The long absent Brotherhood Without Banners and their resurrected leader Beric Dondarrion are the subject of much discussion among Game of Thrones fans, as the band of rebels has a more significant role to play in the novels than they have so far in the show. The Brotherhood made a splash in season 3 with a fiery duel between Beric and the Hound, but we haven’t seen anything from them since, leaving fans to wonder if the Brotherhood Without Banners storyline has been dropped entirely.
While promoting the new crime thriller Fortitude in Esquire, Richard Dormer addressed the question of whether we would ever see Beric Dondarrion again on Game of Thrones.
Dormer told the magazine directly, “Well, they haven’t told me about it, so I don’t think so.”
That doesn’t mean the Brotherhood can be counted out, but some had speculated we might see a Beric appearance in relation to another notable character.
Esquire chatted with Dormer about the show further, with the actor admitting that he’s never watched it, not having the time. He says of his role, “Beric was a noble character, a leader of men. Kind of like Robin Hood. So I thought, that’s how I’ll play the guy.”
Comparing making Game of Thrones to his new gig on Fortitude, Dormer replies, “One was fire and the other was ice. Beric was one of the hottest experiences in my life. Filming in a cave, with a flaming sword, in that leather armor. It was boiling hot. It topped 40 degrees (104 degrees Fahrenheit) in the studio. Fortitude was very cold. Both productions were designed by Jemma [sic] Jackson and I think they both have that epic look. She’s a genius.”
In other cast interview news, Alfie Allen talked with Zap2it about season 5, and also about a particular quirk he’s experienced in his encounters with fans.
“In terms of what may happen further on down the line and will he go back to Theon one day, I can’t really give you an answer,” Allen tells Zap2it. “But I can tell you there may be some sort of light at the end of the tunnel this year — but in a very ‘Game of Thrones’ fashion.”
On a stranger note, Alfie discusses which fans are fascinated with Theon’s unfortunate maiming.
“It’s funny — when I talk to fans and talk to people about it, it’s only ever men that mention that. Women never mention it, it’s only ever guys. That’s kind of understandable, but it’s funny. I never really thought that signing an autograph and then putting a little willy next to it would make people so happy,” Allen says. “I should just make my signature a willy, and that’s it.”
For the full interview with Alfie Allen, visit Zap2it.
NODORM!
I like turtles.
Regarding Alfie…
The Dragon Demands,
Wish we also got an interview with Paul Kaye. If Paul Kaye also confirms that he hasn’t been contacted than we will be 100% sure the Brotherhood arc has been dropped. Atleast until season 6 anyway
Sometimes I really do wonder what David and Dan would have done differently if they’d had their huge sit-down with GRRM on the endgame at the beginning of the series, instead of in the middle of Season 3.
The BwB’s vanishing act is simply sad. My heart is very heavy, like a stone sinking to the bottom of the Trident.
I think they must have had some idea where things were going to go with that book storyline as they had Gendry jettisoned from the group and Melisandre made her cryptic comments to Arya about seeing her again. I don’t think they make those decisions without some future book knowledge about what was happening with those characters.
Andrew,
I’ve been of the opinion that they really should have gotten all that stuff from GRRM right off the bat (well, at least between season 1 and season 2).
King Tommen,
Given that they went through the trouble of promoting Joe Dempsie to series regular for Series 3 and then dumping him, I had been assuming he was once intended to
That’s what I assumed for the longest time, anyway, including (embarassingly) much of the first half of Season 4.
Sean C.,
Completely agree. I often like to compare the ASOIAF adaptation to the Harry Potter movies, filmed while the books were still ongoing. I imagine there’s a lot of things from the uber-faithful first few films that would have been jettisoned once the producers knew how irrelevant they were.
I do wonder what Richard Dormer’s contract looks like?
Veteran actors sign something with an option? A flat one year contract for this show , unless plot dictates, may be odd.
Another would be Clive Russell , but then what is GRRM doing with his character?
I find it hard to believe that D&D had no idea how the series would end. Even in the first season GRRM must have told him that things like Jon’s mother would be important and that character X would be there for the final battle. They might have only talked in depth with him from season three onwards, but generally speaking they must have had some idea.
Turncloak,
If Thoros doesn’t show up this season, Paul Kaye may end up doing media towards the end of the year for Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, so maybe someone could ask him then.
Beric’s definitely out though, in this case. They would’ve had to have at least broached the topic of season 6 with him by now to know if he’s available for when they start writing the season. I was hoping for a Beric return, but I’m REALLY hoping they can still work the Brotherhood back in without him now, because it would suck to have that left as a loose end.
Hard to compare HP with ASOIAF. The first few HP films were in part more faithfull than the later ones just because there was less material to adapt. The Philospher Stone is tiny in comparison with the Order of the Phoenix.
Hmm. I really liked BWB and hope to see some form of them in future seasons, but I also don’t really know where the story goes after ADWD so, guess I’ll just have to wait!
Nice to see Alfie’s thoughts on the new season.
Andrew,
Holy crap. That’s a great question.
I know IMDB is not to be trusted, but still I felt like sharing.
If this is true we might be getting Deepwood Motte afterall
Has Joe Dempsie been working on some other projects recently? If they are not going to use him he might as well look for other opportunities
This is the definition of inconsistency, lack of planning on the part of D&D. The power of bringing people back to life was a major revelation in S3. Now it is of no significance? Suddenly Riverlands and all its inhabitants are wiped the map of Westros!
This show is still far from becoming like “Lost” but definitely has taken a few steps in that direction.
Boojam,
I don’t think the TV industry does non-regular contracts where you can not use somebody for years on end and then have them back under its ambit. In the case of somebody like Dormer, he hasn’t done any work for them since late 2012 at the latest.
They had some information, in a very broad sense, but getting a complete plot breakdown would undoubtedly focus them much more on what the final seasons are actually going to look like, and what’s disposable, etc. Decisions like what they were going to do with Dorne and the Ironborn would have been made at that point, for instance.
Outside of
the power of bringing people back to life has not been of any significance in any of the other plots in the novels to date. Showing Thoros doesn’t create any sort of narrative inconsistency if he doesn’t do anything else with it.
I wasn’t expecting Beric to return anyway.
Well, I’m not surprised.
Jofrey’s Cunt,
Probably fans guessing / trolling, by putting her along the timeline of
Dogcheese,
She’s been neither confirming nor denying her return for a few years now. That last interview was nothing new.
Voice of Reason,
We saw the Riverlands in Season 3 because main characters were there. Robb, Catelyn, Jaime, Brianne, Arya, the Hound. None of them are there now. Not a single main character is there now… and that’s why we’re not seeing the Riverlands. It sounds like magic, I know; but I assure you, the Riverlands haven’t been wiped off the map, it’s just something called efficient storytelling.
Yeah, I’m not kidding. If I were adapting the books I would do the same. So, no, for example, I wouldn’t send Jaime to the Riverlands. I imagine their thinking went something like this, and I completely agree with it: “Hm, I’ve gotta introduce a whole new kingdom, Dorne, with a whole new roster of new characters who interact only with each other, five years into a seven years show… nope, sorry, I’m gonna send a main character there. Hm, Cersei sends a Kingsguard in the books to save Myrcella and plot against the Dornish… so, yeah, we’ll send Jaime, who is not only also a Kingsguard but even has a personal investment in this case (hell, Jaime considered going to Dorne for Myrcella in AFFC, if you recall.) That means his Riverlands plot is deleted, but the same story arc can be told in a different setting: Jaime trying to become Tywin; and Jaime refusing Cersei when she most needs him. The only relevant thing to tell this story is that Jaime must be far away from Cersei.
This tells us nothing. This question asked to Paul Kaye would be more enlightening.
Jofrey’s Cunt,
I’m torn, because the timing of those appearances fits Deepwood, and I would be really happy if that ends up on the show, but it also has Davos appearing in every Stannis episode, which would mean we’re not getting any meeting between Davos and a northern lord. I was still holding out hope Umber would show up to take Manderly’s place. Oh well, it’s IMDB, so it’s all meaningless.
My heart is heavy as well. Sigh!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Poetic. We will see 🙁
Luka Nieto,
I just want to see the Blackfish, besides being awesome in the show, his is a disappearing act that D&D have to explain, it wouldn’t be smart intelligent writing or drama to just ignore a previous plot or its characters for the sake of expediency just to compress into 7 seasons, you are insulting fans and viewers, which HBO cherishes, since the IQ level of their viewers is definitely higher than network tv. Therefore D&D should suck up and extend to an 8th season or a 7.1-7.2 and complete the other story elements that have been shoved aside.
tyjon,
No, it worked for Thoros then because the return of the dragons had brought magic back. Thoros just thinks that’s why it worked.
tyjon,
It’s not a “disseapearing act.” The Blackfish was a supporting character. As in, he served as support for other characters… who are not alive anymore. However, I too love the Blackfish and I’m pretty sure he will be back at some point. If that wasn’t gonna be the case, they could’ve killed him at the Red Wedding. The point is, at the end of season 3, he was on the run; that is, just as he was after Jaime’s Riverrun plot. We shouldn’t known the subplot was excised from that moment. The Blackfish will probably be back whenever it is time for him to be back in TWOW. As is Walder Frey; the actor has said many times D&D told him he’d be back in the future.
The Riverlands aren’t forgotten. They will be back before the end, as will at least some of their characters (Walder 100% confirmed, remember.) They’ve taken a backseat now, for a while… “a while” which will be considerably shorter in the show, since the fourth and fifth books have been adapted into a single season. So, by this time next year we may well be talking about how great it is that Walder, the Blackfish and others are confirmed to be back for Season 6.
That’s deep. For once, I wish the actor would have just said, ‘this season is going to be bigger and better than ever!’ Disappointed.
Luka Nieto,
Dogcheese,
Let’s not assume that last interview even happened. We only have the word of one poster here that it did and there’ve been many similar trolling attempts of late. I’d need a video of the interview before I believe that one.
I suspect they may get the Dagmer treatment: an offhand mention that the whole Brotherhood has been killed.
Even if they’re never spoken of again, they served their purpose in the show. Their betrayal added to Arya’s characterization, Melisandre’s involvement will likely pay off, and their arc resonated thematically (even the most well-meaning people can be corrupted by their good intentions).
Beric and Thoros are on Arya’s kill list in the show. That tells me that the Brotherhood will have to have some kind of resurgence in the show.
John M W,
I doubt that means anything. They were added to the list because it makes sense for them to be on TV!Arya’s list:
Voice of Reason,
Wrong.
I hope so. To me, the BwB represents much more than a stepping stone for Arya and a mechanism for foreshadowing Red Priest possibilities. They were/are the rebellious nature of the riverlands, a bizarre vengeful troupe of determined “Robin Hoods” trying to destabilize the Clegane & Lannister brutality. Their land is burning (as we saw at the end of S4ep1) and their people are dying and starving, but they are the merciless spirit of the indigenous riverland folk. The riverlands’ tales and activities (GRRM’s comment on the savagery and ramifications of war) are indeed intriguing!!
Regardless of their leadership conundrum, I wish there had been a few more shout-outs in KL (or the Vale or the North) regarding their vigilante activities….just to point out that the riverlands hasn’t been totally forgotten. Oh well, hopefully there is a return to their cause at some point. 🙂
If I recall, then the Brotherhood had only a cameo appearance in Crows, and no appearance at all in Dragons. So it is not as if this is unexpected: B&W would have had to basically invent a plot line for the BwB in order to fit them into the season, really. (I’m not even sure which lead character could have been dragged into it, which makes it really tough to see how it could be done.)
Perhaps: but, then, is that really important to the stories at hand? It’s not too relevant to the story in Season 4 (love/hate relationships), and it’s not too relevant to the story in Season 5 (striving to be something bigger). Moreover, all of this probably will become pretty moot in the books once
The old “show, don’t tell” rule applies here. It would not have meant much to the TV audience without them appearing, and inserting them into the crowded plots would have been tough. It also wouldn’t have done anything to further the story: and they had a lot of story to get through as it was without putting in plot for the sake of plot!
Errrr, is Alfie saying what I think he’s saying?
What is due to happen in TWoW happens this season… Right?
Well, Peter McGinley (Anguy) has deleted his Twitter after being bombarded with questions of a s5 appearance. That leaves only one BWB member left.
Andrew,
Of course, it could all have been a ruse and she was planned to appear in season 5 all along, and Fairley knew this, but had to be coy/evasive about it. We’ll find out soon.
Always wondered why they cast such a well known actor for the role and even more so now it appears he’s already gone!
A more important question is has Patrick Malahide similarly been ‘not contacted’ ? Again, it can happen off screen but that leech scene really needs tying up. Plus you know, I refuse to give up on Euron! 😛
Desdemona,
Actually, there is another explanation: the ruse started well before then. After all, by making those statements about Season 5, the audience had no idea what was going to happen in Seasons 3 & 4. And if it seemed like she was sincere, well, guess what: she’s an actress!
Moreover, this is the big issue that people missing LSH, BwB, etc., have yet to cogently address: just what would the have been doing in Season 5? There is no material for them in the books. The books are bloated plot wise (and story wise!): heck, editors should have trimmed them, and the TV show definitely had to do so. So, given that there was excessive material in the first place, and less than 1% of that material included them, what should B&W have done to force them into the narrative?
