The TV families that play together, stay together, right? I sure hope so. Game of Thrones cast members are having fun on Instagram again when they’re in the same city, with the Stark kids sharing a few pics.
Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams, bringing the #Mophie:
Stark Family Time with Sophie, Maisie, and Isaac Hempstead Wright:
Isaac shared this photo of Dean-Charles Chapman today. Looks like all the the cast’s young people are together this week:
Lastly, another cast member shared a photo- Thor Bjornsson and new season 6 cast member Jóhannes Haukur Jóhannesson posed together in Belfast yesterday. It’s not known yet which role Jóhannes is playing, but we’re guessing Riverlands outlaw based on a few things. Though in Belfast at the same time, they may not be shooting together. It’s nice to have a photo of the show’s Icelandic cast members together though!
Light spoiler discussion ahead!
One of the most exciting developments of Game of Thrones season 6 has been learning the show would be depicting, in some form, the Tower of Joy. The tower story in the novels is a memory connected to one of the central questions of GoT. The tower is a significant memory for Ned Stark, and what’s especially intriguing about the show dealing with this portion of Westeros history is that it likely means we’ll see a younger form of Ned.
We followed the shooting of the scene at Zafra Castle in Spain, and the casting info as it surfaced at the time. It appears that Luke Roberts, Eddie Eyre, and Robert Aramayo have been cast in roles for the scene. A WotW reader reported all three were rehearsing a fight scene together weeks before Aramayo or Roberts were announced or officially confirmed as cast.
That’s where it gets interesting. Eyre’s CV initially stated that he was playing Ser Alfred Hunrith…but there is no character by that name in ASOIAF. There is a key character named Ser Arthur Dayne at the tower, but that’s as close as it gets.
And now Luke Roberts’ agency CV has been updated to reveal his role in Game of Thrones season 6. According to his resume, the actor is playing “Rowland Selwyn.”
There is no one by that name at the Tower of Joy in the novels. There was a man named Howland Reed, there with Ned Stark. “Selwyn” in ASOIAF is actually the first name of Brienne of Tarth’s father.
It appears that GoT has borrowed Selwyn’s name to create this new name (as I doubt this character has anything to do with Brienne). So is Roberts playing Howland Reed? Is the new name a permanent one or is it just a placeholder? GoT has never bothered with fake names on resumes before (not even for Iwan Rheon- “Boy” is all Ramsay was called by people in his scenes during his first season) but perhaps the show is doing so now.
At 6 feet tall, Roberts is hardly crannogman height but neither was Thomas Brodie Sangster at 5’10”.
Or Game of Thrones is just completely messing with us now when it comes to the fake names. We’ll find out in the spring.
Screencap of the puzzling CV entry:
Another pic of the young Starks with a fan.
https://instagram.com/p/9cAk5kw8mi/
Hodor! my first!!
… D’OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Thor Bjornsson is what, 6’9? And the guy with him isn’t that much shorter. Is there a special kind of Scandinavian people who just grow to be enormous?
They’ve already namedropped Selwyn Tarth in Season 2 or 3, would be silly to use it as a surname now when there are so many others out there. They’ve also established that Howland Reed was with Ned during the Rebellion.
I hope they don’t change any more names. Kinda pointless.
Can anybody make out who is the fourth person in the first pic?
I’m also reading “Various” under directors… You’re telling me that the ToJ scene will be split in different episodes?!
Or maybe, we’re getting Ashara’s suicide as well!
Maybe it’s because they don’t have much sunlight. It works for plants. Just saying…
Mhysa7,
You really can’t read much into that. I’ve seen “Various” under a lot of people’s Director slot and it’s usually because they didn’t know who the director was.
I’m so confused with these names right now.
WHAT THE HELL. ISSAC LOOKS OVER 6 FT!!!!
red viper,
Sorry
I still think that Robert Aramayo looks like Jojen, so if any of the ToJ cast (that we are aware of) is going to be Howland Reed, it will be him.
That Thor guy would make a perfect Rorge.
BeautyBrinne,
Newbietothegame,
I had my DNA tested a few years ago; aside from being 40+% Irish (no surprise), turns out I’m 28% Scandinavian. Which is interesting, as my dad is 6’6″, and I’m just shy of 6′ myself– and I’m a girl. I’ve known several other Scandinavian people over the years, and they were relatively taller as well, so there must be something in those ancient Viking genes. 😀
Oh now wouldn’t that be something? To have Selwyn Tarth as present at the ToJ.
Not that I think it will happen, but what an interesting twist idea.
They haven’t landed on an age for Brienne in the show, but in the books she’s 18-19. In the show, I’m assuming mid-20s, but looking older because of the ugly. Tarth seemed no where during Robert’s Rebellion, but it is part of the Stormlands.
The whole idea, while most likely ridiculous, is really intriguing. So much more interesting than fire-proof v. fire-resistant or “agency!”
Bearded Onion,
Notice how Maisie is standing on tiptoes next to those three giants.
Cute.
We rarely see Isaac hanging out with the girls, now that I think about it.
“Various” director entries often get whittled down to just one director when more information is added.
Looking at the name etymology for both of these names, Rowland means “renowned throughout the land”, and Selwyn means, “friend in the castle”. Probably they just picked random names, though………………….
Tywin of the Hill,
The Mountain’s actor would make a perfect Rorge?
I was hoping for Ian McShane’s character when reading the title 🙁
ghost of winterfell,
Looks like Lady Stoneheart, checking her cell phone.
BeautyBrinne,
They are called VIKINGS. 😀
Maybe Luke Roberts is playing young Ned? He looks like David Wenham who played Faramir,younger brother to Sean Bean´s Boromir in LOTR…Ah!! I don´t really know 🙁
I am curious who filmed with who…. Maise did some scenes with BWB?
Sansa?
Maybe they shoot some kind of dream with Bran and his sisters?
