Reports have been coming in steadily over the past few weeks concerning the Game of Thrones filming in Spain, and the action scene underway in Malpartida de Cáceres. Cameras are rolling even over the weekend, with hundreds of extras turning up in Malpartida’s Los Barruecos yesterday to continue filming what is sure one of season 7’s biggest scenes.
El Periodico Extremadura has new images from yesterday’s shooting in Barrueco de Arriba confirming more details from recent spoiler reports, so keep on reading to view the photos!
With these new photos, details of the major ambush scene speculated and spoiled for the last few weeks are now confirmed. As you can see below, a horde of Dothraki are attacking the caravans that previously were seen carrying away goods from Highgarden. El Periodico Extremadura’s story refers to eyewitness reports from filming, describing the scene as an attack, with a large number of horses charging toward an imaginary enemy. Imaginary for the moment- the target will be added later, it seems.
Los Siete Reinos was able to confirm other aspects of the ambush spoilers this week, including the Lannisters marching with the loaded caravans. And so the pieces of the puzzle are adding up: the caravans traveling, the Lannisters afoot, the Dothraki charging…and there are still weeks of shooting left in Barrueco de Arriba, so we may hear more about cast sightings soon. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Jerome Flynn, and more have been rehearsing and spotted around Caceres, but Emilia Clarke was spotted in Belfast two days ago. Can we hope for Daenerys’ return to Spain in the near future?
Yoda!
Mark Mylod (episodes 2 and 3) prepares to shoot a likely King’s Landing sequence in Cáceres. Could this be the big parade scene with thousands of extras?
https://twitter.com/Jaehaerys2016/status/799636458504093696
The unsulied will be part of the ambush scene. Javi said it and wic posted a picture of jacob in caceres this days.
If you are thinking in mentioning a certain future couple in this comments area, PLEASE DO NOT!!!
Aguero,
Yup. It seems things might have changed along the way.
Get em, Beany! You fookin’ legend!
Guaranteed it’ll happen regardless. ?
Priscila,
Sadly, your comment may only invite such nonsense discussion.
To likely commenters: Please, don’t. Stay on topic. Keep the comment section healthy and well-spirited, please.
Luka Nieto,
I thought it was just the Dothraki in the ambush scene, not the unsullied?
It gets a bit confusing with possibly Highgarden and Casterly Rock having locations at the same time.
Priscila,
Nymeria and Ser Pounce!
HAHA, you thought you could stop me!
Mel,
This is what we thought: Lannisters vs Tyrells at Highgarden (Almodóvar & Trujillo), followed by Dothraki vs Lannisters near Highgarden (Las Breñas & Los Barruecos); Also, at some point, Unsullied vs Lannisters at Casterly Rock (location, if any, unknown; previously speculated to be Almodóvar, depicting the Rock along with the Tyrell home, because of Jacob… now it’s unclear).
There was clear evidence to back all of that up. Things might have changed as production went on, or perhaps we’re interpreting Jacob’s presence in the area wrongly. Who knows. We’ll have to wait and see, won’t we? Basically: If Unsullied appear in this battle, it’ll be clear our information was outdated —The Unsullied were included later into production. If they don’t show up, it may mean Jacob’s in Cáceres to film some other scene.
Emilia Clarke was seen today in London. How she is in Belfast?
Now im concerned that casterly rock might not appear since the unsulied will be part of the ambush and almovodar and Trujillo was only highgarden and jacob was there for HG.
Don’t be concerned. Casterly Rock may not need a Spanish location. They may do it with CGI and interior locations only. We’ll see.
Sandra,
If she was seen in London today, that wouldn’t be so weird. Belfast is like a two-hour flight from London.
I really have to wonder how the Dothraki are going to handle snow lol!! Hopefully they do something funny as a call back to them talking smack about Dany being out in the sun!!
Sue the Fury,
I know, but if she was in Belfast she should not stay filming? .. I mean, why stay only one day in Belfast to go to London? I do not see much sense. Day before yesterday, she was coming back from US. It seems information is mismatched.
Sandra,
I wouldn’t worry so much about her comings and goings. Belfast and London are pretty close together. And yes, someone could feasibly do one day of filming before heading out to somewhere else.
Sue the Fury,
She certainly seem to have the energy to do so! She seems like a total goofball but pulls off bitchface so well 🙂
Luka Nieto,
Thanks for the info, I’ll have to make sure I keep updated. It’s getting pretty interesting.
nvm can’t even joke around might be taken the wrong way
Off-topic
Hmm.. What’s the likelihood that the cast could be in attendance for the Arsenal vs PSG match this Wednesday at the Emirates (in London for those who don’t follow soccer/football)? This is solely based on one of Emilia’s hashtags while the cast was at the Seville vs Barca match. Yes I know, flimsy speculation LOL
Picture I’m referencing / Hashtag was #arsenalfcyoureupnext…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMfsWgnFYWt/?taken-by=emilia_clarke&hl=en
hmmmm, speaking as someone only here intermittently and in the past week
‘
Sounds like Cersei may send out the Lannister army from KL early on to smash Highgarden and take Olenna out over the whole “you’ve lost Cersei and it gives me Joy speech” not to mentioing SC baiting,
Plus there’s the matter of controlling to oft-mentioned Grain Supply needed to feed KL and keep Cersei’s position secure
Lannisters manage to do it before all the Bannermen are in position because hard to imagine they would be able to do it otherwise so quickly
But on way back from sacking some of Dany’s west coast landed force meet up with the Randyll and they attack the returning Lannister soldiers and their loot – smashing much of their field army
Would imagine they may then split, with Randyll + Dothraki heading to KL while Grey Worm splits off to head up West Coast to besiege Casterly Rock
This makes some sense, have to visually introduce Randyll as an able Military Commander via established characters – eg Bronn and or Jaime may get ambushed, then later on can give Grey Worm his due as a Commander as he besieges Casterly Rock
Technically Grey Worm should have Tyrion with him as Dany’s Lannister Lord of Casterly Rock to help placate smallfolk and minor nobility and Varys should accompany Randyll to KL given he can utilise his intelligence network and lessen any resistance but I doubt that will be the case
I just don’t get why they don’t attack Kingslanding while the Lannister army is away. Varys and Tyrion know enough secret passages to enter a few men and secure the Wildfire before attacking.
If her army is spread all over the South of Westeros of course they are defeated. But I guess the storyline needs to have her lose much of her forces.
Chances of Grey Worm and Unsullied survival are low if they’re part of the ambush sequence.
Jay Targ,
Why would cast go there? I understand Sevilla, since all where there and others do have their thigns to do. That seems more like Emilia’s private thing because Alfie is a big fan of Arsenal. Rumours here and there.
Geralt of Rivia,
Yeah, you’re likely right. I just remembered the hashtag and, as I stated, came up with a flimsy speculation.
Geralt of Rivia,
What rumours?
Sandra,
Yes, there seems to be some information having been confused – it’s hard to keep track of so many actors who are permanently changing locations… 😉
Emilia was seen on Nov 18th in London (not Belfast), and yesterday Nov 20th again.
Waiting to see her back in Spain finally!
Wildfire. Tyrion knows there’s caches under the city and will now realise that Cersei is willing to use it to kill thousands of innocent citizens.
Chilli,
That’s exactly the same question I am asking myself again and again and again. Dany lands on Dragonstone. OK, I can imagine that she gets into a a storm on her way and her fleet is scattered, and she needs to make a stop at Dragonstone, so all the ships could gather, etc. But why would Cersei leave Dragonstone unmanned, while expecting Dany’s invasion? Maybe, Dany will be planning to land at a different location, and Cersei will prevent that leaving Dragonstone as a second option? But one way or another, landing on Dragonstone makes the attack on KL the most reasonable and almost inevitable next step. Even if Dany decides not to attack the city to avoid civil causalities and chooses to deal with the Lannister army first (hoping that Cersei will be forced to surrender, if she succeeds), the ambush battle should be taking place right out of KL (Clob is right: Kingswood would be probably the best location for the ambush). But that WON’T BE THE CASE.
According to Luka, the ambush will happen somewhere near Highgarden, so, basically on the western coast of Westeros; the Unsullied in the Casterly Rock imply the same. So, why would Dany leave a relatively convenient jumping ground and go to the other side of the continent? And how does she get there? If she sails, Jaime would have plenty of time to return to KL long before she comes somewhere near Highgarden and Euron will have plenty of time to retake Dragonstone for Cersei long before she returns. But that WON’T BE THE CASE again.
The mosts reasonable (though far from satisfactory) explanation I have so far is that Dany will find the entire coast of the Black Water Bay (as well as the Stormlands and Dorne) very well fortified and therefore will have to look for ways to bypass Cersei’s defenses. Theoretically, she could sail north, land in the Riverlands (which will be in turmoil and might even show some welcoming) and then make a fast march to Highgarden and/or Casterly Rock: maybe she will be expecting to find Highgarden still under the siege and come with the plan of ambushing Jaime only after learning about Olenna’s downfall (could make sense).
As for Yara’s role, IMO, she will be creating some diversion to lure Euron away; maybe she will create an impression that Dany is going to land in Dorne: that would explain the presence of the Sand Snakes on her ship during the naval battle, which will go ill, but still promote Dany save landing in the Westeros mainlands…
But still I am not happy with these explanations, so I just wanted to ask Luka:
Luka Nieto,
Based on your information, are you sure that the ambush battle will be happening near Highgarden? Sorry for being tiresome, and thank you in advance.
Oh, but this problem has a rather easy solution: Team-Dany should simply spread the message that there are caches of wildfire hidden all over the city and urge the citizens to check their basements; Varys could draw the plans of the secret passages and spread them too. After all, if Little Birds managed to find those caches, anyone can. And that would win Dany some public support, because, as far as we know, wildfire is rather unstable and may ignite just by accident.
Would they really need Emilia for more shooting in Spain? From what I gather Dany is on Drogon for most of the ambush so wouldn’t that mean studio filming in Belfast instead? BTW I really think Randyll Tarly is on the side of the Lannisters he hates the wildlings he more than likely feels the same about the Dothraki. Just to point out I thought this long before the leaks came out like right after season 6.
