Ballymena Times reports that Game of Thrones has been shooting in the area between Glenarm and Ballygalley, in Northern Ireland this week.
They note, “Privately-owned land just off Sallagh Road was the location where cast and crew – including 400 extras – gathered to shoot scenes for the upcoming sixth season of the smash-hit TV show.”
The Sallagh Braes and Knock Dhu region near Carncastle has been used as a filming location for Game of Thrones several times, going all the way back to the first episode. The green hills have stood in for several places, particularly the fields around Winterfell. Last year, scenes involving Littlefinger, Sansa and the Knights of the Vale, and separate ones with Brienne and Pod were filmed around Sallagh Braes.
The mention of 400 extras points toward possibly an army or a khalasar. Two weeks ago, pink “GOT” filming signs were spotted around Glenarm but it was unclear where exactly filming was taking place or what sort of scene was being shot. The signage posted included a mention of horses. The climate may seem too cold for Dothraki scenes but Game of Thrones has used the hills around Northern Ireland for Dothraki scenes many times, including in the season 5 finale.
So speculate away!
Game of Thrones season 5 and 6 director Jeremy Podeswa talks to YahooTV in a new interview, discussing season 6 and even the much-maligned Dornish fight scene from season 5.
On taking the reins of the season 6 premiere:
Expectations are always very high at the beginning of the season, and checking in with all of the characters is a daunting prospect. But what’s great about this season is that there’s very little expository stuff. It starts off with a bang and you’re right into the excitement of the story.
As for that fight scene between Jaime, Bronn, the Sand Snakes, and the Dornish guards:
It was a really fun sequence to do, but those scenes are tricky if it’s not something you do all the time. I’ve done a lot of them for shows like The Borgias and The Tudors. Everything has to be tailored very specifically to the characters. Like the Sand Snakes are very young, and Jamie only has one hand. So all of those things are parameters that dictate how you choreograph something.
Podeswa further explains why there may have been limitations on the fight:
It was all shot in the Alcazar, and we had to find a big enough area for the amount of action we had to have happen. So when I was scouting the location, that plaza was the most obvious place. There was really no other choice of where to shoot it. In fact, the space was too big, so we put trees and stuff in there to make the characters seem more entrapped.
To read Podeswa’s thought on Sansa’s wedding and more, check out the interview at Yahoo.
Balon!
Making the 8:
Balon!
Hodor!
I said it in the Spring, but I really do feel like the size of the space played a big role in how underwhelming the Dorne fight sequence felt. Looking back to 504, the claustrophobic Barristan fight scene felt like it had higher stakes; partly because of the space they fought in. The Alcazar is a stunning location but unfortunately the plaza ended up being too open. Even with other wide open spaces, the geography can sometimes help create tension. For instance, Brienne v Hound or Jaime/Bronn v Dornish riders.
It was interesting to hear his remarks about the S6 premiere. I suppose because of all of the cliffhangers in 510 they’ll be able to skip some of the traditional plot bricklaying for 601 & 602.
Hodor! (I’m a traditionalist).
Edit: I see that JohnDoe (clever fellow) got a Balon-Hodor two-fer. How about “Hound”?
Lion of Night,
I suspected this as well. They should’ve shot the fight elsewhere (and really should’ve written the whole scene differently).
Other than the Sand Snake fight though, I think both of his episodes last season were excellent, especially the Valyria sequence (one of the more underrated parts of S5 IMHO) in Kill the Boy and Sansa’s wedding.
Sounds like Bolton-Vale-Northern clash being filmed.
Making the 8,
Haha I wonder what Balon has been up to this season. Technically the Iron Islands are still in a state of rebellion and yet no one in King’s Landing has made any mention of it.
LordDavos,
Exactly what I was thinking. Wasn’t the Umber described as “Spectacular in battle” in the casting call?
Would they have to spread and then remove tons of fake snow to film any sort of Northern-set battle sequence? Laborious, I would imagine.
Not great excuses to be honest. There was a lot of space for the Jaime/Bronn fight to take place in too and that was infintely better than the SS one. Giving Jessica Henwick a whip was a stupid idea as unless they’re in high calibre Wushu territory it’s never going to look good. Even then it would have to be a chain whip and not the bull whip used by Nym. That said , Henwick has some Wushu experience so they should have given her a spear or sword. The fight itself was badly choreographed and the reason for it happening made no sense. Not to mention the daft lines shoved in there from Obara. A bad workman blames his tools. They knew what they had to work with and they didn’t deliver.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I do feel sorry for Henwick, who trained for months with that whip only for it to look utterly useless onscreen.
GRRM confirms Stannis is still alive in the books? Does this mean that Stannis is coming back on tv??
It’s pretty amazing they filmed a scene with 400 extras, and other than people spotting the pink signs and signs with mention of horses, no one outside the production was aware of what was going on. That’s some impressive keeping things quiet, imo.
Nadia,
Without parsing precisely what GRRM said in relation to the books, the writers of the show pretty clearly made significant revisions to the plot to end Stannis’ story earlier than it will in the books. I can’t imagine what the point of him surviving at this point would be.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
It seems like a fairly rural area, just the hills so unless a hiker wandered across them filming, they would’ve gotten away with it. Often the locals do see them, they just respect the filming and don’t tell people about it.
No, Stannis is dead for certain on the show.
There’s a couple ways of looking at it. In the books, there is decent-sized overlap between A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter. TWOW Book spoilers:
But also- it might just be that GRRM may not have written Stannis’s death yet.
Bottom line is this has no bearing on the show. Stannis is dead, and there are a LOT of misleading headlines out there right now trying to make it seems like GRRM was saying he was alive on GoT. He wasn’t. He was referencing his story only, in his typically inscrutable George way.
Sue the Fury,
I hope what I said didn’t come across as any sort of criticism for y’all not knowing about it. I certainly didn’t mean it that way! It just seems like a lot of people to keep quiet. I’d guess it being private property helped a lot.
JohnDoe,
Hod-deez nuts! The man said balon, let him bask in his glory!
Lion of Night,
FYI the dorne fight sequence could’ve taken place in the octogon, the squared circle, the colloseum, it would not have made a difference. It was straight cheeks. I haven’t had any major gripes about the show excluding that fight, so here’s to putting that behind us and getting back on that marvelous track they’ve been on
Littlefinger’s desire inventor,
Good for them.
If you hadn’t noticed, most of the people here couldn’t care less what goes on over there, anymore.
I wrote up a full subsection about this on the episode article at Game of Thrones Wiki, with cited quotes:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Unbowed,_Unbent,_Unbroken#The_Sand_Snakes_fight_scene
Laurenti-Sellers (Tyene) let it slip that they received hardly any fight choreography training, only very late in production. Oh they had “weapons training” before that, but not choreography as a group in the actual fight moves.
Sue the Fury,
Sue, just wondering, is that info from your sources? If so, I guess we can say Stannis is definitely dead.
Do you know if LSH is definitely cut from season 6? Thanks!
Sean C.,
I think the actresses had an awful script/material to work with so I’m reserving criticism of them until next season. I think Henwick’s Nym certainly came out of the trainwreck of Dorne with the most credibility of the SS. Obara had the most random lines of any character in the series and had this weird angry for no reason vibe (like the books) bizarely contrasted with a liking for meditation! Was odd. Tyene was pretty much a pair of boobs and the “bad pussy” line which hasn’t put her character in a great light. Nym was spared the worst of it as she barely did anything. A blessing in disguise.
The Dragon Demands,
That would explain a lot!
Must say, it worries me that they are again casting pretty late so the time for choreography training isn’t going to be there again.
Let’s just get over the SS fighting scene… It happened, let’s deal with it.
Lion of Night,
Yeah you might have a point, the enclosed space of the Cave helped the Beric vs Hound fight, plus the Mountain vs Oberyn was helped by a smallish plaza, just missing beheaded Stableboy onlookers….
They may have done better to have the fight take place in the room where Ellaria was arrested perhaps?
Reckon this will have had to do with a Dothraki scene
Perhaps Dany getting taken back to Vaes Dothrak as a widowed Khaleesi type thing?
Maybe it was some kind of battle scene, I am expecting wintry battle scenes though so if the pic above is anything to judge it looks to summery to be winter-is-nearly-here Westeros
Earlier today I watched a short video about David Nutter directing a bit of the Daznak pit scene. Every second of Drogon’s sequence was tremendously complicated. And Drogon was onscreen for minutes, doing complex stuff. It’s quite a marvel how he directed every bit of that sequence. If this scene with 400 extras for Season 6 involves Daenerys, the Dothraki horde AND horses, and then Drogon arriving on the scene, I can imagine a pretty short sequence taking days to plan and film and involving many, many extras.
To sum up – he should have left out the ‘trees and stuff’. Since he’s done a lot of these things. Loved the rest of the episode, but honestly that explanation is lame. Ah well, onward and upward? 🙂
Battle of Wimterfell v2.
Sounds like Emilia wasn’t hyping when she said the scripts were “insane” from start to finish.
Were there any tennis ball sightings????
Sue the Fury,
For all we know, GRRM could mean Stannis is alive for a couple of chapters in the book. I mean, he still has to burn Shireen, right?
Ghost’s Lunch,
Right. Formatting the sequence differently would have also helped. I know some people threw out the idea of a chase scene where Jaime has to chase down the SS’s *after* they’ve kidnapped Myrcella only to be stopped by Areo and his men when everyone reaches a dead-end or something. That being said, location clearly shapes fight sequences. (I had totally forgotten about the Hound v Beric battle-that’s a great example.)
Robb Snow,
Totally! I try not to let that overshadow some of the other superb content in Podeswa’s episodes. And I suspect we’re both on same page in recognizing “GoT sub-par” as miles ahead of more typical “TV sub-par.”
Ravyn,
Yeah hopefully. Now we just have to endure the wait!
Am I the only one, who was not bothered by the fight, at all?
Ravyn,
I don’t think he will burn Shireen himself. They are miles away from each other in the books: but Mel and Selyse are with Shireen, so they’ll likely burn her.
I seem to be one of the few people who thinks Stannis will survive a bit longer in the books. 🙂 I believe he’ll win the Battle of Winterfell, hold Winterfell and then be murdered by vengeful Northerners.
Sam the Slayer,
I think he’ll die during the battle. Just to finally throw away those ridiculous statements, about him being the best commander in Westeros. Like it was proven at Blackwater.
Yeah he held Storm End’s, but that was thanks to his pesonality, stuborness. Holding a castle, when the enemy just sits and eats, is not really a battle.
If the northeners would kill him, then people will say, that no one beat Stannis in a ”fair” fight. So if GRRM writes it that way, just not to angry Stannis’s ”fans”, then it would be just poor writing.
OT:
WotW didn’t made a post about this, right? Maybe you should, the Making of The Great Pit Fight of Daznak video is very interesting imo.
