Winds of Winter twist to involve dead Game of Thrones character

game-of-thrones-winds-of-winter

In an new interview with IGN, George R.R. Martin dishes on a previous plot that he has indeed decided to go through with. He also talks writing delays, working on Game of Thrones, and the show’s surpassing of the books.

On the “twist” Martin says:

I have decided to do that, yes. It’s something that involves a couple characters one of whom is dead in the show but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do this, unfortunately.”

Sadly, even Martin says that doesn’t narrow it down much considering there are some odd 15 characters dead on the show yet alive in the books.

Check out the full video below!


 

In other Game of Thrones news, Michele Clapton won the award for Excellence in Fantasy Television Series for her costume work with the show! Well done and congratulations!

Clapton_in_costumes_department

Check out all the winners and nominees for the Costume Designers Guild here.

Who do you think the plot revolves around? What do you think could happen? Let us know below!

321 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. George has mentioned before about a twist he thought up about a character, but for some reason memory tells me it was about Sansa, not a dead-on-show, not-in-books person. Anybody else remember this? Something about a storyline having to come about organically for the character, not a twist for the sake of being different from the path the show has taken.

        Quote  Reply

    2. RandomSand:
      My bet is on

      She doesn’t exist in the show (and a replacement character is not the same) so… no. Plus, he mentioned that prologue before he mentioned the twist. Definitely not her.

        Quote  Reply

    3. It could also be Shireen…I think book readers maybe already assume that though(?)

      Edit: but there’s also Barristan Selmy….

        Quote  Reply

    4. Stannis is my gut reaction, but it could be anybody. Did he not complain a great deal when they killed off an early but tertiary character? Was it Ros?

        Quote  Reply

    5. Does anybody else get the sense that this is a reaction to the show overtaking the books? It feels like GRRM is purposely trying to change parts of the story in order for him to say the books going to be worth reading once the show spoils it.

        Quote  Reply

    6. RandomSand,

      That is a great bet. I also think it could be

      Jeyne, as if I recall, she is intended to be in the prologue, and I read a theory somewhere about her proclaiming Roslyn Frey’s (I can’t remember her name, Edmure’s wife) son as Jeyne’s own son, heir to the King in the North, after an attack on them (Edmure, Roslyn, Jeyne) orchestrated by Bfish while being moved as hostages to Casterly Rock. THAT would be a twist. I don’t know if I explained it well.

        Quote  Reply

    7. trarecar,

      I don’t if you have read the books or not but

      Mance takes some wildling women and infiltrates Winterfell, then later when Jon receives the ‘pink letter’, the author of the letter says that Mance and his women were captured (don’t remember if the letter said they were dead

        Quote  Reply

    8. Mance, Barristan, or Stannis.

      Didn’t he mention at one point that he was thinking about killing off a major female characters that he hadn’t originally?

        Quote  Reply

    9. Im going with Barry falling to his death from Rhaegal or Viserion during the battle for Meereen. He rides one to battle the arriving Ironborn.

        Quote  Reply

    10. The show is canon now. GRRM has to stop creating fanfiction and stick to the main plot of the source material (the show). 😉

        Quote  Reply

    11. Stannis is Azor Ahai after all! Seriously, I wonder if it’s a minor or major character? Anyone care to write a comprehensive list of all dead characters in the series that are alive on the books?

        Quote  Reply

    12. Fienix:
      George has mentioned before about a twist he thought up about a character,but for some reason memory tells me it was about Sansa, not a dead-on-show, not-in-books person.Anybody else remember this?Something about a storyline having to come about organically for the character, not a twist for the sake of being different from the path the show has taken.

      The only thing Sansa-related that I remember him saying was regarding her controversial chapter, that was moved from aFFC to WoW

        Quote  Reply

    13. Dead in the show alive in the books pretty much limits it to Stannis, Mance, Barristan, Jeyne, or Jojen, and Jojen is probably a stretch.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Who cares? Already struggling to avoid falling into irrelevance, I see. It’s inevitable. You brought this on yourself. Now accept the consequences instead of trying to pimp lame twists.

        Quote  Reply

    15. I can’t recall how to do spoilers >.<

      Well … it’s not a spoiler, it’s a guess.

      Barristan turns out to be one of Dany’s three betrayals.

        Quote  Reply

    16. mau:
      GRRM desperately wants to stay relevant.

      Agreed. Same as WotW apparently, as GRRM Has already States some four years ago that this character is khal jhaqo.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Essos: Barristan Selmy, Hizdahr zo Loraq, Xaro Xan Daos
      The North: Jon Snow 🙂 , Stannis, Mance, Shireen, Selyse, Jojen
      Other Westeros: Myrcella, maybe LSH

      I don’t think Jeyne Westerling can be the one since she’s not on the show at all.

      I would bet that the “twist” is about the authorship of the pink letter, with the two characters he’s got in mind being Ramsay and Mance.

        Quote  Reply

    18. To many characters have been killed before their time in show so they could rush to finish the story in seven seasons with only ten episodes per season. Some of them are Mance, Pyr, Grenn, Stanis, Jeyne, Myrcella, Jojen, Barristan and several in Meeren.

        Quote  Reply

    19. The more he diverges from the show, the better, imho. This silliness indicates that GRRM is not under any contractual obligation to keep his ASoI&F vision consistent with the “drafted with D&D” HBO version. Expect many more divergences in the future. As indicated by the changes from the initial 1993 outline, and now echoed with this odd disclosure, the tale is told in the telling.

      Maybe it’s Jojen? Mance? Maybe Selmy! Stannis? Perhaps Shireen? Fun to speculate the possible differences!

        Quote  Reply

    20. The thing that is discouraging from GRRMs response is that he makes it seem that he hasn’t even started writing this twist yet. He did say it was going to be in WoW (not DoS), right? Sigh

        Quote  Reply

    21. Lisa:
      So, he’s going out of his way to do something the show can’t do and letting the show influence his story.That pretty lame George.

      This times 1,000.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Im a little appalled STILL at all the anger targeted at GRRM… really? Is that really necessary? The damage is done. The books are not going to be finished before the end of the series. Being a book reader AND a watcher on the Boobtube I find it interesting that fans are still trying to roast the author. Geesh folks….. let it go!!

        Quote  Reply

    23. Hodors Bastard:
      The more he diverges from the show, the better, imho. This silliness indicates that GRRM is not under any contractual obligation to keep his ASoI&F vision consistent with the “drafted with D&D” HBO version. Expect many more divergences in the future. As indicated by the changes from the initial 1993 outline, and now echoed with this odd disclosure, the tale is told in the telling.

      Maybe it’s Jojen? Mance? Maybe Selmy! Stannis? Perhaps Shireen? Fun to speculate the possible differences!

      Agreed. At this point, I am happy that the last two books will be different so I can enjoy even MORE of the world of Westeros. Bonus!

        Quote  Reply

    24. GRRM is somewhere near finished with respect to TWOW. As of last summer, he was hoping to finish by the end of the year. Obviously that planned failed, but it should be clear that this “twist” is something that occurs near the end of the book, probably in that POV character’s final chapter, when big “twists” are likely to occur. Thus, short-range speculation based on where we are at the end of ADWD is pretty aimless, as there is an entire book between what we have and the point that this even will occur.

      As side points: If it were Stannis, that would mean he survives until near the end of TWOW. That, in turn, would make it kinda possible for him to sacrifice Shireen. As it stands, it is entirely unclear how this would happen in the books, given their geographical separation and Stannis’s short life expectancy. As for Selmy, I don’t see much chance of him surviving the upcoming battle he is confronted with, and it is hard to imagine him having some big “twist”, being so straight-laced. Mance is more of a wildcard. Myrcella makes some sense, too.

        Quote  Reply

    25. The Bastard:
      Does anybody else get the sense that this is a reaction to the show overtaking the books? It feels like GRRM is purposely trying to change parts of the story in order for him to say the books going to be worth reading once the show spoils it.

      Well, I started reading the books some months ago, after the end of season 5, and they were absolutely worth reading, even if I already knew most of the story. I’m sure I’m not the only one. He must have sold much more books thanks to the show, so I don’t think GRRM is worried about the sales… Books and show started to differ long time ago. There’s a lot of things and characters missing, or changed, or dead before the time… And I presume they’ll differ even more in the future.

        Quote  Reply

    26. The twist is that, at the very end, all of Westeros is in ruins, deserted, and Ned crawls out from under the rubble, sole survivor.

        Quote  Reply

    27. SMH at the ‘show-wankers’ claiming that the show is canon now and the author’s vision is ‘irrelevant.’ These books will still be read when the HBO version seems as quaint and primitive as silent movies. New ‘screen’ versions will be made at least once a generation, for whatever new visual medium has arisen.

      My money’s on Selmy. Hope springs eternal that he will yet get his chance to betray Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    28. He’s talking about Ser Barristan Selmy…
      Jeyne Westerling was not even on the Show.. Talisa Maegyr was another character that took her place, but not the same character.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Chad Brick:
      GRRM is somewhere near finished with respect to TWOW. As of last summer, he was hoping to finish by the end of the year.

      I don’t think that’s evidence of him nearly finishing the book. When he finished AFFC, he thought ADWD would be finished the following year, when in fact, it took 6. GRRM has a bad habit of overestimating his writing speed.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Demonmonkey: Didn’t they stab Jon? I remember Pip being involved.

      Pyp and Grenn are very much alive at the end of ADwD but they weren’t part of the nationalist mutineer bunch.

        Quote  Reply

    31. The warrior whose throat Drogo ripped off in Lhazareen. What was his name? He was the first character GRRM mentioned, and repeatedly, as an example of show divergence. Now he may have some bad blood with Daenerys.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Demonmonkey,

      No. In his attempt to follow the “kill the boy” advice, he sent all four of his best friends in the NW as far away as he could. He sent Edd to .. Long Barrow? (the one with the spearwives) and I believe Pyp and Grenn he sent to Eastwatch. Then he sent Sam on his way, too.

        Quote  Reply

    33. mau,

      Why oh why would you write that kind of spiteful comment? Why, on a fansite? What is your objektive? George made all this happen! He has no need to try and stay relevant, Winds is gonna sell like crazy, so why would you say that if not because of a deep need in you to be spiteful, condesending and rude. Sorry, but it makes me frustrated. This is the first time I joined a ‘fandom’, and I was shocked to learn that it’s a pretty normal thing to actually trashtalk the creator of either the show or the book or both. It’s a tendency in society, that is based on cynisism which will ultimately lead to cyborgs overtaking the world in a few hundred years. You are adding to that tendency. PS: if YOU’RE just trying to be funny, I can definately accept that. Otherwise, start counting electrical sheep!

        Quote  Reply

    34. Damphairintheshowplease!: It’s a tendency in society, that is based on cynisism which will ultimately lead to cyborgs overtaking the world in a few hundred years.

      You know, until that line right there, I thought your comment was honest, if a bit naive. And then you just went right off the deep end there, buddy. Internet cynicism results in cyborgs overtaking the world. That is some classic commenting there. Classic.

      Firannion,
      And uh, never would have read the books without the show. The books really struggle in quality of writing. Without the show, I’m not sure they’d stand the test of time. They certainly aren’t Shakespeare, or Hemingway, Heller, Vonnegut or even Stephen King. They might get remade because the technology will be available to add in some of the things that are just too expensive to produce. But not because the books alone are that important.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Stannis lives!

