Immediately upon hearing the news that not one, not two, not three but FOUR Game of Thrones spinoffs were in development, my mind turned to speculating on what those spinoffs might be. Now reports suggest we might only have one of these spinoffs actually go into production, maybe two. We have to take that into account when examining the possibilities. As awesome as it would be to see a series based on the Long Night and the war between the White Walkers and the Children of the Forest, it’s probably not going to happen given how expensive that would be. But thankfully, George R. R. Martin has built a world with a very rich and detailed history, so there are still many possibilities. Let’s dive in and discuss some of those.
Robert’s Rebellion
The one possibility that immediately jumps into everyone’s mind when they hear the words “Game of Thrones spinoff” is a Robert’s Rebellion prequel. And for good reason. This story is really the beginning of the story we are watching unfold now on our TV screens and in the pages of the books. It’s essentially one long story with a 17 year interlude. So getting to go back to the beginning and see how it all began is very exciting. The casting speculation alone would be a blast. Who would HBO get to play young Ned? Young Robert and young Cersei? Or what about Rhaegar? I can already see lots of discussion and speculation amongst the Watcher faithful coming from the buildup to this potential spinoff. And for the casual audience, telling the story of Robert’s Rebellion is something that they would immediately be invested in as it would include characters they already know and love.
If they do decide to tell the story of Robert’s Rebellion, it’s not one that can continue on for multiple seasons. It would have to be a single limited series run. Or, potentially, a series of films. (This Twitter thread from @ManuclearBomb lays out what a Robert’s Rebellion trilogy might look like.)
There would also be the issue of continuity with the main series. We’ve already seen a Tower of Joy flashback in its entirety, with a young Ned, Lyanna and others. While it wouldn’t be a huge deal to have to recast these roles and refilm this iconic scene, it does make for some awkward continuity between the two series. Lastly, it might be best to leave this story untold strictly because it is so integral to the main series. One of the themes prevalent in the books (not quite as much in the show though), is how history looks different depending on the perspective of the person who is viewing it. For example, to Robert, Rhaegar is remembered as an evil monster just like his father, the Mad King. But Barristan remembers him as a kind and thoughtful prince who would have made a great king. The different lenses through which we view this recent history is important to the main story and if we get a “definitive” version of the Rebellion, that would lessen the importance of this theme.
Dunk & Egg
If you aren’t familiar with it, Dunk & Egg is a series of short stories by George R. R. Martin that cover the adventures of a knight named Ser Duncan the Tall and his squire, Egg. There have been three published so far and more planned, if GRRM ever finishes the main series. They all take place about 70-80 years prior to the events of the main series which means although you won’t see any familiar characters (except for a very young Walder Frey), you will see the grandparents of some familiar characters.
The main issue with Dunk & Egg is there is not a lot of source material to work with. You have three short stories, each of which would probably end up being condensed down into about 2 hours worth of screen time. Can you make one limited run series out of that? Maybe. But each story is self-contained with the only recurring characters being Dunk & Egg themselves. These stories are also much smaller in scope. Would the audience accept that after being used to the huge and sprawling storyline of Game of Thrones? Hard to say. Ultimately, while a Dunk & Egg adaptation would be a lot of fun, I’m not sure it’s the best choice for a spinoff series.
Aegon’s Conquest
On the opposite end of the small scale/small impact stories of Dunk & Egg, you have the epic story of Aegon’s Conquest. This would be the story of how Aegon Targaryen and his two sister-wives used a small army and three huge dragons to conquer Westeros. Occurring some 300 years prior to the events of the main series, this tale is essentially The Silmarillion of the Song of Ice and Fire books. We would see the Seven Kingdoms the last time they were actually seven separate kingdoms.
While this story would be truly epic to watch unfold on screen, it would also be very, very expensive. Massive armies, huge battles and three fully grown dragons in episode after episode would stretch even HBO’s generous TV budgets. There would also be a lack of political intrigue that has become a hallmark of Game of Thrones, with the Conquest being strictly a bloody and ruthless military campaign (the later alliance with Dorne being the exception). It would be cool to watch but ultimately I think too expensive and too far removed from the current series to be worth producing.
Blackfyre Rebellion
The Blackfyre Rebellion may not be as prominent a conflict as the Conquest or Robert’s Rebellion, but it has quite a large amount of source material gleaned from the Ice and Fire series and the companion World of Ice and Fire book. The very brief synopsis of the Rebellion is that King Aegon Targaryen legitimizes his bastard sons on his deathbed, throwing the realm into a state of civil war as Daemon Waters, who adopts the name “Blackfyre”, fights alongside his bastard half-brothers, collectively known as the Great Bastards, to claim the throne from Aegon’s trueborn son, Daeron. This all happens roughly 100 years prior to the events of the main series.
If HBO is looking to emulate the formula that made Game of Thrones a success, with a series that is not just a direct prequel to the original, this would be the story to tell. It has all the usual hallmarks of an HBO drama; sex, violence, political intrigue, interfamily drama, etc. It even has a dose of magic in the character of Bloodraven, a mysterious sorcerer who supports his trueborn half-brother Daeron against his fellow Great Bastards.
And while the battles could be epic and expensive, they wouldn’t be the focal point of the series, but can be used sparingly as the battles in Thrones are now. Oh, and the conflict that I briefly described above was actually only the first of five separate rebellions by the Blackfyre line. So this could continue for multiple seasons, leading up to the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which begins to feature familiar characters such as Tywin Lannister and Barristan Selmy. All in all, I think this era of Westerosi history is ripe for adaptation.
So that’s my four potential spinoff ideas. What do you think has the best chance of getting produced? Are there other eras or stories you would like to see adapted? Discuss and speculate away in the comments below!
The Life and Times of HODOR!!!!!
Of these four possibilities, the Blackfyre Rebellion is the one I would most like to see (and I love your Mads Mikkelsen casting idea!). As I explained in the earlier thread post about this, what I’d most like to see, though, is the history leading up to the Doom of Valyria (and a far greater exploration of the lands and peoples of Essos).
If they do Robert’s Rebellion, I want John Noble (Denethor from Lord of the Rings) to play the Mad King.
BigMac,
Yup!!!!! But I agree with Wolfish, Blackfyre Rebellion would be the one I’d like to see. Unless they create something wholly original, like showing the power struggles that occured between the prominent families in Old Valyria leading up to the Targs departure for Westeros!
People said ASoIaF would be too big and too expensive to make. Even George himself at one time didn’t think it would be possible. Well, they’ve done it. Even with a smaller budget in the first couple seasons they managed to do a very good job of it.
Now I’m seeing a lot of mentions all over that (this) or (that) would be too expensive. I don’t completely agree with that. It would be a choice on the part of HBO to decide just how “big” they want to go, but I bet they could do any story period they want for no more than they’re stuffing into GoT currently. That is to say, if they go REAL big they may be at comparable levels to these last handful of seasons. While on the other hand, if they want to go much cheaper they can do a more of a walking & talking series. For my liking I’d prefer they throw in large!
The Dance of Dragons for me.
It gives us a look at what the,Targaryens were at the zenith.
It’s a civil war.
Dragons are plentiful here and of all different shapes and sizes.
It’s got loads of battles.
Plenty of different characters.
The Starks are on the periphery in this one. Other houses which have not featured play a bigger part such as House Veleryon.
Great article as always, keep up the great work.
I believe the three best options are
The Dance of Dragons
This might be a bit expensive, but I think it has a lot of potential. Epic dragon battles, betrayals, plotting, great characters, family drama, and memorable moments that can stand up their with the main series.
The backfyre Rebellions for the reasons you listed above, I couldn’t stop reading about it in the World of ice and fire. A very interesting event in the Targaryen family. Epic sword fights, Drama, magic, battles, plotting, romance, would make for a great limited series.
Following the Story of Aemon the Dragon knight would be a personal favorite choice of mine, definitely one of my favorite members of the Targaryan family. Paragon Knight, served three very different and engaging kings, the relationship with his sister. We will get the conqueringredients Dorne storyline, Baelor the blessed and the snake pitt, and the maiden vault, and the last king who names escapes me. Definitely his story has almost everything I love about Thrones ^^
Also if George rr Martin worked with the writers closely I wouldn’t mind a Dunk and egg limited series đ
Clob,
And to that I would add that much of the expense incurred during GoT was likely in “preliminaries” including (but not limited to) scouting locations, scouting historical experts (e.g., for weapons training), and developing and fine-tuning special effects (especially the dragons and direwolves). I know very little about film and TV production, but I would hazard that in terms of world-building and its attendant costs, HBO already has a really solid foundation that it didn’t have ten years ago.
I say Dance of Dragons! I know, I know, “too expensive”, but I’m allowed to dream, aren’t I? Besides, I could see HBO being clever with it, finding ways to do it even with a limited (though still massive for a TV-show) budget. And I feel like DoD has the most potential to have both the awesome action and the political intrigue we know and love – oh, and fucking dragons! Whichever story they decide to go for, I’ll be excited to watch, but let’s just say Dance of Dragons would be the one to have me as hyped for the spin-off as I am for GoT, possibly even more!
I also think Blackfyre might be the best out of the four, especially if they’re looking to do a long-term series like they’ve done with Game of Thrones. However, I would also love to see a miniseries or a couple of movies about Robert’s Rebellion as my second choice based on how you’ve laid them all out (maybe if they decide to go with two projects). But I do think you make a good point with the importance of the ambiguity about what really happened during that period of the story. Aegon’s Conquest would be amazing and a lot of fun to watch, but certainly requires a bigger budget than HBO would be willing to dish out.
I really just love all the possibilities lol. GRRM has given us quite an amazing world and part of me wishes it were possible to see all of it played out on screen.
I always thought a Robert’s Rebellion spinoff would be best, mainly because I didn’t get enough of Robert and Ned in the Fire & Ice series. After reading this article, I’m thinking a Blackfyre rebellion series might make the best television. I liked Sean Bean and the actor that played Robert so much that’s it’s them I actually wanted to see more of and of course those actors couldn’t play their younger selves, so I’m going with Blackfyre
The dragons in GoT don’t feature that often, so I don’t know how they could do Dance of Dragons.
Posted this on another board but wanted to know what people thought of this?
Gerion Lannister on his quest east to find the House Lannister Valyrian steel Sword Brightroar. Borrow from Homers Odyssey and send him through the smoking sea, past Qarth and into Yi Ti, the Five Forts and Asshai in the Shadow Lands; get really fantastical about it. GRRM barrows from so many historical figures and stories and blends them into his world so i think this would be great to have an Odyssey set in ASOIAF. His decade long journey could conclude with his return just after the conclusion of the books/ show to a world that has changed more than he has; leaving it unrecognizable.
If they’re planning it to be an ongoing series they should do it as an anthology, a different even each season. Dunk and Egg would be fine, GRRM is evidently eager for it to be that, but there’s not much of the fantasy elements, really just a little shapeshifting. They could do each of the historical events, even have the same actors playing the different generations of the main families, which could work seeing as they’re meant to have striking genetic features that move down the generations
Wolfish,
Exactly. The foundation is already in place. Including a mini-economy in N. Ireland that I’m sure would love to keep the GoT world alive.
But more important, the technology for CGI and other special effects has advanced so much just over the past six years – and gotten less expensive – that I don’t think spectacular dragon scenes etc are financial impediments.
But as for me, I’ll take anything. They could do a 70 hour series consisting solely of Sandor Clegane saying “FucÂŁ water…Bring me wine!” on a continuous loop, and I’d be glued to the screen.
And why not making an anthology series so that each one of these stories could take one season of 8 to 12 chapters (depending of the needs)?
I think it is the best idea and I refuse to think that anyone in HBO hasnt thought about it.
Out of these choices i think Robert Rebelion is the best choice for a S1, as most if not all the characters are already known to the audience. Second would be Aegon conquest, as is pretty important, but budget would be too high
Arriba,
Love the anthology-series idea!
Some people seem to think that Dance of the Dragons was just a story of an all-out dragons on dragons battle and nothing else. That isn’t true as there’s much more to it and behind it, and quite a bit more could be filled in that would be intriguing without dragons on screen. As for dragons in battle I think they could show much at a range that’s cheaper as well (less detail and dragon & rider greenscreen stuff).
Ten Bears,
LMAO!!! You and I are in the same boat. đ
I think NOT doing Dunk & Egg as two-hour TV movies because of the lack of high fantasy intrigue and magic is utter pish-posh. If done well, these two main characters will be two of the most endearing in the HBO adaptation of GRRM’s world.
I say screw the GoT fans who wouldn’t enjoy it because of it’s lack of “epic” action.
Regarding D&E,
Bloodraven (3ER) also figures as a background character in this series who comes forward in the 3rd book quite interestingly. It would be nice to have more of his dark tale as a side story to the D&E development, which could also include the Blackfyre shenanigans.
(Although we may get more snippets of the dark BR tale in TWoW)
Hodors Bastard,
HB! How the hell are ya, mate?
I’d like to see Old Valyria it’s it prime… Instead of focusing of Westeros… Most the stories would be in Essos… All the stories in Westeros would be about the beginning of all the houses. and the early Lords. They could get into the start of the Faceless Men and how they got to Braavos. There was also magic in Old Valyria.
I’m not a fan of any spinoff. Anything after GOT is going to be inferior. There’s a reason GRRM chose to wrote, and they chose to produce, ASOIAF/GOT and not any of these other ideas. Because this is a grand orchestra leading to a massive worldly conflict with the fate of the human race deciding on it. Anything else is going to be greatly diminished in scale.
So, does this make anyone else here think about a certain Simpson’s episode from about 20 years ago?
None of these ideas existed before GRRM thought of the SoI&F story(ies). It’s not like he found some Red Book somewhere and transcribed it…..
I think it would be neat if they expanded on certain storylines we’ve already partially seen. Kind of like what the Telltale game is doing, or even like what they did with Rogue One in Star Wars. There’s so many good possibilities, and it gives them the chance to go back and develop certain storylines that were amazing in the books but didn’t get the opportunity to shine in the show because of limited budget. Take for example all of Robb’s victories, they could show some of those through the eyes of some new character in Robb’s army.
Given how few attempts at Epic Fantasy have met any critical or commercial success, you are absolutely correct. GoT is succeeding despite the fantasy element, not because of it.
But, again, Rogue One had the classic prequel problem. I had heard nothing about the film before I saw it and for some reason thought that it was set before Force Awakens. (I was living under a particularly comfy rock last autumn.) As soon as I figured out what was happening, I remembered how the film was going to end. Now, it was an entertaining movie: but I already knew that everybody died.
Things here would be even more limited. OK, we knew everyone was going to die in Rogue One. The only thing we learned in Star Wars (or the only thing that I remembered all of these years later) was that the rebels who stole the plans gave their lives for it. We didn’t know who they were, why they were there, or anything like that. For this, things are much more tightly constrained: particular characters have to do particular things. It would be like watching a documentary, not a story.
