it for herself” — “she wants respect.” Then in others it’s, “Sansa does everything for her family.” Is she a troll, for eye-catching headlines? They want us into the ambiguity, ‘will she, won’t she.’ But I’ve never had GoT make me feel like they mismanaged an arc like s6, and I guess, s7 Sansa.
She was lead in wanting to go to Winterfell. Her influence encouraged Jon to go. She was also a top-head in the first meeting — planning. Big speech about the North Remembering and they all listened to her and respected her. Then she decided to lie to Jon.
Men died for her choice to conceal. She wagered with Jon’s life. And the way they shot her on the horse, she knew and though she felt bad, Sansa was all about revenge even if it cost Jon’s life. (nevermind her using Rickon to entice Jon into to taking a war to Winterfell, grabing his hand just how Littlefinger did her, about going to Winterfell.)
I’m at a loss.
This idea that Sansa turns on Jon is all a red herring. They’re trying to throw us off the real drama at Winterfell.
Wolfish,
I know.That is my favorite Got shoot hands down.Here is Kit’s
https://www.thefashionisto.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/kit-harington-rolling-stone-cover.jpg
I don’t know why he is holding a bird lol.
“Sansa is going to betray Jon / Sansa is going to be a dark character” is the new “Jon Snow is dead forever”.
The only difference is that no one really believed the latter, while everyone is falling for the former.
Sophie and the writers are playing you guys so easily. It’s hilarious, honestly.
Sophie is as delusional as Sansa
Please not Hodor as a walker. I couldn’t handle it.
I don’t even want to participate in this thread. Two Sophie specific articles in three days is too much. 😛
Disrespect often is in the eyes of the beholder. Withholding owed respect is considered disrespectful, even if the withholder did not think that he/she owed it. It would be very consistent with Sansa to, deep down, feel that Jon should know that she comes first. She is, after all, a legitimate Stark and Jon is not.
An actors job at this time is to hype her/his part. Moreover, keep in mind that these are constantly evolving characters on one hand, but there are some core parts of those characters that serve as the basis for that evolution. Sansa has come to crave respect and independence. She has been thwarted in her early attempts to obtain this. So, the desire is still there.
But even if it were sated, then often the burn to keep gaining more persists. Greedy people can make lots of money: and still covet more. Sansa has a lot more respect and personal control than she had before. (That’s not hard: she had none and now has some!) But she still wants more because she’s probably come to see that respect & control are a form of power.
At any rate, these stories thrive on characters being at odds with themselves. Turner probably has given an insight as to what is going on in Sansa’s head this season.
Let’s just say Sophie’s acting chops are far more impressive than her PR.
And she needs to watch Season 6 Episode 10 again, because Jon gives her credit for the victory, calls her the Lady of Winterfell, and offers her the Lord’s chamber and tells her she deserves it, and then she says he should take it.
Then, when he is crowned King in the North, she’s smiling, and only looks worried/upset when she sees LF glaring.
Now Sophie’s talking about being jealous, being in it for herself, and not getting enough respect from Jon ?
She’s unbelievable. Seeing an interview of hers is always the same thing. You know it’s gonna be bad, and you know it’s gonna be a shitstorm of controversy.
Stoneheart,
Worse, actually.
Vincent Stark,
No, we know she’s full of it (or at least most of us do), we’re just wondering why she feels the need to systematically give nonsensical interviews.
Jenny,
lol, accurate gif is accurate. I looked like that for awhile, but now I just skip her interviews entirely and enjoy the comments instead. Based on what I’ve seen so far, I’m guessing she’s pretending that the Winterfell battlement scene between Sansa and Jon didn’t happen again?
If this is true, then it is another set back for her character…. did she learn nothing living in Kings Landing… sound like Cersei 2.0 – making short sighted selfish decisions that only back fire…
I thought she was supposed to be learning from all the ‘players’ she has been around, I guess she learn to repeat their mistakes.
I hope this is a mis-direct trolling Sophie interview and not truth!
I want a Sansa-Arya-Bran love fest (I know, that wouldn’t make good TV, but there is enough conflict, I what some snuggles with these three 🙂
I don’t think most of you do.
She feels the need to systematically give nonsensical interviews because her character act this season is going to depend heavily on the ambiguity of her storyline.
For the most part of the season we won’t know (well, shouldn’t know, anyway…) if she’s going to side with Jon or Littlefinger. Therefore ,the writers and Sophie have been propping the importance of Starkbowl since last season when (imo) It’s never going to happen.
FREE BIRD!!!
elybe,
Yup like always.Remember how in the books Sansa would start thinking that the hound really kissed her and stuff when he really didn’t.That’s Sophie in interviews or maybe that’s what’s happening to Sansa in the show lol.
It isn’t hate – we LIKE/LOVE the Sansa character and don’t want to see her character written into this antagonist scenario… again… selfish, shallow, only caring about herself, WANTS to be queen, WANTS respect – would respect it more if she EARNED it and had her family’s back.
All these comments look more like comments of concern to me.
eh, I’m not too sure about that. I half suspected that they were forced to yank the character because GRRM had not yet published Winter!
As for “Dark Sansa,” it misses the point on one hand – this is not about “light” or “dark,” but about conflicting goals – but it is on point in that people always consider their goals to be “light” and conflicting goals to be “dark.” Sansa’s goals are not going to be Jon’s goals. Jon’s fight is with the White Walkers. Sansa’s fight is with the Lannisters: we have no indication that White Walkers even are on Sansa’s radar.
Here is the other consideration. If you are watching the show, then you probably think that the Walkers are the main enemy. Moreover, you probably are going to feel that someone not taking the threat seriously is either dumb or malevolent. (I’ve seen that view expressed here more than once!) Turner is watching the show: she knows what’s happening. Sansa is not: and Turner knows the extent of Sansa’s ignorance. The characters know much, much less about what is happening than do the viewers or the actors. My bet is that Turner’s comments reflect this.
Sansa never has been an antagonist (except for Sansa) and she’s barely been even an adversary. Or does your “again” point to “this argument” rather than the role?
I really must say that her interviews make no sense to me considering what we’ve seen from her last season. She SMILED at Jon whe he got proclaimed King in the North. I really wonder if she’s trying to mislead us…
That’s my only comment on this thread though.
Vincent Stark,
I think you’re missing the heart of the complaint, which is that Sophie seems to truly believe that Sansa’s resentment towards Jon is justified, when, to most of us, it isn’t. I was genuinely perplexed the first time I heard her say this, because if Jon did anything to dismiss her or not acknowledge her contribution, it was NOT evident on-screen.
Are you suggesting that Sophie is not being truthful about that? Because honestly, I hope that’s the case!
Markus Stark,
Yes, that’s what I think every time she posts those interviews. I honestly think she’s trying to mislead us…
I don’t think Sansa is going to betray Jon, but I don’t see how being in it for herself is character regression.
In the beginning of the story, she desired power so her life would look like a song. Now that she has been used, abused and betrayed by everyone she trusted, she desires power so she can be independent and protect herself. I don’t see what’s so regressive about that.
After all she’s been through, It’s not surprising she has issues with trusting people. She trusted Littlefinger, the man who “saved” her life and professed his love for her, and look what she got for that.
Imo her arc this season will be about the conflict of desiring power to protect herself (independence) versus having to trust and rely on others to survive (family).
The wolf pack line really sums it up.
LMFAO
I adore Nathan Fillion, this is my favourite gif of him, and could not be more perfect…😂 I wish she’d just say “Sansa isn’t sure what she wants, but is trying to learn” instead of blah blah boss-ass-bitch blah blah steely blah blah power.” Then people might believe her, and if she did do a kickass “Well heyyyy!” power move, it’d be a twist.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/55ad887647f2e40068edde0a71c1bad0/tumblr_mxkdpmC7xP1rsrbdko1_r1_400.gif
LMFAO
I am not very good at self restraint but I am trying to reign it in lol.
I adore Nathan Fillion, this is my favourite gif of him, and could not be more perfect…😂 I wish she’d just say “Sansa isn’t sure what she wants, but is trying to learn” instead of blah blah boss-ass-bitch blah blah steely blah blah power.” Then people might believe her, and if she did do a kickass “Well heyyyy!” power move, it’d be a twist.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/55ad887647f2e40068edde0a71c1bad0/tumblr_mxkdpmC7xP1rsrbdko1_r1_400.gif
Either she enjoys trolling around and playing with the media to lead them down the wrong path, completely serious which makes her lost on what’s going on in the story, or unable to separate herself from her character which is the worst of the three possibilities because this would mean she herself thinks she deserves more attention and acclaim than others.
It has to be one of those 3. I can think of no other alternatives as to why her interviews are always so strange and steeped in things that just are not happening on screen or in the story.
Vincent Stark,
Wimsey,
It does seem that all these talks about Sansa wanting respect is a new version of Jon is dead. Not only Sophie – half of the cast and the showrunners talk about that in every interview, but they show us exactly the opposite both in the S6 finale and now in the trailer.
On the other hand it’s true that Sansa made a huge sacrifce when she pushed Jon into the Lord’s Chamber and consequently onto the northern throne. I guess Jon hasn’t realized how big that sacrifice was (and neither did the fandom). However, I can fully immagine Sansa wanting some sort of payoff like getting respect three times per day, as well as Jon being to busy with other issues to give his sister what she wants. That may and probably will result in quarrels, but it’s obvious that Sansa will make the right decision in the end… and once again her sacrifice will pass unnoticed.
Watch the scene again.
When Lyanna starts her speech, Sansa is smiling, thinking she’s about to get crowned.
When Lyanna starts saying “I don’t care if he’s a bastard…” Sansa starts looking confused and distraught.
It’s only after Jon looks at her for reassurance that she smiles for him. (and probably only to keep up appearances).
Sansa is not happy about Jon getting crowned over her, lol. It was a real Miss Colombia moment.
Once you start to notice it, It’s actually a pretty funny moment, lol.
Jenny,
Interesting. It’s a falcon, and of course falconry has been practiced for millennia (and was widely practiced in the Middle Ages). Normally the falcon would be hooded; I suppose they wanted to show its face as well as Kit’s. 🙂
Sophie has a history of trolling
Remember that interview where she hinted LSH might make the show, lol
Just let it go.
Shes trying to mislead everyone.
Lord Parramandas,
I resisted responding to any of your comments on another current thread, because I have enjoyed your occasional posts in the past and was disappointed by your perception of the current fandom as being overly critical and not passionate or positive enough.
As someone on that other thread noted, a big part of what you’re seeing is probably just frustration and over-analyzing because it’s been a long wait between seasons. But following this “interview” (I put it in quotes because it barely qualifies as that), I hope you understand a little bit of many fans’ frustration. It’s not necessarily about hating or under-appreciating Sansa (or any other characters), as much as it is, in this case, about questionable choices on the writers’ part being exacerbated by Sophie’s really confusing statements about her character’s motivations.
Actually, when Lyanna first starts talking about Jon, you can see her face flicker, because up until that point she thought that scene was leading up to her being proclaimed ruler. The point of her smiling at Jon is her putting on a good face, which falls away when people are no longer looking at her, and she sees Littlefinger.
Markus Stark,
“because Jon gives her credit for the victory, calls her the Lady of Winterfell, and offers her the Lord’s chamber and tells her she deserves it, and then she says he should take it.”
Speaking from Sansa’s perspective, who is Jon to ‘offer’ the Lord’s chamber to her if she is rightful Queen of The North?
Do you think the Northern Lords knew that Jon had acquired the master bedroom before Lyanna spoke up, or did someone have to whisper the news into Manderly’s ear offscreen before he was like, “Oh shit, I had no idea Jon scored the Lord’s Chamber. Crown this man ASAP.”
Vincent Stark:
I find the second point quoted above quite compelling. However, on the first I would argue that Sansa did not desire “power” in the beginning of the story; she didn’t even understand the meaning of power. For her, being queen was about pretty frocks and glamorous dances and an endless supply of lemon cakes. Oh, and her golden boy Joffrey.
Joffrey, uuuggghhh.
[pours another glass of Arbor gold, vomits in mouth a little]
ramses,
She is not the rightful Queen of anything.Her father was not king.Case closed. As I said I am not very good at restraint lol.
Jenny,
The North just declared sovereignty though, right?😀 Case open….?
ramses,
You’re right, he didn’t offer it. He said he was having it prepared because it was hers. And after that, she refused it. Thank you for strengthening my point.
mmmmhmmm maybe in another reality, girl
https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/logosrupaulsdragrace/images/1/1d/DELUSION.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160206053550
Inga:
Wait, what? Maybe it’s all the Arbor gold I’ve consumed on this foggy Sunday afternoon in my neck of the woods, where June tends to be Junuary…
But I digress. How, exactly, is this a “sacrifice”? Why would Sansa want to be Queen of the North? If Vincent Stark and Sean C. are correct—and they did make compelling points about how that scene was shot, and how her facial expressions changed—then she’s as delusional as her mentor Littlefinger: both thinking about rank and titles and power and who gets to sit on the Iron Throne or be proclaimed Lord/ess of Winterfell, instead of concerning themselves with, uh, the future of the world as they know it.
By her own admission, Sansa knows nothing about warfare; furthermore, we know damn well that she has neither a strategist’s mind nor the ability to recruit allies. So she wants to “rule” because…?
If Sansa’s story arc this season is really going to be about who holds the title in the North, then I don’t give a damn whether or not she lives. Given that she’s surrounded by people who have seen what the real threat is, if she won’t look beyond her silly childhood fantasies she deserves whatever calamity befalls her.
ramses,
Exactly they declared for who they wanted to.Which they are prone to do.There is no rightful anything.Case closed again.
Vincent Stark,
It’s interesting how different impressions of that scene can be: what I saw Sansa’s eyes was releaf and satisfaction and that’s in line with her earlier decision to give Jon the Lord’s Chamber. Sansa was more or less aware of the WW threat, she got the message that winter was here, and she realized that despite of all his shortcommings Jon knew about battles much more than she did (and he knew the enemy). So, she encouraged him to stay in command and did her best to make her position clear. Littlefinger temted her, but she didn’t falter. So, there was no reason for her to be unhapy about Lyanna’s speach. IMO, your interpretation has been misguided by all these interviews.
Sean C.,
I just watched it, and I think you and others are reading too much into her look. I didn’t see any of that on her face. She just looked like she was listening intently and faintly smiling.
I saw no “confused and distraught” look like someone here (I believe it was Vincent Stark) mentioned. I saw no flicker, no jealously.
But I’ll concede that at this point we’re just arguing over whose interpretation of Sophie’s facial expressions is correct.
And we have to remember that how an actress chooses to play a scene, or how a director tells her to play it, doesn’t necessarily line up precisely with what the writers intended the character’s feelings towards something to be.
If the script doesn’t give any direction, the actors and directors essentially come up with their own interpretation, and most of them, as good as they are, don’t understand the intricacies of the story and character motivations, as is often evident in their interviews.
D&D aren’t present for every scene when it is shot, not even close. The writers may not have intended for Sansa to have any resentment at all. This could just be how Sapochnik and/or Sophie chose to play that scene (if they indeed chose that).
It seems Wimsey is one of exceedingly few who get it. Last season Sansa was pretty much robbed of her birthright in front of her eyes. No matter what anyone thinks of her or Jon, she is the rightful heir of House Stark. In a world where blood is almost everything, being passed over is a huge insult and disrespect for Sansa. Sophie is right on point, which can’t be said of posters here…
The funny thing is that in the books she’s disinherited by Robb and probably won’t even get Winterfell. That too might go to Jon or one of her other siblings.
Curious to see if everyone who thinks she was usurped last season are going to say anything if she usurps Bran (provided he crosses the Wall of course).
elybe,
lmfao you never fail to deliver the #facts
“All she wants is the respect of her brother, and she feels like she’s not getting that.
Jon Snow is only person that gives Sansa respect.
Jon gave Sansa the main living quarters at Winterfell and for all Jon cares Sansa can be the Queen of the North…. Jon wanted to get some sun and have some fun in Dorne.
Sansa was in a perfect place to be Queen of the North if she could of (would of) played Ramsey better and given Ramsey what Ramsey deserved herself.
Jon Snow is the new Ned Stark times 100!!!!!!!!!!! oh well Sophie is Sophie
Inga,
I agree with you 100%.
Markus Stark,
That Sophie’s acting abilities are better than her PR?
IDK. She definitely gets a lot of buzz with her interviews 😁
Or were you talking about Jon acting in deference to Sansa?
In which case, I guess we’ll see what happens post KiTN scene!
Mr Fixit,
What birthright?She has Winterfell.That’s her birthright.Well it’s Bran’s but we are a couple episodes early.Who says that the king or queen needs to be a Stark.??After all there have been other kings in the north who weren’t Starks.
Jenny,
Yes, yes. There is no rightful anything. Only what you think you deserve. Sansa has every right to think she deserves to be Queen👸🏻.
(Meh, I can’t get the blonde Queen to work on my emojis) 😆
ramses,
I mean in that case I deserve to be queen too.
Jenny,
HAIR!!!!
You’re wrong on two points. The first is that she is not the rightful heir, due to the existence of Bran, who both Jon and Sansa know to be alive (or possibly alive). Furthermore, one could argue that Jon is King in the North while Sansa is still the Lady of Winterfell (pending Bran’s return). In other words, one could view being King in the North as a separate position that the Northern Lords vote on, without regard for inheritance laws.