It can happen off-screen. However, I wonder how many people who haven’t been binge-watching the show remember that leech. It was two years ago now.
Luka Nieto,
I hope this is the case, anything to get David Bradley and Clive Russell back would be well worth the effort.
Sean C.,
I agree, unless, as someone in another thread suggested, they use
Wimsey,
Well, I’d answer that with: What are Brienne and Pod going to do in season 5? They are rejected by Sansa in the first episode and then what? We know they return to the Riverlands, but to what aim? We already saw them roaming around last season. If you include the BwB this season, at least you give Brienne a proper story conclusion, which she won’t have otherwise.
Wimsey,
If it’s not tied up then it will look sloppy. Will also make me think that D&D haven’t got a long-term plan.
Call it my TrashCanMan Supposition. In the great bloated book, The Stand, Trashy was hardly mentioned, hardly depicted directly, but he mattered immensely…he was the weirdo, the chaos factor, the fear factor…the ultimate unknown regarding the fate of many…even the main protagonist. And he really wasn’t a deus ex machina either. The reader knew he was there, and was coming eventually.
The same with the BwB. They are hardly mentioned but they are the fear and chaos factor in books 3-5 (in the riverlands and in KL)…and like I’ve mentioned many times, they have a role to play and will matter. You will acquiesce or suffer the same fate of many Freys!! 🙂
That is a completely separate question. After all, those two do not interact with the missing characters in question until their final pages in Brienne’s 8th and final chapter. And what makes you think that they’ll meet up with Sansa and be dismissed right away? If they are dismissed, what makes you think that they will give up on getting her out of the Vale?
As most of the audience has forgotten this loose-thread by now, that would not be the case. People cannot remember major socioeconomic issues that happen in the spring during autumn elections: why in the world would they remember trivial details about a TV show two years later?
Wimsey,
But, as members of it themselves, D&D are well aware of the book fanbase. They will address the leeches when that storyline has an impact on the main characters again. People do not have such short memories (as someone pointed out above, the collective intelligence of this audience is higher than average); but if they do, all they need to do is watch the first two minutes of the episode in which these characters are reintroduced. Other shows I have watched on “lesser” networks have brought back characters and storylines after 4 seasons. It’s not that big a deal, especially for this show and audience. I have faith in D&D.
Edit: Great example, HB!
Wimsey,
Well if you’re happy to let standards slip then fair enough. I think a great show shouldn’t neglect the smaller details that contribute to it’s quality.
I must admit, I barely remember them coming up. A quick search of my ebook shows that people do discuss them around Jaime and Brienne a handful of times, although neither seems to take the Brotherhood (which itself is never named!) very seriously even if others do worry about them. I cannot find them in any of the Cersei chapters (searching for “Brotherhood,” “Beric,” “Dondarion” and “Thoros”), so they received scant attention there. (There are 29 references in total to them in the Crows book: so, it’s not up there with finding Sansa or framing Margaery!)
But, regardless, this is television: things must be shown: the names won’t mean anything to most of the viewers. And if they are going to be shown, then they have to further the plot and they have to further the story for at least one lead character. I’m just not sure how that could have been done: just showing them to add “fear” would be unnecessary (they’ve got plenty of other scary things) and probably just irk the audience when it didn’t lead to anything.
🙂 I’m going through leech and Thoros withdrawal. I need my fix!
Wimsey,
GRRM is testing us. Be strong, my friend! Ours is the Fury!
Tristifer, I miss Anguy. Hope Tristifer makes an appearance this season.
I’m an academic: trust me, I know how short people’s memories are! If you give college seniors tests that they took their freshman year, they do no better than do people who never took the class: unless they go on to major in the topic. It’s been well-documented how “burning” sociopolitical issues in April are non-issues come elections in November.
Moreover, there really is no “collective” here: the vast majority of viewers of any TV show watch it, watch the next episode, watch the next episode, etc. They don’t discuss it, they don’t opine about it on the Internet, they don’t read about it on the Internet. Before you object, ask yourself: for how many of the TV shows you watch or books that you read do you do this? Then remember: that’s probably one or two more than most people. (This is why they do the “previously on SHOW X” on serial like this or Battlestar Galactica or Lost: it only takes small reminders to jog peoples’ memories, but those memories must be jogged.)
As for the book fan base, B&W know better than to cater too much to us. History has proved repeatedly that we (collectively) have terrible judgement: too many of us like the books for very different reasons than do the bulk of people watching the show, or even the bulk of book readers. You can say that it was just Tolkien fans or just Harry Potter fans or whatever you wish: but it will be a long time (if ever) before TV and Hollywood take fans’ opinions too seriously. (I would write “again” but I don’t know that they ever did.)
heh, small details contribute to a TV show’s quality in the same way that coins in your furniture contribute to your wealth! It’s the big details that cause shows to get that nice combination of big viewership and high critical acclaim.
OMG! I know many of you probably already seen this GoT trailer before but I just saw it and was laughing out loud… So funny!
My penis is my trademark.
tyjon,
Good point,
Red Wedding was probably the biggest event on the show (according to D&D themselves) but then its aftermath, survivors, people involved and responsible, were all abandoned!
Instead of characters and locations already invested in, we have to go to a new place, Dorne, which its so important that we havnt seen it in 4 years!
From a storytelling point of view this is illogical.
Wimsey,
So you are just mainly saying that hey average viewer doesnt know or care where Riverlands is or who was that guy that killed Robb or who was the guy with flaming sword etc, the average viewer wants to see the dragon girl naked and some cool and gruesome action scene and then maybe an orgy! Right?
And you defend making the show just appeal to this generally not caring, forgetful masses of audience?
Doesnt sound like a very academic stance!
Rygar,
Hey, did you hear that GRRM is writing a new BDSM book? It’s called 50 Shades of Greyjoy.
Don’t expect a happy ending.
🙂
Arthur,
People who make youtube videos really know which images to pick for their thumbnails don’t they? That Emilia…
Hmmm…given your stated profession and my experience with its members, I am not surprised that this is your attitude. My experience is atypical, I’m sure. 😉
That said, it appears that you basically agree with my premise that memory length doesn’t matter as the showrunners use the “Previously on” segment to reacquaint viewers with the storylines covered in the following episode. Short or long, viewers’ memories are jogged. The question of memory length, then, becomes academic (A-haaaaaa! Get it?).
As a series of books and/or tv shows, it is my experience that this particular story seems to get a lot more discussion than the average, both on and off of the Internet. Really, I am struggling to come up with a valid comparison. What other epic series of books has been turned into one of the (if not THE) biggest television experiences in history? Comparisons to such works turned into films have limited utility. And I would also argue that there is a collective intelligence in the community of GoT watchers as GoT is one of the most complex stories ever told. And I happen to think that SF/Fantasy readers in general possess higher-than-average intelligence. Although I had an American Literature professor once tell me that SF/Fantasy was not a valid topic for me to focus on in his Modern American Literature class, so I may be dead wrong.
As for my point about D&D being members of the book fanbase: in their interviews, D&D seem to respect the source material as fans, not just adapters. They understand the readers’ love for some of the tertiary characters, but not to the detriment of the adaptation. Of course they’re not going to listen to every whiney Moon Boy lover if the lunar one in particular will not serve a purpose going forward. But they are also going to keep the possible later appearance of a LSH-type character close to the vest until the time that either 1) she re-enters the story in a meaningful way, or 2) her storyline passes her character’s usefulness to the story as a whole and she is jettisoned from the adaptation. I would expect nothing less from film professionals who also have an intimate connection to this work as a long-running and unfinishedstory in another medium. In short, they are doing their jobs, but with a heart. (Happy Valentine’s Day, all!)
I believe that we agree more than we disagree, my black-robed and betasseled friend! Love to read your analyses. They break up the penis chatter from Rygar. Cheers!
Voice of Reason,
But think, now we got more people of color, and sand snakes aswell!
Voice of Reason,
We will see i guess.
Not a chance. D&D seem to hate the Riverlands and its storylines.
Tatters,
Im all for diversity and equal rights in Westros!
Turncloak,
So she just took a note and learned how to do it on her own?
Lets see if it even happens as you and others suggest.
I completely agree with all this. I wish more people could look at the adaption from this rather than blaming every change on D&D personal preference for different characters and plots.
We will get back to the riverlands when something actually happens there. It might not be until season 6.
I’ve always considered the Riverlands element as just symbolic of the nobles “fighting over trifles” while remaining ignorant of the massive shitload about to be dropped from above and showing the devastation and effect on the small folk being caught up the collateral damage. Important to the story as setting the backdrop in the middle of the story but it may not be any more significant than bringing into focus the main players’ ignorance of “Winter is Coming” in the great scheme of things…
…at least not until major events converge on central and southern Westeros later as the signs suggest.
I hope they managed to do a good job with Theon’s arc, even though it looks like it could be completely different from the books (which, in this case, is bad).
This is an example of poor writing or at least bad planning ahead. Why introduce them if you don’t plan on using them??? I understand that without Lady Stoneheart they are not that important, but then why introduce them in the show at all?? I don’t buy the resurrection idea, they could have had Melissandre do it somehow and I don’t even think that it will be used again (as many do about some unnamed character). They spent a lot of time on this arc, they alsa had the Blackfish…. time that could have been used for Dorne for example if they really want to expand their part or why not all the foreshadowing that’s so masterfully done in the books?
D&D have known the whole ‘broad stroke’ story for a long long time.
They had discussions with George before season 1 about the whole story.
Before season 2 David and Dan were in Santa Fe for like a week for a long meeting.
The before season 3 David, Dan and Bryan were in Santa Fe for , it seems a set of long meetings. This must have been an interesting one because they may have been talking to GRRM about where they were taking things.
Must have been some discussions before season 4 because we have that one interview where George seems a little concerned about not getting two seasons out of Feast and Dance and where he mentioned the movie deal.
At comic con he made clear “the books were the books and the show was the show” , it was not clear if that a rationalization on his part.
Desdemona,
How do you know Brienne won’t have a proper story conclusion this season without the BwB? We don’t know what happens to her in TWOW or what D&D may cook up on their own. D&D are not stupid. They won’t have Brienne roaming around the Riverlands for a whole season and not even have a climax or a cliffhanger.
Wimsey,
To be fair, there is evidence of Brienne and Pod in the Riverlands. The trailer shows them galloping on horses, passing by an inn, in a place that could only be the Riverlands. Well, I guess it could be the Crownlands or the North but… my point is, it’s Ireland. Lots of trees and vegetation. The Vale is Iceland.
Wimsey,
If we’re using that as an analogy, a lot of people enjoy the surprise of finding money they didn’t realise they had either down the side of their sofa or finding a £5 (insert your own countries’ equivalent!) on the street. Even though it’s not as much as the amount you know you’ve got in your bank account, it still has value (psychologically) even if it’s not a massive amount monetarily 🙂
TheTouchOfFrost,
Excellent analogy! 😀
Really? Only 50….? I thought it’d swelled to 1,000 Shades and 1. GRRM always does things bigger, better, nastier, nicer, hotter, colder….. until his typewriter bleeds. That’s the kinda guy the man is.
Don’t forget to watch out for his alternative history of Targaryens and their dragons. According to rumour, it’s entitled “Burn, Baby, Burn (The Cold Facts, Jack)”. It’s one of those hommage things, written from the perspective of a pyromancer named Spitflame (son of Spitfire, son of Phelmfyre….. You know how it goes).
Alfie Allen’s signing autographs with a little dick? There is nothing left to be said apart from, we kinda knew that already. Mind you, as he’s Ironborn, sooner or later, would it not rust away….? And not thru use.
And so to the BwB….. No Beric? Passing his ‘gift’ on, does it really need to be on-screen? The outcome ought to be shown. Think Checkov’s Gun.
But hold, there is more. BwB itself, we’ve seen them, we spent time with them. Another Checkov’s Gun.
Jaime heading to another part of the map, in the opposite direction to where he ought to be going, also changes Brienne’s arc. (Mustn’t lose Pod here.) She must intersect with BwB during the season. Why? D&D’d have her aimlessly wandering here and there with no resolution? DUMB! Yet another Checkov’s Gun.
Add Blackish to the mix as well. Last seen, heading outside for a piss… Damn long time for a piss, eh? Or just a bad case of piss-poor booze served up by House Grumpy causing…. Hmmmm? Wasn’t anyone else affected?
Could you include….? Yet one more Checkov’s Gun?
The arsenal is getting more full with these, and they must go off sometime.
Sean C.,
although, Mel may think that
because Thoros told her so. And if she does believe it,
dee,
Unless…she is very old, so she could secretly be
DUH DUH DUN! 😉
shoutout for gemma jackson !!
hats off to a genius in production design
she is the one who set the stones in place to how we see GOT today the entire look of the show is what basically gemma set up
and now fortitude this woman is a genius just stunning to watch the show . believe me if u havent watched fortitude ur missing something good in this age when every other show is s h i t
This is going to be a pessimistic post, so if you don’t like that kind of thing, you’re better off just not reading it.
