The big news for Game of Thrones season 5 was that the show would finally be including at least one flashback, possibly as part of a dream.
Without revealing spoilers, the flashback involves Cersei and a friend of hers visiting with an older woman called Maggy the Frog.
Casting news has been hard to come by lately, but our sharp-eyed readers noticed a name added to the show’s IMDB credits. A quick visit to the actress’s agency resume has confirmed the casting, so it’s official: Nell Williams will be playing the role of young Cersei.
Williams was a regular on The Revolting World of Stanley Brown, the CBBC sitcom that starred Dean-Charles Chapman.
And there’s one more casting notice….
According to her agency, actress Hattie Gotobed, who played Lily in Snow White and the Huntsman, recently filmed a role on Game of Thrones.
According to her Spotlight CV, the character’s name is Ghita. There is no further information on the part. The name feels more Essos-style. Perhaps she is somewhere in Dany’s storyline, or maybe she is the ill child referred to in this casting call for the father?
Sue the Fury: Well, Williams is a lovely young actress, and she looks great for the part. It’s interesting that she co-starred with Chapman, and now she’s playing his mom.
She looks the part
It is interesting that the IMDB link suggests that “Young Cersei” appears in at least three episodes – This might be an ongoing series of flashbacks??? I would have expected only one appearance.
Of all the flashbacks, they chose this one: the worst decision GRRM has made.
The young actress looks perfect for the part.
Well, that’s pretty exciting news. Adding it to the GoT wiki!
Lars,
But three episodes does sound a tad overkill, doesn’t it? The specific episode info is probably wrong, as it often is on IMDB.
Reminder: please cover your spoilers! This is not a spoiler free-for-all post.
Am I the only one who thinks she doesn’t really look the part lol? she has the blond hair but the cheekbone structure…….not so much.
also it does seem like she’ll be in more than one episode hmmmmm, sine her resume says “various” for directors
Spoilers!:
Not a fan of the flashback myself. I thought Cersei’s motivation for hating Tyrion was already well-grounded and realistic;
(Sue, can you cover my spoilers or tell me how – I haven’t posetd in a while and I can’t get tags to work…)
and that her future daughter is played by a Nell as well…..
I’m taking her IMDB stuff with a massive grain of salt because for starters it says season SIX. But yeah it would be weird if she were in more than one episode because they’ve hinted it was just one flashback.
Sue the Fury,
what about her agency resume though? weird how it says “various” for directors…..
Valaquen,
Yeah but if they included it ,then it means it has some importance in the future because remember D and D don’t usually reference the past unless it means something .
Oh this *IS* good news, everyone!
Lars,
We might see Cersei dream snippets of the scene before the scene is shown in full. That’s a common way to “tease” the audience for an upcoming flashback scene, and to develop what is going through a character’s mind.
That could make it the best, too: it’s not like SoI&F is littered with flashback scenes! (I’m trying to think of any other that they could have included and coming up blank.)
Moreover, this actually will have some subtle payoff this year, in all probability.
That is a much stricter rule for TV & film than for books: don’t show things unless they are going to be relevant to the story or at least to the plot soon. It is very different than for books, which rely on these sorts of narrative devices in lieu of performance, actions, costumes, etc., to develop characters and to create a backdrop.
Nice two have young Cersei finally revealed! Her being listed on IMDb sounds more like something her agent would do as opposed to a random person who happened to come across her CV, although they seem to have mistakenly submitted here to season 6.
Also, Hattie’s brother played young Sirius in the last Harry Potter film.
Wimsey,
If we get repeats, I think it’s gonna be the other way around. Full flashback first, then snippets.
aurane waters,
Not really. We’ve seen it say “Various” under other people’s director’s names/slots before and had them turn out to only be in one ep that season, so I’ve learned to just be really cautious. Sometimes it does mean that, sometimes it means the agency had no clue who the director was so they just put that.
Well, I have been away for quite some time. Good post to come back on. I hope D&D seriously tweak this flashback. Like, completely change it. I enjoyed Cersei’s arc in AFFC immensley (her PoV is hilarious), but this particular flashback was a stupendously bad decision on Martin’s part.
A faithful adaptation of the flashback on the show would be even worse though. Show Cersei is a much more human character, if they throw in that particular flashback, it’s going to be even more incredulous.
Are we really sure they are bringing us that flashback? I haven’t followed the news in quite some time, couldn’t they have thought of their own (hopefully better) flashback?
Long live Oppo!
#PoorPenny #CerseiGoesBatshitCrazy
Wouldn’t read too much into IMDB saying she’s in 3 episodes. Scenes get tossed across episodes in editing. Directors take credit for entire episodes. Could be it’s in one, max 2 episodes, and they just didn’t know what exact episode her scenes would end up in.
Or atleast that’s what I’m hoping.
My guess that whatever Maggy tells her, it’s less about Tyrion and more about the Snow White “younger, more beautiful one will supplant you” aspect. This season for Cersei will be about her and Margaery’s feud over Tommen escalating exponentially. It would be a good idea to have Cersei’s motivations for protecting Tommen against Margaery be even more grounded in her paranoia from this interaction.
Veltigar,
There was a casting call for Maggy the Frog, and D&D said this coming season they broke their rule of not having flashbacks and prophecies. So… yeah, it’s gonna happen.
I’m not fond of it either. Cersei has enough human motivations to hate Tyrion and envy Margeary. A metaphysical prophecy is really not needed. So I do hope we get a twist on it, yeah.
Isn’t various sometimes just put for when they can’t reveal the director? I recall Ciaran Hinds being listed as various directors for S4.
Bad fla
I agree.
I agree.
Personally, I think that prophecy would have worked better if it had been delivered in the present. Especially since we would have avoided Cersei being a probable killer at ten.
Tower of Joy would have been even better :p
Hattie Gotobed?? Hattie Go To Bed?? Hattie, Go the fuck to bed? Why won’t she go to bed? Samuel L Jackson would like a word with you, Hattie.
Veltigar,
That will probably still happen when it’s needed (maybe through Bran?), when it’s time to reveal L+R=J (if the popular theory is indeed correct).
The point is, it’s not easy adding flashbacks when the way you structure the show doesn’t allow for it. You cannot just begin doing it now; it has to be disguised as a dream or a vision, and there aren’t that many opportunities for either.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5309709/?ref_=tt_cl_t1
She is placed in S6 not in S5 !!
Can’t say I’m over the moon about flashbacks and even less so if they’re going to become a regular thing. My worry for the next season increases but I hope I’m whittling over nothing.
The lass looks good for the part though (two Nells playing two Lannisters!). Wonder if they’ll include the bit where
as the show seems to be trying to paint Cersei in a much, much more sympathetic light than the books?
Looking forward to seeing a portrayal of Young Cersei.
Side note, I’ve been paying no attention to IMDB, as it seems consistently inaccurate for future, episode-specific castings (e.g. Nell Williams being listed in S6E1, every new character being added to S5E1 after confirmation that they are to appear in the season; there’s no way Yezzan is in S5E1…)
TheTouchOfFrost,
It’s a flashback disguised in a dream sequence. Sansa already dreamed about her recent attempted rape all the way back in season 2, and nobody seemed to care. Granted, it was a short flashback/dream, but still; my point is, flashbacks are likely not gonna suddenly become a part of the structure of the show, in the style of Lost; it’s gonna be a contextual flashback, and that’s it.