Any other actors there?
I don’t think any regural viewer would remember how Brienne’s dad is called, and they even made his name a surname… so they can say this surname is from anywhere in Westeros….but i agree this must be a cover name.
If those outlaws really are the Brotherhood without Banners than Lady Stoneheart is definetly out of the picture: Jóhannes Haukur Jóhannesson has never met Michelle Fairley: https://twitter.com/johanneshaukur/status/659106753217495041
Rowland = Howland!
I can definitely see production making up fake “Westerosi” names for a sequence as important and spoilery as
ghost of winterfell,
My first thought was that it looked kind of like Natalia Tena, but of course it could be anyone, including non-GoT actors. A parent, an agent, a crew member, a friend… who knows.
I wonder if they’re gonna mix Howland with Brienne’s daddy to have another angsty plot about dads, “the chosen/it’s fate” or something like that… Or to cut characters :/ I understand the point, but…
I’m sure these names are bogus. The TOJ scene is one of the most important ones in the series, so I’m sure they are doing everything they can to keep it under wraps.
The names for ToJ flashback actors are so obviously fake. Those scenes will already be a headache for the show when you consider the exposition necessary just to say who’s who; they won’t be adding new characters, much less houses.
I’m staunchly in the Eyre/TheNed//Aramayo/Reed//Roberts/Dayne camp, with an extra/Buckets hope.
Considering that this is potentially THE flashback of note, and that it may have spawned a huge in-story lie/fake name, it wouldn’t surprise me if fake names for this scene and this scene only were something of a production joke.
ghost of winterfell,
I think that is Isaac’s mum. She has a similar haircut.
hodor,
I thought he was the new actor for the outlaw leader. Isn’t his name Hafþór? Northern European names are driving me crazy.
Dragonslayer,
He could be lying.
Of course these are fake names. Howland Reed has already been name dropped and mentioned as
in the show. Arthur Dayne was also name dropped by Joffrey in season 4, and if you look at the close up of his page in the white book on the show, it is mentioned that he was
Lion of Night,
I don’t really see the point, since only book readers would have any sense of the significance of those names, and they already know about that sequence.
Maggie,
I don’t imagine they’re filming together, just that they were all in town for work purposes.
Crap, that one handsome dude 😀
That jaw line on Luke Roberts KINDA reminds me
Jojen’s
I tend to agree with the points made that these are likely names designed to throw us off the scent, although I don’t see the point as we all know what’s coming.
On another note- I saw the Eddie Eyres Twitter account mentioned that he’s done with GoT “for now”. Wonder if he’s been told he’ll be back next season?
Sean C.,
Whenever these actors were hired, I’m sure they hoped that all of the filming spoilers wouldn’t come out. Yes, we book readers know about the scene, but it is in the first book. I can absolutely see why they’d want to keep it secret now, as it basically confirms that Jon’s story isn’t over. You don’t actually believe that they changed Ned’s name to Alfred Hunrith? Or Arthur Dayne to Rowland Selwyn?
Yep, this.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah but you couldn’t pay 99.9999% of casual viewers to remember either of those references.
But I am leaning more toward the totally-fake-just-for-now names. And who says they’ll have time for introducing anyone by name during these vague vision-flashbacks.
Sean C.,
That is a valid point, but surely Ned Stark is a known name! Howland also already exists in the GoT universe, so it’s really just Dayne we should be discussing.
Of course I can’t speak for what D&D will end up doing, however the question I usually end up asking myself is: Why add/change if an existing solution already exists? We can agree or disagree on the validity of changes in the show on a personal basis, but changes are generally made for some reason. All of this to say, if Dayne’s name is changed *most likely* there is a reason for it. But given his relevance to one of the major asoiaf twists, I’d air on assuming his name remains the same.
they’re obviously using fake names for these characters since using the real ones would reveal spoilers.
Lion of Night,
Dayne was already named couple of times in the show.
The one I clearly remenber is Joffrey and Jaime in S4. It wasn’t a disscussion about him, but Joffrey did say his name.
So I think it’s preaty safe to say his name will be the same.
Something unsettling about The Mountain looking so jovial.
Dean is a cutie.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Totally forgot about that Dayne name drop! Thanks for the refresher.
Sue the Fury,
Agreed. I do think it usually makes sense to use already spoken names from a writing POV. I doubt casual viewers remember Benjen, but they also got the “last time on GoT” reference in 510 as a reminder. I suppose that was a case of a forgotten but useful character for motivating Jon to fall for the trap.
Huh? Should not be posting this on WotW then…
Did you get lost?
Bearded Onion,
Hodor is gonna have one heckuva time hauling him around!
But stil clear that roberts is playing Dayne NOT Howland. Aramayo is Howland and Eyre is young Ned.
This is just to confuses people.
But as we know Howland is in the ToJ flashback, he will be in the show in the present to confirm jon parents. And i hope Ian mackshane is not Howland because he is nothing like Aramayo or jojen. I want him to be Meribald and tell the “broked man” and interact with the hound.
🙂
Brett Baratheon,
Hope this is an honest mistake….
Sue the Fury,
It’s an interesting question, because truthfully while Arthur Dayne might be an intruiging character to some people in the books, particularly his sword, and his sister is a fairly obvious red herring…. he has literally one line of dialogue in ASoIaF and I believe she has none. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if they just left the Kingsguard at the tower nameless. They play no continuing role or relevance that has been revealed, it’s more an interesting bit of trivia.
Newbietothegame,
Probably just a troll, I mean, who seriously thinks winteriscoming is better? 😉
Good one. Made me chuckle.
Sullied by Knight,
He also looks exactly like Ned, so…
Aguero,
Meh. Armayo looks exactly like Ned (I mean, the face is just spot on), and the other two can both be Dayne.