      1) the chapters released from Winds all seem to clarify divergences of the show from the books (eg Sansa enjoying the world’s largest lemon cake). Stannis in Theon’s chapter diverges existentially from the one on the show.

      2) In the immediate aftermath of S5E9, people in the employ of GRRM took to the net to decry the direction of the show re Stannis

      3) GRRM in an HBO interview clip clarifies that Stannis is still a righteous man (since the character is so prone to misinterpretation by show watchers). By the time of the interview, the plan to give all of Jon Snow’s questionable plot points to Stannis and all of Stannis’s heroics to Jon was already set in stone at the production level.

      GRRM knows that he can be in the pantheon with Tolkien, Herbert etc, but not if he writes dumb-shows for the groundlings like HBO.

      Stannis lives.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Ice Spider:
      Im a little appalled STILL at all the anger targeted at GRRM… really? Is that really necessary? The damage is done. The books are not going to be finished before the end of the series. Being a book reader AND a watcher on the Boobtube I find it interesting that fans are still trying to roast the author. Geesh folks….. let it go!!

      PREACH!

      I started to read through these comments for the speculation, and frankly the jabs at GRRM are not only unnecessary but some of them are just plain mean.

      We wouldn’t be here having this discussion without him, they are HIS characters and if you can’t look at the two worlds as separate of each other, then at least be respectful. He has said multiple times that there is a show Westeros and a book Westeros. I have cursed Dan & Dave my fair share of times, but it doesn’t mean I don’t think they are more or less “relevant” than GRRM.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Oh look, people are reacting to the D&D haters by becoming GRRM haters. That’s very 6th grade of you.

      BTW, this is something George brought up prior to season 5. I think it is Lady Stoneheart related, but my second guess would be Mance.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Am I the only one who suspects that the release dates of WoW and aDoS are actually less far apart the we are led to believe? Though GRRM has shown he takes his time as he pleases – which is his right, by all means – I simply can’t believe he and especially the publishers would be too pleased to see the show end sooner than the books, and I just can’t imagine that they would go and release the final book 3 or 4 years after the show has ended and it loses all relevance. Add to the facts that GRRM is not getting any younger – or looking healthier, for that matter – and a possible season 8 and I would say WoW will be released this year around August and aDoS just in time for season 8 to start off.

        Quote  Reply

    39. HotPinkLipstick,

      Read my comment again. I said cynisism Will lead to cyborgs overtaking the World. Not internet cynisism. That might still overstating it on my part, bit please explain why the first part of my post was naive of all things. Dont you Think it’s a sad paradox that 70 percent of this fandom is mostly critical toward the thing that the fandom is celebrating, and dont you Think that says something about society? The internet is a forum for everyone, the place where everyone has access. It’s a huge step in humanity. And the general language is filled with degrading comments. I’m sorry, but that scares the crab out of me.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Jonathan Coldrain,

      When I finished ADWD, I thought there was no way that Martin would allow the show to catch up to him and that he would right faster than ever. And here we are. Season 6 will be out before Winds, spoiling many plot points. I doubt Martin wanted that to happen either, so I don’t think it’s a matter of what he and his publishers want. He writes when he writes. That’s basically his entire process. So, I don’t think him wanting to finish the books before the series ends is going to have any affect on the outcome.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Jonathan Coldrain,

      Yes, you are the only one. If this was the plan, TWOW would be out by now. There’s no way he would hold off on releasing it and allow the show to reveal Jon’s fate and parentage. No, he’s simply older and slower(shocking) now, and the story has grown to be unwieldy.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Young Dragon,

      True, but going by what we (think we) know so far, there is going to be a lot of story from the previous books, this season. Surely, the Jon and Dany plot are going to be spoiled big time but some things need to be seen as opposed to be read to make more of an impact, certainly for the Unsullied non-book readers, which are – like it or not – currently the main target audience.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Morgoth,

      Like that Harry Potter lady who is still publishing things about the books. So desperate. It’s not hate, guys, but it’s obvious that he misses the attention. And Game of Thrones is cool, but it’s quite poorly written and not exactly a modern classic. It’s gonna lose relevance and be forgotten and he knows it.

        Quote  Reply

    44. “GRRM trying to stay relevant” is probably one of funnier comments I’ve seen. If he released the final book in 2035 it’d be on the best seller list within in a week. He was on the best seller list multiple times over before there was any show. He’s had a niche audience in the sci-fi/fantasy genre since the 70s for crying out loud. “GRRM trying to stay relevant” as your initial response to this (even though it’s something he’s been talking about for over a year) is pathetic and tells me all I need to know.

      This site’s comment section is becoming something worth skipping. And it is like that because of a clique of nasty, rude and arrogant commenters who are JUST as bad as the “book purists” they love to despise. The level of dislike these people have for the author is bizarre.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Jonathan Coldrain: Am I the only one who suspects that the release dates of WoW and aDoS are actually less far apart the we are led to believe?

      No, you’re not the only one. I’ve suspected for a while now that he has been working on the last two books simultaneously, writing out strings of chapters for particular PoVs, then deciding which ones go in TWoW and which ones to hold back for ADoS. Getting this close to the end of the saga, I think that he needs to be extra-careful to get all the setup done in the sixth book that will be required for the payoffs in the seventh. He’s running out of wiggle room and can’t afford to forget any crucial prep work. I think that a gap of a year between the two publication dates is an underestimation, but I don’t think that it will be six years next time either.

      That being said, to claim that the last book ‘loses all relevance’ if it comes out later than the final season of the show is just plain absurd. The books do not need the show to validate their worth. They will be sought out just as eagerly by readers regardless of publication date.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Stargaryen: Like that Harry Potter lady who is still publishing things about the books. So desperate.

      Are you serious? You don’t know the Potter fandom if you think that Rowling is still doing the odd Potterverse project because she ‘misses the attention.’ She is having plenty of fun cranking out her best-selling Cormoran Strike mysteries, but millions of Potter fans still hang on her every tidbit of extra backstory about the wizarding world, because it is a living, breathing place for them. If anyone is desperate there, it is the fans whose hearts broke when they got to the end of Harry’s saga. They beg for more, and every now and then JKR tosses them a crust.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Bryant:
      Ginevra,

      Ros wasn’t in the books at all.

      Wasn’t there a read-headed whore in Wintertown? She didn’t go to KL, so not exactly Ros, but…
      Actually, now that I come to think of it, she was with Theon in WF, and then Ramsay claimed her and she’s dead.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Dead on show, not in books… The first two I thought of were Pyp and Grenn! I miss them! But I don’t think this “twist” will involve them.

      Next I thought of “Robb’s wife” (Talisa on show, Jeyne Westerling in books). Jeyne is going to be in the TWOW prologue. The BwB are definitely up to something in the Riverlands, and what if Jeyne is pregnant…? Perhaps not.

      I can’t see a twist for Barri, I think he’s going to die in Meereen. Ditto Hizzy.

      Meryn Trant’s still alive in the books but I can’t see a twist for him. Same with Martyn Lannister, though he’s getting closer to being the heir to Casterly Rock…

      Mance could provide a few surprises (if the Pink Letter is false).

      Stannis/Shireen/Selyse. Could well be…

      And Myrcella could become part of some (Dornish?) intrigue.

      Also, GRRM said the twist will involve two characters, ONE of whom is dead on the show. Hmm, have to think some more.

        Quote  Reply

    49. talvikorppi:
      Also, GRRM said the twist will involve two characters, ONE of whom is dead on the show. Hmm, have to think some more.

      That detail makes me think it might have something to do with Jojen and Meera, after all.

        Quote  Reply

    50. dave:
      “GRRM trying to stay relevant” is probably one of funnier comments I’ve seen. If he released the final book in 2035 it’d be on the best seller list within in a week. He was on the best seller list multiple times over before there was any show. He’s had a niche audience in the sci-fi/fantasy genre since the 70s for crying out loud. “GRRM trying to stay relevant” as your initial response to this (even though it’s something he’s been talking about for over a year) is pathetic and tells me all I need to know.

      This site’s comment section is becoming something worth skipping. And it is like that because of a clique of nasty, rude and arrogant commenters who are JUST as bad as the “book purists” they love to despise. The level of dislike these people have for the author is bizarre.

      Agreed. It’s starting to sound eerily similar to a certain vitriolic hate site that rants about D&D and show ‘inaccuracies’, only speaking instead about GRRM and the books. Not a lot of this usually, mind you, but this thread sure is disappointing.

        Quote  Reply

    51. thornofhighgarden,

      Jojen and Mance is my bet aswell.
      Funny tough, too see so many people thinking that this means Stannis will live.

      Martin always overestimates the importance of some characters, like when he was talking about that Dothraki that Drogo killed in S2.

      Anyways this is quite irrellevent too me, as I won’t read TWOW, until after the show is done.
      Got fooled once with AFFC, got fooled twice with ADWD. I will not be fooled a third a time.

        Quote  Reply

    52. jentario,

      I don’t really agree with this sentiment, that Martin wants to hurt the show or tries to stay relevant, for only one reason.

      He never wanted to release the Sansa chapter from TWOW, it was his publishers who insisted.
      I think the same thing happens here, they are afraid they may loose sales if the show spoils most of the major twists, so they make him say things like this, too try and boost the sales by convincing people that the books are different enough that it’s still worth buying them.

        Quote  Reply

    53. I’m gonna guess Jeyne Westerling or Mance. Those who are guessing it’s about Stannis… ever hopeful, huh? Anyway, considering the show is overtaking the books, this is a pretty good way for GRRM to market the relevance of TWOW. A bit obvious, but still.

        Quote  Reply

    54. A Man Grown:
      STANNIS THE MANNIS who doesn’t burn his daughter for no good reason

      You’re right, one should only burn a burn a daughter for a good reason! – I’m really Stannis, at least ask the Lord of Light for a coupon from Walmart or something…

        Quote  Reply

    55. I’m not going to bash GRRM, but I really REALLY wish an author wouldn’t let a television show influence his vision…especially D&D’s television show.

      blergh

        Quote  Reply

    56. It would be far more weird if GRRM hadn’t thought of new plot points and changed stuff around during the time it takes to write a book, it’s a normal part of the process. The show will just have to deal with it shuffling the characters used while getting the point across, if the twist is relevant to the main plot at all.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Abyss: You’re right, one should only burn a burn a daughter for a good reason!

      Lmao!

      My guess for the dead character is Mance or Barristan. He had first spoken about this a year ago where he had said that the twist would be on a long time character and that it would involve 3 to 4 characters. Besides, when he spoke of this last year, before S5 had aired, he was a bit vague as to why the show could not incorporate this twist, whereas now he has confirmed that the character is dead on the show. So it’s likely that this character died in S5 maybe?