In other words, I wouldn’t worry.
Martin,
Yes we see that. But since we know they already filmed the flashback for this year, it’s safe to assume someone goofed, and they meant to write season 5, not 6.
Luka Nieto,
Yeah,
I was hoping for Kieran Shipka, from Mad Men (I felt like she
Would nail Heady’s mannerisms), bit here’s hoping she’s right for the part.
ok i agree with some people here about how book!cersei is slightly cartoony but IMO only some elements of her are but in the grand scheme of things she’s a MUCH more complex and fascinating character than show!cersei IMO.
Harry Lime,
A bit too old, isn’t she? She’s like 15 or so.
Luka Nieto,
It was technically a flashback but was a repeat of a scene the viewer had already witnessed. It worked as it was short and the viewer had that expereience to draw upon to make it make sense. If they start trying to get across anything but the most basic backstory through these sequence I think it’s gonna get messy.
But again, if not done well it could be very corny. Think that giving her a confidant ( Hey Tanya Merryweather!) who she spills her chidhood memories and secrets too would have worked better but we’ll see.
They are worrying times! I think this will be the season that confirms whether GoT will be a great series or just a good one.
Congratulations to Nell. Even in the photo above, she does resemble young Cersei, as well as Nell Tiger Free’s Myrcella. Really looking forward to the flashback scenes, should be good.
I think the show is trying to make Cersei a bit more human. That doesn’t necessarily make her more sympathetic. Her motivations and resentments, though understandable, are no excuse for the crap things she does. She’s still a terrible person.
Valaquen,
For myself, at that point I thought Cersei’s motivations for hating Tyrion were petty, irrational, and crazy… He was born, their mother died, he’s a dwarf.
Also, the Valonquar prophecy and its reveal isn’t just about Cersei’s hatred/fear of Tyrion… it’s also very important for explaining Cersei’s actions against Margaery Tyrell: That Cersei is trying to prevent the prophecy, by preventing Margaery’s ascension, thus preventing the death of Tommen and Myrcella.
It all makes Cersei a, somewhat, more reasonable and nuanced character… she doesn’t (just) hate Tyrion for being a dwarf, but because she believes he is the Valonquar… she doesn’t (just) hate Margaery because she’s young, and beautiful, and a Tyrell, but because Margaery’s rise is linked to the death of her children.
I think it’s the perfect flashback for what’s going to be a Cersei-heavy season.
I’m surprised that so many people aren’t fond of these flashbacks. It’s always reminded me of Macbeth. Except there’s one witch instead of three. In trying to avert the prophecy she will make it come true. It’s a classic literary device.
I’m ok with flashblacks, as long as they’re well done and don’t look cheesy. That being said, I trust D&D in making this work, as long as that’s the first season 5 shot and it ends with Cersei awake with the KL’s bells ringing (as a poster above said) and then cut to the opening title I think it should work really well, without seeming that out of place.
Ser Florian,
I agree with you, it makes her come across a lot less petty IMO. And explains her mental degradation.
I think that’s infintely more interesting than the nattering of a fortune teller, but each to their own. And she is petty and irrational and bordering on crazy anyway. Like a real human being.
WeirwoodTreeHugger,
I don’t understand the hate for flashbacks or the people upset that they chose this flashback over the Tourney at Harrenhal or the Tower of Joy. The latter two, especially the TOJ, would reveal far too much. It’s one thing to read the TOJ flashback, it’s another thing to show it on screen. I still think it is being saved for season 6 or 7, and will be used as the scene that reveals
Indeed, it was old when Shakespeare did it in MacBeth: but he gets the credit! (Chekhov didn’t invent his gun, either: but good catch-phrases stick in our memories.)
Well, it is appropriate. They’ve sort of moved Cersei’s development up a bit relative to what it is in the books, but Crows was the first book in which Cersei was a true protagonist; so, she should be much more central to the story this time as she is one of the characters telling it rather than someone creating circumstances for it.
What will be interesting to see is what TV audiences think of Maggy’s prediction. That is, how many of them are going to think:
Valaquen,
Fair enough. For myself I think that the prophecy, and the revelations about Cersei’s motivations, serves as a great way of contrasting the pre-Feast non-POV Cersei and the POV Cersei we get from this point on. And, it serves to make Cersei less of a “simply evil” or “power hungry” character, into one with understandable, reasonable, and quite sympathetic motivations.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
There isn’t any real flashback to Tower of Joy: if there was, then we would not have been having particular arguments since the Clinton presidency! That really is the sort of snippet that movies or TV shows will use as a prelude to a full flashback. As Martin has not gotten around to the full flashback yet, the show really couldn’t use it. It would just have been bad TV to show snippets in Season 1 and then not show the full thing until Season 6.
As for Harrenhal, that was cute, but it would not have worked on screen. In large part, it was just a device for Martin to pad Bran’s otherwise pretty dull journey north. And, of course, you are correct: showing it would give up the game.
Ser Florian,
Well, that is one of the fun things that we get in modern literature: antagonists that are also protagonists. Cersei was purely an antagonist in the first three books; she then becomes a central character in the next book.
One thing that I think that the show has done is reduce the “evil queen” aspect a little. Now, the book couldn’t help but to show this: after all, most of Cersei’s development comes through Sansa, who at that time still sees people in terms of fairy tale icons. And much of the rest comes from Tyrion, who loathes her. However, even there we get indications that Cersei truly loves her children, and that she truly believes she can be the standard-bearer for the Lannister legacy. The TV show just made that front-and-center. (I mean, how would you alter TV presentation to make the viewers see what pre-Vale Sansa sees, anyways? Redo it like My Little Ponies?)
WeirwoodTreeHugger,
I was totally thinking how MacBeth applies to Cersei’s situation as well.
“Infirm of purpose! Give me the daggers: the sleeping and the dead are but as pictures: ‘tis the eye of childhood that fears a painted devil”
I think this report needs to be more clear. Maggy the Frog is NOT related to Kermit the Frog.
Hattie “Gotobed”?
Yes, Yes to the new casting, congrats girls, but no, no to ToJ or Tourney, those need to be saved for a GoT prequel spin-off mini-series, they are way to awesome by themselves to throw into GoT, they need to be part of their own stupendous story.
Wimsey,
It’s not just that though….I think the book’s ability to have POV inside the character’s head makes a huge difference in how we perceive the major protagonists. Take for instance Tyrion’s wedding night with Sansa. On the screen they couldn’t have him naked sitting there aroused and fighting the urge to bed her nor having him openly and verbally discussing his lust for her (the actress being very young and the character even younger). So all they could do was have him be honorable with some show of hesitancy about doing the right thing. During his convo with Bronn he protested and said no he didn’t want to bed her with just a little hesitation to show some conflict. But if you’re in his thoughts, goodness knows what would have been passing through show Tyrion’s mind during that little hesitation with Bronn prodding him and suggesting he ought to take advantage of his marital “rights”. Even saints think horrible things once in a while, so taking someone like Cersei who openly acts atrociously and airing her dark thoughts makes it seem so much worse. So unless D&D decide to give Cersei soliloquies to air her evil thoughts, show Cersei will never rise to the level of “evil” queen the way she does in the books. Just my two cents….
