Watchers on the Wall Awards Season 8: Best Dramatic Scene – Preliminary Round

WOTW AWARDS EASON 8

We’ve got a huge category for you all this week in the Watchers on the Wall Awards preliminaries: Best Dramatic Scene. If there’s anything Game of Thrones know how to bring on every week, it’s drama, so we have dozens of nominees in our prelim category for you all to peruse and narrow down.

What defines the best in drama? Well that’s up to you. There may be tears, there may be action, there may be love, there may be blood. Whatever it is, it’s the best of the best in season 8. And there can be only five that make it to the final round!

Please choose your five favorites from the preliminary poll. The ground rules: Select up to FIVE nominees from the poll. You can choose fewer if you like, but you can’t choose more than 5. (Visit the initial WotW Awards post for a complete explanation of the rules and process.)

At the end of one week (Sunday 09/14/19 at 12PM Eastern Time), whichever five scenes have the most votes will continue on to the finals. The results of the poll will be revealed when it’s time to choose the winner of Best Dramatic Scene in a few weeks.

The list of nominations, provided by our readers, is very long, so make sure to read through to the very end before making your final five selections!

134 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Hodor!

      Wow, how do I wade through that list? its overwhelming. So many excellent moments, this is going to take some time….

      Wonder if I separate the different characters and look at all of the scenes from one, and choose from there, then go to the next one. Or just go with my gut and choose what really moved me

        Quote  Reply

    2. ash,

      I think going with the gut is the most honest way to do it. There are a lot of great scenes but in the end, you know instinctively what scenes truly moved you to tears or stuck with you long after they aired, the most.

        Quote  Reply

    3. Going through this long list, the one that still moved me more than any other scene was Brienne filling in Jaime’s pages in the Book of Brothers.

        Quote  Reply

    4. This was a hard choice!!

      In the end, I went with five of the scenes that really got me in the gut – Sam and Jon’s reunion with the parentage reveal, Jaime knighting Brienne, the funeral post Battle of Winterfell, Jon killing Daenerys and the parting of the Starks.

        Quote  Reply

    5. Arya running through kings landing–cried during this scene,for me it summed up the fate of the innocent civilians going through war, I forgot about the main characters in second half of this episode. beautifully shot.

      Jenny of the oldstone–one of the most memorable scenes of the season, I wish what followed it could be as memorable.

      Sequence of long night as Arya stabs the night king–gives me goosebumps every single time I watch it. I know many people don’t like it but the way it happened is somehow justified in my mind.

      Brienne filling the book of brothers–this scene concluded Jaime’s arc IMO.

      Missandei’s execution–poor innocent Missandei, I was waiting for her to be saved until the very last moment.

      my other top picks that I considered voting for: Danny hears the bells but lays waste on KL- Jon killing Danny- the Ending montage showing the fate of the three Starks

        Quote  Reply

    6. 1. Jenny of Oldstones
      2. Danerys hears the bells.
      3. The climatic sequence of the Long Night
      4. Tyrion and Varys discuss treason
      5. Tyrion tries to persuade Jon into killing Danerys.

        Quote  Reply

    7. So difficult, although I generally discounted many of the death scenes as I kind of tied them with the Deaths category. In the end, I went for the knighting, Varys’ execution (“Goodbye old friend” and that look when he’s touched), the climax of The Long Night, Cleganebowl (not the ending I wanted for it but an incredible image and a tragically fitting end nonetheless, the opening image of the dragon in the background too) and Tyrion saying goodbye to Jaime (possibly the most heartbreaking scene of S8 for me, as you just knew deep down this was it for them regardless of exactly what happened next, ‘You were the only one who didn’t treat me like a monster’ ).

        Quote  Reply

    8. 1. Daenerys burns KL

      2. The climactic sequence at the end of The Long Night, from Sansa and Tyrion in the crypt until Melisandre’s death

      3. Cersei and Jaime’s reunion and death as the world falls apart

      4. Jenny of Oldstones

      5. Tyrion convincing Jon to kill Daenerys

        Quote  Reply

    9. LadyGoodman,

      Ackkkkkk! I can’t decide either! Too many qualifiers to narrow it down to just five.
      So far, only one sure selection…

      🔘 Arya runs through the battle of KL and tries to save a woman and her child

      🔘 Melisandre prays to the LoL to ignite trenches as wights close in

      🔘 In the Long Night, chased by wights, Beric and Sandor help Arya

      ☑️ Sandor encourages Arya to forget vengeance and they say goodbye ✅

      🔘 Arya interrogates and seduces Gendry

      🔘 With wights swarming, Sandor is incapacitated until he sees Arya in peril

      ✖️Arya, Beric and the Hound meet on the battlements
      (Nominated in Funniest Scene?)

      🔘 Arya finds Melisandre again in the middle of the battle.

      ❓Gendry proposes and Arya gently turns him down aka The Big ‘Ship runs aground

      🔘 Arya and the Hound hit the road again

      🔘 Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away.

      🔘 Arya is reunited with Gendry and Sandor in the forge.

      ______
      Disclaimer: Yes, I know, there’s an obvious common theme in my qualifiers.
      👸🏻🗡

        Quote  Reply

    10. That was really hard to pick just 5 of those!

      1) Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime (in the tent where Jaime is held captive)
      My out of the box choice. I came to appreciate the amazing acting in this scene even more during my re-watch of season 8. This is the type of scene that made GOT a great series.

      2) Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away
      Ingrained in my memory forever. Such a beautiful artistic shot. Thank you Sapo. And some even say the Hound’s spirit was in the horse to help Arya one final time.

      3) Brienne fills in Jaime’s pages in the Book of Brothers
      (I was hoping this would happen for many years)

      4) The people in Winterfell ready for battle to the sound of “Jenny of Oldstones”
      Sansa’s look at Theon while sipping soup…… Arya’s cold stare while still under the covers with Gendry as she readies to face the God of Death

      5) Arya and Jon’s reunion at the Godswood
      Maybe this should be higher, but definitely one of my top 5 dramatic moments.

        Quote  Reply

    11. The knighting of Brienne of Tarth by Jamie Lannister

      The people in Winterfell ready for battle to the sound of “Jenny of Oldstones”

      the climactic sequence of “The Long Night” – Theon and Jorah fall, and Arya kills the Night King

      Jon reveals his heritage to Daenerys, in the crypts

      A captive Tyrion tries to persuade Jon to kill Daenerys

      sigh…..Im glad we did the death category first, helped me weed some out..Funny considering how many problems so many of us here had with the last season, look at the multitude of choices we have

        Quote  Reply

    12. Filter is coming. First step, eliminate everything that I wasn’t really moved excited with. (Which will delete not much), Then eliminate and eliminate which I felt least with till I’m stuck with around 10/15 choices. Then it’s choosing my favorites.

      Give me good fortune, in these choices to come.

        Quote  Reply

    13. I decided to devide it per episode once I got 31 choices.
      Episode 1: 3 moments
      Episode 2: 4 moments
      Episode 3: 5 moments
      Episode 4: 3 moments
      Episode 5: 7 moments
      Episode 6: 9 moments

      No surpise episode 5 and 6 does so well with me, but not 4. Now the rest of the elimination can begin.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Choosing some over other’s really hurts. I needed to eliminate some scenes which I liked very much and which I could keep because I liked others better.
      I’m at 5 scenes from the first 3 episodes. 5 from episode 5 and 5 from episode 6. And 4 is already out. No scene is going to get into my top 5 from that episode. Now the hard part begins.

      My choices till now which I sort just per when you saw them this season:
      Sam learns that Dany executed his father and brother
      The knighting of Brienne of Tarth by Jamie Lannister
      The people in Winterfell ready for battle to the sound of “Jenny of Oldstones”
      The climactic sequence of “The Long Night” – Theon and Jorah fall, and Arya kills the Night King
      Melisandre dies after the battle for Winterfell
      Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime
      Daenerys hears the bells and lays waste to King’s Landing while Jon stops a Northerner attacking a woman
      Arya runs through the battle of King’s Landing and tries to save a woman and her child
      Jaime and Cersei Lannister are reunited before dying in each other’s arms
      Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away
      Tyrion finds the bodies of his siblings
      A captive Tyrion tries to persuade Jon to kill Daenerys
      Jon kills Daenerys and Drogon destroys the Iron Throne
      Brienne fills in Jaime’s pages in the Book of Brothers
      Jon, Sansa, and Arya’s final fates are revealed at the end of the Iron Throne

      I really can’t choose. It’s a bit choosing between A nice coup of Italian Ice cream, a nice peace of apple pie or the best hazlenut cream pie from the netherlands. It all depends on the moment. But it seems I need to choose.

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    15. 15. A captive Tyrion tries to persuade Jon to kill Daenerys.
      Amazing scene. In which Tyrion capture Dany and wording Dany’s followers better than I ever could. He phrased my thoughts about her character perfectly. An amazing scene that captured the essence of the amazing Daenerys Targaryen and what made her undoing.
      14. Sam learns that Dany executed his father and brother.
      The acting was top notch, from both John Bradley and Emilia Clarke. It was a scene that reminded us of what happened last season, and how that effected Sam. Which resulted into the rollercoaster that we saw with Danereys character in the last season.
      13. Tyrion finds the bodies of his siblings.
      For me an amazing scene. We all hated Cersei for who she was. A hatefull woman. But here we saw Tyrion not only mourne his beloved brother, but also his sister who wanted him death multiple times. And even after that all Tyrion loved his sister.
      12. Jon kills Daenerys and Drogon destroys the Iron Throne.
      Everything lead to this moment, and for me it delivered. It’s a hard breaking moment where we finally saw a Dany who was free. She talked without emotional boundaries to Jon. She trusted him fully. But that also made Jon see who Dany really was and what will happen if she survives. Where Dany wanted to liberate the world of Tyrants by a firm hand, Jon liberated the world of that ever happening.
      11. Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime.
      Their brotherly bound comes full circle here. It’s an end of one of the best bounds of the show. And I think this was the first time Tyrion was ready to die if that needed to happen for the safety of others.

        Quote  Reply

    16. 10. Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away
      I love this scene, don’t know why. It felt like Arya finally embraced life again here.
      9. Daenerys hears the bells and lays waste to King’s Landing while Jon stops a Northerner attacking a woman.
      The change in Dany was perfectly acted by Emilia in that moment. And seeing Jon attacking his own men and felt betrayed by them was really heartbreaking. It was one of the most dramatic moments of the show for me.
      8. The climactic sequence of “The Long Night” – Theon and Jorah fall, and Arya kills the Night King
      That sequence was just brilliant. The music, acting, directing, writing everything. One of the best of the whole show.
      7. Melisandre dies after the battle for Winterfell. So many great scenes this season. So this will not make my top 5. But if it’s in, it deserves it fully. I liked how Mel changed from the most hated of the show to the most beloved one. And at the end she was finally at peace.
      6. Arya runs through the battle of King’s Landing and tries to save a woman and her child.
      This scene had my heartrate at full speed. The horror that happened before Arya’s eye was perfectly put on screen. And amazingly acted by Maissie. But for me it just missed out on my top 5.

        Quote  Reply

    17. 5. Jon, Sansa, and Arya’s final fates are revealed at the end of the Iron Throne.
      I found their end sequence on of the best of the whole show. It gave a perfect send-off to all the Starks. With a perfect montage, they are far away but they are still one family. It’s a bittersweet ending where at one hand our beloved characters are where they could be the happiest (or least depressed looking at Jon), but with the bitterness of them not being together. It sums up the show in a great way.
      4. Jaime and Cersei Lannister are reunited before dying in each other’s arms.
      Another send-off that grew on me. Yes in the books this, in the book that, who knows maybe it will be almost the same. But we got this in the show and it fits for me. Jaime went back to Cersei, not because of her will but on his own, he still love her, but her toxic grip is gone. And they both die together. we also saw a Cersei without power, which shows us how Cersei could have been without all the luxury and power her father gave her in which she grow into. And another thing I liked about this send-off was that D&D got the balls to show us something controversial. Do I agree with it, 100% no. But I like that they dared to show it.
      3. The people in Winterfell ready for battle to the sound of “Jenny of Oldstones”
      Still got goosebumbs just thinking of it. Beautifully sang by Daniel Portman. And a great montage that was shown to us.
      2. The knighting of Brienne of Tarth by Jamie Lannister.
      Just before we got another great scene. The Knighting of Brienne of Tarth. One of my favorites of the whole show. It was a great moment in the life of Brienne, one of my favorite. And that’s why my nummer 1 is
      1. Brienne fills in Jaime’s pages in the Book of Brothers.
      It served as a closure of her and for Jaime’s character. She put Jaime to rest and moved on. It also made it possible that Jaime’s good deeds finally got remembered. It closes their journey since season 3 perfectly.

