After the colossal Game of Thrones Season 6 finale, fans have been more than eager for the next chapter of David Benioff and D.B. Weiss‘ television epic. Lucky for us, they’ve given a bit of a tease with Deadline.
Originally described as a cross between The Sopranos and Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones continues to be the most ambitious show to air. In Deadline, the creators relish what they enjoy as “great TV” including dramas like The Wire and Deadwood, and animated hits like Rick & Morty and Adventure Time.
A show of such enormity requires tremendous personal sacrifice. Benioff and Weiss delve into their experience with Game of Thrones so far:
As much as we miss our families, which is a lot for those months, production can be the most enjoyable part of the year. The Irish countryside—hills, forests, coasts—is beautiful. Spain’s castles totally make you understand why people were so hellbent on sacking each other’s castles. Turns out castles are really enjoyable places to work. And the glaciers in Iceland are awesome in the serious old-timey sense. There are challenges everywhere… but these are glorious places. People seek these places out just for the privilege of seeing them. Having your job take you to these places… next year we may actually take the kids out of school for a semester and have the families travel with us, so they can all experience it too. Teach them to wield swords. It’s time.
Better keep an eye out for some cameos next season!
The penultimate episode of Season 6 may be the show’s most ambitious and spectacular yet. The two reminisce what it was like behind the scenes of “The Battle of the Bastards.”
When we scheduled that original version, it ended up being 50% more expensive and time-consuming than what we ended up shooting. Which was itself 50% more expensive and time-consuming than what we initially thought we could afford, and we were being generous. So we reconfigured it, with lots of directorial input from Miguel Sapochnik, and chose the battle of Cannae, in which the Carthaginians lured the Romans into an encirclement and massacred an almost unimaginable number of them. We made the body pile the fourth wall of this encirclement.
![20160602_ep609_Publicity_still_047.00147762[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/20160602_ep609_Publicity_still_047.001477621-1024x576.jpg)
Being the showrunners of such a mega-hit series would be any A Song of Ice and Fire fan’s dream. The two reflect on the best perks of the job:
The source of the joy and the challenge are the same: the opportunity to tell a story encompassing so many characters and so many places, over such a long stretch of time. To be able to bring a world to life, and actually have it be a world, as in, one with different continents, the one that George bequeathed to us. We try to maintain a strong sense of forward momentum, especially at this late stage in the story.
But even with all that, the scope of the thing gives us time to let characters spend a few minutes with each other here and there without propelling the plot forward.
Now that the show is thinning the herd of main characters left, Benioff and Weiss share their favorite characters to write for.
In the past season or two, things have finally started to contract in a very positive way. It was such an expansive world for such a long time, but things have really started coming together. Obviously, we had to say goodbye to a lot of characters and storylines we loved a lot. The ones that are left are ones we’ve been engaged in so long. Writing for Maisie [Williams] is always great, writing for Peter [Dinklage] and Emilia [Clarke] is great, especially now that they’ve come together in the same storyline. Writing all the stuff for Kit [Harington] and all of the epic stuff he gets to go through now. There isn’t anyone left we don’t love writing for, because we’ve been writing for them for so long. We know them so well at this point.
They also set the board for Season 7 and analyze the stats of our remaining characters.
The Dragon Queen:
Dany has a boundless confidence in herself and her mission in this world. Her sense of destiny makes her a compelling, charismatic leader, a messianic figure for multitudes. She has arguably the cleverest advisor on the planet in Tyrion Lannister. She has three dragons, an army of Unsullied, and a great Dothraki horde.
What could possibly go wrong?
The Lone Lioness:
Cersei will do anything to win. In the past, the only factor limiting her ruthlessness was her love for her children. Now that her children are gone, nothing restrains her. As she herself said, “love is weakness.” A loveless Cersei is a fearsome thing.
Damn straight!
Up in the North, they break down The White Wolf and Night King.
Jon’s honorable nature has proven a disadvantage in some regards: a man who plays by the rules will have a harder time defeating men and women who don’t. But Jon’s nature also provides one of his great strengths: his ability to win others to his cause. The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies
Strength: He can raise the dead and have them do his bidding. Weakness: He’ll never be as funny as The Ice King.
The two go further behind the scenes of Season 6 with the return of The Hound, villains Ramsay Bolton and Walder Frey, and Jaime Lannister’s glaring gaze at Cersei with Deadline!
Who will you be rooting for in the endgame of Game of Thrones?
Arianne!
I love them!
As I have from the very beginning, Jon Snow!!! He is the Song of Ice and Fire!! We need him to lead everyone against the Wight Walkers and to their defeat! Will he die for that cause? George promised a bittersweet end! I would love to see him until the very end and then live happily ever after with someone to love by his side!
Up in the North, they break down The White Wolf and Night King.
Jon’s honorable nature has proven a disadvantage in some regards: a man who plays by the rules will have a harder time defeating men and women who don’t. But Jon’s nature also provides one of his great strengths: his ability to win others to his cause. The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies
God I love these two, looking forward to this season so much!!!!
Jon snow, tyrion lannister, Dany, Arya stark,cersei….
Really looking forward to the end of their epic tails 🙂
Good luck at the emmys Thrones!!!!!! <3
Great interview.
Can’t wait to see Cersei completely unrestrained!!
Really, what could possibly go wrong for Daenerys? Well, if they put it that way, I suspect something WILL go wrong.
And I still haven’t decided if I should call our beloved queen Mad Queen Cersei or Cersei the Cruel. Mad Cersei the Cruel? The most dangerous person is the one, who has nothing to lose
I actually hope so, her character seems to be unbeatable all the time, which makes her kind of boring to me… she kind of has it to easy recently.
They’ve already embarked down that road. Show Jon is already a dumbed down version of book Jon. That’s what they get for cutting out just about all of his book 5 subplots and support characters.
“Benioff & Weiss: One practical thing we’ve learned as writers is how to work almost anywhere. We had specific, persnickety routines, before. This chair, this coffee mug, this time of day. When we started Thrones, it quickly became apparent that our old ways of working would prevent us from getting the scripts done on time, and that this in itself could destroy the show. So we got better at working wherever we were, whenever we could. And that’s been really helpful, realizing that what we thought we “needed” to work effectively was really just a kind of magical thinking, and that we could get words down anywhere. ”
This is the best (unintentional?) dig at Martin I’ve EVER seen
“Benioff & Weiss: One practical thing we’ve learned as writers is how to work almost anywhere. We had specific, persnickety routines, before. This chair, this coffee mug, this time of day. When we started Thrones, it quickly became apparent that our old ways of working would prevent us from getting the scripts done on time, and that this in itself could destroy the show. So we got better at working wherever we were, whenever we could. And that’s been really helpful, realizing that what we thought we “needed” to work effectively was really just a kind of magical thinking, and that we could get words down anywhere”
A lesson that Martin has sadly not learnt.
I already suspected Dany’s invasion of Westeros won’t go as smoothly as it’s been set up to be. D&D’s quote leads me to believe that she will encounter some resistance in the form of Cersei, Euron, and maybe even some of the lords in the Reach (Tarly?) who don’t appreciate the thousands of Dothraki invaders riding through their lands.
Regarding Jon: “The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies.” Hmm, that pretty much confirms Jon’s antagonist will be Littlefinger since there aren’t any other dishonorable men or women of importance left in the North. I’m sure Jon will be the victor in this but I wonder if LF will finally end up dead or whether he’ll slink off to the Vale. And what will be the collateral damage?
Ice King?
Next season seems to resolve around Jon vs Sansa/Littlefinger and Dany vs Cersei/Euron, with a few other characters floating around. Dany simply has to lose some of her forces and I guess Kings Landing is ruined at the end of the season. Meanwhile I would guess the death of Sansa will be the tragedy in the Northern storyline, as well as the wall falling.
BunBunStark,
LF will die in S7. I don’t see his place in S8.
Lord Parramandas,
Well, Euron’s 1000 ship isn’t build for nothing.
I feel like at least one if not two of Dany’s dragons have to die before the battle with the White Walkers. Either that or there is an ice dragon somewhere for the White Walkers to balance out. I say that because if they control the sky they’ll just mow down the Wights with fire from the sky. I don’t know what, but something is going to happen to cause conflict and problems. It is not going to be as easy as Jon and Dany riding dragons and mowing Wights down.
Get back to your roots D & D. Put the focus on the story and the characters, not just biding time until the major battle happens. Keep us off balance and give the characters we love actual arcs that mean something. Think outside the box and stay away from common TV tropes. Don’t be in such a rush to consolidate the story and making stuff happen or killing off minor characters just cause. Get back to your roots!
“She has three dragons, an army of Unsullied, and a great Dothraki horde.
What could possibly go wrong?”
Now i feel worried for Dany.
Season 6 was pretty much all about revenge for the good guys but Season 7 might be one of those Ned losing his head and Red Wedding type seasons which will make us cry again.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Going back to their roots means going back to GRRM’s source material. Not possible now.
I don’t think any dragons have to die before the war against the White Walkers. I think winter will be in full swing by the time Dany and her dragons make it North and that will prove to be the neutralizing factor. I imagine the dragons are like airplanes: they can’t get airborne nor can they stay airborne in severe wintry conditions. And we know the Night King “brings the storm”. I think all 3 dragons will do their job in helping Dany conquer southern Westeros, but, once they go North, that’s where they’ll encounter problems and 1 or 2 will die.
Sansa and Jon need to find dynastic marriage partners. Sansa is still in fact married to Tyrion, so there is the Stark/Lannister connection. Jon and Dany are too close by blood but not necessarily that different in terms of temperment. But (and there’s more): the young Lady Mormont is kin to Dany’s Ser Jorah; there’s creepy weird cousin that needs to be dealt with; and the dames from Dorne. There’s a lot that needs to be worked through. I think it will take more than 12 episodes spread out over two years.
I expect the Lannister plot to wind up next season – with maybe Cersei’s death at the hands of her brother-lover the highlight of the finale. In the last season I expect to see Dani and Jon take on the white walkers together. Maybe Dani will die, as she can’t have children, and Jon will ascend the throne reluctantly (as always) in her place?
Cersei’s Brain,
I think they’re capable enough and creative enough to continue the same vein of story telling that happened in seasons 1-5 without having any book material as a template. Judging by their performance as writers in season 6, you wouldn’t think so, but I still think they’re much better than that.
I will root for Jorah Mormont until the end…of season 8????
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I’ve waited 10 years for Martin to return to his ”roots” and write the way he did the first 3 books, and the characters/arcs I love the way he used to do in the first 3 books.
So I wouldn’t hold my breath, they, just like Martin, have made their choice.
Cersei’s Brain,
You think having Sansa do nothing for 2-3 seasons, Jon doing nothing, Tyrion still wandering and being depressed, never reaching Dany, dozens on Zo bla bla in Meereen, Quentyn, would have been better received? Because if they would have followed the books, I doubt we would have even got to Jon’s assassination………..
I don’t, I think they made a conscious decision, that they will gain and keep more viewers if they write this way compared to how many viewers they would have lost if they followed AFFC/ADWD and ”Georges material”.
BunBunStark,
and 1 or 2 will die...
OR one of them will magically thrive and thus be turned into an “ice dragon.” This will be Jon’s, if he does end up getting one. If so, for some reason I think it will be Viserion, even though some assume the one named closest to his real father would have to be the one. (there doesn’t seem to be enough time to do this in the show without it feeling tagged on unceremoniously and they having left out some of the more fantasy aspects of the book probably would this as well thinking it might be too cheesy.)
Mihnea,
It doesn’t have anything to do with the books at this point. They’re free to go off and do what they want, and what they did was very by the numbers and simple. The show was more like typical Hollywood fare and lost the luster of what made it so great previously. It was on D & D to continue the tradition, and they failed.
DanTheMan,
Frankly, if it isn’t, it wouldn’t be true to the GOT spirit. Season 6 was way too positive, the only really tragic Thronesy moment being the cave massacare. The rest was win, win, win for the good guys.
Dany needs to lose next season. A lot of main characters need to die, to make way for the more conscise endgame. Sansa, Littlefinger, Cersei and Jaime, Theon… they’re in real danger this season. I could see a decent amount of major deaths.
Nothing to stop them simply consulting George on the scrips for Season 7 we know they are following his outline still.
They are following the outline set by George, so how can you draw the conclusion it has nothing to do with the books?!!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
The rant of LatrineDiggerBrian continues…
Jon Snowed,
Right, there is an outline, but it’s a much much more vague outline. They have a lot more freedom to fill in the blanks. What they’ve done hasn’t been horrible, but it’s been much more standard type of story telling as opposed to the type of story telling that once made the show special.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
In your opinion, for many, many others this was the best season.
As I have said, they made a conscious decision, I have little doubt of this. Sadly, it looks like you were in the group that they decide was ”worth” loosing. Hardcore book readers who liked AFFC/ADWD and people who may have not read the books but like the kind of storytelling they offer, they decided it’s ”acceptable” to lose them, as not to lose a much larger group.
They aren’t going to go ”back to their roots” because they don’t want to, everything points at this, so I wouldn’t hold my breath in your place.
Here’s the rest of what D &D said about the future for Jon:
As E.O. Wilson wrote, “Within a group, selfish individuals always win. But in contests between groups, groups of altruists always beat groups of selfish individuals.” So Jon Snow better hope this is a contest between groups.”
I can’t seem to wrap my mind around exactly what they’re implying could happen here. Who would be the “groups?” Does anyone have any ideas?
Great interview!
ygritte,
I am thinking Jon, Davos and Lyanna vs Littlefinger, Sansa and Royce.
Jons group would never betray each other unlike Littlefingers group.
Lord Parramandas,
I just ignore him at this point.
Sorry for off topic..
Emilia Clarke father’s passed away last month
http://www.associationofsounddesigners.com/rick-clarke
jentario,
Well, the protagonists has to start winning at some point or else it would be a bleak and dreary series without any emotional payoff.
What we learned from GRRM and the world he created is not that heroes always lose, because that’s not entirely true at all, but that there’s always a huge price to pay! I mean, look at Jon and Sansa. They won the BofB but they lost Rickon, lost thousands of men, probably indebted to LF. Yes they won but they lost a lot, too.
Cersei is the same. She “won” over the Sparrow and the Tyrells but she lost everyone else including her kids and she may lose Jaime as well. I’m trying to find Dany’s loses but I found no compelling losses on her part so far. But that could change.
I disagree with anyone who says Season 6 sucks because the good guys are winning and that’s not GoT. Anyone who says that missed the point of the series entirely. To say that these characters , who have been through so much already, have to lose in order to make this series interesting is bull.
Shadow Shifter,
Very well said
As far as groups within groups, this is definitely a contest within groups. I think that possibly Jon and most of the northern lords versus Sansa, LF, and possibly Royce (Vale army). Maybe a few within the Northern lords might have concerns. But if I look back on the history of Jon’s experiences at Castle Black, what stands out right away is that we have groups within groups. We have the altruistic group and we have Janos Slint, and company. If we look at how that turned out I would say Jon will win over the selfish individuals. He also is able to persuade people to his cause, which I can see him doing once again. Will he be able to sway Sansa, I’m not sure. I think it’s a possibility, but I guess it depends on the power LF still has over her. In my opinion, if Sansa gives in to her quest for power and her own individual desires, then she learned nothing from season one/book one. That would be a complete waste of her entire story arc. It would have all been for nothing.
Mihnea,
No I’m not wanting them to revert to the story telling of the early books. I want them to revert to the story telling of the first 5 seasons of the show to which they deserve a ton of credit for picking and choosing what to include, what to subtract, what to embellish on, and what to add. And it’s a lot more than just shocks or surprises, it’s about great characterization, being more deft about tying things together, and taking the story in directions we couldn’t have imagined but that still make sense. It has nothing to do with the book. What it boils down to is great writing vs run of the mill writing.
ygritte,
The groups may imply Team Daeny and Team Cersey (and WW) vs Team Jon. Cersey is obviously the most selfish, Jon is the most altruistic, while Daeny stands somewhere in-between but closer to Jon IMO. Therefore, Team Jon should be the ultimate winner but Jon may not survive.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
You clearly didn’t understood my point.
I wish the Show would show that Jon is more than just an honorable guy. He is honorable, but he not so rigid about it that it’s the only way he’ll go no matter what the circumstances. He is actually capable of reading the situation and also bending the rules if he feels it necessary. The writers’ words don’t give me much hope though.
It will be a fight between group “honorable Jon” and group “dishonorable LF” with Sansa’s loyalties being more fluid till she outwits LF in the end.