Sue the Fury,
This. Often if you keep an eye on a CV in the months after it first says “various”, it will update to specify and narrow down which director actually shot the given the scene.
A lot of times that little tricky word “various” has led to me to insist that a character will appear in multiple eps. only to be proven wrong when the CV updates.
Dame Pasty,
the soliloquies that Book Cersei has aren’t all evil though, many of them greatly expand and flesh out her character. like “Hair Grows Back” for example…that soliloquy she has is one of my favorites in the entire series
She may look like a young Lena, but how good is she with her eyebrows?
Logistically this seems like the easiest major flashback to include, and it’s immediately relevant to the story in every way. Only three characters need to be cast, and it takes place inside a tent at night–so minimal set and minimal extra casting. And it works on several levels to enhance Cercei’s character development.
If it is done as suggested above, then it should be OK. I’m not a fan of this particular prophecy. As others have said, it reinforces all that we already know about Cersei. I never thought that it was necessary to the story. (And please, no lectures as to why it is necessary. This is purely my opinion.)
Tyrion Pimpslap,
If I was asked to name one flashback that I wanted included in the show, it wouldn’t be Maggy the Frog.
If Ghita is the terminally ill daughter of the man from the earlier casting call, I’d say she’s more likely to be
aurane waters,
Agreed but the good things she thinks either gets communicated more effectively on the show and/or we as viewers assume a character is good until they act otherwise (human nature?) but in the books once we finally do get her POV, they just made me think less of her, not better. So the good she thinks in the books does not have the same weight in counterbalancing the evil thoughts from the books as the good communicated in the show does to counterbalance the evil shown in the show….if that makes any sense. This is all predicated on the fact that I found book Cersei to be more evil and less worthy of pity (and a flatter character overall) than show Cersei–and it was precisely because of the ability to read her thoughts. Now if someone felt the opposite that book Cersei was more nuanced than show Cersei, then I could see them not agreeing with my logic.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
ToJ seems a bit pointless when they haven’t put the time into the Kingsguard. If they were to do a prequel series about Robert’s Rebellion ( I can dream!) then let them do it justice there. The only thing we really need to know about the ToJ for the current series is Ned’s promise.
The valonquar can also refer to Tommen (younger brother) who in undead form (white walker) will strangle Cersei
Dame Pasty,
Is it odd that I found Cersei more endearing once we got her PoV? ( no matter how crazy/paranoid it was at times). Out of all the KL characters he was the one I was rooting for the most! Dno’t get me wrong, she is generally vile with very very few redeeming features but her complexity and the fact she tries despite not being the most adept player makes her almost likeable!
Dame Pasty,
yeah I prefer book Cersei to show Cersei, i actually think book Cersei is more unique and fascinating. the stoic Spartan hot mom queen that’s Lena Headey’s Cersei isn’t really my thing, I prefer the wildfire book cersei who loves power even more than she loves herself
TheTouchOfFrost,
No, not at all. Aurane waters agrees with you! I’d bet quite a few people do.
aurane waters,
Fair enough. Clearly we vary on our opinions of book Cersei and how her POV affected our opinion. I know I have a problem with people who completely lack in introspection to the point of delusion (used to deal with these types of people as a probation officer). Say what you will about Jaime and Tyrion, they do try to look at themselves from other people’s viewpoints and occasionally recognize their faults (or at least knowingly accept the bad things that often happen to them as a result of their faults) whereas Cersei has no f*cks to give about her faults and tends to double down on her mistakes instead of pausing and thinking, “hmmmm, maybe I should reconsider….” People who don’t ever express doubt are not only irksome but dangerous and I just don’t find them pitiful or entertaining. All that being said, I do understand why others would find her entertaining and/or worthy of more consideration than I give her.
I agree with you. It seems to be hard to please some people. Divert from the books? Criticism. Bring in an element from the books? Criticism.
Flashbacks are something they couldn’t do in earlier seasons with smaller budgets and less certainty over how long the series would be given. If the series was only to last the one season, that ToJ flashback would’ve been one helluva tangent. If anything, doing these flashbacks opens up corridors and opportunities from now on to delve deeper into characters’ pasts.
Man, I just went over to Winter is Coming.net.
What a sad place.
It’s amazing how strong and loyal a fan community can be. I don’t know ALL the details of the mass exodus from WiC, but if there is one thing to be learned, it’s this:
Don’t Piss Geeks Off.
Hollyoak,
Hey, at least they thanked WOTW for the scoop again. I guess that’s the least they could do…
Greenjones,
What?! They gave us credit? That’s new and refreshing….. >;)
Dame Pasty,
They did for the Malko scoop too.
Strangely WOTW wasn’t mentioned in their end-of-year summary though…
You’re right. They did give credit, which is cool.
When I read it the first time it didn’t click. Instead of WotW, I saw/read/thought another site. I wonder how the folks at HBO and other marketing types took that whole kerfluffle when it blew up.
Sorry, not to bring up old, sore subjects.
Yay for young Cersei!
(I want a shirt that reads: F the Lannisters. Imagine how many laughs you’d get with that. Then again, I’m not the type to wear a shirt like that. But I’d laugh if I saw it on someone else.)
Ok. Cya.
Rygar,
“She may look like a young Lena, but how good is she with her eyebrows?”
Now you’re asking the important questions! Also, what’s her drinking capacity?
No reason why the same flashback scene can’t appear several times, in different episodes maybe revealing a little more each time
I’m really excited for this. I know we already knew Maggy was cast so I shouldn’t be, but this is extra confirmation! I wonder if it will be the opening as some have predicted, or if we will get to see Charles Dance again (as he sort of half-said he would still be in season 5, maybe as a flashback in addition to as a corpse?) I hope they do it justice, and what, if not all, of the book material will be included. I tend to agree with King Tommen and Ser Florian about what it could bring to Cersei’s character.
As for the other girl, I was thinking the same thing Annara Snow!
Jaime’s girl,
Entertainment Weekly confirmed the season would open with a flashback. So the popular theory is right: dream, then she wakes up and hears the news about her father, and BOOM —intro credits.
Luka Nieto,
Nice!! Confirmed by EW then! Thanks for the info Luka, I’m couting down to that opener 🙂
Maybe we will get a FB of her first tryst with Jaime, two 13-14 year olds, they can have DCC play that role. It’s been done before, Blue Lagoon, and of course that film caused lots of controversy.
What are you people talking about? This is a crucial flashback.
Biggest mistake D & D make is leaving out all of the other prophecies.
Tbh while I hate that GRRM was cheap enough to write this, it does make sense that it’s the first flashback on the show as it’s the only flashback that adds to the forward momentum of the plot as it
pretty much defines Cersei's season 5 journey, while things such as the Tower of Joy and the Harrenhal tourney focus on the story’s backstory and characters that are no longer in focusFlayRamsay,
because a three dimensional complex human is generally preferable to a 2D sociopath archetype…
Dame Pasty,
Besides the paranoid valonqar and “younger more beautiful” prophesies issued by MtF, I wonder if we will also get a not-so-subtle expansion of Cersei’s offhand “Everywhere in the world, they hurt little girls” comment (from S4 during her convo with RV) during the flashback?