        Quote  Reply

    18. -The knighting of Brienne of Tarth by Jaime Lannister
      -Brienne fills in Jaime’s pages in the White Book
      -Sam learns that Dany executed his father and brother
      -Varys and Tyrion discuss the realm, and treason
      -Tyrion and Sansa get sentimental in the crypt

      Narrowed it down to these five surprisingly quickly thanks to the brilliance of the performances in these scenes and how impactful they were when I first saw them. The White Book scene in particular was an absolute inevitability yet hit me harder than anything else in the entire season, and will be getting my vote as long as it remains in the game.

        Quote  Reply

    19. kevin1989,

      “Hazelnut Cream Pie from the Netherlands”?
      OMG Kevin! I’ve never heard of it but it sounds incredible. I’m drooling just thinking about it.

      Okay… Back on topic.

        Quote  Reply

    20. MatiZ815,

      not nominated in this category! the nominees come from you guys, so…I guess you didn’t nominate it. people did nominate it in the funniest scene category.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Tron79,

      ***
      2) Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away
      Ingrained in my memory forever. Such a beautiful artistic shot. Thank you Sapo. And some even say the Hound’s spirit was in the horse to help Arya one final time.

      ***
      ————

      For me, Arya + white horse have been associated with Sandor ever since these bookend scenes (at 0:01, and at 9:31) in S4e1

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQAZ7_SjgU

      It wouldn’t be surprising if Sandor’s spirit responded when the Little Lady needed a pony … again.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Ten Bears,

      Just watched your clip. It brought back such a smile to my face seeing Arya on her white pony and needle back in her belt. And believe it or not, I just came back from a block party where I had…you guessed it…..chicken!

        Quote  Reply

    23. Such an embarrassment of riches! I could have voted for half of them. However,

      1. Climax of the Long Night
      2. Jon kills Dany and Drogon destroys the IT.
      3. Arya survives the battle and rides away on the White Horse.
      4. Jon, Arya and Sansa’s final fates.
      5. Jenny of Oldstones

        Quote  Reply

    24. Such an embarrassment of riches! I could have voted for half of them. However,

      1. Climax of the Long Night
      2. Jon kills Dany and Drogon destroys the IT.
      3. Arya survives the battle and rides away on the White Horse.
      4. Jon, Arya and Sansa’s final fates.
      5. Jenny of Oldstones

      Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ***
      2) Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away
      Ingrained in my memory forever. Such a beautiful artistic shot. Thank you Sapo. And some even say the Hound’s spirit was in the horse to help Arya one final time.

      ***
      ————

      For me, Arya + white horse have been associated with Sandor ever since these bookend scenes (at 0:01, and at 9:31) in S4e1

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQAZ7_SjgU

      It wouldn’t be surprising if Sandor’s spirit responded when the Little Lady needed a pony … again.

      Exactly, TB. I think in the end they became alter egos; their Series 8 scenes often show they are of one mind about most things, despite their bickering. I now totally identify the horse with him and believe that Sandor’s spirit (and gruffness?) survives in her.

      And Kevin, thank you for your Top 15. You surly hit the highlights1

        Quote  Reply

    25. Tron79,

      As you and others have pointed out, this S8e5 scene of Arya and the white horse featured gorgeous cinematography, lush music… and emotive wordless acting by MW.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h02JHf8m_sI

      Upon rewatch, what stands out for me are:

      0:35 – 0:59 Arya sees the charred toy horse held by the remains of the little girl she’d tried to save; then Arya sees the white horse

      1:50 – 2:08 Arya calms the white horse

        Quote  Reply

    26. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      P.S. The last scene of Season 4’s premier (S4e1) closed with Arya on her white horse. Here’s the very last scene of Season 4’s finale – with Arya riding off on her white horse (at 0:00 – 0:35) after leaving Sandor.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Sure is “an embarrassment of riches.” 😋
      I think I may wind up going with
      Sandor encourages Arya to forget vengeance and they say goodbye” from S8e5 because of the contrast between the way Arya and Sandor looked at each other in their first scene together in S8 vs. their last scene together in S8, in the e1 and e5 clips below. (I also included a clip from S8e2 for context.)

      • S8e1: Arya & Sandor glowering at each other (at 0:55 – 1:07)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sur2q0zVctA

      Sandor: “I heard you were here. You left me to die.”
      Arya: “First I robbed you.”
      Sandor: “You’re a cold little bitch, aren’t you? I guess that’s why you’re still alive.”
      ___________

      S8e2, Arya and Sandor on WF battlements (at 1:15 – 1:18): “I fought for you, didn’t I?”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6aFvk5H7Ko

      ****
      (at 0:54 – 1:18)
      Arya: “No, I mean what are you doing up here. You joined the Brotherhood. You went beyond the Wall with Jon. You’re here now. Why? When was the last time you fought for anyone but yourself?”
      Sandor: “I fought for you, didn’t I?”

      ______________

      • S8e5, Sandor & Arya last scene – looking at each other with compassion (0:55 – 1:29)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgACkATLvA

      (Sandor gently cradles back of Arya’s head, looks into her eyes; she looks up at him with puppy dog eyes)
      ***
      Sandor: “You come with me, you die here.”
      (As Sandor walks away, Arya calls after him)
      Arya: “Sandor! … Thank you.”

        Quote  Reply

    28. Stark Raven’ Rad:

      ***
      Exactly, TB. I think in the end they [Sandor and Arya] became alter egos; their Series 8 scenes often show they are of one mind about most things, despite their bickering. I now totally identify the horse with him and believe that Sandor’s spirit (and gruffness?) survives in her.
      ***

      Reply #1 stuck in moderation as of 9:07 pm.
      Reply #2: I’ve wondered if Arya, in her S7e2 scene with Hot Pie, was deliberately channeling “Sandor’s spirit and gruffness” in her atrocious table manners. She was wolfing down food (pun intended) and slurping down ale like a Mini-Hound.

      #GotAnyAle?

        Quote  Reply

    29. Ten Bears,

      And THREE-components in common, though spread over two episodes: Leaving Sandor to die, white horse, ship leaving. The meanings are different, but it’s clear bookending. I think in both cases she is leaving for a new beginning. Script:”She has been No One. She has been Arya Stark of Winterfell. Who will she be next? “. I think she’s going to be the Christopher Columbus of Westeros.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Ice Hunter:
      Stupid question here…where can I find the list of nominees?

      At the top of the article, after the first paragraph or two, click where it says “CONTINUE READING” in blue font.

      (You’re being serious, right?)

        Quote  Reply

    31. Well, that was actually easy. The four Melisandre-related ones (flaming arakhs/trench/Arya meeting/death), and the funeral/mourning scene! ;p ;_;
      Given more votes I’d have to consider:
      -the Jorah scenes, since he might have been my second-favorite character that season now that I look the whole thing over like this…
      -the Beric/Sandor ones since they were pretty cool too
      -Brienne’s knighting & filling out Jaime’s pages (basically liked her arc despite it being so intertwined with Jaime’s disappointing one…though I wish she’d give Tormund a chance!)
      -the BoW plans, “Jenny of Oldstones” montage! (second ep was so great), pre-battle tension
      -Drogon watching the kiss…wait no, that was more comedic (which randomly reminds me, I found it odd in voting for the PCA that Orange Is the New Black was placed under Comedy…)
      -Jon/Sam/Edd (also funny)
      -arrival of Dany’s army at Winterfell…and that’d surely be enough options xD

        Quote  Reply

    32. 5) Missandei executed : It was one of the only times I was really shocked in S8. Grey Worm’s disgusted face, Cersei’s sadistic face, Tyrion’s ‘oh shit it’s over now’ face, Dany’s mad queen face. The acting and the music horrified me.
      4) Dany burning KL : obviously foreshadowed and predicted, so I never had a problem with it, I was actually waiting for it since S7. But when it happened her facial expressions truly scared me and still does. Everything beyond that became so violent it felt like I was in that city too. I didn’t feel like her descend into madness was rushed at all and it actually made Daenerys one of my favorite characters (when back in time I hated her).
      3) Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime : again mainly thanks to the acting and the music (I love Tyrion’s emotional theme; reminds me of Shae). Goodbye brothers.
      2) Cersei and Jaime reunites : their whole storyline is perhaps my favorite in the entire show and their ending didn’t bother me that much even if there definitely could have been a better one. That long silence when their eyes meet, Cersei’s ‘OH’, you can feel the amount of relief and joy and sadness here. You can see Cersei is so sorry for everything even if she doesn’t apologize. It really broke me when I didn’t think it would. After that scene (and the one where they die), I could only think of one thing : this is the way I want to die. I wanna die in the arms of my lover, nobody else around. Just us accepting our fate, embracing and closing our eyes, just waiting for it to end forever.
      1) Jaime knights Brienne. I cried every tear possible. Splendid. Thank you.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Ten Bears,

      Well the only great hazlenut creampie is from one store, other’s are not that great. But that one is just heavenly and if somebody wakes me up, it’s only ok if they brought it. It’s called Brokking.

      https://www.brokkingbanket.nl/public/files/productLarge/5022.JPG

      https://www.brokkingbanket.nl/public/files/productLarge/5012.JPG

      The smaller one is the best. But always take it from a bakery, not a grocery store, they have horrible pie’s, except if they sell one from a bakery.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Ten Bears,

      Amazing ending of an amazing season.

      Stark Raven’ Rad,

      I was thinking the same, there are many more great scenes in season 8 then the previous ones, but still it was rated lowest by many (not me). And it made me think if 2 seasons wasn’t better.

        Quote  Reply

    35. kevin1989,

      You made a good point about Cersei without power. Her true self revealed. Scared, defeated woman.

      I never saw her as a monster, no matter what other characters said. She was a bad person, but there was always that sense of humanity in her and I love that Benioff and Weiss kept that until the end.

      In her scenes with Sansa in S1 and S2 you can almost feel sympathy. She almost feels sorry. And even with Tyrion in S2 and S3 there is some sort of connection. When she cried in front of him and he almost hugged her. There were moments of self-realization, like we saw in that scene with Jaime after Myrcella was brought to KL.

      Deep down there was a humanity in her, Lena said she played her like a broken survivor. She was twisted by her own privilege, gold, the way she was treated by her father and husband. But there was always something human in her. And it was there at the very end.

        Quote  Reply

    36. 1-Jaime & Cersei
      2-End of a long night and the night king
      3-Jon Says goodbye to his family
      4-Arya Runs through the city and finally rides away
      5-Arya Berick & Hound

        Quote  Reply

    37. Can somebody please remind me of the categories still to be voted on?

      I think I might be able to eliminate some of my choices by saving them for another poll, for instance there is a Best Death isn’t there?

        Quote  Reply

    38. AnnOther,

      I tried to do it very quickly without thinking. But then I realized I left out about 15 of my favorite dramatic scenes… Aaargh, and among them, three of my top list favorites: “Jamie arrives at Winterfell- and sees Bran” (so many things in one long gaze!!), climax of the LN & “Sandor encourages Arya to forget vengeance and they say goodbye ” and . Pff, that was such an impossible choice anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    39. 1. Brienne is knighted

      2. Brienne fills in Jaime’s pages in the White Book (though the mistakes/inconsistencies in that scene still bug me)

      3. Melisandre’s death

      4. Davos meets a girl who reminds him of Shireen

      5. Jenny of Oldstones at the end of Episode 2

      There were many other moments in the Season that were more epic/tense/tragic/shocking/scary, etc…, but they are hampered down for me by illogical writing and/or out of character behavior.

