It’s no secret that people are really anxious for The Winds of Winter, the long-awaited sixth novel in the A Song of Ice and Fire series. It’s been nearly eight years since the most recent installment, A Dance With Dragons, was published in 2011, and the popularity of the series has only grown since the show premiered that same year. Some are also increasingly worried that George R.R. Martin won’t actually finish the books, despite recent reports that he’s holed up in the same undisclosed location he goes to when he’s worked on previous books. Hopefully, a recent post from George himself will do even more to put those fears to rest.
In an entry on his blog titled “Two Weeks to Remember,” George starts by expressing his gratitude for the warm reception for the recently published Fire & Blood, the first half of a sprawling history of the Targaryens — from his appearance on Late Night with Stephen Colbert to the sold-out launch event in his home state of New Jersey.
The intriguing part of the entry came at the end, when he not only thanked his fans for their patience in waiting for Winds, he assured us all that the book — and some other projects — are coming:
“And most of all, my thanks go out to my fans and readers. I know you want WINDS, and I am going to give it to you… but I am delighted that you stayed with me for this one as well. Your patience and unflagging support means the world to me.
Enjoy the read. Me, I am back in my fortress of solitude, and back in Westeros. It won’t be tomorrow, and it won’t be next week, but you will get the end of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Meanwhile, you have the final season of GAME OF THRONES coming, and the new show that is not yet officially called THE LONG NIGHT being cast, and a couple more shows still being scripted… and a few other cool things in the works as well.
Winter is not the only thing that is coming.”
Not only does George again reference the “fortress of solitude” he writes from, but he gave some tantalizing hints that more is on the horizon. We know about the spin-off currently in the works, but more shows being scripted? Other “cool things” in the pipeline? Let us know what you think he means!
A challenge, fellow Watchers: Let’s see how far we can take this thread before someone posts a “fat lazy bastard/it’ll never happen/we should boycott the books” GRRM-bashing comment! Arya with me?
Hodor!
I think this is positive news. I really hope George is back in Westeros. You can dot it GRRM. Prove all the nay sayers wrong!!!
Cool beans. 😊
It will never happen. I say we boycott the fat lazy bastard’s books.
If he writes TWOW in a “right” way, I could see this story being over in 7 books. And right way means something like the ending of S6 where you can feel that everything is set up for the endgame.
He has 20 POV characters now. I don’t know how is he going to put them all in one book, but he needs no more than 10 POV characters left for ADOS if he wants that book to be the last one.
The best option would be to already have Daenerys and Tyrion in Westeros by the end of TWOW, or at least to have her sail there like in S6. Starks need to be in control of the North by the end of TWOW. Sansa needs to leave the Vale, Bran to leave the cave and Arya to leave Braavos.
If the book ends in the right place I could see GRRM being faster with ADOS, but I think it will still take him at least 3-4 years to finish that book.
mau,
You summed this up very well. Having so many POV characters is just not a recipe for goodness.
The most important thing is that GRRM needs to truly enjoy working on this story again and he needs to believe in himself again, to believe that he will finish the story. And he needs passion for the story, the passion that he lost. The same passion that he had for Fire and Blood and TWOIAF.
Without that, everything is pointless. If he starts enjoying working on ASOIAF again he will write really fast, like he did for those history books.
So TWOW is key to everything. If he fails with that book all hope that the story will be finished will be lost. But if he finds a way to put 20 POV characters in one book and still put everything where it should be for the endgame, I think he will have far more confidence going into ADOS, he will be excited to write that book as fast as he can.
He needs to claen the mess he created with AFFC and ADWD.
Well, after having to provide an ending to D&D and HBO, he had a “fixed target” to write towards. Less gardening and more pruning and harvesting. However, it much more boring work to write with discipline. I hope he manages it….
Anyway, this note should help the section of his public that is refusing to buy Fire & Blood to forgive him and buy the book currently on the shelves.
Anyway, he is old, let him do whatever he wants. For example, he could use ghostwriter staff to help out. The unknown ending has resulted in a small industry of speculation – not a bad thing.
mau,
You are right, but also think that maybe the story will not be the same, something that didn’t happen in the series can happen in the books, even something that make things easier or faster…
David Blacksmith,
It doesn’t need to be the same, but it needs the same feeling S6 had, “we are in the endgame now”.
Fat lazy bastard ! It will never happen ! We should boycott the books ! Here’s a frying pan to bash George’s head ! HOT PIE WITH ME !
There, we should be safe for now.
I did see the NYT bestseller list of Dec 9! And I was happy for F&B and for Martin as well. I didn’t expect the NaB post but obviously it must have hovered at the back of his mind this idea that the Fire & Blood book is not good enough or exciting enough for the fans in order to elicit a whole post. It’s good enough I think 😊. An entertaining read for an Asoiaf fan like myself. And according to NYT at least – 9k-10k copies sold in a week- good enough, and that’s not counting any digital or audio sales.
I have faith in him. Totally know he’s pimping his Wild Craps when he should be doing other stuff and I hope there are fans of those books as well for his sake. But he is a good storyteller and I have never believed he’d be letting me hang with this huge ass story on a cliffhanger while he can still push those keyboard buttons and is able to fire up his Wordstar 4.0. Not that I’m anyone special, of course, just that I’m sure there are hundreds of me out there that like his writing and his Planetos universe, so when I say “me” I really mean “us”.
Arkash,
Lol I felt an insane desire to type that myself for some reason when I read Finnarion’s post, because why even start a thread with a post like that?! But someone beat us to it. I blame Harma dogememe, completely. He should be fed to the dogs!
mau,
I wish I knew what mess you’re talking about. Those silly POVs he added that you keep mentioning were there for a reason. He needed them to get out of the “mess” of having “eyes” in different parts of the world that narrate what power players are doing. Power players he couldn’t give a voice to. If he got himself into a situation with too many PoVs I’m sure he can get himself out should he need to.
It’s a promise that isn’t within his control to keep, but I hope he does manage to finish the series. I hope that more for him than for the fans, who will have some sort of ending regardless.
Because I knew from prior experience that the discussion was going to go there almost instantly, because people love to complain about him. So I figured I might use humor to cut out at least a little of the negative venting – or deflect it going into an extreme spiral of wounded entitlement – by invoking some preemptive shame.
TormundsWoman,
Yeah. We can see how easy it is to get out of the mess he created lol.
What mess? No focus, too many characters, bad pacing, structural problems and so on.
The scuttlebutt I’ve been hearing is that GRRM really did kind of free himself up psychologically by completing Volume One of Fire and Blood, material for which he’d been compiling for many, many years. There’s a school of thought that a lot of background stuff that he felt obligated to incorporate into the novels now exists on paper, where curious readers can access it as “history,” so that now he no longer needs to go off on so many tangents. Makes his task feel more manageable, I suppose. Certainly the tone of his blog posts and public appearances has been feeling lighter of late.
I’ve already bought Fire and Blood, and have hopes that ingesting it before Winds comes out will help me get more out of the latter, in much the same way that reading the appendices to LotR as well as The Silmarillion added depth in retrospect to my appreciation of Middle Earth.
Firannion,
Well if TWOW is out next year than F&B did help. And if it’s not….
mau,
Then*
Don’t do that. I didn’t say he created a mess, I pointed out the reasons of why he had that many added POVs in Feast and Dance. It was you who said he created a mess with AFfC and ADwD.
If you really think he did that you should understand that supposed problem (if you must call it a mess and problem) arose with the previous books, really. ASOS left him with no one in KL so you needed Cersei as POV, the Ironborn were left nowhere since your only established Greyjoy was prisoner in the North and you have seven kingdoms so clearly you need POVs from Dorne who’s one of those kingdoms. That right there adds you one Lannister, 3 Greyjoy’s and 3 Dorne (however if you think well about it, it’s only 4 Dornish chapters in Feast alone so I really count that kingdom as one POV with multiple eyes for different locations).
It is almost looks like you’re complaining that the Ironborn and Dorne finally joined the frey. Which is funny considering that these are also Westerosi kingdoms. Maybe you wanted for the Game of Thrones to be played by 5 Kingdoms alone.
Good grief, to think I’ve read this argument of yours so many times on this site and it still makes me shake my head in disbelief. 😔
Firannion,
Trolls have no shame though. At least in my experience. I suspect if this was a busier time of the year, they would have taken your post as a challenge and we’d be bogged down in Those type of pessimistic posts. But if you really think it was worth a shot, who am ito say different. I much prefer the classic Hodor myself.
TormundsWoman,
I want him to be able to write the story. He can have 14 kingdoms if he wants, but it’s clear he is not able to control the story with 20 POV characters.
And Iron Islands and Dorne are not only one POV with several eyes, since all of these characters now have separate storylines. So it’s 5 new storylines for TWOW.
He was able to tell complex and interesting storylines in KL in ACOK and ASOS with 2 POV characters and now he needs 3 for Dorne and Iron Islands?
For all I care he can have 50 POV characters if he is able to control the narrative, but he is not.
And Dorne and Iron Islands are least of his problems. He wrote 5 chapters for Sam where he just travelled. 8 chapters for Brienne. 12 chapters for Tyrion! No climax, no resolution, no destionation, just set up for future books.
3 chapters for Sansa that are just set up. Davos who had 4 chapters and both of these storylines ended just when they are about to begin.
As I said, complete mess.
I’m seeing a common refrain: “Too many POV characters” and “20 POV characters are too many.” If he needs to “weed his garden”, why not clean house the way the showrunners did?
Gather 10 of those 20 in a Sept and blow them up with wildfire. Problem solved.
Alternatively, as much as it may hurt him to euthanize characters, resort to the show’s “Dornish Solution”: if a detour is leading to nowhere or detracting from the main stories, nip it in the bud. Stop the bleeding; cauterize the wound.*
* “No fire! No fire! … Shut up about it! Shut up about everything!”