Mods: My post all go in moderation, can you fix that somehow, please? 🙂
What do people think of Podeswa’s refusal to engage with the questions about the way violence against female characters is portrayed on the show?
Just heard from a VERY reliable source that Luke Roberts (black sails) will be playing legendary fighter!!
Estelindis,
Nothing.
Estelindis,
Disappointed, but it’s typical of people invovled in the show to asnwer like that when asked this type of question. I wish they would engage, but they obviously don’t want to. They probably don’t have any deep reasoning behind these scenes except: ooohhh it’s shocking and derpessing, let’s do it!! Let’s rape/sexually abuse everyone on this show (but women mostly, because hey, that’s fantasy life!)
” the show picks up where it left off last season”
So the first scene of the first episode will be at the wall? I just wonder what will happen to Jon Snow’s corpse: will the traitors try to hide it/him? Will Mel be alerted by her oh so accurate visions? Will there be a ruckus between the wildlings, the loyal watchmen and the traitors?
I’m sure Jon will return to the living sooner or later and I know Theon, Sansa and the Hound (hooray!) are still alive but I hope D&D don’t overdo it with the resurrections, before you know it the show has it’s own “Moldavian Massacre” (yes I’m old enough to remember that); with everyone being left in jeopardy at season’s end only to turn up magically alive and well, one episode later.
scene 1: Mel suddenly remembers she didn’t skip “resurrection 101” classes in Red Priest High and ressurects Jon and his beautiful hair.
scene 2: Sansa and Theon Snowglide down to an Inn where Yara just happens to pass by with what remains of the fifty most dangerous assasins from the Iron Islands.
scene 3: Trystane runs towards Myrcella (in slow motion) with the antidote in his hands…Myrcella survives and Team Dad, Daughter-Niece, Future Son in Law and Whacky Sellsword plot revenge on Ellaria and the Charmed girls.
scene 4:Brienne forgave Stannis. He pledges fealty to Brienne and heads of to the Inn for chicken happy hour with the Hound.
scene 5: Myranda…stays dead, deader than dead…
Queensmoot
What you said, is quite delusional. I highly doubt, that they where exited to write that scene, or film it. What do you want them to say? Whe shouldn’t have filmed that?
The tought, that they have something against women, is amuzingly ridiculous.
There has been men who suffered, for example Theon, what this guy went trough is easly the worst thing anyone, on the show, suffered.
Jaime losing his hand…etc.
The tought that they wrote that scene, jus too have women, or Sansa suffer, is simply wrong.
Mihnea,
*round of applause*
Estelindis,
Queensmoot,
The answer is because they know people like yourselves will overanalyse every word they say and pick at things that don’t need picking.
At what point did you realise this show featured graphic scenes of violence, sex, violent sex, torture and abuse of position and power? If you don’t enjoy it but have sat through 5 seasons of it then you’re your own worst enemy.
The world they are portraying is not a nice one. One of it’s central themes is stuggle for power. The majority of rape (male and female) is not about sexual desire, it’s about power. So it is a valid tool in portraying the various power dynamics of characters, The things that happen to the characters aren’t nice. But the point is these things happen to develop the characters. I’m a big book fan but I think the Sansa going to Winterfell (despite the ludicrous means of getting her there) was a sensible change. It made her relevant and gave her adversity to overcome. Are you telling me you would have preferred a season of her sitting in the Vale eating lemoncakes? In a fictional world where people are killing, mutilating, cannibalising, torturing and enslaving eachother to shy away from rape is dishonest and unrealistic. We don’t tolerate rape in the real world but that doesn’t mean it can’t be used to tell a story in fiction. We never get people complaining about the subjects of murder, torture or slavery despite them still ( like rape) being serious issues in the real world. If you think that they have been presenting rape in a positive light then I think that says more about you than the show.
Bottom line is the makers of the show are not there to discuss social issues (which IMO bear no relevance to a medievalesque fantasy show). They are there to make entertainment. If you don’t find it entertaining then don’t watch it. Simple as that.
Mihnea,
Eh, Stannis losing Blackwater didn’t really have something to do with him being a bad commander. He was led in an ambush he couldn’t have known of, twice, with the wildfire and the Tyrells. And the wildfire didn’t really provide much of a hindrance to him anyway: he lost his ships, yes, but he still nearly defeated the Lannisters until the Tyrells came along and would’ve won without the Tyrells. So Blackwater is not really evidence that he is not as good a commander as people in the show say.
Besides, he’s done more battles than just the Siege of Storm’s End: the Greyjoy rebellion, wildling attack and he also fought some more battles in Robert’s Rebellion if I remember correctly.
Except she didn’t overcome adversity. She was completely defeated, and was then rescued by Theon. And the ludicrous means of getting her there, in your words, just makes her look dumber (in this very interview, Podeswa talks about the wedding scene as Sansa “[giving] up the control she thought she had”; what control did she think she had, and why? She is transparently powerless the second she sets foot in Winterfell, if not much earlier, and could only think she’s in control if she were deluded in a manner far exceeding her attitude in the first season, which is what the plot requires her to be to go to Winterfell; so rather than a Sansa who is learning, you have a Sansa who is less aware of her situation than Sansa in season 1, and is less effective in captivity than Sansa in season 2, where she actually succeeded at manipulating Joffrey a few times).
False choice.
But I would have preferred a more low-key season than one that completely trashed what modicum of progress the character had made on the show. But even had they decided to send Sansa to Winterfell, there were a million ways it could have been done better than how they did it.
Sean C.,
Didn’t say she fully overcame it but she did at least have adversity to try and overcome! She also played an important role in jarring Theon into doing something and showed some intiative to try and find a way out of her situation as well as having some resistance when she gave Myranda some back and then started to try and rile Ramsay up. It wasn’t a complete victory and had a great many stumbles but if she had somehow managed to outwit/outplay the entire Bolton household it would have been daft! I think this is the most interesting and likeable Sansa season there’s been. Some people (not yourself) seem to want her become a mastermind gameplayer of the like of Littlefinger which is unrealistic and would be silly. Sansa’s doesn’t have to be about her obtaining power. I think it’s more about a bird escaping a cage. Her ultimate aim is freedom in a number of aspects.
I dunno. I think they need to start getting her involved as she was running the risk of becoming stale. Could argue there were better ways to do it than this storyline but I think they’ve had to merge a few stories in the show for efficiency. I agree the means of getting her to Winterfell were ridiculous though.
Sam the Slayer,
Except that
. Instead, it should be one of our contenders for how the Walkers are going to get through the Wall.
Mods: Thanks for fishing my comment out, but unfortunately it didn’t fix the main problem. It doesn’t matter what I do, everything I write goes in moderation. I must be on some kind of blacklist, I guess. 🙁 Can you look into that? Thanks for helping.
Queensmoot,
This show, like most of the other cable TV series of its ilk, is completely focussed on story. It is like the control sentence of a properly written paragraph: everything points to it in the end, and the show runners have cut out stuff not feeding the story.
Because the story here (as in nearly all stories) comes from the parallels between how the main characters evolve, and because last season was telling a story about people aspiring to put aside their former selves (kill the boy/girl) and attain sonething greater than that (man/woman being born), and because GRRM has a theme of putting characters through cathartic traumas, it all fit into place. As for Sansa in particular, she had gotten zero dynamic develpoment through almost 4 seasons and books). Last year was her diving in headlong to the fray, and not faring particularly well. Was her treatment brutal? Yes: but the woman lives in a brutal world, not the silly fairy tales that poisoned the mind of the girl.
The question we should be asking is: how will the major traumas suffered by the main characters in season 5 contribute to the story of Season (and Book) 6? GRRM put in too much of it, and B&W added even more of it, for this to be a coincidence.
Estelindis,
I think he knows that literally anything he says will get him in trouble.
Abyss,
We’ve increased the measures to stop trolls (and it’s been pretty effective). This change doesn’t really affect most regular commenters, only new ones, but I think your email, because it’s obviously very long and fake, is reading as a spammer. Maybe try a different email and see if that works better? There’s no other reason I can see why you’d be blacklisted or anything.
Hamza Eric,
There’s nothing on any of Roberts’ resumes. Can you provide any proof or more info?
Nadia,
The show pulled his arc back to season 5 (hence all of his family dying with him). His fate will probably end somewhat similarly in a future book.
Time will tell which version is better (though GRRM definitely has the upper hand since he has hindisght). I really liked the tragedy that ended Stannis in the show, as hard as it was to watch.
I agree that her somehow taking down the Boltons from the inside strains credulity, but no more so than than her being there in the first place.
If the show wants me to believe this character has a brain, there has to be some way for her to do that in the show’s universe, otherwise she’s a complete moron for going there. Instead, they engaged in massive contrivances to get her there and then fell back on the undeniable fact that once there there wasn’t anything she could do — which in turn asks us to ignore the question of why, if that’s true, she ever agreed to go there in the first place and what she expected to accomplish (you saw this in the week-to-week reactions to this story, as many of its defenders or proponents doggedly insisted there must be more to this plan and any second now it would be revealed and allow Sansa to actually do something; that moment never came).
The end result is not just a complete rehash of Sansa’s earlier KL story, it’s a rehash of the story where she’s actually less effective than she was earlier, and when measured against her putative goal, ludicrously less effective. The capper is that a season that begins with Littlefinger urging her to stop running ends with Sansa’s only action being a failed attempt to run away.
I’d say smart man. When a director tries to offer an honest explanation and not shy away from a sensitive subject, he gets crucified on the altar of faux-political correctness and carefully rehearsed “fan” outrage. Just look at the cautionary tale of one Alex Graves.
But seriously, Sansa wasn’t aware of where they were going until they reached Deepwood Motte. When she did realize it, Littlefinger had to convince her to go – she wasn’t that happy with it.
The point is that the showrunners wanted us to think that Sansa would get some kind of redemption by going to winterfell just to show us how cruel the world of I&F is and in the end, she’d needed to run away again.
Another point is for Sansa to realize what game Littlefinger is playing, and that she’s just a part of it.
And from what I’ve heard, the Winterfell arc of season 5 was not about Sansa, but about the Boltons and in the end a bit of Stannis. To get inseide the castle walls of Winterfell they needed one of the shows main character to be there.
This wasn’t pointed directly at you Sean, just to the whole discussion.
Wimsey,
Sansa’s rape was done to develop Theon, not Sansa, and for that reason will most likely be papered over in whatever development she gets going forward. The show almost certainly has neither the room nor the interest in addressing that trauma in any meaningful manner; at most it will be unnecessary extra motivation against the Boltons.
My page a day calendar quote for 28-August
We were king’s men, knights, and heroes…but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.
-Thoros of Myr- A Feast for Crows
Sean C.,
I am going to be here, waiting your response, on how Sansa will change after Harry rapes her.