I wonder…
Mormont,
Book Cersei is not a 2D sociopath archetype rme, she’s actually much more complex and has more layers than The Mother trope that the show is. seriously i can’t remember a scene of show Cersei that wasn’t about her damn kids. Book Cersei’s wrath, pride and ambition and reasons for her lust for power has layers and layers upon Show Cersei whose scenes are either about talking about how much she loves her kids, bitching about Loras and being a prude towards Poor Jaime.
On a side note, I don’t think that we should necessarily take from this that Cersei is
really, she is just sort of
The show already has developed that aspect of her character.
How will they handle Cersei’s mantra of
? Will she mutter it to herself? Shout while alone?
aurane waters,
None of that happens until Crowsin the books. Remember, we don’t get this fully until we get her PoV. The show actually has done more along these lines.
Moreover, she really is mildly
This is exactly why they included this flashback.
I don’t think we will ever see a TOJ or
flashback for the rest of the series however. I do not share Tyrion Pimpslap’s optimism about those events appearing in the show.
Wimsey,
The fact that she’s selfish and only cares about her goals hardly makes her a 2D character though and her mental illness is understandable IMO. Most villainous characters only care about their goals, this is not something that’s unique to Cersei. The reasons for her motivations on the other hand make her complex and fascinating, far more so than Show Cersei IMO.
A quick note on WiC. I’m glad they’ve started sourcing WoTW on stories as it helps drive some of the remnant traffic over here of the few readers who still hadn’t realized the founders moved elsewhere.
I think they’re doing as well as they could considering what they’ve got to work with. They try and do some analysis here and there and are reviewing older episodes, bringing in outside critics to give some insight. Their new editor understands TV, has strong writing experience and is a GoT fan so it’s nice to see a little bit of original content spring up in this regard.
The issue is what I had forseen from the start. WiC had been known as the show information gathering resource with a very dedicated and well-read community. That’s what has been transplanted here and it’s why the site now reads like a shell of its former self. I’m not entirely sure the fandom needs a show analysis site as much as it needs a dedicated resource for all breaking news related to the casting/filming. Since WoTW exists, it’s rendered WiC fairly irrelevant.
The one thing that has to be fairly alarming for Fansided is the number of comments that each of their articles garners. It is really rare for any of their stories to have more than 5 comments associated with them and you can pretty much expect an average of between 1 and 2 comments every time. I know that back when the divorce first occurred in the summer, the Fansided owner said they base their revenues on clicks as opposed to comments and they were fine on that end but there has to be a correlation. There is just no way they are garnering the same number of clicks they were pre-WoTW. Maybe they don’t care as much in the off-season but this is going to manifest itself once S5 ramps up. If they’re still getting less than 10 comments every time they post a story (vs 100 or more for many stories here) then they’re going to have to seriously look at the viability of the site.
Perhaps she will simply mutter it while lost in the myrish swamp?
——-
OT: GRRM is ranting and cursing the debacle that was the Cowboys win over the Lannister Lions last night. I’m afraid Wun-Wun will have to kill Ser Patrek all over again.
First of all, this prophecy is the part I hate the most from the entire books. It’s in itself a huge spoiler, it’s too straightforward and gives very little space for interpretation. She will die, her children will die…. it seems so uncharacteristic for the book. Having said that, if she is indeed present in 3 episodes it could be a very good thing. I hope it’s not only some sort of dream, but a parallel little story arc. Maybe they can make Cersei a little sympathetic after her father’s death and make people feel that her paranoia about Tyrion being in the walls is justified. And than at the end of episode 3 young Cersei does what we know she does to her friend (and maybe even Maggy) and bham, she becomes a true villain in the show as well. Will they do this? Of course not, Lena Headey can’t be that evil, she’s just misunderstood…. I’m really curious to see what they’re planning for this story arc.
aurane waters,
I find most self-centered people to be 1-dimensional (me! Me! ME!!!) myself.
Regardless, the development to which you refer is not in the first three books. tvCersei has gotten more development than bCersei through the first three stories. For example, the stuff about her seeing herself as Tywin’s heir does not come until Crows. Her behind the scenes issues with Margaery are
Not up front until then.
SerCountryFriedSteak,
I dislike the flashback, but the obvious worst decision GRRM has made was scrapping the 5-year jump post-ASOS, followed closely by splitting AFFC and ADWD by geography. The Cersei flashback is in the 6-to-10 range at most.
Lots of good discussion in the comments here, My opinion is that while flashbacks have their place in TV, they also have a much higher degree of difficulty than do most other scenes. Even a solid show like Breaking Bad had flashbacks that were pointless or missed the mark. If this particular Cersei flashback simply manages not to diminish the rest of the season, I’ll consider it a success.
Is it April yet?
The obvious worst decision GRRM ever made was planning 5-year jump in the first place. I can’t believe it took him years to understand it was a terrible idea that would never work and that you can’t just have 5 years where almost nothing happens when you’ve left things the way they were at the end of ASOS. Should have been obvious from the start.
Hey, at this point anything that inspires him to write faster is a good thing! Maybe a scene wherein Ser Patrek’s identical twin brother picks up his fallen banner, its blue star stained red with blood … and promptly gets devoured by ravenous lions? It could be just what George needs to liven up a slow section of The Winds of Winter. Or, if he’s feeling particularly fanciful, the knight can be brutally slain in single combat by Ser Odell of the House Beckham, whose banner is a golden hand on a field of blue and white, reaching out to catch a falling star. From there, anything is possible.
If George is willing to channel his rage in such a productive direction, then my Dallas Cowboys would be happy to continue providing him with further inspiration as they continue their quest for the Super Bowl. If he would rather vent his frustrations on his blog, well … then nothing much will change. At least until the legendary knight Ser Aaron of the House Rodgers (whose white sigil adorns a field of green and yellow) rains his customary fire and blood down upon the unfortunately vulnerable defense of King’s Mountain next week.
King Tommen,
I wouldn’t put it past them to steal the post episode Twitter collection post that FaB and Ax Chucker are known for
Imagine starting the season with the Maggy flashback and ending it with a Tower of joy flashback.
Jared,
Should be quite a battle! Although I’m afraid the Northern House of Cheese will prove to be a superior force to Ser Patrek’s army of young men riding cows, even if the bovine boys have deviously aligned themselves with the evil zebra wights.
🙂
Putting together the Twitter post is a monumental task, and even FaB has assistance from the amazing Rabbit. I think it would be absurd for anyone to try to copy his flair for choosing tweets and weaving them back into a narrative, with viewings over multiple time zones. It’s easier said than done. Anyone who tries to mimic Axechucker’s famous Twitter recaps will embarrass themselves, I suspect.
