The Night’s Cast Episode 31: HoTD Gets Hotter!

House of the Dragon teaser image

More casting news has been announced for House of the Dragon, the Targaryen-centered Game of Thrones spinoff — dare we say that the production train is picking up steam?

Join Petra and Samantha for a quick breakdown of the newest casting news and some fun speculation as to what it means for HoTD!

The podcast is available on iTunes and SoundCloud, and you can follow us on Twitter as well. Happy listening!

129 responses

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    1. I think the series will attract a lot of attention come the premiere. Not season 8 type numbers probably, but good enough that it gets them a sophomore season if they can deliver the goods.

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    2. Mali,

      That’s what they said about “Vinyl “ HBO announced it was renewing if for a sophomore season … then two months later turned around and pulled the plug. One-and-done.

      I’m cynical these days. Shows aren’t given time to build an audience, or, they may attract a lot of attention at the outset and generate good numbers but if the numbers start to flatten out the execs are quick to toss it overboard.

      I’m afraid that if a show doesn’t have a strong advocate among the network bigwigs, someone will kill it … because they can.

      Didn’t this happen already at HBO? Didn’t someone new come in and dump “Vinyl”? Or pull the plug
      awfully fast on the “Blood Moon” prequel?

      I figure a new show’s got to generate water cooler buzz right out of the gate. And even a good show can die a quick death if it’s put in a lousy time slot or has garbage promotion.

      The final episode of GoT aired on May 19, 2010. Close to two years ago. I’m not so sure the old fan base won’t dissipate by the time HotD airs.
      Especially after the industry wide, year long Covid production shutdowns, GoT and Targs and dragons could be “old news.”

      [Why am I being such a Mr. Buzzkill tonight? I’m sorry. I’ll go now.]

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    3. What this show will have, at least at the beginning ( maybe the premiere and a few episodes after), will be a certain amount of interest/curiosity. Mostly from the established GOT fandom (maybe some book fans as well) and perhaps beyond. There will clearly be an amount of brand recognition as well which should help initially.

      “Initially” is the key word, because after all that hype wears off, if the show cannot stand on it’s own…well, we have a whole lot of spinoffs and their various fates to draw from as experience.

      Speaking for myself, I don’t really feel all that excited about “House Of The Dragon”. I love GOT as much as ever and wish I could muster the same enthusiasm for this, but as of now I cannot. Who knows.. maybe the show will surprise us all and be really good. We’ll just have to wait and see.

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    4. loco73,

      ”Speaking for myself, I don’t really feel all that excited about “House Of The Dragon…”

      What worries me

      is that if HotD devolves into rival families torturing and killing each other in progressively more sadistic ways (thanks George) fans are going to get turned off real quick. Think of the backlash to GoT’s extended Theon torture porn scenes, and the uproar over showrunners’ decision to make Sansa a rape victim.

      It’s possible the writers can tweak the stories so they’re

      not as grim as GRRM. (Pun intended.) From what I can glean from book readers here, nobody has a happy ending. So, I wonder if the mass audience really has an appetite for constant cruelty and violence, even if there are some cool dragon aerial dogfights sprinkled in.

      I sure wouldn’t want to watch

      Olivia Cooke start out as a “comely” queen, only to turn into a shrew.

      Maybe this past year of non-stop death and disease has worn me down. A fluffy Rom Com or light and happy musical? Sure! A Targ Civil War? Ugh…

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    5. What’s with all the negativity? I think you’re underestimating the audience, Game of Thrones had a MASSIVE audience internationally! It’s hugely loved in countries like Spain, across South America, Mexico etc etc! A couple of years gap is nothing, did people forget about the Star Wars films after the original trilogy because years went by?
      Maybe have a bit more faith that peoples memories aren’t so short… Plus you have no idea how the show will turn out. Maybe it will surprise you……

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    6. Congratulations to our own Indira Varma aka Ellaria Sand, for getting cast in the”Star Wars Obi-Wan Kenobi” miniseries over on Disney Plus! She was cast in an “mysterious” role…as per all the entertainment rags.

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    7. Ten Bears:

      I figure a new show’s got to generate water cooler buzz right out of the gate. And even a good show can die a quick death if it’s put in a lousy time slot or has garbage promotion.

      You’re absolutely right. Entertainment has always been a tough, unforgiving business. Very few of what we now call “entertainment properties” ever generated enough revenue to pay for themselves. (Even to this day, thespians call MacBeth “The Scottish Play,” for a reason.) Hence spin-offs, like this one, born of the hope that some of the fan base built by the predecessor will give it a head start over all of the competition.

      As for the less-than-pleasant elements in Game of Thrones that you covered in greyscale, those were some of the only moments in the series where the level of interpersonal violence approached what GRRM consistently wrote into the books. He was, sadly, true to the origins of his fantasy milleu. Dark Age Britain was a cruel, violent place. Adding dragons to it will probably not reduce the body count, if the penultimate episode of Thrones provides any relevant example.

      For all of that, we can hope the quality of the product delivered to our screens will justify all of the considerable time, effort, and money put into it. Thrones had a great narrative, right from the opening image; complex characters, compelling situations, great acting, and production values which consistently exceeded the amount of money the producers spent. Just as Star Trek moved science fiction from adolescent magazines into adult living rooms, Thrones made gritty, realistic entertainment out of fantasy. Let’s hope the descendant equals the ancestor.

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    8. Let’s face it, GoT had what HotD can never have – unpredictability. Nobody knew how it would end until it did.

      I haven’t read the source book for HotD (apart from the bits that had been published as short stories and my memory of those is hazy), and I don’t intend to as I like to be surprised. Others will have read it though and will know the various outcomes. So it won’t be such a subject for theory and speculation. I just hope they add some unknown factors into it to keep people guessing.

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    9. Glass half full guy: A couple of years gap is nothing, did people forget about the Star Wars films after the original trilogy because years went by?

      No, but the quality sure took a nosedive. Maybe they should’ve forgotten about it.

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    10. Mr Derp: No, but the quality sure took a nosedive. Maybe they should’ve forgotten about it.

      Mr. Buzzkill here to pile on.
      “The Force Awakens” is on my list of All-Time Worst Movies Ever Made. Beat for beat, cookie cutter retread of the first Star Wars. Only without the sense of wonder.

      And what was that nonsense with Adam Driver killing his dad Han Solo for no reason?? Or Captain Brienne Phasma unlocking the Death Star 2.0 to allow the Scoobie Doo gang to blow up everyone in it? And out of all the gin joints on all the planets in all the universe, how did Daisy Ridley and her crew just happen to make a pit stop on the planet with an inn with a light saber in a trunk in the basement?

      I did like Daisey Ridley though.

      I stopped watching the sequels after TFA, and I’m sure glad I did. I heard that

      Palpatine, who we saw vaporized when Darth Vader threw him down the shaft in the big Vader-Anakin Redemption Epiphany Moment, returned very much alive – with no real explanation. Imagine if the Princess Shireen of the House Baratheon showed up in S8e6 to claim the Iron Throne.

      TFA makes the Top Ten because so much money was plowed into it that there was no excuse for the absence of originality and creativity.

      Maybe there is a lesson there…

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    11. Well the GRRM is reporting that he and Paris got their first doses of the COVID-19 vaccine (Moderna according to him), with the second scheduled for the end of this month. He has some rather colourful parting words in his NOT-A-BLOG section for this pandemic and the whole resulting situation surrounding it…and I can’t say I disagree…

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    12. loco73:
      Well the GRRM is reporting that he and Paris got their first doses of the COVID-19 vaccine (Moderna according to him), with the second scheduled for the end of this month. He has some rather colourful parting words in his NOT-A-BLOG section for this pandemic and the whole resulting situation surrounding it…and I can’t say I disagree…

      I’m glad to hear that, at least 🙂

      Off-topic covid stuff:

      Canadians born before 1946 here are eligible to be vaccinated. This includes my 90-year old grandparents which I’m very relieved about, but I’m still anxious for my 60-year old parents. And I’m worried about the covid variants. It’s my fear people will take the vaccinations and the lowering death rates to mean they can return to life as usual when the situation isn’t really under control yet, leading to another outbreak with an even worse virus.

      /end covid rant.

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    13. Ten Bears:
      Mali,

      That’s what they said about “Vinyl “ HBO announced it was renewing if for a sophomore season … then two months later turned around and pulled the plug. One-and-done.

      I’m cynical these days. Shows aren’t given time to build an audience, or, they may attract a lot of attention at the outset and generate good numbers but if the numbers start to flatten out the execs are quick to toss it overboard.

      I’m afraid that if a show doesn’t have a strong advocate among the network bigwigs, someone will kill it … because they can.

      I figure a new show’s got to generate water cooler buzz right out of the gate. And even a good show can die a quick death if it’s put in a lousy time slot or has garbage promotion.

      This isn’t Vinyl. This is an IP that HBO is invested in at this point, as they have plans to build a universe based on ASOIAF content, which they paid a lot of money for when they made their deal with GRRM. Even if season 1 ratings aren’t as good as HBO wants them to be, they still would likely push on with a season 2. They need content for HBO Max. That is the reason IMO they ordered HotD to series instead of to pilot after Blood Moon was cancelled, they are counting on ASOIAF to fill a slot in their content catalog for the next 5-10 years. They are counting on multiple seasons of content to have upticks in subscriptions every time a new season releases. I very much doubt they’ll give that one chance for this particularly show. I think they are all in for at least a few seasons before they’d ever seriously look into cancellation, no matter what the ratings for season 1 look like. They can’t afford to stop and start over again.

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    14. loco73:
      Well the GRRM is reporting that he and Paris got their first doses of the COVID-19 vaccine (Moderna according to him), with the second scheduled for the end of this month. He has some rather colourful parting words in his NOT-A-BLOG section for this pandemic and the whole resulting situation surrounding it…and I can’t say I disagree…

      Glad to hear he’s one of the lucky ones to get a vaccine this early. I read the not a blog thing too. I understand what he’s saying, but it’s kind of a weird thing to say, IMO.

      He’s devastated (understandably so) that he’s lost friends due to the Pandemic, but he feels the need to post about this on his blog as if this is unique to him and as if millions of others aren’t going through the exact same thing. Then he closes his statement with an “angry face” emoji like he’s 14 years old or something.

      It is what it is, but it just all comes off as self-indulgent and attention-seeking to me. Though I guess that’s what most of social media is used for. Of course, YMMV.

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    15. Mr Derp: Glad to hear he’s one of the lucky ones to get a vaccine this early.I read the not a blog thing too.I understand what he’s saying, but it’s kind of a weird thing to say, IMO.

      He’s devastated (understandably so) that he’s lost friends due to the Pandemic, but he feels the need to post about this on his blog as if this is unique to him and as if millions of others aren’t going through the exact same thing.Then he closes his statement with an “angry face” emoji like he’s 14 years old or something.

      It is what it is, but it just all comes off as self-indulgent and attention-seeking to me.Though I guess that’s what most of social media is used for.Of course, YMMV.

      LOL…I mostly liked that he was swearing! Anytime a senior citizen swears like that, it makes me smile and brings joy to my heart…🤓

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    16. loco73: LOL…I mostly liked that he was swearing! Anytime a senior citizen swears like that, it makes me smile and brings joy to my heart…🤓

      Same 🙂

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    17. loco73,

      I just took a look at the Big Kahuna’s Not a Blog.
      It wasn’t really his March 8 entry about getting the vaccine (titled “Good News and Bad News”) that caught my attention. Rather:

      • First, I could not help but notice how prolific he is on his blog. I wonder what his average word count per month is. His entries are fairly frequent and well-composed. I’d wager he’s written more in his blog than in The Winds of Winter over the past year. (This is not a condemnation. Just an observation.)

      • I’m not sure how self-aware he is when it comes to how his impatient fans will interpret what his anecdotes.
      In particular, his March 4, 2021 entry, which I’ve reproduced below), reports how “In the Lost Lands,” a story he wrote in the 70s about a sorceress named Gray Alys, is being made into a movie starring Milla Jovovich.

      Can’t go wrong with LeeLoo aka The Fifth Element herself.

      • But then, GRRM ……
      [🕰 Sorry! Gotta jump off. I’ll finish this in a little while. 🕟 Take a look at the text of his blog entry which I’ve highlighted in bold and see if it reminds you of another book series.]

      ➖➖➖ from GRRM Not a Blog ➖➖➖

      Gray Alys on the Silver Screen
      March 4, 2021 at 2:12 PM

      I cannot seem to keep out of the news these days.
      The latest story to break:

      https://ew.com/movies/milla-jovovich-paul-w-s-anderson-in-the-lost-lands-dave-bautista/   

      “In the Lost Lands” was one of my earliest fantasy stories (most of my work in the 70s was science fiction), the first tale of the mysterious Gray Alys, an enigmatic sorceress who would sell you anything you might desire… though her customers soon learned that you buy from her at your peril. 

        No doubt my long-time fans all recall the twelve classic tales I wrote about Gray Alys and her customers, which were later collected in the….. WHOA, WHOA, wait a second.   That’s all wrong.   Another of those pesky alternate world memories.   No, truth to tell, I meant to write a whole series of Gray Alys stories, I really did, I even began a second and penned a few of the opening pages… but one day I put it aside and I never got back to it.   In the end I only wrote one Gray Alys story.
      “In the Lost Lands.”

      And now the story is coming to the big screen.   Paul W.S. Anderson, director of Monster Hunter, Pompeii, and several Resident Evils, will helm the film.   Milla Jovovich will star as Gray Alys, with Dave Bautista of Guardians of the Galaxy as Boyce, who leads her into the Lost Lands.  German film director Constantin Werner, who first optioned the story and tried to get the film made for years,  will be among the producers.

      And who knows?   If the movie is a big hit, maybe there will be sequels, and Gray Alys will finally get her series after all.

      (So many years have passed, I no longer recall why I never finished that second story.   I loved the character.  Still do.   And there were secrets I meant to reveal in those unwritten stories, and a whole complex backstory, and and and… sigh.  Where do the years go?)