Regarding Dany, I feel the only way anybody would be able to pose a serious threat to her is by gaining control over one of her dragons (Euron?) . Otherwise she will just steamroll through her opposition.
I have to acknowledge the amount of hard work these guys put in to bring us this show every year. It can’t be easy on their families. Also they have great chemistry, “pull-ups” and ” deadlift” and “Iwan, not the dogs, Iwan, nooo! ” is hilarious!
Do you think Cercei and co. will go up against Jon in season 7? I have a feeling she’ll have her hands full plotting revenge against Tyrell and Dorne usurpers while getting word of and preparing for the coming invasion of Dany and co. But it could be that she remains unaware of this but when she does find out about the new KITN this pisses her off enough to summon LF perhaps even offering her hand in marriage if he brings her a head or two (that is if he’s able to talk his way out of what he’s been up to in the north since their talk). Not sure if LF will be tempted by that offer though. Although she could send Jamie and army upon WF that would make it interesting to see what Jamie actually does.
Anyways this quote “Within a group, selfish individuals always win” coupled with “So Jon Snow better hope this is a contest between groups” has me thinking what they mean is it would be worse for him if he has rats within his inner circle scheming than to have openly declared enemy. In other words, LF and maybe Sansa could be the selfish individuals, and their intentions must be routed out and made known before it’s too late?
In 6.08, Jaime (the writers) did make a point of reminding Brienne (the viewers) that Cersei still very much wanted Sansa’s head on a spike… Sansa is in the North, which just declared its independence : two excellent reasons for Cersei to keep her eyes up.
The Lone Lioness may not send troops to the North (too remote and cold) but considering the Riverlands are now in political limbo due to Walder Frey’s death, they could be up for grabs… Cersei needs them to maintain some semblance of territorial unity and Jon may be interested in them for strategic purposes. Once again, the Tullys shall be decisive ! ^^
Cersei now has a relatively short list of enemies, people she loathes and wants dead : Tyrion (if she knows he is still alive), Sansa, Lady Olenna and the Sands. And she is persistent.
Lady Olenna may not look like it but she is in trouble : the Reach has no reason to listen to her. Her House is as good as dead and someone will have to take over eventually. The fight between houses to determine the Tyrells’ successor may begin much earlier than Olenna expects it and some of her “vassals” might be tempted to side with Cersei, hoping for a big payoff.
The Sands have no legitimacy. They seized power through a series of assassinations, not even a war. Could some Dornish families betray them ? It would not be so surprising if Cersei gives them proper incentives…
Assuming Daenerys will not reach Westeros in 7.01 (after all, Euron and his allegedly massive penis are still roaming the seas to find her… And her army has to be decimated a bit, otherwise there would be no challenge ^^), Cersei may have some time to focus her attacks on the South first (much easier) then the North. Never underestimate a cornered rat…
Ha ha ha ! Simple, efficient !
Shadow Shifter,
There is no way they are in-debt to Littlefinger. They are in debt to the Vale, and Robin, and while Littlefinger has a thin grasp on him…it is just that, a very thin grasp. The commander spoke for the Vale Knights in episode 10 while Littlefinger was relegated to a dark corner. That says a lot.
Sorry for the rant but Littlefinger has very little power in the Vale, and he isn’t safe there either. He walks a thin line because a lot of lords would have him dead if he tried to talk Robin into doing something ridiculous.
He didn’t even manipulate Robin into helping Sansa, Robin did that because she is family.
ygritte,
The group would be: Jon, Davos, Tormund, Lyanna Mormont (if she returns), Bran and hopefully Arya.
Everyone who has gone against Jon has either died or been converted to his side, so Team LF is screwed. LF is on borrowed time, and hopefully Sansa wakes the hell up before it’s too late.
Gold,
🙁 My dad is going through the same thing right now… People fighting cancer are pure heroes in my book. One of the worst things that can happen to a person. Love and take care of your family, people.
Honestly, I’ve always had the impression that they don’t like writing for Jon, especially since they’ve dumbed him down so much. He can be capable, while also being moral/altruistic. Ned was a great Warden of the North, but people ignore that because he did not do well in KL (which is an entirely different beast). They also don’t seem to like writing for Bran.
It’s pretty clear who their favorite characters are and it comes out in the writing.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yeah they did bring him up last when listing main protagonists. Also I had got a feeling before as well, nothing specific just in general. The underlying vibe of them could be for a reason I hesitate to say 🙁 They know how it ends and think many will hate them for a bit lol. Or, it could be as simple as just their preferences as screen writers. Might be more fun for them to write for less heroic/more grey characters. I dunno.
Flayed Potatoes,
I don’t know that the writers don’t like writing for him, he has been the biggest focus these last two seasons and that’s due to the writers after all.
I feel, especially this past season, they were so focused on showing Jon as “Ned Stark come again” ( probably to maximise the impact that the r+l reveal will have on Jon) that they are somewhat ignoring Jon as a character in his own right. They have labelled him as “honorable” which apparently means doing the right thing no matter what the circumstances, and how much harm that such actions could ultimately do.
I don’t have much hope that we are ever going to see him being smart and learning to be capable of ruling.
ygritte,
Or he could be the key to everything and the one to rule everyone in the end and they’re just trying to remain as indifferent and cryptic as possible, by in the meantime focusing on other characters that aren’t going to make it in order for people to be ‘surprised’? I don’t know I’m just trying to be optimistic here xD
Flayed Potatoes,
Just because they didn’t write him the way you wanted doesn’t mean they don’t enjoy writing for the character.
I made a comment but it not seems to be appearing ..
Anyway the point I was trying to make in that comment was.,
Jon was the character who had most lines last season even though he only had a speaking role for only 6 episodes..
So yeah its clear D&D don’t like writing for him
Gold,
“Never trust someone whose television is bigger than their bookcase”
Rick Clarke, January 2016
That’s a nice quote …sad to hear the news …my condolences to emilia and her family..
dragonbringer,
They have to tell the story in a way that reflects the story line GRRM wrote/is going to write. That means the main characters who are important to the end have to have prominence and certain lines need to be spoken, but that does not automatically equate that the show writers must have the most fun writing for them or that we can only speculate on what’s their favorite parts of the series to write for based upon who they give the most lines or air time to. Anyways, it’s subjective. There’s no right or wrong answer.
PS If that didn’t make much sense please forgive me, it’s much past my bedtime 🙂
they always favored Dany and Tyrion. I can understand their favoritism for Tyrion, but not for dany to be honest. Dont think she is interesting, most people find her cool because she has dragons… but the writers always have to portray her as if she is some goddess… Thats why I cant really sympathize with her character recently, she kind of had it easy since her season 1 storyline.
Rhaenys Stark,
I will go with your optimism, its a much happier thought 🙂
The great battle will be Sansa vs Dany winner gets Jon
Cersei will be so fun to watch next season!! I can’t wait.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
According to you. Not everyone shares your low opinion on the writing for season 6 so don’t state opinions as absolute truths.
The very last scene: Arya on the last remaining dragon. They fly into sunset to discover what is west of Westeros. Both of them have no place to go back to in Westeros…
ghost of winterfell,
But I think they have. Look I adore Jon over every other character by a whole lot and I had beef with D&D about how they chose to write him in Season 2 but to say that they haven’t shown that Jon is capable of adapting his morals and values to the situation is wrong. In fact, Jon is the only one in Westeros who understands the real struggle. He did the math and concluded that Wildlings this side of the Wall is so much better than dead Wildlings on the north side of the Wall. That to me is intelligent thinking that allows him to discard what he’s been taught about these intruders. Sure, it was Stannis’ idea to let the Wildlings through but his reasoning behind it was much more self-serving. That Jon was able to actually see who the Wildlings actually were, that he was able to see past his own prejudices says a lot about his intellect. Sure, D&D don’t give Jon witty lines the likes reserved for Tyrion but they have shown that he’s indeed a smart man. What Jon lacks and what could be immensely useful to him is malice but I’m afraid that he’ll never develop that in his character. Some good and honorable people just can’t detect malice in others because they simply have no experience with it. That in itself doesn’t make these people dumb just naive.
ygritte,
I think they are saying Jon can win if he keeps attracting good people to his cause–without that he’ll get outmaneuvered.
ygritte,
Its not even he is leading but the margin through which he leads in both screentime and lines…
1. Jon Snow – 186
2. Jaime Lannister – 146
3. Tyrion Lannister – 135
4. Sansa Stark – 129
5. Arya Stark – 128
6. Davos Seaworth – 106
7. Cersei Lannister – 96
8. Daenerys Targaryen – 90
9. Ramsay Bolton – 79
10. Margaery Tyrell – 70
Thanks to the guy from reddit who made this list..
He is been the focus for the last three seasons..
You said that putting jon last maybe shows their preferences to those who are ahead of him..
There was one interview of GRRm where he says his favorite is tyrion and second favorites are arya and dany …
He did not even include jon…does that mean he don’t like writing for him or he is not his favorite..
It will be nice if you guys just venture out of jon snow for once and focus on the other characters. ..you guys may discover other characters are treated the same or way more worse than how jon is being done.
In an adaptation you can’t keep everything from the books but jon snow is the least damaged when you compare how other characters are treated ..
ygritte,
Anyway that comment actually reminds me of chaos is ladder speech from LF..
Group of selfish individuals Lf varys Cersei olenna and all other players play the game and creates chaos..but who will actually climb that ladder and come out top .
Well the answer is how the show ended that episode …it will be jon snow..
No matter the individuals or groups he will always going to be come out on top..just like he beacme LC and KiTN
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Wish they could. Too late now if they finish in 13 episodes
Giocrypt,
Poor Jon. Maybe there’s still time to introduce Val?
dragonbringer,
Liking or not liking has nothing to do with it. Jon is a protagonist, they can’t avoid writing for him. He is one if not the protagonist from the ASoIF series, showrunners can’t ignore that if they intend to follow the general outline of the story. I am not implying that they do or that they do not. I don’t know. But liking a character has little to do with how you write that character. GRRM says he loves Tyrion and Danny yet I’m of the opinion that he did them major disservice in his last book and yet he continually aces any Theon chapter. Theon is, in my opinion, the best written character in all 5 books so far.
While I can allow that D&D have a tendency to reduce Jon to one or two character traits, downplay his important moments, diminish him in order to prop up other characters, and hit the reset button on his character development when it’s convenient, the notion that they dislike writing for him isn’t really well-supported. The tendencies I just listed above are pretty much spread across the board. They may not view Jon as a particularly layered or multidimensional character, which is very much reflected in the writing now that they no longer have book material to draw from, but if we remove the character bias for a moment (which I share, don’t get me wrong), what have they really offered Arya, Tyrion, or Dany over the past two seasons that Jon has lacked? What did Cersei even do during the first half of Season 6? Choosing to name Jon last out of the only four characters they singled out as their favorites to write for, out of a cast of dozens…that doesn’t really spell out “meh” to me, particularly when the first character they listed spent the past two seasons sweeping floors, washing corpses, and getting hit with a stick.
From episode 4×09 onward, Jon has effectively replaced Tyrion as the closest thing GoT has to a male lead. That episode marked the point at which he began receiving more screen time than any other character, even as a corpse. This is also the third season straight where D&D have chosen to center a massive episode or set piece around him. As in, they have literally allocated the majority of their time, energy, money, resources, and promotional push to material that squarely focuses on this one character. I mean, to the point where Tyrion and Dany’s first meeting ultimately went down as “one of the things that happened before Hardhome.” The quality of the writing for Jon’s character is subjective, but the quantity and magnitude of his material isn’t. It’s not like the books are forcing their hand here. Hardhome was original material, and there was no obvious reason to turn the attack on Castle Black into Blackwater 2.0. I have no idea what goes into D&D’s thought process when they’re writing for Jon, but I definitely don’t question the level of enthusiasm. You just don’t keep bending over backwards to center your most prized material around a character you dislike writing for.
elybe,
I agree.
Danny,
Jon’s ability to look at the Wildlings for what they are and his ability to look past his prejudices speaks more about his empathy, imo, which he has in abundance. Also he takes the decision to let them through the Wall because he is the kind of guy who is willing to stick his neck out, to go the whole way where he believes himself to be right. He acts on his convictions.
I am not saying that he is shown to be dumb. But even as you say, if he is too naive to detect malice in others, well such a person should not be able to survive in a place like Westeros for long. And that is how I have seen him be described by people connected with the show sometimes, that Jon is naive.
Danny,
I agree with what you are saying ..but they clearly say they like writing him even then we have this discussion.
Its really annoying everytime to see jon being poor this poor that ..no one loves him or prefers him..
Its pretty clear he is one of the major characters he is popular and loved ..he is not this grey character which other major characters are that make them divisive..
Yeah I agree with you about disservice that he has done..dany got the worst end of removing five year gap and gardening style writing …tyrion comes next in that regards..
My top 5 include dany arya jon jamie and theon stannis in that order ..these are all well written characters with various range and depth in character
elybe,
Well you said very well than me and what I wanted to say ..
One thing I disgaree with your post is ..he is taken the lead role straight away from season 4 premiere ..its just a different jon from the moment and it showed in both his conversations with Sam and then to thorne and slynt and master aemon.
I was actually rather surprised that Davos survived to the end of season 6. Makes me wonder if he might have an important role in the endgame that George told them about. As people have speculated, the main point of the mission Davos is given in book 5 might just be to keep him separated from Stannis.
Same with Melisandre really. I’d expected them to both be goners this season, but it seems those two will significantly outlive Stannis.
Jon had the most screentime this season by a large margin his stroryline even more.And it has been like this for the last three seasons.Look I’m biased here so of course I would like more character development them showing different traits of his personality but let’s be real between all the characters Jon has been one of the least changed from the books.Him and Arya are the ones who most resemble their book counterparts to me and their storylines have been mostly on track with few changes.They do enjoy writing for him,maybe it’s not as exiting as writting quips for Tyrion and the Queen of Thornes or writing monologues for Varys or LF or the crazy turns that Cersei takes but we can’t fault them for that.
A Man Grown,
I’ve thought for a long time that Staniss’s purpose appart from being a Greek tragedy was to bring Melissandre and Davos to Jon.So yeah he did his job
dragonbringer,
I meant more in terms of screen time and focus, since episodes 1 – 8 mainly emphasized Tyrion’s role whereas more than half of Jon’s overall screen time was packed into the final two episodes of Season 4. But you’re right, he began emerging as a leader early on. I already noticed a shift in attitude towards him by viewers after the premiere alone.
ghost of winterfell,
The only person I recall describing him as naive is Sophie Turner. Kit described Jon as being oblivious to Sansa’s current mindset, but can you really blame him when even the viewers can’t agree on where her loyalties lie? The writers, from what I’ve seen, mainly fall back on “honorable” as if that’s a static trait that completely overrides common sense at all times in anyone who possesses it. Jon doesn’t lack the ability to detect malice in his enemies, his issue is that he underestimates how far they are willing to take it. But Jon is also a character who learns. In fact, I would hope that D&D are able to recall that they gave him an entire mini-arc in Season 4 that specifically served the purpose of establishing that Jon is able and willing to learn from his enemies and fight dirty in order to win. He took a page straight out of Karl Tanner’s rule book to defeat a man twice his size. Could be somewhat relevant now, no?
I like Jon, but he is a typical hero. I don’t see what would be so interesting about him when we speak about writing.
I mean compare him with Cersei, LF, Tywin,…
Jenny,
Yeah. Her was the main character in S1. Tyrion in S2-4. And Jon in S5 and S6.
Jenny,
You must be right I suppose. If all three of them died well before the endgame then their storyline wouldn’t have amounted to much in the end.
mau,
Whether or not Jon is a typical hero is debatable, though. I personally see him as a dark horse whose portrayal is far more nuanced than you’re giving him credit for and whose heroism is relatively understated when you remove all the choreography and special effects. He’s lost more than he’s won, and he’s made a lot of choices in the show alone that typical heroes would not have, such as hanging a boy he originally resolved to protect and sending one of his closest friends to his death in order to prevent an enemy breach. Typical heroes “find another way.” Don’t even get me started on some of his actions in ADWD.
Furthermore, the majority of the GoT audience and ASOIAF readership do find him interesting, as evidenced by the sheer amount of discussion and debate he’s generated over the years, and they’re naturally going to expect the writing to reflect the qualities that drew them to the character in the first place. You seem to equate “interesting” with darker shades of gray, dubious loyalties, and selfish motives, which is not a mindset I subscribe to, nor do I believe that heroism and complexity are mutually exclusive.