I don’t necessarily think this makes a lot of sense, but that may have been the writers’ intent. D&D aren’t exactly known for handling succession in the most elegant or logical way (Dorne (and arguably the Reach) in Season 6 proved that). This could be how they view the interaction between the positions of King in the North and Lord/Lady of WF. The new season will need to clarify if Jon is both King and Lord of WF or simply King.
Second, even though I agree that in this world being passed over would be viewed by most everyone as a huge insult, that does not answer the question of how Sansa personally feels about it. Those are two separate issues.
Sophie seems to be indicating that Sansa is angry about it, but that doesn’t seem to be how the writers view her character. If she was so keen on ruling, she should have just accepted to have the Lord’s Chamber, taken charge at the meeting, and declared herself the new leader of House Stark. Instead she pushed Jon into a position of power.
So yes, many people in this world would be insulted if this happened to them, but we don’t know if Sansa is actually meant to feel that way or not. Regardless of what Sophie says, the character of Sansa is what the writers make her. If they make her okay with it, then she’s okay with it. Maybe that choice on the writers’ part would itself be worthy of criticism, but that’s a separate issue. What we’re trying to ascertain is if what we saw last year and what we know of Season 7 lines up with Sophie’s view.
I agree with you.
Since her father died and Robb went to war, Sansa has been the key to the north. Because of her birthright, she has been through hell. Now that she is finally widowed and free to rule on her own, her bastard brother snatches her crown (and her wig, since she now borrows Margaery’s) right under her nose.
Is it selfish of Sansa to resent him? Very, since the fate of the world means much more than who gets to rule the North.
Is it human to feel jealousy like this? Yes.
I would much rather watch an season of Sansa having conflicting feelings about Jon but ultimately choosing her family over her selfish feelings instead of having no conflict at all.
Jenny,
Jenny of Da Norf!
firstone,
OT: First One or Fir Stone?
It would seem, in a world where titles and claims are created by mere humans, many of our main characters have a claim to something.
Both Sophie and Maise are horrible at interviews. Sophie goes on and on about how strong Sansa is and Maise lies. I get that they can’t spoil the upcoming season but usually actors/actress say they can’t say. Instead these girls create these huge exaggerations. I don’t know why I even bother reading their interviews anymore. I guess because they do interviews way more often then the other characters.
Cersei’s Brain,
I KNOW
ramses,
Thank you,thank you.You can be my Davos
No sweet summer child,
I’m your Cersei 😂
#dontyoudaredavosme
Markus Stark,
There’s a reason the final episode was accompanied by a video specifically talking about tensions between Sansa and Jon, and with the writers themselves talking about it in the BTS.
There absolutely are inconsistencies in how this whole thing is written, but that’s because the writing isn’t very good.
This is something that I very much would like more people to talk about. Out of all of his siblings, Bran is the one who has actually ruled Winterfell and he did it well. Not even Robb did that. There is really nothing but stupid excuses as to why he can’t be Lord of WF if he ever where to return.
On the topic of Jon and Sansa knowing Bran is still alive– all they know is that he went north of the wall and if I were Jon at this point, I’d consider him lost :/
elybe,
In fact, it’s hard to say how much time has passed between the moment when Jon took the Lord’s chamber and the gathering of the Northern lords, but it should have taken a week or two to summon them. And by that time it should have been publicly known who was sleaping in which chamber. By default people pay huge attention to such detais when a formal hierarchy is unclear. I don’t think that any additional clarification was required.
Wolfish,
Well, Sansa was wise enough to realize that she wasn’t fit to rule – just like Theon. But IMO for both of them renoucing their birthright was rather painful, because when you renounce something you are entitled to you become kind of good for nothing either in your owns eyes or in public or both. And that’s frustrating, so any person who makes such sacrifice needs endless appreciation just to be persuaded that he or she is not totally worthless. If not, some sort of outburst becomes inevitable – justified or not that’s life.
Clob,
Hahahahaha the minute I saw this post I came looking for your comment lol!!!!!!!
It’s okay… everything will be okay. Hahahaha *virtual hug*
Vincent Stark,
This x 100
Sophie is a troll. It is known!!!!!
OT: she posted a photo on Instagram with our PM which was awesome!!!
Inga,
Excellent point. One can only hope that, in the face of the existential threat coming down on Westeros, Sansa will be able to put such feelings aside.
Don’t leak people know what’s going to happen? Why do people let Sophie’s comments get to them?
#ihaveNOTreadtheleaks
Sundae,
“Out of all of his siblings, Bran is the one who has actually ruled Winterfell and he did it well. Not even Robb did that.”
By Westoros standards, yes. Once everyone knows Bran is alive he has a claim to Lord of WF title as well as KiTN.
Bran ruling WF well though….
He lost WF to the iron islanders. That might be held against him even if he was only a child when it happened.
I hope we get more actors interviews soon, Sophie’s tend to be all the same about her seeking power, Jon not respecting her etc
To be honest, I think Sophie is over exaggerating things and doing a lot of trolling. There may be a bit of tension between Jon and Sansa due to the events of last season but I don’t think it’s gonna be as big of a deal as Sophie is making it out to be.
LOL I am a known Sansa/Sophie fan, I feel the same way, wtf is the use. Haters gonna hate. Its 115 degrees where I am, too much energy needed
Oh and what is she talking about???? Sansa knows Bran wasn’t killed by theon, sothey should assume he is alive… meaning he is the rightful heir.
Anyway. Ugh. Leave my Jon alone 😫
Can’t Jon Arya Bran and Sansa all be together? And be friends? 😞
Sean C.,
Well we can definitely agree on that.
I guess the production is giving mixed signals deliberately, so that who Sansa sides with is a “surprise”.
I just wish they were capable of telling an engaging story without feeling the need to make us doubt Sansa’s allegiance to her family. It’s just silly at this point, it isn’t compelling. Her position on LF was clear last year, she even told Jon that “only a fool” would trust Baelish.
Honestly I’m at the point where I just roll my eyes whenever Sansa is on screen. She has reached Dorne levels of irritation for me.
Sean C.,
I don’t think it’s a problem of writing, I think it’s a problem of pranking. Look at the trailer: Sansa ascertains herself as a part of the pack, but then we get this interview and it’s all over again.
Sundae,
You’re right. That reminds me of what a stupid writing decision it was to have Sam tell Jon about Bran (for those who don’t know, he doesn’t in books, because Bran knows Jon would come looking for him and makes Sam promise to keep quiet).
Like honestly, Jon has known since early Season 4 that Bran is North of the Wall, and he has done nothing to find him. You would think he’d have at least sent a small ranging party when he became Lord Commander. Obviously that wouldn’t be a smart move because he’d just lose men, and there would be little to no chance of actually finding him, but come on, Jon wouldn’t be able to help himself. We saw how desperate he was to save Rickon. It doesn’t feel right that Jon has just abandoned Bran to his fate.
Plus, to Jon, who doesn’t know about Bloodraven, Bran’s expedition North must have seemed like a puzzling suicide attempt.
Thronetender,
OMG. Stay cool, my friend!!!
I’m not a “known Sansa fan,” but neither am I a hater. Seriously, people… Save it for the Mountains, Joffreys, and Ramsays of Planetos.
I was wondering if they would bring Cersi’s children back as white walkers. Can the white walkers bring back the dead?
Dee Stark,
Assuming Jon told Sansa that Bran went North, the logical assumption would be that he is dead, not alive.
Inga,
It’s also writing though. Sansa’s dialogue and actions in Season 6 give off mixed signals at best, and are outright contradictory at worst.
Not to mention the fact that it’s hard to understand what the writers think of Sansa being passed over, given how they’ve treated succession laws in other situations. It’s unclear if they think Jon’s coronation is problematic from that standpoint, or if they conceive of the King in the North position as a separate institution from the Lord of WF position.
Inga,
You don’t know when in the season she says that, or in what context.
Wolfish,
Yep, have a large bowl already. Tho honestly I might want to disengage from this post. Tired of the subject
Lady Lyanna Mormont for the iron throne!,
They can only bring back the dead, as the living are living, and hence do not need bringing back.
Markus Stark,
Good point!
Anyway, I think it would be odd if Sansa didn’t question her position (with Jon being a bastard).. I just hope it’s not over the top drama that would lead to Sansa being an antagonist (in my eyes lol)
I love Sansa and the story she has had so far, and I want to keep it that way. But if she does turn out to be an antagonist, then that is just truly who she is, tying back to, and I’ve said this before, the incident which got her dire wolf killed, and how her direwolf was killed, compared to the other Starks.
Markus Stark,
Well, a part of the reason for Jon wanting to go and kill the mutineers at Craster’s was so he could be on the lookout for Bran. However, this was never mentioned again so I don’t know if we’re just supposed to assume that Jon gave up after that? It’s not like it was a very thorough search and Jon never mentions Bran again, not even to Sam. It would have been nice to get a little comment or something when they heard about Rickon being captured, but oh well.
Lady Lyanna Mormont for the iron throne!,
“I was wondering if they would bring Cersi’s children back as white walkers. Can the white walkers bring back the dead?”
Joffrey, Myrcella and Tywin were buried at The Sept. Their remains were rendered ash after the explosion.
Which is why Cersei tells Qyburn to burn Tommen’s remains and place his ashes with his family.
IDK where her mom is buried. Perhaps, WW can raise bones from the ground? That hasn’t been established yet….if they can.
SANSA THREAAD CUE DRAMA
Inga,
I’m not sure they were that confused about hierarchy, what with Jon being a bastard and all, but I would think if Jon and Sansa had added a P.S. to the meeting invitations to alert the lords as to where Jon’s bedroom was, A) they probably would have proclaimed him KitN before the meeting, and B) some of them might have reminded Jon that Winterfell still has a nearby brothel if he’s that hard up.
Vincent Stark,
Was Ned KitN? Did I miss that bit? How is Sansa entitled to be Queen when Ned wasn’t even King in the first place? Sansa is now Lady of Winterfell. She was never entitled to be Queen of the North. The Northern Lords decided to name him that. Sophie’s constant whining about not being a Queen is starting to be really annoying. She constantly puts down Jon and there’s Kit who never has to berate another character to lift his up.
You must have watched a different show than we did. Jon led the expedition at Craster’s and part of the reason for that was to find Bran. At that time Jon also knew all the Wildling villages were abandoned because they were all with Mance preparing to attack (he even mentions this in a scene he has with Sam where he’s planning the expedition). Craster’s was basically his last chance to find Bran and since he didn’t find him there, it’s easy to assume that Jon believes Bran has perished. His only companions are Hodor and two kids. Of course Jon believes the odds are against Bran.
Bran travelling beyond the Wall isn’t a puzzling suicide attempt if Jon believes Bran has nowhere safe to go as a result of the Red Wedding. Not to mention with the sack of Winterfell and Jon being gone ranging and with the Wildlings, communication is scarce and Jon is probably not getting a lot of updates as to where his brothers might be.
truth!
Vincent Stark,
Many of our characters are legitimate sons and daughters of noble houses, so yes everyone has a claim to something. For example, if Edmure and his kid die, then Riverrun will go to Bran.
Once Bran is found he has claim to the lordship of Winterfell and that’s it. As for KITN, Jon can name Bran his heir if he wants to. Jon became King by proclamation due to his efforts in the battle and frankly it would be ridiculous af for Bran to show up and demand to be made KITN for a battle he didn’t even participate in. “Hello, excuse me for missing the battle and everything, but make me KITN now k thanks!”
And Bran ruled Winterfell well. Robb took most of the men to war, so Bran wasn’t left with a lot of soldiers. He sent the soldiers to defend his people against the first ironborn attack, as was his duty as acting Lord of Winterfell. He made the right decision. The Ironborn would have continued to pillage the North and kill innocents, and Bran would have looked weak in front of his people for not fighting back. It’s not Bran’s fault Robb took all of the best fighters with him (and it’s not Robb’s fault he had to take so many men…he needed all the soldiers he could get, considering he was outnumbered by the Lannisters). It’s also not Bran’s fault Theon decided to be a traitor bitch and disobey his father’s orders. Taking Winterfell was a dumb idea.
Flayed Potatoes,
I don’t think show Robb left any instructions as to who is heir would be in the event of his death. So, Bran, as the eldest surviving Stark male heir, has a claim.
I know how impossible Bran’s position was against the Iron Islanders when he was Lord of WF, I don’t blame him for what happened. But, still… politics being what they are…some Northern houses might cling to that as an excuse to back someone else.
Jon, Arya if she ever arrives, or someone else😀
“Arguing over interpretations of Sophie’s facial expressions.”
What was it thst Yogi Berra said? Something about how this “feels like deja vue all over again.” ?
It sure feels like we’ve been down this road before. Like every year.
I want to like Sansa. I really do. Something as simple as a smile every now and then would help. Maintaining the same sulking face doesn’t endear her to viewers.
I thought her big skill set was supposed to be using courtly charm or something like that. She could have and should have taken a lesson from Margaery about how a pleasant smile and kind words can help achieve a young lady’s objectives more than an inscrutable look that confounds people. I don’t know…I just kept reading how her politeness and social graces supposedly enabled her to survive. I’d really like to ser that side of her. For a brief moment at the end of Season (?) when she waltzed doen the stairs in her black dress and coyly suggrsted “Shall we go?”, I thought we’d be seeing thst side of her. But then it went poof! the following season.
I wouldn’t lnow how to apportion responsibility if an actor doesn’t convey her character’s emotions The director? The writers?, Tbe actress? That we’re still debating what was going through Sansa’s head in the KitN scene is kind of idd
But without naming names, I will say that there’s another cast membee whose facial expressions inmistakenly convey the character’s emotions.
Also, is there any indication that Sophoe’s script in thst KitN scene didn’t give her directikn ? I thought Benioff and Weiss are notorious for their colorful script directions (Carice VH once explained how her script directed her to respond to Jon declining her advances with a look that said “Bitch, please…” Maisie W said her S4e10 script of her scene meeting Brienne and talking about ther similarities directed her to smile as if thinking “I like this weirdo”).
Maybe if the scriptwriyers orcstory editors fleshed out that Sansa had earned on merit and was rightfully entitled to be crowned QitN, Sophoe T wouldn’t have to “campaign” for it in interviews, and it woukd justify hee cherscter feeling slighted or disrespected. Because if the story doesn’t portray Sansa as justified in feeling unfairly pased over or deprived of her birthright, it kind of does Sophie a dissevoce if she has to explain and defend Sansa’s state of mind.
(There is an easy solution to all of this|. Step 1: Put Littlefinger in woid chipper. Step 2: Press “On.” Step 3: Sandor shows up to visit his Little Bird. Step 4: Sansa flashes big smile)
That would have been very out of character for Jon for several reasons. First, Jon is not in a position to send out ranging parties until weeks or even months after he learns this. By that point, it would be much, much too late: any trail from the old castle would have been long-since wiped out. Moreover, Jon knows that he needs all of his resources for dealing with Wildlings and White Walkers. Given how thin that Watch’s resources are stretched by these things, and given how serious Jon is about his duties as Lord Commander, he would not have wasted valuable resources on a selfish quest. (And, no, Jon did not do something like that in the books: Jon basically allowed someone else who had resources to do something like that.)
It is much too late in the story for Sansa to become an antagonist for Jon or anyone else. At this point, that sort of character development is done: what evolution we are going to get is not going to be reaction to antagonists, but final sorting out of the ever-present “Am I the person who makes mistake 1 or mistake 2?” question.
At this point, if something like this has not been established, then it probably will not be. Any guns that have not been hung by now will be Deus ex Machina if they suddenly drawn and fired. (We had the same discussions 12 months ago regarding the possibility of Old Gods reviving Jon or Jon becoming some “superwarg” who could cloud-storage his complete mind in Ghost: the fact that we did not know that these things could not happen did not make it acceptable to use them as plot devices.)
Many people interpreted that as a forced smile. Courtesy is a lady’s armor and all of that.
ramses,
No, but book Robb did and the show is adapting key moments from GRRM’s outline. Jon becoming KITN is a key moment.
Including Robb’s will on the show also means introducing a lot of new characters and D&D probably thought it would be too complicated. So instead of Jon getting a crown as a result of Robb’s will, you have Jon earning his crown as a result of Jon’s deeds. Which I assume to D&D is a lot more powerful.
I doubt the North has any bad blood with Bran. They might even be in awe of him that he’s managed to survive against all odds (AND north of the Wall to boot). Bran handled himself very well as lord, whereas Tyrion completely embarrassed himself and lost everyone’s respect during his stint in season 2.
The North already supports Jon and are focused on fighting the WW. Arya also isn’t interested in playing petty political games either, especially against her family.
So much for the Spell Check feature
I do love Sophie, but she is silly and naive. I believe that she believes most of what she says, but that doesn’t bother me too much because she seems to let the writers and directors do all her thinking for her on set, following their directions and suggestions to a T. And so she brings a nearly perfect Sansa to the screen, which is what truly matters.
Regarding Sansa, I’ve been thinking a lot about the journey of the hero, the anti-hero, the villain, and the anti-villain this week because that’s what I’ll be talking about next Sunday. I believe the biggest differences between the hero (Jon, …) and the villain (Cersei, Ramsay, LF, Night’s King, …) and the anti-villain (um, Sansa and I won’t even bring up the other two) would be that the hero is driven by a call to serve others while the villains and anti-villains feel that they are called to greatness, leading to a sense of entitlement. Jon never felt entitled to the role of king whereas Sansa appears to feel just that. And even though she is, by her blood and proper rules of succession, more entitled to the throne than Jon, it is her reaction to Jon being chosen that is the most interesting element.