Shockmesane,
They’ve already name dropped Arthur Dayne though. Talked about his nickname, talked about him with Jaime, talked about his accomplishments. Done in an invented scene not from the books too. So I don’t see the point of that scene if fast forward two seasons later when the time comes to actually use that character they make him nameless.
Isaac has short hair, that means their going to have him wearing that horrible wig again like in season 4.
jentario,
I don’t think so.
Mihnea,
It’s not an honest mistake, he’s a low-grade troll. Same person who was tweaking about Emilia spelling defense/defence the British way. Not interested in having trolls stick around so bye, dude.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
so cute…
Sue the Fury,
Oh, It’s him! Yeah definatly a troll.
There’s no way Robert Aramayo is anyone but Howland Reed. He’s a dead ringer for Thomas Brodie-Sangster.
And Luke Roberts has the whole dashing hero thing going on, so would be best suited to one of the Kingsguard I think, not a crannogman.
Me, too!!
doug,
I don’t know how much dialogue there will be during the Tower of Joy scenes, but I agree that they will surely establish the fact that one of the knights is Ser Arthur Dayne and that these are not just any old knights that Ned and co are fighting.
To leave them nameless and see Ned and co being all but bested by a few random knights would be rather odd.
They’ll have to make it obvious to the average viewer why Dayne and the other knights are such accomplished fighters and why they might be guarding the Tower of Joy, otherwise the scene surely wouldn’t carry the same weight that it will surely be intended to carry.
Selina,
No prob – I’ll get my Hodor in some day!!
Casting Compendium has been updated!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U9RWBql7YV3FMtOEqLw_pPDTKvNTDGxLrBP-6d_-F1g
Anguissette1979,
You added pictures! Really nice looking.
Keep up the good job!
Mihnea,
That was last Friday’s evening festivities 😉 I’m still missing a couple so if anyone has a lead, send them to me on twitter (@helencarnatenh) and I’ll make the update!
I love that they try to throw the fans by changing the name. I’d like to be a fly on the wall listening in to D&D trying to figure out how to hide the true names of certain characters.
Also wow that is a lot of beard in one photo. And the beards get progressively smaller left to right! I think it’s great the cast hangs out off screen. Seems like a good bunch of people all around! Mophie is the best!
I wish they went all out with the fake names and made them openly ridiculous, instead of plausibly deniable. I would love to see a casting notice indicate that Luke Roberts will be playing the role of Lord William Clinton on Game of Thrones.
If he is playing Arthur Dayne, I wonder how they’ll convey that information to the audience.
Reed: Look! It’s Arthur Dayne!
Ned: Who?
Reed: Arthur Dayne? Of House Dayne of Starfall?
Ned: Not ringing any bells…
Reed: Kingsguard to King Aerys?
Ned: Who’s that?
Reed: Whom they call the Mad King?
Ned: Aerys, right. THAT guy, I remember.
Reed: The finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms?
Ned: Ohhhhhh, Arthur DAYNE. Gotcha. Right…Well, we’re fucked.
Reed: Pretty much.
Is it necessary to say the names? In the end, does it matter what they are called or if they are addressed by name? It only matters that they are Kingsguard blocking Ned access to his sister. That is the what. The other important thing is the why. They could be Curly, Larry and Moe for all the effect it will have on the story or plot.
Hmm, one in a million. What are the rates of eidetic memories?
(I actually did not remember that those names were dropped: I probably catch it every year on my annual “binge” and promptly forget about it the next day.)
Fienix,
BeautyBrinne,
yup those Vikings!!! you must have been a Viking once before.
Scandinavians are known to be tall.
according to IMDB, the guy with Thor is 6’1…
I thought I held my own at just hitting 5’5 LOL
Fienix,
Lot’s of Viking blood in Ireland particularly around cities that they founded or ruled at various times in history like Dublin and Limerick (both of which some of my ancestors came from). They say red hair is probably from the Vikings and my family definitely has that.
I imagine Dayne will get a mention in a buildup to the fight scene, if we spend two scenes with young Ned and co. and not just jump into the fight.
It will be a serious version of this, with Dayne as the focal point. One member of the group will be seriously nonplussed that Dayne is there, and another will quiet him down before he can recite all Dayne’s legendary achievements and skill.
A much cheesier option would Bran and Bloodraven talking about things as they unfold.
jentario,
I definitely see Ned in the strong, squared jawline of Aramayo, but I lose it around the eyes and nose. 95% certain that he is playing Howland Reed. I think Eddie Eyre is Arthur Dayne and I don’t care who Luke Roberts is playing as long as he doesn’t wear a helmet so we can see his pretty face!
Anyone think we’ll see a Harrenhal flashback?
Every time I see Issac I can’t help but think – a future Doctor Who.
OT: Looks like grantland.com will go offline. Damn, a season of GoT is not the same without Andy Greenwald’s recaps. Best unsullied reviewer out there
Can anyone say, slow news day?
Those names are totally fake.
Dolorous Ned,
I agree. Pretty sad. ESPN will rue the day! How could they not give more support to Grantland? So many talented sports & pop culture writers there, and most of them started jumping ship before today because they knew the end was nigh.
So where is Art Parkinson?
Dolorous Ned,
Oh, man. That’s the worst. Andy wrote on twitter that he was planning on leaving Grantland next week anyway, though. Will miss his reviews and ‘Watch the Thrones.’
Newbietothegame,
😀 😀
I thought of Bran and Bloodraven acting as sports commentators briefing the audience on the big game. “And leading up the Kingsguard we have Arthur Dayne. Arthur Dayne’s been a real star player on the Kingsguard with a stellar record in the clutch and we can expect great things from him today. And over here we have Ned Stark who’s been doing great things this year with assists from Howland Reed…”
I’m thinking now of the East/West Bowl skit from Key and Peele with the player introductions: “Arthur Dayne. Kingsguard.”