I think the show’s legacy is troubled. Like, of course it’ll be remembered for being an incredible production, and all of the feats it’s accomplished, etc. but I don’t think it’ll age well.
The show is starting to feel messy. Storylines leading nowhere, characters disappearing, characterisation feeling tacked on. The point at which they decided to abandon half of the narrative they had been building up is almost visible. The Brotherhood disappearing, all the establishment of the Iron Islands being abandoned, Gendry’s journey into the waves, Tyrion’s Tysha foreshadowing leading nowhere, Asha’s truly ridiculous season 4 arc, Shae’s nonsensical flip, the season 4 Craster filler (yes, it was filler).
Season 5 is make or break for me. And frankly, with season 5 being based on books 4 and 5 which demand subtlety and intrigue more than any of the others, I just don’t see it working.
This is NOT the last season. This year we will have Bravos, Pentos, Volantis, North,Dorne and next year Riverlands and Iron Islands.
Everything is fine. Relax !
Andrew,
You’re probably right. They probably had planned to tell some stories which now they consider kind of dispensable like Rikkon plotline, for example and the whole Stoneheart scene. If they have had the “conversation” with GRRM before the show started, I believe they would have taken the show’s story much more straight to point.
On the other hand, I believe when D&D planned to adapt ASoIaF they expected that George would have definitely finished the novels at this point.
I think you raise a good point
Forgot to mention Orsons beetles
The shows done very very well in terms of shock value etc, but it is lacking the consistency of say Breaking Bad, where a season or even in he 3rd last episode later they could put in new footage from a previous point in time to further articulate a theme or flesh out an arc.
And this was the case to they very last episode
This is perhaps the case because they are getting tired and aiming for 7-8 seasons. They could properly flesh it all out perhaps if there was 9-10 seasons.
The ASOIF books have done this very well thanks to GRRM inserting foreshadowing and importantly the prophecies etc. The showrunners erred significantly IMO by omitting flashbacks from season 1-4. They are doing it now but it may be too late, ToJ should have been in season 1 for example, and just put the Tysha discussion from S1 in the “previously” part of S4E8 and then have Jaimie and Tyrion discuss Tysha instead of Orson and his beetles and voila we have a proper S4E10.
Even if we don’t see Tysha in the show it makes more sense as a reason to go up there and Tywin can go back into Tytos behaviour and his belief of Tysha as Tytos mistress MkII etc
It may all be loosely salvageable via Bran but while I can understand needing to slow his arc down, this would have been perfect opportunity to flesh out the past which affects the present in terms of the show
As for BwB, I am wondering if it is a practical budget issue, eg focus on Dorne in S5 and then wind up the RL in S6
@ chriss
Many of the storylines in books 4 & 5 look to be leading nowhere too though. In some ways I wish GRRM had stuck to the main arcs only with ASOI&F and given us shorter books to end the series within a realistic likelihood of me still being alive to read them.
A sister volume with all the other stories which go off an an apparent tangent could have been a follow up so we know whatever happened to so and so. But then again unless he gets his writing arse in gear we may never know who/what really is important.
Pablo Meireles – I agree, and the fact that GRRM admits he abandoned his original draft plans for Feast/ Dance one third gone show he is liable to write himself into a corner and/or add new things that he has to drastically reconsider where all the components fit in – and he may well have informed D&D something very different in 2008 to what he’d be telling them now.
Ashara D,
Not completely ridiculous as there’s theories that she’s the daughter of Shiera Seastar and Bloodraven so would have Targ blood in her with them both being Great Bastards.
Chriss,
I don’t think it’s really fair to be freaking out about this stuff yet.
It’s a longshot but we could see Gendry in Sansa’s storyline. Might just be that I like the idea of him replacing Mya Stone. One of Robert’s bastards for another!
That or he’ll peg up at the wall. They need a new blacksmith and maybe the protection he gets from taking the black is appealing to him?
Andrew,
I think you’re right and that they’ve been re-working a LOT of plotlines now that they know the full story.
Hence the K rakens daughter getting a shaggy dog tale in Season 4. I think they originally planned something much bigger for her but then learned it wasnt needed.
Hodor’s Bastard,
+1 for trashcan man reference
Not bringing Richard Dormer back is just one of many examples of how D&D have quickly been destroying this shows credibility since last season. It’s a shame.
The simple way to remind, strike fear and remind viewers who have not seen the BwB for 2 seasons is
I’m gettin sick and tired of people saying d n d r ruining the shows credibility or there ruining the story . No one has no idea what’s goin on this season with anybody except dany , and that will be diffrent . The change with the hound and Briene was way better than the hound getting injured in the books . I guarntee will see Ls this year and by the end of the story I’ll bet will see other charectors to , the last few seasons everyone could geuss how it would go all d n d r doing is giving book readers surprises as well as the people who don’t read. So far the adaption has been brilliant , it’s by far the best show ever , it’s so deep of a story and the show isn’t gonna talk about the brotherhood every season if there out of the story , they don’t do that every single scene in the show is significant to forshadowing future events, does anyone else watch it??? You book purists make me sick , I guarntee season 5 will
Be better than a feast for Crows to read ? I already know it’s gonna be way more enjoyable , and if stoneheart gets cut why don’t fairly just say that , she dances around the question so people don’t see her in public and attack her with hype about it . Now Richard former what r they gonna pay him 10,000 to die for 2 minutes and fly him out to do it. Now if thoros ain’t in it I get it but I’m sick of all the hating when you just can’t admit it that your gonna enjoy this season . Best adaption ever and I for one watched the show before I got into the books and had a hard time goin forward because I didn’t wanna spoil the show . You close minded book purists need to get a life or go read outlander or something
Grand maester giz,
Can’t tell if you’re trolling or not. Please enlighten me?
With this I can agree. I think it’s obvious there was a change of plans between Seasons 3 and 4. Yara’s mission was hyped up quite a bit in 3×10. I sincerely doubt it was only meant to amount to 1 scene next season. Dempsie’s cast status is also a bit fishy, as if they had something more in mind down the line, but then dropped it. Whether LS also belongs to this category, I don’t know.
Syrio Fo-real,
+1, regardless of Wimsey’s need for main character proximity. I especially like your “Fevre dream” reference.
And in the book I loved the moutain feeding hote himself but that woulda took away from arya and Tywin and that was just as enjoyable last year I couldn’t read past the vipor fight cause that happened to be the next episode on and I was soooooo happy I watched it before I read it the way I felt after that episode was awesome I remember yelling I would pay 1000 dollars to see something that made me feel like that again it was awesome my house was jumping around and screaming . It was a great memory and you book purists just don’t get it . Nothing on tv comes close to got, I just started watching the walking dead and it sucks , the Knicks cool but no show offers what got has and that’s what makes it what it is today
You do know he doesn’t appear in the books either after that point? The entirety of BwB had almost zero material in the last two books. I guess D&D could invent something to fill up a season, though they would be accused of fan fiction again. Sigh.
Voice of Reason,
No,they don’t,they don’t even care for the Boltons after they have been nicely set up to be the major antagonists last season,the only ones they care are still the Starks,Lannisters and Dany,that’s the truth .
I guess he resurrected it, so to speak, I just checked. Did he reply to any of the questions before with an “I can’t say”? Or just ignore them?
What a waste. Dormer was one of the best parts of season 3.
Grand maester giz,
Ah ok. Confirmed.
“The Fallen” Roundtable from the Season 4 Blu-Ray/DVD is up on YouTube. Moderated by Bryan Cogman, it features Pedro Pascal, Mark Stanley, Rose Leslie, Charles Dance, Jack Gleeson, Thomas Brodie-Sangster, and Sibel Kekilli.
It’s pretty fantastic. A lot of the stories that the actors cover have been told elsewhere in some form, but getting to see them all in one place, reminiscing, is a hell of a lot of fun.
Jared,
Agh, I want to watch it, but I also want to wait for the BluRay! I guess I can watch them twice… They should leak exclusive extras that you only get when buying the BluRay from certain shops, those I’m interested in. These not so much, as I’ll eventualy watch them when the BluRay gets released.
I fear this show is going to finish with a tremendous amount of plot holes and loose ends because of poor planning by Benioff and Weiss. This is a perfect example. I doubt you will get closure for these characters and this arc. They’re just gone. My optimism for a season 6 appearance is lower than some of you. I doubt it.
And I think this occurred because for some strange reason Benioff and Weiss desire 7 seasons. I don’t understand that, but that preference stands. As a result they have to speed things up, move things, and condense or outright omit plots. Their choice, but the dreaded “butterfly effect” George RR Martin warned them and the fans, has begun to rear it’s head.
It’s understandable that Riverlands stuff is cut for now. Eventually loose ends will need to be tied up though. We need to see if the Tullys are going to get Riverrun back. We need to see the inevitable downfall of house Frey.
I wish people would stop saying that if D&D cut something it must be because they hate it. Part of making television shows and movies is cutting things for time and pacing. Show runners and directors are usually sad to do it, not gleeful. I doubt they hate the Riverlands or Stannis or whatever else disgruntled fans think they hate.
Jesterr223456,
I’m not saying it as a book purist (though I believe the show would be vastly improved if they were to follow the books exact) however I am saying it as a fan of the show as a separate thing. D&D have been going down the wrong path since last season, pandering to the wrong audiences with dumbed down content and poor writing, something that shouldn’t be in this show. Not showing the Brotherhood is a huge continuity error for the show.
Xanth,
The fact that you think following the books exactly would make for a good adaptation or a good TV show pretty much discredits your opinion on the matter of adaptations, in my personal view. You know who wouldn’t agree with you at all? George R.R. Martin.
It’s not a continuity error. Don’t make stuff up. That’s not what a continuity error IS. They were supporting characters and the fulfilled their purpose. Nobody who only watches the show is asking where they are. They may be interested in them coming back, but they aren’t confused about their absence.
They didn’t suddenly disappear from the plot. They were never protagonists, we were never following their exploits. Main characters met them, then moved on; so we didn’t see them after that (just as in the books, by the way; they had a couple of incredibly small scenes after Arya escaped, in two and a half enormous books.) That’s how it works. No one is confused about that but book reader purists (those with bad memory especially; becuase, I ask you, what would you have them do for seasons? Where’s the material? Or you just want a cameo? Also, Dondarrion wouldn’t be back at all, if they were “exact” to the books as you say.)
raq,
Maybe
was in their plan back then but even without her, the Brotherhood still played a big role in Arya’s and the Hounds story, if it weren’t for them they would have NEVER met, they played their part and that’s it, like so many other characters in the show. We don’t need to see them again, because there’s no point in it unless they meet another major character again.
Xanth:
Beric are not in the last books. What continuity error are you talking about?
And actually season 4 is the best season by far.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I’m not trolling I just read every book and watched each episode a bunch of times , I was sick for a year with an enlarged spleen , and game of thrones , got me threw it I went from the show to the books back to the show and back to the books I read every comment about the last two seasons and it fairleys last interview she refused to comment on if she was in or not in this season , and said I can’t confirm it deny anything untill the seasons over , matter fact it’s on one of the old posts for this website. Go look into everything and tell me there Not hiding all of Brienes story this year ? No one has one clue all the bonus material shows nothing , fairleys won’t say stoneheart is not in it but will confirm cateyln is not , it’s way too big to ignore that was one of my favorite chapters reading it . And like many fans the idea intrigues them , why would they cut it ?
Ok book readers r u saying in winds that ls won’t meet one of her children again? If you think no she won’t than ok maybe she’s cut but that’s not the case
Grand maester giz,
It’s just the way you were presenting your arguments was quite aggressive and confrontational. If English isn’t your first language then that’s understandable but there’s no need to be forceful with your opinions. Everyone here is pretty open to eachothers viewpoints without the sledgehammer style!
Wasn’t talking about the LS thing but as you mentioned it, I think she’s gone. Ideally I would have liked her in and I guess there is still a faint hope she’ll turn up but I can deal with the change. My issue is that they’re changing a lot of things now and I don’t believe all of them are necessary. I’m all for adaptions but when you begin to stray too far from the source material then it’s no longer an adaption, you’re creating something different. For me, this season will probably confirm whether the show is doing that or not. I still think if they had pushed the studios to 8 seasons instead of 7 then they could have comfortably got everything in and done what they are already doing with more detail. Have a horrible feeling the remaining seasons are going to feel very rushed. Then again, I still can’t believe GRRM is going to tie everything up in the books with just two more.
Xanth,
Just please tell me what are you talking about??
Did you read book? Beric Dondarrion was last seen in ASOS.
If they want to introduce LSH, they don’t need him, only Thoros.
D&D have quickly been destroying this shows credibility? What??? S4 wast the best season so far. Only annoying book purist don’t like S4.
Only person who is destroying this story is GRRM himself, besause of AFFC and ADWD.
Do you realize how much story they need to tell? They can’t have Dorne, Iron Island, Bravos, Riverland, Volantis, Meereen, KL, Pentos, North, Wall, Vale in just one season.
Do you understand that? Apparently don’t.