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    18. Ten Bears,

      Maybe taking the Pfizer vaccine with all that mRNa tech in it, will turn the GRRM into a powerful mutant, with amazing abilities like writing faster…and finishing a book under 10 years…

      I’m just as curious if Patrick Rothfuss is still as “disturbed and worried” about the world around him as he has been for the past decade…And mind you that guy only had one trilogy (“The KingKiller Chronicle”) to finish…but I guess the last book will kinda come out in twenty years or so…

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    19. Nee,

      “…This is an IP that HBO is invested in at this point, as they have plans to build a universe based on ASOIAF content, which they paid a lot of money for when they made their deal with GRRM. Even if season 1 ratings aren’t as good as HBO wants them to be, they still would likely push on with a season 2. They need content for HBO Max. That is the reason IMO they ordered HotD to series instead of to pilot after Blood Moon was cancelled, they are counting on ASOIAF to fill a slot in their content catalog for the next 5-10 years…”

      I’m not challenging you. I’m just not sure I understand what you mean about HBO axing Blood Moon after a single unfinished pilot, and then ordering a full season of HotD sight unseen, and not pulling the plug even of its ratings flatline.

      Also, if they “need content for HBO Max” [and]that “is the reason IMO they ordered HotD to series instead of to pilot after Blood Moon was cancelled,” because they are counting on ASOIAF to fill a slot in their content catalog for 5-10 years, why shut down Blood Moon so abruptly? It had a big name writer and big name lead (Naomi Watts).
      Why didn’t they give that show more than one chance to build up its

      If the #1 objective was to generate an income stream by maximizing the use of its ASOIAF intellectual property rights, fill time slots, and build the ASOIAF universe, why wouldn’t they want as much ASOIAF programming on the air as possible?

      It just seemed awfully risky to go all-in on HotD and expect it to be your new ASOIAF flagship.

      I still say that if return on its investment was paramount, HBO

      could have commissioned a sequel or prequel with a few familiar faces or (aged-up or aged-down) familiar characters: some kind of connection to the original series to draw in fans.

      .

      Hey, I hope I’m wrong and the new show is wildly popular and profitable.

      Then all of those new moms who named their newborns “Khaleesi” or “Dany” throughout S1-S6 of GoT can rename them “Alicent” or “Nettles.”

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    20. Ten Bears: because they are counting on ASOIAF to fill a slot in their content catalog for 5-10 years, why shut down Blood Moon so abruptly? It had a big name writer and big name lead (Naomi Watts).
      Why didn’t they give that show more than one chance to build up its

      I’m thinking, as sometimes happens, something wasn’t quite working with Blood Moon, something they didn’t feel could be fixed and anticipated issues in the long run (and such problems can vary). Blood Moon also didn’t reach the production stage HotD is at (I don’t think), much less once HotD is aired. For that reason, I think HBO would be willing to give HotD at least a season.

      However, I don’t think a big name writer and a big name lead is enough on its own. If there are other problems — problems which we may never know about — that may be enough not to go all in on this investment, prompting them to bank one’s odds on another show.

      Especially with The Crown being so popular, they may have felt HotD was a better bet. We’ll see I guess? 🙂 I’m sure it will be afforded at least one season though, maybe two.

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    21. loco73: GRRM into a powerful mutant, with amazing abilities like writing faster…and finishing a book under 10 years…

      Finishing a book under 10 years did you say?

      We really are living in the future! What an extraordinary expectation! No human can write at that lightning speed! 🙂 Maybe the covid vaccine has given us a way to progress into the next age of evolutionary advancement if this incredible improvement can be made genetic..

      On the (more) serious side: this would be an incredible feat for GRRM now XD;

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    22. Ten Bears,

      ”If the #1 objective was to generate an income stream by maximizing the use of its ASOIAF intellectual property rights, fill time slots, and build the ASOIAF universe, why wouldn’t they want as much ASOIAF programming on the air as possible?”

      Here’s a no-brainer: Wanna pull in your existing GoT audience? Get monster ratings for your premier? Write a blank check to a fan favorite GoT actor whose character’s story was left open-ended, almost as if to deliberately leave open the possibility of a sequel series.
      If HBO wants to milk its cash cow, its best bet would be to go with a proven commodity.

      Now let’s see… Who fits the bill?

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    23. Ten Bears,

      Per similar discussions we’ve had about this previously, I think the issue with this is that it may work for a little while but not forever (plus the actors have expressed a desire to move on). The interest only lasts for so long and then it’s on the story. So many spin-offs fail, even if the character was popular. They’re a pretty tricky and delicate balance and can’t rely on the familiar character alone. Plus, GRRM himself still hasn’t finished these stories even in his own books and I don’t think he’s figured out how their story goes in the books, much less beyond this.

      Another issue is I’m not sure what the rights for this would look like. I don’t think they extend past ASOIAF. GRRM seems to enjoy world-building and developing the history for his world (which I think is one of the issues as to why he hasn’t made much progress with ASOIAF) so the prequels kind of seem like the best bet: brand new characters, brand new stories, brand new actors.

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    24. Adrianacandle,

      ”I’m thinking, as sometimes happens, something wasn’t quite working with Blood Moon, something they didn’t feel could be fixed and anticipated issues in the long run (and such problems can vary). Blood Moon also didn’t reach the production stage…”

      Call me cynical. I’m not sure I trust the judgment of whatever executive makes the green light/red light/pull the plug decisions.

      I only bring up the names of the lead actor (Naomi Watts) and writer (Jane Goldman) because they have the proven talent and skill. If there was a hiccup in the Blood Moon pilot, I’d trust Jane Goldman to fix it, rather than defer to some hollow suit who may not know what he’s talking about.

      I’ll bet if there was “something they didn’t feel could be fixed and anticipated issues in the long run, it went something like this:

      Mr. Suit: “I think Naomi’s character should have a puppy. And a nosy mother in law who comes to visit and embarrasses her.”
      Jane G: “Why?”
      Mr. Suit: “Everybody likes puppies. That’s what the focus group data says.”
      Naomi W: “Shouldn’t we defer to Jane instead of letting focus groups write our show?”
      Mr. Suit: “I see we are having “creative differences. Pack up and leave. I’m shutting down this motherf*cker.”

      R.I.P. Blood Moon

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    25. Ten Bears: Call me cynical. I’m not sure I trust the judgment of whatever executive makes the green light/red light/pull the plug decisions.

      I only bring up the names of the lead actor (Naomi Watts) and writer (Jane Goldman) because they have the proven talent and skill. If there was a hiccup in the Blood Moon pilot, I’d trust Jane Goldman to fix it, rather than defer to some hollow suit who may not know what he’s talking about.

      I’ll bet if there was “something they didn’t feel could be fixed and anticipated issues in the long run, it went something like this:

      Mr. Suit: “I think Naomi’s character should have a puppy. And a nosy mother in law who comes to visit and embarrasses her.”
      Jane G: “Why?”
      Mr. Suit: “Everybody likes puppies. That’s what the focus group data says.”
      Naomi W: “Shouldn’t we defer to Jane instead of letting focus groups write our show?”
      Mr. Suit: “I see we are having “creative differences. Pack up and leave. I’m shutting down this motherf*cker.”

      R.I.P. Blood Moon

      I think something to consider is we’re not aware of the factors/rights issues/considerations/and discussions that went into the decision to cancel Black Moon. We have zero info on any of this.

      Proven talent may not be enough. Plus Blood Moon wasn’t their only option, they had several. If they didn’t feel something was working or they had concerns, perhaps they didn’t feel that investing the money into the problem was worth it (something I’m learning with the rocket project) and wanted to try something totally different. In their minds, perhaps moving on to another option within the ASOIAF-sphere may have been the better option.

      Plus, we don’t know what the issue was or what their discussions looked like. I mean, plugs are pulled for many different reasons and pretty often with TV pilots, even with big names. Blood Moon was up against several other options.

      Blood Moon was my preferred choice but I also have no expertise in how these decisions are made, I’ve never seen anything of the Blood Moon pilot, I have no insight into what went into the decision to cancel, or what’s needed to get a show to the point where it’s green lit to be aired.

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    26. Adrianacandle,

      ”…I think the issue with this is that it may work for a little while but not forever (plus the actors have expressed a desire to move on)
      ****
      Another issue is I’m not sure what the rights for this would look like. I don’t think they extend past ASOIAF.”

      It’s like the song says: 🎶”Money, money changes everything.”

      Yes, actors can have a desire to move on. $10 million in cash has a way of suppressing that desire to move on.
      The only one I can name who’d say “F*ck off” to a courier with a satchel of cash is Rory McCann. Other actors can be persuaded by appealing to their social conscience, e.g. matching $10 million donation to charity.

      Semi-related Q: After this horrible past year, isn’t it possible that folks are yearning for the familiar rather than the unknown? People I’ve talked to don’t want any more insecurity and uncertainty in their lives.

      I am not a shrink and I’m probably not expressing this very well.

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    27. Ten Bears,

      It’s like the song says: 🎶”Money, money changes everything.”

      Yes, actors can have a desire to move on. $10 million in cash has a way of suppressing that desire to move on.
      The only one I can name who’d say “F*ck off” to a courier with a satchel of cash is Rory McCann. Other actors can be persuaded by appealing to their social conscience, e.g. matching $10 million donation to charity.

      See, I don’t know. If the actor is comfortable and not in desperate need for money, there are more important things: especially for those who consider themselves artists and want to expand their careers, explore different roles, genres, and move on to the next stage of their career rather than going back to a character they’ve lived with for 10 years.

      There are also other ways to fundraise and focus on charities, ways that may suit the actor’s own goals, desires, and lifestyle better that also allow them to explore career options without going for a spin-off. Spin-offs are notoriously risky.

      Another important consideration is rights: if this is going to be original material, I don’t think GRRM is going to grant permission. GRRM has said he’s not a fan of fanfiction. I don’t think GRRM has figured out what happens to characters beyond ASOIAF, if they do have a beyond-ASOIAF and his desire may be to end the characters’ stories at this point.

      Semi-related Q: After this horrible past year, isn’t it possible that folks are yearning for the familiar rather than the unknown? People I’ve talked to don’t want any more insecurity and uncertainty in their lives.

      For people who have gone through financial hardship from unexpectedly losing their jobs, yes. There is that yearning for stability. However, I don’t think this is an issue for many actors involved with GoT. There’s also a yearning for returning to life as it once was and exploring new territory again and progressing their careers, transitioning to the next stage in life since covid has so many of us trapped from doing so.

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    28. Adrianacandle,

      I don’t know how the process works either. I do know that shows I really enjoyed got canceled after two or three episodes, while total dreck gets to stay on the air. (Because they had a puppy, probably.)

      Seriously though, I read two insiders’ accounts of how these kinds of decisions are made. Very enlightening. I know one of them wrote either a long article or blog that could still be available online… I’m trying to remember their names..

      1. I’m pretty sure one was the screenwriter of “My Cousin Vinny” and some other recognizable movies. His name might be Dale Launer. I am not sure of the spelling.

      2. The second one was the screenwriter of “The Last Seduction.” I forget his name.

      It’s shocking how unqualified know-nothings make creative decisions

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    29. Ten Bears,

      I, too, have had many many shows cancelled on me that I loved. Wonderfalls immediately comes to mind 🙁 Firefly, especially, comes to mind for others.

      But I’m reluctant to characterize those who made these decisions as “unqualified know-nothings make creative decisions” because I have no basis to make that conclusion. I don’t even know the names of the people involved making these decisions re Blood Moon/ASOIAF prequels or their qualifications. They may have good reasons.

      Blood Moon is definitely a prequel I was interested in, more than any of the other options. You know my interest in the Long Night 😉 But…

      Maybe another time. Maybe after the books are published. Maybe when GRRM is pushing 100 and deciding to work on world book #60 while he’s still promising TWOW. Maybe, currently, the TV-landscape is too pumped for dramas like The Crown right now and HBO is zeroing in on that (but with more blood). We just don’t know.

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    30. Adrianacandle,

      ”Blood Moon is definitely a prequel I was interested in, more than any of the other options. You know my interest in the Long Night 😉 But…

      Yeah I do. And you know my take on The Long Night: It never happened. Propaganda story to vilify the victimized.

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    31. Ten Bears: Yeah I do. And you know my take on The Long Night: It never happened. Propaganda story to vilify the victimized.

      Yes, I do know your take on it 🙂 I think you’re also familiar with mine — that I’m sure the Long Night occurred. While it’s possible details may have been fabricated, twisted, or misunderstood about the Long Night, completely separate parts of the world (Rhoynar of Essos and lands in the far far East, like Yi Ti) report a Long Night with Other-sounding creatures. Add to that, the Wall was created for a reason since the issue of the Others forced the humans and Children of the Forest to make a common cause, fight together, and erect the Wall. As a result, I’m inclined to believe something really significant happened and the Others were an issue thousands of years ago.

      How it was solved is up to legend — I think it’s a combination of embellishment, fact, and myth 🙂 I would have been interested to see this explored in Blood Moon.

        Quote  Reply

    32. I don’t want to go off on a tangent but in the British media currently we are having wall to wall talk of the Duke and Duchess of not Southeros. There was an interview on TV with a friend of theirs, Janina Gavankar. I don’t know a lot about her but wasn’t she (Janina) suggested as a candidate for the Princess of Dorne at one time? JG came across as very gracious and charming and a loyal friend.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Adrianacandle,

      (Reply, Part 1 of 2)

      I may have mentioned before that debating tinfoil theories about ancient prophecies reminds me of this scene from Doctor Who S9e12, “Hell Bent.”
      🚩

      MW Alert

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw7phZ4tOQk

      Here, the Doctor and Ashildr (MW) trade theories and interpretations of an ancient prophecy that a “hybrid” of two races would destroy the world. Paraphrasing 0:18 – 2:47 of the 3:22 long clip:

      A: “Who is the hybrid?”
      Dr: “The hybrid is you. It fits perfectly.”
      A: “Interesting theory.”
      Dr: “You have a better one?”
      A: “You could be the hybrid.”
      Dr: “That’s your best theory? I’m the hybrid? That doesn’t make any sense.”
      A: “It makes perfect sense and you know it. But that doesn’t matter. Because I have an even better theory.”
      Dr. “Really?”
      A: “What if…”

      ⚠️ P.S. I liked her line delivery when she called him out for his recklessness at 2:25 – 2:30:

      Dr.: “Clara’s my friend.”
      A: “I know! And you’re willing to risk all of time and space because you miss her.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Adrianacandle: Yes, I do know your take on it 🙂 I think you’re also familiar with mine — that I’m sure the Long Night occurred. While it’s possible details may have been fabricated, twisted, or misunderstood about the Long Night, completely separate parts of the world (Rhoynar of Essos and lands in the far far East, like Yi Ti) report a Long Night with Other-sounding creatures. Add to that, the Wall was created for a reason since the issue of the Others forced the humans and Children of the Forest to make a common cause, fight together, and erect the Wall. As a result, I’m inclined to believe something really significant happened and the Others were an issue thousands of years ago.