I re-watched season 6 last week when my DVD arrived, and had completely forgotten that in 610, Daario and Daenerys actually have a conversation in which taking CR is mentioned. Daario misinterprets Daenerys’s statement that he isn’t coming with her as her saying that he will attack the west coast of Westeros as she attacks the east – he points out that if she takes CR then the Lannister forces won’t have anywhere to fall back to when she takes KL. Perhaps this is meant to be some sort of foreshadowing for the attack on CR, and it could give us some sort of explanation as to why Daenerys would split her forces like this?
ghost of winterfell,
Whether it’s true or not. I don’t want to spread gossip around here, much like with Kit. I wanna respect their privacy.
Mickey,
Leaks spoilers.
Which is why it would be stupid and dangerous to alert the townsfolk of KL that it’s potentially hidden under their homes.
That’s not simple at all!
The most likely result of warning the populace is King’s Landing blowing up because of an accident. Probably several accidents! Whatever Tyrion or Varys or Dany do, Cersei has King’s Landing hostage.
If the information didn’t indicate it, I wouldn’t be saying it, repeatedly, would I? 😉
Geralt of Rivia,
Oh that sort of rumours. I hadn’t heard this before. I think that’s all it is lol – rumours.
If Drogon is there will also Viserion and Rhaegal ?
Will Viserion and Rhaegal get riders? Leak said nothing about that.
Alba Stark,
Yes, I remember that scene and I agree that it was a foreshadowing. However, the true meaning of that foreshadowing it hard to tell yet.
On the one hand, CR should be one of the targets, and Dany has Tyrion who knows everything about the castle and its secret passages and sewage systems. Therefore sending Tyrion to CR with a small but reliable force (the Unsullied + Yara’s Ironborn) looks like a reasonable idea. But it seems like Tyrion will be on Dragonstone most of the season: more specifically Ep 1, 3, 4, and 5 based on his sightings at the Dragonstone filming sets with Dany, Jon, Davos, etc. Theoretically, Tyrion can go together with Dany in Ep 3-4, but if that happens, who will be left on Dragonstone? Jon? Sounds like a GoT version of “Home Alone”. And how would Grey Worm take CR without Tyrion? Will he draw him a plan of the sewage system or what?
And then there is all that riddle with everyone coming back to Dragonstone in Ep 5. What’s the point of going to that dead end island, if Dany has “boots on the ground” in the mainlands? In her case, retreat means defeat, but I can’t even figure out how it can happen technically. OK, Dany has Drogon, but her men don’t fly and neither do their horses. Moreover, Jaime beats Dany so hard that she has to retreat, her Dothraki would be shot from every bush all the way down to the sea, and then Dany will have to burn every bush all the way down to the sea, etc. And what about the ships, etc.
So, maybe Grey Worm’s alleged presence in CR has a much more simple explanation: Dany loses the ambush battle (because Jaime will be simply baiting her with that caravan), the Unsullied play 300 Spartans covering retreat of the Dothraki forces, Grey Worm gets captured (badly wounded, of course); and Jaime brings him to CR, where he spends the rest of the season until the Dany and Cersei agree on the armistice (and probably release of the captives). And then Cersei may decide to retreat to CR at the very end of the season, etc.
But still, everything looks weird and inconsistent, as if we are missing some major puzzle piece.
Chilli,
Yeah I also don’t get that
Apollo,
That’s why he said using secret messages ..
Only Varys know about the secret passages in KL ..he can guide a team into KL and capture cersei without much bloodshed ..
Like what happened with tywin and blood and cheese in dance of the dragons..
The only reason is because they want dany to lose or not capture KL no one will be bringing this secret passages about ..
pollyofthemountains,
Luka Nieto,
In fact, the citizens of KL should already know that they are living on a wildfire cache. If the information was gathered by the Little Birds, there was no way to keep it secret from the public: children talk and not only for sweets; they talk because they like talking. And after the incineration of the sept, those talks could hardly been neglected. And as for Dany, if she conceals this information from her people, she will rob them of any chances of escape and/or prevent destruction of their city.
As for the ambush-battle location, thank you, Luka, once again. Now we just have to find the right perspective to look at it, in order to avoid bashing D&D for silly writing.
dragonbringer,
Jaime helped Tyrion escape using a secret passage. So he knows about their existence now. He couldl have Cersei’s room guarded well enough to ensure no such attack happens.
In the books it was quite evident to everyone that Tyrion had gone into Tywin’s room via a secret passage. That’s why Cersei had the Tower of the Hand burned down, irrc. Even though the same was not explicitly specified in the show, surely they must have realized that’s how Tyrion made his way to Tywin’s room without the knowledge of the guards. So the secret passageways into the red keep at least might not be so secret anymore. Atleast Jaime is aware of them and can take take suitable precautions.
dragonbringer,
Regarding secret passages in KL: it would be too far stretched to assume that only Varys knows them. There were plans, so someone like Qyburn could find them and use both for the search of the wildfire caches, and for preventing any attack through these passages.
Arya Serious,
Well those people who made fun of Dany being in the sun are dead. And we have received pictures that show the Dothraki wearing furs and what not. I doubt they waste any time hitting on how the Dothraki are handling the snow. Maybe a quick shot of Dothraki shivering next to a northman feeling good. Something funny but hopefully a scene isn’t wasted to show how they are handling it. Not to mention I don’t believe any Dothraki will be going that far north in season 7 for a scene to see them deal with snow. But who knows.
Aguero,
Why are you concerned?
Sandra,
That is the life of a famous actress/actor. One day they are filming scenes in studio in one city and leave that night to go have dinner in another city. it may seem odd to us non-famous people but this is the type of life they live.
Ghosts Lunch,
yeah, pretty much sums it up. However, I think the consensus is
Chilli,
Well one would believe that something happens that doesn’t allow her to attack Kings Landing effectively. Also, having the idea that she can’t use her dragons to take Kings Landing because she will cause much death and destruction to innocence. We don’t and we won’t get spoilers on every little thing. If you want to be spoiled and you have this questions then you have to assume something happens that we are not aware of. Just my thoughts…
Apollo,
That is a good point as well. I always say its because something happens we don’t yet that doesn’t allow Dany to attack KL. My biggest point was always she cant use her dragons because it will cause much death and destruction to innocent people.
Inga,
Whether the citizens of KL actually know about the existence of more Wildfire or not, they should at least be worrying about the possibility. They have already seen Stannis’ fleet getting blown up, they have now seen the Great Sept and other buildings nearby get blown up as well. Logically, they should be very worried about the existence of more of this substance and the chances of them being victims to more fireworks in the city, thus causing some panic amongst them. I don’t really think the show has the time to go into citizens’ concerns though.
Also what happens to all those Highgarden troops with Dany’s fleet?
ghost of winterfell,
The problem is everyone knows about the secret passages existence because of the history with blood and cheese but they don’t know where they are and what places they lead to.
You think there will be a scene where Jamie puts guards on the passages …i don’t think they will be bringing this up at all..
You can plan to capture cersei or get hold of all the wildfire this way ..and it makes more sense to do this when we know they are going to have tyrion go to KL to turn Jamie ..
Inga,
The whole point about secret passages is that they are secret ..there won’t be a plan or map lying around for everyone to know…its been pointed out many times only varys knows about this ..
Luka Nieto,
I think it kinda of worked…people respect me!
lol
Inga,
Well, I understand your concerns. I can provide a lot of reasons for why Dany goes to Dragonstone instead of straight up attacking KL. What if they all go to KL and get smoked. Def. not prepared, simply thought numbers would do the trick and it doesn’t. So they have to retreat. Wait where will they go? Having a base to be able to go to is ideal. So great reason for Dany to go to Dragonstone first. Second, through spoilers we do know that
. When that happens it could easily change Dany’s whole plan of attack, well back to my first point they need a base, Dragonstone. Why would Cersei leave it unmanned – I don’t know in the show that Cersei has taken Dragonstone back. Most likely has but probably leaving it unmanned because 1000 soldiers are more valuable in KL than Dragonstone. Cersei/Jamie move any men they had there back to KL because they expect the battle to go there. Regardless of how many man Cersei puts on Dragonstone it will be an easy castle for Dany’s support to take so there really is no need to show us fighting scenes of her men taking the castle.
Now I know HighGarden and Casterly Rock are on the other side of Westeros. However, there literally are roads from Kings Landing to both castles, and actually both castles aren’t that far from Kings Landing. There is also a road from Highgarden to Casterly Rock. My point is you are worried about travel and think sailing there is best when no, it is putting soldiers and horses on the ground. My guess is Dany knows she has a huge army and can easily separate the forces to be successful. She needs to secure the Reach with the Tyrell’s in trouble, they secured Dorne. Or think they do. Splitting forces has happened on the show previously with a lot less men. So it is easy to fathom a force of 100k + can be separated. I could write a lot a lot more. I think it makes sense and I like how the show is figuring out to spread the war out against the Lannisters.
If the show literally has them going straight to KL and winning a battle without using dragons, Lannisters not putting up a fight, it is a clean victory would have been crappy for the show.
Inga,
That solution is not easy and for one not even logical. there are a million people Kings Landing and to assume all of them would be able to sneak out with the Gold Cloaks or the Lannister army is naïve. Not to mention there will be Cersei supporters among the small folk of Kings Landing so they would just simply inform people of the crown about what is going on. No chance in hell you can remove that many people from Kings Landing without tipping off Lannisters and Gold Cloaks.
dragonbringer,
Jaime might not be able to find and put guards in all the secret passageways, but he can have Cersei’s rooms searched thoroughly for such passages and put guards within her rooms to ensure there are no unexpected attacks and Tyrion would be anticipating such precautions by his siblings. I am not saying that there will actually be scenes of Jaime discussing secret passages, but it could be an explanation for why Tyrion doesn’t come up with this plan.
As for blood and cheese, since I haven’t read this, I can’t comment on it.
Geralt of Rivia,
Her brother is an Arsenal fan.
dragonbringer,
As for the Wildfire, Qyburn managed to find the ones beneath Baelor’s Sept. It’s not impossible that he could manage to locate some of the other places they are stored in as well and secure them.