Here’s my season 5 titles:
S5E1: The Valonqar
S5E2: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken
S5E3: Sons of the harpy
S5E4: The Bear and the Lion
S5E5: The Broken Man
S5E6: Dead things in the water
S5E7: Bael the Bard
S5E8: Walk of Penance
S5E9: Draznak’s Pit
S5E10: For the watch
Sue the Fury,
Well said!!! That would be high treason!!!
Turncloak,
Hodor’s Bastard,
Yeah, so far Ser Aaron and company have proven to be nearly invincible in their frozen home North of the Wall. But this particular campaign, no matter where they’ve been sent, Ser Patrek’s forces have consistently demonstrated a resilience that was absent during previous Winters. They may not prevail, but I have confidence that they’ll acquit themselves well. And should the Night’s King send his minions into the fray, who knows what might happen? (The Night’s King can be Jerry Jones, the head referee, or the league’s television partners … take your pick. Not Roger Goodell, though. He’s Moon Boy. See George? This is easy.)
I don’t mean to get too far off-topic, but since we’re on this particular subject … it just so happens that Aaron Rodgers is a big Game of Thrones fan! He frequently talks about the show on social media (and has taken the usual flak from people upset when he “spoils” things like the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding by tweeting about them too soon after they happen). After Season 3, he also appeared on Rich Eisen’s podcast and they discussed their mutual love for the Khaleesi (Rodgers is also a big fan of Jorah), paid tribute to Tywin’s brilliance, and mourned Robb Stark. If you’re a big football fan, it’s pretty funny. Even if you’re not, it’s still fun to hear two people who haven’t read the books engage in discussion and speculation about the show with such good-natured enthusiasm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zE0vTrCMWg
Greenjones,
episode 9 is turning out to be quite the episode! As expected 🙂
Jared,
Hah! Who knew? Thx for that. Enjoy the melee. I’m still a Denver Dothraki fan even though they were massacred last year. A man can dream of revenge!
Anyone seen or know anything about this? Major spoilers by the way.
Steve,
Perhaps but as Cersei puts it, “hair grows back.”
Greenjones,
True. To be honest, I can’t see much difference in the picture they posted to how it was, but who knows.
Sue the Fury,
WHEW! The Twitter post is one of my favorite items. FaB and Rabbit and their minions are gods! It never fails to make me laugh out loud.
I’m a fan of this prophecy. As a mom myself, I found myself waaay too sympathetic toward Cersei’s actions (Ever been in the stands at a children’s sporting event? There’s plenty of mommy crazy in the real world.) With the reveal of her early sociopathic actions, we get to see all of those mama lion moments in a whole new light. It sure made me look twice at some of the soccer moms around me at the time! 😉
C’mon trailer!
Uhhh, so this is interesting…..
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/business/game-of-thrones-takes-a-trailer-of-its-new-season-to-imax.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias:r,{%222%22:%22RI:18%22}&_r=0
King Tommen,
Wow! That is interesting. I would certainly go if it was screened at theaters in the area.
King Tommen,
Well how about that.
A pity that the NYTimes gets to break that story when they hate the show.
I would imagine to preserve the marketing of that event, we won’t see the trailer online until after that date. So set your calendars for the end of January.
Also, it would be pretty amazing to see S4E9 in IMAX on the big screen.
T.O.T.A.L.L.Y!
Wow, that would be cool. And I was getting hyped for the Feb 17 S4 Bluray release.
This is breaking everywhere: http://insidetv.ew.com/2015/01/06/game-of-thrones-imax/
I agree: S4E9 would be amazing in IMAX. Information on theaters and show times will supposedly be available later this week.
My google search tells me that Variety broke the IMAX news 8 hours ago? Surely that must be a mistake
Steve,
He really didn’t get much cut off. I imagine it will be back to his normal length in 6 months or so when they start filming the next season.
And the IMAX thing is interesting, I’d love to get a chance to go see it. Also I guess that might mean we won’t get a trailer until then?
Steve,
I don’t see much of a difference. Filming for season 6 wouldn’t start until July anyway. That is 7 months. His hair could grow several inches in that time.
I have always been a big fan of the decision to not include flashbacks and limit the visions and dreams.
In the books the limited third person is very effective in that not having multiple points of view or explanations of historical events a character could not have learned from a book or story locks you into one perspective and allows for unreliable narrators. This way you don’t have much more information than the character and can empathize better with their decisions given the small slice of the story they have.
Ironically in the show staying out of the characters heads has the same effect. With the camera locked in the third person documentary style it keeps the viewers perspective limited. You are only seeing what a character or fly on the wall would see. We only know what other characters are thinking and feeling by what they say and show on their faces, which could be lies. Could you imagine the show with voice over? Or jumping back to the past at critical moments to hit you over the head with the emotional or plot point that sets up the climax. aka. narration by editor. At least GoT saves those ham handed tactics for the “previously on” segment, which I don’t watch.
Leaving the story fixed in the present also gives it a more realistic, real time feel and helps the pacing. This is why I’m hoping this example will be a dream sequence that doesn’t reoccur. The style they have set up should only show something like this when a character is experiencing a dream or vision in the present moment, not a true flashback. If they do eventually show scenes of Robert’s Rebellion or the ToJ I hope it is from the perspective of a certain character in the present having visions of the past and not the intrusion of some god-like narrator/editor showing the viewer some important morsel of information. That style worked on LOST but would be totally out of place on GoT.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4154724/?ref_=tt_cl_t5
Celina Sinden looks like a Lena Headey 😛
Another youngster who’s been filming for S5: Aifric O’Donnell
Maester_Blaster,
Documentary style? Not sure that’s right.
Still I agree wholeheartedly that voice overs etc would be terrible, but I would argue flashbacks and dream sequences are quite different. They can be done incredibly tastefully and can work as a plot device where nothing else would suffice. I believe this is a case in point. Cersei’s character on the show until now has been wonderfully drawn by Lena Headey, but the material has also been a little mono-thematic. She has been the heel to Tyrion and Sansa. These flashbacks in the book go along way to making us pity Cersei, as opposed to merely disliking her as a hateful character.
We don’t have the ‘Previously On…’ in the UK thankfully. I don’t know why US TV patronises viewers in this way. People have memories! I don’t know, maybe some people enjoy the recap, but I would find it unnecessary and irritating.
Doesn’t surprise me that much as Cersei’s prophecy is also unraveled only bit by bit in AFFC. That rumor of a “Jaime wakes from a nightmare” scene makes me also hope for Jaime’s scene with Joanna or other prophetic dreams.
The vision(s) getting clearer was the teaser right?
Sorry for the double, but what the hell do you haters find so incredibel about a little girl being really scared by some pissed of Magi? You don’t like the self-fullfilling part of prophecies? Well, sucks to be you, I guess.
I for one cant wait to see the scene unfold and am quite glad they decided to include this while not doing events from Robert’s rebellion.
Count me as one of those who loves this prophecy, particularly how goddamned eerie it is, and also because we have been conditioned by GRRM not to necessarily trust what is foretold by various people in the course of the books.
–She will marry the king, not the prince. Given she was a Lannister and promised to *somebody* this doesn’t strike as all that amazing a bit of predictive powers.
–3 children for her, 16 for him. Is she truly focused on this? Or has she buried it somewhere in the recesses?