I’m claiming the anti-villain’s journey will typically begin with this character undergoing a supreme ordeal (tortured by Joffrey and then by Ramsay, in the show, at least), then initially rising above her surroundings (rising above Joffrey and Ramsay and the ways they treat her), by being called to greatness or believing she is called to greatness (sense of entitlement), by being transformed into doing some truly evil things (perhaps as a means for good results), regret for those truly evil acts, and then bittersweet redemption (perhaps via some sacrifice or the ultimate sacrifice). While we are meant to hate the villains with a passion, I believe that George means for us to love his anti-villains.
I doubt many will debate that Sansa has been through the first couple of stages of the supreme ordeal and rising above. I happen to believe that Season 6 Sansa was in the midst of both her call to greatness and a little bit of her transformation to evil. Here is the evidence for Sansa I plan to show for Sansa being in these stages:
1. In D&D commentary on the Sansa’s meet with LF at Molestown followed by her sit down with Jon, Davos, Brienne, Tormund, and others at Castle Black, we see Sansa telling Jon about the Blackfish taking Riverrun. When Jon asks directly how she knows, she lies and says that Ramsay received a raven before she left.
D&D: “She is starting to look a couple of moves ahead.”
“Sansa is showing us the ways in which LF has shaped her ways of looking at the world.”
“LF still has some kind of a hold on Sansa.”
Littlefinger seems to be calling Sansa into greatness this season, and there may be some evidence that she’s answering that call.
2. In the BotB episode, Jon lays out plans with Davos and Tormund while Sansa is present but not directly addressed. When Davos and Tormund leave, Sansa admonishes Jon for not asking her how to deal with Ramsay. Jon directly asks Sansa for battle advice, and rather than tell the crucial, life-saving information that LF and his massive army are on the way, she says she doesn’t know anything about battles. Rewatch this scene and decide for yourself if Sansa shows a sense of entitlement here in the way she interacts with Jon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4xbwo6nrhs
3. Sansa’s facial expressions throughout the entire BotB are quite interesting. Keep in mind that tens of thousands of her men have just been brutally slaughtered and her brother just came within inches of losing his life. Does Sansa’s face show entitlement? Disdain? Superiority? Pride? https://youtu.be/3WlH4E64M28?t=1m12s
4. In the “King in the North” commentary, Kit says, “He’s not listening, watching and observing [Sansa], and I think that could be a real problem for him.”
Liam says, “Jon is the right man for the job. We all want a leader who’s going to be decent and honorable. And I think he’s definitely entitled to be running Winterfell, although Sansa might have a problem with that, I fear. Her relationship with Jon Snow, I think, is an indication of what’s going to come. And I’m not sure it’s going to be pretty.”
Sophie says, “He’s named King in the North, and she kind of gets no credit for it. Jon doesn’t acknowledge everything his sister has done for him, after all that they’ve been through.”
Does this speak to Sansa’s sense of entitlement and a potential betrayal?
5. In a different commentary video for that episode (perhaps Inside the Episode), D&D say that there is “Definitely a hint of conflict there….” There’s a “little bit of anger… little bit of jealousy….” And “that relationship will be crucial to watch.”
Again, does this speak to Sansa’s call to greatness and a potential betrayal?
6. Sansa seems to stop rising above the level of her captors and possibly even sinks to their level of villainy as she orders and watches her husband be eaten by his own hounds, turns and walks away, and then smiles.
In that scene, Ramsay says, “You can’t kill me: I’m part of you now.” She denies this ferociously with her words, but what do her actions say?
In commentary from D&D, “This isn’t the little girl who wanted to dress up like a princess anymore. Her walk away at the end of this scene – and that’s one of my favorite shots we’ve ever had – there’s just a little ghost of a smile on her face. She’s in Winterfell, but she’s not the person she was when she first left.”
I’m sorry, Sophie is lovely and all, but this is not just trolling. I haven’t forgot about her obnoxious behavior at comic con last year. And it’s just crazy to me how she keeps repeating this “Jon didn’t give her credit. Jon doesn’t acknowledge how important she was in their victory”. She once said that a fan approached her on the street and started to recite Sansa’s lines to ramsay when he watched him die. Except Sophie had no clue what that fan was on about because she didn’t even remember those lines, lol. Plus, whenever she’s asked about scenes from season 6 she says she didn’t watch yet because she doesn’t have sky on her flat. To sum it all up: she’s clueless about what goes on on her own show.
The fault is not entirely hers though. The writers and director told her that’s how sansa’s feeling and she since she’s clueless she just goes on and on repeating the same nonsense on her interviews.
Seeing past interviews from others seasons, before Sansa and Jon reunited, Sophie focus was shading daenerys. That leads me to think perhaps Sophie wants for Sansa to be queen in the north moreso than Sansa herself. There, I said it. And this is not “Sansa hate”, it’s actually a mix of frustration and concern. Sansa herself held Jon’s hand and reassured him after they got Ramsay’s letter: “You are the last son of the true warden of North. Northern families are loyal, they’ll fight FOR YOU, if you ask”. She knew the north wouldn’t rally behind her despite her name. She propped him up as the stark poster boy the entire time. What else did she expect?
And what is that talk about respect, eh? She sat at the war council telling them all what do, they all listened to her and did what she wanted. She kept telling Jon they needed more men but provided no solution to this problem and let him go to war, knowing that the knights of the vale were just around corner waiting for her. Even after that, Jon told her that he was still standing because of her. What in seven hells does this girl wants from him?
Wimsey,
“At this point, if something like this has not been established, then it probably will not be”
For sure. I don’t anticpate wights to start rising from the grave.
What number this thread is in which Sophie turner speaks about the same thing ..
Haven’t we seen her talk about that smile before in any of the interview in the last months ..
I don’t remember but there was a interview from Emilia where she talked about daenerys some 10 days ago ..was that posted here at WOTW
Season 6 Premiere episode title was announced 17 days before the premiere. Season 7 Premiere is 17 days away this Thursday, so hopefully we get an announcement this week.
Flayed Potatoes,
“The North already supports Jon and are focused on fighting the WW.”
This will undoubtedly will be the case. I never meant to suggest otherwise. Just thought to look at other Stark’s possible perspectives.
This! Not all negative comments are because of “hate”. I’m Team Stark and I love all of them, including Sansa. However, I also can’t help disliking what’s being said in the interviews (mind you, it’s not just Sophie – D&D, Kit, and Liam said the same thing as well about Sansa’s jealousy). I just would like all four of them to be reunited and remain a pack forever and ever. LOL. Of course, this is GOT so that’s likely not going to happen.
Yes, and this is the reason the reactions from some fans here is understandable. It’s a normal reaction. The audience know that there’s a big threat coming and Jon is going to be too preoccupied with it and in the process may “neglect” the needs of his sister. And if the sister turns into a “how about me?”/”where’s the respect?” mode, people will see that as being self-absorbed. And that’s fine. Not everyone would have the time and willingness to go deep into the character (like you do so well with Sansa, LF, etc.) and understand where the character is coming from. But if we all just pause and think about it, all characters, even antagonists like Cersei and Ramsay, have their own deeply-ingrained motivations for doing what they do. It won’t be much fun though to do that for every character! 🙂
I also thought I was going to refrain from joining in, especially since the topic has been discussed so many times! 🙂 But I miss commenting here and I’m just glad for this non-spoilery thread. 🙂
If S7 premiered with Silicon Valley and Veep again this year the season would have been over already. We have a brand new season in 3 weeks!
Lady Lyanna Mormont for the iron throne!,
Ehrm, yeah. We saw the Night King do that at Hardhome, so we know he can.
Jack Bauer 24,
At this time next Sunday the Red Carpet season 7 premiere could be happening!!!
At this time in 3 weeks the internet will be on fire with millions of Game of Thrones watchers posting about the first episode of Season 7… The hype is getting stronger every day.
Flayed Potatoes:
Something I’ve seen only one other person comment on (to the best of my memory) is that Sansa ought to control the Dreadfort now. She’s the last living Bolton!
Inheritance doesn’t work that way. She’s a Bolton – and surely there is someone out there with at least some Bolton blood.
And for the same reason Cersei has no claim whatsoever. She took the throne because she could. It’s made pretty clear that Cersei only had power before because of her kids – and that only through some political maneuvering (and only with their consent).
ramses,
Actually Robb told his mother about a will and who he named as his successor
BTW I read all these comments before reading the interview and had braced myself for something really off the wall. And she says basically nothing controversial. “Maybe that means I go a bit dark” and “she just wants her brothers respect”. Hooily cow there’s some insane overreactions. But again – it’s a Sansa thread so what else is new.
Jon went to Craster’s Keep mainly to deal with the mutineers. He gets the idea for that expedition in S04E03 after he realizes that they know Castle Black’s defenses. Yeah, Bran kind of factored into the decision, but it wasn’t the main motive, and in any case they didn’t really search at all. Jon never mentions Bran after that point, so it remains odd to me. Of course at this point he assumes Bran died, I said that myself earlier, it’s the logical assumption. It still doesn’t sit right with me that Jon doesn’t ever talk about Bran in any subsequent episode. We don’t see him discuss it with Sam or Sansa. The show doesn’t deal with it, and that’s the issue.
Your argument about Bran not having anywhere else to go is frankly a little strange to me. It should be obvious that the Wall is a million times safer than the lands Beyond the Wall. Anywhere is safer. Jon doesn’t know about Bloodraven, so he would be wondering why on Earth Bran is heading North, when he could go to Castle Black. Furthermore, Bran sends Rickon to the Umbers. Bran could have gone there too. Bran even says he’s sending Rickon there because it’s safe, and at any rate much safer than Beyond the Wall. Obviously we find out in Season 6 that the Umbers weren’t to be trusted, but neither Bran nor Jon could have known that.
So yes, Bran going North would look like a suicide attempt to Jon, because Bran did have other options. The reason Bran chooses to go North isn’t because he has nowhere else to go, it’s for a specific purpose that Jon isn’t aware of.
Queenofthrones,
Meant to say she’s NOT a Bolton.
Queenofthrones,
According to all the sources I’ve read (I use the word “sources” with a big grain of salt), there are no extant Boltons. I do believe that, if Sansa should choose, it will be as easy for her to claim the Dreadfort as it will be (judging from the trailers) for Daenerys to claim Dragonstone.
Queenofthrones,
She is a Bolton, though: Roose legitimized Ramsay, and Ramsay married Sansa. As far as I’ve been able to determine, Sansa is the last one left. Granted, being able to lay claim to the Dreadfort would probably be as distasteful as laying claim to Clegane’s Keep might be for the Hound in the event of the Mountain’s death… but a castle is a castle, no? It can always be redecorated. 😉
GW,
As far as I remember there was no such conversation between Cat and Jon on the show, but I haven’t done a thorough re-watch. Do you know in which ep this convo occured?
I don’t buy it anymore.
I was confused before by these king/queen claims but inheriting a title seems to have been thrown out of the window in both Cersei’s and Jon’s cases. One declared herself as the queen while the other was declared by the lords as the king. And so, while it’s understandable for Sophie to feel “left out”, it’s the Northern lords who took it upon themselves to declare their own king (not Jon). What would she have wanted Jon to do? Maybe something like this?
Northern Lords: “The King in the North! The King in the North!”
Jon: “Uhm, excuse me! Excuse me! I protest this declaration. If you really want to proclaim our own leader in the north, it’s Sansa we should declare as queen since she’s the rightful heir to WF. And she brought the Vale army here. Without them, we would have died!”
Northern Lords: “Yes, but she didn’t even tell us the Vale army were coming! If she did, we wouldn’t have lost a lot of our men!”
Jon: “Well, it’s okay. I mean, if Bran so happens to return to WF, we can proclaim him as king then. But in the meantime, let’s declare Sansa as queen in the north. Queen in the North! Queen in the North! Who’s with me?”
That would not have worked so well on TV. 🙂
I don’t believe that Catelyn was truly considered a Stark but rather a Tully. I don’t believe Cersei was considered a Baratheon but rather a Lannister. I cannot think of any instance where inheritance goes to the wife in this society unless the wife is acting as regent until a child comes of age.
However, Jon being King in the North could very easily bequeath the Dreadfort to his sister for services rendered in the BotB and name her Lady of the Dreadfort. I’m not certain she’d want either, but I could see that happening.
Ginevra,
Following on several comments other people have made on several posts, women can claim inheritance and/or title under certain circumstances. As far as I’ve been able to determine, there are no remaining Bolton cousins (or other relatives), and as we well know, no direct heirs. Furthermore, the Dreadfort is in the North. It is only logical that Sansa should be able to claim it in the absence of any other legal heir, by blood or marriage.
What do you think the premiere rating will be?
Jon is a MAN (men are from Mars). He is not equipped to read Sansa’s mind. He has no idea that she feels under-appreciated. He assumes that they have the same feelings and value systems.
Sansa is a WOMAN (women are from Venus). She is not equipped to read Jon’s mind. She has no idea that it would not occur to him to praise her daily. She assumes that they have the same feelings and value systems.
Even Siamese twins can have totally different feelings and value systems.
The important thing is that they both love their family and their home. Sansa’s joy when reunited with Jon was genuine, and she felt SAFE for the first time in years.
Thanks to LC Jeor, Lyanna Mormont knows about the WWs. Jon was elected KitN specifically to lead the fight against them—not a political enemy. Sansa knows she is not qualified to do this and that Jon is everyone’s best bet for sheer survival.
Her rejection of LF’s advances in S5 convinced me that she will not fall for his scheme to use her. He will try, especially if Brienne is not around.
Even though she and Arya didn’t get along as kids, she will be equally ecstatic when her lil’ sister arrives. Bran will be icing on the cake! I have zero doubt that all Starks will do the right thing for The Pack and for Planetos.
P.S. I’m almost sure that the title Lord/Lady of Winterfell is separate from King in the North because L/L of Winterfell is not automatically Warden/ess of the North. Cersei promised this title to LF in S5.
Lyannabanna,
I hope you’re right about all of this. 🙂
Me too… I figure Ned and Catelyn did not raise their kids to do otherwise!
Sam,
Honestly, that’s the exactly how some of the most rabid protestors have said Jon should have done, lol.
That wig looks terrible on her head. Like Pippi Longsocks or something.
Raffael,
Lol. Really though? The thread is so tame at point of this comment. I’m hoping it’ll get better as I scroll down cause I frankly enjoy Sansa controversy 🙂 She’s one of those love to really dislike (hate too strong) characters.
Wolfish,
Sansa has no claim to the Dreadfort. She is a Bolton by marriage, not by blood. Just like Catelyn Tully has no claim to Winterfell and Olenna Redwyne has no claim to Highgarden.
Sam,
Exactly!!! Those who think that should have happened are delusional.
Elizabeth,
That is the way any logical person saw it. I can’t even with any of the other nonsense anymore.
Sam,
Lmao…you win the comment of the day!
Markus Stark,
If you have two heirs running for their lives you never keep them in the same place. Bran sent Rickon there because he thought it was safe. Jon doesn’t know Bran did that. Jon didn’t know the Umbers had Rickon until season 6, so yes it is possible Jon thought no place was safe. Even in the books Rickon is on an island of cannibals. So they thought an island of cannibals was safer than any northrn house. Not surprising for Jon to believe nowhere in the north is safe. Remember the Ironborn still held some castles at the time, and staying in Bolton territory would have been risky.
The Wall also does not guarantee you safety. It is a neutral institution which plays no part in the affairs of the seven kingdoms. Unless, Bran and Rickon become NW members and give up their claims, lands , and titles, the NW would have to hand them over to the Boltons. And you best be sure Slynt and Allister would inform the Boltons. Heck, the Boltons thought the Wall is such an obvious hiding place, they sent an assassin to kill Bran, Rickon AND Jon (even though his vows mean he is no competition for Winterfell). So yes hiding at the Wall is not as safe as you think. Jon also cannot keep them there, especially as a mere steward suspected of fraternising with Wildlings (which was his position at that time in season 3 and 4, when Bran and Rickon were runaways). The Walk is also undefended from the south side, so a small Bolton army can easily storm CB and kill all the Starks. To prove my point, even in George’s original outline, Bran seeks shelter at the Wall and Jon has to refuse him because of the NW vows… so Bran has to go north of the Wall.
Jack Bauer 24,
At least two Jack potentially three I would guess.
As for Sansa if she really does face up to Jon there will only be one winner and it won’t be her.
Flayed Potatoes:
I understand that Sansa “is a Bolton by marriage, not by blood.” My point is that there are no other Boltons, to the best of our knowledge. Just as women inherit family titles when there are no men left to inherit them, do they not also inherit family titles (granted by marriage) when no blood relatives remain? If Sansa has no rights to the Dreadfort, as the widow of the last known living Bolton, then who does?
I only scrolled halfway through the comments- its the usual Sansa/Sophie hate.
It seems clear (at least to me) that her comments are deliberately ambiguous, reflecting the ambiguity of Sansas real frame of mind. And as usual it’s got folks all riled up. The words of LF and Sansa that bookend the trailer perfectly outline her arc next season- folks need to just chill.
I do agree that her interviews can be a bit vacuous sometimes, but she’s 20- and really enjoys playing with the media, give her a break.
Wolfish,
In the absence of heirs, the land reverts to the crown. In this case, the KITN. Jon can give the Dreadfort to Sansa if he wants to, or he can keep it for himself as a seat, give it to Tormund or any of his Stark siblings etc. I could see Jon giving it to her.