– Sandor Clegane
Yeah, you’re right, big guy. I haven’t even read the books yet so I shouldn’t be weighing in on this.
mau,
Oh I’m sorry, I forgot Tyrion’s 12 chapters had to have a resolution…. Because he just committed parricide and he should have stayed in Westeros where everyone trusts a kinslayer and a Lannister dwarf to boot 👀
What resolution were you expecting?! Where in the name of the Seven would he found a resolution in Westeros with no ally whatsoever unless it meant him being killed?! Of course he was bound to take a trip abroad! And he’s a damn POV from the beginning.
Sansa is in the Vale hidding in a new environment. I don’t see 3 set up chapters as a mess. I cannot think of a single way as to why you’re complaining. Were you waiting for her to have one chapter, have a breakthrough change of character and revolutionize the Vale and rally her to her cause?’ A what, 13-14 yr old with LF as the only link to the Lords? I think your standards are way too high.
Davos, Sam and Brienne are having their own missions on behalf of the main POVs so it’s a bit difficult to understand what you want Martin to do about it. (Edit: not have missions I suppose 😆)
Sam has to get to Oldtown for whatever reason (I know what but from the show obvi) and during this trip he needs to find out about the damned prophecy because it’s important.
Davos is in the North covering ground for Stannis and he is a fly on the Wall for the Northern Lords feeling towards what’s happening. You need to know what these dudes feel (if anything) about the War that’s coming in their backyard in order to understand what will happen later with the Bolton’s and Freys.
Maybe you could cut Brienne. At most she’s “failing” at her mission to find Sansa and later Arya but I think she’s the character that’s meant to show what’s the spirit of the common folk in the Riverlands after the ravages of war. Plus she’s meant to be there as Uncat has some issues left for her to resolve. I could understand you were not enamoured with her story but it’s definitely not a mess.
Just a note on how weird it sounds when I read your comment on 2-3 characters presenting interesting storylines in ACoK. The Starks (Cat and Jon included here) had a total of 51 chapters with 6 POVs originating from WF. The idea that 3 POVs for Dorne in Feast (4 chapters total in the whole book) to present their House, their reactions to the Westerosi War, the death of Oberyn and the fallout is too much, well, that’s just incredible to me.
I think you’d be happier if you skipped anything that doesn’t have the original POVs in it. You can read the spark notes on the rest and you’d be happier too. Frankly, I’d be happier!
The real warrior of Light. I cracked up!
Well, I for one am finally excited by the NaB news! Winds!!🌬❄
Yes, I realize it won’t be as quickly as we’d all like but I am encouraged by George’s seeming positivity. That dragon fire is burning again fueling his need and love for ASoIaF. Looking forward to Fire and Blood. (holding out till Christmas)😉 talk about hard when it’s on a shelf ready to buy! Love getting more background/history. Those crazy cool Targaryens🐲
Can’t wait to find out what other projects, asoiaf related, come through.
Meanwhile, Nightflyers has been great to watch and read. Love what they have done with it.
So here’s to George and his fortress of solitude! 🍻 Long may he write! 👑 (just finish our beloved world first 😉 please
TormundsWoman,
What you said! Har!
TWOW are taking so long as George is still story building. He has a million things going on and has no idea how to wrap it up and set the stage for the end game. Hopefully the way he is talking we should get TWOW in 2020. Then ADOS will just be writting the ending. No story building so that should take no more than two years.
I’ve said all along that Winds is mostly finished but for some editing. HBO gave him an offer he couldn’t refuse. “Hold off on releasing Winds, as not to create any negative buzz on the biggest most expensive show of all time, & they will make another Grand show from his characters”. I’m sure someone on here will say GRRM would never sacrifice his integrity like that but I disagree. That’s just my opinion & I’m truly ok with it if that is the case because I expect the books to give us plenty of stories that the show has skipped and bypassed. So no need to compare & contrast while the show is going on anymore. We can do all that afterwards for years…
I also feel like F&B is a kind of history lesson for Winds (mainly Young Griff) to setup the next Blackfyre or Dance of Dragons without him having to do it all in Winds (that probably helped him finish Winds more quickly).
Lastly, I think the POV problem will be solved because Winds is going to be a bloodbath. Many characters that we book readers have grown to love and are POV characters will not be seeing a Dream of Spring (For example, I have a feeling that Davos will never make it off of Skagos. He’s gonna end up a meal for Rickon & the other Skagosi.). The fewer POV’s will make Dream a much easier book to finish.
Completely agree.
Not much to add except that I very much agree with Mau & Ten Bears.
“Winter is not the only thing that is coming.”
…That’s what she said. >w>
TormundsWoman,
Whatever. If you have no problem wih reading 130 chapters where almost nothing happens and everything is just world building and set up good for you. if you have no problem with characters just travelling without achieving anything, without arriving anyhere, that’s fine.
But some of us are not masohists.
GRRM is struggling in the last 18 years. He himself said that. There is no point in denying it.
TormundsWoman,
What resolution? How about if Tyrion actually meets Danerys, who he spent 12 chapters traveling to?
Sansa’s arc in Feast could have been her rallying the Vale lords, if Martin had committed to her story. Instead, he gave 2 and a half chapters of filler and then ended her Feast “story” right after it started kicking into high gear, leaving her out of Dance entirely.
Sam hasn’t even begun his mission, as he only arrived at Oldtown in his last chapter. He could have learned about the prophecy there. Davos’s chapters were actually ok, but they ended on a very big cliffhanger. Brienne’s chapters were a complete waste of time.
Comparing the Starks with the Martells is apples and oranges. The Starks are main characters, the Martells are not. And the only thing I learned about them is the vast majority of House Martell are extremely stupid.
People are horrible to/about him. They really don’t get how difficult it must be. Even without the pressure (both self-imposed and from fans), and even without the other projects, wrapping up a story of this magnitude in a satisfying way is a gargantuan task.
Thousands upon thousands of pages of brilliant fantasy. There aren’t many who have done it in history. And I for one am very happy to have The World of Ice and Fire as well as Fire and Blood.
They aren’t your average, tame, compendiums that simply summarize the info already found in the novels. They’re big books that give tons of new content.
So it’s not like we haven’t had Westeros related books the last 7 years. We’ve had two. For those who actually enjoy reading about this world and who aren’t just waiting for the next part of the story, that’s awesome.
mau,
9 chapters. That’s how many Dorne + Iron Islands chapters there were in AFFC.
10 in ADWD, if you count Quentyn. Not much.
Young Dragon,
Agree with everything you said. In the last two books Brienne and Quentyn Martell are bigger characters than Sansa and Bran. Brienne is bigger characters than Arya!
GRRM needs to focus. This is the story about Targaryans, Starks and the Lannisters. They are the core of the story. Everyone else is secondary.
He can have Martell POV or Greyjoy’s. Even Tyrells. But if you are going to give 12 chapters to Tyrion and 10 to Daenerys let them actually achieve something.
And Jon’s story is also too slow once Stannis leaves. 13 chapters for that?
TormundsWoman,
I normally find your posts insightful – I may not always agree (or reply) but I have a problem when people call folks holding differing opinions “trolls”. I hope TWoW comes out as much as anyone – especially for the loyal fans who have championed GRRM when some have detracted him. Anyone is free to buy a book (or not). I personally have no interest in buying Fire and Blood but I’m not saying other people should not purchase it if they wish. I’ll bide my time and see what happens about TWoW. Apart from the Arya preview chapter those preview chapters that have been printed online haven’t interested me that much – I like Sansa as a character but I didn’t like her TWoW chapter. But that’s my personal opinion. Sorry Tormundswoman, I hope I don’t seem as if I’m getting at you but I have a bit of a pet peeve about “troll” and “shill” (I know you didn’t use the word “shill”) being used online (not just on this site) to describe people holding an opinion at variance with that of the original poster.
Nick20,
That’s why I said Dorne and Iron Islands are least of his problems. Just compare 12 chapters Jon had in ASOS to 13 chapters he had in ADWD and everything becomes clear.
“It won’t be tomorrow, and it won’t be next week, but you will get the end of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.”
TWoW release in two weeks confirmed!!
/s
I thought I would add another post to explain that I do appreciate the good things that GRRM does. It’s no secret I preferred the first three books (so far published) of ASOIAF to the latter two and I appreciate other people may hold a different opinion to me. I may not consider him the subverter of tropes some of my fellow readers/viewers do but I’ll give credit where it’s due. I don’t want to spoil anything for people who haven’t read the books and might want to do so in the future. Suffice to say impersonations real and fake have occurred in history (Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel) and literature (well if we consider folk tales there is “The Goose Girl”) so, apart from the fact that what the character involved underwent was so nasty, the F—–a impersonation (where the character had impersonation forced upon her) was not a bad subplot in the book and I did feel really sorry for that character.
This idea doesn’t come from me, but I forget who suggested it now, but I read something online somewhere where somebody mused what Mr Martin made of people thinking book Euron was “awesome”. I didn’t like book Euron but I got the feeling that Mr Martin had created the character as a monster – and then some of the fandom think he’s “awesome”. Obviously it’s not for me to say what other people should or should not think but I wouldn’t find book Euron awesome anymore than I would find book (or show) Joffrey and Ramsay. A character can be intriguing even if he or she is not a nice character of course.
No need to be sorry, it is good that trolls have you speaking up for them. Some of them can be super funny and I do read some of the “fat lazy bastard/it’ll never happen/we should boycott the books” comments that I was referring to and the original post was mentioning, because it’s surprising to see the new insults that come from those comments. Some especially on twitter (since you mention other sites/ platforms) can be quite creative and if they are in a different language they sound downright dirty hilarious to me. But I have a hard time believing those are posts meant to engage in conversation about anything. I truly think those are meant to annoy and get a rise out of people which is what trolling is. At best is simply venting frustration.