      How it was solved is up to legend — I think it’s a combination of embellishment, fact, and myth 🙂 I would have been interested to see this explored in Blood Moon.

      Part 2 of 2

      • From my perspective as a “pre-books, show-only” fan, I concur about the possibility that details of long ago events were “fabricated, twisted or misunderstood.” That was a recurring theme on the show; even after one generation an “official story” was completely different from what really happened.

      I once made a list off the top of my head with more than ten examples, e.g., Ned “beating” Arthur D; Rhaegar “kidnap & rape” Lyanna, Prince Joffrey the hero wounded fighting off a direwolf and later “saving” the city; the Braavos play portraying doofus villain Ned and saintly Joffrey; etc. I added “the bravest man ever seen” Thoros at Siege of Pike story, and so on.

      I believed this pattern was to be a setup for a “big reveal.”

      • In general, based only on the show, I’d agree that whatever happened with the “the Others” (show! WWs), the resolution of “the Long Night” may have begin shrouded in “embellishment, fact and myth.”

      • Tinfoil speculation can be a pleasant mental exercise: Trying to come up with a logical explanation that accounts for all of the “known” facts while requiring the fewest assumptions.

      (Wimsey explained all of this better, with references to “Occam’s Razor,” and “Chekhov’s Gun.”)

      (Sorry if I’m repeating myself here…)
      • I figured the show was planting the seeds for the big reveals at the end. This would’ve been especially true when GRRM was involved with the show and contributing scripts (in S1 – S4).
      – As I see it, the problems (or challenges) for me are that when the show started passing the books and GRRM divorced himself from the show’s production, some of those “seeds” never germinated; they wound up looking like extraneous details rather than deliberate clues.
      – With no offense to the showrunners intended, once GRRM left them twisting in the wind with unfinished storylines and unsolved mysteries (and apparently, no blueprint formulated yet by GRRM for the brilliant resolutions and clever twists that fans were anticipating), the show’s writers had to invent “synthetic connective tissue” and devise
      simplified endings. I think that’s why many fans felt storylines were abandoned and riddles left unanswered.

      • Nevertheless [and bear with me here], there were some latter-season details that did come straight from the Big Kahuna, right?
      Specifically, it’s my understanding that the Hodor origin reveal in S6e5 came from GRRM.
      (I thought that was a Top 5 episode. The director, Jack Bender, did a masterful job especially in the final segment: The frenetic back and forth between past and present until finally…poor brain-fried Wyllis writhing on the ground.)
      But I digress – and maybe that’s part of my point. The incursion of the wights + crazy escape from the cave + Hodor self-sacrifice were so shocking and memorable that they kind of overshadowed the other big reveal in that episode.

      • Q: If we accept the Hodor origin story in S6e5, why shouldn’t we also accept as canon the WW origin story in S6e5?
      It does align with the “accepted history vs. actual history” theme.
      It would also change the accepted chronology of the WWs’ appearance, and the the mankind + CotF alliance, wouldn’t it?
      If “the Others” weren’t a “common enemy” who compelled mankind and CotF to set aside their differences and join together, but instead were WMDs created by the WWs during their war against mankind, doesn’t that upend the legends and myths?

      I’ll have to go back and watch that episode again.

      As I recall, Bran’s reaction to Leaf’s admission that CotF created the WWs (after Bran woke up from tripping and confronted her) mirrored his reaction to watching Arthur Dayne getting stabbed in the back by Young Howland Reed: Bran “knew” Ned beat AD because he’d heard that story “a thousand times” – a story that turned out to be hogwash, or face-saving propaganda(?)

      I know all of this is long-winded and convoluted. Sorry. And I did have some thoughts about your observation about the significance of similar legends in various cultures. Maybe I can address that later, in less words. Excuse me, fewer words.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Ten Bears,

      I once made a list off the top of my head with more than ten examples, e.g., Ned “beating” Arthur D; Rhaegar “kidnap & rape” Lyanna, Prince Joffrey the hero wounded fighting off a direwolf and later “saving” the city; the Braavos play portraying doofus villain Ned and saintly Joffrey; etc. I added “the bravest man ever seen” Thoros at Siege of Pike story, and so on.

      



      Sure, but these events still were not fabricated completely as a Propaganda Long Night would be. They still happened. Some-to-many details are different though between the true account and the recited account.

      



      In general, based only on the show, I’d agree that whatever happened with the “the Others” (show! WWs), the resolution of “the Long Night” may have begin shrouded in “embellishment, fact and myth.”

      Tinfoil speculation can be a pleasant mental exercise: Trying to come up with a logical explanation that accounts for all of the “known” facts while requiring the fewest assumptions.

      

Yes. Still, in order to do this — and I say this gently — I think one also needs to be familiar with the book material to be able to form speculation about the books’ lore that accounts for all of the known information while requiring the fewest assumptions per Occam’s Razor. I, myself, don’t really think a no-Long-Night speculation does that per my post above. Because there are similar accounts of something similar to the Long Night happening in various, separate parts of the world, this is something I feel that is a big hindrance to the no-Long-Night theory.

      As for the show and book adaptational differences and whatever GRRM gave D&D, I’m going to try to tread very carefully to avoid sparking oft-done debates. We don’t know the details of what GRRM gave D&D other than what we’ve already been told. We do know there have been differences made from the first episode (GRRM has spoken about, the “butterfly” effect from the beginning), D&D and GRRM have each spoken about major differences between the book and show (no LSH, Sansa’s storyline, Rickon’s future role, etc.), and their three days of story conferences in 2013. GRRM may very well have given them his full vision for the Others if he had figured it out — but it may not have worked terribly well for TV in D&D’s mind. For example, the show became more action-based and the Night King made the White Walkers more corporeal, an tangible enemy to see, defeat, and work against. In the books, the Others are far more elusive and evocative of almost a haunted horror story (you feel them, you hear about them, you don’t see them).

      Q: If we accept the Hodor origin story in S6e5, why shouldn’t we also accept as canon the WW origin story in S6e5?

      Well, I think the show’s WW origin story is show canon but there are pretty big differences with the Hodor story and the WW origin story.

      First, like you said, the Hodor reveal was confirmed by GRRM to be one of the three twists. However, GRRM has not confirmed the WW origin story (and there are differences between the book’s Others and show’s WWs). Even with the Hodor stuff, GRRM spoke about how there will be differences here too:

      “I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book,” Martin said. “They did it very physical — ‘hold the door’ with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to ‘hold the door’ is more like ‘hold this pass’ — defend it when enemies are coming — and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.”

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    36. Ten Bears,

      [con’t]Second, as I said above, there are already differences made between adapting the Others storyline for TV. For one, there is no Night King in the books. The Others, themselves, are also kind of characterized differently from how they are in the show. In the books, they are elusive, wholly mysterious, and aren’t really seen but felt. It’s always painful from cold to breathe when they are near. They pick off the ones in the back, come at night, and take one or two people. They are their own race — a sentient one. GRRM described them as, “are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” He has also said the Others are not dead.

      Third, the show never really went into the lore and history of the Long Night. Given that similar accounts started popping up from very separate places, I’d say something very significant happened and it’s not just propaganda.

      It does align with the “accepted history vs. actual history” theme.
      It would also change the accepted chronology of the WWs’ appearance, and the the mankind + CotF alliance, wouldn’t it?

      Well, we don’t know the chronology in the books either. There’s speculation over the timeline in the books too among in-universe scholars. I also don’t think it’s enough to meet the “accepted history vs. actual history” criteria. Similar to what you said above, I’d say it needs to account for all the “known” facts in the book material — like it’d need to account for whatever significant worldwide event happened thousands of years prior and other historical details.

      If “the Others” weren’t a “common enemy” who compelled mankind and CotF to set aside their differences and join together, but instead were WMDs created by the WWs during their war against mankind, doesn’t that upend the legends and myths?

      Even if this were the case in the books, which I’m doubtful about myself, it seems the Long Night did happen from accounts detailing very similar happenings in very separate places all over the world. These accounts even detail the appearance of Others-like creatures on totally different continents.

      The Others may very well still be a common enemy forcing the CotF and First Men to work together — but they may still have compelling motives of their own for wanting to wipe out humanity. If the CotF were allied with them once, they may have compelling motives for defecting. If so, this would also upend the legends and myths because the Others wouldn’t simply be cardboard anti-human all-out-evil enemies but a group fighting for an understandable and sympathetic cause, cause that conflicts with humanity’s interests. This could also be an example of “accepted history vs. actual history” but one that also doesn’t get rid of the Long Night happening altogether.

      As I recall, Bran’s reaction to Leaf’s admission that CotF created the WWs (after Bran woke up from tripping and confronted her) mirrored his reaction to watching Arthur Dayne getting stabbed in the back by Young Howland Reed: Bran “knew” Ned beat AD because he’d heard that story “a thousand times” – a story that turned out to be hogwash, or face-saving propaganda(?)

      I think for the situations to be more comparable, the fight between Ned and Arthur Dayne would not have to have happened at all — as you’re proposing with the Long Night. Yet, the fight did happen. That wasn’t hogwash. However, Bran learns Ned wasn’t able to overcome Arthur on his own and he was only able to do so because yes, Howland Reed, stabbed him in the back fo the neck.

      With the Long Night, details get lost to history so people end up fabricating/embellishing/trying to connect the dots based on what they know. Via information provided by the world books and ASOIAF, I think the the easiest conclusion for me to accept is the Long Night did happen — but nobody has the full story of what went on anymore and details may differ, perhaps significantly.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Ten Bears,

      A: “Who is the hybrid?”
      Dr: “The hybrid is you. It fits perfectly.”
      A: “Interesting theory.”
      Dr: “You have a better one?”
      A: “You could be the hybrid.”
      Dr: “That’s your best theory? I’m the hybrid? That doesn’t make any sense.”
      A: “It makes perfect sense and you know it. But that doesn’t matter. Because I have an even better theory.”
      Dr. “Really?”
      A: “What if…”

      Yep, sounds like classic fan theory debate 🙂 That is a cool clip!

        Quote  Reply

    38. Adrianacandle,

      ”Because there are similar accounts of something similar to the Long Night happening in various, separate parts of the world, this is something I feel that is a big hindrance to the no-Long-Night theory.”

      Are you saying that in the books the WWs’ invasion spread throughout the world? Or just that there were similar accounts of a “night” lasting many years?

      If we want to talk about embellishment, how about “The Long Night” that lasted maybe 6-7 hours max?

      Anyway, I’d been thinking that in the real world several cultures and civilizations have similar stories about a great flood, a great prophet, or a messianic savior. I’m not sure if they originated independently, or from the same person or event.

      I did once read an interesting scholarly article about dragons. No, really. The researcher found remarkably similar drawings and descriptions of dragon-like creatures in literature in different places throughout the world – with no known contact between some of those civilizations at that point.

      I think his hypothesis

      was that the discovery of fossilized or preserved dinosaur skeletons throughout the world led to common speculation about the anatomy of the creatures. I’m not sure if fire-breathing was a common detail. Maybe those imagining what the creature looked like all thought it’d look cool if they could spew flames and added in that visual. I sure would.

      I’d have to look for that article to be sure about that theory…

        Quote  Reply

    39. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      Yep, sounds like classic fan theory debate 🙂 That is a cool clip!

      Yes! That’s why I thought of it. (Not because of the ARLTA Principle.) Each competing theory trying to incorporate all of the “canon” and come up with a logical conclusion with a clever twist.

      Plus, the back and forth “that theory doesn’t make any sense!” … “It fits perfectly and you know it. But I’ve got a better one.” It did remind me of “classic fan theory debate.”

      I’m not sure if the outside-the-box interpretation of the prophecy in that clip was the definitive solution. I didn’t really watch Doctor Who very much before or after that one season. ⚠️ Spoiler

      I do know that they gave MW’s character a great “arc” and a satisfying send-off that had Dr. Who fans howling for a sequel series.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Ten Bears,

      Are you saying that in the books the WWs’ invasion spread throughout the world? Or just that there were similar accounts of a “night” lasting many years?

      Others-like creatures are reported in other parts of the world like in Yi Ti, per the quote below from The World of Ice and Fire:

      […]some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men … and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high.

      If we want to talk about embellishment, how about “The Long Night” that lasted maybe 6-7 hours max?

      Here, and with a no-Long Night scenario, I feel such conclusions require more work to get to than accepting that there was a Long Night. I don’t think the Long Night was just 6-7 hours and narratively, I think the idea of the Long Night is too important to have it be completely fabricated or a minimal event. The Long Night may have happened in ways that were unexpected but I don’t think it can be simply done away with — especially given how GRRM feels about unity. Having a worldwide event such as the Long Night would unite the world in a common experience.

      Anyway, I’d been thinking that in the real world several cultures and civilizations have similar stories about a great flood, a great prophet, or a messianic savior. I’m not sure if they originated independently, or from the same person or event.

      Well, I don’t think that’s quite the same and this is where I think extra work has to be done in order to eliminate a Long Night from ever happening (ie. more assumptions). Various accounts from different parts of Planetos report an event with quite a few similar details within the same timeframe. With the stories you’re referring to, one or two details may line up but with the Long Night…

      (From The World of Ice and Fire)

      AS THE FIRST MEN established their realms following the Pact, little troubled them save their own feuds and wars, or so the histories tell us. It is also from these histories that we learn of the Long Night, when a season of winter came that lasted a generation—a generation in which children were born, grew into adulthood, and in many cases died without ever seeing the spring. Indeed, some of the old wives’ tales say that they never even beheld the light of day, so complete was the winter that fell on the world.