TheTouchOfFrost,
It’s not confirmed that’s it’s only seven , seven are confirmed so far ? I heard an interview where Dan said they needed atleast 7. I’m from Philadelphia and English is my first language , people aren’t as polite where I’m at . You say she’s out , I say she’s the biggest surprise of the season . We shall see
mau,
I agree whole heartedly and think next season they’ll make an amazing set for the iron born-( where the kraken bones are) I’m still hoping for a big name euron casting one day – Gary old man would be great
Grand maester giz,
Pretty sure it’s been confirmed as 7 from what people have been saying here on the forums. I hope I’m wrong and it hasn’t as think they need more myself.
I’m from England so a firm believer of the ‘manners maketh man’ philosophy. So, guess our rival schools clash! 😛
I’d be happy if she did turn up but, sadly, think that ship has sailed.
Why not just increase the number of seasons so these storylines can be put in?
We need Gemma Jackson back! And fast! She set the tone and look of the show, I would like to have her back to shepperd the show through its next seasons!
Dogcheese,
DD are getting tired and want to move on to other projects I’m sure hbo wants more seasons same with g rrm they really wanted to do the show for season 3 nd now they are like ok guess we need to finish too. Im still praying for movies to finish the final battles and all out war. Seven seasons is not enough for what will probably be 8books.
Eurio,
I wouldn’t think that they would get tired of making more money.
Dogcheese,
Its really time consuming and they want to create new things they are always talking bout their wives hating them and how they can’t do an extra episode they are abroad half the year
If Beric’s not back in the show, and if the BwB is diminished, then you should blame it on GRRM. I have always hated LS because I thought that she ruined the BwB story line (not to mention cheapened the RW).
Dogcheese,
Whether you want to believe it or not, this show has a budget. If it goes beyond season 7, the actors’ salaries will go way up, that is if they could even get new deals negotiated with all of them. The VFX cost is likely to increase exponentially too. And yes, I’m sure D&D and many of the top actors do want to have an end in sight. Actors get tired of playing the same character after a while. I think you can already start to see that with Kit Harrington. Not that they don’t give it their all, just that creatively, they are bored. They don’t have the benefit of pulling a GRRM and taking a year or two off and working whenever they feel like it.
wycoff,
Never. It’s all D&D’s fault. Everything. Those hacks have ruined ASOIAF forever. A decade from now, the show will be remembered as shit because they didn’t bring back Beric and The Brotherhood in season 4 and they didn’t mention Tysha or have Littlefinger say ‘only Cat’!
Someone should berate GRRM for the continuity error in his books. Benjen Stark was a major character who he just forgot about after the first book. And no, the books not being finished yet is not a valid excuse. We all know that it is too late for him to bring Benjen back into the story. I fear that because of this, the books will not age well.
Not to mention Rickon Stark, Osha, Stonesnake, Shagga son of Dolf, Bronn,…..
GRRM have 1000 loose ends, D&D only few, and they will tie up all of them.
D&D’s loose ends:
– kevan lannister – tied up(S5)
jaqen h’ghar – same
illyrio mopatis – same
lancel lannister – same
– walder frey – s6
edmure tully – s6
blackfish – s6
BwB – s5 or s6 or they will report all of them died
Greatjon Umber = Wyman Manderly – s5?
GRRM’s loose ends:
– countless
mau,
To be fair if we’re considering characters who haven’t beeen seen for over a season. D&D also have;
Gendry
Balon Greyjoy
Yara Greyjoy
Ilyn Payne
Rickon
Osha
Nymeria
Qaithe
Khal Pono
Khal Jhago
Neds bones.
Could even say Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah are not completely out of it. (mainly because I think it would a useful tool to have Xaro survive by killing and eating Doreah until he gets let out of the vault to show how ruthless he is and then leading an army from Qarth to join the siege of Mereen which would be in line with the books and provide the show with a familiar character to dislike and who would have an issue with Dany which would save a lot of time creating background for a new character to lead the siege! But….that’s just me fantasy writing!)
Add those to the ones you’ve already mentioned and they’ve got quite a job on their hands too.
GRRM will be fine. He’ll take as long and as many books as he like to tie things up now the show is going to pass them by. The show is the realy worry as I think some of the things they are leaving out are things that would have really gone over well with audience and created a greater depth for the show. As I say, I think eight seasons should do it so it would be a shame if they stuck rigidly to 7 when I don’t think it would be much more effort ( time ,money or personal wise) to have 8. I guess we shall see how it pans out.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I dont think budget is an issue for Hbo for actor salaries. Atleast not as big as DD make it out to be. Game of thrones is the biggest show hbo has ever had the merchandising off of it must be pretty good for them too. There are video games based on it, they release old episodes on imax! And by the end of seven seasons i only expect dany jon and tyrion and sansa to be alive out of potential actors who could want a big salary. If they want they cant renegotiate now to push for eight seasons if the creators say they can do 8. I think DD simply want to finish this story as soon as possible maybe they dont feel confident in adapting it without the books. They are the ones who are pushing for the least amount of seasons more than anyone else.
mau,
Season 4 was not the best season by far, it was the worst, and not because of book changes, because the writing was terrible.
And i’m talking about show Beric not book Beric as the show and the books are clearly two distinct things. The problem is that the quality of writing for the show was great the first three seasons and has gone massively down hill.
Crabber’s Son,
How can you know that D&D are the only ones pushing for 7 seasons? And even if they are, it is their show and their lives. Had GRRM finished the damn books already and the final books were masterpieces, 8 or 9 seasons would be possible. But as is, George won’t finish the books until 2020-2021, at the earliest, and that is if he even does finish them.
Xanth,
Well, that’s just like, your opinion, man. I thought it was the second best season, after season one, and that the writing was better than ever. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, it’s just that the negative ones are always spoken the loudest and repeated as if they are fact.
Yara Greyjoy was seen last season. And the two khals were only mentioned by name in season 2. I wouldn’t consider it a plot hole if we never see them. I believe that D&D have a better chance to clean up their loose ends in three seasons than Martin has to clean up his loose ends in two books.
I posted this in one of the more recent articles’ comment sections but since this one’s getting more comments I’ll put it here too.
https://www.facebook.com/scottishfield/posts/10153155189156162
An interview with Clive Russell, the Blackfish, is forthcoming.
So… we’re definitely getting LSH at the end of the season. No doubt about it. Lock it in!
I disagree. Some of the best scenes were in S4.
Not only big scenes, but scenes with Theon, Oberyn, Olenna, Mance Rayder, Arya and Hound,…. Small, beautifully written scenes…
Book and show Beric? If there isn’t LSH there is no need for him. They can just report he died off screen, or he can appear in s6 or even s7. If there is LSH, then he already died
simple as that
Young Dragon,
She was but it was pretty much a cameo and we have no idea what she’s up to now. Thjey are loose ends but I agree not critical..well maybe one might be (book readers will know what I mean).
Clear them up but clear them up in a satisfying manner? I personally think George will tie things up a lot better which isn’t a knock on the show but he’s had more time and books are a better medium for more information. I’m going to be a bit disappointed at no Euron or Faegon if it comes to pass as I think the show has included all major plot points in some form up to this point …with the possible exception of LS. But if they’ve included Dorne which I think is just as disposable as the Iron Islands and less so than the Griffs then who knows.
my answers are black
I agree that books are better medium for information, but let’s be honest, GRRM will never finish this story.
I believe that he will aloud someone else to finish them, after his death.
I know he said that he will burn them, but that is normal answer when you ask people: “Oh, what are you planing to do when you diex?”
Greenjones,
This is apparently the extent of what he told them.
https://twitter.com/loubgray/status/566265456978587648
as I said. s6. maybe even s5.
mau,
I think s5.
I think season 4 isnt the one with the worst writing rather the worst directing. Dreadfort scene wasnt bad cuz of the writing necessarily it just looked bad and then the random escape didnt make sense visually. The wights and jojen randomly going from being on his back to his stomach to his back again facing the other way was pretty bad too. Jaime raping cersei…..the one eyed raven with two eyes and just being an old man. There was just a lot that bothered me that probably didnt bother most people because they dont notice some things idk.
Greenjones,
I don’t want to read too much into that, but if it’s a direct quote, then it’s pretty strongly worded. Not the “they tell me I’ll be back later on” that we get from Joe Dempsie or David Bradley, or a “I think he’s still alive out there”.
Actually, that isn’t what happened. For one thing, they knew that things important in, say, the 6th movie needed to be introduced in the 6th movie, even if it was a re-introduction. Although there were a lot of Harry Potter fans, they still were a small fraction of the audience. They knew that most people would be watching it as if it were James Bond or some other series, and just taking it one movie at a time.
For another thing, Kloves and Heymen worked pretty closely with Rowling. They were pretty shrewd readers of the books, and they checked with Rowling about whether some changes might cause problems for people paying attention later. She kept them on course: and the few “continuity” errors that did happen went unnoticed by the critics and (presumably) the main audience.
The big problem for the first two movies was the director, Chris Columbus. He has no sense of story whatsoever, and he basically rewrote Kloves script to match… the book! Rowling wrote a charming novel, but a horrible script. That is not surprising: the next work that is both a good novel AND a good script will be the first such beast! That’s a big reason why audience reaction to the first two films was so tepid compared to, say, Lord of the Rings, or even the 2nd two Harry Potter films. And it really hurt the box office, too: none of the films sold more than 80% of the first film’s tickets, which means that about one viewer in five was so turned off by the film that they never came back.
That written, a LOT of Harry Potter fans were convinced that, say, leaving Cedric Diggory out of the third film meant that the character would not be in the 4th film, or that because Bellatrix Lestrange wasn’t in the 4th film, the character would not be in the series. However, both were introduced when they became relevant and the audience had no problems with it. Similarly, a lot of Harry Potter fans were convinced that cut characters and cut plot details from the early films were going to be important in the final stories: but they never were. Heck, the books themselves introduced concepts like Horcruxes and Hallows in the last two books, and nobody had problems with them. Audiences take things as they come; and when sequels do recycle things, they really have to assume that they are introducing things again.
I do hope they give the Blackfish something to do. Don’t think we’ll see him in season 5, but I hope he’s back in season 6 to fulfill whatever the character’s role will be in TWOW.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I don’t know quite how to phrase this nicely, but Kit Harrington is his generations Orlando Bloom. Pretty face, lovely hair, but you would not call either the second coming of Sir Laurence Olivier.
I think he’s reasonably savvy to not give up such a meal ticket when his performances elsewhere have hardly set the world on fire.
It cannot be a plot hole if no part of the plot depends on their being present. Moreover, if they keep things as in the books (which I expect that they will), then these names are not necessary: a Dothraki Horde will do just fine. The viewers know what the Dothraki are, and they don’t need to know individual Khals to follow what is happening.
I am not a book purist but I have read, reread, and thouroughly enjoyed this story in both mediums. I see why the purists get upset at times when part of ASoIaF works so well and is omitted from the show but some of the complaints are silly. This is a split fanbase. Books and Show. Many book fans have dedicated a lot of time waiting and dissecting these books so when a part of the story or a character they really enjoyed from the books doesn’t make it onto GoT, it is upsetting. I miss some things from the books that were cut from GoT but I still love the show. I don’t think DD are ruining anything, they are delivering a great product based off of HBO and pirated view stats alone. Which leads me to another reason the book purist hate changes.
Back before the show came out there was a ASoIaF fanbase. These people were going to watch the show because they loved the books. DD knew this and gave some extra attention to them via message boards in other forums of the fandom and interviews, even encouraged casting advice. Now, 5 years later, the show fandom is huge, I would guess it is much larger than the book fandom now. So they dont get the exclusive inside scoop anymore and everything is kept very secret regarding the show because of spoilers. Is this part of where the anger comes from?
Sorry for my ramblings. I’m just a fan riding the train home and had time to kill but I think some of what I say makes sense.
Good day
Crabber’s Son,
I would agree that the directing wasn’t as strong, particularly compared to season 3. Only 3 episodes stood out to me: ‘Watchers On The Wall’,’Two Swords’, and ‘The Lion And The Rose’.
Maybe. But he can interact somehow with Sansa, if that will happen in TWOW.
If I recall, she said she will have scenes with familiar faces. We know about Brienne and Pod, but maybe that’s not all.
I wouldn’t even bet on him having any major sort of role in the books. I know that Blackfish has a fan-club here, but he’s basically been an incidental character in the books. It’s difficult to imagine him having too big an effect on any of the protagonists in Winter, particularly if the story is what the early chapters suggest it is going to be.
Wimsey,
I’m not saying he’s gonna become any sort of protagonist. But he escaped for something. GRRM himself described it as one of the many Chevok’s guns he had planted in the last few books, if I remember correctly. Still, will his role be significant enough (or TV-friendly enough) to make it to the show? Now, that is the question.
One thing we do need to remember in this is that fan bases are a tiny fraction of audiences. A classic case is Doctor Who. Doctor Who’s fan base was bigger than ever in the mid-late 1980’s: but the show’s ratings in the UK were at an historical low. Why? 10’s of thousands of fans don’t affect ratings measured in the millions. (An attempt to bring it back in the 1990’s failed despite heavy interactions with the fandom, too.) The fans groused (and grouse!) endlessly about the revived show: but that has been a critical and commercial success.