      So I went for the scenes that I felt were most beautifully and tastefully done.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Grandmaester Flash: Can somebody please remind me of the categories still to be voted on?

      I think I might be able to eliminate some of my choices by saving them for another poll, for instance there is a Best Death isn’t there?

      (Answering myself here as I found the original list.)

      We also have Best Visual Effects Scene and Best Death Scene to come, so I am going to go through the list and put some scenes aside for these categories.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Grandmaester Flash,

      This is from last season, so categories may have changed but they were:

      best episode
      best speech
      best quote
      best VFX
      best new costume
      best guest performance
      best battle
      best fight

      I may have missed some, im sure someone will correct me 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    42. While Game of Thrones skipped much of the neccessary plot progression and character development,

      The moment of Daeneys at the bells is heartbreaking, chilling, and gorgeous

        Quote  Reply

    43. mau,

      To me, Show! Cersei was portrayed as the product of an unfeeling, aloof single father who treated her like a “broodmare”, and an emotionally unavailable abusive husband who admitted he loved a corpse more than the live girl he’d married. Unless I’m wrong, one or two of Robert’s early scenes with Cersei discussing their marriage and Lyanna’s ghost were show-only creations.
      Also, when Oberyn was telling Tyrion (in S4e7) about first meeting him when Tyrion was “just a baby”, and witnessing young girl Cersei torturing baby Tyrion in his crib, my first thought was that kind of behavior – and blaming Tyrion for “killing” her mother – was learned from her father. Children are taught to love – or hate.
      So f*ck Tywin. It’s hard to argue that karma didn’t serve up a fitting end for him when the son he’d abused and sentenced to death wound up killing him on the privy. That he’d also turned Tyrion’s sister against him was inexcusable.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Stark Raven’ Rad:
      Ten Bears,

      And THREE-components in common, though spread over two episodes: Leaving Sandor to die, white horse, ship leaving. The meanings are different, but it’s clear bookending. I think in both cases she is leaving for a new beginning. Script:”She has been No One. She has beenArya Stark of Winterfell. Who will she be next? “. I think she’s going to be the Christopher Columbus of Westeros.

      And there’s also the scene after Dany’s Inferno in S8e5 when the Red Priestess uncovers Sandor’s corpse in the rubble and resurrects him, because “the Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet, Sandor Clegane”, and tells him to hurry up and get on board the direwolf ship so he can continue watching over the Lord’s Chosen.

      … Oh wait. That’s my fanfic head canon. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    45. jenny of oldstones scenes = Jon and Daernerys- in the crypts tells her of his targaryen parentage.

      the bells , daenerys reaction to the bells .8×5

      brienne being knighted by jaime 8×2

      Daenerys and Jon, dani;’s speech to jon ….then all that follows (despite everything i was rooting for them)

      Arya Beric Sandor being chased by wights . berics death 8×3

        Quote  Reply

    46. VERY difficult to choose just five. I went with:

      1) Jaime knights Brienne.
      2) Arya in the library.
      3) “Jenny of Oldstones”
      4) Arya during the destruction of KL.
      5) Tyrion and Jaime say goodbye.

      I tried to be objective, but obviously my two favorite characters featured greatly in my choices. Maisie and NCW absolutely killed it this season.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Ten Bears: At the top of the article, after the first paragraph or two, click where it says “CONTINUE READING” in blue font.

      (You’re being serious, right?)

      The CONTINUE READING link that brought me here? That wasn’t what I was asking after, it was this list, mentioned by Sue at the end of the article:

      “The list of nominations, provided by our readers, is very long, so make sure to read through to the very end before making your final five selections!”

      It doesn’t really matter, since I’d already made my choices and they mirror those made by others. I was just curious.

      My five:

      Jon killing Dany and Drogon melting the throne.
      Arya and Sandor’s final scene together; it was perfect and well earned.
      Brienne’s knighting.
      Tyrion convincing Jon to kill the woman they both loved.
      Sam telling Jon he’s really Aegon Targaryen.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Ice Hunter,

      Well sorry I misunderstood. The nominees in the poll were proposed by the community in the preliminary nomination round. Now we get to select up to five of those entries to determine which ones will advance to the final round for voting on the winner. I think…

        Quote  Reply

    49. ash,

      ”…Funny considering how many problems so many of us here had with the last season, look at the multitude of choices we have.”
      ____
      I know, right?
      That the endings may have seemed rushed and lacking connective tissue shouldn’t obscure that there were still scores of incredible dramatic scenes.
      And of course, speaking to my own selfish preferences, although I would’ve liked an Arya-Dany bonding scene and some reaction to Jon’s parentage reveal instead of the abrupt cutaway, I have to say I cant be disappointed with the S8 denouement of the Arya & Sandor story. They had a bunch of iconic scenes in S8.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Gonna preface this with my petty personal headcanon:
      TL;DR-dead win at Winterfell, last three episodes was death dream. This is why I’m so heavily weighted towards pre-S8E3 moments.

      Honorable mentions goes to Cleganebowl (GET HYPE) and Jorah’s death.
      (DIS)honorable mention goes to the Dragonpit Great Council/ruler decision, all based off Sam Tarly unironically suggesting immediate democracy. If it was framed as a slow transition from monarchy to a republic, then it’d be more reasonable and I’d replace it with the Jaime/Cersei ending.

      ANYWAY, onto my votes=
      Jenny of Oldstones- Pod the Rod, a man of many talents.

      FORGESEX- even though this ultimately went nowhere beyond “we’re gonna probs die, so I wanna see what the big fuss about boning is”, still worked out somewhat and fit in with Arya’s character.

      Sam/Jon reunion/Jon learns his identity- Sam is normally a fairly composed person, so to see him lose it before the big reveal was like “Whoa there”

      Jon kills Dany- I don’t have a problem with this. I love it, really. With an additional episode to build to it, would rank it #1, I’m a sucker for these impossible choices.

      Brienne being knighted- easily top 10 moment of the show for me.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Nick20,

      Yes, I found it very easy to vote. I have almost the same choices as you.
      I like the hound and I like Arya, but somehow those scenes didn’t feel right to me. So I didn’t choose them for this. But I do think Rory McCann and Maisie Williams should have gotten an Emmy for the previous seasons.
      Knighting of Brienne was the most emotional scene I’ve seen, followed by the song about Jenny of Oldstones. Almost all my favourite scenes are from episode 2, for me one of the best episodes ever.

        Quote  Reply

    52. mau,

      I think Cersei acted that way, because deep down she was always scared. The power she could use to not be scared. And I think it’s logical somehow, she lost her mother at a young age, which I think was the only parent that could give love, Tywin it was all about power. Then she died because of the birth of Tyrion. She may love her little brother, but also hate him for killing the only person that showed love too her. Losing a mother is also something that can make you a person who is scared most of the time, especially with a father like Tywin. Tywin became the only role-model of her. So she’d cling to power. Then she got the prophecy about her future, which made her even more scared and hold onto power. And that even went worse once she went pregnant. Scared of the deaths of your children all the time is something horrible to live with, and power was something that could stop that. And it made sense why Cersei went that far in season 7 and 8, to protect her unborn child.

      I think Cersei is one of the most complicated character portrait on screen.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Ten Bears,

      Agree, and if you look at season 7 and 8 you see that Cersei deep down love Tyrion. Sending a hit after her brother in a way she doesn’t have to know when it happens or if it even happens at all she can do. But once Tyrion is standing before her, she can’t do it. Same with Jaime last season, Tywin learned her to be hard and cling to power. But she couldn’t kill Jaime when he wouldn’t listen to her.

      And you can see that her parenting was an issue, she tried to hard to be the kind mother to her children, that resulted in the way Joffrey became. She wanted to give something she never got to her children, but overdid it.

      And thank you for stating Robert into the equation. Many people still loved Robert, for me he is one of the most selfish man in the story. He went to war not because he cared about the people being killed, but because the woman he loved chose another. He made up the lie about her being raped by Rheagar. And the worse part is that he never knew Lyanna, it was a ghost he was in love with. It was all about his ego. He was in love with a though not a woman.
      He was also a worse father. In the books there was a moment when Cersei though about the time he hid Joffrey and she told him if he ever did that again she would kill him.
      And also him as being a king. He was not a good king as many stated, he is maybe even the worst of them all. Those 17 years of peace is not because of him, it’s because of his small counsil and his hands. They kept the peace. They made sure everything was kept together, that the kingdom didn’t go bankrupt etc. Without them the kingdoms would have gone into chaos very fast. He didn’t care about being king, only about conquering. As king he spend a lot to himself, fucking eating, he didn’t think further then himself when it comes to the gold they had. He was selfish.

        Quote  Reply

    54. kevin1989,

      Was it Robert who made up the lie? I don’t think they said in the show, but maybe that’s a book revelation? I thought perhaps Robert did think it was rape, but I wasn’t sure where the lie got started. I don’t think they said in the show did they?
      Also, Kevin, I just started to number all the chapters in AFFC and ADWD using boiled leather’s order… It’s going to take me a day just to number them all 🙂 I’m putting a note at the end of each chapter to tell me where to go next. It looks like the way to go, so thanks for the tip.

        Quote  Reply

    55. * The knighting of Brienne of Tarth by Jamie Lannister
      * Arya runs through the battle of King’s Landing and tries to save a woman and her child
      * In the battle of Winterfell, the Dothraki charge and all their flaming arakhs go out
      * Tyrion finds the bodies of his siblings
      * Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime

        Quote  Reply

    56. Tron79,

      As far as I can recall, the show never clarified where the rumor of Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna started. I don’t think Robert was the one who made up the lie.

      However, it’s also important to note that Robert’s Rebellion was not entirely based on the lie of Lyanna being kidnapped. That was just one part of it. The Mad King’s madness was the main driving impetus for the rebellion, specifically the murder of Brandon and Rickard Stark, which Jon Aryn wanted to avenge.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Tron79,

      Well not really know who to blame for the lie, people blame either Lyanna and Rheagar, Robert himself because his ego was hurt which I tend to go with, or maybe LF himself he let know he knows about Rheagar and Lyanna in season 7.

      But for me the way Robert acted about a girl he never met, and he was in “love” with her. Doesn’t sound healthy and I think it’s not far fetch that he started the lie himself. Maybe not really started the lie, but went with the outcome that suited him the best. He was probably in the dark but decided to go with the one where his ego wasn’t hurt.

      Doesn’t mean that the war against the Mad King wouldn’t have happened, but the outcome of that war would be much different. Rheagar would have been alive and taken the throne. Dany wouldn’t have gone beserk later, Robert, Joffrey etc wouldn’t have ended on the throne but Lyanna herself who would have been a mother to Jon. Lot’s would have been different if they didn’t decide to go with the lie.

      I don’t know if this is already been in the show so I put spoilertags in it

      Rheagar himself was making plans to overthrown his mad father

      and a much bigger spoiler which I put into a second tag

      Rheagar knew about the WW, he read about it, and was preparing for it, that’s why he named both Jon and his first son who died Aegon.

      Good luck with the boiled leathers. Just make one paper with it. Many times you are just reading one book for 5 a 6 chapters so that will make it easier. So already done with Storm of Swords?

        Quote  Reply

    58. Went for 3 that have made this grizzled old cynic ball her eyes out every time she has watched them – Brienne getting knighted, in my view the best scene in the entire 8 seasons, Brienne filling in the White book, a beautiful moment and Cersei and Jaime re-uniting and then dying together, a moment I thought was sublime. Also choose Cleganebowl as waited for this for 8 seasons and Arya making her way through the battle at Kings landing, Which I thought was a beautifully filmed.

        Quote  Reply

    59. kevin1989,
      The show really doesn’t go through the details of Robert’s relationship with Lyanna much at all but yes saying he was selfish is a bit of an understatement.

      I still have the last third to go on ASOS but so much is happening I’ve been reading a lot more per day. I figured I would plot out my course for the next two since won’t be too long now. I thought writing a note at the end of each chapter where to go next would be the best way for me and kind of fun paging through all the chapters. I don’t want to use this thread too much about my book journey but maybe when I’m done there will be a thread somewhere to discuss.