RR is the top of my list – I just think it would be both easy to do and quite excellent, so why not?
However, I think the Dance of Dragons would work a lot better than than Aegon’s Conquest. Mostly because there is a good mix of court intrigue and backstabbing to go along with the EPIK DRAGN BATTULZ.
Also Rhaenyra is my fave Targ other than Dany, and as the first Queen Regnant of Westeros paved the way for the conquest of The Stormborn we’ll be seeing next season.
Blackfyre stuff and D&E could technically be part of the same longer running series, since it’s almost the same time period (that is to say, D&E is the aftermath of BF like ASOIAF is the aftermath of RR). Still if I had to pick I’d go for D&E with the BF rebellion forming the historical backdrop. It would also be refreshing to get a more intimate story about two characters instead of a bajillion…
Wimsey,
Hello W. I’m fair to partly cloudy, lost in the Frostfangs as usual. Hope all is well with you. Keeping everyone in line regarding Chekhov guns, faux protagonists and meta-antagonists?
Now that my father is a damn wight who originally went by the name of Wylis or Walder and was lobotomized by a Stark, I am without purpose and have fled to the high country to seek guidance from the CotF, who seem to have disappeared.
I would rule out Robert Rebellion because of the flashback scenes we are getting these last couple seasons are showing (or will show) us everything we need (or want) to know and Dance of Dragons era which would be EPIC but is actually not TV budget friendly..these would be MASSIVE dragon battles that would require buttload of CGI work and filming which isnt cheap
Dunk and Egg I can see actually working as a show..lots of stuff you can do with two traveling Knights/companions and could be stretched a good few seasons but I dont think would be as epic as GOT so might have a harder time keeping viewers
my vote is on Aegons Conquest as one I think is prime for HBO with sex , palace intrigue and some battles thrown in….. House Targ, Lannister,Stark will all be there and familar to viewers but far enough in the past that characters dont have to tie into current GOT ones and to stay “cannon” dragons are really only needed at Harrenhall burning scene and Field of Fire, both of which can be the big “battle” of their resepctive seasons so budget wouldnt be outrageous
I would do a variation of Aegon’s Conquest and call it simply “Seven Kingdoms”. Focus on what Westeros was like when there were actually Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps several years or even a full generation leading up to Aegon’s Conquest. Deal with all of the power struggles within and between all of the individual kingdoms which ultimately led to Aegon deciding to unite all the kingdoms of Westeros. In other words, the culmination of the series would be Aegon’s Conquest, instead of just a story showing the few years of war in Aegon’s Conquest.
After taking a detour in their travels, Arya and the Hound end up sharing a small apartment in California. They meet new people. Stuff happens.
Wimsey,
That’s why I said completely new characters with new backstories, or taking from houses that we barely know anything about, just like Telltale did. We’d know the general outcome of the overarching story, but they could still have the main characters of the series end wherever they want.
I love that idea. It would really allow for free play into an angle of the story of which we have seen very little – exploration both literally and figuratively! Any favorite uncle of Tyrion’s has to be an engaging character! I’d be fascinated to find out what became of him, whether he found Brightroar, crossed paths with Euron etc.
Arriba,
An anthology series based on house Targaryen, starting with Aegon and ending with Robert’s rebellion!!! And Aegon’s story can have plenty of drama. ,a love triangle between the Targ siblings .There are rumours that Visenya played a part in Maegor’s choice to take his nephew’s throne.
Said this in another thread but am yearning to see the Tragedy at Summerhall depicted. Thought there was quite a bit of mystery around what really happened to destroy so many so it seems it would be great fun to write.
Battle for the Dawn/Long Night series please
Gotta say I have to disagree with you on Roberts Rebellions, specifically the idea that it would be a one season show.
I think they could make it a lot bigger than that without much effort, I’m talking three maybe four seasons.
We have to start off with before the Tourney of Harrenhall, you would need at least a couple of episodes to set up the scene and establish the characters, the relationships (such as Lyanna’s betrothal to Robert, Brandon’s betrothal to Catlyn etc) and you can have political mechanizations occurring as well. There is a lot of evidence that suggests Rhaegar was actively planning with the major lords of the realm to depose his father. That is a HUGE story and would involve a lot on intrigue.
So much happens at the Tourney itself it is actually quite easily imaginable that this would would take at least two episodes. We have Rhaegar and Lyanna meeting, Ashara, Ned, Brandon and that whole tangled thread, the knight of the smiling tree, Jaime being cloaked, Rhaegar winning the entire tourney. So much freaking happens I find it very hard to believe they could fit it all into 58 mins.
And after Harrenhall? Well you have an entire year where very little is known. What could have happened? Could Rhaegar have continued to plot to overthrow his father? could that have been found out? Did Rhaegar and Lyanna meet in secret? Correspond? What about Ashara Dayne? She was supposed to have conceived at Harrenhall and eventually had a stillborn daughter. The mad king is still being…well nuts in this case so we have potential for some excitement there as well.
All building up to the big moment where Lyanna and Rhaegar run off together.
Which leads us to the big reckoning. Brandon and Rickard’s deaths, Arryn calls for the banners which leads us to the taking Gulltown. The very beginning of what was essentially a civil war that showed how some people would still remain loyal to their king above their lord.
After this Robert sailed to storm’s end to call his own banners and Ned went north to do the same.
Then is the Battle of Summerhall, the Battle of Ashford, the start of the seige of Storms End, and the Battle of the Bells. These were all huge events that took place. Some months in between. I can’t imagine being able to show ALL of these battles one after the other as well as being able to show all of the political situations going on such as Aerys constantly switched Hands of the King, the alliance between the Tullys and the marriages of Catlyn and Lysa. How can we even think to put just THIS much in one season? And we haven’t even gotten to the big stuff yet!
The battle of the Trident comes after all of this, the biggest and arguably most important battle with Rhaegar’s death and after which Robert finally deciding to claim the throne for himself. I mean this battle is so huge, not just in scope but in the story overall since it basically spelled the beginning of the end of the Targaryans.
And we’re still not done yet!
The Battle of Mander took place after this, perhaps nothing huge but it did bring the Greyjoys into the war a bit. And it would certainly provide some action and intrigue in the episodes before….
The Sack of King’s landing. Much has been said but we all know what happens. The Lannister’s take Kings Landing, Elia, her children and Aerys are murdered, Rhaella and Viserys escape and Roberts is declared king.
But this wouldn’t be the end, not yet. Because Robert and Ned quarrel over the deaths of Rhaegars children and Ned has to go back and find Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and take Jon Snow to Winterfell. The Siege at Storms end finally has to end, House Martells has to be dealt with after the deaths of Elia and her children. There is an assault on Dragonstone at the same time Dany is born and Rhaella dies and the last Targryans flee to Essos.
That is probably the bare minimum of what needs to happen in order to tell the full story of the rebellion and tie it in nicely with the show.
Yes its a short amount of time, yes it’s not half as long as Game of Thrones but I do not see ANY way possible to tell all of this with one season or three films. They would have to be three films like LOTR in length and scope.
I could see the bulk of Roberts Rebellion taking up two full seasons, allowing time to breathe in between battles and show the political maneuverings going on all over Westeros. The year or so before Roberts Rebellion you could put together in probably a season, depending on what else is going on it may be stretched to two but that is probably stretching it a little too thin.
So three seasons, minimum. At least in my opinion.
Everyone is talking about flashbacks and continuity when it comes ro Roberts Rebellion.
We’ve had three Gregor Cleganes, two Daarios, two Myrcellas and Tomens one of which played a previous Lannister boy in season 2.
I don’t understand why continuity is such a big deal? Especially since it wouldn’t be like they kill of Robert in the Rebellion. They’ve recast before, they can recast again and as for scenes being different in the two shows…so what? As long as the basic premise is the same it hardly matters and no one will truly care.
While Dunk & Egg doesn’t have a ton of published material, I think it would easily work as the basis for a good ongoing series. The premise of a knight and squire adventuring around Westeros is easy to expand upon. You can do smaller arcs or even seasons set in a particular location, introducing different supporting characters in the different locales (would be a great way to attract high-profile talent for one season at a time), gradually build a larger narrative around the Blackfyres, Egg’s education, etc. Say you do a season about Dunk and Egg ending up involved in a succession crisis in the North, for instance, which is supposedly what “She-Wolves of Winterfell” will be about if GRRM ever gets around to writing it. It would be nice to see prestige TV move a bit back toward more individual stories (something that Netflix’s The Crown did very well, unlike virtually every other Netflix drama).
If they did Dunk and Egg the casting would have to be spot on.
Nerwen Aldarion,
Jaime and Cersei starting their relationship, Tywin leaving his position, Littlefinger’s duel and his affair with Lysa. They can start with the defiance of Dunskendale or the smiling knight.Also i don’t believe that is necessary to see the tower of joy scene they can show Ashara’s reaction to Arthur’s death and Jon instead. As for Rhaeghar ,people already like him or dislike just like many other characters we know much better than him ,like Dany or Stannis or Sansa or Jaime.
Konna,
I agree except that by showing Rhaegar and Lyanna’s relationship the Tower of Joy scene will be necessary if only to tie everything together. Be a bit like not showing Bilbo get the one ring in the Hobbit because they showed it in the original films. It’s too important not to show, even if it means showing it again (but this time without Bran standing there)
But you pointed out even more of the stuff that can/should be shown. Like I said, there is so much! No way you can just toss it into one season, one film. No freaking way.
I think we’ll see Dunk and Egg, either as stand-alone movies or as parts of a larger series about the Blackfyre Rebellion.
Would love Robert’s Rebellion too.
I agree. I grew up in an early TV era when there were a lot of successful series that combined costume drama with family-friendly swashbuckling adventure – Robin Hood, Ivanhoe, Zorro and so on – plus frequent mini-series on the Walt Disney weekly program. Typically they would start with ‘known’ stories from the literature, and then take off into original scenarios. Once a core group of characters was established, the writers could add new stuff to the canon. I see Dunk & Egg as being ripe for this type of development – especially if GRRM executive-produces. Supposedly he has outlines or at least concepts for something like 16 or 18 Dunk & Egg novellas already; and if he would be willing for a writing stable to take the stories in new directions – so long as they don’t do any egregious retconning of the known timeline of recent Westerosi history – then I could see this series having a good long run, if the casting is as good as most of GoT has been.
HunterMac87,
Yes! I was just thinking about the story as a possibility.
Now what would be rather ironic would be if HBO used the Blackfyre rebellions as a frame with which to probe the rule of absolute power of one race over an apathetic and poor population whose rebellion is lead by the same family – in the current political environment, it could be an incredibly rich exploration of societal power of a society that’s transitioning from one ruling family to others. Not saying that GOT isn’t already that…but would rather have anybody but Martin write this one…
oops my bias is showing…* vainly gathers spilled skirt
I just cannot imagine HBO wasting all those resources on doing PREQUELS! NO!! Haven’t we had enough on Robert’s Rebellion? Maybe they will make a movie for those that WANT RHAEGAR SO BAD!!! The story possibilities would be extremely limited to the current truth and current world condition. I would strongly prefer for the story to continue BEYOND the current time. A story that keeps Arya(and her direwolf Nymeria) and the Hound. To go west of Westeros and the rest of the planet. There could be occasional cameos of fav survivors of the winter. The adventures of Dunk and Egg could be fun, but still we already know how it ends!! Sheeesh.
I sure hope that we get a spinoff that continues where the current story ends.
Of the 4, I want to see Robert’s Rebellion the most. Followed by Aegon’s Conquest, the Blackfyre Rebellion, and then Dunk & Egg (gods, that story just doesn’t interest me at all & the name ‘Dunk & Egg’ is too cutesy for my taste).
Of the 4, I think the likeliest to be adapted are (in order): Robert’s Rebellion, the Blackfyre Rebellion, Dunk & Egg, and last, Aegon’s Conquest (there would be too much dragon CGI required and I doubt HBO would fork over that much money).
I’d also welcome a sequel-of-sorts taking place a few hundred years in the future where we see how Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Sansa/etc. progeny managed of build or fuck up on what their forebearers accomplished. Kind of like Pillars of the Earth/World Without End.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed something is adapted soon-ish because after 2018 I’m going to be suffering from major GOT withdrawal.
I’ve been trying! I even tried to found the Church of the Hanging Gun for tax purposes. However, it turns out that the NRA already has a copyright on it. So, I just threaten them with walls.
Good to see you back: I only recently returned after a hiatus, myself!
Nerwen Aldarion,
Its pointless doing this now. You’ve leaked the whole show
Huntermac87, I think that’s a brilliant idea! I would love to see the currently unseen lands of Essos, especially Ashhai. It would be great to get more background on the Lord of Light religion.
Shebear of Mormont,
I agree…the spinoff should be called west of westeros
I would love to see the Age of Heroesâthe building of Winterfell and the Wall (and Storm’s End!?) with Bran the Builder, Garth Greenhand, Lann the Clever and the petty kings of the Vale, the Mudd kings, all the way up to the Andal invasion. We could even get the Long Night and the Last Hero!
I’d also love to see D&E, though, and my girl Rohanne Webber, plus the She-Wolves of Winterfell and Baelor Breakspear, Brynden Bloodraven, the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion. I’m so pumped for whatever they come up with.
I would say:
– Robert’s rebellion
– Dunk & Egg
– Dance of Dragons
– Aegon’s conquest
Awesome idea!
Of the four listed, my fave by far is the Blackfyre Rebellion!
I always thought if there was gonna be a prequel then it would be Aegon’s conquest, I had even imagined how it begins, it starts with showing a place that is on fire,everyone dying and screaming and running, then a young girl(Daenys the dreamer) wakes up panting, and the scene is fast forwarded to Dragonstone and young Aegon,then the series kicks off..it would be awesome but as it is mentioned, too expensive.and do we really want to see Starks bend the knee?
After reading this,I really hope they do the BF rebellion, that would also mean lots of wigs or good news for blond actors (or not)
There are just so many stories they could do,like someone said,the quest of Gerion lannister, or the beginning of the Faceless men,Valyria and building of Braavos and etc.
Hot Pie Presents: The Great American Bake-Off
The enterprise already built up is one reason I thought GoT should be extended more seasons. Condensing S7 and S8 to only the most gaudy scenes seems a waste of expertise as well as omission of dramatic interactions and moments. And a short ending to the saga provides an excuse to leave out reveals. It seems a shame that the behind the scenes production teams will just dissolve to a mist and blow away like a WW struck by obsidian.
HunterMac87,
Good idea. Lots of possibility.