I also like Jon, but the traits that drew me to his character in the books are not traits we’re likely to ever see on the show, nor are they “typical hero” traits. I like his book counterpart because we quickly learn through his inner monologue that he’s a sarcastic SOB with a dark sense of humor, an occasional petty streak, and the ability to instantly see through other people’s bullshit. As far as the show is concerned, all I ask for is a continuation of the character growth we witnessed during Seasons 4 and 5.
taim,
I agree with you. Season 6 was basically speeches and dragon riding. Nice visual effects, but it’s not something I can connect with.
She was able to send the Reach’s navy to transport Dany without any trouble.
No indication of any dissent with the Sands. Realistically none of the Dornish lords should be listening to them, but in the show, all Dorne apparently hated Doran and wanted him dead.
We know that but the characters might not see it like that. Littlefinger still seems to hold a sway over Sansa. And let’s not forget that Littlefinger is still keeping Cersei in his pocket. Sansa doesn’t know he made a deal with Cersei. He also made a deal with the Tyrells. You really think he won’t use those alliances when he’s backed into a corner?
Flayed Potatoes,
Compared to how they butchered the other characters, they’re doing just fine with Jon. Actually, Jon has it better than, say, Dany who’s increasingly been just one-note for a few seasons now.
That word ‘enormity’ doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Danny,
It’s implied that it’s my opinion. Don’t feel like writing “imo” after every single line I write.
Shane snow,
Maybe S6 they were just getting their ducks in a row for the final 13? Meh… but then you have that woefully uncreative ending to Arya in the House of B & W (among other things), and you have to wonder if that’s the best we’ll get at this point. Don’t really get how they could be proud of that resolution as writers, it was extremely vanilla and a very simple ending to a complicated, mysterious, and fascinating story line. :'(
emperor,
I can write all you wrote and it will all apply to dany as well..
So I will just pick your post ..
She is also a chracter who learn quicly from his mistakes to get up and react quicly to make a decisions. ….dany grew up quicker than the stark children making her more smart and mature than all starks siblings.. her growing up in streets and guests help her to easily read hypocrisy and bullshit in people…she is sarcastic she assume completly his role as leader…and is actually seen and describe havind a sharp mind ..
I wouldn’t call dany “book smart,” as that is more of a Sam thing or a Tyrion thing. SHe is, though, very intelligent, good at reading people, wise beyond her years (in the novels, she’s only 14-16years old) and possessed of a certain political shrewdness and savvy that both Ned and Robb lacked. SHe is also skilled at seeing the merit in people apart from the status of their birth; she can find diamonds in the rough, as it were.
See how that worked ..that’s how they parallel each other ..
Now to the main point I wanted to make..
And dany doesn’t do this ..
Dany always thinks about her failures and shortcomings . she says those to the people openly. .
And hence her constant questioning of jorah barristan and every new person she meets because she wants to learn and even with quentyn she openly admits how less she knew about history and straight away asks him about dorne and daenerys that sent away to dorne ..
I really don’t know how this separates from jon..
If I remember correctly I answered to similar post exactly the same words was you used were used by the poster I don’t remember the name though..
elybe,
I agree with everything you say.
dragonbringer,
I remember they said after final episode of 6 that they made obvious paralells between Robb’s and Jon’s crowning and how it is right to be worried now for Jon because of what happened to his brother after he became king. That and some other things like quote above makes me think he not going to just end up on top of ladder piece of cake. There will be more hardship. I love that we are all in the dark now about what comes next, nobody even those who’ve read the books over don’t know. I told myself I’m remaining mostly spoiler free this year to enjoy it more when comes back on but I have no will-power so I’m just excited for the news and speculation in this off season 🙂
elybe,
You make a good point 🙂
Shadow Shifter,
Butchered other characters? Oh please…
For those who are curious, here’s a comprehensive video on the Battle of Cannae.
Sean C.,
Oh it certainly does seem that, for the moment, everything is going strong for Daenerys’s Southern coalition. 🙂
I was merely pointing out that, were the writers enclined to make the Mother of Dragons’s landing more difficult, there definitely are enough cracks in Lady Olenna and the Sands’ holds on their respective regions to make it happen somewhat organically and in a way that makes sense politically.
Realistically, the Reach and Dorne could overthrow them. Will they ? I do not know. But the possibility exists.
The same logic applies to Varys. His “little birds” (at least the King’s Landing ones) seem to have switched allegiance to Qyburn (unless they are double-crossing him). Therefore, one may wonder how reliable the intel the Spider receives is… It may play a role at some point. So may the fact that the Sands murdered Tyrion’s beloved niece whom he had sent to Dorne explicitly so she would be safe.
Overall, Daenerys’s camp looks invincible at the moment. However, there are some very real fracture lines that could, if the writers chose to, make the whole construction collapse.
Shadow Shifter,
They’ve improved a lot more characters than they’ve “butchered.”
The one question I haven’t seen asked, or maybe if it was asked of D&D I haven’t seen their reply, is what was the reasoning behind having Jon’s resurrection play out so ho hum after Oathbreaker? That has been my biggest issues with Jon’s story. I wonder if they even have a reason for this.
GodofTitsandWine,
I honestly think it was because of this manufactured rift they made between Sansa and Jon. Did you notice how Sansa and Jon never had a conversation about the resurrection? I think the reason for this is because it would have brought them closer together. At the very least, it would’ve thrown an awkward wrench into their plans for Sansa to mistrust Jon so they avoided bringing it up.
I trust D&D to entertain me good and proper. I would hope for a bit more character exploring – longer and deeper conversations, more use of the ace actors they have (yes, non surprisingly I’m thinking of Alfie Allen/Theon Greyjoy in particular.) I love the grande scenes but it’s the scenes when two characters act opposite one another that make the hairs on my arms rise and my heart and mind be moved. I think that the fact that there are fewer characters by now should make more “one on one” scenes possible. A lot of viewers love the show for those very moments.
Looking at the story so far, I feel the major purpose of Jon’s “death and resurrection” was so he could get out of Castle Black and the Wall, and get involved in Northern (and later, Westerosi, hopefully) politics, with a sense of urgency (knowing there’s nothing beyond death).
I also think that the reason Jon was sent to the Wall in the story in the first place, was so he could integrate with the Wildlings, and gain knowledge of WWs and their army. A parallel: why was Daenerys not married to some rich person in one of the Essosi cities in the beginning? To make her integrate the Dothraki in the story and hatch her dragons far away to the east.
I must say, I loved all the Theon and Yara conversations this season. In his last scene, looking at the Greyjoy banner, Theon seemed to finally find his place in the world and regain his sense of worth.
Flayed Potatoes,
ygritte,
I don’t get that vibe at all
And I didn’t feel jon was dumbed down
taim,
I find her very interesting. Her evolution, her struggles on ruling, her wanting to help slaves and women because of her childhood, her learning of her family through selmy. Simply love her story
A Man Grown,
Melly will meet arya before she dies
Shadow Shifter,
Hahahahaha wow!
Singedbylife,
Seriously though, with 13 episodes left, expect much less of that. I think the time for most character development has passed people. It’s been 60 episodes and only have the main characters now. Stories are interrwining and coming to a close. , yes we will have new character relationships because our main caharvaters are going to start meeting but we won’t be having the same type of screen time spent oncharacter relationship developments we had in the best
The stories are ending. Season 6 was much of that. People didn’t like it but it’s called payoffs for story lines and characters
GodofTitsandWine,
I think the reasoning was that Jon came back broken, with no real wish to live. He had no drive in him, no confidence, he considered himself a failure. Things changed only when he had to fight to survive in the battle. His true rebirth happened when he had to force his way out of the pile of dead bodies, that’s when he made the choice to live.
There was a good post about this on Reddit when the season ended.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4pndkb/everything_jons_story_in_battle_of_the_bastards/
Flayed Potatoes,
But he failed at the single most important task of his job: protecting the North. To head south when there is talk of White walkers in the North, was a failure.
Gold,
My condolences to emilia and her family….RIP
Greenscreenseer,
I like this image
Anon,
There is a defense case to be made for Ned’s failing to stand by the North while White Walkers were being talked about… He only got one warning, which could easily be attributed to the ramblings of a mad man or a deserter who wishes to escape punishment by making up fables, and then he felt duty-bound to head to King’s Landing. Had he stayed in the North, he probably would have received more information relating to the White Walkers’ return and he may have taken them seriously. We will never know.
However, I would agree to say that Ned was not a great ruler.
His stern charisma, his military accomplishments and the fact that he was the King’s BFF made him a respected Warden of the North. His Lords seemed to appreciate him which is great.
However, from Roose Bolton’s own admission, the people living off the lands surrounding the Dreadfort were subject to rather appaling mistreatment. One only has to listen to Roose’s tale about Ramsay’s conception to know that at least some of the commoners who lived under Bolton’s rule suffered horribly and unjustly at his hand, long before he unleashed his trained-to-be-deranged son onto the world.
Ned, as Warden of the (whole) North, was responsible for those people. Either he didn’t have the information network necessary to know about Roose’s exactions or he ignored them. For decades. One way or the other, he failed rather spectacularly at protecting a non-negligible chunk of the population under his wardenship.
So Ned was probably not a great ruler. But one could say he was a good “curator”, so to speak. He maintained the North, kept it in the state he inherited it. That’s something.
ACME,
Hi ACME! I’ll have to disagree with your assessment about Ned. I think you are being overly harsh. Poor Ned. 🙁
True, he was not a great political mind and his unbreakable sense of honor sometimes got in the way of him doing what was necessary instead of what was right. However, I think it is not fair to accuse him of not being a good Warden of the North just because Roose Bolton did some nasty things. If I remember correctly, Ramsay has more or less the same age than Jon or Robb (maybe a tad older). This indicates that he was conceived either when Ned was at the Eyrie or at war, with the North being an acephalous entity. So Ned could not possibly do anything to “correct” Roose or to “protect/avenge” the peasentry. And even if he could, he got other things in mind. I’ll grant you that he did lack of a good network of informants (a la Varys) to let him know the whereabouts of his subjects. But I cannot imagine him resorting to that method. Because of his honor… 😉
So, not an impecable ruler, not a terrible one either. 🙂
Hello there ! 😉
To be honest, I really do not think Ned was a horrible ruler. In fact, I would be tempted to think he was an average one. Neither extraordinarily good nor horribly bad.
I’m going out on a limb here obviously, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that Roose only behaved monstrously on that one occasion, with Ramsay’s mother. A man who instructs his son to victimise people (in the immortal words of said progeny : “My mother taught me not to throw stones at cripples. But my father taught me, aim for their head”) is not just a very harsh lord; he is a sadistic one. Granted, his cruelty was more carefully distilled than his child’s but, in substance, they were quite similar.
So I would tend to assume Roose’s reign of terror over his lands did not stop when Ned returned from the Rebellion but kept going. For years. Under Ned’s nose.
Which begs the question :
A Dornish Tyrell
Is it right not to do what is necessary ?
Damn you, ASOIAF/GOT, for your morally ambiguous riddles !!! 😉
However, you may be right; I might be a bit too tough on Ned…
I like the guy, don’t get me wrong. I really do. His chapters in A Game of Thrones are some of my favourites; they are permeated with a quiet, serene nobility that is truly admirable. And, on the show, Sean Bean did a remarkable job bringing the character to life, with the right amount of dignified gravitas and just a hint of gruff awkwardness.
But I have to confess that since the R+L=J confirmation, this scene comes back to mind and I think : “Proud of yourself, Ned ? You wrecked both your wife your nephew, you stupid man !”
I probably shouldn’t but I do.
PS Catelyn prayed for Jon to make it through a “long night”… Well done, Catelyn ! (Tully Trouts of Thunder FTW ^^)
Certainly! I even bet Roose’s reign of terror started even before Ned inherited the North… I guess Rickard Stark was quite oblivious of it as Ned was then… Oh, those Starks with their slow minds!! 😛
In any case, I would imagine thata Wardens only meddled in conflicts between Lords (borders, successions, inheritance, etc.) or external aggressions, leaving the “internal affairs” of each feud to its respective lord…
Ha ha ha! Damn it, indeed!! 😀
Yes!! Stupid stupid Ned!! If only he would have had more confidence in his wife and told her about Jon, he would have spared both Catelyn and Jon a lot of suffering! I cannot forgive him either letting Jon in the dark about his identity once he decided to join the Night’s Watch… I understand he did it to protect him from Robert’s wrath, but it still was a callous move…
And yet, I like the guy. 🙂
Dee Stark,
What?! Character development never stops. Doesn’t matter how many episodes left.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
That was GRRM’s problem with the last two books. He focused more on character development than he did on plot, allowing the tv show to catch up on him. You’re right that character development doesn’t stop, but with the story coming to an end, it’s understandable that the focus would be more on the story than the characters.
Someone should send this quote of theirs from the article to George RR Martin:
“One practical thing we’ve learned as writers is how to work almost anywhere. We had specific, persnickety routines, before. This chair, this coffee mug, this time of day. When we started Thrones, it quickly became apparent that our old ways of working would prevent us from getting the scripts done on time, and that this in itself could destroy the show. So we got better at working wherever we were, whenever we could. And that’s been really helpful, realizing that what we thought we “needed” to work effectively was really just a kind of magical thinking, and that we could get words down anywhere. They weren’t always good words. They often needed to be rewritten, and rewritten again. But they fed the machine, and kept things moving.”
A Dornish Tyrell,
Good old Ned. Well, it’s cause we know his heart was in the right place, that’s why we can forgive him for this.
Rhaenys Stark,
Sorry to hear that Rhaenys. Wishing you and your family the best.
dragonbringer,
That breakdown of minutes/lines is very interesting in that it didn’t even seem that was while viewing. It has Jon at the most and Jamie second but Dany at bottom, while it seemed to me that Sansa and Cercei have more time than the two guys and I would have thought Dany be in the middle somewhere. Maybe upon a 2nd viewing it would feel different.
Young Dragon,
Story is comprised of characters and their development. There are 13 hours left, it’s not going to be one huge battle after another.
Young Dragon,
He got stuck in world building and side stories not character development.
He developed Jaime’s character more in 3 chapters then he did Tyrion’s in 13.
Lord Parramandas,
Look, I love the show but they totally butchered the Sand Snakes, Ellaria, Doran and Areo Hotah. One can love the show and still criticize it for its missteps.
Improved? Really? Or maybe they were on point about certain character motivations which brought the characters to life.
ygritte,
Thank you ygritte 🙂 Wishing the same to you as well.
Ned was put in an untenable situation when Jon Arryn died especially when Cat got that letter from Lysa. Yes, he was tasked to protect the North but it’s not just the North he’s sworn to protect but the realm. The “threat” down south is far more real to Ned than the threat up north about ice monsters no one has seen for thousands of years.
Let’s remember that these characters aren’t omniscient, and they make decisions based on the information THEY have, not on the information readers or show watchers have.
I totally agree 🙂
I think the answer is inclunded in your choice of words: doing what’s necessary isn’t always morally right 🙂 In Ned’s case there was a choice to be made as we’ve discussed somewhere else: he could keep silent about Geoffrey’s parentage, and not only save himself, but also protect his family AND gain power at the same time. Had he chosen to do what was necessary we would have had an entirely different story- or no story at all. He chose honour and law, and mercy (giving Cercei a head’s up to have time to save her children): to me that’s what great rulers do – in contrast to great politicians: they put moral duty above their own ego, interests and above their life.
Ned was most certainly NOT a great politician (I’ve always taken that as a compliment 😀 ) , but he wasn’t one by choice: he could have sitted on that Throne, because he got there before Robert. But he chose not to. He didn’t want anything to do with KL and its dirty politics, because he chose to live an entirely different life. He is aware at all times, of the available choices, and he chooses the difficults ones. This is the stuff my heroes are made of – if they did what was necessary for their survival, they wouldn’t be admirable, it is the choice to do what’s beyond and above them that gives birth to greateness – even if that combination of inflexibility, lack of ambition or inability-refusal to play the Game, gets them killed.
As to whether he was a good ruler or not, I will have to disagree, because if we are to judge that, we have to understand the context of this world, which much resembles Middle ages, and feudal system.
Even the nicest ruler, with the best intentions could not have stopped a Lord from handling his subjects in a bad manner or starving them to death: the law didn’t care about how the subjects were treated, or if they died from hunger. The law was there to establish the general rules, about stealing, killing and etc, and the law was heavily bend on occasion based on who had commited the crime ( even if they hadn’t commit a crime). No law for individual rights, and no justice at all for the majority of people. A feudal lord was free to govern his land and subjects in any way he wished, practically, and that was protected by law. And yes, the laws were created from the rich and highborn, for the rich and highborn. It’s bad, but that’s what it was.