As for dissenting opinions, I am not sure I understand: Mau and I have been having dissenting opinions right here. While it may look like I hate his opinion, I don’t and I definitely don’t think he’s a troll. He’s just passionate about his first three books and wants everything that comes out of Martin to be like those. If I have the impression that I lump those together, I definitely typed crap last night.
Firannion,
Calling a spade a spade isn’t “bashing”. We’re never getting the last book. TWOW maybe, but never ADOS.
If you read the post I responded to you will see that Mau started to compare 2,3 POVs in KL in previous books. I went further since he likes the first three books and mentioned the set up for the Starks that took a whole book and how advantageous that they split up to cover that much ground and need no extra POVs what with their 51 in the first. And I haven’t even mentioned the Lannisters, except Cersei which was new.
The problem is none of the original /main POVs can go to Dorne or to the Iron Islands to illustrate the situation of the two new kingdoms vis-a-vis to the war so yes, while both Greyjoys and Dornish POVs are minor POVs (which is why they have such a small amount of numbers), unless you completely skip these powers and mention them as a footnote, I don’t see how he could have done it.
However, Martin set them up in the previous books; as Wimsey likes to say, the guns were hanged. Balon was King of the Iron Islands by ASOS and his death have left that House and fleet up in he air by Feast. And I’ve already mention Oberyn and his death in ASoS. It’s not realistic to blame Feast and Dance “mess” for new Houses POVs being introduced, which was my point above.
I do like how you selected out of context what you wanted though. Makes me repeating myself a lot sillier even in my eyes.
The part about Tyrion is too long to discuss and I won’t bore anyone with Martin’s apparent need to psychologically give Tyrion a depth of character in a fantasy book after killing his father and dealing with the reality of what he did to his own wife, that mostly seems to piss off people. I found it well written myself but that’s a matter of taste I suppose. We will see what happens in Winds with him. I am quite excited about him and Penny myself.
TormundsWoman,
Too many typos to count and I can’t edit anymore. I feel like never ever writing another word. Now that Dame said my posts are sometimes insightful, I feel terrible about those typos, missing letters, rewrites of sentences where I left a verb at the wrong form or tense. Horrible. Whatever.
TormundsWoman,
I don’t want his later books to be like the first 3. I want him to write the story that he is able to create in timely fashion. If he is able to write and finish a story with 35 POV characters, so be it, but it’s clear that he struggles. The story is too big for its own good.
He can write 10 books if he wants, the problem is that he chew more than he can bite.
Dorne is not a problem. Problem is that Jon in his 13 chapters in ADWD did far less than he did in his 12 chapters in ASOS. Characters are just waiting for the story to start and it’s not happening.
Aaaaaaand, there goes my coffee. LMAO
TormundsWoman,
TW, we all make typos sometimes. One of my faults is that I type on the fly and tend to do what I think is “editing” as I go along and then see there is something whackadoodle in my comment(s) when it is too late to go back and correct them. Sometimes autocorrect does some weird things – so it’s possible the “typos” that are driving you to distraction are the result of autocorrect having gone into overdrive. I wouldn’t want you to feel put off commenting by anything I said.
There were 20 years between the first batch* of Winston Graham’s “Poldark” novels and the second lot. That was because after a gap of several years the author started musing as to what might have happened to his characters after the events of his first set of novels in that series. I’ve said before I’m getting on in years so rather than worry about GRRM’s age I am more concerned about my own age which is only slightly younger than Mr Martin’s and whether I will be around some years hence if it takes a long time for the novels to be published. I don’t want to sound like a broken record (I’ve mentioned these two novelists before) but James A Michener and P D James lived long lives and were still writing at the end or at least very close to the end, so I’m not saying it is impossible for Mr Martin to finish his saga.
* Autocorrect changed “batch” to “watch” for me when I was typing this!
No need to bore you with the details, TW, but when I was ill over the last two years at one time I spent rather too much time on YouTube and fell into watching some conspiracy theory type videos. I had to learn the hard way one can’t argue with conspiracy theorists – but I tried making (to me at least) reasonable comments and saying what I thought were the flaws in some of the pro-conspiracy theory peoples’ arguments and have been called a “shill” or “troll” or that I was “working for the Illuminati” or perhaps the least unpleasant “Wake up Steeple”. I don’t believe in the Illuminati! But I’ve developed an aversion to being called a “troll” or a “shill”. You are quite right, sometimes “trolls” who tease can be quite funny – people who do it to be unpleasant, less so. However my sensitivity to being called a “troll” isn’t really your problem and perhaps I should not have made it such.
For all those who are complaining about 20 POV characters being too many, and whole books lugging along as only set up of things to come, I recommend that you read his short stories. The thing that impresses me most of GRRM’s writing style is that he is about 95% set up. This may sound bad, but it really makes for good writing. It leaves you guessing, sometimes lost, making theories, and then in the final page (or in ASOIAF probably final book) everything clicks into place, and you get this overwhelming feeling that you should have seen it all along.
None of the characters are “just traveling,” they are revealing their nature to the readers, as well as showing us more of their world. Sure, it’s not the writing style everyone likes, but you’ve got to respect the man for all the effort he puts in and how wonderful the payoff is. Not once in the series has a plot twist seemed out of character or out of line, and not once have I predicted what would come next. That’s good writing.
I hated the last 2 books. I really had to force myself to keep on reading. Didn’t like the Ironborns, Martells and Sand Snakes. Didn’t like Sansa in the Vale, I prefer the show version where at least something happens. Didn’t like Brienne in the Riverlands or Dany in Mereen either. I’m glad the show made a lot of shortcuts, maybe a bit too many but at least something happens. Didn’t like the Sandsnakes and the Sansa-Arya conflict in the show, but luckily it didn’t last very long.
I don’t really feel like jumping into this debate again. I don’t think I necessarily disliked AFfC or ADwD as much as some while I was reading them. However, there was still disappointment after the fact that “my” characters, the initial mains, were sidelined so much. I can’t say that I would have preferred his initial consideration of a time jump to age some of those characters though.
The addition of so many characters in pov might not have been so jarring if they were blended more throughout within the existing pov’s. As it was written it almost felt like starting a new series while in the middle of reading a series. While I personally think Quentyn’s story arc was a waste of time, Arianne’s might end up rather exciting. With two preview chapters of her out there from TWoW it appears we’ll have plenty more. Again, I just hope that it’s mixed in more with pov chapters of our initial mains, or even team her up with some of them. I absolutely hate Euron and that stupid horn. THE worst inclusion to ASoIaF imo. Ohh… how convenient… 🙁
Like I’ve written before, George is a great world builder. As of the end of ADwD he was still building and judging by TWoW preview chapters he’s continuing to do so. He has to start breaking it down… soon.
mau,
Hi mau
You have so many opinions about GRRM’s work. When are we going to get to read some of your books. Perhaps you could finish WINDS for us?
Waiting……..
Okay so you all know me here, I haven’t read the books. I plan to read them at some point in the future, after the show is done, and hoping he at least releases TWOW
My question is regarding F&B, I bought the book. Would it make sense for me to read that now? or should I have read ASOIAF first?
I really don’t see the problem that people had with FfC. The Iron Island had one of the best parts of the story: The kingsmoot. Dorne had one of the best endings. Doran is amazing.
5 chapters of Sam just travelling?? Just traveling?? He went from the wall to Old town in just 5 chapters. We got information about Skagos, the place where Rickon is in the books (probably), he went to Braavos meet with Arya, which is a big set up for the end game. The dead of Eamon. The start of his love with Gilly. The introduction of Oldtown.
Brienne for me was one of my favorite chapters of the whole story because of one reason: How does the war affect the common people. And her change in those chapters. She took her first life in that book which was important for her character.
Theon was also very important etc.
About POV having different amount of chapters, I really don’t have a problem with that we didn’t get that much of Sansa, Bran, Arya etc. Because those chapters we got were amazing. Rather that than what we got for Dany, lots of chapters not much happening. That’s the only of 2 thing I disliked in those 2 books. The second was, he should have had one character more in FfC, that book was the shortest of them all. If he would have had one character there for instance Bran. He could have finished DwD with the 2 big battles, battle of Ice and battle of fire.
So I don’t disagree with you, partially I agree. But he set up a lot in SoS dorne, iron island etc that needed to be put in those books. Those stories didn’t really cover a lot of time and started chronically already in SoS. Meaning that he couldn’t really tell a lot for other characters, because of time frame. Hope you get what I mean.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Personally I think he is already finished with WoW. But that he didn’t get his deadline (season 6), and once he finished (i think after season 7) he needed to make a decision. Release the book before season 8, or after the show released the last season (only 6 episodes). Both had their pro’s and cons.
Releasing:
– the book and shows are different meaning the fans that read and watch the story need to switch a lot in their mind. Did that happen in the show for *character* or the books.
– Even when people read the WoW the show will even then be farther into the story nothing really new happening for the bigger picture. Meaning that we are disappointed no matter what (a little bit)
– The show was first, people will compare no matter what. The show have their endgame first. Releasing the book very soon after the show told the story,the story will be fresh, so people will compare more. I already have a feeling people will be disappointed if in the book Stannis takes winterfell and not Jon.
– There’s a big chance a lot of people will wait to buy the books after the show is finished (like me, not going to switch)
withholding:
– No switching, the show is done, the books are left. Focus remains there.
– Less comparison.
– Less time between WoW and DoS. Meaning he get praised when DoS will be released very soon after WoW.
– Only downside: People bitching to him.
+1 about my point that people will wait to buy the book after the show is done.
about your question: I didn’t read F&B yet. But personally I would say, read his books chronically, so wait till you read the books. But you need to hear a F&B expert on that.