Another classic case is Lord of the Rings. That obviously had a dedicated fandom, and the producers did a lot to promote the film within the fandom. When the first trailer was issued in early 2000, it attracted some news by getting nearly 2 million hits: and in 2000 that was impressive. And some skeptics predicted that this would be the entire audience for the film, which would have been an unmitigated disaster. Instead, the first film went on to sell more tickets in the US alone than copies of the books had been sold worldwide up to that point. (The books were nearly 50 years old, too!) Had all of the people who rushed to download that trailer (and some of you were among them, I bet: I certainly was!) stayed home, then the ticket sales would hardly have been different.
Every year, several TV shows and movies appear and become spectacularly successful despite having been invented from scratch. And when these shows or movies are adapted from books, insofar as most of the viewing audience is concerned, it is completely new. HBO’s big series get lots of people checking them out because they like cable TV series: and that almost certainly provided more of the initial audience than book readers did. (I fell into both camps, although I had not read the books in years and I was surprised just how much I had forgotten about them.) Had the books never been written, then the show would be doing just as well as it is.
Really? I don’t’ remember him listing Blackfish in that camp. I remember the wolves, the White Walkers, Jon’s mother and a couple of other things in that context.
Well, then I get to be surprised!
That’s not because of writing or directing, but because of budget. That scene could have been good if have lasted 20 minutes.
I remember they said they wanted a big action scene in the courtyard, but we ended with this. I don’t think that is such a great tragedy.
Battles of Robb Stark were off screen, Dany and her conquest was fast forward.
This with Yara wasn’t different. I don’t understand why that was such a big deal.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
The new directors for season 5 seem promising though. I think if the show looks great throughout I can ignore some story aspects being cut. I mean look at the harpy statue falling that might be the most well done shot ive seen on GOT.
There is a reason why they say that brevity is the soul of wit! Over-long scenes might be the #1 way to turn off audiences: at any rate, they certainly belong in the discussion for that dubious honor. One of the reasons why people like the show is that the pacing is brisk.
(This is one area that definitely distinguishes fans from normal viewers: fans of Doctor Who, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter always complain about things being “rushed” when they are well-paced: but they almost never complain when critics and the general public criticize something as being turgid; about the only exception is scenes involving boys and girls being, ahem, boys and girls: those scenes are always too long for fanboys! 🙂 )
mau,
Gendry – Could be anywhere
Balon Greyjoy – Do the consequences mean from Balon or Stannis?
Yara Greyjoy – Can you link to this If so I’ll be very happy but….
Ilyn Payne – Because Wilko Johnson has recovered from what they thought was terminal cancer and Ilyn is on Aryas list.
Rickon – Still needs tying up
Osha – Still need tying up
Qaithe – Still a loose end
Khal Pono – Name checked in both the first and second season, leading Drogo’s former Khalasar
Khal Jhago – Name checked in the second season
Neds bones – As far as I know they’re knocking around the Riverlands somewhere. Feel they still have a part to play.
Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah – Not seen either bodies. You know the rule…and even then they sometimes come back!
Forgot about Benjen too! Who knws what’s happened to Westero’s premier hide-and-seek champion!
My point is, the show has just as much work as the books to not leave any loose ends.
Don’t be so pessimistic! Just because he is fat and got a white beard doesn’t mean he’s on death’s door! Terry Pratchett has been diagnosed with Alzheimers for 8 years now and is still churning out quality work.
On Season 4, I think it was generally a good one. Although I was disappointed with the last episode due to not liking the Hound/Brienne meet up ( know I’m in the minority), the fireballs and the handling of the Tyrion/Tywin scene. Shame as the previous 3 or 4 episodes were outstanding. Glad Alex Graves isn’t back this season as I think he dropped the ball with a couple of important moments last time.
It’s interesting how D&D turned out to be pretty good directors! Both their episodes had great style and several beautiful sequences that relied primarily on visual storytelling: Hoster’s funeral, Small Council musical chairs, melting of Ice, Arya-Hound straight-out-of-a-Western saloon shoot-out and the subsequent riding off into the sunset/war-torn countryside. Actually, I hope other GoT directors take a cue from this approach and get somewhat bolder in the future. I do think GoT is a tad too conservative with its directorial and editing techniques.
I absolutely agree, but that scene was too short.
I think they needed 3 or 4 more minutes to flesh out that sequence.
But I will say this again. That was just one not so important scene in season with 345 scenes. It’s ridiculous to hate a whole season because of one scene.
It is just childish
.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Would you say your heart is made of stone?
TheTouchOfFrost,
In the Game of Owns interview with Bryan Cogman (or maybe it was in the A Cast of Kings interview?), he defended the attack on the Dreadfort (which he wrote) and argued it wasn’t just filler in terms of her character arc; he said there will be consequences for Yara’s decision to escape. That doesn’t sound like consequences with Stannis or anyone like that; that sounds like consequences her decision could have in the pride of the family. That points to Balon.
afeastfordances,
Mr Fixit,
Yeah, the episodes they directed turned out shockingly well. Especially the Hound’s fight scene at the Inn. That was better than most of the action scenes the more experienced directors put together.
mau,
Scenes should not go more than 5 minutes under most circumstances, and this was not an exception. The point was made: Theon was gone and Reek had taken over. After that, the scene needed to end so that the next story point could be made. Last season was telling the same story about love/hate relationships that the book told: and showing Reek as the fawning pet of the man who had tormented Ramsay fed that. The failed rescue scene gave us everything that we needed to understand that.
mariamb,
Don’t quote me on that, please (hence the “If I remember correctly” —I’m sure I heard that somewhere, but I may be misattributing it to GRRM.)
mau,
Luka Nieto,
Quaithe is still a loose end in my book. Seems weird to introduce her for such a minor role. I think she’ll have a bigger part to play in at least the books (some rumours that she’s Shiera Seastar which would make sense if her Bloodraven and Meslisandre were all working together for some reason.?!).
I thin Khal Pono could become important if they folow the books with what happens to Dany after this season.
The Golden Company have been mentioned too who could become important and I’m still clinging onto the fact that they mentioned Theon’s uncles in the first season that they’ll include them!
Speaking of Ironborn. I’d love to think that it would mean consequences from Balon or even that she wasn’t there to challenge a certain someone for rule of the Iron Islands after a certain incident but I think she’ll remain in the north and the consequences will be related to that. We shall see though.
That shot of The Hound in the doorway of the Inn did the character justice. Two Swords was the best of the season with that great western scene. I agree about the disappointing scenes of the season. Expecting good things from Michael Slovis.
TheTouchOfFrost,
There are more 100 times more “hypotheses” (to use the word very loosely!) about who Quaithe is than there are about who Jon’s parents are! Many are convinced she is Ashara Dayne. Other ideas include that Quaithe is Daeny’s mother, Melissandre’s mother, Missandei’s mother, Jenny of Oldstones, and probably every other woman named in passing. I seem to remember one person who thought that she was Arya who traveled back in time. (Of course, I seem to recall that particular poster being a good bet for getting off of parking tickets on insanity pleas!).
That written, Quaithe is not much of a loose end. She just provides cryptic prophesy that only becomes understandable after it comes to pass. At any rate, her small part in Season 2 was an end to itself: they obviously could do more with her, but it is not necessary. (If she does come back, then they will have to reintroduce her: the audience will have long since forgotten her by now.)
Khal Pono will not be important himself: the head of a Dothraki hoard (who could be any Khal) might become an important plot point, though, in both book and show. If the hoard is on the show, then whatever name they give will be new to the audience even if it was used before. People remember faces from TV shows, but not names. The fact that his name or Theon’s uncles names came up in the first season therefore does not mean anything regarding the audience’s expectations or understandings.
Sometimes. Would you say your hammer is made of rubber?
My soul is. 🙂
TheTouchOfFrost,
I don’t think of Quaithe as a loose end. I think that’s more of a book-reader thing. We know
. In terms of the show, it would be great to see her back, and one never knows, but if we don’t see her, again, the part she had to play in terms of Qarth was played.
I just irradiated my hands so that I could give you 5 thumbs up.
I do wonder if GRRM is going to use Quaithe as an “oracle” at some point to provide Daeny (and the reader) with otherwise unknowable facts.
Wimsey,
Technically she is a loose end because we don’t know what her purpose is; she is unresolved. She may have been designed this way but she’s still a loose end!
You really don’t have any faith in the general viewership of the show do you?! I’m pretty sure most would remember her as she was quite distinctive but if not, should the show pander to those who can’t handle something pretty basic? It’s a slippery slope.
While I absolutely appreciate the sentiment, that couldn’t have been good for your health. If there’s a next time, a simple “All Hail Nymeria of the Rhoynar” would suffice. 😉
While we’re talking about Quaithe, I was noticing on a rewatch of the show, when Jorah went to see her in Qarth, she mentioned she was painting symbols of protection on the person lying on her table, because they had to pass close to the Doom of Valyria. That’s the first time I’d caught that in the show. That’s way back in season 2, and it could mean absolutely nothing, but it leaped out at me.
Crabber’s Son,
That’s exactly wrong . Hbo doesn’t like to do tv shows with more than 6-7 seasons , that’s just they’re feeling on tv shows and d and d both said in interviews several times that they wanted to do atleast 7 seasons and hbo already confirmed season. 6 and 7 when most tv shows only sign one year in advance , most likely they’ll sign for season. 8 before season 6 . That 7 seasons is as of now assuming winds and dreams would be able to tie it all up early but based on there pacing we should get either 8 seasons or 7 with an extra ten episodes or end it with one movie or possibly a trilogy . They always said atleast 7, ive hear them say 7-8 about 6 months ago
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Interesting observation. The only person I can think who is relevant and claims to have travelled to Asshai and even sailed the Smoking Sea and walked the smoking ruins of Valyria is a certain Greyjoy. Wishful thinking on my part but would be a cool little detail if it did come to pass he was the chap on the table!
In that case, every character to whom they have spoken qualifies as a loose end! There was nothing indicating that she necessarily had a purpose beyond the purpose that she served in Season 2. (She did serve a purpose at that time.) As they started nothing with her, there aren’t any loose ends to resolve with her. Indeed, if the books do nothing more with her, then there are no loose ends: it might seem a little unsatisfactory, but as she is not one of the main characters, it would not affect the story one way or the other. She’s not some major gun hung on the wall like Jon’s mother or Nymeria or the Three Heads or the White Walkers. (This doesn’t mean that she won’t be an important plot point, of course: it’s just not as necessary that she become one, given how sparse her appearances have been.)
On the contrary, the problem is that you vastly overestimate how invested people are in the television shows that they watch. You do not remember comparable details from other TV shows that you watch: and if you try to argue that you do, then you are almost certainly fooling yourself. Alternatively, you might argue “but this is different TV.” No, it’s not, at least not for the vast majority of the viewers. Indeed, after binge-watching the four seasons over the last weeks, I was surprised at the number of things that I forgot: and that I no doubt will forget again before I binge watch next year! If I had not recalled all of the “Who Is Quaithe?” threads from 15 years ago, then I probably wouldn’t have remembered her appearance.
That’s why they run the “previously on Game of Thrones” (or “Downton Abbey” or “Lost” or any serial with over-arching plots): showing those key points or characters reintroduces them to the audience. Usually they reintroduce them again in that episode. They know perfectly well that most of the viewers do not re-enforce their memories by binge-watching or discussing these things online or anything like that. Sure, thousands do: but that means that millions don’t. Without that sort of reinforcement, people forget things. (Again, that is why college seniors do no better on tests that they took their freshman year than do people who never took that course: unless they majored in the topic, which means that they subsequently reinforced their memories.)
So, pander to the millions, not to the thousands: it’s the millions that are making this show popular, after all.
The person getting the tattoos was not sailing to Valyria, but around it. The tattoos were for luck/protection. Quaithe and Jorah don’t discuss it beyond that: that tacit impaction is that if you are sailing in that area, you want to be lucky! That is consistent with what is in the books when sailors speak of dreading sailing too close to Valyria. However, it was just a segue into the main part where Quaithe spills some relevant information to Jorah.
As for Asshai, it seems that people come and go from there fairly frequently. Products from there are mentioned as part of the “world babble” both in the book and on TV. Jorah mentions going there a couple of times in the first season on TV. Indeed, once upon a time it was considered an open question: why did Jorah want to take Daeny there? (However, in the last book he backs away from that, which seems to have nipped that in the bud.)
Can I just type AHNofR? It will save time.
I’m looking through you, where did you go?
I thought I knew you, what did I know?
You don’t look different, but you have changed
I’m looking through you, you’re not the same
You’re thinking of me, the same old way
You were above me, but not today
The only difference is you’re down there
I’m looking through you, and you’re nowhere
Song for Mel?
TheTouchOfFrost,
Typical
Xanth,
The best way to tell how someone is a book purist is when he says in a sentence he’s not a book purist. Don’t really care to respond to anymore of your arguments as i know it’s usual sycophant drivel .