      While this last may well be no more than fancy, the fact that some cataclysm took place many thousands of years ago seems certain. Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru.

      According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

      It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R’hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return.

      In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey’s tail.

      Alt Shift X does a comprehensive look at the Others here, which I definitely urge you to watch if you won’t read the books (which I get why but I think that results in a limitation of information).

        Quote  Reply

    41. Ten Bears: I didn’t really watch Doctor Who very much before or after that one season.

      My dad is a devoted Whovian and has been ever since he was a kid. The first memory my mum’s father has of my dad while my parents were dating is my dad saying a quick ‘hi’ to them before slinking off to his basement cave to “watch Dr. Who”. If you ask my grandpa any characteristic about my dad, the answer will always be, “Dr. Who.” XD

      I’m not sure if the outside-the-box interpretation of the prophecy in that clip was the definitive solution.

      I think it’s a good demonstration of fan theory back and forth. Admittedly, though, if somebody told me, “It fits perfectly and you know it, that would quicken the wear and tear on my patience and I’d have something to say about what I “know” 😉 Nonetheless, I have seen people say similar things to others in fan debates… and it is a great line for a television scene!

        Quote  Reply

    42. Adrianacandle,

      ”Yes. Still, in order to do this — and I say this gently — I think one also needs to be familiar with the book material to be able to form speculation about the books’ lore that accounts for all of the known information while requiring the fewest assumptions per Occam’s Razot.”

      I understand and appreciate that. I am wary about mixing and matching show! and book! lore, especially after the show diverged so far from GRRM’s existing story.

      My assumption has been that whatever “clues” and details I rely on should have been presented on the show. For example, Old Nan told bedridden Bran the “scary story” about the Long Night. I went with that, and wondered how that could be reconciled with the S6e5 reveal about the WWs’ origin.

      I also figured there was no reason for the show to fabricate that origin story if it didn’t mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

      Like I suggested though, it’s difficult to identify and separate out details GRRM shared with the showrunners that haven’t appeared in the books yet, with the “synthetic connective tissue” invented solely by the showrunners.

      I did think that WW origin reveal in S6e5 was a neat twist – something GRRM might think of.
      Who knows? We likely never will.

      A few other comments/questions about the “solution” to the WWs before I leave this topic. (Maybe these are show-only questions as I’m not sure how far Bran’s 3ER training has progressed in the books):

      • If there was a first “Long Night” thousands of years ago, why couldn’t 3ER look back into the past to “see” the solution? He had many years to go exploring.
      I mean, the ToJ was a nice tourist attraction but wouldn’t a trip with Bran back to the first long night have been a better use of resources?

      • Now, I understand that show! Bran’s abilities were undeveloped and he could only see fragmentary information. Yet I don’t think he tried looking for the answer. He kept saying (eg to Benjen?) how he had to be ready for when the AotD arrived but I didn’t see him looking for solutions.

      If someone wants to cite the silly Bran Bait Plan, I’m not going to discuss it.

      • I got the impression the show was setting up Book Smart Sam + Time Traveler Bran to team up to find the way to end the existential threat. (Why did Sam steal all those books, drop out of medical school, and hightail it to WF?)

      Am I alone?

      And yes, this is me saying I would have preferred Sam & Bran to find the way to end the existential threat, rather than a leaping little ninja doing a VS dagger flip.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Ten Bears,

      My assumption has been that whatever “clues” and details I rely on should have been presented on the show. For example, Old Nan told bedridden Bran the “scary story” about the Long Night. I went with that, and wondered how that could be reconciled with the S6e5 reveal about the WWs’ origin.

      



      For the show canon, yes. However, I think this would be shaky assumption to rely on as far as the book’s narrative goes in regard to the Others. We don’t really know a ton about that at this moment.

      And I think differences are to be expected, as GRRM has also said. It’s undergoing a translation between mediums. What works in a book may not work on the show or for D&D’s vision of the show. They made the White Walkers and the Night King for more of an action-based storyline in the show whereas in the books, it isn’t. It’s more like a ghost story come to life with elusive beings picking them off one by one while turning the air so cold, it hurts to breath.

      I also figured there was no reason for the show to fabricate that origin story if it didn’t mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

      The book’s origin of the Others may not be something that GRRM has figured out yet, or it may not have worked for the show within the landscape D&D have already developed, or perhaps it would have required more to tell this particular story — more than the show could allow for (time, resources, episodes). The show has already cut down on a lot of the lore and magic in the books and these aspects are pretty crucial to the storyline of the Others.

      Like I suggested though, it’s difficult to identify and separate out details GRRM shared with the showrunners that haven’t appeared in the books yet, with the “synthetic connective tissue” invented solely by the showrunners.

      Unless it’s explicitly stated so, I think it’s impossible to determine. We just don’t know the details of the plans that were shared with D&D, what GRRM has figured out yet, what he hasn’t, or his plans for the books. D&D know. We don’t.

      If there was a first “Long Night” thousands of years ago, why couldn’t 3ER look back into the past to “see” the solution? He had many years to go exploring.
I mean, the ToJ was a nice tourist attraction but wouldn’t a trip with Bran back to the first long night have been a better use of resources?

      



      Whether there was a Long Night or not, Bran exploring what happened thousands of years ago would have been helpful anyway because that’s when all this started. If there was no Long Night at all, that’d be important note too to consider when figuring out how to deal with this and what they know/don’t know.

      Also, there might never have been “a solution” thousands of years back or at least a long-term one. It’s possible the Others could have disappeared as mysteriously as they came, with an unknown cause putting them into a thousands-years-long dormancy (this may be part of the problem in figuring out how to combat them). We’d need to know what happened to find out. Perhaps Bran will go exploring this in the books — if his powers allow him to go that far back.

 I don’t know why this didn’t happen in the show but I’m reluctant to go further as I don’t want to spark another season 8 fight. However, I think there are differences in this narrative and the details of such between the two mediums, as is to be expected.

      I got the impression the show was setting up Book Smart Sam + Time Traveler Bran to team up to find the way to end the existential threat. (Why did Sam steal all those books, drop out of medical school, and hightail it to WF?)

      It’s unknown if Sam does go to Winterfell in the books or if he’ll meet Sam again in this context. It’s possible but it’s unknown. In AFFC/ADWD, Jon sends Sam to the Citadel, where he is currently. I’m sure Sam’s findings will have a role to play but those are in the yet-to-be-published books.



      Seriously, Ten Bears, I know you don’t want to read an unfinished series (that has a high chance of remaining unfinished), I totally get that, and I know I’m risking irritating you by saying this again. Yet, given your curiosity about the books, what has happened in ASOIAF lore, etc. I think so many of your thoughts, tinfoils, and speculations in regard to the books could be helped out if you did take the plunge.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Ten Bears: as I’m not sure how far Bran’s 3ER training has progressed in the books)

      Oh, Bran’s just started in the books! 🙂

      Btw,

      I sent you an email to your WotW with the rocket photos RIP rocket -_-

        Quote  Reply

    45. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks for that Book Bran status report. I had all kinds of odd theories based on his S6 powers eg visiting the past, opening up a comm channel from the future, and frying people’s brains. However, those theories went nowhere.

      Ill check email. 🚀

        Quote  Reply

    46. Ten Bears,

      No problem! I should clarify that in the books, Bran has only started to learn greenseeing in ADWD. He has been warging Summer and Hodor for some time — Summer since ACOK, Hodor since ASOS.

      And thanks! re:rocket email 🚀

        Quote  Reply

    47. Ten Bears,

      You know, the more I think about it, I really wish they had tackled and stuck with “Bloodmoon”, they should have worked at it and made it worth watching. Let’s not forget that D&D got a second chance after the first failed GOT pilot…and we were lucky for it…

      I can’t exactly put my finger on one single overarching reason why, but I find The Long Night an infinitely more compelling and interesting subject matter/event to cover. There is something soo eerie, creepy and insanely attractive about that idea. Especially given this pandemic and what it wrought upon this world. In a smaller scale way, this pandemic was our most current version of The Long Night.

      “ Oh, my sweet summer child. What do you know about fear? Fear is for the winter when the snows fall a hundred feet deep. Fear is for the the long nights when the sun hides for years, and children are born and live and die, all in darkness. That is the time for fear, my little lord; when the white walkers move through the woods. Thousands of years ago there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts, and women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks. So is this the sort of story that you like? [watches as Bran nods] In that darkness the white walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds…” — Old Nan

      Just reading that…still gives me goosebumps…and makes me really, really want to see that depiction…because while in our day we didn’t do any of that because of COVID-19, we did get to living like moles, alone, isolated and scared of the present as well as a future that looks that much dimmer…

      I just don’t think I can muster that much excitement and interest in “House Of The Dragon” aka “The Targaryen Days Of Our Lives” soap. Also, another thing I don’t understand…if they had summoned all that talent and had everything at the ready to proceed on “Bloodmoon”, why didn’t they go for making a miniseries instead of a full-fledged, multi-season series? An eight to ten parter could have done the trick…

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    48. Ten Bears,

      Sam literally found a mountain of Dragonglass in those books that’s a pretty big deal and was the entire reason Jon even went to Dragonstone to begin with.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Sigh. Well, anyway…

      loco73, I thought you made some nice connections with our current real life situation living in a time of a pandemic and tales of the Long Night 🙂

      There is something soo eerie, creepy and insanely attractive about that idea. Especially given this pandemic and what it wrought upon this world. In a smaller scale way, this pandemic was our most current version of The Long Night.

      Just reading that…still gives me goosebumps…and makes me really, really want to see that depiction…because while in our day we didn’t do any of that because of COVID-19, we did get to living like moles, alone, isolated and scared of the present as well as a future that looks that much dimmer…

      I agree (and nicely phrased!) I think this story also presents something so mysterious, daunting, unknown, and lingering — an atmosphere I love 🙂 Well, maybe not to live in but to watch, definitely. Blood Moon was my #1 choice (but I’m happy for any new material to discuss!)

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    50. Fireblood87:
      Ten Bears,

      Sam literally found a mountain of Dragonglass in those books that’s a pretty big deal and was the entire reason Jon even went to Dragonstone to begin with.

      • Sam already knew there was dragonglass on Dragonstone. He’d known for quite a while.
      Back in S5e5 at Castle Black, Stannis explicitly told Sam there was dragonglass on Dragonstone.

      at 0:50:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZheMeLkqCTs

      (Surely, Sam conveyed this important intel to Lord Commander Jon at the time. If not, why not? Stannis’s revelation was “a pretty big deal.”

      • Sam didn’t “literally” find a mountain of dragonglass in the Citadel books. He found a map depicting a dragonglass deposit on Dragonstone. And Sam already knew there was dragonglass on Dragonstone.

      • In S7, after Sam saw the map, he sent a raven to Jon with the information. There was no need for Sam to go to WF to “help” Jon. It’s not like Sam was a valuable asset on the battlefield.
      Lord Commander Jon or King Jon should have traveled to Dragonstone or at least sent an expedition there long before S7.

      • Look, I wanted Sam to be a hero – who used his brains rather than brawn to help save the day. I thought Sam was being positioned to be such a hero. That’s why Stannis told him: “Keep reading, Samwell Tarly.”

      Some of the most enjoyable stories are those in which the action hero can’t prevail with physical force alone. It’s up to someone with book smarts to find the critical information to defeat the bad guys.

      Examples: Noah Taylor (GoT’s Locke) as the scientist-inventor in “Edge of Tomorrow,”
      and Burn Gorman (GoT’s Karl Tanner, the fooking Legend of Gin Alley) as the brainy mathematician/kaiju expert in “Pacific Rim.”

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    51. Ten Bears,

      Stannis’s line obviously wasn’t a big deal in-universe because we see absolutely no follow-up to that scene. But Sam discovering that there’s literally entire mountain of dragonglass (something that Stannis didn’t explicitly specify) under Dragonstone was definitely a big deal, considering how the events unfolded. And it was crucial because it led to Jon meeting Dany and to all the events that unfolded. Storywise, that’s obviosuly a big deal.

      Regarding Sam being a hero or heroes in general in GoT… I already spoke about this before and I’ll mention it again… The more I think of how GoT unfolded, the more I get this feeling that the protagonists in GoT are not actual “heroes” but very messed up people in first place and it was us audience/readers who wished and imagined every protagonist to undergo a personal growth development in order to become “superior self” and at the end, each protagonist would play a huge role in the puzzle that would eradicate “evil”. No matter how much they suffered or what bad happened to them, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”, right? But did that ever happen? I mean, the characters obviously grew up and became tougher and more mature but I think that at the end of the day, nobody and nothing can eradicate the scars the story inflicted upon them and I don’t think these characters can ever be “okay” again. Their innocence is gone and they all obviously have darkness in their hearts. There’s no “going back to how it used to be” after such traumatic story. That’s the vibe I’m more and more getting. Yes, I do believe they were at some sort of peace at the end but the feeling of traumatic scars was there. These characters might never be “okay” again.

      I know that’s a very dark and possibly sad interpretation of the story and I have absolutely no idea where the novels will go with the characters. But I don’t think we have any guarantee there will be happiness for main protagonists at the end or that we would actually see them reach some superior development and joining forces against WW where every character would play a firm role. Maybe it was us fans who envisioned things going that way but it was never actually there in the story. THis is the story that brought Red Wedding upon us… and Red Wedding wasn’t just a death of a protagonist, it was the most complete defeat and humiliation of a story which premise was to deliver justice to “evil”. Red Wedding was the worst possible outcome and little to nothing good at all came out of it. Book readers still hold some hope of light at the end of the tunnel, such as Robb’s wife maybe being pregnant and “The Grand Northern Conspiracy” happening that would overthrow the Boltons. But as far as the TV show is concerned… Talisa is dead and Robb’s line is extinguished and obviously, “The North Remembers” was more of a fairytale while the actual truth was way more ugly because at the end of the day, three most powerful Northern houses after Starks (Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers) were allied and represented opposition against the surviving Starks. Let’s not forget that the reason for Karstarks and Umbers to get allied with Boltons was a direct consequence of Robb’s and Jon’s actions.