And your statement that they will just forget it, is quite ridiculous. But i expect people too moan, no matter what they do.
If Sansa manages to overcome this, then people will say they did not portayed the trauma of the rape.
If she spend the entire season trying to overcome what happened, people will moan that there is no character development.
From what I can see, they can’t win either way, with you people.
And your statement, that the rape was done to develop Theon is totally wrong. That scene had the same inpact, character devolpment wise, on both Theon and Sansa.
I think it’s smart for the director not to engage on those points because people just want to argue or point out how the writers/directors/actors/sound editing people are wrong in their decisions and choices and the people in charge of the show shouldn’t waste their time engaging with closed minds. It’s a waste of time and energy. (See, Sansa argument)
Sue the Fury,
Still doesn’t work. 🙁 I tried with a diffrent name and an e-mail that actually exists, but I still blocks me. The whole thing startet when I accidentally posted with my VPN on, pretty sure thats the reason the whol mess started. – But if there is really nothing in the system, I guess that doesn’t help you either…
Abyss,
Basically- and this goes for everyone, really- we need people to use real-ish emails, with valid and active country codes/extensions on their emails.
There is too much spent dealing with trolls and spamming here, so I’d rather have this new system than switch to a User registration system. We can do that, and it has some advantages, but you’d definitely have to have a real email for us then and be using it. And if we required all commenters to register, that would cut down a lot on comments.
Your specific IP from earlier when you tried to post wasn’t blocked. Hmm I’ll check again. Perhaps Akismet just recognizes a VPN user as a potential issue? Weird.
Sue the Fury,
The only Luke on Black Sails is Luke Arnold. Perhaps it’s Arnold he was talking about, not Roberts.
This! I agree with much of what people are saying about Sansa but I think we really need to see how this plays out (and I have a feeling this will make sense in the end and may even intensify her character arc).
Sansa was manipulated into going to Winterfell against her will by Littlefinger. My feeling is that now she’s free from Ramsays clutches, she’ll soon realise that LF is using her as a pawn in his game (if she hasn’t already done so whilst locked up in her chambers-she’s has a LOT of time to think and get bitter/angry in that room). I think that this will sow the seeds for Sansas rise to power and her revenge on LF and the Boltons. Her traumatic spell in Winterfell, although highly controversial and seemingly illogical, has taken her to her lowest point (nobody can argue with that). That to me makes any eventual (hopeful) victory all the more satisfying to the audience.
Mihnea,
Harry isn’t likely going to rape her, so you’ll likely be waiting a long time.
As to your supposed “damned if they do, damned if they don’t” argument, that double bind only exists because they added rape to Sansa’s story in the first place. They were the ones who put themselves in the position where actually addressing Sansa’s trauma in a meaningful way would get in the way of her story.
And no, it was for Theon. The whole Winterfell plot is built around motivating Theon to act by bringing him out of Reek mode through escalating situation. Sansa’s role is to be abused so that Theon can rescue her; for her, the rape is merely more invasive trauma packed on top of what she has already experienced, and does not supply any new motivation, etc. She already hated the Boltons and has already gone from being naive to being deeply disillusioned. In fact, they had to make her naive again (indeed, more naive than ever) to get her to Winterfell in the first place, making the whole exercise a circular one.
Paul,
The writers denied that interpretation. They say Littlefinger was not manipulating her, but gave her a real choice.
Sean C.,
When Harry rapes her, i will be here, waiting for you to tell me how differant it is in the books, and how much better.
Same with Stannis.
Same with Barristan.
Sue the Fury,
Don’t know if you changed something, but it’s working again. VPN doesn’t seem to be the problem, I tried another VPN and it worked. I think the problem is with encrypted connections, btw, could be that the spam filter doesn’t like the type my vpn uses or the static IP of the server is on the black list somewhow.
Gravemaster,
I don’t see any info on an of his CVs either. He seems like a weird fit for the part.
Abyss,
Check your email.
Mihnea,
Well, accepting your unlikely premise, when Harry rapes her it won’t be as a consequence of Sansa agreeing to abandon her allies and depend entirely on a man she previously understood was untrustworthy, travel hundreds of miles without asking where they’re going, then agreeing after three or four sentences to become the hostage of and marry the son of her brother’s murderer because in some unexplained way this will “avenge them.” So we’re already off to a better start.
Sean C.,
There, there. Let the rage and anger out. It’s not good for you.
Don’t worry. Harry will not rape her…..Stannis will not die, and will become king.
Shireen will rule Dragonstone.
And Selmy will not be killed by yunkish slave soldier #3.
Argh, back to the stupid Sansa opinions!
Sue the Fury,
Thanks for helping me out. 🙂
TheTouchOfFrost,
Applause to you Sir!!
Me too. And the more time goes by and the more outrage I read here about it, the less and less I care. It wasn’t the fight that bothered me, it was the extremely tiny amount of time spent on the entirety of Dorne in Season 5, which left things very half-measure, murky, and odd. On rewatches, I have come to a different conclusion about Dornish goals than on my very first watch (esp. Doran) and I’ll wait to see how things develop in Season 6. 😀
Mihnea,
There are very few fans who don’t think Stannis is going to die by the end. His death was not what was criticized; rather, the manner of it.
I never criticized Selmy’s death (another character whose death is generally recognized as likely). Indeed, I noted at the time that if they were seriously streamlining the whole Meereen situation there was some sense in it, since there doesn’t seem likely to be a Battle of Meereen, etc.
But if you need to keep building straw men to continue delegitimizing any criticism of the show, be my guest.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Just saw your reply.(need knew glasses!)
Even tough we don’t always agree with each other. I fully agree with everything you said here. While i agree, that the motivation of going too Winterfell, for Sansa could have been better (I think LF reason is quite good), Sansa, sitting in the Vale, with Robin(lol) was 100% not an option. From a storytelling perspective, and a financial one. Hiring 7-9 other actors, for the Vale ”plot”, would have been pointless, and the money is better spent in another place.
Sorry, but that is utter rubbish. This will have profound effects on how Sansa’s character evolves, just as Jon’s and Daeny’s assassination attempts, Tyrion’s patricide, Bran’s, Jaime’s and Theon’s maimings, Arya’s blinding, etc., all will have on them.
Yes, a little of it was about Theon: but 90% of it was about Sansa. You really need to pull your head out of the snow on this one! You also need to stop think of dynamic character development as progress: it isn not progress, but evolution: and a key part of the evolution of GRRM’s characters is some literal or figurative maiming. If you had left this out of your ideas on how Sansa was going to evolve, then you were anticipating incorrectly!
Sean C.,
Before Stannis died in Ep9, i read dozens of theories, not one where he dies. And if you expect some heroic death in the books for him, your very wrong. He’s a kinslayer, he killed his own brother.
I’m not building strawmen arguments. I’m having a calm disscussion. Your the who acts like i’m an idiot or stupid, if i see no ”plot hole” or simply enjoyed the Show story better then the one in the books.
Kay and Mihnea, yeah, that fight was not nearly as bad the second time around watching it, and I realized that obviously my opinion of it was being coloured by online discussions I had read after seeing the episode.
I have to say, Sansa’s wedding scene on rewatch was insanely haunting/chilling/strangely beautiful the way Podeswa indicated in his interview. I think I actually said, “wow” outloud during some of those shots. Such a great juxtaposition of beauty and tremendous foreboding.
Thank you to everyone who made an effort to reply sensibly to comments made by
Sean C and Estelindis
To add further discussion would be too much and not appreciated either way. People just get it in their heads that Sansa was supposed to be treated one way only and the departure was never going to be accepted and in general criticized at every opportunity. The thousands of thoughtful responses have proven that these folk are in the minority and leave the impression that they must wake up each day wondering how they are going to be able to take the jam out of someone’s doughnut today. It used to be interesting, now it is boring – especially the Sansa Trope and the Sand Snake grumble soup.
Season six is coming and it is exciting to think that from jump it is going to be action filled. Hopefully we will get some answers and be ready to suspend our normal everyday belief and take the fantasy journey with Games of Thrones.
*eyeballs jelly filled doughnut with high interest*
Wimsey,
Very well said Wimsey!
Character progression is not linear! Its like, lets say, the Stock market (I’m an economist, so forgive me 🙂 ), today it’s 2 points up, tomorrow it’s 4 points down.
kit_hepburn,
I’m glad i’m not alone! And I agree, the wedding was superbly shot. Worthy of a Emmy nomination.
As far as I see it, GRRM’s confirmation that Stannis lives in the novels is nearly confirmation he’s dead in the show.
If the show intended to bring Stannis back, GRRM would not say anything that might ruin the surprise.
….
Re: novels, I agree with those who believe Stannis might actually take Winterfell only to be betrayed by the North. Typical GRRM.
Re: possible show battle. I think another Winterfell battle would feel redundant unless it’s more of a political than military struggle and/or a principal character is involved like Jon Snow. Seeing Bolton, “Umber/Manderly,” Littlefinger, and Jon all converge on Winterfell at once with varying interests could be compelling.
Interesting point I ran across earlier this week in re-reading book 2. It’s amazing how little bits of dialogue suddenly appear to have more meaning when seen in light of subsequent events.
There’s a passage where Brienne is accepted into Catelyn’s service and she (Brienne) goes on for a bit about how she has sworn to kill Stannis (I had forgotten completely about this, but in light of season 5, hmmm):
After some further dialogue about serving kings, Brienne offers to serve Cat, and then this passage appears:
Is it possible that Brienne killing Stannis is something that will actually happen in the books? When the time comes, will LSH let her do it?
JCDavis,
Hear, hear.
Simeon,
At this point, anything can happen.
One thing that i belive we have do to, after all this spoilers, in S6. We need to re-think our theories, those we started thinking as ”certain”, until now.
So Brienne killing Stannis is something I would not rule out.
Mihnea,
That’s one thing I kind of like about the show getting ahead — it can poke holes in all of those “certain” theories that people have been building up and supporting for (in some cases) 15 years.
And then again, it might also just be the show taking a different path. We don’t know. Finally, we don’t know what’s going to happen. I kind of like being an “unsullied” at last!
Simeon,
The fealing is amazing!! I can’t wait for S6, finally i can enjoy the Show the way it’s meant, having no, god damn, clue what’s going to happen next. 🙂
And about the show diverging, i think we need to look at the big picture. Yes Sansa never married Ramsey, but now we know for cartain that her story is in the North, not KL or the Vale. And if i where to go even further, i think we also know how she gets there. I suspect with LF in the books, while in the show she goes before.
I’m re-watching the series and just by chance I watched the episode with this conversation yesterday and was thinking the exact same thing. I think that it will definitely happen in the books as well..!
https://twitter.com/IrishThrones
Has some new filming information. Apparently it’s a big filming day at Shane’s Castle where the filmed the High Sparrow, Winterfell crypts and some Sansa and Theon.