*Whispers* All the other projects aren’t actually good news — they’re actually the problem for people wanting Winds
For the most part no. If anything, you’ll probably get more out of it since alot of what goes on in it is explained in bits and pieces through ASOIAF.
The extended lore is the same in both mediums, for the most part. Sam even reads a page of the irl TWOIAF :), so you should be safe.
Let him have his opinion. I don’t really share his opinion but that’s how he felt when reading those books, nothing wrong with that.
And even when something is a lot of work doesn’t mean you can’t criticize it. For instance the new showrunner of Dr Who work very hard on the latest season. Much praise for his work attic (is that the right word?) but story wise he fucked the show up (at least for me).
And I always find Mau reacting with a lot of respect, he has his opinion but he never insults etc.
Sh,
This site is meant to discuss things. As long as everyone is respectful to different opinions, I see no problem with it.
It’s a good thing GRRM writes the books and not me, because I would really suck at it. But that doesn’t mean he’s perfect. Thank God for that or this site would be very boring.
Sh,
Love this line of argumentation!
Don´t criticize Donald Trump – you´ve never been POTUS, you don´t know how tough it is.
Don´t criticize McDonald´s – you´ve never run a fast food restaurant, you don´t know how tough it is.
Don´t criticize Eli Manning – you´ve never been a NFL QB, you don´t know how tough it is. (Ain´t it, George? ;o))
Could go on forever with this…
There GM goes again, writing checks with his mouth that his masturbators can’t cash.
He needed to finish Winds before the show made a number of the plotlines superfluous. He didn’t. So here we are. It will still be fun to read the first time.
Cumsprite,
“George R.R. Martin assures ‘Winds’ is coming”
————–
Didn’t someone once write: “Words are wind”?
I generally say the same after two bowls of chili con carne…
Best kind of check there is…
kevin1989,
Good points.
Cumsprite,
Did he give a specific date in this quote? No.
In other words just more useless one liners attempting to reinforce how cool and non conformist you are vs the people who are willing to wait for an author to finish a book they haven’t paid for yet on his own timeline and in the meantime discuss the works written and paid for up until this point.
Armsbendback,
You forgot to say “George is not your bitch,” but solid post. I give it 6 out of 10 on the buttkiss-o-meter. Interesting tidbit: Neil Gaiman wrote that in a blog post where he began with a bunch of words complaining about the power adapters on a first-class flight, blew a gasket that the airline had the temerity to ask him to pony up some dough for the proper equipment (just as they would do to us peasants), and vowed to never fly that airline again. Only then did he launch into a finger-wagging about the entitlement of readers.
See, not every reader thinks that characters ‘just traveling’ means that nothing is happening. Much of what is happening is internal. It’s character development. I don’t expect big action scenes in every chapter. I expect to get to know people and places and cultures better.
I love Brienne’s journey because without her point of view, ASoIaF is just another medieval adventure story about the aristocracy. She takes us to where the smallfolk live and suffer and endure. They matter to me, and they matter to the author, which makes his story much more profound and meaningful. I am fascinated with Tyrion’s riverboat journey and especially the Griffs’ entourage, with all their mysterious personages, each of whom seems to have something to hide.
If anything, the chapters in the last book that I find most tedious are the ones spent on Dany – one of the original PoV characters. I don’t find her very sympathetic anymore, and the things she obsesses over just seem to me to be the concerns of very privileged and entitled people. Give me more time to spend with the commoners Brienne encounters any day.
And no, none of this makes me a masochist. That’s a cheap shot and pretty insulting. For many readers, it is not an ordeal by any means to experience GRRM’s world in ever greater depth. It is a pleasure and a delight. If you really believe that it’s ‘fine’ for people who enjoyed the last two books to have different tastes from you, then kindly prove it by cutting out the snark and the hostility from your comments.
I find this kind of comment SUPER-offensive. Any person who likes the work of a particular author better than you do, who doesn’t have the same objections to it that you do, is a ‘masturbator’ of that author? Really?
I am continually astonished that the moderators (presumably) don’t give you warnings for virulently hostile statements like this. I wonder what kind of Teflon you have with them.
Firannion,
You misunderstand. “Masturbators” as in his hands — those things he is rumored to write with. Now that I have had to explain the joke I am shamed and must commit seppoopoo.
Dame of Mercia,
I’m sorry to hear you had a run in with the conspiracy theorists. It’s rare that anything good comes out of it in my opinion, since I debated a flatearther a while ago and I came out more mad than ever. Well, depends I suppose. I had some pleasant experiences with the ASOIAF conspiracy theorists online (not on YouTube though), but since it’s not about anything real it was easy and funny to debate those things.
I wish I kept the receipt of how many times during the years you have complained of Dorne being a problem…
Don’t tell me. You found it super boring that Jon was counting the storaged food. He didn’t btw, he was just inspecting as a good LC does actually. I think he developed some pretty good skills to help him out in leading people, negotiating with IB, making unpopular decisions for the greater good, and negotiating with the wildlings as well. Set up for him getting himself a stab and moving on no doubt but it was some beautiful writing. One of my favorites storylines from Dance. I must have read those Jon chapters 10- 15 times and in my opinion Jon is definitely not waiting for his story to develop. He’s making it happen which is why he’s dead right now.
Cumsprite,
Lol You must. One never explains the jokes, don’t you know. I think the target audience for your joke is two forums to the right! (I found it funny, which probably makes me just as wicked as you. You’re terrible.) Also: it’s not rumoured. He writes. He wrote F&B too, maybe give it a shot and then you can bitch about that!
‘Tis the holiday season. I’m surprised nobody has said yet: “Hoping this Christmas Eve the jolly fat man comes down my chimney with the present I’ve been wishing for… If not him, then Santa Clause.”
Seriously feel for George. It must seem surreal to have a set of books that you never thought would be put on the big screen in anyway similar to the breadth he wrote them, and HBO does it. And the show not only becomes popular and critically acclaimed, it then bypasses not only your fame but your own writing of the story. And to put salt in the wounds, the showrunners who did this basically acknowledged that the last two books were NOT that good and threw out most of what was written in them, and decided to end the show now eventhough HBO is pleading for more seasons. Why? Cause they do not think there is enough there to go on and keep it at a high level. Truly the irony is unreal.
Firannion,
You can like the last two books, but creative decisions that GRRM made there made it reasonable to expect that he will never finish the story. He lost control and passion. So 13 Tyrion’s filler chapters are one of the reasons it will be very hard for him to close the story in 7 books.
TormundsWoman,
Well at least I didn’t mix with the conspiracy theorists in real life. The flat earthers don’t really hurt anybody in their flat earth though they can be insufferably rude. I typed something (under an alias – well I do that here) where somebody was saying that British glamour model Katie Price was a secret transgender. I said politely – well be careful or you might get sued.* One of his fans accused me of being Katie Price! I replied that she was younger than me and had a bigger bust!
* Of course with legal fees being the way they are and maybe the YouTuber not being a multi-millionaire it might not be worth the trouble of suing him. I try and keep away from the whacky side of YouTube now though I still get recommendations for it thanks to the YT logarithm. Oddly enough I happened on these loony videos (which I have mentioned briefly before) when watching GoT reaction videos while I was convalescing and I clicked on one and it was some bloke asserting that Kit Harington had been born a woman – this bloke seemed to think any famous bloke was really a female and any famous woman was really male. But it could be that the YouTuber knew very well he was spouting rubbish but knew there would be an audience for what he said. But I found it impossible to have an online debate with such people. Incidentally – thinking about autocorrect – in my earlier post it had changed “sheeple” to “steeple”. I’m not saying that now and again a conspiracy theory could have some validity but most of them are hot air. I sometimes watch a YouTube channel called “The Spoof Movement” which takes the P out of the “truthers”.
TW, it’s quite true that some of the theories for the endgame of GoT/ASOIAF can be fun as long as people keep the discussion civil. Of course, the length of time it takes for a volume in the saga of ASOIAF to be printed has caused much speculation about what will happen*. I’m keeping off the theories now though because I don’t want to be spoiled about season 8 – after all a lot of fans did guess who Jon’s mother was. I go for harmless things like potential casting of the characters who have been cut now. I will say I think the YMBQ will be a Stark sister – I was convinced it would be Sansa for a long time but now I think it could possibly be Arya, though I am not certain.
*I’m not mentioning the length here to have a pop at GRRM.
Firannion,
Character development is very important, but there is a way to have character development without sacrificing the plot, as Martin showed beautifully in his first 3 books. And we already were taken to where the smallfolk live via Arya’s chapters in Clash and Storm. Brienne’s Feast chapters didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know.
No, TWOW will not come — stop fooling yourself and your readers. Even if it does come out, by some miracle, we know with 100% certainty that the last book will never come out from your hand. Stop creating fake hype, and start working on the Fire and Blood 2, so that at least we will have an end to that.
Well I said above that I didn’t intend to bash GRRM for his writing speed. But I’ve been watching (with a slight time delay) the Sky News (on YouTube) coverage of Teresa May addressing Parliament (UK Parliament). TM made mention of “the Inconstant Gardner” – I know the work she was alluding to meant “inconstant” in the sense of unfaithful but for some reason it made me think of Mr Martin and his “gardening” approach to writing. That was just my instinctive thoughts so I hope I won’t be accused of jumping figuratively on Mr Martin from a great height. And before anyone says anything no I haven’t written a saga of best selling novels.
BeardedOnion,
SO wait, was that a yes about reading F&B first? I don’t know mean it from a spoilery perspective, because at this point ASOIAF, when I read it, would be more for enjoyment purposes rather than any element of surprise.
But from a making sense perspective, will F&B make sense to read as a standalone before reading ASOIAF
And thank you all for the responses
Dee Stark,
I’ve read all the books and I’ve also bought Fire and Blood. You can read F&B first, it’s different enough from the rest of the books. Did you read Dunk & Egg? I preferred that over F&B. It’s a bit like Arya and the hound going on an adventure. And I don’t think it really spoils things from the main series.