      OKay, at the end, Starks did re-claim Winterfell but let’s not forget the part that Boltons/Umbers/Karstarks would have obliterated them if there wasn’t for Littlefinger saving them. Sad truth is that all the planning, all the hope for Northern loyalty and all the courage itself had very little to do with the actual outcome. The outcome definitely was a good thing but the show actually didn’t give us an empowering way towards it. ANd let’s remember the Long Night now… the ultimate battle to save the world, the biggest form of alliances that Westeros has ever seen, the most number of protagonists collaborating… oh wait, the White Walkers technically won the battle itself and it was Arya’s lucky knife that saved them. Again there was no “protagonists being piece of a big puzzle that would bring an empowering achievement”, it was a defeat for protagonists that thankfully ended in victory because Arya managed to be there on time. ANd after? Did we get the feeling of relief? No, it actually got darker and worse for protagonists because now that the main threat was gone, the conflict emerged among them and it started becoming clear they’ll end up enemies. No release at all, no feeling of mutual empowerment, just delving more and more into the depths of their messed up minds. And of course, we all know what happened to Dany… all the moments when people cheered for her, it led to “The Bells” which I up to this day label as the darkest GoT episode, darker than Red Wedding, and I don’t think any “good and empowering feeling” came out of the Bells.

      So when I look at (TV) story as a whole, maybe GoT was never meant to be an empowering heroic story. Maybe it was only in our heads as we watched it, but we were actually watching a traumatic journey of main protagonists that forever scarred them and “messed them up”. We did get a peaceful ending and all the “bad people” got what they deserved, but the WAY we achieved this peaceful ending… it wasn’t through heroism and superior character growth, it was through trauma and pain. Maybe that’s the sad truth of GoT… or maybe it’s just a theory of mine.

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    52. Ten Bears: Some of the most enjoyable stories are those in which the action hero can’t prevail with physical force alone. It’s up to someone with book smarts to find the critical information to defeat the bad guys.

      Examples: Noah Taylor (GoT’s Locke) as the scientist-inventor in “Edge of Tomorrow,”
      and Burn Gorman (GoT’s Karl Tanner, the fooking Legend of Gin Alley) as the brainy mathematician/kaiju expert in “Pacific Rim.”

      There are certainly more examples I know of that escape me because my brain is clogged but Apollo 13 immediately comes to mind as a notable example of this 🙂

      The astronauts were rescued because, largely thanks to Ken Mattingly’s brain, Mission Control was able to figure out a re-entry protocol on the extremely limited power they had available.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      …the White Walkers technically won the battle itself and it was Arya’s lucky knife that saved them.

      Well, you could say Oberyn technically won the trial by combat…until he didn’t. Oberyn and NK, showboating instead of taking care of business.

      “….it was a defeat for protagonists that thankfully ended in victory because Arya managed to be there on time.”

      That’s why you don’t stop trying to win until the game clock hits 0:00. I think it was that great philosopher Yogi Berra who once played said: “It ain’t over til it’s over.”

      Or maybe Yogi said “Nobody expects the ASNAWP Inquisition!” I forget which.

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    54. Ten Bears,

      Here’s why you don’t give up even if it seems you’re seconds away from certain defeat..

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7gNgTuAgNc

      That’s the Army of the Dead in the black uniforms. The backed up Alliance forces are in white & aqua. Arya’s the one with her head being twisted as she gets off a no-look pass. That guy in black on the sidelines at 0:58? That’s the NK, stunned that he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

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    55. I now regret mentioning the Long Night.

      Ten Bears, on the topic of HotD, any ideas for Team Green/Team Black merchandise? 🙂 Maybe marbled for those who are divided? What about for those who are Team Neutral and Just Came to See the Drama?

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    56. Adrianacandle,

      Apollo 13! Great example. My three favorite parts were:

      (1) When the scientists had to figure out a way for the astronauts to make an air filtration system out of whatever junk they had onboard;

      (2) The part you mentioned, where the scientists, and astronaut in the simulator, had to figure out a way to run the returning module’s electrical systems on the power it took to run a coffee maker; and of course…

      (3) This part:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfOlohfMrvY

      🧑🏻‍🚀

        Quote  Reply

    57. Ten Bears: (3) This part:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfOlohfMrvY

      🧑🏻‍🚀

      LOL! XD

      When I first started up the clip, I thought this was going to be my favourite scene where Mission Control is waiting to hear from Apollo 13 to see if they were able to survive re-entry. When they’ve given up hope after the expected time period has elapsed, Apollo 13 comes in and the cheers. Such a great moment 😀

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    58. I watched all of GOT twice before the disastrous final 2 episodes in season 8. Turning Daenerys into a crazed psychopathic mass murder of children for NO RATIONAL REASON has to be the dumbest idea imaginable for the ending of this epic story. Given that fiasco, I feel ZERO interest in anything to do with GOT until they repair the damage they did at the end of season 8.

      Why does HBO not opt to do an additional episode of GOT????? Daenerys wakes up from the nightmare original ending in terror. The final sequence unfolds in similar fashion without the massacre of civilians. Daenerys recognizes Jon as the rightful ruler of Westeros. Jon and Deanerys call for elections that elect Jon as the new ruler of Westeros. Daenerys is the beloved heroine who freed Westeros and selflessly gives up power for the good of everyone and goes on the raise her daughter from her relations with Jon. Future major conflicts arise with evil forces from Essos or West of Westeros.

      The additional episode would 1) attract massive audiences, 2) repair the damage with disillusioned fans of the original ending, 3) would not cost a lot to produce because it reuses a lot of prior footage, 4) would make everyone happy and 4) it would allow the original story line to continue into the future which would be much more interesting than prequels where we already know the end game.

      Yes, this obvious scenario will never happen because HBO is clueless. Have fun with the uninspiring prequels!

        Quote  Reply

    59. Adrianacandle:

      …on the topic of HotD, any ideas for Team Green/Team Black merchandise? 🙂 Maybe marbled for those who are divided? What about for those who are Team Neutral and Just Came to See the Drama?

      I’ve got a couple of ideas for Team Green vs. Team Black merch. The problem so far is that Emma D’Arcy has been so successful in avoiding leaving an electronic footprint that there are virtually no images online for a Princess Rhaenyra/Team Black tee shirt, hoodie, etc.
      (Some fans have photoshopped Emma D’Arcy’s face into long blonde braids and applied “digital makeup” but those images no longer look like Emma D’Arcy.)

      Olivia Cooke, on the other hand, has so many online photos from so many different movies and magazines, with appearances ranging from tomboyish to glamorous. Even before HotD promo shots or set photos come out, there’s a wife selection of images to adapt into Queen Alicent/Team Green merch. (I already came across a pretty good fan-made Reddit image of Olivia Cooke as Queen Alicent, with a faux HotD logo in the corner.)

      As for Team Neutral or more spectators? I don’t know. Maybe 1/2 green, 1/2 black attire?
      Oh, better yet, don’t they make “holographic” fabric these days that changes color or reflects a different image depending on the angle? Or thermally sensitive fabrics that change color depending on body temperature?
      If so. there could be garments that alternate in color between black and green for fans on the fence who go back and forth in their allegiances. Or, a holographic image* that alternates between Rhaenyra and Alicent depending on the angle.

      …….
      * I’m not sure if that is the right term. I’m thinking about certain US Postal Service stamps that shift between two images, or coffee mugs with images that appear or disappear when filled with hot coffee.
      …..
      I’ve got some preliminary ideas for Team Green merchandise. To be honest

      if both the Queen and the Princess turn out to be nasty characters, and their respective supporters engage in escalating, retaliatory torture and killing…I’m not sure I’d want memorabilia of either side. After all, only those Daenerys fans with a warped sense of humor wore their “Mother of Dragons” and “Breaker of Chains” tee shirts on Monday after “The Bells” aired the night before.

      Maybe I’ll post preliminary suggestions later for comment

      and ridicule

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    60. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      ”Stannis’s line [that there’s Dragonglass on Dragonstone] obviously wasn’t a big deal in-universe because we see absolutely no follow-up to that scene.”

      Well, then they should’ve excised that line from the script so fans like me didn’t consider it a “hung gun” or important factoid.
      I remember reading historical accounts of the California and Alaska gold rush. (Maybe I’m thinking of Jack London books?) The mere mention that someone had found tiny grains of gold in the sand on a beach was enough to spur thousands of prospectors to head to the shoreline to pan for gold.
      On GoT as of S5e5, Sam & Jon knew Dragonglass was more valuable than gold.
      That King Stannis, not known for prevarication, said straight out “We’ve got Dragonglass on Dragonstone” should have been
      “a big deal in-universe.” That there was “absolutely no follow-up to that scene” didn’t erase its significance – at least for me. If there was some explanation for Sam not conveying Stannis’s info to Jon, or Jon not acting on it, that should’ve been clarified on-screen.

      I was going to pose an analogy to swarms of people in S. Florida responding to reports of Covid vaccine availability, but that’s too sensitive a topic right now.

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    61. Mr Derp: Glad to hear he’s one of the lucky ones to get a vaccine this early.I read the not a blog thing too.I understand what he’s saying, but it’s kind of a weird thing to say, IMO.

      He’s devastated (understandably so) that he’s lost friends due to the Pandemic, but he feels the need to post about this on his blog as if this is unique to him and as if millions of others aren’t going through the exact same thing.Then he closes his statement with an “angry face” emoji like he’s 14 years old or something.

      It is what it is, but it just all comes off as self-indulgent and attention-seeking to me.Though I guess that’s what most of social media is used for.Of course, YMMV.

      Yes, I can see that it was self indulgent. But I know the feeling. I just had my first shot last week. I had a 60th Birthday recently and my state expanded it to 60+. Now it’s already opened up to 50+ a week later and I’m getting a ton of emails about new vaccination centers. I’m thinking within a month it’s going to be totally open and my kids will be able to be vaccinated too. I understand the self indulgence feelings. It comes across as insensitive to others. For myself, I didn’t post about it at all (until this entry!!). I’m just going to share a little. For one, I didn’t want people to know I turned 60!! I haven’t turned totally gray yet, and most people at work are 20+ years younger than me. They don’t think I’m that old and they could look at me differently and start thinking, ‘Hummm. I wonder if he’s thinking about retiring soon. Maybe we should recruit his replacement!’ But I was also saw a brightness that was accompanied by a tingly feeling I have not felt. I didn’t realize how shut down I have been feeling. The reality that soon I could just go sit in the mall and eat lunch around other people and not think twice about it is huge. And also just being able to visit with my kids at their house is huge. I know others in the USA have already been getting back to normal anyway, but we have stayed pretty locked down in our house. It’s a feeling you want to share with the world, but at the same time, I feel bad self indulging (as you say), because most people still have long waits before they will get the same feeling. I’ve always felt that WotW is a safe community to express myself, so I’m letting some out here. I was hopeful by the president’s speech last night that the whole country will be able to get vaccinated soon (for those who choose to get the vaccine). I’m also hoping that everyone chooses to get it. I’m also very happy that GRRM got the vaccine. With his weight and age he was probably at the highest risk. But I can see how his comments come across when most people aren’t even eligible for the vaccine yet. I’m glad the President made a speech last night to give folks a goal of May for when it will be available to everyone. The Unknown is what often stresses people out. And my guess is that we’re luckier than most in the world on how fast it will be available, so hopefully it’s ok to let out some excitement but still be mindful that most won’t be able to get it for quite some time.

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    62. Ten Bears,

      I wouldn’t get too concerned with the GoT police. They’re going to be fighting these battles forever.

      I believe the same certain posters will be here in the year 2050, forever scanning the WOTW website to make sure no one says anything about this fictional show they don’t 100% agree with. It’s pathetic.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Ten Bears,

      The problem so far is that Emma D’Arcy has been so successful in avoiding leaving an electronic footprint that there are virtually no images online for a Princess Rhaenyra/Team Black tee shirt, hoodie, etc.
      (Some fans have photoshopped Emma D’Arcy’s face into long blonde braids and applied “digital makeup” but those images no longer look like Emma D’Arcy.)

      She is a case of internet-invisible. Apart from a few online interviews, I can’t find anything of her.

      Yeah, I’ve seen a few photoshops too. I think the issue is there aren’t really any high res photos of D’Arcy to really do this with.

      As for Team Neutral or more spectators? I don’t know. Maybe 1/2 green, 1/2 black attire?
      Oh, better yet, don’t they make “holographic” fabric these days that changes color or reflects a different image depending on the angle? Or thermally sensitive fabrics that change color depending on body temperature?
      If so. there could be garments that alternate in color between black and green for fans on the fence who go back and forth in their allegiances. Or, a holographic image* that alternates between Rhaenyra and Alicent depending on the angle.

      I don’t know about fabric that changes imagery per temperature but I know there’s fabric that changes colour per temperature. However, that has more to do with a person’s physical body temperature than mind so I don’t think they have any kind of control over that… I doubt this would work for clothing but something with acrylic and LED could be done? (Although, a “black light” is purple and makes white things glow?)

      A holographic image is, as far as I know, dependent on the angle rather than the fan’s win. I suppose something digital could be done to accommodate? However, again, not great for clothes. Yeah, this is tough! 🙂

      I think Team Neutral could be clear…? I think tinting the clear green or black is a challenge.

      if both the Queen and the Princess turn out to be nasty characters, and their respective supporters engage in escalating, retaliatory torture and killing…I’m not sure I’d want memorabilia of either side.

      You’re right and per the source material, they’re both neck in neck (in my opinion) for nastiness and some of the stuff each does is… well, yikes. If something like this were done, I think it’d have to be done early on when the sides were “declared” and would be time sensitive. Then again, saying all this, it is quite weird to take sides in a war as if this were a sporting event.

      On Alicent’s side, I think her daughter Helaena is among the most sympathetic.

      On Rhaenyra’s side, I think Nettles is among the most sympathetic.

      I guess, for me, Team Nettles is the only answer. What happens to poor Helaena is beyond horrific.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Tron79,

      Happy birthday!

      For one, I’ve never thought 60 is retirement age — my parents are both in their 60s (vice principal and scientist) and still working without an end in sight 🙂

      And I’m glad you’re able to get vaccinated! I’m glad GRRM was too.