You assume.
No, it was about Theon. It exists entirely to move Theon toward action, the same reason it exists in the books. Sansa’s development had to be totally reset to put her in that position, making it, at most, a restatement of things she had already experienced and learned.
I have no idea where you get the idea that I think trauma isn’t part of character development, or that such development is entirely linear. Sansa’s character development has featured plenty of trauma from the beginning, and has not been entirely linear (much to the frustration of many who don’t like the character). But the show in season 5 did not evolve the character; they sent her back to her Season 2-3 story, immediately after she got out of that scenario, in a manner that made no logical sense and removed any sense of skill development from earlier seasons at a time when she is meant, like her siblings, to be making real progress in her chosen trade. In doing so, it completely undercuts her story.
JCDavis,
There is very little new for either side to say on the subject at this point, and won’t be until subsequent developments provide more material. But this is a post featuring, among other things, an interview discussing Sansa’s controversial Season 5 story, so it should hardly be surprising that some of the discussion is about just that, as wearying as it has become.
Sean C.,
You assume.
HotPinkLipstick,
A multi-purpose location, so not overly easy to guess what’s being filmed.
Mihnea,
Indeed, they are both assumptions. I have made my assumption based on my assessment of the show’s track record and what I feel the probable story direction is. Others will do the same and arrive at contrary conclusions. But it cannot be stated as a fact that this will have profound effects on character development and the character’s arc going forward, as that hasn’t been told yet — and I’ve already outlined why, based on what we’ve seen so far, I don’t think it will be.
Can we just stop this tired out circle jerk regarding Sansa and Sandsnakefight? June is a long time ago already..
I’m still surprised they managed to get 400 extra’s in, without anyone spilling beans. My guess is continuation of the Dany/Dothraki-scene.
To me, there will always be differences in opinion regarding the “conservation of story” during adaptation, as we have discussed on several occasions. Perhaps Sean C overstepped a bit when declaring that post-wedding scene for Theon, but it is fairly obvious that he didn’t like the adaptation of Sansa’s S5 tale from the start. His other points are valid, with which I more-or-less agree. Sansa’s quite stunning adaptation continues to jar many fans….but the showrunner’s exploited that deviation exceptionally and they have been rewarded with an Emmy nom. D&D have assertively placed their stamp on Sansa’s story as of S5.
Mihnea
Regarding Stannis and Selmy, not so much. Selmy’s PoVs in the latter part of ADwD are filled with great mystery and the foreboding/daunting prep for battle, essentially nothing like the adaptation. I’m glad Selmy went down like a warrior but that we won’t have some great ADwD/TWoW moments as Selmy asserts himself as the Queen’s Hand and military leader is disappointing. Per show spoiler, he probably will get slain in the looming battle, perhaps by a flying pale mare-infested corpse. But as others have discussed extensively, it looks like there may not be a great Meereen battle in the show,…hence “conservation of story.”
Similarly, regarding Stannis….per show spoiler, his last stand will be at/near WF in TWoW. His PoVs are Theon & Asha/Yara…so I’m almost wondering if all three of them get wiped out during the battle, or somehow Asha & Theon escape, or Ramsay gets his Reek back. Regardless, the entire Stannis family arc is going to be summarily extinguished and the show made it quite clear that the end is both delusional and tragic. Personally, I was spoiled when Shireen left with Stannis…. Can’t wait to read how it plays out near Long Lake and at the Wall in TWoW.
I am curious how you manage to costume 400 extras and not one photo leaks of someone wandering around … I mean if it’s the Dothraki, that’s much easier to hide than if there are 400 people in armor.
Apparently they are building Izebmaro’s theatre in Girona right now.
http://www.diaridegirona.cat/girona/2015/08/28/placa-dels-jurats-comenca-convertir/740828.html
http://multimedia.diaridegirona.cat/fotos/girona/joc-trons-girona-dia-42230.shtml
Ser Oromis Locke,
I agree, my apologies, for letting myself be cought in that disscusion.
especially with Sean C…should have known better.
Ser Oromis Locke,
That’s certainly a reasonable guess. Do we know how many actual extras they used to film the cliffhanger with the Dothraki, versus VFX?
The presentation of the Dothraki khalasar was one of Season 1’s more obvious budget limitations, so it will be interesting to see what they do now that they have way more money. That one shot from the finale was already broader in scope than anything we saw in Season 1.
When it comes to Sansa, her development and her “agency” I think everything comes to what people expect her to be and not what is her real direction as a character.
Some Sansa’s fans take too literally everything LF said to her in ASOS and AFFC, his “when you start playing the game of thrones” speeches.
But we know that someone else is teaching Arya to become no one, and we all know that will never happen.
If you except Sansa to become a “player”, then yes, she didn’t have any development, and I don’t think she will ever have. In the books or the show. She can make allegiances to re-establish her family in the North, but that is not playing the game of thrones, it is protecting your family, your legacy.
But to hear her saying: I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell. This is my home. And you can’t frighten me…. , to watch her in the crypts of winterfell,.. it is great, because her arc is reSTARKisation
Those scenes came from a person who first lost her direwolf, who hated the North, who betrayed her father, who dreamt about the South and KL,…
It is a great development and something completely new from her.
For the first time ever I really saw Sansa as a Stark. And now she is in a position to reunite her family, to build what was destroyed, to have her redemption.
From a fan perspective, I’m annoyed–not one person is coming forward with details or pictures?–but from a production perspective, I’m impressed. 400 extras and not a peep as to what they’re up to? Well done.
So excited. I knew that D&D couldn’t pass up the opportunity to do
, assuming that’s what’s going on.
This is going to be awesome. Bonus points if the troupe heads to Meereen, which was suggested by the Kinvara audition, and
mau,
These is where most problems apear, i agree.
Sansa will never play the game of thrones, because she does not want too.
Gravemaster,
The casting of the female mummer suggested that some aspect of that location was being maintained. I’d be interested to see why, since it seemed in “Mercy” that Arya was done with that location and the principal object of that chapter has been accomplished.
I doubt the show has room for this, but the device of Arya being backstage at a play based on the events in Westeros could be the basis for some amusing bits, a la “The Ember Island Players.”
Yes, exactly. I mean, if I’m an extra in GoT, I want a photo of myself in costume to share, right? Did they make these people take blood oaths? Confiscate all cell phones on set (I’d do this one if I were running the production.) And that is a ton of costumes. Just a ton. They have to be made and transported, fitted, and then hair and makeup. What a massive production to have kept totally secret.
Props to the production team.
But dammit, give me a leak already!
Maybe they learned some lessons from the filming of the Purple Wedding, where one of the extras took a ton of photos of the extras in costume, cast members, etc.
…Still, even if they confiscate cameras, there’s nothing to stop an extra from blabbing about the details anonymously online after the fact, and the fact that nothing has happened along those lines is impressive. It will be even more impressive if that scene requiring a ridiculous amount of extras (1,200 or something like that) is filmed with no leaks.
Any more news on the Luke Arnold thing or was that just BS
Arya will never be No One, but in the course of trying to be she is acquiring valuable skills. I would argue the parallel with Sansa is that she will never be the devoted prize that Littlefinger is trying to make her into. They are states of mind, not skill sets.
With respect, I don’t see the distinction. Restoring her family to its place is most definitely playing the game of thrones. The Stark seat at Winterfell is a throne. Whether she’s acting out of familial duty or selfish desire is about motive (the why), not how she works to accomplish this.
Sansa never hated the North; she dreamed of the South, to be sure. Betraying her father never happened on the show.
Gaining greater appreciation for aspects of Northern culture and family is most definitely a huge part of Sansa’s story. That’s not remotely controversial among fans; indeed, it’s probably an article of faith.
Mihnea,
Yes, For example, annoying Joanna Robinson from vanity fair was disappointed because Sansa didn’t kill anyone with that thing she took in S5E7.
So that is their understanding of strong characters and a character development.
FTW….WTF,
If it ends up being true I could see him playing Dayne …….http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2674708736/nm2315197
mau,
Well said! Agreed!!
The motive is the most important thing about a character. She doesn’t want some throne, she wants her home. She would be fighting for that even if her home is an old stable
But she was a bitch to him, more than she was in the books.
.
I never felt it was a huge part of her story in the books yet, except when she was building a snow castle.
Hey, Abyss. I have been wondering something similar. Starting this past month, if I go back and correct punctuation or grammar or clarify a point in a comment (within the new 5 minute rule) the comment will immediately go into “awaiting moderation”. It is a bit frustrating, especially since the original unedited comment was initially “approved” and published. But, oh well, I like giving Sue and her team busy work. 🙂
One of the best Avatar episodes! Toph FTW!!
But, yeah, don’t really see them doing anything quite like that on GoT. It’s almost TOO meta.
Thank the gods.
Some people are talkers. “I hate talkers.”
Did not! Did too! Did not! Did too!
mau,
Sometimes I really wish there was a ‘like’ option in these posts. 😉
Hyrkoon,
While I do think this site could use a dose of good old fashioned humor, this is beyond tasteless, tacky, crude and pointless. Maybe you are trolling? Making a statement about WotW? Quite an adult way to deal with it……NOT.
To everyone else, sorry. I tried hard to ignore this – but it kept calling me back. Some days it is hard not to feed the trolls.
*pushes “like” button*
I don’t know where to post this or if this even means anything, but Gwendoline just retweeted this article and said “thank you” (LOTS of book spoilers in it):
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/08/game-of-thrones-season-six-brienne-lady-stoneheart?utm_content=buffer3904d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
What? Sorry. I was distracted by the Tommy Hilfiger advert next to her article. Still recovering from the swoon!!
The article is a re-hash of most all the “possible” ways next season could go and has been done many times here. The photos were great!! I would love to think that Brienne is used better next season than as she says “spending two months in the snow waiting for a candle to be lit”. But it was a good article. Thanks.
Hi-Fi,
There’s the deep emotion that’s been missing from Brienne’s plot…
Filler from AFFC is a deep emotion?
Oh, god, I just can’t stand Joanna Robinson.
Got any links, or is this purely word-of-mouth?
You think Harry’s going to rape Barristan? Someone needs to direct him to the Lemonparty video. 😉
You’re welcome, JCDavis
mau,
lol is she the article’s author?
I agree with you. I couldn’t get into Brienne’s adventures in the two latest books.