        Quote  Reply

    58. It does feel a bit petty by GRRM, but I can symphatise with him. His stubborn denial that the show would overtake him, has been shattered and it must have been a rude awakening indeed. Like the show has its own twists, so will the books, partly due to them being different medias. Claiming that one is superior to the other will eventually lead to an unreadable clusterfuck of a fansite and I hope this is not going to happen here when the new season starts. I do not want to read in every thread how events happening on the show won’t happen in the books and why a certain moment does or does not spoil GRRM’s plan for the final two or three books. Of course the show will spoil certain events for bookreaders and of course some things happening in the show will not occur in the books and vice versa. We should count ourselves lucky to experience two high quality versions of a compelling story within the boundaries of the medias they are told in, not bicker over which version is better.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Firannion,

      Oh, both of them will always be important for the hardcore fans. But it was the masses of casual viewers that got them invited to awards and interviewed on big TV shows, meeting presidents and the queen and all that. And that doesn’t happen anymore after the books are over.
      Harry Potter was big, but it will be forgotten quickly, as it should be. She writes like the last century of English literature didn’t happen.

        Quote  Reply

    60. My guess is Myrcella, Shireen or Barristan. These three are imo characters important enough to be able to be a part of a significant twist. Jojen too, but it seems like he will be death soon in the books as well. Mance was kind of underused in the show but my sixth sense tells me it’s not him. When it comes to Stannis, until I see his head on spike or something like that, I consider him alive. The same goes for Jon. Jeyne Westerling will surely be a twist all by herself without this new twisty thing, so I don’t think it’s her. It could be also Hizdarh or what’s his name but I think that his story is more or less over either way.

      Hodor,

      Maybe it is not related to this twist but I remember GRRM saying something like that he visited a european city and a local legend inspired him to write something similar down for one of the characters. Maybe he said it was for a woman? I think if this is the case, it’s understandable that he didn’t think of it in advance.

        Quote  Reply

    61. dave:
      “GRRM trying to stay relevant” is probably one of funnier comments I’ve seen. If he released the final book in 2035 it’d be on the best seller list within in a week. He was on the best seller list multiple times over before there was any show. He’s had a niche audience in the sci-fi/fantasy genre since the 70s for crying out loud. “GRRM trying to stay relevant” as your initial response to this (even though it’s something he’s been talking about for over a year) is pathetic and tells me all I need to know.

      Yes, he is trying to stay relevant, because in a few weeks in every media we will see articles about the plot points from S6, something that GRRM can’t speak about because he will spoil his own books.

      So all attention will be on the HBO, D&D and the actors. They are the ones giving the answers.

        Quote  Reply

    62. I Dream of Spring:
      Anyone care to write a comprehensive list of all dead characters in the series that are alive on the books?

      Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Dagmer, Jojen Reed, Ser Barristan, Selyse, Shireen, Myrcella, Mance Rayder, Hizdarh zo Loraq, LSH, Meryn Trant, Jeyne Westerling and Stannis.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Didn’t he annouce this “twist” on his blog long ago? I remember something like that, or is it a second character he’s talking about now?

        Quote  Reply

    64. Zombies That Were Promised:
      I’m not going to bash GRRM, but I really REALLY wish an author wouldn’t let a television show influence his vision…especially D&D’s television show.

      blergh

      why not?
      He already said how he liked the show rendering of some minor charachters better than his own, so if something good comes out of the show and fits well in the books, why not?

        Quote  Reply

    65. Tywin of the Hill: Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Dagmer, Jojen Reed, Ser Barristan, Selyse, Shireen, Myrcella, Mance Rayder, Hizdarh zo Loraq, LSH, Meryn Trant, Jeyne Westerling and Stannis.

      They could pull Xaro out of his vault, stating somebody freed him. Pyat Pree could have been just a vision. There is still room for the show to bring some characters back without to much twist in the story.

        Quote  Reply

    66. This is really sad. The poor man doesn’t see he’s self-sabotaging at this point. I mean, you can’t produce good writing by navigating the story with a spiteful fixation on plot twists to discredit the show.

      He doesn’t understand that he can’t screw the show over anymore anyway. It will find ways of circumventing the differences like it’s done countless times before and won’t necessarily be any worse for it. Whatever faults the show does have, they are rarely down to the changes from the books.

      All he’ll do is compromise his own vision and work over an unhealthy obsession with someone else’s.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Kosten,

      Be careful,some ass licking sychophant is going to quote Neil Gaiman again with that whole Martin is not your bitch crap because how dare someone question the all mighty creator ? These guys are starting to sound like those old Catholic clerics from the 16-17th century .

        Quote  Reply

    68. The books and the show parted ways long ago.
      Now that the show overtook the books, there will be partisans that would say GRRM is changing the plot just to stay original, whenever something new in the books will be different from the show.
      Inverted roles fan bashing, how nice….

        Quote  Reply

    69. ghost of winterfell,

      This would suit with the character being Mance or Barristan, this was my guess as well. I think it’s Mance, I don’t know why. Anyway, I’m sure D&D would manage to align the story and reach the same ending for most of the main characters.
      And for GRRM, I think it’s only natural for a writer who keeps imagination as one of his main assets to suddently have a new idea which changes the story, an idea he believes is better than his previous one. I was disappointed with TWOW not appearing before season 6 not because I mind spoilers, but I am impacient to read a new book about these fascinating characters and to learn about their fate. But I think it’s the author’s right to finish a book when he chooses and sometimes wanting to do something is not the same with being able to. GRRM, like all of us, is not getting any younger.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Damn…people acting like GRRM is a no-name author. Come on now. Be realistic.

      As far as the twist goes: the character might be dead, but someone can definitely take over their plot and do whatever that character was supposed to do. Simplifying/streamlining is the bread and butter of adaptation.

      I don’t know how to add spoiler tags, so I’ll try and keep this as vague as I can. Tyrion/Varys/Missandei/Grey Worm can take over for Barristan. Jon/Davos/Brienne/Mel can take over for whatever Mance and Stannis are supposed to be doing. Edd/Tormund can take over for Pyp and Grenn.

      Meera/Bran can take over for Jojen (and they’ll certainly need to, as I can’t imagine Meera will have much to do in the cave). Edmure/The Blackfish can take over for Jayne Westerling (unless she’s pregnant, but I think Talisa’s death sealed that, and Jeyne getting the prologue in TWOW makes me think she’s a goner). Arya/Sansa/The Blackfish/Jon can take over certain aspects of the Stoneheart plot.

      Did I miss anyone?

        Quote  Reply

    71. I mean sure,you can talk trash about the show and the creators,insulting them and saying they stupid shit like they advocate rape,even though there is more rape in the books and most of the times is 10 times worse described but because it’s not a visual medium i guess that’s ok in some hypocrite minds . But god forbid you even say one criticism about this man and his writing and you become Hitler .

        Quote  Reply

    72. Tyrion the Myrion:
      I mean sure,you can talk trash about the show and the creators,insulting them and saying they stupid shit like they advocate rape,even though there is more rape in the books and most of the times is 10 times worse described but because it’s not a visual medium i guess that’s ok in some hypocrite minds . But god forbid you even say one criticism about this man and his writing and you become Hitler .

      This 100%

        Quote  Reply

    73. alins tat,

      First of all it’s highly disrespectful to call George that way. I love books and show. Both have their flaws and strengths. I’m really happy that we have two very strong mediums that can tell this beautiful story. Weiss and Benioff are doing great job. It’s entirely George’s fault that show is overtaking books, but all I can hear from is praise. Some book readers thinks that George hates D&D and show just to create this tense atmospehere. Nope. Btw that lazy ass as you call him…without him there will be no books and that means no show. Keep that in mind and same goes for some individuals here.

      Tyrion the Myrion,

      Criticism can go both ways and it can be pretty nasty. Whether it comes from book readers or show watchers. I’ve seen a lof of hate going both ways and I guess future will be no different.

        Quote  Reply

    74. My position on Martin’s NEW BIG TWIST is simply, ‘I’ll be getting what I want through the show, so I don’t care’. He is a bit of a primadonna, sure – I’m sure everyone remembers his ridiculous stalling ideas (let’s have a prequel season! No, better, a prequel movie! No, I know, let’s split AFFC/ADWD into three complete seasons!) – but, hey, let’s not lower ourselves to the spite level of book purists, shall we?

      One thing I do wonder about, though, is his contract with HBO. Didn’t he, like, sell them the rights to the story and isn’t introducing a new twist a breach of this contract? But again, that’s HBO’s problem, not mine.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Yaga,

      He never said it’s a big twist.

      Hell in season 2 he was saying how Mago, the dothraki Drogo killed will come back and play a part.

      It’s most likely a minor plot-point.

      For example, anything Selmy does in WOW, Tyrion/GW/Varys/Missandei can do aswell.
      Anything Jojen would do in WOW, Bran and Meera can do aswell.
      Same with Stannis, alltough I don’t think he’ll do much more then get beaten in the books, anything he does Jon/Mel/Davos/Sansa and tormund can also do.

      If this is some huge plot point, like Stannis taking the IT or something like this, then I’ll eat my hat.
      This is the same way it was with AFFC/ADWD, we didn’t get Quentyn or Griff yet the story survived, and in my opinion was better because of this.

      Jon Snow's Curling Iron,

      He said it better then me.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Nero Martell,

      And when WOW comes out they’ll cry and scream.
      Some people have a very short memory, this is exactly how it was before AFFC and ADWD came out.
      Especially ADWD, with people trying too convince themselves and others that the story will get better and that AFFC was just a mistake and so on…

      Half the fandom broke that day. I fully expect the same will happen with WOW.

        Quote  Reply

    77. talvikorppi: Also, GRRM said the twist will involve two characters, ONE of whom is dead on the show. Hmm, have to think some more.

      And since most of the “TV-dead” characters we are thinking up are non-POV characters, Selmy being the major exception, it is likely that the other person GRRM is speaking of is a POV character and we will see the twist through their eyes.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Young Dragon: I don’t think that’s evidence of him nearly finishing the book. When he finished AFFC, he thought ADWD would be finished the following year, when in fact, it took 6. GRRM has a bad habit of overestimating his writing speed.

      If you go back and read GRRM’s post and extrapolate from his shifting deadlines, he should be done in a few months. I see no reason to believe that he is not now reaching the finish line for some POVs, and these are the most likely places for big “twists” in the plot. I suspect he has been mulling which way to go on this for a while, and can no longer put it off because he’s reached the end of the road and the chapter has to be written.

        Quote  Reply

    79. This is pathetic. Here comes George… giving you some gimmicky teaser to try and hold your interest just because he can’t be professional and finish a book in a reasonable amount of time. A character is going to die in a Game of Thrones book? Wow!? You don’t say?

      I’m so glad the show came along just so we can have some sort of version of how this story ends. If GRRM had it his way he would just milk it until doomsday.

        Quote  Reply

    80. I haven’t read the books YET, so this will be interesting, if it is in fact true, and will have an impact on the books. I really don’t think it would be something major to be honest. That just wouldn’t make sense for the story of ASOIAF.

      Also, I do see some negative comments towards GRRM, but I don’t think they can be compared to some of the comments I have seen about D&D, and Cogman as another example. (maybe I saw one really bad comment on GRRM here) but the rest are not insulting and calling them rape advocates or garbage humans like I have seen regarding the show creators. Quite different, I would say.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Mihnea,

      I know. We are less than two months away
      And the thing that’s so exciting about the GOT premiere is that it also means better weather (spring time). I live in Canada and winter sucks here!

        Quote  Reply

    82. Deesensfan,

      Can’t wait for spring!
      I have training at my local football club and it’s cold and windy as f***!