See what we have in KL, from the very start and regardless of who sits on the throne: the people are starving, they are mistreated and are subject to every whim of the highborns, expendable, as if they are not human. And that is what’s happening everywhere in Westeros.
We are not shown whether Ned was aware of the Bolton’s cruelties, but even if he were, there wouldn’t be much he could do. But what we have seen, is that he ruled with a firm hand, doing his best to apply the letter of the law in a merciful, but just way so that anyone would know that if they broke it, they would suffer the consequences regardless of who they are; were he not who he was, people like Bolton would have gone completely out of control, as they did, after Ned was killed.
Politicians – even the best of them – are not suitable to be rulers: a Great Ruler, first of all, must be someone that is capable of putting the greater good above his own when needed, and that will inevitably have its consequences on their welfare and that very fact would make them bad politicians. When purebred politicians rule, you have… Westeros in the Game of Thrones. Or our world, for that matter. 🙂
Which brings me to D&D’s mention about Jon: ‘The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies’
I really hope he does overcome them! Honorable men rarely – if ever -win in the real world. Since this is fantasy – therefore there’s the opportunity to go against reality – I hope he makes it (with a little help from his friends!) 🙂
ACME,
A Dornish Tyrell,
Guys, you are being so harsh on Ned!!
ACME Yes, one version of Catelyn did say that. Yet another version told Jon (when he was about to get out of their lives as she always wanted) that he should have been the one to fall from the tower instead of Bran….
Regarding Ned not telling the truth to Catelyn, that was not him being stupid. When he came back from the war with Jon, he and Catelyn were near perfect strangers who barely knew each other. They had married, but they had barely spent a day together. Could he have told her later on when he came to know her better? Maybe, but he would also know that if Cat would ever get reason to believe that her children’s lives were being put in danger by harboring their secret, she wouldn’t hesitate to give Jon up. Now we know that such a situation eventually never rose, nobody suspected Jon’s truth, but Ned could not have known this for sure when he had to make these decisions. The decision he took was hard on all his family, but it was the right decision.
About Roose Bolton, does being unaware of his crimes equal to slow minds on the part of the Starks? Even in our world, in the so called information age, we hear so many stories of people commiting heinous crimes, over a period of time, in their own backyard, which even the neighbors remain completely oblivious of. These things happen. In a medieval world in Westeros, is it so unbelievable that a person who takes all the precautions can hide his crimes from the world. And Roose, by his own admission, was very careful to hide his doings from others. “A peaceful land, a quiet people” he is one dangerous and clever guy! I don’t think this necessarily makes Ned stupid or careless.
Ned was not just a competent ruler, he was loved and respected by almost all the lords ( including the mountain clans) of the North. Which means he was doing something right.
Southern politics was a whole different ballgame though, which he was woefully unequipped to handle.
Rhaenys Stark,
So sorry about that. Hope he recovers soon.
Anon,
Lmao
Dude he had no idea the WW even existed. In season 1 they were just stories. He hasn’t seen the things Jon saw later in the show. He’s not omniscient.
Dee Stark,
Just read his chapters and you’ll see.
Rhaenys Stark,
I hope your dad gets better soon. Best wishes to all of you.
elybe,
This made me miss Book!Jon. 🙂 I hope I get to read again the books – maybe after the TV series have wrapped up. He’s definitely not the typical hero. Yup, he’s flawed but at the same time he’s not “unintelligent”. He could be honorable and dutiful (although if you tell that to Ygrette she’d probably say, “Honorable? Pffffttttt…”) The character is very challenging to play actually, because he’s such an introvert and TV!Jon simply doesn’t have the means to verbalize the inner monologues of his book counterpart.
ghost of winterfell,
I agree! You articulated your points really well.
As regards Catelyn’s behavior towards Jon, it was her own choice to treat the boy like she did. NO ONE forced her to be like that with him. As for Ned not telling her the truth, would you tell someone you barely know this very big secret? Granted she’s your wife but there’s no telling what she’d do if she knew. As years went by, maybe Ned should have gained trust in her but perhaps he was just so afraid of what could happen if word would leak out that he simply avoided talking about it (it was mentioned a few times on the show that he didn’t talk much about Lyanna either). So, I don’t know why Ned should be condemned for what he did given the circumstances.
Sam,
ghost of winterfell,
Thank you so much guys 🙂 I really appreciate it.
Flayed Potatoes,
I read those chapters 4 times and I don’t see it.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Plot isn’t only about huge battles. Plot is also the events that take place leading up to the new battles. I’m not saying character development will cease. I’m saying there will be less focus on it as we near the end. The show won’t sacrifice plot for character development like the books did.
Mihnea,
World building was also a big problem, but since we were talking about character development, I kept my post limited. Brienne’s Feast chapters were all about her learning the hypocrisy of knightly vows. Tyrion’s Dance chapters were about him coming to terms with Shay’s death. Jon and Dany were learning how to rule. Sam developed as a character. Jaime’s arc was all about becoming a better man. Add all of this with the Dorne and Greyjoy chapters, and you get the mess that is AFFC/ADWD.
Very true…
Allow me to rephrase then : Is it right not to do what is necessary, if people suffer as a result of what is necessary not being done ? 🙂
SiriuslyStark
That would be my main bone of contention, actually…
Ned described his decision as motivated by mercy, however can it truly be qualified as such ?
In his own words to Cersei :
Is that “mercy” ? Giving people a headstart before unleashing a relentless, murderous beast to go after them ? Had someone done the same thing to Ned, would he have found it “merciful” ? If someone had come up to Ned and told him “I know Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar’s son. I am going to tell Robert. Tell your nephew to start running”, would he have thanked that person for their “mercy” ?
Were Ned truly that obsessed about the safety of Cersei’s children, then there would be only one viable option : keeping his mouth shut. Not out of ambition or powerhunger but out of genuine mercy. Ned knows and understands it. He has been doing just that for close to two decades in relation to Jon. Why can’t he do it for Cersei’s children ?
His decision to reveal the truth of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen’s parentage to Robert is, in effect and as far as he is aware, a death sentence for the three children and their mother. Therefore, by his own standards (“he who passes the sentence should swing the sword”), he should not wait for Robert’s return but kill Cersei and her progeny himself… Which he very obviously does not want to do because he realises how despicable the cold-blooded assassination of children in the name of their parents’ identity is. So he attempts to assuage his conscience by warning Cersei of the hell he intends to put her kids through. Yeah for Team Mercy ! 😉
Ned’s problem is not that he is honourable; it is that his honour is all over the place. His list of priorites seems to be : 1) keeping his promise to his dead sister (that supercedes everything); 2) being loyal to Robert (because being BFF with a man he sincerely believes capable of murdering Jon is apparently a sensible thing to do); 3) protecting the innocent (we may hate Joffrey but there is no denying both Myrcella and Tommen were charming, lovable and kind children).
In my highly subjective and eminently disputable opinion, this list’s validity is very questionable indeed.
Ned desperately tries to square the circle of his multi-layered, contradictory principles and allegiances instead of striving for inner logic and consistency. It does not make him a villain, of course. It does not even make him stupid. But it does make him a bit of a hypocrite, ultimately. A very honourable, noble and kind hypocrite but a hypocrite all the same.
SiriuslyStark
I would both agree and disagree 🙂
By and large, medieval politics care very little for the people, the peasantry… Basically anyone who is not the nobility (take it away, Monty Pythons ^^).
However, the law is whatever the nobility says it is. A Warden, be he of the North, the South, the West or Right Behind You, is perfectly allowed to decide that the persecution of the population is not acceptable conduct and he has the authority to take down any lord who fails to abide by whatever principle he, the Warden, chooses to put in place.
So, technically, Ned would have been perfectly within his rights had he wished to overtake the Boltons (Castamere style).
It is entirely possible, indeed. I would not go so far as to say Catelyn wouldn’t hesitate; to the contrary, I think she would feel terribly torn over it. Nonetheless, there is little to no doubt she would ultimately choose her children over her nephew any day of the week.
The real tough question is : what would Ned choose, if such a “Sophie’s Choice” presented itself to him ? Would he choose his own kids or his nephew ? Can we realistically think he would (or even should !) pick Jon over all of his five children ? I doubt Ned himself would have known how to answer that question…
So, while the question you put forward is very sound, we cannot hold Catelyn to different, higher standards than Ned would have held himself to.
I wholeheartedly agree with you when you assert that Ned and Catelyn barely knew each other when they married which gave credence to Ned’s initial wariness. However, after a couple of years, if he trusted her enough to be his children’s mother, he could have trusted her enough with his one secret instead of allowing both her and Jon to suffer as a result of it.
Would it have been a risk ? Absolutely. But no greater a risk than he, Ned, was, ultimately.
ghost of winterfell
House Bolton’s sigil is a flayed man and their words are “Our blades are sharp” ^^
Forgive my facetiousness but to continue your neighbour analogy, it would be as if someone had a massive sign that read “I am a bloodthirsty serial killer” over their frontdoor. Wouldn’t it make sense for said someone’s neighbours to take a peek over their fences to check whether something odd was indeed happening in this person’s backyard ? 😉
The Boltons are famous for their ruthlessness. There are many rumours floating around the Dreadfort (their castle is called Dreadfort, for Pete’s sake !). Ned, as Warden of the North, must have heard a few tales about the cells and torture chambers beneath the fort… Wouldn’t it warrant a little investigation, just to make sure ? He had no qualms playing medieval Hercule Poirot when he thought Jon Arryn had been killed. ^^
ghost of winterfell
You’re absolutely right. We are being tough on him. But come on ! He is usually so revered, so venerated… Ned did this, Father said that… He can take a small bruising once in a while. Keeps him on his toes 😉
Rhaenys Stark,
So sorry I missed your post !
I sincerely hope your father gets better.
ACME,
I admire you for being so different! You nitpick and find every bit of negative thing about Ned and his actions (and can shoot down any justification for his actions) and yet you find every bit of positive things about LF (and can justify so well why he does what he does). You’re definitely one of a kind and we do need diversity here. Sometimes I wonder if you’re Aidan Gillen himself, haha! I may not agree but it was a nice post.
And yet he forged a royal document. Remember when Robert was dictating his Will? Ned changed “my son” for “my rightful heir”. So Ned is capable of some degree of dishonesty, yet he is so enamoured with his own sense of honor that it prevents him from acknowledging it. He could have exposed Cersei to a dying Robert, locked her up and then, when the king passed away, offered her a royal pardon (as acting Hand) and exhiled her and her children to Casterly Rock before Stannis arrival to KL, without the need of forging anything… 🙂
Of course the story would have been entirely different.
And to be clear, I trully like Ned. I just think he wasn’t as honorable as he thought he was. 🙂
That’s only because I trully like him. 🙂
I agree with you that he cannot be blamed for Roose’s treatment of his subjects.
Regarding Cat and Jon. You are absolutely right. When Ned returned, Cat and him barely kew each other. It would have been silly to reveal Jon’s identity to her at that moment. But after 14 years (in the books, 17 in the show) of a good and loving marriage? I guess with each passing year it got more and more awkward to reveal the truth… Other than that, I have a difficult time imagining Ned leaving Cat and Jon in the dark (with the pain that created) for so long.
Don’t take it to heart!! 🙂
It’s just a jest with ACME. 😀
You are absolutely right!! Ned’s lies to Cat might explain her feelings and behaviour towards Jon but it doesn’t exonerate them.
ACME,
Thank you you’re very kind 🙂
ACME,
very interesting post above, agree with much of it.! Martin was so good about character development that he made Ned a noble man but also one who’s nobility caused him to make impolitic decisions. I think he is so beloved for that trait that viewers and readers could push aside any question they might have of his decisions because he was seen as the protaganist in the story. His beheading shocked and saddened most everyone. But five years on, its probably time to talk about those decisions and why he made them and the implications of them.
And to think it all started with Little Finger whispering sweet lies to Lysa……
ACME,
Yes, it does mean that they’re bloodthirsty. But what of it? The Boltons swore allegiance to House Stark but I doubt that gives Ned or anyone in the North the power to interfere in how the Bolton’s run their territory. Not really. Unless they rebel against the Starks or attack another family in the North, there’s really nothing that Ned can do. I don’t really think Jon Arryn’s death and Ned’s involvement in it is a fair comparison.
Sam,
You may be onto something here, with the Aidan Gillen remark. So many of his comments are anti-Stark, with the exception of Sansa and Catelyn, very suspicious 🙂 .
Yeah, I enjoy reading his comments too, whether I agree with them or not.
I do think that Catelyn would be a bigger risk than Ned, that both of them should be held to a different standard in this case. It was Ned who made the promise, to his dying sister. I am not saying that he would have chosen his nephew over his 5 children if such a situation did arise, but he would definitely have held on until the very last moment, when he would be absolutely sure that there was no other way, if he did decide to give up his nephew. The same thing cannot be said about Catelyn. We know how impulsive and emotional she is when it comes to her children. She arrested Tyrion, purely on LF’s word, because she thought that he had tried to get her son killed. We know how much trouble that caused for Ned. She released Jaime, their most valuable POW, sneaking him away without her son’s notice, because she thought that that was the best way to get her daughters back. So yeah, I do think she wold not have hesitated much to give Jon up, if she thought her children’s lives were at risk. (even though she would have felt guilty about it.)
In fact in AGOT Ned specifically wonders about it,
Ned thought, “If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.”
It was not a risk he was willing to take.
The Boltons have had the same sigil and castle for 8000 years. Why should that make Ned go snooping into Roose’s affairs unless he had some specific info/ knowledge? Which presumably he didn’t. Are we assuming that all the Lords Bolton who came before Roose were criminals based on their ancestry? If they were not and they did live by and large according to the laws of the land, then why should Roose be thought to be different? The Jon Arryn thing is different. He had specific info here, a letter by his wife’s sister.
I do not really remember reading about the rumors surrounding Dreadfort. I thought the first time that the Boltons came to the notice of Winterfell was when Ramsay married Lady Hornwood and locked her up?
Even if Ned heard rumors about the tortures being carried on in the cells of Dreadfort, he did not have the power to dictate how the Boltons ran their territory. Ned was a product of a feudalistic society, he was not going to overrun their system because he was concerned about the fair treatment of the common people in prisons. And not just Dreadfort, how many people in how many cells all over Westeros would be facing different and innovative ways of torture? Who really is to be held responsible for that? But this would become a different discussion altogether.
My only point was that Ned cannot be held to be a failed ruler because he could not detect and stop Roose’s crimes, when he did everything in his power to keep them a secret from the world.
Aww, Ned is not always revered/ venerated, not by the readers/ audience. There are lots of people who feel he was just naive/ stupid etc.
I do agree about the point you made about Ned wanting to expose Cersei’s secret (which involved protecting children from Robert’s wrath) as opposed to him doing everything possible to keep his own secret (which again involved protecting children from Robert’s wrath). This is the first time I saw this point being made and you are right.
ACME,
I am going to defend Ned in the Cersei matter as well 🙂 . Thanks to Lysa Arryn and LF, he believed that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn. He also thought that the king’s life was in danger, which was the main reason he went to KL as Hand. He now found out the reason behind this. Did he not have a reasonable reason to believe that the Lannisters could kill Robert too to protect their secret? In which case, keeping the whole thing quiet was not an option.
Ned had to make some very difficult choices, the situations he faced, there were no easy answers.
ghost of winterfell,
My introduction to Ned was in S1E1 (I only started reading the books after watching season 1) when he brought his 10 y.o. son to watch him behead a man. Imagine my horror! “How can this man do this to his son?” was my thought. (That was before I understood, silly me, that it was a completely different era.) I also disliked him when he killed Lady (well, mainly because I love dogs). So, I’m not one of those who revered him. Most people I know who watch the show also often talk about how “stupid” Ned was, without realizing how difficult it must be for the guy to be faced with those choices and circumstances — Make a promise to my dying sister or not? Keep my promise to my dead sister or not? Protect my nephew at all cost or not? Take a risk and tell my wife about my big secret or not? Tell my best friend his wife is f*cking her twin brother and that his children are actually not his or not? Protect the twincest kids or not? Did he make the right choice at all times? Maybe not. That exasperated some of my viewer friends. And so just like you, I haven’t gotten the sense that he was revered at all. Although unlike them, I wouldn’t go as far as to say he’s “stupid” or “hypocritical” because I understood those were not easy choices to make.