I think it was very smart of him. As others have already pointed out, there is nothing he can say which will quell the hand-wringing of those (and here I’m referring to book-readers, not Unsullied, since they have no point of comparison) who choose to be so outraged by how the show handles certain scenes. Moreover, it, imo, would be impossible to have that conversation without first taking an honest look at the way violence against female characters is portrayed in the books, in other words, taking a hard look at the source material. I have always found it exceptionally problematic certain book-readers were so incensed over Sansa’s wedding night, as much of it seemed to be focusing on the fact it happened to Sansa. Given Sansa was put in Jayne Poole’s place, the fact the show toned what happened down so much seems to escape that group. Back to investigating the source material, and keeping with Sansa, I am doing a re-read and just so happened to reread the scene where Joffrey is having Sansa publicly beaten and humiliated…the one where Tyrion comes in and puts a stop to it. I’d seen the scene as portrayed in the show several times since I’d read the scene in the books, and I have to say I was stunned by how much further the scene in the books went with the violence against her (since this is a direct passage from the books, I’ll put it under spoiler code):
“Enough,” she heard the Hound rasp.
“No it isn’t,” the king replied. “Boros, make her naked.”
Boros shoved a meaty hand down the front of Sansa’s bodice and gave a hard yank. The silk came tearing away, baring her to the waist…”
Now, what was it you wanted to say about how violence against female characters is portrayed on the show? What I would say is it’s a damn good thing the show has dialed it back, at least in many regards.
My apologies to anyone who feels like this post is just belaboring the point/perpetuating a conversation with which many of us (myself included) have grown quite tired.
According to IMDB,
(Luke) Arnold is an accomplished swordsman and sword fight choreographer.
Hi-Fi,
She is, and I “hate” her. There are so many reasons why.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I agree. Those comments about the show are hypocritical.
But that is the price of popularity and success.
D&D wrote that better than I can:
Do you know what leadership means (Lord Snow) ? It means that the person in charge gets second guessed by every clever little twat with a mouth. But if he starts second guessing himself, that’s the end. For him, for the clever little twats, for everyone.
Am I the only one who sees a parallel between Stannis’ and Sansa’s storylines in season 5?
• Both of them are presented with the possibility of conquering/reclaiming Winterfell.
• Both of them are persuaded by someone else that that’s their destiny.
*(We can debate here the degree of manipulation involved)
• Both of them make an ill-informed decision which leads them to make a huge sacrifice (in Stannis’ case, Shireen; in Sansa’s case, herself).
• Both of them fail miserably in their intent and pay it dearly.
• For both of them, their fate happens off screen (although we know Stannis is dead and Sansa is alive).
By the way, I have to agree that evolution of a character is not progression (at least not in a linear sense). I have no problems with character making mistakes or bad decisions. That doesn’t put them back to season 1 (although much could be argued that’s even another parallel between Sansa and Stannis in season 5). I do have a problem with people who think that because Sansa went through some nasty stuff, her character is now ruined or back to square one… that actually speaks more about those people themselves rather than about the actual character.
Sansa might never become the master manipulator I would like her to be and I have made my peace with it. I do hope season 6 will bring her better things though.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
*pushes the “like” button*
Well said. And though I am heartily tired of the Sansa stuff, that doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion. I happen to come down seeing this as you have written it. Thank you.
I didn’t say motive was not important, but either way what is being discussed is her motive to play the game, not whether she plays it. Restoring the Starks to Winterfell is playing the game, by definition. Being a “player” is not synonymous with being a self-interested sociopath like Littlefinger, or even particularly desiring political power; Ned was a player, for instance, just not a particularly adept one (at least, in the court in KL; he was evidently pretty good at playing the game in the North).
If you’re referring to the scene with the doll (the only show addition I can think of), the point of that scene is that Ned’s gift is insultingly inappropriate, both because it indicates Ned has no familiarity with what Sansa might want as a gift (and, in particular, infantilizes her) and that it’s completely out of scale compared to the situation. Sansa’s reaction is ho pretty much any child would react, under the circumstances. The equivalent would be if a modern Ned had run over a junior high-aged Sansa’s dog with his car and bought her a Dora the Explorer toy.
Reasserting her familial identity is a pretty regular aspect of her mental life while in King’s Landing, for instance, at her wedding. She bolsters herself frequently with talk about being “the blood of Winterfell”, Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn’s daughter, etc. When contemplating a disguise, she initially wants to use the name Catelyn. And so on. The snow castle is definitely the most overt example — positioned, of course, right before Littlefinger tries to strip her identity away, much like what the Faceless Men and trying to do with Arya.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
What is not at issue is whether violence against women is depicted, or even the extremity of it (though the books aren’t spotless on this issue either, in my view, for the record). That’s one of the tracks these discussions get on that I find quite misleading, as the most in-depth critiques of this show on this score are not about whether we should be seeing this at all, but the manner the show uses it and why, as well as other aspects of the story structure.
Figures.
I doubt it ever crossed anyone’s mind that it was problematic. Even though it’s insanely problematic. And the really tragic part is all the people responding to you saying “if you think it’s problematic you’re just a book purist killjoy SJW.” Like, I can kind of understand a set of male directors, writers, and showrunners creating this scene without realizing how problematic it is. But once someone points it out and people either shut down or try to refute the fact that it’s problematic and even launch counter-attacks…I just don’t get it. The camera panning up to Reek’s face, as if the rape of Sansa were being done to Reek and not Sansa, killed my joy for Game of Thrones. I keep watching because it’s interesting, but I no longer have the same kind of anticipation for new episodes.
I’m sure Podeswa dodged the question thinking “anything I say will get me in hot water,” and I’m equally sure he has no true understanding of why said hot water exists. The majority of the fandom doesn’t seem to understand, either.
This is kind of exhibit A for why we need more female writers/directors/showrunners. Guys existing in guy-world (and the odd woman who gets into guy-world and feels she needs to adopt its rules to survive) just don’t seem able to understand this kind of thing.
And, just to reiterate, the problem here is NOT that violence against women is depicted. I am not mad because the rape happened to Sansa instead of Jeyne Pool. And the way this scene was handled is not the same way that sexual violence & female oppression is handled in the books.
Jeyne is not a POV character, therefore the scene cannot be told from her POV. There ARE female POV characters, and their scenes are told from their POV’s. As a point of comparison, look at the Tyrion and Sansa chapters when the two of them are in the same place. When the scene is about Sansa, it goes to Sansa. Ser Boros beating Sansa is not told from Tyrion’s POV, as if the important thing about the event is how Tyrion is impacted by observing Sansa’s abuse. Ditto the wedding. Sansa being forced to wed is told from her POV, not Tyrion’s, which makes a really important statement about which of them is being the most negatively affected by the arrangement. Sansa’s abuse is seen from her own POV, not that of a male observer.
GRRM handles sexual violence in a responsible manner. He doesn’t dwell on it salaciously, and he always depicts it as a sign that things are going terribly wrong. It’s not a plot device, it’s a horrible consequence of law and order going out the window.
Even though Jeyne’s repeated sexual abuse is seen through Reek’s POV, Jeyne herself is respected and taken seriously. Her abuse has severe consequences to her mental health, it’s not a cheap catalyst that inspires her to become a stronger person. Even though Reek is her observer, her suffering is described in terms of what has happened to her, not in terms of how poor Reek has to observe this awfulness.
And, importantly, Reek does not rescue Jeyne. Their escape is arranged by a group of spearwives. In fact Reek lands on Jeyne after they jump and cracks some of her ribs, which highlights how Jeyne’s situation has victimized and hurt Jeyne more than Reek.
Jeyne’s suffering is not a plot point. It doesn’t inspire anyone to be a stronger person. It’s just really shitty, a horrible consequence of letting men with no conscience run things. And it has its own consequences, as it slowly destroys Jeyne.
mau,
I don’t agree with the whole article, but I think the emotion she’s referring to is specifically her connection with Jaime (and the possible dilemma she has to face as a result). Which is, in my humble opinion, exactly where Brienne and Jaime’s storylines will be circling back to, in some way. Not sure about the rest of it, but that part was a fairly reasonable prediction.
Mistakes and bad decisions are an expected part of any dramatic story. But they’re not all created equal, and the mistakes, etc. under discussion here (even assuming the show wants us to regard them as mistakes, which is not clear in many cases — for instance, I’m pretty sure we’re just not meant to wonder how Sansa could have allowed herself to travel several hundred miles without realizing where they’re going, even though they’re on a road that, past a certain point, could really only be taking them one place) are of such a character as to completely remove any sense of character progression. And yes, while nothing is totally linear, there is such a thing as progression. Arya is, by this point, a far more proficient commando than she was in season one. Sansa is meant to be far more experienced and perceptive, and the show even altered the story to give her far more leverage and security than the book character has ever had, but is then required to engage in not just one but a series of behaviours that no person with half a brain would ever do. And the show wants the audience to believe that this is Sansa “playing the game” and really asserting herself and show what she’s learned.
If being a player means making decisions than almost every character is a player.
When you, and many others, speak about “Sansa learning to play the game”, you always speak about manipulations, lying, schemes,…
When she encounters some northern lord next season, that lord will kneel before her, because she is a Stark, and she will realize a power she has with that name (that will further her “re-starksation” arc), so no manipulations, no lies, just truth, love and loyalty.
In the books she is with LF, she can’t have any contact with the lords from the North, so I really can’t see that she realistically can be anything else than a puppet in LF’s master plan.
Yes, I’m referring to that scene and I don’t know how such behavior can be described as appropriate, no mater what mistake Ned made.
Occasional mentions are not big a part of her story.
Help us understand how MALE directors, writers,… can’t have a sympathy for a human suffering?
I really find your comment offending.
And Jeyne Poole is a plot device!
Being a player doesn’t mean making decisions, it means engaging in politics. Hence, the game of thrones.
Sansa already realized her name had power (indeed, Season 5 only really makes sense if the show version is an idiot who considers her name some kind of magic shield that would defeat her enemies on its own without her doing anything). Manipulation, etc. is part of playing the game, even in the North. Politics there is not just about “truth, love and loyalty”, though all of those things can be found there. We see the internal politics of the North throughout the story, and playing the game means conciliating people, balancing interests, reaching out to potential allies, being strategic in the use of information, etc. Robb has to manage each of his bannermen as individuals with their own interests, it is not just about people kneeling to you. Schemes tend to come up in discussions of Sansa’s evolution because of the environment she’s tended to be in, which emphasizes certain aspects of politics over others.
I don’t know what you mean by appropriate. It’s ordinary child behaviour, and entirely understandable in the circumstances, hardly her being “a bitch” to her father in some manner she needs to atone for.
It’s not occasional, it’s a recurring theme, particularly at moments of dramatic importance.
JCDavis,
Our boat is so awesome. 😀
That is too broad definition. In GRRM’s books is clearly stated that not everyone in politics is a player.
For Tywin, for Roose, not for hirself. She never felt loyalty from the North, not before S5. And she will feel that even more in S6.
Manipulation won’t be part of Sansa’s storyline, because Umbers or whatever are loyal to the Stark. manipulation won’t be needed.
