Game of Thrones is due to resume filming in a couple weeks, and in a new interview with Variety, Sophie Turner confirms that she’s just received the scripts for season 7. Speaking to a reporter at Variety‘s Power of Young Hollywood event, the actress teases her character’s future.
“I actually don’t know because of the way last season left off. There are so many options,” she says. “She could run with Littlefinger and become a villain and sadistic. Or she could also team up with her brother Jon.”
In addition to the script news, Turner revealed how she’d like to see a Sansa death scene play out, should it ever happen on the show.
“A long, slow episode-lasting death, where it’s just one long scene of my death and no one else,” she tells Variety, joking. “And it’s going to be the last episode of the last season.”
Can’t blame her for wanting to stick around for the long haul!
Turner discusses her feelings about the end of the show more in depth with Variety, so check out the full story there.
Hodor!
I feel as if it would be a little cheesy to have Sansa turn villain.
Hold the Door
Here’s to hoping they have her playing a con on LF. I’d love to see the look on his face when he realizes she’s used his desire for her name and pretended to be jealous of Jon as a means to trap him with no way out. We deserve another smart and strong female lead after the way the mishandled Dorne.
She cannot die! She and Tyrion must fulfill their marriage at the end. 😛 They would deserve each other. Tyrion was the only who treated her nicely in King’s Landing and he totally deserves a beautiful, noble, smart, nice girl who (now) understands the game. So go Tyrion+Sansa! <3
Cheese only if it’s done that way.
Aryamad,
hahaha
I agree
she wont though, I think shes going to fall for LFs manipulation about Jon, but turn on LF at the end.
That would be sweet. It’s time for LF to go away.
Ron P,
Agreed.
Whelp, guess I’ll stick to this thread!!
I really hope that the entire plot doesn’t leak this year… *fingers crossed*
BTW, Sue, thanks for adding that Sophie was joking in that second quote. Because you know how many people here would have jumped all over that snippet in one way or another. *head shakes* Some people have no sense of humor whatsoever…
r-hard,
In truth doubt she’ll ever marry anyone and likely if survive become LF or sort of manipulative person. Tyrion will fall for Daeny. Finale set it up his attraction when he mentioned Daario won’t be last person loving her.
Sansa has to die surrounded by her loved ones: lemon cake.
Lol. I like you already. ? Sansa x Tyrion, ftw!!!!! ?
Anywho. Now that she has the scripts…I’ll start paying attention to what she says. Kid always gives up the goose eventually. That she’s already changing her tune probably means something (i.e. “team up with her brother Jon.” In another interview (not sure if it was before of after she got the scripts) she said they neither her nor Jon could rule individually, so they should rule together as “King and Queen in the North”). In any event, NOW is the time to start paying attention to what she says/speculates.
Ravyn,
LOL! That would be a fitting death! 😀
RosanaZugey,
I was saying the same thing in another thread, we should now start paying attention to her interviews! In an interview with ET, she was talking about the effect that Jon’s parentage reveal could have on their relationship, an interesting thing she said was that Jon was basically a Targaryen and not a Stark.
Geralt of Rivia,
Not at all. Tyrion is too smart for that. He’s her Hand already.
r-hard,
Tyrion was/is never smart in the matters of the heart.
ghost of winterfell,
Even now take it with a grain of salt lol.The girls love to troll.But yeah I saw that too.Interesting I guess it will play a role next season.Not that I wasn’t expecting it too but still
What I found interesting is in another interview she did, she first also referenced receiving the season 7 scripts, and when asked about how Jon/Sansa relationship may change based on his parentage info, she said it will be interesting, “Especially now her knowing that he’s not a Stark.”
That exact quote is the part I found interesting because it is a subtle change in the language she has been using all summer. Her answer before we know she got the season 7 scripts was always, their relationship could change “when she finds out he’s not a Stark”. Now it is it could change with “now her knowing that he’s not a Stark.” Meaning, perhaps it’s a bit of a slip up and this will become common knowledge for the character in season 7?
I admit I could be reading into that too much. But I do think it is fair to point out the way she has changed the wording of her answer. A change that by the way, has only occurred after she told us she’s seen the season 7 scripts.
A Dornish Tyrell,
But now he will be. The situation is nothing like his relationship with Shae. And Tysha wasn’t a whore.
RosanaZugey,
i agree, I got the same feeling from her comment in the video when she says “she could also team up with her brother Jon.” stems from something she read in her script. YAYYYYY
BUT that will only come after a little bit of heat, tension, doubting Jon, etc etc
orange,
where was this said??
Dee Stark,
Here you go Dee!
Jenny,
Yeah, I know, I am just speculating for fun 🙂 . Mainly because I would still consider Jon to be a Stark inspite of the fact that he is Lyanna’s son, it’s interesting that Sophie thinks Sansa would consider him as “not a Stark”.
r-hard,
He could fall for her and would you blame him? Sansa seems to be focused on gaining power and be relevant like a player. Not to marry and not Tyrion of all people. George wantd SanSan or talked about it. She dreams about him in the books. If show and books ends the same it might be this but Sansa seems to be concentrated about something else than marriage.
Speaking of marriages. Anyone here thinks that Daeny will take Jaime as a husband? I mean YMBQ was supposed to be take everything from Cersei and that includes power and Jaime. Things Cersei holds dear. Everyone expects Jon to be her husband but this one would interesting.
orange,
He’s half Stark and half Targaryen. He’s not full Targaryen by name or blood unless they were married which is questionable.
Jenny,
ohhhhh myyyyyy
I love this girl. I wish she was my friend! haahha
ghost of winterfell,
Yeah me too the first thing I thought was exuse me he is still Stark he is more Stark than anybody lol and wasn’t she parading her Tully heritage this season?But I get it from their pov the male parentage matters way more and in her eyes and their society you aren’t entitled to anything from your mom’s side until the people from the male side are gone.Oh god Jon is gonna be so fucked up when he learns of it.Like everything you knew about your life is a lie and your parents are two dead people you effectively know nothing about
carbonUnit,
His desire for her “name,” huh? …. So thats what the kids are calling it these days
Jenny,
Yup, what’s going to be harder for him to take, that his father raped his mother (as far as he knows) or that this caused the death of thousands of people.
Ugh, Jon is just as much a Stark as Sansa, Bran, and Arya. He’s got just as much Stark blood in his veins as they do. Just because he shot out of Lyanna’s vag and not Ned’s wiener doesn’t make him any less of a Stark. *rant over*
I do think that now that Sophie has the script, her comments will be scrutinized like never before because she does tend to let things slip. Last year she let it be known she was relieved to find out from her script that she made it out of S6 alive. LOL.
RosanaZugey,
I do not think Sophie Turner’s interpretation changed that much. She mentioned the KitN/QitN team-up at Comic Con, if memory serves right (which it sometimes does not ^^)
To be fair, she never speculated Sansa would push Jon down the stairs or stab him in the eye with a rusted fork. She simply continued on the point the writers (and Kit Harington and pretty much everyone) made that there was a potential for conflict between Jon and Sansa… 🙂
ghost of winterfell,
I sincerely hope Jon will be spared the belief he is the product of rape. That’s unnecessarily ugly. The truth is, ultimately, more than enough : Ned lied to him his whole life, his father was at best a dubious character, his mother was Season 1 Sansa, his paternal grandfather was a crazy person who murdered both his maternal grandfather and uncle and, last but not least, an all-out war decimated tens of thousands because Lyanna could not be bothered to leave her family a note before she fled (“Robert sucks. I prefer Rhaegar. He can play the intro of “Stairway to Heaven” on the lute. Don’t come looking for me. I am fine. Lots of love, Lyanna”)…
There really is no need for poor Jon to be made to believe he was conceived through rape on top of that. With a bit of luck, Bran will find out more about what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna so Jon does not have to rely too much on myths.
As for Jon being/not being a Stark, well he really isn’t.