      In Canada, I think I’ll be in the last group for vaccination (autumn ETA) but I’m good with that since I’m pretty low risk. I’m happy about the prioritizing as, for example, I don’t want my 90-year old grandparents to get sick. I told Grandpa that per this one Netflix documentary, humans are supposed to live until 120 and he’s obligated to live that long. He looked at me like I had two heads…

        Quote  Reply

    65. Adrianacandle,

      I love your 120 line. For some reason people went from living 700 years to 120 according to the scriptures. Well I sort of know the reason that it says but I don’t think I believe about living 1000 years unless I go with the ancient astronaut theories :). I’m watching a documentary as I writing this on Hulu. It’s called Kid90 by the actress who played Punky Brewster. She happens to document everything in her teens and took a video camera everywhere. Some of the memories are very difficult. Perhaps memories fade for a reason that it’s hard to move forward if you can see everything so clearly about the past. There is an episode of Dr. Who starring Maisie Williams. Ten Bears talks about her Dr Who role a lot. She gets immortality and after living thousands of years she can’t remember it all so she keeps hundreds of journals. I don’t know what that has to do with what you said but I certainly understand wanting as much time with our loved ones. And there is something to be said for the blessing of memories fading over the years so we can keep moving forward. I’m going to read through all of the long night posts. There are a bunch of posts here! I’m looking forward to the future with any show they want to produce from Asoiaf world. I do think that they passed on the blood moon series in favor of HotD because HotD had source material. They usually take the easier route.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Tron79,

      I love your 120 line. For some reason people went from living 700 years to 120 according to the scriptures. Well I sort of know the reason that it says but I don’t think I believe about living 1000 years unless I go with the ancient astronaut theories :).

      Ancient astronaut theories? 🙂

      And 700??

      With that documentary (I think it was from the ‘Explained’ series), it was also said that people tend to get bored around the 100 yr mark so that final 20 may have a diminished quality of life. It’s theorized that 100 years (with good and steady health) gives people enough time to do and explore everything they’re interested in. After that, everything starts to become stale.

      Some of the memories are very difficult. Perhaps memories fade for a reason that it’s hard to move forward if you can see everything so clearly about the past.

      I think this is true. Also, I’ve seen it explained that the more somebody references a memory in their head, the stronger that connection remains. Per that theory, happier stuff tends to be referenced more often (but then again, that depends on the individual. If one likes holding a grudge, well…)

      However, going by this, rarely-referenced memories fade more quickly. Also, there are those who mentally block traumatic experiences from conscious memory.

      But wow, making a record of even the difficult stuff. If a texting conversation goes wrong, I delete it XD

      And there is something to be said for the blessing of memories fading over the years so we can keep moving forward.

      Absolutely. In my practice, I did a lot of work focused on memory and the transience of it. Details get lost, twisted, or even imagined sometimes. Other details remain stronger. It’s kind of like a watercolour — some parts are softer, less vibrant, more blurry. Other parts are sharper, crisp, and retain their original colour.

      I’m looking forward to the future with any show they want to produce from Asoiaf world. I do think that they passed on the blood moon series in favor of HotD because HotD had source material. They usually take the easier route.

      Me too!

      And that’s an excellent possible reason as to why they went forward with HotD over Blood Moon. I never considered that before. The history required for Blood Moon doesn’t have a lot of (or much at all) information as of yet.

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    67. Tron79,

      ”Yes, I can see that it was self indulgent. But I know the feeling. I just had my first shot last week. I had a 60th Birthday recently and my state expanded it to 60+. Now it’s already opened up to 50+ a week later and I’m getting a ton of emails about new vaccination centers. I’m thinking within a month it’s going to be totally open and my kids will be able to be vaccinated too…”

      I’m happy for you! Now if Florida could only get its act together maybe Con of Thrones can take place in Orlando in a few months. (Right now the vaccine rollout here is a patchwork of different sites with uncertain eligibility requirements. Age 65 is still the cutoff

      unless your county is “deep red” or your community is full of rich GOP donors, in which case you’ve already gotten easy access to the vaccine months ago.)]/spoiler]
      But it does look like Uncle Joe’s getting things under control.

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    68. Tron79,

      “The Unknown is what often stresses people out. And my guess is that we’re luckier than most in the world on how fast it will be available, so hopefully it’s ok to let out some excitement but still be mindful that most won’t be able to get it for quite some time.”

      What stresses me out is that

      there’s a significant % of the population who refuse to get vaccinated even if it’s a available, and there’s a certain faux news channel feeding people anti-vax propaganda. Until a most of us are vaccinated nobody will really be safe. More than half a million people dead and still there are Covid deniers spouting nonsense on TV.

      It’s all kind of a shame since the vaccines are a godsend: a quick way out of this Hellscape if only everyone would get onboard.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Tron 79, happy birthday. Mine’s on St Paddy’s Day – so next week. It’s no secret I’m not that much younger than GRRM, less than a year so folk can do the maths so you are young compared to me. I mentioned on an earlier occasion I had my first Covid jab in February which made me sleepy but not achy or ill. The health service seems to be doing the organising in my neck of the woods but I’ve heard nothing about a second jab.

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    70. Ten Bears,

      What stresses me out is that

      there’s a significant % of the population who refuse to get vaccinated even if it’s a available, and there’s a certain faux news channel feeding people anti-vax propaganda. Until a most of us are vaccinated nobody will really be safe. More than half a million people dead and still there are Covid deniers spouting nonsense on TV.

      It’s all kind of a shame since the vaccines are a godsend: a quick way out of this Hellscape if only everyone would get onboard.

      Yes. That’s the thing. Most of the population needs to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to kick in and not only protect the population as a whole, but protect those who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons — basically, this article.

      Otherwise, if the virus is allowed to incubate and evolve, it can evolve to overcome the vaccine as well and put everyone in danger again. There are already covid variants now which are stronger and more dangerous than the original covid virus because it’s been given so much opportunity to evolve and become stronger. Viruses are alive, changing, growing. They aren’t stagnant — but this is something covid deniers and anti-vaxxers don’t seem to acknowledge or understand.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Adrianacandle,

      ”Then again, saying all this, it is quite weird to take sides in a war as if this were a sporting event.

      I don’t know. Some football fans get carried away, almost as if the team winning or losing is a life or death proposition for the fans. They’re no different from the GoT fans at the Burlington Bar who cheered like crazy when

      Arya shanked the NK; when the guy carrying the log in S6e7 cold open turned around to show his face;
      when Arya cut Walder’s throat; or when Arya sliced LF’s neck. [spoiler] You’d think their team just won the Super Bowl on the last play. Of course, their stunned silence at the end of “The Door” would make you think their team just lost the Super Bowl.

      P.S. Have you ever seen the movie [spoiler]“Silver Linings Playbook”? There’s a subtheme about obsessed football fans. And of course, an Oscar-winning performance by Jennifer Lawrence including several “perpetually rewatchable” scenes. (I just loved the scene when she put Robert DeNiro in his place when he accused her of messing with the Eagles’ juju.)

        Quote  Reply

    72. Adrianacandle,

      ”…excellent possible reason as to why they went forward with HotD over Blood Moon.

      I never considered that before. The history required for Blood Moon doesn’t have a lot of (or much at all) information as of yet.”

      Or (*dons tinfoil hat*) the new HBO chief

      learned that the big secret of “The Long Night” was that the White Walkers were the victims and humans were the villains, and immediately pulled the plug.

      Who’d want to watch that? 😉

        Quote  Reply

    73. Ten Bears,

      I don’t know. Some football fans get carried away, almost as if the team winning or losing is a life or death proposition for the fans. They’re no different from the GoT fans at the Burlington Bar[…]

      Admittedly, I’ve only been to one sporting event in my life and I’m afraid I didn’t get it.

      When I was 16, I went to visit my friend in Las Vegas and her dad (who nicknamed me ‘Canada’) got us tickets to a football game. I was happy about getting to dress up in UNLV football merch because that was a new wardrobe experience for me but as for the actual game… yeah, didn’t get it. There were creative cheers from the crowd, including picket fence pieces! And there was also fierce cheering with no picket fence pieces! I liked the pom poms. Afterward, I made A and I go around the stadium as much as we could to pick up the abandoned pom poms — they were often beer drenched as they were rescued from beer puddles and god knows what else. Still, we gave them a good bleach bath. Her dad thought we were nuts. We got enough to make a pom pom pile to belly flop into 😀

      Anyway, fair point. Although, the war between Alicent and Rhaenyra… it goes pretty far into some dark places.

      P.S. Have you ever seen the movie [spoiler]“Silver Linings Playbook”? There’s a subtheme about obsessed football fans. And of course, an Oscar-winning performance by Jennifer Lawrence including several “perpetually rewatchable” scenes. (I just loved the scene when she put Robert DeNiro in his place when he accused her of messing with the Eagles’ juju.)

      I haven’t! I’ve been meaning to. I really love Jennifer Lawrence. My mum is an obsessive football fan (Winnipeg Blue Bombers! I think that’s the football team? When I wanted to go as a cheerleader for Halloween, I always had to dress in blue and gold. That’s all I know. That was the stipulation for any of us if we wanted to dress up as a cheerleader), as was her second husband, as was my second sister. I’ll watch out for the obsessive football fans subtheme.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Semi-Off Topic
      (but maybe not off-topic at all)

      Con of Thrones is scheduled to take place August 6-8, 2021 in Orlando, Florida.

      https://www.conofthrones.net/

      If people down here in Florida listen to the scientists instead of the quacks and get vaccinated, we can meet Uncle Joe’s target for return to normalcy by July 4.

      If that happens…I’m thinking that Con of Thrones will surely add HotD cast members to the guest lineup. A show’s actors attending cons is a big part of promotion for a series, isn’t it?
      By then, perhaps HotD will have cast actors for Nettles and other anticipated characters.

      If Con of Thrones announces that Emma D’Arcy and Olivia Cooke will attend,

      don’t blame me if the audience is divided into Green and Black factions.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Adrianacandle,

      ”I really love Jennifer Lawrence.”

      ⚠️ Spoiler Alert
      Here’s the scene from “Silver Linings Playbook” I was talking about. If you plan on seeing the movie
      you may want to refrain from watching the clip though I wouldn’t necessarily consider it a “major” spoiler.

      Set-up:

      Pat Sr. (Robert DeNiro) blames Tiffany (Jennifer Lawrence) for the Philadelphia Eagles losing to the New York Giants. And Pat Jr. (Bradley Cooper), who blew off dance rehearsal with Tiffany to go to the football game, got into a fight with rowdy fans in the stadium parking lot.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og36vWGn5CU

      My favorite part:

      Pat Jr. “Wow. How did you know all that stuff?”
      (Tiffany flicks open beer bottle)
      Tiffany: “I did my research.”

      By the way, the movie (also) deals with mental illness.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Ten Bears: By the way, the movie (also) deals with mental illness.

      I did see that when I was looking up movies featuring mental illness so I really need to watch.

      And thanks for the quotes!

      OT rocket advice questions 🚀:

      Tomorrow, I go see if anything can be done about the rocket. If I have to resort to glued solid wood planks and a planer, what do you think about red stain for the fins? I’d like to use a pretty light hardwood, like birch or white maple. Recommendations? Should I go for 3/4″ thickness so I can plane it down to 0.5″?

        Quote  Reply

    77. Mr Derp,

      Actually, I think it’s much more likely that the same posters will be on here whinging about a fictional television show not ending the way they wanted it to and getting upset when people push back against their weak criticisms. Talk about pathetic.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Young Dragon:
      Mr Derp,

      Actually, I think it’s much more likely that the same posters will be on here whinging about a fictional television show not ending the way they wanted it to and getting upset when people push back against their weak criticisms. Talk about pathetic.

      In my observations (and two years post GoT finale), I think a lot of us are looking forward to discussing new material or speculating unknown book lore and have made efforts to do so 🙂 I, for one, don’t enjoy the same arguments that don’t go anywhere new so I try to focus on other stuff. I think we’ve all got our lines drawn in the sand about the final season and I doubt rehashing the same fights will lead to anywhere new. I think it’ll be great to discuss new material via HotD and (hopefully) Dunk & Egg. I’m pretty excited to see how the show expands upon the textbook-like worldbooks to create a fully fleshed story 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    79. Adrianacandle: In my observations (and two years post GoT finale), I think a lot of us are looking forward to discussing new material or speculating unknown book lore 🙂 I, for one, don’t enjoy the same arguments that don’t go anywhere new so I try to focus on other stuff. I think we’ve all got our lines drawn in the sand about the final season and I doubt rehashing the same fights will lead to anywhere new. I think it’ll be great to discuss new material via HotD and (hopefully) Dunk & Egg. I’m pretty excited to see how the show expands upon the textbook-like worldbooks to create a fully fleshed story 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    80. Ten Bears,

      He didn’t know there was enough for an entire army. He also says that Stannis mentioned it but he does think it was an entire mountain of it.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Adrianacandle,

      ”Anyway, fair point. Although, the war

      between Alicent and Rhaenyra… it goes pretty far into some dark places.”

      I’m going to go far out on a limb here and suggest that HotD [spoiler]may tone down some of the ugliness. Whether fans considered the downfall of Daenerys to be brill**nt or bullsh*t, and whether the Targ 50-50 madness gene caused Dany to suffer a psychotic break, it was depressing to watch the presumptive heroine turn into a delusional mass murderer.

      I’m not so sure fans will have the appetite to watch

      a rehash of the Good Queen breaking bad or Targ Princess going mad.

      If latter seasons of HotD

      become a steady diet of torture porn, people are going to stop watching. GoT got away with it because the shock was part of the show’s “subverting tropes” novelty. That won’t be novel the second time around.

      And let me say this about

      Olivia Cooke: Thus far she’s cultivated a positive image in the roles she’s played. Taking on new challenges and playing morally complex characters is understandable. Fans might not be so thrilled.

      Even with all of the mayhem, cruelty and backstabbing on GoT

      there was still room for compassion and for heroes and “good guys,” even flawed. I don’t know how “dark” HotD can get before fans get tired of it and jump ship.

      GoT tweaked some book characters so they came off more sympathetic on the show, eg Tyrion.

      Why wouldn’t HotD do likewise?