Robert’s Rebellion can be expanded to chronicle the “Life and Times of Aery II Targaeryan”, a lot of things happen before and during his reign. Starting with his friendship with Tywin Lannister and Stefon Baratheon. The rumored scandal that he took Joanna’s maidenhead. His constant decision-making battles with Tywin as his Hand, Defiance in Duskendale, etc
Robert’s Rebellion could end up being on a later season like on third or fourth season
I think out of the four Dunk and Egg or Blackfyre Rebellion would be the best if they want long running shows. I also think doing a history of all the Targaryen’s would be fascinating, they had such a rich history involved with many houses.
I think Robert’s Rebellion and Aegon’s Conquer would be awesome but better as limited series or even better movies so there isn’t such a budget restriction. GOT has always had limited battle scenes that we could probably count on our hands because of their own budget restrictions, they have skipped or shortened lot’s of battles and the question would be will people be very happy if they severely restrict the battles in such battle orientated stories.
Also they only have dragons in a few episodes for a few minutes and Aegon’s dragons are 200 years old so they are so much bigger than we’ll ever see Dany’s due to dragons never stop growing until they die. There is also the point is that will people even root for the Targaryen’s? With the exception of Done, it is very one sided. The other houses either surrender or loose incredibly badly and the Targs don’t exactly have noble intentions. It’s a fascinating story but is it enough to hold the general audience intention with no clear cut good guy to root for.
This probably makes me an anomaly, but I’d prefer a sequel series. I know the lore is rich and vast and wonderful, but I’d be happier with something which explored some of the political aftermath in Westeros whilst exploring somewhere like Sothoros (maybe via Arya).
Don’t get me wrong. I’ll take what I can get. There are some cool prequel concepts to work with.
Yes. GoT has basically lurched from big scene to big scene, the gaudier the better. I would like to see the interpersonal elements and the reveals. There are also historical explanations that would make current events understandable. Your idea is to show what amounts to the anti-GoT which occurred between the eyeball grabbing views.
What TV shows Hercules and Xena did to the Greek myths Gerion’s adventures could do to the Odyssey. And Gerion’s return could be a hilarious take on Odysseus’s return to Penelope. Looking forward to it.
Jaemi Zahra-Hall,
I’m envisaging something almost like American Horror Story; for me it’d be better than having to acclimatise oneself to a completely new cast each season, if they were to do it the way I’m supposing, with a different historical event per season, and for e.g we could have Robert Aramayo as young Ned, and then whoever would be cast as Rhaegar could then also play Aegon The Conqueror, and Robert Aramayo could also play Torrhen Stark the King Who Knelt. I’m thinking, working back; S01 Robert’s Rebellion, S02 Dunk & Egg/Blackfyre Rebellions, S03 Dance Of The Dragons, S04 Aegon’s Conquest, S05 The Doom Of Valyria, S06 The Andals Invasion, S07 The O.G Long Night, S08 The Age Of Heroes/The Dawn Age/The First Men vs The Children Of The Forest
Robert’s Rebellion. Because Charles Dance looked exactly the same 20 years ago as he does now.
The tournament of the False Spring and the knight of the laughing tree.
Ned and Ser Barristan falling for Ashara Dayne and Ned killing Ashara’s brother at the tower of joy.
The rise of littlefinger.
The battle at the Ruby Ford.
The wildlings accidentally waking up the white walkers looking for the horn of winter.
Reasonable budget.
I highly doubt that they’ll make a Robert’s Rebellion series or a sequel series.
Robert’s Rebellion plays such a large part in ASOIAF, and I expect many of the big questions will be resolved by the end of the series. (We already have R+L=J, and I’m sure we’ll see Lyanna willingly running off with Rhaegar, along with the truth about Aegon VI in the books.) Part of me wants to say, “Do it!” since I’ve visualized the Battle of the Trident and the Sack of King’s Landing so many times, but I think their mysterious quality lends itself to the story. They’re legends at this point, and getting the definitive view of the events almost detracts from ASOIAF / GoT. Also, I don’t think GRRM wants to have a series about it.
Also, I’d argue that The Dance of Dragons would make for a much more well-rounded and feasible show than Aegon’s Conquest. While I’d be curious to see what the Burning of Harrenhal and Field of Fire look like onscreen, the whole story is basically a one-sided war where Aegon dominates against everyone (until the First Dornish War, but that’s pretty late in the story). Meanwhile, The Dance of Dragons contains all the GoT trademarks of political scheming, sex, violence, and battles, and features a swatch of different characters. And they wouldn’t have to start with massive, expensive battles. There could be (and is the source material for) a lot of juicy setup with the relationships and questions of succession that would be similar to AGOT / Season 1. And if they spaced the battles out, I think it could definitely be feasible.
Lastly, I have a little theory: GRRM is working on a Dunk & Egg series (probably the one with Jane Goldman) and plans to finish the series via TV instead of in novella form. Writing 15 or so more short books would take a long time, and he may not have the time after finishing ASOIAF. On the other hand, he could finish it much faster on TV, and could make the show basically canon by being the showrunner and/or writing or co-writing most of the episodes.
Hot Pie — Noooooooo Reservations
I vote Blackfyre Rebellion.
Though, I’d be happy to view almost all of it except Robert’s Rebellion. Don’t wanna see it recast. Already know the why and how. Already know the result.
Either way, I’m sure it’ll be good since it’s HBO…minus Vinyl, obviously.
Best Option #5
Get the rights for Temeraire away from Peter Jackson…..
I disagree about Robert’s Rebellion being short. It can be a show with multiple seasons if you start with the Tragedy at Summerhall and also focus on the relationship between Tywin and Aerys and all the Sothron ambitions stuff… all of which would ultimately lead to Robert’s Rebellion. You’ll have a good balance between action/battle scenes (Duskendale, Trident, Sack of King’s Landing, Battle of the Bells etc.), politics (Sothron ambitions, politics in KL, and so on), and some romance. You’d have to change the title though, as this series wouldn’t just cover the rebellion, but all the events during Aerys’ reign that caused it. The Rebellion would be the climactic conflict (like the WW on GoT).
Aegon’s Conquest is very boring to me, since everything went smoothly for him except for Dorne at the end. The main players are also pretty simplistic characters. The show would be short and just comprised of scenes of people either kneeling to the Valyrian Snowflakes or getting burned. I’d prefer Dance of Dragons over it a million times.
Blackfyre Rebellion has potential to be great. Great mix of battles, political intrigue, some romance thrown in there, shitty kings. I live! They could easily have one season for each rebellion or something and end up with a full fledged show.
Has anyone thought about the possibility of a sequel though? Maybe a sequel set many years later featuring the children or grandchildren of the characters who survived on GoT… But that might interfere with GRRM’s planed ending and would probably require a lot of preparation to come up with a story that justifies multiple seasons and $$$. With the other options, you already have characters and outlines.
Speaking of Dorne, I’m hoping there’ll be a scene next season wherein Tyrion, after discovering Ellaria Sand murdered his niece — surely, that won’t be swept under the carpet? — has her and her smarmy brood offed (preferably by dragonfire while he’s piloting Rhaegal or Viserion), ending with a quip about the Lannisters always paying their debts, followed by fans collectively shouting “Feel the Burn!”
I am with the posters above who want to see either sequel(s), or stories set in parts of Planetos that are only hinted at in ASOIAF. Prequels whose endings we already know are of very little interest to me.
Hey WinterPhil,
Love this news and your four ideas, HOWEVER!
You left out one idea that is the best of all, why not take the best parts of all those stories and somehow combine them into one?
You can do this by taking the Dunk and Egg characters, have them be sell swords, and show Westeros mainly through their eyes, and of course adding characters along the way and having some representation beyond the wall.
It may sound a bit corny but I know you must have seen HBO’s ROME (Still my fav series of all time).
I was thinking a Dunk and Egg, ROME style epic series with them being our two main characters as they stumble through Westeros history.
Basically Dunk and Egg would be Lucius Varenus and Titus Pullo, Westeros would be ROME, and the new Game of Thrones series can kind of follow that ROME format on how they tie things together.
In this way, they wouldn’t have to go all out and spend so much money on Dragons all the time. I think, with cleaver writers, this kind of format would make it so from time to time Dunk and Egg get close encounters with Targaryens and dragons every so often, just like Lucius and Pullo get face time with Caesar and Augustus once in a while.
So the epic, fantasy elements will be there at arms reach whenever the writers want to splurge on budget and give us some goose bump scenes.
I don’t know, I will be happy regardless. I am so happy HBO is doing this.
I really hope they combine some of the best story elements from all the GRRM Westeros lore, and do it ROME style with 2 sell sword friends named Dunk and Egg, instead of roman soldiers.
If they get clever writers we can really enjoy the adventures of Dunk and Egg as they experience huge Westeros events, just like we watched Lucius Varenus and Titus Pullo.
Come on guys, what would be better then that? With that format this spin off series can go on for a longtime because GRRM has so many things, and also it would bring back that HBO cult favorite series that was cut to short called ROME.
What would be better then combining a fantasy epic with that HBO ROME type character building/story telling. Anyone who has seen ROME will know exactly what I am talking about.
Combine these two winning formulas HBO, it is a no brainer.
Please HBO? Heh…
Frankly, I say while HBO is focus-grouping this they should shovel some $$ into a series based on Harry Harrison’s Stainless Steel Rat stories, about the gruff yet lovable interplanetary thief, con artist, and all-around cosmic rogue, aka James Bolivar diGriz aka Slippery Jim.
Casting suggestions: Mahershala Ali as the eponymous hero, and Kurt Russell as his shifty boss, Inskipp.
Couldn’t you work in Dunk & Egg with the Blackfyre Rebellion? The Blackfrye rebellion would be epic. But Dunk & Egg as a series you could expand on. I really enjoy Dunk & Egg. So, it’d be fun to just see them go around Westeros getting in all kinds of trouble.
I can easily see the actor who plays young Ned Stark in an action film called “The Fast and the Forehead,” or a martial arts flick called “Fist of Foreheads,” because he has such a prominent forehea… oh forget it, I’ll just see myself out…
1 – Robert’s Rebellion
2 – Dunk & Egg
3 – Dance of the Dragons
4 – Targaryen Conquest/First Dornish War/Sons of the Dragon, as a five year long series. Martin has said Maegor’s reign could easily be three novels.
No to Blackfyre Rebellion: that’s really the *backstory* to Dunk & Egg, which could be told in it through flashback scenes.
Like i said in the previous article,everything but a sequel series,it would totally ruin the ending of GOT and the actors are tired of playing the same characters for almost 10 years not to mention HBO isn’t willing to shell out the cash to bring them back and i refuse to watch something like that if that occurs,i might even drop HBO . I prefer stories that have an end to mean something,that’s why i’m not too in love with the SW sequels right now,to me Return of the Jedi was the perfect end to the franchise .
The more I read the posters’ suggestions, the more I like documenting Gerion’s odyssey. Since it is contemporaneous with the story, all the costumes, scenery, props, etc along with the supporting crew can be reused. Gerion would see new people, so cheap new actors could be hired. Gerion would be in Essos, and we would see new territory added to the Essos we know. Best of all, nobody knows what happened to Gerion, so the writers can make up anything.
I agree, and I wouldn’t at all be surprised if your concept wasn’t at the very tip top of the list.
Second on my list would be a show about Volantis and the tale of The Doom.
Either way, HBO had better hurry up, as it appears the Trump administration wants all channels to air nothing but Fox News 24/7.
Hi friends!
It’s lovely to be back, and I’m very amused, after skimming this thread, to see a few others getting pulled back in. The way last season so clearly ended an act made it weirdly easy to take a little break, no?
And, Wimsey, thank you for the Troy McClure link. That was the correct response.
Anyways!
I’m mostly hoping that Dance of Dragons gets the nod, and also think it should be considered the most likely candidate, considering HBO’s big event for the last DVD release was a public screening of the Dance of Dragons histories and lore. Which is also the only history and/or lore to get a specially long treatment. I call portends.
It would also be very cool if each project tied to the world took a completely different tone. This could well reflect the way the written stories acknowledge the subjectivity of history, as well as let different productions focus on different aspects. Lots of cgi dragons and battles offset by a relative lack of character scenes? Sounds fun. Dunk and Egg movies popping up once a year as slightly-more-family-friendly holiday specials? Awesomeyesplease. And I would 100% be down with an animated show that could afford to have a book-like cast of 1000 minor speaking roles.
And, last thing, GRRM’s involvement, to me, telegraphs that D&E is done in written form (hopefully after he finishes up She-Wolves of Winterfell). The man found success in TV before ASoIaF, and I think it’s quite likely that the success of the show has convinced him that it wouldn’t be so bad to sit back and EP the rest of his creation. Which, I mean…fair.
As I was reading all these comments another issue occurred to me, one of the ‘criticisms’ that GOT gets is the lack of diversity
Aegon and Blackfyre – if they do a series revolving around the Targ dynasties, will we get a lot of white people with platinum wigs fighting with each other for power
or Robertâs Rebellion, Dunk and Egg – set entirely in Westeros
If there are any POC characters will they feel shoehorned in, as they often feel like in GOT. I’m not trying to criticize, as it was written that way, so it is how this world was built. I really don’t have an issue with it in GOT, but it is something that gets pointed to as a ‘problem’ and they have certainly tried to be inclusive in GOT, but since if became an issue half way through the series, their was little they could really do to the main cast. But with a new series, with a more vague source material they could do more.
Is this an issue that you think any new series should try and address or correct? and if so, how do you think they could do that?
Just a thought.
viki,
That is a difficult debate, all the current big houses have already been established in GOT as white with the exception of Dorne as European. So unless they swap everything around and completely disregard continuity in GOT and start anew I honestly don’t see that changing. If they did the Blackfyre rebellion Dorne played a big part in that so if they wrote it well they could have a big opportunity for quite a few POC otherwise you could have people from Essos come over like Shae though they would never have a high position so it probably would feel like shoehorning them in.
It’s like I said a difficult debate people will be angry if they change things from the current GOT series and people will be angry if there aren’t people of color. It’s very hard when GRRM made all of Westeros white as he styled it after old Britain and Essos had a range of different races as he styled it after Europe.
Why not tell all of the different stories. one season, one storyline…
The series would simply be called
“Westeros”
We begin with the conquest if Aegon and end with Robert’s Rebellion. That should be enough for six seasons…
Given that he was supposedly planning 6-12 Dunk & Egg novellas, and that he’s only published 3, he should be nowhere near finished.
The main thing that George’s involvement here tells me is that, in all likelihood, he’s never, ever going to finish the books (either Dunk & Egg or ASOIAF, much less Fire & Blood…)
I think a series on the life of Bryden Bloodraven Rivers starting with his childhood and ending with him being the 3eyed crow training bran would be absolutely awesome. We would get to see so much content and so many characters during his life span, nevermind all the things we could see through his visions of the past present and possibly the future as the three eyed crow. Which in turn could create many other spinoffs or one of episodes.ďťż
Dunk and Egg aren’t going to be meeting any dragons unless the show rewrites Westeros History.