…In all seriousness, I expect Bloodraven’s present in the scene to explain to Bran who’s who. “Who’s that?” “That’s Howland Reed.” “Jojen and Meera’s father?” “The same.” Blah blah blah.
You are little miss helpful, ain’t cha? Obviously you’re back to sleeping at night now. 🙂
Artur Dayne has already been named in the show when Joff talked with Jamie about how his acomplishments were lacking compared to other KG ….
No reason to change HIS name …
Howland Reed tough … maybe they WILL change his if they make him more of a fighter type character thean the anti-social nerdy lord he is in the books.
I really hope if they speak, they speak in the cave, and then are just silent onlookers if we see them on the field. It just takes me out of the swordfight if there’s an numinous being standing in the background.
Also I really hope these flashbacks let them dust off the Aerys the Mad King footage from the pilot.
Why? We don’t need to see a flashback for something we already heard the story for.
Chris Ryan had already left, so we knew we probably weren’t getting any new GOT podcasts from Grantland weeks ago.
My guess is that Greenwald will join Ryan at Bill Simmons’ new place at HBO, so we might still get them by next year. Fingers crossed.
Isaac looks like a young Jeff Goldblum.
And lol at Maisie standing on her toes.
It’s only a matter of time until that drunken experimental night happens for Mophie.
Season 6 is the season of the Neds.
Boy Ned
Play Ned
ToJ Ned
???
What ever became of poor Ned’s bones? Did Cat and Brienne take them back to Robb?
Will the Night’s King give us Vengeful Skeleton Ned at some point?
Luke roberts is Arthur Dayne, Eddie Eyre plays young Ned, this is old news. Check eddie’s hair on his twitter at the time and the leaked footage of toj.
Ore,
It’s quite possible those are their roles. But hair length is pretty irrelevant when Roberts could be wearing a wig in his role, and Reed and Dayne could have any hair length.
The leaked footage is very low quality from a distance, so that doesn’t help.
Basically we need GoT or these guys to tell us who they’re playing.
Who burned Summerhall?
Anguissette1979,
Wow…I haven’t checked in on that in a while. You’ve been busy. Thank you so much for all your work on this…it rocks! 🙂
FreeParking,
But if they move to HBO they couldn’t review the show anymore because they would be accused of bias . I’m not saying they wouldn’t be impartial,but you know how stupid some people are on the internet .
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
My pleasure! I added the photos last weekend and if anyone can think of other non-speculative info that would be helpful to reference please let me know. I keep it updated generally within about 12-24 hours of a casting post hitting here.
Fu Manchu,
I question the need to include Meera and Jojen if there is no payoff with Howland (whether they change the nature of his character or not). Dear D&D… please don’t leave me hanging. <3 Angie
Yeah, I am not sure how that would work out, but it is our best bet.
We honestly don’t know yet.. We know that Aegon V died in the fire and I think that Dunk as Thick As A Castlewall also died there.. It’s probably the big ending to Martin’s D&E Novella’s.. If he ever intends on finishing them all.. (I think he had 9 or 12 in mind(?) and has done 3 so far, with Winds and Dreams taking priority)
Anguissette1979,
They purpose were to bring Bran to his destination, wasn’t it?
Sue the Fury,
Search on google images “Eddie-Eyrie-Emmy”, it should appear a photo of him holding an emmy among the first batch, if that’s not the living image of Ned I don’t know what it is, keep in mind that the hairstyle doesn’t suit him so it should be work related (under contract or something). And while the face is not recognizable in the ToJ footage, the hair is. I’m not so sure about Luke Roberts, but I’m more concerned about the fact that Arthur Dayne looks to be wielding two swords, and unless those are Balckfyre and Darksister I don’t see the point of scrapping Dawn and that cool piece of lore for no reason other than props convenience.
I think it’s likely that Howland will reemerge in the present day, but it’s not a foregone conclusion that he will. Especially if his sole purpose is to reveal Jon’s parentage; the flashback will probably have already done that!
Aramayo – Young Howland Reed
Eyre- Young Ned Stark
Roberts – Arthur Dayne
im Pretty sure about that.
The thing i want so much to know is if the episodes will have more minutes. i can say season 6 is the one with most plots ever. Look at where every character is In right Now, and what we will have in season 6. ( i know some characters will no even appear where i put them, but was the last place they were in season 5) LOOK:
BEYOND THE WALL: Bran – 3 eyed Raven – Meera – Hodor -Children of the forest
BEYOND THE WALL: Night ´s King – White Walkers – The dead army
CASTLE BLACK/WALL: Alisser Thorn – Olly – Melissandre – Davos – Edd – Jon Snow-Others?
SOMEWHERE NORTH:Tormund – Wun Wun – Widlings
THE NORTH FORESTS: Brienne – Podrick
THE NORTH FORESTS: Sansa – Theon
WINTERFELL: Roose Bolton – Ramsay Bolton – Fat Walda – Baby – Others?
LAST HEARTH: Smaljon Umber – Rickon – Osha – Others?
NORTH HOUSES: Karstark – Mormont – Reed – Others?
THE TWINS?: Walder frey – Lothar Frey – Black Frey – Roslin Frey – Edmure Tully – Others? ( i think they will show the freys in the twins instead of just show they marching against riverrrun in episode 7-8)
RIVERRRUN: Blackfish – Spton Meribald – Others? ( as the twins i think they will show riverrun and blackfish instead os just show riverrun being sieged by freys)
SOMEWHERE: BWB – Others? Lsh?
SOMEWHERE: The Hound – others?
THE VALE: Yohn Royce – Robin Arryn -That old Lady – Others?
IRONS ISLAND: Euron Greyjoy – Yara Greyjoy – Baelon greyjoy – Aeron Greyjoy – Others?
KINGSLANDING: Cersei – Kevan – Tommen – Margaery – Loras -Olenna – Pycelle – Qyburn – The mountain – Highsparrow -Lancel – LitlleFinger – Others?