      Factor in the glumness of real life

      in 2020, and HotD’s producers might think about lightening up the source material’s depressing elements.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Ten Bears,

      I’m going to go far out on a limb here and suggest that HotD may tone down some of the ugliness. Whether fans considered the downfall of Daenerys to be brill**nt or bullsh*t, and whether the Targ 50-50 madness gene caused Dany to suffer a psychotic break, it was depressing to watch the presumptive heroine turn into a delusional mass murderer.

      I don’t think that kind of controversy will happen in HotD. For one, I think the difference here is we’ve got the source material, we know how this ends and how this unfolds for each character. Book readers won’t be shocked. Second, based on the source material alone, I don’t think Alicent or Rhaenyra could be viewed as a heroine by the audience at any point (although, Rhaenyra used to be called “the realm’s delight” when she was a child but that was due to her looks and lively personality). They both have strong similarities with Cersei in different ways while Otto sort of reflects Tywin. Third, the conflict is absolutely evident from the beginning, it’s always about power and who gets to be heir: Rhaenyra is made Viserys’s heir to prevent Daemon from becoming king (who Rhaenyra ends up marrying anyway as her second husband). Meanwhile, when Rhaenyra’s mother and infant brother dies, Alicent marries Viserys knowing Rhaenyra is Viserys’s heir but expects him to change his will. Viserys refuses. Conflict activated. Team Green vs. Team Black. Then they each declare sides, war ensures, and they keep doing worse and worse crap to each other and to their families.

      It’s a claimant war between two women who were raised in luxury.

      Olivia Cooke: Thus far she’s cultivated a positive image in the roles she’s played. Taking on new challenges and playing morally complex characters is understandable. Fans might not be so thrilled.

      Well, while this story may not be for everyone, I think this kind of thing worked on Breaking Bad. On Breaking Bad, you didn’t have a ton of “heroes”. You had morally complex, troubled, and conflicted human beings who occupied all spaces on the spectrum with some exceptions. So I think this story can work if done well.

      Morally complex characters who resort to ruthless means can have compassion and significant depth of feeling. They can love their kids, they can love their families, they can still have compassion for certain people, they may truly believe what they’re doing is right. Maybe they won’t be motivated by just power. However, I don’t think it’d be right for either Alicent or Rhaenyra (or Daemon) to be transformed into “good guys”.

      Perhaps they’ll bump up Nettles’ role. Maybe Halaena will feature more.

      However, we are looking at a particularly dark part of Targaryen history. Perhaps the darkest.

      GoT tweaked some book characters so they came off more sympathetic on the show, eg Tyrion.

      Why wouldn’t HotD do likewise?

      Personally, I wasn’t a fan of this direction for Tyrion since he seems like such a different character from his book 5 counterpart. I don’t think he’ll stay as dark as he was in book 5, I think Penny will help him find the light again, but I’ll stop there. I may email you my thoughts if you’d like and what I think will happen with him going forward, especially in conjunction with the Young Griff story. I’ve discussed this with Kevin a ton.

      Factor in the glumness of real life

      in 2020, and HotD’s producers might think about lightening up the source material’s depressing elements.

      I think they can do this without changing the characters. They can add in characters of their own, give these characters senses of humor for levity, give them moments of bonding, make them human. We’ve only seen their textbook versions which leaves a lot out 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    83. Ten Bears,

      I’m not so sure fans will have the appetite to watch a rehash of the Good Queen breaking bad or Targ Princess going mad. If latter seasons of HotD become a steady diet of torture porn, people are going to stop watching. GoT got away with it because the shock was part of the show’s “subverting tropes” novelty. That won’t be novel the second time around.

      Well, first, HotD may attract a different audience than GoT’s.

      Second, I don’t think that’s what will happen in HotD. It doesn’t sound like a rehash. The wars and conflict aren’t really relegated only to the latter seasons (although they do ramp up during the war). Plus, I’m sure it won’t be just war, torture, war.

      Alicent is never really a “Good Queen”. She wants control of the throne and doesn’t have any noble intentions for it. She just wants power. She married Viserys, knowing Viserys made his daughter his heir, but expects him to revert his will when she has a son.

      Rhaenyra doesn’t really go mad either but slowly becomes more and more paranoid and mistrustful. Her grudge against Alicent begins early-on because Alicent is trying to take what Viserys very publicly promised to Rhaenyra, what Rhaenerys was raised by her king and father to believe she’ll be one day — queen. She becomes mistrustful over a period of time with her wanting to get rid of certain threats after a series of events. For instance, after two defect from Team Black to Team Green, she hears a rumor of Daemon and Nettles sleeping together so she wants Nettles gone (this idea is fed to her by Mysaria, who convinces Rhaenyra it’s true). Thus the hunt for Nettles. Earlier, people start regarding her less and less because she starts to lose her looks at the ancient age of 20 post-pregnancy and then the common people lose faith in her because she doesn’t run the city very well and encounters more problems (some of which are Team Green’s fault and a deliberate sabotage on her rule). It’s a series of stuff which unfolds over a period of time.

      I also don’t expect it will become a steady diet of torture porn. I mean, these characters do horrible things to each other but because the source material is essentially a worldbook and two short stories that read like textbooks, there’s a lot of opportunity for fleshing these characters out and giving them humanizing characteristics and moments in between the horror — moments in which they are human.

      Of course, again, this may not be for everyone but I can think of a few people who’d enjoy this. Honestly, HotD wasn’t my first choice but I think what Tron said made sense. HotD has completed source material, a story GRRM has figured out.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Ten Bears,

      But also, at the end of the day, it is what it is. We don’t get much say. I’d say there is an audience and appetite for just about everything, including the kind of show HotD looks to be, but there’s also a lot of opportunity for HotD to expand on the completed source material and flesh out these characters.

      Currently, they exist as fictional historical characters, sketches — and those are great subjects for development, making them human, giving them definable personality traits, senses of humor, palpable emotions and all without changing who they are in the source material. Sometimes, the most despicable characters can be fun (Cersei!) I think it can work. While I anticipate a thematically dark series, I don’t think it’s gotta be torture porn 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    85. Adrianacandle,

      ”However,

      we are looking at a particularly dark part of Targaryen history. Perhaps the darkest.”

      First of all, I can’t disagree with anything you wrote.
      Maybe it’s just me. I reached my DSP (Dragon Saturation Point) sometime around mid S7 of GoT, and I had lost any curiosity about Targaryen history before Jon Snow showed he had no curiosity about his Targaryen history.

      Further. knowing now that the supposed “last Targaryen” got put down after going off the deep end, and the actual “last Targaryen” renounced his royal name and disappeared into anonymity in the northern frontier, kind of dampens my interest in Targ history.

      I’m sure book readers will be thrilled to see Fire & Blood characters come to life. Will the casual audience be as excited? I don’t know.

      I suppose the stories would have to stand on their own, whether the family’s name is Targaryen or something else.

      Now, if they

      brought back Rory McCann as the primogenitor of House Clegane, I’d stop whinging and shut up about everything.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Ten Bears,

      Well, it might attract a different audience, it may not. Perhaps this show won’t interest you and that’s fine. However, I think casual viewers have moved on long, long ago. We’re two years out and we’re still here. We are not casuals 🙂 But I don’t imagine casuals are even thinking much about the final season any more or have dwelled on it much. Casual viewers weren’t really online dissecting theories, scenes, or coming up with speculation like we do. They just watched week to week, that’s it, maybe have discussed a few things at work until the next ep. They weren’t taking much part in the online fandom which is why they’re casual fans. When I think of casual viewers, I think of my local friends, my mum, my aunt, coworkers for whom GoT was just another show they liked to watch from week to week, enjoyed it, and that’s it.

      Like me and Snowpiercer or Handmaid’s Tale. I enjoy the shows, look forward to them when they’re airing, but I’m not an active participant in the fandom. I barely know the actors’ names. Many casual viewers may not know these details either.

      So on that front, I think it’ll be fine — especially since HotD will be airing three years on from 2019.

      But I also see there is still interest in Targaryen lore on Reddit and other places on the internet.

      Still, and most importantly, it depends on these new characters (whatever their names) and how well they’re able to draw us in. If they can do that, their name could be John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt and it wouldn’t matter. Just compelling characters and a good story, I think.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Adrianacandle,

      ”Still, and most importantly, it depends on these new characters (whatever their names) and how well they’re able to draw us in. If they can do that, their name could be John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt and it wouldn’t matter. Just compelling characters and a good story, I think.”

      Yes. That’s it. Exactly. You said in three concise sentences what I should’ve said all along.

      If the writing is good and the actors are charismatic, the show should be a hit.

      Can I add just one thing about

      “dark” stories? The novel, “The Silence of the Lambs,” about a serial killer on the loose and the brilliant imprisoned cannibal who helps a rookie FBI agent catch him, was as dark as you can get. Still, the movie was engrossing thanks to amazing performances by Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins, and a pretty faithful script. (The screenwriter did add one nice line of dialogue – Dr. Lecter’s last words to Clarice before hanging up the phone – that he’d love to chat longer but “I’m having an old friend for dinner.”)
      Despite the gruesomeness, the movie was (for me) immersive because of the interpersonal dynamic between Agent Starling and Dr. Lecter.

      Come to think of it,

      the one-on-one scenes of Dr. Lecter in his cell and Clarice outside the bars or partition were the kind of “high thread count” scenes that for me made GoT S4e7 my personal favorite, eg Tyrion in his cell talking to Oberyn; Tyrion talking with Bronn; etc.

      So yeah, while HotD can be about a

      dark period in Targ history, it can still be top-notch TV if written and acted well.

      Here’s hoping for the best.

      And by the old gods and the new,

      get the HotD cast and Sapochnik to Con of Thrones in August!

        Quote  Reply

    88. Ten Bears,

      Silence of the Lambs segue:

      Can I add just one thing about
      “dark” stories? The novel, “The Silence of the Lambs,” about a serial killer on the loose and the brilliant imprisoned cannibal who helps a rookie FBI agent catch him, was as dark as you can get. Still, the movie was engrossing thanks to amazing performances by Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins, and a pretty faithful script. (The screenwriter did add one nice line of dialogue – Dr. Lecter’s last words to Clarice before hanging up the phone – that he’d love to chat longer but “I’m having an old friend for dinner.”)
      Despite the gruesomeness, the movie was (for me) immersive because of the interpersonal dynamic between Agent Starling and Dr. Lecter.

      Oh, I love that movie. I can’t say how many times I’ve watched it! I’ve never thought to read the novel. I should. Jodi Foster’s Clarice and Anthony Hopkin’s Dr Lecter were absolutely perfect. Also, really great atmosphere throughout the movie. It is gruesome but I love, love, love stories like this.

      I have a friend named Clarice who I went to high school with. We were born several years before 1991 (when the movie came out, I believe) so she wasn’t named for the movie but oh god, did she grow up with Silence of the Lambs being quoted at her XD

      So yeah, while HotD can be about a

      dark period in Targ history, it can still be top-notch TV if written and acted well.

      Here’s hoping for the best.

      And by the old gods and the new,

      get the HotD cast and Sapochnik to Con of Thrones in August!

      Exactly what you say here! 😀

        Quote  Reply

    89. Adrianacandle,

      OT 🚀

      I’m afraid I don’t have experience with stains. Only paint. Nor would I know about buying [thicker] wood using a planer to reduce its thickness: I try to avoid shaving off or sanding down layers because of the difficulty in ensuring uniform thickness of the finished product. If anything, I’ll use wood that’s slightly thicker than the target thickness so that a little sanding for smoothness will get the width close to where I want it. However, if you’re experienced with a planer (I’m not) maybe that’s the way to go.

      My only additional “tip” I’d have when working with wood is to sand, seal and prime as much of the surface(s) as possible before gluing or nailing pieces together. (Obviously I don’t seal, prime and paint the portions of the surfaces that will be glued together.) That’s just my personal preference.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Ten Bears,

      Thanks!!

      OT 🚀

      My only additional “tip” I’d have when working with wood is to sand, seal and prime as much of the surface(s) as possible before gluing or nailing pieces together. (Obviously I don’t seal, prime and paint the portions of the surfaces that will be glued together.) That’s just my personal preference.

      Thanks! As for edges, in my introductory woodworking course, we had to make an edge cut cutting board with various hardwoods and for that, we used the jointer, planer, router, and table saw. I was taught to run the sides to be glued over the jointer so they were as flat as possible for gluing. However, then we’d glue, scrape off the excess, set the planer to the desired thickness and run the board through. After that, we’d sand and seal.

      But that would be for cutting boards, which typically aren’t permanently finished but have mineral oil applied.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Adrianacandle,

      A little Silence of the Lambs follow up:

      I loved the book sequel but did not like the movie adaptation. Main reason? Jodie Foster didn’t reprise her role as Clarice. Julianne Moore took over; I’m not saying she’s a bad actress. It’s just that the chemistry was missing.

      Who am I kidding.

      Jodie Foster is Clarice Starling as much as Maisie Williams is Arya Stark. Each was irreplaceable. Neither role could be re-cast once the actress inhabited it.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Ten Bears,

      🐑🐑🐑🐑

      I loved the book sequel but did not like the movie adaptation. Main reason? Jodie Foster didn’t reprise her role as Clarice. Julianne Moore took over; I’m not saying she’s a bad actress. It’s just that the chemistry was missing.
      Who am I kidding.

      Jodie Foster is Clarice Starling as much as Maisie Williams is Arya Stark. Each was irreplaceable. Neither role could be re-cast once the actress inhabited it.

      Yeah, I agree. Julianne Moore is fine but after Jodie Foster, she just wasn’t Clarice. I couldn’t really get into the follow-up movies because of that :/

        Quote  Reply

    93. Adrianacandle,

      TB: It’s like the song says: 🎶”Money, money changes everything.”

      Yes, actors can have a desire to move on. $10 million in cash has a way of suppressing that desire to move on.
      The only one I can name who’d say “F*ck off” to a courier with a satchel of cash is Rory McCann. Other actors can be persuaded by appealing to their social conscience, e.g. matching $10 million donation to charity.

      Adrianacandle: ”See, I don’t know. If the actor is comfortable and not in desperate need for money, there are more important things: especially for those who consider themselves artists and want to expand their careers, explore different roles, genres, and move on to the next stage of their career rather than going back to a character they’ve lived with for 10 years.”

      Yeah, I concede. Not everyone has a price tag.