      I will say that it will be interesting to see the poll results on this thread. Just reading all the entries makes me want to do another re watch but I will wait until I make it through the books. Only so much time in a day.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Tron79: I don’t want to use this thread too much about my book journey but maybe when I’m done there will be a thread somewhere to discuss.

      You could always start a thread in the Forum section. It doesn’t get a lot of use, but at least you will always be able to find it quickly, as will any other interested parties.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Grandmaester Flash: You could always start a thread in the Forum section.It doesn’t get a lot of use, but at least you will always be able to find it quickly, as will any other interested parties.

      Thanks. I really don’t want to bore people and jump off topic that much, but who else can I tell that I spent almost an hour today printing out the boiled leather sequence and going through each chapter and making little notes to where to jump next (and then checking off the 4 pages of boiled leather order). Some just said “next” and others I put the page number to make it easier cuz it seemed like alot of work to have to worry about it when I was actually reading…I have to laugh at myself sometimes for being a bit obsessed as you can see… But yes, I will welcome doing it in one of the forums instead of saying too much more here. I want to do what Kevin was asking and compare show changes to new surprises from the book for previously show only folks like me… I have to say it gives me a ton of hope that there will be so much new material to delve into that may hit similar plot points as the show but definitely get there in a different way…

        Quote  Reply

    62. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      Just talk about it, I think many book readers want to know what you think

      And maybe it even convince non book readers to read the books.

      Thanks Kevin. I’ll wait to write about some of the other differences I really like or don’t like (from a show watcher’s perspective) until done with ASOS. Loving this one…

        Quote  Reply

    63. Young Dragon:
      Tron79,

      Speaking only for myself, I am not bored by your posts.

      Thank you! It has been an adventure for me, partly because I’m not a huge reader to begin with (at least not in a number of years). I pretty much live on Netflix and Amazon Prime and sometimes HBO, so it’s nice to just get back to reading and turning off the TV.

      I looked back at your post of top 5
      1. Jenny of Oldstones
      2. Danerys hears the bells.
      3. The climatic sequence of the Long Night
      4. Tyrion and Varys discuss treason
      5. Tyrion tries to persuade Jon into killing Danerys.

      Jenny was also in my top 5 and I can easily see why 2, 3, and 5 are in there,
      but what did you like so much about Tyrion’s scene with Varys? That seems out of the box. I had one out of the box pick as well with Tyrion and Jaime’s last scene together in the tent.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Tron79,

      I just thought it was a very well written and well acted scene. I felt like Varys, one of my favorites, had been underutilized the last couple seasons and this scene was a welcome addition to season 8. It’s probably my third favorite Varys scene, after his riddle to Tyrion in season 2 and his capturing of the sorcerer who cut him in season 3. I also really liked how both of them made really good points and it was difficult to tell who was in the right, at least until the next episode. This scene was one of several reasons why I hold Episode 4 in higher regard than most people.

      I also really enjoyed Tyrion’s farewell to Jaime. There’s just too many great scenes to choose from! I thought I heard we’re going to do a WOTW Awards for the entire series, which is going to be insane.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Young Dragon:
      Tron79,

      I just thought it was a very well written and well acted scene. I felt like Varys, one of my favorites, had been underutilized the last couple seasons and this scene was a welcome addition to season 8. It’s probably my third favorite Varys scene, after his riddle to Tyrion in season 2 and his capturing of the sorcerer who cut him in season 3. I also really liked how both of them made really good points and it was difficult to tell who was in the right, at least until the next episode. This scene was one of several reasons why I hold Episode 4 in higher regard than most people.

      I also really enjoyed Tyrion’s farewell to Jaime. There’s just too many great scenes to choose from! I thought I heard we’re going to do a WOTW Awards for the entire series, which is going to be insane.

      I re-watched the two scenes where Varys and Tyrion conspire/talk in Ep 4 here:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmA7sO0cJhI

      Conleth Hill’s reaction during the table read where he puts the script down and pushes it away says it all. I do think D&D mostly went for getting to their desired plot points in seasons 7 & 8, and we lost the chance to delve deeper into Varys and other characters. I would have liked to have seen more from the red princesses about the sorcerer for example. I think those Episode 4 scenes highlight Tyrion’s slide over the last two seasons making bad decision after bad decision. I believe his problem was that he refused to see how the world was (as Sandor would teach). He actually thought Cersei would care about her unborn baby enough to send troops North (delusional as Sansa points out). He bought into the dream that Dany was the one savior. He also bought into the dream that he could be on team Dany and still save his Lannister family. That’s probably the biggest conflict he faced. He was trying his best to save Cersei from herself and trying his best not to lose Jaime all while advising Dany. Some of his plea about letting KL surrender when Dany heard the bells was because he didn’t want to see Cersei die (IMHO). Yes, he may have also been concerned about the people, but he didn’t want to see his family wiped out. When he walked through the carnage of Season 7 Spoils of War, it was obvious he still was a Lannister and he was being torn to pieces. I think his mistakes and poor advice had its roots in the fact that he really didn’t want to see his family destroyed. Sorry to say Varys couldn’t snap him out of it. In one way, I could see Tryion’s point that you have to remain loyal to someone at some point, but Varys turned out to be right. Unfortunately, Varys seemed to stop playing the game well enough to get away with his plan to poison Dany. The became too overt and he made the mistake of thinking Tyrion would back him.

      Here’s the link to my out of the box choice with Tyrion and Jaime
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai21qLgwz4I

      It’s another one of those 5 minute scenes like Varys/Tyrion and Tyrion/Jaime that were some of the best moments. Just simple scenes with characters talking are some of the most memorable.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Young Dragon,

      I re-watched the two scenes where Varys and Tyrion conspire/talk in Ep 4 here:

      Conleth Hill’s reaction during the table read where he puts the script down and pushes it away says it all. I do think D&D mostly went for getting to their desired plot points in seasons 7 & 8, and we lost the chance to delve deeper into Varys and other characters. I would have liked to have seen more from the red princesses about the sorcerer for example. I think those Episode 4 scenes highlight Tyrion’s slide over the last two seasons making bad decision after bad decision. I believe his problem was that he refused to see how the world was (as Sandor would teach). He actually thought Cersei would care about her unborn baby enough to send troops North (delusional as Sansa points out). He bought into the dream that Dany was the one savior. He also bought into the dream that he could be on team Dany and still save his Lannister family. That’s probably the biggest conflict he faced. He was trying his best to save Cersei from herself and trying his best not to lose Jaime all while advising Dany. Some of his plea about letting KL surrender when Dany heard the bells was because he didn’t want to see Cersei die (IMHO). Yes, he may have also been concerned about the people, but he didn’t want to see his family wiped out. When he walked through the carnage of Season 7 Spoils of War, it was obvious he still was a Lannister and he was being torn to pieces. I think his mistakes and poor advice had its roots in the fact that he really didn’t want to see his family destroyed. Sorry to say Varys couldn’t snap him out of it. In one way, I could see Tryion’s point that you have to remain loyal to someone at some point, but Varys turned out to be right. Unfortunately, Varys seemed to stop playing the game well enough to get away with his plan to poison Dany. The became too overt and he made the mistake of thinking Tyrion would back him.

      Here’s my out of the box choice with Tyrion and Jaime

      It’s another one of those 5 minute scenes like Varys/Tyrion and Tyrion/Jaime that were some of the best moments. Just simple scenes with characters talking are some of the most memorable.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Tron79,

      That was a great scene and entirely pragmatic. It seems as if Tyrion tries to maintain balance between Dany and his siblings.
      For me it wasn’t convincing in-universe and I think it was a Doylist choice (Tyrion’s story shows the producers’ favoritism towards his character and perhaps PD himself, even though he’d have delivered everything they asked of him), because, as you said, Tyrion makes one bad choice after the other (and in the end gets away with it).

      If you like reading, you’ll enjoy ADWD, have no fear. It’s a difficult book, but it’s a meditation on power. You’re going to love Jon and probably Dorne will surprise you, and Tyrion becomes darker and darker.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Efi:
      Tron79,

      That was a great scene and entirely pragmatic. It seems as if Tyrion tries to maintain balance between Dany and his siblings.
      For me it wasn’t convincing in-universe and I think it was a Doylist choice (Tyrion’s story shows the producers’ favoritism towards his character and perhaps PD himself, even though he’d have delivered everything they asked of him), because, as you said, Tyrion makes one bad choice after the other (and in the end gets away with it).

      If you like reading, you’ll enjoy ADWD, have no fear. It’s a difficult book, but it’s a meditation on power. You’re going to love Jon and probably Dorne will surprise you, and Tyrion becomes darker and darker.

      Yeah, I’m not sure how much of a sentence it was to make Tyrion have to deal with the problems of the realm as HOTK. It seems that’s doing what he loved (as he told Shae in the show) I am glad they didn’t make Peter Dinklage look like book Tyrion though (for his sake). Although actors sometimes love taking on wearing gruesome makeup to totally hide their real selves.

      I just finished my little treasure hunt notes that tell me where to go next in the last two books following boiled leather’s path. I would think I would be intimidated to face a 2000 page book (reading the last two as one), but I’m really not. Just excited to see what happens and how the characters are different (and also to see how GRRM paints himself in a corner as book readers have talked about).

      I will say that counting the pages to the next Arya chapter has helped motivate me to read more pages in a day for the earlier books. The current book ASOS has the most Arya material, so I’m going fast. But after numbering the chapters in the last two books following boiled leather, I see there are only 5 Arya chapters in 2000 pages, so that’s going to be tough for me. I got worried there were only 2 chapters, since only 2 actually have her name on them, but I was relieved that there were 3 others with names like “The Blind Girl” instead of Arya. As a show watcher, I felt a similar way in season 5 (that i wanted more Arya instead of having her sweep for so long), but I’m still excited to see how her character develops in the books and to see if there are any differences in the HOBAW, and I will delve into the many other characters and the darker Tyrion along the way.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Tron79,

      Ok, I will try to use the spoiler code, just in case it works (I’m not sure it will, though).

      Honestly, and quite unexpectedly for me, Bran’s and Arya’s chapters are at the top of my preferences in ADWD and that’s because they contain little dialog and lots of narrative, which leaves room for internal monologues, thoughts and feelings. Arya has two or three faces in ADWD but the book has many POVs. Davos is also very interesting as one who has nothing to do with magic, warging and stuff like that, also with lots of interesting narrative and revealing about the situation in the North. Jon is exciting, frustrating, surprising, unexpected, and totally thrilling (but lots of dialog even though one understands what double-faced son of bitch he is). Daenerys, I don’t know what to make of her. She comes off as capricious, spoiled, conflicted, manipulative, and yet determined. (thank god the Mereenese Blot has explained her arc, otherwise I wouldn’t get it, I swear). All in all, ADWD excellent for me, it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read.

      Ok, didn’t work. There’s sth I’m doing wrong here.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Efi,

      Not too much of a spoiler luckily. Just a good teaser. Thanks.

      You may have used < instead of [ for your spoiler bracket. I’ve done that before since I’m used to writing html code.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Tron79,

      Also, I believe one of the reasons for the particular adaptation of Tyrion to screen, and other adaptations, such as Sandor was the fact that ST was a minor in GOT. Imagine the scenes described in the book with a girl barely 14 yo! This is why the scene with Ramsay later was only taken thus far (ST was 17 when she shot it).

        Quote  Reply

    72. Efi,

      Yes, I am glad they are older in the show for sure…
      Of course years are relative aren’t they. Who’s to say how long a complete orbit takes on planet Westeros!

        Quote  Reply

    73. Tron79,

      Hey! I want to hear about your book journey! Don’t be reluctant to share…

      Someday I’ll follow in your footsteps. I’d like to know your insights. (So how does Book!Arya compare with Show!ASNAWP?)

      PS I’ve read a handful of iconic passages, but no full chapters – except for a Winds of Winter chapter GRRM pre-released on his blog: “Mercy.” Loved it.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Tron79,

      ”…I just started to number all the chapters in AFFC and ADWD using boiled leather’s order… It’s going to take me a day just to number them all 🙂 I’m putting a note at the end of each chapter to tell me where to go next.”