Sansa in the show won’t do that, and Sansa in the books can’t do that. It is too late in this story for that sort of “agency” from her.
If you are a spoiled child, then yes.
It is occasional, because it doesn’t serve any purpose in the story.
It is just like when she thinks about lemon cakes and the Hound. GRRM need to write something in her chapters after all, because after 5 books she didn’t affect a story in any important way.
And “themes” became a thing with GRRM when he stoped caring for the plot.
1. Your suggestion that male creators are biologically incapable of understanding female suffering is offensive. You also immediately contradict yourself by praising GRRM’s “responsible” treatment of sexual violence in ASOIAF, suggesting that a penis is not, in fact, an insurmountable obstacle in creators’ sensitive treatment of sexual violence against women as you imply.
2. You clearly haven’t read the series if you can claim that its author, who depicted a woman falling in love with her rapist–one of the most misogynistic tropes in fiction–and suggested in interviews that this is a great love story, treats sexual violence responsibly.
Fans who praise the books’ treatment of sexual violence as a basis for whining about Sansa’s rape being “insanely problematic” need to STFU and reread the books.
GRRM would disagree with you, then, given that he’s talked about Sansa’s story in the terms of learning to be a player, and has put her in an environment where she has to learn to do those kinds of things in order to accomplish anything.
Also not true. She very pointedly and skillfully used her name as power in her dealings with the Vale lords in Season 4, securing herself valuable allies that she then immediately forgot about because it would get in the way of sending her to be Ramsay’s rape-slave.
How many 13-year-old children, on being offered a Dora the Explorer doll as putative compensation for their father running over their dog with his car, would react much differently than that?
No, it serves a very obvious purpose, that being, Sansa’s psychological and character development. And “occasional” means the frequency with which a thing occurs.
Uh, okay, sure. If that’s really what you think about Sansa’s chapters, you have a very skewed view of them (and GRRM’s writing in general).
Blind Beth,
I just love it when someone who does not agree with the opinion of other people on something goes the route of attempting to insult those people by claiming they lack understanding, because if they really understood it, their view would be different.
JCDavis,
No need for thanks, but you’re certainly welcome. I likely would not have even responded since, yes, this has been debated to death, there were already some great responses, and at this point I really doubt anyone is going to change their view. However, I’d just read the passage I quoted from the books last night, and I literally thought to myself, wow, I’m glad they didn’t go that far with it in the show.
I don’t care what he speaks, I care what he writes.
That won’t be the first time that his statements are in contradiction with his books.
She didn’t forget anything, she didn’t know that they will leave the Vale.
Every polite child?
Character development for the sake of character development is a bad writing if you are not able to develop character while they are doing something.
But that is the problem with GRRM’s writing, he don’t know how to create a plot for character development, so he puts his characters in isolation(Arya, Deny, Sansa,…), where they can “develop” independently from the plot.
And that is why he will never finish this story. He lost his plot.
Pigeon and JCDavis
I like boats. Boats are good.
You know what else I like? The video circulating of NCW doing pull ups at a gym in Belfast. I like that a lot. He is really working out hard this year.
Maybe this weekend the cast in Belfast will go out and get drunk and spill some secrets in the loo to a stranger. Or something. I have hopes.
Completely wrong. The equivalent would be if a modern Ned complied with a city order to have her dog put down and bought her a doll (they don’t have dolls in the modern world?).
She allowed herself to be taken away in the sole custody of Littlefinger and his guards, completely negating the value of the allies she had obtained, and upon learning that he had lied to her, she took no further action and blissfully waited for answers while they traveled hundreds of miles. She most definitely forgot quite a lot, there.
How much experience with children do you have?
The development of the characters is central to the plot. As far as isolation goes, in the case of Arya and Sansa I assume you mean AFFC/ADWD; that’s certainly a bit of a lull period for them compared to earlier books, as a consequence of the loss of the five-year-gap, but the point of those periods is that the characters have some stability and comparative peace to really focus on skills development. In Sansa’s case, for instance, being a powerless and tormented hostage is not an environment to really develop skill at game-playing, seeing as she couldn’t do that in King’s Landing (and, in the show, in Winterfell).
I’m not really sure what you mean with Dany, unless you mean her general presence in Essos. Dany’s rise from pawn to queen with a huge army and learning about the difficulties of ruling is her whole plot, not some isolating experience from it. Or if you mean her apparent Dothraki sojourn, that is most definitely not divorced from the plot; Dany’s becoming the ruler of the Dothraki has been foreshadowed since the first book.
The power relations are certainly a bit harder to translate, but sure, you could argue that. Regardless, it’s obvious why a kid would feel angry at their parent about that. Though your suggested alteration is actually a good example of Ned’s bigger issue, namely, his complete failure to actually parent Sansa in King’s Landing and work through what actually happened.
I used “Dora the Explorer” as an example of an obviously inappropriate toy for the age bracket. It’s a bit difficult to strictly compare the age issue, because Sansa is obviously still a child in her mental state, but within her culture (as presented by GRRM) she is engaged to be married and considered on the verge of adulthood, and thinks of herself in those terms.
She said at the end of S4that she trusts him more than lords from the Vale.
Much more than you, it seems.
If they are part of the plot. You could cut Sansa and ererything would be the same.
And that is a problem. As I said, he doesn’t know how to create a plotwhere Sansa and Arya won’t be in isolation but will still develop as a characters.He can use that trick with one character, but he is using it for everyone.
Sam, Arya, Dany, Bran,…
GRRM turned his plot in the compilation of isolated stories, and now he don’t even know what the plot is.
But she doesn’t need to develop skill at game-playing, that is not her character. You misread her character and you are forcing your own view to the show for no reason.
She developed, but not in the directions you would like. You should learn to accept than story belongs to writers and direction of character development is theirs to choose.
To queen of Westeros, not Meereen.
A mentally disabled child of 11 (or 13, as in the show) incapable of understanding the meaning of government and a government order would be angry and incapable of responding appropriately, but any child of average or even low-average intelligence? No. Sansa’s not particularly intelligent, but come on, let’s give her some credit.
A doll would be considered an age-inappropriate gift for a 13-year-old girl these days (unless she was into collectible action figures, I guess).
The problem is her inpolite reaction, not that gift was age-inappropriate
M,
Like I said, it’s hard to translate the situation, given the way government worked, and the fact that Ned actually killed her himself, as well as the general screwiness of the whole process that lead to Lady’s death.
mau,
Very few children would be polite in that circumstance. And when children are experiencing real emotional trauma, I don’t know why you think politeness is the top consideration, or why that’s such a grievous sin that it needs to be accounted as some sign of her being insufficiently Stark (itself a dubious notion, since there is no perfection of Stark-ness anyway; there have been Starks of all kinds throughout history, and Ned himself, from the sound of it, isn’t much like many of the great Stark rulers of old).
M,
Males aren’t biologically incapable of understanding females. It’s a problem with the culture of patriarchy. A group of guys making decisions without any real input from women, over an extended period of time, are going to lose touch with the female perspective. Ditto females/male perspective, I suppose, though I can’t think of an example.
GRRM co-wrote a novel with a woman. His editor is a woman. He’s had female input in his creative process for a long time. Which is probably why he’s better at this female-perspective stuff than the all-dude lineup helming GoT.
In what circumstance? When someone who cares about you brings you a gift you dont like, a normal person would act like her?
Please.
mau,
The circumstance where a person who the child holds partially responsible for a really significant trauma brings them a gift that is meant to be some sort of conciliation, but is actually insultingly inappropriate both to the person and the situation, and indicates he has no real understanding of her.
That’s pretty much exactly the reaction I would expect Ned to get from most children in that circumstance.
I *don’t* understand. Is kind of my point. It frustrates me. Yet it is clearly the case. At least, it’s the case that D&D et. al were clearly unable to really see this situation from the perspective of a woman. Because they present a woman’s abuse as something done to a man.
You can certainly argue that Jeyne’s presence in the story serves mainly to drive the plot forward. I don’t see it that way, but it’s pretty subjective I guess.
But her abuse is hers, not Reek’s, and it serves mainly to drive her own character development. Her rape is not a plot catalyst.
Sean C.,
I knew you are a Sansa’s fanboy, but I didn’t know you would go this far.
Nonsense.
Character development of Jeyne Pool?!
*preens* I know, right? 😉 I do think by now we have a fleet, but who is counting.
And I DO agree that there should be a “like” button. It is much easier than making a post to just say I agree, I liked what you wrote or thank you. *hint hint*
Wait, who do you mean here?
Sam the Slayer,
Dany and Drogo.
HotPinkLipstick,
From your lips……a gal can hope.
I guess I have to troll the internet looking for that pull up vid now. 🙂
And indeed, boats are great. Know what else is great? Quartets…better is a whole dang choir. Put on your virtual best voice and join in.
You know what is good??? Pigeon not scaring the poochies out of me with her avatar!! 😛
mau,
So I take it you don’t think most children would act that way in those circumstances? People in general are not in their best state when they’ve undergone traumatic experiences, let alone kids (or teens, as Sansa is approaching being in the show). Ned’s approach is well-intentioned but pretty much completely misjudged, and it gets the response you would expect from pretty much any kid in that situation. When Ned tried to reach out to Arya, he didn’t just offer her a doll (or doll equivalent).
In general, I find it puzzling that you think this scene is so significant so as to make her a “bitch” toward her father and need to atone for her insufficient Stark-ness (which, again, Ned himself appears to be rather an outlier among the Starks anyway, from what we know about the historical ones).
mau,
Oh. Yeah. Yeah, that relationship has always been odd. Never really understood that in both the books and the show.
Dornish Pastie,
Word of mouth. But it’s a friend who is working on the series so cant mention any names. Luke Roberts has been in training for weeks and was joined last week by Eddie Eyre and Rob Aramayo
You seem to be assuming that a “female perspective”–meaning a vagina, I guess?–automatically produces less sexist, less “problematic” material, and conversely that enough guys without the moderating presence of a vagina will automatically produce more sexist, more “problematic” material over time, and the more vaginas, the greater the offsetting effect. That’s just not true. Some of the most notoriously “problematic” material is created by women. A lot of fictional media created mostly or even solely by women gleefully and deliberately peddles misogynist tripe. Some of the most feminist, Tumblr-approved material is created solely by men; Elementary, praised for its enlightened take on gender (and genderswapping Moriarty to great acclaim), had two male showrunners last time I checked. Your argument is essentialist garbage. Creators are more than their anatomy.
If there’s a sexism problem at GOT, it’s not because the creators involved are men, it’s because the creators involved are sexists, and female and male creators are equal-opportunity offenders in the sexism department.
Sean C.,
That incident happened weeks after the death of direwolf, and she was responsible for that as well. That was the first betrayal of her family.