Lol that’s hilarious!
Chilli,
Oh, good recommendation! Dunk & Egg are fun and short enough and easy enough not to dump all that info on someone who’s not familiar with the books. I think eventually it depends on Dee and her reading preference.
Dee Stark,
I don’t know enough about your reading habits to recommend F&B, but it really depends if you like historical accounts well enough to enjoy such a dump of information and style of narrative.
Technically it would be a lot like reading Herodotus’ “Histories”. I made that comparison some years ago when reading TWOIAF not only because it’s from an unreliable narrator(s) perspective but also because the style of these books is a lot like it too. Think of it this way: reading the ASOIAF books would be reading historical fiction, reading F&B or TWOIAF is reading the historical nonfiction books of a fictitious world (hope that’s not too confusing)
Chilli,
I have that as well. those are the two books I plan to read after I finish my current selection of books!
this helps a lot, thank you!
Ill save ASOIAF for when I have GOT withdrawals after the series finale
Thinking of tinfoil with GoT the show, I can say this now without it being a spoiler but I had hoped that “Bad Pussy”* had passed the antidote to the poison to Bronn so Myrcella would be saved – well I must have had a hat of very substandard tinfoil that day!!!
* As someone who can see good (and sometimes bad) in both the book and show versions of the story I can’t in all honesty see that “bad pussy” is any worse than “the more she drank the more she sh*t” (I don’t think that’s a spoiler).
I got smart and now posting this in bits and with no links! It’s me against the spamkiller (which does a pretty nifty job I should think)
Chilli,
good recommendation! Dunk & Egg are fun and short enough and easy enough not to dump all that info on someone who’s not familiar with the books. I think eventually it depends on Dee and her reading preference.
Dee Stark,
I don’t know enough about your reading habits to recommend F&B, but it really depends if you like historical accounts well enough to enjoy such a dump of information and style of narrative.
Technically it would be a lot like reading Herodotus’ “Histories”. I made that comparison some years ago when reading TWOIAF not only because it’s from an unreliable narrator(s) perspective but also because the style of these books is a lot like it too. Think of it this way: reading the ASOIAF books would be reading historical fiction, reading F&B or TWOIAF is reading the historical nonfiction books of a fictitious world (hope that’s not too confusing)
Dame,
That’s hilarious! People need to lighten up.
………………..
Haven’t you heard? He’s already moved on to writing Volume 1 of a recipe book, “Hot Pie’s Hundred Dishes to Die For.”
You can take comfort in his assurance that after the first fifty recipes are published, he will issue Fire & Blood Volume II. “It won’t be tomorrow, it won’t be next week, but you will get the end of Fire and Blood.”
Someone did.
Someone also wrote this: “Words are wind, but a strong wind can topple mighty oaks and the whispering of pretty girls can change the destiny of kingdoms”. (And so the Sea-Snake was pardoned by the young new king and lived to see another day.)
So you see, Winds are strong with him.
Chilli,
“Did you read Dunk & Egg? I preferred that over F&B. It’s a bit like Arya and the hound going on an adventure.”
……………….
Which is why I’ve thought it’s a no-brainer that the next GoT-related project should be a Saturday morning children’s cartoon, “The Adventures of Arya & The Hound.” $5 million each to Rory McCann and Maisie Williams for the voice-overs. Instant hit. The only challenge: Finding synonyms for the expletives in Sandor’s vocabulary.
Ten Bears,
Would be a very good idea, but maybe better for adults. That way we can keep the Meryn F****** Trant and the Brienne of f****** Tarth. And Every lord I’ve ever met’s been a c***. Don’t see why the Lord of Light should be any different
Reminds me of Battlestar Galactica (’04) using a form of “frak” about fifteen times per episode.
—————
I did buy Fire & Blood about ten days ago and have yet to read a page. I bought A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms when it released as well and haven’t gotten far into it either. I have the interest to read them but I just can’t get myself to jump on ’em like ASoIaF. Even if AFfC and ADwD were arguably not as good as the first three I still burned through them both within days of release.
Nobody talks about Cregan Stark 😔I am so pumped, I feel like I’m going to die if I don’t mention him everywhere on the asoiaf sites where I’m participating. I mean, dudes, can we TALK about him?!
[quote]Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.”[/quote]
I really like the idea of Dunk & Egg as a ‘way in’ for ASoIaF book newbies. As you say, they’re not spoilery, because they take place about 90 years prior to AGoT. And they’re a bit lighter in tone, though they do introduce darker elements and raise awareness that there is a much bigger political picture waiting in the background. It’s comparable to reading The Hobbit before taking on LotR, with Bloodraven’s attempted coup in the third novella being similar to the foreshadowing that Bilbo’s magic ring may be much more than a handy tool for burglars.
I’ve said it before and will say it again: Dunk & Egg seems tailor-made for a family-friendly spinoff TV series that would draw a new generation of fans into the GoT universe. When I was a kid in the early days of television, there were a lot of family adventure shows with medieval settings. They usually featured known characters like Robin Hood or King Arthur or Ivanhoe, but tended not to have much of a narrative through-line. Rather, they were structured more like road-buddy stories. You could jump in at any episode and jump out again. Dunk & Egg could easily work that way, partially based on GRRM’s canon but also leaving room for a good screenwriting crew to put the same characters into new weekly scrapes in their wanderings around Westeros.
You’d think that HBO would love the flexibility that such a series would offer. It could be renewed year after year as long as audience interest didn’t wane, until the Egg actor aged out of the role. Or maybe he could just grow up into his unlikely kingship! Wouldn’t it be fun to meet Maester Aemon as a young man?
TormundsWoman,
Hi! thank you 🙂
I understand exactly what you mean..
I read a lot of historical fiction.
And I have also read a lot of books about Mythology which kind of has mini stories and “historical” narratives. it depends how they are written.
Dee STark,
Ooh, a special flair on your name today… Dee STark?
Apologies for pointing out an oops. 😛
Right now fans are waiting on….
– Fire & Blood 2
– 9 More Novellas from Dunk & Egg
– The Winds of Winter
– A Dream of Spring
All of this from a 70 year old man. Plus he realistically needs to help out on the basic structure of The Long Night. And various other random projects.
I just don’t see how even half of this gets done. I do think he will release The Winds of Winter in 2019 though….
I think HBO was very much interested in a Dunk & Egg show (just based off of how well received Arya & the Hounds adventures were). But I think GRRM wouldn’t give them clearance. No way he was gonna let HBO take another one of his creations (that he was still working on & had a passion for) & pass him up. Now once he gets a few more D&E Novellas out (I’d say 5 total) he may let them green light a show if they promise to do 1 season per Novella. And boy would they be excellent. I’d be all in for those. Honestly, more excited than I am for The Long Night (unless the Daynes & Dawn are a BIG part of the show).
Well who knows what he means by other projects…
We know Nightflyers just kicked off and that Wild Cards is being developed at Hulu so maybe we will get more Wild Card news.
We also know we should have a lot more ‘Long Night’ casting news before too long and I’m sure one of the other SoI&F projects will get picked up at HBO too, eventually.
It would be great if he was referring to A Dream of Spring or some other SoIaF tie-in material. There is suppose to be a part two to Fire & Blood, no? But I actually really was looking forward to The Shewolves of Winterfell novella and hope we get more Dunk and the Egg.
Firannion,
I agree with your comparison of DaE and the Hobbit, as they relate to the more expansive stories contained in their relative series’s that take place later on… spot on. One minor correction… Was it Bloodraven’s attempted coup? I think not. 🙂
Dee STark,
I can’t speak yet for FaB, but Dunk and Egg were great, and won’t spoil anything. You could probably bang the novellas out in an afternoon.
Guess I need to go back for a reread, then – I’ve only read D&E once! I’m certain that Bloodraven does some sort of troublemaking, though.
Spoiler alert for those who haven’t read Dunk and Egg:
Bloodraven, loyal bastard he was, exacted some justice.
(If I remember correctly- it has also been awhile for me. I will be slightly embarrased and humbly ask your forgiveness if I am wrong)
He’s a really classy dude. With all the complaints from ungrateful fans, he kept quiet on the fact that it would be counterproductive to all concerned to have Winds released in the middle of show that had already branched in another direction.
It was fun for show-only fans to not know what was coming. We all had the suspense of not knowing together what the next season held. Even with the less then stellar plot lines in the scripts, it was always better to wait on Winds and let D&D do their thing. GRRM’s new confident language on the timeline confirms for me that it’s been close to done for a long time anyway. Maybe D&D themselves couldn’t wait any longer to read Winds and that played into their decisions for hurrying through to the finale!
No matter, finishing the show before releasing anymore material mid-show, was always the right choice. And even better, he busied himself setting up the next show story lines with this latest book release!
As I see it, it’s all quite strategic, just like his narratives always are. And regardless of noisy, complaining fans who don’t understand the kadundry of releasing the book in the middle of the show’s run.
I noticed that many are complaining about 20 POV characters, you must bare in mind GRRM is a historian, and therefore has acquired knowledge on subjects by reading varied accounts by many different sources. He has approached this series the same way, like a maester compiling stories from many people’s viewpoints on the subject matter and writing a history concerning this time period and it’s events.
Olli,
Olli, I have just looked online for the meaning of “kadundry” and the internet has not been my friend…..