Something for the, ahem, “idealists” who think a 100% translation from book to screen should have been attempted to read and inwardly digest
http://www.scriptmag.com/features/craft-features/adapting-a-book-into-a-screenplay
“Be aware that you will probably have to cut many supporting characters, subplots that don’t connect to your main storyline, and almost all of the description. Instead of two pages of character description, you only get two lines. Often, two or three different characters in a novel will be combined into ONE character in a screenplay. And what happens on the first page of the book may not be how you need to open the film. Try to nail the same tone that the original material had – as that is part of what built its fanbase and that tone needs to translate on film. But the real key to adapting a book to film or adapting someone’s true story – is FOCUS and knowing how and when to take poetic license. ”
I have seen alternative fan written screenplays for shows where people have disliked the adaptation enough to spend their time creating their own vision and usually they show a lack of understanding of the above. Maybe it would be a good exercise for the most outspoken critics to have a go at this and show the rest of us how it should be done while trying to keep in mind budget, actor availability, network interference, the restraints of time, what simply doesn’t work in a visual medium etc
Wimsey,
She may not be important but she is still a loose end as we don’t know who she is or what her purpose is/was. That to me is the very definition of being a loose end. It won’t impact on the show if she is left unresolved but she is still unresolved as a character.
The show became popular by not pandering to a certain audience. It did it’s own thing and was wildly successful. You dance with who brought you to the ball as they say. People enjoy shows on different levels, if they reintroduce a character and people don’t remember them then they will do one of two things a/ take it as is and continue watching b/ find out who it is. I’d rather a a minority of fans be mildly confused than what I think is the majority have their enjoyment ruined by being spoon fed. I honestly don’t think it’s a problem reintroducing characters, I mean all it takes is an acknowledgement from another character that they’ve featured before or some sort of reference and your away.
She said past it, so take it as you will. Either way it introduces The Doom and the ruins of Valyria into the show canon and that people travel there. I think it’s an interesting link if they decide to pick it up. All depends on whether they plan to introduce Euron or not I guess.
Jesterr223456,
Grow up. Calling someone a fat blob because they don’t write a book the exact way you want them to is very childish. Bear in mind, the show you enjoy wouldn’t exist without that “fat blob” so show some respect.
For whatever it’s worth, as a non-book reader (though one who has watched the series through several times and who recently pretty much sullied himself on the books), I don’t consider much of what’s been discussed here in the comments section to qualify as “loose ends,” particularly as it relates to Beric/Brotherhood Without Banners and even more so Quaithe.
The BWB served a useful purpose at the time (mainly to push Arya’s story forward and to heighten the Red God aspect via Melisandre) and proved an enjoyable thread, but given where we are in the show, if they were to never return I can’t imagine it’ll have much bearing on my enjoyment.
As for Quaithe, I didn’t even know her name (and I’m a relatively close watcher of the show), and thought that her main purpose was to imply Qarth wasn’t all it seemed (and that Dany and team were in danger) and to offer a cryptic pseudo-prophecy to add a little intrigue to Dany’s future arc. Nothing more than that. It never occurred to me that she would be important in any way going forward.
That isn’t to say I wouldn’t welcome either or both back if it helped tell the story. I just won’t feel like something’s absent or unresolved if they don’t return.
slimchicken,
That’s my point. As someone who hasn’t read the books you don’t really mind whether they reappear or not but wouldn’t be confused if they did? They’re loose ends that can remain loose ends as that won’t have great significance for the overarcing story but if done properly it could add some extra depth to the world and possibly plot going forward.
TheTouchOfFrost,
It’s probably a matter of semantics, but I don’t consider these to be “loose ends.” In my mind, the BWB storyline, as an example, is basically finished. If they come back to serve the greater story in some way, terrific, but I will not feel as though something was left unresolved if they don’t appear again.
As a point of comparison, I do consider the Balon/Yara storyline a loose end. It is unresolved, as presented. They’ve been shown to be important to the Theon character, the Stannis storyline, and to the greater War of the Five Kings. They’re imbedded, as it were, in multiple arcs.
The BWB, on the other hand, basically just serve two purposes in the show: 1) Advance Arya’s story to the point where she becomes a captive of the Hound. 2) Get Gendry into Melisandre’s hands (and build the Red God). They’re an entertaining bridge.
Crabber’s Son,
Overall – as a book reader.. I thought season 4 was lovely. Better than expected. The missteps for me were spread around pretty liberally.
Directing – Rape-gate. The worst scene in the series so far.
Writing – the beetle monolog. Going from the eloquence of the trial speech to that was cringing-worthy.
Special effects… stabbing Jojen, oh cringe, the lining up was horrid, looked like a floating head and a box.
Bonus D&D stuff – the fireballs. There was other ways to kill Jojen and not get a wright that didn’t involve bloody fireballs.
Compared to actual mammoths and the Purple wedding – the 360 shot and Brienne and the Hound GoT more than redeemed themselves.
Your definition is wrong. A loose end has to be a thread that is started but never completed. When do the characters ask: “who is Quaithe? What is her importance?” That’s not on TV. (It is barely in the books; although I think that Martin will do something with her, the simple fact is that we fans have made a mountain out of what is at most a hill with our endless speculation on her.)
Otherwise we can ask: are they ever going to tie up the boy who gave X that note?
Wrong The show became wildly successful by “pandering” to the cable TV series audiences that watch Sopranos, Breaking Bad, the Tudors, Dexter, True Blood, etc. There is huge overlap among those audiences. Those series have a lot in common story-wise, and it’s a basic type of story that strongly appeals to the well-educated, financially fairly well-off audiences that watch these shows. This is why the shows are critically acclaimed, too.
Because of this, the show is now dancing with twice the partners that it was. The “swords and sorcery” part of this probably had a lot of people thinking that it was just going to be a plot-driven, character-less epic. However, it turned out to be a character drama in crazy costume: and as word of that spread, the audience has increased substantially.
Here is how the show did not succeed (and no show of it’s sort would ever succeed): pandering to the initial fan base. Yes, we enjoy it: but we are nothing to the show’s ratings or it’s commercial success. Our praising or criticizing it did nothing: people know better than to trust our feelings on adaptations: if anything, then the general thought is that a fanboy’s praise is a bad thing and a fanboy’s criticism a good thing. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings were not that long ago!
Actually, the Doom of Valyria is mentioned 3-4 times in the series. It’s part of the “world babble.” That was one of the things I re-remembered in my binge-watch that I had completely forgotten. However, it is never stated that people travel to Valyria itself: only that they travel past them. Otherwise, we learn a couple of times that things haven’t happened since the Doom of Valyria.
At any rate, it’s just as fair game as it was otherwise. They have introduced new geographic locations (and new characters) every year: the one thing that people do know is that the map has a lot more on it that they show every week, and that we get new “popups” once in a while. Whether a popup has been named before it is shown is not important. The audience would not remember it, anyway, as the place names aren’t real place names that they know.
That’s a great summary. The movie “Adaptation” made similar statements. I think that a big part of the success of Thrones is that: 1) Martin’s stories about different aspects of internal conflict are generally appealing to the Cable TV Series audiences; and, 2) B&W have (so far) presented the same stories in the same general plot outline but as you would do it over 10 hours on screen.
And you are definitely right about fan-scripts!
slimchicken,
They have reached a conclusion in yours and I’m sure most peoples minds but as an entity they have not.
Wimsey,
Dictionary definition = a detail that is left unsettled, unexplained, or incomplete.
Quaithe fits that definition as we don’t know what happened to her or who she was and what her purpose/motivation for giving Jorah (and in the book Dany) advice. Again, it’s not significantly important to teh overall story but it is a loose end.
The only thing all those shows have in common is that they are all popular. Again, you’re pigeon holing audieces. Also your well-educated demographic should surely be able to deal with something as simple as a character reappearing. Things do not need to be changed to entie new viewers in. The shows repuation is doing that not it’s quality. Keep the artistic integrity and don’t change things to try and please viewers. As soon as you do that you don’t know where you’re at. If they enjoyed what you were doing before then you don’t need to change things. Adding more fights, more hot chicks, more SFX , etc is very shallow and I hope GoT doesn’t go this way.
Really are arguing over semantics here. Ok, if it nay have been established in the show that people don’t travel THERE exactly but travel in the vicinity/near it/past it. Either way it could potentially set up the character of Euron with him having travelled THERE exactly being a big deal. They’ve always bedded new areas in before going full blown though.
One of the chief pleasures of GoT for me is arguing about how the books should be adapted. It’s something akin to football for me. I love reading casting news, and the puzzling out of plot choices and casting on these pages. When I’m disappointed by how a plot is handled, it never ruins the rest of the show. I read the books at a friend’s insistence before the series premiered, but I’m not overly attached to how things are in them. The series has improved on the story in many instances, and the situation is like Blade Runner: you mix and match your favorite versions, the novel sometimes wildly different.
Has anyone been following the brouhaha this week on Wheel of Time? It’s a series I tried to read but couldn’t, but again I love storytelling adaptation and behind the scenes drama. This week the FXX channel aired a pilot shot in two days at 1 a.m. without telling anyone, just so the production company that has the rights could hold onto them. It starred Billy Zane and is mostly two people talking in a room. Robert Jordan’s widow complained it was an insult to his memory and they promptly sued her for breaking a nondisparagement clause. The pilot is embedded in the link below:
http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/fxx-aired-a-stealth-pilot-for-a-wheel-of-time-series-starring-billy-zane/
It relates to GoT in that it is so clearly about the monetary value of fantasy television series now. And the pilot is named “Winter Dragon.”
Anyway… Brotherhood or no Brotherhood, LSH or no LSH, Wyman or no Wyman… I only ask for this brilliant remark by Olenna next season, at Tommen and Marg’s wedding:
If they have that, I’ll be happy 😛
What would be better is if they worked in a joke about the Bear and the Maiden Fair (“The other song!”) at the same time.
Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if that line was used initially, but cut for time’s sake. After all, too much of a good thing and all of that…..
The key is that the characters in the show have to ponder it. They haven’t. Daeny hasn’t wondered it (on the show). Jorah doesn’t wonder it. “We” do not count until they wonder for us.
If storytellers were obligated to treat every question that the audience asks the same way they treat every question they have one of their characters ask, then tales would snowball into a exponentially growing mass of trivia. The Harry Potter series provides great examples. After the last Harry Potter book, fans compiled long lists of “loose threads” or “unanswered questions” or “red herrings.” What all of them were instead were “Mt. Molehills”: things that the book-readers had wondered but that Harry himself never had. Unless Rowling had Harry Potter himself wondered about it (either on his own or at another character’s prompting), then there was no “thread” and Rowling was under no obligation to “tie up” a thread that she never explicitly started.
What they have in common is that they are popular with the same audiences. Again, the overlap in the audiences for Cable TV series is very big: What they also have in common is that they tell stories about people struggling to work out what they should do or be in different contexts. (The settings are very different, of course: but there does not seem to be a relationship between the settings and the success.)
What I would like to know is: what did you think the main audience is like? If you think that GoT is pulling in a unique audience that is not watching the other shows, and that audiences of the other shows are shunning GoT, then you are way off!
Sure: if the characters are properly re-introduced. If these people go to a meeting and someone brings up an old project, they will demand that the pertinent details of that old project be revisited. They know that if they bring up an old project, that it will be expected of them. Why? Because the Cable TV series audience is a busy audience: they have a lot going on in their lives and a lot going on at any one time. (They pretty much have to be to afford Cable TV!) They are demanding if only because they live in worlds that are demanding of them. After all, they are customers and the storytellers are product providers: and that is how the customer-product provider relationship works when information is the commodity.
Almost all Cable TV series include these things: the ones that fail and the ones that succeed. Obviously, that’s not what brings in the audiences: otherwise all of the series would be successful. The difference between the successes and the failures seems to be twofold: 1) the type of character drama that drives the story; and, 2) how well they tell stories in the first place. The shows with lots of violence and sex that lack those things also lack second seasons.
If HBO wants to “sell out” more to build up this audience, then what they need to do is add more relatable shades of gray to the characters, put them in more relatable lose-lose situations, and put them in more relatable situations where the angel on one shoulder is disagreeing vehemently with the angel of the other shoulder.
No, I had missed that! I remember that they were trying to do a Cable TV series for years based on this series. WoT was once a very popular series, and the first 3-4 books were pretty good. Unfortunately, the series degenerated into a never-ending narrative of empty plotline after empty plotline, and the characters degenerated into sillier and sillier caricatures of things that didn’t need to be caricatured. (It’s staggering to think that WoT & SoI&F were held in similar regard 15 years ago!)
I seem to recall that a big holdup was Jordan wanting to be involved, but objecting to the degree of adaptation necessary. No novel is ever a good script, but his novels might have been worse scripts than most: but he didn’t seem to accept that. (GRRM had done a lot of TV writing before, so this fact probably was more obvious to him than to Jordan.)