I mentioned on an earlier post that I thought I recalled GRRM saying Dunk and Egg wasn’t in development at HBO. I finally found the post it was from but reading it again I’m not sure what he actually means.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/527454.html#comments
So is GRRMs No and No actual answers to the examples asked about or an answer to the question “can you say…” but if the latter why say it twice?
Dance of dragons or blackfyre are only options in my eyes. Blackfyre could be told in a similiar fashion to vikings with each season covering a different rebellion over time so we would see all the characters age and grow. It could incorporate dunk and egg into the middle seasons and maybe a young varys im the final seasons hehehe.
Dance of dragons would be great but expensive. Although I think there are ways to budget it. For one they already have the sets wont have to film in as many locations can hire unknown actors. There are a few key dragon sequences obviously that would be huge like the storming of the dragon pit and the dragon fight over the gods eye but lit would definetly bring in the casual viewer. TITS AND DEAGONS!
Just as long as it’s nothing from TWOIAF.
Honestly, I haven’t read much of the Dance of Dragons material that wasn’t in the core series of Asoiaf. So The Rogue Prince, and the Queen and the Princess (or whatever it’s called) nor have I thoroughly read World of Ice and Fire. I know that people constantly state that it’s filled with dragon battles, but while that may be true, it doesn’t mean that one would have to happen each and every episode. The interpersonal drama is what usually carries GrrM’s works, so that should be enough to fill most episodes. And there should be plenty of build-up arcs between physical clashes where we see tension between factions rise and where we thus don’t need to see the dragons at all.
So I don’t think, even with a limited knowledge on the material, it would be such a budgetswamp. People need to realize that there’s plenty of story to tell inbetween fights.
And those dramatic scenes inbetween fights might even make stuff like Roberts Rebellion or the Conquest drawn out a lot longer than just one season. There’s lots happening, but we mostly get to know about the battles/highlights, so there’s plenty to elaborate and actually make it a narrative instead of a short history where we hop from one battle to the next..
I’d really like either the Dance, Robert’s, or the Blackfyre rebellions. Heck they could even shoehorn in Dunk and Egg’s Mystery Knight if they wanted to. And the name for the show would be easy to pick: “Blackfyre”.
Rhaegon Starkgaryen,
I like your idea of a Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven > 3ER show. However, wouldn’t they have to “retcon” something?
I thought in S4e10 the 3ER said something about being around for “1000 years.” Wouldn’t that be irreconcilable with the Books! chronology of Bloodraven’s life span ?
(I’m going to go back and make sure I’m not confused. Everybody uses “1000 years” in the show as if it’s the standard unit of recorded history.)
No F-ing Prequel…!! What’s the point when we all know what happens afterwards?
Shebear of Mormont,
The only reason i don’t want a sequel is because i don’t trust anyone else except G.R.R.M to continue the storylines of the current characters . We ‘ve seen what happens to characters without George’s watchful eye ! *cough* Stannis *cough*. Seeing more of Arya is always exciting but if George thinks there is nothing more we need to know about her then is for the best !
Ulfie,
Then what’s the point of having so many historical movies and series ?Elizabeth ,Victoria,Tudors, 300,Troy ,Jesus of Nazareth. Or fairytale movies? snowwhite ,beauty and the beast !
Why not pick up ROME again? HBO, do it!!
I quite like the idea of a series that gives the background to the Blackfyre Rebellions (the courts of Aegon IV and Daeron II) and includes the First Blackfyre Rebellion – followed by an adaptation of Dunk and Egg.
Konna,
“Seeing more of Arya” would be exciting ….
I’d watch a series about the continuing adventures of Arya and The Hound. Their scenes together have been the best on the show. Rory McGann and Maisie Williams play off each other wonderfully.
It’s a pipe dream, I know. I doubt Maisie would want to be locked in to another multi-year series playing Arya. Then again, throw enough money her way + massive infusions to her favorite charities and she might bite.
Yes!!! I used to always say I could watch a show called Arya and The Hound. I would rewatch season 3 or 2 just to watch those episodes with them acting as father and daughter traveling through the Westerosi countryside absolutely the 2 characters with the best chemistry. I’m hoping The Hound finds his way to be in the services of House Stark because he obviously has a soft spot for both Stark daughters…
The question is incoherent as asked, so it’s hard to say how GRRM interpreted it.
If there are going four projects in development I would love to see some variation. Not just four prequel series that feel like Game of Thrones. I’d be excited to see a few different formats, a mini series, a movie, a cartoon would be great, but unlikely. If they did animation, and I’m either like to see an action packed computer graphic series like Clone Wars/Rebels, or a Studio Ghibli-style take on Dunk & Egg.
I would bet money that one of the projects that GRRM is involved with is a Fire & Blood Targ series.
Also, don’t get caught up in prequel ideas. I would imagine that Benioff and Weiss are eager to expand forward just as much if not more than backwards so they can put their own take on it. I could see a series focusing on one of the characters or a group of characters after the main series ends.
That was from an era where the Simpsons was simply smoking.
I’m going to be a broken MP3 here, but, again: what is the story? What made SoI&F so appealing was the story. The “epic fantasy” plot-elements are not why the show is critical and commercial success: the stories about the internal politics of external politics are why people like the show. And that works so well because of the strong parallelisms in how the main characters evolve within each season and over all of the seasons.
(For all of the “tits and dragons” talk, no other shows with fantasy elements like dragons have been anywhere near this successful, and the other successful shows with “tits” are strong character dramas like GoT.)
So, how can that possibly happen with Robert’s Rebellion? What would be the common direction(s) of evolution for the main characters? What would be the common dilemmas faced by those characters?
This is the big problem with prequels: to provide the characters with these commonalities, you have to devise the plot elements to set up those commonalities. However, a prequel already has the plot elements in place via “faux history”: and that is absolutely backwards when creating a story.
My bet is that the younger stars of GoT will be trying very hard to find a lot of very different roles after the series ends.
As for sequels with these characters, who’s to say that the only thing that a sequel could show won’t just the the Night King enjoying another snowy day? đ
I’m usually not too keen on spinoffs/prequels/sequels because all too often there’s a wiff of “let’s keep milking the winning formula for more money”, so there isn’t as much original, creative input. That said, if a spinoff is creatively bold enough to break from the original series and become its own thing, fine. The original show provides some backstory/world building but the new show could forge its own way, not just be an Appendix to the original show.
That’s why I don’t like the idea of a “Robert’s Rebellion” show, though many above have pointed out many interesting things that could be expanded upon. The problem is that RR is not its own story, it’s already incorporated in the main ASoIaF/GoT story. And there’s the problem of who’d play some of the main characters after the iconic performances by the likes of Charles Dance as Tywin… Or NCW and Lena Heady… Imagine some 18yr olds playing teenage Jaime and Cersei and their relationship… urgh, no. (That said, Robert Aramayo was very good as young Ned last season.)
Aegon’s conquest doesn’t seem like a very interesting story to me. Guy with dragons conquers a continent. Harrenhal and Field of Fire. Torrhen Stark kneels. And…? OK, you could expand on the Seven Kingdoms right before the conquest, Aegon’s relationship with his sisters/wives, what happened after (Dornish wars? Maegor the Cruel?)
Blackfyre Rebellion (I take it the article means the first one, there were several, each less substantial than the first one.) There could be great stories and characters to be gleaned from that. Aegon the Unworthy and the Great Bastards – some HC sibling rivalry going on there. Political intrigues, some battles. No dragons, so easier on the CGI budget.
Dunk & Egg seems more of a YA adventure/road trip/friendship thing, could work as a series where the duo encounter a new place/situation every episode or two. It has none of the epicness of GoT, though. It could, though, be combined with the Blackfyre stuff – the first D&E story takes place some time after the first Blackfyre rebellion and the second one is actually the subject matter of the third D&E story, and apparently what GRRM has planned is for D&E play an important part in the later Blackfyre rebellions.
The article doesn’t mention my favourite for a spinoff: the Dance of Dragons, or a Targaryen civil war around 130 AC, so nearly 170 years before the action in the main series. It’s in the same universe, GoT has “world-built” it, but it’s distant enough that it wouldn’t be too hampered by the main series.
I haven’t read GRRM’s two short stories about this period, but the hints in the main books and the account in The World of Ice and Fire “history” book provide an idea of court intrigues, powerful houses vying for position, sibling rivalry, love, sex, betrayal… murders, battles… and finally a Stark to sort it all out!
Yes, it has dragons, but it need not be all that expensive. Clever writers can write around the dragons and only show them up close and personal in really key scenes. Otherwise they could be shown in the background, or even implied. For instance, the storming of the Dragonpit could be shown mostly from the outside, the angry smallfolk mob advancing on it or some such. Plus, GoT has already done the conceptualisation/creation of dragons, Dance of Dragons could just pick up where GoT leaves off. CGI is developing in leaps and bounds, so what was difficult and expensive in 2010 won’t be so much in 2018 or 2020 or whenever this spinoff would be made.
All this said, my favourite idea might just be:
Hot Pie and the Great Westerosi Bake-off.
(hat tip to Ten Bears – or was it somebody else? Apologies if I’ve got the originator wrong.)
Cersei’s Brain,
And of course,
Sean C.,
Totally agreed, and as I wrote to Cersei’s Brain,
Catspaw Assassin,
Brilliant!!!
talvikorppi,
Fans loved the actress who portrayed young Cersei in season 5. I definitely think it’s possible to find good actors for the parts.
The way you wrote about Dance of Dragons is exactly as I envision it. I also 100% agree about Aegon’s Conquest… it’s such a boring story the more you look at it.
Wimsey,
You’ve got to be kidding me with these questions. Isn’t it obvious? The story is basically the rise and fall of Aerys II, with focus on his relationship with Tywin, the plotting between the other lords (Sothron ambitions), and the coming of age story of the new generation: Ned, Robert, Jaime, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Cersei etc. The last bunch can age up on the show just like the Stark kids on GoT or can be slightly aged up from their book counterparts like Kit and Emilia’s characters. With some tweaks in the timeline and some adjusted ages (just like on GoT) and maybe time jumps between seasons, this could end up being a solid series.
I don’t know what epic fantasy elements you’re talking about. I didn’t even mention these as a part of RR. Just battle scenes, which are a huge draw anyway. Character development is important and the characters mentioned above are very interesting and fleshed out and there are several parallels between the characters worth exploring.
Many fans make the mistake of simplifying RR to just the Tourney at Harrenhall or ToJ, but it’s much more than that.
viki,
Totally agreed; diversity isn’t an issue within the world of Westeros itself, but it’s always wonderful to see all the different people across the Narrow Sea. This is one of the things I was thinking about (but didn’t elaborate on) when I posted in the first thread about this (copied and pasted below).
I would most love to see Old Valyria and the onset of the Doom. There is so much potential in developing and showing Essos! So many places we have seen only in passing, or merely heard of: Asshai of the Shadows, Yi Ti, what are now the Nine Free Cities, etc. Among other things, I would love to see the founding of Braavos and the Iron Bank; I do realize that was hundreds of years before the Doom, but hey, thatâs what flashbacks are for. Essentially, I would really enjoy seeing not only what caused the Doom itself, the spark for the central story we now know and love, but also what shaped the lands and cultures that, in turn, shaped the characters we now know and love.
That is plot, not story. The story comes from the commonalities in the character evolution: and it is not obvious what that would be here.
The Washington Post has a similar take on this as many of us do! Where is Troy McClure when you need him….
Rhaegon Starkgaryen,
Hmmm… I really like this idea. Maybe have his life serve as an “anchor” for something like Tales of Westeros? Then the series wouldn’t be beholden to a single time period or historical arc; each episode could be about a different singular event in Westerosi history, seen through his eyes.
I think you’re raising an issue that is an issue, mainly in the US. GoT is global and it seems this issue is not an issue in most other countries, even in ones where brown people watch it.
GRRM wrote Westeros to liken medieval western Europe, so the people would be white. Ranging from the Nordic type blond of hair, pale of skin, to the Mediterranean “olive” skinned and black-haired.
GRRM even wrote Lyseni, Norvosi and Qartheen are pale-skinned, (often also blond-haired). The show deviated. Xaro Xhoan Daxos (Qartheen), Areo Hotah (Norvosi) and Salladhor Saan (Lyseni) are all played by black actors in the show, and well.
I understand the struggle of US actors who are not white to get good, leading roles, not just stereotyped supporting ones, but I just don’t understand this criticism levelled at GoT, the show which has given “white” roles to non-whites and has the most diverse and international cast of any mainstream show I know of. Or are foreign actors such as Carice van Houten and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau not counted because they’re white?
Maybe I shouldn’t have waded in, this is a very sensitive issue in the US. I was just trying to point out that it is not an issue in most other countries that are mad fans of GoT. Maybe all the other countries are racist knuggle-draggers, or maybe they see beyond a person’s skin colour and/or think art does not have to conform to US sensibilities.
talvikorppi,
There are numerous US organizations that make it a priority to dig for anything that may have the appearance of racism no matter the context. The media has to run reports on it or then they too are another story.
talvikorppi,
Excellent commentary on the worldwide audience for GoT vs. the U.S. audience in particular; hence my own response to Viki, in which I suggested that my own wish for a spinoff (seeing much more of GRRM’s world, specifically the lands and peoples of Essos) would grant opportunities to a more diverse cast.
At some risk of receiving an online flagellation, I would argue that the raging battle over diversity in American film and TV is a symptom of a far deeper problem in the U.S.âthat of institutionalized racismâand, in my opinion, far too much energy that could be directed at deconstructing centuries-old systems of economic and educational disenfranchisement is instead being directed at less pressing problems. Thatâs not to say that lack of representation is not a problem in Hollywood: it most certainly is, and needs to be combatted. In an ideal world, minorities/disabled people/transgender people, etc. will be cast simply because they are part of the mosaic of humanity, not because they are minorities/disabled people/transgender people. I despise the sort of casting that either 1) panders to political correctness or 2) uses a minority/disabled person/transgender person as a vehicle through which the straight, white cisgender person learns a valuable life lesson. In that vein, given that for historical reasons the U.S. has an incredibly diverse population, stories with majority-minority casts (e.g., Fences) should be marketed as American stories as much as they are âblackâ stories, or âworking-classâ stories, or whatever.
On that note, the recent critical and commercial success of Fences, Hidden Figures, and Moonlight should have amply demonstrated that American audiences will go see films centered on African-Americans if the stories are well told.
(Whew. This is the problem with drinking two cups of coffee on a Saturday morn⌠er, afternoon.)