–The queen who rises up. Now we’ve gotten her attention, methinks. That, and Maggie’s additional pronouncement about the gold shrouds in a sense has awoken Cersei’s fears about losing her children in a way that didn’t exist before. And hearing about it only after Joffrey’s death, and at a time when Myrcella is put in peril, underscores this. I can see where some would see this as a cheap narrative trick, but I don’t.
Bogden,
Thanks. Adding it to the wiki.
So many children this season, right?
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah, what he really wanted to do was get it cut very short. (The women to whom he told this squealed “No!”) If he doesn’t cut it between now and next summer, it will be perfect Jon Snow length again.
What do you mean by “trust?” The prophecies/foretellings we have gotten have always been true. However, they always are ironic. Everything in the prophecies implies on thing but means another. Cersei misunderstood who the prince was. She couldn’t work out what Maggy meant when Cersei got a count of children. She certainly has misidentified the Valonqur.
The rest will be Macbethian: crucial parts almost certainly will happen because Cersei falls for the apparent meaning rather than the actual meaning. Of course, one of the things that the TV show already has developed and that probably will get even more development is that Cersei Lannister is particularly susceptible to irony: she jumps to obvious interpretations and then never considers alternative explanations.
Turncloak,
5.1 – Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch
5.2 – The Sun and Spear
5.3 – Men of Stone
5.4 – The Faith Militant
5.5 – Sons of the Harpy
5.6 – Queenmaker
5.7 – Cat of the Canals
5.8 – Lady of the Vale
5.9 – The Pit
5.10 – Walk of Shame
I rather enjoyed LF’s “Climb” montage & voice over during S3. If done sparingly and surprisingly, I think flashbacks and dreams would be quite effective in GoT. I’m glad they are including this flashback (especially as a possible cold open). It is a worthwhile risk that could only enhance Cersei’s intense storyline in S5.
Hodor’s Bastard,
That isn’t quite the same thing as what Maester_Blaster is referring. The “chaos is a ladder” monologue was just took the dialogue from one scene and showed a montage of events happening more or less concurrently that fit with that. Maester_Blaster is referring to cases where a character narrates the events that we see. That sometimes works if you have a single protagonist but even then it’s dodgy.
Kauffman’s film Adaptation is amusing to watch on this score. The film tells a story about adaptation in all of it’s meanings: someone trying to adapt a book about the orchids (which includes discussion of their adaptations!) while trying himself to adapt to changing scriptwriting requirements around him. One of the refrains is never use voice-over narration: constantly given in the voice-over narration by the main character (played by Nicholas Cage).
(That film really is a must see for people interested in what it takes to adapt a book to a movie. In this case, the story in the movie arose from the fact Kauffman could find not story in the book itself to adapt: so, that inspired him to create a story about adaptation!)
Luka Nieto,
A couple more I don’t see on the wiki: Garry Mountaine and Jack Hickey
Edit: Actors that is, not children!
Thou art lucky oh Rygar, that I am having problems with my broadband connection today (I’m getting by intermittently using a mobile modem (called a dongle in the UK though I’m hesitant to use that word with you). Anyway, somebody had posted a link to a YouTube video with a song “I’m a troll-de-roll” and I was tempted to link it here for you. However, it’s taking me all my time to upload the transcripts I type today so a video would take forever – and I must admit I am not sure of the law of copyright on linking YouTube videos.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I think there is already a tie between her statement ‘they hurt little girls everywhere’ and
This tie-in that seems obvious to me, however, presumes that the average Unsullied viewer watches the show with the intensity and attention to detail that I do and I suspect that is not the case. So on second thought, they probably will make a tie in and it will be a bludgeon instead of the subtle blow I would prefer.
aurane waters,
But don’t you think it’s clear on the show that no matter how much she talks about it being “for her kids” it really isn’t? It’s easier to see in the books that it isn’t just for the kids but I think the real answer is in the show too. Or do you think viewers believe her?
Wimsey,
OT but have you seen Outlander? How do you feel they’ve handled the voice-over?
Wimsey,
I wasn’t arguing if MB’s flashback/prophesy point was valid or not, just that a voice over could be (and has been) used effectively in GoT. Regarding the rest of his/her comment, I generally disagree…flashbacks can be used quite effectively. I loved the Bran/Jojen images across various episodes as well (but do they represent history or the future?). I hope they continue with that. They are “thinkers”.
One could argue that the exposition/sexposition in the show is a form of recall, which could have been presented in flashback or dream sequences.
[I actually thought MB’s “previously on” comment was excellent…they do provide a default form of video flashback within the context of events depicted in the series]
Adaptation (and any CK-written film) is splendidly original. ESotSM is one of my favorite films. I often wish for that treatment for myself.
One thing I’ve been meaning to ask you…What do think of wonderfully-effective movies that don’t have “traditional” protagonists/antagonists…like Pulp Fiction, Crash, Babel and 20 Bucks (with an inanimate protagonist, as the film followed the life of a $20 bill)? Those films probably drive you crazy. 🙂
Dame Pasty,
I appreciate your response greatly. I guess I was wondering if the flashback/dream scene in question would further explore or highlight Cersei’s claim/desire to be a female Tywin,
I am quite intrigued by this scene.
Pulp Fiction, Crash and Babel all have very traditional protagonists. Crash struck me as a disjointed story and somewhat overrated, but I appreciated with at they were trying to do with it. Pulp Fiction was a hoot and actually a cool exercise in how to do cinematic narratives with multiple protagonists. In particular, the “overlapping” cinematic narrative is not something you see in too many films. Babel did that, too, if I recall. (Love Actually is another movie that wrestles with the multi-protagonist issue, and I think that there is some narrative overlap there.)
To some degree, these films also play the game of having Protagonist A by Protagonist B’s Antagonist in one or more cases. That is less traditional, but that’s been done since the 1960’s at least, so it’s hardly too novel either.
Out of curiosity, why do the many protagonists in these films strike you as “non-traditional?” What is a “traditional” protagonist, anyway? It seems to me that the scope of characters that authors have used for protagonists has been as broad as the scope of humanity that people have comprehended over the years.
I’ve never seen 20 Bucks: that sounds interesting.
And you are correct about the sexposition being another useful tool. If The Sopranos didn’t invent it, then they perfected it. The tough part about dialog in film and TV is that no matter how “good” it is, length makes it worse. Brevity, souls, wit and all of that. Fitting exposition on to sex scenes also works because we’ve all been through “pillow talk”: you just have the weirdest damn conversations there (in retrospect). If you think about it, however, it’s just a new variation on the “witty banter” during fight scenes: a lot of really good character development actually gets into those scenes, but because punches are being thrown, it doesn’t drag.
Dame Pasty,
If you mean this year’s (or last year’s) “Outlander”, then, no I have not seen it yet. I have a 6-year old, so I’m slow to see films these days….
(There was another film sometime in the last 7 years called Outlander that featured Vikings and Aliens, in which the man was more monstrous than the monster. I seem to recall it being gratuitous fun; however, the Oscars didn’t snub it….)