That wasn’t what I came to comment about though. This is off-topic but on a history site I sometimes visit I had mentioned being disappointed that in the 1967 film of Far From the Madding Crowda blonde, blue-eyed Bathsheba* had been cast whereas her book counterpart is a raven-haired, brown-eyed beauty. Somebody else had said well they had studied FFTMC at school and didn’t think Bathsheba’s hair colour was important to driving the plot. It was probably because I used to be dark-haired myself (brown not black though) before I went grey. Another commenter made a comment about Broken Arrow (the film version with James Stewart). Apparently Debra Paget who was playing a native American character wore brown contact lenses and once during filming one of the lenses fell out! I’m mentioning that because some people in the fandom bewailed the fact that Khaleesi and her Viserys didn’t wear purple contacts. I did read that the show runners tried but EC found them irritating. There was also something in one of the commentary shows that said they had tried to have the little people jousting on pigs but it hadn’t worked out.
* The actress was Julie Christie who was actually a very good actress. As far as I know she is still living but doesn’t act anymore. But I still wish she had worn a wig. One plus of being someone who went to the ASOIAF novels because of the influence of the show was that I didn’t have any preconceived ideas of how the characters should look. Richard Madden isn’t like Book Robb and Kit Harington isn’t entirely like Book Jon (though probably more like Book Jon that RM is like Book Robb) but that never bothered me. But then I’m the one person in the fandom likes EC’s acting as Khaleesi.
Not the only! xD She may not be one of the overall better actresses on the show, but I quite like (often love) her portrayal of Daenerys…
Clob,
Hahahahahahahaha
I love that you noticed that!! Haha
Sister Kisser,
I look forward to reading them
Olli,
So let me get this straight. First, you call upset fans ungrateful, then you suggest that Martin has purposely withheld a book that his fans have been waiting 7 years to read in order to service GOT fans who haven’t read the books. I don’t believe for a second this is true, but if it is, people have a right to be pissed. You must not have a lot of faith in Martin’s artistic integrity. Besides, your reasoning doesn’t make any sense.
Agreed. Posting about how “horny” he gets watching audition tapes, giving readers the literal middle finger and declaring Rowling stole his Hugo while grousing about how she is not “of the genre” shows our man is classy as fuck.
Olli,
You clearly don’t believe in his integrity, since you are accusing him of screwing over his fanbase. I am enjoying the show very much, but I’ve always preferred the written medium. I’m frustrated that Martin has allowed the show to spoil his books, and refuse to believe that he’s doing this on purpose.
I disagree that he doesn’t owe us completion. Martin chose to market his books as a series, so when I bought the first 5, I did so with the understanding that I was merely buying a piece to a larger whole. Without a proper ending, those books are now basically worthless, like a puzzle that’s missing a few pieces. Legally, he doesn’t owe us anything, but ethically, he most certainly does.
Olli,
You clearly don’t believe in his integrity, since you are accusing him of screwing over his fanbase. I am enjoying the show very much, but I’ve always preferred the written medium. I’m frustrated that Martin has allowed the show to spoil his books, and refuse to believe that he’s doing this on purpose.
I disagree that he doesn’t owe us completion. Martin chose to market his books as a series, so when I bought the first 5, I did so with the understanding that I was merely buying a piece to a larger whole. Without a proper ending, those books are now basically worthless, like a puzzle that’s missing a few pieces. Legally, he doesn’t owe us anything, but ethically, he most certainly does.
Young Dragon:
OMGGGGG! Clearly, you don’t see any of this very clearly!
If you are so screwed over, why don’t you file a lawsuit for your pain and suffering? Because you are crying a river.
Olli,
Way to keep it classy. It’s strange that you accuse me of not seeing things clearly when you obviously didn’t read my post very well. I said that he doesn’t legally owe us anything, so filing a lawsuit won’t help. And I’m just stating facts. You are the one who seems to have a problem and is whining about it.
Olli,
No he’s not. What is the issue here? The man himself said:
You either trust him to keep to his words (I do!) that he’ll give it to us (unless physically impaired or mentally unwell – both circumstances he has no control over) or you don’t.
What is this thing about “it’s ok if he doesn’t do it because it’s his life and I don’t expect anything from him, but I trust his integrity that he’ll do it” shit? ! Is this a new thing? It’s NOT ok if he doesn’t do it or withholds it. It means he’s failed his words. Nobody wants that! We should all be fucking rooting for him not showing him compassion for future failing before he even fails. We can show that shit afterwards all we want.
Man, in my day if one said she’ll do something, others expected her to do something or die trying (figuratively speaking). A human’s word was her bond or nobody would trust you anymore. No wonder this place is going to the dogs. Seven Almighty what a time to be alive. I blame it all on Trump.
Cumsprite,
Why you always bring that up?! He’s a human being he has less stellar moments just like anyone else. And pay attention, don’t fall asleep.
TormundsWoman,
I didn’t bring “that” up. I brought “those” up to support my opinion of Martin’s level of classiness. By “that” I know you zeroed in on the Rowling thing. It eats at you. It CONSUMES you. Boysenberry, it’s OK to like a thing but have a low opinion of the creator (unless it’s Ayn Rand). And I could have brought up more thoses. Like the time he giggled at novice hikers dying of thirst in the New Mexico wilds in an interview with Der Spiegel. Been at this a long time and I read stuff and things.
I find this line of reasoning incredibly bizarre. Worthless? Did you not experience many hours of reading pleasure with each of the books that you have already purchased? Are you trying to argue that all that enjoyment somehow can go ‘Poof!’ and retroactively cease ever to have been if the last two books don’t come out? Like Schrödinger’s Cat in a time machine?
We’ve all gotten what we’ve paid for so far. When Winds comes out, we will then pay a little more, and enjoy that installment. Unless you allow the uncertainty about a completion date (if any) for Dream to spoil your enjoyment.
Oh ffs. If some people feel like Martin owes them nothing then fine. If some other people feel like Martin owes them an ending to something he started then fine.
No one is right or wrong here. There’s no use in getting into an argument about it.
Personally, if I was in GRRM’s shoes, I would feel a responsibility to finish what I started, but that’s just me. No one has to share my opinion and I really don’t care if anyone does.
Mr Derp,
Thank you for your attempt to de-escalate this fucking tired argument that goes on and on here. Fans pitted against fans, in a fruitless and inconsequential argument, wherein everyone is entitled to an opinion (doesn’t mean all opinions make any sense to me- but I have learned over the years, that’s not for me to judge)
I would find it VERY hard to believe that GRRM doesn’t feel obligated to finish this series. I’m sure he applies internal pressure to himself (despite what anyone judges of him based off his decisions to devote energy to other projects). I am very willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I think Olli may be on to something here- It seems possible, at some point along the way, the choice between rushing a work he did not feel was finished, and postponing finishing/releasing that work until after the show completes the story, became very clear. If he had released winds a year or two ago, I can only imagine the global show-watcher response he would receive, after having spoiled substantial parts of the endgame. I imagine the show watcher audience at this point is MUCH larger than the book audience- and the money involved with HBO’s production reflecting that- I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some type of contractual obligation for him not to spoil the show. Look at how they have handled secrecy with the cast and crew.
I am hopeful that winds is just around the corner, not far behind the show. Maybe next holiday season? Of course, I was here back in 2012/13 encouraging people to chill the fuck out and let the man finish. Yes, I was, and to some degree still am, in the “he is not your bitch” camp. Doesn’t help that I’m a huge fan of the work of Neil Gaiman…
Firannion,
Without an ending, the storylines in those books all become completely worthless. What’s the point behind Jon’s stabbing? There isn’t one. What’s the point behind Arya’s training arc in Braavos? There isn’t one. What’s the point behind Catelyn’s resurrection? There isn’t one. What’s the point behind Danerys running into the khalasar? There isn’t one. I could go on and on and on. An ending gives the story meaning. After all, a story without an ending isn’t a story, just a collection of random events with no clear purpose. Martin not finishing would be like a television show being canceled, except I’ve never spent more than $100 on a single television show.
Sister Kisser,
Martin does feel obligated to finish– he has said as much and this is a point in his favor. Feeling an obligation to do something and actually doing it are two different things though. We are not entitled to a book, but I believe we are entitled to a good-faith effort on the part of Martin to finish it. Show of hands from the good people who think he is putting in the time. Crickets? Yeah, thought so.
Oh put a sock in it! Crickets my ass. You know I always believe he’s doing it and I’m sure I’m not alone. I mean I am not blind and obviously he’s got too much other stuff he’s juggling but there was never a doubt that he’s writing it. Just because he’s not updating the way he used to do with Feast or Dance doesn’t mean he is not working on it.
Cumsprite,
I don’t think low of him. It would be a double standard, you know. I also would be a bad loser if someone gets a reward they don’t even want while I worked my ass off. And besides, we have talked about this ad nauseam: he probably realized how he sounded. He definitely praised her time and again for her work and the contribution to the fantasy genre so you can’t hold that against him.
It is totally unfair and I think it’s super mean for you to forever mention it every time there’s a complaint to be made about him.
I also give the finger sometimes when I’m super pissed (rarely though) and generally laugh at morons who don’t do their homework and get into a predicament before they embark on a project, though I don’t wish them bad. Basically, I’m a flawed human. Just like him.
EDIT: it doesn’t mean my opinion of myself is high either. I realized when I read for typos that it may read that way which you’d totally capitalize on, bc: you.
TormundsWoman,
Not too long ago Martin had Stephen King as a guest at the Cocteau to answer questions. King revealed that he writes a page or two every day, maybe not on something that his editors expected, but something. Martin was incredulous. As though this required some Herculean effort. A burden. My writing credentials are thin. Taken a few classes through the college level. Edited the college paper. Minor stuff. The writer’s life was not for me. A common refrain from my instructors was to write every day. A page or two. Martin treats writing as a hobby and building his brand his profession. It’s been almost eight years — he is not putting in the time or effort to write ASOIAF.