She is Lady Bolton by marriage, but not Lady Bolton in her own right the was Roose and Ramsay were. So no she can’t inherit Bolton lands, unless the crown gives them to her (and if she wants them she need only ask Jon).
Ginevra,
I disagree and find it truly baffling that there is a constant need to villify this character because apparently it’s easier than to integrate the more ambigous traits into the hero archetype.
I do not think that Sansa’s story is about entitlement, rather it’s a quest for wholeness and identity – from “Naive Southern Lady who thinks men will always take care of her” to “Responsible She-Wolf who wants to shape her life herself”, if you will – which are very much a part of the Hero achetype. Her story does totally match the stages of the Heroine’s Journey by Victoria Schmidt and does also work within the structure of Christian Vogler’s Hero’s Journey.
Now, I agree, her means may be different from those of her sibling’s, because she had other mentors. But isn’t that the whole point? The Starks who died were just not equipped for this world, so those who survived, needed to adapt to a point and integrate some not so noble traits. Arya did so too, why is she not considered an anti-villain? She baked people into pie and watched an old man eat it. For the greater good of course.
The difference to other characters is that Sansa does not slay the villainous Threshold Guardian (LF in this case), but colludes with him to save herself and to learn from him. Now this is the point where most people who like straightforward characters like Jon are put off IMO. But that does not make her an anti-villain in my book. It makes her a complicated heroine who has learned a few lessons from the villains, yes, but I think these lessons will be crucial for the survival of the Starks as will all the lessons that all the other Stark kids learnt.
I haven’t seen her do something “truly evil”. Melisandre on the other hand… Now there’s an anti-villain. Burning a child for the greater good. I have yet to see Sansa do something like that. And yet she still gets more hate.
If she ends up killing the Bastard Usurper, because she thinks it’s the rightful thing to do, then we can talk again about anti-villains. Although I might cheer anyway, cause it would be the first interesting thing that happened to Jon 😉
And those men wouldn’t have died, had she told Jon about the Vale army? Why would Jon have waited for an army he didn’t know would come or not? He wouldn’t have. Jon got his men slaughtered, because he fell into Ramsay’s trap, and he would have gotten the Vale army slaughtered as well. But in the end, we both do not know what would have happened. So to continue this villifying narrative of EvilSansa who would have sacrificed even her own family to get what she wants, as a fact, is just wrong. And also very very tedious.
Markus Stark,
I agree that Sansa’s actions are inconsistent, but I disagree that it is because of bad writing.
IMO her actions are inconsistent because she is conflicted. She says one thing but then continues to do the opposite. The key scene here is the one with Brienne after her initial lie to Jon. She tells Brienne that she trusts Jon, and Brienne rightfully counters that with “then why didn’t you tell him about LF”. We don’t get an answer from her, because she probably doesn’t have an answer. I think it’s because subconsciously she doesn’t really trust Jon because of her past.
Remember she takes after Cat, who always hated Jon and didn’t trust him. And the first time she hears about Jon again in the show comes from Ramsay who says “He is LC now. Yes, he’s been doing really for himself”. What the hell, the family has been massacred and this guy, the bastard, has been doing really well for himself? WTF!
She has also been tutored mostly by LF, a scheming guy who keeps everything close to his chest. Sansa acts the same way, which is annoying. She of course shouldn’t trust him, but she still allows the things that he says get to her and be manipulated by him. Which started in season 1! And don’t forget, he took her out of KL and saved her from Lysa.
So should we really be that surprised by her actions? It’s all really annoying of course, we want nothing more for the Starks to be together and be happy. But with all that has happened, that is not going to be easy.
Vally,
Fully agree with you!
Dee Stark,
Dee, I know you’ve not read the leaks and I will spoil nothing for you however wanted to give you some context when the original leaks came out they were just a broad outline of the season, no individual character arcs or detailed scenes. The original leaker then answered a few questions on Reddit before disappearing. Since then there have been more leaks (or much more dubious quality) but could easily just be made up.
So to answer your question, those of us who read the leaks (I did last year but trying to stay away now for several weeks) know some of the major plot points but do not know what’s happening with all the characters and are missing a lot of details.
THIS. Everyone pls calm down. Her story is ambiguous. There are supposed to be fans of this show that like the fact that its ambiguous, that you don’t know character motivations & that’s part of why they like/watch the show. Then, when presented with an ambiguous character (FEMALE), they throw their toys out of the pram. I’m revelling in the ambiguity! Possibly because i’ve watched whats happened to her since day one of the show…. If you can’t handle ambiguity in a character, wtf are you watching this show for…?
Vincent Stark,
Good thing we have someone here of your intelligence to help us.
Mark Milburn,
It’s really really not because of that.She is just annoying lol.There is no ambiguity from my part.I literally know what is going to happen.What she says still doesn’t make sense though.
Mark Milburn,
Can handle ambiguity, love a mystery, like being in the dark about some things- makes it more interesting, and Reserve the right to like/dislike any character I want.
As in words of Mance Rayder “We do not kneel”.
Vally,
The Wolves of Winter,
I think both of your comments are on point.
Vally,
Well put.
Vally,
Some people just think she’s a biatch, or is growing into one. It’s not that complicated lol. She’s not a real person and we shouldn’t have to justify anything other than perhaps for sake of conversation give a few examples of why we find her to be that way. And people need to chill with the righteous indignation. Ya’ll overthink sometimes, and I understand because I do that too, just in different areas of life, but folks is gonna have different opinions and they are just as valid. Something chickens…..(I so wanted to add some Hound humor at the end of this so it doesn’t come off bitchy but I don’t have the wit to put it together proper, cause I suck at attempts at humor tbh.)
Women who are descendants of that family tree can inherit when no men are left to inherit, yes. But I do not recall a single time in Westeros where a woman automatically inherited power by marriage after the extinction of the family line. (Titles, yes, they get those immediately upon marriage, but no independent power.) Once a family is extinct, the sovereign might choose to bequeath the land and title to the wife, I am sure, but the choice would be up to the sovereign.
“The last person in the line of succession is Karin Vogel from Germany, who is approximately 5,754th in line to the throne.” Not Prince Phillip but some distant relative is the last person in the line of succession to the British throne. –http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/insight/5-curious-things-about-the-line-of-succession-to-the-british-throne-13287
Ginevra,
So essentially, she will become evil, betray her family, and then regret it after?
ugh
GW,
Not in the show.
Jon Snowed,
Aww thanks for clarifying 🙂
OT but I have a question about one aspect of this season is whose side are you going to choose between Dany and Cercei/Jamie if she goes in burning her enemies (but including innocents) with the dragons. Are you going to look at her as being not much better than Cercei? Are you going to worry about Jamie, a character I know many have hopes for. They both want the power for different reasons. Dany because she believes it’s simply her birthright and Cercei because she probably feels she’s suffered enough that it’s her due, a seer in her youth told her the prophecy, and the seat is now vacant with her son’s unfortunate death so why not. Something on Reddit prompted a looking at things from a different point of view and I’m curious to explore that.
Ginevra,
“Women who are descendants of that family tree can inherit when no men are left to inherit, yes. But I do not recall a single time in Westeros where a woman automatically inherited power by marriage after the extinction of the family line.”
Cersei. One may infer that her claim to the throne was based on her being the childless widow of the last Baratheon. It was surely a sheer power grab on her part, but as the local nobility was annihilated at the Sept (most likely part of her intention all along), there’s nobody around to dispute it. In essence, she’s on the IT thanks to a fait accompli backed up by a (flimsy) excuse.
I actually agree with most of what is quoted above. If this were the real world, Arya’s crimes and acts are far worse and far, far, far more punishable by law than Sansa’s.
However, in literature, characters are not judged by their acts but by who they are acting against. Robin Hood was a thief but a hero because he only stole from those who were evil and gave to those who were good.
Sansa hasn’t done anything yet to solidify herself as the villain. My point is that the groundwork has all been laid and that she very much seems to be on that path. Killing Jon or even attempting to kill Jon, the story’s hero, would solidify her as villainous. Thwarting the hero’s path is enough to make her a villain.
–https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/villain
elybe,
Do we know that Jon took the bedroom, because if there was a scene of KitN relaxing in bed, I missed it😚
Stark Raven' Rad,
Cersei had zero claim. She stole the throne, just like Robert did in Robert’s Rebellion.
Dee Stark,
That’s my opinion, Dee. And I’m not the only one presenting that theory at the Con. And if you Google “Sansa villain,” you’ll find many others who think the same. But that doesn’t guarantee we are right, of course. I may be the only one thinking these anti-villains will redeem themselves. But I believe that George really does love Sansa and wants us to love her, too.
ygritte,
Well I don’t think Dany will burn innocent people meaning civilians.Honestly I liked/am entertained by Dany,Cersei and Jaime in varying degrees so I have no dog in that fight.Just there for the spectacle.See it from both their perspectives.
After Tommen died, Cersei gave zero f***s about any “line of succession”. She was there, she could take power for herself (because she killed everyone who would have stopped her and she had the Mountain) and so she took it. It is after all what she has always wanted.
I’m having a hard time understanding how Jaime can manage to convince himself that her “rule” is in any way legitimate and should be protected (which he seems to be doing given trailer shots). Probably why he looks so pissed off in every single shot…
Ginevra,
I’m not ughing you, because I kind of agree, i’m ughing any more bad things happening to my Starks prior to the great war.
And what do you mean presenting at the Con?
Jon could have sent scouts to confirm whether the Vale army was arriving or not.
It’s hardly a given that Jon would have got the Vale army killed. Because had he known about the existence of this well armed, well trained, well rested army, his strategy itself might have been different. IDK, maybe time the start of the battle to the arrival of the Vale army. He could have used his army to draw out Ramsay and the Vale army would attack from the rear or something like that. The point is, it is hard to say what would have happened. But the availability of this whole other army was a huge deal, which Sansa chose to conceal. As such, it is hard to say who got more people killed, Jon or Sansa. Neither of them is free of blame.
I agree Sansa is not evil, what she did, she did to ensure her own survival. Still, it cannot be denied that she was willing to sacrifice Jon for this purpose. She knew he was going in to a battle badly outnumbered, she could have given him the best chance of survival by telling him about the Vale army. By choosing not to, she increased his chances of death, she had no way of knowing that he would have survived till she came in with the Vale army.
Yes. Like mine. That I voiced against what I felt was the majority here. 🙂
I think that the villifying of the character is mostly unjustified and I replied to someone who thought about applying the concept of “anti-villain” to the character. IMO, it is possible to integrate the “villanous” aspects in the concept of a heroine’s journey because they are not constitutive of the character. So… you see, I’m not talking about a real person here, but about a character in a show. And you’re free to offer a rebuttal if you like.
What I really don’t appreciate is you calling people righteously indignant with the intent to belittle them.
ygritte,
I mean, I’ve heard critiques like this of Dany for ages… and to me as usual I think they are grasping at straws for any way to make her into a villain. Mostly people like to talk about how Dany will be determined to punish Ned Stark’s children (why?!) so we should oppose her. But I digress.
So anyway. It’s a war. Soldiers will die, and civilians will suffer. Even if Dany doesn’t target them directly (which I seriously doubt she will – what would be her purpose in that?) people will die as collateral damage, but even moreso of starvation and disease. I have a hard time believing however that Cersei as Queen of Westeros would otherwise be heralding a new age of peace. As for why Dany’s invading Westeros, her empathy for oppressed persons is clearly what drives most of her decision making. I believe that the show and books have made it clear that Dany is conquering Westeros because she believes that under her rule people will in the long run be better off. And when she gets to Westeros and hears about the WW then she’s going to be driven primarily by a wish to save the people of Westeros – first by uniting them.
Cersei meanwhile has absolutely no care for anyone other than herself (at least now). She doesn’t care about the rights of common people, she cares about power for its own sake. She killed everyone in the sept regardless of whether they had anything to do with her own suffering. A lot of those people – the entire court of King’s Landing were innocent – they came because they were expected to be there and were no threat to Cersei whatsoever.
The only slightly consideration I could give is sort of an extreme nativism – Cersei was born in Westeros and has only Westerosi forces fighting for her, whereas Dany has lived most of her life abroad and has a partly foreign army. So if you’re more scared of foreign “barbarians” than the ones born and raised in Westeros, maybe you’d rather the devil you know. If Cersei is clever she will try to use this as a propaganda tool. Then again Cersei has basically never made an attempt to get the common people on her side so I could see her not bothering.
As for Jaime despite the trailer I think he will switch sides – eventually.
Ginevra,
Sadly, I have to leave now for a few hours. I hope I can reply later today more elaborately.
Just in short. I understand now better what you are saying. Personally, I, as a book reader, never doubted Sansa’s path to become a “She-Wolf” if you will. The loss of Lady, for me, was just a means to make it even harder for her to become whole again and for the readers to make everyone doubt her allegiances and motivations in the future. Briefly, to make her an ambigous character within the Holy Stark family.
For a long time, I thought of Dany in this way. She is the bringer of enlightenment, if you will, but the ferocity and the determination with which she wants to implant her own beliefs in a culture that she does not know, tainted those “good” aspects quite a bit. For me, she oscillates between saviour and destroyer, but I think she will do the right thing in the end.
Sansa will definitely have arguments with Jon, because they grew up in different worlds and they have different perspectives on the world, but I don’t think it would be satisfying for her to betray Jon because it would be to her own detriment, and I think she wants to live despite all she went through. Briefly, I think she knows the pack is important, but arguments will be had about how to best protect the pack.
I assume that the promos want to make us doubt that Sansa understood that lesson. And I say, they succeeded pretty well, judging by most of the reactions I found on youtube. Many people think, Jon is the lone wolf that will be killed (by her?).
Well, I prefer elybe’s interpretation, that Cersei is the lone wolf and the pack are the reasonable people of Westeros that will stand together during the Long Night.
QueenOfThrones,
Guess I got a little wrapped up in the Reddit tinfoil twisty thought processes today. I read snippets of some of the book excerpts and GRRM quotes posted by the ASOIAF readers and assume their ideas would have more merit than the information I have about the GOT players as simply a watcher of the show.
Ginevra,
Your analysis of Sansa as an “anti-villain” was really well-done. Thank you. Posted comments are always more interesting (and more persuasive) when they’re backed up by verbatim quotes of scriptrd dialogue or showrunners’ episode commentaries.
I’m just a little hazy on a couple of things:
1. What exactly is an “anti-villain” and how does he or she differ from a straight-up villain?
2. Why is my boy the Night King classified as a “villain”? As far as I can tell, he doesn’t feel that he’s been called to greatness, or shown an unearned sense of entitlement. Yes, he’s kind of a showboat and drama queen (eg last few seconds of “Hardhome”), but I attribute that to use of intimidation as psychological warfare.
3. To me, Ramsay and WeaselFinger are just evil and cruel, with no mitigating qualities and no excuse. I don’t know if their sense of entitlement comes from a belief that they’re pre-ordained for greatness, as opposed to just being sick f*cks who use, abuse, and discard people like playthings.
I’m not so sure Show!Cersei fits the definition of villain: she sure has the sense of entitlement going on, but her scenes with Robert and Ned in S1 portrayed her as the product of a dismissive and hateful father who sold her off like livestock; and an emotionally and physically abusive husband obsessed with a long-dead girl.
4. Back to Sansa…. You’ve done a great job laying out how Sansa’s belief (or self-delusion) that she’s been “called to greatness” by her family name (rather than on merit) has led to the sense of entitlement she’s been exhibiting. It also explains how LF keeps worming his way back into her head; he appeals directly to that “you’re a trueborn daughter of N + C Stark born in WF” vs. “bastard boy born in south” prejudice. Of course, the problem (for her) is that the rest of the world doesn’t automatically lower the velvet rope for her just because of her family name.
***
[to be cont. Almost done. I promise.]
Vincent Stark,
Thank you. Even though this story line can be annoying, I am actually looking forward to it and seeing how it plays out. Probably one of the few.
Carole H,
This needs to be rectified in the premiere.
ygritte,
You are expressly forbidden from disliking this one until further notice. There are only two discussions to be had in a Sansa thread: The one that focuses on the actions of the character and the comments made by the actress, and the one that focuses on the posters who happen to be critical of either of those things. Once the Sansa cavalry arrives, prepare for endless slaps on the wrist and lectures condescendingly explaining your own opinions to you. Well, it seems we’re already there, but you know what I mean.
OT:
Couldn’t resist this, hes so hot!!! <3
http://www.gettyimages.ca/license/800113424
Carole H,
Hahahaha! with nothing but a fur blankie hahaha
Dee Stark,
I know!!Also Richard and Alfie were also there.I hope we get some pictures.
Jenny,
awwwww richard
It also is improbable that the will amounts to anything in the books. If it was going to be important, then GRRM should have had it come up again in Crows/Dragons. This is sort of Chekhov’s Dictum in reverse: if something is going to be important late in a tale, then a big deal should be made of it early. Put another way, someone reading through the books once should know exactly where the fired gun came from when it appears: and even if you read the books straight through, this detail would be forgotten two books later.
Again, there will be some Matthew Crowley analog who is heir to the Boltons because of intermarriage, just as Robert was heir to the Targaryens and just as Jaime apparently is heir to the Baratheons. However, given that these things are not going to be relevant to the plot, do not expect to see them addressed on the show. (They might get passing notice in the books, but books provide a lot of extraneous details like this in the same way that film & TV provide a lot of extraneous details in costumes and sets.)
ygritte,
Yeah fair enough. I tried looking for the thread in question and couldn’t find it. Certainly there are tons of Daenerys antifans among the book crowd and always have been and there is textual support that Dany harbors resentment against people who were responsible for her exile (like… duh?). But there’s also a lot of support for the idea that her primary motivation is and has always been protecting those who are powerless to protect themselves. Partly it seems like people just really want there to be some “twist” at the end and think iot’s just too “neat” if the major players unite.