Imagine if Ned’s thought process about that was like this: “I’ve been keeping a secret to keep my promise to my beloved dead sister and protect her son, my own blood, from being persecuted by the king. Now, I just discovered that my king’s children are actually not his but his queen’s twin brother’s and they will surely be persecuted. I should keep my mouth shut though because if not, I’ll be such a hypocrite. I protected my nephew, my own blood, and yet I couldn’t protect these 3 Lannister children? I don’t care if their twin parents could be plotting to kill the king. I must keep my mouth shut. I must.” Hehe… Imagine the criticism that people would have lobbed at Ned if he did that.
And if Ned really knew his wife, he should have known that (and could very well be the reason he couldn’t bring himself to tell her). Maybe, Ned’s mistake was that he hoped for the ideal scenario – he would take Jon as his own and protect him as he promised his sister, his wife would be heartbroken but she’d eventually accept the situation and heal (after all, he’d be a devoted husband to her from then on), and they would all live happily ever after. Was it stupid to hope for this ideal scenario? Probably. But I have a feeling most of us would also hope for that kind of scenario given the circumstances. As for Catelyn suffering through the years, eventually it was her own doing. To say that Ned is the sole person to blame is like saying that Catelyn doesn’t have her own agency and that her suffering is caused by external factors. She’s the one who chose to hold on to that pain and grief. Worse, because she couldn’t handle it, she lashed out at the boy, who didn’t do anything to her! That’s on her.
Hi to all! 🙂
I see Sam, Ghost of Winterfell and Shadow Shifter have pretty much already covered points I would have made – I agree with most of what you guys have written! 🙂
Some more thoughts:
ACME: Very true…
Allow me to rephrase then : Is it right not to do what is necessary, if people suffer as a result of what is necessary not being done ?
And that it is the million dollar question! I wish I could give a plausible answer, but whether in the show or in real life, this is indeed a tough one.
I think that, if it comes to that, you’re already seriously cornered: no matter what you choose someone will suffer. What could – maybe – make a difference would be to choose who may suffer, if you can’t avoid that, and to what purpose. But I believe these are textbook no win/no win situations.
That would be my main bone of contention, actually…
Ned described his decision as motivated by mercy, however can it truly be qualified as such ?
In his own words to Cersei : (…)
Is that “mercy” ? Giving people a headstart before unleashing a relentless, murderous beast to go after them ? Had someone done the same thing to Ned, would he have found it “merciful” ?
If you take his words out of context it doesn’t show a merciful action. But if you take it back into Ned’s context at that moment, it does.
Ned is cornered: after he finds out the truth, he knows that Cercei/Jamie are responsible for what happened to his child, Bran. That’s enough to piss off anyone! He is led to believe – like us – that they also killed Jon Arryn, the man who he saw like a father. He has seen that Joffrey is a monster and Cercei plays dirty.
He believes that Robert is in danger. His life is clearly in danger and the life of his children too. The Lannisters have the numbers, their army, and the connections.
What do you do? Time is against you, you have to act; the law is on your side: this is a case of incest; you’re outnumbered and practically all alone in the enemy’s playground.
He is in this mess, and his first concern is to protect Robert, and the only way to do that -and stop the killings Lannisters are doing to protect their secret- is by telling him the truth.
While he could do that and leave Cercei and kids to Robert’s wrath, he decides instead to talk to her, advice her to take her army and leave as soon as possible – knowing Robert will be mad. By the time Robert would return and Ned would speak to him, Cercei would be far away to safety, with her family’s army, and father/brother, to protect what’s theirs. Yes, Robert would go after them. But they would be prepared to deal with him, and they would most likely have won: they had the money and the men.
We must not confuse the merciful application of law, with total impunity. Someone had to stop Cercei, and she had to be confronted with the law. Her children were completely innocent of this, that’s true, and that’s why Ned gives her time, to allow her to protect her children: applying the law, with mercy for her children.
Let’s not forget that Ned risked his head and position by opposing the King and the Council on Dany’s matter: they all wanted her dead with her unborn child, and Ned was the only one who stood for what’s right, even if he was alone.
He does respect life. And he tries to save Dany right to the end, asking Robert to cancel that order. Why does that matter? Because it’s one more important clue to the establishement of who Ned was. If we are to judge him, we must do it looking at the big picture of his arc and the context in which he makes his choices. 🙂
Ned desperately tries to square the circle of his multi-layered, contradictory principles and allegiances instead of striving for inner logic and consistency.
Aren’t we all? 🙂 Though, there is inner logic, and there is consistency: too much consistency, and that’s why he becomes predictable to his enemies. 🙂
It does not make him a villain, of course. It does not even make him stupid. But it does make him a bit of a hypocrite, ultimately. A very honourable, noble and kind hypocrite but a hypocrite all the same.
I have to disagree on that one: I don’t think that keeping Jon’s secret makes him a hypocrite: we really can’t compare Ned’s keeping Jon’s secret of parentage with Cercei’s secret of her children’s parentage – the only similarity is that all children are innocent of their parentage, but that’s where any similarity ends.
Jon’s neither a danger to anyone’s life, Robert’s or whoever elses, nor does he claim the throne. Ned didn’t bend or broke the law, to keep that secret, nor was Jon the product of incest. Cercei commited incest, lied to get her children/hands on the throne and killed people to keep her secret. Whatever mischief could come for her family, she created it herself.
It really is like comparing apples with elephants, dear ACME. 😀
Robert was dying and he wanted to make his Will. Ned had the choice of telling him the truth right there and distract a very cruel order that would probably demand Cercei and Co’s heads. His friend is dying and he knows that Cercei had something to do with it. He doesn’t say anything. All he does, likely in moment’s thought, is not to include ‘my son’, and just write ‘rightful heir’. Were Jeoffrey the rightful heir, there would be no difference – therefore it’s not dishonest. What Ned does here, is to ensure that he will be able to apply justice for Robert – and all other victims- without Robert’s wrath, since things brought it to that. We can see his chain of thought, from his next moves. And when he gives that paper to Cercei, it’s clear that he doesn’t want to harm her or her children: he didn’t ask LF to ‘kill them all’. If LF didn’t backfire, and Ned went through with his plans we would definitely have another story – most likely would have send them all to exile as you suggest.
Now, all of that of course does not mean or make Ned a saint. He was only human, and yes, he made mistakes. We found out about the truth about that ToJ fighting; he could have told Cat the truth about Jon, when he felt he could trust her with that truth (unless it was that he felt he couldn’t trust her with that truth, for some reason we don’t know. I can imagine though, that if Cat knew, and somehow came to choosing between her kids/Ned and Jon, she would most definitely give Jon away.) so Jon would grow up with some kind of affection from her side.
I totally agree with what Sam writes above – Cat brought that suffering to herself: she wouldn’t let his supposed infidelity go, even though, all that infidelity brought to her as a consequence was an innocent child. Ned never showed a special affection to Jon from his other kids that could make her jealous and he was the ideal husband all these years, so it was solely Cat’s obsessions that caused her prolonged suffering.
If we are to hold something against him, is as ACME mentioned, his inability, or refusal, to communicate his thoughts, fears, or intentions with his kin! There were times that it would most definitely have made a difference. All Starks have a problem in communicating with each other! 😀
Sam,
I agree, Cat’s behavior towards Jon was completely on her. She chose to forgive the man who cheated on her and who decided to bring up his bastard son in their home, while she transferred all her hatred towards an innocent child who did no wrong. We can empathize with her, but it doesn’t remove her part in making the situation what it was.
A Dornish Tyrell,
If Ned had exposed Cersei to a dying Robert, there was a good chance that Robert would have ordered that Cersei, Jaime and their children be put to their deaths. In which case poor Ned would be left with the choice of either enforcing Robert’s last wishes and executing children or he would have to go against the king’s dying wishes and face whatever consequences which would have risen from that. No easy answers for Ned…
Young Dragon,
Exactly, thank you
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I clearly did NOT say it will stop. LOL
I said it will be less.
Flayed Potatoes,
No im not going to read and compare.
As a show only fan, I don’t see him as dumb at all. He made some decisions that cost him things, but that didn’t make him dumb, it made him loyal and honorable. like ned.
Young Dragon,
Again, exactly
No one said it would cease, just not be the focus. Its the end now. Get over it brian.
Rhaenys Stark,
<3 <3 my thoughts and prayers are with you and your father. sending positive vibes darling
Part of the discussion above was that show Jon has been restricted to the same “Ned like qualities” like loyalty and honor, whereas book Jon, while he has these same qualities, is not as rigid as Ned was about honor. He is more than just “Ned Stark come again”. He was willing to bend his honor if he felt it was necessary, he did things that Ned would never do, he showed more flexibility.
I don’t think show Jon is dumb. Of course he is not. The point was that a lot of the understanding that book Jon has (particularly of the northern people and northern politics) and a lot of the initiative he took as LC is missing from the show.
ghost of winterfell,
Not because of Jon, but simply because Norhern politics don’t matter, they are a background, existing only to help/hinder our ”heroes”, they are not real people. Just background.
I think this is what book-readers don’t understand.
They simply chose to focus on Jon’s other features. He doesn’t advise Stannis of the mountain clans, to give a example, because they don’t want to have Stannis go there, because he needs to die in EP9 and because most likely they don’t exist. Not because Jon doesn’t know about them.
They don’t have Jon arrange marriages with the Wildlings because that doesn’t matter, they show he is brave and smart, by having him go to HH to bring the Wildlings back and settle them in the gift, for that they will help him against the WW.
They don’t have him ”do something Ned wouldn’t” by sending Mances baby with Gilly because he doesn’t exist. Same reason as to why he doesn’t send Aemon away, because Mel shows no interest in him but rather in Jon himself and honestly I think the actors age had a role in this decision, they most likely didn’t want to move him from set to set and all that.
The election as LC is the perfect example of how they view storytelling and not just Jon. In the books it is politicking done by Sam, who tries to make everyone make a choice with their ”brains”.
In the show it is a emotional speech meant to fill the people with confidence in Jon’s character and person. The choice here is made with the ”heart” instead.
Jon was never presented with a situation and he decided to do it differently then he did in the books, he was simply not presented with those problems.
He goes to negotiate with Mance by himself because Allister is hurt and Slynt a coward and he knows they have lost, thus he knows he must try to do something. This is meant to show us Jon making decisions and growing into his leadership role.
In the books this is slowly done by having him do boring stuff for TV medium. Counting supplies, sending random NW guy we don’t know to a random castle we don’t know. It is simple the different medium.
Same as his crowning. In the books it will be 4 chapters long, compromise, behind the scene politicking…etc. In the show it is a single emotional moment, that isn’t meant to analyze Jon’s abilities to handle supplies or his knowladge of Northern politics, but rather a moment that fills people with emotions, to show the Northern lords coming to him that they are ashemed they didn’t help him before.
It is simply the differences of the medium. This is what many book-readers don’t understand.
They didn’t make Jon any less smart, nor did they dimished his leadership capabilities, they simply chose to show and focus on other aspects of Jon’s character, aspects that simply work better on TV.
His chapters in ADWD are meant to show as Jon is ready/capable to handle the nitty-gritty, day to day problems of ruling, in the show they focused on his likeness and compared him to Ned to show that he is worthy of ruling.
Next season, I have little doubt they will not focus to much, if at all on this ”day to day” aspects of ruling, but rather on Jon’s emotions and what they mean.
As I have said it is simply the different medium, not everything that works in the books works on TV and vice versa.
ghost of winterfell,
yeah well I guess if you’ve read the books you would make this comparison.
I was just trying to say, as someone who has no clouded judgement , Jon is not portrayed as dumb or not a good leader in the show.
To me in season 6, he was hesitant to do things as he is slightly changed since his resurrection, understandably. And his decisions at the battle were entirely emotional, not stupid
I have read comments before about Jon regarding this.
I understand he is different in the books, but I feel like the way jon is portrayed in the show is good enough. or maybe I don’t know any better
Mihnea,
Well said.
Dee Stark,
He isn’t different, not at all in my opinion.
The books, especially the last 2, like to show a character growing/changing by having him do 10+ different things. Each grows on the last.
The show simply likes to condense these moments in 2-3 ”big”, emotional ones.
Also they don’t get into the ”day to day” stuff, as I’ve said bur rather each decision is a huge emotional moment and step forward.
To be completely honest though, Martin did it the same way in the first 3 books.
Neither Robert. Ned, Joffrey, Tyrion or Robb is ever shown doing ”day to day” ruling, not on the degree it is done it the last 2 books.
Martin admited himself he got stuck here, especially on Meereen, which the show handled quite nicely in my opinion.
As I have said, it is mostly, the differences of the medium on most storylines, the medium simply requires focus to be on other aspects of the character, especially because unlike Martin they didn’t want to ”slow” the plot down.
And in other cases, such as Cersei, it is the actor who changes the character and others around her. Seriously, in my opinion, it would’ve been insulting to give Lena Cersei’s AFFC material.
Yeah, the change made to have Jon go to HH was a good one, both on character and story.
Because they did not present him with these, we do not get an idea of his capabilities, particularly to rule, as learning to rule was a big part of his arc in Adwd.
I think the show did a wonderful job to show us Jon’s empathy, ability to lead men and inspire them. However, I don’t think we have have seen anything that shows Jon’s understanding of Westeros and particularly the North, which he is now set to rule. We do not know if he is even capable of ruling anything. And going purely by the writers’ comments, which is what this post was about, it seems things will continue to look bleak for him, thanks to his honor (and dishonorable people around him) . Of course the actual S7 could prove me wrong, we are all just making conjecture at this point.
Does having a likeness to Ned mean Jon is worthy of ruling?
Yeah, the emotional scenes with Jon will likely be great to watch. I know that the show comes with it’s own limitations, particularly with time and they will not be able to focus on details as much as the books and yeah, even if they did, a lot of what works in the books would not work on the show. My point was that the meat of his “learning to rule arc” was missing due to these changes,
As before on certain points, agree to disagree 🙂 ?
Sam,
Ha ha ha !
Unfortunately, I have two X chromosomes and barely one accent… I do not qualify to be Aidan Gillen 🙂
But thank you all the same. ^^
Even though I believe it is more a testament to George RR Martin’s talent that even the worst antagonists have enough complex backstories never to be turned into archetypal villains. He understands that everyone, in real life, is a “hero” in their own mind. We all are the protagonists of our own story and George RR Martin gives everyone of his characters this quality.
It is all a matter of framing, I believe. Imagine if, instead of starting at the time of Jon Arryn’s death, the story began 15-20 years earlier, at Riverrun, on the day of the Stark-Baelish duel. Who would we, readers/viewers, side with ? Big, brutish Brandon or plucky, petite Petyr ? Goliath or David ? Very mechanically, most of us would take the underdog’s side. And boom ! After his defeat, the whole story would become some sort of medieval fantasy version of The Count of Monte-Cristo.
And the same logic applies to virtually all the antagonists : pick the day each one of them suffered the most, give them a POV and restart the story clock from then. They’ll instantly become protagonists. Very well done, George ! ^^
Yes and no (as if I could ever give a straight answer) 😉
Had Catelyn known Jon was not the product of adultery, she very probably would have loved him. After all, what’s not to love ? Jon must have been one hell of a cute kid, with his curls and his big brown eyes ! Would she have cared for him as much as Ned cared for his nephew ? It is, of course, hard to speculate but I would say she wouldn’t have been far behind.
Which is why Ned’s own thoughts (brilliant find, by the way 😉 ) about the matter are skewed, based on a “false” premice :
Ned thought, “If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.”
In his comparison, “the life of some child (he doesn’t) know” is, to him, what Jon’s life is to Catelyn. He is right to draw that parallel, given the animosity and resentment Catelyn has developed over the years. However, had such feelings not been given a chance to take roots, had Catelyn known the truth and grown to love Jon, his would not have been a stranger’s life to her. It would have been her nephew’s.
Would she still have chosen her children’s lives over that of Jon, in those circumstances ? Probably. But, just like her husband, I think she would have held out until the last minute.
Now, allow me to make something clear : I do not, in any way, shape or form, exonerate Catelyn for her resentment of Jon. Seven hells, even she does not forgive herself for those ! That’s on her. She held onto her grudge against an innocent, motherless child and she, more than everyone, knows how reprehensible it is. She says so herself.
However, I believe Ned should shoulder at least some of the blame. While I understand his was a difficult choice to make, I still believe he chose poorly. Not only did he hurt and humiliate his wife, the mother of his children, every day by making her believed she was cohabitating with the living, breathing proof of his betrayal, he also, ultimately, made life worse (and, I would argue, less safe) for Jon.
ghost of winterfell
There are many instances on which the Starks are said not to trust / like the Boltons, especially Roose. Aside from ancient rivalry and legends (the Northerners often repeat the story of the Boltons wearing the Starks’ skin after flaying them), there is something about Roose that puts the Starks on high alert.