Aside from the fact that Westeros gives precedent to patrilinear filiation over any other, there are the specifics of this situation, namely that the Targaryens and the Starks were/are not allies. Sansa could somewhat legitimately ask the Tully forces to help the Starks because there was a formal alliance between the two families, embodied by Ned and Catelyn’s marriage.
Rhaegar and Lyanna’s union, whether it was formalised or not, was not the result of a bond between their respective clans. Nor did it lead to one. If anything, it made whatever peaceful cooperation existed between the Direwolves and the Dragons disappear in a spectacular fashion.
From both a technical standpoint and a symbolic one, Jon has no legitimate claim to the Stark identity. Unless a legitimate Stark gives him one, of course, by way of a will (hello Robb ! ^^) or some kind of formal proclamation / adoption. Come on Stark siblings, assemble ! 😉
A Dornish Tyrell,
Ah Tyrion ! Such a sentimental man… Both his most touching feature and his greatest weakness.
I think the hardest thing for him to take would be that Ned wasn’t his father. If he learns the truth, it will be bittersweet for him, I guess – finally, he gets to know who his mother was but then the father he loved and adored turns out to be not his real father.
ACME,
I disagree. Jon is a Stark because Lyanna Stark was procreated by Rickard and Lyarra Stark, same as Ned Stark. Ned and Lyanna are full siblings and thus their children all have the same amount of Starkiness. Ned himself tells him that he’s Stark, while not bearing his name he has his blood. Now he may not be in line to inherit Ned’s title or castle but he didn’t. He was proclaimed King in the North and wasn’t granted Winterfell, Ned was never King.
So she doesn’t know her characters future, but she has her script? Ok.
ACME,
Great way to put it! This has always bothered me. Also, when the Mad King held her eldest brother captive, why didn’t she send a raven to her father to inform him that she’s not been abducted but actually eloped with Rhaegar? Granted, maybe she didn’t know about it. But when the rebellion started (after her father and brother were executed), why didn’t she try to contact Ned? This makes me think there’s more to Lyanna’s story. Maybe there’s going to be a twist that we have not anticipated.
ACME,
Yeah, I know Jon would technically not be a Stark, but his siblings might have felt differently! Besides, if Sansa herself will see Jon as not a Stark, what happens to his position as king in the north.
Sam,
Yeah, I think there will be some plausible explanation as to why Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed hidden in the midst of a war raged for their sake.
ACME,
This is why I speculate that LF will go at great lengths to dig up info on Jon’s parentage. It will present a way for him/Sansa to discredit Jon. Add to that the fact that Jon’s father is Rhaegar, the “one who abducted and raped Lady Lyanna”. That “act” then led to the deaths of the lord of WF (Rickard) and the heir to WF (Brandon). LF/Sansa(?) could argue with the Northern lords that Jon is “not a Stark” after all and therefore not deserving to be the KitN.
If were lucky she´ll start boozing soon and post it all on 4chan
I’m affraid that’s a possibility: LF playing the “abduction/rape” card to discredit Jon in the eyes of the Northern Lords. He is not only the son of the hated Rhaegar, the one responsible for bleeding the whole country, but also an abomination: a bastard product of rape… Someone like that couldn’t possibly be fit to be King in the North.
Poor Jon, he still has to suffer more humiliations. 🙁
That’s an interesting idea. I still think that if Jaime will end up with someone, it will be Brienne. 🙂 I’m one of those who don’t think Jon and Dany will end up together. One of them could end up dying/sacrificing his/her life in the end. Also, with only 13 episodes left, there isn’t time to build some romance between these two, is there?
Sansa will betray LF. Her “conflict” with Jon is just plot on D&D’s part to hide that.
I don’t want her to die ( unless it really happens in the last episode of the last season). As for her future, I guess it’s a combination of both. She will probably be on LF’s side at the beginning, but will somehow be involved in his downfall. After the actors recieve the script, their “hints” are often misleading or at least not accurate. We will see…
And I really hope the plot doesn’t leak. I will try to stay away from serious filming spoilers but I cannot completely distance myself from the site. It would diminish my hype.
Sansa’s death would def. have to be epic (if they have her die). I still don’t think that both her and Littlefinger will survive the next season. One will destroy the other.
I can’t believe there are only 15 episodes left, so much needs to be done! Ppl are gonna die left and right!
Sam,
Yeah there is time there won’t be so many storylines they can focus on the central characters plus it will be like a game of thrones romance they don’t really need that many scenes.I think it will happen in some way but that doesn’t mean they will have a happy ending or end up together.Let’s be real the chances of them both surviving are like 5%
Oh, that may be a slip! 🙂 I just watched the video. It looks like: 1) Sansa would know about Jon’s parentage next season and 2) Jon’s “not being a Stark” could be a plot point. I agree with Sophie – it’s going to be interesting. 🙂
This absolutely does NOT make any sort of sense to me. There are large details of this story we are missing.
I sincerely hope so. If there is no more story than “R + L fell in love… so romantic…. so what if countless people died, and the realm was devastated by war”, then Jon’s parents both come across as completely clueless, horribly selfish people who did everyone a favor by dying young. I hope there’s more, much more to the story.
Clueless and self-serving people, maybe.
Horrible? Why? It’s not like they elope together with the firm purpose of initiating a war!
Jack Bauer 24,
What?
She doesn’t know because she didn’t know how to say it without spoiling.
Youre such a sophie hater it oozes all over your comments lol
Sam,
Jaime will die. They foreshadowed his death.
”How do you want to go?” – Bronn
”In the arms of the woman i love.” – Jaime
Jaime will most likely die in Cersei’s arms. And Tyrion will kill Cersei, because he is the ”valonqar”. It’s a High Valyrian word. It’s a hint for Tyrion’s true identity. That’s why GRRM choose this word for the ”little brother”. Only this word is valyrian in Cersei’s prophecy.
Sam,
If I had to venture a guess, I would say that Littlefinger already knows or at least suspects. His noncommittal silence to Sansa’s recitation of the myth surrounding Lyanna’s disappearance, back in the Winterfell crypts, was quite interesting in and by itself.
Let’s face it : it is not that tough a mystery to solve.
Ned came back from the war with a recently born baby he claimed to be his (even though everyone asserts that cheating is not in his nature) and the body of his recently deceased sister who everyone knows had sex, whether consensual or not, and whose cause of death is, I suppose, not explained… Anyone who would spend even just five minutes thinking about it would have suspicions (many book readers guessed it back in 1996 ^^)
Now I can understand why no one in the Seven Kingdoms at large would spend those five minutes on the topic because, overall, nobody quite cared that much about Ned’s sentimental life. I can also accept that Catelyn would be simply too shell-shocked and hurt to investigate any further.
But Littlefinger ? When he heard that Ned had brought back a bastard son, he may have thought it spelled trouble for his beloved Catelyn’s marriage (and possibly opportunity for himself). He must have given it at least some consideration. I wouldn’t be surprised if he put 2 and 2 together. He might not have proof but doubts… I bet he has a few. 😉
And, as Dornish Tyrell stated, it is one hell of a weapon. The North has no love for the Targaryens whatsoever which, considering the Mad King’s actions, is hardly surprising.
Furthermore, the title of KitN is fundamentally associated with the Starks : they invented it and are the only family ever to have carried it. Like the Mormonts say : “Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark“. Now, if Jon had a “real” family name instead of a bastard substitute, it would be Targaryen, not Stark. That may cause legitimacy problems, as ghost of winterfell alluded to…
A Dornish Tyrell,
I agree wholeheartedly.
Lyanna and Rhaegar were far from perfect (especially Rhaegar, I would argue…) but they were not monsters. To the best of our understanding, Lyanna was a young, innocent girl who had led a very sheltered life and received a beautiful present from a handsome prince. And she did what many girls before and after her did, namely something very foolish, with very tragic consequences. Lyanna and Sansa have a lot in common, don’t they ? 😉
Also, it is something of a tradition for Starks to form misguided dalliances that, ultimately, penalise their family. Sansa and Joffrey, Lyanna and Rhaegar, Robb and Talisa… Ned and Robert even ! Starks are famous for not always thinking things through. They are an impulsive, sentimental bunch.