Inga,
Man you have a lot of questions that can easily be answer lol Yeah that is exactly what Grey Worm would do if he attacked Casterly Rock, he would sit with Tyrion and learn the ins and outs. You don’t need Tyrion there to do it and most likely if you took Tyrion there to do it he would slow you down or be a liability. Love Tyrion and he has proved himself in a couple fights but still a liability on the battle field. Yes, Tyrion would tell Grey worm.
We don’t know if people are just going to all go back to Dragonstone. I think the purpose for these missions is one to maintain strongholds throughout westeros. Two, gain valuable resources such as food, and supplies for the upcoming winter. Also, yes the fight at HighGarden can be called an ambush but it also could be the Dothraki are simply late. They could have been heading to HighGarden to secure the strong hold with Tyrell soldiers and support, but are late hence why olenna could end up dying becayuse the lannisters beat the Dothraki force there. But they get there just as the Lannister force is leaving.
I mean this is a battle that Jamie and Bronn lose it appears so I am guessing the Dothraki and men with the Dothraki in this battle are going to HighGarden to stay at Highgarden. I don’t think it was simply oh attack their caravan and come home. Much more to it than that.
ghost of winterfell,
I see what you are saying ..but for me what you are saying is an excuse on the behalf of show..
Whether or not jamie puts men in cersei’s room should not stop varys and tyrion telling dany about secret passages and they planning an attack team to enter KL with the intent of capture or kill cersei..
So from what we know about spoilers …it seems like
Jamie is on the side of cersei who is keeping hold of whole city and threatening to burn down the whole city but he still protects her and fights for her .
Varys will never bring secret passages up
Tyrion goes on a secret mission with Davos to KL to convince jamie which he refuses..it would be such a fun if jamie says dany is aerys’s daughter so he can’t trust her…
I think I wouldn’t mind them not bringing about secret passages if not for them having tyrion going secretly to KL ..
dragonbringer,
I think it’s a valid reason. Tyrion and Varys can tell Dany about the secret passageways, but they would also have to tell her that Jaime and Cersei will be aware of the existence of these passages even if they don’t know the location of all of them.
Jaime remaining on Cersei’s side after what she did is pretty disappointing, tbh.
Leak spoilers:
Personally, I think Tyrion goes to meet Jaime to propose a temporary truce from fighting, because of the WW threat. Jaime will however scoff at Tyrion and it is his refusal to believe Tyrion and his refusal to stop fighting, in ep 5, that prompts Jon to go on his grab-a-wight mission.
Myname,
Didn’t even know that.
Inga,
Jon being left alone on Dragonstone is not exactly the best negotiation position from Dany and her team. To be in the middle of some important negotiations and then went off to fight Lannisters. Sounds a bit disrespectful towards Jon and Davos. On top of it taking their weapons and boats, so they can’t leave and forced to sit on their ass and wait.
Leaks spoilers.
ghost of winterfell,
Leaks spoilers.
Geralt of Rivia,
[Leaks]
Inga,
And one idiot (random citizen) is all it takes for the entire city to burn!( probably someone like me ,my friends never let me hold their phones!!!) .If they tell people they are sitting in wildfire they will go crazy .They will try to flee KN in a chaotic way and Cersei’s soldiers will try to kill everyone who tries to pass the gates . (Imagine if someone screams in the mall “There’s a bomb!!!”).No ,they need to do it quietly and with Jaime’s help.
Seven hells i can’t wait to see Dontraki screamers in action !!! It’s about f****ng time!!
Not just supporters but people eager to exchange information for gold.Or Tyrion.Cersei put a price on his head!!
Geralt of Rivia,
Leaks:
So yeah, I don’t think convincing the Lannisters to stop fighting is stupid AT ALL. Not when they have the biggest army in all of Westeros (not just a few thousand as you say). This very army (Lannisters plus Euron) has already defeated the Tyrells, Martells and Yara’s fleet.. The only way to prepare for the WWs is to stop the human war and stop the killing. If you can’t see this, I don’t know what else to tell you.
I don’t really know how convinced Dany is with Jon’s story, when and how much does she believe him. But I don’t think the grab-a-wight mission happens to convince her, since there is no need for it. She is sending Jorah with them, all he needs to do is actually see a wight for himself and come back and report to Dany about it. There would be no need for Jon to actually capture a wight and bring it to her. It is the Lannisters they need to convince, because they HAVE to STOP the war.
I am tired of defending Jon again and again. So let’s just call it quits now.
Sean C.,
Leaks spoilers.
ghost of winterfell,
Leaks spoilers.
Dany is probably devastated of loss of Viserion and doesn’t want to kill accidently civilians. Cersei is winning again and making them look like fools. In the leaks it says she prmised them her forces and fooling them, as she admitted to Jaime she just wants white walkers to thin her enemies.
ghost of winterfell,
Leaks
elybe,
Leaks:
Geralt of Rivia,
Why, man, Jon x Dany AGAIN!
Please, let´s just have awhole post dedicated to this subject, so at least the comments would be pertinent!
Priscila,
Leaks spoilers.
Leaving for a couple of days? Transporting Dothraki troops would take a week at least, if not more. Leaks says Jon grows impatient with their petty wars and came up with mission Beyond the Wall.
Geralt of Rivia,
Leaks:
Kargaryen,
elybe,
Leaks:
But yeah, you are probably right. He is trying to convince both parties here.
Kargaryen,
Leaks:
Geralt of Rivia,
Leak spoilers:
I’m sorry to say this but people focus on some stupid shit and are intent on characters being stupid or not making sense when the reasons are pretty clear.
LEAKS
Hahaha……. 😀 And you thought this would remain a poor-Jon-being-disrespected-by-Someone/Anyone free zone! Even when it’s only about an ambush at HighGarden where there have been NO mention whatsoever of any Northern forces involved, or Jon involved, sooner or later the usual suspects make it about Poor Jon again. It must be a shock that after many seasons, a big battle/ambush is somewhere other than in the North and involve players other than Jon! 😀
Off-topic (but not very much), maybe some of you would like to read this interview with our Sue the Fury, the lady who has taught us to cover our spoilers:
http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/21/13686194/game-of-thrones-watchers-on-the-wall-interview-susan-miller
Thank you, Sue, we are all here thanks to you!
Kay,
I mean it’s not a surprise at all cause we all have known for a long time that Dany means to conquer westeros so of course there would be a big battle in the south.Everybody was expecting it.But there is big action sequence later on in the north so nobody has any cause to complain lol.
Kargaryen,
Leaks spoilers.
Young Dragon,
Leaks spoilers.
Kay,
Did someone mentioned that Jon has to be involved? No. In fact it’s a good thing we’ll get battle that doesn’t involve the North. Lannisters vs Dothraki sounds awesome. Nobody is questioning battle itself, but why in the middle of negotiations between two main characters people want to meet and interact. Why interupting it by this?
Sue the Fury,
Just read the interview. I also love reading the news while having breakfast after leaving my daughter at daycare!
Kay,
I’ve found it pretty helpful to scroll whenever other characters’ defense squads report for duty, so I imagine it wouldn’t be that hard to do when people respond to Jon getting dragged in every single thread by the same posters, regardless of what the thread has to do with him. Hey, at least in this case the discussion is somewhat connected to the ambush. What can you do? People don’t seem to be all that interested in discussing the event itself.
Kay,
Um wrong. There’s a big action sequence going on in the north. Nobody is whining that there’s a battle in the south (we were actually expecting this battle). I see most of the comments are the usual suspects calling Jon stupid and whining that the show isn’t making Dany steamroll the Lannisters in one episode.
dragonbringer,
I could be misremembering but I though Varys showed Tyrion a map of the tunnels under KL in ep 2.09 when they were preparing for Stannis’s attack? Although it could have been a normal map of KL and he just explained where the tunnels are in relation to everything else? ?
elybe,
I feel like no matter how much posters try to reason with them and explain Jon’s motivations they don’t get it and repeat the same complaints and questions in every post. It makes me wonder if they even bother to read the replies to the questions they ask in the first place lmao. It’s exhausting.
Sue, that was a wonderful interview. You and the team consistently do a splendid job. It is satisfying to even just be a regular poster here. It’s also fun to happen upon a GoT titbit whilst browsing (usually on a news aggregator), at least one that sources WOTW. Equally, I’m angry whenever something that clearly comes from this site is not sourced. Grrrrr… . We know them because of the diligence of you and your colleagues. Still, your analogy to gorging on candy is apropos. Except for Dee Stark and a few other doughty souls with willpower, we all eat it up. I hate to think how Oz is surviving the present cornucopia. Anyway, well done, you.
Jenny,
I agree.
Hello Sue –
Time for my annual kudos to you and all for working so hard to make this website the best thing out there! Loved your interview and look forward to meeting everyone at the Con of Thrones.
konna,
Great point! People always looking to advance themselves in Westeros!
Stargaryen,
I agree with some of your ideas and explanations (I had similar ones before); however, the problem is that most of them don’t line up with the filming spoilers.
1) Dany will land of Dragonstone in Ep 1; the battle with Euron will not be in Ep 1 (confirmed by Luka). I would be happy with your suggestion that Dany comes to Westeros, then something happens, and she chooses Dragonstone for landing as the second option. The problem is that there’s almost no time for something to happen. OK, some things may happen off screen or be filmed in the studio. I basically mean Euron sacking of Dorne/Sunspear/Watergardens. I still keep in mind the map from In Production Trailer showing Lannisters in Dorne and some ships hanging around the southern coast of the Stormlands. I know I made a lot of misinterpretations based on this map already, but if this is the situation Dany finds upon her arrival to the coasts of Westeros, that could be a legit explanation to her landing in Dragonstone. It could also explain why she finds Dragonstone poorly manned: Cersei’s forces (including Euron) would be concentrated in the Stormlands, Dorne, and the Sea of Dorne, which would give Dany a free passage all the way to Dragonstone.
However, if landing on Dragonston is made Dany’s first intentional choice , I don’t know which of the rival queens will look more stupid: Dany neglecting her allies, or Cersei failing to equip Dragonstone with ballistas and leaving it undermanned.
2) The naval battle. If Dany lands on Dragonstone, Euron must come after her and take a position somewhere nearby (the Black Water Bay and/or KL) waiting for a right moment to attack. So, when Dany decides to move to the mainlands, Yara will have to play a diversion and lure Euron away to give Dany a free passage to wherever she intends to go. IMO, that’s the best reason for the naval battle to happen, though there could be others as well.