At any rate, it will be no great loss if this isn’t made. I cannot see Jordan’s characters being anywhere near as appealing to mass audiences as Martin’s characters are.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Do you know, it has just popped into my head that you are from the UK and you might not know how the system works here in the US. (This has a lot to do with why we know what Cable TV series audiences are like.) In the States, most people do have cable TV. However, HBO, Showtime, etc., are not standard packages. It costs substantially more money each month to get those. This means a couple of things. One, the HBO, Showtime, etc., audience tends to be middle to upper-middle class professionals. That means that successful series have to meet the demands of those people. Two, people tend to spring the extra money for these channels only if there are multiple programs on them that they want to watch. Just wanting to watch Thrones (or Boardwalk or TruBlood or Dexter or whatever) isn’t enough: most people will wait and watch them some other (cheaper) way later if that is all they want. However, the collection of series draws a lot of people into the shows: HBO (and Showtime and other cable channels) devote a lot of advertising dollars and energy into showing you the range of series that they offer. The do this knowing that people who like one of these series are apt to like another. Thrones figures moderately prominently in this, but it’s just one of the series that they push.
(Indeed, a real concern for us GoT fans is that HBO has lost a couple of prominent series in the last year; that could lead to a decline in HBO subscriptions IF the new series don’t convince some Boardwalk and TruBlood viewers that HBO still has enough good programs to be worth the money.)
I realize that the situation probably is very different in the UK. However, in the States at least, it is difficult for one HBO series to have a very different audience from another HBO series because only a limited subset of the population gets HBO in the first place.
Given you now have 5 thumbs, and in the spirit of magnanimity, sure, that will suffice.
I know I won’t change Touch of Frosts’s mind with this comparison, but to me Balon’s leech is a loose end, and a big one, at that. Quaithe is not.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I think that would be perfect for Mel.
Of course, GRRM’s song would have to be Paperback Writer:
Dear Sir or Madam, will you read my book?
It took me years to write, will you take a look?
…..
It’s a thousand pages, give or take a few
I’ll be writing more in a week or two
I can make it longer if you like the style
I can change it ’round and I want to be a paperback writer
Paperback writer!
If you really like it you can have the rights
It could make a million for you overnight
😉
But Quaithe is still a loose end, it’s just you interpret it as not being relevant to the characters in the show, which it probably isn’t.
I have no preconceptions of what the GoT audience is. Think it’s unwise to put them all in the same box. I know lots of people from lots of different backgrounds and indeed countries and cultures who enjoy the show. It’s one of those that has really transcended demographics. We have a similar system over here. I wouldn’t say that people I know who pay for extra channels (in the form of Sky) are better educated nor more well off than those who don’t. They just watch more TV.
Of course how a character is reintroduced helps the success but your were writing it off out-of-hand earlier. If, seeing as we’re on the subject, Quaithe was re-introduced then her distinctive look and her referencing a conversation she had with Jorah in Qarth ( done a little more stylishly) would be enough to get the mass majority of the viewership back up to speed.
Adding them for the sake of adding them is a bad sign in a show for me. It’s like smoke and mirrors to distract from the story or even worse detract from what is going on. For example with last season, did we really needs the fireballs? I didn’t mind the Harryhausen skeletons but did they achieve much more than some stunt guy dressed as skellys?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Lol! Cheers to John, Paul, Ringo and GEORGE!
Little darling, it’s been a long cold lonely winter
Little darling, it feels like years since it’s been here
….
Little darling, I feel that ice is slowly melting
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been clear
TheTouchOfFrost,
I can call someone who doesn’t respect their fanbase and treats them as simple cash cows with shitty releases no on e cares about instead of working on the actual thing people care about,not to mention the quality that he writes say that he pretty much doesn’t give a shit anymore,whatever i want so you don’t tell me what to say boy ! I know to you and many others he seems like a gentle old man who looks like Santa Claus but he doesn’t fool me with that act,the man is a scam and a carnie .
Jesterr223456,
Ahh so he broke your heart? That’s where this bitterness comes from. I know you still long for his touch on those long lonely nights but one day you’ll find someone else but not until you let the hatred go. Be a brave little soldier and carry on as one day you’ll find someone who will love you back in the same way, bless you.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I feel the opposite I didnt mind the fireballs but wouldve preferred normal looking wights. And I dont get why Quaithe cant be brought back this season its not like it costs them anything and it doesnt even need to be same actress she wears a damn mask. But it was pointless to ever introduce her if her whole story was “protect her jorah”. I would love to get some prophecy in the show. The main reason I got into GOT was because I watched the first season and went “Holy crap I have no idea whats going on I have to watch this again,” and that has never really happened to me with any show mostly because I binge watch shows which I feel most people tend to do now with hbo go and netflix. Then I rewatched everything and was like so who was rhaegar? So i went through all the hbo guides and it was like a puzzle learning all the deep history within the show but as the show went on they have simplified everything so much. Season 5 is going to be the most important season of this show because they cant either cut 70 percent of the new characters and simplify everything which it seems they are doing or let the show remain complex and detailed but also more interesting.
Crabber’s Son,
See that’s the fun of shows like GoT for me. They don’t end when you switch off. You’re left to discuss things with you friends or in communities like this one. After the first season I couldn’t wait to find out what happened next so went out and devoured the books. Even after reading them the history and subtle details keep me guessing as to how the whole story is going to end and I keep finding little details that make me smile. For example the other week I made the link between Cersei wanting Arya’s hands cut off for striking a member of the royal family (Joffrey) and asking Jaime to go and find her to make it happen. Of course the poetic outcome was that Jaime, who killed a member of the royal family ( The Mad King) had his hand chopped off!.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Show watcher who happily spoils the books (which won’t be read), says: Who the F is this Q? I don’t remember her. A character who necessarily interacts with a main character isn’t necessarily a loose end. The girl at the inn who was being assaulted before The Hound (and Arya) cleaned house… What was her childhood like? What has she done since? Is that a loose end?!
It’s possible for Q to be revisited, but nothing near a flaw if not.
And a multi-year show will leave some threads loose. It’s inevitable. Q ain’t one.
Bongo,
All loose ends do not have to be resolved. If they’re not important to the overarcing story ( which we assume Quaithe isn’t but there’s a possibility that she is) then they can be left as loose ends. They are however still loose ends as we do not know what becomes of them.
Jesterr223456,
Aren’t you a little ray of sunshine. Still waiting for you to justify calling someone a ‘fat blob’ because you don’t agree with the direction they are taking their writing in. Do you often attack people’s physical appearance when it has nothing to do with what you seem to have an issue with? Use some manners and I may talk to you some more, until then I’ll let you get back to spilling your bile all over the forums until your heart’s content.
But even if
Jesterr223456,
If his mockery of you makes him seem like a 12 year old, how old does calling him a douchbag make you? A fetus?
That could be for the Prince that Was Promised, too!
And their producer: George Martin!
So are you another worshipper of the Four Gods? They are but four aspects of the One, you know….
🙂
I do not interpret Quaithe as being a thread in the show, as her who/what is never discussed on the show. That doesn’t mean she won’t be relevant or anything else. That just means that, so far, she is not any sort of “issue” on the show. Until that is done, then it’s not an “end,” loose or otherwise. It is what is on the show that counts, not what people watching the show wonder.
You don’t need preconceptions: you just need cable TV statistics! What it comes down to is that the Cable TV series have become a sort of genre of their own. In the States (and it’s the numbers in the States that drive this far more than anything else), the numbers come down to HBO viewers, which are a subset of the population dominated by particular demographics. Moreover, a big draw for HBO (and the reason why people are willing to pay extra money for it) are the Series. The Thrones viewers that really matter (i.e., the ones that produce the immediate ratings) are drawn primarily from a population that gets HBO in order to watch HBO’s series. This is (probably) the most sophisticated audience watching TV shows, and the standards are high.
Now, when you expand that audience, then it obviously becomse more diverse. However, that audience also is contributing a lot less money to the show, and they have had very little effect on HBO’s decision to keep the show.
Yes! Again, this is the most sophisticated audience watching TV. Any reasonably educated person knows that you cannot shove a torch onto a cold, ice-encrusted corpse and watch it explode into flame. Toss an oil-lamp onto it? OK, we can accept that: you need accelerants to burn people even after you drain all the fluid from them and raise them to room temperature. Stick a torch on it? The torch fizzles. (One of the criticisms of the Blackwater episode was that fire arrows seemed to be setting soldiers on fire; of course, they wouldn’t unless the soldiers were doused in something highly flammable first.)
Now, the audience has already accepted magic and magic fire. So, use magic and it’s now OK: magic can take the place of oil or gasoline or some other combustible. But that scene does not work for this audience without some something like that.
The fanbase isn’t a cash-cow. The fans provide only a small portion of the ratings. Indeed, the demographics that draw fan bases for SciFi/Fantasy in the States (high-school aged, college-aged, young 20’s) generally cannot afford HBO. That was a concern expressed when HBO initiated the series: what “ready-made” audience there was couldn’t afford HBO. (Of course, HBO subscriptions also had fallen off dramatically due to the recession, which hit the middle class of the US very hard: and premium channels were one of the first things people dropped even if they kept cable.)
The people that B&W have to treat well are HBO subscribers, the majority of whom never heard of SoI&F: even now, they only know it as GoT!
Wimsey,
We’re not going to agree on the definition of ‘loose end’ so probably best leave it. I will leave you with one final analogy. When making a scarf some ends of threads are left loose (tassles!). Just because they’re not tied up doesn’t mean they’re not important to the scarf overall.
Again, if it is a sophisticated audience (and I’m not sure you can link sophistication to wealth and income…just look at the Kardashians!) then they should be sophisticated to enjoy shows for story-telling and not CGI.
My main issue with them is that they were badly done CGI and the already strange Child of the Forest was made even stranger with the fireball dispensing. Too much weird at the same time! Personally, I think Coldhands could have been employed here to keep them at bay whilst the Child helped them escape into the tree. He could then be left as a Quaithe-like loose end ( All we know from the book really is that he is on Bloodravens side so as long as that is put across on the show). A curio as to the mysticism of the world that the story takes place in. I think having that happen would have been cheaper and also looked better. But hey ho, we roll with what we’re given I guess. To be honest, you can’t really argue about the realism of corpses not burning yet be fine with magic! Both are not in the realms of reality and but you give them that license when telling a story.
You gotta be kidding….
I actually think D&D wanted 8 but it was HBO that said 7…and that interfered with D&D’s plans. Wich is a shame because an 8 season show would be so much better imho…the smalls details are key for greatness, and I feel like we’re losing the battle here
Pau,
About which part? Doesn’t matter: the short answer is: “none.” Here are few basic truths that fans of all franchises often forget (or simply refuse to accept):
1. Human memories for details are poor unless they obsess about them in some way. That is why college seniors don’t do particularly well in tests that they took as freshmen unless they major in the topic. After all, in the subsequent three years, they are devoting the mental energy to: 1) obsessing about their major; 2) memorizing details from other courses in order to get decent grades; and, 3) their “lives” (i.e., sex and drinking). Another classic case is “where where you when *MAJOR EVENT X* happened?” The answer most people give the day after is different from the one that they give 5 years later, and different again from the one that they give 10 years later. Why? Because they remember the general details (X was shot; Y blew up) but not the specific ones (where I was).
2. Humans obsess about very few things. Most of us obsess about none of the movies, books or TV shows that we consume; those that do obsess about one or a small number. Most of us probably read a lot of other books and/or watch a lot of other TV shows. We don’t re-watch them or re-read them. We don’t discuss them on the Internet or with friends. Thus, we don’t remember details from episodes that we saw 2+ years ago. (How often have you seen a rerun only to realize partway through that you’ve seen this before?)
3. The people that do “obsess” often do so for different reasons than do the general consumers. The general consumer is in it for the story and for the characters (which often become inseparable, as most stories arise from how characters are developed). Hardcores (for from any of the major fandoms) usually are more invested in plot and in details. These include things like incidental characters (the Blackfish or Euron equivalents), the going-ons in particular regions (the Riverlands or Dorne equivalents) or side-things where they start wondering about things about which the characters in the book do not (as in our Quaithe example from the show). Rowling and Tolkien have both made comments about fans wondering about the damnedest things about which they themselves never thought. (The Simpsons had a wonderful spoof on this in the episode where Homer gets cast to play Poochy; William Shatner’s opening monologue on a Saturday Night Live episode circa 1986 also is a great comment on this.)
If anything, then the opposite is true. Small details are style. The substance is in the story, the character development and the broad plots.
That would make a good definition of “book purist”.
I’m sure that you would find somebody.
Is that your opinión or a fact? Because they way you say it it seems like it’s something set in stone…
I agree with this…but he could do it if he really wanted to. Is not like it’s impossible
That doesn’t make the scene good though…actually, quite the opposite.
Yeah, all the people I asked what they were going to do when they died answered just that…
Yes, because he should think about what you like and what can or can’t be filmed when writing a book.
You make a fool of yourself everytime you post something…but he really got you there, sorry 😉
I would say “ALL”.
1. College seniors…in the US you say? Ok, if you say so, I believe you 😉
2. Most people don’t remember…so? The show should be done for the ones that do. Even if it’s only one. Even if that one hasn’t been born yet. But sorry to burst your bubble, fortunately there’s lots and lots that do
3. Again, who cares about general consumers??
WRONG! (in my opinión) Getting most of it right is easy…getting EVERYTHING right is the hard part. Those small details are what separates the good from the great, and the great form the legendary. Most QB and coaches are great, but only the best could do what those patriot guys did…getting every little detail right is the key to succes (I know nothing about american soccer but if I talked about Guardiola and how he created the best football team in the history of football I guess noone would understand so I hope that analogy is good enough 😉
Thing is, noone will get every little reference, foreshadow or little piece of the puzzle that Martin created or Gilligan on Breaking Bad etc, but many will get SOME, and that’s what matters. And on a rewatch they will get MORE. And if those puzzle pieces don’t fit, they will notice…and, like a puzzle, if one piece doesn’t fit it stands out more thant a thousand that do. So they better get the gorydamn little details right, goodman.