A major problem I see with choosing to back Cersei over Dany is that even if Cersei wins… what’s next? Do we honestly think that Jon in the North is going to willingly ally with Cersei Lannister after everything that’s happened?! Hell to the no! So Cersei victory basically means doom for Westeros…
Wolfish,
I should add that there also could be some Bolton descended from the 2nd son of Roose’s grandfather, great-grandfather, etc. (That would be the actual Matthew Crowley analog.)
On the Cersei/Daenerys debate, I just finished re-watching season one so this was fresh in my mind:
In 105 Loras and Renly discuss the latter’s potential route to the Iron Throne. When Renly brings up the matter of Joffrey, Tommen and Stannis standing in the way (I guess they don’t regard Myrcella and Shireen as heirs) Loras asks where Robert was in the line of succession.
In 107 when Daenerys and Jorah are discussing whether her attempts to change Drogo’s mind about going to Westeros and fighting for the Iron Throne, she speaks of her right to it. Jorah tells her that Aegon the Conqueror didn’t take control of the other six kingdoms because they were his right – he did it because he could.
Cersei took the Iron Throne because she could – no, she didn’t have to fight a war like Robert or Aegon I, but she took it because it was there for the taking and she wanted it. Cersei herself tells Ned that not taking the Iron Throne for himself when King’s Landing fell was a mistake, and that when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die; there is no middle ground.
What history has shown is that the Iron Throne can and will be held by those strong enough to take it and hold it.
As we saw with Tyrion, it also turns out that Daenerys is willing to forgive her former enemies. Moreover, Daenerys has become increasingly aware that the version of history that her brother gave her is incomplete or flatout incorrect. One thing that she will learn is that most people genuinely believed that her brother abducted Lyanna Stark. That is going to change her perception of what the Starks did.
(Indeed, she might learn the “truth” of what happened around the same time that others learn that the Targaryen version of events was correct after all! 😀 )
Actually, he was heir to the Targaryens. Still, according to those rules, he comes after Viserys and Daenerys: and he pushed those two aside.
Dee Stark,
Oh don’t 😉it’s not decent for a woman of my age.
Carole H,
LOL
I knew that, but I did want to say that there may be some hope for you that I am wrong because I am often wrong.
I’m a hop, skip, and a jump from Nashville, and so I’m presenting with a couple of friends at Con of Thrones. http://6hxjb4.attendify.io/#9KAcBJRYjNEVHIh12X
It’s interesting to think about how concerned Robert was with Daenerys, dragons and Dothraki. Ned continued to tell him that she and her baby dragons across the sea weren’t a threat and not to worry. Since he wasn’t able to eliminate her and/or was sidetracked enough then, she will now become his worst nightmare by arriving in Westeros. However, instead of HIS nightmare it ends up being Cersei’s… It’s like payback from the grave for Robert. Had he succeeded in having Daenerys killed then, Cersei would now have little opposition. Fun to see it play out with that in mind.
Ginevra,
Oh that’s awesome 🙂
Ginevra,
(Cont. from prior reply at 9:38 am)
#5. I had thought that a lot of the anti-Sansa fan sentiment, particularly about her concealments and lies, was an unintended consequence of the decision to graft the Jeyne Poole-Bolton story line onto Sansa’s. GRRM’s world consisted of lots of moving parts (eg different characters in different places). I assume the idea was to pluck Book!Sansa from the Vale and prematurely relocate her north for Show!Sansa’s borrowed Bolton-Jeyne-Theon plot, and then later have Show!Sansa “meet up” again with her book counterpart at the same coordinates later on.
When the showrunners conceived the Sansa-Jeyne merger, it may have looked good on paper, with just a few logical cracks to pave over ( a task that must’ve proved more challenging than anticipated (resulting in fan-perplexing plot detours like LF’s preposterous Bolton marriage plan, and Sansa somehow agreeing to it.)
Also, in translating the merger into scripts, geographical and chronological Book! vs. Show! incongruities essentially required the writers to come up with reasons why Show!Jon, like his books counterpart, wouldn’t be aware of possible assistance from the Vale. I’m guessing that in the books Sansa + KotV will come north just in time to intervene in the BoB and save the day; then she’d rightfully be pissed off when she’s passed over and “disrespected.”
#6. Frankly, your “anti-villain” explanation works better. That way, Sansa doesn’t come off as a self-centered, petulant nitwit making dumb decisions. Instead, her “call to greatness” (amplified by LF) and sense of entitlement mean that in her mind, she’s being unfairly denied titles, credit, deference and respect.
(….There was a point to all of this…
Oh yeah…)
I’m still unclear on what an “anti-villain” is. Or an “anti-hero” for that matter (a dirtbag who does good deeds?). Anyway….
#7. If, as you’ve convincingly illustrated, Sansa is an “anti-villain” and her actions and behavior proceed from her belief that she’s called to greatness and a sense of automatic “entitlement” without having to earn it…
Doesn’t that necessarily mean that
other characters on the show, and the anti-Sansa contingency of the fandom, would be justified in vilifying her and condemning her actions?
Doesn’t it also mean that those who seek to defend Sansa as a brilliant tactician, or rationalize her lies and concealments as understandable “trust issues” of a survivor of abuse, are misguided?
Is Sophie T deliberately channeling Anti-Villain Sansa in interviews? After all, every time she starts in with the “Sansa deserves credit”; “Sansa should he QitN”; “Sansa knows more” stick, the pitchforks come out.
P.S. How does the journey of a classic “Anti-Villain” usually end?
Clob,
The dragons hadn’t been born yet, so Ned only dismissed the option of Dany invading with a Dothraki army. Still, I like the rest of your points.
Clob,
It was cersei who brushed aside the threat of Dany and her dragons by saying how they are just small baby dragons and she a little girl ..
Remember the small council scene with Tywin ,Mace,Oberyn and Cersei from season 4 …
It will be nice to see cersei reaction when she finally meets the little girl and baby dragons..
Now Robert did worry about Drogo’s khalasar and ned said we can worry when they teach their horses how to swim ..Robert was worried about single unified army against him and dany now has not only drogo’s khalasar but entire dothraki united as single army ..
I can’t take waiting for Season 7 anymore…
Normally, I deal really well with waiting during GOT off season…
And I was fine until the second trailer came out.
Vincent Stark,
Disagree. I watched the scene many times and I don’t notice anything like that… and even ignoring that, what about the scene they shared on the walls of WF? Jon offered her the lord’s bedchamber and she refused it and made the same offer to him… I really suspect these interviews are meant to cause tension and that the real situation might not be something like that.
I remember interviews from last year which described how we would see Arya completely beaten next season… at the lowest so far. And yet, nothing like that happened. And there was an interview with the actor playing Trystane how he would be in trouble in KL as a hostage and yet, he got killed in first minutes. And a year before, there was interview with Sophie and she described how her and LF spend most of S5 traveling and yet, she came to WF in episode 3 and spent most of her time there. I don’t think these interviews can be taken literally.
Young Dragon,
Oh yeah, duh. Why did I include them? I was probably thinking of that tense conversation between Tywin and Joffrey in the throne room. Tywin told Joffrey that her dragons weren’t to be concerned about. Man, that was yet another fantastic Charles Dance scene!
Vally,
Thanks for an interesting analysis! I wasn’t acquainted with Victoria Schmidt’s “Heroine’s Journey” description. There’s a lot of food for thought in there.
Yes, I definitely don’t take her words literally. We’ll see what happens next season.
dragonbringer,
Yeah, as with my post just above I was getting later conversations mixed in there for some reason. Of course Robert never knew of dragons. One would think Tywin would consider the possibilities more than just casually brushing them off. Yes it’s been hundreds of years since there were dragons of significant size and strength, or any at all, but he didn’t concern himself at all.
Thank you! The traditional definition of the anti-hero is a hero with villainous attributes: one who kills or thwarts the good (or the innocent or the hero). I would say that George’s anti-heroes (Jaime, the Hound, and Theon) are those who first do villainous things (throwing Bran from the tower, killing the Butcher’s boy, killing the two village boys and betraying his foster family) and then go on to do heroic things (saving Brienne, saving Sansa, and saving Sansa).
And then the standard definition of the anti-villain is a villain with heroic attributes, who saves or helps the good (or the innocent or the hero). In George’s realm, I believe the anti-villain will first do heroic things or appear heroic by association or comparison, go on to do villainous things (killing or thwarting the good), and then ultimately be destined for redemption with one final and grand heroic act (saving or helping the good).
A villain, on the other hand, is one who thwarts our hero or targets the innocent and the good who never does anything heroic (saving the good or innocent or helping the hero).
The Night’s King, Ramsay, Littlefinger, and Cersei have all deliberately killed innocent people in pursuit of their own agendas. Their primary purposes seem to all be to thwart our heroes, which makes them all villains. I’m not saying villains need to be pre-ordained for greatness, so to speak, but that they often believe they are worthy of greatness and deserve to have others serving them, as opposed to the heroes who seek to serve others.
Vally,
Totally agree.
Even if she told Jon and he waited, Ramsey would still parade Rickon out, and Jon would still have done the honorable and in his mind the right thing and try to save Rickon.
I think when Shaggy’s head was thrown down Sansa thought Rickon was already dead. Rickon was going to die no matter what because Ramsey had him for use to bait Jon, the result would have been the same, whether he knew of the Vale army or not, because Ramsey had Rickon and Jon is Ned in this case and Sansa saw that.
Clob,
Yes its funny that only one who was actually concerned about dany and dragons was joffery ..
That scene is awesome and Charles dance is again amazing
You don’t think what we saw was Arya at her lowest? She was living in the street, blind and begging for money and each day the waif would come by and beat her ass with a stick for no reason. She earned her way back into the HoBaW to get her ass beat some more. Just when things are looking up they turn on her because she chooses not to kill simply because someone paid money. As a result the only “safe place” she has left is gone and she’s nearly killed.
I’d say that simple description of her season was pretty close… without spoiling the events of her final scene…
There is no birthright, there is no crown. Robb was defeated, Winterfell was given to the Bolton’s. Any “right” would need to be obtained by a. conquering the Boltons, or b. the consent of the crown (either with wardenship or reinstating the title of lord).
Just as Westeros is not Dany’s birthright because her family was conquered, Winterfell is not Sansa’s birthright for the same reason (despite what they both seem to think).
Sansa has been nothing but a pawn who has moved two squares forward and thinks she should be crowned Queen.
I’m not a Sansa hater, nor do I fall in the Team Jon camp. But I prefer to call a spade a spade.
I truly believe that George and D&D love Sansa and want us to love her, too. But I also think they want to communicate that good and even wonderful people can do horrific things. I think that will be the point of Sansa and the other emerging anti-villains (and the anti-heroes, too, for that matter). I believe that we are supposed to love all of these characters but recognize that what they are about to do (because our anti-villains really have yet to step over to true villainy in either the books or the show) is completely wrong.
So I would say that those who seek to vilify Sansa completely are just as wrong as those who seek to make her perfect. She’s somewhere in between.
Mwahaha! I believe that Sophie just takes everything the directors and creators tell her that Sansa should be feeling as gospel for what Sophie should be feeling. “Sansa should be feeling that she deserves to be QitN,” they say, so Sophie takes that to mean, “Sansa clearly deserves to be QitN.” I’m not sure if she’s a method actress or simply naive and flighty. And yet I love her either way. She’s young. She’s saucy. She’s sassy. She and Maise have a great time raising some mild hell. I take very little of what she says seriously, although I do think some might actually reflect how Sansa should feel, which she may interpret as how Sophie should feel.
We don’t really have many classic anti-villain examples – or perhaps I’m just not knowledgeable enough to know them. Either way, I don’t think that George is following quite the classic definition and arc for the anti-villain. But because I do wholeheartedly believe GRRM wants us to love these characters, I feel reasonably sure they are destined for some sort of redemption – some sort of bittersweet redemption, if you know what I mean.
ramses,
But she is not the rightful Queen in the North. If we are going by rightful, then we can only go with Bran. They do suspect he is alive, correct?
Inga,
Sorry but I don’t think Sansa pushed Jon into the Northern’s crown. Lady Lyanna Mormont is the one who took the initiative and I highly suspect she was not going to do that with Sansa. I could be wrong but I don’t think Lyanna thought all that much of Sansa, whether that is fair or not. I seriously do not think that any of the Lords would have bent the knee to Sansa out of their own initiative or want. They may have supported her role as Lady of Winterfell because she was in the end Ned’s daughter but Northerners follow strength and Sansa does not yet evoked strength. I do think she was highly disappointed not to be taken into account, I would imagine she would be more disappointed in the books if she ever learns Robb passed her over in favor of Jon.
ygritte,
I am Sooooo on the fence about Danny, her intentions before getting to Westeros for the most part seem well intention, but now it’s about a perceived birth right. The big houses are her enemies without her knowing the full stories.
I’m waiting on how she handles Cersei and the news of what truly going on.
So on the fence.
ygritte,
Cersei and Jaime duh. They’re a hot mess and quality entertainment. <3
Hey, I’m going to add my only Sansa specific post to this thread… 🙂
In relation to what you wrote I thought again about what D&D said during that panel at SXSW. That being how they don’t know why there is so much hate for Sansa. They probably do actually know why there’s some of it, but what I got out of it is that they are definitely aware of a large segment of book & show fans that don’t like the character.
I can’t say whether or not they want people to like her or if they care one way or the other, but I’d say they’re not writing her in a manner that would lead many people to like her more. I’d have to say that everything they had her do after her reunion with Jon probably has had the opposite effect. It seems apparent that Sophie isn’t helping either. 😛
I’m still in the neutral zone as it concerns the character though. 😉
GoT seasons 1-6 marathon coming to HBO this weekend
I wonder if there will be a cold opening for season 7 episode 1? They tend to do it with season premieres more often than not.
Season 1 episode 1
Season 3 episode 1
Season 4 episode 1
Season 5 episode 1
Jenny,
There are pictures of Richard, Kit, Rose, Emilia and Alfie on instagram. although I could not find any photo with the 5 of them together.
H.Stark,
Yeah I know.I meant together.
I hope so. I’d think there are several possible scenes that would make a good cold open. We can all probably think of them. 🙂
Clob,
So much of the confusion lies in the fact that we are used to seeing characters as black and white and so many of us are trying to paint Sansa as either black or white when really she and the other anti-villains are fifty shades of gray.
I’m so sick of reading Turner talk about what Sansa thinks she’s owed or that she deserves to be Queen! Sansa has done exactly one thing right in the entire series: bring in the Knights of the Vale…and she even did that wrong by keeping it a secret to the very last second. What exactly has she earned?
OT: HBO just posted a new video about Ramin Djawadi. 🙂
Ginevra,
If this were the real world, Arya’s crimes and acts are far worse and far, far, far more punishable by law than Sansa’s. However, in literature, characters are not judged by their acts but by who they are acting against. Robin Hood was a thief but a hero because he only stole from those who were evil and gave to those who were good.
Agreed. But in our real world most countries have an extensive legal system and law enforcement. They function well if imperfectly. Even in Westeros, there briefly was a basic system, but it depended on nobles to enforce it, as it did in mediaeval England. When the smallfolk who’d lost families and property to Ser Gregor’s raiders appealed to Ned as Hand, he said, “I cannot bring back your dead, but I can bring you justice“. Ned’s sent Beric Dondarrion to deal with Gregor and summon Tywin to answer for Gregor’s crimes. Even now, war-torn regions–like Westeros since season 1–tend to be lawless. Arya is very much Ned’s daughter. When she personally sees crimes she tries to bring justice on behalf of the innocent and victimised. Ned might not approve of her methods sometimes, but he would approve of her motivation.
Sansa hasn’t done anything yet to solidify herself as the villain. My point is that the groundwork has all been laid and that she very much seems to be on that path. Killing Jon or even attempting to kill Jon, the story’s hero, would solidify her as villainous. Thwarting the hero’s path is enough to make her a villain.
Again, agreed. I doubt she will ultimately be a villain because she’s a true-born child of Ned Stark. She was aloof from the Pack as a girl. She also had/has a lot of bad qualities–selfishness, snobbishness, mendacity. None of that makes her a villain. But that sense of entitlement since S1E1 when she was betrothed to the prince has persisted. Even when Joffrey and Cersei showed their true, evil colors and had Lady killed, it persisted. Throughout her time in Kings Landing, where she was a pawn but everyone told her she was “the key to the North” it persisted. And, under Littlefinger’s tutelage, which he based on her being that key (and being Catelyn 2.0), it’s grown and become much more enabled. My biggest beef with her ethics is that she’s knows LF committed at least three murders–Joffrey, Ser Dontos, and Lysa–and is dangerous. In the books, it’s implied he also murdered Marillion and may be slowly murdering Robyn, which she’s somewhat complicit in. Many of LF’s lessons are also morally ambiguous at best. None of this has phased her. That she’s unwittingly attached herself to the very man who indirectly killed Ned and induced many other crimes is ironic and, when revealed, will bring her great anguish. I won’t even touch on her LF-influenced behaviour in Season 6. I don’t think she’ll ever be a heroine, but a villain, no. Maybe she’s the ultimate GREY character.