3) The ambush battle (or rather the battle for Highgarden). I’m on board with your guess that Dany will rush to help Olenna after learning that Highgarden has or may fall under siege and that she will simply come too late. That will leave the ambush battle the only option. But first, she will have to get to Highgarden, and it’s hard to see Dany landing anywhere in the Blackwater Bay, because there she should encounter Cersei’s counteractions. So, it leaves the Riverlands the best option with a relatively safe harbor and relatively welcoming population. Jon might even play some role in facilitating that, if Edmure reclaims Riverrun by then (and even if not, the KINT would be the person the anti-Lannister and anti-Frey houses of the Riverlands would be looking at for support and/or council).
But as for the ambush battle, the crucial question is who wins? Let’s forger all the reddit leaks and look to the “official” spoilers: we have seen Jaime on the battlements of Highgarden, we haven’t seen any Dothraki on the battlements of Highgarden, so I suppose Highgarden will remain under Jaime’s control. Maybe he and Bronn will retreat there after the battle? That would be more reasonable, when sending them to KL with the Dothraki in pursuit. And that would give Dany more reasons to retreat and search for another target, namely send the Unsullied to the CR. If Tyrion were with them at that moment he could instruct Grey Worm about all the secret passages, and that could look more or less believable. Then Tyrion and Dany could back to Dragonstone through Riverlands again (I agree that sailing back and forth all around Westeros would be stupid), reach Dragonstone in Ep 5 and try to figure out what to do next, which would lead to Tyrion and Davos going to KL. Jaime may also be back in KL in Ep 5: he may leave Highgarden as soon as Dany retreats. But all in all, it looks like Dany’s victory at Highgarden will be rather Pyhrric or not a victory at all.
4) However, it still leaves us with the problem of Jon “Home Alone” on Dragonstone, and that’s something absolutely crazy, because how could Dany know that Jon wouldn’t strike a deal with Cersei in her absence? And what would Jon be doing “Home Alone” on Dragonstone: mining dragon glass and playing with broomsticks? If he intends to win Dany as an ally, the best way would be going with her to Highgarden and trying to charm her on the way. But that won’t be happening, so at least Tyrion should to stay on Dragonstone to interact with Jon, and that brings us back to the problem when and how Grey Worm is supposed to take Casterly Rock.
So, one way or another there are things that make no sense.
And as for Dany’s alleged reluctance to attack KL in order to avoid civilian causalities, I don’t buy that somehow. First of all, civilians will be dying one way or another: Cersei is already killing everyone who speaks against her, and things are going to be only worse next season. Secondly, if panic broke out and KL citizens decided to run away en masse, no Gold Cloaks could ever held them (and that would leave Dany an empty city). So, IMO there will be other reasons not to attack: it simply looks like Cersei will be one step forwards, and Dany will be forced to fight war under her terms, which is OK, if Dany is not made too stupid (she is one of the main protagonists after all).
Geralt of Rivia,
Leak spoilers:
Cersei ruling in King’s Landing while Dany and Jon fall to the White Walkers isn’t much of a victory when the White Walkers turn their attention to her. In that scenario, nobody wins.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Thank you for posting that. A great read. I only discovered GOT during Season 5 and binged out on it and the books. This is unquestionably the best place for a fan to be thanks to Sue and her team! None of the other sites compare.
Jenny,
Preach
konna,
Well, obviously we have rather different experiences with mobs. As someone from Eastern Europe I have seen and been in like 20 revolutions, and I can vouch that when the stakes are really high people don’t act like idiots. Self-organization happens in minutes, and it’s reasonable people who take the lead: you simply sense whom you should follow… But then again: KL is not Warsaw, or Budapest, or Kiev, or Vilnius, so what can I know about the KL mob? (Sorry, for being too political.)
Flayed Potatoes,
Once I realized that facts made no difference, I stopped bothering. The Venn diagram representing the relationship between a failure to understand these plot points and leak skepticism that persisted after Spain filming kicked off is practically a circle.
Well, there seem to be two very simple solutions to this “problem”:
1. When Jon arrives at Dragonstone, Dany has already gone to support her Dothraki at the Highgarden / caravan battle site, and she first meets him when she returns on Drogon (which could even coincide with his arrival). Please remember, we have no indication from the leaks that Tyrion will be at the battle site.
2. As some readers suggested, Dany might fly to the Highgarden / caravan battle in an impulsive action right when she gets news that her Dothraki army came too late and Highgarden was taken by the enemy. That would not require Jon being “home alone” for a long time (as only Dany & Drogon would fly to the battle site and back). Additionally, there would neither be reason to believe he’d be keen to strike a deal with Cersei, nor would he be able to do so (without any means of leaving DS) anyway.
Both solutions seem possible to me.
Young Dragon,
Leaks spoilers.
Tyrells were having largest forces, most food, and gold. Not the Lannisters. No way they have 40 000 or even close. Heck, armies of the North were nerfed to absolute minimum. All of sudden only avbout 6000 men between the Boltons, the Karstarks and the Umbers when the Karstarks marched home with half of the Robb’s army, which was about 20 000 men and that means 10 000 Karstarks alone survived+ the Boltons and the Umbers. Should easily make 18 000 or more. Wildlings were reduced to just a margin of the forces and other houses in the North.
Ser Bergh,
Your solutions are well-reasoned. If Jon had seen Dany depart on DC-9 Drogon, why would he and Davos be diving for cover on her return?
So, a bit off topic..
Do you think we will get a full fledged siege on King’s Landing by the time season 8 is over?
keltia,
Because they aren’t diving for cover on her return. The ambush happens in episode 4, and Luka confirmed that Jon and Davos reach Dragonstone in episode 3.
Ser Bergh,
My choice would be Jon arriving to Dragonstone in Dany’s absence: that would give him some time to renew his bond with Tyrion, etc. The problem is that the god-damned leak explicitly states that
And that makes Jon “home alone” on Dragonstone with no-one else to interact but Missandey (and/or Varys). I don’t mind Jon interacting with Missandei (and/or Varys): if he can’t reason the Dragon Queen, trying to reason her trusted advisors would be still and option. But I just have to agree with Geralt of Rivia: Jon being left alone on Dragonstone is not exactly the best negotiation position from Dany and her team.
Geralt of Rivia,
And not only it’s a bad negotiation position, it’s simply out of character for all the characters involved. Tyrion is a reasonable guy, he knows that the WW may turn to be a real threat after all; he heard people talking about it and these were people he respected and trusted, so he should believe Jon, right? He also knows that the North can’t be won by force, so if he intends to maintain or rather reestablish integrity of the Seven kingdoms, he should advise Dany to treat Jon nicely.
Dany also knows that people should be treated nicely. She have never asked anyone to kneel for the sake of kneeling. Moreover, IMO she sincerely wants to win respect of her subjects and/or potential partners. She might slightly intimidating with the strangers sometimes, but it’s more like a test: something like “You fear me? Oh, you not. How sweet.” So what would be her natural actions, if she meets Jon and then suddenly receives a call for aid from Ollena? IMO, she should say to Jon: “Take dragon glass and go to the Wall, I’ll join you as soon as I do away with Cersei.”
And Jon should understand that perfectly: he knows that allies should not be left behind, and he knows that Cersei is basically a female version of Ramsay which should be taken out for the common good. He won’t be a loser if he goes back to the North just with dragon glass and a vague promise of help in the future: he will have efficient weapons, and the war with Dany will withhold Cersei from any attacks on the North and/or its allies.
So, either the leaks are wrong, or there is some twist we don’t know yet. I have been thinking, what if Cersei takes some measures to drive a wedge between them? Basically, if Dany is somehow persuaded that Jon is a power-hungry bastard who wants to take her and rape her and use her to climb onto the IT, that could explain both Jon’s disarmament and taking him into a sort of custody. But I don’t know – just a suggestion… What do you think, folks?
That’s interesting – but where in seven hells did you read that? I have never ever seen this being stated anywhere in the original leak and would be eternally grateful for some link ;-).
Apparently, the leaks are all fake and fabricated by HBO. Before whenever something leaked HBO was on it, and now even WOTW are openly posting about suppose *leaks*.
Some of the locations and actors present might be true, but events doesn’t play like it was said there at all.
Ser Bergh,
Sue’s first article about the scene she suggested the possibility that Tyrion would be present. That was speculation of course.
https://watchersonthewall.com/new-report-brings-game-thrones-spoilers-galore/
Later I believe there was the verbiage that
Geralt of Rivia,
Moreover, survival is not what Cersei is looking for: she wants vengeance and destruction of her true and alleged enemies, which basically make the entire Westeros, so if the Night King can help her, he is welcomed. She wouldn’t mind to be turned into a wight, and very happy to become a WW Queen.
Leak speculation
However, leaving Jon “home alone” on Dragonstone for Ep 4 (according to Luca’s confirmations) is something I can’t understand.
Considering the idea of Jon being left ‘alone’ on Dragonstone…
Clob,
Leaks spoilers.
Inga,
Leaks spoilers.
They lost a dragon and gain Jaime maybe with a few thousand of Lannistre, I’d say they lost on this. Dragon will help WW pass the Wall and give them an ultimate weapon.
Geralt of Rivia,
Well, that goes right back to something I’d written weeks ago.
Ser Bergh,
Clob,
Leaks
Maybe I am wrong (I would be happy to be), but it doesn’t matter really. Dany is the sole decision maker, and she could wrap the talk with Jon in 5 minutes, if she wanted. What’s to talk about, really? The WW is a disaster which should be addressed at once; Cersei is a disaster that should be addressed at once; so, one takes the North, another takes the South and wishes each other good fortune in the wars to come. And bringing dragon glass to the Wall would be the most urgent thing: Jon didn’t expect to get dragons when he was taking the position of the KITN, so he must have an idea or two how to defend the Wall without dragons (at least temporarily). Basically, he needs oil and all kind of flammables (wood, straw, etc.). He can’t rely on the dragons alone.
That’s exactly what we know about it right now – ofc Tyrion COULD be there – but we have nothing to prove or falsify it.