What drives me crazy is when diversity activists demand historically inaccurate representations just for the sake of diversity. I have a number of black, Hispanic, and Asian friends who are huge fans of both the LotR movies and GoT; when the issue of diversity has been raised, theyâve been offended by the idea that minorities ought to be cast for the express purpose of diversifying a film or show. To them that is the very definition of tokenism: Hollywood executivesâ either 1) being unwilling to finance stories about minorities or 2) being unwilling to cast minorities in stories where they do not serve as a vehicle for a âgreater lessonâ⌠but throwing them an insulting bone by casting them in period pieces expressly set in âwhiteâ environments.
After all, weâd be really confused if we saw a European actor in a film set in southern Africa during the time of Charlemagne, wouldnât we?
And donât get me going on the OscarsSoWhite controversy, and the idea that x number of minorities ought to garner x percentage of award nominations in any given awards season. I looked at the numbers when all that shite hit the fan, and calculated that Hispanics and Asians were far more screwed in terms of both onscreen representation and award nominations than African-Americans were that year.
/end rant
5/6/2017
Really like the “Blackfyre” series idea. Has a lot of potential.
talvikorppi,
I understand that, but it is an issue and one that the show runners have tried to address where they could (as you yourself mentioned) so they are certainly aware of the issue and have tried their best to be inclusive. I only mention it as a topic of discussion, I would assume it would be something any development team (especially those who live in the US) would be aware of and would try and address early on to avoid such ‘problems’ again.
Again, I say ‘problems’ as ultimately it is a minor one to me, but then again I’m older and used to not see as much diversity in US movies and tv, even though it does get an eye-roll from me sometimes when shows so obviously wants to have a diverse group that they are silly with it. But this would be a new show with the opportunity to do more – and I was wondering how you think it could/would/should be done.
For example, Doran’s wife, in the books was black, its been a while, so correct me if i’m wrong, but I thought she was from the summer iles and dark-skinned. There could be other ‘overseas’ brides, so to speak. A second or third son, fights in Essos and bring home and foreign bride.
Wolfish,
I would agree that a series focusing on Valyria and Essos would be intriguing and possibly not too terribly expensive to produce.
I agree, thus my eye-rolls whenever it is done in a silly way. But there are always travelers/traders/adventurers/fighters and people mix, even back then – we see people travel to and from Westeros all the time in the show, is isn’t inconceivable that some traveling and settling in places other than your place of birth didn’t happen (Shakespeare’s Othello), not common perhaps, but not unheard of.
This is kind of what I meant. Slavery and thence the treatment of African Americans, and by extention, all Americans who’re not “white”, is a sensitive issue. It’s a national shame that the people in the US have to confront and work through. It’s not helped by some people still holding basically 18th, 19th century slave-owners’ views.
My country isn’t squeeky kleen. Our tribes probably had slaves, or thralls (like the Ironborn), but not anymore when written records begin in the 12th, 13th century.
The English established the slave economy in what were to become the southern states of the US. This was in the modern age, not some dark middle ages or the Renaissance era. No, 18th century, the enlightment era. A time when slavery had long been unthinkable in Europe. Those pesky English saw a profit in exploiting the natural resources of the new colonies with free (=slave) labour. The fathers of a nation who threw off the yoke of English domination and established the US never thought to throw off the yoke of slavedom. The slave economy only ended after the American Civil War (1860s) and it took another 100 years to gain civil rights for the descendants of slaves. So, yes, I can see why this is a sensitive issue in the US even today. It also keeps festering because the “WASP” elite don’t want to honestly confront the past.
Take Germany. Nazis are the incarnation of evil in the modern times. Germany, the German people, have confronted their past, admitted wrongdoings, dealt with it and moved on. In contrast, the US is still in denial about the treatment of slaves or the “first nations” (the original inhabitants of the lands now US) and can’t really move on.
Or maybe my analysis is wrong. I’ve only lived in the US for a couple of years and my view is only that of a semi-informed outsider… But, then, most of the world ARE outsiders.
I think the US national trauma of slavery in the modern era has influenced GRRM to write Dany as this great breaker of chains, free’er of slaves, the ultimate abolutionist. The ultimate, morally right thing to do, especially from a liberal US view. GRRM also makes it known it’s not that easy. Replacing a slave-based economy doesn’t happen overnight, especially not if you haven’t got a robust new plan in place, which Dany never had.
Aegon’s Conquest would be the most boring thing imaginable. It’s really just a bunch of battles. I feel anything interesting in a Blackfyre Rebellions series, (the Black/Red division in Westeros, the mystery of Bloodraven, etc.) can be done just as well in a Dunk and Egg series but with fun characters to center on too.
As to the possible spinoffs. I think it was in the earlier thread where some people floated the idea of Nymeria’s story and how great it would be.
Groan.
Not Nymeria, Arya’s direwolf, but Nymeria the Rhoynish “warrior queen”. Groan. It’s too close to Xena the warrior princess. Plus it would incorporate two of my least favourite locations: Essos and Dorne. Groan.
Fortunately, I don’t think it’s in the works. The spinoff will take place in Westeros, that’s the location most fans identify with.
Anyone asking for a sequel series–especially about specific characters–is making an awful lot of assumptions about how the story ends. Personally the last thing I’d want to see is a sequel. It would also be the biggest risk for HBO as it would have to be all-original material and if it failed, it would be seen as a blight on the legacy of GoT by fans and HBO alike. It’s not happening.
Of the likely spinoff ideas I’m hoping for either the Blackfyre Rebellion or the Dance of Dragons, but leaning more towards the latter. The DoD has already been mentioned a considerable number of times in the series so the audience is at least somewhat familiar with it, and I’m sure it’s gotten a lot of people very curious. It’s also the most GoT-like in nature, and therefore probably the safest bet to cash in on the show’s success.
Wimsey,
” …..As for sequels with these characters, whoâs to say that the only thing that a sequel could show wonât just [be] the Night King enjoying another snowy day? ?”
——————-
——————–
With the theme song, “Walking in a Winter Wonderland.”
Which reminds me.. At some point, another poster (and I) were mulling going back and retrieving all the community members’ suggestions for a compilation album [tentative, working title: “The Night King: Love Songs for a Long Night” – because “‘Ol Blue Eyes is Back” was already taken by Frank Sinatra. ] The last time I thought about retrieving and listing in the Forum section all of the great suggested song titles, I found that the Forum pages were down for repair.
_________
Reminder to self: Add….
– “Heart of Glass” – Blondie
– “Strangers in the Night” –
F. Sinatra
You’ve hit on a niggling little pet peeve of mine re: GRRM’s writing: He uses ‘teak’ as if it were a really dark brown wood, almost black. Whereas anyone who has ever lived through a period when ‘Danish modern’ furniture was trendy should know that teakwood is a blonde/golden brown color! “Her skin was the color of an Ikea coffee table…”
But the one that really makes my teeth hurt is when he writes of somebody ‘trodding’ along the road. No, George: tread, trod, has/have/had trodden, treading. It sounds like ‘treading’ and ‘plodding’ have merged together in his head, like one of Lewis Carroll’s ‘portmanteau words.’ Coining one deliberately is okay, as long as you let your readers know that’s what you’re doing! Otherwise it just sounds like no copyeditor ever laid eyes on the manuscript.
But I digress.
As Maisie Williams herself has said, “Good things must come to an end or theyâre not good anymore.” (see http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-maisie-williams-arya-jon-snow-emmys-1201836344/)
And I recall she’s also said that she’s looking forward to greater freedom to choose roles (and potentially a move into directing) once GOT finishes. I can’t find that particular reference, but this article discusses such topics: http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-arya-stark-emmys-interview-1201799468/
So as the younger actor originally mentioned, I doubt she’d be up for more years of playing Arya, although I suppose a cameo in a sequel could be a possibility. (Also, what character is easier to recast than Arya? Just slip on a different face … but finding an actor of the same quality would be the challenge.)
“Chillin’ with the Night King” is a show I’d be happy to watch. I dig the Night King’s mellow vibe, and as per another discussion above, such a show could work really well with a soundtrack of old standards and smooth jazz.
Wimsey,
Yes, the younger stars will betrying very hard to find different roles” after GoT ends. Maisie Williams said as much in an interview about a month ago, in which she expressed gratitude for her good fortune in being able to play Arya but was also looking forward to life after GoT. She even said she was now financially secure enough to have the freedom to travel the world for three years if she wanted to.
That’s why I think it would take substantial inducements to convince her to continue on in a sequel – if that were even an option.
I also figure that none of the young actors would want to be “typecast”, eg, Maisie wouldn’t want to be restricted to “feisty tomboy” roles. Yet, just like William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, someday the child actors will probably look back and consider it a blessing that they were able to play such iconic characters.
Same thing with Kit H and Emilia C: there would be worse things in life than to be greeted with cries of “The King in the North!” and “Khaleesi!” in public.
(I wonder if fans come up to Rory McCann with unsolicited BBQ chicken? Or just a passing “F-ck the king” ?).
Bufferzone,
We must have telepathy. I just posted comments, and saw you wrote the same thing – only better. ?
For whatever reasons, SciFi seems to leave people more typecast than do other roles, at least historically. There are far fewer examples of successful fantasy shows & films over the years, but one would think that the concern is just as big there. Still, this has been less-true in recent years, though. You mention Star Trek, and that’s a great example. Doctor Who used to be death on careers, too: basically, your only gig after that was SciFi conferences. However, actors from the New Series have all gone on to do well after Doctor Who: and that might reflect the fact that the show came back as a character-oriented one, with the Doctor now a proper protagonist rather than a hero and with the companions also protagonists and (gasp!) real people.
To this end, I think that GoT will not hurt the youngsters too much: they all have audition tapes showing a wide range of emotions, etc. Still, they will want a lot of stuff in “normal” costumes set in modern scenes to go with this.
However, I think that any sequel to GoT would meet the same fate, the little-remembered sequel to Babylon 5. The B5 fans were thrilled for it: but they were the only ones who watched it, and I think that it was cancelled without all the episodes even airing. Similarly, Joey spun off of the hugely popular Friends: and it didn’t last a year. B5 had a hardcore fandom comparable to GoT’s and Friends had an even bigger audience: but neither of those was enough to help a sequel.
Bufferzone,
“Chillin’ with the Night King” (because you “dig his mellow vibe”) with “a soundtrack of old standards and smooth jazz.”
I love it!!!
BTW: Forum section still down. Notice says it’s “coming back soon.” When it does, maybe we can all compile out playlists and album titles there. âď¸
Ten Bears,
It’s very kind of you to say so – but actually, I just have a small drone with a cloaking device hovering over your shoulder so I can see what you type đ
(Hmmmm… that may have gone to the creepy place. NEVER GO TO THE CREEPY PLACE!)
Wimsey,
Continuing the telepathy theme: when I posted my comment above, I was thinking that Karen Gillan’s career post-Doctor Who could serve as a role model for Maisie’s.
After her stint as Amy Pond on Doctor Who finished, Karen Gillan took on roles in some small films, and has since gradually worked her way into a position where she’s taken significant roles in blockbusters (e.g. Nebula in GOTG), leading roles in smaller films, and – after making some well-received short films – has recently directed her first feature.
If I were one of the young cast on GoT I’d be looking, wanting and hoping for another big part on a hit television series. Not an easy thing to guess on, but great to get right.
The ‘blockbuster movie’ industry kind of sucks right now with just remakes, sequels and rehashed junk with millions for cgi thrown at it. They make the money but man is there a lot of hot garbage being thrown out. We spend two hours going to watch bad writing and stories soaked in special effects to dull the horrible taste. The best writing and creativity in the business is going through cable television shows now. The last two hours of GoT S6 was better than anything I saw in a theatre last year. So yeah, actors can chase after movies, fill their resumes with a variety of random projects and make money, but is that very fulfilling? I have to wonder.
I actually did notes and beats on all of this.
The North Remembers…
Clob,
You are right, it’s nice to have more freedom and do a movie here and there that allows them to challenge themselves in different ways but if they want a steady income doing a show has it’s advantages. I have noticed in the last few years actors that were once only in movies have started more and more going to TV Shows not normal TV of course but the channels like HBO, Netflix etc that the audience has to pay for to watch.
That’s quite true – I mentioned movies rather than TV because I was thinking of the path Karen Gillan has followed.
If Steven Moffat had stayed on as showrunner I could see Maisie taking on the role of Doctor Who at some stage, but that seems less likely with the new showrunner – and the leads’ time commitments on Doctor Who make GOT look like a walk in the park!
Bufferzone,
Billie Piper, Freema Agyeman, Arthur Darvill, and Jenna Coleman all have managed to get pretty good roles after being Doctor Who companions, too: which means that there are more successful alum from the 10 years of the New Series than there were from the 27 years of the original series!
The former Doctors also have fared much better than their predecessors, too.
Wimsey,
I enjoy the Babylon 5 reference, but I believe Crusade was as good as cancelled before it ever aired a single episode. Ratings ultimately meant little. TNT re-evaluated its metrics and was reportedly unhappy with the fact that Babylon 5’s solid base of devotees rarely seemed to watch any other programming on the network. Nowadays, I doubt very much that any network would be bothered by this, because solid bases of devotees are harder to come by for cable and broadcast in the age of streaming. In any case, Crusade was effed before it ever launched, and JMS might say “just as well”, given how disillusioned with TNT he became during all the struggles in the production phase.
The saga of Babylon 5’s failed attempts at forging ahead with an expanded universe post-finale is a fascinating, depressing read. Crusade failed. Legend of the Rangers failed. The Lost Tales was meant to be the first of several DVD gigs, but only the one of them was ever made.
At least we have the novels to cover the loose ends.
talvikorppi,
I knew it was someone from Dorne đ thanks for the correction
At the risk of aging myself, I will venture to say that the SF we grew up with (especially “Star Trek”) strove to present a world so utopian in its lack of racism and sexism that the people who participated in it could not be thought of (at least in industry terms, and in the publics’s mind) in any other terms. Nichelle Nichols (the original Lt. Uhura) is arguably the most recognizable African-American actress in the world, and one of the most recognizable American actresses in the world, period. I suppose it’s only fitting that people in SF tend to be typecast, as they are often representative of an ideal future where people are selected for their talent and little else.
(Sigh)
John will settle down North of where the wall, Bran will be Lord of Winterfell, Sansa and Tyrion will reside in either Casterly Rock or The Tyrell’s Garden, Sam and Gilly will take over Horn Hill, Gendry at Storms End, and Arya will sail West.
I would follow a spinoff of Arya’s adventures as far West as West would go !
Bufferzone,
Well, would Maisie’s character Ashildr/Me qualify as a “Doctor”? I kind of liked how they left her character, with the possibility of future guest appearances.