Cumsprite,
You know, it´s kinda funny. I actually believe he has a truckload of pages of tWoW written, but he doesn´t know what to do with them. Or better, he doesn´t know how to retcon them so he can make that ugly little truth go away: The books are the show and the show is the books. Back in the day George sold the crown jewels to HBO and they are doing the CliffsNotes version of all the juicy parts now. Remember the tepid reactions to *Hold the door*? That´s what gives George the nightmares nowadays. Retconning something that cannot be salvaged anymore, at least not from that perspective.
Well, George, just wrap the damn thing up and f*ck the reactions. By now, your fandom has prestonjacobized the books to death; unless you beam down Mr. Spock to take care of the Night King himself, not a chance of a surprise factor at all.
Gotta feel sorry for Geor-…OOOOPS, another truck of moollah rolling in. Feelings canceled.
Cumsprite,
Although, I suspect we may be outnumbered here… you gotta give us time, dude! I’ll raise my hand. I’m sure he thinks about it all the time (and indeed has put a lot of work in) That’s also partly why I cut him some slack, because the pressure must be at a boiling point (which can’t be good for his health).
As an artist, and as a recording engineer working with other artists, I see all the time what it takes for people to bring their dreams into this reality. Of course, it takes talent and dedication to the craft. It takes investment in both time and money, and inspiration, which is not always at hand. And, speaking for myself, this is just for the sake of the creation itself! I don’t have anyone other than a relatively small network of family/friends/fellow musicians that give a shit about what I do. I imagine FnB was good to get off his chest, and as someone here said recently, was likely an easier, more refreshing break, from trying to draw together the clusterfuck of characters and stories involved in ASOIAF. Maybe even a stop-gap to fill this last year while he lets the show finish (I am increasingly thinking that at some point, it was decided, if for HBO’s business interests alone, he would not spoil the ending of the show with the release of his book- even if it is just the broad strokes to his ultra-fine detail)
Interesting you brought up the concept of writing a page a day. I tried the “notevember challenge”- writing and recording a new piece of musik every day last month. FRAK. It was tough. I was doing well using my old drum machine to give me something to write to, until I fucked up my neck doing R’hollr knows what, and missed about a week. In the end, I got about 25 new ideas down, some more developed/arranged than others (some pretty much crap)… but now I have a ton of material to work through for some sessions with a rhythm section booked at the end of the year.
Give it time my brother. He’ll get there, and hopefully it will all have been worth the wait. Also, you are a good writer. You should find a way to make it a hobby that is worthwhile to you. You never know what reality you may end up creating…
flintstonewielder,
I agree with you- this must be a massively difficult situation to be in. That stress must suuuuuuuck for creativity. Ultimately, I think he will find ways to wrap the story cohesively, staying parallel where he must, and divert from the show where necessary.
I don’t hold it against anyone for making money off their art (as long as they don’t become a total dueche as a result) For me, it’s inspiring to think he could create a massively comfortable and cool reality for he and his wife, based solely off the ideas he’s transferred from his head to a page. It’s not like he’s profiting privately from holding the highest office in America….
Off topic but I love the Kit Harington/Toothless ‘outtakes’:
Given there is no new Game of Thrones this year (the first time in five years my Wife hasn’t bought me the box set as a Xmas gift) I’ve asked her to give me the World of Ice and FIre instead to build up to the final season in four months. It’s still weird to think though that the last book came out around the same time of S1 of the show, we may now finally get the next one just after the show ends the story visually for GRRM. Anyone remember when GRRM and his publishers were trying to get Winds out before S6 and they were hopeful? Once that didn’t happen my interest for the book declined but I will still purchase it eager to find out how close S6 was to Winds (I’m expecting it to be fairly close at least to the main plot points).
I’ll say this: Anytime GRRM mentions “The Winds of Winter” it riles up the fan base, pro and con.
Question and comment for book readers (I’m not one):
(1) I read the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter, only because GRRM posted it on his blog. I really liked it. But how long ago did he actually write it?
(2) I’ve heard and read about GRRM’s “gardener’s” approach to writing. At this point, I wonder if his garden is overgrown with weeds and it looks to him like a daunting task to clean it up and tend to it again. When I used to have to write long term papers and didn’t see any way I could fit everything in and still get them done on time, I’d sketch out a 5-6 page outline, tape it to the wall, and slog through it subtopic by subtopic. Sure, they didn’t turn out as “organic” as I wanted, and I wish I’d had the time to make them better, but they got done. Having that master outline on the wall – sometimes with a word count assigned to each topic – helped focus in on each section and keep it tight.
Now I don’t presume to be a bestselling author like GRRM. It’s just that after 7-8 years (?), perhaps he might want to try a different method. I figure he’s either written too much and can’t trim it down; keeps re-writing sections; or hadn’t written much at all.
Yes, I know, GRRM is not our “bitch.” It’s just that maybe he ought to (a) throw in the towel and say he just can’t write ASOIAF anymore because he’s no longer excited by it after 1/4 century; (b) refrain from extending deadlines and promising the next book is on its way; or (c) hunker down and try a different approach.
I’d really like to start reading the books. The consensus seems to be that the first three are great; and those that followed are either meandering and bloated, or enjoyable “world-building.” I’m just reluctant to start without knowing if I’ll be left hanging…
Ten Bears,
The fact that GRRM even announced that he was trying to finish Winds before the big season 6 reveal of Jon’s resurrection, tells me that he was close and had a lot of the book done. Or why even push so hard if he truly had no chance of making it. I think he was caught by surprise that D&D chose to skip over so much book material.
Now we’re approaching nearly 3 years since then. If he indeed was “close” to finishing Winds then, there’s no way he’s not done by now. I just think HBO made him an offer he couldn’t refuse if he just held Winds until the show ended.
I believe book readers will end up very pleased in the end because I believe it will be very different from what we got in season 6 & 7 in the show. Hell he may have even made some drastic changes as a reward for book reader’s patience.
Ten, I think you should wait until after the show ends & for Winds to drop and then binge the entire series. I wouldn’t start until Winds is released though. The cliffhangers at the end of it have made for an excruciating wait. Especially with the show giving us their answers to those cliffhangers. I expect the book answers will be very different. I personally hope GRRM changes them all.
Suppose I’ll start the books after the series ends too.
Never liked mixing up the images and messages from movie content and its book, so would not read the books in the middle of the series. But once it ends, I’ll be craving more GOT, and expect the depth of book content and different outcomes will be much more enjoyable.
Same with Outlander. I am stuck in the middle of reading the books and for that reason won’t watch the TV show. I even avoid seeing images of the actors, so they don’t interfere with my own mental perception of what they are. Eventually I’ll go back to the books and finish them. By then, the show will likely have completed its run and I can just binge the whole thing in that medium.
It makes sense GRRM was asked to hold off on Winds and that he’s close to done. If he died before its release, I think the pages would be there to print posthumous. Just a guess, but it’s his landmark work and he getting long in the tooth.
GRRM wrote so much material for his last book that several chapters were moved to Winds of Winter so it may be as long as eight years ago. We do know that GRRM has shared this material with D&D before posting it to his blog and that it was loosely covered in S6 of the show. As I mentioned above GRRM and his editors were hopeful of getting WInds out before S6 so it’s quite probably a lot was already written 2-3 years ago but probably required a lot of revision and editing. Most likely (this is only popular speculation) George lost a lot of drive when S6 aired and gave away a lot of the big plot points of Winds, such as R+L=J, Hodr origin and death, Jon becoming king in the North, and many others.
I disagree with you here in that I don’t expect to majorly differ from S6 of the show. It’s fairly clear GRRM shared materials and plot points with D&as in advance. Yes there will small deviations and some of the details will change but nothing large. As for S7 I agree with far more almost certainly the show was going on a rough outline from GRRM and it really showed.
Pigeon,
That clip WAS funny, Pigeon. Of course one never knows what a person is like in real life if one hasn’t met him/her (and more than once) but Kit Harington doesn’t seem like he’s got* “up himself” since becoming known – though there was a footballer a few years ago who made it known that KH and RL had turned him down for autographs (but then a lot of football fans reported that the same footballer had declined to give them autographs).
As I say about any new ASOIAF I’m staying on the fence. It would be nice if the book does get published relatively soon, especially for that part of the fandom which has loyally taken Mr Martin’s part when the wait has exasperated another part of the fandom. That way if it DOES get published relatively soon it will be a nice surprise; I just don’t want to set myself up for disappointment if it doesn’t happen thus – though as I’ve said before other than the Arya chapter I wasn’t all that keen on the preview chapters I’ve seen online of TWoW.
* Being from the UK I use “got” rather than “gotten” – though I have found some British people (usually younger than me using “gotten” more recently).
Ten Bears,
GRRM’s approach to writing reminds me of my real life garden – the weeds are winning. If it was a football match it would be Weeds 10 – Dame 0.
The first season of the show is an amazingly close adaptation of the book, you won’t have any issues with divergence. Seasons 2-3 are also very close with only some minor trimming of book fat. You will see some creative deviation in S4 but nothing substantial.
I can’t say I hated the fourth and fifth books myself but I doubt I’d enjoy reading them a second time. They were noticeably lower quality than the first three and just seemed to focus on world building. The show did well to cover two very big books in one season, covering all the major events and cutting a lot of the fat.
Hi Dee, my understanding is you can read Fire and Blood before ASOIF it’s more just a history lesson of the Targs with little impact to the main story.
Well, you know the old saying!
Fool me once?
Shame on you!
Fool me twice?
Shame on me!
Fool me over and over and over?
I must be a fan!
They were extremely unfocused, and read like works that had been written on-and-off over a long period of time. (It also read like something that had been written by multiple people with different ideas about what the story was: but, then, that’s exactly what happens when one person writes one thing over years rather than over months.)
I, too, have not re-read either. I’ll probably read Winter: but if it does not come out soon, then I’ll probably not even learn about it until long after it is out: I certainly would never have heard about Dragons had it not been for the show!
But it wasn’t part of the story. Not a single protagonist was present, and it’s not going to have any effect on how any of the protagonists will act at the climax of the story. It was filler.