I cannot remember the exact reference but in one of Jon’s chapters, it is said Ned never could bring himself to trust the Bolton patriarch. Catelyn and Robb feel the same : she repeatedly calls Roose “cold” while her son makes several references to how “scary”, “terrifying”, “cruel” he is.
ghost of winterfell
Well, actually, yes he did. ^^
He was the Warden of the North, the Northern lords’ (over)lord. He ruled the entire North, not just Winterfell. As such, he was perfectly entitled to look into any lord’s business if he so pleased and dictate new codes of conduct if he so chose. Had he come to the conclusion that the Boltons mismanaged their lands and mistreated their people, he could have intervened and overthrown them.
Ned himself was appaled by the Lannisters’ decision to keep Ser Gregor Clegane in their entourage given his crimes against the Elia Martell and her children. He could have followed his instinct and given a closer look at the Boltons’ own misdeeds…
ghost of winterfell
I do not consider him a failed ruler either. I was merely responding to the claim that he was a “great” one which, to me, seems like a rather remarkable overstatement.
Considering what we know of his work as Warden, I would call him an average ruler.
Oh, I have no doubt there are many people who question many of his choices (I am not that original ^^). However, there is a consensus around Ned, that of the last “good man” standing, the ultimate bastion of virtue and honour sacrificed on the altar of a decaying world descending into madness. His death is presented as the story’s “original sin” (even though a rather staggering number of sins were commited long before that 😉 )
After his execution, the Starks themselves develop some sort of cult to his memory : the show made a very good job communicating that (the number of references to Ned from both Robb and Catelyn is downright alarming 🙂 ). Even this season, five years on, Jon and Sansa keep on using him as their gold standard : she makes and he wears a coat similar to Ned’s, they mention him during the “winter is here” scene, the Northern lords namedrop him randomly in the KitN scene…
This adoration is probably why Bran was so dismayed when he discovered the less-than-song-worthy truth of what happened at the Tower of Joy : his superdad survived thanks to someone stabbing another man in the back ?!? Shock, horror ! His virtuous father lied to his entire family for most of his life ?!? Why hath thou forsaken us, Neddy ? 😉
Were the Stark patriarch seen as a normal human being, absolutely none of this would be astonishing. However, considering the hero-worship he is the object of, it may cause some ripples…
Well…
Robert was king. Had he gone after the Lannisters, all the kingdoms would have joined him. Now, the Lions are good, well-armed and remarkably wealthy. But not so that they could have stood up to six kingdoms led by an enraged Robert Baratheon. In such a scenario, the Lannisters would have been toast quicker than you can say… Well, “toast” 😉
SiriuslyStark
Like Lyanna ? (I kid because I love ^^)
SiriuslyStark
And that is the ultimate clincher ! Wonderful ! 🙂
The Starks are our heroes, yes; they are our protagonists, yes; they are by and large pretty nice, decent people, yes. But they are not paragons of virtue, untouched by a cold and craven world’s filth. They are, like all well-crafted characters, quite messed up ^^
Ned could be bullheaded, wishy-washy, willfully ignorant and hypocritical. Catelyn could be vindictive, impulsive, inconsiderate and downright nasty. Robb could be self-important, distant, careless and stubborn. Jon can be whiny, overly hesitant, dismissive of his own privileges and arrogant. Sansa can be selfish, obnoxious, unpleasant and capricious. Arya (even before she became a trained assassin) could be devious, tempestuous, disconnected from reality and spoilt. Bran can be cold, self-serving and ungrateful. And Rickon couldn’t zigzag if his life depended on it (literally 😉 ).
If they weren’t all those things, and more, they would be dull enough to put anyone reading about / watching them into a coma 😉
Rhaenys Stark,
Do not mention it.
I shall keep all my fingers (big and little ^^) crossed for him, you and your family
ghost of winterfell,
Oh don’t worry, I agree to disagree with you. I replied to you, admitedly because I dislike this notion that they dumbed-down Jon, but I wouldn’t have replied to other people!
Just shading my opinion on couple of points.
Yes, but it isn’t his arc in the show. We get a idea trough other events. HH, him deciding to go to Mence alone, him deciding to allow the Wildlings south to help against the WW. As I have said, instead of multiple small moments we get 2-3 ”big” ones.
I don’t believe he will need to, as I said I see the North and it’s people as background, helping or hindering our heroes when necessary not as big factors that need to be considered. I think those qualities are the most important, that is why they focused on them. I do not believe he needs to be shown knowing every Northern houses traits, loyalties…etc. Because I do not believe it will be important.
While in the books it might be portrayed as all of Westeros coming together I believe in the show it will be, all main characters coming together, the smaller houses existing only in the background as numbers.
Yes. Having honor and being able to inspire people around you means that. That is what I believe. ”Worthy” is a subjective notion anyway, you and others might thing he would be worthy if he was good with supplies manning castles with random people, ”Day to day” stuff as I call it.
I simply think other aspects are more important, even more so in this medium, then the ”mundane” stuff he does in the books.
I think he had a ”training arc”, I admit I dislike this phrase, I think most ”training arcs” are simply masked filler. Dany’s Meereen story, in the books, shows this even more clear then Jon’s.
Him going to HH, him getting the Wildlings trough the Wall, him being able to inspire people and unite them, is what I see as traits and capabilities necessary for Jon’s skill in ruling, the other stuff I see as fluff.
I will not speak about what will happen in S7, because honestly I don’t like speculating that much and I try to do it even less this year.
But I doubt we will see Northern politics and Jon taking care of this ”day to day” stuff, I think none of the Northern houses will really matter but rather the story will focus on Jon/Sansa/LF, even Robyn and the Vale existing only as background our main characters can use, I believe Sansa will do this.
Will we have a ”Tormund marries to secure Northern house” story? Sure but it will be comical relief masked as politics or like someone said some time ago, Jon being offered multiple daughters he could marry and he awkardly refuses.
This is the ”polliticking” I expect to see, no more.
The rest I believe will be purely Jon/Sansa relationship, conflict with LF and overarching ”arc”: getting ready for the WW.
ghost of winterfell,
First off, I LOVE both versions of Jon. 🙂 When Sophie said at the Comic Con that she believed Sansa didn’t think Jon had the intellect, the knowledge, and the capability to lead that she had, many of Jon’s fans protested. I may not totally agree with her but when I saw that, I thought she had a reason to say that because it was indeed not established solidly on the show. I’m with the other posters here who are merely wishing that we see an “intelligent” and “not naive” Jon next season, a Jon who is capable to rule as KitN and engage effectively in northern politics.
ACME,
Haha! I actually haven’t given much thought to LF before. I just wanted him to die (preferably in the hands of Sansa). But after reading your thoughts about him, I’m beginning to see him more than just a villain and see his own person. I still don’t like him but I’m starting to understand him more, thanks to you!
Same here… Although I must admit I find Book!Jon almost too “Mary Sue-esque” (not quite, but close). He excels at everything he does… I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next book he also solves the Goldbach’s Conjecture. 😉
Of course I’m being facetious. But maybe this is why many fans are frustrated with Show!Jon: he makes more mistakes (he is more “human” in that way and that’s why I, I dare say, prefer him to his book counterpart). For some reason, people tend to conflate “making mistakes” with “being stupid”. :/
I think that, with all the events that happened since Jon was elected Lord Commander till his crowning as KiTN, he didn’t have much time to actually rule. So maybe we see that in S7 together with him having to navigate Nortern politics and to deal with LF’s web of schemes and intrigues.
Mihnea,
that’s a very good point, book vs tv makes a big difference
thanks for clarifying
I think for me the issue isn’t omitting the administrative aspects of Jon’s ADWD storyline so much as altering the plot points they do choose to adapt to the point of completely mischaracterizing him and negatively influencing the audience’s perception of his capabilities. There are countless adapted scenes in the show in which Jon’s behavior is in fact the polar opposite of what it was in the books, and this is done almost invariably to prop up his supporting cast. I’ll list just a few examples.
Books: Jon orders Sam to go to the Citadel while Sam snivels about how his father would disapprove.
Result: Jon takes his first step in “killing the boy” and we see how the role of Lord Commander is already hardening him. It’s a character-establishing moment.
Show: Sam coerces Jon into sending him to the Citadel while Jon insists that he needs him at Castle Black. The Citadel might try to make Sam swear off women? Let ‘em try!
Result: Sam displays a level of assertiveness and bravado that his book counterpart lacks, at the direct expense of deepening Jon’s character.
Show-Only Misconception: Jon is highly suggestible and somewhat weak-willed.
Books: Jon receives the pink letter, immediately decides to march on Winterfell, and publicly announces his intentions.
Result: Another character-establishing moment. This is Jon’s breaking point after spending the entire book using more passive methods to undermine the Boltons.
Show: Jon receives the pink letter after his stabbing, can’t even bring himself to finish reading it, and requires more arm-twisting from Sansa to convince him to respond to Ramsay’s threats.
Result: In order to establish new!Sansa as a proactive character with more backbone than previously displayed, Jon is drawn as passive and indecisive. A huge moment for him in the books becomes largely about redefining a character who isn’t even present for this event in the books. Another character levels up directly at Jon’s expense.
Show-Only Misconception: This, incidentally, was when the “Jon is weaker than Sansa” bullshit first started making the rounds amongst a number of reviewers and recappers.
Books: Jon convinces hundreds (more, even?) wildlings to join forces with the Night’s Watch in order to bolster their defenses. He doesn’t need anybody else to speak for him. Upon receiving the pink letter, he is able to instantly recruit every last one of them to his war against Ramsay.
Result: Jon is a persuasive leader who exudes authority and displays the boldness and determination necessary to galvanize men and women to his cause.
Show: Jon requires Tormund to close the deal for him with the Wildlings and Davos to close the deal for him with Lyanna Mormont.
Result: Jon is temporarily relegated to a passenger in his own storyline in order to highlight the strengths of his advisors.
Show-Only Misconception: Jon is incapable of directly influencing others or advocating for himself. When faced with any resistance, he will back down until one of his designated spokespeople mercifully step in and save his ass.
A couple more show-only misconceptions on a major upswing after Season 6:
“Jon is not very smart.”
“Jon is not a good strategist.”
“Jon is not a good leader.”
“Jon is naïve and can’t read people.”
“Jon places honor above reason, just like Ned.”
All of these misconceptions are the result of creative decisions to modify Show Jon’s behavior in order to create a contrast intended to benefit his scene partners. This isn’t about omitting scenes like Jon negotiating a bank loan. This is about the fact that the books explicitly established that Jon is a highly effective negotiator, but you can almost be certain that if Jon is ever in a position where he needs to negotiate in Season 7, he’ll require Davos to step in to do it for him.
The problem here is that the depiction of one character’s strengths is frequently turned into a differentiation process, and you can bet that Jon will draw the short end of the stick the majority of the time. In order for Davos to be persuasive, Jon can’t be. For some reason, D&D don’t seem to think that it’s possible to properly service Jon’s supporting characters unless they are shown to be supplementing qualities that he is made to lack. When this requires having Jon do a full 180 from how his book counterpart responds to the exact same scenarios, it’s difficult for me to view that as anything other than a deliberate decision to dumb down a character as a lazy means of giving his scene partners more to do.
elybe,
You can’t compare most of those situations.
Jon send Sam mostly because of Aemon and Mances baby. Sam is only there to take care of him and us a cover up.
Aemons life is not threatened in the show as Mel shows no interest in him and Mances baby doesn’t exist. Thus Jon has no reason to send Sam away.
When they have the speech the timing is also paramount. In the books it is done right at the beginning of Jon’s time as LC while in the show it is done right at the end.
Jon left for HH, where he almost died, he saw the Night’s King, where he saw the full force and brutality of the WW, where for the first time he saw a fraction of their true power. When he comes back, he is rightly so a bit depressed, sad at how many died, and perhaps even a bit scared. So I do not see it ”weak-willed” the fact that in those moments he was hesitant to send away 1 of his 2 remaining friends, remember Glenn and Pyp are dead.
I’m not even going to bother with this. The circumstations are simply to different, him reciving the latter after the assassination and Sansa being there safely completely changes the problem and situation.
This happens in the show as well, but because of the medium we see the loyalty mostly in Tormund, because the viewer would feel nothing if Wildling dude #123 was convinced by Jon, rather they have Tormund.
And as I said, condensing. They combine Jon and Tormund recruitment to save time, no point in doing 2.
Jon plays a big part in recruiting the wildlings in HH but the fact that Tormund is there changes the situation a bit. After all if a respected Wildling leader is there, why not ask his opinion?
I watch the show with 8 unsullied friends every year, I read many unsullied reviews and opinions, I read many comments from unsullied. And I can confidently say, that is book-readers who believe those thing rather then unsullied viewers, extremely few believe what you wrote here.
This many believe yes. Thing is most see it as a good thing.
elybe,
Everything you stated is 100% true, but this isn’t something that they’ve done uniquely to Jon’s story. From the top of my head, they’ve done similar things to Jaime’s, Dany’s and Tyrion’s storylines. From the examples you provided, the most glaring offenses for me are the ones with Sam and Tormund. The other examples seem to be a case of giving Jon Stannis’ TWOW story and bringing Sansa into the mix.
So yes it is unfortunate that showJon is dumbed down but you also cannot allow Davos and Sansa to simply fade into the background. I imagine the show runners try to nullify this by giving Jon big battle sequences; which besides the battle for the wall, don’t occur in the books. Regardless Jon is still very well liked and I’d argue that the majority of people don’t have those show-only misconceptions that you listed.
Off topic. Has anyone read “The Name of the Wind”?
Just bought it and didn’t realize that there was a third book coming for this, but isn’t out yet.
Sam,
My pleasure (and all the credit to George RR Martin) ^^
There hasn’t been much time to see Jon as a ruler, it is absolutely true. But whatever little we witnessed was… Interesting, let’s say ^^
Jon, like Daenerys, is a tremendous leader : young, handsome, charismatic, intelligent, perceptive, innovative and dedicated. He has a knack for gaining people’s sympathy, respect and loyalty. It is the messianic quality he oozes (Tormund’s “he died for us” was about as Christ-like as it gets) and shares with his aunt, his willingness to put himself on the line for what he believes in, that draws all sorts of people to him and makes them pledge allegiance to his cause. He is also often right : his point about the Wildlings, among other things, couldn’t have been more correct.
However, when it comes to ruling, things get rocky, at best.
The worst indictment of his rule as Lord Commander was not the murderous mutiny in and by itself. That was the work of four people, included one who had always hated his guts; as such, it was not representative. The real sign that his rule was, ultimately, a failure was the fact that, once the (mis)deed was done, the rest of the Night’s Watch, for an overwhelming majority, aligned with the mutineers.
That, to me, seems to indicate that his brothers were far from convinced by his decision to let the Free Folk south of the Wall. They let it happen because, well, it was an order but they were not sold on the idea. At all. Including many who had voted for him as Lord Commander. That is one hell of a problem.
And looking back, it was not wholly surprising. Neither Jon nor his surrogates (mainly Sam) made a strong enough case defending his decision’s rationale. They did put forward the idea that Wildlings left to die beyond the Wall would turn into wights, which was good, however they gave their brothers no assurance that, once in Westeros, the Free Folk would not continue to attack villages, commoners and “crows”. For that’s the only experience most Westerosis have of the Wildlings : their murderous raids…
Instead of confronting that knowledge head-on and trying to give guarantees for the Free Folk’s future “good behaviour” and integration into the Northern social patchwork, Jon relied on a true-but-rather-trite argument : “Wildlings are people, some are good, some are bad”. Hardly the selling point of the century. Especially when it comes to overcoming a millenia-long (and not entirely unjustified) prejudice.
Like his aunt, Jon falters when it comes to ruling.
I have already said what I thought of Daenerys’s reign over Meereen so I will spare you another repetition ( 😉 ) and Jon’s turn as ruler was somewhat similar : great ideas, remarkable impulses, massive flaws in the implementation. Hence rebellion.
Now, Jon has one hell of an advantage over Daenerys : contrarily to the Mother of Dragons who departed Meeren seemingly convinced she had done a good job (“I left my ex f*ckbuddy alone in a pyramid to rule over a land on the brink of civil war but it’s ok ’cause now it’s called ‘DragonsRockVille’, twinned with ‘FirePowerCity’ ! YOLO, amirite ! Does anyone want some freedom fries ?”), Jon knows that he failed. That, paradoxically, is very encouraging. Wonderful, Jon ! 🙂
The question is therefore : does he know why he failed ? Does he understand what he could have done differently, what he should avoid doing in the future, to optimise his chances of success ?