Some people were hoping she’d be the Doctor’s new companion. (Others were clamoring for a Clara-Me spin-off.)
I’m looking forward to seeing Maisie in the “Mary Shelley” movie that’s due out later this year. She has a supporting role as Mary Shelley’s (Elle Fanning) friend. I don’t know how big a role it is. Stephen Dillane plays Mary Shelley’s father, so it’ll at least be worth checking out to see Stannis and Arya in the same film.
If Thoros were to rez. her, I honestly think a Stoneheart spinoff could work as a limited 4-6 part miniseries without breaking continuity up to the point the BWB reconnect with The Hound.
Beric could simply realise it was a mistake and euthanise her himself before that point arises, speaking nothing of their time offscreen in seasons 3-6 (which basically happens in the show, anyway)
Also gets to show Nymeria, the raging war in the Riverlands, copious rebel infighting, and a conflicted Thoros and Beric in the face of some disenchanted BWB (e.g Lem) who may have started off half decent before becoming murderopus renegades. Hell you could even have McShane’s later peacenik character show up as a Frey general to give that massacre context.
Also has some great casting opportunities (David Thewlis as Raymund Frey?) if they were to show a more complex, detailed take on House Frey over the 2D villains in bad hats we’ve had to date, e.g: a more sympathetic Merrett battling alcoholism and his own family politics.
In a way, LSH becomes more tragic if she begins and ends as The BWB’s dirty secret and the Starks don’t even come to know of her existence.
I repeat: the BWB are missing for three seasons, never mention why, and back in the days when the writing team were still hedging their best over whether to adapt this, the show efectively in-built the possibility by scripting Sansa mentioning her mother’s body being thrown into the river at the start of season 4.
From a story point of view, it’s kind of baby-steps how easy this would be for any half-decent screenwriter to accomodate. Masses of story potential, great visuals, Gothic atmosphere, and a chance to properly revisit the aftermath of the show’s most iconic happening without repeating events we’ve already seen on screen.
But will it happen? No. No, it won’t.
A spin off doesn’t mean it has to be written, they could come up with their own story past the main series and go from there. I personally have no preference as I love the world of Ice and Fire and still so many mysteries and unanswered questions and theories. I’d watch what comes next đ
I’m all for a Blackfyre series, but nothing in old Valyria itself. I like the mystery there of a lost great civilization.
Definitely nothing on LSH! The show did well to not add her to the story. Bad decision IMO on GRRM’s part.
I think the biggest problem with a Roberts Rebellion prequel is the total lack of drama. Even non book readers know exactly how the big moments end. Nothing would be exciting for larger audiences.
I’m in the minority, but I’d love to see a series with the Andals arriving and fighting the first men.
Azor Asshai,
“Cheers” begat Frasier” and “Star Trek” was followed years later by “Star Trek: The Next Generation.” Both were great spinoffs/sequels.
Admittedly, they’re the exception to the rule. But with good writers, spinoffs and sequels can be as good or better than the originals.
Wimsey,
“That is plot, not story. The story comes from the commonalities in the character evolution: and it is not obvious what that would be here….”
—————
Can I impose on you to explain (again) the difference between “story” and “plot.” I always get them confused. I know you’ve explained the difference in the past; it seems to have evaporated from my brain.
My dumbed-down (and probably inaccurate) understanding is that “plot” is “this happens, then that happens, and then finally something else happens.”
“Story” is what the tale is about: a guy or girl learning that X isn’t what it seemed and Y is the truth, causing the guy or girl to change, adapt or evolve.
I’m missing something; in my mind, seems like “story” and “plot” frequently overlap.
I hope it will be Dunk and Egg!
Aegon’s conquest would be boring (as it is a mirror of Dany’s conquest and we already know everything about it). Robert’s rebellion would be boring too (we already know everything, since it is the backstory of GOT). And the Blackfyre rebellion is already the setting of Dunk and Egg.
Dunk and Egg would be perfect : amazing characters, great setting (the story goes in all the places not seen in GOT), some links with GOT but not too much, many unsolved mysteries… And who doesn’t want to see Bloodraven, one of the best characters of this whole universe??
Plot is what happens. In modern tales, story is some commonality emerging from how the characters evolve in response to those events, each other, etc. (In older stories, it was the commonalities in how plot-lines are resolved, usually with some “moral” right/wrong being key.) Story, like melody, is very much a gestalt concept: it is what is created by the parts that transcends the sum of the parts. Plot, like the notes and chords in a song, is just parts.
The statement that I remember most vividly from my ill-spent youth is (and I am paraphrasing a third of a century later!) that both history and literature have plots: but history creates no stories where as literature does. For example, WWII is not in anyway a story. The primary characters of the War, e.g., Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler and Stalin, do not in any way all evolve in ways comparable to each other in any manner at all like how Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, etc. are evolving in the books. Heck, Roosevelt arbitrarily died before the climax! But that is another big difference: history (all plot, no story) is very arbitrary: stuff just happens, and many of the great “plots” in history are resolved by people who are not present at the outset.
Here is a good example with a plot-driven (rather than character-driven) story: Tolkien said that Lord of the Rings is a story about Death and Immortality. If you step back and see what “Death and Immortality” describes about Lord of the Rings, then you are seeing the story.
Ja,
This is exactly what I’m referring to when I say everyone’s ideas for sequel series are based on their own assumptions about how GoT ends. The scenario you described is impossibly, cartoonishly happy for this story. No way every single fan-favorite/major character survives.
Stop mentally turning this into a fairy tale, people, or you’re going to be incredibly disappointed when you don’t get every little thing you hoped for.
How in the world would Gendry end up at Storm’s End? Jaime Lannister is the rightful heir to Storm’s End now that Tommen is dead, as he is the eldest male of the senior line among the closest relations to the Baratheons. Tyrion is Jaime’s heir. So, whoever Tyrion’s heir is (some other Lannister cousin) is the “heir in waiting” for Storm’s End.
(The fact that “who is heir now that Stannis is attainted?” in either show or books at this point tells us that this will be a minor detail at best; remember, firing a gun that was not hung as Chekhov asked is basically Deus ex Machina!)
Indeed, this is sound advice! And when you see the end, ask yourself: does this follow from what GRRM, B & W setup? If you are holding out for endings that have not been setup by the show at this point, then you have not lost the forest for the trees, you have lost the forest for the bigfoot you imagined seeing among the trees!
I want HBO to post a countdown for the Game of Thrones Season 7 trailer…
I hope it’s very soon!!!!!!!!!!
Wait… you actually think that the story is headed in the direction to end with a Lannister as lord of Storm’s End because as it stands now they can lay claim?
The ‘fate’ of Storm’s End in the books is still very much up in the air. Changes and/or eliminations of characters and arcs on the show have made it less of a topic, but it may come into play as the war wages. Jaime as heir to and rightful lord of Storm’s End can only be maintained as long as Cersei remains in power and forces it to be so. Legitimacy of her children as Baratheon is already questioned, disputed, so without power there is no way Jaime, or Cersei for that matter, will retain any right to Storm’s End. Jaime knows his kids weren’t Baratheon. Tyrion knows his niece and nephews weren’t Baratheon. Most people know it. Even if they were a new ruler would likely strip it away.
If the story ends up with a new King or Queen on the throne it’s likely that person will appoint a new lord. On the show who is most likely to earn that title? It’s certainly not going to be “Leonard” Lannister or some other random cousin.
So the question, “how in the world would Gendry end up at Storm’s End?” has a very plausible answer on the show as far as many are concerned. There wouldn’t be any confusion on the viewers end how it happened because they’ve set it up as a possibility. There isn’t an Edric Storm on the show, just Gendry as the lone, true, surviving Baratheon heir.
Clob,
I second this post. đ
Yeah, but you understood it. That’s how language works. Put down the dictionary; it was invented to distinguish the upper class when they were pissy that poor people were learning to read.
Wolfish,
Really appreciate your rant on race. I think it is spot on in regards to the forces and issues behind the reality and debate about representation. Tokenism is nonsense.
That said, I’ve seen enough traditionally white theater roles get crushed by people of color that I just don’t have sympathy for someone who can’t get over it. Sometimes the best actor for the job just isn’t going to look like the actors playing their parents. Granted, theater productions inherently demand more suspension of disbelief, but that’s just it: suspension of disbelief is super possible. Especially when you’re dealing with casting fantasy.
I was hoping that the Iron Islands might be cast as predominantly Asian. It wouldn’t be inconsistent with the physical descriptions given (ie, the common Greyjoy feature is black hair), and it would emphasize the notion that their culture is distinct enough that other characters literally refer to the Ironborn as a different race.
Likewise, I was thinking an Aegon’s Conquest with the Targaryens being people of color would be awesome. In a sense, it would more accurate to GRRM’s story; Valyrians had an incredibly distinct look, and the crazy part about the conquest is that a minority of three took over a continent. If you cast a bunch of white folks, put them in blonde wigs, and don’t make them wear violet contact lenses because the TV audience wouldn’t notice anyways, you lose the aspect of the Targaryens that they were immediately identifiable as alien to the Westerosi.
And to the folks who would say something like, “But how am I supposed to believe that white Daenerys had a black great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather?” I…just don’t care, and you don’t have to either.
Hmmm…Except that everyone and their mother in Westeros, including Tyrion and Jamie, knows that Tommen isn’t really a Baratheon, so the “right” to Storm’s End by the Lannisters is exactly nil. Neither the show or George is setting up the Lannisters to “win” the Game of Thrones, in fact Jaime and Cersei will probably die before the end, so I think the chances that the Lannisters will retain Storm’s End are pretty non-existent. Tyrion has a better chance of ending up Lord of Winterfell through his marriage to Sansa at the end than ending up Lord of Storm’s End.
As for Gendry, the Show already “hung” the “he’s the sole surviving son of Robert Baratheon” gun long ago…All I’ll say is Beware of Spoilers for Season Seven. And nope, the bastard argument doesn’t go anywhere…a new King or Queen could legitimize whomever they wanted to legitimize…
Kilgore Tully,
Nope,i’m glad that they did away with the stupid purple eyes because it just reminds me that of those cheesy ass fantasy shows or movies where people have green hair or whatever weird eye color just for the sake of saying yeah this is a fantasy show,like we didn’t know that from the ice zombies or the dragons and the sort,and also wearing contact lenses for extended periods of time not only hurts your eyes but it can cause problems with your eyesight in the future,that’s why Maisie only wore it for a couple of episodes and only in small scenes .
I’m not sure who is getting Storm’s End, but you know what character in the Storm Lands has been mentioned, favorably, in Seasons 2-6? Lord Selwyn Tarth, a lord of the Storm Lands. Gendry isn’t needed to be a leader there and he doesn’t have any skills to be a leader. But even the Blackfish said Lord Tarth was a good man.
And he has a marriageable heir.
Genghis Khan,
Nope to what? I don’t care that they got rid of the eyes and we’re not talking about cheesy shows that slap a weird nose on an actor to call them aliens.
But we are talking about a story where physical appearance as it relates to genealogy is a big fucking deal, so in a visual medium there is a ton of value in telegraphing physical features.
I minored in Linguistics at university and have a fairly decent understanding of how language works, thank you very much. But I also earn part of my living as an editor. I can juggle being professionally a prescriptivist and politically a descriptivist at the same time.
Just because an instance of erroneous usage is decipherable by most readers doesn’t make it not an error…that is, until the language evolves over time (as it always does) to the point where the newer usage replaces the older one. We aren’t anywhere near there yet with ‘trod’ as present tense. It’s still jarring to the average ear.
This made me smile because it was jarring to my ear.
Kilgore Tully,
It was too late to cast Asian’s as Ironborn because in the first season they already cast Theon as Alfie Allen as they were trying to stay as close to the books as possible and I honestly wouldn’t want anyone other than Alfie playing Theon as his done incredibly, definite one of the top actors on the show.
The problem with the violet contacts was with both actors they noticed it stopped them from conveying any kind of emotion which is why they decided to forgo them but that was a couple of years ago, now they could easily make their eyes violet through CGI or another process that YouTube users have shown in the last couple of years but it’s too late in the game to change it in the current GOT but they could do it in the future, also quite a few people in Essos actually have violet eyes as well as they are descendants of Old Valyria.
I wouldn’t hold out for them making Targaryen’s POC in future projects, GRRM is not gonna change their specific look now and no Showrunners are gonna go against him for it. I can’t see them changing around the houses looks at all, so we either have the people of Essos play a part or Dorne has a bigger part.
True. And it’s also made clear that bastards are not part of successions. Besides, the show really does not need to stress this: after all, in the real world, bastards were not part of lines of succession throughout most of Western Europe. In general, the audience is going to assume that the show is following systems with which they are familiar. (And, yes: this is a very erudite audience that typically knows the basics about history.)
In the books, there actually is a bastard of Roberts who could be put in the succession if he were legitimized. This character was cut from the show (and his role in the plot subsumed by Gendry). They big difference between this character (Edric Storm) and Gendry is that everybody knows that Edric is Robert’s Bastard: Robert officially acknowledged that he was the father. Of course, in this case, the mother was also from the nobility: she was a sister or cousin or something like that of Selyse’s.
One of the rules of legitimizing bastards in Westeros is that bastards must first be acknowledged by their fathers. These are the bastards with “Snow” or “Sands” or “Storm” for surnames. One-name bastards like Gendry are not considered to be anybody’s child. People like Melisandre might assert that he’s Robert’s: but Robert is the one that had to do that.
Again, the important gun that needed to be hung here is the question of who inherits Storms End now that the Baratheon line is extinct. Remember, it is officially extinct in the books, too: even if you are one of the people with fingers-in-ears-and-humming regarding Stannis, then Stannis still stands attainted, which is equivalent to Stannis and Shireen being declared dead; as Renley also is dead, and as Tommen will have no second sons, some cousin of Robert, Stannis & Renley is now the heir. Some people have worked out that this is actually Jaime Lannister, or at least that he is the closest relative with a Baratheon ancestor of the known characters. However, and this is key: after 5 books and 6 seasons, who inherits Storms End after the Baratheon brothers has never come up as an issue That’s the gun that needed to be hung.
No: I think that the show and books both have (long) passed the point of going in any direction concerning who will inherit Storm’s End. IF it was going to be an issue, then it should have come up with the Lannisters considering on whom to bestow the title after Stannis’ defeat. After all, with Stannis attainted and Renley dead, it was Joffery’s and then Tommen’s to dispense with as the crown pleased: and that, of course, meant that it was Tywin’s and then Cersei’s to dispense. In the books, there is the siege at Storm’s End is a background detail in some sections: but it’s never discussed who is going to get the place afterwards.
I suppose that this could come up in passing. For example, Daenerys might offer to bestow it on someone in exchange for alliance. However, even that would be something done in passing, and part of the wall or side-paintings in a minor gun-hanging scene.