Jack Bauer 24,
The word coy ring a bell to you? How would you like these actors to answer these impossible to answer questions?
Not only that, but they both also “betrayed” their “Starkness” in a way: Sansa by siding with Jeoffrey against Arya (although I’d debate this point) and Lyanna by breaking the bethrotal her father had arranged by eloping with Rhaegar. In both cases, these two ladies opposed their family. 🙂
Well, Littlefinger said it himself (S1E3):
😉
ACME,
They would have to be maried for him to have Targaryen. So far Jon will be Snow as he’s a bastard. Don’t think he cares if he’s got Targaryen surname or Stark one. There are other things to do than argue whether this or that name. Also he could legitimize himself if he ants but that’s not Jon. Targaryen surname has no emotional attachement to him so don’t think he would do it unless he’s got to sit on the Irone Throne but don’t think that should be his destiny. That is a White Walkers and their army.
r-hard,
Don’t think hes talking about Cersei but Brienne. Jaime will likely kill Cersei and thus mirroring his murder of Aerys. Considering the way he looked at her and what she’s doing or will do. This is why Tyrion might convince Daeny to spare him.
Sam,
If Daeny takes Jame as a husband. Not sure Jon would be ok with another guy beside her or that it would create sort of confussion with who will be the heir. Jon’s kids or his. Also Daeny is child of three in the books and thus far she married two times. Also depends on if Jon is still King in the North because as people said here. Northerners might not view his parentage as something good and being son of Rhaegar who is considered a rapist and kindapper in the North. Jon in the end might not be best fit for her since he’ll might not have power of being a King but then has to lead North so perhaps Sansa Queen and Jon general.
Absolutely !
The irony being, of course, that Sansa’s “betrayal” is, to many, an unforgivable sin while Lyanna’s own lapse in “Starkness” is generally ignored. If anything, Jon’s mother is even considered to be the epitome of “real Stark” (whatever that may mean… ^^).
Admittedly, Lyanna had very Stark features, from the dark hair to the grey eyes, whereas her niece has all the Tully trademarks (auburn hair, blue eyes) but when it comes to behaviour, they are very evenly matched.
He would know; he has the scar to prove it ^^
Maybe House Stark should change its words : “Quick tempers, slow minds” has a somewhat nice ring to it. Not quite as ominous as “Winter is Coming” but interesting all the same 😉
Brilliant!!! 😀
I forgot to add, Variety put the full video of Sophie’s interview on YouTube, not just the clip about Donald Trump that’s included in the article itself.
Geralt of Rivia,
The directors try to fuck everyone’s mind. Cersei did in episode 10 what Jaime ”suggested” her in the first episode.
”We’re the only ones who matter, and everything they’ve taken from us we’re going to take back and MORE.”
Sorry people all roads lead to Jonsa
Of course, not. But if events really transpire as all the R/L romantics would have it unfold, then the horribleness comes from the fact that they did not come forward when was HAD broken loose in the fairly long time between elopement and birth! When Lyanna’s father and brother had been killed; when her other brother and betrothed were in war, when Rhaegar’s wife and young children were left at KL with a King who, who by all accounts, was not fond of his Dornish daughter-in-law and grandchildren and thought Rhaegar was plotting against him. At least Rhaegar could have moved them to Dorne.
Many, many things don’t add up for me about Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s “elopement”. I hope there’s a better explanation; otherwise, if I were Jon, I would feel quite badly about my heritage. I fully understand that many posters here don’t share my views about R+L’s great “love” story. 😉
Kay,
I do not know how much of a “love” story R+L is supposed to be… From what we can gather, they barely knew each other when they eloped and did not spend that much time together before Rhaegar joined his father’s army to fight… His “beloved’s” family. So it is unlikely their relationship was built on a keen sense of partnership, deep love and mutual understanding 😉
It is entirely possible theirs was the union of a young woman’s infatuation and a handsome prince’s… Desire to fulfill a prophecy ?
In regards to their seeming indifference to the country’s descent into chaotic madness over their affair, it is still up in the air.
Frankly, I do not think it would be so out of character for Rhaegar to have displayed such callousness : after all, he was the man who, very publicly and with no remorse, humiliated his wife, the mother of his children, when he chose Lyanna as his Queen of Love and Beauty. Not quite the delightful prince Barristan Selmy described !
As for Lyanna, well… Perhaps she was just a young girl with a massive crush and a head full of songs and tales about princesses and love at first sight. So she might have thrown caution to the wind, forgotten about her family whom she did not warn about her decision and, by the time she realised the consequences of her careless actions, it was too late : her father and brother were dead and she was pregnant.
At the very least, Jon may take comfort in the knowledge that, regardless of their past actions, his parents did everything they could to keep him safe : Rhaegar gave his best men the task to watch over his child-to-be and Lyanna used her last breath to ensure her son would be protected from Robert’s wrath.
A Dornish Tyrell,
😉
Sean C.,
Thank you for the link ! Sophie Turner genuinely seems like a charming young woman ^^
Aryamad,
Yeah, same. If that were to happen, I wouldn’t be too happy lol.
you sansa fans ship her with every male who show kindness to her…first sansan than tyrion and now jonsa i am hating but its getting quite ridiculous. and actually all road lead to jon and dany the contrast and parralel in their storyline (and tyrion) ettract each other…there is obviously a link between those 3 that cannot be denied..dany is queen tyrion is the hand and deep in our mind it is pretty clear that the last piece lead to jon…red herring or not
* i am NOT hating sorry my bad
lord of blogfell,
If you think this will lead to Dany Queen, Tyrion Hand and Jon King. That would be pretty predictable and cheesy.
It seems to lead to Jon and Dany but let’s hope they wouldn’t thrown there high school romance or something. Looks like political purpose is the one it will be set up for. Even political alliance is a bit of fishy since we don’t know how it will unfold in the North, how his parentage will play into the picture. North is not exactly strong opponent for her so she would easily conquer them. LIke Aegon did with Torhen Stark who knelt before him.
r-hard,
Everybody expects Jaime to die with Cersei at this point, which makes it doubtful. Judging by the expression on his face when he saw her sit on the Iron Throne, he’s done with her. My money is on the Valonqar coming out of left field and being someone like Euron. The ‘little brother’ mentioned in the prophecy doesn’t necessarily have to be related to her.
The mention of Casterly Rock by Daario in the final ep last season made me think that not only are we going to see it, but that Jaime is finally going to become the man Tywin wanted him to become by accepting his role as Lord Lannister and securing the family legacy. He was let loose from the Kingsguard for a reason, and it just so happens he’s free to marry now. Being offered a marriage proposal by Dany seems like a possibility, but seen as she still can’t have children (at least in the show), it doesn’t seem likely that’s going to come to fruition if he intends to keep his family name alive. There is however a certain Maid of Tarth who’s available, and who will become The Evenstar when her Father dies. She may even become a Queen in her own right if Dany is convinced to give Tarth independence in the same way she agreed to that for Pyke with Yara, which throws up all sorts of interesting possibilities…
lord of blogfell,
The problem with Jon and Dany is that Dany outshines Jon. She is just way more epic than him. Right now, I like Jon more than Dany, and I feel pairing them up will diminish one of them (most likely Jon).
A key issue is going to be evidence of Jon’s parentage. Jon and Sansa would believe Bran but then what?
Isn’t it going to take more than that?
Does it really work for Littlefinger exposing/exploiting the Jon Targ line? Jon could shore up his Stark claim by marrying his cousin, Sansa. Simple. Jon suddenly becomes an even bigger player and an attractive marriage target with this news. Why would Sansa have any use for Littlefinger?
carbonUnit,
That is a great suggestion!