And the assumption that Tyrion is present because he disapproves Dany burning the Tarlys is exactly what you call it – an assumption. He could disapprove without being an eyewitness, or Dany could burn them back at DS (where she called all Westeros lords to assemble), or he is indeed at the battle site – we don’t know it.
So that’s the reason for me asking @Inga why she thinks that
Inga,
Well, it matters because it adresses your Jon Snow alone at DS problem ;-).
Regarding the other issues:
1. Dany does not see the WW as a disaster to be adressed at once – her aim is to (re)conquer the Iron Throne for the Targyryens, that’s what her whole storyline was about up to now.
2. Jon Snow may know how dangerous Cersei is, but he does not see her as a disaster to be adressed at once; he knows there is a much greater threat rising in the North.
So they do have a lot to talk about indeed… until Jon finally convinces Dany that Cersie is not the main problem, and their only chance is to unite mankind against the NK and his army.
Sue the Fury,
Less than an hour….
Ser Bergh,
Leaks spoilers.
But Dany does seems to believe Jon at least partially because why else would she send Jorah with them, and Tyrion at the first meeting, yet can’t commit men. Leaving Jon while handling negotiation is not the wisest move from her. It doesn’t leave the best impression on them and she needs allies with how siation developed with Tyrells, Dorne and Ironborn fights earlier in the season.
Clob,
Luca have just confirmed that the ambush battle will be near the Highgarden (just in case you missed it).
But I see another problem with regarding sending the Dothraki somewhere without Dany leading them in person. Let’s face it: the Dothraki are pillagers and rapists. As long as Dany will be watching them, they may abstain from their old habits, but if they are send somewhere on their own, they will relapse inevitably. So, I believe that Dany shouldn’t risk sending the Dothraki somewhere on their own. And then again there is that landing problem… So, sorry but I don’t see Dany sending the bulk of her forces to various points in the mainland purely technically (at least until you offer a reasonable landing scenario).
Geralt of Rivia,
Leak speculation
So, there ha to be some twist or some specific reason, why Viserion gets killed, and it shouldn’t apply to the other two, otherwise it would be really cheesy.
Geralt of Rivia,
Jaime stated in Season 6 that the Tyrells have the second-largest army in Westeros, and the Lannisters, by implication, have the largest. This is a huge change from the books (and makes little sense when you consider that Tywin gave Jaime half the Lannister forces in Season 1 and Robb ambushed and destroyed that army), but there you go.
Where? I do not think so, but am eager to learn 😉
Guys, about the leaks, I need some help
2) Also, Eurons was said by some to have ” freaked out” during the ” meet the wight” session, asked if they could swimm, and ran to the Iron islands. I also could not see this bit.
3) Is it possible that the whole ” Aegon Targaryen” thing is a typo? Like, maybe the leaker meant ” Aemon”? Or maybe this is something that will be revealed as a fake information after all. I sure hope so.
Irena,
Sure Jan
Why do people seem to think that Tyrion is at the ambush??Where did they get that?
Priscila,
Ser Bergh,
Leaks spoilers
Priscila,
Leaks spoilers
Here: http://imgur.com/a/LgCvo#LqEoyqq
Geralt of Rivia,
You are confusing things that didn’t come from lads
Jenny,
Audience is clever and they know. Besides show and books should be same. What’s the point if it’ll be different?
About Tyrion.
Leaks spoilers.
Sorry to be a pain in the a**, but where did you read this in the leaks?
Geralt of Rivia,
LEAKS
Inga,
We’ll see. With commanders trusted by her and obeyed by their men they shouldn’t do what they’re told not to. ‘Close to Highgarden’ in show terms could be anywhere between there and KL. It’s the same with army numbers… they can make anything happen for plot. I just don’t see her having her entire army sitting idle on Dragonstone and don’t think D&D would write it that way. That being, anytime they’re going to go on the offensive somewhere they load up ships, sail to the mainland and then come back. Doesn’t make sense.
Sean C.,
Actually, all we know is that Robb defeated the Lannister army and captured Jaime. It’s never said how much of the Lannister host was killed. In medieval times, surprisingly, a fairly low percentage of troops die in battle. Most either retreat or are captured by the enemy.
Jenny,
Leaks spoilers.
How do you know Jon won’t ever change his first name? Why else would they mentioned that name, it has play the part in the future? Otherwise no point of brining that up. How about continuity? If the book and show are same for hus parents, why changing his name?
If people who never read the book or not paying attention to details don’t know who is Rhaegar, how would they find Jaehaerys less impactful than Aegon? Because we as show/book people knows what is and what isn’t. Jon got no connection to Aegon or Jaeharys, not like to Aemon. Actually, Jaehaerys is more respectful and fitting name. Jaehaerys were always good Kings, respected by many. Unlike some Aegon is a powerful name but some not so good Aegon II or Aegon The Unworthy.
Geralt of Rivia,
It’s been said that the Lannisters have the largest army in the show so deal with it already,this is the show canon and no matter how much you deny it doesn’t make your point any more true .
I hope there is more interesting news coming up this week. ?
That’s almost never the case.In any adaptation.
Priscila,
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/59jbqo/leaks_by_character_for_reference/
Check Tyrion and Varys sections.
2) Also, Eurons was said by some to have ” freaked out” during the ” meet the wight” session, asked if they could swimm, and ran to the Iron islands. I also could not see this bit.
Same source. But I also remember seeing this comment of the leaker myself, before his account was deleted.
3) Is it possible that the whole ” Aegon Targaryen” thing is a typo? Like, maybe the leaker meant ” Aemon”? Or maybe this is something that will be revealed as a fake information after all. I sure hope so.
It’s a possibility, because the leaker was also typing “Targaryen” wrong, he kept writing “Targereyon” etc. until people warned him. It is likely that he had never read the books, wasn’t following any forums or discussions and was probably a casual viewer. But he didn’t correct the name, just the surname. It is also possible that in the show his name will be Aegon, because there is no Aegon in the show and maybe they just liked the sound of it and preferred to use that name instead.
ghost of winterfell,
Everybody knows that the show ruined Jaime’s arc by making him stay with Cersei so long, and apparently they continue doing that in season 7 too, finding excuses for him to stay, by using that pregnancy plot this time…they will probably make him stay with Cersei for the baby, although he started getting disillusioned about her now. The show just chose to keep Jaime as an antagonist longer to increase the drama I think, instead of turning him into a protagonist sooner. That will happen in season 7 finale when he switches sides.
But I’m sure Jaime won’t be fine with Cersei or anything like that anymore, they should start turning him against her now. He will probably have his reasons to fight, we won’t see him fighting for Cersei, maybe for the sake of the baby, or to defend Casterly Rock, or to gather resources like food for KL and money to pay the debts to iron bank etc, but not for Cersei. And I don’t think that Jon will have to start a wight hunt to convince Jaime, they will have to do it to convince Cersei. It’s not like Jaime can make Cersei do anything, she doesn’t care about his opinions; even if Tyrion convinced Jaime, he couldn’t convince Cersei. And apparently Cersei is in control, because according to leaks Jaime starts riding to north alone in the finale, not with the army. So if the leaker was correct on this, Jaime can’t take the army with him for some reason, maybe simply because Cersei is stronger…but this is one of the weird points in the leaks, we don’t know why Jaime wouldn’t be able to command the army and would leave alone, these parts are missing in the leaks.
Clob,
According to Luka, Highgarden will be visually seen from the location of the ambush battle, so it will take place only several miles away from the castle.
As for the size of the armies… medieval societies had a fantastic ability to recover because they had birth rates. You needed a prolonged war (occupation) + some major pandemic to have a considerable effect on the size of population/army. And it continued until the WWII and after in some countries; in other countries it continues even now. So, it’s not a big stretch in the show, that the Lannisters are able to replenish their ranks easily.
And as for the Dothraki, of course, it’s a fantasy show and any pillager can turn into an angel overnight. That’s what happened the Wildlings, but they were humbled by the defeats at the Wall and Hardhome, and they didn’t have numbers: 2,000 combatants + some 3,000 noncombatants wouldn’t risk to provoke the local population. But as for the Dothraki, they sailed through the poisoned water, their confidence is boosted, etc., but what do they get for following their goddess to the end of the world? Has she promised them pay-off in the afterlife full of everything including ever-fresh virgins? So, what do they get from that? Fame and glory? Yes, people accept dying for fame and glory, but only as long as they are on the wining side. But if lose and face starvation, they riot? Haven’t we seen that at the Craster’s Keep? So, I don’t know whether the show will address this problem with the Dothraki: IMO they will simply wipe them out partially by the Lannisters, partly by the WW and be done with them, but in general problem caused by pillaging culture should not be neglected.
Ser Bergh,
I think Geralt has already given you the links to the leaks you asked for. I am not a leak believer, but as an historian I always try to work with all the information available and consider different options. So, sorry for repetition, but I don’t see reasonable explanation for Jon to stay on Dragonstone in Dany’s absence. Well, he may use that time to mine dragonglass (he needs a lot of that I suppose), but as for Cersei I don’t think Jon would be willing to have her as an ally: an unreliable ally is a major risk factor and it’s always better to fight alone than side by side with someone who may abandon you during the battle or stab you in the back. Hence, he should route for Dany to dethrone Cersei, he should be even compelled to help her, and Dany should be compelled to help him: after all the Wall will still be standing by then, and there won’t be any sense of emergency. So, there shouldn’t be any reason for Dany and Jon not to reach a principal agreement like in an hour or two and then stand back to back, each of them addressing their own enemy. And if it’s not happening, there has to be some reason we don’t know yet. As I have said, maybe Cersei managed to discredit Jon in Dany’s eyes somehow, maybe Dany believes that Jon is a potential rival/threat. She may be rather nasty with men she sees as potential spouses or lovers (just look how she treated poor Hizdahr and Daario); hence, there might be some conflict along these lines. But in such case Jon should rather go with her to Highgarden and try to win her affection on the way.
So, once again, all these leaks and spoilers are a tough riddle, and we will hardly solve it until the season airs. But this game of guesses is a fun and a bit of a brain exercise, so why shouldn’t we play, if it gives us pleasure, or at least a way to discharge our negative emotions (which is also necessary sometimes).
For someone who thinks westeros will be nearly in total devastation when dany arrives ..
War of the 5 kings decimated riverrun and north and lannisters and stormlands..