HORN HILL: Randyl Tarly – Melessa Tarly – Dickon Tarly – Tala Tarly
WAY TO OLDTOWN: Sam – Gylly – Baby – Others
DORNE: Doran martell – Aeroh Hotah – Elarya – Sand snakes
DORNE SHIP: Jaime – Myrcella – Bron – Trystane
BRAVOS: Arya – Jaquen ´Haghar – That Girl – Actors Group – Others?
MEEREN: Tyrion – Varys -Missandei – Greyworm – RedPriest – Others!
ESSOS: Jorah – Darioo
ESSOS: Dany – Dothrakis
Not mention the ´´pets´´, and we dont know if Genndry, Benjen are coming back.
I think every episode need 1 hour AT LEAST.
🙂
Rowland.. Row .. Land… Gendry was rowing.. Gendrys return
Laura,
I thought the young stunner was one of the non-leading actress theater ladies but I may have been wrong on that and not put “young stunner” back under uncast roles. I’ll find the original casting post and double check. Thanks for the heads up!
Anguissette1979,
The young stunner filmed in Belfast in August, not in Spain later, according to the casting call. So she’s not part of the theater troupe and yeah, might be Lyanna.
FreeParking,
Yeah, Chris, Andy, Mallory and Jason did a great GoT podcast. I know Chris and Mallory already joined Simmons at HBO, but hope Andy and Jason land on their feet, too. I’m sure Andy will. He’s pretty sought after as pop culture writers go.
The weird thing is that they’re eye-rhymes but probably wouldn’t actually rhyme. Rowland is usually just an alternate spelling of Roland, whereas everyone I’ve heard refer to Howland Reed aloud has said it How-land.
Aguero,
It looks like it. Howland saved Ned during Rebellion as Jojen said to Bran. Let’s hope they don’t change things.
Howland Reed will be there to confirm Jon’s parents. Let’s say that Jon was the kid born at TOJ and not someone else. Still a theory not a fact. Who would believe him without any proof? Jon? Hardly. You would need some proof and I doubt that Howland is carrying any of it. A lot people speculate about somethnig hidden in Lyanna’s statue, but what could it be? Rhaegar’s harp is hardly any proof. They would need some documents, but that’s the first thing Ned would destroy leaving no trace behind.
Al Swearengen,
…wow. And I thought I had a dirty mind.
Sue the Fury,
Such a good point. It can be a character in the present telling the story of the flashback scenes at toj. It can only be Howland Reed. The only one left alive. Doh ! I can’t believe I didn’t realize this before. Unless it is a Bran Stark vision through weirnet. In both cases characters names don’t need to be introduced especially if it’s a dreamy kind of flashback as opposed to a cersei/frogmaggie flashback.
Edit –> if it’s not a bran/weirnet flashback memory and if it’s a memory told by HReed himself then that explains why the actor could be signed in season 7 (he can be aged to play an older HR)
Kilgore Tully,
Couldn’t agree more !
Hariette Tuttle,
I always tought, and still think, that the audiance would be introduced to Dayne trough Jaime. Him telling someone about Dayne is my guess.
That’s, in my opinion, how they will tell us how badass/awesome he is.
Lemme guess: Robert Aramayo is playing Edwin Kerfuffle.
I seems very obvious: Arthur – Alfred, Rowland – Howland, Eddard – ??? (Edwin? 😉 ), then switch it around to not make it too obvious.
So Ned = Alfred, Arthur = Rowland, Howland = ???
Shockmesane,
Not if you plan to tell the story of RobErts Rebellion in full one day. Whether it is in books (grrm) or in film/series. You’ll need the Daynes…
Geralt of Rivia,
Unless Reed kept the document safe in the marshes. Lysnna if not Rheagar must have left something in writing.
M,
Don’t forget that we know that Bran and Bloodraven will be present for the ToJ scene.
Honestly I think the only reason for this choice is that they will provide clarification to the viewer as to who and what exactly we’re seeing during the ToJ flashback
Hariette Tuttle,
Vision or flashback can reveal it to the fans, but to convince some characters you’ll need more than that. I think that Ned would never leave any papers in case someone is sniffing around and questioning. It’s plausible that Lyanna asked him to keep it safe even from Jon himself for his own sake. Varys and his little birds, LF and who knows who else might be looking at this Ned Stark fathered a bastard. Many people were surprised by this, but since Ned and Cat were married not for a long time. He manage to get away with that.
They might never bring Howland to the show in present time and let someone else explaining it to Jon and others. But then who that might be?
Geralt of Rivia,
Who else indeed ? I think there is a strong possibility that Howland Reed is brought to the show in the present time. Now interestingly, the question remains the same if he speaks out. Who would believe Howland Reed ? What’s his word worth in Westeros ? Even if he had papers from Lyanna or Rheagar thre would always be another player saying it’s a fake…
Which brings us to another big picture question actually… what does GRRM has in store for the Jon Snow character ? His lineage might be revealed yes (we don’t know how or by whom) but it might never be acknowledged because of the reason you’re stating (it takes more than a flashback/memory) and also because this is a Game of Thrones : it would be unacceptable/ill-timed for a lot of players to legitimize Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen. I’m not saying there won’t be supporters, just that it won’t necessarily be a game changer (I wish it were though, but that sounds unlike GrrM).
Anguissette1979,
Excellent! Thank you so much, great job…
I’m not sure what “documents” such a society would have! They probably did not bother with foot casts or stuff like that: and even if they had, then that’s for id’ing infants, not the subsequent adults.
Ultimately, it is very possible that few people will actually accept that Jon is Rhaegar’s son. The big part will be for him to learn just what compromises of morality were done by Ned in order to safeguard him (Jon). Sometimes it is about protecting a realm, but sometimes it really is about protecting one little boy.
I can simply not imagine Howland starting to tell people that Jon is Rhaegars son. I simply can’t.