      Rained yesterday but the coach didn’t give us a break….It was a nightmere

        Quote  Reply

    83. Mihnea,

      ugh that sucks. Where do you live?

      We had 10 hours of freezing rain here yesterday. So its a nice icey mess right now, but still made it to work on time at 7am!

        Quote  Reply

    84. It’ll be either Mance, Barriston, Myrcella (who we have had proven dead in spoiler images) or Catelyn Stark (unless of course Stoneheart appears on the show). Unless he knows something we don’t Stannis has yet to be proven dead.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Deesensfan,

      Romania.

      We had a preaty mild winter, it’s not the cold that’s the problem, but it rained a lot this month and it was quite windy….so in general a preaty shit weather.

      We didn’t had much snow this year…mostly it was just mud..

        Quote  Reply

    86. Chad Brick: If you go back and read GRRM’s post and extrapolate from his shifting deadlines, he should be done in a few months.

      Doubt it. Martin wants the book out ASAP. His publishers want the book out ASAP. Were he truly that close to completion, I think they would have moved unfinished chapters to the next (hypothetical) book and polished the chapters that were integral to TWOW. Similar to what they did with ADWD.

      According to Martin, the fourth Dunk and Egg story was mere weeks away from being delivered. That was two years ago.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Yeah, the ending will be the same for all the major characters, and if the changes he makes means that the journey to get to that ending will differ in some degree in both the mediums, it’s a good thing, I think.

        Quote  Reply

    88. The bigger deal GRRM makes of this, the less interesting the concluding books become. He should just write his novel story his way and not try so hard to play up the differences between his books and the show.

      I do wonder if the show never existed, maybe GRRM would have finished the novels by now. Maybe even delivered some more Dunk and Egg tales.

      mau:
      Allison,

      And George Lucas created Star Wars, that doesn’t mean that Disney didn’t destroy it with the sequels.

      There. I fixed it for you. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    89. I do not think most here have a problem with the books and show being different to some respect. GRRM obviously can do what he wants and he should, as long as it is in function to his vision and not to spite the show (even if subconsciously). It is just a bit sad how GRRM has to publicly state there are twists in the books that are impossible to do in the show. In my opinion, it does show his frustration by admitting that he feels he is losing relevance with respect to the universe he himself created. If not, he could just keep quiet, give general interviews and let the new book speak for itself when he finishes it. Both the books and the show, in the end, will be judged by their own merit, not by comparison.

        Quote  Reply

    90. “It’s something that involves a couple characters one whom is dead in the show but not dead in the books.”

      Both characters could be dead in the show, but one may be just barely alive in the books (Stoneheart).

      I think the book twist is Stoneheart is actually Robb. He warged her similar to Varamyr in ADWD prologue, hence Cat’s scratching at her eyes upon death.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Mihnea,
      AH, lucky.
      but hopefully you can get some sun soon

      yeah, I would say we had a mild winter for our standards. it was 18 degrees Celcius on Christmas eve. But when winter actually started on December 29 (first snow storm) it has been non stop!
      And now I just need it to end 🙂 haha

        Quote  Reply

    92. My first bet will be Ser barristan since he mentioned it will be involving three or four characters and because of changes show has made it can’t be done in show….so right now there is hizdar and shavepate and victarion and jorah and Tyrion and BBp and Daario all on meereen …

      It can be mance or jojen or jeyne westerling and BWB if its not Barry ..

      MYrcella is going to be dead anyways and shireen is barely a character in the books…she never was that much of a character like she was in the show..

      I didn’t like when GRRM first mentioned About this twist last year ..even though I don’t respect stannis as a professional I respect him as an author and don’t think he is doing this To spite the show ..

      And another thing to consider is what seems like big twist will not be for the reader because he lists irri rakaro Pyp and grenn and shireen has major characters and complained when mego was killed in S1 …and readers don’t Care about these characters atleast not those who are related with dany .

        Quote  Reply

    93. Flora Linden,

      Going to make a comment on star wars.

      I don’t know if it’s because the prequels introduced me to the universe or not, but to this day they are my guilty pleasure.

      I still remember, it was 2001 I think, when we finally got it on TV. It was the first big movie we managed to get so early after release. The hype was huge.

      I liked Phantom Menace, the duel of fates is briliant. I liked it so much I went to the cinema too see Clone Wars. This one was a bit poorer, especially the romance part.
      But I loved Revenge of the Sith.

      I don’t know if it’s because I saw them before I saw the originals but I really like the setting of the prequels, a lot more then even the original ones.
      Loved the countless species, hell even loved the politics of it, it felt like a real world.

      The huge scale of it was, to me at least, better then the more personal story in the originals.

      The force awakens, was good but it felt too much that they tried to do ”A New Hope” all over again and completly distance themselves from the prequels .
      Felt like a check-box.

      We got a family relative of a main hero be evil- check
      Hero on a desert planet-check…etc.

      One thing that I agree tough is that Lucas directed the prequels quite badly.
      What they should have done is let him write the story but let someone else direct it.

        Quote  Reply

    94. This is not unsurprising news really. if Martin came out and said that the novel was pretty much the same as GoT, albeit with more depth, it would hurt the sales of the book. By doing this it keeps casual book readers interested.However, there are some caveats to bear in mind (some have been brought up before but I’ll repeat them anyway).

      Martin exaggerates. Remember when he said killing Mago was a big mistake? The twist might not be that big, or D&D might be able to incorporate it in GoT with a similar character. Just because he says they won’t be able to do it, doesn’t mean they can’t. If it is worth including, and possible to do so D&D will do it.

      I also get the impression that writing hasn’t been going to well for him this year so far. In a blog a couple of days ago he described himself as being “tired and… stressed”, which is hardly the most inspiring thing to hear. I bet his publishers want the book to be released shortly after Season 6 finishes. This would increase the publicity of the novel (and more of the purists would swear off the season if they knew the novel was out soon). However, in order to meet this deadline he would have to have finished the book by the end of March, and I don’t think many of us think he’ll do that, especially as he’s on holiday again. Still he’s got around 7 months or so to finish it if he want it out before Christmas.. Good Luck.

      Part of me hopes he doesn’t get them out until after the whole series has finished. I do think it will overall make discussions on GoT nicer, and I’m prepared to wait a bit longer for the books if the show continues to be excellent. I will buy the books, but they are just like any other ordinary book that I read; nice to read, but nothing more. The show, on the other hand, is something I feel I need to discuss online, and is something I look forward to every year.

        Quote  Reply

    95. mau:
      Allison,

      And George Lucas created Star Wars, that doesn’t mean that he didn’t destroy it with the prequels.

      The prequels are a great addition to the Star Wars Universe. So was the The Clone Wars. If anything, Disney has been horrible to the universe so far. The Force Awakens showed no originality and Rebels is a farce compared to The Clone Wars.

      Game of Thrones (television) respects the source material greatly and makes changes due to the medium.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Chad Brick: If you go back and read GRRM’s post and extrapolate from his shifting deadlines, he should be done in a few months. I see no reason to believe that he is not now reaching the finish line for some POVs, and these are the most likely places for big “twists” in the plot. I suspect he has been mulling which way to go on this for a while, and can no longer put it off because he’s reached the end of the road and the chapter has to be written.

      Oh you sweet summer child.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Flora Linden:
      I do wonder if the show never existed, maybe GRRM would have finished the novels by now. Maybe even delivered some more Dunk and Egg tales.

      Well it seems certain that ASOIAF would never be the same global phenomenon that the show is simply because the visual medium of TV worldwide generates so much more publicity and following than printed media can ever hope for. That would mean fewer distractions from the publicity and media circus, and perhaps some greater productivity (or not!).

      That said GRRM himself stated of AFFC “This one was a bitch” to write and this was even before the notion of an adaptation. I still believe it was abandoning the idea of the 5 year gap plan that led to some creative difficulties and that legacy of untangling Meereenese Knot is still behind the delays as much as any external distraction. So his problems are to a good extent self-created and he’s a victim of his own success.

      Anyway it is good to hear him talking about TWoW now after being quiet about it for so long, so maybe he has a new enthusiasm for finishing this.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Cumsprite: Doubt it. Martin wants the book out ASAP. His publishers want the book out ASAP. Were he truly that close to completion, I think they would have moved unfinished chapters to the next (hypothetical) book and polished the chapters that were integral to TWOW. Similar to what they did with ADWD.

      According to Martin, the fourth Dunk and Egg story was mere weeks away from being delivered. That was two years ago.

      “Big twist” chapters ARE integral to the story. I would assume whatever this is, it is “end of book” material. GRRM can’t just publish 85% of a book, with most of what was intended to be everyone’s final POV chapter left out. Those are usually the culminating chapters and the story wouldn’t be fulfilling without them. There are a few chapters that could go either way, I suspect, but not many.

        Quote  Reply

    99. flintstonewielder: Oh you sweet summer child.

      My central estimate is that he is finished in August and the book released in November. That’s assuming he writes even SLOWER than he was writing at the end of last year when he failed to reach his goal of finishing by year’s end. What evidence do you have to the contrary? It seems rather obvious that a “big twist” chapter is likely to be the last chapter for that POV, which is another indication that he is reaching end-game.

      But in any case, I win my bet with mau as long as it is released before 2018. That’s clearly a slam-dunk at this point.

        Quote  Reply

    100. imho order of probability goes to

      1. Stannis
      2. Mance
      3. Grenn (that horn…)

      Also great job michele clapton, the costumes & set work are one of the reasons its so easy to get lost in the show. The small details like the weathering of the clothing really make the show come to life. Consistently excellent, except for the nippples on the SS armor.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Mihnea,

      For those who liked the settings of the prequels, I recomand 3 biowere games.
      Knights of the old Republic 1 and
      KOTOR 2. They have really bag graphics, they where released in 2005-2007, I believe. But the stories are very good.

      There’s also Star Wars the Old Republic, but this one’s a MMO. It has 8 stories from witch 4-6 are really good.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Chad Brick: “Big twist” chapters ARE integral to the story.

      It’s a big twist for a character, not necessarily for the story overall. Not necessarily a twist for a POV or main character at all, in fact!

      Chad Brick: It seems rather obvious that a “big twist” chapter is likely to be the last chapter for that POV

      Is it obvious? You’re the first person I’ve seen who has suggested such a thing.

      Anyway, I believe as you do that TWOW will be released, but I’m not as optimistic as you’re on the date. My best bet would be around the time of season seven —At a guess, sometime after it’s filmed yet before it airs in its entirety. As for ADOS… I’m not so hopeful for it to be released at all.

      Geez. What are we doing. We really need a trailer or something.

        Quote  Reply

    103. flintstonewielder:
      Chad Brick,

      Impressive. So now you know what GRRM can or can not do with the book. Is it you, Anne Groell ?

      I cannot possibly know, only guess based on the evidence. Care to wager?

      Terms of the bet are that assuming we can figure out which chapter this is, that it is either the last or second-to-last in TWOW for the POV involved.

      And you are welcome to double-down on mau’s destined-to-fail bet on the release date any time you want.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Chad Brick: “Big twist” chapters ARE integral to the story. I would assume whatever this is, it is “end of book” material. GRRM can’t just publish 85% of a book…

      (In Mallory Archer voice) CAN! AND HAS!