Dee Stark,
Maybe she’ll make LF THINK she’s fallen for his shenanigans but then turn on him to help Jon or for the greater good or whatever. That would be acceptable to me! 🙂
Totally agree. If Littlefinger is going to use Jon’s parentage against him and it looks like the Northern lords are buying it, why would Jon marry Dany, the most Targy of Targs to ever Targ, to prove his loyalty to House Stark and the North?!
It’s gotta be a Stark cousin, and even better – a “cousin” who Littlefinger wants for his own. muwahaha Jonsa!!
Meg,
Yes surely Sansa will work it out when she finds out.
I’ve said since season 6 episode 10 that LF will look into Jon’s parentage and try to use that against him to undermine his position in the North. Sansa will most likely work with LF and she’ll have to eventually pick a side. Enter kingmaker Bran. I still think Jon will be KITN regardless.
For now I’m sticking with this.
Definitely so, Sam 🙂
We really know so little about the circumstances under which this took place to reach absolute conslusions. I’m not a book reader, so all I know is what I have seen on the show and what I have read at the public GoT- awoiaf wiki.
Rhaegar’s relationship to his wife was (as GRRM has mentioned) ‘complex‘.
We know that he wasn’t the type of man that fools around with other women. So if he eloped with Lyanna, while well aware of the consequences of that action, as he was an intelligent guy – there must have been a very good and urgent reason to do so. (I would personally rule out the kidnapption possibility, at least by Rhaegar, unless to protect her from someone).
And this can’t be just an infatuation: were it one, he would have had his way with Lyanna, and go back to his wife – though if he was the type of getting infatuated, he would have had numerous infatuations until then, so it really doesn’t add up; he wouldn’t stand by her, using his best men to protect her to the end, he wouldn’t die with her name on his lips, and neither would he have taken this to the extreme of ‘causing a war’ (the country was already to the point of civil war, as stated by Pycelle to Citadel so rather allowing this to become the excuse for a war).
We also know Lyanna was a very dynamic young woman, with her own mind about things: she wasn’t the easily flattered and dreaming to be a Queen, type, like teen-Sansa: on the contrary time and again it has been declared how much Arya resembles Lyanna.
I am sure that there’s more to this not only on Rhaegar’s feelings for Lyanna – people can get very close in very little time under certain circumstances – (take Jon and Ygritte, Tyrion and Shae, Dany and Drogo – if we accept they did love each other, why should we doubt that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other too? ) – but also due to the political circumstances at that time and the involvement of 3rd parties with their personal/family interests to all this mess. Lyanna and Rhaegar, I believe, were used as the excuse for this ‘fait accompli’ war.
Let’s not forget that the main reason Rhaegar went to the Harrenhal tournament was to
(I wasn’t sure if was a spoiler or not but… just in case ) So, he did care about the kingdom and furthermore he did care about the future of his kingdom, and was trying to take measures
And there’s no evidence that Lyanna didn’t care about her family – if it were so, Nedd wouldn’t behave the way he did towards her and especially to Jon after he found out the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar’s relationship.
Lastly, we know very little about his wife Elia: she was Dornish; she was of fragile nature, nearly died while giving birth and she was prohibited of having more children. Their marriage considered a harmonious (but not romantic) one to the eyes of others.And the relationship was ‘complex’. And that’s all we know.
There’s a huge gap here and it doesn’t make any sense. I hope that D&D will clarify what happened and the circumstances under which this happened. But to my view, the evidence we do have, suffice to conclude that these two people came together under extraordinary circumstances, that they did deeply feel for each other and that Jon was the result of their love; that Rhaegar, at the least, was also deeply concerned about the the Kingdom and his father’s inability to properly rule due to his insanity. We can conclude, that when he joined the Targ. army, he wasn’t doing it for his father, but to protect his family.
I could be totally wrong, of course. But this is how I have interpreted the small amount of info we have available.
As to Jon’s parentage. If LF finds out, or knows about it, it’s likely that he will try to use this against him. If he tells Sansa about Jon, in order to lead her into getting him out of the way, perhaps this will have a different result than one expects: Sansa’s discotent towards Jon was generated by the notion that Jon was the fruit of her father’s infidelity that insulted her mother. So, if that notion is removed, then, her whatever discotent on that matter should be removed too. I am looking forward to see how this will play out. 🙂
Rob
I’m a fan of Jon and Dany getting together even if only as allies. As for Dany outshining Jon, well, we do not officially know yet that he is a Stargaryen, and we have no idea about what extraordinary powers he may possess. But even if he doesn’t he is a good guy and I’d love to see him cooperate support and care for Dany and vice versa:D A helpless romantic,I know!
SiriuslyStark,
The problem with Lyanna and Rhaegar is that we only have second, even third, hand accounts of them, always from people who are far from objective.
Robert Baratheon has an interest in remembering Rhaegar as a horrible creature (because he stole his girfriend).
Barristan Selmy has an interest in remembering the Targaryen prince as a wonderful potential king (because, as a man who spent most of his life and dedicated all his remarkable talents serving mad, cruel and incompetent kings, he needs to believe in something. To believe that there was once a chance)
Ned Stark, who loves his entire family regardless of who they are and what the do, has an interest in remembering Lyanna as the willful tomboyish young girl she once was (even though she may have changed in the many years they spent apart, when he was in the Eyrie)
And so on and so forth… Memory is a very plastic thing, isn’t it ? 😉
What we can piece together is sketchy and subject to massive interpretation.
The chronology of events seems to indicate that a relatively brief amount of time passed between the tourney at Harrenhal (281 AC), Lyanna’s disappearance and Brandon and Rickard Stark’s deaths (282 AC) (Robert’s Rebellion took place in 282-283 AC). And Rhaegar joined his father’s armies at the Battle of the Trident in early 283 AC.
All in all, Lyanna and the prince may have spent a grand total of one year together (still 360 days more than Romeo and Juliet ^^), mostly spent traveling to and hiding in Dorne.
The pre-“abduction” timeframe does not seem to allow for much “getting to know each other” period.
Could they have loved each other ? Sure, why not ? It all depends on one’s definition of love. Let’s face it, there are as many definitions as there are people ^^
Whatever they may have felt for each other, it popped up quickly.
Rhaegar, it is true, could simply have “taken advantage” of Lyanna, had a quick roll in the hay all he had been after. However, there is the matter of the Prince that was Promised
Finally, does it truly matter what Jon’s parents were ? Whether they were fantastic people, horrible miscreants or something in between, whether theirs was the greatest love story ever told or the infatuation of two misguided, immature individuals or something else entirely, it does not reflect on Jon in any way.
After all, Daenerys, Tyrion, Yara and Theon all had horrible fathers but they all are trying to do better. 😉
SiriuslyStark,
ACME,
I absolutely agree with ACME. But I will add that, although it doesn’t matter what Jon’s parents were, it does matter what people think they were. And that’s exactly what LF is going to exploit to discredit Jon (“a motherless bastard born in the south”).
And in a patrilineal society, it’s not the same to be Ned’s bastard son than to be Lyanna’s bastard child.
SiriuslyStark,
I thought your interpretation was really sound. I read in one of the threads on this site a speculation that LF had something to do with spreading of the news of Lyanna’s abduction. That he did that to instigate Brandon to do something foolish (like riding to KL to confront Rhaegar/the Mad King). If true, then wow, LF indeed had a hand in the downfall of the Starks from the start (not just starting with Ned’s beheading).
Yes, this is one possible scenario (which I hope is what will happen). The other one is Sansa getting convinced by LF that she needs to defend her right as the true born child of Ned against a Targaryen bastard. I expect LF will do his very best to plant seeds of discontent, sense of injustice, etc. in Sansa.
carbonUnit,
YYYYAAASSSSSSS – Sansa outmaneuvering Littlefinger would be EPIC! Afterall, she learned from the best!