When we worry about what is left, we need to worry about the unresolved questions that the characters themselves have been asking. The fact that fans ask the question means nothing: storytellers are obliged to answer only those questions that they explicitly raise in a tale.
(As an example, one can find long lists of “Unanswered Questions” from the Harry Potter series, all of which fall into two categories: 1) questions that were raised in the books and answered, but where some fans did not understand that the question was answered; and, 2) questions that never came up in the books, but only among fans.)
Genghis Khan,
In GRRM’s defense, I’ve always thought that when creating the Targaryens he may have thought of the violet eyes as being a very distinctive genetic trait; given that they tended to marry brother-to-sister, that trait would be quite common within the family.
Elizabeth Taylor and Alexander Hamilton famously had violet eyes, and I’ve always wondered if it was a genetic mutation particular to a specific population in England or Scotland.
<font><font>suero</font></font>,
Estas serian grandes historias para ver en la pantalla,pero yo iria incluso algo mas lejos,si es que Martin tiene algo en mente,sobre la creacion,crecimiento y destruccion de Valiria acabando con los Targarien en Roca Dragon….muy costoso,pero con magia,ejercitos,dragones,intrigas politicas y militares,…etc
For sure! Alfie does a spectacular job, and I’m just musing for the sake of conversation. But, and this is still just musing, once upon a time Theon’s story would have been a compelling case to cast the Ironborn Asian. Imagine someone encountering the story for the first time through the show. You would need zero exposition to show them that Theon is an outsider and that there’s a story there, and that hint of a broader world would only make the viewing experience richer and more engaging. Not that it suffers for those things…
And, yeah, I’m not actually holding out for future productions to change up the races. I do appreciate when franchises put a lot of detail into continuity. Just saying that they could, if they wanted, and for perfectly legit artistic reasons.
If there’s a Robert’s Rebellion series, there’s only one person I want to see playing Jon Arryn – Peter Capaldi.
I really don’t want dunk and egg. Also I as much as I’d love to see Robert’s Rebillion. I think all the important stuff will be explained in the books and show. I don’t want a series where we know the ending. Theres nothing worse than knowing you favourite character dies or that the bad guys win. I’d rather have the show to about the next generation of starks after jon, arya, bran. Then we can see there chlidren or grandchildren.
I’m going to go off the board and vote for “Cooking with Hotpie”.
Wolfish,
Is there any info on the battles between Valyria and the Rhonyar?
Posted this on Oz’s post when the in-off news broke.
Thank-you WotW!!
Iâm most excited about GRRM working with either extremely talented Jane Goldman/Carly Wray.
I love then idea of a quaint story of Hot Pieâs life at the Inn at the Crossroads after the final battle.
Ea. episode could focus on the travelers from all over Westoros, that stay there. Viewers would get to find out how life is now. Stories of new rulers & rules, changes to religions & cultures could show what & how the war impacted individuals.
Original cast members could make special appearances or even better, star in the series.
They can reminiscent about past experiences together & so on.
After reading most comments I must add to my vision:
Hot Pie has Monty Python comedy type variety shows, including music & skits at the Inn.
Itâs a great hang out for Arya, Hound, Gendry, Tyrion, Bronn, Jon, & Sam.
I think the two which have the bast chance to be adapted are Robert’s Rebellion and Blackfyre Rebellions. And are the two I wanna see.
Travelers from all over stop in to rest & eat hot pies while telling ancient stories from where they come from.
The show makes the tales come to life in little snippets as the storyteller, (GRRM, as Chaucer (as StarkRavenMad suggests)) narrates tales from all over Westeros to the Inn Keepers kids or Inn guests:
Old Valeria
Dunk & Egg
Nymeria
Dance of Dragons
The long night
It could go on & on
Ja,
yes!
Exactly everyone just make the mistake of thinking Dunk and Egg stories as just their roadshow..
But one can actually incorporate blackfyre rebellion within them since we have all three charcters such as Daemon, Maeker and Baelor( song of hammer and anvil) and bloodraven himself with his badass archery group..
If they go as far as tragedy at summer hall then we will get to see tywin ,barristan,aerys and rhaegar. .
Besides having these two on road will give you a chance to base a season focusing on only one region .,for example a season can focus on she wolves of winterfell in north and how dunk and egg help them while we get the other stories of blackfyre rebellion from KL..so they can make 7 seasons already each season for each kingdom ..
While they are at Western lands we will get to see tywin and his father ..while they are at reach we will get to see olenna and so on
Those who say Dunk and Egg doesn’t have any action must not have noticed last couple of seasons of GOT…they have specifically came up with a battle scenes or a quest which will have a fight sequence for Jon alone starting from Craster’s keep to hardhome etc
Iam sure they can manage the same way for dunk and egg too
With other commenters, I argue for the ancient days of Westeros: the Age of Heroes, the raising of The Wall, the tales of the First Men and the Children of The Forest. These stories would not suffer from prequel issues, because such a long time has passed between these events and “modern” Westeros, there is no reason to suppose any connection between what the Maesters of The Citadel “know” to be true and what actually happened. The difference between what Ned Stark believed about Bran the Builder, and how the fortress now known as Winterfell actually started, could be a whole series unto itself.
We’ve already seen the difference between the history the Stark children received concerning Ned and Ser Arthur Dayne, and what actually happened. That was barely one generation, and look at the difference between reality and official history!
At the end of A Feast for Crows,
I like this idea! And here is what I expect the show to look and sound like (with Hot Pie taking the role of the amply proportioned compere): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ig4Es436IY – less “Monty Python”, more “Wheeltappers & Shunters Social Club”.
Bufferzone,
Oh, that is spot on! Grumbleweeds must make a special guest appearance!
Nerwen Aldarion,
Sold to me!
I think a spin off would be required to tie into characters of the original show/story for it to grasp the interest of CASUAL viewers.
I think that the problem with the Blackfyre Rebellion (and by extension D&E) is that the show hasn’t really mentioned Blackfyres, and I’d assume that what ever becomes the spinoff needs to have some grounding in the main series, e.g. characters mentioning it. They still could introduce that somehow, but I doubt it. That is why it seems more likely to have Robert’s Rebellion, Dance of Dragons or Aegon’s Conquest as a prequel. And from these three Dance of Dragons is my favourite for reasons that many have said here before me, politics, betrayals, dragons etc. And I do not think that it would bee too expensive, since dragons would be the main expenditure. In GoT there is wildfire, wolves, battles, White Walkers and wights etc. in addition to dragons that take a lot of money. And dragons wouldn’t be shown all the time, so I don’t see the problem. Also they pretty much already have all the models for locations and dragons so that saves some money when they don’t have to make everything from scratch.
I’m somewhat open to a prequel/sequel/postquel/reboot/re-do/whateverthefuck, but considering that I would say at least 90% of them are nothing more than shameless cash grabs and end up being more disappointing than anything, I’m a bit hesitant to fully endorse one for GoT at this point.
I’ll have to revisit my feelings on this in a year or two once our current story has an ending, but right now I would prefer it if they finished telling their GoT story after season 8 and then move on to something different altogether.
Sorry to disagree, but GRRM does NOT use “teak” as “dark wood”. The whole point is that Alleras’s skin is not the ebony of the Summer Isles (maternal heritage) or the much lighter “olive” (or pine? spruce? if we’re comparing skin colour to wood colour) of Dorne. The point is that it’s somewhere inbetween = mixed race as it’d now be called in the UK.
“Teak” as a colour term usually means reddish mid-brown because what people usually see, garden furniture and boat decks, in their prime are treated with oil. Weathered teak turns grey but is still darker than weathered pine.
I agree about the block-buster movie industry. Bleeuuurgh.
You have to remember that European actors (such as Maisie) often prioritise craft and serious acting above Hollywood stardom and celebrity. GoT stars are now financially secure enough to do more art-house projects that they really want to do. Oh, do some megabucks American stuff by all means… so that you can afford to do smaller, more interesting European projects.
I suppose the stupid block-buster industry is necessary to allow the smaller things to flourish.
Oh, but he does. Here’s a quote from the chapter Cat of the Canals:
“Her [Arya’s] favorites were the Summer Islanders, with their skin as smooth and dark as teak.” We have indications elsewhere in several places that the Summer Islanders are the darkest-complected people in known Planetos. He says “teak” when he’s thinking “ebony.”
And if you look up dictionary definitions of “teak” as a color, most of them specify “yellowish-brown.” I had a teak desk once, and it was just a teensy bit more orange than golden oak. Definitely not what I’d call a “reddish mid-brown.” In any case, GRRM definitely has a misconception of the term.
You lost me there. Are you not aware that Beric gave up his life (because he wanted to finally die for good) to revive the literal and literary horror that is LSH. Beric can’t do anything to her because he’s dead. Dead dead.
Anyway, the exploits of a vengeanceful fire zombie and her followers as they kill Freys, associates, and innocents in the back-timeline does not interest me one whit. I would not pay HBO for such a rehash, ridiculous show. But what do I know, you and presumably some other people would watch it, and whatever floats your boat..
Oh, and the Freys are cursed after Lord Walder broke guest right. In my fantasies he sees all his sons, grandsons and even great grandsons die, and dies a very old, bitter man.
Firannion,
Ah, so maybe GRRM has a misconception re: teak/ebony and I am right, haha! Sarella Sand definitely is “mixed race”, mum Summer Islander and dad Dornish (Oberyn). We haven’t met Sarella, but Alleras’s skin is “teak”, not “ebony” like Jalabar Xho, Chataya, Alayaya or the crew of Cinnamon Wind (Kojja Mo etc.) who take Sam and Gilly from Braavos to Oldtown.
Sorry to be so pig-headed about this. Maybe it’s just a language thing. In my language “tiikki” (teak) is definitely a reddish mid-brown and I’m confusing things, albeit differently than GRRM. đ
Wait, what?!
That’s not how inheritance works in Westeros. Tommen’s maternal uncle (mum’s brother) cannot inherit Tommen’s paternal (Robert’s, Baratheon) line. Tommen dead, it works through his paternal line: from Robert to his father Steffon B., Steffon’s father, Steffon’s father’s younger siblings, their descedants = distant Baratheon cousins. The Lannisters don’t come into it.
Unless you mean Jaime can inherit his son (which might be legit) – but if Tommen was publicly recognised as Jaime’s son, Tommen would not have had any claim whatsoever to Storm’s End (or the Iron Throne) because he never was a Baratheon in the first place.
And you lost me, alas. Dead or not, Beric could still end a Thoros-rezzed LSH when he realises she’s gone rogue so continuity would exist with the main show.
The Freys being cursed by violating guest rite thing you mention always gave credence to the idea of the unnatural, almost supernatual haunting of Stoneheart for me too, but hey … horses for courses and vive la difference. :o)
I personally think the scope for what they could achieve and flesh out via the untapped conflict in The Riverlands could bring in a great many stories to the fold, not just that of the BWB.
Despite occasional hints at pockets of resistance, houses not paying taxes, or a bit of CGI smoke raging in the distance over roadtrip Hound/Arya’s shoulder, the show too often gives the impression that the Frey/Bolton alliance basically steamrolled the reaminder of The Riverlands & The North and that The Red Wedding = fait accompli.
So Manderly has to be shamed into supporting Jon by a girl at Winterfell rather than realising off his own back that his dead son needs to be avenged and actively plotting a fightback, and so on…
On the Frey and Bolton front, a Stoneheart show could essentially show us for the first time these two big vassal houses sublimating some Lords while unleashing all hell upon others, with the BWB fighting behind the scenes to undermine this â not just hanging any minor Frey they can get their hands, and making the show a one note kill list.
As a miniseries, Itâs win-win. Known characters: check. Horror factor: check. Epic battle scenes: check. Wolfpack: check. David Bradley: check. Michelle Fairley: check. Kaye and Dormer (two of the most underrated actors on the main show) getting another chance to shine? Check, check.
Maybe call it âRiverlandsâ or âThe Green Forkâ and factor in the life and times of a few choice peasants living along the river into the mix. Chuck in some great new character actors for Merrett and Raymund Frey (I stand by my earlier David Thewlis comment.)
Cold open: Nymeria dragging a pale, sallow body from it, naturally. Aaaaaaand cue the sound of approaching horses âŚ.
Subtitle in red script: TWO DAYS AFTER THE WEDDING ….
You wouldn’t wanna watch that? Dipping right back into the creepy, unseen aftermath of the main show’s most iconic happening?
Fine. I bloody would. :^)
Oops. Double post. Resolved.
Are you trying to keep a certain secret?
I vote for a Dunk and Egg. A lot of series have separate stories each episode. they could do a lot of traveling and see a lot of westeros. I don’t see a problem with limited source material, you can get other writers to make up stories for them, heck that’s what they are doing now for game of thrones.
OT: Anyone seen American Gods yet?? Opinions?
I haven’t seen it yet… waiting for a few episodes to come out.
Aldebaran,
Agreed!
Dee Stark,
I’ve seen it and I love it! It stays very close to the novel and it still manages to enrich it visually. When some scenes are changed, it’s for the better (the slave ship). The actors are splendidly chosen, the atmosphere keeps you interested even when there is no “action” and every minute is a treat.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Woooo!!!
I’m with those who think Dunk and Egg is one of the ideas being developed! Pretty happy about it. Bobby’s Rebellion would be easier simply because half of the main characters we’ve already made. Will they go for that? Who knows. Didn’t think about Blackfyres but I can see that happening. And while I don’t think they’ll really do a sequel considering most of the GoT characters will probably be dead or dying at the end of the story, who knows?
talvikorppi,
Off topic: You’re not wrong. And neither is Finnarion. Except in the fact she thinks she is the only one who’s right.
Teak color is not uniform and in fact if you’ve ever looked at a tree cut you’d see for yourself. Heartwood is mostly brown red. The outer layers are mostly yellowish brown. Depends which part was used for Finnarion’s furniture. But I have seen solid furniture, worked old style from teak wood that has the end result a color of dark red-brown. Because the heartwood red-brown darkens in time considerably, never mind if you treat it to give it an antique look.
I seem to have problems to post comments.
Shy Lady Dragon,
I have been too since last Friday. It will work normally and then out of nowhere my comments will never appear after I hit post. On Sunday I copy/pasted a comment in this thread several times and it never did show up. Once it said duplicate submitted but it still never showed.
Dee Stark,
I made a comment about American Gods last Friday, but it too was one that I couldn’t get to post. I have watched the two episodes so far. I have to say that I’m more interested in continuing to watch this than I ever was Westworld. I admit that Gaiman is one of “my authors” so there may be some bias, but besides that the story is just more intriguing to me. WW became a ‘chore’ for me to watch, which is not a good sign, so hopefully AG doesn’t get there.