      Don’t you have a map? Don’t you think you should get one?

        Quote  Reply

    75. This was so hard
      I didn’t even make it through half the list before I got to my five choices.

      Anyway most of mine had to do with episode 3… lol

      I hope that “the climactic sequence of “The Long Night” – Theon and Jorah fall, and Arya kills the Night King” wins

        Quote  Reply

    76. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”…I just started to number all the chapters in AFFC and ADWD using boiled leather’s order… It’s going to take me a day just to number them all I’m putting a note at the end of each chapter to tell me where to go next.”

      Don’t you have a map? Don’t you think you should get one?

      Yeah…this boiled leather guide has all 114 chapters mapped out…I printed it and it ended up on 4 pages… Most told me they didn’t go to all this trouble and just kept the list next to them, but that seemed like too much work for me to figure out where I was going after each chapter…Granted alot are just the next chapter! But it was worth the time to write little notes at the end of each chapter to say where to jump next, since alot is going back and forth between the two books and a few times it jumps way back to chapter 41 or something, so I took the time to write in the page numbers…Now I won’t feel stressed out reading and worrying about it… Otherwise, I was thinking of just reading them as is… But it took two days to just page through those two books and write in all my notes to myself!

      I’ll write about Arya once I finish ASOS. This book definitely has the most Arya stuff.
      I’ll give you one teeny spoiler if you want to read one…

      There is a much bigger battle in A Clash of Kings with Yoren than there was in the show. In the books Arya and Hot pie are on top of a parapet holding off attackers as as the attackers are climbing the walls of a holdfast. She yells “Winterfell” as she slashes one of the climbers hands with Needle. She’s very fierce in the book and gets muddy alot!… I love how she yells “Wintefell” too. Alot of the characters yell their castle names in battle. I’ll write more after I finish ASOS. Lots of Arya in that one.

        Quote  Reply

    77. For anyone else considering reading AFFC spliced together with ADWD, I recommend the Ball Of Beasts version.
      https://ballofbeasts.weebly.com
      It’s almost the same reading order as Boiled Leather, but I was able to download the whole thing to a tablet, which was a convenient way to read it.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Grandmaester Flash,

      I see that he has almost the same as boiled leathers.

      I only don’t like that he combined 2 chapters as one, how does he even do that, one moment you think you read one character and then in the same chapter the next? Should stay 2 chapters. And why does he changes 2 chapter names in his tablet version.

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    79. kevin1989,

      Maybe you should read the combined chapter and see what you think then. The way they have blended the chapters means that there is no need to repeat the same scene.
      As for the re-titling, I don’t remember why they did that. It’s not a problem though.

      The reason for posting was really because Tron seems to have had to spend quite a long time preparing to read the combined text, whereas ABOB is ready to download as a complete version.

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    80. Grandmaester Flash,

      Thanks for your help. I’m good now though. Now that I wrote in little notes at the end of each chapter I won’t have to think and not thinking is good for me 😮

      Does the tablet version have the book itself in the tablet? I still like real pages.

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    81. mau,

      That’s a good one, thanks for the link.
      I do think that he’s missing a point though, specifically that arcs are meant for people to change, not stay the same –well at least some of them if not all of them. Everybody evolves, even in the real world. You’re not the same person at 40s as you are at 20s or even 30s.
      While Daenerys has threatened to burn cities since season 2, she came to accomplish that in season 8. That’s evolving to become who she is, the “fire and blood” of her sigil while all along she’s always had to choose, which is why Tyrion and Sam ask Jon the same thing, “would you do it”?
      The commentator commented on Daenerys, Jamie, Tyrion and Euron, but left Jon out. I suppose because the way he was portrayed in the show his arc wasn’t very clear, or, if one is even more strict about it, hasn’t evolved at all as a character. I’d love to have some comments on the final murder in connection with his previous course.

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    82. Tron79,

      I hope you know my remark at 12:37 pm (“Don’t you have a map? Don’t you think you should get one?”) was a lame allusion to the S4e3 scene in which Arya suggests Sandor should get a map.
      (at 0:00 – 0:23):

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVLDIg0bVns

      (P.S. I also liked Arya’s self-satisfied smile at 2:06, after her social skills score dinner and lodging from Rabbit Stew Sally and her father…)

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    83. Ten Bears,

      Thanks! It was a good reference! I haven’t seen Maisie much lately. Is she staying under the radar for awhile? I was hoping she would get out there more before the Emmy’s
      The people’s choice is another one that has alot to do with how visible the actors are in the media. I can say she’s still great at interviews whenever I do see her. I just haven’t seen anything new for quite some time. I think I mentioned on another thread that child actor Daphne Keen was interviewed for a similar type of role to Arya in His Dark Materials coming later this year on HBO. She is no Maisie in interviews. Maisie just jumps off the screen with energy, and Daphne was much lower energy in interviews. I couldn’t help but compare.

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    84. Tron79,

      I actually think he did quite well considering the situation he was in. There were actually three sides for which Tyrion cared about. Side one: Daenerys and her war. Side two: Cersei and Jaime, whom he didn’t want to die. Side three: Sansa. About the last one, if you rewatch the scene when he tells Dany about Varys he justifies both Varys and Sansa, lying about their intentions. In the previous episode he was saying “She loses the North, she loses the Vale, Sansa will make sure of that”. And he says that Varys wanted a better future more than anyone else but he relents seeing her face that it doesn’t matter now. Considering the situation he was in the last two seasons, he did quite well. The wight hunt, despite what many think, was necessary. It would have been better if they had invited other houses to have more men.

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    85. Grandmaester Flash,

      I understand but I think there is a reason why that chapter shows us both sides, it’s important to read that scene 2 times and read both thoughts about it. And for me with reread I just skip the conversations and only concentrate on the thoughts the second time. But first time I would suggest too just read it like it was printed original.

      Tron79,

      And already done with SoS?

      Efi,

      Jon hasn’t evolve? I think he is one that has evolved the most in my honest opinion.
      1. From a boy following orders, to a man who roams free north of the wall. orders > free
      2. Beginning of book 1/season 1, he is very arrogant to a degree, he thinks he is better than everyone else, but forget that he learned things like swordfights because he has been grown up in a castle.
      3. He started his journey with a clear goal. He wanted to be a ranger, but not just a ranger, first ranger. That changed to that he wanted to lead someday. In the end he learned that he hates leading. He is the opposite with that in the end.
      4. In season 1 he was also very hard-headed (right word?), he jumped on a horse the first moment he learned about Ned. He also got easily in fights with for instance Thorne. In the end he was calm, and could keep his calm.
      5. Almost same as 4, but a different take. In the beginning he would easily go through fights for the ones he loved, and forget about the bigger picture. Look at how he left to go south in 1×10. He didn’t think, he reacted directly. Look at 8×03 that he left Sam to fend for himself.
      6. Duty love
      7. Not really character-wise. But his bond with for instance Sansa changed a lot. But that’s more Sansa’s character.

      Put Jon from season 1 next to the one of season 8. You see Jon is still Jon. But he learned a lot, and matured a lot. And much faster than most.

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    86. Jucor:
      Tron79,

      I actually think he did quite well considering the situation he was in. There were actually three sides for which Tyrion cared about. Side one: Daenerys and her war. Side two: Cersei and Jaime, whom he didn’t want to die. Side three: Sansa. About the last one, if you rewatch the scene when he tells Dany about Varys he justifies both Varys and Sansa, lying about their intentions. In the previous episode he was saying “She loses the North, she loses the Vale, Sansa will make sure of that”. And he says that Varys wanted a better future more than anyone else but he relents seeing her face that it doesn’t matter now. Considering the situation he was in the last two seasons, he did quite well. The wight hunt, despite what many think, was necessary. It would have been better if they had invited other houses to have more men.

      Interesting. I do agree that Tyrion did quite well. The wight hunt though still really bugs me. It was Tyrion’s wishful thinking that Cersei would care about the WW threat even if she was convinced it was real. From Cersei’s perspective, the WW would help wipe out the Northern enemies and weaken or destroy Dany’s army.

      Thinking about it this morning, it did accomplish one thing. It convinced Dany that there was a real threat, and it gave her skin in the game, since she sacrificed her child Viserion. She was all in at that point. Without Dany’s army and her dragons, there would have been no chance at all. I know I’m changing topics, but I don’t get how the WW’s just walked through the broken wall. Benjen said he couldn’t go back because of the magic. The wall wasn’t just the ice. Did D&D destroy the magic just because they weren’t crazy about the magical elements of the show? I don’t think Icey Viserion could break the magic spells under the wall even if the wall itself melted/caved in. Otherwise, with so many Wights, they could have just climbed over the wall. Plenty of Wildlings have made the climb. The Wights were good climbers (and rollers down the wall) as shown in Hardhome. So some of those things really bug me. Tyrion had a “wishful thinking” syndrome going on the last two seasons where he saw a world that he thought he could influence to his will. I think Tyrion called it his “vanity” in one of his scenes. But he was blind to the way the world really was. He wasn’t going to be able to have it all by keeping his family safe and still being Dany’s HOTK. I’m not sure why Varys didn’t just wait things out some. Varys said that since 8 people knew the truth, it was just a matter of time before the truth got out. I know he was trying to speed up the process by sending ravens, but he really didn’t need to try to poison her. He could have been more covert about it and just let things happen. He could have recruited the red priestesses like Tyrion did to help spread the word organically that Jon was TPTWP and he was a Targaryen. He got sloppy in that final season, and that could have been the writing just rushing things along.

      Tyrion did end up as HOTK, but he lost his family. He didn’t seemed tortured about it though. Thinking about it this morning, it really bugs me that Tyrion didn’t seem even a little bit tortured once he sat at the small council table. Sure he was tortured walking through the ruins, but then he seemed to be able to quickly let it go. He was happy enough to tell brothel jokes. He already moved on somehow. Jon on the other hand was heartbroken, and it was going to take him possibly years before he could let go of the fact that he killed Dany even if it was the right thing to do.

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    87. Tron79,

      Well, Tyrion above all in the ending just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, not to mention the screwed-up message here.
      But apart from that (much discussed already).
      Perhaps it takes a magic creature to take down a magic wall. And that creature is the dragon.
      In Fire and Blood the writer contemplates how a dragon doesn’t feel well in the area of the Wall. Queen Alyssane has problems with her dragon there, while visiting the North and waiting for Jaehaerys to arrive. This somehow passed into the show by the simplistic “the dragons are not eating” thing.

      The point is, convincing Daenerys to take her full force North for the war with the NK costed Westeros the Wall. Had it been standing, perhaps it’d be a war waged entirely beyond the Wall.
      But if the Wall fell in the show, it’ll fall in the books too, where there are other magical elements too. Perhaps those will play out together, for example, the horn, the dragons, and the red priests.
      In any case the Night King will fall in Winter-fell. So I think it’ll be pretty much the same in the books, the Wall coming down, Jon and Arya and the Lannister boys fighting at Winterfell, Daenerys too, most probably, Jon’s identity revealed (imo at least when he rides a dragon which the show completely downplayed).

      Also note regarding the magical elements. The Night King is the champion of Winter/Ice/the Great Other. Daenerys is the champion of fire/god of fire. They’re bound to clash and this will be the catalyst for everything I suppose.

      (perhaps in this context Jon is the champion of the old gods, the one destined to fight both ice/fire, to become the factor between them. Ghost is his “he belongs to the old gods this one” pet, he’ll be raised by the god of fire just like the show but he’ll have warged into Ghost)

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    88. Tron79: Tyrion did end up as HOTK, but he lost his family. He didn’t seemed tortured about it though. Thinking about it this morning, it really bugs me that Tyrion didn’t seem even a little bit tortured once he sat at the small council table. Sure he was tortured walking through the ruins, but then he seemed to be able to quickly let it go. He was happy enough to tell brothel jokes. He already moved on somehow. Jon on the other hand was heartbroken, and it was going to take him possibly years before he could let go of the fact that he killed Dany even if it was the right thing to do.