Hate away I am not a millenial snowflake
I find that a little too far-fechted. And to be honest, it’s not like Brandon Stark needed someone instigating him to do foolish things. By most accounts, he was quite hot-headed and prone to display of macho attitudes.
After all, the unofficial motto of the Starks is: “Quick tempers, slow minds.” 😛
Primary identity for Jon is “bastard,” whomever his parents were. Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna, it would make little difference as such a marriage would make Rhaegar a bigamist, something that’s not accepted in Westeros. Jon would still be a bastard.
…and Mormont made clear that she knew Jon was a bastard, yet accepted him. Same is true for the Northerners who made him king. For them, the crucial thing is Jon is a “Stark,” which he would be, whether as Ned’s son, or Lyanna’s.
Against this there’s the fact that Sansa was mightily screwed. Jon, the losing general, the Watch deserter, the bastard, was made the king of the North, not Sansa, the true-born Stark who won that battle and who brings the Vale alliance with her.
That must be infuriating. I can’t see how the show can escape building up the conflict between Jon and Sansa, with Littlefinger having a field day with these two.
A Dornish Tyrell,
True dat ! 😉
By Littlefinger’s own account (which is not necessarily to be trusted but that’s all we have at the moment ^^), he was only a “boy” (late teens probably) when the tourney happened. He had yet to acquire the spies, power and influence working for Jon Arryn allowed him to gain. How could he possibly have operated ?
It appears that the reasons why everyone assumes Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar is that they both “disappeared” at the same time, neither left a note and Robert’s ego kept him from even imagining that Lyanna might have abandoned him willingly.
The myth of Lyanna’s abduction and rape does not require Littlefinger’s intervention to exist. Unless we assume she actually did leave a note and Baelish stole it… But how ? He was a virtual nobody, how could he possibly have gained access to that thing ?
Don’t get me wrong, Littlefinger is deviously good at what he does so there is always a possibility, but is he really that good ? How could he do it ? 😉
As Dornish Tyrell wrote, Brandon tended to live his House’s unofficial words to the fullest, even without any help ^^
To be fair, Joffrey was the sole architect of Ned’s beheading. He took the decision quite all on his own. ^^
It is funny how many of Joffrey’s crimes tend to be attributed to other people : Cersei often gets blamed for the murders of Robert’s bastards, she and Littlefinger are frequently assumed to be behind the assassination attempt on Bran, Baelish is considered responsible for Ned’s beheading…
The blond psycho is weirdly lucky, that way 🙂
What’s great about that plan is that the Northern lords basically did all the work for him by completely ignoring her very existence during the entire KitN scene… Well done, Northern lords ! Amazing job ! ^^
I wouldn’t call Rhaegar and Elia’s relationship “complex”. It was rather straightforward: he was fond of his wife but didn’t love her. She, on the other hand, was head over heels in love with him.
What was complex was the circumstances surrounding that marriage.
And then all hell broke loose, as we know…
Well, we know he was in a loveless marriage, so he needn’t be a womanizer to suddenly feel infatuated with a Northern beauty… Plus all his absessions about the “Prince that was Promised” prophecy that ACME has thoroughly detailed. 🙂
We may be putting too much weight in political marriages at a time we’re on the doorstep of the climax. At this point in the story with all that’s happening and going to be happening I don’t think they need to bog it down with unnecessary marriage plots in the North. The houses of the North are already following Jon. Personally I think the idea that he marry Sansa is silly and it doesn’t provide him anything additional. The Riverlands are in shambles and/or covered with Lannisters whom Jon will not ally with in the name of Cersei. Any houses beyond there are either going to surprisingly support her or join Daenerys. Jon is focused on the NK and not concerned with fighting over the throne as everyone else will be outside of the North. The only marriage/alliance that seems likely and necessary at this stage is one that unites all of the living in Westeros to combat the army of wights. The obvious choice has to be Daenerys after she spends a very short six or seven episodes gaining control. There’s not much time left (for the show) to mess with stage setting as season seven has to start with shit hitting the fan pretty quickly and repeatedly.
lord of blogfell,
Not sure there is a time for it because it might be rushed and doing it for the sake of it. Political marriage makes sense but romance nah. I mean in theory they can do it but both of them desire family. They doesn’t have to jump into bed but of course that’s Targaryen tradition. In order to do it they would have to meet early as middle of next season that is unlikely. Political marriage was foreshadowed but not a word about romance and quite frankly with white walkers around not sure is the best idea.
Clob,
You don’t have to marry someone to fight walkers. It’s a common sense to fight them because otherwise everyone will die. But if to settle differences between living it might like between North and South and avoiding war or if his parentage will become known. But then how to prove it and Isaac talked about spreading the word about Jon and his birth.
Hi ACME! Yes, that was exactly my point: we know very little about what actually happened to reach any absolutes, as I have written. The lack of info leaves lots of room for speculation and intepretation for all of us, according to our personal point of view.
However, based on the little facts we do know and the little we’ve seen of Lyanna on the show, I have made my personal intepretation/connections; it does differ to your view – which I do find logical btw. But I’ll stick with my train of thought on this case because it makes sense to me- until or if another reasoning makes more sense 😉
As for the new Stark quote I would rather go with something less catchy: excessively stuck with law and honour to the degree of self-destruction. 😀
It’s not that they are slow, but the fact that while they know that doing the right thing will likely get them killed, they do it anyway. Ned for example, refused LF’s proposal – which was of course the obvious solution, that would get him power and ensure his safety. Did he play along? No. He did that stupid thing, being honourable. On the other hand, as much as I was frustrated with him, that was the moment I became Seriously and Siriusly Stark. 🙂
Sam Happy you find points of agreement 🙂
I don’t know if LF played a role – even if young I suspect that he was already a talent at playing the Game- or if Cercei had something to do with it (she wanted to marry Rhaegar but Elia took him and then Rhaegar – shame shame shame – eloped with Lyanna). I imagine a very pissed off Cercei or Lannisters that could have been involved in this.
As for LF – Sansa…oh I’m sure he’ll do his best to create problems! I trust him in that! 😀
I haven’t read the books so I don’t have a specific view of Rhaegar/Elia’s relationship – but if GRRM used the word ‘complex’ to describe the usual, simple, everyday ‘love without return’ stuff, I think he made a very ill choice of word! 😀
But even so, if Rhaegar didn’t love Elia, his heart would be open to someone else. He fell for Lyanna: we don’t choose who we love 🙂
I would insist on my initial thought, about whether he did have real feelings for her or was just infatuated: if the latter, one would definitely not die speaking her name as his last words, nor would he go against the world just to be with her. Again, this is my personal view, it doesn’t mean I’m right.
Of course there might have been the possibility that both you and ACME have mentioned about the Prince that was promised motive, though, my personal thinking is that if that was indeed what happened, there likely was someone that urged Rhaegar into that belief/direction, someone whose opinion he valued, or perhaps, someone connected with religion or magic that influenced his choices. 🙂
Thank you both also for your inside info: these were things I didn’t know or didn’t know in details 🙂
Hey SiriuslyStark ! How you doin’ ? 😉
SiriuslyStark
And you are absolutely correct to do so. We know far too little for there to be one answer, one way or another. 😉
The teeny caveat I would add nonetheless is that we might be tempted to believe that, because Jon is such a great guy by and large, he must come from great “things” : a great love story between two wonderful people. Him being him, with all the remarkable qualities (as well as the many many flaws ^^) and with what appears to be a rather extraordinary destiny ahead of him, does not require for his existence’s genesis to be as glorious.