      And I don’t see how the twist could possibly be integral to the story: Martin was on the fence as to whether to do it at all until now. ASOIAF is a fantasy soap opera, any importance of events/people/deaths is mostly illusory. He’s primarily making it up as he goes along.

        Quote  Reply

    105. ghost of winterfell,

      We can choose the ending we prefer 😉 not that I expect any of them to bring us joy… I’m just trying not to get upset and find what’s best. Life’s hard enough and I joined this site because it made me happy.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Chad Brick: I cannot possibly know, only guess based on the evidence. Care to wager?

      Terms of the bet are that assuming we can figure out which chapter this is, that it is either the last or second-to-last in TWOW for the POV involved.

      And you are welcome to double-down on mau’s destined-to-fail bet on the release date any time you want.

      Oh honey-buns, second semester 2016 is my own guesstimate. Did you steal it from me ? The only difference being that HC will throw on the market whatever they can get from GRRM to try to salvage the cash-in in on GoT S6. But evidence for that ? None. Which reflects your state of knowledge.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Mihnea:
      Cumsprite,

      Said it before I could.

      Martin already released an unfinished book, in fact he released 2 unfinished books!

      Your position does not match Chad´s wishful-thinking world.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Ben Volk:
      Lady Stoneheart?

      I think it’s very obvious it’s her. She’s the character that fits the most with the twist considering this:
      It’s something that involves a couple characters one whom is dead in the show but not dead in the books.
      I don’t know why everyone is voting for Stannis, he’s a goner for sure in the early stages of Winds and he’s not in a good position (both plot-wise and place-wise) to be an active part of an interesting plot twist. Wishful thinking of Stannis fans?

        Quote  Reply

    109. Right now I am thinking either Irri or Myrcella, but I don’t have a solid reason for either person.

      In the books Dany cares about Missendei but Irri and Jhiqui are closer to her in age. Therefore, I think the betrayal of one of the women that has been with her the longest would hurt the most.

      I feel like there has to be more with Myrcella in Dorne. Perhaps that is based on my dissatisfaction with the Dorne plot on the show. Ellaria became spiteful and dumb. Perhaps she never was truly capable/stable but I just could not stand her in the show. The one thing the books and show seemed to agree on was that these women derived power from the throne they were disrespecting by treating Doran like garbage.

      …and whether the final books come out years after the show is done or not, I am going to read them.

      I actually rather liked Feast. It was Dance that made me want to murder Dany and Tyrion.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Mihnea,

      I thought you were only a footbal fan, not a football player! Good for you, it’s great to be able to be an active participant in something you like so much. Are you a professional player?

        Quote  Reply

    111. Seriously makes me think the Jon Snow plot twist (being resurrected) will not happen in the show… only in the books??? Am I over thinking this?

        Quote  Reply

    112. Abyss,

      Touche haha. I guess there’s never a good reason. But it could have been developed better. In the show it doesn’t feel like a gut-wrenching, damning but understandable choice, he just comes off as an idiot.

        Quote  Reply

    113. High Sparrow,

      Sure, I’ll admit to wishful thinking. The Theon preview chapter from Winds made me think Stannis would prevail in the battle against Ramsay though, so his pathetically easy dispatching on the show came as something of a shock.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Absolutly not! 🙂
      But not for lack of trying, my father really tried to make me one.

      It’s a local football team. We aren’t paid but we do get some money if we win.
      I do it mostly for fun.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Super curious about this! I was listening to the vid this morning and my initial reaction when the IGN reporter put the question was that I did indeed heard about this twist before back last summer. He was talking about a “she” when he was in Hamburg and that maybe the city inspired him.

      “There is this figure which I always knew that they will die, from the moment of their introduction they werw doomed to die. But I did not know how she would die. Since last night, I know it. Maybe it was Hamburg, no idea. ”

      (Used google translate sorry for any mistakes)

      http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/literatur/game-of-thrones-autor-george-r-r-martin-in-deutschland-a-1040107.html

      I can’t find an English news outlet that picked up this news unfortunately, but I had the German site bookmarked, so that’s the extent of my contribution.

      I am thinking Mel.

        Quote  Reply

    116. plop_plop:
      Seriously makes me think the Jon Snow plot twist (being resurrected) will not happen in the show… only in the books??? Am I over thinking this?

      No. You’re underthinking it. His resurrection is much closer to being confirmed due to the show than to the books! We know for a fact it’s happening in the show. In the books… not really. I mean, I’m sure it will happen, of course, but still.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Mihnea,

      Even if it’s not for money, fun is as important imo! I wish there had been non-professional theatre circles in my country like the ones in Great Britain, I would have liked to join one. Just to be able to do something I like and watch when it’s done by professionals.
      Go Mihnea’s team!

        Quote  Reply

    118. Ser Not Appearing In This Series:

      That would mean fewer distractions from the publicity and media circus, and perhaps some greater productivity (or not!).

      That’s probably the major factor. The hoopla magnifies everything. Even if the writing situation with GRRM remains the same without the series, there would have been less pressure to deliver, and fans wouldn’t be as irked with the waiting time. Of course, GRRM grossly underestimated the pace of the show, and now he must deal with the consequences.

      Mihnea:

      One thing that I agree tough is that Lucas directed the prequels quite badly.
      What they should have done is let him write the story but let someone else direct it.

      Mihnea, I suspect Lucas sold the rights to Disney to do exactly that – except Disney had no intention to do exactly that. From what I’ve read, Lucas gave Disney his story treatments/outlines for Episodes 7, 8 and 9, which Disney then tossed aside because the studio didn’t find them interesting. That pretty much sums up where Disney’s priorities were.

      I would have loved to know what Lucas had originally planned for the sequel trilogy.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Pigeon,

      Doesn’t get much better below this as I was reading comments backwards.

      It is a sad day when an author cannot speak of his own damn work or tease about it (which would be similar with at teaser trailer but you don’t see anyone bitching about that, do we?!) without being judged as “trying to stay relevant”. It’s just not normal. What should he be talking about?! Puppies and Hugos?! The game with the egg shaped thingy that’s not really played with the foot?! WHAT?!

        Quote  Reply

    120. Tyrion the Myrion:
      Firannion,

      Someone is pissed,what a sore loser you are .

      I don’t understand. Can you elaborate? What is this competition that you perceive? What have I lost?

      I will continue to look forward to the books regardless of what ‘spoilers’ are divulged on the show. Already knowing what happens does not deter me from rereading beloved books, and getting new things out of them each time; so why would my pleasure in TWoW and ADoS be diminished by the TV show having happened sooner? To me the show is like a snack to tide me over between meals. The books are the Real Thing.

        Quote  Reply

    121. TormundsWoman:
      Pigeon,

      Doesn’t get much better below this as I was reading comments backwards.

      It is a sad day when an author cannot speak of his own damn work or tease about it (which would be similar with at teaser trailer but you don’t see anyone bitching about that, do we?!) without being judged as “trying to stay relevant”. It’s just not normal. What should he be talking about?! Puppies and Hugos?! The game with the egg shaped thingy that’s not really played with the foot?! WHAT?!

      If Martin restrained himself to just his blog and a few choice interviews, I would see your point. But our queso-stained wretch is too big a star to be relegated to such paltry environs. He must needs a signal boost as befitting a man of his stature else his ego would shrivel and die.

      The guy puts himself out there a lot, he is going to take some lumps.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Tyrion the Myrion:
      lalla,

      Having to deal years with book purists does that to you .

      What? Are you like 12? How childish and rude so many of you are being. Did you get bullied in school and are now mad at the world because of it? Talk about a case of you need to “get over it”. You and I am sad to say a very good handful of people agreeing with the GRRM bashing.

      No matter what happens in the TV plots for the next few seasons, this is STILL and always WILL be GRRM’s story to tell. There would be no story at all without him and the REAL ASoIaF is in the books, not the show. I adore D & D and I adore GRRM. It is so hard for me to understand how people are so vitriolic towards one or the other. They are both doing the job the way they can, slow or to meet TV deadlines.

      There is no fault here and all this “book wankers” “show apologist” crap is really weighing on my heart. There are some really intelligent and clever people who post here that I love to read every single thing they write and I respect it. It is hard to be respectful of those who can’t rise above their own petty needs to be able to see something outside their own world of relevance.

      The tale does indeed tell. Anyone saying that JKR is writing more that still involves the HP main plot to just stay relevant knows nothing of JKR, her fans or her worth and what she still has to give to the readers….the millions and millions of readers.

      All of it just turns me right off. And makes me sad. I am sorry to those who can see both sides of how a genuine book is written or how the television industry rolls, no matter what and enjoy both for what they are. You deserve better and so do D & D and GRRM. It is called respect, even if you disagree with either show or books.

      You haters, please list your publications so I may judge your worthiness to be such a judgmental lot. Alternately point me to your vast decades of popular work that has led to the largest television series ever. I am anxious to see your bounty of creativity.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Oh look, people are reacting to the D&D haters by becoming GRRM haters. That’s very 6th grade of you.

      BTW, this is something George brought up prior to season 5. I think it is Lady Stoneheart related, but my second guess would be Mance.

      Bravo to you! It never ceases to amaze me how petty we humans can become, not unlike petulant children….books or show..read one, watch the other and personally don’t hate any of the people who brought them to me. Ultimately, we want to be entertained to remove ourselves from the day to day stress of…well, living…if we then find stress in the entertainment, shouldn’t we remove that particular entertainment? People, if you watch the show and enjoy it great! If you read the books and enjoy them great! But to sit here and complain about either is pretty small considering that you are watching/reading the material you are complaining about. Don’t like either? Don’t indulge in it.
      Sorry for the rant, slinks away now.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Firannion: The books are the Real Thing.

      Whilst I completely agree with the rest of your post, I disagree strongly with this part. This is fiction; there simply is no real version. There are just two different interpretations of the same story. Of course, for you the books are the real version, but other people believe that the sky is blue because we live inside the eye of a blue-eyed giant. The point is it doesn’t matter what you, me, or anyone else thinks about it. The books are the real version for some people, the show for others, whilst some people probably just appreciate the story as a whole, and are not bothered about which is “real” when we are talking about fiction.

        Quote  Reply

    125. JCDavis:
      You haters, please list your publications so I may judge your worthiness to be such a judgmental lot.Alternately point me to your vast decades of popular work that has led to the largest television series ever.I am anxious to see your bounty of creativity.

      George Martin has never played football, held public office or won a Hugo for best novel, and yet he will pontificate on these subjects endlessly and sometimes with heat. So …

        Quote  Reply

    126. JCDavis,

      Oh wait,i forgot there is the whole you are not a writer and therefore you can’t judge him argument,thanks to this guy here for remembering me . Also i seem to have hurt your feelings since you wrote such a long ass paragraph for something you clearly have issues with,did you cry when you made this post ?

        Quote  Reply

    127. Firannion,

      Blah,blah,blah,books are the real story,blah,blah….wait,did you just say you are looking forward to the future book releases,hahahahahahahahahaha,that’s the best joke i heard today,thank you for the entertainment !

        Quote  Reply

    128. Yaga:
      One thing I do wonder about, though, is his contract with HBO. Didn’t he, like, sell them the rights to the story and isn’t introducing a new twist a breach of this contract? But again, that’s HBO’s problem, not mine.