What I always tought would happen, is that Howland will tell Jon in private/alone, more to tell him of his mother, then about Rhaegar.
I was never one that belived this theory too have any political impact. I always tough this will have a impact only on Jon himself. More of a personal/intimate story/plot, rather then some political plot.
Cary Storm,
The peanut will sleep a whole 12 hours now! 😀
Sue the Fury,
Added the Young Stunner back in and started to add filming dates to both cast and uncast roles, if known. Will work on that more tonight once said peanut goes back to sleep and I’m done handing out candy.
Wimsey,
I meant some proof that Jon is legitimized and not just a bastard. I thought that he might be a bastard and still being a Targaryen bastard is relevant, but there is just some things suggest that he might not be a bastard. Rhaegar intended to change a few things in his last conversation with Jaime and who knows how far that goes. He possibly saw his daddy being a mad freak and wanted to put him out off IT or something else. Maybe it’s important only to convince Jon somehow and Daeny and rest will have to deal with it or there is some proof. But then I ask what that is?
Who would want to believe that? Maybe Daeny because she desperately wants to find a family and that’s it. It might be just about them. His appearance is nothing like a Targaryen we meet and there is Daeny 100% looking Targaryen with army and three big dragons. Targaryen supporters would rally to her side.
Hariette Tuttle,
There is literally no one else to do it apart from Howland Reed. It’s interesting to think about it. There are still many answers even after the reveal. Who would believe him and what is it good for?
It might be just about Jon or Daeny and to understand what Ned had to sacrifice for this to remain a secret as Wimsey said it. Ned said something in the books how he had to live 14 years in a lie and guess what. Jon was 14 years old. To find out about his mother and finally come to terms with this.
Well, if Lyanna intended to stop Jon from knowing it. Ned on the crossroads said to Jon that next time they see each other, they will talk about his mother. Maybe it wasn’t what Lyanna asked him or Ned with that Jon joining NW would tell him that no matter what. He couldn’t be threat to IT anymore. NW is supposed to be neutral and NW would protect him for the rest of his life. Then I ask if Ned would send him there there even if it wasn’t his idea.
Didn’t the casting call for what we assume to be the Arthur Dayne character call for someone who was a master swordsman? Has anyone checked if any of these actors has that sort of background?
Geralt of Rivia,
If one of the dragons takes a special liking to Jon, that might convince a few people, Dany at least. 🙂
Geralt of Rivia,
Yeah, I think it’s just about to whom it really matters that Jon is Targ. For one path to being king, it would indeed matter that many believe it (and have proof, perhaps). But I doubt that’s his story, anyway. It may be that it only matters to a few, for whom it can become evident in any number of ways. It might matter to Dany very much, and so the story just has to reveal it to her, not with a courtroom’s evidence, either. Mel can find out through her own means, and her support might be important. Bran is about to know, obviously, and he could let a couple other people that matter know.
But this argument about how proof will get out to the masses is a bit misguided, I think.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Interesting. I just had to look at that scene from S4E01 again. While Joffrey reads the page about Sir Arthur Dayne you can see the page on the left about someone else who’s not named there. But it says he was dispatched by king Aerys to find Rhaegar and he died in the Red Mountains alongside his kingsguard brothers Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent who were all killed by “a small force” led by Eddard Stark.
So they basically gave the script for that scene already and kept the number and identity of men on Neds side ambiguous. I don’t think they will contradict what they established here, although it’s only something people know who go back and look at things on freeze frame.
Cock Merchant,
So that could mean even Gerold Hightower will be present in the ToJ flashback?
Polygamy is not recognized in Westeros. The Targs only got away with it when they did because of dragons. Even if there was some document that could somehow prove that Rhaeagar and Lyanna married, the vast majority of lords and the Faith would not recognize it even if they did believe it, which itself is highly unlikely.
Geralt of Rivia,
Ah, I see. Yes, if Rhaegar set aside Ellaria and legally married Lyanna, then there should be some “paper trail.” However, that trail might have been long-since destroyed, and any documents that could be produced could be accused of being forged. Look at what “Birthers” keep claiming about Barrack Obama’s birth certificate: if people do not want to accept what Jon is, then they will not.
This is going to be a more general issue for Jon this season and in Winter. He’s now out of of the Night’s Watch, and the sentence for that is death. He cannot use the excuse of “I was dead, but I got better”: nobody would accept that.
The parallel obviously is going to be with Daeny having to convince the Dothraki not to lock her up into Widow’s Purgatory. But Daeny has much more obvious means of “persuading” people than has Jon. I suspect that Arya might have something similar with the Faceless Men: if she strikes out on her own, then she might well be marked. (That could explain why the Waif is trying to kill her.) Tyrion has similar issues for having killed Tywin, once he ever returns. Bran might have difficulty convincing people that the voice in the trees is really him. The Winter story almost certainly is attached to this somehow.
FreeParking,
If Daeny will believe in it and there is some document to convince her besides bonding with a dragon. Daeny in the books thinks that it was romantic rather than anything else. It’s not a stretch to think show Daeny might think the same. You know she has three dragons and might matter what she says and not so much what others might say. Dragons can be a pretty convincing argument.
ghost of winterfell,
That might do a trick.
That is a very, very general synopsis that is consistent with what we know. Moreover, remember that this was written by someone who was not there: so, he could easily not know what really happened.
And, of course, if you actually caught this, then I am impressed! There is no way that more than a tiny, tiny fraction of the audience bothered to pause those scenes and read the book. (In this case, I bet that they do remember: because only a hardcore would do that!)
You say that with such authority but the seed has been sewn for his release from those vows, “ended.” Word can get around. If some dude is released from his vows and rises from a raging pyre, that’s a good reason for word to spread. Besides, once NW is extinguished, there will doubly be no problem.