This is an overly simplistic understanding of inheritance / right of conquest / etc.
Claim or birthright is always in the eye of the beholder. As long as there is someone out there who believes that someone with Stark (or Targaryen) blood SHOULD rule, then the deposed family has a claim. Based on what you are saying here, Hot Pie has as much right to the IT as Daenerys, which if said as much to anyone in Westeros they would give you some heavy side eye. After all, there’ sa good reason that Robert was concerned about Dany – and it wasn’t just because of the Khalasaar – it was because she was apparently carrying a (potentially male) Targaryen child in her womb. Any child with the Targaryen name / blood was a threat to Robert’s legitimacy.
If things were so easily settled (just conqering and reconquering) you wouldn’t have half of the succession wars that we see.
Nope, the fact is that Sansa and Dany’s blood (and Jon’s too!) is important – because people think it’s important. And that’s what the legitimacy of rule is based on ultimately.
Wolfish,
It’s always great to get some insight into Ramin’s process. The man is a true genius. Watching that video, I was reminded of just how amazing it was to see him perform live at the Game of Thrones concert tour earlier this year. He was a rock star. Full standing ovation, supremely well earned.
I can’t wait to hear what he has in store for us in Season 7!
Jared,
My daughter, one of her best friends and I went to the Portland concert (the last one!), and met one of the WotW and her husband before the show. It was amazing; my daughter had recently moved to Portland, and I’m so glad I took a long weekend off to visit her and share the experience. Djawadi is incredible, and he struck me as being truly humble and honored to be working with the musicians with whom he collaborated for the concerts.
Well, I just hope the writers were made aware of the overwhelming viewer opinion at the end of last season, insofar as who deserves to rule the north (Jon!) and wrote season 7 accordingly.
Oh boy, would I just LOVE IT if Lyanna Mormont scolded Sansa publicly for sending her fighting men to soften up the Bolton forces (aka to the slaughter).
I just saw this posted on Reddit. Apparently, Sky Germany has some of the promo pics on their site with the original file names, which shows which episodes those pics belong to. This was originally pointed out by Dragon’s Daughter on Twitter.
https://i.imgur.com/vGPEXEI.jpg
“She’s very strong and steely this season. She’s in it for herself. Whether that means going a bit dark… you’ll have to see.”
At least she didn’t use “fierce” or “badass” as those words have become overused to an extreme lately.
Wolfish,
Wow, it’s been a year to the date since I first heard “Light of the Seven” and I still get verklempt just about every time I hear it.
ghost of winterfell,
Thanks for the link. Very cool!
Clob,
Agreed. It’s a beautiful piece of music. I’m not sure if I like the earlier part with the piano better or when things pick up a bit with the violins. I like it all.
Clob and
Mr Derp,
Agreed and agreed. When watching the series again with Saner Half (his first viewing), I watched the beginning of the last episode several times just to hear Light of the Seven. It’s an astonishingly beautiful, evocative piece of music, and hearing it performed live (with Djawadi playing the piano!) was incredible.
If Hot Pie raised up an army with the goal of taking the throne, he would have exactly the same claim as Dany (and Joffrey and Tommen and Cersei). Which is to say, none at all.
Dany’s birthright was taken from her when Aerys was killed and Robert named king. At the end of the day, she has to do exactly what Robert did: conquer. With that, she is still never getting her “birthright” back. She would be a ruler in her own right and not one of hereditary succession, just as she was in Yunkai, Astapor and Meereen.
People’s opinions on the matter, in addition to the power they wield, may influence the outcome of who actually rises to the throne but that does not change whether they were entitled to it to begin with.
Clob,
Well, it was surely way less “dramatic” than described in that interview. And again, maybe it’s also because there’s a bit of a wall between me and Arya. I somehow cannot delve deep into her character and become invested in her….
I’ll see what happens next season. I know that I really admire Sansa’s internal strength and these interviews don’t realy match what I’ve seen in previous season…
Lord Parramandas,
Nice to see you still hanging around LP. I thought you were going to disappear from WOTW for a bit. Clearly, my Tyrion and Missandei jokes were the reason why you stayed 🙂
Danny,
I don’t know if Jon and Sansa suspect Bran is alive. The last known sighting of Bran was by Sam at which point Bran was still en route north of the wall.
While all that is true, the perspective and frame of mind is probably a bit different for someone like Daenerys. It wasn’t just a couple of generations after all. House Targaryen ruled consecutively for ~280 years so there’s three centuries of her ancestors on the throne before Robert ‘stole’ it. So while it’s no longer accurate to say that the iron throne belongs to her by right, it is understandable that she’d look at that way. It’s more like a statement of past tense present or something. It was mine – it was stolen – I’m going to steal it back.
It’s really become impossible to escape the conclusion that Sophie Turner would really rather play a much different – darker – character than the one she’s been cast as.
And it’s hard to say Jon Snow hasn’t been respectful of Sansa, right up through Episode 10. He was even willing to prepare the Lord’s Chamber for *her* and defer to her superior status as a true Stark (even after her refusal to inform him of the Knights of the Vale). And yet this is not enough?
Besides her name, what has Sansa done to warrant leadership of the North over John? John has done far more, in the NW and beyond – perhaps Sansa has not had the same opportunities as Jon, but does it matter? And it’s not because she’s a woman – Lyanna Mormont has done far more as well, at half her age.
Really, I’ve run out of reasons to continue heeding any interviews Turner gives on GOT at this point.
Mr Derp,
It’s because I need to keep my hype up for the show… I need some sort of “build-up”. Although I’m more dealing with the problem how to finish my rewatch in time. I have 15 episodes left to watch in 20 days and I still haven’t finished my LOST rewatch (3 episodes left).
Alexis,
“Dany’s birthright was taken from her when Aerys was killed and Robert named king. At the end of the day, she has to do exactly what Robert did: conquer. With that, she is still never getting her “birthright” back.”
Simply having your dynasty being deposed doesn’t eliminate your legitimacy. Certainly not if plenty of people in said realm still recognize that legitimacy.
The Stuarts were legally removed as England and Scotland’s ruling house when Cromwell and the Long Parliament proclaimed the Commonwealth. Yet a dozen years later, the legitimacy of Charles II’s claim to the throne ended up carrying the day – without a battle. Likewise, despite the Revolution’s dethronement of the Bourbon monarchy of France in 1792, and Bonaparte’s dethronement of the Bourbon monarchy of Spain in 1808, both were restored in 1814-15.
And they had as much birthright to their thrones as Dany has to hers, despite also having been in exile for the better part of a generation. Which is to say: Much more than Hot Pie has. She would not be in the position to enforce the birthright by conquest in the first place without that claim (which in turn is tied to the supernatural gifts that come with the Targaryan birthright).
Jenny,
The absolute last thing I need is a repeat of that photoshoot, good god, it still hurts my eyes.
Athelstane,
Except no one recognizes that legacy but Dany. face it… everyone who supports her uses her for their own gain – except Jorah, but that’s just cause he wants to bone her. Remember that one time everyone was all ‘gosh if only we could have a dragon queen!!’
that happened never. Except Daenerys has no birthright but a great chunk of power hunger.
Oops. I may have deliberately misread that as, “Djawadi’s an astonishingly beautiful, evocative piece of ….” Bad. So bad. But to me he is more attractive than Nikolaj and far, far more than Kit. And his music is epic.
Kimber,
Her brother was dumbass.
Ginevra:
LMAOOO!!! So true. And he’s just as hot irl. (I wish we’d had the opportunity to speak with him at the concert, but that wasn’t really the right place for them to have set something like that up.) He wouldn’t look out of place on the show at all. 😉
Athelstane,
I just wanted to tell you, fantastic comments. Thank you!
Wolfish,
I have some of the sheet music for Light of the Seven, the theme in the last episode of last season and watched the trailer for Djawadi’s concert. He made a slight error in the beginning which was probably imperceptible to most, but it was kind of a cute moment that the composer would hit a wrong note. Made me feel better since I can barely stumble through the first few pages!
I think its possible Sansa won’t survive, although I couldn’t possibly imagine how. But I think she is so wounded spiritually by the horrific things she endured, that at the very least, happy marriage and family are not options (Not that it’s the only option blah blah). But once the drama is done, where will she fit?
Alexis,
If you know the history of the Baratheon’s or watched the special features in S1 narrated by Robert Baratheon. The Baratheon’s had Targaryen blood in their line and Robert says it’s this blood that helped him and legitimized his claim to the throne, so that makes Dany’s claim 100% valid considering Cersei does not have that same Targaryen blood.
There were quite a few Targaryen/Baratheon marriages since the time when Orys Baratheon founded their house but the most recent one was when Aegon V arranged the wedding of his daughter Princess Rhaelle, to Lyonel’s son Ormund Baratheon. This is the most important Targaryen-Baratheon wedding, because Ormund’s grandsons are Robert, Stannis, and Renly.
I don’t see her surviving the end game at all. It always saddens me that the amount of misogynistic crap thrown at her character on you-tube and also her as well. C’mon people, get real… If you were held captive in Kings Landing, have Joffrey continually use his bodyguards to police you, demean you in front of crowds of hecklers that hate your guts. Strip you of your clothing, have men try and rape you, be held as a plaything for a juvenile king & be played with emotionally by Lannisters AND Tyrells for their own purposes & be played all the time by a MASTERPLAYER that started this whole shit-fest in the first place….? I’ve not even started on what Ramsey did to her…DO THE MATH. Oh no, people still wont accept all this, so lets add: Lysa trying to throttle her out of the Moon Door, Ramsey’s farcical marriage & VILE wedding night. The continual abuse (off screen) she endures by him. Witnessed aftermath of flayed victims that would help her, leaping off battlements (GO ON YOU TRY!), because there is no other escape route. Chased by man eating hounds & soldiers. I think, actually, I know, I would NEVER last as far as her character has. Shes fucked up. As any of us would be. Not all people are fighters in the fist-i-cuff sense. She’s a bloody survivor that’s been played like a harp from hell. I much prefer a multi layered character than the usual Jon/Dany snore fest.
Isabelle_M,
I feel this fits for both Sansa & Arya…. Then I think… WHY?
Bbirgitt,
Yes something like that never happened ..here the common people and novices at citadel conversations
lol at Sophie… she should complain for Lyanna Mormont or all the Northem Lords but not with Jon, beside LF warned her didn´t he?
The other thing to keep in mind is that the deposed Stuarts, Bourbons, etc., all genuinely believed that they were morally obligated to retake the throne. Moreover, their opponents all understood that the Stuarts, Bourbons, etc., felt morally obligated to retake their thrones. The modern concept that these people were “self-entitled” would have struck them a bizarre idea: it is, after all, completely anachronistic. And the idea that having been forcibly removed somehow meant that they no longer “deserved” the throne would have struck them in the same way that one of us would feel if a kidnapper told us “Well, I stole your kid, so now you have no right to the kid.” A birthright is a birthright, not a (modern sense) entitlement. (Of course, it bears keeping in mind the etymology of “entitled”!)
Youtube, sure. But here? That kind of smacks of trying to reconcile the cognitive dissonance of liking a polarizing character by writing off all her critics as misogynists. I’m both female and a feminist, and I actually never thought the Sansa of seasons 1 – 4 was weak at all. The Sansa of season 6 gives me indigestion for a lot of reasons, but being female sure ain’t one of them. And I’m not really sure what that laundry list of her traumas is supposed to prove, since she’s hardly alone in having a fucked up existence since the war began, and I’ve yet to see anyone in this thread dismiss what she’s been through.
I didn’t realize being treated like crap granted you more layers, since I continue to find her blander than toast, but I get that this is subjective. I don’t know, Sansa’s kind of the sorbet of the Game of Thrones dessert menu for me, but I do know people in real life who swear they prefer it to triple chocolate cakes and banana splits. It does occur to me that you’re probably going to be spending 90% of Season 7 asleep, though.
dragonbringer,
I suspect this one’s a lost cause.
Mark Milburn,
Speaking about multi layered characters …the character development sansa is taking six seasons to achive dany did it in a single season..
elybe,
Yeah I guess you are right .
Interesting you bring this up. The Lannister appear to be one of only a few families in Westeros with no Targaryen blood. The Dornish Snakes and Gendry all have more of the Dragon than Cersei. As do Brienne and her father, ironically enough (apparently Selwyn Tarths grandmother was Targaryen or something)…
Actually Joffrey and Tommen had very good claims. Officially they are Roberts sons. And Tommen maintained power until his death for that reason – people believed in the legitimacy of that claim. That’s really all it takes. Power resides where men believe it resides. No one believed in Stannis’ legitimacy so his claim is now defunct.
What I think You’re missing here is this: No one is literally entitled to anything. Power is an illusion – it is based on many things, one of which is the concept of blood right. In fact, many other things are also important. Who is charismatic. Who is generous. Who is rich. Who is right with the Gods.
Ultimately by virtue of being The last kings daughter, Dany has a massive head start in her rule being recognized as legitimate (as do Sansa and Jon in the North for being “Ned’s”). It doesn’t guarantee people will recognize and support their claims but it makes it a hell of a lot more likely than Cersei (or hot pie).
QueenofThrones,
Don’t recall if you’re one that read any leaks, if not please disregard.
Being spoiled for how this season will go I can pretty much rule out one nice theory I had thought of last year,
dreamy and just King Jon (who can do no wrong in my eyes, that is until he becomes a White walker, which isnt a spoiler but I just know it’s gonna happen 🙂
Grail King,
Yeah, I think she’s basically a good person but definitely has a potential for ruthlessness. They’ve had her portray this aloof, hard to read exterior and done a couple of questionable things that could signal a turn more towards that. Cercei is just a bad person, which I’d hoped had a potential for goodness (I guess just because that would break up the monotony lol.)
OT but one thing I believe could happen this season is Bran will tell Sansa his TOJ vision about Jon’s not really being their father’s child and this is how she starts feeling some kind of way towards him. Maybe she tells this to Arya and that’s part of their conflict because Arya still thinks of Jon as a brother regardless but Sansa wants it made public he’s not and to get him dethroned.
Flayed Potatoes,
Lol. Twincest for the win then. But right afterwards valonquar must make an appearance so there’s an opening for Brienne/Jamie fromance.
Ginevra,
This. So true.
ACcording to the spoilers
Bbirgitt,
Looking at it from a perspective I haven’t thought about Dany basically did the same thing to her brother, the true heir, as her enemies did to her father the king. Viserys was a power hungry ahole and Dany at some point because of this, or maybe even aside from it, decided he wasn’t going to lead the army to ascend the throne but she is. He saw how Drogo was brushing him aside and everyone eyes lit on Dany and that’s what drove him to act the way he did. (unless I’m remembering incorrectly, it’s been awhile lol) Letting Drogo kill him was no different than the killing of Aerys really. Viserys needed putting down lol but Ned would not have approved of Drogo or Dany.
Anyways, my view on Dany’s succession claim is further tainted. Not her fault though, any young girl given magic as powerful as she has is bound to see it as a clear favoring by the Gods 🙂
Jon Snowed,
I don’t think so, she doesn’t burn innocents that would be different. She burns the Tarly’s who betray their wardens for greed and land resulting in Olenna’s death and the fall and probably extinction of house Tyrell, per the leaks she gives Randyll one chance to kneel to her, he refuses so she executes him by fire. Something Targaryen’s always did when they had dragons. Dany is emulating Aegon The Conqueror, he burned and executed people by the tens of thousands with fire and no one called him mad instead his looked up to as a legendary figure even though he had no claim to Westeros, he simply wanted it. Emilia Clarke said in a interview this season Dany emulates several past Targaryen’s going down different paths, Aegon happens to be one of them which isn’t surprising. Tyrion didn’t want Dany involved in the battle at all, he wanted her to work on allying with the north instead and let the dothraki do the work. Tyrion also apparently doesn’t want Dany going after Jon and co in the wight hunt either. We can’t call Dany mad for killing the Tarly’s when they did the same thing as Roose Bolton who The Starks would of killed too had Ramsay not killed him first, also Arya is meant to kill all of Walder Frey’s sons so again you can’t call one mad without calling all of them mad. What they all are is ruthless against their enemies
What I wrote was directly from a summary of leaks I read which apparently came from away for the lads, it was posted on Reddit and showed screenshots of questions which were asked and his/her responses. The problem is some of these are easy to fake and it’s clear having read some of the “leaks” posted by contributors on here that there is mis-information mixed in.
I think it will be interesting to see how Dany’s arc plays out, I don’t see a plausible scenario where both her and Jon live happily so I suspect one is going to die before the end.
Mel,
But I’m sure the show will turn the Tarlys into complete mustache twirling comic book villains as per usual with everyone who opposes Dany, since it’s team good guys vs team bad guys now.
ygritte,
I don’t know on what basis you are comparing both the situations…other than both of them who died being mad and stupid ..
Why exactly should we get approval of Ned for everything …I would really like to ask him what would one do if a brother you have known all your life is putting a sword in your belly and saying that he will kill the child you carry ..
Its not dany’s fault that she adapted to the life which her brother sold her to..
I would really like to see what exactly should dany have done to save his brother ..
And this is after viserys death
ygritte,
Viserys threatened her and the baby and wanted to spill blood in a holy place. He had it coming.
Mel,
It seems The great intelligent tyrion and his friend varys did not know about Harrenhall or field of fire and they just want to jump to aerys every time dany takes a step or doesn’t behave as their puppet..
Well at this point the writers while writing the season ..they just tick the boxes as they go along ..