Those who escaped war of 5 kings like vale dorne and reach would be now face loses and destruction due to war of three Queen’s with YG coming …so at the end of TWoW most armies will be suffering from huge loses and reduced in their numbers..
Dany will arrive in Westeros at the end of TWOW or start of TDOS with cersei still in power..
So up until this point everything is going as I thought it would go …its one of the reasons I don’t have a problem when ellaria and ollenna are defeated…
the one thing that comes out of nowhere and no one predicted was cersei still in power surviving dany and defeating her or at least giving enough fight to hold dany winning
If cersei is indeed alive when dany goes for war of dawn…then I get hope that this will increase her chance of survival a little bit more. ..although I don’t want to get my hopes that much ..
The whole thing with this cersei being in power and keeps winning and need to ask her men for war of dawn would not sound stupid if we hadn’t known about war of 5 kings or them being owing huge debt to IB or how their mines are now empty and literally with no allies other than euron..
And let’s be honest here no matter how one put it the whole wight mission is to have Jon do something this season instead of sitting around doing boring stuffs and provide NK with a dragon….jon should have thought about this while he was at hardhome or after hardhome and the most logical thing to do would have been allying with dany to overthrow cersei …
Like they did with Ramsey and north ..there was nearly 10000 precious lives must be lost in that war ..why Jon didnt thought those men could not be wasted and must be used for war of dawn is beyond me ..
ghost of winterfell,
No they don’t need to tell that or think about that possiblity at all..why should they ..the passages have been there ever since Red Keep was built …no one kept guards all the time at their rooms because of those existance of passages ..
Even after Tywin was murdered varys still gets to kill pycelle and kevan
Lets say they do think that Jamie knows about this and have them guarded …what they stand to lose sending an team to check…
Either they will gain something bigger by getting to cersei or lose back to square one..
Its certainly more logical thing to do than tyrion going himself secretly to KL and risking his life..
I wouldn’t put it past the show to give that as one of the reason…doesn’t matter how stupid that will sound ..
If tyrion is indeed going for wanting a temporary truce and speak about WW …then he doesnt need to go secretly ..they can send an messenger and find a place to parlay and discuss their options..
No, unfortunately Geralt could not provide any link to the leaks saying Tyrion is on the battleground. Regarding this issue there simply seems to exist no information at all to work with 😉 .
And sorry for repetition on my side too, but imho there simply would not be any reasonable explanation for Daenerys to take Jon with her into a battle at this time. In her eyes Jon is simply one of the lords of the seven kingdoms who have to pledge allegiance to her, the only rightful queen (and he’s a dangerous separatist besides) – and like most people of Westeros she does not believe in the return of the WW and their army of undead for a single moment. To him she ‘s an usurper who brings more conflict and war to Westeros, just in the moment when the unity of mankind is more needed than ever.
So of course they do not trust each other at the beginning, as they meet with totally diverging ambitions and priorities – and according to the “leaks” it takes some time (and hard work by Tyrion) to reach some convergence and trust between them.
innocence,
I have wondered why would Jaime continue to stay with Cersei after what she did. Doing it for the baby or for Casterly Rock seems a reasonable answer (I think his anger at Tyrion will also be a factor). I think we will see cracks in their relationship all throughout the season before he finally abandons her.
It is a good question, who controls the Lannister army, Jaime or Cersei? Who will they answer to? The finale leaks seem to suggest that it’s Cersei, even though Jaime is supposed to be their commander. But more to the point of the discussion, who do Tyrion and Jon think controls the army. Tyrion sneaking in to KL suggests that he expects Jaime to have that power. Also, from Jon’s POV, when he goes on his mission, I don’t think he would actively differentiate between Jaime and Cersei as to whom he needs to convince (especially after Jaime’s rejection of Tyrion). From his pov, he needs to convince the Lannisters, which at that moment includes both Jaime and Cersei.
I disagree partially. I think convincing the warring factions to put aside their fights was always going to be Jon’s story. It was always logical that the people of Westeros would have to put aside their differences to come together to fight the WWs. That means working with people who have been traditional enemies, which is the hardest thing the protagonists would be asked to do. Even though I agree nobody would have guessed that Cersei would be one of those people.
Also, going on a wight hunting operation to do it was something nobody would have guessed as well. What ultimately matters is that Jon’s actions are in keeping with what we know of his character, so I don’t see the issue here.
You are once again comparing these 2 situations, while the circumstances are quite different. Jon did not go into battle with Ramsay out of choice. Ramsay threatened to kill Rickon, Sansa and the Wildlings. Ramsay forced Jon into this war, that was the whole point of the Pink Letter. People would have died in their thousands no matter what Jon did.
Now is Dany being forced to go to war with Cersei? No. Dany chooses to fight Cersei for her claim (FYI I am not blaming Dany for this AT ALL). However these 2 situations are not the same.
dragonbringer,
Leaks:
However Tyrion has to go there secretly because he is wanted for Joffrey’s murder and the Gold Cloaks would arrest him if he is seen.
Just a short update from Los Barruecos: First pics of Jaime and Bronn on the battlefield have been published by twitter user @RickZornow:
https://twitter.com/RickZornow/status/801010478243835904
Check out his other tweets, there’s lots of photos there!
P.S.: The green flag might be the Tarly’s…
ghost of winterfell,
Why the secrecy ..
He is risking everything by going to KL unarmed …while Jamie is backed by golf cloaks and lannister men …is that how a parlay supposed to be
Its not something unheard of that two enemy factions meet in a place to parlay …
If its about WW situation and the need to call off the war then it should happen openly and Jon should be the one to present his case to Jamie because he is the only one who knows about this …so Jon not going with tyrion means its not about WW
Speaking of Bronn why is he still on the side of lannisters …for a man like bronn should have switched sides once he learns about dragons and that is not even considering tyrion is with her ..
Yes I do and both situations are very much comparable imo..the circumstances may be different but the result should have been the same..
He should have had this mission planned last season instead of going for collecting supporters …then he could have presented this wight to northern lords and Ramsey and say what’s coming and how they need one another…because last I checked northern lords themselves don’t believe in WW …
I still believe that there is something going to happen after the parlay at dragonpit that we don’t know from leaks because the whole blown up KL vision doesn’t make sense
The issue for me atleast is that this mission was never supposed to happen and I don’t think something like this will ever happen in books…this is shall we say another one like mission to craster’s ..jon have wights in NW cells …they can present them whenever they are needed..
While its totally in character for Jon ..it paints other characters as selfish and ambitious perons who are focused on petty wars who dont listen or believe jon and Jon overcoming them …and it looks like the only one who will escape this is tyrion because we can’t have him in bad light like we can have other characters ..
curious but what r these 4chan leaks everybody is talking about?
Ser Bergh,
OK. I guess, I have to apologize for being unable to find the required link: maybe I just took the info from someone on this site (I am not a reddit reader). So, let’s leave this question about Tyrion open until we get some evidence.
And as for all that mistrust and disbelief in the existence of the threat, so far it looks a bit forced and overplayed and I agree with those, who say that it would be out of character for Dany and her team not to believe Jon and not to welcome him as an ally. Maybe it’s due do my cultural and personal experiences, but I have seen sworn foes forging alliances in seconds upon the emergence of a real threat. And when people neglect a threat, they mostly do so because they had a different interest or a different vision of survival. As for Westeros, someone like Cersei would be simply welcoming the WW invasion and thinking that being converted into a wight is cool; other will say that the WW will need some humans and look for ways to work themselves into their good graces by sacrificing children or whatever; the third will be thinking that yielding the North to WW would satisfy their appetite until the spring comes, etc. So, I don’t see how Jon can change it hanging on Dragonstone: take dragonglass, lad, and go home; if Tyrion believes you, he hill find ways to reason his Dragon Queen, if not – well, you shouldn’t hope for someone to win your war for you, so do your job and led Dany do her’s. After all, Cersei is as much or even more an enemy to Jon, as she is to Dany: she want’s Sansa’s head on the spike, she wants all the heads of all the remaining Starks on the spike, and he wants his own head on the spike too. So, having someone distracting her attention from the North should be good enough.
Stannisisdead,
Large portion of the Lannisters forces were killed by Robb during their battles and War of the Five Kings. So, Lannisters out of nowhere appears to have so many soldiers. But whatever.
Ser Bergh,
Isn’t it there? Then it must be 4chan but they both know. 4chan user know about VFX scenes whic includes this one and and proivided detail on this battle.
dragonbringer,
Jon was kinda killed after Hardhome and then pushed into fight against Ramsay. Sansa plead with him to fight, because he’ll go after them and Rickon was a prisoner. When he should’ve planned it? And now hearing about this Queen with dragons, the logical tells him to go to her.
Also, convincing Southern Kings and Queens with a much larger forces is better than a few thousand men up in the North. Dany alone got 100k Dothraki and Unsullied, Lannisters appears to have a lot, Ironborn with Euron. It’s much more worthy than when you compare it to Northerners numbers.
Inga,
I think Dany chooses Dragonstone as a first option. Most people think oh she is going straight to KL to destroy Cersei and the Lannisters. I guess I may have said something happens to send her to Dragonstone but I speculate that her group that follows her will go to Dragonstone first. One, to reorganize and plan the attack. Sailing two months from Slaver’s Bay to Kings Landing to make an attack is tough to do. Ships gets lost, plans get fuzzy, plans may change. It is smart for any commander to find a location to reorganize after a long trip, Stannis was able to go straight to Kings Landing from Storms End because they had their men, short trip, and plan. Also, something pretty cool about Targ. first landing on Dragonstone to make there home and Dany comes back to Westeros finally and it is fitting she goes to Dragonstone, the home of her ancestors.
How Dragonstone is currently manned is unimportant to me. They never mentioned in the show that the Lannisters took it so it is assumed that they did. If they did then they also gave it to a family. That would then be the requirement of that family to hold the castle. As I said regardless of Dragonstone being manned it will be easily captured. They will see one, two, or three dragons and it is over after that. Out of 1000 men, over half would turn and run. So, I don’t think it is the Lannister’s responsibility to man the castle once given to someone else. Again I am speculating but I also don’t think it is feasible to man the castle well enough to put up a defense so it is an unimportant detail in regards to defense and attack.