Geralt of Rivia,
Dany’s dragons will not have time to reach Aegon’s dragons size. She will need something more to convince all the lords and the Faith, which has been gaining power, that polygamy is legitimate in Westeros. Honestly it is much easier if Dany thinks Jon is a Targ, that she just legitimizes him herself when she has the power.
Good to see that GRRM not only gets his 7th
Sure, the story would spread: and be dismissed just like grumpkins, Snarks and White Walkers. Turn that story on it’s head: why in the world would anybody think that it is true? Dead people do not rise from burning pyres alive and well: and therefore the story must be false.
Again, this is why Jon is going to have a hard time convincing the Northerners that he’s not a deserter meriting execution: claiming that he was dead and therefore released from his vows might be the most clever lie that they’ve ever heard from a Night Watch deserter, but it’s obviously a lie because people do not come back from the dead.
But why would she do that? Jon’s claim would come before hers given the rules of primogeniture. She would essentially be abdicating. The only way she might do it is if she weds Jon: but I have problems seeing that happening in some ways.
I’m really not sure Jon’s parentage will ever be revealed to Westeros at large, and maybe not even to him(although I think there’s a better than 50/50 chance he will find out). We(and Bran) will almost certainly find out via flashback, and for all we know that may be enough.
Wimsey,
If Dany takes Westeros, she would be re-conquering it. Any rules that existed before aren’t going to matter because Dany can and will set her own. She will be Queen and if she legitimizes Jon then he would be her heir until she has children. She can also we’d him in order to combine their claims. Either way, her legitimizing him will not take her crown away.
Besides, it wouldn’t matter anyway unless Jon pressed a claim against her. And if they’re allies, Jon wouldn’t do that because he’s Jon. It would be way out of character.
Please post some new news above this article?
Know it hasn’t, but it feels like it’s been here forever for some weird reason every time I click on site and see that same b&w pic of Maisie ….
Damien,
Last night was Halloween…..
Sue & Co. get a pass for today in hopes they all went out and participated in some drunken revelry.
Man, give them some time to recover!!!
Damien,
HEAR THAT, YOU LAZY UNGRATEFUL SITE RUNNERS? ITS NOT ENOUGH! MOAR!
/kidding
On a burning Bolton cross probably. 🙁
A man is in Belfast
https://instagram.com/p/9eOLU1qM_w/
valar morghulis
Daeny cannot set aside blatant sexism. If Jon is recognized as Rhaegar’s legitimate son, then there will rapidly grow a body of lords that would rather have him than her because they always will prefer “him” to “her.”
Sometimes I wonder if Bran/BR will access Jon while his mind is in limboland and his body is recovering. Perhaps they escort his mind via the weirnet/greensight to the ToJ vision and he gets his parental info then, before he is “revived.” Maybe Mel is involved as well? In that case (and in most cases), the reveal will be entirely covert to Westeros and Jon may even doubt it himself. You gotta wonder how the news will spread and be accepted. I’m with Wimsey in that the national/international disbelief of a Stark/Targ biological liaison may be a story in and of itself.
I neither said I wanted nor thought that would happen. I was discussing with people on how Jon Targ could be widely acceptable across Westeros. I don’t see a document or an item (a harp for instance) making everyone go “Oh, he is clearly Lyanna and Rhaegar’s legitimate kid.” Someone in power legitimizing him makes the most sense, if that is the direction the story goes. Frankly I don’t think Jon would want to be known as a Targaryen. He was raised a Stark, and Ned will always be his father to him.
King in the North Carolina,
Jon will find out. GRRM said it. It’s absolutely necesarry for him to know, but it’s possible that large part of Westeros will not know it. But then how would Dany know about it and what if she doesn’t believe it? It’s possible. Unless Jon might bond with a dragon and that is questionable. Other than that not much an option.
GRRM and B&W both are big on parallels. I am betting that, somehow, the manner in which Jon convinces people that he’s not a deserter (= widow) and that he’s actually Ned Stark’s nephew (= Rhaegar’s sister not brother) is going to parallel what Daeny has to do to get Dothraki and Westerosi behind her.
But I do think that we should not assume that Northern Lords are going to treat Jon bastard son of Ned or Jon ?bastard son of Rhaegar as the “victim” of the Night Watch rather than as a traitor to the Night Watch. Letting the Wildlings through the Wall will be treated by them in the same way that the NW treated it. And they will be even slower to accept that it is this, or give the White Walkers a massive Zombie army: the NW at least accept that there is some WW threat (although they obviously consider it to be much less than Jon and the Wildlings insist) whereas the Northerners will be very skeptical.
And the Southerners will flat out reject it as “grumpkins and snarks.”
The big take-home lesson for Jon is that sometimes an individual has to greatly compromise his honor to save others, be it a kingdom or a little boy. (This is a lesson that Stannis could not learn, for what that is worth.) That might influence his decision regarding whether or not he is still a Man of the Watch.
FreeParking: I neither said I wanted nor thought that would happen. I was discussing with people on how Jon Targ could be widely acceptable across Westeros. I don’t see a document or an item (a harp for instance) making everyone go “Oh, he is clearly Lyanna and Rhaegar’s legitimate kid.” Someone in power legitimizing him makes the most sense, if that is the direction the story goes. Frankly I don’t think Jon would want to be known as a Targaryen. He was raised a Stark, and Ned will always be his father to him.
I agree. In the books it will definitely be Robb’s Will that will solidify the north behind Jon, thanks to the efforts of Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, Howland Reed and Wyman Manderly. Although I think Jon may relinquish his claim on the North once Sansa is revealed. And while Jon definitely views himself as a Stark, I mean his entire identity is tied to Ned Stark and his family, I wonder how his death and the subsequent visions/revelations will change him and the perception he has of himself. Will it lead him to make a claim on the IT, if for no other reason than to force the Kingdoms to unite and face the coming threat posed by the Others?