Were we to find out his parents’ relationship was not the stuff of songs and legends, it should not be a cause for regret or disappointment, I believe. It would not take anything away from Jon as a character or as a very credible candidate for “chosen one” 🙂
SiriuslyStark
A bit long to put on a t-shirt but it may very well catch on 😉
LOL you’ve reminded me of ‘Friends’ ! Doin’ well! 😀
I wholeheartedly agree: it doesn’t change or take anything away from his character.:) It could play a role in the way the Northeners see him,, though, if the truth about his parentage comes out – and to him as a human being too. I imagine that it would make a difference to him emotionally, not only to know about his parents but also that he was the product of affection – if that theory stands after all. 🙂
A bit long to put on a t-shirt but it may very well catch on
Yeap! 😀 😛
Hi SiriuslyStark! I never meant to imply you were on the wrong. I apologize if I came across as such. 🙂
My own tinfoilery prevents me from any possible claim of being right. 😉
I believe that the truth about Rhaegar feelings towards Lyanna lies a little bit in between: he was infatuated with her (of should I say, they both were infatuated with each other), and (maybe) in the time they spent together, he did fall in love with her (although we will never know the true nature of his feelings). And maybe the prophecy also played a part in him falling in love with her: from their union it was supposed to be born the Prince that was Promised… Were his final words dedicated to Lyanna as “the love of his life” or as “the mother of the chosen one“?
Geralt of Rivia,
most of the romance in got were develloped in like 3 scenes in one season….look at robb and talysa or shae and tyrion…a marriage is logical and i don’t see for now any reason agains a romance between them
maria,
No, you’re wrong. Aegon the conqueror had 2 wives – Visenya and Rhaenys and their children were all legitimate. I think Rhaegar married Lyanna as she would have insisted on that to make sure the Jon Snow was legitimate. Jon Snow is most likely trueborn. Additionally, Jon died and therefore is not a Watch deserter. Not to mention that it was Sansa who convinced him to fight to regain Winterfell. Without Jon, Sansa cannot take the North since they will not support her since they support Jon.
lord of blogfell,
In like 3 scenes? Oh come on, it took season. Even Robb and Talisa is not exactly best example. If they do it it’s a rushed mess.
You don’t see any reason against? How about it’s not needed. You got white walkers coming on them and throwing romance for the sake of it. Besides it’s not like man and woman has to fuck. Both want family. Political marriage understand that but romance not really.
The more I think about it, the more eager I am to see a Tyrion/Sansa reunion scene. Not that I really believe that they will pair off; Sansa could hardly be blamed if she never wanted a man to touch her ever again. But it would be really interesting to see what feelings would be evoked in them.
I expect that Tyrion would feel compassion for her sufferings and be glad to see her alive and as whole as could be expected, considering what she’d been through. Plus, he would be eager to know what she knew about Joffrey’s assassination. I could imagine him making some awkward attempt at expressing a wish that he could’ve made the loss of her maidenhead a less traumatic experience. And he would of course be interested in Jon.
For Sansa’s part, I imagine her trying to express (also awkwardly) her appreciation that he had been gentle and not forced his attentions on her, when he had a legal right to do so. She might even have some regret that he had not been her first lover, considering what followed. How much she would divulge about Joffrey’s assassination would depend on when the conversation happened, I suppose: whether she was done with Baelish yet.
It could be a great scene, I think, calling for some plummy acting. And if Theon is still part of Dany’s traveling road show at that point, he could be an interesting part of the mix as well. I can imagine Tyrion getting all confused over when Rickon died and by whose hand and so on. Time to pour that wine back into the carafe, Hand of the Queen!
I also really want to witness the moment when Theon finds out that Ramsay is dead.
Hi Dornish Tyrell! As my tinfoil too, despite the fact I have antennas!!! Reception gets disrupted by D&D! 😀
Yes, I guess the truth should be somewhere in middle regarding this story! I would very much like to know his last words but it’s not mentioned anywhere, I don’t know if it is written in the books!
In any case, I really- really hope, that D&D will get to this next season. Perhaps show us the events at Harrenhal, what happened between them, and perhaps more insight about the nature of their relationship! I feel that even if time is restricted next season, this is a matter that needs clarification in order to establish Jon’s parentage on the one side (it hasn’t been done officialy, the father’s name was not revealed) but also to determine the nature of this parentage, which could play a huge role in Jon’s psychology and growth as a character and of course on his future, given that Northeners hate the Targaryens. 🙂
I ‘d love to see that too 😀 Tyrion protected her in his way, and to the extend he could protect her, while she was in KL. And also he had this nice interaction with Jon at the time they went to the Wall. He admired Ned too. I think that he could be the key if there is a Jon/Dany alliance to be made in the future 🙂
ACME,
as well as the many many flaws…
Pfft. What flaws? Jon Snow is an almost perfect soul 🙂 (Although he could do with a bit of loosening up, get the weight of the world off his shoulders now and then, maybe finding a girlfriend, as it’s not natural to remain in a state of celibacy at his age now that he’s lost his virginity. The man needs to get laid, there I said it. Then again I like that he has morals and saving any possible baby making for within a marriage 🙂
There is something a bit disturbing about Sophie Turner, especially her weird perving on Maisie Williams. I can see her as a villain.
But I have to admit, she’s pretty damn funny! 🙂
Aryamad,
Why? Sansa has always been selfish, jealous, and a bit evil. Just because she was abused doesn’t make her good. Remember she betrayed her own family.
She’s a natural villain, and I think that’s where her story is heading. She and Littlefinger will meet their ends at the hands of the Night King. Hehe.
Dee Stark,
Littlefinger doesn’t put things into people’s heads so much as recognize them and pull them out.
He saw her ambition and her resentment of her brother. It wasn’t his invention; it already existed inside her…which is why if this was Arya, he wouldn’t have said “half brother.” Jon as half brother doesn’t exist in Arya’s mind.
Firannion,
I couldn’t agree more and support everything you wrote 100%
The Tyrion/Sansa and Theon/Sansa reunions could be fascinating, given their potential.
While there is this very pessimistic voice in my head that keeps on murmuring that Theon might not make it to Westeros (I always expect the worst ^^), I truly hope he does and gets to hear of Ramsay’s death from Sansa herself.
The goodbye scene between these two is one of the most touching the show has ever produced, in my humble opinion. The fire in Alfie Allen when he says “I would have died to get you there” is stunning : Theon, as battered, broken and mutilated as he may be, emerges from the primordial slurge of Reek, once and for all. And Sansa hugs him… For the first time in three years, he receives a human touch designed to comfort, not damage. Truly moving.
These two left each other in rather pitiful states; they deserve to meet again under better circumstances (which probably means it will not happen 😉 )
Ha ha ha !
There is a lot that can happen between “perfect” and “almost perfect”… 😉
ACME,
You’re right! I always get confused with the age of show and book characters. That event happened about 17-18 years before the start of the series (?) and so I’ve imagined LF to be in his late 20s by then (based on Aidan Gillen’s estimated age). 🙂 While it does seem far-fetched, it’s something that his character is capable of doing, I think, especially since it happened right before the wedding of his beloved Catelyn to Brandon Stark (who he must have hated not just for taking away his Catelyn but for humiliating him in front of his beloved by beating him badly in a duel).
Oh, I’m not absolving Joffrey of his “sin”. 🙂 To be fair, the only person LF did kill is Lysa (and possibly the future death of SweetRobyn in the books). What’s fascinating about LF is that he may not have a direct hand in the deaths of people (Jon Arryn, Ned, Joffrey) but his manipulation/scheming was instrumental in bringing these people to their deaths.
So true. The Northern lords sparked the fire and LF will stoke it and stoke it and stoke it until it burns brightly.
That’s a very interesting way of looking at it.
Thank you for articulating this so well. I hope the show will clarify what exactly happened, because as of now, it just doesn’t add up for me. It could be just me, since it seems to make sense to many. But I really hope that we get a bit more clarification as to how Rhaegar, who was deeply concerned about the Kingdom going into the Tourney, suddenly forgot all about that, or why Lyanna didn’t think to mention to her family where she was.