Ultimately, his main mistake as ruler was not to pay enough attention to his unoffical advisors’ questions and warnings all around him. There were signs that most of his men were not persuaded by his arguments; Olly himself sought reassurance on a few occasions. Instead of frontally addressing those doubts, his go-to move tended to be a comforting pat on the shoulder accompanied by a heartfelt “trust me”…
“Trust me” is not an argument, no matter how sincere ! Neither are “believe me”, “have faith” or “cross my heart and hope to die”, for that matter. Those are the words of a cult leader to his disciples, not a political ruler to his people; of someone who wants to be believed (in) and obeyed, not challenged and listened to.
Hopefully, the people he now has around him (Davos, Tormund, Sansa, Lyanna) will help him get rid of that habit and become the remarkable leader he has the potential to be. Unless they also start treating him like the bloody messiah and lose all critical sense (please don’t do that ! 😉 )
A Dornish Tyrell
Self-sufficient!Jon is Boring!Jon 😉
If Season 6 and this interview are any indication, what we’re actually going to see are Jon’s advisers navigating Northern politics while Sansa deals with LF’s “web of schemes and intrigues” in order to “protect” her brother, who, for some bullshit reason or other, will be susceptible to LF’s machinations despite being explicitly told by Sansa that he can’t be trusted. Jon will continue to be depicted as “honest and honorable to a fault” despite the fact that the show has already established that he’s capable of deceiving his enemies in order to achieve his ends (Season 3) and playing by his enemy’s rules in order to win (Season 4).
Mihnea,
I agree that the situations have a few key differences, but I’m arguing that the magnitude of the change in Jon’s behavior is excessive, unnecessary, and has had a measurable negative impact on how he’s perceived. For instance, following the events of Hardhome, Jon could have instructed Sam to go to Oldtown to learn more about Valyrian Steel of his own volition without the scene losing anything or Jon coming across as a pushover. Jon also didn’t require Sansa to browbeat him into taking back Winterfell after he received the pink letter. Making changes to the plot doesn’t really justify making changes to your characters, and there are frankly far more skillful ways to cut corners. Finally, I’m glad your unsullied friends don’t share those sentiments, but do you believe that eight people is a solid representative sample of how Jon came across to the wider audience? I know that Jon’s critics are a vocal minority, but some of the misconceptions I listed above actually came from Jon’s fans this year.
Jay Targ,
I never said it was exclusive to Jon; in fact, I specifically pointed out that other characters also get this treatment to some extent in a post further up thread. But at the moment we’re talking about Jon. There’s no way of telling what proportion of the viewers expressed those sentiments without polling everyone, but they were widespread enough and repeated often enough to make an impact. As far as Davos and Sansa fading into the background, is there any particular reason you consider this the immediate consequence of Jon holding his own in a scene? Does any scenario exist in which the three of them can have a dynamic interaction in which one character’s strength doesn’t have to be another’s weakness? If you want a great example of what Jon “failing” in a scene while giving another character a chance to shine looks like when Jon isn’t diminished to achieve that end, watch the scene where he tries to convinced Mance to bend the knee in the Season 5 premiere. It’s not impossible, it just doesn’t happen very often.
Dee Stark,
Of course those statements aren’t true. Do you ever visit other Game of Thrones sites, though? Read reviews or editorials? Watch video recaps? You really won’t have to search very hard.
Jay Targ,
How do you know Jon was given Stannis’s storyline? What would be Jon’s storyline then? Stannis may as well die in early WOW chapters, or retreat back to the Wall and burn Shireen.
I agree! He should invest in a proper spokesperson. 🙂
A great problem with Show!Jon (as well as other Starks: Ned, Sansa, I’m looking at you) is a failure to communicate effectively. Guys, use your words!! 😛
How dare you!?!?! Don’t you know that Jon is great, Jon is good, Jon does what Jon should… 😉
elybe,
I don’t believe Valyrian steel will be that important, honestly. I think the reaction is perfectly normal. He didn’t want to lose his only true friend, not after what he saw.
But after Sam explains a bit as to why he should go Jon quickly sees he’s correct and accepts.
You can’t compare the pink latter. It happened after Jon died, and they clearly portrayed him as depressed, tired and fed up with everything. His reaction there is perfectly reasonable.
As I said, I read numerous reviews, watched plenty of videos and read lots of comments. Very few Unsullied believe the things you enumerated there.
If anything, like I said, it is just book-readers who seem to think that way.
I saw most complaints, not all, but by far the most coming from his book readers fans, there is a difference.
I shall make penance for my blasphemy 😉
Depressed, tired, fed up and just… void.
He came back with the knowledge that there is no after-life. He knows he will never see his father, his brother or his dead friends again. There is no retribution, no reparation, no justice in another world. All there is is this one, for what it is worth. This bitter awareness numbs him for most of the season.
Of course, ironically, it is also what reawakens him eventually.
Under the body pile, there is this moment when he is tempted to give in, to let go. But he remembers that if he does, then it is all over. If he dies, they lose and Sansa dies (she told him so herself). And he, she and Rickon will not meet again in another dimension to spend all eternity together, in peace.
So he crawls his way back to the top.
The writers, director and actor did a pretty good job showing this nothingness devouring him for most of the season until it gave way to a new determination to fight to the bitter end, fuelled by the knowledge that this is it, there is no second chance in another world.
Mihnea,
Valyrian steel may or may not be important in the long run, but from an in-story perspective, it just became one of the most valuable known weapons available to fight the White Walkers. Jon doesn’t know yet that his aunt is on her way with three dragons, so it would have been a plausible enough reason to send Sam away, especially coupled with the fact that he now needs a new Maester.
As far as the book reader versus unsullied question, I’ve seen it come from both camps in decent enough numbers. You’re right that there’s a difference. Nothing short of a complete reading comprehension fail or a blinding anti-character bias can account for a book reader expressing those sentiments (some of the critics this year were downright embarrassing), whereas an unsullied viewer just doesn’t know any better.
We can agree to disagree on the justifications or rationales behind the changes to Jon’s behavior, but I’m curious for your take on this with respect to consistency in the writing for Jon on the show. Actually, anyone can feel free to weigh in on this.
Jon had a mini-arc in Season 4 (Craster’s Keep) that specifically dealt with the question of honor and his ability to understand its complexity and fluidity. This is what Kit Harington had to say about Jon’s growth during a key scene and how it influences his character moving forward:
“When (Jon) was young in the first season, honor was a simple thing. Now — in fact, in this scene — he learns that honor isn’t a simple thing….To eventually get to the right ending, he has to do things he doesn’t want to do….He has to lie to his friends, he has to fight dirty at times. It was never as simple as he thought it was for Ned Stark, his idol.”
Jon, in essence, allows Karl Tanner to school him and then uses what he learns to gain the upper hand when fighting the Magnar of Thenn. He’s willing to win the dishonorable way when necessary.
In your view, does this gel with the question D&D have posed for Jon heading into Season 7, or their suggestion in the interview above that he always plays by the rules? This is a guy who was shown to be willing to learn from his mistakes prior to Season 6, and he has already been betrayed by people whom he trusted. So, assuming that Jon’s ability to form neuronal connections was left intact by the red god and that character growth is actually still a thing for him, would there be any plausible explanation for Jon not putting these lessons into play next season and refusing to adapt his notion of honor as required to square off against dishonorable enemies?
elybe,
Oh oops, I skimmed through the thread so I must’ve missed it lol Anyway, I do agree with you for the most part. Though I don’t think they’re necessarily making other character’s strengths Jon’s weaknesses. The ability to cut deals and talk rationally is more of a defining trait for Davos than it is for Jon; so therefore they have Davos be the one to persuade Lyanna Mormont. That doesn’t make it a weakness for Jon though, IMO. I’m with you when it comes to Sansa, Sam, and Tormund.
Lord Parramandas,
I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to come to that conclusion. At the moment, in my own head cannon, I believe that Stannis will win the Battle of Ice and I don’t think Jon will be resurrected till about halfway into the book, give or take. But hey I could be (and probably am) wrong
elybe,
I agree with what you say here. I think a lot of the reactions in this thread are coming from the fact that the writers here are once again insinuating that Jon is too honorable, hence naive to handle the dishonorable people around him, and considering his growth in the first 5 seasons, this seems like a step back. And the wording used by the writers here makes us worried for his S7 arc.
I don’t know how new this interview actually is and maybe this interview does not really reflect how Jon’s arc will be handled in the next season, but I am not getting my hopes up.
Jay Targ,
Yes, he may win Battle of Ice but not Battle of Winterfell. Stannis is only a secondary character in the books. Not to mention that the battle may happen off-screen because there are no significant POV.
ACME,
You keep reapeating this .
Its not her fuckbuddy she leaves in power but the people …
Just what do you think will happen in the books …there are lots of men army like mother’s men and other such groups that can be left to maintain peace …the show doesn’t have that liberty for example daario is not even belongs tosecond son in the books …he belongs to storm crows..
You bring up the point of listening to advisors and non advisors.
Just where does tyrion comes in all of this decision …are you going to say he is not part of it …so is dany wrong in listening to her hand who by all the fandom claims has more knowledgeable and clever than dany can ever be..
Why no one brings him while blaming this decisions… Its fascinating when something to praise tyrion gets the credit but when something to be blamed its on dany.
you speak about the failure ..
Its important that Jon fails at wall because he needs to learn from it and proceed to winterfell..
Dany has already failed in astopor and yunkai and meereen ..the dany you mentioned one who was convinced she left the place in a good way is actually dany from season 5 who doesn’t know about the incoming threats…
What we saw in this seasons is climax for that civil war..and the slavers bay storyline got an ending …it may be unbelievable for you but it can certainly happen . and having slavers bay fall again back does not bring anything to the story. .
So dany is ahead of admitting from failure and learning from failure in regards to Jon..
elybe,
Mate, you simply can’t compare Jon before/after the revival.
What he learned before hand is irrelevent, everything changes once he realizes there is no after life, everything is different after he comes back. He may have realized that because there is no after life, it is worth it to be honorably in this lie.
Same way you can’t compare some moments the way you tried. You can’t compare him recruiting Wildlings in the book, with him going to Lyanna, his death changes all.
In the books he is at the beginning of his ”rule”, when he still tries to prove himself and ”kill the boy”, after the death everything changes, he is depressed, tired and fed up with everyone and everything.
He just returned from HH, and he spoke with Sam right after that, not 1 day after, not 2 weeks, but right after coming back. This is another huge difference, Jon does not spend 6 months or so as LC but only couple of weeks, they made this decision as not to slow down the plot the way Martin did, and myself think it is the best decision they did, anyway back to my point.
He came back, he lost dozens of men and witnesses the death of thousands, when he returns Aemon, who he looks up to is dead, Allister then threatens him, or at the very least makes his discontent know.
Under this circumstances is it that hard to believe he is a bit reluctant to send away his best friend?
Mihnea,
Not to mention that TV Sam is a stronger character than his book counterpart. Book Sam is pretty much the same person as he was in book 1, who cannot make his own decisions.
Well, it is common knowledge in strategy that if you kill a person – especially in such a manner as Jeoffrey did, you inevitably make a saint out of this person. Which is why – if you’re smart enough – you just don’t do that. Jeoffrey was a monster, but he wasn’t an intelligent one. And Tywin definitely made a huge mistake, as well. Ned, and all the Starks that were killed were killed in an undignified, undeserving manner; not fighting in a battle, but as a result of a scheam or a whim/trick. And that – especially since we liked them from the beginning – was the cherry on the cake of their somewhat ‘sanctification’ – even if that doesn’t come out of thin air, they did have many admirable qualities to qualify as heroes in the first place. 🙂
ACME:
Robert was king. Had he gone after the Lannisters, all the kingdoms would have joined him. Now, the Lions are good, well-armed and remarkably wealthy. But not so that they could have stood up to six kingdoms led by an enraged Robert Baratheon. In such a scenario, the Lannisters would have been toast quicker than you can say… Well, “toast”
Toast!! Well… his little brother was very much into overthrowing him, and he had the Tyrells with him on that. And who knows who else and how many more would turn on Robert. And we will never know what part Ned could have played in that, he may as well had used his influence in order to pacify Robert a bit in time, or influence his view to a more merciful direction. But all that is a fictional scenario, we could debate about it for a long time and we’d both be right and wrong 😉
Like Lyanna ? (I kid because I love ^^)
Be good now! 😛 Comparing Lyanna with Cercei is like comparing a rose with a cactus, or a poison ivy 😀
And that is the ultimate clincher ! Wonderful !
The Starks are our heroes, yes; they are our protagonists, yes; they are by and large pretty nice, decent people, yes. But they are not paragons of virtue, untouched by a cold and craven world’s filth. They are, like all well-crafted characters, quite messed up ^^
If they weren’t all those things, and more, they would be dull enough to put anyone reading about /watching them into a coma
You know I’ve never seen them as perfect or untouched by material world 🙂 What makes them heroes, is exactly that fact – paraphrazing the famous quote – they are in the gutter, like us, but ‘they look at the stars’. Ιf you are to be a hero, you must walk your arc down here, to get touched by a cold and craven world’s filth, to be tempted, to get confused and lost and make a mess; and as sweet Davos said to ‘Go fail again’, which inevitably suggests that you keep fighting to do better next time and you keep fighting for all that is good (even if sometimes that seems like a lost cause) 🙂
And of course if they were perfect, with no flaws and they never made any mistakes not only would they be boring, but also there wouldn’t be anyone able to connect and identify with them, therefore there wouldn’t be a fan base, and I would be in an existential void, known as Siriusly WhoAmI?. 🙂
I shall make penance for my blasphemy
Repent! 😛
The writers, director and actor did a pretty good job showing this nothingness devouring him for most of the season until it gave way to a new determination to fight to the bitter end, fuelled by the knowledge that this is it, there is no second chance in another world.
I couldn’t agree more 🙂
dragonbringer
I agree and disagree. She certainly is doing what she believes is best – I think that no one can argue about her good intentions. I don’t know if Daario was the best choice to leave in charge, not because he was her lover – he got a city to overlook which is definitely more than anyone would hope for in his position and it’s supposed to be a token of appreciation for his services (^^) – Ok with a bit of good riddance as well:D
The problem with this choice – which arises at the same scene, is that we see the fact that Daario loves her, while she doesn’t, and it’s made clear that she doesn’t love him to him and also made clear – to us – that he’s badly hurt. So, leaving him behind triggers a great amount resentment in him, he may feel betrayed, and that makes him a problem in the long run. What if he turns against her? How does a man full of negative feelings properly hold his ‘bad’ ex’s city? Maybe Daario will prove a better man than we think. But if I go with my personal instinct this will come back to haunt Dany somehow.
I agree that Dany has also learned valuable lessons – she’s doing great when she manages to control her fiery first reactions to things, and decide in a sober state. If she keeps that – Tyrion can help her with that, while he’s not infallible he does have more experience and knowledge on the Game – I think she will avoid lots of troubles 🙂
I find that there’s a kind of paraller between Dany and Jon. We have followed them from the start, when they had nothing, they were in the middle of nowhere, practically kids with zero self- awareness or knowledge of the world and we have seen them growing, learning through their experiences and interactions with the world. I think, in a way, in season 6 we have seen them becoming adults. Jon perhaps is one step ahead, because his passing to ‘adulthood’ was more of a harsh, inner -discovery journey, the fact of his death and its experience, acted, I think, as a catalyst to his growth.
On second thought, each one had exactly the kind of experiences that they needed. 🙂
I think we must write to HBO and ask them to hire ACME as Jon’s official spokesperson-darkside advisor; and you can be his personal tinfoil greenseer! 😀 I’ll probably bring the coffee for all and the occasional pop -corn. 😀
WHAT? Not only are you not Aidan, but you’re not Irish, you can’t do accents either and you’re not even a tall, dark, disagreeing, stranger??? Shame! 😛 😀 😀
They are and also their families that stand beside them.
My warmest wishes guys; Hold fast <3
A people of former slaves whose experience of freedom is 12/18-months-old and whom she leaves with an institutional frame that is close to inexistent. The executive, legislative and judiciary branches of the government are not defined; the laws, rules and principles of citizenry have never even been mentioned.
As far as I can see, there is nothing remotely politically viable in the structure she left behind in Meereen and to hope for a Jeffersonian democracy to emerge from the ashes of the former system is a tad too optimistic, in my mind.
dragonbringer
I am certain there are.