If there were ever a day appropriate to tinfoil-hat meditation, it’s today. All of you seem so sure now that Dany is going to rule Westeros. As much as I would love Dany to be shown as a wise, competent female ruler, I don’t think we are going to have to worry about it. This is my own humble opinion, based on my take of her visions, only on the show, during her trek through the House of the Undying and GRRM’s statements about the ending being bittersweet.
…which turns out to be the north gate through the Wall at Castle Black. She walks through the snow …toward the light … to find Khal Drogo in his tent with their beautiful baby boy. It always mystified me why Drogo would be shown in the north, beyond the wall, surrounded by snow, when he could barely stomach the thought of sailing the sea.
I think it’s because Dany answers the call of her dragons, goes north and dies beyond the wall, where she is then able to reunite with Drogo and the baby. In death.
Bittersweet.
Ok, have at it. Call me crazy. I call ’em as I see ’em.
Thronetender,
I like it. I like it a lot. Quite bittersweet.
Thanks. It really pained me to come to that conclusion. Upon rereading it, I would have changed one sentence as follows:
I think the situation in the North gets so desperate, that they implore her to come North to deal with the White Walkers. They know of her and her dragons, because they have heard what she did in Kings Landing. So much for answering your destiny and doing your duty.
It took me too long trying to figure out how Jon was Rhaegar’s sister and not his brother…
Assuming someone does in fact end up ruling Westeros, I think Dany might legitimize Jon and make him her heir before she dies (after learning of his parentage), which also happens to tie in nicely with Thronetender’s theory.
Of course I personally can’t see (and much less want) Jon ruling Westeros, but then his character is likely to undergo somewhat of a transformation anyway – so who knows. Unfortunately, I just can’t see Dany pulling through either.
I guess the one thing this theory has going for it is that it neatly ties up several storylines and provides some poetic, bittersweet closure for the characters.
Anyone whose ancestry is ancient in northern Britian, Scotland and Ireland has a significant portion of Scandinavion blood in them. The “Vikings” invaded and either married or raped their way into the genetics countless times.
Fienix,
Prophesy and HotU aside, how will Dany ever have enough advice and info on Jon’s “Targness” to make such a decision? She is in the same boat as all the other skeptics in Westeros, if not moreso. Perhaps the red princesses may provide some clarification? She thinks she is alone in the world. How will she be convinced?
——
Thronetender, regarding the snow falling that Dany sees in her “dream”…perhaps, like Mel, she is confusing the “Snow” metaphor. Or maybe that snow is really falling in KL (and the fight has come to her as she arrives). In any case, I agree that once she arrives in Westeros, she may fatefully have to address all aspects of the “snow” metaphor before pursuing any aspirations of ruling Westeros.
good point – hadn’t thought of that in terms of being the same as Melisandre always seeing snow or Snow. Hmmm … maybe that’s why she goes to touch the snow on the throne/her dragons call and she goes to the north? Don’t know, and we probably have 2 1/2 years before we know how it plays out. But I don’t think
Thronetender,
Yeah…we have to wonder what the casualty count will be before Sam and Bran discover and communicate the mysteries, misunderstandings and treaties of the past…. 🙂
WiC is reporting possible sighting of a wolf pack filming:
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/11/01/filming-not-done-in-riverrun-packs-of-wolves-spotted/
There was something about that on this site’s twitter feed yesterday.
Roger Sterling,
I don’t think the wolves are related to Riverrun filming. Lots of snow at Riverrun? Where is Ghost?
Roger Sterling,
I see that Watchers on The Wall has asked for more information on Twitter. I wonder if it’s true. Would they really film the wolves in Northern Ireland? Seems too dangerous and too difficult to get them there. How can you transport a pack of wolves? I’d expect them to film the wolves in their natural habitat or at a wolf sanctuary (or what is the right word in English?) and CGI them in the Riverlands.
The wolves who play Ghost and Summer are also filmed somewhere else, and that’s only one wolf at the time.
Chilli,
Yeah, most likely fake. They filmed Ghost in Canada last year.
Name *,
Parallels, parallels!
As much as anything else, they colonized. They founded some English cities and all of the old Irish ones. (The Romans never made it to Ireland.)
There should be a lot of snow are Riverrun soon.
Not quite sure what you mean by treaties of the past – is that a book thing? Or were you referring to things like Cersei’s agreement with Littlefinger based on him bringing her Sansa’s head? I’m just glad you included Sam. We sometimes forget the part that Sam can play in dredging up information.
And yet, what would any treaty in Westeros matter if Dany comes over, and eventually meets the fate I think she’s going to meet?
Wimsey,
True, but they’ve been filming for two weeks there (maybe more) without it thus far.
I think Robert Aramayo looks more like Howland Reed, he shares some similarities with Jojen Reed’s actor.
Yes, book stuff. According to ASoI&F legend, the Long Night/Battle for the Dawn ended after the First Men, AA, CotF, Giants and the Others came to a “violent agreement” that kept the WWs in the far north and enabled the wall to be built. This was all done without dragons in the mix. The rationale for the “treaty”, which may have been facilitated by the CotF, is the subject of endless debate, and may be the ultimate “truth” in this tale.
Most of it will get added after they do principle photography. Also, keep in mind that a season spans many months of time.
To follow up on HB, we have yet to learn what really happened all of those years ago. The Azor Ahai story (vague as it is) almost certainly is highly misleading, if not flatout false. Moreover, whatever R’hllor is telling its priests is almost certainly not to be trusted.
I would look more at the Children than the Maesters for the answers. The Maesters came about long after this stuff happened: and both book & show indicate that they would be skeptical that there was any truth to these stories.
Agreed. History has many houses going extint. I think the Wildlings will fill the void like the Thanes are doing.
Am I the only one that sees that if you use all the letters in the names, Rowland Selwyn/Ser Alfred Hunrith it is an anagram that can spell either Arthur Dayne or Ser Howland Reed????????????