      Tyrion wasn’t happy about the power he got in the end, he thought he didn’t deserve it. He thought about his father when he saw the chair and of Cersei when he saw the map. It’s in the script I think. He shares the weight of the decision he and Jon made. The difference between Tyrion and Jon is that Tyrion doesn’t live in a world of absolutes, that’s why he was able to read quickly how the situation had changed. Moreover, Daenerys was for Tyrion his saving light when he was at his lowest, but Jaime was his permanent anchor. Tyrion is a quick thinker and he always believes in what he sees. That is why Tyrion did not abandon Daenerys jumping ship as Varys did. He always had a lot of admiration for the way she represented his second chance at life. I do agree he seemed quite relieved when he took over because he was going back to do something he has always excelled at: administering power and solving immediate problems. That’s why he is so good at saving his life. I think Tyrion represents the overall series in many ways: he has seen everything, spent time with every main character or at least met them, he’s like the glue holding Game of Thrones together. I think with ruling the six Kingdoms, building the family anew and being Lord of Casterly Rock he has his mind quite occupied, so obviously he has moved on.
      I would have liked if the show had acknowledged that he finally got (it’s obvious by the way) the position he wanted from his father, but it would have been a moment of triumph and I think the showrunners left the series without a winner. Everyone won and lost at the end. The overall tone was somber, not even Arya or Sansa had a moment of triumph at the end, more like every piece is at the right place on the chessboard. Especially if you consider how Sansa’s QITN moment pales in comparison to Robb’s and Jon’s.

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    89. “If you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention”

      Even though pretty much everyone had a happy ending except for Daenerys.

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    90. kevin1989,

      Ah, Jon. This one hurts the most, lol.
      I’ve said before that I don’t think Jon’s fate in the books is going to be same. There’s no way the best guarded secret in the books ends up meaning nothing for the overall structure of the story. I think I’ve explained my view sufficiently so I won’t come back to it again here. So let’s leave the books out of it, if you agree.

      While I basically agree with a lot of what you’ve said (I think I’ve told you before that we do not fundamentally disagree, I think though that you’re a romantic, which is a good thing, I’m just a cynical old bitch by now), I don’t see how Jon returning to were he started from is evolvement.
      It wasn’t his choice this time, while it was his choice to go there in the beginning. Yes, he’s learned a lot. Letting others fight for him, letting others decide and command, yes, he’s done all of that while in the beginning he was innocent and cocky like all Stark boys and girls who grew up very protected in a loving family.
      But I don’t see how being forced to give up his crown means that he hates ruling, and this in spite of the fact that he kept repeating in season 8 like a broken record I don’t want it/you’re my queen. He’s actually good at ruling. Sansa told him, Varys almost told him, even Tyrion almost told him in the end.
      Take Jon from the show. He’s dealt with Wildlings, he’s dealt with Mance, Tormund and Stannis. He acted like a lone wolf, always focused on his goal, and he got killed for it.
      Jump to seasons 7-8. He bedded a dangerous queen with dragons. He brought Daenerys to his home, didn’t confide to anybody not even about his identity until ep. 4, participated in mass murder and in the end killed his own queen.
      Disaster all over.
      If there’s one lesson he hasn’t learnt yet, it’s this: the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
      He acted all on his own for his own purpose and took the other of the three endings reserved for heroes in literature: he was exiled.
      (the other two endings is dying -already done that- and becoming king -done that too).
      It served him well, but he still didn’t learn anything.
      Someone should have told him not to mix business and pleasure.
      After all this, Jon Snow knows nothing.
      He’ll screw up North of the Wall too. Sure thing.

      (old gods and new gods, I’m enjoying writing this!)

      (PS I believe the word you’re looking for is hot-headed)

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    91. Mr Derp:
      “If you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention”

      Even though pretty much everyone had a happy ending except for Daenerys.

      Everyone had a, dare I say it, “bittersweet” ending. Rambling below….

      Tyrion has his dream job, and one that he will be good at. He’s basically the King in all but name, since I cannot see Bran being particularly active in running the six kingdoms. But he no longer has a family. Yes, he has Casterly Rock, and is the head of his House, but it is an empty castle full of memories. He betrayed his best friend and convinced Jon to kill the woman they both loved. He may “seem” happy, but is he? I think he is grateful to still be alive and to be working to build KL back up from the ashes.

      Jon is where Tormund suggested he belonged–in the “true” north–with Ghost as his side. No more killing. No more being a King or Lord Commander. As KBtW he can work on rebuilding the Wildling culture and no one will know he is the last Targaryen. The line will die with him. Even if he fathers children, I’m not sure they would lose the coin toss. Rhaegar was gentle, Lyanna was gentle, and Jon (when allowed to be) is gentle–the odds are in his favor. But is he happy? Can he close his own eyes and not see the life draining out of Dany’s? Can he forget what witnessed in KL? Jon is still young, so there’s a chance the north will heal him.

      Our fiery young ninja warrior is taking the voyage she told Lady Crane she’d like to take, but in some ways she has the most pain to heal from. From the time Syrio told her to run, she’s seen and committed far to much violence for a child/young woman. The only good thing that happened to her turned out to her meeting up with Sandor. Her captor became her companion, friend, and surrogate father. It was fitting that Sandor was the one to free her from fixation on revenge. She seemed happy on her ship, and knowing that her family (what was left of them) are all in good places. She’ll do fine.

      So will Sansa. Due to how she was abused growing up by Cersei, Joffrey, LF, Lysa, and Ramsay, she is now forged steel. She told Sandor as much, and it showed in both small and large ways. She learned politics and learned (from someone…) how to manage a castle. She’s smart and determined and I have no doubt will be a good queen. Will she ever be happy? Right now she is content, so let’s check back in ten years.

      Although he says he doesn’t feel or care anymore, Bran did show (for him) kindness to his family, including Theon. So he gets to be King, but it won’t make him either happy or unhappy–it’s just his new role in life.

      Brienne being knighted and named Lord Commander of the King’s Guard would seem to be a happy outcome, but she lost Renly and, more importantly, Jaime on the road to success. But Brienne, like the rest of the survivors, is resilient. She might not ever find true happiness, but she will be proud and, someday, have her feats entered into the White Book. There are worse fates.

      So no truly happy endings, but I’d have been shocked and disappointed if there had been. GoT wasn’t that kind of story.

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    92. kevin1989:
      Grandmaester Flash,

      I understand but I think there is a reason why that chapter shows us both sides, it’s important to read that scene 2 times and read both thoughts about it. And for me with reread I just skip the conversations and only concentrate on the thoughts the second time. But first time I would suggest too just read it like it was printed original.

      Tron79,

      And already done with SoS?

      Efi,

      Jon hasn’t evolve? I think he is one that has evolved the most in my honest opinion.
      1. From a boy following orders, to a man who roams free north of the wall. orders > free
      2. Beginning of book 1/season 1, he is very arrogant to a degree, he thinks he is better than everyone else, but forget that he learned things like swordfights because he has been grown up in a castle.
      3. He started his journey with a clear goal. He wanted to be a ranger, but not just a ranger, first ranger. That changed to that he wanted to lead someday. In the end he learned that he hates leading. He is the opposite with that in the end.
      4. In season 1 he was also very hard-headed (right word?), he jumped on a horse the first moment he learned about Ned. He also got easily in fights with for instance Thorne. In the end he was calm, and could keep his calm.
      5. Almost same as 4, but a different take. In the beginning he would easily go through fights for the ones he loved, and forget about the bigger picture. Look at how he left to go south in 1×10. He didn’t think, he reacted directly. Look at 8×03 that he left Sam to fend for himself.
      6. Duty love
      7. Not really character-wise. But his bond with for instance Sansa changed a lot. But that’s more Sansa’s character.

      Put Jon from season 1 next to the one of season 8. You see Jon is still Jon. But he learned a lot, and matured a lot. And much faster than most.

      Jon’s is one of the most underrated evolutions in the show. So is Tyrion’s. The Stark girls are more on the nose, so they are easily noticed. But I liked that Arya’s and Sansa’s flaws were kept: Arya’s impulsiveness and Sansa being bitchy most of the time, sometimes even before there is reason for it.

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    93. Ice Hunter,

      Not a ramble. I enjoy the points you’ve made, and I agree with some, but disagree that the majority of characters on GoT had a bittersweet ending.

      * Sansa became QITN. It’s basically all she wanted since she rediscovered her love for the North. That is a happy ending.

      * Arya got to go on adventures and skirt any possible duties to her family despite the famous Stark saying “the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives”, so she got exactly what she wanted. That’s a happy ending.

      * Tyrion said that he really enjoyed being Hand of the King. His story ended with him being Hand of the King. That’s a happy ending.

      * Jon got to live in the North completely free. He has no obligations to anyone anymore really. He gets to live out his days with the people that embrace him for who he is. And he gets to be with Ghost! That’s definitely a happy ending. If Jon struggles with the fact that he killed the biggest mass murderer is the history of Westeros then he needs to grow a pair already. He did what needed to be done, and he saved thousands of lives. He couldn’t even get himself to be intimate with Dany after the parentage reveal, so him struggling with killing “his queen” is, IMO, a bit much. It’ll take time to get over that, sure, but in the end, he has to know that he did the right thing. Luckily, he’ll have plenty of time to contemplate this while he’s living free in the North with his best friends.

      * Bran gets to be pampered for life as king and be with his visions all day while the Small Council runs the everyday affairs of Westeros. That’s as happy of an ending that Bran could’ve ever hoped for.

      * Brienne got what she always wanted. She’s been knighted and became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Yes, Jaime died, but after dumping her rather harshly. Despite the affection between the two, I don’t think they would’ve ever been happy together. Brienne has plenty of time to still find love if that’s what she wants, but she appears to prefer being in the Kingsguard. Definitely a happy ending.

      Yes, people close to them died, but when does that NOT happen in Westeros? Yes, many of them went through trauma, but that’s life in Westeros…and life in general. All in all, I’d say our favorite characters made out in the end much better than bittersweet. I’ll go with semi-sweet 🙂

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    94. Efi,

      GRRM already explained that all the endings of the main characters, that included Jon has the same ending. Jon will not be king, he will go north and being exiled for the murder of Dany. How they go to that place is maybe different. It’s also confirmed that Bran will also be the king in the books. The ending is the same, but the road to that place is different. Jon still is exiled north, Sansa will become queen of the north, Bran king out the 6 kingdoms, Tyrion hand of the king, Arya going west. Dany going mad queen and being killed by Jon. But what will the difference be is the question, how will the roads differ to come to that conclusion.
      As for Jon’s true history, of course it will be the same importance in the books. It’s all about a truth that Jon doesn’t want to go out because he doesn’t want the throne, but it comes out by a hand of people and it results in the horror in KL. And in the books we have another character that already in the open to being the true heir, no need for Jon to also to be that. If Jon’s truth will come out all in the open in the books it will be rehearsing the same story of winds in the last book.
      It also make sense storywise if we look at what aSoIaF represents. It represents history not being truthfully told. It starts with lyanna’s kidnapping lie, the lie of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella and many more. So it’s logical that in the end, Jon’s truth is also that, the truth will not be remembered. His parentage will not be revealed (also because Jon doesn’t want it, people need to remember that, he doesn’t want it, he doesn’t want it, so why do you want it out). But his truth will result in a game-changing ending event. For me that’s more important than which ass sits on that damn throne in the end. Another one that is also confirming this is the WW treat. That also stay a myth for the majority of Westeros. The truth will not be remembered. That’s what the story is about.