Unfortunately in Show!Meereen, Daenerys’s army is comprised overwhelmingly of the Unsullied, the Dothrakis and the dragons… And she leaves Meereen with all of those; the State’s “leviathan” (the incarnation of its raw power and legitimate force in front of whom, were they to face it, all citizens would bow and thanks to whom some sort of unity and cohesion can be reached) goes with her. There is no safety net, be it for military or policing purposes. She leaves the State almost completely bare.
dragonbringer
The main problem is that Daenerys wants to depart Meereen at all. The manner in which she leaves is almost inconsequential, to be honest (unless she gave both the Dothrakis and the Unsullied to Meereen, then there would some sort of shield over the city that could buy it enough time to invent and sustain a decent institutional fabric and a diplomatic frame with which to deal with the other cities of the bay. It would not spell guaranteed success but it would help). Tyrion tries to make limonade out of that lemon but it is, in my humble opinion, not going to work.
Nation-building takes time; it always has. And nation-building in a region hostile to new nations (with new governing principles) emerging is even more time-consuming, complex and arduous. Daenerys leaves after 12/18 months and without any substantially sound institutional implementation.
In my humble and highly disputable opinion, it is too early (or too late) to depart and the political system is too weak to sustain itself in any meaningful or realistic way.
dragonbringer
You may be right; it might be a bit unfair.
However, she is the Queen. And, contrarily to many historical, reluctant monarchs who were thrown into the quagmire of governance by an accident of birth or war and who could therefore, in my opinion, be excused for not learning how to rule or not being particularly good at it, Daenerys chose to become Queen. She fought for and revendicated that status. As a result, my expectations concerning her reign are somewhat heightened.
Tyrion’s greatest accomplishment in Meereen was his attempt to create a mythos around Daenerys while she was away. He understood that “a woman with three dragons” is not a form of government and that brute force (which the dragons are) is not enough of a legitimacy to sustain a political system, especially in the prolonged absence of the still-very-recently-anointed foreign ruler.
He instinctively grasped the people’s need for a narrative that would transcend and legitimise Daenerys beyond her mystical creatures and undoubtedly noble intentions. Hence his decision to insert the Queen into the Lord of Light / Azor Ahai preexisting belief system so as to turn Meereen into an incarnate theocracy.
Is it the best (and most enduring) form of government ? Nope.
Is it the best that could be achieved considering the cards Tyrion had been dealt ? Yep.
That move demonstrated proper political acumen.
However, Tyrion has been shown to grow increasingly attached to Daenerys, to the point of confessing himself to be one of her believers, a disciple. It may erode his critical thinking and that… Well, that’s not good ! ^^
dragonbringer
Yes and no ^^
To be fair (to myself mostly, as per usual 😉 ), I did not write that it was important or even necessary to fail. My point was, when failure occurs, it should be identified as such and learnt from so as to avoid repeating the same errors. That gives a narrative purpose to the failure.
Jon leaves the Wall knowing he has failed. He says so on several occasions. Does he know why he failed ? That remains to be seen. But at least, he knows he did.
Daenerys departs Meereen somewhat afraid but not because she thinks she failed. She is afraid of what she feels she might be becoming (cold, distant, ruthless) however she doesn’t express much doubt about her achievements as a ruler. And the final scene does nothing to ease my concern for it is entirely triumphant ! Everything from the cinematography to the editing to the music (Gods, that tune is magnificent ^^) exudes awe and wonder. So either the writers truly believe she did a good job in Meereen (considering what appears to be their knowledge of history, I find it extremely hard to buy) or it is meant as a contrast : the scene is shot in such a way as to reflect Daenerys’s and her followers’ inner confidence at that moment, even though the reality of what they just accomplished is quite less glorious.
I do sincerely apologise to all Daenerys fans everywhere (and possibly to some Republicans) but watching the Mother of Dragons on a ship, in front of many banners, off the coasts of a land she invaded to free it, all I could think about what this historical nugget.
I do not know whether it was intentional on the writers’ part (probably not, to be fair) but in my mind’s eye, it was glaring. Maybe I am just weird ^^
dragonbringer
Realistically and historically speaking, no. It could not happen.
Nevertheless, you are absolutely correct that whatever the showrunners decide happens does. If they choose to believe that Meereen is, out of nowhere, going to become a beacon of democratic achievement in the middle of Essos, they can just make it be so.
My main problem is that it would not fit the show’s own logic. GreatJon Umber, back in season 1, gave that famous quip : “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we bowed to. And now the dragons are dead. ”
Then the show demonstrated an understanding of the limitations of “government by threat”. And that was the North ! The North who lived for 300 years under Targaryen rule, including two centuries of active dragon presence… And yet, here they were, merely a century after the death of the last known dragon, wondering why they were still obeying a Targaryen principle (the unity of the seven kingdoms) even though the dragons were no longer around to keep them in check.
Let us compare that with Meereen who only had a Targaryen ruler for less than two years… How long should it take for the slavers to overcome their dragon-induced wariness, once they realise Daenerys is not coming back ? My guess would be six months, but it is an estimate.
dragonbringer
I am afraid I disagree. It would hightlight that war or brute force, in and by itself, does not achieve much. It is what comes after that makes or break a paradigm shift. Furthermore, it would embody one of George RR Martin’s central points which he repeats quite often : good intentions are not enough when it comes to governing. (“Of course it’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler and it never has been”; “My reading of history has shown me that simply ‘being a good man’ is not enough. That there are many kings who are good men and yet bad kings. And even good kings sometimes make disasterous decisions. So government is complex, politics is complex.”)
Sevel hells, he even made one of the characters agree with him ! 🙂
ACME,
What happens to former slavers I believe they all are there too..
See this is what I always said but however it seems that only blame and failures are thrown at her while credits are given to tyrion..
This is one thing iam against many stannis fans who seem to give a pass and shifting the blame on mel or selyse..
You are right however how many times do we have to see that..
I means isn’t that what we saw from astopor and yunkai
Or meereen ..
Even in battle of bastards tyrion seem to be speaking against the use of brute force ..
So how many times we have to keep seeing it ..
And this is why I stopped looking onto what show does in depth and just use it as guide to how things will resolve in the books..
In books I believe we will get more depth answer and look into the whole situation more than show did.
SiriuslyStark,
On regards to daario , my main point to you as ACME is..
He has seen what dany can with his own eyes in episode 4 and 6 ..he knows what will be coming if he does something stupid ..and as most do he is also a believer of her now ..
I don’t see him betray dany ever after episode 4 ..
Again this may not be realistic or believable but this is how the show wanted to end the whole arc ..
And I don’t think we are ever going to see him again..he is going to be next gendry in that regards ..gendry will be rowing ..
I will be very happy to be proven right come next season or proven wrong
And I think its time we take the show for what it is …its not like earlier seasons where we got more depth ..now they just go from one plot point to another ..
I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I am not overly surprised by the Northerners’ hero-worship of both Ned and Robb. Their deaths turned them into martyrs of the Northern cause and a jingoistic response was to be expected (Kingindanorf, anyone ? 😉 )
However, the surviving Starks themselves should probably be wiser than that. They knew Ned, Robb and Catelyn as people, not as icons. They knew of their faults and their flaws. Furthermore, by deifying them, Jon and Sansa deprive themselves of the opportunity to learn from their predecessors’ mistakes (because gods don’t make mistakes, of course). It is not enough to kill the boy; the father has to be killed too, symbolically speaking (danke schoen, Sigmund ! ^^)
SiriuslyStark
Renly wanted to overthrow Robert ? I thought he wanted to be his successor, once Joffrey’s legitimacy was challenged. Now, there is no doubt Renly thought his eldest brother incompetent (he was right) but I doubt he would have started an open rebellion against him. Against Stannis or Joffrey, yes sure, but not Robert.
For better or for worse, Bobby Baratheon had legitimacy : he had led and won the insurrection against the previous monarch and very few (if any) were willing to oppose him.
SiriuslyStark
Oh come on ! It was way too tempting to resist ! 😉
You have got to admit that when it comes to creating problems for one’s own family, the Starks are up there, competing with the best of them. ^^
SiriuslyStark
Ha ha ha !
Which is why it is a public service to remind everyone of the Starks most basic humanity by roasting them once in a while. Plus Ned’s hair was daft so he deserves a little jab 😉
SiriuslyStark
I fear poor Jon wouldn’t like any of my policy proposals… ^^
SiriuslyStark
I know, I know, I know… I’m just some French girl with 0.5 accent and a somewhat contrarian spirit. How the mighty have fallen ! 😉
Oh Lord, you are right ! I forgot about those. Another reason to believe the whole region is going to descend into chaos… Yippee ! 😉
dragonbringer
Oh no no no ! None of that double-standard sheep shift ^^
A ruler who has done everything in his/her power to rule is responsible for the whole of his/her reign. Whether it is Stannis, Daenerys or some random bloke who planted his flag into a shitpile and subsequently calls himself “king upon the hill”, they are rulers and they take their responsibilities.
In the case of Tyrion and Daenerys, there is the small caveat that, for the most part, they haven’t really worked together yet. Tyrion was in charge when Daenerys left on her dragon without giving him any instruction. So we can separate his actions from hers at that point and look at his accomplishments as his alone.
However, from her return onwards, their fates are linked and she is at the helm.
dragonbringer
Until the characters themselves truly get it. Might take a while… ^^
dragonbringer
I keep on hoping for a small cameo from him. Maybe he lives a happy, quiet life, with a wife and a couple of kids somewhere and Arya will spot him from afar, witness his normal, ordinary joy; the very type of existence she probably could no longer fit in, no matter how much she tried. It would be suitably bittersweet, me thinks.
Are you calling me Melisandre? Because I’d take that job in a second!! 😛
Now let me fetch a kid to burn. 😉
C’mon, we can share the Greenseer Office. I heard your tinfoil hat has antennas for better reception. 🙂
He’s an intelligent guy, he wouldn’t go for an open fight with our dragon-girl! But given his bitterness, he could support one of her enemies, or use his former intimate relationship with her to harm her.
And even if he has the best intentions as ACME has mentioned there isn’t as far as we know a basic structure on which the city can properly function – it is up to Daario to create it and apply it.
It does seem rather hasty the way Dany departed without establishing a kind of government there, considering Mereen was supposed to be her training playground. While she has learned a lot there indeed, we as audience were left without a clear ‘closure’ of her city reign.
But you’re absolutely right in that there isn’t much time left, and much more important events are to take place. In this regard we can only return to Mereen if it plays a significant role to the game. Otherwise, that was goodbye, farewell and we don’t really care what happens there because ….the WW are coming! 😀
ACME:
However, the surviving Starks themselves should probably be wiser than that. They knew Ned, Robb and Catelyn as people, not as icons. They knew of their faults and their flaws. Furthermore, by deifying them, Jon and Sansa deprive themselves of the opportunity to learn from their predecessors’ mistakes (because gods don’t make mistakes, of course). It is not enough to kill the boy; the father has to be killed too, symbolically speaking (danke schoen, Sigmund ! ^^)
When someone close to you passes away or you part with them for whatever reason, you only keep the best side of them, the best memories, their best qualities. Human nature. It will take a lot of personal experiences and perhaps revelations to get them to see the lost ones for what they really were – human that is 😉
Renly wanted to overthrow Robert ?
The dear blonde Tyrell boy was a great influence on him and he was slowly, but successfully, convincing him to take action even before Robert was injured 😉 Who knows what would have happened? 🙂
You have got to admit that when it comes to creating problems for one’s own family, the Starks are up there, competing with the best of them. ^^
I can’t argue with that 😀
Which is why it is a public service to remind everyone of the Starks most basic humanity by roasting them once in a while. Plus Ned’s hair was daft so he deserves a little jab
Thank you for roasting us 😛 It’s good to be reminded of who we support and why 😉
I know, I know, I know… I’m just some French girl with 0.5 accent and a somewhatcontrarian spirit. How the mighty have fallen !
LOL, yes but with French finesse! And I’m only some Greek girl with a rather disastrous accent and an extended frenchGreek vocabulary – which I note I have been exercising frequently while watching the show 😉 Now you’ve fallen with company 😛
LOL watch out Carice!!! 😀
Oh, thank you! <3 I usually work behind the scenes – my antennas are too shy 😀 But I'm definitely in for supporting the Greenseer Office and the ….(wait for it, raise your hands, OK let's go…. ) King.in.the.North!!! 😀
I won’t get into the Sam scenario again since, as I already mentioned, we’re not going to agree about your premise that alterations to plot points and timelines justify changes in characterization. Jon’s the same character no matter what order things happen to him in. His behavior can vary according to the situation and his mindset, but it still has to be in-character and reflect some sort of growth or progression that extends naturally and logically from what we have seen before.
And no, his death doesn’t change everything. He’s dealing with an existential crisis and reevaluating what it means to live in this world, but that doesn’t rewrite everything he was before. Development is cumulative and human beings are ever-evolving. Big events are pivot points, not reset buttons. That’s not how storytelling works at all. Everything is relevant, and you absolutely do not erase several seasons’ worth of character development because of a traumatic incident.
This is a television show with a narrative to follow and a limited time span in which to do it. Everything you choose to include matters, and you never waste your audience’s time with pointless developments. This “death ex machina” line of reasoning is essentially doing back flips to defend inconsistent writing and pulling rationalizations out of thin air in order to reconcile blatant contradictions in Jon’s character arc.
I respect that we each have our separate viewpoints, so at this point just call it a draw. You won’t convince me that the creative choices for Jon’s character are justified or consistent any more than I’ll convince you that they aren’t. I enjoy watching Jon on the show because of his humanity, the depth and presence that Kit adds to the character, and his chemistry with other cast members. I also think that D&D have a lot of strengths as writers, particularly with intimate or atmospheric moments. Pacing and characterization is where they take most of their short cuts, and when those short cuts end up shortchanging a character, I’ll call it as I see it. You, of course, are welcome to disagree.
elybe,
Yeah let’s just agree to disagree.
Enjoyed the debate though. Nice to see you can find people you disagree with but you can still be friendly about it!
Mihnea,
Totally agree. If it’s not fun and amicable, why bother? I think a lot of people forget that fandom is actually meant to be enjoyable, peaks and valleys and all.
elybe,
I’m not a book reader but if I were, going off of the things you pointed out, I would see this the same way you do.
Sam,
So you don’t agree with her, but you see her reasons for saying it? I’m confused lol. I also don’t get the whole “Jon is sooo naive” thing that’s been going around. Granted, maybe he is a bit, a lot of people are, but it’s become this blown up thing as if he’s an idiot or something.
ygritte,
I take it to mean that “the good guys win in the end” but that an individual good guy might not win, might get sacrificed. Sort of like William Wallace in Braveheart. I honestly got worried when D&D ask rhetorically whether Jon being an honorable man can triumph over dishonorable enemies. Because that was Ned Stark to a T. And Ned was also popular. He was well regarded. So now, I’m worried.
I may be talking heresy here, but I don’t think Dany is the Saviour of the World at all. I have very mixed feelings about her. it will be interesting to see how she does once she lands in Westeros.
As for Theon, oddly enough, I think he may survive. If not, then he is going to do something really heroic and go out in a blaze of glory. With Dany’s help they will defeat Euron. That’s going to happen early in Season 7 I bet.
I can see Sansa appearing to support Littlefinger for a while, but I can also see her being the instrument of his ruin. I see a possible scenario where Sansa dies as she brings down Littlefinger, to save Jon. That could happen by the end of Season 7. What I am really excited about is the possibility of Bran, Jon & Sansa reuniting along with Arya. I believe that probably will happen in Season 7. Maybe they end with Arya finding her way home.
Now. Some of my favorites: Jaime, Bron, Brienne & Podrick. And let’s not forget Samwell. I think he will play a key role along with Bran Stark if getting everyone, Jon & Dany included, to defeat the White Walkers.
Shadow Shifter,
Dany lost Drogo, her unborn child, and can no longer bear children. Those seem like pretty significant losses to me. Albeit other characters have lost a lot more, but she has suffered her losses as well.
We don’t know this to be true. We know only that Mirri Maz Duur predicted that it would be so. MMD may just have been lashing out at Dany by that point. It seems pretty clear during Dany’s hallucinatory wanderings toward the end of ADwD that she is having a miscarriage. If she can still conceive, perhaps she can still bring a baby to term.
If there’s one thing that we should all have learned from GRRM by now, it’s not to take hearsay, prophecy or even the Maesters’ version of history as unvarnished truth.