We weren’t given enough information about the Naval battle I feel. The spoilers were sparse and the whole Dany Jon meeting came up around the same time. Your idea makes sense. It would also send the entire fleet of dany to Dragonstone which would scare the piss out of any defense. There wouldn’t even be a battle to take Dragonstone.
Your point on highgarden is interesting. The spoilers did say
I always wonder how good fighters are still alive after a battle they lose. but that is part where we need more information on, it would make sense for Dany to eventually get HighGarden, and have a force go from HighGarden to Casterly Rock but yea why is Jamie on top of the battlements? He did it when he took the Twins, maybe it is something he does or maybe he see a large figure in the sky far away not sure. They could be putting him up there just to get a good shot. But your point about who retreats and who wins in the “ambush” battle is interesting. We just don’t have any information regarding that.
Yes, Jon staying to mine dragonglass makes sense. especially when he runs into Jorah and Jorah has spoken to Sam. It has been brought up how important the dragonglass is on Dragonstone. so yeah, it would makes sense for Jon to stay behind a bit to get materials. Maybe Jon guides Greyworm through the Riverlands to get to Casterly Rock. Or maybe Dany simply sends 5-10 ships off early to go take Casterly Rock.
I guess I mainly debated with you because you said the Spoilers make no sense. I don’t think it is fair to say they don’t make sense because that is assuming we are getting spoiled on everything. We have so much information that we won’t know. We will get spoiled on the big things but the small details won’t be spoiled. Remember all the spoilers we got last year and no one had a clue about Hold the Door. I trust the GoT staff.
Of course there are casualties in war but so many thousands don’t have to die and that is what will happen if dany attacks Kings Landing without her dragons. Cersei won’t be going around killing large groups of people to continue the season. I think it has been stated that the show is jumping forward a bit, not starting right where we left. You could already see the crowd in the Throne Room when Cersei took the throne. The people were quiet and subservient already. Yes, Cersei will probably cut out some tongues but the people of Kings Landing will be hostages come the beginning of the season and will know better to not speak out. but still Cersei isn’t going to start committing Genocide on the Kings landing population. She is not the Mad King like everyone thinks she is. Of course if panic broke out any in city of the world my guess is the police wouldn’t be able to stop it but people just don’t do that, because they don’t have the stomach for it.
You made some interesting points that I didn’t understand before. nice.
King(s)layer,
Nope, someone will kill Cersei and there actually won’t be a battle for Kings Landing. Or Cersei hears of Westeros win vs Wight Walkers without her help and she burns the city with herself in it. I don’t know. I don’t think it will be the Lannisters defending the city from Dany. Something will happen that will give Dany or Jon the crown with Cersei dead and either a new location for capital begins or the gates will be open for Jon/Dany after Cersei is dead.
Inga,
But what about the scene
. Yes, this is where the spoilers don’t make sense, because we don’t have enough info. We also are speculating that the castle for HighGarden could be used as Casterly Rock as well. So Tyrion could be at the Ambush Scene because he is actually doing a Casterly Rock scene. Jon could be getting to Dragonstone after the ambush took place and Tyrion is back already. Dany could simply be out riding her dragon for practice/fun and that is when she flies by Jon and Davos the first time. I mean there are a lot of reasons why.
I don’t think the leaks are wrong I just think we don’t have enough information again. I don’t think there will be any wedge put between Dany and Jon
I think they disarm Jon because it is the right thing to do.
Irena,
No way all the leaks are fabricated. to much information matches. Where are you getting this information?
Clob,
Jon being “home alone” on Dragonstone is also probably a good episode to not have Jon Snow in it.
Inga,
You are right about how the Dothraki act, however, that was under old management. New management is in. Of course in war soldiers you lead will do bad things you don’t approve. Brienne had to kill 3 northerners at one point. But that is no reason to not allow the Dothraki to go off on a mission. Should they fail, they die. Should they win and act stupid, Dany will probably kill them. Should they win and act good. They live. This detail not going to be as important in the show as it would in the books. Second, The Dothraki will probably be lead by someone Dany trusts and also Westerosi because how do the Dothraki know how to get to Highgarden without someone from Westeros over seeing the travel? My whole point is I could care less how the Dothraki act in victory because I think Dany has control and anyone who doesn’t follow will be disciplined accordingly.
Landing scenarios are tough. We have been told Dorne, possibly Storms End and Dragonstone. Clearly putting a portion of men at different locations can help, here is why. Say they land Dothraki and Tyrell’s in Dorne, they say go to HighGarden and secure the Reach. Ironborn and Sand Snakes are sent to stormlands to keep an eye on the bay and Crownlands, well Euron is teamed with Cersei so he can swiftly get to them for an attack. That allows the people who got away to get to Dragonstone to lick their wounds like Stannis did. The Dothraki also being dropped in dorne makes sense because they can get to HighGarden without people from the capitol noticing, which allows for an ambush. I am not worried about who is leading the Dothraki and how they handle themselves. I am guessing dany hears about the sack of highgarden because olenna sends a letter to Dragonstone/Varys. That is when Dany hops on and heads to highgarden because a battle is about to take place. How does Dany get there is time? Well she has a dragon, she could take Tyrion with her, which means TYRION RIDES A DRAGON! that would explain tyrion being at the battle and also back at Dragonstone to meet Jon. is it bad writing to have her show up just in time? Nope, Tywin did that with his army in season 2 and Baelish that with the Vale last season. Stannis showed up at the right time at the wall. If you don’t like timing then TV, movies, books or anything telling a story is probably crappy in your eyes lol.
How does a Dragon become useless? This might be the most asinine thing stated on this message board? They weren’t prepared when taking Viserion and a dragon goes down when they look to take a wight walker. How will the Night King take the other two next time and one would think that how to attack would change because of a dragon being killed previously. They still can amazingly kill a bunch of wights in one fell swoop. Jon and his dragon fight the nights king and his dragon while dany cleans up the battle field. You make zero points on how killing one dragon automatically assumes the other two will die. Please explain why you feel this way? I don’t get this point you are trying to make. It is pure speculation to because we have ZERO information on how a dragon dies.
Sean C.,
Martin has always said there will probably inexplainable errors about his battles and number of men involved. But a point I made previously, the lannisters are always training new forces, especially in the books. One has to assume they are still doing that. Also, The show probably said the Lannisters have the biggest army over the Tyrells because for a TV show that makes them more feared adversary. Just for effect.
Priscila,
.
Stargaryen,
Rhaegar already had son with this name and nothing in the books points to it. So, no don’t buy this part.
Geralt of Rivia,
Little Aegon was dead by the point of Jon’s birth, so he could be named Aegon too. I don’t imagine D&D would change this detail from the source material.
Inga,
Great conversation happening. most likely we will all be wrong and hopefully surprised by some things that aren’t even mentioned in these comments or articles!
Stargaryen,
Oh, so many posts to answer… I’ll try to be short.
1) When I say something like the leaks or spoilers don’t make sense, I mostly mean that there is some piece of information missing. But there might be some minor errors two: people misinterpret what they see or overhear or choose a wrong wording to describe it. As a medievalist I always have the same issue with real historical sources and historiography too. So, here I’m basically trying to test my analytical skills.
2) Splitting the forces. Again, sorry for speaking as a medievalist and someone interested in modern warfare as well, but communications between the troops and the commandment has always been a major issue. Even now battles can be lost exclusively due to “loss of communication”, and before invention of electronic communications (starting with telegraph) it was practically impossible to carry out an offensive with several army groups. So, up till the 19th century most of the commanders used to keep their forces in bulk and lead them personally just to be able to make prompt decisions in a changing environment and communicated them to the lower level without delay. And though GoT is a fantasy show, so far it has been following the rules of medieval warfare more or less. We saw forces being split but only for individual tasks and every time they were equipped with a proper command: an acting character, not some extra. And Team-Dany has very few characters who could act as potential commanders: there are Yara & Theon (fleet); Grey Worm (the Unsullied), the Dothraki dude played by Staz Nair (the Dothraki); Dany herself is an air-force commander, and Tyrion may step in to fill some hole. That’s all, and I don’t see how the show could change that in like 3 episodes. So, I assume that Dany will keep her forces in bulk, though everything is possible.
4) Control over the Dothraki. I have already written: people go crazy at war and indulge into violence; no punishments can prevent that. I don’t think the show will have time to address that, but that’s one of the reasons why it would be easier for the showrunners to keep the Dothraki in bulk under Dany’s direct supervision.
5) Cersei’s reign. Here we have a major disagreement, because for me all that set-up with Little Birds scream only one word: TERROR and public revolt as a consequence. I still have hopes for the finale, because I don’t want citizens of KL experiencing that “For every Christmas we were promised…” But well, it looks like we will have to wait till S8.
6) Wight dragon. Basically, the WW should be helpless against dragons: we haven’t seen them having any king of mechanical artillery (ballistas or crossbows), we haven’t seen them using even an ordinary bow, and we haven’t been given any hints that they could use anything like that: their weapons and armament are rather primitive, and wights are no archers either. So, flying dragons should be beyond their reach; Visserion will have to land to be overrun by the wights. But why should it land? My crazy idea is that Viserion’s death will be somehow facilitated by humans: maybe it will be wounded during the ambush battle and flies to the Wall sick and exhausted, maybe there will be some other twist. I simply have a feeling that Cersei’s endgame in this story is playing sort of the “fifth column” facilitating the WW invasion or incapacitating the ultimate weapon (dragons) in the hour of the direst need. But one way or another, Visserion’s death should be caused primarily by human error, which won’t be repeated and that will save the other two. If the Night King simply had and anti-dragon weaponry, than using dragons would become too risky.
Inga,
I will take leaks with a grain of salt based on the story. History won’t do us any good at this point because even though the show is realistic it is still fiction and some things can be stretched. Also, this is a show of making choices and what are the reprucussions of those choices. Jon doesn’t want to fight anymore since being reborn. He didn’t want to have that battle of bastards.