JCDavis,
A ‘like’ button would be great, but I do think that a ‘dislike’ button maybe not so much, the threads tend to go from calm to chaos pretty quickly, so keep the positive kudos and all that….not that we’re getting any buttons, it would probably be more trouble than it’s worth and not high on priorities. But I could maybe get some buttons printed and stick them on my shirt and then change my gravatar, and……..never mind.
HotPinkLipstick,
It’s funny – twice now in the past few months I’ve taken up a real concern for men’s fitness. I went so far as to buy Men’s Fitness magazine both times, just to get a better general understanding of the importance of diet and exercise on the male side of the spectrum.
Coincidentally, it was Nicolaj Coster-Waldau and Henry Cavill on the covers, but that’s pure coincidence.
M,
Just to add to your argument, Michelle MacLaren, a woman, directed the Craster rape scene.
Hamza Eric,
This Luke Roberts?
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm745964544/nm1074361?ref_=nm_ov_ph
😀 Intriguing
M,
I mean basically if I could just have a disembodied vagina running the show, I feel like I could be pretty happy.
Little known fact: female creators do not actually speak with our mouths, we lift one leg and speak with our vaginas. I am in fact typing with my vagina right at this very moment. It’s tricky, but that’s what I had to do to become an empowered woman.
The length of time really doesn’t enter into it. It’s a deep wound (deeper than she realizes, perhaps, since Lady was actually spiritually connected to her in a way nobody realized), and still very much on her mind.
As to responsibility, that’s a thorny question, but she obviously made a questionable choice under pressure (though the show explicitly had Ned make a rather cogent defence of the situation, you’ll recall). The primary responsibility for that lies with Cersei, Robert, and Joffrey, among others. And all that goes back to what I remarked earlier, that Ned completely fails to actually parent her and talk about the real problems that went down (whereas with Arya he does a really good job).
Why yes, yes she did. And it was chilling and powerful and I had no problem with it. It served to display the suffering of Craster’s wives, so that we were not able to take their horrible situation lightly. We understood, not only their physical and sexual abuse, but the degree to which they had been mentally subjugated with fear and dogma.
Most importantly, their abuse was not presented as something being done to a man.
It’s “clearly the case” in your opinion, and “they present a woman’s abuse as something done to a man” again, in your opinion.
You seem to have trouble differentiating between opinion and fact. When you state “present a woman’s abuse as something done to a man, that is your interpretation, which is subjective, therefore opinion and not fact. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but please, stop presenting it as fact, and again, dismissing the opinions of other who do not agree with you as stemming from some sort of lack of understanding. Perhaps if you studied a bit about various techniques of film-making, it would broaden your understanding. Given how dug in your heels are, I sort of doubt it, and that’s your prerogative, but some view how they filmed that scene as purposefully leaving what was happening to the imagination of the viewer. By virtue of choosing to cut away after her dress was ripped and she was bent over (thus intentionally not showing what was happening, and quite frankly, I’m glad they chose not to show it), and cutting to Theon’s reaction, the audience is forced to fill in the blanks as to what he’s seeing. It doesn’t make it about Theon, imo, it forces us to think about what is happening to Sansa. It’s a classic film technique, and one I think is very effective. This, of course, is just my take on it.
That’s not on him, completely. Sansa was very much her mother’s daughter and generally rejected Ned’s attempts at communicating, whereas Arya was the one who looked to him as a hero (Catelyn not particularily approving of her tomboyish behaviour) and would run to him for help and advice. In a way, if anyone was a failure as a parent, it would be Catelyn – although I don’t think that term really applies to either.
The power of suggestion is a technique used to enhance horror. The viewer doesn’t witness what’s being done, but the screams and Theon’s reaction force the viewer’s mind to fill in the blanks. As a result, the viewer has a reaction to the rape that’s just as powerful even though nothing is actually shown. This also has the added benefit of sparing Sophie Turner from having to act out a graphic and brutal rape beyond screaming her lungs out.
Panning to Theon’s face was used as a device to intensify Sansa’s suffering without forcing Sophie Turner to act out being raped (beyond screaming), not to make Sansa’s suffering about him. Sansa’s abuse was not presented as “being done to a man”; rather, Theon’s reaction was used to present Sansa’s abuse. He showed us what Sansa couldn’t (due to issues of legality and not wanting an underage actress have to act that out).
As for the Michelle Maclaren rape scene, again, you seem to be coming back to this assumption that “because a woman did it, it’s not problematic.” It’s hard to have an intelligent discussion with someone who holds such beliefs.
I also find your assumption that GRRM’s wife and editor somehow make his writing less problematic a little quaint, particularly given ASOIAF’s content, which is very problematic, and the ADWD marked-up manuscript suggesting that GRRM ignores his editor. Vaginas =/= feminist content. Read (reread?) Twilight if you don’t believe me.
Blind Beth,
You do realize that you’re talking about a scene in which Craster’s wives are being raped and abused by Night’s Watchmen as little more than to provide background noise, right? That’s ‘powerful’ and shows their suffering because otherwise we wouldn’t be aware of it? Nah.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
*presses the Like button repeatedly*
BOOM…and you my friend, just won the internet today!! I would curtsey to you but things might start falling off, so I will bow instead.
Thanks for the heads-up that you’re completely incapable of reasoned argument on this topic and have no ability to respond to my points. Good to know!
I also seem to recall the attempted gang rape of Sansa being written by a woman (Vanessa Taylor), as well as the scene where Joffrey abuses Ros and another prostitute. But please, tell me more about how a “female perspective” automatically makes for less problematic material.
We don’t see Ned making any attempt at addressing the problem — indeed, he doesn’t really seem to realize there even is a problem, since he never spares a single thought about Sansa’s testimony at the trial and that it suggests she needs guidance, which it is his job to provide.
I’m not sure how Catelyn could have failed in dealing with Sansa’s situation in KL when she wasn’t there.
For the record, Sophie wasn’t underage when they filmed that — and when she was underage they wrote her a pretty harrowing attempted rape scene that wasn’t in the books (in the books it was just a couple of people in the mob trying to pull her off her horse), so I don’t think that was a consideration for them.
Sean C.,
True, I was generalizing. I feel that Arya asked for and was given skills from by Ned and Jon (ex. upon finding her penchant for swordplay, Ned arranged lessons with Syrio – while being snickered at by the more ‘genteel’ girls, Arya was being trained to defend herself and survive multiple times over the years because of it). Whereas Sansa – well, sewing and wanting to be married to a prince and have babies are all perfectly fine goals…just not, as it turns out, particularly helpful in a time of war. While neither daughter has had an easy time of it, I feel as though Sansa does not have the wherewithal to make it to the end. I don’t think Ned failed to prepare her for unstable times, I feel as though Catelyn ‘failed’ by letting her continue in her fantasy world.
Even I if we all would agree with you on that, that was only one scene. We see Sansa after the abuse. We see her fear, we her injuries, we see her abhorrence towards Ramsay and most importantly imo we see her not break from it. She finds the strenght in herself to stand up to Myranda, even in the prospect of death. Not only that. In all this horror Sansa brings Theon back from Reek and (very likely) escapes with him. The abuse was not about Theon, at least not for the most part. It was about Sansa understanding how strong she really is, she is no longer “A stupid little girl with stupid dreams, who never learns.” if she ever was.
Abyss,
Correction: Not death of course, but serious injury.
M,
Don’t be a sourpuss, M. You literally put “vagina” on her keyboard in your previous comment, instead of just asking what exactly, specifically, she considers the “female perspective”. It may not come only from different genitalia. It may come for culture, different stereotypes we are dealing with because of different genitalia etc. Who knows what the hell she means. Maybe are brains are wired differently at birth. I don’t know but she obviously thinks different than you and I assume you are a man.
And I don’t think all women have the same perspective either (fyi). I was just reading out of curiosity to see what other women think about us.
Regardless, Blid Beth gave you a perfectly hilarious and on par response to your very snarky comment.
Pigeon,
Ned didn’t approve of Arya sword training at first, though, and he gave it to her as a form of therapy, basically, not because he expected she’d ever have to use those skills.
I agree that the girls’ education regimen doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, but we see Ned’s thoughts quite clearly in terms of what he wants from his daughters, and he expects obedient young ladies who know all the requisite courtesies, do what they’re told, and will marry who he tells them to. The whole reason Arya was taken to KL in the first place was because Ned thought it would be a good place to improve her manners, etc. (a really contrived justification to get Arya to the city, when you think about it), and he tells her to her face that Septa Mordane has been given “the impossible task” of making Arya a lady. He only starts to adjust his ideas toward the very end, and even then not all that far.
Likewise, Ned was every bit as willing to let Sansa live in a fantasy world (until the very last minute, when it’s way too late). It all happened under his watch, after all, and when Mordane brings Sansa to the throne room in AGOT to watch court proceedings Ned is horrified. He never makes any effort to teach her about politics, etc.
How does she stand up to Myranda? She quietly waits there for Myranda to decide where she’s going to maim her, having been sarcastically told that Myranda isn’t going to give Sansa the death she’d prefer, but rather a lifetime of rape and maiming (allowing Myranda to throw Sansa’s earlier insult right back at her). That scene shows Sansa utterly defeated, even by one of Ramsay’s minions. And it does that so that Theon can rescue her, because that’s why Sansa is there, to be rescued by Theon.
Bringing Theon back is also something that happens unintentionally on Sansa’s part. Sansa makes a single overture by begging for his help, but both before and after that all she does is tell him how much she hates him, with no agenda beyond that. It’s not any different from other times she has unintentionally influenced people to help her (e.g., the Hound).
Interesting……… If Luke Roberts is playing Dayne, who is Eddie Eyre playing? Also Rob Aramayo is, and looks, quite young. All three training hard for sword-fighting…..
http://www.wyke.ac.uk/about-wyke/in-the-spotlight/rob-aramayo-cast-in-hbo-drama
She shows no fear and don’t gives her the satisfaction of begging for her life. That is pretty much all she can do, if you think “that scene shows Sansa utterly defeated” I have to disagree with you. What would you do if someone pointed a deadly weapon at you and clearly knows how to use it and you yourself have no fighting skills? Attacking this persons would be a stupid thing to do, unless you absolutly have to.
You can just as easily say that Theon is there to be rescued by Sansa.
“Your name is Theon Greyjoy, last surviving son of Balon Greyjoy, lord of the Iron Islands. Do you hear me?” doesn’t sound like something that was said by her unintentionally… But even if it was it doesn’t matter, she still saves Theon.
Those are all fair points, agreed.
Myranda never asked her to beg for her life, all she did was order her back to her quarters, and glibly inform her that she’s going to be kept alive and raped and tortured indefinitely. Sansa just resigns herself to being gruesomely maimed. The use of the line from episode 506 is instructive there; that sort of ironic rejoinder is a standard writing signal about who has the upper hand. Sansa asserted in 506 that she was special and not like Myranda; Myranda gets to throw that right back in her face, after the course of events have shown that Sansa was completely deluded.