SiriuslyStark,
I haven’t thought much of Rhaegar and Lyanna’s “romance” (if it really did exist) other than they’re the addends in that famous sum equation. 🙂 So I loved reading all the points you, ACME, A Dornish Tyrell, and others have made here. This made me excited to know more about what really happened to them. I wonder if one of the 3 twists that GRRM told D&D (the first one is the Hodor reveal) is about these two. My own tinfoil hat says that the Mad King had something to do with the abduction but Rhaegar intervened and hid/brought her to safety. He intended to overthrow his father but the rebellion started and all hell broke loose. It’s as tinfoilery as it can get, obviously. 🙂
And it would be so ironic if it turned out TPTWP was actually his younger sister. 🙂
Thank you, Kay 🙂 I believe that they must do that and I believe they have the intention to clarify it next season: that’s why they left us with a bit of cliffhanger regarding Jon’s parentage on the father matter. This is a ‘to be continued’ matter!
A plausible answer would be Sam‘s input:
‘My own tinfoil hat says that the Mad King had something to do with the abduction but Rhaegar intervened and hid/brought her to safety. He intended to overthrow his father but the rebellion started and all hell broke loose. It’s as tinfoilery as it can get, obviously’
….which finds me in total agreement as far as tinfoilery is concerned!!! Tinfoilers United! 😀 Mad King was …well Mad, and he had a soft spot for beautiful girls. He also saw enemies everywhere, even in his own son. It wouldn’t then come as a surprise if he had something to do with Lyanna’s abduction, or otherwise that he had some kind of essential implication in this matter, that drove Rhaegar to take some urgent, extreme measures and would explain both Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s actions or lack of actions respectively.
I have a question: is TPTWP the same thing with Azor Ahai? Is there a connection to the Last Hero, or were they 3 completely different people?
Hmmm… I’d rather say that there’s an ambilavence in her character from the start, a character that you can’t decide if you want to support or not, episode to episode. At least that’s how I received her character through seasons. At the moment I find her equally capable of doing good as doing evil. I give her the benefit of the doubt: she has a choice to make, whether to do harm in order to satisfy her ego and personal ambitions or to use her skills to get rid off (sorry ACME 😛 ) LF, which is the most immediate danger to Jon. We’ll see. ( If she goes villain, I will send her to Night King myself! 😀 )
PS: 10 points for your Avatar. 😀
And what exactly was this “betrayal” of her family that everyone is talking about? If I remember right, it was LF’s betrayal that caused Ned’s downfall. Sansa only asked Cersei to ask the king to order Ned to stay in KL (and even this happened only in the books). By that time, Cersei was already aware of Ned’s plotting against her because Ned himself told her that.
SiriuslyStark,
I’ve always thought they’re one and the same but someone in one of the threads here made a distinction between the two. But I think the show won’t make that distinction as we heard Melisandre interchange AA and TPTWP as if they’re the same thing.
As far as I remember, they are different accounts of the same myth: a hero that saves humanity from an impending doom… But I might be forgeting something…
Although I doubt Dany is TPTWP, it would be deliciously ironic if it were true! It would make Rhaegar a male version of Melisandre: always misinterpreting the signs/prophecies. 😛
Lord Parramandas,
What betrayal? In the show she remained neutral (Switzerland would have been proud of her) when questioned about the incident with the direwolf. Yes, she didn’t side with Arya, but she didn’t quite side with Jeoffrey either. She just said that everything happened so fast and she didn’t remember.
In the books it’s the same, with her later going to the Queen to ask her to “convince” the King to keep Ned (and therefore herself) in KL… By the time, Cersei was fully aware of Ned’s intentions.
So, are those the terrible, unforgivable crimes that make Sansa a villain, evil even? Please!!!
Lord Parramandas,
Lord Parramandas,
A Game of Thrones (the book) is more explicit about her betrayal. Let’s say she actively worked to thwart her father’s plans to get her and Arya safely out of King’s Landing. Her selfish actions led to her father’s death.
Lord Parramandas,
If the Hound goes to Winterfell with Dondarrion and tells the Starks that LF held a dagger to Ned’s throat, I’d say Petyr’s chances of making it to the next sunrise are slim to none.
Red Nightmare,
Like I said above, Sansa’s actions had nothing to do with Ned’s death. Yes, her actions were selfish but irrelevant. It was Ned himself who couldn’t keep his mouth shut and informed Cersei about her children. Sansa came to Cersei after Ned. And the ultimate betrayal came from LF and Janos Slynt.
And again, these actions DID NOT happen in TV continuity, so TV Sansa did not “betray” her family.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Yes, she didn’t side with Arya, but she didn’t quite side with Jeoffrey either.
What she should have done is just tell the truth. ? By then she saw what kind of cruel person Joffrey was. He could have killed her sister, if it wasn’t for the wolf. Yet she covered for him by saying she didn’t know what happened. Just as she covered up LF’s crimes. And just like she foolishly married Ramsay Bolton, who for all she knew would be a prince she could end up falling for, regardless of how it makes her look to the North. And becoming a family member of the traitors who murdered your loved ones and took your home. I mean, she must have known the marriage will be consummated and possibly having the man’s babies. Weird of her to go along with the plan really. Yet, she’s still under influence of the conniving, murderous, selfish Littlefinger, all because he shows her favor. (Though she might not actively want to be, might even resent that she is weak in this regard.) Granted, who else did she have in the world after her family was either killed or scattered to the wind? Nobody really. But now she has Jon and she knows Arya’s alive and possibly Bran. However, seeds planted that she could still side with LF of all people next season? Pfft. Well, I guess I can see it. She’s no angel and never has been.
You seem to forget that, after the incident, when Arya was mad at Sansa, Ned told her that Sansa did exacyly what she was expected of her: to be on his intended side even if he was wrong (I would argue that she took a greater risk by remaining neutral). That’s what wives were supposed to do in that world. Much more so the one who would become queen some day… So, if Ned could forgive her, why wouldn’t we?
This exactly explains why she ended up doing what she did. As she told baby Mormont: she did what she had to do to survive.
And yet, she was instrumental in retaking Winterfell, her and her siblings home. And that plan took a terrible toll on her, mind you.
You seem to want all the Starks to be immaculate heroes. I don’t.
I’m perfectly happy with them being flawed characters, with shortcommings and scars. And Sansa is far away from being perfect or an angel. She can be naïve, obnoxious, selfish and a long list of etc., but she is far from being the monster many people want her to be… And so far, she has done more to retake WF than any other Stark. 😉
Oh don’t get me started on this mess, Sam ! 😉
The whole bloody thing is a quagmire of cosmic proportions : Tyrion in the books is supposed to be in his late twenties while, on the show, he is played by forty-something Peter Dinklage. Now, Mr. Dinklage is one handsome devil but it would take a hell of a glaucoma to believe he is anywhere south of 35 ! Jaime, Cersei and Oberyn are supposed to be older than Tyrion but Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Lena Headey and Pedro Pascal are all younger than Mr. Dinklage… There is neither rhyme nor reason to this thing, so we all might as well just look the other way ^^
Sam
Here’s another can of worms ! ^^
Baelish says he went to the tourney with the Tullys, as their ward. Now, we know Holster Tully threw Littlefinger out of Riverrun as a result of his duel with Brandon. So the tourney must have taken place before the duel.
Hence the chronology seems to go something like this :
– tourney at Harrenhal
– duel between Brandon and Littlefinger (at Riverrun)
– Lyanna’s “abduction” (we don’t know where that happened but Littlefinger must have still been in recovery from his injury at that time, I would assume)
– Brandon hears of his sister’s “kidnapping” and rushes straight to King’s Landing
It’s a mess, Sam, I tell you ! A bloody, epic mess ! 😉
Sam
There is a slight difference between Jon Arryn and Joffrey on the one hand and Ned on the other. In Arryn and Joffrey’s cases, Littlefinger orchestrated their deaths. He may not have killed them with his own hands but he explicitly organised their murders. He wanted them dead.