I keep reading comments about
Now, Cersei’s basic comprehension of reality is pretty crappy: but that’s because she’s a borderline sociopath, or (in colloquial terms) a real jerk.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Hmmmm, “female Tywin”….yes, it will/would be fascinating. I think with Tywin’s death and the convo’s that will naturally occur as a result of the funeral that D&D will have plenty more opportunities to make her desire abundantly clear, in addition to the flashback, so that when she
The scene that intrigues me the most, and which is tied in with the character development you’ve brought up is
I love all of you but you’re pretty bad at guessing episode names. D&D do resort to the literal when they have to “Watches on the Wall”, “Baelor” but really really prefer symbolic stuff when they can – “The Children” being a great example since it works on several levels.
Walk of Shame is never ever going to be a title. Although I think “The Moutain and the Viper” was the worst name ever since it does just that and gives the plot away – so maybe I’m just an idiot.
“For the Watch” is a great name but I highly doubt that’s happening this season now.
Wimsey,
I was referring to Outlander TV show on Starz where they used voiceover heavily in the first half of season 1, which I thought was necessary. The second half is coming out in April and they’ve backed off on it, thankfully because it was becoming a bit much, but we’ll have to see going forward. I think if they don’t back it out almost entirely as the series proceeds, they’ll lose audience and critics, who have loved the show so far.
In regards to Cersei’s
Dame Pasty,
I really hope many of your thoughts come to fruition
Btw, are you going to do your “derangedinarizona” reviews again for S5?
House Ray,
“Mhysa” was the greatest GoT episode name, but sadly it did not live up to its metaphorical potential. :/
Oh, per your previous responses over the past month or so, I had the impression that you sought traditional protag/antag depictions in film/books. Perhaps, due to lack of inflection, I misinterpreted some of your words. But you seem to be “opening up” a bit lately. 🙂 I found that the films mentioned didn’t have “traditional’ protags, just a lot of supporting characters providing input to a greater idea. When PF, Crash, & Babel came out, I recall several critical reviews that explored the qualities of films without “traditional protag/antag” development, which I found fascinating. Although the idea has been around for decades, recent works seem to be exploring that concept more, or using an inanimate object, like a gun or a piece of currency, as the “main character.”
Cheers!
Annara Snow,
Disagree. The five years were the equivalent of a training montage. The journey isn’t always as fun as the destination.
Dame Pasty,
The
. In 20:20 hindsight, it explains a lot of her actions before then. Those just get masked because the characters describing her do not understand that.
I think that a distinction between “deluded” and “delusional” is appropriate here. We have come to use “deluded” for ignorant or misinformed, when it once meant misinformed because of imagined things. The former seems to be the case here: it is misperception and lack of imagination or knowledge that play the big role, not things imagined to be true.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Ah, ok, I see what you mean. Well, that is the older style, so I guess that it is traditional in that sense. Films and TV were slower to do this than literature was, so I can see why they called it traditional. (The “new kid on the block” has been around for a while, though!)
Personally, I prefer the”new” style. I think that it serves GRRM and B&W quite well, too. It is not just that (say) Protagonist Tyrion is Antagonist Tyrion for Protagonist Cersei: but to a big degree all of the major character’ biggest enemies are themselves! Cersei is like that: the person she is undermines the person she believes herself to be all the time.
I think that might be what I like most about these stories.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I’m torn. They are so time consuming that hubby doesn’t want me to do them and I want to keep him happy. But I enjoyed doing them. So the answer is maybe, if I can find way to produce them more efficiently. Maybe focus more on fewer items…less scripted (because I spend a day or two just writing the scripts). Any advice to give on this front?
Hodor’s Bastard,
If you want to go even further back you could claim The Canterbury Tales was an early prototype for that type of story-telling.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Oh yeah indeed. But that is not happening on the show. I have an outstanding bet – my $200 to your $100 that character is never on the show.
aurane waters,
Im with you, she looks too “cute” not sinister enough. But this is coming from someone who only watches the show, and dont know what she was like as a child.
Dame Pasty,
The only advice I will give to a fine woman as yourself is “family first.” I failed on that front five years ago, with poor decisions, and now my X is a Bolton.
Hodor’s Bastard,
Yikes, that’s frightening! But I hear ya….Like I said, if I can find a way to do it quickly, I will. Thanks!
TheTouchOfFrost,
Totally agree. Thx for the reminder.
House Ray,
Totally agree. Thx for the reminder.
On a side note, do you think that GRRM will ever give us that Prophecy that got this whole shebang rolling in the first place? We get only summaries of interpretations in the books.
Obviously, if it is never in the books, then it almost certainly won’t be in the show. If it is, then this scene will give us an idea of how B&W are apt to handle these things.
Wimsey,
I assume you are referencing the wonderful essay by Locke and associated discussion from a few weeks ago, which this current thread extends. GRRM will probably elaborate upon it in an upcoming Cersei PoV chapter (maybe he even stressed it to D&D, which is the reason why we are going to view it) or he will debunk it outright and we will all realize that MtF was an abusive witch.
Or are you truly referencing the “whole shebang”? Azor Ahai’s song of Ice and Fire?
An interesting tidbit:
In the end, they chose not to do that.
Dame Pasty, and Wimsey
Interesting points regarding Cersei’s mental state. I would have to agree with some of the other comments and say that it is not depression from which C is suffering. She is, as you say, borderline sociopath (and jerk), and of course a paranoid alcoholic. The combination of these things seem to be both cause and symptom of the restrictiveness of the patriarchal world she exists in.
What next for her? I think the decision to include flashbacks hint at where Book Cersei will be headed… I expect things to get more and more chaotic and I relish the forthcoming character development. Love reading Cersei, love watching Headey.
When I saw her picture before I read the posting I thought great they finally cast vala. I agree of all the flashbacks I would have loved to see Ceseri is last. Her story about the old woman can be told and one scene we don’t need several flashbacks. I hope this doesn’t mean either Dany or Margerila get the throne in the end because I don’t like the Tyrells.I like Dany but she can’t have kids so what happens after she dies. Giving Dany the throne is just a temporary fix.
Seems Tywin will be in the flashback too!
http://www.viralshack.com/tywin-lannister-to-appear-in-season-5/
thremnir,
That’s an old interview from September… it was already reported on this site. Nothing points to Tywin being on the flashback (though it could be possible, of course.) But honestly, the most obvious possibility is… well, that he’ll “play” Tywin’s corpse at the funeral.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I thought Wimsey was referring to the prophecy of TPtwP
Bogden,
The Garry Mountaine That Rides!
Waxfoot,
Haha I thought that too when I saw the name 🙂
Spoilers
The first rule of cinematic storytelling is: Show, don’t Tell. If B&W think that it really is important to the story (and I would agree with them: this develops Cersei a lot), then the viewers need to see it to understand it.
Salty Dornishman,
Yeah, that is the one! That might be the second one to which Hodor’s Bastard is referring, too.
Of course, by now it is quite possible that GRRM himself won’t include it. It doesn’t actually need to be in the books, and although I like having my curiosity sated, I would tell GRRM to stick to what needs to be done at this point. (Maybe we’ll actually get to read the final book that way….)