If I recall properly, all it did was make Asha/Yara look like an idiot. How many people told her beforehand that the Iron Born would never accept a Queen? (I seem to recall at least three.) And then: she’s just shocked when no-one will accept her as Queen. O-Kay.
Ditto that for Dorne. None of the protagonists are there, and nothing that happens in those chapters is going to affect how they evolve. In other words, it was more filler that contributes nothing to the story: it’s just world-building plot.
I found the book Sand Snakes less vicious than the screen ones. Keisha Castle-Hughes had read the ASOIAF books so she probably thought she was going to play book Obara – whatever she thought she has maintained a dignified silence if she was disappointed. The book Iron Born I was less impressed with – at least Pilou Aesbek had a bit of fun playing Euron and thank you, thank you the two Ds for cutting down the number of ‘nuncles’. I like ASOIAF and I like GoT but neither of them are perfect but they have a gift of engaging the reader/viewer with the tale. I thought in ADWD the sex scene of Asha with her boyfriend was a crude – something in the vein of the “the more she drank, the more she sh*t” Dany episode.
I quite like reading the snark sometimes on “Iswintercoming” (website) and the “D&D Teen Fanclub” (twitter) and “Circlejerkoficeandfire” (Reddit) but that’s mostly for a bit of a laugh. I wouldn’t advise anyone who thinks Mr Martin can never, ever do any wrong visit those sites though.
Every fandom has a contingent of “fundamentalists” who define quality by what the book/show/films do.
Amusingly, every fandom also has a “good old days” contingent that points to some particular set of works as the “canon” and everything else is rubbish. However, half the time it’s for no good reasons other than: 1) nostalgia associated with what else was happening in that person’s life at that time; or, 2) waaaah! they didn’t follow my fan-fiction that clearly was where the show/books/films were headed!!!!!
Dame of Mercia,
Above I should just have said the Asha and boyfriend sex scene was “crude” and not “a crude”.
Wimsey,
I had a fan fiction in my head for Shireen to be rescued when the sacrifice came but of course it didn’t happen. (The sacrifice was hinted at before it happened – and there is some hinting in the books too even if it hasn’t happened yet). I just didn’t want it to happen.
I think I would prefer to read a real history book rather than Fire and Blood but it’s not for me to tell other people what they should read or shouldn’t read.
You’re overlooking the most basic and obvious definition of what constitutes canon: that it’s up to the author. Anything else is interpretation, which may or may not receive the author’s blessing, and may or may not be rubbish. One may accept this guideline without necessarily believing that the author ‘can do no wrong.’ Tortured conspiracy theories about what motivates fans seem like little more than projection to me.
“There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” – GWB
heh, that’s hardly “tortured conspiracy theory,” something of which I am about as prone to doing as time travel! After all, the fans themselves usually are very clear about what is motivating them: 9 times out of 10, it’s in their posts, or in the thread on which they posting. (My favorite anecdotal example is a LotR fan who criticized that the films did not give her the same feeling of relaxed contentment that reading the books while soaking in a hot tub and drinking red wine did, when, of course, red wine in a hot tub will induce relaxed contentment in anyone, sometimes dangerously so!)
But as for the “canon” being determined by the author or showrunners or producers, yes, that is obvious to you or to me. (I put it into quotes because Martin’s comments about how many children or husbands Scarlett O’Hare summarizes the veracity of the very notion of “canon” quite well!) However, we only have to look at the fandoms to see that there are big sections that do not agree: Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Harry Potter, Tolkien, etc., all have prominent examples of this. And we’ll see this among some SoI&F fans when/if Winter ever comes out: much as many HP fans insisted that Rowling “must have” changed what she was originally going to do (and thus ignored “her own canon”), there will be a lot of fans insisting that GRRM must have done the same.
Heck, we already saw the first example of this sort some years ago, when Martin did an early release of a Sansa chapter from Winter and more than one poster here insisted that you could see how Martin allowed Turner’s portrayal to change his view of Sansa: despite the fact that the chapter was a late cut from Dragons and thus written before the series even aired! (He obviously went back and rewrote it with Turner in mind: because nobody does speed rewriting like Martin, right?)
That would have been better only if he’d done it with a Venn Diagram!
Things were so much simpler then…. (which of course, is nuts)
I strongly encourage people to visit those sites and post often.
Because life is long and full of terror…. wait, that’s not how it goes.
Wimsey,
I wonder what role Euron will play in the books. And why it couldn’t be done by the already established characters? Is he going to kill/own a dragon? I could see Quiburn doing that too.
Chilli,
I’ve no idea: after all, he is barely in the books! Indeed, it occurs to me that I do not even remember where Euron is at the end of Dragons. Martin was using Euron’s halfwit brother as a POV character to show us the Iron Born fleet sailing to Meereen: but I don’t remember Euron being elsewhere in that fleet.
Of course, there was that crazy idea that Euron and Daario were the same person! The reasoning behind it was so nutso that I cannot even recall how it was supposed to work: it was 3 parts fan-fiction and 2 parts “Martin was lying to us.” So, perhaps the vagary in Euron’s whereabouts is part of the “proof” of his identity….
I don’t think Euron will differ that much in his overall arc from the show in that I see him teaming up with Cersei eventually. I do wonder if he’s the one to bring the wall down though and it’s him that inadvertantly gives a dragon to the army of the dead rather than Jon/Dany as that’s a change I think the show could make.
Spritey, if I didn’t know from your posts here what a model of rectitude you are I would think you were trying to stir things up…..
Dame of Mercia,
huh huh huh… You said rectitude….
Sorry, Dame. Had to 🙂
Ten Bears,
I’d also think you may want to wait to kick off your read until Winds release is officially announced. But I would say- go into it with an open mind. Lots of complaining around these parts about the content/delivery/scope of the 4th and 5th books. And I do understand where the criticism comes from- especially given so many years without resolution.
I quite enjoyed elements of the those books that many other fans either hold in contempt, ambivalence, or otherwise feel were unnecessary inclusions in an otherwise more cohesive story. Rather than merely “world building”, I found the Greyjoy chapters to be dark, tense, exciting… and indeed, they continue to build on the extensive and believable world that has been established. I think GRRM really wanted to write some stories about swashbuckling pirates, and I found them fun to read. The images of one religious fanatic of an uncle riding urgently across an island on horseback on the way to a kingsmoot, another dutiful, yet increasingly discerning warrior of an uncle jumping from one deck of the ship to another, slamming his weapon through some green noble kid’s armor, and yet another uncle, mad as a hurricane, who spent time in Asshai, cut the tongues out of his entire crew, and has a horn that imposes internal fatal burns on whomever blows it and may or may not be able take down a dragon- these images of crazy Ironborn leaders still stand out in my mind. The elements of Westeros that the Greyjoy lineage exemplifies has both historical and future stories to contribute.
Of course, if you want to examine those storylines strictly from a studious perspective- “do these plotlines have any direct significance for our main 5 or 6 protagonists? Are they even tertiary characters? What role do they play in the central themes ” Not knocking Wimsey here- of course I respect the world of academia, and can appreciate the methods involved when evaluating anything of it’s merit, purpose, or reliability. I can also appreciate his discernment. It’s just that, I approach my appreciation of art from an alternate perspective. I don’t care about standard forms or rules. I only care about whether or not I was pulled out of this reality for awhile, and into another, or whether I was inspired to consider this reality from a different perspective of my own (which doesn’t really apply to ASOIAF, but plenty of other art). Did it move me? Was I entertained?
I also liked much of the Dorne stuff- even Duechstar and his attempt to kill a Lannister child…. and as many have said above, Brienne’s travels were worthwhile for getting that inside perspective into the life of everyday westerosi- and of course, this is where we first meet Randyll Tarly.
All I’m sayin is- the internet is dark and full of terrors- approach the books with an open mind and you may find yourself pleasantly surprised.
Sister Kisser,
https://tenor.com/view/cyanide-and-happiness-clapping-sarcasm-explosmentertainment-king-gif-5216057
Sister Kisser,
I was just “having a larf” SK.
Dame of Mercia,
Oh yeah, me too :). Just takin the piss outta ya. I grew up in the age of Beavis and Butthead. But then again, maybe I never actually grew up?
Pigeon,
Wait, Pigeon… so, sarcastic clap? WITH cyanide?
Ha! No, I just love that little cartoon king character clapping his little stick hands….I agree with what you wrote. 🙂
Pigeon,
Right on 🙂 I was hoping that was the case. But with virtual emotion mechanisms, intention can be a little more opaque and open to interpretation. I saw the tags cyanide and sarcasm and then my brain went to JOFFREYS BLUE FACE.
My friends and I will #sarcasmfont to make sure the message is conveyed. I guess something like 80% of communication between humans is non-verbal?
Sister Kisser,
Cyanide & Happiness is the cartoon the character is from, and they can be pretty awful, if funny. I think that clip is from the ‘king’applauding something terrible, hence why they’d use the term sarcasm in the caption. But I just think it’s rather cute. Lol. It IS almost impossible to convey the emotion or tone through text itself. I normally will likely come off as a raging bitch, but I generally just mean to be sarcastic. Or snarkastic on a bad day. 🤪
Pigeon,
Oh, you came nowhere near raging, nor bitch. I do like SnarkTastic- though I wish you no bad days. 🙂 I will have to look up Cyanide and Happiness. Cheers
Sister Kisser,
Nothing wrong with a joke as long as it is in “fun” SK and I hope that even if I am not that far separated in age from Mr M, I have not totally lost my sense of humour. I don’t like it when people are unnecessarily rude but this site is not as toxic as some fan sites, not mentioning any names but thinking of one that is administered from Scandinavia….
https://grrrm.livejournal.com/14862.html
written 10 years ago and the guy was right on point !