      Some artists can turn down a big payday, explaining that “It’s not about the money. We don’t need your money. We just want to make the world dance. Forget about the price tag.”

      Or they can sing it. (How’s that for a cheap segue to a musical interlude?”)

        Quote  Reply

    94. Ten Bears: Yeah, I concede. Not everyone has a price tag.

      Some artists can turn down a big payday, explaining that “It’s not about the money. We don’t need your money. We just want to make the world dance. Forget about the price tag.”

      Or they can sing it. (How’s that for a cheap segue to a musical interlude?”)

      AMAZING segue!! XD Pitch Perfect’s cover of Price Tag started to auto-play in my head:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTtCjGqXYo

      Yeah, especially once people reach a certain level of comfort, financial security comes with options… and freedom.

      🐑

      I feel for your friend Clarice. I’m sure she got sick of hearing:
      “Have the lambs stopped screaming?”
      “Quid pro quo, Clarice.”
      … and so on.

      I’m afraid this was the most quoted line at poor Clarice XD

        Quote  Reply

    95. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ”…Just as Star Trek moved science fiction from adolescent magazines into adult living rooms, Thrones made gritty, realistic entertainment out of fantasy. Let’s hope the descendant equals the ancestor.”

      “Star Trek” was groundbreaking when it first aired, though sometimes it comes off as a little cheesy now. The vision of a peaceful future with equality and unity…was pretty radical at the time.

      What other show could mock the idiocy of racism, casting The Riddler from the Batman TV series (Frank Gorshin) as an alien with a half-black, half-white face? hating and hated by other aliens with half-white, half-black faces?

      I’ve probably mentioned that when I first heard about a Star Trek spin-off with the title “Star Trek: The Next Generation,” I thought to myself, “What a stupid name. It’s gonna suck.” Then I read they’d cast as the Captain an older, bald British actor I’d never heard of, and I thought, “WTF?”

      I was wrong. With a few exceptions the writing was excellent. The special effects were unsurpassed for a TV show. And Patrick Stewart became famous for playing Captain Picard.

      Therefore, I shouldn’t discount the possibility that the House of the Dragon prequel series may turn out to surpass the original GoT in quality and popularity.

        Quote  Reply

    96. loco73,

      Not Really Off-Topic:

      I had read a while back that HotD was supposed to commence production in April (next month).
      I believe the show is being filmed somewhere in England.*
      ……..
      * For anyone who knows, and can educate me: I never know when to use “Great Britain,” “England,” “British,” and “English.” What’s the difference?
      ……

      Anyway, does anyone know the progress of vaccine distribution over there? Will it be safe to start production next month?
      Also, I’m not sure if travel restrictions will affect the ability of cast and crew to fly in from other countries.

      Easy solution would be to designate HotD cast and crew as “essential workers” with top priority for vaccination.

      It’s not just that we should value the cultural importance of the entertainment industry. I’d rather see actors go to the front of the line than Covid-denying, mask-defying, superspreading politicians. (Sorry for venting. I saw a photograph of my spineless middle-aged GOP Senator getting his injection before any of his constituents could.)

        Quote  Reply

    97. Adrianacandle,

      ”In my observations (and two years post GoT finale), I think a lot of us are looking forward to discussing new material or speculating unknown book lore and have made efforts to do so 🙂 I, for one, don’t enjoy the same arguments that don’t go anywhere new so I try to focus on other stuff. I think we’ve all got our lines drawn in the sand about the final season and I doubt rehashing the same fights will lead to anywhere new.”

      Incidentally, about that Dr. Who clip I posted (to illustrate arguments over competing fan theories
      about ancient prophecies): That scene takes place billions of years in the future, right before the end of the universe.

      After reading what you wrote, it made my chuckle to think that millions of years from now there will still be people arguing over Season 8 of Game of Thrones.

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    98. Ten Bears,

      Dame would probably be able to talk about the vaccination process there but I’m dubious a show’s cast and crew would be designated essential workers, especially with the vaccine so high in demand :/

      If there is an issue, I think the production date will be pushed back several months until the general population is being vaccinated (here, that’s estimated to be late spring/early summer).

      Here, essential workers are anybody working in healthcare, on the frontlines with covid, grocery stores, hardware stores, etc. The rollout program in Alberta looks like:

      Health care workers, seniors born before 1946, any residents of long-term nursing homes no matter the age (happening now)

      Phase 2 involves Albertans born 1971 or before becoming eligible to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine (for seniors, this vaccine is not as effective as Moderna or the Pfizer vaccine but it’s been proven suitable for adults 18-64), while First Nations, Métis and Inuit individuals born between 1972 and 1986 being eligible to receive the same vaccine.

      Phase 2A (to receive Moderna or Pfizer):

      Albertans born 1947 to 1956, First Nations, Métis and Inuit individuals born 1971 or earlier, as well as staff and residents of senior homes who were not included in Phase 1

      The next phase after that includes people born 1971-2003 with serious health conditions to receive the vaccine and so on.

      I’m in the last group since my age isn’t in a high-risk group, I have no serious health conditions, I’m not in health care, etc. The estimated time for that is late spring/early summer. I’m, personally, anticipating fall.

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    99. Ten Bears: After reading what you wrote, it made my chuckle to think that millions of years from now there will still be people arguing over Season 8 of Game of Thrones.

      Oh, I hope we’ve moved on to new topics by then 😔The horse is no longer just dead, it’s dry dry bone by now.

      Incidentally, about that Dr. Who clip I posted (to illustrate arguments over competing fan theories
      about ancient prophecies): That scene takes place billions of years in the future, right before the end of the universe.

      Btw, what were they arguing about in that clip? I heard hybrids but I’m unaware of the context of the conversation.

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    100. Ten Bears,

      (Btw! I want to say that I appreciate the mental image you evoked! 😉 And I admit, I did miss the joke at first and only realized it after the edit window closed. I’ve just been a bit burned out on certain topics so my own humour radar has been dampened. I’m hopeful the successor shows will bring back that nice hype feeling :D)

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    101. Ten Bears: Incidentally, about that Dr. Who clip I posted (to illustrate arguments over competing fan theories
      about ancient prophecies): That scene takes place billions of years in the future, right before the end of the universe.

      After reading what you wrote, it made my chuckle to think that millions of years from now there will still be people arguing over Season 8 of Game of Thrones.

      You know, I wonder if the same can be applied to people discussing the unpublished books until the end of time? While I think we’ll be getting TWOW at some point, perhaps in 20 years (I’m calling 2040), I’m far less hopeful about ADOS or any books afterward if GRRM finds he can’t complete his story in just two more volumes? (Which will just be the cherry on top of it all…)

      The ASOIAF fandom has already discussed every theory to death — far beyond the practical end of Occam’s Razor — but them theories just keep getting crazier and crazier 🙂 It is kind of entertaining. Nowadays, in the threads of particularly… creative… theories, I’ve seen people beg GRRM to stop this madness by just giving us the next book.

      Oh, if only GRRM could…

      I actually think the ASOIAF theory train can keep running to the end of time. The stretches people can make based on a single word… With this kind of creativity, I think many of these theorycrafters could write interesting and compelling series themselves 🙂

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    102. Adrianacandle,

      ”Btw, what were they arguing about in that clip? I heard hybrids but I’m unaware of the context of the conversation.”

      While I’m not a “Whovian” and don’t know all of the canon

      (I only watched one full season when I learned Maisie Williams would be guest-starring in it)

      I believe the context of the argument about “the hybrid” was that:

      Dr. Who is a Time Lord from the planet Gallefrey. (I probably misspelled that.)
      There’s an ancient prophecy or collective intelligence prediction on Gallefrey that someday a “hybrid” of two warrior races will destroy the planet (or the universe; I forget which).
      In that scene, in the season finale

      the fourth episode of MW’s 4-episode “arc”

      Dr. Who and Ashildr are arguing about who
      the hybrid might be, e.g., what person who might destroy the world is the product of which two races.
      – Dr. Who first claims it’s Ashildr, because she’s a mixture of human and the alien healing technology he implanted in her to save her life (

      in MW’s first episode

      ) but which essentially transformed her into an immortal being. (Which is why she’s still around billions of years later.)
      – Ashildr then advances the theory that the Doctor himself is the hybrid, based on rumors about the Doctor’s parentage: that he’s really half-Gallefreyan, half-human.
      – That’s when he claims that theory doesn’t make any sense, and she replies: “It makes perfect sense and you know it.
      – She asks if the rumors are true. He responds cryptically “Does it matter?” She says no, it doesn’t, because she has an even better theory: “The hybrid” is to be interpreted figuratively as the combustible combination of two reckless people, the Doctor and his companion Clara.*
      – That’s why when the Doctor says Clara is just his friend, Ashildr snarks back at him: “And you’re willing to risk all of time and space because you miss her.
      – I may look for the follow up scene for better context. It does appear her interpretation might be correct – the Doctor acts on it. However, I’m not sure if that was “the” solution to the prophecy. A real Whovian might know.

      *

      In a previous episode, Clara apparently died. The Doctor couldn’t accept it. (I’m a bit hazy on the details): The Doctor messed around with the time-space continuum with a forbidden device he hijacked on his home planet, and plucked Clara out of her timeline the instant before her death.

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    103. Ten Bears: I may look for the follow up scene for better context. It does appear her interpretation might be correct – the Doctor acts on it. However, I’m not sure if that was “the” solution to the prophecy. A real Whovian might know.

      I think you’ve explained it really well and I have all the context I need! Especially for not being a Whovian myself, only a Whovian’s first order derivative (my dad’s preferred phrasing for kid).

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    104. Adrianacandle,

      ” I actually think the ASOIAF theory train can keep running to the end of time. The stretches people can make based on a single word…”

      The springboard for my heavy duty tinfoil theory was the brief conversation between Leaf and Bran in S6e5, beginning at 1:30 of this clip.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgZFBy0zF50

      That revelation would upend the accepted chronology of the WWs’ appearance, would it not?
      From there, everything falls into place.

      It makes perfect sense and you know it.”
      – Ashildr (Doctor Who S9e12)

        Quote  Reply

    105. Adrianacandle: I think you’ve explained it really well and I have all the context I need! Especially for not being a Whovian myself, only a Whovian’s first order derivative (my dad’s preferred phrasing for kid).

      In all candor…another reason I wanted to post the follow up scene is because

      it got the Dr. Who fandom all riled up for an Ashildr + Clara spinoff series.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Ten Bears: That revelation would upend the accepted chronology of the WWs’ appearance, would it not?
      From there, everything falls into place.

      “It makes perfect sense and you know it.”
      – Ashildr (Doctor Who S9e12)

      I think the known history of the Others and the questioned timeline do have some differences (perhaps significantly so) between the truth vs. what really happened. Sadly, though, this theory doesn’t make perfect sense to me, TB, and I don’t think everything falls into place from there. I’m sorry 🙁

      My problems with the Long Night Fake News theory remain via what I’ve mentioned earlier. The clip you provided is from the show and we don’t know much about what happened thousands of years ago when the Long Night took place (in the timeframes maesters speculate over) or what happened to make the Wall go up.

      GRRM talks about the Others being a separate race, another kind of life force, with characteristics kind of unlike what the White Walkers had (” strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”)

      I think of a combination between a scary, icy version of the elves from Lord of the Rings and an alien species — mysterious origins, another kind of life, beautiful, inhuman, elegant — rather than a created weapon to launch against the invading First Men.

      Further, in the book lore, reports of a Long Night happened world wide with accounts of demons (Yi Ti’s give great forts “[…] to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men …” bares similarity to the Wall and the Night’s Watch, whose mission it is to defend the realms of men from the darkness and the Others) baring a resemblance to the Others. Not only that, I think that narratively, the idea of the Long Night is too important and significant within the context of the story to have it be completely fabricated or a minimal event.

      I think it’s possible many details have been lost to history, the reported history has many aspects wrong, but I don’t think the Others are simply unfairly blamed villains or the Long Night was made up to vilify them. I think the Others have compelling, individual motives of their own — individuals that may make completely rational and sympathetic sense if they view humanity as the threat to their world (“a villain is the hero of the other side”).

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    107. Adrianacandle,

      ”Sadly, though, this theory doesn’t make perfect sense to me, TB, and I don’t think everything falls into place from there. I’m sorry.”

      I hope you know I was just playing around quoting that line from Dr. Who. I didn’t mean to imply that my far-fetched theory is correct, or
      insisting that you know it “makes perfect sense.”
      Sorry it came off that way.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Ten Bears: I hope you know I was just playing around quoting that line from Dr. Who. I didn’t mean to imply that my far-fetched theory is correct, or
      insisting that you know it “makes perfect sense.”
      Sorry it came off that way.

      Oh, crap, I’m sorry. No no, it’s my fault. I said above my humor radar has been dampened (and because of RL issues too) so I didn’t get your intent. I’m sorry 🙁 I misread!

        Quote  Reply

    109. loco73,

      Today’s Musical Interlude

      • Mary Chapin Carpenter, “Down at the Twist and Shout,” live 1991
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5otMS74u5rg

      • “Down at the Twist and Shout” – Mary Chapin Carpenter (official music video)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuapCENFM2U

      ⚠️ 🕳 🐇

      Caution: Burrowing down Mary Chapin Carpenter rabbit hole will lead to…Cyndi Lauper. Another offshoot leads to MCC’s “Songs from Home” videos, which she’s been recording and releasing every Sunday during the 2020-2021 Pandemic.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Don S.,

      Although I have the exact opposite opinion from yours, I do sympathize. The last undecided question in the story was how the metaphorical coin the gods had flipped at Dany’s birth would land. At the end, it fell on the side of Dany following in her father’s footsteps. Watching the Burlington Bar reaction video to her rampage across King’s Landing shows that many viewers agreed with you.

      D&D, following GRRM, had led viewers to believe that Dany’s story was a hero’s journey, but at the end, it was the rise of a tyrant. But a hero to one group can be a tyrant to another group, and each person is a hero in his or her own story. Many characters (and viewers) had counted on Dany to be a righteous conqueror — she was even preached as The Savior in the Free Cities — and, until her final decision, she could have been. That was, to this viewer at least, part of the story’s brilliance: both hero and tyrant were each logical outcomes of Dany’s arc.

        Quote  Reply

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