Waxfoot,
Alcoholism and depression often go hand-in-hand. If I recall, Jaime notes more than once that Cersei starts drinking more and more before he leaves Kings Landing in Crows. Stress and depression also go hand-in-hand, and Cersei certainly is stressed-out. Regardless, it might be semantic: she’s pretty miserable, she’s drinking too much, and she’s under a ton of pressure. After all, her allies are all idiots, her enemies are up to all sorts of clever schemes, and nobody appreciates just what a genius she is as she shows them just how easy it is for Tywin’s Daughter to run Westeros.
Wimsey,
Waxfoot,
Just wanted to point out that Sociopaths do not, in general, suffer from depression….at least not the kind of depression that non-sociopaths do. They may feel bad that they aren’t achieving their goals in their career or able to manipulate people successfully but they don’t feel guilt or shame–both of which are pretty essential in the clinically depressed psyche. They do, of course, feel anxiety and stress but those are not part and parcel of depression. Anxiety and stress can vary in different stages of depression as well as vary from person to person. Some depressives never experience anxiety at all and some are consumed with it. In one stage a depressive can’t feel anything at all because they’ve reached a state of catatonia, with a severely depressed emotional affect, but this shouldn’t be considered the same as a sociopath who can’t feel real love or joy or pain.
What pain Cersei does express appears to be for all the wrong reasons. She’s anxious and stressed because she faces so much opposition but because of her lack of introspection, objectivity and empathy she can’t understand that her own behavior is often causing that opposition–she is incapable of seeing that there are other avenues she can take.
I know we often talk about her loving her children and that being her one and only redeeming factor but I think it matters why we love our children and with Cersei, I’m not sure it’s about maternal feeling. Or at least not enough maternal feeling to matter. For example, if she really loved Joffrey she’d have reeled him in and taught him right from wrong from the get-go but she saw him instead as an extension of her power and let him have free rein until, to her surprise, she could no longer control him (she basically admitted this on the show). A parent that truly loves their child disciplines them (not talking corporal punishment here, just properly setting boundaries and enforcing those). Then look at her relationship with Jaime–that interaction alone screams sociopath. So Cersei talks a good game about love and her depression-like symptoms are there but that doesn’t mean she actually loves anyone or that she is actually depressed.
In regards her drinking, it’s a symptom not a cause or at least it started out that way. It’s not uncommon for those experiencing stress and anxiety to self-medicate and sociopaths are known to use drinking and drugs as an excuse for bad behavior. I do think that when she started drinking it was a rebellion of sorts but she got caught in the trap because of her arrogance. I.e., she saw Robert drinking it up and acting like an ass and she was jealous–he could get his freak on and no one said a thing but she knew if she did they’d have her hide. As she gains more power, she starts to test those social boundaries by drinking and behaving less than admirably–remember her scene in the Keep with Sansa during the Battle of Blackwater–she let her mask down because of the alcohol and we saw who she really was inside. We saw her playing with Sansa like a cat with a wee mouse and enjoying Sansa’s discomfort and revulsion. In the books we know she starts
and she was probably telling herself the whole time, ‘I’m better than Robert was so I can do what he couldn’t, stay in control of the drinking’. But the problem with alcohol for self-medication and sociopathic cathartic release is that it starts to create bad situations that feed into the initial anxiety and stress. It also reduces her ability to fool others because her mask is more often off than on. It’s a wonderful catch-22 that addiction creates that Cersei will be unable to see her way out of precisely because she is a sociopath and can’t see herself in any objective fashion.
I speak with some authority on this as I have lived with clinical depression since I was very young and I have dealt with alcoholics and drug addicts in my professional career. Again, with the caveat that I’m not a psychologist, psychiatrist or counselor of any kind. Just my opinion for what it is worth.
Wimsey,
Good morning, W! Thx for the clarification from you and SD. Perhaps a question like “TPtwP” is better served in the Forum area, but I’ll do my best to hijack this thread further with crackpot, with emphasis on both “crack” and “pot”, which this topic requires.
So you ask of the prophecy of the rebirth of Azor Ahai (prince that was promised) and his/her “song of Ice and Fire”? Do you have 3 hours? As you know, GRRM has given us a few options. I’ll summarize my wanker opinions below:
1) AA = Dany: Mad King’s daughter. A mixup between “prince” and “princess” (because Valyrian is gender neutral) allows her to be included. But where is her “ice”? Hair and eyes consistent. [argument ensues]
2a) AA = Aegon: Rhaegar/Elia’s son. Varys/JonCon got him out of KL and over to Essos. But where is his “ice”? Hair and eyes consistent. Ashara is Septa Lemore, godmother. [feisty argument ensues]
2b) AA = Aegon; Rhaegar/Ashara’s son. Ashara never jumped. Varys/JonCon got him over to Essos. But where is his “ice”? Hair and eyes consistent. Ashara is Septa Lemore, mother. [feisty argument ensues]
3) AA = Jon: Rhaegar/Lyanna’s son. “Fire” and “ice” covered. Hair and eyes inconsistent, implying Stark genes dominates Targ genes (and fire resistance problems). [cheers for the obvious ensue]
4) AA = Darkstar: The Dayne’s have Dawn/Lightbringer (see Turncloak); he is a possible descendant of Nymeria. But where is his “ice”? Ashara is key. Hair and eyes consistent. [arguments and fisticuffs ensue]
5) [CrackPot] Jon/Aegon = AA: Almost same age. Lyanna’s child died with her; she was imprisoned with Aegon at ToJ (guarded by 3 KG) because Rhaegar wanted him out of KL (fearing the worst). Ned and HR and AD know, took the baby as Ned’s own. Please note that Elia and Lyanna had the same dark haircolor. This also implies that Ashara/Ned had a kid (fAegon is a Stark!), who she took to Essos to raise as her own (she is SL), with JonCon in tow. Varys/Illyrio have fooled JonCon. [tomatoes thrown and vile cursing begins]
Btw, I hate the fact that Lyanna died when she was only 16. Too young for all this stuff, including Laughing Tree, Rhaegar, and ToJ, to occur. But R+L is the only “ice & fire” clean fit.
Can you imagine Cersei having a shot at Rhaegar (as Tywin had hoped)?
I fear your response….. 😉
Hodor’s Bastard,
heh, you might find it more disappointing than scary! No, I was wondering if we were going to read the whole thing. We know that the people who read it puzzled over what the prophecy meant: to whom it referred, etc. That’s hardly surprising: all good prophecies are dripping with irony, after all.
We’ve read the soothsaying for Cersei, so we can consider it’s words. In the Harry Potter series, we got the whole prophecy that got Voldemort to go after Harry as an infant. In Macbeth, we get the whole prophecy to mull over. For a while, I thought that we would get the same thing here. However, I do not think that we will at this point.
Obviously, it’s not necessary, and at this point, it might even be pointless to learn the details. I’m not sure who in the series could deliver it. Still, the fanboy wants to know!
(The only real vehicle I can see for it now is Melisandre: at some point, she has to understand that she misinterpreted the same or some closely related prophecy.)
As for the ages, well, 16 in that world is more like 26 in our world. Not having adolescence sort of speeds life along.
Dame Pasty,
Thanks for your thoughts, very interesting indeed. What you’re saying feels right.