      Martin has never let anyone affect the way he writes his story. Not his editors, not his fans. I doubt he would willingly sign any contract which would limit his story to the one HBO wants to tell.
      “What I can control is what happens in my books”

        Quote  Reply

    129. Tyrion the Myrion,

      Ya know what? I certainly want to cry reading some of these posts. It says a ton about you that it makes you feel good to know that.

      I am out. This is so high school bullshit. To participate in it brings me down to a level I don’t want to descend to.

        Quote  Reply

    130. TormundsWoman,

      “She” is refering to “figure”, which is feminine in German, so sadly it does not give away the gender of the character in question.

      (It would be interesting to read the original quote in English though, but they did not publish it as far as I can see…)

        Quote  Reply

    131. JCDavis,

      Wow,really ? I would suggest to grow up and learn that the internet is full of people who post different opinions some in a respectful way and some in a not very respectful way,you can’t control people to adhere to your standards of sensibility . Speaking of high school,how did you even manage to survive it if you get so emotional over internet posts ?

        Quote  Reply

    132. Jeb,

      I did say ‘to me.’ I nearly always prefer books to their screen adaptations; some people watch TV constantly and never pick up a book; and there’s a whole wide spectrum of people in between. All to the good. I was merely reacting to someone attacking me as a ‘sore loser,’ as if this were some race in which the books are somehow diminished if the TV version divulges some of their secrets first. My point is that the show cannot take away from the books, and no one ‘loses.’ That’s all.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Zenith,

      He kind of canonballed into his legacy, and is growing more and more irrelevant with every season. Do yoy honestly think that anyone aside from a small subset of hardcore fans will give two shits about this series ten years in the future when GRRM releases book 8 and finally finishes this mess of intereining shock value subplots? The answer is no, absolutely not

        Quote  Reply

    134. jentario,

      I bet Firannion doesn’t even know that out of the millions who are watching the show,probably only a quarter if that has actually read the books and of those who did read it i guarentee to you that after the show ends most of them will forget about the books as they are not the hot thing anymore .

        Quote  Reply

    135. JCDavis,

      I understand you wanting to bow out of the discussion when the level of vitriol and sarcasm gets so totally unfiltered by any modicum of respect or politeness. But I wish you wouldn’t go. Voices of reason and moderation are needed here, and greatly appreciated by those of us who don’t get their jollies by flinging their free-floating hostility around.

        Quote  Reply

    136. JCDavis:
      Tyrion the Myrion,

      Ya know what? I certainly want to cry reading some of these posts. It says a ton about you that it makes you feel good to know that.

      I am out.This is so high school bullshit. To participate in it brings me down to a level I don’t want to descend to.

      When you say things like “What? Are you like 12? How childish and rude so many of you are being. Did you get bullied in school and are now mad at the world because of it? Talk about a case of you need to “get over it”.” You don’t get to pretend that you are on some high horse while bullshit psychoanalyzing someone across the internet.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Tywin of the Hill: Martin has never let anyone affect the way he writes his story. Not his editors, not his fans. I doubt he would willingly sign any contract which would limit his story to the one HBO wants to tell.
      “What I can control is what happens in my books”

      Gotta call bullshit on this. It has already happened several times. Martin said he was impressed by how HBO treated Osha and would take that into consideration in his writing. Let’s also not forget the reader inserts he did for a number of folks, as a fanservice gimmick I guess? Hell, at the very start of his writing someone CONVINCED him to put the dragons in. I could go on, but I hope you get the point.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Kosten:
      navigating the story with a spiteful fixation on plot twists to discredit the show… screw the show over anymore… compromise his own vision and work over an unhealthy obsession with someone else’s.

      Wow, projecting much?

        Quote  Reply

    139. TormundsWoman:
      Pigeon,

      Doesn’t get much better below this as I was reading comments backwards.

      It is a sad day when an author cannot speak of his own damn work or tease about it (which would be similar with at teaser trailer but you don’t see anyone bitching about that, do we?!) without being judged as “trying to stay relevant”. It’s just not normal. What should he be talking about?! Puppies and Hugos?! The game with the egg shaped thingy that’s not really played with the foot?! WHAT?!

      Pretty much it. I don’t think I’ve seen such a snarky, mean-spirited thread on this site in awhile. Ah well. Your ‘foot’ball comment was awesome! 😀

        Quote  Reply

    140. Firannion,

      You’re right with what you say. Most of the sane people on both sides of the debate want the books to be as good as they can possibly be, and the same with the show. Some people are always going to prefer one or the other, but as long as you don’t shit on the other (beyond saying what you prefer and why) who really cares.

      When you said the books were real it sounded like it might be just a general comment, because there wasn’t an “In my opinion” before it, although there in the paragraph as a whole. Just because someone has said something is their opinion doesn’t always mean that the next sentence will be as always, but I wouldn’t expect to see “In my opinion” before every statement. It is harder with the written word I guess. I only really used it to exemplify my point (and to sneak a quote in) anyway.

      Edit: Also, come on people this isn’t westeros.org. Let’s not lower ourselves to those standards.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Cumsprite,

      He wrote more Osha scenes because he wanted too. He wrote dragons into the story because he wanted too. (I doubt he would write 5 books about them if he didn’t like them.) I don’t know what a “reader insert” is, but if he made them, I’m sure it was because he liked them.
      But I doubt he would sign a legally binding document which would stop him from improvising or changing his books if he ever wished to do so. No one’s going to sue him if he decides to scrap Osha’s scenes from WoW.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Cumsprite,

      Oh do put a sock in it Mr. Sprite. You know full well he’s not putting himself quite that much out there anymore. Which is probably why whatever he says about Winds that’s not on old info is scrutinized and judged as “trying to stay relevant”.

      And you don’t have a leg to stand upon when it comes to his NaB either. Not one single mention of Winds in years before the beginning of the year post.

      Look if you wanna bash I’m not here to stop. But fess up. You are mean spiritedly looking for anything to bitch. This is not on Martin. It’s all you and gang (you know who you are)

      It’s a fucking sad day. There. I said it. Suck it, buster!

      Super happy about the twist though I have no idea who it is .

        Quote  Reply

    143. Tywin of the Hill:
      Cumsprite,

      He wrote more Osha scenes because he wanted too. He wrote dragons into the story because he wanted too. (I doubt he would write 5 books about them if he didn’t like them.) I don’t know what a “reader insert” is, but if he made them, I’m sure it was because he liked them.
      But I doubt he would sign a legally binding document which would stop him from improvising or changing his books if he ever wished to do so. No one’s going to sue him if he decides to scrap Osha’s scenes from WoW.

      You aren’t even trying to move the goalposts! Good for you, brave Ser! But you are dead wrong. In the forward in one of his books (don’t have it in front of me) he names someone and thanks them for convincing him to put the dragons in. You see, Mr. Martin is a rational man and “dragons don’t make much sense” to him (LondonCon interview). As for Osha, he said he was going to do exactly as I wrote – he was impressed with what HBO did with the character and would try to give her some more attention in response. Reader inserts are where he took real-life fans and wrote (very minor) parts for them. None of these things are a criticism of the author – they get their ideas from everywhere. But for you to say nothing outside of Martin’s writing vacuum influences the writing is just amazing. As someone posted upthread, Groell influenced how ADWD was portioned. And, for those who have remembered to bring along their way-back machines, Martin credits Groell for convincing him to write more than four books in the series: seven books for seven kingdoms ring a bell? That was Groell.

      You want to double-down on your wrongness? Go ahead. I got lots more.

        Quote  Reply

    144. TormundsWoman:
      Cumsprite,

      Oh do put a sock in it Mr. Sprite. You know full well he’s not putting himself quite that much out there anymore.

      I haven’t noticed a marked decrease in the number of interviews or appearances he’s given over the past year when compared to previous ones, but I’ll take your word for it. Although I don’t seek them out like I once did: we crowd source this shit now so I can concentrate on spreading the love.

      You seem tense. Foot rub?

        Quote  Reply

    145. Cumsprite,

      You’ve just proved why Martin would never sign a deal like what Yaga said! If he wanted to give Osha more attention in the next book, wouldn’t that be a breach of the alleged contract? After all, that wasn’t part of the information he gave to Benioff and Weiss. And if Groell or another author gave him an idea for a twist, would he say “I love it, but I signed a contract”.
      Maybe “Martin has never let anyone affect the way he writes his story” was a wrong phrasing on my part. I should have thought that one through. Of course he can take other people’s ideas and change his story accordingly. If he didn’t, he could have perfectly signed that contract.
      I think next time I’m going to have to read everything I write twice before posting ?

        Quote  Reply

    146. Firannion,

      How the hell would i know,it’s not like i know you personally or have seen your face,on the interwebs it’s tough to figure out genders with confusing usernames .

        Quote  Reply

    147. Wylie,

      Oh, thank you! so “she” is not the character. I have been living with the secret hope I know something not everyone else knows. Hah, look at me. Trying to feel superior…

      Cumsprite,

      Foot rub?! Umm, no. How do I know you even wash your hands after “cleaning your anus”.

      Ooops, so sorry. See?! If you put yourself out there too much, you gotta take a few lumps. (I know who said that! It’s on the tip of my tongue!!!!)

        Quote  Reply

    148. flintstonewielder:
      Firannion,

      Firannion instead of Firannia, maybe ?
      Can happen to any of us, I´m afraid.

      True enough. I thought Mihnea was a woman for ages, on account of the -a ending. But clicking on my avatar does reveal my true gender. That’s Firannion the Bard, my RPG alter ego.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Firannion: True enough.I thought Mihnea was a woman for ages, on account of the -a ending.But clicking on my avatar does reveal my true gender.That’s Firannion the Bard, my RPG alter ego.

      So you roleplay, then? Any game in particular?

        Quote  Reply

    150. Mr Fixit: So you roleplay, then? Any game in particular?

      Not anymore. When my son was little and I was only working part-time, I spent a lot of time playing a text-based MUD game called Dragonrealms. I loved it because it was like being in a book that never ends, and you get to contribute threads to the plot and develop your character(s). Games with a lot of graphics and less room to exercise one’s imagination never interested me nearly as much.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Afeastfordances,

      GRRM brought this up right before season 5 aired.

      ***Spoilers for Season 1-5 and TWOW released chapters***

      Ergo, it would be someone who dies seasons 1-5 and not yet in the books:
      Stannis and his wife, Lady Stoneheart, Barriston, Jeyne/Telisa, Mance, Myrcella, that random Khal from the books who was killed by Drago, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Ser Meryn Trant, (possibly) The Hound, and several others. The list is actually pretty long

      My guess is Xaro Xhoan Daxos

        Quote  Reply

    152. Guys, it’s not Stannis. GRRM talked about this last year – including the dead thing IIRC – and at the time Stannis was still alive in the show too.

      It’s probably Khal whom-ever. Who is easily replaceable and therefore it can be done also in the show if they want to. It could be Barristan, interacting with any number of people. It could be

      Lady Stoneheart/Cat

      possibly interacting with Jaime.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Mihnea,

      I thought you were female for a while also hahaha

      I think my avatar gives me away HAHA
      we should all identify ourselves sometimes, especially the few that are always here.

      Firannion,

      I knew you were female by your name!