PS: I refuse to believe you are an academic linked to the arts…economics or maths, maybe?
Bananas are not a fruit.
The studies have been international. Indeed, one of the proposed solutions is to make classes somehow more like Internet chat rooms: it’s been shown that students do retain more if they actively participate in some ways. The problem, of course, is that the students most prone to doing that are the ones predisposed to be interested. Moreover, their now are secondary studies suggesting that if students “actively” engage in year 1, but then “actively” engage in years 2 & 3, then they lose a lot of what they gained form active engagement in year 1. (Juggling that with your current classes, sex and drinking does get to be a lot!)
No, the show has to be done for the people who pay $$$ to subscribe to HBO. HBO pays for the program because the people who do choose to pay HBO (and it’s not a trivial amount of money) tune into it.
One key thing that people here have to remember, too: the HBO subscribers are drawn very non-randomly from the fairly well-off, fairly well-educated portions of the population. They probably are the most sophisticated mass audience that you will get. They are more demanding of proper storytelling than fanboys often are: if only because they are more interested in story (as opposed to plot or world-building) than many types of hardcore fans.
HBO’s shareholders: and therefore HBO’s CEO and the people under him; and therefore the people that they hire like Benioff & Weiss. Now, I think that HBO is committed to the 7 year run at this point: but had the general consumers disliked the show, then it would have ceased to exist no matter how much the fans like it. Just as with the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter films or any other book series that gets adapted to large or small screen, though, if all of the “hardcores” had hated the series and refused to watch it, yet the general audience liked it as much as this audience likes GoT, then the series would be nearly as successful as it is.
This is rubbish. When people talk about great TV or great movies, they never discuss small things. They talk about how well the story is delivered first and foremost, and all that this entails: development of the characters, cohesiveness of the plots, strength of the acting and directing, pacing. However, the lists of “bloopers” (small errors in details, etc.) for the great movies are very long. And yet: nobody relevant cares. There are no Oscars or Emmys for details, but lots of Oscar and Emmy winning films/shows with lots of inconsistent details. Reviews never mention details. There is no box office/ratings effect, yet lots of highly rated/big ticket selling films have lots of inconsistent details.
Now, you might say that the fans care: but (to borrow a phrase from elsewhere) the 99% don’t care if the 1% likes it or not. (Indeed, after the Lord of the Rings films, fan criticism probably is a badge of honor!)
Biologist. However, people in literature and film would be even more emphatic about this than I am. To them, story is everything. Never look to them to be supportive of fan criticisms.
Great to see that you left out the part that you could not counter! Guess that I win then 😉
You make a lot of straw man arguments:
– “The show is made to make money.” So? If the watch the little details it would not make money?
– “Most people won’t remember and the ones that do don’t matter”. So? How would making things right hurt the show in any way?
– When people talk about books they talk about common ground, but what makes those books special for them are the little things…
and on and on…you talk about what makes a show succesful. I’m talking about what makes a show great, even if noone watches it. But even then, what’s wrong with paying attention to the little details?
You’re basically saying there’s no need to your job as good as you could do it because most people won’t notice anyway…hope your boss doesn’t read this 😉
PS: And i forgot the last part wich, I’m sorry to say, is just laughable. First of all, people in literature would be appalled about what you’re saying if they care for their “work” at all (Film is an industry so who cares? we’re talking about art here) And then you say. “Story is everything”. Duh. Exactly.my.point. Story and every little detail of that story coming toguether perfectly, to the last little detail And I will look to whoever I want for support, thank you very much . Not sure what that, wich I didn’t do btw, has anything to do with anything. Other tan you not being one of them
I don’t think the two of you are disagreeing as much as you think.
I’m sure Wimsey appreciates detail in his stories. I’m sure Pau is aware of the needs of a TV show, which sometimes have nothing to do with the creative people. Wimsey is saying that most people don’t care about obscure details and references, so economically it makes sense not to focus on that. He’s not saying details are a bad idea artistically. I think you are discussing different things here, honestly. Wimsey is talking about it practically, as a product; Pau is talking about it strictly as a piece of art. I hate the “can’t we all just agree?” and “the truth is always in the middle” kind of arguments, but… in this case, isn’t that true? We should be aware of the practical limitations of the show, yet still be able to critique it artistically. The truth is in the middle: Game of Thrones is both a work of art and a commercial product, and its attention to detail, among many other things, are limited and enabled by that fact.
You both went to opposite extremes. Wimsey, you were talking about it from a purely financial perspective, as if D&D don’t care enough or don’t have enough pull to add these little details I’m sure they actually love in the books. Pau, you just literally dismissed the whole art of film-making because it’s an industrial endeavor.
Viewing a work of art from a purely financial point of view, with no creative consideration, is cynical and shallow (and if I can be sure of anything is that Wimsey isn’t shallow.) Similarly, viewing art as inherently incompatible with financial gain is just naive.
I actually started a post saying something along those lines, that we’re talking about different things. But I believe that if the show is such a succes it’s also because. for the most part, it also watches the little details, and because Martin certainly did.
And most times it takes less work to do the things right, not more. It just takes more talent.
Pau,
Oh I think he will tie it all up. I just don’t think it will be in two books! 😛
I see you just edited your post to add the last part. If you see my previous post you’ll see that’s not the way I think, but quite the opposite. 😉
Me neither…but he could do it if his life depended on it. I think he’s just afraid of living a life in wich he’s finished writing his magnum opus. His dream would be to die shortly after having finished it I’d say 😉
Pau,
Well, you did say film doesn’t count as an art because it’s part of an industry —I took that to mean that you see art as a bit of a fundamentalist; either the creator has all the control or it isn’t actually art. I was mostly addressing that point.
Anyway. Wimsey and Pau, this conversation has spiraled out of control, and you have argued for half a dozen comments, or near enough as makes no matter. So, mayhaps, you must needs act as men grown, shake hands and be done with this mummer’s farce. Words are wind, I know, but still… it’s better than arguing forever 🙂
Okay, I think I got most of my GRRM-isms out… Nuncle! As useful as nipples on a breastplate! Jape! Many and more, little and less, much and more! Half a heartbit! Hm, it seems I still had a few left 😛
To be precise I was referring to the people in the film industry that, according to Wimsey, would not agree with me. That is, the ones that just care about the money. I do think that GoT is a piece of art, and great art at that. I just wish it was better! As good as it’s succesful. I have certain concerns though that make me fear for the future. Maybe is becoming to big to be great…
You edited your comment again XD
I’m happy to let it rest…as you know is quite late around here anyway and have to go to sleep 😉
Pau,
Possibly. Although he’s got a whole universe to expand on if he chooses to keep writing one it’s done. I sense part of him just wants to relax. His trip to Paris was telling that the history nut in him seemed to be loving seeing all the places in Europe with historical relevance.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I don’t even care about you,your opinion,no in fact your entire existence is so insignificant to me that even if you were to be burning on fire i wouldn’t bother pissing on you .
Strictly speaking, art is defined by abstraction: there is some meaning to it that transcends the individual parts. For books and movies, that’s “story”: that thing that emerges from all of the parts but that doesn’t add up from them. Whether the creator has control of an adaption of that art (or not) is moot.
As for “small details being unimportant,” in a big way they are: otherwise we would not call them small details. If things are important, then they should not be small details. Chekhov’s Rule works both ways, after all!
My bigger issue, though, is with two related hubrises that are common to fandoms. (And not just SoI&F; Tolkien fans, Potter fans, Star Trek Fans, Doctor Who fans, Star Wars fans, etc., all share these hubrises). One is that normal storytelling rules do not apply to their favorite franchise. Oh, it does to others: Harry Potter and SoI&F are subject to these rules, but Tolkien was doing something else altogether; you can mix and match any and all of these franchises however you wish, with particular emphasis on those that you deem “rivals.”
The second one (which is almost a corollary) is that the mass viewers/readers either are using the same rules as the fans OR those heathens shouldn’t be reading/watching this. A corollary is that we fans alone are enough to make the thing work. Thus, whereas Joe and Jane Viewer are not hung up on every detail on other TV shows that they watch or in other books that they read (I mean, why would they be? I don’t get hung up on it!), they are hung up on every detail for FRANCHISE X. Because FRANCHISE X is special and different and truly unique!
In the end, however, all of our favorites are subject to the same rules. What qualifies as character development or a protagonist for Dickens or Tolstoy is the same as what qualifies as character development or a protagonist for Rowlings or Tolkien or Martin. How raptly people retain information from earlier in the movie or from prior episodes or prior books is generally going to be the same for any of these. When Chekhov wrote down his basic rules for what plays and books should and should not do, he was basically summarizing things that Shakespeare knew and used 300 years earlier, and that are still true now.
The upshot? GoT is very good TV, for the same reasons that the Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Six Feet Under, etc., all are/were very good TV. Audiences like these shows for the same reasons. Thrones fans have to stop deluding themselves that Thrones is being viewed differently (and therefore can play under a different set of rules) than those shows. In the end, it’s just another very popular, critically acclaimed TV show: and although only a small minority of TV shows hit that status, at any given time there are always a few of them around.
Jesterr223456,
I think I just found myself a new arch enemy. Have at you, d bag!
Last minute of GoT (Sopranos style):
All the remaining main Westeros characters (Jon, Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Stannis, Theon, Marg, QoT, Shireen, Mel and Shitmouth) have made their way to KL. The WW are approaching from the north, Dany and her dragons are approaching from the east, LS and the BwB are approaching from the west and the Sand Snakes are approaching from the south. All of the KL characters meet for a defense strategy picnic in the KL godswood. Upon arrival, they look at each other with concern. As they sit down for lunch, fade to black….
Jesterr223456,
Well, you certainly put me in my place. Teehee
Rygar,
I’m not sure you are a match for his rapier wit. 🙂
Hodor’s Bastard,
Do not trivialize one of the greatest endings of all time. If you missed it, then shame on you.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I am not looking to match, NWQ. 🙂
Rygar,
Seriously, Patrick?
David Chase wanted the conversation to continue…including all homages.
If they weren’t going to use LS we never should have seen Beric raised from the dead in the first place.
Small details can be important, the same way that big ones can be not so important!! If you don’t agree with that I don’t know what to say, maybe there’s something lost in translation here!
To clarify further, a “detail” can be small in size and big in importance, and vice-versa…
Jesterr223456,
If I’m so insignificant then why are you making such an effort to talk to me?! You seem to be quite a confused person especially with your grammar. When you use ‘i’ to represent yourself it should be a capital. But yeah, back to burning in my own insignificant yet literate existance I guess…
Tyrion Pimpslap,
LMAO I guess that’s why everyone says Season 4 is the best? Straight up mediocre season.
mau,
Yara same as in the books? Are you fucking kidding me? GRRM made them change the name because they changed the character so much LMFAO. These comments are just a reminder why I don’t go on any website for the show anymore. If you have a negative opinion against the show, you become the easy target and all every show fanboy comes to the defense of their masters D&D and start to defy basic logic by defending their favorite show against the angry purists.
What a joke
No, D&D changed it because of pronunciation issues. George wanted the Talisa character’s name changed because she was so different from his Jeyne character.
Ok this whole comments section has been an interesting read.
One thing I’d like to offer is an alternative to the ‘loose end’ phrase, the meaning of which has been debated. I would suggest that a number of the situations are ‘open ended’ at this point, insofar as that they lack any major resolution or permanent closure. They may (or may not) be finished with, but they could return and add to the plot in future. As things stand, several of those threads could potentially be glossed over (to some extent at least) going forward, without much notice from casual audiences.
I am certainly not suggesting that they should be glossed over though. I understand that maybe they are trying to streamline the story for what ever reasons, but certain things, like Quaithe for example, could probably have been dispensed with or reworked entirely if they had no plans for the role to have significance later. Especially considering the amount that they did change with regards to Qarth, they could have had any random throwaway character serve the same purpose, instead of a mysterious character with a distinctive mask and a recurring role in the source material.
That being said, I feel that way about Beric Dondarrion in the books and the show as well. I found it odd in the show how Mel more or less shrugs off his apparent significance to R’hllor, because I was always so intrigued by the pair, Thoros and Beric, who seemed to actually use magic the most out of anyone (one even actually has a flaming sword), and I assumed that if Mel learned of them she would at least reassess her certainty in Stannis. I think it would be a shame if that story never went anywhere. Even if it fed into something else as in the books and we never saw Beric again, he and the BWB should have some kind of legacy at some point.
Sean C.,
We see warging, green dreams, the Others, and shadowbinding before the return of the dragons. In fact, the dragons themselves are hatched via magic in the first place! Dragons didn’t bring magic back, magic brought dragons back.