Well, great – with a new contest the sidebar recent comments list will all be for that so I’ll have to keep checking for “real posts.” đ
Clob,
Interesting comment regarding AG… and glad to hear that you are liking it. Starz has a special way of producing some of their shows so I was a bit nervous. Though I loved some of their shows that I have seen.
I have read the book, so I might be more interested in it… and like you, may be slight bias there.. but I will be curious to see if my sister enjoys it. She is going to watch it with me and she hasn’t read the book…. and she loved Westworld. I read some viewer reviews on IMDB and a lot of people compare it to Westworld
Dee Stark,
Honestly, I can see no immediate resemblance! Of course, it’s a mind-blowing show, with talented actors, great visuals, deep questions about human condition… but this seems too little for me to be the starting point of a resemblance. I am a Westworld fan as well, but I love each show in a different way.
Shy Lady Dragon,
I think its compared in a sense that most people were confused when they first started watching WW and the same is happening with AG…
Clob,
Well, I must admit that my first vanished comment contained a word which might be considered obscene, although it’s a medical term and we are adults here. It also displayed an ironic opinion about a great actor. So, I concluded that my comment was deleted and began another one, excluding both the term and the irony. When my second, self-censored comment disappeared I started to think it was a technical problem.
Dee Stark,
Well, they should be! Think of poor Shadow… which, btw, is played by an insanely handsome man, Ricky Whittle. If I had been a teenager, I would have been in love now đ
I vote first for the early years of the dynasty: Aegon’s Conquest, through the succession of Maegor the Cruel, ending with the crowning of Viserys I. I think that there is quite enough internal intrigue if you’re creative about it and it would give context to the next spinoff for the Dance of the Dragons.
Shy Lady Dragon,
hahahaha he is hot!
Dee Stark,
Did you know him when he was a sportsman?
First time I’D ever seen him was on The 100 as Lincoln.
Clob,
Did he play well? What is the show about? Is it good?
Clob,
I googles The 100. Is is worth watching?
Shy Lady Dragon,
I liked his character. He’s only on the first three seasons. I’ve only actually watched through most of season 3, but not all (season 4 currently airing). I really liked it while I was watching. Basic plot at the beginning: there are thousands of people living on space stations orbiting Earth and then there was a nuclear apocalypse on the planet. After many years their orbiting station(s) is failing so they send 100 teens to the surface to see if it’s habitable. Stuff happens, they find out humanity wasn’t wiped out by the apocalypse, etc. etc. Parts of it sort of has a LOST feel to it, early on anyway.
Hey, now. I never claimed to be the only one who is right – only that GRRM is being muddleheaded when he uses ‘teak’ to describe the skin color of the blackest ethnic group in Planetos. (And I usually stand accused here of being too staunch a GRRM defender.)
Talvikorppi is certainly correct in pointing out that Alleras/Sarella’s shade would likely be a hybrid of the genes of an olive-skinned father and a black mother. And I’m sure you’re right with regard to teakwood coming in somewhat different shades depending on how it’s treated, exposure to the elements etc.
Being ‘right’ isn’t a zero-sum game! We are all the blind sages in the poem, each holding a different part of the elephant.
Clob,
Thank you! I really like Ricky, but this is not enough to watch a show đ I’ll give it a try.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Noooo – first time I see him is for AG
what kind?
OT – Any NY rangers fans in here?
Dee Stark,
This is what I have found out from Wikipedia:
A keen sportsman, Whittle represented England and the United Kingdom at youth level in football, American football, and athletics. After having been watched by Arsenal F.C. and Celtic F.C., Whittle was injured, pursued a degree in Criminology at Southampton Institute of Higher Education (now Southampton Solent University). He ultimately left university, before graduating, to pursue a career in acting, but enjoyed playing football and rugby for the University sides whilst he was studying. Having recovered from a broken leg, Whittle now spends his spare time playing running back for the Manchester Titans American Football team.
Off topic, but has anyone else noticed that the countdown seems to be stuck on 72 days?!
Dolorous Jaemi,
It’s your browser’s cache that’s gotten stuck. It happens especially with people who have Chrome. Clear your cache, the browsing history and cookies.
Ah right ok, thanks. That’s weird; cos it’s not frozen, it is counting down; maybe it’s only counting when I come to your page. How many days is it actually then? I’m reticent to clear my cache cos I don’t fancy trying to remember all my passwords haha…
Firannion,
Lol sorry. That probably sounded terrible to you, but it looked like you’re pretty sure teak is golden brown and that’s the end of it. And you’ve almost confused Talvikorppi!
I read your comments twice before deciding to post. If it wasn’t for “anyone who has ever lived through a period when âDanish modernâ furniture was trendy should know that teakwood is a blonde/golden brown color! ” doubled up by the dictionary definition, I would not have commented on this. Because I did live through one of those Danish modern furniture trend! âşď¸ Ok maybe it was Swedish since I’m really talking IKEA .
Got no problem with Martin’s description. Which is why I didn’t comment on that. I actually imagined a very dark brown color.
This discussion is a lot like the olive skinned ridiculous topic I was involved in once. Because olives come in many shades! And no one has green skin or purple ? Olive even defined as a color is supposed to have mainly greenish tone. Anyone seen green tone sink people?!?!
“different depending on the perspective of the person who is viewing it”
I think that could be what makes the show great. If you make Rhegar and his cause sympathetic in spite of his Father; make Neds cause sympathetic for his family and honor; and almost have Robert as the bad guy it would set up some tragic moments that we know exist.
I think two seasons could be doable. Season one with some backstory and build up to war; Season 2 with the war and strategy taking place.
The thing about Rhaegar is that we’re suppose to see that already. Well, at least be getting to that point if we pay attention to the things written about him and even things said on the show by people NOT named Baratheon, his staunch supporters or hearsay.
Rhaegar was not a prick like his little brother Viserys, and most likely would have been a wonderful king. He was loved by the people and enjoyed books and music. Daenerys is compared to him due to the good things about her. Barristan and Jorah spoke highly of him and we know that those two wouldn’t speak in such a way if he wasn’t a good man. Even some not on the Targaryen side such as Jaime, Baelish and Ned questioned or commented on things said about him as they were out of line with his normal character.
The story of Rhaegar kidnapping and doing elicit things to Lyanna has been jammed in our face repeatedly, but in a more subdued, hinting manner we should have figured out that he wasn’t that sort of person in the least.
Shy Lady Dragon,
I had no idea!!!
Walt is only “mad” because he takes copious amounts of drugs. Reuniting with Peter and Olivia seemed to help. Fringe.
I’ve been meaning to dig into all of the ideas a little more for a specific thing but I haven’t had the time to do it well. With Game of Thrones they had all of the published ASoIaF to get the ball rolling. That is to say that beyond the events that happen in the story they also had fleshed out characters. D&D and readers knew the protagonists, antagonists, and/or those that are in the middle. We also knew a lot about what our main (pov) characters are truly like; what they’re thinking, how they respond to situations, etc. Even for non-readers it probably didn’t take long to figure out which characters were the “good” and “bad” guys in the story, granted some flip-flop a bit.
What I wanted to do was try to point out which characters would be what in each of our spinoff options. Personally I think there has to be a clear protagonist or two for the viewers to care about.
Dunk & Egg may be fairly clear. Robert’s Rebellion on the other hand seems like it could get confusing even though we know several of the characters. The events presented have been rather heavily one-sided so far from the Baratheon viewpoint. Certainly the Mad King was an antagonist, but what about the rest of the Targaryens? Rhaegar seems like a guy that could be rooted for while viewing Robert as the bad guy at times with Ned in the middle somewhere. Would we see the events at the Tower of Joy completely different with a viewpoint from the other side? Who would be our protagonist in Dance of the Dragons? Rhaenyra? The other ideas?
Like I mentioned, I haven’t had time to look into it much. Maybe some can fire off an idea for the options…
Fire & Blood: A Game of Thrones Anthology
Season 1: the Doom of Valaryia and the exodus of House Targaryan
Season 2: Aegon’s conquest
Season 3: Maegar the Cruel, the resistance of the Stars & Swords
Season 4: The Dance of the Dragons
Season 5: Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and the Dornish resistance
Season 6: The Blackfyre Rebellion
Season 7: Dunk & Egg and the Tragedy at Summerhall
Ugh,not going to lie,this info drought is really killing me,i knew the delay was going to affect me but i didn’t think it would be this bad,if we don’t get a trailer in the next two weeks i don’t know what i’m going to do . At least last year we had the filming photos but this year we had nothing except for those two teasers which really did nothing for me and the photo stills which were cool for a few days but then my GOT withdrawal started to kick back again
I think the new GOT story should start before Robert’s Rebellion with Tywin Lannister in Casterly Rock. It could show the King who ruled before the Mad King… see how the Mad King came into power and what the mad king was like in the beginning of his Reign and how the Mad King changed and all the events before Robert’s Rebellion. Also the new show could show Tywin Lannister’s father and what Tywin’s father was like. Showing Tywin in Casterly Rock before he marries his wife and then he marries her and has the children and have the new GOT show who Tyrion Jamie and Cerei’s parents really are.
K26dp,
I love it!
firstone,
I like this idea – not going back centuries, but just a few generations. The viewers are familiar with the houses, going backwards might lend an opportunity as to what drove the characters that we now know. I’d also add Neds family – we see a little of that last season with Bran’s flashbacks; I’d like to see more of the young Lyanna, Benjen, the early relationship between Ned and Catelyn, Lyssa, Little Finger. Would need some more talented child actors – keep Nina Gold as Casting director…
ash,
To me it just screams of pandering and lack of imagination if they just use the same characters for a spin off,that’s why i’m not a big fan of a RR prequel or god forbid a sequel,like give your audience a bit of credit and trust them to get attached to new characters,new places and storylines,if you just recycle the same shit,what’s the point in a spin off ? I for one i know i wouldn’t watch it,the story with these characters should end with the last season of GOT and the last book of ASOIAF if it ever comes out,i know it’s hard to seperate from these characters that we all know and love but just how one moves from his family to start a new one so should we from these characters .
Forgot… I was going to say “absolutely no” to the idea of a new series based on the BwoB. GoT has already just about hit the limit of scenes I care to see with them already. Remember also that that the ‘shelf life’ of the Brotherhood is probably only going to run for a period of time within the chronology of ASoIaF which is already covered with GoT. Also, beyond the fact that they’re just Robin-Hooding it so not all that intriguing, their actions are also interwoven with events and characters in GoT, not to mention the already eliminated LSH. It would be more of a mess than trying to tie Robert’s Rebellion into GoT. I’m not knocking those that really like the BwoB for some reason, but I just don’t see that as a series that would be very successful.
My vote is for a Vikings style Dunk and Egg story. What I mean by Vikings style is that it will progress from their early years to their deaths. It would be great to have a story that follows only two characters instead of jumping around all over. It would be easier on the budget too because there wouldn’t be as many locations.
Season 1 Could be the Hedge Knight with flashbacks to the start of the blackfyre rebellion as in the death of Aegon the Unworthy and him giving the sword to Daemon. Maybe have some other added scenes as well.
Season 2 The Sworn Sword and flashbacks to the first rebellion and battle of redgrass field which would be a huge battle of the bastards style episode.
Season 3 The Mystery Knight
Season 4 some other concepts and so on until the Summerhall tragedy
This would be great because we get to see every part of westeros and maybe even parts of Essos and we get to have an examination of the lower classes which are kind of passed over in Game of Thrones. I want a series that just kind of takes its time in the Game of Thrones world.
The better call Saul of Westeros lol.
Genghis Khan,
Agreed. This is why I really liked K26dp’s anthology idea that would end with Dunk & Egg and Summerhall in S7. Heaven knows there are plenty of really compelling characters in the Martinverse that we either haven’t seen, or have seen only as really old men (like Bloodraven? Hellooo!!!).
I would also be more in favor of something that has a new set of characters who we have not yet seen. I would be disappointed to see something like Robert’s Rebellion, which would require almost every known character to be recast. No thanks. For me, it has to be a story in the ASOIAF universe that has not already been covered or even partially covered yet.
I’d love to see all of the possibilities mentioned here, but I’d primarily love to see something about the Long Night. Because then, we might be able to hear the Old Tongue at last, which is something I’ve been wanting to hear for about 4 years now.
Welp, its not Dunk and Egg or Roberts Rebellion.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/
Jebus take the wheel. At least you should take the opportunity to rub the fannies noses in it. A little sass, a little “Suck it, losers”. Twist the knife a little bit, ya know? But you forgot to add: at least one of these spinoffs has nothing to do with Westeros at all. Chew on THAT for a little bit. I see some multiverse “Dark Tower” fuckery in store for ASOIAF readers.
Oh, don’t be such a sourpuss. Where you deduce a ‘Suck it, losers’ attitude on the author’s part is beyond me.
A series set outside Westeros could be an account of the Doom of Valyria: one of the more popular suggestions to be floated amongst the fandom. Or we might get to visit Asshai or Yi Ti or the Summer Isles and encounter a whole new culture.
I for one am thankful to have a little bit more information. I’m not going to throw a hissy fit just because I’m not getting my ‘On the Road with Dunk & Egg’ show anytime soon. Whichever proposal ends up getting developed is likely to be more intriguing than most of what’s on TV in any case.
Ryan,
Yeah I read that too, his reasoning makes 100% sense to me. No Robert’s Rebellion as we are already gonna find out all the important things once he one day finishes the story so it’s a little pointless. Dunk and Egg he seems to think would be a good project but too difficult for him to commit to considering it’s no way near finished and he doesn’t want that pressure to have a timeline to finish. He also mentioned no sequels either, he doesn’t want it to feel like a spinoff at all instead a successor show. I personally think that’s a good thing, The theory of a sequel didn’t really excite me to be honest.
But now there are 5 different ideas not just four and his met with all the writers not just two like HBO said.
Your lips move when you read, don’t they? I deduced nothing on the author’s part.
Then why the sarcasm?
Too many posts to read, so I’ll just put forth my own ideas on stuff I’d love to see:
– Citadel machinations, history, more insight into black candles and such.
– Story of the CotF and their disappearance by the hands of the First Men.
– The beginnings of dragons on Valyria and the Doom, two separate tales.
– History of the White Walkers and their relations with humans.
– The Targaryans arrival on Dragonstone as a sequel to the Doom history.
TL;DR
Anything but more Bobby Baratheon!
No sarcasm, just giving my buddy Ryan some notes on what kind of posts I like. You inferred something that wasn’t there.
for a woman to get involved in the franchise. Wray can nudge the franchise in a new direction, since Game of Thrones has been a boys club for most of its journey thus far. Bringing in a female perspective is a great idea, especially with so many female characters to explore in a spin-off and especially with a candidate like Wray readying a script.