Ned, conversely… His execution was a spur-of-the-moment decision for Joffrey. Nobody saw it coming, not even Cersei or Varys. So I doubt Baelish planned for or expected it to happen. Did he want Ned out of the picture ? Of that, there is no doubt. He tried to work with him but that failed. So he took him out. Did he want him dead ? I doubt it. If he did, why not he kill him or have him killed ? Why rely on Joffrey’s whim ? It seems unlilely to me.
My guess is that he simply did not care whether Ned lived or died. Once he wrote him off as a viable accomplice, Stark’s continued existence was irrelevant as long as he was no longer “on the board”.
Sam
Yep. As Anon said, Littlefinger excels at identifying what people want. He does not put anything into their heads; he digs things up.
Sansa, it seems, wants some independent power, which makes sense given her past experiences. Over the years, she has been the Warden of the North’s daughter, the Hand of the King’s daughter, the King’s betrothed, the King in the North’s sister, the Master of Coin’s wife… And none of that has ever protected her from harm. At all. None of the powerful men she was related to has ever succeeded in protecting her (not for lack of trying, in her father’s and Tyrion’s cases). So she may be tempted to get some power for herself and see where that takes her.
As Dornish Tyrell wrote, those are three versions of a somewhat basic messianic myth from three different regions (the “Prince that was Promised” prophecy seems to come from Valyria, the legend of Azor Ahai is from Asshai and the Last Hero story is Westerosi… like the Romans, the Greeks and the Egyptians each had their own incarnation of a Sun God, with different names and characteristics depending on each civilisation’s preferences and culture).
A major problem here is that Ned did not tell his daughters why he so desperately wanted them out of King’s Landing. While I understand why he prefered not to give them the exact details, he failed to communicate to them the very real urgency and dangerosity of the matter. To his kids, it must have looked like some sort of whim on their father’s part.
That’s a general problem with the Starks : they never quite explain why they do what they do, especially not to the people whose support and cooperation they need the most. Ned did not specifically answer his daughters’ questions in regard to their precipitated departure from King’s Landing; Robb failed to tell Edmure why he wanted him to stay put; Jon did not address enough his brothers’ fears about the Wildlings’s potential behaviour once south of the Wall.
If I had one piece of advice to give the Starks, it would be : Explain yourselves, goddammit ! Take five minutes of your precious time and detail what it is you want to do and why you think it is a good idea ! Try it, it will change your lives ^^
Don’t worry for me; I have been bracing myself for it since I read the first book 😉
(Why do smart antagonists have to die ? Why ? Kill the dumb ones, I don’t care, but the smart ones… Oh the humanity ! ^^)
Joffrey, for better and mostly for worse, was the man her father chose for her. Ned made the deal with Robert, without any input from Sansa.
While her reasons probably had more to do with her wanting to be a pretty, pretty princess in the South (and possibly her having some long-standing beef with her little sister 🙂 ), covering up for Joffrey was completely in keeping with her father’s wishes.
ygritte
Like Jon who became allies with Tormund even though the flamboyant ginger massacred several of his Night’s Watch brothers and countless innocent villagers, regardless of how it made him look to the Northern lords, commoners and surviving members of his brotherhood ?
In both cases, there is a trade-off, with a risk attached : Jon believes keeping the Wildlings from turning into wights is worth the risk of letting them cross the Wall (and possibly seeing some of them continue their attacks on villages): Sansa believes reinstating a Stark in Winterfell is worth the risk of marrying a Bolton.
As both Littlefinger and Tyrion have stated : “we only make peace with our enemies, my lord. That’s why it is called ‘making peace'”, “we make peace with our enemies, not our friends”. 😉
However, Sansa is guilty of a betrayal : that of not wanting to be a Stark. She used to be the “reluctant” Stark, the one who did not care for either the Northern identity or the Stark mythos. And that old sin casts one hell of a long shadow ^^
ACME,
Reading that chronology puts a thought in mind….what if the man responsible for much of the trouble we know about was also the instigator of Lyanna being “kidnapped?” But how? What lie could he have told with the thought of getting Brandon in trouble that would have brought Lyanna and Rhaegar into the mix? Was Rhaegar hiding and protecting her from somebody? Did the mad king say something that made his son fear for the young girl’s life? He did call for Ned’s head after killing Brandon and Rickard maybe he wanted all the Starks dead because of LF whispering BS in his ear, him knowing Aerys was already racked with paranoia. I really need to read the books. But yeah something tells me LF’s pulling strings started even before we see him kicking off certain events at start of the series.
Thank you Sam, A Dornish Tyrell and ACME for your answers – so this PTWP is a facet of the same thing. It is interesting how the mythology of this person is different from area to area based on different belief systems. The most detailed one, I find is the Azor Ahai one. The Last Hero is too vague and different from the other ones. I’ll have to meditate on the matter with my tinfoil 🙂
Oh, the horror and injustice!!! ^^ But then, Valar Morghulis! (Preferably villains first! 😀 )
ygritte,
I understand the impulse to make Littlefinger the root of all evils. I do, really. But we may be barking up the wrong tree here ^^
Petyr Baelish is the son of some obscure, nameless knight with an obscure, nameless holding in the smallest peninsula of the Fingers (hence his nickname, “kindly” given to him by Edmure) who, by chance, met and got along with Holster Tully during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. As a result of that friendly connection, his son Petyr was granted the tremendous honour to be educated with the Tully children at Riverrun, as a ward.
Until he started working for Jon Arryn, managing the Gulltown port, he had no highborn connection whatsoever aside from the Tullys (and Holster threw him out after his duel with Brandon…) He was not received at King’s Landing and had literally no way to talk to the King, no matter how mad the monarch might be 😉
If there was someone in position to whisper anything into the Mad King’s ear, it was the Master of Whispers himself, Varys.
I shall try not to weep too loudly when it happens. Stiff upper lip ! 😉
That’s interesting, I was wondering about the specifics of LF upbringing 🙂
We can’t totally rule out the possibility that he may had played in the events though – it’s not necessary to whisper something to the King’s ear, all it takes is to do or say something to the right person at the right time. I’m sure LF was -even if young – ready and able to read people correctly and also to choose/use the right timing and place. That’s how he managed to climb the ladder, after all, it didn’t happen in a day 🙂
Awww… this pun! Born with a stiff upper lip too 😉 I wept silently at the Red Wedding incident. Just before I practiced my french! 🙂
I will never understand this ‘Sansa is evil’ bs. Spoilt and petulant? Yes. Evil? No.
People forget she saved ser Dontos’ life. She was kind and courteous to Tyrion: called him handsome on their wedding day, bonded with him when people laughed at him, picked up the goblet when Joff was humiliating him. She encouraged the women during the battle of the Blackwater. Showed concern for Arya, twice. Asked Jon for forgiveness for being an ass to him and without her, they would have not taken Winterfel.
I don’t want her to become evil but I do understand if she resents the northern lords completely ignoring her claim as the true heir to Robb and Winterfell.
Unlike everybody else, I will probably never like ‘the king in the North’ scene. The snubbing of Sansa is just awful.
But has no manhood
carbonUnit,
YES! I agree with your thinking! He, L.F. has driven me nuts since Season One! He deserves his due share of suffering, equal to what he has brought upon others; without a hint of remorse ever! “Slime Ball” comes to mind every time he arrives on scene!
r-hard,
He did treat her well, not forcing intimacy,…. respect, sensitivity and decency all say a lot of his character! Much of which are lacking in all of his siblings! I’d like to see them end up together again!
<font><font>r-dura</font></font>,
Tyrion does not deserve anything, she does not like that dwarf idiot will not end with it and you forget that Sandor also treated her well in King’s Landing.
<font><font>Barbapapà</font></font>,
sansa / tyrion awful couple she did not like the dwarf idiot stop insisting that finish together.
and what you said only happens in the show, in books dwarf pedophile pawing her breasts and wants to rape her just does not feel hurt because of it, you idiot.