Which didn’t work, at which point she gave up and went back to her earlier practice of telling him how much she hates him and wants to torture him. Theon’s decision to save her is ultimately motivated mainly by his own gradually developing empathy, not by any deliberate action by Sansa, who in the final confrontation isn’t even acknowledging that he’s there.
How does that matter? I consider myself pretty tuff when it comes to enduring pain, but I going to tell here and now that if someone points a deadly weapon at me and tells me that he/she might hurt me with it (regardless, if that’s true or not) and I have no way to properly defend myself, I will probably beg him/her not to do it, no need to ask me for that (especially if that someone seems to be crazy and has threatened me before).
Are you sure? I mean it didn’t work right away, that’s true, but do you really think these words didn’t stuck with Theon just a little bit? I certainly do.
What ever the case, you are free to have your opinion of course, but you can not present it as fact, the avidance to support that is simply not there.
Abyss,
I’m sure it was one thing, but a single attempt on Sansa’s part which she abandons immediately afterward (it’s literally the only non-hostile interaction she has with him all season until after he saves her, and in that scene she’s still accusing him of being a traitor) is no great tribute to Sansa’s skills. The preponderance of Theon’s development is through unintentional means.
As far as her reaction to Myranda, Sansa herself states she’d rather die right there than go back and be tortured and die later (hardly an unusual reaction for people in the situation she’s in), so begging to be kept alive would be contrary to her desire — indeed, she gets a look of despair as soon as Myranda makes clear she’s not going to be killed any time soon, and stands there waiting for Myranda to decide where she wants to maim her, thoroughly defeated.
Sean C.,
I see that we will never come to an agreement on that… I will never understand way some people want to see Sansa as weak at all costs, when she acted so brave last season (and also before) on many occasions… She is a teenge girl with no fighting trainnig, not Briennes little sister. She handeled the situation she was in Winterfall as best she could and I really can not see how she could have done much better. – Just curious, what should Sansa have done in your opinion? – And remember, she isn’t a fighter, not a master strategist and not a freaking Red Priestess of R’hllor, just a young girl, who has to deal with a powerful psychopath husband, who rapes her every night.
Abyss,
Well, for starters, not got to Winterfell, as that’s a ridiculous notion (it doesn’t merit being called a “plan”) that only an utter fool would agree to. That manner of bravery is better described as idiocy, and requires her to be utterly deluded to a degree she wasn’t even in Season 1 (where she’d have had the intelligence to be too scared to go there).
Once she has willingly waltzed into Winterfell to be the Boltons’ hostage, her options are indeed quite limited, logically speaking — but logically speaking, she would never have agreed to go there (amongst the many, many other plotting problems with that story which don’t stand up to a moment’s scrutiny). And even the few limited options available, such as trying to charm Ramsay like Littlefinger said she should or sounding out the locals to gauge what kind of support she has, she does not do, preferring to sit around sulking, as if she’s under the impression that posing in her kewl dress will defeat the Boltons.
Sean C.,
Whatever you might think of it, she is in Winterfell, that’s done.
And sorry, are we really going to go down the “Why did the virgin not try to charm the psychopath?(!)- road again? A psychopath that brutally rapes her at that? Sorry, but that is not an option. And Sansa did try to get the support of the locals of cause, that was what the candle was all about.
I think that’s it from me for today, have a good one.
Hamza Eric,
We’ve had trolls here (and at WiC in the past) show up and make claims about spoilers/casting in the past so it would make me feel a lot better if you would at least verify some of this somehow with me in private. I understand you don’t want to expose people but we don’t want to spread wrong info.
And the fact that she’s in Winterfell makes her an idiot.
I was referring to before the wedding, when she was sitting around sulking (episodes 3-5 and early 6), rather than doing anything. She does not attempt to charm Ramsay, which is what Littlefinger explicitly said she should do (and if she has no idea how to do that, again, why is she there?); indeed, the only scene we see with them prior to the wedding is her sitting around glowering at him and making it perfectly clear she doesn’t like him; and she does not attempt to scope out what kind of support might be there, as the old lady approaches her out of the blue on her own initiative, and Sansa quite clearly makes no followup to this, even to ask the most basic questions.
Anyway, I’d say this discussion has run its course, so I’ll call it at that.
Sean C.,
It would not have mattered if she had tried to charm Ramsay before the weeding. A psychopath is a psychopath, never ever would someone like Sansa be able to deal with him that way. – And she didn’t know in what kind of danger she was until it was to late, not even LF knew (or so it seems), so she wasn’t prepared for it. You can blame LF for that, he is supposed to be a master strategist. The same goes for the old lady, Sansa simply didn’t kew how much she needed help at this point.
But yeah, I get your point (and disagree strongly with it) and the same goes for you. Let’s end that here. Have a nice weekend. 🙂
Hahaha. Wait, you’re actually serious. Hahahahaha.
Jesus. I wasn’t going to bother to reply to your nonsense, but I do have to thank you for all the laughs. Oh, the patriarchy. Talk about being a feminist cliche.
Also, you do realize they focused on Theon’s face in order to convey the horror of the moment without actually showing it, right? But that’s so logical, and I want to whine, so let’s whine about guys living in a guy world directing a show for guys, and they totes don’t get womiiiin.
Rob Aramayo looks more like a young Ned Stark than Sebastian Croft, but I guess he’ll be HR.
Pigeon,
Yup. That Luke Roberts. I’ve no idea how to verify the info Sue, but I trust my friend.
Deep wound for which Ned is not responsible. After that incident, she still admired Cersei and Joffrey, but Ned was a problem?
Sue the Fury,
To be fair, I told you about Eyre, I just can’t find tweets or anything to support anything regarding Roberts or Aramayo…
And in other news, most recent scenes filming in Belfast are Ramsay and an unknown girl
mau,
Don’t bother Mau, he will never undarstand. Just because Sansa’s character did not go the way he wanted, he will argue to no end, that they ”butchered” her character.
Don’t worry tough, when TWOW come out, and Harry rapes her and she will never play politics, but remain a tool of LF, we will be here, luaghing our asses off.
Same with all other changes.
What bothers me tough, and i suspect many other people. Is the tone of the conversation, if you don’t agree with their ”facts” then they act, as if you are not smart enough, to understand the ”complexity” of the book version, and if you like the show version, then you like things ”dumbed-down”, or you can’t see the ”plot-holes”
I personally can’t wait for TWOW to come out, and see them all trying to argue how much better it is then the show.
This is way off-topic tough, so i’ll stop right here.
She knew in E5 that Ramsay was a psychopath, so she had only E4 in which her only scene was with LF, because, believe it or not, Sansa is not the only character in this story and sometimes they can use her to develop other characters, just like they used Brienne to develop Jaime, because Theon, Roose, Ramsay and LF are as important as her and maybe even more. In the show.
In the books, she for some reason has a chapter, and I don’t know why, expert to serve as a camera for events in KL and the Vale.
Mihnea,
When there is no plot in GRRM’s books (4 and 5), they use “themes” as an excuse for a bad writer.
Putting your characters in isolation so they can “develop” means you failed as a writer.
So, somehow, character development and plots are completely different things?
D&D succeeded to put Sansa in important plot and to develop her in her arc of “re-starkisation”. If there is a political element in her development they will put that next season, where she is able to make alliances with lords from the North.
So that is how you structure your story effectively. Plots and character development at the same time, by putting right characters in the right places.
mau,
I find it curious that you have such a keen artistic eye for detecting so many subtle moments of character development in Sansa’s Season 5 story, yet dismiss Brienne’s entire AFFC story as “filler.”
red viper,
Thankyou, I’m here all week1 😛
Mihnea,
Still doesn’t sit right the randomness of LF having planned so meticulously to get Sansa out of KL and other people’s hands just throws her at the Boltons with so little information about them and Ramsay in particular. It’s not as if his psychopathic tendencies were particulary well hidden! I’m more forgiving of it now though as the story in Winterfell was pretty interesting/well done.
I think what they did last season was try to merge stories together a bit. Brienne and Sansa were thrown into the Northern storyline as having them do their own thing would have been hard to do and require the bedding in of many new characters who will ultimately fade away as the main ones rejoin the major storylines. Same with Jaime in Dorne and to some degree Sam at the Wall and Varys,Jorah and Tyrion. The only character they couldn’t really do this with was Bran as he’s so far away from the others which is why it made sense for him to take the season off. I expect the characters to get back in sync with their book counterparts next season and think Jaime and Brienne will find themselves in a similar situation as to the books. Sansa is the only one I’m confused about as from her extract from tWoW she still seems to be engaging in her novel of manners in the Vale!
Gatsby,
Because Sansa was in important place with important people.
Excpet LSH what did happen in Brienne’s chapters in terms of plot?
GRRM has a weak spot for travelogues, just like every fanatsy writer
TheTouchOfFrost,
My take on Sansa, in TWOW: She merries Harry, he won’t outright rape her, but he wont be gentle either. And then she will go with a Vale army to Winterfell, like LF does right now, in the show.
From there on, i’ve no clue
Yes, tbh, even though I haven’t read any of the books at all, just from that picture I thought Aramayo could make a good Reed. In that specific picture, he looks definitely like he could be Jojen’s dad, when young.
Blind Beth,
Jeyne Poole, character development? Allow me to laugh derisively.
What he said makes no sense! You needed a big enough space, but then that space you chose was too big so you filled it with stuff?
Well, with that kind of highly analytical thinking!!! the result is the sequence that we ended up seeing on screen! A miserable “fight” scene!
Those gardens were way overrated, they didnt bring anything to the show, they could have used any other location to stand in for a garden! Instead they went to a touristy and protected place like that, distracted themselves with the extra logistical issues, limited their time and overall messed up!
GOT is a good show but when it sucks, it sucks badly!
The fight scenes in season 1 were done the best! After that I dont know what happened and nothing theyve done felt right, with the exception of Hardhome and bits of battle at wall. Blackwater was bad! Really fake!
Mihnea,
Possibly. I think the Vale will head north at some point. Littlefinger is interesting as he (and to some degree Euron) are the only two characters that still haven’t revealed their end game. If they do head north and Stannis still has some representation there ( bookwise but who knows what’s happening show-wise…although I still have a very sneaky feeling that we may not have seen the last of him as far-etched as it might seem) plus Rickon’s northern/wilding forces. You’ve got the three main factions who toppled the Targ dynasty fighting amongst themselves for the North! Irony!
cosca,
If you do not agree, you clearly just don’t understand the material, and are incapable of appreciating/recognizing the responsibility and lack of salaciousness with which Martin handles sexual violence…
or something like that.