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    95. Efi,

      The truth is Jon doesn’t end up where he started, the north is just a place to live. A place doesn’t say anything about evolvement. Else Sansa wouldn’t be evolved. Cersei not because she was the whole story in KL. Arya still moving form place to place etc. That’s not what evolvement means, even when many people think that is happening with Jon because he got back north again. He who Jon is is exactly the opposite. First he went to the wall as a servant for better words. Following orders, doing what others tell him to do. In the end he is exactly the opposite. He is a free men. Roaming where he wants (also something that people tend to forget, Tormund saw it, Jon wants to be in the true north, that’s where his heart lies not south, but still people want the opposite for Jon, than what Jon would be happy with). He is even king beyond the wall. He will help his people in the north. Given them structure (in a sense because they are together) but still are free. He is free for the first time in the story to do what Jon wants.
      And that it wasn’t his choice doesn’t mean it’s not what Jon wants. Bran sees all, knows all (or a lot), he knows his brother. He knows that he needed to convince Grey worm. He needed to combine that all. So it’s very logical if Bran, like Tormund knew that Jon wanted to be north, with Ghost his buddy and Tormund his bigger buddy. So that he sends Jon north, because he knew Jon wants to be there.
      The only downside with Jon is his 2 lovers dying in his arms, but that doesn’t matter if he became king or not, that still happened.

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    96. Efi,

      I don’t see why people still believe Jon wants that crown. It’s very obvious, why he followed Dany till the end, why he gave up his crown in season 7. He even admitted in 7×03 that he hates being King to Dany. He is good at it, but he hates it. And as you stated Sansa also said he is good at ruling. And Jon admits he hates it. It’s also very clear in the final itself why he doesn’t want to see who Dany really is even when all the horror happened before his eyes. His words to Tyrion made it clear, he wasn’t scare for his life, he knew Dany needed to go. What he was scared about was that once Dany was out of the picture, Jon would have been crowned king. Another course of duty. He is done with duty, he wants love. But duty is the death of love. And he even admitted it in season 7 or 8 can’t remember to Sansa that he didn’t want the crown in the north, they crowned him even when Jon didn’t want it. He only took it because it was his duty. (And didn’t Kit already explained that Jon hated leading or was that D&D can’t remember, I though Kit because he said he was content with his ending)
      I agree with the lone wolf dies part. And yes hot headed.

      ps. Sorry for the 3 parter, but I was scared it stayed in comment purgatory.

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    97. Ice Hunter,

      Agree, and about Sansa, I think she would be happier if her family was beside her, I think she rather wants Arya with her. But she decided to let Arya do what Arya wants to do. She grow with that.

      Mr Derp,

      Agree almost 100% with you. But for Jon I think it’s more deeper then that. He even felt horrible for killing Olly the one that killed him. And with Dany it was a loved one, 2 loved ones died in his arms. What if he falls in love again but can’t act on it because he is afraid that one also dies in his arms.

      As for WotW awards, I don’t know if such an award is already in place but else I want to add one. Best single picture. What I mean with this is, when you pause an episode at a time, that picture you get what that does with you. So the best pictures.

      Because I already have 3 pictures I found amazing. from episode 3, the shot above the clouds. (I though that was already in an award because of visual award, but that’s not what I meant).
      The one is in the final. Dany with wings behind her. Very symbolic picture.
      The last is for me episode 5, First shot of Dany (or one of her first shots), her look at that moment. Hair all messed up. Her face looks like she will break any moment. That shot is some of the best of the whole saga. It tells a lot. It tells how Dany is feeling, but also the danger that gives with her having power etc.

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    98. I will concede that Greyworm had a bittersweet ending. Actually, his was pretty damn bitter. And of course Varys and Missandei had bitter endings too.

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    99. Tron79,

      Mind if I jump on the Tyrion-bashing bandwagon for a moment?

      One thing that’s really bugged me came during Tyrion’s private meeting with Cersei after the dragonpit convocation in S7e7. Now, by this point Tyrion had already started to doubt Dany; he’d been commiserating with Varys that she wasn’t listening to his advice; he was exasperated
      that she had disregarded his entreaties to give Dickon Tarly a Time-Out in a cell to reconsider his rash decision to join his dumb dad in defying Dany, and instead unnecessarily roasted both Tarly Sr. and Tarly Jr. He’d seen Dany resort to “Fire and Blood” as a default setting. And he was horrified witnessing her carpet-bombing columns of Lannister soldiers on Field of Fire 2.0 in S7e4.
      He’d become concerned that Dany had become susceptible to her worst impulses, and that he and Vetyx no longer had such sway over her.

      And yet, he insisted to Cersei: “She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses instead of feeding them. That’s the difference between you.”

      Really Tyrion?

      ____________

      (Longer S7e7 Tyrion-Cersei Excerpt):

      Tyrion: “If there’s no future, then why are we here? Why did you allow me to come?”
      Cersei: “Not to help my enemies collaborate in my destruction.”
      Tyrion: “…. but you must have hoped for something.”
      Cersei: “What did you hope for? To make Jon Snow submit to your queen?”
      Tyrion: “Not like this.”
      Cersei: “But eventually, you want everyone to bend the knee to her.”
      Tyrion: “Yes.”
      Cersei: “Why?”
      Tyrion: “Because I think she will make the world a better place.”
      Cersei: “You said she’d destroy King’s Landing.”
      Tyrion: “She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses instead of feeding them. That’s the difference between you.”
      Cersei: “I don’t care about checking my worst impulses. I don’t care about making the world a better place. Hang the world.”

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    100. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Mind if I jump on the Tyrion-bashing bandwagon for a moment?

      One thing that’s really bugged me came during Tyrion’s private meeting with Cersei after the dragonpit convocation in S7e7. Now, by this point Tyrion had already started to doubt Dany; he’d been commiserating with Varys that she wasn’t listening to his advice; he was exasperated
      that she had disregarded his entreaties to give Dickon Tarly a Time-Out in a cell to reconsider his rash decision to join his dumb dad in defying Dany, and instead unnecessarily roasted both Tarly Sr. and Tarly Jr. He’d seen Dany resort to “Fire and Blood” as a default setting. And he was horrified witnessing her carpet-bombing columns of Lannister soldiers on Field of Fire 2.0 in S7e4.He’d become concerned that Dany had become susceptible to her worst impulses, and that he and Vetyx no longer had such sway over her.

      And yet, he insisted to Cersei: “She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses instead of feeding them. That’s the difference between you.”

      Really Tyrion?

      ____________

      (Longer S7e7 Tyrion-Cersei Excerpt):

      Tyrion: “If there’s no future, then why are we here? Why did you allow me to come?”
      Cersei: “Not to help my enemies collaborate in my destruction.”
      Tyrion: “…. but you must have hoped for something.”
      Cersei: “What did you hope for? To make Jon Snow submit to your queen?”
      Tyrion: “Notlike this.”
      Cersei: “But eventually, you want everyone to bend the knee to her.”
      Tyrion: “Yes.”
      Cersei: “Why?”
      Tyrion: “Because I think she will make the world a better place.”
      Cersei: “You said she’d destroy King’s Landing.”
      Tyrion: “She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses instead of feeding them. That’s the difference between you.”
      Cersei: “I don’t care about checking my worst impulses. I don’t care about making the world a better place. Hang the world.”

      I think that everyone at the time was reflecting about what Daenerys did and the show tried to justify it because it was not a black and white situation. I think most of the fans were with Dany on that decision. Daenerys has always tried not to resort to Fire and Blood, but that’s what she is. Her desire for home, settling down, having a family was crushed by her ambition. Tyrion’s assessment was correct at the time and everyone is allowed to commit mistakes, that’s why he defended her in front of Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Ten Bears,

      It’s true to a degree, but the problem is, from her 4 advisors. Jorah, Missandei, Grey Worm and Tyrion. 2 are death (the ones that were best in keeping that impulse in check), and one she doesn’t trust anymore and thinks he is working with his family against her. That means that Grey worm was the only one left to advice her. And do we really think that in 8×05 he kept her worse impulse in check? No, he will feed that worse impulse to take revenge for Missandei’s death.

        Quote  Reply

    102. kevin1989,

      “It also make sense storywise if we look at what aSoIaF represents. It represents history not being truthfully told. It starts with lyanna’s kidnapping lie, the lie of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella and many more. So it’s logical that in the end, Jon’s truth is also that, the truth will not be remembered. His parentage will not be revealed (also because Jon doesn’t want it, people need to remember that, he doesn’t want it, he doesn’t want it, so why do you want it out). But his truth will result in a game-changing ending event.”

      Here we are, talking about the books again.
      Narratively-wise it makes no sense that Jon’s secret will not matter at all because it’s the secret designed in the book to blow up everything. It will come out, and it will cause whatever it will.
      Also narratively wise it makes no sense that Jon stays a Snow. He always wanted to be a Stark, yes, and perhaps he’ll denounce that too because he definitely shall not want to be Targaryen, but choosing to be Snow is not evolvement, it’s self-punishment. I don’t think he’ll want to be punished after he’ll have suffered a murder and whatever else for the good of humanity. But that’s just my opinion.

      “And in the books we have another character that already in the open to being the true heir, no need for Jon to also to be that.”

      But that’s exactly the point. You have the fake ones, fake Aegon and Daenerys, but only one is the true heir, and that’s Jon. These things come in threes, never one or two, it’s a rule of telling a fairytale. What Jon does with being an heir is another issue I’m afraid. It’s his problem, lol.

      “GRRM already explained that all the endings of the main characters, that included Jon has the same ending.”

      No, he never explicitly said that. He said the “yes and no and yes and no and yes” which is by now famous. What commentators understood and how they gave it to their audiences/readers is a whole different issue. Always factor in the intermediary agent, he’s got another take.
      (and my take is also just another take of what he said)
      The more I see Martin’s interviews after the show ended, the more convinced I am that there will be significant differences, and I tend to locate those not to the “major beats” (I believe these were his words before the season aired, or the producers’ words) but to details such as the characters’s endings.
      Meaning, Daenerys dies by Jon’s hand, KL destroyed, perhaps three kingdoms (I’m not at all sure about that). The characters? Well, who knows…

        Quote  Reply

    103. kevin1989,

      “The truth is Jon doesn’t end up where he started, the north is just a place to live.”

      I meant place more generally, as in location, people, job. It’s not “where” he is, but what’s he’s doing there. He went there in the first place because he felt like he didn’t belong to WF with his father gone. And he returns there because once again the world has judged that he doesn’t belong. That’s not evolvement, it’s confinement, almost like a prison. You say he’s roaming free, but he’s roaming free north of the Wall, not south of it; it’s forbidden to leave the place unless he has a particular job to do south of the Wall.
      And why am I as a viewer to understand that Tormund speaks for Jon when Jon himself doesn’t speak? Did we ever saw Jon reminiscing his time at the Wall? Did we see him miss it, in seasons 6-8? He was murdered there, why would he want to return there? He says specifically “my watch has ended”.
      Well, time for him to say “and now my watch begins again”.

      “still people want the opposite for Jon, than what Jon would be happy with).”

      I don’t know if it is meaningful to want something in particular for Jon. He’s a fictional character. I’m just saying I’m not convinced 1) that he wants to return to the Wall/the far North and 2) that his ending shows that he has evolved.

      “He is free for the first time in the story to do what Jon wants.”

      He has been doing what he wanted all along. He wanted to go to the Wall; he went. He wanted to bring the Freefolk south of the Wall; he did (and got murdered for it). He wanted the dragons/allies; got them. He wanted to defeat the NK; did it.
      Perhaps that’s it, that’s the catch; he didn’t want to return there, but he’s forced to do it.

      “And that it wasn’t his choice doesn’t mean it’s not what Jon wants.”

      As audience we don’t know what Jon wants in season 8 –oops, forgive me, apart from the “I don’t want it” part. We hardly have his POV. (I don’t think we have any; it’s very difficult to know what Jon wants or doesn’t want in season 8, and no matter what we say it’s all interpretation.

      (forgive my snark it’s not aimed at you but at the story)

        Quote  Reply

    104. kevin1989,

      “I don’t see why people still believe Jon wants that crown.”

      You’re right, he probably doesn’t want it. But perhaps that’s Martin’s catch, he’ll get it in spite of what he wants. Just speculating here.

      “He even admitted in 7×03 that he hates being King to Dany.”

      Omg, I’m so glad you have this take on that conversation with Dany! Do you realize that most people think that it was about killing?

      Dany: we all enjoy what we’re good at.
      Jon: I don’t.