I respect that you don’t see it reasonable for Jon to stay at Dragonstone. I have provided examples in earlier responses as to why Jon would be there alone and also how Jon would not be there alone. I don’t think Jon wants Cersei as an ally. But what he wants is to fight the Wight Walkers and save Westeros from the Long Night. He believes, and you know he believes it, he needs every able fighting body in Westeros to stand against the WW. So he will choose to bite the bullet and attempt an alliance with Cersei/Lannisters because having the largest army on the battlefield is important. Yes, we all know he should side with Dany on taking down the Lannisters, uniting Westeros and then taking on the walkers. But it appears he doesn’t choose that route, instead he attempts diplomacy. well
that is the name of the show, action and reaction it has always been about that. I understand that Cersei could discredit Jon which could lead to why they need to get proof.
Jon absolutely should NOT go with Dany to Highgarden. he is the King in the North.
dragonbringer,
Well he tried to save all those lives by just fighting Ramsay one on one. he didn’t want the battle. Why? because all those deaths could become Wights when the Nights King comes. Did you not catch that point at the end of last season?
Geralt of Rivia,
ugh, this has been explained so many times. The Lannisters have the largest army in Westeros for multiple reasons. one, just like the books the Lannister are able to replenish their forces quicker than any other kingdom. They are in the process in the books from the beginning training multiple new forces. Also, the Lannisters have not had to be in a battle since Blackwater, SEASON 2! That was the last battle for the Lannisters in the show. Lastly, you make the Lannisters the biggest army so that future storylines are better: ie Jon wants Lannisters to help w/ WW because they are biggest army. Lannister army is more feared by the casual tv viewer because they are the largest army in Westeros.
The WW are magical, supernatural beings that have been shown to have extraordinary strength and described as being able to move extremely fast. While their weapons may look primitive they have the ability to make them out of ice that is stronger than steel and ‘screeches’ when touched by fire.
Inga,
1. I gotcha, of course some of the leaks don’t make sense. They didn’t last year. There were a couple things last year I remember where the leaks pissed people off because they quickly speculated some bad writing was taking place lol
2. Everything you say makes sense and would be considered for the book. but the show being so dumbed down in regards to the books I just don’t see communication becoming an issue in the show. I look at everything from a television perspective not a history perspective. We just view it differently. But after reading more spoilers if true [it does appear the ambush happens after meeting Jon. Does Dany send men as soon as they land or does she send men after hearing about Highgarden being sacked? only thing I can say in regards to these situations is traveling and travel time need to be thrown out of consideration. We have seen some people take multiple episodes to travel while we see some characters travel lots of locations in one episode. I guess what needs to be confirmed here is does Dany order the “ambush” after Highgarden is sacked or does Dany send men to take Highgarden and protect Olenna, they don’t make it in time, olenna send a raven to dragonstone saying the castle is being sacked, so they plan the ambush and Dany leaves on her dragon to meet up with her already marching forces? Just a situation where we need more information.
4. Again I think you are looking way to much in to this. Yes is assimilation important, of course. Jon has to deal with it for the Wildlings. But again this is something so detailed it needs to be for the books. Yes I am curious how this will be handle in the Song of ice and fire story but I think it will be more shown in the books than the show. only 13 episodes left. I really don’t want them to waste time on Dothraki assimilation for more than half a scene the rest of the way.
5. Again I don’t disagree with you but I think your idea is just more extreme. yes, I think Cersei will still be killing or maiming or locking up people who openly say bad things about her or the Lannisters in general. This will lead to some scenes of her ordering bad things. The show is notorious for piling on how bad some people are or become. But open revolt most likely will not be a thing. I understand why won would think that but watch the final scene again with her on the throne. She walks down an aisle where Lannister soldiers block her from the commoners the whole way. People will be to scared to revolt. Say what you want about Cersei, but in one clean swoop she made Kings landing fear her like they use fear Tywin.
6. The wights are helpless to the dragons. The nights king can only be defeated by the dragon if the dragon rips him into multiple pieces. fire won’t kill those wights. Yes, something has to happen obviously for Viserion to be killed. I don’t think an anti-dragon weapon for the wights is out of the realm of possibility. I think what we know is that one does die. But that doesn’t automatically mean that the other two are dead to begin with. Dragons are not immune to battles. The original 3 targaryens lost a dragon fighting the dornish. It can happen. hell drogon got injured in the arena in season 5. Just because there is anti-dragon weaponry does not mean dragons should not be used. Yes, the show will make it seem like bronn doing it is easy. but that does not mean to not use dragons in future fights. Viserion is simply a casualty, they will still have two to their one on the dragon side.
Inga,
You are right but we are not talking about revolution here , most people will try to flee than help especially after what happened to the Sept. You are calm , you remove the barrel from where you found it and suddenly a scared person running away pushes you and BOOM. Like in a robbery when there is always one hostage who doesn’t cooperate because he is afraid.I am from Eastern Europe too. But of what we saw in season 2 and angry or scared mob from KL is very dangerous ( they didn’t rebelled against their tyrant as an organized team, they randomly killed people and raped handmaidens , creating chaos just to create chaos ).
konna,
It’s nice to meet someone from CEE here. Which country are you from, if its not a secret?
Anyway, you made a very good point. Revolutions, just like wars or any other violent solutions have many shades of gray, or rather shades of red: from pinkish idealism and scarlet heroism to crimson gruesomeness of all kinds of atrocities they inevitably bring). And the show-runners have always been fair about that: we saw Davos paying the dude who provoked the mob to attack the royal family (including Sansa) in S2, we saw Lord Karstark killing Lannister boys in S3, and Mossador killing captive Son of the Harpy in S4; we have been constantly reminded about the tragic fate of Ellia Martell and her children, etc. (BTW, that’s why I thought that Dany might have a similar situation with the Dothraki next season too.) But despite of all risk factors, I see some kind of a public revolt as an only solution for Westeros. It’s a realm build on lies and conquest upon conquest, if it is to survive it has to find some more reliable foundation/social contract, otherwise what does it matter who is the next conqueror, and why would the Night King should be denied ius belli everyone else feels entitled to exercise? It would be RACIST, don’t you think?
As for wildfire, I am not sure whether it can be neutralized at all. There could be solutions probably, but with all these caches hidden all over the place, I would say that the best solution would be to evacuate the city or rather to encourage the city to evacuate itself. There would be blood (sure), but the trade would be between several thousands and several hundred thousand, and even if that provokes Cersei to blow the city right away, KL citizens deserve to die on their feet, not on their knees.
Sue, I thought it was a great article and an easy read!
I thought you should have called out those publications who don’t cite you and your site as a source! Shame on them!
Indeed, this is a general gun that the show (and, to a much lesser extent, the books) have hung well in advance. The WW seem to smother flame with their mere presence, which hugely neutralizes the primary weapon of dragons. Now, does this cover dragon fire? We don’t know that it does not, and Occam’s Razor says assume the simplest idea (WW smother flames) until a more complex idea (WW smother only some types of flame) is shown to be true. We also have seen that they seem to have some ability to control ice, snow, etc., that might be comparable to how R’hllor controls fire.
Deprived of fire, the dragons would be giant flying lizards. Now, a giant flying lizard is still one heck of a force: but it’s not clear that it’s a particularly useful one against White Walkers themselves.
Nothing in the books points to any name that Lyanna gave to Jon, so this is a negative evidence argument. (Remember, there were a lot of people convinced that Lyanna was not Jon’s mother: that really limits what we can say with certainty quite severely!)
Lyanna could have named Jon anything she chose. Moreover, if Rhaegar was convinced that it was to be someone named Aegon who was so important to the prophecy (a possibility), and if Lyanna was informed about the prophecy (which seems near certain given her complicity in events), and if Lyanna knew that the eldest son was reported to be dead (which is also a near-certainty), then it becomes possible (possible x near-certain x near-certain) that she names Rhaegar’s son Aegon.
That also would be very much in keeping with a GRRM story. Jon hates the Lannisters & wishes them ill; Jon needs the Lannisters in order to save things he values. So, what is Jon to do?
Of course, the bigger wild-card will be Cersei. She’ll never believe that White Walkers are an issue until she actually sees one: and even then, she probably would think that it was some Northerner in a silly costume. And Cersei will never see anything as important as Cersei.
Wimsey,
In fact, you may be on a right track, Wimsey. I know quite a few real history cases, when children were given the same name repeatedly, when the first one died. I checked some of them looking for parent’s motivations: pretty often there was some promise/oath to some saint to name a child after him/her, if he/she answers some prayer or similar. So, here we might have a similar case: for instance, if some more extensive version of the PTWP version said that the PTWP will be named Aegon… Wait! Rhaegar is basically quoting that in Dany’s HOTU vision! Yes, it should be that!
And what it Aegon the Conqueror was inspired and motivated by the same prophecy? It may come from Daenys the Dreamer, and be the motive behind most of the Targaryan actions and decisions (at least behind the most important ones).
Inga,
I’ve read of such cases, too. After all, it was really important that the eldest surviving son be named X: but you never knew which boy that was going to be. (Alternatively, younger sons would be renamed after the eldest son died.)
The important point is that it could be. I am sure that with a little effort, someone else could construct another plausible scenario that led Lyanna to name the baby Aegon. However, there is not going to be anything in the books or show to support or contradict any name: what both basically gave us was a puzzle where Lyanna = Jon’s mother was a very parsimonious explanation for a number of apparent inconsistencies. However, given that (at one point) there were a lot of fans convinced that Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother, there obviously was nothing pointing to what Jon’s mother (whoever she was) was going to name him!
The one possible exception to this of which I can think is: why would Ned have let a child that he wanted the world to think was a bastard be named “Jon” when Ned’s mentor/father figure was named Jon? You do not go around naming bastards after people as an honor! (Particularly given that Jon Arryn seemed to be a fairly straight-laced sort of guy.) Ned would have been expected to name his 3rd or 4th son “Jon” instead. As “Jon” sort of retains part of “Aegon,” this might have been the closest Ned could find to a name that would retain part of his sister’s last wishes.
Inga,
More like Southern-Eastern Europe, Greece.Last revolution we had was in the 70’s ( dictatorship).Many died , especially university studens , many chose not to but that was a time where killing protesters had very different consicoenses than it did during the middle-ages where no one cared about the smallfolk.But i can see what you mean .During the dance of dragons the population rebelled against Rhaenyra and her dragons , many died but the Queen was forced to flee King’s Landing .Something similar can happen to Cersei.
Thanks for sharing. 🙂