Jon having a badass battle ..check
Dany burning someone …check
Tyrion questioning dany and bringing up aerys to her facr …check
The list goes on for other characters as well…
Flayed Potatoes,
Nvm
There has definitely been a alot of misogynistic crap levelled at Sansa/Sophie on this forum (I never said this thread, but, its geting there…). I’m not a ‘lost cause’, as I have many other second tier characters I enjoy & follow (Arya/Davos/LF/Hound/Mel & Jorah). If i’m a ‘lost cause’ (ie: someone whom follows Sansa’s storyline without moral indignation all down to BotB ep), then inform/enlighten me with what is the ‘right’ cause…? My point was to simply list some of the traumas shes endured over 6 seasons so far. Yes, she doesn’t own the dubious title ‘Most abused GoT character ever’, thats not the point, its simply to remind people of what she’s been through & to highlight why she appears to (possibly) be ambiguous ‘morally’. There are alot of keyboard warriors here & in especially on YT that dismiss whats happened to her & all too easily lay into her for her apparent passiveness. Its completely unrealistic. She’s stalled on help given to her thru fear(The Hound & LF’s first offer) & every other time an opportunity is shown, the carpet is yanked from beneath her (Pawn by Tyrells, The Eyrie saga, LF soft-frogmarching her to The Boltons, Ramsey intercepting any help at Winterfell.
I seem to remember Sansa on a battlement in S1 about to push Joffrey over a ledge after seeing her father/septas heads on spikes. Then what? Robbed by The Mountain! Poor girl cant bloody win.
dragonbringer,
I guess I prefer a slightly more realistic time line for someone to achieve greatness…
Besides, Sansa doesn’t have Jorah as a moral compass, x3 dragons and some magical qualities to enhance her..?
ygritte,
I know people would like to focus on the dany’s view of Ned but if we look right after it she brings up viserys and informs his death ..she doesn’t have to do that yet she brings him up because even after his death she considers him as her true king. .
Mark Milburn,
Hmm sure she can take all 8 seasons for that. .
Dany had jorah for what 10 months in A game of thrones before that she had mad brother. .
Whereas sansa had a family Father and mother who are Lord and Lady and get to have education of a Lord’s daughter from a Septa…
There was no dragons and magical abilities that gave dany the sense to wary of people and doubt those who are being Helpful and not to blindly trust them…dany did not have any magical abilities to understand and adapt to the life style she doesn’t know to survive …she turned her worst situation into best by adapting and managing to make drogo fall for her and again she didn’t have any magical abilities for that …
Mel,
I hope that the show is able to present this situation in a more neutral manner rather than a one sided portrayal of the Tarlys as greedy villains. Unfortunately, that is likely what will happen.
ygritte,
Nope! Haven’t read leaks. 🙂 I have it on my to do list to come back and read some of these comments after the season airs though.
dragonbringer,
Hey dragonbringer, I really agree with most things you post about Dany but do you really need to run down other characters in her defense? I don’t think it’s necessary to talk about how Sansa sucks to make Daenerys look better. Sansa was much younger and earlier in her development in AGOT. In many ways greatness was thrust on to her in book 1 after Drogo died, whereas with Sansa she was a prisoner until Season 6 (she’s still, basically, a prisoner in the books). I do agree that their development there are a lot of parallels. But can’t we see them as kindred spirits rather than some kind of rivals for fanlove?
I’ve patiently tried to explain about Sansa. What you’ve just brought to the table doesn’t make any sense. You can only try to make people understand someones predicament so many times…. Peace & out.
QueenofThrones,
It was not my intention to bring sansa down and I don’t hate sansa..I can see what are the hurdles and hardships that sansa has to face in KL as a single person ..
I just don’t agree that sansa is more multidimensional and realistic than Jon and dany ..jon and dany are as much multi layered and even more than sansa is we have to accept that ….I wouldn’t even have commented if he just spoke about sansa ..I see many hate comments from sansa fans this season because of this whole shipping thing and I thought this person is one them.
dragonbringer,
The comment about Ned not approving was tongue in cheek 🙂 I remember being confused at his animosity towards Jamie for offing the mad king especially after what he’d done to Ned’s own family members. But I thought I was pretty respectful of Danaerys in the post. Heck as a Jon fan if I entertained thoughts of them making him get darker why should she be off limits lol. It’s D& D who said all Targs can have ruthless side I believe.
dragonbringer,
In a way I’m very glad to have gone into this show unsullied because if I hadn’t I know many of the portrayals would not live up to my expectations either.
ygritte,
I would really like to see Ned’s thoughts about the situation in which dany was …because you know it may save many arguments about dany killing viserys. .
Its one thing to be called as ruthless and another to say that she let her brother killed or had a part in his death for her own power gain .at least that’s what I thought you were saying
ygritte,
This I can agree with…that’s exactly why I advise people those who hadn’t read the books to wait till the show is over and after that start reading books ..
But the problem with this I see most people get influenced by show’s versions and skip those chapters of characters they had negative impression while watching the show..after all even in the case of reading the books and every chapter we get influenced and confused by show canon because visual medium being more memorable than reading
QueenofThrones,
Good idea, it will be amusing in hindsight 🙂
Mark Milburn,
I actually wasn’t talking about you with my comment to dragonbringer, as I was replying to their specific post. And fortunately I have no problems understanding Sansa or her predicament, so you can probably take a load off on “patiently explaining” it to me or anyone else, although the irony of that presumption is just classic. It’s actually really simple: I have read and understood the novels, viewed and understood the series, believe there need to be more compelling roles for women on television, and I still disagree with you. There are worse things.
dragonbringer,
I’d disagree there. I don’t think a visual medium is any easier to remember than reading. The only thing being a show watcher first will do for a reader is give them an immediate visual of what the characters look like despite GRRM’s description of how that character looks.
In my opinion, the entire problem with Sansa is that D&D took her from the empowering growth the books have her on in the Vale (keeping secrets, telling lies, eventually seducing men = playing the game) and made her a victim yet again by marrying her to Ramsay. Then when she gets freed the viewer is supposed to see her suddenly as this shrewd tactician/plotter? It makes no sense when we’ve only seen her being beaten or raped. If D&D wanted to force her to marry Ramsay, they should have buffed up the northern conspiracy at Winterfell and had a bunch of Bolton men dying and had Sansa be the mastermind of it all. Instead of just one old lady who dies quick.
Or keep her in the Vale and have Jon rush to fight Ramsay because they leak news that he’s marrying Arya (who would be a fake like the books) but Jon doesn’t know on top of Rickon being captured too. Then as things look horrible for Jon in comes Sansa to the rescue with the Vale army that she helped coax into the war, showing the audience growth in her as a real player.
Mark Milburn,
Two things. First, Arya has never been a second-tier character in either the book or the show. She was one of the first characters created and in the Big 5. ( Sansa seems to be an unofficial 6.) Arya gets a bit less attention because she wasn’t the window into all the fascinating political machinations that Sansa was, but she’s very much had her own story. Statistically, she’s equal to or above Sansa in book chapters, episodes, on-screen minutes..and way above in popularity. This is a nitpick, but don’t dismiss her–she’s very important.
Second, you wrote: “Besides, Sansa doesn’t have Jorah as a moral compass, x3 dragons and some magical qualities to enhance her..?”
No, she has Littlefinger as a moral compass and mentor. She’s still seeking his lessons, despite knowing he’s a multi-murderer, schemer, conniver, and betrayer. This season she’ll finally learn some (probably not all) of the crimes LF has committed against her family and her (framing her for Purple Wedding) and will feel awful. I hope that her keeping him at Winterfell doesn’t cause more damage, because the snake can still strike.
Mark Milburn:
Not the Mountain. The Hound, who saved her life as well as Joffrey’s.
***
All it would take was a shove, she told herself. He was standing right there, right there, smirking at her with those fat wormlips. You could do it, she told herself. You could. Do it right now. It wouldn’t even matter if she went over with him. It wouldn’t matter at all.
“Here, girl.” Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.
[italics in book]
***
I fail to see how a desperate, heartbroken 12-year-old girl purposely going off a ledge with her torturer would have been “winning.”
I do understand your other points about much of the Sansa bashing, though.
Sansa has a moral compass of sorts and it’s Brienne. Or did you forget the scene when Bri asked her why she lied to Jon? Brienne doesn’t like or trust LF, but of course it’s up to Sansa to clean her ears and listen.
I actually love Arya too, I see what you mean re: tier. It wasn’t meant to be derogatory in any form… I have in no way witten her off! Also, i’m highly aware that Sansa has LF as her moral compass. I used Jorah to illustrate the difference in both women having someone as their go-to. (though if we’re going to nit pick, Jorah himself started off morally as bad as LF). Thankyou.
Wolfish,
Please. The use of the word ‘winning’ was more my own apathy at responses to the way other commentators appear to level their vitriol against Sansa’s character. I used the battlement scene to illustrate that there was a spark initially to be pro-active (in her own way) against her captors, which was then systematically & quickly smothered.
There are definitely worse things. I totally agree with needing compelling roles for women too. Apologies if I seem ‘off’, it seems to be a gr8 sport here & on you-tube to bash Sansa. Some people go hell-for-leather on bullied people/characters & I just wanted to bring a little ‘balance’. Looks like it backfired on me though! Lol.
Perhaps “self-entitled,” which I couldn’t find a definition for, is different from “entitled,” which was first used in the 14th century when the Stuarts were just starting their reign and which means: “to furnish with proper grounds for seeking or claiming something.” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitled
So the Stuarts were entitled to the crown because of their birthright and felt morally obligated to take it back.
I agree that the kidnapping analogy is somewhat true, but how does a family come to acquire the crown aside from conquering? I’m not that knowledgeable in history, and I’m certain that there are a few families who first came to power without conquering those previously in power, land conquerors rather than people conquerors, but I would also think those are in the minority. Am I wrong? And so a better analogy for wanting to restore a family to the throne might be that the familiy wants to kidnap back the baby their family kidnapped so long ago.
Wolfish,
He “disrespects” her by not considering that she might have valuable input. eg. he didn’t ask her opinion about Ramsay when he made his battle plans when she was the most obvious person to ask.
I did find a rough definition that may be what you mean:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/entitlement
Though this term is new, I doubt the actual characteristic is. I’m sure there were folks who were arrogant about privileges they felt they deserved. Note that whether they actually deserved them or not is not part of the definition, and that is my rough understanding of “sense of entitlement.” They may legitimately be entitled, like Viserys, while displaying a sense of entitlement.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
I mean honestly, if you saw how she acted at interviews after they all first got the script, you would be certain that she’s a troll. She definitely tells half-truths in her interviews.
Mark Milburn,
Hey, there is nothing that should ever make you feel inhibited from expressing your point of view. I only really take issue when it’s insinuated that people who disagree need to quiet down or be educated on the show they’re watching. Adding your voice to the mix is what participating in fandom is about. No one will ever agree on everything. I do know what it’s like to connect with characters who get dragged by viewers. Try being a fan of any female character created by Steven Moffat – it ain’t pretty. While I’ve seen tons of bashing directed towards various characters on other sites, I don’t often see posters on this site cross that line. Expressing criticism or dislike, yes, but not the outright bashing you see on YouTube, Twitter, or Reddit.
dragonbringer,
I dunno the people I know who have read the books along with the show pretty much read through, not skipping chapters but maybe you are right. I just don’t think most people will have trouble synthesize information from the reading to the events in the show. Oh while I know what you mean by a ‘visual medium’ reading can be one as well. I see a movie playing in my head when I read and they are often as strong of an image as ones playing on the screeen. And its been amazing watching the show to see so many scenes matching my film!
Mark Milburn:
No need to get snippy, young man. I agree with most of your points about the “Sansa hate.” On another note, I don’t think one person’s (granted, a very gruff and broken person’s) singular act of kindness ought to be read as part of a “systematic” smothering of her spark. If anything, Sandor is one of the people who, directly or indirectly, empowered her to think outside of the box (pardon the cliché).
WallyFrench,
I agree with what you say ..for me shows and films of many series which I found difficult to focus or continue reading helped me actually in reading …
I remember a time when I tried looking at the chapters for finding a passage about Cat and mastermaster luwin prepare winter fell for Roberts arrival and specifically for Tyrion because he spends so much time on reading ..
After so many attempts I thought may be I dreamed about that sequence than I find it actually happens on the show in episode 1..
I agree with what you said about sansa Arc ..my main problem with show not only with sansa but most of the cahracters is that even after they go forward with their own canon they are restricted with what’s going to happen in the books ..
I don’t think book sansa and Jon will interact before taking the winter fell …sansa coming with vale will be like another instance of tywin coming to Kl during blackwater and stannis coming to wall ..
But show made them interact earlier than that but didn’t have sansa tell Jon about vale because in the books Jon won’t know of vale’s presence and so he shouldn’t know about it in show too..
Another example is with dany banishing jorah.,the whole cersei and Jamie at sept fiasco and so many ..
ash,
I mainly speak based on my experience at westeros.org ..
There is a separate section for each books who are reading the individual books at the time ..you can find lot of people acting only on show influence
And then there is general section where newcomers come up with lot of theories and speculations based on show aalone not realizing that didn’t even happen in books..
iam glad most of it matched with my own imagination as well.
Kris,
So why doesn’t she speak up then? She’s a grown woman, not a five year old child. She had no problem speaking up during the council scene in episode 5, when they were deciding how to get support against the Boltons. Jon even listened to her advice about recruiting the Blackfish and the Tully army. Jon even straight up asked her what to do to get more men and her reply was “I don’t know” lmao. Sorry, but that excuse just doesn’t hold.
Flayed Potatoes,
She was an equal partner in the council scene as the only legitimate Stark. She was also the impetus behind raising an army to fight Ramsay. Jon was initially reluctant.
But how do I know Sansa didn’t appreciate not being consulted in the war plans? Because she says so herself. You asked why she would think she’s being disrespected, and there’s your answer. If you don’t think that’s a good reason to feel disrespected, it’s beside the point. It’s what the character thinks.
And why wouldn’t she speak up? Because Jon is the commander of the army and to question him in front of his men diminishes his authority. She does the right thing by waiting until they leave. As to why she doesn’t say where they could get more men isn’t addressed in the show. Possible reasons are; she’s been told by Littlefinger to keep it quiet, she doesn’t know if the army will arrive in time or at all, she doesn’t trust Jon not be taken in by Ramsay and the Vale army is backup. But whatever her reasons, the strategy works. Despite Sansa telling Jon not to do what Ramsay wants him to do, Jon does it anyway. She was right about Ramsay. And she was right about Jon.
Kris,
She showed up with the army, so she had to have met them off screen. Therefore she knew. In the parlay scene she confidently tells Ramsay he will die tomorrow. There’s no reason to be that confident unless you know you have backups.
If you have information, you volunteer it. And there’s a way to do it without looking like you’re disrespecting others, which obviously Sansa doesn’t know how to do, when you look at how she addresses Jon and how she talks about Davos. Such a diplomat lmao.
If Littlefinger tells her to be quiet and she listens to him to do that, then she trusts the man who sold her to Ramsay over her own brother. That makes her a fool. “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.” And there’s no indication she even had this conversation with him. You justify her keeping the secret by assuming the existence of a scene that didn’t even happen.
She basically sends her brother to die without telling him she has backups or that she wrote the letter, so backups might be coming. Jon can send scouts to verify if they’re coming, you know. The fact that Jon is still alive when the Vale arrives is a miracle and there’s no way she would have known that he would still be alive. It is still possible to tell someone you have backups and keep those backups a secret from Ramsay.
Flayed Potatoes,
Bravo mi’lady! Like, this has been stated in so many ways the past year trying to get folks to understand, yet you just managed to make it more succinct than ever.
We have every right to distrust Sansa
Kris,
But she said herself she doesn’t know anything about battles, so why is she the obvious person to ask? I mean, we’re talking about medieval period social mores. Women weren’t often included in these kind of preparations. Now as for getting to understand who Ramsey is, how he operates, I would assume they’d already discussed that. Or, at least the viewers did assume after the reunion they must have said things off screen in between talking about pea soup and Night’s watch ale. Ramsey’s letter to Jon would give him a big clue what kind of person he’s dealing with.
ygritte,
She’s the obvious person to ask because she knows the enemy. And she was the only person there who had any personal dealings with him. Even Littlefinger knew nothing of him, what he was like.
But the proof is in the pudding as the saying goes. Because Sansa was right. Despite her warning to Jon he still fell for Ramsay’s trap. Despite the “letter” and whatever clues Jon may have gleaned about Ramsay’s character, he still fell for the trap. Your “assumption” that Sansa and Jon had discussed the psychological traps that Ramsay was capable of doesn’t hold up since Sansa wouldn’t otherwise have complained about Jon not consulting her – that she might have some insight into who they were dealing with.
All the speculation in the world doesn’t negate the fact that Jon did what Sansa warned him against. He was fooled into doing exactly what Ramsay wanted him to do. Sansa was right. About Ramsay. About Jon.
Kris,
I really wish Sansa was there in Jon’s place when Rickon was running towards her.Let’s see what she would have done.And how that would have gone over with the army.
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features/game-of-thrones-cover-story-emilia-clarke-the-queen-of-dragons-tells-all-w489550
Emilia Clarke’s new Rolling Stones Interview with a Emilia photoshoot, new picture of Dany on the throne in her black and red outfit, there is a video of Emilia’s firsts, a really in depth interview about acting in game of thrones, feminism and it gets really heartbreaking when she talks about not getting back to London in time to saw goodbye to her father before he passed last year.