      Whether it’s ruling or killing or other, for me this exchange betrays how out of tune these two are. Dany’s referring to Tyrion talking too much, arguing, Jon refers to ruling, because he’s been told in the first ep of season 7 that he’s good at ruling. We all know of course that he’s a competent swordsman and he’s praised throughout. Perhaps it’s about killing, but I tend to connect it to ruling.

      “What he was scared about was that once Dany was out of the picture, Jon would have been crowned king. Another course of duty. He is done with duty, he wants love. But duty is the death of love.”

      Eh, my take is totally different on the duty-love thing.
      I don’t see anything implied here about Jon being king; it’s not an actual discussion about who rules, rather it’s a discussion about what people who share the same (Targaryen) blood and have access to dragon-power do. It’s very subtle about Jon’s identity conflict which was swept under the carpet in season 8. It’s like Tyrion says “Would you do it? No? Well, then you’re better. Do us the courtesy and kill her, will you?”

      “And he even admitted it in season 7 or 8 can’t remember to Sansa that he didn’t want the crown in the north, they crowned him even when Jon didn’t want it. He only took it because it was his duty.”

      I don’t remember any such discussion with Sansa. I remember the “you’re undermining me” dialog, but nothing more. In season 8 ep. 1 he said that becoming king in the North was the “honor of his life”. That doesn’t equal “I don’t want it”.
      In addition it’s cruel, insensitive, and offensive to say “yeah, you made me king, but I don’t want it” to those who have raised you to the office and supported you. Not to mention that it’s incredibly dangerous for political reasons.

        Quote  Reply

    105. In the end, the more I think about it, the more I think that book-wise it’ll be Tyrion at the Wall in the end instead of Jon (if the Wall doesn’t melt). There’s good foreshadow about it.

      But I won’t spoil it for Thron, he’ll have to find it himself.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Efi,

      But Jon’s secret matter a lot. Even in the show. What matters more, the one that sits his ass on the throne in the end or the lives of 100 of thousands of people? In the end what resulted in the bells is more important than the one sitting on the throne in the end.
      And that’s what happens is going to happen in the books also, Jon’s truth is not important for the throne in the end, because there will be no throne in the end. It’s important because it will push Dany to kill 100.000 of innocent people. It changed Dany, it changed Jon, it changed the endgame. It had more effect on the story than just who wins the throne in the end. And for the books it even make’s more sense. Dany knows the one on the throne is fake (even when we don’t know for sure yet as book readers), and another one is being revealed to have a bigger claim then her. At the same time she gets visions that the throne belongs to her. It will push her over the edge.

      And yes there will be changes, but GRRM also said that the main characters end the same, only the road to that point is different. That is what he means with yes and no. He also told even before season 7 started that he told who will sit on the throne in the end, and that he told what the ending is for every main character. But not the journey. Bran will sit on the throne in the end.

      And I still don’t understand why people say Jon’s truth is not important, why is it that somebody sits on the throne, being a king is more important than the lives of 100.000s of people. Jon’s truth was even more important than I would think before the start of season 8.

      And another thing that gives it away. GRRM never wrote for a king or queen in his pov, except Dany. But not a queen for the iron throne, which we even saw in the final, she will never sit on it.
      He wrote for Davos not Stannis, Robb wasn’t a pov, Joffrey wasn’t. Cersei was but I don’t think she will sit on it in the books. It’s Jon C who we read through not FAegon, etc. It’s almost a given.

      But I agree that the ending will be much more different. I still think the time-line is more different. The reason why things happen. I think first we get the battle with the WW then Dany comes into play and the love with Jon will end before it can really start, because it happens after the defeat of the WW. Tyrion is also much darker etc.

      And maybe in the books the truth bomb will be a bit different, and the north knows it, but I think he will never be crowned in KL. But who knows, maybe you’re right, but I personally think Jon will not be crowned in books.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Efi,

      Really do people think it’s about killing? Jon is not even that great at it, yes he is good at winning a duel, but that’s something different then killing.

      And I think like the books people maybe even Sansa in the books push the Jon-agenda, which only Varys does in the show. And Jon keeps telling, I don’t want it. And it result in the same thing, he kills Dany, he is being imprisoned, he is exiled, maybe the way is different. I think in the books he will in fact be sentence to death by the unsullied, but maybe Jorah let him escape. (If he survives that long in the books), like Tyrion in SoS ending. And he goes north, as far north as he can go.

      Or maybe martin will let it go with a big battle with the north and the unsullied. In which the north wins and restore peace. And Jon decides himself to go north. Or the lords of Westeros instead of the unsullied force Jon to exile. Maybe the reason will be: No more Targ blood in westeros.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Efi,

      It was in 8×01 if I remember correctly can be wrong. He said something like that they crowned him, that it was not his choice, that he never wanted it. Wasn’t it that scene together with Sansa in 8×01. hmm time to watch again.

      Efi,

      Wouldn’t that be something. I hope at least that winds gives us more of an insight for what the end brings.

      And what do you think about my take on how Dany leaves Merreen in the books

      That she things Baristan works for the harpy and executes him even when he was the one fighting against the harpy and keeping the peace. And that, that will be the first sign of Dany’s dark turn in the books. It also make sense why they killed him that soon in the show

        Quote  Reply

    109. What an incredible range of scenes to choose from! Season 8 had so many moments I loved that choosing only five for this award was borderline impossible. I rewatched the entire season yet again so that everything would be fresh in my mind, but that only made it harder! Ultimately, I went with the scenes that are STILL making me cry after at least a dozen viewings (or, in the case of my top pick, delivering an unquantifiable “FUCK YES!” thrill of triumph and catharsis. Even then, I still had to make some agonizing cuts. So now, before I change my mind …

      1. The climactic sequence of “The Long Night” – Theon and Jorah fall, and Arya kills the Night King (this was the one mortal lock, as for me, it’s easily one of my 5 best moments for the entire series)

      2. Jon, Sansa, and Arya’s final fates are revealed at the end of the Iron Throne

      3. Jon kills Daenerys and Drogon destroys the Iron Throne

      4. Jaime and Cersei Lannister are reunited before dying in each other’s arms

      5. Arya survives the battle, finds the white horse and rides away

      Other scenes that I STRONGLY considered, in no particular order …

      -The knighting of Brienne of Tarth by Jamie Lannister (it was torture to leave this one off the list, but that’s a testament how incredibly strong Season 8 was in my book! Fortunately, it seems to be garnering a lot of love from other posters! I strongly suspect it’ll make the final cut, and I’ll be happy to see it there.)
      -Cleganebowl – The brothers meet and fight one last time
      -Arya runs through the battle of King’s Landing and tries to save a woman and her child
      -In the battle of Winterfell, the Dothraki charge and all their flaming arakhs go out
      -The people in Winterfell ready for battle to the sound of “Jenny of Oldstones”
      -Daenerys hears the bells and lays waste to King’s Landing while Jon stops a Northerner attacking a woman
      -In The Long Night, chased by wights, Beric and Sandor help Arya
      -Jon and Dany have an emotional meeting, before the battle of King’s Landing
      -Sandor encourages Arya to forget vengeance and they say goodbye
      -Sansa reunites with Theon, and he pledges himself to Winterfell
      -Brienne fills in Jaime’s pages in the Book of Brothers
      -Jon bids farewell to Sansa, Arya & Bran
      -Sam learns that Dany executed his father and brother
      -Daenerys gives a speech before her army, victorious, and Tyrion quits as her Hand
      -Tyrion says goodbye to Jaime
      -Arya and Jon’s reunion at the Godswood
      -Sansa reunite with Theon, and he pledges himself to Winterfell
      -Missandei is executed on the walls of King’s Landing
      -Jon reunites with Sam and discovers his true heritage
      -The north mourns and burns the dead after the battle
      -A captive Tyrion tries to persuade Jon to kill Daenerys

      I’d happily rattle off even more candidates … but that’s already most of the nominees’ list! I’ll save my more extended thoughts on what I love about each of these scenes for the final round, because I can’t do justice to all of them here. My post would be several thousand words long!

        Quote  Reply

    110. kevin1989,

      You’ve been a busy lad this evening writing great comment after great comment. This succinct point is utterly key to the story:

      “But Jon’s secret matter a lot. Even in the show. What matters more, the one that sits his ass on the throne in the end or the lives of 100 of thousands of people? In the end what resulted in the bells is more important than the one sitting on the throne in the end.”

      That echoes Davos saying in Series 7, “It won’t matter whose skeleton sits on the Iron Throne.” The easy answer to your question is…those innocent victims matter. Ironically, even that situation is grey. If 200.000 people died horribly but that’s the only way to have saved even more lives, maybe the sacrifice was justified. That reasoning (rationalisation?) was part of the justification for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Another way of justifying the sacrifice is that it led to leadership (Tyrion and Bran) that will make a better future for survivors and their descendants. Yet even Tyrion could not justify it. Neither could Ned Stark. In Series 1 Ned spared Cersei’s children through the madness of mercy ; even with death looming, he did not regret it. I agree with you and him. IMO, if we accept throwing away so many innocent human lives for some political end, we are monsters. How tragic that only Varys realised how critical Jon’s identity was AND was willing to risk his life to make him king to prevent a holocaust. Varys, who had given succour to Ned, also died to protect innocents.

        Quote  Reply

    111. kevin1989,

      He probably did, lol. Then perhaps that’s the catch. Jon not wanting to be king. In the books he repeats also like a broken record “WF belongs to my sister Sansa” (that boy needs to learn vocabulary, lol). He doesn’t want to take her inheritance away from her (he doesn’t know that Bran and Rickon are alive).

      I’m not sure about Barristan’s role in the books. He’s not very bright, so I think he’ll be responsible for a major screw-up. Perhaps he’ll execute Hizdar for the attempted poisoning of Dany and this will destroy whatever possibilities there are for pacification in Meereen. If Dany executes him later, this would make room for Tyrion. In any case, he’s gone. spoiler

        Quote  Reply

    112. kevin1989,

      He probably did, lol. Then perhaps that’s the catch. Jon not wanting to be king. In the books he repeats also like a broken record “WF belongs to my sister Sansa” (that boy needs to learn vocabulary, lol). He doesn’t want to take her inheritance away from her (he doesn’t know that Bran and Rickon are alive).

      I’m not sure about Barristan’s role in the books. He’s not very bright, so I think he’ll be responsible for a major screw-up. Perhaps he’ll execute Hizdar for the attempted poisoning of Dany and this will destroy whatever possibilities there are for pacification in Meereen. If Dany executes him later, this would make room for Tyrion. In any case, he’s gone.

      (ok, I tried again with spoilers. I just don’t have it me, lol. So I upload it again because it’s stuck in purgatory and there’s a good chance only I am seeing it on my screen)

        Quote  Reply

    113. Efi,

      [ spoiler ] your spoiler comments [ / spoiler]

      Remove the extra spaces between the word spoiler and the brackets, and the front slash and brackets before publishing your comment.

      In other words, use the template above, just remove any spaces within the brackets.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Wow this was tough! I went for Jamie knighting Brienne, Jenny of Oldstones and Long Night related scenes as I feel episodes 2 & 3 are my favourites of the season. The list is long but I wonder how many like me pick a few early then had to stew how use the last couple of votes further down the list.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Mr Derp,

      Thanks for the tip. I thought I’ve been doing that, lol, but apparently my mind doesn’t work the same way as normal people’s do so I’ve been doing it the wrong way. Perhaps the next time it’ll work.

        Quote  Reply

    116. This is a “hanging chad” vote. I will be a bad netizen and fail to submit a valid vote. For favourites, I think I would have voted for:

      Big dramatic moments in Bran’s character arc and storyline for my top two. These would help to make this storyline deeply satisfying.

      Then for my next two, I would go for the big dramatic moments in Sansa’s character arc and storyline. These would help to make this storyline deeply satisfying.

      Then Jon killing Daenerys as the final of the five – because it was central to the story.

      I enjoyed some of the listed scenes when watching them going forward but now they annoy me looking back. They were irrelevant to the story and characters arcs – meaning if they were edited out the series, the character arcs/story/endgame would be unaffected.

        Quote  Reply

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