        Quote  Reply

    154. I do wish that GRRM would spend less time worrying about details surrounding minor characters and focus on getting the main characters where they need to be (both in terms of character evolution and plot lines) for the overarching story to make sense. Chances are good that whatever this “twist” is, most readers will not particularly care, and it will not make the final actions by Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya and Bran any easier to appreciate than they would be without this twist. Indeed, it’s more probable that if there is any effect, then it will be to distract readers! (My bet still will be on it being something that 9 readers in 10 will not be able to recount a week after they read the book.)

        Quote  Reply

    155. Chad Brick: If you go back and read GRRM’s post and extrapolate from his shifting deadlines, he should be done in a few months.

      Actually, if you extrapolate from his shifting deadlines, then you will conclude that he’ll never finish. He did not come close to finishing by the Halloween deadline, and he did not come close to finishing by the January 1 deadline.

      The fact that he decided to go with this twist suggests that things will be even further delayed. After all, if this twist is at all important, then he cannot just insert it: he will then have to go into other chapters and modify deeds, actions, thoughts, etc., so that they reflect a reality in which the twist happens as opposed to not happening. Otherwise, there is the distinct chance of plotholes.

      Of course, this in itself limits how big the twist can be: GRRM cannot go back and rewrite the older volumes. So, Stannis cannot now be something he was not in Kings, Swords or Dragons: if he was, then how he would interact with Davos, Jon and Asha should be different, and it’s too late for that. Still, it could well have effects on what he already had written for Winter.

      At this point, I really doubt that we’ll see Winter before the TV series is complete. If nothing else, then I suspect that critical and audience reaction to this season will lead GRRM to revise Winter (just as critical and audience reactions to the first 5 books correlated with revisions that B&W made).

        Quote  Reply

    156. I think Lady Stoneheart will be resurrecting Jon in the books. This could be the big twist, and I would love that type of full circle effect for Catelyn.

        Quote  Reply

    157. Rachel,

      That would be quite the travel for her! I did read this theory before actually. It would be a way for Cat to redeem the emotional torment and non acceptance she put Jon through. But I don’t think it works out that way. I don’t think LS is around to atone for Cat.

        Quote  Reply

    158. TormundsWoman: I don’t think LS is around to atone for Cat.

      Yeah…well put. I’ve wondered how LS would react if “she” came across one of Cat’s children. Would “she” implode? Is LS capable of empathy anymore? If so, could LS and Thoros extend the resurrection pattern/spell to a relative/child in mortal need?

        Quote  Reply

    159. While many of you have some interesting theories about who is involved in GRRM’s twist, they are incorrect. The twist will obviously involve Ser Willis Wode. It was a very dramatic divergence when the show killed him off.

        Quote  Reply

    160. Rachel: I think Lady Stoneheart will be resurrecting Jon in the books. This could be the big twist, and I would love that type of full circle effect for Catelyn.

      There is no way that GRRM could be doing something that radical. If he did, then he probably would have to rewrite almost the entirety of Winter, as the cascading ramifications would be huge!

      This also is another example of how what GRRM already has written does limit what he can write. GRRM put Mel on the Wall for a reason: and having hung that red gun, it needs to be fired. On the other hand, he has not put LS at the Wall, and he also failed to include her in either Crows or Dragons: and now it is too late to go back and rewrite those so that she is: 1) prominent; 2) expressing remorse about how she treated Jon; and, 3) anywhere near the Wall to do this sort of thing.

      Hodors Bastard: Is LS capable of empathy anymore? If so, could LS and Thoros extend the resurrection pattern/spell to a relative/child in mortal need?

      Who knows? LSH appears in all of two pages. We know nothing about her save who she was. Is she still that person? Is she still partially that person? If the latter, then what parts?

      Fans write a lot of things about LSH, but 99.9% of it comes from their imaginations, and not GRRM’s.

        Quote  Reply

    161. I finally finished reading all of the comments on this thread. Holy crap people. Shame…Shame….Shame. This is, IMO, the worst thread in the history of WotW/Original WiC.
      Seriously, I thought it was a fun update to last year’s comment about the twist. I expected to read comments, mostly pertaining to fan theories on who the twist is about. Not so much, I guess.

        Quote  Reply

    162. At this point, I really couldn’t care less.

      I’m sure I’ll read the book whenever it’s finished, although I certainly won’t feel compelled to rush right out and buy it.
      I know I’ll watch the show.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Myrcella will die long enough to be wrapped in a golden shroud but will be resurrected by R’hllor. She will choke out Cersei as the Valonqar and become queen of Westeros after riding a dragon and roasting the remaining Others. Mystery solved 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    164. On a sidenote….Every time TWoW is formally referenced in a major article, that silly “horn of winter” picture is attached to the text. It is everywhere in various media…in periodicals, other blogs, westeros, television spots…I’ve even seen it on GRRM’s notablog. Why is that? I don’t believe any art has been formally commissioned for TWoW. How did it get automatically linked to TWoW? Is the horn(s) of winter really going to be that significant in TWoW? Is the picture actually the ultimate spoiler (foreshadowing the compromise of walls and dragons alike)? Egad…I hope not. Maybe TWoW is actually going to be The Woodwinds of Winter. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    165. Hodors Bastard:
      On a sidenote….Every time TWoW is formally referenced in a major article, that silly “horn of winter” picture is attached to the text. It is everywhere in various media…in periodicals, other blogs, westeros, television spots…I’ve even seen it on GRRM’s notablog. Why is that? I don’t believe any art has been formally commissioned for TWoW. How did it get automatically linked to TWoW? Is the horn(s) of winter really going to be that significant in TWoW? Is the picture actually the ultimate spoiler (foreshadowing the compromise of walls and dragons alike)? Egad…I hope not. Maybe TWoW is actually going to be The Woodwinds of Winter.

      It’s humpty dumpty’s horn 😉

        Quote  Reply

    166. Nymeria Warrior Queen: At this point, I really couldn’t care less.

      I still am interested in reading it. However, there is a part of me that feels that it is utterly ridiculous that not only is a question first posed to me in 1997 (“Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”) not only is going unanswered until 2016, but that it’s then happening on TV rather than in a book! I mean, seriously, this series should have been completed years ago. As such, I am in the camp that is becoming less interested in whatever novels come out (if anymore come out) and more interested in what the show presents.

      The fact that GRRM is worrying about twists and turns for a character that almost certainly will not be important for the over-arching story or plots strikes me as emblematic of this. I feel that GRRM is in definite danger of losing the forest for the trees here!

      Raspberry: I’m pretty sure it’s Catelyn Stark/Lady Stoneheart. This kinda implies it:

      This really does not imply that at all. After all, GRRM also states that he wishes Arianne was on the show; therefore, clearly GRRM’s wishes to what is on the show need not be tied to this twist.

        Quote  Reply

    167. Firannion:
      SMH at the ‘show-wankers’ claiming that the show is canon now and the author’s vision is ‘irrelevant.’ These books will still be read when the HBO version seems as quaint and primitive as silent movies. New ‘screen’ versions will be made at least once a generation, for whatever new visual medium has arisen.

      Exactly!! Firannion, I agree 100%!!!

      For me it’s Benjen Stark! He will return to defeat WW and Bolton’s army once and for all!!

        Quote  Reply

    168. I don’t understand why some believe it’s LSH. As far as I’m understanding, he’s saying someone still alive in the books, but dead on the show.

      Books: Catelyn is dead.
      Show: Catelyn is dead.

      Books: LSH is….alive? Undead? It’s not Catelyn, it’s her corpse brought back to some sort of life.
      Show: There is no LSH.

      So how does that figure?

        Quote  Reply

    169. My money is on a Mance Rayder twist

      Part of me wonders if thematically the Pink Letter speaks of him “turning his skin” (as opposed to the whole cloak story being about him becoming a “turncloak”)

      In that sense he became “King beyond the Wall”, but he was also of the Wall etc. Point is I wonder if he becomes the Nights King!

        Quote  Reply

    170. It’s either Mance or Stannis. I’m betting on Mance.

      Of course this is all assuming Winds even comes out. I’m not convinced that it will.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Ghost’s Lunch: Part of me wonders if thematically the Pink Letter speaks of him “turning his skin” (as opposed to the whole cloak story being about him becoming a “turncloak”)

      That is possible. However, it also would be just fine for the show: there is nothing that GRRM could do with Mance that could not also be done with another character.

      Quite frankly, there really is nothing too big in the way of twists than GRRM can do for the overarching story or the overall tale. Remember, he’s got 5 books of entrenchment right now! Mance was not a huge player: but he was big enough that the twist has to be consistent with what we got in the two books featuring Mance.

      Peppe: For me it’s Benjen Stark! He will return to defeat WW and Bolton’s army once and for all!!

      Benjen is no more alive or dead on the show than he is in the books. The show could always bring him back. It would, of course, have to remind the audience of who he is after 5+ years: but that’s a completely separate issue!

        Quote  Reply

    172. It wouldn’t be Stannis, as the show didn’t technically show him actually dying. Personally I think show Stannis IS dead, but the fact that it was left somewhat open-ended eliminates him from the discussion.

      Mance and Jojen are both possibilities, but if I were to bet money, I’d put it on Ser Barristan.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Wimsey: Actually, if you extrapolate from his shifting deadlines, then you will conclude that he’ll never finish.He did not come close to finishing by the Halloween deadline, and he did not come close to finishing by the January 1 deadline.

      The fact that he decided to go with this twist suggests that things will be even further delayed.After all, if this twist is at all important, then he cannot just insert it: he will then have to go into other chapters and modify deeds, actions, thoughts, etc., so that they reflect a reality in which the twist happens as opposed to not happening.Otherwise, there is the distinct chance of plotholes.

      Of course, this in itself limits how big the twist can be: GRRM cannot go back and rewrite the older volumes.So, Stannis cannot now be something he was not in Kings, Swords or Dragons: if he was, then how he would interact with Davos, Jon and Asha should be different, and it’s too late for that.Still, it could well have effects on what he already had written for Winter.

      At this point, I really doubt that we’ll see Winter before the TV series is complete.If nothing else, then I suspect that critical and audience reaction to this season will lead GRRM to revise Winter (just as critical and audience reactions to the first 5 books correlated with revisions that B&W made).

      But his estimated time to finish did shrink between the two missed deadlines, implying that he got something done, at roughly half or so the pace he intended.

      I agree that the twist has limits. He cannot unwrite the first five books of course! However it also appears to be something he has long been considering, so to the extent that he does need to re-write anything earlier in TWOW, one would think he knows specifically what this is. On the other hand, he may have been leaning “pro-twist” and written the earlier parts that way in the first place. Or perhaps he wrote the “pro-twist” clues and background in such a way that it could be left in place regardless of which choice he made later, effectively serving as a red herring if he decided against twist. Or perhaps he has already written both variants of the few key passages in earlier parts of the book, and doesn’t need to do anything.

      In any case, his time estimates would have included the twist conundrum, so I see no reason to think it would cause significant delays.

        Quote  Reply

    174. I’d be fine with everyone except LSH. It’s the lowest point of the books and I’m grateful the show stayed far away from it.
      I think there’s a lot of room for twists with Barristan with all the intrigue going on in Mereen. Can you imagine how pissed would be the actor?

        Quote  Reply

    175. Pigeon:
      I don’t understand why some believe it’s LSH. As far as I’m understanding, he’s saying someone still alive in the books, but dead on the show.