Kris,
Jenny,
No matter what Sansa said to Jon, the fact is their youngest sibling was running to them in fear of death. Jon running to Rickon trying to save him may look stupid on a tactical front but that’s his little brother and he’d have to be pretty damn heartless not to try. Ramsay would of killed Rickon either way, he was too much of a threat being a true born Stark son but at least Rickon died knowing his brother Jon loved him and tried to save him instead of just standing there and watching him die.
Flayed Potatoes,
She only have had to have met the army the same day, not the day before. You show confidence of winning to gain a psychological advantage over your adversary. Or are suggesting you do the opposite? Moreover, Sansa doesn’t display the same level of confidence when she’s with Jon with her determination to suicide rather than be back with Ramsay.
If you have information you volunteer it if it is appropriate to do so. Or do want to be like that fool Trump who gives confidential information to the Russians?
I repeat, Jon was the commander. His men needed to have confidence in him. It was not the time to say anything that could undermine their confidence in them. I have an idea, the next time your boss is having a meeting with people he needs to impress, don’t be shy about correcting him in front of them. I’m sure he won’t mind.
You need to give an example of Sansa disrespecting Jon or Davos.
Littlefinger is in charge of the Vale army. He can withdraw it if he wants to. It’s not about trust. It’s about practicality. It’s not Sansa’s army. It’s as simple as that.
I said that any conversation between Littlefinger and Sansa was speculation – that why Sansa didn’t tell Jon isn’t addressed on the show. So why are you are accusing me of making assumptions, when I’ve already said that’s what I was doing?
Jon was determined to fight “with the army they have” despite Sansa’s protests that they need more men and should wait until they do.
With the Vale army, without the Vale army, Jon could have died. That’s what happens in battle. Go watch the battle scene again. Observe how much chance plays a part. To say that knowing about the Vale army would have made any difference if an arrow fell his way, is ludicrous to me. Even with the largest army in the world she couldn’t know if he’d survive. And lets not forget that it was Jon falling for Ramsay’s tricks who led his army into what would have been certain death if not for Sansa.
Sansa didn’t send Jon into battle without backup. Jon sent himself. Sansa arranged backup for him. Why doesn’t she get credit for that?
Let’s assume that Jon knew about the Vale army. What difference would it have made? If they were seen on the field, Ramsay need only retreat behind Winterfell walls and settle in for a seige – a seige that the Stark army couldn’t afford. They needed to draw Ramsay into a battle. Ramsay’s no fool. He chooses battle because he knows he outnumbers the Stark army. Therefore, the Vale army needs to be out of sight.
And then they need to join the battle at precisely the right time in which to rout the Bolton army to bring about a decisive defeat. That is, when the Bolton army is in a position in which they can be surrounded. And that’s exactly what happens, even without Jon’s knowledge.
However, as I said to Ygritte, the proof is in the pudding. The Stark army won. You can speculate all you like what might have happened if Jon had known about the Vale army but it doesn’t change the fact that Ramsay was defeated and the Bolton army was destroyed. It was a good outcome. There’s no way of knowing that if Jon had been told about the Vale army if they would have had a better one. Or that Jon still wouldn’t have fallen for Ramsay’s tricks. Ramsay did what Ramsay does and Jon did what Jon does. Just as well someone was there to pick up the pieces.
Mel,
Jenny, no argument from me. Jon couldn’t have done otherwise being the person he is. What I’m arguing against is that Sansa was in the wrong for staying silent. Only Sansa knew what Ramsay was truly capable of having experienced it herself and seen what he did to Theon. The Vale army was the insurance against such a thing happening.
Kris,
Are you comparing Sansa giving info to her own brother and the northern army (over whom she apparently wants to rule) about available reinforcements before these same people were going to risk their lives for the sake of the Starks, to Trump passing on classified information to Russia??? Wtf!
Jenny,
Why would you wish Sansa had been in Jon’s place? Sansa didn’t judge Jon for doing what he did. She anticipated that Ramsay would do something that would mess with his head. Ramsay was an expert at it.
I think if she had been leading the army, she probably would have given instructions for them not to follow her if Ramsay goaded her into doing something that wasn’t planned. But then Sansa knew what he was like. Jon didn’t – not really. All she could do was warn him not to do what Ramsay wanted him to do since she didn’t know precisely what that would be.
No, I’m making a point about not giving information when it’s not appropriate to do so. Just because you have it, it doesn’t mean you have to share it. Or that it will be of benefit if you do.
I can’t be bothered repeating what I’ve already argued, so I encourage you to read my posts. I will only say that the results speak for themselves. The Stark army won when they would have died to the man.
Kris,
lmaooo
She mocked Davos for bringing in the soldiers from House Mormont in episode 7 (whereas all she accomplished during the northern tour was piss off Lord Mormont), she tried to be snarky with Davos by claiming he doesn’t know Northerners like she does in episode 5 (only to be proven wrong by him when she wasn’t able to gather anyone in her north based on her Stark name). In the tent scenes she mocked Jon’s battle plans when he was planning with the resources he had available to him at the time. Please actually watch the season and then come back to me.
Whether she knew on what day they would arrive or not, she had to tell Jon she’d written to Littlefinger so Jon could verify via scouts if the army was coming or not and incorporate them into the plan.
Jon was determined to fight with the army they had because there was nobody else willing to help them. The Blackfish refused them, the North refused them. It is all mentioned in that dumb tent scene in episode 9. To Jon’s knowledge, there’s nobody else they can call on for help, so he has to attack before things get worse. If you tell someone to wait, you have to say why. He asks her straight up what to do about getting more men and all she says is “I don’t know anything about battles”. Useless.
Sansa “arranges backup”, but doesn’t tell her allies about the backup so they can plan with the backup in mind. That’s asinine. Jon isn’t the only person fighting in this battle. There are Wildlings, Mormonts, and those 2 other houses who have risked a lot by backing underdogs, when they could have easily refused and stayed home. They deserved to know.
Jon even thanked her for the Vale in that scene on the battlements. He gave her credit and respect. Should he build a friggin statue in her honor so you’ll all be appeased?
“Let’s assume that Jon knew about the Vale army. What difference would it have made?”
All the difference in the world lmfao. You plan knowing there is backup coming, you know the backup is coming and you coordinate when the backup will attack. The plan will most likely be: Jon and his army draws Ramsay out of Winterfell (which happened on the show because Ramsay wanted to crush him) and they last long enough for the Vale to attack. What Sansa fans don’t get is that it is possible to inform Jon about the Vale and still keep it a secret from Ramsay. You guys act like to tell Jon and his allies about an army means that Ramsay automatically knows, which isn’t the case. How is telling Jon that you wrote to ask for an army to help your common cause undermining him? He was asking for more men. He would have been happy. Their allies would have been relieved knowing their chances to win were increasing.
Telling Jon about the army also makes Sansa look less like a selfish little girl who smiles smugly on a hill while people are fighting for their lives. She let Littlefinger’s words about Jon being her “half brother” who has his own army (see brothel scene) get to her. She was honest with Jon until LF got in her head again and played her like a fiddle. The actress herself said her character kept the army a secret so she could get credit. What a petty, selfish and short-sighted thing to do. “I’ll keep my secret army a secret…. from my allies. They will be so grateful I sent them out to battle unprepared!” lmao bye
ghost of winterfell,
I’m flabbergasted tbh
“I am going to keep this vital information that can help me and my allies…. from my allies.” lmfao
And then moan that you weren’t made queen by the people you kept the information from… well gurl.
Mel,
That’s sad about her father ..
What are the chances you think that this interview will be made into a post here at watchers on the wall..
People should stop embarrassing themselves and sansa by defending what happens in battle of bastards and building up to it …just put the blame on where it should really be …on the writers and their poor writing and move on
100% 😛
just was
Still so much hate for Sansa… it’s getting really over the top now. She wasn’t a villain in S6, she carried her own story and according to the producers, it was not their intention for audience to dislike her. And do you put more belief in these interviews than in what we’ve actually seen on screen? Seriously…
Lord Parramandas,
A villain? LOL!!!!!!!!!!
dragonbringer,
Agreed 🙂 I definitely don’t think they meet till after taking of Winterfell. GRRM loves his surprise battle victories as you’ve listed!
First of all, the attempt to rally other Northern lords to the Stark cause happened after that conversation with Davos so it’s irrelevant. And second, Sansa gave her opinion based on her father’s knowledge of the North to someone who was a stranger to her. It wasn’t disrespect, no more than Davos’s reply to her that all men are the same.
In the tent scene, she respectfully waited until the others had left before voicing her opinion. You said in an earlier post that Sansa is an adult with a voice and now you’re castigating her for using it. Was she wrong? Did they need more men? All it shows is that Sansa was reluctant to fight without them. It also shows the desperation she was under to go to Littlefinger for help. In an earlier post you said she was a fool to trust him. Yet she had no choice if they were to defeat Ramsay. And now they have to deal with him. Sansa knew allowing Littlefinger to help would cause trouble of a different kind.
You can’t say that she was wrong not to speak up, then say it was disrespectful when she did. You can’t say she was a fool to trust Littlefinger, and then say she was fool for not allowing Jon to rely on the chance that Littlefinger would be true to his word. You are trying to have it both ways.
Jon had to go in knowing that he had to rely on his own resources. You say yourself that Littlefinger isn’t someone who can be trusted, yet you make Sansa a bad guy for taking that into consideration.
Jon was likely determined to fight with the army they had (I don’t believe the reason why is addressed in the show) is that winter was closing in. They were presented with the same challenges as Stannis was when he attempted a siege on Winterfell. (It only became a battle because Ramsay seized the advantage by killing their horses and destroying their supplies and the odds turned in his favour. Stannis further ruined his chances by killing Shireen which was likely at least part of the reason why half his army deserted.) When Jon’s turn came, winter was even closer. Ramsay could afford to bunk down in Winterfell. Jon couldn’t afford the long months a siege would take.
Sansa couldn’t know they could rely on backup. Jon had to go in knowing that could only rely on himself and his men. You do know it’s Littlefinger she’s dealing with? A man you can trust not to be trusted? No one knows him better than Sansa. Or maybe her father – you know the man who thought he could rely on Littlefinger but then was betrayed by him. Jon was so lucky that Sansa buried her scruples and went to a man she hates and mistrusts. Although now they have a snake in their midst and are beholden to him. I suppose that’s Sansa’s fault too.
There’s flaws in your theory about back up. First of all the Vale army wasn’t Sansa’s to command. It was Littlfinger’s. If he said to keep knowledge of it from Jon, she had to keep it from Jon. Your suggestion that Sansa tell Jon about it anyway is dangerous if Littlefinger got wind of it. We also don’t know when Sansa learned that the Vale army would be there. It may have been that very morning, for all we know. Who knows Littlefinger’s strategy, but my guess is to wait and join in when it was most advantageous to them to do so. This had to be a decisive victory.
Your battle plan gets the same result with, or without, Jon’s knowledge. So where’s the advantage of Jon knowing about it? No one knew what Ramsay would do. You keep on forgetting that Jon fell for Ramsay’s tricks and no one knew what that trick would be. What if there was a plan? Jon didn’t stick to the battle plan he had. I’ll repeat it. Jon didn’t stick to the battle plan. Just as well someone wilier had anticipated it and was there for backup.
It seems to be to be a gender thing. Because my guess is if the positions were reversed, Jon would be lauded for looking out for Sansa and the Stark/Wildling army. He’d be lauded for setting aside personal scruples and making a deal with a man he despises (and now will be beholden to) to save his half-sister from herself. He wouldn’t be called a “selfish little boy” for taking satisfaction in a Stark victory, but taking grim (and well deserved) satisfaction for outwitting a tyrant and someone who had subjected him to both physical and psychological torture.
I don’t care what Sophie says (who is known for being somewhat of a troll) but what the character says and does. For someone who wanted credit, Sansa sure downplays it by giving Jon the master bedroom and smiling encouragingly when he’s named King of the North.
Kris,
Gender has nothing to do with it. It’s common sense. Say you’re a young person who’s never held a weapon and couldn’t fight your way out of a cardboard box. You admit you know nothing about battles. Your side is commanded by your older brother, who just gave you a home and his protection. He is a hardened, experienced, and successful warrior but with limited resources and manpower facing a foe you know intimately. You just asked an unreliable friend to bring reinforcements. You shared potentially useful information with your brother about this enemy and urge him to use it. But you haven’t yet told him about the friend, who might now come? Recently, when you hadn’t told your brother about how you knew an ally had taken a castle, your own personal bodyguard–an experienced warrior you trust with your life–chided you for not telling him. So did you learn the lesson? Bad weather is closing in and your beother is inclined to attack. If you have any sense you surely realise that you MUST share all information that can possibly be useful for your brother to win. Explain the friend is unreliable, but tell him. He’ll know best if he can use it and how. Say the friend owes you one, so while nobody should trust him, you think he’ll deliver this time. If you don’t do this, why should anybody ever trust YOU?
When the character is described as a “silly little girl”, both age and gender has been brought into it. So for you to say it isn’t a factor in Flayed Potatoes description is incorrect. And if Flayed Potatoes appears to be female herself (from the picture) it makes no difference. Females can be sexist against their own gender too.
Your premise is incorrect. You are arguing that Sansa knows nothing about battles when the issue is psychological manipulation of which Ramsay is master. Sansa has experienced first hand what Ramsay is capable of. Jon has not. Jon naively challenges Ramsay to single combat thinking that his refusal to do so will shame him in front of his men. As if. He has no idea what he’s dealing with. He thinks he’s dealt with worse with the white walkers as if that’s all there is to it. Ramsay is a different kettle of fish entirely.
That Jon severely underestimates Ramsay is evident when he falls for Ramsay’s trick. I keep on reading arguments that if Jon had known about the Vale army it would have turned out differently. No one knew what Ramsay would do. No one. All Sansa could do was warn him that Ramsay was a master at setting traps and not to do what Ramsay wanted him to. And Jon did, despite Sansa’s warning.
I’ll repeat that again. And Jon did, despite Sansa’s warning. What a good thing that Sansa had appealed to Littlefinger for back-up. Why isn’t Sansa given credit for having done that? She had to swallow pride and scruples to essentially save Jon from himself.
Littlefinger isn’t a friend – he’s already set himself as a dangerous rival for Jon. He isn’t a friend of Sansa’s either. (In the barn, Sansa tells him he’s her enemy.) He wants something from her as the “true” heir to the North (and possibly as a substitute for Caitlyn too). This help from Littlefinger is going to cost. Sansa knew that. Littlefinger doesn’t do anything that doesn’t benefit himself. She tells him this under the weirwood tree.
Sansa has a trust issue. Everyone she’s relied on to protect her has let her down. So would have Jon, if she hadn’t stepped in, went against her principles, and gone to Littlefinger for help. She’s learned that the only person she can truly rely on is herself.
And, no, you don’t share all information if that information will compromise a friend’s safety. The Vale army was backup against any trap that Ramsay set. A trap that no one knew what it would be. And what’s the point of telling someone that there could be help available but it isn’t reliable? Go into battle, Jon, but know that the help promised might not eventuate? I’m sorry, that’s dumb. With or without knowing about the Vale army, Jon had to approach it as if he could only rely on his own resources.
“He’ll know best if he can use it and how.” Evidence? As I’ve said, the proof is in the pudding. Jon did fall for Ramsay’s manipulations, despite Sansa’s warning. Sansa saved the day. And yet there’s still argument that Jon would have known best despite the fact that he did what Sansa warned him against.
The Starks won. Yet somehow Sansa isn’t allowed credit for helping making it happen. This assumption that Jon knows best is frankly sexist. He didn’t know best. Sansa knew best because she knew the type of person they were dealing with. She knew his genius for psychological manipulation. She was right on every count.
And if Jon now has trust issues with Sansa, Sansa can turn it around and tell him that at least he’s alive not to trust her. She saved the day. If that’s not a reason to trust someone and know they have your best interests at heart, I don’t know what is. I think I’d rather not be fully informed about something and still be alive to talk about it.
Keep on Kris. You’re on “FIRE!” (as in the Arthur Brown song!). Props. Don’t interfere with a sulky northern man with long curly hair that both the men (want to be) & the women love. They’re gonna come for ya. Lawdee, I love being a ‘lost cause’!
Its pure HATE. Let ’em hate. No-one can touch Jon Snow. He has a force field of sycophants like a hedge of heavenly angles, oop, I meant angels. Sorry, the prosecco.
And Lord Parramandas.
It’s the belief that Sansa’s (successful) intervention somehow diminishes Jon Snow that’s at the core of it, I think. But it’s all part of the character’s arc. This experience will teach him the value of learning how the enemy thinks, what motivates them, that not everyone plays to the same rules, that knowledge can come from unexpected sources. When it’s time to confront the white walkers Jon won’t do so without learning as much as he can about them first. He won’t go in with the same hubris “that he’s faced worse”.
Jon also didn’t do anything that diminishes his character. He tried to save his brother and was enraged when he couldn’t. He couldn’t have done anything else. If he hadn’t responded as he did, he wouldn’t have been Jon.
Jon will need Sansa to be a strong, independently minded woman. She’ll have to make decisions on her own without consultation with him. That they make a complementary pair is good. Jon has the military experience and is able to inspire devotion and Sansa has the political nous.
Holiday in Croatia, Kroatien Urlaub, kvarner bay villas, Kvarner bay apartments, Croatia kvarner bay, apartments in kvarner bay