      So how does that figure?

      We don’t have enough information to know for sure, considering how little screentime the character has, but IMO,

      LSH IS Catelyn, just as Beric is Beric.

      Specifically the way I’d put it is,

      In the books, Catelyn was killed and then resurrected.
      In the show, Catelyn is dead.
      There wasn’t a new person invented during the process…

        Quote  Reply

    176. HotPinkLipstick,

      I don’t agree that the writing in the books isn’t up to scratch. Sure it’s sometimes cliched but the Theon and Arya chapters are beautifully written and Theon is a much more interesting character in the books because of Martin’s writing. I’ve also noticed that Martin uses a lot of devices to prevent the reader from gaining insight into plot development that are not used by other writers. He is up there with the best in my opinion because he is doing his own thing.

        Quote  Reply

    177. swornsword,

      I’ve also noticed that Martin uses a lot of devices to prevent the reader from gaining insight into plot development that are not used by other writers.

      ….like what?

      My impression of his books is that I can sense the writer’s struggle. I can feel when the words come slowly and then when he warms up and is ‘in the zone’.

      I must say the “..trees rustle like living things”, kind of bothered me. No, it troubled me. I was deeply troubled by that line and had to set the book aside for a long while as I pondered it. But, then I braced myself and went back – though I was frightened – and the writer warmed up!

        Quote  Reply

    178. HotPinkLipstick,

      They certainly aren’t Shakespeare, or Hemingway, Heller, Vonnegut or even Stephen King.

      “…even Stephen King.” Oh no. No! That line right there just done did it! I love Stephie King! Never read Vonnegut and only a little Hemingway…but Stephie speaks to the dark hearts of us all, surely. Those other chumps, not so much.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Why do so many people seem to take what others say about someone else so personally? I guess the internet is one of those things–like driving, or sport–where it is harder not to take things personally, though it would be more enjoyable for everyone with some perspective. Then again, I guess some people enjoy high-conflict, argument for argument’s sake, drama-infused vitriol, just like some people eat animal liver on purpose.

      It’s all cake to me. Humans are hilaaaaarious.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Anon,

      Yes, I can see why that line might have troubled you. The devices I was referring to have to do with unreliable narration. On re-reading ACoK I noticed that in the Tyrion chapters there were a couple of examples where a character was about to impart some interesting information that would reveal something about a past event only to have Tyrion finish his narrative for him because he thought he knew what he was about to say. There is also an example of this in a Bran chapter where one of Bran’s advisors (can’t remember if it’s Maester Luwin or Ser Rodrik Cassel) predicts what a Northern lord is going to say. Also there’s his use of PoV characters. Most of them are quite young or have little status so are ignorant of past events. An exception to this is someone like Jaime, who knows a lot about very important events but interestingly doesn’t become a PoV character until about the third book and when he does he reveals something very interesting. You’ve also got to wonder why Ned didn’t continue as a PoV character. Aside from making the plot more interesting could it also have been because it would be difficult to not include in his continuing PoV information that would spoil plot points for the reader?

        Quote  Reply

    181. swornsword: The devices I was referring to have to do with unreliable narration.

      Very astute observations of GRRM’s narrative technique. He’s neither the first nor the only author to make excellent use of Rashomon-style rotating PoV to make points about subjectivity (Louise Erdrich and Peter Matthiessen leap to mind as novelists who are particularly adept at this). But the subtext that narrators are biased, information often false or misleading, popular beliefs often unfounded and conventional wisdom often unwise is a theme that GRRM introduces early on and reminds us of again and again and again, to a striking degree. Just because “It is known” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is so.

      And that, for me, is a big part of why these novels are so addictive. Reading (and rereading) them is almost an interactive exercise; it’s such a constant mental challenge to parse out what to accept as true and what not to. It’s always ego-boosting to “get there” ahead of some character and be proved right, but still lots of fun even when it takes forever to discover that some accepted premise is wrong and realize that you’ve had the wool pulled over your eyes by the author again. Then, on the reread, you can spot the signposts that you missed the first time around.

      Six years between volumes may be a bit excessive, but I actually think that having to wait with the rest of the fandom in between books (or seasons) makes it more fun. I like having the time to speculate, read up on people’s tinfoil theories, argue (nicely).

        Quote  Reply

    182. Seeing how GRRM believes in a concept as delicate as The Butterfly Effect in regards to narrative it seems to me this twist could have a potentially huge impact on the rest of the story.

        Quote  Reply

    183. Jon The Bastard:
      Seeing how GRRM believes in a concept as delicate as The Butterfly Effect in regards to narrative it seems to me this twist could have a potentially huge impact on the rest of the story.

      Or maybe not. Judging by GRRM’s words, it seems to me that he only recently decided to include that twist in the novel, so if it is some sort of a huge twist, he would have to heavily rewrite the story.

      Which character? Well, if it is significant twist I would say Barristan or maybe Mance. I don’t think it is Stannis because I really doubt he will survive Battle of Winterfell, which was supposed to be a climax of ADWD. And other characters like Rakharo, Irri, Grenn or Pyp have very minor roles.

        Quote  Reply

    184. Firannion,

      Yes, of course you are right: he is not doing anything particularly unusual in using alternating PoVs. Love what you wrote about his writing being addictive. You have described exactly my experience on reading and re-reading the two Ice and Fire series, ie the Egg and Dunk novellas as well. Thank you too or arguing so politely.

        Quote  Reply

    185. swornsword,

      That’s very interesting, swornsword. I’m going to check out each of those to see exactly what you mean.

      I don’t know if it’s the same thing, but each time Shae(show) was about to say where she came from, someone would interrupt her before she could speak. Then Cersai assumed from Shae’s accent that she was Lorathi.

        Quote  Reply

    186. Chad Brick: But his estimated time to finish did shrink between the two missed deadlines, implying that he got something done, at roughly half or so the pace he intended.

      GRRM’s estimated times to finish mean nothing. He was supposed to have it done by the end of October. He didn’t. He was supposed to have it done 2 months later. He didn’t: and he acknowledged that he still had a lot to write.

      It is now 2 months since the 2nd deadline. And guess what? It seems that he’s now going ahead with some twist to some minor character! And, yes, this will mean re-writing: he could not have been writing the other parts “pro-twist” without setting himself up to have to do revisions once he accepted the twist.

      Indeed, my bet is that the scenario is more like this. GRRM thought of his twist. He did not pursue it because he desperately wanted to get the manuscripts submitted before the end of 2015. That didn’t happen. Now, there is absolutely no meaningful deadline: Winds of Winter is going to be televised before it is novelized. Moreover, GRRM might justify adding the twist now because, well, he’s got to offer something new: otherwise, why buy the novel? He now can go back and edit the other chapters to take into account this twist. But one upshot of that is that he might now be further from completing the novel than he was 2 months ago.

      Anon: I must say the “..trees rustle like living things”, kind of bothered me.

      swornsword: Yes, I can see why that line might have troubled you.

      Er, why? Trees are living things. They rustle do to wind all of the time. That’s part of what makes being in a forest so neat.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Firannion: He’s neither the first nor the only author to make excellent use of Rashomon-style rotating PoV to make points about subjectivity (Louise Erdrich and Peter Matthiessen leap to mind as novelists who are particularly adept at this).

      heh, and yet many people miss that! Indeed, an idea relevant to this thread was fueled by fans not recognizing subjectivity! The idea that Jeyne Westerling was pregnant with Robb’s child and that she was snuck away was in part justified by Catelyn observing that Jeyne had good birthing hips but Jaime deeming the Westerling girl he met as having thin hips. WAIT! One woman cannot have both good birthing hips AND thin hips! ERGO! That was not Jeyne! Except…. one woman can have good birthing hips AND have hips deemed thin by someone who’s idea of proper feminine hips are on a woman twice as old and who has given birth 3 times.

      Other readers have concluded that, in fact, GRRM made a “mistake.” That is, both Catelyn and Jaime saw the same young woman, but GRRM erred by having Catelyn and Jaime reach different conclusions about that young woman. In both cases, people were failing to consider that GRRM deliberately had Catelyn and Jaime subjectively arrive at different impressions about the same pair of hips. After all, real people do the same.

      (I remember as a shallow 19 year old arguing about whether a particular young woman had a “nice butt” or a “fat butt.” It was the same butt, and it was not an editorial mistake by some overlord. It was, however, pretty shameful in retrospect, particularly as I was the “fat butt” proponent. But, back then I dated women who would have needed C-sections to give birth to a kitten….)

        Quote  Reply

    188. Hodors Bastard:
      On a sidenote….Every time TWoW is formally referenced in a major article, that silly “horn of winter” picture is attached to the text. It is everywhere in various media…in periodicals, other blogs, westeros, television spots…I’ve even seen it on GRRM’s notablog. Why is that? I don’t believe any art has been formally commissioned for TWoW. How did it get automatically linked to TWoW? Is the horn(s) of winter really going to be that significant in TWoW? Is the picture actually the ultimate spoiler (foreshadowing the compromise of walls and dragons alike)? Egad…I hope not. Maybe TWoW is actually going to be The Woodwinds of Winter.

      That is (for the moment anyway) the official cover art for Winds of Winter.

      GRRM says so here
      http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html?thread=23539807#t23539807

        Quote  Reply

    189. Anon,

      Seems like the same thing to me; thanks for that insight. I think Tyrion also misinterprets Shae and her motives. He assumes he is just an end to a means for her whereas it might be that she did love him, as did his wife. Seems Tyrion is not as smart as he thinks he is.

        Quote  Reply

    190. Wimsey,

      That’s a really good point. And I think a lot of tin foil theories originate from all the subjectivity in his PoVs. For example, there’s one about Jeyne being swapped with her sister. It uses the hips assessment as a justification.

        Quote  Reply

    191. swornsword,

      Yeah, I think that is part of the “Jeyne is pregnant” conjecture: Jaime met Jeyne’s sister.

      What I find funny is that another justification for this is that the story needs a “lost heir” and that Robb’s son would fill that gaping void well. Why Rickon does not fill it, I do not quite understand!

        Quote  Reply

    192. mau,

      Really? He is the creator of this world! And you say tha? George has of the power to do whatever he wants in his work!!! Game of thrones exist because of him! Show some of respect!

        Quote  Reply

    193. Conan: That is (for the moment anyway) the official cover art for Winds of Winter.

      Hah! I missed that comment on his blog. Thx! I hope it does change, unless GRRM is indeed implying that Victarion and Sam will change the game with their horns in hand.

        Quote  Reply

    194. No matter how loud show fans cry, Game of Thrones exist because George RR Martin created the Westeros universe . For sure a lot of casual fans got into the books because of the show but this show does not even exist without the books. Period.

        Quote  Reply

    195. He said he’s a slow writer, ha, I doubt he will ever finish the book. I can read every ASOIAF plus every Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings novels over again before he finishes.

        Quote  Reply

    196. My bet is on Barristan Selmy , and I would love for it to be Stannis The Mofo’in Mannis! They cant possibly kill that guy in the books. If it does end up happening, please do not let it be dumb-ass Brienne! I hated that in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    197. The Bastard,

      There is show cannon and GRRM cannon. Despite the show outpacing the books, that does not give them official cannon status. The books will always trump the show.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *